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00:02:53.760 We are together on the same day that Todd Blanche and others are up there on Capitol Hill.

00:03:02.280 I don't know if you've had a chance to watch any of the hearing this morning.

00:03:06.000 And I know there's a break right now, a little bit.

00:03:08.780 What's, you know, you've got obviously such a history and reverence to the Department of Justice having worked there and focused on corruption.

00:03:18.280 And we can talk a little bit more about that past and some of the work.

00:03:22.180 but what do you, what do you make of his chances? What do you make of the hearings today? What are

00:03:26.840 the, what, what are your expectations? Well, I don't think he helped himself with Cornyn this

00:03:31.000 morning. I mean, you know, look, um, I did this, as you know, for seven years as the U.S. attorney

00:03:38.540 in New Jersey, we were the fifth largest office in the country at the time. And, and, you know,

00:03:44.020 to have a guy who's the attorney general of the United States enter a settlement agreement with

00:03:48.640 the President of the United States on behalf of the United States, which says that the agreement

00:03:55.400 can only be changed in writing. But then to admit to Cornyn, well, yeah, no, the $1.8 billion is

00:04:01.900 dead. Well, have you changed that in writing? Have they consented to that? And he couldn't

00:04:08.240 answer it. And I think you and I both know why he couldn't answer it. It's because the President

00:04:13.980 the United States won't agree to it and won't sign and change the agreement. And look, he's got

00:04:20.820 his own personal lawyer right now as the attorney general of the United States. What happens if six

00:04:25.600 months from now, a year from now, he says, I'm enforcing that agreement and I want the 1.8

00:04:30.940 billion. And Todd Blanche has already been confirmed. If I were, and Cornyn seemed at the

00:04:36.920 end of his questioning, he got interviewed afterwards and I saw him say like, I'm not

00:04:41.640 satisfied i have real concerns now he didn't commit which way he was going to vote but as you

00:04:47.000 know on that committee one republican defects he can't go so and i think cornyn's got other

00:04:52.900 political incentives to all that as well um so you know um my view on it is that that blanche

00:05:02.060 is not out of the woods um and i think if cornyn and tillis because tillis also was hot about the

00:05:10.100 pardons to the January 6th defendants who actually were convicted of assaulting police officers,

00:05:15.560 which I think makes perfect sense. So, you know, I think those are the two votes at risk. If I had

00:05:23.520 to bet on who is more likely to vote no, it would be Corning. It would be Corning.

00:05:31.140 And is that the core for you, that 1776, the $1.776 billion deal? Is that the disqualifying issue with Blanche, or do you think it's broader than that?

00:05:45.820 It's broader than that. It's broader than that. Look, you can't be taking direction from the President of the United States on who to criminally prosecute.

00:05:53.400 And, I mean, look, I'll give you an example, Gov. In seven years that I was in the Bush administration, I never once got a call from John Ashcroft or Alberto Gonzalez, let alone the president of the United States, saying, do this case, don't do this case, go after this guy, leave this guy alone.

00:06:13.900 never what Ashcroft told me after I'd been confirmed was he said your job is to make every

00:06:22.560 decision with integrity and he said some of your decisions I may agree with some of them I don't

00:06:30.540 he said but if as long as they're not in violation of a policy that the president has set out like

00:06:37.580 um I you know we had a couple U.S. attorneys who really didn't want to do gun cases

00:06:42.860 and President Bush had set up Project Safe Neighborhoods,

00:06:46.440 which was the gun project to get felons in possession of guns off the street

00:06:51.760 and get those guns off the street.

00:06:53.540 And there were some U.S. attorneys who disagreed with that philosophically.

00:06:56.560 Well, all right, then they deserve to get fired

00:06:58.540 because that's a perfectly legitimate policy position for the president to take.

00:07:03.440 That wasn't, he didn't say,

00:07:04.520 I want this felon in possession in Fresno prosecuted right now.

00:07:11.360 That would be a problem.

00:07:12.860 But I think Blanche being the way he's been, the indictment of Comey, the indictments against Letitia James, I mean, these are so obviously baseless and motivated purely by the mistake, true social post that he put out publicly that he was meaning to send as a direct message to Pam Bondi when he said, let's go, Pam.

00:07:39.740 And you really think that was a mistake?

00:07:41.520 You think that was legitimately a mistake?

00:07:43.880 I do.

00:07:44.680 I do think it was a legitimate mistake because I've seen him make those mistakes before.

00:07:48.700 Now, I don't think he's upset about it.

00:07:51.220 Right.

00:07:51.680 I just don't think he intended it.

00:07:53.180 I think he intended it as a private pressure using that vehicle as a way of saying to her,

00:07:59.640 if you don't do this now, I'm going to do this publicly.

00:08:02.680 I think it was going to be a two-step.

00:08:04.420 He may have eventually wound up doing it publicly, but maybe in a different way.

00:08:08.360 And having known him all these years, that's the way he operates. And so I think, Blanche, when you look at, I would say three things. Yeah, the settlement. Yes, taking direction on criminal prosecutions on individuals.

00:08:26.480 And then third, firing people in the Justice Department, both as prosecutors and the FBI, for having done work on cases they were assigned to do.

00:08:39.340 Like, look, when I was U.S. Attorney, Gov, if I went down the hall to a prosecutor and I had 140 of them working for me when I was U.S. Attorney, if I went down the hall and said, hey, Jim, new file we've got, I want you to work on this.

00:08:56.480 And he looked at it and said, you know, I have a philosophical problem with this and I don't want to do it.

00:09:02.740 I'd be like, well, Jim, we call that private practice.

00:09:06.920 You can now go to private practice and you can have whatever philosophical, you know, objections your employer would let you have.

00:09:14.560 But here, if the boss asks you to do a case and there's not an ethical, this is not ethical, right, Jim?

00:09:21.760 No, no, not an ethical concern.

00:09:23.520 I just don't like it.

00:09:24.360 okay can't do that instead it's like he went to these people they they did the job they needed to

00:09:32.420 do and then he fires them subsequently because they just did their job and you know they did

00:09:41.140 what they needed to do on that I don't think it was appropriate but they pardoned all the January

00:09:46.040 6th people he pardoned everybody that he felt you know got a raw deal on that I disagree with it but

00:09:53.320 he did it that's a presidential power so why'd you have to fire the prosecutors

00:09:58.120 it just did their job so i think blanche permitting that the settlement and then

00:10:05.720 absolutely directing people about individuals who should or should not be prosecuted

00:10:10.500 to me those three things are are in combination disqualifiers and you're less concerned about

00:10:17.260 being a private attorney for the president united states i mean i i heard a little bit of

00:10:22.560 Senator Kennedy making the point, obviously reminding us of a prior Kennedy administration, appointing a brother, obviously members of law firms that were partners, et cetera.

00:10:31.400 I mean, that's as unbecoming as that may be, that's not necessarily a threshold, a line that is being crossed necessarily.

00:10:39.340 No, I wouldn't say that's a line, because I think it's how you conduct yourself once you're there.

00:10:44.260 Because let's face it, yeah, Bobby Kennedy is an example.

00:10:46.460 John Mitchell is an example on the bad side, right?

00:10:49.560 And look, a lot of people could argue Eric Holder was that too, but was a real personal friend and had handled things for then Senator Obama, and he made it the AG. So look, I have appointed people when I was governor, because unlike your state, that's why you want to be governor of New Jersey in one respect, Gavin, because I appointed attorney general, you know, and everybody else, nobody gets elected except for the governor in New Jersey.

00:11:16.960 interesting you know and so i appointed the ag and i appointed people who have been friends of

00:11:21.560 mine who i practiced with over time never someone who was my lawyer but someone people that i was

00:11:27.240 friendly with of course but they understood and i explained to them that you're never going to get

00:11:31.980 a call from me about a criminal case as governor and i don't ever want to get a call from you

00:11:35.960 like i don't want to know you want heads up though you want heads up at the end well once but then

00:11:42.800 it's over they've decided to make a charge decision right yeah so that way i can't have

00:11:46.520 any influence over it like if they say hey tomorrow we're indicting mr x okay i need to

00:11:52.660 know that so i can comment on it appropriately when i get confronted with it but i don't want

00:11:58.060 to know anything before that and never did so i'm okay with the personal relationship part of it as

00:12:03.380 long as you conduct yourself differently now given the positions like you know once a good

00:12:10.500 friend of mine was attorney general he couldn't like you know give me heads ups on stuff that

00:12:16.280 were still you know percolating not appropriate and he knew that that was the way i wanted to

00:12:22.200 conduct myself and by the way any ethical lawyer who took that job would know it too

00:12:26.560 because right now i think we have a justice department that is um completely untrusted

00:12:35.000 by the American people. And to me, the Justice Department and our judiciary are the things

00:12:41.660 that distinguish us from every other democracy in the world. And I think the next president

00:12:47.040 of the United States, Republican or Democrat, whoever it is, if they're serious about fixing

00:12:55.180 the Justice Department, they should find a person of the other party that they trust in and trust

00:13:01.560 in their integrity and appoint them attorney general. Because it won't fix it completely,

00:13:07.660 but it will drain the immediate assumption that, oh, well, this guy or this woman is only going

00:13:14.600 to do things that are in the benefit of their own party and against the other party. I think

00:13:19.620 it would be a great symbolic move. Now, it has to be someone who has integrity and who you trust

00:13:24.740 to do the right thing and who will follow policy positions of the president,

00:13:28.820 even if they maybe wouldn't be the way they would do it.

00:13:33.200 But I think the bigger goal would be to restore trust in our Justice Department,

00:13:38.020 because right now any objective observer can't say that these guys are doing the job the right way.

00:13:42.940 And if you're, you know, if you're subjective and you're Team Trump,

00:13:46.940 you're saying we're just, you know, we're rebalancing things from the abuse,

00:13:53.000 the lawfare of the prior administration where they were out of control.

00:13:56.940 They ran roughshod. They, you know, so we're just, you know, even if we're not rebalancing it, we're playing the same playbook.

00:14:04.760 What do you say to that?

00:14:06.780 Well, I would like to have a president who was above that.

00:14:10.160 Now, if you believe that that's what Joe Biden and Merrick Garland did, and that's what certainly a large cadre of Trump supporters and the president himself believes.

00:14:21.400 You know, my mother taught me two wrongs don't make a right.

00:14:25.020 You know, and that if you're going to conduct yourself in the same way, if you believe that Joe Biden, that the prosecutions under the Biden administration of Donald Trump were politically motivated and wrong, if you believe that some of the treatment that Hunter Biden initially got was favoritism and wrong.

00:14:45.220 So you go you go in as the next guy in charge and say, OK, well, I'm going to do the same thing for my friends and the same thing to my opponents.

00:14:52.920 you know our country's better than that our people are better than that and just because

00:14:57.960 we have a president right now who isn't better than that and who some people argue that president

00:15:03.080 biden wasn't better than that at some point someone in my view if you aspire to be president

00:15:08.820 united states has to break the cycle and say i'm not going to be that person yeah sure i think this

00:15:15.240 or that was unfair maybe i would have done it differently but you know what what we're going

00:15:19.140 to get back to is fair and objective evaluation of the facts and the law. And we're going to hold

00:15:26.720 everybody accountable, whether you're a billionaire or whether you're a person who has no means at

00:15:32.120 all, whether you're politically influential or whether you don't know a thing about politics.

