This Past Weekend with Theo Von - E550 Craigslist Founder Craig Newmark

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00:01:47.880 Today's guest is an entrepreneur and a philanthropist.

00:01:51.040 He worked at IBM.

00:01:52.500 He worked at Bank of America.

00:01:53.700 But most people know him as the founder of Craigslist.

00:01:58.720 A site that has given so many unique experiences to the world.

00:02:04.320 We're so happy to get to spend time today with Craigslist's own Craig Newmark.

00:02:10.980 Shine on me.

00:02:15.340 And I will find a song.

00:02:18.680 I've been singing just for now.

00:02:26.340 And I've been moving way too.

00:02:28.620 And just want to let you know, like, we're just excited you're here.

00:02:31.260 And we don't have any.

00:02:32.120 This isn't like a got you podcast.

00:02:34.160 We're not trying to do anything uncomfortable.

00:02:36.720 You know, obviously, you've had a very unique life.

00:02:39.240 And we just want to, I think we're curious about it, you know.

00:02:43.540 Well, two episodes ago, you had Ryan Martin.

00:02:46.340 Yeah.

00:02:46.880 And I learned one big thing on thinking about what he had said.

00:02:52.900 So I'm prepared to even mention that because he made me realize something,

00:02:59.880 which I won't be able to do anything about, but at least understanding helps.

00:03:04.420 Oh, about anger.

00:03:05.720 Yes.

00:03:06.280 Yeah.

00:03:07.120 Yeah, he's, yeah, I thought Ryan Martin was really interesting.

00:03:09.680 He's a professor over in Green Bay because I think anger is something that's kind of enveloping

00:03:14.120 people a lot these days, you know.

00:03:15.680 I find it a lot in myself.

00:03:17.600 And you almost get, I mean, obviously, it's kind of embarrassing.

00:03:21.020 You know, it's a weird feeling that's like, you know, it can lead to a lot of negativity,

00:03:24.920 can lead to, you know, dangerous activities.

00:03:27.200 But it's also, you, I feel you get embarrassed of it, you know, and it kind of just takes

00:03:30.840 you over.

00:03:31.340 Well, in my case, it's tied in with some traumatic stress.

00:03:36.020 And my deal is I learned the hard way that no good deed goes unpunished.

00:03:41.280 I learned that a person who's basically honest will never be able to successfully deal with

00:03:47.140 a person who lies for a living.

00:03:49.240 That's very frustrating because I have to keep it in.

00:03:54.160 Someday somebody may be able to deal with it, maybe with some help from me.

00:04:00.360 Someday some situations may turn into some real drama, possibly criminal referrals.

00:04:08.860 But I'm the kind of guy who people for years have been told, have been telling me that some

00:04:15.400 areas, I just don't have the skills, and I contribute by not talking.

00:04:22.380 So do you feel like you're kind of a quiet guy sometimes?

00:04:26.200 Generally quiet, generally restrained, except for reasons of comedy.

00:04:33.440 I know that I'm not as funny as I think I am.

00:04:38.300 And yet, like, I tell my philanthropic grantees that I would like for them to tolerate my sense

00:04:47.340 of humor, but not encourage me.

00:04:49.580 Okay, nice.

00:04:50.620 And so far that's worked out well.

00:04:53.240 Particularly last night, the Bob Woodruff thing, I did briefly hang out.

00:04:58.280 What was it last night, just so we can tell our listeners now?

00:05:01.220 Yeah.

00:05:01.760 Last night, there was a fundraiser for the Bob Woodruff Foundation.

00:05:06.820 They run a network called Got Your Six.

00:05:09.920 Got Your Six?

00:05:10.860 Got Your Six, like in the military sense.

00:05:13.180 Right, Got Your Bet.

00:05:14.100 Yeah.

00:05:14.800 And about 350 organizations who are actually good at helping.

00:05:19.500 And many philanthropic organizations are challenged when it comes to actually helping.

00:05:26.080 But these guys are good.

00:05:27.880 They need a lot of money to help out, help out vets and their families.

00:05:31.540 And this was both a comedy concert and a music concert.

00:05:36.840 The guys, I think it was Mark Normand.

00:05:39.680 Oh, Mark Normand was there?

00:05:40.520 Yeah.

00:05:40.900 Yeah, he's great.

00:05:42.080 We're both from New Orleans.

00:05:43.560 Well, starting from there, there's Jim Gaffigan.

00:05:48.160 Wow.

00:05:48.760 Jerry Seinfeld and Jon Stewart on the comedy side, which was great for me.

00:05:56.480 Yeah.

00:05:57.080 And then on the music side, Nora Jones.

00:05:59.720 And then there's this guy, Springsteen.

00:06:03.960 Yeah.

00:06:04.440 I had spoken to him before.

00:06:06.140 Yeah.

00:06:06.380 And I told him that, as a nerd, I understood that he was very popular, but that I don't know his music.

00:06:16.160 And he reacted quite satisfactorily.

00:06:22.460 His jaw dropped.

00:06:24.360 His wife, this was a few years ago, but his wife got the joke immediately.

00:06:29.340 The better part of the joke is I was being literal.

00:06:32.120 I really am a nerd.

00:06:33.480 Yeah.

00:06:33.760 I'm the kind of guy in the late 60s in high school.

00:06:39.220 I wore a plastic pocket protector, thick black glasses taped together, no social skills.

00:06:45.240 So you really, you, did you kind of embody that nerd vibe?

00:06:48.640 Like you were like, you saw a nerd and you were like, I'm going to be over here.

00:06:51.700 I'll be there.

00:06:52.340 I had to originate the thing.

00:06:54.360 Wow, this is you right here.

00:06:56.060 You found the store of old photos.

00:07:00.340 Oh, wow.

00:07:00.900 That's me in high school.

00:07:02.220 That's nuts.

00:07:02.900 Those are the thick black glasses.

00:07:04.500 Oh, yeah.

00:07:04.980 Not taped together at the time.

00:07:07.640 Now, see, I can simulate or fake normal human social behavior now, but it is a simulation.

00:07:15.300 I have to work hard on it all the time.

00:07:19.880 And after a while, I will start getting cranky.

00:07:24.220 Okay.

00:07:24.500 But the nerd cliche originated right around when I was around, so I do take credit for

00:07:30.540 it.

00:07:30.720 Well, we're glad to have one of the most nerd-torious humans, Craig Newmark.

00:07:38.140 Thanks for hanging out, man.

00:07:40.060 I appreciate it.

00:07:41.100 You know, we're in the Chelsea Hotel number two.

00:07:43.440 Do you know that?

00:07:43.880 I know you're a Leonard Cohen fan.

00:07:45.580 Yes.

00:07:46.420 And this is, he had songs based that were based out of here.

00:07:49.480 I think he spent time with Janis Joplin here.

00:07:51.420 He did.

00:07:52.020 Yeah, allegedly.

00:07:52.580 Well, I'm near where I live in the village, not far away, walking distance.

00:08:01.280 I have a friend, my comedy consultant, and he lived here during that heyday.

00:08:07.060 He knew both of them and others.

00:08:10.180 He was intimidated by Leonard Cohen.

00:08:13.960 See, this friend was in the process of transitioning from music to comedy, which turned out to be easier

00:08:20.320 for him to do.

00:08:21.000 He was really big in the 70s and 80s.

00:08:24.600 He may not have invested well, because I saw him yesterday, but he's much funnier than I am,

00:08:34.700 for real.

00:08:35.380 Yeah.

00:08:35.860 Okay.

00:08:36.540 And that's why I know that I'm not as funny as I think I am.

00:08:40.900 Very fair.

00:08:41.640 You're doing okay with me so far.

00:08:45.300 Thank you.

00:08:46.040 If I knew you better, I'd, I believe comedians indulge in a practice called Breaking Balls.

00:08:54.260 Oh, yeah.

00:08:54.780 I will introduce my friends sometimes as a guy who used to be funny.

00:08:59.000 Uh-huh.

00:08:59.300 I will tell him, oh, yeah, comedy requires actually funny material.

00:09:05.340 Yeah.

00:09:05.820 Yeah, that's a good, that's a good starting, that's a good starting point.

00:09:08.480 But he's, he's given me a couple jokes to use, reminding me that at my, at his age and

00:09:13.700 my age, when you get down to tie your shoes, you look around and you think, what else can

00:09:19.720 I do while I'm down here?

00:09:21.140 Yeah.

00:09:22.700 And, uh, unfortunately that's turned true.

00:09:26.000 When I do get down, I'm, I'm, I have some worries about being able to get back up again.

00:09:31.380 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:09:32.060 Once you get down to the ground floor again, sometimes you kind of want to stay down there.

00:09:35.280 I, um, I used to, we used to listen to Leonard Cohen when I was a kid.

00:09:39.060 My mom would put it on when we would, uh, when we would have to clean the house on Saturdays

00:09:43.460 and my mom would put it on, um, that I remember that song, uh, when the walls came down.

00:09:50.560 Okay.

00:09:51.280 That's, uh, older school, even for Leonard.

00:09:54.180 All the way to hell.

00:09:56.080 And we'd be like, all right, I'll, I'll clean.

00:09:58.120 Yeah.

00:09:58.680 I, uh, vaguely remembered, uh, him, well, in like 88 or so, uh, I'm Your Man premiered.

00:10:07.060 And I, uh, love that.

00:10:08.480 And first we'll take Manhattan.

00:10:10.500 And then I found, uh, various positions.

00:10:13.500 What is that?

00:10:14.240 First we'll take Manhattan.

00:10:16.640 And then we'll take Berlin.

00:10:18.400 And then we'll take Berlin.

00:10:19.780 Yeah, dude, that's crazy.

00:10:21.340 That's those lyrics have mildly been in my head over the years.

00:10:23.900 And I didn't even know that that's where they were from.

00:10:26.040 They were from Leonard Cohen.

00:10:27.660 Yeah.

00:10:27.920 He influenced a lot of musicians after, uh, he's my, uh, favorite to, uh, in an obsessive

00:10:34.980 way.

00:10:36.280 And now and then when I'm in the right mood, I will listen to him.

00:10:40.260 He's, uh, not cheerful by the way most people will think about him.

00:10:45.480 He's a little dark.

00:10:46.400 Yeah.

00:10:46.740 But he's uplifting if you're into it.

00:10:49.500 Yeah.

00:10:49.780 He reminds me of a kind of a darker Anthony Bourdain of music in a way.

00:10:54.320 I, uh, I haven't thought about that.

00:10:56.680 Um, but I'm, I'm trying not to think too much about food.

00:11:00.620 Okay.

00:11:01.120 Okay.

00:11:01.500 Well, why you have a year?

00:11:03.500 Well, my problem simply is that since I've been on the run all morning, I did pass a place

00:11:09.400 which had what looked like a good slice of, uh, pumpkin pie.

00:11:13.640 Oh yeah.

00:11:14.220 I, uh, however may have been disappointed.

00:11:17.240 So I'll think of something, uh, later this afternoon, something a little less risque.

00:11:21.840 Well, my problem is that, uh, uh, food is just too delicious and it's hard to know when

00:11:29.220 to stop.

00:11:30.240 Yeah.

00:11:30.720 Well, it's funny cause they don't put a stop sign at the bottom of a dessert or something.

00:11:34.580 Um, that may or may not be, uh, helpful.

00:11:38.060 I will, uh, face the challenge in roughly two hours.

00:11:42.160 Okay.

00:11:42.660 There we go.

00:11:43.320 Well, we have you for a limited time today.

00:11:45.140 I do want to talk.

00:11:46.320 Um, you are the Craig from Craigslist.

00:11:49.000 Yeah, that is true.

00:11:50.280 Yes.

00:11:50.800 Okay.

00:11:51.060 And, um, how did Craigslist start?

00:11:53.880 Like just, I know that's a basic question, but it's, you don't even think about it as

00:11:57.820 a regular human.

00:11:58.800 We don't even know that you're a real, we just, you don't even know.

00:12:02.500 Yeah.

00:12:03.060 And I, uh, occasionally tell people that Craig is fake like a Betty Crocker.

