Timcast IRL - Tim Pool - Timcast IRL - Trump's Campaign Website HACKED, Anti-Fascist Socialist Vaush Joins

00:00:00.000 you you

00:00:57.000 so as we are getting ready to go live where we're initially planning on

00:01:12.000 starting by talking about the riots that erupted in Philadelphia last night

00:01:16.000 because I covered this earlier And as you know, I still live there.

00:01:20.000 We've been setting up the new studio in the new space, but I was literally just back in the Philly area, in the Philly burbs, the other day.

00:01:27.000 And so chaos, riots, looting, it erupted.

00:01:30.000 There was a pickup truck rammed into, was driving at a high rate of speed, went through a row of cops.

00:01:35.000 A bunch of the cops jumped out of the way, but one got run over, broke her leg, got taken to the hospital.

00:01:39.000 So it's pretty serious stuff.

00:01:41.000 But as we were doing this, we got breaking news that the Trump campaign website got hacked.

00:01:45.000 And I was like, that's breaking right now.

00:01:47.000 We probably should talk about it.

00:01:48.000 And then it turns out like nothing really happened.

00:01:50.000 It was just like, so we'll briefly talk about it, I suppose, because I thought it was very, very significant.

00:01:55.000 But there's a ton of people already in the chat because we are joined today by libertarian, socialist, anti-fascist, Vosh?

00:02:03.000 Yeah, just about Vosh.

00:02:04.000 Hey, how you doing?

00:02:06.000 Vosh. 0.93

00:02:06.000 Vosh, yeah, there we go. 0.93

00:02:07.000 There you go.

00:02:08.000 And look, we had Enrique Tarri of the Proud Boys.

00:02:10.000 I said we'll get somebody from the left in.

00:02:13.000 It's very difficult to get a lot of people on the left, so I appreciate you coming in and hanging out.

00:02:18.000 We've been hanging out and talking.

00:02:19.000 I think we're probably gonna have some arguments about the riots, about a ton of stuff.

00:02:23.000 But I just want to say, to anybody who thinks that we're going to have like a Bloodsports-style debate, you're not correct.

00:02:30.000 We don't do this.

00:02:31.000 And so I'm just going to tell you right now, fair warning, you're mostly all going to be dissatisfied.

00:02:35.000 I didn't bring on Enrique Tarrio to literally just attack him and get into a big debate with him.

00:02:45.000 I ask him some questions, I challenge him on some of his ideas, and mostly just try to understand him.

00:02:49.000 We're going to do the same thing with Vosh.

00:02:50.000 Vosh, right?

00:02:51.000 I'm pronouncing it right.

00:02:51.000 Yes.

00:02:52.000 Yeah, excellent.

00:02:53.000 And I think we're going to have a good insight into just a lot of the things we don't normally get to hear from from, I guess, leftists.

00:03:01.000 Is that appropriate?

00:03:01.000 Yeah.

00:03:02.000 The Real Blood Sports is the upcoming me versus Enrique Tarrio conversation.

00:03:06.000 Obviously, that one will be, you know.

00:03:08.000 I mean, I'd be down if you wanted to have a debate.

00:03:11.000 Because I don't debate people.

00:03:12.000 I'll have a discussion.

00:03:13.000 We can talk about stuff.

00:03:14.000 Enrique actually mentioned, I think, debating with you.

00:03:17.000 Real?

00:03:17.000 When he was here, was it Vaush that he wanted to debate?

00:03:20.000 No, no, no, no.

00:03:20.000 Probably Hassan's the... I know we look so similar, but... Yeah, well, I'm terrified of flying, so we'll pace him out one at a time, but I'm not principally opposed.

00:03:30.000 Try and have your mic, like, right in your mouth and... Gotcha, right.

00:03:33.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:03:34.000 There we go.

00:03:34.000 Nailing it.

00:03:35.000 Getting better.

00:03:36.000 So, so, just, like, because the story just broke, I don't want to, I don't want to just ignore it, but apparently it's like a big nothing burger.

00:03:42.000 But I do want to show this real quick.

00:03:44.000 Before we do, Welcome to the show, everybody.

00:03:46.000 This is the Tim Castellaw Podcast.

00:03:47.000 Of course, Ian.

00:03:48.000 Yo! 1.00

00:03:48.000 You know, we got Ian here. 1.00

00:03:50.000 What it is!

00:03:51.000 Lydia is producing, as most of you are aware, and I am Tim Poole.

00:03:54.000 And as you all know, Vosh is our guest.

00:03:57.000 It's Vosh V. So, Vosh V. We're gonna argue about a lot of stuff, probably, and we'll talk about news. 0.94

00:04:01.000 But hit the like button, subscribe, notification bell.

00:04:04.000 We do the show Monday through Friday, live at 8 p.m.

00:04:06.000 And just so everybody knows, we're totally down to have literally anybody come into the studio and have a debate.

00:04:11.000 I know there are some people who are like, Tim, why won't you have the far right on?

00:04:14.000 I'm like, Who said we wouldn't?

00:04:16.000 No one said we wouldn't.

00:04:17.000 I interviewed a Soviet general in Ukraine during the You're My Dance stuff.

00:04:20.000 I interviewed a Brazilian gang leader.

00:04:22.000 There are some limits. 0.97

00:04:24.000 I'm not going to bring some lunatic serial killer into my house.

00:04:29.000 What about good content though?

00:04:31.000 It would be great. 1.00

00:04:32.000 He's strapped to the chair screaming, I'll kill you! 1.00

00:04:34.000 And I was like, that's interesting. 1.00

00:04:35.000 Why do you want to kill me?

00:04:37.000 It's true. 0.67

00:04:37.000 Before I came on, they were actually, there was a possum outside they were going to bring into my play. 0.67

00:04:41.000 So I'm not special.

00:04:42.000 It really is.

00:04:43.000 And that also would be good content.

00:04:45.000 Oh yeah.

00:04:46.000 Great stuff.

00:04:47.000 I like the way you think.

00:04:48.000 Well, let's, let's, let's, let's first do this.

00:04:50.000 Uh, you know, this is a breaking story.

00:04:52.000 Uh, Trump's campaign website is seized by hackers who claim to have evidence that proves his criminal involvement with foreign actors to manipulate the 2020 election.

00:05:01.000 Of course, as of right now, his website is back to normal, we checked.

00:05:04.000 And so I saw this and I was like, whoa, this is like, you know, something's gonna come, let's launch with this, and then it's just a big nothing burger, these things happen.

00:05:12.000 But the gist of the story is, his campaign website was seized by Hackers Tuesday.

00:05:17.000 A message reading, this site was seized appeared briefly on the homepage of DonaldJTrump.com before the website was taken offline completely just after 7.20pm.

00:05:25.000 The message continued that the world has had enough of fake news spreaded daily by the president.

00:05:31.000 It is time to allow the world to know the truth.

00:05:34.000 The hackers behind the stunt claimed to have compromised multiple of the president's devices.

00:05:39.000 Seems like grammatical errors aren't unique to the hackers.

00:05:42.000 Daily Mail, come on, get a copy of it.

00:05:43.000 That gave them full access to Trump and his relatives, along with access to confidential information.

00:05:48.000 Strictly classified information is exposed, proving that the Trump government is involved in the origins of the coronavirus, the Post read.

00:05:54.000 We have evidence that completely discredits Mr. Trump as president, proving his criminal involvement in cooperation with foreign actors manipulating the 2020 elections.

00:06:02.000 The U.S.

00:06:03.000 citizens have no choice.

00:06:04.000 Okay.

00:06:05.000 It's a nothing burger.

00:06:07.000 I almost feel kind of dumb that we even decided to bring it up because I was like, it was like breaking news and I'm like, oh wow, we got, we got what's going on.

00:06:12.000 I think you've got it though.

00:06:13.000 Same typos in the actual Daily Mail writing.

00:06:16.000 Maybe they did it.

00:06:16.000 Daily Mail needs to hire some copy editors.

00:06:17.000 They have grammatical errors all the time.

00:06:19.000 The inside scoop.

00:06:20.000 Yeah, man.

00:06:21.000 There it is.

00:06:22.000 That makes perfect sense.

00:06:23.000 We've busted.

00:06:24.000 Nah, you know.

00:06:25.000 They're making the news.

00:06:26.000 I gotta be honest.

00:06:27.000 Daily Mail needs to hire some copy editors.

00:06:28.000 Yeah, they do.

00:06:29.000 So like, you know, they have grammatical errors all the time.

00:06:30.000 That's so wild.

00:06:31.000 Of all the outlets, you know, there's that.

00:06:34.000 But we, so look, that's the gist of it.

00:06:37.000 So, Tim, was it true what they were saying, that they were trying to blame Trump for the COVID crisis?

00:06:42.000 What's going on there?

00:06:42.000 What, the hackers?

00:06:43.000 Yeah, that's what I heard.

00:06:44.000 I heard that they were trying to blame Trump for this, and they were like, this is a big deal.

00:06:47.000 I mentioned earlier, is the U.S.

00:06:49.000 government and the Chinese government, are all these governments working together to create a bioweapon in a Chinese lab that then got out? 0.89

00:06:55.000 That's like a movie script, dude.

