This Past Weekend with Theo Von - Amanda Knox

00:00:00.000 You know, after your whole experience through, you know, being incarcerated and accusations and everything, do you, where does, do you have like, who do you, who do you blame the most, do you feel like?

00:00:30.000 I'll sit and tell you my story.

00:00:34.320 Congrats to you guys.

00:00:35.280 It's engaged in the show.

00:00:37.260 Yeah.

00:00:37.900 The wedding date isn't yet, right?

00:00:39.300 Yeah, the wedding date.

00:00:41.180 I saw the meteor, man.

00:00:42.540 It was really cool.

00:00:43.860 Oh, you did?

00:00:44.960 Yeah.

00:00:45.360 Okay, cool.

00:00:45.880 It really inspired me.

00:00:48.600 That was a production that Chris manufactured on a Sunday when I was the most unsuspecting.

00:00:55.880 And like, you could tell I was the most unsuspecting because I was in my pajamas.

00:01:00.280 I was sewing a wizard cloak.

00:01:02.560 Like, I was down on that floor.

00:01:05.280 And to like, hear this like, missile sound like a missile to me that he like, he rigged up our entire house and our entire backyard with, you know, secret speakers and like lights so that when I came down, he like dug a fog machine like underground underneath the meteorite.

00:01:25.000 So that it was smoking.

00:01:25.980 Oh, yeah.

00:01:27.000 And it's great.

00:01:28.100 Like, he had this thing.

00:01:28.980 Really, you should ask Chris about it.

00:01:30.500 But like, he had like manufactured this whole thing for, he was working on it with his brother for a year.

00:01:36.280 Oh, wow.

00:01:36.960 So like, and then just one day he was like, today's the day.

00:01:40.400 And so he made the rounds and like brought champagne to my parents.

00:01:43.920 And then while I was like, he was running errands while I was sewing my cloak.

00:01:48.380 And here we are.

00:01:49.520 Oh, it almost sounds like a Disney.

00:01:51.220 He was running errands while I was sewing my cloak.

00:01:53.240 It sounds like a new, like a, like a deleted scene from Shrek or something, you know, or from like a renaissance fair, maybe.

00:02:01.660 We go to plenty of renaissance fairs.

00:02:03.560 In fact, we even out renaissance fared a renaissance fair once.

00:02:07.680 Really?

00:02:08.140 Yes.

00:02:08.620 And ren fairs.

00:02:09.300 I'm going to throw out the term because people don't know.

00:02:11.480 I've been to a few.

00:02:12.640 I've been caught into some, I want to almost say misdemeanor crimes at a few of them.

00:02:16.860 But people call them ren fairs, right?

00:02:19.040 Yes.

00:02:19.440 Okay, good.

00:02:20.000 I like to use that term when I can.

00:02:21.420 But this is the only time I'm probably going to use that term.

00:02:22.980 The politically correct term.

00:02:24.080 Yeah.

00:02:24.560 Or just kind of a little bit of slang, you know, we were at a renaissance fair.

00:02:27.880 Sure.

00:02:28.360 Yeah.

00:02:28.600 No, his brother, Chris's brother is a professional knight.

00:02:32.880 Like he runs the Seattle Knights where they do jousting and choreographed fight scenes.

00:02:42.120 And they get hired by renfairs to put on shows.

00:02:44.840 So where they're doing the jousting and the fighting and they're using actual swords and

00:02:48.460 actual armor.

00:02:49.620 So whenever we go to a renaissance fair, we get hooked up with their gear.

00:02:54.680 Oh, I see.

00:02:55.580 And we can out, yeah, we can out renaissance.

00:02:57.400 So you have backstage passes at a ren fair.

00:02:58.940 Absolutely.

00:02:59.560 We have 100% like full access ren fair.

00:03:03.440 And this one time we went to.

00:03:06.340 So if so, people are wondering what's going on with Amanda Knox, she has backstage passes

00:03:09.720 at a renaissance fair.

00:03:11.260 Yes.

00:03:11.600 Yeah.

00:03:11.920 I could tell you the goings on.

00:03:13.880 Yeah.

00:03:14.140 And a recent engagement that kind of like puts like it kind of puts a nice charm into your

00:03:18.720 life.

00:03:19.340 Yes.

00:03:19.860 Oh, God.

00:03:21.020 Yeah.

00:03:21.420 This is the stuff that people don't know about me.

00:03:23.500 People think they know a lot of things about me.

00:03:25.160 But really, I'm just a nerd who likes to wear costumes and go to renfairs.

00:03:28.720 Now, renfairs, I feel like renfairs kind of do, are they, is their arch rival kind of

00:03:37.920 like a carnival, like the small town carny folk?

00:03:40.620 I feel like those people probably, I could see them kind of getting into some fisticuffs

00:03:44.360 at night or something, you know?

00:03:46.000 You know, I know there's some crossover.

00:03:49.880 I do know that some performers who come to renaissance fairs do perform at carnivals

00:03:55.240 as well.

00:03:55.660 Like there was this one amazing woman who trained a bunch of rats to like do acrobatics

00:04:01.920 with her.

00:04:02.540 Oh, yeah.

00:04:03.220 Which was great.

00:04:04.460 I sure did her.

00:04:06.520 She was awesome.

00:04:07.460 And she goes to the renfairs and the carnivals.

00:04:10.800 Carnivals, I wish, I don't know, I feel like carnivals just make me feel sick.

00:04:15.860 I don't know.

00:04:16.360 Oh, yeah.

00:04:16.520 It's a little seedier.

00:04:17.280 They get you hopped up on the sugar, then they trick, they shake you up with the machinery.

00:04:20.980 It's kind of an old school.

00:04:22.100 Yeah.

00:04:22.420 Yeah.

00:04:22.620 It's very, it's a lot more adrenaline rush than I think I can handle.

00:04:27.580 I just tend to feel a little nauseated.

00:04:30.280 Yeah.

00:04:31.320 So I don't go to carnivals very often anymore.

00:04:33.220 So renfairs, yeah, I would say, yeah, a renfair is almost like a carnival minus the

00:04:36.300 nausea.

00:04:37.080 Yes.

00:04:37.660 There's more.

00:04:39.100 And more playfulness because you're like, you go, and you're not exactly in character,

00:04:42.880 but you're playing pretend.

00:04:43.940 Like everyone's just kind of playing pretend with each other.

00:04:45.920 And they're getting their hair braided so they can look more renaissance-y.

00:04:48.740 And like the idea is to just sort of like let your inner nerd embrace itself.

00:04:53.820 Yeah.

00:04:54.440 And like, you know, these are some places where like it's the one place that somebody

00:04:58.580 feels at home.

00:04:59.580 Like the, you know, to be nerdy in the world, like, yeah, you can be a cool nerd in this

00:05:04.380 world, but not everyone's a cool nerd.

00:05:06.000 Some people are just straight up nerds.

00:05:07.800 And like when you allow yourself to get into costume and just like, and just nerd out.

00:05:13.280 And it's so sweet and it's so fun.

00:05:15.660 I love it.

00:05:16.780 Yeah.

00:05:17.020 It's kind of like you see people like, yeah, you'll see like, like a fair maid in there.

00:05:21.520 You'll see like a lot of wooden swords.

00:05:24.820 You hear a lot about corset-gasms.

00:05:27.200 Oh yeah.

00:05:27.660 Oh really?

00:05:28.120 Have you heard of a corset-gasm?

00:05:29.020 I've seen honestly some big tits at a renaissance fair.

00:05:32.120 Yes.

00:05:32.540 Like if you come out, that's the place to let them on display.

00:05:37.180 If you like sunburnt cleavage, dude, then a renaissance fair is it.

00:05:40.860 That is the place.

00:05:41.580 And Minnesota has a lot of big ones too.

00:05:43.340 I know that.

00:05:43.780 Yeah.

00:05:44.000 I've heard about them.

00:05:44.900 I've never actually been to those before, but I think me and Chris are going to be going

00:05:48.600 with his brother and wife and their best friend.

00:05:51.640 They all do Ren Faire stuff together.

00:05:53.340 I think we're going to be going down to this big one in Texas in November.

00:05:56.920 Wow.

00:05:57.160 And I'm really excited.

00:05:57.960 Apparently it is like 10 times as big as any of them that are here in Washington State.

00:06:03.660 Dang.

00:06:04.240 Yeah.

00:06:04.500 So it's just like a world to, an alternate reality to explore while wearing dope costumes.

00:06:09.380 Yeah.

00:06:09.960 Yeah.

00:06:10.460 And peaceful, more peaceful times, I think, in a way, maybe.

00:06:13.320 Oh, I don't know.

00:06:13.700 They had dragons back then.

00:06:16.460 You know.

00:06:17.000 They wish they had dragons.

00:06:18.560 They really do.

00:06:19.420 Yeah.

00:06:19.700 I guess they wish they had dragons.

00:06:21.060 That's it.

00:06:21.660 Yeah.

00:06:22.000 I mean, it depends on the, it depends on the fair because it's still a fair.

00:06:24.900 Like, you know, there's still going to be some fair food.

00:06:27.960 I don't know.

00:06:28.560 I find it really exciting.

00:06:29.980 I think that I love watching his brother do his thing.

00:06:33.400 Yeah.

00:06:33.740 Like doing, like they are swinging real swords at each other.

00:06:37.120 And occasionally, like he'll get like a sharp elbow to the face and he'll have like his

00:06:42.960 face cut open.

00:06:43.740 And it's like, this is real.

00:06:45.180 Yeah.

00:06:45.480 The only difference is no one's actually trying to kill each other.

00:06:48.360 Right.

00:06:48.540 They look like they are.

00:06:49.600 And occasionally someone gets hurt.

00:06:51.260 Yeah.

00:06:52.080 Yeah.

00:06:52.240 Ren Faire's, you know, I went when I was, actually I went a couple of years ago.

00:06:55.340 I'll be honest, you know, I'm trying to lie about it.

00:06:57.380 But I went a few years ago and, and it was, what was it like?

00:07:03.360 Oh, it started raining.

00:07:04.400 So suddenly like behind the scene, like everything kind of became like the, the worlds kind of

00:07:10.740 got mixed because everybody's trying to stay dry.

00:07:13.040 So you had a lot of people that weren't like in, you know, in like Ren garb, like trying

00:07:19.560 to get into the Ren holes and stuff.

00:07:21.420 Totally.

00:07:21.740 Stuff got a little, um, shelter became, uh, it was a commodity.

00:07:26.720 Well, yeah.

00:07:27.380 Especially because a lot of these fairs are, um, end up being sort of put out into these

00:07:32.080 fields.

00:07:32.860 Yeah.

00:07:33.160 That was it.

00:07:33.900 And like all the water just accumulates in these fields.

00:07:36.040 And like the Ren Faire that I go to in Washington state very often, like, you know, it's there

00:07:41.120 and then like, it has to disappear at the end of the Ren Faire.

00:07:43.700 And then that, that field gets recycled into something else.

00:07:47.200 And I've used it before to do a mud run, which is to do like an obstacle, like mud course.

00:07:53.260 So that's like the week after Ren Faire, it's mud run.

00:07:55.140 Yeah.

00:07:55.180 It's mud run.

00:07:56.040 Yeah.

00:07:56.660 People don't realize like, that's crazy.

00:07:58.440 I wonder what the field thinks.

00:07:59.560 I wonder what the field's like, oh, who's on my back this week, you know?

00:08:02.100 Yeah, totally.

00:08:02.440 Oh, thankfully it's the Ren Faire.

00:08:03.760 They're pretty calm.

00:08:04.620 Yeah.

00:08:04.800 And then it's these mud freaks.

00:08:06.000 And then the mud freaks are like chugging beer and like getting really dirty.

00:08:10.120 And that's also a great use of random grass field.

00:08:14.760 Yeah.

00:08:15.380 Yeah.

00:08:15.780 That's interesting.

00:08:16.480 Yeah.

00:08:16.760 The one that I went to was way out in the middle of nowhere.

00:08:19.180 And we went, when I was in school, I was in like a special class.

00:08:22.200 And so they would take us out there.

00:08:23.920 And one time they're like, okay, you have to dress up.

00:08:25.900 And I was, I didn't understand the concept of Renaissance Fairs.

00:08:29.480 And I was Peter Pan.

00:08:31.640 That works.

00:08:32.400 So it worked, but it was, I don't think.

00:08:35.420 You were in the kind of right time period in terms of fairy tale.

00:08:38.120 Like that totally, they have, they have like Robin Hood themed Ren Fairs.

00:08:44.000 That's who I think I meant to be was Robin Hood.

00:08:45.760 And I just messed up, you know?

00:08:48.220 And my whole costume, we didn't sew it.

00:08:50.040 It was all just tight.

00:08:50.960 It was like a bunch of stuff.

00:08:52.040 And then I wrapped myself in fishing twine, right?

00:08:55.060 To hold it all together.

00:08:56.280 So it was way bizarre.

00:08:57.780 I'm having trouble visualizing this, but I, do you have pictures?

00:09:01.480 I think there's some drawings or sketches of it back in the day.

00:09:04.760 But it was definitely kind of a seedy look.

00:09:06.680 So they were pretty much the same thing, Robin Hood and Peter Pan.

00:09:09.480 Yeah, totally.

00:09:10.540 You're fine.

00:09:11.200 As long as you have the tunic, the green tunic, you fit in.

00:09:14.440 I think I got offended though when people called me Robin Hood.

00:09:17.480 That was my problem.

00:09:18.440 Oh, you were like, no, this is Peter.

00:09:20.200 Yeah, that's why I had a, I fly.

00:09:21.140 Yeah, that's why I had a, so really it was just the way I interacted.

00:09:24.340 I will never grow up.

00:09:25.020 Yeah, it was the way I interacted with the world there.

00:09:26.840 You know, I kind of brought, I think, a bad attitude as well.

00:09:28.940 It could have been the twine too.

00:09:30.080 It was 30 pound test and it was really, really tight.

00:09:32.300 You know, there are people walking around in chain mail and like legit armor out there

00:09:36.860 though.

00:09:37.200 Like 90 pounds of crap in 90 degree weather.

00:09:40.600 Oh yeah.

00:09:40.900 I saw a guy drinking WD-40 out there one day and I was like, oh man, he needs it.

00:09:45.480 Or mead, just so much mead.

00:09:47.840 Oh yeah.

00:09:48.060 And that's beer, right?

00:09:49.180 Well, it's very sugary.

00:09:52.260 I think it's more like wine, but like extremely sugary.

00:09:58.080 It's like honey.

00:09:59.220 It's like, it tends to have like a honey flavor.

00:10:01.240 Like a port almost or something?

00:10:02.620 Yeah.

00:10:03.300 Yeah.

00:10:04.300 And people get shit faced on that.

00:10:06.860 Wow.

00:10:08.580 Dang.

00:10:10.040 It's a lot of fun.

00:10:11.440 Cooked out on some meat, huh?

00:10:12.920 And some lean too.

00:10:13.960 I think it's gotten a little bit urban in some of these Ren Fairs.

00:10:16.360 It's starting to, things are getting strange.

00:10:19.640 Thanks for coming in.

00:10:20.600 Thank you for having me.

00:10:22.040 Actually, I admit that I had not heard your podcast before, but what convinced me to come

00:10:29.200 on is one of my best friends said that yours is the best podcast ever and she has the biggest

00:10:36.060 crush on you.

00:10:36.840 Oh, really?

00:10:37.260 So in case you want to like meet someone who's also amazing, she moved over all the way to

00:10:43.600 Italy to like be supportive of me and visit me in prison.

00:10:47.520 Wow.

00:10:47.880 She's an incredible person and she has a big fat crush on you.

00:10:51.480 Oh, dang.

00:10:52.900 And she's ex-Mormon, which I find that ex-Mormons are the best people ever.

00:10:57.060 Yeah.

00:10:57.480 They're pretty, yeah.

00:10:58.320 I've heard some things about them.

00:10:59.540 I mean, they're, yeah.

00:11:00.620 Mormons are really, really unique.

00:11:02.140 When I, like I, one time I was walking through the Mormon place in Utah, like Park City, the

00:11:07.540 big.

00:11:08.160 Yeah.

00:11:08.380 Yeah, the temple.

00:11:09.000 I mean, you're not allowed to go in the temple.

00:11:10.660 Yeah.

00:11:10.820 But the tabernacle.

00:11:12.040 It's beautiful.

00:11:12.300 They had like, they had like 19 weddings going on.

00:11:15.600 Like I was in like four ceremonies just on accident.

00:11:17.720 I was just like, just like accidentally just would just walk in different paths.

00:11:21.880 Wow.

00:11:22.060 You got lucky.

00:11:22.740 I've, I've been there before multiple times and I've never seen a wedding there.

00:11:27.260 I've only, I've only wished, like I've walked into that tabernacle and been like, God, I wish

00:11:31.480 someone was singing here.

00:11:32.580 Cause they do.

00:11:33.340 They're incredible singers.

00:11:35.040 They're incredible musicians and they have a really great sense of community.

00:11:38.280 They're really supportive of each other.

00:11:40.420 And you know, then there's all the crazy dogma, but like.

00:11:43.900 Yeah.

00:11:44.100 There's a lot of rough dogma with everything.

00:11:45.800 I feel like.

00:11:46.440 I feel like these days you hear more about the dogma so much of everything than you do

00:11:50.740 about like the good stuff.

00:11:53.020 Like the values.

00:11:53.460 The humanity.

00:11:53.980 Yes.

00:11:54.700 No, that's my big issue is like I'm constantly coming face to face with different kinds of dogmas

00:12:00.880 and they don't have to be established dogmas.

00:12:03.280 They can be like the whole vilification narrative is something that I find that's like, well,

00:12:07.340 we've decided that somebody is a monster and now what?

00:12:11.040 And for me, you know, I feel like my job now in the world, it having been mischaracterized

00:12:18.180 as a, as a monster, but also having like lived next to people who have been imprisoned for

00:12:22.500 years for things that they actually did do is be like, well, it's a lot more complicated.

00:12:26.360 People are people.

00:12:27.000 And the reason they do things are not for monstrous reasons.

00:12:30.040 Most of the time, it's usually a human reason and we don't like to, I find that the greater

00:12:36.900 society tends to not want to embrace those human qualities.

00:12:41.160 They want to have a scapegoat.

00:12:42.680 They want to like hold someone up as a symbol and say, this is something that we can hate.

00:12:47.000 Do you think that it's the greater society that, cause I, I find that it appears that

00:12:53.440 way certainly like through the news and through media for sure.

