This Past Weekend with Theo Von - E328 Dr. Jordan Peterson

00:00:00.680 Today's episode is brought to you by Magic Mind, the anti-procrastination sipper.

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00:00:19.980 Today's guest is his second time returning to the podcast.

00:00:24.660 He has a new book out, Beyond Order, 12 More Rules.

00:00:30.400 For life, I am almost to rule number four right now.

00:00:35.540 And man, he's just, you know, I'm gracious for his time.

00:00:42.160 You know, I'm honored to be able to talk to a thinking man.

00:00:44.780 This man is a real thinker and an orator.

00:00:48.840 And sometimes I can think and sometimes I can talk, but rarely can I do both.

00:00:53.600 He's a professor. He's high level in so many fields.

00:00:57.340 He's a best-selling author, sold over five million copies of his first book, 12 Rules for Life.

00:01:06.560 Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Jordan Peterson.

00:01:12.000 I'll see you next time.

00:01:13.000 I'll see you next time.

00:01:14.000 I'll see you next time.

00:01:19.000 Dr. Peterson, great to see you again.

00:01:45.600 Hi, Theo.

00:01:47.300 It's really good to see you, too.

00:01:48.600 It's been a while.

00:01:49.600 A long while.

00:01:50.640 Yeah, it has been a while.

00:01:51.740 Thank you for the new rules.

00:01:54.160 I got to ask you, how many more rules are there overall?

00:01:58.840 Because it's starting to add up.

00:02:00.480 Well, originally, there was a list of 42.

00:02:05.780 I published that on Quora.

00:02:07.860 I've heard that.

00:02:09.120 Yes.

00:02:09.480 And so, in principle, there's 18 more.

00:02:12.060 But of course, you know, there's an infinite number of necessary rules.

00:02:15.700 I don't think I'll publish any more rule books, however.

00:02:18.500 Yeah, I'm just letting you know, as someone who's trying to abide by the rules, we're doing

00:02:24.840 our best out here.

00:02:26.240 And we're glad that there's more.

00:02:28.260 But it's also, it's a lot.

00:02:29.440 It's a lot to do.

00:02:30.460 You know, it's a lot.

00:02:32.140 Yeah.

00:02:32.460 Yeah.

00:02:32.720 Well, and you can only beat the same horse so many times.

00:02:38.100 Yeah.

00:02:38.300 Well, I don't think that's actually a saying, but now I've invented it.

00:02:42.160 Well, I've seen, so I grew up in some areas.

00:02:44.120 They had a little bit of mild animal cruelty by us growing up.

00:02:46.660 Nothing real heavy, but, you know, probably, I'm glad some of it wasn't documented at the

00:02:51.980 time, actually.

00:02:54.680 So, I tried to get as far as I could into Beyond Order, into the new book.

00:03:01.060 And it's just, you know, it's hard.

00:03:03.500 There's a lot of, like, you have to take your time and you have to really absorb as you

00:03:08.200 go.

00:03:08.500 And there was one part, there's a lot of parts that stuck out for me, but so far there's

00:03:14.980 a part in chapter three where you talk about fear and you talk about the fog.

00:03:22.800 And I wrote down a sentence that says that sometimes you're so afraid that you will not

00:03:29.360 allow yourself to even know what you want.

00:03:33.100 I think that's very common.

00:03:34.840 It really hit me hard because sometimes I, you know, I admit I'm afraid to like, I'm

00:03:40.380 afraid to even map out, even to really write down and map out what I want.

00:03:47.180 But I don't know exactly.

00:03:48.700 I tried to really drop down and figure out what the fear was.

00:03:52.020 Like, why am I afraid?

00:03:53.320 Like, and I, and I had some, I've had some trouble really figuring that out.

00:03:57.200 Like, am I afraid that I'll have to then do it?

00:04:00.220 Am I afraid that I'll then feel inadequate based upon what I really want and where I

00:04:04.760 currently am?

00:04:05.620 Um, so I just wanted to, you to maybe expound on that a little bit and, and just kind of

00:04:11.980 share, like, what did you think?

00:04:13.260 Why do I get afraid to, to really admit, even admit to myself what I really want?

00:04:20.360 Well, I think you put your finger on two, um, of the fundamental reasons.

00:04:25.220 Um, if you don't allow yourself to know what you want, then you haven't established your

00:04:33.480 conditions for failure, right?

00:04:36.340 I mean, if you, if you're aiming at a goal and the goal is really clear, then you can,

00:04:45.080 sorry, I lost you.

00:04:47.320 Oh, you did?

00:04:48.540 Yes.

00:04:50.880 Just visually, or can you still hear me?

00:04:52.720 I, I don't know.

00:04:55.220 I can hear you just, okay, there we go.

00:04:58.780 Sorry about that.

00:05:00.040 No worries.

00:05:00.580 I might've been just being still too.

00:05:02.120 Somehow I might get a little still.

00:05:03.060 No, it was, it was the zoom, zoom minimized.

00:05:05.980 Okay.

00:05:06.100 Let's forget about that.

00:05:07.120 We can go back to this.

00:05:08.560 Um, if you know what you want, then you know, when you're failing, if you don't allow yourself

00:05:15.700 to know what you want, you can keep that foggy.

00:05:18.720 Um, if you don't set out the conditions for your success, then you can avoid your responsibility

00:05:23.720 because again, that's not clear.

00:05:25.280 And the problem with wanting something is that in all probability, you're going to have

00:05:29.240 to work for it.

00:05:29.980 You're going to have to make sacrifices.

00:05:31.360 And it's certainly possible that you want to avoid that.

00:05:34.820 Um, you, you, you might be afraid to make it clear because other people could deny it

00:05:40.600 to you too, which is something I write about a fair bit in that chapter.

00:05:43.580 Um, the problem is, and, and failing to make any of that clear protects you right now, but

00:05:53.200 it's really hard on you over the medium to long-term because if you don't make it clear

00:05:58.960 to yourself what you want or to other people, the probability that you're just going to stumble

00:06:04.280 into it is pretty low.

00:06:05.760 And, and you can put that off indefinitely day after day, but the problem with that is

00:06:12.160 that you age while you're doing that.

00:06:14.240 And there's a, obviously a price to be paid for that.

00:06:18.640 So that chapter, that's chapter three, do not hide things in the fog.

00:06:23.140 I mean, it's a, it's a warning about failing to pay attention.

00:06:29.700 You know, knowledge emerges in a very strange way.

00:06:32.680 It, it emerges, obviously, when we learn something, we started out by not knowing it.

00:06:38.780 And so what that means is that knowledge goes through a transformation process from being

00:06:44.560 absolutely not there to being explicit and fully detailed.

00:06:49.920 And one step of that process is emotion.

00:06:53.740 And so, for example, you might find yourself frustrated, disappointed about the events of

00:06:58.640 the day, but be unable to exactly specify why.

00:07:01.540 That's extremely common.

00:07:03.160 You know, you go home to your partner and you'd be in a bad mood and, you know, you'll

00:07:07.220 snap at them for something and they'll say, well, what's up with you?

00:07:10.240 And you'll say, well, nothing.

00:07:11.780 You're just being annoying when it's perfectly clear to both of you that there is actually

00:07:15.340 something up with you.

00:07:16.980 And then that disappointment and frustration, anger and sadness, let's say, or anxiety is a

00:07:22.460 sign that something isn't right.

00:07:24.300 But it isn't like, it isn't necessarily that you're repressing knowledge of what's not right.

00:07:30.560 It's that you just, you actually don't know.

00:07:32.920 And the emotion is the first step in the process by which that knowledge emerges.

00:07:38.140 And you might have to sit and think and talk to your partner or to a friend for God only

00:07:44.360 knows how long before you're actually going to put your finger on what it is that you're

00:07:48.300 upset about and it could be very far removed from whatever happened to trigger you in the

00:07:54.700 moment.

00:07:55.840 And so that's the fog and you can keep things in the fog just by not doing that.

00:08:01.300 It's really easy.

00:08:02.140 It's no more difficult than just sitting there doing nothing because creating knowledge is

00:08:07.520 active and difficult.

00:08:09.380 Yeah.

00:08:09.660 Well, it's, you know, we've created such a perfect fog these days.

00:08:16.720 Like really the fog has been, it's become such a, the fog is such a business.

00:08:22.380 Every little thing that they can, that, that can be created to take away your attention from

00:08:27.600 or that can take away our attention from figuring out who we are or like kind of spelunking inside

00:08:34.100 of ourselves and trying to get some answers has really been created.

00:08:38.600 It's almost, it's pretty masterful how much has been created out here on the outside to keep

00:08:44.100 our attention, um, away from delving inside of ourselves.

00:08:47.920 Well, you know, attention is the basic currency, right?

00:08:52.120 Everyone fights for it and it's incredibly valuable.

00:08:55.960 And it, it certainly is the case that it's also very tempting to turn your attention to

00:09:03.700 things that grasp your short-term interest rather than say, pursuing the causes of negative

00:09:11.040 emotion.

00:09:11.460 That's a, that's a good example.

00:09:12.900 And of course we have massive corporations working night and day to continually attract

00:09:19.240 our attention.

00:09:19.740 And there's something sinister about that, obviously, but, but you can't exactly lay responsibility

00:09:26.260 at their feet because there isn't that, there's a tremendous overlap between educating people,

00:09:33.140 informing them and, and making them attend to you.

00:09:38.120 And, and the lines between all of those things are very foggy, let's say, and difficult to

00:09:44.900 lay out.

00:09:45.940 It's certainly the case that one of the ways that you can keep yourself in a fog about yourself

00:09:51.200 is by distracting, is through distraction with external, uh, with anything in the external

00:09:58.420 world.

00:09:58.900 And obviously computer technology, cell phones, games, well, not negative in and of themselves,

00:10:06.360 perhaps are there at any moment to distract you at any moment.

00:10:12.500 Yeah.

00:10:12.680 There's the, yeah.

00:10:13.220 The little things that are time consumers like it's, yeah, there's companies, there are

00:10:17.160 businesses where that is their, that's their, that's their business is to get your attention.

00:10:22.020 Everything's trying to get our attention.

00:10:24.060 Sometimes I worry that the forces that are out there that have like started to, you know,

00:10:29.920 really create algorithms even on how to get our attention and how to keep it, that those

00:10:35.180 forces are stronger than our human abilities to, to keep them away from us.

00:10:42.000 Do you feel like that that's true?

00:10:43.620 Or do you feel like that that's just a fear?

00:10:45.080 I think I really do believe that that's true.

00:10:46.800 I look, as far as I can tell, we are teaching computers to, to read our minds as fast as we

00:10:55.160 possibly can.

00:10:56.540 And they're way better at it than they were 10 years ago.

00:10:59.900 And they're going to be so much better at it in five years that we won't even be able

00:11:03.200 to imagine it.

00:11:03.980 And when I say read our minds, I'm not talking about something magical, but.

00:11:10.620 Oh yeah.

00:11:11.280 For example.

00:11:11.700 You're not talking about like, guess what's happening.

00:11:13.200 It's not like, like they're going to guess what we're thinking or guess what we want

00:11:17.020 for dinner or anything like that.

00:11:18.280 Probably.

00:11:19.160 Well, they might, but they won't do it by directly reading our brainwaves or anything like that.

00:11:25.500 They'll, they're already algorithms that target advertisements to send at you are pretty good

00:11:31.260 at deciding what it is that you're motivated to pursue.

00:11:34.880 And now.

00:11:35.980 Oh yeah.

00:11:36.420 I actually just got an ad on my phone for your new book, actually.

00:11:39.360 So yeah.

00:11:39.800 Oh, well, good.

00:11:40.460 So I'm involved in the same process, the same nefarious process.

00:11:44.280 I'm just joking.

00:11:45.220 Go on.

00:11:45.960 I've read that, that I think it's Facebook, but I might be wrong about this, that owns

00:11:50.240 Oculus and the headset, the VR headset company.

00:11:54.020 Now you can, you can track eye movements with a VR headset and psychologists use the tracking

00:12:03.340 of eye movements to map attention in high detail.

00:12:07.440 Now, look, if you look at our eyes, you see that there's a colored circle and a dark circle

00:12:14.020 in the middle, and then that's surrounded by white.

00:12:16.820 And that makes your eye very visible to other people, animals too, but to other people particularly.

00:12:23.320 Human eyes are quite unique in that regard.

00:12:25.460 And it looks like we've evolved to have highly visible eyes.

00:12:30.640 And the reason for that is that other, we communicate with other people and they can

00:12:35.780 read our motivations by watching our eyes.

00:12:38.360 So if you stand on the corner and you look up at nothing in the sky and you stand there

00:12:44.460 long enough, someone else will join you.

00:12:46.760 And then if there's two people, then there'll be 10 right away.

00:12:49.560 And the reason for that is that we, and this is again, something uniquely human, we attend

00:12:57.040 to where other people point their eyes, assuming that if they're interested in it, we might

00:13:02.920 be interested in it too.

00:13:04.960 And so that's, and human beings are visual animals.

00:13:08.100 About half our brain is, is taken up with visual processing.

00:13:11.680 We're much more visual than virtually any other animal.

00:13:13.760 And so computers are soon going to be able to track where we place our eyes, which of

00:13:19.120 course, advertisers are incredibly interested in.

00:13:21.840 And that's going to speed up the ability of, of high powered computational devices to understand

00:13:28.760 human beings as a group, but also each of us individually to an immense degree, immense

00:13:34.560 degree.

00:13:35.540 And so, and I, I think we're probably 10 years away from computers that understand us better

00:13:41.880 than we understand ourselves.

00:13:43.760 AI machines are going to get extremely good at this because it's so lucrative to, to be

00:13:50.020 able to gauge attention.

00:13:52.180 There's, there's nothing that's more valuable than that.

00:13:54.840 And so.

00:13:56.160 Do you feel like it should, do you feel like there should be, it's hard to say there should

00:14:02.060 be legislation because I hate to put anything on the, uh, you know, that the government, it's

00:14:06.940 the government's responsibility, but should there be like rules or legislation between

00:14:13.000 allowing computers and AI to get that advanced?

00:14:18.260 Or is it still just fall on the feet of us as humans just to battle kind of the dark arts

00:14:25.160 of, of, of these machines that can sort of like take us into a trance and then monetize

00:14:33.260 the trance at the same time?

00:14:35.940 I think, I think that legislation in some senses, it's going to be playing catch up and it's going

00:14:42.240 to be farther and farther behind all the time because this is moving so fast and with such

00:14:47.100 power and it's so distributed that no one is going to be able to even keep track of it,

00:14:53.480 much less regulated.

00:14:54.620 I mean, the, the, the, the interconnected environment is changing so rapidly that even

00:15:00.520 if you're reasonably tech savvy, you can't keep up with all the major changes.

00:15:05.360 And there's, there's no evidence whatsoever that that's going to do anything but accelerate.

00:15:11.820 And so I can't see how legislators have the ghost of a chance at keeping up with this,

00:15:18.300 even if they knew what to target or what to legislate and you know, more and more engineers

00:15:23.900 are, I think China now graduates more engineers every year than the United States has engineers.

00:15:30.000 Oh yeah.

00:15:30.720 China, you could be eight years old in China and be a damn engineer.

00:15:33.320 I've been over there and I've seen a, bro, I've seen a six-year-old build a damn bridge

00:15:36.860 in front of me.

00:15:37.420 You know what I'm saying?

00:15:38.520 They're highly capable.

00:15:40.340 Yes.

00:15:40.780 Well, and lots of other cultures are coming online very rapidly.

00:15:43.840 And so we're at, well, and there's no shortage of unbelievably proficient amateurs online

00:15:50.300 as well and, and, and programming.

00:15:52.860 And, and so we ain't seen nothing yet.

00:15:56.000 And I really do believe computers are going to, your computer is going to understand you

00:15:59.940 so well.

00:16:00.400 I think it, it won't be long till it knows what you're going to do more accurately than

00:16:07.180 you do.

00:16:07.680 I think that's already true to some degree, but.

00:16:10.300 Well, then we're at a real loss because then if I've been afraid to make a plan for myself

00:16:14.800 in my life and I've been afraid and I've been living in the fog and I've been just, you

00:16:20.500 know, kind of sidestepping, really putting my fucking pants on as a human and taking some

00:16:29.940 action.

