And, This is Richard Haass
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 4 minutes
Words per Minute
168.29344
Summary
This week on Dear Chelsea, with me, Chelsea Handler, Sophia Bush is here to tell me how that feels to be a hot, considered a hot lesbian. And Richard Haass joins me to talk about his new book, NATO.
Transcript
00:00:04.440
Just like great shoes, great books take you places.
00:00:08.240
Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.
00:00:13.400
I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.
00:00:17.920
I'm Danielle Robay and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club.
00:00:21.220
The new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcast,
00:00:24.480
where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off.
00:00:28.460
Each week, I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars, and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry,
00:00:38.860
Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:00:45.820
On the You vs. You podcast, we welcome Polo Molina, music manager to the stars.
00:00:51.280
From Will.i.am and the Black Eyed Peas, Ty Dolla $ign, YG, and Fergie, here's a sneak peek.
00:01:00.900
And the people that were hard on me are not here no more, so I'm hard on myself.
00:01:06.400
Listen to You vs. You on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:12.120
This week on Dear Chelsea, with me, Chelsea Handler, Sophia Bush is here.
00:01:20.420
Tell me how that feels to be a hot, considered a hot lesbian.
00:01:25.840
When you're actually more fluid with your sexuality, the swing goes from,
00:01:32.000
to, you better identify exactly who you are so we can figure out what name to call you.
00:01:36.380
And it's like, has nobody been paying attention to, like, all the hot girls I've been kissing on camera?
00:01:43.520
Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:02:06.380
It's the facts, the voices, and the perspectives that matter, 24-7, because our stories deserve to be heard.
00:02:13.560
Listen to the BIN News This Hour podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:02:22.040
I think everything that might have dropped in 95 has been labeled the golden years of hip-hop.
00:02:27.260
It's Black Music Month, and We Need to Talk is tapping in.
00:02:30.200
I'm Nyla Simone, breaking down lyrics, amplifying voices, and digging into the culture that has shaped the soundtrack of our lives.
00:02:36.000
Like, that's what's really important, and that's what stands out, is that our music changes people's lives for the better.
00:02:43.160
To hear this and more on how music and culture collide, listen to We Need to Talk from the Black Effect Podcast Network
00:02:48.660
on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:03:08.720
Richard, thank you so much for taking the time to come on, particularly at a remarkable time in world history,
00:03:15.220
particularly in history unfolding in the Middle East.
00:03:18.220
Today, President Trump seemed to have a day that he's been looking forward to for years and years and years,
00:03:28.260
What was your takeaway from this NATO summit, at least the first day?
00:03:35.300
And does Trump deserve, I think, a lot of praise for an accomplishment here?
00:03:41.080
I would argue President Trump, well, first of all, Gavin, good to be with you.
00:03:47.120
Look, I would argue President Trump deserves credit for spurring the Europeans to do what they ought to have done years before.
00:03:54.720
They ought to be putting forward a larger share of the effort for what's a common defense.
00:04:00.440
I would just as an aside, I would say much more important to me than whether the Europeans spend 3% or 2.5% or 4.5% is how they spend it.
00:04:09.900
And I'd actually say something you'd probably agree with in public policy.
00:04:13.160
How you spend money is almost always more important than how much you spend.
00:04:17.420
And the problem with European defense is not just that they spend too little, but each country pretty much determines how it spends its defense euros.
00:04:26.220
So the whole ends up being less than the sum of its parts.
00:04:29.620
So I would be pushing, if I were advising the president, I would say, yeah, push them to do more.
00:04:34.220
But secondly, also push them, in a sense, to become more European rather than country by country by country, which is the way they often go about it.
00:04:44.460
But I think that part is good. The less good is I think he's introduced some doubts into the reliability of the United States and what you might call the automatic quality of Article 5, America's willingness to go to bat for Europe.
00:04:59.980
And obviously, there's also some fairly significant differences about how to handle the most immediate threat, which is Russia and the war in Ukraine.
00:05:09.180
So I think it's a mixed bag. But yes, it's good to see the Europeans essentially getting pushed to do more.
00:05:15.960
And it's interesting, just as you unpack, and I appreciate the how you spend and where you spend.
00:05:20.980
It was interesting just looking at some of the details that their direct spend in support of Ukraine would be considered as part of that contribution as it relates to that breakdown of 5%.
00:05:31.920
It was also, though, interesting to see the breakdown within the countries, obviously Germany looking to move quicker by 2029 with close to 70% increase in their domestic defense spending.
00:05:44.780
And then Spain, who was called out by the president today, looking not necessarily to reach that new America.
00:05:52.660
Does that mean much to you or is that just, that's just noise?
00:06:01.080
Less what Germany is prepared to do in defense, though doing more is welcome.
00:06:05.360
But Germany has changed its laws and essentially now is able to raise serious debt, which was something that modern Germany had an allergy to because of the whole Weimar experience.
00:06:16.980
And the fact that Germany now can really go into the markets and raise debt gives them far more capacity to potentially grow their economies as well as to contribute to national security.
00:06:28.660
And I'd even go so far as to say the most interesting figure in Europe right now is the new chancellor of Germany.
00:06:34.900
And even though he had a rough start and getting confirmed and so forth by his parliament, I actually think that Chancellor Mertz is in a position to, in some ways, have Germany stake out the leadership position in Europe, something that historically, since World War II, Germany's been reticent to do.
00:06:52.380
So I would watch that space, particularly since the French, the British and others are so gridlocked domestically.
00:06:59.500
I think Germany now occupies the critical position.
00:07:02.960
When you referenced the Article 5, sort of, you know, I think the president, when he was flying over, there was some ambiguity, once again, sort of creating some doubt and anxiety.
00:07:12.300
He seemed to shift tone a little bit when he landed.
00:07:16.740
But is that it's just that on again, off again relationship to the Article 5.
00:07:20.900
Is that what you're referring to is sort of a lack of of certainty and confidence in the president?
00:07:25.780
Yeah, for those who haven't read the NATO treaty recently, Article 5 is the core of the agreement.
00:07:31.740
We're essentially an attack on one is considered to be an attack on all.
00:07:34.920
Curiously, it's only been invoked once in NATO's entire history, and that was on behalf of the United States after 9-11.
00:07:43.720
But alliances depend upon predictability and reliability and dependability.
