This Past Weekend with Theo Von - E562 Richard Reeves

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00:00:29.760 Today's guest is a writer and a social scientist.

00:00:33.000 He's also a dual citizen.

00:00:35.140 He's the president of the American Institute for Boys and Men.

00:00:40.000 I'm grateful that he's here today.

00:00:42.320 Today's guest is Richard Rees.

00:00:45.940 Richard Rees, thanks for joining us today, brother.

00:01:03.520 Yeah, I'm really thrilled to be here.

00:01:05.100 Yeah, we appreciate it, man.

00:01:06.060 You want to move that in a little bit for me if you don't mind?

00:01:07.680 Yeah, sure.

00:01:08.640 And you are British.

00:01:12.480 By birth.

00:01:13.300 I'm American now.

00:01:14.920 Okay, you're American now.

00:01:15.680 Yeah, I became a U.S. citizen in 2016.

00:01:18.240 So I'm very, very proud of this country.

00:01:20.140 Oh, welcome.

00:01:20.960 Nice.

00:01:21.460 Thank you.

00:01:21.920 And you're the president for the American Institute for Boys and Men.

00:01:24.720 Yeah, new think tank.

00:01:26.340 Like, God knows we need more think tanks, right?

00:01:28.800 That's what America's really clamoring for.

00:01:30.600 It's like more scholars sitting in think tanks, producing charts.

00:01:33.420 Right.

00:01:33.720 Honestly, I was in another think tank for 10 years before that, the Brookings Institution.

00:01:37.980 Huge think tank in Washington, D.C.

00:01:39.940 Great job.

00:01:41.120 And I got to tell you, it was not in my life plan.

00:01:44.600 To be in a think tank?

00:01:45.600 To create another one.

00:01:46.640 No, actually, being in a think tank is great.

00:01:48.660 Yeah.

00:01:48.780 But what that means is you basically just get paid good money to write stuff and say stuff

00:01:53.340 that you're interested in.

00:01:54.300 And what happens to a lot of that information from think tanks?

00:01:57.080 Well, that depends who you ask.

00:01:58.320 If you ask the critics, they say it just gathers dust on people's shelves.

00:02:03.380 Right?

00:02:03.640 Maybe like two people in Congress read it.

00:02:06.400 One New York Times journalist reads it.

00:02:08.260 And so there is this whole thing now that think tanks used to produce policy papers

00:02:12.080 and then grateful legislators, members of Congress, would say, thank you.

00:02:17.080 We'll go and turn that into a law.

00:02:19.080 And ta-da! 1.00

00:02:20.080 Right.

00:02:20.440 That's not how it works anymore.

00:02:22.000 And so the whole question of how do you influence law?

00:02:25.880 How do you influence policy?

00:02:27.400 I think it's a really big question now.

00:02:29.460 And so there's a big question mark against this whole idea about quotes think tank.

00:02:33.180 I certainly didn't plan to start a new one.

00:02:35.780 But it seems like this one is important.

00:02:38.800 And that's one of the reasons, yeah, that I wanted to get to talk to you today.

00:02:41.260 Because, you know, a lot of our listeners are men and boys.

00:02:44.920 I know Scott Galloway was on and he had mentioned that you were kind of his godfather of information

00:02:50.520 or somebody that he really looked up to, you know.

00:02:52.280 And I did also see you were born on the 4th of July.

00:02:55.660 Is that right?

00:02:56.240 Correct.

00:02:56.800 Do they kick you out of Britain if you're on the one?

00:02:58.900 That would be great.

00:02:59.540 I think it should just have a rule, right?

00:03:00.860 Everyone who's born on the 4th of July gets automatic U.S. citizenship,

00:03:04.420 but then gets deported from the U.K., right?

00:03:08.080 But it's kind of weird because I've always had that.

00:03:11.020 And then I actually came to the U.S. in the 90s for the Guardian newspaper.

00:03:15.100 I was a journalist for quite a few years.

00:03:17.480 I just always loved America.

00:03:19.080 Ended up marrying an American.

00:03:20.820 Do you think it was because of your birthday at all or no?

00:03:22.500 You know.

00:03:23.520 Because it's just interesting.

00:03:24.840 It would sound weird to say yes, wouldn't it?

00:03:27.240 But if you think there's no such thing as a coincidence,

00:03:30.240 I've always loved the fact that I was born on the 4th of July and now I'm here.

00:03:34.280 It's great.

00:03:35.080 Everyone has a big party for my birthday.

00:03:37.880 And actually, one of the things that I've really thought about as an immigrant, right?

00:03:41.360 And I don't, when you say immigrant, you probably don't think of someone like me,

00:03:44.640 but I'm a proud immigrant.

00:03:45.860 Is that people who are born here don't actually appreciate what it means sometimes to be a citizen.

00:03:52.360 And my citizenship ceremony, which I did in a hurry, actually,

00:03:55.900 because I wanted to be able to vote and wanted to get into the whole civic life.

00:04:01.300 I was surrounded by people in tears.

00:04:04.140 Really?

00:04:04.620 Yeah.

00:04:04.900 There's people from Iran.

00:04:06.300 There's people from Afghanistan, Iraq, whatever.

00:04:09.100 Refugees.

00:04:10.040 A whole bunch of different people.

00:04:11.040 Some people from Mexico.

00:04:11.820 Mexico, and they're waving their flags, saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

00:04:16.380 You're welcomed by the president.

00:04:17.880 And there wasn't really a dry eye laugh by the end of it.

00:04:21.860 And so I actually now think that every high schooler in the U.S. should go to a citizenship ceremony.

00:04:27.860 That's a great idea.

00:04:28.800 Just experience it.

00:04:29.560 Because I don't think if you're born here, you can take it a bit for granted what it means to be a citizen.

00:04:35.100 But to go and experience what it's like for people to become a citizen, I expected it to be more.

00:04:41.240 I had a green card.

00:04:42.540 And I thought, yeah, but I want to be a citizen as well.

00:04:44.740 I actually was incredibly moved by the whole experience.

00:04:47.400 And, yeah, you don't think about the gift of your own citizenship, right?

00:04:51.380 And you don't think about what others go through to get it.

00:04:53.960 And, yeah, they used to have – I know whenever I was growing up, you had the Pledge of Allegiance.

00:04:58.480 There was definitely a lot more – even though the Pledge of Allegiance was like a small thing, it's one of those traditional things that made you feel like a part of something, right?

00:05:06.300 It was like a traditional practice that created a commonality between kids.

00:05:12.060 Because we kind of thought it was lame sometimes, but sometimes you didn't, you know, like at certain points of the year or if certain things were going on in the culture, it meant more to you.

00:05:19.880 But, yeah, that's –

00:05:20.360 And it's also just a ritual.

00:05:21.960 Yeah.

00:05:22.280 And we've come to undervalue ritual.

00:05:24.960 Oh, they erode from our society.

00:05:27.060 The point of a ritual, right?

00:05:28.340 It's not just like you can overthink what the words mean.

00:05:31.060 You can overthink exactly what it means.

00:05:33.500 But there's something about just the ritual of it.

00:05:36.060 So my son is at the University of Tennessee, and he explains –

00:05:40.060 Go Vols, baby.

00:05:40.900 Yeah.

00:05:41.160 But actually when his friends come down to a Tennessee game, and they're, say, at a Northeastern college or a small liberal arts college, what really strikes them is less the game.

00:05:50.900 And it's more the fact that there's the Pledge of Allegiance, that there's a prayer, that the jets go over, that there's fireworks, that they come out through the tea.

00:05:57.420 There's a whole bunch of ritual around it, which is actually really beautiful.

00:06:02.240 And I think sometimes we overthink the content of the ritual and don't actually just recognize it's the fact of the ritual that really, really matters.

00:06:09.260 Yeah, it's like, yeah, people start looking at, well, what are the words of the Pledge of Allegiance?

00:06:12.920 It didn't matter.

00:06:13.680 It was just that we got up.

00:06:14.640 Do I mean every word of this?

00:06:15.760 Right.

00:06:16.200 That's kind of another point.

00:06:16.600 We got up and we did it together.

00:06:18.020 And I don't think there's anything wrong.

00:06:19.400 If you live in a country and you're a member of it, to pledge allegiance to that country, I feel like –

00:06:24.680 Yeah, correct.

00:06:25.440 In fact.

00:06:25.780 Because otherwise, then what are you?

00:06:27.620 You're just a passerby?

00:06:30.040 Are you like working for another country?

00:06:32.380 Like what's your real modus operandi then, I guess?

00:06:36.260 I have one friend actually who's from Israel.

00:06:38.600 And when he came, he gave up his Israeli citizenship because he believes that you cannot have more than one citizenship.

00:06:47.120 You cannot have – dual citizenship is a contradiction because you can only be pledging your allegiance to one sovereign nation.

00:06:54.120 I love that.

00:06:54.660 I love that too and I will confess that I have kept my British passport.

00:06:58.520 Oh, you have?

00:06:59.080 Yeah.

00:06:59.460 So if you had to choose, what do you do then?

00:07:01.020 Oh, U.S.

00:07:01.680 No question.

00:07:02.600 Wow.

00:07:03.960 Yeah.

00:07:04.480 I get it.

00:07:04.980 I mean there's a reason why everyone really wants to come here.

00:07:07.200 Yeah, dude.

00:07:07.620 The Rock lives here.

00:07:09.200 Right.

00:07:09.880 You know?

00:07:10.500 Yes.

00:07:11.100 I mean that's –

00:07:11.860 Is that the main reason people come here?

00:07:13.280 No, I don't think so.

00:07:14.460 But that would be a great idea if every class had to go watch that, had to go watch that ceremony.

00:07:19.040 They always need volunteers of them as well to like help out with the paperwork and stuff like that.

00:07:22.640 And so you could just have like some going every time.

00:07:25.840 Like I just think it would be really nice.

00:07:27.060 Oh, I think it's a great idea.

00:07:27.940 Like high school, like – and I would just say to anyone who's listening, right, if you're thinking about a good, cool thing to do, like volunteer at your local citizenship center and watch the people go through the process of becoming a U.S. citizen.

00:07:38.800 And that might make you appreciate it a bit more.

00:07:40.280 I can't believe that it's not mandatory like in classes or in school that you have to go see that.

00:07:46.740 Maybe that's something that one of these think tanks could change, you know?

00:07:49.320 Well, I proposed it, but let's see if it will change.

00:07:51.880 But we can do it ourselves as well.

00:07:53.260 Yeah, we could.

00:07:54.060 There's nothing stopping us.

00:07:55.260 You're the president for the American Institute for Men and Boys.

00:07:58.480 So what is that institute?

00:08:00.720 So it's a research and advocacy organization.

00:08:03.220 So what we're trying to do is – the basic premise here is there are a lot of ways in which boys and men are struggling in our country right now.

00:08:11.540 And there are no institutions, there's no organizations whose job it is to basically wake up every day and draw attention to that with data, with facts, in a way that will hopefully raise awareness of it.

00:08:24.480 It's this huge asymmetry.

00:08:26.220 I really noticed it in the pandemic.

00:08:28.860 So when the pandemic hit, there were a lot of reports about how it was going to affect women and girls.

00:08:35.100 There was a lot of concern about employment, domestic violence, a whole bunch of real concerns.

00:08:40.240 And a lot of press coverage for that.

00:08:42.000 And those were perfectly legitimate, coming from women's think tanks, from the UN, from the White House, et cetera.

00:08:48.880 But I noticed that actually the college enrollment for men had dropped seven times more than for women in the first year of the pandemic.

00:08:57.120 Like seven times difference in the drop.

00:09:00.100 Is that true?

00:09:01.600 It is true.

00:09:02.680 Then the numbers got a little bit revised.

00:09:04.800 And it's partly because the men were more likely to be going to like trade school and stuff, which you just couldn't do online.

00:09:10.560 But it wasn't just that.

00:09:11.860 It was just – it hit male education harder than female education, number one. 1.00

00:09:17.660 Number two, men were dying a lot more from COVID.

00:09:21.220 COVID was killing a lot more men.

00:09:22.580 You mean the actual disease or just like the loneliness or the –

00:09:26.600 No, the disease.

00:09:27.100 The disconnection.

00:09:27.680 Oh, the disease.

00:09:28.200 Men were much more vulnerable to COVID.

00:09:31.120 Last time I checked, we'd lost at least 100,000 more men than women.

00:09:35.100 And that's not to be expected because actually it affected older people, right?

00:09:40.020 COVID killed older people a lot more.

00:09:42.120 And there are more older women. 1.00

00:09:44.040 So if anything, you just think it would go the other way, right?

00:09:45.960 But it didn't because actually men were much, much more vulnerable to the disease.

00:09:50.400 And no one was really researching that.

00:09:53.500 No one was producing reports on that.

00:09:55.240 No one was writing articles about that.

00:09:57.220 And it really occurred to me that that was because it was no one's job, right?

00:10:02.740 There wasn't an American Institute for Boys and Men.

00:10:05.120 But I can assure you that if we'd existed then, we'd have been pushing out lots of information about how COVID was affecting boys' education and men's education and also killing men in massively higher numbers.

00:10:17.040 Well, for sure, because I think also you – I don't know if ever in my life there's been like a lot of organizations where it's like, hey, men need help, you know?

00:10:28.000 It's like everything is that women need help with this, children, you know, and certainly that makes sense. 1.00

00:10:34.840 I always think back to like women and children first, like when the Titanic was sinking or something, you know, in something like that. 0.68

00:10:39.400 It's like women and children first, right? 1.00

00:10:41.220 And that's probably what most men would want as well.

00:10:43.280 But at a certain point, you're like, hey, we exist.

00:10:46.420 What are we doing here, you know?

00:10:47.960 Yeah.

00:10:49.080 What was your like – what was your first relationship like with your dad or something like when you were – like how did you – like just so we have some personal attachment to this conversation as well.

00:10:59.860 What was it like with your dad when you were a kid?

00:11:02.300 Because that's usually people's first male role model, yeah?

00:11:04.900 Yeah, my dad was amazing and just amazing and is an amazing granddad to my sons as well.

00:11:13.800 And so I just – I was given the greatest gift that I think anybody can ever get, which is two parents who both loved me, still together, still loving us.

00:11:28.240 And that sense of – somebody wants – this sounds like a bit of a –

00:11:31.900 It's crazy that I'm shocked, you know, that it's – it's crazy that it's becoming this world that that's a shocking thing.

00:11:36.800 Yeah, and it's not like – not like they were perfect, to be clear.

00:11:40.160 But it's like – like parenting is never going to be about perfection.

00:11:43.980 It's always going to be about the arc, right?

00:11:46.120 It's like a – I think you almost get like a parental grade point average, right, across the whole decades it takes to raise a kid, right?

00:11:53.800 You're going to have bad days and good days and you're going to get some days where you get a really bad grade, isn't it, right?

00:11:58.640 Dad got an F today, right?

00:12:01.260 He like said some stuff he shouldn't have said, did some stuff he shouldn't have done to me.

00:12:05.600 But then like you got a B the next day and an A.

00:12:07.700 Like what's my – overall.

00:12:09.440 And they were genuinely like amazing.

00:12:12.740 And I've come to realize that that is the most extraordinary gift.

00:12:16.460 I was going to say it sounds like a bit of a brag, but I remember –

00:12:18.620 No, I don't think so.

00:12:19.080 Someone came up to me once after I'd done a talk or something like that and –

00:12:23.120 And there's your dad right there.

00:12:24.020 Get a gander at him.

00:12:24.640 And they just –

00:12:25.520 What's his name, Phil?

00:12:26.340 David.

00:12:26.940 David, yeah.

00:12:28.060 That's a proper British name as well.

00:12:29.740 They said like this guy's dad loved him.

00:12:32.540 You can tell his dad loved him.

00:12:34.220 And I was like – so he loved you, right?

00:12:35.560 And I was like, that's so weird.

00:12:36.520 And I was like, I don't know that you can just – there's something in people, men, who were loved by their dads.

00:12:44.700 And you could never quantify that, right?

00:12:46.600 There's no chart you could ever make about that.

00:12:48.460 But I have – I've never doubted my father's love for me.

00:12:53.480 And he was a coach for us.

00:12:55.760 He taught us to swim.

00:12:56.820 He taught us to drive.

00:12:58.060 But he was also the breadwinner.

00:12:59.640 And I had this moment with my dad that made a huge impression on me where –

00:13:04.960 because of his generation, he had to be the breadwinner.

00:13:07.100 I married very young.

00:13:08.940 And he lost his job.

00:13:10.000 He became unemployed a couple of times.

00:13:11.900 He worked in manufacturing during the 80s, which was a tough time, you know, in the UK and the US.

00:13:17.780 And there was a time he was unemployed for quite a long time.

00:13:20.260 But every morning he got up and he shaved and he put on a shirt and a tie.

00:13:27.160 His concession was he didn't put a jacket on, right?

00:13:29.060 He didn't fully dress up, right?

00:13:30.840 Because he was trying to get a white-collar job.

00:13:32.760 And he had breakfast with us.

00:13:34.280 And I asked him one day.

00:13:35.400 I said, Dad, you're going into the spare room to type out, like, resumes to try and get a job.

00:13:41.220 Like, why are you shaving?

00:13:43.440 Why are you still putting a shirt on?

00:13:45.060 You don't have a job.

00:13:46.360 And he looked at me and he said, I do have a job.

00:13:49.620 My job is to get another job so that I can take care of you. 0.99

00:13:53.360 And he worked as hard at getting a job as he ever had at his job because he knew that we needed him.

00:13:59.440 And although I think that fatherhood has really changed, it's been different for me, right?

00:14:03.860 Because the economic relationship between men and women has changed so dramatically, which is a huge liberation, I think.

00:14:10.060 I was able to be a stay-at-home dad for a few years in a way that he would never have been able to do.

00:14:14.820 Wow.

00:14:15.060 So it's a different world now.

00:14:16.300 But that basic idea that, like, okay, you have this purpose in life now, which is I have to take care of you, it just changes you.

00:14:26.340 And I had that directly from my dad.

00:14:28.040 Yeah, and just seeing that example, like, okay, what does a man do every day?

00:14:30.680 He gets up.

00:14:31.560 He takes care of himself.

00:14:33.260 He clothes himself.

00:14:34.840 And he moves forward in the world in some process.

00:14:38.480 You know, like, yeah, no, I think that that's...

00:14:40.500 It took him months to find a job.

00:14:42.080 And I've never been prouder of him.

00:14:44.940 And I really realized that in retrospect.

00:14:46.820 Oh, wow.

00:14:47.680 And he passed away now?

00:14:48.840 No.

00:14:49.280 Oh, good.

00:14:49.860 My parents are in their 80s now.

00:14:51.420 They live in Wales.

00:14:52.060 I'm half Welsh.

00:14:52.980 Oh, you are?

00:14:53.680 Yeah.

00:14:54.060 And is that the bad one?

00:14:55.080 Or what's the bad one?

00:14:56.200 Bad in what way?

00:14:57.300 Yeah, I don't know.

00:14:57.920 That's a good point.

00:14:58.580 I think you'd have to specify.

00:15:00.300 Yeah, I got to look it up more.

00:15:01.180 I mean, some people would say that the Welsh are bad.

00:15:03.480 Yeah.

00:15:03.940 But I'm not going to say that.

00:15:05.600 Okay, yeah.

00:15:06.760 Okay, yeah.

00:15:07.160 The Scottish? 0.64

00:15:07.580 The Irish? 0.74

00:15:08.740 Well, the Scottish is the easy. 0.99

00:15:09.940 Yeah, everybody's like, the Scottish are over there eating their own teeth, you know? 1.00

00:15:13.400 But that's, you know...

00:15:13.860 We can agree on that.

00:15:14.780 But it's also...

00:15:15.380 Yeah, yeah, okay.

00:15:16.600 No, I love the UK because everybody just rips on the other group, you know?

00:15:21.140 Yes.

00:15:21.660 Rips on the other part of it.

00:15:22.760 It's the best.

00:15:22.820 That's true of, like, almost everywhere.

00:15:24.360 It's like everything.

00:15:25.100 It's like college football.

00:15:26.040 It's like states.

00:15:26.820 But nowhere stronger than in the UK.

00:15:28.900 No, no.

00:15:29.180 It goes deeper.

00:15:30.220 Yeah. 1.00

00:15:30.400 You go on stage in Ireland, you're like, fuck England, and they just... 1.00

00:15:33.480 They will cheer for the... 1.00

00:15:34.620 Oh, that's right.

00:15:34.980 They cheer for the other side, right?

00:15:35.960 So, like, if you're in rugby or soccer or something, like, everybody will...

00:15:40.160 It's like, if England's playing Germany, the Welsh will support the Germans, right? 0.99

00:15:46.560 I mean, and we have a history with the Germans, but it's like, even then, it's basically anybody 0.98

00:15:51.420 but England.

00:15:52.280 Oh, so the English and the Welsh are against each other even. 1.00

00:15:54.740 Oh, criks. 1.00

00:15:55.340 Oh, yes.

00:15:56.120 I didn't know that.

00:15:57.080 Yeah, not quite as much as the Scots, probably.

00:15:59.820 Yeah, for sure.

00:16:00.800 But it's...

00:16:00.840 I mean, and also, of course, they have deep histories.

00:16:03.160 I mean, it is...

00:16:03.660 Yeah, it's great.

00:16:04.080 It's the United Kingdom.

00:16:04.720 It is four nations.

00:16:06.440 Yeah.

00:16:07.240 And so there is always going to be that difference.

00:16:10.120 Yeah.

00:16:10.420 Oh, that's interesting.

00:16:11.740 Yeah.

00:16:12.160 It always just seems so much fun over there is how passionate they are about it.

00:16:15.240 That's great.

00:16:15.720 I mean, it's a kind of tribalism can be good or bad.

00:16:18.280 But the issue of...

00:16:19.800 I know you're interested in fatherhood.

00:16:21.220 Yeah, for sure.

00:16:21.800 And I was going to talk...

00:16:22.640 Yeah, and just so I'll relate my own...

00:16:26.680 Yeah, my dad was older when I was born.

00:16:29.100 My dad was 70 when I was born, so he was an older guy.

00:16:32.060 So I think I had this almost like fear all the time that my dad was going to be hurt or

00:16:39.420 die maybe, you know?

00:16:41.940 Yeah.

00:16:42.300 Because it was always just kind of scary, you know, like, you know, like he would drive

00:16:47.680 and he would ask us where we're going or if we could turn.

00:16:51.060 And I was just a kid.

00:16:52.000 I'd be standing on the passenger chair and we're standing up and like getting up and like

00:16:56.680 looking at the lights and I'd be like, it's good, you know, it's green or bad or something.

00:17:01.760 And I remember one time I got it wrong and he just drove right out.

00:17:04.280 You were literally having to be his eyes while he was driving.

00:17:06.980 Yeah, I was helping out, you know, because sometimes he would park too close under the lights

00:17:10.560 or whatever, you know.

00:17:11.480 So he'd waited at an intersection in the middle of the intersection, you know, he's just old,

00:17:14.780 you know, he was just, you know, he was like 80 something at that point.

00:17:18.100 And so it was just bizarre, you know, I think it was a very bizarre kind of like probably

00:17:23.720 fatherhood connection.

00:17:25.060 And then my parents got divorced.

00:17:26.500 And so then at that point, yeah, you kind of start to, and then my dad didn't live with

00:17:31.260 us.

00:17:31.980 And so my mom didn't want him to live with us.

00:17:34.820 And so, you know, then you're kind of like in this, you don't even realize it as a kid,

00:17:39.160 you're just a kid, but you're in this starvation space for where do you get probably role models.

00:17:45.500 Yeah.

00:17:45.720 And where do you, who do you look to, you know?

00:17:47.860 Yeah.

00:17:48.420 And I had my brother around for a couple of years and then I was like a huge wrestling

00:17:52.800 fan.

00:17:53.320 And like, I really idolized a lot of those guys.

00:17:56.620 Did you do it?

00:17:57.340 Were you a wrestler?

00:17:58.260 No, I got into steroids, but I never did the wrestling.

00:18:03.280 You did the steroid bit, but yeah.

00:18:04.900 Yeah.

00:18:05.380 Yeah.

00:18:05.760 So I did.

00:18:06.480 Yes, I guess, you know, but yeah, I mean, I remember collecting all the figurines and

00:18:10.820 we would watch it.

00:18:11.640 I had a neighbor and his dad was a, his dad was like kind of dialed in.

00:18:16.760 And so that was helpful.

00:18:17.820 What did he was almost like a dad to you as well?

00:18:21.180 Like, cause you can share it around.

00:18:22.340 I think that's part of the point.

00:18:23.280 Oh, for sure.

00:18:23.740 I think you can get your father, you can get your father little pieces from different

00:18:27.620 men, right?

00:18:28.120 You can, I believe that like, um, you had a basketball coach that, you know, showed me

00:18:32.640 like care and affection and, um, included me in things that his family was doing.

00:18:36.560 And then I ended up moving out and living with a different family when I was like 14

00:18:39.820 and that family had a stable father in the home.

00:18:42.340 And so that, uh, that helped a lot, but yeah, not trying to like make it about me.

00:18:46.720 I'm just trying to like, um, put both of our stories out there.

00:18:50.000 Yeah.

00:18:50.320 And I think it's important.

00:18:50.840 Just so we can see.

00:18:51.480 Yes.

00:18:51.660 But my, like my, one of the things my dad also did, he was a coach, like he was a, he

00:18:55.000 coached rugby and stuff.

00:18:56.480 And I've had, I think particularly in the U S I've become really interested in the role

00:19:01.280 of coaches.

00:19:01.840 So my basic view is that coaches, especially for boys, we're actually seeing like sports,

00:19:07.540 uh, is going down for boys in the U S now.

00:19:09.740 Boys are less likely to play sports than in the past.

00:19:12.340 Is that true?

00:19:12.820 Bring it up.

00:19:13.620 It's going up.

00:19:14.200 Yeah.

00:19:14.340 Yeah.

00:19:14.380 The Aspen Institute, uh, has a really good project called project play where they, they

00:19:19.240 actually track the data.

00:19:20.260 It's going up for girls and down for boys.

00:19:22.260 Now it's always been higher for boys, but sports participation is going down for boys.

00:19:27.060 One reason for that is coaches, like you need coaches to do that.

00:19:31.360 And, uh, and we can maybe get into male teachers because actually one of the things that male 1.00

00:19:35.400 teachers do, and my son has just become a teacher.

00:19:38.460 Oh, wonderful.

00:19:39.500 Yeah.

00:19:39.660 Uh, uh, he's teaching fifth grade in Baltimore and like within a day of starting someone

00:19:46.100 heard his accent because he's still got a British accent, heard his accent.

00:19:49.340 He's a soccer coach now, uh, and he actually is a good soccer player, but the point is he's

00:19:53.080 immediately a coach, right?

00:19:54.640 And I think that coaches are basically mental health professionals in disguise, right?

00:20:01.380 Uh, I think they're doing a lot of the work that you'd otherwise do in terms of mental

00:20:04.640 health.

00:20:04.940 And you can kind of see like there's, there'll be a line, uh, from, from the Aspen.

00:20:09.040 Okay.

00:20:09.520 Here we go right here.

00:20:10.020 It says, uh, oh, we have fewer boys are playing sports in 2013, half of boys age six to 17

00:20:15.120 participated regularly in sports.

00:20:16.920 According to SFIA data, only 41% of boys did in 2023.

00:20:22.800 Right.

00:20:23.220 Um, girls age six to 12 had 34% and 13 to 17 age girls were 38% played at higher levels

00:20:31.000 in 2023 than in any recent years.

00:20:33.100 So girls is going up.

00:20:34.100 Like you said, boys is going down.

00:20:35.260 Correct.

00:20:35.400 Some of that could be attributed to, to also a lot more boys are like,

00:20:38.720 they choose to become gamers and that sort of thing, but more sedentary things.

00:20:42.580 It could be, which is not necessarily a good thing.

00:20:45.120 Yeah.

00:20:45.360 I mean, ideally you'd want to do a bit of both, but then the question is like, why are

00:20:49.080 boys playing less sport than in the past?

00:20:51.400 Right.

00:20:51.700 And what is this coaching thing?

00:20:53.040 And you can't get coaches.

00:20:54.560 I'd love to see something like a coach for America program.

00:20:58.300 You know, there's this teach for America program, which gets people into teaching

00:21:01.680 because I think there's a lot of men who are struggling to know how to kind of

00:21:05.380 connect with their community or what they can do.

00:21:07.340 Oh, for sure.

00:21:07.760 Right.

00:21:07.980 Some of the older institutions, maybe they used to do that with like through church

00:21:12.260 or the scouts or whatever have maybe declined.

00:21:15.400 They have declined.