00:16:30.760 If I'm in that fog and then the computer is able to figure out what I'm going to do before

00:16:36.820 I've even done it, but I haven't even made a plan, then surely the computer is going

00:16:40.320 to make a plan for me.

00:16:41.380 It feels like.

00:16:42.020 I think the computer is making a plan for you all the time already.

00:16:45.940 By default, look, that's exactly what advertising is, is advertising makes a plan for you.

00:16:52.080 It's, there's no difference between those two things, except maybe one of sophistication.

00:16:56.180 So, you know, I mean, when you're watching something and an ad pops up, that's a little

00:17:02.020 world that you could visit and the advertiser obviously wants you to visit that.

00:17:06.880 And the problem there, because you might think, well, it would be really good.

00:17:10.460 The computer can help you make a plan.

00:17:11.900 But I think what's more likely to happen, because at least to begin with, the computer

00:17:16.640 is going to be paid, so to speak, by the advertisers to capitalize on your short-term impulsivity,

00:17:22.420 is that ever more attractive distractions are going to be dangled in front of you.

00:17:29.020 And that's likely to keep you in the fog.

00:17:33.880 And what can I do to battle the fog?

00:17:36.680 Like, what can I do, you know, as a human to retain my humanity as things get more tech

00:17:46.760 and more, and as tech becomes far smarter in some ways, you know, in technical ways than

00:17:55.320 I'll ever be?

00:17:57.420 Well, you know, I wish I knew the answer to that.

00:18:01.160 I don't, partly because the landscape that's unfolding in front of us, because it changes

00:18:07.500 so rapidly, it's unpredictable.

00:18:08.940 You know, other rules in my two books address that to some degree.

00:18:14.660 I think your best bet, the best bet you have virtually all the time, is to try not to lie

00:18:21.240 to yourself.

00:18:22.120 And in my first book, 12 Rules for Life, I said, do not lie, or no, I said the rule was

00:18:30.780 tell the truth, or at least do not lie.

00:18:33.380 Because, you know, you might, I mean, can you tell the truth?

00:18:37.480 You'd have to know the truth, you know, you might be able to tell some partial truths,

00:18:41.620 but you can't tell the truth.

00:18:43.320 But you can not say things that you know to be false.

00:18:48.300 And in the second book, the new one, rule five is do not do things that you hate, which

00:18:54.860 is also a kind of lie.

00:18:56.580 And I don't mean, don't do difficult things like get out of bed at six in the morning and

00:19:02.080 exercise, you know, you might say, well, I hate going to the gym, and that isn't what

00:19:05.700 I mean.

00:19:05.960 You don't really hate going to the gym, you just find it difficult.

00:19:10.340 I'm thinking more that you might observe yourself engaging in activities that you find

00:19:16.080 despicable, even right then, but certainly later when your conscience dwells on them,

00:19:21.400 and that you should stop doing that.

00:19:23.500 Because that's a form of behavioral lie.

00:19:26.880 I think the only thing we have to orient ourselves is, as individuals, is our willingness to live

00:19:35.820 a life that's relatively free of unnecessary deceit, or of deceit at all.

00:19:42.920 The eleventh rule is do not allow yourself to become deceitful, resentful, or arrogant.

00:19:47.580 I might have those out of order, but it's concentrating on the same sort of idea.

00:19:53.660 You know, it's partly, here's another way of looking at it.

00:19:58.200 Your attention moves around for reasons that you don't quite understand.

00:20:03.400 Those reasons are unconscious.

00:20:05.780 You can tell that, to some degree, because you can't make yourself pay attention to something

00:20:12.760 that you aren't interested in.

00:20:14.600 Well, you can, but you really have to work at it.

00:20:17.020 You know, it's really easy to pay attention to something you're interested in.

00:20:20.320 That's not difficult at all.

00:20:22.840 In fact, it's enjoyable, whereas paying attention to something that you're not interested in

00:20:26.860 requires will and effort.

00:20:29.560 And so you can see that there's unconscious mechanisms at work there, because you can't

00:20:33.680 control them.

00:20:34.940 Now, the danger to deceit is that you'll pathologize those unconscious mechanisms.

00:20:42.980 Because as you practice something, imagine you practice a particular form of untruth.

00:20:47.440 You tell yourself a story that you know to be false.

00:20:50.320 And that becomes your habitual way of looking at the world.

00:20:54.120 Well, what that means is that you're forming habits that are unconscious, because habits

00:20:58.060 become unconscious.

00:20:59.240 And then they skew the way the world appears to you.

00:21:02.900 It'll pull your interest in places that aren't good for you to go, that aren't associated with

00:21:08.700 the real world.

00:21:10.680 And so that's not to be wished for.

00:21:13.940 That's because you don't want to be out of sync with your automatic self.

00:21:20.680 That's bad news.

00:21:22.780 And lying definitely does that, especially if it's habitual.

00:21:26.800 Because it creates what, a false truth?

00:21:28.620 Well, it creates a false truth and a false you.

00:21:33.320 Right.

00:21:33.800 You know, because there's different kinds of memory.

00:21:36.080 There's the memory that's associated with the way the world is, and that's called episodic

00:21:41.320 memory.

00:21:41.820 And then there's another, or declarative memory.

00:21:44.840 There's another kind of memory that's memory for action.

00:21:48.240 And so that's what you use when you play tennis, or ride a bike, or play the piano.

00:21:53.580 You know how to move your hands, and you move your body.

00:21:56.580 And that's a kind of memory as well.

00:22:00.560 And you don't want to pathologize either of those, because then you become, you see, once

00:22:07.580 the deceit has become habitual, then you're its victim.

00:22:13.300 You're its pawn, because it's automatic.

00:22:15.840 And that's a terrible fate.

00:22:19.440 You don't want that.

00:22:20.520 You really don't want that.

00:22:22.160 I think your best defense against anything that's trying to hijack your attention is something

00:22:28.940 like honesty.

00:22:29.860 It's also very useful, and I stress this quite a bit in this second book, to surround yourself

00:22:36.280 with people who want the best for you, and who care for you, because they can also help

00:22:40.960 keep you on the straight and narrow path.

00:22:43.960 And, you know, that's not a matter of some trivial, moral injunction.

00:22:49.560 It's, there's terrible places you can end up.

00:22:52.580 Oh, yeah.

00:22:53.120 Oh, definitely.

00:22:54.260 I've been to some of those places, and it's, yeah.

00:22:56.840 And you don't get any sleep when you're there either, I'll tell you that.

00:23:00.380 Right, right.

00:23:01.560 Another indication that your unconscious mind is not working properly at some point, right?

00:23:06.860 Because the sleep-wake cycle gets dysregulated.

00:23:10.480 That's very unpleasant, to say the least.

00:23:13.300 Dr. Peterson, so when I, so getting back, like, to the fog and, like, and, like, and

00:23:17.320 just the things that can take away our attention and how valuable our attention is, what can

00:23:22.720 I do, like, to kind of, are we going to start to see, like, new parts of, like, new, like,

00:23:28.780 small societies form of people that don't want to be influenced by technology or, you know,

00:23:35.940 what do you, what do you feel like some of the future looks like as far as trying to retain

00:23:41.560 some sense of, of holding on to my attention and using it for myself as opposed to letting

00:23:50.360 it be used by outside influences?

00:23:52.760 Does that make any sense or not?

00:23:55.140 Yes, yes.

00:23:56.020 Well, look, there's another rule, I suppose, a dictum, perhaps, that if you don't have your

00:24:04.120 own story, then you're going to be a bit player in someone else's story.

00:24:08.400 Okay, so let's talk about that fog again.

00:24:10.660 So let's say because of the reasons you already laid out, you don't want to make your conditions

00:24:16.140 for failure conscious because then you know when you're failing and that hurts.

00:24:19.840 You don't want to make your plans for the future too clear because then if you, then if

00:24:27.040 you don't attain what you're looking for, it's very clear that you've lost it, which

00:24:32.000 is somewhat different than failure, right?

00:24:34.560 And then there's also the problem that if you make your motives clear to other people,

00:24:39.560 then they really have the ammunition to hurt you because, like, I can hurt you by depriving

00:24:45.480 you of what you want, but I can hurt you even better if I really know what you want and can

00:24:50.580 deprive you of that.

00:24:51.640 So you have reasons to keep these things unclear.

00:24:54.600 But then, and then you, but the problem then is, is that you don't have a direction that's

00:25:00.180 powerful, right?

00:25:01.660 Because you're not consulting yourself, watching yourself, learning about yourself, figuring

00:25:06.900 out who you are and figuring out what kind of route through life you would have to take

00:25:12.320 to be engaged, okay?

00:25:13.600 So then you get weak because you're not integrated.

00:25:16.260 You're all over the place.

00:25:17.300 You're scattered.

00:25:18.940 Well, then anybody who is, has power for one reason or another can compete with you for

00:25:28.400 your own attention and win.

00:25:31.040 And so if you don't have your own plan, painful as it is to develop one, partly because you

00:25:36.100 have to take your own inadequacies into account.

00:25:38.280 Oh yes, and you also mentioned, you know, you, you posit an ideal, this is what I want

00:25:42.900 or this is who I could be.

00:25:44.120 The farther away that is from you, the more inadequate you feel in relationship to it.

00:25:49.500 You know, so that's another reason to avoid it.

00:25:51.760 But yes, well, that's why every ideal is a judge.

00:25:55.240 There's no getting away from that.

00:25:56.800 Now, if it's too much for you, I might say, well, make a lesser ideal, like try to pursue

00:26:02.120 something that doesn't intimidate you into paralysis.

00:26:05.200 Right.

00:26:05.360 Start with something closer that's more manageable, huh?

00:26:07.560 So you can even prove to yourself that you can do it.

00:26:10.320 Exactly.

00:26:10.940 Well, what you really want to do is you want to lay out a plan that has a pretty high end

00:26:17.120 aim, but that also consists of steps that aren't too intimidating.

00:26:22.160 So you have to ask yourself, I would like to do this.

00:26:27.280 I should do it.

00:26:29.100 But would I do it?

00:26:30.840 And the answer is likely to be no, often, because you know what you're like.

00:26:35.160 You're supposed to go to the gym, but you don't.

00:26:37.580 It's like, okay, well, maybe you won't go to the gym, but maybe you'd walk half a block

00:26:41.740 every second day, something like that.

00:26:43.840 And you have to ask yourself, I write about this in the first chapter about the advantage

00:26:48.140 of being a fool.

00:26:49.540 You know, if you notice that you're not so good at something, then you can calibrate down

00:26:54.620 the goal until a fool like you can manage it.

00:26:57.280 And then you can attain it, and then you're not quite so much of a fool.

00:27:01.600 And so, okay, so you have to build a plan.

00:27:04.320 I have a tool for that that I often recommend for people called self-authoring.

00:27:10.000 Yeah, I'm very familiar with it.

00:27:12.380 Okay.

00:27:12.860 Well, and it was developed in an attempt to help people write out, well, an account of

00:27:20.420 themselves, past, present, and future, but relevant to this discussion, is to make a plan.

00:27:24.980 It's like, what is it that you need to thrive in the world, or at least not to become bitter?

00:27:30.520 And if you don't have your own plan that you're committed to, right, and honestly committed

00:27:35.140 to, what that means is that you will be the pawn of other people's decisions.

00:27:40.300 Especially now more than ever, it feels like.

00:27:42.400 Do you think that that's true?

00:27:44.120 Well, that certainly seems to be the conclusion we're reaching in the course of this conversation.

00:27:49.380 It's like, as the powers around you become more and more invasive, but also of more

00:27:55.840 utility to you, to some degree.

00:27:57.440 I mean, we don't want to be completely negative about computational power.

00:28:00.980 Right, of course.

00:28:01.460 We wouldn't be having this discussion without it.

00:28:03.440 But as the forces around you have more and more capacity to grip your attention, it stands

00:28:10.320 to reason that you're going to have to be the captain of your own ship to a greater and

00:28:15.320 greater degree.

00:28:16.100 Otherwise, you'll fall prey to those who wish to monetize your attention.

00:28:23.780 So it's time to make a plan.

00:28:25.800 If you haven't made a plan, it's time to have a plan.

00:28:27.980 It's a really good time to have a goal and to have a plan.

00:28:32.440 Yes, I think it's always been the case that it's been good to have a plan.

00:28:37.740 But, you know, I think it's particularly the case when things are changing so rapidly around

00:28:42.600 you, too, you know, because then it's your own ship.

00:28:45.460 You have a place for you in this maelstrom of constantly transforming opportunities and

00:28:52.340 possibilities.

00:28:52.940 I do think, it seems to me, that we're increasingly being called upon to act as independent moral

00:29:01.680 agents.

00:29:02.360 Now, you know, informed by tradition, obviously, because it's very difficult to become wise

00:29:08.560 all on your own.

00:29:10.360 But, and I suppose it's partly because we have more possibility and more power.

00:29:15.800 So we have to take more responsibility.

00:29:18.100 I can't see a way out of that.

00:29:20.460 Right.

00:29:21.160 Yeah, I think that makes sense.

00:29:22.440 I mean, and it's hard if we think about our own story.

00:29:25.520 It's scary to make ourselves the hero of our own story in a lot of ways.

00:29:29.420 It feels, I mean, it feels like what we would want to do, but it feels scary because you

00:29:35.040 see what a hero has to do.

00:29:37.140 You know, you see what he has to give up.

00:29:38.320 Yes, well, it also seems presumptuous, doesn't it?

00:29:40.140 You know, like, who are you to be a hero?

00:29:42.780 Well, you know.

00:29:43.780 Used to, maybe now it feels like it's a necessity almost, though, a little bit more.

00:29:47.640 It starts to feel like it's becoming more of a necessity that if I want to really get

00:29:53.880 through this and not only get through it, but do it well and be a leader and be someone

00:29:59.020 who can affect others and be positive and be a part of what's good, then I need to, at

00:30:06.440 some point, admit that maybe I do want to be my own hero, you know?

00:30:10.980 Well, yes, well, and I also think you have to deeply consider the alternatives.

00:30:16.940 You know, it's, so, as a clinician, I frequently saw that my clients were afraid to make a move.

00:30:23.980 I talk about that a little bit.

00:30:25.560 Oh, yeah.

00:30:25.900 I think it's in, that's in chapter five again, do not do what you hate, which is full of sort

00:30:30.840 of practical advice, I suppose, in relationship to career.

00:30:33.580 Where people are often afraid to make a change, to make a plan, to make a decision, to take

00:30:39.120 responsibility, and the right response to that is, yes, no wonder you're afraid.

00:30:46.040 It's not, this is frightening.

00:30:47.480 People, you know, they want to get a new job, so they have to, they have to format and update

00:30:54.840 their CVs, their resumes.

00:30:56.840 Well, just that alone is, is enough to stop many, many people cold, because, first of all,

00:31:05.780 you have to gather up all that information, and then, second, you have to make a coherent

00:31:10.040 narrative account of your life, and third, you have to face all the things that you did

00:31:14.520 in the past that didn't work out the way they were supposed to.

00:31:17.980 You have to take account of the gaps in your, in your resume.

00:31:21.760 Like, to make a resume is to take a cold, hard look at yourself.

00:31:25.840 It's like, ooh, God, who the hell wants to do that?

00:31:28.180 Like an inventory, kind of.

00:31:30.100 Yes, exactly.

00:31:31.260 And, but, but, and so you're afraid of that, and you put it off, and you put it off, and

00:31:35.740 Oh, yeah.

00:31:36.420 And you can't say, well, don't be afraid of that.

00:31:38.880 What you can say, I think, that's more useful is, okay, you don't like your job.

00:31:44.540 You don't like your current position.

00:31:46.100 You don't like your status.

00:31:47.160 You don't like your income.

00:31:48.340 You don't like your trajectory.

00:31:50.040 That's why you want to change.

00:31:51.760 Okay, well, let's say you don't make your resume.

00:31:55.140 Then what does the world look like in five years?

00:31:58.360 Like, frightening as it is to make a plan, unhappy stasis just disintegrates.

00:32:05.240 Right.

00:32:05.680 And so, one of the things we do do in the self-authoring program, in the future authoring program, is

00:32:10.980 say, well, if you deteriorated according to your own vices, and that went, that got out

00:32:18.820 of hand, what would that look like five years down the road?