00:12:56.580 But I, person to person, I find that it's not that, do you know, do you know what I'm

00:13:02.400 talking about?

00:13:03.020 Kind of?

00:13:03.320 Sure, sure, sure.

00:13:04.040 Totally.

00:13:04.980 And I'm not disagreeing with you.

00:13:06.260 I'm just saying it's interesting that, yeah, like as a, as a, as a mass, as a, especially

00:13:11.880 like if you like go like through with the news and media, it's like, yes, it's like, let's

00:13:16.080 put a pin in this, this is, you know, we want, yeah, we need like an angel.

00:13:20.080 We need a, a devil.

00:13:21.700 We need, you know, we need figures, you know, to, to, to get people excited and to get them

00:13:26.620 engaged.

00:13:27.180 But then when you go to, um, humans, it seems like there, there is more of a care about the

00:13:33.900 people a lot of times, or there is, there is more empathy than you get through the narrative

00:13:38.520 that's in the news.

00:13:39.740 Yes, I think that on a person to person basis, um, the instinct that another human being is

00:13:45.860 across from you and you're, you automatically empathize with them because they have eyes

00:13:49.560 and they have a nose and they have a mouth and they look like you because they're a human,

00:13:52.340 like that instinct kicks in.

00:13:54.200 But there's another instinct that we all have, which is to stop thinking.

00:13:58.540 And, um, you know, we're like, we're, God, I think it was, um, have you read a lot of,

00:14:05.940 um, Jonathan Haidt?

00:14:07.720 I think you would like him.

00:14:09.060 Um, he talks about like the reasons why people come into conflict with each other,

00:14:13.320 despite the fact that, you know, they're all good people and they're all thinking people

00:14:16.580 and feeling people.

00:14:17.980 And, um, one of the reasons is like, you know, we're, we're like 80% chimp and like 20%

00:14:23.820 B and like the B part of us sort of like latches onto a group and then just agrees with everything

00:14:29.340 in that group and otherizes anyone outside of that group.

00:14:32.660 And so I, I find it interesting.

00:14:34.380 I don't know what, from your experience, like how many people have to come together into a

00:14:38.840 group before they start thinking like a group, as opposed to that, like an individual who

00:14:43.260 sees another human being across from them.

00:14:45.040 Have you noticed that?

00:14:46.000 Like, have you, um, you know, I've been amazed at just like through podcasting and stuff,

00:14:51.960 like the amount of people that are good in the world.

00:14:55.720 That's what I find just by going out and doing comedy shows and having people come out to

00:14:59.980 them, but just good people.

00:15:01.980 Like, um, I've just been amazed.

00:15:04.160 It's really kind of changed a little bit of my perception.

00:15:06.320 Sometimes I think of, of the, of the world, especially like through the news, you know,

00:15:12.180 and like the mainstream media, like, I mean, I feel like that got so spoiled.

00:15:16.880 Um, like it's always bad news.

00:15:18.500 It's always bad.

00:15:19.340 And now it's gotten to the point where I think, but I think most people do not believe it

00:15:23.960 anymore.

00:15:24.980 I think that most people realize that it's bad and they know that they're being, that

00:15:29.240 it's a trick or that it's a, you know, and I hate to say that, you know, your experience

00:15:34.000 was probably a lot of experiences over the past 25 years that were like paramount to probably

00:15:40.080 people realizing that why I, this is, there's no value here of me giving myself to this anymore

00:15:46.340 because they don't even care like what's, what's real.

00:15:50.300 Like I have more empathy than this news does.

00:15:52.860 So at a certain point, I'm not, if I keep taking it in and believing it, then I'm, I'm

00:15:58.540 doing almost a disservice to my, to who I am as a, as a person.

00:16:01.900 Yeah.

00:16:02.640 And I think that's a fair point.

00:16:05.340 Um, I also think though, that we're sort of teaching ourselves how to think less thoroughly,

00:16:13.240 um, just by like the way that we're consuming a lot of information.

00:16:16.840 A lot of, a lot of information is coming our way and like flashing across our eyes and

00:16:22.140 like triggering an emotional response.

00:16:24.360 And then that emotional response happens and then it's gone and we stopped thinking about

00:16:27.800 it.

00:16:28.040 And I think we are, I don't know, I, I get, I get both sides of it and just, you know,

00:16:33.000 even from personal experience, getting both sides of it, where on the one hand we have,

00:16:37.760 we have such a hunger for like depth and human connection.

00:16:40.680 And that's why a lot of the media is responding to that and trying to create these difficult,

00:16:46.600 um, you know, gray space narratives.

00:16:49.160 And on the other hand, we have also an outrage culture and both of those are real.

00:16:54.280 Yeah.

00:16:54.800 And, um, and like the, the, the flippancy with which the, the casualness with which we

00:17:01.220 decide, oh, I hate that person or, oh, that person's worthless or, oh, like it's just,

00:17:06.800 it's so quick.

00:17:07.700 Like, yeah, is it two different us's though almost do you feel like sometimes like there's

00:17:11.380 a me that's, um, that like will react to something like through, through television or through

00:17:18.240 online and, and, and make a choice, you know, pass a judgment.

00:17:21.740 And then there's a me that's, and that me almost doesn't even seem real.

00:17:26.140 I feel like that's the same me that would engage with like, um, like flirting with women

00:17:29.960 online and that sort of stuff sometimes where it's like, it feels almost like a video game

00:17:35.120 of not real life.

00:17:37.520 Um, uh, I wish I knew that what that was like.

00:17:40.800 I'm, I'm not, I mean, it's, it's fascinating.

00:17:43.300 Like, uh, I obviously can't date online.

00:17:46.540 So, um, I haven't had that experience, but I've definitely, I mean, lots of people our

00:17:52.420 age are, are doing online dating and are experiencing each other in a very different way.

00:17:57.700 Like, it's not like you just run across them and you see them in context in a, in a, in

00:18:01.940 an element interacting with people.

00:18:03.700 What you do is you read their profile and find out what their interests are.

00:18:07.640 And if you have the same interests, maybe that means that you'll get along, but I don't know,

00:18:12.040 you can have completely different interests and actually get along.

00:18:15.420 And that's when it's the real connection.

00:18:18.600 Yeah.

00:18:19.020 I think connection, I think overall, it seems like connection is just a thing that, um, it's

00:18:23.500 almost like, I wonder if it'll be like in a museum at some point.

00:18:26.060 Like, it's funny, I was talking to my niece a couple of months ago and I was talking about

00:18:28.920 imagination and she thought it was an app.

00:18:30.860 She hadn't heard of it.

00:18:31.800 Oh, sweetheart.

00:18:32.940 It broke my heart.

00:18:34.280 And she's very smart and very capable and, but it was just very bizarre to me.

00:18:39.320 Yeah.

00:18:39.640 Imagination.

00:18:40.080 Is there an app for that?

00:18:41.060 Yeah.

00:18:41.360 Can I outsource?

00:18:42.120 She's like, I don't think I had that.

00:18:43.420 She's like, I don't think my mom lets me, I think that's under parental control.

00:18:46.660 She said that she doesn't know if I'm like, no, no, no, it's just inside of you.

00:18:50.720 You know, it's like this thing that.

00:18:52.040 Yeah.

00:18:52.140 Let's do it right now.

00:18:53.060 Let's not tell your mom.

00:18:54.160 It's your own, it's like one of your few apps, you know?

00:18:59.440 Do you have like, you know, after your whole experience through, you know, being incarcerated

00:19:04.880 and accusations and everything, do you, where does, do you have like, who do you, who do

00:19:11.140 you blame the most?

00:19:13.280 Do you feel like?

00:19:14.260 Oh, I think you might be surprised that, you know, as much as like the blame game was happening

00:19:26.660 at me, I don't really think of it in terms of blame.

00:19:33.480 Um, you know, I don't, I, I had a long time to like sit in my cell and wonder why this was

00:19:43.240 happening to me.

00:19:44.680 Um, and you know, that's still a question that bothers me.

00:19:48.700 Like just why me?

00:19:49.800 Why me of all people in the world to have this happen to them?

00:19:53.480 Um, um, why, uh, and I don't have a sufficient answer for that, but I don't think that it's

00:19:59.880 a specific person that I feel the need to blame.

00:20:03.580 I think, um, human beings fail to see each other all the time, every day.

00:20:09.920 And it's not like it's someone's fault.

00:20:13.220 Um, you know, I'm trying to like, one thing that I'm doing right now is I'm trying to reach

00:20:19.080 out to my prosecutor because, you know, the, the easy and automatic response to any of these

00:20:26.380 situations is to be like, fuck that guy.

00:20:28.980 He's, he's a bad dude and he did something bad to me.

00:20:32.020 Right.

00:20:32.380 But I've never found that to be a very satisfactory, um, answer to why it doesn't answer my why

00:20:39.840 question.

00:20:41.000 Uh, yeah.

00:20:41.680 You know, like, yeah, it gives you like kind of a, like a cane a little bit, but it doesn't

00:20:45.500 really give you like a real place to stand kind of.

00:20:48.140 Yeah.

00:20:48.380 And I'm, I don't know if it's just my disposition, but I don't like lashing out does not feel

00:20:55.180 satisfied, like doesn't satisfy me in any way possible.

00:20:58.840 I think I remember like one time wanting to like punch a pillow once and I was just like,

00:21:04.340 oh, and it was like for some stupid thing, like maybe like, uh, traffic or something.

00:21:09.780 And, and, and I was like, oh, that's what everyone's feeling all the time.

00:21:13.060 Wanting to like punch something like now I know what that feels like.

00:21:16.260 Um, so I don't know.

00:21:17.120 I, I, I, was there like a, but I, I guess, I mean also like in a sense of like, was there

00:21:23.780 a group that, or, and not even a specific group or person, but was it more like the,

00:21:31.460 the, the country, was it more the, um, was it more the, uh, the media?

00:21:38.480 What was it?

00:21:39.220 The news?

00:21:39.860 Was it the, the police, um, there that, that was the thing that you're like, they, it seems

00:21:48.340 like they were the ones that kept the ball rolling because it seemed bizarre that you

00:21:55.640 were going through all of this.

00:21:57.780 I think from, you know, I consider myself just kind of an every man.

00:22:01.780 It seemed like, like you didn't seem like somebody that would kill someone to me easily.

00:22:06.600 And even with the, with the information from the case, but you, but you probably displayed

00:22:12.160 behaviors where I was like, oh, if I think, you know, she seems like someone that's a, you

00:22:15.900 know, unique or aloof or whimsical.

00:22:18.900 And I could see that kind of fitting, like obviously a wild story.

00:22:22.060 Um, but was it more the media that kept you that, do you think one of them influenced

00:22:27.180 more the fact that you were, you were stuck there for so long that you had to go through

00:22:30.880 all of this?

00:22:31.560 Do you think?

00:22:32.520 Um, I think that it's like everything.

00:22:35.660 It's a lot more complicated than it would be nice if it were, because it's a combination

00:22:42.320 of factors.

00:22:43.160 It's a combination of the law and like what, what was legally allowed, what the police were

00:22:49.520 legally allowed to do with, uh, do to me, were they illegally allowed to psychologically

00:22:53.080 torture me in an interrogation room?

00:22:55.160 Well, yes and no.

00:22:57.240 Um, were, were they, are they human beings and is their instinct to, um, feel confirmation

00:23:04.220 bias and to only see what they want to see and sort of ignore or disregard things that

00:23:09.480 don't go with their pre, with their prejudice.

00:23:12.500 Like these, these are all factors that came into play and I can't just pinpoint one reason

00:23:18.800 why it happened.

00:23:19.820 You know, it's a lot of reasons.

00:23:22.160 Do you feel like that they, that they started to think that it was sexy that they had not

00:23:26.240 sexy, but that it was, you know, uh, there was, it was.

00:23:31.460 I think sex played a role.

00:23:33.900 Um, but again, not just for one person because like there's the journalist who goes, here's

00:23:39.140 this like, here are two fresh faced young women and, and now it's sex on like girl on

00:23:45.560 girl crime and that's sexy.

00:23:46.960 And then on the other hand, there's a, you know, uh, some police officers or prosecutors

00:23:52.940 who are looking at a crime scene and looking at a body and seeing that there were signs

00:23:57.780 of sexual violence.

00:23:58.680 And so getting this like sexuality in their head and coming from a different culture and

00:24:03.220 a different time than I was and, and, and having prejudgments about my own sexuality

00:24:08.980 or the way that my sexuality even appeared to them.

00:24:12.160 Cause they didn't even really know what kind of sexual person I was.

00:24:15.620 They just kind of assumed things based on the fact that I was an American girl.

00:24:19.800 Um, and so there's a lot of that that goes into play.

00:24:23.140 Do you think that they start, that the, that the police there started to kind of get off on

00:24:27.820 the attention that they were getting at a certain point and played into their own,

00:24:31.540 like almost like they would keep up things, keep up the narrative and not, and, you know,

00:24:38.860 not veer off and not even want to veer off because it gave them, it almost romanticized

00:24:43.940 their position.

00:24:44.820 That's what I'm trying to say.

00:24:45.760 Um, I think it probably had more to do with them wanting to protect or, um, you know, they,

00:24:55.500 they wanted to maintain that they were professionals with integrity and when their, when their humanity

00:25:03.500 came into play, when their prejudices came into play, when they made mistakes, um, like

00:25:09.760 many of us admitting that they had made that mistake, like they, they can say like for,

00:25:16.020 there's this cognitive dissonance where they can say, I'm a professional and I'm acting with

00:25:20.140 integrity.

00:25:20.600 And, and in a certain moment for some people, like they get on the defensive and they say

00:25:25.000 that, therefore I cannot make a mistake.

00:25:27.580 Like, how can you point to me and say like, I'm a professional with an integrity.

00:25:31.720 How can you tell me that I made a mistake?

00:25:34.180 And it's like, well, I'm sorry, you, you made a mistake.

00:25:37.460 Right.

00:25:37.600 It's okay.

00:25:38.200 You made one.

00:25:38.880 Yeah.

00:25:39.580 But like it became an issue.

00:25:41.640 And then it became, became the blame game.

00:25:43.560 Like very quickly it became, well, whose fault is like, this is a fucked up situation.

00:25:47.840 Whose fault it is like, whose fault is it?

00:25:50.020 And under what light can we cast, like how fucked up the situation is?

00:25:53.300 Because we start with this death of a young woman and there, there's no escaping that this

00:26:00.140 is a tragedy.

00:26:00.980 And this is, this is the story of young women throughout history being targeted and abused

00:26:08.540 and, and murdered because they're really taken, they've taken it some hours over the

00:26:13.200 decades.

00:26:13.480 They have.

00:26:14.220 And, and like, and so we start with that and then it becomes a tragedy on top of a tragedy

00:26:23.380 on top of a tragedy and, and how the focus gets turned from one thing to another.

00:26:28.700 It being like someone that's obviously like, like, you know, is dramatic and likes, or like

00:26:33.180 I could see you being in like drama club in school and that's what I mean.

00:26:35.800 Totally was in drama club.

00:26:36.640 Okay, so was I, so I've been in some, uh, really bad place.

00:26:40.780 One time I was in, uh, I think, um, I was in Sherlock Holmes.

00:26:44.620 Oh, who were you?

00:26:45.600 Uh, I was, uh, Watson, right?

00:26:48.180 Great role.

00:26:49.080 But I changed it to Holmes.

00:26:50.720 I got real, like Latino the night of the performance and I didn't tell anybody.

00:26:54.580 Wait, what?

00:26:55.180 And it came out and I was like, what's happening Holmes?

00:26:57.740 And, uh, so it put a whole spin, like my own selfish spin on everything and, and it

00:27:02.880 ruined everybody else's experience of the night.

00:27:05.480 But for me, it was, uh, you know, I just kind of took things.

00:27:08.880 You were a play for yourself.

00:27:10.400 Okay.

00:27:10.860 It really was.

00:27:11.660 Even though it was a lot of other people's, uh, you know, cause so many people have worked

00:27:15.220 so hard for this night and then, you know, it's just like me with a bad accent kind

00:27:19.400 of, uh, kind of can, uh, cannibalized it.

00:27:22.480 Um, shoot, what was I going to ask you?

00:27:25.560 It was something that was good too.

00:27:26.680 She seems like theater.

00:27:28.180 Oh yeah.

00:27:28.780 So at a certain point, did it become a, were you able to laugh at the fact that it became

00:27:32.140 like a comedy of errors or did you never even get to that place of, of like, or were you

00:27:37.540 always in a place of suffering whenever you were, um, locked up?

00:27:41.860 So, um, I mean, it's again, a complicated answer to that question.

00:27:48.300 Um, I, when I was in prison, um, I, I realized that like my body sort of reset itself to a

00:27:58.620 new emotional default setting, um, where like I, you know, I was the type of person who used

00:28:04.820 to wake up in the morning and hear the birds sing and be like, yeah, another day, sweet.

00:28:10.120 And I changed so that I woke up and I would wake up and say another day, another day, um,

00:28:22.660 we're going to get through this day and I'm not going to think about tomorrow.

00:28:25.360 Cause if I have to think about getting through tomorrow, it's, it's not, I can't get through

00:28:29.680 today.

00:28:29.960 So I need to get through today.

00:28:31.220 It's almost like a recovery program.

00:28:32.640 It's almost like somebody that's in like 12 step recovery.

00:28:34.560 You know, they say one day at a time, that sort of thing.

00:28:36.500 Yeah.

00:28:36.720 Except you don't know if you're ever going to recover.

00:28:38.280 Yeah.

00:28:39.840 Cause like I had no idea when I was ever going to get out, if I was ever going to get out.

00:28:45.360 Did it, did it, did it feel like it paused your ability to be like a family member?

00:28:51.220 And, um.

00:28:51.940 That was the hardest part.

00:28:53.300 Um, actually I had, um, a moment this past weekend.

00:28:57.180 Um, I'm, I'm the oldest of four sisters and, um, my youngest sister is 11 years younger

00:29:03.980 than me and she just turned 21 this week.

00:29:08.440 Um, and a couple of things to know about that.

00:29:11.200 It means that when I left, she was under 10 years old.

00:29:15.460 She was like nine years old when I left.

00:29:17.520 So she was.

00:29:18.020 Oh, such a fun age too.

00:29:18.880 Uh, yeah.

00:29:19.340 She was a, she was becoming a person and, um, and I was gone by the time I got back.

00:29:25.720 She was a young woman with her badonkadonk and her nails and, you know, like she was

00:29:29.080 a young woman.

00:29:29.780 Oh yeah.

00:29:30.240 These thoughts they call them.

