This Past Weekend with Theo Von

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00:00:28.600 The fans, the tradition, the glory.

00:00:33.080 There's nothing more thrilling than college football, and I'll agree to that.

00:00:36.820 I mean, it blows the pros out of the water.

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00:01:24.700 We've got tour dates to announce.

00:01:28.700 Louisville, Indianapolis.

00:01:32.060 We added a show in Indianapolis.

00:01:33.760 Shreveport, Louisiana.

00:01:36.320 Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

00:01:38.720 Corpus Christi, Houston.

00:01:41.800 We added a show in Houston, added a show in Phoenix,

00:01:45.020 added a show in New York City,

00:01:46.760 and added a show in Austin, Texas.

00:01:49.260 Those are all at TheoVaughn.com slash T-O-U-R.

00:01:55.100 Make sure to do ticketing through those links to get accurately priced ticketing.

00:02:00.340 And thank you, guys.

00:02:01.260 That's all Return of the Rat Tour.

00:02:03.200 So if you've already seen it, it'll be similar to that still, just so you know.

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00:02:20.320 We've got the new Rat King T-shirt in purple and black.

00:02:24.160 That thing.

00:02:25.300 That's the thing, baby.

00:02:26.700 If you haven't seen that one, check it out.

00:02:28.980 TheoVaughnStore.com.

00:02:31.220 Today's guest is a Grammy Award winning musician and producer.

00:02:37.080 He creates...

00:02:39.240 He's one of the most creative people I've ever met.

00:02:41.640 He's a friend of mine.

00:02:43.500 And he's someone I really enjoy talking to and haven't gotten to speak with him in a while.

00:02:48.960 So I'm grateful for our opportunity today.

00:02:52.620 He has produced music and written music for and with some of the top artists in the world.

00:03:02.000 I'm excited today to catch up with him, to learn a little bit more about his creative process,

00:03:07.140 and to just spend some time furthering our friendship.

00:03:10.700 Today's guest is the one and only James Blayton.

00:03:16.160 Shine that light on me

00:03:20.060 I'll sit and tell you my stories

00:03:25.760 Shine on me

00:03:30.760 And I will find a song

00:03:34.980 I've been singing along the stairs

00:03:37.360 What are they called? Lazy Boys?

00:03:46.400 The things that...

00:03:48.160 I saw one in Friends at one point.

00:03:50.020 You did?

00:03:51.020 I don't know.

00:03:51.880 Lazy Boys are not a really big thing.

00:03:53.440 They're not a thing in England.

00:03:54.920 Bring your mic in.

00:03:55.700 Okay, there we go.

00:03:56.440 With a seat, you mean?

00:03:57.260 Yeah, like, what they call a lazy boy doesn't exist in England, I don't think.

00:04:03.340 Well, I think because we got it, once they got to America, people probably got more lazy, I would guess, right?

00:04:07.400 And they're like...

00:04:08.120 Do you think that's what it was?

00:04:09.260 It was...

00:04:10.220 Okay, so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

00:04:12.140 I feel like a little bit maybe...

00:04:13.640 It's a circular situation.

00:04:14.940 Like, I think the first chairs didn't even have a seat on it.

00:04:18.560 It was just like a straight-up piece of wood.

00:04:20.580 And then someone lazy sat on it.

00:04:22.020 Yeah.

00:04:22.360 And then they had to create...

00:04:24.120 Yeah, they're like, ah, this could be better.

00:04:26.240 Right.

00:04:26.560 Yeah.

00:04:27.040 Right.

00:04:27.480 That's interesting.

00:04:28.260 It's funny that we got to America and created a lot of, like, lazy stuff, you know, maybe.

00:04:32.380 I don't know where the lazy stereotype came from.

00:04:35.720 I mean...

00:04:36.560 I mean...

00:04:39.520 It seems like a pretty industrious place.

00:04:42.200 Yeah, especially around the time when they got it.

00:04:44.060 Well, I think, yeah, because then they hit the Industrial Revolution, you know.

00:04:47.640 I think a couple...

00:04:48.540 I don't know when people even got here.

00:04:50.220 I mean, there's a lot of speculation, but...

00:04:53.600 But you're from...

00:04:55.940 Originally from Britain.

00:04:58.500 I'm from England, yeah.

00:04:59.360 You're from England.

00:05:00.260 And so if somebody says England, is that more top shelf than, say, in Britain?

00:05:05.140 No.

00:05:06.060 No.

00:05:06.300 You know, I'll be careful how I say this.

00:05:10.320 No, no, no.

00:05:11.240 No, it's not.

00:05:12.380 I mean, everywhere in Britain is, you know, it's just a sort of...

00:05:17.820 It's a collection of places when you say Britain.

00:05:20.500 And I'm part of Britain as well.

00:05:22.860 I'm part of the UK.

00:05:25.200 Yeah.

00:05:25.540 I'm also probably a mix of a lot of different things, you know, historically.

00:05:29.640 So I think I'm a bit Irish, a bit Welsh.

00:05:34.360 Ooh, the Welsh I hear about sometimes.

00:05:37.000 Yeah, they travel.

00:05:38.000 Well, is he Welsh, Darren Till, do you think?

00:05:41.400 Is he Welsh, that UFC guy?

00:05:45.060 Look that up, Zach.

00:05:46.080 Can you look up if Darren Till is Welsh?

00:05:48.940 I don't know.

00:05:49.740 You know what?

00:05:50.200 I've really lost track of UFC recently.

00:05:52.860 Yeah?

00:05:52.980 I don't know why.

00:05:53.340 Yeah, I haven't watched it for a couple years.

00:05:55.440 He's English.

00:05:55.960 A couple years.

00:05:57.660 Can he be both?

00:05:59.100 He could be both.

00:06:00.100 Ah.

00:06:00.400 He could be both somewhere.

00:06:02.080 I mean, the Welsh is, I think it's a dominant gene.

00:06:05.080 Ooh.

00:06:06.000 Oh, he's a Liverpool man.

00:06:07.760 Yeah, I gotta, I wish I had a better.

00:06:09.640 Oh, you got the, okay.

00:06:10.520 I wish I had a better chart about the British.

00:06:12.400 I don't have a good, you know, I believe in it.

00:06:16.180 I've seen a lot of the, you know, I believe, I just, I mean, I gotta see.

00:06:19.880 I wish I knew more.

00:06:21.960 About the British?

00:06:23.140 Yeah, just kind of what it feels like.

00:06:25.020 I feel like you have better posture inside of your soul.

00:06:27.700 Like, that's what I think it feels like when you talk, when the British, they have like.

00:06:31.760 I think this, this, this myth that we're sophisticated is very, it's pervasive.

00:06:38.340 Right.

00:06:38.880 But I honestly don't know where it comes from.

00:06:42.260 And I think, I think it's just the way we sound.

00:06:45.940 It's not real.

00:06:46.760 I, you know what I mean?

00:06:47.680 Mm-hmm.

00:06:48.080 I think sometimes phonetics and like someone's accent can make them seem something.

00:06:55.400 And then it's just all, can be complete bollocks.

00:06:58.560 I mean.

00:06:59.120 Yeah, because the British, they sound like when they're talking, like there's perfectly set

00:07:02.060 silverware on the side of their mouth.

00:07:03.520 That's what it feels like to me.

00:07:04.700 Yes.

00:07:05.420 When I hear someone British talking, like even to that little spoon and you're like, what

00:07:08.840 is that for?

00:07:09.500 You know?

00:07:09.960 Yeah.

00:07:10.300 When they say it's for shrimp, you're like, how would you even use this on a shrimp, you

00:07:13.320 know, without being a pervert?

00:07:14.400 The little spoon.

00:07:15.360 You know?

00:07:15.880 The little spoon.

00:07:16.640 The little spoon is for, I mean, for sugar in tea, I guess.

00:07:22.660 I really don't know.

00:07:23.640 I mean, the spoon differences in size of teaspoons here, it, you know, it catches me out a lot

00:07:31.440 just when I'm making, if you want to make anything.

00:07:34.600 But yeah, I think when I see British people, I guess there is like that.

00:07:36.880 Yeah.

00:07:36.980 I feel like I do feel a sophistication.

00:07:39.340 I feel like I, I feel like I'm like they came out of the library and they're giving me

00:07:44.260 information for, I feel like there's something about it to, to an American person, you know?

00:07:49.200 I just, again, I don't know where it comes from because I think when I came over here,

00:07:54.140 I noticed that a lot of the smartest people I'd met were from over here.

00:07:59.380 I mean, I don't know, you know, it's just, you've got smart people everywhere, dumb people

00:08:03.740 everywhere.

00:08:04.220 And you also were getting into an age where you were probably going to start meeting more

00:08:08.080 people.

00:08:08.540 You were in your field.

00:08:09.800 Yes.

00:08:10.240 So.

00:08:10.760 Yes.

00:08:10.980 And also, you know, when it comes to musicians, we're not, we don't tend to be the most kind

00:08:21.080 of articulate people for some reason.

00:08:26.000 I think we're not the best people to have conversations with.

00:08:30.040 I find that with musicians.

00:08:31.680 Um, so I had to branch out, not because I'm such a great conversationalist, but because

00:08:37.160 I just, I noticed that a lot of my conversations with musicians tended to be more one dimensional.

00:08:45.280 And then outside of that, there wasn't like a broad, and I myself didn't have like a broad

00:08:50.900 knowledge of stuff.

00:08:51.700 And, and because I think music sort of funnels you into like a, you know, it's a bit like,

00:08:58.080 it's kind of like Pavlovian conditioning, right?

00:09:00.240 If you, if you get, uh, if you're rewarded for, for kind of your, your primary way of

00:09:07.580 speaking, which is through music, probably if you're like a writer or a musician, and

00:09:12.020 likelihood is that you're, you're better at articulating your emotions through music.

00:09:15.580 And then outside of that, you can be kind of stumped.

00:09:19.300 Um, which is, I think you find like a lot of like very sort of socially anxious musicians

00:09:24.480 and stuff, which I've definitely been myself.

00:09:26.640 And then, yeah.

00:09:30.320 And then you, then you're rewarded for, for that one expression, you know, constantly,

00:09:36.520 maybe, maybe become successful hopefully.

00:09:38.700 And then, then people pay you for that expression.

00:09:41.560 And no one's paying you to talk.

00:09:43.220 Yeah.

00:09:43.680 No one's, no one's paying you to express yourself in any other way or be funny or whatever

00:09:47.900 it is.

00:09:48.580 Right.

00:09:48.940 So yeah, you, so you're going to have so much like, yeah, you start to feel like that's

00:09:52.540 where some of your reward is, is at.

00:09:54.800 And so that's where your, most of your value is at.

00:09:57.100 And so then, yeah, it makes sense to me.

00:10:00.560 Yeah.

00:10:00.800 And then I think after that, you just start to all the other muscles atrophy.

00:10:06.300 Right.

00:10:06.740 So, so then chatting is not, I mean, when I met my girlfriend, I, I wasn't really finishing

00:10:16.100 sentences because I don't think anyone was sort of required me to.

00:10:24.120 Yeah.

00:10:24.380 Yeah.

00:10:24.780 They'd just be like, oh, we know, we know what he means.

00:10:27.600 He's probably, that was probably very funny wherever that was going.

00:10:31.800 Um, it's funny.

00:10:32.700 Well, this is great because this is how you and I met.

00:10:35.280 I met your girlfriend and, um, she was a comedy fan.

00:10:39.460 She loves comedy.

00:10:40.400 Yeah.

00:10:40.700 She loves to laugh.

00:10:41.900 And, uh, she introduced me to your special.

00:10:43.880 Oh, she did.

00:10:44.500 Yeah.

00:10:44.720 And, uh, we came to see you.

00:10:46.420 Oh, that's right.

00:10:46.500 The first one.

00:10:46.860 That's right.

00:10:47.240 You guys came to see me.

00:10:48.400 Um, where did we see you?

00:10:49.660 Um, comedy store, store.

00:10:52.980 What's the, what's it called?

00:10:54.240 Yeah.

00:10:54.340 Comedy store.

00:10:55.020 Comedy store.

00:10:55.460 Yeah.

00:10:55.820 Well, yeah.

00:10:56.240 Cause I remember one time I saw her at the comedy store and, uh, she was like, yeah, I'm

00:11:00.480 going to catch a Uber or something.

00:11:01.540 And I was like, I'll, I'll give you a ride home.

00:11:02.760 You know, she's like, I don't live far.

00:11:03.680 And I'm just thinking like, I'm like beautiful girl.

00:11:06.980 Oh, I got my hopes up.

00:11:08.560 I got my hopes up, bro.

00:11:10.420 My hopes have been, you know, I couldn't even, my hopes have been lost.

00:11:13.540 I've been like, I'm like, I'm like literally while she's talking, I'm like, hopes, hopes,

00:11:17.060 hopes, get over here, man.

00:11:18.160 I'm going to pick you up.

00:11:19.580 So I got my hopes up and, uh, I drive her, um, you know, I drive her.

00:11:24.680 It's, it's in Hollywood and it's kind of in the hills.

00:11:26.800 Not, not, not, it's, it's in a nice place.

00:11:29.920 It was a couple of, yeah.

00:11:30.860 We've actually moved since then.

00:11:32.140 Not far.

00:11:32.640 Yeah.

00:11:32.800 Yeah.

00:11:32.960 Yeah.

00:11:33.260 Not way out there, you know?

00:11:35.140 Yeah.

00:11:35.680 Yeah.

00:11:36.200 But, um, and then I, she's like, you have to meet my boy.

00:11:39.880 Well, that's not a good impersonation, but she's like, you've got to meet my boyfriend.

00:11:43.480 Yes.

00:11:44.120 And I was like, Oh God, he sounds like a great guy.

00:11:49.360 Um, and she goes, no, he would absolutely love you.

00:11:52.380 Or she might've already said that he's a fan of yours or, yeah.

00:11:55.700 Yeah.

00:11:55.860 And then, uh, you guys came to the comedy store.

00:11:57.860 Yeah.

00:11:58.040 Yeah.

00:11:58.160 Yeah.

00:11:58.380 I was very nervous to meet you at the time.

00:12:00.320 Yeah.

00:12:00.560 Yeah, I was.

00:12:02.140 Well, yeah, because I think, you know, there's this, um, there's this mutual, like, uh, mutual

00:12:09.380 appreciation, I think between comedians and musicians.

00:12:12.040 I think a lot of musicians want to be comedians and a lot of comedians want to be musicians.

00:12:16.020 And, you know, that's, that's like a general rule, although I haven't ever heard you express

00:12:20.780 interest in being a musician.

00:12:22.780 Uh, but, and nor, nor do I want to be a comedian, but I think, I, I think there's, I didn't really

00:12:29.820 have any comedian friends at that point.

00:12:31.740 Yeah.

00:12:32.040 Uh, and we'd been watching a lot of standup comedy and we'd been going to the like comedy

00:12:36.860 store and we've been going to like different shows and I just kind of felt intimidated

00:12:42.120 by the idea that I needed to be funny.

00:12:45.040 Oh, you know, I thought like, not only did I, did I really respect what you did, but I

00:12:50.080 don't get, I don't really get starstruck particularly.

00:12:53.720 Yeah.

00:12:54.740 Because just through exposure to, you know, the industry and stuff, but I also, but in

00:13:01.280 this one way I sort of felt insecure.

00:13:03.060 I was like, wait, I think I told you this before.

00:13:05.600 Um, I was like, I'm, you know, don't have to like, don't have to be on, don't have to

00:13:09.960 like be funny and be smart and whatever.

00:13:13.180 Cause your comedy was, was smart and it was funny.

00:13:16.160 And it was, I was like, what's he, and I didn't really understand the difference between

00:13:22.800 the stage and the, the offstage kind of person really.

00:13:27.120 Well, I think it's interesting because yeah, it's funny when I've talked to you sometimes

00:13:30.500 I'm like, dang, do I need to know a lot about music or can I just share about music, how

00:13:35.460 I think and feel about it in that I don't know that much.

00:13:38.680 Do I have to pretend like I know all of the names of every one of your songs?

00:13:42.500 Like, I think that happens a lot of times when you meet somebody of a certain thing,

00:13:46.160 of a certain genre, like what are they going to expect?

00:13:48.620 And yes, you do, you do, you do.

00:13:51.000 That's so interesting.

00:13:51.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:13:53.480 Um, so, you know, I'll be quizzing you on that later if, you know, when you're ready.

00:13:58.380 Okay.

00:13:59.000 Yeah.

00:13:59.300 There's a, I mean, I do have some, I do have some favorites, man.

00:14:02.020 It's funny you say that you're not that like, um, word, what do you say that words weren't

00:14:06.340 very per like, I, uh, articulate.

00:14:10.800 Yeah.

00:14:11.460 Well, I don't, I'm not saying I'm not in any way articulate.

00:14:14.120 I'm just saying that as a general rule, musicians, like I had to find my words really, you know,

00:14:20.360 it was a process.

00:14:21.360 Like I think you, if you'd met me maybe sort of seven, eight years ago, I probably would

00:14:26.140 have, well, I probably wouldn't have sustained a friendship for a start because I think I

00:14:30.120 would have been intimidated or not been socially kind of comfortable enough to be, especially

00:14:34.900 not to do this.

00:14:35.640 I mean, there's no way I'd have come in here.

00:14:37.740 This would have been way too much.

00:14:39.660 Wow.

00:14:40.020 Yeah.

00:14:40.680 That's incredible, man.

00:14:41.760 That's right.

00:14:42.180 We've talked about a lot of this kind of stuff.

00:14:43.740 This is where a lot of our friendship kind of started was talking about that sort of thing.

00:14:46.640 Yeah.

00:14:47.220 Yeah.

00:14:47.500 I was admired how open you are about, you know, mental health and like all this other

00:14:52.320 stuff and, and, and your own kind of shortcomings or your own kind of, uh, things you don't

00:14:58.400 know.

00:14:59.140 Yeah.

00:14:59.420 You know, that's always been amazing to me.

00:15:01.540 And I think that's probably, to me is like a huge strength of yours is, is, is being the

00:15:07.800 voice of people who, who are afraid to ask questions because they're worried that they're

00:15:13.380 going to be, you know, made fun of or, uh, in some way kind of, uh, mocked because, you

00:15:19.980 know, cause there are a lot of things.

00:15:21.000 And I mean, it's hard to do sometimes to ask a question, especially when you feel like

00:15:27.480 the world is so fast and it knows more than you, you know, especially these days, if you

00:15:32.460 feel like you're sometimes from a certain area or from a certain financial class, I would

00:15:37.860 be scared.

00:15:38.540 I remember when I was young to ask questions in like a nice person's house.

00:15:41.520 Right.

00:15:41.840 Like if it was a dump, I was like, I was just, you know, I'm just out, you know, I'm Alex

00:15:49.000 Trebeck in there if it's a dump, but if it was a nice place, I'm like, Whoa, I shouldn't

00:15:53.840 be asking nothing in here, you know, what does the little spoon do, you know, stuff like that.

00:15:58.640 Yeah.

00:15:59.200 But yeah, it was just, it's interesting how like different little comfort worlds that

00:16:03.080 people find and, and where you're okay to communicate and, uh, yeah, it's scary.

00:16:08.440 Communication is kind of interesting.

00:16:09.780 I mean, it's.

00:16:11.840 I mean, obviously it's interesting.

00:16:14.440 That's kind of a silly thing to say, but no, but you do it really well.

00:16:17.020 And I think you, you managed to, I mean, I don't know how you sit and talk like on your

00:16:22.480 solo shows.

00:16:23.580 No, it's miserable.

00:16:24.720 Sometimes it must.

00:16:25.980 I mean, it must get hard sometimes because I don't know how you sustain that level of

00:16:31.460 talking for that long.

00:16:32.920 It's like an improvisation.

00:16:34.180 I've, I sometimes, I mean, I was thinking about it yesterday, thinking about things that

00:16:39.080 we have in common because I, cause, um, I just, there's some, like, I know we have some kind

00:16:48.000 of like friend chemistry that I sort of like, but as well, but as on top of that, I think

00:16:52.260 we have a kind of, there's some similarity between the way you think and the way I think

00:16:59.780 when it comes to the music and I think sometimes when I, when I, when I see the way you're reaching

00:17:05.680 for words, it's like, um, I find when I'm reaching for chords, sometimes I have to find

00:17:16.800 a kind of abstract chord or like some kind of, well, maybe an unusual, you know, like

00:17:23.160 a, an unusual chord or whatever to, to, to nail the emotion I'm looking for.

00:17:31.740 Right.

00:17:32.680 And it's because the standard ones won't, won't do the standard ones.

00:17:38.140 Don't current, you know, don't quite scratch the itch of what I'm trying to think.

00:17:42.640 Yeah.

00:17:43.000 The Roy G Biv, it doesn't have enough color.

00:17:44.920 It's not the, you want to, you're very specific.

00:17:47.720 Yeah.

00:17:47.940 And it's like looking for that very specific hue and you seem to do the same thing in the

00:17:53.220 words.

00:17:53.480 It's like when you're looking for like a word to describe it, I don't know, it was like

00:17:58.160 a dog, it was like a floor bearer.

00:17:59.480 I can't remember.

00:18:00.360 You just have this like, you know, you want to get specific because you want them to know

00:18:05.120 exactly what you feel.

00:18:07.060 Yeah.

00:18:07.500 And it's like, or what you mean.

00:18:09.360 Yeah.

00:18:09.760 And so, you know, the, the basic language doesn't always cut it.

00:18:14.400 That's interesting, man.

00:18:15.820 You know, you have that, what is it?

00:18:17.580 You have that lyric.

00:18:18.340 I could drink a case of you and not follow.

00:18:20.420 Well, that's a Joni Mitchell lyric, which is an even better lyric than I've could ever

00:18:24.500 write.

00:18:24.980 Yeah.

00:18:25.220 It's a cover.

00:18:25.720 Oh, no, no, it's a cover, but it's, it is the, one of the best songs ever written.

00:18:31.780 So I didn't know that.

00:18:32.980 Yeah.

00:18:33.480 That's so good, man.

00:18:34.720 Thanks, man.

00:18:35.320 Yeah.

00:18:35.680 Yeah.

00:18:36.120 Yeah.

00:18:36.480 Thank you.

00:18:37.040 Thank you.

00:18:37.660 On behalf of Joni Mitchell.

00:18:38.900 Yeah.

00:18:39.360 Yeah.

00:18:39.760 Um, what is something that I love, uh, Oh, the, I gave you punchlines.

00:18:49.440 Oh, yes, man.

00:18:51.240 That's a good one.

00:18:51.960 That one really, really resonated with me.

00:18:53.600 I gave them punchlines.

00:18:54.700 They gave me warning signs.

00:18:55.700 Yeah.

00:18:56.960 That reminds me so much of your music to me matters.

00:19:00.060 I mean, we'll get into your music so much of like, that is my song.

00:19:03.600 Yes, that is.

00:19:04.360 That is my, we were the way we, uh, oh, uh, say what you will say what you will.

00:19:09.420 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:09.860 God, dude.

00:19:10.700 Yeah.

00:19:11.400 Thanks, man.

00:19:12.580 Appreciate it.

00:19:12.980 Yeah.

00:19:13.140 I gave you punchlines.

00:19:14.000 You gave me warning signs.

00:19:14.960 That was like my whole, I felt like that was my whole childhood, man.

00:19:20.320 Wow.

00:19:20.500 It was like, you know, I would, all I had was like the way to make people feel something

00:19:26.360 was through laughter or something.

00:19:27.700 Yeah.

00:19:27.840 It was so like, um, but everything felt like a warning.

00:19:32.880 It was like the whole world felt like, everything felt like warning signs.

00:19:35.940 Yeah.

00:19:36.040 Any reaction people would give to me, I had to monitor every moment of it because I was

00:19:41.440 always scared when it would go from everything was okay to everything was not okay.

00:19:46.520 Yeah.

00:19:47.300 And man, it was, it's, uh, yeah, you have such a way.

00:19:51.260 It's like watching somebody.

00:19:55.260 Well, first of all, you're like a sound monkey.

00:19:57.080 Like you like, you're like, oh, you're listening to your music and you're like, oh, that's a sound.

00:20:01.140 Okay.

00:20:02.220 I didn't know that was a sound.

00:20:04.260 Like you're like, I can almost see this like chimpanzee, like swinging out into the unknown

00:20:10.300 and then being like, this is a sound, you know, it's, um, well, you're doing that with what you do

00:20:15.680 that with words.

00:20:16.280 It's funny.

00:20:16.960 And, and I, maybe that's some of what it is, you know, some of it in, in like what you described

00:20:22.560 earlier, like just then, um, the, the, the kind of.

