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00:02:34.020 Brian, it's great you're joining us.

00:02:35.800 Thanks for having me.

00:02:36.380 Thanks for coming all the way up to Sacramento.

00:02:38.660 Well, you know, it's not the longest trip.

00:02:41.500 You're a Hollywood guy, right?

00:02:42.580 You're L.A., you're Mr. L.A.?

00:02:44.000 Yeah.

00:02:44.320 People forget you were an actor years ago.

00:02:46.300 Yeah, that's a good thing.

00:02:47.460 How did that, well, you know, was it that forgettable?

00:02:50.220 Yes, in fact, it was.

00:02:51.660 Seriously, when you got out of college, was that your, like, your dream?

00:02:53.920 It was.

00:02:54.400 I wanted to move out to Los Angeles and work in the entertainment industry.

00:02:57.820 I worked at Fox Broadcasting Company.

00:02:59.860 It was my first job.

00:03:00.840 It was your first, huh?

00:03:01.600 Yeah, so, you know, Simpsons and Family Guy, like, that whole universe.

00:03:06.940 That's where I was for five minutes, then started acting.

00:03:10.020 and uh i was always like there came a point where i had done the umpteenth doritos commercial before

00:03:16.000 i was like i i'm not sure i'm feeling fulfilled i'm not sure this is it and there must have been

00:03:20.480 one doritos commercial that really stood out yeah is it yeah not not not so much there was a cars i

00:03:26.800 mean like man it's i mean it's so embarrassing there was a cars.com commercial there was i mean

00:03:31.480 it was just so not not didn't didn't feed my soul the way i needed it well is that you're saying

00:03:38.120 that because they're not advertising on your three podcasts? Is that it? Yeah. They can redeem

00:03:42.600 themselves by advertising on my podcast now. But it not only, it's not even feeding the soul. You

00:03:47.160 got to feed the, yeah, not just the pocketbook. You got to kept fed, right? I mean, it's a tough

00:03:51.560 business. It is. And, uh, and look, I mean, I think for people for whom that is the thing that

00:03:58.580 they have to do, then, then it's awesome. I mean, just like the hustle is great. The industry is

00:04:04.940 great. I mean, even now, I mean, you know, we've spoken about this at length, um, in the context

00:04:09.740 of the TV and film tax credit. Like I love the TV industry. It is, it is the, like LA is the

00:04:17.120 coolest entertainment, uh, industry town that there is. And, and we export culture to the rest

00:04:22.900 of the world. And that is awesome. Yeah, no. And you bet you have been a huge champ. Every time we

00:04:27.380 get together, you invariably, it doesn't matter what we're talking about on this subject, you

00:04:31.820 always end and what the hell are you doing we need more correct support yeah los angeles and 0.99

00:04:37.180 uncap the fucking tax credit and you that's all you keep saying uncap the fucking tax credit yeah 0.98

00:04:42.560 that's your mono but but but i love the industry and i love the people that work in it and they're 0.99

00:04:46.900 storytellers and uh and we're just so lucky to live in a state where this economy is uh is is

00:04:54.440 bolstered by by that industry no i agree with you and by the way for the record anyone listening we

00:04:58.820 more than doubled the film tax credit in last year and seen real results we're seeing actual

00:05:03.780 real results including the iconic bay watch back on the beaches of southern california shout out

00:05:09.940 to my buddy stephen amell those guys are and when's that thing coming out shortly right uh i don't

00:05:14.700 know i don't know but i do know this i'll be i'll be i'll be watching is it coming out sooner than

00:05:18.900 your new book july 14th right that's it i love it so the day after how to wield power i'm going to

00:05:26.960 talk about that in a post-Trump world this coming off your best seller shameless number one yeah

00:05:32.460 in the new york times bestseller list not bad which came out what two years ago that was almost

00:05:37.820 uh that was like yeah a year and 11 months ago so i gave myself five minutes before i started

00:05:42.260 this is a quick read not a five minute read but it's a quick read it's very familiar

00:05:49.200 and i love how you sequenced it and i was joking with you right before we got on this podcast i

00:05:55.020 said, you know, I've never done this. I never have notes. I always read. I'm always quote unquote

00:05:59.720 prepared mostly. But rare do I actually put out in sequence my thoughts in terms of the interview

00:06:08.000 because I love how it starts. I love the prologue. I love the epilogue. And we can get to those two

00:06:13.120 things and the 10 plus chapters in between. But I love how you start, which is I think how a lot

00:06:17.880 of us, and I'm not, I mean this, like a lot of us long for the day of that opening scene in January

00:06:25.620 2029, new president of the United States behind the Resolute desk. Donald Trump contrasts that

00:06:33.100 scene, a little Hollywood here, down in Mar-a-Lago, stressed, frustrated, bewildered that J.D. Vance

00:06:40.880 has just lost the presidency. And the advisors for the new president of the United States walk

00:06:45.820 into the Oval Office, first moments, and this ongoing dialogue, this debate, this dialectic,

00:06:53.500 as some have referred to it, between the forces, Ron Brownstein refers to it, of restoration and

00:06:59.580 the forces of transformation. And that frames the opening of your book.

00:07:06.520 And I think that's, I appreciate that. And I think that, you know, we kind of had the

00:07:12.360 opportunity to live through the former. I mean, that's what Joe Biden's presidency was. It was a

00:07:16.840 return to the status quo. And I think that that's honestly what people felt like we needed at that

00:07:22.520 moment. But in retrospect, it landed us where we are right now. Like if we don't take action to

00:07:30.780 really feed, I think, the appetite of what people were looking for, somebody else is going to fill

00:07:36.540 that vacuum. And that's what Trump did. And granted, he wasn't doing it in, you know, he had

00:07:42.560 no intention of actually fulfilling any of his promises. He knew the things to say, even though

00:07:47.160 it wasn't in good faith. It was just completely disingenuous. He understood what people were

00:07:52.180 thirsty for. And that was that sense of transformation. But this did come in the

00:07:57.800 aftermath of Joe Biden's return to normalcy. And you can't fault him for trying that. And in fact,

00:08:04.540 I think that's what a lot of people were looking for in that moment. But but, you know, there are still a lot of people who left that presidency disillusioned with politics because a return to normalcy and kind of a retrenchment in the status quo meant that that it would be kind of a reversion to these institutions that hadn't been working for people in the past.

00:08:24.780 And people can't afford, I mean, you've heard the statistics that people, you know, 40% of Americans can't afford a $400 emergency. And so when you go back to a system that created that environment, then obviously a lot of people are going to be restless.

00:08:40.380 So building back better is not going to be the brand, is not going to be the motto moving forward.

00:08:48.220 No, and in fact, Trump is instructive in that way that we don't have to be like these institutions are not so sacred as we've been led to believe that that the parliamentarian and the filibuster and our norms and our processes are not so sacrosanct that we can't barrel through these things.

00:09:08.020 Trump's doing it in a way that benefits himself

00:09:10.560 Where he can profit off of it

00:09:11.980 So I think we can do it in a virtuous way

00:09:14.180 To bring about some outcomes that people are looking for

00:09:17.360 But we have to remember

00:09:18.200 Like the point of being in government

00:09:20.780 Is not the preservation of these processes

00:09:22.940 The point of being in government is the outcomes

00:09:25.100 The processes are what you have to figure out to get there

00:09:28.900 But like you gotta remember

00:09:30.780 That the North Star of this stuff

00:09:31.940 Is not the preservation of the filibuster

00:09:33.340 It's making sure that people have healthcare

00:09:35.240 It's making sure that people have jobs

00:09:36.760 making sure that we have a just economy. It's making sure that that this country works for

00:09:41.180 people, for regular people. And I think that that gets lost somewhere along the way.

00:09:46.360 So I love. So you open the book, you sort of frame that debate, this ongoing debate that

00:09:49.980 we continue to have and this sort of contrast from one election to the next election. You're

00:09:53.960 always looking for something that's the opposite of what you necessarily have. And so Biden sort

00:09:58.200 of fit that bill as it relates to the chaos and the incompetency of Donald Trump. Of course,

00:10:03.460 that same argument made, the chaos encompassing Donald Trump is now, you know, has been sort of

00:10:08.520 exponentially more exposed. And then we may be looking for, you know, a warm blanket. But we'll

00:10:15.320 get to that. You don't make that case. You're for the transformation. You're for more of an

00:10:19.780 insurgency mindset. And you lay out chapter by chapter what you're thinking. You start with this

00:10:25.640 notion, though, that that thinking has been going back decades and decades. And Democrats can't just

00:10:31.040 be situational in their mindset around that debate. And we have to be more sustainable and

00:10:35.840 understand as you open up chapter one, the long game, that one of the residents who lived here,

00:10:42.220 Ronald Reagan, Nixon, Bush, others, they understood the long game. It was a half-century

00:10:48.760 project. Cato, Heritage, others. Talk more about that. Yeah. And I think Republicans are really

00:10:55.860 effective at laying out these plans that may not instantly gratify them, but but but have been shown

00:11:04.240 to be really effective over the years anyway. I mean, even the redistricting project that

00:11:08.460 Republicans started, I think, in 2010. I mean, we are right now in 2026 and watching the Voting

00:11:15.920 Rights Act, Section two of the Voting Rights Act, having fallen and Republicans just redrew 12 more

00:11:21.080 seats. I mean, this is this is the natural conclusion of a project that is 16 years in the

00:11:26.100 making. And and it always feels like we're trying to catch up at least a decade behind. So like we

00:11:33.920 see these projects play out and and it's just a constant game of catch up. And so, you know,

00:11:38.800 it's going to take a lot of a lot of swift action, which is not necessarily intuitive for a party

00:11:44.160 that relies on commissions and is very risk-averse and, you know, would rather defer to strongly

00:11:53.740 worded letters than any serious action. But I think, again, like going back to that main thesis

00:11:59.000 of the book, it's going to take kind of barreling through a lot of these barriers that we've erected 0.98

00:12:04.680 for ourselves that we view as so sacrosanct to kind of get some shit done. And then you make 0.92

00:12:10.900 that contrast by opening the second chapter, which you talk about the wrong game, is those

00:12:15.780 instincts that you describe in, you know, quasi-critical terms. I mean, you're hardly an

00:12:21.300 indictment, but some frustration that Obamacare becomes Romneycare, this notion of the third way

00:12:27.220 and Clinton, that all the efforts to reach out to the other side, even by Obama himself,

00:12:32.320 you know, sort of this Tea Party framework, and, you know, ends up biting our hand.

00:12:36.700 so there there is this constant sense and it's not so much an indictment because because look i i i do

00:12:44.880 i i applaud the efforts of these people and you have to remember like this was happening in context

00:12:48.560 and so we look at a lot of this stuff in the past from the the mindset and the framework of today

00:12:54.100 and it wasn't it you know it wasn't as bad as it was today and so um and and obama's whole thing

00:13:01.820 was like you could you know we're not red states or blue states but the united states and so you

00:13:05.680 can't blame him for trying for offering a good faith effort to try and and and reach across the

00:13:11.220 aisle but my my contention here is is that like by conferring goodwill to the other side in hopes

00:13:19.020 that they will um that they will reciprocate it's a fool's errand at this point like what do we get

00:13:25.820 for it what do we get for for listening to mitch mcconnell when he says okay this is our new rule

00:13:32.000 about the Supreme Court. You can't nominate somebody in an election year until the moment

00:13:38.300 that they have the opportunity to do that. And it's not a year out, it's five minutes out. Votes

00:13:42.940 are already being cast. And so, you know, we've allowed ourselves to be fooled so many times

00:13:48.140 thinking that, okay, these, you know, if only we just give them this one, then they'll owe us one.

00:13:54.940 And we never, you know, cash in on that. We're never able to cash in on that. And so instead

00:14:00.240 of trying to be good governing partners with a team that will never reciprocate, that never

00:14:08.000 wants to offer it back to you, maybe we just figure out what we need to do to win moving

00:14:13.920 forward. And that's it. And that will also offer a deterrent effect, because right now it's easy

00:14:18.380 for them to do it knowing that they have a weak opponent. It's not dissimilar to what Trump is

00:14:22.560 doing with ABC, for example. You know, George Stephanopoulos, they have this bogus defamation

00:14:28.360 lawsuit against George Stephanopoulos, ABC says, you know what, let's just let's give him this one.

00:14:32.860 Let's settle for 16 million dollars. And now we see, you know, multiple other lawsuits. Now Donald

00:14:39.740 Trump is announcing that he's suing ABC over the reflecting pool. And so it just never ends. You

00:14:45.880 gain nothing by conferring goodwill to bad faith negotiating partners. And and so, you know, I just

00:14:52.280 think that we need to, to leave, to leave that mentality, which was exercised by Clinton and

00:14:59.720 Biden and Obama in the past, because those Republican parties are, are, are parties of

00:15:06.320 the past anyway. And that's a point you make that it's not the old Republic. It's not your mom and

00:15:10.140 dad's Republican party. It's not Ronald Reagan's Republican party. I mean, hell, even that, even

00:15:13.120 the old Republican party wasn't willing to negotiate in good faith. Oh, there's that too.

