This is Gavin Newsom - And, This is Secretary Leon Panetta

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:04.040 I also want to address the Tonys.

00:00:08.400 On a recent episode of Checking In with Michelle Williams,

00:00:11.440 I open up about feeling snubbed by the Tony Awards.

00:00:14.980 Do I?

00:00:15.840 I was never mad.

00:00:17.820 I was disappointed because I had high hopes.

00:00:21.020 To hear this and more on disappointment and protecting your peace,

00:00:25.160 listen to Checking In with Michelle Williams

00:00:27.020 from the Black Effect Podcast Network

00:00:29.300 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

00:00:32.260 or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:00:35.180 We are telling our scientists today,

00:00:38.180 we have disdain for your expertise.

00:00:41.220 And then you have China as an exception saying,

00:00:42.800 actually, we're going to invest a trillion dollars in new science.

00:00:45.720 You heard that right.

00:00:46.720 While the U.S. is slashing science budgets,

00:00:48.860 China is doubling down.

00:00:50.040 This means here in the United States,

00:00:51.380 less innovation, fewer breakthroughs,

00:00:53.420 and falling behind on the global stage.

00:00:55.160 This week on Dope Labs,

00:00:56.660 Chelsea Clinton breaks down what these cuts really mean.

00:00:59.300 Listen to Dope Labs on the iHeartRadio app,

00:01:01.680 Apple Podcasts,

00:01:02.260 or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:04.200 I know a lot of cops.

00:01:07.000 They get asked all the time,

00:01:08.620 have you ever had to shoot your gun?

00:01:10.460 Sometimes the answer is yes.

00:01:12.400 But there's a company dedicated to a future

00:01:14.980 where the answer will always be no.

00:01:18.300 This is Absolute Season 1,

00:01:20.520 Taser Incorporated.

00:01:22.040 I get right back there and it's bad.

00:01:25.280 Listen to Absolute Season 1,

00:01:27.320 Taser Incorporated,

00:01:28.460 on the iHeartRadio app,

00:01:30.120 Apple Podcasts,

00:01:31.120 or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:34.580 The OGs of Uncensored Motherhood

00:01:36.820 are back and badder than ever.

00:01:38.600 I'm Erica.

00:01:39.260 And I'm Mila.

00:01:40.020 And we're the hosts of the

00:01:41.060 Good Moms Bad Choices podcast,

00:01:42.860 brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network

00:01:45.100 every Wednesday.

00:01:46.300 Yeah, we're moms,

00:01:47.540 but not your mommy.

00:01:48.720 Historically, men talk too much.

00:01:50.880 And women have quietly listened.

00:01:52.480 And all that stops here.

00:01:53.900 If you like witty women,

00:01:54.880 then this is your tribe.

00:01:56.060 Listen to the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast

00:01:57.780 every Wednesday

00:01:58.780 on the Black Effect Podcast Network,

00:02:00.940 the iHeartRadio app,

00:02:02.060 Apple Podcasts,

00:02:03.000 or wherever you go to find your podcast.

00:02:05.400 Over the years of making my true crime podcast

00:02:08.140 hell and gone,

00:02:08.920 I've learned no town is too small for murder.

00:02:11.880 I'm Katherine Townsend.

00:02:13.220 I've heard from hundreds of people

00:02:14.820 across the country

00:02:15.620 with an unsolved murder in their community.

00:02:17.940 I was calling about the murder of my husband.

00:02:20.620 The murder is still out there.

00:02:22.160 Each week, I investigate a new case.

00:02:24.680 If there is a case we should hear about,

00:02:26.360 call 678-744-6145.

00:02:30.280 Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line

00:02:31.640 on the iHeartRadio app,

00:02:33.060 Apple Podcasts,

00:02:34.040 or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:02:44.480 This is Gavin Newsom.

00:02:46.880 And this is Secretary Leon Panetta.

00:02:51.720 Ms. Secretary,

00:02:52.700 thanks for taking the time to be with us.

00:02:54.480 And as a fellow Californian,

00:02:56.780 it seems appropriate that I start here.

00:03:00.120 We have so many topics to discuss.

00:03:01.520 Obviously, many issues going on

00:03:04.620 that are radically evolving in real time overseas.

00:03:08.700 But one thing that continues to evolve

00:03:10.980 in a very remarkable and meaningful way

00:03:14.060 here in our own state of California,

00:03:15.820 in Los Angeles,

00:03:16.980 is the deployment of close to 5,000 military personnel.

00:03:20.540 In fact, last count was 4,946

00:03:24.400 formerly National Guard,

00:03:27.280 now federalized and active duty U.S. Marines

00:03:32.220 that have been deployed to the streets of Los Angeles.

00:03:36.400 But, Mr. Secretary,

00:03:37.300 what's remarkable to me,

00:03:39.020 and this is where I want to begin with you,

00:03:41.080 is only a very small percentage

00:03:43.220 have been mission tasked.

00:03:45.240 The rest, quite literally,

00:03:46.600 are sitting around waiting for assignments.

00:03:50.540 Thousands and thousands

00:03:51.940 of former National Guard men and women

00:03:54.940 that were working to do

00:03:57.040 drug interdiction,

00:03:59.060 working on the border

00:04:00.360 on behalf of the state,

00:04:01.860 including many of them

00:04:03.100 working for other state agencies

00:04:05.580 in law enforcement,

00:04:07.240 have been federalized.

00:04:08.580 And I'm curious,

00:04:09.260 your thoughts about what you've seen

00:04:11.500 in Los Angeles,

00:04:13.060 your own reflection

00:04:14.080 as a former Secretary of Defense,

00:04:15.800 former Chief of Staff.

00:04:17.420 Did you ever imagine

00:04:18.540 thousands and thousands

00:04:20.160 of men and women

00:04:21.760 being federalized

00:04:22.820 against the wills

00:04:24.100 of a governor of a home state?

00:04:28.180 No, first of all,

00:04:29.300 thank you for having me

00:04:31.220 as part of your podcast here.

00:04:34.400 It's good to be with you, Gavin.

00:04:35.600 Look, I have a very different approach here

00:04:43.340 as a former member of Congress,

00:04:46.680 former director of the CIA,

00:04:48.580 and former Secretary of Defense.

00:04:52.080 I think it's very important

00:04:54.320 for this country

00:04:55.200 to respect the role of the military.

00:04:59.300 And the role of the military

00:05:01.900 is basically to defend this country

00:05:05.220 from foreign adversaries.

00:05:09.000 And throughout our history,

00:05:10.360 we've been very clear

00:05:12.120 that the role of the military

00:05:15.120 ought not to be used

00:05:16.520 for law enforcement purposes.

00:05:20.740 And I believe in that

00:05:22.760 because, frankly,

00:05:23.740 we need the military

00:05:25.040 to protect our national security.

00:05:27.660 The president just used our military

00:05:30.040 to conduct an attack in Iran.

00:05:33.820 That's what the military is about.

00:05:35.760 That's what they're trained to do.

00:05:37.960 And we have to respect that role.

00:05:41.180 And if we do anything

00:05:43.180 to politicize

00:05:44.360 the role of the military,

00:05:46.400 it basically weakens

00:05:47.880 our national security

00:05:49.100 and weakens our national defense.

00:05:52.360 So I think that

00:05:54.720 there are some real concerns

00:05:57.880 about the politicalization

00:06:01.300 of our military,

00:06:05.200 and particularly the activation

00:06:06.380 of our National Guard

00:06:07.680 here in California.

00:06:09.500 It raises real concerns

00:06:11.080 about whether or not

00:06:13.440 politics are being played.

00:06:15.880 I really do believe

00:06:17.660 that this country

00:06:19.960 deeply trusts our military

00:06:23.060 because they protect

00:06:25.120 our national security.

00:06:27.740 I hope we can stick

00:06:28.980 to that role.

00:06:30.720 Well, I certainly

00:06:31.500 appreciate that.

00:06:32.660 And, you know,

00:06:33.880 it's interesting.

00:06:34.840 Just recently,

00:06:35.780 in Los Angeles,

00:06:36.480 we had some of the most

00:06:38.040 destructive wildfires

00:06:39.120 in U.S. history.

00:06:40.220 And we deployed

00:06:41.400 roughly 3,000

00:06:43.340 of our National Guard

00:06:44.360 men and women.

00:06:45.040 They were there on the scene.

00:06:46.540 Quite literally,

00:06:47.340 they had pre-positioned

00:06:48.440 these rattlesnake teams.

00:06:49.760 They were doing

00:06:50.500 some defensive work

00:06:52.380 on vegetation management

00:06:53.560 before the fires erupted.

00:06:55.580 And thousands were deployed

00:06:57.140 within hours and days

00:06:58.420 to protect

00:07:00.260 and support

00:07:02.260 our law enforcement,

00:07:04.620 obviously our firefighters,

00:07:05.980 but also keep the peace.

00:07:07.680 They're extraordinary

00:07:08.460 young men and women.

00:07:10.720 And to see them used

00:07:11.940 in this way

00:07:13.040 is remarkable

00:07:14.680 as much as it is demoralizing,

00:07:16.420 not just for those of us

00:07:18.020 and positions

00:07:18.920 that we share,

00:07:21.340 but for them themselves.

00:07:23.440 I mean,

00:07:23.760 this is not

00:07:24.400 what they signed up for

00:07:26.040 to be in this position.

00:07:28.000 That's exactly right.

00:07:29.440 Look,

00:07:29.980 our National Guard

00:07:31.560 has been extremely important,

00:07:33.560 very important element,

00:07:35.820 again,

00:07:36.540 to our national security.

