This is Gavin Newsom - And, This Is Former MAGA Influencer Ashley St. Clair

00:00:00.240 I think I'm most disappointed in Elon. 0.98

00:00:02.700 I think divorce is an option when your spouse wants to kill you.

00:00:05.820 Yeah, I was offered $40 million, which included an NDA and non-discouragement into eternity, which I declined.

00:00:12.300 So if you've ever wondered about the inner workings of the MAGA movement,

00:00:16.640 what actually happens on the group chats?

00:00:19.360 Who's on the group chats?

00:00:21.180 How coordinated is the MAGA movement coming out of the White House

00:00:24.980 and the political operation to influencers, to right-wing media?

00:00:29.320 Well, I've got the perfect guest for you, Ashley St. Clair.

00:00:34.180 She spent close to a decade in this movement,

00:00:37.320 and now she is speaking out against the thing that she worked so hard to advance.

00:00:44.960 This is Gavin Newsom.

00:00:47.900 And this is Ashley St. Clair.

00:00:52.560 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:55.460 Guaranteed human.

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00:01:12.660 Number one hits, millions of records sold, awards, sold out tours.

00:01:16.380 You think the Jonas Brothers are satisfied?

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00:01:27.660 You know, Steve Carell is a great singer.

00:01:29.800 Can you tell you not to audition for The Office or something?

00:01:31.900 I told him.

00:01:32.660 Whoa.

00:01:33.080 We were filming Anchorman. 1.00

00:01:34.520 Clearly, I was the idiot. 1.00

00:01:35.940 Thank God he didn't listen to me, right? 0.99

00:01:38.080 Listen to Hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:43.500 Last night, a blown call changed the game.

00:01:46.200 This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

00:01:51.400 That's where Sports Slice comes in.

00:01:52.800 I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports, and giving you the real story behind the headlines.

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00:02:17.880 here's something that should not be as complicated as it is getting a racist statue removed and

00:02:24.440 here's something that should be a whole lot easier than it is getting a new one put up in its place

00:02:29.040 i'm akilah hughes and rebel spirit season two is about both of those things as i was watching these

00:02:34.680 statues come down i was thinking about what it meant that i grew up in a majority black city

00:02:38.140 in which there were more homages to enslavers than there were to enslave people listen to rebel

00:02:42.660 Spirit Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:02:48.760 Thanks for having me, Governor.

00:02:50.220 So, Ashley, it's so interesting, just a lot of clips out there about you, a lot of energy,

00:02:55.260 a lot of, you know, a lot of conversations. And it's, you know, I think a lot of, you know,

00:03:02.780 feigning praise, not criticism necessarily, but you're playing to an audience, right? You're

00:03:08.720 sort of emerging out of this MAGA sort of, you know, influence space, this surround sound that

00:03:17.380 a lot of us are on the receiving end of, including myself. So I have some intimate appreciation

00:03:22.980 for what they produce, but I have little knowledge for how they produce it. And so I'm fascinated

00:03:30.620 by this opportunity. I'm very grateful for you to be willing to share just your insights without,

00:03:36.000 And I'm not looking to tear anybody down, but just to understand the ecosystem that you came out of and why you're coming out of that ecosystem and what all of this represents to you.

00:03:49.000 So maybe the best way to start is really for you to introduce yourself in the context of this journey to our audience.

00:03:55.660 I have to preface this, too, by saying apologies because I am almost positive I have probably cyberbullied you in my MAGA days.

00:04:03.100 Because it's like a prerequisite to being in MAGA, because you're a very popular figure for us to cyber bully. But I got my start very young as soon as I when I started college, right before I started college, there was a Trump rally on my campus. So I was immediately going to that and seeing this energy around it. And then I joined college, I had a bit more of a cerebral side because I was homeschooled in high school.

00:04:27.460 So I enjoyed the more political aspects of the Young Americans for Liberty groups that were built on free speech and personal liberties, and then very quickly got involved in the turning point apparatus and tweeting into the ether about these conservatisms, these MAGA-isms, and it just snowballed from there.

00:04:46.500 all of a sudden I'm invited to as a special guest to my first turning point event I have Charlie

00:04:51.460 Kirk saying you know you're doing a good job and I'm getting praise from Don Jr and as like a very

00:04:57.660 broken insecure girl who was looking for some sort of belonging who didn't have that in high school

00:05:04.180 that was really attractive to me in a harmful way and then I just I got caught up I made a lot of

00:05:13.000 very wrong decisions about who I surrounded myself with and the places that I got validation from,

00:05:19.920 which ended up being MAGA and this influencer culture. And very shortly afterwards, you're in

00:05:26.000 this environment in which they tell you, you don't need school, you don't need college,

00:05:30.460 only listen to, you know, Truth Social and Twitter and all of this. And you're sequestered

00:05:37.300 from information, you're told not to trust your professors or these points of authority.

00:05:41.500 And I dropped out and just made this my entire identity. So then it's when you leave, I often say it's not just changing your political beliefs and saying, oh, I'm not as fiscally conservative now or I'm more socially liberal. You're blowing up your entire life because your social community, your finances, everything is structured in this way. So it's indistinguishable from a cult in that aspect.

00:06:08.100 Yeah, I mean, listening to you describe it, I mean, you, by definition, start thinking in those terms.

00:06:12.800 But let me unpack this a little bit.

00:06:14.380 I mean, this notion of belonging, I think it's fascinating, this sense of belonging, this identity.

00:06:19.420 And so you describe a Trump rally.

00:06:22.540 I mean, was it really that moment?

00:06:23.880 Was it just watching that energy, the crowd, this community that inspired you?

00:06:30.300 Or were you naturally prone?

00:06:32.000 Were you, you know, was your politics sort of leaning in that direction?

00:06:35.700 Were you frustrated with the status quo? How did Trump ignite in you, or what was it that ignited?

00:06:45.600 It was more of this contrarian take. I always liked being a contrarian, and all of the heads

00:06:50.540 of the philosophy department, and I went for philosophy at that time, had signed a petition

00:06:55.020 to ban Trump from campus. And in my head, I'm like, oh, that's antithetical to everything

00:06:59.660 philosophy is about. But in retrospect, they were right, because this rhetoric was going down a very

00:07:05.300 dangerous and violent path. But in my head at that time as this, you know, I hadn't quite turned 18

00:07:12.340 yet. I went to this rally at 17 years old and I turned 18 right before I started. And it was,

00:07:18.600 you know, to me, I'm like, wow, there's all this energy and people like me and this is fun. And I

00:07:24.140 didn't have any of that in high school. I didn't go to prom. I didn't do any of that. So it was

00:07:29.440 this validation very quickly that I had never really experienced before. And were you, I'm just

00:07:36.180 curious, were your parents political? Were you political necessarily, or just, you just had that

00:07:41.180 little contrarian beat? So we moved from South Florida, which was a lot more diverse and all my

00:07:46.820 families from New York, from Queens and other areas that are more diverse. But throughout my

00:07:51.960 life, we also moved to very rural areas such as Alabama and Montana. And so while I wasn't

00:07:58.980 necessarily getting very conservative viewpoints at home, I was surrounded by it. Like in Montana,

00:08:05.060 the most unique sentence ever, my only friend there was a female Mennonite lumberjack. And so

00:08:10.900 it's like, it's a town of 250 people. And so I wasn't really exposed to varying viewpoints outside

00:08:17.360 of the internet. Right. And so you have this moment, they're trying to silence Trump. You're

00:08:25.640 like, this is wrong. And by the way, you were quick to say, maybe they were right, but maybe

00:08:33.120 they weren't right. And that's a deeper conversation we can have about this notion of free speech and

00:08:37.580 sort of the origin story of a little bit of what sort of has created this movement out of anger and

00:08:43.180 frustration of quote-unquote being canceled and not having necessarily those platforms that others

00:08:47.800 frankly oftentimes take for granted. But I'm curious, you know, you talk about going, feeling

00:08:54.080 some identity, some energy. You're homeschooled. Now all of a sudden there's a community that's

00:09:00.420 trying to pull you in. Is it just pull you in on the basis of just the joy of being the contrarian,

00:09:06.600 the joy of expressing yourself fully and the sort of diversity of opinion? What was the thing that

00:09:14.520 sort of attracted? Sort of. It's also just having friends, you know, because when you're in such an

00:09:20.360 isolated community, like in the middle of nowhere, Montana, and then you're here and you're being

00:09:24.840 invited as a special guest to Turning Point and you feel like you're all of a sudden not this,

00:09:29.960 you know, little small girl, you're important and people care what you have to say. That's really

00:09:35.500 validating in a harmful way. And was it so you talk about turning point? I mean, that was a

00:09:41.260 turning point for you. I mean, was it that organization? What you know, that was sort of

00:09:46.440 the beginning of the organization, right? When Charlie? Yes, it was very early on. And it was

00:09:51.600 very campus oriented. And again, simultaneously part of it's it coincides with the content,

00:09:58.160 right? Because you're also posting online. And there's these stories going up on Fox News of

00:10:03.280 professors who say something that's a little too woke. And so you're going to school, but you're

00:10:08.300 viewing it through this content brain of, oh, am I going to get one? Oh, I can't trust them.

