This Past Weekend with Theo Von - E543 Dr. Ryan Martin

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00:02:17.160 Today's guest is an expert in the world of anger.

00:02:20.920 He's an author.

00:02:21.940 He's a researcher.

00:02:23.160 He's a dean at the College of Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay.

00:02:30.040 We covered a lot of ground, and he has some insightful thoughts.

00:02:34.920 Just talking about anger in general, and then just things that, spaces I've had trouble with anger in.

00:02:41.120 I'm very grateful today to have spent time with Dr. Ryan Martin.

00:02:45.040 I think the thing I thought was cool is just the variety of guests you've had on over the years.

00:03:06.360 I mean, it was impressive.

00:03:08.440 It's a cool group.

00:03:08.920 Thanks, man.

00:03:09.520 Yeah.

00:03:09.800 It was a cool group.

00:03:10.980 Yeah.

00:03:11.380 I mean, there's been some real smart people, some real perverts that have come on here, some real creeps.

00:03:17.300 We've had all kinds.

00:03:18.240 Yeah.

00:03:18.540 Well, good.

00:03:18.920 Well, I hope I fall in that first category.

00:03:21.040 I hope I'm not one of the perverts or the creeps.

00:03:22.820 Yeah.

00:03:23.620 TBD, brother.

00:03:24.460 We'll see where we end.

00:03:26.600 Dr. Ryan Martin is here from – you're a professor at University of Wisconsin-Green Bay.

00:03:31.780 Yep.

00:03:32.200 Yep.

00:03:32.660 That is right.

00:03:33.260 Yeah, and we wanted to talk with you today about anger because that's the world you work in, right?

00:03:38.320 Anger?

00:03:38.940 Yep.

00:03:39.440 Okay.

00:03:40.060 Exactly.

00:03:40.280 Yeah.

00:03:40.660 So I've been working at the university for the last 19 years.

00:03:45.240 I've been teaching psychology for 18 of those years.

00:03:48.020 I actually just started a year ago as the dean of arts, humanities, and social sciences.

00:03:54.060 But most of that time, I've been researching – and actually, even before that, I was researching anger and teaching and writing about anger.

00:04:02.020 And what made you get into it?

00:04:03.500 Did you have, like, some things when you were a child that got you really angry?

00:04:06.980 Yeah.

00:04:07.680 Some of it was that.

00:04:08.840 Some of it – you know, there's this long story about my family and what was called the Martin temper, right?

00:04:15.480 And it referred to mostly the men in my family who had – who were, like, quick to get mad.

00:04:21.300 Oh, yeah.

00:04:21.740 Starting with my dad but not ending with him, right?

00:04:25.640 Yeah.

00:04:25.780 And so both my brothers, me.

00:04:28.060 And, you know, so something I was just – it's interesting because I think people assume, you know, anger is, you know, that it was, like, hostile or uncomfortable or that we didn't love each other.

00:04:40.100 Like professional wrestling or something.

00:04:41.100 Yes, exactly.

00:04:41.940 But it wasn't that.

00:04:43.060 It was, like, it was a really loving home.

00:04:45.120 Like, I get along great with my siblings.

00:04:46.980 We've got really great relationships.

00:04:49.740 All of us have chilled out quite a bit since then.

00:04:54.500 But so it's just something I grew up with.

00:04:56.700 It was a theme.

00:04:57.480 Yeah.

00:04:57.700 And when I went to college, decided I was interested in studying it more and then went to grad school and started working with a professor who studied it.

00:05:07.500 His name is Dr. Eric Dolan and he was researching anger and it just became something I was really passionate about and really interested in.

00:05:14.660 So, yeah, it seems like it was kind of a family affair then, kind of, and so obviously that's – maybe that's just a sign out of the gate that it's something for you to, like, reflect on and learn about, you know?

00:05:28.040 So when people, like – because I get angry all the time.

00:05:30.480 I'm pretty angry a lot, even though maybe sometimes I don't seem like it.

00:05:33.220 But when people say anger, like, what do they mean?

00:05:35.620 Like, what – like, I know it's so basic, but, like, what is anger?

00:05:38.720 Yep.

00:05:39.240 Yeah, and so I think what you just said is really, really important.

00:05:41.700 Like, you know, you said I'm angry a lot of the time, but people don't realize it.

00:05:46.200 And I think that's because – something I think you realize that a lot of people don't is that anger is just the feeling.

00:05:52.320 It's just the emotion.

00:05:53.860 We can express that emotion in a gajillion different ways.

00:05:58.400 And some people express that anger by yelling and screaming.

00:06:02.420 Some people express that anger by suppressing it.

00:06:04.740 Some people, like me, they just do a relatively good job of controlling it, of using it to problem solve and so on.

00:06:12.100 To answer your question, what is it?

00:06:13.620 It's the emotional desire to lash out, and it's associated with having been wronged, having been treated unfairly, or having had your goals blocked.

00:06:26.260 Like, I want to do something, and something's interfering with me trying to get that thing done, right?

00:06:33.040 So it's why road rage is so common.

00:06:34.940 It's because, by definition, you're on your way somewhere, stuff's getting in your way, and you start to get mad about it.

00:06:40.200 Yeah.

00:06:41.500 What are your triggers?

00:06:42.600 Like, when you say you get angry all the time, what are some of the things that – if I can ask?

00:06:46.000 Yeah, no, thanks for asking, Ryan.

00:06:48.520 For me, I've been noticing recently a lot of it is unrealistic expectations.

00:06:52.360 So I have a lot of just generally unrealistic expectations that people should know how to do things the way I would like them to be done.

00:06:59.820 Got it.

00:07:00.220 So that, out of the gate, has been a big one for me.

00:07:04.240 Would you describe yourself as, like, kind of type A?

00:07:08.240 Do you know what that means, like type A personality?

00:07:10.080 Like blood or whatever?

00:07:11.100 No, no, no.

00:07:12.020 Like it's a personality type of being competitive, really aggressive.

00:07:17.400 A lot of successful people are type A.

00:07:19.180 I'm type A, right?

00:07:19.980 And even – it's like I'm really competitive, I'm really aggressive, I'm really –

00:07:26.300 Type A, let me see it right here.

00:07:27.280 We have it.

00:07:27.880 Our personality is defined by traits like ambition, drive, and competitiveness, which can lead to a high level of success.

00:07:33.240 But type A personalities can also be impatient, hostile, and even have trouble relaxing.

00:07:38.460 Yeah, I wouldn't go to hostile.

00:07:40.140 I don't get there.

00:07:40.820 But I can get, like, yeah, very impatient, have trouble relaxing.

00:07:46.400 Dude, I'll notice I will be urinating, right?

00:07:49.340 And in the middle of urinating, I will flush the toilet just because I don't want to – I want to get it off my checklist.

00:07:58.100 Yeah, yeah.

00:07:58.480 It's like it's already done.

00:08:00.020 You got a to-do list, right?

00:08:01.280 Yeah.

00:08:01.620 Right.

00:08:01.880 So it's still weird because I'll then still urinate into the toilet.

00:08:04.880 Yeah.

00:08:05.040 But it's like I've already – it's like –

00:08:06.760 Yeah.

00:08:07.000 But so impatience, yeah, is definitely a big one for me.

00:08:09.720 You got to learn to time that just right so that it's like just as you're finishing, it's going down.

00:08:14.440 Yeah.

00:08:14.580 Yeah.

00:08:14.880 I'm sure that's how I started.

00:08:16.240 But then after a while, it was like, well, why do I – you know?

00:08:18.760 But I noticed that about myself.

00:08:20.420 Like, that's a real thing that I noticed that's like – that for me was like, wow, I have a lot of impatience, you know?

00:08:25.220 Yeah.

00:08:25.740 The reason I ask is because what you said about, like, setting unrealistic expectations is that's really common for people who are kind of type A, right, who have these high – this competitive trait is that they think,

00:08:36.980 hey, the people should – I want to accomplish a lot.

00:08:41.920 And me accomplishing a lot relies on other people to get their stuff done and taken care of.

00:08:48.860 And if they don't, if they let me down, that slows me down and I don't like it, right?

00:08:53.280 And so it's – this is something I actually deal with relatively often too.

00:08:58.440 I get an idea in my head that idea is reliant on other people doing their job in a particular way.

00:09:04.300 And I think to myself, they should be able to get that done by whatever day.

00:09:09.280 Right.

00:09:09.740 And then they don't, you know?

00:09:11.060 And in fairness to them, it's because they've got other stuff they're doing, right?

00:09:14.860 I mean –

00:09:15.040 Yeah, totally.

00:09:15.820 Yeah.

00:09:16.060 It makes sense that they don't or that things don't go a certain way.

00:09:19.040 It's just like in certain moments, it's tough for me, you know – it's tough for me to notice that.

00:09:24.800 It's like that's not what I'm thinking.

00:09:26.460 Right.

00:09:26.780 But that for sure is a big trigger for me, I notice, is unrealistic expectations.

00:09:31.280 Yeah.

00:09:32.080 So – and I'm sure I'm not the only person that deals with this type of thing.

00:09:36.180 Yeah.

00:09:36.460 So why do people get mad like or get angry in any given moment kind of like is it – is there a real science behind it?

00:09:44.620 Yep.

00:09:44.920 And this is the stuff I study.

00:09:46.300 So –

00:09:46.480 Okay.

00:09:46.740 So why people get angry in a particular moment is usually a confluence of like three things, right?

00:09:53.760 So there's a trigger.

00:09:55.220 There's the thing that happened, right?

00:09:56.740 And I tend to – I encourage people to be really specific about what that thing is, right?

00:10:00.760 So driving down the street, yellow light in front of you, you think you can make it, car in front of you stops though, right?

00:10:08.080 So now you've got to stop.

00:10:09.420 So that's the trigger, right?

00:10:11.460 Then there is your mood at the time of that trigger.

00:10:14.380 So are you stressed?

00:10:15.660 Are you fatigued?

00:10:16.820 Are you already angry about something?

00:10:20.360 Are you anxious?

00:10:21.060 Whatever.

00:10:21.960 Are you too warm or too cold, physically uncomfortable, hungry?

00:10:25.140 All those things make it more likely that you're going to respond with anger in that moment.

00:10:31.440 And then there's how you interpret that behavior.

00:10:35.920 And this is where those expectations come in, right?

00:10:38.320 So do I interpret this person as – do I look at this and say, oh, this is going to ruin my day.

00:10:44.820 Now I'm going to be late to work.

00:10:46.320 I'm not going to get done what I need to get done.

00:10:48.720 Do you interpret it as, oh, that idiot.

00:10:51.180 Why did they slow down, right?

00:10:52.380 And so do you label them in that sort of negative way?

00:10:55.140 You totally could have made that, man.

00:10:57.700 Or do you interpret it as, hey, it's going to slow me down in two minutes.

00:11:02.860 I'll still get to work.

00:11:03.900 Everything is going to be okay, right?

00:11:05.100 That third one sounds like the healthiest one.

00:11:06.940 Yep.

00:11:07.460 But I'll even go – sometimes I'm like, this bastard left his house just to fucking strand me here.

00:11:13.400 Yep.

00:11:13.820 He's just here to ruin my life.

00:11:15.300 Yeah.

00:11:16.260 Sometimes a part of my brain will even go there.

00:11:20.740 We have these thoughts.

00:11:22.140 There's like – there are a couple specific types of thoughts that we have when we're faced with that kind of provocation.

00:11:27.880 Okay.

00:11:28.200 And one of them is what you just described.

00:11:30.160 It's this inflammatory labeling, right?

00:11:32.500 So I label this guy as a bastard, as an asshole, as a loser, whatever, right?

00:11:37.900 Another one is that demandingness that we talked about.

00:11:41.880 It's like, you know, God, why can't they just do the job the way they're supposed to?

00:11:46.020 Whatever.

00:11:47.480 You know, what we call like making these dictatorial demands.

00:11:51.300 Like things need to be done the way I want them when I want them.

00:11:54.480 There's what we call overgeneralizing.

00:11:57.580 So it's – I don't know if you ever say like, God, this always happens to me.

00:12:01.500 You know, where you label things in that sort of super exaggerated way.

00:12:07.620 There's catastrophizing, which is when you blow things out of proportion.

00:12:11.820 You say, this is going to ruin my day, my week, my month, my year, right?

00:12:16.060 This is the – my career is over now, right?

00:12:18.340 This ruins everything.

00:12:19.380 Christmas is done.

00:12:20.640 Yep.

00:12:21.080 Exactly.

00:12:21.620 Right.

00:12:21.800 Yep.

00:12:23.180 And then there's – the last one is what we call misattributing causation.

00:12:27.840 But it's where you just blame the wrong people for things.

00:12:30.340 You know, you say – or you decide they did it on purpose, right?

00:12:33.360 What you were saying before about like, this guy is just doing this to fuck with me, right?

00:12:37.260 That's – you're making assumptions about – no, I know you're not really making those assumptions,

00:12:41.980 but you're making assumptions about why they did a thing.

00:12:44.260 Right.

00:12:44.640 Yeah.

00:12:45.920 And blowing it out.

00:12:47.100 So, all those things come together into like this recipe for why you get mad in a particular moment.

00:12:53.920 And then even separate from that is what we do when we're mad, right?

00:12:59.640 And so, for me, every now and then I'll like just have a moment where I'll like yell not at someone,

00:13:06.660 but just sort of at the heavens.

00:13:07.820 And I might, you know, sometimes pound my fist on the table or something like that when I'm really mad.

00:13:12.920 A lot of times, though, I like – I'll sort of simmer inside a little bit.

00:13:17.320 I'll get frustrated.

00:13:18.360 I'll sort of take a – we do this thing in my office.

00:13:21.080 We've done it for a long time where when we're feeling frustrated, we'll say, okay, let's start with an unproductive response,

00:13:28.220 meaning let's just take a minute to vent for a second about how we hate this, right?

00:13:32.700 We'll take like two minutes and then we'll stop and we'll say, okay, now let's problem solve.

00:13:36.880 What do we need to do, right?

00:13:38.180 How do we work through this?

00:13:39.680 Right.

00:13:39.900 Let some of the pressure off.

00:13:40.960 Yep.

00:13:41.440 Yeah, exactly.

00:13:43.260 When it comes to anger, are there different types?

00:13:47.600 So, like we kind of have looked at like a situation that – and triggers of – and then you end up angry.

00:13:54.920 Right.

00:13:55.320 Right.

00:13:55.520 Are there different types of anger?

00:13:57.140 Like are there –

00:13:59.260 Yeah, I mean I think anger can come from a lot of different places and people can tend to express it in lots of different ways.

00:14:06.620 I tend to think of anger as existing on like a continuum, meaning on one end you've got mild frustration like, hey, I'm leaving the house.

00:14:16.380 Can't find my keys, right?

00:14:17.980 Right.

00:14:18.220 It's irritating.

00:14:19.340 I misplaced something.

00:14:21.000 It's a bummer.

00:14:21.720 Yeah, my shoes don't fit that good.

00:14:23.260 Right.

00:14:23.660 Stuff like that.

00:14:24.280 And then there's more intense frustration that comes from like, hey, now I'm really starting to run late.

00:14:31.280 This dude that got in my way on the road or whatever, right?

00:14:34.720 More intense all the way up to like extreme anger of I – you know, when you see a politician do something that you just hate or when –

00:14:47.280 when, you know, your spouse treats you badly or when your parents treat you badly or whatever, a friend takes advantage of you.

00:14:53.020 Like the real extreme, cruel, terrible things, right?

00:14:56.800 And it exists.

00:14:57.740 And so it's everything from like mild frustration to just being livid with rage, that whole spectrum.

00:15:04.240 So there's just kind of a spectrum of anger.

00:15:05.700 It's like there's small amounts.

00:15:06.840 There's larger.

00:15:07.700 There's things that are really intense.

00:15:09.240 I guess in my next thought, like – because anger gives me a sense – sometimes it's like an illusionary sense that I have some control over what's going on.

00:15:21.660 Yeah.

00:15:22.060 But at the same time, I feel out of control.

00:15:26.400 Right.

00:15:27.500 Because anger sometimes makes me want to take an action.

00:15:29.960 So that makes me feel like I'm in control.

00:15:32.000 Yeah.

00:15:32.160 But then, like, I'll get so, like, just sometimes just blinded by being angry that it's like I know I'm out of control, you know?

00:15:39.120 Yeah.

00:15:39.620 This is one of the things that – so I don't know if you've ever had this experience, but have you ever been so angry that you started to cry?

00:15:45.520 Is that something you can think of?

00:15:48.420 Yeah.

00:15:48.800 Not as an adult, but as a child.

00:15:50.280 Yeah.

00:15:50.640 Okay.

00:15:51.080 Interesting.

00:15:51.740 I've been sad that I've cried, but not anger that I've cried.

00:15:55.220 So there are some people – and I discovered this on social media.

00:15:58.280 Like, there are a lot of people who sometimes when they get really angry, they'll start to cry.

00:16:04.100 Like, that's their sort of go-to expression.

00:16:05.860 And the interesting thing is the people I've talked to hate this about themselves.

00:16:10.040 They will tell me, I can't stand it.

00:16:13.240 It drives me crazy because I'm really mad.

00:16:15.460 And instead of, like, I just start – I start to cry.

00:16:18.780 And I think a big part of what's going on there is a pretty intense feeling of helplessness.

00:16:26.100 It's like, not only am I being treated badly, not only am I being treated unfairly and having my goals blocked, but there's nothing I can do about it.

00:16:34.820 I'm just stuck.

00:16:35.980 Yeah.

00:16:36.380 And that hurts, you know?

00:16:38.140 And it doesn't feel good.

00:16:40.040 It feels scary.

00:16:41.180 And so I think for a lot of people, that hopelessness and helplessness lands them in a place where they just start to tear up.

00:16:51.640 Like, it sort of dovetails with sadness in this very real way.

00:16:56.360 Whereas for people like me, when I'm feeling particularly sort of helpless or hopeless and angry, I tend to focus on, okay, so where are the places where I can make a difference?

00:17:09.220 Where are the places where I can take a little bit of power back, right, and try and solve this problem?

00:17:14.200 Can I solve the whole big problem?

00:17:15.840 Maybe not.

00:17:16.940 But maybe I can make a dent, you know, and do what I can do.

00:17:20.820 And then – and that at least gives me some power to, like, let things go.

00:17:25.140 Yeah, because that's the biggest thing is that anger feels like it has to be let go.

00:17:30.460 That's the thing about anger.

00:17:31.580 Like, other feelings – like, you know, anger, it feels like you have to, you know – like, happy.

00:17:37.220 I've never been so happy I then, like, went and dressed up like a clown and ran out into the street, you know?

00:17:42.360 Yeah.

00:17:42.820 But I've been so angry that I will damn – I will kick a clown if it comes near me, you know?

00:17:47.900 Like, so, you know, I've – but, you know, there's – anger is the one that feels like it has to get out of your body.

00:17:55.640 Yeah.

00:17:55.920 You know, it's got that gremlin and it just literally feels like it needs to leave you somehow.

00:18:01.160 Well, it's because it – that's a really interesting thought.

00:18:04.420 And I think it's because – I think you're right.

00:18:06.700 Anger tends to linger in ways that other emotions don't necessarily linger.

00:18:12.840 Yeah, dude.

00:18:13.360 And loiters.

00:18:14.260 Yeah.

00:18:14.740 And it's interesting because joy or happiness or excitement, like, that tends to dissipate relatively quickly.

00:18:21.500 More quickly than I think people realize, right?

00:18:23.640 Those feelings don't last.

00:18:25.100 Yeah.

00:18:25.920 Oh, the half-life on joy, it's not very long probably.

00:18:29.700 But anger, you can still – like, you'll go get in your car, you'll drive somewhere, you'll start chewing the bottom of your – like, I didn't even know.

00:18:36.060 Somehow I started chewing on my own teeth one time.

00:18:38.820 I was like, what is even – you know, sometimes you can get so angry that you turn into a chew toy for yourself almost.

00:18:44.700 Yeah.

00:18:45.140 You know, like, I've just gotten so agitated.

00:18:48.840 Yeah, what happens to anger if we don't process it?

00:18:51.500 And then how can you process it?

00:18:53.340 Like, what's a legitimate way to process it that's realistic?

00:18:58.620 Yeah.

00:18:58.760 Well, can we start with some of the illegitimate ways?

00:19:00.800 Okay, yeah.

00:19:01.180 Yeah.

00:19:01.880 And I say that because –

00:19:02.680 No, that's good.

00:19:03.240 Because it connects to something you just said, which is, you know, wanting – because people want it out of their body, right?

00:19:10.760 And it feels like – and so we've been – literally for thousands of years, people have been talking about catharsis as a way of ridding our body of anger and thinking of ourselves almost like pressure cookers.

00:19:24.720 Like, if we don't open up the valve and release this anger, we'll blow up, right?

00:19:29.140 Yeah.

00:19:29.460 And so that's where a lot of these approaches, like if you've ever heard of a rage room or, like, you know, people punching a punching bag or hitting the gym or things like that.

00:19:39.220 That's where those approaches come from is this idea that we got to let that out.

00:19:42.960 And now here's the thing, and people are going to throw rocks when I say this, but all of the research that we have on catharsis tells us it doesn't work.

00:19:53.600 Like rage, actions of getting it out physically?

00:19:55.840 Yeah, that it doesn't work.

00:19:57.260 It doesn't – it feels good at the time.

00:19:59.140 And so people think, well, because it feels good, it must be good for me.

00:20:03.200 It must help.

00:20:04.560 But what we find is two things.

00:20:06.700 First, over time, the people who use that as their mechanism stay angry and get angrier over time.

00:20:15.180 We also find that, like, right after – like, moments after – they did this study.

00:20:20.380 I mean, this is, like, 50 years old, right?

00:20:21.920 So we've known for a long time.

00:20:23.180 They did this study where they provoked people in the lab.

00:20:26.960 Then they took half of them and they put them on a bicycle and said, just ride the bike as fast as you can, right?

00:20:33.420 Exercise.

