This is Gavin Newsom - July 04, 2025


And, This Is Dr. Sanjay Gupta


Episode Stats

Length

47 minutes

Words per Minute

173.97662

Word Count

8,248

Sentence Count

507

Misogynist Sentences

17

Hate Speech Sentences

9


Summary

Sophia Bush joins Chelsea Handler to talk about her experience as a lesbian journalist and pundit, and why she thinks the U.S. should still be leading the fight for universal health care in a world that values diversity and inclusion.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart podcast.
00:00:04.820 I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, a different type of podcast.
00:00:10.840 You, the listener, ask the questions.
00:00:13.760 Did George Washington really cut down a cherry tree?
00:00:16.120 Were JFK and Marilyn Monroe having an affair?
00:00:18.320 And I find the answers.
00:00:20.020 I'm so glad you asked me this question.
00:00:22.000 This is such a ridiculous story.
00:00:24.000 You can listen to American History Hotline on the iHeart Radio app,
00:00:27.940 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:00:57.940 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:04.600 Just like great shoes, great books take you places.
00:01:08.360 Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.
00:01:13.520 I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.
00:01:18.040 I'm Danielle Robay, and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club.
00:01:21.160 The new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts, where we dive into the stories that shape us, on the page and off.
00:01:28.900 Each week, I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars, and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry, and add way too many books to your TBR pile.
00:01:38.980 Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:45.020 This week on Dear Chelsea, with me, Chelsea Handler, Sophia Bush is here.
00:01:50.460 Tell me how that feels to be a hot, considered a hot lesbian.
00:01:53.900 Quite an honor.
00:01:54.960 You know what's funny?
00:01:55.900 When you're actually more fluid with your sexuality, the swing goes from,
00:02:00.240 nobody gives a shit who you're sleeping with, to, you better identify exactly who you are so we can figure out what name to call you.
00:02:06.500 And it's like, has nobody been paying attention to like all the hot girls I've been kissing on camera?
00:02:11.400 Hi, I've always been here.
00:02:12.600 Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:02:22.540 I know a lot of cops.
00:02:24.200 They get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun?
00:02:27.660 Sometimes the answer is yes.
00:02:29.600 But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no.
00:02:35.500 This is Absolute Season 1.
00:02:37.700 Taser Incorporated.
00:02:39.220 I get right back there and it's bad.
00:02:41.660 Listen to Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:02:49.880 This is Gavin Newsom.
00:03:03.840 This is Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
00:03:05.840 Sanjay, it's great to have you.
00:03:10.060 I appreciate the opportunity because, look, all of us are reflecting on whether this is, as it feels to many of us, one of the most sort of challenging and profoundly consequential moments with health care policy in our lifetime,
00:03:25.800 or perhaps putting it more perspective, more historically, even thinking back a little bit to Obamacare and their debates and the sort of fundamental shifts in health policy were taking shape there.
00:03:36.140 So I thought I'd just open up, just ask you about the landscape, ask you about your perspective, particularly from the prism of not just a policy expert and a pundit, but also as a practitioner.
00:03:47.940 What world are we living in as it relates to health care policy in the United States today?
00:03:54.060 Well, you know, broadly speaking, I think one of, and we've been talking, thinking about this a lot, is sort of what is the United States role when it comes to science, health care science, public health, all of that.
00:04:09.300 I think for 80-some years, we were sort of the world leaders, sort of post-World War II.
00:04:16.380 That became part of our DNA in the United States and take great pride in it.
00:04:19.940 We recruit the best scientists in the world.
00:04:22.600 Some of the greatest scientific achievements over the last century have come from the United States.
00:04:26.860 And I think it's been something that certainly people in the scientific community, but I think the population at large really have rallied behind, taken great pride in people coming from other countries for our medical care, new therapies coming out of the United States, all of that.
00:04:44.000 And I think one of the, and I don't want to overstate this, but I think one of the worrisome things right now is, is that still the case?
00:04:52.180 Do we still think that that's important? Kind of like maybe how we talked about, my parents both worked in the auto industry.
00:04:59.440 And I think there was a, there was a time period where people said, should we still be building cars in the United States?
00:05:04.720 And my parents both ended up leaving the auto industry in 2001, because they were fearful that the, the industry was just going to change.
00:05:11.600 It did not, got bailed out, as you know, and all these things happened. And here we are today.
00:05:16.360 I think it sort of feels this has some of those same tones as that.
00:05:21.000 Are we going to look back 20 years from now and say, the United States is still the global leader when it comes to these things?
00:05:27.920 That's, that's the thing that I worry about sort of philosophically, sort of more practically speaking.
00:05:34.820 Governor is something you talk about a lot as well. We're not a healthy country.
00:05:38.880 We spend four and a half trillion dollars on healthcare.
00:05:41.640 And we don't have a lot to show for it in terms of outcomes, in terms of overall health.
00:05:47.160 I think we saw that ripped off like a bandaid during the pandemic.
00:05:51.100 People say, how could a country that spends that kind of money do so poorly with regard to patient outcomes?
00:05:56.280 We walked in pretty unhealthy into that situation.
00:05:59.100 So I think some of that needs to change.
00:06:01.560 And frankly, most of that problem, I think, is in how we nourish ourselves.
00:06:08.340 You know, the foods that we put into our body, the chemicals that we ingest.
00:06:12.400 It's, it's, it's a problem.
00:06:14.000 It's part of the reason I got into medical journalism in the first place.
00:06:16.740 That needs to change.
00:06:18.040 And people have been saying that for a long time.
00:06:20.080 You talk about it in California.
00:06:22.540 First Lady Obama used to talk about that.
00:06:24.940 You know, Michael Bloomberg talked about that when he was mayor of New York.
00:06:29.420 So it's not a new discussion, but I think it's one that needs to be had.
00:06:33.940 So I want to get to both subjects, because I think it's interesting as you start with the larger issue, as some of us, and I'm not putting words in your mouth, but this sort of this war on knowledge, more broadly speaking.
00:06:45.480 And certainly scientific expression is a part of that.
00:06:48.740 And this notion of just confidence in transparency, truth, trust, we can get to mis and disinformation, and how that debate plays out differently through the lens, ideological lens, on both sides of the political prism.
00:07:03.540 But the interesting thing, I think you underscored, is just this, this trend line that's been decades and decades that's, I think, growing headline in some ways because of this Maha movement.
00:07:14.140 And I think if there's one sort of reckoning, it's a recognition with RFK Jr., and we can get to the more controversial aspects of it.
00:07:22.700 But this whole Maha movement is interesting to me.
00:07:24.700 You brought up Obama, First Lady Michelle Obama, in the Let's Move campaign, her focus on issues of chronic disease, obesity, school lunches, which was exceptional at the time.
00:07:36.500 And I was exceptionally engaged in that campaign.
00:07:39.560 I think it was a 2010-ish, plus or minus.
00:07:42.600 But where are you in this Maha movement?
00:07:44.740 Do you think it's a breakthrough in terms of consciousness, on a wellness frame, on a focus on some of these broader issues that have been under-resourced in terms of time and attention?
00:07:54.700 That's a good question.