00:10:13.160 And so it really bastardizes your experience in academia because you're viewing it through this

00:10:19.560 like Charlie Kirk turning point content brain that is really harmful. And when you were with

00:10:26.320 Charlie, I mean, did you, what, what, you know, it's interesting. We started this podcast with

00:10:31.480 with charlie and you know obviously tragic what happened to him um and i'm interested and look

00:10:37.160 forward to your thoughts about where the movement is today uh but what what aspects of that movement

00:10:42.380 what was it about charlie in the beginning of that movement uh that that you really may not

00:10:48.180 have identified with necessarily on the substance but just the style that there was something here

00:10:52.640 that he was doing that no one else was necessarily doing what was you know success leaves clues and

00:10:57.120 he was successful at organizing the campuses. I'm curious, what examples, what cues did you see

00:11:02.680 or clues early on of this sort of genesis of success? He articulated himself well, but also

00:11:09.720 when you're capitalism brained, you view any mode of success or ambition as a moral good. So ambition

00:11:17.960 and success was equated with morality in my head. So I'm like, wow, he's so young and successful,

00:11:23.460 And that could be me, too. All I need to do is drop out of school and keep fighting the good fight.

00:11:29.120 And so I think that's but Charlie at times was also encouraging, you know, at times when I had tough times in Republican politics.

00:11:38.080 And so he had the softer side that was captivating to people who were going through a lot.

00:11:43.900 And I don't think he was quite aware of the way in which his organization was and has been used by people much bigger with a lot more money than him to utilize it for their own agenda and mobilize this sort of rhetoric across America.

00:11:59.440 So, Ashley, how old were you at the time?

00:12:01.220 I mean, you're young 20s at this time or 20s?

00:12:04.840 Well, I'm 27 now.

00:12:06.180 I was this happened right away when I was 18 going on college campuses.

00:12:09.900 I went to my first Turning Point event, like 1920, and so it was very early on.

00:12:16.960 And so was this, I mean, did this become a profession then for you?

00:12:20.380 I mean, you morphed in all of a sudden.

00:12:22.780 What was the first opportunity to monetize where you realized, wait a second, I'm getting

00:12:26.280 paid for this?

00:12:27.340 So it was actually, I had had like normal jobs working in campaigns and cleaning up

00:12:32.760 bad data and volunteering.

00:12:34.560 but i dated a man who was 10 years my senior and i met him at the young women's leadership

00:12:40.540 conference and within a month of meeting him he's like moved to tampa with me you can just do maga

00:12:46.100 influencing he was this big influencer guy dc drano um and he's like here's how you do it here's

00:12:52.840 the sign you hold up outside of the ice detention center this will go viral um here's the shirts you

00:12:58.640 can sell, the flags you can sell. And that's when I started learning how to monetize activism

00:13:04.720 and learn that it's an industry. It's interesting. And you made the point earlier and you're

00:13:11.500 reinforcing it now. I mean, the connection between the movement and the medium, which is the media

00:13:17.000 and the clips and the virality and the ability to quote unquote influence substantively

00:13:21.600 and break through. And so that's interesting. So he sort of, he designed in your mind.

00:13:27.140 Yeah, he molded me. Yeah, he molded. And so you see her out there and you're feeling a sense of community, connection, relationships.

00:13:36.860 But also fear, because what that boyfriend of mine had drove into my head was there were a few times I found myself in controversy for, you know, stepping out of line, for having a more reasonable take on reproductive rights or immigration.

00:13:51.380 and he drove into my head he said never cross the base never cross the base um and that's very much

00:13:57.540 prolific throughout MAGA you're not supposed to do that so so while it was these good feelings

00:14:02.160 it was also very quickly a feeling of fear of stepping out of line and staying within the

00:14:07.820 talking points and you know you're going to get cancelled now you've dropped out of school you'll

00:14:11.940 lose your income you're moving to a place far far away from home and so so the fear aspect took took

00:14:19.020 a fact very early on as well. It's interesting. And I want to unpack that as well. Particularly,

00:14:25.780 you know, what is the base with its basis, whatever Trump says it is, because he seems to

00:14:29.520 shape shift often on issues. And with it, the base seems to move along with him. I guess it's

00:14:34.900 just waiting for that cue. But I'm curious, just back to your first paycheck, do you remember

00:14:39.540 where you actually, you know, someone said, here's a thousand bucks or, you know, how did it,

00:14:44.480 What was the formal relationship and role to someone that can write a check, the boss?

00:14:53.060 I believe it was just an Instagram message or Twitter DM that was like, I'll pay you

00:14:57.300 to retweet this or post this.

00:14:59.340 And then I got other ones for wearing the t-shirts or the deals for, hey, make your

00:15:04.100 own t-shirts, anti-socialist social club, all of the, I believe I also had one that

00:15:09.500 said, make California America again.

00:15:12.520 There were a few of those.

00:15:14.480 but it was just through DMs and here's a PayPal.

00:15:17.800 And I'm like, oh, look at this, very quickly.

00:15:21.780 Because I've gotten to know some of these folks

00:15:23.960 and I have sort of an interesting history

00:15:26.140 and relationship to a little bit of the Trump past

00:15:29.920 and which I've unpacked modestly here on the podcast.

00:15:34.360 But I'm curious, how much of it for you

00:15:37.820 was real versus performative?

00:15:40.320 How much of it was substance versus style?

00:15:43.200 meaning were these true believers that you were surrounded by or performers that were just trying

00:15:51.000 to sort of you know own the libs own that governor in california and just don't you know don't

00:15:56.020 california my montana or my texas i mean what you know what was it about what we're against or but

00:16:01.660 what we're for give me a sense of you know who were the early influences for you was it a sense

00:16:07.080 of deep sincerity conviction for me say hello to your new favorite drinks introducing new

00:16:13.820 mccafe refreshers icy cool undeniably refreshing and available in three flavors strawberry

00:16:20.500 watermelon mango pineapple and blackberry passion fruit only at mcdonald's last night a blown call

00:16:26.860 changed the game this morning the internet lost its mind highlights are trending opinions are

00:16:31.600 flying and nobody's telling you exactly what happened that's where sports slice comes in

00:16:36.040 I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines.

00:16:42.520 We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear, the laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight reel.

00:16:53.800 From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

00:17:02.320 Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them.

00:17:07.120 Listen to Sports Slice on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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00:18:16.660 Number one hits, millions of records sold,

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00:18:25.860 because we're sick and tired of being asked questions.

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00:18:29.320 and their first guest is a big one, Paul Rudd.

00:18:31.980 You know, Steve Carell is a great singer.

00:18:34.120 Can he tell you not to audition at The Office or something?

00:18:36.240 I told him.

00:18:36.980 Whoa.

00:18:37.400 We were filming Anchorman. 1.00

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00:18:44.660 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:18:47.800 It started out that way,

00:18:49.620 and I think most of these people would tell you

00:18:51.840 that they are true believers,

00:18:53.260 but they really are performers

00:18:55.580 who have gotten so deep

00:18:57.660 And their views have oscillated so much within what's acceptable within the base that they're just deeply broken and insecure people who lack any real sense of identity.

00:19:09.400 What was fascinating is when you go to events or you go to the bar with these people afterwards, they can't talk about anything else.

00:19:18.800 Like it's they're only talking about, do you see what Joe Biden did?

00:19:22.020 Did you see this?

00:19:22.840 They're shells of human beings who are wearing this MAGA costume, and it's become their entire identity. Nobody's really talking about real things. And so I do believe that they're all performers. I believe MAGA has the deepest issues with identity that I've ever had the displeasure of interacting with.