00:21:16.520 And so if there was a way to kind of plug those men into a coaching role, I think

00:21:20.000 that's important because when I, when you, when you, I mean, maybe this is your, maybe

00:21:24.520 your experience, but like, I think if you look at the, the image of a coach sitting

00:21:28.460 on a bench, like with a student, you know, a boy or a young man sitting next to him and

00:21:34.120 he's like, how are you doing?

00:21:36.060 Right.

00:21:36.520 How are things at home?

00:21:37.980 You know, how are things with your mom?

00:21:39.940 You know, et cetera.

00:21:40.860 Is you kind of, that's counseling, that's therapy, but you're just not calling it that.

00:21:47.660 Yeah.

00:21:47.900 And the other thing is critically, you're doing it shoulder to shoulder.

00:21:51.680 Do you know this thing about the difference in communication style between men and women 0.97

00:21:56.520 and boys and girls?

00:21:57.560 Like men, men go shoulder to shoulder. 0.96

00:21:59.760 Women go face to face. 0.85

00:22:00.940 It's interesting how we're set up here.

00:22:03.180 Once you've seen this, you can't unsee it.

00:22:05.500 Oh, that's interesting.

00:22:06.760 Right.

00:22:06.960 Yeah.

00:22:07.120 Because guys don't usually look at each other when they're sharing information that much.

00:22:10.380 No, because actually that's a little bit of a threatening, that's a threatening stance

00:22:14.720 for men.

00:22:15.220 Like if men go face to face, that's, that might indicate something, some aggression or some

00:22:20.200 like you're, it's a bit like you're, you're intimidating each other a little bit.

00:22:22.900 Right.

00:22:23.100 Yeah.

00:22:23.220 There's a role for that probably.

00:22:24.980 Uh, when you talk to someone, you rarely stand and look directly.

00:22:27.500 There's always a little bit of an act.

00:22:28.580 Not if you're male. 0.96

00:22:29.420 So my, we learned this the hard way, like even before I had any of the data and God,

00:22:33.540 I wish I'd had this data when we were raising our kids.

00:22:35.780 Right.

00:22:36.280 But my wife would like, our kids would come home from school, all boys. 0.96

00:22:39.840 Uh, uh, and the two that were in high school and middle school at the time, they'd come

00:22:43.020 home and they'd like sit across the breakfast bar from her.

00:22:45.500 Right.

00:22:45.720 And she'd be feeding them stuff, like she'd feeding them protein, have some protein. 0.95

00:22:49.140 And then she'd stare at them like this and be like, how was your day?

00:22:51.380 How was your day?

00:22:51.900 And they'd be like, well, I know, fine.

00:22:54.320 They'd look down fine.

00:22:55.360 Did you learn anything?

00:22:56.120 I don't know.

00:22:56.760 Like what did nothing, right?

00:22:58.200 Just nothing.

00:22:59.180 And then later on, we'd be driving with them somewhere or watching a game or video game

00:23:06.580 or just something, something like that shoulder to shoulder.

00:23:08.820 And they would say, uh, you know, this weird thing happened today, dad or mom, right?

00:23:14.080 So this girl said this thing at school today.

00:23:16.020 Huh?

00:23:16.200 Interesting.

00:23:17.180 And what we now know is that that's very, very common.

00:23:21.740 That actually the communication style that men are most comfortable with is less face

00:23:26.860 to face and it's more shoulder to shoulder.

00:23:29.420 Now think about this fishing, road trips, watching sports, sitting on the bench, shoulder

00:23:36.780 to shoulder.

00:23:37.240 It is the only explanation I have for the existence of golf.

00:23:41.920 What is golf about?

00:23:43.060 Do you play golf?

00:23:43.960 Mm-mm.

00:23:44.740 Okay, good.

00:23:45.420 I'd be willing to play it, but I just, I can't even calm down right now.

00:23:48.780 But it's like, again, men have to be doing something else and they have to be doing it

00:23:55.600 like just, so if you go to a party now, you, you, you will not be able to unsee this.

00:24:00.640 Watch how the men stand in relation to each other.

00:24:02.620 And there are people who've done whole PhDs on measuring the angle.

00:24:05.540 We always stand on a bit catty corner, like a little bit of an angle, because I thought

00:24:09.240 because to go face to face is threatening.

00:24:10.900 Now, women on the other hand, very comfortable face to face.

00:24:13.820 Walk into a coffee shop and count up how many people are sitting opposite each other, staring

00:24:18.460 each other in the face, and then see what the gender is of them.

00:24:21.400 Much more likely to be women. 0.99

00:24:22.640 Now, it's not like one is good or bad.

00:24:26.060 Right.

00:24:26.320 But what you don't want is a mental health profession, like psychology or whatever it

00:24:31.460 is, based on the presumption that we're all supposed to sit like this.

00:24:34.100 And so a lot of male therapists now, they're taking their male patients out for a walk. 0.74

00:24:37.880 That's the thing to do.

00:24:38.480 Walk and talk.

00:24:39.260 That's the best.

00:24:39.840 Walk with them.

00:24:40.460 Don't sit and stare at them.

00:24:42.240 Like, as a man.

00:24:42.540 I've been saying that for years.

00:24:43.720 As a man, it's like, we don't want that.

00:24:44.980 Yeah, Mike's girlfriend's a therapist now, and she and I, whenever we really needed to

00:24:49.940 discuss stuff, we go on a walk, because you're in motion already.

00:24:53.880 There's a part of you that feels like it's moving forward, even if you're sharing something

00:24:58.200 that's troubling, because sometimes you're sitting in a sedentary, you're just sitting

00:25:02.080 there in a room somewhere.

00:25:03.440 It's like, oh, well, you leave.

00:25:05.700 You haven't really gone anywhere.

00:25:06.540 Nothing's happened, you know?

00:25:07.820 But on a walk, you're making progress no matter what, even by just staying in motion.

00:25:13.840 Same as a road trip.

00:25:15.180 But they've now got this physiological element to it, too, which is that just how you're

00:25:19.460 relating to each other physically, especially for men, it's just very important that we

00:25:23.500 are.

00:25:23.740 I'm going to try that next time I'm with my therapist in a room.

00:25:25.780 It's like, yeah, why do we get, yeah, like, maybe it's easier if I'm just able to share

00:25:29.760 and have somebody there, right?

00:25:31.520 I remember one time I was talking to my brother, and I didn't know that this had been important

00:25:36.920 in my life, but he said, hey, man, I can just, I was having a tough day, man.

00:25:42.540 I pulled over.

00:25:43.260 I was like, just, I was kind of like falling apart a little bit.

00:25:47.060 And he's like, hey, man, I can just sit here on the phone with you.

00:25:52.980 We don't have to say anything, right?

00:25:54.980 And I'd never, he's like, I have some time, right?

00:26:00.700 I have an extra 10 minutes.

00:26:02.100 I can just sit here with you.

00:26:03.680 We don't have to say anything.

00:26:04.700 We don't have to say anything.

00:26:06.000 And I can just be here with you, you know?

00:26:07.880 And man, I just, I mean, it was like a dam inside of me broke, you know?

00:26:12.120 It was like, literally, there was tears coming out of my toenails, you know?

00:26:16.380 Like, it was just like, you didn't realize all the time you needed someone just to be

00:26:21.220 there.

00:26:21.600 I didn't need to hear them say anything.

00:26:23.540 I didn't need to hear how they thought I felt.

00:26:27.360 I didn't need to hear a response to anything, no judgment, nothing.

00:26:32.260 I just needed somebody there, you know?

00:26:34.260 And it was like, I mean, it's, I mean, it like, I remember my hands vibrating.

00:26:38.680 It shook me so much, you know?

00:26:40.540 You're very lucky.

00:26:41.180 That idea of being, like, with somebody, not necessarily for them.

00:26:46.100 I think sometimes we think, like, we've got to be for them.

00:26:48.240 We've got to be telling them what to do.

00:26:49.340 We've got to be advising them.

00:26:50.540 We've got to be advocating.

00:26:51.580 Like, somehow, we've got to be doing something.

00:26:53.720 And sometimes it's just being with.

00:26:57.240 And for them to know that you're with, I'm with you, right?

00:27:02.060 That's an incredibly powerful statement.

00:27:04.140 And one of the things that has really motivated my work around boys and men, which I didn't

00:27:11.020 ever expect really to be doing, was just this sense that I had that so many boys and men

00:27:17.420 now don't have that feeling that we are with you, that we have your back.

00:27:23.560 We've noticed that you're struggling, and we are, we're with you.

00:27:28.100 And instead, there's sometimes been a sense a lot of men have felt, which is being neglected

00:27:33.040 or sometimes even blamed for their own problems.

00:27:37.500 Is pornography causing a problem in your life?

00:27:39.900 Do you find yourself watching porno for longer periods of time and having trouble stopping?

00:27:47.020 Is porn affecting your relationship or dating life?

00:27:51.660 Well, you're certainly not alone.

00:27:54.280 Watching pornography has become so commonplace today, and oftentimes men use porn to numb the

00:28:00.700 pain of loneliness, boredom, anxiety, and depression.

00:28:04.420 Shame and stigma prevent men from talking about these issues and getting help for them.

00:28:10.640 I want to introduce you to my friend, Steve.

00:28:13.240 Steve is the founder of Valor Recovery, a program to help men overcome porn abuse and sexual compulsivity.

00:28:21.060 Steve is a long-term sexual recovery member and has personally overcame the emotional and

00:28:25.960 spiritual despair of abusing pornography and has dedicated his life to empowering men to

00:28:31.660 do the same.

00:28:33.080 Steve is an amazing person, and he is a close friend of mine.

00:28:37.920 I mean that.

00:28:39.520 Valor Recovery helps men to develop the tools necessary to have a healthier sex life.

00:28:44.120 Their coaches are in long-term recovery and will be your partner, mentor, and spiritual guide

00:28:50.140 to transcend these problematic behaviors.

00:28:53.260 To learn more about Valor Recovery, please visit them at www.valorrecoverycoaching.com or

00:29:03.520 email them at admin at valorrecoverycoaching.com.

00:29:10.500 Thank you.

00:29:11.040 You all know I like to keep things cool, even in the winter, and nothing is cooler than a

00:29:17.360 Blue Cube cold plunge.

00:29:20.080 I'm fortunate enough to have one at home, and let me tell you, it's like baptizing your

00:29:25.060 soul, baby, getting that little crispy bucket, baby.

00:29:28.900 It gets rid of them demons we all have and makes you feel great for seven or eight hours

00:29:33.300 afterwards.

00:29:33.960 It's good.

00:29:35.320 My buddy Thomas Schiffer, the genius behind Blue Cube, and I go way back, and he just launched

00:29:41.480 a pre-sale for their new stand-up cold plunges.

00:29:44.400 Wow.

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00:29:49.280 American-made, full immersion, weatherproof frames, and built like a Sherman tank.

00:29:54.160 I'll say this.

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00:29:56.240 And because you're listening to me, you can get a sweet discount when you mention my name.

00:30:02.100 That's right.

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00:30:07.840 So if you're ready to boost your metabolism, eliminate inflation, and blast away your anxiety,

00:30:13.260 give them a call.

00:30:14.580 Head over to their website, bluecubebaths.com, and dive into the details.

00:30:21.200 Opt in on their website or give them a call.

00:30:26.020 I am grateful for the one that I have, and I feel honestly thankful to be able to have one.

00:30:30.760 I know they're not in everybody's price range, and that's understandable.

00:30:34.720 But at the same time, I want to support my friend and his amazing company.

00:30:39.480 So I think there are these real problems.

00:30:41.580 So I know you talked to Scott Galloway about some of these issues.

00:30:45.480 Scott's been amazing on this.

00:30:46.960 But the suicide rate among men under the age of 30 has risen by 40% since 2010.

00:30:54.700 Just since 2010, by 40%.

00:30:56.680 Is that true?

00:30:57.200 Bring that up.

00:30:58.240 Yeah.

00:30:58.580 Look, the American Institute for Boys and Men did a suicide trends analysis.

00:31:05.800 And if you go down, you can then see the shift in—so up until 2010, it was much more older men who were—

00:31:15.320 There you go.

00:31:15.840 You got it.

00:31:16.220 So if you go down, like, there's a—

00:31:20.220 Let me see.

00:31:21.140 If male suicide rates had been the same as women's from 1999 to 2023, we would have lost 546,000 fewer men.

00:31:28.720 Yeah.

00:31:29.160 So men are—since 2010, suicide rates have risen by 30%.

00:31:33.800 For 25 to 34. 0.65

00:31:35.520 But we've updated that since.

00:31:36.900 And for under 20, it's 40%.

00:31:38.620 Wow.

00:31:38.960 So it was really interesting about the suicide—

00:31:41.200 And where do you get this information from?

00:31:42.960 From CDC, from the Centers of Disease Control.

00:31:45.300 This is official.

00:31:45.920 So we lose 40,000 men a year to suicide.

00:31:51.540 And since 2010, it's all shifted to being younger men, right?

00:31:55.100 So the rise—up until 2010, the rise was middle-aged men, really.

00:32:01.380 And that was about deaths of despair.

00:32:03.620 You can see it was partly about the economy.

00:32:05.700 But since 2010, the rise has been among younger men.

00:32:09.860 And so that's a very different thing.

00:32:11.280 That's not about the recession.

00:32:13.020 That's something different going on.

00:32:14.540 I think that's more cultural.

00:32:15.580 I think it's more just a lot of these young men feeling lost, feeling unseen.

00:32:21.120 Yeah, what am I a part of?

00:32:22.460 Yeah, because you have to have purpose, right?

00:32:24.300 And I think you have to have purpose.

00:32:27.300 We've talked a lot about that on this podcast.

00:32:29.260 I learned a lot about it.

00:32:30.480 But, yeah, we have to have something to feel a part of.

00:32:32.480 Man, I remember there was a guy I went skydiving with,

00:32:35.260 and he'd listen to this podcast when it first started out.

00:32:38.700 And he and I kind of connected,

00:32:40.480 and we connected on some emotional levels talking about life and stuff.

00:32:46.120 And then there were a couple times he'd messaged me,

00:32:48.440 and I didn't get back to him over like six months or something.

00:32:54.560 I mean, life, you know.

00:32:56.480 You were busy.

00:32:56.960 Life, yeah.

00:32:57.840 And then he took his own life.

00:32:59.580 Not that I had, you know, nothing I probably could have done.

00:33:03.520 But just like, man, it's just like, oh, I just like sometimes that's –

00:33:09.340 does all that stuff kind of haunt you?

00:33:10.680 It's like –

00:33:11.300 But you don't know it's coming.

00:33:13.760 And one of the things that stopped me in my tracks,

00:33:16.840 you know how sometimes –

00:33:17.840 so I, for a living, like I'm reading research reports

00:33:20.940 and looking at data and stuff.

00:33:22.600 But I've also been racing, you know, three boys.

00:33:25.400 But even in the research,

00:33:26.320 sometimes you get a finding that just stops you

00:33:29.900 and affects you emotionally.

00:33:32.240 And there's one study that looked at men who'd taken their own lives

00:33:36.020 and then looked at the words they'd used to describe themselves

00:33:39.620 before they'd taken their lives.

00:33:41.180 And the two most commonly used words that men were using about themselves

00:33:45.940 before they took their own lives was, 0.98

00:33:48.900 I'm useless and I'm worthless. 0.92

00:33:53.180 And I think that sense of worthlessness, 0.91

00:33:55.960 of genuinely feeling like maybe my family, my community

00:33:59.200 will be better off without me than with me

00:34:03.840 is what leads to that tragic outcome.

00:34:06.780 And, of course, that's just the tip of the –

00:34:08.800 I think that's the tip of the iceberg.

00:34:10.480 If you then look at drugs, you look at substance abuse,

00:34:13.320 you look at what's happening in the employment market,

00:34:15.200 I think that sense that a lot of men have

00:34:18.260 is that there isn't really a script anymore

00:34:20.980 to follow to manhood, right?

00:34:24.100 To mature masculinity.

00:34:25.120 And I think that that's –

00:34:27.280 in one way, that's for a good reason.

00:34:28.460 But the way I think about this is

00:34:29.440 if you think about, like, the script that my dad had, right,

00:34:32.800 about being a breadwinner and a provider.

00:34:33.780 Yeah, so I was going to say,

00:34:34.280 let's look at some previous scripts so we can examine those, right?

00:34:36.640 So, like, my parents are a good example.

00:34:39.600 Born in the 40s, had the kids in the 1960s.

00:34:44.400 And then it was like my mom knew

00:34:46.820 that she was mostly going to be the homemaker and the mom. 0.54

00:34:50.020 She worked as well. 0.67

00:34:50.780 She was a nurse. 1.00

00:34:51.760 But my dad knew that he was going to be the breadwinner, right,

00:34:54.080 the provider.

00:34:55.120 There was not a discussion about that.

00:34:56.960 There was no question about that.

00:34:59.040 So they had pretty clear roles.

00:35:01.120 Now, the problem with that, of course,

00:35:02.280 was that the roles depended on the woman,

00:35:05.060 in this case my mom,

00:35:06.160 being economically dependent on my dad.

00:35:08.560 Right, right.

00:35:09.220 That's the problem.

00:35:10.260 And that's the problem that the women's movement 1.00

00:35:12.200 successfully, to a large extent, set out to solve, right?

00:35:16.260 But my dad was also quite emotionally dependent on my mom, right?

00:35:21.700 And vice versa.

00:35:22.740 But I do think it was like it's a two-way street.

00:35:24.880 That was missing from the analysis.

00:35:26.480 Anyway, we tore up these old scripts, right?

00:35:28.260 And we said to women,

00:35:29.060 you don't have to be a housewife and mother anymore, 1.00

00:35:31.940 or at least that's not your only option.

00:35:34.480 You can be whatever you want to be.

00:35:35.760 You go, girl.

00:35:37.060 Right?

00:35:37.600 Be president.

00:35:38.440 Be an astronaut.

00:35:39.160 Be whatever.

00:35:39.320 Which is amazing.

00:35:41.640 Totally amazing.

00:35:42.560 That message of empowerment we sent to women.

00:35:44.980 So we tore up the old female script, 1.00

00:35:47.260 provided a new one about empowerment and independence and you, go, girl. 0.99

00:35:50.920 We tore up the old male script, 1.00

00:35:53.120 which is you're going to be the provider and the protector.

00:35:55.920 We don't really have a new one.

00:35:57.060 We didn't replace it.

00:35:58.040 And so we're all improvising now.

00:35:59.980 So basically, we've gone from having some kind of script to improvisation.

00:36:04.800 And that's incredibly difficult to do.

00:36:08.120 And so it's hard because the good news here is what's happened to women, right? 1.00

00:36:11.320 Like nobody wants to roll back the economic gains of women. 0.99

00:36:14.980 But I think it's incredibly irresponsible and naive of us

00:36:19.220 to think that that doesn't have consequences for how we think about the role of men.

00:36:23.080 We've got to be able to think both of those thoughts at once.

00:36:25.740 It's good that women are gaining ground. 1.00

00:36:28.460 It is bad that men feel lost and purposeless.

00:36:30.840 And we have got to solve that problem as well.

00:36:34.060 Yeah.

00:36:34.740 No, I think that's really cool information.

00:36:37.960 It's good to look at.

00:36:38.720 It's good to like, and it's really, it makes perfect sense, right?

00:36:41.880 And it's like, you want to have a reason, right?

00:36:45.460 And sometimes I think women, yes, they didn't have the access to money. 1.00

00:36:51.520 And in a capitalistic society, money is power, right?

00:36:54.000 But also, I think there was a missing respect there, right?

00:36:57.080 There wasn't all, I think if women had been, if it had been totally respected,

00:37:01.780 the sacrifices that they made and the just intrinsic value of who they are

00:37:08.480 as mothers and as caretakers and as bridges of empathy and affection

00:37:14.760 and as homemakers, no matter where they are, whether they're in a home

00:37:18.780 or whether they're in a conversation, just being able to have that ability to create peace,

00:37:23.560 I think if women had, if that had been more respected, 0.99

00:37:26.680 then maybe they never would have felt as much of a movement

00:37:30.480 or as much of a desire to have so much of a movement.

00:37:34.580 Because they had the power.

00:37:35.240 Right, and the power, and the money is the power.

00:37:37.280 Yeah, so that's what that, the women's movement had a huge fight about that 1.00

00:37:41.360 because there were some people in the women's movement saying,

00:37:43.460 no, no, no, it's called the wages for housework movement,

00:37:46.700 which was basically what we need to do is pay women to do the traditional women's role. 1.00

00:37:51.240 Oh, that's a cool idea.

00:37:52.660 And that lost out.

00:37:53.500 That was a real idea?

00:37:54.420 Yeah.

00:37:55.040 Bring that up, the wages for housework movement?

00:37:57.080 Yeah, there's a big split in the women's movement 1.00

00:37:59.420 between the ones who are saying we need to value care and value care work,

00:38:02.600 like wages for housework. 0.97

00:38:04.360 And then there's another movement, which is like,

00:38:06.160 actually you've got to be, yeah, in the 1970s.

00:38:08.780 I never knew about this.

00:38:09.620 The wages for housework campaign was a 1970s international movement

00:38:13.480 that demanded governments recognize the value of unpaid domestic labor

00:38:17.200 primarily performed by women.

00:38:19.060 Wow.

00:38:19.820 The founders were Silvia Federici, Selma James, 0.96

00:38:24.620 Mariosa Diacosta, and Bridget Galtier.

00:38:29.400 Their goals were to change the dependency of domestic workers,

00:38:32.680 reverse power relations, and redistribute wealth.

00:38:35.900 Dude, that's fascinating.

00:38:37.540 That's another way we could have gone, in theory at least, right?

00:38:40.420 Right, right.

00:38:40.720 And I'm not saying that women didn't deserve to have all the jobs 1.00

00:38:43.400 and whatever they wanted to do.

00:38:44.320 I'm just saying if there had been a different level of respect,

00:38:48.180 and this makes perfect sense, and some financial equality,

00:38:52.300 maybe they wouldn't have wanted that.

00:38:55.620 I have no idea.

00:38:56.660 I'm just thinking.

00:38:57.360 No, well, this is a really interesting question

00:39:00.080 because I now think we're at a point where a lot of men and women

00:39:03.660 are feeling like this isn't quite working.

00:39:07.440 We're trying to raise kids.

00:39:08.880 We're trying to form families.

00:39:10.620 We want to raise our own kids.

00:39:12.420 Right.

00:39:12.580 Both parents are so stressed out that they can't even have a relationship anymore.

00:39:15.900 Right.

00:39:16.280 We want to stay together and be married.

00:39:18.040 We want to raise our own kids, by and large, right?

00:39:20.100 And we don't want to die of stress, right?

00:39:22.600 So one of the ways I think about this is like you had this old family system,

00:39:25.300 which was breadwinner father, homemaker mother,

00:39:29.560 and it was unfair in many ways,

00:39:32.880 but it was also pretty stable and very clear what everyone's role is,

00:39:36.600 and it was pretty good for kids, right?

00:39:38.940 Because of that stability, when it worked.

00:39:41.020 Right.

00:39:41.100 So we've replaced that with a different model now

00:39:43.340 where we don't want that economic inequality.

00:39:45.420 So we're going to – both men and women are going to work.

00:39:49.240 That can create all kinds of stress,

00:39:51.180 and maybe that relationship is hard to sustain,

00:39:53.840 which means it might end up separating, which is not good for kids.

00:39:56.580 Right, and the rules aren't super clear.

00:39:57.820 You don't know who's going to be doing what.

00:39:59.560 You don't know who's getting certain things done.

00:40:01.560 You don't know –

00:40:02.320 The division of labor is not clear anyway.

00:40:04.460 And a division of labor, in other words,

00:40:06.400 like being clear, like you do this, I do this.

00:40:08.740 It's like an organized business, really.

00:40:09.980 Yeah.

00:40:10.300 I mean, it's like everybody knows that it makes more sense.

00:40:12.480 Like you're in charge of X, I'm in charge of Y.

00:40:14.420 So you get really good at X, and I get really good at Y.

00:40:16.880 And the interesting path we took instead was like,

00:40:22.660 okay, women need to get into the labor market 1.00

00:40:24.240 and have labor market power.

00:40:25.520 I think that was almost certainly –

00:40:27.480 I mean, that's the right –

00:40:28.380 I don't imagine a world where the Wages for Housework movement,

00:40:31.700 like huge government subsidies to people who are staying at home,

00:40:35.140 was ever likely.

00:40:36.280 And there's all kinds of problems with that idea.

00:40:38.820 But it's an interesting idea but thought behind it,

00:40:41.780 which is are we doing enough to support the people

00:40:44.080 who want to raise their own kids? 1.00

00:40:45.640 The whole point of the women's movement 0.98

00:40:46.600 wasn't to turn women into their fathers.

00:40:49.300 It was to give everybody more choice.

00:40:51.620 And we haven't achieved that yet

00:40:52.760 because we haven't done the rest of it,

00:40:54.820 which is to change the way the workplace works,

00:40:56.740 to give more support to families.

00:40:58.620 I know you had J.D. Vance on, right?

00:40:59.980 And J.D. Vance has supported like a child tax credit,

00:41:03.420 which is seen as a left-wing idea,

00:41:05.420 to give more money to people who've got kids in the house.

00:41:08.940 And so that's not wages for housework,

00:41:11.560 but it's in the direction of actually valuing care

00:41:15.000 through government subsidy.

00:41:16.820 But that has not been an idea

00:41:17.960 that's been popular for a pretty long time.

00:41:19.960 Really?

00:41:20.440 Well, since the 70s, I would give you a point.

00:41:21.920 Yeah, you're saying that.

00:41:22.880 Yeah, that's interesting.

00:41:23.760 Right, so it's a similar idea.

00:41:25.220 It's not the same.

00:41:25.860 Yeah, and it wouldn't be framed as wages

00:41:27.260 for housework anymore.

00:41:28.160 And it certainly wouldn't be aimed just at women anymore.

00:41:30.240 Right.

00:41:30.460 It would be for families, et cetera.

00:41:31.940 But the idea that another way to go

00:41:34.560 is to actually provide financial support,

00:41:37.640 like most European countries do,

00:41:39.440 to parents who are at home

00:41:41.120 and not just to parents who are in the workplace.

00:41:43.340 That's an interesting discussion right now.

00:41:45.400 And I think as long as it doesn't become

00:41:47.020 a call to go back, right,

00:41:49.920 we're going to help women stay in the home. 1.00

00:41:52.500 Right.

00:41:52.580 Instead, it should be to help parents

00:41:54.280 figure out for themselves.

00:41:56.140 And I'm a huge believer that actually fathers,

00:41:58.920 fathers are doing so much more

00:42:00.660 than they were in the past.

00:42:01.780 Fathers are doing so much more in the home,

00:42:03.820 so much more childcare.

00:42:05.200 And dads are saying they want to do more.

00:42:07.220 Interestingly now, men are more likely to say

00:42:08.840 that having children is important to them

00:42:10.380 than women are. 1.00

00:42:11.480 Yeah.

00:42:11.780 Men are more likely to say that getting married

00:42:13.600 is important to them than women are. 1.00

00:42:15.500 Wow.

00:42:15.920 Right.

00:42:16.160 And so that's a really interesting moment in history

00:42:18.380 where if you've got this stereotype

00:42:19.700 that it's like women who are obsessed

00:42:21.360 with like getting married and having kids,

00:42:23.260 like not anymore.

00:42:24.460 It's now men who are saying

00:42:26.700 that's a higher priority for them.

00:42:28.160 It's almost like men are coming to the, 0.98

00:42:30.940 to bridge the gap there of like making,

00:42:34.300 because there always needs to be some,

00:42:36.400 one of the parties has to be,

00:42:38.500 until we can get both of the parties to be aligned,

00:42:40.880 has to be the one that wants to bring it back

00:42:44.380 to let's have a family and move.

00:42:46.220 Because I think you have to do it.

00:42:47.460 It's like, it's how we're built.

00:42:48.880 Yeah.

00:42:49.400 Right.

00:42:49.680 Exactly.

00:42:50.240 So I think,

00:42:50.820 how am I going to get that purpose

00:42:52.140 that you were talking about?

00:42:52.880 I think I've heard you say

00:42:53.820 that you want to have kids at some point.

00:42:55.200 Oh yeah.

00:42:55.460 I would like to have some kids, man.

00:42:56.740 I started this campaign.

00:42:58.440 It's called 2020 Wive.

00:43:00.500 That means like 2025,

00:43:02.020 but it's like the,

00:43:02.880 this is,

00:43:03.280 this is the year I get a wife.

00:43:04.300 Oh, I see.

00:43:05.560 So that is.

00:43:06.460 I thought you meant you were going to get 25 wives. 0.63

00:43:08.580 Oh no.

00:43:09.420 Now look,

00:43:10.680 I'd be willing to have more than one wife,

00:43:12.840 but.

00:43:13.180 We would need a change in the law for that, Theo.