00:20:29.600 Um, exploration is like when you, in order to emotionally regulate yourself, you've kind

00:20:39.000 of got to find, uh, words or comedic moments or chords in my case to, to just make it feel

00:20:49.860 better.

00:20:50.940 And that happens once and it feels a little bit better.

00:20:55.040 And you're like, okay, you subconsciously twig that that's now going to be your, you know?

00:21:01.820 And, but yeah.

00:21:03.400 Like this is a place to go.

00:21:04.600 This is a court I can use.

00:21:06.020 This is a nice landing spot or a foothold.

00:21:09.560 It's almost like you're doing some mountain climbing.

00:21:11.140 Like this is a, a grip.

00:21:13.140 Exactly.

00:21:13.960 And it's not, it's like, like I, I remember like when I was, when I was a kid, there was

00:21:18.500 this one standout, I mean, it was a small moment, but I remember it very vividly, which

00:21:23.120 is where my friend was, um, really was one of my best friends, but you know, I didn't

00:21:29.280 have many friends.

00:21:29.860 I just have like one friend at a time.

00:21:31.840 It was like, you know, like a shop.

00:21:33.720 It was like one in, one out kind of thing.

00:21:36.720 And I just had this day where he, he just relentlessly took the piss out of me.

00:21:43.360 Right.

00:21:43.920 And he was just being so cruel to me.

00:21:46.000 Cause, and I think that when I was, when somebody was my only friend, I think they, they felt

00:21:49.580 they knew they could do that.

00:21:50.520 Right.

00:21:51.340 So just, you know, when I was much younger, like eight or nine or something.

00:21:57.760 Anyway, so this kid is, is, uh, I'm just like, oh, I was just feeling terrible.

00:22:04.440 And I go into the other room and I start playing piano.

00:22:11.060 Just, I just get up.

00:22:12.920 Oh, yeah.

00:22:13.360 Just go and start playing piano.

00:22:15.140 He comes in and, uh, and just mocks me even harder for coming over to play the piano to

00:22:21.840 like, to, to like, oh, is this your sad song that you're writing?

00:22:24.640 Cause blah, blah, blah.

00:22:26.720 And I remember thinking at the time, yeah, it is the sad song I'm writing because you're

00:22:32.520 taking the piss out of me.

00:22:33.500 It is the sad song.

00:22:34.720 And that just, that just is, and always was my, uh, my way of, uh, you know, it's like

00:22:45.460 if, if I became like a pressure cooker.

00:22:47.540 Yeah.

00:22:48.480 Emotionally.

00:22:49.160 Then the only thing I had, the only outlet that I had was music.

00:22:53.400 It was the only way I could get it out.

00:22:54.760 Or if you were like, even like a rice cooker, like that was your rice.

00:22:57.760 That was my rice.

00:22:58.820 Yeah.

00:22:59.240 Yeah.

00:22:59.700 That's cool, man.

00:23:00.700 Yeah.

00:23:00.880 I learned to make, you know, like a, like a sous chef, like a Japanese sous chef.

00:23:04.180 I learned to make the rice so many times, um, you know, day in, day out that eventually

00:23:10.920 I became a, a, um, a restaurateur.

00:23:15.420 Yeah.

00:23:16.420 Like a, I was going to say Michelin star, but that would be, that would, that would be

00:23:20.840 high, you know, highly self-aggrandizing.

00:23:23.240 I think that's easy to say, man.

00:23:24.760 I think a master of, of, of musical rice.

00:23:28.020 I got, I got good at rice.

00:23:28.960 Yeah.

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00:26:17.940 Well, I think, like, you know, I'm kind of a, I don't want to say your music is for, like, emotional people, right?

00:26:25.860 Because I don't want to judge your music.

00:26:28.120 You know, I'm kind of an emo kind of guy, like, in a lot of ways.

00:26:32.320 Sometimes, yeah, your songs, it's almost like, I feel like the length of your song is, like, the length that takes a tear to go from, like, an eye to a cheek sometimes.

00:26:42.280 It's strange, like, some songs.

00:26:44.660 Some of them are more ballads, you know.

00:26:46.560 Some, I feel like it's, like, somebody, like, hitchhiking just through, like, a bunch of emotions, kind of.

00:26:53.920 Yeah, they're all, they're very, they're, like, highly emotional things.

00:26:59.240 Also, gentlemen.

00:26:59.980 Yeah, that's why it seems so specific to me, what you do.

00:27:02.180 It's like, God, this seems like, it's not like somebody laid some cement.

00:27:06.940 It's like, each thing here is, like, somebody put a step here.

00:27:11.980 Right.

00:27:12.180 And this one is a certain depth from the soil, and it's a certain softness to it of the stone or whatever it is.

00:27:19.460 It seems very.

00:27:20.960 Intentional.

00:27:21.580 Yes.

00:27:22.020 Yeah, actually, I think there's two, there's good and bad that can come from being so intentional and being perceived to be so intentional, right?

00:27:33.580 So sometimes it's not intentional, and it just seems like it is, because I'm improvising, and I was just feeling a certain way, and it just came out like that.

00:27:44.500 And then I just edited it and just, like, put it in the song, right?

00:27:48.220 And so in moments like that, I think when the perception becomes, okay, you're super intentional and you're always in control, ultimately, it leads to a place where you have to keep up.

00:28:06.740 Like, A, keep up that image, but B, people don't question you.

00:28:12.620 You know, people will just, like, assume that you know what you're doing.

00:28:18.360 And when you're working with people, they're just like, oh, I'm sure he knows what he's doing.

00:28:23.300 I'm sure that's fine.

00:28:24.320 I'm sure that's good.

00:28:25.520 And they just gaslight themselves, because it might just be shit.

00:28:29.340 It might just be not a good melody or not a good lyric or whatever.

00:28:32.700 Oh, so it can almost corner you in a way.

00:28:34.760 Yeah, definitely.

00:28:36.460 Oh, that's interesting.

00:28:37.760 Yeah.

00:28:38.100 People don't tend to...

00:28:39.360 And it's brave you to notice that and just say that.

00:28:41.340 Like, yeah, sometimes my own ability or how people perceive some of my ability can then corner me into a place where I'm not getting probably earnest feedback on if something is quality enough for the situation or not.

00:28:55.220 Yeah.

00:28:55.520 And also people, because they're not as advanced at exactly the thing you do, they might be as advanced at something else.

00:29:02.920 But because they're not as advanced at exactly the thing you do, and the exact way that you came up doing that up the mountain, you're not speaking the same language.

00:29:19.020 You know, they don't feel that they have the knowledge to confront you on the idea that's not good sometimes.

00:29:27.080 Oh, I could see that too, especially.

00:29:28.700 Well, that's one thing I was going to say about when I met you.

00:29:31.040 Since you're taller and British, or sound British anyway, I'm thinking, oh, man, you seem older than you are.

00:29:41.680 And not saying you're not a great age, but when I first met you...

00:29:45.400 I'm 34.

00:29:46.780 Are you really?

00:29:47.280 Just turned 34, yeah.

00:29:48.320 Well, congratulations.

00:29:49.200 Thank you very much.

00:29:50.340 But I thought that you were a lot...

00:29:52.500 It just gives you a wiseness, I think, to people that maybe you don't even know, I think.

00:29:57.540 So that probably adds into the same thing where it's like, oh, man, this guy's a dang wizard, you know?

00:30:04.580 Do you think there's...

00:30:05.960 For an American person anyway, I'd be like, yeah.

00:30:08.340 No, I don't know.

00:30:10.000 I think people have a...

00:30:12.640 Do you believe in old souls and young souls and stuff like that?

00:30:15.280 I don't know how much...

00:30:18.000 I mean, it's obviously not something I could prove, but I think these kind of phrases mean something.

00:30:27.520 Right.

00:30:28.140 I don't know if they always mean exactly what, you know, the literal sense of like, you know, someone having been here many times or whatever.

00:30:35.440 But whatever people are trying to say when they say that...

00:30:38.080 Right.

00:30:38.400 I do identify with that.

00:30:41.160 I've always felt like...

00:30:43.400 A little haunted.

00:30:44.100 It doesn't...

00:30:44.520 Yeah.

00:30:44.940 It doesn't mean that I'm...

00:30:46.260 It doesn't mean that I'm like in any way a wizard or in any way like...

00:30:52.460 No.

00:30:52.680 Because I think actually, if anything, I'm inferior.

00:30:55.820 I feel kind of insufficient in a lot of ways.

00:31:00.540 It's...

00:31:00.900 You're a desk clerk at that point.

00:31:02.160 You're running a hotel for souls.

00:31:05.300 Yeah.

00:31:05.920 Right.

00:31:06.360 You know, like you're at a certain point.

00:31:08.700 Yeah.

00:31:09.700 Sorry to step on you there.

00:31:11.080 No, no, no.

00:31:11.900 But I think that's kind of what it's like.

00:31:13.860 If it feels like...

00:31:15.320 Some people, it feels like it's their first time through the galaxy.

00:31:18.160 You know, you meet them.

00:31:19.060 It's like, oh, this is a baby soul.

00:31:20.500 It feels like.

00:31:21.540 And it's not even judging that having...

00:31:23.380 If you feel like you resonate with being an old soul, that it makes you better or anything.

00:31:27.560 No, it doesn't.

00:31:28.260 It just makes you...

00:31:29.120 You're a damn...

00:31:29.680 You know...

00:31:30.180 You can be more cynical.

00:31:31.220 You can be more sort of jaded.

00:31:33.220 You can be...

00:31:33.840 Yeah.

00:31:33.880 You can feel kind of...

00:31:35.840 Too much.

00:31:36.560 You can feel too much.

00:31:37.620 You can...

00:31:38.120 Yeah, easily overwhelmed.

00:31:39.340 You can feel maybe...

00:31:40.780 I mean, and these...

00:31:41.940 Obviously, these character traits aren't just applied to the old soul, but they can be applied

00:31:46.540 to any couple of different character or personality types.

00:31:52.560 And there's all sorts of psychological analyses and assessments that you could put on this.

00:31:57.240 But I think I feel sometimes...

00:32:01.660 I mean, my job extends beyond produce.

00:32:06.180 I mean, I'm a producer, but I feel a lot of the time like a therapist.

00:32:11.940 And like a therapist, a lot of therapists are very fucked up.

00:32:17.200 They're not people who you should necessarily take all of your life lessons from.

00:32:25.200 Or indeed, they might not be practicing exactly what they preach.

00:32:31.880 But, you know, they're also people who've got an overwhelming sense of empathy and probably

00:32:39.920 quite easy to overwhelm themselves.

00:32:41.180 And they've learned to vocalize what it is that they're feeling so that other people

00:32:48.220 can vocalize what they're feeling.

00:32:51.180 Yeah.

00:32:51.660 You know, I think I realized...

00:32:52.800 And obviously, I haven't gone to school to be a therapist.

00:32:55.180 No.

00:32:55.280 I'm nothing like a therapist in any way.

00:32:57.120 I don't know, man.

00:32:58.080 I think that...

00:32:58.600 But your music might be, right?

00:33:00.500 Right.

00:33:00.860 And that's okay.

00:33:01.740 And that's what's interesting sometimes about having any sort of gift in the world.

00:33:05.660 I believe everybody has some gift.

00:33:07.460 It could be...

00:33:08.320 Some people's smile might be their song.

00:33:10.420 It's like, man, they just smile at you.

00:33:13.260 And it is like...

00:33:14.500 It can lift you up just as much as hearing like, you know, some Michael McDonald or something.

00:33:20.020 Yeah.

00:33:20.180 Or some...

00:33:21.260 Trying to think of something good.

00:33:22.520 Love Michael McDonald.

00:33:23.420 Yeah.

00:33:23.680 Or Nelly or something.

00:33:24.560 Nelly.

00:33:25.660 Love Nelly.

00:33:27.460 How did you draw the line between Michael McDonald and Nelly?

00:33:30.600 How did that...

00:33:31.800 I was just trying to get some diversity in there.

00:33:33.300 Just two therapy.

00:33:34.380 Yeah, I was trying to get...

00:33:35.160 I think I was trying to get diversity.

00:33:36.720 Right.

00:33:37.000 And Nelly...

00:33:37.360 Two therapeutic guys.

00:33:38.740 Well, Nelly was the last time, I think, that a lot of white people felt like they could

00:33:42.660 really dance, honestly.

00:33:44.280 That's interesting.

00:33:45.100 When he came out with Country Grammar.

00:33:46.640 And this is almost a little bit before your time, but when he came with...

00:33:48.920 I remember it.

00:33:49.820 Yeah.

00:33:50.140 God.

00:33:50.540 I remember feeling like...

00:33:52.380 I remember thinking, this is an amazing song and I still can't dance.

00:33:54.560 Yeah.

00:33:57.420 I mean, it was just our last hurrah with the legs.

00:34:03.100 It was the last Caucasian hurrah.

00:34:05.320 Anything...

00:34:06.040 So when things were still moving below the hips.

00:34:08.980 Yeah.

00:34:09.320 Right.

00:34:09.880 Yeah.

00:34:10.080 So how did you...

00:34:14.320 So in terms of like your...

00:34:16.740 Because I want to know more about the connection between your upbringing and comedy and why you

00:34:28.340 sort of went into it, like what were there moments where you got a laugh from saying something in a certain way and it helped the situation?

00:34:40.780 It helped like your relationship with someone or it stopped the situation from going badly or whatever.

00:34:47.160 So it became like almost like a, you know, diplomatic kind of tool or whatever.

00:34:54.040 So I think, you know, I think I didn't have a lot of feelings as a kid.

00:35:03.380 I didn't have a lot of like comfortable feelings probably.

00:35:05.760 Right.

00:35:06.420 You know, there wasn't a lot of comfort in our home and there was a lot of question marks and not a lot of information.

00:35:13.780 So there wasn't a lot of information.

00:35:17.700 There was a lot of attention to learning.

00:35:24.140 You know, my mom made sure that we were learning.

00:35:27.700 Like reading and...

00:35:29.880 Yeah, reading, doing our homework, you know.

00:35:33.060 But always reading.

00:35:34.420 And my mother was an English major.

00:35:37.620 That's interesting.

00:35:38.420 So she, you know, knew words and she would use big words and she would use words that they would try to kick out of our town.

00:35:46.320 You know, I remember they would come with torches when she'd use certain words.

00:35:48.920 They'd never seen it, you know.

00:35:50.660 They'd be like, she's a witch.

00:35:52.340 She's a whore.

00:35:54.020 And my dad would be like, I wish she was, you know.

00:35:57.040 And so it was like, you know, my mom really probably had one of the best vocabularies in our town.

00:36:01.840 Right.

00:36:02.980 But I didn't have much affection for my mother and that's okay.

00:36:06.020 She didn't have a lot to give.

00:36:07.280 And so I think I probably somewhere in my head thought that, well, if I have words, if I'm using words, maybe she'll see me.

00:36:14.980 You know, or if I'm...

00:36:16.080 Wow.

00:36:16.640 If, and when I'm, once I started to make people laugh, I'm like, oh man, they, you can make somebody...

00:36:23.280 I just never knew if I was, if I was okay to my mother.

00:36:26.300 I never knew if I was approved of by her.

00:36:30.420 So once I saw...

00:36:31.120 She withheld the approval.

00:36:32.440 Yeah.

00:36:32.720 And I don't even know if she knew she was, she didn't know she was doing it.

00:36:35.200 No, people sometimes don't.

00:36:36.600 Yeah.

00:36:37.280 She just had like this kind of emotional kind of autism where she didn't understand that that was necessary.

00:36:43.100 And so I think once I saw somebody laugh, it was like, oh, it was like, I'm okay for a minute.

00:36:49.640 Got it.

00:36:50.240 You know?

00:36:50.620 And so then I think that just became an addiction that was beyond...

00:36:54.320 I didn't have a choice at that point, but...

00:36:57.600 Yeah.

00:36:57.640 You're just compelled to do it.

00:36:58.960 It was, yeah.

00:37:00.100 Because you have to, I think, feel okay at certain points as a human.

00:37:04.000 Absolutely.

00:37:04.580 Yeah.

00:37:04.900 And also all of it is a survival thing.

00:37:07.200 I mean, it's like anything that you had to do, even the things that you're ashamed of...

00:37:12.760 Yeah.

00:37:14.160 ...ultimately have to be chalked up to something that got you by, something that kind of helped you survive.

00:37:20.940 Yeah, I'm grateful that our arts at least aren't like looked down upon very much by society because a lot of people, they end up into the dark arts or things that are, you know, more taboo.

00:37:33.740 And it's just their survival methods, you know?

00:37:36.140 I mean, I look at like strippers and, you know, some sex workers and stuff like that sometimes like, oh, they're just trying to, you know, express themselves or something.

00:37:46.260 Well, yeah, I mean, also it's just, it's just a job, isn't it?

00:37:51.800 And I guess, I guess the, I'm not overly educated on the complexities of sex work, but I'd say...

00:38:03.260 I would do a little.

00:38:05.660 I probably, yeah.

00:38:07.460 Yeah, ultimately.

00:38:09.380 If it came down to it, to feed your family.

00:38:12.040 Gotta do what you gotta do.

00:38:12.900 And, um, I mean, I, I felt like I was compelled to do music.

00:38:19.280 Did you?

00:38:19.720 Well, it sounds like it, even from that story of like, you know, you're like, I'm gonna go in the other room here if my buddy's being a real prick and I'm gonna express myself, you know?

00:38:27.860 Yeah.

00:38:28.300 So, yeah, I think it's just interesting how our expression comes out, like...

00:38:31.760 Yeah, I mean, it was, maybe it was the...

00:38:34.440 I wonder if it's written, it's kind of written, the writing's on the wall from the moment you kind of...

00:38:41.440 Oh, is it destiny or is it like...

00:38:43.340 Well, it's like, I don't really believe in people being naturally talented, particularly.

00:38:49.020 I don't really believe in kind of genetic, I mean, maybe predisposition or like some inherited kind of consciousness, but I don't really believe in people being like born with a gift and shit like that.

00:39:01.380 So, do you believe that music, like, so you were very inclined, especially, I don't know all the instruments you play, James.

00:39:08.620 Sorry, I've just got to pat this down because it so easily looks like I've got an erection in this thing.

00:39:13.020 It kind of like tents up like that very, very easily.

00:39:17.520 Dude, do it.

00:39:18.420 I mean, I'm having a good time, but I just, you know.

00:39:23.400 Like, sell some tickets, bro, raise that tent, man.

00:39:27.880 I could do a revival in there, man, it's good.

00:39:32.420 Is piano like your main instrument?

00:39:34.380 Is that okay to say or no?

00:39:37.260 Yeah.

00:39:37.580 I mean, you play other instruments.

00:39:38.760 No, no, no, it is my main instrument, yeah.

00:39:40.140 Right, because when I see you on stage, you're at the keyboard or the piano, right?

00:39:42.980 Yeah, yeah.

00:39:43.360 Okay.

00:39:43.580 Yeah, do you feel like that, yeah, that art, say art is just like an energy and it's going to come out of people.

00:39:54.940 It's going to find its way out into the world because it's just the way the whole world is kind of put together that the energy has to come out.

00:40:02.200 And so it finds its way through you, so you can harness it or adjust to it, but that it's, or you can choose to use it or not.

00:40:13.060 Maybe if you never even get to the keys and it just kind of hits a cul-de-sac inside of you.

00:40:18.240 Yeah, yeah.

00:40:18.680 Is that kind of more what you feel?

00:40:20.160 Like, it's just...

00:40:20.900 That's a nice way of putting it.

00:40:22.080 I think I sometimes feel sorry for musicians and artists and stuff rather than kind of mythologize them or kind of put them on a pedestal.

00:40:38.860 Because in order for you to have arrived at that point where you need music as your expression, something had to happen.

00:40:46.720 You know, and something had to make you boil over so much that there was only one way that was going to be, you know, and it just happened to be this.

00:41:01.020 But it's not necessarily the most comfortable life.

00:41:04.340 Not to say it's the worst life.

00:41:05.920 I mean, I'm still super privileged to do what I do and I'm very lucky.

00:41:13.620 But I'm also one of the lucky ones.

00:41:15.640 You know, there's millions of musicians who are not rewarded in the same way for basically expressing a lot of pain.

00:41:26.400 And it's not an efficient method of doing it either.

00:41:33.860 Like, I don't really feel that much better after I make a song.

00:41:38.200 If I'm depressed, I'm just depressed.

00:41:40.040 If I'm anxious, I'm just anxious.

00:41:41.820 If I'm sad, I'm just sad.

00:41:44.640 And, you know, making a song isn't going to fix that.

00:41:48.080 And I had to find other ways eventually.

00:41:51.020 But it felt like if we were to extend the pressure cooker analogy, it's like through art, I was basically just like letting a little steam out every now and again.

00:42:05.460 But I was never just like turning it off.

00:42:07.240 You know, it's like I wanted to turn it off.

00:42:11.240 I wanted to stop the endless swell of pain and anxiety and depression and stem the flow.

00:42:19.960 And I had to find other ways to do that.

00:42:22.780 And once I did that, I was able to look at music a bit more objectively.

00:42:28.100 And it didn't have to prove everything.

00:42:32.060 It didn't have to be everything all at once.

00:42:34.840 There was less pressure on the songs.

00:42:36.780 I didn't have to, like, be the biggest artist.

00:42:39.620 I didn't have to, like, prove myself to the kids at school.

00:42:43.960 I didn't have to prove myself to even myself, you know, or less anyway.

00:42:48.620 I mean, there's always going to be a bit of all of those things.

00:42:51.660 Yeah.

00:42:52.040 But there's less pressure on the art.

00:42:54.340 Wow, that's fascinating.

00:42:55.720 Yeah, because when you identify with it so much, which is what happens sometimes as you get successful, it's like this is it.

00:43:02.120 This is all you.

00:43:03.040 Not this is all you are, but there's you become so, like, in tandem with it that everything you do, every if you put out one wrong thing.

00:43:12.860 And you become so close to your thing, like, it's not just fluid anymore.

00:43:19.100 Yeah.

00:43:19.580 It feels like they're attached on you like sloths, kind of, and you can't get them off or you're afraid to let them just kind of just leave them on the path of the forest, you know?

00:43:31.500 Yeah, it's interesting because some of your music, I feel like I'm like Eeyore, like Eeyore that showed up at a rave, kind of, you know?

00:43:40.600 Which is kind of perfect for me.

00:43:42.220 I can totally see why, like.

00:43:43.940 That is who I am.

00:43:45.320 I like, okay, good.

00:43:46.560 Thank you for noticing me.

00:43:52.740 Thank you for letting me judge you, man.

00:43:54.420 Because I'm not Winnie the Pooh.

00:43:56.300 Yeah.

00:43:56.700 And I'm not Christopher Robin.

00:43:58.860 No, even though, but that's the, that's the ruse with you.

00:44:00.960 I think you might be Christopher Robin.

00:44:02.900 I don't know, maybe.

00:44:04.080 I got to look at some of this.

00:44:05.000 You might be Winnie the Pooh, actually.

00:44:06.880 I think I'm crossed up.

00:44:08.340 I think they had a child.

00:44:09.520 Yeah.

00:44:10.080 It could have been.

00:44:11.000 I mean, who knows?

00:44:11.720 They walked off into the sunset.

00:44:13.700 And after that, we don't really know.

00:44:15.540 We're missing a few chapters.

00:44:16.820 Yeah.

00:44:18.500 A.A. Milne let us down.

00:44:22.700 What was it?

00:44:23.500 So was there a kind of a moment?

00:44:24.700 Because you and I have talked about this.

00:44:26.000 And I forget some of the things you and I have talked about.

00:44:28.300 Because you and I, our friendship has just kind of had a hiatus through the pandemic.

00:44:31.540 Right.

00:44:31.760 Yeah.

00:44:32.000 Yeah.

00:44:32.100 And because I stayed in California, really, where I wasn't allowed out of my house.

00:44:36.840 Yeah.

00:44:37.140 You moved to, was it Nashville?

00:44:39.580 Tennessee.

00:44:39.900 Tennessee.

00:44:40.260 Yeah.

00:44:40.720 Yeah.

00:44:41.020 Where people are just, yeah, we're out here.

00:44:42.920 Yeah.

00:44:43.420 Yeah.

00:44:43.600 They're sneezing down each other's orifices.

00:44:46.160 You know?

00:44:46.760 Yeah.

00:44:46.980 Just testing the theory.

00:44:48.580 Yeah.

00:44:48.920 You know?

00:44:49.280 Yeah.

00:44:49.540 Yeah.