00:19:44.940 And again, identity on the basis of just who, I mean, as individuals.

00:19:49.440 Yes.

00:19:50.380 Who that, yeah, sort of, and they're in the process of becoming and discovering who they are, but they put this mask on.

00:19:56.600 They've never had the opportunity to become because they've been plucked and told what to be.

00:20:01.540 And so they don't ever have that opportunity of becoming.

00:20:05.000 And now with this age of the internet, it's very hard to have that rebirth, to have that reinvention, because you have this permanent digital footprint of you being a racist online. So it's very hard to have a rebirth after that. So they're kind of stuck in that as well.

00:20:22.560 It's interesting.

00:20:23.200 So with your own experience and a little bit of with Charlie Kirk and Turning Point USA, you're starting to, you know, ex-boyfriend and, you know, learning how to shitpost, as we say, and, you know, putting on, you know, literally physically, you know, showing up with signs and T-shirts, et cetera.

00:20:44.000 Is it a loose confederation or has it evolved or devolved?

00:20:48.400 Is it organized?

00:20:49.420 Is it, you know, is it become radically different than it was three, four years ago, Trump 1.0 versus Trump 2.0? Are there sort of central key figures that are organizing and sharing down a vision? Or is it, again, a bottom up, but within the dear leader's frame? How would you describe the confederation or lack thereof, the brand MAGA?

00:21:14.380 So a lot of people will say, you know, they were duped by Trump and it's really evolved from what it was years ago. But what I would say to that is it did evolve into the form that people warned us it was going to evolve into. Yes, it has changed, but it changed into what I would say now is like this final form of this authoritarianism that we were warned that it was going to evolve into.

00:21:37.580 It was a natural evolution of the things that were being prepped.

00:21:42.020 Originally, yeah, it was more open tent. 0.83

00:21:44.400 It was a little more, OK, we don't hate trans and gay people. 0.97

00:21:48.940 OK, we love our token black conservatives. 0.72

00:21:51.820 And then it really, once they gained more of a foothold of power, you saw that section off. 0.99

00:21:57.800 And I do believe that was by design.

00:22:01.120 In design, where?

00:22:03.240 I mean, is this Trump?

00:22:04.340 For power.

00:22:05.400 Yeah.

00:22:06.480 For power.

00:22:06.940 For power. And that power lies where? Is it Trump himself? Is it Junior? Is it where? I mean, who, you know, we can, and we'll jump into some names and James, more of the contemporary names in the political operation. But early on, where did you see the power reside, you know, four, five, six years ago?

00:22:26.820 Four, five, six years ago, the power was really with Trump. And I do believe that Trump as a figure was co-opted by the Stephen Millers of the world and the people who are really financially invested and ideologically invested in their own vision for America.

00:22:42.040 And now we're seeing it being co-opted further by the tech oligarchs and all of this, that it's the power is really consolidating among this. I mean, you have Jeff Bezos, who won't say a bad thing about Trump now.

00:22:53.280 So they're really aligning with where they see this power.

00:22:57.200 Trump was years ago just a figure that they realized we can co-op this guy for our own agenda.

00:23:05.740 And early on, who were those early figures and what was the agenda when you first started?

00:23:12.400 I mean, obviously you talk about, I mean, there's the issues of reproductive rights.

00:23:16.760 You talk about some of those, I think there's sort of contrarian issues and just, you know, anti, obviously the elites and, you know, all those, the Biden and Harris and Obama types, myself, I imagine California included.

00:23:32.220 But what was, I mean, what was the uniting construct in the beginning of your experience with MAGA?

00:23:38.100 The uniting construct was mostly these MAGA-isms of free speech and holding the elites accountable.

00:23:44.540 But there was also, particularly within the right wing online sphere, there was a lot of gendered issues. It was very anti-feminism. It was the birthplace and the foundations of the Andrew Tates of the world. And what we're seeing now that has really evolved, very anti-feminism, very anti-Me Too. Like, why are you just hating on the white guy type of stuff?

00:24:05.200 And they would utilize people like me. And I remember there was a very large MAGA figure when I first started blowing up online who came to me and said, you should speak on this issue. I think it was Alita Battle Angel or whatever. They were mad that Brie Larson had said something against white men, straight white men.

00:24:23.580 and so very early on I was co-opted to speak on these issues regarding men because it was better

00:24:30.140 for it to come from a woman like me um and so that was very pertinent early on was and it's

00:24:38.500 interesting you say co-opted meaning at the time you didn't feel co-opted though right no I thought

00:24:43.880 they were coming to me because I was so such a special snowflake and so smart and I was like

00:24:49.840 i've been chosen um and you know i i call it the pick me isms like i just so wanted to be picked

00:24:56.420 and heard and and so in that moment you don't feel but in retrospect i'm like wow i was i was

00:25:03.040 used by these people for something really really harmful that i'm scared we're not going to be able

00:25:09.380 to undo did you what was do you remember the the post that really where you felt like you're now

00:25:15.900 deep inside this? Like now you're actually, you even surprised you how viral a statement was or

00:25:23.200 an issue was something that for you became more indelible and a consciousness of how powerful

00:25:28.660 this movement is and how powerful even your voice would become. So for a while, I was like mostly a

00:25:34.740 shit poster. I would pretend to be serious at times, but it wasn't really until I was with 0.99

00:25:41.020 Elon that I would see some of these effects of my words or effects of Elon himself that I'm like 0.96

00:25:48.740 this is actually really consequential and it sounds naive and stupid to say oh you didn't 0.57

00:25:53.340 realize till then that your actions had so many consequences and that's something that I've really 0.70

00:25:58.500 had to unpack and unpack the harm that I did for nearly a decade in this movement saying things in

00:26:04.580 the communities that I hurt, women, minorities, the trans community, I just didn't even consider.

00:26:12.500 I was completely unempathetic to how my words and actions impacted other people. And I've had to do 0.73

00:26:19.080 a lot of... Say hello to your new favorite drinks. Introducing new McCafe refreshers. Icy, cool,

00:26:26.560 undeniably refreshing, and available in three flavors. Strawberry watermelon, mango pineapple,

00:26:32.080 and BlackBerry passion fruit.

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00:26:35.320 Last night, a blown call changed the game.

00:26:37.700 This morning, the internet lost its mind.

00:26:39.780 Highlights are trending, opinions are flying,

00:26:41.960 and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

00:26:44.640 That's where Sports Slice comes in.

00:26:46.160 I'm Timbo.

00:26:46.900 Every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

00:26:48.920 breaking down the plays, the controversies,

00:26:50.840 and the stories behind the headlines.

00:26:52.620 We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves,

00:26:55.460 their locker room stories, their reactions,

00:26:57.580 the stuff nobody gets to hear.

00:26:59.260 The laughs, the drama, the triumphs,

00:27:01.400 the moments that never make the highlight real.

00:27:03.720 From viral moments to historic games,

00:27:05.880 from buzzer beaters to controversial calls,

00:27:07.940 we break it down, give you context,

00:27:09.920 and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

00:27:12.560 Sports Slice brings you closer to the action

00:27:14.660 with stories told by the people who live them.

00:27:17.040 Listen to Sports Slice on the iHeartRadio app,

00:27:19.500 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:27:21.720 And for more, follow Timbo Slice Life 12

00:27:24.260 and the TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

00:27:26.920 Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect.

00:27:30.440 We were God's chosen kingdom on earth.

00:27:33.060 He felt destined for greatness. 1.00

00:27:36.420 So when a swaggering Armenian businessman catapults Jacob into an extraordinary world, 1.00

00:27:42.280 he doesn't look back. 1.00

00:27:43.640 Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets.

00:27:45.880 Meeting the president of Turkey.

00:27:48.620 I'm Michelle McPhee, and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies I've ever come across.

00:27:55.040 When Jacob met Levon, this went to a billion dollar fraud.

00:27:59.100 But with two kings from entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive?

00:28:05.760 The largest tax investigation in American history.

00:28:08.900 You need to tell me what you know.

00:28:11.100 Is somebody coming after me?

00:28:13.080 Jacob told Lovon, you're ruining my life.

