This Past Weekend with Theo Von - E311 Tony Mandarich

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00:00:43.240 Today's guest was the second overall draft pick in the 1989 NFL draft.

00:00:50.920 And maybe the largest offensive lineman that people had ever seen.

00:00:53.720 He was on the cover of Sports Illustrated.

00:00:56.060 He's lived many lives, to say the least.

00:00:59.880 We're going to hear a lot about that.

00:01:01.360 And he's transformed his own life through the power of recovery.

00:01:06.120 He is a retired athlete, motivational speaker, and photographer, Mr. Tony Mandarich.

00:01:15.160 I'm going to set that parking brake and let myself unwind.

00:01:20.820 Shine that light on me.

00:01:26.220 I'll sit and tell you my stories.

00:01:31.480 Shine on me.

00:01:34.480 I'm not proud of a lot of things I've done.

00:01:50.760 Thanks for coming, man.

00:01:51.520 My friend Morgan Murphy, do you know who she is?

00:01:53.200 She is a writer.

00:01:55.700 She messaged you.

00:01:56.540 I think she said it on Instagram one time.

00:01:57.860 Right.

00:01:58.040 That's what she said.

00:01:58.660 But she messaged me yesterday.

00:01:59.520 She's like, oh, I'm so excited for this.

00:02:01.940 I'm such a big Tony fan.

00:02:03.160 I'm a huge fan of his.

00:02:04.380 Yeah.

00:02:04.660 She's a comedian and a writer.

00:02:06.160 And she's like, I'm such a huge fan of his photography.

00:02:08.120 Right.

00:02:08.480 Yeah.

00:02:08.740 She, I want to say about six months ago, messaged me or had commented on a DM on Instagram.

00:02:14.660 Uh, and then I kind of looked her up cause I saw she had that seal like that she was who

00:02:20.540 she was.

00:02:21.180 Right.

00:02:21.540 So I was like, well, I just want to, cause I didn't know who she was.

00:02:24.360 So I checked it out and I was, I was like, oh, you know, she's a comedian and she'd been

00:02:28.400 to, I think 10 p.m.

00:02:29.600 Prove and all that stuff.

00:02:30.720 Yeah.

00:02:30.880 Yeah.

00:02:31.060 She's a, yeah.

00:02:31.740 She goes over to the comedy store.

00:02:33.060 A lot of where I know her from, and then she's written on a bunch of shows, but it was

00:02:36.620 just, you know, it's just interesting to people that will reach out when you have a certain

00:02:40.140 guest coming on.

00:02:41.020 Right.

00:02:41.080 Right.

00:02:41.260 And it always, uh, it always surprises me.

00:02:44.660 Yeah.

00:02:44.860 I told her if she's ever through Phoenix.

00:02:46.480 Yeah.

00:02:46.620 That's what she said.

00:02:47.180 She's like, she just hasn't been, I guess.

00:02:48.620 That's what she said.

00:02:49.320 She's like, tell him I plan on, on seeing him at some point.

00:02:52.380 Cool.

00:02:52.860 Um, yeah, she's definitely a worthwhile, I mean, a lot of people are worthwhile.

00:02:56.380 Yeah.

00:02:56.800 She seems very straight up, very authentic.

00:02:59.520 She's cool chick.

00:03:00.220 Yeah.

00:03:00.680 And or cool, whatever she is, man.

00:03:02.140 I mean, I know she's a woman, but yes, cool person.

00:03:04.700 Um, OBGTQIN.

00:03:06.620 Yeah.

00:03:07.940 I don't know what letters to say these days.

00:03:09.880 My friend juggles now and he said he feels left out.

00:03:12.300 So I want to call him the alphabet.

00:03:14.020 Yeah.

00:03:14.180 I know.

00:03:14.780 And that's not referring to her.

00:03:15.940 I'm just talking about.

00:03:17.100 Oh, in general, it's hard.

00:03:18.480 Can you imagine going to get it your license now?

00:03:20.320 Uh-uh.

00:03:20.560 Male, female, Hispanic.

00:03:22.080 Ghost.

00:03:22.740 Right?

00:03:23.320 Yeah.

00:03:24.100 I'm like, I'm the alphabet.

00:03:25.460 Somebody, yeah.

00:03:27.280 But the thing is, it's just going to add up until it's just everything.

00:03:30.080 And then it's going to come full circle.

00:03:31.580 It's so stupid.

00:03:32.760 Some things are getting absolutely ridiculous, man.

00:03:36.000 You live, where do you live these days?

00:03:37.800 I'm in Scottsdale.

00:03:39.000 Oh, nice.

00:03:39.400 How do you like it over there?

00:03:40.320 I love it.

00:03:40.820 I've been there since 04, 04, 05.

00:03:43.440 And what spurred the move over to there?

00:03:46.060 You know, it was kind of, I had a golf course in Canada where I grew up.

00:03:52.760 And it was family owned.

00:03:54.240 I owned half of it.

00:03:55.100 And I was just tired of, you know how family businesses can go awesome or they can go,

00:04:01.580 hmm, not so good.

00:04:04.020 So it didn't go like really bad, but it wasn't like, I wasn't, I guess, receiving what I was

00:04:11.020 promised I was going to receive.

00:04:13.340 Okay.

00:04:13.600 So I was kind of like, instead of making a big deal about it, I'm just going to get

00:04:18.240 out of the business and instead of giving them a two week notice, I gave them a nine

00:04:21.180 month notice.

00:04:21.860 Okay.

00:04:22.300 Just so, you know, they could figure things out and stuff.

00:04:24.880 Oh yeah.

00:04:25.120 Like a baby.

00:04:25.940 Yeah.

00:04:26.340 Right.

00:04:26.740 I mean, it's plenty of time to figure stuff out.

00:04:28.660 Yeah.

00:04:29.040 I'm not just going to leave them hanging.

00:04:31.160 So I literally sat at the kitchen table and I was like, if I could do anything anywhere,

00:04:37.240 where would it be?

00:04:38.640 And it was photography and it would be in the Southwest.

00:04:40.820 Southwest, although I didn't know if I was going to go to Nevada, Cali, Utah, or Arizona.

00:04:48.320 You know, I think Arizona was the pole for some reason, probably because of Sedona.

00:04:52.920 Yes.

00:04:53.220 Even though I don't, I mean, I'm only an hour and a half from Sedona.

00:04:55.420 A lot of seancers up there.

00:04:56.300 A lot of wizards.

00:04:56.660 Yeah.

00:04:56.760 A lot of crystals.

00:04:58.440 Yeah.

00:04:58.840 A lot of crystals.

00:04:59.560 Oh, it's, it's not crazy in Sedona to drive by a woman's house and see her charging her

00:05:03.740 crystals out in the, in the yard.

00:05:05.600 Right.

00:05:05.860 Right.

00:05:06.060 On the full moon.

00:05:06.860 Right.

00:05:07.040 She's putting all, she's wheel bearing them out there to charge up.

00:05:09.640 Yeah.

00:05:09.780 Yeah.

00:05:09.980 Yeah.

00:05:10.380 Yeah.

00:05:10.460 It's, um, it's probably my favorite place on the planet, but the crystal stuff, it doesn't

00:05:15.820 even freak me out.

00:05:16.540 It just makes me kind of go, whatever.

00:05:19.000 Yeah.

00:05:19.660 Then that's the side of this, right?

00:05:21.780 I'm like, cool.

00:05:24.180 Whatever gets you through it.

00:05:26.100 Exactly.

00:05:26.680 It really is.

00:05:27.860 Because what works for me may not work for them.

00:05:29.680 Yeah.

00:05:30.100 Right.

00:05:30.320 It's kind of amazing how there's so many different, like, um, whether it be relics or, uh, deities

00:05:38.340 and there's so many different avenues for people to find, uh, comfort.

00:05:42.380 Yeah.

00:05:43.280 Yeah.

00:05:43.520 I mean, yeah, there is, there's, and then sometimes they're like, I do, I used to do

00:05:49.840 a lot more than I do now, but I used to do a lot of ritualistic things.

00:05:53.120 Maybe I shouldn't say ritualistic, but just stuff like I would always tie my left shoe

00:05:58.320 before I would tie my right.

00:05:59.480 I would always put my left shoe on before my right shoe, like before a game or just

00:06:03.260 day-to-day living.

00:06:05.660 And then I forced myself to break that.

00:06:08.040 I just said, I was like, I'm going to live wild on the edge.

00:06:12.660 I'm going to put my right shoe on first.

00:06:14.200 Oh yeah.

00:06:14.640 Yeah.

00:06:14.820 And I was like, oh, nothing happened today.

00:06:16.240 That was bad.

00:06:16.960 So I'm good.

00:06:18.140 You know, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to put this right.

00:06:21.680 Um, so you, uh, you started you.

00:06:27.700 So was it hard to leave Canada when you left Canada?

00:06:30.540 Was it tough?

00:06:32.060 When I left the golf course, when I left for school, when you left the golf course, when

00:06:36.920 you kind of was, it was Canada's awesome.

00:06:39.660 It's freaking awesome.

00:06:40.980 I love it.

00:06:41.640 I mean, you know, I, I, you know, I grew up in Canada till I was 15 and then my senior

00:06:47.180 year of high school went to Ohio for the sole purpose of besides the obvious of graduating

00:06:52.360 from high school, but to get exposure, to get a scholarship to major American college.

00:06:56.760 Cause it was easier by, if you were in the States.

00:06:58.840 Yeah.

00:06:59.200 And then it just so happened that the high school I ended up going to was in the same

00:07:02.820 town as where my brother was going to college at Kent state.

00:07:05.640 So he would become my legal guardian.

00:07:08.220 So like we had to go to court and everything.

00:07:10.060 My parents had to sign off.

00:07:11.700 Wow.

00:07:12.140 And they got you a home down there?

00:07:13.540 No, I actually ended up living with my brother.

00:07:15.600 Wow.

00:07:16.000 On a off campus apartment.

00:07:17.700 And were you guys, was that like kind of party central or you, are you so focused on that

00:07:21.460 time at football?

00:07:22.580 I was very focused, but there was, yeah, there was some partying.

00:07:26.020 Like, I mean, there was, it was the first time I ever got drunk was believe it or not

00:07:29.500 a senior high school.

00:07:30.420 Yeah.

00:07:30.680 I mean, a lot of people will surprise a lot of people.

00:07:33.520 Right.

00:07:34.160 First time I ever dabbled in weed was for my senior high school.

00:07:40.660 Yeah.

00:07:41.480 So yeah.

00:07:42.020 For some, that would almost seem a little bit late in the game.

00:07:44.500 Yeah.

00:07:44.700 Yeah.

00:07:45.260 Yeah.

00:07:45.920 What, what is your height and weight now?

00:07:47.940 What are you at now?

00:07:48.980 I'm six, five, probably about two 65, two 70.

00:07:52.460 And what were you at when you were at your maximum beefed out, you know, butcher box?

00:07:57.980 The heaviest I ever got or the biggest I ever got was like, well, I was six, six.

00:08:02.920 I was an inch taller, but the compression gravity catches up.

00:08:06.520 Oh yeah.

00:08:07.160 And God will pull you back down.

00:08:08.420 Right, right, right.

00:08:09.660 You know what I'm saying?

00:08:10.440 I'd be four foot one if that was it.

00:08:11.840 Yeah, yeah.

00:08:12.620 It's like one of those, I'm glad I didn't get what I really deserved.

00:08:15.640 Right?

00:08:15.920 Yeah.

00:08:16.640 Oh, totally, man.

00:08:17.740 But I was like 333 was the big, like off season biggest I got.

00:08:23.500 And it was like just slinging weight around heavy, but playing weight, that was not a

00:08:27.880 good playing weight.

00:08:28.880 It wasn't a good playing weight.

00:08:30.560 That's you right there.

00:08:31.380 Damn, bro.

00:08:32.320 K and AC shirt.

00:08:33.280 You were damn romantic.

00:08:33.760 Remember K and AC.

00:08:35.180 My God.

00:08:35.880 If I was a shark and I saw you on surf and I'd bite you, bro.

00:08:39.300 No homo, bro.

00:08:40.620 You know, or yes homo.

00:08:41.560 I don't know what they're doing now.

00:08:43.140 Alphabet soup.

00:08:43.700 What is it like carrying, what was it like carrying that much body weight around?

00:08:51.220 Was there anything that started to be different?

00:08:53.480 I've used steroids in myself growing up, you know, so I have some experience of what it's

00:08:57.080 like to have a body that's different than like.

00:08:59.000 What'd you take?

00:08:59.720 I took testosterone and then some other things.

00:09:03.980 I don't even know what they were.

00:09:05.180 So, but you got like, did you gain like what?

00:09:07.060 20 pounds, 30 pounds?

00:09:08.240 Yeah, probably gained 30 pounds.

00:09:09.220 Yeah.

00:09:09.360 So that's a significant amount of weight, right?

00:09:11.480 Of muscle, mostly muscle.

00:09:13.200 So, you know, that feeling, right?

00:09:15.920 Well, here's the thing in the off season, I'd be like three 33 and just to put muscle

00:09:21.200 on, put size on.

00:09:22.020 It was almost like, I don't want to say it was like bodybuilding where they have an off

00:09:24.660 season and they're putting on weight so they can cut down for a show.

00:09:28.240 So, but I would try to do all my building and my bulking in the off season, my getting

00:09:33.100 all my strength.

00:09:34.000 And then as the season got closer and I mean like 16 weeks out, we'd start running.

00:09:39.200 So, you know, as you're running, it makes sure it leans your muscles out and it's harder

00:09:44.060 to keep like that big bulk.

00:09:46.540 Yeah.

00:09:46.820 But a good like playing weight for me was like 310.

00:09:50.740 Like I, at 310, like I can honestly tell you at 310, I felt like I was 150.

00:09:56.480 Wow.

00:09:56.920 I could like run, like it was, I was like, I could stop on a dime and like, that's what

00:10:02.120 I felt like.

00:10:02.760 Yeah.

00:10:03.400 And then, you know, and you step on a scale and you're 310, but I think it's like everything

00:10:08.560 was so strong.

00:10:09.920 Like, you know, your core is strong just from heaving all that weight.

00:10:13.820 I mean, you don't even have to work your core.

00:10:15.120 Yeah.

00:10:15.480 At that point, if you're doing all the power cleans.

00:10:17.580 You've been down and pick up a hundred, a hundred pound dumbbell, it's, I mean, you're

00:10:20.080 on a light day, right?

00:10:21.120 A hundred pound dumbbell, but one fifties, one sixties, you know, right?

00:10:24.580 Yeah.

00:10:26.840 Fucking meathead here.

00:10:28.340 Oh yeah.

00:10:30.660 Those guys come up jacked up.

00:10:32.080 I'm like, I never walked like that.

00:10:34.040 You're at home, you're curling your grandparents.

00:10:36.520 Yeah.

00:10:36.740 You're just like, this is getting crazy.

00:10:39.140 I'm like, you guys need to eat a sandwich.

00:10:40.500 Do you remember the first time that you, when did you first start?

00:10:44.280 And is it okay to talk about this kind of stuff?

00:10:45.420 Absolutely.

00:10:45.740 Okay, cool.

00:10:46.340 Thank you.

00:10:46.680 If you're comfortable with it.

00:10:47.960 I am, man.

00:10:48.700 I am.

00:10:49.040 And our audience, a lot of our audiences, I mean, I don't know what, I mean, a lot of

00:10:52.780 them I think need help and, uh, but, but we all do.

00:10:56.000 And that's kind of where our audience all kind of meets each other is in that space where

00:10:59.800 it's like, we're all imperfect creatures.

00:11:02.600 Um, do you remember, uh, so the first time you ever used steroids, take me through a little

00:11:08.120 bit of that.

00:11:08.420 It was a senior, my senior year of high school in Kent, but it was, I should say, but that

00:11:14.100 sounds like I'm making an excuse for it.

00:11:16.840 It was in April slash May.

00:11:19.440 So it was like the last two years or last two months of my senior year.

00:11:24.400 So I had already signed a scholarship with Michigan state.

00:11:26.820 So football was over.

00:11:27.480 You had already been doing really well at football.

00:11:29.160 Yeah.

00:11:29.880 And, and well enough.

00:11:31.200 See, I was lucky because our team, our high school team had like five, like, like tier

00:11:36.020 one, um, recruits.

00:11:37.440 Like Maurice Tourette.

00:11:38.960 Right.

00:11:39.440 I mean, they like, you know, Ohio's like all these big schools were coming to watch those

00:11:43.060 guys and the whole plan was, well, let's keep our fingers crossed.

00:11:46.320 And they noticed me and they did.

00:11:47.920 And they did.

00:11:48.720 So the move down to America, the move to Ohio, the living with your brother, all that was

00:11:53.440 really, I mean, you guys must've been living a little bit like, wow, this is all panning

00:11:57.280 out.

00:11:57.800 Well, yeah.

00:11:58.920 Cause now you're going to, you're, well, and you put a plan together, right?

00:12:01.420 Right.

00:12:01.740 So, I mean, we literally put the plan on paper.

00:12:04.100 This is the plan and let's not continue the plan until this gets executed.

00:12:09.000 Cause if it doesn't work, then there's no reason for the other plan.

00:12:12.180 Right.

00:12:12.380 Cause I don't want to make a plan B.

00:12:14.440 Right.

00:12:15.280 Yeah.

00:12:15.480 As soon as you make plan B screwed yourself on plan A, it's like, oh, I always got this

00:12:19.780 to fall back on.

00:12:20.860 Oh, plan B has a lot of pizza in it.

00:12:22.700 Right.

00:12:23.140 I always know.

00:12:24.040 And weed apparently, you know.

00:12:25.300 Yeah.

00:12:25.540 And weed too.

00:12:26.660 Nick gets all excited when we say it, but that's only because.

00:12:30.200 But yeah, but yeah, the sole purpose of the Ohio move was literally to get a scholarship.

00:12:36.580 So you got that.

00:12:37.500 So, so right at the end of high school.

00:12:39.380 So you start, that's when you get.

00:12:40.620 That's when I started the steroids and the, and the catalyst was, um, told you about

00:12:44.680 it.

00:12:45.120 My brother.

00:12:45.740 He did.

00:12:46.100 Yeah.

00:12:46.400 He was into it.

00:12:47.220 Yeah.

00:12:47.640 Cool.

00:12:47.940 And he was, you know, my hero and, and my mentor, my little, you know, he passed away

00:12:52.600 when he was 31 from cancer.

00:12:53.900 Oh, I was in like 93, 1993, February 8th of 93.

00:12:57.940 And, uh, but you know, I'm sorry to hear that, man.

00:13:00.740 That's heartbreaking.

00:13:01.300 Yeah.

00:13:01.620 It was, you know, and, and, you know, it was like the toughest part about that is I was

00:13:06.300 like, so in the bag, messed up with alcohol and painkillers at that time.

00:13:10.900 Um, you know, it's like, I wasn't there sober.

00:13:12.920 Right.

00:13:13.260 Right.

00:13:13.700 You weren't that present self that you've been like, oh man.

00:13:17.240 Yeah.

00:13:17.660 But you know, it's like there's tools to deal with that stuff, you know, and stuff and I've

00:13:22.360 dealt with it and I'm, I'm good with it, you know?

