This is Gavin Newsom - And, This Is Dr. Sanjay Gupta

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00:01:04.600 Just like great shoes, great books take you places.

00:01:08.360 Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.

00:01:13.520 I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.

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00:01:45.020 This week on Dear Chelsea, with me, Chelsea Handler, Sophia Bush is here. 0.95

00:01:50.460 Tell me how that feels to be a hot, considered a hot lesbian. 1.00

00:01:53.900 Quite an honor. 0.93

00:01:54.960 You know what's funny?

00:01:55.900 When you're actually more fluid with your sexuality, the swing goes from, 0.94

00:02:00.240 nobody gives a shit who you're sleeping with, to, you better identify exactly who you are so we can figure out what name to call you. 1.00

00:02:06.500 And it's like, has nobody been paying attention to like all the hot girls I've been kissing on camera? 0.99

00:02:11.400 Hi, I've always been here.

00:02:12.600 Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:02:22.540 I know a lot of cops.

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00:02:35.500 This is Absolute Season 1.

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00:02:49.880 This is Gavin Newsom.

00:03:03.840 This is Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

00:03:05.840 Sanjay, it's great to have you.

00:03:10.060 I appreciate the opportunity because, look, all of us are reflecting on whether this is, as it feels to many of us, one of the most sort of challenging and profoundly consequential moments with health care policy in our lifetime,

00:03:25.800 or perhaps putting it more perspective, more historically, even thinking back a little bit to Obamacare and their debates and the sort of fundamental shifts in health policy were taking shape there.

00:03:36.140 So I thought I'd just open up, just ask you about the landscape, ask you about your perspective, particularly from the prism of not just a policy expert and a pundit, but also as a practitioner.

00:03:47.940 What world are we living in as it relates to health care policy in the United States today?

00:03:54.060 Well, you know, broadly speaking, I think one of, and we've been talking, thinking about this a lot, is sort of what is the United States role when it comes to science, health care science, public health, all of that.

00:04:09.300 I think for 80-some years, we were sort of the world leaders, sort of post-World War II.

00:04:16.380 That became part of our DNA in the United States and take great pride in it.

00:04:19.940 We recruit the best scientists in the world.

00:04:22.600 Some of the greatest scientific achievements over the last century have come from the United States.

00:04:26.860 And I think it's been something that certainly people in the scientific community, but I think the population at large really have rallied behind, taken great pride in people coming from other countries for our medical care, new therapies coming out of the United States, all of that.

00:04:44.000 And I think one of the, and I don't want to overstate this, but I think one of the worrisome things right now is, is that still the case?

00:04:52.180 Do we still think that that's important? Kind of like maybe how we talked about, my parents both worked in the auto industry.

00:04:59.440 And I think there was a, there was a time period where people said, should we still be building cars in the United States?

00:05:04.720 And my parents both ended up leaving the auto industry in 2001, because they were fearful that the, the industry was just going to change.

00:05:11.600 It did not, got bailed out, as you know, and all these things happened. And here we are today.

00:05:16.360 I think it sort of feels this has some of those same tones as that.

00:05:21.000 Are we going to look back 20 years from now and say, the United States is still the global leader when it comes to these things?

00:05:27.920 That's, that's the thing that I worry about sort of philosophically, sort of more practically speaking.

00:05:34.820 Governor is something you talk about a lot as well. We're not a healthy country.

00:05:38.880 We spend four and a half trillion dollars on healthcare.

00:05:41.640 And we don't have a lot to show for it in terms of outcomes, in terms of overall health.

00:05:47.160 I think we saw that ripped off like a bandaid during the pandemic.

00:05:51.100 People say, how could a country that spends that kind of money do so poorly with regard to patient outcomes?

00:05:56.280 We walked in pretty unhealthy into that situation.

00:05:59.100 So I think some of that needs to change.

00:06:01.560 And frankly, most of that problem, I think, is in how we nourish ourselves.

00:06:08.340 You know, the foods that we put into our body, the chemicals that we ingest.

00:06:12.400 It's, it's, it's a problem.

00:06:14.000 It's part of the reason I got into medical journalism in the first place.

00:06:16.740 That needs to change.

00:06:18.040 And people have been saying that for a long time.

00:06:20.080 You talk about it in California.

00:06:22.540 First Lady Obama used to talk about that.

00:06:24.940 You know, Michael Bloomberg talked about that when he was mayor of New York.

00:06:29.420 So it's not a new discussion, but I think it's one that needs to be had.

00:06:33.940 So I want to get to both subjects, because I think it's interesting as you start with the larger issue, as some of us, and I'm not putting words in your mouth, but this sort of this war on knowledge, more broadly speaking.

00:06:45.480 And certainly scientific expression is a part of that.

00:06:48.740 And this notion of just confidence in transparency, truth, trust, we can get to mis and disinformation, and how that debate plays out differently through the lens, ideological lens, on both sides of the political prism.

00:07:03.540 But the interesting thing, I think you underscored, is just this, this trend line that's been decades and decades that's, I think, growing headline in some ways because of this Maha movement.

00:07:14.140 And I think if there's one sort of reckoning, it's a recognition with RFK Jr., and we can get to the more controversial aspects of it.

00:07:22.700 But this whole Maha movement is interesting to me.

00:07:24.700 You brought up Obama, First Lady Michelle Obama, in the Let's Move campaign, her focus on issues of chronic disease, obesity, school lunches, which was exceptional at the time.

00:07:36.500 And I was exceptionally engaged in that campaign.

00:07:39.560 I think it was a 2010-ish, plus or minus.

00:07:42.600 But where are you in this Maha movement?

00:07:44.740 Do you think it's a breakthrough in terms of consciousness, on a wellness frame, on a focus on some of these broader issues that have been under-resourced in terms of time and attention?

00:07:54.700 That's a good question.

00:07:55.680 I do think a lot more people are talking about this.

00:07:58.860 You know, I wish it didn't require, you know, sort of really demeaning certain populations of people to do it.

00:08:08.000 But there's no question it has struck a nerve.

00:08:10.220 And I hear people talking about it from circles that I had not heard people talking about this before, just in terms of really wanting to have some autonomy over their own health.

00:08:20.140 So there's a lot of kernels of truth, I think, to what is happening out of the Maha movement.

00:08:25.960 It is, I think, largely based on precautionary principle, which we can talk about more because I think there's other aspects of what is happening in health care that are the opposite of precautionary principle.

00:08:37.300 So this demand for more evidence and replication of evidence and it's not just be careful, it's let's prove this to the nth degree before we make any movements.

00:08:47.680 But with regard to ultra-processed foods, with regard to petroleum-based dyes, some of these petroleum-based dyes, Governor, should have probably never been approved.

00:08:56.920 They have no nutritional value.

00:08:59.040 They were purely aesthetic.

00:09:00.500 There's many countries around the world that don't have them.

00:09:03.160 These food manufacturers can clearly make these products without them.

00:09:06.920 I have kids.

00:09:08.260 I've worried about this for a long time.

00:09:10.540 So people have been talking about it, but no one got it done.

00:09:13.280 You did in California, and now it's starting to happen, I think, more at a national level.

00:09:17.660 You know what's interesting, Sanjay, is some of the things we let on, I appreciate you highlighting.

00:09:22.220 I mean, this has been a passion project for me going back to my mayor days when you referenced Mayor Bloomberg.

00:09:27.480 He and I were very competitive in this space as mayors.

00:09:30.500 He with a much larger platform in New York.

00:09:33.880 I with a little smaller platform in San Francisco.

00:09:36.260 But I've deeply been committed, as you have in terms of all your work, focusing not on sick care, but health care, focusing on social determinants of health, which we'll talk about in a moment in wellness and prevention.

00:09:50.080 But one of the things that is really, you know, came to the fore with me through a political lens was this notion of ultra-processed food, but specifically as it relates to food dyes.

00:09:59.360 And we did something that was referred to on the far right, which was the great irony and mocked.

00:10:05.340 I mean, I can't tell you how many, with respect to another news network there, three-letter news network, mocked consistently called the Skittles ban because we were removing red dye and we were the first state to do that.

00:10:18.900 But now it seems to be socialized in the political spectrum on the right as sort of, you know, endowed leadership from the Maha movement.

00:10:29.880 But what was the movement towards all this?

00:10:33.040 I mean, there's chemicals aside, but additives, there's sort of obsession.

00:10:37.840 Is it just, was it taste?

00:10:39.660 Was it texture that we were after?

00:10:41.680 Was it longevity, freshness?

00:10:44.020 Why the U.S., not the EU?

00:10:46.060 What was it, what is unique about the United States that we became overly indulgent in these additives and chemicals?

00:10:53.740 I think it's more than, more than one thing, but I do think a lot of it had to do with longevity initially, increasing shelf life of food.