00:28:17.340 Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:28:24.160 hey it's us the jonas brothers and guess what we have some big news what's the news huge news

00:28:31.320 we created our own podcast called hey jonas we invented a podcast well we didn't invent it we

00:28:38.040 we just contributed to first people to do podcasts pretty yeah pretty wide range of

00:28:42.680 but this one's extra special so how did we how do we actually come up with the name hey jonas guys

00:28:48.820 i honestly don't remember i think it was on a call about what we should call it and

00:28:53.720 Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers.

00:29:02.500 This is how you guys remember it going down?

00:29:04.600 Yes.

00:29:05.000 I have a very different memory of this.

00:29:06.540 We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas.

00:29:10.740 And then I wrote down on my little notepad, hey, Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast.

00:29:17.760 But thanks for remembering that, guys.

00:29:19.000 Listen to Hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:29:24.280 Just listen. We don't care where you hear it.

00:29:27.300 Work, making amends for that, and really saying, hey, here's where I went wrong,

00:29:31.320 here's where I was lacking, and trying to understand why I made those decisions.

00:29:38.360 It's interesting, and I don't want to over-index our time on Elon,

00:29:44.060 But as someone that knew Elon, you know, back in the day and seen him radically change from the person I remember back in the early 2000s, particularly politically.

00:29:59.860 Yeah, I would say he probably didn't change.

00:30:02.200 People just weren't listening to the stories, particularly of women, that he was involved with.

00:30:07.960 Because when you do read the words that his first wife, Justine, wrote, it was always there.

00:30:13.800 We just ignored it.

00:30:16.140 Yeah, no, well, I appreciate that.

00:30:18.600 But he came into the movement, it seems, a little later, obviously.

00:30:22.220 I mean, he wasn't necessarily part of Team Trump and MAGA, as it's described, despite some of those political leanings, as you suggest, and those values.

00:30:31.140 what you know you you describe what a dm that's how he reached out to you just because he was

00:30:37.020 impressed with some of the stuff you were posting yeah i was at the babylon b which he had an affinity

00:30:41.740 for at that time and he ended up dming me and then we met at twitter headquarters what have you but

00:30:49.320 even in his private conversations with me that's another instance of co-opting i i really do believe

00:30:54.600 that he finds the these populist movements whether in the united states or the uk or germany

00:30:59.480 And he realizes that they're very easy to co-opt and manipulate for his own agenda of basically digitizing these governments and getting an insurmountable amount of data.

00:31:11.380 And, you know, that's one conversation I did want to have with you and just ask you, because California was kind of at the forefront of this and allowed for a lot of these Silicon Valley and these tech companies to fester under California.

00:31:29.060 And I guess the question I have for you is like Silicon Valley didn't just build software. It's built something that are the civilizational scale experiment that is unreasonably safe. And so why, at least in California, was innovation considered like the sufficient excuse and capitalism considered this sufficient excuse and justification to expose the public to such risk?

00:31:56.060 And the most important question I have for you is, did California become so economically dependent on Silicon Valley that it lost the ability to act as an independent watchdog for these organizations?

00:32:09.900 And why was so much of this allowed to be built?

00:32:13.760 And are there any regrets that you have?

00:32:16.380 Yeah, no, look, I think it's a fair question, but I think it lacks any context.

00:32:20.860 California is the dominant leader in privacy, dominant leader in regulation.

00:32:27.780 It relates to AI.

00:32:29.940 We led the nation the first safety measures for large language models, frontier models.

00:32:33.960 We created a privacy council six, seven years ago, a statewide council that's focused on data privacy, first state to advance.

00:32:43.280 In fact, Connecticut just backed into a similar framework that California laid out as it relates to the DELETE Act,

00:32:49.240 which California did as it relates to our own data and having control over it. We led the nation

00:32:54.120 as it relates to child protections, but we were sued by these same companies. We're in litigation

00:32:59.480 and half dozen lawsuits, but we've led the nation in every one of these categories. We were very

00:33:05.360 aggressive. You guys have, and you've done great work in terms of passing laws that help victims

00:33:11.060 seek justice after the harm occurs. But I guess what gets me is there was also a lot of conditions

00:33:19.660 that were able to be created before the harm was done. And how do we intervene before the harm is

00:33:27.840 done instead of placing this burden on victims now to prove the harm after these products are

00:33:33.320 deployed, instead of telling these companies to stop and placing a really hard stop on these

00:33:40.400 technology companies before they prove safety. And I'm seeing that in the EU too. I have these

00:33:47.640 conversations internationally about the harm. And it's like, why don't we just turn the spigot off?

00:33:53.640 Is it because they're so powerful? Is it because they have so much force behind them? Why can't we

00:33:59.220 turn the spigot off until they prove that it's reasonably safe, just like any other company?

00:34:04.640 If a pharmaceutical company has a drug, we make sure it's safe first.

00:34:08.260 I think there's no question that the collective we, and this was well before I was even governor, as it relates to social media and its harms, we failed on that.

00:34:19.260 I had Tristan Harris on and others that have been real leaders in this calling this out.

00:34:23.560 We've talked a lot about it, extensively not only on this platform, but substantively in terms of our legislative efforts in the state to not make the same mistakes with AI.

00:34:33.720 And so what you just described are the lessons that we've learned as it relates to adopting safety measures and transparency measures, as it relates to AI and what's happening in terms of how all this is going to be supercharged.

00:34:47.880 As it relates to deep fakes, as it relates to privacy, as it relates to child protection, you're talking the governor has more receipts than any other governor in the United States of America.

00:34:56.940 We've done more than anyone else.

00:34:58.280 Is it good enough?

00:34:59.120 No, that's why this year we're going to ban social media for everyone under 16.

00:35:02.680 will be the first large scale jurisdiction to do that again in the home state of this. And we

00:35:07.940 imagine that's going to happen all across the United States because California moves, we tend

00:35:12.320 to see movement all across the country. So not perfect, but no one, but best in class by a

00:35:19.040 relative side. California is one of the only states doing it. And California is in such a weird

00:35:23.960 position because while they're one of the only states doing this legislation, there's also been

00:35:29.500 so much festering within California that it's been built here. And so what is the answer to that?

00:35:36.120 It's interesting. Just back to Elon, I mean, we've been battling, battling on these issues

00:35:40.720 around deep fakes, around election, just the integrity of our elections. And you can look at

00:35:47.320 his, just the sewage of tweets that he's put out condemning our leadership in that, including,

00:35:53.720 by the way, where you and I are aligned as it relates to what happened to you and the litigation.

00:35:58.740 And I appreciate you're in litigation against XAI, but you may have seen what was happening to you and others, California-led.

00:36:08.200 And I directed our AG, our attorney general, to go after Grok, and they actually stood down.

00:36:13.860 I think it was a combination of your lawsuit and our investigation.

00:36:18.560 And I think it was within a few hours after we posted that we're doing the investigation.

00:36:23.440 And after a few days of what you did, that Elon finally acted like he was shocked.

00:36:28.800 I appreciate that, too.

00:36:29.600 You know, there's bank robbers.

00:36:30.220 I appreciate that.

00:36:31.480 So, no, look, I think you're right.

00:36:33.640 But I also think, I mean, in terms of just the larger meta frame, but California, as

00:36:39.800 a specific example, has a lot of credibility, at least in trying to balance those things.

00:36:46.560 As it relates to the influence, the influence is usually on the back end, Ashley.

00:36:50.660 It's interesting.

00:36:51.700 We're passing these laws.

00:36:53.400 I'm signing these laws, but they're litigating.

00:36:56.140 And what they're using is the courts now to slow down the progress.

00:37:02.000 And it's interesting where they don't have the throw with the legislature or maybe the governor.

00:37:07.740 We'll see what happens to the next governor.

00:37:09.300 They're counting on the slow system of adjudication with the third branch.

00:37:16.860 And time is, that's, you know, that's their ally.

00:37:20.400 Yes, especially through, I mean, the way in which they've co-opted the judicial system to just tie all of this up. How do we fix that? I guess you're a better person to ask. How do we fix that? How do we stop that?

00:37:35.000 You've got to win.

00:37:35.380 How do you stop that?

00:37:36.660 You've got to be ruthless in winning. You can't be winning arguments. You've got to win power. You've got to get power back. You've got to take back the United States Senate, not just the House of Representatives.

00:37:45.120 So you have oversight in these federal appointees. We've got to take back state houses so that we have governors that are appointing judges at the state level, particularly in states like California that have outsized role in regulation that reflect the broader values that I think you and I share in this respect.

