This is Gavin Newsom - And, This Is What The Founding Fathers Were Worried About With Jon Meacham

00:00:00.000 It's the war of all against all. It's this constant reality show, but his reality show is our reality.

00:00:06.040 People fought at Lexington and Concord and at Yorktown so that reason and deliberation would

00:00:11.340 at least have a chance against force and accident. Despair is a sin. Cynicism is a sin. Democracy

00:00:18.320 has to deliver or democracy doesn't survive. This is Gavin Newsom. And this is John Meacham.

00:00:30.000 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.

00:00:35.740 1969. Malcolm and Martin are gone. America is in crisis. At a Morehouse College, the students make their move.

00:00:43.160 These students, including a young Samuel L. Jackson, locked up the members of the Board of Trustees,

00:00:48.940 including Martin Luther King Sr. It's the true story of protest and rebellion in Black American history

00:00:55.000 that you'll never forget. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Menelik Lumumba.

00:00:58.800 Listen to the A-Building on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:05.540 Over the last couple years, didn't we learn that the folding chair was invented by Black people

00:01:10.300 because of what happened in Alabama?

00:01:12.920 This Black History Month, the podcast Selective Ignorance with Mandy B unpacks Black history

00:01:17.400 and culture with comedy, clarity, and conversations that shake the status quo.

00:01:21.720 The Crown Act in New York was signed in July of 2019, and that is a bill that was passed to prohibit

00:01:26.540 discrimination based on hairstyles associated with race.

00:01:29.400 To hear this and more, listen to Selective Ignorance with Mandy B from the Black Effect Podcast Network

00:01:34.720 on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:38.740 I'm Bowen Yang.

00:01:39.840 And I'm Matt Rogers.

00:01:40.760 During this season of the Two Guys, Five Rings podcast, in the lead-up to the Milan Cortina

00:01:46.260 at 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends.

00:01:50.340 Hi, Bowen!

00:01:50.960 Hi, Matt!

00:01:51.720 Hey, Elmo!

00:01:53.320 Hey, Matt!

00:01:53.940 Hey, Bowen!

00:01:54.760 Hi, Cookie! 1.00

00:01:55.760 Hi!

00:01:56.660 Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy to give you experiences

00:02:01.340 from our hearts to your ears.

00:02:04.020 Listen to Two Guys, Five Rings on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

00:02:08.920 your podcasts.

00:02:09.480 You can scroll the headlines all day and still feel empty.

00:02:16.280 I'm Ben Higgins, and If You Can Hear Me is where culture meets the soul.

00:02:20.060 Honest conversations about identity, loss, purpose, peace, faith, and everything in between.

00:02:26.180 Celebrities, thinkers, everyday people, some have answers, most are still figuring it out.

00:02:31.800 And if you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you.

00:02:35.440 Listen to If You Can Hear Me on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

00:02:41.260 get your podcasts.

00:02:42.640 John Meacham, thank you for joining us today on the podcast.

00:02:46.380 This weekend seemed to me a perfect distillation of our political life.

00:02:53.900 You had the Super Bowl halftime show, Bad Bunny.

00:02:57.540 We then had this alternative programming with Kid Rock, Turning Point USA.

00:03:02.520 And it's interesting, I was turning on, I get my blog every morning of headlines, and

00:03:08.180 I thought, just read these headlines and get your reflection.

00:03:10.880 It says, how the NFL lost America at halftime.

00:03:14.500 Next headline, it's exactly why.

00:03:16.640 Halftime shows exactly what the left wants America to look like.

00:03:21.480 The anti-American Super Bowl halftime show should be a wake-up call to real Americans.

00:03:27.180 Those are just some of the headlines this morning reflecting on Sunday's events.

00:03:34.740 How do those events shape your thinking about the world we're living in at this moment?

00:03:38.640 And how should we look at them through the prism of so much of the work that you've done

00:03:43.440 as an historian that has been chronicling events dissimilar and not dissimilar to those

00:03:51.040 we're experiencing today?

00:03:51.920 Well, thanks for having me, Governor.

00:03:54.980 I think one of the things that we have to deal with is politics and culture have become

00:04:03.520 so entwined.

00:04:05.220 And that's a newish thing.

00:04:07.480 It's not entirely new.

00:04:09.080 But the notion that we would have had a debate about the halftime show in the Reagan years

00:04:15.360 is a little crazy, right?

00:04:17.560 So, and that's actually what the 45th and 47th president wants.

00:04:25.880 No American president, and I'm very careful, when I say something's unprecedented, it's against

00:04:30.400 my business model.

00:04:31.780 So when I say it, you know, pay attention.

00:04:35.620 No American president has ever had the grip on the mind share of the country.

00:04:42.180 And it's part of his strategy.

00:04:45.820 It's ubiquity.

00:04:47.600 It's exhaustion.

00:04:49.060 I feel guilty because I fall prey to it.

00:04:52.440 I get, I'm not sure what to react to every day.

00:04:56.920 And so sometimes I just think I'm going to stay in the 1950s, right?

00:05:01.880 Or the 1850s or the 1750s.

00:05:04.220 But that's the strategy, and we can't fall prey to it, because men hit Omaha Beach.

00:05:13.440 People took risks in the Underground Railroad.

00:05:17.360 People fought at Lexington Concord and at Yorktown, so that, as Alexander Hamilton said, reason

00:05:23.680 and deliberation would at least have a chance against force and accident.

00:05:28.620 And to me, that's the, whether it's the Super Bowl or ICE or these lies about the election,

00:05:37.700 which we should talk about, because I think that's a genuinely unique thing we have to

00:05:43.480 deal with.

00:05:44.860 It's about reason and deliberation versus raw force and accident.

00:05:50.940 And we have a choice to make.

00:05:53.180 We haven't been invaded by aliens, right?

00:05:56.160 This is part of who we are.

00:05:59.180 One of the things, with all respect to Democratic politicians, that I resist when I hear is a

00:06:08.160 lot of your colleagues around the country will say, this isn't who we are.

00:06:12.640 Well, of course it's who we are.

00:06:14.700 What matters is, what is 51% of us?

00:06:17.900 You know, and that's where I think our attention has to be, is not thinking that this is a 90-10

00:06:26.060 question.

00:06:26.960 It's a big, complicated, disputatious democracy.

00:06:30.200 You govern a state that would, what, be the fifth largest economy or something?

00:06:34.560 Yeah, fourth today, fifth next year with India's rise. 1.00

00:06:37.560 But yeah, the size of 21 state populations combined, put it in perspective.

00:06:40.940 Yeah, so it's vast and it's uneven because, and, you know, you all have, don't have proportionate

00:06:48.680 power because of the way the constitutional structure was set up.

00:06:54.060 But that's the system we have.

00:06:56.700 And one of the things I think we're learning, and I say that, I say this as a centrist, look,

00:07:01.640 I'm George H.W.

00:07:02.620 Bush's biographer.

00:07:03.960 You know, I know I look really radical.

00:07:05.920 My fashion sense comes from Fred McMurray and my three sons, right?

00:07:10.420 So I'm not exactly, you know, a member of the squad.

00:07:15.440 That said, I am a constitutionalist, not because the Constitution is perfect, but because it

00:07:22.400 was, in fact, the best they could come up with to keep a really complicated, even then,

00:07:30.920 a complicated, now even more complicated, populace, together, obeying a social covenant, which

00:07:40.980 is that we respect each other because it's in our interest to.

00:07:44.980 If you respect me, I'm more likely to respect you.

00:07:48.580 And it's against human nature, right?

00:07:51.540 It's a lot, you know, democracy is about give and take, and it's a lot more fun to take than

00:07:55.720 to give.

00:07:56.940 The point is that just enough of us give so that we have this path forward.

00:08:03.160 John, when you say it's not who we are as sort of an observation, perhaps a critique and

00:08:09.140 clap back to some of the utterances that people make, including members of my party, you mean

00:08:17.040 that historically, I mean, democracy is us, and we've always been messy.

00:08:20.980 You talk about 51%.

00:08:22.380 Is that what you mean, ultimately, that we are, we're both and, we're complicated.

00:08:27.860 You talk about Jackson and the cruelty, the competency, both and.

00:08:30.920 I mean, this notion that it's a messy, we're messy.

00:08:34.320 Entirely, I'm sure you're a better person than I am.

00:08:36.900 That's not hard, so don't get cocky.

00:08:39.120 But I know that if I do the right thing, 51% of the time, that's a hell of a good day.

00:08:44.620 And I don't have that many of them.

00:08:46.520 And a democracy is the fullest manifestation of all of us.

00:08:49.420 You know, we're celebrating, commemorating the 250th.

00:08:53.820 But here's what I think is as true as anything.

00:08:59.720 We've really only been a multiracial democracy since 1965, right?

00:09:06.120 We're 60 years, we're 65 years old.

00:09:08.520 We're not 250 years old.

00:09:10.660 So how, you know, I think about, if you look like the two of us, it's been a great 250 years.

00:09:21.260 If you don't look like us, it's been a little rougher.

00:09:24.260 And so that's not to say, oh, the past is terrible.

00:09:28.980 Let's cancel it.

00:09:30.080 It's not that.

00:09:32.080 But we have to look at the past, you know, I think not with a censorious heart or with a kind of mindless celebration.

00:09:41.240 But we look it in the eye, we realize that there were competing forces, our appetites and ambitions shaped us, and yet just enough of us at critical points fought for independence, achieved the end, finally the end of slavery, undid legalized Jim Crow, defeated Hitler, stood against Soviet totalitarianism.

00:10:06.220 And it wasn't foreordained, but just enough of us did it.

00:10:12.520 And so the question now, really, is will just enough of us say that this authoritarian adjacent administration and this movement that is more about, I think, identity and power than any actual ideological or policy agenda, will that prevail?

00:10:33.040 How proximate is it to prior times in our history?

00:10:38.720 I mean, we are all so prone.

00:10:40.480 It's never been like this before.

00:10:42.140 And I mean, I imagine you clap back on that pretty aggressively.

00:10:46.580 I do.

00:10:47.140 I think whenever you say clap back, I think about Speaker Pelosi at that State of the Union.

00:10:53.700 Ripping up the speech.

00:10:56.140 Oh, God.

00:10:57.720 Yeah.

00:10:58.360 Speaker Pelosi is like if Napoleon had worn Manolo Blahniks, right?

00:11:02.780 I mean, she's an incredible, incredible woman.

00:11:07.020 I do whatever she says because it's easier to say yes quickly.

00:11:10.700 Trust me.

00:11:11.420 You have no idea.

00:11:13.380 Remember, you're talking to me.

00:11:15.280 I'm sitting up in my chair right now.

00:11:17.420 I know.

00:11:17.940 Isn't it amazing?

00:11:19.920 So here's my confession where I was wrong and where I think I'm right.

00:11:26.080 For the first four years, almost exactly, I thought President Trump was a difference of degree but not kind.

00:11:37.000 That is, from 15 to 20, almost everything he did.

00:11:42.760 I mean, the behavior is horrible.

00:11:44.560 But in terms of discernible public action, you could find it, all right, that's Huey Long, that's George Wallace.

00:11:52.320 You know, you could sort of place it and it was recognizable.

00:11:56.600 That changed in what I call the unfolding January 6th.

00:12:02.640 It's not just January 6th.

00:12:04.740 It was the fake electors.

00:12:06.620 It was the durability of the lies.

00:12:09.580 It was the attempt to manufacture a crisis that, since we're going to dork out for a second, I'll throw this out at you.

00:12:16.920 And if Mike Pence had not done what he did, you know, the plan, as they said, was to create so much chaos that the House would have to make the decision.

00:12:31.120 If Trump had prevailed in the House in 2021, what do you do if you have a constitutionally sanctioned remedy for an illegal result?

00:12:42.060 Right?

00:12:42.620 I mean, how do you, what do you do?

00:12:44.740 And what is, what I think is a particularly virulent and is going to prove to be particularly stubborn legacy of this movement of Trump and President Trump and the MAGA is this distrust in elections whose results you don't like.

00:13:07.900 If you think historically, Adams didn't do it in 1800, Andrew Jackson in 1824 hashtagged it.

00:13:18.280 He branded it a corrupt bargain, but he came back to Nashville and ran again.

00:13:23.080 Nobody stormed the Capitol.

00:13:25.940 Douglas and Breckinridge didn't do it in 1860.

00:13:30.220 Richard Nixon didn't do it in 1960.

00:13:32.580 Hubert Humphrey didn't do it in 1968.

00:13:34.900 Gerald Ford didn't do it in.

00:13:35.980 These are infinitesimal elections.

00:13:39.020 And of course, most famously, our friend Al Gore didn't do it in 2000.

00:13:44.240 And so that is a difference, not of degree, but of kind.

00:13:49.700 And it is about the social covenant, right?

00:13:53.380 It's about you accept rules and you accept when you lose because you trust the arena and you trust that the next time you might prevail.

00:14:06.380 And when that gets broken, when that trust is gone, which is what President Trump wants to do, right?

00:14:11.600 He wants us fighting about the Super Bowl.

00:14:13.960 He wants us just battling constantly because his view of the world is Hobbesian fundamentally.

00:14:22.160 I don't think, you know, it's that it's the war of all against all.

00:14:25.260 It's this constant reality show.

00:14:27.940 But the problem is, of course, as you know better than anybody, his reality show is our reality.

00:14:32.920 You look back, I mean, you're as a historian and you made the point about being a centrist and made the point about work you've done with the Bush family, notably George H.W. Bush.

00:14:45.480 And I want to go back to that in a moment.

00:14:49.840 Have you found yourself because of Trump to show more of your bias or do you feel your objectivity is still whole?

00:15:00.040 Meaning you are analyzing the facts.

00:15:02.860 They may come through the prism or the lens, which we see them as a little bit more partisan, but that they are sort of moored still in your objectivity as an historian.