00:15:36.040 If you violate the law, you're going to be held to account. And look, when I was U.S. attorney,

00:15:40.740 we did 130 political corruption prosecutions against both parties, and we did not have one

00:15:46.880 defeat. We were 130-0. And what I used to say to people is, that's because we made the decision

00:15:52.600 based on the facts. We never made a decision based upon politics. And it was about 60-40

00:15:57.960 Ds to R's, which is about what our registration is in New Jersey. And that wasn't something I

00:16:05.800 planned, but the natural course took effect. And when you continue to convict people, I say to

00:16:12.420 people all the time. If you thought that any of my prosecutions were political, I'll address that

00:16:17.660 with a line of acquitted people. And there were none because we did it the right way. We did it

00:16:24.580 based on the facts. I think the American people would be really, really hungry for that type of

00:16:33.260 approach to give them confidence again that the FBI and all the other agencies under DOJ are

00:16:39.100 working for them, not working for the guy or woman sitting in the Oval Office exclusively.

00:16:45.120 So you don't buy Blanche's argument that he's a member of the cabinet,

00:16:48.780 he's part of the executive team, and to the extent that he's carrying out the vision and

00:16:54.600 direction of the president, that's completely appropriate on the basis of the constitutional

00:16:59.060 framework. And nothing's deviant in that respect. Gov, I buy it, as we talked about before,

00:17:06.940 from a policy perspective. So like if you're the attorney general and the president of the United

00:17:11.920 States says, look, I got elected and I ran on the idea that we're going to be very aggressive on gun

00:17:17.680 crime. Well, then you're a member of the cabinet and the president's giving you that direction.

00:17:23.380 That's appropriate. But if you're the president of the United States and you say to your attorney

00:17:27.400 general, I ran in part on the basis that I was going to convict every lousy Democrat I could

00:17:33.460 find who had said a bad thing about me i say no thanks i don't want the job there you go and if

00:17:40.760 i've already had the job and you take that position then i say no like bill barr by the way

00:17:46.600 said no at the end of trump's first term what he wanted bill barr to bring matters on the

00:17:51.400 what he called the election rigging and and bill barr as it's been reported uh said this is all 0.97

00:17:58.540 bullshit to the president of the Oval Office. Well, guess what? As attorney general, you have 0.98

00:18:03.160 an obligation to do that, to look at the president of the United States and say, no, sir, this is

00:18:08.300 unethical and it's wrong. So I believe Blanche's theory to the water's edge. Yes, on issues of

00:18:17.540 broad policy of where we are going to spend our law enforcement resources, the president absolutely

00:18:24.420 has the right to set those priorities but he does not have the right to tell me who to prosecute

00:18:30.440 and who not to prosecute because once you go over that line you're lost you got it lost and then

00:18:35.840 it's all politics and it's not right yeah i mean any impossible to argue with you what what what

00:18:42.920 do you make a bar by the way supporting blanche's nomination bill bill bar's a company man and he's

00:18:51.120 making these judgments i think based in part by his status within the party and the legal community

00:18:59.840 and and i think you know i i know bill barr have great respect for him i think he was

00:19:05.360 a very good attorney general both times but um on this one he and i just fundamentally disagree and

00:19:12.340 i think um he of all people should know better right having been subjected to it yeah what what

00:19:19.580 What happened with Pam Bondi? I mean, obviously we talk about that true social, but I mean,

00:19:23.900 was that indicative of that? Was that revelatory of what the real issue was? Was it competency

00:19:28.840 or was it just incapacity to actually deliver on the vendetta or at least direction?

00:19:34.620 I think it was a lack of competency to execute on his agenda. So it's both combined. But the

00:19:42.780 lack of competency, he wasn't concerned about the lack of competency on anything else. It was like,

00:19:47.120 you can't deliver on my agenda because you can't pull the levers of power in a way that give me

00:19:53.260 what i want and i also think that she got very careless in the beginning on the epstein issue

00:19:59.280 you know she said a lot of things she got on fox and she thought you know she said whatever the

00:20:03.920 hell she wants oh yeah i've got the i've got the list the client list on my desk yeah you know and

00:20:09.020 then it turns out there really isn't the client list well now how do you how do you convince the

00:20:12.820 conspiracy theorists that that's true and and it upsets the president i think appropriately so

00:20:18.940 that if he's got his attorney general out there saying stuff on that sense of an issue to the

00:20:23.320 victims of this guy um that they want justice against the men who engaged in this contact with

00:20:30.160 epstein that they have every right to be upset about that so i think the competency piece reared

00:20:35.560 its head in the epstein stuff because she was very careless with the statement she made and i think

00:20:41.400 didn't completely appreciate the importance of the words that come out of the mouth of an attorney 0.99

00:20:45.760 general of the united states blanche on the other hand is much more careful in that way much more

00:20:52.320 competent in that way and some might say more dangerous as a result in that way if he's guided

00:20:58.500 by the president's stuff now you know i mean he made he made the slip up today uh when when uh i

00:21:05.900 think it was kennedy you asked him are are you friends with the president yeah he said well i'm

00:21:10.500 his lawyer and he goes i mean i was his lawyer you know that was one of those times where todd

00:21:17.140 blanche he's usually very careful about that stuff that wasn't a good one and i guarantee you

00:21:22.300 if you and i watch some some cable news tonight um we're going to see that one repeated over

00:21:27.720 and over you're not going to see much else from senator kennedy's cross-examination because there

00:21:32.100 wasn't one i mean just layups layups t-ball in the vernacular of the mets senator brit senator

00:21:37.580 Britt I I was watching some of that that was all I have um Senator Schmidt I mean you know look

00:21:44.040 they're gonna vote the way they're gonna vote they're they've been elected the United States

00:21:47.740 Senate they have the right to do that but don't try to sell me on the fact that this is an

00:21:52.200 objective examination like if you've made up your mind and you're in the tank okay you know you'll

00:21:58.480 be judged by your voters on that basis at some later date but you know don't try to tell me that

00:22:03.680 like you're being objective about it i think kennedy just kind of um he was trying to set up

00:22:09.300 the jfk rfk yeah comparison and never thought that blanche would actually trip over that one 0.90

00:22:16.360 yeah so kennedy's like damn man i'm trying to be i'm trying to help you here 0.90

00:22:21.100 what are you doing when you look objectively at the epstein files and i don't want to go down 0.96

00:22:27.320 too much down the Epstein lane, but are we ever going to know the facts or do we know the facts?

00:22:34.480 Are we all just sort of, I mean, do you feel satisfied with the millions of documents that

00:22:39.000 are out and the millions that are not out? Then do you buy the argument? They're just tangential?

00:22:44.420 No, I don't, I'm not satisfied with it. I think if you're going to release it,

00:22:49.160 release everything that's there because of the way, quite frankly, everyone has politicized this

00:22:55.800 issue. You know, both sides have used it to their benefit. Like, I didn't hear a whole lot of

00:23:02.640 Democrats on Capitol Hill when President Biden was there, you know, pounding the table to get

00:23:07.880 the Epstein files out, right? So, you know, I think both have played it for their own political

00:23:12.760 purposes. And obviously, President Trump had a personal element to it as well, because he knew

00:23:17.420 he was going to be in there a bunch. So he didn't want that out there either. But here's my problem

00:23:22.840 with it i remember i was in office when this happened at the justice department when he got

00:23:29.520 the first sweetheart deal you remember that first sweetheart deal for epstein was a federal

00:23:35.260 prosecution that sentenced him to a state charge ultimately that put him in county jail but he

00:23:44.260 only had to go at night he slept there and they would get out in the morning and go and do whatever

00:23:50.100 he was going to do and then went back at night um i remember at the time um and and by the way

00:23:56.420 that was alex acosta was the u.s attorney then a name which became familiar because he wound up

00:24:01.700 in president trump's cabinet in the first term as the labor secretary but that's the part i want to

00:24:08.960 know because all of us at the time we're talking to each other other u.s attorneys saying what the

00:24:16.120 hell is that deal like what's Alex doing down there like where did that come from and you know

00:24:23.180 that's what I'd like to know is because that was the original sin because if the guy had been

00:24:30.340 sentenced to a significant amount of time of federal jail time I think a lot of these people

00:24:34.400 would have backed away from him and I think his ability to be able to do what he did would have

00:24:39.840 been lessened if not eliminated but instead he gets what it looks like a slap on the wrist

00:24:45.280 which makes people think he probably didn't do it or maybe he didn't do anything that was all that

00:24:49.640 bad and it renormalizes him so i'd love to find out what the hell was going on in alex acosta's

00:24:56.580 head who put the arm on him who influenced him to make that kind of sweetheart deal because i can

00:25:02.920 tell you at the time there was a whole group of us inside you know individual u.s attorney's

00:25:07.640 offices around the country who watched that one and when we would not be at our conference we'd

00:25:11.820 be like what the hell's why would you ever do that like to me if you're going to give a guy

00:25:18.340 that kind of deal just dismiss the case because that means you didn't have anything but if you 1.00

00:25:23.380 have stuff which we now know they did they had serious crimes against underaged women

00:25:29.720 um how could you do that that one i'll never understand and that's the answer i'd like

00:25:35.000 on on all of this stuff i care less about like who was on his plane and all the rest of that

00:25:41.160 that's a little prurient, I would really want to know, where did the justice system fail

00:25:47.700 in Bush 43 on that issue? And why didn't anybody, Obama, Trump, Biden, try to fix it?

00:25:58.780 And I think they all have to answer for that.

00:26:01.660 There was a sense that Blanche was trying to fix something, wasn't it? When he visited

00:26:06.680 Ghislaine Maxwell in the federal prison, and then she miraculously has shifted to a much nicer

00:26:13.140 facility. What the hell did you make of that? Well, I never saw a deputy attorney general in

00:26:18.800 my time go and individually interview a witness, any witness. That's not what you do. The deputy

00:26:25.980 attorney general is essentially the chief operating officer of the Justice Department.

00:26:29.560 and and his or her job is to run the day-to-day operation of the Justice Department for the

00:26:36.820 Attorney General as a U.S. attorney my direct report is the Deputy Attorney General

00:26:41.820 so all the U.S. attorneys report directly to the to the DAG as they call them right it's the the

00:26:48.820 DAG doesn't have time overseeing the FBI all these other things all the U.S. Attorney's offices

00:26:56.020 Yeah, I'd like to go interview a witness.

00:26:58.320 That was like one time when I was U.S. attorney and I told my staff I wanted to try a case.

00:27:04.020 Because I'd been a trial lawyer in the private sector.

00:27:06.460 And I said, I want to try a case.

00:27:08.000 And I got one of the best bits of advice that I also wound up applying to when I was governor.

00:27:12.960 One of the guys in my executive staff said to me, of course you could try the case.

00:27:17.220 If you wanted to go and try the case, you could tell us you're trying it.

00:27:19.960 We can't stop you.

00:27:20.860 And you'd probably do a really good job.

00:27:22.900 But here's my question for you.

00:27:25.580 Who's doing what only you can do when you're doing that?

00:27:29.200 Yeah.

00:27:30.540 Like, it doesn't make any sense from a managerial perspective or any other place.

00:27:34.520 So that raised questions on me.