00:15:16.700 So we tend to be a little more nostalgic, don't we, about all this? I mean, I mean, yes, like,

00:15:20.560 We were at the Obama Center. Everyone saw George Bush. We all started applauding. We longed for the good old days of Iraq war.

00:15:27.720 Who would have guessed that George W. Bush would basically be the modern equivalent of, I don't even know, Ed Markey over here. 0.99

00:15:39.880 Ed Markey. We could get an Ed Markey, a climate champion, which we're going to close with near the end of the New Green Deal.

00:15:47.400 But you talk about checks and balances in the context of referencing Congress, McConnell, et cetera, this notion, this romantic notion, back to your fundamental theory of the case here with this book, of a system of co-equal branches of government, popular sovereignty, the rule of law, and in more of a traditional construct that Democrats have sort of played under.

00:16:07.940 But you opened Chapter 3 saying blank checks and balances, that they just don't exist.

00:16:17.160 We have a supine Congress.

00:16:19.180 Executive power seems almost absolute.

00:16:23.380 The Speaker of the House, I don't even mean Johnson, I think is his name, Thune is attempting to at least assert as one does and then immediately is complicit in Trump's agenda.

00:16:37.540 But so tell me what you're, you know, what you get into a lot of structural questions and answers around filibuster and strategies as it relates to, you mentioned the parliamentarian, sort of disabusing ourselves with all the status quo.

00:16:52.940 Yeah. And I think, I mean, you know, that is one of the things that I've spoken about for years and years and years.

00:16:58.160 And again, I think that there is a deference to, to like good government institutions and you can't blame. Well, I mean, at this point now you have to, you have to see the writing on the wall, but I understand the proclivity for, for, for Democrats as these institutions are being torn down, that your reflex is you have to protect them.

00:17:20.060 But, but again, I think that it's, it's, you know, a misguided effort because the reaction to Republicans tearing this stuff down can't be, okay, we have to preserve them exactly as they are. It has to be, it has to be just an understanding that they are not sacrosanct, but how can we fix them so that they're better? How can we fix them so they actually work for people?

00:17:41.240 How can we listen to what people like about what the Republicans are doing right now and use those lessons?

00:17:49.660 And it's not, you know, there might be one or two things in there, but like use some of the lessons that we're learning more broadly.

00:17:55.380 So again, it is just this idea of not having deference to kind of the status quo just as a reflex to push back against what Republicans are doing, which is tear it down.

00:18:07.680 So we have to stand it up and preserve it in amber and make sure that nothing changes.

00:18:13.080 No, and I think it's one of the most effective things that the Republican Party has been able to do because they put us right there on the defense, defending, frankly, something that may have outlived its usefulness.

00:18:23.260 But we haven't painted necessarily a positive alternative, what we would do differently.

00:18:26.700 So we're in this fight and flight and we're constantly, again, on the defense, on our heels. 0.54

00:18:30.580 Let me ask you, like if if we were looking at what government more broadly could look like in 2029 and beyond, if you were to think of this with a doge mindset, minus all of the minus all of the graft, grift and corruption, what does it look like? 0.87

00:18:49.620 A reckless-taking approach to reform, not a reckless approach to reform.

00:18:54.160 And that's a very – you do things with people, not to people.

00:18:57.180 And it's not just performative.

00:18:58.520 It's substantive.

00:18:59.060 It's sustainable.

00:18:59.900 By the way, we've seen models of that in the past.

00:19:02.360 It looks a little bit more like, dare I say, rego, reinvent government.

00:19:05.980 It was dull and boring.

00:19:07.240 And we saw all that paperwork stacked up with Al Gore out there in the White House, not the UFC set, but the White House filled with papers and regulations and reforms that were advanced.

00:19:16.800 We reduced the ongoing cost of government. It was more effective, more efficient. And we focused on outcomes. We actually focused on customers. They used the word customer service, which offended some people. Strategic plans, which people thought was a little offensive, but they used a more business-like approach to governance, not necessarily being a business because they're not in the business of doing the job of a business. And so I think that sort of that's the contour. That's the approach you start to build off of.

00:19:44.300 I mean, that's been a major theme in California because, look, this is a true blue state.

00:19:49.260 There are, I think, a lot of really good faith efforts to do a lot of good things as it relates

00:19:55.680 to the environment, as it relates to protecting tenants and consumers. But eventually, you get

00:20:00.840 to the point where it becomes more of a barrier, more of an obstacle to growth and progress.

00:20:06.600 Now you're getting a liberalism that builds. Now you're getting into results that people can see.

00:20:10.720 if they can't see it they're not going to believe it right biggest mistakes we had they need to see

00:20:14.740 it it's a proof of concept right and and so i'm more so that all the you know just the process

00:20:21.080 and paralysis by analysis and as you say quote-unquote good government inclusive government

00:20:26.160 oh it's wonderful it's enlightened yeah but there's a time value not just to money there's

00:20:31.440 a time value to confidence yeah we're lose this republic because we've lost people's confidence

00:20:36.200 that we can deliver real and visible results.

00:20:40.660 And one example of that, like on a national level,

00:20:43.080 is I think when the Biden administration

00:20:45.760 was able to negotiate lower drug prices on 10 drugs,

00:20:49.360 and I think it wasn't going to kick in

00:20:50.820 for like several years.

00:20:52.080 And inherently, that was going to fall

00:20:54.380 beyond the timeframe of Biden's administration.

00:20:59.140 And so you are, like, it is built into the process

00:21:02.400 that somebody else is going to get credit for it.

00:21:04.540 Chips and Sides Act, the infrastructure bill.

00:21:06.040 all these things. They're not easy. Localism's determinative. At the end of the day,

00:21:09.500 the federal vision is realized locally. So let's multiply that. 50 states, California,

00:21:14.560 58 counties, 476 cities, jurisdictions within each one of those. You have regional agencies

00:21:19.820 and bodies. So yeah, getting that ultimate charging station built after the bill was passed.

00:21:26.780 Yeah, that has a lag time. I'm sorry, it just does. Right now, Trump is taking advantage of

00:21:31.020 all that. He decides and picks and chooses, a la carte. Don't like the wind things,

00:21:35.040 but i like these other things uh and obviously the cornyism that comes from that determination

00:21:39.960 but i'm not going to let you off the uh the hook here because you talk about checks and balances

00:21:44.020 and reforms i want to go back to some you're promoting and i and i i i'm out there i have

00:21:49.600 the same instincts but i want to challenge you on some concerns this notion of the filibuster

00:21:54.500 interesting thune himself yeah is happy about having the courts and you make this point you

00:22:01.720 You get the courts with a simple majority, but we have to have filibuster and all the things Democrats seem to support, which is gun control, immigration, abortion, climate, all these things.

00:22:10.420 So I guess that status quo ante kind of works for him. 0.98

00:22:13.620 But you're like, we're going, enough of this bullshit with the filibuster. 0.98

00:22:18.160 We need to take back things. 0.98

00:22:19.060 But what about that knife that will be sharpened when Republicans take back power, even if we enjoy the situational power?

00:22:29.660 So we're going to prevent ourselves from advancing legislation that's going to help people for fear of Republicans potentially abusing their power when they get it. 0.98

00:22:39.400 I mean, they're abusing their power right right fucking now. 0.96

00:22:41.580 So what are we waiting for? 0.98

00:22:43.000 You know, like we're worried that they're going to that they're going to abuse the levers of government.

00:22:47.800 We're in it.

00:22:48.560 So at this point, you can either do what you got to do to actually deliver for people if we're lucky enough to take power so that they can see that it's actually worth it to cast their ballot for Democrats.

00:22:58.520 or we can just sit there with our tail between our legs and say, oh, well, you know, we wouldn't

00:23:03.860 want to give them a weapon to use in the future because then we might see what it's like to have

00:23:07.120 Republicans abuse the levers of government. It's like we're there. Toothpaces out of the tube.

00:23:11.780 Ah, you've won the argument. By the way, talk about toothpicks out of tube. Again,

00:23:15.920 back to Ronald Reagan. I mean, this is his own old resonance. So much of the environmental

00:23:21.200 authorities that we've enjoyed go back to Ronald Reagan, the creation of the California Air

00:23:25.420 Resource Board in 1967, tailpipe emission standards, regulating, dare I say, pollution

00:23:32.120 that comes, its origin story, out of California, Republican administration, codified by a

00:23:37.760 Republican by the name of Richard Nixon, 1970, and the Clean Air Act at a federal level.

00:23:43.920 And the parliamentarian had held the line on what they referred to as a Congressional

00:23:50.620 Review Act. And Thune just gave it a middle finger and Ronald Reagan himself a middle finger.

00:23:56.120 They don't play by any set of rules. They play by their own rules, which is the point

00:24:01.600 you just made. Their abuse of power is jaw dropping. So I deeply respect the counter

00:24:09.760 argument you just made. But as a purist and a traditionalist, it's hard to sort of disrupt

00:24:16.080 the cooling the idea of the senate was supposed to be something different cooling yeah the hot

00:24:22.260 headedness of the you know the the house of representatives it was supposed to but you're

00:24:27.700 arguing you know look at you you look at ted you want to convince us that it's a a cooling saucer

00:24:33.300 that's the ted cruz that that's that's your that's your level-headed uh it's like that's the

00:24:37.660 pushback we're gonna then move on to the next chapter no no uh untouchables because here's

00:24:43.340 Everyone's thinking, well, why the hell are they talking about the courts?

00:24:46.720 So you open up, you talk about blank checks and balances, well said.

00:24:50.940 And then this notion of the untouchables.

00:24:52.400 And it has been the untouchables.

00:24:53.920 It's the court.

00:24:54.260 And you have had this conversation.

00:24:55.820 I'm kind of mixed on this.

00:24:57.160 I'm open argument.

00:24:58.060 I really am on this.

00:24:59.320 Not an ideologue.

00:25:00.020 But I have instinctual concerns about reforming the court in terms of its size.

00:25:04.280 Good people argue differently.

00:25:05.840 You do as well.

00:25:06.780 But we agree on term limits.

00:25:08.700 We agree on ethic and code of conduct reforms.

00:25:11.320 You lay them out in here.

00:25:12.500 You lay out the why from Alito to the Kavanaugh, the shadow docket we can get to.

00:25:17.860 Obviously, what's going on with, you know, who's the other one? 1.00

00:25:22.240 Alito and, you know, the insurrectionist fag. 1.00

00:25:25.180 I mean, Jesus, what the hell is going on with the Supreme Court? 1.00

00:25:27.680 So let's talk about this.

00:25:29.340 So my argument here is that we need court expansion.

00:25:35.520 It makes sense not just from a moral perspective, which I'll get to in a moment, but also there

00:25:40.400 is historical precedent for it.

00:25:42.500 The number of federal court circuits have always been commensurate with the number of

00:25:48.240 Supreme Court seats.

00:25:49.040 We've had six in the past, I think in 1837.

00:25:51.940 That's raised to nine.

00:25:53.120 But now we have 13 federal court circuits and we still have nine Supreme Court justices.

00:25:57.780 But from so that's the historical argument for this.

00:26:00.980 It would make it would make sense.

00:26:02.360 It's also not in the Constitution that we should have nine.

00:26:05.140 It's also, you know, not so sacrosanct that Republicans haven't changed that number in

00:26:10.500 modern times.

00:26:11.080 Again, they kept the court at eight seats because they wanted to keep Merrick Garland off the court. That was almost a year. So we have very recent precedent for Republicans changing the composition of the court to suit them politically.

00:26:22.680 now imagine we're fortunate enough to have a democratic president democratic house democratic

00:26:28.980 senate senate we we get some legislation passed which already unto itself is a a herculean task

00:26:36.540 now we have this rogue branch of government which is you know not look you look at samuel

00:26:42.640 and clarence thomas these are not uh these are not you know uh these these you know apolitical

00:26:49.500 neutral arbiters of the law. This is Jim Jordan in a suit, right? In a robe, I should say.

00:26:55.780 Jim Jordan with a jacket on.

00:26:57.440 Yeah, wearing something.

00:26:59.680 I assume, I mean, that would be a hell of a thing to see.

00:27:02.460 So, you know, with the composition of the court as it stands right now,

00:27:07.580 they have a permanent veto over any and all legislation that Democrats could put forward.

00:27:13.380 And so we do all of this work and yet opt to leave in place just by virtue of our respect for norms and precedent, a 6-3 conservative court that can and absolutely will strike down anything that doesn't comport with their political ideology.