00:07:38.800 During the time

00:07:39.880 we were conducting

00:07:40.660 the war on terror,

00:07:42.620 the National Guard

00:07:43.680 was actually being deployed

00:07:45.240 and activated abroad

00:07:46.900 to try to help

00:07:48.520 in the war

00:07:49.660 against Al-Qaeda

00:07:50.920 and terrorism.

00:07:53.320 And that's what

00:07:54.440 the National Guard

00:07:55.140 is all about.

00:07:57.260 You know,

00:07:57.580 obviously,

00:07:58.260 governors like yourself

00:08:00.240 have a responsibility

00:08:01.920 to be able

00:08:03.680 to activate

00:08:05.020 the National Guard

00:08:06.040 when they're needed,

00:08:06.960 as you did,

00:08:08.300 certainly with regards

00:08:09.400 to the fires

00:08:10.240 in California

00:08:12.280 and certainly

00:08:13.000 with regards

00:08:13.740 to other areas

00:08:16.080 where you feel

00:08:17.120 it's necessary.

00:08:18.660 And that is

00:08:19.520 what the National Guard

00:08:20.660 is for.

00:08:22.540 When a president

00:08:24.000 comes in

00:08:24.660 and basically

00:08:25.560 activates them

00:08:26.900 for what I believe

00:08:28.980 are more political purposes

00:08:30.540 than purposes

00:08:31.880 related to

00:08:32.940 protecting the public's interest,

00:08:35.260 then,

00:08:35.940 as I said,

00:08:36.780 it undermines

00:08:37.920 trust,

00:08:39.160 not just

00:08:41.160 in

00:08:42.260 in our way

00:08:43.600 of government,

00:08:44.120 it undermines

00:08:45.320 trust

00:08:45.860 in the fundamental

00:08:47.080 role

00:08:47.660 of the National Guard

00:08:49.020 and our military.

00:08:50.240 So,

00:08:50.680 I'm very concerned

00:08:52.240 about this.

00:08:52.980 I think we have to

00:08:54.180 continue to hold

00:08:55.360 the line,

00:08:56.460 do the right thing,

00:08:58.080 make sure that

00:08:58.860 we're making

00:08:59.400 the right decisions,

00:09:00.360 and ultimately

00:09:02.020 I think

00:09:02.800 we will

00:09:04.920 get back

00:09:07.360 to

00:09:08.740 using

00:09:10.240 the National Guard

00:09:11.480 the way

00:09:12.460 they're supposed

00:09:13.020 to be used

00:09:13.900 because that

00:09:15.180 is what

00:09:15.860 the men and women

00:09:16.700 in the National Guard,

00:09:18.340 that's why

00:09:18.960 they joined,

00:09:20.180 is to be able

00:09:21.000 to be deployed

00:09:21.980 pursuant to the law,

00:09:23.600 not against the law.

00:09:25.420 Hear, hear.

00:09:25.960 Well, I appreciate

00:09:26.860 that sentiment

00:09:27.480 and we're doing

00:09:28.660 what we can

00:09:29.480 not only to exercise

00:09:30.740 our moral authority

00:09:31.740 as it relates

00:09:32.360 to calling that out

00:09:33.260 and trying to

00:09:35.060 organize

00:09:35.780 a larger consciousness.

00:09:37.260 This is, by the way,

00:09:37.900 not about California.

00:09:39.420 The order

00:09:40.100 that initiated

00:09:41.640 this is a national order.

00:09:43.120 The President

00:09:43.420 of the United States

00:09:43.920 now can move freely

00:09:45.500 on the basis

00:09:46.100 of this action

00:09:47.780 to do the same

00:09:48.940 on a whim

00:09:50.020 with any modest

00:09:51.520 protests

00:09:52.060 that law enforcement,

00:09:53.180 local law enforcement

00:09:53.920 can easily address

00:09:55.900 and now

00:09:57.420 can look

00:09:58.140 to weaponize

00:09:58.800 the Guard.

00:09:59.140 But I'm curious,

00:10:00.460 you, I'm sure,

00:10:01.760 saw the President's

00:10:03.060 speech at Fort Bragg.

00:10:05.200 So much attention

00:10:06.200 a few days later

00:10:07.100 was placed

00:10:07.600 on the military parade

00:10:09.120 and I'm curious

00:10:09.960 your thoughts on that

00:10:10.960 and I think

00:10:11.460 good people

00:10:12.320 can view that

00:10:13.380 through very different lenses.

00:10:15.140 But the Fort Bragg speech,

00:10:16.740 I think,

00:10:17.100 underscores,

00:10:17.940 Secretary,

00:10:18.360 some of your comments.

00:10:19.780 In this case,

00:10:20.480 not the National Guard,

00:10:22.140 but men and women

00:10:23.320 in uniform,

00:10:24.060 active military personnel,

00:10:26.520 hooting and hollering,

00:10:27.360 booing

00:10:28.180 former president,

00:10:30.180 the current governor,

00:10:31.200 California,

00:10:32.260 other elected officials.

00:10:34.720 At the same time,

00:10:36.040 the President of the United States,

00:10:37.640 as he was giving a speech,

00:10:39.040 was selling

00:10:39.560 Trump campaign merchandise.

00:10:41.860 I don't want to tee up

00:10:46.720 a softball for you,

00:10:48.020 but I imagine,

00:10:49.120 again,

00:10:50.120 it's a former CIA director,

00:10:51.800 not just former

00:10:52.620 Secretary of Defense

00:10:53.520 and Chief of Staff

00:10:54.340 and former member

00:10:55.260 of Congress.

00:10:57.040 You ever seen

00:10:58.000 anything like that?

00:10:58.780 Look,

00:11:02.820 you know,

00:11:03.460 obviously we live

00:11:05.640 in unique times

00:11:08.840 with a president

00:11:11.700 who doesn't

00:11:12.560 necessarily respect

00:11:14.220 all of the values

00:11:17.540 that past presidents,

00:11:20.720 whether they're Republican

00:11:21.420 or Democrat,

00:11:22.840 have always respected.

00:11:24.240 And when he turns,

00:11:27.060 when he

00:11:27.460 has that kind of speech,

00:11:30.020 which is basically

00:11:30.820 a political rally

00:11:31.920 with our

00:11:33.920 men and women

00:11:35.060 in uniform,

00:11:36.900 in many ways

00:11:38.180 he's demeaning

00:11:38.900 their role.

00:11:41.140 And,

00:11:41.480 you know,

00:11:42.060 what bothers me

00:11:44.840 is that

00:11:45.440 I believe

00:11:47.340 the President

00:11:47.820 of the United States

00:11:48.720 as Commander-in-Chief

00:11:50.420 is responsible

00:11:52.760 for protecting

00:11:53.560 our national security.

00:11:55.000 And the way

00:11:55.420 you protect

00:11:55.980 our national security

00:11:57.100 is by deploying

00:11:58.900 our men and women

00:11:59.820 where you need them

00:12:02.680 in order to ensure

00:12:04.780 that we protect

00:12:05.720 our democracy.

00:12:09.940 That's why

00:12:10.720 they're there.

00:12:11.420 That's why

00:12:11.960 we train them.

00:12:14.100 That's why

00:12:14.800 they go into

00:12:16.100 the military.

00:12:17.120 This is a volunteer force.

00:12:18.980 They go in

00:12:19.620 because

00:12:20.060 they want

00:12:21.060 to basically

00:12:22.120 help defend

00:12:22.880 this country.

00:12:23.840 I've looked

00:12:24.500 into their eyes

00:12:25.420 in Iraq

00:12:26.380 and Afghanistan

00:12:27.120 and elsewhere.

00:12:28.800 And these

00:12:29.420 are young men

00:12:30.000 and women

00:12:30.360 who are prepared

00:12:31.020 to fight

00:12:31.480 and die

00:12:31.940 for our country.

00:12:33.720 And they

00:12:34.420 will respond

00:12:35.220 to the order

00:12:36.320 of a Commander-in-Chief

00:12:37.560 when necessary

00:12:39.000 in order

00:12:40.140 to help

00:12:40.620 defend this country.

00:12:41.920 The President

00:12:42.460 needs to

00:12:43.260 respect that role.

00:12:45.000 The President

00:12:45.620 of the United States

00:12:46.880 needs to

00:12:48.280 respect

00:12:48.820 the role

00:12:49.560 of our men

00:12:50.660 and women

00:12:51.180 in uniform.

00:12:52.840 Not use them

00:12:54.820 for political

00:12:55.800 purposes,

00:12:56.920 not politicize

00:12:58.420 their mission,

00:12:59.560 not have a

00:13:00.820 political rally

00:13:01.940 at a military

00:13:04.180 post,

00:13:05.000 but give them

00:13:07.000 the respect

00:13:07.800 that they're due,

00:13:09.500 which is

00:13:10.260 that their

00:13:10.680 primary role

00:13:11.940 is to defend

00:13:13.680 this country

00:13:14.380 from foreign

00:13:15.320 adversaries,

00:13:16.140 and not

00:13:17.500 use them

00:13:18.180 as if somehow

00:13:19.480 he's an

00:13:20.360 autocrat

00:13:21.060 who would

00:13:22.180 just basically

00:13:23.000 use the

00:13:23.600 military

00:13:24.100 to protect

00:13:25.040 his power.

00:13:26.000 That is

00:13:27.380 a misuse

00:13:28.400 of the

00:13:29.380 responsibility

00:13:30.020 of Commander-in-Chief.

00:13:31.300 I know a lot

00:13:36.320 of cops,

00:13:37.160 and they get

00:13:37.500 asked all the

00:13:38.260 time,

00:13:39.040 have you ever

00:13:39.680 had to shoot

00:13:40.160 your gun?

