This Past Weekend with Theo Von - E462 John Vervaeke

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00:00:56.320 for plan features and network management details all right i have some new tour dates to let you know

00:01:02.400 about i'll be in norfolk va virginia on november 9 i'll be roanoke va november 10 huntington west

00:01:11.760 virginia november 11th over there at the mountain health arena formerly known as the big sandy

00:01:17.760 i'll be in evansville indiana on november 1 5 at the ford center and winston salem north carolina

00:01:26.800 november 17th as well as new orleans louisiana on november 24th at the uno lakefront arena all tickets

00:01:35.600 are available at theovon.com slash t-o-u-r um we have been moving into some bigger venues really grateful for

00:01:45.440 it um and we'll do a mix of bigger and smaller ones at the time and um just because we don't

00:01:53.280 want to be on tour forever you know we want to be on tour for a while we just don't want to be on

00:01:58.800 you know until we're deceased or whatever so thank you guys for your support theovon.com

00:02:05.120 slash t-o-u-r and if tickets are too high priced just wait we'll come back through sometime gang

00:02:11.920 dr john verveke is a professor of psychology at the university of toronto he currently teaches

00:02:19.760 courses on thinking and reasoning with a focus on cognitive development intelligence mindfulness

00:02:27.680 and the psychology of wisdom he is a smarter guy he's an information man you know he's also an expert

00:02:36.160 in buddhist psychology he has a 50-part lecture series on youtube called awakening from the meaning

00:02:43.920 crisis i've personally been thinking a lot about meaning and what it what just meaning of life meaning

00:02:51.520 of self um things like that you know we had a call about it on the last solo episode and and uh and

00:02:59.040 that's one of the things that uh dr verveke is is um is highly informed about so we're gonna spend

00:03:06.320 some time today with him and uh delve into that and some other things i'm very grateful uh that he's

00:03:12.720 here today today today today's guest is dr john verveke

00:03:16.400 shine that light on me

00:03:22.720 i'll sit and tell you my stories

00:03:27.600 shine on me

00:03:32.160 and i will find a song

00:03:35.200 i've been singing

00:03:42.720 uh john verveke thank you so much for being here it's great pleasure steven yeah it's really

00:03:48.480 exciting man um a lot of my friends have been uh turned on to you and just like your ability to like

00:03:55.120 share your thoughts like in a concise and and informative enough way where i guess people are

00:04:01.360 able to absorb them and they don't sound too monotonous where it sounds too much like you're studying kind

00:04:06.960 of yeah you know well i mean i i really uh well i'm i really believe in i don't just believe i

00:04:14.720 really believe in the work i'm doing it's it's like it's a calling for me um and so um and it's

00:04:21.600 something that i live and i i part of i mean i've been a teacher for a very long time and i think part of

00:04:29.280 being a good teacher is to always be yourself learning and so i try to teach by sharing the enthusiasm

00:04:36.000 of the learning i'm going through like even when i'm doing a lecture i'll learn something will come

00:04:40.800 up and that moment will jazz me and that's that's the style i've tried to develop and it seems to work

00:04:48.000 at least for the material i've been privileged to get to teach yeah yeah yeah and you teach all i

00:04:52.960 guess i mean a lot of people like i guess that a lot of things that i get shared for about yours are

00:04:57.280 about meaning and looking into meaning yes and especially at a time where it feels like people are

00:05:04.000 are or for me even i mean it feels like we're getting into this cul-de-sac in america where it's

00:05:11.040 like is there a lot of value to my life do i am i just a cog in the wheel am i just a consumer

00:05:18.720 is there any you know what is the purpose for me i think a lot of people are starting to ask themselves

00:05:24.480 that yeah yeah i call that the meaning crisis and i think there's good evidence that it's becoming

00:05:33.920 very prevalent in the west whatever that means these days but you know sort of north america europe you

00:05:40.400 know yeah uh japan hawaii yeah australia you know things like that um and the symptoms are you can

00:05:49.520 sort of see symptoms of it um all through the culture and um and i've also seen a significant

00:05:58.080 increase um in in the work i'm doing both academically and in the public sphere uh especially

00:06:06.320 since covet covet really ramped a lot of these issues up for people in a powerful way what the

00:06:12.560 what the issues of like questioning themselves what's going on yeah so the thing the thing one of the

00:06:18.160 interesting things that uh covet did is it threw people back onto their inner life um and what's

00:06:25.600 interesting is our culture especially north american culture um right and i'm not the first to observe

00:06:31.600 it you know it has a hyperponderance of a tendency towards narcissism being very like you know so people

00:06:38.000 have oriented their lives in a very self-centered way but and but they thought that right or they can

00:06:44.560 maybe a better way of putting it they confuse that with having deep rich inner resources and when

00:06:51.680 everything sort of stopped and they couldn't focus the world on them and they had to focus on themselves

00:06:57.600 in order to find resources and what you found was a bifurcation like a division uh some people were

00:07:03.920 like whoa that like that really threw them um so i i'll say i'll say something to you and i i'm of two

00:07:12.000 two minds of it because i'm happy about it as a scientist because i made a prediction

00:07:15.520 and i'm sad about it as a human being because it's not a good prediction um so just as the pandemic

00:07:21.120 was hitting i said what you're going to get is you're going to get a rise in a term that julian

00:07:26.880 evans made famous called conspirituality this mixture of conspiracy theories and spirituality and

00:07:33.520 that took off and then i said as we come out of the pandemic we'll get a mental health spike and then

00:07:38.880 a little bit later sort of an increase in crime and all of these things are coming to pass because

00:07:44.240 what had happened is many people are thrown into the interior life only to realize for all of the

00:07:50.480 self-centeredness they've actually not given any wise attention to their inner life

00:07:55.520 and they were suddenly without resources other people saw this as a an opportunity and they framed

00:08:03.280 it that way and so what's been springing up where all of these online communities where people

00:08:10.320 not to sound too highfalutin or anything but people started to say you know i really want to cultivate

00:08:16.080 wisdom i mean there's tons of information there's a lot of bullshit mixed up with it there's you know

00:08:20.640 there's all this stuff and then there's science and that but i want wisdom and so and i get and i've

00:08:26.080 gotten involved with quite a few of these communities so that was that was there's there's both you have

00:08:31.520 both negative and positive symptoms in the culture uh like you know um the number of close friends

00:08:37.760 people have is reliably declining even for all of our social internet connections uh loneliness is

00:08:45.040 becoming epidemic and loneliness is like it's very unhealthy we are we are we are naturally social

00:08:54.320 cultural beings and loneliness is well it's becoming a hobby too for some people in a way it's becoming

00:08:59.840 almost so common that it's like um or not common but it's well i guess common i guess and once you

00:09:07.520 start to become something you there's a part of you that will want to find the most organized way to be

00:09:12.720 it and to engage in it yes so even in loneliness it's almost becoming a culture you know it is but

00:09:18.560 it's a culture with great cost uh i mean we have weird things happening like the uk has set up a

00:09:25.120 ministry of loneliness which sounds like something out of orwell right like the ministry of loneliness

00:09:29.520 yeah and it's like whoa how did we get there yeah it sounds like an ozzy osbourne album oh yeah

00:09:35.120 maybe yeah yeah yeah yeah i wonder how he would say that

00:09:44.880 i don't know he might he probably would get one of his kids i don't even know if he can talk anymore

00:09:49.840 but um but yeah well so so to go back so you're looking at so when you look at

00:09:56.240 like so covid you're saying had a was an opportunity or caused a lot of us to like

00:10:02.160 interflect yes look inside of ourselves yes yes okay and some people did it like in a healthy way

00:10:08.720 yes where they kind of looked inside of themselves were like wow i haven't looked in here in a while

00:10:12.560 i'm going to find ways to challenge myself and see what's going on here i'm going to join other groups

00:10:17.440 groups and uh people that are curious about um their inner self yes and then other p and then

00:10:24.720 what the other group what happened well i mean they a lot of them sort of fell into the things that

00:10:32.480 were already at work in the culture the meaning crisis predates covid by like centuries um but um

00:10:40.480 you know you saw a rise in mental health issues uh so depression and anxiety have gone up and they have

00:10:46.080 continued to increase um and this is quite independent of how affluent uh so silicon valley

00:10:54.000 has a tremendous problem with depression and anxiety here are the people who are supposed to be at the

00:10:58.560 pinnacle of our society you know we split we idolize them right and yet their their their their

00:11:04.800 their kids are in trouble and they're in trouble in certain ways have we always throughout time have

00:11:09.520 people always searched for meaning in their life yes always been like um are we at like a

00:11:16.480 because we were like you're saying that kobe kind of put us in this place where

00:11:20.240 it kind of put us in a fast forward of people really started to look at that because the the

00:11:25.840 fabric of society kind of stopped and paused and so you're left with yourself really yeah um but

00:11:31.760 people have always looked for meaning that's exactly right i mean so in the series i did and in the book

00:11:37.920 on on zombies the book is in the book is the idea that zombies are a myth that arose to try and give

00:11:44.560 like give people an image of the meaninglessness in their lives uh but uh we talked about two kinds

00:11:51.440 of issues one are what we call like perennial problems like you said there's issues that human

00:11:55.920 beings always have confronted and we can get into why that might be the case um and then there's also

00:12:01.680 historical factors that are now have been growing since the late middle ages and accelerating and things

00:12:08.000 have you know there's been a lot of major things uh that are accelerants on those historical forces

00:12:15.280 and what happens is the historical forces sort of undermine the like you said the cultural fabric

00:12:23.360 that normally helps people to address the perennial problems and then what happens is you get a vicious

00:12:28.240 cycle the perennial problems get worse the social fabric tears more the perennial problems get and

00:12:33.360 you start to spiral and that's where it feels like kind of like we're at yes yes that's that's and and

00:12:39.200 and that's that's amazing so when when i i didn't i didn't like how did the awakening from the meaning

00:12:46.320 crisis came up was actually a former student of mine took a class with me and said you should turn this

00:12:50.080 into a youtube series and the awakening for the meaning crisis is your youtube series yeah i have two

00:12:54.160 major youtube series i have awakening from the meaning crisis which is about what we're talking about

00:12:58.240 and then there's after socrates which is an attempt to do an in-depth um reconstruction um reverse

00:13:08.000 engineering of a socratic way of life um as a way of cultivating wisdom both individually and collectively

00:13:14.880 what does that mean a socratic way of life we're not going to know what that means right so the

00:13:19.760 unexamined life is worth living so this is a socratic quote he says this on at his trial uh and they

00:13:26.480 basically say to him uh stop doing philosophy we'll let you go and he's uh or or if not we'll kill

00:13:34.080 you right oh wow and he says uh well the unexamined life is not worth living i'd rather die and so

00:13:43.040 socrates socrates is very very interesting um he has he has two sort of influences one influence he's

00:13:50.320 influenced by the sort of the first scientists that are emerging in ancient greece he takes a look at

00:13:55.200 the natural science and it's a it's a breakthrough like as opposed to a mythological way of thinking

00:13:59.840 these early thinkers are using observation and reason to try and understand the world he thinks

00:14:03.920 that's powerful but he finds that the site and this is relevant for us he finds that the scientific

00:14:09.440 information isn't existentially relevant it doesn't lead to personal transformation it doesn't tell him

00:14:14.640 how to become a better person so it gives him a lot of information and it makes him understand things

00:14:19.440 but it's not helping him as a person as a in his soul and you see and that's what how a lot of

00:14:24.800 people feel about our scientific world view we have a scientific world view that explains everything

00:14:29.600 except how we generate science and how we have live live how we should live meaningful lives within

00:14:35.120 that world view so socrates says that's not good enough the truth seeking is good but it's it's not

00:14:39.840 giving me any relevance and then there's the sophists and that that literally means sort of the wise

00:14:44.880 guys and these are the people that invent rhetoric you know the first sort of um first good use of

00:14:51.440 bullshit in in a technical sense in harry frankfurt's sense you know the liar tries to manipulate you

00:14:57.600 because you care about the truth and they try to convince you that something is truth but the

00:15:01.360 bullshit artist does something different they try to get you unconcerned about whether or not

00:15:05.120 something is the truth and just caught up in how catchy it is advertising all advertising works this

00:15:10.480 way you know you watch you you watch the alcohol commercial right here's a bar and somebody gets

00:15:15.680 a drink and there's gorgeous people and happy music and everybody's well dressed and smiling go into

00:15:20.800 a bar right that's not that's not and we all know it's false it's not the same in there no but

00:15:27.360 it's catchy it triggers all kind you know sexuality and vibrancy and sociality yeah possibility yeah and all

00:15:35.520 that and it's so it gets very catchy and you don't care about the truth and you get caught up in how

00:15:40.080 catchy it is and this is and this is what the sophists discovered they had they knew they they

00:15:45.280 learned how to make things catchy so they would really go deep into people and change them now

00:15:49.920 they did it in a manipulative fashion now socrates said well they're the opposite they're giving me lots

00:15:55.520 of relevance transformative power but no truth and what he did is basically said i want the two together

00:16:01.200 i want transformative truths i want to i want to go on a quest to find those truths that catch wow he was

00:16:09.920 like a gangster huh yeah he was well he's a hero he's a hero to me yeah well it sounds i guess what

00:16:15.840 i'm saying it sounds like he was like a john wayne of like let's do we're gonna do this a new way and

00:16:21.920 this is the way that it needs to be it just sounds like he was a real pioneer kind of he is i mean it's

00:16:26.880 called the socratic revolution i mean he's an astonishing individual uh like he he was extremely brave

00:16:33.040 he had a reputation like he was a soldier um and at several times in battle he showed tremendous

00:16:39.680 courage and presence of mind when everybody else is panicking he could he could stand in one place

00:16:47.920 like in like in profound meditation for like 24 48 hours uh he uh he was he was his life was threatened

00:16:57.040 several times and he never sort of capitulated to uh to the forces um he was brave he's brave um

00:17:07.120 he he i mean he he creative it sounds like yeah and he's and he he invented this way of interacting

00:17:14.240 with people um he would ask them questions and he would try try and draw out um like what he compared

00:17:23.680 himself to a midwife i help i help people to give birth to themselves and so he he wasn't he wasn't

00:17:30.320 like he would often show people that their their claims to being wise or to knowledge didn't work he

00:17:38.640 would get them into this state that people said it was like being stung by uh like uh by by a stingray

00:17:44.240 or a spell cast on you you'd get into this state and he did this for a particular reason so the the

00:17:49.600 athenians had oracles like the oracle at delphi have you ever been to delphi i know oh i don't

00:17:54.400 think so i have is it um nope i haven't it puts the zap on you man really yeah yeah like it like

00:18:00.880 you stand in front of the omphalus the navel of the world and and this this chasm drops away and

00:18:06.240 and then this in front of you and this mountain goes up and you know and this woman she would sit

00:18:10.720 in a cave and there's some speculation that she was getting intoxicated and then she would she would

00:18:15.760 speak and answer people's questions now when you're an oracle right if you want to stay in

00:18:20.000 business as an oracle you don't give really clear answers to people like right right because you

00:18:24.080 need them to come back you need them to come back so you know you know should i marry cassandra well

00:18:28.720 sometimes the squirrels don't gather nuts yeah okay so what there was so a friend of socrates went

00:18:37.360 to the oracle and i i always i have no basis for saying that but i always picture them sort of like

00:18:42.560 sort of smirking and nudging each other we're going to ask this really cool question right

00:18:47.840 ready and so she goes up and they go up and they and they and they they say to her is is there

00:18:53.200 anyone wiser than socrates and they're expecting this really cryptic and and she said no no human

00:18:59.760 being is wiser than socrates straight answer wow so that she went back so he went back and they they

00:19:06.720 tell socrates now you and i were honest if they said we got that message from the gods we go yeah yeah

00:19:12.480 i always knew it right i always knew he does he does this other thing and this tells you how

00:19:16.800 socratic he is he says well the gods can't lie that's but by the way that's one way and he's

00:19:22.320 revolutionary the gods aren't like the ancient gods just superheroes the gods are like moral exemplars

00:19:28.240 for socrates so they can't lie but he also says but i know i'm not wise how can those both be true

00:19:34.960 and he turns it into this quest so he goes and he keeps asking people right so somebody claims to know

00:19:42.000 something or they they know what a particular virtue is they know what courage is and he'll ask like

00:19:45.840 two generals and they'll and they'll and he'll he'll constantly question them and it's and he's

00:19:50.320 trying to draw it out and he's trying to find out and what typically happens is the the this what's

00:19:56.720 called a dialogue plato wrote it ends with no clear answer no clear definition but socrates isn't

00:20:02.000 a skeptic so the the um so so he so he doesn't get a clear answer but he that's okay the goal isn't

00:20:08.560 is the goal to get a clear answer just to create conversation beyond that see the goal is to get

00:20:14.480 people to take up his quest ah see so if you look at so he's talking to these two generals and the

00:20:20.320 two generals about courage one of them does the i just know he just speaks from his intuition and

00:20:24.880 socrates destroys that with shows him the contradictions the problem the other quotes so

00:20:29.600 the first person speaks from like a first person perspective well i just know

00:20:33.520 and socrates destroys that and the other person peaks you know speaks from this third person well

00:20:40.160 here's a technical definition i got from the sophists and blah blah blah yeah yeah and and

00:20:44.720 socrates destroys that and then there's and socrates can't offer definition and you think what was this

00:20:50.880 all for but you have to see in a dialogue you have to pay attention to the drama not just the argument

00:20:56.640 because what the two generals say is we want our sons to come and spend time with you and live with

00:21:01.440 you socrates because our sons are going to get courage from you socrates can't explain he can't

00:21:08.560 define courage courage courage if you think you can put courage into a definition you don't get it

00:21:14.240 right you have to get into this not the first person this or the third person this second person you

00:21:18.720 us together right you catch it but it has but it's a it's just caught truth remember we were talking

00:21:23.360 about and what happens is socrates exemplifies ah what it is and he he he lives it in

00:21:31.280 conversation with people so that they start to catch that orientation and catches quest wow

00:21:38.560 and was that a new thing at the time to have that sort of energy to have that like

00:21:43.360 for people to really start to question things like that so as far as we can tell in this way it's

00:21:48.320 called the socratic revolution and there doesn't seem to be any of the ancient sources that contradict

00:21:53.040 this socrates and socrates invents discovers we don't have to there's a latin word that's much better

00:21:59.120 inventio it means to discover or or invent right he he inventios right this way of helping people to

00:22:07.760 give birth to themselves so so the people i work with we've we've tried to reverse engineer this

00:22:14.560 practice we call it dialectic into dialogos we have workshops that sort of get people to take this

00:22:19.840 up and and so what we do is we'll have them do these practices around a virtue like courage

00:22:25.680 more honesty authenticity and it's and we and and what happens is they they and we tell them this

00:22:34.560 but they also realize it right you're not the point isn't to be right about this the point is to come

00:22:40.640 into right relationship with the virtue and that's what happens when they do these practices people come

00:22:44.960 out and go i'm kind of experiencing something like ah and a love for i thought i always knew what

00:22:51.280 honesty was like the technical definition or the intuition like the two generals but but now i i

00:22:56.800 don't but i like i'm like socrates so you get this right orientation and now we go back to socrates

00:23:04.960 because he finally resolved that paradox that he had from the gods he realized that he was wise in

00:23:11.920 that he knew when he did not know something but not in the shallow sense that i you know i don't know

00:23:17.120 about albanian tin production or something like that but in this sense we're talking about was it

00:23:21.120 which is like i really don't know what honesty is i have a i have a love for it and i'm oriented i want

00:23:27.200 to be in the right relationship i want to open myself up i want to learn more about it football is back in

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00:25:29.280 when it comes to like searching for like meaning right like as a person you know do we do it is it

00:25:36.560 something that we do as individuals like are we do do is there any value in finding meaning as an

00:25:43.920 individual it feels like to me sometimes more like the value is finding meaning as like a species or

00:25:49.760 like a group right like i guess when i think about meaning i don't think like what is my what is the

00:25:56.400 meaning for me what is the purpose of my life i i find my brain often thinks more like what is our

00:26:02.240 purpose right what is our meaning um so that the individual pole is you need to cultivate wisdom

00:26:13.440 but what's the collective pull and you put your finger on it so what is this meaning thing so a lot

00:26:19.840 if you do research on it there's four dimensions to it uh and the one that people think it's synonymous

00:26:26.240 with is having a purpose that's only one of the dimension it's actually not the most important one of the

00:26:30.640 dimensions of meaning yeah meaning in life so we're not talking about like the meaning of a sentence

00:26:34.720 we're talking about what makes your life worth living even though it has all the frustrations

00:26:40.160 and failures and faults and flaws in it right because i think especially you get to like a

00:26:44.560 middle of your life kind of or ballpark you know and you start that really starts to hit home you're

00:26:49.120 like oh well my youth is disappearing yeah what is the what is my purpose here and then is it the purpose

00:26:55.920 of just me or am i part of a group and we have a purpose those are the questions yeah that i really

00:27:01.600 kind of right see us getting hit with a lot so purpose is important but there's other factors uh

00:27:08.560 one was it was in the literature was called coherence but some of the original experiments

00:27:12.560 have failed to replicate and so it's a broader notion it's more like your world has to make sense to

00:27:17.440 you it can't be absurd right because if the world becomes absurd then then you start to really feel that

00:27:23.520 reality is meaningless well that's starting that's another thing that's starting to happen i mean

00:27:27.040 we can go into that yeah we can we can and that's very different people can

00:27:31.040 people can act on purpose uh even within an absurd world well a lot of my meaning i've noticed like

00:27:37.920 recently like it seemed like um recently it seemed a lot like uh the the texture or the fabric

00:27:46.640 of society is kind of eroding in america right like a lot of traditions are being yeah yeah

00:27:52.640 said that they're no good we're like um trying to renegotiate our past to make it look a certain

00:27:59.120 way um everything's in question yeah a lot of things are in question a lot of tradition people

00:28:04.560 are saying that's even like the pledge of allegiance for just things that gave us all commonality

00:28:10.480 seem to be um disappearing right yeah and so i realized that that started to hurt me because i was

00:28:17.120 like man a lot of my meaning as a person yes i had attached to excellent a lot of these commonalities

00:28:23.680 and i didn't realize that until they started to go away i'm like well if this stuff doesn't mean anything

00:28:28.640 like then do i mean anything okay so notice that notice that so there's two that's the two missing

00:28:33.760 dimensions one is people right and one is they they their reality can't be flat it has to have a depth

00:28:42.800 they have to they have to be able to point to something to say this is really real right if

00:28:48.320 you like if everything feels sort of illusory then you're also in a kind of a nightmare situation right

00:28:53.520 but the one you just pointed to this is the crucial one and this is the one and i'm going to pun a

00:28:56.880 little bit here this is the one that matters it's called mattering this is the one that matters the

00:29:00.080 most and mattering is this you there's a really good book by susan wolf called meaning in life and

00:29:08.240 why it matters um and you know when you what the metaphor people use is i want to feel connected

00:29:14.320 to something larger than myself something bigger than myself and here's a way of seeing if you have

00:29:19.600 this in your life and why it might have come into question like you were just talking about ask yourself

00:29:24.560 what do you want to exist even if you don't and how much of a difference do you make to it now

00:29:31.520 okay so take me through an example of that so let me think what do i want to exist even if you don't

00:29:36.400 even if i don't exist yeah um probably families yeah so these are people you want them to exist

00:29:43.920 even if you don't yeah yeah like happy children happy families maybe would be something i would say

00:29:49.760 and do you think you make much of a difference to them right now not a ton right so you need a good

00:29:55.280 answer for both of those to have a strong sense of meaning in life okay so take me through an example

00:30:01.520 of somebody that would have a good like that what would be an answer that would probably leave

00:30:04.960 somebody feeling fulfilled after they ask themselves those questions well i want to i want to point to

00:30:09.360 something that you put your finger on uh there's a decline in the bigger picture of world view um

00:30:18.240 and it off the world views that we we experience them and i'm trying to use this term very broadly

00:30:24.160 religiously so i don't mean just like christianity or judaism or something like that but i also mean

00:30:30.960 what used to be called american civil religion like you have their heroes and things are sacred

00:30:35.920 like the flag and you pledge allegiance which is a kind of prayer right and so and both of those

00:30:42.400 religious frameworks and even though they're tearing each other apart about it right now they're falling

00:30:47.280 right and so people used to say they would die for their country people did it in world war ii they right

00:30:55.440 they want the u.s the united states to continue existing they think the universe is a better place

00:31:01.680 if the u.s is in it and they are making a difference they're in like they're in germany and they're

00:31:08.080 liberating the world from tyranny and so they're making a real difference right to this overarching

00:31:15.440 worldview american democracy americanism they had meaning so much meaning in life like socrates they're

00:31:23.760 willing to die for it i mean they must have i mean to think like yes i'm gonna i mean they had people

00:31:28.880 that were lying to get into the draft yes like i want to go serve my country i will die for my

00:31:36.080 country they believe that much in it it feels like we're further from that now for sure so that the

00:31:42.800 idea of your country being that thing is probably less right so that's the other poll now remember we

00:31:49.600 talked about the individual poll then there's the world view the the right the the poll that we

00:31:55.520 no one you didn't invent english did i right it's these are the things we invent together and we

00:32:01.200 evolve together and we participate in together and one is like there was a great metaphor by

00:32:07.200 an academic called peter berger he called it the sacred canopy where you had this world view that

00:32:13.200 basically gave you uh it told you how to be an agent in the world and it it made the world a

00:32:20.640 meaningful arena so there was an agent arena relationship and they were attuned to each other

00:32:25.120 so you knew what to do you knew how to fit in and and so you had this world view that grounded things

00:32:32.400 and this is the bigger picture and then people could could connect their personal

00:32:39.760 wisdom cultivation to this bigger thing and enhance their meaning in life and this is what

00:32:44.480 religions both civil and you know uh religious sorry we don't have we need another sacred i suppose

00:32:52.080 civil and sacred religions they were both doing for people and these have been breaking down right

00:32:57.600 for a whole so those are the historical factors and when they break down people's ability to find

00:33:03.440 purpose and depth and clarity and mattering gets undermined and their self-deception exacerbates

00:33:13.360 because they get isolated like we were talking about in kovid they get disconnected from a shared

00:33:18.720 worldview that gives them these these ecologies of practices you can't do them on your own right you'll

00:33:24.720 you'll fall prey to sort of you know if you're just an autodidact like a self-learner you'll fall

00:33:29.360 prey to all your biases and all your egocentrisms and your unrealized comfort zones you need other

00:33:34.080 people to be so we need each other to have meaning yeah we transcend each other through each other

00:33:39.920 right i try like this is socrates you know how i can most transcend myself and overcome my bias and my

00:33:46.160 narrow frame is you challenging you yeah we are the keys to each other's locks yes yes yes and so what

00:33:52.960 happened is right you need that worldview to home those ecologies of practice right give them

00:33:58.880 legitimacy give them tradition right which is not the same thing as nostalgia and then what we've done

00:34:04.160 is we've undermined that worldview we've we've torn apart the ecologies of practices because and people

00:34:11.600 are are like they've largely abandoned the legacy religions they're now abandoning abandoning the

00:34:17.280 civil religions even the the the very weak religion of popular culture is breaking down oh there's more

00:34:23.440 fortnight players and there are protestants probably right right yes you know but but look at how look at

00:34:29.040 how those like a symptom of the meaning crisis is an attempt to create worldviews that have a myth i when

00:34:36.320 i say mythological i don't mean that negatively i don't mean like a lie i mean myth myths aren't ancient

00:34:41.280 stories about the past they're they're they're they're they're stories about perennial problems

00:34:46.400 and patterns right and so like think about the whole mc universe and we call it a universe we're

00:34:51.600 trying to create this entire worldview in which basically we have bronze age gods who nevertheless

00:34:56.560 are socratic heroes and pursue virtue and they're they fly around and do all this stuff and it's falling

00:35:01.360 apart we can't even keep that running yeah right like this is how bad things are and so the perennial

00:35:08.080 problems start they start to get worse they tear out what's left of the world view the world view

00:35:14.000 can't home the ecology people get more foolish more self and the whole thing just spirals and so

00:35:20.320 if that was that a good answer by the way to the two polls yeah i think it was really good man yeah i

00:35:24.480 think it was really good i'm you know i'm doing i'm doing a decent job i think of keeping up good i'm

00:35:29.440 trying to make it accessible for listeners at the same time i think you're doing a great job at that

00:35:34.480 thank you oh thanks man yeah i appreciate it um so what happens historically in a time where we get

00:35:40.560 to a place like this is there has this happened before in time yes okay so we don't need to be

00:35:46.480 alarmed at the point like humans have never been through this that's right we've been through it

00:35:50.880 before uh now there's a like there there's two there's two uh stances on this that are both sort of

00:36:00.640 wrong because they're extreme one is oh this is human beings have always said the meanings and

00:36:04.880 problems and it's a dismissive thing and then the other one is no this is completely absolutely unique

00:36:10.160 and there's truth to both what's unique is we face a set of problems that are global in a way there was

00:36:16.240 never global problems that were this like this you know complex and and growing like we face an

00:36:23.760 interconnection of the advent of you know agi we're already we're already facing you know growing the

00:36:31.360 growing impact of social media you know people are looking at issues around the environment uh energy as

00:36:38.240 you said our political economic system is breaking down it's gridlocking and people are losing faith in

00:36:44.320 it and i use that word deliberately in in in a deep way and so those are those are i think unique things

00:36:52.880 we're facing and they i i think when we're in a meaning crisis it sort of hamstrings us it really

00:37:01.760 weakens our ability to turn our best wisdom towards these problems because when we're in a meaning crisis

00:37:08.480 right so oh especially now if we're all isolated and we're isolated and it's not our best it's very

00:37:14.240 self-motivated it's not our like group conscience um we're we're acting out of fear a lot of people

00:37:21.120 yeah and we're acting out of like and our ability to cut through the bullshit and to realize when

00:37:26.480 we're in self-deception is you know being seriously challenged oh yeah so our ability to handle this is

00:37:32.960 is very weak but it is also the case that there have been other points in time in which there have

00:37:38.720 been like not globally but um like in the ancient west at the hellenistic period there was a a meaning

00:37:46.960 crisis at that time too what was that about uh so it's basically so there's alexander the great

00:37:54.160 so socrates was he great or not oh it depends so um because that's a straight i mean that's like you're

00:38:01.760 not even leaving any you know you're saying hey so he he changes the course of the history of western

00:38:12.400 civilization in a profound way and if that's what you mean by great just sort of changing the course

00:38:18.240 of things he's great okay i'll give it to him then well but but but i i also want to say like that so

00:38:23.680 my partner like she's persian and the alexander great is the bad guy in the persian world right

00:38:30.800 yeah yeah yeah yeah so he's like uh right but what he does is like he he conquers most of

00:38:38.160 you know the silk road uh and you know uh the the some of the major civilizations in asia europe and

00:38:47.600 africa and then he dies at a young age um and so his empire breaks up into his first of all there's

00:38:55.600 a period of fighting and and and and and and and the and and the and and the and and the and

00:38:59.920 and the and the and the and the and the and the and the and the and the and the and the

00:39:02.000 there's just ongoing warfare now i just want to compare two people somebody living at the

00:39:06.960 time just before alexander the time of aristotle who taught alexander by the way right this is

00:39:12.960 their life they live in a like a polis a city they've lived there and their ancestors have lived

00:39:19.040 there for all their life everybody around them speaks the same language everybody practices the

00:39:23.120 same religion if you're in athens you participate well if you're a male so it's right you participate

00:39:29.920 directly in the government right you know you you know but in person the leaders so right this is like

00:39:35.920 like after alexander you're now in a world in which the people you've might have been uprooted

00:39:45.680 people have been uprooted moved around a little more global than at that point kind of exactly

00:39:50.000 but that's exactly the parallel right right so people around you speak a different language

00:39:53.680 they haven't been there for years you might not have your ancestors might not have been there

00:39:56.960 they have different religions right you've conquered there's an area that's been conquered so now

00:40:00.480 there's more of you to can consider whenever you're making laws and rules and and these kingdoms

00:40:04.720 are constantly shifting so you may go to sleep in the ptolemaic empire and wake up in the seleucid

00:40:08.960 empire and you don't know and that's the thing the government is thousands of kilometers away from you

00:40:14.480 so people felt um there's a term for this it's called domicile which is the killing of home they

00:40:20.640 felt they didn't feel at home in the world anymore so this has been called an age of anxiety

00:40:26.640 and now what happened at that time and in some ways this is the project i'm trying to do now

00:40:32.800 what happened at the time is philosophy changed in order to address in order to address this meaning

00:40:39.200 crisis so before it was socrates and plato you already have these questions about meaning

00:40:44.080 and wisdom but what gets added to this existential ethical dimension is what you might call a

00:40:49.920 therapeutic dimension epicurus who's one of the prototypical philosophers from this time said

00:40:55.200 call no man a philosopher who has not alleviated the suffering of others the philosopher became the

00:41:01.200 physician of the soul and what happened is philosophy took on this dimension of how to alleviate anxiety

00:41:09.440 how to increase people's sense of meaning and connectedness and we got epicureanism and stoicism

00:41:17.120 and then eventually we got neoplatonism that drew them all together and we got and you also had the

00:41:22.640 emergence of new religions that were trying to right there was syncretic religions in which people

00:41:27.120 were merging gods like or or the mother goddesses because when you don't have a home a mother goddess

00:41:32.160 becomes a really big thing isis becomes a big deal and of course christianity emerges in this mix too

00:41:37.920 wow so that's interesting because it's kind of where we are i see that where we've been now for a little

00:41:43.360 bit like people are uh gathering around speakers of men and women who are able to share a message of hope or give them

00:41:57.120 um make them feel like they have meaning or purpose why people listen to or have started to listen to

00:42:04.880 people like um i mean jordan peterson's an easy one because he's been very popular guys like you who

00:42:10.560 are able to converse uh or just you're able to put into words but a lot of people can't that's one of

00:42:16.560 the problems that a lot of us have we can't put certain things into words so we start to especially in

00:42:22.480 times like this you start to look to somebody who seems to have it together i think yeah does that

00:42:28.400 make any sense or no it does and it lands uh it lands very well but it lands with a sort of

00:42:34.880 a a a very strong sense of responsibility um that's true maybe it's putting too much responsibility on

00:42:42.720 those people i guess i'm not looking at it from that perspective i'm looking at it more from like

00:42:47.040 like the people in the in the polis in the city or whatever who were like what do we do now and and

00:42:54.480 you know and like um like as other things start to fall as the fabric of our society the traditions

00:43:00.560 and stuff start to like get more opaque or whatever there's opaque does that mean opaque like

00:43:07.280 like yeah you can't see them as well yeah yeah what do we do you know and so you go to somebody who i

00:43:13.920 think sounds like they know what they're doing right so it's again there's there there's a risk

00:43:18.480 there right there's a tremendous risk of and there's risk both ways there's a risk of the person

00:43:25.040 the figure uh being wrong well being wrong or or not caring if they're wrong there's a lot of

00:43:31.520 bullshit right and um and then and then there's also risk for the person they might be sincere but

00:43:38.160 uh you know for every myth we have in the greek tradition of the hero we have an equal myth of

00:43:44.240 hubris hubris is when you try to be the gods and the god like icarus you try to fly to the sun and