00:32:23.000 You know, everyone knows.

00:32:24.280 Oh, yeah.

00:32:24.640 Some people, some people flirt with alcoholism or drug abuse or, um, or, uh, sex addiction.

00:32:33.940 Yes, yes, yes.

00:32:35.280 That's right.

00:32:36.040 Fractured relationships.

00:32:37.520 Snacks, even candy, whatever.

00:32:39.460 Mm-hmm.

00:32:40.020 Mm-hmm.

00:32:40.440 And then, you know, you have a sense in your mind of what you'd be like if you let yourself

00:32:44.340 go.

00:32:44.720 Oh, I'd be sick, man.

00:32:46.360 I'd be under a bridge or something.

00:32:47.920 I'd probably be behind like a, I don't know, living behind a Tim Hortons or something, you

00:32:52.720 know, some type of place.

00:32:53.580 I'm trying to make it local to you, but like some, yeah, I'd be living, you know, I'd just

00:32:56.560 be doing drugs or just probably listening to Aerosmith.

00:32:59.780 I'd be outdoors, I bet.

00:33:01.120 No real home.

00:33:02.560 I'd have no family.

00:33:03.680 Yeah, so for you, it's a vision of homelessness and, and substance abuse.

00:33:08.380 Yeah.

00:33:09.220 Yeah, well, you got to ask yourself like, okay, think about that.

00:33:12.480 Is that what you want?

00:33:13.400 And I don't, I mean, think about it.

00:33:15.500 Imagine that that's what awaits you.

00:33:17.860 Well, then you have a better thing to be afraid of.

00:33:20.900 It's like afraid as I am of, of gripping my own destiny.

00:33:26.040 Here's the alternative.

00:33:27.480 Right, and now you've created the, now you've created a reality of what that looks like.

00:33:31.660 So now you have something to battle against, right?

00:33:33.980 Yes, exactly.

00:33:35.140 Right.

00:33:35.320 You need, part of, part of being motivated is to be afraid of the proper things.

00:33:40.620 You know, afraid as you might be of success and fair enough, it's possible that you should

00:33:45.800 be more afraid of stagnation and failure, but you have to make those things real for

00:33:50.620 you before they have any power.

00:33:52.560 Yeah.

00:33:52.720 As you're talking, I'm even realizing that if I don't make the, the, the lowest, if I

00:33:58.160 don't make the reality of what could happen if I don't take care of myself and if I were

00:34:02.980 to like devolve and disintegrate into my worst place, if I don't make that a reality, it almost

00:34:08.800 lets me stay in the fog even more because now even the, there's not even the, the end

00:34:16.300 hasn't even been created.

00:34:17.580 I've left it all just so vague that I can just kind of meander around.

00:34:21.480 It's like, um, it's, it reminds me a little bit, I didn't want to quit smoking for a while

00:34:28.180 because if I quit smoking, then I would have to actually then do something else good for

00:34:35.720 myself or I would have to then be a non-smoker and a non-smoker might then go for a run or

00:34:41.820 he might like, you know, uh, then achieve a different goal.

00:34:46.300 So one of the reasons I realized for a while that I didn't quit smoking was because if I

00:34:52.580 was real honest with myself, I wanted to always have an excuse of why I couldn't do other stuff.

00:34:58.460 Right.

00:34:59.080 I think that's a really good, well, that's the kind of observation that's necessary.

00:35:02.920 So you've made three observations so far about, you know, sort of nefarious dark motives that

00:35:09.420 keep you down.

00:35:10.420 You said, well, there's the unwillingness to take responsibility.

00:35:14.240 Um, the, the fear of the distance between you and your ideal.

00:35:18.760 And then now you had another one, which is, well, it isn't just quitting smoking because

00:35:23.020 that's part of the decision to be healthier.

00:35:25.280 Well, what does that mean?

00:35:26.720 Well, it doesn't just mean quit smoking.

00:35:28.560 It implies other things.

00:35:30.040 And, and those things are effortful in the moment, right?

00:35:34.080 They pay off in the medium to long-term, but they're effortful in the moment.

00:35:37.440 And so, and it, it, it, that, your ability to do that is exactly part and parcel of that

00:35:46.600 process of pulling things out of the fog.

00:35:48.940 It's like, and it, these are really good questions to ask yourself.

00:35:51.860 It's like, well, what, what reasons do I have that I don't want to admit that are stopping

00:35:58.120 me from doing those things that I want to or know that I should?

00:36:02.120 I'm afraid of judgment.

00:36:03.320 Mostly usually afraid of judgment.

00:36:06.280 Yeah.

00:36:07.080 Yes.

00:36:07.920 Yes.

00:36:08.460 I'm afraid I'll fail.

00:36:10.180 Uh, I'm afraid I'll realize that I'm not good enough or I was never capable enough in

00:36:14.880 the first place.

00:36:16.480 Right.

00:36:17.000 That's a really big one right there.

00:36:18.620 It's like, um, I watched this Simpsons episode recently where Bart had to get a C on one class

00:36:25.520 or, or be held back.

00:36:27.360 And he actually studied for like two days and then he failed and he broke down and he

00:36:33.440 said, well, my God, this is so terrible because I was failing before, but I wasn't trying.

00:36:38.180 And so I could always, it wasn't really failure because I never tried.

00:36:43.140 I never tried, but this time I really tried and yet I failed.

00:36:47.620 And well, it turns out that, you know, it works out for him in the end, but that's not

00:36:53.400 the point.

00:36:53.860 I thought it was a very apropos episode because it is much different to fail when you've gone

00:36:59.260 all in, you know, and that's, that's very frightening.

00:37:02.340 Where does that fear come from inside of us?

00:37:04.560 Is that a fear that's just built into like, it's part of the human journey as a human.

00:37:09.940 It's part of the journey of the spirit.

00:37:12.500 Um, is that something that's just built into us from birth kind of, or do you think that

00:37:18.840 some of that fear is learned over time?

00:37:20.980 What do you, what do you think about that?

00:37:23.340 Well, I think, I think fear of failure is part and parcel of, of being human.

00:37:29.640 Um, the particulars of that can be changed a lot by, by, uh, by your upbringing.

00:37:35.660 I mean, if you were punished unduly for failure or perhaps protected too much from it, so you

00:37:41.440 have no, uh, experience with it, then that can certainly elevate the danger.

00:37:49.060 Your, your own temperament can do that too, because, you know, sometimes, some people are

00:37:53.740 more prone to catastrophize as a consequence of relatively trivial failures, and that can

00:37:59.160 bring them down.

00:38:00.280 So, but we are future oriented creatures and that's a deep part of our nature.

00:38:06.600 And so, that fear of failure, fear of judgment, all the things that you've raised so far, um,

00:38:14.220 are, are, they're deeply central to our nature.

00:38:18.000 So, you also mentioned, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about how

00:38:23.440 not clarifying your future goals can keep you in the fog.

00:38:30.260 You pointed out you can do that equally with the future that is the failure, and I think

00:38:36.760 that's equally true, is by, you know, you're smoking, and you can not think about that.

00:38:45.200 It's quite easy to not think about it.

00:38:46.820 It'll plague you now and then, but to think about something, generally speaking, is effortful,

00:38:51.540 and often you also have to talk to other people, and so you have to put some time and energy

00:38:57.500 into it, whereas not thinking about something is pretty easy.

00:39:01.120 And so, you'll be, you know, you wake up in the morning and cough and feel terrible because

00:39:07.860 you smoked way too much.

00:39:08.960 And if you thought about that for a little while, you could see quite quickly where that's

00:39:14.200 probably leading, but you can just not do that, distract yourself, think about something

00:39:20.340 else, um, and that's not repression.

00:39:23.200 Yep, play a game, think about a, think about a friend, think about a, yeah, do it.

00:39:27.620 There's so many things you could do, you know.

00:39:31.160 So, then you leave yourself undefined.

00:39:32.860 Well, the problem with all of that, too, is that I think then, in some sense, you're destined

00:39:38.900 to fail in the most fundamental sense, because unless you believe that you can get what you

00:39:44.660 want without being sophisticated about failure and being sophisticated about success, and

00:39:51.280 I don't believe that because being successful at anything is actually rather unlikely, although

00:39:58.040 being successful at something, you have a decent shot at, but any particular thing is

00:40:02.220 quite unlikely, and then if you put obstacles in your path, well, and you're facing competition

00:40:09.280 because you're definitely always facing competition.

00:40:12.600 Yeah, there's people that want to define themselves.

00:40:14.660 There's people that want to make that effort, that want to, you know, like, open their eyes

00:40:20.480 in the fog and really try and see themselves, you know?

00:40:24.600 Yeah, that's going to be competition.

00:40:26.980 Yes, and in all likelihood, they're going to get there before you unless you think that

00:40:32.100 you can stumble, fortunately, into what you desire, and I don't think virtually no one

00:40:37.180 believes that if pushed.

00:40:38.880 You know, they might assume that in some ways and act like that in some ways, but if you

00:40:44.180 push someone and say, look, you know, if you tried harder, would you do better?

00:40:49.140 They think, well, yeah, probably.

00:40:53.440 Yeah.

00:40:53.540 And so it's hard to deceive yourself about such things.

00:40:57.380 Is it more of a Western kind of philosophy that we can, like the fog is almost, is it

00:41:05.760 more of a luxury almost of Western civilization to even be able to have a fog?

00:41:13.240 Look, I feel like in some cultures and societies, a fog would be a luxury maybe because you have

00:41:19.540 to face real elements of survival more often.

00:41:24.660 Well, we could say maybe that it's a danger of plenty.

00:41:29.280 That's a better way.

00:41:29.960 Right?

00:41:30.640 Right.

00:41:30.940 Well, I've wondered this, you know, so let's say you're a parent and you're reasonably well

00:41:37.860 off.

00:41:38.840 Well, how much do you do for your kids?

00:41:42.100 And the answer to that is surprisingly complicated because on the one hand, you want to do everything

00:41:49.200 you can.

00:41:49.880 And on the other hand, if you deprive them of necessity, then you deprive them of the

00:41:58.560 opportunity to, no, you deprive them of the motivation that that necessity often provides.

00:42:05.660 And so, you know, you said, well, in cultures where you're living more hand to mouth, you

00:42:11.080 don't have the luxury of making things unduly complicated.

00:42:15.760 And there is some advantage in stark motivation.

00:42:21.440 You know, if you're really hungry, you don't have a lot of existential angst around eating.

00:42:27.280 You just eat.

00:42:29.140 And so that definitely is a problem.

00:42:33.820 It isn't obvious to me what to do about that either.

00:42:37.600 It's one of the diseases of wealth.

00:42:43.640 What should I do?

00:42:44.600 Well, I don't have to do anything.

00:42:46.880 Well, why should I do anything or what calls to me?

00:42:49.700 That's also a problem that's going to become increasingly relevant.

00:42:56.480 Do you ever wish sometimes, like if you could do it again, that you got to be in like a more

00:43:00.740 of a primitive kind of life where you just like, where things just felt like if you saw

00:43:05.740 an animal, it kind of felt like y'all maybe knew what each other was thinking or something

00:43:09.420 like that, like sometimes I feel like I love being in America and I think it's really cool.

00:43:16.100 But sometimes I'll see like something on National Geographic or something and I'll be like, man,

00:43:21.540 that really looks it looks a lot more real, you know, like a lot more visceral.

00:43:26.440 Like, like I've been to Africa before and I remember looking in the eyes of a man one time

00:43:31.460 and it felt like he was like, no joke, doctor, it felt like he was like 3 million years old.

00:43:38.160 Like it just, like his eyes, it just felt like, man, you could just dive into his eyes

00:43:43.820 and never hit the bottom, man.

00:43:45.340 You know, I just, do you ever think like how, how neat it would be maybe to have more

00:43:49.700 of a primitive type of, I don't know if primitive is the right word.

00:43:52.820 Well, people, people obviously have a nostalgia for that, you know, I mean, that's why we camp.

00:43:59.340 That's why people have a cottage in the woods.

00:44:01.920 There is something about, about that more direct existence that is obviously attractive

00:44:07.040 to us.

00:44:07.700 Um, it doesn't mean that we're likely to produce it for ourselves, although it is strange that

00:44:15.200 we'll do that when we're vacationing.

00:44:17.760 And yeah, it is strange that we'll like kind of go back to almost like we'll kind of flirt

00:44:22.040 with having nothing kind of.

00:44:24.000 Yeah.

00:44:24.400 And it isn't, it isn't exactly obvious.

00:44:26.600 Well, and it's also interesting that we regard that as a break.

00:44:29.460 And I think part of the reason for that, look, there isn't a lot of evidence that people

00:44:34.260 in industrialized societies are happier than people who are in non-industrialized societies.

00:44:40.560 In fact, the evidence is actually quite the reverse.

00:44:44.080 I would believe that.

00:44:45.140 And I think the reason, perhaps not the reason, a reason, because there's usually many reasons

00:44:51.040 for anything, is that it requires constant, it requires a certain amount of constant deferral

00:45:00.100 of gratification to maintain an industrialized lifestyle.

00:45:03.240 You're not living in the moment, you're always putting off the moment so that, well, so that

00:45:09.040 you'll live longer.

00:45:10.020 So, I mean, one of the advantages of being in an industrialized society is that your life

00:45:13.740 expectancy is much longer.

00:45:15.480 But there is something that's more primordially satisfying about, or there seems to be, about

00:45:22.440 a lifestyle where the actions and the rewards and the punishments aren't so separated.

00:45:29.380 You know, you're going to medical school, you're slaving away, let's say, the reward for that

00:45:36.120 is deferred far into the future.

00:45:39.060 Right.

00:45:39.320 And you're giving up all sorts of momentary pleasures.

00:45:42.880 And there's a cost associated with that as well.

00:45:47.540 Now, it isn't an easy one to, well, it's the constant battle that we have between what's

00:45:55.460 good in the moment and what's good over the long run.

00:45:58.100 It's a very difficult thing to get right.

00:46:00.820 Yeah.

00:46:00.980 And our existence here is more about what's good over the long run.

00:46:03.940 Maybe it's a little more like that.

00:46:05.140 Well, that's, yes.

00:46:06.300 Well, at least the culture is built that way.

00:46:09.100 Right, right.

00:46:09.840 Yeah.

00:46:10.400 Yeah.

00:46:11.000 It's built on deferral of gratification and so on.

00:46:15.780 And so that makes it kind of insipid in some ways.

00:46:19.800 It isn't as adventurous or exciting.

00:46:22.060 Yeah.

00:46:22.580 Yeah.

00:46:23.280 Or it doesn't seem that way.

00:46:24.940 It's interesting, though.

00:46:26.100 I mean, it seems that people who are in less industrialized countries and have a less

00:46:32.300 industrialized existence will trade that quite rapidly for the opportunity to progress,

00:46:38.340 so to speak, economically.

00:46:40.360 So.

00:46:41.020 Yeah.

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00:49:27.220 Yeah, it's interesting also, too, that you would think you would find happiness in,

00:49:31.500 not goal scoring, but like I noticed in my own life in the past year, since I spoke to

00:49:39.480 you last, you know, I've probably had a decent amount of success and life kind of got a little

00:49:44.020 bit more exciting with doing some touring and, you know, was more financially rewarding.

00:49:50.980 And I always, but I found that I was really not unhappy.

00:49:56.080 I was grateful, but I was, I guess I was a little unhappy.

00:49:58.600 I think I always felt like when I got to a certain level of success that the questions

00:50:06.880 that I had inside of my heart or inside of my brain or the, the discomfort, I felt like

00:50:12.380 everything would go away.

00:50:13.460 Like, like life would hand me some, like, like magic answer book that had a couple of

00:50:18.880 decent answers in it, you know, but that.

00:50:21.120 You mean like beyond order?

00:50:22.500 Yeah.

00:50:22.800 Yes.

00:50:23.440 Yes.

00:50:23.880 Like beyond order.

00:50:24.880 Like there would be, okay, you did it.

00:50:27.480 You know, like somebody comes out from behind the door and they're like, all right, bucko,

00:50:31.340 you know, like finally Oz comes out, you know, and, um, right.

00:50:34.860 But it, and says good job, but that never happens.

