This is Gavin Newsom - And, This is Jordan Klepper

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00:01:00.000 Have you ever looked at a piece of abstract art or music or poetry and thought,

00:01:09.240 that's just a bunch of pretentious nonsense?

00:01:11.460 That's exactly what two bored Australian soldiers set out to prove during World War II

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00:01:40.360 I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, a different type of podcast.

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00:02:07.640 What's up, guys?

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00:02:48.840 This is Gavin Newsom.

00:02:52.280 And this is The Daily Show's Jordan Klepper.

00:02:59.720 Jordan, welcome.

00:03:00.880 Thank you for being on the podcast.

00:03:02.260 Thanks for having me.

00:03:03.960 Jesus.

00:03:04.340 So what, I mean, we were, you know, we were just commenting, full disclosure,

00:03:08.320 right before you came on the air.

00:03:10.080 Just a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety, a lot of, you know, people feeling a little more pessimistic.

00:03:16.320 We talk about doom scrolling, but just this notion of like feeling like things are way out of control,

00:03:23.160 particularly this week.

00:03:24.260 So many contemporary things to talk about.

00:03:25.840 And then I want to talk about your career and all the extraordinary things you're doing.

00:03:29.020 But we'd be remiss if not talking about this week in the United States, what's going on

00:03:33.860 in Texas and redistricting, what's happening in states like California, Illinois, New York,

00:03:39.360 as it relates to that as subject.

00:03:40.820 But particularly on the issue that really struck a chord with a lot of folks.

00:03:45.020 And that's on stats, on labor stats, on this notion that we can fire the messenger, the issue of truth and trust,

00:03:53.300 and feeling like America, as Tom Freeman wrote today, is being deconstructed.

00:03:59.340 I mean, where are you as someone that, you know, is deeply enmeshed in the body politic and crosses over

00:04:07.620 into points of view that are not often shared?

00:04:12.740 And you have a deeper understanding of the world we're living in.

00:04:15.520 Where are you in terms of this, you know, moment we're living in?

00:04:18.460 Are you pessimistic or more optimistic?

00:04:21.380 Well, I mean, I'm looking for a big enough rock to hide under more often than not.

00:04:26.300 It's hard to get caught up in the news cycle.

00:04:29.980 And when I go out there and talk to people as well, not only on the road and talk to people of

00:04:34.360 different political stripes, but I do a lot of stand up and I do a lot of talking with an audience

00:04:38.620 and people are scared.

00:04:39.720 And I get that you are not wrong.

00:04:42.140 It is infuriating to turn on the news and hear that suddenly, you know,

00:04:47.340 reporting the stats and numbers can get you fired.

00:04:51.020 It's not a terrible surprise.

00:04:53.020 I will tell you what, I'm out in the field and talking with a lot of MAGA supporters and

00:04:56.980 numbers come out.

00:04:58.340 Everybody sort of has their own statistician at that point.

00:05:01.740 Everybody has their own guy they can reference.

00:05:05.080 And in so many ways, I think this Trump administration feels like a reflection of the internet itself.

00:05:09.340 And this might be the Luddite in me, but it's so easy for us now to go search out the facts

00:05:14.620 that make us feel comfortable and reinforce the worldview that we have.

00:05:18.620 And the conversations I have with people online, which is the worst place to have conversations

00:05:22.420 with people, are often footnoted with websites and numbers and data that don't check out because

00:05:30.760 that's what you do now.

00:05:31.920 You have a conversation, you find the thing to make you right.

00:05:35.620 And I'd like to have hope in the higher levels that those conversations are based on fact.

00:05:41.140 I don't have a lot of that hope.

00:05:42.440 And so seeing the firing that took place this week is infuriating.

00:05:46.800 It scares a lot of people in my orbit, but it's not surprising.

00:05:50.460 It feels like an extension of the internet.

00:05:52.860 So what, I mean, what do you do in that instance?

00:05:54.780 I mean, it's interesting when you say it's not surprising.

00:05:56.640 So often I hear that and that's infuriating as well, because then it's almost a permission slip

00:06:01.100 that it's sort of acceptable because we've allowed a normalization of deviancy.

00:06:06.300 And so nothing then becomes surprising.

00:06:08.560 And then it becomes, we're sort of complicit in it.

00:06:10.860 All of a sudden it sort of manifests.

00:06:13.000 And I think that's the great struggle that we're all having is that we're seeing America

00:06:16.880 in reverse.

00:06:17.700 We're seeing, you know, we're seeing truth and trust.

00:06:20.560 We're seeing historical facts being rewritten.

00:06:22.800 We're seeing the sort of cultural purge happening, the shock and awe, overwhelming us.

00:06:28.240 And the zig and the zag, that is the distractions day in and day out.

00:06:32.220 So how do you, I mean, it's, I love that you say sort of manifestation of what's online

00:06:36.520 is becoming offline with Trump.

00:06:38.740 How do you start to navigate that?

00:06:41.360 I mean, is that the work you're doing to sort of distill the essence of that and using comedy

00:06:46.700 as an entryway to have that conversation?

00:06:50.520 Or what is your diagnosis beyond that in terms of what will you do to address it?

00:06:56.040 Well, I think we're all living under the fire hose of information and news and chaos.

00:07:01.080 And some of that can be argued as a strategy from a Trump administration.

00:07:05.220 Some, I think, as an extension of a mindset.

00:07:08.920 I do think, Ezra Klein made an interesting point recently that was, I think a lot of people

00:07:13.760 give the Trump administration credit for their diversions and their tangents.

00:07:17.740 And I think there's credence in something like that.

00:07:20.380 But I think also it's a manifestation of a mindset that he has that is constantly distracted.

00:07:26.740 And he's been given the ability to be distracted and to lose interest in Elon Musk and to jump

00:07:32.220 into something else.

00:07:33.380 And so, again, it feels like we're living in a world that is a manifestation of his mindset,

00:07:38.220 an internet mindset, a selfish mindset.

00:07:41.340 And there is this fire hose of news that is politically advantageous when you want to get

00:07:47.460 your own things across that might not be popular.

00:07:50.320 From a comedic standpoint, when we show up at work and we have this fire hose, like,

00:07:55.520 our job is not to solve it. 0.96

00:07:56.800 Our job is to find the chaos, see where the bullshit is, try to make some sense of it and 0.96

00:08:01.640 some humor of it. 0.69

00:08:02.540 I think at its clearest and best, satire can boil down a feeling and a moment into something

00:08:08.420 that's digestible and fast.

00:08:09.840 And so, for us, we try to wade through the fire hose, find what is important, and also

00:08:16.220 find what we can stick our POV onto with something that hopefully is funny and connects.

00:08:24.140 But it's a constant conversation that we're having day in and day out as to, like, how

00:08:27.960 do you deal with this?

00:08:29.820 And what is a distraction?

00:08:31.220 Again, we are legislating.

00:08:33.420 Our job is not to fix the solution.

00:08:35.580 Our job is, as a media satire, to look at it and find the humor within it.

00:08:40.460 But we are constantly having to make game time calls as to, like, are we covering what

00:08:45.680 happened in the Oval Office?

00:08:46.720 Are we covering what's happening with these ice raids?

00:08:49.340 Where does humor have a place?

00:08:52.500 Where is it best utilized?

00:08:54.720 And how do we make that work for us and our audience?

00:08:57.840 Jordan, it's interesting you say that, because, you know, it's interesting with The Daily Show

00:09:01.740 generally.

00:09:02.340 And, you know, Jon Stewart, it's sort of peak.

00:09:04.640 And I remember being really angry.

00:09:06.140 I honestly, I'm not—I think I told Jon this when we sat down.

00:09:10.140 We did something on the death penalty a few years ago.

00:09:12.800 And I think I told him, I said, I'm really pissed at you.

00:09:15.400 You walked away from your show with peak influence, where folks were tuning in, particularly young

00:09:21.180 folks, but people like me that were awash in everything going on in cable, that wanted

00:09:27.040 you to distill the essence using the lens of comedy, but also sort of guide us in a deeper

00:09:32.200 understanding to still through that wit and witticism and satire where we are and where

00:09:38.140 we need to go.

00:09:38.980 And I remember he retired right when the beginning of that election, like, no, you don't get

00:09:43.760 to go, Jon.

00:09:44.860 You have a responsibility.

00:09:46.700 So I'm interested, you know, people, I think, you know, particularly you, Jordan, we're going

00:09:51.460 to get to you specifically.

00:09:53.420 I mean, your improvisational skills, your capacity and sort of legendary capacity to go in and

00:10:01.520 to show empathy and compassion, humanity to people you disagree with, to go to these Trump

00:10:08.000 rallies, to meet with people, they still feel a comfort level to you.

00:10:12.580 That attracts folks that are looking for guidance, looking for direction.

00:10:17.040 And I wonder, you know, in a world where you just, you're watching the cable networks and

00:10:21.880 it's just a lot of noise, don't you feel, and I'm curious if you do, but do you feel

00:10:26.840 that comedy and the work you're doing actually is now more important in terms of providing

00:10:33.220 the way and not just distilling a moment of understanding, but also providing a light in

00:10:42.320 some direction?

00:10:44.320 I mean, that's, well, as a person in the entertainment industry and an actor, I do have a sense of

00:10:50.320 self-importance that does make me think, yes, I'm more and more important every single day.

00:10:55.940 Governor Newsom, every single day, I'm more important to the general politic of it all.

00:10:59.760 I mean, I will say like, going back to when I connected to The Daily Show, I used to watch

00:11:10.100 it in college.

00:11:11.180 I wasn't interested in politics.

00:11:13.660 I wasn't connected.

00:11:14.780 I wasn't locked in.

00:11:15.500 Quite frankly, I don't know how college students do it today.

00:11:18.180 Like I had the luxury of being naive about the world around me and just focusing on improv

00:11:23.700 comedy and drinking a 40 ounce and not throwing up.

00:11:27.200 Like that was like my journey as a 21 year old.

00:11:30.820 And now a 21 year old has to be so connected to the world around them.

00:11:35.020 But I watched John on The Daily Show and this guy was able to distill ideas quickly.

00:11:41.460 He wasn't the end of information, but he was a conduit to learning more about something.

00:11:46.920 And I trusted him.

00:11:48.440 I didn't think he was bullshitting me.

00:11:49.920 I think media has bias on it.

00:11:51.720 Every media has bias on it.

00:11:52.840 I want every person who watches television to understand what bias is there.

00:11:57.060 It doesn't mean there's not great people who are trying to tell you the truth as they

00:11:59.780 know it.

