00:00:59.020There are thousands of podcasts that can tell you how to better yourself.
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00:06:54.440And I know what that's like, because I raised my kid as a single mom. So people are, they feel hopeful about those things. At the same time, of course, people are going into debt because they have to fill their cars up with gas. And sometimes they don't live right close to where they work.
00:07:14.260So a lot of folks commute, you know, 10 to, you know, 60 miles sometimes one way to go to work.
00:07:23.180And the gas, you know, the price of gas, as you know, it's worse in California, but it's bad here, too.
00:07:31.300And so at the same time, people are hopeful.
00:07:34.520They're also worried about the future.
00:07:37.520I want to make sure that our kids have opportunities here, that families can stay here, raise their families here.
00:07:44.920And so we'll just keep working toward that.
00:08:36.660That doesn't suggest to be the experience in New Mexico.
00:08:39.240No, because as you know, our little state of New Mexico doesn't set the gas prices, right? It's kind of out of our hands that way. And so I want to make sure that New Mexico families can keep money in their pockets in other ways, right?
00:08:57.860enhancing the child tax credit, enhancing the working families tax credit. And I know that,
00:09:04.520yes, we have gas and oil here in New Mexico, but we also have over 300 days of sun per year. We
00:09:11.500have abundance of wind. We have geothermal in our state. So moving that clean energy transition
00:09:19.100forward as much as possible, we want to get to net zero by 2050. I think that will also
00:09:26.620save people utility, money on utility costs. So, you know, we, I feel like we can do both.
00:09:36.660I love that. And the current governor and sort of in the spirit that I was blessed to take the
00:09:43.060baton from Governor Brown that did so much good work on low carbon green growth. I've been out
00:09:49.580and know your governor, the current governor, that you'll be stepping into her shoes on this
00:09:56.420has been a leader nationally and internationally on changing the way we produce and consume energy.
00:10:02.000And so I have all the expectations. You'll be a big part of that as well. I'm curious
00:10:06.380if people have expectations about the gas tax. I've been traveling around and I was just with
00:10:13.960Governor Healy in Massachusetts. She was there promoting the gas tax. Her legislature actually
00:10:19.900pushed back against it. There was pressure here in California. I have strong opinions about what
00:10:26.180it means or what it doesn't mean. But I'm curious, have you leaned into that conversation of whether
00:10:31.640or not to suspend the gas tax in New Mexico? You know, we haven't talked about that. I really
00:10:40.340feel that we can help lower costs in so many other ways. We need to win the House. I mean,
00:10:47.980I will be honest with you, Governor, I'm hopeful about the U.S. Senate as well. But winning the
00:10:54.500the House, winning back the House, hopefully winning the Senate, it would put a tremendous
00:11:03.660amount of pressure on this administration to hopefully do the right thing. And so I think
00:11:12.720about that, right? I haven't had conversations about suspending the gas tax. I'd be happy to
00:11:23.880have any conversation with anyone who wants to move New Mexico forward. And so I'll just leave
00:11:28.940it at that. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And my hesitation is every effort to suspend the gas tax,
00:11:35.160not only did you lose critical infrastructure dollars as it relates to rebuilding our roads
00:11:39.700and bridges and the like, but there is no guarantee that that tax savings will actually
00:11:45.880inure to the benefit of the consumer. In fact, a lot of overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise
00:11:50.620that they just pocket the differential. And you've seen a lot of conservative state governors
00:11:55.460that have actually done it in the past, not promoting it today. And I think it's also
00:12:00.020interesting that Donald Trump himself is not promoting the suspension of the national gas
00:12:06.240tax, which I think says everything you need to know about that policy. I'm curious on other
00:12:11.640policies. Deb, you talk about your own life experience as a single mother. My mom was a
00:12:18.660single mom. And I appreciate she went back to school in her 40s as well to USF. And we always
00:12:26.800had a lot of people living with us. And we shared a roof with a lot of families that were transitioning
00:12:34.440in. She just worked hard to make ends meet, didn't complain, didn't explain, nothing more heroic than
00:12:40.960a single mom. And you said how that shaped so much of your consciousness as it relates to you being
00:12:46.520out in the campaign, Joel. Talk to me more about that, because you actually collected food stamps.