00:43:51.040 the right you try to or fate on you try to steer the chariot of the sun and you right and zeus has to

00:43:56.080 kill you right all that right humility basically right right and socratic humility right um yeah i mean

00:44:03.600 one way of understanding the human task is to keep a keep a hold on both the fact that we're finite

00:44:10.800 we're prone to error or self-deception and and unforeseen fate but we're not just animals we're

00:44:16.800 also called to virtue we have a capacity to transcend we have to hold the finitude of the transcendence

00:44:21.840 together we just do the transcendence we we can fall prey to thinking we're gods and then the hubris

00:44:26.640 falls and that's what a lot of these thought leaders do and then on the other hand but if we don't give

00:44:32.400 people something they can just they can just collapse into their finitude and and then they're they're

00:44:37.520 they're subject to tyranny and servitude and despair and plato is all about trying he uses socrates to

00:44:43.280 represent somebody who socrates described himself as metaxu between he was always holding those two

00:44:50.400 together and so i try to my i try to take on the responsibility you put your finger on in and i try to

00:44:59.680 live it that way um and and so i mean one of the things people say to me um and it's really a

00:45:11.520 profound compliment for me they'll a lot of people say john you gave me the vocabulary like you were

00:45:17.840 talking about a few minutes ago to talk about this to think about it to talk to other people about it

00:45:21.840 um but i have to balance that off with a tendency to get too self-absorbed yeah in my own terminology

00:45:31.600 and that's the fallacy it's one of the i get i don't know if the fallacy is a word but

00:45:35.840 not wiener i'm talking about the other thing the which one the like a like a confusion fallacy

00:45:43.840 and i'm talking about yeah yes okay um yeah that's one of the fallacies of just being human it's like you

00:45:50.800 can if you if when things start to go well this happened to me before in my life i started to get

00:45:55.600 some popularity and yeah things seemed like they were going good and i started there was a moment

00:45:59.840 where i was like well i started asking myself does god have some special plan for me you know yeah

00:46:05.840 which is a dangerous thing to start asking yourself it's it's okay to ask to be curious and see if

00:46:12.320 you know what the how i can be of service but part of that gets real tricky because then you start

00:46:18.400 thinking you have some special power and that's where it can just get scary and i think there's

00:46:23.840 it's just being human it's part of the it's you know it's that's what that fulcrum is right there

00:46:29.280 is just trying to keep that even you know until i think about this daily i think about this daily

00:46:34.640 i i have a i have an amazing team of people around me i have a non-for-profit organization the

00:46:39.760 river vakey foundation that keeps the money and the power at an arm's length for me i'm not i'm not in

00:46:45.120 charge of it uh i have a bunch of people around me who have been given ongoing non-negotiable

00:46:51.280 permission to tell me if i'm starting to believe my own um hey you don't strike me as that person at

00:46:57.120 all well um i wasn't trying to say that no no no no i'm just trying to examine this it's really

00:47:01.600 interesting i examine it for myself sometimes because i have people that like will say hey man

00:47:05.360 you really helped me with this or you've helped me like that's good think about those things right

00:47:09.520 it makes me feel like i'm being of service right yeah but then it's okay i have to be careful like

00:47:14.960 that i don't let that leave the room with me yeah in a in it's like beautiful music right yeah you you

00:47:22.480 you you you joy in it while it's happening because somebody is sharing with you right right and you

00:47:28.800 don't want it you don't want to rain on somebody when they're sharing with you because they need that

00:47:33.280 but then but it's like music when the song's done the song's done don't keep hymning

00:47:37.520 right right yourself as you leave right yeah don't put your airpods in

00:47:42.640 john is great john is great yeah yeah yeah exactly today's episode is brought to you by better help

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00:52:05.760 code theo so one thing that i think about when i think about meaning is like if you look at like some

00:52:12.640 past cultures they had um they would give their when people were dying they would give them like

00:52:20.080 weapons to go in the afterlife with like medallions maybe a couple you know chocolates or freaking i don't

00:52:27.040 know if they had butterscotch or whatever back then but a couple little candies for the road you know they

00:52:31.040 would put that in their bear in their casket right yeah so imagine what life was like when you

00:52:36.640 thought that yes death like there was a whole not like you this was just a preparation yes that must

00:52:43.760 have added so much i feel like that would have added so much meaning it can to being alive whereas now

00:52:49.600 that doesn't seem yeah it's not as prevalent i mean nobody you know i was at a place one time somebody

00:52:55.680 maybe put a couple quaaludes or something in a dude's pocket in a casket but i've never been there where

00:53:00.640 they're you know armoring them up and putting them in like you know um under armor or anything you

00:53:05.440 know so i that's a really important thing there's a really great book i'm teaching an online course

00:53:12.960 for the halkian academy on beyond nihilism and we started it with tillick's book the courage to be

00:53:19.120 which is a really great book the courage to be by tillick you said paul tillick yeah okay and he talks

00:53:24.800 about these different these things that can really take people into despair um and he talks about them

00:53:31.120 analytically but he's very aware that they can interpenetrate and you can have multiple ones at

00:53:35.920 the same time and one is the one you just mentioned um it's mortality um but you have to you have to

00:53:43.440 broaden it you have to understand mortality think about we have the we talk about a fatality but that

00:53:50.080 the base of that is not death the base word in there is fate this is the idea your

00:53:54.560 death is just an example of how the universe is perpetually profoundly beyond your control you

00:54:02.640 can have met the woman of your life and you both know it and you're gonna have and you step into

00:54:08.400 traffic and the truck hits you and right and it's not the case like in a romantic comedy yeah that

00:54:14.320 the great narrative that is unfolding like meet joe black that's what happened i think in that yes so we

00:54:19.840 we we we we we confront we confront fatality which ultimately in our mortality um that's one one is

00:54:30.400 one we've been talking about meaninglessness though the world can just suddenly seem flat and futile and

00:54:35.760 we can feel alienated and anxious and then the other one is guilt not just in the everyday sense of like

00:54:45.760 oh you know i shouldn't have said that to peter it's in the more profound sense of i think i'm just a bad

00:54:54.000 person right i just i like and not necessarily evil i just you the weight of your flaws and your

00:55:04.240 failings and your faults can be magnified especially if you if you're very honest i mean theo i don't want

00:55:11.600 to live forever because i don't want to try and carry that boulder that will get larger and larger

00:55:17.520 of my flaws and my fates and my finitude right and that can weigh you down and so i think i think one of

00:55:26.320 the things that i think you're right one of the things that most people have lost although not as

00:55:31.680 many as you might think so although uh participation in the legacy religions the world religions is

00:55:39.120 declining even in america now america was always the weird exception but now it's starting to decline

00:55:44.560 so in a couple generations most people in america won't be religious adherents wow that's scary

00:55:51.360 feeling well that's domicile so welcome to it sorry that's domicile the loss of home loss of home oh

00:55:57.920 the loss of feeling at home loss of loss of feeling at home in the universe right we used to call it a

00:56:02.640 cosmos cosmos was like cosmetic beautiful and now we call it universe right it's flat uh we don't

00:56:08.960 there's no depth to it so those all three of those intersect now one of the things and i want to go

00:56:14.480 back to remember i mentioned like the hellenistic philosophers like epicurus even socrates they tried

00:56:21.200 to address the problem of mortality socrates said all the philosophy is a preparation for death

00:56:28.000 right um and they tried to address it in a different way and it can i try just just to get people first

00:56:36.720 first of all one thing other cultures so i have a lot i've been practicing within taoism and buddhist

00:56:41.600 practices also for three decades so uh see so if you look in even in vedanta if you're looking within

00:56:47.680 hinduism at least important i mean i don't want to talk about them as they're homogeneous but at least

00:56:52.240 large swaths of hinduism buddhism right immortality is a curse like immortality living forever is

00:56:59.040 a curse right all viewed it like that you're saying yes okay because the idea is reincarnation you come

00:57:04.640 back again and again and again and again and like i said the like this is kind of like karma the the

00:57:10.880 the faults and the flaws and the failings pile up uh right and and it just and it becomes it becomes

00:57:19.280 just horrible um and and what you seek for is moksha you seek for liberation from rebirth

00:57:25.680 or reincarnation or you seek nirvana you're seeking you i don't want to be reborn oh so when there's in some

00:57:32.000 of those religions where there's reincarnation they seek to be freed from that that is the core of

00:57:36.640 vedanta you want to you want to realize moksha by realizing that the ground of your being your soul and

00:57:44.400 the ground of reality are one and that liberates you from being attached to i want this i want this to

00:57:51.520 survive i want this to survive and let go of that and buddhism has something similar it tries to convince

00:57:57.520 you that the idea that you have a substantial soul atman is an alt is ultimately false and if you can

00:58:04.080 really truly not just as an idea but like we were talking about earlier if you can let go of it all

00:58:08.480 the way through then you'll be liberated from that so it's a different response now the hellenistic

00:58:14.560 philosophers did something very similar in the west epicurus he was famous for this he he didn't try and

00:58:21.680 convince people that they were immortal he's he he he tried to get people to change the way they frame

00:58:27.120 their mortality so he famously said where death is i am not where i am death is not what he's trying

00:58:34.080 what do you what's he's doing there is he playing games what he's saying is you can't actually experience

00:58:39.040 being dead because if you're dead you're not there there's no experience and as long as you're experiencing

00:58:45.600 you're not dead you can never have the experience of being dead and so what do you know and people say

00:58:53.200 that's not good enough that's not the point the point is so he's trying to get you to be more

00:58:56.720 discerning what is it you are afraid of you're afraid of dying you're afraid of going through the

00:59:02.320 process of losing your vitality losing your relationships losing your body you're not afraid

00:59:10.480 of death you're afraid like you're not afraid of all the time before your birth when you didn't

00:59:14.400 didn't exist right right so right so what is it you're afraid of dying you're afraid of losing

00:59:19.120 losing so here's what we could do find the things that you can keep up until the very last moment of

00:59:26.720 consciousness and he said the one thing the two things that you can always have are wisdom and

00:59:32.640 friendship cultivate wise friendships and friendships that support wisdom and he was he was suffering

00:59:38.160 horrible illness as he was dying and he took that right through any right and he and he also taught

00:59:43.680 people how to not fear the gods right and and and and so that was one response the stoics you know

00:59:52.880 marcus aurelius people all know marcus aurelius from the movies right and marcus really it's what

00:59:58.160 the stoic said is look the problem we are is what what we set our hearts on what we what we identify

01:00:04.560 with right like we're always assuming and assigning identities for example right now i'm assuming the

01:00:10.160 identity of like you know this academic person i'm assigning an identity to you but this isn't

01:00:15.360 the identity i would have with my partner when i go home at night that would be weird right and i

01:00:20.240 wouldn't assign the well sorry you're going to interview me now right right that's weird right

01:00:24.320 and so we're always assuming and assigning identities and we're doing this in this interlocking manner

01:00:28.640 that agent arena way but here's the thing most of the time we do this unconsciously we do it mindlessly

01:00:34.000 yeah automatically reactively and so we set our we identify with the wrong things and so what the stoic

01:00:39.920 said is i'm going to use i'm going to i know your viewers can't see i'm drawing a horizontal line

01:00:44.000 we identify with horizontal things we identify with trying to extend our life have more fame have more

01:00:50.320 power and they said that's ultimately doomed you're pitting yourself against the universe you're very

01:00:54.720 the universe is going to crush it yeah instead go vertical seneca said even when you're painted into

01:01:01.040 a corner you can jump into the sky so the vertical is don't try and get the most extension of your life

01:01:09.440 try and get the greatest depth there's a there's a book wow that's so powerful that's really really

01:01:14.800 cool yeah and so you live that and you try and realize that now they did this in uh even when

01:01:20.000 you're painting a corner you can jump into the sky yeah and so things people can do when they feel

01:01:24.080 like they're painted into a corner they can help somebody else that will that creates probably some

01:01:30.640 and they can get more in touch they can and this is helping other people service is definitely a way to

01:01:36.080 do this you what they can get think about they think about this is that i mentioned earlier people

01:01:41.600 don't want a flat world they want a world with depth and height to it and you can you can you can

01:01:46.720 touch the depths of reality and the heights of reality and you know of course you can do this with

01:01:51.920 mindfulness practices and other kinds of practices and i'm just thinking as i get a lot of questions

01:01:56.320 people asking like hey man i'm in a tough spot right now i feel like there's no way out what do i do

01:02:01.760 right now so that's why and a lot of times i'll say to those people you know try and be of service

01:02:05.920 try and help someone else it is um get out of yourself you know we get we get trapped in in

01:02:11.200 ourselves definitely that's that's very that's very much the case so that's what i'm thinking what

01:02:14.640 other things would you recommend you think well so let's talk about this let's let's talk about

01:02:19.680 and um i think this will have personal relevance to you too and and if uh i don't want to push any

01:02:25.840 buttons inappropriately uh but uh let's talk about when people the one of the worst versions of that

01:02:32.240 which is addiction okay and so my friend and colleague mark lewis has one of the best

01:02:38.400 theories of addiction it's basically a reciprocal narrowing theory so so your world is getting really

01:02:45.680 problematic so you take a substance to alter your state of consciousness so that it doesn't seem to be

01:02:53.280 so threatening at least for a bit the problem you pay for that is you weaken your cognitive abilities

01:02:58.480 now when you come when you when you weaken your cognitive abilities your ability to solve problems

01:03:01.920 in the world goes down so now the world's more threatening so now you got to take the substance

01:03:05.680 and now you got to take more of it and then you weaken your cognitive abilities more and you see

01:03:10.080 what's happening the world is getting more and more oppressive fewer and fewer options and there's

01:03:15.680 you have less and less cognitive flexibility you less have less and less ability to move maneuver in

01:03:20.560 your mind to change until you can't be any different and the world has no future and that's addiction

01:03:26.400 you've reciprocally narrowed your way all the way yourself all the way down now i was having dinner with

01:03:31.680 mark lunch with mark lewis and i said to him and plato's in the back of my mind because i got this from

01:03:36.720 plato i said to mark i said well if you can reciprocally narrow can't you reciprocally open can't you

01:03:45.120 bring some flexibility to each your mind and that opens up the world you start to see the world in more

01:03:49.120 depth and then that actually opens you up into the depths of yourself and and the world and you can

01:03:54.800 reciprocally open it would make sense yeah and that's what plato talked about when he talked about

01:03:59.040 the the the myth of the cave you know and we turned that into the movie the matrix so right you can you

01:04:04.160 can you can wake up you can reciprocally open up and what's what's important about that is that's

01:04:11.360 jumping into the sky that's like a set the word for that is in greek is anagoga it means ascent like like

01:04:16.720 when they're the people are in the cave right and they ascend out into the into the real world

01:04:22.400 and so you can you can open up now what's interesting about that is like when you do that

01:04:28.480 this was plato's great insight three things are happening that are really really important

01:04:34.080 two well i'm going to use matt again two meta desires so in addition to whatever you desire you

01:04:39.760 desire that what is satisfying your desires you have peace of mind you have you're not at war with

01:04:44.720 yourself you're not in conflict with yourself okay the other is you desire that what is satisfying in

01:04:51.040 your desires is real you may say well that doesn't seem right well let me let me let me let me give you

01:04:56.000 just one clear example of this so we've tried to take everything that used to be carried by god and

01:05:04.560 civic and sacred religion and culture and tradition and heritage and legacy and put it into our romantic

01:05:10.880 relationships they're going to do all of that for us this is the weird messed up we're oh yeah we we

01:05:16.480 make someone our power higher power that's right that's right and we and we'd say to one person you're

01:05:20.400 going to do all that for me and they can't and so the relationships break inevitably because our

01:05:25.120 expectations were insane your relationship shouldn't be your ultimate right your relationship should be

01:05:30.720 nourished by what is ultimate there's a different thing right so you ask people i do this with my

01:05:36.400 students i'll say how many of you are in deeply satisfying romantic relationships that a certain

01:05:41.520 number put up their hands and i say of the ones that have their hands up right now keep your hands up

01:05:50.720 if you would want to know if your partner was cheating on you even if that would destroy the

01:05:54.560 relationship and almost all of them keep their hands up and then you ask them well why do you keep

01:05:58.640 your hands up and they said because it's not real i want it to be real i don't want it to be a fake

01:06:04.560 i don't want it to be fraud i want it to be real now what's happening with this reciprocal opening

01:06:09.280 the opposite of the addict in which everything's becoming unreal is they're getting more and more

01:06:13.760 integrated as a person the world is making more sense it's getting more real they're getting more

01:06:19.360 at peace and these open those are the two things you're satisfying those two things in a joint way

01:06:24.640 and here's the third thing when you do this with a person or with reality so mutually accelerating

01:06:31.200 disclosure is the technical term but if i open up to you and then you open up to me and then that

01:06:37.120 enables me to open up more to you and we do this reciprocal opening with each other that's love

01:06:42.480 that's what and it doesn't i'm not talking about romantic love it can be yeah right so buddies yeah

01:06:47.120 reciprocal opening gives you peace of mind gives you a deep reality and it causes you to love

01:06:55.120 that's leaping into the sky yeah you notice i get that a lot when i go so i'm i go to recovery

01:07:01.360 meetings and so i'll go to meetings and like one of the things that's nice about it is i sit in a room

01:07:06.720 a lot of times and people just share what's going on with them right and everybody just listens you

01:07:11.920 just listen you don't even no one replies to that person no one judges them no one it's just this place

01:07:17.920 where somebody can share and whatever their feelings were with that they can just be in the room and

01:07:23.600 there's no you start to create this sense of comfort in people that you can share this that

01:07:29.760 the world is a safe place to share which probably was got closed up if they were really you know like

01:07:36.000 narrowing in it does and isolating it's like so this thing starts to grow and it's just like it's almost

01:07:42.000 a comfort it's just a comfort that grows but then it it becomes like a positive algae on other things

01:07:49.680 and then everything starts to grow a little bit yeah and it really is it's expansive though yeah it

01:07:54.400 is very expansive is what it feels like and it expands out and in is that is that fair yeah i agree

01:08:00.400 that's really what's interesting about it you're like before you know it you're kind of feeling okay a

01:08:05.120 little and it's uh but it grows on itself you know so imagine if you're siddhartha gotama the buddha

01:08:11.600 right or perhaps socrates and that is how you were always living and you you to the the prop the

01:08:17.600 answer to the problem nihilism is not some argument the answer is to fall in love with being with

01:08:23.200 reality again in this way we're talking about and when you do that right you get that vertical dimension

01:08:33.280 well let me tell you a story right so this is uh julian barnes wrote a book the history of the

01:08:38.160 world in ten and a half chapters there's this one story about this guy dies and there's an afterlife

01:08:41.920 he goes to heaven saint peter's is there oh yeah do whatever you want and and the and and the good

01:08:46.720 place made use of this but i won't do any spoilers about but anyways um the great ending they made use

01:08:52.400 of this and he you know he wants to play and he gets and he plays golf and he gets the place where

01:08:56.160 he can play golf absolutely the best every single day all the time then tennis and then any painting

01:09:02.320 and then after a while he comes and it's like you know i'm kind of done

01:09:07.200 and he's like and and saint peter goes good good what good is the point of heaven is not for you

01:09:16.160 to live forever i always think of the line from moby dick what is man that he should want to live out

01:09:20.720 the lifetime of his god right the point of heaven is for you to be ready to die to ready for to cease

01:09:27.040 to be because you're immortal you shouldn't be forever and then stoicism is can you live now so

01:09:33.840 vertically that you're ready to die not i'm like in some stiff upper lip we misuse the word stoic we

01:09:40.240 think it's about being still stoicism is about joy not pleasure it's about joy it's about this vertical

01:09:46.160 jump it's about this vertical like deep depth right can you have such joy in this way we're talking about

01:09:54.800 that you're ready to die wow that's a great question

01:09:58.560 it's interesting and then how would people get there you know and how does a man like you know

01:10:06.400 how do people get to that place today the responsibility i think men are feeling a ton

01:10:11.680 of responsibility right now yes it's very hard and that's okay it's interesting it's that's what

01:10:16.640 that's what's being brought on by the world and by society i think men are realizing that they have to be

01:10:21.760 the uh i don't know if it's the ruler of their kingdom but they have to really start to step up and be a

01:10:27.680 leader in their home and in their environment i think it's really i mean for me somebody that's

01:10:33.600 been of help for me um is marcus realis i mean uh so he's a great stoic philosopher uh but he was also

01:10:41.360 the the the roman roman empire he runs the whole roman empire he's the last and perhaps the greatest

01:10:47.440 of the five good emperors and he said something that you have to really let it reverberate inside of

01:10:53.120 you uh because it really it he said many things if you read his the meditate the meditation chatty

01:10:59.760 kind of yeah thank god yes well the meditations aren't written to anybody else they're actually

01:11:05.040 if you they're written to him yeah they're written to himself so he's doing a spiritual practice and

01:11:09.360 this is a practice you can do by the way and it it starts to work but one of the things he wrote to

01:11:14.720 himself he said it's possible to be happy even in a palace hmm right and that that's so interesting

01:11:23.280 because you you think the last sentence is going to be even in a prison or even in a desert island or

01:11:27.840 something right desert island and it's like nope it's possibly happy even in a palace and it's like

01:11:34.320 there's a way in which although all those things that are catchy but don't have depth

01:11:38.880 we can we can we can learn and we can help each other tick not han said the next buddha is actually

01:11:46.320 the sangha the community right we can we can learn to discern uh through all of that and get to that

01:11:54.960 where we can find that vertical um uh such that we can leap into the sky i love that man i love that

01:12:03.040 feeling when you're stuck you're painting into a corner that you can still leap into the sky there's a way

01:12:08.080 to find fascinating reciprocal opening there's a way and and and and let's let's be clear i mean

01:12:14.960 you have marcus aurelius on on one i'm not saying so i have criticisms of stoicism um uh but you know

01:12:21.200 marcus aurelius is an emperor epictetus is a slave the the the two poles of and they're both saying you

01:12:27.360 can do this you both they're both saying at the extremes uh you can you can find this um and and

01:12:34.960 and they're not saying they're not doing it like at a hallmark card yeah right they're like you you

01:12:39.200 have to you have to practice a lot of you have to do a complex ecology of practices that you not only

01:12:45.920 do by yourself but deeply with other people honed properly and then you can make progress on doing

01:12:55.520 this what we're talking about where did we start to lose that i mean obviously religion was something

01:13:01.200 that was big that kept people in like a common out like a common practice right that was a and that

01:13:06.800 was bigger in the past centuries i feel like than it has been here in in america yeah well i mean and

01:13:12.960 that provided a place where you would go together you would there were certain practices that you guys

01:13:17.600 did each week and uh there were you know religious get-togethers and and and people thinking about

01:13:23.760 their god and thinking with their god um and singing together yes singing together stuff like

01:13:29.840 that's powerful man i've been in a i've been in a church where people will start even in an audience

01:13:34.560 with a band sometimes and but it's specifically at a church sometimes people start singing it's like

01:13:39.920 it'll open up you know it'll make you feel connected you know your feelings will just start crying

01:13:45.760 just start emoting you know or feeling something yeah um so there's something about that the the

01:13:52.000 doing something as a community and feeling as a group yeah and also there's the horizontal and like

01:13:59.680 in some of the practices that that we do um there's the horizontal like you and i reciprocally open to

01:14:05.360 each other but there's also the vertical you and i sort of we're not only opening this way we're opening

01:14:11.360 vertically as well and it's really interesting when you do some of these socratic practices

01:14:16.640 dialectic into dialogos philosophical fellowship things like that people who are often not religious

01:14:23.680 at all secular they'll get into this and they'll start to feel that collective flow state and that

01:14:28.720 sense of reciprocally opening to each other and then they all start talking about like the the third

01:14:34.400 the the we space like that the the collective intelligence that neither it's not coming just from

01:14:40.560 you or from me but it's being co-created and emerging and taking on a life of its own yeah right and

01:14:46.320 and then they start to talk about this in in religious language and and we we lost that i mean

01:14:53.200 so that feels like as close as we can get to god a lot of times i feel like there's the most people

01:14:59.200 start saying things like that it might be god for them and i i want to be really careful here i'm very

01:15:04.880 respectful of people's religious adherence i'm not anti-religious by any means um but um no neither

01:15:11.440 but people well what happens is right and this is a a platonic point a neoplatonic point so what

01:15:18.720 happens is initially when they're doing these they get an intimacy with each other that reciprocal

01:15:23.760 opening they fall in love it's philia love it's not right but that's in the word philosophy it's

01:15:28.880 fellowship love of wisdom right they get that and then they start to feel intimate with this the

01:15:35.760 geist the spirit we call it the logos the the right this this thing this emerging collective

01:15:42.160 intelligence that is making everything more intelligible and people start to reciprocally

01:15:46.800 open with it right and then they start to reciprocally open through each other and through that logos

01:15:54.400 to the depths of reality yeah and then they start to feel like they're in relationship to what is

01:16:00.640 ultimate and some people think about that as god and and some and some people think about god

01:16:08.480 personally some people think about god impersonally some people think about it more like the ground of

01:16:13.280 being or ultimate reality but what everybody starts well all the people that talk this what they're doing

01:16:18.960 is they're trying to express a connection to something that's profoundly transformatively real

01:16:28.080 and meaningful and we have a word for that it's sacred to them now and there's a deep connection

01:16:34.160 between having a sacred canopy and the cultivation of wisdom so another thing i'll ask my students

01:16:39.120 where do you go for information without thinking they hold up their smartphones because we're all cyborgs

01:16:44.400 now right right and i say where do you go for knowledge and they'll sort of like oh how well science

01:16:50.240 the university but grandpa well yeah something right but then i'll say and this is where it's really

01:16:56.240 interesting where do you go for wisdom and there's an anxious silence now if you'd asked people that

01:17:03.520 200 years ago they'd say oh my church my temple my mosque right right right right my sangha

01:17:11.680 those answers don't come out occasionally very rarely somebody will say like my church but they'll

01:17:21.200 sometimes they'll they'll say it kind of like but not really and what's happened is it's most so the

01:17:28.720 the the the largest growing demographic are the nuns the n-o-n-e-s is they have no affiliate

01:17:34.400 official religious identity now that doesn't mean they're overwhelmingly atheist most of them are

01:17:39.920 spiritual but not religious or seekers or they have weird supernatural beliefs but so but what's

01:17:48.240 happened is most people are abandoning religion not primarily because they've come to some deep

01:17:54.320 conclusion that it's false although religion has a problem the religions generally have a problem with

01:17:58.560 the scientific world view at least some versions of them but it's much more it's it's it's it's a

01:18:04.320 it's a little bit of a truth issue theo but it's much more a relevance issue most people feel

01:18:09.040 that these institutions are no longer like relevant to them they're they're not they're not vibrant

01:18:15.760 they're not vital yeah they they don't speak to them they don't call them to their better self they

01:18:21.040 don't call them into like these these these these experiences in fact the ecology of practices has

01:18:29.040 generally withered and we've tended to emphasize like giving each other propositions and reciting them to

01:18:35.760 each other as opposed to this complex set of rituals and ecologies of practices so yeah we as we lost

01:18:44.880 and i'm not and i'm not nostalgia you can put this on my tombstone neither nostalgia nor utopia i'm not

01:18:50.320 nostalgia i'm not saying we need to go back right right no we're just looking at it right we're looking

01:18:54.560 at it but when we lost that sacred canopy we we lost a lot you know nietzsche said it really well he said

01:19:02.000 he runs into the marketplace the madman and he's he doesn't confront christians he confronts the

01:19:07.280 atheists who are all sort of tittering about the death of god and he said you don't know what and

01:19:12.000 nietzsche is the guy who pronounces the death of god so he's not he's not there to argue against

01:19:16.560 them as atheists he said you don't realize what you've done you've taken a sponge and you've wiped out

01:19:22.720 the sky right you you've unchained us like we're no we're forever falling we have to become worthy of

01:19:29.520 this we like killing god we have not like to put it in affective terms we have not grieved to the

01:19:37.200 depths we need to and in a healthy way in order to be worthy of that that's what he's basically saying

01:19:44.400 well yeah it's like if you when you take that type of thing away right i mean and then you take away

01:19:49.840 the religion of the family right like a lot of families have evolved you see a lot of single parent

01:19:55.360 families both parents have to work you know the kids are being raised by uh you know by their

01:20:02.000 smartphones and by whatever uh the first thing you can get in get to them and then you take away also

01:20:09.680 you know there was a time like in the 90s where like uh everything kind of like and this is a

01:20:14.880 smaller version but everything is like you can watch or consume whatever you want when you want

01:20:20.000 it yeah there used to be like sure we would yeah shared experiences they were called networks for

01:20:24.560 a reason right we were a network together yeah we would all watch a show and then we would go out

01:20:29.280 in the street and like impersonate the characters from it yeah we would uh like you were excited as

01:20:34.480 soon as the show went it was over especially in the summer because it was still light outside

01:20:38.720 we go outside and like impersonate our favorite acts from it we'd all laugh and have like a shared

01:20:43.600 experience whereas now everybody is fragmented yeah everybody's just like watching whatever when

01:20:48.960 they want it's all separate you don't really feel a connection i think that's that's profoundly right

01:20:53.840 that's what i meant earlier about how popular culture used to have a religious fun religio to bind

01:20:59.920 together it's we it used to do that and now we've even lost that dimension i i think i think well how do

01:21:07.520 we get back from there do we get back from there or is this like an evolutionary time where how we

01:21:14.320 meet and the things that the glues that connect us or make us feel like part of a society or part of

01:21:24.880 a universe or existence that they're just being challenged like i mean they're always being challenged

01:21:32.480 but do you think there's a way out of this kind of space or do you think we're in like a never before

01:21:38.480 i do think there's a way out and i like so a big chunk of my scientific work my work as a scientist

01:21:45.360 is to try and figure out what is this meaning making machinery what is wisdom um how can we

01:21:50.880 get a better understanding so we can cultivate it better but also working with communities of

01:21:56.640 practice practitioners leaders of these communities i've done a lot of participant observation i've done a

01:22:01.680 a lot of participant uh experimentation i did uh uh ray kelly's uh return to the source last july

01:22:08.880 um uh is that a series is that a uh you go out it's an ecology of practice evolve move play he's been

01:22:16.320 very influenced first by jordan peterson's work and then more so uh more recently and uh i think you

01:22:23.520 would say more in depth by my work um and we'll put links to all of these things that he's mentioning

01:22:28.240 and talking about we're going to put links to those in the uh in the information on youtube so

01:22:32.400 you guys will be able to access these different things go on sorry so so you know and what what

01:22:38.880 you have is you you have um so let's say there's a father or mother out there right and they they're

01:22:46.960 in charge of their home right how and they want to have a different future they want their yeah you

01:22:51.600 know what can what do they do what do they start to do like all like as a person or as a leader of a

01:22:59.440 home that can help yeah so good good here's the answer uh uh sorry uh but i'm enthusiastic don't

01:23:08.240 misread my my energy for like i know like i hope i have no look we're waiting we're waiting john okay

01:23:15.680 so like and where this comes from work i've done with nathan vanderpool and uh and other people like

01:23:22.000 like i said i've done i've both i've i've been in the room virtually or uh in person with all of

01:23:27.920 the scientists when we're all sat in a room and we what is wisdom and we really we produced a consensus

01:23:33.600 paper and then i've done i go you know lots of participant observation and we got all the a lot of the

01:23:40.240 leaders of the community together in one room and we did a bunch of discussion and practice and we're

01:23:44.640 gonna i'm gonna go to another one uh next week in france um or same thing and and so what's coming

01:23:51.120 out of it is like there's sort of three dimensions you want to pay attention to you want to pay

01:23:56.640 attention to view care and action you want to pay remember that framing you want to do you want to

01:24:02.400 really become aware of how you're framing and you want to become really aware of that process of

01:24:07.840 how you're assuming and assigning identities stop letting all of that go on mindlessly automatically

01:24:13.280 reactively try and you got to bring it more into your awareness right that's view care

01:24:21.280 reciprocal opening you've got to learn how to reciprocally open how to you know what communicate

01:24:27.920 share information accept information is that what you mean by that yeah but also reciprocally open you

01:24:32.160 need you need one of the defining features of wisdom is an ability to take other people's perspective in a

01:24:37.680 way that makes a difference to how you're behaving like i don't understand so you and i right you can

01:24:47.360 know that you can know as a set of facts john's different he thinks differently than me but you can

01:24:53.120 have this kind of moment let's say it's not me where you go oh

01:24:57.680 i thought she was angry but she's actually afraid

01:25:06.960 you have to you have to cultivate that kind of uh daniel siegel calls it mind sight like insight into

01:25:12.080 other people's minds and not just facts about their mind but the ability to get their world and where

01:25:18.880 they're coming from so that you can be responsive and responsible to it you care and then that are

01:25:24.960 automatically those two you can now see why they lead to the third thing action how are you

01:25:28.960 interacting and you want to be doing that so you can tune in to connections how are you connected to

01:25:35.920 yourself how are you connected to other people how are you connected to the world and how are you

01:25:41.120 connected to something ultimate that gives a verticality to your existence and then you want to

01:25:46.160 cultivate an ecology of practices in four domains we call it dying you want dialogical practices this

01:25:53.440 dialectic into dialogus and we run workshops on that and there's a whole bunch there's circling

01:25:58.080 practices there's this is all over the place where people are trying to get back this kind what's

01:26:02.960 happening between you and i where it takes on a life of its own and we both get to a place we

01:26:07.040 couldn't get to on our own and it's emergent and it's transformative yeah then you want the imaginal

01:26:12.400 you have to remember we talked about the experiment with you have to learn how to properly use your

01:26:17.680 imagination again yeah that's disappearing huh yeah it's an extinct animal the imagination and we're

01:26:23.840 also what and we've also we've also relegated it to something that where we're looking i want to

01:26:30.640 compare two different senses of imagination one is the imaginary this is henry corbin he's uh he was a

01:26:37.120 philosopher um and that's like when i you picture something in your mind like picture a sailboat yeah

01:26:42.800 okay does it have are the sales up or down it's out in a shop okay so there you go now that's one

01:26:48.720 thing now i want you to consider that in comparison to this so a kid picks up a stick ties a blanket

01:26:56.240 around them and says i'm zorro they're not picturing anything in their mind what they're doing is they're

01:27:01.680 trying to take the perspective and the identity that stuff we were talking about earlier of zorro they're

01:27:06.560 trying on what it's like to be zorro in order to see if they can catch any of his virtues

01:27:15.200 that's serious play that's what you do in ritual you do that imaginally augmented awareness so when

01:27:22.800 i'm teaching people tai chi right and they're novices and you have to teach them how to inhabit

01:27:27.040 their body differently you say to them okay i want you to imagine you're standing in a shallow river

01:27:32.240 and your knees to your feet are sinking into the mud you want to have that sinking feeling there

01:27:36.480 your knees to your your navel are like the flowing water you want this to feel like flowing water

01:27:42.480 right and then from your navel up this is like the air you want it to feel as insubstantial as

01:27:46.480 possible and when people are doing that they're imaginally augmenting so they can become aware of

01:27:51.040 very subtle patterns sensory motor patterns that they were would otherwise be unaware of and they can

01:27:57.120 re-inhabit themselves in a new way and a new possibility a new developmental pathway opens for them

01:28:02.720 that's the imaginal you have to and that's what ritual properly does right so you need the dialogical

01:28:09.280 you need the imaginal you need mindfulness practices you need meditative practices and contemplative

01:28:13.520 practices they're not the same thing you need sitted versions you need moving versions you got to create

01:28:18.240 that ecology right and then you need embodiment in practices you need practices that involve you

01:28:24.640 right knowing through your body being embedded in your environment negotiating with the world

01:28:31.200 so rafe kelly you evolve move play you go you do parkour in the wilderness so you get nature

01:28:37.440 connection and you're also moving your body and having it be challenged so it's not a postcard that

01:28:43.440 you sit back like a monet painting oh isn't that lovely i just really like no it's challenging you

01:28:49.040 it's forcing you to transcend i when i was there i'm like i'm like 60 and i'm there with all these 20

01:28:53.840 somethings right and like right and and and and i talked about every day you went to the horizon of

01:29:00.240 horror you take and they were they're so good at like taking you to this place where it's like oh i'm

01:29:05.760 really scared i made a vow to myself i said no matter what it is there's a couple things i can't do

01:29:10.480 because of my many years and i took i said other than those things anything that's presented to me i'm

01:29:15.760 going to do it and the more afraid i am the more i'm going to do oh yeah i did that today i went i

01:29:21.760 got in the ice i have an ice bath here and i got in i didn't really want to but i was like i need

01:29:26.080 something i just want to alter i just want to challenge my perception today yeah i want to do

01:29:30.480 something i don't want to do it's something small but it's like doing that thing that you don't want

01:29:35.440 to do or putting yourself up just committing to it you know do you think we used to get so much more

01:29:40.960 out of that just in our system because if it seems like these things you're speaking of are

01:29:45.280 things that seem like necessities to our soul you know they are like nothing seems more thirsty these

01:29:50.880 days than like our soul like whatever there's like some i almost can feel this part of underneath me all

01:29:58.720 a lot of times just almost like my soul is trying to order per like oxy cons or something it's like dude

01:30:06.640 what am i like what am i even doing here anymore if these are the practices we're doing

01:30:10.720 a lot of times it's like you can start to feel it feels bored you know or it feels like thirsty

01:30:18.320 what's a better word it doesn't feel bored it feels thirsty well yeah thirsty and but it can

01:30:23.760 vacillate between profound boredom and extreme anxiety like so you get the and and by the way

01:30:29.280 thirst that's the that's the that the word that's actually used in the buddhist scriptures for what's

01:30:34.640 usually translated as desire it's it's more like thirst and craving it's not simple desire yeah uh so

01:30:40.480 yeah and and that that craving um when it's that reciprocal narrowing it's identifying in a

01:30:48.720 mindless fact it's all that stuff we talk about uh and i i i like i like the contrast that i'm i'm

01:30:56.720 playing around with it in my mind it's like we have to learn to not thirst because we properly

01:31:02.800 nourish our souls and when you get people to do these for like these three dimensions view care

01:31:09.040 action and do dime you know dialogical imaginal mindfulness embodied embedded extended enacted

01:31:16.320 all that stuff emotional to all the ease right right and they do it not only individually but collectively

01:31:23.200 right then people start to talk about that nourishment and that nourishment

01:31:28.320 that's where the the language your your your your soul is sort of your vehicle your way of being

01:31:35.280 profoundly connected right um and sometimes people make a distinction between your soul is sort of how

01:31:41.520 you're profoundly connected like to your body and to and you're grounded and then your spirit is how

01:31:48.160 you're profoundly connected to that capacity for leaping into the sky right and and and then yourself

01:31:54.960 yourself is paradoxically how you're profoundly connected to other we only become selves through

01:31:59.760 other people if you're if you're raised in isolation you don't become a self you don't become a person

01:32:04.880 we become selves you know we become selves by i i'm taking a perspective right now right and you're

01:32:10.640 taking a perspective on my perspective what a kid does and this is like the zorro the imaginal the kid

01:32:17.200 imaginally not imagine imagine imagine but imaginally right the kid will try and take on the perspective

01:32:24.400 of the teacher or the parent that's well and they'll imitate them right and eventually they can imitate

01:32:30.880 them to the point they indwell that that parent's perspective and then they imitate it more and more and

01:32:36.320 more and what that means is they start to be able to do that for themselves they start to internalize

01:32:41.600 that and what what does the parents perspective have that the kid's perspective doesn't the

01:32:46.560 parents perspective can see the biases that the kid's perspective has the kid can't see it

01:32:52.000 because they're in the bio they're in the perspective and the parents perspective can also

01:32:55.440 see broader deeper goals that the kid's perspective can't see and so this is by gootsky

01:33:00.640 and other people's notions by internalizing the perspective of the parent they get a capacity to

01:33:06.400 to take a perspective on their own perspective-taking,

01:33:09.800 and that's how they start to become a self-aware agent.