00:12:00.220 But like there's bias in the structures and the institutions and the places that tell

00:12:03.940 us the things that we have.

00:12:05.380 I think what a lot of people get out of The Daily Show, what I got out of The Daily Show

00:12:09.080 was like, I get Jon Stewart.

00:12:11.000 He's a comedian.

00:12:11.640 He's trying to tell us something funny. 0.99

00:12:13.500 And I think bullshit is his barometer. 0.98

00:12:15.740 And when he sees something that doesn't sit right with him, he goes at it. 0.99

00:12:18.820 And so you knew his bias.

00:12:20.360 I think a lot of people, when they watch our stuff, they watch my stuff, they know my bias.

00:12:25.260 I'm not an unbiased journalist trying to go out there and get what I want to do is find

00:12:30.240 something funny, find hypocrisy, find irony.

00:12:33.040 I care about things.

00:12:34.240 I'm progressive in nature.

00:12:35.800 And I do my research when I go out there.

00:12:38.520 And I think people can connect to me in knowing that about what I'm doing out in the field.

00:12:43.420 And quite frankly, when I'm doing the man on the street stuff in the field, like I have

00:12:48.220 the luxury of not being a journalist, in some ways, pretending just to be unbiased in their

00:12:53.320 conversations.

00:12:53.960 I can have a goal and a hypocrisy that I'm trying to put forward.

00:12:58.720 I can be relentless in the ways in which I go after somebody to try to find that hypocrisy

00:13:04.160 there.

00:13:04.680 And hopefully I can be also empathetic within that, that not only gets me something revealing

00:13:09.220 about somebody, but also has some sort of connection.

00:13:11.440 So for me, that's sort of how I see the work that we do there.

00:13:17.700 And, you know, the level of import, I think that will be on an audience to decide.

00:13:23.080 But where I always get from the satirists that I love, quite frankly, Jon Stewart, Stephen

00:13:27.700 Colbert, like the people I grew up with, the people I get to work with, like is that you

00:13:32.900 understand their bias, you understand their tenacity.

00:13:35.900 And because of that, they can cut to the quick.

00:13:39.460 And my favorite quote about humor, George Saunders, the author says, like, humor is what

00:13:44.440 happens when we're told the truth more swiftly and quickly than we're accustomed to.

00:13:48.800 And I think like at its best, like in those moments where you have a fire hose of Trump BS,

00:13:56.720 like that quick crystallized joke or revelation, like can articulate through the chaos.

00:14:06.220 Love it.

00:14:06.500 Were you, by the way, you look at Robin Williams, George Carlin, I mean, were there folks in

00:14:12.080 the political frame that you, I mean, particularly, I mean, you mentioned, obviously, Colbert,

00:14:16.320 and we'll get to that in a moment, and Jon himself, obviously.

00:14:19.220 But when you were growing up, when you were that 21-year-old hanging out in college, it

00:14:23.140 wasn't, I mean, were you attracted to political comedy?

00:14:26.460 Were you attracted to that sort of wit and witticism, that capacity to distill the essence

00:14:30.520 of a moment?

00:14:31.920 I loved, in college, I found Money Python, which was political in a different sense, I

00:14:37.420 think, absurdist political comedy.

00:14:39.500 And that drew me to the Second City in Chicago, which was political and social satire.

00:14:45.480 And so once I jumped into the world of like the Second City comedy, I learned about like

00:14:49.400 Nichols and May, who were doing such great political satire in the 50s.

00:14:53.340 And then Stephen Colbert, Steve Carell, Tina Fey, the people at Second City, like, even if

00:14:59.160 they weren't overtly political at the time, like the stuff, the work they were doing in

00:15:03.040 Chicago, that they would eventually go on and do it, SNL and other places, like, was all

00:15:09.000 very much commentary on the world around them, even if that's just social dynamics, extending

00:15:14.640 that into political stuff.

00:15:15.740 Like, that to me was like, oh, the real marrow of this comedy thing is like, use these tools

00:15:22.460 of absurdism and wit, but go at like articulating these cultural trends.

00:15:28.660 And so that was sort of always my world.

00:15:31.040 And then John comes in, and Colbert comes in, and I can see like them articulating a worldview

00:15:36.320 and speaking to what people were talking about.

00:15:39.260 And so I became more and more a political comedian as I became older.

00:15:44.640 And those people also started to flourish in ways that they hadn't when I was coming

00:15:48.580 up.

00:15:49.380 What is, I mean, obviously, we'd be remiss of speaking of coming up, we didn't bring up

00:15:54.300 the Colbert issue.

00:15:55.180 I mean, that kind of took people, I mean, it took me by complete surprise.

00:16:01.740 Also pissed me off.

00:16:03.240 I think it pissed a lot of people off.

00:16:04.520 And back to sort of how we started this, I mean, it was alarming beyond words.

00:16:08.800 I mean, because back to truth and trust, I mean, are they letting this guy go and eliminating

00:16:14.260 the show because it costs too much?

00:16:16.420 Or is it about something else?

00:16:18.520 And I know it puts you in a tough spot.

00:16:20.340 So I'm mindful of that, man.

00:16:21.480 I don't mean to put you on the spot, just to Comedy Central, et cetera.

00:16:24.340 But I mean, how did, I'm curious what, when you first heard that news, where were you?

00:16:29.060 How did you take it?

00:16:30.020 And what went through your mind?

00:16:31.260 What was sort of the initial reaction?

00:16:32.540 I was hosting The Daily Show that week and we had a big week and we had a great week

00:16:40.000 of shows.

00:16:40.600 And as I walked off on our last show on Thursday, I got the news that the Colbert show was ending.

00:16:46.720 And I have a lot of friends who work over there.

00:16:49.000 And Stephen is a family member of The Daily Show.

00:16:51.740 You know, he lives in lore over there and was a Daily Show member for so long.

00:16:58.840 And so we love Stephen.

00:17:00.300 And yeah, immediately it's a gut punch.

00:17:02.860 I think like his voice, I think is important right now at a time where it feels like a lot

00:17:08.080 of people are stepping down when they could be stepping up.

00:17:10.240 Stephen Colbert is somebody who's stepping up.

00:17:12.460 And to see an organization push back on that is alarming.

00:17:17.800 I know there are economic things at play here.

00:17:22.120 I think where I get frustrated beyond just not being able to see Stephen Colbert.

00:17:26.620 And quite frankly, I think Stephen Colbert is going to find ways to be part of the conversation.

00:17:30.000 No doubt about that.

00:17:30.700 So I think he's going to be, he's going to be around.

00:17:33.720 I know that for sure.

00:17:35.120 I think there became such a conversation around the economics of late night and the end of late

00:17:40.700 night.

00:17:41.020 And I think you can make arguments about like whether or not the advertising structure on

00:17:45.500 linear television works at 1130 slot.

00:17:47.860 Okay.

00:17:48.500 Have that business conversation.

00:17:50.200 But I think the effect of late night of a John Stewart, of a Stephen Colbert, of a Jimmy

00:17:55.580 Kimmel, like people are interacting with this content and this information more than

00:18:00.680 they ever have before.

00:18:02.060 I know with the daily show, our reach online and all the different spaces.

00:18:06.540 I do stuff at the desk.

00:18:07.580 I do stuff at the field.

00:18:08.700 I do specials that go out across the globe.

00:18:11.760 They're part of the conversation.

00:18:13.460 You have the president of the United States who's pissed at the things that are being said

00:18:17.140 on late night.

00:18:17.940 Like to me, that is not a reflection of an industry that has no connection.

00:18:23.520 In fact, it feels like a reflection of an industry that is part of the larger conversation.

00:18:27.200 And quite frankly, like a couple of days later, Stephen's first show back, like John

00:18:33.480 Colbert, John went on Colbert.

00:18:36.620 So did Oliver, Seth Meyers, Jimmy Fallon.

00:18:40.640 Like what gave me a sense of pride in this space where we are seeing institutions and

00:18:48.060 people who have a microphone, we're seeing them take a step back.

00:18:51.040 I was really proud to see these comedians who are in different networks, different places

00:18:56.120 and have different priorities, like coming together and standing behind Stephen, speaking

00:19:00.920 truth to power and supporting a guy that they think should have a voice wherever that may

00:19:06.260 be.

00:19:06.620 And so that to me was like a little sense of pride.

00:19:08.760 And also, I really wish they asked me to be a part of that.

00:19:11.660 It would have been nice.

00:19:13.300 I'm in town.

00:19:14.220 I could have written a small part like I, you know, there's there's an it could have

00:19:18.380 been slightly better.

00:19:19.420 But for the most part, I it made me feel a sense of pride for like the late night comedians

00:19:24.480 who are who are not going quietly into the night.

00:19:30.220 Hey, guys, it's AZ Fudd.

00:19:32.140 You may know me as a gold medalist.

00:19:34.140 You may know me as an NCAA national champion and recent most outstanding player.

00:19:38.740 You may even know me as a people's princess.

00:19:40.780 But now you're also going to know me as your favorite host every week on my new podcast

00:19:46.040 Fudd around and find out.

00:19:47.740 I'll give you an inside look at everything happening in my crazy life as I try to balance

00:19:51.860 it all from my travels across the globe to preparing for another run at the Natty with

00:19:55.840 my Yukon Huskies to just trying to make it to my midterms on time.

00:19:59.220 You'll get the inside scoop on everything.

00:20:01.220 I'll be talking to some special guests about pop culture, basketball, and what it's like

00:20:05.360 to be a professional athlete on and off the court.

00:20:08.060 You'll even get to have some fun with the Fudd family. 0.72

00:20:10.300 So if you follow me on social media or watch me on TV, you may think you know me.

00:20:15.400 But this show is the only place where you can really Fudd around and find out. 0.92

00:20:19.540 Listen to Fudd around and find out, a production of iHeart Women's Sports in partnership with

00:20:23.560 Unanimous Media on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:20:31.320 In 1920, a magazine article announced something incredible.

00:20:36.100 Two young girls had photographed real fairies.

00:20:40.420 But even more extraordinary than the magazine article's claim was the identity of the man

00:20:45.960 who wrote the article, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the man who wrote Sherlock Holmes.

00:20:52.700 Yes, the man who invented literature's most brilliant detective was fooled by two girls 1.00

00:20:59.240 into thinking fairies were real. 1.00

00:21:01.860 How did they do it?

00:21:03.340 And why does it seem like so many smart people keep falling for outlandish tricks?