00:13:42.400 Sometimes the

00:13:43.180 answer is yes,

00:13:44.320 but there's a

00:13:45.580 company dedicated

00:13:46.260 to a future

00:13:47.160 where the answer

00:13:48.180 will always be

00:13:49.360 no.

00:13:50.520 Across the country,

00:13:51.680 cops called this

00:13:52.600 taser the revolution.

00:13:54.340 But not everyone

00:13:55.160 was convinced

00:13:55.840 it was that simple.

00:13:57.080 Cops believed

00:13:57.860 everything that

00:13:59.140 taser told them.

00:14:00.060 From Lava for Good

00:14:01.180 and the team

00:14:01.640 that brought you

00:14:02.140 Bone Valley

00:14:02.720 comes a story

00:14:03.640 about what

00:14:04.280 happened when

00:14:04.900 a multi-billion

00:14:05.600 dollar company

00:14:06.340 dedicated itself

00:14:07.700 to one

00:14:08.340 visionary mission.

00:14:10.540 This is

00:14:10.860 Absolute Season

00:14:11.880 1,

00:14:12.720 Taser Incorporated.

00:14:15.540 I get right

00:14:16.800 back there

00:14:17.340 and it's bad.

00:14:19.000 It's really,

00:14:19.740 really,

00:14:20.360 really bad.

00:14:22.820 Listen to new

00:14:23.520 episodes of

00:14:24.240 Absolute Season

00:14:25.240 1,

00:14:25.960 Taser Incorporated

00:14:27.060 on the

00:14:27.500 iHeartRadio app,

00:14:28.540 Apple Podcasts,

00:14:29.540 or wherever

00:14:30.020 you get your

00:14:30.500 podcasts.

00:14:31.560 Binge episodes

00:14:32.080 1,

00:14:32.500 2,

00:14:32.660 and 3

00:14:33.040 on May 21st

00:14:34.220 and episodes

00:14:34.740 4,

00:14:35.180 5,

00:14:35.420 and 6

00:14:35.820 on June 4th.

00:14:37.060 Ad free

00:14:37.560 at Lava for Good

00:14:38.480 Plus on Apple Podcasts.

00:14:40.260 The summer of

00:14:45.000 1993 was one

00:14:46.380 of the best

00:14:46.940 of my life.

00:14:47.920 I'm journalist

00:14:48.340 Jeff Perlman

00:14:49.000 and this is

00:14:49.760 Rick Jervis.

00:14:50.680 We were interns

00:14:51.440 at the Nashville,

00:14:52.380 Tennessee Inn,

00:14:53.180 but the most

00:14:53.760 unforgettable part?

00:14:55.220 Our roommate,

00:14:56.040 Reggie Payne,

00:14:56.900 from Oakland,

00:14:57.980 sports editor

00:14:58.660 and aspiring rapper.

00:15:00.640 And his stage name?

00:15:02.260 Sexy Sweat.

00:15:03.600 In 2020,

00:15:04.480 I had a simple idea.

00:15:06.140 Let's find Reggie.

00:15:07.420 We searched everywhere,

00:15:08.900 but Reggie was gone.

00:15:11.900 In February 2020,

00:15:13.820 Reggie was having

00:15:14.460 a diabetic episode.

00:15:16.160 His mom called 911.

00:15:18.240 Police cuffed him

00:15:19.020 face down.

00:15:20.160 He slipped into a coma

00:15:21.380 and died.

00:15:23.000 I'm like,

00:15:23.760 thanking you.

00:15:24.900 But then I say,

00:15:25.920 my son's not moving.

00:15:27.600 No headlines,

00:15:28.880 no outrage,

00:15:30.280 just silence.

00:15:31.560 So we started digging

00:15:32.980 and uncovered

00:15:33.960 city officials

00:15:34.760 bent on protecting

00:15:35.660 their own.

00:15:36.600 Listen to Finding Sexy Sweat

00:15:38.060 on the iHeartRadio app,

00:15:39.860 Apple Podcasts,

00:15:40.860 or wherever you get

00:15:41.980 your podcasts.

00:15:43.760 Over the past six years

00:15:45.440 of making my

00:15:46.180 true crime podcast

00:15:47.280 hell and gone,

00:15:48.280 I've learned one thing.

00:15:50.020 No town is too small

00:15:51.500 for murder.

00:15:52.620 I'm Catherine Townsend.

00:15:54.020 I've received hundreds

00:15:55.080 of messages from people

00:15:56.160 across the country

00:15:57.000 begging for help

00:15:58.080 with unsolved murders.

00:15:58.900 I was calling about

00:16:00.440 the murder of my husband

00:16:01.640 at the cold case.

00:16:02.780 I've never found her.

00:16:04.200 And it haunts me

00:16:05.140 to this day.

00:16:05.960 The murderer is still

00:16:06.920 out there.

00:16:07.800 Every week on

00:16:08.560 Hell and Gone Murder Line,

00:16:09.920 I dig into a new case,

00:16:11.500 bringing the skills

00:16:12.280 I've learned as a journalist

00:16:13.420 and private investigator

00:16:14.480 to ask the questions

00:16:15.720 no one else is asking.

00:16:17.220 Police really didn't care

00:16:18.560 to even try.

00:16:19.860 She was still

00:16:20.340 somebody's mother.

00:16:21.480 She was still

00:16:21.980 somebody's daughter.

00:16:23.120 She was still

00:16:23.540 somebody's sister.

00:16:24.880 There's so many questions

00:16:26.160 that we've never got

00:16:27.620 any kind of answers

00:16:28.640 for.

00:16:29.320 If you have a case

00:16:30.360 you'd like me to look into,

00:16:32.100 call the Hell and Gone

00:16:32.940 Murder Line

00:16:33.500 at 678-744-6145.

00:16:37.880 Listen to Hell and Gone

00:16:38.980 Murder Line

00:16:39.500 on the iHeartRadio app,

00:16:40.940 Apple Podcasts,

00:16:42.080 or wherever

00:16:42.640 you get your podcasts.

00:16:44.180 Our iHeartRadio

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00:17:15.240 The OGs of Uncensored Motherhood

00:17:17.780 are back and badder than ever.

00:17:19.540 I'm Erica.

00:17:20.200 And I'm Mila.

00:17:20.980 And we're the hosts

00:17:21.700 of the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast,

00:17:23.820 brought to you by

00:17:24.560 the Black Effect Podcast Network

00:17:26.040 every Wednesday.

00:17:27.560 Historically,

00:17:28.180 men talk too much.

00:17:29.660 And women have quietly listened.

00:17:31.300 And all that stops here.

00:17:32.740 If you like witty women,

00:17:33.800 then this is your tribe.

00:17:35.020 With guests like

00:17:35.840 Corinne Stephens.

00:17:36.860 I've never seen so many women

00:17:38.220 protect predatory men.

00:17:39.340 And then Me Too happened.

00:17:40.380 And then everybody else

00:17:41.120 wanted to get pissed off

00:17:41.740 because the white

00:17:42.120 said it was okay.

00:17:43.280 Problem.

00:17:44.220 My oldest daughter,

00:17:45.340 her first day of ninth grade,

00:17:47.020 and I called to ask

00:17:47.820 how I was going.

00:17:48.620 She was like,

00:17:49.300 oh, dad,

00:17:50.000 all they were doing

00:17:50.520 was talking about

00:17:51.100 your thing in class.

00:17:52.280 I ruined my baby's

00:17:53.280 first day of high school.

00:17:54.920 And Slumflower.

00:17:56.160 What turns me on

00:17:57.360 is when a man sends me money.

00:17:59.460 Like, I feel the moisture

00:18:00.700 between my legs

00:18:01.500 when a man sends me money.

00:18:02.480 I'm like, oh my God,

00:18:03.540 it's go time.

00:18:04.500 You actually sent it?

00:18:06.700 Listen to the

00:18:07.440 Good Moms Bad Choices podcast

00:18:08.780 every Wednesday

00:18:09.660 on the Black Effect Podcast Network,

00:18:11.420 the iHeartRadio app,

00:18:12.500 Apple Podcasts,

00:18:13.400 or wherever you go

00:18:14.100 to find your podcast.

00:18:18.260 There seems to be

00:18:19.420 a lack of clarity

00:18:20.440 in terms of that

00:18:22.180 perspective and response,

00:18:23.800 particularly from

00:18:24.540 Congress.

00:18:25.820 You served in Congress

00:18:26.820 for, well,

00:18:27.800 what,

00:18:28.100 16 plus years.

00:18:29.580 And you revere

00:18:31.040 the institution.

00:18:32.220 I've heard you,

00:18:33.200 Mr. Secretary,

00:18:33.920 on previous interviews

00:18:35.340 talking about

00:18:36.600 of all the jobs

00:18:37.300 you had

00:18:37.880 from OMB director

00:18:39.380 to working

00:18:40.860 under the Nixon

00:18:41.540 administration remarkably

00:18:42.600 in that Office

00:18:43.240 of Civil Rights,

00:18:44.640 that your time

00:18:45.580 in Congress

00:18:46.280 when it worked,

00:18:47.980 it was a point

00:18:49.460 of deep pride

00:18:50.240 and reverence.

00:18:52.120 When you look

00:18:52.540 at Congress today,

00:18:54.060 you look at

00:18:55.300 the lack

00:18:55.920 of oversight,

00:18:57.360 checks and balances.

00:18:58.900 You look

00:18:59.580 at what I would

00:19:00.380 refer to

00:19:01.000 as the appalling

00:19:02.440 silence on

00:19:03.260 issues

00:19:04.120 like those

00:19:05.180 we just discussed.

00:19:06.080 what's your

00:19:07.960 assessment

00:19:08.420 where we are

00:19:09.440 and how the hell

00:19:10.560 do we get out

00:19:11.080 of this moment?