00:15:11.700 Yeah, so I have a slightly different view of this than a lot of historians do.

00:15:19.100 I'm basically a biographer, and so I paint portraits.

00:15:23.360 And so if you'll stick with this metaphor with me.

00:15:26.720 But when you paint a portrait, you do it according to the light that's streaming in the window.

00:15:32.420 So any story you tell in retrospect will be shaped by the time in which you find yourself.

00:15:39.560 I have become much more, and President Biden was a friend and I helped him when I could, not on policy.

00:15:51.620 I pay plenty of taxes.

00:15:52.700 I'm good.

00:15:53.040 But I believed that and believe that he was a constitutionalist and that the journey toward a more perfect union and the arc of a moral universe were in better hands in his, obviously, than the once and future incumbents.

00:16:14.140 That said, I think it's fascinating that basically kind of Bush 41, even Reagan Republicans are now more center or even quasi center left because of the way the world has moved.

00:16:37.580 They haven't, it's like what your predecessor, Ronald Reagan said, he didn't leave the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party left him.

00:16:48.460 And in many ways, I do think that, I don't want to be overly grand about this, but I feel that too much is given, much is expected.

00:16:57.800 I've been incredibly fortunate in my life.

00:17:00.280 If I was born a citizen of the United States of America, I'm a boringly heterosexual white Southern male Episcopalian, you know, I'm good, right?

00:17:09.880 And so I think if you don't call them as you see them, what's the point, right?

00:17:15.520 If in this moment, one is not willing to say, you know what, a creeping to galloping authoritarian in the White House, playing on the oldest of American fears, if you're not willing to stand up against that, what are you willing to stand up for?

00:17:35.140 And as you paint that, sort of try to paint that picture, as you described in that light, which I appreciate the visual of, and being a biographer, not just in a story in that context, how important is it to have some, the temper of time, meaning to reflect, not in the moment, in the hot take, but looking through the lens of history and having perspective.

00:18:00.420 As my mom would say, seek first to understand before you're understood, to avoid the punditry as you're painting that picture.

00:18:08.840 That's a great question.

00:18:10.360 I, see, I hugely admire people who have the guts like you to go into the arena.

00:18:17.440 I may not agree with everything people in the arena want to do, but I've never been on a ballot, right?

00:18:22.660 And I, I think that what used to simply be a journalistic impulse to be kind of like Beavis and Butthead, just to kick people in the shins because you could, which was journalistic until the iPhone, and then everybody became that, right?

00:18:41.980 One of the things I say when I'm lucky enough to give commencement speeches, which I love to do, and you're really addressing the grandparents because the kids are hungover, and this line has never failed.

00:18:54.540 I say, just because you have the means to express an opinion quickly does not mean you have an opinion worth expressing quickly.

00:19:03.040 And I really do think, when Musk bought Twitter, I got off everything, I am much more healthy in a mental way, I don't follow the minute to minute, and headlines in history just don't move in tandem.

00:19:22.440 And the great examples of this are Harry Truman, who left Washington with a 20% approval rating.

00:19:30.400 But by 1970, everybody wanted to be Truman.

00:19:36.220 George H.W. Bush, 39% of the country, only 39% of the country wanted him reelected, but he died a kind of hero of the republic because people saw, sometimes, another little metaphor here,

00:19:50.940 sometimes you can't really see a mountain until you get farther, far enough away from it.

00:19:55.380 Nice.

00:19:56.320 And I really believe that.

00:19:58.340 And I think it's really important to say, which I think is true, that Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, George W. Bush, John McCain, and Mitt Romney could not be nominated by this Republican Party.

00:20:15.240 And why that doesn't force my Republican friends, I call them Peter Millar Republicans, right?

00:20:22.440 They're on the driving range.

00:20:25.440 Why that doesn't lead to more of a coherent plan of action, I don't really understand.

00:20:33.380 I mean, I understand the raw facts of it.

00:20:34.980 I remember when this first started happening in 2016, I was at a dinner with a southern governor, a small state, and he said, you know, when you're the governor of a state this size, you know every precinct.

00:20:52.920 In the Republican primary, it just happened.

00:20:55.040 And when the results started coming in, the Republican presidential primary on Super Tuesday in 2016, he thought there had been a computer error because these precincts that had had 100, 150 voters had 500 and 600.

00:21:12.280 Wow.

00:21:13.520 And it was because Trump, as he was then, had activated these folks.

00:21:19.140 Yeah.

00:21:19.500 And so Trump was telling a story that was resonating.

00:21:28.420 To me, the central work of someone like me is to tell a story that can compete with a narrative that is fundamentally not about recognizing and living into the Declaration of Independence,

00:21:49.500 but about exclusion and walls as opposed to bridges.

00:21:55.180 So that's the great challenge.

00:21:56.600 And you reflected it in your opening comments, this shock and awe of Trump 24-7, dominating the news, dominating our conversations, dominating.

00:22:05.400 I mean, we began on sports.

00:22:06.820 I mean, the idea that we have a president who's showing up with this exception, curiously, didn't show up at the Super Bowl, but has shown up in every other sporting venue to sort of highlight his dominance in terms of the conversation.

00:22:20.060 I mean, how do we start to reflect then?

00:22:22.540 I mean, is it more than the sort of the 250th anniversary of that declaration?

00:22:27.000 Is it more than those values?

00:22:30.220 Should we situationally find ourselves engaged day to day?

00:22:34.880 I mean, how do you, where do you find, I mean, you've been challenged with, you show up on Morning Joe consistently and you're sort of stuck in the headlines of the day trying to frame it in historical ways.

00:22:46.000 But for the rest of us, perhaps, you know, what, what's, is there advice, counsel, is there perspective that you can offer at this moment and how you confront what is so often lies misrepresentations, omissions, and historic deviance?

00:23:02.420 So one thing, this is pure punditry to answer your question after saying I don't do punditry anymore.

00:23:07.880 One of the, did you see the New York Times story about Senator Britt from Alabama?

00:23:13.220 Well, I've been, she's, she's been interesting.

00:23:16.700 I've watched her for some time.

00:23:18.120 She's actually very, very interesting.

00:23:20.120 She's an interesting political character. 1.00

00:23:22.160 I've had her on my bingo card as one of the rising stars in the Republican Party before she showed up in the counter-programming of that State of the Union. 0.98

00:23:31.080 Yeah.

00:23:31.500 So if you haven't seen it, take a look at it.

00:23:33.940 It was over the weekend.

00:23:34.960 And it, it was insofar as there's a leading indicator of something, of these kinds of Republicans.

00:23:43.880 Yeah.

00:23:44.380 The lead of the story is, and so it only came from one person, was the senator from Alabama sitting in her car texting.

00:23:53.440 So who's the source to her staff who she'd seen that terrible picture of an ICE agent with a little boy and a Spider-Man backpack being put into a car.

00:24:09.060 And she wrote saying, let's find out about this.

00:24:13.480 And that a senator from Alabama feels comfortable enough receiving, let's be honest, the cultural approbation of the New York Times tells you something, right?

00:24:27.900 It means that, and now I'm just speculating, but it means that maybe some fundraisers, maybe some donors are beginning to think, you know what, we got to think beyond the next 36 months.

00:24:43.380 You know, every day that passes, President Trump's interests and the interests of Republicans who are going to be on a ballot again get a little farther apart.

00:24:51.540 Um, so the power of that picture of that news picture tells you something and that, and so Senator Brett is willing to tell a story about herself, which is that she thinks that perhaps this is going too far.

00:25:13.320 That's a story, and one of the hard things about, and what I think is in a self-solipsistic way, I think this is important for what people like me do, is so much of our public life is about a kind of common assent, right?

00:25:35.620 It's about an ethos, and the ethos at our best has been one in which we obey the rule of law.

00:25:42.840 If we don't like the laws, we try to change them.

00:25:45.960 Um, we, uh, are trying to live into the declaration.

00:25:52.340 If we have to amend the user's guide, the constitution, we do it.

00:25:56.300 But that's been, and, and imperfectly, but it's kept us going, right?

00:26:01.400 It's kept the experiment worth defending.

00:26:03.560 The story we have to tell, because there has to be one, right, is ever harder for the lived experience of younger people, right?

00:26:17.900 So if, you know, you and I, I think, are about the same age.

00:26:20.820 So you and I grew up, we didn't fight in World War II, but our grandfathers did, right?

00:26:29.400 Like, uh, our, you know, I grew up in the South adjacent to, I, you know, I knew John Lewis, you know, uh, we, we could, we had a tactile connection to the greatest moments in American history.

00:26:45.120 The defeat of fascism, the defeat of Jim Crow. 0.58

00:26:48.760 But if you were born in the 21st century, what have you got?

00:26:53.140 You've got September 11th, the failure of the intelligence about weapons of mass destruction, the Great Recession, a biographically interesting, but historically indispositive Obama presidency.

00:27:06.060 You've got COVID, you've got COVID, you've got Trump, you've got January 6th, and in something that you'll appreciate that I, I don't think everybody and people who don't have kids, little kids at this point can appreciate.

00:27:21.280 For more than 20 years now, we have explicitly told our children, by our actions, not our words, that we can't keep them safe in schools.

00:27:34.640 We do duck and cover drills, not because of a foreign foe in Moscow, but because of what happens here.

00:27:43.840 And one of the two places you're supposed to be safest, your home and your school.

00:27:47.740 So why would you trust the grownups to do anything?

00:27:52.160 That's why the story matters so much, is telling the story.

00:27:57.260 The most important thing this country, I would argue, ever did was fight the Second World War.

00:28:02.880 But we barely did, right?

00:28:06.320 The Second World War began on September 1st, 1939.

00:28:09.280 We got in fully on the 12th of December, 1941.

00:28:13.180 We didn't declare war on Germany until Germany declared war on us.

00:28:18.640 We were literally dragged at the last minute into the most important thing we ever did.

00:28:24.520 And so that's not to say, oh, weren't they terrible?

00:28:27.700 And boy, we would do it better.

00:28:29.580 It's not to say that at all.

00:28:31.360 It's to say that if they were imperfect and they got there, then in our imperfection, we can too.

00:28:38.640 Welcome to the A-Building.

00:28:39.820 I'm Hans Charles.

00:28:40.960 I'm Menelich Lumumba.

00:28:41.860 It's 1969.

00:28:43.900 Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. had both been assassinated.

00:28:47.600 And Black America was at a breaking point.

00:28:49.960 Rioting and protests broke out on an unprecedented scale.

00:28:53.620 In Atlanta, Georgia, at Martin's alma mater, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest.

00:28:59.680 It featured two prominent figures in Black history, Martin Luther King Sr. and a young student, Samuel L. Jackson.

00:29:07.260 To be in what we really thought was a revolution.

00:29:11.880 I mean, people were dying.

00:29:13.220 1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone.

00:29:17.400 The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago.

00:29:23.260 This story is about protest.

00:29:25.780 It echoes in today's world far more than it should.

00:29:28.940 And it will blow your mind.

00:29:30.080 Listen to the A-Building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:29:38.140 What do you do when the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you?

00:29:46.500 I'm Ben Higgins.

00:29:47.700 And if you can hear me, it's where culture meets the soul.

00:29:50.900 A place for real conversation.

00:29:53.420 Each episode, I sit down with people from all walks of life.

00:29:57.300 Celebrities, thinkers, and everyday folks.

00:29:59.560 And we go deeper than the polished story.

00:30:02.480 We talk about what drives us, what shapes us, and what gives us hope.

00:30:07.060 We get honest about the big stuff.

00:30:08.920 Identity, when you don't recognize yourself anymore.

00:30:11.660 Loss, that changes you.

00:30:13.420 Purpose, when success isn't enough.

00:30:15.760 Peace, when your mind won't slow down.

00:30:17.820 Faith, when it's complicated.

00:30:19.680 Some guests have answers.

00:30:21.600 Most are still figuring it out.

00:30:23.680 If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you.

00:30:27.580 Listen to If You Can Hear Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:30:38.840 I'm Bowen Yang.

00:30:40.080 And I'm Matt Rogers.

00:30:40.880 During this season of the Two Guys, Five Rings podcast, in the lead-up to the Milan Cortina 2026 Winter Olympic Games,

00:30:48.440 we've been joined by some of our friends.

00:30:50.460 Hi, Bowen.

00:30:51.100 Hi, Matt.

00:30:51.860 Hey, Elmo.

00:30:53.460 Hey, Matt.

00:30:54.060 Hey, Bowen.

00:30:54.880 Hi, Cookie. 0.58

00:30:55.880 Hi.

00:30:56.180 Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears.

00:31:04.120 Listen to Two Guys, Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:31:12.420 What is one thing about love you've had to unlearn?

00:31:16.320 That it's earned.

00:31:17.460 That it needs to be forever for it to count.

00:31:20.540 February is the month of love.

00:31:22.740 Whether you're in a relationship, casually dating, or proudly single, it's a great time to reflect on yourself and what you want.

00:31:31.680 I'm Hope Woodard, host of the Boy Sober podcast, and each week this month, we're looking at love from every angle.

00:31:38.300 I don't know how to tell my partner, like, what I want in bed.

00:31:42.160 The thing about romantic fiction, I would say, more than any other genre of culture, is that it's always put women first. 0.99

00:31:47.160 My marriage stopped making sense.

00:31:49.040 The connection started to feel off.

00:31:51.160 The behavior started to feel different.

00:31:53.160 This February, get in touch with yourself by listening to Boy Sober.

00:31:58.300 That's B-O-Y-S-O-B-E-R. 1.00

00:32:02.560 I'm like, I would love to not hate the man I'm sleeping with.

00:32:05.440 I don't know what that's about.

00:32:06.500 Listen to Boy Sober on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:32:12.600 It's interesting when you talk about the party leaving Reagan and reflecting on his journey as Democrat labor leader to the Ronald Reagan we know today.

