This Past Weekend with Theo Von - #603

00:00:00.140 Today's guest is an Emmy award-winning journalist for National Geographic.

00:00:04.300 She's known for her investigative reporting, where she goes and delves into some of the deepest, most dangerous black markets in the world.

00:00:14.100 Cartels, scammers, extremist groups, trafficking. She has been there for it all.

00:00:20.940 We're going to learn a lot today, and I'm already thankful for her time.

00:00:24.320 Today's guest is Mariana Van Zeller.

00:00:30.000 Mariana Van Zeller, good to see you today.

00:00:45.920 Great seeing you too.

00:00:46.620 Yeah, I appreciate you coming in. Congrats on your Emmys.

00:00:49.020 Thank you so much. Yeah, it was a good night.

00:00:51.120 How many have you guys won now?

00:00:53.560 We've won nine. But you know what's interesting?

00:00:55.480 I was nominated for, I've been a journalist for over 20 years, and throughout my career I've been nominated.

00:01:01.480 I think I had one of the highest nominations with no wins ever, which was like 39 nominations, or even more.

00:01:07.560 Before you got your first win?

00:01:08.720 Before I got my first one. The first one was last year.

00:01:11.100 And I couldn't believe when they finally called our name, the name of the team, and we all went on stage.

00:01:15.460 That first one was really sweet. That was last year.

00:01:17.920 But that's crazy. That many times you had to go and listen?

00:01:22.120 And wait, and be the loser. Yes.

00:01:23.480 Many, many times.

00:01:24.920 But I guess that's also the part of the trenches of like the entertainment industry that people don't think about.

00:01:29.600 There's like a lot of times people may feel like we're doing good work, or we're doing this, or really any industry.

00:01:34.860 But there's somebody before you that had been doing good work, that had put their time in.

00:01:39.840 And even it takes a while to get even through like the award systems, you know?

00:01:43.080 Absolutely. And also it's just, it's whatever. It's a prize is a prize. It's not the most important thing in the world.

00:01:48.480 But we, the show we do, Traffic, that was nominated this past season for 29 Emmys, it's a really hard show to put together.

00:01:56.880 It's one of the, I always say it's the most challenging show in the world to put together.

00:02:00.860 We're asking people, have you watched, do you know what the show's about?

00:02:03.880 We're trying to get people who don't want to talk, to talk to us and to open up their lives and show us their crazy underworld and their hidden corners of the world.

00:02:12.420 And so it's really, really hard.

00:02:14.900 And so to finally be recognized, it's for the whole team, it's just that, that's what was special.

00:02:20.360 Okay, what we're doing, we're doing something right here. I mean, yeah.

00:02:24.000 Yeah, because usually, I mean, yeah, tickling was the old school way to get people to just tell you everything, you know?

00:02:29.560 But you really, you come across some universes where I think if you tickled, it'd be a little bit obtuse.

00:02:34.720 I'm not sure if they'd like that.

00:02:35.960 I know. It's like, it always was kind of like a last resort.

00:02:39.720 On this season of Traffic, you guys have some, it looks like, I've just seen the trailer, I've seen different clips.

00:02:45.100 You guys have, I know you go to investigate into militias, brides for sale.

00:02:51.420 The trafficking of brides, rehab scams, which was a really interesting one.

00:02:55.260 I've been covering the opiate crisis, but we also covered sort of the dark side of trying to get clean,

00:03:00.500 which are these rehab scams that exist all over the country.

00:03:03.460 What's one of the episodes from the new season, this season five, that, that really kind of, you got kind of attached to, do you feel like?

00:03:11.500 It's always a hard question because we spend so much time in each one.

00:03:15.320 I'd say, I mean, Cartel USA is the first one for a good reason.

00:03:20.060 I think it was really chilling what we discovered.

00:03:22.820 We start, you know, I've been covering the cartel for many years now and have traveled extensively throughout Mexico, namely Sinaloa.

00:03:29.780 I've reported more from Sinaloa, Mexico than anywhere else in the world.

00:03:32.880 And, and have, you know, reported on the drug trade as well.

00:03:37.680 But I, I, and I'd seen the presence of the cartel here in the U.S., which is why I decided I wanted to do a story about what exactly that means, how much of it is that here, how widespread it is, and what, what's that mean for our, for, for the country.

00:03:52.360 But like in small little city towns, they're operating in many cases and have these distribution, drug distribution centers out of small town America.

00:04:01.340 We interviewed a couple of investigators from the Georgia Bureau of Investigations who were, were called because there had been a murder, gruesome murder of a woman who'd been tortured there.

00:04:13.200 Her, her fingers were cut off by pliers one by one in a bathtub.

00:04:17.460 She was basically killed while still conscious and alive with a chainsaw.

00:04:22.600 And this is because her cartel boss, she was a drug runner and her boss who was in prison, by the way, all ordered through prison on a cell phone.

00:04:30.520 He was giving the orders on a cell phone live and he believed that she had stolen some drugs.

00:04:36.000 Turns out it was not the case, but this was in small town Georgia, like the last place you'd expect to see this kind of violence.

00:04:42.560 But it's starting to come here as well.

00:04:44.680 So they use, and I have seen this throughout my reporting and, and whether we're talking about sort of smaller sheriff offices to, to border patrol, corruption is actually here.

00:04:54.860 And it's a big tool that they use to be able to continue their operations.

00:04:58.540 And then go ahead.

00:04:59.820 Yeah, no, well, corruption.

00:05:00.680 I mean, I think we're at a space now where to most people, it feels like everything seems very corrupt, right?

00:05:05.760 Are we allowing this drug trafficking?

00:05:09.340 Are we allowing these cartels to work in our country?

00:05:11.500 I think we're just combating it the wrong way.

00:05:13.820 The war on drugs has been a massive failure.

00:05:17.180 I mean, billions of dollars spent for no returns.

00:05:20.720 I mean, we're seeing where it's getting worse and worse.

00:05:23.640 I think last year was the first year where the numbers didn't go up, but it's been going progressively up.

00:05:29.280 I mean, in the last, I think, since 2000, one million people have died from the opiate crisis.

00:05:35.640 Yeah.

00:05:35.860 You know, so I, I just don't think we are doing what we're supposed to be doing.

00:05:39.880 We're not doing the right thing.

00:05:41.000 We're not using the right tools to combat drug trafficking.

00:05:44.140 And, you know, the cartel benefits from drug trafficking.

00:05:47.780 It's their breadwinning, uh, industry.

00:05:50.660 Yeah, it's their big business.

00:05:51.820 It's their big business.

00:05:52.640 Like what drugs are the cartels bringing in?

00:05:54.580 I guess that's where I'm.

00:05:55.800 Everything.

00:05:56.280 I mean, fentanyl, cocaine, meth.

00:05:58.640 Um, but also I think one of the biggest misunderstandings that we, and was learning for me, reporting on this,

00:06:05.220 was that a lot of these cartel operators are actually American.

00:06:08.920 American born, American raised, don't even speak Spanish.

00:06:12.040 One of the main guys that we featured in our episode is a guy called, that we, goes by the name of El Gringo.

00:06:17.160 El Gringo.

00:06:17.700 He was born in the United States, doesn't speak a word of Spanish.

00:06:20.620 And he's a massive, he's sort of a wholesale distributor for the cartel.

00:06:23.840 And he realized he could do it.

00:06:26.140 He could, uh, distribute the drugs really well.

00:06:28.720 He was really good with logistics.

00:06:30.720 And, uh, and do you know how he distributes some of the drugs?

00:06:33.220 They come in through, um, border patrol.

00:06:35.420 It's usually always, or 90% of the time is official ports of entry.

00:06:40.560 So it's not going, you know.

00:06:42.520 Sneaking through the woods or something or tying it to like a, um, deer and having them run over the border or whatever.

00:06:47.720 Right, right.

00:06:48.020 Or, or little kids with backpacks.

00:06:49.820 That happens as well.

00:06:50.860 But most of it is official ports of entry.

00:06:53.840 And then once it gets to the big cities and then gets distributed by guys like this who also operate a small-town America, he's using actually commercial planes, um, to, where he puts the drugs inside suitcases and has people like strippers.

00:07:08.320 Usually women that are more unassuming.

00:07:11.700 And, uh, and a lot of times strippers is what he told us.

00:07:14.660 Wow.

00:07:15.240 And, and you'd never think that, right?

00:07:17.220 I was thinking trucks or vans full of drugs or the white vans full of drugs or something.

00:07:22.320 No, it's actually in planes.

00:07:24.040 A lot of times he says he uses Delta as his favorite airline.

00:07:27.280 Delta is a great airline.

00:07:28.100 I'll say that.

00:07:28.780 But I didn't know.

00:07:30.540 I didn't know the skies were that friendly, you know?

00:07:32.780 I mean, it can get hella friendly if somebody's shipping Molly up there, I feel like.

00:07:38.720 So when you start to learn this information, what do you do with it?

00:07:42.080 Like, I know you guys present it, right?

00:07:43.620 Like you, you, you package it into an episode and you present it to people.

00:07:47.020 But how do you convince people to talk to us?

00:07:50.580 How do you convince people to talk to us?

00:07:51.700 But how do you convince them you're not going to turn them in?

00:07:54.320 Yeah, I think that's the hardest part of our job.

00:07:56.000 It's always the most challenging.

00:07:57.220 I mean, we spend months, sometimes even years trying to convince people to talk to us.

00:08:01.140 And, you know, there's no real, real benefit to them at first glance, at least.

00:08:05.720 I think for me, I've learned that it's three main things.

00:08:09.100 It's ego.

00:08:09.820 People like to boast.

00:08:11.120 And if you're the best counterfeiter in the world or the best guy at making fentanyl or,

00:08:16.280 or smuggling guns or drugs, whatever it is, the best scammer, you want,

00:08:21.140 sometimes your family doesn't even know what you do.

00:08:23.000 We give them an opportunity with a mask and distorted voice to really brag about what they love.

00:08:27.460 I mean, I have spoken to people.

00:08:29.040 I'll never forget.

00:08:29.660 We did an interview for season one, actually, which was with a guy, a Peruvian guy,

00:08:33.860 who makes these dollar, hundred dollar bills and fifties that look exactly like the real thing.

00:08:39.780 They're fake, but they're exactly like the real thing.

00:08:41.620 And he'd spend days and days or nights because during the day, he was actually a taxi driver,

00:08:45.820 nights and nights just perfecting the little creases and using,

00:08:49.820 he uses a certain powder that he was able to perfect, like everything with,

00:08:54.160 so that it would taste, it would look, I would taste, I don't think people are putting it in your mouth,

00:08:58.920 but they were so that it would smell, feel, sound exactly like a real, when a doll built.

00:09:05.920 And you should see him talking about this.

00:09:08.640 Like he was, his eyes were like shining.

00:09:10.500 He was so proud for being considered the best counterfeiter in-

00:09:15.960 When you are a sculpture, I mean, you are, you're like a money Michelangelo, I guess.

00:09:19.640 And that way, if you really did the best one ever.

00:09:21.760 But they are actually, their entrepreneurship and their creativity just never ceases to surprise me.

00:09:27.320 It's pretty incredible.

00:09:28.040 And then the other reason I think is impunity in many of these places, like Sinaloa, for example,

00:09:32.080 there's just so much police corruption that they just don't see a downside to talking to a person, to me, to Nagio.

00:09:38.600 Now the show is on its fifth season, so it's sort of established, people trust us more.

00:09:42.740 And then I think the third most important reason is a very human characteristic that we all share of wanting to be understood, right?

00:09:48.220 When I approach people, I say, no matter who they are, I'm not here to judge you.

00:09:52.280 I'm here because I really, truly want to understand why you do what you do.

00:09:55.200 I want to understand your world.

00:09:56.400 And really, I think that's sort of the last thing that gets them to decide whether it's a yes or a no.

00:10:02.400 I've gotten hundreds or thousands of no's, and that's the part that you don't see when you see the show, right?

00:10:08.540 So it seems easy, but I think really is that sort of human connection and the ability that we have to tell them, look, I just want to listen.

00:10:16.860 Because I think listening and understanding is way more important than just judging.

00:10:21.460 Yeah, I agree.

00:10:22.760 And I think also when people are living something in secret, right, it's tough.

00:10:27.300 I think living in secret is tough no matter what it is.

00:10:30.000 Like if it's something that you're keeping from loved ones, if it's a reality, sometimes that you're keeping from yourself.

00:10:36.540 Like I've done things in my life and I almost like compartmentalize them so I don't have to feel them, you know?

00:10:41.880 So I don't have to feel like I have done those things.

00:10:44.860 And I think living in secret and not having somebody to share something with, it's – I mean it's just – it can get very painful over time.

00:10:54.720 So, yeah, having I think an outlet of just somebody to even talk to for a little bit about something that feels so shameful or dark or confusing to you can be really, really –

00:11:04.980 Yeah, or secretive.

00:11:06.200 Yeah, it must be just such a high when you're approaching like people who are I guess kind of underworld characters maybe.

00:11:13.720 Yeah, that's what they are, black market operators, underworld characters, people who their whole lives have been trying to stay out of the limelight and, you know, hiding and doing illegal stuff where they don't want journalists poking around.

00:11:27.160 And are you ever amazed?

00:11:28.680 Did you ever meet someone and you were like, I cannot believe this person is involved?

00:11:32.580 Oh, my God, constantly.

00:11:34.400 Seriously, all the time.

00:11:35.940 And you think that after – I've been covering black markets for 20 years that you think that after some time I'd sort of have an idea of who's involved.

00:11:43.960 It's not only – it's not only, you know, your neighbor that looks like a completely normal dude that's involved in some sort of illegal activity that you had no idea about.

00:11:54.400 You're like a Mets fan or whatever probably?

00:11:56.260 Yeah, but that is also happening all around.

00:11:58.400 I mean I filmed episodes.

00:11:59.920 We did an episode about assassins that was just a couple of miles from my home in L.A.

00:12:04.260 And I interviewed an assassin, a guy who's paid to kill, just a couple of miles in L.A., an undisclosed location but in L.A., not far from my house.

00:12:14.680 It's insane.

00:12:15.540 And where did you – do you go alone?

00:12:17.920 No, I go with my team but no security.

00:12:20.440 Usually people – usually I'm the only woman.

00:12:24.540 You know, there's – we have some female members of our team but in the majority of cases it's just me and my camera team who are all male, producer, director.

00:12:33.400 So we're six people usually.

00:12:36.480 Very often I'm the only woman.

00:12:38.380 And it's never with security.

00:12:41.620 That's a question we get asked a lot is do we travel with security?

00:12:44.560 And I think that what security would do for us is completely counterproductive to our job.

00:12:49.400 We're trying to convince people to trust us, to show them that we respect them.

00:12:54.700 And if I show up with security, I'm basically telling them I don't trust you and possibly I don't respect – why should you trust me, right?

00:13:00.980 Yeah, like I've thought about having security sometimes even just out in the world and I just keep shying away from it because I just – like I just don't like the energy of that.

00:13:11.100 But then also the world gets scary.

00:13:13.080 But I think in your place, yeah, you're coming with a bridge of like I want to be able to communicate.

00:13:17.460 I'm going to put my cards on the table that I'm here in peace.

00:13:19.680 Right, exactly.

00:13:20.620 When you pull up on an assassin, like they're like where do you meet them at?

00:13:23.640 Where do they go?

00:13:24.520 Yeah, so again, it's many months, sometimes years of trying to get – I've been wanting to do a story about assassins.

00:13:30.400 It's sort of of all the black markets, right?

00:13:32.380 Yeah, this is a former police officer in South Africa.

00:13:36.240 South Africa is one of the biggest countries in the world in terms of assassinations and assassination attempts and actual assassinations and people being killed.

00:13:43.320 And you can hire an assassin in South Africa for like $1,000.

00:13:46.620 And so we – from L.A., from interviewing that assassin, we went to South Africa to see why was it this crazy world and what could we learn from that.

00:13:55.800 And you were asking –

00:13:59.780 Yeah, but like when you go to meet an assassin, like is that –

00:14:01.840 How did I get a meeting with him?

00:14:03.740 Yeah.

00:14:04.120 So in the case of the American assassin, for many years, I've been wanting to do that story.

00:14:10.500 If you think of a black market, you think assassins is sort of the worst of the worst thing, right?

00:14:15.540 Not easy, right?

00:14:16.380 It's not as if you can go online and do a Google search for an assassin.

00:14:19.860 Like, yeah, I need – yeah.

00:14:20.760 Right.

00:14:21.060 But I had a – I have a contact here in L.A. that I've done many stories with who really connects me to people in the underworld.

00:14:27.300 He's a member of the underworld himself and he's a really colorful character.

00:14:33.240 I've done many stories with his help.

