Jordan Klepper is a stand-up comedian, writer, and podcaster. In this episode, he joins us to talk about the current state of the country, and how we can all work together to make things better for all of us.
00:42:53.140He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you.
00:42:58.580Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short-term, highly regimented correctional
00:43:04.480programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison
00:43:11.100life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor, and rehabilitation programs.
00:43:17.840Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six
00:43:24.240months. The first night was so overwhelming, and you don't know who's next to you. And we didn't know
00:43:29.860what to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything. Listen to Shock Incarceration on the
00:43:34.280iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:43:38.360Was it predictable to you that Trump would find his way back? I mean, at that moment,
00:43:47.040you must thought, this is it. This is over. Over and out. I mean, he's toast.
00:43:52.040Yeah. I mean, this news cycle, it eats its own tail so quickly. But watching Republican
00:44:00.520Congress folks stand up and talk about January 6th, the day after, talking about Lindsey Graham
00:44:07.940articulate being done, like, go back and watch those. I did recently, and it was like, wow,
00:44:14.720the certainty, the bipartisan nature of seeing chaos and a reality in front of our own eyes
00:44:21.600and calling it out. I mean, it's the most photographed crime in human history.
00:44:26.680If we as Americans can't watch that and say, we don't support this, this is the line. And it felt
00:44:33.960like there was a moment where that was the narrative, and that was discussed. And so, yes,
00:44:39.660I thought that was the end of the Trump chapter, at least in terms of being president, that this MAGA
00:44:45.380movement is still looking for a leader, and that won't die out. I didn't think it would end quite that
00:44:50.220quick. But the fact that it has resurfaced like this, and he's found his way back into office,
00:44:55.600I don't think I fully saw it coming. Although, as I started to go back on the trail,
00:45:00.320the numbers seemed lower, but it didn't seem like it was impossible for it to happen again.
00:45:05.100Finding that meaning and community once again. I mean, you also had to find your way back. I think
00:45:10.320the interesting thing about you is, it's one thing to go back during COVID, you got a mask on,
00:45:14.680there's some anonymity, people know you, but don't really know you. I mean, how in the hell do you show
00:45:20.300up at a Trump rally nowadays? I mean, you're too well known, sorry, my friend, you have secure,
00:45:27.300I mean, now that security is not just there for a moment, like January 6. I mean, and you've got,
00:45:32.680you've got infamous examples of people that will see you, call you out, call you fake news, the brick
00:45:37.620suit man, we'll get to him in a minute. Among others, there's sort of these infamous interactions
00:45:41.960that you've had over the years. But how is that? I mean, how is, how is that journey now,
00:45:45.940in terms of reconnect, or you get to know all these people, and they love you? Like,
00:45:49.660hey, Jordan, good to see you, buddy. I have friends that I see at these rallies now. I know
00:45:55.120all of the t-shirt salesmen, we're pals, we see each other every week. I do have multiple friends
00:46:02.260who I've talked to over the years that it's nice to like reconnect with and see how their thoughts
00:46:07.240have changed, or if they haven't. And it is remarkable. Like sometimes people will seek out
00:46:12.860to talk to me, sometimes people will say no way. I think the thing that was both eye opening
00:46:17.680and disheartening was I went to CPAC a couple years ago, and assumed, assumed going to CPAC
00:46:25.240that no one would want to talk to me. That that's it's sort of ridiculous that we got credentials
00:46:29.800to be there, but we'll see who would want to talk to me. I was a rock star at CPAC. And,
00:46:35.880and it, and for two reasons, like there was a line of young Republican Congress hopefuls
00:46:43.700who wanted to talk to me, were desperate to talk to me. And, and literally you saw it. I saw Marjorie
00:46:50.040Taylor Greene walk through the hall with 10 press behind her. And you see these young Congress folks,
00:46:56.500these hopefuls from the middle of Indiana, who are watching her and they're like, oh my god,
00:47:00.680that's the attention. What do I need to do? What do I need to do? Let me talk to this guy.
00:47:04.160Let me talk to this guy. And so there was, there was the line literally handing my producer cards.