00:13:24.380 And, but, uh, what was he like?

00:13:26.380 What was he like your brother?

00:13:27.280 Sorry to interrupt you.

00:13:27.920 He was, he was the best.

00:13:29.820 Yeah.

00:13:30.020 Yeah.

00:13:30.380 He was the best.

00:13:31.160 He, he taught me so many things like he taught me so many things that, and, and did so many

00:13:36.660 things that today would be considered abuse, you know, um, he made me, I remember one time

00:13:44.920 it was like a Friday, I already got the scholarship and everything.

00:13:47.340 And it was a Friday we were working out and so I'm a high school senior.

00:13:52.140 He's a college senior and he's working out with his lifting partner.

00:13:56.280 Who's a bodybuilder and this is in Kent and Kent at that time was a really small town.

00:14:00.520 And, um, I was just gassed.

00:14:03.960 I was tired and I was like, you know what?

00:14:05.800 I, I, I'm just going to chill today.

00:14:07.520 I'm not going to work out.

00:14:08.560 Um, but I got to go to the gym because he's my ride home.

00:14:12.400 Oh yeah.

00:14:13.580 And the gym from the high school was like walking distance and the walk back to the apartments

00:14:17.720 was like two, three miles.

00:14:19.120 Hey, I mean, it's not like it's not walking distance, but huge snowstorm.

00:14:22.820 Right.

00:14:23.200 Oh yeah.

00:14:24.060 And, and I was like, I'm just not going to lift.

00:14:27.580 And, and I could see them both like shocked and cause I loved lifting, but I was tired

00:14:34.400 and they frigging ripped into me.

00:14:38.440 Like it was, I mean, it was life changing.

00:14:41.140 It was life changing because they were like Tony Robbins.

00:14:44.080 Yeah.

00:14:44.200 No, they, no, that would have been nice.

00:14:47.080 Tony Montana.

00:14:47.800 Yeah.

00:14:50.440 Yeah, exactly.

00:14:51.580 Okay.

00:14:51.920 Yeah.

00:14:53.420 Say, yeah.

00:14:54.240 Say hello.

00:14:55.240 Um, they, uh, they were like, you think fucking, uh, you know, you know, John Smith, who's at

00:15:04.780 Michigan state right now in his third year is going to, you know, not take it easy on you

00:15:09.440 when you get there, you're going to knock your, you know, what off when you get there, he's

00:15:13.480 like, they're like, cause I think that they thought, and, and maybe I did, or maybe it

00:15:18.420 seemed that way that I thought that, okay, well I got the scholarship already.

00:15:21.620 I'm good.

00:15:22.420 You know, I can chill now.

00:15:23.520 And I never really was like that, but they really were like, you know, staying on top

00:15:30.240 of you.

00:15:30.480 Yeah.

00:15:30.740 Which is good.

00:15:31.660 Right.

00:15:31.940 I think where today it'd be like, Oh, you're pushing somebody too much.

00:15:34.840 It's like, no, look, it's support.

00:15:36.020 I've looked at it like they were supporting me.

00:15:37.980 I had to walk home in that blizzard.

00:15:40.880 Oh man.

00:15:42.180 I'm so glad it happened.

00:15:43.660 Oh, I'll run a four, one in a blizzard.

00:15:47.560 With the wind behind you.

00:15:48.740 Oh yeah, dude.

00:15:49.020 With the wind behind you.

00:15:49.760 I run about a four 50 or four 50 or four.

00:15:52.920 I run about a four, one 20.

00:15:55.400 Five 20.

00:15:55.840 So it's an eight, two, four.

00:15:56.980 Well, you got some momentum going.

00:15:58.240 So you're probably in the seven second mark.

00:16:00.000 Did I run a jog?

00:16:01.400 Okay.

00:16:01.780 I'll be honest with you.

00:16:02.940 I run as fast as I have to.

00:16:04.280 Dude, did you think, do you think like looking back on it that you did like, um, cause I

00:16:09.420 get curious as to like, I remember I was working at a restaurant.

00:16:11.980 They had a bus boy there and that was an older guy and he was doing steroids and it, uh, and

00:16:17.380 so we would go to the gym together and next thing you know, it was just like something we

00:16:20.740 did.

00:16:21.180 Right.

00:16:21.520 You know, and, um, and he was older than me, this guy.

00:16:24.560 So sometimes I went looking back, I wonder what I have done it if it wasn't like an older

00:16:28.680 person, if it had just been a buddy, I don't think too much on it, but sometimes I just

00:16:32.840 like to look back at like, you know, where was like the influence coming from or was

00:16:37.600 the influence coming from inside of me, like wanting something, um, different or wanting

00:16:42.620 a different experience, you know, wanting to like put anything into myself to replace

00:16:47.700 something inside of me that was missing.

00:16:49.500 Right.

00:16:49.980 Yeah.

00:16:50.620 Which is a story of our lives.

00:16:52.100 Totally.

00:16:52.740 Right.

00:16:52.980 Which later in life I can relate to.

00:16:54.620 I'm chasing something that's already inside of me.

00:16:55.940 Yeah.

00:16:56.200 But I'm looking for external answers or external things to fill that void, but really the answer

00:17:01.880 is inside of me.

00:17:02.820 Right.

00:17:03.240 Yeah.

00:17:03.480 But it doesn't feel like it is because it feels like there's nothing inside of me.

00:17:06.080 Once you get sober, clear headed and kind of can start reflecting on life as you get

00:17:10.120 older.

00:17:10.640 Yeah.

00:17:11.360 That's when, at least for me at my experiences, I start to see, I was like the dog chasing

00:17:16.500 my tail.

00:17:17.060 Yeah.

00:17:17.540 Looking for this, looking for that.

00:17:19.000 And it's like the whole answer is like with me the whole time.

00:17:21.320 Yeah.

00:17:21.620 It's just like, stop, take a look, slow down, you know, breathe.

00:17:25.760 Yeah.

00:17:26.240 But the catalyst for the actual steroid taking was I couldn't bench 315 because that's three

00:17:32.420 big plates on each side.

00:17:33.640 Oh, yeah.

00:17:34.400 But I could do 295 for like five reps, but I couldn't do 315 for one.

00:17:38.460 So it was like a psychological block.

00:17:40.060 And I got on like some really light steroids and like within two weeks I was like at three

00:17:43.680 benching like 325.

00:17:45.760 Damn.

00:17:46.280 So I was like, oh, they definitely work.

00:17:47.860 Well, we got on some Vietnamese shit one time.

00:17:49.820 I don't even think it helped me lift.

00:17:50.700 It helped me cook.

00:17:51.620 It definitely helped me.

00:17:52.900 Like I could run a walk.

00:17:53.700 Dude, I'm not even joking.

00:17:55.480 I could cook over a fire suddenly in my yard, but I could not fucking do it.

00:18:00.440 Because we got some gutter steroids that came through, man.

00:18:03.680 Like we got like bottom of the barrel.

00:18:06.720 Was it like top of it taped closed?

00:18:09.000 Yeah.

00:18:09.600 It wasn't even sealed and stuff.

00:18:12.360 I remember one time we all went to Mexico on a class trip.

00:18:15.840 So we came back, literally people would buy steroids and then put them in shampoo bottles

00:18:19.400 just kind of rinse out a little.

00:18:20.700 No, and just pour it in there.

00:18:22.660 Oh, my God.

00:18:23.020 So then for like people are just pulling up at this dude's house and just syringing out

00:18:27.120 of this, you know, head and shoulders.

00:18:28.980 Unreal.

00:18:29.460 You know?

00:18:29.860 And that's it.

00:18:30.380 I mean, it got you.

00:18:31.200 It got you both of those.

00:18:32.400 Not quite pharmaceutical.

00:18:33.860 Great.

00:18:34.180 No, no, no.

00:18:35.920 Holy smokes.

00:18:36.820 But yeah, we had some of the cleanest muscles in town.

00:18:38.640 Right?

00:18:38.940 We'll say that.

00:18:40.200 Well, you're willing to go to any lengths, right?

00:18:41.800 Oh, totally, man.

00:18:42.460 That's the question.

00:18:43.500 It's like.

00:18:44.020 I really was.

00:18:45.040 Yeah.

00:18:45.380 And so was I.

00:18:46.060 And I am today, too, in certain areas of my life.

00:18:49.700 Yeah.

00:18:49.780 But it was like, I'm going to do whatever I got to do to be the best player I can be.

00:18:56.080 Within the rules.

00:18:57.980 Right.

00:18:58.840 But steroids were breaking the rules.

00:19:01.760 So those were within the rules at the time.

00:19:03.620 No, no.

00:19:04.000 They were breaking the rules.

00:19:05.060 Oh, they were?

00:19:05.480 Yeah, they were.

00:19:06.480 And so there was a day where I had to make a conscious decision.

00:19:09.700 It's like, I'm not going to kill it.

00:19:10.580 I'm not going to sit here and lie to myself.

00:19:12.280 Because I wasn't like hooked on painkillers.

00:19:14.080 I wasn't drinking alcoholically or nothing like that at that time.

00:19:17.160 I was like, is it worth it?

00:19:20.880 And it was.

00:19:21.820 And it was.

00:19:23.240 Yeah.

00:19:23.500 I mean, looking back at everything.

00:19:25.100 And you know what?

00:19:25.780 It was worth it.

00:19:26.780 And the least amount of that worth it is monetary.

00:19:30.440 Even though it helped me make millions of dollars.

00:19:33.340 Right.

00:19:34.100 The greatest worth and value in that are the lessons learned in life from taking them.

00:19:41.540 But at the time, you didn't know that, though.

00:19:43.280 No.

00:19:43.660 Right.

00:19:44.200 But I had to make a conscious decision on, will I ever look back and regret and saying,

00:19:49.140 what could I have been?

00:19:51.140 Ah.

00:19:51.740 You know what I'm saying?

00:19:52.340 And so I was like, I'm going to go to any lengths plus.

00:19:54.720 And this is not to like, I'm not like blaming anybody.

00:19:57.600 But the atmosphere was like, you know, the end of the 70s, it happens.

00:20:02.940 This was 1983, 84.

00:20:05.360 So who won four championships in the NFL in the 70s?

00:20:08.580 Steelers.

00:20:09.500 Right.

00:20:10.000 I thought it was maybe Packers.

00:20:11.180 No.

00:20:11.720 The Steelers.

00:20:12.340 That's right.

00:20:12.660 Remember?

00:20:13.120 They won two in a row.

00:20:14.520 Was that with Bradshaw?

00:20:15.380 Yeah.

00:20:15.860 And all those guys.

00:20:17.160 And they're like, you know.

00:20:18.120 Jerry Olshansky was out there?

00:20:19.380 I don't know him, but Webster and Steve Kors and all these old linemen, they were, I mean,

00:20:26.260 all jacked up, right?

00:20:27.640 And it was obvious.

00:20:29.040 Yeah.

00:20:29.380 And I was like, in my head, and my brother kind of felt the same way, was like, the only

00:20:34.600 road to the NFL is through steroids.

00:20:37.580 Oh, interesting.

00:20:37.960 Or at least it's a spoke in the wheel.

00:20:39.920 Yeah.

00:20:40.760 And especially, I think, as a white guy, you got to get on something, you know?

00:20:44.940 For what?

00:20:46.140 I mean, just, no, just, oh, I think, no, you just got to get, if I'm a white guy, I'm

00:20:50.820 getting on steroids due to play anything.

00:20:52.340 Listen, can you imagine if someone had a drug for that?

00:20:55.360 Yeah.

00:20:55.680 Oh, man.

00:20:56.100 How rich they'd be?

00:20:57.800 Oh, yeah.

00:20:58.280 The penis bigger?

00:20:59.460 Well, hell, we sell them half of our ads.

00:21:02.640 So, yeah.

00:21:03.420 They're trying.

00:21:03.800 Give me some samples before.

00:21:05.500 We got, I'm sure we have something.

00:21:07.040 It was, like, when I say this, I say it literally, like, I try not to be in too much gray area

00:21:15.980 because that's kind of how I lived my life.

00:21:18.060 And the older I got, I started to realize I thought I had to be in gray area somewhat,

00:21:24.420 but it's not.

00:21:25.100 It's just being more tolerant and flexible of the way other people are.

00:21:28.040 But I can make it crystal clear on what I'm about and what I believe in and what I don't

00:21:34.280 believe in, and then all the variables in between.

00:21:38.280 So, I knew I was taking them.

00:21:40.300 I knew it was wrong.

00:21:41.420 I knew I was breaking the rules, whether I was taking pills and injections or both.

00:21:45.480 Right.

00:21:47.620 But I was like, I'm going to, you know, their testing was so mediocre.

00:21:52.760 Yeah.

00:21:53.020 And, you know, I think that I became kind of like a red flag to the NCAA because, like,

00:22:04.200 we did them well.

00:22:05.500 Right.

00:22:05.720 Or I should say I did them, I did them the correct way to get the most out of them.

00:22:09.420 Mm-hmm.

00:22:09.940 And I didn't, like, I held nothing back in the training.

00:22:14.740 And that was whether it was running, whether it was lifting, doesn't, and it.

00:22:18.520 Oh, I see, you didn't try to mask it.

00:22:19.960 You almost didn't even mask it.

00:22:21.120 You were doing them.

00:22:21.780 You just hit them from the test.

00:22:23.200 Right.

00:22:23.660 And I didn't, like, I didn't go around telling people.

00:22:26.340 And I always, whenever the question was asked, do you do steroids by the media?

00:22:32.400 My answer would always be like, I've never tested positive for steroids.

00:22:35.680 Right.

00:22:36.040 So, it's like, you got to be pretty dumb not to read between the lines.

00:22:39.980 Yeah, there's only two lines.

00:22:41.040 Right.

00:22:44.060 If you had a comma, there's only one.

00:22:48.300 That's really true, man.

00:22:49.720 But there's, I remember one thing that got me, I remember about, and I've just, we haven't

00:22:56.820 had anybody in here I don't think that has ever done steroids that I knew of.

00:23:00.300 So, it's like, it's just, for me, it's interesting to talk about because we talk about it on the

00:23:03.760 podcast sometimes over the years.

00:23:04.980 And so, I remember being in class one day and some kid, there was a new kid in class and

00:23:12.280 he thought, I was going through the aisles picking up people's papers or something for

00:23:16.480 the teacher.

00:23:17.040 Right, right.

00:23:17.240 And he thought I was the teacher's husband.

00:23:20.660 And I think because I'd been doing, I was suddenly like stronger.

00:23:23.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:24.540 I just looked stronger.

00:23:25.460 Right.

00:23:26.320 And, you know, and I just, you know, at that time, the thought that somebody would, you

00:23:31.560 know, I would be married to somebody that knew, first of all, that even knew mathematics as

00:23:34.760 well as this lady did.

00:23:35.900 You know, like, it almost just was flattering.

00:23:38.060 You know, like, holy shit.

00:23:39.400 You think that's my wife.

00:23:40.580 That's pretty cool.

00:23:40.800 I like the older woman.

00:23:41.920 Yeah, she drove here.

00:23:42.940 You know what I'm saying?

00:23:43.700 I'm like, this is a real lady over there.

00:23:46.280 But I just remember that one moment that's like, I don't know, I just felt like people

00:23:51.240 saw me.

00:23:51.960 I just felt more confident.

00:23:53.940 I felt stronger.

00:23:54.840 My, I just, and right, right then, man, those feelings were feelings that I never had.

00:24:00.960 Are they good or what?

00:24:02.120 Oh.

00:24:02.520 Right?

00:24:02.980 Bro, they were so good.

00:24:04.000 Right?

00:24:04.720 They were so good.

00:24:05.880 And then.

00:24:06.820 But you also did the work.

00:24:08.540 You also worked out, right?

00:24:09.420 Oh, I was, we worked out all the time.

00:24:10.920 And I, you know, dieted properly.

00:24:12.660 You know, you would get on milk thistle and all these things you would hear about to

00:24:16.380 kind of take care of yourself.

00:24:19.260 But it was definitely like, it was interesting how I went from, if you'd asked me two weeks

00:24:23.360 before, would you ever do steroids?

00:24:24.500 I'd have said, no way.

00:24:25.720 But then suddenly I was over a line.

00:24:28.260 Right.

00:24:28.960 And for me in a lot of my areas of life that, that, that became something.

00:24:33.740 Sometimes I really don't want to look at the truth that there's a lot of lines that

00:24:37.200 I've crossed in my life that I probably wish I hadn't.

00:24:41.460 You know, I remember thinking, oh, I'll never hook up with a married woman, you know,

00:24:45.140 and then cross that line.

00:24:46.400 Just like things that like, like where you're saying, like setting kind of boundaries or

00:24:50.360 who you are and things that you will and won't do.

00:24:53.400 Right.

00:24:53.580 I had those things, but I always went past them.

00:24:56.900 You broke them, yeah.

00:24:57.720 And then would live and still probably live with a ton of the shame from a lot of it.

00:25:01.060 Right.

00:25:01.360 And that's, you know, and a lot of the stuff you described, I mean, you're, it's like,

00:25:07.040 were you following me around?

00:25:08.080 Right.

00:25:08.920 It's like, you know, like, like everybody's done stuff that where they've kind of set their

00:25:13.480 boundaries or these are my code of ethics, like my personal code of ethics.

00:25:18.100 And then, you know, you cross them and, and I think when you're younger, I, at least the

00:25:24.440 majority of the people I've encountered with as far as friends and stuff, the younger you

00:25:28.460 are, the more kind of like, ah, screw it.

00:25:31.280 It's okay.

00:25:31.780 The older you get the, the road narrows and stuff that you could do a couple of years ago

00:25:37.160 or five years ago that were maybe not the most ethically, you know, be a man, stand

00:25:42.860 up and be a man, like kind of thing.

00:25:44.540 Cause standing up and being a man today is not about how big your muscles are.

00:25:48.820 Yeah.

00:25:49.500 It's about doing the right thing.

00:25:51.380 It's changed a lot.

00:25:52.120 It's changed a lot.

00:25:52.980 And, and I think, I think it's changed for the better, even though we're in a present

00:25:58.940 circumstance of debacle, it's been such a great year to watch people and how messed up

00:26:05.640 people are and, and, and to be like, man, I just want some toilet paper and it's not

00:26:11.420 even a shit disease.

00:26:12.380 Right.

00:26:12.920 Right.

00:26:13.300 And it's like, why is everybody hoarding toilet paper?

00:26:15.920 And I was like, like six rolls will last me six weeks, seven weeks.

00:26:19.960 Oh, I'm good.

00:26:20.620 Yeah.

00:26:20.740 Right.

00:26:20.940 It's like, but there's not on the, there was one March, April, it was like nothing to

00:26:24.340 get.

00:26:24.900 Yeah.

00:26:25.180 It just, it just, it was interesting to watch people panic because, you know, you're sober,

00:26:32.940 I'm sober, so we know like in a way, like I feel lucky that I had a lot of hardship

00:26:39.380 because, and the reason I feel lucky is because I've put perspective on it and I've also, the

00:26:47.600 tragedy would be if I didn't change it, if I kept living that way, well, that'd be the

00:26:52.620 tragedy.