00:06:56.000 No, I'm 100% behind it.

00:06:57.000 Yes, I like it.

00:06:57.000 Really?

00:07:02.000 Taff.

00:07:04.000 The bad grammar kind of leaves, like, involved in the origins?

00:07:07.000 I mean, I think Trump flubbed the COVID response, sure, but involved in creating coronavirus?

00:07:11.000 I don't know, like, that'd be a pretty sensational claim, right? 0.98

00:07:15.000 It's pretty ridiculous.

00:07:16.000 Maybe they saw Borat, they were inspired, you know, creative flourish, but I don't know, maybe... Could explain why the grammar was wrong. 0.85

00:07:22.000 They made it, put it in China so they could blame China.

00:07:24.000 I've heard that it wasn't just a Chinese company working out of that lab.

00:07:29.000 Where did you hear this?

00:07:30.000 I read it on the internet.

00:07:33.000 I read that some company that Fauci was involved with was working at the lab in Wuhan.

00:07:39.000 I don't have the documents in front of me.

00:07:41.000 I give up.

00:07:43.000 I met Fauci.

00:07:44.000 He admitted to it, though.

00:07:44.000 It's true.

00:07:45.000 Oh, really?

00:07:46.000 Oh, snap. 0.99

00:07:46.000 So let's dive in. 0.99

00:07:48.000 You just said you think Trump flubbed the response.

00:07:51.000 Yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:07:52.000 I think, I mean, one of the problems is we don't actually have a metric for knowing what success looks like.

00:07:56.000 Every pandemic response is unique, you know?

00:07:59.000 Would Hillary Clinton have done better or worse? 1.00

00:08:01.000 The fact of the matter is, America is its own country.

00:08:04.000 No other country is a perfect comparison.

00:08:06.000 We also have a very decentralized government.

00:08:08.000 States are given a lot of autonomy when it comes to responses.

00:08:10.000 Which can be a downside when it comes to stuff like this.

00:08:13.000 I think there were a lot of things that he did wrong, from a sort of habitual tendency to downplay the severity of the virus.

00:08:19.000 We know, of course, that he was informed of its severity but didn't want people to panic, which seems like it was an effort to keep stock investors from sort of, you know, hard-selling, which may or may not have worked.

00:08:29.000 We know, of course, there was a crash later anyway.

00:08:31.000 But the thing that bothers me the most about the whole response is that I don't actually think there's a metric that Republicans would, like a line, where they would say, that's too many deaths.

00:08:42.000 Because right now it's at 225,000-ish.

00:08:45.000 And I feel like, and Trump's saying, well, you know, they said it was going to be 2 million, which was the estimate if nothing was done.

00:08:51.000 So what if it had hit a million?

00:08:53.000 Would they say, well, that's half of what was expected?

00:08:55.000 If it hit 2 million, would Trump have said, well, that's exactly what they said was going to happen?

00:08:59.000 To be fair, you could say the same thing about the Democrats.

00:09:02.000 Or, you know, if it's right versus left, the Democrats would not have accepted any number at all.

00:09:07.000 Oh, I mean, if they were in power, I'd be perfectly willing to criticize for them.

00:09:10.000 Absolutely.

00:09:11.000 Yeah.

00:09:11.000 But right now, I mean, we this is I mean, Trump has had his hands have covered this whole thing.

00:09:16.000 It's true, but it feels like then the real issue is do you like Trump or not?

00:09:20.000 I mean, look, 225,000 is really, really bad.

00:09:23.000 It's horrifying, right?

00:09:25.000 And even Trump has said that.

00:09:27.000 We don't know what it could have been or would have been.

00:09:29.000 There's no metric for success, which you pointed out.

00:09:31.000 So it's either do you trust him or do you like him or do you not?

00:09:34.000 Well, there are things that he did that I'm reasonably sure like a Hillary Clinton.

00:09:37.000 And by the way, please, everyone, I don't like Hillary Clinton. 1.00

00:09:42.000 We can write that on my tombstone.

00:09:43.000 What about Joe Biden?

00:09:46.000 I'll admit, I do like him more than Hillary Clinton.

00:09:47.000 I think he is marginally more likable than Hillary Clinton.

00:09:51.000 Hillary Clinton is the bottom of the barrel, man. 0.98

00:09:52.000 Right, right.

00:09:53.000 So we're only nowhere to go but up.

00:09:58.000 So with Trump, when it comes to stuff like, for example, downplaying the severity of the virus, I feel like Democrats would have done that to an extent.

00:10:06.000 But when it comes to stuff like habitually like ignoring masks or like sort of arguing with Fauci back and forth to the point where Fauci now needs a security detail to go in his runs because there are a lot of far-right groups who think that he's trying to lock down the whole country with him sort of

00:10:20.000 promoting the anti-lockdown protests, saying they were taking back their respective states, which

00:10:25.000 has led to additional threats of violence.

00:10:27.000 I feel like stuff like that refers to a particular kind of far-right populism that the Democrats

00:10:31.000 don't have the ability to tap into, you know?

00:10:33.000 What do you mean?

00:10:34.000 I don't think the Democrats really have the same base of fanatical support in the way

00:10:40.000 that the Trump supporters do.

00:10:42.000 They have, now there are like K-Hive lunatics, and those people exist and they're real, but 1.00

00:10:47.000 I feel like their antagonism is more directed at sort of chauvinism or anti-progressivism

00:10:54.000 or just against any candidate their preferred candidate doesn't like.

00:10:57.000 But this like hardcore, ultra-nationalist rejection of a national response to COVID, that I think is a particular to the Trump fandom.

00:11:08.000 What groups?

00:11:10.000 Like what right-wing groups are engaging in this kind of violence and going after people?

00:11:15.000 Well, the violence is fairly... I mean, violence, like political violence, is always going to be a fairly small percentage of the actual harm done here.

00:11:22.000 No political group could ever do harm to rival the 225,000 dead, you know?

00:11:26.000 Right.

00:11:26.000 But we tend to wipe that stuff under the rug.

00:11:28.000 This is one of the criticisms that I have as a libertarian socialist, like, with the general system that we live in, you know?

00:11:34.000 We'll say, like, news media will focus a terrorist attack seven dead.

00:11:37.000 That's horrible, of course.

00:11:38.000 But, at the same time, you know, Pharmaceutical companies are pushing doctors to give unneeded opiates to people, and in the same period of time, 13,000 people might die.

00:11:46.000 But that's a statistic.

00:11:48.000 That's not a news story.

00:11:49.000 That just keeps happening.

00:11:51.000 So what I'm worried about isn't the actual political violence.

00:11:54.000 It's about the attitudes we've taken that have allowed COVID to continue to this point.

00:11:58.000 Just today, Trump said, as one of his campaign achievements prior to the election, conquering COVID-19.

00:12:05.000 On Saturday, highest recorded number of cases in the history of the country in a single day.

00:12:11.000 Horrifying.

00:12:11.000 And Mike Pence has said, I think he said during the debate, he tweeted it and deleted the tweet, that Trump locked everything down, which is not the case.

00:12:19.000 There's a lot of complicated stuff here, because we're going now from COVID, we're getting into political violence.

00:12:22.000 So I think the simple point I can make, which I did, I guess, is when it comes to the COVID response, there's nothing to base it off of.

00:12:31.000 For me, I'm kind of like, OK, well, early on, Trump took action, very early on, like it was in January, to form the task force to suspend most, to restrict most travel.

00:12:41.000 There were some cases in which people could travel from China eventually to Europe.

00:12:44.000 And Anthony Fauci in March said no one could have done it better.

00:12:48.000 So that was the early response.

00:12:49.000 Dr. Fauci said, don't wear masks.

00:12:51.000 We had, who was the Surgeon General guy?

00:12:53.000 Don't wear masks.

00:12:54.000 They both did.

00:12:55.000 They tweeted about it.

00:12:56.000 Fauci is now saying it was a mistake for him to say not to wear masks.

00:12:59.000 There's a video that the Republicans put out where you've got Kamala Harris and Joe Biden criticizing things Trump has said, and then they show that was Fauci was the one advising, like Fauci was the one saying it publicly.

00:13:09.000 So, in this capacity, I've been covering this since it started, and I remember Anthony Fauci saying, Trump is doing the best, I don't think anyone could do anything better.

00:13:18.000 Now we're several months on, we're getting close to election, and all of a sudden everyone's saying Trump has

00:13:22.000 done a miserable job.

00:13:23.000 To be fair, it's not all of a sudden.

00:13:24.000 I mean, there have been points where Fauci's—and I disagree, by the way.

00:13:29.000 I think initially Fauci's arguing you don't need to use masks was—

00:13:32.000 I mean, the logic he used there was that he was trying to disincentivize the purchase of PPE that otherwise needed to

00:13:38.000 go to medical professionals.

00:13:39.000 I remember.