00:07:55.680 I do think a lot more people are talking about this.
00:07:58.860 You know, I wish it didn't require, you know, sort of really demeaning certain populations of people to do it.
00:08:08.000 But there's no question it has struck a nerve.
00:08:10.220 And I hear people talking about it from circles that I had not heard people talking about this before, just in terms of really wanting to have some autonomy over their own health.
00:08:20.140 So there's a lot of kernels of truth, I think, to what is happening out of the Maha movement.
00:08:25.960 It is, I think, largely based on precautionary principle, which we can talk about more because I think there's other aspects of what is happening in health care that are the opposite of precautionary principle.
00:08:37.300 So this demand for more evidence and replication of evidence and it's not just be careful, it's let's prove this to the nth degree before we make any movements.
00:08:47.680 But with regard to ultra-processed foods, with regard to petroleum-based dyes, some of these petroleum-based dyes, Governor, should have probably never been approved.
00:08:56.920 They have no nutritional value.
00:08:59.040 They were purely aesthetic.
00:09:00.500 There's many countries around the world that don't have them.
00:09:03.160 These food manufacturers can clearly make these products without them.
00:09:06.920 I have kids.
00:09:08.260 I've worried about this for a long time.
00:09:10.540 So people have been talking about it, but no one got it done.
00:09:13.280 You did in California, and now it's starting to happen, I think, more at a national level.
00:09:17.660 You know what's interesting, Sanjay, is some of the things we let on, I appreciate you highlighting.
00:09:22.220 I mean, this has been a passion project for me going back to my mayor days when you referenced Mayor Bloomberg.
00:09:27.480 He and I were very competitive in this space as mayors.
00:09:30.500 He with a much larger platform in New York.
00:09:33.880 I with a little smaller platform in San Francisco.
00:09:36.260 But I've deeply been committed, as you have in terms of all your work, focusing not on sick care, but health care, focusing on social determinants of health, which we'll talk about in a moment in wellness and prevention.
00:09:50.080 But one of the things that is really, you know, came to the fore with me through a political lens was this notion of ultra-processed food, but specifically as it relates to food dyes.
00:09:59.360 And we did something that was referred to on the far right, which was the great irony and mocked.
00:10:05.340 I mean, I can't tell you how many, with respect to another news network there, three-letter news network, mocked consistently called the Skittles ban because we were removing red dye and we were the first state to do that.
00:10:18.900 But now it seems to be socialized in the political spectrum on the right as sort of, you know, endowed leadership from the Maha movement.
00:10:29.880 But what was the movement towards all this?
00:10:33.040 I mean, there's chemicals aside, but additives, there's sort of obsession.
00:10:37.840 Is it just, was it taste?
00:10:39.660 Was it texture that we were after?
00:10:41.680 Was it longevity, freshness?
00:10:44.020 Why the U.S., not the EU?
00:10:46.060 What was it, what is unique about the United States that we became overly indulgent in these additives and chemicals?
00:10:53.740 I think it's more than, more than one thing, but I do think a lot of it had to do with longevity initially, increasing shelf life of food.
00:11:02.280 And that really got at a lot of additives, even going back to hydrogenated corn syrup versus sugar.
00:11:09.240 You know, when you're adding these types of things in there, you're not only adding sweetness to some extent, but you're adding how moist the food is and how long it's going to last on a shelf.
00:11:19.640 I think trying to, I remember, you know, former President Clinton used to talk about this.
00:11:25.100 You can feed a lot of people a lot of calories for cheap if you're having these ultra-processed foods.
00:11:32.080 You know, feed a family at McDonald's for, you know, 25 bucks, you know, if you have ultra-processed foods.
00:11:38.160 So I think it, you know, if you increase shelf life, you can decrease costs.
00:11:41.480 I do think the aesthetics of the food is not an issue to be minimized, though.
00:11:47.440 It's very, I don't know if you heard the story about what happened with Froot Loops, I think, back about 11 years ago, 2014 timeframe, where, you know, they basically said, all right, let's remove some of these food dyes.
00:11:59.540 There was a lot of pressure to remove the food dyes.
00:12:02.300 And the Froot Loops, as a result, were not as brightly colored.
00:12:06.060 They were kind of bland colored.
00:12:07.120 Or if you go to Europe and go to a, you know, hotel or something, and you go to the breakfast buffet and you get Froot Loops, they're bland colored Froot Loops.
00:12:14.300 They're the same Froot Loops otherwise, but they just don't look the same.
00:12:17.480 And what they found when they did that in the United States was two things.
00:12:21.620 One is that people didn't buy those blandly colored Froot Loops.
00:12:25.480 And two is they kind of got accused of the same thing that you were talking about, sort of nanny state, don't take away our brightly colored Froot Loops.
00:12:32.300 Same thing that Mayor Bloomberg got accused of when he wanted to not sell 16-ounce sodas anymore.
00:12:38.200 The big gulps.
00:12:38.720 Any state.
00:12:40.000 And so it's really, it's interesting, Governor, this balance between personal freedom and health.
00:12:47.020 And what is interesting is that you can be sort of thinking the same thing and approach that in two completely different ways.
00:12:55.680 One hand, I'm going to do precautionary principle.
00:12:58.020 We're not going to have food dyes.
00:12:59.420 It doesn't make sense.
00:13:00.180 No nutritional value.
00:13:01.120 Why would we do that?
00:13:02.300 I kind of agree with that.
00:13:04.160 Again, as a health-conscious person myself, I like to eat right.
00:13:07.960 I like to exercise every day.
00:13:09.280 Why would I do something like that to my body?
00:13:11.700 On the other hand, what is the level of evidence you need to have before making a decision?
00:13:17.960 Prove to me that red dye number three is bad.
00:13:20.120 Prove it.
00:13:20.920 Maybe some will say, why do you need to prove it?
00:13:22.820 It causes cancer in animals and we should have never approved it anyways.
00:13:26.160 But what is the level of evidence?
00:13:27.740 And that's going to extend, I think, beyond food and additives to vaccines and therapeutics and other things.
00:13:34.880 I think that's going to be the crux of the issue.
00:13:36.820 And it's important.
00:13:38.800 On the precautionary frame and the precautionary principle, I think that's fundamentally, isn't it, the difference between the EU policy, where so many of these foods just simply never make the shelf, and fundamental policy that's advanced in the United States.
00:13:50.980 That is exactly, your friend, I think, Todd Wagner, who's a friend of mine as well, he talks about this a lot.
00:13:57.620 He started this organization, Food Fight.
00:13:59.820 And, you know, when I spent time talking to these folks and reporting on this, people will always say the same thing, which is I go to Europe, I eat the same foods, I eat pasta, I do whatever, and I feel great.
00:14:10.940 I lose weight, I lose weight, all that.
00:14:14.700 Now, some of that may be that you're active more over there as well.
00:14:18.840 There could be other things.
00:14:20.120 But I think there's something definitely to that.
00:14:24.600 And I think that's a little bit more than precautionary principle.
00:14:28.480 You have these large cohorts of the population that say, I have lived in both those worlds.
00:14:34.560 I've eaten both these foods, and I can feel the difference in my own body.
00:14:38.060 I think you can't ignore that.
00:14:39.980 But, again, with the backdrop that those petroleum-based dyes don't have any nutritional value, not losing anything by stripping them out other than aesthetics, which, you know, may be important to people.
00:14:52.400 People do like their brightly colored Froot Loops, as it turns out.
00:14:58.960 Don't miss the You Versus You podcast.
00:15:01.880 Join Lex Borrero every week as he sits down with some of the biggest names in entertainment to talk about the real stuff,