00:07:49.520
And I would argue that President Trump has introduced a significant degree of uncertainty into that, which I think is counterproductive.
00:07:58.160
He would argue perhaps it was necessary to get the Europeans to do more.
00:08:01.640
I would have said, well, probably there's better ways to do that.
00:08:06.380
And to the extent Russia senses there's uncertainty there, Putin, who, as we've seen in Ukraine, can be risk prone, might be more likely to take risks.
00:08:16.000
So I always believe that the best way to deter is through certainty.
00:08:22.180
And just as important, your enemies know you'll be there for your friends.
00:08:24.800
So I would like for President Trump, as the days and weeks and months unfold, to look for opportunities to make clear that whatever our differences are with Europe over their level of defense effort, we see it as in our interest to be there with them.
00:08:39.760
In terms of the actual bombing itself, and I think by most objective standards, it was a success, whether or not these sites were, quote unquote, obliterated.
00:08:53.920
Is that your assessment that this was a success, that in the spirit of what you just said around some certainty that the president wasn't bluffing in terms of wanting to get diplomatic deal done?
00:09:05.880
They appeared not to want to move in that direction.
00:09:13.820
For years, we've been playing this game with the Iranians where they were enriching uranium far, far, far beyond levels anybody would need to generate electricity.
00:09:22.520
So we all knew what this was about, to put into place the prerequisites for a nuclear weapons program.
00:09:29.660
I also understood we couldn't allow Iran to get on the threshold, much less have nuclear weapons.
00:09:36.100
We made that mistake, I would argue, with North Korea.
00:09:39.100
We don't want to have it now in this part of the world, because if Iran ever got nuclear weapons, not only would they act more aggressively and pose potentially an existential threat to Israel.
00:09:47.800
But you know and I know the Saudis, the Egyptians, the Turks and others would follow suit.
00:09:52.800
And the only thing worse than the Middle East we've known is the Middle East I've just described.
00:09:57.000
So I think what Israel and then the United States did was warranted.
00:10:04.340
Whatever happened, the Iranian program was not obliterated.
00:10:08.520
Elements of their program, I expect, will have survived the attacks on the three sides.
00:10:13.380
More important, I don't know, you don't know, probably the president doesn't know,
00:10:17.880
what amount of uranium or number of centrifuges and so forth are under some roof of some warehouse in some other part of Iran.
00:10:27.000
I actually think going forward, Gavin, we have got to assume just the opposite.
00:10:31.840
The Iranian program was not obliterated, but elements of that program exist.
00:10:36.360
And what's worrisome to me, I'll be honest with you, I would think that a lot of Iranian leaders have said,
00:10:41.760
hey, this never would have happened had we had nuclear weapons.
00:10:45.220
We could have deterred the Israelis and the Americans.
00:10:47.420
So I worry that going forward, I think their determination to develop nuclear weapons might, if anything, be even greater.
00:10:55.560
Well, you know, I want to just pick up on that point because that's an interesting observation and an important one.
00:11:00.500
And we'll get to North Korea as well in a second because your reference goes back to the opportunity
00:11:05.480
the United States had under the Clinton administration to take out their program before it proliferated.
00:11:11.520
But I want to talk a little bit about the Non-Proliferation Treaty.
00:11:17.500
I think 200 countries were signatories to that, including Iran.
00:11:22.300
There were a number of countries that have developed nuclear programs that were not original signers to that.
00:11:29.440
Obviously, Korea and Israel, to the extent they have a nuclear program, quote unquote, but certainly India and Pakistan.
00:11:38.220
But those countries, as a consequence, would make the claim you just made that they've had that deterrent.
00:11:45.540
Now, Iran assumed that they would not be bombed, I presume, under the terms of the Non-Proliferation Treaty.
00:11:52.660
Does that put at risk the entire notion of the Non-Proliferation Treaty, what's just occurred?
00:11:57.920
So let me give you a slightly convoluted answer.
00:12:01.280
The Non-Proliferation Treaty is only a small piece of the effort against non-proliferation.
00:12:07.540
I don't think it's a wildly successful piece in many ways because it really is a gentleman's agreement.
00:12:13.180
We declare what facilities we're doing certain types of research or engineering in, and then the inspectors come look at them.
00:12:20.100
Inspectors can't look at places that are not known.
00:12:22.800
So the entire treaty, in that sense, is based upon a degree of faith that I tend not to have.
00:12:29.620
North Korea withdrew from the treaty, and there was no particular penalty or anything for them having done so.
00:12:36.580
It turns out the most important non-proliferation tool out there is not the treaty.
00:12:42.580
By giving countries the confidence that we are there for them, they then don't need to become self-sufficient.
00:12:47.680
And the biggest way to accelerate proliferation will be, for example, if the South Koreans or others come to have doubts about their relationships with us.
00:12:57.500
I'm not saying the Non-Proliferation Treaty doesn't have some utility.
00:13:00.580
And I think in particular, the inspection provisions can be useful.
00:13:08.340
And Iran, I would think, was going to do and is going to do what it wants, regardless of its obligations under this treaty.
00:13:18.640
I mean, so just let's speculate what happens going forward.
00:13:23.400
Obviously, this notion of regime change, people sort of pulled back a little bit, or at least it appears the president's pulled back.
00:13:29.640
I don't know if Bibi is pulled back on the notion of regime change.
00:13:33.560
But what won't change is their pursuit, presumably, of a nuclear weapon.
00:13:37.680
As you note, we don't know that the program was, quote, unquote, obliterated, even if the physical sites may have been.
00:13:44.020
We don't know where this enriched uranium is and centrifuges.
00:13:48.360
You imagine now, your concern is now, what, that they accelerate that program with the darkness, meaning without any international inspectors?
00:13:59.420
It might not be their immediate priority, which I think is to shore up the regime.
00:14:03.080
But at some point, I do think reconstituting a program will become a priority, which means, by the way, the day may come where Israel, the United States, needs to once again use military force if we discover some activity going on and the Iranians won't voluntarily give it up.
00:14:20.540
You know, it's not normal that problems get solved.
00:14:24.160
When I was the head of the Council on Foreign Relations, I used to discourage the fellows from using the word solve or solution, because that's just the way history works.
00:14:34.040
So I don't believe whatever it is we accomplished the other day, and however much we accomplished, it didn't solve the problem.
00:14:40.900
It may have reduced it, it may have set back the Iranian program, but that'll pop up again.