00:27:29.660 I mean, this is a court that has just struck down the voting, the entirety of the Voting Rights Act. This is a court that that will, in deference to their party, create provisions of the Constitution out of whole cloth, like this idea that the president can act with impunity as it relates to criminal prosecution, that will ignore the plaintext of the Constitution, like Section 3 of the 14th Amendment that prevents someone from running for federal office again if they've engaged in.

00:27:59.660 or given aid or comfort to those who've engaged in insurrection. Donald Trump did that. That's

00:28:03.380 not just me saying it. It is the Colorado Supreme Court, for example. And so they make it up as they

00:28:09.940 go. And so while we're making this whole argument about not just sitting on our laurels and hoping

00:28:16.380 that, you know, just by virtue of the arc of the moral universe bending toward justice, you know,

00:28:22.980 through osmosis or whatever it is that it's just going to happen good. Like the arc of the moral

00:28:30.940 universe doesn't just bend toward justice. You have to push it. And so I think this is a perfect

00:28:35.780 example of where you push it. Leaving intact this court just out of deference to stasis or the

00:28:44.780 status quo gives them a permission structure to strike down anything that all of these people

00:28:52.340 have worked to get by showing up and voting Democrats into office. And, you know, you

00:28:58.580 campaign on climate change and health care and a just economy and everything that gets

00:29:04.880 people out of bed, everything that makes people believe in politics. But you know that you're

00:29:08.640 just leaving intact voluntarily a veto for the other side with people who you know are

00:29:14.580 not neutral arbiters of the law, people like Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas. And so if

00:29:19.580 we're if we're adhering to this vision of of recognizing that we have one shot here to really

00:29:26.640 deliver for people like Republicans fumbled the ball they they 2024 was an incredible reversal

00:29:33.700 of not just not just political alignments but but culture I mean we're not like when I was in

00:29:41.600 college you regardless of geography regardless of socioeconomic status you were for Obama if

00:29:49.560 If you were a young person, like it would be impossible to it would be social suicide if you're like, oh, no, I'm a I'm a I'm a John McCain guy.

00:29:56.040 I'm a George W. Bush guy. Yeah. Yeah. And and you were not in the cool club.

00:30:00.540 No. And to watch Democrats have fumbled it to the point where it actually became more like became cooler, became more culturally beneficial to be a Republican is a is a coup for them.

00:30:15.700 and for them to fumble the ball

00:30:17.820 like they're doing right now

00:30:18.760 we have an opportunity

00:30:20.260 that we shouldn't frankly have 1.00

00:30:21.580 if they weren't so fucking incompetent 0.99

00:30:23.200 they wouldn't have given us this opportunity 0.99

00:30:24.620 but we have this moment right here

00:30:26.760 it's a brief moment

00:30:29.740 that we can take advantage of

00:30:31.500 and if we use that moment by thinking

00:30:33.720 that we can garner all this support

00:30:36.920 and get like our one last shot

00:30:39.780 only to put it in the hands of a Supreme Court

00:30:42.300 that we know is going to strike anything

00:30:44.800 and everything down, then we are not actually committed to the outcomes that we claim to be

00:30:48.760 committed to. So you're talking about expanding to 13, and it's interesting. I mean, it is a great

00:30:55.940 historical, and people forget it. The last time it was done, again, was under Lincoln. There's

00:30:59.860 no constitutional constraints on this. I would argue last time it was done,

00:31:02.880 it was done under Mitch McConnell. I love the Merrick Garland point. That's an interesting

00:31:07.600 and powerful point. Supreme Court went down from nine to eight for a year. They changed the number

00:31:11.280 of justice he was he did not screw around and and and so nor can we now let's get to the the other

00:31:16.560 two component parts code of conduct which is all the stuff with thomas is off the charts before we

00:31:21.000 go there did i did i i need to know if i convinced you before we get to the code of conduct i'm going

00:31:25.300 to conclude with all right because i'm going to i'm going to then fill in additional we're going

00:31:30.140 to create we're adding more ingredients to the overall reform here so you're calling for code

00:31:35.140 of conduct that just seems to be a no damn brainer right yeah code of ethics absolutely more

00:31:39.140 transparency, et cetera, that this notion of term limits. Eight years you call for? Others have said

00:31:46.060 18. Why eight? I think, you know, look, I'm open to, I'm open. Oh, interesting. Now you're open

00:31:53.960 to argument. You know, I think we can both, it's a give and take here. I think, you know,

00:32:00.320 just with the way that these presidential administrations work, I think it takes a lot of

00:32:06.320 the eventfulness of Supreme Court retirements out of the equation if they're done with more

00:32:16.580 frequency. And you expect one or two retirements in the next days, weeks, even before the publication

00:32:24.520 of your book? You know, I am holding my breath. Every day that we don't have the announcement

00:32:31.340 of one of these Supreme Court justices stepping down.

00:32:35.100 It's not even something that I often want to talk about

00:32:37.900 because I don't even want to put it in the zeitgeist.

00:32:40.640 We can keep it in for the pod.

00:32:43.600 But like, you know, look, I am holding my breath.

00:32:47.440 We have, God willing, Democrats take control of the Senate in 2026.

00:32:54.260 And then it's not something that we have to worry about.

00:32:56.780 Unless, of course, there is some...

00:32:58.600 They move ASAP and they go.

00:32:59.900 unless unless correct and frankly they could and i would be i would be i would be surprised if they

00:33:06.800 didn't but but we'll see how how committed you know how committed they are to trying to do that

00:33:13.280 again like they have a majority and so and so i'm hoping and praying that it doesn't happen but

00:33:19.240 that's again another that should be another impetus to to take serious reforms because

00:33:25.100 otherwise we're looking at a supreme court that is not just six three but six three where we have

00:33:29.300 a bunch of 40-year-old justices. So here's my prediction. You will be on this book tour,

00:33:33.500 and this will be the most focused part of your conversation with folks this chapter.

00:33:38.780 You know, I've been asked what is the first thing that the left needs to do when it takes

00:33:44.160 power again. And I have said the first thing that needs to happen is court reform and court

00:33:48.400 expansion. Yeah. Look, you're getting me closer to your point of view. And you challenged me. I

00:33:54.000 I know we were talking, I was on your pod down in L.A. a few months ago, and this notion of 13 and then just looking at the district courts as that framework sort of anchor the old school, the ember of a traditional, you know.

00:34:06.600 I mean, look, for a guy who recognized the urgency of the moment with Prop 50, and in fact, the only democratic state to have successfully redrawn its maps ahead of 2026, that is what I think is the natural evolution for somebody like you.

00:34:27.580 I'm with you. I'm done winning arguments. We got to win. And we got to consolidate power. And again, this book is about power. The subheadline, again, how to wait. I mean, this is it.

00:34:36.600 wield power yeah uh without it it's all bullshit yeah i mean it's academic bullshit and it's 0.97

00:34:42.680 frustrating to becoming more and more frustrating but i want to go back you talked about the long 0.80

00:34:45.860 arc in the moral universe it's interesting that there's a beautiful arch at uh sculpture

00:34:50.640 sculpture at the obama center yeah um and the history of that quote is not a martin luther

00:34:56.840 king quote it goes back well before and it's actually even more spectacular uh the context

00:35:01.820 of the original quote, but it's all predicated on this notion of we the people, that we have

00:35:06.580 agency, that we're not bystanders, we're not just, you know, future is not just something to

00:35:11.080 experience, it's something to manifest. And you write, again, in the book about the importance

00:35:16.320 of power of citizenship, this notion that we have the ability along the lines of gerrymandering

00:35:22.260 to fix that once and for all, which is nationalized, independent redistricting,

00:35:27.760 voting rights, et cetera. Talk to me more about what your investment of time and energy in this

00:35:34.500 chapter represented. I mean, that is the basis of democracy. I think even as I advocate for

00:35:40.400 Prop 50 here in California, as I advocate for it in Virginia, and I'm sure that they'll get it done

00:35:46.680 as we head toward 2028. Back to the courts in Virginia. Right. But more broadly, I mean,

00:35:53.660 as we look for it to be done in, you know, in New Jersey and Colorado, Illinois, Oregon,

00:35:59.320 Washington, Maryland, so that we can counteract what's happening. I will concede it's a race to

00:36:04.820 the bottom. What I'm saying more broadly, though, is that we can't be in a position to unilaterally

00:36:09.720 disarm. But recognizing that it is a scourge on democracy, we do need to fix this. I mean,

00:36:16.940 we need proper districts and real representation so that also we don't have the most extreme

00:36:24.380 candidates running in these races because they're so fixed, depending on whether it's a red state

00:36:28.920 or a blue state. And I think that we're losing large swaths of people. And that's bad for

00:36:32.760 democracy. You don't create a healthy democracy by having R plus 72 districts or D plus 65

00:36:40.720 districts where there's such a vast gap between the left and the right, where, yes, the extremes

00:36:49.280 do proliferate and you lose so many people in the middle and they lose faith in government.

00:36:54.880 And it's that vacuum of civic participation where demagogues can thrive. And we're seeing

00:37:01.160 the fruits of that right now. I mean, this is what governance looks like when a demagogue has

00:37:06.800 taken control. So even as I recognize or even as I advocate for for aggressive action to counteract

00:37:14.620 what Republicans are doing, and as I'm proud to sit in a state, the only state that's gotten it

00:37:19.700 done, I do think that that national reforms are desperately needed. What I won't abide is is is

00:37:27.160 only one side doing it. And we've already seen that that's happened. I mean, California and New

00:37:33.360 york are these democratic weapons we have redistricting commissions independent redistricting

00:37:37.680 commissions in both meanwhile texas and florida are gerrymandering maps on top of previously

00:37:42.320 gerrymandered maps so we can't do that anymore but but uh but yeah i do think that these national

00:37:48.700 voting rights reforms are needed we need election day to be a holiday we need um fair maps so that

00:37:54.760 people can can choose their their elected officials that best represent them and so that the the one

00:38:00.700 party or another cannot scientifically engineer majorities in the House. And I think, you know,

00:38:07.720 I think once we are in a position where the Supreme Court isn't a veto on anything and

00:38:13.620 everything the Democrats put forward, we need something like the Freedom to Vote Act or a new

00:38:18.080 Voting Rights Act. I mean, H.R. 1 was the most important piece of legislation that came about

00:38:22.600 in the Biden era. And the fact that we didn't get it passed is, I think, a blight on

00:38:29.980 on, on the party, frankly, even though it was, you know, it was Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin

00:38:35.820 who refused to, uh, to eliminate the filibuster. And now look at the, like the notion that you

00:38:41.400 can make the argument that we are in better shape because this, because the filibuster was

00:38:45.780 preserved, uh, looking at the state of our democracy right now is, is I think the best

00:38:52.560 argument for eliminating the filibuster moving forward. You cannot in good faith make the

00:38:56.680 argument that we are in better shape right now because the filibuster is intact and we don't have

00:39:01.840 hr1 fair point we also then don't have a bill that claims to be a voter id bill which is really

00:39:09.460 a registration bill which is a pick your choose your vote i mean so how do you how do you square

00:39:13.900 that again i mean you're never gonna it's never gonna be perfect and and you cannot refuse to

00:39:21.340 wield power for fear of the other side abusing it when we're in a position where they're already

00:39:25.720 abusing it. So yes, do you take a risk? Absolutely. But with that risk comes reward. And I think

00:39:32.280 we're in a position where we need to take some action because time's up. We're losing democracy

00:39:40.420 and we are not heading toward autocracy. We are there. We have a kleptocratic government. We are

00:39:46.080 in a post-law society so long as you're a Republican or so long as you donate to Trump's

00:39:53.480 campaign or have your mother donate to Donald Trump. I mean, that was one of the, I think the,

00:39:57.920 one of the pardon recipients, his mom, onto a fundraiser at Mar-a-Lago. So like, again,

00:40:04.160 we cannot refuse to wield power for fear of abuse in a society where abuse is rampant.

00:40:09.780 Imperial presidency, not a king. Next chapter here. This notion of, you know, just, I mean,

00:40:18.140 here's my biggest fear. You think I'm right or wrong? When Trump leaves and we go back

00:40:22.820 to this notion of accountability. We're going to get to the accountability components of your

00:40:27.300 argument. This imperial president who the Supreme Court, back to the Supreme Court,

00:40:32.600 has basically sanctioned, has no liability whatsoever for acts that he's conducted as

00:40:37.740 president of the United States. With no oversight in supine Congress, we've established that and

00:40:42.600 the blank check imbalances that you write about effectively. He's going to pardon everyone around

00:40:50.300 them. I mean, don't you think that they, I mean, literally everyone around them and they know that

00:40:56.680 today. That's why they're complicit in the grift and the graft and the bullshit. 0.99

00:41:02.200 Mom, I want to sign up for soccer and lacrosse. Ooh, maybe hip hop. Actually robotics sounds fun 1.00

00:41:08.440 too. Piano? No, no, no. Drums. Activities change, but eggs stay the same. Packed with protein and

00:41:14.680 nutrients. They're the perfect fuel for any activity. And thanks to dedicated Ontario egg

00:41:19.260 farmers and the eqa mark you can count on them to always be fresh local and held to the highest

00:41:24.420 standards is there such a thing as competitive scrambled egg eating i'd rule at that egg

00:41:29.680 farmers of ontario get cracking hey i'm hoda kotby host of the podcast joy 101 with hoda kotby

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00:42:37.400 That's incredible.

