The Tucker Carlson Show - Vivek Ramaswamy： Trump’s Sweeping Victory, & What It Means for the Future of Government Bureaucracy

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00:00:30.420 So what it is now, a little over 24 hours after Donald Trump won the majority of the popular vote,

00:00:37.840 about half the Latino vote, overwhelming majority of the electoral college,

00:00:45.240 just all three branches of government.

00:00:48.220 Amazing, yeah.

00:00:49.520 Both houses of the Congress and the executive branch.

00:00:52.680 How did that happen?

00:00:54.000 I think it happened because it was, A, a rejection of what the modern left has put on offer,

00:01:00.120 which in some ways was a great favor to the rise of this country.

00:01:03.360 You need something to actually provoke a rebellion like the one that we had.

00:01:07.860 That's right.

00:01:08.340 I also think that it is a feature of the leader who actually led this entire movement.

00:01:12.800 It was very personal to Donald Trump, too.

00:01:14.700 Yes.

00:01:14.880 And I think that's one of the things I've appreciated is that I wrote this like the morning after the lecture,

00:01:20.720 the afternoon after, and it just felt right to me.

00:01:24.780 He's not actually...

00:01:25.920 The thing that I've learned as I've gotten to know him over the last year much better is

00:01:29.800 he's not an ideologue or a policy wonk, and he doesn't pretend to be one.

00:01:34.320 Right.

00:01:34.800 But he is a badass, actually.

00:01:36.560 He's definitely a badass.

00:01:37.860 Welcome to the Tucker Carlson Show.

00:01:50.540 We bring you stories that have not been showcased anywhere else,

00:01:54.640 and they're not censored, of course, because we're not gatekeepers.

00:01:57.900 We are honest brokers here to tell you what we think you need to know and do it honestly.

00:02:03.160 Check out all of our content at tuckercarlson.com.

00:02:06.160 Here's the episode.

00:02:06.820 The nation needs a badass as its commander-in-chief right now,

00:02:11.820 and democracy kind of works, actually, in the end.

00:02:15.520 Like, the people really knew what they needed,

00:02:18.720 and they showed up in droves to put the right person in office.

00:02:22.880 And so I just think it is kind of one of these rare inspiring moments in history

00:02:27.900 where the people knew what they wanted.

00:02:29.980 They would not be shaken from their will.

00:02:32.420 He would not be shaken from his will.

00:02:33.820 And I loved being in Mar-a-Lago that night where it was just kind of interesting

00:02:37.760 where everybody else is, you know, myself, too, included,

00:02:40.560 is just, like, really joyous about what's happening.

00:02:42.780 And I'm sitting next to Donald Trump, and he's sitting there, and he's just,

00:02:46.120 yep, this is exactly how it was supposed to be.

00:02:48.580 Wait till it comes in.

00:02:49.760 All right.

00:02:50.400 Now we're going to the convention center.

00:02:51.680 And this is where I was destined to be and what I was put here to do.

00:02:55.160 And I think the people of this country right now want somebody who has that level of self-confidence

00:03:01.340 and conviction to bring that back for the country.

00:03:04.000 And so, anyway, I just think it was kind of a beautiful moment of democracy working.

00:03:08.160 And it goes beyond policy.

00:03:09.160 It's just, like, the persona of the country is actually what we recovered.

00:03:12.540 Yeah, I mean, I've spent eight years watching Republicans kiss Donald Trump's ass in public.

00:03:17.920 Yeah.

00:03:18.040 And I always feel a little nauseous.

00:03:19.460 I love Trump just personally because I know him well.

00:03:22.420 But I hate hearing people say, it's all fake.

00:03:25.880 It is.

00:03:26.520 It's performative.

00:03:27.500 But now, ever since he got shot, I just realized not only do I really like Trump,

00:03:34.320 I find him amusing and all, I really respect Trump.

00:03:37.260 And I mean that when I'm saying it.

00:03:39.100 I'm not, I have no reason to kiss his ass.

00:03:41.040 Yeah.

00:03:41.220 And I mean that.

00:03:42.240 And I felt that that night.

00:03:44.800 I think, actually, for me, that's been a bit of a journey as well.

00:03:48.200 Of course.

00:03:48.880 I didn't know him as well as you knew him anyway.

00:03:50.180 But at this point in time, yeah, he's the right guy to lead the country.

00:03:53.680 Exactly.

00:03:54.300 He's actually the right guy to lead the country.

00:03:55.040 You go through phases of taking, maybe I'm being too honest, but, you know, taking Trump seriously.

00:04:00.160 Trump is eccentric.

00:04:00.900 I mean, that's just a fact.

00:04:02.940 And, you know, he got elected in 16, not accidentally.

00:04:08.280 There are reasons he got elected, but he said to himself many times, and it's true, I was there, he did not expect to win.

00:04:13.740 And it was kind of this, you know, on the road with the Grateful Dead kind of thing, you know, shambolic, you know what I mean?

00:04:21.780 This did not feel that way at all.

00:04:23.420 It felt purposeful.

00:04:24.580 It felt like he was living out his destiny and the nation's destiny.

00:04:29.240 It felt very heavy.

00:04:31.260 That's how it felt that night.

00:04:32.280 It was just like a conviction that this is my destiny.

00:04:34.860 This is the nation's destiny.

00:04:36.600 And America has this great tradition, by the way.

00:04:38.260 We believe in our own manifest destiny.

00:04:39.540 Yes.

00:04:39.860 It's just like we had no reason to believe it.

00:04:41.580 We have no, you know, basically we have no logic behind it.

00:04:44.620 It's just that we know that we're born to be the greatest nation that sets an example for everybody else of what's possible for human capacity.

00:04:50.760 Yes.

00:04:51.040 This is the country that does it.

00:04:52.200 And we had no reason to believe that other than the fact that we do.

00:04:54.600 And I think that that's the kind of leader we need right now to bring that back.

00:04:57.460 And that's Donald Trump as a person.

00:04:58.700 So in some ways, Trump's story is America's story.

00:05:00.920 Trump's comeback is now hopefully America's comeback.

00:05:02.980 And I actually just think it's going to play out that way in the next couple of years.

00:05:07.000 The national spirit's going to be back.

00:05:09.200 You'll see it in the composition of the electorate, by the way.

00:05:11.500 A lot of young people.

00:05:12.720 That was probably the biggest demographic shift.

00:05:14.840 It was the biggest, yeah.

00:05:15.140 Just came in a tidal wave of force, which I was particularly passionate about seeing this time around.

00:05:20.060 Me too.

00:05:20.320 I totally agree.

00:05:21.080 And, you know, I think it's just this moment where we're going through a great kind of spiritual.

00:05:28.460 I don't mean spiritual in the religious sense here.

00:05:29.880 I mean, the civic sense, but a spiritual revival of American identity.

00:05:34.520 And like that was the pinnacle of what we saw on Tuesday night.

00:05:39.020 There was a moment, I think right around the time he was shot and Elon endorsed him within moments.

00:05:43.920 Yes.

00:05:44.260 Which I think was looking back, you know, a pivot point, the whole thing.

00:05:49.260 But where I think, or I myself felt this way, like, why are we on the defensive, people who vote for Donald Trump?

00:05:55.960 Why are we embarrassed?

00:05:56.780 There was this very successful effort to make people feel ashamed for supporting Trump.

00:06:01.480 And it worked for, I mean, eight years anyway.

00:06:04.380 And then in one moment, it just evaporated.

00:06:06.660 And you saw, like, 22-year-old sorority girls.

00:06:10.480 That's right.

00:06:11.180 You know, with Trump hats.

00:06:12.680 And you're like, wait a second.

00:06:14.380 No one's embarrassed about supporting Trump anymore.

00:06:16.700 And they're wearing a Trump hat in midtown Manhattan.

00:06:18.560 Totally.

00:06:18.880 Who would do that?

00:06:19.780 Nobody would have done that three years ago.

00:06:21.560 I think it's a beautiful thing for the country.

00:06:24.020 I mean, it started a little bit with, you saw it in the business elite community.

00:06:27.200 I mean, Elon was, endorsement was obviously huge.

00:06:29.300 But I think this has been percolating for a little while.

00:06:32.120 I was really, probably the thing I was most gratified by after the election is the next morning, the number of either calls or messages I got from real serious business leaders, billionaires in different domains or whatever.

00:06:44.060 They didn't have to do this, but a few of them shared with me, look, I think you were an important part of giving me the permission to support Donald Trump.

00:06:52.180 100%.

00:06:52.460 Or give me the permission to at least stand up against whatever left-wing orthodoxy in a way that they couldn't have.

00:06:57.520 And I think a lot of other people played important roles in that as well.

00:07:00.040 I mean, Elon probably played the biggest role in giving people that permission.

00:07:02.660 No, but you're from exactly that world.

00:07:04.300 And like, just to be super blunt, you're from, you have the credentials that mark a member of that class.

00:07:10.720 Yeah, which matter to some people in terms of giving them the permission.

00:07:14.040 Well, it's our whole system is based on them, right?

00:07:16.500 And so, and JD to some extent is like this, David Sachs and Elon above all, but you're definitely in that world.

00:07:25.120 And, you know, they made a concerted effort to make certain that people like you would never admit to liking Trump.

00:07:32.420 That's right.

00:07:32.860 And even it's liking Trump and standing for a rejection of the left-wing orthodoxy of the last, you know, four or five years that reached a fever pitch and peak.

00:07:42.660 So I had to step down from my job.

00:07:43.980 You and I first met after I stepped down from my job as a biotech CEO.

00:07:47.840 And, you know, I wrote my first book.

00:07:49.240 For me, that was actually kind of cathartic.

00:07:50.960 And then I just wanted other people to be able to experience that as well, to be able to like spread the possibility of what it feels to actually speak your mind in the open.

00:07:59.040 And it's like a, it's like a liberating experience.

00:08:03.400 It's like a deep personal sense, a liberating experience.

00:08:06.320 And I actually just wanted more people to be able to experience that.

00:08:09.700 What's the point of having a billion dollars if you can't even express your opinion in public?

00:08:13.420 I totally agree.

00:08:14.240 But now I think that that's mostly, it's like actually mostly behind us.

00:08:18.180 Can I just push a little bit on that point though?

00:08:20.480 I mean, you and I talked a lot before you ran for president.

00:08:24.180 And I remember thinking, you know, most people imagine that if you make a lot of money, you made a lot of money young, that that gives you the freedom to say whatever you want.

00:08:33.740 But of course, the opposite turns out to be true.

00:08:35.600 Oh, it's totally the opposite.

00:08:36.380 Right.

00:08:36.640 So the more you have, there is no FU money.

00:08:38.540 That's right.

00:08:38.920 There's only FU poverty.

00:08:40.260 The richer you get, the more vested you are in the current system, the more you have to lose.

00:08:44.220 And so I did think you were very unusual in that you made all this money young and you're like, yeah, I'm kind of happy to, first of all, stop making money for a while.

00:08:54.140 You didn't seem addicted to it.

00:08:55.600 No.

00:08:55.820 They all get addicted to it.

00:08:57.020 No.

00:08:57.480 You know what I mean?

00:08:58.240 We actually spent it.

00:08:59.120 Some of it.

00:09:00.260 Right.

00:09:00.920 You blew a lot of it.

00:09:02.560 Yeah, exactly.

00:09:03.000 There was something great about that.

00:09:04.380 But why did, why were you different from like everyone else you went to Yale Law School with other than JD?

00:09:11.120 All of our classmates, you know, it was just the two of us.

00:09:13.480 I can tell you there's some, I won't even, I won't even tell you about the email chains where they still have the class email list.

00:09:18.860 There's a lot of funny stuff that goes on.

00:09:20.360 They've lost their minds over myself and JD.

00:09:22.280 Oh, have they really?

00:09:22.780 Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:09:23.340 It's actually, it's actually kind of hilarious.

00:09:25.480 You guys were in the same class?

00:09:27.240 Yeah, we're in the same class.

00:09:28.380 Me, Osher, JD, we're all classmates.

00:09:29.980 And my wife was at med school at the same time.

00:09:31.660 So we were all, we were all friendly.

00:09:33.100 Where was she at med school?

00:09:34.100 Yeah.

00:09:34.940 Yeah.

00:09:36.040 It's hilarious.

00:09:36.940 Which is really funny.

00:09:37.660 You all misused your credentials against the system.

00:09:40.760 That bestowed them.

00:09:41.440 So I have to ask you to pause.

00:09:43.960 So you're on the Yale Law School, which for those who don't follow us, is the most prestigious law school in the United States.

00:09:50.260 I think it's fair to say, but also probably the most insane in some ways.

00:09:53.040 Yeah, yeah.

00:09:53.320 I think all of those things are fair.

00:09:54.720 Yeah.

00:09:55.140 So what's the, what's the email chain line?

00:09:57.100 So each class just has their own, has their own like kind of like listserv where they, where they all stay in touch.

00:10:03.160 And after the Springfield stuff, right?

00:10:05.720 So people were going, people were going totally nuts.

00:10:08.960 Eating, eating the cats.

00:10:10.040 Yeah.

00:10:10.300 Yeah.

00:10:10.420 Or, you know, eating the pets, right?

00:10:11.840 Yeah.

00:10:11.960 So they were going totally nuts.

00:10:13.420 And then there was this like long thread of what charity people were going to give to in Springfield, a town they otherwise would never visit, never have heard of, never have given second care to, to say, okay, here's what we're actually going to do to help this community.

00:10:26.260 And they started to have everyone piling in.

00:10:28.220 Well, I'm going to make my donation and I'm going to make my donation here.

00:10:30.880 And it was, it was so nauseating, but there was actually a very keen effort to get the New York Times to report on it.

00:10:37.140 So the New York Times did report on that.

00:10:38.500 Of course, the New York Times has their own agenda in wanting to report on this because it's designed to actually make money.

00:10:43.300 To particular causes in Springfield to virtue signal the fact that we're not on the J.D. Vance, Donald Trump side of this.

00:10:52.220 And as Yale Law School, as fellow Yale Law School alums who came from that same class, we're going to actually make a concerted donation to send a different signal that we're on the side.

00:11:01.900 But you and J.D. are actually from Ohio.

00:11:04.020 Yeah, actually.

00:11:04.660 Yeah, yeah.

00:11:05.260 Actually, I actually spent a lot of my youth in Springfield.

00:11:07.240 I actually know, I actually know a lot about this.

00:11:08.860 I'm tempted to pull up the email that I, that I sent.

00:11:11.780 So I sent an email to the group.