00:13:40.000 And I think it's irresponsible to put that out saying masks aren't effective or we don't know masks are effective

00:13:44.000 I think a more responsible way would have been to sort of implore Americans to be responsible with their consumerism

00:13:49.000 You know the weird you the weirdest thing about it is though early on conservatives are the ones like I'm gonna

00:13:54.000 go buy masks I was getting messaged by people like it don't listen to

00:13:57.000 Fauci go buy your mask Trarians yeah, but it's but it's both like you had you had 1.00

00:14:03.000 Democrats saying don't wear masks and the conservatives saying wear masks

00:14:06.000 Then it flipped at some point and now it's the Democrats or I should say the left or whatever it is

00:14:10.000 I don't think it was that unanimous I think that for the most part people were on board with

00:14:13.000 wearing masks and there was a brief period where we were very

00:14:15.000 Concerned about making sure there was enough materials available for the for the you know for the hospitals and

00:14:20.000 for the nurses and what-have-you But even early on, and Fauci's in a difficult position here, because I have a strong feeling that if Fauci was too critical of the president, he would be replaced for somebody less so.

00:14:31.000 Like Dr. Atlas?

00:14:33.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:14:33.000 So if Fauci praises the president, there's kind of like that, okay, how much of this is like the kid getting patted on the shoulder by the teacher, and how much of this is like a real political assessment, you know?

00:14:43.000 I don't know, I just think it's a degree of skepticism that we have to apply.

00:14:47.000 With regards to the early response though, with Trump though, we know that he defunded the CDC, he eliminated Obama's pandemic response team, he pulled the 44 researchers out of Wuhan who were supposed to investigate the origins of that virus, and while he did stop travel from China quickly, he did basically nothing for the next month before stopping it from Europe, by which point I think we now know it was pretty much too late.

00:15:09.000 What should he have done?

00:15:10.000 I think that he says this now, like, Biden called me xenophobic for locking down China.

00:15:16.000 It's not true.

00:15:17.000 Biden called him xenophobic, comma, but also... But he was responding to Trump's tweet.

00:15:22.000 Sure, but that's because Trump is pretty xenophobic when it comes to China.

00:15:25.000 You can lock down China without it being like this weird nationalist condemnation of China, you know?

00:15:30.000 You can just say like, oh, they're going through their own stuff right now.

00:15:34.000 Well, what could he have done?

00:15:35.000 I think obviously a lockdown from Europe faster would have been preferable.

00:15:39.000 I think, regardless of what Fauci said, you know, once it was known that masks were available for everyone, that the PPE line was secure, he should have been very on board with promoting their use.

00:15:49.000 Instead of like, Tacitly supporting the anti-lockdown, anti-masker protests with his tweets.

00:15:54.000 And most importantly, I think he should have laid out a national plan to help states, to guide states, to give them money necessary.

00:16:01.000 He did.

00:16:01.000 To help them.

00:16:02.000 Well, he kind of held it over some of their heads.

00:16:04.000 It was like... Well, there was the three-phase plan that he launched earlier in the year of, like, what to do and how to do it.

00:16:09.000 And then he did this press conference where it was like, phase one, phase two, phase three.

00:16:13.000 Here's what you need.

00:16:15.000 I'm the president, I can't control the states, now it's up to the governors.

00:16:17.000 Sure, but he can though.

00:16:19.000 Like, you can do a national mandate, you can order national distribution of resources, and it feels like, and if we get down to the dates it gets particular here, but there were times when it felt like he was like blackmailing states with support, like, oh yeah, I'll give you this, I'll give you this, your hospital's need, I'll give you these resources, you know, but you're doing so terribly lately.

00:16:38.000 Just recently he said, I think this is one of the debates, you'll have to forgive me if I don't remember the exact source, he said that He didn't care so much about aid for some of the stimulus deals because they would have gone to high-crime Democrat cities.

00:16:52.000 And what this suggests to me is the partisanship of a president who is going to give preferential treatment to bases of support that he knows will vote for him doesn't really care so much about other groups.

00:17:02.000 I respect your point.

00:17:03.000 I think it's complicated.

00:17:05.000 In terms of Trump's ability to accurately and charismatically convey an idea, I would say he lacks that substantially.

00:17:12.000 But one of the issues with giving money to a lot of these states, whether he's legally allowed to do it, there's going to be a lawsuit.

00:17:18.000 You've got these jurisdictions, because we'll now move into sort of the political violence stuff, and we can get into what's going on in Philadelphia.

00:17:23.000 You've got these jurisdictions that are cutting people loose over and over and over again, and the riots keep going.

00:17:28.000 So why should I, as somebody who is, you know, I pay taxes in a state not having these problems, why should I have those federal tax dollars go to a state that's just dumping it into a sinkhole?

00:17:39.000 So now what we have is we have states that have a budget crisis, notably New York is a really good example.

00:17:44.000 Cuomo said, I believe it was last year, God help us if the rich leave.

00:17:48.000 Then you get Ocasio-Cortez leading a protest in the financial district, which triggers, I guess it was a catalyst for Amazon saying we don't want to bring our 20,000 to 40,000 jobs here, which is $30 billion over a decade.

00:18:02.000 So now you've got New York City in a budget crisis and then they go to Trump and say bail us out.

00:18:06.000 And then Trump says, no.

00:18:08.000 And particularly because you've defunded a billion dollars from your police.

00:18:12.000 You had widespread rioting and looting that wasn't taken care of.

00:18:15.000 You've used taxpayer dollars to put a political message in the street.

00:18:18.000 Why should federal tax dollars go towards what New York is doing when they're acting extremely irresponsibly?

00:18:23.000 I think there are a lot of issues being conflated here.

00:18:26.000 First of all, if we just look broadly at like a state level, we know it's generally red states who underperform when it comes to the investment they need from the federal government as opposed to what they pay in taxes. 0.65

00:18:34.000 In large part because red states tend to have a smaller portion of their population in big cities, which tend to be more efficient economically.

00:18:41.000 But then like you say, so New York's in a tiff, as it is, undeniably.

00:18:46.000 And like Ocasio-Cortez and the marches and the protests, the BLM protests have caused an amount of damage which is infinitesimal compared to like Say, for example, the amount of money that the New York

00:18:56.000 City Police Department spends every year on settlements from police brutality or other

00:18:59.000 mis- about a billion, a quarter billion a year, which exceeds the damage done by any of the

00:19:04.000 protests.

00:19:04.000 And that's an every year thing, not an exorbitant, you know, like once in a half century civil

00:19:10.000 rights protest thing.

00:19:12.000 When we're talking about the reason why New York is struggling right now, it's undeniably

00:19:16.000 because of the impact of COVID.

00:19:17.000 And I mean, that's hurting everyone.

00:19:19.000 New York is a massive city, which means that its supply lines and its industries are going to be more on the razor's edge when it comes to their ability to support the population.

00:19:27.000 Like, a farm in a bad economy can hold itself for a while, but 8 million people in a dense urban network.

00:19:35.000 Needs a lot of support and I just when it comes to like how why should I help these people?

00:19:40.000 I mean, I understand the frustration I guess I mean I grew up in California Hold on not not so much.

00:19:46.000 Why should I help these people?

00:19:47.000 I totally understand people of New York need help for sure It's more of if I give money to the city to the government Are they going to light it on fire?

00:19:54.000 Is it actually going to go to help the people or are they just burning money?

00:19:58.000 Well, I mean, I haven't looked at their budget registry for the past... I imagine that most of it goes to people, but I mean, when it comes to... You said defunding the police.

00:20:04.000 I mean, that would mean there's less money going towards very high, you know, powerful institutions in that city.

00:20:10.000 So I feel like, if anything, that would aid in the responsible allocation of those funds.

00:20:13.000 What we're talking about right now, ultimately, is how much do you trust city governments to support their people and my answer unequivocally would be I absolutely do not but I don't think the solution to that is denying them funds.

00:20:24.000 I think that's the solution to that is a grassroots organization or network or uprising that tries to make our government more accountable to its own people.

00:20:33.000 Yeah, like a blockchain or some sort of database that shows where the money went.

00:20:36.000 I, I, it's the transparency in our cities, like absolute 100%. Everyone should believe in that.

00:20:42.000 I'm, I, I don't think these cities have done a good job at all.

00:20:45.000 I think we are seeing a lot of problems with gross mismanagement, and even before COVID and before the riots, New York was in trouble.

00:20:52.000 That's why I brought up Cuomo saying, you know, God help us if the rich leave. 0.85

00:20:55.000 Doesn't that suck, though? 0.95

00:20:56.000 Like they're doing a terrible job? 0.99

00:20:58.000 Well, I mean, that's the thing.

00:20:59.000 Again, this could be my libertarian leaning here.

00:21:01.000 I just don't like the fact that cities, in order to function properly, have to suck up to big corporations in the way they currently do.

00:21:09.000 Now, I understand, of course, business is a part of how cities operate.

00:21:12.000 That's how life is.

00:21:14.000 But it feels very often that politicians are more interested in levying the money that they get to suck up to these corporations than they are using it for people.

00:21:21.000 Stadiums being a big, big, big part of that, you know?

00:21:26.000 I don't like Amazon, man.

00:21:29.000 I agree with you for the most part.

00:21:30.000 Politicians sucking up to corporations is a problem. 1.00

00:21:32.000 It's a lot of what we're seeing now and we've seen over the past several decades, which has led to the erosion of the manufacturing base in this country, but I digress.

00:21:40.000 Where does the money come from?