00:43:15.120 Hey,

00:43:15.340 I could be a dual citizen.

00:43:17.580 You'd have to be a dual citizen with,

00:43:19.640 I think Afghanistan.

00:43:21.800 Okay.

00:43:22.260 Maybe Iran. 0.83

00:43:23.520 I'm willing.

00:43:24.340 I could do it, man.

00:43:25.420 You'd also have to convert to Islam.

00:43:26.960 Oh really?

00:43:27.740 Well,

00:43:28.060 how long does he.

00:43:28.700 Christianity doesn't, 1.00

00:43:29.760 doesn't look kindly on multiple wives.

00:43:33.080 Can you do,

00:43:33.840 can you convert to Islam online or not?

00:43:36.300 Bring that up.

00:43:36.920 I'm not the right person to ask that.

00:43:40.240 How to convert to Islam.

00:43:41.320 Oh, good.

00:43:42.140 And there's a one 800 number.

00:43:45.740 There is scroll up,

00:43:47.820 scroll down.

00:43:50.500 Hey,

00:43:50.640 Oh,

00:43:50.760 it's an eight six six number. 1.00

00:43:52.100 Damn. 1.00

00:43:52.440 That's great. 1.00

00:43:53.040 Does that mean you have to pay for it?

00:43:54.400 I'm sure they hit you with something,

00:43:56.220 man.

00:43:56.940 Converting to Islam is very easy to process and can be done online in privacy.

00:44:00.200 Okay.

00:44:01.260 If now that makes it sound very suspect.

00:44:04.000 The fact that it has to be just tell someone,

00:44:05.980 right?

00:44:06.540 Oh yeah.

00:44:06.800 No one can know.

00:44:07.640 Yeah.

00:44:08.120 Secret.

00:44:09.020 It sounds like somebody is recruiting.

00:44:11.820 I think a better route for you,

00:44:13.780 if I can offer some advice.

00:44:15.680 Yeah.

00:44:16.080 It is,

00:44:16.680 isn't,

00:44:17.420 is to just have one wife.

00:44:18.960 I think that there's,

00:44:20.020 that stood the test of time as a,

00:44:21.700 as a way of doing things.

00:44:22.620 Right.

00:44:22.900 Not actually.

00:44:23.420 I,

00:44:23.700 I,

00:44:23.740 I,

00:44:23.960 look,

00:44:24.280 I should be very recent time.

00:44:25.900 I think most human societies have been polygamous,

00:44:28.920 have actually had.

00:44:30.120 Really?

00:44:30.260 Yeah.

00:44:30.380 It's like 95% of known human societies have been polygamous and almost always. 0.58

00:44:36.440 I don't,

00:44:37.080 I'll get the word wrong.

00:44:37.800 It's polygamous, 1.00

00:44:39.160 I think,

00:44:39.640 which means men are allowed to have multiple wives,

00:44:43.060 but not the other way around.

00:44:44.180 Wow.

00:44:44.580 Right.

00:44:44.780 Very rare to find it the other way around.

00:44:46.840 Um,

00:44:47.240 which is one of the reasons why I don't,

00:44:50.040 this is a fact that like blew my mind.

00:44:52.220 I'm going to try on you.

00:44:53.040 Okay.

00:44:53.460 See what you think.

00:44:54.620 Um,

00:44:55.460 we have twice as many female ancestors as male ancestors. 0.98

00:45:03.080 Okay.

00:45:03.640 Twice as many.

00:45:04.480 Ancestors.

00:45:05.320 An ancestor means what?

00:45:06.760 Across human history.

00:45:08.040 An ancestor means somebody that existed.

00:45:09.900 Yeah.

00:45:10.040 So twice as many females existed as men. 0.99

00:45:11.920 There are twice as many women in human history as there are men. 0.98

00:45:16.400 Twice as many.

00:45:17.280 The modern,

00:45:18.140 yes,

00:45:18.540 modern humans have approximately twice as many female ancestors as male ancestors. 0.57

00:45:23.380 This is due to a number of factors.

00:45:24.260 I love the fact that you're checking everything I say.

00:45:26.120 This makes me feel much more confident about saying it because then you're going to check it.

00:45:29.800 Yeah,

00:45:30.060 good.

00:45:30.320 Because we,

00:45:30.860 yeah,

00:45:30.980 we're trying to do a little bit better job.

00:45:32.680 That's one of my goals this year is just to have a better,

00:45:34.780 um,

00:45:36.060 because sometimes I just assume everything is true.

00:45:38.040 Right.

00:45:38.380 And a lot of this stuff is just helpful information,

00:45:40.600 but I don't understand though.

00:45:42.300 Right.

00:45:42.640 So how can you have twice as many females? 0.95

00:45:45.380 You're just saying that two thirds of the people that have ever existed have been female.

00:45:49.280 Yeah.

00:45:49.760 Wow.

00:45:50.380 But that,

00:45:51.160 I guess it makes sense because,

00:45:52.280 you know,

00:45:53.440 there's mother earth,

00:45:54.640 right?

00:45:55.480 So obviously she's going to want more kind of babes around hanging out on her. 1.00

00:46:00.600 And then you're going to have like,

00:46:02.740 there's going to be,

00:46:04.080 um,

00:46:04.940 and females are the producers. 0.98

00:46:06.840 They have like a,

00:46:07.700 they have the womb and they're the makers. 0.99

00:46:11.040 They're like the recipe.

00:46:12.140 They're the chefs.

00:46:13.240 So you need a,

00:46:14.500 like more,

00:46:15.320 you know,

00:46:15.980 life is about creation.

00:46:17.820 So I think it makes sense that you're going to have more women around probably. 0.85

00:46:22.000 Right.

00:46:22.540 Does that make any sense?

00:46:23.320 You think?

00:46:24.340 No.

00:46:25.160 Okay.

00:46:25.760 Um,

00:46:26.440 I just,

00:46:27.680 I just think women are the ones who like keep things together. 1.00

00:46:31.880 Sure.

00:46:32.740 So I think you're going to need more of that probably to keep the world functioning.

00:46:37.500 Okay.

00:46:37.820 Oh,

00:46:38.140 I actually,

00:46:39.020 the idea,

00:46:39.540 do you know why they have more though?

00:46:40.820 Yeah.

00:46:41.160 Oh,

00:46:41.420 sorry,

00:46:41.820 Jesus.

00:46:42.240 No,

00:46:42.520 I like,

00:46:42.880 I don't,

00:46:43.880 I mean,

00:46:44.140 I don't hate your idea as a certain,

00:46:46.400 like the idea that mother earth,

00:46:48.080 like once more mothers around, 0.63

00:46:49.800 that's,

00:46:50.100 I think it's kind of beautiful idea.

00:46:51.580 Yeah.

00:46:51.720 I think it checks out to me.

00:46:54.220 Should we,

00:46:54.900 why aren't we Googling this?

00:46:57.200 That's a good question.

00:46:58.300 I mean,

00:46:58.520 who wants a bunch of dudes loitering around anyway? 0.88

00:47:00.760 Someone's going to call the police.

00:47:01.840 Every time I say something,

00:47:04.020 you have this guy Googling it,

00:47:05.900 right?

00:47:06.160 Whereas you say stuff,

00:47:07.880 Google his stuff.

00:47:10.160 there you go.

00:47:10.860 Right there.

00:47:11.380 Look at that lady right there. 1.00

00:47:13.000 Like,

00:47:13.440 are there more women because mother earth wants, 1.00

00:47:16.180 likes women better?

00:47:17.060 Oh,

00:47:17.300 for sure.

00:47:17.980 Well,

00:47:18.340 she's obviously going to have a probably like definitely,

00:47:21.260 I don't know.

00:47:21.840 Maybe mother earth is very jealous and she doesn't want women around. 1.00

00:47:24.300 Could be the other way around.

00:47:25.020 Yeah.

00:47:25.300 Could be like,

00:47:25.800 well,

00:47:25.900 wouldn't mother earth want lots of men? 1.00

00:47:27.640 That's what I would think too.

00:47:28.580 If she was straight.

00:47:29.140 But men are just, 0.74

00:47:30.200 men are just,

00:47:31.020 they're just loitering her around. 0.99

00:47:32.480 They're jerking off in the parking lot or whatever. 0.99

00:47:34.420 You don't want that. 0.97

00:47:35.220 I don't think that's a,

00:47:36.100 that's not what you want.

00:47:37.100 You want some babes around, 1.00

00:47:38.500 I think.

00:47:38.920 Can I give you an alternative theory?

00:47:41.120 Yeah.

00:47:41.260 That's why,

00:47:41.760 which is that you,

00:47:44.480 because you,

00:47:45.040 societies are being polygamous, 0.81

00:47:47.380 right?

00:47:47.480 You don't need that many men.

00:47:50.480 Oh,

00:47:51.000 yeah.

00:47:51.960 In order to have a lot of children.

00:47:53.540 It's like the NBA.

00:47:54.300 It's like NBA players kind of thing.

00:47:57.080 What do you mean?

00:47:57.540 Like a lot of those guys have,

00:47:59.140 who has the most kids in the NBA?

00:48:01.820 Bring that up.

00:48:03.940 I think it's some,

00:48:04.600 are they NBA players well known for having lots of children?

00:48:08.060 I think they're promiscuous type of, 0.98

00:48:09.540 you know,

00:48:09.780 so it's like Calvin Murphy.

00:48:11.340 There we go.

00:48:11.840 14 children.

00:48:12.940 So I'm just saying,

00:48:13.800 yeah,

00:48:13.920 these guys can definitely.

00:48:15.640 Well,

00:48:15.760 you see it on Tinder as well.

00:48:16.980 You see on these apps,

00:48:18.100 this,

00:48:18.340 it's got like a winner takes all type thing.

00:48:20.760 And it works like the guys at the top.

00:48:22.560 That's what Scott Galloway was saying that like the top 1% of men.

00:48:25.460 Right.

00:48:25.900 Whatever the numbers.

00:48:26.760 But what's interesting about that is like,

00:48:27.900 that's human.

00:48:28.460 That's basically human history.

00:48:29.860 I actually showed that Tinder data to an evolutionary psychologist.

00:48:33.480 I only studies that whole history of humanity.

00:48:36.140 And he's like,

00:48:36.760 yeah,

00:48:36.880 that just looks like human history to me,

00:48:38.500 which is high status men mating with multiple,

00:48:41.260 multiple women. 1.00

00:48:42.560 And therefore we are kind of reproduced.

00:48:44.420 But 50% of men across human history didn't have kids at all.

00:48:49.220 They didn't reproduce.

00:48:50.120 Now,

00:48:50.260 what that meant was,

00:48:51.660 there's all kinds of implications for that.

00:48:53.080 Like one is,

00:48:53.660 first of all,

00:48:54.220 I'm reading this book by Neil Stevenson now.

00:48:58.260 It's called Seven Eves.

00:48:59.960 And that we basically have to kind of send out a few people to survive.

00:49:03.980 And there's this passing comment because the earth's going to be destroyed.

00:49:07.160 The Seven Eves?

00:49:08.100 Seven Eves.

00:49:08.740 Yeah.

00:49:08.880 Okay.

00:49:09.920 There's this passing comment there,

00:49:11.160 which is like most of the colonists will have to be female. 1.00

00:49:14.260 Right.

00:49:14.620 And the reason for that is the ones we're talking about,

00:49:17.800 which is you need a lot of wombs to keep the human race going, 1.00

00:49:20.920 but you don't need as many men.

00:49:22.480 Right.

00:49:22.660 Right.

00:49:22.840 There's this guy,

00:49:23.500 actually,

00:49:23.860 I can quote him directly.

00:49:25.320 There's a guy,

00:49:25.900 Roy Baumeister, 0.97

00:49:26.720 who says we have a penile surplus, 0.97

00:49:29.560 which is a kind of brutal way of putting it. 0.81

00:49:31.120 But it's like,

00:49:31.560 we just don't need that many men.

00:49:32.780 Right.

00:49:33.300 Now,

00:49:33.600 one consequence of that is,

00:49:35.320 and this is going to get me back to your skydiving.

00:49:37.560 I'm going to loop this.

00:49:38.580 If I'm successful here,

00:49:39.660 if I'm successful,

00:49:41.200 I'm going to loop this back to skydiving.

00:49:42.620 I have 0% chance of looping things.

00:49:44.420 Okay.

00:49:44.600 Let me try.

00:49:45.500 I believe in you.

00:49:46.660 So,

00:49:46.780 okay.

00:49:47.480 Yeah.

00:49:47.820 So,

00:49:48.600 50% of men have not reproduced in human history.

00:49:52.080 So,

00:49:52.340 half the men have kids,

00:49:53.360 half of them don't have kids.

00:49:54.900 And it's the lower status men who are not going to have kids, 1.00

00:49:58.040 right?

00:49:58.240 Because the higher status men have multiple wives.

00:50:01.460 They're actually,

00:50:02.200 if you like,

00:50:02.720 they're over-consuming.

00:50:04.220 And they can afford to do it.

00:50:05.380 Correct.

00:50:05.980 And so,

00:50:06.440 if you're a low status man,

00:50:08.880 there's a good chance that you're just not going to reproduce at all,

00:50:11.520 right?

00:50:11.720 You're going to be an evolutionary dead end.

00:50:13.540 Your DNA is not going to go anywhere.

00:50:15.920 And under those circumstances,

00:50:17.540 you will risk almost anything to raise your status.

00:50:21.420 Go to war. 0.80

00:50:22.540 Go exploring.

00:50:23.800 Turn to crime.

00:50:25.080 Do anything to try and get yourself up that hierarchy

00:50:28.020 so you have a chance of reproducing.

00:50:29.640 If you stay down there,

00:50:30.840 you ain't going to have kids.

00:50:31.940 You're cooked.

00:50:32.340 Right?

00:50:32.720 And so,

00:50:33.000 you've got to get up there.

00:50:33.700 So,

00:50:33.920 you take risks.

00:50:34.920 Oh,

00:50:35.160 yeah.

00:50:35.380 You risk your life.

00:50:36.360 Because actually,

00:50:37.420 if you die,

00:50:38.520 who cares?

00:50:39.020 Who cares?

00:50:39.500 You only got a 50-50 chance of having a kid anyway,

00:50:41.960 right?

00:50:42.160 You don't have any kids already.

00:50:43.320 And if you're down there,

00:50:44.240 it's not 50-50.

00:50:45.160 It's maybe like,

00:50:46.100 you're almost certainly not going to have a kid.

00:50:47.740 So,

00:50:48.180 so you take crazy risks to raise up the hierarchy.

00:50:51.760 And one consequence of that is men,

00:50:54.700 on average,

00:50:55.980 are more risk-taking than women, 1.00

00:50:58.300 even today,

00:50:59.700 which is why they go skydiving.

00:51:02.100 Like,

00:51:02.260 what do you,

00:51:02.940 what do you,

00:51:03.900 think about skydiving?

00:51:05.180 Like,

00:51:05.280 men are also twice as likely to drown.

00:51:07.680 Men are twice as likely to drown.

00:51:08.800 Drown, 0.83

00:51:09.180 yeah.

00:51:09.420 There's all kinds of ways.

00:51:10.560 Like,

00:51:10.720 risky behavior,

00:51:12.100 both good and bad,

00:51:13.460 is higher among men,

00:51:14.400 right?

00:51:14.620 Good could be like being entrepreneurial,

00:51:16.660 whatever.

00:51:17.200 I don't know any women that have drowned,

00:51:18.440 and I know some men that have drowned.

00:51:19.620 Right.

00:51:20.080 And so,

00:51:21.400 skydiving,

00:51:22.980 you know what?

00:51:23.680 I'm going to say something,

00:51:24.480 and I don't know if this is true,

00:51:25.480 so you're going to have to get your fact checker in the sky to check,

00:51:27.820 but I bet you more men skydive.

00:51:29.980 But I know for sure that smoke jumpers are almost entirely men.

00:51:34.860 Do you know what a smoke jumper is?

00:51:36.460 I don't think so.

00:51:37.260 It's not a Native American thing, 1.00

00:51:38.520 is it?

00:51:38.740 No,

00:51:38.880 you're from the South,

00:51:39.600 right?

00:51:40.140 Where are you from?

00:51:41.260 Yeah,

00:51:41.420 I'm from Louisiana.

00:51:42.200 Yeah,

00:51:42.240 yeah,

00:51:42.460 okay,

00:51:42.740 so you'd know if you were from out kind of West,

00:51:44.680 right?

00:51:45.660 What does it say about men and women?

00:51:47.140 Well,

00:51:47.280 the number of men and women who try tandem skydiving is roughly equal to the sport of skydiving

00:51:50.900 is predominantly male.

00:51:52.440 Professional skydivers,

00:51:53.320 only about 14% of professional skydivers in the United States are women.

00:51:57.960 Some reasons for the disparity,

00:51:59.240 women may be more risk averse than men,

00:52:01.380 just like you're saying.

00:52:02.220 Yeah,

00:52:02.840 that's number one.

00:52:04.440 And women may be perceived as less interested in taking risks.

00:52:07.140 I just think,

00:52:07.720 if you're,

00:52:08.320 so just from an evolutionary perspective,

00:52:11.140 or if you're a woman, 0.98

00:52:12.400 you are highly incentivized to protect your own body,

00:52:15.700 right?

00:52:15.920 Because you're probably,

00:52:17.540 this is just an evolutionary term.

00:52:19.160 Yeah,

00:52:19.320 you're the one who's got the future in you.

00:52:20.620 Yes,

00:52:20.640 and you're going to have a kid,

00:52:21.940 probably.

00:52:22.440 Most women have reproduced, 1.00

00:52:23.880 right?

00:52:24.120 You'll quite like to have a kid.

00:52:25.700 Whereas if you're a guy,

00:52:27.360 actually,

00:52:28.040 if you've only historically had like a 50-50 chance,

00:52:30.800 right?

00:52:31.060 And you've got to get more status,

00:52:32.900 and your body is kind of less,

00:52:34.380 quotes,

00:52:34.980 valuable.

00:52:35.680 Right,

00:52:35.820 who cares if you're nuts land out in the desert or whatever,

00:52:38.080 because your shoe didn't know. 0.75

00:52:39.080 Or you throw yourself out of a plane.

00:52:40.980 So these,

00:52:41.880 these smoke jumpers.

00:52:44.040 Smoke jumpers are highly trained firefighters who parachute from airplanes in a remote areas to fight wildfires.

00:52:49.600 Wow.

00:52:50.000 It's almost like a severe barbecue,

00:52:53.300 like one of those TV shows or whatever.

00:52:55.000 Smoke jumpers are really interesting,

00:52:56.640 because these are people who have chosen for a job.

00:53:00.320 Okay.

00:53:01.000 That they will go up in an airplane,

00:53:03.840 jump out of the airplane,

00:53:05.220 even when there's nothing wrong with the airplane,

00:53:07.040 which is what you do,

00:53:08.080 apparently,

00:53:08.760 jump out of the airplane.

00:53:09.940 But the difference is,

00:53:10.760 they jump out of the airplane into a blazing inferno in the middle of nowhere,

00:53:15.980 and stay there for days on end fighting that fire.

00:53:20.000 That's an interesting job choice.

00:53:22.860 And it's almost all men.

00:53:24.760 Now,

00:53:25.180 there are some women, 1.00

00:53:26.260 and of course,

00:53:26.840 women should be encouraged to do that job, 1.00

00:53:28.960 and that's great if they want to do that job.

00:53:30.980 Yeah.

00:53:31.220 But I'm just going to go out,

00:53:32.260 I said this to a female friend of mine.

00:53:33.820 I said,

00:53:34.120 you know,

00:53:34.300 this profession,

00:53:35.480 I explained to her what it was,

00:53:36.760 and she said,

00:53:37.480 you can keep that one.

00:53:39.100 Yeah.

00:53:39.380 There is no big feminist movement to get more women into smoke jumping. 1.00

00:53:42.780 Smoke is so bad for you anyway.

00:53:44.820 I guess the point here is,

00:53:45.800 there are ways in which,

00:53:47.320 on average,

00:53:47.740 men and women are different.

00:53:49.100 And one of them is that,

00:53:49.880 men have this different appetite for risk.

00:53:53.160 And if that,

00:53:55.780 do we think that that's good or bad?

00:53:57.740 It's the wrong question.

00:53:58.640 It's both good and bad.

00:53:59.720 It depends how it's expressed,

00:54:01.120 right?

00:54:01.640 Because there are times when you want people to be willing to take risks,

00:54:04.440 to put themselves on the line,

00:54:05.800 or to kind of try a new venture or something like that.

00:54:09.220 And there are times when it's a really bad idea,

00:54:10.900 right?

00:54:11.700 To try a new drug when it's not a good idea,

00:54:13.920 or to jump too high off a bridge or whatever it is.

00:54:17.180 And so there's ways in which those differences between men and women can either become good or bad.

00:54:22.200 But we don't get anywhere by denying that they exist.

00:54:25.800 What we do is we say,

00:54:27.340 there are these differences.

00:54:28.200 How do we channel them in productive ways?

00:54:29.980 And so if young men,

00:54:31.620 for example,

00:54:32.040 are a bit more risk-taking,

00:54:33.800 and they're a lot more risk-taking when they're young,

00:54:35.620 if they're a bit more potential for physical aggression,

00:54:38.840 which is absolutely clear,

00:54:40.300 et cetera,

00:54:40.740 if they're a bit more driven by sex,

00:54:43.560 for example,

00:54:44.020 which is also absolutely true,

00:54:45.660 and we see that playing out in all kinds of ways,

00:54:47.260 around kind of pornography,

00:54:48.520 et cetera,

00:54:48.840 it doesn't do any good to just say that's not true,

00:54:51.660 right?

00:54:51.880 That those things aren't,

00:54:52.720 they're all socialized.

00:54:54.040 Actually,

00:54:54.380 instead,

00:54:54.700 what we're going to say is they are true.

00:54:56.160 So what do we do about that as a culture and as a society?

00:54:58.700 How do we kind of take those differences responsibly and not fall into the trap of saying one is good or one is bad?

00:55:04.700 We used to think that somehow the male attributes,

00:55:07.400 to call them that,

00:55:08.200 were better,

00:55:09.060 right?

00:55:09.320 That's a patriarchy.

00:55:10.440 And the female ones, 1.00

00:55:11.680 maybe more caring,

00:55:12.740 more nurturing,

00:55:13.460 et cetera.

00:55:14.360 As you said a minute ago,

00:55:15.260 right?

00:55:15.440 We just,

00:55:15.900 we value them less,

00:55:17.740 right?

00:55:17.880 We don't want a society like that,

00:55:19.280 but we also don't want a society where the male, 0.99

00:55:22.140 the more male leaning attributes are seen as intrinsically bad.

00:55:24.900 It's one of the reasons why I hate the term toxic masculinity,

00:55:27.000 by the way.

00:55:27.820 Well,

00:55:28.020 also,

00:55:28.280 there's no toxic femininity either,

00:55:30.020 which is interesting,

00:55:30.920 you know,

00:55:31.140 it's like,

00:55:31.720 because you,

00:55:32.500 you got to have one and the other,

00:55:34.040 no matter what.

00:55:34.700 I feel like,

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00:55:58.580 fill my own,

00:55:59.380 um,

00:56:00.780 chip tooth in.

00:56:02.540 Why sauna?

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00:56:52.520 Just to kind of circle back to where we were.

00:56:54.740 Um,

00:56:55.140 so there's a lot of men that are suffering,

00:56:56.840 right?

00:56:57.100 There's like,

00:56:57.880 that's kind of improved.

00:56:58.740 There's a lot more of suicide.

00:57:00.260 Um,

00:57:00.760 there's uncertainty is what it means to be a man.

00:57:03.500 Masculinity, 0.86

00:57:04.020 this kind of,

00:57:04.800 uh,

00:57:05.300 masculinity with this new femininity kind of being defined.

00:57:09.040 Now the new masculinity is kind of undefined.

00:57:12.580 Um,

00:57:13.180 yeah,

00:57:13.460 that's a good way to put it.

00:57:14.580 And a lot of men are looking for their place.

00:57:16.580 What do you feel like is causing that these days?

00:57:19.020 Um,

00:57:19.420 because it's not women causing it. 1.00

00:57:20.860 It's not this,

00:57:22.060 this equality of women.

00:57:23.960 No,

00:57:24.440 no,

00:57:24.680 it's not.

00:57:25.060 And I think that's really important thing to say,

00:57:26.920 because that sometimes is what feels like might be the case.

00:57:30.940 And what some people are saying,

00:57:32.260 including kind of online,

00:57:33.360 which is what they do is they take two facts,

00:57:35.340 which is women have risen significantly economically in terms of education. 0.98

00:57:39.240 Now,

00:57:39.600 massively overtaken men,

00:57:40.920 et cetera,

00:57:41.620 men are struggling and suffering.

00:57:43.820 And there's a cul-de-sac of sorts.

00:57:45.340 Yeah.

00:57:45.620 And like,

00:57:45.960 so maybe that's because of that,

00:57:48.860 right?

00:57:49.140 Maybe the,

00:57:49.740 maybe the struggles of men are the result of the rise of women. 1.00

00:57:52.840 That's completely untrue.

00:57:54.480 They're for different reasons.

00:57:55.800 So the economy has changed,

00:57:57.380 right?

00:57:57.520 So a lot of the jobs that men used to be able to do, 0.89

00:57:59.840 especially without maybe that much education in manufacturing and steelworks and mining and

00:58:04.840 stuff,

00:58:05.560 they've largely gone,

00:58:06.880 right?

00:58:07.260 Now,

00:58:07.620 are they gone for good or they've just gone away from America?

00:58:12.300 They've gone away from America. 0.92

00:58:13.360 They've gone away from America. 0.92

00:58:14.360 Okay.

00:58:14.660 And there's no serious prospect of those male jobs that required like strong physical labor.

00:58:21.360 Like Bruce Springsteen type stuff.

00:58:22.960 It's not coming back.

00:58:24.360 I mean,

00:58:24.540 we can be nostalgic for them by and large.

00:58:27.120 I mean,

00:58:27.260 I'm not saying there's none,

00:58:28.040 no,

00:58:28.580 none of that.

00:58:29.320 Right.

00:58:30.180 But that's a huge shock,

00:58:31.560 right?

00:58:31.680 It's a massive change in,

00:58:33.000 in the workplace.

00:58:33.840 It's just those jobs that men used to be able to do that their dad maybe did just,

00:58:38.100 they're just not there.

00:58:39.160 Yeah.

00:58:39.280 I mean,

00:58:39.460 that was a lot of the commercials when I was a kid.

00:58:41.200 It was like,

00:58:41.580 I was born in a small town.

00:58:43.500 You know what I'm saying?

00:58:44.000 There was that commercial of like somebody made something.

00:58:46.620 And I remember my grandfather worked at the plant in his town and they made elevators

00:58:51.280 and stuff.

00:58:51.620 They made parts for elevators and it was a small town,

00:58:53.680 but he worked there and my grandma would take him lunch over there at the weekend during lunchtime.

00:58:58.560 And they had a lunch whistle in town and there was just these little things,

00:59:01.780 you know,

00:59:02.020 and,

00:59:02.340 and,

00:59:02.480 and you,

00:59:02.960 whenever we drove past there,

00:59:04.160 you know,

00:59:04.380 like grandpa works there,

00:59:05.680 you know,

00:59:05.900 it was like,

00:59:06.640 so there was,

00:59:07.240 um,

00:59:07.760 it added purpose to everybody's existence.

00:59:09.700 Yeah.

00:59:10.160 And there was a real structure to it.

00:59:11.760 I mean,

00:59:11.880 just think about my own family.

00:59:13.040 I took my three sons to North Wales,

00:59:15.660 to a town called Bliner Fustinjog in North Wales.

00:59:18.640 That all,

00:59:18.920 that all.

00:59:19.560 Bliner Fustinjog is a disease as well,

00:59:21.620 I think.

00:59:22.060 Oh,

00:59:22.220 in a few minutes,

00:59:23.100 it'll be a new,

00:59:23.740 uh,

00:59:24.020 drug available in America.

00:59:26.380 That's,

00:59:27.000 this will fool your fact checker.

00:59:28.620 They will not be able to even spell Bliner Fustinjog.

00:59:31.440 Uh,

00:59:31.720 but it's a,

00:59:32.340 you was the biggest producer of slate for a long time.

00:59:34.920 And generations of my family have worked in that slate mine.

00:59:38.540 Oh,

00:59:38.920 really?

00:59:39.320 Went there and we found their great,

00:59:40.780 great,

00:59:41.140 great,

00:59:41.500 great,

00:59:41.820 great grandfather's grave.

00:59:43.580 No way.

00:59:44.200 And went down into the mine and spent some time that had a big effect on them.

00:59:47.520 And it's like,

00:59:48.160 what did you do?

00:59:48.960 You did what your dad did.

00:59:50.040 Go down the mine.