00:21:09.380 These are the questions we explore in Hoax, a new podcast from me, Dana Schwartz, the host of Noble Blood.

00:21:16.760 And me, Lizzie Logan.

00:21:17.840 Every episode, we'll explore one of the most audacious and ambitious tricks in history,

00:21:23.440 from the fake Shakespeare's to balloon boys,

00:21:25.740 and try to answer the question of why we believe what we believe.

00:21:29.960 Listen to Hoax on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:21:37.440 The Stuff You Should Know guys have made their own summer playlists of their must-listen podcasts on movies.

00:21:43.080 It's me, Josh, and I'd like to welcome you to the Stuff You Should Know summer movie playlist.

00:21:48.100 What screams summer more than a nice, darkened, air-conditioned theater

00:21:51.460 and a great movie playing right in front of you.

00:21:53.900 Episodes on James Bond, special effects, stuntmen and women, disaster films,

00:21:58.080 even movies that change filmmaking, and many more.

00:22:00.800 Listen to the Stuff You Should Know summer movie playlist on the iHeartRadio app,

00:22:04.340 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:22:08.320 American history is full of wise people.

00:22:12.560 Well, women said something like, you know, 99.99% of war is diarrhea, 0.99

00:22:16.680 and 1% is glory.

00:22:18.960 Those founding fathers were gossipy AF, and they loved to cut each other down.

00:22:25.320 I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline,

00:22:28.580 the show where you send us your questions about American history,

00:22:32.400 and I find the answers, including the nuggets of wisdom our history has to offer.

00:22:37.960 Hamilton pauses, and then he says,

00:22:39.760 the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar.

00:22:43.440 And Jefferson writes in his diary,

00:22:45.520 this proves that Hamilton is for a dictator based on corruption.

00:22:50.160 My favorite line was what Neil Armstrong said,

00:22:53.040 it would have been harder to fake it than to do it.

00:22:56.040 Listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app,

00:22:59.840 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:23:03.400 What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison

00:23:13.000 or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth?

00:23:17.020 Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced.

00:23:21.120 He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you.

00:23:26.060 Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps,

00:23:29.060 are short-term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training.

00:23:35.500 These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life,

00:23:39.280 emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor, and rehabilitation programs.

00:23:45.880 Mark had one chance to complete this program

00:23:48.040 and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months.

00:23:52.340 The first night was so overwhelming, and you don't know who's next to you.

00:23:56.600 And we didn't know what to expect in the morning.

00:23:58.340 Nobody tells you anything.

00:23:59.960 Listen to Shock Incarceration on the iHeartRadio app,

00:24:03.020 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:24:09.720 It's interesting, just, you know, sort of breaking down the reach that

00:24:13.120 it punches way above its weight outside that time slot,

00:24:16.420 and all of these mediums and all this capacity to communicate.

00:24:20.640 And obviously, that's, you know, a big part of what you've been doing.

00:24:23.400 You're not just doing the correspondent work.

00:24:25.540 You're not just hosting on nights, the daily show.

00:24:28.460 But you obviously branched out as well.

00:24:30.540 You do these deeper sort of specials, but you're also doing a bunch of podcasts as well.

00:24:35.660 Is this, I mean, at the end of the day, is, I mean, no, it seems to me,

00:24:40.060 you haven't seen it on MSNBC.

00:24:41.520 Everybody that's on MSNBC seems to have a podcast.

00:24:44.220 Sean Hannity's always had his radio shows for years and years and years.

00:24:47.680 I mean, the multifaceted nature, no longer linear, as you say.

00:24:53.360 What's that landscape look like today?

00:24:55.980 And what do you sort of, where do you anticipate that going?

00:24:58.840 I mean, it's wild.

00:25:00.400 I mean, you're the governor of a state right now.

00:25:02.820 Yeah.

00:25:03.060 And you're, we're talking on your podcast.

00:25:05.160 Yeah, enough said.

00:25:06.680 Yeah.

00:25:07.360 It is a-

00:25:08.200 And I'm not talking to a late night, you know, host that otherwise I would have to go 0.98

00:25:12.640 on your damn show to have a conversation five, six years ago. 0.97

00:25:15.380 I mean, everything about it, right? 0.99

00:25:17.640 This is, this, this landscape is so strange.

00:25:20.200 You're like, oh, I guess I also have to have a podcast.

00:25:23.240 This is, yeah, this is, wow.

00:25:27.080 I do think from like an entertainment standpoint,

00:25:30.620 you have to be able to connect to people where they are.

00:25:33.260 And so like late night is a great space for that.

00:25:35.880 You know, what I'm proud of with The Daily Show is like we have evolved

00:25:38.660 and we've always been able to like, I can go into the field

00:25:42.180 and doing those pieces, connect with people in a different way.

00:25:45.380 There's a curiosity with people in their heads about like,

00:25:48.100 what do actually people think out in the middle of America?

00:25:50.560 And a lot of this content is made on the coasts.

00:25:54.120 And so for me to be able to go to, you know, Florida, to Pennsylvania, wherever,

00:25:58.180 and talk to somebody is compelling in a, in a way that isn't seen on other, other venues.

00:26:03.560 And then you have podcasts.

00:26:04.900 And then you have other spaces that, that really are the way people are starting to,

00:26:08.820 to get their information and have these conversations.

00:26:11.280 So it is important for, for comedians,

00:26:13.940 for politicians to meet people where they are, to expand what those conversations are.

00:26:18.960 Quite frankly, what I like about the podcast medium is that it is, it's elongated.

00:26:24.840 I'm, everything else is, is shortening.

00:26:27.620 And the attention span is shortening and the context shortens.

00:26:30.280 And that's where I get worried in the comedy space.

00:26:32.140 I'm sure as well in the political space, like once you shorten everything to just that clip,

00:26:37.980 you lose the context, you lose the ability to have any kind of depth of conversation

00:26:42.560 or awareness of an issue that has more than one easy digestible side.

00:26:48.300 And, and a format like a podcast, at least I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm happy to hear that people

00:26:54.100 listen to things for an hour or two hours and digest that.

00:26:57.480 And, and wherever that space exists, I think you have to kind of go to that and,

00:27:01.360 and have those conversations.

00:27:03.020 You speaking to go to, I mean, you, and, and, and your go-to has been, I mean, your brand,

00:27:07.540 it's just next level.

00:27:08.880 And I was, man, I, I, I realized, I think I watched every damn clip before when I was sort

00:27:14.180 of in anticipation of, of, of, of meeting with you for this podcast. 1.00

00:27:17.600 You've got shit to do. 1.00

00:27:18.120 Governor, you've got shit to do. 1.00

00:27:19.500 Aren't you trying to, aren't you trying to double gerrymander California right now? 1.00

00:27:23.480 We're going to get to, we're going to get to what we're doing in reaction to Texas.

00:27:29.320 I was going to say, like, instead of my videos, you could take more Republican votes away.

00:27:33.040 Is that what's happening?

00:27:33.900 What's going on in California?

00:27:35.140 We all have capacity to do more and be more.

00:27:37.960 And that's the spirit of what you've done. 0.99

00:27:39.600 You've re what, how many damn Trump rallies have you been to? 0.98

00:27:43.620 Have you counted or is it? 0.99

00:27:45.240 I've, I've, I've, I've lost count.

00:27:47.460 It has been, I mean, I started doing it in 2015.

00:27:50.500 What was it, by the way, what was the, and we'll get to the count in a second, but what

00:27:55.140 was the inspiration for that first Trump rally?

00:27:58.180 Oh boy.

00:27:58.820 I mean, I can't, it was, I mean, I think back in the time it was, can you believe it?

00:28:03.820 A reality star is running for president.

00:28:05.640 We should, we should get out there and talk to people before this goes away.

00:28:09.320 Before it goes away.

00:28:11.160 You know, what was compelling that first rally?

00:28:13.520 What stood out to me, like the first rally, which was very early in Trump announcing his

00:28:20.360 presidency, the conspiracy of the moment of the Trump moment was the Barack Obama birth

00:28:24.840 certificate, which, which feels like forever ago.

00:28:29.200 But at that time in American history to, to walk up with a camera and a microphone and

00:28:34.860 ask somebody if you think Barack Obama was born in America, nine out of 10 people would

00:28:42.040 say, of course he was born in America.

00:28:43.400 Even if they didn't believe that Barack Obama was born in America, culturally, that's not

00:28:49.320 only insensitive, it is racist.

00:28:51.100 And you're not going to say that in front of a camera, in front of a microphone.

00:28:55.420 It'd be, it'd be asinine to think that I would get somebody on camera saying, no, Barack 0.98

00:29:00.620 Obama is a secret Muslim. 1.00

00:29:01.960 Like that was the beginning. 0.96

00:29:02.880 And I remember talking to people about that.

00:29:05.060 And, and nobody would mention that a few months later, that number became at a, at a, at a

00:29:10.280 Magna rally, it became six, seven, and 10.

00:29:12.860 People were unafraid to, to call Barack Obama a secret Muslim.

00:29:17.340 You could just feel it.

00:29:18.200 I was like, oh my God, this was months ago.

00:29:20.020 This seemed like it was, it was an impossibility and not that racism doesn't exist in America,

00:29:25.400 but at least that there was an understanding to hide your racism or an understanding that

00:29:30.040 like that was a, that was an unpopular or an untoward opinion that maybe you hadn't vetted

00:29:34.980 enough in your mind to actually articulate in front of a stranger.

00:29:37.960 And yet the power of that man saying that over and over and over again, it just moved

00:29:44.660 that line in such a dramatic and swift fashion that I, that I've seen happen over and over

00:29:50.920 and over again to this day.

00:29:53.700 So that was it.

00:29:55.200 And I want to get to the communication because it's interesting.

00:29:57.420 I mean, use the frame over and over and over again.

00:29:59.520 This notion of repetition, uh, in terms of communication, uh, uh, frame, but 2015 sort

00:30:06.100 of launched that the birther issue, which created a lot of your content and what 90, 100 rallies

00:30:12.460 later, probably about that.

00:30:14.400 Yeah.

00:30:14.520 I think that's about 90, 90, 100.

00:30:15.980 Yeah.

00:30:16.900 What, I mean, what is, is it, what's been the through line for you?

00:30:20.740 What's been the most sort of, you know, as you've, you sort of reflect on the journey

00:30:24.280 of all of these interactions and anybody that hasn't taken the time to see these clips,

00:30:28.280 you really should, because I, you know, I use the word empathy, your ability to engage

00:30:32.600 people and create that space of trust.