00:26:53.020 Right.

00:26:53.580 And, but it gave me perspective to change it.

00:26:55.820 So my four years in green Bay were a train wreck and I was, there wasn't, you know,

00:27:01.660 a single day in green Bay where I was like stone cold sober.

00:27:04.960 It was either some kind of a pill in me that was anything that would alter me from the chin

00:27:09.180 up.

00:27:09.440 Right.

00:27:10.100 In my brain where I was drinking or I was doing something.

00:27:13.360 Now that doesn't mean I was sloppy down, falling down, drunk drinking, but I would need

00:27:16.920 a drink to stop the shakes and then go to practice.

00:27:19.780 Wow.

00:27:20.320 Well, it's kind of hard to pass block in the NFL period, let alone when you're half in the

00:27:24.620 bag.

00:27:25.020 Yeah.

00:27:25.540 So, you know, looking back at a lot of those things and being, going through all that pain,

00:27:32.660 like I got into so much emotional pain.

00:27:34.920 I was sick and tired of my own bullshit.

00:27:36.760 Oh man.

00:27:37.540 That's to that's, it's exactly where I'm at right now.

00:27:40.460 I'm just tired of myself.

00:27:41.400 That's when we change.

00:27:42.300 Sick of yourself.

00:27:42.800 Right.

00:27:43.400 Like literally people are like, what are you on?

00:27:45.260 And you're like, I'm on myself.

00:27:46.940 Right.

00:27:47.240 And it's fucking killing me.

00:27:49.320 Right.

00:27:49.620 Like it, people don't understand sometimes.

00:27:52.040 And that's a lot of what I think addiction is for me.

00:27:54.220 I don't even know sometimes if I've ever had a lot of chemical dependency as much as

00:27:58.740 I, the way I'm feeling affects me so heavily.

00:28:04.780 Right.

00:28:05.240 Like it's a drug.

00:28:06.700 Like to the point where it's like, and then I become addicted to it and at the same time

00:28:11.240 suffering from it.

00:28:12.240 Yeah.

00:28:12.480 And I think people sometimes can't understand some of that, like what it's like to feel

00:28:17.540 that way.

00:28:17.920 Right.

00:28:18.380 And it's, and they're like, you're a wimp or you're this man.

00:28:20.940 It's like, you think I don't want, you think I want to feel this way every day when I wake

00:28:25.620 up, you think I want to be angry or be miserable or, you know, like, no, this is something is happening

00:28:31.640 to me and it's hard to handle.

00:28:33.820 Right.

00:28:34.600 Yeah.

00:28:34.900 And, and, you know, I mean, listen, it's like, again, are you following me around?

00:28:40.060 Cause you're telling me my story, right?

00:28:41.300 It's exactly how I feel.

00:28:42.540 And I don't feel, I still get definitely times like that, but less and less.

00:28:47.840 Yeah.

00:28:48.620 And, and it'll change.

00:28:49.980 And I've been, you know, over 25 years now, almost 26 years sober.

00:28:53.820 And, but you know what?

00:28:55.620 Like the first three years were like, just like, you could have cut me off.

00:28:59.380 You could have done robbed me.

00:29:01.260 I would have been like, all right, here you go.

00:29:02.260 Cool.

00:29:02.460 Have a good day.

00:29:03.180 I was so happy not to be miserable.

00:29:05.700 Yeah.

00:29:06.060 Right.

00:29:06.900 Oh, the beginning of sobriety.

00:29:08.300 When you're like, when you see, when something happens as a perspective switch in the way you see

00:29:13.280 in the world and the way that it really is.

00:29:15.300 God, bro.

00:29:15.900 Yeah, it went, it literally, like you talked about the four or five days or two weeks before

00:29:19.960 you took the steroids.

00:29:20.780 You never thought you would take steroids.

00:29:22.640 Four days before I got sober, I never thought I'd be in a treatment center four days later.

00:29:27.060 Wow.

00:29:27.440 And that was a decision I made.

00:29:29.720 Right.

00:29:30.520 And because of the emotional pain.

00:29:32.980 And I was just looking in the mirror disgusted at what I saw.

00:29:36.500 And I was like, what a bunch of bullshit and lies and deceit and just.

00:29:42.400 And it just gets so hard.

00:29:43.600 You stack up so much stuff.

00:29:44.840 It's just too heavy.

00:29:45.900 And it's so interesting.

00:29:46.840 You had so much weight on your body, like so much.

00:29:50.320 And it was like, but then you get this relief of all of this fucking weight.

00:29:54.620 Crazy, isn't it?

00:29:55.460 Which is just almost so ironic in your, like.

00:29:57.500 It's crazy.

00:29:57.960 In your space.

00:29:58.680 And today, but in today, like, like you talk about like today's circumstance.

00:30:02.960 When I do feel the way, like, you know, if I feel I have a shitty day or it's like, like I'm sabotaging myself or whatever.

00:30:11.120 I know why it's because I'm not connected.

00:30:13.040 I'm not either talking to people or I haven't, like, for me, I haven't hit my knees in the morning and asked for help.

00:30:19.400 Well, when you're, I think that this is a powerful thing.

00:30:22.820 When you're 6'5", like now, 6'5", 265, whatever.

00:30:26.280 When you hit your knees and you are praying to the God of your belief and asking for help through the day and asking about what you can add to the stream of life instead of sucking out of the stream of life for a change.

00:30:38.060 That's a pretty humbling experience when you're that big a stature.

00:30:42.840 So, you know, I was doing that when I was 6'6", you know, playing for the Colts.

00:30:47.740 Wow.

00:30:48.000 That's 6'6", 315, 320, strong as an ox.

00:30:53.000 And it's a very humbling experience knowing how powerful you are.

00:30:57.880 Right.

00:30:58.560 And I could make stuff happen.

00:31:00.040 Like, I can make things happen by the old phrase, just grab the bull by the horns.

00:31:03.900 Just make it happen.

00:31:04.960 If you've got to step on people's toes, do it.

00:31:07.040 Just make it happen.

00:31:08.380 It's like, I don't care how you've got to block this guy.

00:31:11.300 Just don't get a penalty and block him.

00:31:13.540 I don't care if you've got to take his knees out or whatever, right?

00:31:15.380 It's like go to any lengths to protect your quarterback.

00:31:18.040 So, it's kind of like that, but it's like, you know, it's when you have that stature, that size, that power, and you're in the weight room slinging weight around and all this.

00:31:28.120 But in the morning, you know, when you get on your knees and ask for help, that's a humbling, it's a humbling act.

00:31:35.240 Yeah.

00:31:36.400 Yeah.

00:31:36.840 And, you know, it's like, it's basically saying, you know, I can't do this by myself.

00:31:41.000 I tried and almost killed myself.

00:31:43.040 Yeah.

00:31:43.560 Almost killed myself trying.

00:31:44.900 Yeah.

00:31:45.280 Because I'll never forget when I'm in the treatment center in Detroit and there was no fancy treatment center.

00:31:50.400 And this was the first time you ever went into treatment?

00:31:52.820 First time I ever went in.

00:31:53.520 So, you went in and got it.

00:31:54.360 Yeah.

00:31:54.600 I'm not going to do it again.

00:31:55.360 Right.

00:31:56.000 Yeah.

00:31:57.200 And, okay, take us there.

00:31:58.800 No, the girl, the girl, the lady counselor was our first, like, small, like, 10 people session with a counselor.

00:32:05.800 And it was all our first time with this meeting.

00:32:08.200 And she goes, so before we start, and she's like, and this isn't pointing anybody out.

00:32:13.380 She's like, this applies to everybody.

00:32:14.520 She's like, just before we start, I just want you all to know that all of your best plans of building your empires and building everything got you here in this treatment center in Detroit, Michigan.

00:32:25.300 And I can see, like, I, you know, I, 90 or whatever it is going by in the interstate.

00:32:30.500 I'm going, she's right.

00:32:32.460 And I was, like, talking about a Louisville slugger coming across your forehead going, holy shit.

00:32:37.240 That reality.

00:32:39.160 Yeah.

00:32:39.800 Yeah.

00:32:40.200 I mean, funny now wasn't funny then.

00:32:43.660 Yeah.

00:32:44.740 But I'm trying to think of some of those first moments that, you know, whenever I went into the rooms.

00:32:49.820 Because mostly I learned about recovery through my family.

00:32:52.020 I have siblings that are, you know, in and out, or been in the program.

00:32:55.700 And probably my father.

00:32:57.900 I mean, I think so many people struggle with addiction to different things.

00:33:00.880 Yeah.

00:33:01.560 But I remember getting, I remember I drove through the parking lot one night of a room that's not far from where I live.

00:33:08.180 And I was talking to my brother or something the next day.

00:33:11.400 And he said, well, you know who's not thinking about getting treatment?

00:33:14.020 And I said, he goes, I said, who?

00:33:17.660 He goes, people that aren't driving through that parking.

00:33:21.660 You know what I'm saying?

00:33:22.060 Like, not everybody's driving through the parking lot of an AA center last night.

00:33:26.000 Right.

00:33:26.140 You know what I'm saying?

00:33:26.700 Right.

00:33:26.860 There's something inside of you that's curious, that's thinking.

00:33:29.780 Like, and I think sometimes it is.

00:33:31.780 There's a magnet that's created by that program.

00:33:36.260 You know, last night I went to a meeting and I went over to a buddy's house and I got there.

00:33:41.480 And I hadn't been in probably like three months to his meeting.

00:33:44.480 And it's just like six or seven guys sitting outside by a fire.

00:33:48.300 Right.

00:33:48.420 And I get there and suddenly like I walked around the group and just hugged like every

00:33:51.840 guy there.

00:33:52.200 I know them all.

00:33:52.900 Right.

00:33:53.100 And it was funny because I just had the worst day and I get there and I was like, man,

00:33:59.520 I didn't know that I was going to hug all these guys when I got here.

00:34:02.240 I forgot that.

00:34:03.240 And they were all so excited to see me, like each individually.

00:34:05.700 We have our own little relationship.

00:34:07.260 And like, I just, I forgot that all these guys cared about me and I forgot that I cared

00:34:12.000 about them.

00:34:12.440 Like, it's just like camaraderie.

00:34:14.220 Yeah.

00:34:14.540 And unless I like the half-life or the residual effect of like care, it doesn't, the shelf

00:34:21.560 life isn't long inside of me for some long.

00:34:23.480 It's, you know, it's really, it's almost like the shelves are like at an angle.

00:34:26.660 And when somebody puts care on them, they just slide.

00:34:29.340 It just, and I don't know why.

00:34:30.860 I think it was just the way the shelves were built or something, you know, but it was just

00:34:34.740 crazy.

00:34:35.000 Cause next thing you know, it was like the best moment of my day and all these guys was like,

00:34:38.400 man, I always feel like nobody cares, but these guys care.

00:34:41.420 They all care.

00:34:42.020 And I care about them.

00:34:42.980 And I just, it just, it doesn't stick to my ribs.

00:34:47.140 Like I wish it would a lot of times.

00:34:48.800 So that's why I think some people are like, man, you chase your tail a lot.

00:34:52.780 It's like, because I forget that, that, that the tail is there.

00:34:57.620 I forget that it, how it grew.

00:34:59.160 Sometimes the tail's wagging the dog, right?

00:35:01.060 Oh, yeah.

00:35:01.620 It's like, um, I don't know.

00:35:03.580 It's just, it's, it's all fascinating, man.

00:35:05.280 The program is pretty fascinating.

00:35:06.720 You know, recovery, uh, it works.

00:35:08.920 So, so take us a little bit more.

00:35:11.020 So, so you, you have that experience with your brother kind of, and then you get into

00:35:15.040 it and then you're playing at Michigan state then.

00:35:17.940 Yep.

00:35:18.180 And you're doing this.

00:35:19.660 So at that point you're on Sarah, you're getting into it.

00:35:21.920 Yeah.

00:35:22.200 Yeah.

00:35:22.600 Yeah.

00:35:23.220 Yeah.

00:35:23.440 Like, um, my brother had got drafted in the first round of the Canadian football league.

00:35:27.560 So he went up to Edmonton.

00:35:28.780 Oh, for the Eskimos.

00:35:29.520 Yeah.

00:35:29.920 Oh, with Ricky, uh, who played up there?

00:35:31.560 Quarterback.

00:35:32.020 Uh, Warren Moon was just done.

00:35:33.740 He had come, went to Houston.

00:35:35.140 Who just played up there?

00:35:36.080 Ricky.

00:35:36.960 Uh, well.

00:35:37.860 He just played a few years ago.

00:35:38.620 Six, seven years ago.

00:35:39.400 I couldn't tell you six, seven years ago.

00:35:40.900 But it was done again.

00:35:41.980 I think it was a quarterback.

00:35:42.820 Matt Dunnigan was the quarterback when my brother played there.

00:35:45.940 But, um, and then, you know, that year he got drafted was the same year I went to Michigan

00:35:50.420 state.

00:35:50.900 Okay.

00:35:51.380 Cause he was already done with Kent state.

00:35:52.980 So was that pretty, so was that tough when he left and you're still there or it was at

00:35:57.020 that point you were off?

00:35:57.900 No, we sat down and we made a new plan.

00:36:00.140 Dang.

00:36:00.660 Because it was like, all right, this plan is executed.

00:36:03.360 Now let's make another plan.

00:36:05.200 And then, so we made a general plan.

00:36:07.580 He reached his goals to get drafted.

00:36:09.540 He obviously wanted to get drafted in the NFL, but you know, it wasn't, you know, I guess

00:36:15.020 it's a nicer man in Canada though.

00:36:16.600 They apologize.

00:36:17.320 They pick a guy up and stuff.

00:36:20.400 Yeah.

00:36:20.600 Sorry, man.

00:36:21.560 Here they're like stepping on the guy's throat.

00:36:23.420 Canada.

00:36:23.760 Some people come across the street just to apologize to you.

00:36:25.780 They didn't even do anything.

00:36:26.900 Hey, you ever been to a Tim Hortons?

00:36:28.640 Oh yeah.

00:36:29.220 It was good or what?

00:36:30.040 Yeah.

00:36:30.240 That's really, really good.

00:36:31.380 Cake donuts and stuff.

00:36:32.720 It's like, you can get a meal there.

00:36:34.440 I was like, what'd you have for dinner?

00:36:35.720 Eight chocolate donuts.

00:36:37.480 Aren't those fluffy?

00:36:38.400 You know, they're like cake donuts.

00:36:39.420 They're good.

00:36:39.820 Tim bits.

00:36:40.420 You know, those little Tim bits.

00:36:41.340 Oh yeah.

00:36:42.040 I love going into Tim Hortons.

00:36:43.600 Every time I go, people are like, what do you like to see in Canon?

00:36:45.820 I'm like Tim Hortons.

00:36:47.800 They're all a little different.

00:36:49.220 Right, right, right, right, right.

00:36:50.640 Yeah.

00:36:51.100 Oh, what's that on the roof?

00:36:52.120 A reindeer maybe.

00:36:53.560 What is it?

00:36:54.780 Oh, that's your stepdad trying to do a breaking and entering.

00:36:58.320 But no matter what, the holiday season is here and holiday shoppers are buying more stuff

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00:40:16.780 We had a question that came in.

00:40:18.220 This is a question that came in from a young man right here.

00:40:21.340 About your time at Michigan State.

00:40:23.440 You had kind of a long preamble.

00:40:24.700 For Tony is, well, first of all, I grew up in East Lansing, so I'm familiar kind of with the incredible bulk, the folklore, the story of the incredible bulk.

00:40:35.600 And, but I was curious, and I know a lot of other people are going to be asking questions about steroids and small penis things, I'm sure.

00:40:45.920 But what was the academic life of a 1980s football star like?

00:40:52.760 Did you go to class?

00:40:54.300 Did people do your work for you?

00:40:56.260 Or maybe you were really diligent in class?

00:40:59.680 I don't know.

00:41:00.700 But I suspect it was different from the stereotypical college students' experience.

00:41:08.260 That's a great question.

00:41:08.980 It is a great question.

00:41:10.140 It's a great question.

00:41:12.880 So, I mean, I'll be 100% transparent.

00:41:18.080 I went to class.

00:41:20.400 I didn't graduate.

00:41:22.600 I was like 12 credits short of graduating.

00:41:24.960 Wow.

00:41:25.200 And then I moved to Cali after the Gator Bulls, our last game.

00:41:28.540 And then I would have to go through spring semester and graduate.

00:41:31.720 And I already knew I was going to get drafted.

00:41:33.800 Okay.

00:41:35.140 So you were just saying.

00:41:35.620 I just went to Cali and went to move to Whittier, trained with my trainer, and just, it was balls to the walls for the next six months training.

00:41:43.420 What was the studying like when were you at school?

00:41:45.960 You know, it was, you know what?

00:41:50.740 I guess I'd be lying if I said there was no favoritism because there was, there wasn't favoritism.

00:41:57.280 Favoritism is not a good word.

00:41:58.280 There were certain things that were made just a little bit more convenient for us.

00:42:03.500 But it's really, at the end of the day, it comes down to what you make it.

00:42:09.200 Because if I wanted, I mean, Michigan State's known as a great agricultural school and great veterinary school.

00:42:15.620 So it, if I really applied myself, which I wish I would have, like in something like business administration or, you know, something that, that there's fundamentals of business that will be timeless.

00:42:27.220 Right.

00:42:27.520 Right.

00:42:27.640 Right.

00:42:28.160 Obviously the internet changed a lot of that, but still relationships are a fundamental of business.

00:42:32.640 Yeah.

00:42:33.320 So, but, you know, I took public relations and marketing, which is still good, even though the marketing these days is so different than the marketing would have been in the 80s.

00:42:42.340 Like print marketing and stuff.

00:42:43.920 Right, right.

00:42:44.360 You know, or public relations or whatever.

00:42:46.200 Or, but that also did help me.

00:42:48.060 A lot of formats have changed, yeah.

00:42:48.720 Yeah, but that did help me with a lot of the, you know, PR stuff with interviews and just, you know, stuff like that.

00:42:56.600 So you were going to class some.

00:42:57.720 Yeah, I mean, we had tutors at our disposal, but, you know, our, like my day would start at 7 a.m.

00:43:03.420 And, but, you know, you'd have to be at practice at 3.

00:43:06.720 And I'd have classes all the way up to like about an hour and a half before practice, classes all day before practice.

00:43:12.480 And then you'd practice for two hours and then you'd have to watch film.

00:43:15.840 And then they'd have study hall, mandatory study hall at the football facility.

00:43:20.020 Right.

00:43:20.260 So they'd have tutors come in if we wanted them and there'd be tutors available.

00:43:24.760 And then, or you could just stay in study hall like it was mandatory by the coach.

00:43:31.040 And were you a prize pig at this point?

00:43:32.580 Were you like one of like the heroes on the squad?

00:43:35.240 When I, when I went there?

00:43:36.500 Yeah.

00:43:36.760 No, I was, I was just one of the guys in this class.

00:43:40.220 There was some studs that came in my class.

00:43:42.460 Did y'all ever play against Rudy from all that movie?

00:43:44.580 No, we ain't that old.

00:43:45.920 Yeah, good.

00:43:47.700 I can't remember who they played.