00:14:36.760 And I contacted him and he said, look –

00:14:39.340 It's like Gavin Newsom, is it?

00:14:40.120 I'm going to see what I can do.

00:14:42.680 That's just an old Gavin Newsom joke.

00:14:45.300 Sorry.

00:14:45.900 And I shouldn't joke around.

00:14:47.340 Sometimes I do joke around a little bit.

00:14:48.900 Let's go back in the story.

00:14:49.360 You can definitely joke around.

00:14:50.980 Okay.

00:14:51.320 Sometimes I feel like –

00:14:52.360 Please do.

00:14:53.280 These are serious topics, but it's not – doesn't – I hate it when people interview me and they think they can't have fun because they're talking about such serious –

00:14:59.540 I don't take myself too seriously, so please have fun.

00:15:03.420 Okay.

00:15:03.460 Thank you.

00:15:04.160 So you have this contact into the underworld.

00:15:06.300 Right.

00:15:06.780 And he connects you or does he connect you on text?

00:15:10.340 Does he connect you in person?

00:15:11.280 So, yeah.

00:15:11.680 So the thing is with this contact, it's – we always have to meet in person because obviously you can't – I can't text him.

00:15:16.940 Even WhatsApp and signal doesn't work.

00:15:18.680 I can't just text him.

00:15:19.440 I want to see, do you have an assassin for me?

00:15:22.520 So there's always an in-person meeting, which involves a lot of cigarettes.

00:15:26.120 We smoke a lot of cigarettes.

00:15:27.240 He smokes a lot of cigarettes.

00:15:28.800 I get nervous and I always smoke a lot of cigarettes when I'm with him.

00:15:32.140 It's actually one of the – I find – I'm not a smoker myself or – I smoke socially once in a while, but I don't smoke every day or even every week.

00:15:39.620 But I find it – it's the best – whatever you are in the world, if you have cigarettes with you and you're trying to interview some of these characters, you offer them a cigarette or you ask for one of their cigarettes, it immediately puts you on the same playing level.

00:15:52.020 Level playing field.

00:15:53.140 It really just helps – it helps calm my nerves.

00:15:55.180 It probably helps calm the nerves of the person I'm with.

00:15:57.520 So with this guy, it involves waiting for many hours for him to show up because he's never on time.

00:16:02.420 And then when he shows up, it's like many cigarettes.

00:16:04.800 Oh, it's a black market, you know.

00:16:05.680 A lot of cigarettes.

00:16:06.660 And then I usually tell him like, hey, we're looking into doing a story about this and that.

00:16:11.220 And in that case, it was assassins.

00:16:12.620 And he said, I actually know one.

00:16:14.500 He's a hitman.

00:16:15.200 I've known him for a long time.

00:16:16.920 And he organized this meeting.

00:16:18.320 And he actually drove me to meet the guy.

00:16:20.700 And he told me all off the bat, be careful.

00:16:24.040 This guy is – I think he's sort of bipolar.

00:16:26.460 I've seen this guy be super happy and suddenly pull out a gun and point it at somebody.

00:16:31.520 He's a little crazy.

00:16:33.200 And I said, but do you really think this guy is actually an assassin?

00:16:36.160 Because a lot of people just like to brag, right?

00:16:37.920 Oh, yeah.

00:16:38.560 Is he an actual assassin?

00:16:39.920 He said, dude, I've seen him being paid $180,000 or whatnot for a hit.

00:16:45.500 He's known.

00:16:47.140 In my community, people know him.

00:16:48.460 This is a guy that's well-known.

00:16:49.500 And so that was it.

00:16:51.260 And so we met.

00:16:52.020 And so we get there.

00:16:53.880 It's at night, undisclosed place, but very close to my home.

00:16:57.320 And he's waiting outside the car.

00:16:59.160 And the moment I get there, you could see he's like jittery and nervous and not happy.

00:17:03.540 And he was there because his friend asked for this favor.

00:17:06.480 And in his case, sometimes it's easier for me to sort of have that human connection and try to talk about how I want to understand what they do.

00:17:13.680 In his case, he was just not.

00:17:14.800 He was like, okay, here are the ground rules.

00:17:16.740 And he said immediately, see this?

00:17:18.200 First thing, he pulled out his gun.

00:17:19.520 He said, show me his gun.

00:17:20.300 He's like, if this is a fucking setup, if the police shows up, I'm going to point this.

00:17:23.820 I'm going to shoot you, all of you.

00:17:24.920 You and your team are all dead.

00:17:26.480 It's like, okay.

00:17:27.060 And so the rest of the interview was me being super afraid that what if police shows up?

00:17:32.020 Not because I'm there, but what if they just, what if a car just drives by?

00:17:35.800 Yeah, what if some chubby cop's hiding from his shift over here right off the edge of his DSW shoes or something?

00:17:41.400 Exactly.

00:17:41.940 So I was so scared.

00:17:45.060 I was so scared.

00:17:45.960 And I think it was the shortest interview we've ever done.

00:17:47.880 I think it lasts like 15, 20 minutes.

00:17:49.220 But also because, you know, there's the question, the initial questions is what do you do?

00:17:54.060 How often have you done it?

00:17:55.040 Why do you do it?

00:17:56.160 How do you live with yourself doing this kind of thing?

00:17:58.120 I always, the accountability questions, I always ask them.

00:18:00.720 But the part that he didn't like, it wasn't actually like, do you know that you're doing harm to people?

00:18:05.160 This is, what you're doing is horrible.

00:18:06.820 Like, do you feel guilty about this?

00:18:08.380 The questions he didn't actually like was when I started asking him, he says, I only kill men, no women and children.

00:18:12.880 And I asked him, but do you have children?

00:18:15.180 And basically, obviously, I was trying to get to the point that even if the child isn't killed, their parent, their dad is killed.

00:18:21.960 That's horrible and traumatic.

00:18:23.340 But he's already better than Netanyahu now.

00:18:25.140 He was like, don't ask me questions about my children.

00:18:27.440 Don't, you're trying to get all soft on me.

00:18:30.000 He got, he was like, his macho persona was getting, you know, he didn't like that.

00:18:37.700 He didn't like talking about his children?

00:18:39.160 No.

00:18:39.800 Because it probably made things very personal for him, maybe.

00:18:41.800 Yeah, yeah, I think, I think part of his persona being a hitman is that he, you know, you can't show emotion.

00:18:47.380 Right.

00:18:47.920 That's what, and so I was threatening to him in the sense that I was trying to get emotion out of him.

00:18:52.180 And he was not okay with it.

00:18:53.460 And he said, is this over?

00:18:55.080 And, and yeah, and then we left.

00:18:56.800 So.

00:18:57.220 And how did, did he say how he lived?

00:18:59.020 How did they live with what they do?

00:19:00.120 Or what?

00:19:00.900 Like, is it money?

00:19:02.820 Is it once you get into that, you can't get out of it?

00:19:05.080 Was there any?

00:19:05.700 Yeah.

00:19:05.980 So in his case, it was money.

00:19:07.680 And again, it was a 20 minute conversation.

00:19:09.260 I couldn't get much out of him.

00:19:10.420 But fast forward to South Africa, where I did interview a guy, an assassin for two hours.

00:19:15.620 And his story is fascinating, actually, because he, he got, he was, his parents were killed when he was eight or nine years old.

00:19:23.820 He was an orphan.

00:19:24.360 And he was bouncing around from like family member to family member.

00:19:28.500 Nobody wanted him.

00:19:29.520 He ended up on the streets when he was like 14 years old, no work, no education, and eventually started selling drugs for, as a drug dealer on the streets.

00:19:38.180 And eventually, somehow, even with that, there wasn't enough money.

00:19:41.640 And he figured out that he could make more money.

00:19:43.340 Somebody offered him more money to go and kill a few people.

00:19:46.400 And he did, or a person.

00:19:48.040 And he did.

00:19:48.960 And it worked.

00:19:49.600 He did.

00:19:50.480 He was high, he said.

00:19:51.640 He was very, very high.

00:19:52.560 He says the only way he could do it is by being high.

00:19:54.840 But he did it.

00:19:55.780 And he was able to do it.

00:19:57.340 Because a lot of people aren't, thankfully.

00:20:00.320 And so, while talking, it starts, he says, but I only kill bad people.

00:20:05.860 It's like, what does that mean?

00:20:07.120 Bad people, according to whom?

00:20:09.700 Well, they're bad people.

00:20:10.600 They're people who are stealing or who have raped or whatever, in his mind, he had justified for doing what he was doing.

00:20:17.880 And then, again, I talked about, do you realize that what you're doing, because he also said he doesn't kill women and children.

00:20:23.740 But do you realize that what you're doing to those women, and particularly to those children, is exactly what was done to you, right?

00:20:29.200 As a kid, you were left an orphan because of it.

00:20:31.420 It changed your whole life.

00:20:32.360 You're traumatized by it.

00:20:34.240 And he had a moment where he's like, I had never thought about that.

00:20:38.060 I had never in my life thought about that.

00:20:39.680 And we finished the interview, and he comes up to me.

00:20:42.060 And he's almost in tears, and he was like, you have no idea what this has done, this conversation.

00:20:47.960 Nobody has ever been interested in my life or why I do what I do.

00:20:50.600 And I've never been able to speak about myself.

00:20:52.960 And it was a therapy session for him.

00:20:55.160 That doesn't mean that I'm healing people.

00:20:57.620 I'm not.

00:20:58.340 But what I am, I think, is at least trying to understand and trying to show people who watch Trafficked why people turn to become criminals.

00:21:06.260 Because no one, I believe, is born wanting to be a criminal.

00:21:09.800 I believe that there is evil out there.

00:21:11.500 I used to not think that there was.

00:21:13.720 I believe that there is kind of pure evil, right?

00:21:18.920 Now, can it be coerced into better ways?

00:21:22.040 Because I don't know if all of it can sometimes.

00:21:24.620 I mean, there's some pretty dark stuff that happens out there.

00:21:27.080 For sure.

00:21:27.440 But I do agree with you also that everybody needs somebody to listen, which is crazy, right?

00:21:34.320 Yeah.

00:21:34.540 Like, even Satan probably is like, God, I wish sometimes somebody would just sit with me for a couple minutes, you know?

00:21:40.880 Maybe I wouldn't be such a piece of shit.

00:21:43.160 You know, I don't know.

00:21:44.160 But I think it's like the catharsis of having somebody see you, even if it's a part of you that you hate or it's a part of you you're so ashamed of and not look at it with disgust, you know?

00:21:58.760 You know, I think that, yeah, the catharsis and the exhale that can happen inside of somebody's soul from a moment like that is pretty powerful.

00:22:08.160 Right.

00:22:08.460 Man, you feel bad that people get stuck into those type of circumstances.

00:22:12.060 And you can also easily see how it can happen to people.

00:22:14.820 Absolutely.

00:22:15.780 You know, if you look at I may say that I believe evil exists as well.

00:22:20.200 But I do think that the vast majority of the people that I spend time with, whether the drug dealers or the traffickers or the scammers or whatnot, that these are people that are born out of the circumstances that they're born in.

00:22:30.840 A hundred percent.

00:22:31.360 There's nothing that says that Mexicans from Sinaloa, from the mountain regions of Sinaloa, where the Sinaloa cartel operates, there's nothing in their DNA.

00:22:41.200 There's nothing that says that they are prone to being more drug trafficked, have a higher number of drug traffickers than, you know, a person like myself born in Portugal or you were born in Louisiana, right?

00:22:52.760 Yes.

00:22:53.080 Yes.

00:22:53.380 Yes.

00:22:53.660 Young lady, I was born in Louisiana.

00:22:55.880 A beautiful state, by the way.

00:22:57.620 So I what is it?

00:22:58.960 It's because if you're born in an area where there aren't a lot of job opportunities, where your father, your grandfather are drug dealers, and this is what your whole, you know, many generations have survived on, you know, that's what you're going to be.

00:23:09.980 I remember interviewing a pimp also in L.A., funnily enough, where it was a young kid.

00:23:14.220 It was like 26 years old.

00:23:15.600 And I was asking him, why pimp?

00:23:18.560 I mean, did you?

00:23:19.060 And he was like, look, you know, you ask kids in rich neighborhoods or middle class, and they're saying they want to be lawyers and doctors.

00:23:25.840 In my neighborhood, the heroes were the pimps.

00:23:28.840 Yeah.

00:23:28.900 The people we looked up to were the pimps.

00:23:30.720 So all my life, I've just wanted to be a pimp.

00:23:33.240 Oh, yeah.

00:23:33.820 Everybody in my neighborhood was single parent family.

00:23:35.760 The pimps were the only people that at least had a gal around.

00:23:38.160 At least these pimps and hoes were in a relationship of some sort.

00:23:41.340 You know what I'm saying?

00:23:42.120 The rest, everybody else was just like jeepers.

00:23:44.280 Single.

00:23:44.980 Yeah, we're eating lunchables at night.

00:23:46.860 This fucking household sucks.

00:23:48.600 But yeah, at least pimps and hoes, like we're trying to figure something out, you know?

00:23:53.120 So yeah, I can.

00:23:54.260 And they were well-dressed and they were distributing money, right?

00:23:57.700 There's definitely a level of pomp and poverty of certain things, you know?

00:24:02.720 Yeah.

00:24:02.860 Yeah, like I even remember like getting like wheel covers for my first car.

00:24:09.380 Like it was a total piece of junk.

00:24:11.080 But it was my car.

00:24:12.100 I put – and I had like these fake rims on it.

00:24:13.880 But they were shiny and they looked like if another idiot like me saw it, he's like,

00:24:18.880 damn, that guy's got it.

00:24:20.660 Yeah, there's all these things of like having some sort of stature, I guess.

00:24:24.640 Yeah.

00:24:25.080 The status is really interesting because I was listening to a podcast the other day.

00:24:28.640 It was on Joe Rogan.

00:24:29.240 And I can't remember the name of the guy, but it was so interesting to me because we

00:24:32.120 all know that we all need community, right?

00:24:34.520 It's a huge part of being a human being.

00:24:36.200 We need community.

00:24:37.000 We need identity.

00:24:38.520 But the stat – there was – this guy, I cannot remember his name, but he talked about

00:24:42.080 – he did a book about the need, the biological need that we all have for status, which I

00:24:48.440 found really interesting.

00:24:49.220 So this sort of race to the top is actually something that's –

00:24:53.220 That's in our DNA?

00:24:54.040 Yeah.

00:24:54.240 Well, then that's interesting because they're talking about like, you know, if AI got to

00:24:59.020 certain levels, we'd have to create some sort of a universal basic income.

00:25:02.900 And then I wonder in what way – there would be few people that probably had a lot of ownership

00:25:07.400 over status.

00:25:08.840 And then in what ways would the rest of us look for status or create it?

00:25:13.780 Maybe we'd realize that there was an error.

00:25:16.000 Right.

00:25:16.340 Because I think even evolution over time like realizes sometimes, oh, this isn't the right

00:25:20.320 path.

00:25:20.760 And it's, of course, correct.

00:25:22.440 Maybe we would realize, oh, that this search for status isn't rewarding us as people.

00:25:28.080 And maybe just investing the status that we want for ourselves, if we can get that out

00:25:34.460 of somebody else's joy, creating joy in somebody else, then maybe that would be like a course

00:25:40.080 correction, you know?

00:25:40.920 I'm not sure.

00:25:41.720 Yeah.

00:25:42.880 I do think it's important for human evolution though, which is why probably that is within

00:25:46.920 us, right?

00:25:48.020 The wanting to become the best and then creating the best.

00:25:51.300 That's a good point, huh?

00:25:52.020 Probably.

00:25:52.940 Well, for certain, there's a thing inside of humans where we want to know why, right?

00:25:59.460 Like a lot of animals are running around, like, you know, you don't wake up and like

00:26:03.020 there's like a goat over there sitting like on the edge of the property and he's having

00:26:06.440 a coffee and he's like scribbling down why he thinks things are going on today or something.

00:26:10.680 Right.

00:26:10.780 But we like, we want answers.

00:26:12.580 Yeah.

00:26:12.820 You know?

00:26:13.320 Not everybody, but a lot of us.

00:26:15.080 Yeah.

00:26:15.340 Yeah.

00:26:15.620 I mean, you do.

00:26:16.220 You're obviously a very curious person and you, which is why you have a podcast and

00:26:19.920 you like talking to people, but I don't think everybody's that curious.

00:26:23.320 You do.

00:26:23.780 You're over there tickling Voldemort.

00:26:26.160 Okay.

00:26:26.560 You're over there bumming menthols off of Voldemort so that you can get a little bit of information.

00:26:31.980 So I'm out here on the, I'm in the tertiary.

00:26:35.420 You are in the trenches.