00:20:33.720 The other half had to do this really ridiculous task where they were, like, threading coins with a needle or something like that, something boring and tedious.

00:20:42.660 And then afterwards, they assessed to see how angry and aggressive they were.

00:20:47.880 And the people who worked it out on the bike were way more aggressive than the people who, you know, did the other task.

00:20:54.880 Because that exercise, it doesn't do it.

00:20:58.320 It keeps the angry thoughts at the surface.

00:21:02.180 It keeps the intensity going, keeps your blood pressure going.

00:21:06.720 What you need to do when you're angry is to actually find ways to calm down and relax.

00:21:11.460 Right.

00:21:11.580 You need to take deep breaths, stuff like that.

00:21:14.720 Rage rooms don't do that.

00:21:16.740 Hitting a punching bag doesn't do that.

00:21:18.540 Wow.

00:21:18.980 And I guess you feel like it does because, again, anger is that – it's that – I mean, it almost makes you act.

00:21:26.760 It's like, you know, people do things in a fit of anger, in a fit of rage.

00:21:31.300 It's like – it's like this energy that's – it's almost like it's always leaving a diving board, you know?

00:21:37.400 Right, right.

00:21:37.560 So to get that to that even – it almost feels like inertia or whatever.

00:21:41.140 So to get it to stop, I think, is, you know, sometimes it's kind of harrowing, I feel like.

00:21:46.460 Right.

00:21:47.640 There we go.

00:21:48.020 Rage rooms invite people to engage with their anger, but do they actually work?

00:21:51.120 Yeah.

00:21:51.400 This is a study that came out.

00:21:52.960 I can't see who wrote it.

00:21:54.080 Marcus Biddle.

00:21:54.800 I don't know Marcus.

00:21:56.400 Rage rooms.

00:21:57.840 Yeah.

00:21:58.300 They just had one for women that they opened up.

00:22:01.120 I saw this.

00:22:02.220 Did you?

00:22:02.640 Yeah.

00:22:03.300 You bring that up?

00:22:04.500 Rage rooms for women?

00:22:05.800 Yeah.

00:22:06.420 I think – is it a rage room or do they take them out into the woods?

00:22:09.380 If they're taking them into the woods, I'm not getting involved with it.

00:22:12.700 That's a good –

00:22:13.460 That's a good –

00:22:14.160 That's a good –

00:22:14.980 I'll let – look, I'll let as many ladies as they want just go ham inside of a bed, bath, and body works or whatever with a shovel.

00:22:22.080 Yeah.

00:22:22.260 I'll join them.

00:22:23.180 But if we – I don't think we need to like bring anybody into the woods.

00:22:27.580 Yeah, that's probably not great.

00:22:29.940 Can you see what's going on here?

00:22:31.680 I just want to –

00:22:32.860 I think it was like a New York Times article or something.

00:22:35.400 This was an article about rage, women rage, getting it out.

00:22:39.260 Yep.

00:22:39.880 Well, because sometimes my rage, it will almost – feels like it blinds me.

00:22:43.280 Right.

00:22:43.520 You know, it's like – it is so overcoming because if you don't – so if somebody doesn't process –

00:22:52.740 I mean I think like probably – truly the worst thing people can do is that cathartic expression.

00:22:58.280 It's like breaking stuff, exercising.

00:23:00.000 Those are probably the bad ways.

00:23:01.800 Right.

00:23:02.160 And I guess there's a – it just feels like that because physically you're doing something.

00:23:06.740 Yep.

00:23:06.880 Like, yeah, obviously I'm taking an action.

00:23:09.080 Yep.

00:23:09.360 There's an actual physical action.

00:23:10.840 Then it feels like, oh, that should be helpful.

00:23:12.480 And it is what your body wants to do, right?

00:23:15.060 Because, I mean, if we define anger as the emotional desire to lash out, well, then your body wants to lash out.

00:23:21.920 And so if you give it that, you know, it's going to feel good.

00:23:25.100 That doesn't – again, that doesn't make it good for you.

00:23:27.820 Right.

00:23:27.960 We could talk about this with other – I mean, you know, I guess some other like bad ways to deal with your anger, but these are obvious to people is like doing drugs, right?

00:23:37.180 Overeating, you know, just calling a friend and screaming at them.

00:23:40.800 Like those things are bad for you.

00:23:43.660 They're mean.

00:23:45.200 Do they make you feel better?

00:23:47.540 Sometimes in the moment they do for people, right?

00:23:49.800 But that doesn't make it good for them.

00:23:51.680 But as soon as I think it feels like doing one of those things is healthier than doing something physically dangerous.

00:23:59.800 Yes.

00:24:00.360 Yep.

00:24:00.740 I think so.

00:24:01.520 You know, I think you're right.

00:24:03.280 Although, I mean, long term those things can be physically dangerous too for sure.

00:24:06.880 100%.

00:24:07.020 But, yeah.

00:24:08.760 Right.

00:24:09.100 Yeah.

00:24:09.220 In the moment.

00:24:09.880 Yep.

00:24:10.280 Yeah.

00:24:10.780 Yeah.

00:24:11.380 Yeah.

00:24:11.540 And that's the worry actually is that – so what we find is that people who use – like if their approach to dealing with anger is,

00:24:21.080 I'm going to go punch this pillow, you know, or I'm going to go punch this punching bag or I'm going to tear phone books in half or whatever.

00:24:29.660 Yeah.

00:24:30.560 What we find is that becomes – it's like, you know, I used to have a soccer coach who would say practice makes permanent, right?

00:24:37.220 And it's like the way you practice something is how you'll do things in life.

00:24:41.360 And if you practice your anger that way, well, then someday when you're mad, you're not going to control yourself and you're going to hit someone.

00:24:48.720 You're going to, you know, you're going to punch someone.

00:24:50.560 You're going to go after them.

00:24:51.840 And so it ends up having those kinds of long-term harmful consequences.

00:24:57.520 Damn, dude.

00:24:59.440 God, I just –

00:25:00.460 People don't like to hear this, by the way.

00:25:01.920 When I talk about this on – and just a couple weeks ago, I talked about this on Instagram.

00:25:07.960 And, wow, I mean, new research comes out, 150-plus studies.

00:25:12.920 It's an article by a guy named Dr. Brad Bushman who's a huge monster anger researcher and aggression researcher in the field.

00:25:20.440 And he does this study and he looks at 154 studies over time approximately and finds that across all these studies, what does work is when you find ways to relax, to decrease arousal in the moment, right?

00:25:35.520 Grounding, deep breaths, all that stuff.

00:25:38.420 What doesn't work is when you raise arousal, right?

00:25:45.480 Right.

00:25:45.740 You break stuff.

00:25:46.840 Of course, I share this on Instagram.

00:25:49.400 Nobody wants to hear that.

00:25:50.060 Nobody wants to hear that.

00:25:50.840 Yeah.

00:25:51.360 Well, I think arouse is a great term, too, to use because that's what's going on.

00:25:55.800 Right.

00:25:56.100 You are at a heightened state of arousal.

00:25:58.400 Right.

00:25:58.800 And it feels like dangerous arousal.

00:26:01.260 Right.

00:26:01.500 But even then, I could see maybe if you're going to work out or get it out, that way you're keeping the arousal at a high level.

00:26:06.400 Right.

00:26:06.660 Because you're keeping like at least something inside of you aroused.

00:26:11.620 Every now and then, someone reaches out to me and asks if I'll –

00:26:14.920 Open a rage room?

00:26:16.160 No, if I'll support theirs.

00:26:17.520 Like if I'll go and like do promote their rage room and I have to tell them, no.

00:26:22.840 Like you obviously haven't paid attention to what I have to say.

00:26:27.460 These places took abandoned warehouses and vacant offices and turned them into businesses made for organized chaos.

00:26:32.720 Some are also marketed as an alternative to anger management.

00:26:35.500 Yeah.

00:26:36.680 The one in my town has – makes itself available for gender reveals.

00:26:41.520 Oh, really?

00:26:42.120 I don't know what that looks like.

00:26:43.740 I could see that maybe.

00:26:45.400 I'm trying to think if you beat a cushion hard enough, like a couple twins pop out of it or something.

00:26:52.160 I don't know.

00:26:53.300 That's wild.

00:26:53.640 Because they fill up a printer with either blue or pink toner.

00:26:57.320 Oh, there you go.

00:26:58.400 You trash it until it spills all over.

00:27:01.980 Yeah.

00:27:02.420 I don't know if that would be – I wonder if – the rage room, a lot of them I've seen – well, a lot of rooms –

00:27:06.980 I noticed this happened too.

00:27:08.360 There was a business like de-evolution where a lot of escape rooms went under.

00:27:17.940 Okay.

00:27:18.420 And then they turned into rage rooms.

00:27:19.920 Oh, interesting.

00:27:20.680 And then they just went out of business completely and just turned into one-bedroom apartments that have like a trap door in them or whatever.

00:27:26.320 Dude, I remember – there used to be a place in L.A., downtown, they'd have a couple – it was like a Vietnamese establishment, and you would put on like a dog bite suit, and these guys would literally beat the smack out of you for like 80 bucks for 15 or 20 minutes.

00:27:40.480 Wow.

00:27:41.180 My brother and I used to play that game when we were kids, actually.

00:27:43.600 Yeah, we would – we really would.

00:27:46.200 We would – we'd play this game where we would pile up a bunch of – like we had – we were a sports family, right?

00:27:50.160 So we had like all sorts of gear.

00:27:51.940 We'd pile all this gear in the middle of the room, and we'd draft items.

00:27:55.040 Like we'd each take a thing, and then you'd put it on, and then we had these big plastic tinker toys, and we just beat the crap out of each other.

00:28:01.080 Oh, I love that.

00:28:01.420 Yeah.

00:28:01.920 So it was great.

00:28:02.800 Yeah.

00:28:03.340 He's a lot older than me, though, so I usually lost.

00:28:05.540 Well, it sounds like he was – it seems very unfair that he would do that thing.

00:28:09.240 If he was a lot older.

00:28:10.040 Or like how old, like 12 years older?

00:28:11.260 Just five.

00:28:12.080 Oh, that's kind of fair.

00:28:13.300 Even that's getting a little outside of the range of able to beat my brother age.

00:28:17.400 Yeah.

00:28:17.940 Agreed.

00:28:18.380 You should tell him that.

00:28:19.480 We'll let him know.

00:28:20.700 Yeah.

00:28:21.140 Yeah.

00:28:21.500 Here's one right here, the Rage Room.

00:28:23.340 There we go.

00:28:24.320 Oh, somebody hit a –

00:28:27.480 Oh.

00:28:29.360 Maybe they did hit an ink toner.

00:28:31.260 Yeah.

00:28:31.640 A toner cartridge.

00:28:32.440 Oh, there's something that had a dangerous gas in it.

00:28:34.640 They said nerve gas.

00:28:35.800 Jeez.

00:28:36.260 Yep.

00:28:36.620 That's what you do, look.

00:28:37.760 You've got to be careful.

00:28:38.520 Yeah, you've got to be careful.

00:28:40.600 Yeah, Rage.

00:28:41.220 I guess it's – I don't know if I've ever even been to one.

00:28:44.720 I don't know if it was something that really excited me.

00:28:47.820 So what would be healthy ways to process anger?

00:28:50.160 I mean, some of them seem kind of obvious.

00:28:52.340 Yep.

00:28:52.660 They don't seem that much fun.

00:28:54.080 Right.

00:28:54.300 Yeah, no, it's true.

00:28:56.320 You know, I think there's two ways of thinking about this.

00:28:58.560 Like, the first way is to think about, okay, when I am angry, what do I do to deal with that anger?

00:29:04.720 Right?

00:29:04.900 And that's where that study I was just telling you about, 154 articles that essentially find – you've got to find ways to deescalate, right?

00:29:12.620 So what are those different mechanisms?

00:29:16.000 And there are different ones for different people.

00:29:17.840 But it's the deep breathing.

00:29:20.080 It's mindful walking.

00:29:21.860 It is – you go for a walk and you just think about your thoughts and try and relax.

00:29:27.980 You think about nature.

00:29:28.920 You think about whatever's going on.

00:29:30.180 Cool study just came out, by the way, that found that college students who go for walks versus college students who go for walks and birdwatch,

00:29:39.380 that the birdwatching is actually better for their mental health than just going for walks.

00:29:44.600 Really?

00:29:45.760 It's kind of peeping Tom and on nature, I feel like.

00:29:48.800 That's true.

00:29:49.820 Yeah, no, you're right.

00:29:50.640 It's voyeuristic.

00:29:52.000 It's like, look, this bird's just trying to live its life.

00:29:53.800 I know.

00:29:54.180 Here I am.

00:29:55.060 Yeah.

00:29:55.640 Look at this bird just feeding his children.

00:29:57.340 You're sitting there just googing in the windows.

00:30:00.500 It's kind of crazy.

00:30:01.700 Yeah.

00:30:02.180 Get out of that bird's business.

00:30:03.520 Yeah.

00:30:04.040 But I think what's happening is that it forces people to get out of their head, right?

00:30:10.500 Right.

00:30:11.260 And so it doesn't have to be birds if you want to look at something else.

00:30:14.120 Right.

00:30:14.300 If you feel more comfortable leaving those birds be, you can look at – you can just be like, I'm going to identify leaves.

00:30:19.540 Okay.

00:30:19.760 Yeah, yeah.

00:30:20.300 Like, yeah, I'm just going to absorb something out here.

00:30:23.080 Yeah.

00:30:23.540 Right.

00:30:23.760 And it's because then you're – it gets you out of your head to look at the thing and focus on the thing.

00:30:28.600 And so like those kinds of de-escalation approaches are some of the best things to do.

00:30:33.940 The truth is, though, there's like infinite things you can do with your anger.

00:30:37.720 And so sometimes, you know, you can channel it into problem solving.

00:30:42.120 You can say – because ultimately what anger gives you is energy, right?

00:30:45.680 I mean it gives you energy to confront the injustice.

00:30:50.380 And so, you know, if you experience something that is truly unfair and you want to do something about it, well, there's lots of things you can do, right?

00:31:00.180 You can protest.

00:31:01.360 You can write letters to the editor.

00:31:02.560 You can donate money.

00:31:03.560 You can, you know, join all these causes to try and solve those problems.

00:31:07.720 Yeah.

00:31:07.980 That's a really good, healthy way to deal with your anger.

00:31:11.520 Yeah.

00:31:11.660 You can hire one of those planes to write something in the sky.

00:31:14.040 Exactly.

00:31:14.940 Yeah.

00:31:15.480 Exactly.

00:31:16.080 Stop smoking.

00:31:17.000 Love mom, it says on it.

00:31:18.400 Yeah.

00:31:18.900 Nice.

00:31:19.680 I know.

00:31:20.100 My mom wanted me to stop.

00:31:21.400 Is that how she got you to stop?

00:31:22.840 She rented a plane?

00:31:23.840 Nice.

00:31:24.380 She did one year.

00:31:25.640 Pretty sweet of her kind of crazy.

00:31:27.560 That's really kind.

00:31:28.540 Yeah.

00:31:28.980 But yeah, so you can put your anger into something.

00:31:31.160 Yep.

00:31:31.820 Is that legit?

00:31:32.900 Is that a real thing you can do?

00:31:34.400 Like put that in?

00:31:35.000 Well, I guess you already are activated.

00:31:37.380 Mm-hmm.

00:31:38.160 Yeah.

00:31:38.480 You know, this is the example I use.

00:31:40.920 I came home, so when my kids were young, you know, when your kids are young, like the

00:31:46.060 only thing in the world you want is a little bit of time to yourself, right, at the house.

00:31:49.800 And so I came home from work one day, and I think I knew in my head I had like 20 minutes

00:31:54.840 before everybody else got home that I was just alone, right?

00:31:57.960 And I thought, I'm going to live my best life for 20 minutes, you know?

00:32:01.460 And then I checked the mail, and there was like a flyer in there.

00:32:05.580 Oh, damn, that's your best life.

00:32:07.220 I feel you, dude.

00:32:08.680 Guys have the worst best lives.

00:32:10.280 It's just like, I'm going to live it off, dude.

00:32:12.620 And I'll just eat like a, I'll just like find an old can of peaches or something and

00:32:16.100 open them and just try one.

00:32:17.600 Just like a pudding cup.

00:32:18.980 And like, here we go.

00:32:20.420 And then your wife comes in and you're like, oh, she's like, this is so sad.

00:32:23.560 Yeah.

00:32:23.720 This is, for 20 minutes I had this pudding cup.

00:32:26.500 Yeah, but I'm going to check this mail while everybody's just letting me be.

00:32:30.600 I feel you, bro.

00:32:31.620 Exactly.

00:32:32.020 So I checked the mail, and there was like a flyer in there for some political candidate

00:32:38.460 who was just saying like nasty stuff about this.

00:32:41.600 I got so mad.

00:32:43.180 So I spent that 20 minutes.

00:32:45.400 I sent an email to the guy I didn't like saying that was BS.

00:32:49.120 What's wrong with you?

00:32:49.800 I sent another email to the guy I did like and said like, hey, thanks.

00:32:53.500 And then I donated money to the guy I was supporting.

00:32:57.400 And so by the time I was done, family's home, you know.

00:33:00.100 Right.

00:33:00.720 And, but like, that's what, like, I was exhausted when I came home, but anger gave me the energy

00:33:06.960 to do something.

00:33:08.180 Like, now did I solve all the world's problems?

00:33:10.040 No.

00:33:10.300 But, but like I did something and it felt better afterwards to do that.

00:33:14.440 Right.

00:33:14.640 And something that's more productive than just like, yeah, yeah, just like getting some spray

00:33:18.760 paint and just tagging up a, yeah, writing profanity on a wall or doing, I'm trying to think

00:33:24.140 of, or anything, anything that could be negative.

00:33:26.160 Right.

00:33:26.520 So yeah, because it was the mail that made you negative.

00:33:28.380 So then you're like, what am I going to do with it now?

00:33:30.900 Um, but those are, those are like safe ways.

00:33:33.600 Nobody's going to get hurt.

00:33:34.500 Right.

00:33:35.040 Exactly.

00:33:35.680 Yep.

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00:35:10.080 Thank you.

00:35:11.480 So when anger shows up in us, what is it a warning us of?

00:35:16.260 Yeah.

00:35:16.520 I mean it's one of it.

00:35:17.440 So this is true of all emotions that when we, um, uh, when we feel them, it's our, one

00:35:25.140 of our brains ways of like providing us information, right?

00:35:28.580 So when you're scared, that's your brains, one of your brains ways of, of saying, Hey,

00:35:33.440 there's a, there's a threat, right?

00:35:34.880 There's danger around when you're sad.

00:35:38.020 It means you've lost something and it's your brain's way of telling you that anger is one

00:35:42.000 of your brain's ways of telling you that someone's treating you badly, that you've experienced

00:35:45.620 this injustice and that, that you got to do something about it.

00:35:48.500 And then when your fight or flight system kicks in, that's your brain's way of saying, um,

00:35:54.380 like giving you the energy to, to deal with that.

00:35:57.260 And so one of the best ways to, to handle anger is to channel that energy into solving

00:36:03.760 whatever that problem is.

00:36:05.120 Right.

00:36:05.420 Something positive.

00:36:05.920 Yeah.

00:36:06.520 It's, I, yeah, I feel like, but if you, some of it could go, cause what if you tell someone

00:36:11.060 like, yeah, you should get into quilting or doing something that's progress, you know,

00:36:14.180 and then they just quilt like a, you know, a advertisement for saw two or whatever, cause

00:36:18.640 that's how angry they are, you know, like that would be my biggest, but I guess that

00:36:22.960 would be like at least a nice piece of art and they could sell.

00:36:25.840 Yeah.

00:36:26.440 Um, so yeah, I guess that does kind of make sense.

00:36:30.000 I mean, I mean, so I love the, the saw two quilt idea, uh, makes me wonder if that exists,

00:36:35.200 but, uh, so, but, yeah.

00:36:37.620 Um, but we should, uh, but I mean, channeling your anger into art is a, is a thing people

00:36:43.540 do.

00:36:43.840 Right.

00:36:44.140 I mean, that's a good, healthy way.

00:36:45.920 I mean, poetry, other forms of writing, art.

00:36:50.260 It's so hard though.

00:36:51.700 Oh yeah.

00:36:52.000 It's so hard when I close my car door and I'm like, to then want to draw something.

00:37:01.820 Right.

00:37:02.140 Unless I just write how I feel and just show it to like, but it's so hard.

00:37:06.620 Like, I guess that's the thing.

00:37:08.040 It's like, how do you get over that?

00:37:11.400 Like, how do you get over, like convert one moment into another so that you can, cause

00:37:16.700 that's really the key, huh?

00:37:17.780 Yep.

00:37:18.500 Well, and I think this is like what it, what it takes to be and ultimately like what I

00:37:22.740 want and why I'm on social media and why, why I write things is because I want people

00:37:28.320 to have sort of a healthier relationship with their emotions.

00:37:31.260 And sometimes what that takes is like a deescalation in the moment so that you can still hang on

00:37:39.520 to the, at least the thoughts of anger in a way that is healthy, that allows you to channel

00:37:44.820 them into something positive.

00:37:46.120 Right.

00:37:46.520 Cause the truth is like, even those emails that I was talking about, I couldn't write

00:37:50.640 those if I was in such a fit of rage that I wasn't making any sense.

00:37:54.000 Right.

00:37:54.340 You've got to come down a little bit.

00:37:56.040 Yeah.

00:37:56.160 Even to get correct punctuation, you have to be almost like at a four.

00:37:59.360 Right.

00:37:59.700 You've got a nine, it's all caps.

00:38:03.000 It is dangerous emojis that you can get off.

00:38:05.760 You have a VPN.

00:38:06.960 This is one of the things that I think actually has made electronic communication kind of dangerous

00:38:12.920 for people.

00:38:13.840 I used to have a professor who, when I was in college who said, Hey, when, when you get

00:38:18.380 an exam back, I don't want you to come talk to me about it for 24 hours.