00:14:47.580
It's one of the reasons that people, I think, are attracted to the idea.
00:14:52.500
If you can't solve the Iranian problem through military force or through diplomacy, then people say, what's left?
00:15:00.600
And I think that's why there's so much interest in regime change.
00:15:03.680
The problem is it's easier to talk about it than bring it about.
00:15:10.220
And in any case, you can't base your policy on it.
00:15:13.640
People don't like it when I say this, but it's a wish more than a strategy.
00:15:17.820
If it were to happen, I think it brings problems, but obvious benefits with it.
00:15:24.940
And no president can give the order to say, Secretary of Defense or State, and say, get me regime change in Iran.
00:15:33.280
They wouldn't have then the tools to necessarily carry it out.
00:15:36.900
But when it comes to just issues of trust, and I think one of the questions that I get and I ask myself all the time, I feel like for most of my adult life, I've been hearing Bibi Netanyahu say they're just months away, a year away from having weapons-grade nuclear weapons.
00:15:55.440
And, you know, at a certain point, you just stop believing it.
00:15:59.380
But your assessment, you know, your own objective assessment this time did appear to be different, that they were getting closer and actually appeared to be within a matter of months in a position where potentially we had a weapons-grade weapon coming out of Iran.
00:16:25.620
Now, we know they had done most of the enrichment work they needed to do.
00:16:28.540
To get uranium enriched, plus or minus 60 percent, that's not just 60 percent of the effort.
00:16:34.380
That's actually closer to 90 percent of the effort for reasons of physics that I couldn't explain because I don't understand them well enough.
00:16:44.520
What you don't know is how close they were on some of the other things, the actual fabrication of explosive devices, the bomb, and so forth.
00:16:51.200
And there was the Israelis believed, and the economists published some very interesting stuff about it, that they had made some breakthroughs.
00:16:59.260
They had had some secret programs and so forth.
00:17:04.180
Just like after 9-11, we were less willing to run certain risks, say, about what Iraq could do.
00:17:12.800
And this is not a justification for the Iraq war.
00:17:18.460
I think Israel, after October 7th, had less tolerance of running certain risks in their case.
00:17:24.920
So I just think the combination of a change mentality in Israel, the evisceration of groups like Hezbollah, which couldn't really attack Israel anymore, and this new intelligence, which suggested however far along the Iranians were, they were farther along.
00:17:41.480
And I think for all those reasons, the Israelis decided to act, and we came in behind.
00:17:47.320
And does this keep Bibi in power for another extended period of time?
00:17:52.220
Well, he's got roughly, what, 16, 17 months to run before he has to, I think the elections are scheduled for October of next year.
00:17:59.840
Israel, as you know, is deeply divided about issues on democracy, Gaza, what have you, whether they're religious, can be drafted, and so forth.
00:18:10.680
Iran, left and right, hawk and dove, there aren't a lot of doves in Israel when it comes to Iran.
00:18:24.780
He has changed in many ways Israel's strategic reality, given the change in Syria, Hezbollah, the weakening of Hamas, whatever you think, however critical people watching this might be, of what Israel's done and how it's done it in Gaza.
00:18:39.620
The reality is that Bibi Netanyahu, in the last, what, 18 months, has dramatically reduced the external threat to Israel.
00:18:50.840
Just like great shoes, great books take you places.
00:18:54.580
Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.
00:18:59.820
I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of, like, butterflies.
00:19:04.400
I'm Danielle Robay, and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club.
00:19:07.640
The new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts.
00:19:11.360
Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers, and more, to explore the stories that shape us, on the page and off.
00:19:20.700
I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick, deep diving book talk theories, and obsessing over book-to-screen casts for years.
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So if you've ever fallen in love with a fictional character, or cried at the last chapter, or passed a book to a friend saying,
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you have to read this, this podcast is for you.
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Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Join Lex Borrero every week as he sits down with some of the biggest names in entertainment
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Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:20:51.100
This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler.
00:20:55.940
Tell me how that feels to be a hot considered a hot lesbian.
00:21:00.520
You know what's funny is you do this weird math, like if you're a woman dating men,
00:21:05.740
nobody wants to talk to you about your sexuality.
00:21:07.760
They just want to either say, like, you're a prude or a slut, you know?
00:21:15.900
And then the thing that gets added when you're actually more fluid with your sexuality
00:21:20.240
is the swing goes to, you better identify exactly who you are so we can figure out what name to call you.
00:21:29.200
And, you know, I sort of looked around and was like, has nobody been paying attention to, like, all the hot girls?
00:21:35.140
You know, maybe not in front of you off camera, but hi.
00:21:39.820
Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Now, back to your regularly scheduled listening.
00:23:25.580
And on that basis, are you confident that we'll have sort of an Abraham Accord 2.0 with
00:23:38.300
Is that the map that you see changing, or is that still an open-ended question with everything
00:23:44.240
that's going on or not going on in Gaza, West Bank, et cetera?
00:23:49.620
Look, as you know, for a while, it looked like it was going to happen before October 7th.
00:23:54.980
And then because of, if you will, October 8th, the Israeli policy, the Saudis backed off.
00:24:03.080
Two things may have changed now, though, which is interesting.
00:24:06.620
One is Bibi Netanyahu, as you were just suggesting, Gavin, politically is stronger than he was.
00:24:11.500
So he might give him more leverage against those in his government who oppose any sort of change
00:24:20.540
It's interesting on how many occasions Trump has distanced himself from Bibi Netanyahu.
00:24:31.600
He told the Israelis a few weeks ago, don't you dare attack Iran.
00:24:37.600
Just the other day, shall we say, in rather colorful language, he was out there.
00:24:42.760
So it's possible that tomorrow he would tell the Israelis, hey, knock it off in Gaza or do this
00:24:52.680
There's an unsentimental quality to America firstism.
00:24:57.500
And one of the things you see, we began the conversation talking about Europe.
00:25:02.920
Well, one of the things, whether we're talking about security or tariffs or now this, being an ally of the United States
00:25:09.000
ain't what it used to be when it comes to Donald Trump.
00:25:11.760
Friends and allies no longer get preferred treatment.
00:25:14.340
So it wouldn't shock me if Donald Trump, in his hope to get the Saudis to normalize with Israel,
00:25:21.240
put real pressure on Bibi Netanyahu and put the Israelis in a real jam.