00:44:49.660 Everybody has Hep C now, but nobody has COVID.

00:44:52.400 Yeah.

00:44:52.840 Yeah.

00:44:53.200 They got everything else.

00:44:55.800 But yeah, was it, because I remember there was, I think I remember there was a time where

00:44:59.720 you kind of were, like, you and I talked about different modalities for relieving, like,

00:45:05.860 whether it be depression or whatever's going on in our lives.

00:45:08.920 Yeah.

00:45:09.160 Yeah.

00:45:09.260 Yeah.

00:45:09.440 And did you have a time where you kind of came to a head with some of that sort of stuff?

00:45:12.280 I did during the pandemic.

00:45:13.440 Oh, you tried to get me on an EMDR.

00:45:15.440 Yes, I did.

00:45:16.580 I was evangelizing EMDR.

00:45:18.920 And I even went.

00:45:19.660 I even went a few times.

00:45:20.540 Yeah.

00:45:20.880 And I see a woman now with EMDR.

00:45:22.760 That's amazing.

00:45:23.400 Yeah.

00:45:23.820 Yeah.

00:45:24.200 And I mean, I remember you saying it helped.

00:45:27.560 But initially, the thing with EMDR is that you don't really, you don't go and then afterwards

00:45:35.140 you, like, necessarily feel what's happened.

00:45:39.980 And it has this very strange, slightly sci-fi effect on you where you don't even remember

00:45:44.980 feeling the way you felt when you went in.

00:45:49.140 Tiny Bit Men in Black.

00:45:50.200 Uh, so a lot of people kind of come out of it and going, you know, oh yeah, I don't really

00:45:58.180 think anything happened.

00:45:59.100 But then they stop the pattern they've been in.

00:46:02.980 Yeah.

00:46:03.440 And they don't even realize.

00:46:04.380 And they're just like, oh, I didn't, um, you know, I didn't endlessly turn on and off

00:46:08.840 the, the hob and like check to see if it was still on or whatever the OCD thing is,

00:46:13.620 or like they didn't, they don't, that pattern just isn't manifesting anymore because the trauma

00:46:18.900 that leads to it has been disconnected, uh, from feeling it.

00:46:24.520 Yeah.

00:46:24.920 It is kind of Black Mirror, huh?

00:46:26.420 It's like you kind of go behind the scenes and adjust a cable or something.

00:46:29.740 Yeah.

00:46:30.140 And then the next time, like your Christmas tree lights blink, they don't blink in that

00:46:33.840 weird way that was uncomfortable or something.

00:46:35.680 Yeah, exactly.

00:46:37.260 Yeah.

00:46:37.600 That is behind the bookcase and interstellar.

00:46:40.860 Yeah.

00:46:41.260 It's kind of behind the bookcase.

00:46:42.720 Yeah.

00:46:43.560 Um, do you, are there other modalities and stuff that you've tried?

00:46:46.480 Um, I did mushrooms, which was quite very helpful for me, actually.

00:46:52.740 I mean, I, I go into a really bad depression when I take mushrooms because, um, I think

00:46:57.240 I'm allergic to them or something and just, just kind of, I, I go get really depressed

00:47:02.520 for a couple of days.

00:47:03.980 Um.

00:47:04.540 Afterwards or not during?

00:47:05.780 Afterwards.

00:47:06.280 Yeah.

00:47:06.700 No, during is amazing.

00:47:07.800 I love, I love them, but I've only done them a few times, but every time I've done them,

00:47:12.700 sometimes something's changed in my life, like majorly changed, um, I've either given

00:47:18.120 up an addiction or I've, you know, for example, I, I came off Twitter, uh, or stop, stop kind

00:47:26.880 of really using it.

00:47:28.820 Um, because I'm kind of checking it all the time and like being quite engaged in it and

00:47:35.060 invested in, in kind of what, how I was doing, you know, how other people's opinions and,

00:47:41.720 and even other people's opinions of what I was saying and, you know, very overwhelming

00:47:48.120 place for an artist, uh, someone who's easily overwhelmed, but also I think it's an overwhelming

00:47:52.660 place for a lot of people.

00:47:54.020 Um, and maybe they're not admitting it, uh, but, uh, and stressful.

00:47:59.840 Yeah.

00:48:00.240 Um, it feels stressful even hearing you say it.

00:48:02.600 Yeah.

00:48:03.100 And, and, um, and it was kind of at a point where a lot of conversations were reaching

00:48:10.320 a kind of fever pitch, um, politically.

00:48:12.700 And I just felt trepidatious about even being involved because I felt like all of my real life

00:48:21.320 conversations were really compassionate and empathetic and loving, even if we didn't agree

00:48:27.480 on something, you know, like ours, like we don't always agree on everything, but we,

00:48:32.180 we just, you know, we approach each conversation with love and respect.

00:48:37.200 So, you know, but on Twitter, it was like the opposite of that.

00:48:40.400 It felt like if you didn't have the right opinion for the, for the group, you know, you,

00:48:45.020 you were, you, you're sort of out of the group or whatever, whichever group that is.

00:48:50.080 Right.

00:48:50.180 Um, and I just felt really over time, really, really stressed about that dynamic and, and,

00:48:58.500 um, took mushrooms one day, uh, we were sort of on a, like a road trip and, uh, we were

00:49:07.260 sitting by a pool and I think this was the first time I actually ever did them was during

00:49:15.260 the pandemic.

00:49:16.340 Um, and I remember saying to my friend, I don't, I'm not really sure these are doing

00:49:22.460 anything.

00:49:23.520 Um, yeah, it's all they sneak, yeah.

00:49:25.660 Right.

00:49:26.720 And then he goes, well, you've, you've been taking a photo, you've been taking photographs

00:49:30.580 of that same flower for the last two hours.

00:49:33.280 And I noticed it and I looked down at my phone and there was like 400, I was like scrolling

00:49:37.440 through this 400 photographs of this flower is really beautiful flower, but, um, in hindsight,

00:49:42.380 probably the mushrooms had something to do with that.

00:49:46.900 So, um, I, so I just looked down at my phone, open Twitter and it just looked like a vortex.

00:49:56.840 Oh yeah.

00:49:57.540 It was a very, very strange, like it was like fragmenting at the edges, you know, like a,

00:50:04.820 like an actual vortex.

00:50:06.000 Um, and it looked like extremely dark energy.

00:50:12.380 It's hard to describe it, um, in sober word wording, but it was, you know, at the time

00:50:20.500 I would, would have just kind of felt this horrible, um, kind of anxiety looking at it.

00:50:26.860 And I just, there and then deleted the app and just put the phone down and just got on

00:50:32.160 with my day and I didn't reinstall it.

00:50:35.880 Um, and there were a couple of other things I did as well.

00:50:39.040 I did it with Instagram.

00:50:39.940 I did it with like a few other, cause I just noticed that the phone and actually the phone

00:50:43.940 itself was like, just looked like it was like charged with horrible, like nebulous, like

00:50:50.340 dark energy, like felt like a black hole basically.

00:50:53.800 Yeah.

00:50:54.380 And it felt like it was like drawing me towards it, but not in a good way.

00:50:57.560 Like in a way that, um, made me feel like I was dying.

00:51:01.800 So I just thought, no, I'm, that's telling me something.

00:51:05.000 This is, you know, I also noticed the way my dog reacts to my phone.

00:51:09.300 He very often pulls it away, but also just, just won't engage with it.

00:51:16.200 He'll only engage with me.

00:51:17.460 And if I'm engaging with it, then he'll, he'll just kind of walk off.

00:51:21.660 Wow.

00:51:21.820 So it's almost like, here's a piece of life telling you, Hey man, that's not life.

00:51:26.060 Yes.

00:51:27.000 Yeah.

00:51:27.160 That's what's interesting.

00:51:27.740 Very well put.

00:51:28.540 That's what's interesting about mushrooms, man.

00:51:30.120 It'll give you a little clue.

00:51:31.440 Like I did this ayahuasca treatment and I came home.

00:51:34.200 Right.

00:51:34.540 And I cut on like Dateline or some like murder show or something.

00:51:38.660 Oh, wow.

00:51:39.100 And yeah, probably.

00:51:41.200 Is that, is that, is that advised?

00:51:43.180 Was that, did your shaman tell you to do that?

00:51:47.360 I would say unadvised.

00:51:48.880 Right.

00:51:49.920 So I'd say I was working, you know, I was going off script.

00:51:53.500 Um, do you have another water too, Zach?

00:51:55.380 Do you mind please?

00:51:56.580 Um, so I was going off script, but I turned it on.

00:52:00.220 And there was everything in me was like, don't you see how bad this is?

00:52:04.140 Someone died and you're sitting here watching it as like a, wow.

00:52:07.320 And it wasn't, it was, it wasn't a Dateline episode.

00:52:09.800 It was like, um, some murder, like in bed, but something that was like really dark.

00:52:14.860 So it, it kind of, uh, exposes the, thank you, mate.

00:52:20.560 Yeah.

00:52:21.000 Exposes sometimes like it's just a level of truth that I think the addictiveness of modern

00:52:25.820 day society that we're not able to feel anymore.

00:52:28.680 And it almost feels like something that you would have felt like a long time ago and

00:52:32.120 like your ancestral, like, right.

00:52:34.400 If you, if you lived in a, in a more sort of primitive, like back in the day, like more,

00:52:40.080 you know, no technology, no.

00:52:42.320 And, and it's, it's as if somebody handed to you then.

00:52:47.160 Yeah.

00:52:48.660 You'd be like, this is bad.

00:52:49.820 And goes, and goes, um, you know, when you wake up, you're going to check this and you're

00:52:58.260 going to scroll through all the things that are happening way outside of your group.

00:53:04.440 Um, you're going to, you're going to check for the opinions of others and they're going

00:53:09.600 to tell you how you're going to feel today.

00:53:11.640 And you're going to watch a bunch of videos and you're going to watch, watch a bunch of

00:53:15.620 people have sex.

00:53:17.120 Uh, and you're going to watch, and you're going to like play games on here and they're not

00:53:22.420 here.

00:53:22.920 They're not in front of you with all these other people.

00:53:25.040 They're not interactions with real people.

00:53:26.460 You're going to play games on this thing.

00:53:28.380 Um, and most of your interaction, it, you know, you're, you're, you're going to, you're

00:53:34.580 going to look at this for at least 12 hours a day.

00:53:39.000 And when you set this down, you're going to feel like there's nothing of you.

00:53:42.920 When you set it down, you're going to be unsatisfied with what the world is like, because this thing

00:53:50.900 is going to stimulate you so much.

00:53:53.040 If somebody told you that when you had no technology and you'd never seen anything like that before,

00:53:57.140 you would tell them to fuck off immediately.

00:54:00.680 Yeah.

00:54:00.920 Get away from me with that fucking dark magic.

00:54:03.020 I don't want to ever see you again.

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00:54:29.460 That's the tough part.

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00:55:47.800 I love how even your meanness is pretty kind.

00:55:52.300 I don't want to ever see you again.

00:55:54.680 You'd kill them.

00:55:55.980 You might kill them.

00:55:56.840 Yeah, you might kill them.

00:55:57.600 You might kill them and throw this thing away so that no other human ever had to experience

00:56:01.860 this.

00:56:02.460 Yeah.

00:56:03.180 And just, I mean, it goes on, you know, all your friends, all your friendships are going

00:56:10.100 to be kind of regulated through this thing.

00:56:13.440 Well, you don't have a voice anymore.

00:56:14.840 It's like the talent.

00:56:15.780 If you get up and just stand up on a soapbox now and speak.

00:56:19.140 You look like insane.

00:56:19.800 You look insane.

00:56:21.140 Right.

00:56:21.520 If you were to.

00:56:23.620 Yes.

00:56:24.680 That's the crazy part too.

00:56:26.660 So it's like, we're all, there's no.

00:56:29.360 If I got up and just said like one of the more mundane tweets that I've ever sent, you

00:56:33.740 know, uh, hoping that a lot of people would be like, yeah, me too.

00:56:37.260 Yeah.

00:56:37.720 Like, yeah.

00:56:38.920 And then it would just like spin into virality and you just said it in the street on a, on

00:56:44.740 a soapbox or you just got up and said it.

00:56:47.060 People would be like, are you all right?

00:56:51.500 Yeah.

00:56:51.900 Go home.

00:56:52.940 This guy's not doing good.

00:56:54.320 Yeah.

00:56:54.580 He's saying, he's saying strange, relatable, mundane things, but I'm on my way to work

00:57:02.880 and I need to go and get a coffee.

00:57:04.960 And it's not.

00:57:05.640 Somebody would be like, you queer.

00:57:07.040 We can take that out.

00:57:09.180 But somebody would yell something like that.

00:57:10.720 I'd be like, maybe, but you know, but also porridge can be made with milk and, and, uh,

00:57:18.140 also water.

00:57:20.060 Yeah.

00:57:20.500 Don't you know, spread the news.

00:57:22.600 Yeah.

00:57:22.760 It's amazing with oat milk.

00:57:24.120 Um, you know, you've, you're some of your journey with music as an outsider, you know,

00:57:29.020 I didn't know even much about your genre of music until I met you.

00:57:31.980 And I remember my girlfriend at the time, Megan, I think it was, we came to see you perform

00:57:39.020 at a church over in.

00:57:41.620 It was Presbyterian church or was it, um, in downtown was that, that wasn't the Wiltern.

00:57:46.180 It might be the Presbyterian church.

00:57:48.140 It was like a cool nighttime show.

00:57:49.860 Was it actually a church?

00:57:50.980 I think it was.

00:57:53.580 Yeah.

00:57:54.060 Then it was Presbyterian, I think.

00:57:55.620 It was like some special show you were doing or something.

00:57:57.420 It was really amazing.

00:57:58.860 Um, when I got into more of your music, I listened like in the beginning you had a lot

00:58:02.980 of, or I don't know the total beginning, but early on some of the stuff you released

00:58:07.760 like these EPs that had like, it was just a lot of beats and sounds and, you know,

00:58:12.920 kind of wanderings.

00:58:14.140 Less like lead vocals, more, more kind of abstract, like collages of shit.

00:58:19.320 Yeah.

00:58:19.840 Yeah.

00:58:20.160 Was it scary to then put your voice out there?

00:58:22.360 Did you always know you were going to, because your voice is like a big thing, especially for

00:58:27.280 someone who comes from a place of like, you know, uncertainty or shyness or, you know,

00:58:32.480 some of the realms that we've talked about, like emotionally, like, was that scary to put

00:58:36.100 your voice out or did it seem like just the next instrument?

00:58:39.140 It was, I mean, there was a lot of, there was a lot of toxic masculinity floating around,

00:58:44.380 especially at that time.

00:58:45.400 But like, I remember when the first, like one of my earliest memories was, um, I was

00:58:53.780 upstairs in my parents' house and I was like 12 or 13 or something.

00:59:00.980 And I was playing, what I used to do, one of the ways I learned to train, I trained my

00:59:08.660 ear, which I didn't realize I was doing, but I just enjoyed doing it, was I'd play to records.

00:59:14.020 So I'd put a CD on and I'd sit at my like keyboard, like, you know, cheap, just piano keyboard

00:59:21.900 thing, like electronic, kind of think, think, uh, Ross from friends, you know, doing thing, uh,

00:59:28.720 pressing the little drum thing and playing.

00:59:31.820 Yeah.

00:59:32.600 And then playing to the CD and learning all the like vocal runs and like learning how to

00:59:39.400 play the chords and like Stevie Wonder and like Mariah Carey and all these people.

00:59:42.740 And I was playing at the time I was playing with the Whitney Houston song, uh, I can't

00:59:50.840 remember the name of the song, very famous song.

00:59:53.180 I will always love you there.

00:59:54.300 No, no, no.

00:59:55.080 It was, it was, I believe the children of the future.

01:00:01.480 Teach them well and let them lead the way.

01:00:05.260 Uh, yeah, you still remember the lyrics.

01:00:09.160 Amazing.

01:00:09.360 So that one, I loved that song and I was playing it and the chords are amazing.

01:00:16.520 They're like very, you know, they're a tiny bit cheesy.

01:00:20.040 It's a bit of a cheesy song, but it's like one of the best ever, slightly cheesy songs,

01:00:25.800 pop songs.

01:00:26.700 And so anyway, I'm, and I'm singing at the top of my lungs and the windows open and my,

01:00:36.100 I've got a couple of friends who live four doors down, right.

01:00:39.820 And I'm playing very loud.

01:00:41.060 I didn't realize the windows open.

01:00:42.460 Open the windows.

01:00:43.360 It's your first song on the radio, basically.

01:00:45.820 Basically.

01:00:46.300 Yeah.

01:00:47.060 And it's, it's me, it's me broadcasting this extremely kind of, I'd say at that point,

01:00:55.460 you know, being a, being a young man, uh, very Billy Elliot type moment.

01:01:00.480 Um, very, very, very, very, yeah.

01:01:02.460 Like very, like I'd say in terms of our understanding of masculinity at the time, not, not the most

01:01:10.640 masculine thing I could be doing.

01:01:12.860 Right.

01:01:13.520 Right.

01:01:13.900 And I remember at the time, one of them shouting some homophobic slur from three doors down.

01:01:21.640 Oh, dang.

01:01:22.520 And I'm just being like, you sound like probably, you know, and, and it really like crushed me at

01:01:29.220 the time because I didn't see music through a lens of like sexuality or, and I didn't see the

01:01:35.940 problem in being gay or being bi or being anything.

01:01:40.220 I just was like, but I did understand that there was a social kind of rejection of being gay and

01:01:47.300 a social, you know, all that.

01:01:49.640 And I just kind of froze and like, so I started to associate music and singing with something

01:01:59.100 shameful and feminine and like all these things that like were not, not accepted.

01:02:05.700 It went from like a hundred meter dash to like, just like hurdles now.

01:02:09.140 Like where you're like, now these, these different things have to make sure that they check enough

01:02:13.020 of these.

01:02:13.320 Yeah.

01:02:13.560 Like, don't be too, like, don't be too, don't express yourself too much because then you're

01:02:17.680 this and don't.

01:02:19.140 And so, you know, I sort of kept, and it wasn't just that, but there was multiple reasons why

01:02:24.660 they really showed anyone that I sang.

01:02:27.520 I would go to the practice rooms, uh, at school every day.

01:02:32.620 And I was, you know, very often like extremely sad and depressed and kind of going in there

01:02:39.640 and just playing and fucking crying and like being, you know, so British.

01:02:43.320 Very British.

01:02:44.300 Is that British?

01:02:45.200 Well, no, the British thing to do is to, is to, um, is to not find an outlet at all and

01:02:52.480 then just abuse somebody.

01:02:57.100 Whether it be physically or emotionally or, or indeed, you know, in any other way, just,

01:03:03.320 just find someone to, to kind of, um, or, or not even just someone, but everyone.

01:03:10.240 Yeah.

01:03:10.800 Just like make other people, uh, experience the pain that you're supposed to process.

01:03:16.180 Wow.

01:03:16.620 So, uh, I actually found a way, I found an outlet so I didn't have to like be a cunt

01:03:23.980 to everyone else basically.

01:03:25.460 And I, um, found myself just keeping it a secret.

01:03:32.400 Um.

01:03:33.800 That you had this talent.

01:03:35.580 Yeah.

01:03:36.060 Like.

01:03:36.420 Or that you were expressing yourself this way.

01:03:37.960 Yeah.

01:03:38.220 That I could sing and, and I could sing, you know, by that point I was a good singer.

01:03:41.780 I was, by the time I've been singing since I was two.

01:03:46.240 Yeah.

01:03:46.560 I mean, you hit some notes where I'm checking my watch.

01:03:48.340 I'm like, is this note going to end?

01:03:49.460 This dude is, my gosh.

01:03:51.840 It's like waiting for a long train to pass.

01:03:53.720 I feel like there's.

01:03:54.780 One of those American usual trains.

01:03:57.320 Jesus.

01:03:57.940 Come God.

01:03:58.680 This guy's just.

01:03:59.260 The Amtrak.

01:03:59.880 This guy's riding this, the B flat to North.

01:04:04.660 Um.

01:04:05.380 Yeah.

01:04:05.720 So, so that's, you know, like I ended up to cut a long story short.

01:04:10.420 Uh, eventually I started a little bit singing in like school, like assembly.

01:04:15.860 He's and shit, but I generally just kept it quiet.

01:04:18.460 And then when I was making music, I, I think I carried over that, that, uh, shame.

01:04:25.000 And I just, you know, the dance music scene was super male dominated.

01:04:30.800 Um, and a lot of the discussion around it is like, it's very, uh, it was very toxically

01:04:38.680 masculine at the time.

01:04:40.300 And so when I started to sing, there were a lot of comments a bit similar.

01:04:45.860 To what the guy had shouted at me three doors down, you know, like just very like, and,

01:04:51.820 but they did, they couldn't say like, because, you know, things had moved on and, and, and

01:04:56.700 they were adults and, and they were, they didn't want to like expose themselves as being

01:05:00.060 homophobic or, or whatever.

01:05:01.540 But they were saying stuff that kind of like the almost dog whistling, like you, you can't

01:05:06.620 do this because that's this, you know, and, and kind of just discouraging me from expressing

01:05:13.420 myself basically.

01:05:14.500 It's such a weird pattern of comfort that there's almost a comfort in people even doing

01:05:18.120 that.

01:05:18.780 Yeah.

01:05:18.980 It's like this old thing.

01:05:20.040 It's like, you know, I would always envision like, there's a, there's some black kids on

01:05:23.920 a white guy's lawn and the black guy comes out and yells the N word, but then he goes

01:05:27.620 inside and he's learning the moonwalk, you know, it's like, what's the analogy there?

01:05:31.960 I'm trying to, trying to put it together.

01:05:35.100 I'm trying to understand what you mean.

01:05:37.640 I think it's that somebody will just say something that they like has been like part of a pattern.

01:05:43.540 Okay.

01:05:44.220 But then they don't even realize they're going inside and now they're trying to learn like

01:05:47.940 a black guy's day.

01:05:48.940 They've been practicing.

01:05:50.200 So the white guy is saying the N word or the black guy is white guy or the white guy.

01:05:53.640 Oh, I see.

01:05:54.280 Sorry.

01:05:54.660 So they've, they're, their culture, they're racially kind of, um, living a double existence

01:05:59.680 as I say.

01:06:00.240 Yeah.

01:06:00.380 And you don't even realize it.

01:06:01.520 It's like, they're not, they're like, they have like, Hey, they're saying hateful things,

01:06:06.240 but ultimately they, they still.

01:06:08.160 But they're also learning part of this culture.

01:06:09.900 They're learning like a music or a dance or something of this culture at the same time.

01:06:14.020 Yeah.

01:06:14.840 They're confused basically.

01:06:16.360 Yeah.

01:06:16.720 Or just like, some things are just patterns.

01:06:19.040 They're not the best patterns.

01:06:20.180 And you know, obviously, but some of the even hateful things people say are just like,

01:06:23.440 they don't know what else to say.

01:06:24.700 They're ingrained.

01:06:25.780 Also, they can be so deeply ingrained in people as a kind of like, uh, form of expression that

01:06:31.520 they're not even aware of what the words, what they mean.

01:06:35.900 Yeah.

01:06:36.200 They, they, they lose.

01:06:37.520 There's a thing called semantic association where you, where in the moment you can say

01:06:42.420 a word so many times that it loses its meaning completely.

01:06:44.880 And you know, like cactus, if you said that like 400 times or even probably 10 times in

01:06:50.620 a row, you start, it just starts to be a word.

01:06:53.440 That has no power whatsoever or, or any connotation.

01:06:57.460 It just becomes like a shape of sound.

01:07:00.880 We hear that even with music, you hear a song so many times.

01:07:03.240 It's like, oh, I'm going to listen to this my whole road trip.

01:07:06.100 And then.

01:07:06.580 Yeah.

01:07:07.800 At the 30th time you're done, you know?

01:07:09.900 Yes.

01:07:10.300 Um, so is there another evolution you start to feel like for your music and not that you

01:07:15.080 need one or anything, but.

01:07:16.640 Yeah.

01:07:16.960 I think we always need one.

01:07:17.980 Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:07:19.540 I always want to.

01:07:20.400 But even by putting your voice in, right.

01:07:22.220 So at one point it was like, okay, I'm going to put my voice in like, that's something new

01:07:25.640 and different for me kind of, or, or put my voice out there to people attached to my

01:07:30.380 music.

01:07:30.880 Like, um, do you feel like there's just, I'm just trying to think like, what would something

01:07:37.020 else even look like, I guess like a band or.

01:07:39.780 Oh yeah.