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00:43:56.740 I Am Rappaport Podcast.

00:43:58.840 Am I overstating that?

00:44:03.460 No, I think that that is,

00:44:05.420 I'm actually shocked, frankly,

00:44:07.120 that he didn't try to pardon himself

00:44:08.700 after his first term.

00:44:10.380 I have no doubt that he'll pardon

00:44:13.280 all the people around him.

00:44:14.860 Look, I think that-

00:44:15.640 So how do you advance accountability

00:44:16.700 in that construct?

00:44:17.680 Well, you go to court and you try to prove

00:44:20.400 that they were corruptly given pardons,

00:44:23.540 but you fight, you make an effort.

00:44:25.560 You gotta, I mean,

00:44:27.280 the last thing that we can do is just accept this as a fait accompli because that's just how it is.

00:44:35.020 And so we're going to lay down our arms. I mean, this deference to preventing the optics of

00:44:41.520 politicization was what Merrick Garland's DOJ was. And you cannot look at how Trump is comporting

00:44:47.980 himself right now, how he's behaving right now, and think that Merrick Garland was acting properly

00:44:56.860 or that he succeeded in his effort

00:45:00.220 to depoliticize government.

00:45:02.360 We are in the most politicized government.

00:45:04.800 And frankly, Trump said he was the victim

00:45:06.700 of weaponized government anyway.

00:45:08.220 And so you have somebody who refused to wield the DOJ

00:45:12.260 virtuously against Donald Trump.

00:45:15.120 He got no credit for doing so

00:45:16.840 because Trump claimed that he was the victim

00:45:18.920 of a weaponized government anyway.

00:45:20.560 And you left him in a position where you embolden him

00:45:24.220 because why not?

00:45:25.780 I mean, it's not like the Biden DOJ was going to do anything about it. And so that's how you encourage corruption, by telling these criminals that they can get away with it. And Trump is somebody who, if you do not hold him accountable, the only message he receives from that is, I can keep going. I can do it more and more and more. And we're living through that right now.

00:45:47.800 I mean, we see these these stock trades that happened five minutes before he makes a major announcement that happens on a daily basis. We see, you know, the Don Jr. getting six hundred and twenty million dollar loans for the from the Defense Department for a company that he invested in five minutes earlier.

00:46:05.280 I mean, it is just oozing with corruption.

00:46:08.600 And they wouldn't do this if there were some consequences for their behavior, but they

00:46:13.740 know that there weren't.

00:46:14.720 And so you almost can't blame them.

00:46:17.240 But we can't be in a world where so long as you're a politician, you can get away with

00:46:24.760 it for fear of looking politicized.

00:46:28.100 That's the most politicized outcome I think you could possibly imagine.

00:46:31.920 giving a politician a get-out-of-jail-free card

00:46:35.060 just because he's a politician.

00:46:36.860 I can't think of a more politicized DOJ.

00:46:40.080 We were with Hunter Biden just a week ago.

00:46:44.000 I don't need to remind you, nor Hunter,

00:46:47.300 that it was his father's own DOJ

00:46:50.260 that indicted him, his son.

00:46:52.960 I mean, there's your weaponization, I guess.

00:46:55.380 Yeah, and Bob Menendez.

00:46:57.560 Thank you.

00:46:58.060 And granted, it's not like Bob Menendez

00:47:00.940 didn't deserve it, but the standard is not applied equally. I mean, you know, you have

00:47:06.780 a Democratic DOJ that is rightfully, virtuously prosecuting Democratic officials when they

00:47:13.320 deserve it. You have a Republican DOJ that's not only refusing to prosecute, but giving

00:47:18.900 get-out-of-jail-free cards and pardons to criminals so long as they have an R next to

00:47:22.920 their name.

00:47:23.260 And selectively prosecuting people. We'll leave that one for another time. Con in economy.

00:47:30.940 And I love this. You talk about the confidence track, which is interesting. I love the way you describe that, this notion of trade and tariffs and somehow building a sense of false confidence that he's got your back, Donald Trump.

00:47:42.640 But that this economic agenda of Donald Trump's self-evidently, it's been a complete debacle.

00:47:50.280 Yeah. We have seen the greatest con, I think, of this administration is the extent to which he presented himself as this economic populist.

00:48:00.340 only for the moment he got into office, wielded every lever of government to benefit himself

00:48:06.900 financially. And, you know, granted, he'll offer up some crumbs to the plebs out here. 0.99

00:48:13.840 But this administration works for one very specific, very narrow class of people. 0.98

00:48:20.600 And it is Trump's own family and his donors who are the principal beneficiaries of that.

00:48:28.360 and uh i think that that is again the the biggest tragedy of what we've seen because there are

00:48:35.320 people you know if anybody recognizes the pain that people are contending with in this country

00:48:40.540 right now it is the guy who exploited that pain on the campaign trail i mean trump talked about

00:48:45.500 about uh you may not know this word groceries it's a old-fashioned word we can we can look it up

00:48:52.100 some people are using that word yeah yeah it's coming it's coming it's having a resurgence

00:48:56.100 It's coming back.

00:48:57.020 Yeah.

00:48:57.500 He talked about like the price of an egg.

00:48:59.700 Like that's how granular this guy got.

00:49:01.380 As if he's ever been into a supermarket.

00:49:03.700 Like he talked about the price of an egg.

00:49:05.960 And now, I mean, like, you know, we have like Marie Antoinette here.

00:49:11.700 He's encrusting the Oval Office in gold, building himself an arch, gifted himself a Qatari jet,

00:49:17.480 retrofitted to the tune of a billion dollars paid for by us.

00:49:20.920 Thank you.

00:49:21.200 Thank you for reminding people it's not just a $400 million Qatari jet.

00:49:24.520 was over 900, almost $950 million, the Pentagon budget, to retrofit it. That's going to his

00:49:30.660 foundation, which means it's a personal gift to Donald Trump. We have the repaving of the Rose

00:49:35.720 Garden. We have the ballroom that's being built that was supposed to be independently financed.

00:49:41.260 Now, taxpayers, of course, are on the hook for it, just like taxpayers weren't supposed to pay

00:49:45.820 for the wall until they were. So this whole thing has been a financial windfall, not to mention the

00:49:52.420 fact that he's made $4 billion in just the first year and a half of his second term. I don't know

00:49:57.840 how many other Americans can say that they're $4 billion richer. Elon Musk. That's it. But he's

00:50:04.560 been part of this whole thing. Correct. Dismantling, using Doge to dismantle all of the

00:50:10.800 cops on the beat that would have regulated his own businesses. And then lo and behold, he's a

00:50:15.100 trillionaire. So I think the biggest con that we have seen thus far is him wielding this idea of

00:50:23.440 economic populism when he had no intention of ever delivering for people. And I think that's

00:50:31.540 something we have to be very careful with because now you're going to leave a lot of people

00:50:36.620 disillusioned in his wake. And if Democrats, again, are fortunate enough to take power in

00:50:43.380 the aftermath of this administration, they will have been disillusioned by Trump and Republicans.

00:50:49.480 They will be willing to give one last shot to a Democratic Party that can either deliver or not.

00:50:55.340 And if they don't, then people are going to give up. People are going to give up on government

00:51:01.400 ever being able to deliver. They're going to give up on democracy. I mean, talk about the conditions

00:51:05.720 for demagoguery to thrive. So that's why we're in such a precarious moment. And we will be in

00:51:11.520 a precarious moment, because I don't think that these moments come around often where you can 0.99

00:51:14.780 either, you know, shit or get off the pot. And and they're already at their wits end after seeing 0.99

00:51:20.880 an administration that that swore up and down it would deliver for the little guy only to

00:51:25.420 completely bowl them over. If they look at the Democrats and they can't do what they're saying,

00:51:31.620 no one's going to have faith that government can work. Are you of you know, there's there's sort

00:51:36.860 the brand nostalgia, which Trump make America great again, cryptid again from Ronald Reagan.

00:51:42.840 So he sold nostalgia, sort of pre-1960s world. And you write about that. Some folks are selling

00:51:49.140 democratic socialism. Some folks continue to sell the status quo, but just do it better.

00:51:55.900 Yeah. That somehow we can not, you know, fail more efficiently, or maybe we can just fail more

00:52:02.580 efficiently. I mean, what is your sort of brand of renewal when you talk about sort of having a

00:52:08.680 resurgent Democratic Party? What does that brand look like? Or do you just dismiss these false

00:52:16.600 labels? Yeah, I think more toward the latter. Look, I'm not a Democratic socialist. I'm not

00:52:21.980 an institutionalist. I am a pragmatic progressive, I guess, would be the label. But I don't really

00:52:28.020 care about the label. I just think that like, I have, I have disdain for a lot of the self-imposed

00:52:34.160 guardrails that we've placed on ourselves. Um, I have some ideas that I think are, are uber

00:52:40.180 progressive. I mean, I, I'm, you know, I, I want to see Medicare for all. I think it's insane that

00:52:46.420 we are the only industrialized country in the world that, that doesn't, um, have healthcare

00:52:50.780 for all of its citizens. I lived in France for two years. I know what it's like to be able to

00:52:55.120 get sick and go to the doctor i also know what it's like for them you know i was i was teaching

00:52:59.600 at a at a high school and then and then a college and the people in charge of the programs have

00:53:04.280 dealt with americans before and they had to come in when we first arrived in france and say if you

00:53:09.520 get sick it's okay to go to the doctor or the hospital because americans wouldn't go because

00:53:14.640 we would say like you know if you get sick like you just suck it up you know you just bandage it

00:53:19.800 back together slap uh slap some medicine on it and like keep going because you don't we have this

00:53:25.660 mentality that like okay we don't want to bankrupt ourselves and they're like you can go to the

00:53:30.380 hospital you can go to the doctor it's okay like it's included you know we live in a country we're

00:53:36.120 like it's a it's a we're you know it's it's um this is uh this is the future you know and so

00:53:43.740 So, you know, there's that.

00:53:47.700 I'm an advocate for the Green New Deal.

00:53:49.380 I think you want to talk about existential.

00:53:51.340 We have climate change bearing down on us.

00:53:54.560 That's a bigger problem that we're contending with than anything else.

00:53:58.060 I love that you included that.

00:53:59.320 I'm going to get to that in a moment because it's, you know,

00:54:02.020 and I can assure you just from all the political people out there,

00:54:05.040 you don't need to talk about that anymore.

00:54:06.740 It doesn't pull very well.

00:54:08.220 People don't want to talk about climate change.

00:54:09.820 The fact you wrote about it I think is incredibly important.

00:54:12.160 I want to get to that.

00:54:12.800 But this notion, I keep referring, and you and I have talked about democracy, our republic,

00:54:17.600 250th anniversary, this notion of rule of law being replaced by the rule of Don, the

00:54:22.900 blank checks and balances, the supine Congress aspects in your book, and we certainly align

00:54:27.860 in the desperate need for real reforms, particularly in the court and in Congress as well.

00:54:34.220 But this issue of democratize, back to the con in the economy, that for decades and decades

00:54:39.420 it hasn't been working for working folks.

00:54:40.920 And you referenced that 40%.

00:54:42.720 I've seen even higher stats than that of people who can't afford $400 emergency bill. 0.75

00:54:47.680 But people running in place, 30-year-olds not doing better than their family, first 0.51

00:54:51.440 time in the history of this country.

00:54:53.640 That's blinking five alarm fire.

00:54:56.340 And we haven't subsequently addressed that.

00:54:58.480 Democrats, with respect, we have to recognize we cannot continue to do what we've done and

00:55:04.120 expect a different result.

00:55:05.060 So democratizing the economy seems to me the same fight as saving our democracy.

00:55:13.260 Yet there's almost an argument that they're too different.

00:55:16.160 Like, let's stop talking about resistance, which Mark Elias in your opening suggests

00:55:20.760 he doesn't even like the word anyway, which is interesting, which I appreciate it, and

00:55:23.980 focus more on renewal.

00:55:25.040 But where are you just this notion of democratizing the economy, more radically thinking about

00:55:31.720 Obviously, $7.25 minimum wage in 20 states, that's insanity that that still persists and exists.

