00:06:06.320So what do you make then of the college graduate and the unemployment rates that legitimately, at least numerically, statistically, what's the causation of that?
00:06:15.980How would you factor AI in that respect?
00:06:18.240What do you think more broadly is the reason that those numbers are higher?
00:06:21.380Well, I think what is factually case is that a wide range of businesses are like, we don't know if we should be hiring new entry level people right now.
00:06:31.180some of it's like well we're doing layoffs because we hired too many people during the pandemic and
00:06:36.880and and then did this whole remote work thing which is not really working out and we're refactoring
00:06:42.180it and and then there is oh and uh and now we've got trade war going on with global tariffs
00:06:51.700which are increasing cost to consumers cost the businesses cost and so like like and we got
00:06:57.620volatility central like hey it's july we're starting a new war right like you know so it's
00:07:04.900like like in all those cases what businesses do the very first thing they do is let's not incur
00:07:11.180any new expenses it's let's not hire any new people except the very clear people we need
00:07:16.380entry levels are usually like oh these are people we need five years from now well we don't know we
00:07:21.300need five years from now so let's not do that it's also let's not do a new lease let's not like it's
00:07:26.300like let's let's just chill so that's the primary driving actual factor now that being said and by
00:07:34.260the way there are a few places which are um ai related like for example the meta layoffs are
00:07:40.440we need to free up costs for spending on compute and so we're going to do so it's not that there's
00:07:45.960zero it's just that the broad brush you know kind of college grad is not actually in fact yet like
00:07:55.240if it's a percentage from ai it's like five it's not you know it's not 30 or 50 so you talk about
00:08:02.240i mean some that have used some pretty aggressive language about a white collar blood bath but i
00:08:08.100mean you and i don't know if dario said that or not but i mean it did it was not surprising on
00:08:13.080the basis of the question i'll ask which is i mean obviously he's because of his emphasis and
00:08:18.080he put a numeric about 50 percent of white collar jobs be eliminated at least new white collar jobs
00:08:43.760He's like, look, I think that there's a real worry here
00:08:46.080and it's not on, like, society should be ready.
00:08:50.280i'm trying to help society figure out getting ready so i appreciate dario's principle his
00:08:58.060motivation etc now after he said that i called dario and i said look what you said is not heard
00:09:04.780the way you think it's heard right because what people hear is well if that's going to create a
00:09:11.060huge bloodbath and that's the outcome why are you building ai so fast why are you doing all this
00:09:15.160stuff right is it just to make yourself rich right because what they hear is they hear the
00:09:19.860hey everyone i have this really great technology that's going to like ruin half of your lives
00:09:26.100and good for me and sucks to be you right that's what they hear that's not what you meant to say
00:09:32.540but that's what they hear and so um and so i was like look i think the i said dario the better
00:09:38.900thing to say is we're gonna have a lot of job transition and there's a lot of uncertainty
00:09:43.760what's going on and it could have a really quick, massive impact. And we should be figuring out what
00:09:49.040to do on it. Right. Right. And is that, so, I mean, you've talked about it in the terms of a
00:09:53.620cognitive industrial revolution and you talked about not being Poland, uh, rather be England,
00:09:59.840take advantage of this. And, and that's, and you've done that in the context of making the case that
00:10:04.380we, you know, we should be accelerists though, probably with the notion of a steer. Yes. Uh,
00:10:09.660so you're not naive. Sometimes you slow down on the curve and slow down on the curve. Uh,
00:10:13.740But vehemently opposed to the sort of precautionary principle framework, this notion of this is, you know, we've just got to put a damn pause on all of this.0.76
00:10:23.240So let's start with the pause because it's simple, which is say you issue a call for a pause and you have two groups of people, the group of people who pause and the group of people who don't pause.
00:10:33.300The group of people who pause will go, oh, I hear you.
00:10:35.220The humanist stuff really matters and I care.
00:13:32.520And it's a little bit of saying, oh, implying that this is a Constitution is not really – like, a Constitution is a sacred document for me.
00:14:09.980And that's along the lines, I mean, you and I have had these conversations over the years
00:14:13.440and California's regulatory framework, SB 53, which we advanced, was around this issue
00:14:18.220of transparency for frontier models, these large language models.
00:14:22.020What about this, you know, I think from your perspective, it'd be interesting to hear your perspective about some of those contours.
00:14:28.340I mean, we talk about Dario as the, you know, the good guy.
00:14:31.360And for a lot of folks, that's through purely political lens because of some of the issues he had with P. Hexick and the Department of War issues around mythos, which I'm interested in your take on mythos and the fact that he pulled that back, what that means or what that suggests.
00:14:46.400But it also has the origin story that played out very publicly with Sam Altman, with Elon Musk, all those origin stories of which you had a front seat, sir.
00:14:57.940Front seat and participation in some of it.