00:27:36.700 And then when you have that interview where she says nothing but glowing things about the president, and then she winds up getting into a better federal institution. 0.96

00:27:48.420 Yeah. 0.90

00:27:49.020 I mean, look, people aren't stupid. 0.95

00:27:54.280 Right. 0.63

00:27:54.580 Like, and I'm sure, look, if I were her defense attorney and they asked to interview her, I'd say, well, no, but if you want to, we need this, this, and this.

00:28:08.840 And I'm confident that that's what happened.

00:28:10.780 They made a deal just to get a chance to interview her.

00:28:13.560 And I'm sure that her desire to get to a more comfortable place influenced the nature of her testimony.

00:28:21.740 That's just human nature.

00:28:24.580 yeah so yeah and speaking of human nature you a few people know donald trump better than you

00:28:31.540 and and i let's i want to close on this and move off from epstein but

00:28:35.280 of all the things donald trump has confronted i mean the physiology his temper um his sort of

00:28:43.840 insistent this epstein thing seemed to rub him the wrong way in a profoundly consequence i mean

00:28:48.840 it just seemed to me very different uh the fact that they interviewed gillaine maxwell just

00:28:53.940 everything about this it just it does beg the question what the hell else is there this is not

00:29:02.800 just typical trump this was seemed you know again you know him yeah look i think i'll tell you what

00:29:09.060 i think of i think at a minimum he is profoundly embarrassed by his association with this guy

00:29:17.260 there are very few things that really truly profoundly embarrassed donald trump in my

00:29:22.080 experience. And I think this is one of them. I think he looks back on this. And you've been to

00:29:28.960 Palm Beach, Florida. I've been to Palm Beach, Florida. It's a different culture down there.

00:29:34.680 It's a very wealthy culture that where everybody wants to be buddies with everybody else and whose

00:29:40.360 status is where. And my guess is, you know, Epstein was a big player down there and Trump

00:29:44.560 always likes to be with the big players. And I don't think he really, you know, and this is the

00:29:49.420 best case scenario for him is that he got associated socially with someone that he now

00:29:54.080 looks back on it and says oh man like that's that's horrible and he's horrible and what the

00:30:00.460 hell was I thinking obviously I wasn't thinking that's the best case scenario for him it could

00:30:06.740 be worse I haven't seen any evidence of that yet that make me convinced that it is yeah but I do

00:30:13.580 But I will tell you that the two times in my relationship with him over the last 24 years where I've seen him genuinely embarrassed were this Epstein stuff and when the Access Highwood tape came out. 0.56

00:30:30.620 Now, he recovered from his embarrassment on that.

00:30:34.260 But I will tell you, at the time, I was in the room with him when he saw that tape for the first time.

00:30:40.220 and he was grossly embarrassed by the things he was saying and you could tell just looking at him

00:30:50.880 and his reaction to it and he got very quiet and shaking his head and he was embarrassed

00:30:58.000 because sitting there with us you know were his son-in-law you know Kellyanne Conway

00:31:04.320 hope hicks i mean there were women in the room who he knew and respected

00:31:11.200 and who respected him and then we're having to sit and listen to this and he looked to me that day

00:31:20.180 as embarrassed as i've ever seen him so he has the he has the capacity to be embarrassed

00:31:25.880 but it's got to be pretty bad for that to come out um you know it's not you know not that he

00:31:33.380 says a word he shouldn't say it's it has to be something that's as bad as the stuff he was saying

00:31:38.160 on that access high with tape um and and and that and this epstein stuff i think i've seen the same

00:31:44.300 kind of reaction well canadian women are looking for more more to themselves their businesses

00:31:50.200 their elected leaders and the world around them and that's why we're thrilled to introduce the

00:31:54.700 honest talk podcast i'm jennifer stewart and i'm katherine clark and in this podcast we interview

00:32:00.460 Canada's most inspiring women, entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers,

00:32:06.160 all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll

00:32:10.760 join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you listen to your

00:32:15.160 podcasts. What's up, fam? I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers. Hey, what's up, y'all? It's your

00:32:21.000 girl, Sam J. And we're the hosts of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, a new podcast from

00:32:25.360 Together and iHeart Women's Sports. Because let's be real, women's sports is giving us way too much 1.00

00:32:30.320 to talk about these days. 1.00

00:32:31.640 So Kelsey Finler,

00:32:32.800 she became the first female solo rower

00:32:36.280 to go from California to Hawaii.

00:32:38.340 My first thought is,

00:32:39.160 like, what's up with the snacks?

00:32:40.480 Like, what are we eating?

00:32:42.300 The highlights, the rivalries,

00:32:43.740 the breakout stars,

00:32:44.460 the moments that take over

00:32:45.480 your entire timeline.

00:32:47.340 And the conversations

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00:32:54.720 Naomi Osaka showing out. 0.99

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00:33:09.220 Listen to Everyone Watches Women's Sports 0.97

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00:33:12.960 or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:33:17.220 Hey, Portlandia fans.

00:33:18.880 Carrie Brownstein and Fred Armisen here.

00:33:20.820 You know us, or rather, you know them.

00:33:22.620 Tony and Candice, Nina and Lance, Spike, and yes, the chicken.

00:33:26.900 We've played a lot of iconic characters over the years,

00:33:29.100 But today we're showing up as ourselves to tell you about Podlandia, A.O. Rewatch, our brand new podcast.

00:33:35.320 Each week, we'll revisit an episode of Portlandia from the very beginning, breaking down the sketches, exploring the backstories of our most iconic characters, revisiting the Portland locations you know and love, and opening up about our creative process.

00:33:48.580 How did any of this get made? Why do we think that was a good idea? We're ready to talk about it.

00:33:53.460 And we'll also be joined by the people who helped bring it all to life, guest stars, collaborators, and friends, including director Jonathan Kreisel, the mayor himself, Kyle McLaughlin, legendary musician Amy Mann, and many more.

00:34:05.680 Kyle is going for it here. You fully improvised, not just words, but a song, a melody.

00:34:11.260 Well, I thought he was going to write, I thought you were all going to write a song.

00:34:13.480 I remember you thinking that.

00:34:15.740 Listen to Podlandia Ayo Rewatch on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:34:23.460 My first guest is Paris Houghton, Shakira, Luke and Yerin, Samira and Gracie.

00:34:35.460 I'm so excited.

00:34:36.460 On a bouncy bed.

00:34:37.460 You have surprises.

00:34:38.460 Many surprises.

00:34:40.460 Welcome to Sweet 305, where the group chat comes to life.

00:34:43.460 What up?

00:34:45.460 It's like a way to say,

00:34:47.460 Hola, amiga, hola, mejor amiga, hola, hermana.

00:34:49.460 What up?

00:34:50.820 Mira, nunca lo había hablado con nadie. 0.51

00:34:53.220 Excepto con mis hijos.

00:34:54.100 Mis hijos sí saben.

00:34:56.720 Yes.

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00:35:01.560 Ya, la telenovela.

00:35:03.260 You're the only person I know that loves a yellow starburst.

00:35:06.220 It's lemonade.

00:35:07.560 No hay alguien que te falta, como que tú dices,

00:35:10.100 me gustaría colaborar con esta persona.

00:35:14.660 This is Sweet 305.

00:35:16.560 Listen to Sweet 305 with Lele Pons as part of my Cultura podcast network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:35:26.320 24 years, you know, and a son-in-law whose father served 24 months, Charles Kushner, and was pardoned by the president, became ambassador to France.

00:35:38.480 You ever expect that to happen?

00:35:41.960 Well, certainly not when I brought the case in 2004.

00:35:44.880 I guarantee you that if you had told me in 2004, well, once he gets out to ultimately be pardoned and become ambassador to France, I would have referred you for counseling.

00:35:56.660 So no, when you have a guy who hires a prostitute for $25,000 to pursue his sister's husband, seduce him, videotape it, and then send the videotape to your own sister on the day of her son's engagement party, an engagement party that you're going to attend, that to me is not the resume of an ambassador to France. 0.97

00:36:26.660 Um, that to me is what I've called him, which is he is the most, um, disgusting defendant 0.67

00:36:35.320 that I prosecuted in the seven years I was there.

00:36:38.500 Wow.

00:36:39.180 There are a lot of people who did things that were objectively worse, but when you put add

00:36:47.220 to this, this is a guy of enormous privilege, enormous privilege of a really a blessed life.

00:36:55.680 his parents holocaust survivors come they come to this country they establish a business that

00:37:03.280 he inherits to his credit he grows the business he becomes at the time the second richest person

00:37:09.640 in my state enormous political influence in the democratic party and and uh you know for that guy

00:37:19.060 to then have within him the character to do that to his own sister? Why? Because she had been

00:37:25.860 subpoenaed by my office on the grand jury investigation we were pursuing against him

00:37:30.320 for tax fraud and federal election fraud. And when he found out that she complied with the subpoena,

00:37:37.480 that's when he made the decision to do this, to send her a message. I mean, I don't know what

00:37:42.200 you call that kind of person, Gov, but at best we could say a very bad guy. And

00:37:48.700 And, you know, if you had told me back then, oh, wait till you see what happens.

00:37:52.580 His son, who's in college at the time, is going to marry Ivanka Trump.

00:37:58.220 Yeah.

00:37:58.860 And Donald Trump is going to run for president and win.

00:38:03.780 Yeah.

00:38:04.360 No, that was not something that was on my bingo card.

00:38:06.640 I guarantee you that.

00:38:07.820 And I imagine, I mean, is it true?

00:38:10.780 Did I read this correctly or listen to you say something about the president trying to

00:38:17.560 get Trump trying to get you to get a little more op research on the family to try to break up the

00:38:22.560 prospects of engagement to get Tom Brady. Tell us about it. Is that true? That's actually a true

00:38:27.780 story? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And he asked me to go out to dinner, me and Mary Pat, actually,

00:38:36.760 with he and Melania. And he said to you, ultimately, after talking about how concerned

00:38:42.840 he was about it and which I thought was legitimate like as a father like my daughter's marrying into

00:38:48.920 this family like what the hell and then he said to me but I know that you must have more dirt on him

00:38:56.160 that you've gotten the investigation than you put out there can you share that with me so I can use

00:39:03.260 it and I said to him you probably don't know first of all I can't tell you whether I do or I don't

00:39:09.080 But let's assume for the sake of argument that I do.

00:39:12.220 Now, I was still U.S. attorney at the time this was happening.

00:39:15.600 So let's assume that I do.

00:39:17.600 I said, that's covered by Rule 6E of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, which don't permit me to make any of that public in any way.

00:39:25.020 In fact, it's a crime for me to do it.

00:39:27.880 And he leaned over and put his hand on my forearm and he said, Chris, it'll just be between us.

00:39:36.240 And Melania burst out laughing.

00:39:39.080 And she looked at me and she said, Chris, if this is something that will get you in trouble, don't give it to him because he can't keep a secret.

00:39:46.060 And, yeah, that was the event.

00:39:47.640 And I, you know, I just, by the way, later on, you know, he invited me to the wedding.

00:39:55.680 Wow.

00:39:56.620 Which I respectfully turned down.

00:40:00.480 And just said, go to the wedding.

00:40:02.340 I put the father of the groom in jail, whether he deserved it or not.