00:38:02.200 I love that approach, too, especially, you know, if we take it back to the beginning of the conversation, too, with the philosophy professor signing that petition to ban Trump, right, and whether or not that's too hard.

00:38:15.560 I think right now we're at a point where we can't ask if it's if it's too much or if we need to be centrist or moderate because they're not.

00:38:26.720 As you're aware, they're fighting very hard and very dirty to to a point that I don't know that we're going to be able to take that back.

00:38:34.620 And so I hope that nobody gets stuck within this point of like oscillating between placating both sides and just sticking to the gutting instinct of what is right. Is this wrong? And if it is, we need to fight back with every force that we have instead of placating people who have been a part of a lot of harm.

00:38:55.820 I tend to agree with you. And we manifested quite literally a frame that I think is appropriate to reference. Prop 50 fighting fire with fire. We did redistricting, you know, and I agree with you.

00:39:10.040 our way back into power is through the fight, not necessarily through the center. But that said,

00:39:15.780 you know, I also think, and it's the reason I started this podcast with guys like Bannon and

00:39:19.940 Kirk and people I deeply disagree with and, you know, having people on there that have been

00:39:23.940 attacking me and doing everything to take me down, not professionally, but personally. And,

00:39:28.860 but I, you know, I still believe divorce is not an option. That's the framework of this podcast,

00:39:33.140 that we have to live together and advance together across our differences. And, you know, that's,

00:39:37.900 you know, back to sort of my comments about, you know, Trump, I, you know, I'll still talk to him

00:39:42.680 open hand, not a closed fist. At the same time, you know, we'll do Prop 50. You know, we've had

00:39:48.340 63 or four lawsuits against Trump. We're going to go hard back in terms of, you know, pushing back

00:39:56.760 against, you know, all this BS. Though I would disagree. I think divorce is an option when your

00:40:02.240 spouse wants to kill you. I think that's, that's absolutely an option when your spouse wants to

00:40:08.380 kill you. Yeah, well, you know, and I just, so that's why I wanted to unpack with you a little

00:40:12.020 bit more because I, I just, you know, everyone wants to be loved. Everyone needs to be loved.

00:40:17.000 We all want to be, you know, the old frame, protected, connected, respected, that we want

00:40:21.440 to be respected. No one wants to be talked down to or passed to. We want to be part of something

00:40:25.060 bigger than ourselves. And, and so, you know, this, I think all that matters, that sense of

00:40:29.920 belonging. And I get that at a Trump rally, people feel connected to something bigger than

00:40:33.760 themselves. You talk in terms of relationships and friends, that relationship with Elon led to

00:40:39.760 a beautiful child. And that's life. And we all live it. And I don't want to go that we breathe

00:40:46.340 the same air nonsense, except we do. And so- Well, some people breathe air that is polluted

00:40:51.520 by data centers. So we don't breathe the same air, actually. Some people's air is being polluted by

00:40:59.020 mega corporations i get it and we got to call that out you're talking to the fiercest environmentalists

00:41:04.520 in the country right here uh despite the fact that i believe in a transition that works we're

00:41:09.940 getting that's another subject about the fact i i drove here today and so i yes i went to the gas

00:41:15.400 station forgive me so i'm hardly a purist and sometimes i probably feel a little more cynical

00:41:20.480 than some uh about maga but it's because i i saw them when they were alone i saw them when they

00:41:28.060 were drunk. I saw the things that they did and they said, and, um, I don't think a lot of these

00:41:35.300 people particularly in power are interested in some unified front. I don't. And we, we have to

00:41:41.900 consider if you're letting the barbarians into the gate, um, when let me into the gate, I had 0.84

00:41:48.740 zero followers. Actually, you can appreciate this as an influencer. I had zero, uh, when I,

00:41:54.980 when Charlie platform me, when Ben and platform me, when all of these guys, you know, Ben and

00:42:01.680 others, I, yeah, I'm not platforming anyone. They already have huge platforms. I just,

00:42:07.220 you know, I can't, just turning our back doesn't mean they turn off. And I think, you know,

00:42:12.160 trying to understand what motivates people, trying to understand, you know, the why,

00:42:16.800 what's the Bernie why allows us to be able to position ourselves and, you know, and, and fight

00:42:22.660 back in a different way with a deeper sense of understanding. You got to know your enemy, as they

00:42:26.320 say. But you also have to understand, you know, I come from the prison, not everyone's an enemy

00:42:31.240 that underneath all of it. I don't know. I just, I find I'm a little bit more hopeful and I appreciate

00:42:38.300 you're a little more cynical. I used to be you, Ashley. I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic that we can

00:42:43.680 fight back, but I realize that the optimism has to be based on a really difficult fight

00:42:50.020 where a lot of people are going to have to make material sacrifices.

00:42:54.660 You know, I don't want to hear about how much money someone made anymore.

00:42:57.780 I want to know about the money they turned down.

00:42:59.920 I want to know what they've sacrificed.

00:43:02.020 And not enough people talk about that.

00:43:04.080 I want to hear what people regret.

00:43:05.760 You know, I want to know what you regret as governor,

00:43:08.820 things that you could have done differently.

00:43:11.840 Or because as we're building the system that aggregates humanity,

00:43:15.900 I think it's just as important that we speak about the regrets

00:43:19.040 so that whatever they're building knows what to avoid.

00:43:22.440 And if nobody's being honest about that,

00:43:25.700 that's going to be incredibly difficult to overcome.

00:43:30.360 I agree with you on that.

00:43:31.900 And we can go back to my 1,000-page COVID report

00:43:35.820 and we can go through that list.

00:43:38.140 He's got all his wins on a list.

00:43:40.200 I love how much you know your wins.

00:43:42.340 No, well, that's why we put so...

00:43:44.200 I couldn't agree with you more.

00:43:45.360 You got to own up.

00:43:46.160 You got to...

00:43:46.560 That's a hell.

00:43:47.040 I wrote a whole book on that.

00:43:48.520 But that's what you're doing right now. And I appreciate that. You're just being honest and transparent. And, you know, and you're not dreaming of regretting. I mean, the fact that you're willing to confront, you know, you know, it's well known that you wrote a children's book that you regret writing and sort of anti-trans children book and and but also the things you posted.

00:44:09.980 And so I want to talk just a little bit more about that, because, you know, right now, you know, I'm here, you know, stone's throw away where I first learned about this person, Laura Loomer.

00:44:20.460 She was dressed up in a costume. She jumped over the fence here at the governor's mansion.

00:44:25.680 And she, you know, she broke sort of that barrier of privacy.

00:44:28.920 And she did it online and, you know, got a bunch of followers.

00:44:32.540 And she's I'm no fan of hers. I don't know of redeeming quality.

00:44:36.720 I thought she was, I was a little embarrassed for her, actually.

00:44:39.560 I thought she needed a little help.

00:44:41.260 But that was the beginning.

00:44:42.560 And then she blew up.

00:44:43.520 Now she's a damning, seems like real influence with Trump.

00:44:47.100 And I'm trying to sort of unpack.

00:44:48.180 I mean, that's, to me, madness that she has somehow has the ear of the president.

00:44:52.660 But, you know, you have all these folks in this sort of right wing influence sphere.

00:44:56.500 You got the ones like Laura that people seem to know about, Candace Owens that people seem 0.96

00:45:00.620 to know about, obviously Tucker Carlson people know about.

00:45:03.400 but you have also these other characters this jack i can't even remember his name you know

00:45:08.740 basobic i mean these are the guys and this mike guy sure up whatever the hell his name is

00:45:14.080 yeah these guys i mean these are the pizzagate guys i mean literally these are the people that

00:45:20.260 were talking about sexual predators and they were they did nothing when you were being unmasked on

00:45:26.760 grok the same they did not especially these people who claim to care about women and children and

00:45:32.460 The only time they claim that is when they're targeting the trans community and a section of the population that's less than one percent of the population.

00:45:40.740 And what I can say, especially as the Democrats try to navigate and they say, well, maybe we went too far on the trans issue.

00:45:48.100 No, you didn't, because these people are targeting less than one percent of the population. 0.94

00:45:53.140 And that's really cruel and evil. And if we ignore that cruelty that they've done to this very marginalized group of people, it's going to be done to you.

00:46:01.700 But what I can say about these influencers is we fixate on the caricatures and not the system and the architecture that has allowed them to prosper.

00:46:10.020 And that is Twitter. That is X.