01:33:13.420 If you ask a three-year-old,

01:33:15.000 even a three-and-a-half-year-old,

01:33:16.460 what's going on in your head right now?

01:33:17.640 They'll say, blood, blood.

01:33:19.520 They can't introspect.

01:33:21.120 Oh, yeah.

01:33:22.520 And I kept track of this with my younger son.

01:33:25.280 It must be bad if your father's a cognitive scientist, but.

01:33:28.460 Oh, yeah, the kid's not gonna be.

01:33:30.980 But I kept track of the first two times he introspected.

01:33:34.700 He was four and a bit, and we were driving in the car,

01:33:37.560 and he said, daddy, it's snowing outside,

01:33:40.320 but only in my head, and he.

01:33:43.240 Oh, he's imagining it.

01:33:44.480 Right, and he can introspect.

01:33:46.980 He's got that interior imaginal space,

01:33:48.840 because there's no literal space inside your head.

01:33:50.580 Yeah.

01:33:51.420 And then the other time is he came up to me and he said,

01:33:53.420 I have a backwards camera in my head.

01:33:55.660 And I went, what?

01:33:56.880 What does that mean?

01:33:58.460 And then I realized, he was saying,

01:34:00.820 he has autobiographical memory.

01:34:02.460 He can go, he can remember his past.

01:34:05.460 And then I, this is great, I said to him,

01:34:07.200 does anybody else have that?

01:34:08.260 And he said, no, only me.

01:34:11.660 Right, so we become capable of introspecting,

01:34:16.380 reflecting on ourselves, correcting ourselves,

01:34:18.980 pretending to ourselves through other people.

01:34:21.460 We become selves through each other.

01:34:24.540 And so the soul is perhaps, I mean,

01:34:27.640 I'm trying to rehabilitate these terms

01:34:29.540 so we can re-inhabit them.

01:34:31.040 And there's a connection between those two words,

01:34:32.940 rehabilitate, re-inhabit, right?

01:34:34.880 I'm trying to rehabilitate the notion of soul.

01:34:37.160 This is how we, right, this is our deep connectedness

01:34:40.120 to our embodiment, to our groundedness.

01:34:42.320 Our self is our deep connectedness to each other.

01:34:46.200 And our spirit is our deep connectedness to the vertical,

01:34:49.160 to what is ultimate.

01:34:50.160 And if we could bring those back so that they can be

01:34:53.220 simultaneously scientifically understood,

01:34:56.280 remember Socrates, and spiritually,

01:34:58.580 transformatively real for us again,

01:35:00.760 then we can do that nourishment you were talking about.

01:35:03.320 And I think it's gonna become, it's a necessity.

01:35:06.000 I think-

01:35:06.300 It is.

01:35:06.760 That's what I think, I don't know if that part of us

01:35:09.160 can die, the part of us that is desperate

01:35:12.720 for these, just like this understanding

01:35:18.400 or this comfort or this peace,

01:35:20.380 not even like the comfort of a blanket or of,

01:35:24.860 but the comfort of just some connection

01:35:27.760 to this greater energy that we're supposed to be

01:35:31.300 like working with, you know?

01:35:37.000 So we're just talking about like how,

01:35:39.360 that we need each other, right?

01:35:41.020 Yeah.

01:35:41.340 We need each other.

01:35:42.600 And what's interesting, I've noticed about time recently,

01:35:46.060 especially since like social media and the computer,

01:35:49.880 really the sense of smartphone is,

01:35:52.340 we almost, I started to notice this

01:35:55.400 with reality television, right?

01:35:56.980 Like, so people would watch a show

01:36:01.300 that was on reality television.

01:36:04.100 Do they have it in Canada, reality TV?

01:36:05.520 Yes.

01:36:06.000 So people would watch-

01:36:07.100 We pretty much have everything you have.

01:36:09.100 Okay.

01:36:10.600 Well, you don't want everything we have, so-

01:36:12.260 No, no.

01:36:12.800 No, and we also get some of the stuff

01:36:14.220 that we don't want to have,

01:36:15.800 but we still get it anyways.

01:36:16.700 Sorry.

01:36:17.460 And I want to apologize about that.

01:36:19.120 Yeah.

01:36:20.680 But like people were originally,

01:36:22.380 they would watch a reality show

01:36:23.940 because the shows were like trying to capture

01:36:25.740 like people in their real lives

01:36:27.600 behaving a certain way.

01:36:29.440 But then after like a generation had gone on

01:36:32.300 for some of those shows that were still on-

01:36:34.520 It all became bullshit.

01:36:35.420 Yeah.

01:36:35.540 Well, the people were now,

01:36:38.260 they'd seen people behave a certain way,

01:36:40.480 so they were now just being the characters

01:36:44.420 that they'd already seen.

01:36:45.720 They went on script, yeah.

01:36:46.540 Right.

01:36:47.080 And they don't even do it by,

01:36:50.740 well, you couldn't really have reality TV anymore

01:36:53.140 because the people that grew up watching it

01:36:55.340 were now just impersonating,

01:36:57.240 they were impersonating what they'd seen.

01:36:59.720 Yeah.

01:37:00.000 So now the next contestant a generation later

01:37:02.180 on these same shows

01:37:03.400 were just impersonating what they,

01:37:05.400 so I just,

01:37:06.780 and I noticed it even with like trends

01:37:09.100 like they'll have on social media,

01:37:11.160 people will be like,

01:37:11.680 okay, we'll do this dance,

01:37:13.000 do this thing.

01:37:13.820 I just wonder,

01:37:14.660 do we start to get in this

01:37:16.160 because of the mirror of social media

01:37:19.060 and of our cell phone

01:37:20.040 where we're just impersonating?

01:37:22.180 Yeah.

01:37:22.640 Where we're not even,

01:37:24.780 like how far are we getting

01:37:26.180 from like original ideas and thoughts

01:37:28.100 if generation over generation

01:37:30.300 we just start to impersonate

01:37:31.800 what we've already seen?

01:37:33.000 Yeah.

01:37:33.440 I mean, and that's a problem.

01:37:34.420 And Plato actually starts worrying

01:37:36.040 about that problem way back

01:37:36.980 just with the invention of writing

01:37:38.940 and alphabetic writing.

01:37:41.100 Yeah, I mean,

01:37:42.980 one of the things that happens

01:37:44.640 is like Baudrillard

01:37:47.860 and the, you know,

01:37:48.620 hyper-reality,

01:37:51.240 we start to get,

01:37:52.460 we start to get,

01:37:53.160 our capacity for abstract,

01:37:56.920 imaginary, symbolic thought,

01:37:59.420 which is one of our great gifts,

01:38:00.820 is also, it's adaptive,

01:38:02.880 so it is also something

01:38:04.160 that can be a vehicle

01:38:05.140 of tremendous self-deception.

01:38:07.260 It can cut us off

01:38:08.380 in powerful ways.

01:38:10.160 And one of the ways

01:38:10.980 in which that ability

01:38:12.800 can get sort of twisted

01:38:16.200 and hijacked is,

01:38:17.500 it's an idea from Eric Fromm

01:38:20.320 that he got from the Stoics.

01:38:22.560 We were talking about

01:38:22.980 the Stoics earlier.

01:38:25.620 And so,

01:38:26.460 remember when I was talking about,

01:38:28.260 you know,

01:38:29.060 we're always assuming identities

01:38:31.340 and assigning identities.

01:38:32.840 And I have an agent-arena relationship.

01:38:35.200 That's my existential mode.

01:38:38.100 That's the language we use.

01:38:39.820 We're talking about that.

01:38:40.800 Okay, that's true.

01:38:41.160 When you say agent-arena,

01:38:42.020 what does that mean?

01:38:42.540 That means,

01:38:43.060 that means I'm assuming

01:38:44.400 a certain identity

01:38:45.340 so I can act as an agent.

01:38:47.740 I can pursue goals,

01:38:49.060 solve problems.

01:38:50.360 So, right,

01:38:51.220 and the arena is,

01:38:52.500 the world has,

01:38:53.560 the world makes sense

01:38:54.560 and is shaped.

01:38:55.660 So,

01:38:56.200 I don't go,

01:38:56.880 I don't go in

01:38:57.580 with a tennis racket

01:38:58.460 with my tennis skills

01:38:59.300 into a football stadium.

01:39:00.520 Right,

01:39:01.080 I see what you're saying.

01:39:01.740 Like when I go into a gas station,

01:39:03.780 I go in there

01:39:04.640 and I'm a patron

01:39:06.180 so I don't act like

01:39:07.400 a police officer

01:39:08.400 when I'm in there.

01:39:08.740 Exactly, exactly.

01:39:09.520 I act like a patron

01:39:10.100 in a gas station

01:39:10.780 because that's what fits

01:39:11.660 the world that I'm in.

01:39:12.840 So,

01:39:13.340 that's the agent in the arena.

01:39:14.700 And we can often forget that.

01:39:16.760 And so,

01:39:17.400 one of the personal problems

01:39:19.480 I've wrestled with

01:39:21.260 and I'm still wrestling with it

01:39:22.640 is I will tend to carry

01:39:24.940 the professor persona

01:39:26.200 into areas

01:39:26.980 where it doesn't belong.

01:39:27.840 Oh, I see.

01:39:28.500 Right?

01:39:28.660 And so,

01:39:30.280 that's what I mean

01:39:31.260 of when we're doing it

01:39:32.100 unconsciously,

01:39:33.120 right?

01:39:34.100 Okay,

01:39:34.540 so that's your existential mode

01:39:36.020 when you're doing all of that.

01:39:36.880 Is that okay?

01:39:37.680 Yeah.

01:39:38.220 Okay,

01:39:38.540 and so,

01:39:39.400 Fromm talked about

01:39:40.100 sort of two modes we have

01:39:41.480 and the modes are both

01:39:42.740 needed

01:39:43.760 and they're both organized

01:39:46.600 around different kinds

01:39:48.000 of needs.

01:39:49.060 So,

01:39:49.440 one mode he called

01:39:50.040 the having mode.

01:39:50.800 This is the mode

01:39:51.860 in which you need

01:39:53.860 to have something.

01:39:54.720 You need to have water,

01:39:55.480 you need to have oxygen

01:39:56.440 and it means you need

01:39:57.320 to control it,

01:39:58.180 consume it

01:39:58.760 and you need to have

01:39:59.860 a categorical relationship

01:40:01.000 with it

01:40:01.480 like water.

01:40:03.020 It just has to be water.

01:40:03.860 It doesn't have to be

01:40:04.320 like this particular water.

01:40:06.300 It just has to be

01:40:06.860 healthy water,

01:40:07.700 right?

01:40:08.260 And so,

01:40:08.940 what I do is

01:40:09.940 I'm manipulating

01:40:10.840 and I'm using my intelligence

01:40:12.520 and I'm manipulating

01:40:13.300 and controlling the world

01:40:14.340 and I have what

01:40:15.840 Buber would call

01:40:16.680 an I-it relationship.

01:40:18.260 I'm only relating to this

01:40:19.460 as an it,

01:40:20.260 as a member

01:40:21.900 of a category,

01:40:22.880 right?

01:40:23.120 And that's important

01:40:25.060 because like if you don't

01:40:27.000 have that mode,

01:40:28.080 you're dead.

01:40:29.320 Okay,

01:40:29.500 now there's another mode.

01:40:30.580 He called it the being mode.

01:40:31.780 I'm not totally thrilled

01:40:33.160 with that.

01:40:33.940 This is the mode,

01:40:35.240 these are the needs

01:40:36.000 that are met

01:40:36.440 not by having something

01:40:37.680 but by becoming something.

01:40:38.860 So,

01:40:39.040 you need to be mature.

01:40:41.880 You need to be in love.

01:40:44.060 Notice how we say

01:40:44.560 we have sex

01:40:45.440 but you want to be in love,

01:40:46.900 right?

01:40:47.960 And that's a different mode.

01:40:50.300 So,

01:40:50.880 in that mode,

01:40:51.540 I'm not trying to control

01:40:53.160 and manipulate the world.

01:40:54.220 I'm trying to reciprocally open it.

01:40:56.220 So,

01:40:56.660 I strive to have

01:40:58.340 that relationship

01:40:58.900 with my friends

01:41:00.240 and most importantly

01:41:00.920 with my best friend

01:41:01.780 and partner,

01:41:03.280 Sarah,

01:41:04.020 right?

01:41:04.340 If I treated Sarah

01:41:05.400 like a member

01:41:06.000 of a category,

01:41:06.760 well,

01:41:07.000 Sarah,

01:41:07.440 the reason I'm with you

01:41:08.260 is you remind me

01:41:09.020 of all the other women

01:41:09.640 I've been with

01:41:10.180 and I know how to manipulate

01:41:11.220 and control you

01:41:12.120 and use you

01:41:12.940 to satisfy my needs.

01:41:14.520 That just ended

01:41:15.500 the relationship.

01:41:16.220 What she wants is,

01:41:17.940 no,

01:41:18.100 no,

01:41:18.260 you're not a problem

01:41:19.060 that I'm going to solve.

01:41:19.960 You're a mystery

01:41:20.860 that I'm going to constantly

01:41:22.080 be faithful to.

01:41:24.560 Right?

01:41:25.860 And that's where I'm using

01:41:27.920 not my intelligence.

01:41:30.060 I'm using

01:41:30.540 from means reason

01:41:32.280 but in Plato's sense,

01:41:33.220 not in the modern logical sense.

01:41:34.760 He means that capacity

01:41:35.960 to challenge self-deception

01:41:38.400 and to try

01:41:39.300 and reciprocally open

01:41:41.120 with something.

01:41:41.620 So,

01:41:41.780 those are your being needs,

01:41:42.860 right?

01:41:44.280 And those are important too.

01:41:45.960 And you need both,

01:41:47.540 right?

01:41:47.780 Because you want to have water

01:41:49.200 and you want to be mature.

01:41:50.600 You want food

01:41:51.680 and you want to be honest,

01:41:53.180 right?

01:41:54.980 The problem we get,

01:41:56.620 Fromm says,

01:41:57.300 especially if we're

01:41:58.460 not paying attention

01:42:00.020 to our existential mode,

01:42:01.820 is we will pursue

01:42:03.040 the needs

01:42:04.880 in the wrong frame.

01:42:06.740 So,

01:42:07.040 for example,

01:42:08.620 being need,

01:42:09.480 maturity.

01:42:11.000 Instead of,

01:42:11.960 I'm going to become mature,

01:42:12.900 I'm going to have a car.

01:42:15.120 Instead of being in love,

01:42:16.180 I'm going to have lots of sex.

01:42:17.940 I see.

01:42:19.040 Right?

01:42:19.680 And this is modal confusion.

01:42:21.560 Your existential modes

01:42:22.820 are confused.

01:42:24.320 And when that happens,

01:42:26.500 we confuse.

01:42:27.780 So,

01:42:28.160 quantity on equality,

01:42:29.540 kind of.

01:42:30.180 Yes.

01:42:30.660 Yes.

01:42:31.000 Kind of a blanket statement,

01:42:32.340 but yes.

01:42:33.220 So,

01:42:33.900 let's back to your point.

01:42:34.980 Social media,

01:42:36.400 what you want

01:42:37.500 is you have a being need.

01:42:39.140 You need to be

01:42:40.060 in relationship

01:42:41.020 with people,

01:42:41.900 but now you have

01:42:43.300 connections.

01:42:43.900 You need to

01:42:45.920 be real,

01:42:47.420 but now you have

01:42:48.620 a script.

01:42:49.420 Do you see what keeps happening?

01:42:50.820 What happens,

01:42:51.880 and Fromm's point is

01:42:53.280 our culture,

01:42:54.840 right,

01:42:55.720 is largely,

01:42:57.500 he called it,

01:42:58.400 like,

01:42:59.520 Fromm's a Marxist,

01:43:00.320 I'm not a Marxist,

01:43:01.100 but he called it

01:43:02.320 the market character,

01:43:03.860 right?

01:43:04.280 He said,

01:43:05.100 what happens is

01:43:06.520 we are increasingly

01:43:08.500 led

01:43:09.380 to

01:43:10.540 trying to pursue

01:43:12.120 not only our

01:43:13.300 having modes,

01:43:13.980 but all of our being

01:43:14.880 needs from within

01:43:15.960 the having mode,

01:43:16.920 because if I can get you

01:43:18.200 to pursue your being needs

01:43:19.400 within the having mode,

01:43:20.200 I can sell you stuff.

01:43:21.460 I can sell you stuff,

01:43:22.640 I can sell you ideas,

01:43:23.700 I can manipulate you

01:43:24.560 with political ideas,

01:43:25.860 so there's a lot

01:43:27.220 to be gained

01:43:27.900 by bullshitting you,

01:43:29.540 right?

01:43:30.060 Constantly keeping you

01:43:31.420 with salience,

01:43:33.160 but you don't ever

01:43:34.040 pursue the truth

01:43:34.940 of what your needs

01:43:35.840 really are,

01:43:37.100 but constantly

01:43:38.200 giving you the salience

01:43:39.060 and drawing you in.

01:43:41.580 But we benefit that

01:43:43.200 in a way,

01:43:43.960 because if I continue

01:43:45.060 to bite at the

01:43:47.180 fool's gold bait,

01:43:49.760 right,

01:43:50.260 of those types of things,

01:43:51.420 if I continue to,

01:43:52.980 it keeps me away

01:43:54.180 from really having

01:43:55.040 to look at myself.

01:43:56.200 Yes.

01:43:56.980 Because it can be

01:43:57.900 very painful

01:43:58.700 to really sit

01:44:00.560 and look at myself

01:44:01.900 and my history

01:44:02.660 and my past

01:44:03.360 if I'm not doing it

01:44:04.320 in a loving way

01:44:05.240 and an accepting way.

01:44:07.100 And think about

01:44:07.480 how that's made

01:44:08.060 even worse.

01:44:09.680 That's astute

01:44:10.480 what you just said.

01:44:11.420 So there's an

01:44:12.200 outer dimension

01:44:12.820 of how we're being

01:44:13.400 misled,

01:44:14.200 and then there's

01:44:14.800 the inner dimension

01:44:15.520 of how we're avoidant.

01:44:16.700 And think about

01:44:17.200 how hard it is

01:44:18.240 for you to confront pain

01:44:19.580 if you don't have

01:44:20.500 a sacred canopy

01:44:21.500 and ecology is a practice

01:44:22.960 that can give meaning

01:44:23.980 to the pain.

01:44:24.660 People can undergo

01:44:25.880 tremendous pain

01:44:27.120 if it is made

01:44:28.260 meaningful to them.

01:44:29.600 I'm working

01:44:30.240 with somebody right now,

01:44:31.180 she's done interventions

01:44:32.220 around pain management

01:44:33.900 and like people,

01:44:36.620 like people,

01:44:37.260 think about,

01:44:37.820 here,

01:44:38.060 let me give you

01:44:38.600 a reason.

01:44:39.800 So what are the things

01:44:40.640 people,

01:44:40.860 oh,

01:44:41.040 I want money

01:44:41.720 and I want to feel

01:44:42.400 comfortable,

01:44:43.180 I want to feel

01:44:43.540 sort of good,

01:44:44.860 you know,

01:44:45.080 I want good sleep,

01:44:45.940 good health,

01:44:46.580 you know,

01:44:46.940 I want my partner

01:44:47.980 and I to get along

01:44:48.880 really well.

01:44:49.620 You know what will

01:44:50.180 destroy all of those?

01:44:51.660 Have a kid.

01:44:52.780 Yeah.

01:44:53.340 Have a child.

01:44:54.420 Your health goes down,

01:44:55.540 your finances go down,

01:44:57.400 right,

01:44:57.580 you're sick all the time,

01:44:58.540 you're wet for some reason

01:44:59.440 all the time,

01:45:00.020 there's alarms going off,

01:45:00.960 you don't sleep,

01:45:01.480 each partner's convinced

01:45:04.420 the other one's not

01:45:05.040 doing enough work

01:45:05.500 and you ask people,

01:45:06.660 why do you do that?

01:45:08.400 Why do you give up

01:45:09.080 on all of those things

01:45:10.740 and they'll say,

01:45:11.900 because having a kid

01:45:12.640 is so meaningful.

01:45:14.100 Remember,

01:45:14.540 I'm connected to something

01:45:15.780 that has a reality

01:45:16.880 and a value

01:45:17.760 beyond my egocentric concerns.

01:45:19.900 I want it to exist

01:45:21.000 even if I don't

01:45:21.860 and I want to care for it,

01:45:23.540 I want to make a difference

01:45:24.560 to it and it's magical.

01:45:26.140 Like if you love a child,

01:45:28.600 right,

01:45:28.740 you turn this being,

01:45:31.300 I mean,

01:45:31.540 they're morally people

01:45:32.540 right from the beginning,

01:45:33.300 but cognitively,

01:45:34.320 they're not people,

01:45:35.300 right,

01:45:35.500 and it's like magic.

01:45:37.240 You love them

01:45:37.960 and they turn into persons,

01:45:39.540 right,

01:45:39.800 and like it's just,

01:45:41.000 right,

01:45:41.340 and so when people can go,

01:45:43.980 they will sacrifice a lot

01:45:45.800 if they have a reasonable hope

01:45:48.180 that there'll be meaning in it,

01:45:49.600 but if we're in a meaning crisis

01:45:51.320 and meaning scarcity,

01:45:52.820 they won't make any

01:45:53.740 of those sacrifices,

01:45:54.880 they won't face pain.

01:45:56.220 Don't tell somebody,

01:45:57.140 face your pain,

01:45:57.940 feel your emotions

01:45:58.880 if they can't bring meaning to it,

01:46:01.000 if they can't have practices

01:46:02.340 to confront it

01:46:03.160 and bring wise discernment.

01:46:04.940 So you're right,

01:46:05.820 it makes it even worse.

01:46:06.980 So not only are they being

01:46:08.040 bullshitted from without,

01:46:09.600 they're being starved,

01:46:10.960 your nourishment metaphor,

01:46:12.340 they're being starved within

01:46:13.720 of the meaning

01:46:14.380 that would allow them

01:46:15.180 to make that confrontation

01:46:16.780 and you're right,

01:46:17.760 those two things feed on each other

01:46:19.400 and we get really reciprocally narrow,

01:46:21.720 we get really bound

01:46:22.660 into this profound modal confusion

01:46:24.200 and like you said,

01:46:25.360 it's fool's gold,

01:46:26.080 it's not actually satisfying it

01:46:27.540 so we pursue,

01:46:28.380 I need more cars,

01:46:29.180 I need more sex,

01:46:30.160 I need more drugs,

01:46:30.880 whatever it is

01:46:31.600 and then we get lost

01:46:32.960 in a profound way.

01:46:34.360 Well,

01:46:34.540 we're at the end of the line

01:46:35.520 with it it feels like,

01:46:36.400 I mean we're watching,

01:46:37.560 there's television shows

01:46:38.760 called American Greed,

01:46:40.700 it's like we're sitting here

01:46:42.040 watching the,

01:46:43.160 you know,

01:46:43.780 we're watching like

01:46:44.860 every hero

01:46:45.920 becomes a villain

01:46:46.940 because they fall

01:46:47.840 to their own devices

01:46:49.600 of addictions

01:46:51.700 or small things

01:46:52.800 that whatever

01:46:53.220 little things

01:46:54.100 that they let fester

01:46:55.120 while they were

01:46:56.140 trying to achieve grander,

01:46:58.660 it's like

01:46:59.000 we're just realizing

01:47:01.360 that there's no,

01:47:03.220 I think the avenue

01:47:04.460 of this

01:47:05.260 capitalistic,

01:47:07.800 I don't know what it is,

01:47:08.620 I can't figure out

01:47:09.380 what it is

01:47:10.360 that's led us

01:47:11.640 so astray

01:47:12.620 though sometimes

01:47:13.540 but I think

01:47:14.760 we are as a group

01:47:15.720 or realizing

01:47:16.620 that it's,

01:47:18.060 that we are astray

01:47:19.220 it feels like.

01:47:20.520 I think so too

01:47:21.200 and you know

01:47:21.980 and Fromm predicted,

01:47:22.980 he predicted

01:47:23.460 that eventually

01:47:24.200 he made the argument

01:47:27.500 that when we're

01:47:27.960 in profound

01:47:28.400 modal confusion

01:47:29.200 what we would

01:47:29.800 eventually do

01:47:30.700 and he was part

01:47:31.680 of the person

01:47:32.040 that inspired me

01:47:32.660 when I made

01:47:33.060 that prediction

01:47:33.560 I talked about earlier

01:47:34.380 is we will seek

01:47:36.560 the last connection

01:47:37.780 we have with reality

01:47:38.980 which is violent

01:47:39.820 destructiveness.

01:47:40.740 If I can't connect

01:47:41.720 to it,

01:47:42.240 the last connection

01:47:42.960 I can have

01:47:43.500 is at least

01:47:44.080 I will be the one

01:47:44.800 that destroys it.

01:47:46.040 Wow.

01:47:47.780 Really?

01:47:48.760 Yes.

01:47:50.240 Think of movie Joker

01:47:51.420 right and just

01:47:52.340 that movie's

01:47:53.520 just,

01:47:54.120 it's almost

01:47:54.620 like a hymn

01:47:55.160 to that.

01:47:56.220 Yeah,

01:47:56.460 I mean think

01:47:56.800 and look at schools

01:47:57.560 people walking

01:47:58.420 into schools

01:47:59.060 and shooting people.

01:48:00.140 That's a symptom

01:48:00.760 of the meaning crisis.

01:48:01.580 Look at suicide,

01:48:02.580 look at,

01:48:03.140 you know,

01:48:04.240 we had a corner on

01:48:05.160 and he was saying

01:48:05.640 the number one

01:48:06.240 cause of death

01:48:07.060 in black communities

01:48:08.800 is gun violence

01:48:09.540 and the number one

01:48:09.920 cause of death

01:48:10.520 in white communities

01:48:11.460 is overdosing.

01:48:13.080 Yeah.

01:48:13.300 It's like people

01:48:14.200 are just finding

01:48:15.040 a mean,

01:48:15.900 you know,

01:48:16.160 there's,

01:48:16.860 we're at,

01:48:17.800 it feels like

01:48:18.900 we're in a cul-de-sac

01:48:20.140 of hope in a way.

01:48:23.140 Yeah,

01:48:23.460 I think so.

01:48:24.320 We're in a place

01:48:25.340 where,

01:48:25.960 like,

01:48:27.080 we're really,

01:48:27.860 we're narrowed down,

01:48:29.940 we're locked in,

01:48:31.160 but like I said,

01:48:32.840 there's also,

01:48:33.900 those are all

01:48:34.320 the negative symptoms.

01:48:35.240 Right, right,

01:48:35.600 and I know,

01:48:36.060 and I hate to be,

01:48:37.120 I don't want to try

01:48:37.720 to be too negative either.

01:48:39.160 No,

01:48:39.360 there's positive symptoms too,

01:48:40.680 right,

01:48:41.040 and like if you look,

01:48:42.580 I'm just using an analogy,

01:48:43.740 if you look at a disease,

01:48:44.580 you look not at only

01:48:45.380 the negative symptoms,

01:48:46.360 you look at how the body

01:48:47.120 is trying to heal itself,

01:48:48.580 how it's trying to repair,

01:48:49.740 because that might give you

01:48:50.860 hope,

01:48:51.980 rational hope,

01:48:52.760 for how you could actually

01:48:53.640 cure the disease.

01:48:54.640 But you see other things

01:48:55.400 happening,

01:48:56.220 like,

01:48:56.780 and even in those things

01:48:58.080 you'll see the mixture.

01:48:59.120 So the mindfulness revolution

01:49:00.480 is,

01:49:01.980 like,

01:49:02.120 I think I was the first person

01:49:03.400 to teach about mindfulness

01:49:04.800 academically

01:49:05.360 at the University of Toronto

01:49:06.300 and I had to sort of

01:49:06.900 introduce it,

01:49:07.520 like,

01:49:07.900 within the middle of another

01:49:08.760 lecture,

01:49:09.440 and we're just talking

01:49:10.240 about mindfulness.

01:49:10.920 There's actually a lot

01:49:11.580 of experimental work,

01:49:12.520 right?

01:49:13.080 Now everybody talks about it,

01:49:14.300 there's journals,

01:49:15.360 but the mindfulness revolution

01:49:16.960 is an attempt to start

01:49:18.500 bringing back the cultivation.

01:49:20.140 Now,

01:49:20.580 it's also getting commodified,

01:49:22.560 and we have what's now

01:49:23.360 called McMindfulness.

01:49:24.720 Mindfulness,

01:49:25.340 if you look in the cultures,

01:49:27.520 like if you look in

01:49:28.060 Buddhist cultures,

01:49:28.680 or you even look back

01:49:29.660 into Christian Neoplatonism,

01:49:31.360 the monastic traditions,

01:49:33.380 mindfulness is this rich

01:49:34.800 ecology of practices,

01:49:36.060 there's meditative practices,

01:49:37.540 contemplative practices,

01:49:39.360 right?

01:49:39.780 There's sitted practices,

01:49:41.280 there's all this,

01:49:42.840 right?

01:49:43.020 And then what we did

01:49:44.060 is we took one practice,

01:49:45.460 meditation,

01:49:46.840 sitted meditation,

01:49:47.940 and we said,

01:49:49.160 that's all mindfulness is,

01:49:50.520 and then we took it

01:49:51.220 out of that rich thing.

01:49:52.100 We took it out

01:49:52.560 of the broader framework

01:49:53.560 of ethical practices

01:49:54.800 and philosophical practices,

01:49:56.160 so it's not about

01:49:57.220 transforming you

01:49:57.880 in the world,

01:49:58.580 it's about making you

01:49:59.820 contented with being

01:50:00.960 a corporate drone,

01:50:03.020 right?

01:50:03.220 And so,

01:50:04.000 but still,

01:50:05.260 there's a positive,

01:50:05.980 you see what I mean?

01:50:06.440 There's a positive

01:50:07.040 and negative in there.

01:50:08.060 The Stoicism is going

01:50:09.080 through a huge revival

01:50:10.200 right now,

01:50:11.180 right?

01:50:11.700 There's,

01:50:12.120 like there's a revival

01:50:13.760 of interest in

01:50:14.820 Eastern Orthodox Christianity

01:50:16.460 because I think

01:50:17.180 one of the reasons,

01:50:18.160 I've had great conversations

01:50:19.260 with both Jonathan Pajot

01:50:20.480 and Bishop Maximus,

01:50:22.120 both good friends of mine,

01:50:23.480 because Eastern Orthodox

01:50:26.060 Christianity has the imaginal

01:50:27.800 in it and has

01:50:28.560 Neoplatonism in it.