00:43:49.040 Notre Dame.

00:43:49.720 That was Notre Dame.

00:43:50.560 He played for Notre Dame.

00:43:51.380 But we played Notre Dame every year.

00:43:52.720 Yeah.

00:43:53.220 But no, he was, he's, he's probably 10 years older, the next generation.

00:43:59.380 So.

00:44:00.040 So the academics were not, I mean, it wasn't like, there was no like, no freebies given.

00:44:04.500 Right.

00:44:05.020 You know, there were some.

00:44:06.720 I would always have like, I would say one course a semester that was kind of like, you

00:44:11.680 pretty much, if you attended it, you're pretty much going to pass.

00:44:14.800 Right.

00:44:14.980 It almost sounds like anybody's college experience.

00:44:17.320 I mean, I remember going in like the Greek kids always had all the tests somehow.

00:44:21.140 Right.

00:44:21.520 Right.

00:44:21.780 Like that was insane.

00:44:23.020 How the fuck does this girl just because she's kind of hot?

00:44:25.900 Right.

00:44:26.140 You know, Rebecca has the fucking test.

00:44:28.820 You know what I'm saying?

00:44:29.820 She's never done anything.

00:44:30.900 But it was crazy to have like people really studying and then you would just go over to

00:44:35.840 somebody's house night before and they would have the same.

00:44:37.980 It was just college sometimes was crazy.

00:44:40.060 I got remember getting paid by a coach one time to write papers for some of the players

00:44:44.160 even.

00:44:44.860 So I think there's always been some of that in school, you know, just like that athletes

00:44:48.580 get help.

00:44:49.580 Yeah.

00:44:50.280 But I think they should because their time is taken up with practice too.

00:44:54.580 Right.

00:44:55.120 And so that being said, their time is taken up with practice.

00:44:58.320 Plus, how much revenue does that sport bring into that school?

00:45:01.500 So and that's not saying, hey, look, the other sports don't matter.

00:45:04.600 Yes, they matter.

00:45:05.300 But a lot of those other sports at that school or any school wouldn't exist.

00:45:09.340 Like, I'm not talking about basketball.

00:45:10.900 I'm talking about.

00:45:12.100 Yeah.

00:45:12.340 I'm not even going to say it because I don't want to offend it.

00:45:14.100 I'm not going to say it.

00:45:15.180 Yeah.

00:45:16.040 I'm not going to say anything.

00:45:18.180 Between titles eight and ten.

00:45:19.600 Right.

00:45:20.560 And it's like, it's like, you know, I respect anybody that wants to compete and do something

00:45:24.660 that they love to do.

00:45:25.500 But the money comes from that.

00:45:26.860 That's where a lot of the revenue comes from.

00:45:28.080 And in Michigan State, it's football and basketball.

00:45:29.800 Right.

00:45:30.220 So.

00:45:31.120 Which, by the way, they beat Duke yesterday.

00:45:32.920 Did they?

00:45:33.200 Yeah.

00:45:33.740 I didn't see that.

00:45:34.180 I saw Kentucky lost last night, I think, to Kansas.

00:45:36.580 Did, was there an opportunity for you to play basketball at some point?

00:45:43.080 Seriously?

00:45:43.800 Yeah.

00:45:44.000 No.

00:45:46.000 They never said, hey, guy.

00:45:48.140 I would have.

00:45:49.580 I would have said, hey, guy.

00:45:51.180 Intramural, maybe.

00:45:52.300 Oh, really?

00:45:53.160 I wasn't the last guy picked in intramural teams.

00:45:56.720 But, no.

00:45:57.520 Michigan State, like, they were, I mean, Magic Johnson had just left there.

00:46:00.820 Wow.

00:46:01.440 Like, three, four years prior.

00:46:03.540 They were, like, stacked.

00:46:05.000 And they were, I mean, that's big-time basketball.

00:46:07.640 Yeah.

00:46:08.080 I mean, they're good.

00:46:09.280 I mean, you know, Indiana's big-time basketball, too.

00:46:12.820 Because at that time, it was Bobby Knight was there.

00:46:15.080 Oh, wow.

00:46:15.560 And the head coach at State now for basketball was an assistant to Jud Heathcote when I was there.

00:46:22.420 So, I've got to watch this coach just, you know, blossom over the last 30 years.

00:46:29.560 So, you get, so you go through Michigan State and then you get drafted.

00:46:33.640 And by then, you're, like, a hero.

00:46:34.820 That's when we see, like, the big pictures of you.

00:46:36.980 That's when we see you, like, you know, really kind of put on this, I don't know, what was that like?

00:46:44.460 Like, take me through a little bit of that.

00:46:45.580 Like, did you kind of start that legend of yourself or was that all kind of media-created?

00:46:51.840 I know that Sports Illustrated came out, like, the day before the draft or a couple days before.

00:46:56.280 Or, you know, one of the famous.

00:46:59.580 Yeah, that's right on Venice Beach, actually.

00:47:02.640 Damn, dude.

00:47:03.260 Let me tell you this, bro.

00:47:04.460 If you wanted to start an all-men's football team today on Venice Beach, bro, that picture would get it done.

00:47:10.380 I'll tell you that.

00:47:11.300 I'll tell you this.

00:47:11.840 Half the men would be wearing roller skates.

00:47:13.380 Like the four skates or not the blaze?

00:47:18.640 Rainbow socks?

00:47:19.620 Rainbow socks?

00:47:20.680 We're talking in line.

00:47:22.080 We're talking in line but out of line.

00:47:24.060 You feel me, daddy?

00:47:27.200 So, take me, I mean, because, like, that image right there, especially for people that are looking at Sports Illustrated, like, that's the thing that comes in the mail where it's like, okay, I didn't know about this guy.

00:47:36.900 And now I know about this guy.

00:47:38.540 And then I go to the water cooler and I'm talking about, like, I've known about this guy forever.

00:47:42.500 Right.

00:47:42.560 But, yeah, it was, like, a phenomenon.

00:47:45.160 It was, it was, it really, like, it was almost overnight, like, that, for me, it wasn't, like, any different.

00:47:51.420 Like, I was, like, working my ass off every day to be the best.

00:47:56.360 Right.

00:47:56.520 I woke up, like, literally every day being, like, what can I do today to get myself better?

00:48:01.160 And were you doing steroids that whole time?

00:48:04.320 When I was at school?

00:48:05.320 Yeah.

00:48:05.580 Yeah.

00:48:05.720 And did you feel like, do you, did you ever, I guess, did you have the, like, were you afraid to probably get off him at that point?

00:48:13.880 I would be afraid to get off him.

00:48:14.800 Well, I mean, I was just going to math myself, I was afraid to get off of him.

00:48:17.400 You were collecting papers from the students.

00:48:19.540 You were married to the teacher.

00:48:20.580 You know, yeah.

00:48:23.920 I mean, if I had my preference, I would not have got off of him.

00:48:27.140 But, you know, the NFL's testing was way more sophisticated.

00:48:31.580 So, was that scary then you're getting drafted and you know that, like, it, you know, it wasn't as scary as you might think.

00:48:39.460 And this is why, because I've, I've looked back at this in my life.

00:48:43.540 And every time I took steroids and then got, like, if I got off for 12 or 16 weeks and then got off for 12 weeks and then got back on, I would lose about 10, 15, maximum 20% of my strength.

00:48:56.860 Well, and then, you know, so every time you cycle, you compound that strength and you keep getting stronger and stronger.

00:49:02.520 So, when I got drafted, I mean, if you're benching close to 600 pounds and you lose 15 or 20% of your strength, you're still pretty strong.

00:49:09.160 Yeah.

00:49:09.500 And you're still pretty much stronger than a lot of the guys in the NFL.

00:49:12.600 So, really wasn't that much of a concern.

00:49:16.720 The psychological effect of steroids are, as well as they work physically, the multiplier on the psychological effect, in my opinion, are at least five to tenfold.

00:49:26.340 Like, you know that feeling you were talking about earlier, like, when you feel like, yeah.

00:49:29.440 Yeah.

00:49:29.840 And then, then you don't have that feeling.

00:49:32.300 Yeah.

00:49:32.760 Right?

00:49:33.040 And you're going to another level.

00:49:34.740 Oh, that would be, to me, that's only, it gives me anxiety right now hearing you say that.

00:49:38.540 Right.

00:49:38.940 Like, okay, I'm walking into this place and suddenly, like, some of the wet, the sword is, my sword's different.

00:49:43.760 Right.

00:49:44.040 And, all the expectations, all the shit talking I did, not on steroids anymore, still all the accusation.

00:49:50.600 I was like, you know, and I was like, I'm definitely not going to do steroids because it's going to, everybody's going to be like, see, he told you so.

00:49:56.420 He tested positive.

00:49:57.300 Right.

00:49:57.520 So, but you know what the thing was, like, that was definitely, that was a spoke in the wheel.

00:50:03.760 But everybody was like, no, that is the reason.

00:50:06.340 The only reason, and it was perfect for me because it was like, there's so much distraction.

00:50:10.500 They were focusing on steroids.

00:50:11.780 I was over here taking 80, 90 painkillers a day, conning all these pharmacists and doctors.

00:50:16.160 That's crazy.

00:50:17.260 So, it took kind of like the thing, like the concentration away from something they didn't know about because they kept saying steroids.

00:50:24.500 Well, I was half in the bag all the time.

00:50:26.400 So, at this point, this is when you start to realize you probably have some addiction issues.

00:50:30.440 Looking back, it's easy to see it.

00:50:31.740 But were you able to see that at the time or not really?

00:50:34.720 My fourth year there, third or fourth year there.

00:50:38.040 Well, actually, my third year there, I knew it was mainlining pharmaceutical painkillers.

00:50:42.240 That was the problem.

00:50:43.360 When, in Green Bay, you mean?

00:50:44.340 Yeah.

00:50:44.720 Damn.

00:50:45.120 I knew that was the problem.

00:50:46.180 So, I'm just going to switch to...

00:50:47.620 You're in livestock country, too, dude.

00:50:48.760 You're getting good shit.

00:50:51.080 You know what I'm saying?

00:50:53.840 You're talking dairy stuff.

00:50:55.200 Oh, I'm saying you're getting something wrong.

00:50:56.800 I'm surprised you weren't making your own milk.

00:50:59.360 I probably could have.

00:51:02.200 I'll come here a second on this, Diddy.

00:51:05.820 I'll just give it a minute.

00:51:06.940 Jesus, like you wake up ready to work.

00:51:10.360 You know, he's like that aluminum machine up on you.

00:51:12.160 Oh, yeah.

00:51:13.080 Dude, yeah, I've had fresh milk right off the animal.

00:51:15.280 Man, it's not that good either.

00:51:16.720 I don't think it's good.

00:51:17.280 It's not that good.

00:51:17.940 And it's hot.

00:51:18.700 Yeah.

00:51:19.260 It's really overrated in like a lot of the, you know, old school pictures and stuff you

00:51:22.500 see.

00:51:22.800 But, um...

00:51:23.180 Yeah.

00:51:24.840 And we don't have to talk about...

00:51:25.980 I mean, I want to talk about your whole life.

00:51:27.720 Yeah.

00:51:27.820 You know, I just know it's...

00:51:28.720 You know, I just know that it's interesting and it's something that I could kind of relate

00:51:32.680 to.

00:51:33.100 Yeah.

00:51:33.340 You know?

00:51:34.240 And the addiction, like, I never thought I had a problem with drugs until it came to

00:51:38.960 the painkillers.

00:51:40.840 That's because I was like, I like, when you go through physical withdrawal, whether it's

00:51:46.400 alcohol or painkillers, they're different types, but listen, it's pain, right?

00:51:51.220 It's not a good, comfortable feeling.

00:51:53.140 And you were putting it in your vein?

00:51:54.360 Yeah.

00:51:54.660 I was mainlining it right there with the...

00:51:56.160 And see the mark?

00:51:56.800 Oh, I could hit that vein.

00:51:57.880 Right?

00:51:58.240 And dart.

00:51:58.900 A little basketball.

00:51:59.800 Oh, dude.

00:52:00.180 I could hit that thing in a bar.

00:52:01.180 You could tell I was right-handed, right?

00:52:03.120 I didn't need a turn to get, right?

00:52:05.320 Because I was all veiny anyways, but I knew that that was the problem.

00:52:09.220 That's the rationalization kicked in, right?

00:52:10.720 I know it's the mainlining that's killing me.

00:52:13.080 So I'm just going to switch to oral painkillers.

00:52:14.960 Wow.

00:52:15.240 Well, then you're taking 60, 70, 80, 90 a day.

00:52:18.340 And what were you on?

00:52:18.860 What were some different things you were on at the time?

00:52:20.240 A lot of the basic stuff you'll hear, Percodan, Percocet.

00:52:24.180 There was one called Fear in All Three that I really liked.

00:52:26.620 Fear in All Three?

00:52:27.260 I thought it was a movie.

00:52:28.300 Yeah, right?

00:52:28.900 That's not the sequel, but the third version.

00:52:32.820 Isn't Wesley Snipes in that?

00:52:35.300 You know, Fear in All Three, how about this?

00:52:36.840 Every year...

00:52:37.840 It's Jason versus Freddy, isn't it?

00:52:40.520 Within myself, right?

00:52:42.600 It was a dark neighborhood up here.

00:52:45.400 And there were some dark alleys, boy, I tell you.

00:52:47.480 Yeah, but there was, yeah, there was, there was, like, Fear in All, like, you probably don't

00:52:55.440 remember this, because it was before the internet.

00:52:58.600 There was something called a PDR, and it stood for Physician's Desk Reference.

00:53:04.160 And if you'd ever go to your doctor's office back then, they'd have this big, thick, it

00:53:07.380 looked like a big old encyclopedia.

00:53:09.160 Well, it had every drug made that year, or that was available that year.

00:53:13.820 So, I would, like, this is the lengths I would go to, to get the narcotics.

00:53:18.820 Wow.

00:53:19.340 I would find which ones are not triplicates, like triplicate copies of a prescription.

00:53:25.520 Okay.

00:53:25.840 Now, it's all digital and stuff, even though they write physical.

00:53:29.460 If it's a triplicate, one of the forms goes to the DEA.

00:53:34.580 Okay.

00:53:35.120 One goes to the doctor, and one, I think, goes to the pharmacy or something.

00:53:38.860 Well, the trick was to find something that was, like, a class or, like, a duplicate.

00:53:43.600 Okay.

00:53:44.220 Because then it only goes to the pharmacy and your doctor.

00:53:46.640 Wow.

00:53:47.160 And the pharmacies all weren't integrated.

00:53:49.560 So, you could, like, if there was Walgreens on this corner, it's not connected to that

00:53:52.600 Walgreens.

00:53:53.260 I mean, it might be on paperwork.

00:53:55.440 Right.

00:53:55.580 It might be at a Christmas party.

00:53:56.860 Right, right, right, right.

00:53:57.920 But that was the old internet, yeah.

00:53:58.720 Tony keep coming by and get all these refills, right?

00:54:01.620 Wow.

00:54:02.220 Wow.

00:54:03.060 But, yeah, so I would look for the duplicates, but that still had the certain chemicals

00:54:06.660 that I knew would, you know, mind alter.

00:54:08.700 Wow, so you were in it.

00:54:09.740 Yeah.

00:54:10.260 And then, so that was a duplicate, that injection.

00:54:14.840 And it was used, it was mainly used for women that started labor because they didn't want

00:54:20.200 to numb them too much because they still had to push.

00:54:22.700 Yeah.

00:54:22.920 But it would give them enough of a relief to take the edge off the pain.

00:54:26.480 Oh, God.

00:54:26.820 So, that was, like, for somebody, like, a drug addict, it's trying to, you know, it's

00:54:30.780 perfect.

00:54:31.080 Yeah, perfect.

00:54:31.800 Yeah, I can still go to the bathroom, but I'm going to be fucked up.

00:54:33.760 Right, right, exactly.

00:54:35.120 Do, um, where was your head at at that point?

00:54:37.540 Up my ass?

00:54:42.260 And there's some days sober, it's up my ass.

00:54:45.640 How much, oh, for sure.

00:54:47.460 How much, what was your ego like at that point?

00:54:49.580 I saw, because it's funny, I saw a David Letterman interview out there of yours, and

00:54:53.760 it's hilarious, bro.

00:54:55.120 You have so many funny lines in it.

00:54:58.020 Did you like my Theo haircut?

00:54:59.360 Yeah, I did.

00:55:00.220 I noticed that.

00:55:00.740 I knew, I knew you were on your way.

00:55:02.640 Immediately.

00:55:02.960 I was representing.

00:55:04.480 This is definitely a sign that you're going to end up in recovery.

00:55:06.860 Right.

00:55:07.480 I didn't know that I told you that.

00:55:10.140 But this interview, I thought you were just so, first of all, I could feel a little bit

00:55:14.780 of your nerves just because what does it have to be like for a guy like this to be, I

00:55:18.760 mean, this is a huge show.

00:55:20.980 And then to be sitting there.

00:55:21.980 And you went toe to toe with him with a lot of great comedy, a lot of great barbs.

00:55:26.040 He had a lot of great lines.

00:55:27.960 Where was your ego at during this?

00:55:29.900 Because I can imagine that this would get you, probably, you know, your head would also

00:55:34.720 start to gain size.

00:55:35.500 Was that happening for you?

00:55:36.520 Or were you just, were you chill?

00:55:38.080 I mean, what was your vibe?

00:55:39.080 No, the ego was starting to get out of control.

00:55:41.640 And this was, you know, I was, the injectable painkillers were just starting.

00:55:47.120 And I was, I was at this time, I was on the tail end of living in California.

00:55:52.640 I lived in Cali for nine months.

00:55:54.820 And that's after the draft?

00:55:56.420 This was after the draft.

00:55:59.240 Before the season started?

00:56:00.760 Yeah, because I held out until September 5th.

00:56:02.660 Oh, that's right.

00:56:03.060 You're talking about your contract in this.

00:56:04.600 Because we were going to, because Tyson's people contacted, Tyson's people contacted

00:56:08.800 my people.

00:56:09.440 That sounds so fucking stupid, doesn't it?

00:56:11.020 But that's how it works here.

00:56:11.920 You have to have a lot of those people.

00:56:13.480 We all get it.

00:56:14.540 But, you know, the cool thing was, I loved Letterman growing up.

00:56:18.240 I watched him all the time.

00:56:19.580 And then you get this invite, you're going, are you freaking kidding me?

00:56:22.720 It's like almost as good as getting the invite to be on this show.

00:56:26.580 Almost as good.

00:56:28.020 Almost as good.

00:56:29.500 And because I was like, Theo, who?

00:56:31.260 And I was like, I had to check this guy out online before I answered this email.

00:56:35.060 And I started watching it.

00:56:35.900 And I'm like, four hours later, I'm still watching all these different stuff.

00:56:38.420 And I'm like, this guy's like legit.

00:56:40.080 He's like authentic.

00:56:41.120 He's no bullshit.

00:56:42.300 He's funny as shit.

00:56:43.420 We're trying.

00:56:44.200 And he's sober.

00:56:45.120 We're trying our best, man.

00:56:46.220 You guys are doing it, man.

00:56:47.240 I'm telling you.