00:25:27.620
And also, it's almost like Nixon going to China.
00:25:30.340
Nixon once said, you know, they didn't have Nixon to worry about.
00:25:33.060
Well, you can't do an end run around Donald Trump.
00:25:35.660
So if Donald Trump leans on Bibi Netanyahu, who are the Israelis going to appeal to in American
00:25:41.700
So I actually think that's a curious possibility that something could happen there.
00:25:47.400
Do you find him under the influence, and I say that loosely, I mean, because of his own financial
00:25:55.340
relationships to the UAE and Qatar and the Saudis, sort of the Arab, I mean, do you think they will
00:26:02.640
play an outsized role in influencing Trump in that respect?
00:26:06.160
Look, if they had, he probably wouldn't have gone ahead and done the strike.
00:26:10.160
As much as they wanted Iran cut down to size, they were very nervous that they were going
00:26:17.460
So my guess is they're an influence, but not a determinant of what he does.
00:26:24.220
I'm not comfortable with, shall we say, this merging of the personal and the governmental
00:26:29.180
when it comes to wealth creation or, you know, the fact that people don't recuse themselves from
00:26:34.500
things or they carry on private sector activity.
00:26:37.540
I'm as uncomfortable as I expect you are or a lot of people watching that.
00:26:41.400
But I don't think they have, I haven't seen that they have undue influence over.
00:26:45.940
What is it, you've written a lot about doctrines.
00:26:49.240
You talk about the Monroe Doctrine, I think 1823, sort of walked us through the Truman
00:26:53.540
Doctrine and aspects of not only Reagan, but even the Freedom Doctrine, as you refer to
00:27:00.020
it under the Bush administration, dealing with terrorism, no place to hide.
00:27:05.060
What, do you have any sense of what the hell the Trump Doctrine is?
00:27:09.060
Or, I mean, J.D. Vance tried to assert one in a speech yesterday.
00:27:21.320
It's still early, particularly in the second term.
00:27:23.320
And the second term is a hell of a lot more than a continuation of the first term.
00:27:27.700
You may love it, you may hate it, but it ain't, you know, Trump 2.0 is more than an extension
00:27:33.740
There is something with this America Firstism that our alliances aren't as predictable.
00:27:42.540
There's a kind of perpetual maneuver in American foreign policy.
00:27:47.540
So I'm not quite sure if that adds to a doctrine.
00:27:50.660
In some ways, doctrines lead you to predictable outcomes.
00:27:54.020
In a funny sort of way, Trump, America Firstism at times leads you to unpredictable outcomes.
00:28:01.560
I would say it's quite unilateral, you know, as we saw the other day.
00:28:06.240
I also wrote to you a few weeks ago that there is something of a doctrine.
00:28:09.940
It's the opposite of the freedom doctrine, where under people like George W. Bush or even
00:28:14.580
Reagan or Carter, we cared an awful lot about how governments treated their own people.
00:28:24.320
What you do inside your borders is your business.
00:28:28.740
So there's almost amoral quality to Trumpian foreign policy.
00:28:34.080
And again, doctrines have to explain and predict.
00:28:37.140
So I'm not quite sure yet we have anything that quite rises to that level.
00:28:42.080
I mean, the only thing that would contradict that modestly was J.D. Vance's speech in Munich,
00:28:52.280
It's the one area where it's almost like there's an equation of elite Ivy League universities
00:29:01.000
And that's the one place where the administration is willing to tackle internal situations or
00:29:10.980
But I think that's the exception that kind of proves the rule.
00:29:17.060
What's what do you think he's made of the last 12 days?
00:29:30.080
Is it status quo ante or is he now reconsidering things?
00:29:34.980
Well, as you say, I think you're 100 percent right.
00:29:36.980
He has to be happy with the fact that both at the G7 and then at NATO, Zelensky and Ukraine
00:29:46.020
And that very much fits or feeds Putin's idea that time is on his side.
00:29:52.280
So I think he has to feel pretty good, pretty good about that.
00:29:55.840
Anytime there's instability that increases energy prices, not that we've seen a real price
00:30:00.140
spike, that's got to make him feel good given his economy.
00:30:03.100
He's got to feel a little bit uneasy with this demonstration of American power, with the
00:30:08.020
discrepancy between what the United States can do and what, say, Iran could do.
00:30:14.280
But I would think all things be equal the last few days probably made him feel OK for one
00:30:20.900
I don't know if you noticed the one my chutzpah award for the month, the statement by the Russian
00:30:26.380
foreign ministry, critical of Israel for not respecting the territorial integrity and sovereignty
00:30:34.360
And I'm sitting there reading that going, really, really?
00:30:38.420
So but the Russians have to like the idea that we are we would unilaterally decide that
00:30:47.760
And that's got to be something that Putin might actually, you know, welcome.
00:30:52.900
And do you welcome sort of I mean, look, from a tactical perspective, turn the page in terms
00:30:58.040
of trying to negotiate peace in Ukraine, obviously stubborn.
00:31:01.580
He wasn't able to get it done before he took the oath of office.
00:31:04.320
He wasn't able to get it done within the 24 hour time clock that he set himself up for.
00:31:09.000
But sort of the overtures to Putin, sort of negotiating Putin's talking points and putting
00:31:16.820
But where do you think Trump is right now in relationship to, you know, he's been a little
00:31:20.980
more critical, at least publicly, been willing to be slightly more critical of Putin.
00:31:26.120
Where do you where you think the administration is vis-a-vis moving to a conclusion or a solution
00:31:32.820
They're caught in the inconsistency of their own policy.
00:31:38.920
And I think they had one improvement over the Biden policy where the Biden administration
00:31:43.340
would never speak honestly with Zelensky, at least publicly, and say, look, you know,
00:31:49.640
and we know that you're not going to militarily liberate Crimea or all the East.
00:32:03.980
Where he's inconsistent is he's sabotaging the chance for getting it by not being supportive
00:32:12.060
That gives Putin, again, the confidence that time is on his side.
00:32:16.960
If this president would announce this summer when the pipeline begins to run dry, we're
00:32:22.720
going to re-up American aid for Ukraine, not so they can militarily liberate all their land.
00:32:29.380
That's going to have to be done diplomatically.
00:32:38.320
And I actually think only for the more specific, I think that would persuade Putin over time
00:32:43.520
that more war would not lead to more territory.