01:07:40.600 Well, you know, I, I kind of have a band we play with live, but I, there is, um, there's

01:07:47.320 always a, a slight insecurity in me that like, I'm not shift, I'm not changing up enough the

01:07:54.840 neck, every phase that we go into, like whether it's a new album or, or something like that.

01:07:58.980 But I've tended to find that the, the three piece band that I play with is just the best

01:08:08.280 for, for me.

01:08:09.340 And it's always kind of been that way.

01:08:11.320 Uh, and, but singing is like, it's a form of expression on like anything I've ever had.

01:08:19.560 Yeah.

01:08:20.080 And I guess I just, I, I just love doing it and it really like, it feels great.

01:08:24.580 And it's, it's, it just always, it's always challenging.

01:08:29.920 And it's like, even just staying on the note, like I have this voice where you, I can kind

01:08:36.220 of easily fall off the note and it almost sounds like I'm about to fall off the note, but I,

01:08:40.720 but hopefully I don't.

01:08:41.860 Sometimes I just do.

01:08:43.340 Um, but I don't have the most pure, clear, clear voice, you know, someone like,

01:08:49.560 Whitney Houston, for example, is just like, you know, super defined notes.

01:08:57.300 A lot of mine are quite, um, precarious.

01:09:02.320 I think, um, yeah, it's a perfect example, kind of a view.

01:09:05.560 It's, I don't know, man.

01:09:06.840 It's really interesting to know you and hear your music.

01:09:10.120 Um, same with your comedy.

01:09:12.680 It's interesting to see.

01:09:14.100 It's kind of fascinating.

01:09:14.940 Cause it, one thing I always sort of, um, found fascinating was just how you've internalized

01:09:23.420 your childhood and, and like the way people, like all of your memories of, of all the stories

01:09:29.640 you have of like where you grew up are so vivid.

01:09:34.540 And I can't remember most of the people in my town.

01:09:40.280 I mean, I remember some of them, but I feel like we grew up in pretty different places

01:09:46.300 and, and a lot of the things that you remember and pick up on of the people that you grew up

01:09:53.940 around, maybe it's the way you're telling them, but a lot of fucked up shit happened near

01:10:03.160 you.

01:10:05.160 I think we grew up around there.

01:10:06.960 A lot of people perving out.

01:10:08.140 Well, I think when people don't have much, they play with their body, you know, or they're

01:10:11.900 like, you know, you get reduced to kind of real limbic type of behaviors, you know, sexual

01:10:16.960 or perved out or, you know, and especially you get out there in a rural areas where people

01:10:22.020 aren't as educated.

01:10:22.860 There's a lot more kind of, you know, I don't want to say incest, but people touching each

01:10:27.880 other a little early.

01:10:29.060 Yeah.

01:10:29.600 You know, and that sort of behavior.

01:10:31.020 And I, I grew up in, you know, the kind of the countryside, uh, or not, it's not the

01:10:36.340 countryside.

01:10:36.900 Did y'all have a horse or anything?

01:10:38.580 Didn't have a horse.

01:10:39.680 Okay.

01:10:40.200 Um, that's where I draw the line.

01:10:41.740 I did meet a couple, but I didn't ever ride one.

01:10:45.400 Um, and, um, I just, I just, I'd like, there were characters where, where I was from.

01:10:52.080 Definitely.

01:10:53.200 Um, but I think I don't, I guess I don't draw on them as inspiration.

01:10:57.840 Yeah.

01:10:58.360 Because they probably, I probably avoided most people, I think.

01:11:02.780 Ah.

01:11:03.340 Whereas I think you must've just been more like viscerally attached.

01:11:07.440 Yeah.

01:11:07.700 We were more loose out just seeing stuff, you know?

01:11:09.900 Yeah.

01:11:10.120 There was not much like supervision or like, and I didn't want to be at home.

01:11:14.960 My father was so old.

01:11:16.040 My mother was gone.

01:11:17.260 There was like a clean, there was like a, um, babysitter around.

01:11:20.680 So it was just so like, I don't know, it's just, just being out and about, you know?

01:11:25.820 And then your imagination becomes so big because you, something needs to have some value to you.

01:11:32.460 So your imagination creates like a lot, like, I think it pays attention to a lot of stuff.

01:11:37.560 Yeah.

01:11:38.220 And it, uh, you attached it.

01:11:41.300 Sorry.

01:11:42.220 It wants you to have a bigger world.

01:11:44.220 So your, maybe your imagination gets attached to something else inside of you and they kind

01:11:48.440 of grow synonymously maybe.

01:11:50.320 Yeah.

01:11:50.440 Because do you feel like when you go into rooms with people in like Hollywood or, or, or even

01:11:56.240 just any way you are, do you feel like your imagination is sort of overgrown in a way that

01:12:01.120 theirs hasn't?

01:12:02.120 Do you, do you sometimes feel like, uh, like you've still got the curiosity of, about people

01:12:10.120 and about like things that a lot of people seem to have, like you have quite a, um, quite

01:12:17.980 a, like zest for that kind of thing that like a lot of people don't seem to, don't seem

01:12:24.700 to have like an opposite, you know, you're, you're keen to like observe the, the thing

01:12:30.180 that a lot of people wouldn't have noticed, which, you know, is, I mean, that in itself

01:12:35.900 is like a, is like a, a love of life.

01:12:38.180 It's not, even though like, I know that you've gone through a lot and you've, and you've talked

01:12:42.740 about, you know, bouts of depression and bouts of kind of not being interested in stuff,

01:12:46.660 but it's like, even at your least interested, even at your least engaged with humanity and

01:12:52.120 everything, you still seem so curious.

01:12:55.000 Well, thanks man.

01:12:56.040 I think, um, well, some of it is, I think you have to, you start to develop a sense.

01:13:02.260 I need to know what is very important to this person that's in front of me right now, because

01:13:06.580 if I need them or if I need to let them know, I need communication from them or I need them

01:13:13.900 to see me, I need to be able to get to them immediately.

01:13:16.900 So maybe there's a part in you that it's like, oh, you can tell this about them, or

01:13:21.900 you can tell this, or you could, you know, see by the way that they turn their neck or

01:13:26.620 fix their hair or put something in their pocket that you can envision this bigger world behind

01:13:31.580 them that you can either make a way for it to be funny to them, or it can be really acute

01:13:37.300 to them and it can be very factual.

01:13:39.600 Maybe sometimes I think it's developed.

01:13:41.720 I think you just develop this sense in case I need someone, um, I need everything I can

01:13:48.140 get to show this person that I may, that I can attach to them.

01:13:52.440 Like a, like a, like a, um, like a detective.

01:13:56.140 Yeah, I think it is.

01:13:57.060 I think a part of you kind of become some type of a detective, you know?

01:13:59.760 Cause it's like, you're noticing stuff on people, you know, it's like when in detective

01:14:03.180 shows where they're like, yeah, well, you know, his, his right, but his right shoe had

01:14:07.100 a lace untied, which means that recently he was, well, it's like, he's the kind of person

01:14:12.400 who he's, he's not, no, he doesn't have OCD.

01:14:15.280 He's not, he's, you know, he's not paying attention.

01:14:17.720 He's, he's loose.

01:14:19.060 He can, he can't be trusted, but you know, it's like, they'll draw all these conclusions

01:14:22.340 from just that one aspect of someone's, uh, appearance or something.

01:14:27.020 But you would also do it on the other side.

01:14:28.920 You would know what could hurt that person.

01:14:30.860 Right.

01:14:31.320 You know?

01:14:31.800 Right.

01:14:32.120 And you could know.

01:14:32.920 Have you ever used that and then regretted it?

01:14:34.420 Oh yeah.

01:14:35.080 I think growing up, especially as a defense mechanism, you would use it around our house.

01:14:39.480 Like with communicating with my brothers and sisters, it was the only way we communicated

01:14:43.380 was, uh, very rudely, uh, making fun.

01:14:48.680 There was no like affection.

01:14:50.220 Nobody like taught us.

01:14:52.040 You got to be brothers and said there was no.

01:14:54.400 So you just find the thing that you thought was going to like cut them down, cut them down

01:14:58.240 and just, I just, just go for it.

01:15:00.120 Right.

01:15:00.300 When they walked in the door.

01:15:01.260 Amazing.

01:15:01.760 So it was every, I mean, it was just, I was surprised that you did.

01:15:04.420 I didn't, um, sort of comment on this ridiculous, uh, onesie that I'm wearing.

01:15:10.600 Well, we've only had one other person that's worn something like that.

01:15:13.040 Right.

01:15:13.560 Robbie Williams.

01:15:15.780 Yeah.

01:15:16.340 But he dressed like a train conductor.

01:15:18.140 Bring up Robbie Williams.

01:15:18.920 You look like damn sling blade.

01:15:21.260 You look unbelievable.

01:15:24.260 He look like.

01:15:25.800 I've got to see this.

01:15:26.800 Oh yeah.

01:15:27.580 Bring him up when he was on here.

01:15:28.780 If you can.

01:15:29.860 He was really on this podcast.

01:15:31.260 I'd love to see him.

01:15:31.880 There he is.

01:15:32.080 Yeah.

01:15:32.180 Oh my God.

01:15:33.140 I mean, he looks like.

01:15:34.340 We've basically dressed as a, except I, so he's wearing a, we're both wearing dungarees,

01:15:39.320 but I look like I've grown through mine.

01:15:42.480 Like just an extra two foot up.

01:15:45.720 Cause mine are lower.

01:15:47.900 Yeah.

01:15:48.460 But he came in.

01:15:49.360 I mean, he definitely looked like, Hey, you're late for the train.

01:15:51.840 You know, he definitely came in.

01:15:53.340 Like he's got conductor on it written on every, yeah, totally.

01:15:56.540 Yeah.

01:15:56.720 He had kind of a sling blade gets a job at Amtrak sort of vibe going on.

01:16:00.760 Amtrak with a, with an Apple watch.

01:16:02.760 Yeah.

01:16:03.040 Yeah.

01:16:03.600 Definitely not going to be late.

01:16:05.320 Yeah.

01:16:05.660 Never going to be late again.

01:16:06.380 Yeah.

01:16:08.940 But it was fabulous.

01:16:09.840 He looks great.

01:16:10.620 I haven't seen Robbie Williams in a long time.

01:16:12.460 He's, he looks great.

01:16:13.360 I think he's the only other British person.

01:16:15.280 Oh, and Michael Bisping.

01:16:16.940 Oh, wow.

01:16:17.540 So three, three really interesting, different British people that we've had on here.

01:16:22.580 Yeah.

01:16:23.420 Yeah.

01:16:24.060 Only three Brits.

01:16:25.240 I think so.

01:16:26.300 I'm trying to think of maybe a different one.

01:16:28.000 Is that a.

01:16:28.660 Max Moore was from Britain.

01:16:29.960 Oh, Max Moore.

01:16:31.080 He does the cryonic freezing where they freeze people.

01:16:35.860 Oh God.

01:16:36.420 Oh, is he the freezer or the freezee?

01:16:38.840 He is the freezer.

01:16:40.340 Okay.

01:16:40.960 Yeah.

01:16:41.160 He's the freezer.

01:16:41.980 He's never been.

01:16:42.980 Yeah.

01:16:43.200 I think he would, he himself is planning on getting frozen, I think, but it was just interesting

01:16:46.520 to learn about that.

01:16:46.800 He's never done it himself.

01:16:47.980 I would never go to someone who's never done it themselves.

01:16:50.160 There's only one way to do it.

01:16:50.900 You have to die.

01:16:52.660 Right.

01:16:53.080 It's that thing.

01:16:53.740 That's the thing.

01:16:54.120 You have to die and then you go in.

01:16:55.700 Wait.

01:16:55.940 So he freezes people who are dead.

01:16:58.340 Yeah.

01:16:59.460 Okay.

01:17:00.020 They catch them right when they're about to die.

01:17:01.740 That's why he's never done it.

01:17:02.600 Right.

01:17:02.840 I got it.

01:17:03.640 So yeah, there's only one entry point.

01:17:05.740 Right.

01:17:06.220 It seems, yeah, it seems niche.

01:17:08.060 Yeah.

01:17:08.280 Yeah.

01:17:10.500 I think that's a good way to say it.

01:17:12.600 Yeah.

01:17:13.680 So what was his, I'd love to know what his chat was like.

01:17:16.520 I mean, I could just go and watch the podcast.

01:17:18.320 What's his name?

01:17:19.160 His name is Max Moore.

01:17:20.680 So he also is named like a supervillain type of name, M-A-X-M-O-R-E.

01:17:25.220 So he really lives this, you know, and he looks, bring a picture of him up.

01:17:29.620 He looks like he's been damn frozen and thawed out 30 times.

01:17:32.760 He looks like they wanted him for dinner and then changed their mind.

01:17:36.680 But he looks like Bill Burr.

01:17:39.280 Like, I mean, he's just been in the frozen.

01:17:41.120 Yeah.

01:17:41.460 There he is.

01:17:41.860 Oh yeah.

01:17:42.280 He does look like Bill Burr.

01:17:43.960 Wow.

01:17:44.320 He looks like he really, uh.

01:17:46.640 It's sort of a Wim Hof and Bill Burr had a.

01:17:49.280 Heavy on the whim, I think.

01:17:51.460 Hmm.

01:17:52.240 This dude is, uh, but very interesting.

01:17:55.120 He's the, he's the, the post.

01:17:57.840 Um, he's the posthumous Wim Hof in a way, isn't he?

01:18:00.600 Just with the freezing.

01:18:01.800 Yeah.

01:18:02.400 They both deal in the same thing.

01:18:03.420 He keeps them all.

01:18:04.340 He just, you know, they have all the bodies in that sort of deal.

01:18:07.780 Real interesting.

01:18:08.700 He's for, if, if, if things with Wim Hof, Wim Hof go wrong.

01:18:12.500 He's your guy, I think.

01:18:13.940 And they freeze him in like this different type of, um, what was that stuff called, Zach?

01:18:18.160 Do you remember?

01:18:20.380 Uh, it's a certain type of gas.

01:18:22.060 I forget the name of it.

01:18:23.980 It's quite scary.

01:18:25.300 Oh yeah.

01:18:25.920 It's scary.

01:18:26.400 Uh, but his plan, his thought is this, that if people like already they can take an embryo,

01:18:31.680 right?

01:18:31.860 They can say if your girlfriend wanted to donate eggs, right?

01:18:34.900 And then they froze those eggs, which they do for a lot of women now.

01:18:37.980 Yeah.

01:18:38.440 So they're basically freezing life before.

01:18:41.920 So he's saying that they could freeze you at the end also.

01:18:46.160 And then later when they have the technology, if your DNA is still alive, people are hoping

01:18:51.160 that, you know, we can get revived like a mammoth.

01:18:53.960 Right.

01:18:54.120 And he's saying, why not?

01:18:54.940 He goes, at one point people thought climbing up a ladder was as high as you could get to

01:18:58.100 something.

01:18:58.440 And then now we, you know, we can travel through space.

01:19:02.200 Yeah.

01:19:02.360 So that's really, I mean, I imagine the ladder was probably invented after like, uh, some

01:19:08.920 of the space travel, not space travel, but maybe the hypothesis of just maybe the hot

01:19:13.680 air balloon.

01:19:14.860 Yeah.

01:19:15.280 I didn't think about that.

01:19:16.340 I don't really know which came first.

01:19:18.040 Dude.

01:19:18.240 Imagine when somebody showed up with that ladder, bro.

01:19:20.380 Damn.

01:19:21.460 I mean, one eyed man in the kingdom of the blind.

01:19:23.620 Oh, people imagine all the chicks he got to all those wrong.

01:19:28.440 Yeah.

01:19:29.980 I mean, it would feel, it'd feel like a celebrity.

01:19:32.940 I imagine it locally.

01:19:34.280 Yeah.

01:19:34.600 Hey, he's coming over.

01:19:35.640 He's bringing it.

01:19:36.500 Yeah.

01:19:37.800 People with all the things like on their shelves that they can't reach.

01:19:41.340 People just hiding stuff up way high.

01:19:43.300 Yeah.

01:19:43.520 Yeah.

01:19:43.660 Yeah.

01:19:43.780 Yeah.

01:19:43.980 See it.

01:19:45.160 Look at him go.

01:19:46.380 Just imagining how his life panned out.

01:19:49.400 If he, if he, um, yeah, you know, the inventor of the ladder, like, did he get royalties?

01:19:54.220 Did he get?

01:19:54.940 No, I'm sure.

01:19:56.120 Right.

01:19:56.280 The dark side of it.

01:19:57.280 Then watching people go get stuff and you're not, you're not making anything off it.

01:20:01.060 Yeah.

01:20:01.220 You're wandering around.

01:20:02.660 You know, you're cursing at people who are climbing up.

01:20:05.820 Could have been a bitter older man.

01:20:07.720 I imagine.

01:20:08.320 Oh, I'd watch that movie.

01:20:09.700 I'd watch the, I'd watch that.

01:20:10.980 There's a movie in it.

01:20:12.080 I think that would be a very bad movie.

01:20:14.500 It'd be a, yeah, a sad movie.

01:20:21.080 I think you and I can make a really good sad movie probably if we wanted to.

01:20:23.960 I think so.

01:20:24.580 I imagine.

01:20:25.020 Yeah.

01:20:25.240 Combine both of our early lives.

01:20:27.740 Yeah.

01:20:28.060 Into one movie.

01:20:29.260 So what, what about your early life?

01:20:30.880 Do you, was a lot of your pressure from just like acceptance or your peers?

01:20:35.900 Cause obviously if you were kind of shy and music was your scapegoat and you had these

01:20:40.800 skills that were kind of frowned upon, which certainly are in certain areas, you know?

01:20:46.800 It makes you wonder how much creativity has been really stifled by an environment, you

01:20:50.980 know?

01:20:51.520 I think create, I think, you know, sometimes I thought it was the singing, the fact that

01:20:54.900 you know, kids just didn't really, but it's also a bit like, I think it's a bit like being

01:21:00.020 a footballer, right?

01:21:01.420 You know, when a kid says, I want to be a professional, you know, soccer player when

01:21:05.820 I'm older.

01:21:06.180 In England, that's like, you know, NFL here, you know, it's this almost unattainable dream

01:21:12.600 that some people do genuinely break through and make it.

01:21:17.760 But it's, you know, if, if a kid says that's what they want to do, you go, well, people go

01:21:23.200 like, okay, but have a backup plan because probably not going to happen.

01:21:28.540 Yeah.

01:21:28.700 And music's a bit like that, where it's like, the odds are you're not going to be the, you're

01:21:36.300 not going to be a superstar.

01:21:37.760 Yeah.

01:21:38.020 And you're probably not even going to make it as high as you want to, even if you do become

01:21:42.740 extremely successful because it's never enough.

01:21:45.100 So ultimately convincing people to go into music for a living is, is actually slightly kind

01:21:57.100 of a dubious thing to suggest because it's, it's really hard and most people don't, you

01:22:04.700 know, make it.

01:22:07.280 Uh, but also there's, there's also loads of ways you can be involved in music that don't,

01:22:11.880 you know, um, don't have so much pressure on them.

01:22:14.960 And you can make a living, you can make a great living from music and not be famous and not

01:22:19.700 be in the band and not be in the, you know, you can be working music in so many different

01:22:24.400 ways.

01:22:25.520 Um, but they're not the ways that people focus on when they think of musician or whatever

01:22:30.900 they think of like the famous ones.

01:22:33.500 Um, right, right, right.

01:22:35.700 Like they're not some of the most like, uh, ways that are kind of, they're not the front

01:22:40.900 man.

01:22:41.820 Yeah.

01:22:42.260 You think of the front, front people, you know, I don't, it's just advertising.

01:22:45.640 Yeah, exactly.

01:22:46.360 Yeah.

01:22:47.080 Um, what other things do you think about with music?

01:22:49.640 Are there other worlds that you'd like to conquer?

01:22:51.260 Like you've had such a, you know, you've gotten to work with like Travis Scott and, uh, Beyonce.

01:22:56.460 You've won a Grammy, right?

01:22:57.980 For best rap performance.

01:23:00.180 Yeah.

01:23:01.020 Was that right?

01:23:02.260 Yeah.

01:23:02.680 I mean, it was weird.

01:23:04.560 I was actually on the way to the Grammys and they told me in, in the car that I'd won

01:23:07.960 one, uh, for best rap performance.

01:23:09.760 And I, so, so essentially it's on this, so on, so Kendrick Lamar, we were supposed to

01:23:20.120 work on, he asked me to work on the Black Panther stuff, the soundtrack.

01:23:26.040 And then also there was this other song he was doing, which I think ended up on the Black

01:23:31.520 Panther soundtrack as well as King's Dead.

01:23:32.900 And I sent him this, this thing.

01:23:37.280 It was going to be like maybe a verse.

01:23:38.480 I don't really know what it was, but I tried something on this song.

01:23:41.660 He wanted me to try and be, try and be on it.

01:23:44.080 Anyway, they ended up using like a very, very, very small clip of what I'd done.

01:23:49.100 It was like a couple of seconds.

01:23:50.640 Wow.

01:23:51.000 And putting a lot of effects on it.

01:23:53.140 So I, I wasn't particularly audible or it wasn't necessarily recognizably me.

01:23:58.760 Now, obviously I don't care like that.

01:24:01.160 It worked really well in the song.

01:24:02.720 Like they did a great job.

01:24:03.620 Um, and I wasn't in any way like cut up about that.

01:24:08.580 Like, uh, I just was like, nice to be included, sample me, cool, whatever you want to do.

01:24:13.380 But anyway, they ended up putting my name on the song as one of the features.

01:24:17.460 Now, usually a feature is something like someone does a verse or like that, you know, whatever.

01:24:23.240 So anyway, I'm this thing, uh, and I'm not really playing a feature role, but I'm, my name's on it.

01:24:33.220 So I win a Grammy that they win a Grammy for the song.

01:24:36.240 And because my name's on the actual song, rather than just like buried in the credits as a sample,

01:24:41.740 you get a Grammy.

01:24:42.280 I actually get a Grammy.

01:24:43.360 Wow.

01:24:43.760 So I've got, uh, and it says best rap performance, which insinuates that I rap, which, um, you can imagine I don't.

01:24:53.240 Dude, that's crazy.

01:24:54.100 Cause sometimes you would think, man, they put my name on here.

01:24:56.920 I'm not even really on here.

01:24:57.960 This kind of mess.

01:24:58.840 Some people might think it's kind of messed up.

01:25:00.260 They're kind of using me here, but then it's funny how sometimes things turn around and it's like, oh, here you go.

01:25:05.320 I mean, it's just funny.

01:25:06.260 It was just a whole, the whole situation was funny.

01:25:08.420 Like I didn't, you know, cause we ended up doing other songs.

01:25:10.980 So it was like, if, if that had been all they'd used, then I, maybe I could have felt a bit sad about it.

01:25:17.180 But, you know, you've also got to think like the man's a legend.

01:25:21.800 The situation is legendary.

01:25:23.520 Like the song went, was a hit.

01:25:25.280 It went multi-platinum.

01:25:26.160 Like I was just like, cool.

01:25:28.960 Like amazing.

01:25:30.480 I'm happy to be involved at all.

01:25:32.400 But the, uh, yeah, just the Grammy is funny.

01:25:35.100 I mean, it's currently hidden behind a big modular synth, um, in my studio, poking out the back.

01:25:44.720 When you have, is your studio now fancier than your studio when you first started?

01:25:48.380 A little bit, but it's still pretty much the same principle.

01:25:52.280 Just the keyboard, computer, mic, uh, it's just like probably higher end versions of those things, but quite simple, quite small.

01:26:02.980 Cause sometimes I think like, is it hard to get back to like the, cause sometimes we look to our early stuff and like, those are the moments where I really wish I could just still feel like myself.

01:26:11.720 You know, I even will have old podcast clips come up and I'm like, oh man, that's when I was just really felt like in the pocket of who I was as a person before I started to take any input from people's perspectives of me or before stuff got out there.

01:26:26.440 And anybody knew who I was when, who I was, what was a secret to me.

01:26:30.220 Yeah.

01:26:30.560 And I was my, it was like, it was almost like I had some value for myself that once everybody knows about it, it's almost like, you don't not still have it, but it's not yours.

01:26:41.560 It's not yours as much anymore.

01:26:42.520 No.

01:26:42.780 And you've, and you've kind of shown your, you've shown your cards, shown your cards, basically.

01:26:47.520 Yeah.

01:26:47.860 There's something, there's so, there's something so special about being a surprise.

01:26:51.000 Yes, definitely.