00:56:48.300 But yeah, I am really glad that you gave us the opportunity to be here with you today.

00:56:53.640 I appreciate it.

00:56:54.200 I really am, man.

00:56:55.900 So yeah, because it's just, it's interesting, man.

00:56:58.000 And like, for one, I'm surprised how easy it is for me to talk to somebody else that's

00:57:01.200 in recovery.

00:57:02.140 You know, like a lot, like a lot of, it's interesting.

00:57:05.140 It's like, it's like a non-tangible risk.

00:57:07.800 It's not a risk.

00:57:08.620 It is kind of a respect, but it's like, I know you've been through the gutter and I know

00:57:12.140 you fucking pulled yourself out of it.

00:57:13.480 Yeah.

00:57:14.120 And I know how you feel.

00:57:15.240 It's funny.

00:57:15.680 It's like, I know how you feel in places where I can't even describe it.

00:57:19.640 Kind of, you know?

00:57:20.420 Right, right, right.

00:57:20.940 Yeah.

00:57:21.480 And it's especially interesting because to have those feelings, but also to be such a big guy,

00:57:25.040 like, when did that kind of come to a head for you to, cause it's like some of those

00:57:29.000 feelings, it's like, damn, I feel like such a bitch, you know?

00:57:32.680 Um, and no offense to bitches, you know, but every, if someone hasn't been a bitch in their

00:57:38.700 life at some point, they have lived in a cave.

00:57:41.960 Sorry.

00:57:43.140 If, if you haven't failed in life, okay.

00:57:46.140 I mean, we get the fail on the front page.

00:57:48.340 Yeah.

00:57:48.820 Right.

00:57:49.400 So, yeah, I mean, I brought it upon myself.

00:57:52.220 I take accountability.

00:57:53.100 Um, did you start to feel like, um, so take me out on the road out of the, out of the

00:57:58.460 NFL, take me on that.

00:57:59.940 Some of that road.

00:58:00.640 The first time out.

00:58:01.580 Yeah.

00:58:02.220 So for your contract with the Packers was a four year, $4.4 million contract.

00:58:08.440 That was the first offensive lineman to get.

00:58:10.960 I need a water.

00:58:11.480 You have one.

00:58:11.820 I got, okay, cool.

00:58:13.060 Um, I think I got, uh, so I was the first offensive lineman ever in the NFL to make a

00:58:19.080 seven figure average salary per year without ever playing a play.

00:58:22.120 So, you know, that's going to kind of rub some people wrong, especially offensive lineman,

00:58:26.680 but the smart offensive lineman were like, no, this is going to help us.

00:58:31.000 Right.

00:58:31.460 Because the next year there was like 27, 28 guys that made over that were in the league

00:58:35.960 already and they deserved it.

00:58:38.700 So I went in with the kind of attitude of, this is a short lived career and it could

00:58:46.600 be one play and you're done.

00:58:47.940 Like you could blow your knee out, never come back from it.

00:58:50.580 I mean, probably one of the greatest athletes ever, in my opinion, is Bo Jackson.

00:58:54.160 And I think the amount of torque that that guy had and strengthened his body is what kind

00:59:00.440 of hurt his hip.

00:59:01.680 Like I, I believe that.

00:59:02.820 Right.

00:59:02.920 It's almost too much.

00:59:03.520 Yeah.

00:59:03.720 It's almost too much.

00:59:04.660 Right.

00:59:05.040 Cause the guy was like, just, I mean, baseball, he was an all-star and in, in football, he was

00:59:10.080 a, an all pro.

00:59:11.340 Yeah.

00:59:11.960 I mean, that's unprecedented.

00:59:13.360 Did you play around the same time as him or no?

00:59:15.020 Uh, he was like three, four years older than me.

00:59:18.280 Okay.

00:59:19.220 Um, Herschel was like in that, like kind of like you could have that discussion with Herschel

00:59:24.420 Walker too.

00:59:24.960 He's like ridiculously like athletic.

00:59:27.380 He still looks like he's a play.

00:59:28.860 Yeah.

00:59:29.120 Yeah.

00:59:29.200 And he's, I mean, he's the real deal, you know, he's a great guy.

00:59:32.400 And, um, like for me, like my class, my draft class, like, you know, four of the first

00:59:38.060 five guys are in the hall of fame.

00:59:39.340 Bring it up, Nick, please.

00:59:40.480 You know, Dion, like Dion Sanders.

00:59:43.040 Right.

00:59:43.280 I've never seen anything like that on the field.

00:59:45.820 Yeah.

00:59:46.120 That guy didn't run across.

00:59:47.460 He glided across.

00:59:48.640 He floated, didn't he?

00:59:49.140 I mean, it was ridiculous what he did.

00:59:51.760 And, um, you know, he's a, he was a pleasure to watch.

00:59:56.060 Is it wild to see your name when you look at this, Tony?

00:59:59.840 Um, not anymore.

01:00:01.360 It's kind of like, you know, it's like, I, I, I, you know, listen, I feel, yeah, look

01:00:06.200 at those guys.

01:00:06.760 I mean, unfortunately, you know, Derek Thomas had that accident.

01:00:10.260 Oh, that was heartbreaking.

01:00:11.020 Yeah.

01:00:11.540 God.

01:00:11.900 Um, but you know, Burt Grossman from the Chargers, I had done, um, his radio show, uh, from San

01:00:21.680 Diego, like maybe a month ago.

01:00:24.000 Um, there's some like Steve Atwater.

01:00:26.200 Yeah.

01:00:26.380 Do you remember when Atwater hit, um, the guy from Kansas city, uh, the nightmare, the

01:00:31.100 Nigerian nightmare?

01:00:32.120 I don't know if I remember.

01:00:32.760 I remember when he hit a guy from, uh, San Francisco one time.

01:00:35.840 Um, um, in this, well, the guy that, uh, what was his name?

01:00:40.300 Uh, Christian McCoy.

01:00:41.220 Yeah.

01:00:41.880 And that from that hit, that guy's career was never the same because he was running people

01:00:46.940 over like a train.

01:00:47.840 And when he hit that guy, it was one of, I mean, to this day, one of the best hits I've

01:00:52.680 ever seen.

01:00:53.700 And you know, Atwater was taken late in the first round.

01:00:57.120 Right.

01:00:57.840 Watch this.

01:00:58.760 Oh, and Christian McCoy is like two 50, two 60.

01:01:01.380 It was unbelievable, man.

01:01:02.920 And he knocked him backwards at full speed.

01:01:08.460 Wow.

01:01:08.900 I'll tell you what, I got a lot of respect for that.

01:01:11.960 Those Broncos were fun to watch.

01:01:13.120 I got a lot of respect for that.

01:01:14.340 Um, so what, what, so take, so take me, take me out of the end of that.

01:01:19.340 So you get into, you go into recovery in a rehab.

01:01:21.900 Well, no.

01:01:22.040 Well, yeah, so I get, you know, pretty much not officially kicked out of the league, but

01:01:28.700 kind of like Green Bay is like after the contract was over, after four years, they're

01:01:33.080 like, we're not going to resign you.

01:01:34.780 We don't, we don't want your services.

01:01:36.600 And they were professional about it.

01:01:38.340 Right.

01:01:38.760 And of course, at that time I was like, well, I don't want to play for you guys.

01:01:42.340 It's your fault.

01:01:42.940 Anyway, it's that my career screwed up and my life's good.

01:01:45.120 It's not my fault.

01:01:45.920 Right.

01:01:46.620 It's all about you.

01:01:47.920 I believe Nick all the time.

01:01:48.780 It was Nick's fault.

01:01:49.880 Totally.

01:01:50.720 I got that tattoo tomorrow.

01:01:52.040 It was Nick's fault with an arrow on this one.

01:01:56.500 So, so it was, you know, it was so that, you know, so I don't, I get that call in January

01:02:02.820 and February, I get the call that my brother had passed.

01:02:10.020 And then, so it was like, God, things can't get worse.

01:02:12.960 It's like, oh man, don't ever say that.

01:02:15.180 Cause things just got worse.

01:02:16.540 They got worse.

01:02:17.240 And I knew that, I mean, I knew that my NFL career with the Packers was a definite bust

01:02:25.140 because of the, my addiction problem and just my, you know, not being capable of doing what

01:02:34.240 I could do before.

01:02:34.960 I just wasn't capable.

01:02:35.540 I don't think I could have worked at a, anywhere, 7-Eleven.

01:02:38.680 And that's not dissing 7-Eleven or anything.

01:02:40.700 It's just, I wasn't responsible enough to show up.

01:02:44.900 And for three years after that, that I was out of the league, I, it just get darker and

01:02:50.640 darker and darker and more and more and more painkillers.

01:02:53.900 And where were you living at that time?

01:02:55.440 I was in Michigan, Maple City, Michigan, which is right by Traverse City.

01:02:58.980 Wow.

01:02:59.620 I can imagine it gets pretty dark if you start just killing pain over in Michigan after a

01:03:03.620 while.

01:03:04.480 Yeah.

01:03:04.700 Michigan is beautiful though.

01:03:05.820 Well, Michigan is a great place.

01:03:06.820 I just imagine like in those long winters and those places, you know what I'm saying?

01:03:09.860 Like I imagine that coming around.

01:03:11.200 It was a long summer.

01:03:12.340 It was a long spring.

01:03:13.560 It was a long fall.

01:03:14.900 Everything was, everything was like, why do these bad things keep happening to me?

01:03:18.800 It couldn't be me, could it?

01:03:20.640 And you were just on a lot of painkillers, huh?

01:03:22.540 Yeah.

01:03:22.760 And were you just like spending days in bed?

01:03:25.140 Were you just like doing, I mean, were you partying?

01:03:27.880 Were you having?

01:03:28.820 No, I was, I wasn't much for like going out to party.

01:03:32.200 Like I was like, kind of like a loner drinker.

01:03:35.460 I was married and stuff, you know, and we had a daughter, our first daughter and it was,

01:03:41.340 it was like isolated drinking, I guess.

01:03:44.400 Drinking and drugging would be the isolated, I think would be the best way to describe it.

01:03:49.240 I hated people.

01:03:50.420 Yeah.

01:03:50.700 You know, because just guys, they're going to interrupt my buzz.

01:03:56.320 And I know I want my buzz.

01:03:58.480 Perfect.

01:03:59.620 And they're watching this white Bronco go down to 405.

01:04:04.080 And I'm in Michigan.

01:04:05.200 I'm going, can you believe this shit is happening?

01:04:07.200 Am I being messed up?

01:04:08.500 Or is this shit really happening?

01:04:09.600 Like, and you know, it was, it was like a, it was like a, I mean, you're conscious, you

01:04:15.860 know what's going on, but it's a blur.

01:04:17.560 It's like a blur.

01:04:19.200 Yeah.

01:04:19.520 Yeah.

01:04:19.560 Being, being messed up, that kind of stuff is a blur, especially it feels like with pain,

01:04:23.060 with painkillers.

01:04:23.840 I never got into painkillers, but the couple of times I did, my friend got arrested and

01:04:29.820 I just woke up in my car, you know?

01:04:32.160 And so just shit like that would happen.

01:04:33.300 It affects people definitely too.

01:04:34.280 Right.

01:04:34.460 Like for me, it like really a painkiller is a downer.

01:04:36.720 It's a depressant as is alcohol.

01:04:38.780 But for me, when I would take a downer, like painkiller, like a opiate, I would get high,

01:04:45.220 like, like energy high.

01:04:47.200 And I'd be like, let's go to the mall.

01:04:49.220 Right.

01:04:49.660 And walk around the food court and get something from every place.

01:04:52.100 Such an offensive lineman high.

01:04:57.060 Not much has changed there, but, but it was, it was weird.

01:05:02.440 But then, you know, that darkness that's in.

01:05:05.020 Yeah.

01:05:05.500 It's not good.

01:05:06.320 It's when the darkness gets that dark, you either get sober or you die or you die from

01:05:12.100 it.

01:05:12.420 Yeah.

01:05:12.780 Or an, or a symptom from it, whether you take your own life, whether you, your liver goes,

01:05:18.020 whether your heart goes, whether all the side effects.

01:05:22.100 What do you think right now?

01:05:23.340 I mean, you know, we had this guy, Morgan Wallen on the podcast last week.

01:05:26.720 He's a country musician.

01:05:27.720 And we talked briefly about the side effects of this, all this lockdowning and the inability

01:05:35.040 of like, I'm going to meet with a, with a new sponsor later today, actually to go over,

01:05:40.200 to start doing the step work again.

01:05:42.560 And we're trying to find a place to meet.

01:05:44.340 And it's like, we can't even meet anywhere.

01:05:46.180 Like we have to meet at one of our houses, which is fine.

01:05:48.280 But if you're, if you're just getting into trying, doing the steps or something, like

01:05:52.160 if somebody is like, Hey, come over to my house and you've never even met them.

01:05:54.900 Right.

01:05:55.220 Like that can be, you know, some guys won't go do that.

01:05:57.840 Right.

01:05:58.280 And it just makes me like all the meat, you know, so many of the meeting rooms, even though

01:06:01.640 some are still going on the DL, but like a lot of them being closed.

01:06:04.780 And I just, I, I, I feel like we're going to lose more people from the fallout of addiction

01:06:11.160 problems than we ever are from this silly disease or whatever.

01:06:14.880 And that's just from addiction.

01:06:17.400 What about just mental illness?

01:06:19.560 Right.

01:06:19.760 Like, like the suicides, I saw, you know, a report, I don't know what to believe anymore

01:06:24.000 when I see, right.

01:06:24.940 It's like so warped one way or the other, but numbers are numbers.

01:06:28.920 Facts are facts.

01:06:29.720 And like, there's a fourfold numbers are up in this one state of teenage suicides from

01:06:37.340 last year to this year.

01:06:39.760 And it's like, well, what's the only difference?

01:06:43.220 The lockdown.

01:06:44.400 Right.

01:06:44.460 Yeah.

01:06:44.660 And not no, nobody in school.

01:06:46.160 And it's like kids that were on the fence with maybe depression or with, you know, kind

01:06:52.660 of trying to figure out still who they are.

01:06:54.500 It only took me like 40 years, but I'm still trying to figure it out.

01:06:58.720 We're slow learners.

01:06:59.560 Right.

01:06:59.940 As long as we're learning, right.

01:07:00.960 As long as we're trying to learn.

01:07:03.480 So, you know, a lot of those people went on the fence the other way and just took themselves

01:07:08.120 out because they felt it was, it was, you know, easier.

01:07:11.720 Yeah.

01:07:11.980 And it is easier.

01:07:13.000 It's the easy way out.

01:07:14.140 It's, you know, and it's, that's, you know, no disrespect to, you know, people that are

01:07:20.460 related that has had somebody do that to themselves because it's, it's, it's gotta be a horrible

01:07:24.960 feeling.

01:07:25.380 I mean, I've had friends that have done it and I, and I just like, my heart just bleeds

01:07:28.780 for them because it's like, I mean, how bad does it have to get to do that?

01:07:35.700 And it, you know, it's like, well, it did get that bad.

01:07:38.500 You know, for me, it got that bad.

01:07:40.380 Yeah.

01:07:41.200 And others, I've had some moments over the years where you're like, yeah, you just isolate

01:07:45.300 enough where you feel like nobody cares even though they do.

01:07:47.840 But you just, yeah, the worst conversation to have is with yourself in your head.

01:07:51.680 It's like, it's like, it's a bad conversation.

01:07:54.520 It's a bad conversation.

01:07:55.800 It's a bad, it's like, I got to run it by a lot of people.

01:07:58.440 Yeah.

01:07:58.740 You know, and, and not, there's like three or four people that I like trust my life with

01:08:03.800 and I'll just be like, what do you think of this?

01:08:07.020 Am I out of line here?

01:08:08.020 Is my, is my ego getting into this or is, am I being selfish with this or is this an

01:08:13.680 opportunity to take advantage of?

01:08:15.660 And, you know, because a lot of times my perspective is different.

01:08:20.600 I grew up, like, I think your environment, the way you grow up affects your perspective

01:08:25.600 on life and your life's experiences.

01:08:27.080 Um, that's like easy.

01:08:29.720 That's obvious.

01:08:30.420 So that's why I need other people's perspectives.

01:08:32.940 If, if, if people were to raise their kids today, say the way I was raised, they'd be

01:08:40.260 in jail.

01:08:40.680 Right.

01:08:41.300 For child abuse.

01:08:42.260 Right.

01:08:42.520 Or like, you know, you got slapped or whatever.

01:08:44.620 I only had to get hit while slapped in my face twice.

01:08:47.960 Before you pancake block someone.

01:08:49.440 No, it was once I was like, oh, before you got together.

01:08:52.560 Before I was like, after, after the second time I was like crystal clear.

01:08:56.880 I understand if you say don't do this, I won't.

01:09:00.560 That's the rule.

01:09:01.020 Yeah.

01:09:01.240 And, and I was like, you know, six, seven years old and it was like, and, and you know

01:09:05.980 what?

01:09:06.960 I'm glad that it was that way for me because I don't want to be babied.

01:09:12.120 Right.

01:09:12.520 I don't want to be, you know, I don't want to do pillow fights.

01:09:16.340 It's funny.

01:09:16.920 Cause you say baby.

01:09:17.800 And sometimes I feel like, honestly, what I feel like sometimes is a baby.

01:09:21.220 I'm like, I'm like, I'm a baby that never got certain things when I was a baby, probably

01:09:26.480 so fucking sometimes I still act like a baby, but then I'm the only person there.

01:09:31.820 It's like, I'm the baby and I'm the person fucking reaching and that has to reach into

01:09:35.500 the crib to fucking help myself, you know?

01:09:37.520 So thankfully over time, I start to realize that I need to be more, at least I know I'm

01:09:44.100 capable after a few minutes of being the baby or getting a perspective.

01:09:47.660 Which is fine.

01:09:48.140 Yeah.

01:09:48.380 We just allow, you're allowed to do that.

01:09:49.340 And I can't help it.

01:09:50.220 Right.

01:09:50.500 A lot of times I can't help it.

01:09:51.260 Right.

01:09:52.440 So when did, so we kind of gone through like a little bit of like your journey.

01:09:55.720 So tell me like, like when did you start to get like a new perspective?

01:09:59.520 March 23rd in 95, I walked into that treatment center and I remember thinking to myself,

01:10:06.320 like I can picture that, that stainless steel door, like industrial door and thinking to

01:10:11.180 myself, the fun's over.

01:10:12.540 Yeah.

01:10:12.800 But I was like, I'd rather be boring and sober than miserable and drunk or an alcoholic

01:10:18.500 life.

01:10:19.820 And 11 days later, I stayed in that treatment center 17 days.

01:10:23.940 At day 11, I started laughing again and my gut hurt from laughing that day.

01:10:34.320 Wow.

01:10:35.200 And I was like, I forgot about that.

01:10:36.920 You noticed it.

01:10:37.700 I forgot about that feeling.

01:10:39.040 That powerful.

01:10:40.440 And I was like, I don't know what's happening, but I'm digging my claws into it.

01:10:44.360 And I've been laughing ever since.

01:10:45.620 Damn.