00:12:51.900You lived the life that so many of your constituents are living today and struggling
00:12:58.640with, and so you have a unique perspective. Tell us more a little bit about that.
00:13:03.100Absolutely. And I think my SOMA is 32 years old now, so it was that long ago that I was using
00:13:12.480WIC before I gave birth to Soma and after. I think you can use WIC for the first year and a half or
00:13:18.460something like that if your child's life. And I was able to use Medicaid for my prenatal care. I
00:13:27.220found a midwife who helped me to give birth to my daughter. So Medicaid, WIC, food stamps a little
00:13:35.340bit later on, but those safety net services that help so much, you know, I remember just sort of
00:13:43.900realizing that I needed to, you know, humble myself and walk into the SNAP office to apply
00:13:52.420for food stamps. And I wanted, I tried to get emergency food stamps. And when the, when the
00:14:00.640counselor came out and said that I didn't qualify I cried right there in her office um it's it's
00:14:08.000it's it's you know it's in a way embarrassing that you have to do that and then you you you
00:14:14.980know when you finally get yourself there and then you're told sorry you don't qualify it's
00:14:19.840it was really a devastating time of my life I eventually was able to access SNAP benefits and
00:14:26.420that helped me a tremendous amount with my kid, right? It's important to have healthy food around
00:14:32.760the house when you are raising a child. And I feel so strongly about that. It helps promote
00:14:40.320healthy communities. And with all the Medicaid cuts that are going to happen, so folks are going
00:14:46.020to have to drive further and further for their medical care. They just won't have it at all.
00:14:50.180they'll end up going to the emergency rooms. On top of that, not having healthy food.
00:14:56.840Trump is making New Mexicans sicker, poor and hungrier. So we, I mean, I, you know, I'm proposing
00:15:04.700a public option for our state because I want people to access affordable quality health care.
00:15:12.000And that will be one way they can have an insurance policy that they can afford. Because I believe
00:15:17.700very strongly the healthy communities will lower our health care costs. But yes, raising my child
00:15:24.580as a single mom, it was never easy. And sometimes you feel inadequate already, but you just keep
00:15:33.460working, right? You keep working because you know that there's a child that depends on you.
00:15:40.340And I just never stopped working. I couldn't afford child care, so I started my own business.
00:15:47.700I was in school half the time. You know, I was when I was in law school, I would bring my Soma to class with me if I had classes in the evening and send her downstairs to, you know, for any reception that was happening in the forum of the law school to, you know, fill her plate up with food.
00:16:07.940It was kind of like we were just doing whatever we needed to do. Right. And I say often on the campaign trail that it's expensive to be poor because when you have a dollar in your bank account and you know you need to put gas in your car, it's it's so it's just so hard.
00:23:43.680And I want, you know, I also want to inspire our next generation of land stewards.
00:23:49.920It's one of the things that I'm, and you've been, I mean, for those that don't know enough
00:23:55.740about your background, we'll talk a little bit more about your time as a fierce champion for
00:23:59.480open space, Secretary of Interior, what you did for national monuments, including in my home state
00:24:04.720here in California, where you're best in class. But one of the things that's interesting that,
00:24:10.180And I love this notion of outdoor learning.
00:24:12.740We started a number of years ago something called a parks pass at the library to provide free access to our parks.
00:24:21.340It's the number one checked out thing in the state public libraries, these free parks passes for families.
00:24:29.180And it's just one of those things that we should be promoting.
00:24:32.400Obviously, one of those things that you have been promoting in your formal role as the former secretary of interior.
00:24:39.580And I'm curious how that role is shaping your campaign, but also how that role will have shaped your time when you take that oath of office come this January.
00:24:53.240Well, people in New Mexico, they care deeply about our public lands.
00:24:59.620You know, Chaco Culture National Historical Park.
00:25:03.280When I was secretary, we were able to place a 10-mile buffer zone around that, a buffer zone against any extractive industries.