00:21:42.000 You know, the government doesn't... it runs the post office, I guess.

00:21:45.000 What other, like, actual services does the government have in terms of giving a service, like, and making money?

00:21:50.000 It's the post office, I guess?

00:21:52.000 Apart from taxes.

00:21:53.000 So, the government doesn't generate revenue in the sense that, like, a business... the government taxes the existing market.

00:22:03.000 Yeah.

00:22:04.000 I think only the post office actually creates an exchange medium for the government where people can exchange currency or whatever.

00:22:09.000 Maybe I'm forgetting something obvious.

00:22:10.000 Tolls?

00:22:12.000 You're talking about the federal government?

00:22:13.000 What I'm saying is like, if Amazon comes into New York, they're bringing currency in that people then trade with Amazon, and then the government takes pieces of that.

00:22:22.000 And then it says, we're going to allocate, we're going to take this much, and then we're going to allocate it to fixing certain things.

00:22:26.000 And I got no problem with that.

00:22:28.000 But that's why they need Amazon. 1.00

00:22:31.000 Or they need these companies.

00:22:32.000 But ultimately, it is the people who vote politicians in, not corporations.

00:22:38.000 Because we don't treat other interest groups the same way.

00:22:40.000 For example, here's another thing essential to the functioning of a society.

00:22:43.000 Teachers.

00:22:44.000 Teachers, we literally need them.

00:22:46.000 Absolutely we do.

00:22:47.000 And yet, teachers unions, while powerful in slim areas, teachers are constantly getting their budgets cut, schools are constantly getting defunded.

00:22:55.000 Despite this essential element of a functioning society being something that we need to function in a modern tech-based economy, they get like no relative power.

00:23:04.000 Corporations get everything when it comes to the delegation of interest from politicians, you know?

00:23:10.000 I think you're right, but I think we need... One of the problems with government is that, what do you do when it goes bad?

00:23:17.000 When the government programs are no longer working properly?

00:23:19.000 When the teachers are no longer teaching?

00:23:20.000 When the schools are broken?

00:23:22.000 Do we just keep putting money into it?

00:23:23.000 Keep spending tax and tax and tax?

00:23:25.000 Or do we finally cut it off and say, we gotta shut it down, turn it off, turn it back on again.

00:23:29.000 Because whatever we're doing isn't working.

00:23:30.000 Sure, but denying New York City money during a pandemic isn't going to functionally change the way its government operates.

00:23:36.000 It's only going to hurt people.

00:23:38.000 I think that, and also just from a functional perspective, it also bolsters democratic political will.

00:23:43.000 If you're not interested in seeing that happen, seeing the president, like, hold his hands up and let cities, like, wilt because of some presumption of, you know, poor city management.

00:23:53.000 It's certainly not just New York, you know.

00:23:55.000 In fact, when it comes to actual, like, percentage of wealth that goes back to its citizenry in a meaningful way, I think New York is fairly in line with a lot of other large cities, including some Republican-run ones.

00:24:05.000 We don't have those discussions about those cities.

00:24:08.000 How are they comparable to Republicans?

00:24:09.000 With regards to these cities, like, in terms of the proportion of the money that goes into the city and how it's used, how it's distributed, New York isn't like some magic sinkhole.

00:24:18.000 It's a very large city, but there are other cities that are in comparable spots.

00:24:21.000 I think the big challenge, I guess, is Trump is looking at it from the perspective of—and I can only assume, I don't know—why is a citizen of Wyoming going to pay for what New York is doing?

00:24:33.000 Do you know what happened with Cuomo and the nursing homes?

00:24:36.000 Yeah, but we've been paying for Wyoming for like a century, though.

00:24:39.000 Yeah, but there's like, it's way, way, way less.

00:24:42.000 Because there's less people in Wyoming, I mean... Right, right, right.

00:24:45.000 So the issue is, Andrew Cuomo puts sick people in nursing homes.

00:24:50.000 People die.

00:24:51.000 I'm not gonna defend that.

00:24:52.000 No, no, right, but like, the problems were caused by them.

00:24:56.000 You know what I mean?

00:24:56.000 Sure, but... And, they're like...

00:24:59.000 I'll be honest Wyoming right you could say the same thing like well

00:25:02.000 Why is Wyoming as a state so poor like why is does it have to take so much federal money compared to what earns in?

00:25:07.000 Taxes well, what are those governor's doing? What are those city mayor is doing?

00:25:10.000 We just never have those conversations every time it comes to talk about like the responsibility of city government

00:25:16.000 We always focus it on Well on Democratic run strongholds, which is in part

00:25:20.000 because cities tend to be more Democratic for a number of really complicated sociological reasons

00:25:24.000 But also because I don't think we want to acknowledge the fact that this poor city management thing isn't a Democrat

00:25:30.000 problem There's a functional rot in the way this country treats its citizens, and that operates everything from county all up to the national level.

00:25:38.000 And I wish when we had that conversation it was less Less partisan, less about getting owns for one or the other.

00:25:46.000 Because I can tell you, if Biden wins, and I hope he does, I hope to spend the next four years ruthlessly criticizing him and everyone who supports him on these same fundamental points.

00:25:55.000 Because they do matter to me.

00:25:57.000 And I agree, New York City is in a lot of ways a I want to ask you about Biden, but I feel like we kind of glossed over before.

00:26:05.000 You mentioned Fauci and threats of violence from the right and things like that.

00:26:10.000 So correct me if I'm wrong, the general idea you're saying is that Trump and the right have like fervent supporters of them that are ultra-nationalists and willing to be violent?

00:26:20.000 Yeah, I would say more so than the left, at least if we look at like FBI data and crime statistics and such.

00:26:25.000 So this past year, how many pro-Trump things have happened where pro-Trump groups have gone out and committed mass acts of violence or targeted people or killed people or anything like that?

00:26:37.000 I can't tell you if I remember the number.

00:26:39.000 I will say, though, it's not... I mean, the most thing that immediately comes to mind would probably be the Michigan governor kidnapping.

00:26:46.000 But those guys weren't right-wing.

00:26:48.000 Well, they were.

00:26:49.000 I mean, that one guy was... They said he was an anarchist, but he was posting memes about killing commies on Facebook, so he definitely wasn't left-wing.

00:26:57.000 Some of them were... I think this is one of the things where it gets really complicated.

00:27:01.000 Yeah.

00:27:01.000 But these guys are clearly just anti-government.

00:27:03.000 I mean... Sure, I will, but I mean... And then they went after a Democratic governor who was being very heavily targeted by the right, and they seemed to reflect... Doesn't mean they're right-wing.

00:27:12.000 Well, they were reflecting a lot of the rhetoric that was being used, and some of the people up there, I'm pretty sure they were MAGA hats.

00:27:17.000 I would need to look back They were at Black Lives Matter protests, actually, two of the guys.

00:27:20.000 So I'm not going to pretend those guys were left-wing. 0.97

00:27:22.000 They were just crazy anarchists. 0.71

00:27:26.000 As an anarchist, I thoroughly disavow. 0.99

00:27:29.000 They were ANCAPs.

00:27:30.000 They were a very different group.

00:27:31.000 I don't even know if they were ANCAPs, though.

00:27:33.000 They were marching with Black Lives Matter.

00:27:35.000 They clearly have some of their social values aligning with leftist groups.

00:27:38.000 Ideologically idiosyncratic, perhaps?

00:27:40.000 But I'm not going to call them leftists.

00:27:42.000 I think it's absurd. 0.99

00:27:42.000 The media says these are right-wing militias or whatever, and it's like, it's a bunch of crazy guys. 0.99

00:27:46.000 Like, look, you'll see a Trump rally. 0.62

00:27:48.000 The people in Trump rallies aren't going around attacking people.

00:27:51.000 Well, that's a little bit simplistic though, isn't it?

00:27:53.000 I mean, again, political violence, terrorist attacks, these always represent a very small fraction of actual deaths in a country at any given point in time.

00:27:59.000 Absolutely.

00:28:00.000 Like, but since we started talking right now, probably you could chalk up 50, 100 people who've died in this country to some sort of pharmaceutical or military or something like that.

00:28:09.000 Opioids, man.

00:28:10.000 But I'll be waiting a while until I get to see the next news story about like a terrorist attack.

00:28:14.000 I just, when I'm concerned about far-right violence, I'm less concerned with like the individual terror attacks and more concerned with the fact that their actions seem to reflect a disposition prominent in the Republican Party.

00:28:29.000 Whereas with Antifa, for example, nobody in the Democratic Party is going to defend Antifa.

00:28:34.000 I'll defend Antifa, but they won't.

00:28:37.000 Has any Democrat disavowed Antifa?

00:28:40.000 Didn't Biden say he would arrest the anarchists and looters?

00:28:43.000 He has never said Antifa or Black Lives Matter extremists.

00:28:47.000 Well, what is a Black Lives Matter extremist?

00:28:50.000 The people in Portland who are wearing Black Lives Matter sweaters and waving flags and throwing explosives at cops.

00:28:55.000 Sure.

00:28:55.000 Well, I mean, I think he said anarchists and looters.

00:28:57.000 I'm pretty sure there's been firm disavowal of people who have committed violence against the Commons.