00:11:02.280 And that really got at a lot of additives, even going back to hydrogenated corn syrup versus sugar.

00:11:09.240 You know, when you're adding these types of things in there, you're not only adding sweetness to some extent, but you're adding how moist the food is and how long it's going to last on a shelf.

00:11:19.640 I think trying to, I remember, you know, former President Clinton used to talk about this.

00:11:25.100 You can feed a lot of people a lot of calories for cheap if you're having these ultra-processed foods.

00:11:32.080 You know, feed a family at McDonald's for, you know, 25 bucks, you know, if you have ultra-processed foods.

00:11:38.160 So I think it, you know, if you increase shelf life, you can decrease costs.

00:11:41.480 I do think the aesthetics of the food is not an issue to be minimized, though.

00:11:47.440 It's very, I don't know if you heard the story about what happened with Froot Loops, I think, back about 11 years ago, 2014 timeframe, where, you know, they basically said, all right, let's remove some of these food dyes.

00:11:59.540 There was a lot of pressure to remove the food dyes.

00:12:02.300 And the Froot Loops, as a result, were not as brightly colored.

00:12:06.060 They were kind of bland colored.

00:12:07.120 Or if you go to Europe and go to a, you know, hotel or something, and you go to the breakfast buffet and you get Froot Loops, they're bland colored Froot Loops.

00:12:14.300 They're the same Froot Loops otherwise, but they just don't look the same.

00:12:17.480 And what they found when they did that in the United States was two things.

00:12:21.620 One is that people didn't buy those blandly colored Froot Loops.

00:12:25.480 And two is they kind of got accused of the same thing that you were talking about, sort of nanny state, don't take away our brightly colored Froot Loops.

00:12:32.300 Same thing that Mayor Bloomberg got accused of when he wanted to not sell 16-ounce sodas anymore.

00:12:38.200 The big gulps.

00:12:38.720 Any state.

00:12:40.000 And so it's really, it's interesting, Governor, this balance between personal freedom and health.

00:12:47.020 And what is interesting is that you can be sort of thinking the same thing and approach that in two completely different ways.

00:12:55.680 One hand, I'm going to do precautionary principle.

00:12:58.020 We're not going to have food dyes.

00:12:59.420 It doesn't make sense.

00:13:00.180 No nutritional value.

00:13:01.120 Why would we do that?

00:13:02.300 I kind of agree with that.

00:13:04.160 Again, as a health-conscious person myself, I like to eat right.

00:13:07.960 I like to exercise every day.

00:13:09.280 Why would I do something like that to my body?

00:13:11.700 On the other hand, what is the level of evidence you need to have before making a decision?

00:13:17.960 Prove to me that red dye number three is bad. 0.86

00:13:20.120 Prove it.

00:13:20.920 Maybe some will say, why do you need to prove it?

00:13:22.820 It causes cancer in animals and we should have never approved it anyways.

00:13:26.160 But what is the level of evidence?

00:13:27.740 And that's going to extend, I think, beyond food and additives to vaccines and therapeutics and other things.

00:13:34.880 I think that's going to be the crux of the issue.

00:13:36.820 And it's important.

00:13:38.800 On the precautionary frame and the precautionary principle, I think that's fundamentally, isn't it, the difference between the EU policy, where so many of these foods just simply never make the shelf, and fundamental policy that's advanced in the United States.

00:13:50.980 That is exactly, your friend, I think, Todd Wagner, who's a friend of mine as well, he talks about this a lot.

00:13:57.620 He started this organization, Food Fight.

00:13:59.820 And, you know, when I spent time talking to these folks and reporting on this, people will always say the same thing, which is I go to Europe, I eat the same foods, I eat pasta, I do whatever, and I feel great.

00:14:10.940 I lose weight, I lose weight, all that.

00:14:14.700 Now, some of that may be that you're active more over there as well.

00:14:18.840 There could be other things.

00:14:20.120 But I think there's something definitely to that.

00:14:24.600 And I think that's a little bit more than precautionary principle.

00:14:28.480 You have these large cohorts of the population that say, I have lived in both those worlds.

00:14:34.560 I've eaten both these foods, and I can feel the difference in my own body.

00:14:38.060 I think you can't ignore that.

00:14:39.980 But, again, with the backdrop that those petroleum-based dyes don't have any nutritional value, not losing anything by stripping them out other than aesthetics, which, you know, may be important to people.

00:14:52.400 People do like their brightly colored Froot Loops, as it turns out.

00:14:58.960 Don't miss the You Versus You podcast.

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00:15:54.760 American history is full of wise people.

00:16:03.020 What women said something like, you know, 99.99% of war is diarrhea and 1% is glory. 1.00

00:16:09.680 Those founding fathers were gossipy AF, and they loved to cut each other down.

00:16:15.800 I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, the show where you send us your questions about American history,

00:16:22.320 and I find the answers, including the nuggets of wisdom our history has to offer.

00:16:28.500 Hamilton pauses, and then he says,

00:16:30.640 the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar.

00:16:33.960 And Jefferson writes in his diary,

00:16:36.080 this proves that Hamilton is for a dictator based on corruption.

00:16:40.720 My favorite line was what Neil Armstrong said.

00:16:43.340 It would have been harder to fake it than to do it.

00:16:47.020 Listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app,

00:16:49.880 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:16:57.940 Just like great shoes, great books take you places.

00:17:01.700 Through unforgettable love stories, and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.

00:17:06.860 I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of, like, butterflies.

00:17:11.060 I'm Danielle Robay, and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club,

00:17:14.900 the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts.

00:17:18.400 Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers,

00:17:21.280 authors, celebrities, book talkers, and more,

00:17:23.860 to explore the stories that shape us, on the page and off.

00:17:27.760 I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick,

00:17:30.400 deep-diving book talk theories,

00:17:32.080 and obsessing over book-to-screen casts for years.

00:17:34.900 And now, I get to talk to the people making the magic.

00:17:37.980 So if you've ever fallen in love with a fictional character,

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00:17:45.180 you have to read this,

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00:17:51.220 on the iHeartRadio app,

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00:17:55.420 This week on Dear Chelsea, with me, Chelsea Handler.

00:18:01.360 Sophia Bush is here.

00:18:02.960 Tell me how that feels to be a hot, 0.99

00:18:04.720 considered a hot lesbian. 1.00

00:18:06.380 Quite an honor. 0.97

00:18:07.460 You know what's funny is,

00:18:09.260 you do this weird math,

00:18:10.860 like if you're a woman dating men,

00:18:12.720 nobody wants to talk to you about your sexuality.

00:18:14.900 They just want to either say, like, 1.00

00:18:16.400 you're a prude or a slut, you know? 1.00

00:18:18.500 If you date too much, they criticize you. 1.00

00:18:20.580 If you don't date, you must be frigid, whatever.

00:18:22.320 And then the thing that gets added

00:18:24.740 when you're actually more fluid with your sexuality

00:18:27.220 is the swing goes to,

00:18:30.040 you better identify exactly who you are

00:18:31.860 so we can figure out what name to call you.

00:18:33.800 And it's like, okay.

00:18:36.000 And, you know, I sort of looked around and was like,

00:18:38.160 has nobody been paying attention

00:18:39.200 to like all the hot girls I've been kissing on camera?

00:18:42.100 You know, maybe not in front of you off camera,

00:18:44.060 but hi, I've always been here.

00:18:46.780 Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app,

00:18:49.080 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:18:52.320 What happens when we come face to face with death?

00:18:56.980 My truck was blown up by a 20-pound anti-tank mine.

00:18:59.700 My parachute did not deploy.

00:19:02.260 I was kidnapped by a drug cartel.

00:19:04.960 I just remember everything getting dark.

00:19:08.460 I'm dying.

00:19:09.940 When we step beyond the edge of what we know.

00:19:12.260 To open our consciousness

00:19:13.880 to something more than just what's in that Western box.

00:19:17.140 And return.

00:19:18.520 I clinically died.

00:19:19.700 The heart stopped beating.

00:19:21.100 Which I was dead for 11.5 minutes.

00:19:23.580 My name is Dan Bush.

00:19:24.660 My mission is simple.

00:19:25.840 To find, explore, and share these stories.

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00:19:32.940 To remind us what it means to be alive.

00:19:35.080 Not just that I was the guy that cut his arm off,

00:19:37.120 but I'm the guy who was smiling

00:19:38.660 when he cut his arm off.

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00:19:41.080 A podcast about the fragility of life,

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00:19:45.420 and what it means to truly live.

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00:19:52.660 So you talk about,

00:19:57.720 and you talk in the terms of precautionary principles,

00:20:00.300 sort of the two ends of this,

00:20:02.420 and you referenced the issue of vaccines.