00:50:38.980 No, no.

00:50:40.180 Well, you know, that's, that's another indication of, of the perverseness of human beings to some

00:50:45.940 degree.

00:50:46.260 So look, there are, there are two kinds of reward.

00:50:50.120 Technically speaking, there's satisfaction and there's incentive reward and satisfaction

00:50:56.160 is the reward that you were sort of dreaming about.

00:50:58.900 It's, it's the, so you're hungry and you have Thanksgiving dinner and you're no longer

00:51:03.220 hungry.

00:51:03.580 That's a reward.

00:51:04.700 That's satiation.

00:51:06.040 It's satisfying.

00:51:07.060 It, it stops you from being hungry.

00:51:09.880 Well, you think, well, I'm hungry.

00:51:11.480 I don't want to be hungry anymore, but hunger did give you something to do.

00:51:14.800 And there was the anticipation of the meal, you know, and sometimes on Thanksgiving day,

00:51:20.120 people will not eat all day just to heighten the anticipation, right?

00:51:23.740 Because that, that increases the incentive reward and incentive reward is what you experience

00:51:29.660 when you're moving towards a desired goal rather than when you attain it.

00:51:33.700 And we do have this vision.

00:51:35.940 It's a vision of utopia and probably is what motivates utopian thinking, motivates ideas

00:51:41.080 of the promised land, which is milk and honey.

00:51:44.100 That if we just turn the corner and get to here, everything will be all right.

00:51:49.260 Yeah.

00:51:49.480 And that, that isn't the case.

00:51:52.680 Um, we're, we're wired up so that the pursuit is often more engaging than the, than the acquisition.

00:52:01.140 Yeah.

00:52:01.740 I wish I had realized that though, as I was trying to acquire, I didn't, there were, it's

00:52:06.360 like, it's such a tough thing.

00:52:07.980 I, I missed some of the moments of the pursuit because I was so focused on, I think on this

00:52:12.640 end goal that would make any of the uncomfort or all, it would make all the pain of the,

00:52:18.780 the sacrifice.

00:52:20.040 It would make it all worth it kind of.

00:52:22.620 Right, right, right.

00:52:23.800 Well, that, that, there is some utility in that sort of dream too, because it, having

00:52:29.040 that image of the future also motivates you to pursue it.

00:52:32.260 But the problem with that kind of thinking, I suppose too, is that this is, Dostoevsky

00:52:38.300 raised this in notes from underground.

00:52:41.040 It's a great short book.

00:52:43.300 And he, if it's short, I'll give it a chance, man.

00:52:45.640 It's a great book.

00:52:46.680 It's a great book.

00:52:47.300 It's really, it's a real punch, that book.

00:52:49.860 And it contains a very powerful, powerful critique of the idea of utopia and Dostoevsky's.

00:52:55.920 And he was talking about the sort of precursors to the Russian communists and their notion.

00:53:00.460 If you just gave everybody enough material resources, that all of a sudden the problems

00:53:05.160 of the world would disappear.

00:53:07.420 Dostoevsky, first of all, points out that that's nonsense because, for reasons that are

00:53:13.160 similar to the ones that you laid out, but also that even if it was true,

00:53:17.760 people are so perverse, in a sense, we're such peculiar creatures that we would smash

00:53:23.280 our happiness all to pieces out of sheer boredom, just so something new and exciting could happen

00:53:29.000 so that we would have something to do again.

00:53:31.000 And I read that and I thought, wow, that's exactly right.

00:53:33.960 It's that it's this searching that's part of our essential nature is not only insatiable,

00:53:40.620 but it's actually desirable because, well, what do you do?

00:53:46.420 You shake hands with awes and then you die?

00:53:48.940 It's like, done, I'm over.

00:53:51.240 Well, you don't because you want to get on to the next great adventure.

00:53:55.120 And so it is, you know, the Sermon on the Mount seems to address this to me,

00:54:01.360 this fundamental problem, and my reading of it anyways, is something like,

00:54:06.040 align yourself with the highest good that you're capable of imagining.

00:54:12.500 And so for all intents and purposes, that's God, the sum total of all that's good,

00:54:17.360 and you live in relationship to that.

00:54:19.180 And then concentrate on the moment.

00:54:23.640 And see, it seems to me that way you get to have your cake and eat it too, right?

00:54:27.900 Because you're aiming at something that's like the promised land, this proverbial utopia.

00:54:33.200 It, by definition, is the best possible thing.

00:54:36.680 And maybe your view of that's going to change as you mature, but it doesn't matter.

00:54:40.260 That's still going to orient you.

00:54:41.420 And having that in mind, so now you're pointing in the right direction,

00:54:45.680 you can attend very carefully to the details of the pursuit.

00:54:50.020 And that's, I think that's...

00:54:52.900 That's the best we can do?

00:54:54.620 Well, I certainly haven't...

00:54:57.140 Well, it did come from the Sermon on the Mount, so hypothetically it's a reliable source, you know.

00:55:02.060 But I think it makes a tremendous amount of sense psychologically.

00:55:05.340 Yeah.

00:55:05.720 I mean, why would you not aim at the best that you could conceptualize

00:55:09.520 if you were going to aim?

00:55:10.860 Right.

00:55:12.100 And having done that, well, then it is reasonable to concentrate on the present.

00:55:17.220 And then you can immerse yourself in the present and enjoy it.

00:55:23.960 And then you don't perhaps have those regrets that you described of missing the voyage

00:55:28.820 because you were so focused on, say, the material luxury.

00:55:35.220 Yeah.

00:55:35.740 And material luxury is a strange thing too, you know.

00:55:38.200 I mean, it isn't obvious often whether you own something or it owns you.

00:55:43.920 And I don't mean that in a flippant sense.

00:55:45.960 Oh, I wouldn't at all.

00:55:46.780 Recently, I was investing in, you know, people doing cryptocurrency now.

00:55:50.420 It's like invisible.

00:55:51.560 I don't even know what it is, you know, but it's...

00:55:53.720 People are excited by it.

00:55:55.180 And I started to notice those markets on this crypto thing.

00:55:59.740 And I didn't mean to interrupt you, Dr. Ud.

00:56:01.480 No, please go ahead.

00:56:03.380 Thanks.

00:56:04.460 So, but I noticed, like, I'd wake up in the middle of the night and I would check this

00:56:08.700 thing.

00:56:09.240 And finally, I realized, like, whatever monies I'm going to possibly make in this portal,

00:56:16.020 this gambling portal of cryptocurrency, which no judgment on it.

00:56:20.520 I don't know enough about it to really judge it.

00:56:22.060 But I'm spending, like, important time checking it.

00:56:26.820 I was just...

00:56:27.380 I realized I became a slave to it.

00:56:29.140 Like, and so I just sold it all.

00:56:31.080 I don't want...

00:56:32.760 I just...

00:56:33.440 It did...

00:56:34.000 In my heart and in my chest, it didn't feel good having that distraction to check all the

00:56:38.660 time about what was going on with this money.

00:56:42.000 It just felt like it owned me.

00:56:44.640 And I immediately decided, you know what?

00:56:46.960 I just don't want to be owned by this.

00:56:48.680 Maybe something else, but just not this, you know?

00:56:51.500 Right.

00:56:52.040 And was it specifically the worry about it that was bothering you?

00:56:55.220 Or what do you think triggered or alerted you to the fact that that pursuit wasn't for

00:57:00.980 you?

00:57:02.080 That's a great question.

00:57:03.440 I think it was...

00:57:04.980 I couldn't control myself.

00:57:09.720 This is the truth.

00:57:10.620 I couldn't control myself from checking it.

00:57:14.000 And so the only alternative I had was to eliminate it because I was really having trouble.

00:57:19.960 And it doesn't fully answer your question, but I was just having trouble stop checking

00:57:23.880 it.

00:57:24.140 So I just said, I have to get rid of it.

00:57:26.300 Well, it answers it to some degree.

00:57:28.120 You found to your surprise...

00:57:30.600 See, this is partly what we were talking earlier about not hiding things in the fog.

00:57:36.140 This is part of the process of coming to a clearer vision of yourself is noticing exactly

00:57:41.440 that because your theory was, well, I can buy this cryptocurrency and maybe I'll make some

00:57:46.800 money.

00:57:47.120 But regardless, one way or another, this is going to make my life better.

00:57:51.660 Right.

00:57:51.960 You had a theory of yourself and you had a theory of the money.

00:57:54.900 Ah, yeah.

00:57:55.320 Well, it turns out that that was wrong.

00:57:57.060 Now, why exactly?

00:57:58.960 We don't know.

00:58:00.160 But the consequence of that was that you became a slave to a set of impulses that you

00:58:05.880 didn't find enjoyable in the least.

00:58:08.040 Yeah.

00:58:08.220 And that is...

00:58:09.160 And so then you stopped doing it.

00:58:11.000 And fair enough.

00:58:12.560 That seems to be the right solution.

00:58:15.140 Yeah.

00:58:15.280 And that's kind of a simple scale, I think.

00:58:17.240 And that scale evolves as I get a little bit older of, does this make me feel good?

00:58:22.960 Like, does it really make me feel good?

00:58:24.780 Like, even sometimes making some money doesn't really make me feel good, you know?

00:58:30.320 You know, like, does it make me feel good as like a human, as like a something that has

00:58:35.540 to be alive?

00:58:36.560 Do I...

00:58:37.400 Does it feel like it, like, brightens that part of me that makes me feel proud, you know?

00:58:42.780 I guess.

00:58:43.320 I don't know.

00:58:43.940 I'm trying to explain it.

00:58:45.500 No, that's a...

00:58:46.220 It's a great thing to explain as far as I'm concerned because, look, you said, does it

00:58:51.860 make you feel good?

00:58:52.680 And then you started to investigate what good meant.

00:58:55.580 And while both of those things are really worth doing, they're not foolish in the least.

00:59:00.240 Because what's good, you know, when you brought in the idea of being alive, which, you know,

00:59:04.520 you might think, well, why did you bring in the idea of being alive?

00:59:07.300 Obviously, you're alive.

00:59:08.400 But you're...

00:59:09.580 There's a theory there that's emerging, too, which is, well, I'm a living creature.

00:59:13.760 And I'm...

00:59:14.540 Well, this African that you saw who was so old, you're that old.

00:59:19.560 You're really old.

00:59:20.940 You know, life has been around for three and a half billion years.

00:59:23.660 We're really old.

00:59:24.520 And God only knows what we're up to or who we are.

00:59:26.860 And so you say, well, we're going to pursue what's good.

00:59:31.200 And what is that?

00:59:32.660 Well, it has something to do with the fact that we're alive.

00:59:35.860 We have to serve our own biological reality.

00:59:39.340 We have to address the good in a manner that's right for us as living creatures.

00:59:48.560 And so you say, well, we have to pursue the good, but we also have to figure out what

00:59:51.740 it means, what the good means.

00:59:54.500 Yeah.

00:59:54.920 You know, and that's partly what I'm trying to do in, well, in Beyond Order, my other books.

00:59:59.680 I look a lot at traditional ideas of the good.

01:00:03.300 Most of those are grounded in religious conceptions.

01:00:06.260 You know, what does it mean to pursue the good?

01:00:09.320 What does it mean to be a good person?

01:00:11.360 Well, these are very complicated problems.

01:00:13.380 And, and, but there, you, you don't, you don't get a free pass on them.

01:00:19.240 You, you, if you're, if you're murky about them, then while you're, you're ill-defined

01:00:25.660 and vague and inarticulate in your own life.

01:00:28.540 And that's not, there's comfort in that.

01:00:32.400 It's comfortable.

01:00:32.940 Yeah.

01:00:33.080 Oh, it's very comfortable.

01:00:34.340 It's like a nice, very, it's like a nice shawl or something, you know, it's almost, it's

01:00:38.880 merino wool.

01:00:39.980 I mean, it's nice, you know, it's really nice to be comfortable.

01:00:43.380 And not have to ask myself, am I happy?

01:00:47.240 Am I being of service?

01:00:49.560 Do I feel like I'm contributing anything to the world?

01:00:53.640 Do I feel like I'm being honest?

01:00:56.400 Do I love myself?

01:00:59.080 You know, um, do I love others?

01:01:01.840 Am I being a good brother?

01:01:03.920 Um, am I being a good son?

01:01:06.780 Um, if some of the answers aren't what I want them to be, am I trying in some way?

01:01:13.380 To maybe get to answers that I'm more happy with?

01:01:17.700 Um, you know, am I proud of myself?

01:01:21.060 Am I ashamed of myself?

01:01:23.480 Um, where does my shame come from?

01:01:26.580 You know?

01:01:27.120 Yeah.

01:01:27.240 Well, that's a good question.

01:01:29.120 That's a really tricky question.

01:01:30.600 Well, that's when I feel a lot.

01:01:33.380 When you say...

01:01:34.180 I just feel a lot.

01:01:35.240 I feel, you know, shame really, it's such a powerful thing.

01:01:38.780 Sometimes I'm carrying shame.

01:01:39.780 I don't even know if it's my own.

01:01:42.720 Yes.

01:01:43.200 Well, that's why there's the concept of original sin.

01:01:46.660 You know, the shame is such a universal human emotion.

01:01:50.320 It saturates our existence.

01:01:52.560 It's partly because we're so social, you know.

01:01:55.340 And so, the sense that we have a responsibility to ourselves and to others

01:01:59.980 is really built into us at a very, very profound level, multiple, in multiple ways.

01:02:06.300 And we've, we, we exist in relationship to that shame all the time.

01:02:11.060 And it's easy to say, well, you should dispense with it, you know, and, but it's not so easy

01:02:17.560 to do.

01:02:17.980 And it's not even clear how you should go about dispensing with it.

01:02:22.700 You know, I've seen people in my clinical practice who had what seemed to be, seemed

01:02:27.640 to be counterproductive levels of shame, right?

01:02:31.000 They would do things that someone else might do and then punish themselves.

01:02:36.300 Far more than seemed appropriate.

01:02:38.520 And I, I started to think about what does it mean to punish yourself appropriately?

01:02:42.980 Philosophy of punishment, which I outlined to some degree in the first book on the chapter

01:02:47.440 on children, which is don't let your children do anything that makes you dislike them.

01:02:51.360 Well, you have to stop them.

01:02:52.760 Well, how do you stop people?

01:02:54.300 Well, you punish them one way or another, even if it's just withdrawal of attention.

01:02:58.520 There's a, so then, well, how should you punish?

01:03:01.020 Assuming there are standards, et cetera.

01:03:02.980 Well, one rule, at least with regards to yourself, is you shouldn't hit yourself harder than is

01:03:08.720 necessary to teach you, right?

01:03:11.360 So if you've learned your lesson, good enough.

01:03:14.880 And I think that's also often a precondition for forgiving other people.

01:03:18.840 It's like, well, you know, did they learn their lesson?

01:03:22.480 Yes.

01:03:23.020 Well, then maybe you can let it go because additional punishment, what, is it going to make them

01:03:28.060 learn the lesson even more?

01:03:30.120 Well, why will I forgive other people before I'll forgive myself, I wonder?

01:03:36.180 Well, that's a good question because it isn't obvious that you should, right?

01:03:40.400 Because, you know, we tend to think that people are selfish and they put themselves first,

01:03:46.820 but it's just as common.

01:03:48.140 The reverse is just as common where they'll be better to other people than to themselves.

01:03:53.260 Yeah, I feel that a lot.

01:03:55.100 And it isn't, yes, I think it's more common than the reverse, actually.

01:04:00.200 Although people can act selfishly from time to time, I do think that most people punish

01:04:06.220 themselves more than they punish other people.

01:04:08.780 And that's also something to be aware of and to see if you can regulate that because it's

01:04:14.960 not necessarily for the best, even if it might be associated with the willingness to

01:04:20.460 take responsibility.

01:04:21.440 Yeah, I think it just comes from having to take a lot of responsibility growing up and

01:04:25.320 so you would be hyper, you know, you would have to be very stern on yourself.

01:04:30.340 But I don't want to get away from shame because it's really important.

01:04:33.940 Well, shame is a good pointer to the good, too, hypothetically, because you could ask yourself,

01:04:40.020 well, what am I ashamed about?

01:04:45.280 What is shame?

01:04:46.560 What should I do about it?