00:15:07.660 the struggles, the doubts, and the breakthroughs that made them who they are.
00:15:12.960 They go deep, covering childhood trauma, family, overcoming loss, and the moments that shape their journey.
00:15:20.300 These honest conversations are meant to take the cape off our heroes with the hope that their humanity inspires you to become a better you,
00:15:27.840 and therefore set you free to live the life of your dreams.
00:15:30.600 Here's a sneak peek.
00:15:32.900 I'm trained to go compete.
00:15:34.280 I'm trained to, like, go harder.
00:15:35.840 But sometimes that mentality stops you from stopping and smelling the flowers in your own garden.
00:15:40.860 It's wrong to want more.
00:15:42.440 We migrated.
00:15:43.340 Our family migrated here.
00:15:44.620 I'm, like, second generation.
00:15:46.060 Listen to You Versus You as part of My Cultura Podcast Network.
00:15:50.320 Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:15:54.760 American history is full of wise people.
00:16:03.020 What women said something like, you know, 99.99% of war is diarrhea and 1% is glory.
00:16:09.680 Those founding fathers were gossipy AF, and they loved to cut each other down.
00:16:15.800 I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, the show where you send us your questions about American history,
00:16:22.320 and I find the answers, including the nuggets of wisdom our history has to offer.
00:16:28.500 Hamilton pauses, and then he says,
00:16:30.640 the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar.
00:16:33.960 And Jefferson writes in his diary,
00:16:36.080 this proves that Hamilton is for a dictator based on corruption.
00:16:40.720 My favorite line was what Neil Armstrong said.
00:16:43.340 It would have been harder to fake it than to do it.
00:16:47.020 Listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app,
00:16:49.880 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:16:57.940 Just like great shoes, great books take you places.
00:17:01.700 Through unforgettable love stories, and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.
00:17:06.860 I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of, like, butterflies.
00:17:11.060 I'm Danielle Robay, and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club,
00:17:14.900 the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts.
00:17:18.400 Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers,
00:17:21.280 authors, celebrities, book talkers, and more,
00:17:23.860 to explore the stories that shape us, on the page and off.
00:17:27.760 I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick,
00:17:30.400 deep-diving book talk theories,
00:17:32.080 and obsessing over book-to-screen casts for years.
00:17:34.900 And now, I get to talk to the people making the magic.
00:17:37.980 So if you've ever fallen in love with a fictional character,
00:17:41.180 or cried at the last chapter,
00:17:43.060 or passed a book to a friend saying,
00:17:45.180 you have to read this,
00:17:46.700 this podcast is for you.
00:17:49.340 Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
00:17:51.220 on the iHeartRadio app,
00:17:53.080 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:17:55.420 This week on Dear Chelsea, with me, Chelsea Handler.
00:18:01.360 Sophia Bush is here.
00:18:02.960 Tell me how that feels to be a hot,
00:18:04.720 considered a hot lesbian.
00:18:06.380 Quite an honor.
00:18:07.460 You know what's funny is,
00:18:09.260 you do this weird math,
00:18:10.860 like if you're a woman dating men,
00:18:12.720 nobody wants to talk to you about your sexuality.
00:18:14.900 They just want to either say, like,
00:18:16.400 you're a prude or a slut, you know?
00:18:18.500 If you date too much, they criticize you.
00:18:20.580 If you don't date, you must be frigid, whatever.
00:18:22.320 And then the thing that gets added
00:18:24.740 when you're actually more fluid with your sexuality
00:18:27.220 is the swing goes to,
00:18:30.040 you better identify exactly who you are
00:18:31.860 so we can figure out what name to call you.
00:18:33.800 And it's like, okay.
00:18:36.000 And, you know, I sort of looked around and was like,
00:18:38.160 has nobody been paying attention
00:18:39.200 to like all the hot girls I've been kissing on camera?
00:18:42.100 You know, maybe not in front of you off camera,
00:18:44.060 but hi, I've always been here.
00:18:46.780 Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app,
00:18:49.080 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:18:52.320 What happens when we come face to face with death?
00:18:56.980 My truck was blown up by a 20-pound anti-tank mine.
00:18:59.700 My parachute did not deploy.
00:19:02.260 I was kidnapped by a drug cartel.
00:19:04.960 I just remember everything getting dark.
00:19:08.460 I'm dying.
00:19:09.940 When we step beyond the edge of what we know.
00:19:12.260 To open our consciousness
00:19:13.880 to something more than just what's in that Western box.
00:19:17.140 And return.
00:19:18.520 I clinically died.
00:19:19.700 The heart stopped beating.
00:19:21.100 Which I was dead for 11.5 minutes.
00:19:23.580 My name is Dan Bush.
00:19:24.660 My mission is simple.
00:19:25.840 To find, explore, and share these stories.
00:19:28.780 I'm not a victim.
00:19:29.860 I'm a survivor.
00:19:30.900 You're strongest when you're the most vulnerable.
00:19:32.940 To remind us what it means to be alive.
00:19:35.080 Not just that I was the guy that cut his arm off,
00:19:37.120 but I'm the guy who was smiling
00:19:38.660 when he cut his arm off.
00:19:40.580 Alive Again.
00:19:41.080 A podcast about the fragility of life,
00:19:43.920 the strength of the human spirit,
00:19:45.420 and what it means to truly live.
00:19:47.400 Listen to Alive Again on the iHeartRadio app,
00:19:49.760 Apple Podcasts,
00:19:50.660 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
00:19:52.660 So you talk about,
00:19:57.720 and you talk in the terms of precautionary principles,
00:20:00.300 sort of the two ends of this,
00:20:02.420 and you referenced the issue of vaccines.
00:20:04.180 Is that a reference to mRNA vaccines?
00:20:07.220 In what respect is a precautionary principle,
00:20:11.760 sort of the 180 degree flip side of that principle,
00:20:16.080 being abused in terms of,
00:20:17.400 or is it just more over on what more evidence do you need
00:20:20.340 of something being bad or good?
00:20:22.800 Is it the same thing?
00:20:23.740 Yeah.
00:20:24.420 I think it's mRNA vaccines,
00:20:27.940 but more widely,
00:20:29.340 I think it's vaccines in general.
00:20:31.700 And I think it's maybe even the response
00:20:34.100 to things like a pandemic.
00:20:36.240 You know,
00:20:36.660 when you're dealing with something that is novel.
00:20:40.940 I mean, by the way,
00:20:42.720 you know, COVID was a novel disease.
00:20:45.720 We had never experienced it before.
00:20:48.360 And I know people said that a lot,
00:20:50.140 novel virus,
00:20:50.960 you heard that a lot.
00:20:51.860 But I mean,
00:20:52.240 if you really sit and think about that,
00:20:54.360 it's kind of extraordinary.
00:20:55.860 I mean,
00:20:56.040 as an adult,
00:20:56.800 we don't get to experience novel things very often.
00:21:00.860 Kids experience novel things all the time.
00:21:02.960 But when is the last time you,
00:21:05.200 Governor,
00:21:05.700 experienced something for the first time?
00:21:08.140 Doesn't happen very often.
00:21:10.020 So now you're dealing with something that is novel,
00:21:12.180 and you have to say,
00:21:13.380 okay, look,
00:21:13.860 our response isn't going to be exactly right.
00:21:17.000 Nothing's exactly right.
00:21:19.000 Where are we going to tilt?
00:21:20.360 What side are we going to err on?
00:21:21.480 Are we going to err on precautionary principle?
00:21:23.980 Or are we going to err on the side of,
00:21:26.200 let's sort of see how things go
00:21:27.900 and, you know,
00:21:28.680 figure it out as we go along.
00:21:30.500 And I think,
00:21:31.200 you know,
00:21:31.500 public health,
00:21:32.720 the training often is to sort of side
00:21:36.000 with precautionary principle.
00:21:37.660 It's like,
00:21:38.040 let's be careful
00:21:38.880 as we sort of sort this out.
00:21:40.360 How is this virus behaving?
00:21:41.560 Who's it affecting?
00:21:42.160 So I think mRNA vaccines were part of that.
00:21:45.740 I mean,
00:21:45.920 people,
00:21:46.340 I think,
00:21:46.740 understandably would say,
00:21:48.220 we need long-term data on these things
00:21:51.480 before we start,
00:21:53.000 you know,