00:20:04.180 Is that a reference to mRNA vaccines?

00:20:07.220 In what respect is a precautionary principle,

00:20:11.760 sort of the 180 degree flip side of that principle,

00:20:16.080 being abused in terms of,

00:20:17.400 or is it just more over on what more evidence do you need

00:20:20.340 of something being bad or good?

00:20:22.800 Is it the same thing?

00:20:23.740 Yeah.

00:20:24.420 I think it's mRNA vaccines,

00:20:27.940 but more widely,

00:20:29.340 I think it's vaccines in general.

00:20:31.700 And I think it's maybe even the response

00:20:34.100 to things like a pandemic.

00:20:36.240 You know,

00:20:36.660 when you're dealing with something that is novel.

00:20:40.940 I mean, by the way,

00:20:42.720 you know, COVID was a novel disease.

00:20:45.720 We had never experienced it before.

00:20:48.360 And I know people said that a lot,

00:20:50.140 novel virus,

00:20:50.960 you heard that a lot.

00:20:51.860 But I mean,

00:20:52.240 if you really sit and think about that,

00:20:54.360 it's kind of extraordinary.

00:20:55.860 I mean,

00:20:56.040 as an adult,

00:20:56.800 we don't get to experience novel things very often.

00:21:00.860 Kids experience novel things all the time.

00:21:02.960 But when is the last time you,

00:21:05.200 Governor,

00:21:05.700 experienced something for the first time?

00:21:08.140 Doesn't happen very often.

00:21:10.020 So now you're dealing with something that is novel,

00:21:12.180 and you have to say,

00:21:13.380 okay, look,

00:21:13.860 our response isn't going to be exactly right.

00:21:17.000 Nothing's exactly right.

00:21:19.000 Where are we going to tilt?

00:21:20.360 What side are we going to err on?

00:21:21.480 Are we going to err on precautionary principle?

00:21:23.980 Or are we going to err on the side of,

00:21:26.200 let's sort of see how things go

00:21:27.900 and, you know,

00:21:28.680 figure it out as we go along.

00:21:30.500 And I think,

00:21:31.200 you know,

00:21:31.500 public health,

00:21:32.720 the training often is to sort of side

00:21:36.000 with precautionary principle.

00:21:37.660 It's like,

00:21:38.040 let's be careful

00:21:38.880 as we sort of sort this out.

00:21:40.360 How is this virus behaving?

00:21:41.560 Who's it affecting?

00:21:42.160 So I think mRNA vaccines were part of that.

00:21:45.740 I mean,

00:21:45.920 people,

00:21:46.340 I think,

00:21:46.740 understandably would say,

00:21:48.220 we need long-term data on these things

00:21:51.480 before we start,

00:21:53.000 you know,

00:21:53.780 releasing them.

00:21:54.940 I think that's a really fair sort of thing to say.

00:21:57.300 But you realize that in the middle of a pandemic,

00:21:59.840 to get long-term data means you have to wait long-term.

00:22:03.120 Are you going to wait five years,

00:22:04.900 10 years?

00:22:05.800 What does long-term mean?

00:22:07.420 You know,

00:22:07.580 if it's for a kid,

00:22:08.280 is it 80 years?

00:22:09.620 What does it mean in terms of how long

00:22:11.540 you're willing to wait?

00:22:12.900 What struck me,

00:22:14.300 and again,

00:22:14.660 this is finding the balance

00:22:15.820 between precautionary principle

00:22:17.540 and evidence,

00:22:19.000 is that we knew that for vaccines,

00:22:21.900 the vast majority of the time,

00:22:23.760 greater than 90% of the time,

00:22:24.960 if side effects were to occur,

00:22:26.940 they would occur within the first 68 days.

00:22:29.720 That was the number.

00:22:30.660 So just over two months.

00:22:32.800 So then the idea that the FDA would say,

00:22:34.640 well,

00:22:34.700 let's wait three months.

00:22:36.480 Let's just,

00:22:37.000 let's try and cover as many possible

00:22:39.000 side effects that'll come from this as possible

00:22:40.740 before we give emergency use authorization.

00:22:44.540 That is an example,

00:22:46.140 I think,

00:22:46.460 of policy that you have to sort of think about

00:22:48.900 in the throes of something like this.

00:22:50.980 It is still precautionary

00:22:52.560 because we don't know the long-term data.

00:22:55.500 On the other hand,

00:22:56.180 you're using the best evidence

00:22:57.440 that we do have

00:22:58.340 in terms of what history has taught us.

00:23:00.700 And I think,

00:23:01.360 you know,

00:23:01.980 I know it's been a sort of cluster

00:23:04.080 since that,

00:23:05.400 but I think at the time

00:23:06.620 to me as a reporter,

00:23:08.860 medical reporter

00:23:09.540 and as a doctor,

00:23:10.740 but also as a dad,

00:23:12.600 that made sense.

00:23:13.920 Yeah.

00:23:14.400 The side effects are going to occur.

00:23:15.660 They usually occur within two,

00:23:17.000 two and a half months.

00:23:18.600 Let's keep a close eye on this thing.

00:23:20.500 Watch it like a hawk.

00:23:22.420 Wait even longer than that.

00:23:24.440 And at that point,

00:23:25.260 if things look good,

00:23:26.560 then I go ahead and provide an EUA for it.

00:23:29.960 I mean,

00:23:30.220 it's interesting.

00:23:31.640 It continues to this day.

00:23:32.800 I mean,

00:23:33.020 obviously at the state level,

00:23:35.000 we saw the Surgeon General of Florida

00:23:36.860 come out and recommend

00:23:38.640 against mRNA vaccines.

00:23:41.840 Obviously the president

00:23:42.580 has spoken from every side

00:23:44.980 on this issue.

00:23:46.460 I mean,

00:23:46.900 considering he,

00:23:48.040 through Operation Warp Speed,

00:23:49.260 was the one advancing

00:23:50.200 the platform and the technology.

00:23:53.180 But obviously the new

00:23:54.040 Health and Human Service Secretary

00:23:55.400 has been very critical

00:23:57.240 and has been prone,

00:23:59.320 arguably,

00:23:59.880 to some sort of wild-eyed theories

00:24:01.940 around DNA issues

00:24:04.400 related to the mRNA vaccine

00:24:08.660 and concerns around DNA,

00:24:10.840 concerns obviously around its safety

00:24:12.540 and the side effects.

00:24:15.460 Where are you now

00:24:16.880 in terms of just your concerns?

00:24:19.060 mRNA is not just for COVID vaccine, right?

00:24:21.420 It's also used for other vaccines.

00:24:24.300 Use for other vaccines

00:24:26.320 and use for other therapies entirely,

00:24:28.480 including cancer therapies.

00:24:30.220 Right.

00:24:30.360 There are clinical trials now

00:24:31.520 trying to use these types of platforms,

00:24:34.800 mRNA platforms,

00:24:35.800 for very difficult-to-treat cancers,

00:24:38.060 including pancreatic cancer,

00:24:39.520 which we don't have great answers for.

00:24:42.840 You know,

00:24:43.420 I think I'm pretty practical on this.

00:24:46.360 I think where we are now in 2025

00:24:48.580 versus certainly

00:24:49.920 when these vaccines got approved,

00:24:51.860 we're in a different place,

00:24:53.540 meaning that

00:24:54.540 even though the uptake of vaccines

00:24:57.380 has gone way down,

00:24:58.860 most people did get

00:24:59.760 the initial series of vaccines.

00:25:02.080 And we know that they can,

00:25:04.360 especially for young people,

00:25:05.480 they can provide

00:25:06.120 more durable relief.

00:25:08.820 There hasn't, you know,

00:25:09.680 after the initial,

00:25:11.320 what they call ancestral strains

00:25:13.060 of COVID before Omicron,

00:25:15.280 I think these still provide

00:25:16.340 pretty good protection,

00:25:18.980 especially for young people

00:25:19.940 whose immune systems

00:25:20.780 really respond to them.

00:25:22.800 So I still think,

00:25:25.280 you know,

00:25:25.560 I said this before,

00:25:27.340 I think this was one of the great

00:25:29.040 scientific achievements

00:25:31.340 of my time

00:25:32.580 as a human being.

00:25:34.520 I think, you know,

00:25:35.320 when textbooks are written

00:25:36.300 about scientific achievements,

00:25:37.800 the idea

00:25:38.380 that they were able

00:25:39.660 to create a vaccine

00:25:40.560 essentially in nine months

00:25:41.960 and be able to,

00:25:43.880 you know,

00:25:44.220 protect so many people.

00:25:45.260 There's a lot of people

00:25:45.780 who think they don't work.

00:25:46.860 They do work.