00:29:00.000 He's disavowed.

00:29:01.000 So he said, violence is wrong and, you know, these people should be arrested.

00:29:04.000 And then when asked, like, will you condemn, what about Antifa?

00:29:09.000 He doesn't say it.

00:29:09.000 Then he yells at the Proud Boys.

00:29:11.000 I think I would have to.

00:29:12.000 I'm pretty sure I remember him going over that.

00:29:14.000 Antifa doesn't have a base of support amongst the Democratic Party.

00:29:18.000 It tends to be very far-left people who hate the Democratic Party.

00:29:21.000 What about Ocasio-Cortez, Ilhan Omar, and their cohorts?

00:29:25.000 They're SOCDEMs. 0.91

00:29:26.000 I mean, they're left-leaning compared to America, but if you put them in Europe, they'd be considered center-left politicians.

00:29:31.000 I love them, don't get me wrong.

00:29:33.000 I mean, when you start talking about Europe and the US, left and right becomes rather

00:29:37.000 meaningless.

00:29:38.000 Because then are we talking about revolution versus status quo?

00:29:42.000 Are we talking about economic policy?

00:29:43.000 Are we talking about cultural policy?

00:29:45.000 I think it's fair to say that if you look at Ilhan Omar or AOC, they're probably not

00:29:49.000 on the revolutionary side of the argument, just judging by the career path they've chosen.

00:29:52.000 But the Antifa people are almost to a man going to be very far left, very anti-establishment

00:30:00.000 types who are probably as disgusted by the Democrats as they are the Republicans.

00:30:04.000 So, a lot of people like to bring up Antifa all the time, and like a lot of the stuff we saw in Portland, I've actually said repeatedly, stop calling them Antifa.

00:30:13.000 They're wearing Black Lives Matter sweaters.

00:30:15.000 They're flying flags that say Black Lives Matter. 0.51

00:30:17.000 They have plastic shields that say Black Lives Matter on it.

00:30:19.000 The way I explain it to people is, if you go to a large group of people and say, how many of you want to protest in the name of Antifa, or anti-fascism, whatever, you'll get a decent people saying yes.

00:30:29.000 If you go to the average person, a group of people, and say, how many of you want to go protest for Black Lives Matter, more of them will say yes.

00:30:35.000 So I definitely think you have people who were previously flying the Antifa flag, now flying Black Lives Matter.

00:30:41.000 But you have way more people joining in the ranks of that violence in the name of Black Lives Matter, which is funded through ActBlue, which is the Democrats' fundraising platform, has been routinely supported by almost every, I would say every national Democratic politician. 0.54

00:30:58.000 My problem is that this is the exact same logic that people use to condemn the civil rights protesters of the 1960s.

00:31:04.000 Anytime you have a lot of civil unrest, there are going to be groups at different levels of radicalization that get involved.

00:31:09.000 Most of the civil rights protesters, ye back in day 50, 60 years ago, Probably boomers, you know, just like middle class, fairly progressive black or non-black people who just wanted to see their rights achieved.

00:31:20.000 And amongst those people, there have always been socialists and anarchists and much more left-leaning people.

00:31:26.000 And sometimes those groups, or sometimes even the regular moderate folk, will clash with the police.

00:31:30.000 And the problem is that when we focus on this violence, especially with a movement as large as Black Lives Matter, which if judging by the number of people who participate in these rallies goes, the largest civil rights protest in all of American history.

00:31:41.000 When we start saying, like, well, these few people threw rocks at cops here and there.

00:31:46.000 We're talking about fractions of millions of people.

00:31:49.000 So I'd like to say Black Lives Matter as a movement is, with Biden, reformist and generally quite nonviolent as protests go.

00:31:59.000 And then amongst them, are there more radical people?

00:32:01.000 Absolutely.

00:32:02.000 But I'll even defend, to an extent, radical action when it comes to protesting against injustice like this.

00:32:08.000 So, do you know how many people last year, how many unarmed black men were shot and killed by police?

00:32:14.000 I think, I mean, it was like, unarmed black men? 0.56

00:32:16.000 Unarmed black men shot and killed by police.

00:32:17.000 Somewhere between 20 and 40, I don't remember exactly.

00:32:21.000 13.

00:32:21.000 I want to be clear, it's unarmed black men shot and killed.

00:32:25.000 There are instances, you know, like George Floyd was not shot and killed.

00:32:28.000 But it seems like if you have an estimated 375 million interactions with police, if we're having double digits of unjust killings, it's not so much a widespread problem, but just areas where we need to hold people accountable.

00:32:41.000 And I definitely think police are often not held accountable for sure.

00:32:44.000 Which does that warrant millions of people, you know, protesting?

00:32:47.000 Does that warrant, like, changing banners at every single park?

00:32:51.000 Every major corporation adopting these slogans?

00:32:54.000 Does it warrant street paintings with taxpayer dollars and then using police to protect it?

00:32:58.000 Does it warrant those who would commit violent in their name for 140 plus days?

00:33:03.000 And will any of the Democrats call them out?

00:33:05.000 Well, the corporations and the politicians doing all of that is just... I'm trying not to use the term virtue signaling.

00:33:11.000 They're doing it because it makes them mad.

00:33:12.000 Well, that's the thing.

00:33:13.000 But I'm not going to defend corporations who are throwing up like the black iApp icon for 30 days. 1.00

00:33:20.000 Of course, but they're only doing that to appeal to a popular narrative, but I'm not going to defend their virtue.

00:33:24.000 Their CEOs could be racist, they could be not.

00:33:26.000 I don't care.

00:33:27.000 It doesn't matter.

00:33:28.000 They'll do whatever makes them money.

00:33:29.000 When it comes to the protest itself, you have to recognize that the police killings of unarmed black men are very much the tip of an iceberg, even a glacier here.

00:33:39.000 Where that is the most easily and objectively verifiable injustice.

00:33:44.000 Like, George Floyd, I think a lot of people recognize.

00:33:47.000 Not great.

00:33:48.000 Breonna Taylor, likewise.

00:33:49.000 But underneath all of that, those... Do you mean when you say not great, like, those stories were not clear-cut acts of... Like, what do you mean by that?

00:33:58.000 No, I mean that they're very easy things to protest against.

00:34:00.000 Yeah.

00:34:01.000 I disagree.

00:34:02.000 You think that the George Floyd thing was like, people should see that and go like, eh?

00:34:06.000 You know?

00:34:06.000 I think when the George Floyd thing happened, I covered it.

00:34:09.000 Shocked that we had a video of this cop kneeling in the sky for eight minutes.

00:34:12.000 And I think it was like, was it 43 seconds or whatever?

00:34:15.000 That shouldn't have happened.

00:34:16.000 But more information comes out later.

00:34:18.000 So I recognize that protest.

00:34:19.000 I do.

00:34:20.000 But I don't think any info came out that made that any less horrible.

00:34:23.000 That he had fentanyl in his system, a lethal dose of fentanyl, and that when the body camera footage got released, he's actually kicking his way out of the car saying, please hold me on the ground, hold me on the ground.

00:34:33.000 So, I have to push back against this.

00:34:36.000 He would not have died if that knee had not been on his neck.

00:34:40.000 It is.

00:34:40.000 The degree to which fentanyl was in his system is something of a matter of contention.

00:34:45.000 There are people who say there was a lethal amount.

00:34:46.000 There are people who say that it was, while a substantial amount, something that was decreasing or indicative of a previous dose and that his death was directly caused from constriction of his airflow.

00:34:56.000 Well, I am not a doctor.

00:34:58.000 I do think the undisputed sort of decision here is that it was because he was kneeled upon.

00:35:04.000 Did you watch the body camera footage?

00:35:06.000 Yeah, I don't think that changed anything.

00:35:07.000 Where he's saying, hold me on the ground, hold me on the ground, hold me on the ground, three times.

00:35:11.000 Not by his neck, with a knee.

00:35:12.000 Did you see the manual that was released by the police defense showing them training the police to do that?

00:35:17.000 Uh, then I think that's a terrible manual.

00:35:19.000 I agree.

00:35:19.000 And I, and, so what I see with Breonna Taylor and with the George Floyd incident is not massive systemic injustice, but, well actually I'll take that back.

00:35:28.000 I think it's a broken system that needs to be amended.

00:35:30.000 But that's what I'm saying.

00:35:30.000 Not individual acts of, of malice.

00:35:32.000 These are the tips of the iceberg with these two, you know.

00:35:35.000 But if you actually look at the history of black people in this country, and this is what people are fundamentally angry about, because people don't go out and protest because one thing happened.

00:35:42.000 Nobody does that.

00:35:43.000 It's always the accumulation of a large number of unfortunate events.

00:35:46.000 And when you look at black people in this country, if you take a look at average household income, or average like schooling quality in your neighborhood, or the continued presence of redlining, which hasn't changed in 70 years, and all these things building up, and it's actually the product of like this incredibly complicated network of interconnected systems that a lot of which aren't even being managed by racist people.

00:36:06.000 A lot of it is just the system is stacked in a way Here's the issue.

00:36:09.000 I agree.

00:36:09.000 Completely.

