This is Gavin Newsom - And, This is How The Left Fails Young Men with Richard Reeves

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00:02:55.920 So if you tuned into the podcast, you may have noticed a theme, a theme that continues to emerge

00:03:01.500 around men and boys.

00:03:02.720 What is going on with our men and boys, increasingly isolated, increasingly feeling disengaged, disconnected,

00:03:09.280 depressed, big conversations with Jackson Katz and Scott Galloway, where this issue was highlighted.

00:03:15.120 We mined the issue not only on the substance as it relates to this crisis of isolation for

00:03:20.460 men and boys, but outcomes, outcomes that are moving in just devastating directions.

00:03:26.060 80% of suicides, men, dropout rates, suspension rates, disproportionately men.

00:03:32.660 You see graduation rates, particularly college attendance and graduation, going through the roof

00:03:38.000 for women and girls, but not, again, for men.

00:03:41.500 It's not just an electoral issue.

00:03:43.620 So often this is discussed in the context of Trump doing so well in the last election

00:03:48.600 with young men in the manosphere and more broadly doing well with men generally.

00:03:55.580 But the issue is an important issue that we need to dive deeper in.

00:04:00.260 And that's just what we did recently with Richard Reeves, who's the founder, the president of the

00:04:04.760 American Institute of Boys and Men.

00:04:07.980 And we had a conversation that really goes to the root of why.

00:04:12.900 What is going on, not just in the United States, but increasingly all around the world with young

00:04:19.280 men.

00:04:19.720 And this led me to look inward as well as governor of California to say, what more can I do?

00:04:26.120 And so we are also putting out today, concurrent with this podcast, an executive order that

00:04:32.160 focuses exactly on that, what to do, not just who's to blame and what the challenges are,

00:04:38.900 but specific, tangible actions that we can invest our time and energy into beginning to

00:04:46.040 solve this growing crisis.

00:04:48.080 This is Gavin Newsom.

00:04:58.520 And this is Richard Reeves.

00:05:02.280 All right, Richard Reeves, thanks so much for joining us.

00:05:05.200 And more importantly, thank you for your work.

00:05:07.160 And I'm just curious, because the amount of attention you're getting is outsized.

00:05:11.380 Obviously, people rediscovering this remarkable book that was extraordinarily well received,

00:05:16.340 of Boys and Men, when you wrote it, but now seemingly rediscovered it because it's sort

00:05:21.360 of the moment we're living in.

00:05:22.760 But I'm curious, what moment led you to this moment, meaning this whole issue around masculinity,

00:05:30.760 issues around boys and men, your own journey to being one of the most important figures in

00:05:38.860 trying to understand what the hell is going on with American men?

00:05:41.940 Yeah, well, thank you.

00:05:43.260 Thanks for that question and for having me.

00:05:44.580 I guess the way to think about it is I was spending my days at the Brookings Institution,

00:05:49.980 being a scholar, reading papers, going to seminars.

00:05:53.320 Imagine what a Brookings Institution scholar does.

00:05:56.040 And that is exactly what we do.

00:05:58.500 You read a paper, you go to a seminar, you read another paper.

00:06:02.940 And I was working on issues around economic inequality.

00:06:06.320 That's really been the through line of my work.

00:06:08.900 And in particular, intergenerational inequality, like what's stopping people moving up the ladder.

00:06:13.860 I did that in the UK government, which is where I'm originally from, and then at Brookings.

00:06:17.820 And I just kept seeing these data points where it was really a lot of boys and men,

00:06:22.600 especially those from working class backgrounds, boys and men of color, who were driving a lot

00:06:27.680 of the economic inequalities that we were worried about.

00:06:30.420 But I didn't see that many people paying attention to that particular gender part of the story.

00:06:36.640 And then I would be going home, and I've got three sons.

00:06:39.020 And they're being raised in an affluent, educated household.

00:06:42.160 So they are not the boys and men who we should be most worried about from a policy point of view.

00:06:47.500 But nonetheless, they had a lot of questions.

00:06:50.440 They were spending a lot of time online.

00:06:53.740 And I think the whole debate about masculinity, the roles of men and women shifting so quickly,

00:07:00.340 was playing out over our dinner table as well.

00:07:02.940 And so in the end, those things came together.

00:07:04.980 And honestly, part of it was that I didn't think that many people were having a good faith

00:07:09.880 conversation about this.

00:07:12.000 I saw a lot of bad faith discussions of what was happening to boys and men,

00:07:16.020 but not many empirically-based, good faith discussions.

00:07:19.720 And so that was what I decided to do.

00:07:22.020 And so you're at Brookings.

00:07:23.300 You're focused on issues around middle class income inequality, wealth inequality.

00:07:27.860 You wrote a book in that space around upper middle class.

00:07:32.160 And so what year, roughly, was that research really started?

00:07:36.120 And you started to notice this trend or this lack of focus and intentionality on boys and men.

00:07:41.340 Yeah.

00:07:41.900 So I wrote a book called Dream Hoarders, which came out in 2017.

00:07:45.000 And it was really about the way that the upper middle class, the professional class,

00:07:49.260 top 10%, 20%, were really pulling away from everybody else and how that was causing all

00:07:54.580 kinds of issues.

00:07:55.640 And candidly, that we, because I had put myself solidly in that class, really weren't taking

00:08:02.540 responsibility for the ways in which we were actually rigging the opportunity system.

00:08:07.220 You think about the housing market, which I know you're very interested in, higher education,

00:08:12.280 which you're also very interested in.

00:08:13.600 And I saw those systems working pretty well for me and my neighbors in Bethesda, Maryland,

00:08:19.280 where I was living at the time.

00:08:20.640 But I also saw us holding other people out.

00:08:23.620 And so I think that was one of the root causes of the political moment that we're in, but

00:08:28.880 also just this cultural moment.

00:08:30.680 And then I looked at it harder.

00:08:32.360 And I looked and I saw, actually, you know what?

00:08:34.020 It's a lot of men who are just struggling to rise up the ladder.

00:08:37.760 They're doing worse than their fathers did.

00:08:39.860 I mean, the fact that men without a college degree only earn the same today as that group

00:08:44.280 of men did 50 years ago.

00:08:46.820 Like, wage stagnation for most men over a half century is a story.

00:08:53.320 And it's a huge part of that economic inequality.

00:08:56.400 And it's a huge part of why we don't see that upward mobility, because those men are struggling.

00:09:01.000 They then maybe don't form families.

00:09:03.540 Or if they do, they're not able to kind of provide for them in the way they'd hope to.

00:09:06.920 Women are, of course, then picking up more and more of the slack, which is, I know, something 1.00

00:09:10.540 you're also interested in.

00:09:11.520 I think your other half is even more interested in the whole idea of fair play and so on.

00:09:16.780 And so I think in the end, it's just bad for everybody if young men and boys are struggling

00:09:23.060 in our economy and struggling in our society.

00:09:25.340 And so that's really why in the end, I think, just needed a different kind of spotlight on

00:09:28.880 the question.

00:09:29.940 So the question always arises is this notion of a zero-sum game, that if we're talking about

00:09:34.600 boys and men, we're not talking about women and girls.

00:09:37.120 And we're talking about boys and men, we're talking about it.

00:09:39.460 It's sort of historic advantage that goes back, you know, hundreds and hundreds, thousands

00:09:44.540 and thousands of years to, you know, particularly white males.

00:09:49.540 Why the hell do we need to be focusing on them at a time when women still are struggling 1.00

00:09:55.080 to get equal pay, still don't not have the kind of gender equality in the home? 1.00

00:10:01.700 Back to the reference you were just making in terms of fair play in the household.

00:10:05.840 Women are still absorbing so much of that burden and so much of that work. 1.00

00:10:09.340 There's still so much more work that needs to be done for women and girls. 1.00

00:10:13.160 Why, Richard, spend so much time on boys and men?

00:10:18.580 Well, because we can do two things at once.

00:10:22.220 That's my bet.

00:10:23.560 My huge bet here is that people, including policymakers like yourself, are able to do both,

00:10:29.000 able to simultaneously say, there's a bunch more stuff we need to do for women and girls. 1.00

00:10:34.580 And you've just listed some of them.

00:10:36.180 I'll add one more.

00:10:37.080 I think it's particularly relevant to your state, which is only 2% of venture capital

00:10:41.960 money goes to female founders. 1.00

00:10:45.400 Now, I happen to be married to someone who has herself tried to raise money for the venture

00:10:51.080 capital market.

00:10:51.780 So I'm obliged by the terms of my marital contract to mention that in every interview that

00:10:56.020 I do.

00:10:56.380 And you're not allowed to cut that out.

00:10:57.640 And so the idea, and what, 25% of members of Congress are women, 10% of CEOs are women.

00:11:04.140 The idea that there isn't more still to do for women and girls is crazy.

00:11:09.260 But the idea that that means we can't also look at the fact that the suicide rate among

00:11:15.760 young men has risen by a third since 2010.

00:11:19.200 And that we lose 40,000 men a year to suicide, four times as many as we do for women.

00:11:23.760 I've mentioned wage stagnation, that we have these huge gender gaps in education now where 0.99

00:11:28.460 a lot of boys are really struggling at school.