00:40:06.300 Like, this is a great day for them and their family.

00:40:08.780 their son's getting married, like, he needs to have me sitting at table 14, you know, like,

00:40:14.620 looking over at him. He's like, yeah, there's the guy who put me to jail. I'm glad he's here

00:40:17.800 tonight. I mean, I said, Donald, I can't do that. Like, I'm not doing it. I said, we'll send a very

00:40:23.500 nice gift, and I appreciate the invite, but no, I'm not going to show up there. Like, come on.

00:40:30.400 No can do. And this was allegedly all to get, not only to learn more about his future

00:40:37.180 son-in-law and their family but also to try to get Ivanka together with Tom Brady well that part

00:40:44.340 was not brought up at dinner so I don't know I've heard him say any number of times that

00:40:48.380 his preference was to have Tom Brady as his son-in-law as opposed to Jared Kushner and

00:40:53.780 maybe we can all understand that but um yeah that was not part of the dinner the Brady thing

00:40:59.240 you know was stuff he said publicly later so he didn't draw that direct connection

00:41:04.000 He was just looking to get any information he could on the family.

00:41:09.000 And one of the things I said to him that night was, isn't what's out in public enough?

00:41:15.040 Like, I'm not going to tell you whether I have more or not, but like, do you really need more?

00:41:21.760 I mean, the guy, you know, the guy sent a hooker to his own brother-in-law and then sent the tape to his sister.

00:41:30.040 I mean, so what's the character, Governor, what's the character that he would invite you, Trump?

00:41:37.140 Is it just for the show, to the wedding?

00:41:39.800 I mean, just to create?

00:41:40.660 Oh, I think so.

00:41:41.360 Just so he can enjoy just all the mishigash. 0.93

00:41:44.060 I mean, look, he's a collector of people. 0.76

00:41:47.960 And I was at his wedding in 05 to Melania.

00:41:52.420 And, Gov, if you would have seen the people there, it was the craziest cross.

00:41:57.320 Well, Bill and Hillary were there.

00:41:58.900 Yeah, yeah.

00:42:00.040 um yeah bill and hillary were there um you know uh don king was there shaquille o'neal was there

00:42:08.280 tony bennett billy joel katie kirk and matt lauer i mean when i tell you it was insane and here i

00:42:17.420 am i'm the u.s attorney and nobody knows who i am like i'm not a real big public figure at that

00:42:24.220 point. We're walking, Mary Pat and I had parked, and we were walking to the Episcopal Church

00:42:31.620 a couple blocks away for the ceremony. And across the street from the Episcopal Church

00:42:37.100 is this huge set of stands where all the paparazzi are up on the stands to take pictures of everybody

00:42:45.360 who's going in. So we kind of come around the corner and in the view of the paparazzi,

00:42:49.640 and you hear all the cameras start clicking and I mean we're talking probably there probably were

00:42:56.260 50 or 60 photographers on that stand and they're clicking clicking clicking and then someone yells

00:43:04.100 out to me and my wife who are you so that's when you know you're like you're down at the bottom of

00:43:11.300 the of the celebrity list on that one when the paparazzi yell out who are you um so yeah I mean

00:43:16.840 you know he's a collector of people and he had i mean all kinds of different people there um that

00:43:24.900 were all over the place in terms of political affiliation wealth professions he just he wanted

00:43:33.740 people there you know and and you know i i remember you know watch i was stunned when i went in there

00:43:39.920 and I saw President Clinton and Mrs. Clinton there that night.

00:43:45.560 It was wild.

00:43:46.440 Senator Clinton, I guess she was at that point.

00:43:49.280 Yeah, I was stunned.

00:43:50.160 And Don King, I mean, you know, Shaq.

00:43:54.860 I mean, we walked around that cocktail party, my wife and I,

00:43:58.340 as relatively anonymous people, like just loving every minute of it.

00:44:02.680 It was just, it was too funny.

00:44:04.540 Katie Couric sitting behind us, one row behind us at the church,

00:44:08.540 surreptitiously videoing the ceremony in like a this big square purse that she had that she was

00:44:17.480 holding like this and I was like what is she doing as Melania's coming down the aisle and

00:44:22.500 then I figured it out I turned to her I go you're videoing this we're not allowed to video this

00:44:26.680 stuff and she's like shh shh I'm like you're videoing it what are you doing I mean that's

00:44:32.420 the kind of craziness that was going on oh and by the way I was also sitting next to now another

00:44:37.120 new Trump celebrity, U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia, Janine Pirro.

00:44:44.140 Okay.

00:44:44.760 Her then-husband, Albert, were sitting next to me and my wife.

00:44:49.220 So there you go.

00:44:53.220 Where do you, where's the transition from that, Gov?

00:44:55.980 Yeah, well, okay, well, I'm going to connect two dots.

00:44:58.220 The who are you and the transition.

00:45:00.200 I'll tell you who you are in the transition.

00:45:03.040 Fast forward, President-elect Donald Trump.

00:45:06.300 You're the chair, Chris Christie, of his transition.

00:45:10.180 How the hell did that happen?

00:45:12.500 In April of 2016, they were informed by the White House that you needed to designate a chairman of the transition, that this was by statute.

00:45:26.160 You had to designate chairman transition and they had to start to engage in meetings with the White House to, you know, to begin the plan for an orderly transition.

00:45:37.300 And both sides had to do that. Once at that point, by April, there were both nominees apparent in in Senator Clinton and Donald Trump.

00:45:46.080 and the first meeting he sent cory lewandowski to the first meeting at the white house and cory

00:45:55.060 came back and was like this is way over my head like i i i you know i can't do this and and so

00:46:03.740 then trump called me i was sitting governor at the time and he said look you know how to do this

00:46:11.800 stuff you know government like i don't know this stuff nearly as well as you do like would you do

00:46:18.100 this would you chair the transition for me and i actually at the time thought to myself this is

00:46:22.540 great because like i really don't want to be leaving my state and going out and campaigning

00:46:26.540 um for him i i wanted to continue to do my work and i was like good this is a good way for me to

00:46:33.000 do something that's productive for him but it's not going to take me out of state and so i said

00:46:39.820 I said, so all right, I'll do it. The day he's going to officially give me the job was the first

00:46:47.060 day I ever met Jared Kushner. I'd never met Jared before this. And all of a sudden, Trump's in the

00:46:52.720 office telling me that he wants me to do this, et cetera. And like stealthily in the seat next

00:46:59.660 to me comes Jared Kushner making the argument to Trump that he shouldn't give me the job

00:47:04.720 in front of me in front of you oh yeah bad person uh he said you know uh the governor

00:47:14.800 should never brought that case against my father that was a personal matter to be handled by the

00:47:19.880 rabbis and the only thing i said during this entire presentation was i said i didn't know

00:47:27.080 that the rabbis had jurisdiction over title 18 of the u.s code but okay you learn something new

00:47:32.420 every day. And I just let Jared go on and on and on. And Trump is sitting there listening to all

00:47:37.040 this. And Trump's actually defending me. And he's saying, well, if you were a U.S. attorney, you

00:47:41.640 would have brought this case, Jared. I mean, this was a layup. It was a slam dunk. I mean,

00:47:46.940 what are you talking about? And he kept arguing. And finally, Trump looked at me and goes,

00:47:51.980 aren't you going to say anything to defend yourself? And I said, no. I said, if you want

00:47:56.920 to believe the stuff he's saying and you think that disqualifies me from doing a volunteer job

00:48:01.540 for you then don't give it to me i'm okay i'll live and he said no no i want you to do this

00:48:09.320 and um jared said well you're going to regret it to donald and he got walked out so yes that's how

00:48:17.480 i became chairman of the transition that was in april we we set up my former chief of staff

00:48:22.620 became the executive director of the transition we set up a transition that had 200 people working

00:48:29.080 for it mostly in Washington, D.C. I would go to D.C. once a week to engage in the activities in

00:48:37.280 person, but then the rest of the time I was in New Jersey doing it remotely. On the Friday before

00:48:43.480 the election, we presented Donald with 11 volumes of transition plans. We had suggested people

00:48:55.920 for every, at least four, for every cabinet position. I had a group of former U.S. attorneys

00:49:02.580 who volunteered to do the vetting of all those people and provide initial vetting on all those

00:49:09.760 folks. And that was all given to them on the Friday before the election. And then he won.

00:49:15.960 I ran the first two transition meetings after the election, the day after the election,

00:49:20.820 and then Thursday. And then on Thursday, late afternoon, Steve Bannon said he needed to talk

00:49:29.360 to me about something. And I went into Bannon's office at Trump Tower after the meeting was over,

00:49:33.820 the transition meeting was over. And he said, we're going to make some changes to the transition.

00:49:37.220 I said, okay, what are we going to do? And he goes, you. Wow. And I said, who made this judgment?

00:49:44.040 And he said, I'm not going to tell you. It's just, it's been done and that's it. And I said,

00:49:48.060 okay well then i'm going to go downstairs to that bank of cameras i'm going to tell all of them that

00:49:52.220 it was you and then you can deal with that and you know no no no it was it was the kid he called

00:49:59.620 jared the kid he said the kid's been taking a meat axe to you ever since i got here which was

00:50:05.500 in the summer of 16 and he said and and the old man finally just gave in he couldn't take it anymore

00:50:10.360 wow but he sent bannon not he didn't call you directly he sent bannon to do the the

00:50:16.280 No, and the worst yet, he called me that night and asked me what happened.

00:50:20.300 Oh, God.

00:50:21.800 I said, come on, seriously?

00:50:24.460 You want me to believe that Steve Bannon and your son-in-law did this without your permission and without your knowledge?

00:50:29.580 Come on.

00:50:30.860 We've known each other too long for me to fall for that one.

00:50:33.860 And he said to me that night, don't worry, I still want you in the administration.

00:50:38.720 And I said, yeah, no.

00:50:41.640 I said, we're done.

00:50:44.260 And I would not.

00:50:45.600 He offered me Secretary of Labor. I turned it down. He offered me Secretary of Homeland Security. I turned that down. And then ultimately in 2018, when he was firing John Kelly, he offered me White House Chief of Staff. And I turned that down as well. Because I knew I couldn't work for him. I didn't want to work for him. And so I turned those jobs down.

00:51:06.260 So, you know, once you fire someone two days after, you put together what objectively, and Michael Lewis wrote a book about it afterwards, what objectively was an outstanding transition document for him.

00:51:19.140 And literally, they took all of it, Gov, and threw it out.

00:51:22.060 They threw it out.

00:51:22.840 And started over.

00:51:24.000 Yep.

00:51:24.840 And Bannon made a point of it that he took a couple of the binders and threw them in a garbage can in front of a whole group of people.

00:51:33.060 So, okay, it's fine.

00:51:34.660 We saw what the beginning of the Trump administration 1.0 looked like.

00:51:38.860 It looked like, you know, that they had done the transition on the back of a cocktail napkin.

00:51:44.520 But there must have been some of the names in your transition binders that ultimately ended up in key positions.

00:51:49.600 Were there or was it a completely different group?

00:51:52.960 Almost a completely different group.

00:51:54.600 Wow.

00:51:55.200 Almost completely different.

00:51:56.580 I mean, one of the names that I remember for sure that was there was Jim Mattis.

00:52:01.120 He was he was on the list for DOD.