00:30:34.720 And, and they may be embarrassed at the end of the day.

00:30:37.060 They may not even be embarrassed because they're situationally unaware of the contradictions,

00:30:40.880 which are fascinating.

00:30:41.980 And I don't know how much editing you do.

00:30:43.640 We can get to that in a moment or how many things we don't see.

00:30:46.180 Of course, uh, how many it tries, uh, that complete disasters.

00:30:50.360 You just go with the one, but it seems to me a lot of really good people and it breaks

00:30:57.300 my heart.

00:30:57.800 I, I, I, I, I feel more empathetic watching your interactions.

00:31:01.440 I feel, I feel really badly for people that they've been so lied to, so misled and they

00:31:08.140 feel, they feel, you can feel the emotion, the anger of being contradicted or themselves

00:31:13.580 contradicting themselves.

00:31:14.720 And when the facts are presented and the facts then be, can't, can't be true because my beliefs

00:31:19.240 are so strong.

00:31:20.000 Anyway, what has been your sort of throughput?

00:31:22.060 What have you learned on this over the course of these many, many years, these rallies?

00:31:26.360 Well, well, I, I think you are, you are spot on in that, you know, when, when a lot of people

00:31:32.560 often from the left come up and ask about MAGA rallies and many people from left never went

00:31:37.340 to a Trump rally.

00:31:38.120 And I highly recommend it.

00:31:39.540 What, what, what I think is so enjoyable and empathetic about those events is like, they're

00:31:44.800 like a parade coming into town.

00:31:46.320 And when I talk, like, even if you aren't on board, you go to the parade coming into town

00:31:51.360 and, and for the most part, a giant group of those folks are there because they want community

00:31:58.460 and they get it, they get it immediately.

00:32:00.380 And they want meaning.

00:32:01.560 You have the most powerful person on the fricking planet.

00:32:03.700 Who's like this, you can be a patriot.

00:32:07.020 You can do this thing.

00:32:08.080 Stand up.

00:32:08.500 That is such a, it's such an, it's an amazing promise to give to people.

00:32:11.960 And the desire to have meaning and community in your life is such a universal desire.

00:32:17.100 It's something that I'm constantly searching for.

00:32:20.040 And, and I, I feel it there and I like it.

00:32:23.180 I, I, I yearn for it.

00:32:24.660 I'm, I'm a Michigan football fan and I go to the big house and I see the exact same thing

00:32:29.440 happen.

00:32:30.100 Like it's a trick, which what we do, we buy a hat.

00:32:32.360 There's a reason you put on a hat.

00:32:33.880 I put on a Michigan hat.

00:32:35.020 They put on a MAGA hat, that red hat.

00:32:36.540 Because as soon as you put that on, you feel like you're a part of this team.

00:32:40.000 You see 10,000 other people who share something in common with you.

00:32:43.720 And, and that I see, and that I, I understand.

00:32:45.920 And I, I yearn for more of that in my own life.

00:32:49.020 It's the manipulation of that.

00:32:51.300 These people are vulnerable and open to this.

00:32:53.140 And, and the lies and the BS that is, that is fed to these folks.

00:32:58.640 I think when I have these conversations with people, more often than not, I'm confronting

00:33:02.760 them with information that is, that is new to them.

00:33:06.060 They have to articulate their opinion that they've shared with their friends over and

00:33:10.460 over again.

00:33:11.420 They have to articulate why for the first time in real time with me.

00:33:15.960 And I think that's what you start to realize.

00:33:18.120 It's like, oh, they haven't stress test this idea.

00:33:20.420 In the old days, you'd, you'd have your friends at the bar who don't believe what you believe.

00:33:24.060 And you'd have to tell them why you believe that wild thing.

00:33:26.640 What, what facts you have to prove the birtherism lie.

00:33:29.960 But now you're, you're six pals that you see, they're not going to press you on it.

00:33:35.080 The internet that you're on, isn't going to press you on it.

00:33:37.340 The Fox news that you're listening to is just reinforcing it.

00:33:40.340 And so when you go out into a field and you talk to me and I ask you something like that,

00:33:45.420 you assume this has already been stress tested and perfect.

00:33:48.260 You haven't even thought, thought through why you believe it so, so surely. 0.98

00:33:52.800 And then when this dumb lanky guy asks you, but why over and over again, you start to see 0.99

00:33:58.280 those, those cracks. 0.99

00:33:59.600 And for me, that is what is most revelatory is like, you see, you, you see the propaganda

00:34:06.180 and how it, how it seeps its way into people.

00:34:08.740 You see how identity is something that, uh, uh, forces people to cling onto things, even

00:34:14.920 though they may see the cracks in the logic.

00:34:17.580 Um, but you also see people haven't, haven't thought through the logistics of that.

00:34:22.040 They've just trusted.

00:34:23.080 And I think that's such a loving, uh, loving attribute for most people to have this trust

00:34:28.900 that this person who garnered so much fame and attention for his entire career came here

00:34:33.740 and told me it was true.

00:34:34.900 So why isn't it?

00:34:36.000 I think that's like on the left, you can kind of forget it's like what happened on January

00:34:41.560 six, like is crazy.

00:34:43.500 And I was there, but I was there, but when like the president tells you to do these things,

00:34:49.180 that person is so powerful.

00:34:50.780 And to believe in that person, like you understand where that comes from.

00:34:54.280 And it's so infuriating that he has the power and the ability to get those points across.

00:34:58.960 But I think the humanity in the MAGA supporters that I find is in just the trust and the faith

00:35:04.400 that this community that they've found, uh, couldn't possibly be steered wrong by somebody

00:35:10.320 who's accrued so much power and success.

00:35:12.980 What, you know, and I want to go back to January six, because I don't think people fully appreciate

00:35:19.040 you.

00:35:19.480 When you say you were there, you were working.

00:35:22.160 I was working governor working there on January six.

00:35:26.160 Recently pardoned Jordan Klepper.

00:35:28.280 Uh, yes.

00:35:29.080 He's joining us today on the podcast.

00:35:30.880 Uh, yes.

00:35:32.480 Um, you were just there.

00:35:34.320 It was a peaceful rally.

00:35:36.340 Peaceful.

00:35:36.900 It was just, it was just a, it was a traditional tourist visit.

00:35:39.700 It was.

00:35:40.340 Yeah.

00:35:40.960 Let me ask you though.

00:35:42.140 Did, I mean, you must've, I mean, you know, we saw the images of your cameraman kind of

00:35:47.600 getting tripped up this sort of intentional effort to become a victim.

00:35:51.300 The person that, that tripped him to say, oh, he ran into me to sort of create these conditions

00:35:56.160 sort of Erwellian nature of that. 0.98

00:35:57.900 But when you must've, you, there was, I imagine points where you started to realize, shit, this 0.98

00:36:04.100 thing's getting real, that this is getting a little out of control. 0.99

00:36:07.880 We need to get the hell out of here.

00:36:10.080 Yeah, it was, I mean, we were, we had been to the, um, million MAGA March a month before,

00:36:15.680 which was the stop, the steal March.

00:36:17.180 Uh, they said a million, that was their numbers, but there was 40,000 people there perhaps.

00:36:22.840 Um, and, and it was tense.

00:36:24.900 And there, there'd been a shift in like, you know, as, as contentious as some of the

00:36:29.100 interviews I can, I have, can get for the most part, people want to have a conversation

00:36:33.620 and they don't get testy post that Trump election loss.

00:36:37.700 People were testy and they're frustrated in the art and they were, uh, uh, argumentative.

00:36:42.280 Um, and, and we had a few situations where security had to step in.

00:36:45.720 And so for January 6th, we sort of knew people are going to be angry and Trump had been telling

00:36:50.960 people be there, we'll be wild.

00:36:53.940 When you show up, the, the mall is full of people wearing very aggressive t-shirts with

00:36:58.940 guns on them.

00:36:59.880 And when you talk to people, there was nothing but talk about revolution and what have you.

00:37:04.820 So we were very strategic about where we wanted to be.

00:37:07.700 And we also quite literally knew the game plan for the crowd was going to be listen to the

00:37:13.140 Trump speech and then move on to the Capitol and stop the, the vote. 0.51

00:37:17.540 So we positioned ourselves to be there in the front, uh, when the vote was taking place.

00:37:23.220 And we watched Proud Boys march by us and we saw everything happen.

00:37:26.840 I think from our own perspective, it was, it was intense.

00:37:31.680 We didn't think they would get inside.

00:37:33.300 At some point you're like, we think this is coming.

00:37:35.340 So I'm sure there's enough structures in the way to, to stop this from, from going as far

00:37:40.580 as some people would like it to be.

00:37:41.840 And when they broke down those first barriers, what was so fascinating was like the, the mix.

00:37:47.800 You had the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers, the people who were dressed for war. 0.51

00:37:51.640 They were there, they were upfront and they were, they were, they pushed through and they

00:37:56.400 were attacking.

00:37:57.120 And then you also had this second wave of, of MAGA supporters who've been pretending to be

00:38:03.120 dressed for war for years and, and dressed like tourists in the Capitol standing on top

00:38:11.500 of barriers, like echoing movements from war movies to get people up there.

00:38:15.920 And like that day to me was such, it's, it's sort of like this Trump administration in general.

00:38:21.260 Like it was so heartbreaking and sad and absurd at the same time.

00:38:25.580 I'm interviewing a man on a Segway going up, trying to overthrow the government and also

00:38:30.660 people with zip ties.

00:38:32.040 I interviewed people in who I would later find out brought weapons into the Capitol.

00:38:37.100 And you just, you've, there was real danger and threat and ludicrous absurdity at the same

00:38:42.380 time.

00:38:42.800 And flashbangs started going off.

00:38:45.400 People started breaking inside and we had a security detail with us that was like, it's

00:38:49.520 time to go.

00:38:50.160 We don't know what the situation is, but we can't control it.

00:38:53.280 And we got out of there, but it was, it was, it was heartbreaking and ridiculous and, and

00:38:58.660 everything all in, in, in one and, and in so many ways predictable.

00:39:04.120 And I think that's part of what is so got to start infuriating.

00:39:09.780 Hey guys, it's AZ Fudd.

00:39:11.880 You may know me as a gold medalist.

00:39:13.880 You may know me as an NCAA national champion and recent most outstanding player.

00:39:18.380 You may even know me as a people's princess, but now you're also going to know me as your

00:39:23.240 favorite host every week on my new podcast, foot around and find out.

00:39:27.540 I'll give you an inside look at everything happening in my crazy life.