00:25:47.820 I mean,

00:25:48.040 if you looked at the data,

00:25:49.180 California or the country

00:25:51.160 as a whole,

00:25:52.460 who was in the hospital

00:25:53.360 during the huge sort of

00:25:55.060 swings in COVID,

00:25:57.120 it was primarily people

00:25:58.180 who were not vaccinated.

00:25:59.600 So it was helping protect

00:26:00.840 against illness and death.

00:26:02.480 What I think was unfortunate,

00:26:04.340 frankly,

00:26:04.720 and this was a communications problem,

00:26:06.180 was that they seemed

00:26:08.220 to also intimate

00:26:09.280 that it would protect you

00:26:10.560 from getting COVID at all,

00:26:12.920 from carrying it.

00:26:14.240 And there was not

00:26:15.560 great evidence behind that.

00:26:17.160 And, you know,

00:26:17.820 we reported as such

00:26:19.660 that you don't have

00:26:21.720 great evidence

00:26:22.300 that shows that.

00:26:23.240 When you have a vaccine

00:26:24.280 that's protecting it

00:26:25.140 against illness,

00:26:25.820 it's usually protecting

00:26:26.860 in your lower respiratory,

00:26:29.040 in your lungs.

00:26:29.940 So you're not getting

00:26:30.720 that really,

00:26:31.460 really sort of deep illness.

00:26:33.760 But you might still have it

00:26:35.100 in your mucosa, 0.63

00:26:36.240 in your mouth, 0.74

00:26:37.320 in your nose,

00:26:37.920 in your upper airway.

00:26:38.880 So you could potentially

00:26:39.900 still be carrying it

00:26:40.760 and still potentially spread it.

00:26:42.640 That wasn't,

00:26:43.500 I think,

00:26:43.800 a communications error.

00:26:44.900 And I think,

00:26:45.940 frankly, Governor,

00:26:46.880 I think it led to

00:26:47.560 a lot of distrust

00:26:48.680 overall of these mRNA vaccines.

00:26:50.980 You said it,

00:26:51.620 you said I couldn't get COVID

00:26:52.880 if I got this.

00:26:53.840 Well, I got COVID

00:26:54.520 and I spread it.

00:26:55.760 So what is this?

00:26:56.740 Is this a vaccine

00:26:57.400 or is it not a vaccine?

00:26:58.960 That was a problem.

00:27:01.000 And do you,

00:27:01.380 I mean,

00:27:01.740 are we being

00:27:03.020 oversensitive,

00:27:05.840 hyperbolic

00:27:06.600 as it relates to

00:27:07.660 how now this is manifested

00:27:09.060 with the new recommendations

00:27:10.660 that for pregnant women

00:27:12.120 and for children,

00:27:13.360 they shouldn't even be

00:27:14.120 getting these boosters

00:27:14.900 on COVID?

00:27:15.600 Is that overstated

00:27:16.740 or is that

00:27:17.260 a more targeted approach?

00:27:18.880 Do you think it's rational?

00:27:20.800 We could talk about

00:27:21.760 how that was done

00:27:22.720 without the CDC

00:27:23.980 and advisory committee

00:27:25.740 that usually advises

00:27:27.300 in terms of recommendation.

00:27:29.460 But the outcome,

00:27:30.960 ultimately,

00:27:31.460 of that decision,

00:27:32.540 where are you on that?

00:27:34.360 Yeah,

00:27:34.580 I mean,

00:27:34.800 first of all,

00:27:35.240 you know,

00:27:35.420 with regard to the CDC

00:27:36.520 and expertise,

00:27:37.820 I mean,

00:27:38.280 you know,

00:27:38.840 it amazed me

00:27:39.720 when I watch people

00:27:40.640 like Tom Frieden

00:27:41.640 during Ebola

00:27:42.380 or Richard Besser

00:27:43.720 during H1N1

00:27:44.960 do their briefings

00:27:46.580 in front of the CDC

00:27:47.540 and they would say,

00:27:49.580 behind us,

00:27:50.660 we have 4,000

00:27:52.300 of the smartest,

00:27:53.720 most hardworking scientists

00:27:54.960 in the world.

00:27:56.480 They're so good

00:27:57.520 that other infectious disease

00:27:59.000 organizations

00:27:59.520 in other countries

00:28:00.200 model their organizations

00:28:01.840 after us,

00:28:02.600 even calling their organizations

00:28:03.820 the CDC.

00:28:06.000 I mean,

00:28:06.420 that was a source

00:28:08.120 of great pride,

00:28:09.100 I think,

00:28:09.940 for people

00:28:10.480 in the public health world,

00:28:11.380 myself included.

00:28:12.760 I think where I am now

00:28:14.320 at this point

00:28:15.720 in 2025

00:28:16.580 is,

00:28:18.200 first of all,

00:28:18.660 I think what

00:28:19.440 Secretary Kennedy

00:28:21.240 has said

00:28:22.020 versus what is reality

00:28:23.360 is different.

00:28:25.420 There's daylight

00:28:26.320 between those two things.

00:28:27.300 So he basically said

00:28:28.220 no more boosters

00:28:29.240 for kids,

00:28:31.200 basically,

00:28:31.700 no more shots.

00:28:33.340 Even now

00:28:34.040 on the CDC's website,

00:28:35.120 that's not what it says.

00:28:36.540 It says it should be

00:28:37.460 a shared clinical decision

00:28:39.220 between patient

00:28:40.840 and provider.

00:28:42.460 So for kids,

00:28:43.060 I think that makes sense.

00:28:44.660 I mean,

00:28:45.060 if your kid has asthma,

00:28:47.720 do you want to get

00:28:48.260 your kid a COVID shot?

00:28:49.980 How bad is the asthma?

00:28:51.500 How many times

00:28:52.060 do they require an inhaler?

00:28:53.560 Do they have diabetes?

00:28:54.820 Do they require insulin?

00:28:56.200 You know,

00:28:56.380 there's nuance

00:28:57.920 to that decision

00:28:58.960 and I think,

00:28:59.960 you know,

00:29:00.240 the general approach

00:29:01.440 has always been

00:29:02.120 instead of trying

00:29:03.480 to stratify all this

00:29:04.700 by risk,

00:29:05.500 which can be difficult

00:29:06.540 as a country to do.

00:29:07.980 Let's just recommend

00:29:08.620 the vaccine.

00:29:09.880 I think what they're saying

00:29:10.780 is let's do risk stratification

00:29:12.440 and let's put it

00:29:13.360 at the hands

00:29:13.840 of the providers,

00:29:14.880 of the doctors,

00:29:15.660 you know,

00:29:15.900 for these kids.

00:29:18.200 I think that makes sense.

00:29:19.680 You know,

00:29:20.020 if your kid

00:29:20.940 is otherwise healthy,

00:29:22.080 they've had their

00:29:22.780 primary series,

00:29:23.640 which most kids have had.

00:29:25.240 We haven't had

00:29:25.840 new variants

00:29:26.720 that are worrisome

00:29:27.640 for the time being.

00:29:29.480 I think that

00:29:30.000 that makes sense.

00:29:31.080 Pregnant women, 1.00

00:29:31.820 I would put into

00:29:32.380 a different category.

00:29:33.760 I mean,

00:29:35.020 the thing about pregnancy

00:29:36.040 is that when you're pregnant, 0.98

00:29:37.520 when someone is pregnant, 0.89

00:29:38.660 their immune system

00:29:40.220 is compromised

00:29:41.380 intentionally.

00:29:42.920 It's the way

00:29:43.280 the body works.

00:29:44.100 You don't want

00:29:44.420 to reject

00:29:45.160 this new body

00:29:46.120 inside your body,

00:29:47.460 inside a woman's body. 0.92

00:29:48.760 So the idea

00:29:49.700 that, you know,

00:29:51.200 you would be more vulnerable

00:29:52.140 to infections

00:29:53.020 while pregnant

00:29:53.740 is real.

00:29:55.340 In fact,

00:29:56.840 you know,

00:29:57.260 the FDA commissioner

00:29:58.140 wrote

00:29:58.640 before these new

00:29:59.860 recommendations came out,

00:30:00.820 he listed pregnancy

00:30:01.960 as a high-risk condition

00:30:03.780 for COVID.

00:30:05.200 And then a couple days later

00:30:06.180 said pregnant women

00:30:06.920 don't need it.

00:30:08.140 I mean,

00:30:08.400 if people's heads

00:30:08.980 were spinning,

00:30:09.840 I would understand why.

00:30:11.760 The second thing

00:30:12.440 about pregnant women

00:30:13.400 is that

00:30:14.120 if they get vaccinated,

00:30:16.400 they can actually

00:30:16.980 pass on some of the antibodies

00:30:18.480 to their child.

00:30:20.220 So for the first

00:30:20.860 six months of life,

00:30:21.860 that child may have protection.