01:10:45.980 Even on the tragic days, there's been some kind of laughter, even if it's been internal,

01:10:49.700 like amusement in my own head, like, it's, you know, like we make fun of our, poke fun

01:10:53.580 of ourselves.

01:10:54.360 Oh yeah.

01:10:54.780 I don't have to sit and laugh out loud to be, you know, put things in perspective.

01:10:59.220 But, you know, even on days where my mom died three years or three and a half years ago,

01:11:03.180 it was like a hard day for me.

01:11:04.540 And, and, and, and really it was like the harder year after it was harder for me than

01:11:08.960 that week that, you know, that she had died and stuff.

01:11:12.060 Cause you almost have stuff to do that week.

01:11:13.500 Yeah.

01:11:13.820 Weird way.

01:11:14.420 I kick into like, you know, I got to get things done.

01:11:16.900 There's responsibilities.

01:11:17.840 It's gotta, you know, make sure things are right.

01:11:20.500 And then once you sit, you know, that passes and then you sink in and then you're not buying

01:11:24.680 that ticket to go see mom in November, like to see her for Christmas.

01:11:29.540 Cause you're like, mom ain't there.

01:11:31.740 That's when you're like, fuck.

01:11:34.160 That's heavy.

01:11:36.160 Um, so you, so you went into there, you started to get better.

01:11:39.600 Yeah.

01:11:40.200 Yeah.

01:11:40.660 Like day 11 started laughing again.

01:11:42.680 And then, yeah, there's little things, man.

01:11:44.980 You notice, I, I remember having, uh, a thought that made me laugh.

01:11:50.240 I remember just driving one time and, um, and I've struggled in and out over my five

01:11:54.820 years in recovery, but I've never given up on, on the program or, or trying to, uh, you

01:12:01.940 know, I haven't given up on that path yet in my life.

01:12:04.280 Um, and I'm trying a new nail, you know, trying it again.

01:12:08.420 Um, but I remember, yeah, a time when I just was driving down the road and I laughed just

01:12:15.260 by myself and I was like, fuck, I haven't done that in months.

01:12:17.560 Just the little things that were like, um, that you just came or just like, uh, I remember

01:12:23.880 I woke up in the middle of the night one night and I didn't have a thought in my head

01:12:27.080 and it was like, Jesus Christ, this is so nice.

01:12:29.480 Isn't that nice?

01:12:30.540 The noise is not there.

01:12:32.140 Yeah.

01:12:32.940 Just like, especially for someone like you.

01:12:35.220 Yeah.

01:12:35.620 Well, it's like somebody started, it's like somebody left something plugged in.

01:12:38.400 That's rattling like 40 years ago and it's rattling all that.

01:12:42.300 And I can't find it.

01:12:43.260 Put a twist tie around that thing.

01:12:45.700 Something.

01:12:46.660 You know, um, so you had a second opportunity with the NFL.

01:12:50.480 Yeah.

01:12:51.020 Okay.

01:12:51.300 Which I was very lucky to get.

01:12:53.200 Cause I burned all my bridges.

01:12:54.440 I was, I was thorough.

01:12:56.400 Burned them all.

01:12:57.200 I was like, I'm going to burn one or two.

01:12:58.820 I'm going to fry them all.

01:13:00.200 Cause it's all their fault.

01:13:01.780 It couldn't be my fault.

01:13:03.680 And so, you know, there was a huge paradigm shift.

01:13:07.060 Once I left sobriety, it literally almost went to what's for, it went from what's in

01:13:12.600 it for me to what can I pack into life?

01:13:16.140 What can I pack into this?

01:13:17.220 How can I make things right that I wrong?

01:13:19.000 And then after I make some of those things, right.

01:13:20.980 Cause some of them, we can't, then how am I going to live and am I going to be adding on

01:13:27.680 a daily basis to life and participating or am I going to be sucking and conning people

01:13:32.000 like sucking out of life and conning stuff out of people?

01:13:34.740 And, you know, because then it's like, it's like that, you know, you've, I'm sure you've

01:13:38.880 heard that analogy of the, so the drunk horse thief that you get sober, you get it, you

01:13:43.880 know, if you get a, have a drunk horse thief that steals horses and you sober them up, what

01:13:48.440 do you have?

01:13:49.040 You have a sober horse thief.

01:13:50.560 He still steals.

01:13:51.640 He's got to change.

01:13:52.920 He's got to change.

01:13:53.940 And so I knew that, okay, the, the chemical part was changed, but now I had to change

01:14:00.460 and that paradigm shift happened kind of naturally just from the removal of chemical of what's

01:14:06.840 in it for me to, holy shit, like I did some fucked up stuff and I wronged some people.

01:14:12.760 And so I, you know, made those amends over, you know, most of those amends were done over

01:14:17.900 the first two years.

01:14:19.240 And then the, one of the bigger ones with my dad, um, wasn't done until the four year

01:14:24.560 mark, but it was done and it was, it was, you know, necessary.

01:14:28.020 What was that like?

01:14:29.560 Well, you know what?

01:14:31.180 It was the, it was the one that obviously scared me the most, it was, had the most fear.

01:14:35.360 And I was in Indianapolis, he was in Canada and, um, I, I was four years sober and a guy

01:14:42.760 walked in to a regular meeting.

01:14:45.460 I went to a 12 and 12 meeting and he was like almost 20 years sober and a regular guy that

01:14:51.140 I knew.

01:14:51.980 And he had said that his dad had passed away that day.

01:14:55.380 And, uh, and then he talked about how he never made amends to his dad.

01:14:58.500 And I was like, holy shit.

01:15:00.200 I was like Louisville slugger came out again out that next day.

01:15:04.180 I was on the phone with my dad.

01:15:05.220 I was like, we do it for Christmas.

01:15:07.860 I'd like to come up and see you, you know?

01:15:10.540 And, uh, and he was like, yeah.

01:15:12.620 So I went out like that was towards the end of the season.

01:15:14.780 So when the season was over, um, I drove up to Canada and made amends to him.

01:15:20.640 And, uh, it was, it was, it's, you know, it's like I was lucky to be surrounded by good

01:15:27.780 sobriety guys that were very good in sobriety and that were, and I chose a sponsor that would

01:15:33.460 not baby me.

01:15:34.680 I don't want to be babied.

01:15:36.440 Um, and he said, when you make amends, you look at the person in the eye and you tell

01:15:43.080 him you were wrong for the way you acted or what you said or what you did.

01:15:47.820 You don't say, I'm sorry, because you know, you, how many times have we said, I'm sorry

01:15:52.620 for this?

01:15:53.080 And when we're all messed up, right?

01:15:54.440 I'm sorry.

01:15:54.840 We kept, we're always apologizing, right?

01:15:56.860 It's like, no, he literally said, say, I was wrong for acting that way while I was drinking

01:16:02.240 or drugging or whatever.

01:16:04.600 And, you know, I'm here to, you know, acknowledge it.

01:16:07.940 And even if they played a part in it, it's not about that.

01:16:12.260 You're there for, to make your part right.

01:16:14.680 And it's crazy how people don't realize that that is the real key to a lot of it, you know,

01:16:18.620 is setting yourself free, even though it feels like you're letting them off the hook.

01:16:22.960 Well, you're getting your own.

01:16:24.340 But here's the thing.

01:16:25.300 There's a huge caveat in there that is huge that I know I've seen people do this and it's

01:16:30.920 like, I just want to like punch them in the face.

01:16:33.640 And it's like, they make the amends for the, you know, they do it, make the amends at the

01:16:41.060 expense of that other person.

01:16:42.600 It's going to hurt that other person more rehashing that up or whatever the situation

01:16:47.900 is.

01:16:48.860 It's, there are some things better just left alone.

01:16:51.780 Yeah.

01:16:52.520 And just let your life, the way you live, be the example.

01:16:55.200 And if that person ever approaches you, or if you just get in a situation where it feels

01:16:59.420 right to be like, Hey man, you know, about, you know, um, you know, about the past or

01:17:04.360 whatever, but there were ones, most of my amends were literally like, like where I planned

01:17:09.100 them and I, you know, talk to the person or communicated and said, Hey, you know, I'd

01:17:13.620 like to meet up, just talk to you about some stuff.

01:17:15.860 And, um, so they were, you know, mostly like that, but to look your dad in the eye and

01:17:20.800 say, I was wrong for all these.

01:17:22.300 It was, wow.

01:17:23.140 Be powerful.

01:17:23.800 It was powerful.

01:17:25.240 Had you been like a shame to your dad or something?

01:17:27.200 Or you'd been like, or scared to death.

01:17:29.280 Were you there?

01:17:30.060 I was like six, six, three 25, you know, strong as shit.

01:17:34.480 Second time in the NFL.

01:17:35.480 Well, and that should put a lot of things in perspective for people that don't understand

01:17:41.320 addiction, that how emotions can run your life and how fear can run your life and how

01:17:48.220 just cause you're big and strong doesn't mean you're not scared.

01:17:50.780 Yeah.

01:17:51.380 You know, people have assumptions that, uh, I mean, I've, it's been, it's just, I've,

01:17:58.140 there's just been some humorous things.

01:17:59.560 I'm sure as you have had in your life where people have this assumption of what a comedian,

01:18:04.260 how they live, what they drive, what this, how, you know, they live in this $10 million

01:18:07.760 house or what it's like, yeah, it's like, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting to me

01:18:13.520 to observe that as life has gone on.

01:18:16.240 But, um, I forgot what the fuck we were talking about.

01:18:19.580 The amends.

01:18:20.880 Yeah.

01:18:21.540 I've had concussions.

01:18:22.960 Yeah.

01:18:23.700 Fuck.

01:18:24.120 I don't know.

01:18:25.060 I'm not that smart.

01:18:26.120 I never was.

01:18:27.980 If I work with a guy who's fucking got enough concussions for all of us.

01:18:31.240 Not me.

01:18:32.040 Real delinquent.

01:18:32.900 Not him.

01:18:33.500 Yeah.

01:18:34.260 But yeah, it's, uh, it was the thing about putting things in perspective that look, my

01:18:40.200 fear is the same fear that soccer mom fear has.

01:18:44.160 Right.

01:18:44.660 It's like, just because, you know, some people will say to me, you know, like when I played

01:18:52.880 and, and even sometimes now, or they might say it, if it's just comes up in conversation

01:18:59.000 about, you know, well, I mean, I know you wouldn't be, you know, that wouldn't mess.

01:19:04.260 I wouldn't mess with you because, I mean, you know, you could, you could handle a situation

01:19:07.560 like that.

01:19:08.160 And I'm thinking of myself and I would literally will be transparent.

01:19:11.440 I'll be like, how do you know?

01:19:12.620 Yeah.

01:19:12.980 And they, and they're still not getting it.

01:19:14.980 And I'm like, and then I would just share a story with them.

01:19:17.640 Hmm.

01:19:18.320 That is almost the semantics are different.

01:19:21.100 The story is identical.

01:19:22.200 Yeah.

01:19:22.260 The situations are different, but it's identical.

01:19:24.900 And it's like, and I was scared to death.

01:19:26.620 The story I shared with you about my dad, it's like, what do you, like, I'm sure there

01:19:30.520 was people going, what do you mean you were scared of your dad?

01:19:34.560 Your dad will always be your dad.

01:19:36.280 Yeah.

01:19:36.660 No matter what.

01:19:38.120 And your mom will always be your mom.

01:19:39.440 And, you know, it's like your bigger brother will always be your bigger brother or younger

01:19:43.800 brother or younger sister, whatever.

01:19:45.480 It's like, it's kind of like we get these certain roles and it's like, you know, dad

01:19:51.000 will always be alpha.

01:19:52.320 No, I don't care if I'm 10 times stronger than him.

01:19:54.240 He'll always be the alpha of the family.

01:19:56.780 Yeah.

01:19:57.500 Yeah.

01:19:57.860 I think there's probably some like a code that's within some of our DNA law.

01:20:01.780 Yeah.

01:20:02.820 We got a question right here that came in from somebody that has a iPhone.

01:20:07.800 And I actually had one too.

01:20:09.160 How often when people hear your name, do they mix your story up with Todd Marinovich?

01:20:14.920 Does that ever happen?

01:20:15.780 You know, hardly ever.

01:20:17.720 Because, yeah, he was just the prospect.

01:20:19.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:20:19.560 And then he was a little bit younger than me.

01:20:21.220 But I tell you what I do get a lot of is when people will hear my name and they'll be

01:20:26.280 like, they'll be like, are you the, and I'd be like, yeah.

01:20:32.600 And they'd be like, okay.

01:20:35.740 But that makes sense.

01:20:36.480 I'm like, carry on.

01:20:37.280 That's your name though.

01:20:39.020 Am I supposed to fake it?

01:20:40.520 That's true.

01:20:41.260 I thought maybe you were the guy that died that fought Rocky for a second.

01:20:44.580 Oh.

01:20:46.020 But then, you know, I've made some, I don't know, a lot.

01:20:49.120 Here's a young fellow that has a question right here.

01:20:52.440 He's probably trying to buy some wind straw, I bet.

01:20:56.040 What up, Theo?

01:20:57.460 What up, Tony?

01:20:58.480 A big fan from the University of Alabama.

01:21:00.660 Represent from Tuscaloosa.

01:21:02.800 On a side note, Theo, we're going to beat LSU's ass this weekend.

01:21:05.840 You probably will.

01:21:06.360 Damn.

01:21:07.040 My question for Tony is, as a former offensive lineman myself, what was the best game as

01:21:13.120 far as knockdowns or pancakes, whatever you want to call them, that you ever had?

01:21:17.500 And how many did you have?

01:21:19.580 Gang, gang.

01:21:20.300 Gang, bro.

01:21:20.980 What do you think there, Tony?

01:21:23.460 Is there a game that stands out, really?

01:21:25.460 Yeah, there's one because I, like, wanted to go out and torture the person or the team

01:21:36.020 or the school that I didn't like.

01:21:38.900 You know, was that other school in Michigan?

01:21:40.680 I don't know what their name is.

01:21:41.780 Yeah.

01:21:41.920 There's only one school in Michigan State, right?

01:21:44.260 No.

01:21:45.020 That's no disrespect to U of M.

01:21:47.320 I mean, they're a great institution, but obviously a huge interstate rivalry.

01:21:53.080 And at that time, they were, like, constantly winning.

01:21:56.420 Going to Rose Bowl, Beauchamp, Beckler, iconic.

01:21:58.740 I mean, so much respect for that guy.

01:22:02.500 But, you know, I probably had games where I had more pancakes or OTFs, we used to call

01:22:08.040 them off the film, where you drive a guy so far off the, like, that you don't even see

01:22:13.520 him on the film when you watch a film the next day.

01:22:15.720 So I had, like, probably, like, some games or more, but there was a certain Michigan game

01:22:21.760 that we had where I maybe had 13 or 14 pancakes.

01:22:25.560 Wow.

01:22:26.120 But because it was Michigan, it was sweeter.

01:22:29.480 Yeah.

01:22:29.860 Right?

01:22:30.920 And, yeah, it's like, it was interesting.

01:22:35.700 Like, when I look back, and I don't think I'm sadistic, but I didn't play to make friends.

01:22:43.740 And I didn't play to help you up if you were my opponent.

01:22:47.660 I didn't play dirty.

01:22:50.300 There'll be people that say, well, you cheated, okay?

01:22:53.100 And that's legit.

01:22:54.900 But, you know, after Michigan State, you know, it's like I didn't take any steroids.

01:23:01.860 But, yeah, at school, I mean, yeah, did I take steroids?

01:23:04.420 Was it, yeah, did I cheat?

01:23:06.240 Yeah, I did.

01:23:07.000 I was wrong for doing it.

01:23:08.240 And I don't recommend that anybody does it.

01:23:12.440 But that drive for, like, you know.

01:23:15.240 Yeah, your etiquette and stuff.

01:23:16.640 I mean, what's in your blood and what's in your heart and what's in your behavior can be different things.

01:23:21.060 Yeah.

01:23:21.460 And you don't, you know, there's people that, especially guys, now I'm talking, that are like,

01:23:25.700 well, yeah, but he took steroids.

01:23:28.280 And it's like, okay, well, yeah, why didn't you play in the NFL?

01:23:31.360 Right.

01:23:31.640 Why didn't you become All-American?

01:23:33.260 Why didn't you do all these things if all you had to do was take steroids?

01:23:36.800 Yeah.

01:23:37.300 Right?

01:23:37.740 It's like, you don't just take steroids, sit around and get jacked.

01:23:41.740 Yeah.

01:23:41.920 Everybody, every guy would be jacked and have abs.

01:23:44.400 Right.

01:23:44.640 You have to put in the work with it.

01:23:45.740 Right.

01:23:46.180 Right.

01:23:46.580 And my work was relentless because of walking home from snowstorms.

01:23:52.060 Yeah.

01:23:53.080 Because of the head coach I had.

01:23:54.860 Because the guy who recruited me, Nick Saban, they were all relentless about work ethic.

01:24:01.840 And the way I grew up, parents were immigrants.

01:24:04.800 They, like, literally escaped, put their lives on the line out of a communist country in the 50s.

01:24:10.260 Wow.

01:24:10.520 So, I'm, like, thinking to myself, I'm laying there on the field at camp, sober in Indianapolis, my second year there.

01:24:19.180 And it's hot as shit out in July.

01:24:21.860 It's humid.

01:24:23.020 And, like, just beating up with sweat during stretch.

01:24:26.260 Right?

01:24:26.480 You still got a two-hour practice to go.

01:24:28.320 And kind of feeling sorry for myself and, like, you know.

01:24:31.380 And then I started thinking about a story my mom told me or something where her mom pulls her out of third grade back in the old country in Europe.

01:24:39.160 And it was Croatia, but it was, at that time, Yugoslavia.

01:24:42.840 Pulled her out of third grade class and said, the guy that was taking care of our sheep in the mountains has bailed on us.

01:24:51.740 So, here's a wooden staff.

01:24:53.320 I need you to go take care of the sheep.

01:24:54.920 Wow.

01:24:55.180 And keep the wolves off of them.

01:24:58.120 Damn.

01:24:58.640 That's social studies.

01:24:59.760 Right?

01:25:00.400 So, go.

01:25:01.060 So, when I, I would start thinking of those stories.

01:25:04.400 And I'd be like, you whiny ass.

01:25:07.780 I know.

01:25:08.480 You feeling sorry.

01:25:09.480 And you're getting paid seven figures?

01:25:11.260 And you're bitching about it?

01:25:12.700 Of course, this was all internalized, you know, my self-discussion in my head.

01:25:16.340 And it helps put things in perspective.

01:25:18.620 And it's not tricking yourself.

01:25:20.000 It's legit perspective.

01:25:21.380 Right.

01:25:21.900 Like, that happened in 55.

01:25:23.180 That wasn't that long ago.

01:25:24.900 Yeah.

01:25:25.880 Yeah, we've got, I mean, it's even, I think about it during this pandemic.

01:25:28.180 It's like we're all kind of stuck, but then we're all stuck with our machines and our, you know, trimming our manscaping our penises or whatever everybody's doing.

01:25:35.680 I was doing that way before the pandemic.

01:25:37.940 I was ahead of the game.

01:25:39.220 I was ahead of the game.

01:25:40.360 You might have been ahead of the game there.