00:39:30.740 As I try to balance it all from my travels across the globe to preparing for another run

00:39:34.920 at the natty with my Yukon Huskies to just trying to make it to my midterms on time.

00:39:39.040 You'll get the inside scoop on everything.

00:39:41.040 I'll be talking to some special guests about pop culture, basketball, and what it's like

00:39:45.180 to be a professional athlete on and off the court.

00:39:47.640 You'll even get to have some fun with the Fudd family. 0.72

00:39:50.420 So if you follow me on social media or watch me on TV, you may think you know me, but this

00:39:55.600 show is the only place where you can really Fudd around and find out. 0.78

00:39:59.360 Listen to Fudd Around and Find Out, a production of iHeart Women's Sports in partnership with

00:40:03.380 Unanimous Media on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:40:10.720 Have you ever looked at a piece of abstract art or music or poetry and thought,

00:40:14.740 that's just a bunch of pretentious nonsense?

00:40:16.560 Well, that's exactly what two bored Australian soldiers set out to prove during World War II

00:40:22.040 when they pulled off what was either a bold literary hoax or a grand poetic experiment,

00:40:27.280 publishing over a dozen intentionally bad but highly acclaimed works of expressionist poetry

00:40:32.380 under the name Earn Malley in an incident that caused a media firestorm and even a criminal trial.

00:40:38.960 The Earn Malley episode made fools of believers and critics alike and still fascinates poetry lovers

00:40:44.300 to this day. We break down the truth, the lies, and the poetry in between on Hoax,

00:40:49.180 a new podcast hosted by me, Lizzie Logan, and me, Dana Schwartz. Every episode, Hoax explores an

00:40:55.620 audacious fraud or ruse from history, from forged artworks to the original fake news, to try and

00:41:01.780 answer why we believe. Listen to Hoax on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:41:08.100 The Stuff You Should Know guys have made their own summer playlist of their must-listen podcasts on

00:41:15.260 movies. It's me, Josh, and I'd like to welcome you to the Stuff You Should Know summer movie

00:41:19.740 playlist. What screams summer more than a nice, darkened, air-conditioned theater and a great

00:41:24.720 movie playing right in front of you. Episodes on James Bond, special effects, stuntmen and women,

00:41:29.680 disaster films, even movies that change filmmaking, and many more. Listen to the Stuff You Should Know

00:41:34.520 summer movie playlist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:41:40.800 American history is full of wise people. What women said something like, you know,

00:41:46.780 99.99% of war is diarrhea and 1% is gory. Those founding fathers were gossipy AF, and they love to

00:41:56.540 cut each other down. I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, the show where you send us

00:42:02.540 your questions about American history, and I find the answers, including the nuggets of wisdom our

00:42:08.820 history has to offer. Hamilton pauses, and then he says, the greatest man that ever lived was Julius

00:42:14.780 Caesar. And Jefferson writes in his diary, this proves that Hamilton is for a dictator based on

00:42:21.760 corruption. My favorite line was what Neil Armstrong said, it would have been harder to fake it than to do

00:42:28.340 it. Listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

00:42:34.240 you get your podcasts.

00:42:40.020 What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison

00:42:45.500 or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo,

00:42:51.400 this was the choice he faced.

00:42:53.140 He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you.

00:42:58.580 Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short-term, highly regimented correctional

00:43:04.480 programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison

00:43:11.100 life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor, and rehabilitation programs.

00:43:17.840 Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six

00:43:24.240 months. The first night was so overwhelming, and you don't know who's next to you. And we didn't know

00:43:29.860 what to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything. Listen to Shock Incarceration on the

00:43:34.280 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:43:38.360 Was it predictable to you that Trump would find his way back? I mean, at that moment,

00:43:47.040 you must thought, this is it. This is over. Over and out. I mean, he's toast.

00:43:52.040 Yeah. I mean, this news cycle, it eats its own tail so quickly. But watching Republican

00:44:00.520 Congress folks stand up and talk about January 6th, the day after, talking about Lindsey Graham

00:44:07.940 articulate being done, like, go back and watch those. I did recently, and it was like, wow,

00:44:14.720 the certainty, the bipartisan nature of seeing chaos and a reality in front of our own eyes

00:44:21.600 and calling it out. I mean, it's the most photographed crime in human history.

00:44:26.680 If we as Americans can't watch that and say, we don't support this, this is the line. And it felt

00:44:33.960 like there was a moment where that was the narrative, and that was discussed. And so, yes,

00:44:39.660 I thought that was the end of the Trump chapter, at least in terms of being president, that this MAGA

00:44:45.380 movement is still looking for a leader, and that won't die out. I didn't think it would end quite that

00:44:50.220 quick. But the fact that it has resurfaced like this, and he's found his way back into office,

00:44:55.600 I don't think I fully saw it coming. Although, as I started to go back on the trail,

00:45:00.320 the numbers seemed lower, but it didn't seem like it was impossible for it to happen again.

00:45:05.100 Finding that meaning and community once again. I mean, you also had to find your way back. I think

00:45:10.320 the interesting thing about you is, it's one thing to go back during COVID, you got a mask on,

00:45:14.680 there's some anonymity, people know you, but don't really know you. I mean, how in the hell do you show 0.86

00:45:20.300 up at a Trump rally nowadays? I mean, you're too well known, sorry, my friend, you have secure,

00:45:27.300 I mean, now that security is not just there for a moment, like January 6. I mean, and you've got,

00:45:32.680 you've got infamous examples of people that will see you, call you out, call you fake news, the brick

00:45:37.620 suit man, we'll get to him in a minute. Among others, there's sort of these infamous interactions

00:45:41.960 that you've had over the years. But how is that? I mean, how is, how is that journey now,

00:45:45.940 in terms of reconnect, or you get to know all these people, and they love you? Like,

00:45:49.660 hey, Jordan, good to see you, buddy. I have friends that I see at these rallies now. I know

00:45:55.120 all of the t-shirt salesmen, we're pals, we see each other every week. I do have multiple friends

00:46:02.260 who I've talked to over the years that it's nice to like reconnect with and see how their thoughts

00:46:07.240 have changed, or if they haven't. And it is remarkable. Like sometimes people will seek out

00:46:12.860 to talk to me, sometimes people will say no way. I think the thing that was both eye opening

00:46:17.680 and disheartening was I went to CPAC a couple years ago, and assumed, assumed going to CPAC

00:46:25.240 that no one would want to talk to me. That that's it's sort of ridiculous that we got credentials

00:46:29.800 to be there, but we'll see who would want to talk to me. I was a rock star at CPAC. And,

00:46:35.880 and it, and for two reasons, like there was a line of young Republican Congress hopefuls

00:46:43.700 who wanted to talk to me, were desperate to talk to me. And, and literally you saw it. I saw Marjorie

00:46:50.040 Taylor Greene walk through the hall with 10 press behind her. And you see these young Congress folks,

00:46:56.500 these hopefuls from the middle of Indiana, who are watching her and they're like, oh my god,

00:47:00.680 that's the attention. What do I need to do? What do I need to do? Let me talk to this guy.

00:47:04.160 Let me talk to this guy. And so there was, there was the line literally handing my producer cards.

00:47:09.800 Please talk to me. I would love to talk to you. You're just like, oh, these are, and I talked to

00:47:13.500 a few people. These are moderate, good, young, nice people running for office, but you see their head

00:47:21.280 shifting where they're like, oh, that's not the game, the game. I have to be big. I have to court a

00:47:25.940 fight with this guy. I got to own the libs. I have to do this. And then secondarily, I ran into MAGA

00:47:31.140 fans at CPAC, specifically like this 18 or 19 year old boy who is a Trump super fan. And he showed

00:47:38.800 me pictures in his home of Trump cutouts and posters, pictures with Trump. He loved, his whole

00:47:44.800 identity was Donald Trump. And he sought me out. He was like, I want to talk to you. I want to get

00:47:48.140 pictures. I asked a point, Blake, I was like, you know who I am. You know what I want to talk about.

00:47:53.920 You know my point of view. Why do you want to talk to me? And he's like, you're part of it. You're part

00:47:59.320 of the world. You're one of the bad guys. Get a picture with me. And it's, I'm the heel. Like in the 0.71

00:48:04.820 UFC world, these guys, they don't like me, but I'm the bad guy to them in this world. So they want a

00:48:11.580 picture with it. And it's a game and it's a performance. So collect all the characters, try to get

00:48:18.260 their autographs. It's, it's just a game to be played. Jordan, you have no idea how much that

00:48:23.340 resonates with me and how much I appreciate that. I mean, I have so many similar experiences

00:48:27.420 along those lines. It's so what, I mean, you know, I, well, let me go back. Cause I,

00:48:33.600 people are like, what the hell is he talking about with this brick suit, man? But yes, I think it goes

00:48:37.460 to the, goes to the essence of what you just described as well, which is your ability to connect

00:48:42.260 with the other side and the challenges that we all have connecting with people that we vehemently

00:48:46.560 disagree with in terms of worldview and points of view. Just, you know, so many people just,

00:48:50.760 I don't understand how hot, what's going on in my, it just makes no sense, et cetera.

00:48:56.180 And you had an interesting infamous, and I don't want to belabor it because it's, it's well

00:49:00.580 chronical, but you had like this three and a half hour conversation with someone that was going after

00:49:05.640 you at one of the Trump rallies. And the two of you just happened to get stuck at an airport. I think

00:49:11.540 in Green Bay, Wisconsin, if my memory serves. And you guys are stuck together waiting for a damn 0.99

00:49:15.940 plane, just the luck, you know, what are the chances of this? And so you had nothing else to 0.99

00:49:20.100 do. So you ended up spending all that time bullshitting back and forth. What happened?

00:49:25.480 Yeah. It's, we, we got to know each other as humans and not as, uh, performers in front of a

00:49:32.220 medium. And it was, it was a remarkable day. Like, like you said, he spent, um, the entire shoot day

00:49:40.740 heckling our camera crew. And he's sort of an infamous MAGA celebrity that Trump brings on

00:49:46.340 stage. Cause he's dressed like the border wall. And when I see him at the airport, the last thing

00:49:50.960 I wanted to do was spend three and a half hours talking and fighting with this guy over politics.

00:49:56.120 But, but it was remarkable in that. Like, I, I joke that we're away from our mediums, but it is true.