00:15:00.380An actual board seat as it relates to open AI.
00:18:08.860We say, well, any company that has profitability of above X per employee now has an extra tax that's used to pay for all the rest of society.
00:18:20.500And if you own that industry, you can do that.
00:18:23.660If you don't own that industry, it's a little bit like when people say, hey, I hate these social networks.
00:18:29.460And by the way, there's some real social network issues, although I always, to my own defense, point to LinkedIn.
00:18:34.700One of the few, if not the only social network that actually had no – I mean, right?
00:18:47.320But if you said, hey, we banned social networks, even ignoring the LinkedIn question, it's like, well, would you want it to be only Chinese social networks?
00:19:35.800But it's like, okay, what are the things we do in order to do that?
00:19:38.420Now, I do want to wrap back to one of the things before because I think this is very important given, you know, we've seen, you know, American college students going, I hate AI, right?
00:25:07.760which is basically there will no longer be – there will be very few human jobs that are just humans by themselves.
00:25:15.540We will all have teams of agents that are working with us and doing.
00:25:19.620But actually, in fact, what you can see from the pattern of already looking at it is you actually get to some pretty incredible increases in performance
00:25:28.960where the human brings in the things that the AIs don't have.
00:25:33.100And look, one of the questions is will the AIs not have those for a long time?
00:25:44.520Like this whole like human beings will be replaced and we'll have our cognitive faculties goes all the way back to the printing press and writing.
00:25:52.120Like I actually think there's areas where we make good judgment.
00:25:56.360Like people say, oh, my God, look at cloud code.
00:25:59.260Like there's no need for engineers anymore.
00:26:00.900Well, I actually talked to a whole bunch of people who use Cloud Code, and I've used it myself intensively, and I've used Codex and OpenAI, and I've used Microsoft Copilot.
00:26:11.700And by the way, some of it is just amazing, like amazing.
00:26:17.000Like if you had told me, like if you had asked me even like say five to eight years ago, would I be seeing this?
00:26:22.900I would say, no, no, no, no, that's not yet.
00:27:24.920And so you want to be the humans using AI.
00:27:26.400And then this gets back to, I think, this is a central point.
00:27:28.300It's like, well, what's the thing you should be thinking about is one is monitoring.
00:27:32.760And then the other one is, how do we help AI be part of the solution?
00:27:37.620Because the thing that's driving it at scale and speed is AI.
00:27:42.180We need solutions that work on the same capability set.
00:27:46.440So, for example, OK, how do I help AI? How do I have AI helping people make job transitions? I want to be seeing that. Right. So like like one of the things you could do right here at the mansion is you could say, hey, great.
00:28:02.400You know, California is the center of the AI revolution in the world.
00:28:08.060It's part of the reason why 53 mattered.
00:28:10.400Hey, I want you guys to all come by and tell me about how AI could be useful in helping people, all ranges.
00:28:17.960I want to hear about blue collar, white collar, multiple industries.
00:28:22.240How does that help those people, you know, find the right work, do the right work, you know, have pride in their work?
00:28:32.400So we're going to have a day here in the mansion.
00:28:36.500You're going to come talk to us about it because I want to hear you thinking about it, right?
00:28:42.540Because by the way, ultimately, if you're not delivering on this, then I have to apply more pressure because my responsibility is to the citizens of the state.
00:28:53.940And look, I'm very happy that we have the AI revolution and the economics flowing in from that and all the rest.
00:29:01.760but i care about all my citizens yeah so tell me what you can do for them yeah interesting i mean
00:29:08.840this notion of using ai the thing that has displaced that worker to help find and place
00:29:15.580that worker exactly in a new opportunity a new career that's not quote-unquote just training
00:29:20.060per se in the old yeah sort of black and white movie uh community college construct yes but i
00:29:25.520want to if i could i want to i want to get back there's so many areas on computing issues
00:29:29.260limiting issues in that space and what's going on with data centers, et cetera, and where we are
00:29:34.640in terms of the competitive landscape. But you, I, I was, I, I didn't know this. You, you were at
00:29:41.320Stanford back in the, talk about black and white movie, wasn't that, it wasn't just a couple of
00:29:46.240years ago, but way back when, and you were studying what was simplistic solution. What the hell is
00:29:51.760this? Simplistic solutions, symbolic systems. Yeah. What the hell is this? Well, it's artificial
00:29:56.000intelligence every day in Ontario a shelter worker will help someone fleeing violence a child
00:30:01.180therapist will help a kid in crisis a support worker will help a person with disabilities live
00:30:06.260a full life in their community they and countless other workers show up for Ontarians every single
00:30:12.100day but the Ford government's cuts have left workers with no choice but to go on strike
00:30:16.640today workers are on the picket lines fighting for their communities and the services we all
00:30:21.300depend on. Now it's our turn to show up for them. Visit worthfightingfor.ca to show your support.