00:55:38.780 Tax codes, debates out here on wealth taxes, death taxes, state taxes, stepped-up bases.

00:55:46.280 Where are you in all that thinking?

00:55:48.340 I mean, how should we be thinking, Democrats, about tax policy, about modernizing this economy to make it work for more folks?

00:55:57.440 I mean, look, you look at when this country was most prosperous.

00:56:00.500 We had sky high top marginal tax rates.

00:56:04.200 You look at, you know, it's the great irony of Trump using the Make America Great Again

00:56:09.780 slogan is like, when you think about the era that he wants to hearken back to, it's an

00:56:15.520 era of like, what, the 50s and, you know, 1950s?

00:56:18.620 Like, what was the top marginal tax rate in the 1950s?

00:56:20.780 70 plus percent, 80 some places.

00:56:23.000 And so, you know, that's like this notion that we need to be heaping tax cuts onto corporations that are making record profits and gutting the highest marginal tax rates and starving us of federal tax revenue so that we can gut all of the programs that people rely on to survive.

00:56:48.260 This is not a healthier America than we've had in the past.

00:56:52.340 And I think it's directly correlated to the fact that we're not offering services to our own people. I mean, this isn't rocket science. You look at the happiest countries in the world, and those are countries that adequately tax their citizens, but also have programs that actually work.

00:57:10.200 Not just taxing their citizens so that they can dump that money into the glut of the federal reserves that won't work for its own people or just heap more money into the military-industrial complex or whatever projects Trump and Republicans are engaged in right now that don't actually help regular people.

00:57:35.940 So it's an it's an all the above approach. But I think it starts. I mean, look, California is a good example of a progressive tax structure. I know that you've spoken at length, including I think you did a great job in your in your debate against both Ron DeSantis and Sean Hannity on Fox News, where, you know, you you explain to them what a progressive tax structure is and how it's different from what they have in Texas and Florida.

00:58:03.940 The most regressive two tax states in America that tax their low-wage workers more than we tax our high-wage workers.

00:58:10.800 So, again, simple question.

00:58:12.220 Who is the high-tax state?

00:58:14.080 Who are you for?

00:58:15.000 This notion, though, of Medicare for all, I want to go back to because I think it's so important.

00:58:18.680 It's inevitable from my perspective.

00:58:20.760 It's just that the economics, the econ, it just doesn't work.

00:58:24.080 I mean, as a private sector guy, I've got a bunch of private employees.

00:58:27.220 I mean, as a business, it's not working.

00:58:29.640 Obviously, you look at the cost growth in government and that Medicaid debates. 0.94

00:58:33.120 we're having medicare and the outcomes and the outcomes so dumb as we want to be the challenge 0.54

00:58:38.520 is and this is the challenge just purely one of pragmatic political reality and you're back to 0.87

00:58:44.680 being a pragmatic progressive which i like as well that frame um how the hell do you do it

00:58:50.280 without taking something away that people have come to enjoy for generations and that's their

00:58:55.460 private health insurance yeah look i think maybe you have a you have a transition period um but i

00:59:02.420 I think half of the battle is selling it.

00:59:05.300 And I think that you have to be ready to pounce

00:59:07.280 because you have a Republican Party

00:59:08.620 that has every tool at their disposal

00:59:10.100 to be able to frame something

00:59:12.660 in any way they want to.

00:59:15.640 I mean, they framed Obamacare,

00:59:17.720 which is one of the most popular pieces of life,

00:59:20.700 so popular that Republicans

00:59:22.940 with full control of government

00:59:24.420 and zero respect for any institutions 0.81

00:59:26.960 still can't make Obamacare go away.

00:59:30.160 You know, they've tried, what, 77 times to overturn Obamacare, to repeal and replace Obamacare?

00:59:35.260 But in a week or so, Trump's coming out with a new plan, right?

00:59:37.920 Well, that's actually two weeks.

00:59:39.200 Two weeks.

00:59:39.720 Excuse me.

00:59:40.200 I don't want to be unfair.

00:59:41.360 I want to correct that because I don't want to end up on your list, which we'll get to

00:59:45.420 at the end of our podcast in a moment.

00:59:47.340 So I think that you have to be ready to sell this thing.

00:59:51.220 But look, I think at its core, people recognize in a way that I don't think they did back

00:59:58.720 in 2010, the failures of our healthcare system, especially with the advent of social media,

01:00:05.160 there are just endless, literally endless examples of this healthcare system failing

01:00:12.240 Americans. And the amount that we pay, the outcomes that we get, the brokenness of,

01:00:20.420 and the predatory nature of health insurance companies, I mean, all of it is so well known

01:00:26.800 that I think that we're in a moment where different from 2010, there is not this nostalgia

01:00:31.900 or this blind deference to the status quo. And so will there be pushback? Absolutely. But in very

01:00:40.020 much the same way that Medicare is likely the most popular social program in the United States,

01:00:46.920 Obamacare, one of the most popular. So like these programs where there are reforms to make

01:00:53.280 healthcare more accessible. If past is prologue, we have a lot to learn from moving in that

01:00:59.240 direction. But again, I think you have an entire generation of people for whom adequate healthcare

01:01:06.040 is so out of reach that we need a radical change in that arena. Look, this is life or death,

01:01:13.420 literally. And I think people are ready for it in a way that they weren't in the past. I'm curious

01:01:18.500 your vantage i mean you know you were around in 2010 you were what do you think what do you think

01:01:23.540 today looks like versus when obamacare first came onto the scene well i think it more broadly this

01:01:28.740 is to my this is the 30s this is the 60s i mean this is about order of magnitude change i think

01:01:33.420 we're in sort of tectonic plates of you know something profound and this is at the core of

01:01:38.740 that and look i'm a practitioner everything my burden has been that i've been um accountable

01:01:45.960 to the consequences of our policy decisions

01:01:50.440 and accountable when I wake up the next day to the voters.

01:01:54.360 And so I'm in the how business.

01:01:55.780 It's so different than a think tank.

01:01:57.360 I love everybody out there in Congress

01:01:58.940 that have never had an executive role,

01:02:00.780 that have never had the pen, the paper,

01:02:02.480 and accountable to that guy.

01:02:03.720 But I've also done more in healthcare

01:02:04.800 than any governor in the United States history,

01:02:06.520 period, full stop, not even close,

01:02:08.480 regardless of preexisting condition,

01:02:10.020 ability to pay,

01:02:10.500 and regardless of your immigration status,

01:02:12.200 getting pummeled on the right

01:02:14.200 Yeah. From our expansion for health care for those without documentation. And I delivered that when I was mayor, not just as governor of California, promoted it. And I'm consistent. I lived up to my word. As imperfect as the system is, we also have done a lot in the single payer financing framework with $11 incident, not subsidizing costs, but lowering costs, doing a lot to address cost escalation with a new office of health care affordability and numeric goals and more transparency in this space, et cetera.

01:02:44.020 I don't want to belabor the point. But again, when I think of the tectonic plate on Medicare

01:02:48.520 and how you actually implement something of that consequence, I'm back into the political

01:02:56.560 pragmatism of it and how you can sell it. And that goes, and forgive me, I'm answering your

01:03:02.240 question by challenging you and getting back on track on the point you make about how you sell it

01:03:07.940 and how it's communicated in a world of Brendan Carr's FCC.

01:03:13.380 Every day in Ontario, a shelter worker will help someone fleeing violence.

01:03:17.500 A child therapist will help a kid in crisis.

01:03:20.380 A support worker will help a person with disabilities live a full life in their community.

01:03:24.740 They and countless other workers show up for Ontarians every single day.

01:03:29.480 But the Ford government's cuts have left workers with no choice but to go on strike.

01:03:33.740 Today, workers are on the picket lines fighting for their communities and the services we all depend on.

01:03:38.940 Now it's our turn to show up for them.

01:03:40.680 Visit worthfightingfor.ca to show your support.

01:03:43.380 Hey, I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb.

01:03:47.780 Together, we're going to have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people,

01:03:53.080 like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges.

01:03:57.600 I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer,

01:04:00.620 and that was more difficult.

01:04:02.220 There's a lot of people who understand postpartum depression.

01:04:04.540 I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety.

01:04:06.840 Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app,

01:04:10.460 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:04:13.380 My first guest is Paris Houghton, Shakira, Luke and Yerin, Samira and Gracie.

01:04:23.380 I'm so excited.

01:04:24.380 On a bouncy bed.

01:04:25.380 You have surprises.

01:04:26.380 Many surprises.

01:04:28.380 Welcome to Suite 305, where the group chat comes to life.

01:04:31.380 What up, ****? 0.72

01:04:33.380 It's like a way to say, 0.99

01:04:35.380 Hello, friend. Hello, best friend. Hello, sister.

01:04:37.380 What up, ****?

01:04:38.380 Look, I've never talked to anyone. 0.98

01:04:40.380 Except with my children. My children know.

01:04:42.380 My kids do know.

01:04:45.400 Sé mi amante.

01:04:47.000 Uf.

01:04:48.480 Punch.

01:04:49.180 Qué increíble.

01:04:49.860 Ya, la telenovela.

01:04:51.200 You're the only person I know that loves a yellow starburst.

01:04:54.460 It's lemonade.

01:04:55.760 No hay alguien que te falta, como que tú dices,

01:04:58.360 me gustaría colaborar con esta persona.

01:05:02.660 This is Sweet 305.

01:05:04.760 Listen to Sweet 305 with Lele Pons

01:05:07.260 as part of my Cultura Podcast Network

01:05:09.360 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast,

01:05:11.700 or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:05:14.320 This is Michael Rappaport, and my podcast,

01:05:16.920 the I Am Rappaport Stereo Podcast,

01:05:18.860 is unlike any one you've ever heard.

01:05:21.460 We're a variety show, and if you're looking for strong opinions,

01:05:24.680 funny opinions about sports, entertainment, politics, pop culture,

01:05:29.120 and whatever else catches my attention, then subscribe now.

01:05:33.340 This kid, Jafar Jackson, is as good as Rami Malek, as Freddie Mercury,

01:05:38.680 and it's as good as

01:05:40.440 Timothee Chalamet

01:05:41.400 as Bob Dylan

01:05:44.500 and I say that with love and respect

01:05:46.580 for both of those actors

01:05:47.700 and I don't know how many Oscar nominations

01:05:50.020 they give out

01:05:50.820 I don't know if it's 5, 6 for best actor

01:05:52.620 150% this kid Jafar Jackson

01:05:56.280 should absolutely positively

01:05:58.600 get nominated

01:05:59.940 for his portrayal as Michael Jackson

01:06:02.000 Listen to I Am Rappaport

01:06:03.880 on the iHeartRadio app

01:06:05.420 Apple Podcasts

01:06:06.480 or wherever you get your podcasts

01:06:08.340 in a world where the news has been brought to you by

01:06:19.060 kellogg's palantir and yeah yeah no i remember the old days you know the news brought to you by

01:06:28.760 you know you know defense industries incorporated uh yeah this consolidation of the news and how

01:06:34.500 the hell do you sell in a world of clips you're an expert this is your expertise but not just in

01:06:42.360 a world of clicks it's the algorithms and who decides which clicks click and the concentration

01:06:47.520 in that space concentration where you saw the tenga deal sinclair why are we talking about that

01:06:52.620 more 6.2 billion dollars brendan carr made an exemption 39 cap that is the statute for household

01:07:00.460 Every day in Ontario, a shelter worker will help someone fleeing violence.

01:07:05.260 A child therapist will help a kid in crisis.

01:07:08.140 A support worker will help a person with disabilities live a full life in their community.

01:07:12.500 They and countless other workers show up for Ontarians every single day.

01:07:17.240 But the Ford government's cuts have left workers with no choice but to go on strike.

01:07:21.480 Today, workers are on the picket lines fighting for their communities and the services we all depend on.

01:07:26.700 Now it's our turn to show up for them.

01:07:28.440 Visit worthfightingfor.ca to show your support.

01:07:31.400 Hey, I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb.

01:07:35.520 Together, we're going to have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people.

01:07:40.840 Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges.

01:07:45.360 I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer.

01:07:48.420 And that was more difficult.

01:07:49.980 There's a lot of people who understand postpartum depression.

01:07:52.300 I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety.

01:07:54.260 Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:08:04.500 My first guest is Paris Houghton, Shakira, Luke and Yerin, Samira and Gracie.

01:08:11.320 I'm so excited.

01:08:12.480 On the bouncy bed.

01:08:13.600 You have surprises.

01:08:15.040 Many surprises.

01:08:16.740 Welcome to Sweet 305, where the group chat comes to life. 0.99

01:08:19.840 What a f***. 0.98

01:08:21.020 It's like a way to say, 0.99

01:08:23.020 hello, friend, hello, best friend, hello, sister.

01:08:25.020 What up?