00:19:13.780 Well,

00:19:14.400 I have

00:19:15.040 very deep

00:19:15.860 respect

00:19:16.320 for our

00:19:17.740 founding fathers

00:19:18.480 and what they

00:19:19.720 wanted

00:19:21.680 in their

00:19:22.320 genius

00:19:22.720 to do

00:19:23.460 in creating

00:19:25.160 our democracy.

00:19:26.820 They made

00:19:27.700 very clear

00:19:28.380 at the

00:19:30.000 Constitutional

00:19:30.800 Convention

00:19:31.180 that they

00:19:32.640 did not want

00:19:33.280 to centralize

00:19:34.020 power

00:19:34.500 in any one

00:19:35.620 branch of

00:19:36.120 government.

00:19:36.660 They didn't

00:19:37.020 want a king.

00:19:38.040 They didn't

00:19:38.640 want a king

00:19:39.200 parliament.

00:19:40.100 They didn't

00:19:40.660 want a star

00:19:41.240 chamber court.

00:19:42.220 They had seen

00:19:42.880 what that was

00:19:44.020 about

00:19:44.440 in those times.

00:19:46.820 And so

00:19:47.200 they wanted

00:19:48.600 to make sure

00:19:49.520 that

00:19:51.260 they would

00:19:52.700 limit

00:19:53.180 power.

00:19:54.920 And the way

00:19:55.840 they did that

00:19:56.600 is by creating

00:19:57.480 three separate

00:19:58.220 but equal

00:19:58.700 branches of

00:19:59.400 government,

00:20:00.560 each a check

00:20:01.300 and balance

00:20:01.880 on the other.

00:20:02.480 And for

00:20:04.120 250 years

00:20:05.360 that system

00:20:06.040 of checks

00:20:06.460 and balances

00:20:07.060 has worked

00:20:08.120 pretty well.

00:20:08.840 It's been

00:20:09.240 threatened,

00:20:09.740 it's been

00:20:10.080 challenged,

00:20:10.980 but it's

00:20:11.660 worked pretty

00:20:12.180 well.

00:20:13.920 And we

00:20:14.740 are now

00:20:15.180 in one

00:20:15.500 of those

00:20:15.820 periods

00:20:16.320 where our

00:20:17.140 system

00:20:17.420 of checks

00:20:17.820 and balances

00:20:18.420 is being

00:20:19.720 tested.

00:20:21.600 And my

00:20:23.200 concern right

00:20:23.980 now is

00:20:24.540 that the

00:20:25.600 institutions

00:20:26.260 they created

00:20:27.260 to provide

00:20:28.040 that check

00:20:28.520 and balance,

00:20:29.900 they themselves

00:20:30.940 are being

00:20:31.480 tested.

00:20:33.120 Congress

00:20:33.800 unfortunately

00:20:34.560 is not

00:20:35.900 standing up

00:20:36.700 and really

00:20:37.620 being a

00:20:38.200 check in

00:20:38.980 our system

00:20:39.440 right now.

00:20:40.320 They're

00:20:40.980 basically

00:20:41.400 standing

00:20:42.000 back

00:20:42.500 and

00:20:43.920 giving

00:20:46.500 the

00:20:48.040 president

00:20:48.440 a free

00:20:50.520 ride,

00:20:51.460 a blank

00:20:52.620 check

00:20:53.080 with regards

00:20:54.340 to everything

00:20:54.940 he's doing

00:20:55.660 rather than

00:20:56.360 serving

00:20:56.800 as a

00:20:58.360 check,

00:20:58.860 rather than

00:20:59.420 having the

00:21:00.140 hearings that

00:21:00.740 have to be

00:21:01.260 done,

00:21:02.100 rather than

00:21:03.680 standing up

00:21:04.560 and saying

00:21:05.160 no,

00:21:05.900 we cannot

00:21:06.740 abuse the

00:21:08.340 Constitution of

00:21:09.340 the United

00:21:09.760 States.

00:21:10.680 We swear an

00:21:11.600 oath to

00:21:12.360 preserve,

00:21:12.940 protect,

00:21:13.280 and defend

00:21:13.640 the Constitution.

00:21:14.780 We have to

00:21:15.260 stand by that.

00:21:16.200 I was a

00:21:16.740 believer in

00:21:17.240 that as

00:21:18.160 somebody in

00:21:18.740 Congress who

00:21:19.300 swore that

00:21:19.820 oath.

00:21:20.760 And I think

00:21:21.480 that's what

00:21:21.960 Congress has

00:21:22.520 to do.

00:21:22.920 That's not

00:21:23.340 happening.

00:21:23.860 We understand

00:21:24.380 that.

00:21:25.380 So the

00:21:26.700 only check

00:21:27.400 that's happening

00:21:28.020 right now,

00:21:28.500 we certainly

00:21:28.840 aren't getting a

00:21:29.520 check by the

00:21:30.100 executive.

00:21:30.880 The only

00:21:31.600 check that's

00:21:32.220 happening right

00:21:32.900 now that's

00:21:33.400 effective are

00:21:33.980 the courts.

00:21:34.900 And I give

00:21:35.540 them a tremendous

00:21:36.240 amount of

00:21:36.840 credit for

00:21:37.840 their willingness

00:21:38.380 to stand up

00:21:39.420 and to be

00:21:40.540 able to

00:21:41.300 uphold the

00:21:42.540 rule of

00:21:42.960 law.

00:21:44.040 Unfortunately,

00:21:45.880 as we all

00:21:47.180 know, it

00:21:47.700 takes time for

00:21:48.480 the courts to

00:21:49.140 act.

00:21:50.180 And a lot of

00:21:50.940 damage can be

00:21:51.720 done in the

00:21:52.260 interim.

00:21:53.400 So I really

00:21:54.860 think it's

00:21:55.420 important that

00:21:56.980 our system of

00:21:57.660 checks and

00:21:58.080 balances work,

00:21:58.880 and probably

00:21:59.420 the only way

00:22:00.140 that's going

00:22:00.500 to happen

00:22:00.820 right now is

00:22:01.460 the American

00:22:01.900 people, because

00:22:03.160 the American

00:22:03.720 people are

00:22:04.460 the ultimate

00:22:05.380 check in a

00:22:06.680 democracy.

00:22:07.640 That's in the

00:22:08.420 Constitution.

00:22:09.600 Their ability

00:22:10.240 to vote, their

00:22:11.620 ability to vote

00:22:13.040 for elected

00:22:13.660 leaders is the

00:22:15.280 fundamental check

00:22:16.540 in a democracy.

00:22:18.020 So I remain

00:22:19.640 hopeful that

00:22:20.720 ultimately we

00:22:21.600 will get

00:22:22.040 through this

00:22:22.620 because our

00:22:23.600 forefathers

00:22:24.240 believed that

00:22:25.960 we cannot

00:22:26.900 afford to

00:22:28.440 centralize

00:22:29.200 power, certainly

00:22:30.740 in the

00:22:31.100 presidency.

00:22:32.400 I appreciate

00:22:32.940 it.

00:22:33.280 I'm reminded

00:22:33.880 as you

00:22:35.140 share those

00:22:36.080 words and

00:22:36.520 thoughts of

00:22:37.040 Justice

00:22:37.440 Brandeis who

00:22:38.120 said, in a

00:22:38.940 democracy, the

00:22:40.280 most important

00:22:41.180 office is

00:22:42.440 office of

00:22:43.080 citizen.

00:22:44.200 This notion

00:22:44.980 of active,

00:22:45.680 not inert

00:22:46.180 citizenship, and

00:22:47.440 it's a

00:22:47.900 reminder to

00:22:48.280 everybody

00:22:48.560 listening of

00:22:49.840 the imperative

00:22:50.480 to reconcile

00:22:52.500 the fact that

00:22:53.280 you're not

00:22:53.640 bystanders, that

00:22:54.480 we have

00:22:54.780 agency, that

00:22:55.420 we can

00:22:55.700 shape the

00:22:56.120 future.

00:22:57.640 And I

00:22:58.580 think in

00:22:59.380 so many

00:22:59.700 ways we

00:23:00.280 saw that

00:23:01.060 on the

00:23:02.500 same day

00:23:03.060 that the

00:23:04.000 president was

00:23:05.280 celebrating, and

00:23:06.300 I certainly

00:23:07.260 appreciate

00:23:07.820 celebrating with

00:23:10.320 the kind of

00:23:10.940 reverence they

00:23:11.460 deserve of the

00:23:12.440 United States

00:23:12.960 military in a

00:23:14.540 parade.

00:23:15.980 Same time,

00:23:16.920 though, millions

00:23:17.460 of people showed

00:23:18.460 up in a

00:23:18.920 No Kings

00:23:19.360 rally, sort

00:23:20.420 of reinforcing

00:23:21.040 the framework

00:23:21.760 that our

00:23:23.420 founding fathers

00:23:24.420 tried to

00:23:25.740 correct, or

00:23:26.780 at least

00:23:27.120 counter.

00:23:28.460 And I

00:23:29.360 think it

00:23:29.720 shows that

00:23:30.400 democracy is

00:23:31.920 still alive

00:23:33.240 bottom-up, if

00:23:35.780 not the

00:23:36.380 moment top-down.

00:23:37.880 Yeah, Gavin,

00:23:38.920 I often say

00:23:39.680 that in my

00:23:41.720 over 50 years

00:23:42.520 of public

00:23:43.000 life, I've

00:23:43.560 seen Washington

00:23:44.240 at its best,

00:23:45.080 and I've

00:23:45.360 seen Washington

00:23:45.960 at its worst.