01:04:47.740 Those are all good questions.

01:04:49.200 Maybe you can dispense with the shame that's excessive.

01:04:53.060 But if you're ashamed, well, does that mean that you did something wrong?

01:04:58.660 Well, if it does, that means that there's such a thing as doing something wrong.

01:05:03.200 That seems to imply that there's such a thing as wrong.

01:05:06.120 That seems to imply that there's such a thing as right.

01:05:08.880 And so shame, in principle, can also be a pathway to what is good.

01:05:15.620 Say, well, if I'm engaged in something that's good, at least I won't be ashamed.

01:05:22.100 And that, I mean, everybody has to answer these questions for themselves, but I think that's

01:05:27.500 something that's very much worth considering.

01:05:29.480 What would be the case if you decided to stop engaging in all those actions that made you ashamed?

01:05:36.060 I mean...

01:05:38.060 Yeah.

01:05:39.300 Yeah.

01:05:39.960 No, it's good.

01:05:40.560 And it's nice to think that shame can be a direction and anything can be a direction

01:05:44.680 that could lead us then to the reverse, which is like, yeah, if something is wrong, then

01:05:50.100 there must be something that's right.

01:05:52.100 And so...

01:05:52.920 It's the best evidence for some...

01:05:54.380 It's the best evidence that I know of for something that's right.

01:05:58.720 Right.

01:05:58.840 Like, it's...

01:06:00.440 It...

01:06:01.140 You can find people who will debate the existence of the true or the good.

01:06:07.460 They're cynical and they're nihilistic, let's say.

01:06:10.700 They're not naive.

01:06:11.920 Maybe that's their advantage.

01:06:13.200 But it's very rare to find someone who doesn't believe that there's such a thing as what's

01:06:17.160 wrong.

01:06:17.700 And so...

01:06:20.240 And untrue.

01:06:21.520 And so that's a good starting point.

01:06:24.340 It's like, if you want to discover what's right, you can first discover...

01:06:28.120 More easily discover what's wrong.

01:06:30.860 Look, I think that's partly why we like anti-heroes in movies and in fiction.

01:06:36.640 You know, what's the purpose of a dark character?

01:06:39.340 Well, he shines a light on what the reverse is.

01:06:42.420 And sometimes that's very powerful.

01:06:44.400 In the Batman series, for example, the Joker generally was a better bad character than

01:06:51.640 Batman was a good character.

01:06:54.700 Hmm.

01:06:55.420 He was more realistic and more thought-provoking.

01:06:59.340 Yeah.

01:07:00.280 Yeah, there was more...

01:07:02.700 I don't want to say more depth there, but there was more depth there.

01:07:06.020 There was more depth.

01:07:06.780 There was more like examine.

01:07:08.160 Yeah.

01:07:08.300 Well, I think it's partly because the Joker, especially Heath Ledger's version, was pretty

01:07:14.280 realistically evil in a psychological sense.

01:07:18.580 Whereas Batman, well, he's a vigilante.

01:07:24.220 And whereas being a vigilante might be, you know, one pale reflection of what the good is

01:07:29.720 because it requires courage and is involved with justice.

01:07:33.940 Because it's still a pretty pale reflection of what the good is.

01:07:38.840 So I do think...

01:07:39.480 I think that sometimes...

01:07:40.580 Go ahead.

01:07:41.180 Sorry, Doctor.

01:07:42.140 No, no.

01:07:42.640 You had a thought.

01:07:43.420 I'd like to hear it.

01:07:45.020 I sometimes think maybe that's why it's almost interesting to be the Joker in the world sometimes,

01:07:50.740 to be, to delve in that turmoil of the darkness and stuff, because it's a more complex character

01:07:58.420 in some ways.

01:07:59.140 There's almost some appeal to it.

01:08:01.380 Well, you know, there's a notion derived from the psychology, psychological theories put forth

01:08:09.340 by Carl Jung.

01:08:10.500 And he derived some of this from Nietzsche, a philosopher.

01:08:15.420 And Nietzsche famously claimed that most morality was not morality, but cowardice.

01:08:22.860 It was merely the fear of getting caught.

01:08:26.000 Wow.

01:08:26.300 Or the fear of public humiliation, something like that.

01:08:29.960 That's what keeps you in line.

01:08:30.940 So then if there's a riot and there's no police around, you're perfectly happy to throw a rock

01:08:35.500 through the window, because the probability of getting caught declines precipitously.

01:08:39.760 So, and then if your morality is all persona, so for Jung, a morality that was nothing but conformity and adherence to social norms and fear, sort of a narrow, constrained, I'll never dare to do anything wrong and therefore I'm good.

01:08:59.160 Yeah.

01:08:59.680 That wasn't, that wasn't, that wasn't good at all.

01:09:01.880 And we have a lot of that these days.

01:09:04.080 Mm-hmm.

01:09:04.480 Yes, definitely.

01:09:05.740 Definitely.

01:09:06.720 And so under those conditions, if, if you're nothing but a persona, and so you're an obedient coward, let's say,

01:09:14.900 mm-hmm, then your dark side is actually the pathway to salvation.

01:09:20.460 Because it's what breaks out, yes, precisely, it's what breaks that, that tawdry, banal morality into pieces and leads you forward.

01:09:31.200 That's crazy.

01:09:32.440 So sometimes you need the dark side to even see what's going on on the, ah, it's tricky.

01:09:38.800 Well, it's very, it's very, very frequently the case.

01:09:41.880 And I mean, it's, it's a, it's an axiom of, of Jungian psychotherapy that the pathway to development is through the shadow.

01:09:48.820 So, for example, um, you might have somebody in your clinical practice who's, um, been raised by, by extremely conservative and religious parents,

01:09:59.600 which I'm not criticizing, by the way, but, you know, they're 27 years old and still a virgin.

01:10:06.360 Now, look, there's utility in fidelity and promiscuity isn't a plus, but it might be that if you're still a virgin at the age of 27,

01:10:17.100 that it's necessary for you to investigate your lust in order to progress past your mere childlike obedience.

01:10:29.000 Right, right.

01:10:30.200 Yeah, because you may have some hang up there that's even preventing you from engaging and getting settled down, you know?

01:10:36.260 Oh, in all likelihood, because, for example, if you're terrified of that,

01:10:40.500 then perhaps you're not very good at, um, sophisticated sexual suggestion like flirtation.

01:10:47.680 And so then you're nowhere near as attractive as you might be.

01:10:50.160 So no one is going to be, you know, interested in you as a potential mate.

01:10:54.380 Yeah.

01:10:55.180 You know, and it, you might also see someone who prides themselves, for example, on never getting angry.

01:11:01.300 Maybe they had an overbearing father who was angry all the time.

01:11:03.940 I never get angry while that person is constantly being pushed around by his or her boss at work

01:11:10.020 and maybe his wife or husband, his or her wife or husband.

01:11:14.760 And that, that I'm too good to be angry persona is stopping them from manifesting the aggression necessary

01:11:24.360 to even tell the truth about their situation.

01:11:27.300 Man, there's so, there's so many boxes and places we can put ourselves.

01:11:32.420 We have to be careful.

01:11:33.260 Everything is kind of a little bit of a trap sometimes.

01:11:36.840 Yeah, well, that, that's why we pay attention to being bored, I suppose, to some degree.

01:11:44.340 You know, that's a sign too that the box has got a little bit too tight.

01:11:48.560 Yeah.

01:11:49.060 And then you need to make arrangements with the part of you that can break things

01:11:53.960 because things need to be broken just like they need to be fixed.

01:11:58.100 And something that's old and, and, and, and ready to fall down sometimes needs to be leveled

01:12:04.080 before something new can come along.

01:12:06.040 Look, there's nothing more obvious in the world today than the fact that you might need help.

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01:15:55.320 And now, back to Mr. Peterson.

01:15:57.700 So lucky to have him.

01:15:59.920 You know, one of the things I learned from reading Nietzsche was, again, in relationship to morality,

01:16:06.220 is that a man, for example, someone who is incapable of violence is not moral because they keep it under control.

01:16:15.320 Right.

01:16:16.400 Right?

01:16:16.740 Because they're not doing anything.

01:16:18.960 That's right.

01:16:19.540 They don't have the capacity.

01:16:20.920 It's like, well, I wouldn't engage in a fist fight.

01:16:23.140 Well, yeah.

01:16:23.640 Because you're a winner.

01:16:24.960 Right.

01:16:25.480 Precisely.

01:16:26.100 And I can parade that as my moral virtue.

01:16:28.580 I'm non-violent.

01:16:30.160 I'm non-aggressive.

01:16:31.100 And this is completely independent of the morality of violence or aggression.

01:16:35.400 You know?

01:16:35.860 I mean, obviously, we think it's moral in cases of self-defense.

01:16:39.460 And so it has its necessary place.

01:16:43.140 But you have to ask yourself all the time is, like, are you law-abiding or are you just conventional and cowardly?

01:16:50.140 Yeah.

01:16:51.440 Dang, man.

01:16:52.700 More questions you got to ask ourselves.

01:16:54.620 We got to ask ourselves questions.

01:16:57.200 I think that's just such a big thing.

01:16:59.060 We have to, like, people, we have to learn to get into places and ask ourselves questions and really come up with some answers.

01:17:05.680 And one thing I noticed is the habit of it gets, it helps you fine-tune the practice of it.

01:17:12.000 Just even the practice of it helps you fine-tune the ability to do it.

01:17:16.080 Because at first it feels very impossible when you first start asking yourself questions to really think you're going to get somewhere and get answers.

01:17:23.240 Yeah.

01:17:23.800 Well, to begin with, you don't necessarily get, you don't get going very quickly.

01:17:28.320 Right.

01:17:28.900 Right.

01:17:29.380 And that's, again, you have to have some patience with yourself when you first take those stumbling steps.

01:17:34.500 You said that since we've talked last that, you know, your life has progressed positively.

01:17:41.740 Is that the case?

01:17:42.680 Yeah.

01:17:43.220 Yeah.

01:17:43.620 Yes, it has.

01:17:44.100 And so to what do you attribute that?

01:17:47.000 What have you been doing right or what have you been doing wrong less?

01:17:50.340 Well, one thing that's helped me, I think, is just I've had more exposure to people that are more capable in a lot of different fields than myself.

01:18:02.420 So I think that's made part of me want to rise to the occasion a little bit more.

01:18:07.920 Not to be equals to them or anything, but just to, it's made me a little more worldly, I think, in some ways.

01:18:14.560 In other ways, my brother made me promise I would go to therapy even if I didn't want to.

01:18:21.580 So that's made me have to, like, commit to going and speaking to a therapist every week.

01:18:27.280 So that makes me have to just talk about stuff a little more.

01:18:32.640 And I think slowly in some of those moments I've had to, like, you know, I've had moments where if I'm really feeling something, I'll kind of ask myself, well, what am I feeling right now?

01:18:42.940 Like, am I feeling sad?

01:18:44.820 Am I feeling disappointed?

01:18:46.340 Am I feeling dejected?

01:18:48.520 Am I feeling tired?

01:18:50.480 You know, I just start to really kind of, like, it's almost like using a metal detector over my feelings when I ask questions.

01:18:57.020 And then sometimes one of the words will kind of spark up and be like, okay, I'm feeling dejected.

01:19:04.020 And then why?

01:19:05.280 Who's making you feel dejected?

01:19:06.780 What's making you feel dejected?

01:19:08.120 And it's almost like I'm like Sherlock Holmes, but I'm the crime scene.

01:19:14.380 Yeah, that's perfect.

01:19:16.360 That's perfect.

01:19:17.760 Well, that is exactly that process by which knowledge emerges that I was referring to before.

01:19:23.600 It's like you have an emotion, but you don't even necessarily know what it is.

01:19:28.160 Yeah, it's just a clue.

01:19:29.160 It's like bubbles that come up in a river or bubbles that come up in a lake.

01:19:32.920 Right.

01:19:33.320 And sometimes there's a monster down there, dude, and that gets scary when you start to really get some of the answers.

01:19:38.760 You're like, oh, my God.

01:19:40.120 And some of them will make me just sometimes break down crying because it'll be such a real unearthing of something that I didn't know was going on inside of me.

01:19:49.820 Yes.

01:19:50.320 Well, that's another reason why people don't look is that there's a monster in the depths.

01:19:55.020 And that metaphor of the bubbles, that's a perfect symbolic representation.

01:20:01.500 The depth, because look, you can't see what's in the depth.

01:20:05.620 So the depth is what's unknown.

01:20:08.620 And something lurks in the unknown.

01:20:10.680 And when emotions arise, as you mentioned, it's a manifestation of something that's underneath.

01:20:15.680 You can see this in, you see this very clearly in intimate relationships, you know, where one person will get annoyed at the other for some minor transgression.

01:20:25.980 And soon they'll be fighting about something that happened or didn't happen 10 years ago.

01:20:29.720 And then they'll get to the point where they're investigating the structure of the entire relationship.

01:20:34.000 And then that'll stop people from ever having a dispute at all because they're so terrified that any pathway into a dispute will lead down into, you know, is this relationship worthwhile?

01:20:45.860 That's actually part of the reason, I think, that it's useful to have divorce difficult, if not forbidden.

01:20:54.140 Because otherwise, that question, it's like, do you really want to be tortured by that question for the rest of your life?

01:21:00.220 And at some point, it's nice to just say, well, I'm not going to go there.

01:21:04.460 That's off the table.

01:21:05.900 Yeah.

01:21:07.220 I wanted, we talked a little bit about shame.

01:21:11.320 And I wanted to kind of take it into a different direction.

01:21:14.240 And, you know, I feel a lot, I've kind of felt some shame.

01:21:20.520 Like, I don't feel ashamed of my country.

01:21:22.420 Like, I live in the United States.

01:21:24.200 And I don't feel ashamed of my country, but I feel like more recently, there's been, like, I'm supposed to feel ashamed of my country.

01:21:34.560 Like, I know, like, the Olympics is going to be coming up sometime.

01:21:38.000 I don't know when, but I know it keeps coming up.

01:21:40.580 And it's like, if I cheer for America, it almost feels these days in America like you're wrong.

01:21:47.560 And it seems like there's a ton of animosity and resentment from Americans, but who are enjoying, like, the comfort and the privileges and the opportunities of America towards America and towards, like, its history and stuff.

01:22:06.620 But, like, if we didn't have the battles and we didn't have, like, the social revolutions that have happened in America over time, you know, then half of the world would still be enslaved and, you know, there'd be a lot less opportunity for all types of people and all types of genders and everything.

01:22:25.400 Um, so it just feels like such a weird time.

01:22:29.380 There's, like, a lot of shame being cast on people in America for, for, I think, supporting, like, a traditional idea of America, maybe?

01:22:41.480 Yeah, I think, I think you're dead on with all those observations and, and especially with regards to the sort of questioning attitude you have towards it.

01:22:50.280 It's like, well, look, let's see if we can sort that through a little bit.

01:22:53.000 All right. Well, there's some real complex existential problems there, because you, you pointed out, well, with any complicated nation, there's the bloody history and the accomplishments.

01:23:08.120 And the question is, well, what do you make of the relationship between the bloody history and the accomplishments?

01:23:14.180 And it's complicated, so you're, you're cursed and blessed by your history.

01:23:18.660 Right.

01:23:19.120 And what's the right attitude?

01:23:20.540 Well, okay, let's look at patriotism for a minute.

01:23:25.920 Now, in principle, pride is a sin.

01:23:30.100 And I think the reason for that's more like arrogance.

01:23:33.420 And arrogance is a sin, because an arrogant person is convinced that they're absolutely right.

01:23:41.000 And that can make you a tyrant to other people, but also to yourself.

01:23:44.620 It makes it very difficult for you to learn, for example.

01:23:48.240 And so you might say, well, I'm a patriot.

01:23:50.200 And you, and then if you're, if you criticize that, you could say, well, that's a sin of pride.

01:23:54.720 And look at the bloody history of your nation.

01:23:57.960 And how dare you be proud of that?

01:23:59.880 And it's not easy to figure out how to argue your way out of that.

01:24:05.540 But by the same token, to have no affinity for your community and your country seems, also seems to lead you places that aren't particularly good.

01:24:17.100 So it seems to me that one attitude you could have towards your country is gratitude.