00:32:46.480
And I think that actually would be the way to get things at the negotiating table, not for
00:32:55.260
It's just not going, it's going about it in 100% the wrong way.
00:32:58.780
So is Xi looking at, you know, year of whatever we're in with Ukraine, is that make him more
00:33:08.460
or less likely to pursue and make advanced pursuits in Taiwan?
00:33:18.740
The asymmetry of warfare now, the nature and change, the transformation of warfare?
00:33:23.180
What's your sense of where Xi is at this moment as well in relationship, not only to Ukraine,
00:33:30.020
but also perhaps more broadly as well, to what the Trump administration just initiated
00:33:37.700
My glib answer to you is going to be both or yes.
00:33:41.440
I think on one hand, he looks at Ukraine, he looks at the sanctions that have been introduced.
00:33:46.260
He looks at how Putin overestimated the capabilities of his own military.
00:33:51.620
He's seen how the West came to bat indirectly, but decisively for Ukraine, that had to have
00:34:02.120
There's no general in the Chinese military who has military experience.
00:34:06.740
The last time they fought a war was against Vietnam.
00:34:11.520
And for the Chinese government to go to war against Taiwan and not succeed, imagine the domestic
00:34:19.060
political consequences of that, the questions of legitimacy.
00:34:23.020
It would raise not just for Xi as a person, but for the party.
00:34:26.820
So I actually think they're somewhat cautious here.
00:34:30.640
I also think they have to find it impossible to read Donald Trump, again, given the tariffs,
00:34:39.940
And I think that must introduce a role of caution.
00:34:47.160
They've obviously got their economic challenges.
00:34:54.740
That's his way to make himself a major figure in modern Chinese history.
00:35:01.560
I think he wants to get a better reading on Donald Trump because we still don't have a
00:35:06.960
good feel for the Trump administration's relations with Japan, Taiwan, Australia, but none of
00:35:14.980
I think he probably wants to see some more about the lessons of the modern battlefield.
00:35:19.560
He still wants to build up, among other things, his nuclear arms.
00:35:22.760
One of the lessons I think Xi Jinping learned about was the United States did not get directly
00:35:29.460
And he, I think from Xi Jinping's point of view, that was because of the massive Russian
00:35:34.400
So China right now is the owner of the world's fastest growing nuclear arsenal.
00:35:39.240
They're adding hundreds and hundreds of nuclear weapons each year.
00:35:42.460
They want to get, they kind of want to get the bronze medal in the serious nuclear arsenals,
00:35:50.080
And they're moving as quickly as they can in that direction.
00:35:54.540
But my guess is they don't want a showdown over Taiwan for several years until they believe
00:35:59.880
they can offset or deter any American pressure because of our nuclear advantages.
00:36:06.340
What do you make of the new president in Taiwan?
00:36:08.880
He's rolling out, I think, this week, a unity tour.
00:36:14.440
I mean, he seems to be, you know, sort of not poking the bear, but certainly trying to sort
00:36:22.300
of suggest more muscularity vis-a-vis mainland China.
00:36:33.280
My view is what I really want to do is see Taiwan get stronger.
00:36:38.200
In Taiwan, the level of defense effort is not in the right zip code still.
00:36:44.140
You know, I look at, I mean, we talked about Israel a lot.
00:36:46.920
And, you know, Israel's in a, shall we say, difficult strategic situation, at least it
00:36:52.520
And you look at the level of military effort they've produced, or even us during the Cold
00:36:58.000
War, we were probably spending, I don't know, on the average of maybe six, five, six, seven
00:37:05.240
And look at the disparities between the mainland and Taiwan.
00:37:08.620
So Taiwan, you know, more important than what they say is what they do.
00:37:11.820
And I would say they've really got to make a much larger effort.
00:37:16.000
They've got to also look very carefully at what just happened in the Middle East and what's
00:37:19.620
happened in Ukraine and ask themselves whether they are incorporating the right strategic
00:37:25.240
Too much of the Taiwan military historically has elements almost of ours, large, a small
00:37:33.540
I actually think they need something, much larger numbers of smaller, cheaper systems would
00:37:42.940
The other country to really watch there is Japan.
00:37:45.180
I actually think we're at a moment in history where Japan's our most important ally, still
00:37:51.480
It's, and militarily, it's central to any scenario involving Chinese pressure against Taiwan.
00:37:57.580
And I worry about the deterioration in that relationship of late.
00:38:01.300
So, again, things like that might actually affect Chinese calculations as well.
00:38:06.980
But all that said, even though, you know, I worry about a lot and I worry about this as
00:38:12.920
a strategic, medium, long-term challenge, I don't get the sense this is a near-term challenge.
00:38:31.340
I'm just saying, I'm waiting for my G7 invitation.
00:38:44.180
It's interesting you say Japan is the most important.
00:38:46.300
I've heard people, others sort of, you know, suggest that Australia plays an outsized role
00:38:52.820
in terms of just, you know, looking at this sort of strategic realignment.
00:38:57.100
Where do you make, I mean, the president or the leadership there surprised some pundits
00:39:02.380
in pulling out a pretty healthy margin and a victory.
00:39:06.440
Obviously, their overtures back and forth to China.
00:39:09.700
But you made a point, which I hadn't really reflected on, Trump's sort of ambiguity with
00:39:14.580
those relationships, South Korea, obviously, and Japan and the trilat that the Biden administration
00:39:25.760
And obviously, Australia seems to be sort of the plus one right now.
00:39:29.400
But give me your sense of where Australia plays.
00:39:35.700
I think that the relationship isn't as robust as it ought to be.
00:39:41.660
A lot of, you know, a lot of our economic policy has alienated our friends, you know,
00:39:50.000
Most of the line on defense is do more, do more, do more.
00:39:57.040
So I would like to see, if you will, more consultation with them.
00:40:01.140
And again, you can't have economic policy and military or strategic policy carried out
00:40:08.960
It's very hard to hammer an ally or friend over trade issues on Mondays, Wednesdays, and
00:40:15.620
Fridays, and expect on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, the strategic relationship is
00:40:22.820
So I would say this is, again, I'm critical of a lot of the economic policy on its own
00:40:31.340
But even putting that aside, it certainly doesn't make sense, because it ends up penalizing
00:40:36.520
more than anyone, our friends, just those with the exception of China.