00:11:13.240 I never, I haven't commented on this list is serve in like five years, like I've never, or 10 years probably.

00:11:17.640 I haven't posted a single thing, but I kind of entertain myself watching this stuff from time to time.

00:11:22.220 So I actually also went to Springfield myself.

00:11:25.520 Actually, so this is a, well, let's rewind back.

00:11:27.640 So when all this was playing out, I said, I kind of want to go to Springfield and check this out.

00:11:30.320 I have a lot of family that's lived there in the past.

00:11:32.420 I have some family there who lives there now.

00:11:34.300 I spent a lot of my youth there.

00:11:36.060 There's this place, there's a, there's a sub place that I used to go to.

00:11:39.400 Like, you know, when I used to play tennis at Wittenberg every summer, which is the university in Springfield.

00:11:43.800 So I've spent a lot of time there growing up.

00:11:46.320 So I said, I live like 50 minutes from there right now in Columbus.

00:11:49.000 I grew up in Cincinnati.

00:11:50.100 I live in Columbus.

00:11:51.160 It's Springfield's literally on the way right in between.

00:11:53.780 Like, let me just go check it out.

00:11:55.240 So I just was having dinner with my wife and a couple of friends in Columbus.

00:11:58.180 And I just put out a tweet.

00:11:59.120 I said, I'm going to Springfield.

00:12:01.120 Want to see what's happening.

00:12:02.500 See it for myself.

00:12:04.180 And no plan for like an event or anything like that.

00:12:06.440 But some guy then replies and says, well, I have an event space.

00:12:08.540 It can hold 375 people.

00:12:10.160 We show up in Springfield.

00:12:11.180 This is what, like a month or month or two ago when all of this played out.

00:12:14.580 And, you know, this is 375 people.

00:12:16.320 It could hold 2,000 people show up, but they couldn't hold 2,000.

00:12:19.220 And so the rest were lined up outside.

00:12:20.840 And people just wanted to be heard.

00:12:22.540 Did I see evidence of cats and dogs being eaten?

00:12:24.680 I didn't see evidence of that.

00:12:25.940 What I did see evidence of was a woman being chased out of a store with a machete.

00:12:29.200 Her daughter, by an illegal immigrant who was in this country, which didn't get reported on by the news at all,

00:12:33.340 but was a function of a woman who actually came and told that story of her daughter,

00:12:36.280 who was literally being chased with a machete out of a grocery store,

00:12:39.860 called the police, and the police didn't show up for hours.

00:12:42.340 And they didn't follow up with an investigation either.

00:12:44.540 So I thought people deserved to hear.

00:12:45.840 The police did nothing.

00:12:46.840 That's what she said.

00:12:47.500 And I have every reason to believe her.

00:12:48.780 So anyway, against that backdrop, I also wanted to do something positive for the community.

00:12:53.700 Having shown up in Springfield, there's obviously a strain on local resources.

00:12:57.540 So I wanted to make a donation.

00:12:59.600 And as you said, I've lived the American dream.

00:13:01.300 I wanted to make a $100,000 donation, right?

00:13:03.680 And so to help, for my family, that's an easy thing we were able to do to help a local community.

00:13:08.880 Where's the strain?

00:13:10.160 So we found where the local strain points are, access to local primary care.

00:13:14.260 And we tried to make a donation in conjunction with my trip,

00:13:18.020 but the organization did not want to accept the donation that our family was about to give.

00:13:23.260 So they've talked about Springfield.

00:13:24.700 We need help.

00:13:25.880 We need all the people who can to help support the community.

00:13:29.420 And yet here is somebody who is living in Ohio, has lived the American dream.

00:13:33.460 I want to actually use a small portion of what this country has given us

00:13:37.660 to help a community that's important to me in the area of health care,

00:13:41.440 where there were a lot of strained resources,

00:13:42.860 in part because of the large numbers of people who've been moved to that community.

00:13:50.080 And I didn't even have the ability to help the community that way.

00:13:53.540 Why?

00:13:54.660 They didn't provide a great explanation.

00:13:56.980 Should they turn down a $100,000 donation?

00:13:59.060 Yeah, yeah.

00:13:59.800 Well, who would do that?

00:14:01.260 I mean, an administrator, I suppose.

00:14:03.700 But nonetheless, I can only...

00:14:07.660 I can only assume, right?

00:14:09.280 I can...

00:14:09.760 I would say I heavily doubt that if I were, you know,

00:14:14.680 Sherrod Brown or something like that,

00:14:16.340 that they would have turned down a similar donation in a time of need.

00:14:20.840 So anyway, I talked about all this when I visited Springfield.

00:14:22.740 But afterwards, I just...

00:14:24.220 I told people that I was going to help support Springfield.

00:14:27.280 So I decided to...

00:14:28.600 I wanted to follow through on that.

00:14:29.720 So we found a couple of other charitable causes to donate to,

00:14:33.500 you know, in totaling $100,000 to help Springfield.

00:14:35.640 And one of them was a crisis pregnancy center.

00:14:38.140 I'm pro-life and we wanted to at least help people get to, you know, strains on the system.

00:14:44.020 It's a different area of healthcare where we thought there were strains on a system.

00:14:47.260 I actually surveyed a lot of people in Ohio and in Springfield privately who I knew,

00:14:50.600 where could I have an impact?

00:14:51.680 And they gave us this as a resource.

00:14:54.080 So anyway, to bring this back to the original story,

00:14:56.780 we have this law school listserv where they've made a donation to...

00:15:02.200 I think it was like...

00:15:03.460 It was a left-leaning group that had a lot of woke stuff on their front page.

00:15:07.980 I can't tell you which exactly one it was.

00:15:09.840 You know, DEI all plastered all over wherever it needs to be.

00:15:12.600 And they made the donation.

00:15:13.620 They got a bunch of people to sign on.

00:15:15.940 And every time somebody donated, they would reply all and say,

00:15:18.880 I have also donated.

00:15:20.040 And there was a certain pride and sanctimony in that.

00:15:22.860 They got the New York Times to report on it.

00:15:24.500 They got MSNBC to pick it up.

00:15:25.800 So there's a lot of media around.

00:15:27.380 That's crazy.

00:15:28.400 Comparatively, not quite as much money being raised even, but that's beside the point.

00:15:33.340 And so I'm on this list having to sort of see my, you know,

00:15:37.380 inbox repeatedly flooded with every other time somebody made a donation.

00:15:41.040 So I just sent a note because maybe there's people who have a different point of view

00:15:44.180 from supporting exactly the cause they put up.

00:15:46.840 So I included a link saying, you know, for those who want to support Springfield,

00:15:50.620 here are some other alternative causes that you might wish to support.

00:15:53.520 My family and I were pleased to support the community.

00:15:57.140 They lost it with respect to a crisis pregnancy center.

00:16:00.320 Well, they didn't like that?

00:16:00.700 Actually, they didn't like it very much.

00:16:01.860 What did they say?

00:16:02.860 You know, I think they called it a, they saw it as a insult, actually.

00:16:10.540 They felt personally insulted that I was going to exploit their good feeling about Springfield

00:16:19.140 and the attention they wanted to draw by supporting it, by offering a very different kind of cause.

00:16:23.060 But a beautiful thing happened because this goes to the same trend you and I are talking about.

00:16:26.700 There were actually a lot of my classmates who I know lean left of center who then came out

00:16:30.180 and were just like, well, have you ever considered the fact that we might also have

00:16:33.360 classmates who have a different point of view on these questions?

00:16:35.760 And you may not just want to be donating to one particular side of this cause.

00:16:39.620 And there was just a debate amongst them.

00:16:40.900 So I didn't, I didn't really get further involved in this.

00:16:43.480 I rarely post on that list.

00:16:45.000 That was just a two-liner that I had to share to offer an alternative.

00:16:48.260 Have they attacked you and JD personally on the list?

00:16:50.100 You know, I don't read, I don't read most of the emails.

00:16:52.440 I think, I think there have been a lot of unfriendly things said.

00:16:56.500 Yes.

00:16:56.920 So you've got to wonder about that whole world.

00:16:59.380 Yeah.

00:16:59.600 I mean, so Trump went to Penn, JD went to Yale.

00:17:03.300 So you still have two guys with Ivy League degrees.

00:17:05.760 Yeah.

00:17:06.140 In the top two jobs.

00:17:07.040 By the way, I don't think there's any, far from being shame in that,

00:17:11.660 like I'm very, I had a great experience at Harvard and Yale and we learned a lot of stuff.

00:17:14.980 Yeah.

00:17:15.240 Think independently.

00:17:16.020 I got a better education because of a lot of these people leaning left.

00:17:19.660 You get questioned more than the average person.

00:17:21.720 I bet that's right.

00:17:22.560 Yeah.

00:17:22.840 But there's also over the past several years, there's just been a lot of evidence that those

00:17:28.860 schools, you know, probably aren't good for a lot of the kids.

00:17:32.740 They're not the same places they were even.

00:17:34.140 The weaker kids who go there.

00:17:35.260 I mean, you're obviously, you've got a strong personality.

00:17:37.040 You know what you think.

00:17:37.720 You're not dependent on other people's approval.

00:17:40.300 Obviously, you don't seem to care that much.

00:17:43.600 But, you know, most people, young people really do care what the herd thinks.

00:17:46.940 And for those kids, like a lot of them get destroyed and become completely irrational

00:17:50.760 and into the, you know, the witchcraft of transgenderism or whatever.

00:17:55.060 I mean, they become like not really functioning people.

00:17:57.360 And you just wonder, like, how long does the prestige attach to those institutions, particularly

00:18:03.440 in, say, China, which keeps them afloat?

00:18:05.420 Yeah.

00:18:05.700 Maybe not Yale, but like below Yale, a lot of these schools are dependent on rich Chinese.

00:18:11.200 Yeah.

00:18:11.300 So, like, when does that end?

00:18:13.880 When do we stop genuflecting before these places?

00:18:16.340 Either they're going to massively change what they are and what they represent, or they're

00:18:22.020 going to go the way of the dustbin of history.

00:18:23.760 They are, right?

00:18:24.660 They kind of are.

00:18:25.220 So, the thing is, there's a difference between even these places now versus 20 years ago.

00:18:29.500 It's just like not the same place in the same institution.

00:18:32.220 Harvard, Yale, always lean left, always have had a very, you know, certainly self-important

00:18:38.500 view of themselves.

00:18:39.340 That's always been the case.

00:18:40.180 But they were institutions, certainly when I was there.

00:18:42.640 I can tell you from experience where alternative ideas were tolerated.

00:18:45.880 There was good debate.

00:18:46.920 I actually learned a lot from being pushed by classmates who had different points of view

00:18:50.200 than mine.

00:18:50.820 I evolved in some of my views.

00:18:52.020 It's a beautiful thing.

00:18:52.720 That's what's supposed to happen through a supposedly liberal arts education.

00:18:56.280 That is not the institution of Harvard or Yale or countless others like them that exist

00:19:01.180 today.

00:19:01.840 There's something dramatic has changed as they have lost their North Stars no longer, at

00:19:07.620 least dated as of, let's just say, six months to a year ago.

00:19:10.800 Maybe a lot's going to change.

00:19:12.560 We're no longer committed to the pursuit of knowledge, and we're committed to the pursuit

00:19:15.800 of affirmative social goals.

00:19:17.900 Like, Harvard's top goal, it seems, is to drive social change in the world rather than the

00:19:22.540 to actually educate their students.

00:19:24.240 Yale has completely abandoned the idea of free speech, that the expression of certain ideas

00:19:28.320 is itself constitutes an act of violence in a way that they no longer would tolerate

00:19:33.700 on their campus.

00:19:34.620 I think all of that's going to have to change because otherwise you're going to actually

00:19:36.940 produce a bunch of, let's just say, effete graduates that aren't going to go on to actually

00:19:41.240 accomplish very much, which gives the next generation very little incentive to want to go

00:19:45.500 through those institutions in the first place.

00:19:47.740 And so, you know, what's going to happen, you know, either they're going to become increasingly

00:19:52.540 irrelevant and go through this process of elegant decay that they're in right now, either they

00:19:58.380 evolve or die.

00:19:59.580 Those are the two choices I would say.

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00:23:42.980 So what are the effects of Trump's win?

00:23:48.660 Hmm.

00:23:48.860 I think it's a renewal of national self-confidence, actually.

00:23:52.640 I think that we're going to be more sure of ourselves as Americans.

00:23:58.540 I think we already are.

00:23:59.480 I think that the idea that people are, you know,

00:24:01.800 a lot of people who would have either felt uncomfortable saying they supported Donald Trump

00:24:05.520 or didn't even think they did, but now realize that they actually value what he represents,

00:24:10.520 have a greater sense of conviction in themselves,

00:24:12.680 have a greater sense of conviction in America.

00:24:15.360 I think that's probably the most important thing.

00:24:17.320 Oh, I mean, gold dropped a hundred bucks an ounce in like an hour.

00:24:20.680 Yeah, it's interesting how that works.

00:24:22.560 Gold, of course, is a bet against the U.S. dollar.

00:24:24.640 And the rest of the stock market went exactly in the opposite direction.

00:24:28.380 And so, you know, markets reflect confidence.

00:24:30.800 And I think the revival of our self-confidence is the most important thing, actually.

00:24:34.400 Because everything else, we could talk about the issues that, you know,

00:24:37.300 fixing the border, restoring law and order, enforcing the law,

00:24:40.580 ending rampant crime in the country, growing the economy.

00:24:43.860 All of those things require a certain level of self-confidence in America,

00:24:47.720 requires a certain sense of spine in who we are to be able to say,

00:24:51.380 okay, an economy grows when people are willing to take risks.

00:24:53.720 You're not willing to take risks to create a new business or to grow,

00:24:56.740 you know, or to invest in a new venture,

00:24:58.760 unless you have actual confidence in yourself and your ability to do that.

00:25:02.420 Same thing with respect to the rule of law.

00:25:04.140 You have to believe in the validity of American rule of law

00:25:06.920 to actually stand by it, even when it's actually hard or unpopular to do so.

00:25:11.060 Same thing to say that our own border actually means something.

00:25:13.200 You have to have confidence in a nation to believe that that nation is worth protecting.

00:25:16.600 If you actually don't believe in what's inside,

00:25:18.260 then there's no real reason that you have to protect it physically either.

00:25:21.680 So I think the revival of our national self-confidence

00:25:25.040 is the most important thing Donald Trump has delivered

00:25:27.640 and I think is going to deliver for the country.

00:25:30.120 And if we get that back, the rest of it's actually pretty easy.