00:38:22.620 So I just want you to call, like, just take some time to think about it.

00:38:25.840 Relax your, you're emoting too strongly in that first 24 hours to take some time, but

00:38:30.900 now, and that was easier to do back then because, you know, you weren't going to see

00:38:34.800 them for a couple of days anyways.

00:38:35.720 You didn't have access to them the way you do now via email or, or whatever.

00:38:40.660 Now, uh, you know, I think when people get mad, it's so easy to fire off a quick response,

00:38:45.960 to fire off an email, to fire off a tweet or a text or whatever, um, that it, it, people

00:38:51.780 can do things when they're feeling most enraged or when they're feeling most upset.

00:38:56.640 Yeah.

00:38:57.260 Yeah.

00:38:57.660 And then it's really made it almost tougher in person because you don't have, like when

00:39:01.880 you're talking to somebody, you can't just like set them down for two or three minutes

00:39:05.860 while you think about your answer and pee again or whatever you do.

00:39:09.400 Um, or get you a little, you know, get you a little dessert or something.

00:39:13.920 But, um, yeah, that it's almost gets like, we want to communicate less in person in a

00:39:20.260 way because online communication is kind of easier.

00:39:24.280 Yeah.

00:39:24.720 I think it is.

00:39:25.500 I mean, I think, I think it is for a couple of reasons.

00:39:27.960 One is you do, it is in some good ways, right?

00:39:30.840 You have more time to think about what you want to say and that's probably a good thing,

00:39:34.720 but it's also easier in some bad ways and that you don't really like right now you and

00:39:40.160 I are talking to each other and everything I'm seeing, I can see how you're responding

00:39:43.300 to it in your face.

00:39:44.140 Right.

00:39:44.660 But if you and I were communicating over text, I have no idea how what I'm saying is impacting

00:39:50.000 you.

00:39:50.520 And so it's easier for me.

00:39:52.460 It might be easier in that context to say something cruel or, or hurtful or, um,

00:39:59.060 Hopeful even.

00:39:59.840 Yeah.

00:40:00.380 You know, because I don't have, I'm not confronted with what it did to you when,

00:40:04.720 when you got the message.

00:40:05.880 So I wonder what that does to us as people over time, right?

00:40:08.880 When they're, because it used to be like, if you wanted to, well, I guess you could write

00:40:14.160 a letter, but, but it used to, yeah, you had to, there was, it used to be probably more

00:40:20.980 often you had to do face to face.

00:40:23.400 More often.

00:40:24.240 Yep.

00:40:25.060 And so you had to get the real reactions.

00:40:27.540 You had to get the real feelings of what was going on.

00:40:31.160 Whereas if you can just message it, it's still scary, but it's not.

00:40:34.920 It doesn't, it must affect us differently emotionally over time.

00:40:38.720 I wonder if that's valuable or not.

00:40:39.940 Is this making any sense?

00:40:40.940 No, absolutely.

00:40:41.800 I mean, I think, I mean, I think what happens is a couple of things.

00:40:44.720 One, it's, it's, we get out of practice, right?

00:40:47.120 I mean, you get out of practice interacting with people and, and it becomes really easy

00:40:51.500 to forget how, what you're saying is, is impacting them in a very real and meaningful way and

00:40:59.820 how you may have hurt their feelings or, or whatever.

00:41:02.140 Oh yeah.

00:41:02.560 Yeah.

00:41:03.460 What about some other options for like the healthy processing of anger?

00:41:08.580 Well, so yeah, that's one of the things we didn't get to is, is, um, you can think about

00:41:12.960 like what we've been talking about is how you handle your anger once you're feeling it.

00:41:17.020 What we haven't talked about yet is how you can kind of create a life where you are, um,

00:41:22.300 more where, where you're managing it better in advance, right?

00:41:26.140 Meaning, um, yeah, that's what I need.

00:41:28.440 Yeah.

00:41:28.880 So, you know, if, if you think about that model I described before, right, you've got your,

00:41:33.640 your trigger, you've got your mood at the time of the trigger and you've got your

00:41:36.540 interpretation.

00:41:37.440 Well, you can intervene in any of those places, right?

00:41:41.340 So you can like, we don't have control of every trigger we experience, but there are

00:41:46.040 some we invite into our lives, right?

00:41:48.320 Either on purpose or on accident.

00:41:50.720 Tiffany or whoever you're thinking about or anybody specific, it could be.

00:41:54.260 Sure.

00:41:54.600 I mean, even, even things like the, the example I always use is like, so I, I used to love

00:42:00.160 scary movies when I was growing up.

00:42:01.400 I loved them.

00:42:02.120 At a certain point I realized, you know what?

00:42:04.140 These are having a pretty negative effect on me, right?

00:42:06.380 I'm staying up too late afterwards.

00:42:07.800 I'm getting scared, whatever.

00:42:09.020 So I started watching them less often, right?

00:42:11.140 That's, we can do that with provocations.

00:42:13.920 We can say, I'm not going to watch the news as often as I used to.

00:42:17.940 I'm not going to watch sports as often as I used to because it's getting

00:42:20.580 to me in ways that aren't good for me.

00:42:22.780 We can even say, you know, I'm going to change my commute up so that I don't find

00:42:28.040 myself in traffic as often as I, I once did.

00:42:31.220 I don't know if that's possible in Nashville, but right.

00:42:33.060 But even if it's longer, it's like, I'm still going to change it up.

00:42:35.740 So I'm just not, cause the traffic, that's a good point because sometimes though, we

00:42:40.540 will recognize the things that agitate us and still continue to do them.

00:42:44.420 Yep.

00:42:44.680 What is that called?

00:42:45.700 Yeah.

00:42:46.140 Yeah.

00:42:46.500 I don't know if that has a name actually, but, um.

00:42:48.780 But you know what I'm talking about?

00:42:49.680 Yeah.

00:42:49.980 No.

00:42:50.280 I mean, when people continue to sort of walk into those, those situations that, that

00:42:56.160 leave them feeling frustrated.

00:42:58.420 Yeah.

00:42:59.080 It's like they, you want the agitation.

00:43:00.580 It's like, you know, it's going to bother you.

00:43:02.060 So then you know, you're going to be able to be angry.

00:43:04.200 Your anger almost becomes an addiction in a way.

00:43:07.040 When, and the, the worst thing that can happen there sometimes is sometimes we so

00:43:11.120 anticipate that a situation is going to go poorly that we actually bring it out of that

00:43:17.260 situation.

00:43:17.740 Like we, you know, we're, we're going to Thanksgiving dinner and we know our uncle is

00:43:22.000 going to be racist or whatever.

00:43:23.340 And so, and so we go there and we end up sort of, first of all, we're, we're hostile

00:43:29.100 to them in advance in a way that it actually brings out their hostility back to us.

00:43:34.520 And then also we, we sort of unintentionally like goat them into things.

00:43:38.620 Yeah.

00:43:39.020 And we bring it out.

00:43:39.600 Like we'll even pass the black beans to them and then lose it on them for no reason

00:43:42.900 or something, you know?

00:43:43.840 Right.

00:43:44.140 Like, and they didn't do any, it's just like, we're just waiting in our head, you know,

00:43:48.020 or we'll ask for the brown rice and they'll look at us a certain way and they just, they

00:43:52.680 can't handle it.

00:43:53.300 Yeah.

00:43:53.500 It's like, and then it's almost like, yeah, it's like a lot of times you set things

00:43:58.220 up, you know how they're going to be.

00:44:00.180 God, that's such an instance, man.

00:44:02.260 What do you do in that instance?

00:44:03.640 Cause that's a huge one.

00:44:04.840 I think.

00:44:05.060 Yeah.

00:44:05.360 Well, I think it's, it's about what I, what I like to call like proactive emotion management,

00:44:10.060 right?

00:44:10.440 So it's, it's saying, okay, I'm anticipating that this situation is going to go badly.

00:44:15.560 What are some things that I can do now to prevent it from going the way I think it could

00:44:20.160 go?

00:44:20.540 Right.

00:44:20.820 And so that might be, Hey, let's, let's give people the benefit of the doubt, right?

00:44:24.440 That might be going into the situation and saying, um, you know, let's, let's not assume

00:44:29.720 that they're going to do and say the worst thing.

00:44:31.980 Let's go into that situation.

00:44:34.060 Um, maybe I, I minimize my contact with them.

00:44:36.980 Yeah.

00:44:37.120 It's Thanksgiving, but I don't have to be in the same room with this person the entire

00:44:40.400 night.

00:44:40.780 And I can, I can minimize how often I talk to them.

00:44:43.580 Maybe it's you and your, your partner who you're at the event with.

00:44:47.080 You have like a, like a safe word, right?

00:44:49.460 When you're getting frustrated that, that some, some signal that you can do to send them a

00:44:53.380 message saying like, Hey, get me out of this.

00:44:55.880 Right.

00:44:56.140 I mean, there's, there's all these things we can do.

00:44:58.640 It's just, we have to be thoughtful about it in advance.

00:45:00.880 And I think a lot of times we're not thoughtful about it.

00:45:03.420 Yeah.

00:45:04.280 Yeah.

00:45:04.640 I'll struggle.

00:45:05.280 I know sometimes, like if I know, like sometimes I can cut myself off and I'd be like, Hey,

00:45:10.760 go introduce yourself in the beginning instead of keeping an air where it's like, you have

00:45:15.680 something in your head.

00:45:16.880 Yeah.

00:45:17.200 Cause I'm in, I'm in recovery.

00:45:19.160 And so I'll have a lot of things like I'll build a world in my head.

00:45:21.900 That's not really going on in the world around me.

00:45:24.760 Yep.

00:45:24.920 And so, so sometimes some of those things I can cut off, like, Hey, go and go say, Hey,

00:45:29.820 how's things going?

00:45:30.700 That way you've already created the first space of communication.

00:45:33.820 It's been cool.

00:45:34.820 Everything's good.

00:45:35.480 Then if they do say, say, say something, sometimes that if you're expecting somebody to say a certain

00:45:39.860 thing, it doesn't really land on you the same way.

00:45:42.540 Yep.

00:45:42.660 Um, a lot of times for me, it is, I'll keep myself away from people if I know I'm agitated.

00:45:49.920 So some, so that's one of the things I think you said of just being able to prepare a little

00:45:53.860 bit, but then it's like, sometimes it's like that isolation builds on my own agitation because

00:45:58.700 I'm always just kind of in my own world process and stuff.

00:46:01.320 Yeah.

00:46:02.040 No, that's really interesting that like, you know, we often do sort of create this world

00:46:07.660 that, that may or may not be realistic.

00:46:10.060 And we assume, um, you know, people are going to be a certain way.

00:46:13.940 They're going to do a certain thing or they're thinking like we do a lot of mind reading,

00:46:17.440 you know, and we assume people think the way we think they think.

00:46:21.480 Like, and, um, and then, yeah, it's crazy, isn't it?

00:46:25.160 Yeah.

00:46:25.360 And what you just said about going up and introducing yourself or saying hi or whatever, that's a,

00:46:29.560 that's really interesting because what it does is it, it, it gives you the opportunity

00:46:34.820 to realize that what you're thinking isn't accurate.

00:46:37.020 Yeah.

00:46:37.240 It's funny you say that.

00:46:37.820 Cause yeah, one thing, one thing we have learned a lot in recovery is just like, um,

00:46:41.160 not believe in our brain.

00:46:42.300 Yeah.

00:46:42.760 That our perception of things is off.

00:46:44.620 Yep.

00:46:45.060 You know?

00:46:45.780 Um, I mean, that's really important.

00:46:47.000 And it's like, you want to trust yourself, but you also have to leave some room to say,

00:46:51.480 you know what?

00:46:52.020 Hey, my understanding of the situation could be wrong.

00:46:54.440 Right.

00:46:54.780 And, and when I meet people, um, I've gotta, I've gotta let them, I mean, yeah, I can go

00:47:00.300 in and I can be cautious, right?

00:47:01.940 That's one thing, but I shouldn't assume that my, my understanding of them is a thousand

00:47:06.300 percent accurate.

00:47:07.540 Yeah.

00:47:09.000 Yeah.

00:47:09.400 And the more I isolate and stuff, the more that bad perception builds.

00:47:13.480 Yep.

00:47:14.160 That's, what's fascinating to me.

00:47:15.780 It's like, it grows its own muscles.

00:47:18.140 Yeah.

00:47:18.260 And that is, I think if there's a thing that I find sort of most dangerous or worrisome

00:47:24.480 about modern day America or the world is the degree to which we are isolating ourselves,

00:47:31.420 especially from people that we might disagree with.

00:47:34.960 And the degree to which we're not having like real conversations with people, um, that where

00:47:40.920 we can get an opportunity to, to learn how they think, right?

00:47:44.300 We, we, we make assumptions about what other people are doing and saying and those, and

00:47:48.940 then we, we react to those assumptions more than we react to what's actually happening.

00:47:54.300 Yeah.

00:47:54.760 It is interesting how much we become kind of puppetable by like, I don't know if I just

00:48:01.680 want to say mainstream media, but by, um, bigger stories maybe that we didn't write ourselves

00:48:08.240 kind of, you know, well, and you know, and when you, when you think about what like the

00:48:13.140 social media, uh, algorithms do and how we end up seeing the content that we agree with

00:48:19.200 more regularly, we interact with people who think like us more regularly, right?

00:48:23.380 We, we just are seeing that we're connected and put that sort of in quotes, but connected

00:48:28.900 to more people than ever before, but not really because one, we're only seeing a very specific

00:48:35.280 sliver, uh, of their lives and we're, um, not having this, we're, we're not necessarily

00:48:43.320 engaging with people who are different from us very regularly.

00:48:46.240 I mean, do you guys notice that we're any angrier now than we were in the past?

00:48:51.260 Yeah, this, this is, I wish we could go back in time and like have a, some sort of an anger

00:48:56.800 thermometer, right?

00:48:57.960 That could measure anger over time because this is the question that I think everybody wants

00:49:01.860 to know the answer to is, are we angrier now than we used to be?

00:49:05.220 And in so many ways, it's, it sure seems like we are, right?

00:49:09.340 Because we see tons of examples of it.

00:49:11.440 We see so much rage.

00:49:13.380 Um, the, the, I think the parts that we don't have answers to is one is, is a lot of that

00:49:19.880 rage just more visible now than it used to be, right?

00:49:23.000 Are we seeing it more now because of social media, right?

00:49:26.020 So we get, we get more stuff captured on video than we ever did.

00:49:29.140 Um, and that might be what's happening, that those things were happening before.

00:49:33.300 We just didn't know.

00:49:34.560 Um, it could also be, um, you know, that, that particular expression styles have become

00:49:40.600 normalized, right?

00:49:41.620 So yelling, screaming, those things are becoming like hostility.

00:49:46.660 Those things are becoming more common.

00:49:48.200 That's a good point, huh?

00:49:48.740 Yeah.

00:49:49.080 And so maybe that anger was there, but, but those outward expressions are much more common

00:49:53.020 now.

00:49:53.960 I think there is some, some reason to think we're angrier now than we used to be.

00:49:58.540 I mean, I, I mean, I think like we're social, the stuff we just were saying about social

00:50:04.000 media is definitely bringing out.

00:50:05.840 I think the illusion, I think there was used to be more of, I think like tradition we had,

00:50:11.740 it felt like there was more of a sense of togetherness maybe.

00:50:15.580 Um, I wonder if those things left people feeling more complete or safer in their country.

00:50:24.280 I do start to notice that there starts to feel a little bit of like what could happen

00:50:30.320 in 15 years, as opposed to that was never a thought when I was a kid, it was always

00:50:34.220 like, well, I feel like we're going to be okay here.

00:50:37.160 Right.

00:50:37.280 Um, so I wonder if some of that, like just subconsciously starts to boil inside of you.

00:50:42.540 Oh, I absolutely think so.

00:50:44.000 I mean, I think, you know, one of the things we're dealing with, and I think a lot of this

00:50:47.740 is post pandemic, but not just post pandemic is, you know, so anger dovetails pretty closely

00:50:53.840 with anxiety, right?

00:50:55.420 Um, that, that these two emotions are pretty similar.

00:50:57.800 They actually feel pretty similar physiologically.

00:51:00.200 Um, so there's a, there's a lot of overlap there and I, I think it's fair to say that

00:51:05.960 Americans are, um, and probably worldwide, people are more anxious now about the future

00:51:10.680 than they have been for a very long time.

00:51:12.440 Right.

00:51:12.720 Okay.

00:51:12.920 Yeah.

00:51:13.120 And that anxiety, it comes from a place of uncertainty about, um, you know, safety and

00:51:20.600 financial security and all, all these things.

00:51:25.340 Even having jobs.

00:51:26.240 I mean, as they say, like AI is going to every day here, AI is going to take your job, you

00:51:29.980 know, and the guy's like, I'm unemployed.

00:51:31.640 And they're like, it'll take that job.

00:51:33.480 You're like, Jesus, I can't even be unemployed anymore.

00:51:36.300 But I think there is a little bit of fear, even somebody who's just sitting on their couch

00:51:39.620 watching, you know, eating Fritos and is watching, uh, you know, uh, TV shows all day that they're

00:51:46.840 even that job is going to be taking back.

00:51:48.500 Well, I'm going to lose this.

00:51:49.900 Right.

00:51:50.220 Yeah.

00:51:50.420 I mean, I think that there is this, all of this uncertainty is leading to people.

00:51:55.720 And because I think in some ways that part of what happens is it leads to some competitiveness

00:51:59.920 that leads to like, Hey, look, the pie is getting smaller that we all share.

00:52:04.720 And I'm worried that I'm not going to have enough.

00:52:07.600 Right.

00:52:07.920 And I'm not going to be able to make ends meet.

00:52:09.720 And all of that leads to, you know, frustration with your, your fellow humans.

00:52:16.180 Oh yeah.

00:52:16.660 Cause your perspective is suddenly I've got to take care of myself instead of like, we

00:52:20.760 have to take care of each other.

00:52:21.960 Exactly.

00:52:22.360 And that gets a little creepy.

00:52:25.160 What do we do with pervasive anger at society and ideology situation out of control?

00:52:31.560 I think that's another thing that happened during, uh, during the pandemic is that I

00:52:36.960 think, um, people, I think a lot of people in the United States and probably globally really

00:52:43.320 started to feel like they couldn't trust each other.

00:52:45.660 Yeah.

00:52:46.420 And, and I think that happened in lots of ways, right?

00:52:49.300 It was sort of a sense of, Hey, people, people aren't going to, they're more interested in

00:52:54.140 themselves than they are in taking care of each other.

00:52:56.660 Right.

00:52:56.920 They won't, you know, do X, Y, or Z.

00:52:59.400 They won't wear masks.

00:53:00.540 They won't open things up.

00:53:01.540 They're not worried about my finances.

00:53:02.900 They're not, you know, they're, they're, they're only worried about their own thing.

00:53:06.800 And I think that, that scared people and, and led to a lot of animosity amongst people.

00:53:13.300 When I think also people didn't know if their government cared anymore, which was even like

00:53:18.520 a, which was, um, probably similar in the sense that we're like, can I trust my government?

00:53:24.740 Can I trust like, um, you know, you see stories like the, uh, opioid epidemic and you're like

00:53:35.140 the fact that the family didn't even go to jail or face any time.

00:53:38.840 And the amount of, you know, uh, the amount of pain that, that caused so many families,

00:53:44.800 not to mention deaths, but I think, you know, things like that, it makes you start to question.

00:53:50.060 So if you don't even think, you know, if you can, I mean, you can always kind of question

00:53:53.200 your government.

00:53:53.680 I think that that's safe and question society and what's going on.

00:53:57.220 It's good to think, um, curiously, but I feel like that was probably another thing that happened

00:54:02.360 is people were like, I don't know.

00:54:03.900 You know, we, every commercial is about drugs.

00:54:05.880 Like, it's just like, who can I, where can I get valid information and who can I trust?

00:54:10.400 Yep.

00:54:11.280 And it probably became scary.

00:54:14.240 You're like, I have to start with myself.

00:54:15.860 Yep.

00:54:16.260 And I think that, that sort of uncertainty leads to feelings of frustration and leads to,

00:54:23.760 and, and, you know, I think part of what happened too, is that for some people, they felt like,

00:54:28.140 well, the answers here are obvious.

00:54:29.740 And so why don't other people see how obvious these answers are?

00:54:33.440 And, and, and I don't know that the answers were necessarily obvious, but, but I think

00:54:38.300 that people felt like, why can't people just do whatever?

00:54:41.640 And then we can get through this.

00:54:43.260 Right.

00:54:43.480 And when other people.

00:54:44.340 You mean during COVID you mean?

00:54:45.460 Yeah.

00:54:45.620 During COVID.

00:54:46.380 And then, yeah.

00:54:47.380 Um, yeah, I think people, and people had just also just real different views of it.

00:54:51.380 It was like in California, things were very locked down.

00:54:53.500 And then here, um, things were more open, you know?

00:54:57.240 And it was like, what's the best way to do this?

00:55:01.420 It was hard to learn.

00:55:03.340 It was even, I mean, you know, I live in, in Green Bay and we've got, you know, there's

00:55:08.380 the, there's the Green Bay public schools and there's other public school districts that

00:55:11.760 are like connected, but they're all doing different things.

00:55:14.480 And so there's a sense of, well, here we're doing this five miles away.

00:55:19.280 They're doing something different.

00:55:20.920 Why?

00:55:21.520 You know what, what's going on?

00:55:23.040 And so then there's an anger and frustration amongst the people who live in those communities.

00:55:26.620 And then people saying, well, I'm going to take my kids and send them to that school

00:55:29.180 because they're doing this or I'm going to, you know?

00:55:30.680 And, and so all of these things started to, to, to bubble up and lead to frustration.

00:55:36.520 Yeah.

00:55:36.620 A lot of frustration.

00:55:37.620 Yeah.

00:55:38.020 And a really, I know how to do it.

00:55:39.860 People wanted to, yeah.

