00:01:22.060Hey, this is Chuck from Stuff You Should Know, and we're submitting our most science-y episodes for your peer review with our new Stuff You Should Know doing science playlist.
00:01:42.880So, distill a nice pot of tea, everybody.
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00:01:57.540Can superstars even exist the way they used to?
00:02:00.2602016 was sort of that last era of monoculture where we still consume things in community.
00:02:08.980Everybody wanted to be Beyonce at that point.
00:02:11.060I don't think we'll ever see another Rihanna.0.71
00:02:13.640What does it mean to be black and eat in America?0.63
00:02:16.880You will never make me feel bad for being a black girl, for being a black American girl, ever.
00:02:21.100From music to food to the conversations shaping black culture right now, Therapy for Black Girls is bringing it all to the mic.
00:02:27.260Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:03:01.600Yeah, so, you know, Simpsons and Family Guy, like, that whole universe.
00:03:06.940That's where I was for five minutes, then started acting.
00:03:10.020and uh i was always like there came a point where i had done the umpteenth doritos commercial before
00:03:16.000i was like i i'm not sure i'm feeling fulfilled i'm not sure this is it and there must have been
00:03:20.480one doritos commercial that really stood out yeah is it yeah not not not so much there was a cars i
00:03:26.800mean like man it's i mean it's so embarrassing there was a cars.com commercial there was i mean
00:03:31.480it was just so not not didn't didn't feed my soul the way i needed it well is that you're saying
00:03:38.120that because they're not advertising on your three podcasts? Is that it? Yeah. They can redeem
00:03:42.600themselves by advertising on my podcast now. But it not only, it's not even feeding the soul. You
00:03:47.160got to feed the, yeah, not just the pocketbook. You got to kept fed, right? I mean, it's a tough
00:03:51.560business. It is. And, uh, and look, I mean, I think for people for whom that is the thing that
00:03:58.580they have to do, then, then it's awesome. I mean, just like the hustle is great. The industry is
00:04:04.940great. I mean, even now, I mean, you know, we've spoken about this at length, um, in the context
00:04:09.740of the TV and film tax credit. Like I love the TV industry. It is, it is the, like LA is the
00:04:17.120coolest entertainment, uh, industry town that there is. And, and we export culture to the rest
00:04:22.900of the world. And that is awesome. Yeah, no. And you bet you have been a huge champ. Every time we
00:04:27.380get together, you invariably, it doesn't matter what we're talking about on this subject, you
00:04:31.820always end and what the hell are you doing we need more correct support yeah los angeles and0.99
00:04:37.180uncap the fucking tax credit and you that's all you keep saying uncap the fucking tax credit yeah0.98
00:04:42.560that's your mono but but but i love the industry and i love the people that work in it and they're0.99
00:04:46.900storytellers and uh and we're just so lucky to live in a state where this economy is uh is is
00:04:54.440bolstered by by that industry no i agree with you and by the way for the record anyone listening we
00:04:58.820more than doubled the film tax credit in last year and seen real results we're seeing actual
00:05:03.780real results including the iconic bay watch back on the beaches of southern california shout out
00:05:09.940to my buddy stephen amell those guys are and when's that thing coming out shortly right uh i don't
00:05:14.700know i don't know but i do know this i'll be i'll be i'll be watching is it coming out sooner than
00:05:18.900your new book july 14th right that's it i love it so the day after how to wield power i'm going to
00:05:26.960talk about that in a post-Trump world this coming off your best seller shameless number one yeah
00:05:32.460in the new york times bestseller list not bad which came out what two years ago that was almost
00:05:37.820uh that was like yeah a year and 11 months ago so i gave myself five minutes before i started
00:05:42.260this is a quick read not a five minute read but it's a quick read it's very familiar
00:05:49.200and i love how you sequenced it and i was joking with you right before we got on this podcast i
00:05:55.020said, you know, I've never done this. I never have notes. I always read. I'm always quote unquote
00:05:59.720prepared mostly. But rare do I actually put out in sequence my thoughts in terms of the interview
00:06:08.000because I love how it starts. I love the prologue. I love the epilogue. And we can get to those two
00:06:13.120things and the 10 plus chapters in between. But I love how you start, which is I think how a lot
00:06:17.880of us, and I'm not, I mean this, like a lot of us long for the day of that opening scene in January
00:06:25.6202029, new president of the United States behind the Resolute desk. Donald Trump contrasts that
00:06:33.100scene, a little Hollywood here, down in Mar-a-Lago, stressed, frustrated, bewildered that J.D. Vance
00:06:40.880has just lost the presidency. And the advisors for the new president of the United States walk
00:06:45.820into the Oval Office, first moments, and this ongoing dialogue, this debate, this dialectic,
00:06:53.500as some have referred to it, between the forces, Ron Brownstein refers to it, of restoration and
00:06:59.580the forces of transformation. And that frames the opening of your book.
00:07:06.520And I think that's, I appreciate that. And I think that, you know, we kind of had the
00:07:12.360opportunity to live through the former. I mean, that's what Joe Biden's presidency was. It was a
00:07:16.840return to the status quo. And I think that that's honestly what people felt like we needed at that
00:07:22.520moment. But in retrospect, it landed us where we are right now. Like if we don't take action to
00:07:30.780really feed, I think, the appetite of what people were looking for, somebody else is going to fill
00:07:36.540that vacuum. And that's what Trump did. And granted, he wasn't doing it in, you know, he had
00:07:42.560no intention of actually fulfilling any of his promises. He knew the things to say, even though
00:07:47.160it wasn't in good faith. It was just completely disingenuous. He understood what people were
00:07:52.180thirsty for. And that was that sense of transformation. But this did come in the
00:07:57.800aftermath of Joe Biden's return to normalcy. And you can't fault him for trying that. And in fact,
00:08:04.540I think that's what a lot of people were looking for in that moment. But but, you know, there are still a lot of people who left that presidency disillusioned with politics because a return to normalcy and kind of a retrenchment in the status quo meant that that it would be kind of a reversion to these institutions that hadn't been working for people in the past.
00:08:24.780And people can't afford, I mean, you've heard the statistics that people, you know, 40% of Americans can't afford a $400 emergency. And so when you go back to a system that created that environment, then obviously a lot of people are going to be restless.
00:08:40.380So building back better is not going to be the brand, is not going to be the motto moving forward.