00:40:39.800
It's our friends and neighbors who are, as you know, our biggest economic partners.
00:40:44.640
With today, Donald Trump, in his press conference, when I was confronted on why he hasn't solved
00:40:50.160
the conflict in Ukraine, immediately, well, he pivoted to his success in immediately solving
00:41:03.600
Is that an early success that he deserves more credit than perhaps he's even been given?
00:41:07.900
It sounds slightly ungenerous on my part, but I think it's a bit exaggerated.
00:41:20.560
And, you know, look, it's always been difficult dealing with Pakistan and dealing with India,
00:41:25.700
but I think the great breakthrough, and it was a bipartisan one of the last several administrations,
00:41:30.040
was that U.S.-Indian relations got on a firmer, more important strategic footing, made sense
00:41:36.620
given India's demographics, economics, relationship with China, and so forth.
00:41:42.500
We began, as you know, to bring India into various Asia-Pacific strategic groupings.
00:41:49.220
I've always seen Pakistan more as a problem than as a partner.
00:41:57.540
And, you know, the questions of democracy and human rights, the role of the military in
00:42:05.600
If you had asked me years ago, what keeps me up most tonight, I might have said Pakistan,
00:42:10.600
in part because of potential loss of command and control over nuclear materials.
00:42:16.620
So the even-handedness that we've reintroduced, and the shorthand for this is that we've once
00:42:25.860
So rather than having a strategic relationship with India and a lesser relationship with Pakistan,
00:42:32.240
we now once again have an India-Pakistan policy.
00:42:36.100
And it seems to me that is not a wise approach, given what I would argue is India's greater
00:42:44.980
You know, how close they really were to, you know, I don't think things were that close
00:42:52.320
And that said, look, anytime the United States can dampen down actual or potential hostilities,
00:43:01.480
And I would, you know, say well done to the president or the secretary of state or anyone
00:43:11.080
And again, it may have come at some cost as well.
00:43:13.220
Yeah, well, and then there was also a price, the largest, I think one of their crypto exchanges
00:43:20.180
in Pakistan now is, well, and we'll get back into the corruption questions, or at least
00:43:33.880
So you've been writing a lot about, talking a lot about, and obviously only highlighted
00:43:40.040
But what the hell is wrong with American foreign policy?
00:43:47.600
We talked, we sort of jumped around different countries, different regions.
00:43:51.260
But the reality is we have been for decades and decades and decades bogged down in the
00:43:56.380
You, you have an interesting history working in Republican administrations, Bush administrations,
00:44:00.820
but you made the notation earlier, and it's important point to highlight, you were opposed
00:44:06.880
And so you've seen some light and some wisdom through all this.
00:44:09.560
But what the hell has happened to the United States over the last, I mean, my entire lifetime
00:44:15.360
been consumed by countries none of us could pronounce.
00:44:18.720
No one knows the difference between Iraq and Iran.
00:44:29.780
Just for the record, I did work for a Democratic administration.
00:44:33.500
And one of the big issues then was the Middle East, because 1979, you had the revolution
00:44:40.640
Then you had the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan.
00:44:44.560
Look, when the Cold War ended, what, 35 years ago?
00:44:47.960
I don't think anyone would have predicted, Gavin, that the Middle East would be such a focus
00:44:55.340
The first real crisis of the post-Cold War era was the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.
00:45:01.920
We, President Bush 41, rallied the country and the world to Kuwait's defense.
00:45:08.140
It was actually, to me, like I duly note that I was part of the administration.
00:45:15.360
But, you know, credit, I think, is due to the president, Brent Skowcroft, Jim Baker, and
00:45:32.440
And so, I think with the other day, what we did, I think, was warranted.
00:45:37.340
But in general, if I look at the map of American foreign policy, we still have 40,000 troops
00:45:44.480
It seems to me that it's a disproportionate focus for us.
00:45:48.940
It's one of the parts of the world where you don't have a great power presence.
00:45:52.500
You don't really have much great power competition in that it's regional powers, not great powers.
00:45:58.420
I would say, ultimately, 21st century history is going to be much more written about what
00:46:03.180
happens in Europe and above all the Asia-Pacific.
00:46:13.380
So, it seems to me, strategically, there is still something odd about the emphasis that
00:46:22.760
And I think we've gotten too ambitious there at times.
00:46:25.860
I think, in particular, 43's effort to transform it, to bring about democracy, was, I think,
00:46:39.500
And some other things that we've done, again, were, I would say, we should do no more than
00:46:44.160
is necessary in the Middle East, because there's other parts of the world that, I would argue,
00:46:54.220
I don't have a good answer for you exactly why at times.
00:46:59.820
One of the odd things for secretaries of state, and I've worked with quite a few,
00:47:02.900
how getting heavily involved in Middle Eastern diplomacy was almost part of the job after
00:47:09.340
And like it or not, people found themselves doing it.
00:47:12.740
And yeah, my take on all that is no mediator can ever be more successful than the protagonists
00:47:23.320
And I think at times, we've too often substituted our own efforts for what was missing on the
00:47:29.820
So my argument is not to get out of the Middle East, but I would, where possible, dial it
00:47:36.440
We had Steve Bannon on this show, and I don't want to even get the merits and demerits of
00:47:39.960
that conversation, but he's had a lot of more public conversations about what he perceived,
00:47:45.240
or at least asserted, was the wisdom of Trump focusing on things like Greenland or countries
00:47:52.760
like Greenland, focusing on the Panama Canal, looking at it more from a strategic prism of
00:47:59.180
sort of, you know, hemispheric framework and sort of creating a stronger consciousness to
00:48:07.180
sort of regionalize our American first framework and to put it in, you know, in at least creating
00:48:15.620
a narrative around what some of us perceived as just the absurdity of these threats to
00:48:21.680
take over Greenland, make Canada a 51st state, and invade or take over the Panama Canal.
00:48:28.180
But is there any merit to that argument, or is it just folly?
00:48:37.720
Look, it seems to be setting up a kind of spheres of influence approach to the world.
00:48:42.180
So we would have the lead role in this part of the world, presumably.
00:48:46.060
Russia would have a lead role in the European theater, China and the Asia Pacific.
00:48:51.500
Russia and China would be very happy with that arrangement.