00:30:26.960Hey, I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. Together, we're going to have
00:30:32.060meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people, like when actress Olivia
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00:30:49.760Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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00:31:24.260Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
00:31:26.940Last night, a blown call changed the game.
00:31:29.320This morning, the internet lost its mind.
00:31:31.400Highlights are trending, opinions are flying,
00:31:33.560and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.
00:34:56.280Where did it really begin at a scale that we're now more accustomed to?
00:35:00.000Well, so by the way, like many technological revolutions, including modern ones, there have been multiple, like, oh, in five years we'll be having AI invent new science.
00:35:12.880And that goes all the way back to the 80s.
00:35:28.820and now it'll be inventing physics and you're like not so much yeah yeah uh and so it's like
00:35:35.560cycling through it and that was actually part of my conclusion at stanford was like no none of these
00:35:39.700technology none of these current technical approaches will work so what's the thing that
00:35:45.360got me back in ai was um a three-hour meeting with demis isabas uh the ceo and co-founder of
00:35:52.720deep mind yeah and what i realized that he had that he had like he is the i think the the he and
00:36:00.540his co-founder is the original kickoff of deep mind and it's not i mean again it's not microsoft
00:36:05.340it's not anthropic open ai it's not spacex as well i mean it's that's the i mean if you really
00:36:10.380want to start to understand and unlock an understanding and what demis realized was
00:36:15.800we have scale compute and with scale compute we can create scale intelligence now his original
00:36:21.900idea has been less of the important thing which is self-play so we had pong and go and it plays
00:36:28.040but the answer was we can apply a lot of compute to evolve a competent machine a with cognitive
00:36:37.440capabilities and i was like you're right we now have scale compute and what's more we have scale
00:36:43.320data and we have scale engagement you know through internet and mobile the revolution a revolution a
00:36:50.740massive revolution is here now did i know when i walked out of that meeting you know and at um
00:36:58.180you know king's cross that i was like oh actually it won't be the self-play it'll actually be these
00:37:04.720these things called transformers these large language models that read the trillion and a
00:37:11.520half words on the internet and use that as a learning basis to create something no i didn't
00:37:16.940know that well i did know is this is now a revolution and and so it's like okay how do i
00:37:24.780help and you know for me uh i'm i'm not adverse to doing stuff commercially obviously i've done a
00:37:31.480whole bunch of stuff commercially but for me i look across the whole spectrum i go okay what's
00:37:36.260the stuff that i should do as a founder as investor what's the stuff that i should do
00:37:39.760as a content provider and author what's the stuff that i should do talking to you know people who
00:37:44.700care about society like you and others and what to do like how do i go from you know humanity
00:37:50.040society industry and that's the order which i care about them right humanity first society second
00:37:55.260industry third industry can be very useful for society and humanity but you like part of the
00:38:01.520like when you were talking about that earlier steering and shaping well we want to steer and
00:38:05.760shape industry to go it should be on average massively positive for society over time right
00:38:12.120And if that's not the direction you're in, it needs to be fixed, right?
00:38:16.020Now, over time, not this year necessarily, right?
00:38:19.800There's always costs of transformation and all the rest.
00:38:23.580Now, and so I went, that's the revolution we're in.
00:38:27.340And so for me, I think that's 2013 or 2014, right?
00:38:33.640And it's and that's why when like Sam called me and said, hey, I'm thinking of pulling this thing together with, you know, for AI, for humanity, will you help?
00:38:56.080and and actually you know i think you know i think my partners at graylock were the first
00:39:02.240uh venture partnership that saw gbt4 because i got sam's permission i was on the board of open
00:39:07.500ai to say hey come in and demo this and and and show this because there was there was a six-month
00:39:13.760period where gbt4 was not public because we're like oh is it safe enough and all the rest and
00:39:20.520you know they were doing it i was like okay look i think it's safe enough is it okay to show the
00:39:24.200partnership and sam's like yeah this this since you're serving on a 51c3 board of open ai trying
00:39:29.780to do this this is the least we could do yes you could go show them you know what's coming
00:39:34.000google there's or there's some interesting i i and i don't you know i don't want to get into
00:39:41.460gossip but i think it's interesting because it's instructive to a lot of people and it's also
00:39:45.280i think connects a lot of your own personal relationships and dots um so you you know you
00:39:51.200were notoriously, as we were alluding to earlier, part of the payfowl mafia. And those are the
00:39:56.240brand names today. Elon Musk, obviously Peter Thiel, David Sachs, less of a brand name,
00:40:01.320but increasingly trying to be one in terms of his association with the Trump administration.