00:08:48.220No, and in fact, Trump is instructive in that way that we don't have to be like these institutions are not so sacred as we've been led to believe that that the parliamentarian and the filibuster and our norms and our processes are not so sacrosanct that we can't barrel through these things.
00:09:08.020Trump's doing it in a way that benefits himself
00:09:31.940Is not the preservation of the filibuster
00:09:33.340It's making sure that people have healthcare
00:09:35.240It's making sure that people have jobs
00:09:36.760making sure that we have a just economy. It's making sure that that this country works for
00:09:41.180people, for regular people. And I think that that gets lost somewhere along the way.
00:09:46.360So I love. So you open the book, you sort of frame that debate, this ongoing debate that
00:09:49.980we continue to have and this sort of contrast from one election to the next election. You're
00:09:53.960always looking for something that's the opposite of what you necessarily have. And so Biden sort
00:09:58.200of fit that bill as it relates to the chaos and the incompetency of Donald Trump. Of course,
00:10:03.460that same argument made, the chaos encompassing Donald Trump is now, you know, has been sort of
00:10:08.520exponentially more exposed. And then we may be looking for, you know, a warm blanket. But we'll
00:10:15.320get to that. You don't make that case. You're for the transformation. You're for more of an
00:10:19.780insurgency mindset. And you lay out chapter by chapter what you're thinking. You start with this
00:10:25.640notion, though, that that thinking has been going back decades and decades. And Democrats can't just
00:10:31.040be situational in their mindset around that debate. And we have to be more sustainable and
00:10:35.840understand as you open up chapter one, the long game, that one of the residents who lived here,
00:10:42.220Ronald Reagan, Nixon, Bush, others, they understood the long game. It was a half-century
00:10:48.760project. Cato, Heritage, others. Talk more about that. Yeah. And I think Republicans are really
00:10:55.860effective at laying out these plans that may not instantly gratify them, but but but have been shown
00:11:04.240to be really effective over the years anyway. I mean, even the redistricting project that
00:11:08.460Republicans started, I think, in 2010. I mean, we are right now in 2026 and watching the Voting
00:11:15.920Rights Act, Section two of the Voting Rights Act, having fallen and Republicans just redrew 12 more
00:11:21.080seats. I mean, this is this is the natural conclusion of a project that is 16 years in the
00:11:26.100making. And and it always feels like we're trying to catch up at least a decade behind. So like we
00:11:33.920see these projects play out and and it's just a constant game of catch up. And so, you know,
00:11:38.800it's going to take a lot of a lot of swift action, which is not necessarily intuitive for a party
00:11:44.160that relies on commissions and is very risk-averse and, you know, would rather defer to strongly
00:11:53.740worded letters than any serious action. But I think, again, like going back to that main thesis
00:11:59.000of the book, it's going to take kind of barreling through a lot of these barriers that we've erected0.98
00:12:04.680for ourselves that we view as so sacrosanct to kind of get some shit done. And then you make0.92
00:12:10.900that contrast by opening the second chapter, which you talk about the wrong game, is those
00:12:15.780instincts that you describe in, you know, quasi-critical terms. I mean, you're hardly an
00:12:21.300indictment, but some frustration that Obamacare becomes Romneycare, this notion of the third way
00:12:27.220and Clinton, that all the efforts to reach out to the other side, even by Obama himself,
00:12:32.320you know, sort of this Tea Party framework, and, you know, ends up biting our hand.
00:12:36.700so there there is this constant sense and it's not so much an indictment because because look i i i do
00:12:44.880i i applaud the efforts of these people and you have to remember like this was happening in context
00:12:48.560and so we look at a lot of this stuff in the past from the the mindset and the framework of today
00:12:54.100and it wasn't it you know it wasn't as bad as it was today and so um and and obama's whole thing
00:13:01.820was like you could you know we're not red states or blue states but the united states and so you
00:13:05.680can't blame him for trying for offering a good faith effort to try and and and reach across the
00:13:11.220aisle but my my contention here is is that like by conferring goodwill to the other side in hopes
00:13:19.020that they will um that they will reciprocate it's a fool's errand at this point like what do we get
00:13:25.820for it what do we get for for listening to mitch mcconnell when he says okay this is our new rule
00:13:32.000about the Supreme Court. You can't nominate somebody in an election year until the moment
00:13:38.300that they have the opportunity to do that. And it's not a year out, it's five minutes out. Votes
00:13:42.940are already being cast. And so, you know, we've allowed ourselves to be fooled so many times
00:13:48.140thinking that, okay, these, you know, if only we just give them this one, then they'll owe us one.
00:13:54.940And we never, you know, cash in on that. We're never able to cash in on that. And so instead
00:14:00.240of trying to be good governing partners with a team that will never reciprocate, that never
00:14:08.000wants to offer it back to you, maybe we just figure out what we need to do to win moving
00:14:13.920forward. And that's it. And that will also offer a deterrent effect, because right now it's easy
00:14:18.380for them to do it knowing that they have a weak opponent. It's not dissimilar to what Trump is
00:14:22.560doing with ABC, for example. You know, George Stephanopoulos, they have this bogus defamation
00:14:28.360lawsuit against George Stephanopoulos, ABC says, you know what, let's just let's give him this one.
00:14:32.860Let's settle for 16 million dollars. And now we see, you know, multiple other lawsuits. Now Donald
00:14:39.740Trump is announcing that he's suing ABC over the reflecting pool. And so it just never ends. You
00:14:45.880gain nothing by conferring goodwill to bad faith negotiating partners. And and so, you know, I just
00:14:52.280think that we need to, to leave, to leave that mentality, which was exercised by Clinton and
00:14:59.720Biden and Obama in the past, because those Republican parties are, are, are parties of
00:15:06.320the past anyway. And that's a point you make that it's not the old Republic. It's not your mom and
00:15:10.140dad's Republican party. It's not Ronald Reagan's Republican party. I mean, hell, even that, even
00:15:13.120the old Republican party wasn't willing to negotiate in good faith. Oh, there's that too.
00:15:16.700So we tend to be a little more nostalgic, don't we, about all this? I mean, I mean, yes, like,
00:15:20.560We were at the Obama Center. Everyone saw George Bush. We all started applauding. We longed for the good old days of Iraq war.
00:15:27.720Who would have guessed that George W. Bush would basically be the modern equivalent of, I don't even know, Ed Markey over here.0.99
00:15:39.880Ed Markey. We could get an Ed Markey, a climate champion, which we're going to close with near the end of the New Green Deal.