01:26:51.860 And, and the underdog and, and like all these things.

01:26:54.220 And like, there was a time I imagine where it felt like you were people just kind of discovering your brain and how it works and kind of going, whoa, never heard anyone say anything like this or do anything like this.

01:27:06.880 But, you know, that's a cool moment, but I think that your career especially has kind of been littered with really great moments that couldn't have happened during that phase.

01:27:20.660 And like now you have this incredible fan base of people who love the way your brain works and know the way your brain works and look for, and look for confirmation about how great you are.

01:27:35.320 And, and they, they're like, they're watching because they can count on you to make them feel that thing that you make them feel.

01:27:45.900 And, and then also not just laugh, but also be understood and like ask questions that they are too afraid to ask.

01:27:51.320 And, you know, you, you get to meet all these people that they don't get to meet and they can see it through your lens.

01:27:59.040 And every new person you meet brings something new out in you.

01:28:02.400 So there's never, um, there's never been a point at which you were more capable of doing that than right now.

01:28:10.100 Hmm. Um, it feels the other way though. Right. Talking about in what way?

01:28:15.360 Like, do you ever feel like I want, Oh God, I wish I could go back to whatever.

01:28:19.060 Yeah. But it's, it's, um, but you can't get your brain back there.

01:28:22.440 Like your brain, like your reality grows and you can't go back, you know?

01:28:28.500 Yeah. And I think, I think that's a good thing because what you probably, what we, you know, I have a similar thing.

01:28:38.060 You know, I look back at some of my old music and I think like, Oh, like I was thinking so much simpler back then.

01:28:44.440 Or I, I really knew how to do this or like, I didn't overcomplicate or, you know, there were, Oh yeah.

01:28:51.100 Like I really had a fire in my belly for this type of thing. Right. And that's cool.

01:28:57.100 But that moment really only lasted for however long it lasted.

01:29:00.120 And then after that I had to, and I was finding a fire for other things.

01:29:04.040 And I think obviously we can't revisit moments in time, but what we can do is make sure that our head is clear and that we're on our path.

01:29:18.660 Cause I think the feeling that we miss is the feeling of being on our path.

01:29:23.200 Ah, it's not necessarily the thing we were doing at the time, what we were on our path, that we were on our path.

01:29:29.820 Yeah.

01:29:30.320 It's, I am doing what I'm here to do.

01:29:36.620 I'm exactly where I should be in the universe.

01:29:40.040 And I am being so, I mean, being integral.

01:29:44.600 I'm not letting other people's opinions get to me.

01:29:46.940 I'm pursuing what it is.

01:29:50.340 I love I'm being authentic and I'm enjoying every moment.

01:29:59.180 And I'm, and I'm being present when you feel those things, the content you put out is going to be great.

01:30:10.460 And it will always be a moment people look back on because ultimately the thing that brought you to where you are now, sorry, into, even into, you know, public consciousness.

01:30:24.180 Was the fact that you were on that path and your, your, every essence, your actual essence is why you're there.

01:30:32.220 Right.

01:30:32.740 It's every, it's the way you look at the world.

01:30:34.540 It's all the things that led to this.

01:30:36.140 It's your childhood.

01:30:36.840 It's the thing, the ways that you learn to, um, kind of put those experiences into words or the way you learn to, you know, find those.

01:30:47.620 So it's not like getting back to a certain doc.

01:30:50.020 It's just like being still just be in the stream kind of, or getting, it's like that's in flow state, right?

01:30:59.620 It's finding flow state.

01:31:01.100 Oh, cause I always, I always mess up and think it's, oh, I got to get back to this doc.

01:31:06.180 But it's like, no, that doc was just part of something you passed by as you were in a comfortable, healthy self.

01:31:13.740 That was part of the scene here.

01:31:15.000 Right.

01:31:15.920 I believe.

01:31:16.820 I mean, that's what I believe anyway.

01:31:18.020 This is, I mean, this is, uh.

01:31:19.560 I'm always looking out the window thinking, oh, I got to get back to where the car passed.

01:31:22.980 But really, I just have to get back into this comfortably in the driver's seat.

01:31:27.220 Wow.

01:31:27.780 I think so.

01:31:28.360 I think so.

01:31:30.500 Yeah.

01:31:30.940 And it's such a fight to try and think, how do I get back there?

01:31:34.880 You know, and then you're always working from a loss because it's impossible.

01:31:38.900 It's the, it's the kind of, it's the Buddhist concept of, uh, you know, desire is suffering.

01:31:43.780 It's like, if you, if you want what you don't currently embody, then you are starting from

01:31:53.160 a point of deficit.

01:31:55.220 You don't have the thing.

01:31:56.940 So therefore, you know, wanting something equals unhappiness, but you're, but I mean, that's,

01:32:05.900 I think.

01:32:06.480 No, it's good.

01:32:07.280 It's cool.

01:32:08.120 I have to pee really bad.

01:32:09.000 Do you?

01:32:09.380 I really do.

01:32:10.160 All right.

01:32:10.300 Let's pee.

01:32:10.620 And then we'll come back and maybe talk about some news.

01:32:12.260 Thanks for releasing me.

01:32:13.880 Would you ever, uh, and you got, it gets much colder in Britain, huh?

01:32:18.480 Much colder.

01:32:19.220 Yeah.

01:32:19.460 Wow.

01:32:20.040 Well, actually I say that, I mean, America's a big place and it gets much colder in Minnesota

01:32:25.640 than it does anywhere in England.

01:32:27.240 Oh, do you ever feel like you've sold out your country by moving out of it?

01:32:33.240 Interesting.

01:32:34.640 And maybe that's not the best term to use.

01:32:36.260 That's just a general term.

01:32:37.300 No, I mean, it's definitely like, you know, as an English person, it's definitely like a

01:32:41.780 concern that you in some way have insulted your, you know, your own by moving out.

01:32:47.880 But no, I never felt like I lived anywhere, to be honest.

01:32:53.320 I do feel English.

01:32:54.300 I mean, all my cultural reference points are English and all my comedy, uh, comedy references

01:33:02.240 and musical, any botanist, any botanist would find roots of you there.

01:33:06.220 You'd be busted there.

01:33:08.140 Exactly.

01:33:08.580 But that's interesting to say you never felt like you lived anywhere.

01:33:11.460 The musical roots were, a lot of it was American and, and a lot of like other like Japanese

01:33:15.340 and, uh, like European, uh, music and, you know, just, yeah, those are different cultural

01:33:22.720 influences that, uh, were not English.

01:33:24.840 And, and also I think on a spiritual level, I just didn't really resonate with nationality

01:33:30.240 particularly.

01:33:30.840 I didn't really have a national pride particularly, or, you know, being English, being, being

01:33:36.420 English is, is complex, isn't it?

01:33:38.020 And it's, you know, it comes with a history that's not necessarily, um, you know, some

01:33:43.160 of it's great and some of it's quite shameful and some of it, you know, I don't understand

01:33:48.060 why I would really attach myself to the positive or the negative of my country's history when

01:33:55.120 I wasn't part of it.

01:33:56.620 Yeah.

01:33:57.020 It's interesting, you know, with history, it's interesting because it's like people, it's easy

01:33:59.740 to look back on history and be like, oh, this is, you know, this wasn't good, you know,

01:34:03.540 from present perspectives and stuff like that.

01:34:06.180 And, and, you know, I'm sure at the time, a lot of British people were like, we're taking

01:34:11.520 over the world, you know, it was like a different, like there was a, probably a pride that would

01:34:15.640 seem foolish now if somebody had it, you know, like it would seem, you know, it's, it's

01:34:20.200 just interesting how time gives shape to things.

01:34:23.400 Well, cause all of our sort of, uh, reach of power is kind of just like slowly.

01:34:27.480 And now we're just this little Island, uh, that has, you know, a lot of cultural power

01:34:35.040 and I guess some financial power, but I, we're, we're definitely, um, maybe got a tail between

01:34:41.300 our legs a little bit, uh, might, might account for some of the self-deprecation that happens.

01:34:46.340 Yeah.

01:34:46.980 I think maybe a historical tail between your legs.

01:34:49.260 Maybe.

01:34:49.480 I'm curious to see like, how does Britain kind of like, how do they feel okay to show

01:34:54.900 their, still show who they are or find who they are?

01:34:58.820 I think with a little bit of difficulty, actually, I think, I think like when you have a national

01:35:03.020 kind of sense of like something, you know, when we're not like, we've not always been part

01:35:07.940 of, you know, the, you know, the British empire, like the colonialism, we're, we're, you know,

01:35:14.220 I think finding pride has to come from other, obviously other sources, unless you genuinely

01:35:20.260 are proud of that.

01:35:21.100 In which case, I don't know how I can help you, but, but that this, this side of being English,

01:35:28.480 like the comedy, the, the kind of, um, the music, the culture, the cultural output of

01:35:36.700 England is really amazing.

01:35:38.980 I mean, I, I look back at, you know, a lot of my biggest influences have also been, uh,

01:35:44.800 English bands.

01:35:45.920 Um, it's funny.

01:35:47.360 I mean, I, I, I didn't actually really, wasn't really, um, like a fan of Oasis at the time,

01:35:53.380 but I went to, I'm a big Beatles fan.

01:35:55.980 Um, lots of, lots of bands kind of eluded me until I was a bit older.

01:36:00.240 Cause I mostly listened to piano based music, uh, and like Mozart.

01:36:06.360 Yeah.

01:36:06.800 Whether it was classical or I listened to, um, a lot of like, like soul classical, um, Japanese

01:36:18.740 kind of ambient type.

01:36:20.540 Like Kabuki or something.

01:36:22.000 Is that like, uh, I don't know what that is, but, um, I don't either.

01:36:25.980 So, but like, yeah, but, but no, I mean, it could be a genre though.

01:36:31.140 I, I, something I don't know about, but, uh, yeah.

01:36:35.780 I mean, um, Ryuchi Sakamoto is a good, good, uh, example.

01:36:40.980 You should listen to him.

01:36:41.720 I think you'd like him a lot.

01:36:42.720 Very calming.

01:36:43.920 Oh, really?

01:36:44.480 Beautiful.

01:36:45.000 Yeah.

01:36:45.060 I could use that.

01:36:46.400 Ryuchi Sakamoto.

01:36:47.560 Yeah.

01:36:47.700 Ryuchi Sakamoto.

01:36:48.360 Can you bring him up?

01:36:49.100 Let's see an image of him.

01:36:50.620 I want to see a JPEG of this fella.

01:36:53.700 Ryuchi?

01:36:54.600 Ryuchi.

01:36:55.360 Ryuchi.

01:36:56.080 Oh, why?

01:36:56.460 I love Japanese people, man.

01:36:59.060 I went to Japan one time and we took a bunch of ice creams with us to the park and we gave

01:37:05.660 him the kids and took pictures of meeting them.

01:37:07.620 Oh, here he is.

01:37:09.120 I mean, beautiful, man.

01:37:10.460 Oh God, he is.

01:37:11.520 I look like my mother a little in the face, not in the hair.

01:37:15.740 Actually, if her, if his hair was a lot longer.

01:37:18.200 Yeah.

01:37:18.440 Right.

01:37:18.640 Right.

01:37:18.720 Oh, yes.

01:37:22.420 He looks like a composer, doesn't he?

01:37:24.540 I mean, just, just a legend.

01:37:28.360 I'd love to be Japanese.

01:37:29.700 I think it feels like everything's just so damn organized inside of you.

01:37:33.220 You know?

01:37:33.900 I feel like you swallow water and it immediately is ready to be urine.

01:37:36.760 It's immediately, efficiently processed.

01:37:39.040 Oh, there's no doubt.

01:37:40.440 There's not all this milling around, you know?

01:37:42.760 Right.

01:37:43.100 Oh, I'm going through the kidneys.

01:37:44.720 Get out of here with that BS.

01:37:46.720 Straight through.

01:37:47.400 It's just wreck.

01:37:48.480 Bullet train.

01:37:49.300 Yes.

01:37:49.880 That's it.

01:37:50.300 Yes.

01:37:50.480 It seems just like, here we go.

01:37:52.900 I mean.

01:37:53.380 You fit into a shirt size.

01:37:54.560 I feel like if you're Japanese, you fit in.

01:37:56.980 There is no, like, you're in the middle.

01:38:00.320 Like, here, this looks bad on me.

01:38:01.600 You know, I feel like you are.

01:38:03.120 There's a definite, there's a, there's a definable, like when you go to Tokyo, for example, there's

01:38:07.440 a definable style identity.

01:38:11.680 Yeah.

01:38:12.600 And I've found that some of the most stylish people I've ever met have been Japanese.

01:38:18.480 And some of the most stylish kind of, like, ideas in clothing have been, come from, I

01:38:23.460 mean, this is actually a different, I mean, I'm not saying that this is, I'm not saying

01:38:26.860 I'm sorry.

01:38:27.300 I think this is, like, one of the, well, it is, and it is by, it's by Yamamoto, Yoji Yamamoto.

01:38:39.340 But I wear a lot of Japanese clothes because I just think they, I mean, Yamamoto and Issey

01:38:48.080 Miyake are, like, my favorite designers.

01:38:50.580 Wow.

01:38:51.620 Yeah.

01:38:52.360 And, you know, going back to when I was a kid, yeah, lots of, lots of Japanese music.

01:38:57.320 And, and I think I was also fascinated by, like, like Western and Japanese crossovers.

01:39:04.760 Um, and, um, just like the, the intersection between those sounds.

01:39:14.720 And one thing you find is that every, every culture has its kind of own chord, uh, kind

01:39:22.840 of, or tonality.

01:39:24.340 What's the word sort of like world of notes that, that sound good together in that, you

01:39:29.600 know, style.

01:39:30.400 So for example, uh, in French music, right.

01:39:36.000 So like French, uh, early classical or whatever, it's like, there's a, there's a, there's a world

01:39:43.820 of tone that kind of sounds French.

01:39:50.480 If you know what you're listening to for.

01:39:52.040 Um, and when you go to the, when you go to the Eurostar, it's funny, there's, there's

01:39:59.660 a sound that plays.

01:40:00.620 It's like, whatever.

01:40:03.180 It's like a, it's like a thing.

01:40:05.180 And it's the most French notes.

01:40:09.020 Oh, interesting.

01:40:09.900 That have ever been written.

01:40:10.740 Yeah.

01:40:11.480 That's funny.

01:40:12.100 If you know a lot about music, you're probably able to hear a lot of different, like little

01:40:15.320 just things in the world and know, like trace them back.

01:40:17.900 It's almost like Latin.

01:40:19.020 Like if you know sounds, it's almost like you learn Latin.

01:40:22.040 That's interesting.

01:40:22.560 Everything's rooted in something.

01:40:23.740 Yeah.

01:40:24.020 Yeah.

01:40:24.220 Well, you know, when you go to Japan, there's a lot of, um, sounds in like train stations

01:40:28.720 and shit that they have.

01:40:30.400 And you just go, wow, this is, I mean, nothing like anything that I'm, I'm used to.

01:40:35.400 And it's kind of amazing.

01:40:36.940 Um, do you think, um, do you notice any difference between the audiences, like in different places,

01:40:43.360 like in some of the behavior of them and stuff like that?

01:40:45.260 Japan's a really interesting place to play because, uh, that a lot of the audiences are, they're

01:40:51.540 like super respectful, at least for the shows that we've put on, they'll be completely silent

01:40:59.460 during the music and then erupt in like the loudest possible applause.

01:41:04.200 And then as soon as they sense that you're ready to start the next song, complete silence

01:41:08.960 again, like penny drop.

01:41:10.660 Wow.

01:41:11.000 That's crazy.

01:41:11.880 Does it feel crazy?

01:41:13.260 It feels, or does it feel like right?

01:41:16.000 You know what?

01:41:16.780 It's just different.

01:41:17.600 It's like, it feels right there, but it's so, I can understand the logic behind it.

01:41:26.700 And there's a such respect that comes with that.

01:41:29.240 It's like, they really, really respect the art and what you're doing.

01:41:34.820 And also we were there, you know, we're kind of, we don't go there very often.

01:41:38.720 So, and you're not, you know, if you go too often, I think they probably get bored of you

01:41:43.160 and you start to seem domestic almost, but they respond, especially like that.

01:41:48.420 I think to people who are from out of town who come in and just kind of, um, more of a

01:41:54.440 rarity.

01:41:55.120 It's like, they just really want to be present for the, I don't want to miss it.

01:41:59.120 Yeah.

01:41:59.800 You want to be in the moment.

01:42:00.940 Yeah.

01:42:02.060 Maybe the value of the moment a bit, maybe there's some more of a value for the moment.

01:42:06.940 They have so much history.

01:42:08.920 Well, I wonder if it's also, we're over in America, we'll pour beer on the moment.

01:42:14.720 People over here, Hey dude, quit fucking the moment.

01:42:17.400 It's like, we're just people over here to, you know, just being, yeah.

01:42:23.060 Just like the moments, uh, it's like there's millions of moments, right?

01:42:28.320 There's so many moments that is, is kind of expansive.

01:42:31.600 And we've kind of had that in America.

01:42:32.800 We were like, we've got unlimited moments, you know?

01:42:34.840 Exactly.

01:42:35.180 But now I think we're starting, I think things are starting to change a little bit and it's

01:42:38.400 like, man, we need to value this moment.

01:42:40.540 I think the economy of moments basically, it's like, we are now in a moment where we don't

01:42:47.460 have that many like live interactive experiences.

01:42:50.100 So I would think that people are starting to go when they go to comedy shows or whatever,

01:42:55.500 they're probably paying a little bit more, you know, they're like, feel a bit more grateful

01:42:59.460 to be there, feel a bit more grateful to like have access to someone in real life after

01:43:04.580 just spending a pandemic, not being able to see anyone, not being able to go out apart

01:43:09.740 from in, uh, Tennessee, obviously.

01:43:12.340 Uh, but like the fact that someone is stood in front of you and they've spent their whole

01:43:17.460 life perfecting this art form.

01:43:18.980 And then you go there and then you just talk all over it.

01:43:21.800 I mean, the idea of doing that after the pandemic seemed, seemed more insane than it did before

01:43:27.380 because it would seem ungrateful.

01:43:31.020 Like, especially with music.

01:43:32.040 I mean, you guys, the people are more likely to be able to party and stuff during your shows

01:43:35.540 and have fun, you know, with comedy, you're really, people have to kind of sit and listen

01:43:39.180 for the most part.

01:43:39.960 Yeah.

01:43:40.300 Although a lot of people shush other people in my shows.

01:43:42.480 Oh, they do?

01:43:43.060 Which annoys me.

01:43:44.060 Oh, so what part of it?

01:43:45.000 I actually hate it.

01:43:46.260 Like, tell me what happens.

01:43:47.260 What do you mean they shush?

01:43:47.800 Well, I'll be playing something and, and I'm in the middle of a song and someone just goes

01:43:52.100 like, you know, they'll say something crowd-like, you know, like, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:44:00.120 Well, I love you.

01:44:01.200 Yeah.

01:44:01.520 And I'm like, in my brain, I'm like, I love you too, but I can't, can't say anything

01:44:05.080 because I'm doing my thing.

01:44:08.360 And someone else just goes, and just, and you're like, what it says, the thing is, I

01:44:17.040 always feel like responsible for what they've just done because I feel like maybe something

01:44:22.500 I put across, maybe it's just an insecurity, but I feel like something I put across has made

01:44:27.180 them feel like I wouldn't like it.

01:44:30.640 Oh, that's interesting.

01:44:32.020 You know, I wouldn't like it if someone like expresses how excited they are or whatever.

01:44:36.020 Oh, I feel like, oh yeah.

01:44:37.440 I don't want you to think that they're a warden for me.

01:44:39.420 I feel like some kind of like, yeah, like real, like stick up my ass fucking dude.

01:44:43.860 I used to feel that way about girl, like girls I would date and stuff.

01:44:47.120 I didn't want any girl to be like a reflection of me.

01:44:50.900 So it'd be like, if they made a mistake or like, I used to date this one girl who had

01:44:55.800 no like beautiful, really sweet girl.

01:44:58.240 She had no sense of like spatial awareness.

01:45:00.780 She would just be like, you know, talking to you and like, she'd bump into 65 people

01:45:05.420 somehow, like just while she was talking.

01:45:07.080 She's a dodgum.

01:45:08.080 She's a dodgum.

01:45:09.260 We call them dodgums.

01:45:10.280 Yeah.

01:45:10.460 And it's one of those, you know, like the, uh, the cars that bump into each other in

01:45:14.480 the fairground.

01:45:15.580 Yeah.

01:45:15.860 Yeah.

01:45:16.280 Yeah.

01:45:16.500 She was just like, gee, like, oh my God, don't you know somebody's right behind you?

01:45:20.520 She would always turn and knock over a damn glass or a top hat off of somebody, you know?

01:45:25.380 Yeah.

01:45:25.600 And it would just like, it drove me.

01:45:28.700 What would you do in that?

01:45:30.160 It just, cause I didn't want her to be a reflection of who I, it would be like, I didn't want anybody

01:45:36.520 thinking like, oh man, it's such a narcissistic thing really.

01:45:41.260 He, he endorses, he's like.

01:45:43.460 Right.

01:45:43.980 Cool with this.

01:45:44.820 Right.

01:45:45.220 Which makes him also as, as kind of unwieldy and, uh, fucking, you know.

01:45:53.060 Uncool or whatever.

01:45:53.980 Yeah.

01:45:54.140 Not cool.

01:45:54.620 In some way, ultimately it comes back to, I'm not accepted or like, but you know, the,

01:46:00.300 I, and I thought I did exactly the same thing, but with, with, uh, with like social interactions

01:46:06.020 and like, if somebody said the wrong thing, I'd prickle up and like feel really tense and

01:46:10.980 like want to, and I'll probably, it'll come out with a little comment towards them at some

01:46:14.980 point, you know, later or even during the conversation and I just couldn't hide it.

01:46:19.680 I was so uncomfortable with somebody else fucking up because ultimately like the

01:46:24.600 school I went to was just like, people were so hard on each other.

01:46:28.800 If some, if someone fucked up.

01:46:30.300 Oh, right.

01:46:31.300 So you just develop this thing of like, no one must say anything wrong.

01:46:35.360 No one can come into the situation with an energy that doesn't match everyone else.

01:46:39.500 No one can.

01:46:40.360 And it's like, it's such a like, you know, uh, restrictive place to live that.

01:46:47.740 And I just would emanate that.

01:46:50.760 Is that a very British thing you think, or is it just, it is?

01:46:54.020 Yeah, for sure.

01:46:55.180 Yeah.

01:46:55.460 But I also just, I think it's just the way I grew up.

01:46:57.720 The school I went to was like that.

01:46:59.220 It was a very, the school I went to was like quite, it was, it was a school where you had

01:47:03.500 to take a test to get in, but it was free.

01:47:06.040 So, so it wasn't like a private school, but it was for kids who.

01:47:10.000 Excelled in some stuff.

01:47:10.860 Yeah, it was for kids who essentially came from all manners of backgrounds, but had a

01:47:16.960 certain level of, of reading comprehension or whatever it was.

01:47:20.680 It was like, they tested you on multiple different things.

01:47:24.060 And so it was a good school to be at because it had kind of like a culturally, like there

01:47:29.320 was a lot of different cultures, but it was very intellectually, it was all about intellectual

01:47:34.320 sparring and, and like when kids are like, in some ways I'd have preferred to have been

01:47:40.920 beaten up than psychologically bullied, you know, because at least then I could have had

01:47:46.020 a chance to like hit someone and get my anger out.

01:47:49.180 I don't know.

01:47:49.800 Maybe I'm not really sure what's worse, but when kids are like super manipulative and

01:47:54.620 like a bit able to like find your button and like fully fucking fuck the button and

01:48:01.280 then just, and just keep fucking it until you're just like not able to defend yourself.

01:48:06.360 You know, it's like that, that is a, like a different stuff.

01:48:12.020 And I think it puts you in this like psychological like defense for the rest of your life.

01:48:18.020 Oh yeah.

01:48:18.740 Unless you fix it.

01:48:19.700 I mean, I just took fucking ages to like get rid of that thing of like, if someone says

01:48:24.780 something or if I say the worst, honestly, the worst case scenario would be I say something

01:48:29.620 and then in my mind, like everyone just like turns around and just like, what, what the

01:48:38.860 fuck did you just say?

01:48:40.500 You know, everything stops.

01:48:41.620 Can you imagine it's like record and like-

01:48:44.320 I want to stop the music.

01:48:45.500 Yeah.

01:48:46.280 Right.

01:48:47.060 And then, oh, and it's awkward.