00:25:13.920You know, if there's a place to drill, there are places not to drill, and Chaco is one of those.
00:25:19.480And, you know, this administration is working overtime to remove protections for so many of our public lands, I'm sure, in California as well as here in New Mexico.
00:25:30.820And so it's like, I'm ready to fight against those things, right? If there's anything that unites Democrats and Republicans, it's our public lands, because we have hunting, fishing, people just want to go for hikes.
00:25:46.900And we have some really beautiful wilderness here. One of the last wild rivers in the country. Those are all things that make New Mexico what it is and, you know, a place to be proud of.
00:26:00.860So I'm ready to file lawsuits against the administration if they try to mess with New Mexico in that way, because I know what these places mean to the people who live here.
00:26:18.320And visitors come from around the world to go rock climbing and partake in those outdoor activities here.
00:26:25.880So I'm ready to fiercely protect our public lands.
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00:29:44.880It was like, I don't care what I'm being asked to do at Fox.
00:29:47.720I'm going to go get some reps and I'm going to learn it and love it and embrace it.
00:29:52.120He said, this group of people will never be in the same room as part of the same team ever again in your life.
00:29:59.240And it is your job to make sure that you enjoy the moment.
00:30:03.020You're proud of what you accomplish together.
00:30:05.860Listen to Whatever It Takes with Carly Lloyd and Jenny Taft on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:30:13.880As you've been doing for most of your career.
00:30:16.200By the way, that career also included time in Congress.
00:30:19.740And that time in Congress, you actually, and I think this is important for listeners and viewers, you produced real results.
00:30:27.240You were able to actually get bills signed by the president of the United States.
00:30:31.520And it's interesting if my timing works, and I'm correct, but you had also the privilege of implementing a number of the bills that you were able to pass as a congressional representative in New Mexico when you were the secretary of interior.
00:30:46.600Yes. I think I passed five bills into law, and they were all signed by President Trump.
00:30:53.820By the way, just that alone, we should just pause to consider the fact you were successful getting President Trump to sign your bills. That says a lot about your ability to get things done.
00:31:03.780Did he sign them today? I have no clue. But he signed them because they were bipartisan bills. And I know how to work across the aisle and get things done. And I'll do the same as the next governor of New Mexico.
00:31:16.200But yes, we signed into law. Two of those bills that were signed into law, I implemented as Secretary of the Interior and the Native American Business Incubators Act and the Not Invisible Act that went to missing and murdered indigenous people, which you know and understand is an important issue, even in California.
00:31:40.200California. So, look, I'm grateful for the opportunities I've had to be a leader in my
00:31:49.080state and in the country and to work hard to protect people, you know, vulnerable communities
00:31:56.620who really need people in leadership who care. I mean, that should be a prerequisite for anyone
00:32:03.800running for office is that you care about the people that you want to lead. And we see how
00:32:11.920that's really gone awry with this administration right now. One of the things, Deb, people seem to
00:32:20.520care a lot about, not just seem, do care a lot about the issues of data centers. And I assume
00:32:27.420New Mexico is not immune to that controversy, that debate either. Are you? Not at all. No,
00:32:34.820there's, I mean, I'm looking, Governor, to place a moratorium on day one on the building of large
00:32:41.780scale data centers, namely because we haven't come to an agreement as a state about how we should let
00:32:49.060these large entities consume any of our resources here. We're in a high desert, as I mentioned,
00:32:58.080during a climate crisis. We don't have water to spare. The water we have, we need it so people
00:33:05.260can live. We need it so we can grow our green chili and our other agriculture, the things that
00:33:12.340we're known for. And so, yes, we need to place a moratorium. The legislature needs to pass
00:33:21.080guardrails, if you will, accountability measures that these large data centers need to abide by.0.68
00:33:28.520No water, move our clean energy transition forward. They have to build their own clean
00:33:35.540energy, hire New Mexico workers, be transparent, you know, no NDAs between the company and elected
00:33:44.740officials, those kinds of things. People really want to know what's happening in their communities,
00:33:49.800and I can't blame them for that. You are also out front on the issue, when you brought up
00:33:56.280education, you talked about teachers living in suboptimal conditions. You talked about some of
00:34:02.020the good work that Luan has been doing, the current governor, as it relates to some of the support
00:34:08.260for teachers with children, child care, and also some of the early education.