00:15:47.400But you talk about checks and balances in the context of referencing Congress, McConnell, et cetera, this notion, this romantic notion, back to your fundamental theory of the case here with this book, of a system of co-equal branches of government, popular sovereignty, the rule of law, and in more of a traditional construct that Democrats have sort of played under.
00:16:07.940But you opened Chapter 3 saying blank checks and balances, that they just don't exist.
00:16:19.180Executive power seems almost absolute.
00:16:23.380The Speaker of the House, I don't even mean Johnson, I think is his name, Thune is attempting to at least assert as one does and then immediately is complicit in Trump's agenda.
00:16:37.540But so tell me what you're, you know, what you get into a lot of structural questions and answers around filibuster and strategies as it relates to, you mentioned the parliamentarian, sort of disabusing ourselves with all the status quo.
00:16:52.940Yeah. And I think, I mean, you know, that is one of the things that I've spoken about for years and years and years.
00:16:58.160And again, I think that there is a deference to, to like good government institutions and you can't blame. Well, I mean, at this point now you have to, you have to see the writing on the wall, but I understand the proclivity for, for, for Democrats as these institutions are being torn down, that your reflex is you have to protect them.
00:17:20.060But, but again, I think that it's, it's, you know, a misguided effort because the reaction to Republicans tearing this stuff down can't be, okay, we have to preserve them exactly as they are. It has to be, it has to be just an understanding that they are not sacrosanct, but how can we fix them so that they're better? How can we fix them so they actually work for people?
00:17:41.240How can we listen to what people like about what the Republicans are doing right now and use those lessons?
00:17:49.660And it's not, you know, there might be one or two things in there, but like use some of the lessons that we're learning more broadly.
00:17:55.380So again, it is just this idea of not having deference to kind of the status quo just as a reflex to push back against what Republicans are doing, which is tear it down.
00:18:07.680So we have to stand it up and preserve it in amber and make sure that nothing changes.
00:18:13.080No, and I think it's one of the most effective things that the Republican Party has been able to do because they put us right there on the defense, defending, frankly, something that may have outlived its usefulness.
00:18:23.260But we haven't painted necessarily a positive alternative, what we would do differently.
00:18:26.700So we're in this fight and flight and we're constantly, again, on the defense, on our heels.0.54
00:18:30.580Let me ask you, like if if we were looking at what government more broadly could look like in 2029 and beyond, if you were to think of this with a doge mindset, minus all of the minus all of the graft, grift and corruption, what does it look like?0.87
00:18:49.620A reckless-taking approach to reform, not a reckless approach to reform.
00:18:54.160And that's a very – you do things with people, not to people.
00:19:07.240And we saw all that paperwork stacked up with Al Gore out there in the White House, not the UFC set, but the White House filled with papers and regulations and reforms that were advanced.
00:19:16.800We reduced the ongoing cost of government. It was more effective, more efficient. And we focused on outcomes. We actually focused on customers. They used the word customer service, which offended some people. Strategic plans, which people thought was a little offensive, but they used a more business-like approach to governance, not necessarily being a business because they're not in the business of doing the job of a business. And so I think that sort of that's the contour. That's the approach you start to build off of.
00:19:44.300I mean, that's been a major theme in California because, look, this is a true blue state.
00:19:49.260There are, I think, a lot of really good faith efforts to do a lot of good things as it relates
00:19:55.680to the environment, as it relates to protecting tenants and consumers. But eventually, you get
00:20:00.840to the point where it becomes more of a barrier, more of an obstacle to growth and progress.
00:20:06.600Now you're getting a liberalism that builds. Now you're getting into results that people can see.
00:20:10.720if they can't see it they're not going to believe it right biggest mistakes we had they need to see
00:20:14.740it it's a proof of concept right and and so i'm more so that all the you know just the process
00:20:21.080and paralysis by analysis and as you say quote-unquote good government inclusive government
00:20:26.160oh it's wonderful it's enlightened yeah but there's a time value not just to money there's
00:20:31.440a time value to confidence yeah we're lose this republic because we've lost people's confidence
00:20:36.200that we can deliver real and visible results.
00:20:40.660And one example of that, like on a national level,
00:20:43.080is I think when the Biden administration
00:20:45.760was able to negotiate lower drug prices on 10 drugs,
00:20:49.360and I think it wasn't going to kick in
00:20:52.080And inherently, that was going to fall
00:20:54.380beyond the timeframe of Biden's administration.
00:20:59.140And so you are, like, it is built into the process
00:21:02.400that somebody else is going to get credit for it.
00:21:04.540Chips and Sides Act, the infrastructure bill.
00:21:06.040all these things. They're not easy. Localism's determinative. At the end of the day,
00:21:09.500the federal vision is realized locally. So let's multiply that. 50 states, California,
00:21:14.56058 counties, 476 cities, jurisdictions within each one of those. You have regional agencies
00:21:19.820and bodies. So yeah, getting that ultimate charging station built after the bill was passed.
00:21:26.780Yeah, that has a lag time. I'm sorry, it just does. Right now, Trump is taking advantage of
00:21:31.020all that. He decides and picks and chooses, a la carte. Don't like the wind things,
00:21:35.040but i like these other things uh and obviously the cornyism that comes from that determination
00:21:39.960but i'm not going to let you off the uh the hook here because you talk about checks and balances
00:21:44.020and reforms i want to go back to some you're promoting and i and i i i'm out there i have
00:21:49.600the same instincts but i want to challenge you on some concerns this notion of the filibuster
00:21:54.500interesting thune himself yeah is happy about having the courts and you make this point you
00:22:01.720You get the courts with a simple majority, but we have to have filibuster and all the things Democrats seem to support, which is gun control, immigration, abortion, climate, all these things.
00:22:10.420So I guess that status quo ante kind of works for him.0.98
00:22:13.620But you're like, we're going, enough of this bullshit with the filibuster.0.98
00:22:19.060But what about that knife that will be sharpened when Republicans take back power, even if we enjoy the situational power?
00:22:29.660So we're going to prevent ourselves from advancing legislation that's going to help people for fear of Republicans potentially abusing their power when they get it.0.98
00:22:39.400I mean, they're abusing their power right right fucking now.0.96
00:22:48.560So at this point, you can either do what you got to do to actually deliver for people if we're lucky enough to take power so that they can see that it's actually worth it to cast their ballot for Democrats.