00:30:23.960 And they're very,

00:30:25.020 young kids like that

00:30:26.020 are very,

00:30:26.640 very vulnerable to COVID.

00:30:27.920 Some of the rates

00:30:28.640 of severe illness,

00:30:30.200 they approximate

00:30:30.860 what older adults,

00:30:31.960 have.

00:30:32.480 So very young,

00:30:33.160 very old,

00:30:34.040 both can get very sick,

00:30:35.040 but young kids

00:30:36.360 under the age of six months

00:30:37.220 can't get a vaccine.

00:30:38.540 So mom can provide protection. 1.00

00:30:41.240 But now they're sort of

00:30:42.080 recommending against that as well.

00:30:44.580 I don't think it'll stick.

00:30:46.360 I think most infectious

00:30:47.340 disease doctors,

00:30:48.340 you know,

00:30:48.500 if you go to your doctor

00:30:49.320 as a pregnant woman

00:30:50.060 will say,

00:30:50.540 hey, look,

00:30:50.880 here's the benefits.

00:30:51.820 You're immune compromised

00:30:52.960 as a result of pregnancy

00:30:54.100 and you can help protect

00:30:55.400 your child

00:30:55.820 after they are born.

00:30:57.400 I think most people

00:30:58.160 will, you know,

00:30:59.320 at least pay attention to that.

00:31:01.960 Don't miss the

00:31:04.980 You Versus You podcast.

00:31:07.080 Join Lex Borrero

00:31:07.920 every week

00:31:08.560 as he sits down

00:31:09.240 with some of the biggest

00:31:10.040 names in entertainment

00:31:10.940 to talk about the real stuff,

00:31:13.240 the struggles,

00:31:14.220 the doubts,

00:31:14.800 and the breakthroughs

00:31:15.840 that made them

00:31:16.360 who they are.

00:31:17.980 They go deep,

00:31:19.460 covering childhood trauma,

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00:31:23.100 and the moments

00:31:23.780 that shape their journey.

00:31:25.440 These honest conversations

00:31:26.780 are meant to take

00:31:27.480 the cape off our heroes

00:31:28.700 with the hope

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00:31:31.440 to become a better you

00:31:32.540 and therefore

00:31:33.620 set you free

00:31:34.400 to live the life

00:31:35.080 of your dreams.

00:31:36.380 Here's a sneak peek.

00:31:38.120 I'm trained to go compete.

00:31:39.420 I'm trained to be,

00:31:40.160 like, harder.

00:31:40.980 But sometimes that mentality

00:31:42.400 stops you from stopping

00:31:43.820 and smelling the flowers

00:31:44.980 in your own garden.

00:31:45.980 Is it wrong to want more?

00:31:47.560 We migrated.

00:31:48.480 Our family migrated here.

00:31:49.760 I'm like second generation.

00:31:51.240 Listen to You Versus You

00:31:52.540 as part of

00:31:53.140 My Cultura Podcast Network.

00:31:55.440 Available on the

00:31:56.160 iHeartRadio app,

00:31:57.420 Apple Podcasts,

00:31:58.500 or wherever you get

00:31:59.200 your podcasts.

00:32:03.920 American history

00:32:04.900 is full

00:32:06.440 of wise people.

00:32:08.480 What woman said 0.98

00:32:09.160 something like,

00:32:09.800 you know,

00:32:09.960 99.99% of war

00:32:11.660 is diarrhea

00:32:12.380 and 1% is glory.

00:32:14.800 Those founding fathers

00:32:15.940 were gossipy AF

00:32:18.800 and they loved

00:32:19.540 to cut each other down.

00:32:20.920 I'm Bob Crawford,

00:32:22.180 host of

00:32:22.760 American History Hotline,

00:32:24.280 the show where you

00:32:25.320 send us your questions

00:32:26.160 about American history

00:32:27.480 and I find the answers,

00:32:29.780 including the nuggets

00:32:30.900 of wisdom

00:32:31.560 our history has to offer.

00:32:33.660 Hamilton pauses

00:32:34.520 and then he says,

00:32:35.820 the greatest man

00:32:36.600 that ever lived

00:32:37.180 was Julius Caesar.

00:32:38.900 And Jefferson writes

00:32:40.160 in his diary,

00:32:41.220 this proves that

00:32:41.940 Hamilton is for

00:32:43.100 a dictator

00:32:44.200 based on corruption.

00:32:45.860 My favorite line

00:32:46.880 was what

00:32:47.260 Neil Armstrong said,

00:32:48.620 it would have been

00:32:49.460 harder to fake it

00:32:50.620 than to do it.

00:32:52.000 Listen to

00:32:52.500 American History Hotline

00:32:53.640 on the iHeartRadio app,

00:32:55.540 Apple Podcasts,

00:32:56.780 or wherever

00:32:57.440 you get your podcasts.

00:32:59.100 Just like great shoes,

00:33:04.840 great books

00:33:05.520 take you places

00:33:06.440 through unforgettable

00:33:07.560 love stories

00:33:08.420 and into conversations

00:33:09.680 with characters

00:33:10.500 you'll never forget.

00:33:12.000 I think any good romance,

00:33:13.600 it gives me this feeling

00:33:15.000 of like butterflies.

00:33:16.560 I'm Danielle Robay

00:33:17.520 and this is Bookmarked

00:33:18.720 by Reese's Book Club,

00:33:20.040 the new podcast

00:33:20.680 from Hello Sunshine

00:33:21.720 and iHeart Podcasts.

00:33:23.400 Every week,

00:33:24.140 I sit down with

00:33:24.820 your favorite book lovers,

00:33:26.440 authors,

00:33:27.040 celebrities,

00:33:27.700 book talkers,

00:33:28.340 and more

00:33:28.840 to explore the stories

00:33:30.120 that shape us

00:33:30.960 on the page

00:33:31.800 and off.

00:33:32.960 I've been reading

00:33:33.660 every Reese's Book Club

00:33:34.980 pick,

00:33:35.540 deep diving book talk

00:33:36.580 theories,

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00:33:38.980 casts for years.

00:33:40.160 And now,

00:33:40.800 I get to talk to

00:33:41.620 the people

00:33:42.040 making the magic.

00:33:43.440 So if you've ever

00:33:44.100 fallen in love

00:33:44.880 with a fictional character

00:33:46.000 or cried at

00:33:47.220 the last chapter

00:33:47.980 or passed a book

00:33:49.080 to a friend saying

00:33:49.980 you have to read this,

00:33:51.880 this podcast

00:33:52.540 is for you.

00:33:54.500 Listen to

00:33:54.900 Bookmarked

00:33:55.400 by Reese's Book Club

00:33:56.380 on the iHeartRadio app,

00:33:58.240 Apple Podcasts,

00:33:59.140 or wherever you

00:33:59.860 get your podcasts.

00:34:03.140 This week on

00:34:04.100 Dear Chelsea

00:34:04.640 with me,

00:34:05.320 Chelsea Handler.

00:34:06.500 Sophia Bush is here.

00:34:08.300 Tell me how that feels

00:34:09.240 to be a hot 0.97

00:34:09.820 considered a hot lesbian. 1.00

00:34:11.560 Quite an honor. 0.97

00:34:12.620 You know what's funny

00:34:13.400 is you do this weird math

00:34:15.900 like if you're a woman

00:34:16.760 dating men,

00:34:17.940 nobody wants to talk

00:34:18.920 to you about your sexuality.

00:34:20.060 They just want to either say 0.98

00:34:21.220 like you're a prude 1.00

00:34:22.160 or a slut. 1.00

00:34:23.060 You know, 1.00

00:34:23.800 if you date too much,

00:34:24.760 they criticize you

00:34:25.680 if you don't date,

00:34:26.440 you must be frigid,

00:34:27.280 whatever.

00:34:28.000 And then the thing

00:34:29.060 that gets added

00:34:29.880 when you're actually

00:34:30.640 more fluid

00:34:31.300 with your sexuality

00:34:32.360 is the swing goes to

00:34:34.800 you better identify

00:34:35.980 exactly who you are

00:34:37.020 so we can figure out

00:34:37.880 what name to call you

00:34:38.860 and it's like,

00:34:40.160 okay.

00:34:41.220 And you know,

00:34:42.040 I sort of looked around

00:34:43.020 and was like,

00:34:43.340 has nobody been paying attention

00:34:44.340 to like all the hot girls

00:34:45.260 I've been kissing on camera?

00:34:47.240 You know,

00:34:47.580 maybe not in front of you

00:34:48.520 off camera,

00:34:49.200 but hi,

00:34:50.360 I've always been here.

00:34:51.140 Listen to Dear Chelsea

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00:34:58.660 What happens

00:34:59.600 when we come face to face

00:35:01.020 with death?