01:48:50.260 That was like my worst nightmare, basically.

01:48:52.760 Which is funny, it's a pretty tame worst nightmare to have, but it's what happens in that environment.

01:49:00.900 It's a psychological thriller.

01:49:02.640 Yeah.

01:49:03.300 Which you just shared, you know.

01:49:04.420 Yes.

01:49:04.780 It's a psychological thriller.

01:49:05.600 It's just not a, yeah.

01:49:06.840 Yeah.

01:49:07.380 I think there's definitely like, I, uh.

01:49:11.000 Speaking of psychological thrillers, I got a clip.

01:49:13.440 What you got, man?

01:49:14.700 A song broke out at a psych ward.

01:49:17.860 Oh my God.

01:49:19.100 They all broke out singing in songs at three hours.

01:49:21.020 This is it now.

01:49:21.820 Insurance barely probably didn't even cover this.

01:49:23.700 I want it that way.

01:49:36.580 Tell me why.

01:49:37.800 Ain't nothing but a heartache.

01:49:41.240 Tell me why.

01:49:42.720 Ain't nothing but a mistake.

01:49:46.280 Tell me why.

01:49:47.280 I don't even want to hear you say.

01:49:52.480 They got my vote.

01:49:57.320 What party are they running with?

01:49:58.980 This is like.

01:50:00.100 This is like living in my house.

01:50:01.200 I mean, I live with three people.

01:50:03.160 So this is basically our house.

01:50:04.820 Oh, wow.

01:50:05.320 Really?

01:50:05.740 Yeah.

01:50:06.120 From all different rooms.

01:50:07.680 Oh, you do?

01:50:08.460 Yeah.

01:50:08.720 Well, I mean, yeah.

01:50:09.320 I live with two of my best friends and Jameena.

01:50:12.460 Yeah.

01:50:12.680 Um, and we've just, yeah, it's a very, it's kind of a modern, modern thing.

01:50:18.960 I wonder, it's, it's interesting how stuff like, like, I wonder if we're getting to this

01:50:23.720 let place in the world where it's like, um, I don't know what I'm trying to say.

01:50:29.620 It's like, we, like, everything feels very vigilante now.

01:50:34.680 It's like the person who's going to, like, it's like the world feels kind of like the

01:50:39.960 wild west.

01:50:40.680 You mean like individualistic, like people are just kind of, just doing, they've kind

01:50:45.540 of gone, fuck it.

01:50:46.420 I've given up on society.

01:50:47.560 I'm just going to do my, do it my own way.

01:50:49.900 This is the fabric of American society.

01:50:52.340 I feel like quickly unraveled.

01:50:54.140 Like Betsy Ross is like the stitching somehow over the past five years has come out.

01:50:59.400 Right.

01:50:59.600 And I don't know if a lot of people are buying into the, this American ideal anymore.

01:51:04.180 Interesting.

01:51:04.680 I don't know if they're not.

01:51:05.820 I just don't know.

01:51:07.020 This is also like in Los Angeles right now.

01:51:09.700 You don't get a really clear idea.

01:51:11.140 I mean, um, Los Angeles is a very, very unclear picture of, of, uh, or at least Hollywood.

01:51:18.480 Yeah.

01:51:18.880 Hollywood.

01:51:19.220 It's an extremely unclear picture of like people's interaction in general, because if

01:51:24.740 so much of it is incentivized by success or power or fame, uh, or in some way, somebody's

01:51:34.660 like desire or drive to, to like, to achieve something, then obviously things just, they're

01:51:44.380 not, they're not as they, they're not as pure as just, they're not pure basically.

01:51:48.880 Whereas I think most places are not like that.

01:51:51.060 I mean, and also, you know, that is just speaking for an industry rather than like Los Angeles

01:51:58.540 as a whole, because Los Angeles as a whole is multifaceted.

01:52:01.980 Yeah.

01:52:02.440 It's cultural.

01:52:02.960 I forget that a lot too.

01:52:04.100 A lot of times I'll say Los Angeles instead of really, I just mean Hollywood.

01:52:06.620 Um, are there, are, is there like other genres and stuff that you see where you would see

01:52:12.800 yourself going into music?

01:52:14.040 Is there anything that feels off limits?

01:52:15.620 Do you feel like you're kind of, have your horizons of even possibility brought broadened

01:52:20.940 over time or over the years or anything?

01:52:22.860 Or do you?

01:52:23.600 Uh, yeah, I, I mean, I started doing, I'm doing a thing like a film, bit of film music

01:52:29.800 at the moment.

01:52:30.920 So scoring a film?

01:52:32.320 Yeah.

01:52:32.660 Scoring a kind of visual thing.

01:52:35.340 Um, I, I, I call it a film, but it's not a kind of, um, movie in the way that like,

01:52:40.260 uh, it's not a, um, you know, the master or something or like a fucking narrative driven

01:52:48.500 movie is a, it's a kind of a more of a visual thing.

01:52:51.280 Um, but I'm really excited about it and I hope that it leads to more of that.

01:52:58.200 And I want to do narrative movies as like proper, you know, that kind of thing.

01:53:02.560 Um, weird that my music is seen as so atmospheric, but that I've not really ever been involved in

01:53:11.500 kind of scoring and stuff, but I've wanted to for a while.

01:53:15.420 So, and, um, yeah, I feel like, yeah, your music does feel like that.

01:53:21.120 I feel like I'm hitchhiking through my own feelings kind of sometimes a little bit.

01:53:24.280 Yeah.

01:53:24.860 Yeah.

01:53:25.260 Or I'm hitchhiking through your feelings.

01:53:26.820 Yes.

01:53:27.500 I feel like somebody is kind of hitchhiking through my feelings.

01:53:29.880 Hmm.

01:53:30.360 Um, and you're picking them up sometimes or not.

01:53:36.120 Sometimes I'm just watching them.

01:53:37.560 Just being like, I don't know.

01:53:39.100 I'll have to listen more.

01:53:39.920 I think it just kind of depends on whatever feeling I'm in at that moment.

01:53:42.740 What are the feelings that you kind of, like when you listen to music, like what, when,

01:53:48.440 when do you listen to music?

01:53:49.840 I listen to music for one, when I need a pick me up, I'll listen to certain songs.

01:53:53.240 Yeah.

01:53:53.520 There's a couple of songs I'll listen to.

01:53:55.760 Uh, I think when I want to feel something, I'll listen to some other stuff.

01:53:59.460 Hmm.

01:54:00.060 You know,

01:54:00.500 I listen to comedy when I need a pick me up, I think.

01:54:02.260 Yeah.

01:54:02.600 Yeah.

01:54:03.620 Cause yeah.

01:54:04.200 Cause music is, I guess the thing, the thing is with our jobs is that they, they become,

01:54:10.980 they become jobs.

01:54:13.020 Oh, totally.

01:54:13.860 People are like, what are your hobbies?

01:54:14.880 I'm like, I don't know.

01:54:15.460 My hobby, my hobbies became my job.

01:54:17.440 Right.

01:54:17.840 And now, and now it's neither.

01:54:20.160 Yeah.

01:54:20.960 And it's, so now I have to find out things outside.

01:54:24.160 So outside of music and comedy, what, what do you like?

01:54:29.660 Do you, as someone who you, I mean, I feel like we're so similar in the, in the so many

01:54:34.560 ways when you look at the world of people going and experiencing things like, you know,

01:54:41.280 someone's skydiving and somebody's going surfing.

01:54:43.780 Like, do you ever go past the sea and watch people surfing and go, God, I wish I could just

01:54:48.080 like be in the world like that, the way they are.

01:54:52.460 Oh yeah.

01:54:52.920 I think that all the time.

01:54:54.640 It's hard for, it's for, there's something about it that's tough for me.

01:54:57.480 I think sometimes I do comedy.

01:54:59.620 I want to be the person in the crowd having a good time.

01:55:02.000 I want to be the one laughing.

01:55:03.140 You would like, uh, when, uh, when yay said, uh, for me knows Kanye West said, um, I, the,

01:55:13.240 my, my greatest regret is that I was never able to see myself perform live.

01:55:17.400 It seems, seems like an egotistical thing to say, but I think in, in some ways,

01:55:22.920 it articulates something that a lot of performers feel, um, not necessarily present at their

01:55:32.100 own shows.

01:55:33.380 And actually they want to be more part of the feeling that everyone else is having than they

01:55:38.440 are of the feeling they're having.

01:55:40.280 Yeah.

01:55:40.700 I think forever, I never went to any comedy or listened to much at all.

01:55:43.580 You know, I did, I think I didn't want to be influenced and I think I was just so stuck

01:55:47.320 in my own little world.

01:55:48.900 I didn't want anything to mess up my world or anything to influence it.

01:55:52.820 You know, I just valued my own little creative space so much, really almost too much.

01:55:57.700 It kept me isolated, but I didn't, um, I didn't want to have, uh, any real influences

01:56:04.120 outside of myself.

01:56:05.340 And sometimes I thought, yeah, I wish I could be the person laughing at the show.

01:56:10.300 Yeah.

01:56:10.540 If I can't be, at least I'll be as the closest I can to that person will be someone at least

01:56:16.660 making the humor.

01:56:17.820 Yeah, totally.

01:56:18.540 It's like, at least then I'm part of the equation.

01:56:20.240 That's how I felt about music.

01:56:21.580 That's how I felt about, uh, DJing, uh, as well, because like, I always felt really

01:56:26.120 self-conscious about dancing and like expressing myself in those ways.

01:56:30.200 And also I'm very tall.

01:56:32.420 I'm very, you know, I mean, I wouldn't say I'm out of proportion, but I, but I'm a long

01:56:37.120 fella, but I'm a long person and I, and I, my limbs, you get shot first in army.

01:56:42.060 Exactly.

01:56:42.820 I'd be, you know, what's that movie where they, they, they, a wire comes across the ship

01:56:48.180 and all the people that are taller than a certain height get immediately killed.

01:56:51.240 Oh, damn.

01:56:51.780 Ghost ship.

01:56:53.640 Um, I'd be gone in the first scene.

01:56:56.520 And then also I'm, you know, like, uh, we call them daddy long legs, but they're like

01:57:01.420 mayflies or whatever those, those little insects that have like those really long legs and they

01:57:05.780 just sort of like bumble around, like not knocking into stuff.

01:57:09.360 That's me at like a rave or, you know, something.

01:57:12.800 So I, I just, I like, I'm, I'm, I always feel slightly uncomfortable.

01:57:16.420 Like never, I'm always knocking into people like, Oh shit.

01:57:19.320 Does I knock it?

01:57:20.300 And then, you know, back to, you know, losing myself.

01:57:24.080 I can never quite lose myself in the moment.

01:57:26.840 Yeah.

01:57:27.240 I can never lose myself completely, man.

01:57:29.300 Right.

01:57:29.640 I find that some, so I, uh, I find that DJing is like an amazing way of like not having

01:57:36.160 to, just not having to contend with any of that stuff.

01:57:39.120 And instead I can just stand there and be worshiped like a God.

01:57:43.480 No, no, no.

01:57:43.920 I can be just present the music that everyone just gets, you know, gets to do that too.

01:57:50.640 Yeah.

01:57:51.040 And then I'm, then at least my excuse can be that, well, I can't be down there at the

01:57:57.460 same time.

01:57:58.160 Right.

01:57:58.860 So.

01:57:59.780 Yeah.

01:58:00.120 At least then you have an excuse.

01:58:01.360 Yeah.

01:58:01.860 Oh, that's interesting.

01:58:02.520 And no one can come up to me and make some small talk that I can't hear.

01:58:06.940 Cause it's too loud.

01:58:08.560 And then I don't have, there's no chance of me like saying something dumb to someone

01:58:12.900 or like not, you know, not having a cool social interaction.

01:58:17.760 I can just stand up there and people can assume that I'm cool because I'm D because

01:58:21.620 I'm a DJ, but I'm actually not.

01:58:24.380 And I never have to reveal that.

01:58:27.580 Dude, that's yeah.

01:58:28.480 It's like, if you're in that space, it kind of keeps you safe from everything.

01:58:32.520 Complete bubble.

01:58:33.560 Yeah.

01:58:33.900 It's amazing.

01:58:34.420 It's such a, it's such a control.

01:58:36.480 And people give DJs such a, you know, it's like a mythology.

01:58:39.620 It was like crazy.

01:58:40.400 I mean, you must think even that's crazy a hundred percent and, and they pay them way

01:58:46.360 more than they should.

01:58:47.560 I don't know what's happening.

01:58:49.420 DJing is like the, I don't know how that works.

01:58:51.720 It's, it's honestly.

01:58:55.140 Yeah.

01:58:55.540 It feels exorbitant.

01:58:56.700 Have you been to festivals and stuff where it's just like DJ festivals and stuff?

01:58:59.900 Yeah.

01:59:00.120 Oh, wow.

01:59:01.060 Yeah.

01:59:01.520 So sometimes do you just DJ and sometimes you play your music?

01:59:05.380 I DJ.

01:59:06.160 I actually love DJing.

01:59:07.380 It's like, um, uh, for me, there's, I mean, it's such a craft to it and it's so deep.

01:59:12.880 Like it's great, a great DJ is like, uh, you know, controlling the vibe of the entire

01:59:18.640 place and like can be in tune with genuinely in tune with the crowd.

01:59:22.380 And like, it's a, it's a real, um, you know, you can go into a set not knowing at all what

01:59:29.060 you're going to play and just, and just watch the crowd and figure out how you're going to

01:59:33.700 like you're, you're coming on after the next, the DJ before you, and you're watching how

01:59:39.960 they're playing to the crowd and you're seeing what works and then you're going, okay, what's

01:59:43.820 in my record bag that I can, you're back in the day I'd play vinyl.

01:59:47.060 Yeah.

01:59:47.460 And so I'd be, you know, just kind of acting on it's real in the moment decisions.

01:59:55.320 Like this tune is in the right key or it's in the right tempo.

01:59:59.640 It was in the right, it's the right vibe to come on to, to follow on from the last thing

02:00:04.400 and like, oh, this one will get them like this one will get them dancing or this one.

02:00:09.820 So that feeling is like, you're kind of living through them vicariously.

02:00:15.420 You're like experiencing that hype and that fun with them and through them.

02:00:21.180 And then you can kind of like, kind of pretend you're at your own show at the same time.

02:00:25.540 And it's, it's like psychological and it's, it's also,

02:00:33.660 you're getting to hear all your favorite music and like, it's just, it's brilliant.

02:00:41.400 Yeah.

02:00:41.460 My friend Satchfield is a DJ down in New Orleans and he's one of my best friends from growing

02:00:44.760 up and I get to watch him like, you know, how he looks at a group of people and like,

02:00:50.160 you know, you can see the wheels start turning in his head and like, and he knows so much

02:00:54.960 music.

02:00:55.540 So you just start to think like, you start to see him grin and kind of like, all right,

02:01:00.200 what's going to happen?

02:01:00.700 The cogs are turning.

02:01:01.640 Yeah.

02:01:02.020 Yeah.

02:01:02.260 Yeah.

02:01:04.460 What else?

02:01:05.080 What else happened in the news?

02:01:06.100 Zach, anything else interesting out there?

02:01:07.780 Uh, yeah, we were talking about this.

02:01:10.640 This is a pretty American story.

02:01:12.200 Uh, Philadelphia man just ate a rotisserie chicken every day for 40 days.

02:01:17.120 Ooh.

02:01:17.860 Oh, wow.

02:01:18.480 He doesn't recommend it.

02:01:19.520 He's on the, uh, the, the, um, Jordan Peterson diet.

02:01:24.360 Yeah.

02:01:24.840 Oh, I went to dinner with Jordan Peterson, man.

02:01:26.540 And, uh, during the pandemic with him and his daughter and her boyfriend, and they ordered

02:01:33.020 all meat, all meat.

02:01:35.120 And brother, at the end of the meal, there's literally a plate of bones in the middle of

02:01:39.660 the table.

02:01:40.180 It very much had like this game of Thrones type of vibe.

02:01:43.720 And no, no asparagus, no vegetables.

02:01:45.900 Nothing.

02:01:47.060 Meat.

02:01:47.340 I think somebody had sparkling water and they even frowned at him a little, whoever it

02:01:50.840 was.

02:01:51.720 Other people had flat water, but somebody bubbled up and everybody was like, you whore.

02:01:55.480 Yeah.

02:01:55.840 So they just went, but in the end, it looked like a plate, like a batch of, looking a batch

02:02:00.720 of dogs had been there.

02:02:01.960 Just a plate.

02:02:02.860 I'll have to, we'll have to put some pictures in.

02:02:04.180 I have that.

02:02:04.900 I, uh, could you ever go all birded out like this?

02:02:07.780 Have you done anything like that?

02:02:08.560 I'm, I've never done 40 days of eating whole chickens, but I've, um, I mean, I'm vegetarian,

02:02:15.040 so it's not something.

02:02:16.460 Oh, you are.

02:02:17.260 You're vegetarian.

02:02:17.740 It's not a sport I can really participate in.

02:02:20.820 He didn't really have a reason, which is my criticism.

02:02:23.080 He just said he's doing it to bring people together.

02:02:25.080 So I don't, I mean, judging by that picture, it did bring a lot of people together.

02:02:30.640 I wonder what.

02:02:32.040 It looks like, yeah.

02:02:32.760 The last supper at like an Albertsons.

02:02:34.820 Yeah.

02:02:35.000 He's like the high priest of chicken eating.

02:02:38.640 Yeah.

02:02:39.040 It has a very renaissance.

02:02:40.260 This looks like a lot of like a, like a, uh, pre-party for a renaissance fair.

02:02:44.220 I feel like it looks like a, it looks like a, a paint, a renaissance painting.

02:02:48.900 Yes, it does.

02:02:49.780 Huh?

02:02:50.140 It actually would be really cool if somebody made like a nice painting of that, you know,

02:02:54.180 the rotisserie.

02:02:55.060 You can challenge, I mean, there's a lot of great bits of art in here.

02:02:58.080 I think you should challenge your listeners to, to paint this because it's a, it's a wonderful

02:03:03.560 scene.

02:03:03.960 Oh, it's remarkable actually.

02:03:05.200 The 40th day of rotisserie chicken.

02:03:07.280 I wonder how many of those, I wonder if that crowd grew over the 40 days to this.

02:03:12.660 I imagine it didn't start this way.

02:03:14.760 His girlfriend probably left him.

02:03:16.440 I'm sure after day eight or something of her being lonely.

02:03:19.160 Well, I imagine the smell probably got, got, um, quite overwhelming.

02:03:23.840 And there he is.

02:03:24.540 And it seems very perverse.

02:03:25.880 I think there's something, uh, yeah, there's something Oedipal or something going on.

02:03:34.320 Yeah.

02:03:34.820 Something like that.

02:03:36.020 I could, I don't even really know what that means, but.

02:03:38.840 Did you ever work at a, uh, food place, James?

02:03:41.820 I never worked at a food place.

02:03:43.480 No.

02:03:43.940 Did you have a job?

02:03:44.460 Although I did, I did, I did one time, uh, do a job at a festival where I was part of

02:03:50.340 catering stuff.

02:03:51.260 Oh yeah.

02:03:51.740 Um, and they gave us a, uh, one baked potato for lunch, for lunch and dinner.

02:03:58.240 That was what we had.

02:03:59.020 It was a one baked potato, which I thought was unreasonable to say the least.

02:04:04.980 I mean, it was a, they weren't, they didn't give you any butter or anything.

02:04:07.800 It was just, you, you queued up for a baked potato and that was your sustenance for the

02:04:12.140 day.

02:04:12.620 Every British story I feel like has like some mild starvation somewhere in it.

02:04:16.640 I feel like there's like such a.

02:04:18.160 Some self punishment or like some kind of.

02:04:20.280 There's such bad launching.

02:04:21.920 It was like four.

02:04:22.740 Have you ever seen the four Yorkshiremen sketch?

02:04:24.420 Uh-uh.

02:04:25.140 I'll have to play that to you.

02:04:26.280 Basically, it's a bunch of people sitting around being like, you know, where are we?

02:04:32.380 When we grew up, we didn't have a pot to piss in, you know, we didn't blah, blah, blah.

02:04:35.840 And then the other guy's like, yeah, well, I mean, we didn't even have a house.

02:04:39.400 We lived in a ditch, blah, blah, blah.

02:04:41.000 You know?

02:04:41.560 And when our dad came home, he beat us around the head and it was like, oh, you were lucky.

02:04:45.040 The other guy's like, you were lucky.

02:04:46.780 We had a, you know, our dad would come home and stab us and we'd live in a pond, you know?

02:04:53.620 Anyway, so that's, that's like, but it's like a classic, uh, I mean, I'm really miss.

02:04:59.000 No, it's look.

02:04:59.740 But it's, but it's a, it's a classic English sketch and that's kind of what the, the baked

02:05:03.400 potato thing sort of like conjures really is this like stark, uh, just, you know, scarcity

02:05:13.240 mentality situation where, but, but, but, but then it's at a festival where everyone's having

02:05:19.600 loads of fun.

02:05:20.760 Um, yeah, everybody's all geeked up on, uh, Molly eating baked potatoes and all.

02:05:25.180 Well, I mean, they were all eating, you know, from food trucks and like, so we were just,

02:05:29.020 but anyway, so I, I worked there and, and, um, but that was only for two days and then

02:05:33.560 I got fired, I think, cause I just wasn't, I wasn't, I just, I felt a way about the potatoes.

02:05:40.720 I just felt like it wasn't enough.

02:05:44.200 And I'm obviously very tall.

02:05:45.540 I was always, I was always tall.

02:05:46.600 I was tall then.

02:05:47.600 Oh, so.

02:05:50.360 It's hard being that tall guy.

02:05:51.740 I feel like the, remember the one kid that would come back from summer tall and everybody

02:05:55.120 be like, what in the, look at this motherfucker.

02:05:57.280 Yeah.

02:05:57.420 You know, people would all be like, Oh, look at this show off.

02:05:59.660 That was me.

02:06:00.360 What does he think he's doing?

02:06:01.720 Oh, look at this guy with his pussy ass little cervical spine.

02:06:05.800 Yeah.

02:06:06.000 Yeah.

02:06:06.160 Yeah.

02:06:06.440 You know, and they start saying all that kind of shit.

02:06:08.600 They did say that kind of shit.

02:06:09.840 And I just, I just took it.

02:06:11.880 And then I learned to love my height over time, but it started.

02:06:16.800 Yeah.

02:06:17.420 I hated being tall.

02:06:19.140 Really hated it.

02:06:19.940 Oh, it would, I think it would be such an adventure, but it would be very interesting

02:06:24.500 when you put your arm out of the bed and it just touches the floor.

02:06:28.060 It pets the cat if it's down there.

02:06:29.800 Yeah.

02:06:30.240 What about this?

02:06:30.900 You start hitting your head on stuff.

02:06:32.240 Oh, and then you hate your fucking head.

02:06:34.760 I did that a number of times.

02:06:37.120 I mean, it probably accounts for some of my personality.

02:06:40.520 Now, what about love?

02:06:41.900 A lot of your song, there's definitely a lot of loss, a lot of like, Jesus, huh?

02:06:46.040 Some gal left this guy at the day old bread store, you know?

02:06:51.700 Yes.

02:06:52.480 Where does some of that come from?

02:06:54.540 Like, where do you think some of that comes from?

02:06:57.020 Well, my first record, I'd never been in love.

02:07:02.820 And, well, if I had, it would be unrequited.

02:07:06.160 So I was, I lost my virginity very late.

02:07:08.520 I was a very late bloomer.

02:07:11.100 And so I was just.

02:07:13.740 Like 20 years old?

02:07:15.560 20, 22, 23.

02:07:18.800 Pretty late.

02:07:19.720 I mean, in this country, that's probably not as uncommon because, maybe because of religious

02:07:24.020 reasons.

02:07:25.740 I don't know what the exchange rate of virginity is, really.

02:07:28.860 I think it's probably about 1 to 1, 0.6 to 1 when it comes to like British to American.

02:07:37.620 Yeah.

02:07:38.520 Um, so like what the dollar to the pound used to be.

02:07:42.600 Oh, yeah.

02:07:44.180 Um, and I just didn't, I was always very ashamed of that at the time.

02:07:52.840 That you hadn't lost it yet?

02:07:54.120 But I hadn't.

02:07:54.640 Yeah.

02:07:54.840 And I, and I was also wasn't like, I wasn't in the game.

02:07:59.240 Oh, so you were really on the sidelines.

02:08:01.000 I was really on the sidelines just kind of being like, people will be talking about sex

02:08:04.760 and I'd be like, yeah, I mean, yeah.