01:08:26.020 Look, I've never talked to anyone.

01:08:28.020 Except with my children.

01:08:30.020 My children know.

01:08:32.020 Yes.

01:08:33.020 Be my love.

01:08:34.020 Oh.

01:08:35.020 Oh.

01:08:36.020 Oh.

01:08:37.020 That's incredible.

01:08:38.020 Yeah, the telenovela.

01:08:39.020 You're the only person I know that loves a yellow starburst.

01:08:42.020 It's lemon.

01:08:43.020 When there's someone who's missing you,

01:08:45.020 you say, I'd like to collaborate with this person.

01:08:48.020 this is sweet 305 listen to sweet 305 with lele pons as part of my cultura podcast network on the

01:08:57.560 iheart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts this is michael rapaport and

01:09:03.860 my podcast the i am rapaport stereo podcast is unlike anyone you've ever heard we're a variety

01:09:09.880 show and if you're looking for strong opinions funny opinions about sports entertainment politics

01:09:16.100 pop culture and whatever else catches my attention then subscribe now this kid Jafar

01:09:22.040 Jackson is as good as Rami Malek as Freddie Mercury and it's as good as Timothee Chalamet

01:09:29.160 as Bob Dylan and I say that with love and respect for both of those actors and I don't know how

01:09:36.400 many Oscar nominations they give out I don't know if it's five six for best actor 150 percent this

01:09:42.980 Kid Jafar Jackson should absolutely, positively get nominated for his portrayal as Michael Jackson.

01:09:50.380 Listen to I Am Rappaport on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

01:09:56.080 I Am Rappaport Podcast.

01:10:01.020 You cannot have more than 39% concentration of news, local programming,

01:10:09.300 And he decided to waive that to provide 80% for a merger between Sinclair, those are the people that, I'm sorry, did not bring you, but took Kimmel off the air, and Tenga.

01:10:22.900 And we're not talking about that.

01:10:25.760 I know we're talking about CBS, Paramount, CNN, but what's happening underneath to me seems even more insidious.

01:10:32.120 so let's talk about the news you've been out on the forefront challenging that status quo

01:10:37.720 building your three podcasts no lie with brian dylan calling one of the biggest the best uh

01:10:44.140 had massive success you brought i mean you get how the hell you've had all these presidents on 0.78

01:10:49.780 your damn show biden came on the first youtube yeah i mean so i'm talking to the right guy 0.94

01:10:54.900 you wrote about it let's talk about communication let's talk about the news give me your overview 0.99

01:11:00.180 Yeah, I mean, look, we are in a in a precarious moment right now. But I do think that having some investment in left of center media is going to be essential, especially with the consolidation that we're seeing to deliver on all to deliver on all of this, especially with the consolidation that we're seeing right now.

01:11:19.380 We have every we have every card stacked against us because not only is is does the not only has the right invested so much time, energy, resources and money in their openly Republican, openly conservative media.

01:11:38.880 I mean, openly propaganda-aligned media.

01:11:43.260 I mean, they have, you know, Daily Wire, Daily Caller, Megyn Kelly, Alex Jones, Tucker Carlson, OAN, Newsmax, Fox News.

01:11:52.440 These are avowed Republican right-wing outlets.

01:11:55.680 And the antidote to that for so long is, quote-unquote, liberal media that so often takes their cues from the right.

01:12:03.520 I mean, how many cover stories did we have about Hillary's emails in the lead-up to the 2016 election?

01:12:07.780 So I think that, you know, there has been this complacency on the left where we're like, okay, well, you know what, we deal in facts. And so we don't need to have any investment in independent media because we've got CNN, we've got ABC, we've got CBS.

01:12:25.900 And now we're seeing that those those news outlets are only as durable as the leadership decides that they are. They're only as fair and neutral as the leadership decides that they are. And now with the leadership, obviously looking the way it does, suddenly, you know, the veil has been lifted.

01:12:42.880 And so I think we need to, I mean, we talked earlier about the right investing decades in advance of what the left catches up on. We need to invest quickly, as quickly as humanly possible in left of center media and progressive media, avowedly so.

01:13:02.520 And so, you know, I think that that's what I try to do.

01:13:06.620 I mean, people ask, you know, they see a young guy who's interested in politics.

01:13:10.500 So like, when are you going to run for office?

01:13:11.840 I'm like, I'm not.

01:13:13.480 This is the space.

01:13:14.700 Like the media space, I think, is in some ways more important because that's how you

01:13:19.240 inform people of what's going on.

01:13:20.660 And I think there's people who are much smarter, more competent, more adept at me at doing

01:13:25.920 legislation.

01:13:26.540 And that's great.

01:13:27.360 And that's what they should be doing.

01:13:28.400 But if you can't let people know what's going on, if you can't sell this stuff to people, if you can't message to people in a way that makes politics accessible, then you're not going to have any buy-in from the general population.

01:13:42.500 And so I think that this is the most important frontier in politics.

01:13:46.440 It's why I've dedicated my life to this space and the independent media space.

01:13:50.680 It's why I take no vacations.

01:13:54.160 I work 365 days a year.

01:13:55.940 um i'm a i'm a blasted date just ask my girlfriend and uh but but i think i think this is i think

01:14:03.400 this space is is uh is the most important space right now in terms of in terms of what 2026 and

01:14:11.080 2028 look like you i mean you you were not critical you you were right to observe um the frustrations

01:14:19.040 uh during the biden years i mean when you had these landmark legislative victories yeah 400

01:14:24.700 of bipartisan bills you had all these uh i mean remarkable successes on the infrastructure bill

01:14:29.780 and obviously chips and science acts and the work you did with the ira and the environment

01:14:33.920 that was next level um in terms of performing on the legislative front but not on the communication

01:14:39.940 front no one connected any uh they you would ask them what is what did biden do they'd be hard

01:14:45.260 pressed right remember a damn thing that was just a few years ago totally i mean if a tree falls in

01:14:49.780 woods right and so i think i think but is it biden's fault or is it our fault i mean trump 0.96

01:14:56.300 is triumphed 24 7 on these grievance networks they come in in their hardware i watch look

01:15:00.940 you got the daily wire goes to the california post california post goes to the new york post

01:15:06.300 new york post goes to you know the five the five goes to the lineup of the prime time news

01:15:12.440 a host all three of them right to the oval goes right to the oval office and then we get fox and

01:15:16.880 friends and now and you know and then you got this guy chris ruffo one of the great you know

01:15:21.540 greats um in the manhattan institute and they write all these things and it's just sort of

01:15:25.840 circular ecosystem the sewer that has a presidential seal uh and gold leaf now yeah trained no swap

01:15:34.120 um with respect you know i don't see that on msm you're you're a contributor i don't see that on

01:15:42.700 MS. I sure as hell don't see it on CNN. I don't see it anywhere. There is no infrastructure on

01:15:48.880 the left. So how do you compete with that, man? You build it and you build it quickly and you make

01:15:52.960 sure that there is buy-in from the elected officials at the top to recognize what the

01:15:58.840 media environment looks like right now. I mean, you're a sitting governor and we're doing

01:16:03.840 independent media right now. I mean, that- Situational awareness. Hold on. And I'm with

01:16:09.260 you wait a second that deserves some credit i don't think that this kind of thing would happen

01:16:13.720 two years ago three years ago so i think it's important to stand up this infrastructure

01:16:20.260 recognize um the media environment that we're operating in but but you're right i mean like

01:16:24.900 these conspiracy theories on the right start from like uh what is it uh uh zero hedge is that

01:16:31.300 like one of these conspiracy websites i wish i had my phone i can go through that i have like

01:16:36.160 I tracked 10 of these.

01:16:37.480 Yeah.

01:16:37.940 Unbelievable.

01:16:38.940 So, I mean, look, and you can do it in a virtuous way, but you need the infrastructure there.

01:16:44.660 And I think our, and this is not to knock legacy media because they're doing their jobs,

01:16:49.540 but it is to knock, I think, the elected officials who for so long have refused to lend credence

01:16:57.580 or validate a lot of the other media outlets in this ecosystem that would allow us to compete.

01:17:03.980 You know, even during the campaign, during the 2024 campaign, and this is not to knock Kamala Harris, I'm sure that she didn't know what was going on, but like I had tried to have her sit down on my show and, you know, granted it was 107 day sprint, but to have her try to come on my show and there wasn't a lot of focus on independent media.

01:17:28.800 And that was a moment where you've got 107 days, you've got a lot of, and I'm not even saying this for myself, you've got a lot of independent media outlets who are looking for validation and could have given her stamp of approval to a lot of people.

01:17:41.500 Trump did. Trump made a lot of people. Diamond and Silk? You think Diamond and Silk are going to be anybody if they didn't have Trump? But you create these people by hugging them, by giving them your stamp of approval so that they can then go about doing the work, newly minted, thanks to you, the other 364 days a year.

01:18:03.720 And that investment in independent media is so difficult to get because Democrats rely on legacy media outlets. Because for us, I think we see that they deal solely in facts. They have journalistic ethics. And that's not to say that independent media can't and shouldn't have both of those things because we should.

01:18:21.640 But we have to recognize the media environment that we're operating in and to validate some of these independent media outlets and these content creators so that they can go ahead and do the work. And these are people who have a perspective, like a progressive perspective. This is not you know, I don't operate in the same way CNN does.

01:18:40.740 I can come out and say I want to see Medicare for all. I want to see an effort to combat climate change. I want to see a more just economy and a more progressive tax structure and whatever it may be. But we need that. We need that so that we can use that to talk to broader audiences. And I think that that has been missing for so long.

01:19:05.660 And has it been missing or are we missing something? I mean, I was, I did. We won't remember it. 20 people that watched me, maybe. My first Gavin Newsom show was on current TV. I broke a hell of a lot of news, by the way. That was back then when I was, the Google glasses, Elon Musk first drive. I drove in the studio with him and damn brand new Tesla.

01:19:33.360 there was all kind but but we didn't break through we didn't build an audience ultimately 0.97

01:19:38.000 purchased by al jazeera uh gore did fine uh uh and uh i was there with uh jennifer granholm and

01:19:45.160 she had a show right after me and she was our marquee star yeah she had a great show uh but

01:19:50.540 it was we didn't break through um there's been efforts fits and starts in the past what is it

01:19:55.600 about the sort of progressive democratic even the pragmatic pragmatic frame why aren't we are we we

01:20:01.440 lack humor uh we lack hubris uh are we less entertaining what's what's been the brand

01:20:10.520 problem i mean why the hell are or are we just we already have it because we have msnbc we have

01:20:18.100 cnn so we don't do things i think in in large part it's that it's that there just was never

01:20:24.060 any um there was never any feeling that we needed to invest in any of this stuff in a real way

01:20:30.260 because we've always had it.

01:20:32.340 Because we have Kimmel, we have Colbert, we have Stewart.

01:20:35.720 But also, I do think that Democrats have a problem

01:20:38.780 on the cultural front or had a problem on the cultural front.

01:20:42.780 And so, you know, Republicans did something really smart.

01:20:47.820 They found people who might agree with them on one issue

01:20:53.820 and they were willing to bring them into the tent.

01:20:56.040 And so if they were, if you had comedians,

01:20:59.240 if you had podcasters, if you had health and wellness people that agreed with them on anything,

01:21:04.880 they're willing to welcome you in and they'll amplify you. And they'll say, oh, look, I had

01:21:09.300 this like right coded position and I espoused it online. And look at all the positive reinforcement

01:21:15.180 I got. And maybe next time I'll do it again and I'll get that positive reinforcement again.

01:21:20.300 And then you fall into the right wing rabbit hole. And I think that Democrats in large part

01:21:25.080 impose a lot of purity tests. And so if you don't check every box, then we cast you out of the tent.

01:21:32.000 And so eventually you're going to get to a point where, cut two, it's 2024, and Republicans cobble

01:21:38.740 together a coalition as ideologically imperfect, though it may be, though it was, it was big enough

01:21:46.600 to win an election. And I think that that's something that we've lost in our politics is an

01:21:52.780 understanding that at the end of the day, what politics is, is coalition building. And Obama

01:21:58.040 was a master at that, at cobbling together coalitions and recognizing that it involves

01:22:04.120 compromise and you're never going to find somebody who's perfect. And that's okay because politics

01:22:09.620 isn't about delivering you. I mean, you know, the saying, there's this saying, it's cliche at this

01:22:15.140 point, but it's not about delivering you right to your front door. It's about getting on the bus

01:22:20.120 and going to the stop closest to where you want to go.

01:22:23.380 And we are not in a position,

01:22:26.160 having lost the House, the Senate, and the White House,

01:22:29.260 and the popular vote, to be imposing any purity tests.