01:50:30.300 So,

01:50:31.020 imagine if you took

01:50:31.760 Plato and Aristotle

01:50:33.200 and the Stoics

01:50:34.520 and you integrated

01:50:35.560 them together,

01:50:36.240 so not only was it

01:50:37.520 a great philosophical system,

01:50:39.640 it was a profound

01:50:40.520 ecology of practices.

01:50:41.640 That's Neoplatonism

01:50:42.540 and that's what's coming back.

01:50:44.320 I consider myself

01:50:45.040 a Neoplatonist,

01:50:46.200 right?

01:50:46.460 And so,

01:50:47.100 there's lots of,

01:50:48.340 there's all these

01:50:48.960 dialogical communities

01:50:50.300 emerging,

01:50:51.000 there's things like

01:50:51.600 Rafe's Evolve,

01:50:52.360 Move, Play,

01:50:53.180 there's Guy Sendstocks

01:50:54.200 circling,

01:50:55.020 there's the work

01:50:55.580 that Taylor Barrett does,

01:50:56.780 like all the stuff

01:50:57.640 we're doing

01:50:58.120 and we're just one

01:50:59.480 amongst many.

01:51:00.300 Yeah,

01:51:00.960 well it's interesting

01:51:01.980 to hear people,

01:51:03.300 you know,

01:51:03.700 yeah,

01:51:04.020 people are thirsty

01:51:05.060 for something.

01:51:06.320 They're thirsty

01:51:06.880 for something new,

01:51:08.120 I think,

01:51:09.260 or they're just

01:51:10.240 a new being

01:51:11.080 and they're thirsty

01:51:11.840 for something.

01:51:12.600 Well,

01:51:12.760 you know,

01:51:12.980 that's the thing.

01:51:14.060 And Plato had this

01:51:14.860 weird thing where he said

01:51:15.900 you don't really learn,

01:51:16.740 you're just always

01:51:17.440 remembering something

01:51:18.180 you didn't know

01:51:19.560 but you did know.

01:51:20.560 And people have sort

01:51:21.960 of struggled with this.

01:51:23.320 But here's something

01:51:24.020 that people say

01:51:24.720 when we're doing

01:51:25.280 like the dialectic

01:51:26.220 into the Logos

01:51:26.920 or the philosophical

01:51:27.560 fellowship,

01:51:28.080 they'll say things

01:51:29.620 like that's a form

01:51:32.400 of intimacy

01:51:33.020 I never knew about

01:51:34.600 but I realized

01:51:35.400 I've always been

01:51:36.100 looking for.

01:51:38.140 That's what they say

01:51:39.120 and it's so,

01:51:39.900 and that's so paradoxical

01:51:40.980 to hear

01:51:41.340 but when you're in it

01:51:42.400 you understand perfectly

01:51:43.540 what they're talking about.

01:51:46.140 They broke

01:51:47.000 that modal confusion.

01:51:48.860 They break through it.

01:51:49.820 Dirk Brook,

01:51:50.440 they break,

01:51:50.820 you know,

01:51:51.080 Meister Eckert,

01:51:51.760 they break through it,

01:51:53.260 right?

01:51:53.480 He's a Christian Neoplatonist.

01:51:54.560 They break through

01:51:55.600 and they break through

01:51:56.720 the modal confusion

01:51:57.460 and so they were hungry for it

01:51:59.820 but their framing

01:52:00.500 hadn't been well.

01:52:01.960 That's one of the things

01:52:02.600 I love about going

01:52:03.320 to a lot of different

01:52:04.100 recovery meetings.

01:52:04.940 Sometimes you sit in there

01:52:06.180 you're just waiting

01:52:06.920 for somebody

01:52:07.700 to say something

01:52:09.220 the way that you

01:52:11.740 have always wanted

01:52:12.980 to say it

01:52:13.540 but you couldn't put

01:52:14.460 like the seven

01:52:15.120 or eight words together.

01:52:16.000 Isn't that a gift

01:52:16.500 when that happens?

01:52:17.800 It's unbelievable

01:52:18.880 and I'll go

01:52:20.320 three or four times a week

01:52:21.480 just hoping to hear

01:52:22.680 one guy says something

01:52:24.320 and I will literally feel like

01:52:25.940 my body will do that

01:52:28.760 and you can hear

01:52:29.600 someone's hear

01:52:30.020 other people in the room

01:52:31.160 it's almost like

01:52:31.680 a collective sigh.

01:52:34.020 That's amazing.

01:52:35.540 Yes,

01:52:35.840 that's the embodiment,

01:52:37.100 right?

01:52:37.500 And that's the soul,

01:52:39.140 right?

01:52:39.340 And there's also the spirit.

01:52:40.460 You're both getting

01:52:41.280 to a place

01:52:41.760 you couldn't get to

01:52:42.600 and I'm going to use this word

01:52:44.520 and I don't,

01:52:45.660 I mean it positively

01:52:46.700 and I'm not trying

01:52:47.480 to slot you

01:52:48.060 but you know

01:52:48.920 those are the recovery meetings

01:52:50.360 and I've done,

01:52:51.300 you know,

01:52:51.940 I've attended AA

01:52:53.240 and some other things

01:52:54.180 but and many of them

01:52:56.840 are explicitly at least

01:52:57.940 were born in a religious

01:52:59.520 but they're religious practices

01:53:01.380 in the way we've been talking

01:53:02.280 about.

01:53:02.640 You're cultivating wisdom

01:53:03.680 and transformation

01:53:04.700 how to face yourself

01:53:06.000 how to cultivate connection,

01:53:08.160 right?

01:53:08.580 This is and you're doing it

01:53:09.920 individually

01:53:10.480 and collectively,

01:53:11.960 right?

01:53:12.820 And yes,

01:53:13.620 and I notice

01:53:16.040 and this is not,

01:53:17.580 this is an observation,

01:53:18.380 it's not a criticism,

01:53:19.380 like you keep returning

01:53:21.040 to this

01:53:21.600 as a lived example

01:53:23.800 in your body

01:53:24.760 lived example

01:53:25.500 of what we're talking about,

01:53:26.740 right?

01:53:27.440 And so,

01:53:27.880 but what I'm asking you

01:53:29.440 to now consider is

01:53:30.200 there's lots of possibility,

01:53:32.060 there's lots of variations

01:53:33.080 on this theme

01:53:34.100 that are arising everywhere

01:53:35.960 and they're getting

01:53:36.640 scientific understanding,

01:53:38.200 they're networking

01:53:38.900 into a subculture

01:53:40.560 and that gives me

01:53:41.900 rational hope.

01:53:44.640 Yeah.

01:53:45.600 Well,

01:53:46.080 I mean,

01:53:46.320 I think it's,

01:53:46.900 it's the,

01:53:47.420 it's the thing

01:53:48.020 like when things get bad,

01:53:49.100 they're always,

01:53:50.620 throughout time,

01:53:52.220 it seems like

01:53:52.740 there's always been

01:53:54.060 like,

01:53:54.580 uh,

01:53:55.240 in every story,

01:53:58.740 there's the moment

01:54:00.380 where you think

01:54:01.120 things are,

01:54:01.660 where things get bad

01:54:02.740 and they get good.

01:54:04.540 It's like,

01:54:05.020 it's that feeling

01:54:06.460 inside of you

01:54:06.940 that this has to end well.

01:54:08.680 I think that,

01:54:09.960 that little pilot light

01:54:11.680 of that,

01:54:12.440 it feels like it,

01:54:14.200 it perseveres

01:54:15.400 no matter what,

01:54:16.500 you know?

01:54:17.280 Um,

01:54:17.860 well,

01:54:18.120 it can get blown out.

01:54:19.460 Uh,

01:54:20.280 like we do some work with,

01:54:21.540 I agree with you

01:54:22.280 about that pilot light.

01:54:23.320 By the way,

01:54:24.100 think of it,

01:54:24.620 not just as a pilot light,

01:54:25.740 but like what a pilot

01:54:26.800 used to be,

01:54:27.360 a pilot of an airplane

01:54:28.180 or a pilot of a ship,

01:54:29.200 right?

01:54:29.700 It's a guiding light,

01:54:30.580 right?

01:54:31.120 Well,

01:54:31.300 I think it's not even

01:54:32.220 my own pilot light,

01:54:33.680 but I think it's

01:54:34.260 the collective pilot light

01:54:35.780 that,

01:54:36.080 that's the one

01:54:36.860 that I feel like

01:54:37.680 wins in the end.

01:54:38.980 Yeah.

01:54:39.200 I don't know if us

01:54:40.460 as individuals,

01:54:41.280 if we win.

01:54:42.060 That's an excellent distinction

01:54:43.180 because we're doing

01:54:44.040 some work,

01:54:44.680 myself and some of my,

01:54:46.220 my colleagues,

01:54:46.980 graduate students,

01:54:48.220 of vets who have

01:54:49.340 post-traumatic stress disorder

01:54:50.680 and their,

01:54:51.580 their internal light

01:54:53.840 has in some sense

01:54:54.960 been blown out.

01:54:55.740 But I like what you said.

01:54:57.140 One of the things

01:54:57.900 we're trying to do

01:54:58.500 is see if they can

01:54:59.360 catch it from each other

01:55:00.520 again.

01:55:02.400 And trying to bring

01:55:03.240 about interventions

01:55:03.960 that can bring that about.

01:55:06.000 So,

01:55:06.520 remember I mentioned

01:55:07.120 Paul Tillich,

01:55:07.680 the courage to be,

01:55:08.300 he had a,

01:55:08.640 there's a Greek word

01:55:09.280 for this

01:55:09.640 and it's from

01:55:09.980 the Christian tradition.

01:55:11.600 It's kairos

01:55:12.560 and it means,

01:55:13.700 it means the right timing

01:55:15.580 that where,

01:55:16.080 the time where time,

01:55:18.120 where the course

01:55:18.760 of things turns.

01:55:20.360 And the kairos

01:55:21.020 is always a place

01:55:22.580 in which multiple opportunities.

01:55:25.860 So,

01:55:26.300 like,

01:55:26.920 you know,

01:55:27.660 the,

01:55:27.880 you know,

01:55:28.200 the Bronze Age collapse,

01:55:29.480 civilizations can collapse too,

01:55:31.080 right?

01:55:31.540 And so,

01:55:32.400 right,

01:55:32.840 yeah,

01:55:33.140 we're at this

01:55:33.780 very crucial time.

01:55:34.780 Now,

01:55:35.200 the,

01:55:35.520 the,

01:55:35.760 it's a dangerous time,

01:55:37.640 but the advantage

01:55:38.540 of a kairos is,

01:55:39.600 okay,

01:55:39.740 when everything is going

01:55:40.480 really well,

01:55:41.040 a system is really stable

01:55:42.500 and it has a lot of inertia

01:55:43.900 and it's hard to make a difference.

01:55:45.320 But when things are breaking up,

01:55:46.800 this is called

01:55:47.260 self-organizing criticality,

01:55:48.560 then individuals

01:55:49.620 can make a difference

01:55:50.460 that they can't,

01:55:51.220 you normally make

01:55:52.000 when thing,

01:55:52.740 so don't look at,

01:55:54.320 like,

01:55:54.580 well,

01:55:54.700 things have always been this way

01:55:55.760 because if we're actually

01:55:56.900 in a crisis,

01:55:57.960 a kairos,

01:55:59.000 then your capacity

01:56:00.500 as an individual

01:56:01.200 to make a difference

01:56:01.920 has been increased.

01:56:02.940 Wow,

01:56:03.620 man,

01:56:03.880 that's awesome.

01:56:05.020 You know,

01:56:05.420 that's really awesome,

01:56:06.360 man,

01:56:06.580 and that's something

01:56:07.200 that I think,

01:56:07.900 yeah,

01:56:08.100 I'm grateful to hear

01:56:08.780 that today,

01:56:09.920 you know,

01:56:10.240 and I think,

01:56:11.060 and not to give us

01:56:12.240 the insight

01:56:12.760 that we are gods

01:56:13.800 or that we,

01:56:14.620 but just that you can,

01:56:15.880 this is,

01:56:16.460 never has the road

01:56:17.660 been set more

01:56:18.500 when you can have an impact.

01:56:20.040 That's right.

01:56:20.460 You know,

01:56:20.920 because that's just the way

01:56:22.120 that the chips are stacked,

01:56:23.120 so what a blessing

01:56:24.100 for you to be able

01:56:25.520 to have an impact right now

01:56:26.940 if you do something good,

01:56:28.060 if you do something positive,

01:56:29.180 if you choose to take

01:56:30.400 the road

01:56:31.300 that builds up

01:56:32.560 your self-worth

01:56:34.920 more than the,

01:56:36.140 the,

01:56:36.440 the just feeling good

01:56:38.780 in the moment,

01:56:39.560 you know,

01:56:40.460 that's,

01:56:41.940 that's inspiring,

01:56:42.780 man.

01:56:43.500 What,

01:56:43.880 when you think of,

01:56:44.800 like,

01:56:45.980 what about,

01:56:46.680 like,

01:56:46.840 love,

01:56:47.360 like,

01:56:47.560 people look at love

01:56:48.500 a lot,

01:56:49.000 you know?

01:56:49.340 Yes.

01:56:49.600 Have you been in love before?

01:56:51.180 I'm in love right now.

01:56:52.120 Okay.

01:56:52.600 So you have a partner now

01:56:53.900 and y'all have children?

01:56:55.320 No.

01:56:55.980 I,

01:56:56.220 I,

01:56:56.400 I've,

01:56:56.600 I have children

01:56:58.000 from a previous marriage.

01:56:59.560 She has children

01:57:00.260 from a previous marriage

01:57:01.180 and we're,

01:57:01.860 we're done.

01:57:02.320 We've raised children.

01:57:03.800 Her children,

01:57:04.740 who to,

01:57:05.220 her two children are adults.

01:57:06.920 My two children

01:57:07.760 are now adults.

01:57:08.860 Okay.

01:57:09.320 But y'all have,

01:57:09.980 you've had children now.

01:57:11.340 Yeah.

01:57:11.820 Yeah.

01:57:11.980 And there's,

01:57:12.640 yeah,

01:57:13.740 yeah,

01:57:14.180 yeah.

01:57:14.480 and,

01:57:16.220 but I am in love now

01:57:17.860 and I also love,

01:57:21.220 like,

01:57:23.640 my kids.

01:57:25.260 I love my friends

01:57:27.040 but I've also been learning

01:57:29.580 to love the world

01:57:31.160 and reality

01:57:33.080 and being

01:57:34.340 and in that sense,

01:57:36.340 like agape,

01:57:37.480 you know,

01:57:37.660 the love that makes us,

01:57:38.840 like we were talking about earlier,

01:57:39.660 the love that turns us

01:57:40.500 into human beings,

01:57:41.460 you know,

01:57:41.640 the Bible,

01:57:42.480 I'm not a Christian

01:57:42.940 but the Bible said,

01:57:43.680 you know,

01:57:43.880 God is agape,

01:57:46.000 like finding that reciprocal opening,

01:57:48.080 that sacredness,

01:57:49.200 finding the deep connections

01:57:50.240 between logos,

01:57:51.800 that spirit of making sense of things

01:57:54.040 that emerges between people,

01:57:55.260 the agape

01:57:55.740 by which we make each other

01:57:57.260 into people

01:57:57.740 but it also connects us

01:57:59.220 deeper to reality.

01:58:01.020 The deep within

01:58:02.240 is calling to the deep without

01:58:03.460 and they call to each other.

01:58:05.360 I'm in love with all of that.

01:58:07.000 Yeah.

01:58:08.120 Did you,

01:58:09.280 do you think that,

01:58:12.280 Theo,

01:58:13.600 I think,

01:58:14.160 I think if you ask me

01:58:15.660 in the elevator,

01:58:16.460 John,

01:58:16.660 you have 20 seconds.

01:58:19.640 This is what I would say,

01:58:20.940 learn to love wisely.

01:58:24.060 That's it.

01:58:25.900 Like,

01:58:26.300 it's really hard.

01:58:29.140 Most of my failings

01:58:30.220 have become,

01:58:30.840 that I did not love wisely.

01:58:32.980 I loved foolishly.

01:58:33.860 I think you could understand sin

01:58:35.340 as a failure to love wisely.

01:58:39.820 Sorry,

01:58:40.220 I interrupted you

01:58:40.760 but I just wanted to express that.

01:58:42.540 No,

01:58:42.720 I appreciate you expressing that.

01:58:44.620 Yeah,

01:58:44.840 I think I've done that

01:58:45.780 a lot of times.

01:58:46.960 I think sometimes it's,

01:58:48.080 there's things that are easier to love

01:58:50.080 and it's not even love,

01:58:51.180 it's not even love,

01:58:52.100 it's like a lust,

01:58:53.020 even of your imagination.

01:58:54.300 Yeah.

01:58:54.640 Or even if you can,

01:58:55.620 anything can lust.

01:58:56.880 It doesn't have to be just like

01:58:58.300 of your groin or whatever,

01:59:00.020 you know.

01:59:00.520 Yeah.

01:59:00.760 It can be of,

01:59:02.120 of any,

01:59:02.640 you can,

01:59:03.100 fame.

01:59:03.840 Fame.

01:59:04.360 Yeah,

01:59:04.680 fame,

01:59:05.220 food,

01:59:05.780 food,

01:59:06.260 sugar.

01:59:07.200 Yeah,

01:59:07.520 I went through that.

01:59:08.360 Yeah.

01:59:08.760 Yeah,

01:59:08.980 yeah.

01:59:09.500 Oh God,

01:59:10.320 dude,

01:59:10.480 I eat a whole bag of damn

01:59:11.620 Dove dark chocolates.

01:59:12.940 Yeah,

01:59:13.220 yeah,

01:59:13.500 yeah.

01:59:14.080 And I'll do it again sometimes.

01:59:15.920 I miss the chocolate.

01:59:16.880 It's one of the things I had to give up

01:59:18.140 when I was diagnosed with diabetes.

01:59:19.540 Oh God,

01:59:20.480 dude,

01:59:20.720 they get you.

01:59:23.340 Yeah,

01:59:23.740 how crucial is that to people,

01:59:25.400 to,

01:59:25.720 to,

01:59:25.880 to the success,

01:59:26.780 of their survival,

01:59:27.720 do you think?

01:59:29.640 Love?

01:59:31.020 Well,

01:59:31.360 I mean,

01:59:32.000 again,

01:59:33.880 lust,

01:59:34.460 lust is when we're pursuing love

01:59:38.060 from the having mode.

01:59:39.600 Right.

01:59:40.240 Okay.

01:59:40.640 So,

01:59:41.200 you,

01:59:41.420 you,

01:59:41.720 you need to have sex.

01:59:43.880 Like,

01:59:44.560 I mean,

01:59:45.160 we,

01:59:45.300 we got into the mistake of thinking,

01:59:46.520 no,

01:59:46.660 no,

01:59:46.780 we don't need that,

01:59:47.500 that,

01:59:47.740 and that mess,

01:59:48.500 that messes people up.

01:59:49.780 Yeah.

01:59:50.120 Right?

01:59:50.700 And then we do the other thing.

01:59:51.860 No,

01:59:52.080 no,

01:59:52.260 no,

01:59:52.480 no,

01:59:52.660 you need,

01:59:53.000 like,

01:59:53.320 you'll get love by just having lots of sex,

01:59:56.000 and that,

01:59:56.960 that now we're in that,

01:59:57.780 the other,

01:59:58.320 we just went the other way.

01:59:59.500 Right.

02:00:00.100 And so,

02:00:00.880 I mean,

02:00:01.480 love is,

02:00:03.360 love is like,

02:00:04.380 love,

02:00:04.660 the thing is we're really confused.

02:00:06.380 First of all,

02:00:06.840 love isn't a feeling.

02:00:07.680 You know,

02:00:10.220 I'm in love with Sarah right now,

02:00:12.540 and until I mentioned those words,

02:00:14.080 I wasn't feeling anything.

02:00:15.280 Right.

02:00:15.620 Right?

02:00:15.900 Love isn't an emotion.

02:00:17.760 I'm in love with Sarah,

02:00:19.220 and sometimes that makes me sad.

02:00:21.100 I miss her right now a lot.

02:00:23.040 Right?

02:00:23.580 Sometimes it makes me angry.

02:00:25.280 You're threatening Sarah.

02:00:26.700 I'm,

02:00:27.120 no,

02:00:27.400 you're not going to do that.

02:00:28.580 Right?

02:00:28.960 And sometimes it makes me really happy.

02:00:31.360 Sometimes it makes me very thoughtful.

02:00:32.820 Wow.

02:00:33.840 I,

02:00:34.020 I just realized I really don't know her,

02:00:36.360 and that's wonderful.

02:00:37.100 So love isn't even an emotion.

02:00:39.160 Love is an existential stance.

02:00:41.760 It's,

02:00:42.660 I am,

02:00:43.300 you and I,

02:00:44.160 we're going to religio,

02:00:44.900 we're going to bind ourselves,

02:00:46.580 so we reciprocally open,

02:00:48.140 so you draw the best out in me,

02:00:50.720 I draw the best out in you,

02:00:52.360 you transcend yourself through me,

02:00:54.360 and I transcend myself through you,

02:00:56.160 and we keep realizing that that is such amazing mystery

02:01:00.060 that it keeps happening.

02:01:01.200 We're going to be faithful to it.

02:01:02.660 It's a commitment.

02:01:03.900 Yeah.

02:01:04.200 It's a commitment,

02:01:05.240 but it's not a commitment.

02:01:06.220 Like,

02:01:06.900 the Greeks had,

02:01:07.760 the Greeks.

02:01:08.100 It's not a prison.

02:01:08.940 No,

02:01:09.440 and the Greeks had,

02:01:10.220 the Greeks have two words,

02:01:12.000 right?

02:01:12.380 There's,

02:01:12.800 in kratia,

02:01:13.740 like democracy,

02:01:14.800 kratia,

02:01:15.180 power.

02:01:15.860 So in kratia is when you,

02:01:17.280 you commit by like,

02:01:18.880 I'm not going to,

02:01:19.500 I'm not going to eat the chocolate.

02:01:20.960 I'm not going to do it.

02:01:21.840 I'm not going to do it.

02:01:22.500 I'm not going to do it.

02:01:22.960 That's in kratia.

02:01:24.460 Sofferson,

02:01:25.000 Sofferson is different.

02:01:27.060 Sofferson is like this.

02:01:29.100 St.

02:01:29.420 Paul talks about when he does the hymn to agape.

02:01:31.100 When I was a child,

02:01:32.560 I thought like a child.

02:01:33.540 I acted like a child.

02:01:34.680 But then when I became an adult,

02:01:36.680 I put childish things behind me.

02:01:38.300 As the child is to the adult,

02:01:39.620 the adult is to the sage,

02:01:41.040 right?

02:01:41.580 So when you're a kid,

02:01:43.280 you have two gods,

02:01:44.300 candy and toys.

02:01:45.940 In fact,

02:01:46.240 one of the greatest things I did philosophically with my,

02:01:48.480 when my,

02:01:49.260 with my younger son is I came to him one day and I said,

02:01:51.920 which is more important,

02:01:53.440 toys or candy?

02:01:55.320 And he looked at me like,

02:01:56.920 finally,

02:01:57.440 dad is asking me something intelligent.

02:01:59.500 And he even,

02:02:00.160 he even said,

02:02:00.860 like,

02:02:01.020 even did like,

02:02:01.580 give me a moment.

02:02:02.240 I want to think.

02:02:03.040 Right.

02:02:03.400 I was like,

02:02:03.660 okay.

02:02:04.120 And then he came back to me and he said,

02:02:06.180 toys.

02:02:07.440 Cause you can get sick of candy.

02:02:09.000 And I thought,

02:02:09.360 ah,

02:02:09.480 that's my son.

02:02:10.540 There's a philosopher in there somewhere.

02:02:12.860 And so,

02:02:13.840 right.

02:02:14.120 But notice what,

02:02:14.960 and I used to play with him all the time.

02:02:16.440 And it's a weird thing when you're an adult,

02:02:17.780 cause like,

02:02:18.800 I remember one of my friends told me,

02:02:19.960 he remembered the day when the toys died,

02:02:21.740 when the,

02:02:22.540 like,

02:02:23.180 because what happens is,

02:02:24.480 when you're,

02:02:25.200 when you're a kid,

02:02:25.980 toys are super salient to you.

02:02:28.640 Right.

02:02:29.320 My,

02:02:29.640 my son,

02:02:30.200 when he was young,

02:02:30.640 he used to have like a toy tower,

02:02:31.960 all the MC figurines are there and everything.

02:02:34.600 Like,

02:02:35.000 and like to get him to,

02:02:35.900 he would forego urinating and eating to play right.

02:02:38.720 With his toys.

02:02:39.580 Right.

02:02:40.860 Now I would play with him,

02:02:42.000 but I don't have that,

02:02:43.280 you know,

02:02:43.500 because I'm,

02:02:44.140 I hope I'm an adult,

02:02:45.540 I'm a man and I don't have to sort of resist.

02:02:47.420 I don't have to go,

02:02:48.020 no,

02:02:48.460 I won't play with the toys.

02:02:50.260 No,

02:02:50.720 I won't.

02:02:51.340 I've matured what I find salient.

02:02:53.660 We call that a salience landscape.

02:02:55.400 I've matured what I find salient,

02:02:56.960 how I connect to things.

02:02:57.940 And salient means just to make it clear.

02:02:59.440 How things grab your attention,

02:03:00.840 how they stand out for you,

02:03:01.860 how they catch you.

02:03:02.680 Got it.

02:03:02.920 Right.

02:03:03.120 And so like,

02:03:04.800 I know logically I could pick up the toys and play the,

02:03:08.620 this is smart,

02:03:09.100 but it doesn't,

02:03:09.940 it doesn't draw me.

02:03:11.780 See,

02:03:12.540 Safrasen,

02:03:13.800 that's Safrasen.

02:03:15.000 You,

02:03:15.280 you,

02:03:15.520 you want it,

02:03:16.080 you want to commit,

02:03:17.020 not encratically.

02:03:18.080 I'm not going to cheat on my partner.

02:03:19.760 You want to,

02:03:20.740 you want to commit Safrasen.

02:03:22.900 It's like,

02:03:23.500 I'm constantly tempted by the good.

02:03:25.720 I'm constantly flowing.

02:03:27.720 It,

02:03:27.940 it comes like second nature to me to,

02:03:30.360 to,

02:03:30.460 to have this commitment.

02:03:31.380 Like Frankfurt called love,

02:03:33.780 love a voluntary necessity,

02:03:35.800 which is a brilliant way of putting it.

02:03:37.880 Do you see what I mean?

02:03:38.540 Because we have the,

02:03:39.900 the,

02:03:40.080 the problem we've,

02:03:41.820 we have is we can,

02:03:45.340 and this,

02:03:46.120 this messes people up.

02:03:47.560 This is why,

02:03:47.980 this is why I wanted to speak to this.

02:03:49.540 We,

02:03:49.860 people,

02:03:50.540 I think commitment's the right word.

02:03:52.180 The problem is we often,

02:03:53.700 when we hear commitment,

02:03:54.480 we think of duty and then we fall into a cradia and we,

02:03:57.240 I'm going to force myself to stay with this person.

02:03:59.420 Right.

02:03:59.940 Now you have to tough it out at times.

02:04:01.940 But right.

02:04:03.140 In the end,

02:04:03.480 you want to mature in a relationship so that the commitment is soft,

02:04:06.740 person.

02:04:07.620 Right.

02:04:08.000 Right.

02:04:08.680 So it's reciprocal.

02:04:09.740 Yeah.

02:04:09.940 And it's opening and you're being drawn into it rather than forcing

02:04:14.320 yourself.

02:04:14.820 It's like,

02:04:15.280 it's like when you're meditating and initially you're sort of constantly

02:04:18.100 trying to keep your attention on the breath and it's like

02:04:20.620 concentrate,

02:04:21.160 like the word,

02:04:21.620 you're forcing things into the center.

02:04:23.160 Right.

02:04:23.600 But what you get is you get to where it flips.

02:04:25.460 And instead of doing that,

02:04:26.920 you're constantly instead being reinterested and being drawn into what

02:04:31.840 you're focusing your attention on,

02:04:33.080 entering the stream as they talk about,

02:04:35.440 right?

02:04:35.540 You want to enter the stream and you love it.

02:04:38.400 Like infatuation is the momentary madness that gives us a foretaste that we

02:04:43.740 can properly play with of how that can happen.

02:04:46.280 But the problem is we can't stay in infatuation and you have to,

02:04:50.020 what infatuation does is it says,

02:04:52.240 okay,

02:04:52.720 see how you could get into this reciprocal opening with somebody.

02:04:55.980 Now this is candy.

02:04:57.780 Find out how to make it food.

02:04:59.880 Basically.

02:05:00.940 That's the other problem we have in our culture.

02:05:02.940 The romantic comedies have told us that the most important,

02:05:06.540 not only do they tell us that this weird bullshit story that the universe will

02:05:11.180 conspire to bring you the person you should be with.

02:05:13.140 No,

02:05:13.340 it won't.

02:05:14.140 No,

02:05:14.640 it won't.

02:05:14.900 Yeah.

02:05:15.120 The universe is not like one of the,

02:05:16.740 it's not like a lazy Susan.

02:05:18.740 No,

02:05:19.140 exactly.

02:05:19.760 And then the other thing it tells you is,

02:05:21.840 right.

02:05:22.220 The best part of love is the,

02:05:24.440 is the falling in love part.

02:05:26.000 No,

02:05:26.480 it's not infatuation,

02:05:28.100 right.

02:05:28.700 In fact,

02:05:29.000 infatuation is to shake your world up enough,

02:05:32.520 right.

02:05:33.820 So that you could cultivate that commitment so that it becomes,

02:05:38.880 you're constantly tempted to fall in love with the person again and again.

02:05:42.940 And again.

02:05:43.440 And that's what I thought was interesting.

02:05:44.760 You said in the beginning was that when you were talking about your partner,

02:05:47.720 about your wife,

02:05:48.680 that you said,

02:05:51.160 if there's something new,

02:05:52.620 I see about her or that she's a mystery,

02:05:54.760 you know,

02:05:55.920 continuing to perceive that person as a mystery,

02:05:58.240 really,

02:05:59.380 or to look at them as a mystery.

02:06:02.100 It just makes it,

02:06:03.260 it's going to make every day or every week,

02:06:05.800 whatever,

02:06:06.120 like a new episode.

02:06:07.140 It's not going to,

02:06:08.260 you're not going to just be playing the same episode over and over giving,

02:06:11.200 you're giving your framework,

02:06:12.560 you're framing as a,

02:06:13.600 as a perspective to,

02:06:14.920 Oh,

02:06:15.000 let me see what else new I could learn or see about this person or a new way

02:06:19.220 that I can relate to them.

02:06:20.460 That's pretty fascinating.

02:06:22.100 So confronting a mystery here,

02:06:23.700 confronting a mystery rather than here,

02:06:26.560 here,

02:06:27.040 this is what will,

02:06:28.580 this is,

02:06:29.040 this is how you know your relationship is doomed.

02:06:31.780 If you turn your partner into a problem to be solved,

02:06:35.340 rather than a mystery to constantly face and be faithful to.

02:06:40.300 Wow.

02:06:42.060 To be faithful to a mystery too.

02:06:43.400 That's a pretty brave thing,

02:06:44.460 you know,

02:06:44.680 exciting.

02:06:45.440 It's cool.

02:06:45.740 It's cool though.

02:06:46.320 I think it's neat.

02:06:47.320 I think that's the,

02:06:47.960 what I again,

02:06:49.180 try to rehabilitate the notion of faith instead of faith being asserting

02:06:52.880 propositions,

02:06:53.860 pretending that you have certainty,

02:06:55.320 even though you don't have evidence.

02:06:57.300 What about we reconsider faith as faithfulness to the mystery of being so

02:07:01.940 that we continually fall in love with reality in increasing depths within

02:07:05.740 and without.

02:07:06.500 Why don't we make faith faithfulness as opposed to,

02:07:09.440 I'm going to say things that have no evidence and I'm going to pretend that

02:07:12.360 I'm certain about them.

02:07:13.400 I think that's a,

02:07:14.260 that's a really modern and it's not the ancient notion of faith.

02:07:17.820 And that's one of the things,

02:07:18.660 again,

02:07:18.820 we lost.

02:07:19.540 We've lost faith as a profound faithfulness.

02:07:23.280 Do you think,

02:07:24.080 cause you're a smart guy,

02:07:25.340 do you think it is,

02:07:26.560 which is okay.

02:07:27.240 Maybe,

02:07:27.580 maybe.

02:07:27.940 Some people are smart and that's okay.

02:07:29.740 I'm not saying you're good at volleyball.

02:07:31.240 You know,

02:07:31.380 you might not be,

02:07:31.960 you might be bad at volleyball.

02:07:33.560 I don't know,

02:07:34.320 but,

02:07:34.480 but some,

02:07:34.860 but some things are certain people are some are certain things.

02:07:37.480 You appear smart,

02:07:38.420 right?

02:07:38.800 Okay.

02:07:39.400 To a pretty regular person like myself.

02:07:42.200 Is it harder to be in love when you're smart?

02:07:45.480 Like,

02:07:45.680 cause smart makes it so you kind of look at things a lot,

02:07:48.500 you know?

02:07:48.860 So intelligent people generally have a harder time.

02:07:55.080 And the problem,

02:07:56.400 and this is the work of Stanovich and others.

02:07:58.800 The problem we've also gotten into is we've confused being intelligent with being rational

02:08:03.140 and we've confused being rational with being logical.

02:08:05.540 And so we get all messed up about this.

02:08:08.340 Intelligence is your capacity to solve problems.

02:08:11.120 Rationality is ultimately,

02:08:12.680 I would argue,

02:08:13.540 and this is the ancient notion.

02:08:14.620 This is Plato's notion.

02:08:15.780 It's not about being logical.

02:08:16.920 Rationality is about using your intelligence to become aware of the self-deception and

02:08:22.260 the bias so that you can overcome it.

02:08:24.540 That's what,

02:08:24.960 so mindfulness is a way of being rational,

02:08:27.280 even though you're not running any arguments in your head.

02:08:30.240 So if you,

02:08:31.220 and Plato,

02:08:32.080 Plato was deep about reason in that sense.

02:08:35.540 Reason,

02:08:36.020 we still carry it around when we talk about somebody being reasonable,

02:08:39.040 right?

02:08:39.940 Reason in that sense and love,

02:08:41.380 they're interwoven.

02:08:42.000 Because reason in that sense is the profound love and faithfulness to what is true,

02:08:48.500 what is good and beautiful.

02:08:50.420 And I think if you're intelligent and you're not,

02:08:54.360 and you haven't cultivated rationality and it's accompanying virtues,

02:08:59.480 then you are more and more tempted to problematize your relationship just because you have the intelligence machinery to use.

02:09:09.760 But if you could,

02:09:11.700 so,

02:09:13.000 but if you could start making hurdles because your brain,

02:09:15.220 that's what it's,

02:09:15.600 it just,

02:09:16.100 it likes to solve problems so it'll just make problems.

02:09:18.340 Right.

02:09:18.640 And what your brain will also do,

02:09:20.400 right,

02:09:20.680 is your brain,

02:09:21.480 so your brain is a powerful prediction machine.

02:09:25.140 It's a relevance,

02:09:25.920 remember we talked about anticipating the future?

02:09:27.780 So your brain is constantly also trying to solve problems you didn't solve in the past.