00:32:26.760 The Ronald Reagan and I happened coincidentally today to be in the old Reagan mansion here in Sacramento.

00:32:32.980 So the spirit of Reagan very alive in the walls surrounding me.

00:32:37.180 But I will never forget, and it's been a speech that's been shown millions of times now over the course of the last few months,

00:32:45.340 particularly with all the anxiety that we're experiencing out on the streets and sidewalks,

00:32:49.220 that anxiety that showed up in the New York Times with that text from Senator Britt.

00:32:54.980 And that is he ended his presidency and chose one speech.

00:32:59.540 He talked about Lady Liberty's torch.

00:33:01.260 He talked about, you know, this notion of newcomers and this sort of, you know, remarkable speech about pluralism and what defines America and makes us unique.

00:33:13.940 Now we have, obviously, what appears to be an invasive species, Donald Trump, in relationship to that.

00:33:23.800 But what you just painted was a picture of, you know, of frustration of people that have not experienced what you and I referenced with our grandparents

00:33:36.180 and experienced more of this historic project that obviously Ronald Reagan was a big part of as well.

00:33:41.540 And doesn't it make then more sense that there was a Donald Trump, someone who's going to shake the machine,

00:33:48.500 someone who's going to scratch the record, someone that was going to challenge those institutions that are failing our kids,

00:33:54.800 institutions that I know are us, they're reflective of us,

00:33:58.360 but institutions that are failing a generation of people.

00:34:03.380 People are stuck.

00:34:04.840 A 30-year-old not doing better than his parents for the first time in American history.

00:34:09.860 That populism that's not just from the far right, Donald Trump and Trumpism,

00:34:14.140 but reflected very much in Bernie and AOC and our politics on the left.

00:34:19.060 Isn't it, then, it doesn't explain a little bit more of that.

00:34:21.960 And isn't it more fair to consider Trump and Trumpism in that light than necessarily a deviancy

00:34:27.460 from a more traditional Republican values or the more conservative values?

00:34:33.540 I think, look, I totally understand how this happened, as you just laid it out.

00:34:39.700 It would surprise the founders that it took this long, by the way.

00:34:44.240 They were fully ready for this.

00:34:46.920 Abraham Lincoln's first public speech in 1838 was about,

00:34:52.720 if the Constitution and the Declaration are ever undone,

00:34:56.900 it's going to be not because of a foreign foe,

00:35:00.360 but because of a towering genius of a tyrant who might come along.

00:35:06.480 I don't want to, I don't think that Trump represents a deviancy from the American story.

00:35:14.840 I think he represents an extreme manifestation of,

00:35:18.920 there are legitimate cares and concerns, obviously, to deal with,

00:35:23.880 or it wouldn't have happened.

00:35:28.560 The question is, can you deal with the underlying issues

00:35:35.720 that have led to this manifestation of fear, unease, distrust?

00:35:43.360 Can you do so, but do so within a rule of law and with a devotion to a principle

00:35:52.160 that has endured, not fully applied, but we've never fully walked away from it either?

00:36:03.540 And is it going to be, is our public sphere going to be about raw power and force,

00:36:12.340 or can it be about solutions and genuinely changing people's lives?

00:36:20.800 I don't think, and I know you don't think this,

00:36:24.460 these kind of performative cracked outs,

00:36:28.060 are they changing, is that bringing manufacturing back?

00:36:34.340 You know?

00:36:35.160 Numbers suggest it's not, no, period.

00:36:37.660 So, and again, I'm not, look, I'm not,

00:36:40.800 I'm not particularly partisan.

00:36:42.860 I just think that

00:36:44.460 if we, if we, if, if people like you

00:36:50.260 don't find a way

00:36:52.960 to address the cares and concerns

00:36:56.060 of people

00:36:57.500 who

00:36:58.920 do not see

00:37:00.740 the path to prosperity,

00:37:02.940 and when you don't see a path to prosperity,

00:37:05.480 remember, this is not just about democracy,

00:37:07.200 it's about democratic capitalism.

00:37:08.520 If you don't have faith

00:37:10.680 that your work will be rewarded

00:37:12.700 and your family will do better,

00:37:14.600 why would you

00:37:15.580 support

00:37:17.040 the infrastructure

00:37:18.580 of a system

00:37:19.880 that you don't believe

00:37:21.640 is going to deliver for you?

00:37:24.080 Democracy has to deliver

00:37:26.180 or democracy

00:37:27.700 doesn't survive.

00:37:29.720 And there's always been,

00:37:31.300 this is,

00:37:31.720 Aristotle wrote about this,

00:37:33.320 there's always been a,

00:37:34.820 the middle class is the key

00:37:36.700 to any kind of durable republic

00:37:40.340 because

00:37:41.380 only when

00:37:42.780 you have a

00:37:43.720 belief that

00:37:45.160 rules

00:37:46.260 should be followed

00:37:48.080 but you can benefit

00:37:49.340 from the system

00:37:50.120 that

00:37:50.420 has rules,

00:37:52.480 that's the only reason

00:37:53.440 you do it.

00:37:54.020 Otherwise,

00:37:54.600 you race to

00:37:55.740 disruptive

00:37:57.980 movements.

00:38:01.420 And

00:38:01.640 I was thinking,

00:38:02.860 I'm doing a book on Eisenhower

00:38:04.080 right now,

00:38:04.980 and

00:38:05.240 it's so interesting

00:38:08.380 to read

00:38:09.120 his,

00:38:11.120 he spent an enormous

00:38:12.340 amount of time

00:38:13.100 trying to get

00:38:14.640 the Republican Party

00:38:15.620 of the 1950s

00:38:16.800 to support

00:38:17.420 what was then called

00:38:18.300 mutual security,

00:38:19.880 which became,

00:38:21.100 it was the Marshall Plan

00:38:22.340 in the 50s,

00:38:24.180 it was mutual security,

00:38:25.140 it became USAID

00:38:26.520 under President Kennedy.

00:38:29.860 And he had,

00:38:30.780 there's this great scene,

00:38:31.720 there was a senator

00:38:32.340 from New Hampshire

00:38:33.060 named Stiles Bridges

00:38:34.520 who was

00:38:35.580 very much,

00:38:36.600 and there were about

00:38:37.180 12 to 15

00:38:38.140 deeply conservative

00:38:39.260 senators

00:38:42.080 in the Senate

00:38:43.080 of McCarthy.

00:38:44.280 It wasn't,

00:38:44.720 one of the reasons

00:38:45.300 Ike was so slow

00:38:46.580 to take on McCarthy

00:38:47.540 is it wasn't just him,

00:38:49.200 he had

00:38:50.320 other votes,

00:38:51.780 and so nothing

00:38:52.460 would have happened.

00:38:53.140 It was a one vote margin

00:38:54.360 in those years,

00:38:56.600 very divided Senate,

00:38:57.760 but there's this,

00:39:00.300 and he taped it actually,

00:39:01.340 so we have an audio

00:39:02.160 of Eisenhower

00:39:03.300 trying to talk

00:39:04.280 this senator

00:39:04.880 from New Hampshire,

00:39:05.880 this deep conservative,

00:39:07.180 into supporting

00:39:07.880 mutual security.

00:39:09.480 And his argument was,

00:39:11.880 why,

00:39:12.480 if you're a,

00:39:13.100 if you're a nation,

00:39:13.960 if you're a people,

00:39:15.220 and you're trying

00:39:16.340 to decide

00:39:16.780 between communism

00:39:17.700 and the free world,

00:39:19.380 why wouldn't you

00:39:20.600 throw a little money

00:39:21.440 their way?

00:39:22.940 Right?

00:39:23.540 Why wouldn't you,

00:39:25.340 do you know how much,

00:39:26.360 do you know how much

00:39:26.940 more expensive

00:39:27.480 it's going to be

00:39:28.120 to send the army?

00:39:30.120 And so,

00:39:31.900 it was this

00:39:32.980 insight

00:39:34.140 that

00:39:35.320 you have to deliver

00:39:37.820 conditions

00:39:39.420 that enable

00:39:41.220 that pursuit

00:39:41.980 of happiness.

00:39:43.300 And if you don't,

00:39:45.240 then

00:39:45.720 you get

00:39:46.520 political chaos,

00:39:47.620 and that's where we are.

00:39:50.060 And I love the,

00:39:51.200 it's interesting,

00:39:51.720 the frame mutual security,

00:39:53.240 a much more effective

00:39:54.500 frame

00:39:55.260 in contemporary

00:39:56.480 political terms

00:39:57.300 than USAID.

00:39:59.460 He hated,

00:40:00.660 Eisenhower

00:40:01.660 explicitly said,

00:40:03.180 do not call

00:40:04.380 this foreign aid.

00:40:06.140 It's not that.

00:40:07.620 It's mutual security.

00:40:10.100 And you talk,

00:40:11.180 so you,

00:40:11.540 I mean,

00:40:11.740 it's remarkable,

00:40:12.460 you've got a book

00:40:13.160 that you're working on,

00:40:14.380 Eisenhower,

00:40:14.800 it comes out next year.

00:40:16.140 You just,

00:40:16.740 you're coming out

00:40:17.300 next week

00:40:18.100 with this new book,

00:40:19.760 America's Struggle,

00:40:20.940 which I don't want

00:40:21.920 to forget about

00:40:22.560 because it reflects

00:40:23.600 what?

00:40:23.940 Best book

00:40:24.880 I ever Xeroxed.

00:40:26.940 Okay.

00:40:27.700 Best book

00:40:28.400 I ever Xeroxed.

00:40:29.400 For the six people

00:40:30.320 who know what Xerox means,

00:40:32.080 you seem to be talking

00:40:33.240 about faxing things.

00:40:34.860 But,

00:40:35.000 America's Struggle.

00:40:37.020 Let me get my landline

00:40:38.260 just a second.

00:40:39.340 Yeah,

00:40:39.640 exactly.

00:40:41.140 Look,

00:40:41.860 250 years,

00:40:43.680 not the Constitution,

00:40:46.020 250 years ago,

00:40:47.160 the Declaration of Independence.

00:40:48.520 And you talk about

00:40:49.380 this operating system,

00:40:51.160 you talk about

00:40:51.580 the mission statement,

00:40:52.460 mission statement

00:40:53.100 being what was printed

00:40:54.880 by not just Jefferson,

00:40:57.980 but that guy Adams

00:40:59.540 who's often forgotten

00:41:00.560 in this conversation

00:41:02.360 250 years ago.

00:41:03.800 Talk to me a little bit

00:41:04.500 about what you've Xeroxed

00:41:07.120 in this new book.

00:41:08.220 You're kind of saying it.

00:41:09.500 So,

00:41:09.800 about seven,

00:41:11.200 eight years ago,

00:41:11.820 I wrote a book

00:41:12.440 called The Soul of America.

00:41:14.060 And it was my reaction

00:41:15.640 to Charlottesville.

00:41:16.860 And my argument was that,

00:41:18.260 you know,

00:41:18.560 and soul in Hebrew

00:41:19.640 and in Greek

00:41:20.220 means breath or life.

00:41:22.580 So,

00:41:22.880 when God breathed life

00:41:23.860 into man in Genesis,

00:41:25.260 that word could be

00:41:25.820 translated as soul.

00:41:27.300 When Jesus said,

00:41:28.100 greater love

00:41:28.560 hath no man than this

00:41:29.600 than to lay down

00:41:30.180 his life for his friends,

00:41:31.480 that could mean soul.

00:41:32.720 So,

00:41:32.920 it's the vital thing

00:41:33.900 that sets us apart.

00:41:35.700 And to me,

00:41:36.440 the soul is not

00:41:37.360 wholly good or wholly bad,

00:41:39.120 but an arena of contention.

00:41:40.740 It is for me.

00:41:41.680 It is for you.

00:41:42.740 I think it is for the country.

00:41:44.340 So,

00:41:44.900 you have these forces.

00:41:46.020 You have Dr. King.

00:41:47.280 You have the Klan.

00:41:48.880 It's just,

00:41:50.260 and we just fight it out

00:41:52.000 again and again and again.

00:41:53.180 And it is a perennial struggle.

00:41:55.520 There will never be,

00:41:56.760 there's never been

00:41:57.360 a once upon a time

00:41:58.460 in American history.

00:42:00.140 There's not going to be

00:42:01.160 a happily ever after.

00:42:02.880 Right?

00:42:03.060 There will always be

00:42:04.200 more work to be done.

00:42:06.580 And so,

00:42:07.660 the declaration

00:42:08.560 is really scriptural.

00:42:11.840 And it's interesting

00:42:12.680 that Jefferson,

00:42:14.620 who was a,

00:42:15.340 described,

00:42:16.400 attacked as a French atheist,

00:42:17.920 which when you think about it,

00:42:18.840 it's kind of redundant

00:42:19.620 in his political days.

00:42:23.560 He actually saw that.

00:42:25.000 He saw that what he was doing.

00:42:27.100 He gave his,

00:42:28.020 the desk on which he'd written it,

00:42:30.120 sort of his laptop.

00:42:31.760 He gave it to a granddaughter

00:42:33.140 saying that

00:42:34.200 this has taken on

00:42:36.640 sacred dimensions.

00:42:39.740 And nobody,

00:42:42.380 the fact that we

00:42:43.220 celebrate 250

00:42:45.460 to the declaration

00:42:46.880 as opposed to the constitution

00:42:48.600 has a lot to do,

00:42:50.760 again,

00:42:51.300 forgive the geekiness,

00:42:52.340 but you called,

00:42:53.520 has a lot to do with Lincoln.

00:42:55.400 Thomas Jefferson

00:42:57.300 never had a better friend

00:42:58.740 than Abraham Lincoln,

00:43:00.440 who at Gettysburg,

00:43:02.420 the middle,

00:43:03.620 remember,

00:43:04.220 remember,

00:43:04.500 the battle of the Civil War

00:43:06.180 was about the meaning

00:43:07.200 of the constitution,

00:43:09.360 secession,

00:43:10.340 division of power.