00:59:51.100 What your granddad did.

00:59:52.040 Go down the mine,

00:59:52.720 right?

00:59:52.980 Go down the mine,

00:59:53.760 go down the mine.

00:59:54.720 And,

00:59:55.160 and even when I was growing up in a,

00:59:57.180 I grew up in Peterborough,

00:59:58.000 an industrial town.

00:59:58.680 My mom was a part-time industrial nurse for a while. 0.90

01:00:01.800 And the hooter for the ends of the shifts,

01:00:03.760 we could hear it across the town.

01:00:05.100 And so we knew when she was coming home,

01:00:06.760 because we would hear the factory hooter horn horn.

01:00:10.280 Yeah.

01:00:10.640 Sounder sound alarm.

01:00:12.060 Thank you.

01:00:12.820 Wow.

01:00:13.320 Yeah.

01:00:13.620 So it's almost like as men were out of the minds now,

01:00:16.380 a little bit.

01:00:17.220 Like we had that,

01:00:18.200 not everybody.

01:00:18.800 Some people are still in there.

01:00:19.700 It was such a weird,

01:00:21.100 it was such a weird experience.

01:00:22.340 So we went down to the bottom of the slate mine and there are these little huts in the

01:00:26.800 bottom of the mine.

01:00:27.560 And they would go in there for like 30 minutes at lunchtime and they would sing.

01:00:31.480 This is in Welsh,

01:00:32.480 right?

01:00:32.720 So they'd sing,

01:00:33.700 they'd sing and they'd eat and they'd talk,

01:00:36.260 maybe do a bit of politics,

01:00:37.240 right?

01:00:37.540 And then they'd go back up and start coming out of the mine.

01:00:40.640 Very dangerous,

01:00:41.540 incredibly well paid for the time,

01:00:43.100 but very dangerous work.

01:00:44.680 And there was something about,

01:00:46.020 I went to those huts and I sat in there like with my boys and we're kind of sitting there and

01:00:50.120 thinking about like seven generations of our family being down there.

01:00:53.560 And actually this is going to sound a bit weird,

01:00:57.880 but almost being a little bit envious of what it was like for those men to go down there and

01:01:03.360 be in that little hut. 1.00

01:01:05.400 And then of course you catch yourself and you think you're an idiot, 1.00

01:01:08.360 right? 1.00

01:01:08.520 It was dangerous work.

01:01:09.800 It was hard.

01:01:10.600 What are you talking about?

01:01:11.680 Right.

01:01:11.820 And if you put me in there now,

01:01:13.140 right,

01:01:13.620 I probably wouldn't do great.

01:01:15.420 Right.

01:01:15.900 But I think what,

01:01:16.760 what it was catching for me and with my boys,

01:01:19.200 especially was the sense of like male solidarity,

01:01:21.400 right?

01:01:22.200 Just a sense,

01:01:22.940 that visceral sense of like it did structure life,

01:01:26.020 male lives in particular.

01:01:27.740 And in that,

01:01:28.580 in that town,

01:01:29.720 when the men went down into the mines,

01:01:32.080 all the,

01:01:32.760 all the wives would come out and the kind of children and stand silently. 0.99

01:01:36.780 It was bad luck for there to be any noise.

01:01:38.400 So they stood silently while the men went down into the mine.

01:01:40.780 Wow.

01:01:41.700 And hoped that they would come back.

01:01:43.980 And so there's something very beautiful and nostalgic about that.

01:01:47.820 And I get that nostalgia.

01:01:49.140 Yeah.

01:01:49.260 It was a tradition,

01:01:49.920 right?

01:01:50.200 But it was a ritual,

01:01:51.700 ritual,

01:01:52.500 tradition,

01:01:53.300 purpose,

01:01:53.920 space,

01:01:54.760 clear script,

01:01:56.080 right?

01:01:56.480 What are you going to do?

01:01:57.580 How about you do what your great,

01:01:59.280 great,

01:01:59.500 great,

01:01:59.700 great grandfather did and your great grandfather and your grandfather.

01:02:01.900 How about just doing that?

01:02:03.060 Right.

01:02:03.440 And I don't think we,

01:02:05.720 we couldn't,

01:02:06.960 even if we wanted to reconstruct that kind of world,

01:02:09.540 but I do think we should be honest about the fact that the collapse of that structure and

01:02:14.440 those scripts has really left a lot of men incredibly uncertain about,

01:02:20.340 am I going to be needed by my family?

01:02:21.960 What am I going to do?

01:02:22.980 What's my job going to be?

01:02:24.360 So we've had this massive economic change.

01:02:26.940 And then along it,

01:02:28.140 alongside it,

01:02:29.420 we've had this huge social change,

01:02:30.740 which has been the economic rise of women, 1.00

01:02:32.720 right?

01:02:33.020 And so it's no longer the case that women are now like looking for a man.

01:02:37.700 Gloria Steinem is a very famous feminist, 0.98

01:02:40.380 still alive from the 1970s.

01:02:42.580 I actually had a really cool meeting with her.

01:02:44.720 Really cool lady or not? 0.98

01:02:46.020 Yes.

01:02:46.480 Totally cool.

01:02:47.540 I got to meet that lady. 1.00

01:02:48.320 She's amazing.

01:02:49.060 And she said famously,

01:02:51.100 she said the point of the women's movement is to make marriage a choice for women, 0.98

01:02:56.500 not a necessity.

01:02:59.120 Right?

01:02:59.840 Because women needed to get married before to, 1.00

01:03:03.440 you know,

01:03:03.920 Right.

01:03:04.060 It was the only way who's going to pay for dinner.

01:03:05.520 Right.

01:03:05.940 And not enough.

01:03:06.920 Yeah.

01:03:07.220 Right.

01:03:07.360 Not at a fancy restaurant.

01:03:08.640 Right.

01:03:09.400 Right.

01:03:09.920 And so the whole point is to make it a choice so that women have enough economic power to 1.00

01:03:14.180 choose marriage rather than being forced into it.

01:03:16.280 This is a weird coda,

01:03:18.100 but she actually just got married herself.

01:03:19.640 I think she's in her 90s now.

01:03:21.440 She's so cool.

01:03:22.580 But she got married partly because same-sex marriage is legal now. 0.93

01:03:26.580 And because she said we've made enough progress that marriage,

01:03:28.880 she used to describe marriage as this patriarchal citadel,

01:03:32.240 et cetera.

01:03:32.760 Here's the weird thing.

01:03:34.220 She got married to Christian Bale's father.

01:03:37.140 Wow.

01:03:38.080 Which I just find a bit random.

01:03:40.720 And he's British,

01:03:41.460 isn't he?

01:03:42.360 No.

01:03:42.760 Is he?

01:03:43.540 I don't know.

01:03:44.060 I don't know either.

01:03:44.920 David Bale right there in 2066,

01:03:48.480 the long single Steinem married for the first time in a Cherokee ceremony in Oklahoma.

01:03:53.160 So that was a while ago.

01:03:53.760 It was in 2000,

01:03:54.600 right?

01:03:54.720 Her husband,

01:03:55.180 entrepreneur and activist David Bale sadly died of lymphoma four years later.

01:03:59.000 That's right.

01:03:59.280 Wow.

01:04:00.080 Yeah.

01:04:00.500 So even in the end,

01:04:01.860 even Gloria Steinem felt like it was okay to get married, 1.00

01:04:05.100 right?

01:04:05.220 We'd made enough progress.

01:04:06.200 Right.

01:04:06.580 So that actually the women, 1.00

01:04:08.100 marriage was no longer this kind of trap for women economically. 1.00

01:04:12.080 But it was a choice.

01:04:12.900 It was a choice.

01:04:14.380 And so,

01:04:15.100 but of course,

01:04:15.480 what that means is when it's a choice,

01:04:17.640 there's a lot of women that might be like, 1.00

01:04:19.140 I choose not to marry you.

01:04:21.000 I might or might not have your kids,

01:04:22.660 your kids,

01:04:23.380 but we're now in this world where there's a lot more freedom of choice.

01:04:27.080 And of course,

01:04:27.520 that is a great and wonderful thing.

01:04:29.940 Right.

01:04:30.100 But it's also created a huge amount of uncertainty,

01:04:32.320 especially among men.

01:04:34.000 Like they just,

01:04:34.620 I think a lot of men feel now that they've been told a bunch of things that they know they shouldn't be.

01:04:40.960 Shouldn't be predator.

01:04:42.160 Shouldn't,

01:04:42.480 you know,

01:04:42.720 there's a lot,

01:04:43.160 don't do this.

01:04:44.020 Don't do this.

01:04:44.380 You can't peep in time.

01:04:45.740 You can't.

01:04:46.260 And quite right too.

01:04:47.340 Right.

01:04:47.540 But there's no like,

01:04:48.920 I sometimes think that we had a long list of don'ts for men.

01:04:51.880 Right.

01:04:52.280 Right.

01:04:52.720 But not very many do's.

01:04:54.640 Yeah.

01:04:54.900 Where's the list of to do's for men now?

01:04:56.920 For sure.

01:04:57.360 And it used to be that,

01:04:58.300 yeah,

01:04:58.500 almost every man was,

01:04:59.680 you weren't guaranteed a wife,

01:05:00.980 but everybody's going to need to pair up because the way that the,

01:05:04.780 the,

01:05:05.120 the script was put together,

01:05:06.680 you needed each other because you needed someone to be in the home.

01:05:10.940 You need someone to be the breadwinner.

01:05:12.360 The script was there.

01:05:13.620 You had to partner up.

01:05:14.800 So figure it out and let's move on.

01:05:16.640 Let's move forward in the world.

01:05:17.820 Exactly.

01:05:18.440 And what I fear now is that there are some more reactionary forces,

01:05:24.600 voices saying the way to,

01:05:27.660 to actually for men to find purpose is to go back because it's very recently

01:05:31.920 that there was a world where men felt purpose,

01:05:33.840 which was the world we just escaped from where women were economically 1.00

01:05:36.620 dependent on men.

01:05:37.640 And so I could totally understand why this is happening,

01:05:40.140 where people are saying,

01:05:41.300 well,

01:05:41.500 we used to know what our role was when women were economically reliant on us. 1.00

01:05:45.620 Well,

01:05:45.840 first of all,

01:05:46.540 we ain't going back.

01:05:47.880 There's no switch.

01:05:49.640 You could turn that even if you wanted to.

01:05:51.920 Yeah.

01:05:52.080 And we don't want to,

01:05:53.100 but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing more to help men move forward

01:05:56.920 and actually having a bit of empathy for the fact that this is a difficult

01:06:01.260 moment,

01:06:01.860 a difficult transition for men.

01:06:03.220 And so rather than kind of pointing fingers at them,

01:06:05.860 we should maybe offering them the occasional helping hand.

01:06:08.220 And I think that lack of empathy and understanding and awareness of the

01:06:12.540 genuine suffering of many of our men has created a huge vacuum in our

01:06:17.820 culture and in our society.

01:06:19.160 And we need to fill it fast.

01:06:20.900 Otherwise we're going to lose more and more of our men.

01:06:22.480 And we'll be right back.

01:06:24.460 Wow.

01:06:25.200 Very true.

01:06:26.240 So one thing you have to start to look at is then where do men start to,

01:06:30.740 you know,

01:06:31.760 or where do men continue to find these building blocks,

01:06:35.780 right?

01:06:36.240 To,

01:06:36.780 to create the worth inside of themselves.

01:06:39.780 Um,

01:06:40.420 for me,

01:06:41.100 one thing has been through other men,

01:06:42.900 right?

01:06:43.220 And,

01:06:43.660 and,

01:06:44.040 um,

01:06:44.440 and even like you're saying shoulder to shoulder,

01:06:46.200 like things that experiences that I've had that have been the best.

01:06:50.180 Um,

01:06:50.940 like even when I used to go to a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and take classes there,

01:06:54.580 it was really amazing.

01:06:56.140 Cause you're in this physical space,

01:06:57.620 but also there's the,

01:06:58.840 also there's so much mutual respect in there.

01:07:01.160 It's not people trying to beat each other up.

01:07:02.660 It's trying to help people trying to help each other,

01:07:04.660 um,

01:07:05.840 physically,

01:07:06.900 uh,

01:07:07.420 learn how to take care of themselves.

01:07:09.260 Right.

01:07:09.640 Yeah.

01:07:10.140 And,

01:07:10.680 but with the,

01:07:11.240 with that,

01:07:11.580 there's so much camaraderie and,

01:07:13.200 um,

01:07:14.020 and,

01:07:14.540 um,

01:07:15.280 love and compassion that comes along with having great instructors.

01:07:18.740 And a lot of times it's just the guy next to you who's your best

01:07:21.180 instructor for the next moment.

01:07:23.160 Um,

01:07:24.060 recovery meetings,

01:07:24.980 you know,

01:07:25.140 I go to recovery meetings for,

01:07:26.380 um,

01:07:27.260 intimacy and,

01:07:28.860 um,

01:07:30.300 AA.

01:07:30.600 And those meetings for me are really great.

01:07:33.640 Um,

01:07:34.380 especially the intimacy ones like where,

01:07:36.320 you know,

01:07:36.620 they call it like sex and love addiction and stuff,

01:07:38.280 but it's really just like intimacy disorders or connection disorders or

01:07:41.740 just,

01:07:42.260 it's almost just low self worth.

01:07:44.700 It's all,

01:07:45.200 it's all of that.

01:07:46.100 And sometimes you base it off of your relationship with women or you

01:07:48.860 can look at your relationship with women to see how you're doing on

01:07:52.560 your own.

01:07:53.280 Are there men and women in those groups or is it just me?

01:07:56.540 A lot of the ones I go to are just men.

01:07:58.560 And it's not that I don't want women in them. 0.54

01:08:00.180 It's just like,

01:08:00.620 I want a space where it's just men. 0.99

01:08:01.780 I can be able to share openly if I'm struggling with a certain thing or how

01:08:05.120 I'm feeling or,

01:08:06.500 um,

01:08:07.200 and it just be other men,

01:08:08.360 you know,

01:08:08.580 it just feels,

01:08:09.200 and it,

01:08:09.540 and then you're not trying to like,

01:08:10.940 uh,

01:08:11.680 slurp on any of the chicks that are in there either.

01:08:13.500 You're not trying to flirt or anything,

01:08:14.640 you know,

01:08:14.820 you're just,

01:08:15.080 which would seem bad given the nature of the problems that many of the

01:08:17.660 men have.

01:08:18.540 Oh,

01:08:18.940 and you'll be shocked.

01:08:19.700 It'd be like holding an AA meeting in a bar or something.

01:08:22.020 Yeah.

01:08:22.520 I understand that.

01:08:23.300 Yeah.

01:08:23.540 So it's,

01:08:24.020 yeah.

01:08:24.520 So,

01:08:24.980 but you're getting male solidarity from both.

01:08:26.940 That's what you're getting.

01:08:27.620 And that's one of the reasons I go,

01:08:28.960 I go out of here,

01:08:29.440 other men share.

01:08:30.500 I go to share.

01:08:31.440 And sometimes they'll say something in like my body will just go like

01:08:36.280 that.

01:08:36.580 Right.

01:08:36.900 It's like your shoulders drop.

01:08:39.120 You breathe.

01:08:39.820 It's an exhale that I didn't even know I needed to take.

01:08:42.520 Yeah.

01:08:42.640 It's an exhale that has just been running in the back of my subconscious

01:08:46.100 for sometimes decades,

01:08:48.340 sometimes hours,

01:08:49.480 sometimes years,

01:08:50.100 minutes,

01:08:50.360 but it's something that I needed to hear.

01:08:53.220 I needed to hear where everything was okay.

01:08:55.260 Yeah.

01:08:55.760 And I needed to hear another man's voice say it.

01:08:58.320 Yeah.

01:08:58.920 And,

01:08:59.400 and it helps,

01:09:01.680 it helps,

01:09:02.340 it helps.

01:09:03.420 Yeah.

01:09:03.720 It's interesting.

01:09:04.380 I,

01:09:05.020 well,

01:09:05.140 thank you for sharing that.

01:09:06.200 Yeah,

01:09:06.400 you're welcome.

01:09:06.920 But yeah,

01:09:07.480 what spaces are there for men? 0.93

01:09:08.940 Like what?

01:09:09.340 It's something beautiful about that.

01:09:10.620 I think I go back to my story about the heart,

01:09:12.660 like in the bottom of the slate mine,

01:09:13.940 it's like there's something.

01:09:15.900 Oh yeah.

01:09:16.560 There's something nice about it.

01:09:17.840 Beautiful.

01:09:18.080 It's quite fragile.

01:09:18.860 I think that male friendships take work.

01:09:21.460 I think we sometimes don't pay enough attention to them.

01:09:24.500 It's actually something like I go on road trips with more,

01:09:27.300 my best friend or every year I get together with my male buddies and we go hiking so that

01:09:32.740 we're shoulder to shoulder and just talk and catch up.

01:09:36.340 And that's,

01:09:37.560 I think one of the,

01:09:38.860 one of the damaging trends in recent years has been a suspicion of male spaces,

01:09:44.020 right?

01:09:44.900 Of like the boys weekend or even some of the institutions.

01:09:47.720 So if you actually go through the institutions now,

01:09:49.520 like the Boy Scouts is not the Boy Scouts anymore.

01:09:52.220 I'm actually a scout leader.

01:09:53.660 I'm not doing as much now,

01:09:55.100 but I used to run a scout group over in the UK and I was a scout,

01:09:57.740 but it's co-ed now.

01:09:59.420 Boy Scouts is co-ed?

01:10:00.400 It's scouting for America now.

01:10:01.880 And what is Girl Scouts?

01:10:02.840 Are they just joined forces?

01:10:04.000 No.

01:10:04.440 Girl Scouts are still Girl Scouts.

01:10:05.700 No.

01:10:06.920 Yeah.

01:10:07.440 And we can't go over there?

01:10:09.360 The Girl Scouts does not allow boys in.

01:10:12.120 Wow.

01:10:12.440 But Boy Scouts has become scouting for America.

01:10:14.440 Ladies, 1.00

01:10:14.980 that's,

01:10:15.380 that's not even cool.

01:10:16.280 But there's a pattern here.

01:10:18.260 You've got the YMCA is now co-ed,

01:10:21.440 right?

01:10:22.120 Well,

01:10:22.320 no one thinks,

01:10:22.960 no one really thinks about the M in YMCA anymore.

01:10:25.440 That's your point.

01:10:26.140 Right?

01:10:26.760 Whereas the YWCA,

01:10:28.120 still very kind of focused on women.

01:10:30.180 Boys and girls clubs used to be boys clubs.

01:10:33.100 And I think there's one other one I'm thinking of.

01:10:35.060 And it's not that,

01:10:35.940 it's not that there's always bad for things to be co-ed.

01:10:38.580 It's not that you also don't want institutions for girls and women.

01:10:41.840 But what we've got now is a situation where we're actually really very often

01:10:45.700 applauding having these spaces for girls and kind of women to have female solidarity,

01:10:50.820 work together,

01:10:51.920 grow together.

01:10:52.820 But we're really suspicious if it's,

01:10:54.660 if it's men doing it.

01:10:55.600 And I get why,

01:10:56.620 right?

01:10:56.840 Because of our history.

01:10:58.120 But I think that as a result,

01:10:59.760 we've actually deconstructed a lot of these institutions where actually boys could learn

01:11:04.860 from other boys and from men and so on too.

01:11:06.840 And so I think that turning the Boy Scouts into Scouting for America and taking,

01:11:12.060 not for it being,

01:11:13.000 I think we'll,

01:11:13.860 I think we'll look back on that and just say,

01:11:16.520 that was a bad decision.

01:11:18.140 It's kind of emasculating as a,

01:11:19.400 in a way.

01:11:19.960 It's just like,

01:11:20.520 why can't,

01:11:21.280 I mean,

01:11:21.480 I just think about my own experience.

01:11:22.600 Why can't we meet?

01:11:23.440 And it's not like,

01:11:24.100 I went to a co-ed high school,

01:11:25.680 but actually the fact that I was able to go to Scouts and it would be guys there

01:11:28.480 and we could learn from each other.

01:11:30.160 And I,

01:11:30.740 weirdly,

01:11:32.180 I actually think that male spaces are where you can help men to learn some of the not

01:11:37.180 traditionally male attributes like caring and nurturing and love and expressing that

01:11:41.520 stuff.

01:11:41.840 It's just easier,

01:11:43.040 right?

01:11:43.480 Or a male sports team,

01:11:44.860 right?

01:11:45.360 Like you're learning love,

01:11:46.560 you're learning comradeship,

01:11:47.820 you're learning solidarity,

01:11:49.060 you're learning.

01:11:49.740 Exactly.

01:11:50.620 And I just think that's a bit,

01:11:51.720 and it probably is true for girls too,

01:11:54.060 but kind of learning some of those skills that maybe go against the stereotype about girls,

01:11:58.260 like learning to be more assertive maybe,

01:11:59.900 or competitive,

01:12:00.840 et cetera.

01:12:01.240 Like you,

01:12:01.620 you generally don't have to encourage a bunch of boys to compete with each other.

01:12:05.700 Right.

01:12:06.140 That just tends to be a bit more baked in.

01:12:08.780 It's in the nature.

01:12:09.660 Yeah.

01:12:09.900 Yeah.

01:12:10.040 And there should be spaces where it's like,

01:12:11.340 Hey,

01:12:11.500 men can meet up here tonight.

01:12:12.520 And they used to have more of them.

01:12:13.540 There was like more American legions.

01:12:15.040 There was more like VFWs, 0.94

01:12:16.580 but a lot of that was military based type stuff.

01:12:18.900 It was.

01:12:19.160 And since we haven't had that large of a war,

01:12:23.720 you know,

01:12:24.200 I know we have conflicts and we've had some smaller wars,

01:12:27.340 but I know we have it since we haven't had such a huge conflict.

01:12:29.940 There hasn't been that big band of brothers type of vibe.

01:12:32.540 That's that's brought men together so much.

01:12:34.780 And then also even if,

01:12:36.240 and I'll go even as far to say,

01:12:37.880 if you're a white male,

01:12:39.160 right?

01:12:39.520 Like there's,

01:12:40.020 there's spaces for black males, 0.94

01:12:41.640 Latinos,

01:12:42.780 Middle Eastern clubs,

01:12:44.020 there can be all types,

01:12:45.020 but if you're a white guy, 1.00

01:12:46.840 you just are fucking a loo. 1.00

01:12:48.780 You're looked at as you're pointed at. 1.00

01:12:50.480 A lot of times it feels like by the media is like a loser as part of the problem,

01:12:53.680 as a creator of the problem.

01:12:56.060 I don't think a lot of that energy is also good in our country.

01:12:59.980 When we do,

01:13:00.540 we have white males in our country,

01:13:02.100 you know,

01:13:02.920 and it's,

01:13:03.360 you can't like,

01:13:04.640 you can't make also white males feel like they don't exist,

01:13:07.940 you know?

01:13:09.080 Because also a lot of white people didn't have a lot of like,

01:13:12.360 yes,

01:13:12.580 I know there's privilege,

01:13:13.480 but if you grew up with nothing, 0.96

01:13:15.000 you didn't fucking feel any privilege sometimes. 0.97

01:13:17.240 In fact, 0.99

01:13:17.620 being white and having nothing, 0.99

01:13:19.080 I would get looked at personally as why the fuck don't you have anything? 1.00

01:13:23.200 How did you fuck this up so bad? 0.99

01:13:25.720 You know, 0.99

01:13:25.940 like you must,

01:13:26.480 something really must be wrong with you.

01:13:28.460 If you're not,

01:13:29.260 you have the right color, 1.00

01:13:30.640 but you fuck your family can't even get shit together enough. 1.00

01:13:33.520 Wow. 1.00

01:13:34.000 What a loser. 1.00

01:13:34.920 And I'm not, 0.99

01:13:35.700 I'm not speaking against any other group,

01:13:37.940 but I'm just saying sometimes,

01:13:39.720 you know,

01:13:40.280 like,

01:13:40.780 uh,

01:13:41.960 there's not a rep.

01:13:42.820 There's no one.

01:13:43.420 You're not allowed to speak up for your own group just because of,

01:13:46.640 um,

01:13:46.860 history.

01:13:47.380 And that doesn't feel super fair sometimes,

01:13:49.600 you know,

01:13:50.380 does that seem crazy or not?

01:13:52.140 It feels so.

01:13:52.960 I'm as a new American,

01:13:54.520 I've learned a lot about the history of racism in this country and particularly for black Americans.

01:13:59.100 I feel very strongly about that. 1.00

01:13:59.980 If I start starting slavery as shit, 0.99

01:14:01.540 yeah, 1.00

01:14:01.940 gun me down. 0.56

01:14:02.520 But it's like civil rights.

01:14:03.980 But if I'm just playing fantasy football and trying to take care of a family, 0.99

01:14:07.140 fucking let me be somebody. 0.99

01:14:08.880 Again, 0.99

01:14:09.280 I think the way I see this is that it's part of a more general problem,

01:14:13.620 which is to be able to hold two thoughts in your head at the same time,

01:14:17.220 which is,

01:14:18.020 it is true that America has this history of racism and that there are still some racial issues that we need to deal with.

01:14:23.500 And Britain started it. 0.84

01:14:24.060 Yeah,

01:14:24.200 we polished it up a little.

01:14:25.320 I'll agree.

01:14:26.200 But other people started it too,

01:14:28.400 you know?

01:14:28.840 Yeah.

01:14:29.300 And the first slave,

01:14:30.640 I think,

01:14:31.020 was,

01:14:31.320 who was it?

01:14:31.860 Who was the first slave ever in the history of time?

01:14:35.200 It was in the Bible,

01:14:35.840 wasn't it?

01:14:36.620 Well,

01:14:36.820 there's lots of slaves in the Bible.

01:14:38.100 There you go.

01:14:38.720 The U.S. has a uniquely terrible history when it comes to slavery.

01:14:46.820 Yeah.

01:14:47.500 In modern history,

01:14:49.280 right?

01:14:49.940 That is true.

01:14:51.780 Yeah.

01:14:52.440 That is absolutely true.

01:14:53.660 And has an issue around race.

01:14:56.840 Absolutely true.

01:14:58.200 Still issues around race.

01:14:59.840 Yes.

01:15:00.140 Still issues around gender equality.

01:15:01.880 Yes.

01:15:03.160 And if you're a white guy,

01:15:05.820 particularly from a low-income background right now, 0.95

01:15:07.800 you're actually at the highest risk of suicide.

01:15:10.920 And your economic prospects compared to your father

01:15:13.340 have seen the biggest drop.

01:15:15.620 So two things can be true at once.

01:15:17.980 It can be simultaneously true

01:15:19.100 that we've still got to deal with these issues

01:15:20.500 and that we have this history

01:15:21.440 and not throw anybody under the bus.

01:15:25.520 Oh, yeah.

01:15:25.820 Right?

01:15:25.980 No one has to be left behind.

01:15:27.380 We have to rise together.

01:15:28.620 We have to think about a way in which,

01:15:30.060 like,

01:15:30.580 and class is a big part of this,

01:15:32.140 I think.

01:15:32.500 Like,

01:15:32.620 what's very often missing,

01:15:33.500 it's weird for me as a Brit

01:15:35.220 coming to the U.S.,

01:15:36.780 one of the things I've really noticed

01:15:38.940 is that the U.S. has a class system

01:15:41.360 which I think is every bit as brutal

01:15:45.480 as the British one.

01:15:47.460 The difference is,

01:15:48.340 Americans,

01:15:49.340 we pretend that we don't have a class system.

01:15:51.900 The Brits don't hide it.

01:15:53.080 We have a king now.

01:15:54.640 Always forget.

01:15:55.200 King.

01:15:55.680 We have an aristocracy.

01:15:57.480 We have knights.

01:15:58.560 We have all kinds of,

01:16:00.960 like,

01:16:01.100 we're obsessed with class in the U.K.,

01:16:03.940 where I come from, right?

01:16:04.680 It's one of the reasons I ran here, right?

01:16:06.120 One of the reasons I loved America

01:16:07.180 was there was less of it.

01:16:08.180 But,

01:16:08.800 like,

01:16:09.140 the U.S. has a class system too

01:16:10.340 and if you look at,

01:16:10.960 like,

01:16:11.100 trends for men,

01:16:11.740 it's really working class men,

01:16:13.040 right?

01:16:13.220 It's men, 0.70

01:16:14.140 like,

01:16:14.340 who maybe didn't do so well in school,

01:16:16.100 maybe haven't had a college degree

01:16:17.560 from poorer parts of the country,

01:16:19.020 et cetera.

01:16:19.500 Those men are the ones

01:16:20.400 who are suffering the most,

01:16:21.520 right?

01:16:21.780 From suicide,

01:16:22.780 from substance problems,

01:16:24.640 mental health problems,

01:16:25.440 family problems,

01:16:26.620 employment problems,

01:16:27.580 right?