00:21:53.780 releasing them.
00:21:54.940 I think that's a really fair sort of thing to say.
00:21:57.300 But you realize that in the middle of a pandemic,
00:21:59.840 to get long-term data means you have to wait long-term.
00:22:03.120 Are you going to wait five years,
00:22:04.900 10 years?
00:22:05.800 What does long-term mean?
00:22:07.420 You know,
00:22:07.580 if it's for a kid,
00:22:08.280 is it 80 years?
00:22:09.620 What does it mean in terms of how long
00:22:11.540 you're willing to wait?
00:22:12.900 What struck me,
00:22:14.300 and again,
00:22:14.660 this is finding the balance
00:22:15.820 between precautionary principle
00:22:17.540 and evidence,
00:22:19.000 is that we knew that for vaccines,
00:22:21.900 the vast majority of the time,
00:22:23.760 greater than 90% of the time,
00:22:24.960 if side effects were to occur,
00:22:26.940 they would occur within the first 68 days.
00:22:29.720 That was the number.
00:22:30.660 So just over two months.
00:22:32.800 So then the idea that the FDA would say,
00:22:34.640 well,
00:22:34.700 let's wait three months.
00:22:36.480 Let's just,
00:22:37.000 let's try and cover as many possible
00:22:39.000 side effects that'll come from this as possible
00:22:40.740 before we give emergency use authorization.
00:22:44.540 That is an example,
00:22:46.140 I think,
00:22:46.460 of policy that you have to sort of think about
00:22:48.900 in the throes of something like this.
00:22:50.980 It is still precautionary
00:22:52.560 because we don't know the long-term data.
00:22:55.500 On the other hand,
00:22:56.180 you're using the best evidence
00:22:57.440 that we do have
00:22:58.340 in terms of what history has taught us.
00:23:00.700 And I think,
00:23:01.360 you know,
00:23:01.980 I know it's been a sort of cluster
00:23:04.080 since that,
00:23:05.400 but I think at the time
00:23:06.620 to me as a reporter,
00:23:08.860 medical reporter
00:23:09.540 and as a doctor,
00:23:10.740 but also as a dad,
00:23:12.600 that made sense.
00:23:13.920 Yeah.
00:23:14.400 The side effects are going to occur.
00:23:15.660 They usually occur within two,
00:23:17.000 two and a half months.
00:23:18.600 Let's keep a close eye on this thing.
00:23:20.500 Watch it like a hawk.
00:23:22.420 Wait even longer than that.
00:23:24.440 And at that point,
00:23:25.260 if things look good,
00:23:26.560 then I go ahead and provide an EUA for it.
00:23:29.960 I mean,
00:23:30.220 it's interesting.
00:23:31.640 It continues to this day.
00:23:32.800 I mean,
00:23:33.020 obviously at the state level,
00:23:35.000 we saw the Surgeon General of Florida
00:23:36.860 come out and recommend
00:23:38.640 against mRNA vaccines.
00:23:41.840 Obviously the president
00:23:42.580 has spoken from every side
00:23:44.980 on this issue.
00:23:46.460 I mean,
00:23:46.900 considering he,
00:23:48.040 through Operation Warp Speed,
00:23:49.260 was the one advancing
00:23:50.200 the platform and the technology.
00:23:53.180 But obviously the new
00:23:54.040 Health and Human Service Secretary
00:23:55.400 has been very critical
00:23:57.240 and has been prone,
00:23:59.320 arguably,
00:23:59.880 to some sort of wild-eyed theories
00:24:01.940 around DNA issues
00:24:04.400 related to the mRNA vaccine
00:24:08.660 and concerns around DNA,
00:24:10.840 concerns obviously around its safety
00:24:12.540 and the side effects.
00:24:15.460 Where are you now
00:24:16.880 in terms of just your concerns?
00:24:19.060 mRNA is not just for COVID vaccine, right?
00:24:21.420 It's also used for other vaccines.
00:24:24.300 Use for other vaccines
00:24:26.320 and use for other therapies entirely,
00:24:28.480 including cancer therapies.
00:24:30.220 Right.
00:24:30.360 There are clinical trials now
00:24:31.520 trying to use these types of platforms,
00:24:34.800 mRNA platforms,
00:24:35.800 for very difficult-to-treat cancers,
00:24:38.060 including pancreatic cancer,
00:24:39.520 which we don't have great answers for.
00:24:42.840 You know,
00:24:43.420 I think I'm pretty practical on this.
00:24:46.360 I think where we are now in 2025
00:24:48.580 versus certainly
00:24:49.920 when these vaccines got approved,
00:24:51.860 we're in a different place,
00:24:53.540 meaning that
00:24:54.540 even though the uptake of vaccines
00:24:57.380 has gone way down,
00:24:58.860 most people did get
00:24:59.760 the initial series of vaccines.
00:25:02.080 And we know that they can,
00:25:04.360 especially for young people,
00:25:05.480 they can provide
00:25:06.120 more durable relief.
00:25:08.820 There hasn't, you know,
00:25:09.680 after the initial,
00:25:11.320 what they call ancestral strains
00:25:13.060 of COVID before Omicron,
00:25:15.280 I think these still provide
00:25:16.340 pretty good protection,
00:25:18.980 especially for young people
00:25:19.940 whose immune systems
00:25:20.780 really respond to them.
00:25:22.800 So I still think,
00:25:25.280 you know,
00:25:25.560 I said this before,
00:25:27.340 I think this was one of the great
00:25:29.040 scientific achievements
00:25:31.340 of my time
00:25:32.580 as a human being.
00:25:34.520 I think, you know,
00:25:35.320 when textbooks are written
00:25:36.300 about scientific achievements,
00:25:37.800 the idea
00:25:38.380 that they were able
00:25:39.660 to create a vaccine
00:25:40.560 essentially in nine months
00:25:41.960 and be able to,
00:25:43.880 you know,
00:25:44.220 protect so many people.
00:25:45.260 There's a lot of people
00:25:45.780 who think they don't work.
00:25:46.860 They do work.
00:25:47.820 I mean,
00:25:48.040 if you looked at the data,
00:25:49.180 California or the country
00:25:51.160 as a whole,
00:25:52.460 who was in the hospital
00:25:53.360 during the huge sort of
00:25:55.060 swings in COVID,
00:25:57.120 it was primarily people
00:25:58.180 who were not vaccinated.
00:25:59.600 So it was helping protect
00:26:00.840 against illness and death.
00:26:02.480 What I think was unfortunate,
00:26:04.340 frankly,
00:26:04.720 and this was a communications problem,
00:26:06.180 was that they seemed
00:26:08.220 to also intimate
00:26:09.280 that it would protect you
00:26:10.560 from getting COVID at all,
00:26:12.920 from carrying it.
00:26:14.240 And there was not
00:26:15.560 great evidence behind that.
00:26:17.160 And, you know,
00:26:17.820 we reported as such
00:26:19.660 that you don't have
00:26:21.720 great evidence
00:26:22.300 that shows that.
00:26:23.240 When you have a vaccine
00:26:24.280 that's protecting it
00:26:25.140 against illness,
00:26:25.820 it's usually protecting
00:26:26.860 in your lower respiratory,
00:26:29.040 in your lungs.
00:26:29.940 So you're not getting
00:26:30.720 that really,
00:26:31.460 really sort of deep illness.
00:26:33.760 But you might still have it
00:26:35.100 in your mucosa,
00:26:36.240 in your mouth,
00:26:37.320 in your nose,
00:26:37.920 in your upper airway.
00:26:38.880 So you could potentially
00:26:39.900 still be carrying it
00:26:40.760 and still potentially spread it.
00:26:42.640 That wasn't,
00:26:43.500 I think,
00:26:43.800 a communications error.
00:26:44.900 And I think,
00:26:45.940 frankly, Governor,
00:26:46.880 I think it led to
00:26:47.560 a lot of distrust
00:26:48.680 overall of these mRNA vaccines.
00:26:50.980 You said it,
00:26:51.620 you said I couldn't get COVID
00:26:52.880 if I got this.
00:26:53.840 Well, I got COVID
00:26:54.520 and I spread it.
00:26:55.760 So what is this?
00:26:56.740 Is this a vaccine
00:26:57.400 or is it not a vaccine?
00:26:58.960 That was a problem.
00:27:01.000 And do you,
00:27:01.380 I mean,
00:27:01.740 are we being
00:27:03.020 oversensitive,
00:27:05.840 hyperbolic
00:27:06.600 as it relates to
00:27:07.660 how now this is manifested
00:27:09.060 with the new recommendations
00:27:10.660 that for pregnant women
00:27:12.120 and for children,
00:27:13.360 they shouldn't even be
00:27:14.120 getting these boosters
00:27:14.900 on COVID?
00:27:15.600 Is that overstated
00:27:16.740 or is that
00:27:17.260 a more targeted approach?
00:27:18.880 Do you think it's rational?
00:27:20.800 We could talk about
00:27:21.760 how that was done
00:27:22.720 without the CDC
00:27:23.980 and advisory committee
00:27:25.740 that usually advises
00:27:27.300 in terms of recommendation.
00:27:29.460 But the outcome,
00:27:30.960 ultimately,
00:27:31.460 of that decision,
00:27:32.540 where are you on that?
00:27:34.360 Yeah,
00:27:34.580 I mean,
00:27:34.800 first of all,
00:27:35.240 you know,
00:27:35.420 with regard to the CDC
00:27:36.520 and expertise,
00:27:37.820 I mean,
00:27:38.280 you know,