00:43:11.440 what does Lincoln do

00:43:13.180 at Gettysburg?

00:43:14.220 He jumps over 1787

00:43:16.640 and goes to 1776.

00:43:21.020 Founded not on the proposition

00:43:22.640 that,

00:43:23.240 well,

00:43:23.340 here's a bill of rights

00:43:24.380 and here's we the people

00:43:25.540 or we the state.

00:43:26.420 He just jumps all the way back

00:43:28.660 and says,

00:43:29.760 no,

00:43:29.920 that we became a people

00:43:31.400 because of this principle.

00:43:32.960 And in that moment,

00:43:37.420 really,

00:43:39.100 the declaration is elevated

00:43:40.820 in a way that continues

00:43:42.880 to shape who we are.

00:43:44.580 So,

00:43:45.620 in the middle of World War II,

00:43:47.260 Franklin Roosevelt goes

00:43:48.420 to open the Jefferson Memorial

00:43:49.860 and he talks about,

00:43:52.300 we are fighting a war

00:43:53.080 for the Declaration of Independence.

00:43:54.920 Dr. King,

00:43:55.680 the key part of the sermon

00:43:57.120 at the March on Washington

00:43:58.100 is all men are created equal,

00:44:01.360 right?

00:44:01.540 It is a scriptural maxim.

00:44:05.900 And Lincoln also said about it

00:44:07.440 that it would be a forever

00:44:09.000 a reappearing stumbling block

00:44:10.980 to any kind of tyranny.

00:44:15.040 And so,

00:44:15.540 what I wanted to do

00:44:16.300 with the book,

00:44:16.960 I Xeroxed,

00:44:18.540 I had a student ask me,

00:44:19.800 by the way,

00:44:20.340 once at Vanderbilt,

00:44:23.220 how do we used to do

00:44:24.480 student newspapers?

00:44:26.100 And I said,

00:44:26.720 well,

00:44:26.880 we would print out the columns

00:44:28.240 and then we'd cut them

00:44:29.120 and we'd paste them.

00:44:30.300 And she said,

00:44:30.880 oh my God,

00:44:31.840 that's where cut and paste

00:44:32.760 came from.

00:44:34.400 So,

00:44:35.880 hello middle age.

00:44:38.820 This is a Gat,

00:44:39.700 so the soul book,

00:44:40.840 this is the chorus of voices

00:44:42.940 from the first summoning

00:44:46.580 of the Virginia House of Burgesses

00:44:48.180 all the way through

00:44:49.800 Steve Levitsky at Harvard

00:44:51.600 warning about authoritarianism.

00:44:53.320 These are the original voices.

00:44:57.260 So,

00:44:58.080 and to me,

00:44:58.880 the central voice

00:44:59.840 is Frederick Douglass.

00:45:03.640 Imagine what it took

00:45:04.740 for a man born into enslavement

00:45:06.840 who'd escaped

00:45:07.560 to say

00:45:08.880 in the face of Dred Scott,

00:45:11.200 I, for one,

00:45:12.520 do not despair of this republic.

00:45:14.200 The fiat of the almighty,

00:45:15.600 let there be light,

00:45:16.480 has not yet spent its force.

00:45:19.300 Imagine what it takes

00:45:20.600 for him to say that.

00:45:24.280 It puts up this moment

00:45:25.900 where people are feeling

00:45:27.240 anxiety and despair

00:45:28.440 and hopelessness

00:45:29.360 and perspective.

00:45:30.640 What is,

00:45:31.100 I mean,

00:45:31.400 as you look back,

00:45:32.400 you talk about rule of law

00:45:33.500 a lot.

00:45:34.600 And,

00:45:35.040 you know,

00:45:35.400 bring up Plato,

00:45:36.200 I mean,

00:45:36.740 if you think of the founding fathers,

00:45:37.780 the best of,

00:45:38.720 you know,

00:45:38.920 the Greek democracy,

00:45:39.860 the Roman Republic,

00:45:40.820 three co-equal branches

00:45:42.080 of government,

00:45:42.660 popular sovereignty,

00:45:44.020 going back to this notion

00:45:45.280 of the rule of law.

00:45:46.040 I've been critical,

00:45:48.240 you know,

00:45:48.740 Ian Brenner,

00:45:49.280 others have used the phrase,

00:45:50.620 it's now the rule of dawn,

00:45:52.480 a supine Congress,

00:45:53.860 no longer co-equal branches

00:45:55.320 of government,

00:45:55.860 et cetera.

00:45:56.200 I mean,

00:45:56.760 what do you,

00:45:57.280 you know,

00:45:57.560 you talk about lighting

00:45:58.760 democracy on fire

00:45:59.840 and you,

00:46:00.580 not your words,

00:46:01.580 but as some have described,

00:46:02.960 January 6th

00:46:04.340 and how Trump

00:46:06.060 tried to wreck this country,

00:46:07.240 at least from my perspective,

00:46:08.940 in January 6th.

00:46:09.560 But we move now

00:46:10.560 into the 250th anniversary

00:46:12.040 of that declaration.

00:46:15.660 So much of our history

00:46:16.740 is being rewritten,

00:46:18.980 you know,

00:46:19.400 quite literally,

00:46:20.280 erased,

00:46:20.980 books being banned,

00:46:22.840 we're censoring historical facts,

00:46:24.720 you see libraries,

00:46:26.280 teachers,

00:46:27.000 gag rules,

00:46:27.520 what they can say,

00:46:28.620 teach,

00:46:29.340 corporate gag rules as well

00:46:30.940 in many respects,

00:46:31.920 on DEI,

00:46:32.760 quote-unquote anti-woke legislation.

00:46:34.800 I mean,

00:46:34.860 how do you reflect

00:46:35.560 on all of that

00:46:36.780 and unpack all of that?

00:46:38.380 How do we maintain

00:46:39.440 this mythology

00:46:40.440 that binds us together,

00:46:42.080 which is so important?

00:46:43.780 And I think as Democrats,

00:46:44.440 we need to talk more about.

00:46:46.460 At the same time,

00:46:48.040 you know,

00:46:48.760 we are honest

00:46:49.580 about that history

00:46:51.840 as we now move in

00:46:52.960 to celebrate

00:46:53.420 later this summer.

00:46:54.580 I look forward

00:46:55.400 to seeing how you do it.

00:46:59.080 Jesus.

00:46:59.820 Good luck to you.

00:47:00.840 Yeah, thanks, John.

00:47:02.560 I have a feeling

00:47:03.420 this is not the first time

00:47:04.740 you've thought

00:47:05.100 about this question.

00:47:06.740 It is about,

00:47:09.120 you use a really important

00:47:10.360 word,

00:47:11.260 which is mythology.

00:47:13.120 And it,

00:47:14.120 unfortunately,

00:47:15.160 people think it means

00:47:16.260 something made,

00:47:17.120 something false.

00:47:18.520 Right.

00:47:19.120 But a myth

00:47:21.000 is the story we tell.

00:47:23.100 And the most,

00:47:24.280 one of the most

00:47:24.800 interesting parts,

00:47:26.200 did you watch

00:47:28.020 or read

00:47:28.800 the Carney speech?

00:47:31.580 I was with him

00:47:32.620 20 minutes

00:47:33.620 before he gave it

00:47:34.420 in Davos.

00:47:35.140 Okay.

00:47:35.920 Yeah, yeah.

00:47:36.660 To me,

00:47:37.400 the most interesting,

00:47:38.560 one of the most interesting

00:47:39.480 parts of that speech

00:47:40.400 is how honest he was

00:47:42.040 about exactly

00:47:42.980 the kind of question

00:47:43.780 you're asking,

00:47:44.820 which is,

00:47:45.820 there was a fiction

00:47:47.900 we agreed to.

00:47:49.500 Right?

00:47:50.020 We agreed

00:47:50.820 that we were going

00:47:52.140 to be this

00:47:52.620 Western country

00:47:53.620 and yes,

00:47:54.260 there were,

00:47:54.860 it was imperfect

00:47:55.540 and,

00:47:56.840 but we decided

00:47:57.980 that this was

00:47:59.280 the,

00:48:01.660 kind of the

00:48:02.680 imaginative

00:48:03.720 infrastructure

00:48:04.560 of how we were

00:48:06.220 going to be.

00:48:07.700 And that's what

00:48:08.640 we have to do.

00:48:09.700 And

00:48:10.280 it is very clear

00:48:12.200 that

00:48:13.800 President Trump

00:48:14.840 and possibly

00:48:15.540 his would-be

00:48:16.640 successors

00:48:17.440 are really,

00:48:19.020 really good

00:48:19.480 at this.

00:48:20.920 I think about

00:48:21.960 that wall

00:48:22.680 now,

00:48:23.260 the colonnade,

00:48:24.100 at the White House

00:48:25.700 where,

00:48:26.920 which is

00:48:27.660 this,

00:48:30.600 I mean,

00:48:30.940 to say it's,

00:48:31.580 it's like a

00:48:32.380 funhouse mirror

00:48:33.780 is just,

00:48:35.180 it doesn't quite do

00:48:36.200 justice to it.

00:48:37.900 But

00:48:38.540 I think

00:48:40.520 I might begin

00:48:41.960 the story

00:48:42.700 with

00:48:44.240 it is

00:48:46.740 true

00:48:48.240 that

00:48:49.920 we can either

00:48:51.820 be we the people

00:48:52.920 or

00:48:54.080 I the powerful.

00:48:57.600 Right?

00:48:58.300 That's it.

00:48:59.580 Nice.

00:48:59.960 And

00:49:00.400 we the people

00:49:02.060 means that

00:49:04.040 all of us

00:49:04.860 have skin

00:49:06.460 in the game.

00:49:08.080 And

00:49:08.540 what's the old rule?

00:49:09.420 You,

00:49:09.820 even if you get a

00:49:10.420 donor for $5,

00:49:11.560 you want them

00:49:12.140 because it

00:49:12.580 changes their

00:49:13.580 psychology.

00:49:14.820 Absolutely.

00:49:15.760 Yeah.

00:49:16.200 Yeah.

00:49:16.400 And

00:49:18.120 what we've

00:49:19.360 seen

00:49:19.740 is that

00:49:20.560 there is

00:49:22.180 the absolutist

00:49:23.680 tendency

00:49:24.300 of the current

00:49:26.000 incumbent

00:49:26.460 in the Oval

00:49:27.900 Office.

00:49:29.500 He's made,

00:49:30.380 he's actually

00:49:30.880 made this

00:49:31.560 story kind

00:49:32.440 of easy

00:49:32.780 to tell

00:49:33.320 because

00:49:34.780 the counter

00:49:36.660 story,

00:49:37.340 the counter

00:49:37.980 story is

00:49:38.480 that this

00:49:38.880 is not

00:49:39.560 just about,

00:49:41.440 sorry,

00:49:41.880 this is

00:49:42.240 my,

00:49:43.400 my colleague,

00:49:44.140 this is

00:49:47.720 not,

00:49:49.000 the future

00:49:50.600 cannot simply

00:49:51.400 be about

00:49:52.240 the person

00:49:53.180 whose name

00:49:53.660 is on the

00:49:54.100 ballot.

00:49:55.820 Right?

00:49:56.440 It has to,

00:49:57.000 it's not

00:49:57.400 about

00:49:57.960 me,

00:49:59.460 it's we,

00:49:59.960 you know,

00:50:00.140 whatever the

00:50:00.820 phrase would

00:50:01.400 be.

00:50:02.040 But the

00:50:02.700 first three

00:50:03.300 words of

00:50:04.840 the Constitution

00:50:05.620 are absolutely

00:50:07.420 vital in this.

00:50:08.460 It is,

00:50:09.120 in fact,

00:50:09.580 we the

00:50:10.060 people

00:50:10.540 in pursuit

00:50:12.160 of a more

00:50:12.660 perfect union.

00:50:14.400 And that

00:50:15.480 should be

00:50:15.900 empowering to

00:50:16.660 people,

00:50:17.080 I would

00:50:17.320 think,

00:50:18.220 because if

00:50:20.660 it's one

00:50:21.060 person,

00:50:21.760 that means

00:50:22.480 there are

00:50:22.680 329 million

00:50:23.820 of the rest

00:50:24.260 of us who

00:50:25.200 are on the

00:50:25.500 outside looking

00:50:26.140 in.

00:50:27.600 And I

00:50:28.300 think that's

00:50:28.920 where I'd

00:50:29.260 start,

00:50:30.040 I would

00:50:30.360 start the

00:50:30.800 story,

00:50:31.480 is that

00:50:32.140 Gouverneur

00:50:33.220 Morris,

00:50:35.440 the committee

00:50:36.360 and drafting

00:50:37.020 in the

00:50:37.340 Constitution,

00:50:38.940 in that

00:50:39.300 wonderful

00:50:39.760 preamble,

00:50:40.500 articulated

00:50:42.980 something

00:50:43.800 that

00:50:44.800 was

00:50:46.580 beyond

00:50:47.140 the,

00:50:48.300 Patrick

00:50:49.000 Henry,

00:50:49.440 by the

00:50:49.680 way,

00:50:50.020 when he

00:50:50.360 attacked

00:50:50.740 the

00:50:50.920 Constitution,

00:50:52.460 actually

00:50:52.700 said,

00:50:53.720 by what

00:50:54.140 rights

00:50:54.740 did the

00:50:56.200 framers say

00:50:56.840 we the

00:50:57.300 people?

00:50:58.380 It's we

00:50:58.860 the states.

00:51:00.680 And Henry,

00:51:01.400 he just

00:51:01.680 didn't,

00:51:02.080 he didn't

00:51:02.480 get it,

00:51:03.520 right?

00:51:03.960 Interesting.

00:51:04.620 Guys in

00:51:05.100 Philadelphia

00:51:05.600 did.