01:16:27.760 Those men,

01:16:28.960 like,

01:16:29.620 they're really struggling

01:16:30.620 and that includes white men

01:16:32.400 as well as black and Hispanic men.

01:16:34.140 That's a class issue,

01:16:35.540 not a race issue.

01:16:36.620 Yeah.

01:16:36.920 And I think that quite often

01:16:38.040 in the U.S.,

01:16:38.980 people are more comfortable

01:16:40.060 talking about racial inequalities

01:16:42.620 than they are about

01:16:44.280 the overlapping class inequalities

01:16:46.180 because most of the people

01:16:47.220 talking about this

01:16:48.140 are at the top of the class hierarchy.

01:16:49.700 Oh, yeah.

01:16:50.140 Well,

01:16:50.320 and a lot of it's to our media.

01:16:51.640 Our media is usually

01:16:52.480 very well-off people

01:16:53.660 and they're like,

01:16:54.440 let me break out the racism drum

01:16:56.140 and beat that when it's on.

01:16:57.120 And, of course,

01:16:57.580 those things need to be addressed.

01:16:58.680 But if that stuff becomes

01:17:00.740 the only sound you hear,

01:17:02.260 then you guys are going to just,

01:17:03.280 then everyone is going to continue

01:17:04.860 to dance the same dance.

01:17:06.440 That's the point.

01:17:06.840 And so I think that that's

01:17:07.880 where we're missing

01:17:08.480 some of the evolution.

01:17:09.680 But I think that that's

01:17:10.420 starting to change.

01:17:11.180 It's why people are sick

01:17:13.020 of Hollywood

01:17:14.400 and everything that they've created

01:17:15.720 for a while.

01:17:16.660 Like that point you just made,

01:17:18.280 if that's the only sound you hear.

01:17:19.980 Right.

01:17:20.080 I think that's the point.

01:17:21.200 What I've discovered,

01:17:21.960 in my family,

01:17:22.880 in my extended family,

01:17:23.820 through my wife, etc.,

01:17:24.760 we have a lot of political diversity,

01:17:26.380 and a huge amount of class diversity.

01:17:28.820 My wife is from a much more

01:17:30.120 working class background

01:17:31.180 than I am,

01:17:32.440 even in the U.S.,

01:17:34.780 on the Maryland-Pennsylvania borders

01:17:36.780 where she grew up.

01:17:37.720 A lot of diversity.

01:17:38.680 And actually,

01:17:39.400 what I've kind of found

01:17:40.500 in talking to a lot of them

01:17:41.840 is that they actually

01:17:43.960 are significantly more tolerant

01:17:45.940 about a lot of these issues

01:17:47.000 than probably the mainstream media

01:17:49.720 would think.

01:17:51.220 But if that's all they hear,

01:17:52.840 they need to hear

01:17:53.480 the other bit as well.

01:17:54.820 And I think this is kind of,

01:17:55.840 if we can move from

01:17:56.860 or to and,

01:17:59.620 right?

01:17:59.940 So on gender,

01:18:01.080 like all this stuff we have to do

01:18:02.580 is still stuff to do for women. 1.00

01:18:03.500 I don't think there are enough

01:18:04.140 women in politics in the U.S. 1.00

01:18:05.540 I would love us to have

01:18:06.340 a female president. 1.00

01:18:07.520 I think we need to do more

01:18:08.600 around kind of women 0.99

01:18:09.380 in certain occupations.

01:18:10.400 Sure.

01:18:10.800 Yes.

01:18:12.500 And we've got to tackle

01:18:13.860 the male suicide crisis.

01:18:15.700 And we've got to figure out

01:18:16.800 why boys are doing so badly

01:18:17.880 in schools.

01:18:19.000 And we've got to figure out

01:18:20.000 why male wages 0.97

01:18:20.900 have been flatlining

01:18:22.080 for decades, right?

01:18:23.020 It's an and,

01:18:24.220 not an or.

01:18:25.000 Yeah.

01:18:25.540 But there are too many people

01:18:26.940 out there

01:18:27.500 who have a vested interest

01:18:28.980 in making an or.

01:18:30.200 So men are struggling.

01:18:31.520 Why?

01:18:31.860 Because of women. 1.00

01:18:33.000 We're going to blame women 1.00

01:18:33.740 and blame feminism, 1.00

01:18:34.600 blame the progress.

01:18:35.160 No, that's not it.

01:18:35.940 Or women are struggling.

01:18:38.080 You know why?

01:18:38.720 Because of the men.

01:18:39.560 Because of patriarchy

01:18:40.360 and toxic masculinity, 1.00

01:18:41.400 et cetera.

01:18:41.580 It has to be or.

01:18:42.620 And that's where the clicks are.

01:18:43.820 That's where the money is.

01:18:45.860 That's where the speaking gigs

01:18:46.880 come from.

01:18:47.680 That's where your ratings

01:18:48.580 come from.

01:18:49.280 is if you can position it.

01:18:50.560 Find a villain.

01:18:51.820 Find someone to blame.

01:18:53.640 That's where you get drawn.

01:18:55.480 But it's almost never true.

01:18:58.240 Well, a lot of times now,

01:18:59.000 the lens is the villain.

01:19:00.400 That's the thing

01:19:00.860 that I've started to realize.

01:19:01.600 Find the villain.

01:19:02.620 The lens is the villain.

01:19:03.940 And we didn't realize

01:19:04.820 that we were being forced

01:19:06.540 to look through this lens

01:19:07.800 for so long

01:19:08.500 because our media

01:19:09.860 has just been the same.

01:19:11.480 It's been so commandeered.

01:19:15.220 You know?

01:19:15.520 And so now it's becoming freer.

01:19:18.020 And I think that that's scaring

01:19:20.180 kind of like the powers that be.

01:19:21.680 You know?

01:19:21.820 I think it's one of the reasons

01:19:22.540 why they don't want TikTok

01:19:23.380 taken over.

01:19:24.500 You know?

01:19:24.800 They want to force 0.80

01:19:25.640 a sale of TikTok.

01:19:27.060 You know?

01:19:27.240 They're afraid

01:19:28.000 that it'll share truths

01:19:31.260 that they can't hold,

01:19:33.160 you know, anymore.

01:19:34.060 Right.

01:19:34.380 But I've been thinking a bit

01:19:35.980 about this,

01:19:36.980 the role of podcasts

01:19:38.440 like this one and others.

01:19:40.460 And I'd be interested

01:19:41.160 to actually just ask you about this

01:19:44.180 because one of the things

01:19:45.620 I've been thinking about

01:19:46.260 is the way in which

01:19:47.300 these are very freewheeling

01:19:48.740 conversations, right?

01:19:49.780 They're very,

01:19:50.660 like, we're talking.

01:19:52.080 So there's a thought.

01:19:53.000 We have a theme

01:19:54.120 we're going to talk about.

01:19:54.920 But what you've got

01:19:56.140 is usually two people

01:19:57.340 thinking out loud

01:19:58.600 and trying to learn

01:19:59.940 from each other

01:20:00.520 and trying to say stuff.

01:20:01.580 And sometimes you try

01:20:02.460 and fact check

01:20:02.960 what you're saying.

01:20:03.640 But, like,

01:20:04.140 this is a very different

01:20:05.280 kind of environment

01:20:06.460 to, like,

01:20:06.900 a classical media interview,

01:20:08.840 right?

01:20:09.020 Yeah.

01:20:09.280 Where you've got your points,

01:20:09.960 you've got your bullet points,

01:20:11.040 you've got...

01:20:11.660 It's much more...

01:20:12.760 And I think a lot of people

01:20:13.460 are really attracted to it,

01:20:14.580 maybe especially young men.

01:20:16.480 I think maybe they kind of like

01:20:17.820 that sense of, like,

01:20:19.300 we're just trying

01:20:20.060 to figure this out, right?

01:20:21.080 We're having a conversation.

01:20:22.940 Well, it feels that

01:20:23.680 shoulder-to-soulder vibe

01:20:24.520 in a way.

01:20:25.000 It does.

01:20:25.580 It does.

01:20:26.060 It feels more like his... 0.67

01:20:27.200 And almost like

01:20:27.800 they're overhearing.

01:20:28.560 Like, we're overhearing

01:20:30.420 a conversation, right?

01:20:31.620 So I know this is a little bit weird

01:20:32.740 to be talking about

01:20:33.360 our conversation.

01:20:34.600 But I don't know what you do.

01:20:36.580 It's not just, like,

01:20:37.600 a different media outlet.

01:20:40.020 It's, like,

01:20:40.520 a different way

01:20:42.180 of doing...

01:20:43.400 Well, because at a certain point,

01:20:44.400 you can't hide.

01:20:45.340 It's like,

01:20:46.040 I think,

01:20:46.720 there has to be some bit of...

01:20:48.400 Enough of you

01:20:49.540 will be revealed.

01:20:51.160 It's like,

01:20:51.600 even sometimes,

01:20:52.240 I feel like,

01:20:52.620 if I don't fact-check

01:20:53.620 certain things

01:20:54.220 and I'm learning

01:20:54.760 how to have

01:20:55.160 certain conversations,

01:20:56.360 like,

01:20:57.160 people will get an idea

01:20:58.340 of who I am

01:20:59.240 or who you are

01:20:59.960 by listening to us

01:21:00.820 for a certain period of time.

01:21:02.280 And then they can make

01:21:02.880 a fair judgment

01:21:03.520 for themselves.

01:21:04.560 And it doesn't even

01:21:05.280 have to be

01:21:06.040 a good or bad judgment.

01:21:08.680 You're not...

01:21:09.120 We're not saying

01:21:09.900 that either one of us

01:21:11.360 is good or bad.

01:21:12.860 We're probably saying

01:21:13.720 that we're both both.

01:21:14.680 We're just trying

01:21:15.480 to have a conversation together.

01:21:17.920 And I think as a listener,

01:21:19.160 you get that.

01:21:19.700 You're like,

01:21:20.020 okay,

01:21:21.380 I don't maybe vibe

01:21:22.280 with this guy.

01:21:22.720 I'm glad I got

01:21:23.200 to listen to him.

01:21:25.340 It gives you value

01:21:26.400 for your time.

01:21:27.100 I put my time in.

01:21:28.080 I'm grateful

01:21:28.460 I got to listen

01:21:29.100 to that person.

01:21:29.960 I agree with some

01:21:30.900 of the things they say.

01:21:31.640 Oh, I never thought

01:21:32.460 about that.

01:21:33.020 But you also get

01:21:33.880 to see people

01:21:34.460 as more complete.

01:21:36.580 And I think it goes back

01:21:37.300 to what you're saying,

01:21:38.660 that a lot of people can...

01:21:42.740 We're not...

01:21:43.300 People aren't as simple.

01:21:45.600 Both things can be true 0.95

01:21:46.460 all the time

01:21:47.000 for a lot of people.

01:21:47.860 And they are.

01:21:48.800 Usually they are.

01:21:49.520 Usually they are.

01:21:50.460 Usually two things are true.

01:21:51.360 And I think that's

01:21:52.160 what's a lot

01:21:53.140 happening with podcasts

01:21:53.900 is it holds

01:21:55.460 two, three, four,

01:21:57.120 seven things true

01:21:57.800 at the same time

01:21:58.440 while you're having

01:21:58.740 a conversation,

01:21:59.620 which is very normal

01:22:00.760 as opposed to

01:22:01.940 get this answer,

01:22:03.320 get this clip,

01:22:04.300 make it short,

01:22:05.420 let it...

01:22:05.880 We want to get

01:22:06.500 how we feel across

01:22:08.040 and that's what matters.

01:22:09.760 Yeah.

01:22:10.060 It's more like

01:22:10.500 the fullness of it, right?

01:22:12.560 You know,

01:22:12.800 there's this slide...

01:22:13.460 I thought about this

01:22:14.340 quite a bit

01:22:14.680 in terms of truth.

01:22:16.300 I mentioned earlier

01:22:17.080 the difference between

01:22:17.640 telling the truth

01:22:18.220 and being truthful,

01:22:19.560 like someone who's

01:22:20.040 just trying to call it

01:22:21.320 as they see it,

01:22:21.760 trying to be truthful.

01:22:22.280 You know,

01:22:22.460 when you swear

01:22:23.480 to do jury service

01:22:25.000 or actually to kind of

01:22:26.460 do testimony,

01:22:27.220 you swear...

01:22:27.780 What do you swear?

01:22:28.420 You swear to tell

01:22:29.140 the whole truth,

01:22:31.900 the truth,

01:22:32.700 nothing but the truth,

01:22:34.020 the whole truth.

01:22:34.940 The truth,

01:22:36.160 the whole truth

01:22:36.640 and nothing but the truth.

01:22:37.700 Sorry, nothing but the truth.

01:22:38.140 They make you triple down on it.

01:22:39.760 Right, but think about that.

01:22:40.920 Why don't they just say

01:22:41.520 I promise to tell the truth,

01:22:42.880 right?

01:22:43.260 The truth, yes,

01:22:44.760 the whole truth

01:22:46.100 and nothing but the truth,

01:22:47.780 right?

01:22:48.040 And actually,

01:22:48.640 the middle one

01:22:49.100 is really interesting to me

01:22:49.960 because, of course,

01:22:50.560 what you could do

01:22:51.140 is you could go to the stand

01:22:52.080 and say things

01:22:53.320 that are kind of true,

01:22:54.960 right?

01:22:55.120 So you meet the first

01:22:55.800 and the third,

01:22:57.040 but like,

01:22:57.500 yeah,

01:22:57.620 but you're missing something out.

01:22:59.240 And I think right now

01:23:00.100 people are hungry

01:23:00.600 for the whole truth.

01:23:01.520 They're actually hungry

01:23:02.040 for people to just,

01:23:03.140 look,

01:23:03.400 I'm saying it all,

01:23:04.940 you might disagree

01:23:05.680 with three of the seven things

01:23:06.800 I've said,

01:23:07.440 but there's actually

01:23:08.520 a kind of sense of which

01:23:09.660 these conversations,

01:23:10.800 I think,

01:23:12.020 are trying to get at something

01:23:13.380 more like the whole truth,

01:23:15.060 which is more

01:23:15.820 just a broader conception of it.

01:23:17.400 And you have the opportunity

01:23:18.680 in the space

01:23:19.260 to maybe get stuff wrong,

01:23:20.900 to just think out loud,

01:23:22.280 to kind of come back,

01:23:23.260 and that's completely at odds

01:23:25.580 with the old media,

01:23:27.460 which is more about

01:23:28.500 I'm going to take

01:23:29.180 every word you say literally,

01:23:31.720 right?

01:23:31.980 I'm going to take a clip of it

01:23:33.080 and I'm going to fact check you

01:23:34.160 and I'm going to,

01:23:34.540 that's not how conversations work.

01:23:37.040 And this is a very different

01:23:38.320 kind of environment

01:23:38.940 for conversation.

01:23:39.700 I agree with you

01:23:40.220 that it means you have

01:23:40.920 more authenticity,

01:23:41.880 but the thing I've come to value

01:23:43.540 more than almost anything else

01:23:45.960 when I'm talking to someone

01:23:47.000 is that this person

01:23:48.160 is trying to be truthful.

01:23:50.080 They are,

01:23:50.840 they're being on it,

01:23:52.220 they're looking stuff up,

01:23:53.440 they're trying to figure,

01:23:54.100 and if I say to them

01:23:54.840 that's not right,

01:23:55.620 it's this,

01:23:56.280 they go,

01:23:56.540 oh, interesting,

01:23:57.160 I'm going to choose,

01:23:57.620 and the same with me.

01:23:58.520 And I'm just aspiring

01:24:00.380 to try and be truthful

01:24:01.480 in everything that I do.

01:24:02.520 And if I get it wrong,

01:24:03.380 I want to be told

01:24:04.060 I'm getting it wrong,

01:24:04.880 but I just want to try

01:24:06.100 and be as honest as possible.

01:24:07.940 Yeah,

01:24:08.320 and I think then

01:24:08.860 it makes it not about you,

01:24:09.780 it makes it about

01:24:10.320 this greater presentation

01:24:11.620 of like,

01:24:12.660 of let's,

01:24:14.580 let's,

01:24:15.080 yeah,

01:24:15.320 let's just be,

01:24:16.160 let's be as honest

01:24:17.180 as we can.

01:24:18.020 And learn from each other.

01:24:19.960 So one of my weird

01:24:22.160 backstories

01:24:23.300 is that I am

01:24:24.620 a massive fan

01:24:25.800 of John Stuart Mill,

01:24:27.460 the 19th century

01:24:28.700 British liberal philosopher,

01:24:30.280 so much so that

01:24:30.860 I end up writing

01:24:31.440 his biography.

01:24:32.660 John Stuart Mill?

01:24:33.680 Let's bring up

01:24:34.080 a JPEG of him.

01:24:35.700 This is just making my day,

01:24:37.520 I got to tell you.

01:24:38.300 Oh, wow.

01:24:39.660 He also was the first person

01:24:41.180 to introduce a bill

01:24:42.260 to give women 0.74

01:24:42.780 the right to vote

01:24:43.560 in the UK.

01:24:45.300 Obviously,

01:24:45.660 he was trying to get laid too,

01:24:47.360 undeniable.

01:24:48.220 That,

01:24:48.580 in his case,

01:24:49.340 was almost certainly not true.

01:24:50.900 Although I spent a lot of time.

01:24:51.600 Really enjoyed men?

01:24:52.560 I spent a lot of,

01:24:53.140 no,

01:24:53.680 no.

01:24:54.060 He was just,

01:24:55.800 well,

01:24:56.120 he actually,

01:24:56.660 the truth is

01:24:57.240 that he had a woman

01:24:58.260 who was in love with

01:24:59.000 who was married

01:24:59.500 to somebody else.

01:25:00.680 And so it was

01:25:01.540 an unrequited situation

01:25:02.860 and so I spent

01:25:03.460 quite a bit of time

01:25:04.280 around that.

01:25:05.080 But he had this lovely idea

01:25:06.200 which is that we learn

01:25:06.900 from each other,

01:25:07.420 right?

01:25:07.560 We share,

01:25:07.980 we said we share

01:25:08.780 the truth between us.

01:25:10.480 And he said

01:25:11.360 that when you're

01:25:12.200 arguing with someone,

01:25:14.300 disagreeing with someone,

01:25:16.040 try to imagine

01:25:16.840 that you're both

01:25:17.580 trying to climb

01:25:18.680 to the top

01:25:19.700 of the same mountain

01:25:20.600 just by different routes.

01:25:22.220 And I love that idea.

01:25:24.180 And when I'm trying

01:25:24.740 to debate with someone now,

01:25:25.560 if I'm disagreeing

01:25:26.140 with someone,

01:25:26.480 I'm like,

01:25:26.820 you know,

01:25:27.060 I think I'm trying

01:25:27.520 to get to this.

01:25:28.040 They probably have got

01:25:28.700 some truth that I don't have

01:25:29.680 and that's great.

01:25:30.360 But also,

01:25:30.940 let's assume,

01:25:32.440 let's start with the assumption

01:25:33.520 that we're trying

01:25:33.920 to get to the same place.

01:25:34.840 And you've got

01:25:36.200 a different view about it.

01:25:36.940 So if I'm arguing

01:25:37.680 with a conservative

01:25:38.420 who says it's all

01:25:39.260 about marriage,

01:25:40.500 right?

01:25:40.680 We've got to get

01:25:41.000 everyone back to marriage.

01:25:41.780 And I'm like,

01:25:42.040 I'm a bit skeptical

01:25:42.860 about that.

01:25:43.580 I don't think

01:25:44.160 that's because that person 0.72

01:25:45.280 is a crazy right-wing 1.00

01:25:46.520 misogynist who wants 1.00

01:25:47.480 to kind of entrap 0.99

01:25:48.480 women again. 1.00

01:25:49.120 I think they want

01:25:50.100 a better life.

01:25:50.740 I think they want

01:25:51.080 better families.

01:25:51.680 I think they want

01:25:51.960 happier children,

01:25:52.740 which is what I want.

01:25:53.840 So we're just arguing

01:25:54.700 about the means.

01:25:55.240 It is kind of interesting

01:25:56.360 how you can have two people

01:25:57.500 that want the exact same thing.

01:25:59.100 One will say

01:25:59.780 that they're this side,

01:26:00.840 one will say

01:26:01.140 that side,

01:26:01.700 and they cannot 1.00

01:26:02.300 agree on shit. 1.00

01:26:03.580 I don't understand. 1.00

01:26:04.740 There's some minutiae

01:26:05.660 in there that I can't

01:26:06.620 even figure out.

01:26:07.960 Yeah.

01:26:08.460 Because they'll want

01:26:09.660 the exact same things.

01:26:10.940 They could even write,

01:26:12.300 these are the three

01:26:12.740 things I want.

01:26:13.660 And the other side

01:26:14.900 will write,

01:26:15.140 these are the three

01:26:15.500 things I want.

01:26:16.180 But if they don't

01:26:17.260 each say that they're

01:26:18.280 on the same side,

01:26:19.200 then they will

01:26:20.340 find a way

01:26:22.540 to disagree.

01:26:23.160 Because they want

01:26:23.800 to disagree.

01:26:24.700 Because at that point,

01:26:25.640 that's become kind of

01:26:26.340 a bad form of tribalism.

01:26:28.400 There's this really

01:26:28.940 interesting,

01:26:29.760 one of the things

01:26:30.520 that really is disturbing

01:26:31.660 me about political

01:26:32.340 trends recently

01:26:33.120 is the clustering

01:26:34.420 of ideas now.

01:26:35.560 And so actually,

01:26:36.620 now if you're

01:26:36.960 on one side

01:26:37.520 or the other,

01:26:38.100 you have to agree with.

01:26:39.280 I agree.

01:26:39.900 And so it used

01:26:40.720 to be more possible

01:26:41.420 to kind of like,

01:26:42.100 well, I agree

01:26:42.420 with that side

01:26:43.000 on this,

01:26:43.480 and this side

01:26:44.040 on this,

01:26:44.520 and whatever.

01:26:44.880 And everyone

01:26:45.220 was a kind

01:26:45.840 of different mixture.

01:26:46.780 The idea that

01:26:47.660 anybody is going

01:26:48.760 to subscribe

01:26:49.260 to all the views

01:26:50.360 on the left

01:26:50.960 or all the views

01:26:52.040 on the right

01:26:52.460 is dystopian.

01:26:54.340 Terrifying.

01:26:54.800 And no one even

01:26:55.140 knows all of them either.

01:26:56.360 And they're also

01:26:57.020 distorted anyway.

01:26:58.320 And then if they're

01:26:59.260 told, by the way,

01:27:00.260 that that policy idea

01:27:01.400 is being proposed

01:27:02.420 by your guy,

01:27:03.700 then they suddenly

01:27:04.180 support it, right?

01:27:05.280 And if it's being proposed

01:27:06.200 by the other guy,

01:27:08.800 you're suddenly

01:27:09.280 against it.

01:27:10.520 And so what's

01:27:10.940 actually happening now

01:27:11.640 is you're defining

01:27:12.480 your position

01:27:13.420 based as much on,

01:27:15.660 well, what does he think?

01:27:17.080 Because I don't like him.

01:27:18.740 And I'll take

01:27:19.140 the other view, right?

01:27:20.020 So you saw this

01:27:20.780 massive swing towards

01:27:21.860 being much more

01:27:22.440 pro-immigration,

01:27:23.460 for example,

01:27:24.000 among Democrats

01:27:24.720 after Donald Trump

01:27:25.560 came to office in 2016

01:27:26.900 because he was

01:27:27.780 so anti-immigration.

01:27:29.300 Right before that,

01:27:29.940 Democrats were pretty 0.51

01:27:30.500 moderate on immigration,

01:27:31.520 but they suddenly

01:27:32.040 became really,

01:27:33.020 really pro-immigration.

01:27:34.640 Why?

01:27:35.380 The only explanation

01:27:36.200 why is because

01:27:36.680 he was so anti it.

01:27:38.240 And you see it

01:27:38.620 in both directions,

01:27:39.520 right?

01:27:39.680 You can see it like

01:27:40.340 it's their four-

01:27:40.800 Yeah, well, some people

01:27:40.860 say also, though,

01:27:41.600 that they wanted

01:27:42.360 to load states up

01:27:44.980 so that they could

01:27:45.820 create more voters

01:27:47.640 in certain states,

01:27:48.520 you know?

01:27:48.840 Yeah, I've never

01:27:49.340 understood that argument.

01:27:50.720 Really?

01:27:51.120 Yeah, because they

01:27:51.540 can't vote.

01:27:52.600 Right, but if you

01:27:53.340 legalize them,

01:27:54.200 if you just bring them

01:27:55.020 in and then you find

01:27:55.980 a quick pass to

01:27:56.640 legalization,

01:27:57.240 then they would be

01:27:57.760 able to vote.

01:27:58.280 Well, one thing

01:27:59.160 I will say,

01:27:59.840 I hope that if

01:28:00.840 that idea is still

01:28:01.920 out there,

01:28:02.420 that the results

01:28:03.860 of the last election

01:28:04.800 kill it for good

01:28:06.380 because we saw 0.99

01:28:07.260 a massive swing

01:28:08.320 to the Republicans

01:28:09.460 among Hispanic Americans.

01:28:11.340 And given that

01:28:11.740 most of the immigrants

01:28:12.540 that people are worried

01:28:13.200 about are from

01:28:14.740 Mexico and

01:28:15.840 Southern America.

01:28:17.020 I don't know if

01:28:17.440 they are, though.

01:28:18.140 I think a lot of

01:28:18.720 the immigrants 0.70

01:28:19.160 that we're getting

01:28:19.740 are also from,

01:28:21.500 like, they were

01:28:22.320 getting so many

01:28:23.120 Haitians and stuff.

01:28:24.380 Right, but they're

01:28:24.740 not reliable

01:28:25.380 Democrat voters

01:28:26.200 is my point.

01:28:27.460 Right, so any idea

01:28:28.380 that, like, the

01:28:29.040 Democrats are trying

01:28:30.000 to do this because

01:28:30.720 they think, well,

01:28:31.220 if we bring them

01:28:31.740 all in and then

01:28:32.740 legalize them, yay,

01:28:34.800 well, that's not

01:28:35.760 true.

01:28:36.560 Right, the idea

01:28:37.300 that those groups

01:28:37.980 are just going to

01:28:38.460 reliably vote Democrat,

01:28:39.620 that has gone out

01:28:40.380 of the window.

01:28:41.360 I don't know.

01:28:42.060 I think if I come in

01:28:42.960 and somebody's feeding

01:28:43.800 me the first hand

01:28:44.540 that feeds me,

01:28:45.160 that's probably the

01:28:45.720 hand that I would

01:28:46.700 think that I'm

01:28:47.880 going to cater to.

01:28:49.240 I don't know if

01:28:50.080 that's a definite

01:28:50.860 thing that they were

01:28:52.440 doing.

01:28:53.020 You know what I'm

01:28:53.440 saying?

01:28:53.760 It's hard to say

01:28:55.420 if it is or isn't,

01:28:56.340 but letting 21

01:28:57.460 million immigrants

01:28:59.260 in, you know,

01:29:00.120 we had two Border

01:29:00.940 Patrol agents on

01:29:01.720 and they said it

01:29:02.260 was a nightmare

01:29:03.700 for them.

01:29:04.460 You know, it was

01:29:04.760 a nightmare for

01:29:05.300 them and their

01:29:05.760 families, the stress

01:29:06.640 that they went

01:29:07.160 through, the fact

01:29:09.040 that they would

01:29:09.740 just have to get

01:29:10.680 an agreement from

01:29:11.900 somebody that they

01:29:12.520 would come and

01:29:13.060 meet the agent,

01:29:14.500 like a middle

01:29:15.700 person.

01:29:16.280 They would, like,

01:29:16.980 have, like, a

01:29:17.500 connection piece to

01:29:18.440 America and they'd 0.84

01:29:20.000 have to sign an

01:29:20.860 agreement that they

01:29:21.460 would come back and

01:29:22.060 meet that person at

01:29:22.960 a certain time or

01:29:23.740 place and never

01:29:24.420 show up and then

01:29:25.080 there's no trail for

01:29:26.720 them.

01:29:26.940 It was a, the plan

01:29:28.720 was not, there was

01:29:29.940 no plan, it felt

01:29:31.080 like.

01:29:32.080 That's a better

01:29:32.820 explanation than

01:29:33.980 that there was this

01:29:34.600 secret plan to

01:29:35.800 create millions of

01:29:36.460 voters.

01:29:36.700 Yeah, I don't know

01:29:37.180 if there are or not.

01:29:37.680 That's a better, no

01:29:38.280 plan is better.

01:29:39.300 And again, it's an

01:29:39.920 example of, like,

01:29:40.620 the extremes winning,

01:29:41.580 right?