00:22:58.520or we can just sit there with our tail between our legs and say, oh, well, you know, we wouldn't
00:23:03.860want to give them a weapon to use in the future because then we might see what it's like to have
00:23:07.120Republicans abuse the levers of government. It's like we're there. Toothpaces out of the tube.
00:23:11.780Ah, you've won the argument. By the way, talk about toothpicks out of tube. Again,
00:23:15.920back to Ronald Reagan. I mean, this is his own old resonance. So much of the environmental
00:23:21.200authorities that we've enjoyed go back to Ronald Reagan, the creation of the California Air
00:23:25.420Resource Board in 1967, tailpipe emission standards, regulating, dare I say, pollution
00:23:32.120that comes, its origin story, out of California, Republican administration, codified by a
00:23:37.760Republican by the name of Richard Nixon, 1970, and the Clean Air Act at a federal level.
00:23:43.920And the parliamentarian had held the line on what they referred to as a Congressional
00:23:50.620Review Act. And Thune just gave it a middle finger and Ronald Reagan himself a middle finger.
00:23:56.120They don't play by any set of rules. They play by their own rules, which is the point
00:24:01.600you just made. Their abuse of power is jaw dropping. So I deeply respect the counter
00:24:09.760argument you just made. But as a purist and a traditionalist, it's hard to sort of disrupt
00:24:16.080the cooling the idea of the senate was supposed to be something different cooling yeah the hot
00:24:22.260headedness of the you know the the house of representatives it was supposed to but you're
00:24:27.700arguing you know look at you you look at ted you want to convince us that it's a a cooling saucer
00:24:33.300that's the ted cruz that that's that's your that's your level-headed uh it's like that's the
00:24:37.660pushback we're gonna then move on to the next chapter no no uh untouchables because here's
00:24:43.340Everyone's thinking, well, why the hell are they talking about the courts?
00:24:46.720So you open up, you talk about blank checks and balances, well said.
00:24:50.940And then this notion of the untouchables.
00:26:11.080Again, they kept the court at eight seats because they wanted to keep Merrick Garland off the court. That was almost a year. So we have very recent precedent for Republicans changing the composition of the court to suit them politically.
00:26:22.680now imagine we're fortunate enough to have a democratic president democratic house democratic
00:26:28.980senate senate we we get some legislation passed which already unto itself is a a herculean task
00:26:36.540now we have this rogue branch of government which is you know not look you look at samuel
00:26:42.640and clarence thomas these are not uh these are not you know uh these these you know apolitical
00:26:49.500neutral arbiters of the law. This is Jim Jordan in a suit, right? In a robe, I should say.
00:26:59.680I assume, I mean, that would be a hell of a thing to see.
00:27:02.460So, you know, with the composition of the court as it stands right now,
00:27:07.580they have a permanent veto over any and all legislation that Democrats could put forward.
00:27:13.380And so we do all of this work and yet opt to leave in place just by virtue of our respect for norms and precedent, a 6-3 conservative court that can and absolutely will strike down anything that doesn't comport with their political ideology.
00:27:29.660I mean, this is a court that has just struck down the voting, the entirety of the Voting Rights Act. This is a court that that will, in deference to their party, create provisions of the Constitution out of whole cloth, like this idea that the president can act with impunity as it relates to criminal prosecution, that will ignore the plaintext of the Constitution, like Section 3 of the 14th Amendment that prevents someone from running for federal office again if they've engaged in.
00:27:59.660or given aid or comfort to those who've engaged in insurrection. Donald Trump did that. That's
00:28:03.380not just me saying it. It is the Colorado Supreme Court, for example. And so they make it up as they
00:28:09.940go. And so while we're making this whole argument about not just sitting on our laurels and hoping
00:28:16.380that, you know, just by virtue of the arc of the moral universe bending toward justice, you know,
00:28:22.980through osmosis or whatever it is that it's just going to happen good. Like the arc of the moral
00:28:30.940universe doesn't just bend toward justice. You have to push it. And so I think this is a perfect
00:28:35.780example of where you push it. Leaving intact this court just out of deference to stasis or the
00:28:44.780status quo gives them a permission structure to strike down anything that all of these people
00:28:52.340have worked to get by showing up and voting Democrats into office. And, you know, you
00:28:58.580campaign on climate change and health care and a just economy and everything that gets
00:29:04.880people out of bed, everything that makes people believe in politics. But you know that you're
00:29:08.640just leaving intact voluntarily a veto for the other side with people who you know are
00:29:14.580not neutral arbiters of the law, people like Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas. And so if
00:29:19.580we're if we're adhering to this vision of of recognizing that we have one shot here to really
00:29:26.640deliver for people like Republicans fumbled the ball they they 2024 was an incredible reversal
00:29:33.700of not just not just political alignments but but culture I mean we're not like when I was in
00:29:41.600college you regardless of geography regardless of socioeconomic status you were for Obama if
00:29:49.560If you were a young person, like it would be impossible to it would be social suicide if you're like, oh, no, I'm a I'm a I'm a John McCain guy.
00:29:56.040I'm a George W. Bush guy. Yeah. Yeah. And and you were not in the cool club.
00:30:00.540No. And to watch Democrats have fumbled it to the point where it actually became more like became cooler, became more culturally beneficial to be a Republican is a is a coup for them.
00:32:59.900unless unless correct and frankly they could and i would be i would be i would be surprised if they
00:33:06.800didn't but but we'll see how how committed you know how committed they are to trying to do that
00:33:13.280again like they have a majority and so and so i'm hoping and praying that it doesn't happen but
00:33:19.240that's again another that should be another impetus to to take serious reforms because
00:33:25.100otherwise we're looking at a supreme court that is not just six three but six three where we have
00:33:29.300a bunch of 40-year-old justices. So here's my prediction. You will be on this book tour,
00:33:33.500and this will be the most focused part of your conversation with folks this chapter.
00:33:38.780You know, I've been asked what is the first thing that the left needs to do when it takes
00:33:44.160power again. And I have said the first thing that needs to happen is court reform and court
00:33:48.400expansion. Yeah. Look, you're getting me closer to your point of view. And you challenged me. I
00:33:54.000I know we were talking, I was on your pod down in L.A. a few months ago, and this notion of 13 and then just looking at the district courts as that framework sort of anchor the old school, the ember of a traditional, you know.
00:34:06.600I mean, look, for a guy who recognized the urgency of the moment with Prop 50, and in fact, the only democratic state to have successfully redrawn its maps ahead of 2026, that is what I think is the natural evolution for somebody like you.