02:09:35.540 And so in a bit of a slogan,

02:09:38.600 your brain actually prefers familiar unhappiness to unexpected happiness.

02:09:43.340 Because it likes organization,

02:09:44.960 right?

02:09:45.180 It likes familiarity because familiarity at least initially seems that you're predicting things.

02:09:50.760 Now the problem with familiarity is,

02:09:52.300 and you know this,

02:09:52.920 you see this in your friends and they see it in you and the great gift is if you could come to see it in yourself.

02:09:59.900 You're doing that thing,

02:10:00.920 Bill.

02:10:01.120 You're doing that thing,

02:10:01.860 you always do in your relationships.

02:10:03.420 You're doing it again,

02:10:04.700 right?

02:10:05.160 And you seem so wise from the outside,

02:10:07.480 except,

02:10:08.180 you know,

02:10:08.520 two years later,

02:10:09.100 Bill comes to you and says,

02:10:10.060 you know,

02:10:10.500 Theo,

02:10:11.020 you're doing that thing again.

02:10:13.920 Now you're doing that thing.

02:10:15.420 Right,

02:10:15.680 yeah,

02:10:15.800 yeah.

02:10:16.200 I know,

02:10:16.760 it's so interesting.

02:10:17.620 So you have to,

02:10:19.100 your intelligence not only is problematizing things by looking for problems,

02:10:22.620 it's also trying to solve previous relationships,

02:10:25.760 but in often in a maladaptive way.

02:10:29.280 But if you can bring rationality in the platonic sense,

02:10:33.520 rationality,

02:10:34.200 love,

02:10:34.760 virtue,

02:10:35.840 into faithfulness,

02:10:38.160 and they're all interdependent,

02:10:39.960 if you can bring that in,

02:10:41.260 then I think then it shifts.

02:10:43.440 And that actually makes,

02:10:45.200 gives you a greater capacity to enter deeply into a loving relationship.

02:10:50.120 I,

02:10:50.280 I,

02:10:50.540 I,

02:10:50.720 I like,

02:10:51.880 I want everybody to understand I'm like 61,

02:10:54.440 almost 62.

02:10:55.300 And I've like screwed up.

02:10:56.800 You look young,

02:10:57.480 man.

02:10:57.740 Well,

02:10:57.960 thank you.

02:10:58.480 I've screwed up a lot.

02:11:00.520 Um,

02:11:00.940 and I continue,

02:11:01.920 I continue to,

02:11:02.780 to make sense.

02:11:03.400 So,

02:11:03.560 so,

02:11:04.260 um,

02:11:05.760 uh,

02:11:06.760 I want to give credit to a lot of the people that helped me along the way.

02:11:10.280 And I want to give credit to my friends and also to my,

02:11:14.200 my beloved partner for like,

02:11:16.540 for anything I'm saying here,

02:11:17.580 I,

02:11:17.800 I,

02:11:18.140 I,

02:11:18.460 I owe it profoundly to them.

02:11:20.600 Yeah.

02:11:21.000 And we're just trying our best,

02:11:22.280 you know,

02:11:22.680 it's like,

02:11:23.060 it doesn't mean that you know everything.

02:11:24.880 No.

02:11:25.020 And I don't want to come across that way,

02:11:26.280 but I do,

02:11:26.860 but I,

02:11:27.320 but,

02:11:27.680 but okay,

02:11:28.200 good.

02:11:28.380 But I also,

02:11:29.040 but I also feel your questions deserve,

02:11:31.240 uh,

02:11:31.580 you know,

02:11:32.160 the best,

02:11:33.120 most responsible answer I can give them.

02:11:35.360 No.

02:11:35.560 And I appreciate that.

02:11:36.360 Yeah.

02:11:36.520 That's what I'm hoping for.

02:11:37.440 Um,

02:11:38.880 yeah.

02:11:39.220 Cause I think that's a challenging thing these days.

02:11:41.380 I mean,

02:11:41.680 especially,

02:11:42.500 you know,

02:11:43.300 we've let so much.

02:11:46.300 Couldn't like we've let so much,

02:11:49.340 and I don't know if it's capitalism or what we let when in our country,

02:11:54.340 we let those things become more important.

02:11:56.640 Like,

02:11:57.400 you know,

02:11:57.680 we let like,

02:11:58.660 uh,

02:11:59.280 I mean,

02:11:59.520 I use pornography as an example,

02:12:00.940 just how it killed.

02:12:01.860 It's killed a lot of the libido in the world.

02:12:04.680 Yes.

02:12:05.060 I feel like,

02:12:05.800 and so there's no,

02:12:07.200 it makes salient as opposed to offering depth.

02:12:10.640 See that Han talks about this in saving beauty.

02:12:14.360 Um,

02:12:14.840 he talks about how pornography makes,

02:12:17.420 he talks about how we've,

02:12:18.460 we've tried to make everything smooth.

02:12:20.140 We've instead of see,

02:12:21.720 if you read the ancients or even Rilke,

02:12:23.500 beauty is almost terrifying because it shocks you.

02:12:26.120 It wakes you up.

02:12:26.980 It makes you,

02:12:27.260 Oh,

02:12:27.840 I didn't realize the world could be like this.

02:12:29.940 I remember I saw a hot chick.

02:12:31.160 I couldn't even handle it,

02:12:32.180 dude.

02:12:32.480 Right.

02:12:32.760 Right.

02:12:33.080 Yeah.

02:12:33.400 I tried to almost bury myself in the dirt one time.

02:12:36.160 Cause I couldn't handle it.

02:12:37.140 First time I saw a beautiful girl.

02:12:38.320 It's overwhelmingly powerful.

02:12:40.280 And you're like 11 inches of dirt out and fucking sat in there.

02:12:43.460 Isn't that crazy though?

02:12:44.800 But it,

02:12:45.320 well,

02:12:45.620 I,

02:12:45.880 it's,

02:12:46.740 it's,

02:12:47.680 it's,

02:12:48.680 it's,

02:12:49.500 it's something that we've done everything else to.

02:12:52.680 We've tried to like,

02:12:55.400 uh,

02:12:55.620 what did,

02:12:56.040 what did Rilke say?

02:12:57.060 Beauty is the angel that almost threatens to kill you,

02:13:01.100 but doesn't.

02:13:01.680 Hmm.

02:13:02.720 Right.

02:13:03.360 And,

02:13:03.760 and then what,

02:13:04.440 what pornography does according to Han is it just makes everything,

02:13:07.620 there's no challenge.

02:13:08.980 And what that,

02:13:09.840 and we think that's great.

02:13:10.780 Cause now it's easily accessible.

02:13:12.100 I can have it,

02:13:13.240 but there's no confrontation with mystery.

02:13:15.800 There's no calling to go beyond oneself.

02:13:18.180 There's no calling to challenge one.

02:13:20.160 So everything is now smooth for us.

02:13:22.440 And we've,

02:13:22.960 we've adopted an aesthetic of the smooth and the easy and the comfortable.

02:13:26.800 I think you're right.

02:13:28.040 Pornography is,

02:13:28.960 uh,

02:13:29.280 uh,

02:13:30.000 you know,

02:13:30.220 a clear symptom of just how,

02:13:33.020 and then we,

02:13:33.580 and,

02:13:33.700 and,

02:13:33.920 and it's a hyperbolic discounting.

02:13:35.680 We get the,

02:13:36.360 the,

02:13:36.880 the,

02:13:37.100 the momentary thing and we lose the longterm project.

02:13:41.220 Yeah.

02:13:41.760 The longterm project of relationship,

02:13:43.520 of cultivating sexuality between yourself and a partner.

02:13:47.120 Yes.

02:13:47.600 It's like,

02:13:48.120 okay,

02:13:48.360 do I want to go out and meet someone and try to fall in love and try to

02:13:53.140 covet them and respect them and create sensuality and make this long

02:14:00.220 diatribe of a relationship that has value to both me and them.

02:14:05.100 Or do I just want to go squeeze one out over here?

02:14:08.160 You know?

02:14:08.780 Yeah.

02:14:09.080 Yeah.

02:14:09.220 And a lot of times you'll just choose that easier when you're,

02:14:12.240 you'll just buy a new vape or something and choose that easier when instead

02:14:15.720 of go that longer road where there's going to be more value,

02:14:18.620 you know?

02:14:19.480 And it's almost become so prevalent that some people don't even know that

02:14:23.560 there is the longer road anymore.

02:14:25.200 The fact that that's the scary part.

02:14:26.960 Yeah.

02:14:27.200 Yeah.

02:14:27.640 We brought,

02:14:28.080 we're growing up in a generation who has never been without screens and,

02:14:32.100 and where pornography is available all the time,

02:14:36.020 everywhere.

02:14:36.480 And everything is,

02:14:37.540 if you want to laugh now,

02:14:38.700 this is kind of a interesting one,

02:14:40.160 but if you want to laugh,

02:14:41.420 you can go find you a laugh,

02:14:42.860 you know,

02:14:43.280 you can find a laugh pretty quick,

02:14:44.620 but if you wanted,

02:14:45.720 to be out like we had to make each other,

02:14:48.760 like you had to,

02:14:49.820 you had to be the videos you're watching in a way you had to use your

02:14:54.860 imagination to iterate what had happened before.

02:14:58.420 Like you had,

02:14:59.880 you felt like a cog in the,

02:15:02.180 in the,

02:15:03.300 in the wheel of entertainment just by being a human being.

02:15:07.900 And some of that has disappeared,

02:15:09.900 you know?

02:15:11.400 I mean,

02:15:12.200 conversation is people are listening to people have conversations,

02:15:15.720 conversations.

02:15:16.100 That's how archaic they're becoming.

02:15:18.380 So that people are listening to podcasts to hear people talk freely.

02:15:23.920 So one,

02:15:24.520 by the way,

02:15:25.740 I loved seeing you that animated.

02:15:27.880 That was really powerful.

02:15:29.160 So thank you for sharing that with me.

02:15:30.860 That was,

02:15:31.300 thanks man.

02:15:31.760 That was really,

02:15:32.500 yeah,

02:15:32.600 I didn't know it was going to be so powerful to me,

02:15:34.180 but I think it does.

02:15:35.120 I think I've felt fallen victim so much to pornography,

02:15:37.880 especially in my twenties that like,

02:15:39.980 dude,

02:15:40.360 it just makes me mad,

02:15:41.960 you know,

02:15:42.640 I didn't,

02:15:43.320 yeah,

02:15:43.780 time wasted and the ability to love wasted and the ability to learn about

02:15:47.580 love,

02:15:47.980 you know,

02:15:48.340 I didn't have any other choice,

02:15:50.040 you know,

02:15:50.380 but,

02:15:50.780 um,

02:15:51.340 I mean,

02:15:51.600 I maybe had a choice,

02:15:52.420 but I wasn't aware,

02:15:53.380 you know,

02:15:53.740 for sure.

02:15:54.320 But,

02:15:54.800 um,

02:15:55.220 anyway,

02:15:55.560 go on.

02:15:56.180 Well,

02:15:56.280 I was just going to say that,

02:15:57.520 uh,

02:15:58.420 one of the things that I'm trying to do with the going with the

02:16:03.740 podcast and the videos,

02:16:04.860 but I'm also building in person things is build a bridge between

02:16:07.960 those so that when people see these,

02:16:10.260 cause I get comments all the time.

02:16:11.500 It's like,

02:16:11.700 I wish I could be part of that.

02:16:12.980 Those kinds of conversation,

02:16:14.260 that kind of dialogos.

02:16:15.540 I use the Greek word.

02:16:16.440 Yeah.

02:16:16.780 Right.

02:16:17.480 And then we say,

02:16:18.260 well,

02:16:18.520 you can,

02:16:19.000 and here's a place you can come where you can start to practice

02:16:22.060 it.

02:16:22.880 Um,

02:16:23.260 you know,

02:16:23.760 and either we can do it through a zoom room and that still

02:16:26.780 works by the way,

02:16:27.460 which is really fascinating because it's a scientist.

02:16:29.540 I wonder what it would work,

02:16:30.600 but it still does.

02:16:31.500 Uh,

02:16:31.740 but we can also do it in person and trying to build that

02:16:34.060 bridge.

02:16:34.280 So people can,

02:16:35.440 once they see,

02:16:36.120 I want to be part of that,

02:16:37.320 I want to participate in that.

02:16:38.560 Like you were just talking about with so much,

02:16:40.100 so much life,

02:16:41.220 there's a place they can go where they can,

02:16:44.340 but there's a bridge between witnessing and wanting to be in

02:16:48.200 such a conversation and actually practicing and

02:16:50.400 participating in.

02:16:51.420 Yeah.

02:16:52.700 Yeah.

02:16:53.060 Well,

02:16:53.180 there's also,

02:16:53.740 there's,

02:16:54.040 I mean,

02:16:54.240 there's 12 step programs for everything,

02:16:55.720 which is great.

02:16:56.800 And,

02:16:57.240 you know,

02:16:57.340 I go to some of the meetings for,

02:16:59.000 they have like intimacy and love addiction.

02:17:01.080 And some of the names of the groups are a little bit off

02:17:04.320 sometimes,

02:17:04.680 but you can go in there and listen to people talk about,

02:17:07.680 uh,

02:17:08.240 their struggles with,

02:17:09.540 um,

02:17:10.500 relationships and,

02:17:12.440 uh,

02:17:13.680 sometimes pornography,

02:17:14.960 all different types of stuff.

02:17:16.340 I met a buddy that was a flasher in there.

02:17:18.460 So you get all the time.

02:17:19.280 I mean,

02:17:19.380 you know,

02:17:19.600 some of it's kind of cool,

02:17:20.800 kind of.

02:17:21.400 Yeah.

02:17:21.740 I mean,

02:17:22.040 not cool,

02:17:22.500 you know,

02:17:22.700 but it is kind of neat,

02:17:23.660 you know,

02:17:23.880 you know,

02:17:24.120 a flasher,

02:17:24.820 you know,

02:17:25.000 you know,

02:17:25.560 one,

02:17:26.040 you know,

02:17:26.540 you know,

02:17:27.120 them,

02:17:27.500 you know,

02:17:28.200 that's great.

02:17:29.320 And,

02:17:29.720 um,

02:17:30.420 so yeah,

02:17:30.840 I think some of that's just the,

02:17:32.300 the rooms that are out there that people are sharing,

02:17:34.560 like what their life is like and,

02:17:36.160 and getting better and recovering from those things are pretty fascinating.

02:17:40.020 Um,

02:17:40.800 it's also at a time where it's like,

02:17:42.600 yeah,

02:17:42.760 if you're willing to share what's going on with you,

02:17:44.540 there's a ton of value to that.

02:17:46.500 Yeah.

02:17:46.940 I mean,

02:17:47.300 as long as it doesn't turn into that thing we were talking about earlier,

02:17:50.400 like the reality shows where it just becomes something that we can modify in

02:17:53.860 order to put another trophy of narcissism on our wall.

02:17:57.960 Right.

02:17:58.360 And see how special I am.

02:18:00.060 I can disclose more than you can.

02:18:02.100 And that's why I think,

02:18:04.440 that's why I,

02:18:05.080 I really strongly challenge.

02:18:07.700 Don't,

02:18:08.100 don't find,

02:18:09.320 don't think that there's one thing you can do that will be a panacea.

02:18:12.180 You need a whole bunch of practices,

02:18:13.920 all doing this checks and balance.

02:18:15.740 You need to do it with a bunch of different people coming from different

02:18:18.520 perspectives.

02:18:19.380 Right.

02:18:19.920 And only then do you have the chance that it might not degenerate in that,

02:18:24.200 that fashion.

02:18:25.080 Yeah.

02:18:25.480 Cause I do worry that we,

02:18:26.780 uh,

02:18:27.320 we're getting kind of like,

02:18:28.340 therapy porn starting to emerge in our culture where,

02:18:31.680 what,

02:18:32.420 you know what I'm going to do is I'm going to just open up and share my

02:18:35.520 feelings.

02:18:36.120 Right.

02:18:36.580 And it's like,

02:18:36.960 toward what end?

02:18:37.900 Are you cultivating virtue?

02:18:39.200 Are you overcoming self-deception?

02:18:40.860 Are you helping the other person to grow?

02:18:42.960 Like,

02:18:43.180 no,

02:18:43.580 it's just,

02:18:44.040 I'm going to expose myself.

02:18:46.420 So that's,

02:18:47.420 you know,

02:18:47.720 right.

02:18:47.980 And it's like the flasher,

02:18:49.040 right?

02:18:49.300 Yeah.

02:18:49.560 Yeah.

02:18:49.720 Yeah.

02:18:50.180 And it's like,

02:18:50.700 I'm going to expose myself.

02:18:51.880 And,

02:18:52.320 and,

02:18:52.520 and,

02:18:52.920 and then what we'll do is I got to see deeply into somebody in it.

02:18:56.040 Oh,

02:18:56.240 it was so smooth.

02:18:57.180 It was so easy.

02:18:57.840 It's a pornography.

02:18:58.500 It doesn't take any commitment or challenge.

02:19:01.000 I don't have to make myself responsible to that person.

02:19:03.460 They'll just gush and I'll just drink it in.

02:19:06.760 And I'm worried that that's growing right now.

02:19:09.180 Wow.

02:19:09.580 That's fascinating,

02:19:10.500 man.

02:19:11.300 Yeah.

02:19:11.700 Because I worry about that sometimes,

02:19:13.300 like not only in my own life,

02:19:14.920 but yeah,

02:19:16.240 you see stuff like that.

02:19:17.240 I have some friends that are vloggers and they vlog every minute of their

02:19:21.200 lives.

02:19:21.860 Yeah.

02:19:22.460 And you can see they start to get like,

02:19:26.240 they don't even remember what they're doing anymore.

02:19:28.560 They're performing for constantly for an audience and they're,

02:19:33.180 they start doing strange things and almost become trapped in this manic

02:19:38.220 episode,

02:19:39.220 you know,

02:19:39.820 it's that reciprocal narrowing and that,

02:19:41.760 right.

02:19:41.960 And,

02:19:42.240 and,

02:19:42.440 and they're trying to have something instead of become someone like,

02:19:45.960 yeah.

02:19:46.700 And the fact that the,

02:19:47.880 I mean,

02:19:48.080 that's another symptom of the meaning crisis.

02:19:49.700 The fact that you noted,

02:19:51.140 this kind of stuff is spreading like a disease.

02:19:53.720 Like,

02:19:53.960 yeah.

02:19:54.380 Right.

02:19:54.820 Yeah.

02:19:55.100 But there's always been diseases,

02:19:57.800 right.

02:19:57.920 There's always been things that have come along.

02:19:59.960 We've always gotten through them.

02:20:02.420 Well,

02:20:02.960 yeah.

02:20:03.300 I mean,

02:20:03.740 sometimes we got through it like things like the bronze age collapse,

02:20:08.960 you know,

02:20:09.540 1177 BCE,

02:20:12.140 right.

02:20:12.380 We've had bronze age civilizations,

02:20:15.100 ancient Egypt,

02:20:15.840 Assyria,

02:20:16.300 Babylon,

02:20:16.780 the Hittite empire,

02:20:17.480 the Mycenaean civilization.

02:20:18.700 They all collapse.

02:20:19.480 All collapse.

02:20:20.100 Oh,

02:20:20.220 except for Egypt.

02:20:21.280 Assyria almost collapses.

02:20:22.620 It shrinks.

02:20:23.240 Egypt survives because one of my favorite people of history,

02:20:27.260 I just got a book on him.

02:20:28.080 Ramsey's the third.

02:20:29.540 He's a,

02:20:30.200 he's a military genius and he defeats the invading people,

02:20:34.360 the sea peoples in two great battles.

02:20:36.340 And he's,

02:20:36.820 he's like,

02:20:37.620 he's trying to hold up the whole bronze age world on his shoulders.

02:20:41.200 Uh,

02:20:41.880 uh,

02:20:42.200 uh,

02:20:42.700 but,

02:20:43.060 uh,

02:20:43.400 even Egypt,

02:20:44.280 once he,

02:20:44.840 he gets assassinated and once he's gone,

02:20:47.740 even Egypt goes into decline.

02:20:49.220 So most of the civil,

02:20:50.560 more,

02:20:50.940 more cities went out of existence.

02:20:53.860 More trade is lost.

02:20:55.300 More literacy is lost at any other time in the Western world.

02:20:58.040 Even the fall of the Roman,

02:20:59.220 the Western Roman empire was not as great as the bronze age collapse.

02:21:02.400 Wow.

02:21:02.680 So things can really collapse now.

02:21:04.440 And then there's like,

02:21:05.600 there's several centuries and you don't want to be alive in the centuries after the bronze age collapse.

02:21:09.380 They're really,

02:21:10.140 really bad time to be alive.

02:21:11.460 Oh,

02:21:11.700 it gets pretty sketchy.

02:21:12.560 It gets really bad,

02:21:13.680 but it opens up possibilities and people start to experiment.

02:21:17.760 They create new psychotechnologies,

02:21:19.880 alphabetic literacy,

02:21:20.840 numeracy,

02:21:21.240 and that gives birth to the axial age to people like Socrates and Buddha and,

02:21:26.380 uh,

02:21:27.000 Lao Tse.

02:21:28.780 Yeah.

02:21:29.240 It's almost like you just needed it over time.

02:21:31.160 It's like,

02:21:31.440 that's the cycle.

02:21:32.900 Yeah.

02:21:33.440 There's some people who think that,

02:21:34.720 that,

02:21:35.320 that,

02:21:35.440 uh,

02:21:36.340 that complex organizations go through what's called self-organizing criticality.

02:21:41.140 They organize and they build and they get very complex and then they get,

02:21:44.280 they can't,

02:21:44.960 they get too top heavy,

02:21:45.820 like a,

02:21:46.180 like a pile of sand and then it avalanches and it all collapses.

02:21:49.800 But that provides a broader base and then it can build again,

02:21:52.840 even higher than before.

02:21:54.060 Yeah.

02:21:54.340 And it oscillates in that way.

02:21:55.640 You know,

02:21:55.840 some people have argued that the human cognition seems to work in that way

02:21:59.580 too.

02:22:00.280 Yeah.

02:22:00.780 Yeah.

02:22:02.180 And so,

02:22:02.960 um,

02:22:03.860 you know,

02:22:04.160 you,

02:22:04.580 you,

02:22:04.900 you,

02:22:05.360 you,

02:22:05.520 you can't solve this problem and you,

02:22:07.020 you,

02:22:07.200 you got a sense,

02:22:08.060 but you can't,

02:22:08.720 you're just framing it the wrong way,

02:22:09.900 but you can't break out of the wrong frame.

02:22:11.940 Um,

02:22:12.820 and,

02:22:13.180 and what often has to happen is you have to break that frame.

02:22:16.340 You have to like,

02:22:17.160 and sometimes breaking is really,

02:22:18.520 really,

02:22:18.960 really hard.

02:22:19.300 And sometimes it's easy.

02:22:20.400 Like you'll do things like you'll say to people,

02:22:22.760 you know,

02:22:23.280 uh,

02:22:23.740 what's the gray stuff that comes from fire?

02:22:25.660 And they say smoke.

02:22:26.760 And what's,

02:22:27.440 what am I doing with my hand right now?

02:22:28.460 My arm.

02:22:28.940 Oh,

02:22:29.000 that's a stroke.

02:22:30.320 Um,

02:22:30.720 and what am I doing right now?

02:22:31.860 Oh,

02:22:32.020 that's a choke.

02:22:32.960 And what kind of tree grows from an acorn?

02:22:35.640 That's an oak.

02:22:36.300 And what do you call the white of an egg?

02:22:37.760 And they'll say,

02:22:38.160 Oh,

02:22:38.300 a yoke.

02:22:39.040 Of course it's not.

02:22:39.820 It's the white of the egg,

02:22:40.820 right?

02:22:40.960 You fall into a frame and you get locked.

02:22:42.900 Right.

02:22:43.300 And sometimes the frames are fairly easy.

02:22:45.000 Sometimes the frames are really,

02:22:46.300 really hard.

02:22:47.240 Like you're,

02:22:47.880 you're deep in modal confusion,

02:22:49.380 right?

02:22:49.820 Oh yeah.

02:22:50.480 Right.

02:22:50.900 And so breaking that frame is like that,

02:22:53.200 that avalanche.

02:22:53.980 You have to break that frame.

02:22:56.360 But if you,

02:22:56.780 if you don't break it to the point of trauma,

02:22:58.760 if you break it in the right way,

02:23:00.440 what it does is it,

02:23:01.720 it allows the brain's capacity to self-organize,

02:23:04.900 to reorganize from like a broader or different base.

02:23:07.660 Got it.

02:23:07.880 And then you get a new frame and then you get that aha moment.

02:23:10.880 And typically what happens,

02:23:12.100 at least that's a significant theory is the activity is predominantly in the left hemisphere,

02:23:18.360 which is your logical sort of step-by-step fine grain,

02:23:21.320 well-defined problem side.

02:23:23.020 And you realize,

02:23:23.620 Oh,

02:23:23.680 I can't solve this problem.

02:23:24.560 And it goes into the right hemisphere,

02:23:26.480 which was for like predation.

02:23:28.040 The parties at.

02:23:28.660 Well,

02:23:28.900 well,

02:23:29.200 it's predation.

02:23:29.840 It's wide open attention.

02:23:31.100 You,

02:23:31.240 you're trying to get a wide picture of the big perspective.

02:23:34.740 And what you do is you,

02:23:35.900 you go over there,

02:23:36.840 get a new,

02:23:37.300 bigger perspective and then bring it back in.

02:23:39.360 Yeah.

02:23:39.940 Yeah.

02:23:40.540 Oh,

02:23:40.880 that's cool.

02:23:43.060 Um,

02:23:44.180 do you think sometimes like,

02:23:46.880 you know,

02:23:47.640 say if you put like,

02:23:50.780 you took a bunch of sand,

02:23:53.460 right.

02:23:53.640 And you just poured it into this,

02:23:55.340 this glass right here,

02:23:57.420 right?

02:23:58.460 This,

02:23:58.960 it would fill it up.

02:23:59.860 Right.

02:24:00.240 Yeah.

02:24:00.620 Do you ever think that there's a lot more going on in the world,

02:24:03.280 but that us as a vet,

02:24:05.260 like a vessel only can come,

02:24:08.300 can understand so much so that there could be so much more happening out here,

02:24:13.100 but our ability to understand is only it's this glass.

02:24:17.920 Right.

02:24:18.360 So I,

02:24:19.680 I,

02:24:19.900 I,

02:24:20.160 I would say,

02:24:21.020 I know that's the case because of what we rely on.

02:24:23.760 Um,

02:24:24.440 we,

02:24:24.940 so most of our problem solving is not done as individuals.

02:24:27.960 Uh,

02:24:28.440 you didn't invent English.

02:24:29.520 I didn't invent English.

02:24:30.420 You're not managing the electric grid.

02:24:32.180 I'm not a manager managing.

02:24:33.520 You didn't invent these microphones.

02:24:35.160 I didn't invent them.

02:24:36.200 Right.

02:24:36.660 You didn't make these chairs.

02:24:37.740 You didn't build this building.

02:24:38.840 Blah,

02:24:39.260 blah,

02:24:39.420 blah,

02:24:39.600 blah,

02:24:39.740 blah,

02:24:39.920 blah.

02:24:40.040 Like we forget that most of our problem,

02:24:42.760 I,

02:24:43.020 no one person can run an airline or a railroad.

02:24:46.300 Right.

02:24:46.840 Right.

02:24:47.460 Right.

02:24:47.600 And so what,

02:24:48.960 what you can show,

02:24:50.480 what you actually,

02:24:51.300 what,

02:24:51.520 what we seem to do,

02:24:53.120 I've done work on this with Dan Schiappe.

02:24:55.020 We've investigated the,

02:24:56.340 the scientists moving the rovers around on Mars,

02:24:58.520 but what our primary adaptivity is we plug into that collective intelligence and that collective intelligence can often grasp objects that we can't individually.

02:25:12.040 So it could be bigger than this.

02:25:13.560 Right.

02:25:13.900 So like to give you a clear example,

02:25:15.620 no one,

02:25:16.560 and I'm not trying to get into political controversies right now,

02:25:19.280 but like no one person can perceive or even measure or track global warming.

02:25:24.180 It takes a whole bunch of scientists.

02:25:25.700 It's a whole bunch of equipment all around the world.

02:25:27.460 Totally.

02:25:27.780 You can't just be a,

02:25:28.380 some dude guessing.

02:25:29.500 Right.

02:25:29.960 And no one person,

02:25:31.080 this is at Hutchins,

02:25:32.620 no one person steer,

02:25:34.360 navigates a ship.

02:25:35.140 It's a bunch of people and a bunch of equipment and they navigate the ship.

02:25:38.800 Right.

02:25:39.000 Yeah.

02:25:39.400 And so,

02:25:40.260 so we plug into,

02:25:42.660 right.

02:25:43.420 The,

02:25:43.780 the intelligence of civilization.

02:25:45.620 Basically.

02:25:46.260 But the problem is there are things that can even exceed that because civilizations probably face what's called general systems collapse.

02:25:56.640 What that means is,

02:25:58.340 so here's a civilization and it's,

02:26:00.480 it's dealing,

02:26:01.180 it's growing.

02:26:02.160 And what it's doing is it's solving problems.

02:26:04.380 And every,

02:26:05.580 every time a new problem emerges,

02:26:07.460 it adds a,

02:26:08.580 it adds a new piece on itself.

02:26:09.900 It,

02:26:10.220 you know,

02:26:10.700 and it grows and it grows and it grows.

02:26:12.740 And initially it just,

02:26:14.060 it's good at growing and it's solving more and more problems.

02:26:16.400 The problem is as it grows more and more and more,

02:26:18.320 think about a bureaucracy or government bureaucracy.

02:26:21.400 As it grows more and more and more,

02:26:23.300 it starts to become as complicated as anything it's trying to solve in the world.

02:26:28.140 Does that make sense?

02:26:29.140 Yeah.

02:26:29.260 And eventually it gets so big that it can't manage itself well enough to solve any unexpected new problems.

02:26:36.700 And then you get general systems collapse.

02:26:38.540 And it's making its own problems.

02:26:39.940 And it's making its own problems.

02:26:41.260 And it starts to be,

02:26:42.860 and you can,

02:26:43.480 you can tell when an institution is cusping on that.

02:26:47.360 And I think the universities are suffering this problem is when the,

02:26:50.660 when,

02:26:50.920 when,

02:26:51.220 when the,

02:26:51.840 like the bureaucracy starts to become for its own sake rather than for solving problems,

02:26:56.700 because it's much more about managing and maintaining its own existence.

02:27:00.540 Right.

02:27:01.060 And the civil services of some countries go down that route too.

02:27:05.100 So I think we have an individual limit and then we,

02:27:07.980 we deal with that by plugging into the civilization,

02:27:10.260 but the civilizations also have a threshold.

02:27:14.040 Man,

02:27:14.920 fricking existing,

02:27:16.120 bro.

02:27:16.340 It's complicated.

02:27:17.800 Yeah.

02:27:18.520 It's,

02:27:18.700 well,

02:27:18.940 and the thing is it's complicated,

02:27:20.600 but reality is actually complex.

02:27:22.980 Uh,

02:27:23.400 complicated is we,

02:27:24.520 we,

02:27:24.820 we,

02:27:25.140 we,

02:27:25.400 we,

02:27:26.120 we,

02:27:26.320 we can manage all the variables.

02:27:28.220 Uh,

02:27:28.700 but there,

02:27:29.160 there's just a lot of them.

02:27:30.400 Complex is we have real uncertainty and there,

02:27:33.160 and there are new emergent variables and they're dynamically shifting the relationship to each

02:27:37.080 other.

02:27:37.460 Reality is actually complex and we create complicated,

02:27:40.260 complicated systems within and without and between us to drill with that complexity.

02:27:43.680 But at some point we get challenged.

02:27:46.740 And part of what I think we need to face,

02:27:49.260 that was a,

02:27:49.820 a distinction from Snowden.

02:27:51.560 Uh,

02:27:51.960 part of what we need to,

02:27:53.280 uh,

02:27:53.900 uh,

02:27:54.220 do face,

02:27:55.500 and I,

02:27:55.760 this is,

02:27:56.300 comes out in my conversations with Jordan Hall and others.

02:27:59.140 And this is something we're now discovering in biology.

02:28:01.520 So,

02:28:01.840 you can evolve a trait,

02:28:04.540 like,

02:28:04.820 uh,

02:28:05.160 this creature's going to be faster,

02:28:06.840 right,

02:28:07.240 or taller or something like that.

02:28:08.900 But what we're now realizing it,

02:28:10.360 and this is,

02:28:11.060 what is it,

02:28:11.400 Owen Gilbert?

02:28:12.220 Yeah,

02:28:12.480 I always get the names the wrong way around,

02:28:14.380 right?

02:28:15.260 You can also evolve your evolvability,

02:28:18.440 which is,

02:28:19.060 you can,

02:28:19.280 you can evolve so you can evolve faster or better than other species.

02:28:23.780 Really?

02:28:24.060 So you can mate with someone who evolves well and make a hyper?

02:28:27.320 Well,

02:28:27.500 let's just,

02:28:28.740 you just brought something up there.

02:28:30.540 Okay,

02:28:30.900 for millions of years,

02:28:33.820 organisms are single-celled and they reproduce asexually.

02:28:37.420 They just divide,

02:28:38.260 right?

02:28:39.280 Human beings reproduce sexually.

02:28:42.880 Sexuality reshuffles the genetic deck so we get more variation.

02:28:47.180 And with more variation,

02:28:48.660 evolution speeds up.

02:28:50.580 So,

02:28:51.000 one of the reasons sex becomes,

02:28:53.720 perhaps pervasive is it because it makes you more evolvable as a species.

02:28:58.680 And now,

02:28:59.300 using that analogy,

02:29:00.880 we have to learn to become,

02:29:02.280 we're not,

02:29:02.620 we have to stop just,

02:29:03.540 I'm going to,

02:29:04.400 I'm going to,

02:29:04.420 I don't know,

02:29:05.080 so we don't have,

02:29:05.820 we shouldn't stop,

02:29:06.480 I'm going to become stronger or braver traits.

02:29:08.700 We have to keep doing that,

02:29:09.540 but we have to do this higher order thing.

02:29:12.260 We have to,

02:29:13.000 we have to evolve our evolvability right now.

02:29:15.460 Because the,

02:29:16.560 the way things are complexifying is accelerating.

02:29:20.840 Yeah.

02:29:20.940 Tradically.

02:29:21.540 Well,

02:29:21.880 especially in the US,

02:29:22.720 I mean,

02:29:22.880 it's like we've become,

02:29:24.480 you know,

02:29:24.740 it's a very,

02:29:25.380 I mean,

02:29:25.540 America's always been kind of a,

02:29:26.940 it's always been like a diversifying landscape,

02:29:31.620 you know?

02:29:32.160 I think a lot of people,

02:29:34.100 I know it's been tough for my mother and for people of her generation,

02:29:38.180 because they had like this idea of America,

02:29:40.820 right?

02:29:40.960 Yes.

02:29:41.460 Yeah.

02:29:41.700 And like of what it stood for and the things we fought for and the things that our brothers

02:29:46.360 and sisters died for,

02:29:47.680 you know,

02:29:47.880 those,

02:29:48.180 all of that.