00:25:33.820 It sort of falls into place more or less automatically, I would say.

00:25:36.920 But along the way, there are all, I mean, there are all kinds of obstacles.

00:25:41.340 And the first obstacle is finding the right people to staff the government.

00:25:44.700 Yes, yes.

00:25:45.580 Which was, and Trump has said this himself,

00:25:48.220 including to me, like the day before he got elected in public,

00:25:51.820 I didn't have anyone to run the government.

00:25:54.140 And there are a lot of bad people wound up in positions of real authority.

00:25:59.320 Will it be different this time?

00:26:01.080 I think it will, actually.

00:26:02.360 I think it will because, first of all, we're all human beings,

00:26:05.260 Donald Trump included, has learned a lot from that first term.

00:26:08.980 I think that if you have somebody who had never run for office before,

00:26:12.720 and I'm particularly sympathetic to this,

00:26:14.220 I ran for president without knowing what the heck I was getting into.

00:26:17.920 And it was very much a fire first, aim later strategy for me over the last year when I ran.

00:26:23.940 And so I can deeply empathize with Donald Trump's first run for president.

00:26:27.680 But not only did he run for the first time, he actually won the first time as well.

00:26:30.600 And to be able to get in there, as you said, I wasn't there,

00:26:33.460 but it sounds like without even that much of an expectation of winning,

00:26:37.060 I think the system was able to strike back before he and his team were able to get their arms around the system.

00:26:44.280 And even still accomplished a lot.

00:26:45.920 I mean, I think that first term was, you and I said this when we spoke the other day,

00:26:49.800 but it was like the most successful president of the 21st century,

00:26:52.400 which is setting a very low bar because the other presidents in the 21st century have been awful.

00:26:56.920 George Bush, Joe Biden, Barack Obama are the others.

00:26:59.960 And Donald Trump was unambiguously the best of that batch.

00:27:02.640 But I think the idea that there's only, there's certain things you can only learn by doing it.

00:27:07.400 I mean, even running for president, there's only certain things I could have learned about that process by doing it.

00:27:11.860 Now, let alone leading the country.

00:27:13.300 I think there's only certain things Donald Trump could have learned by actually being in that position.

00:27:17.160 And so this time around, I think he is laser focused on making sure that the people he puts into those positions

00:27:25.560 actually share broadly his vision for the country, broadly share an allegiance.

00:27:31.080 People make like this some kind of bad thing, but an allegiance to him personally.

00:27:34.460 I'm sorry, if you're running a company, you can't run that company as a CEO.

00:27:37.480 If the people who work for you actively dislike you or wish to undermine you personally,

00:27:42.280 even if they believe in the company's product,

00:27:44.100 it doesn't work if they actually like actively hate the CEO.

00:27:46.600 So I don't know why the liberal press actually likes to make a big deal out of the fact that

00:27:51.180 Donald Trump wants people who will also share a personal allegiance to him and are mission aligned.

00:27:56.360 I think both of those things are required for a functioning organization.

00:28:00.120 Because it's authoritarian.

00:28:01.300 Because under Trump, the FBI was always showing up at people's houses and stealing their cell phones

00:28:05.820 and carting them off to, oh, wait, no.

00:28:09.000 You know, these people are totalitarians.

00:28:11.520 I know a lot of people personally.

00:28:14.500 I'm friends with people who've been the target of FBI raids, including today.

00:28:20.440 Alfie Oaks, who's a wonderful man.

00:28:23.680 We would have visited his restaurant and shop in South Florida, Naples.

00:28:28.560 Good man.

00:28:29.860 I don't know anything about the allegations against him.

00:28:31.080 Best grocery store in the United States.

00:28:32.240 I have no idea.

00:28:32.620 He's a very kind human being who was immensely – he just took such great care of our family in the short time we spent with him.

00:28:38.500 Yeah, he's a wonderful person and he's an outspoken conservative and outspoken Trump voter.

00:28:44.280 Which is your right to do in this country.

00:28:45.780 Of course.

00:28:46.320 He was a COVID dissident and he was raided by the FBI today.

00:28:52.220 Now, I just texted him.

00:28:54.060 I don't know what the charges are, the pretext is for raiding his house, but I'm willing to stake my credibility on – since I know him so well.

00:29:05.460 You know, don't think Alfie Oaks is doing anything that warranted an FBI raid and I doubt he would have been raided if he not been an outspoken Trump voter.

00:29:11.300 So, anyway, these people are scary.

00:29:13.600 They're going to be thrown out of power.

00:29:16.980 What does Trump do with the mandate that he has?

00:29:20.600 I hope as much as possible, as quickly as possible.

00:29:22.840 I think the same – I think the lesson from last time around is if you don't move fast, the beast ultimately will, you know, will swallow any individual whole.

00:29:33.620 Of course.

00:29:34.140 And so I think he's ready to go in with real determination this time around to move quickly, move fast.

00:29:38.740 I think we need wins behind our back early on.

00:29:42.560 You know, one of the things that I think we learned from last time around is a lot of this is just early momentum, right?

00:29:47.420 Let's say we have three – all three branches.

00:29:49.280 Let's say we've got – I mean, judicial branch.

00:29:51.220 We have a great judicial branch right now at the top of the Supreme Court, the best we've had, certainly in our lifetime.

00:29:56.320 But you combine that with the strong electoral mandate for the presidency, a strong, decisive majority in the Senate, hopefully get a good Senate majority leader picked.

00:30:03.760 And then – and I think Rick Scott would be great for that, but that's a side note.

00:30:07.140 It can't be John Cornyn.

00:30:08.200 John Cornyn is an aggressive liberal.

00:30:10.360 And if Donald Trump wins the popular vote and John Cornyn of Texas, who is way more liberal than a lot of Democrats I know, winds up Senate majority leader, I mean, that's just – it's crazy.

00:30:21.020 So assume a few more of those correct pieces fall into place and then even a majority, at least an impeachment-proof house.

00:30:28.140 I think that we've got to go big.

00:30:29.980 We've got to go fast.

00:30:31.380 Two major issues right out the gate.

00:30:33.060 One is already the one that Donald Trump's been talking about the entire time.

00:30:35.920 You know he's pumped up about it, and he is not going to mess around with this, is to fix the illegal immigration crisis and actually seal our national borders.

00:30:43.920 And he is laser-focused on that.

00:30:46.660 He has made no secrets about that.

00:30:48.020 That's his top campaign message.

00:30:49.860 He's going to keep that promise, and I think he's going to keep it fast starting on day one.

00:30:53.120 That's number one, and there's a lot to say on that, but it's hard to say what hasn't already been said about what needs to be done.

00:30:59.300 It's just about getting in there and doing it.

00:31:01.580 So that's mass deportation number one is millions of illegals out of this country and sealing the border along with it.

00:31:07.300 But I'm actually far more intrigued and interested for the long run in what I think of as the second mass deportation that we require, which is the mass deportation of millions of unelected federal bureaucrats out of the D.C. bureaucracy.

00:31:21.640 And I do think that is what's going to save this country in the long run.

00:31:24.800 But you can't do that.

00:31:25.260 I think you actually can.

00:31:26.520 You can't fire.

00:31:28.120 We can all be fired.

00:31:29.160 I've been fired many times.

00:31:30.380 I'm sure you just lost a presidential race.

00:31:32.960 The only group that cannot fail that has actual tenure is not Harvard professors.

00:31:39.620 Not even.

00:31:40.160 It's not even.

00:31:41.220 It's federal bureaucrats.

00:31:42.460 No, Amy Wax just got – tenure is no protection at all compared to the protection of federal employment.

00:31:49.140 So the one difference is, first of all, we have a president who I think has the spine to actually step up and do it.

00:31:54.040 But the second thing is we actually have a – not to get too in the weeds here, but we actually have a legal landscape with the current Supreme Court that allows us to do what couldn't have been done in the last half century.

00:32:05.920 They have a moral right to work from home 10 hours a week at our expense at a far higher wage than the average American.

00:32:16.140 Oh, absolutely.

00:32:17.020 So the funny thing is –

00:32:18.080 But they have a moral right.

00:32:18.800 You can't complain about it.

00:32:19.800 You actually brought up a really interesting dimension of this.

00:32:21.580 If you literally just mandated that they have to actually show up to work Monday through Friday, I know a radical idea.

00:32:27.960 They don't go to work.

00:32:28.800 Actually, a good number of them would quit that way, right?

00:32:30.800 Right.

00:32:31.400 That step alone.

00:32:32.440 So you don't even have to talk about – you want to mass firing, mass exodus.

00:32:35.660 Just tell them they have to come back five days a week from 8 p.m. to 6 p.m.

00:32:39.720 Like many Americans, most Americans who work hard to earn a living in this country, just show up physically to work.

00:32:45.680 You'd actually have about a 25% thinning out of the federal bureaucracy right there.

00:32:49.040 So that's an easy first step.

00:32:50.100 Next step is – so the Supreme Court, what they've laid out right now is they've basically said in so many words that most federal regulations are unconstitutional.

00:33:00.300 Close to in so many words.

00:33:01.260 That's what they've said.

00:33:02.100 If Congress didn't pass it – it's a basic principle here is the people we elect to run the government should run the government.

00:33:07.720 That's not the case today.

00:33:08.740 The people who write most of the rules were never elected to their positions.

00:33:11.100 And the Congress makes the laws.

00:33:12.100 That's what the Constitution says.

00:33:12.820 That's what the Constitution says.

00:33:13.600 But that's not exactly how it works today.

00:33:15.340 And the Supreme Court, thankfully, has had a major problem with that.

00:33:17.960 So there was this case West Virginia versus EPA two years ago.

00:33:21.020 There was this Loper Bright case that came down this year that overturned this horrific doctrine called Chevron deference, which said that the courts have to defer to the agency's judgments on what the law actually says.

00:33:33.400 The Supreme Court's torn all of that to shreds.

00:33:35.460 And basically what they've said is if it's a major question, if it's something that affects people's lives economically or relates to a major political issue, it cannot be written into existence by somebody who was not elected to office or who can't be voted out of office.

00:33:48.400 It has to be done by the people who were elected to write the laws.

00:33:52.320 So who could be voted out if they write bad laws?

00:33:54.900 That's a beautiful thing.

00:33:56.260 And I think that those were seismic in their impact.

00:33:59.140 That's democracy.

00:33:59.640 That you're describing democracy.

00:34:00.620 That's actually the essence of democracy.

00:34:02.880 That's the essence of self-governance.

00:34:05.480 So we've had those cases come down under this Biden-Harris tenure.

00:34:10.360 But actually, if you have somebody who takes over in the presidency now, as we're going to go on January 20th, who takes a posture of executive humility, and this is the key part, right?

00:34:20.440 Because people will say, oh, Donald Trump's going to go if he's going to go shut down these agencies.

00:34:24.340 That's executive fiat.

00:34:26.000 No, no, no.

00:34:26.320 You got it mixed up.

00:34:27.120 The executive fiat is what's been happening for the last century, really, in this country, but over the last four years included.

00:34:34.620 Unelected bureaucrats by fiat legislating what otherwise should have gone through we the people and our elected representatives.

00:34:40.520 So the Supreme Court's already said, told the executive branch, no, no, no, you can't do that.

00:34:44.020 Actually, a lot of that was illegal and unconstitutional.

00:34:46.220 All we need right now is an executive branch that says, hey, the Supreme Court, you've told us a lot of what we're doing is illegal.

00:34:53.240 It violates the Constitution.

00:34:55.100 So we're not going to do that anymore.

00:34:56.700 And that requires us to take any regulation, any federal regulation that fails these standards that the Supreme Court has given us in West Virginia versus EPA and Loper Bright.

00:35:06.000 And there's another case called Jarkacy versus SEC.

00:35:08.740 That one relates to slightly different issues.

00:35:11.580 But the Supreme Court standards, all of these regulations that fail that test, we're just going to rescind them.

00:35:16.900 They're null and void.

00:35:17.680 And we don't have to rescind them because we already know they're actually null and void and illegitimate anyway.

00:35:22.380 But we will put the public on notice to say these tens of thousands of regulations that have been written by federal bureaucrats, they're null and void because they were never written by the people who we elected.

00:35:32.520 Now, if you have 50 percent fewer regulations, that creates kind of an industrial logic to say that, okay, well, then we don't need 50 percent of the people around anymore either.

00:35:43.520 And the way these rules have worked in the past is they have this – you know this well, right?

00:35:47.960 The civil service rules, the civil protection rules that say you can't fire these federal bureaucrats.

00:35:52.800 That's been the historical accepted dogma.

00:35:57.180 Actually, if you read the law carefully, it doesn't work quite that way.

00:35:59.640 That applies to individual firings, right?

00:36:01.560 To say if I fire you, you have a special protection to say that I either politically discriminated against you or discriminated for some other reason, or if you fire a bunch of people with discretionary firings, if there's a disparate racial impact or a gender impact or whatever, you could be sued on a million grounds.

00:36:16.940 But if it is part of a mass firing, what you call a reduction in force, if it's just like a mass firing, those actually fall outside the civil service rules as they exist.

00:36:26.140 So if you go in that order to say that, okay, the Supreme Court's already told us that all of these regulations, not all of them, but an overwhelming majority of them are invalid.

00:36:36.320 You go straight down that list and say we have 50 percent, 70 percent, 80 percent fewer regulations.

00:36:41.320 Then you look at the 4 million people, civil servants or whatever, and say that, okay, if we have 80 percent fewer regulations, then we need 80 percent fewer people to enforce them.

00:36:50.700 That simply makes sense.

00:36:52.040 Then you have the industrial logic for right there under current law, mass downsizing just the scale of the federal government.

00:36:59.880 And part of the problem is these things are deeply related.

00:37:02.940 When you have a bunch of people who show up to work who should have never had that job in the first place, they start finding things to do, actually.

00:37:11.940 And that's what gave us that regulatory morass in the first place, like the Federal Reserve.

00:37:16.540 I mean, if you just fired about 22,000 employees in the Federal Reserve, if you fired 90 percent of them, there would still be 2,000 left, which is arguably on the high side if you have a Federal Reserve whose sole focus is restoring the stability of the U.S. dollar, which I do think should be the sole mandate and sole purpose of the U.S. Fed.

00:37:34.660 Same thing with respect to – you go straight down the list, EPA, SEC, FTC.

00:37:37.940 What do 22,000 employees do at the Fed?

00:37:40.620 Oh, they do a lot of calculations.

00:37:42.100 They do a lot of conjecture.