02:08:06.680 I mean, totally like vaginas.

02:08:09.880 For sure.

02:08:10.440 For sure.

02:08:10.960 Like, I get it, man.

02:08:12.440 Yeah.

02:08:12.840 Like, it must be.

02:08:14.160 Man, you'd be wearing like a Man City jersey just talking about it like this.

02:08:17.400 Yeah, for sure, man.

02:08:18.520 Yeah, for like, horse.

02:08:20.400 Yeah.

02:08:20.820 Sex always.

02:08:21.440 I know what you're talking about.

02:08:23.600 Wow.

02:08:24.000 So you were really on the sidelines just of like, kind of like a lot of social stuff kind

02:08:27.900 of, or?

02:08:28.360 Yeah, I think so.

02:08:29.360 I was, I think I was just a, I was an outsider in a lot of ways and, uh.

02:08:33.680 Cause that gives you a lot of time to observe stuff and see it.

02:08:36.800 Yeah.

02:08:37.020 But I was also like, I was kind of semi-popular in other ways.

02:08:39.980 Like I was, I was always like a bit of a, I was always a bit of a class clown and I

02:08:45.660 was, I, I got in trouble a lot and I was always very kind of insolent and like,

02:08:51.440 not, I don't know if I was acting out cause I thought it was cool or cause I thought it

02:08:56.020 was, I genuinely had a lot of like, uh, like I, I was, um, anti-establishment in general.

02:09:03.600 Like I just felt, I just felt, I felt like I wasn't supposed to be at school as well.

02:09:09.400 I always felt like I was supposed to be, you know, um, in music somewhere doing something

02:09:17.040 else or doing something else.

02:09:18.140 Just, I just knew that I wasn't supposed to, I knew I didn't need science.

02:09:21.440 School probably always felt very novice to you.

02:09:23.440 I knew I didn't need to learn French.

02:09:25.120 Right.

02:09:25.520 It probably felt novice to you, um, in a, in a strange way.

02:09:29.600 It didn't feel, it didn't feel like beneath me or it didn't feel, it didn't feel like I,

02:09:33.980 I didn't feel like I was too smart for it or I didn't feel like I was just for, I just

02:09:37.240 thought I don't need these skills.

02:09:40.180 I don't cause I know where I'm going and I don't need any of this stuff.

02:09:43.160 Oh yeah.

02:09:43.800 What I need is to get older.

02:09:47.560 Yeah.

02:09:49.220 I just need to be 10 years older and then I'll have what I want.

02:09:53.640 Interesting.

02:09:54.020 And also there was this thing, I can't remember what it was, alpha personality or something.

02:09:57.360 Basically where you have this thing where you're like, in the future, I'm going to get everything

02:10:02.600 I always wanted.

02:10:03.380 And so it's okay that I'm suffering now, you know, so there's this delusional kind of thing

02:10:08.680 of like, I've got my eyes on the prize.

02:10:11.420 And so you can all like, you can all laugh.

02:10:17.220 Right.

02:10:18.040 But I'm going to be this, I'm going to, you know, be a 23 year old virgin.

02:10:23.880 Uh, and so I, um, I just move this mic down just a touch.

02:10:30.520 Oh yeah.

02:10:30.780 Sorry.

02:10:31.180 You good?

02:10:31.620 Or just down a little.

02:10:32.400 Yeah, there you go.

02:10:33.060 There we go.

02:10:34.140 Um, sorry.

02:10:34.680 It's my, it's my first time on a, on a podcast.

02:10:37.580 Oh, yeah.

02:10:38.460 Happy to have you, man.

02:10:39.280 Oh no, I did.

02:10:39.880 I did Jamila's, but I could, you know, I mean.

02:10:42.000 You have to.

02:10:43.700 I mean.

02:10:44.320 What are you going to not?

02:10:45.260 I'm not going to do Jamila's podcast.

02:10:46.900 I thought I had a chance with her, Dan.

02:10:48.440 I didn't even know I was dropping her off at your house too.

02:10:51.580 You thought there was a long career in podcasting with her ahead of you.

02:10:56.440 Um, what, uh, what else do we have?

02:10:59.760 What else is in the news?

02:11:00.920 Oh, wait.

02:11:01.740 So did you first time you fell in love then?

02:11:03.720 So what was that like?

02:11:06.220 It was really amazing.

02:11:07.520 I mean, I did wait.

02:11:08.640 I waited and it wasn't, I didn't do it in a kind of, um, like a religious sense, but I think there was a spiritual component to it.

02:11:15.700 I think I was waiting for someone I trusted.

02:11:17.940 I think I was waiting for someone I had a spiritual connection with.

02:11:21.220 Um, but actually in the end, I lost, lost my virginity to someone around someone kind of random who I had no connection with at all.

02:11:29.920 Um, but the relationship I ended up in was one that was great.

02:11:36.460 Yeah.

02:11:36.720 Yeah.

02:11:36.960 Someone, someone really wonderful.

02:11:38.280 And, and, um, and then I only had one more relationship after that and that's the one I'm in.

02:11:44.420 Um, so that brings us up to now, but, um.

02:11:46.760 Yeah.

02:11:46.840 And you guys have been in love for a long time.

02:11:49.580 Eight years.

02:11:50.700 Wow.

02:11:51.700 It's about eight years.

02:11:52.460 Um, that's cool.

02:11:56.140 That's rare.

02:11:57.080 Yeah, it is.

02:11:58.620 Um, she's incredible and, you know, it, I guess it does feel like we've, it just always feels like we've been together a year, which is kind of amazing.

02:12:10.480 That's kind of a cool lyric or something like that.

02:12:12.480 You know?

02:12:13.420 Uh, yeah, it is.

02:12:15.200 Although, you know, people are, people are strange about listening to love songs about songs.

02:12:22.460 Someone you're actually with.

02:12:23.840 I don't know why that is.

02:12:25.800 Oh, that's true.

02:12:26.780 If that's the case, it almost becomes a little bit.

02:12:31.180 Yeah.

02:12:31.600 Does it take on more of a country music vibe then sometime a little bit?

02:12:35.300 I should get, become a country artist and then people would accept.

02:12:39.400 That it's the love songs you're actually with.

02:12:40.980 Yeah.

02:12:41.260 Cause there's something about your songs.

02:12:42.800 I want you to not be with the person.

02:12:45.180 You want me, you want me to be completely fucking heartbroken.

02:12:48.260 I want the person to be as lonely as I probably am feeling or it's like, you know, you want

02:12:54.920 there to be some of that.

02:12:55.920 And look, James's music is an all lonely music.

02:12:57.940 If you haven't heard it, it's all, it's all types of stuff, but it's a nice way to want,

02:13:01.780 I find it to, it's, it's, it's, it's changes a lot, but it's, it's, um, there's all different.

02:13:07.080 There's all to, yes.

02:13:07.800 Yeah.

02:13:08.000 Yeah.

02:13:08.260 But I did become known for like a very, you know, um, a period in my life where I wrote a lot

02:13:16.960 of the music that I became known for was a time of immense sadness and loneliness for

02:13:21.680 me.

02:13:21.980 So, I mean, I guess it came out sounding a little bit forlorn and a little bit that, but

02:13:27.800 also at the same time, it's uplifting music at the same time, because it's like, it's

02:13:31.340 a bit like, um, a bit like with Radiohead, for example, there's, there's certain bands

02:13:36.560 who through time have, have got the criticism of sad or as if that's criticism.

02:13:44.880 I don't know why, but you know, sad or doubt or depressing or whatever.

02:13:49.060 And I think that's just a reflection of whoever is listening most of the time.

02:13:54.040 I mean, something can sound dreary and on some day be dreary and on another day be completely

02:13:59.560 uplifting.

02:14:00.080 It just depends what your mood is and how it's.

02:14:03.080 And also I would never want to like, I'd never want to, uh, discourage.

02:14:08.300 And I hate language that discourages people from listening to music that gives them emotional

02:14:13.120 release.

02:14:14.400 Like, that's why I had such a problem with the sad boy term.

02:14:18.080 And like, when I would, I'd get written about in, in like publications, like, you know, certain

02:14:23.940 publications, basically who would, who would write, you know, like one of the things was

02:14:29.520 like, he needs to, maybe should get out more or like, I was just like, you don't get it.

02:14:35.400 Like you don't get that there are people who feel the same thing as I feel.

02:14:38.700 Right.

02:14:39.500 Who are listening to this processing stuff.

02:14:42.460 Right.

02:14:43.140 And by this language, what you're saying is like, don't do that.

02:14:47.780 Oh yeah.

02:14:48.700 And you might be, you might actually be taking away someone's emotional comfort blanket that

02:14:54.940 makes their life way harder.

02:14:58.060 You know, it's funny.

02:14:59.000 I think that's an honest too about like, sometimes on this podcast, I'll talk about feelings and

02:15:02.440 things that I've had over the years.

02:15:03.640 And sometimes I feel like it gets, it's tough because I have to, I have to walk this line.

02:15:08.020 I don't want to get too melancholy.

02:15:09.820 Yeah.

02:15:10.000 I don't want to get, actually, I don't care if I get melancholy, but I don't want to get

02:15:14.560 where I am in self pity.

02:15:16.880 Like self indulgent.

02:15:17.820 Right.

02:15:18.380 And it can happen.

02:15:19.680 It's really tough.

02:15:20.640 It's tough because you don't notice it happening.

02:15:22.420 You think you're just exploring it more.

02:15:24.240 Right.

02:15:24.860 And, and it can, and it can certainly, it can certainly happen.

02:15:28.780 And I think with, with music though, it's interesting because it's like music and musicians,

02:15:33.980 they let us feel something that we can't say.

02:15:37.440 It's like, man, this, you'll see somebody who won't even talk probably to their wife or

02:15:42.060 something, but then they'll, they'll both get there and sing a song together or dance

02:15:47.260 to us.

02:15:47.660 It's like, well, that video of everyone singing, I can't remember what it is.

02:15:51.660 Yeah.

02:15:51.900 The people trapped in a mental hospital singing Katy Perry, you know, or whatever.

02:15:55.460 I want it that way.

02:15:56.120 Backstreet Boys.

02:15:56.800 Backstreet Boys.

02:15:57.300 Yeah.

02:15:57.440 Yeah.

02:15:57.680 Yeah.

02:15:58.120 I mean, you know, and to some extent there is some truth in, you know, like the parent,

02:16:02.980 our parents' generation would just be like, no, don't talk about it.

02:16:05.700 Like, just come on, man.

02:16:07.740 You don't need to go to therapy.

02:16:09.200 Just crack on, carry on.

02:16:13.720 Yeah.

02:16:13.840 You'll be all right.

02:16:14.720 Just, you know, just like.

02:16:16.220 Pick up that pail, walk up the hill.

02:16:17.620 Yeah.

02:16:17.840 Just, just, just, um, you know, to some extent, like talk about it to a friend, but other than

02:16:22.980 that, just get on with it and, you know, you'll, you'll be, uh, you can, you know,

02:16:27.660 push through it.

02:16:28.500 And, and even the British are cracking now.

02:16:30.520 Patty Pimlet had a fricking outspoken speech.

02:16:32.760 Remember a couple of fights ago.

02:16:34.480 What was that?

02:16:34.920 Oh, no.

02:16:35.360 Like my mate.

02:16:36.120 Oh yeah.

02:16:36.620 Yeah.

02:16:36.940 You know, it's like, you know, it's like, yeah, I saw that Brit, you know, that was

02:16:39.760 really moving.

02:16:40.800 Yeah.

02:16:41.100 It was just, you know, it's like, yeah, I think we're also like, there's just an inner human.

02:16:47.620 Humanity is this energy of nature.

02:16:49.420 It's this path of nature.

02:16:50.920 Yeah.

02:16:51.320 We don't really know what it is yet.

02:16:52.900 Yeah.

02:16:53.100 That's true.

02:16:53.980 And I think we've, you know, when you look at how much feeling and stuff is in there at

02:17:00.820 a certain point, it's got to come out.

02:17:02.360 It is, it has.

02:17:03.700 And then, but then I think what you're touching on is quite interesting.

02:17:05.760 Cause it's like, we're not, there is a certain point at which it's not productive anymore.

02:17:11.920 And, you know, I think that coming to a balance between our generation, maybe, and the generation

02:17:19.280 before us or a couple before us, a balance between those two mentalities of like, you

02:17:24.800 know, maybe self victimization on our account or kind of going over the same things over

02:17:32.240 and over again and not realizing you're in a cycle or pattern or just kind of like focusing

02:17:39.360 so much on the trauma that you're not actually kind of paying attention to like actual real

02:17:45.480 life practices that can help you or like forward motion, forward momentum.

02:17:49.560 Like the fact that achievement actually genuinely does, you know, can be a good motivation

02:17:55.840 or, you know, like general, um, kind of, yeah, like positive thinking, like lots of, you

02:18:05.340 know, it's like you can just dwell on things and we have, uh, a, you know, there is a school

02:18:12.240 of thought that says being in constant kind of term, kind of, uh, digging up of things

02:18:20.960 is a good, is, is like important.

02:18:23.140 I think there's a balance to be struck and the, the kind of, uh, wisdom in the older generations

02:18:29.520 sometimes is that, um, that we, there is a lot of common, common, uh, commonality to

02:18:39.660 be found between people and that our differences sometimes are not always worth dwelling on

02:18:45.500 and that we are, we are strong, capable, uh, people who can fucking get it done, get it

02:18:57.320 done.

02:18:57.740 Yeah.

02:18:57.940 Get, persevere, take care of ourselves.

02:18:59.720 Yeah.

02:19:00.120 Sometimes we have to come to our own rescue.

02:19:01.800 You start to realize that too.

02:19:03.300 It's like the self-help stuff.

02:19:05.240 It starts to create sometimes too much of a world where you're always trying to help yourself

02:19:08.580 and you're reading up and taking in so much stuff about, you know, inspirational, but you're

02:19:14.320 not actionable.

02:19:15.840 And also that's an industry that's a, people are profiting off your, your, your constant

02:19:20.300 engagement with self-help, your constant engagement.

02:19:22.800 It's like at a certain point, it's like, are you okay?

02:19:25.600 Yeah.

02:19:25.760 You know, if you're not, you know, I, I think that we, I always encourage being, uh, aware

02:19:31.420 of your emotions and trying to delve into them and like figure them out.

02:19:34.960 Um, but I think there is a, there is a certain point where it's time to rejoin the world and

02:19:45.440 try and float.

02:19:46.880 Yeah.

02:19:47.280 I mean, you, yeah, I find you will, if you sit there in that feeling long enough, looking

02:19:51.020 around inside of it and looking at the, reading the graffiti and shit, you will, then that's

02:19:55.600 where you're going to live.

02:19:56.620 You know, I start to realize it's like, you know, they always say you can act your way

02:20:00.280 into positive thinking, but you can't think your way into positive action, you know?

02:20:04.280 Right.

02:20:04.820 And that's something I have to come back to.

02:20:06.300 Cause I like to dwell, I like to wander around in the, in the, um, in the art museum of my

02:20:12.160 childhood and of my like things that meant something to me and like my first kiss and

02:20:18.460 the first like mistakes I made.

02:20:21.500 And like, I like to wander around and look at all the artifacts and things, but you can't

02:20:25.520 live in the museum.

02:20:26.400 You can't.

02:20:26.860 Yeah.

02:20:27.200 Yeah.

02:20:27.520 And there's a time to shut it off and leave the museum.

02:20:29.640 Um, yeah, there's a, um, kind of a, I think it was my girlfriend just talking about like,

02:20:34.640 you know, being in this hole and just like painting the walls and it's just, now it's

02:20:38.540 just a beautiful hole.

02:20:39.400 It's like, which is now sounds, but no, it's semi-sexual in a way that I didn't want it

02:20:45.460 to, but that's, you know, that is to some extent, it like sums up where you can get to

02:20:53.440 where you can draw the map perfectly of how your emotions have your, of your emotional

02:21:00.500 state.

02:21:00.900 You can become so obsessed with like understanding your emotional state that actually you've

02:21:07.480 kind of taken focus off actual forward momentum and living.

02:21:10.740 Um, and yeah, so, and I think huge, yeah, it is.

02:21:13.780 And I think a lot of people who are in that place, they, they, you know, a lot of people

02:21:18.180 who you, have you noticed this when someone's just for the first time discovering like shit

02:21:24.740 that they've done wrong or the things that they like not happy about with themselves, they're

02:21:29.520 just constantly talking about it and they want to talk about it to everyone and every,

02:21:33.520 you know, and, and they're going into such detail and you're just like, but that's someone

02:21:39.220 who is at the start.

02:21:42.020 They just got there.

02:21:42.900 They just started.

02:21:44.100 That's always the way.

02:21:46.220 Um, and yeah, I eventually I wanted to get to a place where I just didn't have to talk

02:21:50.700 about it, you know, and I could just talk about other shit.

02:21:54.140 Yeah.

02:21:54.520 Or at least look back on it with a sense of power and not be standing in it as much.

02:21:58.880 Yeah.

02:21:59.080 Cause I did all that.

02:22:00.160 I've gone through all of those phases.

02:22:02.000 This is not coming from a judgmental place.

02:22:03.500 This is saying to like, this is saying like, you have to kind of like become that like evangelizing

02:22:09.320 kind of just to, just to, you know, you've got to destabilize first.

02:22:14.400 I think that's why it's so hard sometimes to imagine looking inwards because initially

02:22:20.520 you're going to have to go through a period of complete destabilization.

02:22:23.040 And that's why a lot of people never do it.

02:22:26.140 Um, which I think it's amazing that you have, uh, cause and I've been public about it and

02:22:32.300 talked about it on your podcast.

02:22:33.500 And a lot of people have probably done it through you and with you.

02:22:36.240 Yeah.

02:22:36.460 I think, you know, we just try and we will, we wonder sometimes what is our instrument?

02:22:40.140 Why does God have us here that, you know, to share whatever, you know, it's like, you

02:22:43.900 don't even know.

02:22:44.600 It's like, what is the little piece of the universe that's supposed to fly out of you?

02:22:49.580 Yeah.

02:22:50.140 So do you, do you out of side of, um, like podcasting, is there like a hobby that you

02:22:54.540 have or like a, do you play anything?

02:22:57.540 I just got a piano at home.

02:22:59.160 Oh, really?

02:22:59.740 Yeah.

02:23:00.180 So I'm excited about that.

02:23:01.180 Did you talk to me about that at one point?

02:23:02.300 Yeah.

02:23:02.420 I used to play and then I just got a new piano at home.

02:23:06.200 Nice.

02:23:06.640 It's a, it's a new used piano.

02:23:08.800 So yeah, it's a baby grand, I think a Baldwin.

02:23:13.080 Nice.

02:23:13.560 I've got a baby grand.

02:23:14.600 I grew up around this place called Baldwin Motors.

02:23:17.020 They used to do tire care, I think.

02:23:18.620 Yeah.

02:23:18.760 Baldwin's a nice.

02:23:19.300 We looked at Baldwin Motors, Covington, Louisiana.

02:23:21.580 So I don't know if they make, I don't know if they also do pianos or this is a family.

02:23:24.840 I don't know.

02:23:25.080 It could be joint family, but, um.

02:23:28.560 I mean, it'd be amazing if they did cars and pianos.

02:23:31.240 Yeah.

02:23:31.660 Well, I think they did some good cars.

02:23:33.060 That's Baldwin Motors right there.

02:23:35.640 I suspect it's not the same, but I.

02:23:37.980 Oh, they really upgraded.

02:23:39.360 They used to just do mostly tires.

02:23:41.260 Although Yamaha make pianos and they also make 4,000.

02:23:44.680 Vroom, vroom.

02:23:45.480 Yeah.

02:23:45.740 They make a lot of things.

02:23:46.720 Vroom, vroom, vroom.

02:23:47.560 Yeah.

02:23:47.980 What about, um.

02:23:49.860 I'm trying to think of something else.

02:23:51.200 What else is in the news, Zach?

02:23:52.320 Anything else neat out there?

02:23:53.380 That man ate those chickens, but I didn't really.

02:23:55.780 We didn't really talk about that.

02:23:57.320 Well, it didn't do it for me.

02:23:58.820 Did it.

02:23:59.300 Was it just.

02:23:59.720 There's something about it.

02:24:00.520 It seems grotesque a little bit, I guess, but.

02:24:03.020 Is it not, um.

02:24:04.800 I don't like those chickens.

02:24:06.980 I.

02:24:07.320 Yeah.

02:24:07.940 I don't like those rotisserie chickens.

02:24:09.460 It just.

02:24:10.320 Have you ever seen 40 chickens either?

02:24:12.960 No.

02:24:13.320 It seems like a number of chickens that shouldn't exist all at the same time.

02:24:17.500 Well, and it just like, what, you know, I just see some man just pulling.

02:24:20.980 And the chicken always feels like it's just barely chicken.

02:24:24.180 It just, it feels like they've been through it all, you know, like also if you just put

02:24:28.500 it down like to, you know, if we were really to analyze that situation, it's like, it's

02:24:35.160 not that hard to eat 40 chickens every day.

02:24:37.980 You know, it's like one chicken every day.

02:24:39.800 Yeah.

02:24:40.440 Could you imagine?

02:24:41.080 I mean.

02:24:41.420 Yeah, I could do it.

02:24:42.200 You could do that.

02:24:43.040 I could do that.

02:24:44.020 I mean, I'm vegetarian, but I could do that.

02:24:45.120 By 28 days, I would not be.

02:24:46.380 I'd be like this.

02:24:47.000 Oh, I'd be bored.

02:24:48.220 Yeah.

02:24:48.800 But it's like just watching a man get bored for 40 days.

02:24:51.120 Isn't that.

02:24:52.120 Yeah.

02:24:52.280 You can do that anywhere.

02:24:53.140 I could really get bored anyway.

02:24:55.580 Someone could, I could watch a man getting bored.

02:24:58.880 I could just talk to the person I, my, uh, Dom, my, my producer, co-producer friend, asking

02:25:04.560 what it's like to work with me.

02:25:06.560 I don't think being bored for 40 days is, is entertainment.

02:25:10.820 Yeah.

02:25:11.540 As much as those people thought it was.

02:25:13.300 Unless it is now.

02:25:14.140 Like that's what entertainment also is becoming.

02:25:15.980 It's interesting how it's getting strange.

02:25:17.380 Like I would watch a woman, like a small woman eat, like maybe a hot dog or a piece of cake

02:25:25.560 or something online.

02:25:27.580 I would watch it.

02:25:28.760 To me, that'd be very entertaining.

02:25:30.500 I'm now imagining watching you watch her.

02:25:32.940 That's why I laughed.

02:25:33.840 Well, there's a Japanese show where they have little children go run to the market for their

02:25:38.720 mom or something.

02:25:39.800 Yeah.

02:25:39.980 And it's just like voice.

02:25:41.720 It's like a little bit of voiceover and you just watch them go on the little journey.

02:25:46.340 It's the show has to be for two to four year olds.

02:25:49.700 It is captivating.

02:25:51.340 But all of those shows are, I feel like they're universal ages really.

02:25:55.180 Well, this one is just something to learn from things like that.

02:25:58.100 What's that show?

02:25:58.540 Can you look it up, brother?

02:25:59.540 Japanese children go to market.

02:26:02.820 Um, it's captive at this show.

02:26:04.620 You just, while you're like, Oh, is he going to, you know, is kimchi going to make the

02:26:08.540 lemonade or whatever, you know, when he does it and you're just damn blown away.

02:26:12.540 Is it called old enough?

02:26:14.100 Old enough.

02:26:14.980 Yes.

02:26:15.740 God, it's good, man.

02:26:16.760 Kimchi's Korean, isn't it?

02:26:17.900 Yeah.

02:26:18.220 Kimchi is Korean too.

02:26:19.660 They changed it.

02:26:20.480 Is it?

02:26:20.960 Yeah.

02:26:21.640 They probably changed it.

02:26:22.840 There she is right there.

02:26:25.740 Wow.

02:26:26.140 Since children as young as two out into the world alone, it's an absolute roller coaster

02:26:29.820 of emotions.

02:26:30.240 The Japanese TV show that abandons toddlers on public transport.

02:26:35.060 It's one way to look at it, man.

02:26:36.780 But it's pretty great.

02:26:38.680 You see them go out there and they're just, who is that right there?

02:26:42.200 Is it saying?

02:26:43.380 Doesn't, doesn't give a name.

02:26:45.000 Oh yeah.

02:26:45.580 That's beautiful.

02:26:46.340 Just says forced to fend for themselves.

02:26:48.260 That's one way to look at it.