01:22:32.220 We have to be in the business of building coalitions

01:22:34.520 and creating alliances with people

01:22:40.780 who may not be perfect clones

01:22:44.080 of what we want to see in politics,

01:22:46.100 but are imperfect bedfellows

01:22:48.720 because that's the only way we move forward.

01:22:51.780 And I think we lost a little bit of that.

01:22:54.180 And so, you know, it's difficult in this media environment

01:22:57.420 because, you know, you misplace a modifier somewhere

01:23:00.940 and a lot of people jump down your throat.

01:23:03.200 So how, I mean, to my point, I mean,

01:23:05.800 to the prior point about, you know, clickbait

01:23:09.400 and virality and no context and, you know,

01:23:13.000 around the world in two days and then the context,

01:23:16.500 no one gave a damn about 0.99

01:23:17.420 because they're on the next goddamn thing. 0.98

01:23:20.680 This, we hardly have the, 0.99

01:23:23.060 it doesn't seem like the party's lacks judgment

01:23:26.740 or is moving backwards on the judgment chart.

01:23:32.440 It seems like we're, you know, I mean, I'm with you.

01:23:35.520 I'm for addition, not subtraction.

01:23:37.180 I'm just doing some math.

01:23:38.320 We could talk about getting rid of the electoral college,

01:23:40.120 which you do.

01:23:41.460 And, you know, we're on,

01:23:42.880 California is formally on record on that.

01:23:44.940 The National Popular Oak.

01:23:45.560 Yeah, the National Popular Oak has been for years.

01:23:47.420 And actually, that's a subject for another day, because there's actually some real shocking, real momentum in that space that needs to be illuminated more.

01:23:56.100 But look, we're seeing this play out right now.

01:23:58.840 As we speak, primary day in New York, right?

01:24:01.860 Mondami versus Jeffries, that's the frame that everybody's using.

01:24:05.400 And the left is enjoying that frame more than even the right.

01:24:08.140 I've been watching Fox. 0.64

01:24:09.120 They're interested in that, everything Mondami they're interested in. 0.83

01:24:12.000 But how about MS?

01:24:14.500 Every 12 seconds, there's a conversation.

01:24:16.480 it's jeffrey's right so so we're we're playing right into that totally totally and and look i

01:24:21.740 think my job in doing what i do is just to to hit that point over and over and over again that that

01:24:28.680 it is about coalition building and and i get especially when we're in primary season that

01:24:33.300 people are gonna um that emotions are gonna run hot and and that's okay i mean we you the elephant

01:24:38.400 in the room is obviously anything to do with israel correct yeah correct i mean and how every

01:24:42.980 back to noun pronoun adjective context you know just the trigger words yeah and then just yeah

01:24:49.080 that that's yeah that you're disqualified yeah i'm not interested in anything else you have to say

01:24:54.420 but i think if they disagree i think as we get past primaries um and uh and tensions simmer a

01:25:02.460 little bit um then the hard work becomes building that that coalition um that but that is that look

01:25:08.660 that's that's roll up your sleeves and just do the hard work every day of explaining that

01:25:12.760 process to people for whom it might not be intuitive. It's what I try to do. It's look that

01:25:17.860 that's what I view my job as being. Again, if I'm if my North Star is that politics is about

01:25:23.020 putting together coalitions, then I got to then I got to walk the walk. Right. And so when I do

01:25:28.900 my shows, when I talk to people, when I host my podcast, like that's the message that I have to

01:25:36.160 convey. And if I can, you know, convince or persuade a few people each day and make them

01:25:41.520 less likely to go nuclear if somebody isn't 100% ideologically aligned, then I feel like I've done

01:25:47.880 my job. I love that. It was so, you know, it's so resonant, this issue. And it wasn't even stated,

01:25:53.320 it was a subtext of the Obama presidential library, just being there and feeling that

01:25:57.940 and walking around the museum itself and sort of knitting together that, understanding that

01:26:03.520 coalition and the coalition building that is so much part of his narrative and so much part of

01:26:08.300 his presidency as well. And his own frustration, I think, with everybody saying, well, he didn't do

01:26:13.680 good, he didn't do enough. And that metaphor you use around the bus stop and just getting a little

01:26:17.960 bit closer. And so that's, I think it's a good way to end because it's how we began, because

01:26:23.420 it's that, that's, that's the contrast, right? Is, you know, how much are we going to lean to just

01:26:30.040 blow up this whole thing? Sort of, again, the lazy pundit, we need a Bernie Sanders, we need

01:26:35.400 know aoc we need a you know and rose trying to be in that lane versus god help us with these

01:26:41.340 corporate democrats because whatever that is that's the lazy punditry for everybody else yeah 1.00

01:26:45.940 um and uh there's just status quo aunties they're not going to blow the box so where i mean how does

01:26:50.980 you know knitting all that together figuring that out being pragmatic so we can win back to ruthless

01:27:00.460 in terms of pursuit of power yeah which i think you and i both agree in not just winning arguments

01:27:07.440 yeah having a candlelight visual holding hands yeah oh he was so wonderful yeah

01:27:15.840 but he fucking has no chance of winning yeah i i look i think that that is uh you know that's 0.51

01:27:22.860 that's i think the person who is going to uh as we look toward like who the next leader of of the 0.99

01:27:29.280 party is going to be and what the party looks like moving forward um there is going to be a need

01:27:34.380 uh you know to to find somebody who can who can cobble together that coalition and actually be

01:27:40.740 able to deliver i mean look obama obama i think is instructive because even though the aca wasn't

01:27:48.360 what he wanted um and uh initially i mean he wanted single-payer health care um and then

01:27:54.400 And then just public option, public option.

01:27:56.500 Public option.

01:27:57.520 He expended a ton of political capital in getting it done.

01:28:02.100 And I think that that could be really instructive for what needs to be done right now.

01:28:07.300 I mean, he did it to his own detriment and to Democrats' own detriment.

01:28:10.080 And now look at the extent to which it's paid off.

01:28:13.080 But that was a different world.

01:28:14.320 That was a much more status quo friendly world.

01:28:18.140 And Obama is the most popular politician in America.

01:28:23.760 and he's 10 years out of office

01:28:25.860 and he's still the most popular politician in America.

01:28:29.460 And you can make the argument

01:28:30.460 that Joe Biden had a more legislatively

01:28:32.460 accomplished presidency than Obama did.

01:28:35.200 I mean, Jefferson Sciences, the infrastructure bill.

01:28:37.320 Yeah, and just four years, certainly.

01:28:38.660 Correct.

01:28:39.640 And yet the fact that Obama was able

01:28:42.460 to expend so much political capital

01:28:44.880 to do something that was virtuous

01:28:47.120 and outside of the realm of,

01:28:51.300 you know that that that would have uh that would that would be legacy creating uh look at how that's

01:28:56.540 paid off i mean you you know we've spoken a lot throughout this conversation about about prop 50

01:29:02.640 you can see how your approval rating went up in the aftermath of that and and the conversation

01:29:10.800 around you know you running for president happened as the result of that and so i i what i what i

01:29:17.320 don't understand is how people don't see cause and effect. I mean, like you look at Obama's,

01:29:23.380 I mean, and granted Obama is, is a master at, at so many things. And so, and so back to

01:29:28.660 communication. Correct. Uh, there, there is nobody like him. Um, but, but I think, you know,

01:29:34.480 his willingness to take big swings and to try to bolster his legacy and to do something different

01:29:39.820 as opposed to just being, uh, uh, like satisfied with some, you know, small incremental steps.

01:29:47.320 You look at that and that should be instructive for the next generation of Democrats to say, what kind of a leader do I want to be? Do I want to expend political capital so that we can tinker around the edges? Or do I want to expend political capital so that I can be remembered for doing something transformational?

01:30:03.060 And on that, I want to tie up the book because, you know, I was joking about, you referred to the Green New Deal and how loaded that term is.

01:30:15.920 Green New Scan. 0.86

01:30:17.780 I'm new scum to Trump, but the Green New Scam. 0.98

01:30:23.360 Can I order three eggs scrambled, maybe poached? 1.00

01:30:29.080 Should I get over medium, over hard?

01:30:31.260 Actually, actually, over easy, but not too over easy, please.

01:30:35.620 Orders change, but eggs stay the same.

01:30:38.400 Thanks to dedicated Ontario farmers who deliver fresh, high-quality eggs every day.

01:30:43.160 And with the EQA mark, you know they come from local Ontario farms that meet the highest standards.

01:30:48.160 Oh, I know. Soft-boiled with toast for dipping.

01:30:51.380 Egg Farmers of Ontario, get cracking.

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01:33:13.880 on the iHeartRadio app

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01:33:18.360 talk about transformation um this energy transformation i think issues of debt and

01:33:28.200 entitlement i think the tectonic plates will define a debate for the next five ten years

01:33:33.280 will be issues around debt and entitlement which we don't talk enough about uh issues that related

01:33:37.580 demographics in that respect uh obviously for me the issue of energy and climate change thank you

01:33:44.400 for including it in here and then ai and democracy and the relationship to democratizing our economy

01:33:50.280 so we can save democracy uh that being sort of a three-legged stool of consciousness for me the way

01:33:55.020 i frame a lot of issues so this issue of energy and climate change climate change is something

01:33:59.980 it's almost verboten people are not talking about it they're not writing about it yeah you wrote

01:34:04.340 about it and i appreciate you writing about it because there's no democratic thermometers no 0.97

01:34:09.740 there's no republican thermometer yeah we're getting mugged by reality every goddamn day 0.84

01:34:14.020 it's an insurance crisis it's a housing crisis directly connected it's a financial crisis 0.98

01:34:18.780 because it's becoming uninsurable to build homes yeah let alone insure your home if if i get kicked

01:34:25.880 off my insurance uh state farm in california i won't be able to get reinsured yes by by state

01:34:30.800 farm they they if you are not already benefiting from insurance that was grandfathered in you're

01:34:36.080 not getting and you think it's bad here go to florida go to the gulf states go to louisiana

01:34:39.880 I even go up to Montana.

01:34:40.900 I was up in Montana.

01:34:42.120 I didn't realize what a crisis was even up there.

01:34:45.200 Look, I got involved in politics because of climate change.

01:34:48.140 That's my number one issue, which is, you know, I guess uncommon today.

01:34:53.420 And I understand.

01:34:54.400 Like, I'm fortunate enough to be in a position where health care is not my number one issue

01:34:59.140 because I'm contending with some, you know, because I'm immunocompromised and need access

01:35:03.960 to health care that I can't get.

01:35:05.080 I recognize how fortunate I am so that climate change can be my number one issue.

01:35:09.540 but that is what drew me to politics. And the notion, I mean, talk about tinkering around the

01:35:14.820 edges, like we're having thousand year storms six times a year at this point. And so what are we

01:35:21.300 doing? You know, like the, the, the thing that I think is so ironic is a lot of these Republicans,

01:35:27.160 especially these like Christian nationalists talk about the preservation of like, of, of their 0.55

01:35:33.340 heritage and the white race. So you want to talk about preservation? Like the planet's on fire

01:35:40.860 right now. That is the issue that you should be- Traditions, lifestyles, places,

01:35:47.180 wrong off the map, memories, Greenville, California, and Grizzly Flats, Paradise,

01:35:52.920 California. I mean, places, lifestyles, traditions. Thank you for using that language because it's

01:36:00.200 exactly right it's about our tradition it's about our heritage it's about our history and then if

01:36:04.500 you have a creator bone in you and if you believe in the spirit and you believe in something bigger

01:36:08.780 than yourselves i mean talk about what we've been endowed that connects us to 10 000 generations

01:36:14.120 yeah i also think like you know for obviously a major issue that has that had a huge impact in

01:36:22.760 2024 is immigration you think that that issue is not going to be exacerbated by climate change you

01:36:26.980 think it's bad in 2024? Wait and see what it looks like in 2028. Wait and see what it looks 0.59

01:36:31.220 like in 2032. So, I mean, we are like, you know, I know that I'm advocating against tinkering

01:36:38.780 around the edges. There is no issue where tinkering around the edges has more consequences

01:36:45.340 than when you're dealing with climate change, or I should say not dealing with climate change.