00:29:31.420 I, and I, I wasn't there.

00:29:35.600 I didn't get to be there for her and be her big sister as she was moving from child to

00:29:41.980 young woman.

00:29:42.580 Um, and it hit me really hard over the weekend when like my dad was doing her 21 run.

00:29:48.940 Cause like my dad got like a van and he had an itinerary.

00:29:52.180 We were going to go to like the pool hall and then we're going to do karaoke and all the

00:29:55.740 things you can do now that she's legal.

00:29:56.900 Yeah, exactly.

00:29:57.820 And so like he got us all, piled us all in a van and we all went out and I, a lot of

00:30:04.380 things are going on in my mind, but I was thinking, okay, I didn't get a 21 run.

00:30:09.760 I turned 21 in prison and that's fine.

00:30:13.520 That's okay.

00:30:13.900 Cause I'm here for my sister.

00:30:15.780 But then the reminder that like this time had passed and she was a young woman, like

00:30:20.320 she was a legit young woman now who could go drinking with me now.

00:30:23.040 Like I missed, I missed her and she missed me and I wasn't there.

00:30:31.520 Um, and, um, how did you keep in touch?

00:30:34.700 How were you able to maintain a sense of sisterhood while you were gone?

00:30:38.980 Uh, so I was writing letters every day.

00:30:41.520 That was, um, how I, so what I would do for you, that's pretty empowering.

00:30:46.160 I bet just to have that one thing that you can do.

00:30:48.580 It's the one thing.

00:30:49.460 Yeah.

00:30:49.940 And that and sit-ups, but like, yeah.

00:30:53.040 I got really good at sit-ups.

00:30:54.460 Um, but you know, I was allowed to have like a, a 10 pictures with me in the cell.

00:31:00.540 And what I would do is I would have, I would, when I was getting ready to do a letter, I

00:31:05.520 would take the picture of the person that I was going to be writing to and just stare

00:31:09.480 at it.

00:31:10.300 And, and like, it got to the point where it's like a crazy person.

00:31:13.400 I would like touch their face and like try to feel like I was physically present with

00:31:18.760 them.

00:31:19.080 Um, and, and then I would write a letter and I would just like talk to the picture of

00:31:23.160 them.

00:31:24.000 Um, and you know, my little, my littlest sisters were a little too young to know how to interact

00:31:30.340 that way.

00:31:30.900 They, and writing is not their medium.

00:31:32.860 Um, I'm constantly rewriting their essays for them, but like, yeah, I'm from the past.

00:31:38.540 And then like, but my, the oldest of my younger sisters, she had to become the big sister all

00:31:45.060 of a sudden.

00:31:45.540 And she would write to me asking for advice for how to be the big sister.

00:31:50.560 And that was huge.

00:31:52.560 Um, that meant a lot to me.

00:31:55.220 I think even more than she knows the fact that she just asked.

00:31:58.120 Yeah.

00:31:58.540 Um, cause I wasn't there.

00:32:00.100 Yeah.

00:32:00.220 She takes her on the role kind of.

00:32:01.900 Yeah.

00:32:02.200 And she, and she recognized with me being gone, that there were things about being the big

00:32:07.760 sister that she didn't know that like that I had been doing the whole time without her

00:32:12.000 realizing it.

00:32:13.060 Wow.

00:32:13.480 And so, um, so she grew to have like an appreciation for me that, um, she didn't have before.

00:32:21.840 Um, and, but then, you know, but then coming home, what I found is, you know, I thought

00:32:28.040 that I was going to go back to being the person I was, and I was going to have the life that

00:32:32.700 I had been stolen from for a while.

00:32:34.960 I was just going to kind of go back to doing that.

00:32:37.000 And that's not what happened.

00:32:38.100 So like, she's still kind of the big sister and I'm kind of the weird alien person.

00:32:44.660 Do you feel like a different, do you still feel like a sister?

00:32:47.500 Do you feel like a stepmom?

00:32:49.120 Do you feel like an aunt?

00:32:49.860 I'm just wondering if there's a little bit of not reality change.

00:32:53.220 Cause obviously these are your sisters and this is your family.

00:32:55.740 Yes.

00:32:56.220 And, uh, but do you feel, are you still able to, did being in, um, in prison and I say

00:33:04.060 locked up, I think it's pretty dope.

00:33:05.300 But, um, but does it make you feel like, did you lose, can you still feel their love as

00:33:12.000 much as before?

00:33:12.820 Do you think it affected your ability to feel like other people's?

00:33:16.120 So what it did is, um, before all of this happened, I was very, very, very close to my

00:33:22.000 sisters and, and in, in the kind, and there's a closeness that you get by being physically

00:33:27.500 present with someone.

00:33:28.500 Like you just know their, you're, you know, their little, you know, that they chew with

00:33:32.780 their mouth open sometimes when they're looking at their phones and you know, like, you know,

00:33:36.400 those little ticks that people have, the way that they pace themselves through life that

00:33:40.900 you don't get when you are at a distance.

00:33:42.860 Um, and what I've found is I haven't yet been able to, uh, reclaim that kind of, um, knowledge

00:33:53.460 of them.

00:33:54.400 Um, and nor they of me because we, we've, we spent developmental periods of our life having

00:34:01.960 very, very different life experiences.

00:34:04.320 And so we don't, we have so much in common cause we've gone through a trauma that affected

00:34:10.920 us all, but we all experienced it very differently.

00:34:15.900 And I think that.

00:34:17.540 That's so fascinating to think of how each person experienced it.

00:34:20.500 Yeah.

00:34:20.880 So there's, there's a, I mean, that's the whole tragedy of these issues is it's not just

00:34:25.240 the person at ground zero.

00:34:26.540 It's the whole world around them that suddenly like gets sucked into this black hole of suffering

00:34:34.080 You know, it seems like, and it seems like the part that really affects or sounds like

00:34:38.560 one of the things that affect you the most was that you not even that people weren't there

00:34:42.340 for you, that you couldn't be there for other people.

00:34:44.200 That was the hardest one.

00:34:45.680 Wow.

00:34:46.240 Yeah.

00:34:47.180 Yeah.

00:34:47.580 And, and you can't like, you can't replicate time lost with someone.

00:34:53.860 Yeah.

00:34:54.120 You can't like, I can't go back and be there the first time my little sister, you know,

00:35:00.220 snuck out and got drunk and needed someone to pick her up at a party.

00:35:04.080 Yeah.

00:35:04.400 Like I, I wasn't there.

00:35:06.440 Yeah.

00:35:07.320 Right.

00:35:08.080 That was my other little sister.

00:35:10.240 And do they, they must know how much you care though.

00:35:14.260 I feel like you seem like one of those people that it's easy for like, or they would get

00:35:19.460 used to it pretty quick.

00:35:20.760 Chris, you could probably know, huh?

00:35:22.720 They know.

00:35:23.300 Yeah.

00:35:24.160 Yeah.

00:35:24.580 No, they, they do.

00:35:25.640 But do you feel like they, is it part of it that you don't know if you'll ever be able

00:35:29.100 to make it all the way up?

00:35:31.780 If that makes any sense, kind of.

00:35:33.300 Yeah.

00:35:33.720 Sometimes I feel like I love people, but they're never going to know how much I love them.

00:35:37.880 And, and it's hard to really sometimes even show how much you really care about somebody,

00:35:41.780 no matter if you, what you do as a human, you know?

00:35:44.940 Yeah.

00:35:45.340 Sometimes I do worry that, um, the, the way that I communicate love, um, is potentially

00:35:54.140 alien to them.

00:35:56.100 Like, you know, and I'm pretty easy going.

00:35:59.160 Like I'll, I'll go and, and like have them put the makeup on me or do my hair or whatever.

00:36:03.500 Like those are nice ways that you can interact with someone and just by spending time with

00:36:07.360 them doing something that they like.

00:36:08.660 Like my little sister loves makeup.

00:36:10.560 And so I can, I can sit there and be like, do go nuts, like do Picasso on me.

00:36:16.480 Like, it's great.

00:36:17.220 And I can do that.

00:36:18.000 And that's like a great way to connect with her.

00:36:20.140 But I, I worry that they don't know how to do that with me.

00:36:24.640 Oh, I see.

00:36:25.460 Like they don't know.

00:36:26.500 Like they may treat you different.

00:36:27.360 Yeah.

00:36:28.260 Because like, I'm, I, I feel like they too are trying to reckon with the fact that everywhere

00:36:37.680 I go, there's a doppelganger of me in the room, which is the Foxy Noxy, which is the

00:36:44.140 trauma, which is the infamy that, which is that experience.

00:36:48.160 Yeah.

00:36:49.220 Well, well, yeah, but all those things or whatever you want to call it.

00:36:52.680 I mean, I deal with a little bit of it myself.

00:36:54.560 Like even just as, um, you know, as my career has changed in the past year, you know, it's

00:36:58.860 become bigger.

00:37:00.260 You know, it's like, I'm like my person, whoever I am sometimes to people is already there

00:37:05.380 before I've got there, you know, and there's nothing.

00:37:08.460 Sometimes it's like now I used to be able to be myself completely one-on-one and now it's

00:37:13.100 like, I, I find I have to, like, they already have a head start with me in one direction,

00:37:19.020 positively or negatively, or even maybe just sideways.

00:37:22.060 But they have a head start with our interaction before I even get to them.

00:37:27.640 Yeah.

00:37:28.080 And so I'm always either playing from ahead or playing from behind and just trying to make

00:37:32.600 things even most of the time I try and, is what I feel like I'm trying to do.

00:37:36.220 And I feel bad because like a lot of times what it means is you kind of have to have a

00:37:40.420 conversation about like the idea of you or the idea of me that's kind of sitting there

00:37:46.080 between you.

00:37:46.700 And you kind of have to deconstruct that just in order to reach them.

00:37:50.180 Yeah.

00:37:50.680 Um, because otherwise you also don't feel like you're on fair ground and I feel bad for the

00:37:55.060 other person as well.

00:37:55.900 Cause they're like, well, I know you, you don't know me.

00:37:58.200 Who does that make me?

00:37:59.020 Like, who am I?

00:38:00.380 You know, and that sucks.

00:38:02.680 So I don't know.

00:38:03.800 Yeah.

00:38:04.180 Like, oh, sorry.

00:38:05.180 I'm an accused murderer, you know, my bad, right?

00:38:09.080 Sorry to interrupt the episode.

00:38:10.620 I got to tell you about this, that they have a lot of questions when you're thinking about

00:38:14.600 the internet and you are wondering which of my online searches does the government have

00:38:20.580 a right to know about?

00:38:21.940 And I definitely have thought about that before.

00:38:24.820 First of all, can dogs do menthols?

00:38:29.540 That's one of mine.

00:38:32.020 Obviously, you know, you know, uh, Martians and butt stuff.

00:38:39.060 That's another one.

00:38:40.140 And another one is, uh, properties where you could, you know, put a body.

00:38:45.360 The answer, none of the above.

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00:41:45.580 And now, back to our episode.

00:41:48.780 Are there things that you miss?

00:41:51.540 I find like, you know, I was in the hospital for a little bit when I was young, right?

00:41:58.620 A couple weeks and I was sick and I was scared, right?

00:42:01.820 And my family was scared.

00:42:02.800 But when I got out of there, there were still a couple things

00:42:04.760 that like I really missed about it, even though it was like a scary time.

00:42:07.580 Are there small things that you miss about being incarcerated that you didn't miss?

00:42:10.740 But like little things that people wouldn't even think about.

00:42:14.400 I don't mean like, you know, recess or anything if you guys had that.

00:42:18.600 But I mean like, because rarely do you, does someone get taken out of their life for any reason?

00:42:24.000 I mean, unless it's getting abducted by aliens or what happened to you

00:42:27.120 or if somebody falls in like a sinkhole or something.

00:42:29.060 But there's very few opportunities to like kind of, to get pulled.

00:42:33.860 I mean, just in a moment, get taken out of your life on this total side path.

00:42:43.700 The only thing that I can think of is, I wish I had more time to read now.

00:42:53.040 And I had plenty of time to read.

00:42:56.920 But honestly, I would never, I would never ever wish imprisonment on anyone.

00:43:04.460 No, it's, I think Sam Harris asked a really good question in his podcast

00:43:10.640 where he says like, you know, the worst experience of your life,

00:43:15.200 you would never want to go through it again.

00:43:17.900 But is there anything that you're glad,

00:43:21.020 like, is there any part of you that is glad that you went through it?

00:43:25.920 So like, you wouldn't do it again.

00:43:27.660 I would never do that again.

00:43:30.260 I would never wish it upon someone.

00:43:35.600 I think that the experience of being torn from the world

00:43:40.260 and subjected to incredibly dehumanizing treatment in the prison system

00:43:46.340 definitely gave me perspective of the different ways that like human beings suffer

00:43:54.460 that I didn't know, just because I was, you know, I was also 20.

00:43:58.640 I didn't, you know, I didn't know.

00:44:01.360 Yeah.

00:44:01.780 Who's even thinking, who's he, who can even really understand that at a large level?

00:44:05.680 Yeah.

00:44:06.480 So like, I was suddenly plunged into a very real world of human suffering

00:44:13.640 that I, again, would never wish upon anyone in like extreme ways.

00:44:21.240 And, but I do love reading and I don't get to read as much as I would love these days.

00:44:29.640 So that's the, it's literally the like the brightest star that I can offer you right now

00:44:35.180 because prison sucks and like locked up sounds cool, but it's not cool.

00:44:39.960 Yeah.

00:44:40.120 It's really not.

00:44:41.040 And I, I'm sorry to like be a Debbie downer too and like kind of burst the bubble or anything,

00:44:45.260 but it's like, it's, it's really hard to put like a, a, a nice sheen on prison when it's

00:44:52.220 really just a lot of people who are hurting and in pain and being, and, and no one cares

00:44:58.720 because they're supposed to be in pain.

00:45:01.520 Right.

00:45:02.380 And, and, and no one's getting better.

00:45:06.420 Oh yeah.

00:45:07.360 I could see that.

00:45:08.540 I could really, really see that.

00:45:10.180 I'm reading this book right now about, about, I think it's called Connections by Joanne Horry.

00:45:18.940 Is that that book?

00:45:19.620 Remember we tried to get, uh, maybe have, uh, have them come in and it's just talking

00:45:25.040 about like, um, they talk about like a, a, a large woman, a woman that suffers for, with

00:45:31.220 obesity or eating disorders and, and that the treatment for it is all these different diets

00:45:36.920 and stuff like that.

00:45:37.780 And then one time, uh, they talk about whenever they sat down with a woman, she had gotten

00:45:42.760 molested or sexually abused at a certain time when she was young.

00:45:46.700 And that's when she started eating more.

00:45:49.660 So she didn't look, um, attractive to men so that if she didn't look attractive to men,

00:45:56.320 then it would never happen again.

00:45:57.460 Yeah.

00:45:57.560 This book, it's really been, to me, it's been really neat.

00:46:00.660 Um, but it's just amazing how like, uh, the treatments that we have sometimes, um, and I

00:46:07.000 think we're finding this out more now because we're a little bit more concerned with who

00:46:10.820 people are on the inside, hypothetically in some ways.

00:46:16.060 Um, then it used to be probably, you know, 50 years ago when it was just like, oh, you're

00:46:19.580 bad.

00:46:19.860 You go to jail.

00:46:20.560 You know, we hang the keys over here.

00:46:22.000 You know, I think we're still migrating out of that whole kind of old philosophy.

00:46:25.280 Yeah.

00:46:25.720 Um, did you find like after being in there, in these environments, did you find that, did

00:46:32.040 you feel like it was effective?

00:46:33.620 Did you feel like it was, that the system is effective?

00:46:36.520 Uh, what I noticed is that the vast majority of people who were in there, whether they

00:46:44.700 were guilty or not, the vast majority of them were guilty.

00:46:47.800 Um, all of them felt like victims, like they were being abused, like they were being abused

00:46:55.080 by a greater system that, and that is like, you know, the justice system was being a bully

00:47:02.800 towards them.

00:47:03.580 Like they, you know, they're a lot of times impoverished, a lot of times dealing with

00:47:07.700 trauma and mental issues.

00:47:10.080 Um, a lot of times, you know, they, they aren't making great choices, but they're also saying

00:47:14.680 to themselves, well, how many great choices do I have?

00:47:17.320 Like I'm human garbage to you people.

00:47:19.740 And now you like lock me up in this environment to make me suffer even more.

00:47:23.980 Fuck you.

00:47:24.880 Like that's a lot of the.

00:47:26.280 Right.

00:47:26.460 And then it gives them a whole nother chip on their shoulder.

00:47:28.260 Exactly.

00:47:28.580 And then they feel even more justified to like break the rules.

00:47:31.220 Cause they're like, you don't, I was like, you guys like didn't play the cards out neatly.

00:47:37.780 Like it's not fair.

00:47:39.180 It's not fair.

00:47:40.100 Right.

00:47:40.280 And so like they're, they're also victims of the unfairness of the greater structures

00:47:44.620 that led them into the prison environment.

00:47:46.640 And then it's like insult to injury to be in the prison environment.

00:47:50.400 And it's tough when you have so many people and, and it's all a system that's very bureaucratic

00:47:54.980 and stuff.

00:47:55.480 And it's like, how do you, at that point, it's really hard to get one-on-one attention.

00:47:59.640 It's hard to get really what you need.

00:48:01.540 It's almost like a cattle system.

00:48:04.280 It feels like that.

00:48:05.120 Does it?

00:48:05.580 Yeah.

00:48:05.800 Yeah.

00:48:06.020 No, it's, um, what were the, what were like your conditions like?

00:48:08.980 So, um, I've never, I've been only once into a prison here in the U S to visit.

00:48:15.860 I was doing like a yoga behind bars.

00:48:18.620 Um, I was like trying to, um, support this organization called yoga behind bars, which

00:48:23.440 are these women who are going into prisons and trying to give people skills for like,

00:48:27.700 um, dealing with trauma through meditation or through just like body movements.

00:48:32.260 Cause a lot of our trauma is being held in our bodies and we don't have access to them.

00:48:35.840 And so they were trying to give them access to their bodies in order to experience it

00:48:39.700 more positively.

00:48:40.860 Yeah.

00:48:41.020 It's cool.

00:48:41.460 Yeah.

00:48:41.540 I do yoga with Adrian sometimes off of the internet, off of YouTube.

00:48:44.240 Adrian?

00:48:44.940 Yeah.

00:48:45.180 Have you ever seen it?

00:48:46.420 I have.