00:40:08.060Musk allegedly, and Larry Page, co-founder of Google, had a conversation that, as at least
00:40:18.840musk's telling goes uh musk was concerned that larry wasn't taking this gen ai seriously enough
00:40:25.180in terms of its downside risks uh and decided to go off on his own uh made the same contacts you
00:40:31.960made with sam altman and others uh and went down this path of a 501c3 yep and tried to birth open
00:40:40.520ai yep is that reasonably accurate that is reasonably accurate i think it was a conversation
00:40:45.620I think it was, you know, Larry was kind of saying, was, you know, you know, it's probably too simplistic, but, you know, kind of articulating a transhumanist perspective to Elon that, you know, naturally freaks someone out because the rational response to that is, that's a little strange, right?
00:41:05.480Right. And so and so it got very concerned about it.
00:41:10.600Now, you know, in Elon's case in particular, it's the, you know, Elon has the definition of a messiah complex.
00:41:16.940So it's like, no, no, I have to be the one building AI, not anyone else.
00:41:20.840So there's the there's a little bit of the I'm worried about it generally, but it's also the I'm worried it's you, not me.
00:41:26.580I think that's sort of proven itself a little bit.
00:41:29.440This notion of going back, even when you said the glasses, which is interesting, technology can see better.
00:41:35.480We've been aiding and embedded, and as a human, that technology, it's not just, you know, ones and zeros.
00:43:37.740Like, we will try to figure out the answers to those questions.
00:43:40.800Like, the simulation theory stuff is like, sure, there's unknowns.
00:43:44.700Like, for example, the classic one that you usually use to argue with this is we don't have signals that there's other intelligent universe in the universe.
00:43:52.740And so, you know, like with radio waves and statistics and all the rest, we should have that.
00:43:57.720well okay that's an interesting puzzle that's an interesting question why do we not have that
00:44:03.900and but like and therefore we're in a simulation is like that's a lot of cognitive theoretical
00:44:12.160infrastructure to explain this a similar like like the hey we have an unknown about the complexity
00:44:19.800about how human brains evolved and what the intermediate steps looked like well therefore
00:44:26.120there must be a creator but well there's a lot of it's an unknown and by the way therefore there
00:44:32.680must be creator and therefore by the way the creator must be my religion not any of the other
00:44:36.10020s like it's like what like it's like no no pause on the mystery right and then go okay we have an
00:44:43.600unknown to answer so there's a whole bunch of craziness but i think coming back to your the
00:44:47.520first part of your question i think is very important because i think this like i've been
00:44:50.940giving some speeches in italy like i gave one at bologna and perusia because i wanted silicon
00:44:56.160valley to remember some of the important humanist nature of the renaissance which is what is it to
00:45:02.640really be a humanist when you're thinking about this technology and it's not just self-declaration
00:45:08.980i am humanist you're like no that that that's nice it's better than i'm not right um but it's
00:45:17.820like well what is it to be humanist to say look uh i have a theory about why the work i'm doing
00:45:25.520will cause a much better result for call it at least 80 percent of humanity
00:45:32.700then the next thing is and i'm transparent about it i'm talking about it i'm giving you a chance
00:45:40.640to critique me dialogue with me etc etc and then this is a super important thing is
00:47:35.600You have just massive, obscene, off-the-charts wealth comes with massive, obscene influence to write the rules and regulations and the incumbency protection racket, to lock everything out and lock everybody out, to buy politicians.
00:52:37.440Some of it, like taxation for helping the rest of society, can be a good idea.
00:52:42.840Right. So so it's it's and, you know, getting it right is hard, but I think it's doable.
00:52:51.080And it's like, well, then you go to, well, who are the people who would be with me on, hey, we should tax AI in some good ways, robot tax, whatever else, or make it happen.
00:53:01.600What are the ways we do that? So we take off some of the AI wealth that fights on our side for helping society.