00:11:30.500 And I think it's a bit like saying to a parent who has a son and a daughter, or at least one

00:11:35.140 of each, and basically saying to them, you're only allowed to choose one of them to care

00:11:39.420 about.

00:11:40.140 It's almost like we've done that to ourselves as a society.

00:11:42.300 And somehow anybody advocating for the issues of boys and men is immediately castigated as

00:11:49.480 someone who's anti-women.

00:11:50.520 And to be fair, lots of the people who are advocating for boys and men are anti-women,

00:11:55.020 right?

00:11:55.480 And so that becomes a really vicious cycle.

00:11:58.020 And just to speak personally for a moment, that was one of the reasons why I couldn't

00:12:01.580 get a publisher for my book to start with.

00:12:04.020 It's one of the reasons why at the time I was at Brookings, my colleagues were lining up

00:12:08.320 outside my door, warning me against this issue.

00:12:11.940 And the argument was, only reactionary, angry misogynists write books about boys and men.

00:12:20.480 Therefore, if you write a book about boys and men, you will be seen as an angry, reactionary

00:12:25.320 misogynist.

00:12:26.000 And I thought about that, decided that's the definition of a vicious cycle.

00:12:30.580 And you've then just ceded all that ground to those very folks.

00:12:35.820 You've created a vacuum.

00:12:37.600 And honestly, if people as boring as I am, Governor, can't talk about this issue, then

00:12:44.960 we're in real trouble.

00:12:45.700 Like one of the mottos of my new institute, the American Institute for Boys and Men, is

00:12:49.380 keep it boring.

00:12:51.640 And as my son, my middle son, likes to point out, he says, you're the man for that job,

00:12:56.840 Dad.

00:12:57.400 If that's your mission, they found their president.

00:13:00.060 But there's a serious point behind that, which is that we need data, we need research, and

00:13:05.620 we need to do it, as you said a moment ago, in a non-zero-sum way.

00:13:10.220 Because I think you've spoken about this, and I'd be interested to see how your thinking

00:13:15.120 has evolved on this, which is, the question is not, is there going to be a conversation

00:13:21.620 about what does it mean to be a man today?

00:13:24.260 The question is, who's going to have it?

00:13:26.580 Are you going to have it in the conversations you're having now?

00:13:31.160 Are other governors going to have it?

00:13:32.700 Are the mainstream media going to have it?

00:13:34.440 Are think tanks going to have it?

00:13:35.540 Or are we all just going to say, no, no, no, that's not for us.

00:13:38.780 We don't want people to think we're misogynists.

00:13:41.100 And so we leave the conversation to the reactionary online right.

00:13:45.380 And I'm afraid that if that's the case, we deserve to lose these young men.

00:13:48.480 Like we can't, you don't create a vacuum and then complain about the fact that someone's

00:13:52.200 pouring into it.

00:13:53.480 I love what you just said.

00:13:54.260 It's one of the reasons we started this podcast with Charlie Kirk, who's one of the many people

00:13:59.180 in this space that is filling that void.

00:14:01.760 And I want to talk a little bit more, not about necessarily that space specifically in

00:14:07.220 the manosphere, and talk about your reaction to this notion of the manosphere, just the

00:14:12.440 nomenclature of the manosphere more broadly.

00:14:14.920 But it is interesting to me, just backing up a little bit what you said.

00:14:18.200 I mean, the fact that you had difficulty finding publishers for the book, that there was so,

00:14:22.960 and this isn't that long.

00:14:24.060 I mean, you're talking about just a few years ago.

00:14:26.660 Right, 2021.

00:14:27.720 Yeah.

00:14:27.880 There was that kind of reticence around moving this conversation forward or broadening the

00:14:33.840 appeal beyond just sort of a reactionary right-wing framework.

00:14:37.220 And you're, by the way, hardly a left-wing.

00:14:39.400 This is not a political thing per se.

00:14:41.320 But it's interesting to me, even your friends and colleagues were warning you against entering

00:14:48.200 in this space.

00:14:49.240 It's just seen as, it was seen as very dangerous territory.

00:14:52.860 I think the permission space has really opened up around it in recent years, because I just

00:14:58.860 think in the end, these things are true.

00:15:01.540 These problems are true. 0.55

00:15:02.820 And if something's true, you can't ignore it forever.

00:15:06.820 And it's become one of my strongest beliefs that the way to turn a real problem into a

00:15:14.460 grievance is to simply ignore it.

00:15:17.420 I think ignored problems are what metastasize into grievances.

00:15:21.620 And so if I'm in a conversation with someone who is sore on the men's right side of the

00:15:26.420 argument or reactionary, I want them to sound crazy when they claim that the governors, the

00:15:32.380 presidents, the think tanks don't care about boys and men, right? 0.98

00:15:35.760 They will say, so a figure like Andrew Tate or others will say, they don't care about

00:15:40.240 boys and men.

00:15:41.840 And I want that claim to sound crazy.

00:15:44.820 But the trouble is, it doesn't sound crazy.

00:15:47.440 Right now, we haven't done enough.

00:15:49.720 There haven't been enough policies.

00:15:51.040 There haven't been enough public announcements about, we see the problems of boys and men from, 1.00

00:15:57.220 frankly, people like you, Governor, and from others.

00:15:59.160 Like, I think this is a fantastic move.

00:16:01.000 But I don't think it's unfair of the people on the conservative or even the reactionary

00:16:06.320 side of this argument to point to what has been something of a deafening silence from

00:16:11.280 the other side of the aisle on this issue for the reasons that we've already talked about,

00:16:14.440 that fear that somehow you'd be seen as anti-women.

00:16:17.220 But that has just created this, it's seeded the ground. 0.90

00:16:20.800 And so I don't, I, my goal is to make the crazies sound crazy.

00:16:24.420 But right now, they don't.

00:16:26.620 And it's interesting, just in taking, you know, a little bit of my own journey on this,

00:16:31.820 you know, and I appreciate your reference to my wife.

00:16:33.800 She's done a series of documentaries.

00:16:36.020 And one of the documentaries, her second documentary was around masculinity.

00:16:40.200 It was around the issues of boys and men in 2015.

00:16:45.040 Around the same time you were starting to write that book around income inequality.

00:16:49.020 She was highlighting the suicide rates and the dropout rates and issues around incarceration,

00:16:53.060 crime, self-harm and the like, self-isolation, loneliness.

00:16:57.800 It wasn't a focus as much on what was happening in terms of algorithms and online activity.

00:17:02.960 But it was interesting just that the reaction she got, she did it from the feminist perspective, 1.00

00:17:09.160 bringing in Jackson Katz and some of the others that focused on the issues of violence and women.

00:17:14.300 But the reaction to it was pretty remarkable, to your point.

00:17:18.540 And even I saw myself on that journey as I'm there promoting the film, promoting the sort of contours of that debate,

00:17:27.520 how uncomfortable it was, particularly for me to enter into that debate.

00:17:31.280 And I sort of stepped back.

00:17:32.480 And you're right.

00:17:33.040 I think there's been a huge void, particularly in the Democratic Party, on this issue.

00:17:37.880 And you're right.

00:17:39.480 These folks on the other side have walked into that debate and they've weaponized it, some more benign than others.

00:17:47.340 But obviously, the issues, how the politics has changed is, I think, an interesting part of this.

00:17:53.440 To be fair to you and to the Democratic Party, I don't think it was just the Democratic Party.

00:17:57.700 I think it was the liberal establishment kind of writ large.

00:18:00.220 It was the think tanks.

00:18:01.500 It was the media where this was just difficult.

00:18:03.680 And one of the things I've really come to believe about this is that you just described your own discomfort with talking about this issue.

00:18:10.760 And I suspect that you're still feeling some of that now.

00:18:15.020 And what I would say is good.

00:18:17.420 You don't want to lose that discomfort because I honestly think that it should be an uncomfortable conversation, given the history,

00:18:26.320 given the issues we still have to work on for women. 1.00

00:18:29.920 There should be a difficulty to this conversation.

00:18:32.780 There should be a discomfort to this conversation.

00:18:35.220 I honestly think if you don't find this conversation a little bit uncomfortable, you shouldn't be in it.

00:18:41.360 Right.

00:18:41.660 I think if you think it's all simple.

00:18:43.800 Yeah.

00:18:44.020 Men are struggling because the woke feminists have taken over and we just need to go back, say, 50, 100, 150 years. 1.00

00:18:50.380 Take your pick.

00:18:50.880 Anybody who thinks like that shouldn't be in the conversation.

00:18:53.120 But on the other hand, we shouldn't let the natural, in fact, honorable discomfort that we feel, and honestly, that obviously women are going to feel much more strongly.

00:19:04.840 That should be acknowledged.

00:19:06.980 That should be discussed.

00:19:08.160 But it shouldn't stop us.

00:19:11.020 It should make us pause.

00:19:12.860 It should be something that we get into the room that we say, of course, this is difficult.

00:19:17.020 And of course, there's more we need to do with women and girls. 1.00

00:19:19.260 And there's also this bunch of issues for boys and men.