00:36:09.000 I did a documentary on blockbusting, redlining, Pruitt-Igoe, St.

00:36:11.000 and black people sure were disadvantaged a while ago and that patterns continued

00:36:14.000 and that's the underlying sentiment and that's i think what people really want

00:36:18.000 to address here here's here's the issue i agree completed a documentary on blockbusting redlining pruitt i

00:36:23.000 go saint louis all that stuff

00:36:25.000 and the issue is race racialized policies and that's not the answer

00:36:31.000 That's not what's going to solve the problem.

00:36:33.000 It's become a class issue because we've removed the racial component legally, but now we have issues of, okay, you changed the law.

00:36:41.000 We made redlining and blockbusting illegal, though it definitely still happens.

00:36:45.000 We've changed those laws.

00:36:46.000 Now how do we address the actual inequality?

00:36:49.000 It's a class-based issue.

00:36:50.000 So what ends up happening now is you get the likes... This is what really bothers me about You create Black Lives Matter, I think it was created from Trayvon Martin, and then people counter with All Lives Matter, which instead of being a unifying thing, becomes an adversarial thing.

00:37:10.000 Then you get All Black Lives Matter, and then you get Blue Lives Matter, I think Blue Lives Matter probably came second, and instead of people saying like, Let's work together to solve all these problems as friends. 0.99

00:37:22.000 We get, my issue is the issue, and you're wrong, and how dare you?

00:37:25.000 And everyone just points the finger at each other saying, how dare you?

00:37:27.000 The issue is that All Lives Matter types don't really have an issue. 0.88

00:37:31.000 They're just counter-protesting Black Lives Matter. 0.64

00:37:33.000 If the All Lives Matter thing was a legitimate effort to try to de-racialize a broader class issue, I think that it would have turned out very differently.

00:37:40.000 We have to be clear, that's not what it was being used for.

00:37:43.000 It was being used to say, like, oh, you say black lives matter.

00:37:45.000 Well, you're implicitly suggesting mine doesn't, so all lives matter.

00:37:48.000 So it's a counteraction.

00:37:49.000 This is the point I'm making.

00:37:50.000 If you have an area, say, like Ferguson, where it's predominantly black, but there are white people who live there, you're cutting out people based on race, and it makes people angry.

00:38:00.000 What policy are you referring to here?

00:38:01.000 I'm just talking about the slogan.

00:38:03.000 So, for me, growing up on the South Side, it was a very mixed race area.

00:38:08.000 You had white people, black people, but there was a segregating line, 47th Street.

00:38:14.000 I watched the cops brutalize everybody.

00:38:16.000 I watched the cops plant drugs on whoever. 0.93

00:38:18.000 I watched white people die of heroin overdoses.

00:38:20.000 Well, I shouldn't say watch, but I've had friends who died of heroin.

00:38:22.000 And so you then start, you know, you start talking about Black Lives Matter because of brutality, and then you're going to get a bunch of poor people. 0.74

00:38:31.000 And of course, there are more poor white people in the United States than poor black people. 0.50

00:38:34.000 I'm not saying proportionally, I'm just saying the hard number. 0.93

00:38:37.000 More white folk, yeah. 0.77

00:38:37.000 Well, so, right, exactly. 0.77

00:38:38.000 So what ends up happening then is you create a movement that tells someone, we are not focused on your problems.

00:38:44.000 We're focused on their problems.

00:38:45.000 And they say, but what about, what about me?

00:38:47.000 Everyone's going to say, what about me?

00:38:48.000 And I think that's a simple solution to addressing all of the problems.

00:38:51.000 This is my thing though.

00:38:52.000 The all lives matter thing was not made up by poor white people who are trying to get, to get that solidarity.

00:38:58.000 It was made up mostly by Republican counter protest.

00:39:01.000 I just, I, the, the all lives matter thing was never made in a, in a good faith effort to try to broaden the net.

00:39:08.000 I think you're in a bubble, man.

00:39:10.000 I really don't think so.

00:39:12.000 I was in Cincinnati.

00:39:13.000 But I can tell you, even if that wasn't the case, though, even if that wasn't the case, even if I were to accept your premise, back in the civil rights protests, the original ones, you know, there was a slogan that was used pretty frequently amongst the black folk marching.

00:39:23.000 It was, am I not a man?

00:39:24.000 You know, am I not a person?

00:39:26.000 And to me, when we're saying like, well, black lives matter, you're leaving out the white people who are poor.

00:39:30.000 This sounds to me like if a woman of that era was to walk up to a man with that sandwich board over his chest and say, well, I'm not a man.

00:39:37.000 What about me?

00:39:38.000 I recognize that the language can seem exclusionary, but if you pull back, you recognize the Black Lives Matter movement is not exclusionary.

00:39:48.000 Even if the language may suggest some sort of exclusionary focus on black people, the people marching out there and the policies proposed by

00:39:56.000 BLM advocates are generally very very progressive when it comes to class-based

00:40:00.000 issues and class-based solutions 0.89

00:40:02.000 and they also protest white folk getting killed by the police or black folk getting 0.99

00:40:06.000 killed by black police. 0.99

00:40:07.000 Your analogy, I don't believe fits what we're talking about right now.

00:40:11.000 If you had black people in the civil rights era saying segregation is wrong, we need equality under the law, and we're also talking about getting rid of miscegenation laws, those were actual laws in place.

00:40:23.000 What we're talking about right now is, are people facing injustice at the hands of police?

00:40:29.000 and are people facing disadvantages in life based on class and wealth issues?

00:40:33.000 The answer is yes, it affects everybody.

00:40:35.000 So why would you choose to exclude somebody?

00:40:38.000 If we go back in time, we're talking about civil rights and a woman went up to,

00:40:41.000 you know, a civil rights activist who was black and said, well, what about me?

00:40:44.000 It's like, I'm actually fighting for something that has nothing to do with you.

00:40:47.000 Whereas today, you do have white people, Latinos, Asians, and everybody who have faced injustice in the hands of cops.

00:40:53.000 I met a black woman. 0.52

00:40:54.000 If a black woman went up and said like, oh, I'm not a man.

00:40:57.000 But, like, with the exclusionary thing, I just, I guess from what I've seen from BLM advocates that protest the movement, and even the organization, which is far to the left of what the general BLM actual marcher believes, I just, I guess I just don't see these exclusionary tendencies.

00:41:12.000 Even if we were to believe there was an exclusionary element here, outside of the mere language of the movement, There are racialized elements of this disparity that can't be solved just with class solutions.

00:41:23.000 It's like if a hundred years ago you put all the black folk in Section A and all the white folk in Section B, and then a hundred years later you're like, oh, I'm really sorry about that. 0.83

00:41:32.000 So anyway, people in Section A make half as much as people in Section B. I'm sorry, that's the law.

00:41:37.000 No race mentioned.

00:41:38.000 What neighborhood are you born in?

00:41:40.000 And the breadlining and the distribution of wealth has reflected a distinct racialized oppression in this country that I think we can solve with race-neutral policies, but we must acknowledge that it exists.

00:41:54.000 But Black Lives Matter isn't advocating for race-neutral policies, they're advocating for racial policies, racialization.

00:42:02.000 For instance, in Seattle, they're doing POC and non-POC separate events.

00:42:06.000 At the University of Michigan, we saw the non-POC and the POC, like literal neo-segregation popping up in response to this movement.

00:42:12.000 I want to be specific about those two.

00:42:13.000 notable thing and shocking thing to me was California's proposition I believe

00:42:18.000 it's prop 16 repeal prop 209 which would strike the civil rights language from

00:42:22.000 their Constitution. I want to be specific about those two so the POC non POC 0.99

00:42:27.000 separate thing this is I don't really think that this is like an official BLM

00:42:33.000 thing that's being pushed for. 0.98

00:42:34.000 I think that's woke crap as well, by the way. 0.94

00:42:37.000 I don't think that... You can make an argument for it, provide a safe space, whatever. 0.98

00:42:41.000 I don't think it does what it's supposed to.

00:42:42.000 But the organizers of Black Lives Matter say these things.

00:42:44.000 Sure, yeah, but when we're talking about, like, what BLM wants, I don't mean, like, these little events or soirees which may have, like, these weird elements that are kind of, like, misappropriated woke culture.

00:42:54.000 What I mean is, like, broadly, how are we fixing this multi-trillion dollar economic gap that we have?

00:42:59.000 And when it comes to the California thing, I'm mixed on this.

00:43:02.000 The reason they're doing that is because the language of their law prevents them from implementing affirmative action the same way other states in this country do.

00:43:12.000 It's just, optically, it looks terrible.

00:43:14.000 Like, wow, you know, a California gone so woke that they're getting rid of civil rights, and it looks terrible, and I recognize that.

00:43:21.000 I don't know if I support it.

00:43:23.000 If it was an affirmative action amendment, as they claim it was, then they would have amended it to add language protecting affirmative action instead of stripping all civil rights from the Constitution.

00:43:33.000 Well, I mean, they still are, they have to adhere, of course, to national law regarding

00:43:38.000 protected licenses.

00:43:39.000 That would require federal intervention.