00:48:47.320 Yeah.

00:48:47.480 Yoga with Adrian?

00:48:48.460 She's just one of the first people that comes up when you do like yoga instructions.

00:48:51.720 Oh, okay.

00:48:52.380 Yeah.

00:48:52.500 It's good.

00:48:53.020 I mean, I like it.

00:48:53.740 It's, there's all different types, but, um, anyway, yeah.

00:48:56.780 So, so this, the, the conditions that, that are compared to the U S and the ones that you

00:49:01.220 had in Italy, what are those?

00:49:02.740 Yeah.

00:49:03.340 So, um, I didn't have to wear a uniform.

00:49:06.440 Um, most of us just wore sweatpants because there were limitations on what you could wear.

00:49:11.020 Um, but mostly we all just lived in sweatpants 24 seven.

00:49:16.320 Um, and the, another difference for me, and I think it again, depends on prison to prison,

00:49:21.940 but I was locked in my cell for most of the day.

00:49:25.340 Um, so you weren't, there weren't like common areas where people were, you know, working out

00:49:31.560 or going to school, um, we didn't have those kinds of facilities.

00:49:36.740 So you were, you were either trapped in your room or you were, you had like your hour of

00:49:43.620 outside time in this like concrete box.

00:49:47.660 Um, and it wasn't nice out there.

00:49:49.160 No, it was a concrete box.

00:49:50.860 Oh, wow.

00:49:51.340 Um, so.

00:49:52.580 With a roof on it or it's open?

00:49:54.000 I did not have a roof.

00:49:54.980 Okay.

00:49:55.320 Thank goodness.

00:49:55.800 So I could see the sun and I could see the sky.

00:49:58.700 Would you, did you find yourself starting to like almost pray to the sun?

00:50:01.400 Like, was there any, like, like, like, did the sun become like this different friend

00:50:05.140 that was out there?

00:50:05.940 I'm just kind of wondering.

00:50:06.840 Dependent on what side of the prison you were on.

00:50:08.560 Oh, really?

00:50:09.080 Um, in the sense that like, um, depending on if you're, you're, you're cell faced east

00:50:13.840 or faced west, the sun could be your best friend if you were in the east because you

00:50:17.920 got really nice morning sunlight.

00:50:19.340 But if you lived in the west side, it became this excruciating torturer because like the sun

00:50:25.120 would come in in the summer and just cook you.

00:50:27.360 Oh, and like, I, I was, it was a very happy day when I was moved on to the east side of

00:50:33.500 the prison.

00:50:33.840 Moving on up.

00:50:34.420 Yeah, moving on up to the east side.

00:50:38.120 Um, were there people that were friendly in there?

00:50:43.540 Yes.

00:50:44.340 Um, and again, everything is complicated.

00:50:47.060 Right.

00:50:47.380 So, um, yeah, I know these questions are kind of base in some way.

00:50:50.740 Like, I'm just trying to like.

00:50:52.940 Yes.

00:50:53.420 So I'm trying to give a scenario, right?

00:50:55.120 Like, so there.

00:50:55.980 Yeah.

00:50:56.340 I'm trying to see how do you, how you stayed human and like with what other humans.

00:51:00.040 Certainly.

00:51:00.960 So there are different kinds of relationships that you can develop in a prison environment,

00:51:05.300 um, that are resembling of friendly or friendship.

00:51:11.480 Um, a lot of times you try to develop some kind of relationship like that with your cellmate

00:51:15.840 because you're trapped in a room with them.

00:51:17.880 Um, and you have to like problem solve and, and find solutions for how to live together when

00:51:23.640 you're two very, very different people who are living on edge emotionally.

00:51:27.980 Wow.

00:51:28.420 Um, and sometimes that works and sometimes that doesn't depending upon a lot of factors.

00:51:33.360 Like, what is your background?

00:51:35.660 Um, what do you, how do you like to spend your time?

00:51:37.680 Do you like, a lot of people inside will want to just watch TV all day and watch soap operas

00:51:44.140 and like play cards.

00:51:46.100 Great way to spend your time.

00:51:47.640 Wasn't the way that I like to spend my time.

00:51:49.740 I spent my time reading.

00:51:51.420 And sometimes.

00:51:51.980 Do they think you were a nerd or anything like that?

00:51:53.740 Well, a lot of them, it was a little worse than that.

00:51:56.260 Some of them felt like I was, um.

00:51:59.260 Better than them?

00:52:00.060 Yeah.

00:52:00.380 Oh.

00:52:00.820 Because a lot of them were illiterate.

00:52:02.280 Yeah.

00:52:02.800 So.

00:52:03.380 Oh yeah, you show a book to some illiterate people, dude.

00:52:05.680 They're going to think you're Thomas Jefferson.

00:52:07.600 Totally.

00:52:08.180 And like you're showing off.

00:52:09.620 And like, I had people who were experiencing mental illness who were very paranoid who like

00:52:14.380 when I was like writing letters or I was journaling thought that I was writing about

00:52:18.960 them and because they couldn't read it, they were just convinced that it was about them.

00:52:25.720 And I had someone like take my journal and just rip it to shreds because she was convinced

00:52:29.980 that I was writing about her.

00:52:33.280 And so like, it's again, it's like so different than the real world because you, you're interacting

00:52:38.960 with people who are living like animals, um, being treated like animals that can just get

00:52:45.540 plucked up out of their cell and, and move and shipped off to another prison at any moment.

00:52:49.920 So like any time, like any relationship that you might establish is also kind of a liability

00:52:54.960 because you could also have that relationship taken away from you at any moment.

00:52:59.960 And so like, you have to be careful about who you have a relationship and why.

00:53:04.620 And usually it's a utilitarian kind of relationship.

00:53:07.060 Like, oh, if I'm, if I don't play cards with this person in my cell, they're going to get

00:53:12.640 mad at me and, and, and they're going to gang up on me.

00:53:16.640 So I'm, it's a, it's good for me to spend an hour of my day playing cards with this person

00:53:21.680 because we're all, keep peace.

00:53:23.520 Yeah.

00:53:24.200 So there's a lot of keeping peace more so than like camaraderie.

00:53:28.860 Right.

00:53:29.060 A lot of just like mitigating what's going on, making sure that, um, was there any, is

00:53:34.960 there any like dating or is there a dating life where there are women that were attracted

00:53:38.260 to you?

00:53:38.620 Did you have to deal with that kind of thing in prison?

00:53:40.100 Um, yes, um, that's definitely a thing.

00:53:43.600 Um, and I would almost think that that would be a luxury and I've never been like homosexual.

00:53:47.600 I don't think anyway.

00:53:48.540 I mean, I got caught up on some drugs one time and I don't know what happened, but this guy

00:53:52.360 had to go to the airport, but it was, um, but, uh, but yeah, I could imagine that things

00:53:57.600 get, you know, um, so if you're wondering, well, I, I'd never hooked up with anyone, but I

00:54:03.920 did have someone, um, you have a like a, but even like I've had friends that I like, but

00:54:09.160 did you, did you almost have somebody that you loved in a way like, because it was like,

00:54:13.240 uh, no, I wasn't so lonely as that.

00:54:16.880 I mean, I was fortunate that I always had, um, a foothold outside of the prison, which

00:54:22.500 was for me always the real world.

00:54:24.840 Like I never was so alone that I felt like prison was my world and it's very easy to

00:54:30.840 get to that place.

00:54:32.480 Um, so I had friends and family who were constantly riding with me and also like love and sex were

00:54:38.740 the last things on my mind at that point.

00:54:40.940 Like I could have continued a relationship with my co-defendant who was my boyfriend before

00:54:46.000 everything came out.

00:54:46.860 But like, as soon as we got into that prison environment and the stakes were so heightened

00:54:50.700 and like every, it seemed like the only thing that mattered was like trying to get the truth

00:54:54.820 out.

00:54:55.220 The last thing that I was thinking about was like love and sex.

00:54:58.720 I felt very alone.

00:55:00.620 Um, did part of this, parts of you die almost a little bit, like, do they disappear a little?

00:55:05.040 I just, cause that's such a vibrant time for us in our lives to be like, uh, just sexual

00:55:10.720 and to be like, um, not curious, but just to be alive.

00:55:15.160 Mm-hmm.

00:55:15.720 Yeah.

00:55:16.440 Um, so what I can say is that prior, so I was in prison for two years before I was convicted

00:55:24.280 and then I was in prison another two years before I was acquitted the first time.

00:55:28.240 And in the two years leading up to my conviction, um, I was entirely asexual and then my conviction

00:55:36.280 happened and I was like, holy shit, I've just been sentenced to 26 years in prison.

00:55:40.660 Um, I guess I have to like re-imagine my life as being an imprisoned life and that's actually

00:55:48.920 when I taught myself how to masturbate.

00:55:50.560 Wow.

00:55:50.840 I didn't know how to masturbate before then and, and-

00:55:53.680 And what was that, 23 probably, 22?

00:55:55.640 I was 22, yeah.

00:55:58.180 Wow.

00:55:58.760 Yeah.

00:55:59.180 So nobody taught you in high school or something?

00:56:00.680 I guess nobody's gonna teach you, but-

00:56:02.060 I was a late bloomer.

00:56:03.020 Oh yeah?

00:56:03.360 Honestly, um, I was a late bloomer.

00:56:06.360 Um, I never really felt comfortable, uh, with my own sexuality.

00:56:13.700 Um, and, and I'd never felt like I was a sexual human being.

00:56:17.600 Like a lot of people comment about like, oh, Foxy Noxy, like you have this look, you're

00:56:22.420 like super hypersexual, but, um, I was-

00:56:25.500 What a dichotomy, I don't know if dichotomy is right or not because I don't know that many

00:56:27.760 of the, all the words that are right, but it's like, what a total opposite then.

00:56:31.460 Yeah.

00:56:31.780 How bizarre, like-

00:56:32.740 Yeah, I was not a, I was not like a sexual person in high school.

00:56:36.460 I, I was a virgin until college and even then I was like, I had to learn what an orgasm

00:56:43.160 was.

00:56:43.440 Like, it wasn't like an obvious thing for me and, um, I didn't have good sexual experiences

00:56:49.740 until like after prison really.

00:56:53.080 I'm sure.

00:56:53.840 Um, yeah.

00:56:54.480 Until Chris.

00:56:55.060 Until I, well, no, no, there was something before that.

00:56:58.020 Oh, sorry, Chris.

00:56:59.440 But, and Chris is, uh, her fiance who's here.

00:57:02.620 He's really picked up the slack.

00:57:03.680 That's what I heard.

00:57:04.460 It's true.

00:57:05.100 We do have a really great sex life.

00:57:06.820 And actually we were, um, on the way over here, my friend Madison, who has the biggest

00:57:10.480 crush on you.

00:57:10.900 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:57:11.640 She, she, she-

00:57:12.920 She sounds very nice.

00:57:14.080 Uh, she's like a really cool outgoing woman.

00:57:16.060 Yeah, she's great.

00:57:16.800 And she sent me this, um, this one, one of your conversations with a young woman named

00:57:22.000 Danielle, I think, who was a virgin.

00:57:23.780 And then you were talking to her about losing her virginity.

00:57:26.740 Oh, yeah.

00:57:27.320 And then we were like, oh my God, what is, what if he asks you about sex?

00:57:30.760 And I was like, well, I guess I'll just tell him everything.

00:57:34.000 You know, cause like everyone, like I've gotten the, I've had someone do the, like the really

00:57:39.260 mean way of asking me about the whole Foxy Noxy thing, which is to be like, so are you

00:57:44.700 a dominatrix?

00:57:45.840 Like, is your kink to like hurt people?

00:57:47.940 Like, what is your fucking thing?

00:57:49.300 Like, are you the kinkiest?

00:57:50.320 Like, are you kinky?

00:57:51.520 And I'm like, well, first of all, you're making kinky people sound like evil people

00:57:54.680 and kinky people are great.

00:57:55.760 Yeah.

00:57:56.200 For the record.

00:57:56.860 It's not like you live in Transylvania.

00:57:57.800 No.

00:57:58.420 They're good people.

00:57:59.080 They're good people.

00:58:00.400 And they're all.

00:58:00.800 It's just two lots over for the Ren Faire.

00:58:02.680 Exactly.

00:58:03.520 I mean, they're up in the Ren Faire.

00:58:05.580 You just have to ask the leather maker for the other stuff.

00:58:09.800 But like, I'm, I'm really boring.

00:58:13.920 I, I'm not good at sex, you know, like, so, I mean, I thought I was good at it a little

00:58:18.860 bit, like, kind of around high school, and then it's been a little bit, not downhill,

00:58:22.340 but it's been certainly going off the edge of the hill since then.

00:58:25.320 Really?

00:58:25.720 Why?

00:58:26.360 I just don't like, it makes me real nervous, I think, a lot of times.

00:58:29.580 And then, um.

00:58:31.000 It's a form of communication, I've discovered.

00:58:32.840 Yeah.

00:58:33.120 So, I could see that making me nervous, yeah.

00:58:34.560 Oh, okay.

00:58:35.200 Well, you communicate for a living.

00:58:36.820 What are you talking about?

00:58:37.140 Yeah, barely, though.

00:58:38.700 Barely.

00:58:39.160 Like, I don't even know how I got this job sometimes, but I mean, I, I'm happy to have it.

00:58:42.860 I just, um, but yeah, I don't, I, I just can't imagine, like, what that would

00:58:48.220 be like, because then you're in this whole other world, everybody's like, oh, you're

00:58:51.680 this sexual being, and you're like, were you just like, am I, did, did your whole life

00:58:57.600 seem, it must have seemed like almost a, like a reality, like a joke or something?

00:59:02.200 Did it be like, what is going on?

00:59:04.200 Well, it, what, what it ended up becoming was, it became whatever anybody wanted it

00:59:08.980 to become in order to fit the narrative that they were pushing.

00:59:11.680 Wow.

00:59:12.120 In order to make the money that they were making.

00:59:13.940 And so, and that continues to this day where, like, someone decides that, like, my existence

00:59:19.460 only means this, like, Amanda is a villain, therefore every, the confirmation bias comes

00:59:25.800 down again, and everything she does, if it's, if it's a good thing, that's a nice thing,

00:59:29.740 well, we're just going to ignore that.

00:59:31.440 And if it's something that I, like, anything possible to, like, flip and, like, distort and

00:59:37.020 rip out of context to, to turn into the worst possible light, like, they'll do that.

00:59:42.080 And that's, that continues to be this to this day.

00:59:44.420 So there's this, like, constant, I'm constantly reminded of the, the avenues people are, or

00:59:49.780 the actions people are taking to see another human being, like you asking me to sit down

00:59:53.280 here across from you, and you talk to me about Ren Faire, like, I feel like you're trying

00:59:56.600 to see me as a person.

00:59:57.680 And that's so refreshing.

00:59:59.380 And, and, like, I get why my friend has a crush on you.

01:00:02.600 And then, like, and like, communication, like, yeah, well, communication is sexy, right?

01:00:08.700 Like, so, and it is a form of, and communication is a form of sex, and sex is a form of communication.

01:00:14.180 So if you think of it that way, it should be easy.

01:00:16.440 But then, like, and like the, the, on the other flip side of it, like, it is so, so ugly

01:00:21.420 when it doesn't matter who you are, or what you do, or how even, how much you reach out

01:00:27.000 to a human being.

01:00:27.840 Like, they just shut down, and there's a wall of hatred that, that comes from being

01:00:35.240 a puppet in their eyes.

01:00:36.400 Like, you're just a puppet.

01:00:37.420 You're just an object.

01:00:38.560 You're, you're an idea.

01:00:39.840 And, and you, you don't get to be treated like a, like a human being.

01:00:43.800 Wow.

01:00:44.100 I don't know.

01:00:44.540 It's so weird.

01:00:45.240 I don't know if this is just me.

01:00:46.260 No, this is, this makes a lot of sense.

01:00:48.080 And it actually leads into something, like, the media did you so wrong.

01:00:53.020 And in some ways, the media did me so right.

01:00:54.880 Like, I, I think that one thing that's important is, and when you say that, though, what do

01:00:58.920 you mean by that?

01:00:59.720 I mean that you can't put the media, like, a lot of people act like the media is this,

01:01:05.200 like, big one-eyed monster that, like, stomps around the world and crushes people with its

01:01:10.880 might.

01:01:11.200 And it's not.

01:01:12.100 It's like conglomeration of people who have platforms.

01:01:14.860 Right.

01:01:15.080 And have the ability to analyze information or not.

01:01:19.140 And I think that there was journalism that was asking hard questions.

01:01:24.140 And, um, and attempting to unravel the, like, the, the easy narrative that was being pushed

01:01:31.100 out there.

01:01:31.600 And then there were people who were just like, oh, it's such an easy, quick buck to, like,

01:01:35.720 do a salacious headline and just repeat that headline that someone else wrote over in Italy.

01:01:40.620 And, like, I don't have to think about it.

01:01:42.280 It's just an easy, it's an easy article.

01:01:44.460 It's just a, it's a financial thing.

01:01:46.880 Yeah.

01:01:47.220 There's no, yeah, there's not even a human edge to it.

01:01:49.280 But do, but I guess what I was thinking of is now, like, is it hard to now, it's like,

01:01:55.960 I know you have a podcast, you have a platform and you're talking a lot about justice and

01:01:59.980 your podcast.

01:02:00.440 I want to get the name of it again.

01:02:01.160 I'll mention it at the beginning, but what is it again?

01:02:02.900 The truth about true crime.

01:02:04.280 The truth about true crime.

01:02:05.680 And true crime is, I mean, I watched probably two episodes of something last night, you know,

01:02:10.580 and I don't even know what it was, but it's like, dude, I love it.

01:02:13.680 You know, if there's somebody, if they find some bones and they, or there's buried treasure.

01:02:17.980 What do you love about it?

01:02:19.120 Count me in.

01:02:19.720 I'm curious about this because, like, I'm, I was never a true crime person until I became

01:02:24.840 the subject of a true crime.

01:02:27.500 And so I come at the true crime genre not as, like, a fan, but as someone who understands

01:02:34.280 the human consequences of true crime.

01:02:36.820 And so I'm always trying to unpack the easy narrative that is, that surrounds a lot of these

01:02:42.600 crimes.

01:02:43.020 Oh, that's a good question you have.

01:02:44.620 And I'll answer right before.

01:02:45.740 So I don't forget this question.

01:02:48.120 Do you feel like then, because so many people are so obsessed with crime, with true crime,

01:02:54.460 with other people's real, really trauma, it's almost.