00:48:56.140
So in a funny sort of way, we wouldn't succeed at playing an outsized role because it would
00:49:03.020
Like Americans, including a lot of the MAGA people, wouldn't want us involved in imperial
00:49:08.400
wars in this part of the world, whether it's Panama or Mexico or Greenland or Canada.
00:49:19.280
We can have the access, the influence we need without an imperial coercive role.
00:49:27.460
And again, the real strategic challenges of the century are not going to be met.
00:49:31.340
Here, they're going to be met in other parts of the world, above all Asia and the Pacific.
00:49:35.980
So I think it's really a truly misguided approach, but it makes me uneasy because I can see something
00:49:44.100
of it in this kind of people don't yet speak about spheres of influence, but it's kind of
00:49:50.340
And I'm uneasy about it, but it's not a recipe for order.
00:49:55.240
And history suggests that wherever there'd be a lot of opposition.
00:50:00.660
And by the way, it would become a real recipe for proliferation.
00:50:04.480
Watch how something like that were to begin to gain momentum.
00:50:07.980
Watch countries in Europe and Asia decide they need nuclear weapons of their own.
00:50:11.920
So I think that kind of an approach to the world would be, quite honestly, catastrophic.
00:50:18.440
You hear questions around the globe in terms of concerns.
00:50:29.980
It was a reference today of Congo from the president.
00:50:32.740
The only time we tend to focus on Africa is in relationship to China's investment, the
00:50:39.860
same with Central America or South America as well.
00:50:43.760
I mean, parts of the globe that seem to be under-resourced in terms of mindshare and investment,
00:50:51.840
What's your over-under in terms of America's posture in South America, Central America?
00:50:59.380
Look, what makes Africa sui generis, what makes it unique going forward, is demographics.
00:51:05.740
Most of the world is shrinking in number and getting older.
00:51:16.620
Africa is going to be increasing by, what, more than a billion people over the next generation
00:51:21.740
And the question is whether that's a burden or a bonus.
00:51:27.040
So I just think Africa is important, not in the sense of great power, strategic competition.
00:51:40.960
And the question is, can economically, these people, can they be employed?
00:51:48.280
Can you have good enough governance in places like Nigeria, South Africa, and other countries
00:52:00.300
And by the way, pretty true of Latin America as well, without the demographic dimension.
00:52:04.280
But again, the biggest problems in Latin America are not whether Brazil is going to invade
00:52:09.540
Argentina or whether Russia or China are going to do something.
00:52:14.700
Can the Mexican government meet the responsibilities and challenges of sovereignty within Mexico?
00:52:21.480
Can they deal with cartels and drugs and criminals and the like?
00:52:28.580
And where possible, I think our policy ought to be to help these countries meet their challenges
00:52:34.420
because it's good for them, but it's also good for us.
00:52:36.940
Then there'll be conditions of stability, better chance for democracy, better chance for trade
00:52:41.500
and investment, better way to deal with whether it's health challenges or climate challenges
00:52:54.580
But I think it also very much works in our favor.
00:52:57.560
It's one of the reasons, by the way, I'm so critical of what we've done to the Agency for
00:53:02.000
The real folly of that is not that it provides opportunities for China, which it does.
00:53:07.140
But again, we weaken the ability of these societies and these governments to deal with
00:53:13.840
That can't be good because ultimately failed states become places where terrorists set up
00:53:24.200
So again, even out of narrow self-interest, we ought to be doing more in these places.
00:53:37.380
So let me move back and I see you got a book behind you that I want to talk about in a moment.
00:53:43.040
And it brings us back a little bit more domestically.
00:53:46.080
And it brings back sort of just the prism of, you know, my lens has changed dramatically in
00:53:51.840
the last few weeks since I have just shy of 5,000 members of the U.S. military on the streets of
00:53:58.000
one of America's largest cities, Los Angeles, without counsel, consent, and the support of the state.
00:54:09.120
Revere the men and women in uniform that are out there, just not their assignment.
00:54:13.780
But it also sort of assigns some consideration and consciousness to this administration and what
00:54:21.560
distinguishes it from the first Trump administration.
00:54:25.300
I know you've got a blog, you've written a little bit about this, where you said Trump has organized
00:54:31.420
a cabinet that are more of amplifiers than more traditional sort of metrics of people that would
00:54:39.460
sort of, you know, create sort of a governing of our framework, a regulatory or regulate some of the
00:54:45.280
thinking. I mean, where are you today in terms of this administration, 150 or so days in, however many
00:54:53.980
days it's been, growing concern, simmering concerns? We overstate authoritarianism? Is that a word that we
00:55:02.760
should even be using? Is democracy hanging in the balance? Or are we fine? What's your sort of
00:55:09.140
over under? What's the temperature right now? Like the fact that we have to have this conversation
00:55:13.760
tells you something. I'm uneasy. I'm uncomfortable with words like authoritarianism and all that.
00:55:20.380
That's something to be avoided, ultimately. But there's tendencies that worry me. We haven't had
00:55:26.820
just two major lines that the administration's walked right up to and played footsie with, but hasn't
00:55:35.300
quite crossed in a decisive way. One was the one you were alluding to, which is the use of the American
00:55:41.260
military inside our borders. And that, to me, has all sorts of implications for American democracy,
00:55:48.840
but also it's terrible for the American military. It reduces readiness. It politicizes what has been,
00:55:56.080
in some ways, the most successful modern American institution that we have. So that's one thing that
00:56:04.260
makes me uneasy. We haven't quite crossed that line, but we've tiptoed up to it, as you know better
00:56:10.300
than I do. The other is defiance of decisions by the judiciary. And again, some of the quasi-defiance,
00:56:19.880
not quite hearing what the courts were saying on deportations and so forth. So that leaves me
00:56:26.260
uneasy. But I don't think either yet has reached the point of, shall we say, broad crisis or crisis of
00:56:32.700
the first order? But I think there's grounds for being uneasy. Look, it's the irony of this isn't
00:56:40.540
lost. Here we are. It's now what? Late June. And approximately, what, 12 months and a week,
00:56:47.640
we're going to be marking the 250th anniversary of this country. And to me, the lesson is not to take
00:56:56.320
democracy for granted. You've done good things, by the way, in your state with Josh Friday, I think,
00:57:02.120
in terms of promoting volunteerism and public service, which I think is great, both for the
00:57:08.660
values, enhances, but also it brings Americans together. I've tried to make a big thing about
00:57:13.780
civics education. We shouldn't assume that people don't need it or somehow get it automatically.