01:29:41.740 It's like, actually,

01:29:43.020 most people have

01:29:43.780 probably got pretty

01:29:44.740 moderate views on

01:29:45.880 immigration, or at

01:29:46.580 least used to, which

01:29:47.340 is we should control

01:29:48.400 our borders, which is

01:29:49.840 not a controversial

01:29:51.220 idea in any other

01:29:52.480 country in the world.

01:29:53.240 Because you can't

01:29:53.620 know a business unless

01:29:54.480 you know the

01:29:55.380 inventory, right?

01:29:56.420 How can you do

01:29:57.140 anything?

01:29:57.820 It's not like, the

01:29:58.900 idea in any European

01:29:59.960 country that, like,

01:30:01.360 people should only be 0.65

01:30:02.480 there legally, like,

01:30:03.820 every European country

01:30:04.760 thinks that, right?

01:30:05.720 So it's not, of course,

01:30:06.960 we've now had so many

01:30:07.820 people come in that

01:30:08.480 we've got a different

01:30:08.980 problem, but we should

01:30:09.880 secure our borders.

01:30:10.840 We should actually have

01:30:11.720 pretty good legal

01:30:12.780 immigration systems.

01:30:13.760 I'm biased.

01:30:14.260 I agree.

01:30:14.680 I'm biased.

01:30:15.280 I'm an immigrant.

01:30:15.840 But, like, good, legal

01:30:17.160 immigration has been

01:30:17.980 great for this country.

01:30:19.240 Yeah.

01:30:19.560 Properly controlled,

01:30:20.540 legal immigration.

01:30:21.040 Good, right?

01:30:21.760 And so the idea that

01:30:22.960 you're either for or

01:30:23.720 against immigration 0.97

01:30:24.540 strikes me as 1.00

01:30:25.240 completely dumb. 1.00

01:30:26.420 You've got to be, 1.00

01:30:27.080 what kind of

01:30:27.600 immigration do we

01:30:28.280 need and want?

01:30:29.080 Yeah, you've got to

01:30:29.480 think a little step

01:30:30.200 further.

01:30:30.640 But the trouble is,

01:30:31.740 the way that our

01:30:32.140 politics works right

01:30:33.020 now is that you've

01:30:33.800 basically either got to

01:30:34.680 be, like, anti-immigration

01:30:36.020 and anti-immigrants, or

01:30:38.500 you've got to be

01:30:39.020 open border.

01:30:39.720 I'm exaggerating a bit,

01:30:40.940 but, like, that's

01:30:41.460 how it feels.

01:30:42.400 Yeah, I agree.

01:30:43.000 Yeah, that's how it

01:30:43.480 feels.

01:30:43.820 Well, that's another

01:30:44.540 issue that we just have.

01:30:45.580 We don't have enough

01:30:46.180 parties.

01:30:46.640 We don't have enough

01:30:47.140 parties, and there's

01:30:48.180 not enough, and I

01:30:50.020 think that it's also

01:30:50.780 kept that way, as,

01:30:52.740 you know, capitalism is

01:30:54.400 just, you know, there's

01:30:55.560 only so much you can do,

01:30:56.880 you know?

01:30:57.300 It's like, you can only

01:30:58.920 do so much.

01:30:59.880 And then there's a lot

01:31:00.800 of darker forces at

01:31:01.840 play, I think, that

01:31:02.460 just care about finances

01:31:03.580 on no matter what side

01:31:05.140 of things you're on.

01:31:06.240 And then I don't even

01:31:07.140 know if America still

01:31:07.880 owns itself anymore, to

01:31:09.120 be honest with you.

01:31:09.960 I feel like we're just

01:31:10.920 an LLC of the

01:31:12.420 Middle East sometimes,

01:31:13.480 but, you know,

01:31:15.200 different people think

01:31:16.060 different things.

01:31:16.700 I really, the thing

01:31:17.600 that I worry most about

01:31:20.120 is that we lose our

01:31:22.000 sense of optimism.

01:31:23.640 I agree.

01:31:24.440 That's the next thing

01:31:25.120 to go.

01:31:25.520 And when that goes,

01:31:26.540 it gets really bad.

01:31:27.720 That's bad for any

01:31:28.100 country, but I think

01:31:28.880 it's virtually

01:31:29.460 existential for America

01:31:30.620 because, like, one of

01:31:31.660 the things that people

01:31:32.220 always say about

01:31:32.820 Americans, they're like, 1.00

01:31:33.900 oh, they don't think

01:31:34.720 about, they have no

01:31:35.520 sense of history, you

01:31:36.440 know?

01:31:36.540 Whereas, like, in

01:31:37.260 Europe, like, all we

01:31:38.300 think about is history,

01:31:39.600 right?

01:31:40.240 Like, in the UK, one

01:31:41.460 thing I ran away from

01:31:42.560 is just, like, it's

01:31:43.220 always Winston Churchill

01:31:45.140 and World War II and

01:31:46.260 World War I and the

01:31:47.400 War of the Roses.

01:31:48.320 I have relatives who

01:31:49.700 fought in those wars.

01:31:50.500 I'm not, like, they're

01:31:51.280 important, but, like,

01:31:52.260 we're always looking

01:31:52.980 back, basically, Europe 0.74

01:31:54.180 feels like it kind of has

01:31:55.160 been looking in the

01:31:55.900 rearview mirror, right,

01:31:57.200 for centuries, whereas

01:31:57.820 Americans are like, yeah, 0.99

01:31:59.120 that happened, that was

01:31:59.780 interesting, but we're

01:32:00.800 going there, we're going

01:32:01.900 to the moon, we're going

01:32:02.780 to wherever, we're going

01:32:03.900 to, like, we're going to

01:32:04.960 build a better

01:32:07.420 economy, there is this

01:32:07.440 thing about, like,

01:32:08.160 looking forward, which

01:32:09.640 I've always loved about

01:32:10.660 America.

01:32:11.340 It's one of the reasons

01:32:11.740 I wanted to come here,

01:32:12.600 I wanted to finish raising

01:32:13.460 my kids here, it was,

01:32:14.240 like, that future

01:32:15.160 orientation. 1.00

01:32:15.960 That fucking Corvette. 1.00

01:32:16.580 And I really, I worry 1.00

01:32:17.500 about that on both sides

01:32:18.460 now, right?

01:32:18.860 I don't, like, you have

01:32:19.500 American carnage, you 0.98

01:32:21.120 know, from the right, and

01:32:21.880 you have climate

01:32:22.320 catastrophe from the left,

01:32:23.900 take your pick, but

01:32:24.760 that catastrophizing, that

01:32:26.500 sense, for the first

01:32:27.980 time ever, we're seeing

01:32:28.860 people now say that they

01:32:30.200 are not confident their

01:32:31.160 kids will be better off

01:32:32.020 than them.

01:32:33.180 That's a huge problem.

01:32:34.960 In a country like

01:32:36.000 America.

01:32:36.860 And I think it's based on

01:32:38.280 this problem we were just

01:32:39.360 talking about, which is

01:32:40.460 this kind of zero-sum

01:32:42.860 idea that, like, somehow

01:32:44.280 there's only so much of

01:32:45.900 something to go around,

01:32:47.140 money or empathy or

01:32:49.320 whatever.

01:32:49.880 And so if group A is

01:32:51.360 getting more of it, that

01:32:52.280 means group B is getting

01:32:53.600 less of it, right?

01:32:54.920 So you see that.

01:32:56.060 The male-female thing. 0.88

01:32:57.040 Exactly.

01:32:57.760 It's like, well, like, we

01:32:59.540 can't, if women are doing 1.00

01:33:01.060 better, maybe that's why

01:33:01.780 men are doing worse.

01:33:02.700 And for women to rise, men 0.93

01:33:04.100 have got to fall, like,

01:33:05.300 crazy stuff.

01:33:06.420 But people think that.

01:33:07.420 Same on immigration, by

01:33:08.360 the way.

01:33:08.540 People think more

01:33:09.560 immigrants, bad for 1.00

01:33:10.600 America, et cetera.

01:33:11.160 We're all constantly

01:33:11.900 thinking about zero-sum,

01:33:13.520 whereas America at its best

01:33:14.660 has always been positive

01:33:15.560 sum.

01:33:15.900 In other words, we can

01:33:17.300 grow.

01:33:17.860 Right.

01:33:18.080 We grow the cake and

01:33:19.280 argue less about how to

01:33:20.340 divide it up.

01:33:20.840 We can all be more.

01:33:22.100 We can get better.

01:33:22.880 We can get bigger and

01:33:23.700 like all rise.

01:33:25.220 And I think that's been

01:33:26.000 lost, not least on

01:33:27.040 gender.

01:33:27.820 But let's talk about some

01:33:28.560 escapes for men.

01:33:29.320 Let's talk about how do

01:33:30.080 men, you know, how do we

01:33:31.760 combat, like, some of this

01:33:33.060 illness and because men 0.74

01:33:34.860 are resilient.

01:33:36.180 Men are warriors, I

01:33:37.520 believe, in our hearts

01:33:38.460 and in our spirits.

01:33:40.680 And I believe that I've

01:33:42.340 seen enough connectivity

01:33:43.360 amongst men that we

01:33:44.800 want to move forward,

01:33:47.720 right?

01:33:47.920 And we want to do it

01:33:48.620 together.

01:33:49.420 What are ways that you

01:33:50.700 recommend?

01:33:52.820 Well, we've talked about

01:33:54.120 male spaces and having 0.83

01:33:55.340 like groups and spaces

01:33:57.040 for men.

01:33:57.600 I think that's useful.

01:33:58.180 So starting one of those

01:33:58.940 is good.

01:33:59.380 Yeah.

01:33:59.680 And if you're like, and

01:34:00.800 you're seeing that, there's

01:34:01.680 this thing called the men's

01:34:02.620 sheds movement.

01:34:03.420 Have you heard of that?

01:34:04.100 It's coming over from

01:34:04.880 Australia.

01:34:05.320 It's just guys who get

01:34:06.040 into like a shed and start

01:34:07.060 fixing stuff together.

01:34:08.040 Really bring it up.

01:34:09.260 Shoulder to shoulder.

01:34:10.340 The men's sheds

01:34:11.060 movement.

01:34:11.640 Oh, I love this.

01:34:12.360 It's basically about guys

01:34:13.420 and they get in a shed and

01:34:14.260 they fix stuff, right?

01:34:15.320 And it's very male because 0.98

01:34:17.220 it's about fixing stuff.

01:34:18.640 U.S.

01:34:18.880 Men's Sheds Association has

01:34:20.380 partnered with Grouper to

01:34:21.540 offer eligible members a 65

01:34:23.920 or older payments for

01:34:24.940 staying healthy and socially

01:34:25.940 active.

01:34:26.440 Okay.

01:34:27.580 So the men's sheds, can you

01:34:29.020 do an image of it?

01:34:29.800 Just U.S.

01:34:30.260 men, can we just do men's

01:34:31.400 shed movement images?

01:34:33.420 Oh, there's some fellas 1.00

01:34:34.160 right there building a

01:34:35.040 little, uh, like, cause

01:34:36.460 like when men, what is that?

01:34:37.780 A birdhouse or something?

01:34:39.100 Men have to be doing 1.00

01:34:40.180 something else while they're

01:34:42.380 Shif a robe right there?

01:34:43.160 While they're being

01:34:43.800 together, right?

01:34:44.800 Not, like, it's just harder

01:34:46.640 for us to just be together.

01:34:48.220 Like, when was the last time

01:34:49.380 a friend of yours said,

01:34:50.100 let's just meet for a coffee

01:34:51.140 and then sit down and stare

01:34:52.140 at each other for two hours?

01:34:53.300 Yeah, that guy is obviously

01:34:55.340 trying to be like sexy buddies

01:34:59.000 or whatever, I think.

01:35:00.260 And I think, yeah, you've got

01:35:01.380 to find something to do

01:35:02.260 together.

01:35:02.760 Paint something.

01:35:03.540 Look for something.

01:35:04.540 Let's go look for something.

01:35:05.360 Be of service.

01:35:06.120 Yes.

01:35:06.400 Find service.

01:35:07.120 I think that's hugely

01:35:07.860 important.

01:35:08.480 Boys and girls, like, uh,

01:35:09.640 join your local boys and

01:35:10.640 girls club chapter.

01:35:11.380 You can volunteer there.

01:35:12.700 Um, what's another one

01:35:13.780 somebody said?

01:35:14.240 You can be, uh, you can be

01:35:16.660 a big brother.

01:35:17.500 Yeah, that was a good one.

01:35:18.680 I'm just going through the

01:35:19.420 process for that myself.

01:35:20.940 Congrats.

01:35:21.140 Signing up to do that.

01:35:22.560 Yeah, I want to do that.

01:35:23.480 Being, like, just, I know

01:35:25.160 you talked to Scott about

01:35:25.940 this, but just being a

01:35:26.900 presence, I think, is

01:35:27.720 hugely important.

01:35:28.500 And, like, raising other

01:35:29.320 people's kids.

01:35:30.020 Like, there's this line,

01:35:31.140 it takes a village to

01:35:32.320 raise a child.

01:35:32.880 That's true, but here's

01:35:33.900 the thing.

01:35:34.880 Some of the villagers need

01:35:35.820 to be men.

01:35:37.420 And, like, we're in that

01:35:38.800 village, and we're helping

01:35:39.460 to raise those kids.

01:35:40.280 Our neighbor's kids, you

01:35:41.420 know, it does, that

01:35:42.560 statement that it takes a

01:35:44.080 village is right.

01:35:44.980 Oh, you don't realize as a 0.99

01:35:46.200 parent, if there's a kid

01:35:47.120 hanging out of your house

01:35:48.040 sometimes, one of your

01:35:48.920 kids' friends or something,

01:35:50.420 you have a ton of influence

01:35:51.900 on that kid.

01:35:52.600 Totally.

01:35:53.020 I mean, I got so much

01:35:54.540 influence from most of my

01:35:56.360 influence.

01:35:56.800 You realize how

01:35:58.140 important, how many men

01:35:59.040 there are out there who

01:36:00.440 sometimes just kind of need

01:36:01.480 to be asked.

01:36:02.200 There was this example

01:36:03.780 that happened in a school,

01:36:04.880 I think it was a

01:36:05.300 predominantly black school,

01:36:06.800 and they had this day where 0.54

01:36:07.960 they were going to teach

01:36:08.700 the boys how to tie a tie.

01:36:11.400 And the dads were going to

01:36:12.600 come in with their sons and

01:36:15.000 kind of teach their sons how

01:36:16.420 to tie a tie.

01:36:17.840 But then they realized that

01:36:18.980 half the dads were not

01:36:19.740 there.

01:36:20.500 Half the boys didn't have

01:36:21.480 dads, didn't have fathers.

01:36:23.120 Or their fathers were in

01:36:24.140 prison, or they'd gone

01:36:24.940 away, or whatever.

01:36:25.500 And so they then really

01:36:26.960 realized this was going to

01:36:27.580 be a huge problem because

01:36:28.640 some of the boys were going

01:36:29.820 to have their dad come in

01:36:30.940 and do it, and the others

01:36:31.520 were going to feel left

01:36:32.160 out.

01:36:32.380 So they just did a call out

01:36:33.780 to the community.

01:36:34.560 I think it was just, I

01:36:35.040 don't even know what it

01:36:35.520 was, like a Facebook

01:36:36.180 caller.

01:36:36.780 Like, could we get some

01:36:38.100 volunteers?

01:36:39.120 We just need some men to 0.87

01:36:40.060 kind of come in and help

01:36:40.740 these boys.

01:36:41.760 They had something like

01:36:42.820 five times as many men

01:36:44.080 as they needed to.

01:36:45.300 These guys just all came.

01:36:47.160 It's really beautiful.

01:36:49.300 So men are looking for 0.66

01:36:50.720 it.

01:36:50.940 Yes.

01:36:51.360 Just need to be

01:36:52.620 asked and called.

01:36:54.480 And the other thing I'll

01:36:55.660 say, because we haven't

01:36:56.260 had a chance to talk about

01:36:57.220 this yet, is that the fact

01:36:59.940 that male teachers have

01:37:00.960 become so much less

01:37:01.840 common, I think, is a

01:37:02.540 real problem.

01:37:03.280 Yeah.

01:37:03.440 It's gone from 33% male in

01:37:05.180 the 80s to 23% male now,

01:37:07.620 and it continues to fall.

01:37:10.120 And I think that's a

01:37:11.220 problem for all kinds of

01:37:12.100 reasons.

01:37:12.460 I think that for boys to

01:37:14.180 sort of see men in a

01:37:15.080 classroom, to actually have

01:37:16.720 them as role models, also

01:37:17.860 to see that education is a

01:37:19.220 thing that, like, men care

01:37:20.160 about as well.

01:37:21.200 Oh, that's a great point.

01:37:22.120 Yeah, one of my greatest

01:37:22.880 influences was this guy,

01:37:23.920 Charles Aldrich.

01:37:24.560 He was my teacher.

01:37:25.080 He was missing a finger.

01:37:26.940 And, um, but...

01:37:28.180 How did he lose his

01:37:28.960 finger?

01:37:29.400 You know what happened to

01:37:30.260 him?

01:37:30.340 He was at a baseball game

01:37:31.480 cheering on his son.

01:37:32.820 He stood up.

01:37:33.860 His wedding ring got

01:37:34.700 caught on a piece of

01:37:35.440 metal on the bleachers and

01:37:36.380 pulled his finger right

01:37:37.080 off.

01:37:38.180 I do know I wish I

01:37:38.940 hadn't asked now, but

01:37:39.780 God bless him.

01:37:40.900 Pretty crazy.

01:37:41.500 And my dad was missing a

01:37:43.040 finger.

01:37:43.840 And so I just related.

01:37:45.280 I was like, oh, God

01:37:46.120 wants these men without

01:37:47.100 fingers to love me or

01:37:48.120 whatever.

01:37:48.460 You know, that's how I was

01:37:48.980 thinking as a kid.

01:37:49.700 It was just crazy.

01:37:50.440 But that's how you think

01:37:51.280 as a kid.

01:37:51.720 Yeah.

01:37:52.120 Okay.

01:37:52.400 So he was a huge

01:37:53.600 influence on you.

01:37:54.540 Yeah.

01:37:54.980 Right?

01:37:55.360 Oh, yeah.

01:37:55.940 He was like...

01:37:56.500 Same for me.

01:37:56.920 I had this teacher, Mr.

01:37:57.820 Wyatt, English teacher.

01:37:58.980 And up until that point,

01:37:59.780 we were all like, you

01:38:00.380 know, words and poems. 1.00

01:38:02.220 Yeah, Wyatt's a fuck. 1.00

01:38:03.180 Yeah. 1.00

01:38:04.400 And a bunch of 15,

01:38:06.340 16-year-old boys.

01:38:07.740 Oh, yeah.

01:38:07.900 And then we had Mr.

01:38:08.560 Wyatt.

01:38:08.980 And Mr.

01:38:09.440 Wyatt was a Korean

01:38:10.880 war veteran.

01:38:12.280 He was a bus driver in

01:38:13.740 part-time.

01:38:14.520 He was total curmudgeon.

01:38:16.200 And he had us reading...

01:38:17.500 Korean bus driver sounds

01:38:18.640 very...

01:38:19.600 No, no, no.

01:38:20.260 Risque.

01:38:20.620 He was a Korean veteran.

01:38:21.760 He'd fought in the Korean

01:38:22.480 war.

01:38:22.660 Oh, a Korean veteran.

01:38:22.840 Sorry.

01:38:23.060 So he'd fought in the

01:38:23.600 Korean war, yeah. 0.83

01:38:24.540 And he was just like this

01:38:26.240 curmudgeonly guy.

01:38:27.880 But he had us reading this

01:38:29.140 poetry and he loved it so

01:38:31.160 much that we ended up

01:38:32.100 loving it and getting into

01:38:33.320 it.

01:38:33.520 And I was like, huh, maybe

01:38:34.280 this whole writing words

01:38:36.040 thing.

01:38:36.800 I used to be in remedial

01:38:37.700 English way back before that.

01:38:38.940 But maybe it's...

01:38:40.320 Hey, maybe guys can do

01:38:42.100 this too.

01:38:42.840 And it was a huge change

01:38:44.240 for me.

01:38:44.620 And I mentioned before

01:38:45.960 that my son is now

01:38:47.680 teaching in Baltimore

01:38:48.840 City.

01:38:49.880 That's one.

01:38:50.820 But we're like missing

01:38:51.600 about a million men if we

01:38:52.780 were to get close to

01:38:54.080 gender equality. 0.78

01:38:55.520 I'm not saying we'll get

01:38:56.180 to that.

01:38:56.780 But I think that the best

01:38:58.400 answer to some of the

01:38:59.720 problems that a lot of

01:39:00.520 boys have got is real

01:39:01.720 living flesh and blood

01:39:04.300 men in their lives.

01:39:06.300 Their dads, their

01:39:07.120 neighbors, their uncles,

01:39:07.860 but also their teachers.

01:39:08.800 And the other thing, the

01:39:10.280 other thing male teachers

01:39:11.100 do, they coach.

01:39:13.180 Between 30 and 40% of male

01:39:15.820 teachers are also coaches,

01:39:17.520 much higher than for

01:39:18.640 women, for all kinds of 1.00

01:39:19.920 reasons we could go into.

01:39:20.900 But the point is simply

01:39:22.260 that for every male

01:39:24.160 teacher, you get like half

01:39:25.240 a coach, right?

01:39:26.240 And so if we want more

01:39:27.940 male coaches to be

01:39:29.200 coaching our boys'

01:39:30.340 sports teams, et cetera,

01:39:31.240 we need more male 1.00

01:39:32.220 teachers.

01:39:32.980 And I can't believe that

01:39:34.340 we're just letting the

01:39:35.120 share of male teachers

01:39:36.060 just go down and down and

01:39:37.400 down and down and no one's

01:39:38.740 doing anything about it.

01:39:40.020 Yeah, especially when we

01:39:40.820 had a great TV show here

01:39:41.940 called Prince, Vice

01:39:43.060 Principals or whatever. 1.00

01:39:44.800 And that shit, you'd 1.00

01:39:46.060 think what it helped do 1.00

01:39:46.680 was with Danny McBride

01:39:49.600 was in it.

01:39:50.200 How long ago was that?

01:39:51.100 It's a couple of years

01:39:51.660 ago, so it might help a

01:39:53.040 little bit, but definitely

01:39:54.620 it might have upped the

01:39:55.320 vibes of some of these

01:39:56.080 guys being teachers.

01:39:56.840 Yeah, and also like

01:39:57.420 Abbott, do you know

01:39:58.000 Abbott Elementary?

01:39:59.320 Yeah, people like that

01:40:00.440 TV show.

01:40:01.200 That's got a bunch of

01:40:02.000 male teachers in it too,

01:40:03.120 which is like my life.

01:40:03.720 So maybe you just need

01:40:04.560 influence that.

01:40:05.240 Like I remember when I was

01:40:05.940 a kid, they had Coach

01:40:06.820 was on and stuff like

01:40:07.720 that, but I guess it

01:40:08.660 didn't really resonate

01:40:09.800 that much, but they

01:40:10.520 had like, what was that

01:40:12.240 TV, Art, Dead Poets

01:40:14.500 Society or whatever.

01:40:15.480 Yeah, Robin Williams.

01:40:16.920 Yeah.

01:40:17.420 But I guess we, there

01:40:18.720 was the one with, they

01:40:21.340 set up with Take a

01:40:21.980 Man's, who's that guy?

01:40:23.920 Malcolm L.

01:40:24.980 Jackson or whatever

01:40:25.700 that guy's name was.

01:40:27.300 No, it's, he looks like

01:40:29.060 kind of older, but still

01:40:31.340 they said it would take a

01:40:32.900 man 600 years to get out

01:40:34.340 of the CF prison.

01:40:35.220 You know what I'm

01:40:35.460 talking about?

01:40:35.880 I do not.

01:40:36.220 He's like that.

01:40:36.680 No.

01:40:37.420 He's, um.

01:40:38.420 That was a good accent,

01:40:39.580 but I don't know.

01:40:40.060 Thanks, he's in Shawshank

01:40:40.820 Redemption.

01:40:41.540 You know what his name,

01:40:42.180 his name is, uh, Morgan

01:40:43.560 Freeman.

01:40:44.820 He played a school teacher.

01:40:46.780 Really?

01:40:47.140 Lean on Me, it was called.

01:40:48.380 Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:40:49.080 Yeah.

01:40:49.560 But also there's this new one.

01:40:50.400 Lean on Me.

01:40:50.780 There's this other one,

01:40:51.440 The Holdovers, a couple of,

01:40:53.060 just like a couple of years

01:40:53.820 ago, um, with Paul

01:40:55.260 Giametti.

01:40:56.220 Is that my name saying his

01:40:56.740 name right?

01:40:56.940 Oh, yes, I saw that.

01:40:57.800 Yeah.

01:40:58.160 And again, it's like,

01:40:58.960 really good.

01:40:59.660 And what those things have

01:41:00.840 in common is there's this

01:41:02.120 kind of relate, this

01:41:03.000 relationship between this

01:41:04.100 kind of older guy, this

01:41:05.680 kind of younger man, and

01:41:06.820 they kind of learn from

01:41:07.480 each other and they go

01:41:08.260 through some stuff together

01:41:09.220 and it's like, it's really

01:41:10.940 beautiful.

01:41:12.240 Um, it was, that's a cool

01:41:13.460 point.

01:41:13.860 That's a great movie.

01:41:14.520 And it just, and it's kind

01:41:15.840 of, I was really pleased to

01:41:17.020 see that, uh, cause it came

01:41:18.540 up again with this thing.

01:41:19.440 But one of the things that

01:41:20.300 really frustrates me is that

01:41:21.440 people will say, oh, boys

01:41:22.540 need more, you know, we

01:41:23.460 need more positive male role

01:41:25.020 models.

01:41:25.500 And I'm like, we do.

01:41:26.500 It's actually, you can't

01:41:27.680 create them out of thin air,

01:41:29.060 right?

01:41:29.220 You can't just like add, add,

01:41:30.800 add water and create male 1.00

01:41:32.120 role model.

01:41:32.840 But one thing we could do is

01:41:34.420 make sure we have a lot more

01:41:35.820 men in our schools, right?

01:41:37.380 That's something we could do.

01:41:38.760 We could have scholarships,

01:41:39.760 we could have outreach

01:41:40.420 programs, we could be

01:41:41.340 incentivizing men.

01:41:42.600 We could also be making it

01:41:43.600 much easier to become a

01:41:45.460 teacher as like a second

01:41:46.360 career.

01:41:47.100 Cause one of the things that

01:41:48.420 we know is that men are

01:41:49.660 much more likely to go into

01:41:50.900 teaching later.

01:41:52.440 Ah, right.

01:41:53.200 They do something else first

01:41:54.540 and then go, but it's

01:41:55.720 really hard to do that.

01:41:56.940 Well, it shouldn't be that

01:41:57.880 hard.

01:41:58.240 No, I agree with that.

01:41:59.560 That's a great point.

01:42:00.340 So we'll start instead of

01:42:00.940 lamenting the lack of male

01:42:02.160 role models.

01:42:02.560 Right.

01:42:02.780 How about, how about having

01:42:03.820 more male teachers?

01:42:04.720 And I would love it if more

01:42:05.860 politicians, I actually was

01:42:07.420 kept waiting for Tim Walsh on

01:42:08.900 the Democrat side.

01:42:09.920 We asked him to come on

01:42:10.900 here.

01:42:11.060 We asked him and Kamala to

01:42:12.680 come on here, but I would

01:42:13.340 have loved to have talked

01:42:13.940 with Tim Walsh.

01:42:14.600 Tim Walsh would have been a

01:42:15.320 perfect person to kind of

01:42:16.340 lead that campaign, wouldn't

01:42:17.220 he?

01:42:17.760 Oh, his whole interview, he

01:42:18.920 seemed like this cheery kind

01:42:20.660 of guy, you know?

01:42:21.320 But he's like high school,

01:42:22.060 high school teacher.

01:42:23.160 So he was the first actually

01:42:25.460 career public school teacher

01:42:26.840 to run for such high office.

01:42:28.320 He was also a coach.

01:42:29.700 Imagine if he'd done a

01:42:30.660 campaign around, like, we

01:42:32.120 want to recruit more men to

01:42:33.300 teaching.

01:42:33.720 We want more men teaching, 0.97

01:42:35.220 coaching, helping, like a

01:42:36.820 really positive pro-male

01:42:38.380 campaign.

01:42:39.200 I think he would have been

01:42:39.780 an amazing spokesman for

01:42:41.020 that.

01:42:41.220 And I think it could have

01:42:41.680 been bipartisan.