00:53:08.160and we fight against the other AI wealth that's like, no, no, no, I should take my trillion
00:53:12.960dollars and be able to do whatever the hell I want. So easier said than done. I mean, this gets
00:53:18.100to, and we talk about that turbulence and we talk about the transition and using your vernacular
00:53:22.940and you've, there's a lot of conversations about, all right, if, if this does have a more pronounced
00:53:28.360impact sooner than we anticipated, and we don't have the answer to what to do about that. And we
00:53:34.380of the AI solution to address the AI problem in terms of that transition. This notion of
00:53:39.880universal basic income versus universal basic capital, this notion of equity, this notion of
00:53:45.960ownership broadly shared so that we can address some of that anxiety. We all have a stake in the
00:53:52.060game. You tend to be on the UBC side of this equation. But the question I have for you is not
00:53:59.200where you are on that simple question, the binary, at least in that context, which is hardly the
00:54:04.140binary but the question i posed um is how the hell you do it who's gonna do it you think sam's
00:54:10.260gonna he says two and a half percent you know what they're about to go public uh we've we've
00:54:14.860called for it in california why doesn't he do it here in california let's will happily take two and0.96
00:54:18.860a half percent a year in this his home state that helped birth this damn industry i think he's gonna
00:54:23.340pick up the phone after hearing this uh he might i'm like sam cares about this stuff to his credit0.80
00:54:29.220he put out exactly and to his credit yes he put that out yes he put that out he's been running
00:54:36.280uh universal basic income experiments funding it himself in oakland like like like like he's here's
00:54:42.800the moment yeah so this is a moment yeah all these ipos coming uh dario here's the moment yes no so
00:54:49.480like i think that's a great called ass right now i actually believe of all of the open ai folks and
00:54:57.400all of the anthropic folks they're very philanthropically minded so i think like0.93
00:55:03.880well the foundation i mean objectively you can you can dismiss these i get the populace
00:55:09.140these guys yeah but they did put a foundation with the largest in the world yes exactly that
00:55:15.080they set up yes exists yes and has tens of over a hundred billion dollars of capital today yes
00:55:21.380exactly and so and and what i think is unlike for example take the open ai foundation i don't
00:55:27.240think they're going to be sitting on their hands. And I actually think one of the things that you
00:55:31.300should do, and I think California should do, it should be as, hey, you guys were only possible
00:55:40.120because of California. We provided the platform by which you guys could do this. Could you guys
00:55:48.560disproportionately focus on helping our state and doing stuff? We'd love to talk to you.
00:55:53.560You're supposed to take your capital gains to Texas.
00:57:46.420it's a court of law with with truth in like documents depositions etc it's just pathetic0.97
00:57:56.100it's like the no no no like i'm trying to do anything possible to argue that you guys are0.88
00:58:01.200wrong and i was right and i was like no they were they were right you were wrong yeah but it's just
00:58:06.280i mean it so it just i mean i guess it i mean it's just a classic clinical definition of narcissism
00:58:13.840Yeah. And like, for example, he goes, I like, for example, he helps found open AI as like, we need to have AI for the benefit of humanity, not just Google. Yeah. Okay. Then he goes, oh, shit, I should have my own. So he gets AXAI started. And in a desperate bid for market share, he's like, oh, yeah, that's fine.
00:58:37.000if we create a whole bunch of like pornographic images,
00:59:53.400I mean, it's like, for example, you just look at the prospectus, and the biggest part of it is payments from Anthropic for these data centers that are horrific for the environment, are badly set up in their networking equipment, that nominally he's trying to restart XAI for the third time by cursor to go somewhere.
01:00:17.020Yeah, by cursor, $60 billion, San Francisco-based company that five years ago didn't exist.
01:00:22.960Yes. And it's like, okay. And I'm glad he's buying Cursor. You know, great. Yeah, hopefully something will come of it.
01:00:28.980What are they, Vibe? What is Vibe Coding? Sorry to go down this rabbit hole.
01:00:35.020Well, it's one of the early revolutionaries of how do you have AI accelerate your coding.
01:00:43.060And Vibe Coding is a part of that. It's not the whole thing.
01:00:46.120It's like, you know, like basically anyone who is coding who's not using AI right now, or not everyone, call it 90 plus percent.
01:00:55.280If you're coding and not using AI, you're making a mistake, right?
01:00:59.860So, and it's only getting better, right?
01:01:03.240And both Claude Code, OpenAI Codex, I think Microsoft Copilot, I think will have a good entry here, are all – I think the fundamental way has changed the entire world in terms of how we operate.0.92
01:01:23.580so anthropics willing to buy the revenue but like that is your primary revenue thing in the thing
01:01:30.720that you're going public on like this is in the government yes well and then you're like oh the
01:01:37.960doj is saying they've got to drop the lawsuit because this is part of our national security
01:01:42.780defense like well that's none of that's in their prospectus and by the way the entire xai thing
01:01:49.520elon himself said it's a complete train wreck we're rebuilding it and i was like well you know
01:01:54.100if you had like honor integrity you'd say well we'll hand back those government contracts because
01:01:58.040we just said our product was a complete train wreck right it's like you know so it just it's
01:02:03.880all corruption i mean corruption yeah i mean you just call it yeah call what it is call it what it
01:02:10.920is we're living in the in the in the in the greatest kleptocracy of your and my lifetimes
01:02:16.000and it's i want to circle back on that stay tuned for those that are tuning in on that because that
01:02:23.820deserves some attention but as we we sort of bounce back and forth the anthropic data center
01:02:28.840point you made in this notion of compute and you made the point the biggest limiting factor in
01:02:32.840terms of the acceleration is less the chips as important as profound as they are it's really
01:02:37.820about the compute and so it gets to the question of data centers and all the anxiety in data centers
01:02:42.800which has actually been sort of a leading indicator of one of the reasons people have
01:02:45.880such animus towards AI, because they connect the dots. And there's been a few studies, DC,
01:02:50.340Maryland, that 60% of the growth of those retail or rather residential utility bills have been
01:02:56.820attached to the issue of data center growth. So where are you in all that? I know you've said
01:03:01.020we blamed AI for everything, but the issue of utility costs, which have been growing
01:03:06.320separate from AI, certainly haven't been benefited from AI and data centers.