00:52:04.660 but i mean i'd have to go back and look at it it's been a long time but oh and rex tillerson

00:52:11.100 his name was on the list at state but other than that yeah no but you so you stayed you stayed

00:52:19.300 close to him despite all of that enough that again as you suggest you had this opportunity

00:52:24.200 to come back in into the white house as chief of staff after kelly uh what in fact by the way just

00:52:31.040 Just an aside, I'll never forget being in Marine One with Kelly, Kushner, and Trump, where Trump starts telling me the story about Kushner dating Ivanka and how upset he was about it because he really wanted Kushner out of the picture, and he wanted Ivanka to return Tom Brady's phone call.

00:52:51.780 And he's saying it right in front of Kushner, talking about his father in very negative ways, emasculating the poor kid right there in front of us. 0.97

00:53:02.280 And I remember getting out of this after all this bullshit. 1.00

00:53:04.620 And it was just, you know, legendary Trump bullshit. 0.99

00:53:07.420 And Kelly going to me goes, you know, none of that necessarily was true. 0.99

00:53:11.320 I'm like, come on.

00:53:12.760 You know, I mean, the idea that Kelly was trying to cover up.

00:53:16.220 Of course, Kelly was gone, I think, a week later after that, after our little trip to Paradise or Pleasure, California.

00:53:25.200 But we saw the charm. 0.99

00:53:27.060 We saw the bullshit. 1.00

00:53:27.960 We saw that, you know, he's hitting you on your shoulder. 1.00

00:53:30.140 He's hitting me on, slapping me on the knee.

00:53:32.440 All the Trump charm.

00:53:33.840 Was that what kept you in the orbit?

00:53:35.960 Well, what kept me in the orbit was I kept thinking, if I stay on the outside and I'm not answering to him, I have access to him and I can try to make things better.

00:53:47.300 So let me give you an example.

00:53:48.640 An example that I don't know if you really know about that involves you.

00:53:53.360 So in March of 2020, as COVID starts, really revving up, I get a call from the First Lady.

00:54:01.340 They had just gotten back from a foreign trip to India.

00:54:05.040 and she said look he doesn't get how bad this is and but he really respects your ability to

00:54:13.620 handle a crisis I need you to come down here and talk to him about how to handle this and I said

00:54:19.400 Monty I can't just invite myself to the White House and say hey you're screwing this up here's

00:54:23.400 how I'd do it she goes if you tell me you're willing because remember there's no public

00:54:27.500 transportation then airlines weren't flying trains weren't going so she said to me if you tell me

00:54:32.880 you're willing to get in your car right away and drive down here, you'll have an invite to come

00:54:37.640 down here in an hour. And I said, look, if the president asked me to come, I'll come. So, and

00:54:43.060 within 30 minutes, my phone rang and it was the president. And he said, look, I want to talk to

00:54:47.780 you about this COVID stuff. Can you please come down? And I said, all right. And I got in my car

00:54:52.040 and drove the three and a half hours or so from Jersey down to DC. And you hadn't seen him in

00:54:57.720 between i mean that was no you're not talking to him much or anything no i really hadn't seen him

00:55:02.860 i mean every once in a while he'd call because he does that with people as you know to say like how

00:55:08.140 am i doing what do you think okay so he we had contact but not face to face so i go down there

00:55:14.760 and i'm in the oval office for a few hours during that and giving him advice about how to handle

00:55:20.680 covid and at one point he decides to call you while i'm sitting there of course it's on the

00:55:29.540 speakerphone doesn't tell you that he's on the always on the i've been in that oval so many 0.74

00:55:33.700 times a damn speaker phone right now it was about the um the ships hospital ships the oh gosh that's

00:55:42.600 right and he and he says to you you've been so nice to me you've been so good to me i'm gonna send you 0.98

00:55:49.220 the ship. And I've told a number of people this story over time. I said, I got to give Newsom

00:55:55.540 credit because he said, look, obviously, Mr. President, we could use the ship and we need it,

00:56:02.540 but I really want to urge you to make the decision on this based upon whether or not

00:56:07.580 it's more needed here in California or in Washington state. And whatever the statistics

00:56:12.920 show, that's where you should go. And he says to you, bullshit to that. That guy up in Washington 0.99

00:56:20.180 has been lousy to me. He says horrible things about me. You've been saying really good things 0.62

00:56:24.720 about me publicly. So I'm sending you the ship. And you push back again and say, I'm not saying

00:56:33.360 I don't want the ship. What I'm saying to you, Mr. President, is I want the ship to go to the place

00:56:39.160 where the most people can benefit from it.

00:56:42.180 And if that's California,

00:56:43.620 we will work with you to make it seamless.

00:56:46.280 But if it's Washington,

00:56:47.440 I don't want to take that away from them

00:56:50.180 if they need it more.

00:56:51.820 And he gets really frustrated with you.

00:56:53.980 And he goes, all right,

00:56:55.260 well, I'll decide what I'm going to do.

00:56:56.400 I'll call you later.

00:56:57.460 And he gets off the phone and he looks at me

00:57:00.120 and he says, can you believe that?

00:57:02.080 And I go, well, yeah, it's the right thing.

00:57:04.700 And Pence walked into the room during it.

00:57:07.800 and i said look send it where it's needed the most that's it that should this is one of the

00:57:14.160 things i'm trying to talk to you about here this stuff will all be examined with a microscope

00:57:18.160 you need to make these decisions on the basis of what the it what the data shows you what the

00:57:23.480 information shows you so that you can justify the decisions you've made because even some of those

00:57:28.440 decisions are going to turn out to be wrong and i said so but at least if you can say i made it

00:57:32.700 based on the facts you'd be okay and and he and he says to me you know i used to think you were smart

00:57:39.460 and that was it that was the end of the conversation but you were on the phone i'm

00:57:45.480 listening to you really trying to be diplomatic yeah and like deal with him and not piss him off

00:57:54.640 but also not be on this phone willingly accepting something that maybe you're one of your you know

00:58:03.440 regional states needed more and you try to navigate that and it was it was classic you did

00:58:09.620 it very well and i've told people that story about you a number of times i was like you know 0.97

00:58:13.700 the governor handled it really well he didn't say no stand him on all this other shit but he was okay

00:58:19.220 there i remember i remember that call anything else newsome does but that was everything 0.91

00:58:23.660 i appreciate uh boy i remember that call i remember hanging up and uh i remember getting

00:58:29.340 the follow-up call uh within i don't know hours or the next day the ship came down to los angeles

00:58:36.380 yeah and he followed through he he told me uh because i was in the oval office probably that

00:58:42.060 day for three or four hours and he told me near the end of my time uh that i was there he goes

00:58:50.560 and by the way i'm sending the ship to newsome and i'm like okay like all i can do is give you

00:58:58.840 the best advice i said to him i said all i'm gonna do is give you the best advice i can give you mr

00:59:02.180 president whether you take it or not it's completely up to you i said believe me i understand that i

00:59:07.120 used to sit in a chair that is similar to yours and people can give you advice but if you if you

00:59:12.960 don't want to take it you don't want to take it i said so you know it said that to newsome said that

00:59:16.880 to newsome yeah it's not the way it should have worked but it was so obvious the way things

00:59:21.840 operated there and so we maintained that relationship throughout covet and we always had

00:59:26.480 an open i mean it was i i continue to say it it was extraordinarily collaborative relationship and

00:59:31.020 there were a few things i ever asked where the answer was no um and that's why i was cautious

00:59:35.940 about what I asked for on the basis of just, you know, just decency, objectivity, and the larger

00:59:42.000 macro issue that was hardly unique just to my home state, right? Thank you.

00:59:46.100 And you're trying to, you know, ball in the right way. But it is, it is very typical of the way he

00:59:53.180 operates as you now. It is, you know, who's nice to me, I'll be nice to them. And it's whether

00:59:59.520 it's gavin newsom or whether it's kim jung-un right he was nice because kim jung-un you know

01:00:09.320 wrote him nice letters and and so letters love letters yeah and they're beautiful the chris you

01:00:15.380 got to read them they're beautiful i said i don't think i'm permitted to read them i don't think i

01:00:19.140 still have the clearance anymore to read them and he goes stop he like flips this folder over to me

01:00:25.120 I'm like, oh, my God, I'm sure violating some type of, you know, thing here.

01:00:30.240 But OK, president's telling me I can read them.

01:00:32.540 But I mean, it's very similar, right?

01:00:34.300 I mean, it's it's it that's him.

01:00:36.580 He wants to be loved.

01:00:38.540 Yes.

01:00:38.900 For people who are very nice to him, he can be very generous.

01:00:43.200 But if you don't do exactly what he wants you to do every time.

01:00:49.680 All the goodwill that you built up is gone.

01:00:52.920 You got it.

01:00:53.500 Hey, I'm Ruby Carr, the host of the podcast, Encore.

01:00:56.900 Check out our brand new episodes featuring music from the show that everyone is reheating as we speak. 0.54

01:01:03.120 Heated Rivalry.

01:01:04.460 Join me as I go behind the songs that brought Shane and Elia together.

01:01:08.240 I'll tell you the stories of Feist, My Moon, My Man, Wolf Parades, I'll Believe in Anything,

01:01:12.820 and Tattoos, All the Things She Said, and how they all became a part of this global phenomenon.

01:01:17.860 Stream Encore on iHeartRadio, Crave, or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:01:23.500 What's up, fam? I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers.

01:01:26.540 Hey, what's up, y'all? It's your girl, Sam Jay.

01:01:28.740 And we're the hosts of Everyone Watches Women's Sports,

01:01:31.000 a new podcast from Together and I Heart Women's Sports.

01:01:33.820 Because let's be real, women's sports is giving us way too much to talk about these days.

01:01:38.260 So Kelsey Finler, she became the first female solo rower to go from California to Hawaii.

01:01:44.780 My first thought is just like, what's up with the snacks? Like, what are we eating?

01:01:48.500 The highlights, the rivalries, the breakout stars, the moments that take over your entire timeline.

01:01:53.980 And the conversations that start during the game and somehow keep going all week.

01:01:57.940 Every week, we're breaking down the biggest stories across women's sports.

01:02:01.340 Naomi Osaka showing out.

01:02:03.480 She beat Sabalenka. 1.00

01:02:05.500 Shout outs to you, Naomi. 1.00

01:02:06.380 You get the palm, Naomi. 0.99

01:02:07.480 You get the palm for that.

01:02:09.220 Because we're not just interested in what happened.

01:02:11.280 We're interested in why everyone's talking about it.

01:02:13.560 Because everyone watches women's sports.

01:02:15.840 Listen to everyone watches women's sports.

01:02:17.320 on the iHeartRadio app,

01:02:18.620 Apple Podcasts,

01:02:19.580 or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:02:23.820 Hey, Portlandia fans.

01:02:25.520 Carrie Brownstein and Fred Armisen here.

01:02:27.440 You know us, or rather, you know them.

01:02:29.260 Tony and Candace,

01:02:30.440 Nina and Lance,

01:02:31.620 Spike, and yes, the chicken.

01:02:33.580 We've played a lot of iconic characters over the years,

01:02:35.860 but today we're showing up as ourselves

01:02:37.680 to tell you about Podlandia,

01:02:39.600 AO Rewatch,

01:02:40.600 our brand new podcast.