00:47:09.800Please talk to me. I would love to talk to you. You're just like, oh, these are, and I talked to
00:47:13.500a few people. These are moderate, good, young, nice people running for office, but you see their head
00:47:21.280shifting where they're like, oh, that's not the game, the game. I have to be big. I have to court a
00:47:25.940fight with this guy. I got to own the libs. I have to do this. And then secondarily, I ran into MAGA
00:47:31.140fans at CPAC, specifically like this 18 or 19 year old boy who is a Trump super fan. And he showed
00:47:38.800me pictures in his home of Trump cutouts and posters, pictures with Trump. He loved, his whole
00:47:44.800identity was Donald Trump. And he sought me out. He was like, I want to talk to you. I want to get
00:47:48.140pictures. I asked a point, Blake, I was like, you know who I am. You know what I want to talk about.
00:47:53.920You know my point of view. Why do you want to talk to me? And he's like, you're part of it. You're part
00:47:59.320of the world. You're one of the bad guys. Get a picture with me. And it's, I'm the heel. Like in the
00:48:04.820UFC world, these guys, they don't like me, but I'm the bad guy to them in this world. So they want a
00:48:11.580picture with it. And it's a game and it's a performance. So collect all the characters, try to get
00:48:18.260their autographs. It's, it's just a game to be played. Jordan, you have no idea how much that
00:48:23.340resonates with me and how much I appreciate that. I mean, I have so many similar experiences
00:48:27.420along those lines. It's so what, I mean, you know, I, well, let me go back. Cause I,
00:48:33.600people are like, what the hell is he talking about with this brick suit, man? But yes, I think it goes
00:48:37.460to the, goes to the essence of what you just described as well, which is your ability to connect
00:48:42.260with the other side and the challenges that we all have connecting with people that we vehemently
00:48:46.560disagree with in terms of worldview and points of view. Just, you know, so many people just,
00:48:50.760I don't understand how hot, what's going on in my, it just makes no sense, et cetera.
00:48:56.180And you had an interesting infamous, and I don't want to belabor it because it's, it's well
00:49:00.580chronical, but you had like this three and a half hour conversation with someone that was going after
00:49:05.640you at one of the Trump rallies. And the two of you just happened to get stuck at an airport. I think
00:49:11.540in Green Bay, Wisconsin, if my memory serves. And you guys are stuck together waiting for a damn
00:49:15.940plane, just the luck, you know, what are the chances of this? And so you had nothing else to
00:49:20.100do. So you ended up spending all that time bullshitting back and forth. What happened?
00:49:25.480Yeah. It's, we, we got to know each other as humans and not as, uh, performers in front of a
00:49:32.220medium. And it was, it was a remarkable day. Like, like you said, he spent, um, the entire shoot day
00:49:40.740heckling our camera crew. And he's sort of an infamous MAGA celebrity that Trump brings on
00:49:46.340stage. Cause he's dressed like the border wall. And when I see him at the airport, the last thing
00:49:50.960I wanted to do was spend three and a half hours talking and fighting with this guy over politics.
00:49:56.120But, but it was remarkable in that. Like, I, I joke that we're away from our mediums, but it is true.
00:50:02.840Like our guards were down. Like he's, he's not performing for a camera and playing a part of the
00:50:08.320brick suit guy. That doesn't mean that he's not, he doesn't believe many of the things that he talks
00:50:13.080about. I don't think he's insincere in that, but I think he's a larger version of certainty that exists
00:50:18.560in his, his heart as, as am I, as a person who was in front of the camera as well. And, and with no
00:50:24.900cameras, no microphones, when we got past, like, is this person recording something to try to make
00:50:29.980the other person look bad? Like, then we just started talking about, about his certainties around
00:50:35.340Trump. I think what was surprising to me, like he talked about like, again, he is, he's in some
00:50:40.980ways the manifestation of like a Trump supporter, but he would articulate to me was that he wears
00:50:45.860the brick suit because he sees it as a meme and memes are attention getting. And he wants the
00:50:52.240attention of a camera and he wants to articulate that MAGA vision because he sees himself as more
00:50:56.740articulate in the ways of Trump than other people. And I don't think he's wrong. I think that's
00:51:01.140probably a savvy move. But as we talked beyond the cameras, like he talked about how he didn't