00:19:23.460 And my experience of this, and I'd be interested to see whether you agree with this, is that if you frame it that way, actually, there's a huge appetite to have this conversation, including among the most feminist women out there.

00:19:35.680 Because they have sons, they have brothers, they have husbands, as long as there isn't this fear that this is going to be used as a way to go back on women's rights or to negate the ongoing work of women, as long as people trust you, that that's not what you're doing, then I have discovered the appetite for this conversation is huge.

00:19:58.180 The Stuff You Should Know guys have made their own summer playlist of their must-listen podcasts on movies.

00:20:03.700 It's me, Josh, and I'd like to welcome you to the Stuff You Should Know summer movie playlist.

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00:20:21.400 Listen to the Stuff You Should Know summer movie playlist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:20:28.560 Just like great shoes, great books take you places.

00:20:31.780 Through unforgettable love stories, and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.

00:20:37.400 I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of, like, butterflies.

00:20:41.960 I'm Danielle Robay, and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts.

00:20:48.920 Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers, and more,

00:20:54.360 to explore the stories that shape us, on the page and off.

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00:21:19.800 Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:21:28.020 The X-Ray Vision Podcast is your home for reactions, recaps, and roundtable debates on the biggest pop culture moments of the summer.

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00:22:38.360 What's up, guys? Welcome to Augusto, Papa, the go-to spot for everything Musica Mexicana.

00:22:46.320 We're proud Mexican-Americans who live and breathe this music.

00:22:49.300 We started this podcast to share and discuss our views on Musica Mexicana.

00:22:53.300 Whether you like Peso Pluma, Los Alegres del Barranco, Ariel Camacho, or Ivan Cornejo when you get in your feels,

00:22:59.180 then this podcast is for you.

00:23:00.700 We deep dive into music reviews.

00:23:02.640 Peso Pluma showed last year, everything was a 10 out of 10.

00:23:05.660 Fashion and lifestyle inspired by the roots of Musica Mexicana, the craziest controversies and chismes. 1.00

00:23:11.000 I don't have nothing against Fuerza, you know, and I don't think J.O.P. should be mad at me.

00:23:14.600 Song and artist comparisons, competition in the scene.

00:23:17.520 There is competition, there is sides to this.

00:23:20.680 There's Peso Pluma, Double P, and there's J.O.P. 0.95

00:23:23.740 Street Mob.

00:23:24.560 I think at the end of the day, it's business, it's all competition.

00:23:27.580 And of course, our personal stories and opinions along the way.

00:23:30.580 This isn't just a podcast, it's a movement for fans who live Musica Mexicana every single day.

00:23:35.040 Listen to Augusto Papa as part of the My Cultura podcast network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:23:43.300 Hey, I'm Radhi Devlukia, and I'm the host of A Really Good Cry podcast, and I have the opportunity to talk to Dr. Julie Smith.

00:23:49.820 Julie is a clinical psychologist, a best-selling author, and one of the most trusted voices in mental health online.

00:23:55.900 She was one of the first therapists to use TikTok as an educational platform.

00:23:59.760 And since then, she has built a global audience of nearly 10 million people by making emotional support accessible, honest, and deeply human.

00:24:08.020 You know, resentment isn't something that the world owes you.

00:24:10.980 It's something that you need to work on.

00:24:12.940 I would say with this stuff is look out for those feelings of resentment, because they're a sign that there was some sort of boundary that wasn't held before.

00:24:21.960 You know, that if you're not asserting your own desires or wishes or needs, and then resenting your partner or your friend for filling the space for you, then it comes back to, okay, well, what do you want that's not this?

00:24:37.660 Listen to A Really Good Cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:24:45.840 But laying that foundation becomes critical, and that's a central part, I think, of creating that, as you said, that permission, that space where we can have this dialogue in a constructive way.

00:24:55.900 That said, as well, I mean, there's been that reaction, you know, we've got, you know, people like Josh Howley writes a book on manhood and seem to go, again, in a direction that a lot of folks online have gone.

00:25:08.300 You expressed one of the, or at least highlighted one of the more extreme voices, Andrew Tate, in this space.

00:25:13.640 I think you've written about and talked about even your own kids' relationship to Andrew as it relates to their algorithms online.

00:25:22.260 Even Jordan Peterson, who, you know, has had his own evolution or devolution, depending on how some people view his perspectives on a myriad of issues.

00:25:32.040 But this issue, you're right, has really come to the fore.

00:25:35.040 I think about it, you know, with my wife, we have two boys, two girls, and my wife is now the bigger crusader on this, saying, what the hell has happened to our boys?

00:25:45.460 What is going on online?

00:25:47.560 What is happening?

00:25:48.620 Why is he bringing up Andrew Tate?

00:25:50.460 Why is he talking about it?

00:25:51.700 He talked, I'm smiling, because when you were writing about this, Jordan Peterson, he's telling me about Jordan Peterson before I knew much about Jordan Peterson.

00:25:59.200 My kids were telling me about Andrew Tate, my youngest son, who's now 23, said, when I was finishing my book, he said, Dad, you have to write about Andrew Tate.

00:26:08.420 And I said, who the hell is Andrew Tate?

00:26:11.060 I looked briefly at him, decided that he wasn't a big enough figure to worry about, didn't mention him.

00:26:15.620 But of course, you know, of course I was wrong.

00:26:19.360 And it's very interesting how the, let's just assume for the sake of this argument that you and I are both middle-aged, right?

00:26:27.780 That might be flattering both of us, but let's go with it.

00:26:30.460 It is.

00:26:30.700 All right, let's take it.

00:26:32.740 But we just honestly don't understand it.

00:26:35.700 I think you got into a little bit of trouble for lumping together Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, and Andrew Tate at one point.

00:26:43.000 And I don't think you do that now.

00:26:44.920 I think that was a moment where this sort of gauzy, blobby thing over there was just hard to decode.

00:26:53.160 But as you get closer to it, you understand that within it, big differences.

00:26:57.340 I even, I've actually come to think that the term manosphere is not helpful because it's just, it just lumps together people who are doing very, very different things in different ways.

00:27:09.600 And the young men who are the disproportionate consumers of a lot of that content, they understand the differences.

00:27:15.360 And so if we don't sound like we understand the differences, then we just sound like, you know, old men shaking our fist at the world.

00:27:25.300 And so I don't know how to do this yet, but it's almost like a brosphere, which is more like Rogan, certainly Chris Williamson, who I like quite a lot, and maybe even Theo Vaughn, I've been on his podcast.

00:27:38.560 And then there's the kind of misogynosphere, or I don't know what to call, do you know what I mean?

00:27:42.500 And they're very different, and it's quite important to keep that difference in our minds, because otherwise people think they're all the same, and they're really not.

00:27:53.020 What they are all doing is trying to come up with answers to the questions that many young men are asking, and they're doing so with various degrees of openness and fidelity, and you can't throw them all together.

00:28:06.120 And to do so is to, again, make a similar version of that mistake we were talking about earlier, which is to cede all that ground, right?

00:28:12.240 Just don't go there.

00:28:14.100 I love what you just said is extraordinarily important, and what you also referenced I think is important.

00:28:20.200 What are these young boys looking for?

00:28:23.740 I mean, you know, we see how they fall prey to the algorithms, and, you know, you've written obviously a lot about, you know, what, you know, these kids and their body images and issues related, you know,

00:28:34.700 six-pack abs, or, you know, maybe they're on gaming, and all of a sudden then, you know, they're on an Andrew Tate.

00:28:42.700 You know, they're asking their parents for $35 to become part of his Andrew Tate Masculinity University, or some hybrid version of that for someone else.

00:28:51.760 But what are young boys looking for?

00:28:53.980 They are looking for an answer to the question, how should I be a man today?

00:28:57.900 And the bit of that that's hard is today.

00:29:02.380 It's just much harder.

00:29:04.160 And that question is being asked with an urgency, which is new.

00:29:11.320 It's not that it hasn't always had to be asked to some extent, right?

00:29:14.340 I think every generation has got to think about that.

00:29:17.160 But there's a new urgency to it now, partly for the really good reason of the huge rise in the economic independence of women.

00:29:24.100 So I'm one of the people who celebrates the fact that 40% of women now earn more than the typical man, the median man. 0.67

00:29:33.720 Now, that's not equality.

00:29:35.440 That would mean 50%, right?

00:29:36.940 But in 1979, that figure was 13%, right?

00:29:41.760 And that's well within my lifetime.

00:29:43.060 And so in the space of a very short period of economic history, we have transformed the economic relationships between men and women in a way that is wonderful.

00:29:52.600 Arguably, the greatest economic liberation in human history as it rolls around the world, still far from complete.

00:29:59.220 But like, is that like the fact that my wife has had opportunities that my mom could only dream of?

00:30:05.780 That's just the most wonderful thing.

00:30:09.020 And it has put a question mark next to the role of men.

00:30:13.820 Because the traditional role of breadwinner has to a very large extent now disappeared.

00:30:21.600 For the very good reason I've just identified.

00:30:23.460 But we shouldn't be naive about the fact that it doesn't actually then put a big question mark.

00:30:27.060 And we shouldn't be naive about the fact that will leave some men at least hungering for the world where you knew what it meant to be a man.