00:37:43.440 And it feeds their hubris a little bit.

00:37:47.160 So markets – and I was – I worked at a hedge fund.

00:37:50.460 That was the first job I had for seven years out of college and understand a way in which people will huddle around divining what the exact meaning is of a comma at the end of Federal Reserve minutes.

00:38:01.340 Does that mean that they think the economy is overheating so much that they have to raise interest rates?

00:38:05.960 That feeds the kind of hubris of the bureaucrat to make them think that they're some kind of genius and some kind of actual savant that merits this attention.

00:38:14.360 But the reason the market actors pay attention to what these Federal Reserve people say is not because they have some sort of expert knowledge that's actually meaningful.

00:38:21.600 They're actually looking to see effectively how they're going to screw it up in the process, right?

00:38:26.380 And so academics took over the Federal Reserve in the late 1990s.

00:38:30.180 But the Fed only has one big lever, right?

00:38:32.380 Well, they have a few levers, actually, they're able to pull.

00:38:35.960 Yeah.

00:38:36.320 I mean, one big lever broadly means how much money you feed in or suck out of the system.

00:38:39.940 Yeah.

00:38:40.200 Yeah.

00:38:42.240 That's true.

00:38:42.920 But they've used that in ways that have been, I think, badly destructive to the country.

00:38:47.520 I mean, because here's like an example of how.

00:38:49.920 So when the academics took over the Fed in the late 1990s, one of the things that happened – and this was a kind of managerial class in this agency.

00:38:56.600 And that's a three-letter agency in some form, the FED, right?

00:38:59.440 What they said was, okay, if wages are going up – this is a long story if you want to get into this, but we can give you a short version.

00:39:07.440 If wages are going up, that is a leading indicator of inflation.

00:39:12.580 So wage growth was a bad thing.

00:39:15.320 So the way you fight wage growth is by tightening monetary policy into wages going up.

00:39:20.460 Here's the problem with that.

00:39:21.280 And anybody who's run a business knows this, okay?

00:39:23.960 Wages are generally the last thing to go up in the business cycle.

00:39:27.680 If things are going really well in the business cycle, the last thing most employers want to say – I'm not saying it's the right decision or the wrong decision, but most employers, the last thing they want to have go up is the wages.

00:39:37.300 So wages tend to be actually not a leading indicator of the business cycle.

00:39:41.420 Wage growth tends to be a trailing indicator of the business cycle.

00:39:44.840 But you have the academic mindset of the Federal Reserve that said that's one thing we can measure that we can observe and feel smart about.

00:39:49.500 So wage growth, we're going to treat that as a leading indicator of inflation even when it's a trailing indicator.

00:39:54.160 Well, what does that mean?

00:39:54.960 They tighten monetary policy precisely into a natural downturn of the business cycle, which gives you the boom bust.

00:40:01.480 And then what comes after a bust is, of course, the bailout.

00:40:04.320 So you get these boom bust bailout cycles.

00:40:06.520 That's exactly what happened, you could say, in 2000.

00:40:08.520 You could see it in 2008.

00:40:09.760 You could see some version of it even in 2023, although that was a little bit more subtle.

00:40:14.920 And so anyway, that's a whole rabbit hole about the Fed.

00:40:17.180 But it's an example of when you have 23,000 people show up to work who should have never had the job in the first place, they start finding things to do.

00:40:23.720 And when you find things to do, that ends up being destructive rather than helpful, which means the root cause is you've got to get rid of the presence of the people who populate that bureaucracy.

00:40:31.680 But in order to do that, you need this industrial logic.

00:40:35.960 And that industrial logic, in my opinion, is what the Supreme Court has already given us, which is this mandate to say the executive branch, the fake executive branch, the administrative state, has written all these rules by fiat.

00:40:47.100 Most of them are illegal.

00:40:48.200 Like they're actually unlawful.

00:40:49.580 They're illegitimate.

00:40:50.480 And so if you have an executive branch that says, OK, we're going to recognize that most of these regulations are illegitimate, there's your blueprint for then shaving down the size of the federal bureaucracy, which is then the permanent solution to stop that bureaucracy from perpetuating this kind of illegal ramp into action.

00:41:06.760 And I think that's the stuff of how you actually save a country, boring as that might sound.

00:41:10.460 It's not boring.

00:41:11.520 And I think I've never heard in all the, you know, my whole life in Washington, anybody suggest that this is a process that could really be stalled or reversed.

00:41:22.580 The process being the growth of the federal government, which is just inexorable because the purpose of the institution is to protect itself and expand.

00:41:30.000 It's like a law of physics applied to this government.

00:41:32.100 Every institution exists to protect itself for its own benefit.

00:41:35.320 That's its purpose.

00:41:36.760 And it's demonstrable in its behavior.

00:41:38.920 So, but it's so obvious.

00:41:41.640 It's so overwhelming.

00:41:42.600 It's the largest institution in human history.

00:41:45.420 I've never heard anybody say, you know, we have a shot of like lopping off 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%.

00:41:51.380 80%.

00:41:52.040 Yeah.

00:41:53.840 I mean, that would change everything from our foreign policy to our economy to our culture.

00:42:00.000 You really think that could happen?

00:42:02.580 Yeah, I think it could happen.

00:42:03.940 I think there'll be trade-offs.

00:42:05.440 I'm not going to paint some sort of exclusively fake.

00:42:09.420 Well, one of the trade-offs is going to be you're going to have a crash in the economy of Arlington, Virginia, which is well-deserved.

00:42:16.360 And maybe a boom of the economy elsewhere.

00:42:17.740 And long overdue.

00:42:19.320 Yeah.

00:42:19.540 You know, why shouldn't Arlington and McLean and Loudoun County share the pain of Gary, Indiana?

00:42:27.100 I don't understand.

00:42:27.800 Or Springfield, Ohio.

00:42:28.840 I don't understand that.

00:42:29.800 I'm actually going to take the bright side of this.

00:42:32.420 Sorry.

00:42:33.120 I'm taking the apocalyptic side.

00:42:34.600 I mean, I'm in the golden age mood right now.

00:42:36.880 Yeah, yeah.

00:42:37.020 No, sorry, sorry, sorry.

00:42:37.840 We're entering the golden age.

00:42:38.420 You can feel the resentment.

00:42:39.900 It's two sides of the same coin, though.

00:42:40.900 They go right together.

00:42:41.820 Yeah.

00:42:42.140 Send these people to Gary and Dana or to Springfield.

00:42:44.580 Yeah.

00:42:44.740 We don't need external individuals to the nation to actually fill those open positions.

00:42:50.800 We have three million of them sitting in the greater Washington, D.C. area.

00:42:55.440 Who could say, well, are those people really going to do those jobs?

00:42:57.500 Maybe they should.

00:42:58.080 Actually, they could be far more productive than the destruction that they're doing to the country right now.

00:43:02.600 It is a fact that we have more open jobs than we have people in the country.

00:43:05.520 That's often one of the backdoor arguments made for mass illegal immigration in this country.

00:43:10.160 But actually, I think for rule of law reasons, you need deportation of people who are in this country illegally.

00:43:16.100 But if you get three million people out of the federal bureaucracy in Washington, D.C., they are Americans.

00:43:20.320 And those are available candidates to actually provide a little shot in the arm to the labor market as well.

00:43:25.320 Why shouldn't the agencies be moved to Baltimore?

00:43:28.080 To the extent they exist, I think they should absolutely be moved.

00:43:31.240 Absolutely.

00:43:31.840 I don't think all of – I think many of those agencies should not exist.

00:43:35.000 Many of them that do continue to exist absolutely should be moved to other parts of the country.

00:43:39.460 I don't think the Surgeon General Office should sit in Washington, D.C.

00:43:41.860 I don't think you should have much of HHS more broadly.

00:43:46.040 I don't think that the Department of Agriculture should sit in Washington, D.C.

00:43:49.380 I think there are countless agencies, the Department of Education.

00:43:52.000 I think you're wrongfully insulated in Washington, D.C.

00:43:56.300 Now, certain of those agencies like the Department of Education should not actually exist.

00:43:59.840 So I wouldn't want to start this process of just saying, okay, let's move them out of Washington, D.C.

00:44:06.540 as some sort of polite, genteel way of avoiding and sidestepping the thing that we actually need to do, which is bring a jackhammer and a chainsaw to the whole thing.

00:44:14.420 But even those that do continue to exist, you would actually have a lot more accountability to the people and probably even some kind of stimulus, if you will, in parts of the country that wouldn't mind a little bit of that growth getting out of D.C.

00:44:28.720 and coming to their own backyard.

00:44:30.880 These two things go together, though, because if you actually did take one of those agencies and say, hey, you have to show up to work five days a week.

00:44:36.280 And actually, you have to go to Topeka, Kansas or Cincinnati, Ohio instead, you'd actually have a good number of the people quit anyway, which avoids the severance costs.

00:44:45.260 So I kind of like that method is you could kind of get two in one right there is thinning it down and moving it out.

00:44:50.840 But, yeah, move the agencies out.

00:44:52.320 You should fire about 75 percent of the federal employee headcount.

00:44:55.720 If not, you know, immediately on day one, you could go you could ease into that pretty quickly.

00:45:00.720 Agencies that are redundant can be reorganized that shouldn't exist.

00:45:04.000 Department of Education is a good example. Shut it down.

00:45:06.120 Send the money back. Workforce training can move to the Department of Labor and loan collections can move to Treasury.

00:45:11.740 There's just a mass opportunity for a mega reorganization and thereby downsizing of this bureaucracy.

00:45:19.120 And it's a one way ratchet because it's not like if another president comes back, they can write that back into existence by fiat.

00:45:25.040 They'd actually have to go through Congress to do it.

00:45:27.160 And so I think this is a. To call it once in a generation understates it.

00:45:34.160 It might be it might be closer to once in a century or once in a nation's lifetime opportunity to drastically reorganize and reshape and drive structural change in the federal government.

00:45:46.960 And I'm pretty pumped up about that, actually.

00:45:49.620 Would you be involved in this effort?

00:45:51.260 I'd like to be. Yeah, absolutely. I've given it a lot of thought.

00:45:53.620 It was the centerpiece of my presidential campaign. I spent a year and a half of my life.

00:45:57.680 This is it was probably the most. I mean, I took a lot of positions on a lot of things, but this is probably the single most useful and certainly personally important to me.

00:46:06.120 Part of the policy aspect of my campaign last year.

00:46:10.460 And yeah, I have been involved, let's just say, in recent months.

00:46:14.120 So this is laying out what the blueprint should look like.

00:46:16.260 This is the draining the swamp part of the operation that we were promised but never got in.

00:46:20.740 I know you've talked to the president elect about this and many other topics.

00:46:24.520 Do you think he's on board for something this far reaching?

00:46:27.820 He understands this is the root cause of the cancer.

00:46:30.920 He I mean, he's he said drain the swamp for a reason.

00:46:33.700 You could talk about all the reasons why that was hard to do the first time around.

00:46:36.780 One of the reasons is we don't even have that legal landscape from the current Supreme Court.

00:46:39.960 And he made some good Supreme Court appointments that allowed us to have this landscape.

00:46:43.600 So now I think he is dialed in, understands that incrementally tinkering around the edges of these agencies, it doesn't work.

00:46:51.540 There's a temptation to say if you just fire the person on top that somehow that's going to fix the problem.

00:46:56.140 No, you know, get James Comey 2.0 or whatever to fill the same seat.

00:47:00.200 But I think if you're willing to actually strike the leviathan at its core, I think that that's actually what it's going to take to save a country.

00:47:10.160 And I do think he gets that in a deep way.

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00:50:40.160 Federal employees are the core audience of CNN and MSNBC.

00:50:44.560 So I don't think they're going to be.

00:50:45.680 Yeah, of course they are.

00:50:46.620 Who's watching that crap?

00:50:48.000 Yeah.

00:50:48.340 What happens?

00:50:49.560 I mean, right.

00:50:50.100 That's a good question.

00:50:50.740 I'm not, obviously.

00:50:52.500 But apparently people are.

00:50:54.500 They're watching The View.

00:50:55.420 What happens?

00:50:56.120 They're watching Jimmy Kimmel or whatever his name is.

00:51:00.060 What happens to all those people?

00:51:01.940 I mean, if they reach the point of like being so totally discredited that they can't continue.

00:51:06.740 So here's sort of my view.

00:51:08.060 When I talk about the bureaucracy as something we need to bring a chainsaw to, I actually draw

00:51:12.720 a distinction between the bureaucracy as its own self-perpetuating organism and the individual

00:51:19.840 3 million people who populate it.

00:51:22.020 So there are certainly some people who are in positions of authority who are just individually

00:51:26.340 bad people, absolutely, that need to be purged from the federal government and get out and

00:51:32.060 back into normal life.

00:51:33.280 And maybe they can be rehabilitated, but they're going to be, that's not going to be the job

00:51:37.160 of the new government.

00:51:38.460 That's going to be something that their own spiritual advisors have to help them through.

00:51:41.880 That's a separate category.

00:51:43.620 But I think that's a relatively small minority of the three plus million federal civil servants

00:51:49.940 who I do think are probably dead weight, worse than dead weight, because they're actually

00:51:56.120 inadvertently even doing things that are net harmful to the country.

00:51:59.800 I think it's the machine itself that I think is a big part of the problem.

00:52:03.420 A lot of these people are people who individually believe that they're carrying out some sort of

00:52:07.820 some sort of good.

00:52:08.880 And it comes from this sort of organizational conceit, which is basically skeptical of

00:52:13.780 self-governance, right?

00:52:14.980 I mean, it's as old as human beings are, is the idea that you can govern yourself was

00:52:20.440 mostly a radical idea that most people thought was laughable and crazy.

00:52:23.980 I mean, that's why we fought the American Revolution over the exact topic that you and I are talking

00:52:28.140 about here.

00:52:28.980 Because the basic view is that if you leave it to we, the people, you'll burn yourself out

00:52:33.740 of existence through global warming or climate change, or you'll harm yourself before you

00:52:39.920 even know it through racial equity failures or climate change failures, that's the equivalent

00:52:44.880 of what the old European worldview was, was that the idea that we, the people, could be

00:52:48.960 trusted to govern ourselves and express our own opinions.

00:52:51.600 That was crazy.

00:52:52.600 That's why we fought an American Revolution.

00:52:54.320 Well, it turns out that that ugly monster is just rearing its head again, saying that,

00:52:57.820 no, no, no, you actually can't be trusted to self-govern.