00:57:19.780
The answer is they do need it and they don't get it in their schools for the most part.
00:57:23.120
That ought to become a much bigger priority. And we ought to think a lot about what we need to
00:57:28.520
do to make sure American democracy works. But I get uneasy with some of the attacks on civil society,
00:57:35.520
whether it's law firms or universities or what have you. So I think there's a lot of yellow lights
00:57:42.400
flashing. And so my view is we ought to be mindful of them and not, again, not take anything for granted
00:57:52.060
or, you know, Churchill's always quoted for everything. And one of them is that Americans
00:57:58.940
could always be counted on to do the right thing after they do everything else. There's a kind of
00:58:03.520
sanguine quality. Or, yeah, we get in trouble, but we've always come out in the right place and
00:58:08.680
never sell America short. Probably, but let's not take it for granted. That's my only view. I think
00:58:15.180
it's just, we ought to feel a sense of urgency. And given how enormous the stakes are, I don't think
00:58:21.920
anybody kind of, how would I put it? You know, democracy can't be a spectator sport. And whether
00:58:28.040
you're in positions of authority like you, whether you're a quote unquote, justice citizen, or you're a
00:58:34.240
CEO of some business or what have you, I just think there's ways for people to make a difference.
00:58:42.640
And again, we just can't, it's too valuable to not, how would I put it? None of us wants to be in a
00:58:51.260
position where if things do head south, we wish we had done things that we, you know, that we simply
00:58:57.500
You talk about citizenship, you've written about citizenship, and you've challenged us to
00:59:05.800
reconsider what you refer to as sort of a lopsided notion of citizenship, that it's not just about
00:59:13.460
rights, it's about obligations. You wrote a book, The Bill of Obligations, and you enumerate a framework
00:59:20.220
about the critical importance of service and civics, the common good, the best of
00:59:27.500
you know, the Roman Republic, Greek democracy, and I think the principles our founding fathers took.
00:59:33.540
Talk to us a little bit about what inspired you to write the book. You wrote it a few years ago.
00:59:39.200
I imagine inspiration today would be even more acute, but it's an important and essential read. And by the
00:59:45.340
way, it's fantastic for anyone that's listening. Talk to me, Richard, a little bit, and all of us
00:59:52.080
about what inspired this book and what you're really trying to communicate.
00:59:56.040
Well, first of all, thank you. Years before, I wrote another book called Foreign Policy Begins at
01:00:02.780
Home. And, you know, I'm a foreign, as you look, as we can see from this conversation, for better or
01:00:07.380
worse, I'm a foreign policy guy. That's my educational training. That's my professional
01:00:11.460
experience. But probably about a decade ago, I started to see much greater connection between what
01:00:18.460
we were doing or not doing here at home and our ability to be effective abroad. I wrote about
01:00:22.740
everything from indebtedness. Ten years ago, a big issue was energy dependence, which, by the way,
01:00:28.960
shows we can work through things, quality or lack of it of our public education, strength of our
01:00:36.080
democracy. And I was worried very much a decade ago about our inability to generate majorities to
01:00:42.420
deal with challenges, increasingly, particularly at the federal level, less so at the state level,
01:00:47.440
we were gridlocked. And what I noticed in the years since that, things weren't getting better,
01:00:52.580
things were getting worse. And so I just decided, I can't quite answer your question, what inspired
01:00:59.980
me, but I was just thinking a lot about it. And I take long walks when I think about a book and
01:01:05.380
Central Park becomes my co-author. And just went back and reread, or in some cases read for the first
01:01:14.380
time, a lot of the great works of American political history. And I was just struck by how
01:01:20.800
much explicitly a lot of our modern or not so modern history was about the expansion of rights,
01:01:26.260
what Lincoln called the unfinished work. And I get it. And it's actually been one of the great
01:01:31.040
things, civil rights and so forth. We have a lot to be proud of in this country. It's towards a more
01:01:37.760
perfect union. We're not there, but we've made some real strides. But it seemed to me lost in that.
01:01:43.680
Increasingly, it was the other side of it, that no one was anymore talking about obligations.
01:01:48.720
And it's interesting, the founding fathers didn't talk about it a lot explicitly. I think they
01:01:52.040
assumed it, Gavin. I think it was implicit. They didn't think they needed to remind people about
01:01:56.460
it. But increasingly, it seemed to me we did. You look at the numbers of the people who are eligible
01:02:01.660
to vote and don't vote, the amount of people who get their information, quote unquote, from TikTok,
01:02:06.980
rather than from serious sources. The polls that show young people don't value democracy,
01:02:13.620
don't think it's worth saving, the lack of public service opportunities increasingly,
01:02:20.140
the failure to require quality civics to be taught in classrooms, growing threats or realities of
01:02:28.060
political violence, and on and on. And things like COVID and so forth showed me that a lack of
01:02:34.160
what you mentioned before about the common good, whether to get vaccinated or wear a mask. It's
01:02:40.080
not just for me, but it's also for the other person. So it just all added up. And I just decided
01:02:45.580
that I would put my hand to it. So it's, you know, for me as an author, it was great. But I learned
01:02:53.260
more writing that book than any other book I've ever written, because I knew less about it going in.
01:02:57.200
Huh. And you've written, what, 16 books? How many books?
01:03:01.080
I've written a dozen and edited a few more. So it's a large, it's up to 16, but I'm not done yet.
01:03:13.100
There's plenty of chapters of your life left. And look, I'm grateful for this opportunity to share
01:03:20.660
a little bit of your time and your action and passion, as it were. And when we get you back,
01:03:28.040
I need you back for the original conversation that we haven't had, which is what the hell's
01:03:33.480
going on with my party, the Democratic Party, and how we're going to take back the House, what we need
01:03:39.140
to do, and how we get back on the right side of these presidential elections.
01:03:45.440
You give me 30 more seconds. I was going to raise that, which is that everyone's talking about BDA,
01:03:50.020
battle damage assessment, in terms of Iran. I was going to raise BDA in terms of the New York
01:03:58.720
Okay, is that how we're going to end this, as opposed to begin this conversation?
01:04:04.220
That is, for all of you listening, a preview of the next podcast with Richard Haas, my guest,
01:04:11.220
on, well, part one of this two-part pod. Richard, thanks for being here.