00:30:33.360 So they're asking the question.

00:30:34.640 And going online and finding all kinds of different answers.

00:30:39.660 Now, I will say one more thing, which is maybe a bit more of a critique of the cultural blobby left.

00:30:46.780 I don't know what to do.

00:30:48.500 I'm sure you get what I mean.

00:30:50.480 The blob, the liberal blob.

00:30:51.780 Which is, they have done a much better job of outlining what not to do as a man, what not to be as a man, than what to do.

00:31:05.460 A lot of young men feel like they've come out into the world with a long list of don'ts.

00:31:10.800 Don't say this.

00:31:12.000 Don't do that.

00:31:12.380 Don't say this.

00:31:12.760 I mean, just in terms of the political correctness, the way.

00:31:15.860 Yeah.

00:31:15.880 And just, you know, the consent story and so on, too.

00:31:18.880 And to be clear, in case it needs to be said again, all good.

00:31:24.280 But I had this experience with one of my kids came home from, I guess it was middle or early high.

00:31:28.180 And they'd done the social skills class or the relationship class or whatever Orwellian term is being used to describe the kind of social emotional skills, how to get by in the world class thing, right?

00:31:42.440 And, sorry, that was very unfair to say it was Orwellian.

00:31:45.680 But you know what I mean?

00:31:47.280 It's always just this weird thing.

00:31:48.960 The social skills and emotional vocabulary literacy class or something.

00:31:53.380 And I said, well, what did you learn?

00:31:55.180 And he said, we did masculinity stuff today.

00:31:57.160 And I said, that's interesting.

00:31:58.660 What did you learn?

00:31:59.320 And he said, here's a list of 33 things that I know I'm not supposed to do or say.

00:32:03.520 Yeah, yeah.

00:32:04.240 And we went through the list together.

00:32:06.100 I agreed with every single one of them.

00:32:09.120 And we had a good conversation about them.

00:32:10.700 And I said, and?

00:32:12.440 And he said, no, that was it.

00:32:14.400 So for reasons that I understand but I am increasingly impatient with, there's been a reluctance to set out a kind of positive vision of modern masculinity.

00:32:26.280 One that's compatible with gender equality but is still appealing to young men for fear that that will somehow send us down this slippery slope back to the 1950s again.

00:32:35.900 But what that means is that we've done a really good job of setting out the curriculum of what not to be without anything positive to take the place of the old script.

00:32:46.780 So we've torn up the old script of masculinity, which was based around protector, provider, breadwinner.

00:32:52.660 We've torn that up.

00:32:53.360 And we've torn up the old one around femininity, which was, you know, you're going to be a mom, housewife mom. 1.00

00:32:59.480 We've torn them both up.

00:33:00.460 We replaced the female one with an incredibly powerful and rather beautiful one about empowerment and liberation. 0.88

00:33:06.680 You go, girl.

00:33:07.420 The future's female. 1.00

00:33:08.280 Girls on the run.

00:33:09.080 Black girl magic. 0.98

00:33:10.160 I love all of it.

00:33:11.180 So it's very kind of culture of empowerment and possibility that we've replaced now for girls and women.

00:33:20.680 We also tore up the old male script and we didn't replace it.

00:33:24.580 And so we just tore up the old one and said, yeah, well, you're not going to be like your dad.

00:33:29.240 The economy is very different now.

00:33:31.000 And so then the question, OK, well, what should I be like then?

00:33:34.920 We haven't had a good answer to that, but along come some of the online folks and they have a very clear answer.

00:33:41.700 And if we don't like it, we need a better one.

00:33:45.120 The idea that we don't need one is the ultimate naivety.

00:33:48.820 And I think that's what's happened.

00:33:50.080 There's become this sense that equality will require androgyny.

00:33:56.200 And honestly, I think I used to think that, too.

00:33:57.920 I think in my, I used to think, ah, let's get past all this masculine, feminine, male, female stuff.

00:34:03.140 Let's all, you know, we're all human.

00:34:04.900 And I still love that idea, but I've really come to believe partly as a result of my own experience as a parent more generally, that that is naive, that we do actually still need a way to talk about men and women overlapping and distinct, but still beautiful.

00:34:18.520 So, and so I want to unpack that.

00:34:22.380 And this notion of filling that void and painting a positive alternative is foundational and critical.

00:34:29.540 And I want to get to some of your specific ideas in that space.

00:34:32.880 But take me back a little bit.

00:34:34.200 You've written a lot about this sort of, and I come from California, go West, young man, go West.

00:34:39.400 This notion of the great frontier, the freedom, this guy or gal, or at least guy in this case, on the white horse comes saving the day.

00:34:47.540 Sort of the, you know, John Wayne of vacation, Reagan, you know, Costa, the whole thing.

00:34:53.200 This notion of the lone ranger, as you write about it, being free, but you suggest increasingly lonely.

00:35:00.940 I mean, sort of bring us back a little bit.

00:35:04.020 Yeah.

00:35:04.300 And to be clear that I, just that description, I mean, I'm a, I'm a proud US citizen, have been since 2016.

00:35:09.780 And that pioneering spirit, that sense of optimism and growth and possibility is, I used to work here before this too.

00:35:16.820 I used to love, love, love that about this country.

00:35:20.500 But do you think there's a sense that at its worst, there's this movement online, the men going their own way movement, which is literally just men decoupling from society and becoming, they're sort of male separatists, essentially.

00:35:31.840 Just saying we need to separate ourselves away from society.

00:35:34.260 But even a bit less extreme than that, there's this sense of like, men are supposed to be independent.

00:35:40.280 And if men are going to get married, it's because, you know, a woman will sort of trap him into it. 0.99

00:35:45.000 You talk about the ball and chain.

00:35:46.480 There's all this tropes around that.

00:35:47.800 Well, actually, it turns out, in the most recent surveys, men think being married is more important than women do.

00:35:52.780 And that's because men know something.

00:35:55.760 And the truth is that masculinity, properly defined, has always been relational.

00:36:02.020 It's always been about service and surplus.

00:36:05.620 I came across this definition in the literature for anthropology, saying that actually, in a lot of societies, the marker of going from boy to man was when you were producing more of something than you needed for yourself.

00:36:18.480 You're producing a surplus, right?

00:36:20.260 It could be meat.

00:36:20.980 It could be money.

00:36:21.700 It could be something.

00:36:23.040 And that's because just in the natural environment, like, it takes a long time to raise kids.

00:36:28.340 And that's very demanding on the moms. 1.00

00:36:30.020 And so it was masculinity was literally defined by service, was literally defined by giving more than you get, producing more than you need.

00:36:39.520 Now, what that thing is going to be will change.

00:36:41.800 That's very important to say, because, again, this can sound like we're calling for the old system.

00:36:47.280 But I still love the idea that actually the way that you can tell if someone's a man is how he is with other people, how he is with his own kids, other people's kids.

00:36:58.220 If he's a teacher, my middle son is now a teacher in Baltimore City.

00:37:03.000 And, like, watching him, big guy at the front of a classroom, and he coaches soccer, he coaches a girls' soccer team.

00:37:09.860 Just there's something about that which is beautiful.

00:37:12.180 And I'm not suggesting, of course, that women don't also do that, to be clear.

00:37:16.040 But there is something about this idea of what I would refer to as relational masculinity as opposed to lone ranger masculinity.

00:37:24.540 I think a man going his own way and only looking out for himself is actually not a man.

00:37:31.320 That's the least masculine thing you can do, is only look out for yourself.

00:37:36.760 And that's been true throughout human history.

00:37:40.980 It's about the tribe.

00:37:43.260 It's about the family.

00:37:44.780 It's about your people.

00:37:46.000 And so I've really been disturbed by this strand of separatism and stark autonomy that you see online, which is like a real man is a man who answers only to himself. 0.98

00:38:00.540 And sorry, but that's just bullshit. 0.65

00:38:02.580 And every human society has shown that to be the case. 0.98

00:38:06.520 A man is someone who gives. 1.00

00:38:08.860 And my father was like that.

00:38:10.360 I mean, I saw that being played out in my own childhood, which was like he was the guy that defined himself by his very embeddedness in his community, not his separateness from it.

00:38:20.880 And I really worry about the isolation that's gripping many of our men now.

00:38:25.080 And I think it's because of this false idea about what it means to be a man.

00:38:28.140 The Stuff You Should Know guys have made their own summer playlist of their must-listen podcasts on movies.

00:38:37.040 It's me, Josh, and I'd like to welcome you to the Stuff You Should Know summer movie playlist.

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00:38:54.340 Listen to the Stuff You Should Know summer movie playlist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:39:01.980 Just like great shoes, great books take you places.

00:39:05.380 Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.

00:39:10.540 I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of, like, butterflies.

00:39:15.120 I'm Danielle Robay, and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts.

00:39:21.920 Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers, and more, to explore the stories that shape us, on the page and off.

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00:39:53.020 Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:39:59.100 The X-Ray Vision Podcast is your home for reactions, recaps, and roundtable debates on the biggest pop culture moments of the summer.

00:40:09.340 We drop four episodes a week, and every Friday, we're popping out the popcorn and breaking down that weekend's big box office straws, including Superman and Sinners.