00:51:07.900think Trump won the last election, which is bonkers not to believe the big lie. If you are the big
00:51:12.920face, they told me he wished he'd move on. He had political disagreements with them. He had more of a
00:51:18.040libertarian streak and loved to be an online troll. That seemed to be most of his personality. And he
00:51:23.320would be open about that. Like he loved to go onto Reddit boards, stir shit up and, and get people
00:51:28.940upset. That's sort of what he thought was funny and comedic. And so like, I, I got it. It wasn't
00:51:34.080my thing. He was way into history. He was the smart guy. This is the thing that I always think
00:51:38.040about when, when progressive people, when Democrats come up to me and they want to say like, Oh, all
00:51:42.940those crazy people you talk to, like I talked to people who believe crazy things and you need to
00:51:48.400understand those are separate things. And brick suit guy, I don't agree with the things he talks
00:51:53.820about, but the man who has a handlebar mustache and five bespoke brick suits that he goes up on
00:51:59.460stage and talks about, you'd like to think he's an idiot and he's not, he's smart. He's smart. And
00:52:05.500we, we talked, we had good conversations. We, we found if not common ground, like we softened on some
00:52:12.580of the certainties that we had around issues that we were less aware of than perhaps we would perform
00:52:17.260in front of a camera. Um, and I say this, the moment that sticks with me is like, we got on the train,
00:52:22.320the plane still talking. And, uh, I was in an exit row and was asked if I wanted to took on the
00:52:29.580responsibilities of being in an exit row. And I took to him and I mischievously say, I hope this
00:52:34.960freaks you the fuck out, man. And, and he laughs and, and in retrospective like that, that was, that's
00:52:43.300it. Every conversation I have with so many other people, you don't get to the point where you're
00:52:48.700actually laughing together because your identity is at stake because any challenge to your certainty,
00:52:53.860any challenge to a thing you have said is seen as like an existential attack on who you are.
00:52:59.340But I, I knew who this guy was. I spent three and a half hours with him. We connected on some stuff.
00:53:05.340And so when I poked him, he didn't crumble, didn't, didn't just explode into just dust. He laughed and I
00:53:13.540laughed back and I'm like, Oh, that's, that still exists. That exists in America. We're not as,
00:53:18.400as polarized as, as, as some people would say that the conversation pulls us that way. And it looks
00:53:23.280that way. But if you could spend three and a half hours with somebody in a green Bay airport,
00:53:27.780you're going to at least, at least get to the point where you, you believe the same premise of
00:53:32.980the joke. And that to me speaks to not separate realities, but at least a generalized understanding.
00:53:38.780No, thank you for sharing that story. I think it's incredibly important. And it's what we need to
00:53:44.580hear right now, because I mean, I keep saying a divorce is not an option. And at the end of the
00:53:51.200day, we've got to live together across our differences and, and it's exhausting. I mean,
00:53:55.200it is this zero sum thinking, this notion, you know that, you know, everybody's just at each other
00:54:00.94024 seven. You feel like, you know, you're waking up and, you know, people are trying to put a crowbar
00:54:06.300in the spokes, the wheels of your front tire and trip you up. And so this notion that we, you know,
00:54:11.660are all better off, we're all better off. This notion that we all want to be loved and need to be
00:54:15.560loved is so foundational. But at the same time, I imagine for you, it's still a struggle in terms of
00:54:21.600changing minds, because I've seen so many clips with you where you've presented something, you know,
00:54:27.720just a perfect example. You had a woman who was very upset that notion that a woman, I think
00:54:33.660Kamala Harris at the time, it may have been Hillary, but I think it was Kamala, was going
00:54:38.000to be president because she said, as a woman, she says too many hormones, she's going to get us into
00:54:42.340a war. And your immediate retort is, well, haven't all the wars been started by men? And she paused
00:54:49.400and still went on. I mean, you didn't change her mind. And this notion of changing minds,
00:54:55.200changing hearts, changing behaviors. I imagine that's been a struggle for you with all of these
00:55:01.100interactions. Yeah, it is. I mean, I will say, the intention of these interactions is not to change.