00:12:09.340 My deal is that I moved to San Francisco, uh, mid, uh, well, mid 93.

00:12:14.320 Okay.

00:12:15.380 And I saw there were a lot of people helping each other out on the net.

00:12:19.500 Uh, sometimes doing so giving away expensive consulting time.

00:12:25.080 And I took advantage of that.

00:12:26.580 People helped me settle in, told me about neighborhoods and restaurants and, uh, events that I might

00:12:32.720 get interested in.

00:12:33.620 So you were communicating on the, on the internet, just with people looking for information about

00:12:37.940 being, living in a new area.

00:12:39.700 Yeah.

00:12:39.900 A lot of this was from the well and early virtual community, some from Usenet news groups, which

00:12:46.560 were the first big deal discussion boards.

00:12:49.540 And there is a spirit that we were all going to use the net to help each other out.

00:12:54.600 Yeah.

00:12:54.920 So I thought I should give back, started a simple CC list, um, telling people about what

00:13:01.140 I thought were cool events, usually, uh, arts and technology like Joe's digital diner or

00:13:07.880 the Anon salon, which was a, uh, party fundraiser for a local theater, highly entangled with the

00:13:15.840 very earliest burning man.

00:13:17.620 Oh.

00:13:18.140 And I, I never got involved with that because I realized that I'm not a burner at heart.

00:13:24.220 Yeah.

00:13:24.920 But, uh, this mailing list, it started growing via word of mouth.

00:13:29.920 Uh, and I started asking for more stuff than just events.

00:13:34.000 Like if people wanted to sell something, if people had a job or an apartment.

00:13:39.680 So that's how it started.

00:13:40.900 So you started just emailing people just with information about things to do in the area.

00:13:44.920 It started to grow and it was just an actual list of people you were sending a message

00:13:49.260 to.

00:13:49.580 Yeah.

00:13:49.640 It was literally an email CC list and that broke at 240 addresses.

00:13:55.060 I had to, uh, use a listserv.

00:13:57.340 I had to give the thing a name.

00:13:59.620 I was, I'm very literal as a nerd.

00:14:02.060 I wanted to call it San Francisco events since it was still mostly that.

00:14:07.460 Yeah.

00:14:08.220 I, yeah, I don't have much of an imagination.

00:14:10.960 Well, but then I, uh, I was going to call it SF events.

00:14:14.640 People around me told me they had given the name, uh, Craigslist.

00:14:19.580 Ah, they told me I had accidentally created a brand.

00:14:24.260 Then they explained to me what a brand is because I was that naive.

00:14:29.500 They were right.

00:14:31.040 Called it Craigslist.

00:14:32.740 Just kept growing increasingly for the first three years.

00:14:36.820 Just me.

00:14:37.700 And how often was the, was the list going out?

00:14:40.180 Whenever somebody had something, I would send it out.

00:14:43.280 Okay.

00:14:43.920 So is that once a week or twice a month?

00:14:45.780 Um, if I was lucky, it could be, let's say something worthwhile a few times a day.

00:14:51.620 Oh, nice.

00:14:52.220 Okay.

00:14:52.800 The deal is not that, uh, big, but, uh, let's say high value.

00:14:57.160 And I was being careful.

00:14:59.080 I didn't want to spam anyone.

00:15:00.600 Right.

00:15:01.000 And it just kept growing, um, via word of mouth.

00:15:05.340 And we've never really done any advertising.

00:15:07.640 Yeah.

00:15:08.100 And I'd never seen, yeah.

00:15:09.420 Yeah.

00:15:09.580 I should be careful.

00:15:10.340 I'll wrap around to it, but I'm not involved with the thing nowadays.

00:15:13.900 I'm retired.

00:15:14.940 Mm-hmm.

00:15:15.460 Busier than I've been, but retired.

00:15:17.800 Mm-hmm.

00:15:18.220 But yeah, the deal is it's just me for a few years.

00:15:20.760 And you were the only staff member.

00:15:22.280 Yes.

00:15:22.680 And what were some of those early high value items?

00:15:24.380 Like, what was something that would come across?

00:15:25.740 Are we talking like, kind of like a, like a, a painting?

00:15:29.500 Are we talking a, uh, like a little catamaran?

00:15:31.860 What are we talking?

00:15:32.660 Um, mostly I was thinking about, uh, jobs.

00:15:35.900 Okay.

00:15:36.540 Because one of the best things you could do for someone is to help them get a job.

00:15:41.980 Um, sometimes then help them, uh, well, find a place to live.

00:15:46.260 Uh, what Craigslist is about in a lot of ways is helping put food on, helping people put food on the table.

00:15:52.580 Right.

00:15:52.740 You would say, yeah, that's a great point.

00:15:54.220 If you can help somebody get a job, it's such a, yeah, that's residual.

00:15:58.440 And it was, uh, completely free the first three years.

00:16:03.440 But the people who were putting jobs on there wanted me to charge them for, to post for jobs.

00:16:09.500 Because they felt some like indebted in some way.

00:16:12.500 Well, they felt that, uh, they were paying a lot more money for job ads in other places with fewer results, less quality results.

00:16:21.500 So they said, uh, charge us a little bit, that'll pay the bills.

00:16:27.780 And they were right.

00:16:29.360 Um, experimented a little bit with volunteers and charging for jobs in a 98.

00:16:35.740 But I got the idea from people in 97 running with volunteers didn't work.

00:16:41.340 What do you mean running with volunteers?

00:16:42.360 You mean to help you?

00:16:43.400 Yes.

00:16:43.780 Okay.

00:16:44.020 And at that point you're just doing it out of your home?

00:16:46.020 I, I, exactly right.

00:16:47.680 First three years off of your home computer.

00:16:49.100 And how big did the email list get?

00:16:51.320 Sorry, Craig.

00:16:51.860 Um, you know, I don't really know how big it got through that time because in 96, I remembered

00:16:58.720 that I'm a programmer.

00:17:00.680 I can write software, which turns emails into web pages.

00:17:05.500 And so I started doing that, uh, which gave me web publishing for free.

00:17:10.940 Okay.

00:17:11.260 And I, when something started taking too much of my time, I wrote some more code, which reduced

00:17:17.980 what might take an hour a day to a few minutes a day.

00:17:21.100 Got it.

00:17:21.540 And that happened a number of times.

00:17:24.180 Uh, but 98 tried running it with volunteers.

00:17:27.660 Uh, the people who cared for the thing who were doing job postings in particular said volunteer

00:17:35.140 thing isn't working.

00:17:36.520 Uh, sometimes things would take a while to get posted.

00:17:39.720 So I had to make the thing into a real company.

00:17:42.080 Right.

00:17:42.500 So at that point you're like, if I want to keep this going, it's got a, there needs to

00:17:46.020 be some checks and balances and obviously salaries help, help create that.

00:17:50.100 Yeah.

00:17:50.360 I need to hire other people to do coding, uh, customer service, uh, billing.

00:17:57.220 And, uh, that meant making it into an actual, uh, corporate structure.

00:18:02.840 Was that scary to think about that?

00:18:04.620 Uh, very scary.

00:18:06.160 But the hard part was at that point, you know, at events, parties, I would talk to bankers and

00:18:13.140 venture capitalists who wanted me to do the usual Silicon Valley thing.

00:18:17.780 Yeah.

00:18:18.140 Uh, monetize everything and they would throw a billions at me.

00:18:23.000 And, uh, I was thinking I don't need billions.

00:18:27.960 I don't understand why people would do that speaking.

00:18:31.520 And that has to do with in a Sunday school, Mr. and Mrs. Levin, they taught me that, uh,

00:18:38.340 you should know when enough is enough.

00:18:40.360 They taught me, um, to treat people like you want to be treated.

00:18:45.220 So nothing altruistic.

00:18:48.060 This is just a return to Sunday school values, literally.

00:18:52.940 And so we, Craigslist philosophy is to monetize only those ads for people who were paying more

00:19:00.280 money for less effective ads.

00:19:02.560 So not an altruistic decision.

00:19:04.940 Right.

00:19:05.860 Uh, just, uh, basics.

00:19:07.580 Yeah.

00:19:08.420 But also a little bit of barrier to entry, which not in a negative way, because you still,

00:19:13.640 everybody needs to hire someone or has the opportunity and maybe they can't afford the ad,

00:19:18.580 but, um, but it, it provides a little more structure to even just some basic.

00:19:23.300 Yeah.

00:19:23.580 It does provide some structure.

00:19:24.800 Right.

00:19:25.100 Well, that's useful in the sense that, uh, well, everyone is struggling trying to get

00:19:32.800 through the day.

00:19:33.460 Right.

00:19:34.040 And some people are selling, doing things for profit, like brokering apartments in New York

00:19:40.000 City.

00:19:40.380 Mm-hmm.

00:19:40.740 And, uh, with, uh, sometimes it's questionable ethics.

00:19:45.420 And I found one year that, uh, new apartment brokers might make like 20 K in a year, which

00:19:52.960 even 15 years ago, you had to work two or three other jobs.

00:19:56.580 Wow.

00:19:57.220 So I said, how do you balance the idea that you want to give everyone a break?

00:20:02.480 And I was able to suggest stuff, uh, to the people running the company at that point, because

00:20:09.620 also in, uh, again, I made Craigslist into an actual company in 99.

00:20:15.420 Okay.

00:20:15.680 So that's when it became an actual company in 1999.

00:20:18.080 Yeah.

00:20:18.360 And at that point, are you guys have an office?

00:20:19.960 You guys have, uh, we turned it from running it, uh, in a room in my house into a room in

00:20:29.740 a commercial strip way out in the neighborhoods of San Francisco.

00:20:33.480 Wow.

00:20:34.020 That's cool.

00:20:34.600 And the other hard decision I had to make that year, 99, was that, uh, I started to

00:20:41.620 realize with help that as a manager, I suck.

00:20:45.100 Oh yeah.

00:20:45.780 It's being, it's hard to be a manager, isn't it?

00:20:47.340 Uh, very hard.

00:20:48.500 Cause you don't realize when you're going to go, when you're going to, once you start to

00:20:51.400 have employees and stuff, you're like, suddenly I'm a boss.

00:20:54.100 And if you never wanted to be a boss, it's a very precarious situation to be in.

00:20:58.360 I've been there, man.

00:20:59.320 What, what were some of the things that you noticed you were not good at?

00:21:02.980 Well, mostly hiring and firing as a nerd, I am not good at reading people and I needed

00:21:10.640 to, uh, promote someone who would be good at that.

00:21:14.520 And I'd already stopped coding because I hired a bunch of people who are better than me.

00:21:19.680 Okay.

00:21:20.500 I stepped down to just do full-time customer service.

00:21:24.200 I'm a great customer service rep.

00:21:26.680 Okay.

00:21:27.120 Not a manager of customer service, but I was a customer service rep and did that for maybe

00:21:33.880 around 15 years.

00:21:35.240 Okay.

00:21:35.600 So you ended up just being a customer service rep at your own company.

00:21:38.600 Yes.

00:21:39.280 Wow.

00:21:39.540 So if somebody had a customer service issue, they would contact you on the phone or email?

00:21:42.940 Well, with some luck, um, they would contact someone else on phone first.

00:21:49.380 Okay.

00:21:49.540 I took that, uh, luxury for myself of not having to answer the phone, but they would

00:21:55.080 generally email me because I was just Craig at craigslist.org.

00:21:59.900 Easy to guess.

00:22:01.260 So I spent a lot of time doing that kind of thing and got a lot of stuff done.

00:22:08.760 And you found yourself effective there.

00:22:10.820 Um, yeah, well, I saw, uh, what I mostly saw was a lot of good.

00:22:15.740 Uh, that is, uh, people on the net are overwhelmingly good.

00:22:20.600 Uh, the, uh, bad guys, bad actors get a lot more press because sometimes, uh, mainstream

00:22:26.900 media generates clicks by emphasizing the bad.

00:22:31.280 Yeah.

00:22:31.540 This is kind of a normal thing.

00:22:33.600 Especially nowadays.

00:22:34.660 What were some of, um, the, or what were some of the things you saw in there early that,

00:22:38.780 that helped you to believe in the good and continue to make it go?