01:02:58.440 Yeah, the worst experiences of people's lives.

01:03:00.800 That's, that's the story.

01:03:02.600 Right.

01:03:03.040 Do you feel almost like we needed someone and not even an egotistical way, do you ever feel

01:03:09.060 like we needed someone to go through this gauntlet that you went through, to come out of it with

01:03:14.900 your perspective now?

01:03:16.040 Because I've never even heard someone say that I look at it from this other perspective,

01:03:20.400 right?

01:03:20.680 Because that perspective is going, could really help change a lot of other people's, the way

01:03:28.480 that we view and consume this stuff at such a, such a, like, crazy rate.

01:03:35.600 Like, do you feel like a little bit that?

01:03:38.720 I mean, I don't know.

01:03:40.180 That's kind of like a fate question where it's like, oh, did this need to happen?

01:03:44.160 Like, I don't know if it needed to happen.

01:03:45.460 It did happen.

01:03:46.280 And I find myself constantly up against, like, having a perspective that doesn't match up

01:03:53.400 with the perspective that most people have.

01:03:57.000 Wow.

01:03:57.720 You know, like when, when Epstein killed himself in prison, a lot of people's like first sort

01:04:02.900 of flippant reaction to it was good riddance.

01:04:06.120 The motherfucker, like, went after young girls and like abused young girls.

01:04:10.280 And that is all true.

01:04:11.360 He was a motherfucker.

01:04:12.560 But did he deserve to die in prison?

01:04:14.940 Did he deserve to, was it, is it our responsibility now that he was in our custody to, like, you

01:04:21.880 know, I, I believe that anyone should be allowed to kill themselves anytime.

01:04:24.800 Like, that's, that's a different issue.

01:04:26.600 But like when he's in our custody and we are responsible towards that person, we should

01:04:31.740 not be flippant about someone killing themselves when they are in our care.

01:04:36.680 It's like, that's for me, like, I was like, that's like someone else killing themselves.

01:04:42.460 Like, it, it, it's not something to be flippant about.

01:04:45.440 Right.

01:04:45.620 Because you're saying it reflects on our ability to, so that a prison also is a place where

01:04:51.200 there should be care.

01:04:52.420 Is that kind of?

01:04:53.320 If we, yes, absolutely.

01:04:54.760 Like, these are people who are now at our mercy.

01:04:58.300 Like, that's, that's the, the reality of a prison environment is you are, you have put

01:05:02.980 someone fully at the mercy of our justice system and our society and we are responsible

01:05:09.640 for that person now.

01:05:11.020 And it's not just like a good riddance.

01:05:14.060 Like, a lot of people have that, like, attitude of like, good riddance, throw the way, throw

01:05:17.860 away the key.

01:05:18.360 I hope he gets raped in prison.

01:05:19.560 I hope that they, you know, kill themselves.

01:05:21.700 And that's not what prison is for.

01:05:24.480 And.

01:05:24.640 It's funny.

01:05:24.940 I think it's some of, some of my thought was maybe the, well, I thought that they would

01:05:29.260 hopefully find a way to learn from this guy.

01:05:31.260 Sure.

01:05:32.060 Yeah.

01:05:32.340 I mean, that was originally the intention of prison.

01:05:35.080 Like, before, before there was prison, there was dungeons where you were kept until you

01:05:41.120 actually had the punishment that you were supposed to get, which was a corporeal punishment.

01:05:45.380 You had your hand cut off.

01:05:46.460 You were beaten.

01:05:47.120 You were killed.

01:05:48.120 That was the punishment for a crime.

01:05:50.060 And then people came along who were like, that is just brutal.

01:05:53.940 We need to understand that human beings have souls because they were religious and they

01:05:58.980 have the opportunity to have some kind of redemption.

01:06:01.260 But we have to kind of force that redemption on them.

01:06:04.180 So we're going to remove them from society and put them in a position of forced contemplation.

01:06:10.520 And that was what the prison environment was for.

01:06:13.000 But it was also like weirdly a way of punishing people's souls instead of their bodies.

01:06:18.180 So like the prison environment, weirdly, the purpose of it was to kind of be a soul-crushing

01:06:24.900 experience for the sake of redemption.

01:06:28.220 I don't know how successful it is at redeeming, like, does redemption come from being soul-crushed?

01:06:37.960 Like, in my experience, no.

01:06:40.380 In my experience, most of the people who end up in that soul-crushing environment just end

01:06:44.240 up hating society even more and feeling motivated to, like, be angry at society.

01:06:49.620 And so, like, it's the issue of, like, what do we do with people who have done wrongs in

01:06:54.700 society is really, really complicated and has to address, like, how human beings really

01:06:59.680 react to external things being forced upon them.

01:07:04.300 And I think the most people's reaction is just, fuck those guys.

01:07:09.560 They're human garbage.

01:07:10.720 Yeah.

01:07:11.140 And, you know, human garbage or not, they're human.

01:07:14.380 And they belong to our society.

01:07:16.440 The recyclables, you're saying.

01:07:17.420 Yeah.

01:07:18.860 So, yes.

01:07:19.880 You've been in there with them.

01:07:20.840 Yeah.

01:07:21.400 Yeah.

01:07:21.900 Yeah.

01:07:22.780 Was it tough to probably show people how much you cared while you were in there?

01:07:27.780 Like, if you're a caring person, I imagine, and you go into...

01:07:31.300 It would be tough, probably, because it would be hard to show...

01:07:34.000 Some people are so, you know, some people have, you know, done so many bad things or

01:07:39.160 in so much shame or just filled with hatred or suffering in different ways that it would

01:07:44.700 probably be tough sometimes to show people that you cared even.

01:07:48.240 Actually, it's really easy to show someone that you care.

01:07:51.120 In prison, I mean, though.

01:07:52.420 In prison or even outside of prison, I think the thing that to show someone that you care

01:07:57.560 is if you're present with them right now.

01:07:59.420 Because right now is the only thing that matters.

01:08:01.740 It doesn't matter what happened yesterday.

01:08:03.520 It matters what's happening right now between you and me.

01:08:06.300 And I don't care what you did yesterday.

01:08:08.800 Can I help you write a letter to your mom because you can't write?

01:08:12.860 Like, I can do that.

01:08:14.060 I don't care what you did.

01:08:15.360 Right.

01:08:15.760 And that's the way that I showed caring to people is, like, I never asked them what crime

01:08:20.400 they did.

01:08:21.020 I didn't care.

01:08:22.860 It didn't matter to me.

01:08:24.420 And it does matter in, like, the greater scheme of things because, like, we can't just

01:08:27.620 act like crimes don't matter.

01:08:29.220 Right.

01:08:29.520 Of course.

01:08:30.780 But if we're talking about, like, having a human connection with another person, all

01:08:35.740 that matters is right now.

01:08:37.780 And that is giving that person the opportunity to be a better version of themselves right

01:08:43.680 now.

01:08:44.020 Not tomorrow.

01:08:44.780 Not yesterday.

01:08:45.380 Just right now.

01:08:46.180 And that's all that matters.

01:08:47.140 With the platform that you have now, is it tough to use the, do you ever feel, like,

01:08:55.940 confused or disjointed about using media now because, like, realizing the power that it

01:09:02.520 has, you know, after you kind of went through a lot of, you know, different pressure cookers

01:09:07.600 of it or, you know, it was kind of put upon you in a lot of ways.

01:09:10.840 Do you feel, did it take some time for you to say, okay, I'm going to use the same, like,

01:09:15.900 airwaves and wavelengths that kind of damaged me to fight my own fight for what, to me,

01:09:24.800 kind of feels like justice sort of seems to be.

01:09:27.840 Yes.

01:09:28.460 Very central to the whole issue is the idea of justice.

01:09:31.460 Does justice exist?

01:09:32.700 Is justice something, is a construct that we've, that we've created and that we have to agree

01:09:37.400 upon?

01:09:37.940 Is justice a consensus?

01:09:39.020 Is justice something universal?

01:09:41.440 How do we rep, how do we enact justice in our world?

01:09:44.800 Like, these are all questions that I'm grappling with every day.

01:09:47.620 And, you know, it wasn't so much a question for me about the ethicalness or not of, like,

01:09:56.720 being a media person because, again, I don't think of media as this monstrous entity.

01:10:03.780 It's a collection of individuals and it's a tool.

01:10:06.680 And you can use that tool for good or you can use that tool for bad.

01:10:10.840 And I think that I can use that tool for good.

01:10:13.740 The question for me was, what is that going to cost me?

01:10:17.020 Because every time I put myself out there in the world, it comes with a cost.

01:10:22.840 There's a question.

01:10:24.580 Like, me being here right now talking to you, you know, it's not just a conversation.

01:10:29.340 It's an opportunity for us to, like, share ideas with people.

01:10:33.180 Right.

01:10:33.360 And how people react to those ideas is one thing.

01:10:36.540 How they react to us as human beings is another.

01:10:39.140 And, you know, I was, for a long time, I was hiding.

01:10:42.520 Like, I didn't want to have to be answerable to other people's hatred and judgment that

01:10:49.080 wasn't coming from a place of judging even me.

01:10:51.340 It was judging an idea of me that had been created not of me.

01:10:55.900 And so, like, being in constant conversation with Foxy Noxy is difficult.

01:11:04.360 But I've realized that I do have a different perspective that I think is useful.

01:11:11.840 And at the very least is in service of people who are suffering, who don't often get recognized

01:11:19.220 as victims of a thing, as victims of a justice system.

01:11:23.360 And I try to give voice to that.

01:11:25.020 I feel a responsibility, particularly because a lot of people who go through these issues,

01:11:31.340 nobody cares.

01:11:32.960 A person could have spent 20, like, there are plenty of people I know who spent, like,

01:11:36.680 20 plus years in prison and no one cares.

01:11:39.200 Yeah.

01:11:39.600 And for some reason, they care about me because I, like, have, you know, I'm a girl.

01:11:44.940 Like, I don't know.

01:11:45.780 Like, it's whatever the reasons are that people get so mad or so interested in me is an opportunity

01:11:53.860 for me to flip that around and go, but did you know that, like, there's not only is there

01:11:59.540 a human being in me, but there's a whole world of humanity that's behind the kind of hatred

01:12:04.600 that we just throw at people who are accused of crimes.

01:12:07.120 Wow.

01:12:07.480 Um, and what can we do about that?

01:12:09.760 So, like, I feel a responsibility and I feel that media is a very powerful tool that should

01:12:15.220 be used ethically and responsibly.

01:12:17.020 And I try to do that.

01:12:18.740 Am I successful?

01:12:19.940 Am I as successful as the people who, like, write really flippant headlines without doing

01:12:25.300 any research in order to just vilify the next person?

01:12:28.420 No, unfortunately, no.

01:12:29.600 I think you will be, though.

01:12:30.900 You think so?

01:12:31.460 Do you feel that?

01:12:31.700 I have no idea.

01:12:33.440 I think you have such a unique and special way of, like, being able to, first of all,

01:12:36.800 think and talk at the same time.

01:12:39.100 That's a massive skill.

01:12:40.200 Um, and also...

01:12:42.340 Isn't that your skill?

01:12:42.940 Oh, no.

01:12:44.260 That's not my skill.

01:12:45.660 It really isn't.

01:12:46.560 I don't know.

01:12:47.360 Like, I saw you, like, I was...

01:12:49.520 It really is not my skill.

01:12:51.060 I mean, I saw you talking to Danielle the Virgin and you were just kind of there and you were

01:12:54.560 present with her.

01:12:55.500 Yeah.

01:12:55.940 And, like, listening is thinking.

01:12:57.660 Like, listening is...

01:12:58.540 I think thinking and feeling often get, like, separated out as if they're, like, separate

01:13:02.580 things, but I think feelings are information and if you're processing your feelings, you're

01:13:07.520 thinking, you're processing information.

01:13:09.740 Yeah.

01:13:10.100 Um, and it sounds like that's what you do with a lot of people.

01:13:12.940 Yeah, I think I was good at it in the beginning.

01:13:14.500 I think I'm still okay with it.

01:13:15.800 I just have to get a little bit more connected with myself.

01:13:17.880 I just kind of, like, lost connection a little bit and just even in the past, like, month

01:13:21.440 or two, I've just been kind of exhausted a little.

01:13:23.260 Yeah.

01:13:23.560 I realize I've got to kind of recharge my batteries and stuff and even just thinking about different

01:13:27.140 things, you know?

01:13:28.040 Well, what's going on with you?

01:13:29.280 I think just probably...

01:13:31.120 I think I've just been burnt out.

01:13:33.080 Yeah?

01:13:33.360 Yeah, I was just, like, doing so much stuff that I just...

01:13:36.240 Like, I was basically kind of living my dreams and I wasn't even...

01:13:38.800 I couldn't even, like, feel...

01:13:39.920 I wasn't having, like, any joy almost.

01:13:41.920 I was like, man, I'm just...

01:13:43.220 You know what?

01:13:43.920 Like, I've kind of had that, like, this whole summer.

01:13:47.140 It's just been, like, nose to the grindstone, like, trying to tell these stories about vigilantism

01:13:51.820 for this season of the podcast.

01:13:53.300 Right.

01:13:53.520 And, like, on the one hand, I'm having incredible conversations with people who are, like, in real

01:13:59.740 moments of their lives making decisions that take them out of the norm.

01:14:03.480 Like, a guy who's a trucker who, like, goes around and tries to expose child predators

01:14:08.200 online and a guy who then puts on a mask and a cape and goes out and, like, beats up people

01:14:13.980 who are bullying other people.

01:14:15.340 Like, these are people who are taking action...

01:14:17.140 Vigilantes.

01:14:17.740 And they're vigilantes and they're taking action and they're making decisions and I'm

01:14:20.720 having these incredible emotional conversations with them.

01:14:23.820 And then I go back and I just, like, you have to just plug and write and research and just,

01:14:29.340 like, get the work done.

01:14:31.980 And it has been draining for me, too.

01:14:35.120 Well, you have to do all the work that people didn't do for...

01:14:37.720 That they didn't do for you, probably, too.

01:14:39.640 Yeah.

01:14:40.500 And that's, that's when, and that's, that is satisfying to me because it's, like, I

01:14:45.460 know what people didn't do for me.

01:14:47.460 Yeah.

01:14:47.800 And I don't want to make that mistake with someone else.

01:14:50.180 Like, I know what I needed.

01:14:51.820 Yeah.

01:14:52.140 And, like, the ability to offer that to someone else is, like, so, so satisfying.

01:14:57.280 Yeah.

01:14:57.400 And I'm sure you have, like, incredible conversations with people, but then you kind of come away

01:15:01.320 from them and you're, like, where am I?

01:15:04.200 Like, I've just been, like, in that other person's world and now I have to get work done and I

01:15:08.700 have to schedule meetings and I have to, like, you know, do all of the technological

01:15:12.500 work and, and, like, the emails, the endless emails.

01:15:15.840 Yeah.

01:15:15.980 And it feels, like, less meaningful than that one thing.

01:15:19.560 I mean, you got to get out there.

01:15:22.400 Like, I've been telling myself I need to go swing dancing more.

01:15:24.660 Oh, wow.

01:15:25.640 Yeah.

01:15:26.480 I mean...

01:15:27.320 You know, look, I think that, that sounds like a nice thing.

01:15:30.180 Does Christopher swing dance or no?

01:15:31.920 Yes.

01:15:32.420 We are, we are legit swing dancers.

01:15:34.340 Oh, you guys are hot to try, huh?

01:15:36.680 What do you do, though?

01:15:39.300 What do I like to do?

01:15:40.180 Well, it was funny because I like doing comedy and, and I've always liked it.

01:15:43.200 And then recently it just became a little bit, it just became, like, a little bit me, like,

01:15:49.700 I felt like I was on a conveyor belt of my own life and I was just kind of going.

01:15:53.300 And I was, like, kind of there at the controls, kind of, but I wasn't really, like, involved

01:15:58.660 almost, even though I was doing everything.

01:16:00.760 Yeah.

01:16:00.960 And so now I'm trying to take a little bit of a step back and actually just, I got a

01:16:06.340 job, I'm going to do some work out of town for about a month and a half and so it's going

01:16:10.360 to, but it's going to keep me in one place and I'm just going to take a little bit of

01:16:15.080 time to myself, a little more time to myself.

01:16:17.040 Is it like a media kind of a comedy thing or is it like a construction job?

01:16:21.280 It's a film, actually.

01:16:22.420 It's going to be a movie, yeah.

01:16:23.460 This guy, this actor hit me up personally just about a movie.

01:16:27.400 You know, I never really had any intentions of doing anything like that, but this guy,

01:16:31.200 like, literally, like, three people in the world maybe could have asked me and I feel

01:16:34.440 like this guy maybe was one of them.

01:16:36.320 So I'm going to try it out.

01:16:38.120 And also, I think part of me just needs a new experience.

01:16:40.460 It's not even, like, a big role.

01:16:41.520 That's what I was going to say.

01:16:42.600 Like.

01:16:42.740 But I need something to kind of just, just kind of remind me that of what's going on, you

01:16:48.280 know, just a little change of pace.

01:16:49.780 But also that, like, life can be different.

01:16:52.020 Like, that's the other thing that I think new experiences are so important about is, like, we kind

01:16:55.700 of all sort of dig our own trench and then we forget that, like, life could be a different

01:17:00.020 way.

01:17:00.380 And, like, I always have this, like, weird little fantasy in the back of my head of, like,

01:17:05.660 disappearing into, like, the mountains and making cuckoo clocks.

01:17:08.600 Yeah.

01:17:09.280 And that's, like, my weird little fantasy.

01:17:10.680 Oh, I could see that.

01:17:11.260 When I feel, like, too stuck and I'm, like, I'm just too stuck in this fucking life that

01:17:16.260 I'm in, like, I'm, like, or I could just go and, like, be a troll in the mountains

01:17:21.460 and make cuckoo clocks, that could also be my life.

01:17:26.960 I think, do you, when you look back at your, uh, how you, when you originally got incarcerated,

01:17:31.860 do you see how, like, like, you don't seem like somebody that would ever kill someone.

01:17:35.500 You don't even seem like somebody that would probably, I could see you maybe trying, you

01:17:38.900 know, jarring up some fireflies overnight, honestly.

01:17:41.880 Some what?

01:17:42.880 Fireflies, you know?

01:17:43.660 What does that mean?

01:17:44.320 Or what are those things that...

01:17:45.280 Lightning bugs.

01:17:45.960 Lightning bugs.

01:17:46.380 Oh, jarring them up.

01:17:47.660 I could see you jarring them up.