00:55:08.900The intention is like, again, my bias is towards comedy, finding hypocrisy and irony. And more often
00:55:16.740than not, it's like, I'm curious as to how far the propaganda has spread and how deep it is inside
00:55:22.540these people's mindsets. And so I don't find people's minds being changed, being confronted with
00:55:28.900information. And frankly, across the board in my personal life as well. It's like, oh, this idea
00:55:34.760that, oh, if I have the information and give this person, that mind will get changed. I think one of my
00:55:41.080favorite interactions was, I was talking to a woman during Trump's first impeachment, and she was talking
00:55:47.940about how Trump is innocent. And this was the time when he was blocking testimony from John Bolton, amongst
00:55:54.220other people's. And I said, well, if he was innocent, he wouldn't be blocking people from
00:55:58.920testifying. She's like, exactly. He's innocent. He wants everybody to speak. He wants everybody to
00:56:02.560testify. And I was like, well, so if he was blocking people, that would be like proof of his guilt. She
00:56:06.660was like, of course, of course, but he's not doing that. And I say, well, he is doing that. And she takes
00:56:12.160this really long beat and she thinks about it. She really hears me. And then she goes, I don't care.
00:56:17.000Yeah. And, and that's, I was like, thank you. Because more often than not, the conversations
00:56:22.380that I have out there, the politics is the pretense. It's the fun. It's the parrying that
00:56:27.300people have. This is identity for so many people. And they will jump into the abortion debate. And
00:56:32.740some people believe it vehemently, but more often than not, it's just the, it's the tools you use to,
00:56:38.020to play the identity. And so, so when it comes to like changing people's minds, changing people's
00:56:43.160identity is hard. Once you put on that hat, people see you in that hat. And it's not just that you
00:56:48.200can take the hat off because your whole community saw you as the guy with that hat. And that's a
00:56:53.180hard thing. It's beyond just buying it. It's how you are perceived. It's how now your families see
00:56:58.620you. It's, I think about like families who have now lived in this, this Trump era for 12 years.
00:57:04.720You've lost friendships, family members based on it. Like to change your mind is a big, big,
00:57:10.660big ask. And so I don't, I don't think it, I don't, I don't think it happens with just facts,
00:57:16.280but I do think like, to me, what I'm always on and on about is the certainty that we have that I
00:57:24.240think is so unbecoming. And it is, it is, it is a necessary trait in the world of social media and
00:57:31.520online engagement to be the most certain loudest version of yourself. But, but the only way that I've
00:57:37.940seen any kind of movement and change or like with the brick suit guy, like a moment or a space for
00:57:45.440that, it comes with, with uncertainty that I bring to the table and, and then he can match it. And so
00:57:52.780for all of my well-meaning, thoughtful, progressive folks who are like, if I just get the right
00:57:58.280information and article to give to my cousin, it will be fine. I'm like, I don't think it's going to
00:58:03.660do it. Give it a shot. But to me, the only softening I've seen is when you enter the conversation
00:58:10.740with an, I don't know, or something you are uncertain about, which is a scary place. The
00:58:16.960internet doesn't want you to start that way. But, but like that invitation has been the only way to
00:58:22.840get somebody else to at least like, like at least bring the barricades down a bit to let some new light
00:58:29.420in and see. Hey guys, it's AZ Fudd. You may know me as a gold medalist. You may know me as an NCAA
00:58:38.860national champion and recent most outstanding player. You may even know me as a people's princess,
00:58:44.340but now you're also going to know me as your favorite host. Every week on my new podcast,
00:58:49.440Fudd Around and Find Out, I'll give you an inside look at everything happening in my crazy life as I
00:58:54.480try to balance it all. From my travels across the globe to preparing for another run at the Natty with
00:58:59.000my UConn Huskies to just try to make it to my midterms on time, you'll get the inside scoop
00:59:03.380on everything. I'll be talking to some special guests about pop culture, basketball, and what
00:59:08.120it's like to be a professional athlete on and off the court. You'll even get to have some fun with
00:59:12.740the Fudd family. So if you follow me on social media or watch me on TV, you may think you know me,
00:59:18.560but this show is the only place where you can really Fudd Around and Find Out. Listen to Fudd Around and Find
00:59:23.920Out, a production of iHeart Women's Sports in partnership with Unanimous Media on the iHeartRadio app,
00:59:28.820Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:59:34.060Have you ever looked at a piece of abstract art or music or poetry and thought,
00:59:38.080that's just a bunch of pretentious nonsense? Well, that's exactly what two bored Australian
00:59:42.980soldiers set out to prove during World War II, when they pulled off what was either a bold literary
00:59:48.080hoax or a grand poetic experiment, publishing over a dozen intentionally bad but highly acclaimed
00:59:54.040works of expressionist poetry under the name Earn Malley in an incident that caused a media firestorm
01:00:00.140and even a criminal trial. The Earn Malley episode made fools of believers and critics alike and still
01:00:06.280fascinates poetry lovers to this day. We break down the truth, the lies, and the poetry in between on
01:00:12.040Hoax, a new podcast hosted by me, Lizzie Logan, and me, Dana Schwartz. Every episode, Hoax explores an audacious
01:00:19.540fraud or ruse from history, from forged artworks to the original fake news, to try and answer why we believe.