00:22:42.080 Uh, consistently, I saw people helping each other out consistently.

00:22:47.140 I saw people give away stuff that they could have sold for some cash.

00:22:52.640 Oh, like sometimes, uh, you don't need the cash and then you would just give away something

00:22:58.740 of, uh, actual value like old computer equipment.

00:23:02.840 That was pretty good.

00:23:04.460 Oh yeah.

00:23:04.940 A lot of baby cribs on there.

00:23:06.440 A lot of stuff like that.

00:23:07.440 Uh, in fact, that's in particular, it's particularly true, uh, baby cribs, baby carriages and moving

00:23:15.320 boxes because it could also be a baby carriage pinning on, you know, or a cat toy.

00:23:20.720 Oh yeah.

00:23:21.160 Yeah.

00:23:21.640 But the idea is that when you move, you have a lot of boxes, which are still really good

00:23:27.160 and the chances are nearly a hundred percent someone, uh, not far away needs good boxes.

00:23:36.340 Yeah.

00:23:36.900 I used to live with a guy, live with this guy named Kenny for a bit and he was a pretty

00:23:41.640 big stoner.

00:23:42.280 Right.

00:23:42.540 And I didn't know him, met him on Craigslist.

00:23:44.500 Right.

00:23:44.820 I get over there and I ended up living over there and he would stack, he had a couple of

00:23:49.220 cats and stuff and at night he was kind of like a, uh, I guess kind of an avant-garde

00:23:54.640 like circusy kind of animal trainer guy, but he would stack all the boxes, these empty

00:24:00.200 boxes in the room and he would make the cats play on them and he'd make me come out of

00:24:03.980 my room to watch the show, you know?

00:24:06.700 So it was crazy, but it was like, I don't know, it's something I still kind of remember

00:24:10.660 about him.

00:24:11.080 I kind of, I guess it was pretty, I thought it was interesting, but yeah, people use boxes.

00:24:14.640 Yeah.

00:24:15.300 Yeah.

00:24:15.800 Well, the deal is that, uh, people everywhere in the country are, uh, okay.

00:24:22.660 I, uh, when you're doing customer service at that deeper level, you see a lot of stuff

00:24:27.580 and most of it is great.

00:24:29.420 I did see some stuff I, uh, wish I didn't.

00:24:33.320 And that's the problem with content moderation.

00:24:36.360 It's a very tough job, especially if it's full time and you're not getting paid much.

00:24:41.360 Um, and so these people are only seeing questionable stuff and that can do some damage.

00:24:48.040 Yeah.

00:24:48.460 Were you, uh, so at that point, yeah, I guess cause Craigslist started to be this place.

00:24:53.440 It kind of became everything really fast is what it felt like just as a user, right?

00:24:58.500 It became like a first place where you could get a used air, you know, you could get a blender

00:25:03.040 or an air balloon or a roommate, but then it started to escalate to where there was like,

00:25:07.920 um, you know, people would buy drugs on there, you know, or people you'd see people like,

00:25:12.480 um, I would do it, you know, and you would see people, but they also had code names for

00:25:16.940 the drugs.

00:25:17.480 So it made it to be this kind of like, um, it, it had a fun spot to it.

00:25:24.040 You know, you'd be on there.

00:25:25.060 I mean, they had like, I remember beef jerky was a code name.

00:25:28.540 Um, those many bennies they had that brain dander, that baby.

00:25:32.180 Hey, it was one of them.

00:25:33.220 Um, I'm trying to think of any other, that Pedrito Blanco was a spam, but they, you know

00:25:38.040 what it was, that dragon de negro they had.

00:25:41.000 Um, uh, I'm trying to think that whispering mother.

00:25:43.920 That was, that was a kind of a native one that they were, it was peyote.

00:25:48.120 Well, I know that, uh, the mainstream press greatly exaggerated a lot of this.

00:25:53.820 They didn't point out that what you see on the street always makes it online and online

00:25:59.960 everywhere.

00:26:00.980 You guys weren't producing it.

00:26:02.660 Well, what they, what the mainstream press doesn't point out that if you're a conscientious

00:26:07.300 site, you, uh, keep around the digital forensics and because people leave a lot of trace evidence

00:26:15.320 around, uh, CSI style.

00:26:17.780 Wow.

00:26:18.180 And that years and years ago, I talked with a lot of cops who were real pleased with the

00:26:25.180 way that we kept around the forensics.

00:26:27.180 Um, and because of high school history, um, I learned the balance between fighting crime

00:26:35.000 and the rights of the accused.

00:26:37.340 What's in the bill of rights, what's in the constitution.

00:26:40.720 Wow.

00:26:40.980 So you had to, so you took that upon yourself to, it must've been kind of a tough navigation.

00:26:45.080 Was it tough to navigate that personally?

00:26:46.800 Because you have this, this atmosphere that people can kind of, it's a, it's just a pathway,

00:26:53.160 right?

00:26:53.460 Well, what I did is I, uh, mentioned this to the boss and to the lawyers and said that

00:27:00.080 we got to do this balance.

00:27:01.360 We had the advantage of having the electronic frontier foundation available because they're

00:27:06.700 the big pioneers of all this stuff online.

00:27:09.120 What does that mean?

00:27:09.540 The electronic frontier foundation?

00:27:11.140 Well, what they did is they're a great voice in standing up for the rights of regular people

00:27:17.000 and that balance.

00:27:19.100 You got to do the right thing to, uh, for victims and cops.

00:27:22.640 You got to do so in an American way, meaning looking at the bill of rights.

00:27:28.200 And, uh, if a cop wants to see the forensics, there needs to be something like a subpoena

00:27:34.180 or search warrant.

00:27:35.320 Um, that's the way things are done in our country.

00:27:38.700 There's the laws.

00:27:39.460 That's a judicial overview.

00:27:41.460 And that's the ultimate purpose of that was to prevent the kind of abuse we saw under

00:27:48.100 King George, uh, literally speaking.

00:27:50.460 I did have that really good high school history teacher.

00:27:54.180 He taught the kind of civics that you don't have nowadays, but I took this in the, uh,

00:28:00.400 in 1970.

00:28:01.780 I I'm really old.

00:28:03.540 You look great.

00:28:04.860 Well, thank you.

00:28:06.220 This teacher was great because he even took us once to a taping of a firing line, which

00:28:12.180 was William F. Buckley Jr.

00:28:14.040 He invented, uh, American conservatism, at least the modern form of it.

00:28:19.360 And that really influenced me because at that point I'm getting off on a tangent, but at

00:28:25.240 that point I was looking at that.

00:28:26.800 I was starting to take a bit of a look at libertarianism, that kind of stuff.

00:28:32.000 And this is more than 50 years ago.

00:28:34.800 So it's funny because you kind of ended up in this space later on where you're like trying

00:28:39.000 to look at the ethics of like, um, communication who has rights.

00:28:43.740 It's what the, how do you protect people, but also give people the freedoms that they are

00:28:47.860 deserve under their own life.

00:28:49.900 Is that what you're kind of saying?

00:28:51.140 That's pretty much it.

00:28:52.160 Um, these days, frankly, uh, I've given up on politics for some years.

00:28:57.600 I now regard terms like liberal and conservative as kind of, uh, bullshit.

00:29:03.040 Yeah.

00:29:03.940 And I gotta, well, I gotta focus on helping people who protect the country.

00:29:10.600 Like there's vets and their families, there's active service members in their families.

00:29:16.380 Uh, and right now, uh, we're beginning to see battles on our soil, on our own systems,

00:29:24.740 uh, as a precursor to a cyberspace warfare.

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00:31:48.460 Um, right now, uh, people, well, like you are as an influencer, you're a target.

00:31:57.080 Um, yeah, we get stopped for things and we have to take certain things down, things that

00:32:00.600 we think are just fair speech.

00:32:02.500 You know, we have to put it all through a filter, you know?

00:32:04.640 Well, I'm, uh, more worried about our foreign adversaries and I'm most worried about our foreign

00:32:11.000 adversaries starting to compromise our utilities, water, power, and even our cars.

00:32:18.460 Because that's a thing that's happening in the here and now.

00:32:22.480 You could do a search online for something called Vault Typhoon.

00:32:26.400 How do you spell it?

00:32:27.540 Vault, like electrical vault.

00:32:29.180 Vault.

00:32:29.520 Typhoon, like a big storm.

00:32:31.580 And the FBI have been warning everyone that, uh, right now.

00:32:36.900 Yep.

00:32:37.440 What is a Vault Typhoon?

00:32:38.200 A cybersecurity expert explains that Chinese hackers targeting U.S. critical infrastructure.

00:32:43.420 Um.

00:32:43.940 What is this?

00:32:44.540 Can you tell me a little bit about it?

00:32:45.940 Do you mind, Craig?

00:32:46.600 Right now, what they're doing is they're infiltrating home systems to be used to attack other systems.

00:32:54.060 What's worse is they're attacking the, uh, programmable controllers, which control the flow of water

00:33:00.720 into our, uh, taps.

00:33:03.700 They're controlling the flow of electricity into our homes.

00:33:07.120 Wow.

00:33:07.420 And a lot of those systems for much of the country are not protected.

00:33:13.560 The deal is that, uh, most of the country, there are rural water systems, rural electrical systems.

00:33:21.420 They don't have the resources to, uh, to protect them.

00:33:25.880 So a, uh, Chinese hacker, a Chinese military hacker could get in there, uh,

00:33:32.160 And sway our elections and stuff?

00:33:33.800 Well.

00:33:34.300 We'll sway our waterways?

00:33:35.420 Sway if we have access to water?

00:33:36.820 Well, what they can do is turn off the water supply.

00:33:40.560 And so if, let's suppose you wanted to invade a small island country, which was our ally.

00:33:47.200 Uh, and if the, uh, other country, our adversary, wanted to discourage us from fighting on behalf

00:33:55.780 of our ally, they could just started shut, they could start shutting off water and power.

00:34:01.380 And, uh, you know, if they did that where you're living, that would kind of ruin your day.

00:34:07.120 Yeah.

00:34:07.400 Yeah.

00:34:07.720 Yeah.

00:34:08.140 And for that matter, they could, uh, they could compromise, uh, cars, which are internet devices.

00:34:15.260 Oh, that's true.

00:34:15.640 Especially as cars become more electric.

00:34:17.640 Yeah.

00:34:18.140 And more like digital, really.

00:34:19.900 Yes.

00:34:20.520 They could shut off your car, stall it out in the middle of rush hour traffic.

00:34:25.200 If they did that in a city like New York, if they could just do a hundred cars,

00:34:30.020 that snarls traffic indefinitely.

00:34:33.520 Wow.

00:34:34.020 Yeah.

00:34:34.220 You do that.

00:34:34.680 And then they shut the power down and now things are getting really weird.

00:34:36.860 Yeah.

00:34:37.400 And, uh, all they would have to do is show they could do it.

00:34:40.840 And, uh, that would, uh, that's where the military is headed these days.

00:34:45.820 It is not replacing, uh, shooting wars.

00:34:49.240 Yeah.

00:34:49.520 But it's, uh, more powerful.

00:34:51.960 Like in world war two, um, the war came to our shores a little bit in whatever's happening

00:34:58.700 next, it's going to be a much bigger thing.

00:35:02.040 I'm planning to issue a national call to action wherein we tell everyone that we need

00:35:10.440 to protect our homes.

00:35:12.240 Utility companies need to protect themselves.

00:35:15.020 We're trying to build a networks of networks where everyone can protect each other.

00:35:19.900 Um, I'm, I'm not the guy to really be Paul Revere.

00:35:24.920 Right.

00:35:25.880 Uh, because that would require like social skills and remember I'm a nerd, but you could

00:35:30.880 be his horse maybe.

00:35:31.880 Well, I need to be something.

00:35:34.100 Um, but the deal is, is as I issue this call to action, as I point out that many utilities

00:35:39.760 are not protected, I'm going to piss off a lot of people.

00:35:44.260 You think so?

00:35:45.460 Um, why would they be upset?

00:35:46.720 I don't understand that part.