00:40:18.880 Rosie Sinners, what an incredible cinema experience.

00:40:23.240 I went in, and I was expecting Coogler, I was expecting horror.

00:40:27.380 What I didn't expect, there was just this unbelievable, sprawling cinematography.

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00:40:41.760 including interviews with none other than Superman and Lois Lane themselves, David Corrensweat, and Rachel Brosnahan.

00:40:48.400 We haven't seen the film yet.

00:40:49.640 We haven't seen it.

00:40:50.020 We're waiting to see it at the premiere, because we want that full experience with the crowd at the premiere in L.A.

00:40:56.520 Me and Nick and David are going to hold hands and squeeze each other's little fingies when exciting things happen on screen.

00:41:03.280 Listen to X-Ray Vision on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.

00:41:06.900 Follow X-Ray Vision and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

00:41:14.160 What's up, guys?

00:41:15.000 Welcome to Agusto, Papa, the go-to spot for everything Musica Mexicana.

00:41:19.100 We're proud Mexican-Americans who live and breathe this music.

00:41:22.480 We started this podcast to share and discuss our views on Musica Mexicana.

00:41:26.460 Whether you like Peso Pluma, Los Alegres del Barranco, Ariel Camacho, or Ivan Cornejo when you get in your feels, then this podcast is for you.

00:41:33.880 We deep dive into music reviews.

00:41:35.720 Peso Pluma show last year, everything was a 10 out of 10.

00:41:38.980 Fashion and lifestyle inspired by the roots of Musica Mexicana, the craziest controversies and chismes. 1.00

00:41:44.020 I don't have nothing against Fuerza, you know, and I don't think J.O.P. should be mad at me.

00:41:47.740 Song and artist comparisons, competition in the scene.

00:41:50.680 There is competition, there is sides to this.

00:41:53.840 There's Peso Pluma, Double P, and there's J.O.P. 0.95

00:41:56.900 Street Mob.

00:41:57.720 I think at the end of the day, it's business, it's all competition.

00:42:00.740 And of course, our personal stories and opinions along the way.

00:42:03.600 This isn't just a podcast, it's a movement for fans who live Musica Mexicana every single day.

00:42:08.520 Listen to Augusto Papa as part of the My Cultura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:42:16.460 Hey, I'm Radhi Devlukia, and I'm the host of A Really Good Cry podcast, and I have the opportunity to talk to Dr. Julie Smith.

00:42:22.980 Julie is a clinical psychologist, a best-selling author, and one of the most trusted voices in mental health online.

00:42:28.700 She was one of the first therapists to use TikTok as an educational platform, and since then, she has built a global audience of nearly 10 million people by making emotional support accessible, honest, and deeply human.

00:42:41.100 You know, resentment isn't something that the world owes you, it's something that you need to work on.

00:42:46.560 I would say with this stuff is look out for those feelings of resentment, because they're a sign that there was some sort of boundary that wasn't held before.

00:42:54.840 You know, that if you're not asserting your own desires or wishes or needs, and then resenting your partner or your friend for filling the space for you, then it comes back to, okay, well, what do you want that's not this?

00:43:11.080 Listen to A Really Good Cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:43:16.180 In this notion of community versus, you know, this disconnect that people are now, you know, deeply lonely, that I imagine is at the core of why 80% of suicides are men.

00:43:31.460 Is that it?

00:43:32.100 I mean, is that the trend line or is it something deeper?

00:43:34.420 Is it just self-worth, feeling worthless?

00:43:36.560 Is it the fact that, you know, I've no longer had value because, you know, my physical strength, my physical capacity is no longer the advantage in a sort of cognitive world in terms of the economic shifts and realities?

00:43:50.940 Is it, or what is it?

00:43:52.120 I mean, what are these, these suicide rates are jaw-dropping.

00:43:55.760 Amazing.

00:43:56.000 And I will say that the thing that I didn't know until we dug into it more recently was that it's really swung to young men.

00:44:03.180 So up until 2010, it was really middle-aged men where we saw this rise in suicide, which I think was consistent with the story of deaths of despair, what was happening in the economy and so on.

00:44:13.460 But since 2010, the rise has basically all been among young men under 30.

00:44:16.960 And we honestly don't really know why, but it's a huge rise.

00:44:21.520 And I'm sure it's connected to some of these conversations that you've been having around what I call neededness, for want of a better term.

00:44:31.080 Neededness.

00:44:31.880 Yeah, I just think there's, like, I've come to believe that a human universal is the need to be needed.

00:44:40.520 And that feeling unneeded is, in this case, almost literally fatal.

00:44:45.720 A very good study by Fiona Shand and her colleagues looked at the words that men used to describe themselves before taking their own lives through suicide. 0.86

00:44:53.640 And the two most commonly used to describe themselves were worthless and useless.

00:45:01.540 We also know that the suicide rate among men goes up very significantly after a breakdown, a marital breakdown or a separation. 0.87

00:45:09.820 Does not go up for women. 1.00

00:45:11.920 Goes up a lot for men.

00:45:13.240 So that gap gets even bigger.

00:45:14.480 So we know it's much higher for men who are not employed.

00:45:17.580 We know it's much higher for men who, as you just indicated a minute ago, disconnected, isolated.

00:45:22.380 And so what's happening, I think, is that too many men aren't sure that they're needed.

00:45:28.200 They're not sure that the economy needs them.

00:45:30.360 They're not sure that their family needs them.

00:45:32.220 They're not sure their community needs them.

00:45:34.340 And so we've got to find a way to supply that sense to many men of that we still need you.

00:45:41.180 Like, we need you.

00:45:42.300 And I've actually been struck, this is something I, again, I learned recently, is that there's a huge lack of men volunteering in many civic institutions.

00:45:50.320 So I just signed up to be a big brother.

00:45:52.100 I'm a big fan of big brothers, big sisters.

00:45:53.780 And now that I've empty nested, maybe I'm also trying to fill a hole in myself too.

00:45:58.400 But I was shocked to discover that the waiting list for boys, where I live in East Tennessee, for a big is 12 months.

00:46:05.400 For girls, it's three months. 0.96

00:46:07.520 Because they have at least as many boys being referred as girls, and they have so few male volunteers.

00:46:13.060 And I look around, and people should look in their own area, and they will almost certainly discover that there is a massive shortage of male bigs.

00:46:20.960 And so big brothers, big sisters is becoming big sisters by default because of a lack of male volunteers.

00:46:27.980 And at the same time, we have a lot of men who maybe lack some structure and purpose in their lives.

00:46:33.100 And so there's got to be a way to make that call, but it has to be to men.

00:46:36.900 That's the thing that sounds a bit socially conservative about this, which is that I think you've got to make a specific call, which is like, guys, we need you.

00:46:45.320 We don't just need volunteers.

00:46:46.440 We need some guys for this.

00:46:48.320 If guys are told like we need guys, they're much more likely to turn up.

00:46:51.940 And we could argue forever about why that is, but it just seems to be true.

00:46:54.600 And so there's something quite deep in our culture here.

00:46:58.920 As men, we, like as fathers, that's obvious maybe in the workplace.

00:47:03.800 But if we start to doubt whether the tribe needs us, I think we fade away.

00:47:09.280 Is this, do you assign these trend lines to deinstitutionalization, the conversations we're having today around reshoring and manufacturing?

00:47:21.100 Are you seeing these trend lines globally along those same lines?

00:47:25.640 Is it now because we're online more and it's algorithms that it's getting exacerbated?

00:47:30.780 What, I mean, what are the, what are the sort of, or is it just the ascendancy of, of the feminist movement and, and sort of that friction, that dialectic that's, you know, that we're not expressing or at least discussing as much?

00:47:44.200 What, what, what do you attach this to?

00:47:46.540 Yeah.

00:47:46.880 I mean, am I allowed to say yes to all of the above, right?

00:47:51.140 Yeah.

00:47:51.520 A little bit of everything, huh?

00:47:52.720 A little bit.

00:47:53.440 But I, I do think that the way I think about this is that it's like the, if you think of the culture as like a kaleidoscope, I think it's been shaken very significantly and the pieces have not settled again yet.

00:48:05.720 And some of those, some of the forces that have shaken our culture have been really good, like the economic rise of women, right, which we mentioned earlier.

00:48:13.860 Now, the economic rise of women is a profound fact about modern societies. 0.88

00:48:18.200 It is a wonderful thing and it has also massively destabilized the way we think about male and female role.

00:48:26.020 And we've got to acknowledge that if we want to keep making progress.

00:48:29.780 I think like a big thing here is you can have a huge step forward, which still has some turbulence around it, right?

00:48:36.020 So finding a way to take men with us on this journey, that's huge.

00:48:39.380 But as you just referred to, it's also, also true that while that was happening, that de-industrialization, some of the issues around trade just disproportionately hit working class men.

00:48:49.760 So that's happened at the same time.

00:48:52.440 And then right towards the end of this period, we're seeing the rise of online culture.

00:48:56.720 Now, we focus a lot on the negatives of online culture.