01:03:12.000Look, I think that the clear thing for you and the other folks to do is say, look, we want to enable data centers that are net very positive contributors to communities.
01:03:23.600So, for example, a very easy one is to say, hey, if you're building a massive data center, you have to provision power at like 130 percent.
01:06:44.740And so, for example, it's one of the reasons why a lot of the challenges are just wrong.
01:06:48.800Like they say, well, you know, climate impact.
01:06:52.220And you're like, well, actually, let's just make sure that AI is applying some to grid analysis and power running and so forth.
01:06:58.240And you say, hey, if all of a sudden all of the HVACs and laundry machines and all the rest were intelligent devices that ran when it was cheap on the grid and all the rest and was doing power management, net very positive benefit.
01:07:12.800And we've already seen Google do that with their own data centers and all the rest.
01:07:15.700Like, it's a whole bunch of stuff there.
01:07:17.760And I think the same thing in terms of ultimately, that doesn't mean that there won't be some things that are Ponzi schemes and some things that are major economic losses.
01:07:28.720But a bubble is, oh, this isn't sustainable.
01:07:34.380It all just kind of falls down and it has domino effects to other things.
01:07:37.920Right. The short answer is like Anthropics revenue is limited by its compute. It has more demand that it can provide right now. And and so that like this isn't like, oh, no one wants this. It's no, no. This intelligence at the scale and cost of electricity is massively useful, massively wanted.
01:08:00.560So it doesn't mean you say, well, maybe we built that data center for $50 billion and it actually ends up being worth $40 billion.
01:08:22.700What do you make of a market which is so fierce in the competition?
01:08:27.180This notion of superintelligence, this race to this holy grail, and then in a nanosecond, I shut every competitor down.
01:08:34.420I quite literally talk about the Messiah complex.
01:08:36.960I own the world in my palm of my hand, maybe literally.
01:08:42.560That a company like Google and Gemini are uniquely positioned against an anthropic, against open AI and others,
01:08:52.560Just on the token question, that they can sort of do what companies, Amazon, infamously, many other companies do, and that's just gut their competition and price them out by lowering the cost below their actual cost and have tokens as loss leaders until they bleed out their competition.
01:09:10.280Well, they definitely are the cheapest price tokens of the major stuff today, and it's not having that much of an impact.
01:09:21.420So it isn't to say it's not an issue to pay attention to, but like, for example, when people kind of check token costs across, call it, you know, OpenAI, Anthropic, and Google, Google is by far and away the cheapest, but the heat and usage is still in OpenAI and Anthropic.
01:09:43.440And by the way, within the enterprise context, Microsoft, right?
01:09:47.640And so, yes, that's a worry, but it's not really playing out that way.
01:09:52.100Now, some of it is, you know, for example, you know, Google missed the curve on the coding agent thing, right?
01:10:00.140Some of it's, you know, kind of other things.
01:10:02.300Google – and look, I'll just – so it just doesn't look like I'm Microsoft, you know, dumping on Google.
01:10:09.260Like Google missed a bunch of different productization things.
01:16:42.920What do you think where Sam's going with OpenAI and the partners for Johnny Ivey and others in terms of designing some really revolutionary,
01:16:52.780there's sort of an apple-esque uh you know steve jobs johnny sort of this is you know imagining
01:16:59.580the future without the constraints of what you already know eraser mania forget what you already
01:17:03.580know design a project a product for the for the ai agents not constrained by the thinking of the
01:17:08.780past so just like within a small number of years none of us will be doing anything that's like
01:17:15.660knowledge or information work without having multiple ai agents that we are managing a
01:17:21.160workflow and so doing and that's small n five maybe right like you know there's no longer such
01:17:27.360a thing as a human individual contributor there's a human manager of agents maybe working on a team
01:17:32.400with other humans managing agents and all the rest and all the you know and there's what's
01:17:37.060happening that's an amazing transformation um there will be within a small number of years
01:17:45.860some amazing AI bringing into the work, into a workplace?
01:17:52.880Will it be the kind of Johnny, you know,
01:17:55.900reimagination of the phone, et cetera, kind of thing?
01:17:59.220Will it be the rebirth of manufacturing in America
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01:22:57.480So much of the focus and you, as you're speaking, got me thinking about even your two AI companies that you've that you've founded, co-founded.
01:23:11.380Yeah. Not all those others that I think everyone we've named you've you've invested in.
01:23:15.840Yes. It's just we can get to that in a minute.
01:23:19.640But this so much of our time and energy.
01:23:23.220I was talking to Ezra Klein about this and back east a week or two ago.