00:35:47.520 Well, sometimes, uh, people kill the messenger and I got, so I'll do it carefully.

00:35:53.020 We're ramping up slowly.

00:35:55.680 Um, we have this, uh, pause, take nine campaign.

00:35:59.060 So when you get a, like a suspicious email that could be phishing and our adversaries are

00:36:05.440 really smart.

00:36:06.460 They're as smart as our guys.

00:36:08.080 Yeah.

00:36:08.860 And, uh, we need to know how to fight back.

00:36:11.760 I need to consider helping out a new group being funded at Vanderbilt.

00:36:18.100 At Vanderbilt?

00:36:19.140 Yeah.

00:36:19.460 Oh, nice.

00:36:19.800 That's where I live in Tennessee.

00:36:20.740 Well, they've just, uh, started within the past couple of weeks, started a new facility,

00:36:26.700 which is going to be led by, uh, General Paul Nakasone, who led, I think it was cyber command.

00:36:33.660 And they have this, uh, philosophy of a defense forward where they're not waiting for the adversary

00:36:41.580 to come and get us.

00:36:43.300 We're taking more active measures.

00:36:45.180 And that's a big concern for you.

00:36:46.500 So that's something you donate to, right?

00:36:48.460 Well, that's a big area.

00:36:50.480 Like one big area in veterans and military families.

00:36:55.280 And I've now committed to a 200 million.

00:36:59.000 Wow.

00:36:59.440 And I've already spent more than half of it, uh, for cybersecurity.

00:37:04.120 I've also committed a couple hundred million.

00:37:06.960 This is not altruistic.

00:37:08.960 This is just, well, I was raised in the fifties to be a patriot.

00:37:14.600 This is just me following through with, uh, basics.

00:37:18.500 And, uh, I, uh, got the cash.

00:37:22.540 I'm, uh, not much for luxuries.

00:37:24.980 I do, uh, get all the streaming services I want.

00:37:28.440 And I do have a, uh, larger TV than I should.

00:37:32.000 Yeah.

00:37:32.220 I won't say anything.

00:37:33.140 Yeah.

00:37:34.100 Um, and, uh, beyond that, um, well, again, back to a Sunday school, you want to know when

00:37:42.420 enough is enough.

00:37:43.360 Right.

00:37:43.600 And you have to get back.

00:37:44.240 Yeah.

00:37:44.340 We talk about that on here sometimes.

00:37:45.540 I wonder if there should almost be a law.

00:37:46.920 I mean, you couldn't make it a law, but that at a certain point, people, somebody doesn't

00:37:50.220 need any more money, you know, like, because then it becomes, you see some people that

00:37:54.820 just have, so it's like, what are you doing?

00:37:56.460 Like, you know, it becomes almost this obsessive thing where, um, I don't know.

00:38:01.380 It just, it seems scary to think that some people have so much money.

00:38:04.580 Well, I don't judge any of that.

00:38:07.080 Everyone decides what's right for themselves and that's none of my business.

00:38:12.560 Okay.

00:38:12.900 I figure I should put my money where my mouth is and then, uh, try to get some, uh, good

00:38:20.080 stuff done, uh, make the occasional mistake.

00:38:23.960 And some of my decisions, uh, weren't great, but they weren't really, uh, mistakes.

00:38:29.620 You mean like in what investing and stuff like that?

00:38:31.920 You mean, or just, I don't invest really.

00:38:34.400 Okay.

00:38:34.840 I, uh, do, I guess.

00:38:37.820 Yeah.

00:38:38.020 Uh, what, uh, in the libertarian movement and the related financial stuff in the seventies,

00:38:44.140 early seventies, there was this idea of capital preservation because inflation was really bad

00:38:49.720 then.

00:38:50.300 So people were, uh, finding assets, which, uh, where they could preserve their capital.

00:38:56.380 Of course I was in college.

00:38:57.520 I didn't have much.

00:38:58.520 Right.

00:38:59.040 But I invest in the literal sense, very little.

00:39:03.580 I just want to keep what I have for nonprofits and some for myself and I want to keep that

00:39:10.140 safe.

00:39:11.800 And, but that's the old, uh, libertarian background.

00:39:15.860 Um, these days, my philosophy is much more mixed because I am, uh, you know, told in Sunday

00:39:24.280 school and elsewhere that you do want to, well, now and then you go on to be your brother's

00:39:29.980 or sister's keeper.

00:39:30.840 Now and then you want to help people out who need a hand, how you do that effectively.

00:39:37.120 No one knows the real answers for, but I can do a couple of things.

00:39:41.520 Not altruistic.

00:39:43.180 It's just, uh, basics.

00:39:45.620 And I learned all that, uh, over 60 years ago.

00:39:49.840 I mean, I realized recently how formative that was.

00:39:53.020 That's when I started reading a science fiction.

00:39:56.180 Yeah.

00:39:56.660 It's funny how those young years, they're little things you'll keep.

00:39:59.200 I still remember like certain things that I told someone I would do like 25 years ago

00:40:03.720 and every day, every, every couple of days, someone was like, Hey, don't forget, you still

00:40:06.960 have to do that little thing.

00:40:08.160 You know, um, it's funny how, how like those formative years and things that we hear when

00:40:11.980 we're young, um, can have such an, in, uh, such an effect on us, even as we grow older.

00:40:17.560 Um, I want to talk a little bit more about the actual site.

00:40:21.360 So the company starts growing.

00:40:22.720 Right.

00:40:23.440 And in addition to people helping each other get jobs, people were helping each other.

00:40:28.080 People were starting relationships on there.

00:40:29.760 I went on dates off of, um, Craigslist before, you know, did you yourself ever go?

00:40:35.640 Did you?

00:40:36.700 No, I, I always felt like a conflict of interest.

00:40:39.640 Yeah, that's true.

00:40:41.740 You're like, Hey, I'm Craig.

00:40:42.900 Yeah.

00:40:43.080 I got, I got lucky in a, uh, I got lucky in a, uh, local, uh, cafe.

00:40:48.580 Oh, you met your wife, your wife.

00:40:50.720 Okay.

00:40:50.940 And we've been together for over 20 years now.

00:40:53.720 Wow.

00:40:54.160 And if, so if you have some social awkwardness, what was that like for you?

00:40:57.400 Uh, I decided I would take a big chance.

00:41:00.640 Yeah.

00:41:01.180 I've been there, dude.

00:41:02.280 And, uh, uh, told her that, uh, she's beautiful.

00:41:06.620 The guy next to me, she tells me he rolled his eyes.

00:41:10.020 Yeah.

00:41:10.760 And because he rolled his eyes, that's why she started talking to me.

00:41:15.880 Oh, wow.

00:41:17.880 She's, so there was a little bit of some empathy there, human empathy.

00:41:21.700 Uh, well, it could have been a pity discussion.

00:41:25.120 That's another way of saying empathy.

00:41:26.360 Yeah.

00:41:26.620 Obviously I, uh, obviously I charmed her.

00:41:30.160 Yeah.

00:41:30.580 That's a spirit.

00:41:31.360 So last night we were at this, uh, fundraiser, uh, because I think she wanted to meet, uh,

00:41:37.160 Jerry Seinfeld in particular.

00:41:38.700 Mm-hmm.

00:41:39.340 And, uh, I, uh, don't blame her.

00:41:41.840 I, uh, had nothing to say.

00:41:43.600 I was tongue tied, but, uh, that's, uh, how I, uh, normally act when I, uh, talk to, uh,

00:41:51.300 celebrities, particularly if you're backstage and there's a show going on.

00:41:55.600 Yeah.

00:41:56.380 And having done a little bit of that, you got to get your head into the moment and you

00:42:02.280 don't want a distraction.

00:42:03.780 Right.

00:42:04.300 Yeah.

00:42:04.520 That's a good point.

00:42:05.140 You just want to kind of be a fly on the wall in some sense.

00:42:07.360 Yeah.

00:42:08.120 Wow.

00:42:08.480 So, uh, so, uh, so you started off, said hello in a cafe and then how long, um, was that,

00:42:14.860 was your relationship?

00:42:17.000 How long did that, um, kind of dating life go for you guys?

00:42:20.220 Well, um, after about, uh, nine years, I think, uh, I, uh, brought her over to, I showed her

00:42:27.460 Facebook on a screen.

00:42:28.700 I don't really use it anymore, but I said, is it okay if I change my relationship status

00:42:33.840 to engaged?

00:42:35.820 Wow.

00:42:36.460 And it took her a moment, but she said, oh, that's good.

00:42:39.620 Because I, I calculated at that point that, uh, uh, parental pressure had grown significantly.

00:42:46.620 From yours and hers?

00:42:47.980 Uh, hers.

00:42:48.760 Okay.

00:42:49.220 Um, and, uh, that worked out pretty well.

00:42:53.300 That's a pretty suave online move.

00:42:55.160 That's almost the most online way you could ask someone to marry you, I feel like.

00:42:59.540 Uh, well, uh, I hate to say it, but if you consider that, uh, suave, you may also be a

00:43:05.460 bit of a nerd.

00:43:06.240 I have, I, that when, I think when it comes to, yeah, we're happy.

00:43:09.660 Yeah.

00:43:10.220 There's like, yeah.

00:43:11.340 Talking with women, it definitely, it's not my, you know.

00:43:16.100 I wouldn't, yeah.

00:43:17.780 Yeah.

00:43:18.380 I, uh.

00:43:19.000 You're not, yeah.

00:43:19.960 Yeah.

00:43:20.260 I, okay.

00:43:21.360 That's the nerd cliche again.

00:43:23.200 I, uh.

00:43:23.820 Yeah.

00:43:24.440 I'm still socially awkward.

00:43:26.720 Uh, sometimes I can disguise that.

00:43:29.020 Yes.

00:43:29.420 But that's still, uh, me and it's not going to change now that I'm in my, uh, sunset years.

00:43:36.100 Yeah.

00:43:36.480 Yeah.

00:43:36.780 Yeah.

00:43:37.040 Sometimes it doesn't go away.

00:43:38.120 You kind of start to learn it.

00:43:39.320 I think I've just had the, I have the tough thing of asking a girl out.

00:43:43.000 Like sometimes I'm okay with talk.

00:43:45.080 I'll, I'll, I'll get good with talking with a woman, but it's just that next part.

00:43:48.660 And we'll just be standing there and we'll be like, well, somebody should ask somebody

00:43:52.120 out or walk away from somebody.

00:43:53.960 And then you're just still just standing there.

00:43:56.180 Yeah.

00:43:56.740 Well, that's the purpose of a misconnections.

00:43:59.120 Yeah.

00:43:59.400 Which anecdotally I know, uh, works once in a while because I've encountered, uh, over

00:44:06.680 the years, a bunch of, uh, couples which had gotten, uh, married.

00:44:10.780 No.

00:44:11.160 Off of misconnections.

00:44:12.160 Yes.

00:44:12.880 And, uh, I like that a great deal.

00:44:15.500 It is, uh, romantic in a, uh, understated way.

00:44:19.140 Oh yeah.

00:44:19.660 Well, how did that start?

00:44:20.740 How did that misconnection start?

00:44:22.380 Well, Jim decided he wanted to put it up.

00:44:24.600 He was the boss then.

00:44:25.560 So he did.

00:44:26.500 Oh, Jim was the, um, guy running the company at that point.

00:44:29.460 Um, when I realized that again, I'm a terrible manager, I'd already hired Jim.

00:44:35.460 Who's a good manager.

00:44:36.640 Jim.

00:44:37.100 What's Jim Buckmaster.

00:44:38.240 Jim Buckmaster.

00:44:39.040 Yeah.

00:44:39.180 You'll see pictures of us, uh, together.

00:44:42.300 And if it looks like we're at a eye level, it's because I'm standing on a box.

00:44:46.980 Okay.

00:44:48.200 He's a, he's a smaller guy.

00:44:50.060 He's a big, uh, he's a foot taller than me.

00:44:52.760 He's a taller guy.

00:44:53.320 Okay.

00:44:53.520 So it makes for a good, uh, there you are.

00:44:56.320 You actually do have your box.

00:44:57.780 That's, uh, the old office space.