00:23:48.260 The good

00:23:48.800 news is I've

00:23:49.400 seen Washington

00:23:50.080 work.

00:23:50.600 when I

00:23:52.240 was first

00:23:53.080 elected,

00:23:54.580 Tip O'Neill

00:23:55.200 was Speaker

00:23:56.440 of the House,

00:23:57.300 a Democrat's

00:23:58.080 Democrat from

00:23:58.720 Boston, but

00:23:59.980 he had a great

00:24:00.520 relationship with

00:24:01.360 Bob Michael, who

00:24:02.180 was the minority

00:24:02.760 leader from

00:24:03.620 Illinois.

00:24:05.120 And the basic

00:24:06.100 message, of course

00:24:07.160 they had their

00:24:07.640 politics, they

00:24:08.380 fought each other

00:24:09.780 in the election,

00:24:10.900 but when it came

00:24:11.640 to big issues,

00:24:12.440 they worked

00:24:12.780 together.

00:24:14.140 The message we

00:24:15.160 always got is

00:24:15.940 that Republicans

00:24:16.540 and Democrats

00:24:17.180 have to work

00:24:18.020 together in

00:24:19.220 order to

00:24:19.700 govern the

00:24:20.120 country, and

00:24:20.700 we did, we

00:24:21.740 did.

00:24:22.620 During the

00:24:23.100 Reagan

00:24:23.340 administration,

00:24:25.480 a Democratic

00:24:26.100 Congress passed

00:24:27.020 Social Security

00:24:27.860 reform.

00:24:28.680 It's the third

00:24:29.360 rail of politics.

00:24:30.700 We passed it

00:24:31.260 with a bipartisan

00:24:31.920 vote.

00:24:32.640 We passed

00:24:33.340 immigration

00:24:33.940 reform,

00:24:35.180 comprehensive

00:24:35.780 immigration

00:24:36.720 reform,

00:24:37.820 bipartisan,

00:24:39.080 bipartisan vote.

00:24:40.960 We passed

00:24:41.420 tax reform.

00:24:42.900 We dealt

00:24:43.800 with the

00:24:44.160 budget.

00:24:45.140 We were

00:24:45.380 able to

00:24:46.420 frankly pass

00:24:48.100 agreements

00:24:48.900 to help

00:24:50.200 bring the

00:24:50.640 deficit

00:24:50.980 down and

00:24:51.700 discipline

00:24:52.120 the federal

00:24:52.660 budget and

00:24:53.300 balance the

00:24:54.020 federal budget.

00:24:55.100 Not only

00:24:55.700 balance it,

00:24:56.520 but get a

00:24:57.040 surplus.

00:24:57.880 That was

00:24:58.520 done because

00:24:59.340 parties were

00:25:00.080 willing to

00:25:00.660 work together.

00:25:02.340 Today, we

00:25:03.680 are at a

00:25:04.080 time when

00:25:04.920 there's a

00:25:05.300 lot of

00:25:05.540 partisanship,

00:25:06.380 a lot of

00:25:06.740 division, a

00:25:07.900 lot of

00:25:08.180 unwillingness to

00:25:09.000 be able to

00:25:09.740 govern together,

00:25:10.960 and the

00:25:11.660 result is that

00:25:12.600 Washington is

00:25:13.400 dysfunctional,

00:25:14.860 and that is

00:25:15.600 hurting our

00:25:16.100 democracy.

00:25:16.620 On that

00:25:19.060 topic, because

00:25:19.820 we've explored

00:25:20.680 that on the

00:25:21.100 podcast, we've

00:25:21.800 had a number

00:25:22.180 of interesting

00:25:22.680 guests and

00:25:23.300 people very

00:25:24.080 familiar to

00:25:24.660 you.

00:25:25.000 Former

00:25:25.200 Speaker

00:25:25.580 Newt

00:25:25.880 Gingrich was

00:25:27.160 on.

00:25:27.580 We had an

00:25:27.860 opportunity to

00:25:28.340 talk to

00:25:28.600 Frank Luntz.

00:25:29.780 Obviously,

00:25:30.760 that's very

00:25:31.320 personal to

00:25:31.920 you because

00:25:32.460 you referenced

00:25:33.240 in that

00:25:34.080 list.

00:25:35.260 You have a

00:25:35.980 lot of

00:25:36.180 receipts on

00:25:36.740 that list,

00:25:37.500 as personal

00:25:37.960 as it is to

00:25:40.300 you, not

00:25:40.680 only as a

00:25:41.160 former member

00:25:41.640 of Congress,

00:25:42.200 some of those

00:25:43.020 outline items you

00:25:44.160 just listed,

00:25:44.800 but also you

00:25:45.680 were chief of

00:25:46.120 staff of

00:25:46.560 Bill Clinton

00:25:47.040 when we had

00:25:47.920 that balanced

00:25:48.460 budget.

00:25:48.900 You worked

00:25:49.300 with Newt

00:25:50.020 Gingrich across

00:25:50.760 the party

00:25:51.160 lines.

00:25:51.640 You proved,

00:25:52.600 not just

00:25:53.100 asserted, that

00:25:54.520 we can work

00:25:55.380 together across

00:25:56.080 our differences,

00:25:56.640 but the

00:25:57.120 question that

00:25:58.020 I'm continuing

00:25:58.920 to be vexed

00:26:00.380 with is,

00:26:01.200 what the hell

00:26:01.820 happened, and

00:26:02.480 when did it

00:26:02.920 happen, and

00:26:03.900 who's responsible?

00:26:05.540 When did

00:26:06.120 things start to

00:26:06.920 collapse?

00:26:07.880 At the same

00:26:08.920 time, it seemed

00:26:09.600 to be peak

00:26:10.380 partisanship.

00:26:12.260 You guys were

00:26:12.940 working together

00:26:13.660 in the Clinton

00:26:14.120 administration.

00:26:14.580 You took

00:26:15.640 over, I

00:26:16.740 mean, I'll

00:26:17.180 say with

00:26:17.560 love and

00:26:18.040 respect to

00:26:18.760 former

00:26:19.520 President

00:26:19.840 Clinton, but

00:26:20.220 it was a

00:26:20.440 rather

00:26:20.620 dysfunctional

00:26:21.800 office at

00:26:22.540 the time.

00:26:23.220 You got

00:26:24.000 shellacked in

00:26:24.880 the midterms.

00:26:26.440 You've

00:26:26.680 described the

00:26:27.560 former

00:26:27.820 President

00:26:28.240 Clinton as

00:26:29.200 being depressed

00:26:30.580 in terms about

00:26:32.200 his standing,

00:26:33.280 and you came

00:26:34.020 in, and you

00:26:35.380 were part of

00:26:35.800 that turnaround,

00:26:36.780 and you

00:26:37.500 also advanced

00:26:39.520 a different

00:26:40.540 frame, a

00:26:41.020 closed fist,

00:26:41.840 talk about

00:26:42.300 turnaround, with

00:26:43.260 an open

00:26:43.620 hand, to

00:26:44.680 partner with

00:26:46.340 a Republican

00:26:46.980 speaker and

00:26:49.680 produce those

00:26:50.480 results.

00:26:51.500 But was that

00:26:52.100 the moment

00:26:52.540 things were

00:26:53.620 advanced, or

00:26:54.680 was that the

00:26:55.120 moment this

00:26:56.220 setback began?

00:26:57.400 It was not an

00:26:58.100 easy time, as

00:26:59.120 you pointed

00:27:00.600 out.

00:27:01.600 Imagine, I

00:27:03.000 mean, the

00:27:03.300 President,

00:27:03.840 President

00:27:04.180 Clinton, you

00:27:06.000 know, really

00:27:06.900 was moving

00:27:08.300 forward.

00:27:09.000 He had

00:27:09.320 passed a

00:27:10.700 very tough

00:27:11.280 budget, we

00:27:13.200 were passing

00:27:14.160 appropriations

00:27:15.000 bills, he

00:27:15.660 passed family

00:27:16.380 leave, he

00:27:17.780 passed NAFTA,

00:27:18.860 he passed a

00:27:19.800 number of

00:27:20.260 things, and

00:27:21.820 then, as

00:27:23.000 you all know,

00:27:23.960 in politics,

00:27:25.680 it can come

00:27:27.140 back to

00:27:28.540 bite you, and

00:27:29.240 it did in the

00:27:30.360 midterms, and

00:27:32.040 the President

00:27:32.460 lost the

00:27:33.120 Congress to

00:27:34.060 the Republicans,

00:27:34.660 and he was

00:27:35.720 depressed about

00:27:37.200 where his

00:27:39.020 administration was

00:27:39.900 going to go, and

00:27:40.560 having been

00:27:42.200 through these

00:27:43.580 changes in my

00:27:44.560 own lifetime, I

00:27:45.980 told the

00:27:46.400 President, look,

00:27:47.340 ultimately, every

00:27:48.540 crisis provides

00:27:49.540 an opportunity.

00:27:50.860 This is a

00:27:51.380 crisis, it

00:27:52.780 does provide an

00:27:53.660 opportunity, you

00:27:55.440 need to sit

00:27:56.020 down and try to

00:27:57.420 see if there are

00:27:58.160 areas where we

00:27:59.000 can work

00:27:59.380 together.

00:28:00.320 Unfortunately, at

00:28:01.220 the beginning,

00:28:02.320 Newt

00:28:02.560 Gingrich took

00:28:03.180 a position, he

00:28:03.880 was going to

00:28:04.600 push for his

00:28:05.300 own budget, cut

00:28:06.440 Medicare, and

00:28:07.260 cut some other

00:28:07.920 vital programs.

00:28:09.100 The President

00:28:09.700 dug in, and

00:28:11.260 what the

00:28:11.540 Republicans did

00:28:12.500 in response was

00:28:13.340 to shut the

00:28:13.840 government down.