00:26:37.420 Tickling Voldemort is going to be on my fire right now.

00:26:39.820 I'm tickling Voldemort.

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00:30:39.800 Let's go down another road.

00:30:42.500 You had mentioned that what's happened signal are farcical, right?

00:30:48.000 I'm not sure if they're farcical.

00:30:49.120 I mean, I know that there are ways the government can go into it.

00:30:53.160 I mean, there's a Pegasus, which is a program developed in Israel, which was used by governments

00:30:58.700 all around the world, including Saudi Arabia.

00:31:00.900 At some point, it was being used by the United States government as well, in which they could

00:31:04.520 basically gain access to our phones and see everything inside, even the encrypted messaging

00:31:08.740 apps.

00:31:10.340 Absolutely.

00:31:10.620 However, it's still the app.

00:31:13.260 Those are still apps that I use.

00:31:14.940 But if we don't talk about locations and dates or the most sensitive information, we usually

00:31:24.580 talk face-to-face or certain ways that I'm not going to disclose.

00:31:28.620 For sure.

00:31:29.500 I went to Katara a few months ago to do comedy for some military personnel over there, and

00:31:36.660 part of me wondered if they had tapped my phone when I was there.

00:31:40.040 Yeah.

00:31:40.160 And because they kind of had me come very quickly at the last minute, I was like, why

00:31:44.280 aren't they having me come, you know?

00:31:45.880 Oh, wow.

00:31:46.440 I mean, I thought it was very-

00:31:47.360 Was it the government that invited you, or was it the military?

00:31:49.740 Yes, it was the hospitality people there.

00:31:52.100 And they were extremely hospitable, and they were very kind.

00:31:55.460 I didn't get- nothing inside of me set off any, like, qualms from them personally, like,

00:32:02.420 that they had any ill wear.

00:32:04.740 They were out for anything nefarious against me.

00:32:07.280 For the Qatari military that you were doing that?

00:32:08.980 It was for the U.S., it was a joint base.

00:32:12.020 Okay.

00:32:12.500 But it just happened very fast.

00:32:14.140 They're like, you know-

00:32:14.980 Can you come?

00:32:15.480 My agent was like, if you can be at the airport in, like, five hours, you can go.

00:32:18.540 Wow.

00:32:18.960 And you'll be back in 36 hours.

00:32:21.420 Wow.

00:32:22.120 And so it was just a lot, and I was like, I was very gracious.

00:32:24.940 I would go back in a heartbeat.

00:32:26.060 I had a great time.

00:32:27.820 So in a situation like that, do you go, do you already know what, do you have a set?

00:32:31.460 Do you have your comedy set already?

00:32:33.300 Oh, that was a hectic moment for me because, well, first I thought, there was a part of

00:32:37.020 me that was like, I'm going to, I could, are they going to kill me or whatever?

00:32:39.500 Because, you know, journalism has recently become a little bit more, and I wouldn't call

00:32:43.000 this journalism.

00:32:43.560 I would definitely call this somebody recovering from addiction, doing their best in front

00:32:47.220 of equipment from Best Buy.

00:32:49.920 But, but I would say that-

00:32:52.800 I love how they laugh.

00:32:53.740 But these days, that is kind of like what the world, you know, it's like, it's somebody

00:32:58.040 trying to share what they think or get information that's not mainstream media, right?

00:33:02.380 Yeah.

00:33:02.920 So, and I just didn't know.

00:33:04.800 I said, who knows if they put out a hit on, you know, the top 80 podcast, you know,

00:33:09.640 right.

00:33:10.280 Podcasts and like, okay, they're filing us in, and there was a part of me that was scared.

00:33:14.260 So what did you, did you do anything with your phone?

00:33:16.200 Well, the first thing I did was bring a friend.

00:33:17.980 I was like, I'm not dying by myself over there, you know?

00:33:20.320 So I brought my buddy Bizzle because he's had a good life.

00:33:23.200 And, and so I was like, yeah, I'm picking somebody that's, I'm not picking somebody that

00:33:26.760 still has to figure it out.

00:33:27.920 But anyway, no, I just, I didn't, because at first I didn't think that they would tap

00:33:32.180 my phone or that they could have, but I don't know.

00:33:34.820 Is it easier over there?

00:33:36.020 And then I asked Sean Ryan and he's like, they probably did.

00:33:39.180 They probably did.

00:33:40.100 They're probably, they tapped.

00:33:41.500 Yeah.

00:33:41.740 Yeah.

00:33:42.040 It's very possible.

00:33:42.860 You know, I went to Vietnam.

00:33:44.920 I did a story about the bride trafficking story.

00:33:47.040 We did was in Vietnam.

00:33:48.260 And this in this new season for the new season.

00:33:49.820 Yeah.

00:33:50.100 And it's a very sort of the government controls the press over there.

00:33:54.340 And so it took us months, months to even get the visa approved, the journalism visa to

00:33:58.460 go to the country where we can bring all our camera gear and all that.

00:34:01.560 And once we did, we were told immediately we were assigned a government minder, a guy who's

00:34:06.640 with us the whole time.

00:34:07.640 And he also had some law enforcement guy with him.

00:34:10.980 So every single interview we did, they were right there.

00:34:14.160 Oh, and we had to send them questions in advance before every interview.

00:34:17.620 And they would have to tell us it's OK to ask this.

00:34:19.960 It's not OK to ask that, which for me, for the kind of work we do is horrible.

00:34:24.120 We're trying to talk to, you know, these bride traffickers and these underworld characters,

00:34:28.340 the Valdemores of the world.

00:34:30.300 And and we were being spied and listen, not spied, listen to the whole time.

00:34:34.400 And then we actually found out through some sources there that they believed our phones

00:34:40.360 were absolutely being tapped.

00:34:41.820 And there was one day.

00:34:42.740 And so, oh, and that our vans, our rental, rental vans were being tapped as well.

00:34:48.380 And when we were told this one afternoon, the next morning we had we had to go get into

00:34:54.100 the vans and we were told that the fixer had taken our van because the van had had some

00:34:57.860 problems overnight.

00:34:58.960 And we were like, oh, we are definitely being listened to spied and listen to his bananas.

00:35:04.100 While your van was sitting there overnight doing nothing.

00:35:07.460 And it wasn't even his job.

00:35:08.560 I mean, he was the government minder.

00:35:10.480 And he took our van and disappeared with it for hours.

00:35:13.420 But like, OK, this is.

00:35:14.560 Yeah.

00:35:14.780 But that's the problem, too.

00:35:15.820 In some of those third world countries, you have to work two or three jobs even to get

00:35:18.600 things organized.

00:35:19.540 You're like, wait, I'm the fixer.

00:35:21.180 I'm also that I also have to install these spy equipment.

00:35:24.380 Come on, guys.

00:35:25.800 And then I get into the hotel room and we're staying at a really nice hotel in northern

00:35:30.380 Vietnam.

00:35:31.260 And the Rex Hotel.

00:35:32.620 Was that it?

00:35:33.040 It's not the Rex Hotel.

00:35:34.340 Is there a Rex Hotel?

00:35:35.320 There's a beautiful Rex Hotel, I believe, in Ho Chi Minh City.

00:35:39.060 Oh, you've been.

00:35:40.120 Yeah, I've just been there once when I was a student, but it was nice.

00:35:43.060 This was a long time ago.

00:35:44.220 We were in a place called Sapa.

00:35:45.400 It's up in the mountains.

00:35:46.220 OK.

00:35:46.680 Carry on.

00:35:47.160 Sorry.

00:35:47.700 And we and the phone is there is a light, a red light.

00:35:52.360 So basically, I'm calling another room and discussing when is dinner or something with

00:35:56.240 one of my colleagues.

00:35:57.000 And the red light is like going on.

00:35:59.500 And then basically all signs that I was being and then I was not on the phone.

00:36:04.960 And then the red light kept on going in moments that I was on my cell phone talking to people,

00:36:09.460 which they're not if I was being, in fact, tapped, which people there told me I was.

00:36:14.640 They're not doing a great job because figure out the light.

00:36:17.200 Yeah.

00:36:17.600 Yeah.

00:36:17.880 Like the craziest would have been if you just open the closet.

00:36:20.100 It's just like a little Vietnamese guy just over here.

00:36:22.600 With a glass.

00:36:24.000 Yeah.

00:36:24.540 It's like.

00:36:25.520 But that is kind of funny when you get into like, you know, like I mean, I don't want to

00:36:31.020 say poor because a lot of times I think of poor countries as more creative countries.

00:36:34.100 But you as you get into more creative countries, you'll see like more creative, fun things

00:36:38.400 like that that are actually.

00:36:39.600 Oh, that's why I love traveling.

00:36:41.000 Yeah.

00:36:41.480 It's pretty heartwarming to see the way that they're like, this guy's a spy.

00:36:46.280 This is your equipment.

00:36:47.180 It's just an empty pint glass.

00:36:48.620 And the guy's like, come on.

00:36:50.260 It's so good.

00:36:51.820 It's so good.

00:36:52.620 But the Biden administration had been there with the State Department.

00:36:56.660 Several members of State Department's phones had been tapped.

00:36:58.920 They found out.

00:36:59.800 So it is absolutely possible.

00:37:01.580 It actually happens.

00:37:02.620 And it happens at the highest level.

00:37:04.360 So for, you know, poor journalists like myself, where they're trying to control what I'm putting

00:37:08.820 out there, they were afraid that I was going to be critical of China because China is the

00:37:12.300 one are the ones who are sort of the kidnapped women, Vietnamese women are being taken to China

00:37:18.420 and they have a very sort of fragile alliance with China and they don't want to make them

00:37:24.520 angry.

00:37:24.820 So they had every they wanted to know everything we were doing and make sure they weren't going

00:37:30.380 to make China angry.

00:37:31.580 It's so sad that when you think about when you think about the news, right, because the

00:37:37.200 news or journalism is kind of the loudest voice of a nation, right?

00:37:42.600 Or just anything, you know, it's just it's so crazy how compromised our voices are at the

00:37:47.800 smallest level and at the loudest level.

00:37:49.720 Take me into some of that bride trafficking, because it sounds bride.

00:37:54.880 You're like, oh, congratulations, you know, you're like trafficking like, oh, this took

00:37:58.800 a turn, you know, in just one word.

00:38:01.940 Yeah.

00:38:02.320 Take me through some of that.

00:38:03.420 What do you kind of learn?

00:38:04.380 Like what took you over there in the first place?

00:38:06.600 And then what's that relationship between China and Vietnam?

00:38:09.380 Yeah.

00:38:09.980 So we started seeing these videos online of essentially these women, a lot of times girls,

00:38:15.680 teenage girls in markets in broad daylight being nabbed from the side of the street or

00:38:21.280 these markets and then being kidnapped.

00:38:23.600 Is that real?

00:38:24.300 Yes.

00:38:24.840 These exist.

00:38:26.520 And against their will, you'd see them screaming and yelling.

00:38:29.420 And we were, well, what is this?

00:38:32.860 And we found out that a lot of them were being victims of this bride trafficking, where it

00:38:38.560 exists because in China, you know, for many years they had the, it started in 1970, they

00:38:43.280 started the one child policy.

00:38:44.700 So this one, I remember seeing this one.

00:38:49.780 You see, there's a woman there.

00:38:51.560 Oh, how scary.

00:38:54.720 Sometimes it's their own families that sell them.

00:38:56.700 Um, a lot of times they're just kidnapped in the middle of the streets and taken across

00:39:01.560 the border to China.

00:39:02.820 And people can't help.

00:39:04.160 And, and so it's a little bit, it, uh, it, I think people decide not to help.

00:39:09.980 There's also a tradition, which doesn't help the situation very much, but there is a tradition

00:39:14.120 amongst the Hmong community where, which is terrible.

00:39:18.280 But if you're engaged, it's a tradition that you kidnap your wife to take to the father and

00:39:26.380 ask for permission for her hand.

00:39:28.860 And, and it's sort of done with the acceptance of the both families.

00:39:34.140 And sometimes the woman is last to know.

00:39:37.020 So they, what traffickers have been doing is that they've been using this cultural tradition

00:39:41.280 to benefit their own actual kidnapping.

00:39:44.400 Yeah.

00:39:44.540 They're sort of like a mariachi band or something.

00:39:46.340 And they think it's like part of the thing.

00:39:48.420 Oh, exactly.

00:39:49.380 And they're actually kidnapping these women.

00:39:51.580 And so they kidnapped these women and where do they, what, were you able to find out more?

00:39:55.380 Yeah.

00:39:55.660 So what happens is one child policy, a lot of, uh, in China, if you had more than one child,

00:40:01.360 you'll have heavy fines.

00:40:02.760 So as soon as you are pregnant, people wanted to know if it was a boy or a girl.

00:40:07.000 And in China, culturally, men are the breadwinners.

00:40:10.040 They're the ones who will take care of the parents when they're older.

00:40:13.480 And so it's very important to have men and not women for them.

00:40:16.240 Um, and so there were massive amounts of abortions done if they found out it was a female.

00:40:21.260 So nowadays, uh, there are more men in China than there are women.

00:40:24.760 Oh, that's got to suck.

00:40:26.060 Single men.

00:40:26.780 And again, if you're single in China, it's, you're really, it's looked down upon because

00:40:30.680 you're not procreating, you're not giving your parents grandkids.

00:40:34.240 And there's enormous pressure on these men to find wives in a, in, you know, there,

00:40:39.060 there just aren't enough.

00:40:40.280 But it's not even their fault.

00:40:41.380 The government set it up.

00:40:42.620 So it's like, what do you?

00:40:43.880 I know.

00:40:44.500 It's, it's terrible, but then obviously the last resort is that they go into these

00:40:49.300 poor communities in Vietnam and they pay these traffickers to kidnap them and pay them

00:40:53.640 thousands of dollars to, to have these women.

00:40:56.100 And the stories we heard were so sad.

00:40:58.080 I mean, this woman who was trafficked, um, in some cases, again, the families actually

00:41:03.300 sell them.

00:41:04.040 Uh, I don't believe it was the case with this woman.

00:41:06.420 She was trafficked.

00:41:07.200 She arrived in this apartment in the big city in China, and she was immediately locked in

00:41:11.800 a room and, uh, the husband would, the husband would rape her, would come in and then she

00:41:17.540 got pregnant.

00:41:18.000 And then they took the baby as soon as they, she gave birth, took a baby away from her.

00:41:22.360 And then she got another baby.

00:41:24.520 Um, and then took the baby away from her.

00:41:26.740 And then she was obviously depressed.

00:41:28.820 So depressed, uh, thinking of committing suicide, awful.

00:41:31.820 And she, at that point had given them two children.

00:41:35.020 The parents, the grandparents were living in the house too, and taking care of the kids.

00:41:37.980 And she convinced them to let the her go see her family in Vietnam because she hadn't seen

00:41:42.220 for like six years.

00:41:44.080 And she did.

00:41:45.420 And, and she had to make the decision.

00:41:47.060 Do I go and see my group, my parents in Vietnam and leave my kids behind?

00:41:51.020 Or do I stay here as a kidnap victim in a way that I can still have a relationship with

00:41:55.740 her kids?

00:41:56.820 Wow.

00:41:57.180 And so it was awful because she chose to go back to Vietnam knowing full well that

00:42:01.240 she will never see her kids again.

00:42:02.680 And she was showing me photos and it was just heartbreaking.

00:42:06.500 It was really horrible.

00:42:07.960 Sorry to bring it down this way.

00:42:09.700 No, I mean, it's just like, we live in such, uh, we all live in such different worlds so

00:42:16.060 often, you know?

00:42:17.140 I mean, you can literally be falling asleep at night in a warm bed and you're okay.

00:42:21.740 And then you, somebody else, somewhere else is getting on a train and having to never see

00:42:25.880 their children again, you know?

00:42:27.180 Having to make that decision.

00:42:28.440 Yeah.

00:42:28.780 But how did it behoove the, the guy, if he doesn't have a wife, if he needs to have a

00:42:33.580 wife, did he just want the woman only for sexual purposes?

00:42:38.600 Do some of them like in that situation?

00:42:41.500 In this situation?

00:42:42.620 Yes.

00:42:42.940 And other situations, they mostly it's because of having a woman, but other situations

00:42:47.960 it's also for companionship.

00:42:49.860 Um, although it's harder if you're detained and kidnapped, it's harder for you to, you know,

00:42:55.700 take the woman out for dinner, I'd imagine.

00:42:58.260 Um, but there were some situations where the woman sees themselves trapped and then it's,

00:43:02.500 there's a lot of shame that goes with being in that situation where then you prefer not

00:43:06.360 to go back home and you just accept your new reality, which is awful.

00:43:10.120 So, yeah, it's very depressing.

00:43:13.280 Yeah.