00:45:00.360 And I was the one who, uh, who, uh, suggested the, the, uh, gag there.

00:45:06.060 Yeah.

00:45:06.800 And, uh, and, uh, kudos to your guys for being really good at pulling stuff up.

00:45:12.680 Craigslist.org.

00:45:14.160 Yeah, man.

00:45:14.800 When you guys were the first one to do.org, people were like, what is it?

00:45:18.240 People thought I meant Oregon.

00:45:19.860 People didn't even know what, you know, where is it?

00:45:21.880 Well, it was an early use of it.

00:45:24.220 And our approach was to be this minimal monetization thing.

00:45:29.340 And there's no category for that online.

00:45:32.220 So that caught the spirit and, uh, worked.

00:45:36.100 Yeah.

00:45:36.340 And, um, and so misconnections.

00:45:38.820 Do you remember like the first misconnection that was ever put up or the first personal

00:45:42.120 that was ever put up?

00:45:42.720 I'm sure people ask you that a lot.

00:45:44.140 Don't remember much of that at all.

00:45:46.960 Um, I, everything is a blur.

00:45:49.600 And unfortunately I wasn't smart enough to keep a lot of, uh, records.

00:45:54.620 And so a lot is, uh, lost like from the, uh, internet archive and the way back machine.

00:46:01.940 I could see the first site that I put up was a mid or late 96.

00:46:06.920 And that was pretty good.

00:46:10.880 And I evolved that kind of minimal style.

00:46:14.160 Like right now our site hasn't changed much in appearance in 30 years.

00:46:20.100 Why is that?

00:46:20.940 Well, I talked to a lot of people and they want it simple, fast, effective.

00:46:27.160 They want what you see is what you get.

00:46:30.020 And we've heard from a lot of designers who want a fancy and fancy may not be, uh, the

00:46:39.120 answer for a lot of things.

00:46:40.960 Yeah.

00:46:41.760 Sometimes, you know, you do see something which is impressive, uh, fancy and yet effective,

00:46:46.940 but that seems to be the minority.

00:46:49.680 Wow.

00:46:50.760 Yeah.

00:46:51.140 Yeah.

00:46:51.560 Yeah.

00:46:51.740 This is, you know, what you want.

00:46:53.220 What do you want?

00:46:53.920 Yeah.

00:46:54.100 You want heavy equipment outside of South Jersey.

00:46:56.760 What do you want?

00:46:57.440 You know, you want biotech out of, you know, in, um, Mendocino, you know, you want legal issues,

00:47:04.480 you know, you want ride shares, you want rodeo interests outside of Fort Worth.

00:47:08.460 It's just, it's all right there.

00:47:09.540 You know?

00:47:10.380 Yeah.

00:47:10.640 You can put it together quick, even a simple, even someone who isn't technologically advanced

00:47:14.800 could go here.

00:47:16.100 And the, even the, the, the, the terms you have on there, it's like childcare, right?

00:47:21.300 Pets, rants and raves.

00:47:22.760 It's like, it's just, it's every, everything you could need is kind of right here.

00:47:26.240 And that means the site is always a fast and it is.

00:47:31.280 Oh, because it's not a lot of big back, back around.

00:47:33.680 Wow.

00:47:34.240 And see, we've helped people in the tens of millions or more put food on the table.

00:47:41.740 But also.

00:47:42.340 Jobs you mean?

00:47:42.720 And selling things.

00:47:43.880 Exactly.

00:47:44.700 Okay.

00:47:44.940 And advertise their services.

00:47:47.700 But also we've, the site is so simple.

00:47:51.420 We've shown tens or maybe hundreds of millions of Americans that the internet could be useful

00:48:00.220 and reasonably easy to use.

00:48:03.780 And that meant a lot of people who may have been hesitant, hesitant to get on the net.

00:48:09.280 They get on the net.

00:48:10.400 And again, that's fairness for everyone.

00:48:13.300 That's treating people like you want to be treated.

00:48:16.380 And that ain't bad.

00:48:18.320 Yeah.

00:48:18.880 Fairness.

00:48:19.520 That's an important word, huh?

00:48:20.920 It's important to you.

00:48:22.660 Very much so.

00:48:24.500 Because you try.

00:48:27.420 Sometimes it's hard.

00:48:28.880 There are often tough decisions to be made.

00:48:32.360 And, but Jim took over that for the company.

00:48:36.320 And, you know, maybe he's done a better job than I ever could.

00:48:39.380 And I did make for a great customer service rep.

00:48:43.560 What made you choose Jim Buckmaster?

00:48:45.520 What was it about him when you interviewed him?

00:48:47.900 He believed in the mission.

00:48:50.040 And he was good on the technology side because he, in a way, had two jobs, manager and programmer,

00:48:59.780 because getting good programmers is hard.

00:49:03.420 And Jim, over time, hired a tech staff, everyone, better at their job than I was.

00:49:11.280 Wow.

00:49:12.480 That's cool.

00:49:13.100 It's also cool to hear you recognize that.

00:49:14.860 Like, yeah, these people are better than I was, you know, to learn where your spaces were best.

00:49:18.740 Yeah, I'm funnier than any of them are.

00:49:22.440 Of course.

00:49:23.120 But that's a, that may not be a high bar.

00:49:27.860 Well, they did sometimes do great things.

00:49:29.900 And like they would sometimes pull out great, great ads of all sorts, particularly Miss Connections.

00:49:36.900 And for a while ran a running best of Craigslist, although I haven't looked at that in a while.

00:49:44.900 You see, with the philanthropy stuff I'm doing, that's consuming.

00:49:49.460 I'm now working harder than I've ever been.

00:49:51.920 Wow.

00:49:52.180 Because I, I guess I am in a mission, you know, vets and their families need our help.

00:49:59.080 So that's one of your important causes.

00:50:00.400 I know, independent journalism, veterans, what is another philanthropic cause you enjoy?

00:50:06.800 Well, specifically also active service members and their families.

00:50:10.440 Okay.

00:50:10.720 Without going on at length, I'm shocked that military families aren't paid enough to get both a good place to live and food.

00:50:22.180 Yeah.

00:50:22.700 And the model used to be the volunteer army would be single guys.

00:50:27.580 Well, there's a lot of families.

00:50:29.940 They're relocated about 600,000 times a year.

00:50:33.420 Oh, yeah.

00:50:34.100 And that's where Blue Star Families comes in.

00:50:36.620 I can go on at great length and I think I'll stop there.

00:50:39.440 But that's the name of an organization that you help support?

00:50:42.000 Yes.

00:50:42.520 Well, Bob Woodruff Foundation for Vets.

00:50:44.660 Okay.

00:50:45.240 25 million from last night.

00:50:47.540 Wow.

00:50:47.980 And I happen to have a meeting, an event with Blue Star Families, which could also use something like that, but which I won't pre-announce.

00:50:58.020 A fundraising event?

00:50:59.080 Well, if you guys ever need a comedian at one, I'd love to come.

00:51:01.120 I can't believe it.

00:51:01.660 I wish I'd have known last night.

00:51:03.240 I would have gone.

00:51:03.860 That would have been awesome.

00:51:04.900 Well, the connection is through Caroline Hirsch.

00:51:07.600 Okay.

00:51:08.200 Who used to run Caroline's and now runs the New York Comedy Festival.

00:51:12.420 Yeah, that's going on this week.

00:51:13.420 Yeah, that's a world I know nothing about.

00:51:17.420 I kind of would like to, but people are busy.

00:51:23.560 I should do other things.

00:51:25.080 The Comedy Cellar is down the street from me.

00:51:28.180 Yeah.

00:51:28.340 I've never gone in.

00:51:29.620 Really?

00:51:30.440 Yeah.

00:51:30.740 Well, they seem to be booked all the time.

00:51:33.080 Yeah, they're pretty and it's limited seating too in there.

00:51:35.640 Yeah, and they're supposed to open at least one more space and, yeah, I should get off my butt and do something, but there's always lots more work.

00:51:49.680 Not only my own work, but let's say my in-laws need some help.

00:51:53.280 Oh, yeah, they always do.

00:51:55.080 God.

00:51:55.660 Fortunately, we can do a good job about that, but I got to stay focused on the areas where I'm doing some good.

00:52:03.460 And the cybersecurity part is part of that because, you know, this is the new war.

00:52:11.240 And did you start to learn that, where did that interest come from?

00:52:14.880 Or where did that realization that cybersecurity is going to be such a big thing?

00:52:19.060 Was there a lot of, like, attacks on security at Craigslist?

00:52:23.520 Like, did that happen?

00:52:24.720 Well, there was always something, but we had a good team for that.

00:52:27.980 Right.

00:52:28.480 But do you have to have that?

00:52:29.580 Like, say if someone was attacking Craigslist, this is what I'm asking, what would they be trying to get?

00:52:34.880 Well, they would be trying to disrupt service.

00:52:38.200 Okay.

00:52:38.700 They would try to steal proprietary information, which did happen.

00:52:45.280 What does proprietary information mean?

00:52:46.560 I'm sorry, Craig.

00:52:47.380 Proprietary information at any company is like secret information, like payroll, client list.

00:52:54.300 We didn't have much of that because we are a simple classified site.

00:52:58.700 But people thought that we had some, quote, unquote, secret sauce.

00:53:04.100 Yeah, some big fancy stuff.

00:53:06.040 And the irony is that that was never the case.

00:53:10.780 And yet people try to do things.

00:53:13.740 There were some problems with leakages of that information.

00:53:16.900 But the problem that I'm not concerned with that at Craigslist now, I'm concerned, well, I've been reading about this for decades.

00:53:28.640 And now I see that an adversary would do something like, well, you know, they would try to, a form of warfare would be to try to jam or hack a drone.

00:53:42.500 Right.

00:53:42.800 If they turn your drone against you, you're going to have a bad day.

00:53:47.040 If it's an autonomous drone, one that's figuring out where the enemy is for itself, if they could subvert it, they would turn our autonomous drone back against us.

00:54:00.480 That would make for someone's bad day.

00:54:02.580 Yeah, imagine if we sent out a drone and it's supposed to get information, send it to an artillery unit or a missile that's supposed to fire automatically from the information from that drone and they're able to hack it.

00:54:14.900 We could, you could literally, our army could do it themselves.

00:54:18.140 Wow.

00:54:18.540 There's a lot of mundane things.

00:54:20.420 Things like our, well, our hot water heaters at home are, you know, becoming internet connected.

00:54:29.420 So sometimes they could diagnose it remotely.

00:54:32.240 Boilers like that in factories.

00:54:35.420 There are painting robots.

00:54:36.980 And those things, if hacked, they could start running them at high.

00:54:43.480 An oven could be just told to run at high until it burns, causes a fire.

00:54:50.840 And if there's a few fires like that, your first responders can deal.

00:54:55.740 But if there's a thousand, you have a problem.

00:54:58.540 Yeah.

00:54:58.700 If somebody hacks your ovens, you don't even think about that.

00:55:00.800 Somebody hacks your ovens, next thing you know, there's 1,100 fires in an area.

00:55:04.780 Now the deal is that there's room for optimism, for help, because there are already people who are really good at dealing with this.

00:55:13.580 What I'm doing is gathering together, funding them so that they could work together, starting to work with local governments everywhere, everywhere through the country.

00:55:25.720 Starting to come up with, let's say, some best practices because we have some breathing space, we think.

00:55:31.920 Got it.

00:55:32.080 And the idea is that, you know, water supplies, power supplies, they also go down because of natural disasters.

00:55:40.780 They need to be resilient.

00:55:42.580 They need to be where you knock them down, they can come back up in a small amount of time.

00:55:49.160 Well, it's even funny, like, even with drones, like, when I was a kid, you had to do a little bit of peep and tomming, right?

00:55:53.820 If you wanted to look into somebody's window, you had to go over there.

00:55:56.940 I don't know anything about that.

00:55:58.460 Yeah, I'm not saying you do, yeah, and I, you know, and I'm not saying I do, you know what I'm saying, but I do, you know, but I do.

00:56:04.560 I know, but yeah, somebody here does, and it's me.