01:00:27.180Listen to Hoax on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:00:31.460The Stuff You Should Know guys have made their own summer playlists of their must-listen podcasts on movies.
01:00:39.120It's me, Josh, and I'd like to welcome you to the Stuff You Should Know summer movie playlist.
01:00:43.880What screams summer more than a nice, darkened, air-conditioned theater and a great movie playing right in front of you.
01:00:49.740Episodes on James Bond, special effects, stuntmen and women, disaster films, even movies that change filmmaking, and many more.
01:00:56.420Listen to the Stuff You Should Know summer movie playlist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
01:01:04.100American history is full of wise people.
01:01:08.720What women said something like, you know, 99.99% of war is diarrhea and 1% is gory.
01:01:14.960Those founding fathers were gossipy AF, and they loved to cut each other down.
01:01:20.820I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, the show where you send us your questions about American history, and I find the answers, including the nuggets of wisdom our history has to offer.
01:01:33.740Hamilton pauses, and then he says, the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar.
01:01:39.280And Jefferson writes in his diary, this proves that Hamilton is for a dictator based on corruption.
01:01:45.660My favorite line was what Neil Armstrong said, it would have been harder to fake it than to do it.
01:01:52.160Listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:02:03.120A foot washed up a shoe with some bones in it.
01:02:41.740On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors.
01:02:46.420And you'll meet the team behind the scenes at Othram, the Houston lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable.
01:02:56.280Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:03:22.680I mean, that invites what to you in this whole conversation.
01:03:27.800What does Epstein mean in relationship to everything you just said?
01:03:31.360Well, it's fascinating to watch it play out on the right because it does feel like it feels like a promise broken right now.
01:03:41.120It's Epstein and this idea of this conspiracy that would come out was something I heard on the trail for the last eight years.
01:03:48.940And I do think, to me, like, we talked a little bit about this and some off-camera about, like, about the difficulty of governing.
01:03:59.720And I think so many people who go to a Trump rally and are there just for the show and the community, I think part of it's because there's a disconnect between what they see governing as and what politics is.
01:04:15.580Like, I think, like, they feel disconnected from what government can do for them.
01:04:20.020And so, therefore, they might as well have fun with the game of the politics.
01:04:22.820And Trump is like, well, let me just play the politics part.
01:04:25.400And when he gets into the governing part, what I'm curious about right now is like, well, there's a connection now.
01:04:30.680Now this person actually has the power that you have given them.
01:04:34.920Do you like your health care options right now?
01:04:37.040Do you like what's happening at the border?
01:04:39.040Do you like the information that you're getting or not getting about Jeffrey Epstein?
01:04:42.660But Trump has done a good job of living in the chasm between politics and governing.
01:04:48.580And so I do think there is a real disconnect with so many people who voted for Trump, not with a true idea that they thought he would change things, but that he was the most interesting version to be in a system that they thought could never change.
01:05:02.740And the Epstein thing cracks it a bit, because if you've really bought into this conspiratorial mindset, which a lot of people have, and that these people can deliver this truth to you, it's hard not to see the writing that is on the wall.
01:05:20.580Occam's razor is super sharp here about why some of this information might be withheld, why you're not getting all the things you were promised.
01:05:28.940And I think we're going to see all the shucking and jiving from the Trump administration trying to get you to focus on something else.
01:05:34.960But it is an inherent lie towards the Trump brand that I don't know what the long-term effects of it will be, but I think his success will be in the fact that if he's created a populace that is so pessimistic about the effect of the government, then he may win out in this.
01:05:56.960But if there's actually some faith left in that these people can do good for you, he's going to have a hard time writing that circle.
01:06:05.300And before we close, Duran, I'm interested in, I want to connect back to that 18, 19-year-old guy that, you know, just his identity, speaking of identity, was all attached to Trump.
01:06:16.180But also to you, in some respects, that's all part of this sort of dialectic and this game as you describe it.