00:49:00.740 I sometimes wonder about the potential positives because in almost all of human history, having more men who don't have that much to do, have time on their hands, has predicted much higher crime rates and much higher social unrest.

00:49:20.640 That seems to, it's almost like a fixed law of societies, right?

00:49:24.440 That hasn't happened this time.

00:49:25.740 And I think it's plausible to suggest that that might be because the men have something else to do with gaming, with pornography, with whatever the online content is, etc.

00:49:39.300 And so, now, I'm not arguing a favor of those things when I say this, but it is nonetheless striking that these trends in young male, particularly young male disengagement, which would almost automatically produce higher crime rates in every other era of people, because they'd be kicking around on the streets, they'd be trying to figure out what to do, they'd be getting into fights, they'd be like, that's not happened.

00:50:02.240 And so, in some ways, what's happened instead is a male retreat.

00:50:05.440 And so, I've ended up being more worried about the men who are checking out than the men who are acting out.

00:50:14.360 Now, of course, the men who act out get all the headlines, and I don't in any way want to diminish the problems around men acting out, but I see a much deeper problem here, which is just this withdrawal, this retreat, this passivity that many men feel because they can retreat to this online world, which wasn't there.

00:50:33.420 It wasn't there when I was growing up or when you were growing up in the same way, but it is there now.

00:50:38.320 And so, what it gives men is an alternative world to escape to.

00:50:42.540 And the question is, why are so many of them wanting to escape?

00:50:46.420 And that, I mean, it's a rhetorical question for you.

00:50:48.800 I mean, why is that then?

00:50:50.500 I mean, is it, what, I mean, it's, well, let's, I mean, this is an opportunity, obviously, to segue into what we need to do.

00:50:57.940 But, I mean, but why, I mean, again, is there any, is it, is it just these larger trend lines?

00:51:03.060 I mean, what, is there, is there sort of a moment that marks, I mean, or is it just this longer shift?

00:51:09.480 It's decades in the making.

00:51:11.600 I mean, or can you literally mark, is there a cultural moment that really sort of, where you saw this trend accelerate, this trend line became this headline?

00:51:21.240 The way I think about this is that you see these cultural trends happening relatively slowly in terms of a human lifespan, right?

00:51:28.560 They happen over decades.

00:51:29.480 But they're like, you know, the tectonic plates shifting around.

00:51:33.360 And then you'll get, once they hit a certain point, then you'll get the earthquake or the volcano.

00:51:38.580 But beneath the surface, and this is very much your state, so you understand this better than most governors,

00:51:44.320 it's like stuff, the ground is moving beneath the surface, and then that will create this kind of eruption.

00:51:49.560 I think the ground has been shifting for at least half a century.

00:51:53.580 It's been shifting economically, with a shift away from blue-collar, male-favored jobs.

00:51:59.200 It's been shifting in terms of the relative position of men and women, with women going from being essentially economically dependent on men

00:52:06.660 to being economically independent to a very large degree.

00:52:11.040 And in the education system, we've seen this massive reversal of the gender gap,

00:52:15.740 so that boys and men are now way behind women and girls.

00:52:19.560 When they leave school or when they leave college.

00:52:21.320 I mean, at college now, there's a bigger gender gap on college campuses today than there was in 1972 when we passed Title IX, 1.00

00:52:28.380 but it's the other way around.

00:52:29.680 So about 60-40 now, female-male.

00:52:32.420 And so these things didn't happen overnight.

00:52:36.020 They've been building and developing.

00:52:37.760 And then I think this online culture has intersected with this in one way, just talked about to kind of give men a place to retreat to,

00:52:44.520 which I think is bad in the long run, but also to start weaponizing, to use the term used earlier,

00:52:50.120 some of these grievances, some of these issues.

00:52:51.840 And so I think it takes quite a long time to neglect issues that have been built, but I think they've been coming for quite a while now.

00:52:59.320 It's just that they've broken through the surface now into our culture and into our politics in a way that's made them very hard to ignore.

00:53:06.780 But I honestly think they've been building for many decades now.

00:53:09.400 So speaking of politics, I mean, obviously the Trump campaign did not ignore this space.

00:53:15.460 And I don't think they ignored it for, you know, four, eight years prior either.

00:53:19.940 But they seem to have really been the beneficiary of more focus on young men on some of these trend lines.

00:53:28.100 Obviously, the amount of time and energy the campaign spent targeting young men, targeting men broadly, that paid huge dividends.

00:53:36.680 I think there was a 15 point shift from 41 percent, 56 percent men under 30 that moved towards Trump campaign.

00:53:47.300 What do you make of of his approach to these issues?

00:53:52.420 Do you think they're cynical?

00:53:54.260 Do you think he's approached it at least with a sensitivity, a recognition?

00:53:59.120 And where do you think my party as Democrats sort of seemed completely devoid of focus and energy?

00:54:05.860 I was certainly not a focus at the DNC.

00:54:07.920 I know we have a close acquaintance.

00:54:10.860 At least I had a privilege of having him on the podcast.

00:54:12.980 Scott Galloway, close friend of yours.

00:54:15.440 Scott talked about the DNC and he talked about going on there, DNC, what we care about.

00:54:21.280 And it was every single thing that's out there in the imaginable, except 26 percent of the population that the DNC didn't seem to care about.

00:54:30.360 And at least at all, at least based on their own their own website and their own priorities and policy.

00:54:37.720 What what do you think of Trump's efforts in this space?

00:54:40.540 Yeah. So the way I think about this is that in politics, something almost always beats nothing.

00:54:46.060 And what there was from the Democrats on issues around boys and men was was nothing.

00:54:53.120 There was this. It was the sound of deafening silence on these issues.

00:54:58.520 And that's been true for a while.

00:55:00.380 And I think for the reasons that were identified earlier, which is the Democrats were very determined to be seen, particularly by women, as the party that were supporting them.

00:55:08.600 And they felt that any moves to acknowledge the issues, the challenges of boys and men would somehow undermine their claim to be the party for women.

00:55:19.360 I think that was a fatal miscalculation.

00:55:22.040 I also think, honestly, it was somewhat insulting to women because there are plenty of women out there and we may know some in our own lives, governor, who are simultaneously worried about the issues facing women access, for example, to reproductive health care, justice at work.

00:55:38.980 And they're desperately worried about their son's mental health and they're very worried about their brother's job.

00:55:44.260 And so a party that managed to do both, I think, would have been pretty unstoppable.

00:55:49.280 But there was nothing on the Democrat side.

00:55:51.560 On the Republican side, there was really, I would just put it as meeting men where they were, especially young men.

00:55:59.340 And if you look at recent work from David Shaw, the Democrat pollster, it's very striking that it wasn't just like men under 30.

00:56:05.140 It was men under 20. It was men under 23. 0.59

00:56:07.680 The younger the men were, the more they swung.

00:56:10.500 And I think that is partly because that's the micro generation who grew up with terms like toxic masculinity and mansplaining and the women's movement.

00:56:19.700 Toxic masculinity was only invented really in 2016 for public use.

00:56:24.460 But if you were 20, you were 10 when that happened, if you were voting for the first time in 2024.

00:56:29.660 You were in high school when that happened, if you were 24 when you were voting.

00:56:34.080 So I think what's happened was that there was this sense of young men coming up for grabs.

00:56:37.860 They didn't hear anything from Democrats.

00:56:40.400 And in the end, I think the Republicans did a better job of signaling to young men, we like you.

00:56:46.420 We like the stuff you like.

00:56:49.700 And we are going to go to the places you go, like the podcast.

00:56:53.540 And so I think they met young men where they were, both culturally and in terms of communication strategy.

00:57:00.140 They didn't have anything to offer them by way of policy.

00:57:04.220 This wasn't a policy referendum.

00:57:06.980 And in fact, my work suggests that the views on policy among young men haven't really changed.

00:57:12.720 This wasn't a policy win.

00:57:14.380 It was a cultural win.

00:57:15.940 The Republicans managed to convince young men that we see you and we like you.

00:57:22.400 And I don't think there was anything more to it than that.

00:57:24.400 But I don't think the Democrats did a very good job of making young men feel the same way.

00:57:29.080 If anything, Democrats struggle with the idea that men might have problems because too many of them are still convinced that men are the problem.

00:57:39.560 And until Democrats get past that, until they can acknowledge that there are real problems facing boys and men and issues facing women and girls, they just couldn't get past the zero sum.

00:57:51.640 It's very frustrating, especially when Tim Walsh came on the ticket.

00:57:55.040 I had this fantasy speech in my head where Tim Walsh would go out and talk about the need for a first public school teacher to run for such high office, coach.

00:58:03.340 I had a speech he was going to give, and it was going to be all about the things we're going to do for women as the Democrats.

00:58:08.320 He said, but you know what?

00:58:10.420 I'm very worried about the 10% decline in the share of male teachers.

00:58:13.780 I'm very worried about the decline in male sports.

00:58:16.480 I'm very worried about the lack of male coaches.

00:58:18.520 I'm very worried about the rising suicide rate among young men.

00:58:22.020 And I, as a Democrat, I'm going to set out this agenda to help young men and to help men as well as our agenda to help young women.

00:58:30.480 And I've got to tell you, I don't think very many people would have hated that.