00:51:07.160 That there

00:51:07.940 was a

00:51:08.620 kind of

00:51:09.280 mythic

00:51:10.480 union.

00:51:13.240 Andrew

00:51:13.540 Jackson

00:51:13.940 said,

00:51:14.700 the

00:51:15.720 Constitution

00:51:16.140 does not

00:51:16.960 form a

00:51:18.420 league,

00:51:18.960 but a

00:51:19.340 compact.

00:51:20.920 It's a

00:51:21.660 covenant.

00:51:23.660 And it's

00:51:24.760 about having

00:51:25.320 each other's

00:51:25.780 back.

00:51:27.080 Welcome to

00:51:27.820 the A

00:51:28.140 Building.

00:51:28.640 I'm Hans

00:51:29.160 Charles.

00:51:29.780 I'm

00:51:29.940 Menelik

00:51:30.280 Lumumba.

00:51:31.100 It's

00:51:31.300 1969.

00:51:32.720 Malcolm

00:51:32.980 X and

00:51:33.440 Martin

00:51:33.660 Luther

00:51:33.860 King

00:51:34.140 Jr.

00:51:34.480 had both

00:51:34.980 been

00:51:35.140 assassinated.

00:51:36.420 And 0.89

00:51:36.520 Black 0.64

00:51:36.700 America

00:51:37.180 was at

00:51:37.780 a

00:51:37.900 breaking

00:51:38.160 point.

00:51:38.780 Rioting

00:51:39.040 and

00:51:39.180 protests

00:51:39.580 broke

00:51:39.880 out

00:51:40.060 on

00:51:40.240 an

00:51:40.380 unprecedented

00:51:41.000 scale.

00:51:42.520 In

00:51:42.600 Atlanta,

00:51:43.080 Georgia,

00:51:43.520 at

00:51:43.680 Martin's

00:51:44.120 alma mater,

00:51:44.880 Morehouse

00:51:45.380 College,

00:51:46.120 the students

00:51:46.600 had their

00:51:47.380 own

00:51:47.680 protest.

00:51:48.520 It

00:51:48.600 featured

00:51:48.960 two

00:51:49.400 prominent

00:51:49.980 figures

00:51:50.440 in

00:51:50.700 Black 0.64

00:51:50.900 history,

00:51:51.760 Martin

00:51:52.020 Luther

00:51:52.280 King

00:51:52.540 Sr.

00:51:53.000 and a

00:51:53.660 young

00:51:53.940 student,

00:51:54.720 Samuel

00:51:55.080 L.

00:51:55.700 Jackson.

00:51:57.160 To

00:51:57.320 be in

00:51:58.160 what we

00:51:58.940 really

00:51:59.240 thought was

00:51:59.880 a

00:52:00.060 revolution,

00:52:00.700 I mean,

00:52:00.940 people

00:52:01.100 were dying.

00:52:01.980 1968,

00:52:03.040 the murder

00:52:03.440 of Dr.

00:52:03.900 King,

00:52:04.340 which

00:52:04.600 traumatized

00:52:05.480 everyone.

00:52:06.220 The FBI

00:52:06.920 had a

00:52:07.880 role

00:52:08.520 in the

00:52:09.180 murder

00:52:09.560 of a 1.00

00:52:10.160 Black 0.64

00:52:10.460 Panther

00:52:10.820 leader

00:52:11.220 in

00:52:11.620 Chicago.

00:52:12.880 This

00:52:13.060 story

00:52:13.400 is about

00:52:13.800 protest.

00:52:14.600 It

00:52:14.720 echoes

00:52:15.100 in

00:52:15.320 today's

00:52:15.720 world

00:52:16.060 far

00:52:16.420 more

00:52:16.760 than

00:52:16.980 it

00:52:17.200 should.

00:52:17.820 And

00:52:17.920 it

00:52:18.020 will

00:52:18.140 blow 0.77

00:52:18.340 your

00:52:18.560 mind.

00:52:20.200 Listen

00:52:20.780 to

00:52:20.980 The

00:52:21.160 A

00:52:21.320 Building

00:52:21.600 on

00:52:22.000 the

00:52:22.180 iHeart

00:52:22.640 Radio

00:52:22.960 app,

00:52:23.780 Apple

00:52:24.060 Podcasts,

00:52:25.100 or

00:52:25.440 wherever

00:52:25.720 you

00:52:25.940 get

00:52:26.160 your

00:52:26.320 podcasts.

00:52:30.380 What

00:52:30.980 do

00:52:31.080 you

00:52:31.180 do

00:52:31.340 when

00:52:31.440 the

00:52:31.580 headlines

00:52:32.020 don't

00:52:32.540 explain

00:52:33.060 what's

00:52:33.360 happening

00:52:33.800 inside

00:52:34.440 of you.

00:52:35.320 I'm

00:52:35.720 Ben

00:52:35.880 Higgins,

00:52:36.460 and if

00:52:36.780 you can

00:52:36.980 hear me,

00:52:37.540 it's where

00:52:37.820 culture meets

00:52:38.720 the soul,

00:52:39.720 a place for

00:52:40.580 real conversation.

00:52:42.220 Each episode,

00:52:43.180 I sit down with

00:52:44.100 people from all

00:52:44.980 walks of life,

00:52:46.080 celebrities,

00:52:46.760 thinkers,

00:52:47.080 and everyday

00:52:47.560 and everyday

00:52:47.580 folks,

00:52:48.380 and we

00:52:48.780 go deeper

00:52:49.540 than the

00:52:50.300 polished

00:52:50.700 story.

00:52:51.440 We talk

00:52:51.880 about what

00:52:52.380 drives us,

00:52:53.180 what shapes

00:52:53.740 us,

00:52:54.400 and what

00:52:54.620 gives us

00:52:55.020 hope.

00:52:55.860 We get

00:52:56.220 honest about

00:52:56.760 the big

00:52:57.220 stuff.

00:52:57.720 Identity

00:52:58.240 when you

00:52:58.600 don't

00:52:58.820 recognize

00:52:59.260 yourself

00:52:59.900 anymore,

00:53:00.480 loss

00:53:00.920 that changes

00:53:01.800 you,

00:53:02.260 purpose

00:53:02.540 when success

00:53:03.360 isn't

00:53:03.680 enough,

00:53:04.580 peace

00:53:04.880 when your

00:53:05.220 mind won't

00:53:05.800 slow down,

00:53:06.640 faith

00:53:06.940 when it's

00:53:07.360 complicated.

00:53:08.520 Some

00:53:08.880 guests

00:53:09.180 have

00:53:09.400 answers.

00:53:10.440 Most

00:53:10.720 are still

00:53:11.220 figuring it

00:53:11.780 out.

00:53:12.520 If you've

00:53:12.720 ever felt

00:53:13.140 like there

00:53:13.480 has to be

00:53:13.980 more to the

00:53:14.540 story,

00:53:15.380 this show is

00:53:15.880 for you.

00:53:17.140 Listen to

00:53:17.680 If You

00:53:18.160 Can Hear

00:53:18.560 Me on

00:53:19.060 the iHeartRadio

00:53:19.880 app,

00:53:20.520 Apple Podcasts,

00:53:21.720 or wherever

00:53:22.580 you get your

00:53:23.100 podcasts.

00:53:27.640 I'm Bowen Yang.

00:53:28.900 And I'm Matt

00:53:29.240 Rogers.

00:53:29.700 During this

00:53:30.140 season of

00:53:30.600 the Two Guys

00:53:31.540 Five Rings

00:53:32.360 podcast,

00:53:33.140 in the lead

00:53:33.780 up to the

00:53:34.260 Milan Cortina

00:53:35.200 2026

00:53:36.140 Winter

00:53:36.480 Olympic Games,

00:53:37.260 we've been

00:53:37.540 joined by

00:53:37.900 some of our

00:53:38.420 friends.

00:53:39.280 Hi,

00:53:39.580 Bowen!

00:53:39.900 Hi,

00:53:40.160 Matt!

00:53:40.680 Hey,

00:53:41.220 Elmo!

00:53:42.260 Hey,

00:53:42.600 Matt!

00:53:42.880 Hey,

00:53:43.060 Bowen!

00:53:43.700 Hi,

00:53:44.220 Cookie! 0.99

00:53:44.700 Hi!

00:53:45.020 Now,

00:53:46.240 the Winter

00:53:46.560 Olympic Games

00:53:47.180 are underway,

00:53:48.020 and we are

00:53:48.340 in Italy

00:53:49.140 to give you

00:53:49.740 experiences

00:53:50.280 from our

00:53:50.900 hearts

00:53:51.360 to your

00:53:51.900 ears.

00:53:52.960 Listen to

00:53:53.380 Two Guys

00:53:53.880 Five Rings

00:53:54.540 on the

00:53:54.860 iHeartRadio

00:53:55.580 app,

00:53:56.120 Apple Podcasts,

00:53:57.080 or wherever

00:53:57.440 you get

00:53:57.860 your podcasts.

00:54:01.220 What is

00:54:02.280 one thing

00:54:02.960 about love

00:54:03.460 you've had

00:54:03.860 to unlearn

00:54:04.860 that it's

00:54:05.500 earned?

00:54:06.280 That it

00:54:06.880 needs to be

00:54:07.600 forever

00:54:08.060 for it

00:54:08.580 to count?

00:54:09.360 February

00:54:09.680 is the

00:54:10.500 month of

00:54:11.100 love.

00:54:12.020 Whether

00:54:12.200 you're in

00:54:12.560 a relationship,

00:54:13.280 casually dating,

00:54:14.660 or proudly

00:54:15.260 single,

00:54:15.980 it's a great

00:54:16.520 time to reflect

00:54:17.460 on yourself

00:54:18.200 and what

00:54:19.000 you want.

00:54:20.500 I'm Hope

00:54:21.040 Woodard,

00:54:21.740 host of the

00:54:22.380 Boy Sober

00:54:22.840 podcast,

00:54:23.720 and each week

00:54:24.300 this month,

00:54:24.900 we're looking

00:54:25.340 at love

00:54:25.860 from every

00:54:26.660 angle.

00:54:27.500 I don't know

00:54:28.660 how to tell

00:54:29.000 my partner

00:54:29.400 what I want

00:54:30.460 in bed.

00:54:30.980 The thing

00:54:31.140 about romantic

00:54:31.620 fiction,

00:54:32.020 I would say,

00:54:32.280 more than

00:54:32.520 any other

00:54:32.940 genre of culture,

00:54:33.680 is that it's

00:54:34.080 always put

00:54:35.340 women first. 0.99

00:54:36.000 My marriage

00:54:36.520 stopped making

00:54:37.100 sense.

00:54:37.880 The connection

00:54:38.500 started to feel

00:54:39.280 off.

00:54:40.000 The behavior

00:54:40.560 started to feel

00:54:41.320 different.

00:54:43.400 This February,

00:54:44.520 get in touch

00:54:44.940 with yourself

00:54:45.500 by listening

00:54:46.140 to Boy Sober.

00:54:47.100 That's B-O-Y-S-O-B-E-R. 1.00

00:54:51.360 I'm like,

00:54:51.760 I would love

00:54:52.400 to not hate

00:54:53.040 the man I'm

00:54:53.660 sleeping with.

00:54:54.280 I don't know

00:54:54.580 what that's about.

00:54:55.300 Listen to Boy Sober

00:54:56.320 on the iHeartRadio app,

00:54:58.120 Apple Podcasts,

00:54:59.260 or wherever

00:55:00.160 you get your podcasts.

00:55:04.380 This notion

00:55:05.200 of citizenship,

00:55:06.400 I remember,

00:55:07.160 I think it was

00:55:07.420 Brandeis who said,

00:55:08.820 in a democracy,

00:55:09.520 the most important

00:55:10.140 office is office

00:55:10.980 of citizen,

00:55:11.720 this notion

00:55:12.160 that we have agency,

00:55:13.400 we can shape the future,

00:55:14.380 we're not bystanders.

00:55:15.420 Imagine it's imbued

00:55:16.180 in that spirit

00:55:17.020 of we the people,

00:55:18.380 this notion

00:55:18.680 of founding fathers.

00:55:20.800 Is that the antidote

00:55:22.160 at the end of the day?

00:55:23.060 I mean,

00:55:23.400 we the people

00:55:24.120 to the citizens

00:55:25.340 and the fear,

00:55:25.840 the anxiety

00:55:26.380 so many of us

00:55:27.240 are feeling,

00:55:27.780 does that give you

00:55:28.740 some optimism

00:55:30.020 at this moment

00:55:30.980 in particular

00:55:31.940 that this time

00:55:33.700 is not different,

00:55:35.240 that people

00:55:36.060 are rising up,

00:55:37.180 that these voices

00:55:37.820 are being shared

00:55:39.620 and heard

00:55:40.340 and we're inspiring

00:55:41.320 one another?

00:55:42.920 Or are you

00:55:43.500 a little more

00:55:44.000 sober and cynical?

00:55:45.740 No.

00:55:46.260 Where is your temperature

00:55:47.340 right now?

00:55:48.260 I'm not cynical.

00:55:49.720 I think,

00:55:50.580 and I'm not cynical

00:55:51.300 because of the

00:55:52.520 historical frame.

00:55:56.300 Four years

00:55:57.180 before I was born,

00:56:00.160 we lived

00:56:01.880 in my native region

00:56:03.440 under functional apartheid.

00:56:05.580 right?

00:56:07.360 So,

00:56:07.900 on March 7th,

00:56:10.160 1965,

00:56:12.000 John Lewis

00:56:13.080 and Hosea Williams

00:56:13.960 led that march

00:56:14.880 across the top

00:56:15.620 of the Pettis Bridge.

00:56:17.360 Anyone who has not

00:56:18.180 been to the Pettis Bridge

00:56:19.180 must go.

00:56:20.200 It's like going

00:56:20.680 to Omaha Beach.