01:17:48.380 Oh, and then they, and the poor things, like, suffocate.

01:17:50.140 But they died, but yeah, it was an accident.

01:17:51.340 You didn't know you were going to kill a couple of them, you know what I'm saying?

01:17:53.140 You had all good intentions.

01:17:54.260 You just wanted, like, a little nightlight that you could carry with you to the restroom.

01:17:57.040 I could see you kind of going...

01:17:57.860 It would be magical.

01:17:58.560 It would be very whimsical.

01:17:58.940 Yes, I could see you doing something like that.

01:18:00.860 But do you see when people, like, do you see, like, that just...

01:18:05.260 But I could see how people would look at you and think, like, oh, maybe, you know,

01:18:08.320 she's whimsical-er.

01:18:10.220 Did you see, looking back, like, oh, maybe I could see, were you able to even recognize,

01:18:14.640 like, oh, I see how people looked at me and maybe the face I make or the way I smile or

01:18:21.720 my sense of humor or what I think is fun or...

01:18:25.540 And they...

01:18:27.300 Could you see how they transposed that or did you think that they just...

01:18:30.960 It was mostly just malicious?

01:18:32.280 I mean, I think that most of it was something that people were projecting onto me and I

01:18:42.900 was a convenient canvas for that because nobody knew who I was, right?

01:18:48.600 Like, I was a nobody.

01:18:50.160 And so that meant that I could be an anybody.

01:18:52.480 And then once people decided what that person was, like, having that be corrected, like,

01:18:57.900 you know, yes, you see me right now, this is how I am.

01:19:03.260 And I honestly feel like a lot of the negative things that people have felt about me have

01:19:11.200 been a projection of their...

01:19:13.100 Something, some kind of, like, nightmarish imagination that they have, they've just projected

01:19:17.500 onto me.

01:19:19.440 Because, again, it's like a confirmation bias.

01:19:21.760 You see what you want to see.

01:19:22.960 And if you want to see, like, someone could look at me right now and say, oh, I'm sitting

01:19:28.780 here, I'm daring to sit here, like, talking to someone as if, like, I am not a fucking

01:19:35.560 murderer and, like, me, I'm just constantly, like, just my very...

01:19:38.840 Like, a lot of people feel that my very existence is an affront to Meredith's memory and that,

01:19:44.520 like, the very fact that people even know my name and know that I exist is an offense.

01:19:51.120 That I am, that I am committing against Meredith's family.

01:19:57.480 And so, like, when my own just existence is a problem, like, anything can be a problem.

01:20:03.640 Right.

01:20:03.940 So...

01:20:04.660 Oh, it must be such a...

01:20:05.840 Is it sometimes a battle to get going every day in some ways?

01:20:08.440 Like, or is it...

01:20:09.660 Like, or does some days it just kind of...

01:20:12.720 You kind of have moments where it just, you forget that...

01:20:15.540 Not forget, but...

01:20:16.620 I never forget.

01:20:17.620 Um, I don't think I'll ever forget.

01:20:21.140 Um, but...

01:20:23.020 My life is not just what other people think of me.

01:20:26.960 Yeah.

01:20:27.220 In fact, the majority of my life is not that.

01:20:29.720 The majority of my life is who I love and what work I'm doing because I love the work

01:20:36.020 that I'm doing.

01:20:37.120 Um, it's the question of now what?

01:20:39.680 And the beautiful thing about my life right now is I can ask that question.

01:20:44.620 Um, and I suppose that the question never fully went away.

01:20:49.100 Even in prison, I was thinking, well, I guess this is my life.

01:20:55.440 I didn't think this was going to be my life, but how do I, like, how do I live my best life?

01:21:03.920 And...

01:21:04.320 So brave.

01:21:05.300 I don't know.

01:21:05.980 I mean, it's that or kill yourself.

01:21:07.700 Like, it's, it really is.

01:21:10.360 Like, what did you, like, I just wonder sometimes, I guess a lot of us always, I guess here's

01:21:14.460 a lot of people wonder if they went to prison, who they would be.

01:21:17.720 Oh, sure.

01:21:18.860 Um, one thing.

01:21:19.860 Okay.

01:21:20.040 Here's something that's like really sad.

01:21:22.120 Um, a thought that I have, again, like, I feel like I'm such a, um, I don't think so.

01:21:28.140 Yeah, I, so, okay, I worry that I wouldn't be a great person if it weren't for everything

01:21:37.900 that I went through.

01:21:38.760 Like, I would be an okay person.

01:21:39.780 I've always been a nice person.

01:21:40.860 I've always, like, rooted for the underdog.

01:21:42.640 And I did, you know, I was, you know, doing musicals, and I would probably still be going

01:21:46.940 to Ren Fairs.

01:21:48.020 But, like, I, and that makes you a good person.

01:21:52.540 I think it helps a little.

01:21:53.700 Yeah, but, like, you know, before all this happened, I didn't know about what poverty

01:22:00.320 and mental illness looked like and how that affected people.

01:22:03.000 And I didn't know what the justice system was doing to people.

01:22:05.940 And I did, never was on my radar.

01:22:07.920 You never would have known.

01:22:08.480 I never would have known.

01:22:09.520 And so, like, I think that I would have lived a much more clueless existence.

01:22:15.960 Um, but I hope not.

01:22:17.700 I hope that, like, I would have had other experiences that would have allowed me to grow.

01:22:21.420 So it's hard to say, though, I, I hate playing the what if game.

01:22:24.900 Because on the one hand, like, I do think about, I wasn't there.

01:22:28.340 And I wasn't there when my sister turned, like, turned into a teenager.

01:22:31.260 And I wasn't there to see her.

01:22:32.740 Like, I wasn't there to, like, go and get her training bra with her.

01:22:35.240 I wasn't there.

01:22:36.120 And that means that, and I'm never going to get that back.

01:22:38.340 Like, but on the other hand, like, I've, I got a crash course in humanity.

01:22:48.120 And I feel like I've done a lot of hard work to absorb meaning and compassion from all of that.

01:22:57.060 And I'm proud of that.

01:22:58.400 And I want to share that with people.

01:23:00.080 And I, and I think that's a good thing.

01:23:01.480 Yeah, it seems, man, it's just, it's such, there's so much, like, I guess, kind of, like, forgiveness in your story, sort of.

01:23:14.080 Or not forgiveness, but just, it's like, you didn't even kind of take that route of, like, blame.

01:23:19.480 Yeah, a lot of people ask me about forgiveness.

01:23:22.060 And I'm like, well, I don't even feel like I've forgiven.

01:23:24.220 Yeah, you kind of took this whole other route.

01:23:25.620 Yeah, there's all, like, floating above, yeah.

01:23:28.620 Your perception of it all, do you feel like, do you relate to different characters now?

01:23:34.480 Like, villains, whenever you see stuff on television, do you relate to more, like, Jessica Rabbit or Cruella DeVille?

01:23:41.580 Jessica was trouble.

01:23:43.640 People like to think she was just cute, but she was trouble.

01:23:46.320 She was trouble, but she was also just had, you know, Roger Rabbit's back the whole time.

01:23:52.060 So, like, sweet, yeah, I, I've been compared to Jessica Rabbit before, which is hilarious to me.

01:23:57.360 Um, but, but from the, I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way kind of way.

01:24:01.620 And so people have used that on me before.

01:24:04.420 Um, uh, I don't relate to Cruella DeVille because I love animals.

01:24:11.360 Right.

01:24:12.100 But, get me in a room with Cruella DeVille, and I think that I could uncover things about her that, that, I, I kind of pride myself on being willing to speak to anyone.

01:24:24.560 I, I, I will talk to anyone.

01:24:27.240 I've lived with people who killed their own children.

01:24:29.380 So, like, I can, I feel comfortable speaking to someone and being willing to, like, be present with them.

01:24:37.160 Again, like, it's not, like, I, who you are right now is a product of all of the things that came before you, but I'm interested in the things that, that's happening right now.

01:24:45.900 Wow.

01:24:46.080 And there could be something blossoming right now that's real.

01:24:48.880 You're like a humanitarian, you're like a momentarian, almost.

01:24:52.140 I mean.

01:24:53.120 If that's a thing.

01:24:54.120 I, I, I just, I want, I want to give everyone the opportunity to be a human being.

01:25:00.680 Mm-hmm.

01:25:00.860 And, and, and to grow, and, and to be different, and to then what my expectation is going to be.

01:25:07.700 I'm really open to that.

01:25:09.540 Um, I, and I don't think that makes me gullible or, or, or silly, because I can tell when, I've definitely had encounters with people who were very dangerous and who hurt me.

01:25:19.160 Um, and I've learned from those experiences, from allowing myself to open up to people who were hurtful to me.

01:25:26.100 What makes you hopeful, I think, which is something that's very nice to have.

01:25:29.620 Mm-hmm.

01:25:30.040 You know, and someone has to be that.

01:25:31.900 Mm-hmm.

01:25:32.600 Yeah, and I think that everyone is sort of motivated, not out of, like, evil intentions, but out of a, when people do things that are wrong, it's because they misunderstand how, what they're going to do.

01:25:45.000 They're, they misunderstand where their motivations are coming from, and they misunderstand their effect on people, or I guess, I mean, there are some people who are just fucking, like, beating people up and, and raping people and killing people, and they know what they're doing.

01:26:00.000 Um, but a lot of times, they come from a place of feeling entitled or justified, and, like, to unpack where they, how they feel, how they got to that place of feeling justified and entitled enough to enact a violence on another human being is interesting to me.

01:26:19.360 Yeah, that's where we could solve things.

01:26:20.860 That's where we could solve it.

01:26:21.640 Exactly.

01:26:22.040 Almost everything, it feels like.

01:26:23.460 Yeah.

01:26:23.860 It feels like, yeah, sometimes we're fighting the, yeah, we're.

01:26:26.840 It's not enough for me to, like, point out, oh, you did this because you were feeling entitled, like, you're an entitled asshole.

01:26:32.380 It's, I want to, like, go and be like, but how did you get there?

01:26:35.240 Right.

01:26:35.680 How'd you get there, you entitled asshole?

01:26:37.400 Yeah.

01:26:37.960 Right.

01:26:38.780 Right.

01:26:39.140 I want to find the entitled, uh, large testing.

01:26:41.480 Yeah, like, what's going on?

01:26:41.760 Let's get back up the system.

01:26:42.820 Yeah, yeah, totally.

01:26:44.100 Oh, that's so interesting.

01:26:45.320 Yeah, it's funny.

01:26:45.860 It's like, um, yeah, the people aren't the, in the end of it all, yeah, people aren't the problem.

01:26:51.320 And it's, it's, it's whatever has caused us to behave these ways is, is, is the problem, you know?

01:26:59.380 And yeah, sometimes you wonder if it's defeatable or not, but the only thing that makes you feel good is to try and defy, is to try and fight it.

01:27:06.980 Yeah, and, and I think to try to see it.

01:27:09.660 Right.

01:27:09.900 Because I think that a lot of people don't want to, like, look that far down because they feel like it's justifying bad behavior.

01:27:17.720 But I don't think understanding bad behavior means you're justifying it.

01:27:23.220 I, I think that.

01:27:24.980 Yeah, because I sometimes have wondered while we've been speaking, like, okay, is she just trying to justify that people behave badly, like, in these systems and stuff?

01:27:32.000 But, and I don't want to see what you're saying, but having an understanding of it, um, because then if you can, you can help them understand it too.

01:27:38.540 Yeah.

01:27:38.860 Because, man, imagine what it feels like probably to have killed someone and not even have any clue why.

01:27:43.160 Yeah.

01:27:43.700 And then that's how you're just living.

01:27:45.000 Totally.

01:27:45.480 Yeah, and, like, I've talked to women.

01:27:47.400 I've talked to women who killed their kids because they were feeling postpartum depression and they, then they didn't have a good, uh, support system around them.

01:27:56.680 And they just felt like they, they were, have, they had a breakdown, they had a mental breakdown of, like, I can't handle my own life.

01:28:03.560 And the only thing that I know to do right now in this, like, I'm trapped in my life is to put my baby in a garbage can.

01:28:11.480 I can't, like, I can't think of anything else to do.

01:28:14.900 And, and that, I've talked to that person and she feels terrible for what she did and she can never escape it.

01:28:22.620 And she constantly feels like she's falling in black holes and, like, and can never get out of it.

01:28:27.600 But, like, you know, I understand that she felt, like, how she felt when she did that bad thing.

01:28:37.160 And that doesn't justify it.

01:28:37.840 Yeah, and empowering people with understanding is, is, uh, there's, there is something empowering about that.

01:28:41.920 And empowering them to, like, get out of that place is also good.

01:28:46.140 Like, I, I think that right now there's a, there's this kind of movement for sort of, like, defining people as one thing.

01:28:52.940 And then saying, you are that thing and you will be that thing forever.

01:28:55.680 And, like, fuck you.

01:28:57.400 And that's not how human beings work.

01:29:00.080 But that's changing, though, I think.

01:29:01.420 Like, even, did you see, uh, Joe Rogan interview Bernie Sanders?

01:29:03.920 Did you happen to see that?

01:29:04.580 Oh, no, I didn't see that, no.

01:29:05.940 And whatever thoughts you're on politics and I, you know, and I don't talk much about politics.

01:29:09.260 But, um, but it was just interesting to see a long-form conversation with a politician.

01:29:15.880 It just gave you a different, it gave you way different ideas of who that man was, kind of, as a person.

01:29:21.320 Instead of soundbites.

01:29:22.380 Yes, instead of soundbites.

01:29:23.520 It was, it was really fascinating, I thought.

01:29:25.240 Did you think, Nick?

01:29:25.900 Yeah, it was great.

01:29:26.820 Yeah.

01:29:27.360 They need more of that.

01:29:28.280 He's done it with Tulsi Gabbard, too.

01:29:29.900 I, if every single candidate could do it, uh, I think we'd be, all be more informed.

01:29:34.560 Yeah.

01:29:34.880 We would be better off, for sure.

01:29:36.280 So, I think, yeah, I think especially through podcasting and stuff that the, the, the hope

01:29:43.420 that you're talking about, I think it's growing, you know?

01:29:46.040 I really believe that.

01:29:46.860 I think that's fair.

01:29:47.220 Yeah, no, I.

01:29:47.560 We talk about it a lot on here.

01:29:48.540 I really think it's growing.

01:29:49.540 I mean, I especially think with Rogan and talking to Bernie Sanders, I think it's going to change

01:29:53.260 the entire landscape of, like, how people accept other, how they learn who a person is.

01:30:02.320 Yeah.

01:30:02.560 Um, so I think, uh, and you, yeah, you seem like you're going to be like, like, like a

01:30:08.040 coat, like a coat, like a coat, like a operative, like a black ops professional on like, you

01:30:14.400 just, so you're very great at communicating with people.

01:30:17.100 Um, yeah, it's a great skill.

01:30:19.040 I'm sitting here the whole time wishing that I was you instead of me.

01:30:21.380 Why?

01:30:21.780 Um, just because you're just better at talking and it's like, it's more, it's just more organized.

01:30:27.100 Um, what, uh, I have this question for you.

01:30:30.700 So you are, you haven't, you've been, you've been engaged now and you guys have a, how does

01:30:36.800 that go?

01:30:37.020 You guys had such a wild engagement, the meteor landed a meteor of love.

01:30:41.800 Yes.

01:30:42.320 And, uh, which is really cool.

01:30:43.980 It kind of reminded me of like chivalry and like, oh, it's, it reminded me when I was

01:30:47.480 in junior high, dude, I had acne, bro.

01:30:50.520 I mean, I had a lot.

01:30:51.540 Oh my God.

01:30:51.960 I had the most acne.

01:30:53.300 Remember how I never got laid in high school?

01:30:55.240 Yeah.

01:30:56.320 Yeah.

01:30:57.940 Bro, I would smile and some of my acne would like bust if I smiled too big.

01:31:02.140 Oh God.

01:31:02.160 It was just like pain.

01:31:03.420 I just had like those deep ones, like the deep, deep pain.

01:31:07.960 It was like, it's like as deep as my shame.

01:31:10.120 And like, that's how deep my acne was.

01:31:12.100 It was so bad.

01:31:13.580 Yeah.

01:31:13.820 There's no, there's no top.

01:31:15.220 There's not even a zit.

01:31:16.180 No, it's just a deep anger.

01:31:19.320 That's a rock in your face.

01:31:21.760 It's so bad.

01:31:22.960 But at that time I walked across the basketball court and like, I got on my knee and I gave

01:31:27.260 a rose to some girl, like, you know, and she had some real thighs on her, bro, but she

01:31:31.880 was really, she was really beautiful.

01:31:33.780 And, uh, so anyway, the best of us have.

01:31:36.020 Yeah.

01:31:36.920 And I really do.

01:31:38.220 I've got a butt, like a down syndrome girl.

01:31:40.120 But, um, and no offense if anybody has down syndrome either, but, um, but anyway, it just

01:31:45.220 kind of reminded me of that.

01:31:46.100 I was like, Oh, here's some nice chivalry going on.

01:31:48.520 Well, the gesture, right?

01:31:49.740 Like, yes, the gesture that somebody took time that he, that he thought in advance.

01:31:53.920 Yeah.

01:31:54.520 Um, what, what are some things that, uh, that attracted you to your current fiance?

01:31:59.580 Oh, that's a great question.

01:32:01.080 Thank you for asking.

01:32:02.020 Well, I know he cared enough to come with you.

01:32:03.520 Well, I just think it's, you know, I think, uh, yeah.

01:32:06.280 And I'm curious as to like, how are you were able to like, um, yeah, I guess how someone

01:32:12.280 like you like looks, uh, how they accept like, you know, people, other people's care or how

01:32:17.260 they notice it, you know?

01:32:18.460 Mm-hmm.

01:32:18.720 Um, well, one of the wonderful, special things about Chris, um, is when I first met him,

01:32:24.760 he did not Google me.

01:32:26.460 Um, he didn't really know much about the case.

01:32:29.420 Um, and actually maybe I should just give you our origin story.

01:32:32.580 Do you want our origin story?

01:32:33.480 I'll take it.

01:32:33.860 Yeah.

01:32:33.980 Okay, cool.

01:32:35.000 Since, yeah, after the meteor, I need to know, uh, I need to know where the superheroes began.

01:32:40.320 So our origin story is that, um, I was doing local arts correspondence for a local newspaper

01:32:46.840 under a pseudonym, um, around like 2015.

01:32:50.820 Um, and I was, I was doing arts correspondence.