01:23:26.860And he said, it'd be good to mix in, I'm paraphrasing him, and I don't want to talk out of school, some of the good stuff along the lines of what you now are sprinkling in.
01:23:36.940And you're investing very directly just in the area that we, you know, you talked about 20, 30 years ago, people were focused on the issue of breakthroughs in medicine.
01:28:21.440But the point being, how does, you know,
01:28:23.680It's a compute for the UC system and the CSUs and for 40 million Americans in California, for 350 million Americans, for society writ large.
01:28:38.420It's not just about the commercialization in the context of an ROI that is numeric.
01:28:44.300And I know there's the sort of free enterprise case that that is, you know, we don't even get into the larger philosophical point.
01:28:51.620Well, one of the things I think is important for everyone to think about is we don't have the AI revolution except through the commercial sector.
01:29:00.360The capabilities of doing it in any other sector than the commercial sector do not exist.
01:29:05.140Because what you need is you need to be able to apply scale teams with scale resources.
01:29:12.720And like scale teams, I mean thousands of people, tens of thousands of people.
01:29:16.000Scale resources, billions to hundreds of billions in risk environment.
01:29:21.620where a lot of this will fail as you're going no other sector other than the commercial sector can
01:29:27.700do it and and that's because people go well sure i'll build a billion dollars here that i might lose
01:29:33.020right because i'm not going to then be castigated for it or else because it's like look it's my
01:29:38.200billion dollars i'm trying to do it etc and that's part of what gets to the scale compute scale data
01:29:42.400centers and all the rest now so what we when we think about this is we say how well how do we
01:29:47.720shape it now back to some of your earlier questions about like well what should you know
01:29:53.000folks in your chair be doing like what we want and in your conversation with ezra what we want
01:29:59.620in short order is at minimum three assistants uh given to every citizen state country etc
01:30:08.000one medical one legal one educational and we want them to be very competent and we want them to be
01:31:12.100Or, oh, well, look, we would love to be in the healthcare business, but the medical liability stuff is so intense.
01:31:18.680Could you give us a channel of safe harbor that could be by an independent review committee that you set up from the amazing hospital system in California and say, hey, give us parameters of safe harbor to operate.
01:31:34.560And if you give that, then we'll be learning and we'll be building an industry off this.
01:31:37.640great and then we will provide a medical assistant that's 24 7 available to every citizen of
01:31:44.820california maybe every i prefer the u.s but we're here sitting here in california fine anything of
01:31:51.140that because then by the way i have access to this kind of medical thing of 24 7 i can call a doctor
01:31:58.460and get an answer for something i need very few people have that right right i would love it if
01:32:05.520Every single person had it for their kids, for their partners, for their grandparents, for their family members, for their friends, et cetera.
01:32:12.620And by the way, these things can give really good medical advice.
01:32:17.600No medical advice is perfect, but they can give really good medical advice.
01:32:22.020And so it's like take the kind of medical thing that only the ultra-wealthy have access to and make it democratically available, like every citizen, legal assistant, right?
01:32:33.360Like, okay, currently, like, law is expensive, right?
01:32:40.200And so currently, like, when a person is kind of going into, like, signing a rental contract or an employment contract or anything else, most people can't afford lawyers, right?
01:32:52.740And they're like, I trust that it probably works out.
01:33:25.120And, you know, I've had a strong theory that it's the same fight, that if order to save democracy, which I've been particularly passionate about, Prop 50 redistricting and pushing back against what's happening in Washington, D.C., that we have to democratize the economy.
01:33:40.480That this notion, again, of just concentrated wealth, I'm joking about the six billion trillion dollars.
01:35:53.880By the way, we are a huge investor in that plane.
01:35:58.360Not just the $400 million the Qatari government gave to Trump, but the $900, almost $1 billion in the Pentagon budget to retrofit it was also appropriated.
01:36:10.620And that is a plane he will take with him.
01:37:51.300Like, and look, if you're a citizen that has any, you know, power, which basically is all of these people, including myself, no, no, state of your principles.
01:38:01.260Some of the most powerful people in the world.
01:43:26.560We can edit it and say, but the Department of Justice.
01:43:30.340Yes, which is being instrumented as a personal and corrupted to a personal attack vehicle for President Trump.
01:43:41.020In your case, it's political opponents, right?
01:43:43.700Which is, no, our whole point from George Washington's, you know, seeding of power and what this country stands for is we do not allow the instrument of state to try to corrupt the political process for people running for office.
01:44:00.540Oh, no, no, I'm going to stand up because, like, what's the basis of your Department of Justice investigation?
01:44:31.680So, look, I have the honor of being called out three times by, you know, Trump for, and Trump administration.
01:44:39.920Actually, twice by Trump and once most recently, kind of indirectly, for like investigation.
01:44:47.700The first one was Antifa, which is like an organization that they can't name a member of, an activity of, a leader of, an attributable action, et cetera.