00:27:38.840 it amazed me
00:27:39.720 when I watch people
00:27:40.640 like Tom Frieden
00:27:41.640 during Ebola
00:27:42.380 or Richard Besser
00:27:43.720 during H1N1
00:27:44.960 do their briefings
00:27:46.580 in front of the CDC
00:27:47.540 and they would say,
00:27:49.580 behind us,
00:27:50.660 we have 4,000
00:27:52.300 of the smartest,
00:27:53.720 most hardworking scientists
00:27:54.960 in the world.
00:27:56.480 They're so good
00:27:57.520 that other infectious disease
00:27:59.000 organizations
00:27:59.520 in other countries
00:28:00.200 model their organizations
00:28:01.840 after us,
00:28:02.600 even calling their organizations
00:28:03.820 the CDC.
00:28:06.000 I mean,
00:28:06.420 that was a source
00:28:08.120 of great pride,
00:28:09.100 I think,
00:28:09.940 for people
00:28:10.480 in the public health world,
00:28:11.380 myself included.
00:28:12.760 I think where I am now
00:28:14.320 at this point
00:28:15.720 in 2025
00:28:16.580 is,
00:28:18.200 first of all,
00:28:18.660 I think what
00:28:19.440 Secretary Kennedy
00:28:21.240 has said
00:28:22.020 versus what is reality
00:28:23.360 is different.
00:28:25.420 There's daylight
00:28:26.320 between those two things.
00:28:27.300 So he basically said
00:28:28.220 no more boosters
00:28:29.240 for kids,
00:28:31.200 basically,
00:28:31.700 no more shots.
00:28:33.340 Even now
00:28:34.040 on the CDC's website,
00:28:35.120 that's not what it says.
00:28:36.540 It says it should be
00:28:37.460 a shared clinical decision
00:28:39.220 between patient
00:28:40.840 and provider.
00:28:42.460 So for kids,
00:28:43.060 I think that makes sense.
00:28:44.660 I mean,
00:28:45.060 if your kid has asthma,
00:28:47.720 do you want to get
00:28:48.260 your kid a COVID shot?
00:28:49.980 How bad is the asthma?
00:28:51.500 How many times
00:28:52.060 do they require an inhaler?
00:28:53.560 Do they have diabetes?
00:28:54.820 Do they require insulin?
00:28:56.200 You know,
00:28:56.380 there's nuance
00:28:57.920 to that decision
00:28:58.960 and I think,
00:28:59.960 you know,
00:29:00.240 the general approach
00:29:01.440 has always been
00:29:02.120 instead of trying
00:29:03.480 to stratify all this
00:29:04.700 by risk,
00:29:05.500 which can be difficult
00:29:06.540 as a country to do.
00:29:07.980 Let's just recommend
00:29:08.620 the vaccine.
00:29:09.880 I think what they're saying
00:29:10.780 is let's do risk stratification
00:29:12.440 and let's put it
00:29:13.360 at the hands
00:29:13.840 of the providers,
00:29:14.880 of the doctors,
00:29:15.660 you know,
00:29:15.900 for these kids.
00:29:18.200 I think that makes sense.
00:29:19.680 You know,
00:29:20.020 if your kid
00:29:20.940 is otherwise healthy,
00:29:22.080 they've had their
00:29:22.780 primary series,
00:29:23.640 which most kids have had.
00:29:25.240 We haven't had
00:29:25.840 new variants
00:29:26.720 that are worrisome
00:29:27.640 for the time being.
00:29:29.480 I think that
00:29:30.000 that makes sense.
00:29:31.080 Pregnant women,
00:29:31.820 I would put into
00:29:32.380 a different category.
00:29:33.760 I mean,
00:29:35.020 the thing about pregnancy
00:29:36.040 is that when you're pregnant,
00:29:37.520 when someone is pregnant,
00:29:38.660 their immune system
00:29:40.220 is compromised
00:29:41.380 intentionally.
00:29:42.920 It's the way
00:29:43.280 the body works.
00:29:44.100 You don't want
00:29:44.420 to reject
00:29:45.160 this new body
00:29:46.120 inside your body,
00:29:47.460 inside a woman's body.
00:29:48.760 So the idea
00:29:49.700 that, you know,
00:29:51.200 you would be more vulnerable
00:29:52.140 to infections
00:29:53.020 while pregnant
00:29:53.740 is real.
00:29:55.340 In fact,
00:29:56.840 you know,
00:29:57.260 the FDA commissioner
00:29:58.140 wrote
00:29:58.640 before these new
00:29:59.860 recommendations came out,
00:30:00.820 he listed pregnancy
00:30:01.960 as a high-risk condition
00:30:03.780 for COVID.
00:30:05.200 And then a couple days later
00:30:06.180 said pregnant women
00:30:06.920 don't need it.
00:30:08.140 I mean,
00:30:08.400 if people's heads
00:30:08.980 were spinning,
00:30:09.840 I would understand why.
00:30:11.760 The second thing
00:30:12.440 about pregnant women
00:30:13.400 is that
00:30:14.120 if they get vaccinated,
00:30:16.400 they can actually
00:30:16.980 pass on some of the antibodies
00:30:18.480 to their child.
00:30:20.220 So for the first
00:30:20.860 six months of life,
00:30:21.860 that child may have protection.
00:30:23.960 And they're very,
00:30:25.020 young kids like that
00:30:26.020 are very,
00:30:26.640 very vulnerable to COVID.
00:30:27.920 Some of the rates
00:30:28.640 of severe illness,
00:30:30.200 they approximate
00:30:30.860 what older adults,
00:30:31.960 have.
00:30:32.480 So very young,
00:30:33.160 very old,
00:30:34.040 both can get very sick,
00:30:35.040 but young kids
00:30:36.360 under the age of six months
00:30:37.220 can't get a vaccine.
00:30:38.540 So mom can provide protection.
00:30:41.240 But now they're sort of
00:30:42.080 recommending against that as well.
00:30:44.580 I don't think it'll stick.
00:30:46.360 I think most infectious
00:30:47.340 disease doctors,
00:30:48.340 you know,
00:30:48.500 if you go to your doctor
00:30:49.320 as a pregnant woman
00:30:50.060 will say,
00:30:50.540 hey, look,
00:30:50.880 here's the benefits.
00:30:51.820 You're immune compromised
00:30:52.960 as a result of pregnancy
00:30:54.100 and you can help protect
00:30:55.400 your child
00:30:55.820 after they are born.
00:30:57.400 I think most people
00:30:58.160 will, you know,
00:30:59.320 at least pay attention to that.
00:31:01.960 Don't miss the
00:31:04.980 You Versus You podcast.
00:31:07.080 Join Lex Borrero
00:31:07.920 every week
00:31:08.560 as he sits down
00:31:09.240 with some of the biggest
00:31:10.040 names in entertainment
00:31:10.940 to talk about the real stuff,
00:31:13.240 the struggles,
00:31:14.220 the doubts,
00:31:14.800 and the breakthroughs
00:31:15.840 that made them
00:31:16.360 who they are.
00:31:17.980 They go deep,
00:31:19.460 covering childhood trauma,
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00:31:23.100 and the moments
00:31:23.780 that shape their journey.
00:31:25.440 These honest conversations
00:31:26.780 are meant to take
00:31:27.480 the cape off our heroes
00:31:28.700 with the hope
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00:31:31.440 to become a better you
00:31:32.540 and therefore
00:31:33.620 set you free
00:31:34.400 to live the life
00:31:35.080 of your dreams.
00:31:36.380 Here's a sneak peek.
00:31:38.120 I'm trained to go compete.
00:31:39.420 I'm trained to be,
00:31:40.160 like, harder.
00:31:40.980 But sometimes that mentality
00:31:42.400 stops you from stopping
00:31:43.820 and smelling the flowers
00:31:44.980 in your own garden.
00:31:45.980 Is it wrong to want more?
00:31:47.560 We migrated.
00:31:48.480 Our family migrated here.
00:31:49.760 I'm like second generation.
00:31:51.240 Listen to You Versus You
00:31:52.540 as part of
00:31:53.140 My Cultura Podcast Network.
00:31:55.440 Available on the
00:31:56.160 iHeartRadio app,
00:31:57.420 Apple Podcasts,
00:31:58.500 or wherever you get
00:31:59.200 your podcasts.
00:32:03.920 American history
00:32:04.900 is full
00:32:06.440 of wise people.
00:32:08.480 What woman said
00:32:09.160 something like,
00:32:09.800 you know,
00:32:09.960 99.99% of war
00:32:11.660 is diarrhea
00:32:12.380 and 1% is glory.
00:32:14.800 Those founding fathers
00:32:15.940 were gossipy AF
00:32:18.800 and they loved
00:32:19.540 to cut each other down.
00:32:20.920 I'm Bob Crawford,
00:32:22.180 host of
00:32:22.760 American History Hotline,
00:32:24.280 the show where you
00:32:25.320 send us your questions
00:32:26.160 about American history
00:32:27.480 and I find the answers,
00:32:29.780 including the nuggets
00:32:30.900 of wisdom
00:32:31.560 our history has to offer.
00:32:33.660 Hamilton pauses
00:32:34.520 and then he says,
00:32:35.820 the greatest man
00:32:36.600 that ever lived
00:32:37.180 was Julius Caesar.
00:32:38.900 And Jefferson writes
00:32:40.160 in his diary,
00:32:41.220 this proves that
00:32:41.940 Hamilton is for
00:32:43.100 a dictator
00:32:44.200 based on corruption.
00:32:45.860 My favorite line
00:32:46.880 was what
00:32:47.260 Neil Armstrong said,
00:32:48.620 it would have been
00:32:49.460 harder to fake it
00:32:50.620 than to do it.
00:32:52.000 Listen to
00:32:52.500 American History Hotline
00:32:53.640 on the iHeartRadio app,
00:32:55.540 Apple Podcasts,