02:29:48.920 Yeah.

02:29:49.340 And those things,

02:29:50.240 a lot of those things now,

02:29:51.200 people look at them and the news will scoff at those things.

02:29:54.100 Or sneer,

02:29:54.560 yes.

02:29:54.800 Yes.

02:29:55.080 Even sneer,

02:29:55.900 not even take into account that some of these people died,

02:29:59.020 died,

02:29:59.560 or that their loved ones had to witness them die.

02:30:02.880 Like,

02:30:02.980 yeah,

02:30:03.360 you know,

02:30:03.780 and a lot of those people start to lose their hope,

02:30:09.580 you know?

02:30:10.180 Yeah.

02:30:10.640 They become,

02:30:11.140 they,

02:30:11.300 they lose orientation,

02:30:12.760 right?

02:30:13.220 I mean,

02:30:13.560 completely lose orientation,

02:30:15.400 which is crazy.

02:30:15.920 Like that's how much a comfortable landscape or common commonalities mean to people.

02:30:23.920 See,

02:30:24.060 the landscape doesn't have to be comfortable.

02:30:25.480 They were willing to go to war.

02:30:26.820 They were,

02:30:27.340 well,

02:30:27.480 the landscape has to be navigatable and navigation is not something you can do.

02:30:33.560 Primarily on your own,

02:30:34.900 right?

02:30:35.040 You have to do,

02:30:35.740 you have to obviously move yourself around,

02:30:37.900 but you have to be oriented and other people have to cooperate in the orientation with you

02:30:42.060 and you help each other.

02:30:43.620 And that's how you navigate a landscape.

02:30:46.180 And because of what you just said,

02:30:48.560 we're losing,

02:30:48.980 another way of talking about the meeting crisis,

02:30:50.800 not being at home,

02:30:51.960 domicile,

02:30:52.700 is people are feeling increasingly disoriented.

02:30:55.000 They don't know which way to go.

02:30:57.260 They don't know what they should be doing.

02:30:59.100 And so what they do is they fall into things by default.

02:31:01.740 And I'm not criticizing anybody.

02:31:03.240 No,

02:31:03.560 this is normal.

02:31:04.820 They fall into,

02:31:05.980 I just keep on keeping on and I just do what I've been doing.

02:31:09.620 That's where I think a lot of people are right now.

02:31:11.560 Yeah.

02:31:11.900 You know,

02:31:12.360 not only older folks,

02:31:13.340 but younger folks as well.

02:31:16.500 They're just wondering what I used to think I was part of something.

02:31:21.600 Now I don't feel like that anymore.

02:31:23.900 Looking out for just myself feels,

02:31:27.340 doesn't feel good.

02:31:28.900 So it's very small.

02:31:29.940 Yeah.

02:31:30.140 It's very,

02:31:30.760 very small.

02:31:31.340 Yeah.

02:31:31.640 It feels really small.

02:31:32.760 I mean,

02:31:32.940 I think there's moments of it where it's,

02:31:35.080 it's,

02:31:36.220 it's nice in a way where you're like,

02:31:38.140 oh,

02:31:38.280 I'm going to have some self-confidence.

02:31:39.860 Yeah.

02:31:39.920 Yeah.

02:31:40.060 Of course.

02:31:40.500 I'm going to achieve.

02:31:41.480 You have to have self-care.

02:31:42.440 Yeah.

02:31:42.560 But man,

02:31:42.980 it feels very lonely,

02:31:44.680 you know,

02:31:45.160 and I think a lot of people are,

02:31:46.720 are kind of wondering that.

02:31:48.240 So I wonder if that will lead people back to religion,

02:31:52.620 looking for purpose.

02:31:53.620 And I wonder why in America we've gone to like Canadians.

02:31:57.360 I mean,

02:31:57.820 you're Canadian,

02:31:58.780 you know,

02:31:59.920 and thank you for being Canadian.

02:32:01.340 I like them.

02:32:02.220 Well,

02:32:02.560 John Oliver is right about Canada,

02:32:04.160 right?

02:32:04.580 I don't like John Oliver,

02:32:05.840 uh,

02:32:06.220 like a lot,

02:32:06.960 but when he said that,

02:32:08.180 you know,

02:32:08.940 uh,

02:32:09.380 it's as if the United States and great Britain had a child that they

02:32:12.500 abandoned in the snow.

02:32:13.660 Right.

02:32:14.180 Right.

02:32:14.480 Uh,

02:32:14.700 so,

02:32:15.220 uh,

02:32:15.920 yeah,

02:32:16.200 we,

02:32:16.400 I mean,

02:32:16.780 we lived under a superpower,

02:32:20.460 great Britain,

02:32:20.940 and we slowly negotiated our way out.

02:32:23.540 We didn't have a revolution.

02:32:24.600 We slowly negotiate.

02:32:25.560 We don't have life,

02:32:26.480 liberty,

02:32:26.740 and the pursuit of happiness.

02:32:27.720 We have peace order,

02:32:28.840 a good government.

02:32:29.600 That's our,

02:32:30.020 that's our constitute.

02:32:30.940 We slowly negotiated our way out.

02:32:33.560 Right.

02:32:34.300 And you can't point to a point in history and you say,

02:32:37.580 that's when Canada was completely not a colony anymore.

02:32:41.340 It's there.

02:32:42.180 Maybe the statute of Westminster in 1931,

02:32:44.380 but I get,

02:32:45.080 it's a gradual thing.

02:32:46.360 Right.

02:32:47.120 And,

02:32:47.520 and,

02:32:47.600 and as we slowly did that,

02:32:49.780 the superpower emerged to the South of us that went on to conquer the world.

02:32:55.260 I mean,

02:32:55.600 America is a Titanic entity.

02:32:57.720 I mean,

02:32:59.080 like the second world war,

02:33:01.120 they take on the Japanese empire almost single handedly while manning most of the Western front.

02:33:07.860 And like,

02:33:08.680 it's Titanic.

02:33:09.660 It's huge.

02:33:10.660 And,

02:33:11.040 and they're just overwhelming.

02:33:12.780 And they continue to be so like,

02:33:14.900 even militarily,

02:33:15.760 you know,

02:33:16.140 you,

02:33:16.320 you take all of the other NATO countries and pit them against the American military.

02:33:19.740 The American military will destroy them in three days.

02:33:22.480 Like America is like,

02:33:24.200 like,

02:33:24.860 and Canada is like,

02:33:26.200 like,

02:33:26.660 imagine this,

02:33:27.500 there was a superpower.

02:33:28.600 And we slowly managed to get out of a shadow.

02:33:33.020 We're going to very carefully negotiate only to have this other one emerge.

02:33:36.880 Right.

02:33:37.500 That overshadows us powerfully and completely.

02:33:40.600 So we're always,

02:33:42.100 we're always in between.

02:33:43.860 We've always been in between and we're always much more about,

02:33:47.540 because we don't,

02:33:48.160 we can't enforce our way on the world.

02:33:50.260 We're more,

02:33:50.680 much more about perspective and negotiating.

02:33:53.260 We negotiate with,

02:33:54.380 we negotiated with great Britain and we negotiate with the United States.

02:33:57.200 And thankfully both great Britain and the United States are willing and have been,

02:34:02.840 have been willing to negotiate with us and to ally with us.

02:34:08.420 Yeah.

02:34:08.580 And you're willing and you get,

02:34:09.620 you get to be right there.

02:34:10.760 Net.

02:34:11.020 You,

02:34:11.180 you kind of have to have a,

02:34:12.640 Canada has always been a very peaceful place.

02:34:14.480 I feel like a lot of my friends there are good listeners.

02:34:16.940 Yes.

02:34:18.540 You know,

02:34:19.060 I think people are like,

02:34:21.140 like I'm surprised there's not a max,

02:34:23.640 a mass exodus to Canada.

02:34:27.180 But great posture too.

02:34:29.240 I don't know if you've ever seen the posture in Toronto.

02:34:31.440 You seen it?

02:34:32.360 Well,

02:34:32.480 yeah.

02:34:32.820 I mean,

02:34:33.140 part of it is because you can slouch in winter when you're wearing 10,000 layers of clothing.

02:34:37.720 That's a good point,

02:34:38.260 huh?

02:34:38.320 Right.

02:34:38.740 You got to,

02:34:39.100 you got to bear yourself well.

02:34:40.400 Yeah.

02:34:40.860 Oh,

02:34:41.080 and they do it.

02:34:41.780 You can barely,

02:34:42.940 people just,

02:34:43.560 you can barely see them.

02:34:44.480 They're so straight sometimes.

02:34:45.780 Yeah.

02:34:46.300 Just like watching something go by.

02:34:49.640 But yeah,

02:34:50.280 I find that,

02:34:51.020 that it's interesting that we're finding like guys like you,

02:34:54.480 Jordan Peterson,

02:34:56.000 and you guys work together.

02:34:58.360 We were colleagues.

02:34:59.420 Jordan was just down the hallway from me.

02:35:01.500 We continue to keep in communication.

02:35:05.220 Because he doesn't teach anymore now,

02:35:06.420 does he?

02:35:06.680 No.

02:35:07.180 I mean,

02:35:07.400 he had a very,

02:35:08.020 he had a very fraught relationship with the university.

02:35:11.160 Oh,

02:35:11.320 he did?

02:35:11.760 Yeah.

02:35:12.140 And,

02:35:12.540 yeah.

02:35:14.900 And I think there was fault on both sides in that issue.

02:35:18.560 I mean,

02:35:19.220 but I want to be very clear.

02:35:20.600 I have a really good relationship with the university of Toronto.

02:35:23.920 They've treated me,

02:35:25.880 well,

02:35:26.460 the psychology department at least has treated me extremely,

02:35:29.720 extremely well.

02:35:30.360 Yeah.

02:35:30.900 Right.

02:35:31.360 But Jordan and I were,

02:35:33.220 were colleagues.

02:35:34.280 We were very friendly colleagues.

02:35:36.260 We shared students.

02:35:37.580 We,

02:35:38.900 we were,

02:35:39.420 we would frequently find ourselves at the same conference,

02:35:41.920 at the same conference talking about stuff.

02:35:43.900 That's fun.

02:35:44.440 Was it fun to discuss things with him and be able to communicate?

02:35:47.380 Yeah.

02:35:47.540 Yeah.

02:35:47.580 Yeah.

02:35:47.680 Yeah.

02:35:47.860 Yeah.

02:35:48.020 And I want to say this very carefully because whatever you say about Jordan Peterson,

02:35:57.100 it'll bite you in the ass no matter what you say.

02:35:59.980 Because Jordan,

02:36:00.560 Jordan's a very divisive person.

02:36:02.140 but Jordan and it's reciprocated.

02:36:09.320 Jordan respects me.

02:36:10.140 And when Jordan respects you,

02:36:11.620 he interacts with you differently that if he doesn't respect you or he doesn't know if he should respect you.

02:36:19.180 Then he interacts that this is at least to my mind.

02:36:22.840 It could be a safety mechanism too.

02:36:24.200 It could be a safety mechanism.

02:36:25.720 It could also be that that's the kind of teacher he was.

02:36:28.900 There were three life-changing professors at the University of Toronto.

02:36:33.840 One,

02:36:34.440 I won't mention his name,

02:36:35.840 and the other two were myself and Jordan Peterson.

02:36:38.800 And so we often shared students.

02:36:45.160 Like I said,

02:36:45.740 I've always had and I've appreciated very good relationships with Jordan.

02:36:51.300 I don't agree with Jordan on certain things,

02:36:53.460 especially political things.

02:36:54.640 But you see,

02:36:58.880 like when,

02:36:59.420 when,

02:36:59.580 when some of the stuff dropped initially,

02:37:01.200 I would send,

02:37:01.920 I'd send him an email and I'd say,

02:37:03.540 here's my arguments against your position.

02:37:06.500 But I think they should treat you with respect.

02:37:08.580 You're making a point.

02:37:09.480 You should be treated with like the way he shouldn't have just been sneered at or yelled at.

02:37:13.600 They should have like,

02:37:14.300 they should have,

02:37:14.980 they should,

02:37:15.420 he deserved to be given a good hearing,

02:37:18.820 a good counter argument.

02:37:19.700 Yeah.

02:37:20.080 I think once you get,

02:37:21.120 once you get to a certain level kind of a popularity and once you're in the social media sphere,

02:37:26.380 in some sense,

02:37:28.040 you don't,

02:37:29.220 it becomes more of like a,

02:37:30.820 a Mad Max beyond Thunderdome out there.

02:37:33.160 And not as much of probably the grounds you guys are used to where people communicate regularly.

02:37:37.600 And so the thing is,

02:37:38.960 like when I would write him that email,

02:37:40.700 he would say,

02:37:42.300 thank you.

02:37:42.780 Like he,

02:37:43.120 he was appreciative or like,

02:37:44.460 you know,

02:37:44.800 I'll be on his,

02:37:46.280 you know,

02:37:47.560 channel with him and he'll,

02:37:49.060 you know,

02:37:49.600 he'll criticize postmodernism and I'll say,

02:37:52.060 well,

02:37:52.160 I think there's value to postmodernism and here's the value.

02:37:54.540 And here's like,

02:37:55.280 you know,

02:37:55.580 Foucault was saying this and,

02:37:57.020 you know,

02:37:57.740 and Derrida was saying,

02:37:58.940 and,

02:37:59.460 you know,

02:37:59.600 and he'll be responsive and respect,

02:38:01.380 respectful.

02:38:02.320 Yeah.

02:38:02.780 Right.

02:38:03.280 And so,

02:38:03.900 but,

02:38:04.220 but the,

02:38:05.660 the,

02:38:05.940 the,

02:38:06.160 the thing about that is,

02:38:07.600 is like it's,

02:38:10.620 it,

02:38:11.140 I want to maintain a good relationship with like,

02:38:14.820 when he,

02:38:15.300 somehow he found out I had diabetes and he sent me a,

02:38:17.640 like a supportive email.

02:38:19.040 And I appreciate that.

02:38:20.140 Like I,

02:38:21.300 I believe,

02:38:22.700 and this will get me in hot water with some people,

02:38:24.420 but I believe that Jordan is fundamentally a good person.

02:38:26.680 And I think he has very good intent.

02:38:28.600 And I think he's terrifically talented.

02:38:32.820 But,

02:38:33.960 well,

02:38:34.620 the things that make you adaptive make you prone to self-discipline.

02:38:37.600 And there's things that he also,

02:38:40.560 we fundamentally don't agree on.

02:38:42.760 Yeah.

02:38:43.260 But,

02:38:43.680 but,

02:38:44.660 right.

02:38:46.340 I think if people,

02:38:47.600 if we could get out of the polarization around him,

02:38:51.640 and to be fair,

02:38:52.440 I think he contributes to it.

02:38:53.420 I don't,

02:38:53.740 he's,

02:38:54.540 I think by his own admission,

02:38:55.700 he's not very good on Twitter.

02:38:56.980 Yeah.

02:38:57.260 Right.

02:38:57.580 Right.

02:38:58.060 Right.

02:38:58.340 No,

02:38:58.480 I think he would admit that.

02:39:00.040 I'm trying to think of what we talked about when I was with him,

02:39:02.320 when I chatted with him.

02:39:03.280 If we could,

02:39:03.680 if we could get out of polarizing and if he could get out of being caught up in that.

02:39:09.060 Like what's really impressive is that like,

02:39:10.880 like when I've talked to him or Jonathan and Pajot and I talked to him,

02:39:14.720 he'll get a lot of comments like do more of those Jordan,

02:39:17.140 do more of those.

02:39:18.160 Yeah.

02:39:18.380 Right.

02:39:18.820 Because for me,

02:39:19.880 I feel like that's the Jordan that I really respect and I have affection for coming to the fore.

02:39:25.820 And then there's this other aspect of him that I can't,

02:39:29.540 I can't connect to him.

02:39:32.020 Yeah.

02:39:32.180 Maybe he likes to get into the fracas of it,

02:39:34.380 you know?

02:39:34.840 Well,

02:39:34.960 see,

02:39:35.260 that's a philosophical difference between us.

02:39:37.800 I think trying to solve the meaning crisis at the adversarial level of propositional,

02:39:45.480 just ideas and ideologies and that kind.

02:39:47.920 I don't think it can be solved there.

02:39:49.160 We've been talking about a much different level and much different ways in which the

02:39:53.040 meaning crisis has to be solved.

02:39:54.500 I think I,

02:39:55.980 I,

02:39:56.100 and I don't,

02:39:56.980 this isn't a,

02:39:57.560 this isn't a scapegoat.

02:39:58.920 I did.

02:39:59.280 This costs me.

02:40:00.160 So this isn't,

02:40:00.700 this doesn't come for free.

02:40:01.700 This isn't a cop out.

02:40:02.620 I metapolitical.

02:40:03.880 I think that trying to get engaged with this problem in a political framing is fundamentally

02:40:10.580 a modal confusion.

02:40:12.280 It is to make that kind of profound mistake.

02:40:14.060 I think the left at its best reminds us that we're finite animals subject to fate,

02:40:18.840 and we have to show compassion to each other.

02:40:20.840 And the right at its best reminds us that we're also called to transcendence and the

02:40:26.420 cultivation of virtue.

02:40:27.600 And when they worked where they were correcting each other and helping each other emerge and

02:40:33.460 we're committed to democracy,

02:40:34.880 then we have something wonderful.

02:40:36.940 When they break that up into winner take all,

02:40:39.160 the other side is evil and I have to destroy them.

02:40:42.380 Then that society,

02:40:44.200 that democracy is doomed and over.

02:40:46.400 And I think that's where our political situation is.

02:40:48.840 So I refuse like Socrates,

02:40:50.900 I refuse and Plato,

02:40:52.600 I refuse to participate in the political domain because for me,

02:40:57.020 I do not.

02:40:57.700 And see,

02:40:58.260 Jordan wants to go in there guns blazing.

02:41:01.760 And that's a fundamental difference between us.

02:41:04.120 And so we've come to understand that we won't talk about those things.

02:41:08.540 Right.

02:41:08.720 Those are just ways you guys are.

02:41:10.340 And I'm glad we probably need people to be both ways.

02:41:13.260 I think,

02:41:13.700 I think some of the online stuff gets like,

02:41:15.800 um,

02:41:17.600 it gets,

02:41:18.320 uh,

02:41:18.940 addictive probably,

02:41:20.600 you know,

02:41:21.220 it is.

02:41:21.980 Yeah.

02:41:22.280 I think once you get into that world,

02:41:24.060 there's people that their whole lives are that world,

02:41:25.980 you know,

02:41:26.300 and he loves to argue points.

02:41:28.060 So I think if you want to argue stuff,

02:41:30.520 you can do it all day there,

02:41:32.380 you know?

02:41:33.040 But it's argument,

02:41:33.960 it's argument for,

02:41:35.560 uh,

02:41:36.160 Plato made a distinction between philosophia,

02:41:38.360 the love of wisdom and philonychia,

02:41:40.100 the love of victory.

02:41:41.020 And when it's the love of victory,

02:41:42.500 then you've lost the Socratic spirit.

02:41:45.240 Right.

02:41:45.540 Right.

02:41:46.000 Like I will disagree with people,

02:41:47.740 Bishop Maximus and I,

02:41:49.220 we disagree.

02:41:50.340 He's,

02:41:50.700 he is a committed and I think profound and virtuous Christian.

02:41:55.100 I'm not,

02:41:55.840 we know this.

02:41:56.920 And yet,

02:41:57.280 but so we disagree and profound.

02:42:00.280 And yet he's one of my dearest friends and we draw each other out and we

02:42:04.080 contribute to each other.

02:42:05.300 Right.

02:42:05.740 You can disagree.

02:42:06.780 You can argue,

02:42:07.800 you can challenge,

02:42:08.800 but you don't have to pursue demonization,

02:42:11.980 destruction.

02:42:12.500 You don't have to pursue confirmation porn.

02:42:14.440 You don't have to pursue narrative porn.

02:42:16.440 You know what the narrative bias is.

02:42:17.480 If narrative is,

02:42:18.600 I,

02:42:18.920 this is a real bot.

02:42:20.380 I can tell a story about that.

02:42:21.420 So it must mean I know what's going on.

02:42:23.640 Right.

02:42:24.120 And so we get simplistic narratives.

02:42:25.860 We get confirmation porn.

02:42:27.520 We get this,

02:42:28.220 we get this sort of self,

02:42:30.140 this self-righteous adversarial.

02:42:33.080 I'm going to destroy the other and I'll see.

02:42:35.380 It shows how good I,

02:42:36.240 and it's ultimately narcissistic.

02:42:38.660 I,

02:42:39.200 I don't want to participate in any of that crap.

02:42:42.660 Right.

02:42:43.020 Right.

02:42:43.660 And,

02:42:44.060 and,

02:42:44.160 and you can see I'm getting very animated.

02:42:46.520 It's okay.

02:42:47.380 It's interesting.

02:42:48.180 I,

02:42:48.280 I feel,

02:42:48.840 I feel,

02:42:49.160 I feel very strongly that,

02:42:52.400 sorry,

02:42:53.060 I,

02:42:53.240 I want to make it clear that I'm not arguing against Jordan and his absence.

02:42:57.100 He,

02:42:57.520 I would welcome if he was here and could defend his position.

02:43:00.120 Yeah.

02:43:00.300 Yeah.

02:43:00.420 I don't think that we are.

02:43:01.460 I think I have a decent enough relationship with him and I'm sure you have a great relationship with him.

02:43:05.140 So it's like,

02:43:05.440 I would understand if he wouldn't be upset.

02:43:08.500 I don't think so.

02:43:09.240 So I think he,

02:43:09.780 I think he understands that we're like,

02:43:11.580 yeah,

02:43:12.020 he,

02:43:12.320 he,

02:43:12.540 he's invited me to do things like to,

02:43:14.940 he's putting together a new course,

02:43:16.420 Peterson Academy.

02:43:17.460 And I've taught,

02:43:18.320 I've,

02:43:18.580 I've already done one course for him on intelligence,

02:43:21.300 rationality,

02:43:21.860 wisdom,

02:43:22.120 and spirituality.

02:43:23.520 But when he,

02:43:24.380 when he came to,

02:43:25.280 when he made the offer to me,

02:43:26.640 he said,

02:43:27.360 well,

02:43:27.740 I said,

02:43:28.100 Jordan,

02:43:28.340 I'm not a conservative.

02:43:29.400 I'm not a Christian.

02:43:30.820 And I have ideas other than yours.

02:43:33.020 He said,

02:43:33.440 first of all,

02:43:34.140 you can criticize me if you want.

02:43:35.520 You have complete academic freedom and you don't have to be a Christian.

02:43:39.240 And you don't have to tow the conservative line.

02:43:40.940 I just want you to come in and give the best possible course you could give.

02:43:46.220 And I said,

02:43:46.820 okay,

02:43:47.340 under those conditions,

02:43:48.540 I'll do it.

02:43:48.980 Cause why wouldn't I?

02:43:50.120 That's a completely virtuous context.

02:43:52.280 Yeah.

02:43:52.720 And I hate guilt by associating.

02:43:54.220 Well,

02:43:54.400 you're associating with it.

02:43:56.640 Really?

02:43:57.040 Yeah.

02:43:57.260 That's become a huge problem in politics overall and in society.

02:44:02.260 You,

02:44:02.660 you,

02:44:02.800 you,

02:44:03.080 you can't do that.

02:44:04.140 You're right.

02:44:04.380 You,

02:44:04.520 you like,

02:44:05.440 like it's so funny.

02:44:06.860 Like people don't even realize like the guilt,

02:44:09.240 guilt by association.

02:44:10.020 And then they'll,

02:44:10.520 they'll espouse sort of Foucault and postmodernism who are deeply influenced,

02:44:14.720 profoundly influenced by Heidegger,

02:44:16.340 who was literally a Nazi.

02:44:18.220 Right.

02:44:18.540 And it's like,

02:44:18.960 what,

02:44:19.180 what,

02:44:19.380 where is your guilt by,

02:44:20.540 how does your guilt by association metric work?

02:44:22.880 Right.

02:44:23.200 It doesn't work consistently.

02:44:24.480 It doesn't work coherently.

02:44:25.520 Um,

02:44:26.300 and,

02:44:27.360 you know,

02:44:27.920 I think that it's important that we give people a chance to enter into genuine dialogos

02:44:39.880 with us that we don't,

02:44:41.540 you know,

02:44:42.020 part of understanding forgiveness,

02:44:44.920 which is an important part of agape,

02:44:47.940 that's Jesus of Nazareth.

02:44:49.840 Forgiveness isn't like mercy.

02:44:52.080 I let you off the hook.

02:44:54.060 Forgiveness is I'm giving you the chance to enter into a relationship with me and even

02:45:00.380 giving myself to enter in a chance into relationship with you before it has been earned.

02:45:06.080 Because something has happened that I can't earn it until like,

02:45:10.460 I'm going to catch 22.

02:45:11.460 Unless you give me the chance to enter into the relationship,

02:45:14.520 I can't do the things that will allow me to re-earn your trust.

02:45:17.780 Right.

02:45:18.360 And so you need to give me that,

02:45:20.700 right?

02:45:20.840 You need to forgive.

02:45:21.880 I'm playing with the word a little bit,

02:45:23.560 right?

02:45:23.980 You need to forgive and make the,

02:45:27.160 so that we're not bound in reciprocal narrowing.

02:45:29.960 So there's a chance for reciprocal opening.

02:45:32.620 I think we've lost,

02:45:34.940 we've lost the commitment to that.

02:45:37.700 We've,

02:45:38.300 America used to,

02:45:39.460 I mean,

02:45:39.820 I'm a Canadian and I only get it through the media,

02:45:42.200 popular media,

02:45:42.780 but America used to be a place,

02:45:44.600 at least it seemed to me,

02:45:45.760 where people were initially given the benefit of the doubt.

02:45:48.940 Cause you were all Americans and you all believed in democracy.

02:45:51.700 As far as I can tell now,

02:45:53.220 I mean,

02:45:53.540 there's research to show this,

02:45:54.980 you know,

02:45:55.540 Republicans are more afraid of Democrats than they are of China and,

02:45:58.900 and vice versa.

02:45:59.880 Yeah.

02:46:00.240 Right.

02:46:00.500 And nobody believes in democracy anymore.

02:46:03.140 Everybody's convinced on both sides,

02:46:04.760 this,

02:46:05.520 like I'm in this to win,

02:46:07.980 not to make America better.

02:46:09.580 Right.

02:46:10.080 And so,

02:46:10.960 I mean,

02:46:11.540 I hesitate.

02:46:12.200 That's a great point.

02:46:12.860 Well,

02:46:13.340 you're an American and I'm glad you're nodding to that.

02:46:15.360 Cause I feel a little bit weird here commenting.

02:46:17.480 No,

02:46:17.620 I think that's a great point.

02:46:18.680 I hadn't really thought about that.

02:46:19.880 Everybody's in it to win.

02:46:20.960 They're not in it for how do we get out of this?

02:46:24.260 How do we get to a better place?

02:46:26.220 How can we all get to a place together that we could not possibly get to on

02:46:30.100 our own?

02:46:30.540 That was the proposal of democracy.

02:46:33.220 Yeah.

02:46:33.960 The proposal of democracy is we will all engage in self-deception,

02:46:37.580 but we,

02:46:38.780 but if you have a different point of view and I'm willing to enter into

02:46:41.540 genuine idea logos with you,

02:46:43.840 you can help me correct mine and I can help you correct yours.

02:46:46.760 Yeah.

02:46:46.960 And we can get to a place together that we couldn't get to on our own.

02:46:50.200 That is the great promise of democracy.

02:46:52.400 It's also the great promise of science.

02:46:53.960 John Dewey,

02:46:54.640 one of your great philosophers said those two,

02:46:57.660 when they're both working,

02:46:58.940 they work together profoundly.

02:47:01.160 That's what America was.

02:47:02.840 Well,

02:47:03.120 at least to my mind.

02:47:04.100 Yeah.

02:47:04.800 And did he do the Dewey decimal system?

02:47:06.520 Yes.

02:47:06.820 That's that John Dewey.

02:47:07.660 I knew it,

02:47:08.300 dude.

02:47:09.060 I knew he fricking did it.

02:47:11.540 God,

02:47:11.940 I can't believe some weirdo would do that,

02:47:13.360 but I'm grateful he did it.

02:47:14.540 Yeah,

02:47:14.740 me too.

02:47:15.260 Cause I needed to get those books.

02:47:17.760 Um,

02:47:18.760 I don't know if you saw this,

02:47:19.500 John,

02:47:19.620 it says the moon is open for business.

02:47:21.120 Entrepreneurs are racing to make billions that they're going to,

02:47:24.540 basically they're planning on opening the moon where people can go there and have

02:47:27.600 like a little colony.

02:47:29.100 Hmm.

02:47:31.020 That's like,

02:47:32.660 as if the moon's going to become the new,

02:47:34.600 like,

02:47:35.900 you know,

02:47:36.500 we're heading with the Mayflower,

02:47:38.480 you know?

02:47:39.260 Yeah.

02:47:39.560 Well,

02:47:39.900 I mean,

02:47:41.240 that's,

02:47:41.900 that's,

02:47:42.480 I mean,

02:47:42.740 that's part of what's happened to the American mythos,

02:47:46.120 right?

02:47:46.980 Um,

02:47:47.520 is the,

02:47:48.400 the,

02:47:48.840 the,

02:47:49.120 the frontier,

02:47:50.160 the new world,

02:47:51.520 the frontier.

02:47:52.300 And it's gone now.

02:47:53.020 I mean,

02:47:53.160 there's nowhere left to go.

02:47:54.280 Right.

02:47:54.400 And,

02:47:54.520 and we try,

02:47:55.260 and Star Trek tried to propose that space would be the final frontier and we're still

02:47:58.220 playing with that.

02:47:58.780 But the problem is space isn't the same way as another continent.

02:48:02.960 Right.

02:48:03.300 Um,

02:48:04.180 and yeah,

02:48:05.080 I think,

02:48:05.560 uh,

02:48:06.080 uh,

02:48:06.600 America is,

02:48:08.020 I hadn't thought about this.

02:48:11.000 Sorry.

02:48:11.200 I'm,

02:48:11.400 this is just coming to me.

02:48:12.600 No,

02:48:12.800 it's okay.

02:48:13.240 It's just the news.

02:48:13.860 It says,

02:48:14.120 uh,

02:48:15.200 with its Artemis missions,

02:48:17.600 the U S space agency aims to lay the foundations for the first human settlements beyond

02:48:21.560 earth and pave the way for extra planetary colonization.

02:48:25.220 Uh,

02:48:25.740 and that business is at the core of its strategy.

02:48:28.680 So I've wondered about this,

02:48:30.940 uh,

02:48:31.280 that,

02:48:31.900 uh,

02:48:32.120 maybe there's a hunger in America for another frontier.

02:48:35.480 Uh,

02:48:36.420 I can see that.

02:48:37.500 Yeah.

02:48:38.180 And maybe trying to make that happen.

02:48:41.500 I,

02:48:42.020 I,

02:48:42.300 yeah,

02:48:43.260 they,

02:48:44.600 there's been some historians who talked about that and how the frontier kept moving

02:48:48.460 until they hit sort of the Pacific ocean.

02:48:50.620 And then there was a problem because this is oversimplistic,

02:48:54.160 but generally what happened is people who were relatively more stable and were more sociable

02:49:00.680 stayed and people that were a little bit fringe would move to the frontier and then

02:49:06.040 they kept moving and they kept moving and then they end up in California kind of thing.

02:49:10.080 Australia.

02:49:10.880 Right.

02:49:11.100 Right.

02:49:11.260 Yeah.

02:49:11.560 Or Australia.

02:49:12.500 Right.

02:49:12.900 And then the problem is,

02:49:14.080 right.

02:49:14.720 We lost,

02:49:16.380 we,

02:49:16.720 we lost that or the United States,

02:49:19.400 the Canada didn't grow up that way,

02:49:21.380 but the United States lost that ability.

02:49:23.300 It lost that vision.

02:49:24.680 Yeah.

02:49:24.900 Maybe that,

02:49:25.780 maybe,

02:49:26.140 maybe there's even like a,

02:49:27.280 a bit of a spiritual dimension,

02:49:28.560 uh,

02:49:29.480 to this.

02:49:30.080 There's a,

02:49:30.720 uh,

02:49:31.000 trying to attempt to get a sense of,

02:49:34.300 uh,

02:49:35.520 well,

02:49:35.820 we,

02:49:36.060 there's a frontier we can open up,

02:49:37.980 uh,

02:49:38.220 we can orient towards.

02:49:39.860 I hadn't,

02:49:40.680 that's interesting.

02:49:41.960 Yeah.

02:49:42.280 Yeah.

02:49:42.520 Well,

02:49:42.920 it just makes me wonder like,

02:49:45.220 you know,

02:49:45.680 what,

02:49:46.280 if it's just a money thing so that rich people could look cool and take pictures on the moon,

02:49:50.820 like what big vow?

02:49:52.900 I mean,

02:49:53.080 I guess you could open up maybe a nice restaurant there that only really rich people could go to.

02:49:58.760 Yeah.

02:49:59.120 I mean,

02:49:59.420 if it,

02:49:59.620 if it's just a business thing and all we're doing is sort of flinging phalluses into the sky,

02:50:03.980 like we've been doing recently.

02:50:05.940 Um,

02:50:06.480 yeah,

02:50:06.740 that's just having,

02:50:07.900 that's just modal confusion.

02:50:09.880 It's just trying to like,

02:50:10.720 they're just trying to have,

02:50:11.580 sort of have sex with the universe.

02:50:13.320 Yeah.

02:50:13.660 That's what it feels like to me.

02:50:14.860 Like a little bit of like a weird kind of like,

02:50:17.180 let's inflict ourselves onto the world because we can afford it.

02:50:21.380 One of the rockets even looked like a penis.

02:50:22.960 It was really embarrassing.

02:50:24.040 Really?

02:50:24.260 Somebody with psychological training.

02:50:25.720 I'm looking at this and going like,

02:50:27.000 that's a penis.

02:50:27.780 Yeah.

02:50:28.140 And you're thrusting it into the sky.

02:50:30.500 Right.

02:50:30.880 And it's like,

02:50:31.400 uh,

02:50:31.820 it's really weird.

02:50:32.960 Uh,

02:50:33.420 so yeah,

02:50:34.360 you're right.

02:50:34.740 It could become that,

02:50:35.760 but you know,

02:50:36.980 if it becomes,

02:50:37.920 if it becomes Plymouth,

02:50:40.460 right,

02:50:40.720 if it comes,

02:50:41.220 if it becomes a stepping stone to maybe opening up colonization of other planets,

02:50:46.680 then that could become something other.

02:50:49.220 I don't know.

02:50:50.140 There it is right there.

02:50:51.200 Blue origin.

02:50:52.520 There you go.

02:50:52.960 See what I mean?

02:50:53.660 Yeah.

02:50:54.080 That thing.

02:50:56.580 Somebody's just slanging a wiener out in a space,

02:50:59.040 homie.

02:50:59.620 Well,

02:50:59.880 it's,

02:51:00.100 it's,

02:51:00.380 you know,

02:51:00.780 my,

02:51:01.060 my dick's bigger than yours.

02:51:02.300 Yes.

02:51:02.940 Yeah.