01:44:59.400But whatever that is, maybe I've been financing it.
01:45:01.720You're like, what are you talking about?
01:45:04.040So you've been doing – how many years you've been financing Antifa?
01:49:47.640Um, and it's, you know, including like, Hey, uh, until we figured out what's going on for us, could we like really limit and slow down what's going on with migration?
01:49:58.380Cause like, like, uh, I don't know how migration is better for me.
01:50:05.240But I think probably the most central thing is there's a lot of Democrats who don't understand why business is so important.
01:50:14.240They don't understand it pays for everything.
01:50:16.980it pays for the the medicare it pays for social security it pays for jobs it's like really
01:50:24.020important you got to be the i'm pro business right it just got to be you can't be pro job
01:50:29.700and anti-business yes exactly so it's like stop being like stop doing anti-business rhetoric
01:50:36.420because people go wait that's totally broken right then that's what part of what this like
01:50:41.300socialist means right it's like so so like be pro-business now you may say well i want business
01:50:47.700to contribute more okay be more specific about what that is and and then go on that as part of
01:50:53.160what you're doing it's like look i love i'm very pro-business and i think business can contribute
01:50:57.280more in the following ways i want business to succeed and i think we should get business like
01:51:02.360it's the i want business to succeed of course you do it's what gives us jobs and everything else and
01:51:08.300And so being pro-business in that regard, and I think that's part of the thing where there is, like, I just don't think it works to say the real problem is in earlier elections, we weren't anti-power enough where anti-power means anti-business.
01:51:29.080And so it's like, no, look, we do, look, all societies have pillars of power.
01:51:35.500They have pillars of power in politics.
01:51:37.960They have pillars of power in business.
01:51:39.840They have pillars of power in celebrity.
01:51:43.580And what you really want is a distribution of power.0.98
01:51:46.480Now, when you get to a trillionaire, you go, hey, he should be limited about how he can buy elections and do other kinds of shit, right?0.89
01:51:54.200Like, that's important because that's a corruption on that kind of power.
01:51:58.440but by the way part of the reason why like i have not been worried about the the the scaling tech
01:52:06.100companies is because if we were this is one thing i said like eight plus years ago if we were five
01:52:11.880to seven scale tech companies heading to three i'd have a concern if we're five to seven heading to
01:52:17.06015 they compete with each other and they're balancing out their power and all the rest
01:52:46.580And so in this, I mean, so it's interesting
01:52:49.020just at the core, and I think it goes to,
01:52:50.640You had some issues with Lena Kahn at the FTC and the contacts, and then the brand of Biden sort of took a shape in a completely different direction, including, by the way, in the crypto space, as you were implying earlier, that there was an opportunity there.
01:53:06.200And they just turn their back because of the excesses, but without looking at the sort of baseline benefits of blockchain or democratizing access to banking and not having the friction and the capture of the banking system and the fee structures and the rest.
01:53:23.380Yeah, exactly. So what we want is we want Democrats to say, well, we're business intelligent and we're proposing things that shape it to the better benefit of the working class. Great. All for it.
01:53:39.480And you are where on the billionaire's tax, sir? Reid, where are you on the billionaire's tax? You know my position as a state level, but what about that debate broadly and how does that play in to your broader point?
01:53:52.680So I'm not at all opposed to increasing progressive taxation.
01:57:40.140But let's try to make it so that it's, that you're like, okay, because this is the thing I, like, when people call me to ask me about the California wealth tax, I say, look, here is how I would try to introduce new taxes in California, whether it's raising the income or a house.
01:57:57.180I would say, hey, Kate, we're going to tax very much disproportionately from the wealthy.
01:58:02.800The wealthy have had a huge benefit of being in California because that's how they've made all their wealth and all the rest.
01:58:09.320So, yes, we wish that they would just go along with it.
01:58:13.000But, of course, everyone wants to avoid tax.
01:58:15.880But, like, pitch it to them in terms where you're like, I'm fixing the problem.
01:58:19.400right like hey we're creating a sovereign wealth fund for being able to fund ongoing you know kind
01:58:26.400of prosperity of california is like okay then like okay i like i'm i still would rather not
01:58:33.480pay more tax right but it makes sense to me that opens the door and by the way so many of the
01:58:37.320conversations we've had with many of the people including number of people that have left are in
01:58:40.980those lines where they would they they have publicly stated not just privately stated they
01:59:25.420Well, I appreciate that sentiment and obviously believe very strongly we're going to have to address the tax code federally in a profound way.
01:59:34.100And California, in many ways, has some clues.
01:59:37.080I mean, compare California, most progressive tax rate, states like New York as well, but to the most regressive states like Texas and Florida that tax their low-wage earners more than we tax our high-wage earners.
01:59:49.700So the question objectively is, who is the high-tax state?
01:59:52.800We have the highest tax rate for the 1%.