00:32:56.780 or wherever
00:32:57.440 you get your podcasts.
00:32:59.100 Just like great shoes,
00:33:04.840 great books
00:33:05.520 take you places
00:33:06.440 through unforgettable
00:33:07.560 love stories
00:33:08.420 and into conversations
00:33:09.680 with characters
00:33:10.500 you'll never forget.
00:33:12.000 I think any good romance,
00:33:13.600 it gives me this feeling
00:33:15.000 of like butterflies.
00:33:16.560 I'm Danielle Robay
00:33:17.520 and this is Bookmarked
00:33:18.720 by Reese's Book Club,
00:33:20.040 the new podcast
00:33:20.680 from Hello Sunshine
00:33:21.720 and iHeart Podcasts.
00:33:23.400 Every week,
00:33:24.140 I sit down with
00:33:24.820 your favorite book lovers,
00:33:26.440 authors,
00:33:27.040 celebrities,
00:33:27.700 book talkers,
00:33:28.340 and more
00:33:28.840 to explore the stories
00:33:30.120 that shape us
00:33:30.960 on the page
00:33:31.800 and off.
00:33:32.960 I've been reading
00:33:33.660 every Reese's Book Club
00:33:34.980 pick,
00:33:35.540 deep diving book talk
00:33:36.580 theories,
00:33:37.240 and obsessing
00:33:38.120 over book-to-screen
00:33:38.980 casts for years.
00:33:40.160 And now,
00:33:40.800 I get to talk to
00:33:41.620 the people
00:33:42.040 making the magic.
00:33:43.440 So if you've ever
00:33:44.100 fallen in love
00:33:44.880 with a fictional character
00:33:46.000 or cried at
00:33:47.220 the last chapter
00:33:47.980 or passed a book
00:33:49.080 to a friend saying
00:33:49.980 you have to read this,
00:33:51.880 this podcast
00:33:52.540 is for you.
00:33:54.500 Listen to
00:33:54.900 Bookmarked
00:33:55.400 by Reese's Book Club
00:33:56.380 on the iHeartRadio app,
00:33:58.240 Apple Podcasts,
00:33:59.140 or wherever you
00:33:59.860 get your podcasts.
00:34:03.140 This week on
00:34:04.100 Dear Chelsea
00:34:04.640 with me,
00:34:05.320 Chelsea Handler.
00:34:06.500 Sophia Bush is here.
00:34:08.300 Tell me how that feels
00:34:09.240 to be a hot
00:34:09.820 considered a hot lesbian.
00:34:11.560 Quite an honor.
00:34:12.620 You know what's funny
00:34:13.400 is you do this weird math
00:34:15.900 like if you're a woman
00:34:16.760 dating men,
00:34:17.940 nobody wants to talk
00:34:18.920 to you about your sexuality.
00:34:20.060 They just want to either say
00:34:21.220 like you're a prude
00:34:22.160 or a slut.
00:34:23.060 You know,
00:34:23.800 if you date too much,
00:34:24.760 they criticize you
00:34:25.680 if you don't date,
00:34:26.440 you must be frigid,
00:34:27.280 whatever.
00:34:28.000 And then the thing
00:34:29.060 that gets added
00:34:29.880 when you're actually
00:34:30.640 more fluid
00:34:31.300 with your sexuality
00:34:32.360 is the swing goes to
00:34:34.800 you better identify
00:34:35.980 exactly who you are
00:34:37.020 so we can figure out
00:34:37.880 what name to call you
00:34:38.860 and it's like,
00:34:40.160 okay.
00:34:41.220 And you know,
00:34:42.040 I sort of looked around
00:34:43.020 and was like,
00:34:43.340 has nobody been paying attention
00:34:44.340 to like all the hot girls
00:34:45.260 I've been kissing on camera?
00:34:47.240 You know,
00:34:47.580 maybe not in front of you
00:34:48.520 off camera,
00:34:49.200 but hi,
00:34:50.360 I've always been here.
00:34:51.140 Listen to Dear Chelsea
00:34:52.920 on the iHeartRadio app,
00:34:54.240 Apple Podcasts,
00:34:55.000 or wherever you get
00:34:56.120 your podcasts.
00:34:58.660 What happens
00:34:59.600 when we come face to face
00:35:01.020 with death?
00:35:02.080 My truck was blown up
00:35:02.940 by a 20-pound
00:35:03.520 anti-tank mine.
00:35:04.860 My parachute
00:35:05.660 did not deploy.
00:35:07.400 I was kidnapped
00:35:08.240 by a drug cartel.
00:35:10.100 I just remember
00:35:11.180 everything getting dark.
00:35:13.600 I'm dying.
00:35:15.060 When we step beyond
00:35:16.120 the edge of what we know,
00:35:17.420 to open our consciousness
00:35:19.040 to something more than
00:35:20.600 just what's in that
00:35:21.420 Western box.
00:35:22.320 And we turn.
00:35:23.660 I clinically died.
00:35:25.260 The heart stopped beating.
00:35:26.240 Which I was dead
00:35:27.160 for 11.5 minutes.
00:35:28.660 My name is Dan Bush.
00:35:29.800 My mission is simple.
00:35:30.980 To find,
00:35:31.820 explore,
00:35:32.720 and share these stories.
00:35:33.920 I'm not a victim.
00:35:34.960 I'm a survivor.
00:35:36.040 You're strongest
00:35:36.780 when you're the most vulnerable.
00:35:38.060 To remind us
00:35:38.840 what it means to be alive.
00:35:40.100 Not just that I was
00:35:41.000 the guy that cut his arm off,
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00:35:43.020 who was smiling
00:35:43.820 when he cut his arm off.
00:35:45.740 Alive Again.
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00:35:52.560 Listen to Alive Again
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00:36:01.480 As it code red,
00:36:03.420 what's happening
00:36:03.980 with vaccines generally,
00:36:05.440 the sort of growing
00:36:07.120 anxiety around vaccines.
00:36:08.280 I was listening
00:36:08.740 to your podcast recently
00:36:10.240 just about,
00:36:10.980 you know,
00:36:11.440 people expressing concern.
00:36:13.000 They're getting so many shots.
00:36:14.120 A young child,
00:36:15.260 newborn,
00:36:15.840 and all of a sudden
00:36:16.320 they're getting four or five shots
00:36:17.520 20 years ago.
00:36:18.720 They may have gotten less shots,
00:36:19.900 but you described
00:36:20.940 a very different construct
00:36:22.500 as it relates to antigens
00:36:23.840 and proteins
00:36:24.800 and dose,
00:36:26.100 which was fascinating to me
00:36:27.960 and obviously calmed,
00:36:30.020 I think,
00:36:30.220 the nerves
00:36:30.560 of those who were inquiring.
00:36:32.220 But talk to me
00:36:33.080 more broadly
00:36:33.640 about the state of vaccines,
00:36:35.280 your anxiety,
00:36:36.600 and push back
00:36:38.180 against some of
00:36:39.500 this vaccine skepticism
00:36:41.120 that's out there.
00:36:41.740 Well,
00:36:42.720 with regard to the,
00:36:44.440 you know,
00:36:44.840 you hear these crazy numbers,
00:36:46.500 you know,
00:36:46.660 72 vaccines
00:36:48.000 and all that.
00:36:49.220 First of all,
00:36:49.580 those are just made up numbers.
00:36:51.920 It's weird to me,
00:36:53.060 Governor.
00:36:53.280 There's no accountability
00:36:54.040 for people saying stuff
00:36:55.500 that's just absolutely not true.
00:36:57.700 I hope people,
00:36:58.520 you know,
00:36:59.380 they always say,
00:37:00.140 do your own research.
00:37:00.920 I hope people do
00:37:01.740 their own research
00:37:02.560 with regard to some of this.
00:37:04.360 So yeah,
00:37:04.720 we vaccinate against
00:37:05.560 more diseases
00:37:06.200 than we used to
00:37:07.160 when you and I were kids.
00:37:08.320 We're around the same age.
00:37:09.080 But what you're referring to
00:37:13.280 is the something
00:37:13.860 known as the antigenic load,
00:37:15.780 which is really what,
00:37:17.020 you know,
00:37:17.520 scientists pay attention to.
00:37:18.760 How much of a,
00:37:19.760 of a sort of load
00:37:20.900 of antigens
00:37:21.580 are we giving to the body?
00:37:23.180 And what you find
00:37:24.300 is that nowadays
00:37:25.740 compared to days
00:37:26.800 when we were still vaccinating
00:37:28.140 against things
00:37:28.660 like smallpox,
00:37:29.480 for example,
00:37:30.640 the load is much,
00:37:32.240 much lower,
00:37:32.900 exponentially lower
00:37:34.120 than we used to give.
00:37:35.640 Even though there's
00:37:36.120 more vaccines,
00:37:37.540 vaccine technology
00:37:38.440 has gotten better.
00:37:39.660 They,
00:37:39.820 they use adjuvants
00:37:40.820 to,
00:37:41.440 so you don't have to give
00:37:42.160 as much of the overall,
00:37:43.580 whether it be live virus
00:37:44.900 or anything else
00:37:45.620 as we used to.
00:37:47.180 So we don't
00:37:48.660 sort of
00:37:50.100 cause the immune system
00:37:51.340 to react
00:37:52.100 nearly as much today
00:37:53.540 as we used to
00:37:54.540 in the past
00:37:55.660 because of that
00:37:56.520 antigenic load.
00:37:57.720 So,
00:37:58.360 you know,
00:37:58.660 numbers of,
00:37:59.680 of shots
00:38:00.400 and all that.
00:38:01.420 Look,
00:38:01.920 again,
00:38:02.160 as a dad,
00:38:02.860 I don't like seeing
00:38:03.580 my kids get shots.
00:38:04.560 I get that.
00:38:05.880 I understand that.
00:38:06.860 But in terms of
00:38:08.560 what it's actually
00:38:09.180 doing to the body
00:38:10.360 compared to what
00:38:11.800 we used to do