00:34:27.580I'm with you. I'm done winning arguments. We got to win. And we got to consolidate power. And again, this book is about power. The subheadline, again, how to wait. I mean, this is it.
00:34:36.600wield power yeah uh without it it's all bullshit yeah i mean it's academic bullshit and it's0.97
00:34:42.680frustrating to becoming more and more frustrating but i want to go back you talked about the long0.80
00:34:45.860arc in the moral universe it's interesting that there's a beautiful arch at uh sculpture
00:34:50.640sculpture at the obama center yeah um and the history of that quote is not a martin luther
00:34:56.840king quote it goes back well before and it's actually even more spectacular uh the context
00:35:01.820of the original quote, but it's all predicated on this notion of we the people, that we have
00:35:06.580agency, that we're not bystanders, we're not just, you know, future is not just something to
00:35:11.080experience, it's something to manifest. And you write, again, in the book about the importance
00:35:16.320of power of citizenship, this notion that we have the ability along the lines of gerrymandering
00:35:22.260to fix that once and for all, which is nationalized, independent redistricting,
00:35:27.760voting rights, et cetera. Talk to me more about what your investment of time and energy in this
00:35:34.500chapter represented. I mean, that is the basis of democracy. I think even as I advocate for
00:35:40.400Prop 50 here in California, as I advocate for it in Virginia, and I'm sure that they'll get it done
00:35:46.680as we head toward 2028. Back to the courts in Virginia. Right. But more broadly, I mean,
00:35:53.660as we look for it to be done in, you know, in New Jersey and Colorado, Illinois, Oregon,
00:35:59.320Washington, Maryland, so that we can counteract what's happening. I will concede it's a race to
00:36:04.820the bottom. What I'm saying more broadly, though, is that we can't be in a position to unilaterally
00:36:09.720disarm. But recognizing that it is a scourge on democracy, we do need to fix this. I mean,
00:36:16.940we need proper districts and real representation so that also we don't have the most extreme
00:36:24.380candidates running in these races because they're so fixed, depending on whether it's a red state
00:36:28.920or a blue state. And I think that we're losing large swaths of people. And that's bad for
00:36:32.760democracy. You don't create a healthy democracy by having R plus 72 districts or D plus 65
00:36:40.720districts where there's such a vast gap between the left and the right, where, yes, the extremes
00:36:49.280do proliferate and you lose so many people in the middle and they lose faith in government.
00:36:54.880And it's that vacuum of civic participation where demagogues can thrive. And we're seeing
00:37:01.160the fruits of that right now. I mean, this is what governance looks like when a demagogue has
00:37:06.800taken control. So even as I recognize or even as I advocate for for aggressive action to counteract
00:37:14.620what Republicans are doing, and as I'm proud to sit in a state, the only state that's gotten it
00:37:19.700done, I do think that that national reforms are desperately needed. What I won't abide is is is
00:37:27.160only one side doing it. And we've already seen that that's happened. I mean, California and New
00:37:33.360york are these democratic weapons we have redistricting commissions independent redistricting
00:37:37.680commissions in both meanwhile texas and florida are gerrymandering maps on top of previously
00:37:42.320gerrymandered maps so we can't do that anymore but but uh but yeah i do think that these national
00:37:48.700voting rights reforms are needed we need election day to be a holiday we need um fair maps so that
00:37:54.760people can can choose their their elected officials that best represent them and so that the the one
00:38:00.700party or another cannot scientifically engineer majorities in the House. And I think, you know,
00:38:07.720I think once we are in a position where the Supreme Court isn't a veto on anything and
00:38:13.620everything the Democrats put forward, we need something like the Freedom to Vote Act or a new
00:38:18.080Voting Rights Act. I mean, H.R. 1 was the most important piece of legislation that came about
00:38:22.600in the Biden era. And the fact that we didn't get it passed is, I think, a blight on
00:38:29.980on, on the party, frankly, even though it was, you know, it was Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin
00:38:35.820who refused to, uh, to eliminate the filibuster. And now look at the, like the notion that you
00:38:41.400can make the argument that we are in better shape because this, because the filibuster was
00:38:45.780preserved, uh, looking at the state of our democracy right now is, is I think the best
00:38:52.560argument for eliminating the filibuster moving forward. You cannot in good faith make the
00:38:56.680argument that we are in better shape right now because the filibuster is intact and we don't have
00:39:01.840hr1 fair point we also then don't have a bill that claims to be a voter id bill which is really
00:39:09.460a registration bill which is a pick your choose your vote i mean so how do you how do you square
00:39:13.900that again i mean you're never gonna it's never gonna be perfect and and you cannot refuse to
00:39:21.340wield power for fear of the other side abusing it when we're in a position where they're already
00:39:25.720abusing it. So yes, do you take a risk? Absolutely. But with that risk comes reward. And I think
00:39:32.280we're in a position where we need to take some action because time's up. We're losing democracy
00:39:40.420and we are not heading toward autocracy. We are there. We have a kleptocratic government. We are
00:39:46.080in a post-law society so long as you're a Republican or so long as you donate to Trump's
00:39:53.480campaign or have your mother donate to Donald Trump. I mean, that was one of the, I think the,
00:39:57.920one of the pardon recipients, his mom, onto a fundraiser at Mar-a-Lago. So like, again,
00:40:04.160we cannot refuse to wield power for fear of abuse in a society where abuse is rampant.
00:40:09.780Imperial presidency, not a king. Next chapter here. This notion of, you know, just, I mean,
00:40:18.140here's my biggest fear. You think I'm right or wrong? When Trump leaves and we go back
00:40:22.820to this notion of accountability. We're going to get to the accountability components of your
00:40:27.300argument. This imperial president who the Supreme Court, back to the Supreme Court,
00:40:32.600has basically sanctioned, has no liability whatsoever for acts that he's conducted as
00:40:37.740president of the United States. With no oversight in supine Congress, we've established that and
00:40:42.600the blank check imbalances that you write about effectively. He's going to pardon everyone around
00:40:50.300them. I mean, don't you think that they, I mean, literally everyone around them and they know that
00:40:56.680today. That's why they're complicit in the grift and the graft and the bullshit.0.99
00:41:02.200Mom, I want to sign up for soccer and lacrosse. Ooh, maybe hip hop. Actually robotics sounds fun1.00
00:41:08.440too. Piano? No, no, no. Drums. Activities change, but eggs stay the same. Packed with protein and
00:41:14.680nutrients. They're the perfect fuel for any activity. And thanks to dedicated Ontario egg
00:41:19.260farmers and the eqa mark you can count on them to always be fresh local and held to the highest
00:41:24.420standards is there such a thing as competitive scrambled egg eating i'd rule at that egg
00:41:29.680farmers of ontario get cracking hey i'm hoda kotby host of the podcast joy 101 with hoda kotby
00:41:35.740together we're going to have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating
00:41:40.580people like when actress olivia munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges i've gone
00:41:46.220through breast cancer and then help my mother through breast cancer and that was more difficult.