00:55:41.320 The second you don't trust you or believe that your society that's built kind of has a,

00:55:46.120 is looking out for you or you can trust it, that it really, you've got to go back

00:55:51.500 to yourself.

00:55:51.980 Well, and then, I mean, imagine if it, if we're not talking about society, we're just

00:55:55.300 talking about a family, right?

00:55:57.660 And what, and you as like a kid and a family realize, wow, the other people in this family

00:56:04.360 aren't necessarily going to do the things that are best for me.

00:56:07.380 Right.

00:56:07.680 It becomes real hard to, to continue to feel good about that.

00:56:11.780 And over time, right?

00:56:13.000 People have to earn that trust back.

00:56:14.920 And I think we're right now in a phase where people haven't, where people don't feel like

00:56:20.140 anyone's earning that trust back.

00:56:21.340 They're just like, we still don't trust each other.

00:56:23.480 They don't have my best interests in mind.

00:56:25.200 They don't care about the same things as me.

00:56:26.960 What am I going to do?

00:56:28.520 How are we going to get through this?

00:56:29.880 And I don't think anybody's got any answers to that.

00:56:31.960 Yeah.

00:56:32.820 Yeah.

00:56:33.180 I wonder if it's one of those things that just takes time or, I mean, that's always

00:56:37.060 the thing.

00:56:37.660 Yeah.

00:56:38.320 I think you're right.

00:56:39.120 I mean, I think, I think time is going to be part of it.

00:56:41.160 Um, I hope that, I hope that there are things we can rally around.

00:56:47.120 Um, humor is usually a good one.

00:56:49.300 Yeah, absolutely.

00:56:51.060 I know they're trying to put out like, I mean, you would say that you're a comedian.

00:56:54.060 That's probably true.

00:56:55.100 I would hope to say it, huh?

00:56:56.740 They just put out, they just had a new show tires on Netflix, which is really crazy.

00:57:01.560 I've seen an ad for it.

00:57:02.560 I haven't watched it yet.

00:57:03.300 It's like different than a lot of stuff they put on there.

00:57:05.380 It's just like, it seems like it's from like totally like the eighties or something, you

00:57:09.640 know, it's just kind of like just humor without like judging that every person in the, in the

00:57:17.160 show has to have certain like, like you're just letting people be, they could be characters.

00:57:24.820 Like you could have a character.

00:57:25.920 You're like, oh, that guy's hilarious, but I don't agree with him.

00:57:28.740 Whereas to be like, oh, that guy, I'm not even going to see if he is hilarious because

00:57:33.480 I don't agree with the character.

00:57:35.600 Right.

00:57:36.120 And it's like, dude, it's okay.

00:57:37.460 You know, so like just things being more, um, possible or just open their brains to like,

00:57:43.800 okay, a character could believe differently than I do.

00:57:47.760 Right.

00:57:48.560 Yep.

00:57:48.920 Right.

00:57:49.120 Cause I think for a while it's been like, I don't even want my characters to have any

00:57:54.660 different views than I do.

00:57:55.880 That's kind of crazy.

00:57:57.160 Yeah.

00:57:57.860 When you think about that.

00:57:59.160 Yeah.

00:57:59.500 I mean, I'm drowning, but I only want a superhero to show up.

00:58:03.480 If he feels exactly the same way I do.

00:58:05.840 Yeah.

00:58:06.600 When it's tough.

00:58:07.320 I mean, like, you know, I think one of the tricky things we've had to deal with is that

00:58:13.320 there are, I mean, there are opinions that we, people can like sort of rally around their

00:58:19.660 opinions that people can, um, like disagree with and in an understandable, reasonable way,

00:58:27.200 right.

00:58:27.420 Reasonable disagreements.

00:58:28.540 But then so often those disagreements are, are about like real scary stuff.

00:58:35.200 It's not, it's not me disagreeing about like, Hey, is cats a good movie?

00:58:39.840 I don't know why I picked cats.

00:58:41.020 I think it's because my son loved the movie cats.

00:58:42.760 Oh, he did.

00:58:43.260 I haven't seen it.

00:58:43.860 I don't think.

00:58:44.840 Okay.

00:58:45.260 I'm not going to recommend it.

00:58:46.520 Okay.

00:58:46.940 Yeah.

00:58:47.220 That's my, that's, that's my advice to you.

00:58:50.040 That's if you walk away with one thing from this episode is that you probably shouldn't

00:58:54.660 see cats.

00:58:56.440 Fair.

00:58:57.140 Yeah.

00:58:57.620 So, yeah.

00:58:59.120 Um, I mean, so it's one thing to like disagree about that.

00:59:03.500 Right.

00:59:04.160 Um, totally different if we're talking about things that like really do have a, uh, like

00:59:11.340 have real consequences for people.

00:59:12.820 Oh, for sure.

00:59:13.600 You know, like there's, there, there are some opinions that we can just agree to disagree.

00:59:17.960 And then there's other stuff that is like, no, this is like, this is real personal.

00:59:22.740 Yeah.

00:59:23.120 Yeah.

00:59:23.540 Yeah.

00:59:24.580 Yeah.

00:59:24.940 We didn't used to be, we didn't used to care about it that much though.

00:59:27.620 Yeah.

00:59:28.080 They did.

00:59:28.700 I think it is interesting how much, like people used to never talk about politics that much

00:59:33.700 you would kind of say maybe who you were going to vote for and kind of sometimes you

00:59:37.180 give a couple of lines about it, but you never, I feel like would be like, oh, screw

00:59:42.540 you for voting for that.

00:59:43.800 Like it would never, even the thought would never come into your head.

00:59:46.540 I feel like, yeah, it does feel like it's taken center stage.

00:59:50.200 And I wonder how much of that is, is, I mean, it's, it's probably a lot of it is exacerbated

00:59:56.140 by social media.

00:59:57.000 I suspect the 24 hour news cycle also led to that too.

01:00:00.600 Right.

01:00:00.900 A lot of stuff that create a lot of anger.

01:00:02.460 Yeah.

01:00:03.060 Yep.

01:00:03.540 Cause we used to be able to take a day off, half the day off.

01:00:05.940 Yep.

01:00:06.980 But now they're like, oh, you need a little more anger.

01:00:09.320 Yeah.

01:00:09.880 One intentionally.

01:00:10.720 So I mean, it's like, so there's, there's plenty of research out there that says that,

01:00:15.760 you know, content news or anything else that makes people angry or scared is far more luckily

01:00:22.820 to go viral than, than other stuff.

01:00:25.800 Right.

01:00:26.040 And so, so politicians know that.

01:00:27.620 And just purely from a, from a financial perspective, if you put an ad out that makes

01:00:33.140 people mad, it's going to get more clicks.

01:00:35.080 It's going to get, I mean, it, you, you double the value essentially of that ad by making people

01:00:40.920 mad with it.

01:00:41.620 Right.

01:00:41.840 So there are people who are benefiting financially from our rage and that's not just true with

01:00:47.840 politicians.

01:00:48.260 That's true with, with, you know, Fox news, CNN, et cetera.

01:00:52.680 They, they want to make people mad.

01:00:54.200 Yeah.

01:00:54.580 I'm going.

01:00:55.080 Yeah.

01:00:55.220 Instead of just having an article, they'll, they'll reframe the title.

01:00:57.980 So it has an enemy.

01:00:58.960 Yeah.

01:00:59.520 Yep.

01:00:59.860 That's pretty crazy.

01:01:00.860 Dealing with anxiety and stress in the age of the 24 seven news cycle.

01:01:04.920 Interesting.

01:01:05.560 Let me see.

01:01:05.940 Whether it's the coronavirus, political divisiveness, threats of terrorism or mass shootings, you

01:01:11.760 might not be immediately affected by these issues, but constant exposure to the 24 hour

01:01:15.100 news and social media, which is often heavily skewed towards the negative can adversely influence

01:01:20.180 your mental health and overall wellbeing.

01:01:21.600 More than 70% of Americans believe the media blows things out of proportion, which may seem

01:01:25.800 harmless, but it could lead to increased stress and anxiety.

01:01:28.780 Wow.

01:01:29.280 So the tough part is if we're addicted to it though.

01:01:32.960 Right.

01:01:34.420 Yep.

01:01:34.640 That's the tough part is that we're, if, if we're addicted to it.

01:01:37.720 Yeah.

01:01:38.140 I mean, that's because, I mean, you know, people are drawn to this thing that ultimately causes

01:01:43.780 them harm.

01:01:45.100 Right.

01:01:45.640 You know, and what is that?

01:01:47.080 Is that always been, I mean, has it just been since the apple in the garden of Eden?

01:01:51.460 You know, I mean, information is, I mean, people crave information, right?

01:01:56.880 I mean, that's another emotion that I like to talk about sometimes is curiosity, right?

01:02:00.560 And people, people do crave information.

01:02:03.460 It makes them feel good about themselves, especially if they can share it with other people.

01:02:07.320 It's like a form of social currency.

01:02:09.720 And so, and so knowing things is, you know, better than not knowing things.

01:02:14.380 And so people are drawn to, to media.

01:02:17.120 And then when that media makes them mad, they're more likely actually to share it with other

01:02:21.640 people.

01:02:21.940 They're more likely because it, it, it, it gets the reaction they want.

01:02:26.400 Right.

01:02:26.640 Yeah.

01:02:26.800 So if I came in here and told you just some sort of arbitrary fact, you'd be like, ah,

01:02:30.880 that's great.

01:02:31.260 But if I came in here and told you something that made you really mad, now I'm getting a

01:02:35.120 reaction.

01:02:35.540 I'd be like, what the heck?

01:02:37.020 Yeah.

01:02:37.360 What are we going to do about it?

01:02:38.820 Exactly.

01:02:39.520 It's pretty crazy.

01:02:40.560 And then we problem solve.

01:02:41.580 So we've really just, we've kind of like death hacked ourself in a way.

01:02:45.160 Like there's life hacks.

01:02:46.120 And then I feel like there's death hacks.

01:02:47.360 And I feel like sometimes the algorithm does that, you know, or the possibility to always

01:02:53.380 have it at your fingertips, because I'll find if I'd rather just chill or meditate, or

01:02:57.580 if I'd rather go find something to make me angry, I sometimes would like to find something

01:03:01.840 to make me angry.

01:03:02.620 Yeah.

01:03:03.200 I get that.

01:03:03.780 Yeah.

01:03:04.720 Because, I mean, it does, I think for some people that anger feels powerful, right?

01:03:10.320 I mean, it's like, there's a sense, I mean, we talked earlier about it sometimes feeling

01:03:13.460 helpless, but there's a, there's a, there's a piece of like the, the heart rate increase,

01:03:18.120 the, the blood pressure increase, the muscle tension that leads to these feelings of, of

01:03:23.560 excitement.

01:03:24.940 Yeah.

01:03:25.380 Yeah.

01:03:25.780 Well, it feels like it activates you.

01:03:27.260 Yep.

01:03:27.600 Exactly.

01:03:28.180 Is there a such thing as like a healthy anger?

01:03:30.260 And then what is the difference between like a healthy anger and a rage?

01:03:33.940 Yeah.

01:03:34.420 Is that noticeable?

01:03:35.640 Yeah.

01:03:35.880 So what I would say is that when it comes to anger, I tend to think of all emotions as

01:03:41.380 not having, they aren't positive or negative on their own.

01:03:45.400 They're just information systems, right?

01:03:47.080 And it's, it's good to feel things.

01:03:49.900 In fact, if I had a wish for people, it would be that they felt the whole sort of range of

01:03:55.140 emotions, right?

01:03:55.920 That that's what would be good for them, but in a nuanced way, meaning that they could evaluate

01:04:00.920 whether or not this thing is that they're feeling is good for them or bad for them in

01:04:06.080 a particular context.

01:04:07.920 So when I think about healthy versus unhealthy anger, a big piece of it is what is it doing

01:04:13.340 for me or to me, right?

01:04:15.640 So am I, uh, what kind of consequences am I experiencing?

01:04:19.300 For some people, those consequences can be physical, right?

01:04:22.180 They can have like heart problems or muscle tension or chronic headaches or things like

01:04:27.300 that.

01:04:28.040 Um, for some people, um, those consequences are like relationships.

01:04:32.540 They get in a lot of verbal and physical fights, um, online fights.

01:04:37.160 For some people, those consequences are, um, uh, property damage.

01:04:41.240 They break stuff.

01:04:41.880 Um, Oh yes.

01:04:43.340 Steel stuff.

01:04:44.140 Yep.

01:04:44.300 Um, so, I mean, sometimes though, it's like other negative emotions.

01:04:48.060 It's like, I get mad and then afterwards I feel guilty about something I said.

01:04:52.120 And so I feel real sad later, or I get scared that, you know, my, my partner is going to

01:04:56.740 leave me or, or I'm going to get in trouble.

01:04:59.240 Um, and so they have these other negative emotions.

01:05:01.560 Talk about people like, that's me.

01:05:03.240 I'll get upset and then I will, I'll apologize quickly usually.

01:05:07.040 Uh, but I, when I get in a moment of really being really upset, it's hard for me to manage

01:05:11.840 myself.

01:05:12.560 Yeah.

01:05:12.960 And then do you end up feeling sort of like guilty about it?

01:05:16.040 Yeah.

01:05:16.180 I feel remorseful.

01:05:16.980 I'm usually good at being able to apologize pretty quickly.

01:05:19.140 That's good.

01:05:19.740 Being able to notice my space in it.

01:05:21.800 Uh, but, but the fact that it happens at all, you know, is like, is something that has

01:05:29.700 been uncomfortable for me, I think.

01:05:31.160 Yeah.

01:05:32.060 Um, and I appreciate you saying that.

01:05:33.920 I didn't mean to interrupt you there.

01:05:35.000 No, that's all right.

01:05:35.900 Um, yeah, I think that's, you know, it connects to like for a lot of people, their anger leads

01:05:42.140 to things like substance abuse.

01:05:43.620 It leads to overeating.

01:05:45.100 It leads to, um, even, I mean, you know, substance abuse defined broadly, like alcohol,

01:05:49.760 nicotine included, right?

01:05:50.900 Yeah.

01:05:51.020 People, people find ways of coping with their anger because they don't have better ways.

01:05:56.840 And so they end up turning to, to drugs or alcohol.

01:06:00.140 Oh yeah.

01:06:00.700 And, and, you know, and that's, uh, that, you know, that ends up having consequences

01:06:06.300 and yeah.

01:06:07.940 Was there more you want to say?

01:06:08.840 Sorry.

01:06:09.360 No, it's, I mean, I think that sort of covers it, but I think, I think the big thing is

01:06:13.300 there are lots and lots of consequences to unhealthy anger, right?

01:06:17.840 There's also lots of good things we can do with it, right?

01:06:20.020 There's lots of ways that we can, we can turn our anger into those positive ways.

01:06:24.240 And so when, when back to when people think about, okay, what, how is, what's the impact

01:06:29.300 of this on me, um, and on those people around me is to really sort of evaluate what, what

01:06:35.740 the outcome is.

01:06:37.320 Right.

01:06:37.720 So if you can take a moment to evaluate what the outcome is going to be, like what's going

01:06:40.480 to happen right now, I'm upset.

01:06:41.540 So if I act on it, then I'm going to have to apologize later.

01:06:45.560 I'm going to be probably, then I'm going to be bummed out at myself.

01:06:49.560 Yep.

01:06:49.860 So now, right now I'm upset at somebody else and maybe even at myself.

01:06:53.100 And then later I'm going to be, I'll have to apologize to somebody and probably then

01:06:58.860 be a little bit disheartened in myself for my actions.

01:07:01.880 Yeah.

01:07:02.120 So it's like, what do I really want to, or do I just want things to kind of be chill?

01:07:07.220 See, I love what you're saying right now, because to me, one of the, one of the best

01:07:11.300 lessons people can learn about anger or any emotion is when I'm feeling it, I need to stop

01:07:18.260 for a second and think about what my goals are.

01:07:20.360 What's the thing that I, where do I want this situation to end?

01:07:24.980 Right.

01:07:25.080 And sometimes that is like, you know, if I get mad on my, my way to work, uh, because

01:07:31.960 somebody cut me off right now, I could, I could drive them off the road and get in a

01:07:36.760 fight with them, but does that get me to work on time?

01:07:38.760 Right.

01:07:39.140 And the way I want, like my goal is to get to my destination safely.

01:07:42.820 Um, and, and so I should focus on that and anything else that I try and do in that

01:07:48.260 moment doesn't serve me.

01:07:50.160 Yeah.

01:07:50.640 You know, and I mean, I use an exaggerated example, but even giving them the finger or honking

01:07:54.700 at them, all those things just serve to distract me from my actual goal.

01:07:58.160 Yeah.

01:07:58.600 And, and we can think about that in a gajillion different other places, right?

01:08:02.380 If I'm, if I get, you know, if I scrolling through social media and I see a post that

01:08:08.360 bugs me, yeah, I can, I can fight back or I can argue or whatever, or I can think about

01:08:13.840 what, what do I, why am I here?

01:08:15.900 Why am I in this space?

01:08:17.100 What's, what is the point of arguing?

01:08:19.220 Maybe there's, maybe there's a good reason to, um, and, and I should, or maybe there's a

01:08:23.400 good reason for me to just scroll on and not care.

01:08:26.160 Yeah.

01:08:26.520 And I was just thinking when you said that, the social media definitely kind of, it almost

01:08:29.640 deflates our anger in some ways, because instead of a lot of times it used to be maybe if enough

01:08:35.320 people got angry about something, they would go protest.

01:08:38.180 They would make a difference.

01:08:39.620 They would boycott.

01:08:40.760 They would not use a product or they would stand up.

01:08:43.240 But now it almost feels like you can comment into almost a vacuum because of how quick things

01:08:49.340 disappear and you can just say, well, I commented or I said, you know, or I posted, right.

01:08:54.320 I did something, but then it kind of like just satiates enough the human desire to do

01:08:59.800 something where we don't end up doing things.

01:09:02.260 And then we, as a group get kind of further and further into this crevasse.

01:09:06.580 I think that is a real problem.

01:09:08.760 I think you're absolutely, I do.

01:09:10.140 I think you're absolutely right that, that a big, a big part of what happens is some,

01:09:15.020 there's this, this social media, and I don't want to minimize social media activism because

01:09:19.200 there are forms of it that are really powerful and really meaningful, but, but there are also

01:09:23.020 forms of it that are, that don't do much.

01:09:25.100 Right.

01:09:25.500 And, but they, they, I think you use the word satiate, right.

01:09:28.420 They, they give you a sense of like, I did something and because I did something, I can now

01:09:33.640 rest.

01:09:34.080 Right.

01:09:34.380 I, I'm, I, I had my impact.

01:09:36.840 Right.

01:09:37.220 I had my human impact, but it's not, sometimes it's, and it changes so much.

01:09:42.020 Right.

01:09:42.580 Um, it changes so much.

01:09:44.320 Whereas like every day there's a new option almost.

01:09:47.380 Yep.

01:09:47.880 So the thing you impacted is just, they've almost just replaced it with something new.

01:09:52.160 Yep.

01:09:52.740 And, and there's a new thing to be mad about too, right?

01:09:55.200 You've got a new, I've got a new, uh, uh, both outlet, but also, you know, thing to

01:10:00.820 focus on.

01:10:01.520 Yeah.

01:10:01.540 Moved right along.

01:10:02.340 Yep.

01:10:02.520 Uh, here's a article that was in the Atlantic.

01:10:04.380 The problem with social media protests, um, before the internet changes speed at which

01:10:10.060 the world moves, movements were slower growing.

01:10:11.880 A year of organizing and directly advocating for change led to a 13th month long Montgomery

01:10:16.340 bus boycott that began with Rosa Parks act of resistance.

01:10:19.620 Um, right.

01:10:21.600 That's what it used to be like.

01:10:23.400 Uh, by contrast, mass protests such as Occupy Wall Street formed rapidly, but then lacking

01:10:29.560 that underlying resilience created over time, often lost focus, direction, and most important,

01:10:35.440 their potential to affect change.

01:10:37.140 Interesting.

01:10:38.680 So in some ways it feels like what, what they're saying is when you, when you put a lot of

01:10:43.440 work into something in advance, then you want to see it through in ways that social media

01:10:47.720 protests don't have that.

01:10:48.920 Right.

01:10:49.180 And it's like, you know, I've been thinking about this for a week, so I don't need to keep

01:10:52.680 thinking about it.

01:10:53.260 I mean, I don't have as much sunk into this.

01:10:56.080 No.

01:10:56.160 And if I close the app, I'm not even an activist anymore.

01:10:58.240 Right.

01:10:58.740 Right.

01:10:59.540 Interesting.

01:11:00.380 It's kind of interesting, huh?

01:11:01.580 Yeah.

01:11:02.380 I grew up in a home where there was a lot of anger, right?

01:11:05.980 It was probably our number one emotion that we had.

01:11:09.740 Right.

01:11:10.160 You know, uh, it was just farm to table there.

01:11:13.120 It was like, you got, it was a hundred percent grass fed.

01:11:17.240 All right.

01:11:18.220 All right.

01:11:18.560 You know, and it was, it was just the only way that we communicated.

01:11:22.920 How much of a responsibility is it of parents to like teach kids what their feelings are?

01:11:31.160 Right.

01:11:31.840 Yeah.

01:11:32.300 I love this.

01:11:34.040 Um, and so real quick, when you say there was a lot of anger, was it mostly like outward

01:11:38.620 express, like yelling, screaming?

01:11:40.720 Yeah.

01:11:40.780 Mostly yelling, screaming, throwing things, um, judgment.

01:11:45.200 Okay.

01:11:45.980 Um, those are like the main emotions, you know, and then humor.

01:11:49.700 Okay.

01:11:50.320 Nice.

01:11:50.540 So, but we, otherwise it was just always, you knew somebody was going to be angry.

01:11:56.120 Where were you in the, in the birth order?

01:11:58.200 I was number two.

01:11:58.880 I have an older brother and two sisters.

01:12:00.520 Okay.

01:12:00.800 And the sisters are both younger than you.

01:12:02.220 Yep.