00:56:07.420 Well, what I'm saying is this, now as a kid, you can use a drone, and that's the laziest thing.

00:56:14.140 We, you had to go risk getting beat up by a woman's husband to look in their window, even if they were just cooking or whatever, right?

00:56:21.820 I'm not getting lewd with it.

00:56:23.140 I'm just saying, you know, but now you can just get a drone and go do it.

00:56:27.020 It's like, just breaks my heart, some of that kind of stuff.

00:56:30.020 In Manhattan, apparently that's illegal, and like, oh, right now I wonder, I like my tech toys.

00:56:40.040 Yeah.

00:56:40.500 I would get a drone, and I would be bored with it after a few minutes.

00:56:43.860 Yeah.

00:56:44.340 My neighbor kids would enjoy it, because they would learn how to use it really well, and their parents have vetoed the idea for the reason you mentioned.

00:56:53.560 I'm sure.

00:56:54.220 I didn't even think about that.

00:56:55.320 Yeah, because I'm still like just squinting real hard and hoping I'm seeing something.

00:56:59.120 Well, it's a big problem in New York.

00:57:02.180 I bet.

00:57:02.820 That's awesome.

00:57:03.780 Lots of big problems, lots of big cities all near each other.

00:57:07.440 Yeah.

00:57:08.060 And a contested airspace, because we need the cops to have drones.

00:57:14.160 That's just getting crazy.

00:57:15.700 You know, yeah, I just, you don't think about all those things.

00:57:19.140 You don't think about all the ways that we could be hacked and the immediate effects of it, you know?

00:57:22.640 Yeah.

00:57:22.780 So we need to protect ourselves in all sorts of ways.

00:57:26.360 And that's why, you know, the idea is to build networks of volunteers who are running, let's say, the nonprofit world, the NGO world, and that way then they cooperate with other parties.

00:57:42.800 But we do have to, well, it's like World War II.

00:57:47.160 We looked out for each other.

00:57:49.240 Everyone tried to play their part.

00:57:51.760 And the looking out for each other in that positive way isn't bad.

00:57:57.220 Yeah.

00:57:57.460 And like right now, if something starts happening weird with my baby camera equivalent, I would like to be able to get help from someone.

00:58:09.980 Right.

00:58:11.000 And even worse, if the oven started running away, I would want to know what to do about that.

00:58:18.100 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:58:19.820 When, when Craigslist, when you, at what point were there ever, like, categories that you wouldn't do?

00:58:30.460 Were there ever?

00:58:32.820 Right, very early on, we heard in large numbers that people didn't want gun sales on the site.

00:58:41.260 And there I am thinking, because I still have some influence then, there are constitutional rights there, but one of them is property rights.

00:58:51.740 So if you have a site, it's your property, you get to set the rules, so you decide what's right and wrong there.

00:59:00.820 So I believe in property rights and freedom of choice, and that's what you exercise.

00:59:07.040 And that's what people do through the net.

00:59:09.840 But it's your site, your thing, you decide what the rules are.

00:59:14.720 So you were able to, so you actually got to decide that or not decide it, or you and your team?

00:59:18.840 Team.

00:59:19.480 Okay.

00:59:19.820 I had an opinion, but I wanted the team, as such as it was, to work it out.

00:59:27.560 That was a little bit of good management, but I couldn't consistently deliver good leadership.

00:59:35.960 And even now, I'm not a top-down kind of leader.

00:59:39.840 Maybe I could lead by example.

00:59:42.640 My frustration, in a way, is that I want to be able to lead by example when it comes, there's a lot of people with a lot of discretionary money, billionaires, who maybe could be doing really good stuff with that.

00:59:56.600 And I'd like to have the skills to inspire them.

01:00:02.520 Understood.

01:00:02.920 I don't have those skills.

01:00:04.160 Well, I don't even, I mean, I think even here and today, the things that you care about are things that sometimes I don't even think to care about in some ways or fears that I don't think that, you know, you don't even think that, oh, somebody has to, we need to have a person needs to donate to this because maybe our country isn't worried about it enough yet.

01:00:22.720 You know, it's, you know, so I think it sounds like you're doing a good job.

01:00:26.620 When you, did your company, because I'm trying to think like, so guns was a thing.

01:00:33.520 Did you guys end up selling them on there or no?

01:00:35.380 No, he said no guns.

01:00:37.120 Uh-huh.

01:00:37.680 And.

01:00:38.440 Swords, anything?

01:00:39.040 I, I have a feeling swords are okay, but I've never thought about it.

01:00:45.020 Yeah.

01:00:45.860 I'm trying to think of some, I mean, because he, I mean.

01:00:49.220 Well, drugs are illegal.

01:00:51.340 Uh, they're off.

01:00:52.480 So drugs were off, but people would try to skirt around that.

01:00:55.160 But even then, some of that was sometimes also.

01:00:57.060 Now, were there ever caught, like, could the cops use your site as well if they wanted to, to like as, um, decoy type of stuff?

01:01:06.220 Uh, I hear gossip about that.

01:01:09.320 I don't know how true that really is.

01:01:11.380 Right, because you don't know, right?

01:01:12.440 I do know that the cops, uh, have used the site in different ways to, uh, fight crime.

01:01:18.000 Uh-huh.

01:01:18.620 Sometimes, uh, let's suppose they think they see a stolen item being, uh, uh, being listed on the site.

01:01:26.580 Uh-huh.

01:01:26.820 Then they would, well, this is true for anything on the net.

01:01:29.940 If a cop sees something they think is wrong and they have a shot at doing something about it, they send a subpoena or a search warrant to the site.

01:01:38.720 Uh-huh.

01:01:39.000 And then the site, uh, the operators usually pass it to their lawyers and then the, uh, site operators provide the forensic evidence to the cops.

01:01:50.120 Um, which again is like CSI and just fighting, uh, fighting crime there.

01:01:55.540 The deal is in this country, we have these checks and balances, uh, in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

01:02:02.280 And, uh, you know, the, uh, founders of the country did a really good job of that.

01:02:07.160 Yeah.

01:02:07.880 You know, there are amendments and so on, which we only thought of years after, but the, uh, the people who did the initial work did great work.

01:02:18.120 And it, uh, for the most part stands up today.

01:02:22.020 They, they built a good structure over there.

01:02:24.440 Yeah.

01:02:24.800 Well, it's funny cause you guys, there was, yeah, it's just like, it's such a part of history.

01:02:28.620 You know, it's such a, um, I mean, I went on dates from it.

01:02:32.280 I remember I met a girl, we, I met a girl on, I mean, I would use casual encounters too.

01:02:38.020 You know, it's like, that was sometimes, um, I met a girl one time and we watched a Nets game and made love honestly.

01:02:45.380 And she let me sign her cast.

01:02:46.940 Right.

01:02:47.280 And I was like, you know, and it was, we had a great time.

01:02:51.200 I think we, I think we dated for a little bit.

01:02:54.620 There's no accounting for taste.

01:02:56.220 Yeah.

01:02:56.660 But, uh, I'm glad, I'm glad.

01:02:59.360 Yeah.

01:02:59.580 I know.

01:02:59.920 Who wants to be a Nets fan?

01:03:01.400 Yeah.

01:03:01.720 Your guys can remember that one for later years.

01:03:04.760 Oh, they've been on there, dude.

01:03:06.100 I think we accidentally met up once.

01:03:08.300 Um, but there was a place, you know, I was like, I had a such a tough time at a certain

01:03:12.600 point in my life dating.

01:03:13.780 There was something that added a level of mystery about it that I really liked.

01:03:18.120 Uh, I've never thought about that.

01:03:20.180 Oh yeah.

01:03:21.040 Everyone works differently.

01:03:23.120 Everyone does have different tastes and, uh, uh, that's, uh, none of my business.

01:03:29.280 Yeah.

01:03:30.060 You know, it's as long as it's legal.

01:03:32.680 Oh yeah.

01:03:33.300 It was, it was legal.

01:03:34.440 Did you, um, it's funny to say that people started marriage.

01:03:38.020 So people even got married off of, um, putting out a dating.

01:03:41.580 Like I would like to meet someone.

01:03:43.140 Yeah.

01:03:43.600 Wow.

01:03:43.980 Did you ever get invited to a wedding or anything?

01:03:45.540 I have gotten invited a number of times.

01:03:48.640 I'm, uh, not much for ceremonies or galas or anything like that.

01:03:53.920 And my relatives know this very well.

01:03:56.740 I have a dispensation to not go to some of the more obscure events on my wife's side.

01:04:03.180 Yeah.

01:04:04.120 And I'm, and I'm on the record.

01:04:06.800 I'm very grateful.

01:04:07.960 Yeah.

01:04:12.300 I think your comedy is getting better.

01:04:14.680 Uh, I've promised to, if I'm offered a open mic night, I will not do it.

01:04:19.520 Um, is pornography causing a problem in your life?

01:04:26.100 Do you find yourself watching porno for longer periods of time and having trouble stopping?

01:04:32.560 Is porn affecting your relationship or dating life?

01:04:37.380 Well, you're certainly not alone.

01:04:38.880 Watching pornography has become so commonplace today.

01:04:43.080 And oftentimes men use porn to numb the pain of loneliness, boredom, anxiety, and depression.

01:04:50.700 Shame and stigma prevent men from talking about these issues and getting help for them.

01:04:56.100 I want to introduce you to my friend, Steve.

01:04:58.780 Steve is the founder of Valor Recovery, a program to help men overcome porn abuse and sexual compulsivity.

01:05:05.700 Steve is a long-term sexual recovery member and has personally overcame the emotional and spiritual despair of abusing pornography and has dedicated his life to empowering men to do the same.

01:05:18.800 Steve is an amazing person and he is a close friend of mine.

01:05:23.540 I mean that.

01:05:25.060 Valor Recovery helps men to develop the tools necessary to have a healthier sex life.

01:05:29.660 Their coaches are in long-term recovery and will be your partner, mentor, and spiritual guide to transcend these problematic behaviors.

01:05:38.820 To learn more about Valor Recovery, please visit them at www.valorrecoverycoaching.com

01:05:48.380 or email them at admin at valorrecoverycoaching.com.

01:05:56.040 Thank you.

01:05:56.600 When you guys, at what point did you realize, okay, I need to, had you had enough of the day-to-day, what made you start to decide, I want to sell the company?

01:06:07.680 I haven't sold the company.

01:06:09.380 Oh, you haven't sold.

01:06:10.120 Okay, sorry.

01:06:10.800 Here's the history to prevent some confusion.

01:06:13.300 Okay.

01:06:13.840 I gave a guy some equity.

01:06:15.880 I made it a gift.

01:06:16.780 Okay.

01:06:17.160 On the expectation that he'd deliver.

01:06:19.360 That may have not happened, but he wanted to sell, sold to eBay, didn't work out, and we bought that equity back from eBay.

01:06:32.640 Nice.

01:06:33.080 Now, what I've done is I had a chunk of equity stock, and again, thinking, I don't need this.

01:06:40.780 So, I created a 501c4 foundation, put all the equity in there, and that's what generates dividends and sales.

01:06:51.580 Okay.

01:06:52.020 And that's what I'm using to fund these things.

01:06:54.240 Ah.

01:06:54.700 So, I now have a good idea of how much money I have to give away within the rest of my life.

01:07:01.380 Because you can look at the dividends and the earnings.

01:07:04.920 That kind of stuff.

01:07:06.540 And I figure I've got 5 to 20 years, and I know roughly how fast I should do it.

01:07:15.060 And my trouble, though, is that I'm 72.

01:07:18.660 20 years out, I may have to conduct due diligence via a seance.

01:07:24.480 Yeah.

01:07:25.360 And Ouija boards don't have the bandwidth I need.

01:07:30.980 So, I may just come back and haunt people.

01:07:34.340 Yeah.

01:07:34.640 Hey, that would be awesome.

01:07:35.720 Yeah.

01:07:36.160 Oh, I could definitely see a spirit looking for a place to stay, you know.

01:07:40.380 You have an excellent point there.

01:07:43.280 Although, computers don't operate very well in the afterlife.

01:07:48.280 Although, I'm making an assumption.