00:43:40.000 So California is paving the way for internally, so for instance, California legalized medicinal

00:43:45.000 marijuana when it was federally illegal and then complained when the DEA would go in and

00:43:51.000 If California strips away the civil rights language, thanks to unanimous support from Democrats and federal Democrats, then they're going to start implementing racist and racial segregation policies statewide.

00:44:01.000 Like what?

00:44:01.000 and then specific programs saying no to this race and no to that race.

00:44:06.000 I mean if you're talking about affirmative action we can start with that institutional racism outright.

00:44:09.000 Do you think that affirmative action is an inherently wrong thing?

00:44:12.000 I think it's an institutional racism.

00:44:14.000 Sure.

00:44:14.000 Well, do you think it's wrong?

00:44:15.000 Personally, for me, yes.

00:44:17.000 Absolutely.

00:44:18.000 And that's because I come from a mixed-race family.

00:44:21.000 So I've already experienced being a second-class citizen from groups aligned with, whatever you want to call it, intersectionality or whatever.

00:44:29.000 It's not fun.

00:44:31.000 I believe it flies in the face of everything my grandparents fought for in terms of civil rights.

00:44:37.000 They were a mixed-race couple.

00:44:38.000 It was illegal.

00:44:39.000 They faced prison time over this.

00:44:40.000 and they had to flee several states because of it.

00:44:44.000 My mom was born before civil rights and Loving v. Virginia as an illegal person, like wasn't 1.00

00:44:49.000 allowed to exist in this country because of miscegenation laws.

00:44:52.000 They're bringing these things back.

00:44:53.000 I don't think they're bringing back miscegenation laws.

00:44:56.000 No, no, no, no, no.

00:44:57.000 They're bringing back, I'm talking about, they're stripping away the civil rights law.

00:45:01.000 They're bringing back segregation.

00:45:02.000 I really, given the reasons and the multilateral support that this proposition have received, the idea to me that they're removing a specific California set of policies to then become the most racist state in the nation Even though they're equally beholden?

00:45:24.000 Because let's be clear, once California removes these laws, they're going to be at the same point a lot of other states in this country are.

00:45:30.000 Other states in this country also rely on a set of federal protections when it comes to discrimination in workplaces and what have you.

00:45:37.000 California is going to be in equal standing with them.

00:45:38.000 I think we're being really uncharitable when we assume that they're doing this as part of a step one to bring back racism in this country.

00:45:47.000 Well, it is.

00:45:49.000 I mean, well, it depends on whether or not you think affirmative action is something which is already done in a bunch of other states.

00:45:53.000 Yeah, it is racist.

00:45:54.000 Sure, but if that's the case, then let's not pretend that California is, like, backsliding past the civil rights movement.

00:46:00.000 Let's just acknowledge that they're, I guess, awkwardly moving towards the implementation of policies that a bunch of other states already have.

00:46:06.000 I think I'm 50 50 on affirmative action.

00:46:08.000 I think that's like, conceptually, it disgusts me, you know, but on the other hand, like, if you think about it in certain neighborhoods of like, Los Angeles, for example, where I grew up, if you get like, a college admission, or college, yeah, like, application, sorry, from a black person, a white person, you don't know anything about these two people apart from what they send you. 0.52

00:46:28.000 Statistically, the black person has had to work harder because their neighborhoods on average are way worse.

00:46:34.000 Same with worse schooling.

00:46:35.000 This is actually a really good point.

00:46:38.000 It's really funny when we hear... What was this?

00:46:40.000 There was something about they wanted to do blind hiring because they felt like names were... I saw a post on this on Facebook, actually.

00:46:47.000 People were advocating.

00:46:49.000 It was leftists saying, we should get rid of your names and your address and let people choose based on what their merit is and blah blah blah.

00:46:58.000 Well, they didn't say merit, but that was the general idea.

00:47:00.000 You put an application.

00:47:02.000 Their concern is that white culture, or mainstream American culture, favors anglicized names.

00:47:07.000 Therefore, people have a disadvantage.

00:47:09.000 They actually found, there was a study that found the opposite.

00:47:12.000 And it's actually exactly what you said.

00:47:14.000 If you take a person, statistically on average, a white person's more likely to have family wealth, more likely to grow up in a wealthier suburb, less likely to have encounters with police for a variety of reasons.

00:47:27.000 And then they're going to have a resume that says, I went to this school, I went to this school, I went to this college.

00:47:31.000 Whereas people in the black community, Latino community, are going to have less... On average, yeah, because they've had to put up with more historical... And so you end up with a racial disparity.

00:47:41.000 But I don't see how, that being said...

00:47:44.000 I don't see how the solution is affirmative action or racializing.

00:47:48.000 I completely agree.

00:47:50.000 And that's why affirmative action is at best a stopgap.

00:47:52.000 And you could argue maybe it makes the world slightly more fair.

00:47:55.000 I think it makes it worse.

00:47:56.000 Well, you could argue in a consequential sense because personally when I think who deserves to get this spot in a college, who deserves to get that job, I think of how hard they've worked, what effort has been put in, what is the, in a consequential sense, what is the income to outcome there.

00:48:12.000 And affirmative action, in some cases, helps.

00:48:15.000 In some cases, it actually quite hurts people when it comes to that, especially with the treatment of, say, for example, Asian immigrants in Los Angeles, UCLA.

00:48:22.000 The negative affirmative action points they get, because a lot of those students are sent over here from wealthy families in China, and you get this really complicated situation.

00:48:30.000 And ultimately, we can avoid all of this, all of this, and I'd love to avoid all of this, if we just put more effort into addressing the underlying racial disparities in this country.

00:48:41.000 But nobody wants to do that.

00:48:43.000 Which would be?

00:48:46.000 Real anti-redlining policies.

00:48:48.000 And reparations, not on race, it gets messy, but on class.

00:48:52.000 Because if you were poor 100 years ago and white, you had it better than if you were poor 100 years ago and black, for sure. 1.00

00:48:58.000 But there are still issues you can fix across the board, and that way you don't get a lot of really Messy racial politics that might otherwise it felt like what do you do like you test people's blood, you know, exactly Yeah, that gets really really messy, but nobody wants to do this.

00:49:11.000 I mean Republicans Democrats neither of them want to do this How do you feel about oh, sorry interrupt man?

00:49:15.000 How do you about universal basic income?

00:49:17.000 Yeah, I think so as a socialist my one contention is my concern would be that universal basic income would Assist in perpetually commodifying the standards of life.

00:49:29.000 I don't want people to have the money, necessarily, to afford medical care or food.

00:49:34.000 I want those things to just be available to people, with that wealth maybe being divested to, or diverted to, like, luxury goods, that sort of stuff.

00:49:43.000 But I think that, like, right now in this country, this is me, like, picking which two beautiful, delectable fruits I want to eat from a tree.

00:49:49.000 If we could get UBI in this country done properly, like a good UBI, absolutely.

00:49:53.000 And that would go a long way, too, to fixing the situation poor folk are in.

00:49:56.000 So we got two routes to go.

00:49:57.000 I definitely want to talk about UBI, socialism, etc.

00:50:01.000 But I want to make sure, because we were originally talking about Antifa and right-wing violence.

00:50:05.000 So going back to what we were talking about before, with Antifa on the far left, we have people engaged in violence consistently.

00:50:15.000 I mean, I mean, if we look at the death count... But what is death?

00:50:22.000 I mean, death doesn't change the fact that someone gets bashed over the head with a brick.

00:50:25.000 Sure, but I think that generally speaking, if we're looking to quantify the amount of violence done by any given number of groups, the fact that we've had historic racial protests in this country, with Antifa involvement at some of these protests, and I think we have one death, and it was that 100% Antifa guy who was in Portland.

00:50:43.000 Well, you had the security guard who shot the guy in the face.

00:50:45.000 That guy wasn't Antifa.

00:50:47.000 No, no, no, he was just the Bernie bro, but he was there as an unofficial security guard.

00:50:51.000 Sure, but he wasn't operating in the capacity of like a revolutionary protest, or he was there, and I don't know the circumstance of the death, but he wasn't like Black Bloc. 0.91

00:51:00.000 You have that, and...

00:51:02.000 The fact that there's only been so and so much death from these groups, I think, when we're looking at, over the past 10 years, hundreds of deaths from the far-right groups, indicates something.

00:51:11.000 Whether that indicates the far-right group uses more lethal methods, you know, guns opposed to bricks, I'd be willing to bet that, and Tifa don't carry guns for the most part.

00:51:18.000 Except for that one guy.

00:51:19.000 Right, right.

00:51:19.000 Yeah, every once in a while, you know.

00:51:21.000 But when you see a far-right militia group, these people are not carrying flags and bricks.

00:51:25.000 These people carry firearms.

00:51:26.000 But I think that, ultimately, discussions on stochastic violence are distractions from greater systemic violence that I think that we all need to pay a greater level of attention to.

00:51:39.000 I think if you got the left and the right in a room and talked about the opioid crisis in pharmaceutical companies, they're gonna agree.

00:51:45.000 Yeah, I genuinely agree with that.

00:51:47.000 The problem for me is, man, these guys in Michigan, I don't care what you want to call them.

00:51:54.000 Lock them up!

00:51:56.000 They're plotting a kidnapping, whatever it is, they're staking out some governor's house.