00:34:13.060Some of the challenges we all face, we continue to face coming out of COVID is getting back to
00:34:17.360those pre-COVID numbers and addressing literacy issues, et cetera. The struggle in public
00:34:23.820education broadly, not unique. You're not immune in New Mexico either. What else? Just flesh out
00:34:30.120what people are hoping, what their expectations are from you, what you're focused on, uh, sort
00:34:34.680of building, uh, that scaffolding and continuing to, to invest more and, and, and produce more in
00:34:40.180terms of results in public education. Absolutely. So, um, I mean, look, first and foremost, kids
00:34:47.360need to read sooner. We need, you know, we have, we have thousands of reading coaches
00:34:52.740across New Mexico. I want thousands more and I want them in our public schools, helping kids to
00:34:58.740read. I feel that reading is best learned by children from another human being and not a
00:35:05.820computer or anything like that, right? And reading is a foundation of all learning. And so if we can
00:35:13.980help our kids to read sooner, they have the confidence they need to continue with their
00:35:19.980educational journey and be successful. That's all part of me, you know, giving kids opportunities.
00:35:27.920We want trades back into our schools in a big way.
00:35:30.440I want the Every Child Outdoors initiative.
00:35:32.920We also have, there was a big lawsuit here a while back.
00:35:38.060It was, it's referred to as the Yazzie Martinez lawsuit.
00:35:41.580And that was to champion disabled students, English as a second language learner students,
00:35:48.500Native American students, basically students from underrepresented communities who really
00:35:52.800needed our state to step up and help them get the education that they need and deserve so that
00:36:00.040they could be on par, you know, with everyone else who had more opportunities. And so I want
00:36:08.400that to get across the finish line. We have 23 Indian tribes here in New Mexico. There's, you
00:36:15.660know, like four different language stocks with various dialects. And we, I just feel we need to
00:36:23.000pay attention to those things as well, right? Native language revitalization, it was important
00:36:28.720to me when I was secretary, is important to President Biden. It's going to be important to
00:36:33.540me now. And that I want to work hard to make sure that we have a plan, that that lawsuit and the,
00:36:42.680you know, the judge's decision can help folks from those communities, the plaintiffs, if you will,
00:36:50.220to feel confident about their children's educational opportunities.
00:36:55.200And you've been a fierce champion, I know, firsthand on all of that, to your point,
00:37:00.460just in terms of the interactions we had over the course last few years as you served in the
00:37:06.740Biden administration. By the way, I mean, as you know, I take a backseat to few,
00:37:12.680or none in terms of my defense of Joe Biden and his tenure and what I thought was a masterclass
00:37:20.320of policymaking. And candidly, I am often disappointed by members of our party that
00:37:26.780sometimes are a little dismissive of some of those accomplishments. And it's a way of crediting
00:37:31.920your time and tenure is there as well as a member of that administration. Has the issue of Joe Biden
00:37:38.620played any role in this election? Or are people, maybe your opponent in this race is bringing up
00:37:44.800time or tenure in the Biden administration, are people not falling prey to Trump, continuing to
00:37:50.720point fingers and blaming things on an administration that left almost two years ago?
00:37:56.620Exactly. You know, I haven't come across a lot of folks who have, you know, raised this or tried
00:38:03.920to use it against me. I mean, the bottom line is I have a record of accomplishment in the
00:38:09.860Department of the Interior. The record of accomplishment is because I worked very hard
00:38:16.480to live up to the president's agenda. All of those millions of acres of land that we conserved
00:38:25.680all across the country so that we could take animals off the endangered species list so that
00:38:31.960we could help ensure that ecosystems were thriving so that vulnerable species could
00:46:14.960They would blow past those laws and blow past the respect that they should have for a sovereign government here in New Mexico.
00:46:23.700So I'm going to continue to, of course, do the best I can and make sure that those communities have the help that they need to know their rights and to have the legal representation when they need it.