00:38:12.360 to the body
00:38:12.920 at a time when,
00:38:14.420 by the way,
00:38:14.740 autism was,
00:38:15.780 was a much lower rate.
00:38:17.320 So we used to give
00:38:18.140 a much bigger
00:38:18.660 antigenic load
00:38:19.500 and lower autism rates.
00:38:21.020 Now we have a much
00:38:21.820 lower antigenic load
00:38:22.960 and we have higher
00:38:23.840 autism rates.
00:38:25.320 Make of that
00:38:26.120 what you may.
00:38:27.320 Those are,
00:38:28.000 that's the data.
00:38:28.620 That's the facts.
00:38:29.660 And,
00:38:30.160 and so I,
00:38:31.020 I,
00:38:31.640 I don't know
00:38:33.120 that I would call it
00:38:33.760 code red,
00:38:34.400 but I think
00:38:35.740 that this,
00:38:36.360 this,
00:38:36.680 the,
00:38:37.800 the argument
00:38:38.500 against,
00:38:39.300 I think,
00:38:39.600 what is a very,
00:38:40.400 very effective
00:38:40.920 preventative strategy
00:38:42.260 gaining a lot
00:38:43.420 of steam.
00:38:44.080 And I think
00:38:44.500 people are becoming
00:38:45.200 increasingly,
00:38:46.060 increasingly
00:38:46.920 concerned about vaccines
00:38:49.080 and hesitant.
00:38:49.840 What did you make?
00:38:50.440 I mean,
00:38:50.620 you were out there
00:38:51.300 in Texas,
00:38:52.040 this measles outbreak.
00:38:53.040 I mean,
00:38:54.220 and,
00:38:54.560 you know,
00:38:54.800 you had folks
00:38:55.320 arguing for more
00:38:56.340 and look,
00:38:57.220 I'm not belittling it,
00:38:58.400 but it was interesting
00:38:59.320 to me.
00:38:59.840 Cod liver,
00:39:01.020 vitamin A
00:39:01.960 is the solution,
00:39:02.840 not vaccines.
00:39:03.620 I was reading
00:39:05.360 in different sources
00:39:06.520 that,
00:39:07.180 you know,
00:39:07.440 a double digit
00:39:08.600 percentage of people
00:39:09.520 that,
00:39:10.000 you know,
00:39:10.900 had measles
00:39:11.980 ended up in the
00:39:12.680 emergency rooms
00:39:13.620 and people are still
00:39:14.840 arguing for
00:39:15.920 heavy loads
00:39:16.780 of vitamin A.
00:39:18.520 I mean,
00:39:18.800 give me a sense of,
00:39:20.440 you know,
00:39:20.640 on the ground
00:39:21.600 truth seeking
00:39:22.760 that you did
00:39:23.540 and,
00:39:24.220 you know,
00:39:24.500 how does that play in
00:39:25.740 sort of a modern
00:39:26.680 flashpoint
00:39:27.380 with this ideological
00:39:28.480 movement
00:39:29.100 and the practical
00:39:30.040 realities on the ground?
00:39:31.420 I think for the
00:39:32.560 physicians
00:39:33.900 and nurses
00:39:34.540 and everybody
00:39:34.980 who's caring
00:39:35.400 for patients there,
00:39:36.120 it was incredibly
00:39:36.840 frustrating for them.
00:39:39.560 I mean,
00:39:39.740 you're talking about
00:39:40.320 a vaccine-preventable
00:39:41.120 disease.
00:39:42.000 We essentially
00:39:42.500 eliminated measles
00:39:43.400 in this country.
00:39:46.060 I think when we
00:39:46.960 say frustrating,
00:39:47.940 it's like,
00:39:48.400 how are we going
00:39:48.920 to make big swings
00:39:50.140 at big important
00:39:51.140 things evolutionarily
00:39:52.300 in science
00:39:52.920 if we can't get
00:39:53.560 the little things
00:39:54.120 right?
00:39:55.320 It's dying
00:39:56.100 of measles,
00:39:57.000 kids even getting
00:39:57.500 sick of measles,
00:39:58.300 being hospitalized
00:39:58.820 with measles.
00:39:59.380 It doesn't need
00:40:00.560 to happen.
00:40:01.240 It's a travesty.
00:40:02.220 You know,
00:40:02.360 and I think most
00:40:02.960 of the people,
00:40:03.580 frankly,
00:40:03.840 that we spoke to
00:40:04.600 and not just people
00:40:05.900 in the medical
00:40:06.280 community,
00:40:06.700 but we spent a lot
00:40:07.480 of time talking
00:40:08.200 to citizens,
00:40:09.320 just going around,
00:40:10.360 taking the temperature.
00:40:11.820 I think there was
00:40:12.220 a lot of frustration,
00:40:13.660 but at the same time,
00:40:14.600 they're being assaulted
00:40:15.300 with all sorts of
00:40:16.520 information that is
00:40:17.920 not accurate.
00:40:19.080 You know,
00:40:19.540 this seemed to have
00:40:22.040 started in a small
00:40:23.280 community,
00:40:24.360 a Mennonite community.
00:40:25.680 And it's really
00:40:26.420 interesting.
00:40:26.800 There's nothing
00:40:27.180 in the religious
00:40:27.720 doctrine that says
00:40:29.200 they shouldn't take
00:40:29.920 measles vaccine.
00:40:31.380 What happens,
00:40:32.400 as we learned,
00:40:33.180 as you may know,
00:40:34.120 Governor,
00:40:34.560 is that these
00:40:35.180 very insular
00:40:35.920 communities,
00:40:36.700 they don't get
00:40:37.500 a lot of outside
00:40:38.160 information often.
00:40:39.720 So they may have
00:40:40.860 somebody in the
00:40:41.400 community whose
00:40:42.240 child developed
00:40:43.380 a febrile seizure
00:40:44.280 or something.
00:40:45.380 I think that's
00:40:45.800 what happened here
00:40:46.460 after a vaccine.
00:40:48.020 That can happen.
00:40:49.580 And right away,
00:40:50.920 that spread like,
00:40:52.120 you know,
00:40:52.640 wildfire through
00:40:53.360 that community,
00:40:53.900 and all of a sudden
00:40:54.380 nobody wanted to
00:40:55.040 get vaccinated.
00:40:55.600 When you're dealing
00:40:56.900 with something as
00:40:57.500 contagious as measles,
00:40:58.600 then that community
00:40:59.640 as they're walking
00:41:00.960 through the town
00:41:02.000 of Gaines or
00:41:03.200 wherever,
00:41:03.860 you know,
00:41:04.640 the Costco or
00:41:05.540 the fast food
00:41:06.240 restaurant,
00:41:06.560 whatever it may be,
00:41:08.080 you can start to
00:41:08.960 spread the virus.
00:41:10.980 So that's what was
00:41:12.080 happening there.
00:41:13.120 I will say to
00:41:14.160 RFK's credit,
00:41:16.100 he did go there
00:41:17.180 and he was
00:41:18.280 conciliatory towards
00:41:19.300 vaccines.
00:41:20.340 He did,
00:41:21.080 he did at least
00:41:21.840 in the moment,
00:41:22.740 recommend the
00:41:24.080 measles vaccine
00:41:24.840 to people,
00:41:25.400 which I thought
00:41:26.200 was really
00:41:26.580 important and
00:41:27.260 really,
00:41:27.680 really good.
00:41:28.960 I think since
00:41:29.760 then he's sort
00:41:30.300 of backtracked
00:41:31.680 on that.
00:41:33.100 Obviously with COVID,
00:41:34.160 I think COVID
00:41:34.760 seems to be
00:41:35.440 sort of low-hanging
00:41:36.160 fruit because
00:41:36.880 the uptake
00:41:37.360 has been so
00:41:37.920 low already
00:41:38.540 that the idea
00:41:40.040 of saying
00:41:40.340 we're not
00:41:40.620 recommending it
00:41:41.260 anymore was
00:41:41.820 sort of,
00:41:42.320 I think,
00:41:42.620 easy.
00:41:43.460 But I think
00:41:43.760 with regard
00:41:44.220 to MMR
00:41:44.920 and other
00:41:45.320 things,
00:41:47.280 they're
00:41:48.060 critically
00:41:48.440 important.
00:41:49.980 And,
00:41:50.280 you know,
00:41:50.760 I think the,
00:41:51.740 hopefully that
00:41:52.280 message continues
00:41:53.220 to get out there.
00:41:53.760 I think it's
00:41:54.180 changing even
00:41:55.360 in West Texas.
00:41:56.500 I think that,
00:41:57.020 you know,
00:41:57.220 you did see
00:41:57.740 increased measles
00:41:58.380 uptake.
00:41:58.880 We were at
00:41:59.140 clinics,
00:42:00.120 pop-up clinics,
00:42:00.740 and people were
00:42:01.380 showing up to
00:42:01.960 get measles
00:42:02.340 vaccine that
00:42:02.940 had never
00:42:03.220 been vaccinated
00:42:03.780 in their
00:42:04.160 lives.
00:42:05.060 So,
00:42:05.540 you know,
00:42:05.820 I think in
00:42:06.200 the throes
00:42:06.660 of something
00:42:07.060 like that,
00:42:07.820 you do see
00:42:08.700 behavior changing
00:42:09.900 a bit.
00:42:11.020 It's encouraging.
00:42:12.320 In the behavior,
00:42:14.280 and I appreciate
00:42:15.540 your reverence,
00:42:16.400 R.F.K.,
00:42:16.900 but it just
00:42:18.020 depends on the
00:42:18.600 day of the
00:42:18.920 week.
00:42:19.160 I mean,
00:42:19.940 he says that
00:42:20.980 when he's there
00:42:21.800 on the ground,
00:42:22.320 and then he gets
00:42:22.860 into a cabinet
00:42:23.960 meeting and says,
00:42:24.720 well,
00:42:24.800 we have outbreaks
00:42:25.420 all the time,
00:42:26.240 and,
00:42:26.780 you know,
00:42:26.960 even though this
00:42:27.480 disease was
00:42:28.040 substantially,
00:42:29.160 you know,
00:42:29.820 what,
00:42:30.240 2000,
00:42:30.900 it was declared
00:42:31.500 gone,
00:42:32.020 right?
00:42:32.500 Correct.
00:42:32.920 It was declared
00:42:33.640 eliminated at
00:42:34.660 that point.
00:42:35.640 And there have
00:42:36.120 been some measles
00:42:36.660 outbreaks since