02:51:03.360 Who doesn't want to just rip their wiener off and just hum it into the damn ether?

02:51:08.360 You know?

02:51:10.180 Um,

02:51:11.380 I remember at one point I hated my penis for some reason.

02:51:14.460 Really?

02:51:14.660 And I remember I wanted to cut it off and mail it to,

02:51:18.780 Africa to like a starving country and they could use it for a food.

02:51:22.860 Isn't that crazy to think that?

02:51:24.700 Um,

02:51:25.420 well,

02:51:26.340 maybe,

02:51:26.960 but I mean,

02:51:27.880 a lot of people get into,

02:51:29.620 um,

02:51:30.580 a very ambivalent relationships to their,

02:51:33.120 uh,

02:51:33.880 sexuality and to,

02:51:35.440 you know,

02:51:36.240 uh,

02:51:36.700 the genitals.

02:51:37.880 Um,

02:51:38.780 has that happened over time?

02:51:39.760 You think a lot of folks,

02:51:40.900 I think it's always,

02:51:41.860 I think it's a perennial thing about human beings.

02:51:43.760 I think human beings,

02:51:45.260 right.

02:51:47.040 Sex,

02:51:47.440 sex pulls us in the two directions.

02:51:49.460 Sex pulls us towards the animal,

02:51:52.800 the finite.

02:51:53.500 We're having sex because we're finite.

02:51:55.140 We're limited.

02:51:55.580 We're trying to make more kids,

02:51:57.120 right?

02:51:58.200 But sex can also call us,

02:52:00.740 and you,

02:52:01.280 you talked about this.

02:52:02.520 There's a possibility of ecstasy.

02:52:04.240 There's a possibility,

02:52:05.540 like,

02:52:05.800 and you have like tantra,

02:52:06.900 which is,

02:52:07.480 right,

02:52:08.140 people understanding that sex is a powerful way to reciprocally open with another human being.

02:52:14.760 And if you frame it the right way,

02:52:16.120 you can go into ecstasy.

02:52:17.240 You can go into self-transcendence.

02:52:19.080 You can,

02:52:19.500 you can,

02:52:20.060 you can touch aspects of your psyche that are otherwise inaccessible.

02:52:26.040 And so we've always understood,

02:52:28.380 I think,

02:52:29.000 that sex is a powerful thing.

02:52:32.880 And it's,

02:52:35.920 it's,

02:52:36.360 it's got this tension in it.

02:52:37.640 And one of the ways we try to just alleviate that tension is just,

02:52:41.400 well,

02:52:41.660 I'm just going to collapse to one side or the other.

02:52:43.400 We'll,

02:52:43.640 we'll just,

02:52:44.660 right,

02:52:44.920 we'll just do the one or we'll just do the other.

02:52:48.480 And again,

02:52:49.720 it's,

02:52:50.000 it's Plato to my mind.

02:52:51.600 Like the toughest thing for me to be,

02:52:54.740 to do loving wisely insofar as I have,

02:52:58.960 is to hold those two together about my sexuality,

02:53:02.620 right?

02:53:03.140 Is to acknowledge the animal part,

02:53:05.680 but don't identify with it.

02:53:07.800 And to acknowledge the ecstatic part,

02:53:09.980 but don't think I'm a God and identify with it,

02:53:12.360 but try and keep the two talking to each other all the time.

02:53:17.560 Yeah.

02:53:18.040 I think I had just gotten so disappointed.

02:53:20.300 Like I think,

02:53:21.240 cause in my twenties,

02:53:22.340 I was looking at pornography a lot,

02:53:24.280 you know,

02:53:24.780 choose that.

02:53:26.100 Oh,

02:53:26.260 I could see that.

02:53:27.060 Yeah.

02:53:27.440 Over going on a date or something like,

02:53:29.300 cause it was less,

02:53:30.560 uh,

02:53:32.000 committal.

02:53:32.800 It was way less scary than like possibly disappointing a woman or possibly getting into a relationship even like,

02:53:39.340 like even if I had appeased a woman and then things got closer,

02:53:43.540 that was very scary.

02:53:45.500 And I remember,

02:53:46.540 yeah,

02:53:46.860 at one point I was just so sick of myself.

02:53:48.740 I was like,

02:53:49.820 I will just,

02:53:51.160 just mail my penis.

02:53:53.760 And I guess I thought Africa,

02:53:54.920 cause it was like a starving country.

02:53:56.000 Or something that could use it as like a soup meat or whatever.

02:53:58.480 But just to put you in some,

02:54:00.080 uh,

02:54:00.600 august company,

02:54:01.940 you know,

02:54:02.480 uh,

02:54:03.020 you know,

02:54:03.440 uh,

02:54:03.800 St.

02:54:04.160 Paul talked about cutting off your left hand and Jesus did too,

02:54:07.820 if it offends you.

02:54:09.040 Right.

02:54:10.020 We can,

02:54:10.860 we can misidentify with our body or parts of our body in a way like you just described.

02:54:16.520 And thank you for sharing that.

02:54:18.060 That can really narrow us down,

02:54:19.680 reciprocally bind us,

02:54:20.660 get us locked in and we can feel trapped.

02:54:23.020 And we feel like the only way out member Eric from is to destroy.

02:54:26.520 Wow.

02:54:27.020 Is to destroy.

02:54:27.900 Right.

02:54:28.820 Um,

02:54:29.480 now I'm glad,

02:54:31.700 I'm glad you're not there.

02:54:32.880 And I'm,

02:54:33.340 I'm really glad you're,

02:54:34.840 you got out of that without having to damage yourself.

02:54:36.860 Yeah,

02:54:36.980 me too.

02:54:37.780 I think there were just times where I was like,

02:54:39.440 I'm going to fucking hum this thing over the fence.

02:54:41.780 Yeah.

02:54:42.160 You know,

02:54:42.580 just cause you just wanted to get rid of it.

02:54:44.060 It felt like the cause of your,

02:54:46.020 Oh,

02:54:46.260 I remember saying something not quite as self mutilating as that,

02:54:50.860 but I remember saying for the longest time,

02:54:52.900 if there was a button I could push and it would turn off my sexuality and leave everything else in place,

02:54:57.420 I'd push that button.

02:54:58.220 Oh yeah.

02:54:58.880 I won't push that button now.

02:55:00.620 Yeah.

02:55:01.140 I won't push that button now.

02:55:02.240 It's different.

02:55:03.300 And that's again,

02:55:04.100 the gift that has been given to me by other people,

02:55:06.940 especially by my,

02:55:08.400 my,

02:55:08.620 my,

02:55:08.860 my,

02:55:09.360 this wonderful woman that I'm with.

02:55:11.800 Um,

02:55:12.840 and so,

02:55:13.700 yeah,

02:55:15.080 uh,

02:55:15.620 I,

02:55:15.880 I can understand that.

02:55:16.920 I can understand how you can get to that place,

02:55:18.500 but I think,

02:55:19.160 you know,

02:55:19.380 the rocket is also just a projected version of that.

02:55:23.020 Oh,

02:55:23.180 it's like,

02:55:23.540 Oh,

02:55:23.700 it's just trying to show off.

02:55:24.580 Yeah.

02:55:24.700 And it seems like rich people are doing a lot of their own space.

02:55:28.540 It's like,

02:55:29.140 everything has become very privatized.

02:55:30.920 That's one thing that kind of scares me.

02:55:32.720 Well,

02:55:32.940 yeah.

02:55:33.340 And then we're losing,

02:55:34.080 we're losing the we we're losing.

02:55:35.880 What can we do together and get to a place that we couldn't get on our own?

02:55:39.400 And,

02:55:39.600 you know,

02:55:39.900 flinging the phallus into the sky is a way of saying I can get there on my own.

02:55:43.680 And the problem is I bet you can,

02:55:45.880 but so what,

02:55:47.540 right?

02:55:47.900 The,

02:55:48.240 the,

02:55:48.540 the price you pay for that is you,

02:55:51.080 you haven't brought everyone else along.

02:55:52.740 And then once you get there,

02:55:54.180 you've lost that capacity that only civilization has.

02:55:58.000 Yeah.

02:55:58.040 You're there by yourself.

02:55:59.140 You're there by yourself.

02:55:59.840 And,

02:56:00.060 and,

02:56:00.340 and you,

02:56:00.760 and you lose all of,

02:56:02.300 all,

02:56:02.520 all of what you,

02:56:04.660 all,

02:56:04.900 all the often frustrating,

02:56:07.220 but also the wonderful ways in which human beings challenge us beyond ourselves,

02:56:11.100 other human beings.

02:56:12.040 Yeah.

02:56:13.140 Yeah.

02:56:13.540 It's like even,

02:56:14.480 um,

02:56:15.840 yeah,

02:56:16.080 it's like,

02:56:16.380 even like the Olympics and stuff.

02:56:17.680 Everybody's like,

02:56:18.700 it takes different sides and points of views.

02:56:20.760 It used to just be,

02:56:21.540 you cheered for your team.

02:56:23.240 You know,

02:56:23.720 I wonder if it's like that in other countries or if it's just America doing all this bullshit.

02:56:27.780 Well,

02:56:28.180 I mean,

02:56:28.420 the,

02:56:28.580 the problem was the,

02:56:29.380 the,

02:56:29.760 the,

02:56:30.080 the Olympics also,

02:56:30.980 I mean,

02:56:31.300 they,

02:56:31.500 they got corrupted by politics,

02:56:33.180 right?

02:56:33.820 I mean,

02:56:34.040 it's even back,

02:56:34.920 you know,

02:56:35.300 36 Olympics and they're in Berlin and Hitler's,

02:56:39.720 they're right.

02:56:40.040 The Nazis are running the Olympics.

02:56:41.880 Oh,

02:56:42.340 right.

02:56:42.720 And then you,

02:56:43.600 and then you got the,

02:56:44.520 the Olympics got corrupted by the cold war.

02:56:47.280 Um,

02:56:47.920 right.

02:56:48.280 And they've always been pretty fallible to,

02:56:50.140 uh,

02:56:51.160 somebody taking them out.

02:56:52.440 Like,

02:56:53.300 yeah,

02:56:53.780 I mean,

02:56:54.020 whenever,

02:56:54.480 whenever there's an arena in which human excellence could come to the fore,

02:56:57.900 there are also people who want to grab the shiny thing and bullshit you with it and manipulate you around it.

02:57:04.060 Um,

02:57:04.660 that's always,

02:57:05.460 uh,

02:57:05.900 that's always going to be the case.

02:57:07.560 Um,

02:57:08.320 and that's a perennial problem.

02:57:10.340 And so again,

02:57:12.600 the,

02:57:13.140 the answer to that is not let's win that game.

02:57:16.840 To my mind,

02:57:18.360 the answer is let's stop playing that game together.

02:57:22.620 Yeah.

02:57:23.080 It seems like that's a thing that's really been,

02:57:26.480 that's gotten rough in America is,

02:57:29.200 I mean,

02:57:29.440 for one,

02:57:29.860 our news,

02:57:30.720 the faith in our news dissolved.

02:57:32.980 Yeah.

02:57:33.260 The legacy media has no legitimacy.

02:57:35.720 And I mean,

02:57:36.140 it happened like that.

02:57:37.700 I felt like maybe I'm wrong,

02:57:39.220 but it felt like it happened.

02:57:40.240 Well,

02:57:40.420 the cable,

02:57:41.260 like you said a long time ago,

02:57:42.360 the cable fragmented the networks,

02:57:44.100 right?

02:57:44.580 And so when you don't have a consensus,

02:57:46.580 out there,

02:57:47.140 when you don't have a listening consensus,

02:57:48.640 that doesn't get reflected back as a consensus authority for you.

02:57:53.020 When you're Walter Cronkite and so many people are listening to you,

02:57:56.680 they,

02:57:57.280 right.

02:57:57.660 And they're all sharing that together.

02:57:59.100 A lot of trust gets placed in you by a lot of people.

02:58:01.860 When you're on some little cable thing,

02:58:04.260 right.

02:58:04.700 Then that's 24 hours a day.

02:58:06.360 Yeah.

02:58:06.580 Yeah.

02:58:06.760 Yeah.

02:58:06.960 Yeah.

02:58:06.980 And then it,

02:58:07.800 so,

02:58:08.120 you know,

02:58:08.820 CNN changed thing.

02:58:10.340 I remember when I was watching CNN,

02:58:12.220 when it first came on and I got like a shiver went through me,

02:58:14.660 I was watching it and I realized the journalists are interviewing each other.

02:58:19.880 I grew up with journalism with the journalists went to where the story was

02:58:23.020 and interviewed the people that the story was happening to.

02:58:25.140 And I'm watching CNN and it's,

02:58:26.940 they're talking to each other.

02:58:27.780 And I go,

02:58:28.200 Oh no,

02:58:29.600 this,

02:58:30.180 this is re this is really bad.

02:58:32.720 This is good.

02:58:33.380 This is going to isolate itself more and more and more and become more and more about

02:58:37.480 itself.

02:58:37.780 Very,

02:58:38.220 very rapidly.

02:58:39.020 Yeah.

02:58:39.900 And it has,

02:58:40.700 I used to watch CNN.

02:58:41.480 I thought it was like the place I would go for news.

02:58:43.760 And then like,

02:58:44.520 I think five years ago or something,

02:58:45.920 I just,

02:58:46.220 I was like,

02:58:46.600 I don't,

02:58:47.320 this just isn't news anymore.

02:58:48.520 I don't know,

02:58:49.080 but the news lost itself.

02:58:50.480 And so then conspiracy theories grew.

02:58:52.240 They fill the vacuum.

02:58:53.700 Because of course,

02:58:54.600 people are trying to figure out the reality of news.

02:58:56.800 They're trying to figure out real information.

02:58:59.320 So I guess people are searching for real information.

02:59:02.880 You know,

02:59:03.480 they're trying to figure it out.

02:59:04.640 Well,

02:59:04.760 what the conspirituality shows you though,

02:59:07.060 at least I would argue this,

02:59:08.520 is they're not just searching for information,

02:59:10.040 for facts.

02:59:11.380 They're,

02:59:11.800 they're searching for meaning.

02:59:13.000 They're searching for belonging.

02:59:14.200 They're searching for connection.

02:59:15.640 Like Socrates,

02:59:16.480 they don't want just empty truths.

02:59:17.940 They want transformative truths.

02:59:19.280 And that's what,

02:59:19.980 like if,

02:59:20.700 like,

02:59:21.320 like,

02:59:21.800 like if you watch like a QAnon meeting,

02:59:25.500 you know,

02:59:25.820 yeah,

02:59:27.120 they'll,

02:59:27.740 they'll be the conspiracy language,

02:59:29.300 but it looks like a church service.

02:59:31.220 They're,

02:59:31.580 they have like,

02:59:32.620 there's songs.

02:59:33.620 And then there's somebody gives like a sermon and then they're supporting each other and they're offering child care.

02:59:39.600 And it's like,

02:59:40.800 and you,

02:59:41.620 like,

02:59:41.840 it's like,

02:59:42.440 like,

02:59:42.640 I'm not condoning anything here,

02:59:43.840 but it's like,

02:59:44.860 as a scientist,

02:59:45.480 I look at that and I go,

02:59:46.680 you know,

02:59:47.900 they're,

02:59:48.460 they're creating a new religion.

02:59:50.660 Yeah.

02:59:51.140 Because what people want is they don't just want the facts,

02:59:54.800 right?

02:59:55.360 They want the facts that connect them to themselves,

02:59:59.020 to each other,

02:59:59.600 to the world and to what's ultimate.

03:00:02.400 In a lot of cultures are in a lot of like,

03:00:05.120 you know,

03:00:05.340 America has become extremely diverse.

03:00:07.780 You know,

03:00:08.000 you have a lot of diversity issues like in France right now,

03:00:10.880 like where Canada too.

03:00:12.300 Yeah.

03:00:12.800 Yeah.

03:00:12.960 Is it,

03:00:14.200 is that just a phase that we go through as places diversify,

03:00:19.780 like schools of thought changing?

03:00:21.580 Like,

03:00:22.000 are we eroding sometimes or are we evolving?

03:00:25.060 Do you feel like that's where I sometimes wonder,

03:00:27.100 like,

03:00:28.220 you know,

03:00:28.640 is diversification,

03:00:30.300 is it too soon in some of these places?

03:00:32.780 Is it,

03:00:33.600 not is it right or is it wrong?

03:00:35.280 Because it's,

03:00:36.020 it is what it is,

03:00:37.000 you know?

03:00:38.540 But what is the byproducts of that?

03:00:41.420 And because some of it seems to be kind of scary in some spots,

03:00:45.040 you know?

03:00:46.320 Yeah.

03:00:46.800 I mean,

03:00:47.400 the,

03:00:48.540 and it may be too big of a fish to fry,

03:00:50.240 you know?

03:00:51.380 Well,

03:00:51.900 I mean,

03:00:52.260 calm community,

03:00:53.480 common unity.

03:00:54.660 Um,

03:00:55.160 the,

03:00:55.660 the problem we're facing is we've,

03:00:57.680 uh,

03:00:58.540 I think for a good reason,

03:00:59.740 we've decided,

03:01:00.560 we've,

03:01:00.940 we've realized that we've marginalized groups of people unfairly.

03:01:04.880 We've disenfranchised them.

03:01:06.540 They haven't been included.

03:01:07.540 They have valuable things to say.

03:01:09.620 Uh,

03:01:10.080 uh,

03:01:10.500 somebody,

03:01:12.740 I'm,

03:01:13.060 I'm recording some episodes with,

03:01:14.720 uh,

03:01:15.980 Greg Thomas.

03:01:16.720 He's been,

03:01:17.340 he's a,

03:01:17.800 uh,

03:01:18.100 he's a black man and he's been teaching me how much jazz and the blues

03:01:21.560 contributed to American culture,

03:01:23.220 to American democracy.

03:01:24.400 It's been really,

03:01:25.480 that series is going to come out eventually.

03:01:26.880 This has been,

03:01:27.040 yeah,

03:01:27.140 we just went to Graceland the other day.

03:01:28.620 So,

03:01:29.120 yeah.

03:01:29.400 And so,

03:01:30.020 right.

03:01:30.300 And,

03:01:30.860 and he talks about being an omni American and being a radical moderate or like,

03:01:35.800 and talking about,

03:01:36.840 uh,

03:01:37.580 a cultural worldview rather than a racialized worldview.

03:01:40.980 Um,

03:01:41.540 and you know,

03:01:42.220 I,

03:01:42.420 I,

03:01:42.720 I applaud his courage cause it,

03:01:44.200 you know,

03:01:44.400 it's difficult to make these things and,

03:01:46.740 uh,

03:01:47.560 make these kinds of statements.

03:01:48.660 But I,

03:01:49.820 I think what he's putting his finger on is yet.

03:01:52.180 We,

03:01:52.400 we have to do this thing.

03:01:54.180 We,

03:01:54.520 we,

03:01:54.720 we have to stop hurting people just because of who they are.

03:01:59.260 And I firmly agree with that,

03:02:01.560 but we haven't been,

03:02:04.080 we haven't been,

03:02:04.700 remember the ecology of practices.

03:02:06.040 We haven't been counterbalancing that with,

03:02:08.080 okay,

03:02:08.600 good,

03:02:09.320 let's do that.

03:02:10.080 But what we need to do is we need to balance that with what are we doing to

03:02:13.480 strengthen community?

03:02:14.800 This is called complexification.

03:02:16.320 So let me,

03:02:16.900 let me give you a biological example of this.

03:02:19.000 We,

03:02:19.340 you and I started out as a zygote,

03:02:20.740 a fertilized egg.

03:02:21.820 Initially the egg just,

03:02:23.460 the cells just reproduce,

03:02:24.600 but you know,

03:02:25.160 then,

03:02:25.320 then they,

03:02:25.760 they start to do something.

03:02:26.960 They start to differentiate.

03:02:28.460 They start to become skin cells and lung scales,

03:02:30.660 cells and hearts.

03:02:31.440 Oh,

03:02:31.680 wow.

03:02:32.220 Right.

03:02:33.000 Differentiation.

03:02:33.580 Do they fight a little or not?

03:02:34.440 Well,

03:02:34.880 here's the thing,

03:02:35.700 but that's the thing.

03:02:36.700 While they are differentiating,

03:02:39.180 they are simultaneously,

03:02:40.400 literally self organ,

03:02:41.960 self organizing.

03:02:42.900 They're also organizing into organs.

03:02:45.620 And so there,

03:02:46.980 a living thing is simultaneously differentiating and integrating.

03:02:51.720 Right.

03:02:52.020 And when I am some,

03:02:53.080 look at my hand,

03:02:53.740 my hand is very differentiated,

03:02:55.980 but it's also integrated.

03:02:57.720 And when it,

03:02:58.200 when,

03:02:58.520 and when it does both of those,

03:02:59.860 it complexifies,

03:03:01.260 it gets emergent abilities,

03:03:03.480 emergent powers.

03:03:04.520 And if you only integrate,

03:03:06.240 you get stultifying stillness.

03:03:08.800 And if you only diversify,

03:03:11.020 you get frustrating fragmentation.

03:03:13.360 You need to have them properly integrated,

03:03:16.180 right?

03:03:16.920 So that you get complexification.

03:03:19.760 I think we should be,

03:03:20.920 I'm not saying we should stop pursuing,

03:03:23.740 the diversification that we're doing.

03:03:26.180 There are good moral arguments for doing this.

03:03:29.200 And there's even good cultural arguments,

03:03:31.120 right?

03:03:31.520 But what we actually should be pursuing is complexification of our culture,

03:03:36.800 which means we should also be countering balancing that with,

03:03:40.140 yes,

03:03:40.240 but what binds us together.

03:03:42.020 And simple liberal tolerance doesn't do it.

03:03:46.500 It's not enough.

03:03:47.440 It's thin soup.

03:03:48.880 And we've lost,

03:03:49.800 we've lost the civic religions.

03:03:52.260 We've lost the sacred religions.

03:03:54.760 We've even lost a shared popular culture.

03:03:57.080 And just being taught,

03:03:58.740 you know,

03:03:59.020 well,

03:03:59.260 let's just all be nice.

03:04:00.680 That's not,

03:04:01.480 that,

03:04:01.940 that's not realistic.

03:04:03.020 It's not enough.

03:04:04.000 It's not enough.

03:04:04.540 You need a shared vision.

03:04:06.460 Again,

03:04:07.440 I want everybody to hear what I'm saying.

03:04:09.240 Pursue the diversification.

03:04:11.040 This is,

03:04:11.360 I hear it.

03:04:11.800 That's right.

03:04:12.420 But it also needs to be counterbalanced with also pursue the integration so

03:04:17.420 that we complexify,

03:04:18.780 so that we literally grow and have emergent abilities to deal with the

03:04:23.160 problems that we're all collectively sharing.

03:04:26.440 Yeah,

03:04:26.680 I think that's right.

03:04:27.740 I mean,

03:04:28.120 you know,

03:04:28.480 I'm a,

03:04:28.880 my father's from Nicaragua and I'm mostly viewed as just a white guy,

03:04:32.300 you know?

03:04:34.280 But it's been like,

03:04:36.300 it definitely feels like they've made just why a lot of times the media,

03:04:40.060 it feels like,

03:04:40.940 I'm not saying this is real,

03:04:42.280 right?

03:04:42.440 But it feels like,

03:04:44.440 and I have friends that feel like that,

03:04:45.920 the,

03:04:46.240 that like white Christian men are just made to be like the enemy,

03:04:49.400 you know,

03:04:50.160 and that they've never done anything good.

03:04:52.860 Demonizing people will,

03:04:53.940 will always end up.

03:04:54.980 It's been horrible because there's so many good people that now start,

03:04:58.880 to say,

03:05:00.560 okay,

03:05:00.720 you want to make me the enemy?

03:05:01.880 Then that's what I'll be.

03:05:03.240 It's almost like,

03:05:04.560 not that's what I'll be,

03:05:05.820 but then I'm going to separate myself from this society because I'm not even

03:05:10.200 respected in it.

03:05:11.560 Yeah.

03:05:11.800 Does that make any sense?

03:05:12.680 Yeah.

03:05:13.040 It makes direct sense to me as a father.

03:05:16.160 My son was in a program in which he,

03:05:19.060 he would come home and he would feel dejected because he was demonized that

03:05:23.660 way.

03:05:25.280 And at one point he said,

03:05:26.920 well,

03:05:27.220 you know what?

03:05:27.700 And this is the effect this had on him.

03:05:30.700 I'm going to join the right because at least they'll work on my behalf and

03:05:35.000 they'll stop demonizing it.

03:05:36.260 And I had to sit him down.

03:05:37.400 I said,

03:05:37.680 son,

03:05:38.120 don't do that.

03:05:39.360 Like you're giving in to like the shadow side of what's happening to you is

03:05:43.360 coming out.

03:05:43.980 But I,

03:05:44.580 like I had empathy.

03:05:45.880 Like,

03:05:46.380 like if you're demonizing somebody,

03:05:48.700 do we really like,

03:05:50.520 do we really think that,

03:05:51.640 oh,

03:05:51.980 you've made me feel really horrible and guilty about myself for like all a long

03:05:56.420 time.

03:05:57.380 I'm just going to join your cause.

03:05:59.440 No,

03:06:00.100 some people will do that because they'll give in,

03:06:02.440 but a lot of people are going to give that the finger and they're going to

03:06:05.680 fight back.

03:06:06.580 Because like,

03:06:08.360 like you can't do that with people.

03:06:11.180 So we,

03:06:12.120 again,

03:06:12.440 we've got to get the balance.

03:06:13.460 How can we take responsibility for what has happened without just transferring the group

03:06:20.320 that we're going to hate?

03:06:21.620 Right.

03:06:22.120 And this is a really tricky problem.

03:06:26.260 Yeah,

03:06:26.560 it's very complex.

03:06:27.540 It's,

03:06:27.740 it's very hard.

03:06:29.120 And like,

03:06:31.120 I applaud people like Greg,

03:06:32.820 I'm mostly on this issue.

03:06:34.800 I feel that I'm,

03:06:36.040 I don't have the requisite education or expertise.

03:06:39.720 And I also feel that,

03:06:41.280 you know,

03:06:42.120 I'm not the right person to,

03:06:44.520 so I'm trying to really,

03:06:47.180 really listen to people who I think do have,

03:06:52.120 the proper place and role to try and wrestle with this and learn from them as best I can.

03:06:58.380 Yeah.

03:06:59.320 Yeah.

03:06:59.760 Well,

03:06:59.880 I think that's always a good idea,

03:07:01.200 you know,

03:07:01.760 I mean,

03:07:02.220 it's just,

03:07:02.580 it's,

03:07:02.820 it's just,

03:07:03.520 it's nice to think about and talk about,

03:07:05.800 you know,

03:07:06.100 it's nice to be able to share that thought and,

03:07:08.980 and just have it be discussed or heard or whatever,

03:07:13.860 you know?

03:07:14.280 And I think we should,

03:07:15.180 I don't think,

03:07:15.980 I think,

03:07:16.400 I think making things,

03:07:18.240 topics that we can't discuss,

03:07:20.140 that we need to discuss is really,

03:07:21.980 really problematizing things for a lot of people.

03:07:25.000 Their problems don't go away by talking about them as if they don't exist,

03:07:29.080 right?

03:07:29.500 Yeah.

03:07:29.800 And you create,

03:07:30.620 you create people that are,

03:07:32.820 then you get people into fear.

03:07:34.920 So I,

03:07:35.640 I know an increasing number of people who are,

03:07:39.500 I can see that the fires of resentment are building in them.

03:07:43.720 Yeah.

03:07:43.920 And it's dangerous.

03:07:45.320 It's like,

03:07:45.740 this is like the,

03:07:46.300 what,

03:07:46.600 like the Weimar Republic,

03:07:48.260 right?

03:07:48.580 The Versailles treaty will crush the enemy into the dust because they're demons.

03:07:53.000 And you just,

03:07:53.900 you end up breeding a demon that's 10 times worse.

03:07:56.340 And so I,

03:07:59.260 like,

03:08:00.160 I hope that we can get to a place where we can do that.

03:08:04.340 We can do the kind of thing that you and I are trying to do here,

03:08:07.040 where we can do this,

03:08:07.900 like,

03:08:09.660 you know,

03:08:10.360 this,

03:08:10.840 this dialogos conversation where we wrestle with things and we do it honestly.

03:08:16.440 And,

03:08:16.800 and people are allowed to make mistakes without immediately being condemned.

03:08:20.340 Like people are so afraid to make a mistake.

03:08:22.320 Like you can't learn if you can't make mistakes.

03:08:26.280 Like people have to be able to make mistakes and say,

03:08:28.580 oh,

03:08:29.060 I'm sorry.

03:08:29.540 I didn't realize like,

03:08:30.780 oh yeah,

03:08:31.120 maybe that was a racist thing that I didn't know.

03:08:33.320 Right.

03:08:33.800 I really honestly didn't know.

03:08:34.980 Can you accept that?

03:08:35.600 I didn't know.

03:08:36.320 And then can you help me?

03:08:38.260 Right.

03:08:38.440 But if we get to a place where you can't make mistakes,

03:08:40.620 then you can't learn.

03:08:42.100 And like,

03:08:42.960 it feels in a lot of places,

03:08:44.560 people are walking on eggshells and everybody's terrified about making a mistake.

03:08:48.640 And then everything gets this chilly superficial kind of conversation.

03:08:54.100 And then,

03:08:55.320 and then we can't solve any of these problems.

03:08:58.420 Well,

03:08:58.440 I think it's kind of where Hollywood has kind of pigeonholed itself with some of its

03:09:01.560 creations these days.

03:09:03.140 And they're paying the price.

03:09:04.080 I mean,

03:09:04.440 so they're,

03:09:05.260 they're claiming that this is what everybody believes.

03:09:07.640 And then the box office is repeatedly telling them,

03:09:10.100 no,

03:09:10.780 they don't.

03:09:11.320 And they resent it.

03:09:12.660 And they're not listening.

03:09:14.280 Well,

03:09:14.460 it's almost like they have like,

03:09:15.420 like they're trying to create Stockholm syndrome with with their audiences,

03:09:20.320 you know,

03:09:20.820 not the,

03:09:21.520 not that they need to be one way or the other,

03:09:23.420 but just that can we have some reality?

03:09:26.100 Because what gets to be scary is as a regular person,

03:09:29.380 you start to question your own fucking reality.

03:09:32.060 You're like,

03:09:33.320 am I,

03:09:34.240 there's no way that I'm insane suddenly,

03:09:37.600 you know,

03:09:38.940 what we should go back to make,

03:09:43.860 making great stories that are great myth that afford people being imaginal.

03:09:49.700 Yeah.

03:09:50.040 That call them to wisdom and virtue.

03:09:52.100 And then within that,

03:09:53.640 ask them to consider issues of race and gender and economic status,

03:09:59.900 rather than hitting people over the head with condemning messages or very superficial representation

03:10:07.440 so that people watch this and they say,

03:10:10.120 this is boring or I'm tired of getting preached at.

03:10:13.200 Like,

03:10:13.840 again,

03:10:15.000 like here's a,

03:10:17.040 here's like right here.

03:10:18.160 There's a point I want to make.

03:10:19.340 We should be able to criticize the method without automatically being told that we are criticizing the goal.

03:10:28.240 I think there's a goal.

03:10:29.620 Should we reduce racism and racial tension?

03:10:33.060 Should we make things more fair between like the sexes and the genders?

03:10:37.740 Yes.

03:10:39.660 And because I really believe that,

03:10:41.700 I think there are,

03:10:42.880 there are good and bad ways of doing that.

03:10:44.920 And we should be able to work together and I could be wrong and you could be wrong.

03:10:48.840 And we should be able to criticize the methods.

03:10:52.100 If we actually believed in the goal,

03:10:53.800 if we didn't believe,

03:10:54.620 if we actually believe in the goal,

03:10:56.060 we actually believe in helping the people,

03:10:57.800 we should be able to criticize the methods like science does.

03:11:02.720 In order,

03:11:03.300 right?

03:11:04.020 Instead of like,

03:11:04.840 right,

03:11:05.140 I'm no,

03:11:05.860 actually,

03:11:06.220 I'm just want to plant my flag.

03:11:07.600 Right.

03:11:07.940 Right.

03:11:08.760 Right.

03:11:08.960 And so like it's.

03:11:12.400 No,

03:11:12.820 it's a,

03:11:13.180 it's a great point.

03:11:13.980 We should be able to criticize the methods without saying we're criticizing the goal.

03:11:17.460 Yes.

03:11:17.780 And it's gotten to the point now where you can't even raise your hand and ask a question without being lambasted so much in society or online that it gets debilitating to,

03:11:28.420 to any real conversation.

03:11:30.760 Yeah.

03:11:31.180 And again,

03:11:31.860 I would,

03:11:32.480 I would say that.

03:11:33.800 I think I can honestly say that.

03:11:35.200 I would say that equally to the left and the right.

03:11:37.140 Let me criticize the methods.

03:11:39.700 And it doesn't mean I'm necessarily criticizing the goal.

03:11:42.400 I agree with the left.

03:11:43.940 Your goals of making the world more compassionate,

03:11:47.100 not making people the victims of fate,

03:11:49.640 the fate of race or the fate of the economic class.

03:11:52.380 Yeah.

03:11:52.680 They keep doing that.

03:11:53.760 Right.

03:11:54.020 Keep doing that.

03:11:54.640 But also I get.

03:11:55.740 Well,

03:11:55.920 they keep doing that over and it's like,

03:11:57.260 come on,

03:11:57.560 we've heard this story a million times.

03:11:59.440 Well,

03:11:59.680 but,

03:11:59.860 but when are people going to start to live a new truth unless you start to tell them a new story?

03:12:03.600 But that's it.

03:12:04.220 The,

03:12:04.520 the,

03:12:04.860 it's like.

03:12:05.460 Like that should never stop because that's a perennial thing.

03:12:08.680 Human beings are all,

03:12:09.700 but you have to have the method that doesn't dull people to it.

03:12:13.980 And I also want to say this to the right.

03:12:15.680 You're supposed to be calling people to personal responsibility and virtue.

03:12:20.420 Are your leaders exemplars of virtue and personal responsibility?

03:12:25.960 They don't seem to be right.

03:12:28.280 Yeah.

03:12:28.960 I agree with your goals.

03:12:30.360 Are your methods like,

03:12:31.800 you know how you convince people to pursue virtue,

03:12:34.060 be as virtuous as you can exemplify it,

03:12:37.460 be like Socrates,

03:12:38.860 be like Siddhartha,

03:12:39.680 be like Jesus.

03:12:41.460 Right.

03:12:42.180 Yeah.

03:12:42.480 So,

03:12:42.900 so I'm sorry.

03:12:43.620 I'm probably pissing everybody off because I'm criticizing both the left and the right.

03:12:46.880 No,

03:12:47.120 I don't think,

03:12:47.600 look,

03:12:47.780 I think those are challenges that everybody faces,

03:12:50.160 you know,

03:12:50.620 and when your back's against the wall or you feel like your back is against the wall,

03:12:54.620 whoever that may be,

03:12:55.720 you're going to,

03:12:57.440 you're going to retaliate more than you are like entertain.

03:13:06.320 Yes.

03:13:06.540 If that makes sense.

03:13:07.300 Yeah,

03:13:07.460 it does.