01:12:02.540 They're both younger and everybody's, um, alive still pretty much.

01:12:07.100 Okay.

01:12:08.220 Pretty much.

01:12:09.180 Yeah.

01:12:09.580 I mean, some people are, you know, got it.

01:12:12.340 They're willing to risk it all, you know, but, uh, some of us are doing our best.

01:12:16.260 So, but yeah, but so that's where we had in that.

01:12:18.680 It was just, it was, there was a lot of anger in there.

01:12:21.360 You know, I think that, um, what, my feeling is with, with kids in particular, I mean, we

01:12:27.920 can think about this from the, well, I'll start with what I consider to be sort of the golden

01:12:32.760 rule of, of emotion and, and parenting.

01:12:36.400 And that is that kids tend to express emotions the way their caregivers did.

01:12:41.060 And so they tend to, and it's, it's rooted in like age old psychology that we, it's called

01:12:47.200 modeling, right?

01:12:48.200 And so kids tend to model what their parents did that if, if mom or dad yell and scream,

01:12:53.880 kids tend to yell and scream as a way of, of dealing with emotions.

01:12:58.060 And, um, now there's some caveats that because simultaneously the, the other side is that,

01:13:04.280 you know, kids sometimes get rewarded or punished for emotional expressions, um, of particular

01:13:10.860 types, right?

01:13:11.360 So a kid hits somebody and they get punished for it.

01:13:13.880 Um, yeah.

01:13:14.760 Um, now oddly enough, sometimes they get punished for it by getting hit by, by the parent, right?

01:13:20.380 Getting spanked or, or whatever.

01:13:22.220 Right.

01:13:22.340 That's kind of wild when you think about it like that.

01:13:24.140 Right.

01:13:24.600 And so, um, or they get in trouble for yelling by being yelled at, um, you know, so like there,

01:13:30.120 there's all sorts of mixed messages there.

01:13:32.440 Um, but to me, I mean, some of the, the healthiest things you can do with kids when you're, when

01:13:39.240 you're trying to raise emotionally wise children is to talk about feelings often, to give them

01:13:46.740 the, the, give them the language to have that conversation, to help them identify what they're

01:13:51.700 feeling.

01:13:52.160 Yeah.

01:13:52.440 I think that's a big problem for a lot of people, for a lot of kids and continues is they

01:13:57.880 don't know the difference between anger and sadness.

01:14:01.020 They don't know the difference between fear and anger.

01:14:03.520 Oh yeah.

01:14:03.980 I would just start vibe, you know, everybody needs to see that kid.

01:14:06.620 He's just vibrating.

01:14:07.600 You don't know what's going on.

01:14:08.680 You got to show them a, um, flashcard or something, you know, say that's joy, that's

01:14:13.640 anger.

01:14:14.120 That's, but yeah, cause you don't know.

01:14:16.140 Right.

01:14:16.700 And so helping kids to, I mean, one of the things I like to do with my kids and is, um,

01:14:22.340 and liked when they were young is to like unpack those emotional experiences with them and,

01:14:27.360 and not just their own, but when they see a kid, you know, melting down or a kid getting

01:14:33.000 angry or sad or scared or whatever to, to say, so what do you think's going on?

01:14:37.220 Like what, where did that come from?

01:14:39.060 Why, you know, if we're watching TV and a kid reacts some way.

01:14:42.420 Just so at least that they can have in their own head, like, okay, this is what happens

01:14:45.460 when this happens.

01:14:46.360 This is what I look like when it happens.

01:14:48.580 This is where I can start to see in somebody else what's going on.

01:14:51.940 And then you'll recognize it in yourself and at least have some sort of, you'll be

01:14:55.400 the conductor in some way, as much as you can, maybe some of the outcomes, if not some

01:15:00.660 of the origins of the feeling.

01:15:01.940 Yeah.

01:15:02.120 And then you can even talk through, you know, what are some options for them now?

01:15:05.200 Right.

01:15:05.460 You know, this kid's, yeah, you know, just had this, just, it's feeling really hurt.

01:15:10.100 What can, what can he or she do, uh, to deal with those feelings of hurt?

01:15:13.820 And I mean, I think those are all are like good, healthy ways, but I think it starts with

01:15:18.820 wanting to make sure people are having those conversations, that people are really understanding

01:15:23.140 it because part of what happens too, is that people can realize that, you know, that we

01:15:28.380 like to believe, and I've even been saying, you know, look, your, your, your feelings are

01:15:32.260 one of the ways your brain tells you what, what's going on, what you're experiencing.

01:15:35.800 That doesn't necessarily mean that they're rooted in logic or reality or that they're even

01:15:41.420 really valid, right?

01:15:42.420 We, we can be angry over a misunderstanding.

01:15:44.960 We can be scared over something that's not really dangerous.

01:15:48.640 Um, and the, the feelings are real, right?

01:15:51.820 And we shouldn't minimize that, but we should take some time to like unpack them and talk

01:15:56.920 about like, what, what is, what's going on?

01:16:00.040 Why, why are you feeling this way?

01:16:01.280 I think that kind of stuff is important, at least because I think for myself a long time,

01:16:04.780 I didn't know a lot of feelings I was even having.

01:16:06.600 I didn't know.

01:16:07.120 I only knew a couple, like.

01:16:09.340 Like, I, I, I remember like, yeah, like certain things would go on and I wouldn't really have

01:16:15.920 any feelings about it.

01:16:17.120 And I was like, man, I never really had a lot of feelings.

01:16:19.940 So I think sometimes talking with your kids, like, oh, this is a feeling.

01:16:23.900 That's what that is.

01:16:24.620 This is what's going on.

01:16:25.440 Because otherwise you can just think you're bonkers as a child, you know, like if somebody

01:16:29.800 doesn't tell you kind of what's happening with you.

01:16:32.120 Well, a lot of times kids aren't really allowed to have feelings, right?

01:16:34.920 I mean, that, like that, that they're shamed for them, that the message is, hey, hold that

01:16:39.600 in.

01:16:40.360 Don't let people see that.

01:16:42.140 Um, and then, I mean, of course that's going to continue, uh, into, into adulthood, um,

01:16:48.020 where, where they're just, they don't feel like they're allowed.

01:16:52.520 They don't feel like it's safe to express that stuff.

01:16:54.880 I was thinking if you allow your kids, right?

01:16:57.360 Like, like space to feel their feelings.

01:17:01.140 Okay.

01:17:02.080 Does that create in them, like, you know, recognize they're feeling something, allow them a little

01:17:06.540 space to feel it.

01:17:07.540 Right.

01:17:08.440 Yeah.

01:17:08.660 Does that create like more of like an emotional resilience in them, which would just then,

01:17:14.320 like, then when they're angry again, it would just kind of become another emotion to them

01:17:18.640 sort of like, um, does that make any sense?

01:17:22.160 Yeah.

01:17:22.320 I mean, I think what, what you really want.

01:17:25.280 So then in the future they could cope better.

01:17:26.640 So if it happens to them next time, it'd be like, okay.

01:17:29.800 Yep.

01:17:30.320 Cause what you really want is, I mean, you want a situation where your kids can, when they're

01:17:36.760 feeling something, A, know what they're feeling, B, have a sense for where it's coming

01:17:41.700 from, understand like it's root causes, be able to critically evaluate those root causes

01:17:46.480 and then know what to do with it.

01:17:47.880 Right.

01:17:48.280 And I mean, and that's a, that's a level of sophistication that I don't think frankly,

01:17:53.060 most people are capable of, but it's because we haven't given them the space or the tools

01:17:58.820 to do that over their lifetime.

01:18:00.200 And I think we're way better than the, at this as a society now than we were when you

01:18:04.880 and I were kids, right?

01:18:05.760 Like we're way better at, at trying to provide those tools to, to kids, but it comes with

01:18:11.320 them.

01:18:12.060 It, it, it comes with people being able to have those conversations to say, Hey, but

01:18:18.500 let's talk about what you're feeling right now.

01:18:20.360 Not in a, like necessarily a judgment or punishy way.

01:18:24.240 Like, Hey, you just got real mad.

01:18:26.040 You hit your brother.

01:18:27.640 Let's, let's have a conversation about that.

01:18:30.400 Let's talk about better ways to handle that.

01:18:32.580 Let's make sure we make up for what we did.

01:18:34.700 So it's not like it's consequence free.

01:18:36.080 People oftentimes accuse me of being sort of wimpy and like, Hey, you're, you're letting

01:18:40.240 your kids walk all over you.

01:18:41.580 They got to get punished or whatever.

01:18:43.140 That's, it's not that it's consequence free.

01:18:45.060 It's like, no, we're going to, we're going to deal with, with those, with those feelings

01:18:51.780 and try and figure out sort of the best way to handle it.

01:18:54.900 And yeah, that, that helps them develop that emotional resilience going forward.

01:18:59.180 Yeah.

01:18:59.420 At least having some emotional understanding of yourself.

01:19:01.980 Yep.

01:19:02.540 But how do you then like put the cap on it where you're like, yeah, it's okay.

01:19:06.340 If my kid is, you know, like, um, we're like, how do we not turn into one of these societies

01:19:11.900 where it's just like, Oh, I don't feel like going to work today.

01:19:14.500 So I'm not going to go.

01:19:15.520 Yeah.

01:19:15.900 You know, like that's nobody ever feels like, oh no, that's the first thing they should

01:19:19.720 tell you.

01:19:20.460 When you go, when you ever go to school, one day you're going to go to work and nobody's

01:19:24.060 going to feel like it.

01:19:24.980 That should be the first thing that they teach us.

01:19:26.860 Yeah.

01:19:27.100 No, I mean, it's true.

01:19:28.200 Like the message also has to be that your emotions alone aren't necessarily reason not

01:19:34.600 to do something.

01:19:35.820 You know, I mean, that's the, you know, I, I have a, I have two kids.

01:19:39.460 Um, both of them are, are very, very awesome in, in different ways.

01:19:43.420 Um, but the, you know, the one is he's, he's a performer, he's a dancer and he's in, um,

01:19:48.740 a lot of musicals and things like that.

01:19:50.280 And he, one of the things that I can say about him is people, people often talk about how brave

01:19:54.020 he is and he is, but I know him well enough to know that he, he gets real anxious about,

01:19:58.700 about performing and those things.

01:20:00.580 He's feeling that fear.

01:20:02.060 It's not that he's not scared.

01:20:04.020 It's that he knows how to do things anyways.

01:20:06.360 And that's where you want people to get, like you want people to get to a place.

01:20:09.460 The point of right now, you know what, I'm feeling sad and I don't feel like being able

01:20:13.400 to go, I don't feel like going to work, but I also need to do it.

01:20:16.300 And I understand what my responsibilities are and I can work through that.

01:20:19.840 Um, and, and I think like there's, there's something to be said for, I mean, to me, that's

01:20:26.100 a big part of what emotional resilience is.

01:20:28.060 It's being able to, to feel things and then overcome those feelings at times.

01:20:32.200 Right.

01:20:32.560 Yeah.

01:20:32.740 And I think if you give your kids space for that, it feels like you're going to, that

01:20:36.660 that's a armor you can create in them as well.

01:20:38.960 Yep.

01:20:39.160 It's like, Hey, you feel sad right now, or you feel a little disappointed.

01:20:42.420 This is how you can manage that right now.

01:20:44.520 And look, five minutes later, wow, look, we're right back to where we were before.

01:20:47.940 Everything's good.

01:20:48.640 So then when they have those things happen in their own lives, when you're not around,

01:20:52.740 they're going to have like some sort of, even if it's just brief little check-ins from

01:20:57.540 a parent are huge.

01:20:58.880 Well, you can, I mean, that's the thing.

01:21:00.020 I mean, and this isn't just about parenting.

01:21:01.580 This is about being a supervisor.

01:21:03.560 It's about being a human being.

01:21:05.340 You can be sensitive and have expectations.

01:21:08.620 Yeah.

01:21:09.320 Right.

01:21:09.560 You can, you can be sensitive to your, your kids' emotional needs and have things you

01:21:14.940 expect them to do.

01:21:15.860 You can be sensitive to your employees and have expectations of them.

01:21:19.680 Right.

01:21:19.900 You know, and, and frankly, you can be sensitive to yourself and you can be sort of patient

01:21:26.240 and caring with yourself and still have expectations for, for what you want to accomplish.

01:21:31.400 That's a tough one sometimes.

01:21:32.620 Yeah.

01:21:33.020 Giving yourself some grace.

01:21:34.420 Mm-hmm.

01:21:35.520 I'm terrible at it.

01:21:36.520 Are you?

01:21:37.020 Yeah, I am.

01:21:37.560 Yeah.

01:21:37.740 I'm really hard on myself.

01:21:38.660 Yeah, me too, man.

01:21:39.480 Yeah.

01:21:40.100 God.

01:21:41.000 That, that probably back, remember when we were talking about type A at the beginning,

01:21:43.960 right?

01:21:44.220 That's probably part of it, right?

01:21:45.520 It's like you, you're, you know, you're competitive, you're success driven, and, and

01:21:49.760 that means you, you, you want to accomplish certain things and that means being a certain

01:21:54.180 way.

01:21:55.340 Yeah.

01:21:56.260 Yeah.

01:21:56.680 It's interesting because I don't know when I would ever give myself the benefit of the

01:21:59.620 doubt very often, you know, I almost have to have someone say, Hey man, give yourself

01:22:03.660 some grace here.

01:22:04.820 Right.

01:22:05.240 You know, like in, like feel some pride, you know, I think, uh, and then sometimes I don't

01:22:12.040 blame this on my being a kid or whatever, but I think I never knew.

01:22:15.960 I never knew any, nobody, like I never knew what I was feeling or what was going on.

01:22:20.720 So I think even things like that with your kid, like, Hey man, you can feel proud of yourself.

01:22:24.220 Like I know some of it sounds lame probably in some senses, but the cost of not doing

01:22:30.000 it with your kids, I think can be kind of immense because growing up, not knowing, like

01:22:37.020 having my own sense of what's okay for me leaves me at the whim of what other people

01:22:42.820 think is okay for me, you know, and that can just get kind of harrowing.

01:22:46.300 I'm not, you know, trying to like, woe is me.

01:22:49.200 That's not fully my story, but it can, I could see it being really risky for folks.

01:22:53.640 Yeah.

01:22:54.340 You know, for me, one of the things that's been really helpful is to surround myself

01:22:58.840 with really good people who, who care about me and that there are people who, who, you

01:23:05.440 know, when I'm being hard on myself, sometimes it's nice to have a friend who can sort of

01:23:09.260 step in and remind me like, Hey, you know, it's okay to, it's okay to, to not have things

01:23:13.720 happen exactly as you want them.

01:23:15.580 It's okay to, to take a break and just be proud of what you accomplished today.

01:23:19.760 And it's nice to have people in your life who, who can support you that way.

01:23:25.320 Yeah.

01:23:25.880 So.

01:23:26.520 Yeah.

01:23:26.880 It feels like we always have to be making something better these days too.

01:23:30.020 Yeah.

01:23:30.220 Like that and every, it'd be like, if you, if you knew somebody and something was wrong

01:23:34.680 with them, people would just be like, dang, something's wrong with him.

01:23:37.380 Yep.

01:23:37.820 You know?

01:23:38.200 And then 10 years later, people would be like, dang, how's Ernie?

01:23:41.060 And then people like, something is wrong with him.

01:23:44.080 Like it had escalated, you know, like he bought an empty swimming pool and he was spending

01:23:48.540 time in there.

01:23:49.860 And so, but now it's like, is that a real story?

01:23:53.060 Is there a real person, you know, who bought an empty swimming pool?

01:23:55.560 And there was some men in our neighborhood that would kind of like meet up or whatever

01:23:59.760 in like this empty swimming pool at night and smoke weed or whatever.

01:24:02.820 Whenever I hear you drop an example like that, part of me was like, did that just come from

01:24:06.260 his brain or is that like a real thing?

01:24:08.200 Oh no, that was a real thing.

01:24:09.740 Dude, we grew up in a very shirtless area, if you will.

01:24:13.240 It was very, a lot of people just, a lot of people whistling and no shirt.

01:24:19.400 Just a lot of people doing their best.

01:24:23.220 That was a good description.

01:24:24.160 I like that.

01:24:24.760 I can imagine what this area was like.

01:24:27.740 We grew up in the stray animal belt, brother.

01:24:29.720 So there was just a lot of shirtless people.

01:24:32.760 Shirtless people and no collars on these animals either.

01:24:35.380 You know what I'm saying?

01:24:35.900 Everybody was just risking it all.

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01:25:07.860 Um, can, uh, can we still have childhood anger as adults?

01:25:13.700 Like what happens to anger from our childhood that isn't processed or what happens to unprocessed

01:25:18.660 anger?

01:25:19.640 Yeah.

01:25:20.040 You know, I think two things are, can, can be true here, right?

01:25:23.200 I think on the one hand, yeah, we can absolutely still have, you know, anger and resentment and

01:25:29.320 stuff that happened when we were a kid that we continue to be mad about forever.

01:25:33.620 I also think that it's sort of never too late to process some of that stuff, right?

01:25:38.960 I mean, you know, and that, that there's no reason why in your forties or fifties, you

01:25:43.740 can't start to deal with some of the stuff that you're, you were mad about, um, still from

01:25:50.400 childhood.

01:25:50.940 It might be harder.

01:25:51.960 And I also think we have to be honest about what the, what the outcome is going to be,

01:25:57.180 right?

01:25:57.540 And I mean, I mean, we have to recognize that some of those things, uh, I guess think

01:26:02.000 about what dealing with it looks like, because I can't, it's a good point.

01:26:05.300 You brought it up earlier with the other topic is like follow, think it, um, what outcome

01:26:09.820 you want to have.

01:26:10.620 What was the other one?

01:26:11.320 Yeah, no, it's like, what are your goals here?

01:26:13.000 And, and I think the thing is like, you know, when you're, when you're, I'm 48 years old,

01:26:17.200 right?

01:26:17.360 When you're 48, you might not, you might not be able to make, to fix the bad stuff that happen

01:26:24.040 that you're still frustrated by.

01:26:25.720 So that can't be the goal, but maybe it is to forgive.

01:26:30.080 Maybe it's to, um, better understand where, if it is a person who wronged you, where that

01:26:36.020 person was coming from.

01:26:37.300 I mean, those are all, um, things that we can try and process ways we can try and deal

01:26:43.320 with.

01:26:43.560 Maybe it's just to forgive ourselves for, for, you know, not handling it in a different

01:26:49.000 way.

01:26:50.060 Man, forgive ourselves for not being able to forgive people even.

01:26:53.540 That sounds crazy.

01:26:54.780 Right.

01:26:55.720 Right.

01:26:56.220 Cause that sometimes it's like, ah, it's crazy.

01:26:59.540 I never thought about that.

01:27:00.280 Sometimes it's not even that I'm upset anymore as much that I can't forgive the person.

01:27:05.900 It's like, I start to get upset at myself cause I can't forgive the person.

01:27:11.060 So I'm not upset at the person anymore.

01:27:12.560 Right.

01:27:13.000 I'm just upset at me cause I'm having trouble forgiving.

01:27:15.160 Is that crazy?

01:27:15.880 Yeah.

01:27:16.260 No, that, I mean, not crazy.

01:27:17.540 That, that's really interesting and insightful.

01:27:19.420 Right.

01:27:19.680 I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm still mad at this person.

01:27:22.380 I feel like I shouldn't be, and I'm struggling.

01:27:25.080 Now I'm mad at me cause I can't forgive them.

01:27:27.220 Yeah.

01:27:27.600 Okay.

01:27:27.940 Yeah.

01:27:28.240 Yeah.

01:27:28.800 I mean, yeah, sometimes that, yeah, I would just notice it can hop from one thing, a thing

01:27:34.260 like that and I don't even know exactly what I'm mad about, you know?

01:27:38.020 That's what, you know, I was thinking about it earlier.

01:27:40.100 Like, so I was once a, um, I was once a really bad student.

01:27:44.400 Really?

01:27:44.660 Yeah.

01:27:45.080 I know that's surprising to people.

01:27:46.920 Yeah.

01:27:47.080 I really, really struggled in high school.

01:27:49.520 Um, and I actually failed out of my first university.

01:27:52.760 Um, and, um, I know it was, and, and a lot of it came, I mean, it came from a lot of

01:27:59.660 different places.

01:28:00.160 Like one of them was, um, uh, I, I, so I was a diehard soccer player, uh, and soccer

01:28:07.900 fan at the time.

01:28:08.680 And I had a hard time, like not being more interested in that than in school.

01:28:14.220 Okay.

01:28:14.540 So you just loved soccer so much.

01:28:15.720 Yep.

01:28:16.060 And same thing.

01:28:16.920 I, I drank too much my, my first year in college too.

01:28:20.620 That was, that was relevant.

01:28:22.420 Um, not in high school at all, but in college, that was a problem.

01:28:25.320 But also I just hadn't developed a lot of like the study skills necessary to, to be

01:28:29.440 successful.

01:28:30.260 And, um, and so I, I still like, I, I, years later, I still find myself sort of struggling

01:28:37.980 with that, like mad at myself for not having done better, mad at myself for not having made

01:28:42.540 more of, of my college experience.

01:28:45.200 Cause what happened is I, I took a, I took a break like six months off.

01:28:48.980 I traveled a little bit.

01:28:50.180 I was very, very fortunate that like I had a safety net, you know, it didn't mean I was

01:28:55.120 like homeless.

01:28:56.340 I could, right.

01:28:56.880 You could afford to go somewhere and travel.

01:28:58.400 Yep.

01:28:58.780 And I, and I had, I could live with my mom for a little while while I sort of figured

01:29:01.740 things out in ways that a lot of my students can't, you know?

01:29:04.780 And, and so, um, so, um, having that, um, I, I went back to college and I kind of got

01:29:12.960 it together right after taking a little break, but, but I'm, I'm mad at myself still for not

01:29:17.860 having a different kind of college experience, you know?

01:29:20.500 Wow.

01:29:21.700 Yeah, man.