00:56:22.580 And walked into,

00:56:24.960 peaceably,

00:56:26.320 a line of state troopers

00:56:28.340 and possemen

00:56:29.160 asking that

00:56:32.460 the

00:56:33.680 15th Amendment

00:56:35.100 of the Constitution

00:56:36.300 be,

00:56:38.580 again,

00:56:39.080 they weren't asking

00:56:39.700 for anything new.

00:56:41.360 They were asking us

00:56:42.580 to live up to,

00:56:44.080 to fulfill

00:56:44.860 what we said

00:56:46.200 we would do.

00:56:48.180 And

00:56:48.640 when,

00:56:50.900 that speech

00:56:51.600 written by Richard Goodwin,

00:56:53.740 when Lyndon Johnson

00:56:54.620 said,

00:56:55.000 I speak tonight

00:56:55.700 for the dignity

00:56:56.580 of man

00:56:57.100 and the destiny

00:56:57.680 of democracy,

00:56:58.500 and that

00:57:00.460 there are moments

00:57:01.980 in the life

00:57:02.660 of a nation

00:57:03.240 where they form

00:57:04.640 a turning point

00:57:05.380 in man's unending

00:57:06.220 search for freedom.

00:57:07.720 So it was

00:57:08.340 at Lexington Concord,

00:57:09.460 so it was at Appomattox,

00:57:10.680 so it was last week

00:57:11.600 in Selma, Alabama.

00:57:15.000 That was 20 minutes ago.

00:57:17.800 Right?

00:57:18.800 And it feels like,

00:57:19.740 you know,

00:57:19.900 and you see it on,

00:57:20.960 you know,

00:57:21.320 Ken Burns does it

00:57:22.380 and it feels,

00:57:23.160 because it's black and white,

00:57:25.000 it feels more remote.

00:57:26.640 Uh-uh.

00:57:27.560 Uh-uh.

00:57:28.500 1965.

00:57:31.440 Yep.

00:57:32.940 And

00:57:33.420 so if,

00:57:35.140 if,

00:57:35.880 and,

00:57:36.360 by the way,

00:57:37.340 right,

00:57:37.580 the 1964 Civil Rights Act,

00:57:40.120 which the Republican nominee

00:57:41.320 of the party

00:57:42.140 that year opposed,

00:57:44.060 um,

00:57:45.260 now seen,

00:57:46.480 polling shows,

00:57:47.240 the 64 Civil Rights Act

00:57:48.700 is seen as

00:57:49.220 more important than,

00:57:51.940 I think it's,

00:57:52.440 it's right before

00:57:53.460 the Kennedy assassination

00:57:54.520 and right after,

00:57:55.760 um,

00:57:57.340 the drum,

00:57:57.860 the dropping of the bombs,

00:57:58.900 uh,

00:57:59.780 in World War II.

00:58:00.620 I mean,

00:58:00.840 the public

00:58:01.480 sees the significance

00:58:03.220 of that.

00:58:05.140 What was it,

00:58:05.880 a 76-day filibuster?

00:58:08.300 Hmm.

00:58:08.980 Right.

00:58:09.720 Right?

00:58:09.960 So none of this is easy.

00:58:12.720 And so I,

00:58:14.980 you know,

00:58:16.060 John Lewis was willing to die,

00:58:20.780 you know,

00:58:21.880 and,

00:58:22.200 and I get tired by,

00:58:23.500 when I'm watching MSNBC, 0.95

00:58:24.920 that's ridiculous. 0.96

00:58:26.740 Right? 0.99

00:58:27.220 Right.

00:58:27.320 People shed their blood

00:58:29.980 for you and me.

00:58:31.900 And so I,

00:58:32.480 I think despair is,

00:58:33.600 and this is going to sound preachy,

00:58:35.340 but I say it about myself,

00:58:36.880 despair is a sin.

00:58:38.400 A sin.

00:58:39.380 Cynicism is a sin.

00:58:41.940 It's not up to us

00:58:43.180 to be,

00:58:43.620 to despair

00:58:44.520 or be cynical.

00:58:46.760 It's,

00:58:47.280 it's,

00:58:47.700 it's self-indulgent.

00:58:50.120 I love that.

00:58:51.180 It's interesting.

00:58:51.640 I just,

00:58:52.080 I'm reflecting now

00:58:52.900 in the year of my birth,

00:58:54.280 1967,

00:58:55.240 blacks couldn't marry whites 1.00

00:58:56.200 in over a dozen states 0.92

00:58:57.800 in this country,

00:58:58.420 overwhelming opposition publicly.

00:59:01.380 And then the infamous

00:59:02.660 Supreme Court decision,

00:59:04.220 which,

00:59:04.660 or more importantly,

00:59:05.660 the power of individuals

00:59:07.460 like Richard Loving

00:59:08.420 and Milgrit Jeter

00:59:09.700 that had the courage

00:59:10.780 of their conviction

00:59:11.400 to fight that

00:59:12.200 Loving versus state of Virginia,

00:59:14.520 overturning those laws,

00:59:15.460 not overturning public opinion though,

00:59:17.200 at the time,

00:59:17.940 overturning laws.

00:59:19.540 Well,

00:59:19.800 and to talk about another one

00:59:20.860 of your predecessors,

00:59:23.680 what,

00:59:25.880 how different

00:59:26.980 would America be

00:59:28.200 if

00:59:30.080 Earl Warren

00:59:31.700 had not become

00:59:33.640 chief justice?

00:59:35.980 And here's how close

00:59:37.400 that was,

00:59:39.200 right?

00:59:41.040 Fred Vinson,

00:59:42.340 the incumbent chief justice,

00:59:43.980 dies unexpectedly.

00:59:45.480 I don't think he was 60.

00:59:47.620 And

00:59:48.140 Warren was still,

00:59:50.680 he had,

00:59:51.060 I think,

00:59:51.960 some months to go

00:59:53.060 on his term.

00:59:54.860 And so Eisenhower

00:59:56.800 wasn't sure

00:59:57.500 he would want to come

00:59:58.920 and do the chief,

00:59:59.860 would want that job

01:00:01.240 at that moment.

01:00:02.960 And,

01:00:03.560 but Warren ended up

01:00:04.560 saying,

01:00:04.920 saying yes.

01:00:06.360 If Eisenhower

01:00:07.420 doesn't become president

01:00:08.320 in 1952,

01:00:10.200 and Robert Taft had,

01:00:11.640 or Adelaide Stevenson had, 0.96

01:00:13.360 I don't think Warren

01:00:15.040 becomes chief justice.

01:00:16.100 and the great story

01:00:19.980 of the death

01:00:20.700 of Jim Crow 0.82

01:00:21.480 doesn't begin

01:00:23.480 in Congress,

01:00:24.840 doesn't begin

01:00:25.960 with a president,

01:00:27.200 it begins

01:00:28.240 with the Supreme Court.

01:00:30.500 And the Warren

01:00:32.280 Court,

01:00:32.980 the reaction to which

01:00:34.400 shapes us

01:00:35.280 unto this hour,

01:00:37.200 right?

01:00:38.480 But

01:00:38.880 this is a

01:00:41.200 chancy

01:00:41.740 contingent thing.

01:00:43.400 And you never know

01:00:44.480 whether it's going

01:00:44.920 to be Article I

01:00:45.720 or Article II

01:00:46.460 or Article III

01:00:47.260 that's going

01:00:47.720 to make it happen.

01:00:49.640 So

01:00:49.840 it

01:00:50.820 absolutely

01:00:51.740 is,

01:00:53.280 what's thrilling

01:00:54.120 and terrifying

01:00:54.760 is I agree with you,

01:00:56.180 it's up to us.

01:00:57.500 And that's kind of

01:00:58.360 thrilling because

01:00:58.920 it's up to us.

01:01:00.280 And then on the other

01:01:00.820 hand,

01:01:01.040 it's like, 0.99

01:01:01.360 oh shit, 1.00

01:01:01.760 it's up to us. 1.00

01:01:02.540 You know,

01:01:02.860 why can't someone

01:01:04.180 come save us?

01:01:05.760 But no one's

01:01:06.600 going to do that.

01:01:07.480 Right?

01:01:08.020 There's not going

01:01:08.760 to be,

01:01:09.280 Fortinbras is not 1.00

01:01:10.400 coming.

01:01:11.240 We've got to do it.

01:01:13.220 I love that.

01:01:14.120 By the way,

01:01:14.600 I have pulled out

01:01:16.040 of,

01:01:16.860 dusted off

01:01:17.560 when I first

01:01:18.480 became Governor

01:01:19.100 Warren's desk.

01:01:20.180 We found it.

01:01:20.820 Oh wow,

01:01:21.320 did you?

01:01:21.800 In a storage facility

01:01:23.080 about six miles away.

01:01:25.840 And I remind people,

01:01:27.440 I mean,

01:01:27.680 it goes to the books

01:01:28.920 you've written.

01:01:29.500 I mean,

01:01:29.760 in the complexity

01:01:30.560 of this human

01:01:31.180 expression and experience.

01:01:32.960 I mean,

01:01:33.460 this is the same guy

01:01:34.060 who was interning

01:01:34.680 the Japanese as well.

01:01:35.880 You know,

01:01:37.500 it's messy.

01:01:39.800 A little humility,

01:01:41.060 grace.

01:01:42.240 Oh my God.

01:01:43.480 And

01:01:43.740 there's a,

01:01:46.620 you know,

01:01:47.340 there's a scene

01:01:50.140 from 1948,

01:01:53.560 maybe.

01:01:54.340 It was a little late.

01:01:55.260 There was a,

01:01:55.780 there was a

01:01:56.560 kind of a

01:01:57.800 post-war apology.

01:01:59.700 ultimately became

01:02:02.400 in the 80s.

01:02:03.200 It took us

01:02:03.420 to the 1980s

01:02:04.260 to do it

01:02:04.520 at the federal level.

01:02:05.560 But there's a scene

01:02:06.740 where a young actor

01:02:08.200 who was a big

01:02:09.260 New Deal

01:02:09.860 fair dealer

01:02:10.560 named Reagan

01:02:11.320 actually gives

01:02:13.220 a speech

01:02:13.880 attacking the

01:02:14.740 internment

01:02:15.220 of the Japanese

01:02:16.060 in Southern California.

01:02:21.580 No,

01:02:22.180 I think that there's

01:02:23.440 my other favorite

01:02:25.720 story about Warren

01:02:26.500 is,

01:02:26.880 you know,

01:02:27.040 he had no middle name

01:02:28.000 and he asked his father

01:02:29.640 why.

01:02:30.060 He said,

01:02:30.260 I couldn't afford one.

01:02:34.760 I love it.

01:02:35.900 And I can't afford

01:02:36.920 to let you go,

01:02:38.340 John,

01:02:38.640 without just talking

01:02:39.680 a little bit

01:02:40.140 about Biden

01:02:40.700 because,

01:02:41.660 you know,

01:02:41.880 it's not,

01:02:43.400 and it's,

01:02:43.760 it's,

01:02:44.320 frankly,

01:02:44.600 it's been a little

01:02:45.500 upsetting to me

01:02:46.220 and how quick

01:02:47.000 my Democratic

01:02:47.800 colleagues

01:02:49.020 and,

01:02:49.640 you know,

01:02:50.480 not my consultants

01:02:51.480 but other

01:02:52.140 pundits and consultants

01:02:53.520 of the party

01:02:53.960 say,

01:02:54.280 well,

01:02:54.380 we just need to,

01:02:55.120 let's stop

01:02:55.560 looking in the rearview mirror

01:02:56.840 talking about Biden

01:02:57.940 except so much

01:02:59.480 of what we're talking

01:03:00.120 about is in the rearview mirror

01:03:01.120 that we began

01:03:02.380 more contemporary

01:03:03.140 terms with Trump.

01:03:04.620 But I do want

01:03:05.620 to reflect,

01:03:06.280 how do you,

01:03:07.060 I mean,

01:03:07.520 there's not a lot

01:03:08.280 of distance

01:03:08.800 and you obviously,

01:03:11.020 you have,

01:03:11.340 you've noted

01:03:12.420 your own subjectivity

01:03:14.200 as it relates

01:03:14.780 to your relationship

01:03:15.700 with President Biden

01:03:17.360 and I,

01:03:17.660 and I have

01:03:18.320 my subjectivity

01:03:19.460 that I wear

01:03:20.020 on my sleeve.

01:03:20.720 I openly

01:03:21.480 advocate

01:03:22.480 for his policy

01:03:23.760 successes

01:03:24.700 and his character.

01:03:26.760 What,

01:03:26.980 how do you,

01:03:27.340 what do you,

01:03:27.740 where do you think

01:03:28.320 he starts to land

01:03:29.400 and when do you

01:03:30.580 start to land

01:03:31.400 more favorably

01:03:32.600 in historic terms?

01:03:34.140 Meaning,

01:03:34.700 when do people

01:03:35.400 sort of open up

01:03:36.600 or are we just,

01:03:38.540 you know,

01:03:38.760 is this,

01:03:39.480 this just evolves

01:03:40.540 organically?

01:03:42.220 I,

01:03:42.980 I think about this a lot

01:03:44.280 and I thought

01:03:46.140 you're,

01:03:47.540 I thought you were

01:03:49.020 a stand-up guy

01:03:49.880 and watched that

01:03:51.660 with,

01:03:52.040 with admiration.

01:03:53.620 Um,

01:03:55.340 so,

01:03:56.180 here's where I,

01:03:57.980 here's what I think.

01:03:58.820 Uh,

01:03:59.640 and I've told him

01:04:00.340 this,

01:04:00.880 so,

01:04:01.360 um,

01:04:02.320 the legacy

01:04:05.340 question

01:04:06.780 will be,

01:04:08.480 I think,

01:04:10.000 a key factor

01:04:10.920 in how that turns

01:04:12.100 out

01:04:12.440 is about the

01:04:13.820 2028 election.