03:13:08.040 You know,

03:13:08.440 so I think,

03:13:09.040 and a lot of people are feeling that way.

03:13:11.360 It's interesting how so many groups at the same time can feel that way.

03:13:14.600 That's,

03:13:14.840 what's kind of interesting to me.

03:13:16.100 They can have opposite beliefs and be almost exactly in their behavior.

03:13:20.820 And that is like,

03:13:22.020 as a,

03:13:22.360 as a psychologist,

03:13:23.380 a cognitive scientist,

03:13:24.620 I like,

03:13:25.120 I,

03:13:25.300 that is,

03:13:25.780 I'm sorry,

03:13:26.720 this sounds arrogant.

03:13:27.360 I don't mean it to me,

03:13:27.980 but it's so apparent to me.

03:13:29.180 It's like,

03:13:29.480 you're both acting the exact same way.

03:13:32.120 And both sides were like,

03:13:33.360 Oh no,

03:13:33.760 we're like,

03:13:34.620 they're reeling right now at me.

03:13:35.840 But it's like,

03:13:36.620 you,

03:13:36.960 you,

03:13:37.280 you,

03:13:37.680 you're saying opposite.

03:13:38.740 I hear you saying and shouting opposite things,

03:13:41.040 but you seem to be acting in this almost the exact same way.

03:13:44.840 Uh,

03:13:45.280 and,

03:13:45.960 um,

03:13:46.940 and so that for me,

03:13:48.460 that's,

03:13:48.900 that's,

03:13:49.180 that's a sign that like,

03:13:51.580 well,

03:13:51.860 that's a sign that we're in trouble.

03:13:52.900 That's an,

03:13:53.320 a sign that,

03:13:53.780 that like we,

03:13:56.440 we,

03:13:56.680 we don't even have debate.

03:13:57.840 We've lost the logos.

03:13:59.520 We've even lost debate.

03:14:00.800 We,

03:14:00.920 we,

03:14:01.240 we've just got like sort of verbal rugby or something going on.

03:14:05.120 I don't know what it is.

03:14:05.780 Right,

03:14:06.080 right,

03:14:06.320 right.

03:14:07.440 Yeah,

03:14:07.840 it is.

03:14:08.660 I think it really is.

03:14:09.660 You know,

03:14:10.460 um,

03:14:11.120 I saw in some of your work,

03:14:12.180 you talk about psychedelics and psychedelic,

03:14:14.380 you know,

03:14:14.960 and the value of that in,

03:14:17.300 um,

03:14:17.840 like,

03:14:18.800 uh,

03:14:19.280 getting people to be able to access and help solve issues that are inside of them.

03:14:25.320 Trauma.

03:14:25.840 Yes,

03:14:26.180 yes.

03:14:26.440 Right.

03:14:26.820 Yes,

03:14:27.020 yes.

03:14:27.220 Have you had experience with it?

03:14:29.300 I've done psychedelics in my past.

03:14:31.460 Um,

03:14:32.140 I can't.

03:14:32.600 Like to party or to learn?

03:14:34.340 To learn.

03:14:35.360 So,

03:14:36.060 this was a long time ago.

03:14:37.720 Um,

03:14:38.720 I was about three or four years into doing Tai Chi Chuan.

03:14:42.100 I was doing it religiously in both senses of the word.

03:14:43.820 I was doing it like hours every day.

03:14:45.060 I was going to the dojo three or four times.

03:14:46.920 I was getting all the,

03:14:47.840 you know,

03:14:48.160 where you're hot like lava and cold like ice and all those woo experiences and everything.

03:14:52.760 Um,

03:14:54.160 and then something happened that sort of twigged me.

03:15:01.040 Um,

03:15:01.840 so some people came to me,

03:15:04.760 I was in graduate school and they said,

03:15:05.980 uh,

03:15:06.620 you've changed.

03:15:07.420 What's different about you?

03:15:09.200 You're much more balanced and flexible.

03:15:10.580 And I realized,

03:15:11.340 oh,

03:15:11.500 the Tai Chi is changing me.

03:15:13.920 I'm so concentrated on all the wonderful,

03:15:16.200 bizarre experience.

03:15:17.120 And I'm not paying attention to how my character,

03:15:20.420 my cognition,

03:15:21.340 my con,

03:15:21.780 like how I'm showing up,

03:15:23.200 how I'm,

03:15:23.500 how I'm,

03:15:24.100 you know,

03:15:24.340 comporting myself.

03:15:25.160 That was being changed.

03:15:26.220 Other people were noticing that.

03:15:27.700 And I,

03:15:27.920 and I,

03:15:28.740 and that's,

03:15:29.360 that's been something I've been looking for.

03:15:31.000 I keep looking for when,

03:15:32.440 when somebody recommends a practice,

03:15:33.940 does it transfer broadly,

03:15:35.900 deeply,

03:15:36.380 and effectively into their,

03:15:38.360 many domains of their life.

03:15:39.760 Does it percolate between different layers of their psyche?

03:15:43.480 And so it's like,

03:15:44.460 oh,

03:15:44.920 oh,

03:15:45.420 oh.

03:15:46.100 And so,

03:15:47.260 and I had a very good friend and I won't out that person,

03:15:51.040 of course,

03:15:51.460 because of course these things are still technically illegal,

03:15:54.160 but that,

03:15:54.680 that's going to change soon too.

03:15:56.020 Um,

03:15:57.020 and,

03:15:58.040 uh,

03:15:58.580 they offered to,

03:15:59.460 uh,

03:16:00.340 do magic mushrooms.

03:16:02.260 And I said to myself,

03:16:03.680 and this is explicitly how I framed it.

03:16:05.980 And I said,

03:16:06.840 I want to,

03:16:07.880 go on magic mushrooms and I want to do Tai Chi Chuan on when I'm,

03:16:14.540 when I'm high,

03:16:15.560 because I want to know what it's like,

03:16:18.260 what it,

03:16:18.580 what's the,

03:16:18.960 what,

03:16:19.140 what it feels like,

03:16:20.140 what the,

03:16:20.300 what the phenomenology is like when,

03:16:22.360 because the psychedelics reduce your egocentrism,

03:16:25.060 right?

03:16:25.320 Yeah.

03:16:25.740 And they,

03:16:26.300 and they open up that connectedness.

03:16:28.020 You're falling in love with reality.

03:16:29.100 I want to know what it's like to do Tai Chi like that.

03:16:33.120 Because if I do,

03:16:34.820 what I can do is I can remember it,

03:16:37.100 right?

03:16:37.720 And what I can,

03:16:38.400 and I can use that like a touchstone.

03:16:40.160 And so what I can do is,

03:16:41.880 right?

03:16:42.860 I can practice and I'll have this deep felt memory of what it was like.

03:16:47.260 And I can keep calibrating the practice so that I can get into that state

03:16:51.100 without having to use the drug.

03:16:53.240 And so that's how I did it.

03:16:54.960 And was it helpful?

03:16:56.140 Yes.

03:16:57.720 Yes.

03:16:58.360 It worked.

03:16:59.200 Yeah.

03:16:59.500 That,

03:16:59.740 that worked as a strategy.

03:17:01.160 Now that,

03:17:02.040 that brings me to something like,

03:17:04.760 so remember the processes that make you adaptive,

03:17:08.920 make yourself deceptive.

03:17:10.140 Real quick.

03:17:10.520 So it works as a strategy in the sense it helped you get deeper.

03:17:12.580 And then in subsequent experiences,

03:17:14.960 you was able to still get deeper because of that.

03:17:17.620 I can,

03:17:18.020 I can get to that state now in Tai Chi Chuan without having to be on mushrooms.

03:17:22.340 Dang boy.

03:17:23.080 He's saving money.

03:17:26.760 You know?

03:17:29.440 Well,

03:17:30.120 and other things,

03:17:31.420 uh,

03:17:31.720 and other things.

03:17:33.140 Um,

03:17:34.220 yeah.

03:17:34.840 I mean,

03:17:35.200 I can't,

03:17:35.660 I couldn't do it now if I wanted to because of,

03:17:37.840 I have Meniere's in my left ear.

03:17:39.700 So.

03:17:40.080 Meniere's?

03:17:40.780 Yeah.

03:17:41.040 It's a,

03:17:41.760 they don't know what causes it,

03:17:42.900 but my inner ear can,

03:17:44.200 and I can't talk about it too long because it can trigger an attack.

03:17:46.800 Uh,

03:17:47.260 my,

03:17:47.520 my,

03:17:47.740 my,

03:17:47.820 my,

03:17:47.920 what a fricking crazy disease.

03:17:49.820 Yeah.

03:17:50.220 It's a bad disease.

03:17:51.520 Um,

03:17:51.900 my,

03:17:52.280 my,

03:17:52.520 my inner ear will suddenly fill with liquid and I'll get the worst vertigo you can possibly

03:17:57.480 imagine.

03:17:58.000 Oh,

03:17:58.420 a buddy gets out.

03:17:59.120 If you say his ex wife's name around.

03:18:00.820 Yeah.

03:18:01.420 Yeah.

03:18:01.740 That I can,

03:18:02.680 I can fucking start running in a circle,

03:18:04.280 but psychedelics,

03:18:06.360 right?

03:18:06.900 Psychedelics,

03:18:07.360 what they do is we,

03:18:10.600 and,

03:18:10.660 and,

03:18:10.680 and we're not,

03:18:11.560 we're not,

03:18:11.920 you know,

03:18:12.640 and I work with,

03:18:13.540 uh,

03:18:13.840 I talked to,

03:18:14.340 I was,

03:18:15.040 uh,

03:18:15.220 uh,

03:18:15.400 Alex Benier,

03:18:16.240 he's got his new book out,

03:18:17.200 the bigger picture.

03:18:17.960 I was on when he released it.

03:18:19.500 I,

03:18:19.700 I talked to people who do psychedelic,

03:18:21.420 uh,

03:18:21.980 work.

03:18:23.100 Um,

03:18:23.840 uh,

03:18:25.100 and,

03:18:25.400 you know,

03:18:25.560 and I've read people like Robin Carhart Harris and others.

03:18:27.960 The,

03:18:28.320 the,

03:18:28.460 the idea is you,

03:18:29.600 when you're dreaming,

03:18:30.200 you're basically doing what psychedelics do.

03:18:31.880 So the idea is your brain is always taking a sample of information from the world and it's trying to predict what,

03:18:39.360 like we've talked about this,

03:18:40.840 right?

03:18:41.300 Now you face two problems in that.

03:18:44.000 One is you can call,

03:18:46.920 you can do what's called overfitting to the data.

03:18:48.840 You can get all locked into the,

03:18:50.540 the patterns that are in the sample,

03:18:52.620 but don't actually aren't in the world.

03:18:55.160 Okay.

03:18:55.600 Right.

03:18:56.140 Right.

03:18:56.380 Does that make sense?

03:18:57.040 Yeah,

03:18:57.160 it makes sense.

03:18:57.700 It's called overfitting to the data.

03:18:59.100 You can also underfit to the data,

03:19:00.860 which is you don't pick up on patterns that are,

03:19:03.300 that are in the sample that are also,

03:19:05.300 that are actually in the world.

03:19:06.600 So there's two kinds of errors you can make.

03:19:09.100 The problem you face is that they're in a trade-off relationship.

03:19:11.740 As you try to solve one,

03:19:12.940 you make the other worse.

03:19:14.000 And so you're constantly caught between them.

03:19:16.060 And so what you do,

03:19:18.120 machine learning,

03:19:19.040 like,

03:19:19.380 like deep learning,

03:19:20.500 these machines that are AI and stuff.

03:19:22.740 Yeah.

03:19:22.940 Oh yes.

03:19:23.560 Like,

03:19:23.940 yeah,

03:19:24.140 yeah.

03:19:24.440 So they face this problem and what they periodically do is they will throw noise into the

03:19:30.320 system.

03:19:30.980 They will shut off half the nodes or they'll put in static information.

03:19:34.660 And that,

03:19:35.020 what that does is it prevents the system from overfitting to the data.

03:19:39.300 It breaks up the frame enough so that the machine will go to a wider framing,

03:19:43.580 like we were talking about earlier.

03:19:45.220 And that looks like that's what you're doing in dreaming.

03:19:48.200 That's what psychedelics do.

03:19:50.800 So psychedelics basically get parts of the brain that normally don't talk to each other to talk to each other.

03:19:57.040 Oh yeah.

03:19:57.780 Right.

03:19:58.000 Like the in-laws dinner or whatever.

03:19:59.720 Something like that.

03:20:00.680 Yeah.

03:20:00.940 And so the thing is you,

03:20:04.200 they have to be put in the right context because when you are,

03:20:07.720 when you're sort of unmooring your salience landscape,

03:20:10.300 right,

03:20:11.540 that could possibly lead to insight,

03:20:14.180 or you could also rabbit hole and get into your own personal bullshit really,

03:20:18.160 really powerfully.

03:20:19.040 So,

03:20:19.960 you know,

03:20:20.460 back in the sixties,

03:20:21.300 people talked about set and setting.

03:20:22.820 That's still true.

03:20:23.520 You got to have set and setting,

03:20:24.660 but you also have to have,

03:20:26.680 you know,

03:20:27.540 I'll two,

03:20:29.140 two more S's.

03:20:30.140 One of the words is a multi-select.

03:20:31.660 It's sapiential.

03:20:32.520 That means having to do with wisdom.

03:20:33.940 You need,

03:20:34.500 you need to set,

03:20:35.440 if you're going to do psychedelics,

03:20:37.560 you need to make sure you're doing lots of other practices that challenge your

03:20:42.000 proclivity,

03:20:43.340 your proneness to self-deception.

03:20:45.340 That's what I mean by a sapiential context.

03:20:47.740 And then like how indigenous people,

03:20:49.740 it's neat,

03:20:50.260 which they do that.

03:20:51.260 They have the shamans usually,

03:20:53.400 right?

03:20:53.900 And you also have to have it in a sacred context,

03:20:56.960 right?

03:20:57.420 Where there's a context in which your altered states of consciousness are not just

03:21:02.660 running around free.

03:21:04.220 They have a worldview that can properly home them and integrate them in.

03:21:08.360 Yeah.

03:21:08.500 I went to,

03:21:08.940 I did an ayahuasca ceremony,

03:21:10.560 right?

03:21:10.960 Right,

03:21:11.380 man,

03:21:11.800 I didn't,

03:21:13.040 it helped me so much.

03:21:15.380 It was unbelievable.

03:21:17.120 Yes,

03:21:17.500 it can.

03:21:18.140 And I'd had,

03:21:18.800 I'd been sober for a few years and I got,

03:21:22.220 and I'd done a ton of therapy,

03:21:23.580 but I'd never been able to put,

03:21:26.940 I couldn't,

03:21:27.160 I couldn't adjust my perspective.

03:21:28.640 Right.

03:21:29.120 I couldn't adjust the framework that I was looking at.

03:21:31.440 Yes,

03:21:31.460 exactly.

03:21:32.280 And when it,

03:21:33.320 when it helped me to the immense,

03:21:35.940 it did,

03:21:36.840 I feel like it literally did a thousand sessions of therapy in two days.

03:21:42.200 That's what the research shows.

03:21:43.200 The research shows.

03:21:44.740 Unbelievable.

03:21:45.420 If put in the right context.

03:21:47.140 And that's what we were in.

03:21:48.280 I mean,

03:21:48.420 we were in a place,

03:21:50.000 they had a shaman,

03:21:50.920 they had all these little light,

03:21:52.460 like candles and all these.

03:21:54.300 And there was a lot of music that really put you in a special space.

03:21:58.640 Yeah.

03:21:58.760 Everybody was wearing white gowns and robes were in there.

03:22:02.800 There's a lot of symbolism.

03:22:03.820 Yes.

03:22:04.040 Yes.

03:22:04.320 There was a ton of symbolism.

03:22:05.440 So you,

03:22:05.860 there was a lot of like,

03:22:07.660 um,

03:22:08.100 traditional like moments that we went through before and throughout the experience.

03:22:12.180 It was like a nine hour experience.

03:22:13.520 And,

03:22:14.320 and also like a day,

03:22:16.240 there was this time where we would get up with these maracas or shakas or whatever.

03:22:20.860 Yeah.

03:22:21.380 Chakras.

03:22:22.020 And we'd have to shake like these little thing with a sand in them.

03:22:25.060 Yeah.

03:22:25.200 Yeah.

03:22:25.380 And you'd have to shake them and do this like dance ritual.

03:22:28.100 Like there was a lot of rituals.

03:22:30.200 Yes.

03:22:30.600 That made it very,

03:22:32.160 made the whole experience more powerful and more transferable.

03:22:35.020 So you,

03:22:35.720 you can integrate it.

03:22:36.680 You can transfer it,

03:22:37.620 bleeds to different levels of your psyche,

03:22:39.800 bleeds into different domains of your life.

03:22:41.600 Like I was talking about,

03:22:42.600 that's exactly it.

03:22:43.380 The problem with that now too,

03:22:45.200 though,

03:22:45.360 is that's becoming a business.

03:22:47.580 Well,

03:22:47.840 it's becoming a business.

03:22:48.840 It's becoming commodified and,

03:22:50.400 you know,

03:22:50.920 uh,

03:22:51.140 uh,

03:22:51.440 an ayahuasca tourism is.

03:22:53.140 Oh yeah,

03:22:53.560 totally.

03:22:54.820 Yeah.

03:22:55.220 Like,

03:22:55.500 come on down here.

03:22:56.540 Have your experience that you can go back and tell your friends about.

03:22:59.480 Yeah.

03:22:59.740 That kind of thing.

03:23:00.400 And there are some of the flowers,

03:23:01.580 even there's like a sexy woman on the fly.

03:23:03.140 Like,

03:23:03.360 what does this have to do with it?

03:23:04.500 Yeah.

03:23:04.820 Yeah.

03:23:05.140 Yeah.

03:23:05.460 Yeah.

03:23:05.660 Yeah.

03:23:05.820 Yeah.

03:23:06.060 Like it just,

03:23:06.740 but yeah,

03:23:07.260 it's scary that that's how everything becomes.

03:23:09.840 I,

03:23:09.860 do you think down the road we will look back at society like thousands of years

03:23:13.520 from now and be like,

03:23:14.060 what a poor left turn that society took.

03:23:17.840 You think we'll be back in like villages and looking back?

03:23:20.760 Like,

03:23:21.020 what do you think it,

03:23:21.980 the long game looks like?

03:23:23.320 If you have any predictions,

03:23:25.100 I don't know about predictions.

03:23:26.400 I know about a possibility.

03:23:27.840 My good friend,

03:23:28.780 Jordan Hall talks about a possibility that we haven't had before.

03:23:32.960 So until recently,

03:23:34.340 in order to get the benefits of civilization,

03:23:36.220 we had to live close to each other.

03:23:38.100 And then that gives us all the noxious side effects,

03:23:41.200 but the,

03:23:41.640 the force multiplication of civilization was worth it.

03:23:44.920 Right.

03:23:46.280 But now what we can do is we can,

03:23:48.420 we can do all the civilization stuff virtually,

03:23:51.140 and then we could live in small scale communities.

03:23:55.960 He calls this the Sivium Project.

03:23:57.840 So we could live in,

03:23:58.980 you know,

03:23:59.500 groups of 150 people growing our own food.

03:24:02.220 We could live in this way that is psychologically,

03:24:05.380 physiologically healthy,

03:24:06.880 and yet we could still benefit from,

03:24:09.820 you know,

03:24:10.500 that,

03:24:10.900 that massive collective agency,

03:24:14.100 that collective wisdom,

03:24:15.060 the collective intelligence that civilization affords.

03:24:17.680 And we could,

03:24:18.660 now we,

03:24:19.200 we don't have to physically live like with,

03:24:22.260 right,

03:24:22.560 right.

03:24:22.860 We could,

03:24:23.380 and so we now have the possibility where we could turn to,

03:24:28.080 we could live psychologically,

03:24:31.120 physiologically,

03:24:32.000 physically as we evolved to,

03:24:34.640 while participating in a hyper-technological civilization with all of the force

03:24:40.800 multiplication that that gives you.

03:24:42.700 And this is a real possibility.

03:24:44.680 And,

03:24:44.820 you know,

03:24:45.480 he's done stuff to try and make it happen,

03:24:47.480 but,

03:24:47.740 you know,

03:24:47.960 it's like a,

03:24:48.700 you know,

03:24:50.480 the lone voice crying in the wilderness kind of thing.

03:24:52.980 Until he isn't.

03:24:54.120 Until he isn't.

03:24:54.740 And I hope he keeps coming back to it.

03:24:58.220 That's a real possibility.

03:24:59.700 We could take that turn.

03:25:01.540 For me,

03:25:02.220 if we could take that turn while building up,

03:25:04.960 you know,

03:25:06.160 these kinds of colleges of practices,

03:25:08.380 both individually and collectively are talking about.

03:25:11.400 And he and I have talked about how those would integrate and support each other.

03:25:15.420 That could,

03:25:16.300 you know,

03:25:16.720 that could,

03:25:17.220 that could be a turn away from some of the,

03:25:21.440 the darkness that many of us feel we're,

03:25:23.760 we're entering into.

03:25:25.160 Yeah.

03:25:26.840 Cool,

03:25:27.240 man.

03:25:27.420 I don't think I have anything else to think about.

03:25:29.680 I mean,

03:25:30.140 I could probably think about more,

03:25:31.400 but I don't know if I could do it,

03:25:32.460 you know?

03:25:32.880 Yeah.

03:25:33.340 Yeah.

03:25:33.740 Yeah.

03:25:33.920 Sometimes it's a lot to think,

03:25:35.060 you know?

03:25:35.580 Yeah.

03:25:36.080 Yeah.

03:25:36.460 Whenever you get burned out from thinking,

03:25:37.880 what do you like to do?

03:25:40.340 When I get burned out from thinking,

03:25:42.700 sometimes I'd like to do embodied stuff like Tai Chi Chuan or meditate.

03:25:49.360 Sometimes I'd like to read some very good literature where I'm putting myself,

03:25:54.240 sort of into somebody else's thinking.

03:25:57.500 Do you read fiction ever?

03:25:59.120 Yeah.

03:25:59.400 I'm reading,

03:25:59.900 I'm reading The Last of the Wine,

03:26:02.500 which is a really wonderful historical fiction about Athens and the Peloponnesian War.

03:26:07.700 and we're following these two characters as they form a profound platonic relationship.

03:26:13.320 But platonic actually means also sexual at that time.

03:26:16.300 Oh,

03:26:16.600 yeah.

03:26:16.960 But,

03:26:17.340 but,

03:26:17.680 I'll do it.

03:26:18.880 but,

03:26:19.320 but,

03:26:19.380 but they're encountering like you,

03:26:22.060 they're like,

03:26:23.100 they meet,

03:26:23.660 they meet Socrates is there.

03:26:25.860 Oh,

03:26:25.880 wow.

03:26:26.220 And so for me,

03:26:26.680 it's like,

03:26:27.000 I get to meet Socrates and like,

03:26:28.880 and hang around with him.

03:26:29.740 Plato,

03:26:30.160 I just,

03:26:30.620 I was read to a chapter and I,

03:26:32.000 I sort of stopped and I savored the moment and I read it again.

03:26:35.260 And,

03:26:35.700 and you know,

03:26:36.180 they're in,

03:26:36.600 they're in,

03:26:37.180 they go to the gymnasium and Aristocles is there and he's a wrestler.

03:26:41.980 And that's actually Plato's real name.

03:26:44.260 He's Aristocles.

03:26:45.100 Plato,

03:26:45.440 Plato means broad shoulders because he was a wrestler.

03:26:48.080 That was his nickname.

03:26:49.020 And I said to myself,

03:26:50.280 I just met Plato.

03:26:51.620 That's cool.

03:26:52.560 Dude,

03:26:53.060 the Delphi,

03:26:53.720 that was like your WWF,

03:26:55.220 huh?

03:26:55.900 Yeah.

03:26:57.300 Yeah.

03:26:57.900 It was,

03:26:59.200 I,

03:26:59.900 I,

03:27:00.320 I,

03:27:01.140 I used to be a big fan of like science fiction and occasionally there's,

03:27:05.260 some good science fiction,

03:27:06.100 but now,

03:27:08.020 um,

03:27:08.440 like maybe it's just cause I'm older.

03:27:10.280 Um,

03:27:10.600 I'm finding a history,

03:27:12.420 really good historical fiction to be,

03:27:14.280 uh,

03:27:14.900 a friend of mine,

03:27:15.960 one of my most important friends,

03:27:19.180 Christopher Masterpietro,

03:27:20.080 my coauthor on so much work.

03:27:22.060 Um,

03:27:22.540 he,

03:27:22.740 he's works for the Reveki foundation.

03:27:25.520 He's also a recommended mem,

03:27:27.340 uh,

03:27:27.600 Hey,

03:27:27.940 what is it?

03:27:28.620 Um,

03:27:28.900 Hadrian's memoirs,

03:27:30.060 I believe it's called.

03:27:30.700 I've got that book.

03:27:31.380 Uh,

03:27:32.180 it's about Hadrian writing to the young Marcus Aurelius,

03:27:34.840 trying to,

03:27:35.440 uh,

03:27:36.140 educate him and how to be a great stoic,

03:27:38.540 uh,

03:27:39.420 uh,

03:27:39.660 emperor.

03:27:40.660 Um,

03:27:40.860 and so I find that kind of literature when it's not hackneyed,

03:27:44.100 when it's really well researched and well written,

03:27:46.460 I find that very inspiring.

03:27:48.900 It helps me to ask,

03:27:50.160 uh,

03:27:50.300 aspire to be the kind of person I want to be.

03:27:53.680 And I find that,

03:27:54.820 um,

03:27:56.440 it,

03:27:56.760 it,

03:27:57.060 I find because it's inspiring and it's beautiful.

03:27:59.740 I find it very,

03:28:01.160 uh,

03:28:02.360 healing and restorative.

03:28:03.420 Hmm.

03:28:05.460 I was just reading,

03:28:06.960 um,

03:28:08.080 this book.

03:28:08.680 I think it's called the library.

03:28:09.980 You look it up by this guy,

03:28:10.980 Matt Haig,

03:28:11.760 H A I G.

03:28:13.180 And it's about this lady.

03:28:15.240 She thinks her life is like horrible.

03:28:17.100 Right.

03:28:17.540 So she wants to take her own life.

03:28:19.880 But the second she does,

03:28:22.040 she like wakes up in a library and every book on the shelf is,

03:28:26.760 um,

03:28:27.360 the midnight library.

03:28:28.260 That's what it's called.

03:28:29.360 And every book on the shelf is a different possibility of her life.

03:28:32.360 If she had made different choices and there's a billion books,

03:28:35.340 it's an endless library.

03:28:36.640 Of course.

03:28:37.020 So she can take one and open it and she'll be in that life.

03:28:40.360 And it's really interesting.

03:28:41.400 Cause it's like,

03:28:42.080 it's,

03:28:42.480 it's,

03:28:42.580 the author just kind of takes you on the journey where no,

03:28:46.420 every life you think,

03:28:48.020 Oh,

03:28:48.120 if I just stayed and done this thing,

03:28:49.740 but there's a million other things that are different about that life.

03:28:52.720 That's right.

03:28:53.160 That you didn't realize,

03:28:54.040 Oh,

03:28:54.120 when I get to this life,

03:28:55.140 like my father had passed away early or,

03:28:57.900 um,

03:28:58.980 my partner had left me or I was cheating on.

03:29:01.780 There's just,

03:29:02.580 uh,

03:29:02.800 it's just pretty fascinating to see all the different,

03:29:04.940 like the broader view,

03:29:06.480 instead of just being like very specific,

03:29:08.360 like,

03:29:08.660 Oh,

03:29:08.740 if this one thing changes,

03:29:10.600 I would be awesome.

03:29:11.600 But if that one thing changed and so many things would change that,

03:29:14.840 that's excellent.

03:29:15.440 I think I,

03:29:16.000 I think I would like to read that book.

03:29:17.420 It's really cool.

03:29:17.960 It's easy to read.

03:29:18.500 It blew my mind.

03:29:19.160 How just what a creative idea it was,

03:29:20.880 but it's a really good idea.

03:29:22.020 That's what good literature can do,

03:29:23.200 right?

03:29:23.540 Yeah.

03:29:24.100 It can,

03:29:24.360 it can,

03:29:24.700 it can persuade you like it without making an argument,

03:29:27.640 but nevertheless,

03:29:28.380 it,

03:29:28.660 it rationally persuade you to really consider and reflect on things.

03:29:32.460 Yeah.

03:29:32.580 It kind of made me excited.

03:29:33.640 It was like,

03:29:33.960 I hadn't read something that had like kind of a new idea or something that I'd

03:29:36.960 never thought ever heard seen before,

03:29:38.660 you know?

03:29:39.500 And I was like,

03:29:39.920 Oh,

03:29:40.120 this is exciting.

03:29:41.000 It felt promising,

03:29:41.900 you know,

03:29:42.180 new ideas that have both truth and relevance.

03:29:45.280 See,

03:29:45.500 like you said,

03:29:46.100 they're so nourishing,

03:29:47.340 right?

03:29:47.700 They feed your mind in a way that in for information,

03:29:50.960 you know,

03:29:51.620 it doesn't.

03:29:52.740 Yeah.

03:29:53.700 We're at a place now where everyone has access to the same information.

03:29:57.160 So the,

03:29:57.980 the value of information itself has kind of diminished unless you can iterate that

03:30:04.740 information or share that information to people concisely and effectively and in ways

03:30:12.120 that they can digest it.

03:30:13.420 I think that's one of the reasons why people are going to a lot of like orders and speakers

03:30:19.060 and stoics and different,

03:30:22.080 like just different,

03:30:24.980 I don't know what they'd be called,

03:30:26.920 but evangelists maybe,

03:30:29.020 but that's,

03:30:29.380 but non-Christian,

03:30:30.380 non,

03:30:30.580 non-religious evangelists,

03:30:32.820 you know,

03:30:33.160 because they,

03:30:34.180 they,

03:30:34.800 they need,

03:30:36.480 you know,

03:30:36.800 I don't know what I'm saying.

03:30:38.260 I don't know.

03:30:38.620 I think what you're saying is like people have a sense of the,

03:30:45.220 you know,

03:30:45.520 of something that will open them up in that way you were talking about.

03:30:50.220 Yeah.

03:30:50.280 And they see that possibility and they're hungry for it.

03:30:52.860 Yeah.

03:30:53.160 Yeah.

03:30:53.300 They're hungry for it.

03:30:53.860 And some of the old mediums of it have proven to be non-valuable.

03:30:58.660 Right.

03:30:59.160 Recently.

03:30:59.780 And so I think they're looking for new mediums of it.

03:31:02.120 So yeah.

03:31:02.520 TSLA said,

03:31:03.280 where's all the wisdom we've lost in knowledge?

03:31:05.440 Where's all the knowledge we've lost in the information?

03:31:08.140 And so,

03:31:09.020 yeah,

03:31:09.220 it's like that very much.

03:31:10.920 And,

03:31:11.100 and,

03:31:11.380 and good literature can take you back.

03:31:14.560 Like it take you from the information into the knowledge.

03:31:17.020 And if it's really great literature from the knowledge back into the wisdom.

03:31:20.240 John Verveke,

03:31:21.020 thanks so much,

03:31:21.800 man.

03:31:23.080 Thank you.

03:31:23.740 You know,

03:31:24.000 there's this,

03:31:24.560 I really enjoyed this.

03:31:26.100 I mean,

03:31:27.200 um,

03:31:28.280 you,

03:31:28.580 you,

03:31:29.020 you,

03:31:29.380 you drew a lot out for me and it was really wonderful.

03:31:33.300 You shared a lot,

03:31:34.380 which was really wonderful.

03:31:35.600 And I feel like one of my criteria of genuine dialogos is we both got to a

03:31:40.060 place we couldn't have got to on our own.

03:31:42.220 It wasn't just a dialogue.

03:31:43.160 We like,

03:31:43.860 there was something,

03:31:44.940 a life took shape between us and,

03:31:47.280 and grew for a while.

03:31:48.200 And we sort of followed it.

03:31:49.360 And I really,

03:31:50.240 the aesthetics and,

03:31:51.600 and the,

03:31:52.360 and the meaning of that,

03:31:53.620 I find that very,

03:31:54.960 very powerful.

03:31:55.840 Thanks,

03:31:56.200 man.

03:31:56.880 Yeah.

03:31:57.040 I think I was afraid.

03:31:57.980 Sometimes I get afraid to talk to you.

03:31:58.900 I talk to people that are,

03:31:59.720 or have a lot of education,

03:32:01.500 you know,

03:32:01.740 and,

03:32:02.020 and are good at sharing information.

03:32:04.120 So I felt,

03:32:05.500 you know,

03:32:06.020 I feel,

03:32:06.540 I guess,

03:32:06.780 pretty happy about myself that,

03:32:08.260 uh,

03:32:08.560 you know,

03:32:09.100 I planned ahead.

03:32:10.140 And so I had somewhat of a plan.

03:32:11.760 So that was nice.

03:32:13.040 Uh,

03:32:13.360 but I didn't feel like I had to like stick to it too much.

03:32:16.520 And I felt like I was able to like,

03:32:18.620 you know,

03:32:18.940 communicate and learn and ask questions that I think myself and my listeners are curious about,

03:32:23.960 you know,

03:32:24.340 and be,

03:32:25.100 um,

03:32:25.780 just like a voice for our little group of,

03:32:28.000 uh,

03:32:28.280 of listeners.

03:32:28.960 So yeah,

03:32:29.720 man,

03:32:29.900 thanks so much,

03:32:30.680 dude.

03:32:30.960 And,

03:32:31.640 um,

03:32:32.320 yeah,

03:32:32.640 I got to come check you out.

03:32:33.540 I don't want to come see a,

03:32:34.340 a,

03:32:34.540 a class or something when I get up there to Toronto.

03:32:37.400 You're welcome.

03:32:38.100 Let me know.

03:32:38.680 Yeah.

03:32:38.840 Can people come sit in there like they ride along with a cop?

03:32:41.180 Uh,

03:32:41.680 you,

03:32:42.560 there's a,

03:32:43.500 you can,

03:32:43.840 you can audit it because the universities are publicly funded in Canada.

03:32:47.360 Um,

03:32:48.060 you can audit any course you want as long as it does,

03:32:50.600 as long as you get permission of the instructor and it doesn't violate the fire code.

03:32:54.500 Sometimes I'm in a room and we,

03:32:56.460 there's,

03:32:57.020 it's seating for 35 and there's 35 people.

03:32:59.880 Oh yeah.

03:33:00.340 Oh,

03:33:00.800 and I won't wear nothing flammable either.

03:33:02.860 I won't wear,

03:33:03.820 you think I'm gonna wear wool or something.

03:33:05.360 I probably won't.

03:33:06.240 So,

03:33:06.440 but thank you for letting me know,

03:33:07.400 John Verbecki,

03:33:08.300 thank you so much for your time.

03:33:09.580 Thank you so much.

03:33:11.200 Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves.

03:33:16.920 I must be cornerstone.

03:33:22.240 Oh,

03:33:22.920 but when I reach that ground,

03:33:24.840 I'll share this peace of mind.

03:33:26.860 I found I can feel it in my bones,

03:33:31.120 but it's gonna tell you.

This Past Weekend with Theo Von - September 12, 2023

E462 John Vervaeke

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