01:42:42.660 I think he could have found

01:42:43.380 some people on the right that

01:42:44.240 would have agreed with that.

01:42:45.700 Yeah, I think, I don't know

01:42:46.840 if he felt like all the time

01:42:47.940 like he was making all of his

01:42:49.200 own choices.

01:42:49.780 That's the only thing about

01:42:50.400 some of these parties.

01:42:51.100 You start to wonder

01:42:52.080 too much control if there's

01:42:53.600 bigger powers that, and then 0.72

01:42:55.360 you're like, and you can feel

01:42:56.560 that sometimes it feels like,

01:42:57.900 but I don't know.

01:42:58.460 Sometimes you can't.

01:42:59.080 Well, it's back to this point

01:43:00.080 about the different media

01:43:00.920 environment now, right?

01:43:02.220 Which is this freewheeling,

01:43:03.980 be authentic, like just go

01:43:05.340 with the flow kind of

01:43:06.980 environment now.

01:43:07.920 I think people, people like

01:43:09.260 watch the politicians in those

01:43:10.840 environments so they can make

01:43:12.000 a judgment about what kind of

01:43:12.980 person they are.

01:43:13.760 It's not scripted.

01:43:14.740 Right.

01:43:14.940 They get a feel for them.

01:43:15.760 They get a feel for them.

01:43:16.460 Exactly.

01:43:16.740 And some of them ask, they're

01:43:17.460 like, can we, do we get

01:43:18.540 added or something like

01:43:19.760 Timothy Shallon, they came

01:43:20.720 on, they didn't ask for one

01:43:21.660 edit.

01:43:21.940 They didn't ask to look at

01:43:22.940 anything.

01:43:23.520 They didn't ask.

01:43:24.400 I was like, that's wild, you

01:43:26.180 know?

01:43:26.620 I mean, but they didn't, and

01:43:27.760 then we've had other people

01:43:28.620 come on and they're, you

01:43:29.740 know, they're aging or 0.99

01:43:31.100 whatever, we get all fucking 0.99

01:43:32.120 nitpicky or whatever, some 1.00

01:43:33.400 little fucking lizard. 1.00

01:43:35.380 And, uh. 1.00

01:43:35.700 Well, ask to edit stuff out?

01:43:36.980 Or just like say certain

01:43:38.060 things.

01:43:38.500 Now, look.

01:43:38.960 I didn't know that was an

01:43:39.720 option.

01:43:39.760 If something horrible

01:43:40.420 happens, somebody dies or

01:43:41.640 something, we'll edit it

01:43:42.480 out.

01:43:43.200 You know, it's like, we

01:43:44.020 don't want something

01:43:44.620 horrible or somebody

01:43:46.000 turning blue.

01:43:46.660 You know what I'm talking

01:43:47.080 about?

01:43:47.280 Somebody can't breathe or

01:43:48.580 whatever.

01:43:48.860 Like, yeah, we're not 0.97

01:43:49.540 going to fucking sit there 0.98

01:43:50.900 and ask questions to 1.00

01:43:52.140 somebody who doesn't have

01:43:53.120 anything short of that.

01:43:54.240 So if I, if I die, Oh, 0.99

01:43:55.880 to their brain, you might, 0.99

01:43:57.260 you might edit that out.

01:43:58.340 But anything else I do

01:43:59.380 like, but it's just crazy

01:44:00.940 that, you know, you can't

01:44:02.040 control it.

01:44:02.460 But actually this is what

01:44:03.300 happened.

01:44:03.600 I think this is a great

01:44:04.280 example, right?

01:44:05.580 Before he was selected,

01:44:06.900 like Waltz, he was like

01:44:08.380 famous for being, you

01:44:09.220 know, he did the weird

01:44:09.900 thing and he was quite,

01:44:11.080 you know, he just, he

01:44:11.800 was odd.

01:44:12.380 He was like, but no, no,

01:44:13.160 he described the

01:44:14.380 Republicans as weird.

01:44:15.440 That's what I mean.

01:44:15.940 Like he just had a

01:44:16.760 certain, like, but

01:44:18.000 actually what happened

01:44:18.960 was that then he was

01:44:20.140 like told to be super

01:44:21.340 careful and you get

01:44:22.560 these politicians.

01:44:23.160 They sometimes remind

01:44:24.120 me like they're like a

01:44:25.620 guy carrying an

01:44:26.700 incredibly precious vase

01:44:28.340 across a polished floor.

01:44:29.820 You know, they're so

01:44:30.360 terrified.

01:44:31.000 They're going to slip and

01:44:32.240 say the wrong thing.

01:44:32.960 Right.

01:44:33.100 And that kind of

01:44:33.900 everyone's like, be

01:44:34.520 disciplined.

01:44:35.060 Don't say anything

01:44:35.600 wrong.

01:44:35.840 We don't want to screw

01:44:36.380 up the news cycle.

01:44:37.180 Don't have a gaff.

01:44:38.000 Don't like, don't,

01:44:38.820 don't say something 1.00

01:44:39.460 stupid. 1.00

01:44:40.540 Exactly. 1.00

01:44:41.180 Just stand still.

01:44:43.280 Don't say anything.

01:44:43.720 And hope for the

01:44:44.160 best.

01:44:44.480 That's crazy.

01:44:44.800 But I do think that

01:44:45.580 was the old politics.

01:44:46.760 I think it was all

01:44:47.280 about message

01:44:47.800 discipline.

01:44:48.940 And I think that the

01:44:49.600 waltz before the pick

01:44:50.620 and the waltz after the

01:44:51.540 pick, if you watch

01:44:52.280 them.

01:44:52.600 They're totally

01:44:52.760 different.

01:44:53.260 They're totally

01:44:53.540 different people.

01:44:54.200 I know.

01:44:54.460 I still wish he would

01:44:55.220 come on and talk to

01:44:55.880 us.

01:44:56.260 Maybe he will now.

01:44:57.180 Maybe he will now.

01:44:57.780 That's a good point.

01:44:58.300 I'm going to reach out

01:45:05.060 these people are,

01:45:05.840 you know, it's like,

01:45:06.520 and not even that you

01:45:07.320 do after a conversation,

01:45:08.380 there's still a politician.

01:45:09.760 Right.

01:45:10.440 But at a certain point,

01:45:11.280 you just can get a feel

01:45:12.100 for him.

01:45:12.480 And also the people at

01:45:13.440 home can just get a feel,

01:45:14.420 you know, it's just,

01:45:14.900 you want a little bit

01:45:15.700 more feel these days.

01:45:16.820 You had Bernie on

01:45:17.420 recently.

01:45:18.060 Yeah, it was great.

01:45:19.100 Have you had him on

01:45:19.540 before?

01:45:19.940 We had so much fun.

01:45:20.820 No, I'd have him on

01:45:21.460 again though, dude.

01:45:22.160 We had a blast.

01:45:23.040 We just have so many

01:45:23.940 things that, you know,

01:45:25.520 we both care about,

01:45:26.560 it seems like.

01:45:28.040 Yes.

01:45:28.520 So, so men, so places 0.80

01:45:30.000 that men can get involved.

01:45:31.060 It's like a big

01:45:31.600 brother program.

01:45:35.060 Make sure it's going

01:45:36.820 to be a place where

01:45:37.420 you're going to be able

01:45:38.060 to commit, like,

01:45:39.300 because you're saying

01:45:40.080 to a child or something,

01:45:41.640 I'm going to be there

01:45:42.160 every other week

01:45:42.800 or every two years.

01:45:43.780 At least a year.

01:45:44.880 In fact, the evidence

01:45:45.680 is that if you do it

01:45:46.480 for less than a year,

01:45:47.380 it's actually harmful.

01:45:48.360 Right.

01:45:48.820 Better to not do it at all.

01:45:50.060 Right.

01:45:50.420 If you can't do it for a year.

01:45:51.400 So that's something

01:45:52.160 right there.

01:45:52.680 And even just men

01:45:53.440 getting together to,

01:45:54.380 like, take a walk together,

01:45:55.640 think together,

01:45:56.720 you know, spend time together.

01:45:58.120 It's like, how do we start

01:45:58.760 to build those new things?

01:46:00.100 Yeah.

01:46:00.900 And also some of that is,

01:46:02.200 like, the cycle has changed.

01:46:03.280 You know, a lot of our energy

01:46:04.800 came from wars and stuff,

01:46:07.740 you know, and there were

01:46:08.460 a lot more bowling leagues.

01:46:09.860 There's a book,

01:46:10.720 it's called Bowling Alone,

01:46:12.400 maybe.

01:46:12.740 Yeah.

01:46:12.880 Robert Putnam.

01:46:13.680 Yeah.

01:46:14.020 All about what he calls

01:46:15.080 social capital,

01:46:16.380 which is basically

01:46:17.080 just this connection

01:46:18.160 and community.

01:46:19.560 Yeah.

01:46:19.720 And how important

01:46:20.600 that is for people.

01:46:21.520 And he talks about

01:46:22.080 the decline of bowling leagues,

01:46:23.820 which are basically

01:46:24.380 just structures

01:46:25.280 through which to have

01:46:26.080 this solidarity, right?

01:46:27.120 Yeah.

01:46:27.260 It's just hiding

01:46:27.880 from your wife for an hour

01:46:29.140 and you and your buddies 0.98

01:46:30.620 calling each other fat, right? 0.93

01:46:32.040 Right. 0.84

01:46:32.180 But that's what men 0.96

01:46:33.100 need sometimes, right?

01:46:34.100 But you can't say

01:46:34.740 to your wife,

01:46:35.420 I'm going out

01:46:36.160 to just hang out

01:46:36.840 with the guys 0.94

01:46:37.320 and call each other fat.

01:46:38.300 You have to say,

01:46:39.140 I've got bowling tonight, right?

01:46:40.940 That has to be a thing, right?

01:46:42.540 Yes.

01:46:42.700 I've got darts tonight.

01:46:44.380 Yes.

01:46:44.480 I've got kind of whatever.

01:46:45.060 It's a thing, right?

01:46:45.860 It's not just,

01:46:46.560 I'm not,

01:46:47.500 we can't just say,

01:46:48.140 I'm just kidding.

01:46:48.600 Maybe a bit more now,

01:46:49.640 but like you needed

01:46:50.240 like a,

01:46:51.460 and I think it's

01:46:51.980 a deeper truth

01:46:52.980 that men do need 0.99

01:46:54.580 a reason sometimes

01:46:55.920 to kind of be together

01:46:57.620 and that's just okay.

01:46:59.520 Right.

01:46:59.780 Yeah, you don't want

01:47:00.660 to tell your wife, 0.99

01:47:01.200 yeah, I'm just going to hang, 1.00

01:47:01.920 you know,

01:47:02.160 it's like,

01:47:02.820 yeah, I'm going to do something.

01:47:04.460 That's a man thing too

01:47:05.440 is doing something.

01:47:06.500 Doing something.

01:47:06.780 Like we're creatures

01:47:07.380 that are supposed

01:47:07.840 to be in action, right?

01:47:08.920 It's like the more sedentary

01:47:09.980 I get,

01:47:10.980 you know,

01:47:11.760 like I just notice that.

01:47:12.980 It's like if I do

01:47:13.540 the next right thing

01:47:14.460 I'm supposed to do,

01:47:15.240 everything goes fine.

01:47:16.080 The second I stand around

01:47:16.800 and think,

01:47:17.280 it's like things get

01:47:17.920 a little weird.

01:47:18.700 Yeah, just a bit

01:47:19.640 of forward momentum,

01:47:20.460 right?

01:47:20.580 Do the next thing.

01:47:21.380 Yeah, just keep it moving, man.

01:47:22.920 And it does help.

01:47:24.260 It helps you.

01:47:25.320 But then, yeah,

01:47:26.540 but what was I thinking of?

01:47:27.920 Oh, I was,

01:47:28.940 I wrote down,

01:47:30.180 was I making a point there

01:47:31.200 or no?

01:47:32.540 I can't remember.

01:47:33.240 I wrote down this question

01:47:34.580 because I thought a lot

01:47:35.240 about this like men

01:47:35.980 and women stuff, right?

01:47:37.520 And I'm glad

01:47:38.680 that we talked a lot

01:47:39.280 about it like just

01:47:39.880 because, yeah,

01:47:40.360 women have had this 1.00

01:47:41.020 sort of evolution

01:47:42.140 in a way,

01:47:43.040 societally

01:47:44.020 and financially

01:47:45.980 and they had to do that.

01:47:47.880 It felt like to get

01:47:48.540 more respect

01:47:49.200 and maybe if there'd been

01:47:49.920 a different respect

01:47:50.640 in the beginning,

01:47:51.360 things could have been different

01:47:52.340 but we live in a capitalistic

01:47:53.800 society type of thing

01:47:55.040 and so I wrote down

01:47:56.700 what I wanted to say

01:47:57.420 because it was too hard

01:47:58.120 for me to remember

01:47:59.900 and say.

01:48:01.280 So it just said,

01:48:01.800 I was saying,

01:48:02.340 it seems like

01:48:03.260 through the feminist movements

01:48:05.060 and trying to make

01:48:05.860 more gender equality,

01:48:07.740 close the income gap,

01:48:09.400 et cetera,

01:48:10.100 that women were striving 0.52

01:48:11.260 to have what men had 0.92

01:48:12.680 such as more income,

01:48:14.240 such as more equitable treatment,

01:48:15.740 such as being able

01:48:17.040 to strive in the workforce,

01:48:19.180 having more access

01:48:20.020 to educational opportunities,

01:48:21.620 et cetera,

01:48:22.400 that women wanted more power 1.00

01:48:24.340 or what was conceived of

01:48:26.140 as power

01:48:26.880 and in a capitalistic society,

01:48:28.980 money is power

01:48:29.880 but is it really power though?

01:48:32.520 I think it is pretty lonely

01:48:34.660 and disconnected

01:48:35.460 when men achieve

01:48:36.280 the status of being powerful

01:48:37.580 either through a lot

01:48:38.800 of recognition or wealth

01:48:40.040 or just producing

01:48:41.300 a lot in general.

01:48:42.500 I'm not saying that men

01:48:43.440 could not have this type of power

01:48:44.880 and not be connected

01:48:45.680 to the world around them

01:48:46.720 and people around them

01:48:48.100 but I think for most men

01:48:49.820 it was basically lonely

01:48:50.900 and disconnected.

01:48:52.720 Is this what women really want 1.00

01:48:54.060 when it comes to equitable treatment,

01:48:56.120 et cetera,

01:48:56.700 or having the same opportunities

01:48:58.200 for financial success

01:48:59.300 and upward mobility?

01:49:00.640 Do women really want 1.00

01:49:02.280 what men have or had?

01:49:04.780 I wonder if women 1.00

01:49:05.500 are really the ones

01:49:06.360 that generally speaking

01:49:07.320 have it right

01:49:08.300 as far as being connected

01:49:09.480 to others,

01:49:10.620 being able to communicate

01:49:11.700 better generally,

01:49:12.560 and providing more of a home

01:49:14.260 in the sense of a settled space

01:49:15.720 around themselves

01:49:16.520 wherever they go

01:49:17.880 or wherever they are.

01:49:19.300 I think it's interesting

01:49:20.180 that in trying to balance

01:49:21.300 out male and female,

01:49:22.720 the female wants to move 1.00

01:49:23.920 towards the male.

01:49:25.120 I get it

01:49:25.660 but I just wonder

01:49:26.260 if maybe it made more sense

01:49:27.640 to have the male move 0.99

01:49:28.660 towards the female.

01:49:30.240 And I don't mean

01:49:30.740 that men should be women. 0.85

01:49:32.220 What I do mean though

01:49:34.220 is that these attributes

01:49:35.940 that women seem to possess 1.00

01:49:37.380 based primarily on their sex

01:49:39.480 and some gender roles

01:49:40.600 seem to be more fulfilling overall.

01:49:43.360 So wouldn't it make more sense

01:49:44.480 that the men would move

01:49:45.540 a little closer to them

01:49:46.640 or the women would tout 1.00

01:49:47.940 that what they have

01:49:49.460 is good enough

01:49:50.340 and it is best

01:49:52.260 instead of going ahead

01:49:53.960 and trying to get

01:49:54.780 what the men have.

01:49:58.000 Like I said,

01:49:58.920 I get it

01:49:59.420 and I can understand

01:49:59.920 why women want 1.00

01:50:00.780 what they perceive

01:50:01.760 men as having.

01:50:02.620 I just wonder

01:50:03.140 if that's really

01:50:03.860 the best direction

01:50:04.600 for women

01:50:05.260 and for children

01:50:06.100 and for men

01:50:06.640 and boys

01:50:07.660 and for people in general.

01:50:08.700 Do we really want

01:50:09.340 to show our children

01:50:09.940 that women can dominate 1.00

01:50:11.320 and produce

01:50:11.880 in the same ways

01:50:12.540 that men can?

01:50:13.620 Personally,

01:50:14.080 I don't really think so.

01:50:15.700 I think men have it wrong. 0.98

01:50:17.520 I think that the men

01:50:18.520 should be masculine 0.99

01:50:19.540 and women should be feminine 1.00

01:50:20.860 but I think that

01:50:21.480 the expression of masculinity

01:50:22.580 generally speaking

01:50:23.520 in our society

01:50:24.700 has been kind of weak

01:50:25.680 and kind of disconnected

01:50:27.380 and honestly 0.99

01:50:27.820 sometimes kind of dumb. 0.97

01:50:30.180 Sorry that was so much words 0.98

01:50:31.460 but I just did

01:50:32.940 I was trying to like

01:50:33.660 I was like

01:50:33.960 I can't remember this

01:50:34.920 but this is like

01:50:35.700 what I think

01:50:36.320 it's not a clown 0.90

01:50:38.640 on women

01:50:39.100 or their journey

01:50:40.060 or anything

01:50:40.420 it's just like

01:50:41.240 what are we all

01:50:42.460 really looking for?

01:50:44.000 Yeah.

01:50:44.680 I think

01:50:45.220 we're at a really

01:50:46.980 important moment

01:50:48.220 for that

01:50:48.880 I think.

01:50:49.760 I see the movement

01:50:52.100 of the last

01:50:52.720 let's say 50 years

01:50:54.180 as largely being about

01:50:55.980 women trying to get 1.00

01:50:56.800 more economic independence.

01:50:58.740 I don't really like

01:51:00.400 the language of power

01:51:01.480 around this

01:51:02.420 because it tends

01:51:03.180 to presume

01:51:03.780 that it's like

01:51:04.300 power of person A

01:51:05.380 over power of person B

01:51:06.480 it's much more like

01:51:07.620 opportunity

01:51:08.140 independence

01:51:09.000 chance to flourish

01:51:10.240 to be you

01:51:11.600 to rise.

01:51:11.840 Yeah to let yourself

01:51:12.560 be seen

01:51:13.200 to let your

01:51:13.840 yes

01:51:14.480 and to feel equal

01:51:16.120 to feel like

01:51:16.540 oh I can do

01:51:17.520 these things as well.