01:06:24.500And everyone's relationship to one another, the good versus the bad, you know, the truth, all that.
01:06:30.780What, you know, if you've seen just through your journey, you look at young folks and you've done a lot on masculinity.
01:06:39.640You've talked about, you know, we talk so much about telling boys what not to be.
01:06:44.760We don't talk about what they should be.
01:06:46.920And there's the Andrew Tates of the world that infamously sort of fill that void.
01:06:51.220And we've seen that weaponized with Trump, et cetera.
01:06:53.840And you see that 18, 19-year-old, you see your own son.
01:06:58.720Where are we in terms of the generational shift on all of this?
01:07:02.880Even in the distinction you just made around campaigning versus governing and the relationship to Epstein and that.
01:07:09.120But is there, do you see any generational changes underway?
01:07:14.000Do you see any hope in that distinction, young versus old, new versus, you know, what's?
01:07:21.040I mean, I do, I think your podcast with Richard Reeves, I thought was great.
01:07:26.460And I think there's a lot of people talking really in depth about this crisis of masculinity that's happening right now,
01:07:32.060which I'm seeing echoed in all of the places that I go to.
01:07:36.580This, I did a special recently that was looking at sort of the new MAGA movement.
01:07:41.860And where I found hope was sort of in a surprising place.
01:10:01.460They weren't interested in the cruelty of that message.
01:10:03.980But they were interested in the performance of that message.
01:10:06.220They were interested in the popularity of that message.
01:10:08.500But at their core, these were nice kids who are still forming their own worldview in a kind space.
01:10:15.580And so when I think of that younger generation, I think there is a kindness there that is different than the hardened, older MAGA generation that we see right now.
01:10:28.200And I hope there is space for them to find what they care about and do good in this world and not sort of be manipulated by these older generations who want nothing more than to weaponize these points of view and these malleable minds.
01:11:01.060But without the situational awareness that a lot of this sort of ideological identity politics, this sort of notion of community and meaning also finds its way on the left as well, not denying that.
01:11:14.460What, you know, in terms of that, to the extent that does exist and one has to stipulate it does.
01:11:19.980What is the what have you learned about MAGA?
01:11:36.020Any prescription for my party that's struggling?
01:11:38.680I mean, you know, The Wall Street Journal, lowest.
01:11:41.700You know, there's no doubt you look at the polling on the Democratic Party.
01:11:45.380Some don't like it referred to as toxic, but it's toxic for a lot of people.
01:11:50.260People sort of immediately are moving away from it.
01:11:53.120What's your over under in terms of what we can do differently or better?
01:11:57.900Are there lessons that we can learn from the MAGA movement there, I say or suggest, from the experiences you've had in those 100 rallies, 90 to 100 rallies with humility and grace that I think a party that is out of power needs?
01:12:13.020Yeah, I mean, I think there's there's like there's functional things, which is like meeting people where they are.
01:12:18.580And I think like literally we we joke about this, but it is it is podcast, the Internet, like understand the conversations where you need to have those conversations.
01:12:26.120I think that's like that's that's baseline.
01:12:28.580But a big part of what I see a younger generation connecting to is authenticity.
01:12:35.180And and it feels it took me a while to see what was authentic about Donald Trump in so many ways, a very inauthentic human being who's constantly projecting things that are untrue.
01:12:46.900But the feeling of Donald Trump is is is one that I think is received as authentic for so many people there.
01:12:53.960He feels like if not a truth teller, somebody who says it like it is, who's not beholden to other things.
01:12:59.460Again, the veracity of that I don't stand for, but I do see people like, oh, they don't see him as a politician where they connect with him is on an authentic space.
01:13:09.280And I do when I hear the Democratic Party to talk about, you know, who is who are the next faces and how do we do this?
01:13:16.240And I know you're a part of that conversation.
01:13:18.640The AOCs are part of the conversation in New York.
01:13:21.580Mamdani is such an interesting part of the conversation right now where where that on a local level was really fascinating to watch.
01:13:29.060Like all the prognosticators said, like, oh, this isn't how New York works.
01:13:34.240But then there's this guy who's like, ah, I want to talk about stuff that I think is important, which is like jobs and people are hurting jobs.
01:13:49.380And and that broke through in a way that I think a lot of New Yorkers are like, huh, everybody told us this wouldn't break through.