00:50:02.840 Like our guards were down. Like he's, he's not performing for a camera and playing a part of the

00:50:08.320 brick suit guy. That doesn't mean that he's not, he doesn't believe many of the things that he talks

00:50:13.080 about. I don't think he's insincere in that, but I think he's a larger version of certainty that exists

00:50:18.560 in his, his heart as, as am I, as a person who was in front of the camera as well. And, and with no

00:50:24.900 cameras, no microphones, when we got past, like, is this person recording something to try to make

00:50:29.980 the other person look bad? Like, then we just started talking about, about his certainties around

00:50:35.340 Trump. I think what was surprising to me, like he talked about like, again, he is, he's in some

00:50:40.980 ways the manifestation of like a Trump supporter, but he would articulate to me was that he wears

00:50:45.860 the brick suit because he sees it as a meme and memes are attention getting. And he wants the

00:50:52.240 attention of a camera and he wants to articulate that MAGA vision because he sees himself as more

00:50:56.740 articulate in the ways of Trump than other people. And I don't think he's wrong. I think that's

00:51:01.140 probably a savvy move. But as we talked beyond the cameras, like he talked about how he didn't

00:51:07.900 think Trump won the last election, which is bonkers not to believe the big lie. If you are the big

00:51:12.920 face, they told me he wished he'd move on. He had political disagreements with them. He had more of a

00:51:18.040 libertarian streak and loved to be an online troll. That seemed to be most of his personality. And he

00:51:23.320 would be open about that. Like he loved to go onto Reddit boards, stir shit up and, and get people 0.90

00:51:28.940 upset. That's sort of what he thought was funny and comedic. And so like, I, I got it. It wasn't 0.97

00:51:34.080 my thing. He was way into history. He was the smart guy. This is the thing that I always think

00:51:38.040 about when, when progressive people, when Democrats come up to me and they want to say like, Oh, all

00:51:42.940 those crazy people you talk to, like I talked to people who believe crazy things and you need to

00:51:48.400 understand those are separate things. And brick suit guy, I don't agree with the things he talks

00:51:53.820 about, but the man who has a handlebar mustache and five bespoke brick suits that he goes up on 0.99

00:51:59.460 stage and talks about, you'd like to think he's an idiot and he's not, he's smart. He's smart. And 1.00

00:52:05.500 we, we talked, we had good conversations. We, we found if not common ground, like we softened on some

00:52:12.580 of the certainties that we had around issues that we were less aware of than perhaps we would perform

00:52:17.260 in front of a camera. Um, and I say this, the moment that sticks with me is like, we got on the train,

00:52:22.320 the plane still talking. And, uh, I was in an exit row and was asked if I wanted to took on the

00:52:29.580 responsibilities of being in an exit row. And I took to him and I mischievously say, I hope this

00:52:34.960 freaks you the fuck out, man. And, and he laughs and, and in retrospective like that, that was, that's 0.81

00:52:43.300 it. Every conversation I have with so many other people, you don't get to the point where you're

00:52:48.700 actually laughing together because your identity is at stake because any challenge to your certainty,

00:52:53.860 any challenge to a thing you have said is seen as like an existential attack on who you are.

00:52:59.340 But I, I knew who this guy was. I spent three and a half hours with him. We connected on some stuff.

00:53:05.340 And so when I poked him, he didn't crumble, didn't, didn't just explode into just dust. He laughed and I

00:53:13.540 laughed back and I'm like, Oh, that's, that still exists. That exists in America. We're not as,

00:53:18.400 as polarized as, as, as some people would say that the conversation pulls us that way. And it looks

00:53:23.280 that way. But if you could spend three and a half hours with somebody in a green Bay airport,

00:53:27.780 you're going to at least, at least get to the point where you, you believe the same premise of

00:53:32.980 the joke. And that to me speaks to not separate realities, but at least a generalized understanding.

00:53:38.780 No, thank you for sharing that story. I think it's incredibly important. And it's what we need to

00:53:44.580 hear right now, because I mean, I keep saying a divorce is not an option. And at the end of the

00:53:51.200 day, we've got to live together across our differences and, and it's exhausting. I mean,

00:53:55.200 it is this zero sum thinking, this notion, you know that, you know, everybody's just at each other

00:54:00.940 24 seven. You feel like, you know, you're waking up and, you know, people are trying to put a crowbar

00:54:06.300 in the spokes, the wheels of your front tire and trip you up. And so this notion that we, you know,

00:54:11.660 are all better off, we're all better off. This notion that we all want to be loved and need to be

00:54:15.560 loved is so foundational. But at the same time, I imagine for you, it's still a struggle in terms of

00:54:21.600 changing minds, because I've seen so many clips with you where you've presented something, you know,

00:54:27.720 just a perfect example. You had a woman who was very upset that notion that a woman, I think

00:54:33.660 Kamala Harris at the time, it may have been Hillary, but I think it was Kamala, was going 1.00

00:54:38.000 to be president because she said, as a woman, she says too many hormones, she's going to get us into 1.00

00:54:42.340 a war. And your immediate retort is, well, haven't all the wars been started by men? And she paused

00:54:49.400 and still went on. I mean, you didn't change her mind. And this notion of changing minds,

00:54:55.200 changing hearts, changing behaviors. I imagine that's been a struggle for you with all of these

00:55:01.100 interactions. Yeah, it is. I mean, I will say, the intention of these interactions is not to change.

00:55:08.900 The intention is like, again, my bias is towards comedy, finding hypocrisy and irony. And more often

00:55:16.740 than not, it's like, I'm curious as to how far the propaganda has spread and how deep it is inside

00:55:22.540 these people's mindsets. And so I don't find people's minds being changed, being confronted with

00:55:28.900 information. And frankly, across the board in my personal life as well. It's like, oh, this idea

00:55:34.760 that, oh, if I have the information and give this person, that mind will get changed. I think one of my

00:55:41.080 favorite interactions was, I was talking to a woman during Trump's first impeachment, and she was talking

00:55:47.940 about how Trump is innocent. And this was the time when he was blocking testimony from John Bolton, amongst

00:55:54.220 other people's. And I said, well, if he was innocent, he wouldn't be blocking people from

00:55:58.920 testifying. She's like, exactly. He's innocent. He wants everybody to speak. He wants everybody to

00:56:02.560 testify. And I was like, well, so if he was blocking people, that would be like proof of his guilt. She

00:56:06.660 was like, of course, of course, but he's not doing that. And I say, well, he is doing that. And she takes

00:56:12.160 this really long beat and she thinks about it. She really hears me. And then she goes, I don't care.

00:56:17.000 Yeah. And, and that's, I was like, thank you. Because more often than not, the conversations

00:56:22.380 that I have out there, the politics is the pretense. It's the fun. It's the parrying that

00:56:27.300 people have. This is identity for so many people. And they will jump into the abortion debate. And

00:56:32.740 some people believe it vehemently, but more often than not, it's just the, it's the tools you use to,

00:56:38.020 to play the identity. And so, so when it comes to like changing people's minds, changing people's

00:56:43.160 identity is hard. Once you put on that hat, people see you in that hat. And it's not just that you

00:56:48.200 can take the hat off because your whole community saw you as the guy with that hat. And that's a

00:56:53.180 hard thing. It's beyond just buying it. It's how you are perceived. It's how now your families see

00:56:58.620 you. It's, I think about like families who have now lived in this, this Trump era for 12 years.

00:57:04.720 You've lost friendships, family members based on it. Like to change your mind is a big, big,

00:57:10.660 big ask. And so I don't, I don't think it, I don't, I don't think it happens with just facts,

00:57:16.280 but I do think like, to me, what I'm always on and on about is the certainty that we have that I

00:57:24.240 think is so unbecoming. And it is, it is, it is a necessary trait in the world of social media and

00:57:31.520 online engagement to be the most certain loudest version of yourself. But, but the only way that I've

00:57:37.940 seen any kind of movement and change or like with the brick suit guy, like a moment or a space for

00:57:45.440 that, it comes with, with uncertainty that I bring to the table and, and then he can match it. And so

00:57:52.780 for all of my well-meaning, thoughtful, progressive folks who are like, if I just get the right

00:57:58.280 information and article to give to my cousin, it will be fine. I'm like, I don't think it's going to

00:58:03.660 do it. Give it a shot. But to me, the only softening I've seen is when you enter the conversation

00:58:10.740 with an, I don't know, or something you are uncertain about, which is a scary place. The

00:58:16.960 internet doesn't want you to start that way. But, but like that invitation has been the only way to

00:58:22.840 get somebody else to at least like, like at least bring the barricades down a bit to let some new light

00:58:29.420 in and see. Hey guys, it's AZ Fudd. You may know me as a gold medalist. You may know me as an NCAA

00:58:38.860 national champion and recent most outstanding player. You may even know me as a people's princess,

00:58:44.340 but now you're also going to know me as your favorite host. Every week on my new podcast,

00:58:49.440 Fudd Around and Find Out, I'll give you an inside look at everything happening in my crazy life as I

00:58:54.480 try to balance it all. From my travels across the globe to preparing for another run at the Natty with

00:58:59.000 my UConn Huskies to just try to make it to my midterms on time, you'll get the inside scoop

00:59:03.380 on everything. I'll be talking to some special guests about pop culture, basketball, and what

00:59:08.120 it's like to be a professional athlete on and off the court. You'll even get to have some fun with

00:59:12.740 the Fudd family. So if you follow me on social media or watch me on TV, you may think you know me,

00:59:18.560 but this show is the only place where you can really Fudd Around and Find Out. Listen to Fudd Around and Find

00:59:23.920 Out, a production of iHeart Women's Sports in partnership with Unanimous Media on the iHeartRadio app,

00:59:28.820 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:59:34.060 Have you ever looked at a piece of abstract art or music or poetry and thought,

00:59:38.080 that's just a bunch of pretentious nonsense? Well, that's exactly what two bored Australian 1.00

00:59:42.980 soldiers set out to prove during World War II, when they pulled off what was either a bold literary

00:59:48.080 hoax or a grand poetic experiment, publishing over a dozen intentionally bad but highly acclaimed

00:59:54.040 works of expressionist poetry under the name Earn Malley in an incident that caused a media firestorm

01:00:00.140 and even a criminal trial. The Earn Malley episode made fools of believers and critics alike and still

01:00:06.280 fascinates poetry lovers to this day. We break down the truth, the lies, and the poetry in between on

01:00:12.040 Hoax, a new podcast hosted by me, Lizzie Logan, and me, Dana Schwartz. Every episode, Hoax explores an audacious

01:00:19.540 fraud or ruse from history, from forged artworks to the original fake news, to try and answer why we believe.