01:32:53.880 I was going to plays, writing reviews, doing all that kind of thing.

01:32:56.160 And I was given this debut novel by these two novelists.

01:33:00.140 Um, and I, and I read it and it was hilarious and heartbreaking and I laughed and I cried and

01:33:06.200 was so smart.

01:33:07.580 And so I wrote this rave review, submitted it to the paper and I was going to be the end

01:33:11.460 of it.

01:33:11.780 Except the very next day I walked out of my apartment building and across the street in

01:33:16.060 like the diner window was like a concert poster before a book reading for this book that I

01:33:21.500 had just read.

01:33:22.100 And I was like, that's coinkidink.

01:33:24.000 Like I never go out, but maybe I'll go to this book reading.

01:33:27.900 So I did.

01:33:28.900 And when I got there.

01:33:29.760 Wow.

01:33:29.780 So you, you felt susceptible to a poster for a book reading.

01:33:33.300 Yes, I did.

01:33:34.120 And the concert before.

01:33:35.120 Remember, I'm a nerd.

01:33:36.160 Yes.

01:33:36.560 So.

01:33:36.840 No, I wonder, I wonder who falls susceptible to those posters.

01:33:40.300 And now I know who does.

01:33:41.840 Two thumbs, this person.

01:33:43.620 Um, and so I went and what I witnessed was, um, these two guys.

01:33:49.500 One of them is this like big, bald military guy with a lisp and his best friend who had

01:33:56.820 like stripes carved into his beard and like Elton John t-shirt and like glasses.

01:34:02.860 And it was the most beautiful bromance I had ever seen.

01:34:07.720 Oh yeah, I can see that.

01:34:08.600 And I asked them for an interview.

01:34:10.420 So they invited me over to Chris's house and we did an interview, but that kind of devolved

01:34:15.340 into drinking scotch and watching Star Trek and like meandering out into the like neighborhood

01:34:21.380 throughout the evening and just kind of like shenanigans.

01:34:23.800 And at the end of that, Gavin, his best friend, this military guy gave me this big bear hug

01:34:29.460 and Chris reached out and was like, and to shake my hand and said, we should be friends.

01:34:35.100 And, you know, that's a throwaway kind of thing, except like this came a month after

01:34:40.020 I was fully exonerated.

01:34:41.500 Oh wow.

01:34:42.100 And it was the first time I thought, oh, I can make friends in the real world, like a

01:34:49.780 real person.

01:34:51.100 And so they became like my first friends after I was fully exonerated.

01:34:56.200 And, you know, life went on and-

01:34:59.300 Oh yeah, friendship will escalate.

01:35:00.880 Yeah, friendship will escalate.

01:35:02.180 And so nine months later, we started hooking up and dating.

01:35:07.280 And, you know, poor Chris, like he has to, you know, his relationship has been with me,

01:35:13.880 but it's also kind of been with that like doppelganger version of me in the room.

01:35:17.860 Like my trauma is an ever-present part of my life.

01:35:21.120 Little anecdotes about like, oh, have you seen WALL-E?

01:35:23.680 And I was like, when did it come out?

01:35:25.000 Because I was probably in prison.

01:35:27.500 Like that kind of thing just like comes up.

01:35:29.780 Yeah, you can't even play fuck, marry, kill at all without somebody being like, well,

01:35:33.320 that's a little.

01:35:34.280 Do people say that all the time?

01:35:35.300 Oh, all the time.

01:35:35.940 It's me, Casey Anthony.

01:35:37.520 And who's the other one?

01:35:39.860 In fuck, marry, kill.

01:35:41.840 It's another person.

01:35:42.960 And Jodi Arias.

01:35:44.200 But do people say things to you all the time?

01:35:45.820 And they're like, oh, man, I didn't even realize that I can't say that.

01:35:48.400 Like it must, does that happen sometimes or not really?

01:35:50.000 Oh, no.

01:35:51.240 I am super accommodating and I have a sense of humor about the whole thing.

01:35:56.060 Oh, yeah.

01:35:56.080 It seems like it.

01:35:56.740 I am not going to be like, ah, rumpf.

01:35:59.740 Right.

01:35:59.960 You know, but like, I understand when people are in a space where it's just like, I can't

01:36:06.680 laugh about that.

01:36:08.100 I don't know.

01:36:08.560 I did have one comedian make a joke about me once and it came at just a really bad time.

01:36:15.920 Like it came on the heels of him meeting me in a very different environment.

01:36:20.540 He was actually interviewing Chris about his book and he didn't know it was me.

01:36:25.420 And I just kind of happened to be there.

01:36:26.900 I was like, um, I was doing some cross stitch in the corner.

01:36:30.380 You're always, you know, in every story, you're like in the 1700s.

01:36:34.160 I know, but it was like, it was a super Mario cross stitch.

01:36:37.460 So it was modern day.

01:36:38.280 Okay, understood.

01:36:39.260 Yeah.

01:36:39.780 So I was doing a super Mario cross stitch in the corner.

01:36:42.180 And this, and so like this guy doesn't really notice me and it's only after the interview,

01:36:46.400 after we left that he realized it was me.

01:36:49.140 And, you know, six months go by and my little sister for her birthday wants to go out to

01:36:55.220 see this comedian.

01:36:56.720 And so we all go out, we all get dressed up, like all the girls doing the girly thing and

01:37:01.160 going out to see this comedian that she likes.

01:37:03.160 And the opener for this comedian is this other guy who met me six months ago, but didn't realize

01:37:09.800 who I was.

01:37:10.720 And he starts out his bit with, you know, you know how like, you don't know when there's

01:37:16.900 like a famous person in the room with you until after they've left.

01:37:19.980 And then he goes on on the shtick where he's like, man, you can't like leave me in a room

01:37:24.820 with Amanda Knox.

01:37:25.640 She'll kill me with her knitting needles.

01:37:27.220 And it was just not a good joke.

01:37:31.780 Like it was, it wasn't a good joke, but it was, it was also just, it hurt because like

01:37:40.240 on the one hand, my little sister was like, it's my little sister's birthday.

01:37:43.640 And suddenly my name gets dropped and like, it's suddenly everyone's like, the focus is

01:37:47.720 on me.

01:37:48.200 And there's like, Amanda, is she going to be okay?

01:37:49.760 Like they're talking about her.

01:37:50.820 They're making jokes about her killing people with knitting needles.

01:37:53.180 And so on the one hand, it upset me because it took us out of like my sister's birthday.

01:38:00.200 And on the other hand, it upset me because it's like, this guy met me and I was like,

01:38:04.160 I was just being me.

01:38:05.860 I was doing super Mario cross stitch in the corner.

01:38:08.100 And he felt like the joke to make about that situation was she'll kill me with knitting

01:38:12.660 needles.

01:38:13.020 And it's like, that is so easy and so mean.

01:38:19.300 I don't know.

01:38:19.880 It just, it did, it felt like, you know, like I expect it when people don't know me

01:38:23.700 and haven't met me in person to like make jokes at my expense because they just don't

01:38:29.140 think I'm a human being.

01:38:30.700 And I, I wasn't expecting like the person who, it would be like if you went out and did

01:38:35.620 a comedy thing after like having this conversation and was like, oh, I, you know, I'm better

01:38:41.240 like, you know.

01:38:41.600 It hurt your feelings.

01:38:42.660 Or yeah.

01:38:43.100 Like, yeah.

01:38:43.500 Or if, well, if you made a joke about like, you know, about me killing you in the room

01:38:49.220 or something like that's, it's not a good joke.

01:38:51.560 Like if you want to make a joke, like I'm fine with the people making jokes about me,

01:38:56.220 but like be, make them good jokes.

01:38:58.560 I don't know.

01:38:59.440 If you keep her around, you can get away with anything.

01:39:01.780 Yeah.

01:39:02.080 Yeah.

01:39:02.360 Everyone will think I'm guilty.

01:39:03.700 Like that's a good one.

01:39:04.740 Right.

01:39:05.560 So.

01:39:05.920 Oh, Amanda did it.

01:39:06.840 Yeah, exactly.

01:39:07.980 And like the joke that I say around everyone is like, you're not allowed to die around

01:39:11.940 me because I don't care what you did.

01:39:14.480 Like I'm like, if someone give that guy a high McLaneuver, because I can't be.

01:39:18.880 I'm 0 for 1.

01:39:19.360 I'm 0 for 1.

01:39:20.300 Like I can't like deal with this.

01:39:22.000 Nobody's going to believe this second one.

01:39:23.180 No one's going to believe me.

01:39:24.920 Even like.

01:39:26.400 Yeah.

01:39:26.600 You only get one get out of jail in four years card.

01:39:29.260 I guess so.

01:39:31.780 So you and Chris and so you guys have a wedding date set yet or not?

01:39:34.920 Yeah, February 29th, which is Leap Day.

01:39:38.520 I had a couple of nerds.

01:39:40.000 I know.

01:39:41.280 And I know.

01:39:41.800 But even better.

01:39:42.820 And this is like the best.

01:39:43.980 So like we took.

01:39:44.640 So cute.

01:39:45.360 We took like the kind of crystal of that first thing.

01:39:50.240 And we were like.

01:39:50.620 And I was referencing a video.

01:39:51.720 You guys don't know.

01:39:52.200 I was referencing a video on YouTube that you can see of their proposal.

01:39:55.340 Yeah.

01:39:55.620 So Chris basically made a meteorite fall and crash land in my backyard.

01:40:00.480 And inside the meteorite wasn't just like a ring.

01:40:03.420 It was a broken data crystal from the future Encyclopedia Galactica.

01:40:08.600 That was like Wikipedia of our future together.

01:40:12.280 And he was like, wow, I guess we have a future together.

01:40:14.780 I guess that means.

01:40:16.260 Do I like ask you now?

01:40:18.200 I guess it's really happening now.

01:40:20.020 Will you marry me?

01:40:20.880 And like that was like the game was like, oh, the future says that I propose to you right now.

01:40:25.940 So I guess I have to propose to you right now.

01:40:27.940 And so what we've done is we've built a story around that where the data crystal came rocketing back in time because us in the future went to the Encyclopedia Galactica and looked ourselves up and broke our time stream.

01:40:44.780 So our time stream has been broken and now we are only hypothetical Amanda and Chris getting married.

01:40:51.580 And unless everyone we love comes together into one bubble outside of space and time and knits our time stream together, then we don't exist anymore.

01:41:02.040 So.

01:41:02.680 Still knitting there.

01:41:04.400 More knitting it in there.

01:41:06.000 Yeah.

01:41:06.820 Wow.

01:41:07.380 That's cool.

01:41:08.060 Yeah, it's really cute.

01:41:10.400 And it's just, yeah, it's still, yeah, it's like a lot of make believe, you know, it's cool though.

01:41:16.240 We like to, I love to play.

01:41:18.400 Yeah.

01:41:18.760 Dancing is playing, getting dressed up in costumes is playing.

01:41:21.920 You've always been like that.

01:41:22.800 I've always loved to play.

01:41:24.620 And music is playful.

01:41:26.880 Like if you're singing and playing music together, that's play because you can, like you never know what the next person is going to happen and you just kind of like bounce off of them.

01:41:33.980 I love play and I love kind of like getting people out of their shells to play with me.

01:41:40.000 And I think that if you give people an excuse to put on a costume, they'll do it.

01:41:44.080 But they need an excuse.

01:41:45.220 I don't need an excuse.

01:41:46.580 I'll put on a costume at any time.

01:41:48.360 But like a lot of the people I love need an excuse.

01:41:51.020 And so it's not going to be Halloween.

01:41:53.020 It's going to be February 29th.

01:41:55.540 It's going to be a wedding.

01:41:56.500 Yeah.

01:41:56.860 Wow.

01:41:57.060 It's beautiful.

01:41:58.580 Congratulations on so much going on in your life.

01:42:01.280 Thank you.

01:42:01.680 You know, I texted to the guy Payne Lindsay.

01:42:04.460 Do you know who he is?

01:42:05.080 He does.

01:42:05.360 Yeah, I love Payne Lindsay.

01:42:06.320 He's great.

01:42:06.880 Yeah.

01:42:07.020 I was going to try to connect you guys.

01:42:08.400 I don't know if maybe if you have been connected.

01:42:10.780 Yes.

01:42:11.100 We ran into each other at a true crime convention.

01:42:14.900 Cool.

01:42:15.800 Of course.

01:42:17.140 Yeah.

01:42:17.920 No, I was just thinking a few minutes ago.

01:42:19.660 I was like, I wonder who maybe if she was going to, you know, have a guest or or.

01:42:23.880 He's actually invited me to be on one of his new podcasts.

01:42:28.360 But I think it's supposed to, I think everyone's supposed to be anonymous.

01:42:31.180 So maybe I just ruined it.

01:42:32.360 Oh, well, if you decide that that's true, we can take that part out.

01:42:35.540 No, it's fine.

01:42:37.520 Congratulations.

01:42:38.180 Thanks so much for coming in.

01:42:39.400 Do we have any other questions, Nick?

01:42:40.600 Did some come in from the viewers or did we cover it?

01:42:42.420 Oh, we have a couple Patreon.

01:42:43.780 But I was wondering like how familiar you are with some of the really big true crime stories

01:42:48.900 like serial and making a murder and if you see any like parallels with your case in them

01:42:53.940 or if you have specific like you think they did it or didn't do it in those instances.

01:42:59.160 I know.

01:42:59.520 People love those didn't or didn't do it.

01:43:00.980 Yeah.

01:43:01.560 I'm aware of both those cases.

01:43:03.060 So Adnan Syed and Brendan Dassey.

01:43:06.740 So I am good friends with one of Brendan Dassey's attorneys who's an expert in false confessions.

01:43:14.700 I think that there's a flagrant abuse of his rights.

01:43:21.940 He was forced to falsely confess and that is the only evidence they used to convict him.

01:43:26.700 It's obscene that his conviction wasn't overturned.

01:43:30.880 It's obscene that he's in there.

01:43:32.620 It's obscene that he's in there.

01:43:34.600 And, you know, Stephen Avery, the question is a little more complicated and I don't know

01:43:41.740 the facts of his case as well.

01:43:44.020 But I know also through my friend that Brendan Dassey, it's just ludicrous and he needs to

01:43:51.120 get out of prison now and anything anyone can do to help matters.

01:43:55.620 And like one of the things that I'm trying to do to help in my own way is just try to

01:43:58.520 raise awareness of false confessions and coercive interrogation techniques and how police, once

01:44:05.020 again, like in these environments, you know, people think that if you make a false confession

01:44:09.160 or a false admission or a false accusation, like that it's coming from you when in fact

01:44:14.600 it's like the police are authoring a narrative and you have to just sign on and like they

01:44:19.820 bully you and psychologically torture you until you can't take it anymore and you're

01:44:25.100 willing to sign on to anything just to make it stop.

01:44:27.560 Oh, I can imagine.

01:44:28.380 Four or five hours of torture and that's...

01:44:30.400 No, it's...

01:44:31.600 So it's...

01:44:34.600 It's...

01:44:35.100 Yeah, no.

01:44:35.840 Like and Brendan Dassey was so young and he like he was...

01:44:39.200 So impressionable.

01:44:40.360 He was a minor, so impressionable.

01:44:41.260 Yeah.

01:44:41.880 They like put him through it for days and days and days.

01:44:44.000 It's just...

01:44:44.480 It's ridiculous what happened to him.

01:44:46.460 Adnan Syed, I think there is...

01:44:48.100 I signed alongside a number of my exoneree buddies, we all signed a petition in order

01:44:54.920 to get his case re-looked at.

01:44:57.380 So, you know, like...

01:44:57.920 Now, when you say that, do you mean that he is...

01:45:00.080 That you believe that he's innocent or you just think that he should be re-looked at?

01:45:03.180 He deserves to have a new trial.

01:45:04.980 I don't think that the evidence that was used to convict him was sufficient to find guilt.

01:45:10.280 And, you know, I think that it's only fair that someone is actually put through a justice

01:45:22.100 process based on evidence that makes sense.

01:45:24.720 And it's only then that we can all determine that.

01:45:27.120 I would love to sit on a jury one day.

01:45:29.160 Yeah.

01:45:29.520 But no one's ever going to put me on a jury.

01:45:32.000 Like, no one's ever going to put me on a jury.

01:45:34.340 And I would love to be on that jury.

01:45:35.780 Gosh.

01:45:36.340 Maybe...

01:45:36.620 What if you knit a nice disguise?

01:45:37.980 I bet you could go on.

01:45:39.320 I mean...

01:45:39.800 Because, yeah, I think you'd be a good juror.

01:45:42.200 You know?

01:45:42.380 Yeah.

01:45:42.680 I think you'd have probably a lot of...

01:45:44.200 I bet you'd have a lot of questions, probably, but I bet it would be good.

01:45:46.600 Oh, certainly.

01:45:47.220 And I mean...

01:45:47.680 And, you know, I come from an experience, but that doesn't mean that I'm, like, biased

01:45:51.640 towards innocence or guilt or anything.

01:45:53.440 Like, what I am biased about is, like, I know how fucked up the system can be.

01:46:00.120 Yeah, you're like Amanda Dufresne.

01:46:02.660 I just thought of that, actually.

01:46:06.580 Do we have anything else, Jenny?

01:46:08.500 All the Patreon, we pretty much answered.

01:46:10.780 But I just had one question.

01:46:12.120 Sure.

01:46:12.520 Like, what was your day like when you found out that you were re-convicted?

01:46:16.520 Like, you were in the U.S.

01:46:17.900 Did you just, like, roll over to a text message?

01:46:19.520 You're like, oh, shit.

01:46:20.400 Like, I'm just curious.

01:46:22.040 Oh, God.

01:46:23.100 The buildup to that was really hard.

01:46:25.500 It wasn't like, oh, yeah.

01:46:27.600 Oh, look at that.

01:46:28.260 Look at me.

01:46:28.620 There was, I think the thing, the more shocking moment for me was actually when the Supreme

01:46:38.820 Court in Italy overturned my first acquittal.

01:46:42.060 I was not expecting that.

01:46:44.260 And so that was a phone call from my lawyer to say, to give me the bad news and to let me

01:46:49.240 know that I had to go through yet another trial.

01:46:51.880 Because it wasn't just, like, you know, an overturn of an acquittal.

01:46:56.220 It means they sent me back to be retried again.

01:46:59.280 And so I was retried again in absentia.

01:47:02.940 They found me guilty.

01:47:05.180 And from, yeah.

01:47:07.220 And so, again, I have that phone call with my lawyer who tells me we're going to fight

01:47:11.260 it.