00:46:35.500All very familiar. And by the way, I can attest to your assertion that they will blow past. I signed the first masking bill and ID and they've been challenged and they continue to, to your point, blow past any sovereignty in the context of treating this ICE agents as we do.
00:46:57.500the same way we treat any law enforcement agency, which is you show your face, you show your badge,
00:47:03.600you show your name, ID number, you shouldn't be ashamed. And yet these guys are still running
00:47:09.560around completely anonymous, seemingly holding an oath of office to Donald Trump, not the
00:47:15.040Constitution of the United States. Though you brought up the issue of public safety. I was
00:47:19.460talking to Governor Grisham about a year ago. We were talking about National Guard, the abuse of
00:47:25.200the National Guard by the Trump administration, but the strategic use of our National Guard in
00:47:30.540other contexts. She took some criticism. She also was praised in some camps, as is the case,
00:47:41.460for the utilization of the Guard a little bit in terms of trying to do some interdiction
00:47:45.120with, not to, members of the community and law enforcement to address some of the quality of
00:47:51.780issues, crime issues, drug abuse issues. I think primarily in and around the Albuquerque area,
00:47:57.040if my recollection serves, though that may not be completely accurate. Give me a sense of where
00:48:02.100public safety stacks now and what your approach would be in that context of addressing what we're
00:48:09.240all struggling with, which is quality of life and the ravages of drug and drug addiction,
00:48:13.740issues around behavioral health, byproduct of poverty, homelessness, and the like.
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00:52:03.860So public safety is among my top four priority issues.
00:52:12.100And I'll tell you one of the things, the fentanyl crisis is rampant here.
00:52:20.380And, you know, at one point, the DEA, you know, loosed 150,000 doses of fentanyl to try to, you know, catch the drug traffickers.
00:52:30.260Because it backfired and it was really a terrible thing that happened here in our state.
00:52:36.320And I believe the governor and the attorney general are taking care of that.
00:52:41.540But for me, we need to address the substance use crisis with more rehab centers, more behavioral health dollars.
00:52:55.420One of the things I want to do is open an office of community safety.
00:53:00.260And we want law enforcement to focus on crime. Law enforcement should be focused on getting
00:53:07.060violent criminals and illegal drugs off our streets, getting to the root causes of crime.
00:53:12.460We need to help law enforcement to focus their energy on those things and leave the, you know,
00:53:21.080the issues that require behavioral health professionals, social workers. You know,
00:53:27.340there's a difference between people on a street corner suffering in some way in need of services
00:53:33.960that who aren't committing crimes. Sadly, a lot of the public doesn't know the difference. So they
00:53:40.560will, you know, they'll summon law enforcement to a situation that somebody just really needs to have
00:53:47.780services. And so I really want to keep law enforcement focused on crime. And we need to
00:53:56.000increase our availability to address these behavioral health and social issues with
00:54:03.940professionals that, you know, that can help a person or the individual to get the services
00:54:11.420that they need. I want more rehab centers. I want more people with the opportunity to live sober
00:54:18.540lives. And it can be done. I know this for a fact, because I've experienced it. And so I feel
00:54:28.900like, you know, we during my primary, I went to a rehab center. It's a sober living center. And
00:54:38.660they they teach people more than just getting sober, they help them to, you know, they give
00:54:44.260them classes, they learn to find a job and, and all these other things. We went there during my
00:54:52.480primary election, we walked about 30 residents across the street to early vote all together.
00:55:00.580And it was, it was really amazing, right? People felt they were adults, they'd never voted before
00:55:09.520in their entire lives. I want people to feel like they're part of a community. And often,
00:55:15.840substance use alienates people. And then, you know, pretty soon, they don't feel like they're
00:55:23.620part of the society. But we're, you know, I want us all to feel like we're part of a community here.
00:55:29.840And I think we could do so much better helping people to find the lives that they really want
00:55:36.240to live. It takes a lot of courage for you to be so out front in terms of your own journey on that.