00:35:02.080 My truck was blown up

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00:35:10.100 I just remember

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00:35:13.600 I'm dying.

00:35:15.060 When we step beyond

00:35:16.120 the edge of what we know,

00:35:17.420 to open our consciousness

00:35:19.040 to something more than

00:35:20.600 just what's in that

00:35:21.420 Western box.

00:35:22.320 And we turn.

00:35:23.660 I clinically died.

00:35:25.260 The heart stopped beating.

00:35:26.240 Which I was dead

00:35:27.160 for 11.5 minutes.

00:35:28.660 My name is Dan Bush.

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00:36:01.480 As it code red,

00:36:03.420 what's happening

00:36:03.980 with vaccines generally,

00:36:05.440 the sort of growing

00:36:07.120 anxiety around vaccines.

00:36:08.280 I was listening

00:36:08.740 to your podcast recently

00:36:10.240 just about,

00:36:10.980 you know,

00:36:11.440 people expressing concern.

00:36:13.000 They're getting so many shots.

00:36:14.120 A young child,

00:36:15.260 newborn,

00:36:15.840 and all of a sudden

00:36:16.320 they're getting four or five shots

00:36:17.520 20 years ago.

00:36:18.720 They may have gotten less shots,

00:36:19.900 but you described

00:36:20.940 a very different construct

00:36:22.500 as it relates to antigens

00:36:23.840 and proteins

00:36:24.800 and dose,

00:36:26.100 which was fascinating to me

00:36:27.960 and obviously calmed,

00:36:30.020 I think,

00:36:30.220 the nerves

00:36:30.560 of those who were inquiring.

00:36:32.220 But talk to me

00:36:33.080 more broadly

00:36:33.640 about the state of vaccines,

00:36:35.280 your anxiety,

00:36:36.600 and push back

00:36:38.180 against some of

00:36:39.500 this vaccine skepticism

00:36:41.120 that's out there.

00:36:41.740 Well,

00:36:42.720 with regard to the,

00:36:44.440 you know,

00:36:44.840 you hear these crazy numbers,

00:36:46.500 you know,

00:36:46.660 72 vaccines

00:36:48.000 and all that.

00:36:49.220 First of all,

00:36:49.580 those are just made up numbers.

00:36:51.920 It's weird to me,

00:36:53.060 Governor.

00:36:53.280 There's no accountability

00:36:54.040 for people saying stuff

00:36:55.500 that's just absolutely not true.

00:36:57.700 I hope people,

00:36:58.520 you know,

00:36:59.380 they always say,

00:37:00.140 do your own research.

00:37:00.920 I hope people do

00:37:01.740 their own research

00:37:02.560 with regard to some of this.

00:37:04.360 So yeah,

00:37:04.720 we vaccinate against

00:37:05.560 more diseases

00:37:06.200 than we used to

00:37:07.160 when you and I were kids.

00:37:08.320 We're around the same age.

00:37:09.080 But what you're referring to

00:37:13.280 is the something

00:37:13.860 known as the antigenic load,

00:37:15.780 which is really what,

00:37:17.020 you know,

00:37:17.520 scientists pay attention to.

00:37:18.760 How much of a,

00:37:19.760 of a sort of load

00:37:20.900 of antigens

00:37:21.580 are we giving to the body?

00:37:23.180 And what you find

00:37:24.300 is that nowadays

00:37:25.740 compared to days

00:37:26.800 when we were still vaccinating

00:37:28.140 against things

00:37:28.660 like smallpox,

00:37:29.480 for example,

00:37:30.640 the load is much,

00:37:32.240 much lower,

00:37:32.900 exponentially lower

00:37:34.120 than we used to give.

00:37:35.640 Even though there's

00:37:36.120 more vaccines,

00:37:37.540 vaccine technology

00:37:38.440 has gotten better.

00:37:39.660 They,

00:37:39.820 they use adjuvants

00:37:40.820 to,

00:37:41.440 so you don't have to give

00:37:42.160 as much of the overall,

00:37:43.580 whether it be live virus

00:37:44.900 or anything else

00:37:45.620 as we used to.

00:37:47.180 So we don't

00:37:48.660 sort of

00:37:50.100 cause the immune system

00:37:51.340 to react

00:37:52.100 nearly as much today

00:37:53.540 as we used to

00:37:54.540 in the past

00:37:55.660 because of that

00:37:56.520 antigenic load.

00:37:57.720 So,

00:37:58.360 you know,

00:37:58.660 numbers of,

00:37:59.680 of shots

00:38:00.400 and all that.

00:38:01.420 Look,

00:38:01.920 again,

00:38:02.160 as a dad,

00:38:02.860 I don't like seeing

00:38:03.580 my kids get shots.

00:38:04.560 I get that.

00:38:05.880 I understand that.

00:38:06.860 But in terms of

00:38:08.560 what it's actually

00:38:09.180 doing to the body

00:38:10.360 compared to what

00:38:11.800 we used to do

00:38:12.360 to the body

00:38:12.920 at a time when,

00:38:14.420 by the way,

00:38:14.740 autism was,

00:38:15.780 was a much lower rate.

00:38:17.320 So we used to give

00:38:18.140 a much bigger

00:38:18.660 antigenic load

00:38:19.500 and lower autism rates.

00:38:21.020 Now we have a much

00:38:21.820 lower antigenic load

00:38:22.960 and we have higher

00:38:23.840 autism rates.

00:38:25.320 Make of that

00:38:26.120 what you may.

00:38:27.320 Those are,

00:38:28.000 that's the data.

00:38:28.620 That's the facts.

00:38:29.660 And,

00:38:30.160 and so I,

00:38:31.020 I,

00:38:31.640 I don't know

00:38:33.120 that I would call it

00:38:33.760 code red,

00:38:34.400 but I think

00:38:35.740 that this,

00:38:36.360 this,

00:38:36.680 the,

00:38:37.800 the argument

00:38:38.500 against,

00:38:39.300 I think,

00:38:39.600 what is a very,

00:38:40.400 very effective

00:38:40.920 preventative strategy

00:38:42.260 gaining a lot

00:38:43.420 of steam.

00:38:44.080 And I think

00:38:44.500 people are becoming

00:38:45.200 increasingly,

00:38:46.060 increasingly

00:38:46.920 concerned about vaccines

00:38:49.080 and hesitant.

00:38:49.840 What did you make?

00:38:50.440 I mean,

00:38:50.620 you were out there

00:38:51.300 in Texas,

00:38:52.040 this measles outbreak.

00:38:53.040 I mean,

00:38:54.220 and,

00:38:54.560 you know,

00:38:54.800 you had folks

00:38:55.320 arguing for more

00:38:56.340 and look,

00:38:57.220 I'm not belittling it,

00:38:58.400 but it was interesting

00:38:59.320 to me.

00:38:59.840 Cod liver,

00:39:01.020 vitamin A

00:39:01.960 is the solution,

00:39:02.840 not vaccines.

00:39:03.620 I was reading

00:39:05.360 in different sources

00:39:06.520 that,

00:39:07.180 you know,

00:39:07.440 a double digit

00:39:08.600 percentage of people

00:39:09.520 that,

00:39:10.000 you know,

00:39:10.900 had measles

00:39:11.980 ended up in the

00:39:12.680 emergency rooms

00:39:13.620 and people are still

00:39:14.840 arguing for

00:39:15.920 heavy loads

00:39:16.780 of vitamin A.

00:39:18.520 I mean,

00:39:18.800 give me a sense of,

00:39:20.440 you know,

00:39:20.640 on the ground

00:39:21.600 truth seeking

00:39:22.760 that you did

00:39:23.540 and,

00:39:24.220 you know,

00:39:24.500 how does that play in

00:39:25.740 sort of a modern

00:39:26.680 flashpoint

00:39:27.380 with this ideological

00:39:28.480 movement

00:39:29.100 and the practical

00:39:30.040 realities on the ground?

00:39:31.420 I think for the

00:39:32.560 physicians

00:39:33.900 and nurses 0.99

00:39:34.540 and everybody

00:39:34.980 who's caring

00:39:35.400 for patients there,

00:39:36.120 it was incredibly

00:39:36.840 frustrating for them.

00:39:39.560 I mean,

00:39:39.740 you're talking about

00:39:40.320 a vaccine-preventable

00:39:41.120 disease.

00:39:42.000 We essentially

00:39:42.500 eliminated measles

00:39:43.400 in this country.

00:39:46.060 I think when we

00:39:46.960 say frustrating,

00:39:47.940 it's like,

00:39:48.400 how are we going

00:39:48.920 to make big swings

00:39:50.140 at big important

00:39:51.140 things evolutionarily

00:39:52.300 in science

00:39:52.920 if we can't get

00:39:53.560 the little things

00:39:54.120 right?