01:00:27.180 Listen to Hoax on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:00:31.460 The Stuff You Should Know guys have made their own summer playlists of their must-listen podcasts on movies.

01:00:39.120 It's me, Josh, and I'd like to welcome you to the Stuff You Should Know summer movie playlist.

01:00:43.880 What screams summer more than a nice, darkened, air-conditioned theater and a great movie playing right in front of you.

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01:01:04.100 American history is full of wise people.

01:01:08.720 What women said something like, you know, 99.99% of war is diarrhea and 1% is gory.

01:01:14.960 Those founding fathers were gossipy AF, and they loved to cut each other down.

01:01:20.820 I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, the show where you send us your questions about American history, and I find the answers, including the nuggets of wisdom our history has to offer.

01:01:33.740 Hamilton pauses, and then he says, the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar.

01:01:39.280 And Jefferson writes in his diary, this proves that Hamilton is for a dictator based on corruption.

01:01:45.660 My favorite line was what Neil Armstrong said, it would have been harder to fake it than to do it.

01:01:52.160 Listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:02:03.120 A foot washed up a shoe with some bones in it.

01:02:07.000 They had no idea who it was.

01:02:08.680 Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable.

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01:02:36.120 He never thought he was going to get caught.

01:02:38.300 And I just looked at my computer screen.

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01:02:41.740 On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors.

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01:03:01.500 I love the words you're using.

01:03:07.060 You talk about meaning.

01:03:08.080 You talk about community and the power of identity and how you shake that identity.

01:03:13.100 But with humility and grace.

01:03:14.960 And I think it begs the question, hardly, you know, the words you would use typically with this topic.

01:03:21.180 But the Epstein issue.

01:03:22.680 I mean, that invites what to you in this whole conversation.

01:03:27.800 What does Epstein mean in relationship to everything you just said?

01:03:31.360 Well, it's fascinating to watch it play out on the right because it does feel like it feels like a promise broken right now.

01:03:41.120 It's Epstein and this idea of this conspiracy that would come out was something I heard on the trail for the last eight years.

01:03:48.940 And I do think, to me, like, we talked a little bit about this and some off-camera about, like, about the difficulty of governing.

01:03:59.720 And I think so many people who go to a Trump rally and are there just for the show and the community, I think part of it's because there's a disconnect between what they see governing as and what politics is.

01:04:15.580 Like, I think, like, they feel disconnected from what government can do for them.

01:04:20.020 And so, therefore, they might as well have fun with the game of the politics.

01:04:22.820 And Trump is like, well, let me just play the politics part.

01:04:25.400 And when he gets into the governing part, what I'm curious about right now is like, well, there's a connection now.

01:04:30.680 Now this person actually has the power that you have given them.

01:04:33.260 Do you like this big, beautiful bill?

01:04:34.920 Do you like your health care options right now?

01:04:37.040 Do you like what's happening at the border?

01:04:39.040 Do you like the information that you're getting or not getting about Jeffrey Epstein?

01:04:42.660 But Trump has done a good job of living in the chasm between politics and governing.

01:04:48.580 And so I do think there is a real disconnect with so many people who voted for Trump, not with a true idea that they thought he would change things, but that he was the most interesting version to be in a system that they thought could never change.

01:05:00.960 So I think we're in that right now.

01:05:02.740 And the Epstein thing cracks it a bit, because if you've really bought into this conspiratorial mindset, which a lot of people have, and that these people can deliver this truth to you, it's hard not to see the writing that is on the wall.

01:05:20.580 Occam's razor is super sharp here about why some of this information might be withheld, why you're not getting all the things you were promised.

01:05:28.940 And I think we're going to see all the shucking and jiving from the Trump administration trying to get you to focus on something else.

01:05:34.960 But it is an inherent lie towards the Trump brand that I don't know what the long-term effects of it will be, but I think his success will be in the fact that if he's created a populace that is so pessimistic about the effect of the government, then he may win out in this.

01:05:56.960 But if there's actually some faith left in that these people can do good for you, he's going to have a hard time writing that circle.

01:06:05.300 And before we close, Duran, I'm interested in, I want to connect back to that 18, 19-year-old guy that, you know, just his identity, speaking of identity, was all attached to Trump.

01:06:16.180 But also to you, in some respects, that's all part of this sort of dialectic and this game as you describe it.

01:06:24.500 And everyone's relationship to one another, the good versus the bad, you know, the truth, all that.

01:06:30.780 What, you know, if you've seen just through your journey, you look at young folks and you've done a lot on masculinity.

01:06:39.640 You've talked about, you know, we talk so much about telling boys what not to be.

01:06:44.760 We don't talk about what they should be.

01:06:46.920 And there's the Andrew Tates of the world that infamously sort of fill that void.

01:06:51.220 And we've seen that weaponized with Trump, et cetera.

01:06:53.840 And you see that 18, 19-year-old, you see your own son.

01:06:58.720 Where are we in terms of the generational shift on all of this?

01:07:02.880 Even in the distinction you just made around campaigning versus governing and the relationship to Epstein and that.

01:07:09.120 But is there, do you see any generational changes underway?

01:07:14.000 Do you see any hope in that distinction, young versus old, new versus, you know, what's?

01:07:21.040 I mean, I do, I think your podcast with Richard Reeves, I thought was great.

01:07:26.460 And I think there's a lot of people talking really in depth about this crisis of masculinity that's happening right now,

01:07:32.060 which I'm seeing echoed in all of the places that I go to.

01:07:36.580 This, I did a special recently that was looking at sort of the new MAGA movement.

01:07:41.860 And where I found hope was sort of in a surprising place.

01:07:45.980 I went to a Turning Points event.

01:07:47.980 I went to a UFC event.

01:07:49.080 And I think I was, in my mind, I think especially at like the Turning Points Texas A&M event,

01:07:58.560 I was expecting maybe the most extreme of the MAGA movement to be echoed in these 18-year-olds.

01:08:04.440 And when I went down there and talked to the students, I think what I was surprised by, they were conservative.

01:08:13.100 Most of them also very, very religious.

01:08:14.920 But when I talked to them about like topics, they didn't care about the cultural war stuff.

01:08:21.840 Now, it doesn't mean Charlie Kirk, who is, you know, 100 feet away, who I know you've spoken to as well,

01:08:27.040 like he will get on that culture war stuff and he wants to talk about that stuff.

01:08:30.880 And it doesn't mean that these students won't hear that and won't glom onto it.

01:08:35.320 But it wasn't top of mind for folks.

01:08:37.900 And I naively assumed a cruelty that did not exist in the 18-year-olds that I talked to.

01:08:44.420 I thought when we talked about deportations that they would chomp on the bit.

01:08:48.760 I thought when we talked about trans athletes or LGBTQ rights that like a wall would go up or cruelty would emerge.

01:08:56.840 And frankly, it didn't happen.

01:08:59.240 The people I talked to were interested in jobs.

01:09:01.640 They were interested in the country, patriotic, talking about like defense, security.

01:09:09.480 But they didn't care about LGBTQ issues as a way to like to fight over or to be upset about.

01:09:18.820 They wanted people to have equal rights and protections.

01:09:22.520 And I think it became aware to me, I was like, I'm projecting a cruelty that exists within this movement,

01:09:27.600 that I think it does exist.

01:09:28.560 I think the Trump administration thrives on the cruelty and that as a tool to create obedience.

01:09:38.100 But when I talked to the youth, they are looking for attention and also meaning and community.

01:09:44.840 And I saw turning points as an interesting example of like, oh, they're like, oh, what is this thing over here?

01:09:50.080 This thing that's popular online?

01:09:51.720 Oh, online, the place that everybody either becomes an influencer or doesn't.

01:09:57.240 Like, that's the sphere I want to be a part of.

01:09:59.200 Let me go pay attention to that.

01:10:01.460 They weren't interested in the cruelty of that message.

01:10:03.980 But they were interested in the performance of that message.

01:10:06.220 They were interested in the popularity of that message.

01:10:08.500 But at their core, these were nice kids who are still forming their own worldview in a kind space.

01:10:15.580 And so when I think of that younger generation, I think there is a kindness there that is different than the hardened, older MAGA generation that we see right now.

01:10:28.200 And I hope there is space for them to find what they care about and do good in this world and not sort of be manipulated by these older generations who want nothing more than to weaponize these points of view and these malleable minds.

01:10:42.900 Jordan, two final questions.

01:10:45.760 I want to go back as we began on redistricting for a different reason, perhaps, and some may think.

01:10:51.440 But I want to pick up just what you said.

01:10:53.400 You know, if someone's listening to this, they're saying, OK, we're now in sort of the magosphere.

01:10:57.980 We're talking about the manosphere.

01:10:59.980 We're in that zeitgeist.

01:11:01.060 But without the situational awareness that a lot of this sort of ideological identity politics, this sort of notion of community and meaning also finds its way on the left as well, not denying that.

01:11:14.460 What, you know, in terms of that, to the extent that does exist and one has to stipulate it does.

01:11:19.980 What is the what have you learned about MAGA?

01:11:24.260 We talked about repetition.

01:11:26.000 We talked about that sense of a broader sense of community, what Trump has provided people in that space.

01:11:32.900 Any prescription for Democrats?

01:11:36.020 Any prescription for my party that's struggling?

01:11:38.680 I mean, you know, The Wall Street Journal, lowest.

01:11:41.700 You know, there's no doubt you look at the polling on the Democratic Party.

01:11:45.380 Some don't like it referred to as toxic, but it's toxic for a lot of people.

01:11:50.260 People sort of immediately are moving away from it.

01:11:53.120 What's your over under in terms of what we can do differently or better?

01:11:57.900 Are there lessons that we can learn from the MAGA movement there, I say or suggest, from the experiences you've had in those 100 rallies, 90 to 100 rallies with humility and grace that I think a party that is out of power needs?

01:12:13.020 Yeah, I mean, I think there's there's like there's functional things, which is like meeting people where they are.

01:12:18.580 And I think like literally we we joke about this, but it is it is podcast, the Internet, like understand the conversations where you need to have those conversations.

01:12:26.120 I think that's like that's that's baseline.

01:12:28.580 But a big part of what I see a younger generation connecting to is authenticity.

01:12:35.180 And and it feels it took me a while to see what was authentic about Donald Trump in so many ways, a very inauthentic human being who's constantly projecting things that are untrue.

01:12:46.900 But the feeling of Donald Trump is is is one that I think is received as authentic for so many people there.

01:12:53.960 He feels like if not a truth teller, somebody who says it like it is, who's not beholden to other things.