01:24:26.280 That's not pride exactly, right?

01:24:28.560 That's, so you could be a patriot of gratitude.

01:24:31.940 And you could say, well, look, man, I go outside and, hey, look, there's a highway.

01:24:36.960 And there's a bridge.

01:24:38.300 And there's a school and a university.

01:24:40.540 And I didn't make these things.

01:24:42.400 And I can walk down the street without fear of, like, mass thugs most of the time.

01:24:49.420 And I can pursue what I want, at least compared to people throughout history.

01:24:56.760 Right.

01:24:57.120 A lot of opportunity.

01:24:59.420 Yeah.

01:24:59.620 And a lot of security.

01:25:01.500 A lot of security.

01:25:02.720 I mean, the probability that a person who isn't involved in criminal activity is going to be the

01:25:09.520 victim of a violent crime is extremely low.

01:25:14.120 So, and far more than at any other point in history.

01:25:17.680 And so, I think you can be...

01:25:19.360 And even safety from animals.

01:25:20.380 Like, animals used to attack people all the time.

01:25:22.380 But they don't even...

01:25:23.580 That hardly even happens anymore here.

01:25:26.520 Yes.

01:25:26.880 Well, way back when, this is millions of years ago, there was a cat in Africa that had two large teeth in the front

01:25:36.440 and one large tooth on the bottom that exactly fit over a hominid skull.

01:25:42.120 Oh, dang, bro.

01:25:43.780 Yeah, right.

01:25:44.640 Absolutely.

01:25:45.260 And it turns out that we're not eaten by many of those anymore.

01:25:48.560 And the problem...

01:25:50.240 Right.

01:25:51.340 And, you know, we've kind of dealt with the predator problem to the point where we actually feel sorry for the predators.

01:25:58.580 You know, maybe we want a few more wolves and a couple of lions and tigers,

01:26:02.240 which is easy to say if they're not eating your children at the time.

01:26:06.240 Right.

01:26:06.960 So, it seems to me that, you know...

01:26:10.100 Security.

01:26:10.800 We're definitely secure.

01:26:12.620 We are definitely...

01:26:13.500 Well, comparatively speaking...

01:26:15.560 For sure.

01:26:16.640 You compare us to the rest of humanity in the past and the rest of humanity at present.

01:26:20.800 And it's like, you can be grateful for all those things and still...

01:26:25.080 So, look, when you're a kid, you kind of have a naive patriotism, the same way that you have naive trust.

01:26:32.900 When you're a kid, as long as no one's abused you, you kind of trust everybody.

01:26:38.180 But that's not really trust, you know?

01:26:41.020 It's not trust in the sophisticated sense.

01:26:43.300 Trust in the sophisticated sense is more like, look, I know that you're as full of snakes as me.

01:26:51.140 And that if I enter into a relationship with you, there's a possibility of deceit and betrayal.

01:26:56.120 But I'm going to put an honest foot forward anyways and take you at your word.

01:27:01.220 Partly because that's an encouragement for you to manifest your best.

01:27:05.700 And hopefully you'll do that with me.

01:27:07.460 And so that's an act of courage that makes the world better.

01:27:10.520 And you still might get stabbed in the back for doing it.

01:27:13.640 But you're not a fool under those conditions.

01:27:16.420 You've taken a calculated risk.

01:27:18.500 And I would say the same thing about patriotism.

01:27:21.280 It's like when you're a kid, you know, you stand up when the American flag shows and you sing.

01:27:28.760 And you're an unquestioning participant in that.

01:27:32.800 And then maybe when you're an adolescent, you start to learn about the sorrier elements of history.

01:27:37.900 And that takes a hit.

01:27:39.440 But then maybe you get beyond that.

01:27:41.920 And you think, yes, well, human history is a complete bloody nightmare.

01:27:45.080 It's a bloody tragedy.

01:27:46.600 It's a catastrophe.

01:27:49.000 But I'm still, look at all the things that have been produced as a consequence.

01:27:55.300 And you're grateful for that.

01:27:57.080 And that's a more mature form of courage, I would say, rather than the unthinking patriotism or unthinking anti-patriotism, for that matter.

01:28:10.200 It's discerning gratitude.

01:28:12.720 Right.

01:28:12.820 And I think you can be discerningly grateful for what the U.S. has to offer.

01:28:18.080 And if you're not moving away, that's sort of evidence that you feel the same way.

01:28:24.020 Yeah.

01:28:24.220 Well, sometimes I think a lot of people would like to move away, but there's just nowhere left to move, you know?

01:28:31.060 I think a lot of people sometimes would love to start a new country or something, but they just, there's nowhere left to go, kind of, you know?

01:28:37.640 Well, it's good in principle.

01:28:39.300 You know, I saw, I went to an Airbnb out on Vancouver, in the Vancouver Island vicinity a few years ago.

01:28:46.760 Oh, there you go.

01:28:47.280 On one of these islands.

01:28:48.400 You tried it.

01:28:49.880 That were populated by mostly by hippies.

01:28:51.980 Yeah.

01:28:52.740 And we came across this couple who rented this little cabin that my wife and I stayed in, and they had decided to sort of go back to the land.

01:29:01.420 Well, they bought something that owned them because they were on this island.

01:29:08.620 It was pretty isolated, and it could be self-sufficient, but do you know how much work it takes to make you self-sufficient?

01:29:17.120 Wow.

01:29:17.720 Like, just keeping yourself in chickens is no simple task.

01:29:21.600 It's a daily grind, and that's just chickens, you know?

01:29:27.520 And maybe you're trading eggs and so on.

01:29:29.940 Yeah, that's right.

01:29:30.660 And so they were really in trouble, this couple, because they wanted to go start a new country, but they had no idea just how difficult it is to, well, to have a chicken, let's say, which is something we take for granted because it's so unbelievably simple.

01:29:46.320 Yeah.

01:29:46.520 All these problems are solved for us.

01:29:48.380 We don't even notice how difficult it was to solve them.

01:29:52.020 Have you seen, there's that television show Alone that was actually filmed out on Vancouver Island.

01:29:56.600 Did you ever see any episodes of that show?

01:29:59.360 No, no.

01:30:00.740 What's its theme?

01:30:02.040 They take, I think, maybe 10 people, and they put them onto, like, an uninhabited place, and they have to survive for themselves by hunting and fishing and trapping.

01:30:13.360 And so it's kind of reality television, but the contestants have to film all the footage themselves, so there's no crew there.

01:30:19.860 So, I mean, you have people really, like, killing aardvarks and ox, I mean, hunting down bears.

01:30:27.140 It's pretty intense.

01:30:29.160 It's about as, like, real as I've ever seen a show get.

01:30:33.720 But the first two seasons were on Vancouver Island, and it looked miserable.

01:30:40.120 Yeah, well, it turns out that doing things like hunting and fishing are actually incredibly difficult technical skills because animals don't like to be eaten, and they're actually pretty smart.

01:30:51.660 But, so, you have to know a tremendous amount before you can manage that with any degree of success.

01:30:58.800 Yeah.

01:30:59.120 So, patriotism, so, if we're at a time—

01:31:05.260 Well, what do you think about that?

01:31:06.580 I mean, I think your comments about—I think the idea of patriotism is under assault because, you know, it's an oppressive culture and all of that.

01:31:16.100 And there is an element of that that, of course, is true, but—

01:31:21.100 I think, well, I like to hear what you said, to have a gratitude, you know, to have a thankful gratitude of where we are and of the place that I'm in.

01:31:31.240 To think of history in a little bit of a longer term instead of just in maybe some of the simpler terms that maybe I saw in commercials growing up and stuff like that, and just in some of the simpler terms of, like, saying the Pledge of Allegiance and stuff.

01:31:48.840 But I really like having the feeling that everybody is on the same page, even though maybe that's just a creature comfort that I've had growing up, and maybe that's changing some in America.

01:32:04.360 It just used to feel like everyone was on the same page.

01:32:07.980 Yes, well, that brings us back to the technological revolution to some degree.

01:32:13.140 You know, there does seem to be a certain amount of fragmentation of the narrative, let's say.

01:32:21.560 And that is unsettling, because it is—when everyone's on the same page, they're not at each other's throats.

01:32:31.220 You know, and you might—you can put that down, and you can say, well, that's just conformity.

01:32:35.000 It's like, well, first of all, let's not get too casually critical about the idea of conformity.

01:32:41.880 I cover that in Chapter 1, do not casually denigrate social institutions or creative achievement.

01:32:48.240 It's like, it's really hard to get everybody on the same page, and it's really hard to get everybody to conform, especially when they're doing it voluntarily.

01:32:57.480 And there is not much difference between that and peace.

01:33:00.940 And if you don't think that that's a good thing, then you should think really hard about failed states, where no one's on the same page, and you get an instant proliferation of warring gangs of armed thugs.

01:33:14.560 And if you think the utopians are going to win the armed thug battle, you've got another thing coming, because they'll be the first ones on the chopping block.

01:33:25.000 And so, you know, you're a comedian and an open person and not likely to have a great taste in some ways for pure conformity.

01:33:35.600 And I'm someone who enjoys artistic creation and revolutionary ideas, but by the same token, I'm not someone who despises conformity, you know?

01:33:50.940 Well, you said in the book, I mean, you said that we're always going to have, as humans, we're always going to be searching for revolutionary ideas.

01:33:56.780 It's something that is constantly the way that we've always been, and it's the way of, like, just a liberal way of thinking is to keep moving forward and progress and try things that are new and want to do that.

01:34:10.660 But I just feel like you have to have a foundation of comfort to be able to do that from, because some of that is a luxury of being comfortable, or at least being stable enough.

01:34:24.780 Enough. And to feel at all, and when things get really uncomfortable, that feels a lot scarier place to be creative from, almost.

01:34:34.400 Well, the first thing we should point out is that being a conformist isn't the highest of moral virtues, but being unable to conform is worse.

01:34:45.560 Now, refusing to conform, that's in a different category. You might have valid reasons for, especially if you're exceptional.

01:34:51.620 And, you know, you could say, well, virtually everyone is exceptional in some regard, and should perhaps not be conformist there.

01:35:00.280 And we could say, fine, but the rest of the 95% of them should go along with the crowd, because that's going along with peace.

01:35:09.640 And we also don't ever want to confuse the inability to conform with the ability to produce revolutionary ideas.

01:35:20.220 Because just because you can't conform or are rejected doesn't mean you're a genius.

01:35:25.040 What it most likely means is that you're just incapable, and then you're going to be highly motivated to confuse your incapability with creativity.

01:35:35.820 And that's not helpful. And then you pointed out something that's also very important.

01:35:40.300 And just how many dimensions do you want to be exceptional on anyways?

01:35:45.680 You know, you're a comedian, and you have to take substantial risk to do that.

01:35:50.060 And it's quite threatening.

01:35:51.400 It wouldn't be such a bad idea if the rest of your life was, well, maybe secure enough to allow you to tolerate that.

01:35:57.820 I guess I worry on a bigger picture as a nation, that if we start to, like, if the fabric of some of the textile of the past,

01:36:12.480 if some of the tapestry, kind of, I guess, or tapestry of the past starts to come apart.

01:36:18.700 Like, I'm all for making new tapestry, but I just feel like, I just get scared.

01:36:23.220 I don't know if I feel, but it's more a fear.

01:36:25.720 I get scared that if we do that, that things could just tear, and I just don't know what's going to happen.

01:36:33.740 I guess I'm just, I'm scared a little bit.

01:36:35.880 I don't know what the future of this country that I live in looks like, and I used to feel like I had a little bit better idea.

01:36:44.460 But I don't know if the idea of what I thought it looked like was just a comfort based upon, like, my skin tone.

01:36:55.720 And growing up with at least food in my house, you know, some stuff like that.

01:36:59.880 I just don't know if, I don't know if maybe my idea was just a luxury or something.

01:37:05.420 I don't know.

01:37:07.040 Do you know what I'm kind of saying a little bit?

01:37:08.620 I'm just kind of scared.

01:37:09.220 Well, I think that's a question, that's a question that everybody's being driven to answer, partly because there's intense moral pressure to ask yourself that question, you know.

01:37:18.900 To what degree was your privilege unearned?

01:37:21.920 Well, there's an easy answer to that, actually.

01:37:25.320 Lots of it.

01:37:26.720 Yeah.

01:37:26.920 But the same holds true with virtually everyone else.

01:37:30.120 Yeah.

01:37:30.800 You know, and so, who's got privilege depends a lot on what group you're willing to use as a comparison.

01:37:41.160 Yeah.

01:37:41.400 So, even impoverished people in North America are rich by world standards.

01:37:51.660 Yeah.

01:37:52.400 They're in the top 1%, generally speaking.

01:37:55.680 And they're certainly in the top 1% by historical standards.

01:37:59.220 The problem with hammering home the idea of undeserved privilege is that there's no one who can't be crucified on that particular cross.

01:38:11.500 Right.

01:38:12.140 You know, unless you're born naked in the middle of a field with nothing.

01:38:16.580 Yeah.

01:38:17.300 Everyone is the undeserved recipient of the fruits of the past.

01:38:23.480 The fact that you have a mother is a privilege.

01:38:26.900 You didn't earn that.

01:38:28.460 And so, when you say you deserve nothing because of your privilege, what makes you so sure you're not saying that to everyone for all time?

01:38:38.460 In which case, no one ever gets anything that they can have for their own.

01:38:45.320 Right.

01:38:45.940 It's a very dangerous game.

01:38:48.160 Well, I don't see where it can end.

01:38:49.940 It's not obvious.

01:38:51.120 Because, imagine each person has multiple identities.

01:38:55.880 That's intersectionality.

01:38:58.060 We all have multiple identities.

01:39:00.700 You're privileged along some of those identities, relatively speaking, and less along others.

01:39:07.580 So, if you're young and black and female, well, you're young.

01:39:13.920 Right.

01:39:14.400 So, that's not deserved.

01:39:17.860 It's not like you earned being young.

01:39:21.100 Right.

01:39:21.640 There's always going to be some way.

01:39:24.340 There's always going to be some form of privilege in every regard.

01:39:27.560 Yeah, I certainly didn't feel privileged growing up.

01:39:29.920 I mean, I feel like a lot of what I've had in my life has certainly been earned.

01:39:35.080 I felt disadvantaged in a lot of ways, you know, emotionally and some, there's always, yeah.

01:39:40.900 I think everybody would have their own discussion, their own, like, not their own parameters.

01:39:46.140 But, yeah, I could see how everybody would have pluses and minuses.

01:39:50.060 Well, that's why I think the right level of analysis is the individual, you know.

01:39:55.280 And when you move away from that, it gets dangerous.

01:39:57.540 It gets dangerous quickly.

01:39:58.820 And it gets dangerous for everyone.

01:40:00.680 And the reason why is the reason that you just laid out.

01:40:04.960 You take any individual person, you can point to the advantages that they had.

01:40:10.280 Now, look, I understand that some people, I mean, I was a clinician for a long time.

01:40:15.180 And I saw people who had lives that were so hard that you could barely even imagine it.

01:40:21.540 You know, I had one client who was impaired intellectually.

01:40:30.460 She had, she lived with an aunt who was schizophrenic, who had an alcoholic boyfriend,

01:40:36.860 who was extremely violent and also schizophrenic, who used to bother her about being possessed by Satan.

01:40:43.040 She was so ashamed that she couldn't look anyone in the eye.

01:40:50.840 She would walk down the street with her hand like this, sort of bowed down because she felt so unworthy.

01:40:59.820 She wasn't an attractive person.

01:41:01.520 She looked like a street person, so people treated her badly, all things considered.

01:41:06.080 Now, look, she, I saw her at this hospital that I was working at where the inpatients were people who were in even worse shape than her.

01:41:16.520 They were people so hurt that they couldn't be deinstitutionalized.

01:41:20.840 And I saw her because she had decided that she wanted to take one of these institutionalized people for a walk when she was out walking her dog.

01:41:30.480 So despite all her catastrophes, which were plenty, you know, she could still see outside of herself to someone who had it even worse.

01:41:41.920 It was really something, you know?

01:41:44.000 Yeah.

01:41:44.540 Well, and so this privilege game, it's like, well, look to your own privilege.