00:39:55.320 It's dying

00:39:56.100 of measles,

00:39:57.000 kids even getting

00:39:57.500 sick of measles,

00:39:58.300 being hospitalized

00:39:58.820 with measles.

00:39:59.380 It doesn't need

00:40:00.560 to happen.

00:40:01.240 It's a travesty.

00:40:02.220 You know,

00:40:02.360 and I think most

00:40:02.960 of the people,

00:40:03.580 frankly,

00:40:03.840 that we spoke to

00:40:04.600 and not just people

00:40:05.900 in the medical

00:40:06.280 community,

00:40:06.700 but we spent a lot

00:40:07.480 of time talking

00:40:08.200 to citizens,

00:40:09.320 just going around,

00:40:10.360 taking the temperature.

00:40:11.820 I think there was

00:40:12.220 a lot of frustration,

00:40:13.660 but at the same time,

00:40:14.600 they're being assaulted

00:40:15.300 with all sorts of

00:40:16.520 information that is

00:40:17.920 not accurate.

00:40:19.080 You know,

00:40:19.540 this seemed to have

00:40:22.040 started in a small

00:40:23.280 community,

00:40:24.360 a Mennonite community.

00:40:25.680 And it's really

00:40:26.420 interesting.

00:40:26.800 There's nothing

00:40:27.180 in the religious

00:40:27.720 doctrine that says

00:40:29.200 they shouldn't take

00:40:29.920 measles vaccine.

00:40:31.380 What happens,

00:40:32.400 as we learned,

00:40:33.180 as you may know,

00:40:34.120 Governor,

00:40:34.560 is that these

00:40:35.180 very insular

00:40:35.920 communities,

00:40:36.700 they don't get

00:40:37.500 a lot of outside

00:40:38.160 information often.

00:40:39.720 So they may have

00:40:40.860 somebody in the

00:40:41.400 community whose

00:40:42.240 child developed

00:40:43.380 a febrile seizure

00:40:44.280 or something.

00:40:45.380 I think that's

00:40:45.800 what happened here

00:40:46.460 after a vaccine.

00:40:48.020 That can happen.

00:40:49.580 And right away,

00:40:50.920 that spread like,

00:40:52.120 you know,

00:40:52.640 wildfire through

00:40:53.360 that community,

00:40:53.900 and all of a sudden

00:40:54.380 nobody wanted to

00:40:55.040 get vaccinated.

00:40:55.600 When you're dealing

00:40:56.900 with something as

00:40:57.500 contagious as measles,

00:40:58.600 then that community

00:40:59.640 as they're walking

00:41:00.960 through the town

00:41:02.000 of Gaines or

00:41:03.200 wherever,

00:41:03.860 you know,

00:41:04.640 the Costco or

00:41:05.540 the fast food

00:41:06.240 restaurant,

00:41:06.560 whatever it may be,

00:41:08.080 you can start to

00:41:08.960 spread the virus.

00:41:10.980 So that's what was

00:41:12.080 happening there.

00:41:13.120 I will say to

00:41:14.160 RFK's credit,

00:41:16.100 he did go there

00:41:17.180 and he was

00:41:18.280 conciliatory towards

00:41:19.300 vaccines.

00:41:20.340 He did,

00:41:21.080 he did at least

00:41:21.840 in the moment,

00:41:22.740 recommend the

00:41:24.080 measles vaccine

00:41:24.840 to people,

00:41:25.400 which I thought

00:41:26.200 was really

00:41:26.580 important and

00:41:27.260 really,

00:41:27.680 really good.

00:41:28.960 I think since

00:41:29.760 then he's sort

00:41:30.300 of backtracked

00:41:31.680 on that.

00:41:33.100 Obviously with COVID,

00:41:34.160 I think COVID

00:41:34.760 seems to be

00:41:35.440 sort of low-hanging

00:41:36.160 fruit because

00:41:36.880 the uptake

00:41:37.360 has been so

00:41:37.920 low already

00:41:38.540 that the idea

00:41:40.040 of saying

00:41:40.340 we're not

00:41:40.620 recommending it

00:41:41.260 anymore was

00:41:41.820 sort of,

00:41:42.320 I think,

00:41:42.620 easy.

00:41:43.460 But I think

00:41:43.760 with regard

00:41:44.220 to MMR

00:41:44.920 and other

00:41:45.320 things,

00:41:47.280 they're

00:41:48.060 critically

00:41:48.440 important.

00:41:49.980 And,

00:41:50.280 you know,

00:41:50.760 I think the,

00:41:51.740 hopefully that

00:41:52.280 message continues

00:41:53.220 to get out there.

00:41:53.760 I think it's

00:41:54.180 changing even

00:41:55.360 in West Texas.

00:41:56.500 I think that,

00:41:57.020 you know,

00:41:57.220 you did see

00:41:57.740 increased measles

00:41:58.380 uptake.

00:41:58.880 We were at

00:41:59.140 clinics,

00:42:00.120 pop-up clinics,

00:42:00.740 and people were

00:42:01.380 showing up to

00:42:01.960 get measles

00:42:02.340 vaccine that

00:42:02.940 had never

00:42:03.220 been vaccinated

00:42:03.780 in their

00:42:04.160 lives.

00:42:05.060 So,

00:42:05.540 you know,

00:42:05.820 I think in

00:42:06.200 the throes

00:42:06.660 of something

00:42:07.060 like that,

00:42:07.820 you do see

00:42:08.700 behavior changing

00:42:09.900 a bit.

00:42:11.020 It's encouraging.

00:42:12.320 In the behavior,

00:42:14.280 and I appreciate

00:42:15.540 your reverence,

00:42:16.400 R.F.K.,

00:42:16.900 but it just

00:42:18.020 depends on the

00:42:18.600 day of the

00:42:18.920 week.

00:42:19.160 I mean,

00:42:19.940 he says that

00:42:20.980 when he's there

00:42:21.800 on the ground,

00:42:22.320 and then he gets

00:42:22.860 into a cabinet

00:42:23.960 meeting and says,

00:42:24.720 well,

00:42:24.800 we have outbreaks

00:42:25.420 all the time,

00:42:26.240 and,

00:42:26.780 you know,

00:42:26.960 even though this

00:42:27.480 disease was

00:42:28.040 substantially,

00:42:29.160 you know,

00:42:29.820 what,

00:42:30.240 2000,

00:42:30.900 it was declared

00:42:31.500 gone,

00:42:32.020 right?

00:42:32.500 Correct.

00:42:32.920 It was declared

00:42:33.640 eliminated at

00:42:34.660 that point.

00:42:35.640 And there have

00:42:36.120 been some measles

00:42:36.660 outbreaks since

00:42:37.620 then.

00:42:38.020 I mean,

00:42:38.240 there was one

00:42:38.780 in 2019,

00:42:39.840 I think it

00:42:40.380 affected Disneyland

00:42:41.260 in California

00:42:42.580 as well,

00:42:43.360 Minnesota,

00:42:44.460 Brooklyn.

00:42:44.760 So there have

00:42:45.800 been measles

00:42:46.300 outbreaks,

00:42:46.860 but,

00:42:47.080 you know,

00:42:47.300 this vaccine

00:42:49.500 hesitancy issue

00:42:51.020 has been around

00:42:51.960 for a while.

00:42:53.340 You know,

00:42:53.440 I've been a

00:42:53.700 reporter for 25

00:42:54.440 years now almost,

00:42:55.620 and I'll tell you

00:42:56.700 what's interesting

00:42:57.380 to me,

00:42:57.820 and I'm curious

00:42:58.380 if this is

00:42:58.780 interesting to

00:42:59.300 you,

00:42:59.560 but if 10

00:43:00.440 years ago,

00:43:00.880 if you said

00:43:01.240 who is the

00:43:01.960 most likely

00:43:02.680 person in

00:43:03.920 America to

00:43:05.020 be vaccine

00:43:05.640 hesitant,

00:43:06.620 describe that

00:43:07.140 person.

00:43:08.040 And I think

00:43:08.660 what you would

00:43:09.040 likely have

00:43:09.560 described at

00:43:10.100 that point

00:43:10.500 was a young

00:43:11.300 person,

00:43:12.380 liberal,

00:43:13.200 and woman, 1.00

00:43:13.900 usually a

00:43:14.320 That's right.

00:43:15.140 Oh yeah,

00:43:15.520 trust me,

00:43:16.020 I grew up

00:43:17.720 in the Bay

00:43:18.140 Area,

00:43:18.600 so you can

00:43:19.040 appreciate it,

00:43:19.620 in California,

00:43:20.300 I know a lot

00:43:20.660 of them.

00:43:21.360 Yeah.

00:43:22.240 Perfectly

00:43:22.640 described.