00:43:13.520 It's like that story you would see sometimes in movies where someone would get kidnapped

00:43:16.600 and then raped and then brought back home and then people would shun her because she

00:43:20.200 had been raped.

00:43:21.140 Yeah.

00:43:21.300 And it's like, yeah.

00:43:22.700 And the same thing, actually, it reminds me a lot of the African immigration and even

00:43:27.500 Central American immigration, but particularly African immigration where I've done many

00:43:32.760 stories about kids.

00:43:34.260 Uh, one was a soccer trafficking story where kids were promised by these fake agents that

00:43:38.540 they would take them to Europe to play in these big clubs and then they'd get there

00:43:41.740 and they'd sell their house, sell anything they have to pay the agent.

00:43:45.380 And then they'd get to Europe and they'd be abandoned.

00:43:47.000 Right.

00:43:47.360 But at that point, it was, they were so just embarrassed because they were sort of the hope

00:43:52.420 for the whole family, right?

00:43:53.460 This is the child that's going to bring us prosperity.

00:43:56.660 And then they were just embarrassed.

00:43:58.380 So they never spoke to their families again and they would just live in misery on the streets

00:44:02.600 of Europe.

00:44:03.360 So that was a scam.

00:44:04.620 They were taking people there.

00:44:05.600 They weren't, there was no soccer.

00:44:06.900 There was no setup.

00:44:07.840 People had paid money to be a part of this thing, this opportunity.

00:44:10.720 Yeah.

00:44:10.860 They made it look great with videos and pamphlets or whatever.

00:44:13.840 Exactly.

00:44:14.340 Yeah.

00:44:14.660 And then there was nothing.

00:44:15.540 There was nothing.

00:44:16.100 But the shame that's, yeah.

00:44:18.140 Well, how can I go home that I'm the one that I cost my whole, I cost my family everything.

00:44:22.540 Yeah, exactly.

00:44:23.380 So then these stories aren't told and nobody knows that this is actually happening because

00:44:27.220 in their minds, the family saying, oh, he must have made it really rich.

00:44:30.280 He's not contacting the family anymore.

00:44:31.960 The stories that they keep hearing is of success.

00:44:34.260 The same happens in the, you know, immigration that we see in Central America to the United States

00:44:39.200 or, you know, the people coming to the US, a lot of them are there.

00:44:42.320 They are hearing the stories of success.

00:44:44.000 Right.

00:44:44.240 And so that's in many cases what they're, they're not hearing the stories of desperation

00:44:48.460 and how hard it is to get here.

00:44:50.180 Yeah.

00:44:50.540 They're just hearing the advertising really, you know, or the positive advertising.

00:44:54.340 Are there brokers that are brokering those women in those countries?

00:44:57.400 Yeah.

00:44:57.660 Is it like a company that's like, okay, we need to try and get this many women a month?

00:45:02.260 Um, I'd love to know that.

00:45:04.380 And then how, how many, how often is this happening over there?

00:45:08.120 It's really hard to get numbers.

00:45:09.760 Uh, we spoke to organizations who are on the ground, sort of taking care of the victims.

00:45:13.480 Some of them managed to escape and come back.

00:45:16.420 And, uh, and they're, they're, they say it's in the thousands, but it's impossible to know

00:45:19.980 exactly how many.

00:45:20.700 It is unbelievably, the craziest part of it is because our hands were sort of tied behind

00:45:25.600 our backs in terms of reporting.

00:45:27.180 We had the government minder with us at all times, a police officer, like everything we

00:45:31.100 did, we went out in the middle of the night to try to film behind their backs.

00:45:34.660 It was, it was really hard.

00:45:36.520 But we actually were able to contact a group of local journalists who were actually doing

00:45:40.800 their own investigation.

00:45:41.600 And they were, um, mainly Chinese and they were able to film undercover.

00:45:46.800 So we saw them, they went and had meetings pretending to be buyers in Northern Vietnam.

00:45:51.860 And then they also went to some, um, uh, brothels in Vietnam, in China where you are given, they

00:46:00.460 showed us, it was like, uh, lists and lists with photos of people, of girls, their bodies,

00:46:07.140 them, you know, it's not like a modeling advertising.

00:46:09.940 Right.

00:46:10.380 Their height, their weight, their body.

00:46:12.060 But it's for girls that are for sale.

00:46:13.760 And so it slipped.

00:46:14.780 He, he was seeing like a whole catalog of beautiful girls.

00:46:18.240 Some, some of them look like they were 14 years old and they're going through the catalog

00:46:22.500 and then they can just point and say, I want this one.

00:46:24.800 And then that person is delivered to you.

00:46:26.960 It's crazy.

00:46:27.840 And a lot of them are being held basically at these brothels on the border in China already

00:46:32.920 where this guy also got access.

00:46:35.080 So he went in crazy video.

00:46:37.240 He went in, it's a long corridor full of dark corridor.

00:46:40.360 Full of rooms.

00:46:41.360 And then they, the brothel woman, he told them that he was there, uh, to meet a wife.

00:46:46.700 And, um, the one woman opened the door.

00:46:48.900 He goes in, he gets in and there's like three or four women in there and there's total darkness.

00:46:53.220 He can't see a thing at all.

00:46:54.520 And he's hearing, he, they're communicating very low and in, in talking to him and saying, um, what, what do you want?

00:47:02.840 What, what sex do you want?

00:47:04.480 Um, let's do it.

00:47:05.780 Because, and he was like, oh no, because there's a journalist, undercover journalist saying, I don't want sex.

00:47:10.040 And she's like, please, they'll beat us if you don't have sex with us.

00:47:13.080 And, uh, and, and he, she, he had been locked inside at this point by the woman, the brothel owner on the outside.

00:47:19.580 So he had to do it?

00:47:20.640 No.

00:47:20.960 And then he managed to figure out a way where he started knocking on the door and saying that he had to go, that he, something had happened and came up with an excuse to leave.

00:47:28.580 But even him, and he's an undercover journalist that covers the worst of the worst crimes he was telling me.

00:47:33.700 It was one of the most depressing and nerve wracking things he's ever done in his life.

00:47:37.300 And these three, four women hold up in there in total darkness and forced to have sex with men that come like this.

00:47:43.660 And then a lot of them are sold to become brides as well.

00:47:47.800 Yeah.

00:47:48.340 It's dark.

00:47:49.320 Is there regulation in those areas over that sort of thing?

00:47:52.560 They say there is, but obviously what we found is that there isn't.

00:47:56.040 And this is part of a new episode?

00:47:57.800 Yeah.

00:47:58.000 This is one of the episodes of this season.

00:48:00.920 Yeah.

00:48:02.000 How do you leave a place like that and not bring it with you, not feel like you have to go back and do something?

00:48:09.420 What is that like?

00:48:10.360 I think that's the hardest part.

00:48:11.780 It's not so much about bringing this.

00:48:14.780 A lot of people, you know, I get asked sometimes how do I not, why am I not depressed and, you know, at home, locked on drugs because of all of what I've seen.

00:48:24.420 It's not so much for me.

00:48:25.400 It's not so much that.

00:48:26.360 It's the fact that, you know, we live a little bit on somebody's nightmare for a day, you know, and then we have the privilege of coming back.

00:48:38.160 You know, we're almost like it feels like we're exploiting their nightmare because we want them to share their stories.

00:48:45.300 Yeah, I can see how it could feel like that at times.

00:48:48.160 How do you manage that feeling?

00:48:50.380 I mean, yeah, how do you manage that?

00:48:53.420 I'd say that the way that I rationalize it, I'm not patting myself on the back because I think journalists love to say that they have a very important job.

00:49:02.320 And I do think journalism is important, but I'm not the kind of journalist that goes around, you know, telling people I've got the most important jobs.

00:49:11.780 There are jobs that are more important.

00:49:13.860 You know, you don't see teachers going around saying their jobs are important.

00:49:16.420 And I have no idea why journalism, neither one of us is less or whole, you know what I'm saying?

00:49:20.220 Let's be realistic.

00:49:22.440 But I do think that the way I rationalize it basically is that, you know, putting the story out there and being able to gain access to these worlds and showing why this is happening.

00:49:34.500 I'm hoping that then we are holding power accountable.

00:49:37.360 We're telling those people in power that this is happening and trying to change the system because at the end of the day, for me, it's not so much that people are broken.

00:49:46.320 It's that the systems are broken, the systems that allow these things to happen.

00:49:50.580 You know, whether we talk about immigration or we've reported on fake pharmaceuticals and how the Mexican cartel and groups in India are making these really dangerous, deadly pharmaceuticals that Americans, like 20 million Americans cannot afford medication.

00:50:06.360 Their own, that they need, life-saving medication sometimes.

00:50:10.380 And so they're having to resort to online pharmacies in India or going down to Mexico to these border pharmacies.

00:50:16.460 And a lot of times that stuff is deadly and tainted with other drugs and other chemicals.

00:50:20.660 And what does that tell me?

00:50:21.720 It doesn't tell me.

00:50:22.340 It tells me that people are exploiting a broken system.

00:50:25.300 And it's our responsibility and our government that has allowed this to happen.

00:50:29.060 Why is it that 20 million Americans can't afford life-saving treatment, right?

00:50:32.740 Like, what does it say about us more than what does it say about the guy in India who's making these drugs, you know?

00:50:39.100 Yeah.

00:50:40.500 It's wild that, you know, most people are afraid to get in sick nowadays just because they're like, I don't know if I want to go through all the bullsh, the stress of even trying to get better with this system.

00:50:49.420 It's almost like it tries to kill you while you're just trying to get some basic medicine, you know?

00:50:54.680 It's heartbreaking, man.

00:50:57.500 It's heartbreaking.

00:50:58.520 Over your 20 years, you know, kind of investigating the dark arts, if you will, you know, have you noticed things getting, do you think, better?

00:51:09.700 And I know that's a big kind of blanket term.

00:51:12.440 Or have you noticed things getting not better?

00:51:15.820 Not better.

00:51:16.620 Not better?

00:51:17.220 Not better.

00:51:17.860 So most people don't know this, but 38% of our global economy are these gray and black markets.

00:51:25.040 It's what economists call the hidden third.

00:51:26.700 Wait, what are you saying?

00:51:28.620 That almost 38% of the global economy are these black and gray markets.

00:51:33.560 38% of the global economy, you have the GDP of Earth?

00:51:36.440 So the drug trade alone is estimated at between $600 to $800 billion.

00:51:43.800 That's more than many GDPs put together.

00:51:47.540 Scams, last year alone, they went up, I think it was $12.5 billion were scammed from Americans last year alone.

00:51:55.560 That industry has been growing.

00:51:57.340 Every single year has been doubling and doubling.

00:51:59.620 Well, let's look at this first one for a second.

00:52:00.880 So when you say that drug trade.

00:52:03.600 Yeah, the drug trade.

00:52:04.720 What percentage of the global economy are gray or black markets?

00:52:06.760 Black market, shadow economy, estimates, commonly suggest that black market accounts for around 22% to 23% of global GDP.

00:52:13.440 In developed countries, the black market typically constitutes about 10% to 15%.

00:52:17.100 Right, so this is just black markets.

00:52:19.320 Gray markets are things that aren't necessarily illegal but are unregulated and untaxed.

00:52:25.200 So things like selling fruit on the streets or clothes or things that aren't regulated or taxed.

00:52:32.160 Okay, do you think that that's a little bit more the gray market is more like somebody trying to make ends meet than it is somebody taking advantage of somebody?

00:52:39.320 I think a lot of it is just people trying to make ends meet and a part of it is people trying to stay still on this side of the law.

00:52:48.500 But that is not achievable for everybody.

00:52:50.740 Not everybody can do that.

00:52:52.080 So one of the first episodes we ever did for traffic was about cocaine.

00:52:56.320 And we went in Peru, we were in Colombia, and we basically saw what it means for a kilo of cocaine to go where it's made.

00:53:03.300 We went to the jungles of Peru.

00:53:04.980 We saw how it's being made in these big pits with the coca leaves.

00:53:07.600 How does it start? Take me through it a little bit.

00:53:09.300 Oh, it's fascinating. It's actually super fascinating.

00:53:11.240 Yeah, I'll end. I want to like hear. I want to hear about it.

00:53:12.920 Yeah. You've got the jungles of Peru, the coca leaves.

00:53:17.700 They harvest the leaves.

00:53:19.660 And you can see fields and fields of coca leaves that have existed for decades in this area of Peru.

00:53:25.140 It's the Vraim Valley of Peru.

00:53:27.840 And it's sort of—

00:53:28.660 Play some soft music, too, Nick, if you don't mind.

00:53:30.720 Sorry. I've had a—enjoyed cocaine in my life.

00:53:34.080 But no, okay, going in Peru.

00:53:35.740 I've never actually tried it.

00:53:36.840 Yeah, I was going to ask you that in a second.

00:53:38.480 I've been offered it so many times.

00:53:40.320 I bet.

00:53:40.700 By like the purest cocaine traffickers.

00:53:44.120 You've got to at least.

00:53:46.140 So this is then they dry the leaves, and then they put them in a big pit.

00:53:49.760 So we went in the middle of the night.

00:53:51.420 We're going down this sort of trail in the middle of the night.

00:53:54.780 It's super muddy.

00:53:55.760 It's sort of rainforest-y, raining all the time.

00:53:58.300 And I'll never forget where it's dark.

00:54:01.640 And we're carrying—all of us are carrying—we're like six of us carrying equipment, plus the guys that are taking us to the place where they're making cocaine.

00:54:08.380 And my DP, who's French, he was, with his very French accent, complaining.

00:54:16.200 He's like, oh, I can't.

00:54:17.240 What do I do?

00:54:17.880 I can't.

00:54:18.500 And complaining that he's like, we're slipping and sliding everywhere.

00:54:21.840 Meanwhile, holding these, like, very expensive cameras and canvas bags full of gear.

00:54:26.680 And we thought it was going to be, you know, like, we'll be there in five minutes, ten minutes.

00:54:30.700 And 45 minutes later, we're still walking down this rainy path in the middle of the night with nothing.

00:54:36.660 No light at all.

00:54:37.680 You can see nothing.

00:54:38.060 Yeah, we're such Americans.

00:54:38.720 We're like, oh, we'll just park and then walk right over there.

00:54:40.640 Yeah, that's what we thought was going to happen.

00:54:41.840 We'll get the closest parking spot.

00:54:43.340 It's so true.

00:54:44.660 And we'll just walk.

00:54:46.420 And meanwhile, yeah, and then there's no light.

00:54:49.560 And I basically have, as I have now, the phone with my, at the time, was another photo of me and my son.

00:54:54.740 And this, oh, and they told us we can't use flashlights, even though we had flashlights with us,

00:54:58.120 because they didn't want people around the valley to see this, because what they were doing was they could get them killed.

00:55:05.060 And so I'm only using the light from the front of my phone to sort of just see where I was walking.

00:55:10.380 You know, I'm covered in mud.

00:55:12.060 We get there and there's this pit, enormous pit.

00:55:14.620 It's like an Olympic-sized pool pit with all the drugs, all the cocaine leaves being mixed with products that then they, once, it stays like this for days.

00:55:25.480 And then they sort of bring it out into these buckets, gigantic blue buckets, and they mix it with everything from gasoline and dye and all these products that eventually get made into this powder.

00:55:38.380 And so we are literally seeing the whole process.

00:55:41.360 And as this is happening, we start hearing noises in, you know.

00:55:46.860 Oh, yeah.

00:55:47.320 And that's the moment that we knew.

00:55:49.040 They were like, okay.

00:55:50.100 So as, you know, as long as it took us to come down that valley, it took us about half that time to go off because we were running out.

00:55:57.040 Yeah, I even look at a bag of cocaine.

00:55:58.520 I start hearing shit, you know.

00:55:59.880 So I feel you there.

00:56:01.020 I definitely.

00:56:02.420 Anyway, carry on.

00:56:03.400 You could actually.

00:56:04.500 Was there a gift shop?

00:56:05.160 You could smell it.

00:56:06.220 Oh, yeah.

00:56:06.680 In the air, you could kind of smell it.

00:56:07.560 You could smell the petrol.

00:56:08.720 You could smell the whole thing.

00:56:10.000 And a bunch of us were worried that we were going to get.

00:56:13.220 I've been in fentanyl labs, and that's even worse because there you can actually feel your body starting to, like, warm up.

00:56:19.440 The, like, physical.

00:56:21.880 We were in an enclosed fentanyl lab in Sinaloa, Mexico, where the chemists, we're all.

00:56:27.460 We're actually using, like, hazmat suits and masks because we're an American group.

00:56:31.600 So, meanwhile, these guys have, like, you know, like a bandana around their face, and they're touching the powder.