01:41:50.200 And that isn't, I'm, I'm not saying that there aren't historical injustices, but.

01:41:57.340 Of course.

01:41:58.080 There are, there are many of them.

01:42:00.960 Right, there are for everyone in a lot of ways, yes.

01:42:03.140 But if we only look at the victim side of things anyway, even as a human, if I only see myself as a victim, I'm really going to have a tough time.

01:42:10.680 I can see myself, I can respect that I'm a victim of some things.

01:42:14.560 But if I only see myself as a victim, it's going to make the rest of my life pretty tough, I feel like.

01:42:20.280 Well, it also matters what, what, it matters what you want to do about the fact that you're a victim.

01:42:26.520 Do you want to take away from other people?

01:42:30.720 You know, it isn't that, and that.

01:42:38.480 I don't know, it kind of put us on a lot of different planes here at once.

01:42:41.880 Oh, that's okay.

01:42:42.900 Well, that was a very complicated problem.

01:42:44.700 And it's one that, you know, I think is particularly relevant to your particular country at this particular time and place.

01:42:52.260 Because the tapestry is under assault.

01:42:55.540 And the thing is, it's a lot easier to burn something up or to cut it up than it is to knit a new tapestry.

01:43:01.360 It's really hard.

01:43:03.660 And has there been times, I mean, is it, is it okay where we are right now from an outsider's perspective?

01:43:10.120 Is it scary, like based on like historical civilizations and stuff?

01:43:15.580 Like, do you think we're in a place that is like still kind of safe judging from an outside, like, or from a, you know, I mean, you're still in Western civilization.

01:43:25.860 Canada is not extremely different than the U.S.

01:43:27.820 Do you feel like we're in a scary place?

01:43:31.300 Or do you feel like it's just a lot of pomp and circumstance?

01:43:34.740 And at the root of things, we're, we're, we're still at a very realistic place.

01:43:40.340 I think there are always dangers that threaten the stability of societies.

01:43:59.320 I think that those dangers are real, but I think they're always there.

01:44:06.480 I think that I have faith in the robustness of, say, American institutions, all things considered.

01:44:15.240 It seems to me that you, your country has weathered crises of at least this magnitude, and often far worse, many times in the past, and, and that's worked out.

01:44:30.620 So, I think there's reason to be alert, but not hopeless.

01:44:35.160 I mean, on the broader scale, the broad scale, world scale, let's say, it's hard to make a case that things were ever better than they are now.

01:44:47.340 And it's almost impossible to make the case that there was ever a time in the past where things were getting better faster than they are now.

01:44:54.960 So, it's reasonable to assume that everyone on the planet will be out of abject poverty, as defined by the UN by the year 2030.

01:45:07.720 Wow.

01:45:08.460 It's halved, well, it already halved from 2000 to 2012.

01:45:13.860 And so, and that was the fastest transformation in human history by a huge margin.

01:45:19.440 Yeah, I've been seeing less poor people, I feel like, honestly.

01:45:21.880 Well, there's, there's, there's variance, because in the Western countries, the working class hasn't kept up as well as they were in the 60s, let's say, in some ways.

01:45:32.820 But, globally speaking, there's lots of reasons for optimism, but it's a difficult problem to settle, because there's always the possibility that any given problem will get completely out of hand, you know, and that's the, the case that people make with regards to climate change.

01:45:48.840 You know, well, there's a small percentage of complete catastrophe, a small percent probability of complete catastrophe.

01:45:56.340 Well, we don't know what to do with a problem like that, because it's impossible to calculate how many resources you devote to something that's absolutely catastrophic, but that has a small probability of occurring.

01:46:09.240 Right, right.

01:46:10.000 You know, like, what if the Greenland ice sheet melts?

01:46:13.260 Right.

01:46:13.620 Well, then the oceans rise, you know, multiple feet, and that's a catastrophe.

01:46:18.520 Well, how much is it worth to stave that off?

01:46:20.760 It's very, very difficult to calculate.

01:46:25.080 Yeah, and plus, we're still, a lot of people are still surviving.

01:46:27.220 A lot of, I think there's still that heavy survival instinct in a lot of people, where it's more of a short-term survival, that I don't even think it's, it's our fault for thinking that way.

01:46:36.920 It's just built into, like, our limbic system, or our brainstem, or something.

01:46:40.620 Like, it's hard.

01:46:42.440 It is.

01:46:42.900 Yeah.

01:46:43.860 I agree with you.

01:46:44.940 It's an archetypal story.

01:46:46.140 That's the apocalypse.

01:46:47.800 Yeah.

01:46:48.080 You know, the end of the world is always upon us.

01:46:52.260 You know, I saw...

01:46:53.260 Go on, sorry, Doc.

01:46:54.840 Well, it's because things can fall apart for us completely, and they do in our own life.

01:46:59.940 There's illness waiting, there's death waiting.

01:47:02.520 Like, we have a built-in sense that things can come to a cataclysmic end, and that also makes us prudent and careful and able to look at the future and forestall catastrophes.

01:47:14.160 But the problem is, is that we can also generate false positives and be unduly worried about things that are very unlikely to occur.

01:47:21.380 Yeah.

01:47:22.800 Yeah.

01:47:23.260 And sometimes it's like, some people will start to become unduly worried about things that they don't even know if they can occur.

01:47:29.400 That even becomes an addiction for some people.

01:47:31.540 Like, they're just addicted to problems, you know?

01:47:33.560 Like, I notice that a lot.

01:47:36.980 Like, people are just addicted to problems, especially on social media in the U.S.

01:47:41.660 And I had a question about social media.

01:47:44.520 Sometimes I feel like tech is, like, the new fossil fuel, kind of.

01:47:49.280 Like, bandwidth is, like, the new oil, and, like, YouTube is, like, the pipelines, and, like, you know, like, Wi-Fi is kind of, like, this natural gas.

01:48:00.600 Like, it's all kind of...

01:48:03.000 I don't know.

01:48:03.700 There's, like, these platforms that we need to be able to survive these days.

01:48:08.160 You mean they've become part of the infrastructure?

01:48:10.040 Right.

01:48:10.700 They've become huge parts of the infrastructure, especially in communication.

01:48:15.880 Yes.

01:48:16.620 And communication has become one of the main...

01:48:20.620 I mean, especially even since we talked last.

01:48:23.280 Like, last time we spoke, you were talking about how video and podcasting has become such a new form of communication, how people are using it.

01:48:31.980 And the platforms that we're on are now, like, even probably twice as popular as they were two years ago when we spoke.

01:48:40.040 So, sometimes I find for myself, like, I get afraid to kind of speak up and even ask questions, like, on my podcast and to talk about certain topics because I'm afraid of being deplatformed.

01:48:54.640 Like, the platform can be taken away.

01:48:56.700 And they never...

01:48:58.460 I just wonder, have they ever had that in history?

01:49:00.520 Like, in the past, like, you know, people...

01:49:03.960 You might not be afraid to write something because no one was going to take away the trees to make the paper, you know?

01:49:11.300 But now it feels like if you don't...

01:49:15.300 And I may be wrong, but I feel sometimes, like, if I don't say the right...

01:49:19.760 Not say the right thing, but if I don't evade certain conversations and raise my hand and ask certain questions, that if I do do those things, sorry, that they could take away the forest.

01:49:31.620 They could take away the paper, the YouTube, the Instagram.

01:49:35.440 They can take away the platform where we basically has become our English language kind of in a lot of ways.

01:49:43.440 Well, you know, I mean, in societies that weren't free, and that would be most societies, the probability that your voice could be taken away was very high because you could just be killed or imprisoned.

01:49:56.100 Wow.

01:49:56.460 And I suppose, all things considered, it's better to have your YouTube channel shut down than to be imprisoned or killed, right?

01:50:04.820 Right.

01:50:05.180 It is new, I suppose, in that we're dependent on these technology companies, increasingly dependent for our interpersonal communication.

01:50:15.380 I don't feel like the fear that you're describing is unwarranted.

01:50:19.720 I certainly feel the same way about my podcast and YouTube channel.

01:50:24.340 I've had guests on recently where I've been extremely uncomfortable talking about the topics that we've been talking about, and I think reasonably so.

01:50:36.040 You can face deplatforming, or worse, they can just shut you down completely, and it's arbitrary and very, very complicated and costly and hard on you.

01:50:46.840 And then there's the constant probability of being swarmed on social media, which is in some ways a new phenomenon, partly because of the sheer volume of it and the degree of exposure.

01:51:03.320 So there are reasons to tread carefully, that's for sure.

01:51:06.940 And it is quite terrifying, no doubt about it.

01:51:11.040 Have you run into trouble with your podcast?

01:51:14.400 No, I haven't run into trouble.

01:51:16.020 I think a lot of it for me has just been fear.

01:51:19.980 You know, I had on Robert F. Kennedy, who's a friend of mine, and he's not an anti-vaxxer, but he is a lot more about safe vaccines and making sure that vaccines have been tested properly.

01:51:31.940 And he's an environmentalist, you know, since he was a child, and so it makes sense that he, you know, he cares about the environment around us and the one that's in our veins, you know, going into our bodies.

01:51:42.540 He's just an overall environmentalist man.

01:51:45.560 But I know his Instagram was taken away for being, I don't know if he was anti-vaxxed, but certainly for, like, bringing up a lot of topics and questions about vaccinations.

01:51:56.480 So, I don't know, I guess I just see it happening sometimes, and so I just get, I just get worried.

01:52:03.820 I just get, like, you know, I just wonder, has there ever been a time and place in history, but I guess you answered it, that some people used to be killed for being, for saying what they wanted to say.

01:52:14.720 Oh, that was the norm.

01:52:15.680 Wanted to say, you know, like, free expression is, that's not common.

01:52:20.280 But do you worry that we're, like, kind of cornering any of our freedom of speech or anything, or am I just scared?

01:52:29.280 Well, I worry enough about it so that it scares me to talk about certain things, and it isn't obvious to me that that's for the best.

01:52:38.640 I don't think your fear is unwarranted.

01:52:40.400 I also think that freedom of speech is sufficiently threatening so that the probability that it will be curtailed is always high, and that we have to, what is it, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance?

01:52:58.560 I think I've got that right.

01:52:59.740 I don't remember who I said it, but, who said it.

01:53:02.140 But, and then, so you might think, well, what should you talk about, and what shouldn't you, and I think that depends to a large degree on your conscience.

01:53:12.520 You know, if you're interested in something, you're trying to figure it out.

01:53:18.180 If you thwart that, then you thwart the part of yourself that's interested in things and trying to figure them out, and I can't see that's for the best for anyone.

01:53:25.840 And I do believe that, all things considered, free speech is a lesser evil than constrained speech, because someone has to decide what the content of the speech is going to be.

01:53:37.260 And it's, I don't see that we should give that power over to someone lightly, no matter who they are.

01:53:46.760 Partly because things change, too.

01:53:48.460 Just because something happened to be the case a year ago doesn't mean that it's the right solution now.

01:53:52.920 And so, we have to engage in these sorts of discussions to keep everything up to date.

01:54:00.600 You know, there's conformity, and that's back to rule one.

01:54:04.140 There's conformity in social institutions.

01:54:06.560 Hooray!

01:54:08.860 Abide by them, but the underlying environment shifts around.

01:54:13.340 And so, sometimes the traditions of the past are no longer functional and have to be updated.

01:54:18.200 And the only way we can figure out when that's going to happen is by communicating about it.

01:54:22.980 And so, you don't want to constrain that, because we all end up out of date and paralyzed.

01:54:29.820 Yeah.

01:54:30.220 So.

01:54:31.300 Yeah, I think there's a feeling of maybe a fear of, like, paralyzation or something.

01:54:34.860 I guess it's not as much a reality now that I think more about it as much as it is just kind of a fear.

01:54:39.600 Um, but also a fear to speak up.

01:54:42.680 So, I think I just feel afraid to talk about things sometimes or to even raise my hand and ask questions because of things I've seen of people being, you know, deplatformed or hammered on.

01:54:54.680 It's certainly more like that than it was 10 years ago or 20 years ago.

01:54:59.640 I certainly feel that way much more.

01:55:02.380 So, that's not good.

01:55:02.980 And what happens in history when that happens?

01:55:04.820 Is that, does things usually, like, work out okay?

01:55:08.220 I guess so, because we're here.

01:55:15.100 That's what we hope for.

01:55:16.340 I guess it depends on whether or not we let the fear stop us.

01:55:19.720 Yeah.

01:55:20.620 Right?

01:55:21.640 And if enough people let the fear stop us, then that won't be good.

01:55:25.640 Yeah.

01:55:26.060 So, we'll try not to do that and hope that suffices.

01:55:31.840 Yeah, I'm going to try not to do that.

01:55:33.520 Um, I had a question about, um, so I notice, uh, whenever I was young growing up, like, um, I was thinking about, like, my first kiss when I was growing up, you know, when I was a kid.

01:55:46.600 And, and, um, and I notice as I get older and get involved with women and that sometimes I, I, I, I, I feel like I spend so much time trying to kind of recreate the initial moments that I had.

01:56:01.600 Like, like, the, that initial kiss moment that I had, you know?

01:56:04.700 Like, I remember my first kiss, like, when I was moving towards her face, I just remember feeling like, like, the ships were crossing to Troy.

01:56:11.940 And I remember feeling like, you know, like, Sparta and just like, you know, like, Denzel Washington was there.

01:56:18.520 Like, everything was going on inside of my body, you know, it was like every, the whole, like, you know, the, like, everything was there, you know, the Grand Canyon was there and everything was there in this moment.

01:56:29.720 Like, watching me just be in a part, like, it was in my skin, waiting to see if I could land this kiss with this girl.

01:56:36.060 And I think I've romanticized sometimes like moments like that in my, that's great in my future that I'll never be able to get back to those moments, you know, like, um, that was great.

01:56:48.820 Look, like I still chase that high.

01:56:50.700 I still chase that novelty.

01:56:52.080 You know what I'm saying?

01:56:52.740 Like, even now and no moment now will ever live up to those initial moments, but sometimes I'm obsessed with the feelings that were in the, the novelty of youth.

01:57:03.940 And it's like, I'm constantly trying to recreate those and nothing ever suffices.

01:57:10.660 And so everything sometimes feels like a little bit of a exhale.

01:57:16.140 Yeah.

01:57:16.840 Well, I, I wrote about that in two chapters in, in beyond order in it's rule eight, I believe, which is make one room in your house as in your home as beautiful as possible.

01:57:27.840 And rule 10, which is plan and work diligently to maintain the romance in your relationship.

01:57:33.940 And both of them focus to some degree on the nature of the experience that you just described.

01:57:42.500 You know, there's a certain pristine, um, there's a pristine and transcendent reality to experiences of, of being in love and experiences that are associated with childhood before everything becomes stale with repetition.

01:58:01.580 Yeah.

01:58:02.260 And part of the question of life is to how to rekindle that so that, so that you can, and it's even associated with what we were talking about earlier, which is that nostalgia for more primitive conditions.

01:58:13.840 Um, I, in, in, in rule eight, I suggested that people cultivate a relationship with beauty because that is one way of inviting that, that feeling of awe.

01:58:27.520 I mean, I think I, you did such a great job of describing how significant that first kiss was, you know?

01:58:33.380 Oh yeah.

01:58:33.760 Even Tarzan was there now that I think about it.

01:58:36.840 What's that?

01:58:37.320 Even Tarzan was there now that I think about it.

01:58:40.020 Right, right.

01:58:40.840 Well, all, all, all romance, all the, the romantic tropes, all the movies focus on exactly that experience.

01:58:47.920 You know, can you recreate that within the confines of an ongoing relationship?

01:58:52.880 Well, it takes a tremendous amount of effort.

01:58:55.480 It's not, that's the thing about youth is you get these gifts, right?

01:59:00.300 When you're older, you have to work at it, but it's worth working at.

01:59:04.540 And you can, you can set up romance in a permanent relationship that can be extraordinarily intense if you're, if you want that and if you're willing to work for it.

01:59:17.680 Yeah.

01:59:17.940 And it's worth it because otherwise you abandon it and that's not good.

01:59:21.160 And the same goes for beauty.

01:59:23.040 One of the great things that artists do is remind us of what's right in front of us.

01:59:28.720 Because as you get older, what you see is more and more memory and less and less of the thing itself.