00:52:59.580 So we'll tell you that you are to give you the satisfaction of believing that you live

00:53:03.780 in a republic.

00:53:04.400 See, that was actually, they could think of, rewrite the American Revolution through a

00:53:09.360 revisionist lens and say, okay, you can't tell people they live in a monarchy, but if

00:53:13.760 you can at least keep the parts of a monarchy that are required for society to continue to

00:53:17.980 exist, but fool people into thinking they live in a democracy or a self-governing republic,

00:53:22.960 that's almost good enough.

00:53:24.520 And that comes with some inconveniences because sometimes it will actually even behave a little

00:53:28.280 bit like a democracy at times, but in the core questions, at least if it was unelected

00:53:32.340 people who actually made those decisions, that machine is actually what protects humanity

00:53:37.720 from itself.

00:53:39.220 And so the people who occupy those positions are individually people who believe that they

00:53:43.300 are doing the right thing, not even for themselves or that they're trying to harm their fellow

00:53:48.140 citizens.

00:53:48.640 They're doing the right thing for their fellow citizens.

00:53:50.640 I'm thinking about the average civil servant working at the FTA or the SEC or whatever.

00:53:54.960 They believe that if it weren't for them, the silent, you know, the Bruce Wayne figure

00:54:00.680 that they are, right?

00:54:02.140 The hero that Gotham deserves.

00:54:04.480 That's how they think about themselves.

00:54:06.580 And individually, I guess you could say that that motivation, as much as there's a conceit

00:54:10.600 embedded in that, like they're not individually irredeemable people.

00:54:14.860 I just think that they have become part of a machine that is irredeemable.

00:54:19.240 And so maybe they'll continue to watch Jimmy Kimmel.

00:54:22.600 That's like a separate issue, right?

00:54:24.240 We have cultural issues in the country.

00:54:26.380 But if we view the bureaucracy as its own target, separate and apart from the individuals

00:54:31.680 who comprise it, I think that's going to A, allow us to be more successful and B, allow

00:54:36.580 us to, I think, sell it to the rest of the country and not in a fake sale, but like a true

00:54:43.300 sale to say that we don't hold this against the individuals who are working here, who have

00:54:49.580 put in 20 years of work to the federal government.

00:54:51.860 But we owe it to the rest of the people of this country that the job of the federal government

00:54:55.820 is not to employ these people.

00:54:57.480 So where does the rubber hit the road on that?

00:54:59.020 Here's one where you could call me soft for this, but I actually think this would be advisable.

00:55:03.000 I actually think this would drastically increase the probability of success of this happening.

00:55:06.640 But I also think that it doesn't really dilute what we're doing.

00:55:10.520 It doesn't dilute our purpose.

00:55:12.760 I would actually favor rather generous severance arrangements with those individuals, right?

00:55:19.820 Like we could debate whether that's a year, is it a year and a half?

00:55:22.520 A year and a half would be extremely generous.

00:55:25.040 You could say that, well, then you're eating into some of your cost savings.

00:55:28.620 Not really.

00:55:29.180 In the long run, you're still saving a lot of money.

00:55:30.840 For sure.

00:55:31.280 But the whole exercise wasn't really about saving their headcount costs anyway.

00:55:35.000 The biggest cost of employing the people in this machine is the action of the machine

00:55:39.160 itself.

00:55:39.580 So if you've debilitated that for a year and a half's worth of severance, well, I mean,

00:55:43.780 what's that?

00:55:44.320 It's like a year and a half's worth of not having done this in the first place.

00:55:47.160 Pay that as a down payment to actually make that happen.

00:55:49.460 That by normal employment standards is actually really generous.

00:55:52.680 Like if you're working at a company and you're not doing a great job and someone fires you,

00:55:56.740 or even if you are doing a great job and you're part of a division that's no longer part

00:55:59.140 of that company, you're generally not going to get a year and a half's worth unless you're

00:56:02.000 the CEO.

00:56:02.600 You're not going to get a year and a half's worth of pay.

00:56:04.880 It just doesn't work that way.

00:56:05.700 You might get two weeks.

00:56:06.380 You might get two months at most.

00:56:07.960 So to treat these federal employees far more generously than they would have been in a

00:56:12.920 private sector circumstance, there's probably people watching this who would think I'm being

00:56:17.840 soft for saying that.

00:56:18.920 No, I think we're actually, I think that's the right thing to do because it will allow

00:56:23.620 us to do this in a way that separates this as a personal vendetta against those individuals

00:56:28.480 who themselves have their families and their kids and whatever to say that we're solving

00:56:31.820 more of a structural problem.

00:56:33.940 And so that's how I kind of separated Tucker is, especially economically on the severance

00:56:38.060 piece of this.

00:56:38.760 Like I want to go in, I want to go, I want to go hard.

00:56:41.160 I want to go aggressive, but I want to make this less about going after the individuals

00:56:46.540 or, you know, they're still free to watch the view if they want.

00:56:49.640 You know what?

00:56:49.960 They can have a year or a year and a half's worth of their own salary.

00:56:52.580 Oppose it because, I mean, it doesn't matter.

00:56:56.360 It doesn't matter.

00:56:57.080 Like it just doesn't matter right now, actually.

00:56:59.080 I love that.

00:56:59.820 Yeah.

00:57:00.500 And they'll sue and they'll take it to the Supreme Court.

00:57:03.040 That's also why this has to be done now, not only because it's the window of the electoral

00:57:06.480 mandate we have.

00:57:07.780 I think the current Supreme Court is on our side in a way that it never has been since

00:57:14.380 the advent of the administrative state, which was around 1920.

00:57:17.040 Like in the last century, we haven't had a, we have not had a Supreme Court that has been

00:57:21.040 as aligned with the vision that I'm describing to you as we have now.

00:57:24.520 And fast forward another 20 years, we probably won't really.

00:57:27.540 I mean, realistically in the next 20 years, there's going to be somebody who you and I

00:57:30.360 don't agree with, who's probably going to be elected president.

00:57:32.680 And there's going to be Supreme Court justices who either die or get swapped out in that time

00:57:36.700 frame.

00:57:36.900 So this is a, again, back to a once in a century, maybe once in a national history opportunity

00:57:42.380 to really drive deep structural change in the federal government.

00:57:48.720 Improvement.

00:57:49.000 And so here's how I would stop it if I were on the other side and opposed to this.

00:57:54.640 Yeah.

00:57:54.840 I would have a war.

00:57:56.480 I mean, we have.

00:57:57.580 Like a foreign war.

00:57:58.000 Well, sure.

00:57:58.580 We have these.

00:57:59.420 I mean, the federal government is at its current size because of war.

00:58:02.720 The main physical effect of the Second World War in the United States was the construction

00:58:07.560 of the world's largest office building, the Pentagon.

00:58:10.120 We have DHS because of a war.

00:58:12.060 No, it is.

00:58:12.600 And DHS came into existence, of course, in the.

00:58:14.660 In 9-11.

00:58:15.240 Yeah, post.

00:58:15.900 So, yeah, war increases the size of government.

00:58:19.460 It changes attitudes.

00:58:20.500 It changes your society, always in terrible ways, in my opinion.

00:58:24.420 But certainly it changes it.

00:58:26.120 But it creates an environment where people don't question because people are afraid.

00:58:30.540 Yeah.

00:58:31.320 And so they feel like they need government.

00:58:33.600 So.

00:58:33.800 It's the ultimate big government is the.

00:58:36.780 You know, there have been a lot of money spent in the last year on war with Iran.

00:58:43.740 Like people want war with Iran.

00:58:44.960 That's the war people want, donors want, I know for a fact.

00:58:48.460 So if we get a war with Iran, then we're not cutting the government at all.

00:58:53.680 Interesting.

00:58:54.140 I would give that some thought.

00:58:55.220 I mean, you're one of the things that's also true is that massive Leviathan we're talking about.

00:59:00.800 Probably I gave the we go into this esoteric example about the Fed.

00:59:03.740 But one of the best places and best examples of that is the State Department, as you well know.

00:59:08.380 Right.

00:59:08.540 That is when you think about the swamp and the unelected bureaucracy and the people who set policy were never elected to set that policy.

00:59:14.820 I mean, the State Department is probably even a far better example than the U.S. Federal Reserve.

00:59:18.340 There are too many good examples to choose from, but that's.

00:59:20.280 State Department is disgusting.

00:59:21.800 Yeah, that's probably.

00:59:22.400 Should be.

00:59:23.000 High on the list.

00:59:23.720 No, it's got some sort of mandate to make the world gay or something.

00:59:27.260 I don't understand what, where it came.

00:59:29.520 I mean, the point of the State Department is to conduct diplomacy on behalf of the United States.

00:59:33.220 It's not to change cultures around the world to fit, you know, the mores of Bethesda, Maryland, actually.

00:59:39.140 Well, I think it's behaved like most organizational bureaucracies.

00:59:42.420 It takes on a life of its own.

00:59:44.240 And so that's, again, another example of an agency.

00:59:47.260 It's just another agency, really, that needs to be, you know, we've got to take the same attitude to say that if you've got a bunch of people showing up to work,

00:59:53.700 who should have never had that job, they start finding things to do that are generally damaging.

00:59:57.660 And that could include even not only in our own soil.

01:00:00.300 Oh, my gosh.

01:00:01.040 But abroad as well.

01:00:02.100 Oh, it's, I mean, my dad works at the State Department.

01:00:04.720 It is upstream of the welfare state in some ways, too.

01:00:07.120 Because it even relates to the immigration crisis, actually, more so in Europe, though.

01:00:12.300 I think it probably will eventually be directly linked to the immigration crisis here, too, where part of Europe's mass invasion, if you will, of illegals entering Europe is actually the consequence of U.S. disruptions that we created.

01:00:28.180 The war in Syria.

01:00:29.560 Absolutely.

01:00:30.080 Yeah, Syria.

01:00:30.860 And Libya.

01:00:31.360 That's exactly right.

01:00:32.380 No, we did that.

01:00:33.300 And so that necessitates a welfare state.

01:00:36.080 We're different from Western European countries.

01:00:37.460 But if you view the West more broadly and the rise of the welfare state in the West, the warfare state actually creates the need for that welfare state, which then actually creates the magnet that keeps the illegal migration pattern coming.

01:00:49.360 And the labor, you know, the real labor shortage in this country is in the Pentagon.

01:00:52.660 They can't meet their recruitment goals.

01:00:54.080 Yeah.

01:00:54.500 And so they're going to start, yeah, waving in illegal aliens and giving them automatic weapons.

01:00:59.360 Do you think that's, do you think that's, of course, that's happening.

01:01:01.920 Where this is going?

01:01:02.600 Yeah.

01:01:02.800 Of course.

01:01:03.380 And so then you, then you have, you know, late Rome where the Germanic tribes are populating

01:01:08.880 your, your.

01:01:09.640 It's history.

01:01:10.020 Yeah.

01:01:10.120 Yeah.

01:01:10.400 It's, it's terrifying.

01:01:11.940 But okay.

01:01:12.600 So let me just ask you about the election.

01:01:14.060 Yeah.

01:01:14.160 It's so dark.

01:01:14.760 I can't even think about it, but that's where we're going.

01:01:16.860 Um, okay.

01:01:19.640 So within hours of the election of Trump being declared the winner in this last election, numbers

01:01:25.700 appeared on the internet, which are accurate, which I know you've seen that showed the vote

01:01:29.700 totals in the last four elections for the Democrats.

01:01:32.200 Yeah.

01:01:32.660 And in three out of the four, the number of, including this one, the number hovered between

01:01:36.140 say 59 and 65, um, million votes.

01:01:40.780 And then you have this weird anomaly in 2020 where it was 81.

01:01:44.420 Huh?

01:01:44.640 Uh, so how do you go?

01:01:47.200 It was such a compelling candidate.

01:01:48.820 That doesn't make any sense.

01:01:51.100 So this candidate, his vice president, she received, she, Kamala Harris received, they

01:01:57.800 tell us, Wikipedia tells us received 81 million votes in 2020.

01:02:03.000 And then somehow she received 15 million fewer.

01:02:07.800 What happened to those 15 million?

01:02:09.580 That just does not make it.

01:02:10.480 I just dare anyone to explain that to me.

01:02:12.560 What is that?

01:02:13.000 I mean, look, I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm not a scholar on this stuff, but what I will tell

01:02:17.480 you, what I will tell you is it doesn't, yeah, yeah.

01:02:20.060 So I think a good number of those on, on the super positive side of this, a lot of those

01:02:24.880 people are the people who were given the permission structure, whether it's those people

01:02:28.280 or not, we'll put that to one side.

01:02:29.260 But there are a lot of people who actually did vote for Joe Biden, who could not stomach

01:02:35.140 voting for anyone other than Donald Trump this time around.

01:02:37.240 I think it's great.

01:02:38.000 Yeah.

01:02:38.180 But Trump's numbers stayed the same.

01:02:39.940 Yeah.

01:02:40.260 Trump's numbers have stayed the same.

01:02:41.580 That's true.

01:02:42.080 For three, three elections, pretty much the same.

01:02:45.140 Um, and let's just, let's just cut to the chase on this.

01:02:47.160 We won the election.

01:02:48.060 Here's what we do.

01:02:48.540 Single day voting on election day as a national holiday with paper ballots and government issued

01:02:53.940 ID to match the voter file.

01:02:55.340 And I would also add, while we're at it, make English the sole language that appears

01:02:58.400 in a ballot.

01:02:59.560 And you know what?

01:03:00.220 It's a beautiful thing.

01:03:01.820 Puerto Rico does it this way.

01:03:02.780 There's other countries that do it this way.

01:03:04.480 I think that that's something that we could actually do.

01:03:06.240 The country that sent a rocket out and caught it on the way back.

01:03:10.180 Yes.

01:03:10.400 We would be able to actually run elections on a single day with paper ballots.

01:03:14.540 Yeah.

01:03:14.800 And send dominion packing.

01:03:16.400 And the fact, the fact that there is resistance to this, let's just say the policy proposal on

01:03:20.940 offer.

01:03:21.400 Okay.

01:03:21.800 I've said it countless times.

01:03:22.820 Donald Trump's talked about this.

01:03:24.200 Single day voting.

01:03:24.920 On election day.

01:03:26.460 Make it a national holiday that actually brings people together.

01:03:29.420 Paper ballots.

01:03:30.500 Government issued ID to match the voter file.

01:03:32.440 I don't.

01:03:32.900 If that is objectionable, that itself raises doubts about exactly what the heck is going

01:03:38.340 So I don't think Kamala Harris, you can check this, but I'm pretty sure Kamala Harris did

01:03:42.760 not win any states with voter ID law.