00:46:12.560 And it is being manipulated in a way that I believe is really dangerous to the future of our democracy and elections,

00:46:19.260 that we don't have transparency into how this data is being analyzed for elections,

00:46:24.880 which people are being boosted in this algorithm,

00:46:27.380 them, which people are, you know, that these characters are able to amass millions of followers

00:46:32.120 despite being previously banned everywhere. And that is what needs to be fixated on. And so often

00:46:39.120 the caricature of these people on the right get the headlines, as opposed to governing the

00:46:44.580 infrastructure that's allowing this. And that is really important. I love what you're saying. And

00:46:49.700 I don't want to lose this thread, but I do want to sort of illuminate that their component

00:46:57.140 parts, these guys are knitting these things together. This guy, Jack and Mike and these

00:47:01.120 others that people don't know about. And these are, so these are the influencers that are dialing

00:47:06.240 up the rage, dialing up the anger. They were dialing you up, right? They were sort of building

00:47:10.880 your platform. And, and they're still at it, right? I mean, these guys are, you know, they're

00:47:17.260 part of, you know, these guys you've described, and I'd love to you to illuminate further. These

00:47:23.060 are folks on group chats, consistently trying to help weaponize grievance. They've got the

00:47:28.920 president's right-hand person, potentially James Blair, the political operation.

00:47:32.980 No, potentially. James Blair is in these group chats. Members of the administration are in

00:47:36.820 these group chats. They operate through group chats and have for many years in which they

00:47:40.920 coordinate these messaging campaigns on what they're going to respond to, how they're going

00:47:45.940 to respond to it or not respond to it. It is incredibly coordinated and sophisticated in

00:47:52.120 the way in which they coordinate this via group chats via signal via calls with the administration

00:47:58.940 and members of the campaign so it is and again this primarily festers on on twitter do you call

00:48:07.880 it soccer or do you call it football you're right who gives a it doesn't matter what you call it

00:48:15.440 the 90 minutes is what matters sports interaction has hundreds of markets on every match of the

00:48:21.880 tournament giving you thousands of ways to bet on what matters canada's premier betting

00:48:29.200 destination for the world's game bet with sports interaction 19 plus please play responsibly

00:48:36.520 last night a blown call changed the game this morning the internet lost its mind highlights

00:48:41.580 are trending opinions are flying and nobody's telling you exactly what happened that's where

00:48:46.520 sports slice comes in i'm timbo every episode we're cutting through the noise breaking down

00:48:50.920 the plays the controversies and the stories behind the headlines we go straight to the source the

00:48:55.880 athletes themselves their locker room stories their reactions the stuff nobody gets to hear

00:49:00.820 the laughs the drama the triumphs the moments that never make the highlight reel from viral

00:49:05.760 moments to historic games from buzzer beaters to controversial calls we break it down give you

00:49:10.800 context and ask the questions everybody wants answered sports slice brings you closer to the

00:49:15.880 action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the iHeartRadio

00:49:20.700 app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more, follow Timbo Slice

00:49:25.280 Life 12 and the TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

00:49:28.460 Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect.

00:49:32.260 We were God's chosen kingdom on earth.

00:49:34.560 He felt destined for greatness. So when a swaggering Armenian businessman catapults 1.00

00:49:41.460 Jacob into an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back. 1.00

00:49:44.960 Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets.

00:49:47.420 Meeting the president of Turkey.

00:49:50.100 I'm Michelle McPhee, and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies I've ever come across.

00:49:56.580 When Jacob met Levon, this went to a billion-dollar fraud.

00:50:00.820 But with two kings from entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive?

00:50:07.300 The largest tax investigation in American history.

00:50:10.380 You need to tell me what you know.

00:50:12.660 Is somebody coming after me?

00:50:14.400 Jacob told LaVon, you're ruining my life.

00:50:18.680 Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the iHeartRadio app,

00:50:22.220 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:50:44.400 starting a trend but this one's extra special so how did we how do we actually come up with

00:50:49.200 the name hey jonas guys i honestly don't remember i think it was on a call about what we should call

00:50:54.600 it and well we were thinking i'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band

00:51:01.520 before jonas brothers this is how you guys remember it going down yes i have a very different memory

00:51:07.380 of this we were talking about a thing a bit for the podcast people could call in and say hey jonas

00:51:12.140 And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast.

00:51:19.000 But thanks for remembering that, guys.

00:51:20.840 Listen to Hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:51:25.800 Just listen. We don't care where you hear it.

00:51:28.500 And back to that then.

00:51:30.160 So the idea that Elon has Twitter, idea that Elon ran one of the largest super PACs in U.S. history, America PAC,

00:51:37.640 idea that he invested hundreds of millions of dollars that we know of,

00:51:40.920 directly, that he ran their field campaign, a big part of it, and the data collection.

00:51:49.240 The fact that we do have someone as powerful as him is about to be exponentially more powerful

00:51:53.460 when this IPO at Starlink, which I call a Starlink IPO more than a SpaceX IPO,

00:51:59.220 that's the one profitable side of it, at least. And it's amazing, that rocket company.

00:52:03.260 One has to acknowledge that. But Grok's part of that.

00:52:06.880 But even that, why do we acknowledge it?

00:52:08.440 Why is it, you know, I used to think the same way.

00:52:12.120 I'm like, it's beautiful to go to the moon, to Mars and expand consciousness and you get

00:52:17.300 involved in this Elon Musk of it all.

00:52:19.460 But at the same time, it's like, why don't we leave the moon alone?

00:52:22.900 Why do we need the moon?

00:52:24.080 You know, like, why do we have to bastardize something so beautiful that everyone can look

00:52:28.320 up and see something so pure?

00:52:30.920 You know, my older son, he says, Mama, if you're ever not with me, just look at the

00:52:35.220 moon and I'll be there.

00:52:36.300 this is the philosophy student in you you're coming back to your roots it's so pure and

00:52:42.600 something that every human can look at and see something so pure and it's like i don't want to

00:52:47.120 look at the moon and think of american colonialism i don't and well he was supposed to be skipping it

00:52:52.640 to mars but it seems that was i don't want to look at mars and think of that either i don't want

00:52:56.360 american colonialism on mars and it's like why have we just accepted that yes let's let's expand

00:53:02.260 Like, do we deserve to expand?

00:53:04.660 We haven't even taken care of what we have now.

00:53:07.180 Like, do we deserve?

00:53:08.420 Do we have the credit score for the moon?

00:53:10.180 Do we have the credit score for Mars?

00:53:11.920 I'm in California.

00:53:13.100 Go west, young man, go west.

00:53:14.600 This notion of the frontier.

00:53:16.260 That's, you know, that's part of the rugged individualism, the history of our country.

00:53:20.260 And I think a big part of who we are as a species.

00:53:22.860 Maybe we can go to Mars or the moon and then leave Earth alone so that all of the life

00:53:27.280 here is untouched.

00:53:28.480 You know, there's not other life on the other planet.

00:53:30.400 So maybe we just put our diabolical species there and it'll be OK.

00:53:35.760 And then we leave Earth alone.

00:53:37.620 But, you know, it's it's.

00:53:39.180 But the power of these algorithms, the power that Elon himself has to dialing up rage, to determining what we see, what we hear, how we think, who we vote for.

00:53:52.920 That seems disproportionate.

00:53:54.780 the power of James Blair to connect and coordinate with all these influencers to have the daily

00:54:00.400 messages. You see it weaponized on Fox, the primetime line up there, which is Pravda. You

00:54:05.260 see it on the right, all, all across the right-wing spear. I've watched the New York Post,

00:54:09.540 the California Post, the daily, all this stuff, this stuff, and just the connective tissue.

00:54:14.940 And, and you were part of all of that. I mean, it's not, we're not overstating this.

00:54:19.780 No, no, I wasn't part of that. I saw it and you're not being hyperbolic. And I don't, I don't think there's an under discussed aspect of this as well. Yes, they have the power to influence what you think, who you think about, but they also have the data on what's going to be the most useful and the best way to exploit that.

00:54:40.020 If Cambridge Analytica was bad, this is Cambridge Analytica on methamphetamines and steroids at this point. And so it's the how. They know exactly how you think. They're creating this behavioral inference model that they know exactly which part of you to exploit, which vulnerability. It is like being in an abusive relationship where they know exactly where you're vulnerable and how to exploit that vulnerability to make you act in a certain way.