01:51:18.460 To get equal respect

01:51:19.300 right

01:51:19.640 and I feel like

01:51:21.120 we've been

01:51:21.400 so I think

01:51:22.120 this sense of

01:51:22.740 like if you think

01:51:23.420 about the more

01:51:24.240 female virtues

01:51:25.720 to use your framing

01:51:27.080 as being more

01:51:27.580 about like care

01:51:28.340 and connection

01:51:28.980 and so on

01:51:29.700 and the more male ones

01:51:30.780 being around

01:51:31.140 kind of material

01:51:31.840 money etc

01:51:33.160 I do think

01:51:34.920 that it was

01:51:35.320 quite right

01:51:35.940 for women

01:51:36.400 to have more

01:51:36.900 opportunities

01:51:37.420 to acquire

01:51:38.100 more of that

01:51:39.040 economic opportunity

01:51:40.700 right

01:51:41.340 and economic

01:51:41.940 independence

01:51:42.380 quite right

01:51:42.900 now I think

01:51:44.980 that we might

01:51:45.600 see the next

01:51:46.080 50 years

01:51:46.780 are about

01:51:47.220 some of the

01:51:47.620 movement

01:51:47.800 in the other

01:51:48.180 direction

01:51:48.560 which is

01:51:49.020 that men

01:51:49.340 also learning

01:51:50.160 that like

01:51:50.600 it's not

01:51:51.040 actually just

01:51:51.940 getting to the

01:51:52.400 top of the

01:51:52.700 economic ladder

01:51:53.360 it's like

01:51:53.940 that's not

01:51:54.380 what life

01:51:54.960 is about

01:51:55.740 it's important

01:51:57.100 to provide

01:51:58.020 it's important

01:51:58.880 to bring

01:52:00.240 material resources

01:52:01.160 to your family

01:52:01.900 to your tribe

01:52:02.740 to your community

01:52:03.460 but it's also

01:52:04.320 important to have

01:52:05.140 those relationships

01:52:05.860 and that care

01:52:06.580 and if that's seen

01:52:07.420 as more of a

01:52:07.880 female virtue

01:52:08.540 then I agree

01:52:09.620 that we might

01:52:10.440 see a little bit

01:52:10.980 more movement

01:52:11.420 now of men

01:52:12.840 towards women 0.70

01:52:14.240 but in the end

01:52:15.760 it's just about

01:52:16.400 creating opportunities

01:52:17.080 for all of us

01:52:18.060 to be able to

01:52:18.960 flourish and to

01:52:19.700 rise and to

01:52:20.280 do that together

01:52:21.040 and to have

01:52:21.900 equal respect

01:52:22.560 for what we

01:52:24.020 each choose to do

01:52:25.140 without one set

01:52:27.780 being dependent

01:52:28.880 on the other

01:52:29.560 without one group

01:52:31.200 having power

01:52:32.160 over the other

01:52:32.880 without one group

01:52:34.480 being seen

01:52:35.240 to be better

01:52:36.220 than the other

01:52:37.320 or one set

01:52:38.220 of virtues

01:52:38.860 being better

01:52:40.060 than the other

01:52:40.660 and instead

01:52:41.700 to just say

01:52:42.540 look we're all

01:52:43.380 in the end

01:52:44.080 I hope that my work

01:52:45.540 focusing on boys

01:52:46.240 and men

01:52:46.680 is partly

01:52:47.700 in the end

01:52:48.100 humanism

01:52:48.680 it's partly

01:52:49.260 about the end

01:52:49.800 like we want

01:52:50.160 to get to a world

01:52:50.980 where we're all

01:52:51.540 able to kind of

01:52:52.220 flourish together

01:52:52.940 and we're not

01:52:54.460 going to get there

01:52:55.120 if we pretend

01:52:56.360 there are no

01:52:56.780 differences between

01:52:57.440 men and women

01:52:57.980 we're not going

01:52:59.340 to get to equality

01:53:00.100 through androgyny

01:53:01.200 pretending there are

01:53:02.080 no differences

01:53:02.580 between men and women 0.90

01:53:03.300 but we can learn

01:53:04.720 from each other

01:53:05.340 and isn't that amazing

01:53:06.620 isn't that an amazing

01:53:07.520 opportunity

01:53:08.000 and so I think

01:53:08.660 the opportunities

01:53:09.320 for men now

01:53:10.180 to kind of grow

01:53:11.780 and expand our roles

01:53:13.140 as fathers

01:53:13.780 as coaches

01:53:14.880 as mentors

01:53:16.100 as community leaders

01:53:17.220 in the home

01:53:18.220 in the community

01:53:19.120 whilst also

01:53:20.320 I think building

01:53:21.380 staff and providing

01:53:22.820 in other words

01:53:23.800 reforming masculinity

01:53:25.220 rather than

01:53:26.460 ditching it

01:53:27.460 and saying

01:53:28.300 we don't need

01:53:28.840 masculinity anymore

01:53:29.760 or somehow

01:53:30.440 trying to get

01:53:30.840 the old kind

01:53:31.500 of masculinity

01:53:32.020 back

01:53:32.580 so I think

01:53:33.920 when I'm feeling

01:53:35.240 optimistic

01:53:35.680 and it's good

01:53:36.640 to be optimistic

01:53:37.160 sometimes

01:53:37.720 I actually think

01:53:38.740 what we're experiencing

01:53:39.940 now

01:53:40.560 is like the birth

01:53:41.960 pangs of like

01:53:42.540 a different way

01:53:43.320 yeah

01:53:43.600 right

01:53:43.960 and I think

01:53:44.560 it's all been

01:53:45.100 about women

01:53:45.560 up until now

01:53:46.240 and I think

01:53:46.500 that's understandable

01:53:47.240 but I think

01:53:48.080 the next few

01:53:49.000 decades

01:53:49.520 have got to be

01:53:50.100 about how do

01:53:50.600 we help men

01:53:51.180 as well

01:53:51.620 how do we

01:53:52.180 help men

01:53:52.620 rise

01:53:53.180 not instead

01:53:53.900 of women

01:53:54.320 but with women 0.97

01:53:55.580 and women

01:53:56.420 rise with men

01:53:57.100 yeah

01:53:57.900 and how do we

01:53:58.280 even

01:53:58.520 yeah

01:53:58.760 how do we

01:53:59.060 just

01:53:59.320 yeah

01:53:59.740 and evolution

01:54:00.560 takes

01:54:01.080 pain

01:54:02.820 you know

01:54:03.380 it takes

01:54:03.700 discomfort

01:54:04.220 for everyone

01:54:05.280 change is hard

01:54:05.940 yes

01:54:06.260 change is hard

01:54:06.960 and also

01:54:07.700 I think

01:54:08.020 though

01:54:08.160 you look

01:54:08.680 at like

01:54:09.040 people having

01:54:09.720 the time

01:54:10.080 to do things

01:54:10.680 in the evenings

01:54:11.180 and stuff

01:54:11.620 it's like

01:54:13.540 we create

01:54:14.000 you know

01:54:14.280 like a lot

01:54:14.700 of people

01:54:14.900 live in

01:54:15.160 separate

01:54:15.460 households

01:54:15.740 I talk

01:54:16.200 about it

01:54:16.420 with the

01:54:16.620 holidays

01:54:16.960 the holidays

01:54:17.400 are a bummer

01:54:17.940 a lot

01:54:18.140 of times

01:54:18.360 now

01:54:18.500 because you

01:54:18.720 got to go

01:54:18.960 visit

01:54:19.180 both your

01:54:20.220 parents

01:54:20.560 have been

01:54:20.860 married

01:54:21.080 two times

01:54:21.560 and divorced

01:54:21.920 now you're

01:54:22.220 visiting six

01:54:22.900 people

01:54:23.240 or something

01:54:23.640 you're dividing

01:54:24.920 your Christmas

01:54:25.400 up

01:54:25.580 it's like

01:54:27.020 we're dividing

01:54:28.320 up the

01:54:29.060 comfort we

01:54:32.540 had

01:54:32.840 you know

01:54:33.500 and it's

01:54:33.860 becoming a

01:54:34.380 nightmare

01:54:34.640 because you're

01:54:35.060 having to drive

01:54:35.560 so many places

01:54:36.300 to see so many

01:54:36.980 people

01:54:37.300 but I

01:54:38.880 think the

01:54:40.620 spirit of what

01:54:41.200 you're saying

01:54:41.860 throughout this

01:54:43.000 whole conversation

01:54:43.620 has been about

01:54:44.600 equal empathy

01:54:45.900 and respect

01:54:46.540 for men

01:54:47.320 and women

01:54:47.820 and I feel

01:54:48.420 like there was

01:54:48.720 probably a

01:54:49.120 time when

01:54:49.500 like if

01:54:50.200 women complained 0.61

01:54:50.860 about stuff

01:54:51.520 and wanted

01:54:51.840 more power

01:54:52.240 men would 0.98

01:54:52.580 be like

01:54:52.860 patronizing

01:54:53.520 or maybe

01:54:53.820 roll their

01:54:54.280 eyes at

01:54:54.640 them a little

01:54:55.020 bit

01:54:55.200 off she 0.62

01:54:56.780 goes again

01:54:57.320 but I

01:54:58.160 now think

01:54:58.500 the opposite

01:54:58.880 is happening

01:54:59.360 I think

01:54:59.740 when we

01:55:00.040 talk about

01:55:00.480 some of the

01:55:00.760 problems

01:55:00.980 that men

01:55:01.260 are having

01:55:01.580 and men

01:55:01.900 saying

01:55:02.180 I'm struggling

01:55:02.740 I'm trying

01:55:03.060 to figure

01:55:03.300 this out

01:55:03.760 there's

01:55:04.260 sometimes

01:55:04.600 a tendency

01:55:05.020 for people

01:55:05.300 to roll

01:55:05.640 their eyes

01:55:06.100 and just

01:55:06.400 say

01:55:06.540 well get

01:55:06.940 over it

01:55:07.460 and neither

01:55:08.460 of those

01:55:08.860 responses

01:55:09.260 is good

01:55:09.700 enough

01:55:09.940 we need

01:55:10.200 to kind

01:55:10.440 of look

01:55:10.740 each other

01:55:11.060 in the

01:55:11.300 eye

01:55:11.440 and just

01:55:11.700 say

01:55:11.900 look

01:55:12.140 I'm here

01:55:12.540 for you

01:55:12.820 let's

01:55:13.040 figure

01:55:13.260 this out

01:55:13.660 together

01:55:14.040 and not

01:55:14.860 pit us

01:55:15.300 against

01:55:15.660 each other

01:55:16.040 the thing

01:55:16.340 I really

01:55:16.900 worry about

01:55:17.440 is particularly

01:55:18.440 politically

01:55:18.780 right now

01:55:19.280 that we're

01:55:19.560 somehow

01:55:19.800 going to

01:55:20.080 end up

01:55:20.380 young men

01:55:20.880 and young

01:55:21.220 women 1.00

01:55:21.520 seeing each

01:55:22.360 other

01:55:22.500 as somehow

01:55:22.880 not on

01:55:23.280 the same

01:55:23.620 team

01:55:23.980 as against

01:55:25.260 each other

01:55:25.580 you see

01:55:25.800 this growing

01:55:26.120 political

01:55:26.500 divide

01:55:26.980 cultural

01:55:27.400 divide

01:55:27.800 less

01:55:28.040 dating

01:55:28.480 I think

01:55:29.360 it will

01:55:29.580 be

01:55:29.820 really

01:55:30.420 bad

01:55:30.740 news

01:55:31.180 if we

01:55:31.800 don't

01:55:32.160 see

01:55:32.440 young

01:55:32.680 men

01:55:32.840 and

01:55:33.000 women 1.00

01:55:33.220 seeing

01:55:33.940 that

01:55:34.060 their

01:55:34.200 interests

01:55:34.620 as being

01:55:34.980 more

01:55:35.260 aligned

01:55:35.780 than

01:55:41.440 you need

01:55:41.960 for

01:55:42.200 diplomacy

01:55:43.180 and stuff

01:55:43.620 but

01:55:43.780 I don't

01:55:44.280 even

01:55:44.400 I feel

01:55:44.740 like

01:55:44.840 it's

01:55:44.980 been

01:55:45.100 so

01:55:45.320 commandeered

01:55:45.820 I don't

01:55:46.320 think

01:55:46.500 most people

01:55:46.820 even know

01:55:47.100 what it

01:55:47.440 is anymore

01:55:47.960 or don't

01:55:48.460 believe

01:55:48.840 in the

01:55:49.320 sanctity

01:55:50.040 of it

01:55:50.460 but I

01:55:52.020 do

01:55:52.300 think

01:55:52.660 that

01:55:53.000 in the

01:55:53.380 end

01:55:53.800 you

01:55:54.940 that

01:55:56.160 other

01:55:56.600 humans

01:55:57.140 are your

01:55:57.620 real

01:55:57.900 government

01:55:58.420 you know

01:56:00.420 your neighbor

01:56:01.020 is your

01:56:01.380 government

01:56:01.740 it's norms

01:56:02.400 it's the

01:56:02.880 atmosphere

01:56:03.140 it's the

01:56:03.620 tradition

01:56:04.500 whatever

01:56:04.960 you're

01:56:05.580 you know

01:56:05.980 and I

01:56:07.020 think it

01:56:07.320 is

01:56:07.500 men need 1.00

01:56:07.920 to

01:56:08.040 just

01:56:08.400 wake

01:56:08.800 up

01:56:09.140 shave

01:56:10.080 put on

01:56:10.640 a clean

01:56:10.940 shirt

01:56:11.320 and be

01:56:12.400 ready

01:56:12.760 for

01:56:13.080 you know

01:56:13.500 whatever

01:56:13.960 blessings

01:56:14.440 do come

01:56:14.920 or the

01:56:15.200 things

01:56:15.400 that they

01:56:15.620 create

01:56:15.920 for

01:56:16.100 themselves

01:56:16.480 too

01:56:16.700 I

01:56:16.820 think

01:56:16.940 some

01:56:17.120 of it

01:56:17.300 is

01:56:17.420 like

01:56:17.640 just

01:56:18.180 showing

01:56:18.560 up

01:56:18.800 for the

01:56:19.060 day

01:56:19.280 in the

01:56:19.520 world

01:56:19.860 but also

01:56:21.660 we need

01:56:22.060 to

01:56:22.240 if we

01:56:22.740 could

01:56:22.900 it would

01:56:23.260 be nice

01:56:23.660 we need

01:56:24.180 to

01:56:24.360 what the 1.00

01:56:24.580 fuck 0.99

01:56:24.720 do I 1.00

01:56:24.920 know

01:56:25.040 but it

01:56:25.420 would be

01:56:25.520 nice

01:56:25.760 if families

01:56:26.240 were together

01:56:26.720 and that

01:56:27.080 that everybody

01:56:28.300 didn't have

01:56:28.680 all these

01:56:28.940 separate

01:56:29.240 homes

01:56:29.560 to go

01:56:29.800 it was

01:56:30.100 just

01:56:30.280 everything

01:56:30.580 didn't

01:56:30.800 feel

01:56:31.000 so

01:56:31.180 divided

01:56:31.660 I

01:56:32.140 feel

01:56:32.340 like

01:56:32.500 even

01:56:33.000 managing

01:56:33.480 a life

01:56:33.980 feels

01:56:34.260 very

01:56:34.480 dividing

01:56:34.960 for a

01:56:35.320 kid

01:56:35.480 when one

01:56:35.860 week

01:56:36.060 they're

01:56:36.200 here

01:56:36.420 one

01:56:36.640 week

01:56:36.820 we're

01:56:36.960 there

01:56:37.080 and then

01:56:37.700 the parents

01:56:38.160 are separate

01:56:38.700 and they

01:56:38.940 probably

01:56:39.180 sit there

01:56:39.660 you know

01:56:40.340 yeah maybe

01:56:40.920 they go

01:56:41.260 but they

01:56:41.980 wish

01:56:42.280 maybe

01:56:42.500 they'd

01:56:42.720 been able

01:56:42.980 to figure

01:56:43.280 I don't

01:56:43.780 know

01:56:44.020 I romanticize

01:56:46.200 a lot

01:56:46.440 the key

01:56:47.900 thing is

01:56:48.280 the

01:56:48.400 relationships

01:56:49.060 right

01:56:49.900 I found

01:56:50.780 this very

01:56:51.080 interesting

01:56:51.320 study

01:56:51.620 that said

01:56:51.980 that kids

01:56:52.480 whose father

01:56:53.180 is not

01:56:53.700 resident

01:56:54.060 with the

01:56:54.360 mother

01:56:54.520 doesn't live

01:56:54.940 with the

01:56:55.120 mom

01:56:55.260 anymore

01:56:55.600 but has

01:56:56.080 a good

01:56:56.340 relationship

01:56:56.820 with them

01:56:57.240 they do

01:56:57.760 better

01:56:58.100 than the

01:56:58.820 kids

01:56:59.080 whose dad

01:56:59.520 is with

01:56:59.840 them

01:57:00.020 but they

01:57:00.260 have a

01:57:00.480 terrible

01:57:00.680 relationship

01:57:01.120 with

01:57:01.400 and so

01:57:02.040 it's

01:57:02.300 in the

01:57:03.600 end

01:57:03.840 it's

01:57:04.040 the

01:57:04.180 relationship

01:57:04.780 that matters

01:57:05.280 your point

01:57:06.140 about

01:57:06.540 care

01:57:07.600 and

01:57:07.840 nurturing

01:57:08.240 sometimes

01:57:08.960 I think

01:57:09.240 we obsess

01:57:09.680 about

01:57:10.060 the

01:57:10.260 structure

01:57:10.740 and we

01:57:11.660 don't

01:57:11.820 actually

01:57:12.060 think

01:57:12.280 what really

01:57:13.100 matters

01:57:13.440 here

01:57:13.720 is the

01:57:16.440 one reason

01:57:16.920 I feel

01:57:17.200 so strongly

01:57:17.700 about that

01:57:18.060 is because

01:57:18.360 so many

01:57:18.940 kids

01:57:19.240 now

01:57:19.520 most kids

01:57:20.760 to parents

01:57:21.880 without college

01:57:22.540 degrees

01:57:23.040 are born

01:57:23.900 outside marriage

01:57:24.700 most

01:57:25.260 that's the

01:57:26.240 norm

01:57:26.740 outside of

01:57:27.600 the college

01:57:27.900 educated class

01:57:28.660 and so

01:57:29.500 I don't want

01:57:30.200 to say to

01:57:30.560 those fathers

01:57:31.240 oh well

01:57:32.220 sorry

01:57:32.420 you've already

01:57:32.800 failed

01:57:33.140 you don't

01:57:34.160 bench the

01:57:36.040 dads

01:57:36.480 and so

01:57:37.620 it's incredibly

01:57:39.140 important that

01:57:39.720 fathers hear

01:57:40.520 the message

01:57:41.100 that they

01:57:42.200 matter

01:57:42.580 in their

01:57:43.580 kids lives

01:57:44.260 whether or

01:57:45.620 not they

01:57:46.140 are with

01:57:46.480 the

01:57:46.680 kids

01:57:46.880 mother

01:57:47.280 and in

01:57:47.820 some ways

01:57:48.440 if they're

01:57:48.720 not with

01:57:49.080 the kids

01:57:49.380 mother

01:57:49.640 romantically

01:57:50.140 anymore

01:57:50.720 the father

01:57:51.680 might be

01:57:51.940 even more

01:57:52.440 important

01:57:52.820 because there's

01:57:53.640 a good chance

01:57:54.160 that kids

01:57:54.500 are going to be

01:57:54.800 struggling in

01:57:55.260 other ways

01:57:55.640 and so

01:57:55.920 there is no

01:57:57.060 hall pass

01:57:57.720 for fatherhood

01:57:58.660 if you become

01:57:59.500 a father

01:57:59.880 it doesn't matter

01:58:00.620 how you ended

01:58:01.240 up having

01:58:01.500 that kid

01:58:01.940 you have a

01:58:02.640 moral

01:58:02.980 responsibility

01:58:03.760 to be there

01:58:05.200 for that kid

01:58:05.800 period

01:58:06.280 that is not

01:58:07.000 unnegotiable

01:58:07.660 now you may

01:58:08.380 or may not

01:58:08.760 be married

01:58:09.140 to the mom

01:58:09.580 and I'm not

01:58:09.940 saying it

01:58:10.240 isn't easier

01:58:10.820 to be married

01:58:12.120 to the mom

01:58:12.460 but

01:58:12.720 right but that

01:58:13.280 doesn't really

01:58:13.680 make it

01:58:14.720 different

01:58:14.980 always

01:58:15.340 and also

01:58:15.920 don't point

01:58:17.800 at these

01:58:18.040 dads who

01:58:18.580 for whatever

01:58:19.180 reason

01:58:19.480 are not

01:58:19.720 married to

01:58:20.100 the mom

01:58:20.320 and blame

01:58:20.840 them

01:58:21.240 somehow

01:58:21.840 yeah

01:58:22.360 I think

01:58:23.060 I just

01:58:23.760 have this

01:58:24.020 romantic

01:58:24.460 view

01:58:24.840 but yeah

01:58:25.460 I think

01:58:25.780 being a

01:58:27.680 father

01:58:27.900 is just

01:58:28.220 being a

01:58:28.540 father

01:58:28.880 and what

01:58:30.580 do I

01:58:30.840 know

01:58:31.020 what the 0.99

01:58:31.220 fuck 1.00

01:58:31.360 am I 1.00

01:58:31.540 even

01:58:31.640 talking

01:58:31.760 and it

01:58:31.960 never

01:58:32.180 ends

01:58:32.540 I mean

01:58:32.820 I'll

01:58:32.940 say

01:58:33.160 that

01:58:33.340 it doesn't

01:58:35.760 end

01:58:36.020 with being

01:58:36.900 a

01:58:37.040 father

01:58:37.280 like

01:58:37.680 one

01:58:37.880 of

01:58:37.980 the

01:58:38.080 I

01:58:38.260 mentioned

01:58:38.680 my

01:58:39.240 own

01:58:39.800 father

01:58:40.180 my

01:58:40.480 dad

01:58:40.720 earlier

01:58:41.100 watching

01:58:44.680 him

01:58:45.040 as a

01:58:45.400 grandfather

01:58:46.040 to my

01:58:47.420 sons

01:58:47.840 has also

01:58:48.740 been an

01:58:49.160 extraordinary

01:58:49.460 experience

01:58:50.420 and made

01:58:50.800 me think

01:58:51.220 about

01:58:51.560 I'm already

01:58:52.760 thinking about

01:58:53.120 what kind

01:58:53.380 of grandfather

01:58:53.880 I'm going

01:58:54.260 to be

01:58:54.520 my sons

01:58:55.640 are all

01:58:55.840 in their

01:58:56.020 20s

01:58:56.360 now

01:58:56.580 from late

01:58:57.900 20s

01:58:58.260 to early

01:58:58.540 20s

01:58:59.020 and so

01:58:59.720 that's

01:58:59.960 the next

01:59:00.280 stage

01:59:00.700 for me

01:59:01.300 and I'll

01:59:02.360 tell you

01:59:02.920 like

01:59:03.180 my

01:59:03.560 one of

01:59:04.220 my sons

01:59:04.620 really

01:59:04.960 struggled

01:59:05.380 in high

01:59:06.280 school

01:59:06.480 he's the

01:59:06.820 one who's

01:59:07.080 now

01:59:07.220 become

01:59:07.440 a

01:59:07.580 teacher

01:59:07.840 and

01:59:09.420 when he

01:59:09.880 went to

01:59:10.620 college

01:59:11.060 he chose

01:59:11.660 to go

01:59:11.900 to college

01:59:12.300 back to

01:59:12.740 the UK

01:59:13.160 but not

01:59:13.840 just back

01:59:14.160 to the UK

01:59:14.540 he went

01:59:15.140 back to

01:59:15.480 Cardiff

01:59:15.920 in Wales

01:59:16.840 where my

01:59:17.180 parents

01:59:17.600 live

01:59:18.020 because he

01:59:18.820 wanted to

01:59:19.160 be near

01:59:19.500 my parents

01:59:20.100 and he

01:59:20.420 told me

01:59:20.940 once

01:59:21.320 that

01:59:22.020 on a

01:59:22.560 day

01:59:22.700 when he

01:59:22.900 was really

01:59:23.280 struggling

01:59:23.620 he'd get

01:59:25.760 out

01:59:26.040 and there

01:59:26.340 some

01:59:26.720 mental

01:59:27.060 health

01:59:27.340 issues

01:59:27.740 whatever

01:59:28.240 he was

01:59:29.220 really

01:59:29.420 struggling

01:59:29.860 he would

01:59:30.500 look

01:59:30.920 he could

01:59:31.520 look

01:59:31.760 when he

01:59:31.980 was

01:59:32.080 walking

01:59:32.340 to his

01:59:32.640 lectures

01:59:33.020 at

01:59:33.280 college

01:59:33.660 he

01:59:34.160 could

01:59:34.320 look

01:59:34.600 to

01:59:34.760 the

01:59:34.920 north

01:59:35.280 and a

01:59:35.860 couple

01:59:36.020 of miles

01:59:36.320 north

01:59:36.640 there's

01:59:36.900 this

01:59:37.020 big

01:59:37.200 tower

01:59:37.640 of a

01:59:37.960 hospital

01:59:38.260 right next

01:59:38.860 to where

01:59:39.280 my

01:59:39.500 parents

01:59:40.200 live

01:59:40.500 and he

01:59:41.040 said

01:59:41.200 to me

01:59:41.500 even

01:59:42.340 on a

01:59:42.560 really

01:59:42.740 bad

01:59:43.040 day

01:59:43.360 I

01:59:44.560 know

01:59:44.680 that

01:59:44.800 I

01:59:44.900 can

01:59:45.040 look

01:59:45.220 up

01:59:45.380 there

01:59:45.660 and I

01:59:46.620 know

01:59:46.720 that

01:59:46.860 grandpa

01:59:47.120 is

01:59:47.380 there

01:59:47.640 and if

01:59:48.480 I

01:59:48.600 need

01:59:48.820 him

01:59:49.040 he'll

01:59:49.800 come

01:59:50.020 I

01:59:51.700 want

01:59:52.400 my

01:59:52.640 grandsons

01:59:53.560 and

01:59:53.760 granddaughters

01:59:54.160 saying that

01:59:54.540 about me

01:59:55.000 one day

01:59:55.440 too

01:59:55.680 and so

01:59:57.020 the point

01:59:57.720 is

01:59:57.940 as parents

01:59:59.520 you do

02:00:00.420 the best

02:00:00.700 you can

02:00:01.040 and then

02:00:01.280 as

02:00:01.400 grandparents

02:00:01.720 you help

02:00:02.220 out

02:00:02.440 and then

02:00:02.760 as

02:00:02.900 uncles

02:00:03.280 and

02:00:03.480 nephews

02:00:03.780 or

02:00:03.980 neighbors

02:00:04.380 or

02:00:04.660 mentors

02:00:04.940 you

02:00:05.140 kind

02:00:05.320 of

02:00:05.380 help

02:00:05.580 out

02:00:05.860 but

02:00:06.560 it

02:00:06.740 never

02:00:08.300 ends

02:00:08.820 and

02:00:09.880 that's

02:00:10.340 not a

02:00:10.580 bad

02:00:10.760 thing

02:00:11.020 it's

02:00:11.240 a

02:00:11.360 good

02:00:11.480 thing

02:00:11.700 it's

02:00:11.880 a

02:00:12.300 beautiful

02:00:12.680 thing

02:00:13.100 and

02:00:13.440 I

02:00:14.060 as

02:00:15.120 a

02:00:15.300 father

02:00:16.440 to see

02:00:17.120 my

02:00:17.700 father

02:00:18.320 being

02:00:19.240 such

02:00:19.520 an

02:00:19.680 amazing

02:00:20.260 support

02:00:20.800 for

02:00:21.060 my

02:00:21.420 son

02:00:22.040 I'm

02:00:24.420 in the

02:00:24.580 middle

02:00:24.780 and guess

02:00:25.440 what

02:00:25.720 sometimes

02:00:26.560 maybe

02:00:27.460 granddad

02:00:28.080 is

02:00:28.880 going to

02:00:29.120 be

02:00:29.220 the

02:00:29.340 better

02:00:29.520 person

02:00:29.980 for

02:00:30.640 your

02:00:30.820 son

02:00:31.080 in

02:00:31.300 this

02:00:31.440 moment

02:00:31.720 than

02:00:31.920 you

02:00:32.100 are

02:00:32.300 and

02:00:32.880 what

02:00:33.180 amazing

02:00:34.220 blessing

02:00:34.660 that

02:00:35.000 is

02:00:35.300 to

02:00:35.540 have

02:00:35.740 that

02:00:35.940 I

02:00:36.120 feel

02:00:36.320 so

02:00:36.740 incredibly

02:00:37.380 fortunate

02:00:38.420 that

02:00:38.700 my

02:00:39.180 kids

02:00:39.780 have

02:00:39.940 had

02:00:40.080 that

02:00:40.220 opportunity

02:00:40.620 to have

02:00:40.940 that

02:00:41.080 relation

02:00:41.360 to

02:00:41.480 their

02:00:41.580 grandparents

02:00:41.900 so

02:00:42.280 I've

02:00:42.860 gone

02:00:43.060 from

02:00:43.280 thinking

02:00:43.520 oh

02:00:43.760 god

02:00:44.020 really

02:00:44.320 grandfather

02:00:44.880 I have

02:00:45.540 to do it

02:00:45.880 all over

02:00:46.300 again

02:00:46.720 really

02:00:47.200 to being

02:00:47.680 like

02:00:47.940 you know

02:00:48.840 what

02:00:49.100 yeah

02:00:49.720 this

02:00:50.060 could

02:00:50.260 be

02:00:50.420 good

02:00:50.680 yeah

02:00:51.460 I just

02:00:51.660 appreciate

02:00:51.940 you

02:00:52.100 thinking

02:00:52.300 about

02:00:52.560 stuff

02:00:52.820 this

02:00:53.060 stuff

02:00:53.240 with

02:00:53.340 Richard

02:00:54.100 and

02:00:54.320 I know

02:00:54.740 there's

02:00:54.880 a lot

02:00:55.060 of

02:00:55.140 other

02:00:55.240 things

02:00:55.360 we could

02:00:55.560 talk

02:00:55.740 about

02:00:55.960 recovery

02:00:57.500 programs

02:00:57.920 and

02:00:58.060 12

02:00:58.280 step

02:00:58.520 we

02:00:58.860 could

02:00:58.960 save

02:00:59.100 that

02:00:59.220 for

02:00:59.320 another

02:00:59.460 conversation

02:01:00.040 anytime

02:01:00.660 I feel

02:01:01.100 like

02:01:01.200 this

02:01:01.900 has

02:01:02.320 been

02:01:02.460 a

02:01:02.600 nice

02:01:02.800 conversation

02:01:03.400 and

02:01:03.660 just

02:01:04.440 some

02:01:04.600 good

02:01:04.780 food

02:01:04.980 for

02:01:05.120 thought

02:01:05.380 and

02:01:05.580 not

02:01:06.160 to

02:01:06.360 harp

02:01:06.660 on

02:01:06.880 man

02:01:07.120 or

02:01:07.260 what's

02:01:07.500 going

02:01:07.720 on

02:01:08.020 and

02:01:08.160 if

02:01:08.520 you

02:01:08.680 feel

02:01:08.900 uncomfortable

02:01:09.420 it's

02:01:09.760 like

02:01:09.940 I

02:01:10.440 think

02:01:10.680 there

02:01:10.860 is

02:01:11.040 that

02:01:11.240 there's

02:01:11.680 a

02:01:11.840 sense

02:01:12.160 inside

02:01:12.440 of

02:01:12.560 a

02:01:12.660 lot

02:01:12.800 of

02:01:12.920 us

02:01:13.100 of

02:01:13.280 what

02:01:14.160 do

02:01:14.300 we

02:01:14.440 do

02:01:14.780 where

02:01:15.280 is

02:01:15.720 my

02:01:15.900 purpose

02:01:16.320 and

02:01:16.680 where

02:01:18.220 is

02:01:18.340 that

02:01:18.480 coming

02:01:18.760 from

02:01:19.080 and

02:01:19.800 that's

02:01:20.900 okay

02:01:21.220 yeah

02:01:21.500 thank you

02:01:22.520 I've

02:01:22.760 really

02:01:22.960 enjoyed

02:01:23.600 this

02:01:23.860 me

02:01:24.060 too

02:01:24.220 Richard

02:01:24.420 I

02:01:24.560 appreciate

02:01:24.820 it

02:01:25.060 Richard

02:01:25.480 Reeves

02:01:25.860 you have

02:01:26.120 books

02:01:26.420 out

02:01:26.620 don't

02:01:26.840 you

02:01:27.020 yeah

02:01:27.280 of

02:01:27.540 boys

02:01:27.800 and

02:01:27.960 men

02:01:28.180 okay

02:01:28.600 excellent

02:01:29.820 and

02:01:30.180 how

02:01:30.360 do

02:01:30.480 people

02:01:30.760 if

02:01:31.500 people

02:01:31.760 want

02:01:31.920 to

02:01:32.000 get

02:01:32.100 involved

02:01:32.320 with

02:01:32.480 your

02:01:32.620 organization

02:01:33.220 what

02:01:33.820 do

02:01:34.720 they

02:01:34.860 just

02:01:35.100 donate

02:01:35.520 is

02:01:35.700 there

02:01:35.820 volunteer

02:01:36.220 possibilities

02:01:36.880 or

02:01:37.040 what

02:01:37.180 are

02:01:37.280 the

02:01:37.380 things

02:01:37.580 donations

02:01:38.120 would

02:01:38.440 be

02:01:38.580 great

02:01:38.940 but

02:01:39.220 yeah

02:01:39.740 so

02:01:40.140 it's

02:01:40.320 aibm.org

02:01:41.640 aibm.org

02:01:43.120 there is

02:01:44.580 a donate

02:01:44.880 button

02:01:45.200 there

02:01:45.600 we'd

02:01:45.900 love

02:01:46.040 your

02:01:46.200 support

02:01:46.580 but

02:01:46.920 also

02:01:47.240 the

02:01:47.520 main

02:01:47.700 thing

02:01:47.900 is

02:01:48.060 just

02:01:48.400 to

02:01:48.760 be

02:01:48.880 part

02:01:49.060 of

02:01:49.120 this

02:01:49.240 conversation

02:01:49.820 and

02:01:50.760 let's

02:01:50.960 have

02:01:51.060 a

02:01:51.180 positive

02:01:51.420 conversation

02:01:51.920 about

02:01:52.140 boys

02:01:52.340 and

02:01:52.460 men

02:01:52.660 without

02:01:53.220 putting

02:01:53.480 down

02:01:53.660 women 1.00

02:01:53.840 and

02:01:53.980 girls 0.98

02:01:54.260 and

02:01:54.420 just

02:01:54.540 love

02:01:54.800 the

02:01:54.940 men

02:01:55.100 and

02:01:55.260 boys

02:01:55.700 in

02:01:55.800 your

02:01:55.900 life

02:01:56.200 that's

02:01:57.260 the

02:01:57.380 mission

02:01:57.580 I'm

02:01:57.820 on

02:01:57.940 I feel

02:01:58.200 called

02:01:58.500 to

02:01:58.660 this

02:01:58.840 work

02:01:59.100 now

02:01:59.320 and

02:01:59.440 I'm

02:01:59.660 excited

02:02:00.480 to

02:02:00.700 be

02:02:00.800 part

02:02:01.000 of

02:02:01.100 it

02:02:01.260 I

02:02:01.540 I

02:02:01.580 love

02:02:01.820 hearing

02:02:02.000 about

02:02:02.220 it

02:02:32.220 or

02:02:32.440 intimacy

02:02:33.200 disorders

02:02:33.600 anything

02:02:33.920 if

02:02:34.280 you

02:02:34.500 are

02:02:35.080 just

02:02:35.940 struggling

02:02:36.300 with

02:02:36.480 something

02:02:36.700 we

02:02:36.940 can

02:02:37.180 that's

02:02:38.480 a

02:02:38.560 great

02:02:38.740 program

02:02:39.100 right

02:02:39.360 there

02:02:39.660 and

02:02:40.300 my

02:02:40.740 great

02:02:40.960 friend

02:02:41.160 Steve

02:02:41.500 started

02:02:41.920 it

02:02:42.160 and

02:02:42.380 I've

02:02:42.880 been

02:02:42.960 in

02:02:43.060 recovery

02:02:43.300 with

02:02:43.480 him

02:02:43.580 for

02:02:43.700 years

02:02:43.960 and

02:02:44.140 just

02:02:44.740 blessed

02:02:45.100 man

02:02:45.360 blessed

02:02:45.660 to be

02:02:45.880 on

02:02:46.000 this

02:02:46.160 journey

02:02:46.460 and

02:02:46.680 just

02:02:47.040 know

02:02:47.280 that

02:02:47.440 other

02:02:47.600 men

02:02:47.800 are

02:02:47.920 on

02:02:48.060 it

02:02:48.160 too

02:02:48.320 and

02:02:48.420 trying

02:02:48.560 to

02:02:48.680 figure

02:02:48.880 it

02:02:49.080 out

02:02:49.340 and

02:02:49.520 you

02:02:50.200 know

02:02:50.420 stay

02:02:51.220 alive

02:02:51.520 dude

02:02:51.640 it

02:02:51.760 kind

02:02:51.980 of

02:02:52.080 you

02:02:52.440 you

02:02:53.080 know

02:02:53.180 it's

02:02:53.300 weird

02:02:53.420 it

02:02:53.520 kind

02:02:53.640 of

02:02:53.720 gives

02:02:53.900 you

02:02:53.960 a

02:02:54.020 little

02:02:54.100 bit

02:02:54.200 of

02:02:54.280 purpose

02:02:54.740 yeah

02:02:55.840 you

02:02:56.300 know

02:02:56.380 what I'm

02:02:56.460 saying

02:02:56.660 yeah

02:02:56.960 no

02:02:57.240 and

02:02:57.660 that

02:02:58.040 life

02:02:58.580 without

02:02:58.780 purpose

02:02:59.120 is

02:02:59.340 not

02:02:59.580 life

02:02:59.960 it

02:03:00.940 sure

02:03:01.160 isn't

02:03:01.400 man

02:03:01.580 thank you

02:03:02.720 so much

02:03:02.980 Richard

02:03:03.220 you

02:03:03.420 you bet

02:03:23.080 it

02:03:25.080 but

02:03:25.320 it's

02:03:25.580 gonna

02:03:25.860 tell

02:03:26.260 you

This Past Weekend with Theo Von - February 14, 2025

E562 Richard Reeves

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