01:02:41.880 Each week, we'll revisit an episode of Portlandia

01:02:44.280 from the very beginning,

01:02:45.740 breaking down the sketches,

01:02:47.120 exploring the backstories of our most iconic characters,

01:02:50.060 revisiting the Portland locations you know and love,

01:02:52.580 and opening up about our creative process.

01:02:55.200 How did any of this get made?

01:02:56.840 Why do we think that was a good idea?

01:02:58.720 We're ready to talk about it.

01:03:00.260 And we'll also be joined by the people who helped bring it all to life.

01:03:03.260 Guest stars, collaborators, and friends,

01:03:05.320 including director Jonathan Kreisel,

01:03:07.340 the mayor himself, Kyle McLaughlin,

01:03:09.540 legendary musician Amy Mann, and many more.

01:03:12.300 Kyle is going for it here.

01:03:14.140 You fully improvised, not just words, but a song, a melody.

01:03:17.880 Well, I thought he was going to write.

01:03:18.940 I thought you were all going to write a song.

01:03:20.120 I remember you thinking that.

01:03:22.560 Listen to Podlandia Ayo Rewatch on the iHeartRadio app,

01:03:27.220 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:03:35.180 My first guest is Paris Hilton, Shakira, Luke, and Yerin, Samira, and Gracie.

01:03:41.900 I'm so excited.

01:03:43.040 On the bouncy bed.

01:03:44.140 Do you have surprises?

01:03:45.900 Many surprises.

01:03:47.320 Welcome to Sweet 305, where the group chat comes to life.

01:03:50.320 What up, .

01:03:51.980 It's like a way to say,

01:03:53.820 hello, friend, hello, best friend, hello, sister.

01:03:56.060 What up, .

01:03:57.420 Look, I've never talked to anyone.

01:03:59.780 Except with my children.

01:04:00.700 My children know.

01:04:03.320 Yes.

01:04:04.160 Be my love.

01:04:05.320 Oof. 0.99

01:04:06.820 Punch.

01:04:07.660 That's incredible, the telenovela.

01:04:09.860 You're the only person I know that loves the yellow starburst.

01:04:12.760 It's lemonade.

01:04:14.140 No hay alguien que te falta, como que tú dices,

01:04:16.700 me gustaría colaborar con esta persona.

01:04:21.020 This is Sweet 305.

01:04:23.080 Listen to Sweet 305 with Lele Pons

01:04:25.580 as part of my Cultura Podcast Network

01:04:27.640 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast,

01:04:30.180 or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:04:32.560 And so that's what happened to you, right?

01:04:34.480 I mean, is it true that it was January 6th for you?

01:04:39.200 You're like, okay.

01:04:40.700 You're trying your best to influence them.

01:04:42.740 You're maintaining a two-way relationship in conversations.

01:04:45.560 You're trying to do your best to steer things.

01:04:47.800 But January 6th.

01:04:49.560 No, it was actually election night.

01:04:52.640 If you go back to election night, I was on ABC.

01:04:56.360 And when he came out and gave the speech he did, I looked at George Stephanopoulos.

01:05:02.640 I said, come to me first.

01:05:05.100 And he goes, why?

01:05:06.040 And I said, I won't disappoint you.

01:05:07.780 Come to me first.

01:05:08.660 So he came to me and I said, you know, something to the effect of that's, he couldn't possibly know that this election was stolen. There's no evidence that it was. And even if there were, he couldn't know it at this point. He's undermining the democratic process in the most important election that people participate in for the president of the United States. It's absolutely unacceptable. And it's beneath the office he holds.

01:05:34.060 we then went to commercial and eric trump called me and said we're watching what are you doing 0.99

01:05:42.480 how can you say that you're going to made to be made to look really stupid when we 0.98

01:05:47.060 uncover everything that's gone on here and i said i'm more than prepared to be to be made to look 0.99

01:05:52.900 stupid i said but what he did is wrong you don't say any of that stuff until you have absolute

01:05:57.980 evidence of it and i said and i don't think you're ever going to have that but to the extent you do 0.99

01:06:03.840 I'm happy to admit that I was wrong.

01:06:05.780 I said, but you don't do that.

01:06:07.420 You don't undercut it.

01:06:08.540 And really, he called me, the president called me two days later.

01:06:13.860 Remember, it still wasn't resolved.

01:06:15.080 The election still wasn't resolved.

01:06:16.440 So we were going on the air every night.

01:06:18.460 And he called me and he said to me, yeah, I'm probably not going to win this thing.

01:06:23.480 Like, what do you think I should do?

01:06:26.120 And I said, there's really nothing else to do, Mr. President.

01:06:29.820 I said, you need to call Biden, congratulate him, invite him to the White House, shake his hand.

01:06:34.820 And I said, if you do that, I said, you'll have a good reputation with the American people and

01:06:41.200 whatever else you want to do with your life, it'll be wide open to you. If you don't do that,

01:06:45.560 and this is where I was wrong. I said, if you don't do that, I said, all that's over.

01:06:50.120 And he said, well, I'm not going to do that. What else you got? And I said, I don't have

01:06:55.560 anything else? And he goes, then I have nothing to talk to you about. And we have not spoken since.

01:07:01.940 Wow. Two days after election 2020, we have not spoken since. January 6th just further convinced

01:07:09.800 me that what I had decided on election night was the right decision. But my decision, and really

01:07:16.880 when my contact ended with him, was two days after the election. And we have not spoken since

01:07:22.560 two days after election night did you get a sense i mean that he really believed it i mean is this

01:07:28.240 i mean was this since no i don't think he believed it i think he ultimately convinced himself

01:07:34.140 but i he he was telling me i know this it's it's i'm not gonna win what should i do he wasn't saying

01:07:43.900 at that moment it was chris it was rigged i got all this evidence here's what it is

01:07:48.260 No, I don't think he believed it. But I think he has said this any number of times to me. If you say something enough times, it becomes true.

01:07:57.400 Yeah, come on. And and and I think that's really where he got to with the election.

01:08:03.280 And when you look at even today, I saw Jay Clayton unwilling to answer at his confirmation hearing to answer who won the 2020 election.

01:08:13.600 I mean, I'm going to answer it. Right. And I know Jay Clayton. He's a smart guy. And I've always gotten along well with him. Like, I couldn't believe it when I saw that, that he was refusing to answer that question. But it's what that's why when you go back to even what my instincts were back in 17 and 18 and why I didn't take any of those jobs.

01:08:36.400 It's because I know I can't do that. 0.98

01:08:39.840 My personality is not such where I could go in there and, you know, just absolutely believe a pile of bullshit from the president and then go out and sell it. 0.98

01:08:51.260 Like, look, we've all been in politics for a long time. 0.97

01:08:54.220 There are times when you spin certain things and whatever, and it's not lying.

01:08:58.740 It's like putting the best face on something.

01:09:01.440 What Jay Clayton did today was just refuse to tell the truth.

01:09:05.700 And I knew I could never do that, and that's why I never accepted any of the jobs.

01:09:08.620 The only thing I would ever do for him, I did the Opioid Commission, because of how much I care about that issue, how much we had done in New Jersey on it.

01:09:16.200 And I did the Opioid Commission.

01:09:17.700 It was limited.

01:09:18.660 There was really no interaction with him.

01:09:20.780 I went out with Charlie Baker and Roy Cooper and Patrick Kennedy, and we did hearings around the country.

01:09:26.360 We came up with a report that formed the basis of the No Pain Act that Congress did, and I'm really proud of what we did there. 0.56

01:09:33.520 but that's because and and he actually he's you know he's not dumb as you know like he

01:09:39.680 when he called and offered me that job he goes I'm going to offer you something that you can't

01:09:45.120 refuse even you won't say no to this and he offered me the opioid thing and I said you're

01:09:51.260 right I won't say no to that it's too important he's good go do it for me and make it and make it

01:09:56.060 make it good if you make it good i'll i'll work to get it done and to his credit he did

01:10:01.900 he did and he got that thing passed amen um and i remember that with patrick too i you're reminding

01:10:09.460 me i remember you guys going around the country that uh well done on that and uh look tomorrow

01:10:15.660 night you know we're taping this and uh tomorrow night the president's allegedly i mean it seems

01:10:20.740 to be going back and forth who knows what there are all kinds of leaks about what he is expected

01:10:25.120 to say a primetime speech and some networks suggesting no, Mr. President, may not be a

01:10:29.960 primetime speech because it's suggested this is about election denialism. Once again, going back

01:10:34.980 and relitigating that election. What do you make of that? I mean, is this just a part of the

01:10:39.620 stubbornness, part of the belief now that he's convinced himself of? What do you make of this?

01:10:45.200 Or is this a preview of November? I think it's much more cunning. I think he's trying to change

01:10:53.660 the subject from from iran from inflation from all the things that are going on right now that

01:11:03.400 are not good for him right and he needs his base to be fired up and show up for an election that

01:11:09.920 right now it doesn't look like they're going to show up with great enthusiasm to so i think if

01:11:16.120 he does what's been rumored it's much more cunning it's like okay i gotta distract them

01:11:22.820 from inflation. I got to distract them from affordability. I got to distract them from Iran

01:11:27.800 and that I'm bombing nightly over there again. And the Strait of Hormuz is closed and, you know, 1.00

01:11:34.460 I got to distract them from all that. So what do they really, really believe? My core believe

01:11:40.260 that the election in 2020 was stolen and that it was not only stolen at the presidential level,

01:11:45.460 but it was stolen in the special elections in Georgia for the Senate thereafter. And so if he

01:11:52.380 does it it will not be just that a stubbornness although stubbornness is an element of everything

01:11:58.640 he does it will be because he is tactically looking at this and going this is not going

01:12:05.780 well for me and I got to change the subject and this is about all I can probably get away with

01:12:12.820 trying to do that will also fire up my base and try to get them ready to come out in in November

01:12:18.540 Well, right now, I'm sure he thinks there's not there's not the level of enthusiasm because of the affordability issue, because a lot of his base is very upset about Iran, as you know.

01:12:29.080 So, I mean, I think it's not just independents or Democrats who are upset.

01:12:33.700 It's core, you know, MAGA folks who voted for him because he said no more wars.

01:12:40.060 And now they see him engaging in a war that they believe is purely of choice, not of necessity.

01:12:45.260 Do you, as someone who's known him, student, and obviously out there as a pundit assessing every day this country, do you buy his, and there's a lot of deep politics in this, but that he's the same guy?

01:13:05.180 I mean, talk about, you know, we started with baseball.

01:13:08.460 I mean, obviously, he's not Clemens throwing or Ryan throwing 100 plus.

01:13:13.800 I mean, it seems like an 80 mile hour fastball.

01:13:16.260 I mean, he's lost a lot, hasn't he?

01:13:18.480 I mean, politically.

01:13:19.260 Or do you think there's more cognitive issues?

01:13:21.920 There's physical issues.

01:13:23.440 Do you buy any of that?

01:13:24.800 Or do you think that's just the Democrats and that's folks like me just ginning all

01:13:29.300 that stuff up, that this guy is not the same guy and there's something there that's real.

01:13:33.860 They're there.