00:55:06.740 so i mean and is there any i mean does the do you see anything on the left that's comparable or you

00:55:14.940 don't want to see anything on the left that's comparable but do you see i don't want to see

00:55:19.360 anything comparable and that's what really terrifies me is when i speak about these things

00:55:23.980 i see people on the left and the democratic side saying we need this and no you don't it's it's

00:55:29.280 ontologically evil to have such unfettered capitalism and the the effects of citizens

00:55:35.320 united so prolific that we don't have these disclosure laws no the left needs to be going

00:55:41.740 hard and making sure that you cannot post anything you cannot be paid to post anything whether it's

00:55:48.160 an opinion an idea a philosophy that you like rousseau without disclosing that and that's

00:55:55.120 what needs to change um rather than building this evil apparatus for for yourselves i think that's

00:56:01.040 If I think it's bad on the right, it's also bad on the left. But you can stop them from doing it with laws and regulations.

00:56:08.440 Ashley, let me ask you about that, because it's interesting. We have a governor's race literally determined the primary today as we're as we're taping this.

00:56:16.820 And there's been a lot of reporting about influencers have gotten hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

00:56:23.100 No one was aware of it. There was no nothing transparent about it.

00:56:26.620 So is that that's just a space that's the Wild West, isn't it, for candidates and causes where influencers are paid and we think it's their voice.

00:56:36.780 But there's no political even in a political sense, there's no rules necessarily for transparency.

00:56:43.660 Yes, because the mechanism, as I'm sure you know, is the consulting houses.

00:56:48.160 The consulting houses, they are advantaged by a degree of privacy that they shouldn't have.

00:56:54.700 I think if you're a consulting house who is on these FEC reports, you should have to disclose everything in your books as well. It shouldn't disappear once it hits a consulting house. That's so easy. I can start an LLC tomorrow. You pay me a million dollars for your campaign and I disperse it to my secret influencers and nobody will ever know. That should not be allowed to occur.

00:57:15.880 um i i think this i mean i couldn't agree with you more this is an area that we're gonna have

00:57:21.040 to significantly i mean aggressively and quickly tighten up so what you mentioned the other day

00:57:26.040 and you know i got a lot of attention um you posted something about 10 000 late i mean what

00:57:32.260 what what the hell did you post 10 000 layers the implication the election was stolen all the

00:57:38.300 conspiracy theories and yes i knew it you know i had my friends i told you so i'm like oh god

00:57:43.380 what's going on here so tell us people people really need to and i want to preface this by

00:57:48.120 saying people should vote and they should vote loudly there is some something to say about the

00:57:52.780 right saying you know too big to rig everyone should turn out and i don't want to discourage

00:57:56.660 voter turnout when i talk about this experience um but shortly before the election in october

00:58:02.120 elon had texted me and said you know i'm feeling more optimistic about the election

00:58:06.420 and tomorrow i'm going to release my anomaly in the matrix uh i have lasers in space and then he

00:58:12.080 quantifies it. He says, I have over 10,000 lasers in space, which is nearly identical to the number

00:58:17.460 of satellites he has. And I told him, I said, I'd ask more, but I don't want to be deposed.

00:58:23.040 And he said, wise. But something else I had said, I said, you know, if this ends up being your

00:58:27.920 lasers in space end up being the reason that Trump wins, this would be like a sci-fi drama.

00:58:33.900 And, you know, he replied and agreed with that. So those are important aspects. What that means,

00:58:39.180 I'm not entirely sure. I also have other information that, you know, I came across during my time with him and speaking to his engineers. That is incredibly uncomfortable. But this, again, goes back to the governing architecture. Does anybody know? Is there any regulations or laws right now saying you cannot use your data from your satellites for elections or for proprietary data?

00:59:04.200 Is all of this being hid under proprietary data and intellectual property?

00:59:08.980 That is not OK.

00:59:10.660 And right now, we don't have the infrastructure.

00:59:13.480 There's not infrastructure or laws against using data from your space company,

00:59:18.840 whosoever space company it is, for whatever purpose you want, if it's private.

00:59:23.560 We've had so much hidden under private capital, and that needs to be addressed.

00:59:29.800 Why did you feel the need to share that, and why now?

00:59:33.400 Because I'm speaking about my entire experience as honestly and openly as I can, including moments that made me really raise an eyebrow and say this is concerning as someone who, you know, throughout my time in this relationship with Elon, he had also sent me data of real time delta vote metrics in October from Pennsylvania and information from his pack.

00:59:57.440 And as someone who was cleaning bad door knocking data from blitz canvassing, since I was 18, I looked at that and said, there's no apparatus that I know of that can create that data. So what are your inputs? What inputs are you using? And that's the question that other people need to ask.

01:00:17.440 And when people ask them, and hopefully governing bodies who come to me for this information, I can tell them what I know and what I think and the individuals who I spoke to as well. But what inputs create that level of certainty that nobody else had previously about when the election results were in? Those are the questions that need to be asked.

01:00:37.760 And when you start to, I mean, you've expressed literal concern for sharing this information publicly. You even suggested, didn't suggest, I think you stated, maybe you can clarify, that there was an opportunity or effort to say, hey, you don't need to share this, Ashley. We'll take care of you. I'll take care of you. Write a big damn check.

01:00:57.440 Yeah, I was offered $40 million, which included an NDA and non-disparagement into eternity, which I declined. Part of this information is why. Because I do believe him and his companies and everything that's being built to be incredibly consequential for the future of our country, the future of the country that my children will have to live in, the digital landscape that they'll have to live in. 0.98

01:01:21.440 And I think there's a lot worse than being middle class in America, and that's okay.

01:01:31.240 I'm comfortable with that to keep my integrity, and at least when push came to shove that I was able to turn that down. 0.95

01:01:38.980 And I also think women need to speak up. 0.53

01:01:42.300 I think a lot would not be allowed to happen if women stopped keeping a lot of secrets for men.

01:01:48.240 And is that because you're uniquely positioned because you have a voice, because you have enough resourcefulness, if not the resources? I mean, what do you say to those other women? I mean, what about all these folks that are sort of trapped in this mindset? 0.97

01:02:04.440 I think particularly the women of privilege, like I have a level of privilege having some sort of platform. And even if there's material hardship, I do have access to resources and educated individuals and people who are well networked that I can utilize. And there are many women within those Mar-a-Lago and the MAGA spheres that have that same access who can do something. And I'm very concerned about the proliferation of this privatized legal system through NDAs.

01:02:32.300 I don't think with most NDAs that there is any meaningful consent when people are signing them to pay their bills, feed their family or whatever.

01:02:41.700 So I do think that's another aspect that needs to be addressed because it's how so much evil has been allowed to occur.

01:02:47.660 And if we're supposed to be building a system to aggregate humanity and the honest version of it, but the honesty about the most powerful people cannot be said because of NDAs and this proliferation of this industry of silence, then we have a problem.

01:03:05.440 Yeah. Well said, by the way. I couldn't agree with you more.

01:03:08.760 So look, Ashley, as you move forward, as we move forward, as we move into midterm elections,

01:03:14.200 not making everything electoral, as we continue to move forward with this letter rip attitude

01:03:20.380 of the Trump administration as it relates to AI regulation or lack thereof, sort of the David

01:03:26.700 Sachs vacation of regulatory policy. And highlighted by the fact that Elon and a few

01:03:33.780 others. Zuckerberg made calls to Trump to stop him from even a modest executive order to begin

01:03:39.760 to do something. By the way, all they're trying to do is preempt California and our leadership on

01:03:44.880 this. They've tried to neutralize California. We saw Governor Hochul and now Pritzker back into

01:03:52.260 aspects of what California did to lead on some of the safety issues on AI. It's still not enough. I

01:03:57.640 get it. And we have more work to do. But the contrast with Trump is pretty illuminating.

01:04:03.780 How worried are you about fair and free elections? How worried are you about your son's father is going to be likely the first trillionaire in a matter of a couple of weeks? How concerned are you about capture and these algorithms and just a handful of people deciding our fading future in terms of what we read, see, hear, and believe?

01:04:26.060 I think people should be incredibly concerned about the elections just because of the new landscape we're creating. I often describe the Internet as we built this new planet. We're demanding that people inhabit it and live on it. And we have no idea if there's enough oxygen for people here.

01:04:42.200 And so we really need to be critical of this digital landscape and terrain that we've built and how that impacts our elections from data to manipulation to perception.