01:03:46.400 Oh, is that right?

01:03:47.080 Yep.

01:03:47.260 And she didn't lose any.

01:03:48.560 That's very interesting.

01:03:49.100 She didn't lose any states that don't require voter ID.

01:03:52.320 Huh.

01:03:52.560 So, um, that's really interesting.

01:03:55.820 No, I'm not saying there's a connection there, Vivek, but, um, you're following the science.

01:04:00.200 So I just don't understand.

01:04:02.240 And I, again, I've been in, you know, 18 hours or whatever of depositions from voting

01:04:06.520 machine companies to disgusting companies.

01:04:09.760 Um, I was not named in either suit, but they hauled me in and tried to wreck my life just

01:04:13.900 for, I don't know, I guess, disagreeing with them or something.

01:04:17.020 Smartmatic and Dominion, disgusting companies.

01:04:19.560 Um, why do we have electronic voting machines?

01:04:23.920 No one will say this because they're afraid of getting sued by these companies.

01:04:26.680 What's the justification?

01:04:27.200 What's what?

01:04:27.880 I haven't followed the, the industrial history of this.

01:04:30.900 When did that come into, when did they start using them and what was the justification?

01:04:34.680 The justification was that they're more efficient and faster, more accurate and faster.

01:04:38.360 Yeah.

01:04:39.120 And it turned out.

01:04:39.820 It's like it takes a lot longer to get our.

01:04:41.820 No.

01:04:42.220 So, um, so India, I think is the largest country in the world.

01:04:46.500 I think they, we reset the population numbers recently.

01:04:49.280 And if it's not the largest, it's one of the largest by populace, second largest.

01:04:52.400 Yeah.

01:04:52.480 I think it's largest now.

01:04:53.300 Yeah.

01:04:53.420 I think it is the largest.

01:04:54.860 And I, largest democracy for sure in the history of the world.

01:04:58.060 And I think they finished counting in one day every time.

01:05:01.300 Is that correct?

01:05:02.040 I think it did.

01:05:02.600 It's pretty fast.

01:05:03.320 A lot of countries do it pretty fast.

01:05:04.600 As I said, even, even, I mean, like you look at a territory of the United States, even

01:05:07.900 Puerto Rico, like runs their elections with such.

01:05:12.220 It's like executional excellence compared to the rest of the United States of America.

01:05:17.860 And they can't even keep the power grid going.

01:05:19.320 It's unbelievable.

01:05:19.780 And they can pull off a fair election.

01:05:21.200 It's unbelievable.

01:05:22.060 And so we, what do we say this time around?

01:05:25.180 This had to be by such a decisive margin that a landslide minus some shenanigans is still

01:05:31.420 going to be a decisive victory.

01:05:32.780 And that's what we got.

01:05:33.520 So my view is we can, and there's, there's going to be such a temptation to do this is,

01:05:39.560 um, we actually won.

01:05:41.660 Like we're actually in a winning position right now.

01:05:45.100 So like, I, I, I more or less like could care less for the Kamala Harris or Joe Biden

01:05:49.360 pastor or whatever.

01:05:49.960 Like, I just don't, it just doesn't matter.

01:05:51.440 That's the spirit.

01:05:52.460 What I care about is like, how are we actually going to fix it in a lasting way?

01:05:55.920 Like in a way that just lasts for a really long time.

01:05:58.020 I think there would be enough of an opportunity.

01:06:00.380 I mean, think about the majority we're now commanding in the Senate.

01:06:02.660 I think we can do this nationally where you make election day, national holiday, put it

01:06:07.100 on a single day.

01:06:07.680 And at least for federal elections, because state elections are run by states, but at

01:06:10.840 least for a federal election, all 50 states have a bit of bare minimum standard of single

01:06:16.860 day voting, paper ballots, government issued ID to match the voter file, period.

01:06:21.300 And I think more or less we've solved the problem of public confidence in elections for the

01:06:27.520 long run.

01:06:28.060 Oh, you solve it.

01:06:28.860 You solve it right there.

01:06:29.660 If you're against that, then I'd like to offer, I'd like, I'd love to hear the best

01:06:33.400 possible argument offered against that.

01:06:35.460 I haven't really heard one yet.

01:06:36.760 Black people don't have IDs in this country.

01:06:38.060 Yeah.

01:06:38.200 I think that that's a racist supposition actually.

01:06:40.520 It's insane.

01:06:41.160 So, you know, and then they will allege racism for somebody who actually thinks anything different

01:06:44.660 than the actual most racist thought on the matter.

01:06:47.120 But I haven't heard a good compelled, most black people favor voter ID laws.

01:06:52.420 Actually, most people favor voter ID laws.

01:06:53.940 So it should not be surprising that most black people also favor voter ID laws.

01:06:57.580 And, you know, I think if somebody's on their way to, you know, if somebody's driving, somebody

01:07:02.760 uses this analogy that I thought was pretty good, is driving on their way to vote and

01:07:05.820 they actually get pulled over.

01:07:07.320 They say, no, no, I'm on my way to vote.

01:07:08.340 That's your way out of actually a speeding ticket.

01:07:10.160 Because if you're on your way to vote, you don't need a voter ID.

01:07:12.120 But if you're driving anywhere else, you do.

01:07:13.440 It's kind of a funny little paradox.

01:07:15.700 So most, it's common sense.

01:07:17.560 It's called common sense because most people everywhere tend to have it.

01:07:21.460 And I think most people agree on this issue.

01:07:23.700 We now have enough of a mandate.

01:07:25.360 So I think let's just let's just do it.

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01:10:22.960 So how did you, when I saw you in Florida on election night with Trump and you clearly

01:10:30.380 like him, he clearly likes you.

01:10:32.760 You know, running against somebody for office is not a natural environment for a friendship

01:10:37.360 to sprout at all.

01:10:38.500 You know, Jeb Bush was not there.

01:10:41.080 Yeah.

01:10:43.160 How did you end up liking Trump?

01:10:45.720 How did he end up liking you?

01:10:46.900 Why do you have such an easy friendship after running against him?

01:10:50.260 I think we're both unusual individuals in ways that caused us to gel.

01:10:54.300 Actually, I didn't see the point in running.

01:10:58.580 I ran against Trump for sure.

01:11:00.220 And, you know, I made my case for why I thought I was the right candidate.

01:11:03.300 You know, I think that there was, I was the youngest person ever to run for U.S. president

01:11:06.700 as a Republican.

01:11:07.360 And I do think that there is an opportunity to lead and bring in a new generation in some

01:11:12.680 ways as we have, nonetheless, in the last year.

01:11:15.160 But I didn't do the Trump bashing thing.

01:11:17.460 Like it just seemed, seemed kind of lame.

01:11:20.060 It seemed really facile.

01:11:21.240 He was the best.

01:11:21.700 Yeah, but it's these things.

01:11:22.760 That's right.

01:11:23.300 Everyone starts out that way.

01:11:24.380 But then it gets intense.

01:11:26.560 It gets intense.

01:11:27.240 Yeah.

01:11:27.580 And, you know, we had our, we had our sharp moments over the course of the campaign.

01:11:31.060 Sure, but it wasn't personal.

01:11:32.120 It wasn't personal.

01:11:33.220 Well, how did you do that?

01:11:34.420 How did you not get mad?

01:11:35.740 They all get mad at the end.

01:11:37.100 Yeah, I know.

01:11:37.440 It was interesting.

01:11:42.760 I guess the whole thing wasn't an exercise that I took super personally anyway.

01:11:46.820 I think when you take this stuff too personally, it becomes exhausting.

01:11:49.600 But for me, it was, look, I feel like I have a calling for the country.

01:11:52.160 I'm running for something.

01:11:53.760 I'm running for my vision.

01:11:56.300 And you know what?

01:11:57.340 Along the way, because it was deeply consistent with my vision, I respected Donald Trump.

01:12:00.980 Like in a certain sense, if you think about like a family business or something, right?

01:12:04.760 You have, you're going to have a guy who started it, that bequeaths it to his kids.

01:12:09.040 At some point along the way, there are some bumps in the road in terms of, you know, how

01:12:13.660 that happens and when, and when's the right time for the torch to be passed on.

01:12:18.000 And those would be legitimate disagreements, arguments within the context of family business.

01:12:24.280 I know many people who have been in that similar position.

01:12:26.400 And so in that sense of carrying the American torch, we can have like a reasonable debate

01:12:31.120 about when the right time is for that to be able to pass on to the next generation of

01:12:34.960 leaders or whatever.

01:12:35.700 But I came from a place of actual deep respect for Donald Trump the whole time that I ran.

01:12:41.140 Because one of the reasons why is it was a fact of the matter that I was self-aware about

01:12:45.380 myself.

01:12:45.980 I would not have thought about running for US president had Donald Trump not actually done

01:12:49.960 it as a first time outsider and won in 2016.

01:12:52.760 Like, I don't think that that, I don't think that idea would have occurred to me.

01:12:59.180 I'm a, you know, I'm an entrepreneur.

01:13:01.120 I believe in achieving things that have been achieved before, but that particular thing,

01:13:05.280 I just wouldn't have even considered that possibility had Donald Trump not run, won and

01:13:09.700 been a successful president.

01:13:11.780 And so, you know, I said it on the debate stage at that Donald Trump was the greatest president

01:13:15.280 of the 21st century.

01:13:16.060 And I think it actually caused more anger from the other candidates on that stage at me for

01:13:20.960 the rest of the race than Donald Trump or I ever had with respect to each other.

01:13:24.860 Oh, really?

01:13:24.900 They didn't like that.

01:13:25.640 They didn't like that very much.

01:13:26.560 Who didn't like it?

01:13:27.240 Well, I think most of the other people on the debate stage at me, actually.

01:13:31.180 How many were there?

01:13:32.060 This started with like 10.

01:13:34.700 You know, I, the last debate I had, there was four of us up there.

01:13:39.280 That was interesting.

01:13:40.360 Oh, there was, there was, oh, so many things I would do differently, but that's, that's a

01:13:44.360 story for another day.

01:13:45.720 You know, I think the hardest thing is, you know, I think the hardest thing is, you know,

01:13:50.960 the hardest part was in the short windows into a campaign that you, that you have interfacing

01:13:57.680 with like 300 million people.

01:14:00.460 I think even the people who were in physical rooms with me understood me at a different

01:14:04.980 and deeper level than the 99.9% of the electorate that never was, but who saw, saw the few windows

01:14:14.620 that they had to see who you are.

01:14:15.980 Now the debates, one of the things I learned about them is that this different for a general

01:14:20.500 election debate.

01:14:21.020 If you're going against like Trump versus Harris or Trump versus Biden, people watch that.

01:14:24.300 And for good reason, I'm glad they did.

01:14:25.840 But like in a, in a Republican primary debate in the early cycle, where there's like 10 people

01:14:30.140 standing on a stage, most people don't actually watch that debate or see what happened for

01:14:35.720 themselves.

01:14:36.060 But what they do see is the distillation of it.

01:14:38.600 And so the clips, as we say, the clips, but even, even the, even just like the verbal

01:14:43.800 descriptions of actually what happened, that's what they get is the synthesis.

01:14:47.340 So the audience functionally of a primary debate isn't really the electorate.

01:14:51.760 It's two groups of people.

01:14:53.240 It's the gatekeepers in the media.

01:14:55.140 And it is the people who fund campaigns.

01:14:57.260 Like that's the audience that actually matters.

01:14:59.800 I mean, I'm not saying it should work that way.

01:15:02.640 And I'm saying, I want it to work that way.

01:15:03.800 But functionally, if you're looking at moving the ball forward in a, in a race, that is

01:15:09.660 the group that determines whether or not that event actually advanced your campaign forward

01:15:15.900 towards victory.

01:15:17.160 And at a certain point in the campaign, I mean, you and I actually spoke a few times over it,

01:15:20.120 including over conversations like this we had while I was running, you know, the conclusion

01:15:24.020 I arrived at was, here's my strategy.

01:15:26.720 I'm going to tell you what I actually believe right now.

01:15:29.620 And 99% of the time, that was the same thing that I believed four years ago.

01:15:35.880 1% of the time it was not.

01:15:37.140 But I'm going to tell you what I believe right now.

01:15:39.200 And I'm going to tell it to you straight without filters.

01:15:42.860 And it felt like that should be a winning electoral strategy.

01:15:45.940 Um, I'm not sure it's the winning electoral strategy, but this race was just so different

01:15:51.880 from any other one, because in retrospect, there's literally, it's foolish for anybody,

01:15:57.540 myself included, to think that anybody else was going to come out of this process other

01:16:00.700 than Donald Trump as the nominee.

01:16:03.100 And it's because the moment right now that we're in, the people of this country know what

01:16:07.320 they need when they need it.

01:16:08.600 And they needed a guy who had been there, who had, who was strong enough, who wasn't

01:16:12.840 necessarily an ideologue, but who was a badass, who actually had had the experience and was

01:16:17.620 ready from those learnings to be charged up and go back in and actually take it to the

01:16:21.760 next level.

01:16:22.160 So they, they knew that.

01:16:23.120 And I don't think the outcome was going to be any different in terms of who the nominee

01:16:26.180 was, regardless of what I did.

01:16:27.500 But there was still a lot of, a lot of learnings through the process.

01:16:31.400 Now, things like I could have done better, I mean, a million things I could have done better,

01:16:36.180 but I think that, you know, I think that being unsparing as I was, I think I, that I wouldn't

01:16:46.700 change, but to be able to combine that a little bit more with, if there's a way for me to allow

01:16:51.900 a lot of people to sort of know me the way that like my employees at my businesses know

01:16:55.500 me or my closest friends know me, I would, I would love to think about how to do that.

01:17:00.000 Donald Trump's actually really good at that.

01:17:01.480 Yeah, he is.

01:17:01.940 Yeah.

01:17:02.100 And I think that he is, he's like the best at it.

01:17:04.420 And watching him, even in the years since I left the campaign has been eyeopening.

01:17:09.680 It's been, it's been kind of inspiring actually.

01:17:11.680 And it's made me think a lot about, he's able to take, you know, 20,000 people in a room at a time,

01:17:16.420 but also a hundred million people not in the room at that time to really get to know him,

01:17:22.660 like who he is and feel like they actually deeply know him as a person, as opposed to just his

01:17:26.420 policies.

01:17:27.420 I think I was really good at allowing a lot of people around the country to know what my policies

01:17:31.860 were, what my specifics of were my vision for America.