02:26:49.700 Look, it's tough times everywhere.

02:26:52.620 Um, I think there's something pandemic-y about that.

02:26:55.280 Isn't there something?

02:26:56.380 Oh no, it came out before the, wait, hold on.

02:26:58.480 When did this come out?

02:27:00.760 This is, this is a YouTube video.

02:27:03.260 Japanese kids go shopping alone.

02:27:04.540 Dude, did you, um, dude, do you remember that time when I came to saw you and saw you do

02:27:09.860 music and make music with Andre 3000?

02:27:14.080 Yeah.

02:27:16.380 Fuck.

02:27:17.340 Dude, I remember you inviting me out to this place and I, it was in Malibu.

02:27:21.460 It was like this cool, like kind of little-

02:27:23.060 Shangri-La.

02:27:23.880 Yeah.

02:27:24.240 It was like a studio kind of-

02:27:26.820 Looks like a rehab.

02:27:27.640 Yeah.

02:27:27.940 It looked like a little rehab.

02:27:29.640 So I pulled up and you and, um, and I didn't know that it was him there.

02:27:33.440 You didn't tell me that you were working, you know, you just said you were working in

02:27:36.220 a studio.

02:27:36.880 Yeah.

02:27:37.220 Yeah.

02:27:37.600 And I came up and you guys were working on something.

02:27:39.540 That was pretty cool.

02:27:40.680 Wow.

02:27:41.000 That was such an amazing time in my life.

02:27:43.820 We made a lot of music together.

02:27:45.360 Did you guys?

02:27:46.320 Yeah.

02:27:46.920 Yeah, we did.

02:27:47.620 Is it interesting with celebrity how you kind of pat, like you'll become like, you know,

02:27:51.940 together for a while with certain, and then you, it just-

02:27:55.820 You just, yeah, you just sort of pass each other.

02:27:58.060 But also, you know, we, we stayed in touch.

02:27:59.980 Like, I've talked to him fairly regularly and, um, he's just, I mean, he's, he's like

02:28:07.860 the, the goat.

02:28:09.900 Yeah.

02:28:10.340 As they say.

02:28:11.020 So, you know, I'll always be honored.

02:28:13.400 Just, uh, I find him always inspiring and probably still, he's still such a different

02:28:20.740 thinker, um, about everything.

02:28:23.180 And although he did go on the, the Ricky, um, the Rick Rubin podcast and say he's never

02:28:28.780 going to release any of the music, so.

02:28:30.960 That you guys made?

02:28:32.780 Well, I mean, he's just generally talking about music, you know, full stop.

02:28:37.780 So.

02:28:38.520 Why does he keep it?

02:28:40.540 I, I don't know.

02:28:42.140 Just, he just felt like, I think he was saying something along the lines of, you know, he

02:28:45.340 just feels sort of out the game or like not really part of that.

02:28:50.940 And he's just expressing himself in all these different ways.

02:28:53.040 And we actually did put something out.

02:28:54.460 We did make, we did a thing where he was playing clarinet and I was playing piano.

02:28:59.440 Um, I don't, I think for me, it's like, I don't, uh, I just want to help as a producer

02:29:05.440 because I was in a producer role.

02:29:08.700 I just want to help someone express the thing they want to express.

02:29:11.760 And if Andre 3000 isn't in a time of his life where he wants to make rap music, then I'll

02:29:18.440 help him express clarinet music.

02:29:22.240 Yeah.

02:29:22.660 Or help him express, maybe even just realize that, Hey, this isn't a time where you want

02:29:25.620 to put something out.

02:29:26.360 Yeah.

02:29:26.920 Which may change or may not.

02:29:29.000 Who knows?

02:29:29.440 Does a lot of music get put out?

02:29:31.500 No, a lot of music doesn't get put out.

02:29:34.060 What?

02:29:35.420 A vast majority of music doesn't get put out.

02:29:38.080 Are there some amazing songs out there that you think have been made that were not put,

02:29:42.540 have not been put out?

02:29:43.960 There's a lot of amazing, a lot of songs out there that I shouldn't think shouldn't have

02:29:47.400 been put out.

02:29:54.540 There's a lot of amazing songs I've heard in studios that never came out for sure.

02:29:58.100 Yeah.

02:29:58.280 Like hundreds, hundreds.

02:30:01.180 And they're honestly, it feels like a crime.

02:30:04.580 Honestly, it feels like a crime.

02:30:05.900 It's terrible when you hear them and you're like, Oh, I can't wait.

02:30:11.180 I can't wait for that to come out and people to hear it.

02:30:13.320 And yeah, because it's something happens, like promo doesn't work out.

02:30:18.160 Like someone, somebody like an A&R says, Oh, I'm not really sure about that one.

02:30:22.180 Or someone says to the artist, like what a friend of theirs says, Oh, I don't like that

02:30:25.940 one.

02:30:26.220 And it just turns them off it or they develop negative association with that song.

02:30:32.360 It's happened with me plenty of times.

02:30:33.720 I mean, I've got songs and my hard drive is thousands, thousands of songs that haven't

02:30:39.900 made the cut or they miss their moment.

02:30:44.860 You know, some songs just feel like a moment and it's like, if you don't put them out soon,

02:30:48.560 you're not, you just, you're not going to, uh, you're never going to feel like that again.

02:30:53.080 Or maybe sometimes like I didn't nail the vocal take.

02:30:56.900 I didn't fully, so I don't like the way I'm singing.

02:30:59.820 So I can't be bothered going back in and singing again.

02:31:02.140 So there's all these songs that the actual DNA of the song is good, but you can't be

02:31:09.320 bothered doing it again, going back into that place.

02:31:12.740 Yeah.

02:31:12.840 And you can't get back there.

02:31:14.200 It's kind of the value of a moment.

02:31:15.700 It's like, sometimes, you know, it's like, man, we were so close right there for that

02:31:20.040 moment.

02:31:20.360 Yeah.

02:31:20.780 And it's like, sometimes those things are batches of songs.

02:31:23.380 So like, there'll be a batch of songs that sounded like retrograde or there'll be a batch

02:31:28.500 of songs that sounded like say what you will, but say what you will was the best of that

02:31:31.660 batch and retrograde was the best of that batch.

02:31:33.860 So I put that out instead of lots of kind of kind of similar tone songs in a similar tone

02:31:42.260 that like weren't as good.

02:31:43.800 Did you ever get to work with like Willie Nelson or John Mayer?

02:31:46.680 Um, I've never worked with either of those.

02:31:50.820 No, I never have.

02:31:52.620 Um, but you know, never say never.

02:31:55.640 I mean, it's Willie Nelson is.

02:31:58.360 Willie Nelson is still alive.

02:31:59.440 Yeah.

02:31:59.940 Still.

02:32:00.240 No, is he making, is he making, is he making music and yeah, I think he is.

02:32:04.060 He has a daughter, I think Ray, our granddaughter, Ray Lynn Nelson, I think who also does music.

02:32:07.740 Oh, right.

02:32:08.120 Um, yeah.

02:32:10.360 Is there an artist that you feel like, I guess you, do you get pitched artists?

02:32:13.280 How does that work?

02:32:13.880 Do you pitch your, does your agent kind of pitch you to artists?

02:32:16.960 How does that kind of work?

02:32:18.100 That usually doesn't work out.

02:32:19.800 I've found if it's a, if there's an A&R connection or some kind of industry connection, it doesn't

02:32:24.580 really, you know, usually from me just getting in touch on Instagram and saying like, I love

02:32:31.360 your music or something like that.

02:32:33.120 Um, kind of like how, how we met, I mean, obviously we're not collaborating, although

02:32:37.680 this, you could call it a collaboration.

02:32:39.480 It's true.

02:32:40.180 Um, but you know, we just, like jam jam, jam's quite good at just reaching out.

02:32:47.180 I've sort of learned that from her.

02:32:48.480 She was like, you know, you can just reach out to people directly.

02:32:51.080 And I was like, she's great at connecting with people.

02:32:53.500 Yeah.

02:32:54.140 She's just got Simon Rex and he's great at connecting.

02:32:56.400 Yes.

02:32:57.000 Yes.

02:32:57.540 So that's like two great connectors is your, he's so good in that movie.

02:33:02.340 Uh, the one red rocket.

02:33:05.140 Yeah.

02:33:05.780 He's so good in that.

02:33:07.320 So ridiculous how they can make it.

02:33:10.380 Yeah.

02:33:10.940 At the beginning, you're like, Oh, this is my buddy Simon by the end.

02:33:13.200 You're like, Oh, this is this guy.

02:33:14.560 And I'm watching this journey.

02:33:15.520 He was brilliant.

02:33:16.700 He was so brilliant.

02:33:18.040 And he's been staying busy since then.

02:33:19.600 It's such a while.

02:33:20.740 What an amazing comeback.

02:33:22.040 I know.

02:33:22.680 Fantastic to watch.

02:33:23.680 Like I was so fucking happy to see that.

02:33:26.280 Yeah.

02:33:26.520 Hollywood's so interesting like that, you know?

02:33:28.520 Um, I mean, maybe come back to maybe the right word.

02:33:31.360 Sort of just like a re-entry into the, you know, the world.

02:33:35.620 He feels like that.

02:33:36.180 He'd moved out to the national park.

02:33:38.880 He was living in a national park.

02:33:40.380 And so that's really, you know, yeah, you're at the end of the line.

02:33:43.820 You're basically a bear.

02:33:45.000 When you're living in a national park, you're really, you're trying to, you know, you're

02:33:48.880 thinking probably about suicide.

02:33:50.280 You're not going to do it.

02:33:51.140 You know what I'm saying?

02:33:51.560 But there's enough hikes around to keep you safe.

02:33:54.800 Um, I'm just joking.

02:33:56.600 Simon knows that.

02:33:57.560 Uh, but he moved out to like Joshua tree and he was just kind of living his life.

02:34:01.580 And then this producer saw him on Instagram and said, you are perfect.

02:34:06.180 Yeah.

02:34:06.580 Cause he's like an incredible looking, hilarious person.

02:34:11.040 Yeah.

02:34:11.240 And good.

02:34:11.780 And he, and he's long and goo, you know, has goofy elements and like, um, but just the

02:34:17.920 biggest heart.

02:34:18.480 And so it was really awesome to get to see him like, and just to see his pride that he

02:34:23.660 felt like you want to, everybody wants to feel like they are capable maybe, or they matter.

02:34:32.820 Yeah.

02:34:33.840 Or that they, we all just want to feel a little bit of that.

02:34:37.500 Well, like we can just do the thing that we're good at in the limelight for just a moment.

02:34:43.180 Yeah.

02:34:43.400 And just be like, I did that.

02:34:44.720 And, you know, there's definitely a thing inside a lot of the people that's just sort

02:34:50.080 of screaming for that occasionally every so often.

02:34:53.620 And if you can, if you, if you happen to be in a position where you can like satisfy that

02:34:58.040 voice, it's a nice place to be because otherwise that can eat you up on it.

02:35:03.000 Like if you just can't ever vocalize it or you can't ever satisfy it.

02:35:07.620 Yeah.

02:35:07.800 And it can be satisfied even just in a relationship.

02:35:09.880 It could be satisfied by that one person that you're with, it could be satisfied by a parent

02:35:13.780 or a child.

02:35:14.760 It could be satisfied by a million people, you know, it could, it could need to be, it's

02:35:21.000 interesting.

02:35:21.440 It just has to land in that place that is set that you feel seen.

02:35:28.160 Yeah, totally.

02:35:29.600 Yeah.

02:35:29.900 So I, uh, and some people that only takes one person, you know, it takes a wife or a girlfriend

02:35:35.540 or boyfriend or a parent, just that's all it takes in there.

02:35:38.140 Or to be the biggest thing in someone's life, be the center of somebody's kind of universe.

02:35:44.880 Um, are you, um, with anyone at the moment?

02:35:49.760 Nope.

02:35:50.220 I started doing, I, I, I, I've been doing a little bit of just.

02:35:54.480 Me time.

02:35:55.420 Yeah.

02:35:56.120 I took 30 days off of dating so I could get an idea of what I was kind of doing.

02:36:00.560 Nice.

02:36:01.160 Cause you can get so sporadic.

02:36:02.620 Yeah.

02:36:02.960 You know, you're just here and there.

02:36:05.060 You go on a date.

02:36:05.520 You're like, do I even care about this?

02:36:06.740 What's going on?

02:36:07.540 And how's dating in Los Angeles?

02:36:09.140 Is that difficult?

02:36:10.340 It's been a little rocky.

02:36:11.620 Nashville has been even tougher kind of really, really.

02:36:14.260 Yeah.

02:36:14.400 Cause I don't go out that much.

02:36:15.680 And so it's been kind of a tough place to go, um, you know, to meet folks.

02:36:20.380 Do your interests line up with the people in LA or, or in Nashville more?

02:36:24.560 I think they're kind of the same.

02:36:25.760 I think it sort of depends.

02:36:26.760 I think you can kind of find the same type of people anywhere.

02:36:29.160 You know, I'm not like, I'm just kind of middle of the road.

02:36:34.000 I, you know, I think I'm trying to think of something that really turns me off about somebody.

02:36:39.760 Doing this in a restaurant.

02:36:41.520 Oh yeah.

02:36:42.020 They're done.

02:36:42.800 Done.

02:36:43.700 Probably.

02:36:44.500 You're out.

02:36:44.940 But if they, if they're attractive enough, you might, I would, I'd probably still order dessert with them, you know, so I'd mill around a bit.

02:36:55.120 So if they did that through start a main course and dessert, and they're just pulling the weight over like that.

02:37:00.620 Unless they were like setting up pentameter for some dope ass beat that I didn't know was coming, you know, or it was like a flash mob or something that never started.

02:37:08.640 They're just like, Hey guys, they think it's going to happen as long as they just keep.

02:37:13.480 So, um, have you gotten invited to go play at like some weird private events or something that was really interesting?

02:37:18.860 You're like, okay, this seems strange or not strange.

02:37:21.740 I've done some core, I've done a couple of corporate things that I ended up not doing anymore after that because I just felt, you know, a couple of fashion events and things where very Zoolander type stuff.

02:37:32.680 Yeah.

02:37:33.420 You know, um, but no, I don't, I, you know, I haven't had the, like, I haven't had the sort of, um,

02:37:47.260 Surreal experience.

02:37:48.360 Yeah.

02:37:48.760 Yeah.

02:37:48.980 I haven't really had that in music.

02:37:50.460 Like some crazy thing where they invite you to like a big bean conference or something.

02:37:54.160 Everybody's losing their mind or something.

02:37:55.740 No.

02:37:56.220 Yeah.

02:37:57.120 Um, but, and if, and the things I have done that were a bit weird, I think I'm under contract to not, to not talk about the thing.

02:38:08.880 When I say a bit weird, I mean like, yeah, like, um, like maybe,

02:38:15.340 maybe it's not the kind of gig that like, it was a shit gig.

02:38:21.980 Oh yeah.

02:38:22.580 It's like a really shit gig.

02:38:24.160 Yeah.

02:38:24.540 And there's, and I was like, okay, let's not have any videos of that one.

02:38:28.540 Well, thanks for all your contributions, man.

02:38:33.840 I'm glad that, um, we get to spend some time together, you know?

02:38:37.680 Yeah.

02:38:37.980 I mean, and I'd love to, you know, this is, I've never done this sort of, I've never been part of the podcasting universe particularly.

02:38:46.360 Yeah, it's cool.

02:38:47.420 It's, it's great.

02:38:48.260 I'm really glad we got to, that I'm really glad that you, that you, that you came on.

02:38:53.240 Well, it felt like, like walking through the screen in a way, walking into this, uh, this thing.

02:38:57.780 Oh, interesting.

02:38:58.240 It was like just jumping through YouTube.

02:39:00.060 Cause I've watched your podcast so many times.

02:39:02.680 Yeah.

02:39:03.220 Uh, do a lot of people say that?

02:39:05.020 What?

02:39:05.360 That you've watched it?

02:39:06.160 No, that you, well, they've just, they've been of, you know, they've watched your shit for so long that they're just like in the seat where other people are sitting.

02:39:13.300 Oh yeah.

02:39:13.780 I think it's kind of fascinating to people.

02:39:15.340 I think people don't know what to think sometimes.

02:39:17.260 I think they're a little bit shocked at just how the production works and then suddenly you're there.

02:39:23.120 It is interesting how it goes from just us sitting here talking into like a conversation that people could listen to or segments of a conversation.

02:39:31.180 You know?

02:39:31.880 I mean, we probably, like, I feel like our conversations are pretty wide reaching anyway.

02:39:38.640 Yeah.

02:39:38.900 I think so.

02:39:39.360 This reminded me, I think a lot of like why I always have enjoyed chatting with you, you know?

02:39:44.680 Yeah, me too, man.

02:39:45.880 Yeah.

02:39:47.280 What would you say that you think to like, I know this is kind of a general thing, but it's like, if there's somebody who's having trouble expressing themselves or figuring out how to do that, what suggestion do you think you would give to somebody like that?

02:40:01.020 Well, um, I'd say try a few different things.

02:40:09.240 Um, and if you express yourself to someone and they kind of like lightly punish you for doing it, uh, whether that's rejecting you or whatever it is, then maybe they're just not the right person to do that with.

02:40:26.200 But there will be someone who will like your music, take you.

02:40:31.580 Yeah.

02:40:32.120 Yeah.

02:40:32.600 Like your music or they'll, or like, they'll take you as you are basically as a person.

02:40:37.620 Um, yeah.

02:40:38.520 It's so much.

02:40:39.060 We spend so much of our time trying to adjust our song to fit the audience instead of finding the person that hears it, you know?

02:40:46.000 Yeah.

02:40:46.300 And to be, I think true confidence is, is just being confident that, sorry, using it twice, but true confidence is, is being in a situation and just knowing that you'd be okay if that person didn't like what you said or didn't like, you know, kind of rejected you or whatever.

02:41:07.740 And I, that's hard to get to even, even now I've on that pretty difficult.

02:41:11.900 Um, but, uh, and in so many ways I've, I've edited myself to death, like to, to, to be okay for everyone else's consumption.

02:41:20.960 But I think to some extent it's like kind of saying what's in on your mind anyway and come what may, because ultimately.

02:41:37.740 The fastest way to find out if you're in the right situation is to be yourself and, uh, you can spend many years doing the opposite, not being yourself and hoping that people will accept you.

02:41:52.700 Uh, and ultimately you're just treading water.

02:41:55.160 You're never gonna, you're never gonna fully swim.

02:41:57.240 Um, you'll, you'll only, you'll never scratch the full itch of, of, uh, you, you and, and friendship and love and real connection because you've never been your true self.

02:42:13.940 And being willing to let things go by.

02:42:16.960 Yeah.

02:42:17.320 It's hard.

02:42:18.040 Relationships, friends, like all sorts of things, like things that may not, yeah.

02:42:21.940 Being willing to say, this isn't it right now.

02:42:24.120 This isn't, you know, I've struggled with that with dating and stuff to be like, I'm just afraid to let go because what it, you know, it's just such a reaction.

02:42:32.060 You know, what if some part of me, there's a subconscious part of me that's what if there's nothing else, you know?

02:42:37.180 Yeah.

02:42:37.440 Is there like, have you met people where you've, you've kind of felt like now the idea of them not being there is too scary to actually leave the situation, even though it's probably not right.

02:42:48.760 Oh, I think it's happened to me before in the past for sure.

02:42:50.960 You know, I think taking some time from dating and stuff helps me get a better view of that and see it, you know?

02:42:58.500 What are the apps?

02:43:00.000 I mean, I've been in a relationship for eight years.

02:43:01.760 What are the apps now?

02:43:02.580 Yeah.

02:43:02.760 What do you use?

02:43:03.020 I just got on, I just created a profile on Raya, but I haven't opened it up.

02:43:06.740 I haven't started it.

02:43:07.580 Oh, right.

02:43:07.980 So I'm not sure if I want to, I'm kind of like, it's been like a month now that I've had it.

02:43:12.500 And I just don't know if I, I just don't know how much I want to be spending my time trying to manage that.

02:43:22.260 And then how much do I want to just kind of let it happen?

02:43:25.700 Totally.

02:43:26.440 And also when your job, I mean, I guess you meet a lot of people in your job.

02:43:31.400 Yeah.

02:43:31.540 You meet a decent amount.

02:43:32.760 A lot of them is men.

02:43:34.040 That's, that's true.

02:43:34.940 Although you could, you could change that, I guess.

02:43:37.460 You could just start inviting more people.

02:43:39.060 You might find more like minds, um, in, in, in the, in the female space.

02:43:44.260 Yeah.

02:43:44.620 I might have to get, I can get a couple more dames around, you know, wouldn't be a bad idea.

02:43:48.280 But the, I remember being on in my, in my year, I think between two relationships being single and having a Raya account.

02:43:56.700 And the one of the, I was like scrolling and the, one of the interests someone put was coconut oil and I just closed the app and deleted it.

02:44:07.960 And then there's no one back.

02:44:12.380 That's, uh.

02:44:13.120 It just seems too surface level.

02:44:14.700 Yeah, I think so.

02:44:18.620 Um, James Blake, man.

02:44:20.200 Thank you so much for spending time, brother.

02:44:22.000 Yeah, man.

02:44:22.380 My, my pleasure.

02:44:23.260 It's so nice to be here and thanks for having me.

02:44:25.680 You know, I'm a fan as well as a friend, but I just, uh, I love what you do and it's great to actually see the place.

02:44:34.280 Yeah.

02:44:34.640 Welcome to inside of the internet, man.

02:44:36.120 Uh, yeah.

02:44:37.140 Yeah.

02:44:37.460 Thank you, man.

02:44:38.000 Thank you for all your wonderful music.

02:44:39.200 And, um, is there music that people can like, you know, it's such a generic question, but

02:44:43.440 yo, is there, you're going to keep making music.

02:44:46.860 That's the plan.

02:44:47.780 Okay.

02:44:48.140 I'm going to keep making it.

02:44:50.400 Um, the next thing I think is going to be more of a, more of a dance orientated slash more

02:44:55.060 electronicky type thing.

02:44:56.440 Um, which I've just, um, yeah, I'm in the process of finishing, but who knows how long that

02:45:03.240 kind of thing takes so, but I'm also, I'm, I've got a club night that I'm, I'm doing at

02:45:08.120 the moment called CMYK, uh, in partnership with Rhonda, uh, a club named Rhonda, um, Rhonda

02:45:15.080 presents CMYK.

02:45:16.300 And that's my, uh, club night that I've been doing around the country.

02:45:19.340 And so if anyone wants to come and see me DJ and I'm playing a lot of my new music there,

02:45:24.860 um, then they can come and see that.

02:45:27.480 Groovy, man.

02:45:27.920 We'll put the link in the, uh, in description.

02:45:30.120 Um, thanks so much, man.

02:45:31.460 Great to see you.

02:45:32.060 Yeah, man.

02:45:32.660 Loads of love.

02:45:33.260 Cheers, brother.

02:45:33.820 Back at you.

02:45:34.240 Cheers.

02:45:34.440 Ladies and gentlemen, I'm Jonathan Kite and welcome to Kite Club.

02:46:03.940 A podcast where I'll be sharing thoughts on things like current events, standup stories,

02:46:08.960 and seven ways to pleasure your partner.

02:46:11.700 The answer may shock you.

02:46:13.440 Sometimes I'll interview my friends.

02:46:15.500 Sometimes I won't.

02:46:17.180 And as always, I'll be joined by the voices in my head.

02:46:20.120 You have three new voice messages.

02:46:23.080 A lot of people are talking about Kite Club.

02:46:26.020 I've been talking about Kite Club for so long, longer than anybody else.

02:46:30.320 So great.

02:46:30.940 Hey, sweetheart, here's a deal.

02:46:34.620 Anyone who doesn't listen to Kite Club is a dodgy bloody wanker.

02:46:38.600 Do you know what I mean?

02:46:39.600 Oh, hi.

02:46:40.760 I'll take a quarter pounder with cheese and a McFlurry.

02:46:43.680 Sorry, sir, but our ice cream machine is broken.

02:46:45.780 Oh, no.

02:46:47.220 I think Tom Hanks just butt dialed me.

02:46:50.320 Anyway, first rule of Kite Club is, tell everyone about Kite Club.

02:46:54.640 Second rule of Kite Club is, tell everyone about Kite Club.

02:46:58.880 Third rule, like and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or watch us on YouTube, yeah?

02:47:04.660 And yes, don't worry, my Brad Pitt impression will get better.

This Past Weekend with Theo Von - January 03, 2023

E424 James Blake

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