01:07:50.460 I don't know if that's true.

01:07:52.480 So, you still own it.

01:07:55.180 Oh, I, this is an important distinction.

01:07:58.960 I now own no equity.

01:08:01.420 It's in that foundation, 501c4.

01:08:05.000 Okay.

01:08:05.280 So, the company was transferred into a foundation or sold to a foundation?

01:08:07.960 My parts of it.

01:08:09.500 Other people do own chunks of the company.

01:08:11.840 Got it.

01:08:12.300 And they do what's right for them.

01:08:14.180 Okay.

01:08:14.640 Me, what's right for me is, frankly, to keep a little for myself.

01:08:18.740 Mm-hmm.

01:08:19.020 Because the wife insists that she needs to buy socks.

01:08:24.240 Yeah.

01:08:24.620 Oh, yeah.

01:08:25.020 And so, we have some leftover, which we do share with family.

01:08:30.060 Mm-hmm.

01:08:30.560 And, but the vast bulk of it is now for charity.

01:08:37.240 I mean, just yesterday, a guy, I guess an economist, analyzed what I would have made had I done the usual Silicon Valley thing.

01:08:45.840 He said, now I'd be worth $11 billion.

01:08:49.060 If you had saved the company and just sold it?

01:08:51.160 Well, if I did the usual.

01:08:52.300 Right.

01:08:53.060 And maybe he's right.

01:08:54.940 I don't understand the analysis.

01:08:56.780 Right.

01:08:57.280 But I don't know what I would do with that.

01:08:59.820 $11 billion?

01:09:01.080 Yeah.

01:09:01.640 Yeah.

01:09:01.800 What would you even do it?

01:09:02.620 How many, yeah, because how much money can you put in your bank?

01:09:06.860 Well, I don't think about it.

01:09:09.600 There are some luxuries I like, but I don't own a car.

01:09:14.000 Really?

01:09:14.160 Frankly, between the subway and Uber, cabs, or Lyft, that's what I need.

01:09:21.560 Yeah.

01:09:22.340 And, again, this is not altruistic or anything like that.

01:09:25.880 This is just being sensible.

01:09:29.040 And altruistic, just so our listeners know.

01:09:31.280 Altruistic means that you sometimes value helping other people more than yourself.

01:09:37.640 Okay.

01:09:38.100 It's the Bible thing.

01:09:39.820 Right.

01:09:40.380 And I agree.

01:09:41.840 I just, my variation of have enough to be comfortable and to indulge your family, maybe friends sometimes, and then better to give stuff away.

01:09:56.300 It's a difficult balance because the future is unpredictable, and I guess it's gotten more unpredictable.

01:10:02.340 But there are people who need a lot of where I can help without digging into my personal stuff.

01:10:10.740 Yeah.

01:10:11.240 Understood.

01:10:11.740 Yeah.

01:10:11.840 I just wanted to know.

01:10:12.720 Because, yeah, sometimes I forget, and sometimes maybe some of our listeners forget.

01:10:15.780 Did you ever feel like other tech companies, even though they were probably, I bet, secretly jealous, looked down at Craigslist because it was this, like, what was that like?

01:10:26.640 I just wonder.

01:10:27.360 Oh, they've, they're, they're quite explicit.

01:10:30.540 They don't, it's not a secret.

01:10:32.100 They don't like this model we have of doing well by doing good.

01:10:38.940 Sometimes, let's say they're not respectful of it, and that's okay.

01:10:44.160 Yeah.

01:10:44.380 The thing is, I remember what I learned in Sunday school, and people often forget, and, again, not pious of me or anything like that.

01:10:54.100 No, I think it's fair to stand up for also what you were aiming for.

01:10:57.740 Well, I've met a bunch of rich people.

01:11:00.800 None of them are all that happy.

01:11:04.220 Yeah.

01:11:04.440 And, yeah, having too much money is a, is a big trap, and you get surrounded by people, by yes men, and you get insulated from the needs of regular people, and that does some real damage.

01:11:25.780 How do you keep yourself balanced from that?

01:11:27.820 Yeah, because it's interesting, because you seem like someone who would have a fair answer to what are some of the side effects, the negative side effects of, well, the deal is that it, of money, of having some money, you know, or coming into some money.

01:11:41.780 Yeah, the deal is to be a little bit as cheap as I was when I grew up in the 50s, and to do things for yourself or by yourself, like, especially going across town, I don't need to take a car.

01:11:59.160 The subway is usually better, and so I do that, although I did get here on a limo because someone else paid for it.

01:12:06.860 Yeah.

01:12:07.600 And they really wanted to.

01:12:09.680 Good.

01:12:10.120 So the deal is that, and I, now and then, I, like, will go to a fancy dinner.

01:12:16.720 Oh, yeah, that's nice.

01:12:17.620 You have to treat yourself to good food.

01:12:19.560 The thing is that you could find good food a lot more cheaply and with a little bit more fun, and so a lot of those things I just don't, I just don't get, and I wouldn't mind having a smaller house,

01:12:38.020 but the wife's side of the family is very, very large.

01:12:43.120 Yeah.

01:12:43.720 I have a one nephew and one niece.

01:12:46.880 The nephew just got married, and I had to attend that one.

01:12:50.440 Yeah.

01:12:50.660 However, my, on my wife's side, we have 20 nephew and nieces.

01:12:57.380 Oh, that's too many.

01:12:58.260 Well, it mostly means that I've learned to control my language.

01:13:02.040 Yeah.

01:13:02.580 Because I don't want to, I don't want to catch shit from any of my relatives.

01:13:07.540 Yeah.

01:13:07.820 And it works out pretty well.

01:13:11.160 Typically, I know, as they say, that when the kid is allowed to watch HBO, I'm allowed to use saltier languages.

01:13:20.100 Oh, yeah.

01:13:20.800 I like that, buddy.

01:13:22.220 Yeah, only salt in our languages.

01:13:24.080 Yeah, I was just wondering, what was, was there one thing, like it was, whether it was something like a, like a, like a specific Leonard Cohen piece, a record that he made, that he'd autograph, was there one nice thing you bought for yourself that, what was something that was meaningful to you?

01:13:43.420 I bought some of the prints that he made.

01:13:46.020 Oh, you did?

01:13:46.640 Okay.

01:13:46.840 He's an artist, for real.

01:13:49.300 The thing which I regret is that around here, there was an auction of a lot of his letters and stuff.

01:13:55.800 Oh.

01:13:56.240 And I should have, I should have overindulged myself.

01:14:00.160 Yeah.

01:14:01.220 But I, it was the first auction I actually seriously participated in.

01:14:05.760 And I just didn't, I just didn't get anything.

01:14:09.600 Yeah, man.

01:14:10.540 I don't recognize it.

01:14:11.520 I didn't have anything in color.

01:14:12.960 I did is a black and white prints and you're heading into some of the ones that just passed.

01:14:18.580 The ones in the middle right now, two of them, I think I have.

01:14:22.740 Wow.

01:14:23.180 That's cool.

01:14:24.380 Yeah.

01:14:24.820 Especially the one that's exactly what I have.

01:14:27.620 Really?

01:14:28.420 Yeah.

01:14:28.960 And I may have that one on a t-shirt.

01:14:31.440 Wow.

01:14:32.560 Yeah.

01:14:32.960 Yeah.

01:14:33.180 Something like that's nice, man.

01:14:34.720 Especially if it's art or something like that.

01:14:36.500 It's like, you know, if I could go back in time, there was like a time, one time I was

01:14:40.700 in, I was in Tanzania, you know, and I was doing a Mount Kilimanjaro.

01:14:47.540 Okay.

01:14:48.000 Right.

01:14:48.680 And we, and afterwards we went someplace and they had a piece of art in there and it was

01:14:53.300 like $500.

01:14:54.760 Right.

01:14:55.040 And I could spend like maybe $300, but I wished I'd have spent, cause going like, it was

01:15:00.880 15 years ago and it's like, you know, the $200 didn't, wouldn't have changed my life that

01:15:05.300 much.

01:15:05.640 You know, it was a lot of money at the time, but it's like, I didn't even think about it

01:15:09.140 two weeks later or four or two months later, you know?

01:15:11.420 So I just wished that I would have, cause I really liked the painting, you know, I was

01:15:15.120 like, God, I just, and I, sometimes I wish like every now and then there's little things

01:15:19.640 like that.

01:15:19.960 I wish I'd have gotten like a nice piece of art or something, you know?

01:15:22.880 Yeah.

01:15:23.120 Uh, and the, uh, let's see, on my side of the, uh, the house, that's the, uh, biggest

01:15:29.040 investment I've made in art.

01:15:30.920 Uh, my wife was an art major, so she knows this stuff and a lot of it these days is a

01:15:36.140 cheap at auction and she's a good at that.

01:15:39.080 Yeah.

01:15:39.560 She's gotten good at a number of things, including, uh, free upgrades while flying.

01:15:44.420 Oh yeah.

01:15:44.760 It's a deal.

01:15:45.300 That's her new, uh, hobby.

01:15:46.640 Oh yeah.

01:15:46.920 And she's good at it.

01:15:50.120 Um, I'm trying to think of something else.

01:15:52.880 Um, were there other, so, so what Craigslist was kind of the, the, the stepchild of the

01:16:00.120 tech industry in a weird way.

01:16:01.480 Was it looked like that?

01:16:02.780 Cause I could imagine how jealous, cause here's people putting billions and millions of dollars

01:16:07.860 in a building, this thing, this new Avenue and all these venture capitalists and stuff

01:16:12.300 like that.

01:16:12.740 And then they, all this advertising and here you are with this basic kind of peer to peer.

01:16:18.560 How can I offer something that could potentially help my neighbor or connect to neighbors that

01:16:23.100 could use something?

01:16:24.480 Yeah.

01:16:24.620 We've always been an outlier as one person put it.

01:16:27.860 We're one of the few, uh, ungentrified sites on the net.

01:16:32.140 Yeah.

01:16:32.540 Um, and I guess we, uh, like it that way.

01:16:36.140 Nothing has, not everything has to be expensive or fancy.

01:16:40.380 Yeah.

01:16:41.200 To give credit to a site I consider, uh, ungentrified, that's a Wikipedia.

01:16:47.180 Wikipedia is where facts go to live.

01:16:49.980 And in the long run, Wikipedia, I think is the most important of all sites.

01:16:56.120 I work with him and even in New York, I'm working with their, uh, local chapter to, uh, give

01:17:03.820 classes, uh, Wikipedia for beginners.

01:17:06.360 Really?

01:17:06.960 Well, when you get to write an article or change an article that gives you a lot of power,

01:17:13.120 well, in a small way to, uh, determine how people think of things, you get to write history.

01:17:21.460 Oh, and some of it's not true.

01:17:22.780 Like there's stuff on my Wikipedia, like attaching me to like a part of my fan, like, um, like

01:17:29.020 my, they have my fan, half my family members wrong on it and stuff.

01:17:32.140 And it like puts me in a, it's crazy.

01:17:33.660 I'm like, all right.

01:17:34.700 The deal, unlike newspapers, well, they don't correct themselves normally, especially not

01:17:40.300 in a big way.

01:17:41.260 But in Wikipedia, you can do that.

01:17:44.560 And basically you, uh, can get a good, uh, citation, some evidence of what's right and

01:17:51.940 wrong and then send it to someone who knows how to edit it.

01:17:56.120 And they can do it.

01:17:57.080 They can do that.

01:17:58.280 Oh, dang.

01:17:58.660 And, uh, yeah, you guys, uh, know how to get hold of me.

01:18:03.120 Okay.

01:18:03.400 And then I, I know I can get hold of someone who can, who knows how to do the edits.

01:18:09.340 At least how to do it.

01:18:10.200 I have not gone to the class yet.

01:18:12.100 Okay.

01:18:12.400 And, uh, yeah, the deal is that the system isn't perfect, but it's better than anything

01:18:18.980 anyone else has tried.

01:18:20.620 Yeah, it's true.

01:18:21.400 And things do get fixed.

01:18:23.500 It may not happen as fast as anyone wants.