01:59:34.540 And an artist comes along, if he's a real artist, just whacks you on the side of the head and says, no, look at it this way.

01:59:42.060 And you look at it that way and you think, oh yes, that's, now I remember.

01:59:46.460 Yeah.

01:59:46.940 And I like chapter.

01:59:49.400 Go ahead.

01:59:49.920 Sorry.

01:59:50.180 And I haven't gotten to eight and 10.

01:59:51.500 I'm stuck.

01:59:51.960 I'm stuck in three.

01:59:53.640 I'm not, I didn't mean to be, but there's a lot of big word.

01:59:56.480 You got to be, it takes a little time.

02:00:00.200 Hey, no problem.

02:00:01.300 Um, um, I like chapter eight, I think better than any of the other chapters because it does concentrate on this experience of, of youth and, uh, and the, the, the ability to be immersed so completely that's characteristic of childhood.

02:00:17.660 And, and does, there's an idea, you know, that the kingdom of heaven is something that's already inhabited by children, right?

02:00:27.680 Unless you become as little children, you'll know, you'll know, in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven.

02:00:32.220 And that is a, it's a poetic echo of the fact that those experiences are possible, but with effort and discipline and aim, you can reduplicate them at least to some degree in your adult life.

02:00:46.920 And that's definitely worth, uh, that, that can be worth the effort, especially if you find yourself longing for it.

02:00:53.580 Yeah.

02:00:54.840 Yeah.

02:00:55.220 A lot of, I mean, even I remember after our last conversation, a lot of things come down to effort really, and really living, um, you know, uh, effortly living, you know, cause living after a while, it becomes sometimes, especially in this and, and, and, and our country that you're kind of floating in a, you know, in a little bit of a cushy river kind of, you know?

02:01:17.040 So I think, yeah, if you really want to live, if you really want to challenge your soul and get into whatever's in you or, or, or experience anything, experience some things more than the gratis that is kind of like cloaked on us each day in America, then you have to really make an effort.

02:01:40.220 Um, one of the things I noticed in, that's relevant to that, um, I think you need a meaning to sustain you in life because life is difficult.

02:01:54.480 And so the meaning has to be proportional to the difficulty.

02:01:58.800 I think everyone knows that and wants that.

02:02:02.740 Um, whenever I talked to audiences about that and pointed out that.

02:02:10.220 It's through the adoption of responsibility that you're most likely to encounter those meanings.

02:02:15.360 The audiences would generally go silent because that isn't an equation that's often made, right?

02:02:22.920 Is that while you need meaning, that's better than happiness.

02:02:26.480 Happiness is a consequence, I would say, a fortunate consequence of the pursuit of something deeply meaningful.

02:02:32.080 But almost everything that's deeply meaningful requires the willingness to adopt responsibility.

02:02:37.720 And so that's a good thing to know because you might ask yourself, well, why should I adopt responsibility?

02:02:45.280 And the answer to that seems to be something like, wow, well, it, it deepens your life.

02:02:49.720 Cause I want meaning.

02:02:50.540 I want something more.

02:02:51.540 No, it's a great, cause I think a lot of us are swimming around thinking that something meaningful will show up.

02:02:58.460 There's so many, there's so much advertising and so much, this is important.

02:03:04.200 This means something.

02:03:05.200 This is valuable.

02:03:06.300 And a lot of it is, um, is pyrite, man.

02:03:10.000 It's pyrite.

02:03:11.620 Um, do you remember your first kiss, Dr. Peterson?

02:03:14.700 Was it in Canada?

02:03:18.120 Yes, it was certainly in Canada.

02:03:20.980 My man.

02:03:21.780 I remember the first time I held hands with my, the woman who became my wife.

02:03:27.700 Wow.

02:03:28.800 What were you guys outdoors or indoors?

02:03:31.840 It was high school graduation and she had been a friend of mine, but that was our first date.

02:03:37.340 And that was an unparalleled thrill, I would say.

02:03:43.060 So, but I was able to duplicate that many times in our marriage.

02:03:46.900 Thank God, with her cooperation and participation, it was something we really concentrated on, making time for romance.

02:03:56.600 Once you get married, romance sort of becomes number 11 on a list of 10, um, necessities.

02:04:04.120 You know, it's still up there, but it gets pushed out by everyday concerns, work and domestic responsibilities and children and all of that.

02:04:13.060 Um, you have to force it back up into the top three or four and, you know, that also stabilizes your relationship across time and is good for your kids and good for you.

02:04:24.640 So, that's, that's worth, that's worth the work and it's really useful to know that it is work.

02:04:31.480 You need, it is work.

02:04:32.880 It's not just going to happen and the fact that it isn't happening for you, it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you.

02:04:38.440 It just means that it's, it's work.

02:04:42.660 You, you have to aim at it.

02:04:44.320 You have to aim at it.

02:04:45.780 Do you remember if you kind of, did you reach for your wife's hand or did she make that first initial move?

02:04:50.960 Do you remember or no?

02:04:53.020 Yes, I do remember actually.

02:04:54.660 She took my hand.

02:04:55.920 Yeah.

02:04:57.120 Mm-hmm.

02:04:58.220 That's cool, man.

02:05:00.000 Mm-hmm.

02:05:00.300 She was much more confident in that regard at that time than me and probably still now for that matter.

02:05:05.100 I know you speak a lot about your granddaughter in your book, like, not a ton, but there's a couple moments so far that I've noticed where you'll kind of reference her or watching a child grow and some things that they learn.

02:05:18.200 What, is that your first grandchild that you have now?

02:05:21.480 Yes.

02:05:22.200 I have another one now.

02:05:23.580 I have two, but she was the first.

02:05:25.260 How, has it changed any of your views of being, like, alive or the importance of family or just maybe just any of your, do you notice anything different in your heart or your brain?

02:05:41.800 Obviously, there's going to be some stuff in your heart that's obvious, but has any of your...

02:05:47.260 It's mostly cemented home, the notion I had, that there's, there's really nothing, in the final analysis, there's, there's your, there's the career, your career and your family, you know, and your family is half your life or more.

02:06:06.000 And I don't know what you do when you're old if you don't have grandchildren, you know?

02:06:13.980 I mean, it's not like they occupy all my time, but it, it would be, there'd be such a hole there.

02:06:20.380 Yeah.

02:06:21.080 Oh, I can imagine.

02:06:22.320 Yeah.

02:06:22.940 Sitting there and eating soup by yourself and just doing solitaire maybe or something, you know?

02:06:28.040 Well, and not being able to interact with children.

02:06:31.820 Yeah.

02:06:32.200 Because children are revitalizing, as well as being exhausting and frustrating and all of those things, but, but they are revitalizing and they're like fire, you know?

02:06:41.480 If, if you put a two-year-old among a group of 75-year-olds, the 75-year-olds don't do anything but watch the two-year-old.

02:06:48.480 They're fascinated by, by the child and to see all that new potential coming to manifest itself.

02:06:55.560 I mean, those are the sorts of things that cultures tell you, you know, get married, stick together.

02:07:02.300 Well, why?

02:07:03.160 Well, it's for the children, but that's to your benefit as well.

02:07:07.860 And then it's for the grandchildren because that's to your benefit as well.

02:07:10.840 It's a, it's a good long-term solution, even though it's very difficult and requires all sorts of sacrifice.

02:07:17.800 And, but you lose that and you get all fractured up and it isn't obvious to me what, what you do then when, as you age.

02:07:26.020 So it's made me more aware even of the, of the great privilege of having a family that loves you and how valuable that is above everything else.

02:07:40.580 Yeah, that's powerful, man.

02:07:44.720 And it's, uh, I can imagine, I don't have that yet, but sometimes I feel myself like, I constantly kind of feel myself coming to some of the same, like I'm in a cul-de-sac.

02:07:53.380 And I think sometimes it's what I'm looking for is probably a family of my own.

02:07:58.660 You know, I'm actually, I've had fear about kind of taking some of those next steps, but I think some of what I am looking for is just more a sense of like, this is my tribe or this is my group or this is, I don't know, something.

02:08:14.160 I can feel it kind of, um, yeah, well, if you didn't, people who felt that had children and that's how we're all here.

02:08:22.560 And so, yeah, it's a, it's a huge part.

02:08:28.660 It's a huge part of life and it gets a bad rap.

02:08:31.980 It's a responsibility rap again.

02:08:34.080 It's like, well, you know, can you really be with one person for the rest of your life?

02:08:38.800 And is that realistic now that people live so long?

02:08:42.120 And well, I don't know if it's realistic or if you can be with one person for the rest of your life, but there are definite, coming up with a better alternative is no simple matter.

02:08:52.360 And it's a blessing to have young people around that care whether you're alive, you know, as you get older.

02:09:00.500 So I wouldn't, I don't think it's a good idea to deny yourself that.

02:09:06.380 So it's been a real gift.

02:09:09.740 Yes.

02:09:10.140 Well, and you should, you know, this chapter about romance in relationships might be particularly useful to you if you're thinking about having a family, because I do believe that it's possible to keep that romantic vision alive.

02:09:24.220 You have to make it a name.

02:09:26.240 Like you have to really work at it.

02:09:27.520 You think, well, what do I want?

02:09:28.600 How would I like to have a date with my wife?

02:09:31.760 Well, what would you like to see her wear?

02:09:35.040 Or how would you like to arrange the music?

02:09:37.640 You know, all of these things, people are afraid to attend to them.

02:09:43.360 But if you attend to them, you can get good at it.

02:09:46.980 And then you can make something magical.

02:09:49.080 And then the magic that you can create with the same person over and over stops you from being frustrated that it's the same person.

02:09:58.140 There's no magic to that.

02:09:59.100 Yes.

02:09:59.500 So, and I think you need to know that that's possible.

02:10:04.460 Yeah.

02:10:06.080 Yeah, man.

02:10:06.820 I think sometimes we just don't hear that kind of stuff enough, you know?

02:10:09.800 No, I know.

02:10:10.880 It's a great reminder.

02:10:11.760 I know we don't.

02:10:12.760 It's a good reminder.

02:10:13.220 One more question I wanted to ask you.

02:10:16.960 This was about, you know, I've been in recovery for like five years, I guess.

02:10:21.960 And I've struggled recently in the past year during the pandemic.

02:10:24.740 But I'm still a strong believer in recovery and in the 12 steps of recovery.

02:10:30.520 Why do you feel like the 12 steps of recovery or the 12 steps work well for so many people?

02:10:38.000 And do you think that that's the best modality to obtain sobriety for addicts?

02:10:47.020 Well, it isn't obvious that there's a good alternative.

02:10:52.100 So that's the first thing.

02:10:54.280 If AA doesn't work, it isn't like there's a preferable treatment.

02:11:00.580 Most people cease alcohol use on their own without medical intervention.

02:11:06.920 We don't know why, although religious transformation seems to be one.

02:11:11.020 And, of course, the 12 steps capitalizes on that.

02:11:13.660 I think that it's quite an intelligent program, psychologically speaking.

02:11:20.300 You know, first of all, you have to make a moral inventory.

02:11:23.520 You have to figure out what's wrong in your life, which would obviously include the alcohol misuse.

02:11:30.220 You have to rectify that, take responsibility for it, try to chart out a new course.

02:11:36.920 And you're also provided with a social structure, which is really useful when you're trying to stop drinking.

02:11:43.460 Because it's very probable that most of your friends are going to be drinkers.

02:11:48.580 And so that leaves, not only do you stop drinking, but you stop associating with your friends or maybe even with your family members.

02:11:54.940 That's really hard.

02:11:56.580 Yeah.

02:11:56.960 So, you know, an AA doesn't seem to be an exploitative organization.

02:12:02.280 It's all volunteers.

02:12:06.920 And speaking strictly clinically, it isn't obvious that there's a better alternative.

02:12:12.880 If you are being strictly scientific, you'd say, well, there's never been controlled trials of AA where you randomly assign people to the AA group and to the non-AA group or another treatment to see head-to-head which works better.

02:12:27.640 And there's the problem that many people drop out.

02:12:31.320 And so you can't tell exactly what the success rate is.

02:12:34.360 But that's, in some sense, a technical argument.

02:12:40.020 It also isn't clear to me that AA does people harm.

02:12:43.740 Right.

02:12:44.540 Which is also really important because many medical treatments can produce harm.

02:12:50.380 And so the worst you could say is, well, maybe it won't work.

02:12:56.260 So.

02:12:57.500 Yeah.

02:12:57.940 And that's not that big of a risk.

02:13:00.320 Right.

02:13:00.760 Especially if you're already wasting.

02:13:02.200 Comparatively speaking, yes.

02:13:03.960 Yeah.

02:13:04.100 If you're already all sick or something, you know, you've been.

02:13:06.820 So what do you think, what do you think it was that enabled you to stop drinking?

02:13:13.840 Like, why did you manage it?

02:13:15.760 What did you use as an alternative?

02:13:19.080 Well, I noticed when I went, well, my problem was cocaine, but I worried that if I drank, I would do cocaine.

02:13:24.680 I never had a problem drinking, but I was worried that one could lead to the other.

02:13:29.280 Yes, undoubtedly.

02:13:30.080 I think, well, one thing, it gave me a place where I realized that other people were sharing their thoughts and feelings, and I'd never been in that kind of environment before.

02:13:42.200 And so to me, so that was one of the big things was the emotional sobriety.

02:13:48.720 And then it helped me have a relationship with a higher power, which I'd never really had.

02:13:54.400 Right.

02:13:54.720 And what difference did that make, do you think?

02:13:56.640 Oh, man, that made, it was the first time in my life I felt like something cared about me unconditionally.

02:14:09.860 And you experienced that?

02:14:11.420 Oh, and I experienced at a level that shook me, man, like I got electrocuted.

02:14:14.840 Like it was, yeah, that a God just, that some invisible thing cared about me at a level that I could never even imagine.

02:14:25.440 And that, no matter if I was good or bad, or if I did something naughty or nice or cinnamon or spice, man, that this thing loved me.

02:14:35.500 And that was, I just never felt that before.

02:14:39.780 So for there to be a way to get to that feeling, that's what made recovery feel like important to me, I think.

02:14:47.880 Hmm.

02:14:48.380 Yeah, well, to have an experience like that is a real gift.

02:14:51.260 Yeah.

02:14:52.300 It was just, it was powerful.

02:14:55.520 Dr. Peterson, I don't want to take up a ton of your time, man, but I just, I think once again, it just reminded me that life is a program of effort, you know?

02:15:03.600 Um, and if we want to see changes and if we want to experience something different than the circle or the, even the, the figure eight that we're in, or even the trapezoid that we're in, that we have to, that we gotta, uh, we gotta make an effort, you know?

02:15:22.220 We really gotta make an effort.

02:15:24.480 It was good talking to you, like it was last time.

02:15:27.720 Appreciate it very much.

02:15:28.880 You too, Jordan.

02:15:29.560 Thank you so much for your time, and, uh, congrats on the new book, and I look forward to finishing it, and, um, you look great.

02:15:35.980 And congratulations on your continued success.

02:15:39.020 You too, brother.

02:15:39.600 I'll chat soon.

02:15:41.360 All right.

02:15:41.740 All right, cheers.

02:15:42.320 Good talking with you.

02:15:43.200 Thank you.

02:15:43.540 Now, I'm just floating on the breeze, and I feel I'm falling like these leaves.

02:15:49.420 I must be cornerstone.

02:15:54.600 Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind I found.

02:16:00.140 I can feel it in my bones.

02:16:04.380 But it's gonna take a little time for me to set that parking brake.

02:16:12.880 And let myself unwind Shine that light on me

02:16:19.840 I'll sit and tell you my stories

02:16:25.520 Shine on me

02:16:30.520 And I will find a song

02:16:34.740 I will sing it just for you

02:16:38.140 And now I've been moving way too fast

02:16:45.680 On a runaway train with a heavy load of my

02:16:48.820 Past

02:16:50.540 And these rails that I've been riding on

02:16:56.160 They're worn so thin that they're damn near gone

02:16:58.900 And my girls now

02:16:59.700 They just weren't built alone

02:17:01.780 Yeah, and I can feel like a happy soldier

This Past Weekend with Theo Von - March 11, 2021

E328 Dr. Jordan Peterson

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