00:28:15.300 The government

00:28:15.900 was shut down,

00:28:16.720 this is the

00:28:17.160 first time the

00:28:17.800 government was

00:28:18.220 shut down for

00:28:18.820 almost two

00:28:19.360 weeks, and

00:28:21.100 it backfired on

00:28:22.040 the Republicans.

00:28:23.780 And Newt

00:28:24.480 Gingrich then, to

00:28:25.340 his credit, decided

00:28:26.400 maybe the better

00:28:27.600 approach would be to

00:28:28.560 actually try to

00:28:29.360 work with the

00:28:29.860 President.

00:28:30.720 The President

00:28:31.460 took them up on

00:28:32.280 that, they were

00:28:32.860 able to work

00:28:33.580 together, we did

00:28:34.460 some things on

00:28:35.080 the budget, we

00:28:35.700 did some things on

00:28:36.500 health care, we

00:28:37.960 were able to

00:28:38.680 get things

00:28:39.240 done.

00:28:40.440 But that was

00:28:41.120 because there

00:28:42.120 was a willingness

00:28:42.960 then to try to

00:28:44.800 see if we could

00:28:45.600 govern together, to

00:28:46.800 get back to the

00:28:48.200 basics of

00:28:48.960 governing together.

00:28:50.620 That's what needs

00:28:51.500 to happen.

00:28:52.240 I mean, I think

00:28:53.060 in some ways, I'm

00:28:55.140 really offended that

00:28:55.980 the President of

00:28:56.580 the United States

00:28:57.240 did not give a

00:28:58.900 heads up to

00:28:59.560 Congress on this

00:29:01.400 military strike that

00:29:02.480 took place in

00:29:03.140 Iran.

00:29:03.480 that's a

00:29:05.740 responsibility of

00:29:06.780 the President to

00:29:07.480 be able to

00:29:08.160 inform the

00:29:08.740 Congress, both

00:29:09.660 Republicans and

00:29:10.520 Democrats, the

00:29:11.520 gang of eight, as

00:29:13.260 to what's happening

00:29:14.200 with regards to

00:29:14.960 our national

00:29:15.440 security.

00:29:16.540 Commander-in-Chief is

00:29:17.500 deploying our men

00:29:18.380 and women into

00:29:19.460 harm's way.

00:29:20.860 He's got to be

00:29:21.860 willing to make

00:29:23.160 sure that both

00:29:24.560 Republicans and

00:29:25.320 Democrats on the

00:29:26.180 Hill are aware

00:29:27.660 of what is

00:29:30.200 happening.

00:29:30.620 Unfortunately, that

00:29:32.960 didn't take place,

00:29:33.980 and I think it's

00:29:34.740 a real slap in

00:29:36.900 the face to

00:29:38.380 how our

00:29:39.220 democracy should

00:29:40.360 function.

00:29:41.200 You know,

00:29:41.920 interestingly, Mr.

00:29:43.500 Secretary, I can

00:29:44.280 attest to that just

00:29:45.300 on a personal

00:29:45.820 basis because I

00:29:46.580 was speaking at

00:29:48.140 an event.

00:29:48.720 I was with

00:29:49.900 Minority Leader

00:29:51.700 Jeffries, and

00:29:53.760 as he was

00:29:55.380 walking out of

00:29:56.420 the event, we

00:29:58.120 all started to

00:29:59.260 see on

00:30:00.220 our cell

00:30:00.620 phones what

00:30:01.800 had just

00:30:02.180 occurred.

00:30:03.260 We spent an

00:30:04.260 hour and a

00:30:04.640 half at that

00:30:05.600 event talking

00:30:07.040 about every

00:30:07.780 conceivable

00:30:08.380 issue, and

00:30:10.360 here it was

00:30:11.460 happening in

00:30:12.040 real time, and

00:30:13.920 the future

00:30:14.720 Speaker of the

00:30:16.160 House of

00:30:16.460 Representatives, to

00:30:17.260 your point, was

00:30:17.860 not even, they

00:30:18.840 didn't have me

00:30:19.220 the accuracy of a

00:30:20.240 heads up.

00:30:20.660 But I'm curious

00:30:21.960 on that, and

00:30:23.820 going back just

00:30:24.540 briefly, and I

00:30:25.080 want to move

00:30:25.800 off it, but I

00:30:26.680 am fascinated.

00:30:27.360 I mean, we

00:30:28.760 talk about this

00:30:29.580 dysfunction, we

00:30:30.380 talk about

00:30:31.020 Tip O'Neill and

00:30:31.820 all the wonderful

00:30:33.860 stories of O'Neill

00:30:34.920 and Reagan working

00:30:36.260 together across their

00:30:37.000 differences, you've

00:30:37.780 amplified that as

00:30:39.300 relates to even

00:30:40.000 Clinton and

00:30:40.720 Gingrich.

00:30:41.620 But was there a

00:30:42.220 moment, was that

00:30:43.180 moment, despite the

00:30:44.220 fact that they were

00:30:45.320 able to persevere,

00:30:46.240 and those two

00:30:47.000 personalities, remarkable

00:30:48.220 personalities, historic

00:30:49.500 personalities, Clinton

00:30:50.740 and Gingrich, were

00:30:52.320 able to finally find

00:30:53.560 some common ground?

00:30:54.380 Was that the

00:30:54.920 beginning of the

00:30:55.480 end, though?

00:30:56.420 I mean, do you

00:30:57.360 mark that as a

00:30:58.820 moment where things

00:31:00.000 did radically

00:31:01.140 change, the

00:31:01.880 government shut

00:31:02.480 down, the

00:31:03.300 approach Gingrich

00:31:04.080 had, initial

00:31:05.120 approach, in terms

00:31:06.260 of his relationship

00:31:07.380 with the presidency

00:31:08.000 and the

00:31:08.340 executive?

00:31:08.820 There's no

00:31:09.220 question, and I've

00:31:10.360 told Newt this

00:31:11.120 directly, I said

00:31:12.360 that what

00:31:15.020 happened was

00:31:16.260 that Newt was

00:31:21.040 really struggling

00:31:21.880 to try to get

00:31:22.680 the Republicans in

00:31:23.980 power, and he

00:31:25.860 was willing to

00:31:26.740 undermine the

00:31:27.420 institution of

00:31:29.640 the House of

00:31:30.160 Representatives in

00:31:30.940 the Congress in

00:31:32.340 order to get that

00:31:33.060 done.

00:31:33.440 He actually

00:31:33.940 basically undercut

00:31:35.400 almost members in

00:31:37.660 his own party in

00:31:39.720 order to be able to

00:31:40.720 do that, and it

00:31:41.440 was kind of a real

00:31:42.240 cutthroat approach

00:31:43.280 to politics, and

00:31:46.240 it created some

00:31:47.640 bad feelings, and

00:31:48.740 look, Democrats

00:31:50.400 made their

00:31:51.100 mistakes as well,

00:31:52.060 and when

00:31:54.880 both sides

00:31:57.760 decided that

00:31:59.460 rather than

00:32:00.040 working together,

00:32:00.820 they would get

00:32:01.440 into their own

00:32:02.080 trenches and

00:32:02.820 basically throw

00:32:03.700 grenades at one

00:32:04.860 another, that

00:32:07.400 really was the

00:32:08.260 beginning of the

00:32:08.980 end in terms of

00:32:11.400 governing.

00:32:12.100 I mean, the

00:32:13.640 problem is for the

00:32:14.620 last 20 years, I

00:32:16.140 tell the students at

00:32:17.920 the Panetta Institute

00:32:18.740 that in a

00:32:19.980 democracy, we

00:32:20.800 govern either by

00:32:21.780 leadership or by

00:32:22.840 crisis.

00:32:24.400 If leadership is

00:32:25.740 there and willing

00:32:26.320 to make tough

00:32:26.980 decisions and

00:32:27.860 basically reach

00:32:28.760 across and try to

00:32:30.240 develop consensus

00:32:31.120 and compromise, we

00:32:32.500 can avoid crisis.

00:32:34.240 But if that

00:32:35.120 leadership isn't

00:32:36.040 there, then we'll

00:32:36.800 govern by crisis, and

00:32:38.400 I have to tell you

00:32:39.280 for the last 20 or

00:32:40.740 25 years in

00:32:41.720 Washington, they've

00:32:42.680 largely been

00:32:43.740 governing by crisis,

00:32:45.180 and that undermines

00:32:47.160 trust in our basic

00:32:48.780 system of governing.

00:32:50.300 And that's why, very

00:32:51.680 frankly, Washington is

00:32:53.560 so dysfunctional right

00:32:54.680 now.

00:32:58.940 I know a lot of

00:33:00.160 cops, and they get

00:33:01.220 asked all the time,

00:33:02.720 have you ever had to

00:33:03.700 shoot your gun?

00:33:06.020 Sometimes the answer

00:33:07.080 is yes.

00:33:08.120 But there's a

00:33:09.280 company dedicated to

00:33:10.260 a future where the

00:33:11.600 answer will always be

00:33:13.080 no.

00:33:13.820 Across the country,

00:33:15.400 cops called this

00:33:16.300 taser the revolution.

00:33:18.220 But not everyone was

00:33:19.140 convinced it was that

00:33:20.060 simple.

00:33:20.800 Cops believed

00:33:21.560 everything that

00:33:22.840 taser told them.

00:33:24.000 From Lava for Good

00:33:24.880 and the team that

00:33:25.480 brought you Bone

00:33:26.040 Valley, comes a

00:33:27.060 story about what

00:33:27.980 happened when a

00:33:28.720 multi-billion dollar

00:33:29.580 company dedicated

00:33:30.860 itself to one

00:33:32.040 visionary mission.