01:29:22.260 That's funny.

01:29:22.720 I'll get upset at myself with like, yeah, that I didn't have a blast in college sometimes.

01:29:27.380 Like that's just this general term that's in my head, man, I'm upset that I didn't have

01:29:31.080 a blast in college.

01:29:32.520 Yeah.

01:29:32.620 But if I went and looked through a calendar and shit, people would be like, dude, you

01:29:36.540 had a great time.

01:29:37.460 Right.

01:29:37.940 It's like, sometimes I don't even remember things correctly.

01:29:40.480 It's like my perspective of them isn't even clean and then are clear.

01:29:44.740 And then I'll get upset at a unreal.

01:29:47.740 And then I'll be like, fuck man, I got a fucking, or I'll be like, dang, man, I got to enroll

01:29:52.460 somewhere.

01:29:53.120 Yep.

01:29:53.440 Yep.

01:29:53.700 You know, I could still be a mascot.

01:29:54.940 I can't play, but I could still be a mascot, you know, you just start going.

01:29:58.920 And then it's like, I'm in this weird anger against myself and it's maybe the perspective

01:30:02.020 wasn't clear, you know, or yeah.

01:30:04.740 Well, a lot of times our, our emotions, uh, our memories of emotional experiences aren't accurate.

01:30:10.980 Dude, why?

01:30:11.940 And so, I mean, part of it is that we hit the highlights or the low lights, right?

01:30:16.220 And so like, if you think about a, uh, and actually somebody did a study on this, um,

01:30:20.380 where they had people monitor their emotions over the course of a week long vacation.

01:30:25.300 And then when they came back, they took a survey.

01:30:27.820 How did, did you enjoy the vacation?

01:30:29.580 Right.

01:30:30.160 And what they found is that there was very little correlation between those two things,

01:30:34.180 because when people are, are at the end of a trip, when they're saying, how did you

01:30:39.260 feel?

01:30:39.600 Well, they're reflecting on the high points or the low points, right?

01:30:42.620 And they're just thinking, and like the overall experience was super rad.

01:30:45.760 I was in Jamaica.

01:30:46.700 It was great.

01:30:47.260 I loved it.

01:30:48.080 What they forget is, you know, how long it took to get their luggage.

01:30:52.000 Um, what they forget, like getting stuck in traffic for hours and hours and hours.

01:30:56.180 Bugs or whatever.

01:30:56.980 All that stuff.

01:30:58.220 And so.

01:30:58.760 Violence or whatever.

01:30:59.240 Yep.

01:30:59.600 And so they, they forget all that stuff and they just focus on those other things or the,

01:31:03.700 and I think the same thing could be true of college, right?

01:31:05.520 It's like you, you, you, you think about sort of the high points or the low points.

01:31:09.740 You don't think about the, like, you know, the other sort of, of elements, the things

01:31:15.760 that happen, the day in and day out stuff.

01:31:17.660 Yeah.

01:31:18.140 And, um, or, or sort of, we think about like an overall theme of what it was like instead

01:31:23.720 of, instead of, um, you know, those, those day in and day out experiences.

01:31:28.520 Yeah, I think it's called chunking or something.

01:31:30.820 I'm not sure how our, why our brain, our memory does that.

01:31:33.840 I've been reading this book, um, by this guy, Dr. Sangarath, but it's about our memories

01:31:39.960 and stuff.

01:31:40.400 It's really, it's pretty interesting.

01:31:42.180 Yeah.

01:31:42.700 Um, dude, sometimes when it comes to my anger and stuff, I will even like, like, I think

01:31:49.760 I remember being so angry sometimes as a kid.

01:31:51.440 I almost, like, I enjoy my anger in a way because it's like, I had such a relationship

01:31:58.960 with it.

01:31:59.880 I don't know if that sounds crazy or not.

01:32:01.840 No, it doesn't.

01:32:03.060 I mean, I think there are people.

01:32:03.620 Like, I don't enjoy it as in I want to like act it out or something or vandalize a shelter

01:32:07.840 or whatever.

01:32:08.860 But like, that I want to, like, if I, there's a part of me still that when I get angry, it

01:32:14.700 connects to that kid part of me that was angry.

01:32:17.080 And it's like, this is, it's ours, you know?

01:32:19.400 Right.

01:32:19.960 Well, I think all of us, like, you know, we've been talking about anger as an emotion and

01:32:23.720 it is, but it's also sometimes a personality trait, right?

01:32:26.620 It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a characteristic.

01:32:29.400 Like some, there are some people who are just angrier than others or some people express

01:32:33.260 their anger more outwardly or experience more consequences.

01:32:36.140 And, and because of that, um, you know, and I think with any personality trait, sometimes

01:32:42.200 as human beings, we, we cling to things that we sort of like as defining characteristics,

01:32:48.780 right?

01:32:49.400 And so like, and we, we, we cling to those as things that like make us proud of ourselves

01:32:54.720 or that we enjoy or whatever.

01:32:56.640 Um, so maybe a person says, well, Hey, like I'm, I'm kind.

01:32:59.900 That's, that's, that's just who I am.

01:33:01.920 And I lean into that.

01:33:03.380 Um, maybe someone leans into the idea that they're an angry person and that it's, you

01:33:08.120 know, that's kind of how they identify.

01:33:09.960 I think that's true, especially because so in this, I'm not advocating for this, but anger

01:33:15.240 is how a lot of successful people get things done right now.

01:33:19.060 Do you ever watch the show Entourage?

01:33:20.680 Yeah.

01:33:21.180 Okay.

01:33:21.460 So, uh, Ari Gold, that, that character, you know, that's rooted in a real life person.

01:33:26.060 Um, and he, who I think had, um, like used those kinds of, of, um, tactics and used angry,

01:33:35.420 aggressive approach to, to manipulate people and to, um, to get people to do what he, what

01:33:41.240 he wanted.

01:33:41.940 Right.

01:33:42.300 And so like, that's someone who I think, um, probably like appreciates that he identifies

01:33:47.760 as an angry person.

01:33:49.080 Right.

01:33:49.600 You know, he appreciates that he identifies that way.

01:33:52.360 Yeah.

01:33:52.580 I mean, I think it's like, this is just part of who I am and it's part of what makes me

01:33:55.860 successful.

01:33:56.580 Oh, I see.

01:33:57.240 But then is that just a cop out of somebody that doesn't want to deal with their anger

01:34:00.060 though?

01:34:00.580 Probably.

01:34:01.100 I mean, I think for a lot of people, that's, that's them.

01:34:03.540 Uh, it's, uh, I think they're scared to change.

01:34:06.480 It's like, I mean, if this is the thing that I've identified as making me successful,

01:34:10.600 well then dealing with it might mean that I'm no longer going to be successful, going

01:34:14.680 to be good at what I do.

01:34:16.400 Can, um, but if it's a trait then, so it can be a real thing that some people are just

01:34:21.520 are.

01:34:23.640 Yeah.

01:34:24.120 I mean, it, I think like any trait, like without any provocation, like without any.

01:34:28.480 Yeah.

01:34:28.800 There, I think there's still provocations.

01:34:30.400 I just think that they're quick.

01:34:31.640 It doesn't take as much.

01:34:33.140 Right.

01:34:33.320 And so it doesn't take as much of a provocation to make someone mad.

01:34:37.280 Okay.

01:34:37.320 Um, and it's still, I mean, it, it, it still comes from a combination of upbringing, probably

01:34:43.240 some genetics, you know, that people are more likely to be angry, uh, much of the time.

01:34:49.520 Um, you know, and, and so it, it still comes from, from that place.

01:34:54.940 What are parenting strategies to assist kids with coping with anger?

01:35:00.120 Yeah.

01:35:00.420 Like, um, like, like not feeling anger very often or yeah.

01:35:08.900 Like what are some of those?

01:35:10.040 Do you feel like?

01:35:11.080 Yeah.

01:35:11.480 I mean, I think for what I would say is there's, there's, when it comes to, to kids, one of

01:35:19.080 the, probably the most important things to do is, is help them develop the tools that

01:35:22.740 allow them to sort of find ways to decrease their anger in the moment.

01:35:26.580 Right.

01:35:26.940 And that's oftentimes for kids going to be deep breathing.

01:35:30.380 It's going to be distraction is actually a really good one.

01:35:33.500 So find something else you can do for a little while.

01:35:35.580 Maybe it's, we talked about drawing earlier.

01:35:37.560 Maybe it's playing with Legos.

01:35:38.700 Maybe it's petting your dog, whatever, things like that, that, that allow you to, to sort

01:35:43.340 of deescalate.

01:35:44.340 Yeah.

01:35:44.780 Um, the other side of it is, you know, helping kids identify where they have some control.

01:35:49.880 And this is harder with kids because I think they have a little less control in their,

01:35:52.700 their day-to-day life.

01:35:53.660 Where can kids have control in their, um, uh, surroundings and their environment?

01:36:02.040 How can they sort of do less of the things that, um, that provoke, uh, that might provoke

01:36:09.460 anger, right?

01:36:10.160 I, my, my son is a, my other son is a diehard basketball fan.

01:36:14.640 Um, and he's, he's a player and fan.

01:36:16.940 And so we've been watching the NBA quite a bit.

01:36:19.240 Um, I'm from Minnesota originally.

01:36:21.140 So.

01:36:21.380 Okay.

01:36:21.480 So you guys are in, huh?

01:36:22.380 Yeah.

01:36:22.640 So we're, we're Timberwolves fans, but you know, and he handles, you know, they, they

01:36:27.420 won last night.

01:36:28.060 That was great.

01:36:28.660 Uh, but they've been, um, you know, they're, they're down a couple games.

01:36:31.940 Yeah.

01:36:32.420 Yeah.

01:36:32.860 And he, he handles it well, but you know, it, it takes a toll on him.

01:36:35.980 Like he gets sad and he's 12 years old.

01:36:37.600 He gets sad when they, uh, when they lose.

01:36:40.100 And so that's the kind of thing that like over time, you know, you want to think about what

01:36:44.880 kind of impact that's having.

01:36:46.060 You want to think about how much it's influencing you.

01:36:48.120 You want to think about whether or not you, it's good for you.

01:36:51.460 As a parent, you mean?

01:36:51.860 Yeah.

01:36:52.220 Like a kid doing something, if it's something that like what they're engaged, what they're

01:36:55.840 absorbing, you mean?

01:36:56.720 Yeah.

01:36:57.040 I mean, as a parent, you want, you want them to be thinking about how much time they're

01:37:01.920 spending.

01:37:02.660 And this thing that ends up having, taking an emotional toll on them.

01:37:06.560 Yeah.

01:37:06.840 Is it good to let your children feel anger?

01:37:09.020 Is it?

01:37:09.700 I think so.

01:37:10.220 I mean, I think like anything, I mean, up to, up to a point, you know, I think it's

01:37:13.700 good to let them, because that's how they're going to deal with the, I mean, I think the

01:37:19.040 art of dealing with emotions is, is it's, I liken it to exercise.

01:37:23.880 I saw a poster years working out the other day, right?

01:37:27.700 You were on a run or something like that.

01:37:28.760 Oh yeah.

01:37:29.120 Yeah.

01:37:29.300 I like to run.

01:37:30.120 Yeah.

01:37:30.400 Me too.

01:37:30.900 Every day.

01:37:31.640 You do?

01:37:32.100 I do.

01:37:32.500 Yeah.

01:37:32.580 Oh wow.

01:37:33.320 I think it's great.

01:37:34.320 Great for my mental health.

01:37:35.400 Great for, for everything.

01:37:37.060 But it, the thing about, I think it's similar, dealing with emotions is similar to exercise

01:37:43.780 in that, you know, when you exercise, you push yourself to a place of discomfort.

01:37:48.740 Okay.

01:37:49.060 But never so uncomfortable that it's actually harmful, right?

01:37:52.200 And I think you can do the same thing with emotions.

01:37:54.080 You can push yourself into a zone where this emotion is uncomfortable with me, for me, but

01:38:00.040 it's not so uncomfortable that I'm suffering, right?

01:38:03.720 And so it's like, I want to feel some fear because I want to get used to dealing with

01:38:08.580 that discomfort and I want to sort of learn to cope with it.

01:38:12.600 But I don't want to feel so much fear that I'm like on the floor shaking or anything like

01:38:17.360 that.

01:38:17.640 Yeah.

01:38:17.920 And with kids, I want them to feel, I want them to feel some anxiety and learn that they

01:38:22.960 can just do the thing anyways.

01:38:24.480 Yeah.

01:38:24.620 I want them to feel some fear, some anger and learn that they can do the thing anyways

01:38:28.960 and work through it.

01:38:30.740 That's a good, healthy way to be.

01:38:32.800 Yeah.

01:38:33.260 It's just interesting when you think about like, that it's a parent's responsibility to

01:38:37.160 do all of that.

01:38:38.160 Right.

01:38:38.440 You know, like how many little things that they learn because of how the parents let them

01:38:42.960 absorb it or what?

01:38:44.580 I think one of the challenges is I imagine that, you know, you know, our parents, our

01:38:50.440 parents' age didn't, it wasn't on their radar to be thinking about stuff like this.

01:38:57.880 No.

01:38:58.300 You know, that they just didn't know.

01:38:59.940 And so they weren't necessarily attuned to like what kids might need or benefit from

01:39:06.800 an emotional perspective.

01:39:08.460 Yeah.

01:39:08.800 It was a different time.

01:39:09.720 Um, another thing that really I'll get angry is, um, if I expect people to, it's kind of

01:39:16.540 unrealistic expectations, but it's, uh, thinking people should know what I want, even if I haven't

01:39:21.760 explained it.

01:39:22.620 Yeah.

01:39:23.240 It's, there's a name for this and it's escaping me right now, but there is that sort of like,

01:39:27.120 uh, it's like the opposite of mind reading.

01:39:30.080 It's like, they should be able to read your mind.

01:39:31.740 Right.

01:39:32.180 And know exactly.

01:39:33.780 Yeah.

01:39:34.180 And so it's like, Hey, I, why don't they know exactly the way I want this thing done?

01:39:39.560 And then why aren't they doing it that way?

01:39:41.340 Yeah.

01:39:41.840 And, and for people who are ambitious and people who, you know, are success driven, then

01:39:47.840 that becomes a, a sticking point.

01:39:50.320 It's part of that type A thing that I mentioned before, right?

01:39:53.000 It becomes a sticking point, leads to that, that frustration.

01:39:57.260 Um, you know, why, why isn't it happening the way I want it to?

01:40:00.440 What other personality types and what types of angers do they have?

01:40:02.960 Do they have all of specific angers or not really?

01:40:05.460 You just find that type A has more.

01:40:07.380 Yeah.

01:40:07.480 I mean, type A is, I mean, originally part of how it was sort of identified was that

01:40:12.360 it was that, that people with type A, with that behavior pattern, they called it at the

01:40:17.400 time, they were, um, that they were angrier, more aggressive.

01:40:23.000 Yeah.

01:40:23.020 Cause one of the things you mentioned was goals being blocked.

01:40:24.660 And I guess if you have, if you're driven like that or have that extra like drive, which

01:40:30.260 can be a blessing and a curse sometimes, then you would have more goals just even generally

01:40:34.840 floating around in your head.

01:40:35.920 Yeah.

01:40:36.680 Another strategy, not the, not like the, the disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, but

01:40:41.740 sort of an obsessive compulsive personality type is also associated with anger for similar

01:40:47.340 reasons.

01:40:47.640 It's like, I want things the way I want them.

01:40:50.240 And because I want them this way, when other people don't live up to that expectation, it

01:40:54.540 makes me mad.

01:40:55.360 Right.

01:40:55.760 You know, I want my home a certain way.

01:40:57.560 And if people don't set it up that way, if they don't, if they won't, um, do the things

01:41:03.060 I want, I get angry or, um, yeah.

01:41:05.760 And so it's like, I, you know, people who are really kind of rule driven or have want

01:41:12.420 things in a specific way are just more likely to, to, to get angry.

01:41:17.140 That's why, you know, if we, we think about, um, some of those, what we call the big five

01:41:21.460 personality traits, one of them, like people who are a little bit more open, a little bit

01:41:25.860 more flexible are less likely to, to experience anger.

01:41:29.580 Gosh.

01:41:30.240 Yeah.

01:41:31.120 Gosh, those people are good.

01:41:32.220 I would, I almost feel like I would drink their blood.

01:41:34.980 Is that crazy to say that?

01:41:36.040 Because I just, that's, I'll just, I wish I could have some more of that.

01:41:40.720 Yeah.

01:41:41.060 No, I get it.

01:41:41.740 I mean, it's, yeah.

01:41:42.760 I mean, that, that's the thing we know is that I think there's a real drive right now

01:41:46.340 in, in sort of modern sort of pop psychology to be really accepting of all personality traits.

01:41:52.380 And, and I think, I mean, I get why we should be accepting and be supportive, but I think

01:41:56.020 we should also acknowledge that there are some ways of being that might end up being a little

01:41:59.560 healthier than, than other ways.

01:42:01.160 Right.

01:42:01.380 And, and openness is a, is a great quality.

01:42:04.600 Right.

01:42:05.040 And conscientiousness is a great quality.

01:42:07.560 Those things, agreeableness, right.

01:42:09.380 Those things are, are, are the kinds of things that, that help people be successful in, in

01:42:14.160 a lot of ways and help them be likable and help them be happy.

01:42:17.840 What about in relationships?

01:42:19.720 Do you guys talk about a lot about that?

01:42:21.460 Like, how do you deal with a, if you have a spouse that you feel like has some anger issues?

01:42:27.760 Yeah.

01:42:27.920 It, that is really tough, especially because anger issues in families can look lots of

01:42:33.400 different ways, right?

01:42:34.100 Because there's the, there's the kind that is really scary and potentially like bordering

01:42:39.180 on abuse where the anger is driven at the particular person, right?

01:42:43.740 It's the, the angry husband yelling at the angry wife or vice versa.

01:42:47.740 Right.

01:42:48.740 And, and that's one way it can look.

01:42:50.700 The other way is just, um, a person who's just angry at the world doesn't necessarily

01:42:56.820 take it out on the family.

01:42:58.260 Um, and that's actually the way my dad was.

01:42:59.880 Like he was an angry guy, but he didn't, I, I can count on one hand the number of times

01:43:05.000 he yelled at me.

01:43:06.140 It, I wasn't the, the victim.

01:43:08.080 Um, it was usually the waiter or the gas station attendant or some other driver, you know?

01:43:13.720 And so, um, those, but that still has consequences, right?

01:43:19.100 It still scared me as a kid, right?

01:43:20.860 I mean, yeah, it would have scared me if he were yelling at me, but it also scared me

01:43:25.020 when he's yelling at a stranger.

01:43:26.400 And, you know, those, those moments, um, can really sort of take a toll.

01:43:32.820 I mean, I think, you know, relationships are obviously tricky.

01:43:36.640 I think a lot of times with, with relationships, it's gotta be about communication.

01:43:41.880 It's gotta be about like a person being willing to do the work to try and change.

01:43:47.340 Yeah.

01:43:47.440 And what kind of help do people need that are, that have severe anger problems?

01:43:52.080 That's the thing.

01:43:52.760 Um, I think it's, you know, there are lots of things that people can do on their own

01:43:57.420 without a professional, but ultimately when the, when the situation is bad enough, people

01:44:03.360 need to, to talk to a therapist, right?

01:44:05.900 And how do they recognize when it's bad enough?

01:44:07.380 Do you think?

01:44:07.780 Sorry, I keep stacking questions on.

01:44:09.260 No, that's all right.

01:44:10.200 Those are great questions.

01:44:10.980 I mean, I mean, I think usually it should be driven by the, the consequences.

01:44:15.520 And, and to me, for me, if a partner came to me and said, Hey, your anger is making

01:44:22.200 me uncomfortable, your anger scaring me, or it's making like, to me, that's enough for

01:44:26.840 me to want to say, okay, I got to do something about it.

01:44:29.240 And if I can't on my own, well, then I'm going to go get some help, get some help somehow.

01:44:34.500 Yeah.

01:44:34.740 Um, if it's not in a relationship, if it's, if it's just, you know, I'm, I'm, I find myself

01:44:42.040 getting so angry, I'm like uncomfortable with it, or I don't like living with myself or it,

01:44:48.380 I'm, I'm, you know, drinking too much or whatever as a way of coping with it.

01:44:52.020 Well, then those are all ways that I can, those are all signs that I need to meet with

01:44:56.240 someone if I can't fix it on my own.

01:44:57.900 Yeah.

01:44:59.180 Yeah.

01:44:59.580 Cause most of my anger usually just comes out about work stuff, right.

01:45:02.480 You know, in personal and regular life, I'm usually pretty chill.

01:45:05.940 Yeah.

01:45:06.440 But yeah, I think when it comes to work and wanting to get things done, yeah.

01:45:11.000 And wanting to be like efficient or yeah.

01:45:14.880 A lot of just unrealistic expectations.

01:45:17.520 Well, it sounds like it's motivated, like that there's an undercurrent of stress there,

01:45:21.780 right?

01:45:22.100 There's an undercurrent of like, Hey, if, if I don't, if I don't meet these expectations,

01:45:27.320 if I don't accomplish these things, something bad's going to happen.

01:45:30.200 Right.

01:45:30.620 And so I'm, I'm, I'm anxious because I have these goals or I'm stressed because I have

01:45:35.640 these goals and I get mad when things get in the way of them.

01:45:38.920 Yeah.

01:45:39.420 Yeah.

01:45:40.120 Yeah.

01:45:40.520 I think sometimes the motivation, it's like, I think sometimes they come from an unrealistic

01:45:43.960 space overall because sometimes I think I just have unrealistic expectations of myself,

01:45:49.020 right?

01:45:49.360 So that I'll never be able to achieve them.

01:45:52.280 So I'll always be at a loss.

01:45:54.160 Right.

01:45:54.520 And so then it'll couple with some, some like core belief I've always had that I'm

01:46:00.400 not enough.

01:46:00.940 Right.