01:17:35.280 I found it a little bit hard to figure out how to let people on the other side of the camera know

01:17:40.960 who you actually are.

01:17:41.700 I get it.

01:17:42.080 It's difficult.

01:17:42.800 That was, that was like kind of one of the, one of the reflectors.

01:17:44.720 Trump is more self-deprecating than he gets credit for quite self-deprecating.

01:17:49.160 It's actually really funny.

01:17:50.160 It's actually what makes him funny.

01:17:50.800 It's really funny.

01:17:51.220 The other night in the last week of the campaign, he was pivoting against the Trump voters are garbage.

01:17:56.400 Mitch Biden's comment, he shows up in a garbage truck wearing, I think you were there, wearing

01:18:01.080 the, you know, Dayglo vest and he comes out on the stage wearing it and he says, my staff

01:18:05.760 told me they wanted me to wear this.

01:18:06.700 I wouldn't wear it.

01:18:07.280 And they said to me, it makes you look thinner.

01:18:09.320 Yeah, I know.

01:18:09.900 I like that.

01:18:10.920 And I said, anything makes you look thinner, I'm far.

01:18:13.020 It's like, that's hilarious.

01:18:13.880 That's true.

01:18:14.360 It's hard to say stuff like that about yourself.

01:18:16.400 Yeah.

01:18:16.780 So what about, I've just wondered, like one of the sort of ongoing side skirmishes that I try

01:18:22.140 not to pay too much attention to, but it's a little mesmerizing, is the Never Trump movement.

01:18:27.520 Oh yeah.

01:18:27.880 What's going on with that right now?

01:18:28.960 Well, I don't think nothing, anything actually.

01:18:30.860 And I'm interested because they're all people I know.

01:18:33.240 Yeah.

01:18:33.780 Because I'm from Washington.

01:18:34.840 That makes it more interesting for you.

01:18:35.560 It does.

01:18:36.020 For you.

01:18:36.420 Yeah.

01:18:36.640 And they're so, they're just so repulsive to me.

01:18:42.280 What do you think is going on?

01:18:43.440 I think there's a kind of, it's like a psychological derangement.

01:18:46.800 Of course.

01:18:47.280 Right.

01:18:47.420 It's almost like a, it's like a condition that needs to be treated with like.

01:18:50.840 A hundred percent.

01:18:51.800 By a priest or something.

01:18:53.200 Totally.

01:18:53.760 If you're, you know, whatever Dick Cheney's repulsive little daughter or Jonah Goldberg

01:18:59.120 or something, you know, it's like, you're not, they're just not impressive people.

01:19:03.660 They were exercising authority far beyond what they had earned in my view in the first

01:19:10.080 place.

01:19:10.400 Both are the products of nepotism and they're just mad that their world ended, whatever.

01:19:14.740 But here's the, I don't want to be mean about it, though.

01:19:16.540 That was mean, really mean, but true.

01:19:18.640 It's not an honest.

01:19:19.120 It was true.

01:19:20.160 Uh, but the, in the closing days of the campaign, the Harris people kept telling us there were

01:19:25.800 a lot of people like that.

01:19:28.380 There were a lot of Republican women who weren't going to vote for Trump because he's too repulsive.

01:19:32.540 They wouldn't tell their husbands.

01:19:33.500 They wouldn't tell their husbands and they're going to vote for Kamala Harris.

01:19:37.040 And it turns out like the never Trump world has gotten so much attention, but there's like

01:19:42.760 no one in it.

01:19:43.420 No clothes.

01:19:43.900 Absolutely.

01:19:44.220 There's no one there.

01:19:45.080 Totally.

01:19:45.360 Yeah.

01:19:45.700 It was, it actually ended up just being a mirage.

01:19:47.420 That whole thing at the end started, that actually really got under my skin a little

01:19:50.000 bit.

01:19:50.200 Like the whole thing about going to the ballot box and vote differently than your husband.

01:19:54.500 Like that was a pitch that was made.

01:19:56.840 Subverting the family, subverting the marriage, encouraging a spouse to lie.

01:20:01.160 Yeah.

01:20:01.300 You could, you could vote differently, but like the idea that you want to do it secretly

01:20:04.120 creates this some kind of, I mean, so it's, it's the ultimate division play because

01:20:08.620 identity politics divides us based on.

01:20:10.280 It is the division.

01:20:11.100 It's the natural extension of like division on race, division on gender, division on

01:20:15.780 gender within the household because they're fundamentally against the household as a unit

01:20:20.020 anyway.

01:20:20.560 That's for sure.

01:20:21.140 And so that was, that was, that was probably the thing that pissed me off the most.

01:20:24.040 Well, I don't even understand it.

01:20:25.540 I mean, I, I know someone really well was saying the other day, well, you know, we're voting

01:20:29.040 differently in our household.

01:20:30.080 And I, I said to my wife, if we had, we're going to vote for different people.

01:20:34.040 First of all, I would say, absolutely not.

01:20:35.360 We're not voting for different people.

01:20:36.880 Sorry that.

01:20:37.360 We're not going to vote if we're going to vote for different people.

01:20:40.360 And second, we're going to take the weekend and talk for as long as it takes to get on

01:20:45.220 the same page.

01:20:46.040 Yeah.

01:20:46.800 And maybe I'll change my view.

01:20:47.860 Maybe it'll change yours, but we're going to align because we're married.

01:20:50.260 Yeah.

01:20:50.840 I don't even understand that.

01:20:52.860 You're on the same team.

01:20:54.500 A hundred percent.

01:20:55.760 At the deepest sense.

01:20:56.300 Yeah.

01:20:57.040 Yeah.

01:20:57.600 So basically they're encouraging people.

01:21:00.460 To not only split the team, but to lie about it.

01:21:02.540 And actually that.

01:21:03.300 To lie to your husband.

01:21:04.640 Yeah.

01:21:04.880 Boy, that is the democratic party just distilled.

01:21:07.720 It's the lie to your husband party.

01:21:09.100 It's the weak man, unhappy woman party.

01:21:11.260 Sorry.

01:21:11.500 Oh, it makes me.

01:21:12.620 There's something really sinister about that.

01:21:14.500 There's something sinister about it, but it reveals.

01:21:17.560 I mean, that's what it's something sinister about it, but it's also, I mean, it's transparently

01:21:21.580 what the agenda is.

01:21:22.800 Of course.

01:21:23.300 Yeah.

01:21:23.480 And so that was in some ways, the tactics of the politics of it revealed a big part

01:21:28.560 of what the whole project was.

01:21:29.520 It was like, they were always telling you during COVID or during the BLM riots, the real

01:21:34.060 insurrection, which is what that was, you know, go home and lecture your racist uncle

01:21:40.320 or grandfather at the Thanksgiving table.

01:21:42.180 That's right.

01:21:42.600 That was again, destroy your family.

01:21:44.140 That was again, destroy your family over what your, what your ideological obligation is.

01:21:49.760 Do you think that culture changes?

01:21:51.240 I think it, I think it has to, I mean, I think if we get our job right here, let's say we're

01:21:57.400 just going and dismantling nuke and, you know, the administrative state actually fixing illegal

01:22:02.840 immigration in this country and actually having secure national borders, reviving our self-confidence.

01:22:07.540 I can't see how the culture doesn't change.

01:22:10.480 And in some ways, actually it's a cultural change that might even just be in the wrong

01:22:14.140 framing of it.

01:22:15.560 That is a small part of the story.

01:22:17.400 I think in some ways the culture has already changed.

01:22:20.940 And the best evidence of that is what we saw the last couple of days, like what we saw

01:22:25.220 on Tuesday night where, by the way, at the time you and I scheduled this to sit down,

01:22:29.100 I was kind of skeptical because I thought we're going to be like sitting here looking at like

01:22:32.360 TV screens and like counting ballots in Pennsylvania or something like that, which would have been

01:22:35.980 a horrific way to spend time.

01:22:37.320 But the fact that we're not doing that and that very night, we actually knew the result

01:22:42.960 in a way that nobody anticipated, suggests that we actually have already had the cultural

01:22:46.600 change in this country and it was just revealed to be so.

01:22:51.460 Whatever happened to Joe Biden?

01:22:53.360 Is he, I mean, that, I'm not making fun of him.

01:22:56.340 I feel sorry.

01:22:57.300 No, I feel bad for him.

01:22:57.460 I do too.

01:22:58.500 But I've never seen anyone disappear faster than Joe Biden.

01:23:03.620 You never heard a word from him.

01:23:04.320 I wonder what his attitude is towards the Obama family right now, towards Barack Obama.

01:23:09.480 Because Joe Biden certainly would have been a more compelling candidate than Hillary Clinton

01:23:14.440 in 2016.

01:23:16.240 And so this guy has had this life dream.

01:23:18.740 He's worked his entire life, became a senator, was elected like at the age of 30 or 29 or whatever

01:23:22.740 it was.

01:23:23.220 And then when he was elected and he was turned 30.

01:23:24.420 Who has aspired his entire life over the span of decades, beginning long before I was born.

01:23:31.440 Over 50 years.

01:23:32.040 For this, for this, I mean, like significantly longer than I was born.

01:23:35.800 This man has been a U.S. senator and aspired to be U.S. president.

01:23:39.900 To say that finally when his turn came around in 2015, after faithfully serving as a vice

01:23:46.400 president or whatever, to say that no, no, no.

01:23:48.260 For eight years.

01:23:49.060 For eight years going through that ignominy.

01:23:51.100 And then to have to have Hillary Clinton to say, no, no, no, no, it's not your time.

01:23:56.480 And then finally, he just says, OK, after Hillary loses, I'm just going to do this myself

01:24:01.080 anyway by hell or high water.

01:24:03.420 That's a whole separate discussion.

01:24:04.540 Gets his way into the White House.

01:24:06.000 And then to say the same guy comes back and, you know, who knows if the reporting on this

01:24:12.740 is true, but effectively threatens to have him constitutionally removed from office and

01:24:18.640 to lead a coup unless you bend the knee.

01:24:21.380 The same guy only to then watch again, the woman instead, who this time was nominated,

01:24:27.120 this time it's Kamala Harris, fail at the very mission that you otherwise run.

01:24:32.340 I cannot even begin to fathom what that, what that feels like.

01:24:36.900 He is surely the happiest person about the election result on Tuesday night in America,

01:24:43.140 right?

01:24:43.440 Because he's at least personally, maybe him or Jill Biden, his wife, are the, had to have

01:24:48.700 been the two most, you know, schadenfreude relieved Americans in the country.

01:24:54.660 But it's, it's, it's in, how is he doing?

01:24:57.460 I don't know.

01:24:58.000 Does that help if you're going through like a state of cognitive decline?

01:25:02.480 Does something like that, as painful as that is, does that sense of aggrievement and desire

01:25:09.740 for vengeance actually kind of sharpen you?

01:25:11.480 Maybe it does, because it did seem like he actually got a little bit sharper, actually,

01:25:16.500 after he was yanked up.

01:25:18.060 It's like part of him, it's like part of him came back, right?

01:25:21.820 His wife wore red on election day.

01:25:24.780 Oh, did she?

01:25:25.960 Yeah, I mean.

01:25:26.540 You wore a MAGA hat.

01:25:27.460 Yeah.

01:25:28.040 So, you know, it's not like they were, they were, they were hiding it too much, but, you

01:25:33.220 know, it's, it's just a fascinating thing.

01:25:35.840 It's neither critical nor not.

01:25:37.080 It's just, it's just interesting sociologically and just psychologically.

01:25:40.460 What about the rest of the party?

01:25:42.160 Like if you, I mean, well, you failed, you ran for president and didn't get elected.

01:25:46.620 And I know for, cause I talked to you about it, there was a time after where you thought,

01:25:50.760 okay, you know, what did I do right?

01:25:52.200 What did I do wrong?

01:25:53.040 Where you take on a stock of your own behavior because that's, that's what it is to grow.

01:25:58.520 That's called adulthood.

01:25:59.760 Yeah.

01:26:00.040 Is there a moment like that for the democratic party?

01:26:02.060 Do you think?

01:26:02.540 I think, I hope there is actually, I'm kind of rooting for that because that'd be better

01:26:05.880 for the country.

01:26:06.540 I mean, the number one person who's responsible for whether or not you achieve your goal is

01:26:12.220 you actually.

01:26:13.040 There's a lot of other factors you can blame.

01:26:14.220 Of course, but yeah, the number one determinant of whether you achieve what you set out to

01:26:18.140 achieve is you.

01:26:18.860 And that's applies to the level of an individual.

01:26:20.280 And if your team is in a political party in American politics, then that's true for,

01:26:25.200 for your team, right?

01:26:25.940 They, they were responsible for their own failure and demise.

01:26:28.960 I saw some interesting things over the last day and it hasn't, it hasn't been as like

01:26:33.680 monolithically crazy as I expected.

01:26:36.520 I expected everybody just in lockstep in the same way to go the same direction of, you know,

01:26:42.220 threat to democracy, authoritarianism has reached America.

01:26:44.880 And we're seeing certainly a lot of that.

01:26:46.300 That's like 90% of it.

01:26:47.940 But I think there were, I think some thoughtful moments of reflection of, you know, a few folks.

01:26:54.600 Like I think, I don't know this guy, but someone sent me his tweet.

01:26:59.640 Does Iglesias sound right?

01:27:01.740 Yeah, Madaglesias.

01:27:02.000 Yeah, he had, he had something thoughtful.

01:27:03.980 Like I, in my campaign, I had, um, I had 10 truths, 10 things that are true that I lay

01:27:07.640 out.

01:27:07.800 That was kind of the centerpiece of my campaign.

01:27:09.460 Yeah.

01:27:09.840 You might remember they sent it to me.

01:27:11.380 He had nine today, but like he left it.

01:27:14.060 Like he forgot.

01:27:14.660 Number 10 was the joke that somebody sent me, but actually I read them and it wasn't,

01:27:18.140 they were all smart and reasonable.

01:27:19.560 You saw this.

01:27:20.360 Yeah.

01:27:20.680 I don't like Matt Y.

01:27:22.240 Glacius at all, but I don't know.

01:27:24.240 Say, Oh, I saw, I saw, I saw this.

01:27:26.200 I'm a non-fan and I'm willing to admit that all nine of them were great.

01:27:30.640 Yeah.

01:27:31.020 It actually, it actually, it actually made me feel pretty good.

01:27:33.400 The U.S.

01:27:33.840 government exists for the benefit of its citizens.

01:27:36.560 Yeah.

01:27:36.900 Yeah, exactly.