00:33:34.240 This is Absolute

00:33:35.200 Season 1, Taser

00:33:36.760 Incorporated.

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00:33:40.780 there, and it's

00:33:42.040 bad.

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00:33:46.660 Listen to new

00:33:47.220 episodes of

00:33:47.920 Absolute Season

00:33:48.940 1, Taser

00:33:49.980 Incorporated, on

00:33:51.080 the iHeartRadio app,

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00:34:03.960 The summer of 1993

00:34:09.300 was one of the best

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00:34:11.240 I'm journalist Jeff

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00:34:14.360 We were interns at

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00:35:07.460 Over the past six

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00:37:33.360 on the Black

00:37:33.980 Effect Podcast Network.

00:37:35.120 The iHeartRadio app,

00:37:36.200 Apple Podcasts, or

00:37:37.200 wherever you go to

00:37:37.920 find your podcast.

00:37:38.740 You know, in your

00:37:42.920 remarkable career, and

00:37:44.080 spans quite literally

00:37:45.940 over half a century

00:37:46.960 and continues to this

00:37:48.000 day at the Panetta

00:37:49.740 Institute, you know,

00:37:52.000 you served in many

00:37:53.480 different roles.

00:37:54.020 Of course, we reflect

00:37:55.140 on the last time we

00:37:56.720 had a balanced budget

00:37:57.580 and even a surplus

00:37:58.380 under your tutelage

00:37:59.880 and stewardship as

00:38:01.300 chief of staff in the

00:38:02.120 Clinton administration.

00:38:02.880 But you went on to

00:38:03.960 serve in other roles

00:38:05.280 and as I've

00:38:06.200 referenced a moment

00:38:06.920 ago from OMB to

00:38:08.280 obviously Secretary of

00:38:09.460 Defense and CIA

00:38:11.600 director.

00:38:12.560 I'm curious, your

00:38:13.940 reflection, you know,

00:38:14.880 there's been, it

00:38:15.860 seems to me, an

00:38:17.660 assault on knowledge,

00:38:18.880 particularly at West

00:38:19.500 Point.

00:38:20.000 Recently, there was

00:38:20.860 reports, not

00:38:22.260 specific, that books

00:38:23.940 are being banned.

00:38:25.720 Baldwin, you know,

00:38:27.040 other books, well-known

00:38:29.160 authors, historic

00:38:30.820 facts that appear to

00:38:32.760 be being censored.

00:38:35.140 West Point, my gosh,

00:38:36.520 these are the best of

00:38:38.060 the best, these

00:38:39.500 remarkable young

00:38:40.300 cadets.

00:38:40.800 And I'm just curious,

00:38:42.200 you know, you were

00:38:42.660 part of the sort of

00:38:44.160 pulling back and

00:38:44.960 don't ask, don't tell

00:38:45.860 women in the military

00:38:48.680 and being able to

00:38:50.020 lead.

00:38:50.740 You moved in a very

00:38:51.940 different direction in

00:38:53.660 your leadership roles.

00:38:54.660 What's your reflection of

00:38:55.580 where we are now in

00:38:56.880 this sort of assault

00:38:57.980 on all things,

00:38:59.700 quote-unquote,

00:39:00.240 wokeness or DEI or

00:39:01.940 even on historic

00:39:03.360 facts?

00:39:06.180 Well, you know,

00:39:07.400 Gavin, I'm the son

00:39:09.900 of immigrants,

00:39:11.000 Italian immigrants

00:39:13.080 who came to this

00:39:14.140 country like millions

00:39:15.020 of others.

00:39:17.360 And I can remember

00:39:20.620 asking my dad,

00:39:22.000 why did he come all

00:39:24.720 of that distance to

00:39:25.640 come to a strange

00:39:26.400 land?

00:39:26.820 And I never forgot

00:39:28.460 his answer, which

00:39:29.320 was that my mother

00:39:30.680 and he believed

00:39:31.340 they could give

00:39:31.980 our children a

00:39:33.480 better life in this

00:39:34.360 country.

00:39:34.860 I think that's the

00:39:35.600 American dream, and

00:39:36.720 that's what we want

00:39:37.480 for our children.

00:39:40.580 And I think to get

00:39:42.180 there, we have to

00:39:43.140 embrace our freedoms,

00:39:44.760 not destroy our

00:39:46.320 freedoms, not destroy

00:39:47.600 our openness, not

00:39:49.420 destroy our ability

00:39:50.840 to learn from one

00:39:51.960 another.

00:39:52.320 We may not like what

00:39:54.380 others say, but the

00:39:55.900 ability to listen, the

00:39:57.740 ability to have a

00:39:58.940 say, the ability to

00:40:00.840 enjoy different

00:40:02.500 points of view is

00:40:04.300 what our freedom, what

00:40:06.220 the American dream is

00:40:07.260 all about.

00:40:08.600 I had, you know,

00:40:10.360 young people who

00:40:13.540 wanted to serve in the

00:40:15.540 military.

00:40:16.360 That's a good thing.

00:40:17.800 We ought to give

00:40:19.180 them that opportunity

00:40:20.200 to serve.

00:40:21.600 And that's what I

00:40:22.360 tried to do as

00:40:23.160 secretary.

00:40:24.840 You know, regardless

00:40:26.400 of their race or

00:40:28.300 color or creed or

00:40:29.620 sexual preference, the

00:40:31.660 fact is they wanted

00:40:33.600 to serve this

00:40:34.380 country.

00:40:34.840 And you know what?

00:40:35.520 They did a damn

00:40:36.440 good job serving this

00:40:38.100 country.

00:40:38.420 And that's true for

00:40:40.760 our men and women in

00:40:42.500 our academies, whether

00:40:43.560 it's West Point or

00:40:44.540 Annapolis or others.

00:40:47.360 Their ability to

00:40:49.120 embrace everyone who

00:40:50.560 wants to serve, to

00:40:52.680 embrace our freedom,

00:40:54.300 to embrace openness,

00:40:55.700 to embrace what our

00:40:56.580 society is all about,

00:40:58.400 to embrace what

00:40:59.180 democracy is all about.

00:41:00.620 These are young people

00:41:01.580 who are going to put

00:41:02.040 their lives on the

00:41:02.900 line to basically

00:41:04.620 protect our country.

00:41:05.740 They need to know

00:41:09.480 the importance of

00:41:11.420 why they're going to

00:41:12.280 fight and die for

00:41:13.940 their country.

00:41:15.200 And that's why they

00:41:16.540 need to be exposed

00:41:18.000 to all kinds of

00:41:19.740 views.

00:41:20.760 And that's what the

00:41:22.020 academy has done in

00:41:23.000 the past.

00:41:24.020 I regret that they're

00:41:25.760 getting all worked up

00:41:26.940 about their approach

00:41:29.040 now with regards to

00:41:30.360 books and what have

00:41:31.440 you.

00:41:31.840 I mean, this is a

00:41:32.840 throwback to, you

00:41:34.800 know, the age of

00:41:35.520 witches in Salem, for

00:41:36.740 God's sake.

00:41:38.240 So it really is, it

00:41:40.240 really is important.

00:41:41.460 And listen, we'll get

00:41:42.600 beyond this.

00:41:43.780 I do not consider this

00:41:45.280 any kind of permanent

00:41:46.420 phase that's going to

00:41:47.900 take place.

00:41:48.600 I think this is just a

00:41:50.320 moment in time.

00:41:51.620 And we've seen many of

00:41:53.000 those in 250 years.

00:41:54.960 This is a moment in

00:41:56.000 time.

00:41:56.840 But ultimately, we

00:41:58.180 are going to get back

00:41:59.820 to the values of our

00:42:01.500 democracy that made us

00:42:03.300 strong.

00:42:03.700 There is no other

00:42:05.540 way that this country

00:42:07.000 can survive.

00:42:08.740 And I appreciate that

00:42:09.940 optimism.

00:42:10.560 I imagine others

00:42:11.200 listening are that

00:42:13.140 warms their heart.

00:42:14.600 But what I mean, and I

00:42:16.140 don't mean to be

00:42:16.760 modeling.

00:42:17.260 Just let me stress test

00:42:18.540 it a little bit.

00:42:19.560 You know, I challenge

00:42:20.480 you on that.

00:42:21.020 I mean, it's been an

00:42:22.180 extraordinary few

00:42:23.860 months, this

00:42:24.660 administration.

00:42:25.300 And I, you know, you

00:42:27.720 served it as an OMB

00:42:29.420 director.

00:42:30.340 You've got a new one in

00:42:31.320 there.

00:42:31.900 Now that, boy, these

00:42:34.280 guys were, they wound

00:42:35.660 up.

00:42:36.320 They were ready to go.

00:42:37.440 This 2025 project, there

00:42:40.440 was a plan.

00:42:41.780 They're executing a plan.

00:42:43.580 I mean, I don't imagine,

00:42:45.200 I appreciate all the work

00:42:46.200 you did as OMB

00:42:47.600 director, but I'm not

00:42:49.200 sure you had an agenda

00:42:50.080 that was this thick and

00:42:52.040 this prescriptive and laid

00:42:53.680 out that goes to

00:42:55.280 assault these

00:42:56.260 institutions, assault

00:42:57.560 our norms and

00:43:01.100 traditions.

00:43:03.340 Why do you remain so

00:43:05.300 confident that we can

00:43:07.320 withstand?

00:43:07.900 We acknowledge there's

00:43:08.800 only one other branch of

00:43:10.240 government left, the

00:43:11.240 courts at the moment,

00:43:13.200 and obviously the court

00:43:14.420 of public opinion.