01:47:11.740 But I didn't know what that meant.

01:47:13.880 Like, I suddenly had to start thinking about what extradition looked like and how I was

01:47:22.220 going to, if Italy decided to, you know, if the Supreme Court in Italy was going to confirm

01:47:30.120 that conviction, how I was going to turn myself in to the local authorities and make a case

01:47:37.420 for, at the very least, serving my time in the U.S. so that my family, it wasn't such

01:47:41.560 a burden on my family.

01:47:45.760 I was living, yes, a lot of people, like, think, you know, four years in prison.

01:47:50.240 But it was really eight years of waiting to know if I was allowed to live again.

01:47:56.620 Yeah.

01:47:57.160 So.

01:47:57.700 Wow.

01:47:58.800 What a pur, I mean, just what a purgatory for, like, your growth and for your humanity.

01:48:03.760 Yeah, my 20s were this.

01:48:06.360 Yeah.

01:48:06.680 Yeah, and I'm only 32 now, so it's weird, like, I'm weirdly very, very young in the real

01:48:13.600 world, which means that I'm, like, stumbling around and trying to, like, figure out what

01:48:19.440 being a real person is like when.

01:48:22.280 There's not much left of being a real person, so.

01:48:24.600 But, like, you know, yeah.

01:48:25.880 But then in other ways, I think we might be on a horizon of realizing the value of humanity

01:48:30.440 again in some ways, and that's what I hope a lot of times.

01:48:32.620 Yeah, well, I love what you're doing, because it sounds like you're coming from this, like,

01:48:37.340 optimistic place of, like, if I just sit with someone, we'll just be humans together.

01:48:43.160 Yeah.

01:48:43.260 Isn't that great?

01:48:44.460 Did everyone forget how cool that is?

01:48:46.700 And, like, I love that.

01:48:48.340 Oh, thanks.

01:48:48.900 That's a really, really useful thing to do.

01:48:52.320 Yeah.

01:48:52.900 I think we try our best.

01:48:54.980 You know, we learn as we go in here, you know.

01:48:57.520 Yeah.

01:48:57.860 We definitely try our best.

01:48:59.180 Have you had any.

01:48:59.980 But thank you for saying that.

01:49:00.900 Yeah.

01:49:01.140 Have you had any contact with Meredith's family?

01:49:04.360 This is another question that I get a lot of.

01:49:06.740 The answer to that question is, once again, it's complicated.

01:49:10.980 I've written and sent a letter to them many years back, but what I have heard from their

01:49:19.420 lawyer and, like, in general is that they are not in a place to want to talk to me.

01:49:28.800 Like, in these situations, you have people who have gone through a terrible trauma, and

01:49:34.900 they have an experience of me that, like, just the very being of me is a trigger for

01:49:41.280 that trauma.

01:49:41.920 Yeah, it might just remind them of it, and there's nothing wrong with that or anything.

01:49:45.200 And so, like, when it comes to the Kircher family, I firmly believe that, like, they

01:49:49.840 have, like, if I, it's not my position to force myself on them to be understood by them.

01:49:56.220 If and when they want to have a relationship with me, I'm ready.

01:50:03.400 Um, and I'm, I'm, I'm ready to answer every hard question that they might have.

01:50:10.400 Um, I do think this is a, this is a whole thing about restorative justice, right?

01:50:15.040 It's, like, coming to see how, like, how, how a crime, Meredith's murder, has impacted

01:50:21.360 so many people, and, like, finding that common ground and finding a reconciliation and understanding.

01:50:27.420 But, like, you have to be ready and willing to, like, come to the table with that goal

01:50:33.120 in mind.

01:50:34.120 And until that happens, like, I can't force myself on them.

01:50:37.740 Yeah, it's funny.

01:50:38.260 A lot of times in my own, like, uh, issues and stuff, if I'm not, like, I want to do something,

01:50:42.620 but I'm not ready, I'll pray for, like, willingness, you know?

01:50:45.440 It's, like, I'll pray for, like, the step before the capability, you know?

01:50:49.060 It's, like, just, you know, God, make me willing to do this, because I want to.

01:50:54.080 I'm having trouble getting to the action.

01:50:55.920 Yeah, that's the biggest, like, I think that's the biggest challenge, is, like, a lot of

01:50:59.460 people, like, they could do it, if only they could, like, bring themselves to do it, you

01:51:05.060 know?

01:51:05.780 Did you, uh, did you have faith?

01:51:08.200 Did you struggle with faith?

01:51:09.180 Did that come in your, uh, in your sentence at any point, like, when you were by yourself

01:51:13.440 or when you were in prison?

01:51:14.840 So, I am an atheist, and, um...

01:51:18.880 Boo!

01:51:20.980 No, it's okay.

01:51:22.060 Everybody has their own experience with...

01:51:23.720 I'm, I'm, I'm very hopeful that, I'll try my best to have faith, you know?

01:51:27.940 Okay.

01:51:28.800 Um, yeah, that's, that's cool.

01:51:31.040 Yeah, and so is yours.

01:51:32.080 Yours is okay, it's, it's okay.

01:51:35.860 Well...

01:51:37.220 No, it's good.

01:51:38.320 You're, like, sad a little, though.

01:51:39.760 Sorry.

01:51:40.360 I'm a little sad, probably, but it's probably just because of my own thoughts.

01:51:43.580 It's probably somehow I'm projecting my own stuff.

01:51:45.680 Yeah, I wonder, like, what atheist, like, what that word means to you.

01:51:49.940 Because, um, I, I clearly do a lot of, or clearly, I guess maybe not clearly, um, I do

01:52:00.980 a lot of self-reflection, reflection, I do a lot of meditation, I do a lot of thinking

01:52:04.500 about my place in the world and my impact on, on people in the world.

01:52:08.460 Um, and those are all things that really, that are really important to me, and one thing

01:52:14.600 that's also really important to me is, like, one thing that's very real to me is that I

01:52:20.540 can't rely on the universe to, like, be good.

01:52:26.940 Right.

01:52:27.240 Right, like, for me, there is no, like, the universe is good or bad.

01:52:31.880 It's not any of those things.

01:52:34.120 All it is, is existence.

01:52:36.620 Existence is what it is.

01:52:37.720 It's neutral, um, and we happen to be conscious, and we are, we have concepts of, like, what

01:52:46.260 just, what makes something good or, or bad, like human suffering, bad, bad for me, bad

01:52:52.040 for you, bad for everyone.

01:52:53.280 We know that that's bad.

01:52:54.580 Yeah.

01:52:55.000 Um, but it's not because it's inherently bad.

01:52:57.320 It's not because someone decided or decreed that it was bad, or that the dogma decreed that

01:53:01.480 it was bad.

01:53:01.960 It's just, that's how we experience things.

01:53:04.320 Right.

01:53:04.600 We know it's bad.

01:53:05.360 We know it's bad, and we don't want that to happen to someone.

01:53:08.860 We wouldn't want it, we wouldn't wish it upon ourselves.

01:53:10.740 And, like, so when I'm finding, when I'm trying to find, you know, guidance or, or when I'm

01:53:19.140 looking for that willingness to do something, it's, it's motivated with the understanding

01:53:25.040 that, like, the only thing that can make, the only thing I can do in my, like, smallness

01:53:31.200 and aloneness is try to, like, make connections with human beings and try to bring, try to,

01:53:38.880 like, make as less suffering as possible and, and as much, like, joy and growth as possible.

01:53:44.580 And, and I have to find that in myself.

01:53:47.420 And I know that, like, no one's writing me.

01:53:50.120 No one's, like, telling me to do that.

01:53:52.100 It's really just me.

01:53:53.200 Right.

01:53:53.420 It's just me in my head alone, figuring that out for myself.

01:53:55.960 And that's a responsibility that I have to take.

01:53:58.520 You know, I feel responsible because I'm aware of myself.

01:54:02.520 Right.

01:54:02.980 And being aware of myself is, like, the first thing that I have to do as a conscious being.

01:54:08.600 Yeah.

01:54:09.460 And it's still, it's a fight for good.

01:54:11.780 It's like we're on this, it's this equal, there's no judgment from the universe against

01:54:15.500 us, you're saying.

01:54:16.540 And it's, but we do know right from wrong.

01:54:18.460 We do know how it feels anyway.

01:54:19.820 Mm-hmm, yeah, and on our, and on our human scale, it's important.

01:54:23.300 It's important.

01:54:23.860 But in the big, grand scheme of things, it's not.

01:54:26.280 Yeah.

01:54:26.500 But for us, it is.

01:54:27.980 And, like, just because something in the big, grand scheme of things is utterly meaningless

01:54:32.180 doesn't mean that it isn't meaningful to us right now.

01:54:35.320 Right now.

01:54:35.400 Because this is the level that we live on.

01:54:37.340 Right, right, right.

01:54:37.680 We don't live on cosmic levels.

01:54:39.700 Right, right.

01:54:40.300 We don't live kind of, yeah, there's not this eternal, there's, it's right now.

01:54:44.300 Yeah, right now.

01:54:45.160 Well, I think the one thing that's, that, I mean, I certainly agree with it.

01:54:48.560 It's like, yeah, we, I think that good is infectious, you know?

01:54:52.800 Okay, yeah.

01:54:53.640 And so it's like, yeah, like, that it's a battle.

01:54:57.900 Yeah, it is a battle.

01:54:58.780 It's like, I can choose to battle for good or to not, you know?

01:55:03.200 And I think we're trying our best.

01:55:04.300 The one thing that I would push back on that is I don't like the term battle.

01:55:07.940 Okay.

01:55:08.180 Because battle means that there's an enemy.

01:55:10.300 And like, I think that it's very, very easy to fall into this mindset when you have an enemy that you then find a target to, to be the, like, the object of your enemy.

01:55:24.480 Whereas for me, I look at it as you're building something, you're creating something, we're always creating something.

01:55:31.320 And what are you creating?

01:55:32.360 What are you, what do you put, what energy are you putting into it?

01:55:34.980 It's going to exist in the world and you're creating it.

01:55:38.200 What is it going to do?

01:55:39.360 And I will say this, and I will, my last move will be that you would know that from personal experience a lot better than I would.

01:55:47.840 How that, you know, how when somebody, when there's a lot of, you know, energy that it can be targeted at someone.

01:55:54.600 So.

01:55:55.060 Yeah, it's kind of like that blame or forgiveness thing.

01:55:57.540 It's like, I'm not even, I'm, that's not even like what I'm thinking about.

01:56:00.640 I'm thinking about like, what am I putting out into the world and, and what is its impact?

01:56:04.700 Yeah.

01:56:04.860 It's a drop in an ocean.

01:56:05.900 Like, what is that ripple effect?

01:56:07.600 Yeah.

01:56:07.980 So.

01:56:08.980 I think we, I think we certainly agree on that.

01:56:11.740 My last question is, how much did the whole, did it all cost?

01:56:15.800 It must have, I can't even imagine the cost of all the, the attorneys and everything.

01:56:19.020 I don't even, I could not even tell you how much it costs because it costs that much.

01:56:23.080 Wow.

01:56:23.560 Like I, my, my, what my family paid, what I've had to pay, what I'm continuing to have

01:56:30.500 to pay.

01:56:32.240 And for something that's not even your fault.

01:56:34.220 No.

01:56:35.780 Wow.

01:56:37.100 That's a lot of power.

01:56:38.180 It's a lot of power to stand up in the face of all those different things and to, you know,

01:56:43.260 to, you know, be someone who still wants to help others, you know, or still, or just

01:56:50.700 wants, I don't know.

01:56:51.800 Uh, it's impressive.

01:56:52.920 It's, it's very interesting.

01:56:54.420 It helps me.

01:56:55.340 Yeah.

01:56:56.060 I mean, like, I can't say that like me helping others doesn't help me because along the way

01:57:01.840 I'm finding meaning.

01:57:03.000 Yeah.

01:57:03.540 Like I'm having that connection.

01:57:04.860 And so as much as that person is having that connection with me, I'm having that connection

01:57:08.420 with that person.

01:57:12.500 Tell me like three things that you really love about Chris and then we'll be done.

01:57:16.140 No.

01:57:17.200 Yeah.

01:57:18.000 Cause you're like taking notes.

01:57:19.880 Well, we started on it.

01:57:21.800 I want to finish.

01:57:22.920 And I think it's very sweet that he's just been patient and been here and so I want him

01:57:26.060 to feel a part of it.

01:57:27.140 So, um, so three things that are things that I love about Chris.

01:57:31.680 Yeah.

01:57:32.080 Um, Chris is willing to confront what he's afraid of.

01:57:36.840 Um, Chris is a excellent communicator and they're going to say chef.

01:57:43.380 Sorry.

01:57:43.740 Well, he also is an excellent chef, but like he, um, but he's an excellent communication

01:57:48.240 is really important to me.

01:57:49.640 And I think that like communication hasn't really been one of those things that the grander

01:57:56.020 culture has instilled in, in, in boys.

01:58:00.260 It's not something that like we hold up as something that's very important for young men

01:58:05.060 is to have like an, an, an emotional intelligence that they are able to communicate.

01:58:09.480 Young girls are like from a very young age.

01:58:12.020 We're taught to like get up in each other's business and be like, oh, do you have a crush

01:58:15.640 on this guy?

01:58:16.100 Well, why do you have a crush on that guy?

01:58:17.620 And that is like brute practicing emotional intelligence.

01:58:22.520 And it's less so something that young men are encouraged to do, but like he is very,

01:58:27.720 very emotionally intelligent and very good at communicating when like he understands that

01:58:33.100 I experienced the world.

01:58:34.360 Sometimes I experienced the world and I experienced emotions in a different way than he does,

01:58:37.720 but he doesn't hold that against me.

01:58:38.920 He understands that like, I just experienced the world as I do.

01:58:42.140 He experiences the world as he does.

01:58:43.600 And we both appreciate those differences.

01:58:45.620 Like for instance, a really good example, Chris looks at boobs and he can't stop looking

01:58:52.700 at boobs, you know, like he just like looks at mannequins.

01:58:56.120 He looks at like, he looks at anything that remotely resembles a boob and he just kind of

01:59:00.200 can't help himself.

01:59:01.100 Like he just kind of gets distracted and it's like, you know, it's just, it's like so real.

01:59:06.520 And like, it's something that I like, I don't have a comparison.

01:59:09.760 It's not like I look at like guys' shoulders and go, I'm so distracted right now.

01:59:13.820 Like I just don't experience that.

01:59:15.560 But I appreciate that he's able to communicate with me what that's like and I can communicate

01:59:21.100 something on the other end.

01:59:22.200 Right.

01:59:22.220 Because otherwise guys are sneaking around the mall trying to hide behind a plane and look

01:59:25.300 at some kids.

01:59:25.520 Yeah.

01:59:25.640 And you don't have to.

01:59:26.320 And then the life's arguing with them and then that's it.

01:59:28.080 And they're fighting.

01:59:28.340 Yeah.

01:59:28.560 And like, I kind of like now, now that I'm in on it, like we're kind of in on it together.

01:59:34.360 And I'm like, are you looking at that, those boobs?

01:59:36.440 And I'm like, and he's like, yeah.

01:59:37.440 And I'm like, okay, I see you.

01:59:40.000 You're like, I'll be over here knitting a cloak.

01:59:41.840 I'm gonna let you have your bed in a couple of tits, guys.

01:59:46.080 Amanda, what's your middle name?

01:59:47.600 Marie.

01:59:48.100 Amanda Marie Knox.

01:59:49.100 Thanks for being here today.

01:59:50.400 And people can check out your podcast, The Truth About True Crime.

01:59:55.120 That's right.

01:59:55.720 Right.

01:59:56.200 Thank you.

01:59:57.140 Yeah.

01:59:57.580 Thank you so much.

01:59:58.340 Really appreciate it.

01:59:58.980 Of course.

01:59:59.460 Thank you.

01:59:59.980 Yeah.

02:00:00.200 Now I'm just floating on the breeze And I feel I'm falling like these leaves

02:00:06.380 I must be cornerstone

02:00:09.680 Oh, but when I reach that ground I'll share this peace of mind I found

02:00:17.100 I can feel it in my bones

02:00:20.600 But it's gonna take a little time

02:00:26.260 For me to set that parking brake And let myself unwind

02:00:32.440 Shine that light on me

02:00:36.880 I'll sit and tell you my stories

02:00:42.560 Shine on me

02:00:47.560 And I will find a song

02:00:51.780 I will sing it

02:00:53.320 Just go

02:00:54.740 And now I've been moving way too fast

02:01:02.680 On the runaway train

02:01:04.140 With a heavy load of my

02:01:05.840 Ladies and gentlemen, I'm Jonathan Kite

02:01:11.720 And welcome to Kite Club

02:01:13.040 A podcast where I'll be sharing thoughts on things like current events

02:01:16.700 Stand-up stories

02:01:17.920 And seven ways to pleasure your partner

02:01:20.220 The answer may shock you

02:01:22.140 Sometimes I'll interview my friends

02:01:24.140 Sometimes I won't

02:01:25.480 And as always, I'll be joined by the voices in my head

02:01:28.980 You have three new voice messages

02:01:31.840 A lot of people are talking about Kite Club

02:01:34.840 I've been talking about Kite Club for so long

02:01:37.660 Longer than anybody else

02:01:39.280 So great

02:01:40.080 Hi, sweetheart

02:01:41.960 Here's a deal

02:01:43.100 Anyone who doesn't listen to Kite Club

02:01:45.580 Is a dodgy bloody wanker

02:01:47.620 Do you know what I mean?

02:01:48.320 Hi, I'll take a quarter pounder with cheese

02:01:51.600 And a McFlurry

02:01:52.640 Sorry, sir, but our ice cream machine is broken

02:01:54.500 Oh, no

02:01:56.420 I think Tom Hanks just butt-dialed me

02:01:59.460 Anyway

02:01:59.920 First rule of Kite Club is

02:02:01.860 Tell everyone about Kite Club

02:02:03.580 Second rule of Kite Club is

02:02:05.520 Tell everyone about Kite Club

02:02:07.760 Third rule

02:02:08.540 Like and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts

02:02:11.160 Or watch us on YouTube, yeah?

02:02:13.780 And yes, don't worry

02:02:14.820 My Brad Pitt impression will get better

02:02:16.860 Thanks for listening to Kite Club

02:02:18.860 I'll see you next time

02:02:20.140 I'll see you next time

02:02:20.700 I'll see you next time

02:02:21.240 I'll see you next time

This Past Weekend with Theo Von - August 23, 2019

Amanda Knox ｜ This Past Weekend #225

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