00:42:37.620 then.
00:42:38.020 I mean,
00:42:38.240 there was one
00:42:38.780 in 2019,
00:42:39.840 I think it
00:42:40.380 affected Disneyland
00:42:41.260 in California
00:42:42.580 as well,
00:42:43.360 Minnesota,
00:42:44.460 Brooklyn.
00:42:44.760 So there have
00:42:45.800 been measles
00:42:46.300 outbreaks,
00:42:46.860 but,
00:42:47.080 you know,
00:42:47.300 this vaccine
00:42:49.500 hesitancy issue
00:42:51.020 has been around
00:42:51.960 for a while.
00:42:53.340 You know,
00:42:53.440 I've been a
00:42:53.700 reporter for 25
00:42:54.440 years now almost,
00:42:55.620 and I'll tell you
00:42:56.700 what's interesting
00:42:57.380 to me,
00:42:57.820 and I'm curious
00:42:58.380 if this is
00:42:58.780 interesting to
00:42:59.300 you,
00:42:59.560 but if 10
00:43:00.440 years ago,
00:43:00.880 if you said
00:43:01.240 who is the
00:43:01.960 most likely
00:43:02.680 person in
00:43:03.920 America to
00:43:05.020 be vaccine
00:43:05.640 hesitant,
00:43:06.620 describe that
00:43:07.140 person.
00:43:08.040 And I think
00:43:08.660 what you would
00:43:09.040 likely have
00:43:09.560 described at
00:43:10.100 that point
00:43:10.500 was a young
00:43:11.300 person,
00:43:12.380 liberal,
00:43:13.200 and woman,
00:43:13.900 usually a
00:43:14.320 That's right.
00:43:15.140 Oh yeah,
00:43:15.520 trust me,
00:43:16.020 I grew up
00:43:17.720 in the Bay
00:43:18.140 Area,
00:43:18.600 so you can
00:43:19.040 appreciate it,
00:43:19.620 in California,
00:43:20.300 I know a lot
00:43:20.660 of them.
00:43:21.360 Yeah.
00:43:22.240 Perfectly
00:43:22.640 described.
00:43:24.140 And now in
00:43:25.140 2025,
00:43:26.180 I think the
00:43:26.580 demographics have
00:43:27.420 changed in
00:43:28.020 terms of who's
00:43:28.540 most likely to
00:43:29.280 be vaccine
00:43:29.920 hesitant or
00:43:30.740 resistant.
00:43:32.040 Older,
00:43:33.140 white,
00:43:33.840 conservative
00:43:34.200 men.
00:43:35.540 And I,
00:43:36.200 you know,
00:43:36.960 I'm not a
00:43:37.560 politician,
00:43:38.160 but I'll
00:43:38.740 tell you,
00:43:39.120 I think that
00:43:39.740 these issues
00:43:41.400 are used as
00:43:42.040 proxy issues
00:43:42.800 for a larger
00:43:43.440 sort of
00:43:44.200 conflict.
00:43:45.880 I don't,
00:43:46.140 you know,
00:43:46.600 vaccines are
00:43:47.540 the issue,
00:43:48.320 I think people
00:43:48.880 glom onto,
00:43:49.820 it's understandable,
00:43:50.860 they can sink
00:43:51.280 their teeth into
00:43:51.980 it and all
00:43:52.820 that,
00:43:53.200 but within
00:43:54.060 10 years,
00:43:54.860 even less
00:43:55.340 than that,
00:43:55.720 frankly,
00:43:55.980 I think it
00:43:56.220 was 2019,
00:43:57.320 maybe six
00:43:57.800 years ago,
00:43:58.820 you would have
00:43:59.120 said young
00:43:59.460 liberal woman
00:43:59.960 and now
00:44:00.400 older conservative
00:44:01.220 man.
00:44:01.840 I think within
00:44:02.680 six years,
00:44:03.340 it's completely
00:44:04.120 flipped.
00:44:05.060 And I think
00:44:05.340 there's other
00:44:05.820 proxy issues
00:44:06.660 like that as
00:44:07.140 well.
00:44:07.340 And I think
00:44:07.620 it just sends
00:44:08.040 a signal
00:44:08.440 that these
00:44:09.120 are,
00:44:09.820 you can't
00:44:10.420 disentangle
00:44:11.020 anything from
00:44:11.580 politics.
00:44:12.780 I never
00:44:13.260 thought of
00:44:13.700 vaccine hesitancy
00:44:14.760 as a political
00:44:15.400 issue.
00:44:15.780 I thought it
00:44:16.220 was concerned
00:44:16.700 moms.
00:44:17.760 My wife would
00:44:18.620 have conversations,
00:44:19.460 should we get
00:44:19.740 all the vaccines
00:44:20.280 at once or
00:44:20.900 should we spread
00:44:21.360 them out a little
00:44:21.840 bit?
00:44:22.040 And I would
00:44:22.300 sit down and
00:44:22.760 talk to her
00:44:23.160 about antigenic
00:44:23.860 load and all
00:44:24.500 that.
00:44:25.920 And I think
00:44:26.320 she definitely
00:44:27.160 listened to me,
00:44:27.940 but it required
00:44:28.660 a conversation.
00:44:30.060 So I got that.
00:44:31.860 Now it's all
00:44:33.460 politics, it seems,
00:44:34.500 and that's very
00:44:35.400 difficult to sort
00:44:36.280 of confront.
00:44:36.720 No, and I
00:44:37.660 mean, I think it
00:44:38.080 goes to our
00:44:38.540 opening conversation
00:44:39.400 as well.
00:44:40.080 I mean, that was
00:44:40.760 certainly the case
00:44:41.760 with Michelle
00:44:42.300 Obama.
00:44:43.100 I mean, she
00:44:43.520 was just ridiculed
00:44:45.120 and attacked for
00:44:47.040 focusing on healthy
00:44:48.320 foods and focusing
00:44:50.140 on our kids and
00:44:51.720 chronic disease and
00:44:52.920 issues around
00:44:54.080 obesity.
00:44:54.980 And that's why I
00:44:56.040 think it's important
00:44:56.640 for those that
00:44:58.780 may be critical of
00:45:00.640 the MAGA
00:45:01.360 movement to be
00:45:02.840 at least sensitive
00:45:03.920 to the attributes
00:45:05.640 and the positive
00:45:06.600 components of the
00:45:08.180 MAGA frame that
00:45:10.040 is focusing on
00:45:11.360 the same issue
00:45:12.400 coming up from
00:45:13.000 different political
00:45:13.780 lens, certainly,
00:45:15.220 and not get, you
00:45:16.740 know, sort of
00:45:17.240 caught up in this
00:45:18.120 vaccine issue when
00:45:19.420 we focus on the
00:45:20.200 fundamental issues
00:45:20.940 of wellness, which
00:45:21.980 I think we just as
00:45:23.120 a country need to
00:45:24.040 come to grips with.
00:45:25.300 I think that's the
00:45:26.280 challenge.
00:45:26.520 People like to look
00:45:27.080 at these in binary
00:45:27.820 ways.
00:45:28.660 MAGA bad, MAGA
00:45:29.620 good.
00:45:30.440 There's goods and
00:45:31.040 bads to it.
00:45:31.560 You know, I think
00:45:31.940 there's a lot of
00:45:32.440 stuff that as a
00:45:33.900 health, very
00:45:34.560 health conscious
00:45:35.160 person,
00:45:35.640 myself, someone
00:45:36.480 who thinks a lot
00:45:37.160 about longevity.
00:45:38.080 I got parents in
00:45:38.860 80s.
00:45:39.520 I got teenage
00:45:40.220 kids.
00:45:40.660 I think about
00:45:41.080 this all the
00:45:41.540 time.
00:45:42.320 There's a lot
00:45:42.740 of things that
00:45:43.320 the MAGA
00:45:44.200 movement says
00:45:44.840 that I totally
00:45:45.540 agree with.
00:45:46.420 And again, things
00:45:47.120 that you have
00:45:48.260 been doing in
00:45:48.740 California with
00:45:49.440 regard to our
00:45:50.060 foods.
00:45:51.180 I think 70% of
00:45:52.940 illness, chronic
00:45:53.760 disease in this
00:45:54.320 country is
00:45:54.720 preventable.
00:45:56.080 And again, we
00:45:57.100 spend four and a
00:45:57.660 half trillion
00:45:58.120 dollars on it.
00:45:59.120 So preventing
00:45:59.900 70%, I mean,
00:46:02.400 medically, obviously
00:46:03.420 important, but also
00:46:05.180 morally and
00:46:05.880 financially and
00:46:06.540 everything else, the
00:46:07.800 vast majority of
00:46:09.440 those preventable
00:46:10.200 disease, I think,
00:46:10.880 comes in how we
00:46:11.580 nourish ourselves, our
00:46:12.460 food supply.
00:46:13.560 So I totally
00:46:14.980 understand that.
00:46:16.080 Again, I wish it
00:46:16.880 didn't have to be
00:46:17.660 done in a mean
00:46:19.540 spirited way.
00:46:20.740 You know, it's just
00:46:21.640 not my personality to
00:46:22.860 be vitriolic to get
00:46:23.940 things done.
00:46:25.020 But on the other
00:46:25.620 hand, I think people
00:46:26.960 have been talking
00:46:27.520 about trying to
00:46:28.140 reform our food
00:46:28.880 supply for a
00:46:29.760 quarter century and
00:46:30.400 it hasn't really
00:46:31.040 been done.
00:46:31.540 maybe this will
00:46:34.340 it's already
00:46:35.100 leading to some
00:46:35.680 changes with
00:46:36.420 regard to food
00:46:37.040 dyes and things
00:46:37.680 like that.
00:46:38.060 We'll see where
00:46:38.440 that all lands.
00:46:39.800 So I think some
00:46:40.400 of it is really
00:46:41.300 important, but
00:46:42.120 there's other
00:46:42.840 parts of it that
00:46:43.620 I think, and
00:46:44.640 vaccines, I guess,
00:46:45.400 would be the best
00:46:45.860 example where I
00:46:47.100 have real concerns.
00:46:49.220 Tune in for more
00:46:50.100 with Dr. Sanjay
00:46:51.200 Buktu.
00:46:54.720 This is an
00:46:55.360 iHeart Podcast.
00:46:56.240 This is an
00:47:10.040 iHeart Podcast.
00:47:10.140 This has
00:47:10.940 been a
00:47:13.240 iHeart Podcast.
00:47:14.980 This
00:47:16.040 has been
00:47:18.300 a
00:47:19.400 anybody
00:47:19.860 has
00:47:19.960 that
00:47:21.080 want
00:47:22.080 a