00:56:38.780 And he's telling me, I was like, how do you know when it's ready?

00:56:40.840 And he's saying, because I can feel it.

00:56:42.720 My heart starts beating really fast, and that's when I know the fentanyl is ready.

00:56:46.660 It's insane.

00:56:47.620 You should watch that episode.

00:56:48.640 Oh, that's crazy.

00:56:49.640 Really crazy.

00:56:50.260 And that was last season?

00:56:51.260 That was actually season one.

00:56:52.500 We did a first season at fentanyl.

00:56:54.060 But then, just to finish the cocaine, because it's so fascinating how it gets out of this valley, this region, we then spent the night with these kids, 16, 17-year-old kids, who are backpacking and taking these, you know, 20, 30 pounds of cocaine or 20-something kilos of cocaine on their backs for days on end, for a whole week in the middle of, you know, really rough terrain, seeing some of their friends being killed in front of them by rival groups.

00:57:20.720 One of the ones I interviewed, I will never forget this interview, it sort of very much changed the show, this interview that I did with them, is the second episode we ever did of Trafficked.

00:57:31.540 And it was, I'm talking to this kid, and I'm asking, like, why do you do this?

00:57:36.660 I mean, you've seen friends being killed.

00:57:38.880 It's back-breaking work.

00:57:41.040 You know, they get insects all over.

00:57:43.520 They're sleeping out in the open for days.

00:57:45.560 It's just horrible, terrible conditions.

00:57:47.380 And he's saying, look, I've always wanted to go to college, and I want to be a dentist, and my family is super, super poor, and they're never going to be able to afford my education.

00:57:55.660 And so this is the only job that's afforded to me.

00:57:57.920 I do this once a month, and I get X amount of money, and I'm saving that money to one day become a dentist.

00:58:02.920 I thought, and dentists is an interesting, why dentists, right?

00:58:05.060 You hear a lawyer, you hear a doctor, you don't hear dentists.

00:58:07.340 And he says, because there's a lot of ads for dentists in my town, and they all show people with a big smile, and I want to make people smile, and I want to make them happy.

00:58:15.140 And so it's stories like this, and I seriously started hearing more and more stories like this that I was like, okay, I think this is the message of the show.

00:58:22.900 Yes, it's a dangerous world.

00:58:24.220 We should be careful.

00:58:25.360 We should explain and, you know, shine a light in these underworlds.

00:58:29.300 But ultimately, I think the message of the show is to show is that this could happen to any of us.

00:58:34.800 You know, depending on where you were born, you know, it's like the wheel of history turns, and where and when you're born determines whether you get lifted or crushed by it, right?

00:58:46.140 And that's the idea, I think, behind the show, and so much of what I've learned.

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01:02:59.220 I think you're right.

01:03:00.440 I think, you know, it's like you could look at it as like X, like, what's it called when you take advantage of something?

01:03:08.080 Exploiting.

01:03:08.960 Right.

01:03:09.300 But I think you have to shine a light on something or people can't even see it, you know?

01:03:13.640 So I don't think it would be if people are like, you're exploiting.

01:03:16.440 I'm like, good.

01:03:17.320 Someone has to go exploit these things just to give us an idea.

01:03:20.100 I think it's where even when I was a child or a teenager, it's where you got ideas like you would see certain documentaries or things that would make you want to join, like Amnesty International or different groups that could have a voice that made you ever even think about having a voice, you know?

01:03:35.140 Right.

01:03:35.260 So, yeah, I think that the positive far outweighs the risk of any negative.

01:03:41.360 And you must have decided that a long time ago or you wouldn't have kept going.

01:03:43.840 Yeah, I think so.

01:03:44.740 Yeah.

01:03:45.100 I like to think that there's some good that is being done in just raising awareness to all of this.

01:03:51.680 But it does feel bad sometimes.

01:03:54.340 It just, yeah, it feels wrong.

01:03:55.720 Like it's, yeah, a day trip in somebody's nightmare, essentially.

01:03:58.480 Yeah.

01:03:59.460 Yeah, I just think it would be so hard to leave.

01:04:01.440 Have you ever kept in contact with people from some of these experiences?

01:04:05.040 So many of them.

01:04:05.760 Yeah, I've kept in contact with so many.

01:04:07.940 Yeah.

01:04:08.420 You know, one of the first stories I ever did for an American organization, a media company, it was for Current TV.

01:04:17.320 Do you remember Al Gore's TV station?

01:04:18.400 Oh, yeah, I remember Current TV.

01:04:19.100 Yeah.

01:04:19.280 Oh, my God.

01:04:20.100 Dude, I was with my buddy Ezra yesterday and he used to, Ezra Cooperstein?

01:04:25.100 Yeah, of course.

01:04:25.440 You know him?

01:04:25.880 Of course.

01:04:26.520 No way.

01:04:26.900 Of course I know Ezra, yeah.

01:04:28.220 Bring up Ezra, man.

01:04:29.920 I love Ezra.

01:04:30.780 Oh, how do you, oh, you know Ezra from the podcasting world, of course.

01:04:33.620 Yeah, Ezra and I just went to, uh, Ezra's great.

01:04:36.220 I'm working with him right now.

01:04:37.300 Are you really?

01:04:37.600 I'm starting my own podcast.

01:04:38.780 Are you?

01:04:39.320 The Hidden Third.

01:04:41.040 Congratulations.

01:04:41.720 Yeah, it's with Ezra.

01:04:42.320 That's so awesome.

01:04:42.800 I love Ezra.

01:04:43.380 He's got a big heart.

01:04:44.480 He's a neat guy.

01:04:45.200 Oh, he's great.

01:04:46.000 He's awesome.

01:04:46.520 Yeah, I've known him since the Current TV days.

01:04:48.320 That's so funny.

01:04:49.180 I didn't know until yesterday that he'd ever worked at Current TV.

01:04:51.640 Yeah.

01:04:52.080 We were in San Francisco.

01:04:55.020 Did you know it?

01:04:56.040 For an interview.

01:04:56.820 And we didn't know.

01:04:57.320 We just said, you know, I used to live around here.

01:04:58.460 I used to work with Al Gore.

01:04:59.840 I was like, oh, cool.

01:05:00.820 Do you remember that company at all, though?

01:05:02.440 I remember hearing about Current TV.

01:05:04.300 Do you remember it, Nick?

01:05:06.160 Oh, Nick.

01:05:07.040 Just say yes.

01:05:07.700 I do remember it.

01:05:08.500 I remember it.

01:05:09.180 What do you remember about it, Zach?

01:05:10.140 Thanks, Zach.

01:05:10.760 I was kind of an outlier.

01:05:13.160 I was really tapped into political stuff, so I was paying attention.

01:05:16.140 I was at like 13 paying attention to that.

01:05:18.920 Anyway, it was great.

01:05:19.940 It was basically, it was a little bit of YouTube before YouTube.

01:05:22.820 It was like, the idea was that cameras were getting so cheap and easy to use that they

01:05:26.740 were going to empower young people to get out there and film and edit.

01:05:31.120 So, essentially, they gave me, they offered me money to go around the world with my husband

01:05:37.480 at the time when we started with my boyfriend, became my husband, and we would travel and

01:05:41.120 did, you know, the war in Sri Lanka, the Lebanese-Hezbollah war.

01:05:46.220 That's actually was our honeymoon was covering that war.

01:05:48.860 So, we, I know.

01:05:50.400 So, we travel all around the world doing these amazing stories together, and we do everything.

01:05:54.700 We'd film, we'd edit, we, the whole package, and then just deliver it to Current TV, and

01:05:58.460 they'd offer, they'd give us X amount of money per minute of product, of TV delivered.

01:06:03.760 And the first story I ever did for Current TV, when I was still trying to like convince

01:06:07.720 them to hire me, was a story about the death train.

01:06:10.100 I'm sure you've heard of it.

01:06:10.900 It's the train-

01:06:12.120 In Indonesia, you mean?

01:06:13.200 No, it was in Mexico.

01:06:14.440 So, it's the train that carries undocumented immigrants from southern Mexico to northern

01:06:20.040 Mexico to the border with the United States.

01:06:22.280 So, it used to be, yeah, exactly.

01:06:24.680 So, it's a cargo plane, and people-

01:06:26.180 It's not Amtrak, is it?

01:06:27.460 It's, no, it's just a cargo train that carries everything from-

01:06:31.420 Oh, okay.

01:06:31.880 So, it brings all kinds of stuff.

01:06:33.180 Yeah.

01:06:33.280 Oh, yeah.

01:06:33.560 Is this the train that every couple of years is on the political kickball, like kick this

01:06:36.780 round, like they're coming back or whatever?

01:06:38.440 Yeah.

01:06:38.620 It's not, it doesn't operate this way anymore, thank God, because it actually is responsible

01:06:43.560 for lots of deaths and amputations.

01:06:45.560 But we were there at the peak of when this was operating, and it was like that.

01:06:49.360 You see the hundreds of people on the-

01:06:51.460 Just packed on top?

01:06:52.580 They were packed on top with no safety measures.

01:06:55.200 Obviously, they're on top of a cargo.

01:06:56.620 Sometimes, they were holding on to the sides of it, and they would go for days and days

01:07:00.240 on end just to get to this northern border where they could cross into the United States

01:07:04.340 in the sun.

01:07:05.000 And one of the kids we met when we first got to this town, Tapachula, which is right on

01:07:11.620 the border with Mexico and Guatemala, was a kid who was in a clinic, and he had lost

01:07:16.200 an arm.

01:07:16.760 He'd been amputated, lost an arm to the train.

01:07:19.120 He tried the train.

01:07:20.220 He fell off the train.

01:07:21.780 You know, it went right over his arm.

01:07:23.400 He lost his arm.

01:07:25.000 Three days later, we are taking, we have convinced the guy that sort of runs the train, this part

01:07:30.320 of the train, the railroad, we convinced him to let us go, me and my then boyfriend, who

01:07:36.540 became my husband, Darren, to get on top of the train and do a certain amount of time.

01:07:42.860 I think we did like almost a day or half a day or something on the train so we could see

01:07:46.780 just how difficult and dangerous it is, and we could film with the characters we were following

01:07:50.940 because we were following a group of women from Guatemala that left their homeland to try

01:07:55.640 and reach the U.S. and provide a better life for their families.

01:07:59.140 And we're on top of the train, no, and we're heading towards the train to get on top of

01:08:04.600 the train, and who do we see but Guillermo, the guy, the kid, Guatemalan kid who had lost

01:08:09.120 his arm, who's going to try that journey again.

01:08:11.420 And there he was.

01:08:12.520 And he, we then introduced him to Maria, who was the girl, the woman we were filming,

01:08:17.220 and they traveled the whole way together.

01:08:20.440 And eventually, Guillermo actually didn't make it across one more time.

01:08:24.100 He was detained on the border.

01:08:25.360 And two years later, and we kept in touch, and two years later, he was still texting me

01:08:30.960 and saying that he was still trying to make it across.

01:08:32.960 And so, yeah, I stay in touch with a lot of these people that I report on.

01:08:36.640 Gosh.

01:08:37.560 Yeah.

01:08:38.680 What inside of you makes it be able to handle this type of stuff?

01:08:42.100 Have you thought about that over the years?

01:08:43.320 Because I think that it's interesting, you know, like sometimes even as viewers of things,

01:08:47.160 it's hard for us to take on.

01:08:48.360 It's hard to make it through certain moments of your stories to listen, you know, even compassionately.

01:08:53.260 It's tough, you know, it's tough on our hearts.

01:08:56.500 What do you think that is, that gives you that ability or resilience or, I don't know.

01:09:04.540 Coldness?

01:09:05.100 Yeah.

01:09:05.800 Is that what you're trying to say?

01:09:07.160 No, I wasn't really.

01:09:08.460 No, I don't think it is a coldness.

01:09:09.680 No, it's not a coldness.

01:09:10.840 I don't think it's a coldness either.

01:09:11.800 Yeah.

01:09:12.360 I do.

01:09:12.780 I think it's a couple of things.

01:09:13.880 I think it's.

01:09:14.860 Like I'm genuinely like, yeah, how are you able to do it, right?

01:09:17.440 Yeah.

01:09:17.620 And do you think that there's, because some people, we have to hear about things.

01:09:21.080 So like some people have to have a gift.

01:09:22.620 Like if you told the messenger something and he couldn't hear it and his heart stopped,

01:09:26.500 then no one would get the message, right?

01:09:28.480 So there has to be a reason that the messenger's heart is built a certain way.

01:09:32.220 Right.

01:09:32.360 So I think that's what I'm asking.

01:09:33.580 Yeah.

01:09:33.840 Yeah.

01:09:34.180 I like that.

01:09:35.520 I think that a few things, I think curiosity, I've always been incredibly curious.

01:09:39.520 You know, I decided I wanted to be a journalist when I was 12 years old, mainly because I'd

01:09:43.000 watched anchors on television talking about the whole world.

01:09:46.580 And I was like, these are the most intelligent people.

01:09:48.680 You know, I didn't know they were reading from teleprompters.

01:09:50.560 I just thought their ability of retaining information was out of this world.

01:09:54.760 I was like, okay, that's what I want to do.

01:09:56.220 I want to retain this amount of information as well.

01:09:58.600 So I think I've always been curious and wanted to know about the world.

01:10:01.620 I've always loved traveling.

01:10:03.220 I've always felt comfortable.

01:10:04.820 I think part of growing in a small country, growing up in Portugal, a small country, loving

01:10:08.560 to travel and go out, I think very much explorer blood.

01:10:11.540 You know, we have a whole history, a big history in Portugal with the explorers exploring the

01:10:15.140 world.

01:10:15.380 And I think that's very much in my veins and my blood.

01:10:18.560 I think I'm very, I don't think my parents were never worried or were scared of the world

01:10:25.060 around me.

01:10:26.140 They were never the kind of parents that would say, don't do this because it's dangerous.

01:10:29.760 They weren't helicopter parents.

01:10:31.040 They never were.

01:10:31.560 And I think that just allowed me to have a, like, look around the world and not see danger

01:10:37.740 and look around the world and see opportunity and excitement.

01:10:41.700 I think that's a big thing.

01:10:43.200 I've tried to raise my son the same way, you know, because there are those parents that

01:10:47.700 everything, oh, don't watch out, don't go, don't climb that tree, don't watch out for

01:10:51.180 those steps and everything.

01:10:52.580 And I think you're passing on that sort of anxiety to your kids.

01:10:55.740 So I, my parents were never like that.

01:10:57.460 You know, I moved, I moved to the West to study, but then I moved to the Middle East.

01:11:02.240 The more in Iraq was happening, I moved to the Middle East and I started my career doing

01:11:05.680 this crazy job.

01:11:06.580 And never once have they told me, be careful.

01:11:09.140 Or of course they worry about me and they love me, I hope, but they don't, they're not,

01:11:13.520 they won't never tell me not to do it.

01:11:15.320 Um, uh, they, they, they support me, um, and trust me, um, I think, which is very important.

01:11:22.960 And then I think I'm really good at compartmentalizing, uh, things in my life in general.

01:11:29.020 Um, I can be with you right now and really enjoy this experience.

01:11:33.560 Um, I mean, maybe this is not a good example cause we haven't, but I can be with my friends

01:11:37.960 in Portugal that I love and adore and have been my friend since I was five years old.

01:11:42.420 And I love every second and I think I'm going to die when I leave them and then I'm somewhere

01:11:47.300 else and I am there, you know, and I'm there.

01:11:50.400 And I think that's helped me in the work that I, that I do.

01:11:54.300 Yeah.

01:11:55.100 I think you would have to be able to do those things.

01:11:57.060 That's pretty fascinating.

01:11:58.060 What a neat, what a neat ensemble of life you've got to experience.

01:12:04.020 I'm very lucky.

01:12:05.080 Um, you have an episode in traffic this season about, uh, about rehab scams.

01:12:10.860 Yeah.

01:12:11.260 How do you, how do you get into that and what do you learn?

01:12:13.420 Yeah.

01:12:13.800 You know, I've been covering the opiate crisis for a long time and drug, the drug business,

01:12:18.940 um, as well.

01:12:20.260 And, and just seeing, um, you know, talking to people that have gone to rehab as well.

01:12:25.440 And lots of times I heard horror stories.

01:12:28.560 And so this season we decided to really try to investigate what was happening.

01:12:32.000 And we started our reporting in, um, in Arizona, uh, where basically there are all these

01:12:37.860 sort of rehab clinics that are there to exploit Native Americans, mainly Native Americans, because

01:12:44.820 I know it's really horrible.

01:12:47.080 Um, Native Americans get access to healthcare easier, uh, much easier than, uh, than non-Native

01:12:53.760 Americans in the state.