01:27:37.540 Stuff like that.

01:27:38.360 It was stuff that was not too dissimilar from what you or I might say about our vision for

01:27:44.200 what the United States America should be.

01:27:45.520 You know, I disagree with some of the stuff on there, the framing of it.

01:27:48.000 He said, what is it?

01:27:48.580 He said something about climate change.

01:27:50.180 Like, I just think the whole agenda is, is artificial.

01:27:52.700 He said, well, climate change is real, but it's not a goal in itself.

01:27:56.200 It is a means to the end of doing what's better for humanity.

01:27:58.820 And I just thought that framing was, I agree, was at least like as a framing matter, the

01:28:03.380 right way to look at it.

01:28:05.300 And so if that's evidence to say that even within a period of 48 hours, you can at least

01:28:10.560 have thoughtful voices on the other side who are willing to look themselves in the mirror,

01:28:16.020 admit failure, inquire about the nature of the screw up, and maybe even begin to offer

01:28:21.540 some path forward.

01:28:22.440 I think that actually leaves me, I'm just, you know, of all the times you and I've gotten

01:28:27.620 together, I'm probably in like the most hopeful mood I've actually ever been in right now.

01:28:32.320 And I'm hopeful for the future of the Republican party.

01:28:34.660 I'm hopeful for the future of our country.

01:28:36.060 But like a weird part of me is almost hopeful for the future of the Democratic party based

01:28:43.000 on, oh, I agree.

01:28:44.340 Oh, either that, or they're gonna have to go the way of the Harvard and Yale that we

01:28:47.400 talked about earlier, either that or they die, right?

01:28:49.400 So it's either evolve or die.

01:28:50.780 As someone who's been fired a lot, I can say there's nothing better for you than failure.

01:28:55.300 Yeah.

01:28:55.540 You know, there's, in fact, it's essential.

01:28:58.620 Yeah, because you'll never reassess, you know, winning, succeeding, I think exacerbates your

01:29:04.780 worst qualities.

01:29:05.960 Totally.

01:29:06.400 Because it covers them up and causes you to die.

01:29:07.960 Totally.

01:29:08.540 And it affirms your hubris and like, I'm successful because I'm so great.

01:29:11.860 Yeah.

01:29:12.540 That's not entirely true.

01:29:13.900 So this time of year, we are focused on our families because we're apt to be with our families,

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01:31:35.700 One last question.

01:31:41.520 Elon.

01:31:42.400 Yes.

01:31:42.800 You know him?

01:31:43.240 Yes.

01:31:43.580 I think you've known him for a while.

01:31:45.300 You're from similar worlds.

01:31:48.300 Tell us what you think his significance in this election was and what his significance will

01:31:53.780 be going forward.

01:31:54.700 Huge.

01:31:55.720 I actually haven't known him for that long.

01:31:57.840 I only got to know him last year.

01:31:59.880 He gave it a dinner I was at while I was running for president.

01:32:02.960 We really hit it off.

01:32:04.600 I like people who are extremely intelligent, and he is in the category of extreme intelligence.

01:32:11.900 He's somebody who is able to, not only able to, but requires himself to be doing multiple

01:32:17.740 different things at the same time, and he's better individually at each of those things

01:32:20.680 because he's also doing those other things at the same time.

01:32:23.180 But I think that his significance was twofold.

01:32:26.900 One is he really expanded that permission structure we were talking about earlier for

01:32:34.720 people who are elite in America, people who define their status based on the number of

01:32:40.240 dollars in their bank account, which I think is probably the wrong way to look at your own

01:32:43.220 status as a human being.

01:32:45.040 But we all have our biases.

01:32:46.600 If the richest man in the world and the most successful self-made man in human history

01:32:51.640 can publicly state his support for Donald Trump, then there's nothing stopping me from doing

01:32:57.000 so, if I believe that's the right answer to it.

01:32:58.700 And he's pretty darn smart, actually.

01:33:00.000 So if this guy both can do it from a social perspective, but also is as intelligent as

01:33:06.060 he is to send rockets to outer space and back more intelligently than the US government has

01:33:10.240 ever, if he can kind of do the analysis and say that Donald Trump's going to be the right

01:33:15.480 choice for the future of the country, then you know what?

01:33:17.820 Maybe I should do some simpler thinking of my own and have the courage to arrive at the

01:33:22.260 same place.

01:33:23.100 So in terms of blowing out that permission structure, like that was certainly what I consider

01:33:27.220 to be one of my responsibilities over the last year, but the person who really blew that

01:33:31.660 out, bar none, was Elon when he came out, publicly endorsed Trump.

01:33:36.540 And I love the way he did it because it was clearly he was just moved by the fact that,

01:33:41.540 okay, he was maybe thinking about it.

01:33:42.980 Who knows?

01:33:43.340 Who knows where exactly he was in his journey right there?

01:33:46.020 He and I talked at various points, but I don't know that he was going to come out and

01:33:48.860 publicly endorse Trump in the way he did.

01:33:50.900 But there was this supernatural event.

01:33:53.080 I do think it was a divine moment in American history where we averted a national disaster

01:34:00.660 by about two centimeters.

01:34:02.900 And Elon just said, okay, it's done.

01:34:04.300 I'm doing this.

01:34:05.400 He's an American hero and I'm endorsing him.

01:34:07.920 I thought that was number one.

01:34:09.000 Number two was on just the execution of it too.

01:34:11.640 And this election, I mean, Pennsylvania was, it turns out Donald Trump would have won regardless,

01:34:16.500 but Pennsylvania was the key that allowed us to really secure this victory and to just

01:34:21.520 go in and say, I've got a lot of political consultants and a lot of people in traditional

01:34:25.140 Republican party apparatuses who have, you know, tried to figure this stuff out and say,

01:34:30.680 no, no, no, I'm just actually going to figure it out myself directly and understand here's

01:34:33.840 low propensity voters.

01:34:34.820 I'm going to personally go and talk to them myself.

01:34:37.220 I'm going to spend nine figures or whatever it was in the end.

01:34:40.000 I think it was at least nine figures to actually make sure that we get the job done and then

01:34:45.340 get the job done, I think was, was essential actually to this victory.

01:34:51.340 And so I hope he's an essential part going forward of saving the country and using this

01:34:56.840 mandate to shred to pieces that federal bureaucracy you and I talked about earlier.

01:35:02.280 And I hope he's, you know, doesn't lose his interest in American politics for a long time to

01:35:07.120 come.

01:35:07.900 You know, you and I think have been on the side of, because, because you hear this objection

01:35:12.160 now coming up, which actually infuriates me about, oh, well, what about all of a sudden

01:35:16.540 now, after 14 years of being silent on this from the left, we don't like this influence

01:35:22.260 of money in politics.

01:35:23.280 Well, okay.

01:35:24.820 Trump got outspent three to one.

01:35:26.640 Yeah, exactly.

01:35:27.200 Three to one.

01:35:27.880 Exactly.

01:35:28.540 Exactly.

01:35:29.140 Shut up.

01:35:29.360 In the swing states, right?

01:35:30.520 So, so, so long as we have the game, and I think that this is something for our side

01:35:34.660 to, you know, man up into as well is if you're going to play the game, like you got

01:35:42.120 to compete, actually.

01:35:43.260 And we can't just win this against the so-called successful or elites or whatever.

01:35:49.320 No, like actually we are better off if we have our own cadre of superhuman heroes who

01:35:55.760 are able to, with their own unique skills, be they cultural leaders or business leaders

01:35:59.480 or whatever, to have our own version of our, you know, special forces as well.

01:36:04.840 Well, especially since nobody, I mean, I don't like most political donors.

01:36:07.840 I know them all and most of them have creepy agendas or they just want to be, get their

01:36:12.000 picture taken with a politician, which is like a very low motive in my view.

01:36:15.480 Yeah.

01:36:16.160 Elon is not unique, but he's very unusual in that he doesn't really want anything.

01:36:21.000 Yeah.

01:36:21.440 He doesn't really want anything.

01:36:22.560 I mean, he-

01:36:23.040 Well, he certainly doesn't need anything.

01:36:24.280 Well, that's what I'm saying.

01:36:24.980 He has a lot to lose, but he certainly doesn't need anything.

01:36:26.600 No, but he doesn't want anything for himself.

01:36:28.140 Like he's not in it, obviously not in it for the money.

01:36:30.700 Yeah.

01:36:30.920 And there's something uniting about it.

01:36:32.940 He was not a conservative.

01:36:35.040 I mean, the whole Trump phenomenon is, if you take three steps back, unifying.

01:36:39.920 Yeah.

01:36:40.380 I think this is a unifying moment.

01:36:41.840 Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn voting for Donald Trump.

01:36:44.000 Yeah.

01:36:44.160 You had Muslims in Southeast Michigan voting for Donald Trump.

01:36:47.380 It was awesome.

01:36:48.000 You had sugar cane workers, the people who cut the cane in Florida and the people who own

01:36:53.020 the ranches.

01:36:53.740 Right.

01:36:54.000 All voting for Donald Trump.

01:36:55.160 You had North Georgia, you know, white rednecks, and you had black men in Atlanta all voting

01:37:00.800 for Trump.

01:37:01.400 Totally.

01:37:02.080 And then above them all is Elon Musk, who's like just sort of this figure who's above

01:37:06.400 politics.

01:37:07.020 He's for Trump.

01:37:07.860 I don't know.

01:37:08.060 There's something.

01:37:08.960 Yeah.

01:37:09.260 It was part of, it was in some ways, in some ways you could say like, you know, what was

01:37:16.400 the causal link that he played if you're wearing an analytical hat?

01:37:18.620 I think it was huge.

01:37:19.820 There's also some broader sense in which this was just destined to happen.

01:37:23.740 Totally.

01:37:23.980 This was all just playing out.

01:37:25.720 Oh, I'm with you.

01:37:26.380 Like, we're going to have like a false analytical hubris here by just like dissecting exactly.

01:37:31.960 No, no, but you're right.

01:37:32.880 It was just all destined to happen.

01:37:33.860 It was going to happen.

01:37:34.580 It was just going to happen.

01:37:35.180 Yeah, no.

01:37:35.460 And this was all part of it playing out.

01:37:37.320 And you know, I think I like all that.

01:37:38.860 I mean, you were there when they won.

01:37:40.120 You know, and even just over the last year, I mean, I, and you know, I'm not, I mean,

01:37:45.900 I wouldn't mean to commit the sin of flattering you to your face, but I think one of the

01:37:49.100 things I liked about our conversations and, you know, I, you know, I fashioned myself as

01:37:55.960 having some of this as well is just having like a little bit of an intuition of where

01:38:00.580 things are going a little bit.

01:38:02.520 Like, just like, just get a pulse of the country and, and to sort of see it.

01:38:07.560 I think you and I had conversations over the last year where I think we were both on the

01:38:13.100 same page about early on last year in like spring of 2023, being both convinced that

01:38:21.420 Joe Biden was not going to be the nominee.

01:38:22.980 Yeah, that's right.

01:38:23.820 And that you said it many times.

01:38:25.740 Well, and there's, there's some darker, there's some darker ones in, in that you and I, I think

01:38:30.060 sadly, um, predicted, but we're wrong about by two centimeters.

01:38:33.960 Yes, exactly.

01:38:34.940 Thankfully.

01:38:35.800 And, you know, even the idea that this was going to be a landslide, you could just sort

01:38:38.860 of feel it, right?

01:38:39.940 Totally.

01:38:40.260 It was just, it was just in the ether.

01:38:41.960 And so in some sense, like at, at our, at our very best, we might kind of smell it coming,

01:38:48.380 but it was coming either way.

01:38:50.200 No, I think that's right.

01:38:51.040 And so I think the more we remember that, that actually is, I think what's uniting.

01:38:54.680 Actually, once you see that, that's really uniting.

01:38:56.480 Like the idea that it's not being done by us, actually, it's being done through us.

01:39:02.420 Like that's a liberating feeling.

01:39:04.560 And in that sense, you and I, or any other everyday American is united with, you know,

01:39:10.440 Elon Musk to Donald Trump.

01:39:11.900 Like we're all part of, I think, a higher plan.

01:39:14.780 It's being done through us.

01:39:16.040 This was coming.

01:39:17.120 It was going to happen one factor or not.

01:39:19.840 And, you know, in some ways we're all just playing our little piece of a role in, in

01:39:26.160 playing out what was going to play out all along.

01:39:28.540 I can't improve on that.

01:39:29.780 That's the, that's the greatest summation I have heard of this election so far.

01:39:33.020 Vic, thank you very much.

01:39:34.280 Good seeing you, man.

01:39:34.960 Great to see you.

01:39:35.860 So the story of the last few years is the story of watching institutions you loved and

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01:39:59.700 And before Kamala Harris, it was Joe Biden.

01:40:02.900 And before Joe Biden, it was Hillary Clinton.

01:40:05.400 And I thought, why in the world am I using a product made by people who hate me?

01:40:10.840 That by the way is not very good.

01:40:12.380 It's dry like a teabag.

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01:40:35.740 the Zinn Corporation, the humorless Kamala Harris supporting Zinn Corporation has ever produced.

01:40:41.040 It's delicious and it's moist.

01:40:43.160 It's not dry like a teabag, which again is disgusting and possibly immoral.

01:40:47.880 That's not to say that there isn't some role for Zinn or whatever.

01:40:51.500 I mean, I think, you know, if you're got a girlfriend who's drunk at a Taylor Swift concert,

01:40:58.220 probably throw in a Zinn.

01:40:59.440 That's like a time and place thing.

01:41:00.600 It's like appropriate for that.

01:41:01.540 I'm sure most people at a Taylor Swift concert are using Zinn.

01:41:05.000 That's not what this is for.

01:41:05.900 This is for people who really enjoy nicotine pouches, who aren't ashamed of that, who don't

01:41:10.780 want to buy products from a company that hates them and their culture and who have some self-respect

01:41:15.420 who don't want to teabag or go to Taylor Swift concerts.

01:41:17.260 I mean, again, we're not judging anyone who does.

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01:41:21.940 So we are proud to announce that ALP will be available for purchase on our website, alppouch.com,

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01:41:55.460 Thanks for listening to the Tucker Carlson Show.

01:41:57.620 If you enjoyed it, you can go to tuckercarlson.com to see everything that we have made.

01:42:02.280 The complete library.

01:42:04.260 tuckercarlson.com

The Tucker Carlson Show - November 08, 2024

Vivek Ramaswamy： Trump’s Sweeping Victory, & What It Means for the Future of Government Bureaucracy

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