01:04:16.060 Right?

01:04:17.420 So,

01:04:19.460 does,

01:04:20.380 does the

01:04:21.880 MAGA moment,

01:04:23.020 does this become

01:04:24.180 a 12-year

01:04:25.120 chapter

01:04:25.700 in which

01:04:27.960 President Biden

01:04:30.700 is

01:04:31.380 the Trump

01:04:33.260 slayer

01:04:36.360 in 2020,

01:04:37.480 but then,

01:04:39.420 and I would argue

01:04:41.140 it is

01:04:41.920 somewhat

01:04:43.520 Shakespearean,

01:04:44.660 it's certainly

01:04:45.100 Greek,

01:04:45.940 what happened

01:04:46.480 to him,

01:04:47.300 the forces

01:04:47.940 that

01:04:49.140 led Joe

01:04:51.360 Biden

01:04:51.760 and enabled

01:04:53.540 him to

01:04:54.340 overcome

01:04:54.800 and endure

01:04:55.820 amid tragedies

01:04:57.220 that would

01:04:57.640 put the rest

01:04:58.800 of us

01:04:59.360 in the

01:05:00.140 ground

01:05:00.820 from 1972

01:05:02.460 forward,

01:05:03.480 from the loss

01:05:04.220 of his wife

01:05:05.060 and daughter

01:05:06.520 to the loss

01:05:07.860 of his son

01:05:08.780 to aneurysms

01:05:10.420 to the political

01:05:11.940 ups and downs,

01:05:13.220 he endured

01:05:15.640 and

01:05:17.540 we all

01:05:18.980 have,

01:05:19.780 as the

01:05:20.200 French said,

01:05:20.860 the vices

01:05:21.320 of our

01:05:21.720 virtues

01:05:22.080 and I

01:05:23.660 think that

01:05:24.240 he genuinely

01:05:25.220 believed he

01:05:26.060 was the only

01:05:26.580 person who

01:05:27.240 could be

01:05:27.760 Donald Trump.

01:05:31.380 I don't

01:05:32.100 necessarily think

01:05:32.720 that was true

01:05:33.340 but as a

01:05:34.700 sort of

01:05:35.640 as someone

01:05:35.980 who makes

01:05:36.360 his living

01:05:36.860 looking at

01:05:38.200 either dead

01:05:39.440 people or

01:05:39.960 old people 0.85

01:05:40.500 and trying to

01:05:41.020 figure out

01:05:41.340 why they

01:05:41.660 do what

01:05:41.960 they do,

01:05:42.380 I understand

01:05:42.940 it.

01:05:43.720 The forces

01:05:44.520 that got

01:05:45.100 him to

01:05:45.440 the

01:05:45.620 pinnacle

01:05:46.060 kept him

01:05:48.380 from stepping

01:05:49.440 away from

01:05:49.980 it.

01:05:50.920 I don't

01:05:51.440 think it

01:05:51.680 was love

01:05:52.060 of power,

01:05:52.820 I really

01:05:53.240 don't,

01:05:53.720 I don't

01:05:54.020 think it

01:05:54.300 was the

01:05:54.600 helicopter

01:05:55.100 or the

01:05:55.480 airplane,

01:05:56.320 I think

01:05:56.720 it was

01:05:57.040 that what

01:05:59.100 Joe Biden

01:05:59.840 does is

01:06:01.240 he endures

01:06:01.920 and I

01:06:03.740 think that

01:06:04.220 was the

01:06:04.840 key thing

01:06:05.440 there.

01:06:07.100 But if

01:06:07.980 this becomes

01:06:08.620 a 12

01:06:09.180 year chapter

01:06:10.300 then

01:06:12.220 President

01:06:13.680 Biden

01:06:14.020 becomes

01:06:14.720 the sane

01:06:15.780 island

01:06:16.560 between

01:06:17.140 the two

01:06:19.060 Trump

01:06:19.360 terms.

01:06:20.620 If

01:06:20.860 MAGA-ism 0.91

01:06:22.820 in some

01:06:23.480 form is

01:06:24.260 ratified

01:06:24.860 again

01:06:25.440 in

01:06:27.000 2028

01:06:28.220 it becomes

01:06:29.740 a harder

01:06:30.120 case to

01:06:30.600 make for

01:06:31.000 Biden.

01:06:32.880 It's

01:06:33.420 interesting.

01:06:33.920 How concerned

01:06:34.680 and just

01:06:36.020 with limited

01:06:36.780 time are

01:06:38.220 you about

01:06:40.400 the

01:06:41.440 midterms

01:06:42.200 election

01:06:43.200 integrity

01:06:43.800 about

01:06:45.160 this

01:06:47.640 anxiety

01:06:49.880 that

01:06:50.520 appears

01:06:51.440 very real

01:06:52.420 evidence

01:06:53.140 abundant

01:06:53.740 demanding

01:06:55.040 voter rolls

01:06:55.880 as conditions

01:06:56.980 for removal

01:06:57.580 of ice

01:06:58.040 in

01:06:58.780 Minnesota.

01:07:00.040 We're in

01:07:01.020 litigation on

01:07:01.700 that same

01:07:02.220 subject matter.

01:07:03.560 We talk

01:07:04.360 about the

01:07:04.960 Japanese

01:07:05.360 internment

01:07:05.940 first time

01:07:07.140 I met

01:07:07.680 this masked

01:07:08.460 man

01:07:08.820 Greg

01:07:09.820 Bovino.

01:07:10.620 It was

01:07:10.900 at

01:07:11.260 Little

01:07:11.920 Tokyo

01:07:12.320 in Los

01:07:12.840 Angeles

01:07:13.260 at the

01:07:13.720 Democracy

01:07:14.120 Center.

01:07:14.600 It was a

01:07:14.840 sacred site

01:07:15.440 where we

01:07:15.820 were interning

01:07:16.760 the Japanese

01:07:17.960 when Reagan

01:07:18.500 made that

01:07:19.520 speech in

01:07:20.300 Southern

01:07:20.880 California

01:07:21.680 to see what

01:07:22.820 happened with

01:07:23.660 what I

01:07:24.380 have coined

01:07:25.460 more of the

01:07:25.920 rigging,

01:07:26.660 the response

01:07:27.760 to that with

01:07:28.160 Prop 50,

01:07:28.980 the mid-decade

01:07:30.840 redistricting,

01:07:31.840 so many

01:07:33.120 things around

01:07:33.860 I won't say

01:07:34.880 voter ID

01:07:35.420 necessarily but

01:07:36.320 component parts

01:07:37.220 of what this

01:07:38.620 administration is

01:07:39.560 trying to do.

01:07:39.980 How worried

01:07:40.500 are you

01:07:40.920 about our

01:07:42.040 institutions

01:07:42.700 holding

01:07:43.280 and the

01:07:45.940 success of

01:07:46.980 free and

01:07:47.620 fair elections

01:07:48.360 in 2026

01:07:49.580 let alone

01:07:50.340 2028?

01:07:52.080 So you've

01:07:52.840 linked two

01:07:54.160 questions that I

01:07:54.940 think are

01:07:55.260 vital and

01:07:56.480 I think

01:07:56.860 given what you

01:07:57.880 do all day

01:07:58.940 you'll appreciate

01:07:59.640 this I hope.

01:08:00.340 this is not

01:08:01.780 about the

01:08:03.280 durability of

01:08:04.340 democracy is

01:08:05.300 not about

01:08:05.880 institutions.

01:08:07.700 It's about

01:08:08.520 the people

01:08:09.160 in them.

01:08:10.920 It's not

01:08:11.680 about the

01:08:12.280 courts.

01:08:13.060 It's about

01:08:13.820 judges.

01:08:15.480 Right?

01:08:15.760 It's not

01:08:16.200 about the

01:08:16.700 election system.

01:08:17.620 It's about

01:08:17.880 registrars and

01:08:19.360 secretaries of

01:08:19.960 state.

01:08:20.200 It is about

01:08:20.960 people.

01:08:22.680 And that's

01:08:23.460 why the

01:08:24.160 stories matter.

01:08:26.040 Do you

01:08:26.320 want to be

01:08:27.360 Mike Pence

01:08:28.520 who stood

01:08:29.920 up and

01:08:30.260 anyone who

01:08:30.760 said I

01:08:31.400 have liberal

01:08:31.820 friends who

01:08:32.380 say why

01:08:33.280 do you

01:08:33.580 praise him?

01:08:34.220 He just

01:08:34.480 did his

01:08:34.820 duty.

01:08:35.820 They are not

01:08:37.140 someone who's

01:08:37.720 ever sat in

01:08:38.380 the Oval

01:08:38.740 Office and

01:08:39.300 been yelled

01:08:39.760 at by a

01:08:40.320 president.

01:08:41.460 Right?

01:08:42.320 And I know

01:08:43.360 that seems

01:08:44.000 sort of

01:08:44.540 facile or

01:08:45.480 but anybody

01:08:47.600 you know

01:08:48.400 this.

01:08:49.900 I once

01:08:50.180 went into

01:08:50.780 the moment

01:08:54.420 that I've

01:08:56.580 been waiting

01:08:56.880 for since I

01:08:57.320 was six

01:08:57.700 years old

01:08:58.180 with President

01:08:58.880 Biden and

01:08:59.980 he brought

01:09:00.560 me in

01:09:01.200 the Oval

01:09:03.420 Office,

01:09:03.960 the sunlight's

01:09:04.780 coming in,

01:09:05.480 the dust

01:09:05.940 moats.

01:09:06.460 I can smell

01:09:07.220 FDR cigarettes.

01:09:09.240 You know,

01:09:09.580 this is the

01:09:10.040 great, I've

01:09:10.600 been waiting

01:09:11.000 for this,

01:09:11.700 right?

01:09:12.120 I sit in

01:09:12.900 the chair

01:09:13.420 that Bobby

01:09:14.000 Kennedy sat

01:09:14.800 in during the

01:09:15.400 missile crisis

01:09:16.000 and President

01:09:16.720 Biden asked

01:09:17.280 me a question

01:09:17.800 and I

01:09:18.640 started, I

01:09:19.120 can't remember

01:09:19.360 what the

01:09:19.480 question was,

01:09:19.860 and I

01:09:20.100 started talking

01:09:20.780 and it was

01:09:21.680 blah, blah,

01:09:22.540 blah, blah,

01:09:23.300 blah.

01:09:23.640 It was

01:09:24.040 better angels.

01:09:24.820 Blah, blah,

01:09:25.340 blah, we

01:09:25.800 the few.

01:09:26.240 I didn't

01:09:26.740 make a 0.98

01:09:27.100 goddamn bit 0.99

01:09:27.800 of sense. 0.99

01:09:28.760 And so I

01:09:29.060 finally just

01:09:29.420 stopped.

01:09:30.640 This is a

01:09:30.960 true story.

01:09:32.140 And later

01:09:32.700 that day,

01:09:33.340 we were in

01:09:34.100 the dining

01:09:34.440 room, you

01:09:35.820 know, down

01:09:36.040 the little

01:09:36.320 hall, and I

01:09:37.560 was feeling

01:09:37.980 guilty about

01:09:38.580 this.

01:09:38.920 I'd taken

01:09:39.240 the President

01:09:39.860 of the United

01:09:40.100 States has

01:09:40.600 limited time,

01:09:41.740 right?

01:09:42.620 So it was

01:09:43.340 just the two

01:09:43.780 of us.

01:09:44.180 And I said,

01:09:44.480 Mr. President,

01:09:45.300 I want to

01:09:45.680 apologize to you.

01:09:46.640 You asked me a

01:09:47.200 question back

01:09:47.820 there and I

01:09:48.280 just didn't

01:09:48.680 make any sense

01:09:49.280 at all.

01:09:50.200 Now, you're

01:09:51.580 a politician.

01:09:52.220 what you

01:09:53.660 say at that

01:09:54.360 point is

01:09:54.840 anything you

01:09:55.960 say is so

01:09:56.660 important that

01:09:57.520 I'm just

01:09:58.080 grateful you're

01:09:58.760 here, right?

01:09:59.380 That's what you

01:09:59.880 said.

01:10:00.580 You know what

01:10:00.940 Biden said?

01:10:01.760 He said,

01:10:02.080 that's okay.

01:10:03.560 It happens a

01:10:04.140 lot in there.

01:10:06.020 Terrible.

01:10:07.620 Yeah, you

01:10:08.420 didn't make a 0.99

01:10:08.920 goddamn bit of 0.99

01:10:09.580 sense. 0.99

01:10:10.580 Okay.

01:10:12.360 Anyway, so

01:10:13.400 but do you

01:10:14.320 want to be,

01:10:15.740 if you are an

01:10:16.260 election official,

01:10:17.820 I just, the

01:10:18.700 story I would

01:10:19.480 want you to

01:10:20.120 think about is

01:10:21.640 you will be

01:10:23.620 honored beyond

01:10:25.360 the grave if

01:10:28.280 you do the

01:10:29.600 right thing.

01:10:31.600 And the

01:10:34.700 grave is

01:10:36.140 certain.

01:10:38.280 Donald Trump's

01:10:39.020 approval is

01:10:40.520 not.

01:10:42.920 I love that.

01:10:44.540 And because I

01:10:45.600 can't help

01:10:46.000 myself, we

01:10:46.620 could end

01:10:46.980 there, but

01:10:47.860 you brought

01:10:48.240 up Bobby

01:10:48.820 Kennedy.

01:10:49.180 And if

01:10:51.600 you look

01:10:51.840 behind me,

01:10:52.720 there's

01:10:53.060 various parts

01:10:54.060 of this

01:10:54.720 shrine in

01:10:55.780 front of

01:10:56.000 me.

01:10:56.680 All things

01:10:57.380 Bobby,

01:10:58.400 Sarge

01:10:58.720 Shriver.