01:12:54.700 Um, it was something that started during COVID where you can just basically call the health

01:12:59.420 department and say, you know, this is my name, this is my Native American ID number, and they

01:13:04.460 will give you insurance like, just like that.

01:13:07.040 It was to make it easier for them.

01:13:08.280 But what that has happened, what has happened because of it is that now they're seen as

01:13:12.720 targets, as, um, you know, prizes for these black market rehab operators that set up these

01:13:20.100 clinics.

01:13:20.680 They basically go to reservations.

01:13:23.040 It's insane.

01:13:24.040 They go around these reservations telling, um, convincing people that have problems with

01:13:30.280 drugs or alcohol, um, to come into, to try, to come into their vans.

01:13:35.140 It's these white vans.

01:13:36.200 And so it's a little, I've heard about the white vans for many years and you always think

01:13:41.660 it's sort of a myth, right?

01:13:42.600 But it turns out that actually in Arizona, it's not a myth.

01:13:45.720 So it's a very rehab thing to the white van.

01:13:47.820 Like usually if there's a detox center or if there's a halfway house, they usually come

01:13:52.080 in a white van.

01:13:52.580 So it's very typical to see that in that community.

01:13:54.980 So that's exactly it.

01:13:55.840 So they go in these white vans, they convince people.

01:13:58.200 Sometimes they tell them, we're just going to go for a ride.

01:14:00.120 This is what I heard.

01:14:00.800 But the majority of times they tell them, look, we're going to offer you free treatment, free

01:14:04.360 housing, free food, just come with us.

01:14:06.480 And then they place them in these houses, but they don't act, they offer them free housing,

01:14:10.400 but they don't actually offer them any treatment.

01:14:12.380 Or if they do, it's shit treatment.

01:14:14.680 And they're charging insurance insane amounts of money for bogus treatment.

01:14:19.660 And a lot of times these are desperate people that really do need that treatment.

01:14:22.720 And instead, you know, they're being lied to and exploited and just horrible, horrible

01:14:28.300 conditions.

01:14:28.880 I mean, the state, I think it was $3 billion or something, don't quote me because I can't

01:14:33.240 remember exactly, but it was billions of dollars that the state of Arizona lost to these rehab

01:14:38.140 scams in the last few years alone.

01:14:40.040 Why would they, why would they, the people stay there?

01:14:42.620 I guess would be my question.

01:14:43.540 Because they had, a lot of times they were actually given drugs.

01:14:46.800 And this is happening after Arizona, we came to California as well, where they're explaining

01:14:51.160 not only Native Americans, but anyone, people from all walks of life.

01:14:55.220 And they're actually going to states like Alaska and Oklahoma, all around the country and bringing

01:14:59.720 people to these rehab scams facilities in California.

01:15:05.020 This is where multiple state sources and news outlets have reported that the cost of fraudulent

01:15:09.940 billing and scams involving rehab and sober living facilities has totaled approximately

01:15:13.880 $2.8 billion for the state of Arizona.

01:15:15.760 I said three, yeah, that's 2.8, yeah.

01:15:18.020 The scams primarily exploited loopholes in Arizona Medicaid system, especially the American

01:15:21.840 Indian Health Program, billing for services that were often never provided or for patients

01:15:26.020 who were not even in the facilities.

01:15:27.940 Were the patients also part of the scam?

01:15:30.700 So a lot of times they're actually given alcohol and drugs to stay there.

01:15:34.060 Or a lot of times these are people who, you know, whose families they've suffered from

01:15:37.980 addiction, the families might not want them, or, you know, they don't have means to

01:15:41.140 go back and they decide to stay because here they have a free house, free meals, and sometimes

01:15:45.380 even free drugs and alcohol.

01:15:46.700 So they stay.

01:15:48.340 But what they don't know or what they, you know, what is happening behind that sometimes

01:15:52.500 they don't know is that they are being, they're sort of a prize.

01:15:55.960 They're being exploited and they're making millions of dollars off the fact of having

01:15:59.840 them in these facilities.

01:16:01.060 And this is happening again in California as well.

01:16:03.640 Did you find out who are the solicitors of this?

01:16:06.120 Is solicitors the right word?

01:16:07.300 Yeah, or the owners of these clinics.

01:16:08.560 Yeah, who is the proprietors of this?

01:16:10.100 Who are the people?

01:16:10.780 We actually interviewed, I mean, in Arizona when they figured out that the state started

01:16:15.780 cracking down on these rehab facilities, they closed hundreds and hundreds of these clinics

01:16:20.400 that they realized were pure Medicaid scams.

01:16:23.480 And a few of them were still operating.

01:16:26.040 One, which was sort of the bad one that we kept on hearing about, was still operating.

01:16:30.060 So we showed up at a Ramada Inn, like a decommissioned Ramada Inn.

01:16:33.260 Oh yeah, been there.

01:16:34.460 Yeah, decommissioned.

01:16:35.760 And where hundreds of people were being held, or not held, but they were housed.

01:16:40.160 And we were told that that place, the Arizona, the government, Department of Health of Arizona

01:16:45.180 had told them, had sent them a cease and desist.

01:16:48.060 And I told them they should not, they could not operate because they were running a scam,

01:16:53.740 a Medicaid scam.

01:16:55.020 And meanwhile, a few months later, we show up and we're outside with our cameras in hiding

01:17:00.120 in our own vans.

01:17:01.340 And we see van, white van after white van in the front with people being taken into the

01:17:06.420 vans and then being driven to this treatment center, where then, that afternoon, I was

01:17:11.240 able to talk to somebody who went into the treatment center.

01:17:13.640 I saw that a bunch of people were leaving the motel and I just went up to one, started

01:17:17.480 talking to him.

01:17:18.120 And he said, yeah, I mean, it was hundreds of people inside this sort of classroom and

01:17:22.160 no one is actually getting treatment.

01:17:24.140 But they're charging, you know, sometimes up to like $10,000 a person for treatment that

01:17:29.680 they're not receiving and they desperately need.

01:17:31.840 And that $10,000 goes straight into the pockets of these owners.

01:17:36.660 CEO of Tempe Rehab absolutely denies allegations of Medi-Cal fraud, right?

01:17:40.760 So this is a place that these are...

01:17:42.560 This is the one that was running the facility from that decommissioned.

01:17:46.560 These are accusations.

01:17:47.960 I want to let you know that's allegedly.

01:17:49.480 We finally caught up with Newfoundland Hope's owner to see what he had to say while at the

01:17:52.920 Arizona Office of Administrative Hearings.

01:17:54.400 We interviewed him, Dennis Artiles.

01:17:56.380 And he denied that his facility was operating the day that we saw all those vans full of

01:18:03.040 people taking people.

01:18:03.840 We had recorded evidence of this and he denied it.

01:18:07.060 Okay.

01:18:07.400 So we denied that it was operating.

01:18:09.420 That it was operating.

01:18:10.460 You're saying you have evidence that it was operating.

01:18:12.320 That's right.

01:18:12.900 I mean, we saw it.

01:18:13.720 We filmed it.

01:18:14.500 Yeah.

01:18:15.060 That's an amazing...

01:18:16.960 Dennis Artiles?

01:18:17.900 Yeah.

01:18:18.360 He's Latino or no?

01:18:21.240 Is Latino?

01:18:22.880 Maybe.

01:18:23.240 Maybe.

01:18:24.400 I can't remember exactly.

01:18:26.920 I know that we spoke to his sister-in-law who was working.

01:18:30.120 She was the one responsible for the billing in his company.

01:18:33.480 And she basically became a whistleblower and told us everything.

01:18:36.800 How he was double billing for people, how he was billing for people that weren't even

01:18:40.540 there.

01:18:40.980 So he's getting that.

01:18:41.740 He was making $850 million or his company facility, $850 million a month.

01:18:47.640 She showed us the billing.

01:18:49.280 That's disgusting.

01:18:50.360 Show him another picture of him.

01:18:51.520 You can't...

01:18:51.720 It's the only photo of him you can get?

01:18:53.160 Yeah, he's quite...

01:18:53.920 He doesn't like the limelight.

01:18:55.440 Of course he doesn't.

01:18:56.460 And that's why I want to make sure we get a good one of him.

01:18:59.020 Because the problem with it is a lot of criminals, they don't ever get shown.

01:19:02.500 And so people don't know who they are.

01:19:05.540 We have a guy who allegedly stole a bunch of money from us a few years ago.

01:19:08.760 What was that guy's name?

01:19:10.320 Colin Thompson.

01:19:11.240 Colin Thompson.

01:19:11.980 I'm going to put a picture of him up right now just to remind everybody that he's never...

01:19:16.660 What did he do?

01:19:18.260 He got paid from advertisers and never paid our podcast and others.

01:19:24.080 Oh, no.

01:19:24.700 There he is right there.

01:19:25.480 Whoa.

01:19:26.240 Well, missing, defrauded, that I know of, of me and my friends, was up to like $4 million.

01:19:30.580 No way.

01:19:31.520 What is he doing right now?

01:19:32.460 Do you know?

01:19:33.040 I'm not sure, but I'm glad that I don't have to be involved with him anymore.

01:19:37.600 Did you know him personally?

01:19:39.280 Yeah.

01:19:39.720 I thought I did.

01:19:41.100 I thought I did, but he just...

01:19:42.600 Wow.

01:19:43.300 He was, according to me, and this is just allegedly, the guy was a complete thief, piece of shit.

01:19:48.180 Wow.

01:19:48.540 But I just heard...

01:19:49.840 I'm not saying I heard...

01:19:51.100 The only reason I know that is because I said it.

01:19:53.260 Mm-hmm.

01:19:53.980 I'm not saying anybody else has ever said that.

01:19:55.940 Mm-hmm.

01:19:56.360 Wow.

01:19:56.880 Hiding his picture from the internet.

01:19:58.180 So you know he must have himself scrubbed off the internet.

01:20:00.940 Just zoom in on his face a little bit.

01:20:02.100 I just want to get a gander at him, and then we'll move on.

01:20:03.540 There's a video, too.

01:20:04.520 There is?

01:20:04.780 Of him being interviewed, yep.

01:20:06.060 Yeah.

01:20:06.160 That's the scary thing about the world, and I think one of the tough things is, who do

01:20:10.040 you feel like should come...

01:20:11.020 Like, we find so many dark circles and, like, pools of existence, right?

01:20:16.520 And because it's weird, as a human, you start to think, okay, well, I'm part of a neighborhood,

01:20:21.600 my neighborhood helper, a family, right?

01:20:23.840 Mm-hmm.

01:20:24.320 Or a government, right?

01:20:25.620 Or a country.

01:20:26.300 You think these things...

01:20:27.780 What have you surmised over time?

01:20:30.260 How...

01:20:30.980 What's going to come to our rescue?

01:20:33.180 Do we need faith?

01:20:34.880 Do we need teamwork?

01:20:37.220 Like, do you...

01:20:38.000 Is it all different for everything?

01:20:39.640 What do you think?

01:20:41.100 I think we need a government that works, which is...

01:20:44.920 All these people are doing, they're exploiting broken systems.

01:20:47.920 So we...

01:20:48.700 For this story, we interviewed the investigator, the fraud investigator for the Department of

01:20:53.740 Health, California's Department of Health.

01:20:55.240 And he was saying how there are thousands of these rehab clinics in California, and he

01:21:00.240 estimated that about 10% of them are fraudulent.

01:21:02.840 Wow.

01:21:03.240 And so my question, that made me angry.

01:21:05.140 I mean, I'm angry for these guys who exploit this system and who are basically, you know,

01:21:10.040 exploiting the most vulnerable people out there.

01:21:13.080 But I'm mostly angry for our government.

01:21:15.640 You know, these are the people that are responsible to make sure that those people aren't victimized

01:21:19.560 again and who are making sure that these people are getting the treatment that they need.

01:21:24.600 And that is just not happening.

01:21:26.160 So I mean, I told him, like, I'm angry at them, but I'm mainly angry at not you personally,

01:21:31.000 the fraud investigator, but at the government and the department that you work for.

01:21:35.480 And why isn't that more hasn't been done to prevent this from happening?

01:21:39.040 So I think it's the systems.

01:21:41.200 And what did he say?

01:21:42.480 He says he understands that.

01:21:43.740 Right.

01:21:43.960 And he wishes they had more resources.

01:21:47.020 Nowadays, you can, and he told me, like, you are found with a kilo of cocaine, you go

01:21:52.800 to prison.

01:21:53.440 You are found making millions of dollars on the back of vulnerable people, telling them

01:21:58.700 or telling the government, telling the insurance company that you're providing treatment they

01:22:02.520 are not providing.

01:22:03.380 You don't do a day in jail.

01:22:05.600 And so they're just, they're just doing, you know, exploiting a broken system is what I

01:22:09.860 keep saying.

01:22:10.800 I know.

01:22:11.520 And that's what I think is the biggest realization, I think, especially in the past year or two,

01:22:15.260 is that none of it doesn't feel like our government's here to help us anymore.

01:22:18.960 And that gets kind of scary, because then it almost feels like it's up to us.

01:22:22.460 But then it also feels kind of inspiring, because the truth is that it's always kind of been

01:22:26.200 up to us, you know?

01:22:28.420 Yeah.

01:22:29.260 So, but at least we still hopefully have ourselves to count on, you know?

01:22:32.420 Yeah.

01:22:33.240 Yeah.

01:22:34.120 I'm curious about, kind of pivoting for a second, but curious about like, who will, what

01:22:38.080 type of people will be on your podcast?

01:22:39.760 That'd be so fascinating.

01:22:40.840 I, mainly I want people who have some sort of understanding or have experienced the life

01:22:48.580 of crime, which is not necessarily you, but I think you offer other interesting knowledge.

01:22:55.640 I mean, and you've, you've talked a lot about your past addiction.

01:22:59.980 I've been involved in illegal drug use.

01:23:01.760 Um, I've been involved in like S, uh, sex, getting, hiring prostitutes or paying stripper,

01:23:11.120 that type of stuff.

01:23:11.920 I don't know if that's, I mean, everybody wanted to do it, uh, or everybody was having

01:23:18.520 a good time, I think.

01:23:19.560 Um, yes, everybody's having a good time, but I'm trying to think of what other crime I've

01:23:23.900 done.

01:23:24.340 I mean, I hit a guy with a vehicle once.

01:23:26.360 He's fine.

01:23:28.160 He's fine.

01:23:28.720 It wasn't on purpose.

01:23:29.480 It was on purpose.

01:23:30.160 No, no, no, no.

01:23:31.180 Yeah.

01:23:31.460 So it was accidental non-homicide or whatever it's called.

01:23:34.440 I'll give you, I'll give you.

01:23:35.620 He wasn't that great before I hit him.

01:23:36.720 I'll be honest with you.

01:23:37.800 And he was stoned.

01:23:38.860 It was after a concert and he just, but he's fine.

01:23:41.040 He's doing great.

01:23:41.760 Still text.

01:23:42.880 Seems good.

01:23:43.780 Good.

01:23:44.380 Good.

01:23:46.020 Hope you're doing good, Henry.

01:23:47.400 I, uh, anyway, let's keep it going here.

01:23:50.720 What were you going to say?

01:23:51.300 But, but, but we'll give, I'll give you a, a truth, um, test after, and you can tell me

01:23:56.140 all the illegal things you've done and I'll say if you're, you can call my podcast or not.

01:23:59.860 I think that's all of them.

01:24:00.660 That's pretty good.

01:24:01.880 Um, as in not a lot.

01:24:03.520 Um, I, I, I think we'll have a lot of people who are still, you know, because I've reported

01:24:07.740 on this for so many years, I have a Rolodex of really interesting,

01:24:11.000 interesting contacts.

01:24:12.120 Yeah.

01:24:12.320 I think a lot of the people that will come on the podcast will still be wearing a mask

01:24:15.380 so that they can talk freely about what they do.

01:24:17.960 But for me, it's another avenue, um, in another format to get people into this, you know, again,

01:24:23.800 the hidden third of the world that no one knows much about.

01:24:26.880 Yeah.

01:24:27.320 That's the idea.

01:24:28.000 Ooh, it's cool.

01:24:28.940 Well, especially since so much of the, I mean, that black and gray market, you said that's

01:24:32.600 22% of American GDP.

01:24:35.200 That's the, that's just the black market.

01:24:37.380 And I think, well, you know, what the, the, the gray market is where it gets more, but

01:24:42.980 I can't, it wasn't just American GDP.

01:24:44.660 I know that drugs, drugs alone in America alone is $150 billion a year.

01:24:50.080 And that's just, just drugs.

01:24:52.540 And is that include, does people sell like dealers on the streets or just when you say

01:24:56.040 the black market, is that, is that like a website or the, is that like the dark web?

01:24:59.920 No, no, no, no.