00:41:50.400There's a lot of people who understand postpartum depression. I was not prepared for postpartum
00:41:54.200anxiety. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
00:42:00.580get your podcasts. My first guest is Paris Houghton, Shakira, Luke and Yerin, Samira and Gracie.
00:43:09.400We're a variety show, and if you're looking for strong opinions, funny opinions about sports, entertainment, politics, pop culture, and whatever else catches my attention, then subscribe now.
00:43:21.280This kid, Jafar Jackson, is as good as Rami Malek, as Freddie Mercury, and it's as good as Timothee Chalamet, as Bob Dylan.
00:43:32.640And I say that with love and respect for both of those actors.
00:43:36.060And I don't know how many Oscar nominations they give out.
00:43:39.120I don't know if it's five, six for best actor.
00:43:41.880150% this kid Jafar Jackson should absolutely, positively get nominated for his portrayal as Michael Jackson.
00:43:50.760Listen to I Am Rappaport on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:45:25.780I mean, it's not like the Biden DOJ was going to do anything about it. And so that's how you encourage corruption, by telling these criminals that they can get away with it. And Trump is somebody who, if you do not hold him accountable, the only message he receives from that is, I can keep going. I can do it more and more and more. And we're living through that right now.
00:45:47.800I mean, we see these these stock trades that happened five minutes before he makes a major announcement that happens on a daily basis. We see, you know, the Don Jr. getting six hundred and twenty million dollar loans for the from the Defense Department for a company that he invested in five minutes earlier.
00:46:05.280I mean, it is just oozing with corruption.
00:46:08.600And they wouldn't do this if there were some consequences for their behavior, but they
00:47:23.260And selectively prosecuting people. We'll leave that one for another time. Con in economy.
00:47:30.940And I love this. You talk about the confidence track, which is interesting. I love the way you describe that, this notion of trade and tariffs and somehow building a sense of false confidence that he's got your back, Donald Trump.
00:47:42.640But that this economic agenda of Donald Trump's self-evidently, it's been a complete debacle.
00:47:50.280Yeah. We have seen the greatest con, I think, of this administration is the extent to which he presented himself as this economic populist.
00:48:00.340only for the moment he got into office, wielded every lever of government to benefit himself
00:48:06.900financially. And, you know, granted, he'll offer up some crumbs to the plebs out here.0.99
00:48:13.840But this administration works for one very specific, very narrow class of people.0.98
00:48:20.600And it is Trump's own family and his donors who are the principal beneficiaries of that.
00:48:28.360and uh i think that that is again the the biggest tragedy of what we've seen because there are
00:48:35.320people you know if anybody recognizes the pain that people are contending with in this country
00:48:40.540right now it is the guy who exploited that pain on the campaign trail i mean trump talked about
00:48:45.500about uh you may not know this word groceries it's a old-fashioned word we can we can look it up
00:48:52.100some people are using that word yeah yeah it's coming it's coming it's having a resurgence
00:56:23.000And so, you know, that's like this notion that we need to be heaping tax cuts onto corporations that are making record profits and gutting the highest marginal tax rates and starving us of federal tax revenue so that we can gut all of the programs that people rely on to survive.
00:56:48.260This is not a healthier America than we've had in the past.
00:56:52.340And I think it's directly correlated to the fact that we're not offering services to our own people. I mean, this isn't rocket science. You look at the happiest countries in the world, and those are countries that adequately tax their citizens, but also have programs that actually work.
00:57:10.200Not just taxing their citizens so that they can dump that money into the glut of the federal reserves that won't work for its own people or just heap more money into the military-industrial complex or whatever projects Trump and Republicans are engaged in right now that don't actually help regular people.
00:57:35.940So it's an it's an all the above approach. But I think it starts. I mean, look, California is a good example of a progressive tax structure. I know that you've spoken at length, including I think you did a great job in your in your debate against both Ron DeSantis and Sean Hannity on Fox News, where, you know, you you explain to them what a progressive tax structure is and how it's different from what they have in Texas and Florida.
00:58:03.940The most regressive two tax states in America that tax their low-wage workers more than we tax our high-wage workers.
01:02:14.200Yeah. From our expansion for health care for those without documentation. And I delivered that when I was mayor, not just as governor of California, promoted it. And I'm consistent. I lived up to my word. As imperfect as the system is, we also have done a lot in the single payer financing framework with $11 incident, not subsidizing costs, but lowering costs, doing a lot to address cost escalation with a new office of health care affordability and numeric goals and more transparency in this space, et cetera.
01:02:44.020I don't want to belabor the point. But again, when I think of the tectonic plate on Medicare
01:02:48.520and how you actually implement something of that consequence, I'm back into the political
01:02:56.560pragmatism of it and how you can sell it. And that goes, and forgive me, I'm answering your
01:03:02.240question by challenging you and getting back on track on the point you make about how you sell it
01:03:07.940and how it's communicated in a world of Brendan Carr's FCC.
01:03:13.380Every day in Ontario, a shelter worker will help someone fleeing violence.
01:03:17.500A child therapist will help a kid in crisis.
01:03:20.380A support worker will help a person with disabilities live a full life in their community.
01:03:24.740They and countless other workers show up for Ontarians every single day.
01:03:29.480But the Ford government's cuts have left workers with no choice but to go on strike.
01:03:33.740Today, workers are on the picket lines fighting for their communities and the services we all depend on.
01:03:38.940Now it's our turn to show up for them.
01:03:40.680Visit worthfightingfor.ca to show your support.
01:03:43.380Hey, I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb.
01:03:47.780Together, we're going to have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people,
01:03:53.080like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges.
01:03:57.600I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer,
01:10:01.020You cannot have more than 39% concentration of news, local programming,
01:10:09.300And he decided to waive that to provide 80% for a merger between Sinclair, those are the people that, I'm sorry, did not bring you, but took Kimmel off the air, and Tenga.