01:04:53.560 This is very important. Do I think that maybe there's lasers beaming down from space to change the vote on the Dominion machines?

01:05:01.240 Probably not. But do I believe that very powerful technology from very powerful individuals is being exploited to create outcomes that they want?

01:05:09.800 yes, that's happened throughout all of human history. And to say that that's not happening

01:05:13.840 would be incredibly ignorant to these levers of capitalism. And one thing I want people to know

01:05:20.100 is that the Silicon Valley bros would be very proficient in plantation accounting. And these

01:05:25.920 are systems that we've seen before, just at a much larger scale. So what you do is, and forgive me,

01:05:37.740 I'm just sort of belaboring this and diving deeper. How embedded from your perspective

01:05:45.800 are the operations on the inside, MAGA, and those operations with some of these

01:05:52.540 elite tech titans in the context of being even more deliberative in terms of hardwiring?

01:06:01.760 They are they are intimately intertwined. This is why big tech was at the forefront of all of these issues within MAGA, especially in 2020. And then Mark Zuckerberg changes course. And just look at who was front and center at the inauguration you had.

01:06:16.360 But showing up, I mean, there's benefit just showing up, but that doesn't mean you're, I mean, is it your perspective that by showing up, you're, I mean, that they're taking, they're, they're not just dipping their toe of support, they're, they're swimming.

01:06:30.100 Yes, they changed the algorithm. Some of these people who were previously banned or not allowed to monetize on these platforms, the floodgates have been opened and they are allowed to do this.

01:06:40.980 And, you know, there is an important distinction to make because I was very much on the free speech absolutism.

01:06:47.520 And that's different when you're the audience you're speaking to is local or you're making local change or national change.

01:06:53.780 But now you're demanding to be on this global platform and your words have global consequences. 0.98

01:06:58.240 And to pretend like the rules of the Internet and these influence operations and speech can be comparable to that within your local town square is asinine. 0.86

01:07:08.400 um you're going to law school ashley yes and so what's the what's the i mean is there there's got 0.90

01:07:17.140 to be a book come on you're telling me you're not working on a book it's impossible you're

01:07:21.020 i do write a lot i write enough that if i wanted to make a book i could publish it tomorrow um

01:07:27.020 so that's a yes you're writing a book i do i write and i do a lot of like aid memoir um

01:07:32.740 but it's not the right time for me to sell anything to anybody right now it's just not

01:07:38.520 um i have a lot of work that i need to do and financial amends that i need to make to

01:07:43.560 the communities that i contributed harm to and there's there's going to be a lot of backlash

01:07:48.520 for a while i think there's also this this effect where i'm the most accessible

01:07:52.740 mega figure to many people now so they like to take it out on me and that's okay and i understand

01:07:58.580 But there is. When you leave, you realize the vast amounts of harm that you contributed to and the very real harm that I was ignorant to because of my own privilege, like I just didn't have these experiences.

01:08:12.300 And there's there's so much happening. They talk about the transfer of wealth. It's not really a transfer of wealth.

01:08:18.600 It's a transfer of losses, even if we take the SpaceX IPO. Right. There's a lot of people who are going to lose in their 401ks. And this is their pensions in their 401ks. The losses are being transferred to them because the big banks don't want to take the losses. It's this transfer of losses onto the lesser people that I think we really need to consider and start demanding that people in positions of privilege take more losses on themselves.

01:08:44.920 I mean, it's just making me think of Trump and Melania's or Donald and Melania's meme coins and concentrate that all the losses are absorbed by the base of the party.

01:08:56.180 And yes, we're better than them.

01:08:59.460 What, by the way, I didn't ask you the obvious question.

01:09:01.840 What was the trigger that made you say, I got to get the hell out of here?

01:09:05.740 There were many things.

01:09:06.940 I always say it was cumulative, like I saw so much harm, but I didn't I didn't have the coconuts to leave.

01:09:12.000 I didn't have the courage to leave.

01:09:13.580 but then once you're given an offer like a 40 million dollar NDA and you're looking at your

01:09:19.460 two kids who you want nothing but the best for and you have to say like what am I gonna have

01:09:24.980 integrity right now or am I gonna have a Birkin and so I had to make that decision I'm like am I 0.96

01:09:31.940 gonna buy a house for my kids or am I gonna struggle and do the right thing and I decided 0.99

01:09:37.220 to struggle and do the right thing so that was the moment that I'm like okay well once I say no to

01:09:42.340 this. Because once you say no to a man like Elon, it's as if you never said yes, you know. So I knew

01:09:49.020 what the effects of telling him no were going to be. Have you been surprised by people in the

01:09:57.120 movement that have remained loyal to you that are quietly have your back that are cheering you on?

01:10:04.140 No. And there's a lot. I've been surprised by more of the people who have resonated with what

01:10:09.120 I'm saying and said they really want to speak out. But I'll tell you, a lot of these people can't

01:10:13.940 because of NDAs, because of their employment agreements with Fox, because of their agreements

01:10:19.380 with various companies. And that needs to be addressed. If we want more people to speak out,

01:10:24.680 there has to be, this has to be addressed, this proliferation of NDAs, and we have to protect

01:10:31.380 them. Who's been the most vicious to you? Who are you really disappointed that you're like,

01:10:37.480 I mean, they're really taking it out on you for, quote, unquote, selling out or something or, you know, turning your back to the movement.

01:10:44.760 I think I'm most disappointed in Elon.

01:10:48.580 Yeah.

01:10:50.580 Well, on that note.

01:10:57.840 You could substitute that response to many questions.

01:11:02.420 um but but no actually you know i will say i'm most disappointed in in myself i'm most disappointed

01:11:10.040 regret who you were i'm most disappointed that i didn't have courage sooner and i would encourage

01:11:15.960 anyone who's still in that to to not let a a decade of of uh regret pile up

01:11:23.800 uh i mean it's uh it's it's a mature thing to say and uh and uh and it's and it look it's

01:11:32.980 you know i i i i wish you the best and i hope you don't feel exploited by folks like myself

01:11:38.960 on the other side of this that will obviously be chasing you to to sort of exploit the other side

01:11:44.900 um and stay true to what you really believe having an open conversation because i could

01:11:49.580 have come on here and just been, you know, thank you, governor. But there were things that I wanted

01:11:54.160 to ask you about that just with my personal experience with tech and AI that I've come to

01:12:00.120 the understanding that, okay, if you're going to do it, make sure that you're honest and you don't

01:12:05.320 hold anything back. So I appreciate you for being open with those conversations and concerns as well.

01:12:11.920 I appreciate it. I appreciate highlighting, I mean, just a new age of transparency and

01:12:16.820 accountability, but also what's so opaque and we're not even looking at in terms of the rules

01:12:21.400 and regulations and truth and trust. And so this has been a fun conversation, Ashley. I really

01:12:26.720 appreciate you taking the time and good luck with everything. And thanks again for joining us.

01:12:32.460 Thank you.

01:12:33.440 Thank you.

01:12:39.760 Hey guys, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe.

01:12:41.900 I'm Kevin.

01:12:42.480 And I'm Nick. And guess what?

01:12:43.700 We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas.

01:12:47.640 We invented a podcast?

01:12:49.020 Well, we didn't invent it.

01:12:50.120 We just contributed to it.

01:12:51.380 We're the first people to do podcasts.

01:12:53.220 We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions.

01:12:56.920 Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but you know.

01:12:59.560 Tired and sick.

01:13:00.360 Tired and sick.

01:13:01.260 Listen to Hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:13:06.320 Just listen.

01:13:06.880 We don't care where you hear it.

01:13:08.480 Last night, a blown call changed the game.

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01:13:16.420 That's where Sports Slice comes in.

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01:13:18.740 In every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

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01:13:33.420 Listen to Sports Slice on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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01:13:44.040 Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is.

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01:13:54.640 I'm Akilah Hughes, and Rebel Spirit Season 2 is about both of those things.

01:13:58.800 As I was watching these statues come down, I was thinking about what it meant that I grew up in a majority Black city,

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01:14:06.840 Listen to Rebel Spirit Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:14:13.460 Can superstars even exist the way they used to?

01:14:15.780 2016 was sort of that last era of monoculture

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01:14:49.260 This is an iHeart Podcast.

01:14:51.740 Guaranteed human.

This is Gavin Newsom - June 04, 2026

And, This Is Former MAGA Influencer Ashley St. Clair

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