00:55:42.820And I know you've been very public in sharing that, which is extraordinary. One of the things
00:55:48.820that I'm mindful, as you say, early voting's underway. Last day, the election ends on November
00:55:54.8803rd. The election is today. It's tomorrow. It's this weekend and the next week. Encouraging
00:56:01.580everybody out there to get those votes in early and win by damn margins that Donald Trump can't0.97
00:56:08.300touch or cast any aspersions or try to cheat and steal these elections. But I'd be remiss in0.96
00:56:14.540closing because I'm in the similar circumstance that your governor is in. And that is we have
00:56:19.880friends that are nominees in our respective states that are running for our office.
00:56:25.080and you have a hard job because you want to argue against the status quo in many respects.
00:56:32.180But I imagine you also want to be respectful to the person who's currently in office and not
00:56:36.320take cheap shots. And so it's always interesting. I had to navigate this when I ran for this office
00:56:41.700and Jerry Brown was in office. And I know how sensitive we can be, these incumbents.
00:56:46.060So I say this with love and appreciation and deep respect. So how do you navigate?
00:56:51.540I'm just curious, and it's an unfair question. You don't have to take the bait.
00:56:54.460But how do you navigate, you know, promoting change, addressing gaps, but doing it in a way that also doesn't trample on your friend who wants to be there for you after you get elected?
00:57:10.000Absolutely. And thank you for the question.
00:57:12.720So I truly have an immense amount of respect for Governor Lujan Grisham.
00:57:36.540When she came into office, almost immediately, the pandemic hit.
00:57:42.960She had just unprecedented pressure about the COVID pandemic.
00:57:49.540And then we have these really terrible wildland fires that were essentially started by the U.S. government, right?
00:57:59.000They were doing controlled burns that got out of hand.
00:58:02.300And so Governor Lujan Grisham had to deal with two monumental crises essentially all across our state and for extended periods of time.
00:58:14.920And so I understand, I'm coming into, you know, the tail end of a really horrible, you know, presidential run that is cruel and vicious and the whole nine yards.
00:58:33.060So we're serving in different eras, right?
00:58:36.100We have different, we're going to have different jobs in the end after I get elected.
00:58:48.400She got early childhood education across the finish line.
00:58:52.140She got universal child care across the finish line.0.95
00:58:55.020She made sure that the legislature was working, paying attention to and working on, you know, infusing the opportunity for the state to essentially fill in the gaps when all these Medicaid cuts and SNAP benefit cuts hit.
00:59:14.940So she has really done unprecedented things.
00:59:18.120The universal child care issue, everybody's talking about it.
00:59:21.720New Mexico is a leader and that we're proving that it can work. And when I think about what I,
00:59:29.440you know, what, how different my life would have been if I would have had somebody
00:59:34.280watching out for my child so that I could have a good paying job, it would have really
00:59:41.800made a difference for me. And so, I mean, are we going to be different? Absolutely. I have,
00:59:49.120I have ideas with my public education that I am excited about, and I'm going to be my own person,
00:59:58.300right? I have experience leading a large department. The Department of the Interior
01:00:04.760had 70,000 career staff, and I managed an $18 billion budget. I did that for four consecutive
01:00:10.700years, and we accomplished immense things all over the country. And so I feel qualified. I feel that
01:00:19.980my experience and the work I have done, both as congresswoman and secretary, will benefit the state
01:00:27.040of New Mexico. So we're coming at things from different angles. We both love New Mexico. That's
01:00:34.560clear. And so I'm going to do my best and I'll be grateful for her, the eight years that she
01:00:41.720gave to our state as a public servant. Well, I'm looking forward in a matter of weeks of calling
01:00:48.400you Governor-elect Holland and then shortly thereafter, Governor, congratulations on all
01:00:54.220the hard work. But hard work means nothing unless you finish the job and anyone watching, listening,
01:01:01.040anyone from New Mexico, turn in those ballots, take nothing for granted. Election day is today.
01:01:07.940As I said, it ends on November 3rd. Deb, thanks so much for being with us.
01:01:12.840Thank you so much, Governor Newsom. And if anyone wants to learn more,
01:01:16.440they can go to my website at debholland.com.