01:13:34.260 look I don't think there's anything more than aging like I don't think there is some cognitive

01:13:41.580 issue that is making him incapable of making decisions I think he's just getting older he's

01:13:48.920 80 years old and look you know my my dad is now 93 God bless him he's still alive but my father

01:13:56.660 isn't what he was 20 years ago and he would say that unlike Trump my father would actually admit

01:14:02.900 that um you know but my father is completely cognitively well you know he has no memory

01:14:10.940 loss he has no disorientation he just is slower than he was before and i think that's what's

01:14:17.840 going on with the president and i think that to to give some both you know unrequested um and it's

01:14:25.180 what it's worth advice to democrats is i wouldn't be talking about that stuff yeah it's harder

01:14:32.660 It makes him a martyr.

01:14:33.920 And I think that, you know, Vice President Harris, when she spent so much time in that campaign in the fall of 2024, talking about him as a threat to democracy.

01:14:44.320 Like, look, the people who believe that were already voting for her.

01:14:49.000 The people she needed to get were the people who didn't really like Trump and didn't really like Biden.

01:14:56.260 And they were looking for something different.

01:14:59.340 And here she comes and had an opportunity to say, here's where I'm different than Biden. You know I'm different than Trump. She refused to do that. And I think for Democrats now who are considering running for president, it is going to be so important for them to show the country a third way.

01:15:19.900 and you know that no i'm not joe biden um and i and i just said here's where i disagree with

01:15:28.000 the things joe biden did here's where i think he failed both as a as a leader of our party

01:15:33.680 and as a leader of our country on the other hand you know here's who i am and here's how i'm

01:15:41.740 different and how i'm different than the republican whoever that nominee is how i'm different than

01:15:49.080 our last nominee in Joe Biden and his substitute in Vice President Harris. Because I think

01:15:55.960 people are growing weary of this. They know what they believe about Trump. And for the people who

01:16:03.260 really like him, they're not voting for you anyway. Don't waste your time. You're not going

01:16:08.440 to convince them. As logical as you may think you sound, it doesn't matter. Take my word for it.

01:16:15.160 It won't matter.

01:16:16.220 So, you know, like I had a guy one time when I was running in 24, he said to me, you know,

01:16:24.680 he came to one of my town hall meetings in New Hampshire.

01:16:26.200 And he said, Governor, you're so articulate and you make perfect sense.

01:16:30.500 He goes, what you're saying really rings true with me.

01:16:33.940 And I said, I said, great.

01:16:35.760 I'm glad to hear that.

01:16:36.500 He goes, yeah, but I'm voting for Trump.

01:16:39.160 And I said, why? 0.97

01:16:40.260 And he goes, because those Democrats, they screwed him last time. 0.82

01:16:43.300 And I can't allow that to stand.

01:16:45.160 And that's the point I'm making, is that there are guys like that who believe that Trump's not great for the country, but the Democrats in their rhetoric has so martyred him that they feel like if I'm still a Republican, if I still even have a stripe of red on my shirt, this voter, he feels like I have to do this to fight back against the Democrats who I fundamentally disagree with.

01:17:09.020 so i i just think that as we go forward here for the country's sake there has to be a different

01:17:18.420 approach to this race yeah donald trump do of course he will but he shouldn't be the issue

01:17:24.620 yeah i get it and i look i i i deeply appreciate all of us wanting to turn that page at the same

01:17:31.620 time i mean you've made the point about the corruption the 1.4 billion just on the the

01:17:36.300 crypto alone. And, you know, that this is quote unquote Putin-esque, which I thought, you know,

01:17:41.080 I mean, spot on governor. I mean, the, and what's happening, you know, talk about Jared, but you

01:17:46.420 know, Whitcoff family, the Kushner family and board of peace, which appears to me, they want

01:17:51.020 a piece of the middle East and every trade deal and tariff seems to have an attachment to some

01:17:56.720 tower or golf course or a new, you know, I don't know, a drone company or critical minerals

01:18:02.120 couple that i agree with gov i was responding to you talking about his faculties and all the rest

01:18:07.980 of that in that respect shouldn't be discussed but the corruption stuff i think has real legs

01:18:14.260 politically forward yeah all right and but and how about democracy are you i mean this guy's

01:18:23.020 not letting up i mean we're the you know that we can hyperventilate about mass men around polling

01:18:28.760 places. But, you know, I saw what they did just, you know, with our Prop 50 on election morning,

01:18:33.340 they sent out the Bortak teams at Dodger Stadium to chill, you know, I mean, to make it, you know,

01:18:39.160 they were sending a message to our diverse communities. The Truth Social that came out 0.91

01:18:42.640 before the polls were open saying the election was rigged. He sent out the DOJ and then they

01:18:47.000 filed the lawsuits hoping to get up, saying to get to the Supreme Court, saying the election was

01:18:51.400 rigged, going after the vote by mail. Obviously, California's front and center and all this,

01:18:55.300 um they're trying to get our voting rolls and purging them obviously what will happen tomorrow

01:19:00.100 night i mean seems to me fair game on democracy and sanctity of elections no or is that like his

01:19:08.420 health from your perspective are we hyperventilating on this it's how you do it i think it's about

01:19:15.180 a precision missile not carpet bombing more give me more explain that what i would say is

01:19:24.080 when he does things like says, we're not going to mail mail-in ballots out unless you give me

01:19:31.260 your voter rolls. Bang. That's one to hit on because people understand that. They go,

01:19:37.620 wait a second. I vote by mail. What do you mean I'm not going to get my ballot just because the

01:19:42.580 governor says I'm not going to give all the private voting information of all the citizens

01:19:47.360 of the state of California to the federal government, which they have nothing to do

01:19:51.420 with the election anyway i think it's about they're tired of hearing he's a threat to democracy

01:19:57.340 they need to hear why why specifically and not why just because he's a tyrant and he's a

01:20:03.940 they're like either they believe that or they don't and nothing you say i think now after

01:20:09.960 donald trump being on the scene for 11 years is going to change that that's right i appreciate

01:20:14.940 They will be offended if they're like, wait a second, my mother, who is 85 years old and doesn't want to go out to the polls, can't vote?

01:20:24.600 What do you mean?

01:20:25.780 That's wrong.

01:20:27.040 You can't do that, Mr. President.

01:20:28.280 I think, and we could probably come up if we sat here for a couple minutes with three or four other examples that I would say to you, yeah, like this speech tomorrow night.

01:20:36.800 If the speech is what it's rumored to be, then you can have a lot of fun with that.

01:20:42.500 like and and people will look at that and go i can't believe we're still hearing about this

01:20:48.000 six years later right and he got re-elected in the interim like what are we doing so it's got

01:20:53.240 to be i think precision stuff because the overall he's a threat to democracy he's a tyrant he wants

01:20:59.220 to run in 2028 even blanche today said no he can't run in 2028 and so when when you have people

01:21:06.780 saying that stuff on the democratic side they you that you diminish the more important argument

01:21:12.500 The more important argument is twofold. One, here are the specific things he's doing that will impact your ability to vote for who you want to vote for, whoever that is. And two, where are we going as a country? What's your children's future?

01:21:28.800 Why can't we educate our kids? Why can't we stand up in this country and make sure that everybody has a right to vote and do so unimpeded and fairly? You start going through those issues. What's our future going to be? What are we going to look like? Who do you want us to look like?

01:21:49.340 like as as a candidate and as a voter i'm asking you who do you want us to look like

01:21:55.240 and to me that's the more important stuff i think in the end him being him

01:22:01.520 whatever the democrats can get out of that that the the juice is already squeezed out of that

01:22:08.400 orange yeah well said uh we take back the house you think the senate is there's a real shot i

01:22:15.000 you've been making the case texas i mean you think there's a real shot i think there's a chance i

01:22:19.580 think what happened in vain is really harmful to the cause um because everyone says well platter

01:22:26.100 will be gone and i was with david axelrod this week and he said well platter will be gone new

01:22:30.760 new person will be in and that'll make it better people don't forget that you screwed that up

01:22:34.960 you know they don't forget that you actually nominated a guy who at least has been accused

01:22:40.520 of sexual assault and a whole bunch of other things right so it hurts the democratic brand

01:22:45.760 in maine and and as you know the road is littered with the corpses of people who thought they were

01:22:53.120 going to take out susan collins like a bit of a different animal and we've all seen folks like

01:22:57.740 this over our career who you look at them in a particular state and they're like how the hell

01:23:02.460 do they do it but they do so i think maine's really important in this whole equation but i

01:23:09.400 will tell you this like I think Ohio is in play I think Alaska is in play North Carolina I think

01:23:16.520 is yeah the layup I I've never seen Roy lose in an election I don't think he's going to lose this

01:23:22.420 one um and we all know how boringly competent Roy is and I mean that with him as a friend like

01:23:33.120 Roy's not going to make any mistakes.

01:23:36.520 Let me tell you, man, steady as she goes, he's not going to make any mistakes.

01:23:40.280 They'll try to bait him into stuff and Roy's just going to take the bait, right?

01:23:43.740 So I think that you could wind up, if Maine doesn't come along, I think you could wind up 50-50, which would be really bad for J.D. Vance.

01:23:57.040 J.D. in the center of all this.

01:23:58.720 You think the Democrats can't help themselves and they'll move forward with impeachment?

01:24:03.120 unfortunately yes yeah big mistake huge your perspective huge mistake because look

01:24:10.940 unless there's a there's an absolute sea change you're not going to get 67 votes in the senate

01:24:18.220 so what's the purpose anymore and now he is definitively leaving look i said in 2020 after

01:24:25.760 the election stuff and january 6th i would have voted for removal and the reason i would have

01:24:33.180 voted for removal is because it would have taken him out of the political process forever

01:24:37.340 this is now different he can't come back he's had his two terms so and it's distracting

01:24:45.420 from the future issues we just alluded to and it's playing to it's playing to type

01:24:52.580 for the washington democrats and and that's a bad thing for the party because you know

01:25:00.140 it'll martyrize trump again and that i don't see how that helps the democrat cause to elect a

01:25:08.220 president um and and so i think it'll be a bad move uh do i think they'll do it if they get a

01:25:14.100 majority in the house i don't think they'll be able to help themselves the dsa um and if

01:25:20.380 how legit a concern is the DSA for the democratic party,

01:25:27.720 or is it the best thing that ever happened?

01:25:29.900 Or we're just wildly overstating a few local races in New York and a few

01:25:35.720 others across the country. What's your overall,

01:25:37.720 what's your over under on the whole DSA debate?

01:25:40.460 I'm going to find it.

01:25:41.120 Are you loving it?

01:25:41.900 I say yes.

01:25:44.280 I think it look,

01:25:46.400 I think that when you're talking about presidential politics, to the extent that the DSA becomes more and more prominent over the next two years in the Democratic Party, it's a problem for the Democratic brand and that people will be more apt to want to vote for a Republican if they think they're going to get a very heavily socialist-influenced Democratic Party.