00:58:33.620 But there wasn't even a hint of that from the Democrats.

00:58:38.320 We'll see you next time.

00:59:08.320 Just like great shoes, great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.

00:59:18.420 I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.

00:59:22.600 I'm Danielle Robay, and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts.

00:59:29.960 Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers, and more to explore the stories that shape us, on the page and off.

00:59:39.020 I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick, deep diving book talkers, and obsessing over book-to-screen cast for years.

00:59:46.540 And now, I get to talk to the people making the magic.

00:59:49.840 So if you've ever fallen in love with a fictional character, or cried at the last chapter, or passed a book to a friend saying,

00:59:56.720 you have to read this, this podcast is for you.

01:00:00.200 Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:00:07.200 The X-Ray Vision Podcast is your home for reactions, recaps, and roundtable debates on the biggest pop culture moments of the summer.

01:00:17.220 We drop four episodes a week, and every Friday, we're popping out the popcorn and breaking down that weekend's big box office straws, including Superman and Sinners.

01:00:26.760 Rosie Sinners, what an incredible cinema experience.

01:00:31.460 I went in, and I was expecting Kugler, I was expecting horror.

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01:00:49.640 including interviews with none other than Superman and Lois Lane themselves, David Corrensweat, and Rachel Brosnahan.

01:00:56.280 We haven't seen the film yet.

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01:01:04.280 Me and Nick and David are going to hold hands and squeeze each other's little fingies when exciting things happen on screen.

01:01:11.160 Listen to X-Ray Vision on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.

01:01:14.760 Follow X-Ray Vision and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

01:01:19.400 What's up, guys? Welcome to Agusto, Papa, the go-to spot for everything Musica Mexicana.

01:01:27.180 We're proud Mexican-Americans who live and breathe this music.

01:01:30.340 We started this podcast to share and discuss our views on Musica Mexicana.

01:01:34.320 Whether you like Peso Pluma, Los Alegres del Barranco, Ariel Camacho, or Ivan Cornejo when you get in your feels,

01:01:40.200 then this podcast is for you.

01:01:41.720 We deep dive into music reviews.

01:01:43.680 Peso Pluma show last year, everything was a 10 out of 10.

01:01:46.700 Fashion and lifestyle inspired by the roots of Musica Mexicana, the craziest controversies and chismes. 1.00

01:01:52.040 I don't have nothing against fuerza, you know, and I don't think J.O.P. should be mad at me.

01:01:55.620 Song and artist comparisons, competition in the scene.

01:01:58.560 There is competition, there is sides to this.

01:02:01.720 There's Peso Pluma, Double P, and there's J.O.P. 0.95

01:02:04.780 Street Mob.

01:02:05.600 I think at the end of the day, it's business, it's all competition.

01:02:08.600 And of course, our personal stories and opinions along the way.

01:02:11.600 This isn't just a podcast, it's a movement for fans who live Musica Mexicana every single day.

01:02:16.060 Listen to Augusto Papa as part of the My Cultura podcast network on the iHeartRadio app,

01:02:21.200 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:02:24.340 Hey, I'm Radhi Devlukia, and I'm the host of A Really Good Cry podcast,

01:02:27.820 and I have the opportunity to talk to Dr. Julie Smith.

01:02:30.860 Julie is a clinical psychologist, a best-selling author,

01:02:33.520 and one of the most trusted voices in mental health online.

01:02:36.940 She was one of the first therapists to use TikTok as an educational platform.

01:02:40.780 And since then, she has built a global audience of nearly 10 million people

01:02:44.920 by making emotional support accessible, honest, and deeply human.

01:02:48.980 You know, resentment isn't something that the world owes you.

01:02:52.040 It's that, you know, something that you need to work on.

01:02:54.160 Yes.

01:02:54.440 I would say with this stuff is look out for those feelings of resentment

01:02:57.820 because they're a sign that there was some sort of boundary that wasn't held before.

01:03:02.720 You know, that if you're not asserting your own desires or wishes or needs

01:03:09.080 and then resenting your partner or your friend for filling the space for you,

01:03:15.200 then it comes back to, okay, well, what do you want that's not this?

01:03:18.960 Listen to A Really Good Cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

01:03:22.500 or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:03:24.060 Boy, I mean, you really hit me when you say of all the people that could have done it

01:03:31.480 so effectively, Tim could have done it.

01:03:34.520 I mean, extraordinarily well with not only his bio in the military as well,

01:03:38.200 but the person he is, there's a sweetness, a softness, there's a decency inherent in him.

01:03:46.240 There's not an edge.

01:03:47.360 People are not put off by Tim.

01:03:49.940 They feel they want to, he's a guy you want to support.

01:03:54.060 And his capacity to deliver that message would have been profound.

01:03:57.300 I couldn't agree with you more.

01:03:58.300 Really, I appreciate that insight.

01:04:01.000 So look, that begs the question, and you made the point,

01:04:03.540 and I appreciate you making the point because I was curious your thoughts

01:04:07.680 of whether or not Trump and Trumpism sort of reflects a policy shift

01:04:12.060 as opposed to sort of attaching themselves to the cultural shift

01:04:15.580 and identifying the issue, but not necessarily advancing policy to solve them.

01:04:20.120 You've advanced a number of principles, a number of ideas to solve.

01:04:24.060 And one of them reflected in that speech you just mentioned.

01:04:26.560 I mean, the importance of having young male teachers, the importance of having mentors,

01:04:31.600 the importance of focusing on issues related to vocational training,

01:04:36.540 the opportunities to find more areas for service and contribution,

01:04:41.400 to find meaning and purpose and mission in one's life, the issues around mental health.

01:04:46.000 Tell me more about those areas and tell me about this frame that you've put together called HEAL

01:04:51.240 to sort of attach the STEM framework as it relates to getting women and girls in the STEM field.

01:04:56.820 You want to focus on this thing called H-E-A-L.

01:05:00.780 Yes.

01:05:01.440 Yes, thank you.

01:05:02.440 So most people know what STEM is by now, the science, technology, engineering, and math.

01:05:08.220 What many people don't know is that it originally wasn't going to be called that.

01:05:11.100 It was going to be called SMET, S-M-E-T, and then Judith Ramley at the National Science Foundation said,

01:05:16.400 can I call it STEM?

01:05:17.380 And they said, sure, whatever, Judith.

01:05:19.420 And the rest is history.

01:05:21.560 But you're right that we've made huge efforts both to invest in STEM, but also to get more women into STEM.

01:05:26.960 And we have much further to go, especially in the area of technology.

01:05:29.820 But we have tripled the share of STEM workers that are female, up to about 27% now in the U.S. compared to the 1970s. 0.70

01:05:37.440 That's not an accident.

01:05:38.840 That was a result of concerted public policy, as you know, of getting into middle schools, of scholarships,

01:05:44.460 of various advocacy groups to really get more women into those professions and to start seeing them as professions that were for them. 0.99

01:05:51.060 But heel jobs are those that are in health and education and requiring more literacy skills than math skills.

01:05:59.320 Not just written literacy, but kind of emotional literacy, verbal communication.

01:06:03.260 And so those would be jobs like teaching, nursing, health care assistants, social work, mental health professionals, etc.

01:06:10.180 And what's really striking about that is that the share of men in those fields has actually gone down.

01:06:16.960 So the share of women in those STEM jobs has gone up, but we have fewer men in those heel jobs. 0.98

01:06:22.140 So as I mentioned a moment ago, declining share of male teachers.

01:06:25.200 It was 33% when Tim Walsh was a teacher, was the male share.

01:06:29.620 Now it's 23% and falling and continues to fall.

01:06:34.760 And there is yet to be a sustained public policy effort to do anything about that.

01:06:41.200 I'm pleased to see some governors.

01:06:42.880 I know you're interested in it.

01:06:44.180 I've seen Gretchen Whitmer and Wes Moore and others really start to talk about this issue.

01:06:49.860 And you mentioned Josh Hawley a moment ago who wrote his own book on this.

01:06:54.340 To be fair, the one thing that he agreed with me on was this,

01:06:57.460 that actually it would be good to get more men in our classrooms. 0.99

01:07:00.120 And so if you've got Josh Hawley on board on one side and the American Psychological Association,

01:07:05.380 quite a progressive organization, also saying, that's a big tent to work with.

01:07:09.500 I can work with that.

01:07:10.880 If I've lost everybody to the right of Hawley and everybody to the left of the APA, I can live with that.

01:07:16.680 But it's also true in mental health care.

01:07:18.600 So the share of men in social work, or I should say the share of social workers who are male is now 20%.

01:07:26.040 It was 40% in the 70s.

01:07:29.860 The share of psychologists that are male is 20%.

01:07:32.300 It was more than 50% in the 70s.

01:07:34.960 And so we are cratering the share of men in education and in mental health care,

01:07:40.740 just at a point in our history where we're so worried about education, especially for boys.

01:07:45.100 And we're so worried about mental health care.

01:07:47.220 And where we have this rising suicide rate among men.

01:07:49.780 I think representation really matters in those fields.

01:07:54.140 And gender is part of that story. 0.97

01:07:56.060 There are other kinds of representation, too.