01:25:00.400 It's just the, by black market, I mean, it's a market.

01:25:02.660 So it's the market for illegal drugs in the United States.

01:25:05.040 Can you open that up, Nick?

01:25:06.320 Thank you.

01:25:07.200 Yeah.

01:25:07.360 That's the one.

01:25:08.260 Yeah.

01:25:08.420 Estimates commonly suggested the black market counts around 22 to 23% of global GDP and the

01:25:13.340 gray market income is about 8% of the global market.

01:25:15.480 And look at 10 trillion.

01:25:16.980 The total global market is estimated with total black market S only rivaled by the GDP of the

01:25:22.000 United States.

01:25:22.640 Wow.

01:25:23.060 10 trillion.

01:25:24.360 The total black market is estimated for 10 trillion, make one of the world's largest

01:25:28.600 economic forces.

01:25:29.920 Wow.

01:25:30.440 Yeah.

01:25:30.760 It's, it's crazy.

01:25:31.960 And you, we have whole organizations, channels devoted to analyzing every up and down of

01:25:38.040 the legal economy.

01:25:38.860 Yet there is nothing out there.

01:25:40.820 If you do, you know, even do searches, there's like no one, we are one of the only outlets

01:25:46.040 out there that is actually, you know, gaining access to these worlds, investigating, showing

01:25:50.160 people, you know, peek behind the curtain of how they operate.

01:25:53.740 And yeah.

01:25:54.560 So I, that's where the idea of the podcast came.

01:25:56.900 I have all these contacts and.

01:25:59.020 Yeah.

01:25:59.420 Well, it's just fascinating to think.

01:26:00.740 Say if you look out into the world, say you're standing on a mountain, looking down at a,

01:26:04.600 at the world.

01:26:05.900 If you think that 20% of it is a black market, that's unbelievable.

01:26:11.280 Because it starts to make you think, well, this, oh, is there a baby in that baby carriage?

01:26:15.980 What's going on here?

01:26:17.080 Who's moving that?

01:26:18.080 Is that what's really in that truck that's going down the street?

01:26:20.860 Yeah.

01:26:21.440 And do you think those are fear numbers?

01:26:23.100 Do you think that that's real?

01:26:24.340 Oh, that's real.

01:26:25.160 Oh, I, I think that was probably underestimates it.

01:26:27.760 Actually.

01:26:28.120 I mean, I think absolutely that's real.

01:26:30.180 I mean, I've seen it all around.

01:26:31.460 I mean, like I said, it's, it's your neighbor.

01:26:34.000 It's happening down the street.

01:26:35.900 So many of the work and the filming that we do actually happens in the places that you

01:26:40.160 least expect in broad daylight in like, you know, it's not that the dark tunnels, it's

01:26:46.060 like in open lit warehouses and, you know, the neighbor's house in the backyard.

01:26:51.360 We, we, one of the stories we did for another season was ghost guns.

01:26:54.480 Do you know about ghost guns?

01:26:55.680 Ghost?

01:26:56.240 Ghost guns.

01:26:57.140 So it's readily.

01:26:57.880 I thought you said ghost guns.

01:26:58.920 Ghost guns.

01:26:59.460 Which is a crazy term.

01:27:00.500 I thought it was like, um, I thought it was British people that are like, you know, spiritual

01:27:04.160 British or whatever.

01:27:05.620 Anyway, sorry.

01:27:06.380 And sorry to say that word.

01:27:07.320 But I thought that I was like, what is she saying?

01:27:09.060 Ghost guns?

01:27:09.820 By the way, when I moved to the US, I, I spent some time in UK and I didn't, I, they use the

01:27:15.580 word cunts a lot, but they don't, it's, it's a whole new level in the US.

01:27:19.460 Yeah, but they use it all the time.

01:27:20.800 Yeah, they use it all the time.

01:27:21.960 So when I first moved here, one of the things that I used to say is that the rule number

01:27:25.580 one, which I learned in the UK by an English journalist who was my boss at the time.

01:27:30.320 And he taught me a lesson in journalism, which is rule number one in journalism is you don't

01:27:34.260 work with cunts.

01:27:35.100 Yeah.

01:27:35.280 And so I went around telling people this all the time and not realizing that people were

01:27:39.340 like shocked.

01:27:41.580 All the lesbians are like, whoa, hold on.

01:27:45.580 And here I am repeating it.

01:27:47.140 But, um, Oh, I remember I was in London and the guy's like, it was some guy with his kids.

01:27:50.620 He's like, yeah, he's in my two cunts right here.

01:27:52.600 And I'm like, no, this is, what are we talking?

01:27:54.540 This is fucking, somebody needs to do an expose on this family.

01:27:58.640 Um, okay.

01:28:01.520 What were we just talking about?

01:28:02.660 Oh, we are going back.

01:28:03.780 Oh, so the podcast.

01:28:04.620 So that's what it's going to be is a lot of that.

01:28:06.160 Well, especially since it's such a big part of the world.

01:28:07.960 I think it is fascinating.

01:28:09.220 I think it is fascinating to see also who's gotten busted for things when really those

01:28:14.340 things were out of necessity.

01:28:15.260 And though they were crimes, they were probably like more like white, like, yeah, like, you

01:28:20.160 know, nonviolent crimes, you know?

01:28:21.900 And what is that like?

01:28:23.280 Right.

01:28:23.720 And the choices people had to make.

01:28:25.280 That's all pretty fascinating.

01:28:26.600 Oh, good.

01:28:27.320 I'm happy you think that.

01:28:29.100 Um, she just brought ghost guns.

01:28:31.600 Oh, yeah.

01:28:31.820 Oh, ghost guns.

01:28:32.340 Oh, yeah.

01:28:32.640 Yeah.

01:28:33.080 Ghost guns.

01:28:33.660 That's what you talked about.

01:28:34.480 Real fast.

01:28:34.940 I'll just explain.

01:28:35.660 So ghost guns are readily available or, you know, firearms that you can assemble with

01:28:42.860 over-the-counter components or 3D printed parts or all of them together.

01:28:46.840 They don't have a serialized number.

01:28:48.500 They don't have a serial number, which is the ID of any gun.

01:28:51.560 And sometimes they have fake serial numbers.

01:28:53.840 In our cartels, USA, we interviewed a guy who basically goes around the country selling

01:28:58.040 guns to the cartel and to, you know, gangs and whatnot.

01:29:01.680 And he makes his guns himself, that they're ghost guns, and he actually prints fake serial

01:29:07.320 numbers on the guns to make them look more legit.

01:29:09.560 So if you're stopped, you have a license to own a gun, you have a gun, you show a serial

01:29:13.860 number.

01:29:14.400 At first glance, that's totally legal.

01:29:17.060 But if you investigate further and you actually put the number of the serial gun in the system,

01:29:21.580 you realize that actually that is a ghost gun and it's not legal.

01:29:25.600 So somebody's just making them.

01:29:26.720 So somebody's making them and they're making them one of the other places I filmed.

01:29:30.940 I'm making it seem like LA is the center of everything.

01:29:33.960 It really isn't.

01:29:34.700 This is happening all around LA, all around the country.

01:29:37.320 But we actually filmed in a guy's backyard in LA where these guys had an operation.

01:29:42.620 They were making ghost guns.

01:29:43.720 They were assembling them with 3D printed parts and parts that they bought online.

01:29:48.320 They were assembling these AR-15s and these pistols.

01:29:52.160 And then we saw, we were there when a buyer came and the guy comes and we had told him

01:29:57.800 that we were filming and he decided he was okay with wearing a mask and being filmed making

01:30:02.020 that purchase.

01:30:02.900 And he's a gang member and he comes in and he buys a gun and then he gets mad at our

01:30:07.580 cameraman for some reason because he thinks our cameraman is smirking.

01:30:10.980 He's like filming like this, you know, making a face and he thinks he's smirking.

01:30:14.220 Oh yeah, like that.

01:30:14.880 You have to do that.

01:30:15.720 And he starts being like, what the fuck?

01:30:17.340 Are you smiling?

01:30:18.000 Are you fucking making fun of me and threatening him?

01:30:20.520 And he had just purchased this gun and things turned really dangerous, really fast and sketchy.

01:30:26.320 And then we found out the day after that he went that day and he shot a woman with that

01:30:32.020 same gun that he had just purchased in that backyard.

01:30:35.260 So this to say that it's everywhere.

01:30:38.940 It's like that black market, these illegal markets, whether it's guns or drugs or scams

01:30:45.040 or whatnot, they're all around us.

01:30:47.180 Yeah.

01:30:47.600 Well, especially when you have like people 3D printing guns.

01:30:49.840 When people are like, it's like Legos of guns now.

01:30:52.000 It's like, oh, look, I got this cool new Lego kit.

01:30:55.000 I'm building an AR or whatever.

01:30:57.340 It's like, what is happening?

01:30:58.420 Yeah.

01:30:58.720 What is happening?

01:30:59.640 Yeah.

01:31:01.180 It's craziness.

01:31:03.700 You have one part I want to ask before you leave about militias in this new season.

01:31:07.860 And I would like to be part of a militia one day.

01:31:11.020 So I want to say that out loud.

01:31:13.420 And and I think because I believe I'm I'm like the revolution guy.

01:31:17.360 I want there to be a revolution.

01:31:18.640 I want to be like on a horse, you know, charge.

01:31:22.400 You know, I want to be like on a horseback or even a pony.

01:31:24.600 I'll get on a pony.

01:31:25.300 It'll be fucking weird.

01:31:26.280 And people are like, dude, hurry the fuck up.

01:31:28.320 I'm like, dude, it's this fucking small horse.

01:31:30.520 And but I do want to be part of the revolution.

01:31:33.320 Right.

01:31:33.760 I want to at least try and charge the hill before we all get gunned down by Palantir.

01:31:39.360 Allegedly.

01:31:40.500 Allegedly.

01:31:40.880 You have to go back in time a little bit.

01:31:43.560 Right.

01:31:44.040 But I'm not living in the right time.

01:31:45.300 I don't know.

01:31:45.820 Actually, it might be.

01:31:46.720 Yes.

01:31:46.940 That's what I'm saying.

01:31:47.440 So what do you find out about militias?

01:31:49.100 Are they good or bad?

01:31:49.900 We don't go into a story thinking about whether they're good or bad.

01:31:54.320 However, I would say that there has been a growth of militias in the United States that

01:31:59.700 it can be dangerous that we are at a time in which we're more divided and torn apart than

01:32:05.700 ever.

01:32:06.540 We are seeing militias grow on both sides of the spectrum.

01:32:09.600 So not only right wing militias, but left wing militias, too.

01:32:12.700 And they're both in answer to the other side.

01:32:15.380 Right.

01:32:15.580 So we filmed with a group called Patriots for America who are operating on the border.

01:32:20.620 And basically what they are seeing is an invasion of immigrants into America.

01:32:25.140 And they decided they were going to take matters into their own hands.

01:32:27.440 They train.

01:32:28.080 They use combat gear.

01:32:29.920 They use, you know, night vision, like top of the line.

01:32:32.940 This is it.

01:32:33.800 Top of the line combat gear.

01:32:36.520 And they go out there patrolling the border.

01:32:39.180 Yep.

01:32:39.340 We are a diverse community of patriots that love our country.

01:32:41.520 OK.

01:32:42.140 Yeah.

01:32:42.400 So what they say they're doing is they're just patrolling, although they have been accused

01:32:47.720 of actually detaining one of the migrants.

01:32:51.000 They I asked them that they say they don't talk to the migrants ever.

01:32:54.660 They just patrol.

01:32:55.740 And they're sort of a what do you call it?

01:32:58.140 A deterring, deterring, deterring, deterring force.

01:33:01.440 Yes.

01:33:01.820 To prevent migrants from coming.

01:33:04.440 What is interesting is that they're also operating.

01:33:07.100 We saw it.

01:33:07.600 They told us that they have support of a lot of sheriff's departments in the area.

01:33:11.540 And they're also helping Border Patrol.

01:33:14.120 We saw we were there the day we filmed.

01:33:16.000 We filmed them calling Border Patrol because they had seen some migrants crossing.

01:33:20.400 We didn't see the migrants, but they did.

01:33:22.320 And and they called Border Patrol and the Border Patrol came and they hitched a ride with Border

01:33:26.460 Patrol.

01:33:26.880 We filmed behind as they were going to show where the migrants were crossing into the

01:33:30.380 United States.

01:33:31.120 They sound awesome to me.

01:33:32.360 OK.

01:33:32.840 To you, they do part.

01:33:33.860 It causes all sorts of trouble.

01:33:35.180 OK.

01:33:35.340 So actually, you well-regulated militia, which is, in fact, in our Constitution, is allowed.

01:33:43.320 What is not allowed is unregulated militias acting and pretending as if you are law enforcement.

01:33:50.980 OK.

01:33:51.280 Dressing up, training combat, training for combats.

01:33:55.740 All that is actually not legal.

01:33:57.660 And what we decided is, you know, Sam Hall, who's the leader of this militia, we spent a

01:34:03.560 night with him and seeing his work.

01:34:05.160 And, you know, I'm not saying that what they're trying to accomplish, you know, they believe

01:34:10.360 the country is being invaded.

01:34:11.640 They decided that they wanted to do.

01:34:13.360 I'm a strong believer our government is broken, particularly when it comes to immigration

01:34:18.280 policy.

01:34:18.980 But I'm a strong believer in holding our country accountable.

01:34:21.840 It's very much part of the work that I do instead of arming myself and training for war

01:34:25.720 and going down there.

01:34:26.440 Yeah, I agree with that.

01:34:27.680 To scare girls, little girls and kids and women.

01:34:30.940 I agree with that.

01:34:31.280 I think that is horrible.

01:34:32.480 Having filmed and spent time with some of these migrants who are crossing the border, who are

01:34:37.620 victims many times of extortion, of rape, you know, little kids who are scared to

01:34:43.120 death, and then they come across these heavily armed, uniformed guys that they think are

01:34:48.060 border patrol, that are a deterring factor, and therefore probably, you know, whatever

01:34:53.780 they do, even if they don't talk, it's scary, right?

01:34:56.120 And so I don't personally think that's the way to go.

01:35:00.660 Right.

01:35:00.880 I think you vote.

01:35:02.540 I think you go to the ballot, you get involved politically, and if you really want to change,

01:35:06.160 you try to change it that way.

01:35:07.500 Yeah.

01:35:07.760 Has it worked?

01:35:08.540 No.

01:35:09.040 But is that the solution?

01:35:10.340 It's not.

01:35:10.940 Right.

01:35:11.180 I agree.

01:35:11.580 It's not.

01:35:11.900 I think there is part of this, right?

01:35:13.520 I agree.

01:35:14.000 It's like somebody that's coming over here that's looking for a better life that wants

01:35:18.000 something different.

01:35:19.300 I think the border system, they left it open and broken on purpose, I think, to create

01:35:25.100 a lot, almost because then it inspires people who believe in America.

01:35:29.140 Maybe these people's parents died protecting their country, right?

01:35:33.000 And now they're thinking, well, they're having people come across the border, and a lot of

01:35:37.700 them weren't even Latinos.

01:35:39.380 A lot of them were bad actors.

01:35:42.340 A lot of them were people that came here with ill intent, right?

01:35:46.480 I think only 40% were Latinos that came across the border during this great migration that's

01:35:52.360 happened during the Biden administration, right?

01:35:54.560 Yeah.

01:35:55.480 And then also you're like, yeah, it's like-

01:35:58.480 It doesn't mean that they're bad people.

01:35:59.620 No, not at all.

01:36:00.500 Not being Latinos.

01:36:00.580 It doesn't.

01:36:01.500 But at all.

01:36:02.920 I think it's really tough, though, if you're like, if you were a person who, maybe your

01:36:08.980 dad served in the military, and then you start to think, our government doesn't care about

01:36:14.280 us anymore.

01:36:14.800 Or maybe someone who came across the border raped somebody in your town, or did something

01:36:21.540 bad.

01:36:22.480 Now all you care about is protecting your own.

01:36:25.780 So it's like, I can just see how people can start to do this sort of thing, right?

01:36:32.440 Yeah.

01:36:32.500 And I don't know, and I think in the end, to me, it's all our government's fault.

01:36:36.580 I think they want the words.

01:36:38.040 They want the videos of the bull.

01:36:39.700 They want all the fucking fighting so they can keep us arguing about this shit.

01:36:44.620 They can get votes.

01:36:45.400 So they can keep getting votes.

01:36:47.640 Well, we're going to do it this year.

01:36:49.000 They've never done it.

01:36:50.160 They've never figured it out, you know?

01:36:52.600 I think immigration-

01:36:53.760 Anyway, not to get animated.

01:36:54.840 No, I get very animated about this topic.