01:13:54.480I think this next wave of Democratic leadership and this party needs to needs to one know people, people want action and they want people authentically want to make change.
01:14:07.100I don't know how like I do think what what the Republican Party has done so well is create a party of like pointing at them and they are the problems.
01:14:14.780And I think you're seeing now, like, what can they solve in governing?
01:14:26.400But I think big action by Democrats to to really go after those core issues of of of health and of jobs by somebody who feels like they're talking man on man with the Democratic populace, I feel like that's where it's going to live.
01:14:42.340And so much of the party I hear talking about, like, are we too left?
01:14:48.740Like, like, you need to be a person, a part like right now, all of these kids, these younger generations, they are staring at phones with a person that they feel connected to who tells them to buy this lipstick.
01:15:05.520You need to be an authentic person who can communicate.
01:15:09.340And that's why it can look like Bernie Sanders or it could look like AOC, two very different people of different generations, but who feel authentic to an audience.
01:15:16.660It's like I think that message has to feel authentic, be authentic and be one of like of change.
01:15:22.740Because people, people feel so scared right now and so nervous right now, like this idea of who has a vision for change that I can believe and trust.
01:15:32.580I think that's what people want, everybody.
01:15:34.200And even on the right, where it cracks in the MAGA movement, it's like, tell me that you see a way that this can be better and bigger and fairer.
01:15:42.180I think that is a populist message that like the Dems can own.
01:15:45.880I want to end there, but I want to get to redistricting because the tactics of that and what Donald Trump, I mean, he was on CNBC today and he was asked about the Texas redistricting.
01:15:58.920He said that he's earned the right to have those five seats.
01:16:04.360I mean, it's analogous to the hour long phone call with the secretary of state in Georgia, find me 11,000, however many 12,000 votes.
01:16:12.040Now he says to Greg Abbott, the governor of Texas, find me five seats.
01:16:15.460And he said, I won Texas overwhelmingly.
01:16:18.940And in order to make everything else possible to have that conversation about health care and about affordability and about being able to even introduce yourself as the authentic self.
01:16:28.380When we're rigging a system or changing the game mid census in this case, that's pretty damn alarming.
01:16:37.040Now this guy realizes in 18 months, he may have some oversight with a different majority, the Democratic majority in Congress, in the House in particular.
01:18:01.800And so I feel like that is, like, a new framing device for democracy, which I wish we were able to push back against that.
01:18:11.460And so you have what you guys are talking about doing here, too, which I will say I have, like, I don't know how to feel about it.
01:18:20.040I am so scared as to what Trump is doing.
01:18:23.740And it is so unfair and so undemocratic and just a power grab.
01:18:27.960And on one hand, I'm like, I want to see Democratic governors and Democrats fight back, fight fire with fire.
01:18:34.740I think that is what there is a real yearning for.
01:18:37.080And at the same time, I am scared to run into, like, an undemocratic arms race.
01:18:43.900And so I don't know, like, even walking into this podcast, I'm like, man,
01:18:49.680I respect that something that you do well is I think you step up to the plate with Donald Trump and you punch a bully in their chin.
01:18:57.700And I think that is a big part of where the Democratic base can find success in this movement.
01:19:02.780And yet I worry about, like, where are the norms that we have to keep in place and where are the norms that we have to throw out in order to be in a place where norms can exist?
01:19:14.320I mean, it's and as someone that supported independent redistricting as an elected official when it first was presented to the voters of California, it took me a little bit to get on the other side of this.
01:19:24.580But now I'm realizing, to your point, the existential nature of this moment.
01:19:28.960And the other side, there are no rules.
01:19:30.960They're assassins in this respect in terms of the approach they take to power and to ultimately control.
01:19:37.740And so, you know, we're not only going to fight fire with fire, we're going to punch above our weight.
01:19:42.980California is the size of 21 state populations combined.
01:19:51.520No state has more to give to this contribution of the counteroffensive than the state of California.
01:19:59.460So we'll neuter what they're doing in Texas, but we'll one up that because we'll take some of the more competitive districts and they'll be less competitive as a consequence.
01:21:22.000You know, keep doing what you're doing.
01:21:23.580But also, you know, if you need a, you need another job, if, if these sons of bitches figure out a way to cancel the Daily Show and try to cancel you, you're going to be in the political consulting business soon.