01:07:58.520 But I'm going to get out on a limb here and say,

01:08:00.940 I think that if the teaching profession, social work profession, psychology profession were becoming all male,

01:08:08.840 you'd be reading about it.

01:08:11.080 And we'd be acting on it.

01:08:12.420 We would not think it was a good idea.

01:08:15.480 Isn't it true the other way around as well?

01:08:17.500 And again, people are worried that they somehow, oh, this is about men.

01:08:21.140 I'm like, when I wanted therapy, when my son wanted therapy,

01:08:24.700 it was really great to be able to find a male.

01:08:28.640 All right?

01:08:28.900 Not for everything and not for everybody.

01:08:30.360 But I do think it should be an option to be able to find men.

01:08:33.800 And the other thing is, those fields need workers.

01:08:37.640 There are labor shortages.

01:08:38.920 And it's not a very good idea to try and solve a labor shortage with half the workforce.

01:08:43.140 And there are jobs.

01:08:44.820 So if we can do for HEAL these health and education jobs for men, 0.84

01:08:49.560 what we did for women into STEM, put the same kind of effort on, 0.65

01:08:52.940 that would, I think, be a huge win.

01:08:54.300 It would actually be a win, win, win.

01:08:55.680 It would be a win for the professions who need workers.

01:08:57.880 It would be a win for the people using our schools and hospitals

01:09:01.180 and mental health professions who would see themselves reflected in it.

01:09:04.940 And it would be a win for men, many of whom are kind of looking for jobs now.

01:09:08.340 And so I'd love to see a concerted policy effort,

01:09:10.980 really learning the lessons from women in STEM around these jobs.

01:09:13.780 We can't have the gender, the degendering of the labor market only go one way. 1.00

01:09:18.940 Right?

01:09:19.100 I don't think we should be relaxed about that.

01:09:20.780 I'm certainly not relaxed about the cratering share of men in those professions.

01:09:24.100 And I don't think any policymaker should be.

01:09:26.180 It's interesting.

01:09:26.900 And I appreciate all of the above and hear you loudly and clearly in my day job

01:09:32.540 and my responsibility as governor to call that out and be more intentional in that space as well.

01:09:37.360 You also are very intentional.

01:09:38.860 And you've called out the importance of looking at men,

01:09:43.580 fathers in the context of paid parental leave.

01:09:46.740 Tell me more of what you're thinking is along those lines in terms of just,

01:09:51.420 and we didn't talk about fatherlessness.

01:09:53.880 We didn't get into that issue necessarily.

01:09:56.380 But I imagine in relationship to being a parent and a provider,

01:10:01.760 not just being a protector, but back to being a provider,

01:10:04.540 is not just about economic issues as it relates to being a breadwinner,

01:10:08.860 but also at home and making sure that you're providing for the family in terms of that care.

01:10:14.020 Yeah. And it speaks a bit to your wife's concerns, too, about the division of labor that we have around kids. 0.59

01:10:21.660 I mean, the main reason for the gender pay gap now is the care gap, 1.00

01:10:24.840 is that women are just doing much more of the care than men. 0.97

01:10:27.660 And I'm not suggesting that's going to go away overnight or that people shouldn't be free to choose whatever they want.

01:10:34.120 But I don't think policy should be inadvertently supporting these gender roles.

01:10:39.640 And so what that means is that if you have paid leave,

01:10:42.580 you should have paid leave for mothers and fathers independently available to each of them.

01:10:47.800 If we really think that dads matter, and I do,

01:10:51.240 then we've got to be saying that through policy.

01:10:53.480 And it's really interesting.

01:10:54.000 When I brought my book out, I made the proposal that moms and dads should each get six months of paid leave at a very high replacement rate.

01:11:05.580 And one of my friends says, what are you, European?

01:11:08.060 And I said, well, actually, by background, I am.

01:11:10.420 But I get it. It's like wildly utopian.

01:11:12.440 But, you know, guess what?

01:11:13.820 Under the Biden administration, the U.S. military introduced three months paid leave separately for mothers and fathers.

01:11:21.320 And so maybe we could try the same for civilians.

01:11:24.740 And the key point for me here is, A, paid leave is such an important policy.

01:11:30.900 And California, of course, is a very strong state-level policy, which I'm sure you're very proud of.

01:11:36.200 The U.S. doesn't.

01:11:37.280 But a lot of this is at state level.

01:11:39.080 But it's very important, both in the way that the policy is designed and the way that it's marketed and sold and described,

01:11:46.080 that it's not seen as maternity leave just called parental leave or paid leave.

01:11:51.600 It's got we've really got to ensure that fathers feel like this is for them as well and design it so that it's for them, too.

01:11:57.400 If we want more gender equality at work, we need more gender equality at home. 0.99

01:12:02.500 And we also need more dads involved in their kids' lives. 0.99

01:12:06.380 And there are lots of things that's hard to do through policy.

01:12:09.120 Maybe many of the things we've talked about today, there's no obvious policy solution.

01:12:16.100 But paid leave for dads is a policy solution that works.

01:12:21.100 They have more egalitarian relationships with their partners.

01:12:24.560 They are more involved with their kids' lives years later.

01:12:27.400 And so there is a policy.

01:12:29.020 It's a pro-male policy that's on the table and that is one that should be being supported by most people, 1.00

01:12:35.440 certainly on the Democrat side, but it should be being sold as a pro-male, pro-dad policy.

01:12:41.320 And it currently isn't being sold that way.

01:12:44.100 Well said.

01:12:44.540 And it sure is held by definition a pro-family policy in terms of strengthening that family bond.

01:12:50.920 Well, Richard, thank you for sort of strengthening our attention to this critical issue.

01:12:56.260 And I'm just, you know, I've been really inspired not only by your work, but by sort of the rediscovery

01:13:05.140 of your work, because you've been at this for some time.

01:13:08.520 And to see all the energy and support that you're getting to have the opportunity to dialogue

01:13:14.500 with Scott Galloway and the work he's doing, highlighting this space.

01:13:18.240 I mean, it really is a call to arms.

01:13:20.000 This is not political.

01:13:21.040 This is about community.

01:13:22.220 This is about who we are.

01:13:23.640 It's about the Commonwealth more broadly.

01:13:26.040 And so I really want to just thank you for being such a powerful voice in that space,

01:13:31.260 but also sharing that voice with us here today.

01:13:34.120 So thank you for being on the podcast.

01:13:36.560 Thank you, Governor.

01:13:46.100 So what happened to Chappaquiddick?

01:13:48.080 Well, it really depends on who you talk to.

01:13:49.900 There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into

01:13:55.240 a pond and left a woman behind to drown. 1.00

01:13:59.580 Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.

01:14:04.420 Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family.

01:14:09.300 Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

01:14:14.660 podcasts.

01:14:15.300 The Stuff You Should Know guys have made their own summer playlists of their must-listen

01:14:23.060 podcasts on movies.

01:14:24.400 It's me, Josh, and I'd like to welcome you to the Stuff You Should Know summer movie

01:14:28.360 playlist.

01:14:29.180 What screams summer more than a nice, darkened, air-conditioned theater and a great movie

01:14:33.660 playing right in front of you.

01:14:35.020 Episodes on James Bond, special effects, stuntmen and women, disaster films, even movies that

01:14:39.960 change filmmaking, and many more.

01:14:41.720 Listen to the Stuff You Should Know summer movie playlist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

01:14:45.680 Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

01:14:49.080 This summer on the X-Ray Vision podcast, we're diving deep into the summer's biggest movies

01:14:54.020 from Jurassic World Rebirth to Fantastic Four.

01:14:56.420 Plus, we'll talk to the stars of Superman.

01:14:59.340 Is there a part of the Lois Lane costume that helped you feel like you were really stepping

01:15:03.680 into her?

01:15:05.040 It was the necklace for me.

01:15:07.120 Nobody's really asked that before, so thank you.

01:15:09.800 Listen to X-Ray Vision on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.

01:15:13.740 Open your free iHeartRadio app, search X-Ray Vision, and listen now.

01:15:19.100 Just like great shoes, great books take you places.

01:15:22.720 Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never

01:15:27.220 forget.

01:15:27.960 I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of, like, butterflies.

01:15:32.460 I'm Danielle Robay, and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club.

01:15:35.580 The new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts, where we dive into the stories that

01:15:40.900 shape us, on the page and off.

01:15:43.320 Each week, I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars, and more for conversations

01:15:48.140 that will make you laugh, cry, and add way too many books to your TBR pile.

01:15:53.400 Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

01:15:58.460 you get your podcasts.

01:15:59.440 I'm Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, host of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast.

01:16:04.820 I know how overwhelming it can feel if flying makes you anxious.

01:16:08.980 In Session 418 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, Dr. Angela Neal Barnett and I discuss

01:16:14.620 flight anxiety.

01:16:15.980 What is not normal is to allow it to prevent you from doing the things that you want to

01:16:21.680 do, the things that you were meant to do.

01:16:24.440 Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

01:16:29.200 podcast.

01:16:30.420 This is an iHeart Podcast.

This is Gavin Newsom - July 30, 2025

And, This is How The Left Fails Young Men with Richard Reeves

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