01:10:25.760I know we're talking about CBS, Paramount, CNN, but what's happening underneath to me seems even more insidious.
01:10:32.120so let's talk about the news you've been out on the forefront challenging that status quo
01:10:37.720building your three podcasts no lie with brian dylan calling one of the biggest the best uh
01:10:44.140had massive success you brought i mean you get how the hell you've had all these presidents on0.78
01:10:49.780your damn show biden came on the first youtube yeah i mean so i'm talking to the right guy0.94
01:10:54.900you wrote about it let's talk about communication let's talk about the news give me your overview0.99
01:11:00.180Yeah, I mean, look, we are in a in a precarious moment right now. But I do think that having some investment in left of center media is going to be essential, especially with the consolidation that we're seeing to deliver on all to deliver on all of this, especially with the consolidation that we're seeing right now.
01:11:19.380We have every we have every card stacked against us because not only is is does the not only has the right invested so much time, energy, resources and money in their openly Republican, openly conservative media.
01:11:43.260I mean, they have, you know, Daily Wire, Daily Caller, Megyn Kelly, Alex Jones, Tucker Carlson, OAN, Newsmax, Fox News.
01:11:52.440These are avowed Republican right-wing outlets.
01:11:55.680And the antidote to that for so long is, quote-unquote, liberal media that so often takes their cues from the right.
01:12:03.520I mean, how many cover stories did we have about Hillary's emails in the lead-up to the 2016 election?
01:12:07.780So I think that, you know, there has been this complacency on the left where we're like, okay, well, you know what, we deal in facts. And so we don't need to have any investment in independent media because we've got CNN, we've got ABC, we've got CBS.
01:12:25.900And now we're seeing that those those news outlets are only as durable as the leadership decides that they are. They're only as fair and neutral as the leadership decides that they are. And now with the leadership, obviously looking the way it does, suddenly, you know, the veil has been lifted.
01:12:42.880And so I think we need to, I mean, we talked earlier about the right investing decades in advance of what the left catches up on. We need to invest quickly, as quickly as humanly possible in left of center media and progressive media, avowedly so.
01:13:02.520And so, you know, I think that that's what I try to do.
01:13:06.620I mean, people ask, you know, they see a young guy who's interested in politics.
01:13:10.500So like, when are you going to run for office?
01:13:28.400But if you can't let people know what's going on, if you can't sell this stuff to people, if you can't message to people in a way that makes politics accessible, then you're not going to have any buy-in from the general population.
01:13:42.500And so I think that this is the most important frontier in politics.
01:13:46.440It's why I've dedicated my life to this space and the independent media space.
01:16:38.940So, I mean, look, and you can do it in a virtuous way, but you need the infrastructure there.
01:16:44.660And I think our, and this is not to knock legacy media because they're doing their jobs,
01:16:49.540but it is to knock, I think, the elected officials who for so long have refused to lend credence
01:16:57.580or validate a lot of the other media outlets in this ecosystem that would allow us to compete.
01:17:03.980You know, even during the campaign, during the 2024 campaign, and this is not to knock Kamala Harris, I'm sure that she didn't know what was going on, but like I had tried to have her sit down on my show and, you know, granted it was 107 day sprint, but to have her try to come on my show and there wasn't a lot of focus on independent media.
01:17:28.800And that was a moment where you've got 107 days, you've got a lot of, and I'm not even saying this for myself, you've got a lot of independent media outlets who are looking for validation and could have given her stamp of approval to a lot of people.
01:17:41.500Trump did. Trump made a lot of people. Diamond and Silk? You think Diamond and Silk are going to be anybody if they didn't have Trump? But you create these people by hugging them, by giving them your stamp of approval so that they can then go about doing the work, newly minted, thanks to you, the other 364 days a year.
01:18:03.720And that investment in independent media is so difficult to get because Democrats rely on legacy media outlets. Because for us, I think we see that they deal solely in facts. They have journalistic ethics. And that's not to say that independent media can't and shouldn't have both of those things because we should.
01:18:21.640But we have to recognize the media environment that we're operating in and to validate some of these independent media outlets and these content creators so that they can go ahead and do the work. And these are people who have a perspective, like a progressive perspective. This is not you know, I don't operate in the same way CNN does.
01:18:40.740I can come out and say I want to see Medicare for all. I want to see an effort to combat climate change. I want to see a more just economy and a more progressive tax structure and whatever it may be. But we need that. We need that so that we can use that to talk to broader audiences. And I think that that has been missing for so long.
01:19:05.660And has it been missing or are we missing something? I mean, I was, I did. We won't remember it. 20 people that watched me, maybe. My first Gavin Newsom show was on current TV. I broke a hell of a lot of news, by the way. That was back then when I was, the Google glasses, Elon Musk first drive. I drove in the studio with him and damn brand new Tesla.
01:19:33.360there was all kind but but we didn't break through we didn't build an audience ultimately0.97
01:19:38.000purchased by al jazeera uh gore did fine uh uh and uh i was there with uh jennifer granholm and
01:19:45.160she had a show right after me and she was our marquee star yeah she had a great show uh but
01:19:50.540it was we didn't break through um there's been efforts fits and starts in the past what is it
01:19:55.600about the sort of progressive democratic even the pragmatic pragmatic frame why aren't we are we we
01:20:01.440lack humor uh we lack hubris uh are we less entertaining what's what's been the brand
01:20:10.520problem i mean why the hell are or are we just we already have it because we have msnbc we have
01:20:18.100cnn so we don't do things i think in in large part it's that it's that there just was never
01:20:24.060any um there was never any feeling that we needed to invest in any of this stuff in a real way
01:23:45.560Yeah, the National Popular Oak has been for years.
01:23:47.420And actually, that's a subject for another day, because there's actually some real shocking, real momentum in that space that needs to be illuminated more.
01:23:56.100But look, we're seeing this play out right now.
01:23:58.840As we speak, primary day in New York, right?
01:24:01.860Mondami versus Jeffries, that's the frame that everybody's using.
01:24:05.400And the left is enjoying that frame more than even the right.