01:18:27.040 Um, but again, there's things, uh, let's say in the, uh, newspaper of record and things

01:18:34.600 which I know are wrong and which have been presented to them and they're just not going

01:18:40.100 to fix it and that's, uh, they don't want to, uh, I don't understand the reason.

01:18:45.280 They want to shape history sometimes you think?

01:18:47.100 Well, the deal is they, uh, some, you know, they were brought something which was wrong.

01:18:53.940 It was proven to be wrong.

01:18:56.100 And they, uh, they say they weren't going to be, uh, truth vigilantes.

01:19:00.700 And I, I guess I, uh, disagree.

01:19:04.040 Yeah.

01:19:04.760 Yeah.

01:19:05.160 That's interesting.

01:19:06.120 Well, that's a big thing about information now.

01:19:08.120 It's like, it's something I worry about with AI because if there's, and even just the history

01:19:14.280 of the web, like things in the history of the web, because people can alter that over

01:19:17.860 time.

01:19:18.540 Uh, there's a big problems with that.

01:19:21.240 Now, uh, a number of AI systems are feeding on the output of other AI systems, which could

01:19:28.400 be hallucinating or it could be if you train, uh, yeah, well, that's one way to do that.

01:19:35.440 And I like the idea of, uh, really good AI replacing or supplementing search, but I, uh, um, I worry

01:19:47.060 about that also because even if I just casually screw around, I can, uh, get the AI systems to

01:19:55.380 produce wrong information.

01:19:56.600 And I talk about it with some of the people at these companies and hope that, uh, they

01:20:05.060 get it right.

01:20:05.880 I do have a lot of hope for AI doing customer service because if it's done with commitment,

01:20:11.880 if it's done right, um, it can be done much better because sometimes like you call up for

01:20:19.800 a customer service, you get a call center someplace where they just don't know how to do it.

01:20:25.800 They don't know.

01:20:26.640 And I try to be kind to people who have been effectively sabotaged by their management.

01:20:34.340 Sometimes I, uh, become less impatient than I should be.

01:20:39.480 Yeah.

01:20:40.120 Oh yeah.

01:20:40.880 Oh, you'll call a customer service and they're like, we don't even know what you're talking

01:20:44.080 about, but they still answer the phone.

01:20:45.500 I'm like, well, who are you?

01:20:46.800 Yeah.

01:20:47.720 And, uh, yeah.

01:20:49.160 Instead of complaining about that, I'm trying to talk about it and I am putting my money where

01:20:55.280 my mouth is like for consumer reports, which I'm involved with and working with a lot.

01:21:00.780 With the magazine website?

01:21:01.900 Yeah.

01:21:02.180 Okay.

01:21:02.660 Because they're a trustworthy.

01:21:04.120 Uh, and the idea is that, yeah, I would enjoy working with an AI system, which would be responsive

01:21:13.580 and give me good information.

01:21:15.440 Uh, and even if it can't, maybe it would kick it to a person who might have to do research,

01:21:22.360 but at least they would be good at it.

01:21:24.560 Uh, understood.

01:21:26.060 Uh, yeah, I have one more.

01:21:26.960 I actually have a question about that, but I want to remember to ask this.

01:21:29.880 How did Craigslist make money?

01:21:31.460 Like, Oh, oddly enough, since we run very lean, Jim runs as very lean.

01:21:37.860 And even though we minimally charge that makes enough because we're not, we're not expected

01:21:45.680 to produce great results for VCs.

01:21:49.260 For venture capitalists.

01:21:50.620 Yeah.

01:21:50.760 So you don't have these, you don't have these money guys, like I need my return.

01:21:54.360 Right.

01:21:54.900 Uh, if no one's invested millions in us, we don't have to go public.

01:21:59.020 Like no one's looking to get, uh, uh, billions and, uh, I'm, uh, happy with the, uh, current

01:22:06.980 results.

01:22:07.680 Yeah.

01:22:08.160 The future is, is scary sometimes, but this works out pretty well.

01:22:13.680 You've also talked a lot about, yeah, that's your water.

01:22:16.060 Yeah.

01:22:16.360 Thank you.

01:22:17.200 Um, I have just like one or two more questions.

01:22:19.160 Um,

01:22:19.360 Sure.

01:22:22.760 Can you get that or I can get it for you?

01:22:25.960 I'm stubborn.

01:22:27.260 You're stubborn?

01:22:28.000 I am stubborn.

01:22:29.020 Oh my God, dude.

01:22:32.800 You're crazy, Craig, because I've never heard somebody.

01:22:38.080 Imagine I'm trying to open a water, right?

01:22:40.120 I can't open it.

01:22:43.880 And then I say, I'm stubborn.

01:22:46.300 Like I'm stubborn.

01:22:48.520 I don't know.

01:22:49.640 It didn't even make sense.

01:22:50.920 To me, it was very, that was very funny.

01:22:54.820 Well, you're like, I can't open it.

01:22:56.100 And I was like, I don't know if you could open it out.

01:22:58.400 I was just trying to, I don't know.

01:23:00.120 But I was like, oh, can I help you?

01:23:01.720 And then you're like, I'm stubborn.

01:23:03.160 But to me, in my head, I was like, he can't open it.

01:23:06.280 But he just, the bottle's stubborn.

01:23:10.060 Anyway, this didn't make any sense.

01:23:11.400 Well, my, my deal is that as an old man, I'm happy when I can still do some things.

01:23:16.580 Oh, I see what you're saying.

01:23:18.480 Um, you've talked a lot about independent journalism, right?

01:23:21.500 And that's something that, like I've read anyway, is near and dear to your outlook in the world.

01:23:29.500 Okay.

01:23:30.100 Well, what we learned in U.S. history, in this high school class, is that a free and trustworthy press is just required to keep a republic alive.

01:23:42.260 And the whole media system is fractured in all sorts of unpredictable ways.

01:23:48.380 You're part of that.

01:23:49.660 I'm a lesser part of it.

01:23:51.500 And I don't know what to do now, except that I try to support things that I know work, like the, uh, the journalism school at the City University of New York.

01:24:01.760 Okay.

01:24:02.600 And Wikipedia is now modern journalism.

01:24:05.700 There are other things that I try to help, but, uh, uh, I'm confused and I'm kind of paralyzed around a lot of this.

01:24:14.200 So I did a lot in the past, but these days I just trying to focus in those areas

01:24:19.660 where I can help Americans defend the country because that's a well-defined, uh, good, which we need in a big way right now.

01:24:29.920 And like, uh, uh, service members, active or veteran and their families have given up a lot for us and we don't treat them right.

01:24:39.980 So I could do something about that.

01:24:42.020 Uh, cyber warfare is a thing and it needs help because the government can do some stuff, but everyone needs to play a role.

01:24:51.300 Like in World War II, everyone needs to, uh, harden their systems a little bit depending on how much of a, uh, target you are.

01:25:00.600 Yeah.

01:25:00.800 It's funny.

01:25:01.140 I didn't realize until you said some of those things, like what if suddenly all of our, uh, cars were compromised or half of them or all of our ovens were compromised to the point where they started fires in all of our homes.

01:25:11.120 You know, um, I was just kind of fascinating to me, you know, um, well, it means also I've read too much science fiction in my time, but if, uh, if 1% of those systems were compromised, that alone is a big problem.

01:25:27.540 Yeah.

01:25:28.080 And we don't even realize it.

01:25:29.380 Um, were there other, uh, businesses that you tried to start before or after?

01:25:34.460 Uh, no, I am not a real businessman.

01:25:37.620 It's been a happy accident.

01:25:39.380 Um, I'm like, uh, any success I've had has been by accidentally being in the right time at the right place.

01:25:47.520 And that makes me the farest scump of the internet.

01:25:51.500 But also with the right attitude to bring one person to another, you know, try to keep the golden rule in your mind.

01:25:58.120 Things you learned from Sunday school.

01:26:00.280 Um, what about, are your parents pretty proud of your parents still alive, Greg?

01:26:05.980 Uh, they passed long ago.

01:26:07.980 Oh, they did.

01:26:08.260 I'm sure they, uh, would be.

01:26:11.120 I, uh, know that my high school history teacher, uh, learned about his contributions to all my stuff.

01:26:19.240 He, uh, heard about it, uh, when he, while he was still around and that was a big deal.

01:26:24.720 Oh, that probably meant a lot, huh?

01:26:25.880 Yeah.

01:26:26.440 And well, cause teachers work hard for little pay.

01:26:29.460 Oh yeah.

01:26:29.880 So anything, uh, anytime they have any long-term effect is a big deal.

01:26:35.560 Yeah.

01:26:36.240 Yeah.

01:26:36.560 It's so funny.

01:26:37.220 I like, I still keep in touch with a lot of my teachers, you know, it's important to me.

01:26:41.780 I, uh, should, but at my age, there may not be many left.

01:26:45.320 Well, that's why we got to get that Ouija board going.

01:26:49.520 Yes.

01:26:49.860 You know, I think that's the next level.

01:26:51.900 Um, what are some, what are some small, before you leave, Craig, what are some goals in your life like right now?

01:26:56.260 I know you've talked about some of the kind of work oriented and giving back.

01:26:59.560 Um, are there any kind of personal goals or are there anything like, um, I don't know.

01:27:04.840 Is there any kind of goals you have, even if they're just like human to yourself, things you still want to learn or do?

01:27:11.160 Professionally, I want, uh, cybersecurity to be a household word that everyone takes seriously.

01:27:18.460 Uh, personally, uh, I'll be, uh, glad if the dentist tomorrow uses nitrous oxide.

01:27:24.980 Yeah.

01:27:25.500 And I will make the same joke over again.

01:27:29.440 That is, can I take the bottle home?

01:27:31.920 And he, uh, will refuse me.

01:27:35.260 But we like to do that.

01:27:36.680 No, we do like to do that.

01:27:38.300 Um, I think that's good guys.

01:27:40.340 Pretty good.

01:27:40.940 Is there anything else that you want to share that's important to you?

01:27:43.360 Uh, I think you got it all.

01:27:44.920 And I think people will be tired of hearing from me after 90 minutes.

01:27:48.980 Well, look, I do know if you, if you, if you really want to get some nitrous oxide, you might be able to find some on Craigslist.

01:27:54.680 I, I've, I've been advised by my medical team against it.

01:27:59.240 All I can remember, well, for sure is, uh, like the Batman says, I'm not the nerd you want, but I'm the nerd you got.

01:28:10.240 Man, I don't know how, somehow I almost get your sense of humor now, Craig.

01:28:13.900 It's very interesting.

01:28:14.960 That, uh, that might be tragic.

01:28:16.620 Yeah.

01:28:16.820 Well, thank you, man.

01:28:18.420 Thank you for, uh, I like, I just like some, I like your initial goals of like, my goal is to help one person find something.

01:28:24.900 This person's in need.

01:28:26.080 This person might have this.

01:28:27.320 How can I be of service there?

01:28:28.640 Um, learning when you notice that I'm not a good manager of this, so I need to get some help here, right?

01:28:34.340 It's not a strong suit of mine, maybe this world, but the customer relations is a strong suit of mine, you know?

01:28:39.580 And, and that's interesting just because, you know, sometimes we all feel like we have to do everything in different spaces.

01:28:45.580 And then, um, yeah, and I'm glad you find a lady along the way.

01:28:49.040 How long have you, how long has your marriage been now?

01:28:51.180 Uh, married 12 and together 20.

01:28:53.580 That's great.

01:28:54.060 And, and it's good that I'm better at remembering those dates than she is.

01:28:57.820 Yeah.

01:28:58.140 Amen.

01:28:59.140 Um, Craig Neumar, thank you so much, man.

01:29:02.700 Hey, it's my pleasure.

01:29:03.540 I appreciate your time.

01:29:05.480 Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves.

01:29:11.420 I must be cornerstone.

01:29:16.780 Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind.

01:29:21.380 I found I can feel it.

01:29:24.060 I'll be in my bones.

01:29:26.440 But it's gonna take.

01:29:28.100 Amen.

This Past Weekend with Theo Von - December 12, 2024

E550 Craigslist Founder Craig Newmark

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