01:12:59.460 Again, the veracity of that I don't stand for, but I do see people like, oh, they don't see him as a politician where they connect with him is on an authentic space.

01:13:09.280 And I do when I hear the Democratic Party to talk about, you know, who is who are the next faces and how do we do this?

01:13:16.240 And I know you're a part of that conversation.

01:13:18.640 The AOCs are part of the conversation in New York.

01:13:21.580 Mamdani is such an interesting part of the conversation right now where where that on a local level was really fascinating to watch.

01:13:29.060 Like all the prognosticators said, like, oh, this isn't how New York works.

01:13:33.000 This is how politics works.

01:13:34.240 But then there's this guy who's like, ah, I want to talk about stuff that I think is important, which is like jobs and people are hurting jobs.

01:13:41.200 People are hurting.

01:13:42.280 How can we give them something to look forward to?

01:13:44.360 And I know how to do that in a way that doesn't feel political.

01:13:47.320 It feels authentic.

01:13:49.380 And and that broke through in a way that I think a lot of New Yorkers are like, huh, everybody told us this wouldn't break through.

01:13:54.480 I think this next wave of Democratic leadership and this party needs to needs to one know people, people want action and they want people authentically want to make change.

01:14:07.100 I don't know how like I do think what what the Republican Party has done so well is create a party of like pointing at them and they are the problems.

01:14:14.780 And I think you're seeing now, like, what can they solve in governing?

01:14:17.980 Governing is hard.

01:14:18.960 I don't need to tell you that.

01:14:20.380 I understand the difficulties within it all.

01:14:24.480 Uh, and that how slow it is.

01:14:26.400 But I think big action by Democrats to to really go after those core issues of of of health and of jobs by somebody who feels like they're talking man on man with the Democratic populace, I feel like that's where it's going to live.

01:14:42.340 And so much of the party I hear talking about, like, are we too left?

01:14:45.600 Are we too moderate?

01:14:46.640 Are we this way or this way?

01:14:47.600 I'm like that gets in the way.

01:14:48.740 Like, like, you need to be a person, a part like right now, all of these kids, these younger generations, they are staring at phones with a person that they feel connected to who tells them to buy this lipstick.

01:15:01.040 They tell them to vote this way.

01:15:02.860 They tell them this is cool or this is not cool.

01:15:04.740 And they listen.

01:15:05.520 You need to be an authentic person who can communicate.

01:15:09.340 And that's why it can look like Bernie Sanders or it could look like AOC, two very different people of different generations, but who feel authentic to an audience.

01:15:16.660 It's like I think that message has to feel authentic, be authentic and be one of like of change.

01:15:22.740 Because people, people feel so scared right now and so nervous right now, like this idea of who has a vision for change that I can believe and trust.

01:15:32.580 I think that's what people want, everybody.

01:15:34.200 And even on the right, where it cracks in the MAGA movement, it's like, tell me that you see a way that this can be better and bigger and fairer.

01:15:42.180 I think that is a populist message that like the Dems can own.

01:15:45.880 I want to end there, but I want to get to redistricting because the tactics of that and what Donald Trump, I mean, he was on CNBC today and he was asked about the Texas redistricting.

01:15:58.920 He said that he's earned the right to have those five seats.

01:16:04.360 I mean, it's analogous to the hour long phone call with the secretary of state in Georgia, find me 11,000, however many 12,000 votes.

01:16:12.040 Now he says to Greg Abbott, the governor of Texas, find me five seats.

01:16:15.460 And he said, I won Texas overwhelmingly.

01:16:17.240 So those are my seats.

01:16:18.940 And in order to make everything else possible to have that conversation about health care and about affordability and about being able to even introduce yourself as the authentic self.

01:16:28.380 When we're rigging a system or changing the game mid census in this case, that's pretty damn alarming.

01:16:35.240 You were there on January 6th.

01:16:37.040 Now this guy realizes in 18 months, he may have some oversight with a different majority, the Democratic majority in Congress, in the House in particular.

01:16:48.380 And so he wants to rewrite the rules.

01:16:50.220 What is your sense of that in relationship to everything else?

01:16:54.900 And what does it mean to you?

01:16:57.480 Is it about power, dominance and aggression?

01:17:00.140 Is it the brand MAGA?

01:17:01.160 Is it about strength versus weakness?

01:17:05.860 You know, sort of that framework?

01:17:07.160 Is that a paradigm that you've observed, Democrats, Republicans, what MAGA, what Trump represents?

01:17:14.480 What does it redistricting mean at this moment from your perspective?

01:17:17.300 Yeah, I mean, honestly, I think this moment is so fascinating.

01:17:20.760 I'm honored to get to talk to you about it in this time we are in because I'm reading this news right now.

01:17:27.680 Well, it's such an obvious power grab.

01:17:31.960 And it's scary.

01:17:32.760 It's authoritarian.

01:17:34.000 It's anti-democratic.

01:17:36.920 And to me, where I see it in a MAGA movement is it will be lauded as a success.

01:17:43.320 You know, I do think we talk about the cruelty that is inherent there.

01:17:46.320 But I think, like, so much a part of this identity is in making other people pay.

01:17:52.200 That, like, to the victor go the spoils.

01:17:54.280 It's, you know, that's been Trump's brand forever.

01:17:56.940 Like, it's capitalism 101.

01:17:58.660 It's like, I get this because I work the hardest. 0.99

01:18:00.580 Screw you. 0.98

01:18:01.100 Work a little bit harder. 0.96

01:18:01.800 And so I feel like that is, like, a new framing device for democracy, which I wish we were able to push back against that.

01:18:11.460 And so you have what you guys are talking about doing here, too, which I will say I have, like, I don't know how to feel about it.

01:18:20.040 I am so scared as to what Trump is doing.

01:18:23.740 And it is so unfair and so undemocratic and just a power grab.

01:18:27.960 And on one hand, I'm like, I want to see Democratic governors and Democrats fight back, fight fire with fire.

01:18:34.740 I think that is what there is a real yearning for.

01:18:37.080 And at the same time, I am scared to run into, like, an undemocratic arms race. 0.67

01:18:43.900 And so I don't know, like, even walking into this podcast, I'm like, man,

01:18:49.680 I respect that something that you do well is I think you step up to the plate with Donald Trump and you punch a bully in their chin.

01:18:57.700 And I think that is a big part of where the Democratic base can find success in this movement.

01:19:02.780 And yet I worry about, like, where are the norms that we have to keep in place and where are the norms that we have to throw out in order to be in a place where norms can exist?

01:19:13.600 Well said.

01:19:14.320 I mean, it's and as someone that supported independent redistricting as an elected official when it first was presented to the voters of California, it took me a little bit to get on the other side of this.

01:19:24.580 But now I'm realizing, to your point, the existential nature of this moment.

01:19:28.960 And the other side, there are no rules.

01:19:30.960 They're assassins in this respect in terms of the approach they take to power and to ultimately control.

01:19:37.740 And so, you know, we're not only going to fight fire with fire, we're going to punch above our weight.

01:19:42.980 California is the size of 21 state populations combined.

01:19:46.680 We have an independent redistricting.

01:19:49.120 We have not gerrymandered our state.

01:19:51.520 No state has more to give to this contribution of the counteroffensive than the state of California.

01:19:59.460 So we'll neuter what they're doing in Texas, but we'll one up that because we'll take some of the more competitive districts and they'll be less competitive as a consequence. 0.88

01:20:10.120 And to your point, it's an arms race.

01:20:12.200 I'm not naive about that.

01:20:13.800 But it's also, you know, we're a race to 250.

01:20:16.800 Next year is the founding, the celebration of the founding fathers and the vision that the founding fathers laid out.

01:20:22.800 The best of Roman Republic, Greek democracy, system of checks and balances, the rule of law, popular sovereignty, it's all, all at risk.

01:20:32.020 And so forgive me for belaboring the point, but I think the point you're making is a difficult one, is how you reconcile those two things.

01:20:39.560 You want to do the right thing.

01:20:40.840 You want to, you know, sort of inspire to the, you know, the better angels.

01:20:44.620 But we also have to be accountable to this moment.

01:20:48.920 And to be clear, you think we're going to make it to 250?

01:20:52.100 We're going to, we have no choice, but we, of course, we're going to, what the hell?

01:20:55.640 I'm just checking.

01:20:56.620 I don't know.

01:20:57.480 I'm looking at property in Montreal, just trying to get a sense of like, okay, do you think 250 is going to happen?

01:21:01.860 You're just worried about singularity and AI.

01:21:04.240 So you're, again, everything, governor, everything.

01:21:07.000 Oh my gosh, it's also scary.

01:21:08.840 Yeah, we didn't even get to AI, thank God.

01:21:10.900 But enough of the anxiety.

01:21:13.260 Hey, Jordan, thank you, man.

01:21:15.040 This was a, this was a great, not good.

01:21:17.520 This was a great conversation.

01:21:19.900 It was.

01:21:21.120 And you know what?

01:21:22.000 You know, keep doing what you're doing. 0.97

01:21:23.580 But also, you know, if you need a, you need another job, if, if these sons of bitches figure out a way to cancel the Daily Show and try to cancel you, you're going to be in the political consulting business soon. 1.00

01:21:38.480 So you're fine, my friend. 0.95

01:21:40.160 Are you, are you offering me one of these Congress seats?

01:21:42.200 Is that what you're doing?

01:21:43.060 Is that what it is?

01:21:43.660 Oh, I know.

01:21:44.520 That's been your dream in life.

01:21:45.920 That's been your aspiration.

01:21:47.560 I guess you do a little improv on the, on the house floor.

01:21:51.480 Then you get gnarly, what, what's her name?

01:21:55.240 Marjorie Taylor Greene every day of the week.

01:21:58.480 I was going to say, oh, what a, what a, what a lovely workplace to walk into.

01:22:02.520 Jesus.

01:22:02.960 And we didn't even get to Matt Gaetz to be continued.

01:22:06.120 Oh my gosh.

01:22:06.600 Yes.

01:22:06.800 Well, I got plenty of stories.

01:22:08.500 So, uh, have me on for round two.

01:22:10.300 This was, this was, this was truly a delight.

01:22:12.740 I appreciate it.

01:22:13.780 I appreciate it.

01:22:14.380 Thanks so much, man.

01:22:15.180 That was great.

01:22:16.000 Thank you, brother.

01:22:23.040 This is an iHeart Podcast.

This is Gavin Newsom - August 06, 2025

And, This is Jordan Klepper

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