01:25:42.360 But you know what?

01:25:43.100 The pandemic for me, personally, has been awesome.

01:25:46.960 Yeah.

01:25:47.580 Because, like, I've started to realize I really like psychology.

01:25:51.420 And I like the study of just observation of people and how they act in human behavior.

01:25:55.720 And including my own.

01:25:58.240 And it was a fantastic year to do that.

01:26:03.800 Yeah.

01:26:04.040 Like with the toilet paper phenomenon.

01:26:06.340 Plus, there was a ton of things I had on the back burner that I was going to eventually get to.

01:26:13.180 Like when I had a lull in photography or I had a lull in something with work, I would get to this.

01:26:19.220 And so now there was a lull.

01:26:21.760 Right.

01:26:22.480 So now I was like, okay, well, hey, I can do these projects I had on the back burner because it was possible.

01:26:29.220 Yeah.

01:26:29.900 So now I've got those projects going.

01:26:31.800 And so, you know, for me, personally, it's been a great year.

01:26:37.360 And not as much great monetarily as it's been learning.

01:26:42.300 It's been freaking phenomenal.

01:26:44.240 It's a good attitude, man.

01:26:45.840 Yeah.

01:26:45.960 We talk about perspective and stuff in here a lot and not battle it every week and every day.

01:26:50.500 A lot of what you're doing now is photography, right?

01:26:53.440 Yes.

01:26:54.600 Did I answer that guy's question?

01:26:56.800 That man said, he said.

01:26:59.920 Your best game.

01:27:00.700 Yeah.

01:27:00.880 Michigan.

01:27:01.280 Oh, yeah.

01:27:01.640 Yeah.

01:27:01.800 Best game.

01:27:02.120 So it was Michigan.

01:27:02.780 Yeah.

01:27:02.960 I was against Michigan.

01:27:03.300 And what was Saban like at that time?

01:27:05.020 You know, he was.

01:27:06.240 Do you remember him finally or no?

01:27:07.400 Oh, yeah.

01:27:08.100 Yeah.

01:27:08.480 I mean, I babysat his kids.

01:27:09.940 Oh, damn.

01:27:10.760 Yeah.

01:27:11.860 I would behave.

01:27:13.040 Nick was.

01:27:13.740 Oh, yeah.

01:27:15.500 I'd behave.

01:27:16.100 And I'd be alarmed.

01:27:16.900 If you freaking bottle fed me, dude, I would be alarmed.

01:27:21.740 Nick was awesome.

01:27:24.220 Nick is the same guy.

01:27:25.820 I mean, he's a different guy today.

01:27:27.260 But he was pretty much the core of him was exactly what he is, what you see now.

01:27:31.200 He was about fundamentals, discipline, keeping things simple, removing distractions, and do your job.

01:27:38.240 You should go talk with Jocko Willink.

01:27:39.820 He'd be great on Jocko's podcast, Tom.

01:27:41.600 What to put you guys together, man.

01:27:43.780 Yeah, I'm a huge fan of his.

01:27:45.000 Yeah.

01:27:45.380 He's good.

01:27:45.980 He's legit.

01:27:46.460 I got his books and stuff.

01:27:47.860 Yeah.

01:27:49.040 He's definitely, when I think about giving up, which is a couple times a day, usually at least one of those times I won't.

01:27:54.120 And it's because of him.

01:27:55.940 You and me both.

01:27:56.560 Yeah.

01:27:57.620 Yeah, Saban's unbelievable.

01:27:58.920 It's just, it's unprecedented almost what he's done.

01:28:01.420 He was a DB coach when he recruited me, and Ohio was his area.

01:28:06.420 So you weren't even on his docket.

01:28:09.280 No, he was there looking at another guy who was one of the stars on our team.

01:28:13.460 And then he said to our head coach at the high school, who he knew, he's like, who's that guy?

01:28:19.440 And he told him and everything.

01:28:20.840 He goes, well, I want to talk to him.

01:28:22.560 And they watched film and stuff.

01:28:23.520 And then they offered me a scholarship.

01:28:24.740 And I remember sitting with Nick, and Nick was the same.

01:28:30.420 I mean, he's the same.

01:28:31.080 He's a phenomenal human being.

01:28:33.660 The guy is like a first-class human being.

01:28:36.460 And Terry, his wife, Terry.

01:28:37.860 They're great people.

01:28:40.100 And I was so lucky to be surrounded by some of these people.

01:28:44.760 And even all the mistakes I made, I was so lucky to be surrounded.

01:28:47.500 Isn't that amazing?

01:28:48.080 And then to watch Nick go from this DB coach to possibly being one of the greatest ever college football coaches.

01:28:55.540 And then when he went to Alabama, it was like, oh, you're not going to knock Bear Bryant to the side.

01:29:02.300 Come on now.

01:29:03.140 Bear's more of a cub now.

01:29:04.500 I mean, that's iconic, right?

01:29:05.100 Now it's like, no, that could be argued.

01:29:08.020 That could be argued.

01:29:09.020 Because he did it at LSU.

01:29:10.320 He won.

01:29:10.940 Yeah.

01:29:11.460 You know?

01:29:11.960 There's a lot of Michigan State people that hate him because he left Michigan State.

01:29:15.580 He was a head coach at Michigan State when he left for LSU.

01:29:18.260 But it's like, look, man, it's a business.

01:29:20.900 Yeah.

01:29:21.240 It's like.

01:29:22.000 It's funny how your dreams sometimes when they interact with business, how they don't.

01:29:25.920 You wish they would go a certain way or be a certain way.

01:29:28.320 But then sometimes the gifts, you still get your dreams.

01:29:31.480 It's just not exactly how you'd expect.

01:29:34.700 Looking back, do you feel like you did the best that you could have playing football?

01:29:40.780 Do you feel like what you did was what you were going to do?

01:29:43.580 That was it?

01:29:44.360 Yeah.

01:29:44.620 I held nothing back.

01:29:45.980 Yeah.

01:29:46.180 I held nothing back at Michigan State.

01:29:50.860 It's like, it's almost like oxymoron to say I held nothing back at Green Bay.

01:29:55.680 I held nothing back drinking and drugging in Green Bay.

01:29:58.240 Yeah.

01:29:58.560 But I just wasn't capable of giving them everything that, you know, that they had saw on film.

01:30:07.000 But then when I got sober, I got the chance to go to Indy.

01:30:09.820 And I was like, I literally treated every day like, like literally like life and death.

01:30:17.700 Wow.

01:30:17.860 It's like, if I don't do this today, I will die.

01:30:21.620 And there was times where...

01:30:23.620 Do what you mean?

01:30:26.520 The work.

01:30:27.480 Right.

01:30:28.240 And not just the time, the work.

01:30:31.240 The work.

01:30:31.680 During the time.

01:30:32.900 Because you can put in a bunch of time and spin your wheels, or you can put in the time and keep moving forward.

01:30:39.300 Even if it's at small increments, because it adds up.

01:30:42.540 Yeah.

01:30:44.600 Do you still...

01:30:46.320 You speak on recovery and stuff these days?

01:30:49.720 Mm-hmm.

01:30:49.900 I speak on recovery, adversity, and just a lot on thinking, you know, like...

01:30:57.740 Kind of like, there's a talk I give when I speak, do public speaks, which kind of slowed down after the pandemic.

01:31:07.060 About...

01:31:07.940 And the talk is titled, Why Not Me?

01:31:10.360 Yeah.

01:31:10.560 And then it's got like, it's three or four description for the people that book people to speak on what I talk about.

01:31:16.080 And, you know, I've always asked myself, why not me be the one to go from Canada?

01:31:24.540 And I was like 11 years old when I made that decision.

01:31:26.640 Like, I want to play in the NFL.

01:31:28.060 Yeah, live in the dream.

01:31:29.040 You really got to live out your dreams.

01:31:30.460 And I was like, why not me?

01:31:32.060 Right.

01:31:32.880 Like, why?

01:31:33.440 Like, seriously, why not?

01:31:35.200 Somebody's going to win the Powerball, right?

01:31:39.180 So why not me?

01:31:40.040 Well, okay, we got to take some action.

01:31:41.480 You got to buy a ticket.

01:31:42.460 Right.

01:31:42.820 So at least you got to have skin in the game.

01:31:44.640 Right.

01:31:45.020 If you don't buy a ticket, you're not serious.

01:31:46.720 Right.

01:31:47.180 Right?

01:31:47.520 At least you're trying, right?

01:31:49.160 You're going to see your sponsor.

01:31:50.660 You're moving.

01:31:51.760 You know one thing.

01:31:53.480 You're moving forward.

01:31:54.760 Whether that's the right sponsor or not.

01:31:57.020 You're looking and seeking for making yourself better.

01:32:00.960 Yeah.

01:32:01.580 So that has to be acknowledged.

01:32:05.040 It has to be acknowledged.

01:32:07.180 Well, I think those are the things that build up little bits of esteem inside of yourself.

01:32:10.900 You're like, oh, okay, I'm making this choice.

01:32:12.440 This is what I'm going to do.

01:32:13.680 You know, it's like whether it goes well or not, then you already win a little bit because

01:32:18.540 you're like, I'm making this effort.

01:32:20.480 You know, that's such the hard part sometimes is just, you know, sharing or raising your

01:32:25.300 hand or.

01:32:26.280 Yeah.

01:32:26.440 I struggle with it too.

01:32:27.640 Yeah.

01:32:28.000 It's hard.

01:32:28.580 It's crazy.

01:32:29.020 Sometimes I'll be in a meeting and I'll, everything in my brain will be like, just share, just

01:32:32.640 tell what's going on.

01:32:33.740 Right.

01:32:33.820 And I won't, you know.

01:32:34.740 I think you, like, I think when you do, like, I think, I'm going to be honest with you.

01:32:40.880 I've watched a lot of your stuff in the last couple of weeks and I'm like, fuck, you

01:32:46.340 know, like this guy's described a lot of my life.

01:32:50.480 Like, so you, like, it's like, there's so many common things, but the state I like the

01:32:55.940 least in the whole union is Louisiana.

01:32:57.760 Yeah.

01:32:58.180 I just, it's just one of those states that I've gone there like three or four times to

01:33:01.840 play the saints and it's always been smoggy and smelly.

01:33:05.000 Yeah.

01:33:05.380 So like, that's my impression of Louisiana.

01:33:07.420 There's so much tradition there and like stuff and like culture and stuff that I, you know,

01:33:13.360 like I know about, but I really don't know about.

01:33:15.700 Right.

01:33:16.320 And it's like, it's, it's, it's not a disrespect to the beat.

01:33:19.220 It was just kind of like, every time I've gone there, it's kind of been dirty and smelly.

01:33:22.100 Yeah.

01:33:22.240 Sometimes you get those experiences in places.

01:33:24.260 So it's like, you know, but I'm sure there's people like, you know, you live in the desert

01:33:27.880 in Arizona.

01:33:28.620 It's like, you know.

01:33:30.320 Yeah.

01:33:30.520 They got a lot of serpents out there.

01:33:32.240 Yeah.

01:33:32.380 And scorpions and people have crystals.

01:33:35.620 And divorcees.

01:33:36.340 They're trying to get that money.

01:33:37.660 Right.

01:33:37.920 Right.

01:33:38.060 Oh, they stick out like a, Oh my God.

01:33:41.100 The red flags walking around.

01:33:42.840 All they need is a sickle and a hammer.

01:33:49.600 Yeah.

01:33:50.180 Connection is so key, man.

01:33:51.680 It's crazy.

01:33:52.180 Our connection breaks down the different things that we, well, you know what?

01:33:55.600 Like crazy things that we keep us apart.

01:33:58.280 Yeah.

01:33:59.260 The other day you had said something when you do your like a solo podcast, you do like

01:34:05.160 a lot of talking about what's going on and stuff.

01:34:06.820 And you talked about, you had said something.

01:34:09.860 I was like, I can fucking relate to that shit there.

01:34:12.480 I pulled into a donut shop and I started crying.

01:34:14.920 Oh, wow.

01:34:15.520 Didn't get out of my vehicle.

01:34:17.340 That was me.

01:34:18.080 You go, wasn't touching myself.

01:34:19.380 Yeah.

01:34:19.480 No, no.

01:34:19.860 When I was listening to you, I was watching it on the YouTube.

01:34:22.420 I'm like, fuck.

01:34:22.700 I feel, I feel like, wait a second.

01:34:25.400 But, but you know, and then you kind of, right.

01:34:28.220 Right.

01:34:28.540 And I'm like, yeah, I know that feeling.

01:34:31.560 And it's like, you know, you think like, like you shared it.

01:34:34.180 It's real.

01:34:34.460 It's transparent.

01:34:35.460 Yeah.

01:34:35.660 But you don't know how that affects other people.

01:34:37.360 Right.

01:34:37.660 Because I was like, Ooh, fuck.

01:34:39.160 I know that feeling.

01:34:39.920 It may not have been a donut shop.

01:34:41.240 Might've been a Denny's.

01:34:42.220 Right.

01:34:42.380 That I pulled into, or it just might've been an empty parking lot that I pulled into and

01:34:46.020 started feeling sorry for myself.

01:34:47.100 If that was the case for me or whatever the case was.

01:34:49.760 And then, you know, I love the fact that you can laugh at yourself because you crack a

01:34:53.220 joke while you're doing it and you do it without laughing.

01:34:55.600 Can you say, well, I was crying, but I wasn't touching myself.

01:34:58.080 Yeah.

01:34:58.300 And I was like, I'm glad I wasn't.

01:35:00.740 Because when people walk them by.

01:35:01.720 You get arrested for that.

01:35:02.960 Well, yeah.

01:35:03.460 And now you will.

01:35:04.680 Yeah.

01:35:04.840 You'll get a long John with cream in it.

01:35:06.440 Yeah.

01:35:07.320 Yeah.

01:35:07.740 It's different.

01:35:09.140 Dude.

01:35:09.420 That's your, that's the original Tim Hortons right there, dude.

01:35:11.860 It's some guy masturbating.

01:35:13.100 That's a cake donut there.

01:35:16.200 That's crazy, man.

01:35:17.120 Yeah.

01:35:17.620 I was just having a day, man.

01:35:19.100 I just had a weird morning.

01:35:20.100 It was just kind of lonesome.

01:35:21.040 And I went there and then my brother's talking to me and my brother's been doing this thing

01:35:24.620 recently.

01:35:24.860 Like when we're on the phone, if I'm talking about like, uh, how I'm feeling or just something

01:35:28.980 that's going on, like, he'll be like, Oh, if you need me to stay on the phone with

01:35:31.720 you after we're done talking, I'll just sit here with you, you know, and I won't say

01:35:36.820 anything and you don't have to say anything.

01:35:39.140 Right.

01:35:39.580 And he's like, I'll just sit here with you.

01:35:40.940 That's pretty cool.

01:35:41.680 You know?

01:35:42.340 And man, it just like, that's pretty cool.

01:35:44.340 I mean, that's, it was crazy.

01:35:45.340 Cause I just never had anybody say, Hey, you know, no matter what you're feeling or thinking

01:35:49.020 right now, it's okay.

01:35:50.360 I'm just going to be here with you.

01:35:51.960 Right.

01:35:52.240 And you don't have to say anything and I don't have to say anything and I, and I'm just

01:35:55.940 here for you.

01:35:56.760 And man, it just, it's powerful.

01:35:59.140 Oh, it just like, it just, it, it gets uncontrollable where I'm just like, man, that's powerful.

01:36:04.760 You know?

01:36:05.780 That's real shit.

01:36:06.780 It's not, that's authentic, real stuff.

01:36:09.060 And you find out who the real, who, who's in your, who's loyal to you.

01:36:13.500 Yeah.

01:36:14.380 Like, and there's different levels, I guess, of loyalty, different degrees of loyalty.

01:36:19.300 But like when it comes to life and death, I'm talking, that's the only loyalty I want.

01:36:23.960 I'm talking about is like, I'll be in your corner, even if you're wrong.

01:36:30.100 Yeah.

01:36:30.600 Like that's the kind of loyalty I'm looking for.

01:36:33.340 And I have less than in my, at 54 years old, I have less than that on, you know, on one

01:36:39.040 hand, like less than five people, less than four people.

01:36:42.980 Well, and it's, it's interesting because the, the, one of the remarkable things about it

01:36:46.100 for me sometimes is that I think some of my reality and the, a little bit of the pain

01:36:55.660 that comes with it is that I don't know if I'm ever that for anyone.

01:36:59.440 And so some of it is a realization.

01:37:02.180 I just shared with you about the donut thing and it wasn't, it was a funny thing.

01:37:07.220 Oh, that's interesting.

01:37:07.920 And I'm sure people were like, well, that was like out of left field, but here I am at

01:37:13.560 20, almost 26 years sober going like, it made me stop.

01:37:16.980 It stopped me in my tracks.

01:37:18.000 Yeah.

01:37:18.780 So I was doing shit around the, where I live.

01:37:20.660 I was doing something right.

01:37:21.980 And I had your podcast on and I was listening to it and, and I was like, oh fuck, I was

01:37:27.980 like lump in my throat.

01:37:29.080 I was like, I know exactly what that feels like.

01:37:32.080 So you never know what we say and we may think it's something like minutiae that doesn't

01:37:38.180 important, um, but it'll affect people.

01:37:41.520 Yeah.

01:37:41.960 And it may help somebody that's on the fence say, you know what?

01:37:46.760 If, if that jackass, Tony can do it, I can do it.

01:37:51.620 Like I can get sober.

01:37:53.020 I can at least try.

01:37:54.220 And you know what?

01:37:55.020 There's a lot of paths to sobriety.

01:37:57.320 The 12 steps aren't the only way it was the way that worked for me.

01:38:00.980 Yeah.

01:38:01.540 And I don't question it and I back it up and I'll help any, I'll help somebody if they

01:38:06.120 think, you know, if they think having a crystal in front of them or something, as long as it's

01:38:10.820 not crystal meth, a Sedona crystal, if they think that's going to get them sober.

01:38:16.760 Okay.

01:38:17.100 So be it.

01:38:17.620 It's like, all right, look, if you're trying to improve your life and if you don't drink

01:38:21.160 and it's like, well, you can't be, you know, drop an acid around a crystal trying not to

01:38:26.740 drink because that's kind of, you know, you're, yeah, you got to give something into the program.

01:38:30.780 That's the thing about it.

01:38:32.260 You know, it's like you just, you have to give, you have to give up something.

01:38:35.300 That's the only reason there is any value to it to you.

01:38:38.300 Um, and especially when you're somebody who has always taken just for yourself to have

01:38:42.920 to give something up.

01:38:44.200 That's a really hard thing to do.

01:38:46.620 It is, uh, to really give it up and say, you can't, you're not going to do it, you know?

01:38:50.540 So then I want something in return.

01:38:52.320 So that activates a part of me that's going to really seek out to probably get better because

01:38:56.840 I'll be damned if I'm going to give something and not get something.

01:38:59.360 Right.

01:38:59.580 Because that's the way that I felt growing up, like, um, like if somebody cared about

01:39:06.320 me that they, it was a give and get situation.

01:39:08.740 Like it was all transactional.

01:39:11.540 Right.

01:39:11.840 You know, even if it really wasn't, it may have been.