01:36:49.920 And it is this blind deference to, you know, I would watch like Don't Look Up, and it's the

01:36:56.440 perfect allegory to what we're dealing with. I just saw it again. I mean, just monetizing our

01:37:02.260 demise is what we're doing. I mean, like by heaping more tax subsidies and entrenching

01:37:08.760 our reliance on fossil fuels at a time where we need to have transition to renewable energy

01:37:15.960 yesterday. We need to have transition to renewable energy a decade ago. Abundant,

01:37:20.760 less costly doesn't have to go through the straight of her moose yeah the sun does not

01:37:26.600 raise in price yeah we can capture the wind we can store the sun and batteries are the game changer

01:37:32.600 large-scale batteries i mean like you want to talk about a generation of leaders we we somewhere

01:37:38.860 out there we have the next democratic slate of democratic leaders because i know it's not going

01:37:45.060 to be republicans who are willing to do this but we have a slate of democratic leaders who are going

01:37:48.920 to save the world. And, and I don't even mean that, um, uh, uh, hyperbolically like right now

01:37:57.060 we're, we're trending in the wrong direction and someone's going to step in and take a big swing

01:38:02.120 and do what needs to be done and not worry about what it looks like to focus group this stuff

01:38:07.320 before it happens. I love that, man. Yeah. Thank you. And that's the point. I mean,

01:38:12.100 I guess I'm reiterating. I was sort of triggered. I've been triggered by the lack of consciousness

01:38:16.140 and focus uh at least or conversation and focus in my party on the on this fundamental issue and 0.99

01:38:21.220 meanwhile this guy this son of a bitch trump is now literally subsidizing with your money my money 0.98

01:38:26.140 you're collectively our money uh these companies that had deals on wind programs that now are 1.00

01:38:34.000 getting paid to back out of those contracts and double down on stupid yeah on dirtier cleaner 0.99

01:38:39.660 less efficient effective uh technology that has literally geopolitically put us in this quagmire 0.99

01:38:45.960 and iran yeah those i mean the idea that we'd ever do business with those companies ever again

01:38:50.640 is beyond me as well but anyway forgive me the issues as well geopolitical security in the 0.81

01:38:56.440 context of china kicking our ass dominating the electric vehicle place dominating the supply 0.91

01:39:01.540 chains it's statecraft they're flooding this all around the globe all of the solar companies are 0.99

01:39:07.480 top solar companies are chinese all of the uh renewable energy and biden was making progress

01:39:13.480 on this. He was moving the needle on this. And this guy is, and Democrats are complicit now

01:39:18.940 because we're not screaming and yelling about this. We're not writing about it, but you are

01:39:23.360 in the day after, which I appreciate. So no, thank you for that. And I just want to close

01:39:28.700 because I want to just sort of wrap everything up. We've got prologue, epilogue. In the end,

01:39:34.380 you talk about this notion of sort of a reckoning and accounting of sorts that we have to sort of

01:39:39.460 going up to, you know, I use the word complicity,

01:39:42.880 that society becomes how we behave.

01:39:45.720 All of this happened on our watch.

01:39:48.680 Again, we're not by standards in this world.

01:39:51.080 So this notion of taking a real hard look,

01:39:54.900 the Democratic Party attempted to do that with this forensics.

01:40:00.380 Did we?

01:40:01.800 I was looking at you longingly.

01:40:05.900 I was like, help me.

01:40:07.120 I don't know what the right word is.

01:40:08.340 Yeah, attempted is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

01:40:10.580 What do you, I don't want to go down that rabbit hole,

01:40:13.200 but I can't help it in the context of your four-stage recovery,

01:40:16.620 which you talked, but one of the recovery steps

01:40:19.280 is sort of acknowledge, you know, you got to be truthful

01:40:23.580 about what you did wrong, how we screwed things up.

01:40:26.800 What's your takeaways with, you know,

01:40:29.020 and I don't even want to get into the demerits or demerits

01:40:32.380 of what they tried to do with this forensic thing,

01:40:35.040 but what are your takeaways in the last election?

01:40:38.340 some of it i think is is factors outside of our control i think that frankly any democrat who ran

01:40:50.320 in an election cycle where inflation was bearing down to the extent that it was was going to lose

01:40:56.340 certainly a democrat who you know wasn't willing to distance herself to the extent that i think

01:41:01.960 she needed to from biden um because then then you own the economic environment that people are

01:41:09.520 rebelling against i don't want to cut you off but i am curious how how do you do that you were

01:41:15.260 standing right next to him as vice president yeah without back to news without creating your own

01:41:21.660 hurricane cycle of news saying well where the hell were you why were you standing there applauding

01:41:25.780 why didn't you say anything at the same time why didn't you contradict him up there uh on the stand

01:41:31.380 Yeah. Look, I can't begin to imagine what it's like to have to be in a position where I'm disavowing my partner, the president of the United States, someone whose administration I'm continuing to serve in. But I think it's what needed to be done.

01:41:48.660 J.D. Vance going to do it?

01:41:49.840 No, he's also not doing it. I mean, the best that he's got is planting stories in Politico,

01:41:55.980 saying that he is the lone skeptic in the room as it relates to Iran, as he sits there

01:42:02.700 on his knees right next to Trump every step of the way.

01:42:05.860 That's right. I've got those knee pads right back here for him.

01:42:08.580 So like, you know, clearly both sides are not willing to do that, to do what needs to be done

01:42:14.460 to create that distance.

01:42:16.060 So that was one.

01:42:17.220 And that is an external factor.

01:42:19.480 And that was sort of the view argument. So this notion of inflation and the incumbency connection.

01:42:24.940 I think also, you know, and I know that this one has been kind of pundited to death, but the specificity of the things that we're offering to people, this idea that, OK, if you are a first time home buyer who grew up, you know, in the northwestern section of the United States and you have two kids, both of them have brown hair, like you're eligible for this.

01:42:49.480 alone. I mean, you know, it's I think we're in a moment where people are, again, so disillusioned

01:42:56.380 with what government has to offer that if you're not looking at big transformative policies that

01:43:01.560 people are desperate for, thirsting for, then you're going to miss the forest through the trees

01:43:05.900 like that might have worked in a bygone era. But Trump has shown, again, that you can barrel

01:43:11.080 through a lot of these institutions that Democrats continue to view as sacred. And and it's not going

01:43:18.420 to be, you know, some first time homebuyer loan for some certain subset of people that's really

01:43:24.700 going to be like, you know, 0.03 percent of the population, people are hurting out there. And so

01:43:29.980 and so I think that I think that it needs to be a transformative look at at what is working in our

01:43:36.240 politics and and what is not. And the Democratic Party wasn't ready or willing to do that. I know

01:43:42.600 that this boils down into like, you know, it is a lot of corporate Democrats who want to preserve

01:43:47.340 the status quo, who aren't willing to recognize the pain their constituents are contending with.

01:43:52.060 That's a big part of it. I do think that, you know, when we talk about the brand problems in

01:43:57.320 the party, this is not something that is going to be fixed with like a new logo. It's not something

01:44:01.860 that's going to be fixed when we start Twitter accounts or YouTube channels for politicians.

01:44:08.460 It's going to be fixed when we have politicians who are in office, who are willing to deliver

01:44:14.220 for their constituents. That's how you fix the brand. You have to do it authentically and

01:44:18.520 organically because we're in an era where people can see through that bullshit if it's not real. 0.94

01:44:22.940 So I'm not so worried about fixing the brand by hiring some branding company and making the logo 0.97

01:44:29.680 a better shade of blue. I couldn't agree with you more. You fix the brand by ushering in a new era

01:44:35.680 of Democrats who, A, are willing to step aside once they turn 90 years old. Like, come on now.

01:44:41.300 And B, who are willing to deliver for people and meet them where they are. And I think that that has to and will come organically. But it's got to do it soon. Because as I mentioned before, we are in a moment where we were given the gift of a second chance.

01:44:59.460 And that doesn't happen often. And it only came as the result of the gross, negligent incompetence of this administration, that they took this generational realignment, one, with with pretty staggering numbers, took the House, the Senate, the White House, the popular vote, the judiciary.

01:45:17.120 and because they are so corrupt, so greedy, 0.93

01:45:21.720 so engaged in self-dealing 0.99

01:45:23.860 that people are just outright disgusted

01:45:27.300 and are looking for an alternative.

01:45:29.880 We have the opportunity to be an alternative,

01:45:32.360 but if we don't deliver fast and seriously for people,

01:45:38.240 then we're going to lose a whole generation of people

01:45:41.040 who are up for grabs right now,

01:45:43.600 and we can't afford to do that.

01:45:44.880 Couldn't agree with you more on all that.

01:45:46.120 I want to close on this. A lot of folks talk about just turning the page. I skipped over

01:45:55.720 your chapter on the DOJ. We discussed aspects of it. But this notion of accountability,

01:46:03.280 is that part of when you talk about delivering? We also have to deliver in that respect.

01:46:09.680 Yeah, a hundred percent. And I've wrestled with this a lot because, you know, in my mind, like the worst, the worst, I guess, perversion of what that could look like is, oh, you're just doing the same thing Trump is doing by going after their enemies.

01:46:28.160 But I think in this case, if you don't quell the corruption, if you don't show that there are some consequences for corrupt behavior, then all you're doing is ensuring that these people continue to engage in corruption moving forward.

01:46:43.240 And when you have a corrupt government, it inherently cannot work for regular people.

01:46:47.680 I mean, this is what it looks like.

01:46:48.680 We're living through it right now.

01:46:50.180 We are living through a government that is engaged in so much corruption.

01:46:53.420 People are sicker, hungrier, poorer than they were before.

01:46:57.340 That is the natural consequence of corruption in government. You know, whether it's something as insignificant as a no-bid contract for a reflecting pool that had to be, you know, drained and redone to something even more significant as putting, you know, billions or trillions of dollars into companies that really enrich the president's family.

01:47:18.600 Or where you have, you know, crypto coins that foreign nations are investing in.

01:47:23.780 And in turn, Trump gives better deals to those countries because they're enriching him personally.

01:47:30.780 I mean, all of this, you cannot have a healthy democracy, a functioning democracy that delivers for people if you're a corrupt government.

01:47:39.580 And so you need to deliver accountability.

01:47:41.820 And so in my mind, I'm like, okay, I don't want to become the thing that I'm railing against by saying you have to wield the DOJ effectively. But if you don't, this is what you get. And you need to send a message to people that there is zero tolerance for a lawless system because this is what lawlessness breeds.

01:48:03.640 It breeds distrust in government.

01:48:06.300 It breeds, you know, worse economic outcomes, worse national security outcomes.

01:48:12.000 So you need to walk and chew gum at the same time.

01:48:14.440 You have to have an affirmative agenda where you deliver for people and make life affordable,

01:48:19.940 usher in a just economy, take care of the issues that are screaming to be taken care

01:48:24.120 of.

01:48:24.440 But you also have to kind of reclaim this mantle of actual law and order, because without

01:48:32.380 it, you have no democracy. You have lawlessness. That is the stuff that breeds autocracy.

01:48:39.940 And I've had to check myself because it's not a weaponized government. This is what it actually

01:48:47.200 looks like to have a country that is based on laws and respect for the Constitution.

01:48:52.380 And you have to be able to do both. I love everything you said. And as much as I appreciate

01:48:59.280 the coalition building a little humility and grace um for me and i don't it has nothing to do

01:49:05.820 with me but anyone that is trying to pursue that office in 2028 that is not pursuing accountability

01:49:12.760 and ever going to be on my list yeah that to me is absolute that is table stakes yeah in terms of

01:49:20.040 what the hell's been going on and and you you you you did a wonderful job enumerating uh a dozen

01:49:25.920 examples. There's dozens and dozens of more examples, and we got two and a half years more

01:49:31.460 of this. And so this is foundational in terms of the architecture of our republic.

01:49:37.400 We can also see the extent to which it didn't work not to. I mean, again, I know we spoke

01:49:42.420 about Merrick Garland, but it's not like we have to theorize about what may happen in the event

01:49:48.700 that we don't do this. All we have to do is look at the natural consequence of Merrick Garland's

01:49:54.620 unwillingness to hold those people to account. Because again, God forbid we have any optics of

01:50:00.860 politicization. And so, you know, an unleashed Donald Trump is the natural consequence of

01:50:08.680 Merrick Garland's unwillingness to really wield the tools at his disposal and hold him accountable

01:50:13.860 for what he did. And what he did was, you know, engage in actual crimes for which

01:50:20.060 juries of his peers indicted him and were willing to hold him accountable and convicted him and so

01:50:26.300 you know this isn't this isn't weapon i know that the the both sides media will say will try and

01:50:32.680 and downplay what it was but again these were these were not this was not joe biden correct 0.99

01:50:39.180 bullshit it's bullshit and they know it's bullshit a lot of those were state prosecutors nothing to 0.99

01:50:43.020 do with the doj merrick garland's temperance was off the charts as you expect correct and our 1.00

01:50:47.320 frustration is self-evident and uh it's just both sides give me a goddamn break so with that uh take

01:50:53.880 a break and enjoy available on july 14th brian tyler cohen's next number one best-selling new

01:51:02.340 york times book the day after how to wield power in a post yes there will be a post trump world

01:51:10.680 thanks for joining us i appreciate it

01:51:17.320 This is an iHeart Podcast.

01:51:19.820 Guaranteed human.

This is Gavin Newsom - June 25, 2026

And, This Is How Democrats Lead Us To A Post Trump World With Brian Tyler Cohen

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