00:43:24.140 And now in

00:43:25.140 2025,

00:43:26.180 I think the

00:43:26.580 demographics have

00:43:27.420 changed in

00:43:28.020 terms of who's

00:43:28.540 most likely to

00:43:29.280 be vaccine

00:43:29.920 hesitant or

00:43:30.740 resistant.

00:43:32.040 Older,

00:43:33.140 white,

00:43:33.840 conservative

00:43:34.200 men.

00:43:35.540 And I,

00:43:36.200 you know,

00:43:36.960 I'm not a

00:43:37.560 politician,

00:43:38.160 but I'll

00:43:38.740 tell you,

00:43:39.120 I think that

00:43:39.740 these issues

00:43:41.400 are used as

00:43:42.040 proxy issues

00:43:42.800 for a larger

00:43:43.440 sort of

00:43:44.200 conflict.

00:43:45.880 I don't,

00:43:46.140 you know,

00:43:46.600 vaccines are

00:43:47.540 the issue,

00:43:48.320 I think people

00:43:48.880 glom onto,

00:43:49.820 it's understandable,

00:43:50.860 they can sink

00:43:51.280 their teeth into

00:43:51.980 it and all

00:43:52.820 that,

00:43:53.200 but within

00:43:54.060 10 years,

00:43:54.860 even less

00:43:55.340 than that,

00:43:55.720 frankly,

00:43:55.980 I think it

00:43:56.220 was 2019,

00:43:57.320 maybe six

00:43:57.800 years ago,

00:43:58.820 you would have

00:43:59.120 said young

00:43:59.460 liberal woman 0.95

00:43:59.960 and now

00:44:00.400 older conservative

00:44:01.220 man.

00:44:01.840 I think within

00:44:02.680 six years,

00:44:03.340 it's completely

00:44:04.120 flipped.

00:44:05.060 And I think

00:44:05.340 there's other

00:44:05.820 proxy issues

00:44:06.660 like that as

00:44:07.140 well.

00:44:07.340 And I think

00:44:07.620 it just sends

00:44:08.040 a signal

00:44:08.440 that these

00:44:09.120 are,

00:44:09.820 you can't

00:44:10.420 disentangle

00:44:11.020 anything from

00:44:11.580 politics.

00:44:12.780 I never

00:44:13.260 thought of

00:44:13.700 vaccine hesitancy

00:44:14.760 as a political

00:44:15.400 issue.

00:44:15.780 I thought it

00:44:16.220 was concerned

00:44:16.700 moms.

00:44:17.760 My wife would 0.98

00:44:18.620 have conversations,

00:44:19.460 should we get

00:44:19.740 all the vaccines

00:44:20.280 at once or

00:44:20.900 should we spread

00:44:21.360 them out a little

00:44:21.840 bit?

00:44:22.040 And I would

00:44:22.300 sit down and

00:44:22.760 talk to her

00:44:23.160 about antigenic

00:44:23.860 load and all

00:44:24.500 that.

00:44:25.920 And I think

00:44:26.320 she definitely 0.92

00:44:27.160 listened to me,

00:44:27.940 but it required

00:44:28.660 a conversation.

00:44:30.060 So I got that.

00:44:31.860 Now it's all

00:44:33.460 politics, it seems,

00:44:34.500 and that's very

00:44:35.400 difficult to sort

00:44:36.280 of confront.

00:44:36.720 No, and I

00:44:37.660 mean, I think it

00:44:38.080 goes to our

00:44:38.540 opening conversation

00:44:39.400 as well.

00:44:40.080 I mean, that was

00:44:40.760 certainly the case

00:44:41.760 with Michelle

00:44:42.300 Obama.

00:44:43.100 I mean, she

00:44:43.520 was just ridiculed

00:44:45.120 and attacked for

00:44:47.040 focusing on healthy

00:44:48.320 foods and focusing

00:44:50.140 on our kids and

00:44:51.720 chronic disease and

00:44:52.920 issues around

00:44:54.080 obesity.

00:44:54.980 And that's why I

00:44:56.040 think it's important

00:44:56.640 for those that

00:44:58.780 may be critical of

00:45:00.640 the MAGA

00:45:01.360 movement to be

00:45:02.840 at least sensitive

00:45:03.920 to the attributes

00:45:05.640 and the positive

00:45:06.600 components of the

00:45:08.180 MAGA frame that

00:45:10.040 is focusing on

00:45:11.360 the same issue

00:45:12.400 coming up from

00:45:13.000 different political

00:45:13.780 lens, certainly,

00:45:15.220 and not get, you

00:45:16.740 know, sort of

00:45:17.240 caught up in this

00:45:18.120 vaccine issue when

00:45:19.420 we focus on the

00:45:20.200 fundamental issues

00:45:20.940 of wellness, which

00:45:21.980 I think we just as

00:45:23.120 a country need to

00:45:24.040 come to grips with.

00:45:25.300 I think that's the

00:45:26.280 challenge.

00:45:26.520 People like to look

00:45:27.080 at these in binary

00:45:27.820 ways.

00:45:28.660 MAGA bad, MAGA

00:45:29.620 good.

00:45:30.440 There's goods and

00:45:31.040 bads to it.

00:45:31.560 You know, I think

00:45:31.940 there's a lot of

00:45:32.440 stuff that as a

00:45:33.900 health, very

00:45:34.560 health conscious

00:45:35.160 person,

00:45:35.640 myself, someone

00:45:36.480 who thinks a lot

00:45:37.160 about longevity.

00:45:38.080 I got parents in

00:45:38.860 80s.

00:45:39.520 I got teenage

00:45:40.220 kids.

00:45:40.660 I think about

00:45:41.080 this all the

00:45:41.540 time.

00:45:42.320 There's a lot

00:45:42.740 of things that

00:45:43.320 the MAGA

00:45:44.200 movement says

00:45:44.840 that I totally

00:45:45.540 agree with.

00:45:46.420 And again, things

00:45:47.120 that you have

00:45:48.260 been doing in

00:45:48.740 California with

00:45:49.440 regard to our

00:45:50.060 foods.

00:45:51.180 I think 70% of

00:45:52.940 illness, chronic

00:45:53.760 disease in this

00:45:54.320 country is

00:45:54.720 preventable.

00:45:56.080 And again, we

00:45:57.100 spend four and a

00:45:57.660 half trillion

00:45:58.120 dollars on it.

00:45:59.120 So preventing

00:45:59.900 70%, I mean,

00:46:02.400 medically, obviously

00:46:03.420 important, but also

00:46:05.180 morally and

00:46:05.880 financially and

00:46:06.540 everything else, the

00:46:07.800 vast majority of

00:46:09.440 those preventable

00:46:10.200 disease, I think,

00:46:10.880 comes in how we

00:46:11.580 nourish ourselves, our

00:46:12.460 food supply.

00:46:13.560 So I totally

00:46:14.980 understand that.

00:46:16.080 Again, I wish it

00:46:16.880 didn't have to be

00:46:17.660 done in a mean

00:46:19.540 spirited way.

00:46:20.740 You know, it's just

00:46:21.640 not my personality to

00:46:22.860 be vitriolic to get

00:46:23.940 things done.

00:46:25.020 But on the other

00:46:25.620 hand, I think people

00:46:26.960 have been talking

00:46:27.520 about trying to

00:46:28.140 reform our food

00:46:28.880 supply for a

00:46:29.760 quarter century and

00:46:30.400 it hasn't really

00:46:31.040 been done.

00:46:31.540 maybe this will

00:46:34.340 it's already

00:46:35.100 leading to some

00:46:35.680 changes with

00:46:36.420 regard to food

00:46:37.040 dyes and things

00:46:37.680 like that.

00:46:38.060 We'll see where

00:46:38.440 that all lands.

00:46:39.800 So I think some

00:46:40.400 of it is really

00:46:41.300 important, but

00:46:42.120 there's other

00:46:42.840 parts of it that

00:46:43.620 I think, and

00:46:44.640 vaccines, I guess,

00:46:45.400 would be the best

00:46:45.860 example where I

00:46:47.100 have real concerns.

00:46:49.220 Tune in for more

00:46:50.100 with Dr. Sanjay

00:46:51.200 Buktu.

00:46:54.720 This is an

00:46:55.360 iHeart Podcast.

00:46:56.240 This is an

00:47:10.040 iHeart Podcast.

00:47:10.140 This has

00:47:10.940 been a

00:47:13.240 iHeart Podcast.

00:47:14.980 This

00:47:16.040 has been

00:47:18.300 a

00:47:19.400 anybody

00:47:19.860 has

00:47:19.960 that

00:47:21.080 want

00:47:22.080 a

This is Gavin Newsom - July 04, 2025

And, This Is Dr. Sanjay Gupta

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