00:43:15.320 Perhaps that may be the

00:43:16.480 answer.

00:43:16.920 You know, look, there's

00:43:18.400 no question there's a

00:43:19.220 lot of damage being

00:43:20.100 done.

00:43:20.700 I think we're seeing

00:43:21.860 that every day.

00:43:22.680 What's happening with

00:43:23.460 immigrants, what's

00:43:24.180 happening with the

00:43:25.520 rule of law, what's

00:43:26.560 happening with funding,

00:43:28.680 what's happening with

00:43:30.380 federal civil servants,

00:43:32.800 there's just an awful lot

00:43:34.180 of damage that is being

00:43:36.120 done.

00:43:37.260 But, you know, I

00:43:39.900 really believe, I

00:43:44.140 guess, this goes to the

00:43:46.460 heart of why I feel the

00:43:47.740 way I do, because, you

00:43:49.660 know, in my 50 years, I've

00:43:52.060 witnessed a lot of

00:43:53.360 different people come

00:43:54.200 into office, a lot of

00:43:55.360 different views that

00:43:56.240 they brought in.

00:43:57.480 But there were, you

00:43:58.780 know, for 80 years, going

00:44:00.260 back to World War II,

00:44:03.940 whether a president was

00:44:05.460 Republican or Democrat,

00:44:06.620 there were some

00:44:07.380 fundamental values that

00:44:10.460 every one of them had

00:44:12.300 and shared.

00:44:14.180 and that was not only, you

00:44:16.940 know, American world

00:44:17.820 leadership, they also

00:44:20.280 respected the values of

00:44:22.160 our democracy.

00:44:24.900 They also made very

00:44:27.800 clear that this country was

00:44:31.380 going to respect the rule of

00:44:33.340 law in our Constitution.

00:44:35.000 They also made very

00:44:38.200 clear that we would

00:44:40.120 work through our

00:44:43.040 democracy in order to

00:44:44.620 make change.

00:44:45.540 Every president wants to

00:44:46.680 make change.

00:44:47.800 But most presidents make

00:44:49.560 change by working through

00:44:51.420 our Constitution and

00:44:53.060 through our democracy.

00:44:54.300 Look, Bill Clinton, when he

00:44:56.220 became president of the

00:44:57.000 United States, made the

00:44:58.040 decision that we were

00:44:59.720 going to try to achieve

00:45:01.460 almost $500 billion in

00:45:03.040 deficit reduction.

00:45:04.840 But we did that through

00:45:06.120 the budget.

00:45:07.040 I sat down with the

00:45:08.340 president.

00:45:08.960 We walked through the

00:45:10.040 budget.

00:45:10.840 He made decisions about

00:45:12.580 what programs ought to be

00:45:14.160 funded, what programs

00:45:15.340 ought to be cut.

00:45:16.720 And we put that into a

00:45:18.320 budget, sent it to the

00:45:19.480 Congress.

00:45:20.920 That's the way you're

00:45:21.880 supposed to do it.

00:45:23.380 And we were successful.

00:45:25.260 We passed that budget.

00:45:28.160 And yes, you know, we

00:45:29.620 were able to achieve $500

00:45:31.020 billion in deficit

00:45:31.920 reduction.

00:45:32.400 But we did it pursuant to

00:45:34.660 the law and pursuant to

00:45:36.680 the Constitution.

00:45:38.800 Why this president comes

00:45:40.520 in and throws all of that

00:45:42.300 out the window, gets

00:45:43.860 Doge, gets Elon Musk,

00:45:46.480 gets whoever else to

00:45:48.580 suddenly engage in this

00:45:50.280 kind of vigilante approach

00:45:52.040 to democracy, basically

00:45:54.780 undermines our democracy.

00:45:56.760 Doesn't strengthen our

00:45:57.980 democracy.

00:45:58.760 It undermines it.

00:45:59.760 You undermine the power of

00:46:01.860 the Congress, which has the

00:46:03.340 power of the purse under a

00:46:05.120 Constitution.

00:46:06.040 It's the Congress that

00:46:07.280 decides what is funded and

00:46:10.120 what programs are protected.

00:46:12.540 Not a group of

00:46:15.020 vigilantes.

00:46:16.880 So, look, the courts have

00:46:20.020 been finding that that is the

00:46:21.620 case time and time again.

00:46:23.800 I really do believe that

00:46:27.320 ultimately the American people

00:46:28.820 do not want

00:46:30.620 a king

00:46:31.940 as president.

00:46:34.060 They want

00:46:34.840 a president who

00:46:36.420 understands

00:46:37.360 that his oath

00:46:38.840 to the Constitution

00:46:40.200 has to come first.

00:46:42.420 That's where the American people

00:46:44.000 are at.

00:46:45.080 And yeah,

00:46:46.260 you know, presidents can

00:46:47.380 say or do whatever the hell

00:46:48.920 they want.

00:46:49.420 But ultimately,

00:46:50.920 it's the American people

00:46:52.580 who rule in this country.

00:46:54.380 And I honestly believe

00:46:55.900 that whether they're living

00:46:56.820 in a red state

00:46:57.660 or a blue state,

00:46:58.700 they believe

00:47:00.000 in American values

00:47:01.700 and they believe

00:47:02.780 in the rule of law

00:47:03.800 and they believe

00:47:04.860 in the Constitution.

00:47:06.260 That's why this country

00:47:07.340 is going to survive.

00:47:09.200 I love it.

00:47:09.640 I love it.

00:47:10.220 I'm going to bookmark that.

00:47:11.560 That's a point of optimism.

00:47:12.800 I also want to address

00:47:19.460 the Tonys.

00:47:21.840 On a recent episode

00:47:23.020 of Checking In

00:47:23.820 with Michelle Williams,

00:47:24.880 I open up about

00:47:25.900 feeling snubbed

00:47:26.880 by the Tony Awards.

00:47:28.420 Do I?

00:47:29.580 I was never mad.

00:47:31.280 I was disappointed

00:47:32.300 because I had high hopes.

00:47:34.480 To hear this and more

00:47:35.780 on disappointment

00:47:36.860 and protecting your peace,

00:47:38.600 listen to Checking In

00:47:39.540 with Michelle Williams

00:47:40.460 from the Black Effect

00:47:41.640 podcast network

00:47:42.760 on the iHeartRadio app,

00:47:44.660 Apple Podcasts,

00:47:45.700 or wherever you get

00:47:46.860 your podcasts.

00:47:48.400 We are telling

00:47:50.100 our scientists today

00:47:51.460 we have disdain

00:47:53.060 for your expertise.

00:47:54.700 And then you have

00:47:55.140 China as an exception

00:47:55.940 saying actually we're

00:47:56.620 going to invest

00:47:56.980 a trillion dollars

00:47:57.840 in new science.

00:47:59.260 You heard that right.

00:48:00.220 While the U.S.

00:48:00.760 is slashing science budgets,

00:48:02.300 China is doubling down.

00:48:03.520 This means here

00:48:03.940 in the United States,

00:48:04.900 less innovation,

00:48:05.940 fewer breakthroughs,

00:48:06.880 and falling behind

00:48:07.560 on the global stage.

00:48:08.760 This week on Dope Labs,

00:48:10.120 Chelsea Clinton breaks down

00:48:11.320 what these cuts really mean.

00:48:12.760 Listen to Dope Labs

00:48:13.680 on the iHeartRadio app,

00:48:15.140 Apple Podcasts,

00:48:16.160 or wherever you get

00:48:16.940 your podcasts.

00:48:17.660 I know a lot of cops.

00:48:20.260 They get asked all the time,

00:48:22.080 have you ever had

00:48:22.700 to shoot your gun?

00:48:23.900 Sometimes the answer

00:48:24.780 is yes.

00:48:25.860 But there's a company

00:48:27.160 dedicated to a future

00:48:28.420 where the answer

00:48:29.340 will always be no.

00:48:31.760 This is Absolute Season 1,

00:48:33.980 Taser Incorporated.

00:48:35.300 I get right back there

00:48:36.840 and it's bad.

00:48:38.720 Listen to Absolute Season 1,

00:48:40.780 Taser Incorporated,

00:48:42.080 on the iHeartRadio app,

00:48:43.560 Apple Podcasts,

00:48:44.580 or wherever you get

00:48:45.480 your podcasts.

00:48:48.080 The OGs of Uncensored Motherhood

00:48:50.260 are back and badder than ever.

00:48:52.080 I'm Erica.

00:48:52.720 And I'm Mila.

00:48:53.480 And we're the hosts

00:48:54.200 of the Good Moms,

00:48:55.040 Bad Choices podcast,

00:48:56.320 brought to you by

00:48:57.060 the Black Effect Podcast Network

00:48:58.540 every Wednesday.

00:48:59.760 Yeah, we're moms,

00:49:00.980 but not your mommy.

00:49:02.180 Historically,

00:49:02.800 men talk too much.

00:49:04.340 And women have quietly listened.

00:49:05.940 And all that stops here.

00:49:07.360 If you like witty women,

00:49:08.420 then this is your tribe.

00:49:09.440 Listen to the Good Moms,

00:49:10.320 Bad Choices podcast

00:49:11.220 every Wednesday

00:49:12.260 on the Black Effect Podcast Network,

00:49:14.380 the iHeartRadio app,

00:49:15.520 Apple Podcasts,

00:49:16.440 or wherever you go

00:49:17.300 to find your podcasts.

00:49:18.860 Our iHeartRadio Music Festival,

00:49:21.600 presented by Capital One,

00:49:23.080 is coming back to Las Vegas.

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00:49:50.880 This is an iHeart Podcast.

This is Gavin Newsom - July 01, 2025

And, This is Secretary Leon Panetta

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