01:46:01.160 That's sort of, right.

01:46:02.280 To me, that's how I've been able to kind of see that what some of that makeup is like.

01:46:06.500 And I'm not trying to look at it as like a woe is me.

01:46:08.240 I'm just looking at it.

01:46:09.200 Yeah, no, that, that's great.

01:46:10.460 And I would, I bet, I don't know this, but, but tell me, you know, I bet sometimes those

01:46:16.180 unreasonable expectations, the way that they matter, like boots on the ground in a particular

01:46:20.460 week or day is that you end up planning too much or trying to do too much, you know?

01:46:25.860 And it's like, you know, you think to yourself, well, Hey, for me to achieve X, I've got to

01:46:30.900 get A, B, and C done this week.

01:46:33.060 And it's impossible to get A, B, and C done in a single week.

01:46:36.400 Yeah.

01:46:36.620 So, so you set yourself up for failure that way.

01:46:40.040 Oh yeah.

01:46:40.660 A lot of times I won't give things a lot of breathing room.

01:46:42.780 Right.

01:46:43.160 You know, and that kind of is a bummer.

01:46:44.680 I know sometimes you'll have a meeting with a friend and I'm like, Oh, I wish this meeting

01:46:47.200 could be another 45 minutes, but you know, I only set up a certain amount of time because

01:46:52.540 I'm too focused on the work aspect of it and not focused on like the human aspect of

01:46:56.640 it.

01:46:56.740 Yep.

01:46:57.220 Sometimes that happens.

01:46:58.360 I do, I do this all the time.

01:46:59.840 Like one of my, one of my, you know, I set goals for myself every, I do this every semester,

01:47:04.640 right?

01:47:04.800 I, I intentionally, I say, these are the things I want to do this semester, this year,

01:47:10.540 whatever.

01:47:11.140 And then what that translates into is, well, that means that this month I've got to get

01:47:15.140 X, Y, and Z done.

01:47:15.980 I got to do these things.

01:47:17.060 And then that means I, I overplan for a particular week or day, and then I get frustrated with

01:47:22.760 myself.

01:47:23.560 Yeah.

01:47:23.880 And then it connects back to that core belief that you're talking about of, well, I'm not

01:47:28.420 good enough.

01:47:29.100 Right.

01:47:29.640 All right.

01:47:29.900 I'll ruin everything.

01:47:31.000 Yep.

01:47:31.300 I can't do this.

01:47:32.480 What the F?

01:47:33.480 Yep.

01:47:33.680 You F, you loser.

01:47:35.800 Too often the solution to that is that we, instead of giving ourself grace and being

01:47:39.720 patient with ourselves and saying, Hey, we set impossible goals for ourself is we just

01:47:44.540 say, well, we just need to work harder.

01:47:46.000 Yeah.

01:47:46.660 Right.

01:47:47.200 And then we feel crappy when we don't achieve it.

01:47:50.600 Man, that's just a lot of my life is I just have to work harder.

01:47:53.660 Yeah.

01:47:54.540 I couldn't, yeah, it was tough sometimes to have fun.

01:47:56.540 I would tell my friends, I've said this before, but my friends are like, let's go do this

01:47:59.280 thing.

01:47:59.380 And I'm like, I can't go.

01:48:00.200 I have to write a book.

01:48:01.120 And that's where my mind always was.

01:48:04.320 Kind of, it was like, you can't go do that.

01:48:07.080 Yep.

01:48:07.400 You have all this shit to do.

01:48:09.140 Yeah.

01:48:09.400 Don't you know you have all this shit to do?

01:48:11.060 And I would never even look at exactly what the stuff was.

01:48:13.860 It was just this gin.

01:48:15.400 And I didn't realize that's a recent, like, well, what shit do I have to do?

01:48:18.120 Like, I never even, I just assumed I had to do all these things.

01:48:21.840 It was like this to-do list that was something was always being added on to.

01:48:26.180 Yeah.

01:48:26.560 And sometimes it was like the worst part of my brain was, was just going to add things

01:48:29.640 on there no matter what.

01:48:30.720 Like, unrealistic things.

01:48:32.560 Yep.

01:48:32.760 Like, look better.

01:48:34.180 Right.

01:48:35.120 Like, all right.

01:48:36.240 Yeah.

01:48:36.420 By 8 p.m. or whatever, you're like, this is, we can't do, you know, just like, or just,

01:48:41.040 you know, you should be different.

01:48:42.600 Like, that's, but that would be like the kind of just like vague thing that would be

01:48:46.340 on this.

01:48:47.200 Yeah.

01:48:48.300 Well, yeah.

01:48:49.520 And then, and ultimately, you know, that to-do list never ends, right?

01:48:52.600 Yeah.

01:48:52.860 I mean, you just keep adding to it because there's always more you can do.

01:48:58.440 And so, I mean, that's the problem.

01:48:59.920 I mean, I've been, I've been thinking about this a lot lately with work is that part of

01:49:04.380 what happens is that we fill up the cracks, like we fill up all the time with just more

01:49:09.740 work.

01:49:10.140 And, and this is particularly true of ambitious people is that they say, well, I can just,

01:49:15.680 I can just keep going, right?

01:49:16.760 There's no end.

01:49:17.500 There's no end to the amount of work, um, that I can, that I can find to fill in.

01:49:21.500 And if I want to be successful in the ways I want to be successful, then that's what I've

01:49:24.640 got to do.

01:49:25.620 And then that's, that hurts, right?

01:49:27.820 It's, we suffer in the long run.

01:49:29.280 And it makes me think when you're talking about that, do we have like just such on,

01:49:32.480 like, how do we temper or how do we perspectivize our goals for success?

01:49:42.560 How do we look at, can you help me say what I'm trying to say?

01:49:45.960 Yeah.

01:49:46.100 Like when are, when is it enough?

01:49:47.940 Right.

01:49:48.300 I mean, like, and how can we even frame it for ourselves so that we're not just have this

01:49:51.600 blind thing?

01:49:52.700 Yeah.

01:49:52.980 Like you need to be successful.

01:49:54.640 Right.

01:49:55.000 So that it's actually specific and realistic and yeah.

01:49:58.380 And then when is enough?

01:49:59.480 Right.

01:50:00.020 Well, I mean, because in some way, I mean, you said before you like running, I don't know

01:50:03.360 if you do, if you do races, like if you've ever, if you ever run, you know, whatever.

01:50:08.720 Um, but I mean, it'd be like, I don't do races.

01:50:11.000 I would do them.

01:50:12.120 Okay.

01:50:12.480 But I don't do them yet.

01:50:13.580 But it's like, it's like if you, if every race you did, the finish line just kept moving.

01:50:18.760 Yeah.

01:50:18.980 Right.

01:50:19.140 Because we move it on ourselves, um, and, and, and we don't accept that like we've accomplished

01:50:25.280 a thing.

01:50:25.880 I do.

01:50:26.620 I mean, one of the, one of the things I do to sort of keep myself happy, even though I

01:50:31.080 have this, this personality style too, right.

01:50:34.260 Where I'm just constantly adding to do's.

01:50:36.400 One of the ways I keep myself happy is by, by really marking those achievements.

01:50:41.680 Like when I've finished a thing, I treat it like an accomplishment.

01:50:46.640 I don't just add to it.

01:50:47.900 I stop and I say, we did a thing.

01:50:49.820 Like, let's be, be happy about that.

01:50:52.220 Let's be excited.

01:50:53.460 Now we can, we can take a day before we move on to the next thing.

01:50:57.320 Um, so the next thing is still going to be there for me.

01:50:59.620 And, and I admit, I think there's something about me that I, I need that next thing.

01:51:05.040 I don't know what I do.

01:51:06.440 Like, I, you know, if you want to get to the root of like what scares me most, it's retirement.

01:51:11.680 Right.

01:51:11.840 Really?

01:51:12.360 Oh yeah.

01:51:12.880 I don't.

01:51:13.720 Retirement in the sense of having too much time then?

01:51:16.500 Retirement or retirement in the sense of just not having like a specific goal.

01:51:20.640 Maybe it's that, I don't know what my brain would do.

01:51:23.280 I don't know how it would operate without a thing, without a thing to think about or like

01:51:28.980 without work to think about.

01:51:30.200 I don't know what it would.

01:51:31.000 Yeah, we got to find out, don't we?

01:51:33.160 Yeah.

01:51:33.780 Yeah, dude, we got to just, just, just torch your calendar and get a little weird.

01:51:38.480 I feel like you get a, you know what I'm saying?

01:51:40.220 Like, who knows?

01:51:40.740 Get a little weird.

01:51:41.800 I mean, or, you know, just to see what God wants, but it's like, yeah.

01:51:46.640 Oh, I can't imagine, dude, if somebody said, you can't do that.

01:51:50.980 Like, you can't work tomorrow.

01:51:52.820 Yeah.

01:51:53.020 I literally, something would crawl out of me and go like this.

01:51:58.160 Yep.

01:51:58.900 No, I have, I've been, we got furlough days this, this year.

01:52:03.760 Do you know, you know what a furlough is?

01:52:05.020 Like for disease or something?

01:52:06.480 No, we, we, we had some, we had to take unpaid days, like forced to take unpaid days to save

01:52:14.020 the university money.

01:52:15.180 And, and we're literally not allowed.

01:52:17.360 We're going to do that.

01:52:18.360 Yeah.

01:52:18.640 Just letting everybody know, right now, Dr. Ryan Martin is brought in.

01:52:24.380 Yep.

01:52:25.400 Yeah.

01:52:26.220 So we're literally not allowed to work.

01:52:28.180 Right.

01:52:28.620 And, and so, um, and, and I have, I mean, I shouldn't say this cause I'll get in trouble,

01:52:35.080 but I've been working on those days.

01:52:37.860 I just, I just don't use my computer cause I'm not allowed to because I'm just like on

01:52:41.480 my phone, like doing stuff.

01:52:45.760 I'm on a different computer, just still working.

01:52:47.520 So, yeah.

01:52:49.060 I've worked sometimes to keep me away from having to deal with my own personal life.

01:52:52.940 I think sometimes.

01:52:53.820 Okay.

01:52:54.280 Do people do that?

01:52:55.080 Oh yeah, absolutely.

01:52:56.160 I mean, that's a, that's a real distraction for, I mean, that, that's part of, part of

01:53:01.960 what happens is.

01:53:02.900 Yeah.

01:53:03.480 Yeah.

01:53:03.800 Cause I think it's feels manageable.

01:53:05.100 You know, it just feels like I can control what's going to happen, you know?

01:53:08.360 Yeah, absolutely.

01:53:09.920 I get that.

01:53:11.540 But that's okay.

01:53:12.820 That doesn't mean necessarily a bad thing.

01:53:14.840 No, I don't think so either.

01:53:15.800 I mean, I, I think like there are lots of things in people's lives that can be fulfilling

01:53:21.560 and, and yeah, personal relationships are absolutely one of those things.

01:53:25.840 And it's, it's, people should, they're good for us in a gajillion different ways, but people

01:53:30.580 can be fulfilled by their work.

01:53:33.220 Um, especially, I mean, I, you know, especially when, when they identify ways that their work

01:53:39.100 is really meaningful, um, and not just to them, but to the world around them.

01:53:44.280 And if they can see that and then, yeah, it's really fulfilling to, to, to do that work.

01:53:49.240 I think what, what would make me sad is if I like hit a point where I thought, you know,

01:53:55.600 Hey, I've been doing all of this and none of it really mattered.

01:53:58.980 Right.

01:53:59.540 To you.

01:54:00.060 Yeah.

01:54:00.400 Or to, or to people in the world.

01:54:01.900 Right.

01:54:02.200 Like it all sort of went away.

01:54:04.040 I, I don't, I don't think that's true of the job I do.

01:54:07.900 I don't think it's true of the job you do.

01:54:09.140 I think it matters to, to people and, um, and it, and it matters to me, but, um, but it

01:54:14.860 would be, you know, for someone whose job was to do whatever.

01:54:18.220 Yeah.

01:54:18.800 You know, I can see that happening.

01:54:20.320 I could see, especially like as we get more technologically advanced and we take away jobs,

01:54:25.740 you know, um, that people start to lose their purpose.

01:54:30.560 You have to have some purpose.

01:54:32.300 Or you're just, you won't have any, you won't care about yourself or anything.

01:54:36.440 You, you, everything has to have a purpose.

01:54:38.640 Yep.

01:54:39.040 And then, and then for people it's about, well, where do they find that?

01:54:41.820 Right.

01:54:42.040 Because maybe it's not work and it's okay if it's not work.

01:54:44.580 Right.

01:54:44.820 It could be, it could be your hobbies.

01:54:47.180 It could be your family.

01:54:48.060 It could be seeing the world.

01:54:49.180 It could be a billion things.

01:54:51.240 Yeah.

01:54:51.720 Yeah.

01:54:51.940 Yeah.

01:54:52.280 I do think though that sometimes with like, like, like I wish there was just something

01:54:56.780 that was like, Hey, no more technology.

01:54:58.740 Yep.

01:54:59.320 Yeah.

01:55:00.420 Yeah.

01:55:00.720 You know, like we're, we're doing fine.

01:55:03.340 We don't need like a robot sheriff and six Uber drivers hiding from him all, you know,

01:55:09.340 like, like, and everything, you know, it's like, that's what it just, yeah, I don't

01:55:14.540 know.

01:55:15.080 I think about that sometimes.

01:55:16.220 Like why we wouldn't stop technology because it doesn't feel like it serves us sometimes

01:55:22.840 at a certain point.

01:55:23.820 Right.

01:55:24.760 Yeah.

01:55:25.360 Well, especially the way in which we have reacted to it.

01:55:30.120 I mean, in so many ways, like technology, I think almost by definition is supposed to make

01:55:34.120 our lives better and supposed to make our lives easier.

01:55:36.860 Right.

01:55:37.380 Yeah.

01:55:37.760 And I don't necessarily see that happening.

01:55:41.020 Right.

01:55:41.440 It makes specific tasks easier, but then we fill up that space with other work.

01:55:45.860 Yeah.

01:55:46.040 Right.

01:55:46.260 And, you know, it like, um, have you ever tried to do some task that's really easy now,

01:55:52.880 but have you ever thought about like what it used to be like when we were young?

01:55:56.440 Oh yeah, dude.

01:55:57.280 Like I even just, even writing a sentence the other day, it was like, where are we?

01:56:01.520 Yeah.

01:56:02.040 I was like, what happened, dude?

01:56:03.860 Is this, are we in like the, or is this a war treaty or something?

01:56:08.440 I was like, what are we even?

01:56:10.440 And then I was watching, um, it was a pencil, right?

01:56:13.940 And I was watching the leg come out.

01:56:15.340 I was like, this is crazy.

01:56:18.720 This just happened.

01:56:20.100 I cannot even believe it.

01:56:21.940 Yeah.

01:56:22.380 It's, I mean, when I think about how, how, uh, I think honestly it was like, uh, it was

01:56:29.740 getting my tickets for this flight.

01:56:31.140 And I was like thinking about how there was a time when like you ordered paper tickets

01:56:36.120 and they came in the mail and you had to like carry them with you.

01:56:39.440 And you were all excited.

01:56:40.720 Yeah.

01:56:41.140 Yeah.

01:56:41.620 Versus handphone.

01:56:42.540 Yeah.

01:56:42.740 You got a ticket to a concert.

01:56:44.060 Like there were certainly things that added this, like there was more of a, um, when there

01:56:49.460 was more paper in the world, things that, I don't know, things felt a little bit more

01:56:53.280 connected.

01:56:53.740 Even when there was like a local newspaper and stuff and you got your name in it for something

01:56:57.840 or you got to see what was happening in your community.

01:57:00.000 It was a big deal.

01:57:00.940 Like they don't have a lot of those anymore.

01:57:02.900 And so a lot of just like the value of being a community that's not just like a national

01:57:10.080 community feels like it's dilapidating some.

01:57:12.980 I think that's true.

01:57:14.080 I mean, I think that's the, there's definitely a degree to which people have sort of like

01:57:20.280 locked themselves into their homes in ways that they're like, and they think they're

01:57:25.340 interacting with people because they are online, but they're not necessarily coming

01:57:30.660 out and talking to their neighbors regularly.

01:57:32.980 No, they're not even talking to their spouses or kids.

01:57:34.800 They're always in their room on their devices, just ordering DoorDash or whatever, like exotic

01:57:41.960 pistachios or whatever.

01:57:43.340 Like people are ordering just a lot of weird stuff.

01:57:45.520 And then it just, at Christmas, they all meet up in the living room.

01:57:50.520 Everybody's like, wow, mom grew a mustache, you know?

01:57:54.620 And it's just, yeah, it's just, I don't know.

01:57:56.760 It's a different time.

01:57:58.200 Exotic pistachios.

01:57:59.800 Yeah.

01:58:00.040 Yeah, dude.

01:58:01.660 They're good.

01:58:02.460 Some of them are good.

01:58:03.060 Are they?

01:58:03.540 Yeah.

01:58:04.340 I'm trying to think.

01:58:05.340 Any other things you found that you've gotten, that you get angry at yourself for, Dr. Martin?

01:58:12.020 I think some things that, like the things that tend to jump out at me, a lot of them are

01:58:15.960 things we've talked about.

01:58:16.780 Like it's, I get angry at myself when I don't achieve whatever I set my mind to, whatever

01:58:22.500 I've decided.

01:58:23.160 And that's true, not just with work, but it's true with like personal or fitness goals or things

01:58:29.500 like that.

01:58:29.980 You know, when I, like I said, I map out pretty specific goals.

01:58:33.980 And then when I don't achieve those things, I tend to get disappointed with myself.

01:58:39.180 Um, I think I tend to, I've become much more relaxed over time, not necessarily at work,

01:58:46.640 but much more relaxed about just the, uh, my interactions with other people that I meet

01:58:52.160 every day.

01:58:52.580 And I've, I've sort of embraced that philosophy of, Hey, everybody's dealing with something

01:58:56.660 and just, you know, I, I was going through security yesterday at the airport and I, for

01:59:02.880 whatever reason, I think you'll appreciate this for whatever reason I got flagged by

01:59:06.640 their, by their like system.

01:59:08.680 Get him.

01:59:09.080 God's angry.

01:59:09.920 You know, the system where you go in and you have to stand there with your arms up and

01:59:12.900 then it, and it like smells you or something.

01:59:15.240 I don't know.

01:59:15.660 I don't know what it does.

01:59:16.800 Really?

01:59:17.180 Yeah.

01:59:17.460 So it, somebody said it is, they take the smell of you and just email it to Satan or

01:59:21.900 whatever.

01:59:23.560 And that scares me.

01:59:24.760 Well, I walked out and, uh, it, it like, it lit up both my crotch and my ass like on

01:59:32.020 their like little monitor.

01:59:33.020 And the, and the guy was like, sorry, man, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta pat you down.

01:59:37.320 And, and he, and he took me aside and I think I got a trainee and he was, and he, he was

01:59:43.820 a little rough with me, man.

01:59:44.960 Was he?

01:59:45.260 Yeah.

01:59:45.540 And it was like, it, it was a, it was a, a rough pat down and it was.

01:59:50.700 Was he using more palms you think?

01:59:52.240 Palms are denser.

01:59:53.320 No, he was, he, he told me, he walked me through this.

01:59:55.620 Here's what I think happened.

01:59:56.460 I think because he was a trainee, he felt the need to like do a real good job.

02:00:01.480 And so he told me.

02:00:03.040 They're gonna know.

02:00:03.640 Yeah.

02:00:03.920 He's like, I, cause my supervisor's watching and I gotta, so I'm, this is where, why I'm

02:00:08.920 telling the story is because like, I'm going to grant this guy some grace and just say

02:00:12.980 he's doing his best.

02:00:14.280 He's got a, he's got a new job.

02:00:15.540 He's trying, he's trying really hard, maybe too hard, but he, he did the thing where he

02:00:20.700 put his hands like this and he, and he patted me and he, and he walked me through in advance.

02:00:25.220 He told me what was going to happen.

02:00:26.740 He also had to go up and down my legs.

02:00:28.360 Oh yeah.

02:00:28.780 That's a big one.

02:00:29.700 Kind of.

02:00:30.160 Yeah.

02:00:30.480 It's like, if you just ask me if something's on my legs, I'll tell you honestly.

02:00:34.620 Yeah.

02:00:35.560 That's who I am.

02:00:36.640 Yeah.

02:00:37.160 He, yeah.

02:00:38.280 At one point he said, do you want to, would you like me to take you someplace private?

02:00:41.420 And I was like, no, no, I really don't.

02:00:45.100 I want to, I want to be out here.

02:00:46.500 You met online?

02:00:47.380 Yeah.

02:00:48.500 Craigslist.

02:00:49.020 It was great.

02:00:49.360 Oh God.

02:00:49.520 Yeah.

02:00:49.720 We met out in the woods.

02:00:51.280 He wanted to.

02:00:51.880 Oh.

02:00:53.460 Dude.

02:00:53.940 There used to be a strange encounters on Craigslist, casual encounters.

02:00:57.220 Oh yeah?

02:00:57.740 Yeah.

02:00:58.080 You could go on there and just meet strangers in the middle of nowhere if you wanted to.

02:01:01.620 No thanks.

02:01:02.680 I'm good.

02:01:02.820 I did it.

02:01:03.380 Did you?

02:01:03.680 I wish I wouldn't have probably, but there was definitely some different times you just

02:01:08.680 didn't know, you know, just gosh.

02:01:13.240 I've only used Craigslist to sell stuff and we didn't meet in the woods.

02:01:16.980 We just met at my house.

02:01:21.120 TBD brother, you know, there's more to be, there's more to know, I'm sure.

02:01:25.440 These are your books right here.

02:01:26.540 Why we get mad.

02:01:27.880 Those are for you.

02:01:28.800 Oh, thank you.

02:01:29.160 You can give them away, but you got to find someone named Theo to give them to because

02:01:32.140 I signed them.

02:01:33.160 Oh, thank you, Dr. Martin.

02:01:34.100 Now they're worthless.