01:26:12.620 um you know the headline today um in new york is about the number of billionaires that have left

01:26:20.700 new york and that we have you know the the lowest percentage of billionaires in new york city that

01:26:27.440 we've had in a certain number of years i remember exactly what it was but it's a long time like you

01:26:32.960 know people see that and yet they don't want more billionaires necessarily but they understand the

01:26:39.340 role that they play in paying a lot of taxes and they don't want that but you know the bigger

01:26:46.480 problem is i think for the dsa is going to be what can they show they accomplish for instance in new

01:26:53.540 york city with mayor mamdani he is an incredibly charming guy and he's a really skilled politician

01:26:59.460 really i've watched him now up close that's my media market for the last six months and the guy's

01:27:06.160 very good gave a great speech at the knicks rally after the parade even that that was

01:27:11.620 right he did all the right things but you know this and i know this in an executive position

01:27:20.640 at some point two things are going to happen one they want to see results on the things you promised

01:27:25.460 and two some crisis is going to come it's going to challenge your ability to manage a crisis

01:27:31.560 and at 34 years old, never having had a real job before.

01:27:37.040 I say to people all the time, like, forget the socialism stuff.

01:27:40.380 I don't think he's going to be able to accomplish most of that.

01:27:43.540 But what is he going to fail to be able to do for New York City

01:27:47.500 because he's not competent enough to do it

01:27:50.140 and doesn't have enough competent people around him?

01:27:52.460 So I think the DSA thing is multilayered.

01:27:56.140 I wish for the sake of your party, but not for the sake of mine,

01:28:00.560 that Bernie Sanders would just go away.

01:28:03.380 Like, enough already?

01:28:04.840 Like, he's running around endorsing all these people

01:28:07.160 and being who he is,

01:28:08.780 and I think that's not helpful for your brand.

01:28:11.980 I think there's a lot of people around the country

01:28:13.980 in your party that have a chance to appeal

01:28:18.000 to a broader electorate.

01:28:20.020 But if you have to go to your convention in 28 0.83

01:28:23.540 and be kissing Bernie Sanders' rear end, 0.98

01:28:26.760 that's a problem. 0.99

01:28:28.600 It's a problem.

01:28:29.460 and it's so you know i think the dsa stuff has a lot of layers to it um notice who's been kind

01:28:37.300 of quiet though lately and i'll just say this because i think she's got some decent political

01:28:41.080 instincts is aoc she's been pretty quiet mom donnie's making all kinds of noise you know

01:28:48.760 there are other people in new york congressional candidates make all kinds of noise i have been

01:28:52.700 really really interested i don't know what it is i don't know what she's up to but i know she's up

01:28:58.700 something because up to this point AOC has been a very loud voice yeah national politics you go

01:29:07.000 back and look and have your staff pull it up this woman since Bomdani is elected has been

01:29:13.080 astonishingly quiet to me astonishingly quiet hasn't endorsed in all these different races

01:29:20.780 hasn't been as big a presence in New York and nationally as she had been before so I don't

01:29:27.940 know what she's up to but i guarantee you she's up to something because she's got some pretty good

01:29:32.340 political instincts and has learned a lot well there's two paths for her right i mean well

01:29:36.580 there's three the status quo ante but obviously the schumer race and uh and then 2028 which right

01:29:43.260 so what is the quiet like i don't know the answer to this question but i know there is an answer

01:29:48.560 out there what does the quiet tell you about what she's intending to do i love it you're a political

01:29:55.520 animals speaking of which can't get you you know we're not done until we talk about the convention

01:30:01.840 that is 2028 on the republican side uh you've said good things or at least in terms of your

01:30:08.440 your positioning uh you've positioned kemp in the mix which is interesting uh people forget um the

01:30:14.920 governor of georgia obviously rubio vance um and in your own prospects i mean you're trying to you

01:30:20.560 know you've been at this a couple times there's a high recidivism rate in the spirit of the

01:30:25.200 and a chance that you could be back in the mix as well.

01:30:30.460 Where's Trump right now?

01:30:32.060 Knowing him, where's his head?

01:30:33.540 He's just enjoying The Apprentice 2.0?

01:30:35.940 He doesn't want anybody to succeed him

01:30:37.980 in the Republican Party.

01:30:41.460 I mean, he'll do something,

01:30:44.740 but I think what he really wants 0.74

01:30:46.520 is for a Democrat to win

01:30:48.460 and say, see, the Republican Party

01:30:53.380 was nothing before I got here.

01:30:55.200 They lost with Mitt Romney and John McCain.

01:30:58.000 And now that I'm gone, they're nothing again.

01:31:00.780 God, I couldn't agree with you more.

01:31:02.560 I think you're spot on.

01:31:03.900 You're spot on.

01:31:05.540 Spot on.

01:31:06.920 That's it.

01:31:07.280 So how does that play out?

01:31:09.280 Then he continues with the having fun and we'll get another 300 stories.

01:31:13.820 Rubio Vance, Rubio Vance, Vance Rubio.

01:31:16.220 Of course.

01:31:17.840 For two reasons.

01:31:19.360 One, because he likes to torture people close to him.

01:31:21.540 and two he it keeps him in the mix he wants to be in the mix as long as possible look

01:31:29.020 what happens the minute he endorses one of them it's over he's over they're it why would he ever

01:31:38.020 want that he don't want that he wants to like go all you know and then what he'll do is if one of

01:31:46.060 them emerges a bit in the primary just before they become the nominee apparent then he'll endorse

01:31:51.580 them and say see I made him I made him by making him vice president or I made him by making him

01:31:57.360 secretary of state and then just when the race was going to really be in jeopardy I endorsed him and

01:32:03.160 brought him over the finish line and I think that's what he'll probably do with one of those guys but

01:32:08.580 I would say this if I were both of them I'd be wondering because they're both young

01:32:14.880 i'd be wondering if this is really the race i want if i'm a trump guy yeah is this the race

01:32:24.080 i really want do i really think when you think about how hard it is in this country for a party

01:32:29.980 to get three in a row which is essentially what this is or the way it'll be felt by the public

01:32:37.180 right it'll be felt like oh wow we're continuing it's not like you know i mean you and i weren't

01:32:42.500 around for for Grover Cleveland but you know uh so I don't know if there was a similar feel back

01:32:48.620 then but it is I think it'll be tough if you're a Trump person to say you're going to bring change

01:32:57.940 because he's very unpopular right now and I don't know how he's going to get more popular

01:33:03.100 between now and 2028 so and if you and if you distance yourself from him

01:33:09.420 he's going to be very vindictive about that and so it's like when I look at the fundamentals of

01:33:16.280 the race if you're a clearly identifiable pro-Trump person as a candidate man look running for

01:33:26.200 president having done it twice now it's a tough needle to thread no matter what under those

01:33:32.180 circumstances well how the hell do you like how do you maneuver that and so i think if i were both

01:33:39.340 you know i don't know jd very well i know him a little bit i know marco very well if i were both

01:33:46.100 yeah i'd be sitting there thinking to myself like do i is this the way i really want or maybe you

01:33:53.460 want to sit one out and then they can't like these guys can't sit one out all of a sudden you guys

01:34:00.120 are up there. One of you guys sneaks in there. Your two terms, these guys are no longer even

01:34:04.360 relevant. Not a chance in hell. You know better than that. Come on. This is self-interested

01:34:09.240 punditry. Well, no, it's not really self-interested punditry. It may be wrong, but I would sit there

01:34:17.640 and think to myself, the only Republican who has a real chance to win, and that's why I talk about

01:34:24.800 Kemp is someone who is seen as a conservative Republican, governed as a conservative in Georgia,

01:34:33.480 has stood up to Trump and beaten him. And the beating he laid on Trump in that 2022 primary

01:34:42.140 is almost unthinkable, right? We've been in a lot of elections. He beat a former United States

01:34:49.260 senator with the endorsement of the president united states in a state like georgia by 70

01:34:55.300 points he didn't get 70 he won by 70 over david purdue right so he's going to be able to come in

01:35:03.460 and say look if he decides to do it i support the president when i agree with him i oppose him when

01:35:11.860 he's wrong i'm the kind of guy you need i call balls and strikes and i take the risk and the

01:35:20.140 president tried to get me and he couldn't you know why because the people of georgia believed in me

01:35:24.480 the same way the people of america believe in me you know i think that's a there are very few people

01:35:30.220 at our party who can make both arguments there are people who can say i stood up to trump and

01:35:34.620 I'm in that crew but then I can't say I ever beat him because I didn't Brian may be the only person

01:35:42.220 the only person it's not Cruz and none of the others yeah no because they all kowtowed to him

01:35:47.020 yeah they did they all kowtowed to him and right and so you know and what do you think why do you

01:35:51.820 think Trump keeps bringing Cruz up for the Supreme Court it's all the same game yeah yeah he gets to

01:35:58.220 he gets to make fun of him because he'd say he went 100 and 100 to zero because everybody wants

01:36:02.980 him out of there because they all hate him so he gets to make fun of him and he also keeps that ball

01:36:07.720 in play with marco oh there could be another hispanic marco ted you went through that before

01:36:14.460 ted beat you in 16 you know he was the last man standing like this is the way he thinks

01:36:20.100 so i think that the thing that makes kemp unique if he decides he wants to do it

01:36:24.860 is that he has those two elements at the same time.

01:36:30.720 He can say that, you know,

01:36:33.320 I supported the president when I felt like he was doing the right thing.

01:36:37.280 But also when he came after me and did what I think would have been wrong

01:36:41.160 for the people of Georgia, I not only stood up to him, I beat him.

01:36:46.280 President Trump calls you, says he wants to see you at the Oval Office.

01:36:51.080 You're going to pick up the phone.

01:36:53.300 You're going to say what?

01:36:55.340 Yeah.

01:36:56.140 What do you want to see me about?

01:36:58.540 And if he wants to see me about something that could be legitimately helpful to the country, I don't think you refuse to see the president of the United States.

01:37:08.520 But if he either says something that, like, I have no interest in, that I don't think is good for the country, or when I get there, he asks me to do something that I can't do, then I say, it was great seeing you again.

01:37:22.700 and I shake his hand and I walk out.

01:37:26.760 You know, I don't think any of us should have the luxury

01:37:29.500 to not take a call from the president of the United States.

01:37:33.860 And just because he wouldn't do it,

01:37:35.840 and I'm confident if the roles were reversed, he wouldn't,

01:37:39.380 this goes back to two wrongs don't make a right.

01:37:41.660 Like if the president of the United States,

01:37:43.900 you know, I got my phone sitting here.

01:37:45.840 If it rang and it was him, I would answer it.

01:37:49.980 And I would listen to what he had to say.

01:37:52.700 And if it was not something I thought, like I said, was good for the country, then I'd say, no, thank you, Mr. President.

01:37:58.820 You've heard this from me before.

01:38:00.780 If you wanted me to come down and talk to him, if I thought I could be helpful to making his presidency better for the country, I would go down there and do my best.

01:38:09.760 But I will tell you this, I'd be skeptical because I've tried that before and as a woman.

01:38:16.220 Governor Chris Christie, it has been a lot of fun.

01:38:19.580 I really enjoyed this conversation.

01:38:21.080 I appreciate it.

01:38:22.140 Opportunity to catch up and, you know, go Giants.

01:38:30.040 Hey, Portlandia fans.

01:38:31.580 Carrie Brownstein and Fred Armisen here.

01:38:33.620 The dream of the 90s is alive in podcast form.

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01:39:02.320 You fully improvised not just words, but a song.

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01:39:09.700 Listen to Podlandia, AAO Rewatch on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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And, This Is An Insider’s Guide To How Trump Sees His Presidency With Chris Christie

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