01:10:59.760 I'm a fan

01:11:00.580 of the

01:11:00.840 60s.

01:11:01.300 The

01:11:01.380 vernacular

01:11:01.800 60s is a 0.67

01:11:02.660 picture of

01:11:03.380 Bobby and

01:11:03.760 my dad.

01:11:04.480 Is that

01:11:04.660 your dad?

01:11:05.480 Right here.

01:11:06.080 Yeah.

01:11:06.440 When my dad

01:11:06.920 was campaigning

01:11:07.520 for state

01:11:08.000 senate, Bobby

01:11:09.220 was out

01:11:09.640 here.

01:11:10.300 Literally a

01:11:10.900 few weeks

01:11:11.220 later, his

01:11:12.980 life was

01:11:13.400 taken.

01:11:13.680 So I

01:11:15.020 think about

01:11:15.360 the 60s

01:11:16.040 and the

01:11:16.800 vernacular

01:11:17.240 60s, solving

01:11:18.080 for ignorance,

01:11:19.140 poverty and

01:11:19.920 disease, the

01:11:22.140 spirit that

01:11:24.360 defined those

01:11:25.120 days, but

01:11:25.480 also the

01:11:25.860 tragedies, the

01:11:26.640 setbacks, the

01:11:27.700 travails that

01:11:28.460 were obviously

01:11:29.180 well-established

01:11:30.940 through assassination

01:11:31.620 and so much

01:11:32.880 despair and

01:11:34.080 distrust and

01:11:35.180 obviously war

01:11:35.840 that shaped

01:11:36.620 it.

01:11:37.260 How do you

01:11:39.260 reflect on

01:11:40.040 that time

01:11:42.260 in relationship

01:11:43.480 to this

01:11:44.160 moment and

01:11:44.800 the moment

01:11:45.240 that we

01:11:45.960 were just

01:11:46.380 discussing

01:11:46.940 moving forward

01:11:48.560 and the

01:11:49.060 moments

01:11:49.360 together?

01:11:50.080 It's a great

01:11:50.580 question,

01:11:50.940 Godra.

01:11:51.080 I find hope

01:11:52.180 in this

01:11:52.660 because if

01:11:53.980 you think

01:11:54.220 about 1968,

01:11:55.600 as you

01:11:55.940 just mentioned,

01:11:56.980 so it

01:11:58.720 begins with

01:11:59.300 Tatt,

01:12:01.480 Gene

01:12:02.320 McCarthy's

01:12:02.900 already running

01:12:03.440 against LBJ,

01:12:04.560 nearly upsets

01:12:05.300 him in

01:12:05.580 New Hampshire.

01:12:08.800 Senator

01:12:09.440 Kennedy gets

01:12:10.040 in the race

01:12:10.480 on March

01:12:10.880 16th, so

01:12:11.820 late,

01:12:12.260 March 31st,

01:12:16.420 Johnson gets

01:12:17.080 out of the

01:12:17.440 race and 0.82

01:12:18.580 that morning

01:12:19.180 Dr. King

01:12:19.920 delivers the

01:12:20.880 Sunday sermon

01:12:21.560 at Washington

01:12:22.140 National Cathedral.

01:12:23.660 He offers the

01:12:24.120 best definition

01:12:24.680 of democracy

01:12:25.340 I've ever

01:12:26.600 heard, which

01:12:27.080 is, I can

01:12:28.380 never be what

01:12:28.880 I ought to

01:12:29.360 be until

01:12:29.780 you are what

01:12:30.380 you ought to

01:12:30.900 be.

01:12:31.480 You can

01:12:31.840 never be

01:12:32.100 what you

01:12:32.400 ought to

01:12:32.760 be until

01:12:33.180 I am

01:12:33.500 what I

01:12:33.820 ought to

01:12:34.160 be.

01:12:34.700 That's

01:12:35.000 the way

01:12:35.220 God's

01:12:35.600 universe

01:12:35.840 is made.

01:12:36.520 That's

01:12:36.740 the way

01:12:37.020 it is

01:12:37.300 structured.

01:12:38.940 Four days

01:12:39.560 later, he

01:12:39.980 shot to

01:12:40.440 death in

01:12:40.880 Memphis.

01:12:41.180 Six weeks

01:12:42.500 after that,

01:12:43.540 Senator

01:12:44.000 Kennedy is

01:12:44.500 killed.

01:12:44.980 Six weeks

01:12:45.280 after that,

01:12:45.860 the Chicago

01:12:46.280 Convention

01:12:46.800 disintegrates

01:12:47.620 into chaos

01:12:48.100 and violence.

01:12:49.220 On election

01:12:49.680 day 1968,

01:12:51.740 Nixon narrowly

01:12:53.520 defeats

01:12:53.860 Humphrey,

01:12:54.880 but something

01:12:55.540 we forget,

01:12:56.880 George Wallace

01:12:57.660 won 13.5%

01:12:59.800 of the vote

01:13:00.380 and carried

01:13:00.960 five states

01:13:01.840 in 1968.

01:13:03.940 Five states

01:13:04.580 in the

01:13:05.000 Electoral

01:13:05.220 College.

01:13:07.660 And so

01:13:08.160 why didn't

01:13:09.640 we,

01:13:10.600 oh, and

01:13:11.320 my father

01:13:12.200 fought in

01:13:12.580 Vietnam,

01:13:14.120 46 Americans

01:13:15.940 on average

01:13:16.700 died a day

01:13:17.900 in Vietnam

01:13:18.820 in 1968.

01:13:20.240 Not wounded,

01:13:21.320 not died.

01:13:23.060 So why

01:13:24.640 didn't we

01:13:25.280 fall apart

01:13:25.980 then?

01:13:26.340 Right?

01:13:27.980 And I'm

01:13:28.700 very soft

01:13:29.320 on President

01:13:31.200 Nixon on

01:13:31.820 this front.

01:13:33.120 He governed

01:13:34.120 from the

01:13:34.500 center.

01:13:37.400 EPA

01:13:38.000 proposed a

01:13:39.140 health care

01:13:39.560 plan.

01:13:40.400 Obama would

01:13:41.000 never have

01:13:41.500 proposed.

01:13:42.660 It was too

01:13:42.980 far to the

01:13:43.280 left.

01:13:43.800 He was

01:13:44.260 Andrew Yang

01:13:44.920 before Andrew

01:13:45.540 Yang,

01:13:45.860 right?

01:13:46.280 Proposed a

01:13:46.800 guaranteed

01:13:47.140 income.

01:13:47.720 goes to

01:13:49.760 China and

01:13:51.320 had the

01:13:52.960 capacity

01:13:53.660 to,

01:13:56.780 when he

01:13:57.000 broke the

01:13:57.500 law,

01:13:58.240 he followed

01:13:59.080 the law.

01:14:00.380 He had a

01:14:00.740 sense of

01:14:01.120 shame.

01:14:03.280 And I

01:14:04.460 think

01:14:04.880 that a

01:14:07.180 lot of

01:14:07.740 the reason

01:14:09.020 things didn't

01:14:10.100 end in a

01:14:11.620 more serious

01:14:12.160 way was

01:14:13.900 that Nixon,

01:14:15.680 for all

01:14:16.400 of his

01:14:16.680 manifold

01:14:17.140 faults,

01:14:19.080 believed

01:14:19.740 fundamentally

01:14:20.980 in the

01:14:21.340 things we're

01:14:21.700 talking about,

01:14:23.080 about the

01:14:23.720 Constitution,

01:14:24.320 about we

01:14:24.680 the people.

01:14:25.600 And I'm

01:14:25.980 not praising

01:14:28.180 him beyond

01:14:28.820 measure, I

01:14:29.440 don't think.

01:14:30.320 But I've

01:14:30.820 thought a lot

01:14:31.300 about why

01:14:32.000 did we come

01:14:33.700 out of the

01:14:34.100 60s as a

01:14:36.180 country that

01:14:37.160 was still

01:14:38.400 together?

01:14:40.980 What do you

01:14:41.700 think?

01:14:42.000 I mean, you've

01:14:42.380 thought about

01:14:42.700 this.

01:14:43.000 If you

01:14:44.300 look at

01:14:44.680 68, it's

01:14:46.060 a totally

01:14:46.560 plausible

01:14:47.040 thing to

01:14:48.800 think that

01:14:49.200 69 and

01:14:49.860 70 are

01:14:52.060 not happy

01:14:54.980 times.

01:14:56.500 Why do you

01:14:58.600 think we

01:14:58.920 endured?

01:15:00.060 It's the

01:15:01.300 question I

01:15:01.820 pose to

01:15:02.260 you as an

01:15:02.760 historian to

01:15:03.340 really reflect

01:15:03.900 on.

01:15:04.620 And it's

01:15:05.300 the right

01:15:05.620 question.

01:15:06.760 That decade

01:15:07.720 fascinates me

01:15:08.660 for all the

01:15:09.460 reasons you

01:15:10.000 brilliantly just

01:15:11.540 laid out.

01:15:12.140 I think it's

01:15:13.360 also in the

01:15:14.300 context of

01:15:15.760 what we

01:15:16.860 didn't get a

01:15:17.380 chance to

01:15:17.700 talk about in

01:15:18.280 I'm Sensitive

01:15:18.700 Time, in the

01:15:20.540 spirit of

01:15:20.920 scripture too.

01:15:21.800 On earth, God's

01:15:22.700 work is truly

01:15:23.240 our own.

01:15:23.740 This notion

01:15:24.180 that we are

01:15:25.500 all bound

01:15:25.860 together by a

01:15:26.500 web of

01:15:26.740 mutuality.

01:15:27.480 This notion

01:15:27.940 of the

01:15:29.120 commonwealth and

01:15:29.900 this capacity

01:15:30.640 of resilience and

01:15:32.200 our ability to

01:15:33.180 live together and

01:15:33.960 advance together

01:15:34.640 across differences.

01:15:35.740 And that was

01:15:36.880 expressed in so

01:15:37.780 many of those

01:15:38.160 leaders at the

01:15:38.700 time and imbued

01:15:39.480 in the action of

01:15:40.860 so many of us

01:15:41.620 citizens that

01:15:42.800 senses were

01:15:44.280 alive and his

01:15:45.400 immune system was

01:15:46.220 woken up and

01:15:48.020 organized and

01:15:50.020 came together.

01:15:51.860 And so, look,

01:15:52.840 it's the one

01:15:54.320 thing.

01:15:54.800 For people that

01:15:55.820 despair about this

01:15:57.080 moment, I think it's

01:15:57.900 so important, this

01:15:59.280 conversation, to

01:16:00.180 sort of reflect on

01:16:01.020 the fact we've been

01:16:02.060 there before.

01:16:02.700 It's distinctive and

01:16:03.560 unique as this

01:16:05.400 moment is and the

01:16:06.260 unique characteristics

01:16:07.140 that define a guy

01:16:08.140 who is obsessed

01:16:09.060 with power,

01:16:09.780 dominance, and

01:16:10.360 aggression, who

01:16:11.580 doesn't believe in

01:16:12.400 empathy, care, and

01:16:13.540 compassion, necessarily.

01:16:16.500 But to reconcile the

01:16:17.820 fact that we have,

01:16:19.080 again, agency and we

01:16:20.180 can shape the future.

01:16:21.760 I said, before, we're

01:16:22.580 not bystanders in this

01:16:23.620 world.

01:16:24.380 And I think that's, to

01:16:25.400 me, the most, I

01:16:26.560 think, significant

01:16:27.500 lesson looking back

01:16:29.360 and what I think we're

01:16:31.660 experiencing.

01:16:32.340 There's the lessons

01:16:32.820 we're experiencing on a

01:16:33.720 daily basis in

01:16:34.920 Minneapolis and cities

01:16:36.720 across this country.

01:16:37.780 I think people are

01:16:38.540 waking up and it

01:16:39.780 gives me a lot more

01:16:40.760 confidence that we'll

01:16:42.760 be celebrating the

01:16:44.120 300th anniversary of

01:16:46.360 the Declaration of

01:16:47.120 Independence and you'll 1.00

01:16:47.880 be on your 300th book,

01:16:49.960 John Mitchell.

01:16:51.880 I'll be long gone, my

01:16:53.580 friend.

01:16:54.020 At this pace, at this

01:16:55.820 pace, author of

01:16:58.000 America's Struggle, best

01:16:59.160 way to buy it, is in

01:17:00.220 bulk.

01:17:03.800 And coming soon to a

01:17:05.700 book story near your

01:17:06.720 Eisenhower in the

01:17:08.360 military-industrial

01:17:09.460 complex.

01:17:10.180 I don't know, what's

01:17:10.640 your subtitle?

01:17:11.300 You don't even have it

01:17:11.940 yet.

01:17:12.280 I don't even have a

01:17:12.900 subtitle yet. 0.99

01:17:13.620 I'll tell you one damn 0.95

01:17:14.400 thing, it is awfully 0.98

01:17:15.320 long.

01:17:15.800 My first, I'll leave you

01:17:17.100 with this, my first

01:17:19.100 draft of my biography of

01:17:20.500 George H.W. Bush was

01:17:21.780 about 1,200 pages.

01:17:23.760 And I told Barbara

01:17:24.640 Bush that, and she 1.00

01:17:25.800 said, sweetheart, I

01:17:27.820 wouldn't read 1,200

01:17:28.660 pages about you.

01:17:31.840 They cut like butter.

01:17:33.740 Governor, go get

01:17:34.540 them.

01:17:34.860 You're doing great.

01:17:36.080 Appreciate you.

01:17:36.920 Thanks so much for

01:17:37.600 coming on.

01:17:38.500 Thanks.

01:17:43.640 This is an iHeart

01:17:44.660 podcast.

01:17:46.520 Guaranteed human.

This is Gavin Newsom - February 13, 2026

And, This Is What The Founding Fathers Were Worried About With Jon Meacham

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