01:39:14.280 Right.

01:39:14.480 Right.

01:39:14.660 Right.

01:39:14.780 Right.

01:39:14.860 But that's how it registered inside of me, you know, in the cash register inside of my

01:39:18.960 heart or whatever, that's how it registered that it was a transaction.

01:39:21.440 And that's not quite like that feeling when you freely give selflessly and expect nothing

01:39:27.900 in return.

01:39:28.820 Now, if something does come back in return, so be it.

01:39:30.760 But if you don't expect anything, you're good.

01:39:34.100 It's like there was times that there were times, and I noticed this after it happened

01:39:40.240 and this would be years, a couple, you know, more than five years ago, I would on Thanksgiving

01:39:45.360 sometimes, or if it was Christmas or whatever, I would just show up at the Phoenix Salvation

01:39:50.340 Army downtown and I'd be like, I've got four hours.

01:39:54.920 What do you need me to do?

01:39:56.260 Like I can put meals on the table for the people.

01:40:00.040 I can wash dishes.

01:40:01.460 I can bus tables.

01:40:02.620 I can do whatever, take garbages out, clean up.

01:40:04.300 Do spinal adjustments.

01:40:04.880 Whatever.

01:40:05.700 You probably could.

01:40:07.520 We need you to crack people's backs over here by the, by the, by the stuffing.

01:40:11.820 Pancake, this guy.

01:40:13.480 You know, it's like, so you show up and you do that.

01:40:16.260 Right.

01:40:16.660 And it's the humanly right.

01:40:18.600 It's a, it's a good thing to do if you have, if, you know, if that's something that motivates

01:40:23.780 you.

01:40:25.240 So when I've, I've done that before and then I've shared it on social media, like maybe

01:40:33.740 a picture and not bragging, just shared like a, you know, I was lucky to be able to do

01:40:38.900 this today.

01:40:39.300 Right.

01:40:39.620 Then I've done that and not shared it on social media and just shared it with some

01:40:43.760 friends.

01:40:44.160 And then I've done that and not shared it with anybody.

01:40:48.740 And it's funny because when I don't share that with anybody and I just go do it, I get

01:40:53.580 the most out of it.

01:40:54.640 Wow.

01:40:56.040 It's kind of like that when doing the right thing and doing the stuff when people aren't

01:41:00.540 watching, it's like you still do the right thing.

01:41:02.820 So it's like, as much as I want to say, well, it's my ego that wants other people to know,

01:41:09.940 look at the good stuff I'm doing.

01:41:11.620 Right.

01:41:12.680 Even if I just tell my close circle, still part of it the way I don't think that, and

01:41:18.880 you know, people that do that, there's nothing wrong with that.

01:41:21.000 No.

01:41:21.220 But I kind of looked at all three of those situations and I found that I got the most

01:41:25.580 out of it because I knew, you know, I believe in God.

01:41:29.620 So I knew God knew.

01:41:30.720 Right.

01:41:31.460 I knew.

01:41:33.060 And I was just trying to be of service to God's kids.

01:41:35.580 Yeah.

01:41:35.960 Who were, and those people, the only difference between the people, those people and me when

01:41:40.340 I was drinking was time because it was only a matter of time before I was going to be at

01:41:44.380 that table with them.

01:41:46.720 If I was lucky to be at that table with them, if I wasn't dead.

01:41:49.380 And yeah, man, it's, it's interesting to hear that, especially in a day where we live

01:41:53.400 in such a place where we want to share things and how we do it and how our communication

01:41:56.740 is, you know, our mouths are our phones now.

01:41:59.760 It's like, that's, um, it's interesting, man, but it's a nice reminder, you know, it's

01:42:04.980 a nice reminder of, uh, especially going into the holiday season, man.

01:42:08.960 Um, I got to get some photos taken.

01:42:10.540 Can you take me to Tony's pictures real quick, please, Nick?

01:42:14.800 Um, Nick forgot.

01:42:19.380 Got his charger at home.

01:42:20.500 That's okay.

01:42:21.940 Nick's running on 6%.

01:42:22.560 We're going to finish up quick.

01:42:23.900 7%.

01:42:24.300 But that's how Nick always is.

01:42:25.620 I got one right behind me.

01:42:26.960 Nick's always on about a 7%, man.

01:42:28.820 But he's, but he, the other 93%, he spent it.

01:42:31.200 He definitely spent it getting his job done.

01:42:33.580 Um, it's not because he just showed up was, you know, he spent it.

01:42:37.820 Right.

01:42:38.460 He spent it wisely.

01:42:39.280 Wow.

01:42:39.480 This is awesome, man.

01:42:41.240 So you got into this photography.

01:42:42.660 How did you tell me, take me through that, man.

01:42:44.340 You know, like the big catalyst was the SI cover.

01:42:48.720 That's the big catalyst right there.

01:42:49.940 You're right.

01:42:51.680 I'm catalyzed.

01:42:55.300 You're in ketosis right now.

01:42:57.400 Yeah.

01:42:58.020 Oh, this is interesting.

01:42:59.000 Yeah.

01:42:59.280 It's like a lot of it's compositing.

01:43:01.060 Um, so I'll think, uh, we'll have a plan.

01:43:02.680 We'll take a picture of the person in the studio and then, um, whatever the plan is,

01:43:08.420 we'll, uh, you know, I'll add the composite.

01:43:12.320 And usually I try to make nine, any composite I do, I try to make the picture, like the background

01:43:17.580 picture, the picture I took, whether it was a ship rock or whatever.

01:43:21.340 Like, Oh, I see what you're saying.

01:43:22.900 So you'll take an actual photo of a person and then put it on another photo of a, that I

01:43:25.920 took.

01:43:26.340 Right.

01:43:28.080 Interesting.

01:43:29.000 This one, like that one is cool.

01:43:31.020 Like how many, that thing got a ton of likes.

01:43:33.660 I believe this is the one that got a ton of likes, but here's the funny thing.

01:43:36.800 That was 120 weeks ago.

01:43:38.140 Okay.

01:43:38.300 So 79,000 views.

01:43:39.660 Okay.

01:43:40.780 I got home and I saw this clouds like that, like they weren't moving.

01:43:46.080 That's time-lapse, right?

01:43:46.940 And do the shot taken every say three or four seconds, five seconds.

01:43:51.840 And I took my camera and I literally all I did was I put it on top of my Jeep.

01:43:57.600 No tripod.

01:43:58.300 No, I just put it on top of my Jeep, kind of tried to make it as level as possible, set

01:44:01.840 the timer to record.

01:44:03.520 And I hit set and my camera was like a decent camera.

01:44:06.940 It's like five or 6,000 bucks.

01:44:08.060 So I was like, well, I got to hang out.

01:44:09.380 I'm not going to just like walk away from the Jeep.

01:44:12.160 I'm not in the middle of a desert where you can walk away from the Jeep.

01:44:14.760 And that thing ended up getting a ton of views.

01:44:18.200 And it's like one of it was one of the most simple and unexpected photos, you know, and

01:44:23.060 like that you can see the before and after there that of the gentleman with the white

01:44:25.980 tank on, you know, it's like, that's like when you see the final shot or that's like

01:44:31.060 the behind the scenes shot and then you see the final shot.

01:44:33.220 Oh, it's interesting.

01:44:34.340 And it's like a lot of people will say, well, I never thought it would look like that.

01:44:38.560 And a lot of times the person can't picture what I'm picturing because I have an idea and

01:44:44.660 we try to get on the same page with a lot of stuff like that one of the Milky Way there.

01:44:49.020 Yeah.

01:44:49.760 That was up there.

01:44:50.240 Oh, I was looking at the other one.

01:44:51.560 Oh, yeah.

01:44:51.940 Yeah.

01:44:52.180 You were looking at the Milky Way.

01:44:53.280 I was looking at his her anus.

01:44:57.260 Right.

01:44:57.760 Sorry.

01:44:58.400 And that's out of line.

01:44:59.380 And I'm sorry, too.

01:45:00.320 No, it ain't.

01:45:00.960 Yeah, you're right.

01:45:01.560 Because that's a planet, isn't it?

01:45:02.340 We're good.

01:45:02.740 Yeah, it is.

01:45:03.740 Well, yeah.

01:45:04.360 That's what you were talking about, wasn't it?

01:45:05.280 Yeah.

01:45:06.540 So, you know, they see the Milky Way coming out.

01:45:08.880 Wow.

01:45:09.540 So that was at Goblin Valley.

01:45:10.960 And what is that?

01:45:11.580 Lasers right there?

01:45:12.300 What is that?

01:45:12.700 Lasers?

01:45:13.600 Actually, some of them are shooting stars, but most of them are planes.

01:45:17.700 Wow.

01:45:18.200 Most of them are planes.

01:45:19.000 You can tell the difference between a shooting star and a plane by certain things.

01:45:22.480 So those are planes right there.

01:45:23.880 That's dope, dude.

01:45:25.180 Isn't that cool?

01:45:25.800 Yeah, that's crazy.

01:45:27.380 And that's in the middle of freaking nowhere.

01:45:29.820 That's really, really cool.

01:45:30.800 And I love it.

01:45:31.520 Dude, I'll have to do some pictures sometime when I get out there.

01:45:34.280 That'd be super cool to get something neat.

01:45:36.360 I think.

01:45:37.600 Get something exciting.

01:45:38.400 Yeah.

01:45:38.980 And just something that really, like, especially, you know, it would be cool to do something

01:45:43.240 with my boy.

01:45:44.600 Oh, that's a puppy you have?

01:45:45.860 Well, yeah.

01:45:46.660 He's a Newfoundland, a brown Newfoundland.

01:45:49.240 He's a really good dog.

01:45:50.520 He's the best.

01:45:51.280 So he's from what?

01:45:51.860 He's from another country?

01:45:52.860 Well, he's from the province of Newfoundland, which is the east coast of Canada.

01:45:57.860 Yeah.

01:45:58.080 I think I met someone there off the internet once.

01:46:01.700 Halifax.

01:46:02.460 Yeah.

01:46:03.320 Halifax is, yeah.

01:46:04.960 They out there.

01:46:05.780 Yeah.

01:46:05.960 They're.

01:46:06.780 It's nice over there.

01:46:07.920 Yeah.

01:46:08.400 Yeah.

01:46:08.620 It's cold off the ocean.

01:46:11.240 Yeah.

01:46:11.440 It seems really like you just marry whoever you meet first kind of thing.

01:46:15.980 Just make sure they're in your family.

01:46:17.380 Yeah.

01:46:18.500 Yeah.

01:46:18.900 Well, it's a different, you know, times out.

01:46:21.640 I think we'll see more of that coming up in the future.

01:46:24.900 We're seeing a surge of numbers.

01:46:26.720 Well, I think people are tired of just meeting people outside of their families.

01:46:29.520 Honestly, I really do.

01:46:31.360 I think people are like, oh, this isn't working out.

01:46:33.540 Yeah.

01:46:33.800 A lot of avenues of humanity aren't really working out that well.

01:46:36.160 It's kind of like a big shakeout just happened of riffraff.

01:46:40.480 Yeah.

01:46:40.860 It's crazy.

01:46:41.720 Yeah.

01:46:42.240 Like, but man, I'm glad to be a part of your tribe, Tony.

01:46:45.240 And I'm so thankful that you came in.

01:46:46.860 I'm grateful.

01:46:47.700 I got asked to be on.

01:46:48.840 And I, I, I feel I can call you a friend.

01:46:53.740 Yeah.

01:46:53.840 And, uh, it was, it was, I mean, watch a lot of your stuff.

01:46:58.400 I watched a lot of your stuff because not because, uh, not like I started watching some

01:47:02.900 of it just to make sure you were legit.

01:47:04.440 Uh huh.

01:47:04.960 Right.

01:47:05.200 Cause I mean, I just don't watch much of that, like certain genre stuff.

01:47:10.200 Right.

01:47:10.980 And when I started watching, I couldn't stop watching and I started losing track of time.

01:47:15.160 And then when I started losing track of time, when I'm doing something, I know I'm doing

01:47:18.220 something good.

01:47:19.000 Like I know I'm doing something that I'm into.

01:47:20.860 So it's like, it always kept me interested in what, like you were in the diversity of

01:47:26.180 people that you'll have on or talk to.

01:47:27.860 And then when you do the solo ones, when you just are reflecting about stuff, you say funny,

01:47:31.820 like funny stuff.

01:47:33.000 Obviously I find it hilarious.

01:47:34.220 Cause I can relate to so much of it.

01:47:35.820 It's like my movie is dumb and dumber.

01:47:37.680 Right.

01:47:38.080 It's like, I can relate to it.

01:47:39.160 Cause that's, I'm fricking Lloyd.

01:47:40.680 Right.

01:47:41.100 But it's like, it's like I catch myself.

01:47:44.360 I probably bank 20 hours of, of whether YouTube or pod.

01:47:48.260 So I'm like, no, like this, I can relate to this guy.

01:47:51.320 This guy adds like this show adds to my life.

01:47:55.140 Even the stupidity part of it adds to my life.

01:47:57.540 Cause I can relate.

01:47:58.380 Right.

01:47:58.700 But there's so many things that go deep.

01:48:01.200 Yeah.

01:48:01.820 That, you know, like will stop me in my tracks and it's hard to stop me in my tracks.

01:48:06.620 That's probably because I walk with purpose and I got shit to do and I ain't got shit to

01:48:11.100 I ain't got time to stop and just waste time.

01:48:14.100 Cause time is limited for me.

01:48:15.540 And it's interesting how, as we get older, it starts to get a little bit limited.

01:48:18.140 If somebody ever said, do you want to try to stop 20 minutes in his tracks?

01:48:20.620 I would have said, no way, please.

01:48:24.040 I'm going to send Nick in to do this job, man.

01:48:27.420 No, it's a pleasure, man.

01:48:28.380 It's a, it's a pleasure to talk to somebody.

01:48:29.840 You know, I think I needed to be around somebody today that's in the program and just, you know,

01:48:34.260 I don't think, you know, just how much I needed that in my own life today.

01:48:37.060 So I think even you being here is kind of like a service call in ways that you probably

01:48:41.400 can't even know, you know?

01:48:42.800 Right, right.

01:48:43.660 And that is reciprocal, right?

01:48:45.380 That works both ways.

01:48:46.380 Yeah.

01:48:47.000 And it's cool, man.

01:48:47.800 And yeah, I'm here for you and, and we'd love to have you back sometime and, and, uh,

01:48:52.400 and just thank you, bro.

01:48:53.680 Thanks for coming in today, man.

01:48:54.860 It's an honor.

01:48:55.460 I'm grateful.

01:48:56.160 I'm a grave.

01:48:56.860 I'm honored to, to, to be on the show.

01:48:59.440 And, and yeah, it's cool, man.

01:49:00.460 You just never know how things are happening.

01:49:01.700 And I mean, literally what happened was I saw 15 seconds of, uh, a video about you

01:49:07.680 probably like six weeks ago.

01:49:09.620 And, um, and probably the E60 special or something that did it last year, maybe.

01:49:14.080 Yeah.

01:49:14.300 And I'm not even sure what it was.

01:49:15.500 No, it's like a, no, this was just a clip.

01:49:17.780 It was just a clip on something.

01:49:18.660 And I was like, oh man, this is so interesting.

01:49:20.300 And Nick is a huge Green Bay Packers fan.

01:49:22.200 And so I was like, oh, this is, this seems like it would be something that we could talk

01:49:25.640 about.

01:49:25.780 And then once I looked more into you and saw the recovery and stuff, I was like, oh, this should

01:49:28.780 be pretty cool.

01:49:29.780 No, I appreciate it.

01:49:30.700 It's, uh, and, and I know that somebody that listens to this, it'll help somebody.

01:49:36.360 Yeah.

01:49:36.920 It'll help.

01:49:37.520 And for somebody, it'll reiterate that I am an ass.

01:49:40.240 Yeah.

01:49:40.520 For some people, it'll, it'll be like, if they can do it.

01:49:45.260 Yeah.

01:49:45.700 Why can't I do it?

01:49:46.860 Why can't I get sober?

01:49:47.880 If they can get sober.

01:49:49.400 Yeah, man.

01:49:50.060 Right?

01:49:50.860 Yeah.

01:49:51.420 I think.

01:49:51.860 And we're made of the same stuff as far as the laws of nature.

01:49:56.440 Oh, it's a simple recipe, man.

01:49:58.320 It's, and we're just pretty caught, you know.

01:50:00.000 Why not me?

01:50:01.360 Yeah.

01:50:01.740 Why not me, man?

01:50:02.440 Why not me get sober?

01:50:03.660 Why not me?

01:50:03.980 And stay sober and not have to go back.

01:50:05.840 Yeah.

01:50:06.540 That's the way I look at it.

01:50:08.820 Yeah.

01:50:09.140 I think especially right now, man, it's a good message for a lot of people, you know.

01:50:13.540 Tony Manners, thank you so much, bro.

01:50:15.000 Thanks, brother.

01:50:15.620 Now, I'm just floating on the breeze, and I feel I'm falling like these leaves.

01:50:21.840 I must be cornerstone.

01:50:26.960 Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind I found.

01:50:32.460 I can feel it in my bones, but it's gonna take a little time for me to set that parking brake and let myself unwind.

01:50:48.240 Shine that light on me I'll sit and tell you my stories Shine on me And I will find a song I will sing it just for you

01:51:10.240 And now I've been moving way too fast On a runaway train with a heavy load of my past

01:51:22.980 And these rails that I've been riding on They weren't so thin that they're damn near gone

01:51:31.320 Ladies and gentlemen, I'm Jonathan Kite, and welcome to Kite Club, a podcast where I'll be sharing thoughts on things like current events, stand-up stories, and seven ways to pleasure your partner.

01:51:46.480 The answer may shock you.

01:51:48.220 Sometimes I'll interview my friends.

01:51:50.340 Sometimes I won't.

01:51:51.960 And as always, I'll be joined by the voices in my head.

01:51:54.880 You have three new voice messages.

01:51:57.860 A lot of people are talking about Kite Club.

01:52:00.520 I've been talking about Kite Club for so long.

01:52:03.480 Longer than anybody else.

01:52:05.140 So great.

01:52:06.480 Aye, swee-ah.

01:52:08.120 Here's a deal.

01:52:09.460 Anyone who doesn't listen to Kite Club is a dodgy bloody wanker.

01:52:13.400 Jermaine.

01:52:14.640 Ho-ho!

01:52:15.440 I'll take a quarter pounder with cheese and a McFlurry.

01:52:18.460 Sorry, sir, but our ice cream machine is broken.

01:52:20.540 Ho-ho-ho!

01:52:21.820 No!

01:52:22.780 I think Tom Hanks just butt-dialed me.

01:52:25.220 Anyway, first rule of Kite Club is tell everyone about Kite Club.

01:52:29.240 Second rule of Kite Club is tell everyone about Kite Club.

01:52:33.680 Third rule.

01:52:34.620 Like and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

01:52:37.360 Or watch us on YouTube, yeah?

01:52:39.440 And yes, don't worry.

01:52:40.680 My Brad Pitt impression will get better.

This Past Weekend with Theo Von - December 07, 2020

E311 Tony Mandarich

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