02:01:35.060 Yeah.

02:01:35.180 That's super cool.

02:01:37.100 How to deal with angry people.

02:01:39.560 Yeah.

02:01:39.880 What do you tell people in this?

02:01:41.500 Yeah.

02:01:41.800 So that book, it's broken into two sections.

02:01:44.120 It's got one that really explains where anger comes from, where, why people get angry,

02:01:52.280 some of those angry personality types we were talking about.

02:01:54.280 And then it goes through like 10 specific suggestions for like how you can deal with angry people

02:02:01.620 when you interact with them.

02:02:02.540 Some of it's like, how do you deal with people that you run into online?

02:02:05.360 Some of it's, how do you stay calm?

02:02:07.360 Part of it's, you know, do you consider whether or not you really screwed up?

02:02:12.700 Maybe the problem is that you blew it and you need to find ways to make amends.

02:02:17.340 So it's things like that.

02:02:22.320 Is apologizing ever a bad idea, do you think?

02:02:25.580 I mean, what I usually say about apologizing is that I don't think people should do it if

02:02:33.020 they don't mean it.

02:02:34.120 I mean, I think you should mean your apology.

02:02:36.120 Yeah.

02:02:36.240 Um, and I think a lot of times we, you know, so I, I, I, I think that one of the things we've done

02:02:44.620 is by, especially with kids, a lot of times we force them to apologize.

02:02:48.020 Oh yeah.

02:02:48.520 Like you gotta go say you're sorry.

02:02:49.840 And, and, you know, I think that actually sends a message of, well, apologizing is what you

02:02:54.640 do to get out of trouble.

02:02:56.100 And that isn't necessarily why we should apologize, right?

02:02:58.800 We should apologize if we're really sorry.

02:03:00.440 I actually don't want people to apologize to me if they're not actually sorry, right?

02:03:03.740 Then it's just a meaningless gesture.

02:03:05.820 Um, and, and it, and it's weird too.

02:03:08.380 Yeah.

02:03:08.600 They're still calling you names, but they're apologizing.

02:03:10.580 Right.

02:03:11.040 Right.

02:03:11.520 And so.

02:03:12.280 Like, I'm sorry.

02:03:12.800 I called you a name, you little.

02:03:14.140 Yes.

02:03:14.600 And then you're like, Jesus God.

02:03:16.300 And it, cause so if it doesn't lead to changed behavior, then what's the, what's the point?

02:03:22.440 Yeah.

02:03:22.980 So I think, uh, so I, I think, but, but the flip side of that is when a person is sorry,

02:03:30.240 they should apologize and they should do it well, you know, like they should, they should

02:03:35.220 do it effectively.

02:03:36.760 They should, you know, tell people what they're sorry for and they should, they should make

02:03:41.720 amends in a way that suggests that it won't happen again.

02:03:44.440 And I think that's where a lot of people fall short is that it's always, uh, I'm sorry

02:03:49.800 if, or I'm sorry, but, uh, instead of just, I'm sorry.

02:03:54.240 Yeah.

02:03:54.760 What can I do to make it up to you?

02:03:56.820 That sort of thing.

02:03:58.540 Before you go, I wanted to, um, I wanted to ask you, why do people, why is road rage such

02:04:06.440 a thing?

02:04:06.980 Why does that?

02:04:07.860 Yeah.

02:04:08.020 Driving is just the absolute perfect scenario for, for leading to anger.

02:04:14.300 Everything about it.

02:04:15.300 I mean, truly, if you were an evil genius and you wanted to create a situation that was going

02:04:19.480 to make people mad, you would create one that, that looked like driving.

02:04:23.220 Right.

02:04:23.460 I got to get from here to here.

02:04:24.700 Yep.

02:04:25.100 I got, I got goals and there's people in the way of those goals.

02:04:28.340 Those people who are blocking them are anonymous to me.

02:04:31.340 Um, so I can think or say whatever I want.

02:04:34.260 Right.

02:04:34.520 I can call them a total fucking idiot.

02:04:36.340 Yeah.

02:04:36.620 And, uh, and, and I don't know that they might be a genius and I'll have no idea.

02:04:42.540 Um, you've, there's all these unwritten rules of the road.

02:04:47.060 Um, I mean, there's written rules, but then there's also like, what speed should you be

02:04:50.980 going?

02:04:51.400 Right.

02:04:51.900 I mean, right.

02:04:52.240 So there's vagueness in there too, which can.

02:04:54.620 Yeah.

02:04:54.880 So, um, it's a thing I often ask my students is what, what speed should you go on the interstate?

02:05:01.380 And because nobody says, you know, the speed limit, it's always five over 10 over 15 over.

02:05:06.660 Right.

02:05:06.880 It's, and so if we have, if you and I are on the road and we have different, what's your

02:05:11.760 answer to that?

02:05:12.480 My answer, probably 11 miles over.

02:05:15.720 Okay.

02:05:16.180 So I'm pretty close to that.

02:05:17.000 I'm like nine.

02:05:17.680 Okay.

02:05:17.880 Right.

02:05:18.100 I, I, I, I, I tend to set the cruise at nine over.

02:05:21.320 Um, so if, if you and I encounter each other on the road and you're behind me, well, you get

02:05:27.440 mad because I'm not obeying your, you know, arbitrary rule.

02:05:31.620 Right.

02:05:31.920 Right.

02:05:32.140 And I get mad because you're a hazard, right?

02:05:34.780 You're trying, you're riding my bumper or whatever, because, Hey, I'm already going

02:05:38.560 fast enough.

02:05:39.460 Yeah.

02:05:39.660 So these arbitrary rules set people off, um, all of that ends up, and then on top of that,

02:05:45.820 it's, it's kind of a nerve wracking situation.

02:05:47.660 We don't actually think of it.

02:05:48.960 We've been driving long enough that we forget how anxiety provoking it actually is that, but

02:05:53.660 it's dangerous.

02:05:54.280 Right.

02:05:54.880 And, um, and so like real harm can, uh, can, can happen.

02:05:59.900 And so all of that tends to exacerbate that, um, that, that likelihood of getting angry

02:06:07.200 when people slow us down or get in the way.

02:06:09.980 Um, and then add to it that the, the consequences are so significant of people running people

02:06:17.280 off the road when they get mad, people.

02:06:19.980 Oh, I see.

02:06:20.660 Yeah.

02:06:21.040 Just things like that, like that those consequences, we see those, right?

02:06:25.300 I mean, they're very visible.

02:06:26.200 In fact, we, we have seen more road rage related shootings in the last two years than ever

02:06:31.420 before, um, that people are, are getting aggressive.

02:06:35.540 Oh yeah.

02:06:35.780 If I'm aggressive dude and, and I have a gun.

02:06:40.140 Yep.

02:06:41.680 It's anybody's ball game, dude.

02:06:44.400 There we go.

02:06:45.840 Very unfortunate, very senseless visitors witness deadly Myrtle beach road rage shooting.

02:06:50.220 Oh yeah.

02:06:51.040 They call it murder beach now.

02:06:52.600 I think.

02:06:53.200 Jeez.

02:06:53.440 Every place is starting to be called like murder or something, but yeah, people are

02:06:57.500 just shooting.

02:06:58.840 They just, um, I had a friend in New Orleans that died in a road rage.

02:07:03.820 It, yeah, it's crazy.

02:07:04.980 It's really crazy, but it is, it's that intense moment.

02:07:07.740 But as a driver, if you can play it out in your head, like you were saying earlier, how

02:07:11.120 do I want this to play out?

02:07:12.700 Yep.

02:07:13.000 The truth is you probably want that guy to get a flat tire sometime the next day or

02:07:19.000 whatever.

02:07:19.260 That's fine.

02:07:19.720 But right now you want to get to where you're going.

02:07:22.740 And honestly, most of the time in those situations, I want to get as far from that person as

02:07:28.620 possible.

02:07:29.040 Yeah.

02:07:29.320 Like I don't, I don't want to interact with them.

02:07:31.420 Yeah.

02:07:31.780 You can't be following them.

02:07:33.540 What is this?

02:07:33.980 Somebody road raging.

02:07:36.560 Oh, this guy punched open a back window.

02:07:39.280 That's hard to do.

02:07:40.560 Yes.

02:07:40.920 That is hard to do.

02:07:43.960 Uh-oh.

02:07:46.180 Oh, this seems like a, um, oh, she just popped the trunk, boy.

02:07:52.000 Oh, my God.

02:07:53.320 Damn, bro.

02:07:54.220 She's carrying.

02:07:55.400 Oh, she gots a hatchet.

02:07:56.900 What?

02:07:57.540 Oh, and he hit her.

02:08:00.000 Those are children.

02:08:03.300 That's wild.

02:08:03.940 But it is crazy that one guy, he acted like they were crazy for coming after him after

02:08:08.360 he went and hit their window.

02:08:09.720 Broke their, yeah.

02:08:10.340 But it's crazy.

02:08:11.040 You would think you'd just leave.

02:08:12.760 If somebody broke your window, that dude.

02:08:14.360 Yeah.

02:08:15.060 That guy or whatever.

02:08:16.500 These incidents are everywhere now.

02:08:19.220 I mean, you scroll through.

02:08:21.160 I mean, that's the part of it.

02:08:22.040 So I had a weird, uh, interaction right outside my, my kid's school one day where, um, I was

02:08:28.120 parked waiting for pickup and this woman came and, and she parked her car in front of me

02:08:33.800 and she was, she was backing up and I got a little anxious that she didn't realize how

02:08:37.060 close she was.

02:08:37.940 Yeah.

02:08:38.300 And so I honked, but it wasn't, I mean, to me, this is what a horn is for actually.

02:08:42.900 Right.

02:08:43.100 It's like to alert someone like, Hey, you're, you might hit me.

02:08:47.220 Not, not because I was mad.

02:08:48.620 I wasn't, but wow, it made her mad.

02:08:50.940 Like she was really mad that I'd honked at her.

02:08:53.040 But what was interesting is that she got out of the car and she came over to talk to

02:08:56.600 me and she immediately started recording.

02:08:59.700 Like she, she took her phone out and started like videoing the situation.

02:09:04.000 I think thinking that we might.

02:09:06.220 Things might escalate.

02:09:07.160 Things might escalate and wanting it captured if it, if it did.

02:09:10.080 And, um, I think that like, which I do wonder sometimes what is, do, do phones, I don't

02:09:16.920 have an answer to this.

02:09:17.700 Do phones deescalate situations or do they escalate?

02:09:20.940 So, you know, like if, if, right.

02:09:23.000 Once the show is on now, do I have to perform?

02:09:25.700 Right.

02:09:26.640 I had a soccer coach come yell at me one day.

02:09:29.360 I was, I'm not, I'm not just me like yell at the fans at a game.

02:09:32.620 And I've, I've often, I mean, he was out of control.

02:09:35.640 I've often wondered what would have happened if I had just taken my phone out and started

02:09:38.560 recording?

02:09:39.100 Would he have been like, Oh, I should back away or would he ever just exacerbate?

02:09:44.360 Yeah.

02:09:44.880 And I don't know, dude.

02:09:46.000 Yeah.

02:09:46.760 Wow.

02:09:47.280 Yeah.

02:09:47.680 Because that's interesting.

02:09:48.920 It's almost like art imitates life or whatever.

02:09:51.360 It's like, we're just like, if we're watching something violent happen and then we get involved

02:09:57.740 in something violent, the first thing to do then a lot of times wouldn't even be to help.

02:10:01.960 It would be to record.

02:10:02.980 Right.

02:10:03.860 Right.

02:10:04.140 Because that's what we just saw.

02:10:05.580 If we just saw something recorded.

02:10:07.120 Right.

02:10:08.000 Gosh.

02:10:08.560 It makes me, I mean, I, and I, I truly wonder is that, I mean, there must be circumstances

02:10:13.280 where that's the smart thing to do, where that is going to deescalate.

02:10:17.240 Right.

02:10:18.280 You know, where people are going to start to sort of say like, Oh, I don't want to be,

02:10:22.160 I don't want to be famous.

02:10:23.320 Yeah.

02:10:23.640 I think if someone is probably urinating in your yard or something, then you definitely,

02:10:27.620 I'm going to record you and then like, Oh, I'm not going to be doing this on that

02:10:31.520 camera on the right camera.

02:10:33.320 I'm going to put my pants up or whatever.

02:10:35.940 But I think if it's somebody who's just like, I don't know, that's a good question.

02:10:41.380 I think part of the question is how rational are they in that moment?

02:10:44.380 Right.

02:10:44.760 You know what I mean?

02:10:45.220 If they're, if they might be doing it as a safety mechanism.

02:10:47.660 Yep.

02:10:48.120 I'm going to make sure things don't get out of control.

02:10:49.740 Right.

02:10:50.020 Right.

02:10:50.680 Yep.

02:10:51.820 But yeah, road rage commonly characterized by aggressive driving is a factor in more

02:10:55.220 than 50% of all car crashes that end in fatality.

02:10:57.980 According to AAA, in fact, in a separate years long study, road rate,

02:11:01.520 episodes resulted in about 30 deaths and 1800 injuries per year.

02:11:05.840 You know, it's funny.

02:11:06.760 I, one of the things that I oftentimes talk to people about and it's like, it's the, so

02:11:12.500 I did a Ted talk on anger.

02:11:13.960 If you have seen it back a while ago.

02:11:16.340 And so like the premise of that talk is that anger is good for you.

02:11:18.980 There it is.

02:11:19.820 Um, uh, that anger is like good for you and all these different ways.

02:11:25.080 One circumstance that I would not advocate anger is, is behind the wheel.

02:11:30.500 Right.

02:11:30.980 It's just, it, it, it feels like there's no good outcome that it, it just puts you in

02:11:35.920 a dangerous spot and better to, better to just back away and, and let it go.

02:11:41.920 Yeah.

02:11:42.080 Let it go.

02:11:43.420 Yeah.

02:11:43.880 What are good ways that anger, what is, when is anger healthy?

02:11:46.660 Yeah.

02:11:47.140 I mean, I think it's a lot of it is, um, you know, if you grant the premise that unfairness

02:11:52.840 exists in the world, that there are injustices in the world and, and I do grant that premise,

02:11:58.020 then, you know, feeling anger, uh, as a, uh, is totally natural and healthy.

02:12:04.400 And, um, it's what we do with it.

02:12:07.060 Right.

02:12:07.180 That is, that is most recent, I mean, anger, like any emotion, it exists in us for, because

02:12:14.900 of our evolutionary history, right?

02:12:16.620 It exists in us because it, it, um, encouraged our ancestors to like fight back.

02:12:23.700 And so it was a survival mechanism.

02:12:25.500 And so from that perspective, it's still valuable.

02:12:28.480 So the same way, you know, I, I get thirsty and I get a sip of water, anger motivates me

02:12:35.940 to confront injustice.

02:12:38.040 Right.

02:12:38.520 And you're going to need it too.

02:12:39.860 I mean, if they didn't, if we got rid of anger completely would be, then what if there

02:12:43.760 were tyranny or something, we'd never be able to stand up to it, you know?

02:12:47.440 Exactly.

02:12:47.780 Or what if there were, yeah.

02:12:48.840 I mean, anger is behind all these social movements in, in really meaningful ways.

02:12:53.320 Right.

02:12:53.640 And now we were talking earlier about protests and social media that, um, but anger is what's

02:12:58.460 motivating most of those in oftentimes in, in, in healthy ways.

02:13:04.440 Um, yeah.

02:13:05.900 Yeah.

02:13:07.720 Um, Dr. Ryan Martin, I'm trying to think of anything else we can cover.

02:13:12.440 I think we got a pretty good.

02:13:13.880 Yeah.

02:13:14.520 We went from flushing the toilet before you, before you're done peeing all the way to getting

02:13:19.520 patted down at the, by a TSA agent, by an overly aggressive TSA agent.

02:13:24.120 I think we've covered a lot.

02:13:25.020 That's a lot of ground.

02:13:26.020 Um, Dr. Ryan Martin, thank you so much, man, for coming in.

02:13:31.340 Yeah.

02:13:31.500 Thank you, man.

02:13:32.140 This has been a absolute treat.

02:13:34.420 It's been great talking to you and it's been fun being, being here.

02:13:37.060 Yeah.

02:13:37.340 Appreciate it, man.

02:13:37.980 It's been interesting.

02:13:38.540 So just learn more a little bit about anger.

02:13:40.540 And the thing that has helped me at times is that moment of thinking, how do I want this

02:13:45.680 to play out?

02:13:46.560 Yep.

02:13:47.460 That's good.

02:13:47.860 If I can let that get me at that moment when you're about to open the cart or whatever,

02:13:52.960 you know, you're about to go in the other room and say something.

02:13:55.640 How do I want this evening to play out this afternoon, this next hour, this next week?

02:14:01.380 Yep.

02:14:03.300 Yeah.

02:14:03.960 I, yeah, I agree.

02:14:05.380 I mean, I think that like that has to be thinking about that outcome you want.

02:14:10.280 What is your desired outcome in any situation?

02:14:13.600 Yeah.

02:14:13.960 Is so important.

02:14:15.460 And then because the next question is, well, then how do I get there?

02:14:19.000 Right.

02:14:19.380 What is the thing I have to do to accomplish this?

02:14:23.060 And, and, you know, and now the, the second piece is be having the presence of mind to

02:14:29.820 deescalate yourself in order to have that thought and be intentional about that.

02:14:34.980 Right.

02:14:35.360 Yeah.

02:14:35.540 If you can get to that thought, you're probably going to be okay.

02:14:38.280 Right.

02:14:39.080 I've noticed that if for myself, if I can get to that thought, I'm probably going to be

02:14:42.080 okay.

02:14:42.280 Cause most of the time I'm going to choose.

02:14:44.420 Yeah.

02:14:44.980 Let's find a way to get this.

02:14:47.300 Let's find a way to just get through this.

02:14:49.460 Yep.

02:14:49.700 And, and the, I think for people who have real genuine anger problems, there are, they're

02:14:55.240 not able to get to that thought, you know, that they're so escalated in the moment.

02:14:59.620 It's this righteous anger that is driving everything they're thinking about and they're

02:15:03.920 not able to, to, to, to get to the place of, okay, what's the rational, healthy thing

02:15:10.720 to do right now?

02:15:11.580 Yeah.

02:15:12.140 Cause I think preserving your peace is really key.

02:15:15.040 I mean, I, there's just, everything is loud everywhere.

02:15:17.380 There's just, everything is like signaling or letting, you know, notification, just never

02:15:22.480 ending.

02:15:22.920 Now I think just holding onto your peace.

02:15:25.240 And, and if you can remember that, how do I want this to end?

02:15:28.580 How do I really want this to end?

02:15:30.380 It's really good for any situation.

02:15:32.240 Honestly, it's, it's good for, it's good for the, the small day-to-day interactions.

02:15:36.240 It's good for big life goals.

02:15:38.400 Yeah.

02:15:38.860 Business.

02:15:39.260 It's like, if you're calling to make a deal with somebody, maybe they don't want the

02:15:41.660 deal or maybe it's not, but do you want to do deals with them for the next 10 years?

02:15:45.280 What do you, how do you want things to look long-term?

02:15:48.260 You know, do you need to be, you know, does the price need to be that?

02:15:52.280 Can it be a different price over five years?

02:15:54.300 And, and you still have a great business relationship, you know?

02:15:58.120 Yeah.

02:15:58.760 Yeah.

02:15:59.160 Do you have to win this argument?

02:16:00.680 Do you have to defeat that Pontiac Firebird that just flipped you off, dude?

02:16:06.260 Right.

02:16:06.620 You probably don't.

02:16:07.580 Probably not.

02:16:08.240 It probably doesn't matter in the long run that you, that you win that.

02:16:11.860 But how do you get through it today?

02:16:13.200 How do you reach out to your, if you're angry, how do you reach out to your spouse and just

02:16:18.380 say something nice just because you know, it's going to make it better when you guys

02:16:21.980 get home or when you see each other again, so that they're not going to have a tough

02:16:25.220 day, you know?

02:16:26.780 How do you, even if you're mad at your girlfriend or something, say, look, everything will be

02:16:33.000 okay, you know?

02:16:35.240 Yep.

02:16:35.600 I'm thinking through to those long-term goals.

02:16:40.780 What do you, how do you want this situation to be?

02:16:42.980 And then, and then charting the path to get there.

02:16:46.060 And I think honestly, for a lot of people, the, the, the challenge is that they haven't,

02:16:50.100 they aren't able necessarily, or haven't spent enough time thinking about that destination,

02:16:54.660 you know, and, and what, and, and being really intentional about this is, this is the outcome

02:17:01.680 I want.

02:17:03.260 This is the outcome I want today.

02:17:04.800 This is the outcome I want next week.

02:17:06.340 And so this is the outcome I want for this, this drive to work, right?

02:17:10.260 Is to get there safely.

02:17:11.880 And once you start having that thought, then it, it helps you, it helps you stop diverging

02:17:17.080 into stupid, stupid directions.

02:17:19.400 Yeah.

02:17:20.680 Yeah.

02:17:21.000 Sometimes I don't have that.

02:17:22.060 And so then I'm at the whims or whatever.

02:17:23.560 Right.

02:17:24.200 You know, sometimes I'm just a little bit aimless, which is okay, but, but, but it can be risky.

02:17:33.200 Dr. Ryan Martin, thank you so much for coming in, man.

02:17:35.600 You bet.

02:17:35.980 Thanks so much for having me.

02:17:36.980 This has been a treat.

02:17:37.880 I appreciate it.

02:17:38.380 From start to finish.

02:17:38.740 Yeah.

02:17:38.920 Yeah.

02:17:39.180 I've been dealing with some anger and so just excited to get to talk about it and, and just

02:17:44.380 think about it.

02:17:45.040 So thank you for sharing your knowledge.

02:17:46.480 Yeah.

02:17:46.760 You bet.

02:17:47.000 Thanks, man.

02:17:49.400 Thank you.

This Past Weekend with Theo Von - November 08, 2024

E543 Dr. Ryan Martin

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