01:28:51.300you know that that that would have uh that would that would be legacy creating uh look at how that's
01:28:56.540paid off i mean you you know we've spoken a lot throughout this conversation about about prop 50
01:29:02.640you can see how your approval rating went up in the aftermath of that and and the conversation
01:29:10.800around you know you running for president happened as the result of that and so i i what i what i
01:29:17.320don't understand is how people don't see cause and effect. I mean, like you look at Obama's,
01:29:23.380I mean, and granted Obama is, is a master at, at so many things. And so, and so back to
01:29:28.660communication. Correct. Uh, there, there is nobody like him. Um, but, but I think, you know,
01:29:34.480his willingness to take big swings and to try to bolster his legacy and to do something different
01:29:39.820as opposed to just being, uh, uh, like satisfied with some, you know, small incremental steps.
01:29:47.320You look at that and that should be instructive for the next generation of Democrats to say, what kind of a leader do I want to be? Do I want to expend political capital so that we can tinker around the edges? Or do I want to expend political capital so that I can be remembered for doing something transformational?
01:30:03.060And on that, I want to tie up the book because, you know, I was joking about, you referred to the Green New Deal and how loaded that term is.
01:40:29.020and I don't even want to get into the demerits or demerits
01:40:32.380of what they tried to do with this forensic thing,
01:40:35.040but what are your takeaways in the last election?
01:40:38.340some of it i think is is factors outside of our control i think that frankly any democrat who ran
01:40:50.320in an election cycle where inflation was bearing down to the extent that it was was going to lose
01:40:56.340certainly a democrat who you know wasn't willing to distance herself to the extent that i think
01:41:01.960she needed to from biden um because then then you own the economic environment that people are
01:41:09.520rebelling against i don't want to cut you off but i am curious how how do you do that you were
01:41:15.260standing right next to him as vice president yeah without back to news without creating your own
01:41:21.660hurricane cycle of news saying well where the hell were you why were you standing there applauding
01:41:25.780why didn't you say anything at the same time why didn't you contradict him up there uh on the stand
01:41:31.380Yeah. Look, I can't begin to imagine what it's like to have to be in a position where I'm disavowing my partner, the president of the United States, someone whose administration I'm continuing to serve in. But I think it's what needed to be done.
01:42:19.480And that was sort of the view argument. So this notion of inflation and the incumbency connection.
01:42:24.940I think also, you know, and I know that this one has been kind of pundited to death, but the specificity of the things that we're offering to people, this idea that, OK, if you are a first time home buyer who grew up, you know, in the northwestern section of the United States and you have two kids, both of them have brown hair, like you're eligible for this.
01:42:49.480alone. I mean, you know, it's I think we're in a moment where people are, again, so disillusioned
01:42:56.380with what government has to offer that if you're not looking at big transformative policies that
01:43:01.560people are desperate for, thirsting for, then you're going to miss the forest through the trees
01:43:05.900like that might have worked in a bygone era. But Trump has shown, again, that you can barrel
01:43:11.080through a lot of these institutions that Democrats continue to view as sacred. And and it's not going
01:43:18.420to be, you know, some first time homebuyer loan for some certain subset of people that's really
01:43:24.700going to be like, you know, 0.03 percent of the population, people are hurting out there. And so
01:43:29.980and so I think that I think that it needs to be a transformative look at at what is working in our
01:43:36.240politics and and what is not. And the Democratic Party wasn't ready or willing to do that. I know
01:43:42.600that this boils down into like, you know, it is a lot of corporate Democrats who want to preserve
01:43:47.340the status quo, who aren't willing to recognize the pain their constituents are contending with.
01:43:52.060That's a big part of it. I do think that, you know, when we talk about the brand problems in
01:43:57.320the party, this is not something that is going to be fixed with like a new logo. It's not something
01:44:01.860that's going to be fixed when we start Twitter accounts or YouTube channels for politicians.
01:44:08.460It's going to be fixed when we have politicians who are in office, who are willing to deliver
01:44:14.220for their constituents. That's how you fix the brand. You have to do it authentically and
01:44:18.520organically because we're in an era where people can see through that bullshit if it's not real.0.94
01:44:22.940So I'm not so worried about fixing the brand by hiring some branding company and making the logo0.97
01:44:29.680a better shade of blue. I couldn't agree with you more. You fix the brand by ushering in a new era
01:44:35.680of Democrats who, A, are willing to step aside once they turn 90 years old. Like, come on now.
01:44:41.300And B, who are willing to deliver for people and meet them where they are. And I think that that has to and will come organically. But it's got to do it soon. Because as I mentioned before, we are in a moment where we were given the gift of a second chance.
01:44:59.460And that doesn't happen often. And it only came as the result of the gross, negligent incompetence of this administration, that they took this generational realignment, one, with with pretty staggering numbers, took the House, the Senate, the White House, the popular vote, the judiciary.
01:45:17.120and because they are so corrupt, so greedy,0.93
01:45:44.880Couldn't agree with you more on all that.
01:45:46.120I want to close on this. A lot of folks talk about just turning the page. I skipped over
01:45:55.720your chapter on the DOJ. We discussed aspects of it. But this notion of accountability,
01:46:03.280is that part of when you talk about delivering? We also have to deliver in that respect.
01:46:09.680Yeah, a hundred percent. And I've wrestled with this a lot because, you know, in my mind, like the worst, the worst, I guess, perversion of what that could look like is, oh, you're just doing the same thing Trump is doing by going after their enemies.
01:46:28.160But I think in this case, if you don't quell the corruption, if you don't show that there are some consequences for corrupt behavior, then all you're doing is ensuring that these people continue to engage in corruption moving forward.
01:46:43.240And when you have a corrupt government, it inherently cannot work for regular people.
01:46:50.180We are living through a government that is engaged in so much corruption.
01:46:53.420People are sicker, hungrier, poorer than they were before.
01:46:57.340That is the natural consequence of corruption in government. You know, whether it's something as insignificant as a no-bid contract for a reflecting pool that had to be, you know, drained and redone to something even more significant as putting, you know, billions or trillions of dollars into companies that really enrich the president's family.
01:47:18.600Or where you have, you know, crypto coins that foreign nations are investing in.
01:47:23.780And in turn, Trump gives better deals to those countries because they're enriching him personally.
01:47:30.780I mean, all of this, you cannot have a healthy democracy, a functioning democracy that delivers for people if you're a corrupt government.
01:47:39.580And so you need to deliver accountability.
01:47:41.820And so in my mind, I'm like, okay, I don't want to become the thing that I'm railing against by saying you have to wield the DOJ effectively. But if you don't, this is what you get. And you need to send a message to people that there is zero tolerance for a lawless system because this is what lawlessness breeds.