01:36:56.180 It's heartbreaking.

01:36:56.980 It's fucked up.

01:36:57.720 And they're the ones letting us all battle this.

01:37:01.540 There's a new movie called Eddington, and it's really cool.

01:37:04.180 It's like this sheriff in this town, and he, during the COVID, during COVID, and he has

01:37:09.500 to, and BLM and everything, he has to deal with all this stuff, and he's the sheriff.

01:37:13.100 So he's like the authority figure, and it's watching him lose authority over himself as

01:37:18.000 it all falls apart.

01:37:19.720 Anyway.

01:37:20.400 I get very animated.

01:37:21.640 I mean, particularly with what's happening, I don't tend to become political or to talk

01:37:25.660 politics.

01:37:27.200 Yeah, me either, kind of.

01:37:27.920 It feels like it's just a joint thing.

01:37:29.280 Do you feel like it is, or what do you think?

01:37:30.640 I do.

01:37:31.140 I am not happy, obviously.

01:37:33.180 I'm incredibly just saddened by what's happening in our city right now.

01:37:38.400 I, having spent many years-

01:37:40.320 In Los Angeles, you mean?

01:37:41.220 Yes.

01:37:41.600 Sorry, in Los Angeles, my city, sorry.

01:37:44.320 Having spent many years reporting on immigration, are there criminals who come across?

01:37:48.300 Absolutely.

01:37:48.900 Are there people carrying drugs?

01:37:50.280 Absolutely.

01:37:51.400 Are the vast majority of people coming because they are under, you know, there's violence

01:37:56.560 in their hometowns.

01:37:57.880 They're in desperate situations.

01:37:59.340 Nobody would be making that very, you know, very few people.

01:38:02.500 I've done that journey, parts of that journey, you know, whether it's the death train or

01:38:06.160 the Darien Gap.

01:38:07.680 I've, you know, I've been on the border right at the beginning of the Darien Gap, which is

01:38:11.140 the jungle that, you know, a lot of people die trying to make it.

01:38:14.180 And I've seen what it takes and I've spoken to these people and a lot of them are mothers

01:38:18.880 and nothing moves a mother more than trying to provide a better, you know, life for their

01:38:25.000 kids.

01:38:25.140 For their children.

01:38:25.700 If their children are endangered, if they know that their kids can go out on the streets

01:38:30.460 and be co-opted or killed by gangs and if they're not killed, if they're not joining

01:38:34.080 the gangs, I would do anything.

01:38:35.480 Exactly.

01:38:36.220 I have a child myself and I would do anything.

01:38:38.760 And a lot of the stories that I hear again and again, they're not lies.

01:38:42.700 They're real stories of human beings that are living under horrible situations are trying

01:38:47.700 to do everything for a better life for themselves and their kids.

01:38:49.440 So I think when we start going out on the streets of L.A. in these raids and, you know,

01:38:55.760 I know personally people have been affected by this, who refuse, you know, people have lived

01:38:59.820 there for decades and are not, are afraid to leave their house.

01:39:03.300 Yes, they weren't born in the United States.

01:39:05.080 Some of them came here when they were still kids.

01:39:07.220 Some of them came when they were adults, but have spent the last 20, 30 years living, paying

01:39:11.340 taxes, you know, working very hard many hours a day and have done nothing wrong.

01:39:17.680 And being treated the way they're treated, being handcuffed, windows smashed in cars to

01:39:23.100 remove this mother with the kid watching.

01:39:25.300 These are traumatizing events.

01:39:26.800 Whatever happens to that adult person, these are, this is traumatizing for herself, for the

01:39:31.680 kids that are watching, it's, you know, taking away the, the father of these military members.

01:39:36.760 These are horrible.

01:39:37.900 It does.

01:39:38.260 It's, it's beneath us.

01:39:39.460 It's just beneath us.

01:39:40.300 I think one of the lessons that I've been taught as, uh, when I was growing up is you

01:39:45.720 should be judged by the way you treat the people, uh, that have less power than you do and

01:39:50.600 not by the way you treat those above you.

01:39:53.300 Right.

01:39:53.640 Yep.

01:39:53.900 And I think we can put that directly onto, that's a great statement.

01:39:57.380 You should be judged, judged by the people who have less power than you do.

01:40:01.040 And that's how you treat them.

01:40:02.720 How you treat them.

01:40:03.440 Yeah.

01:40:03.680 And that's our government.

01:40:05.100 Yeah.

01:40:05.360 To me, I, I don't think it's a conspiracy theory.

01:40:08.420 I believe that they knew they wanted all this to, they want, cause they want this constant

01:40:14.960 battle.

01:40:15.840 They want to be able to have something to kick ball back and forth.

01:40:19.520 We'll do it.

01:40:20.020 They'll fix it.

01:40:20.600 It's their fault.

01:40:21.380 They, cause if they fix it, then they can't blame it on the other person.

01:40:24.760 Exactly.

01:40:25.340 And that's the problem I think with a lot of things in this country.

01:40:27.680 And I agree.

01:40:28.580 It's like, it's heartbreaking to see, um, families separated like that.

01:40:33.380 And it makes you question like, well, why do I get to be here?

01:40:36.640 You know, I was just born here, you know?

01:40:39.120 Um, and then you look at the native Americans, he's like, well, fucking they didn't, they

01:40:43.420 got, and then who did they take it from aliens or somebody?

01:40:47.220 I don't know how far back it goes, you know, or mollocks or whatever.

01:40:50.140 But for me, it makes me certainly question, well, what, you know, to say this is mine,

01:40:55.240 you know?

01:40:56.060 Um, but at the same time, you, there has to be like organized bookkeeping of inventory.

01:41:02.580 And I don't mean, I mean, all of us is inventory to, to make it so that everything can make sense.

01:41:07.760 And we could do all that if we want.

01:41:09.680 I believe that they don't want to do it at the top.

01:41:11.540 And I also think that, I think that we're about to enter a surveillance state, right?

01:41:16.820 I was talking with, um, Sam Altman, the other, the AI guy, and I don't know if he knows or

01:41:22.380 not, but he believes that we'll be under surveillance will be a big part of things in the next few

01:41:27.400 years.

01:41:27.900 That's so scary.

01:41:28.540 But I believe why a lot of this is happening now, and it's painful to see it happen, um,

01:41:34.880 is because it's all going to be under surveillance soon.

01:41:37.660 So you couldn't even be someone who's here that's undocumented, right?

01:41:41.440 They have to figure out all the paperwork now.

01:41:43.620 Like they have to figure out what's in the shelves of our, what's on the human shelves

01:41:47.920 of our country.

01:41:48.860 So I believe we're headed there quick.

01:41:50.760 And so that's why I think some of this is all happening now, because in two years, if

01:41:56.060 you even walked out of your house, if you even showed up in a parking lot, you were here

01:41:59.580 like undocumented, right?

01:42:01.800 Um, you, or you're overstaying a visa.

01:42:04.360 If you showed up in a parking lot, there will be like, it is in London.

01:42:07.060 And they will have like cameras and it will, you will know pretty quickly this person isn't,

01:42:11.620 you know?

01:42:11.980 So I think that that's where we're headed.

01:42:13.240 And that's why that's happening.

01:42:14.280 Right.

01:42:14.920 And it is heartbreaking though.

01:42:16.120 I think it's a political tool.

01:42:17.380 I do too.

01:42:18.140 And that's the fucking sickest thing.

01:42:19.720 It's like we all humans were down here having this to have like, you know, be scared for

01:42:26.140 our neighbors, scared for ourselves.

01:42:27.840 And those people are probably, they, you know, they're getting on horseback.

01:42:31.840 What the fuck are they?

01:42:32.600 You know, but they're, they're, you know, they've sold a bill of goods that this is their, you

01:42:36.920 know, it's like, yeah, it's crazy.

01:42:40.340 And you start to wonder who's watching all this.

01:42:42.620 Are we all just being live stream somewhere?

01:42:44.860 Yeah.

01:42:45.560 You know, I did a story once about the flat earthers and of course, crazy movement.

01:42:50.360 Obviously I don't believe in any of it, but one of their core beliefs, again, I do not

01:42:54.440 believe it's not true.

01:42:56.040 The earth is not flat, but one of their core beliefs is that is that we are being, it's

01:43:00.920 like the Truman show.

01:43:01.680 We're being watched and there is somebody kind of watching.

01:43:03.840 Well, it does feel like it sometimes though, when you start to spin out a little bit.

01:43:08.180 Yeah.

01:43:08.340 It's not, let's, let's say it again, flat earth, the earth is not flat.

01:43:12.180 So they don't think there's any credence for me bringing it up, but no, I don't look, but

01:43:16.340 nobody's accusing me of that.

01:43:17.600 It just feels, it feels like we're all being basically being, we're pawns in the system,

01:43:21.740 right?

01:43:21.940 It does start to feel like that.

01:43:22.980 Yeah.

01:43:23.240 And not in a way, not in a conspiracy, in my case, I don't think of it as a conspiracy.

01:43:28.320 I think it's like, they have the power as a president to fix certain things.

01:43:33.760 And the reason why certain things are not being fixed is because it benefits them not

01:43:39.640 to fix them.

01:43:40.740 You know, I talk about this all the time.

01:43:42.440 When 9-11 happened, 3,000 people died on 9-11.

01:43:45.960 We reorganized the government.

01:43:47.600 We spent trillions of dollars trying to make us safer.

01:43:51.380 One million people have died with the drug war or with the, because of the opiate crisis

01:43:55.640 in the last 25 years, one million people, 3,000 people die a week, which is what died

01:44:01.960 in 9-11, 3,000 every week from drug and alcohol.

01:44:05.080 And our government still hasn't figured out a way to create a better solution to prevent

01:44:10.400 this from happening.

01:44:11.320 That makes no sense to me.

01:44:12.820 They don't want to.

01:44:13.760 And yeah, it's not.

01:44:14.680 You have to believe that at a certain point, huh?

01:44:15.920 Yeah, at a certain point, you just think like, what's happening?

01:44:18.300 Like, wake up this, you know, Americans are suffering.

01:44:21.260 And I think in many ways, the suffering, you know, drug addiction, unemployment, poverty,

01:44:27.940 you know, many people, we used to be able to afford a house, be able to get married,

01:44:31.020 things that people aren't allowed or can't make happen.

01:44:34.940 Yeah, one parent used to be able to work.

01:44:36.260 Right.

01:44:36.480 And you have a president who points the finger, presidents and people who point politicians,

01:44:42.280 who point the finger at immigrants as being the cause of all evil.

01:44:45.140 Everything that's bad in your life right now is because of this group of people.

01:44:49.000 Yeah.

01:44:49.460 And it's much easier, right?

01:44:50.580 It's easier to blame one group of people than it is to actually fix the things that

01:44:55.520 are wrong because then you can just say, this is it.

01:44:57.940 Yeah.

01:44:59.040 Yeah, I totally agree with that.

01:45:00.440 I think, I think we're in a spot right now where there's a lot of exposing of like, I

01:45:05.000 think people are seeing the lies.

01:45:06.480 They're seeing, oh, this is not, you don't care anymore.

01:45:09.640 You're not, you guys aren't voting on it.

01:45:11.240 No, it's all a charade.

01:45:12.560 It's all nothing.

01:45:13.420 You guys are all compromised.

01:45:15.840 Yeah.

01:45:16.240 I'm working with this, this Democratic congressman right now.

01:45:20.980 His name is Ro Khanna and he is the congressman for Silicon Valley and we're working on building

01:45:26.060 an app, right?

01:45:26.980 So an app where you could put in all your beliefs into it and you could put in, I don't

01:45:30.900 want this person accepting money from these lobbies or I don't want them associated with

01:45:33.880 this and then you can, you can say, tell me who I should vote for based on these things,

01:45:40.080 right?

01:45:40.400 So then people will be armed when they go.

01:45:43.160 It's like, oh, this is exactly who you should vote for if these are the things you want.

01:45:47.040 So that way it's because they trick you with all this shit, you know?

01:45:50.840 So I don't know.

01:45:51.720 I think that's why when I say militia, I'm like, I don't know what, I'm just glad that

01:45:56.640 militias are at least practicing because there needs to be a revolution.

01:46:00.500 I don't know what it is.

01:46:01.540 I don't think it's some guy riding into the Capitol with a fucking wearing horns or

01:46:06.180 something, but I think it's something and I don't know what it is, you know?

01:46:09.460 Right.

01:46:09.660 In my mind, it's not so much.

01:46:11.620 I mean, we haven't found a better system than democracy, right?

01:46:14.160 What is a revolution going to bring as a different system?

01:46:16.380 Unfortunately, democracy is it.

01:46:17.900 Right.

01:46:18.260 Because also all we would do is go to another democracy.

01:46:20.700 Yeah.

01:46:20.960 Or worse, you know, a system that's not democracy, in which case we're totally fucked.

01:46:26.440 So if democracy is the best system and it is about voting, it's, I think, just about

01:46:30.940 getting more engaged.

01:46:32.600 I kick myself every election that I don't get more engaged and, you know, I'm trying

01:46:37.860 to do work that is raising awareness to issues and sort of shining a light on systems that

01:46:42.700 are broken.

01:46:43.280 But at the same time, I wish I should be doing more.

01:46:46.260 I think all of us should be doing more to make sure that our democracy survives.

01:46:49.940 Yeah.

01:46:50.400 And it's working well.

01:46:50.960 Well, maybe with your new podcast, you can have important interviews with people who are

01:46:56.620 going to make commitments.

01:46:57.920 And then, like, I think we as like, I don't know, we as podcasts, I'll probably go to jail

01:47:02.380 for something, but that we can try our best to try to hold people to what they say, you

01:47:07.020 know?

01:47:07.360 That's all we can do.

01:47:08.200 Yeah.

01:47:09.580 But thank you.

01:47:10.380 Thank you for thinking out loud with me.

01:47:12.160 You know, one of the craziest things was they weren't, people that were coming across

01:47:15.340 the border, they weren't even doing paperwork on them because they wanted them to go back

01:47:20.460 and they wanted there to be this thing, right?

01:47:23.320 They, because that makes the numbers look bigger.

01:47:26.120 It's right.

01:47:26.760 It just, it's all fucking such a charade.

01:47:29.260 It really is.

01:47:30.240 So we just have to think with our hearts and keep shining light where we can and, uh, and

01:47:35.080 keep just trying to do better ourselves.

01:47:36.580 Yeah.

01:47:37.160 Um, I think we've talked about a lot of stuff today.

01:47:39.780 Yes, we have.

01:47:40.520 When's the new podcast going to start?

01:47:41.840 We don't know yet.

01:47:42.840 Sometime in the fall.

01:47:43.860 Cool.

01:47:44.260 That's going to be great.

01:47:44.940 And you're working with Ezra.

01:47:46.060 He's great.

01:47:46.840 Yeah.

01:47:47.360 And those guys, uh, Rooster, are you working with the Rooster?

01:47:50.140 Yeah.

01:47:50.180 Oh, they're great.

01:47:51.200 That's awesome.

01:47:51.740 Yeah.

01:47:51.880 They do our ads and they're really, really super.

01:47:53.880 Yeah.

01:47:54.320 Um, Mariana Venzeller, thank you so much.

01:47:56.860 Is there anything else you wanted to share?

01:47:58.680 I'm great.

01:47:59.280 Thank you.

01:47:59.740 This has been really awesome.

01:48:01.540 Yeah.

01:48:01.660 It's been a lot of fun.

01:48:02.320 It's been easy conversation to have.

01:48:03.660 So, uh, the new season traffic starts.

01:48:06.160 It came out this past weekend on National Geographic.

01:48:09.260 It airs every Saturday at 9 PM.

01:48:11.420 And then all the episodes are available on Hulu right now.

01:48:14.640 So you can watch the episodes from this season, but you can go back and watch some of the episodes

01:48:18.860 we talked about from season, from all previous seasons.

01:48:21.480 Yeah.

01:48:23.080 Oh, fascinating.

01:48:25.600 Being alive is interesting.

01:48:27.120 Yeah, it is.

01:48:27.780 Human beings are fascinating.

01:48:29.620 I know.

01:48:30.420 It's, uh, uh, Mariana Venzeller, thank you so much for coming in.

01:48:34.260 We appreciate your time.

01:48:35.080 Uh, congrats on the Emmys and, uh, we'll make sure to check out the new season.

01:48:38.700 Thank you so much, Theo.

01:48:39.600 It's been awesome.

01:48:40.380 Thank you.

01:48:40.680 Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves.

01:48:46.660 I must be cornerstone.

01:48:51.780 Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind.

01:48:56.600 Well, I found I can feel it in my bones, but it's gonna tell you.

This Past Weekend with Theo Von - August 16, 2025

#603 - Mariana van Zeller

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