00:52:00.000 The courts had already won in Michigan.

00:52:02.000 The legislation ruled, they stripped her powers from her, the courts ruled unconstitutional, and then the AG said, I will not enforce any of her laws, and these guys were plotting for what reason?

00:52:13.000 The system we built, it worked. 0.95

00:52:15.000 And so these guys were nuts. 0.96

00:52:16.000 They got caught. 0.98

00:52:17.000 The FBI staked them out, locked them up.

00:52:19.000 Congratulations.

00:52:20.000 But when we look at Portland, when we look at Seattle, when we look at what happened in Chicago, in the Pacific Northwest, we get, what is it, 140 nights now?

00:52:28.000 That's a bit unfair because it's simmered down quite a bit, but we had a sustained period of about 90 or so days where it was just riot every single night, explosives being thrown.

00:52:38.000 And when these people would get arrested for doing things that were, like, serious, You know, like, you had cops who had, like, burns, cuts, lesions.

00:52:47.000 There were a lot of protesters who did, too.

00:52:49.000 Well, for sure, but I mean, if you're... So, I'll get to that.

00:52:53.000 You have these people getting arrested, and then the DA, Mike Schmidt, says, you're free to go.

00:52:57.000 So it was so bad, the state police said, what's the point of being here if they're getting released as soon as we arrest them?

00:53:02.000 And they left.

00:53:02.000 That's a good question.

00:53:03.000 Well, Trump came in and deputized them, then later deputized the police, and now the feds are dealing with it.

00:53:08.000 So, death is the worst possible outcome.

00:53:12.000 And we have Michael Reinoehl, who killed that Trump supporter, and that is extremely horrifying.

00:53:16.000 And we didn't get mass national press coverage about it.

00:53:20.000 Which instance is this?

00:53:21.000 Michael Reinold, the guy in Portland who said, we got him right here, and then he fired two shots.

00:53:25.000 We don't know if it's horrifying, because he never lived to see trial.

00:53:27.000 He was murked by Trump news.

00:53:30.000 It was definitely horrifying, and it was definitely horrifying that he got killed.

00:53:33.000 Death is horrifying, but I mean, we didn't even get to see a trial there.

00:53:36.000 You're right.

00:53:37.000 And that's something that the right doesn't really experience, by the way, too.

00:53:41.000 Like Fort Hood, for example, you treat these people with kid gloves.

00:53:44.000 But that guy, That guy outside the house, apparently, according to a bunch of eyewitness testimony and the conflicting narratives of the police who were there, he didn't draw a gun.

00:53:53.000 They just saw him.

00:53:54.000 Well, I'll tell you this.

00:53:55.000 There's conflicting witness statements.

00:53:58.000 But only with minor variations, the vast majority affirm that the cop's story isn't true.

00:54:04.000 That he did not draw a gun.

00:54:06.000 I read that there was a witness who said they saw him drawing.

00:54:09.000 But I'll tell you what, it doesn't matter.

00:54:10.000 You know why?

00:54:11.000 Cause uh, even if we have witnesses saying he did and he didn't, Trump said twice.

00:54:17.000 Oh, he was at a rally.

00:54:18.000 He goes, they knew who he was.

00:54:19.000 It took him 15 minutes.

00:54:20.000 They didn't want to arrest him.

00:54:22.000 And then the other time he said it was retribution.

00:54:24.000 And that's, that's meh.

00:54:26.000 That's messed up.

00:54:26.000 I'm trying to avoid swearing.

00:54:27.000 I saw you tweet that, by the way. 0.99

00:54:29.000 The president claiming that we should just get retribution and go kill people? 0.98

00:54:34.000 No.

00:54:35.000 We want that guy on trial so we can hear everything about him and make sure we know who he is, we know what he's doing, we know why he's doing it.

00:54:41.000 To me it shows, to an extent, fear as well.

00:54:44.000 If you are confident in your case, legally speaking, you want them to stand trial because a trial is a years-long prolonged shaming Of them and everything they represent.

00:54:53.000 Whereas them being murdered, martyrized, the only reason you wouldn't want that is if you were concerned that a trial would bring out information or would be inconvenient to you in some way.

00:55:02.000 That's why, look, I think I'm not a big fan of trusting the government, but we got a couple statements and it just seems like inconclusive.

00:55:12.000 I'm not inherently going to distrust the cops who are there.

00:55:14.000 I'm not inherently going to trust them either.

00:55:16.000 Inconclusive is the best you can ever get when it comes to conflicting witness testimonies.

00:55:20.000 So, to my point, just because sometimes one group of extremists kills people doesn't mean we ignore the other group of extremists.

00:55:30.000 Oh, I'm not arguing that.

00:55:31.000 Though I will defend a lot of the protest violence that's been taking place.

00:55:36.000 I know, and this is contended among a lot of conservative circles, but I think an economist recently estimated that the damage done to the black community in this country could be monetarily represented by a figure of like 14 trillion.

00:55:47.000 And that's one estimate, of course.

00:55:48.000 But it's just political.

00:55:50.000 I mean, how do you actually estimate this stuff?

00:55:51.000 Well, of course, you know, there are different methods and methodologies.

00:55:54.000 I'm not an economist.

00:55:55.000 I can't fact check him.

00:55:56.000 I know there are lower estimates as well.

00:55:58.000 But we know this, you know.

00:56:00.000 In the United States of America, for the longest time, the western reaches of this country, they didn't have roads, and they didn't have electricity, and they didn't have phone lines.

00:56:07.000 And through an enormous expenditure of federal wealth, we put effort into bringing that infrastructure westward.

00:56:14.000 Because the investment brings about more educated people, encourages the development of more land, which allows for more people to live there, which means more money.

00:56:22.000 And we're facing now the same issue, albeit in a much more sophisticated way, with a lot of poor communities in this country, a lot of which are black or Latino, where we now know these communities are black holes of wealth. 1.00

00:56:35.000 People will make fun of this.

00:56:36.000 Like, why give money to the schools?

00:56:38.000 It's a black hole.

00:56:38.000 We could invest.

00:56:39.000 We could prevent that from being a problem. 0.97

00:56:41.000 But there are more poor white people than poor black people.

00:56:43.000 Sure, and we should invest, absolutely.

00:56:44.000 But there are specific elements of black poverty To be fair, I think you already said reparations on class, not race anyway.

00:56:52.000 So, yeah, I get it.

00:56:53.000 There are some elements that are heavily racialized.

00:56:55.000 There are studies, for example, about the criminal justice system that are non-sensationalized, like just flat out the likelihood of given charges or what your sentence will be, even if every other factor is accounted for, just race is left.

00:57:07.000 And then you have things like implicit bias.

00:57:08.000 But those things are cultural shifts.

00:57:11.000 I don't think we can fix that with law.

00:57:12.000 I certainly don't want there to be like a federal mandate, all judges must give black 1.00

00:57:17.000 men 10 percent lower sentences to compensate for the racism we assume they have.

00:57:22.000 But when it comes to non-cultural issues like that, the deficit we see in these black communities,

00:57:28.000 this is something worth protesting.

00:57:30.000 And I think for a lot of people, people who grew up there, this is something worth fighting

00:57:33.000 for.

00:57:34.000 I don't think it's good to drive a car through cops.

00:57:37.000 I don't think it's good to hurt police officers.

00:57:39.000 But I recognize that riots and violence at protests just seem to be an inevitable product of great civil strife.

00:57:45.000 And to me, the solution to this would be to say, what can we do to alleviate that strife?

00:57:50.000 Arrest people as needed along the way.

00:57:52.000 But giving them what they want just justifies their tactics.

00:57:55.000 Well, what do they want?

00:57:57.000 Honestly, I don't know.

00:57:57.000 I mean, Black Lives Matter on their website, they want to disrupt the nuclear family.

00:58:02.000 They did remove it.

00:58:03.000 Healthy food, man.

00:58:04.000 It's a class war being subsidized by the sugar industry and the drug industry.

00:58:09.000 Dude, we're talking specifically about what the protesters are asking for.

00:58:12.000 They want healthy lives.

00:58:12.000 No, they don't.

00:58:14.000 Dude, chill.

00:58:14.000 Do you know?

00:58:15.000 Yes.

00:58:16.000 What have they asked for specifically?

00:58:18.000 The movement or the specific organization?

00:58:22.000 Because they tend to operate kind of at arm's length.

00:58:24.000 There's no cohesive ask.

00:58:26.000 Well, that's always the way- I mean, you were at Occupy Wall Street, you know there's- But there were a few general asks Occupy Wall Street had.

00:58:33.000 And it was a lot of leftist stuff, like healthcare, transit, schools.

00:58:37.000 But that was a big problem with Occupy, for sure.

00:58:40.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:58:41.000 Well, we have- I mean, there are fairly specific requests.

00:58:43.000 We do have, of course, police reform, which I think is best represented in its most moderate form.

00:58:48.000 by Joe Biden's policies.

00:58:49.000 I think what's it called?

00:58:51.000 I'm actually blanking right now.

00:58:52.000 It's like eight main policies that have been scientifically proven to improve police.

00:58:56.000 Well, there's a name for it.

00:58:58.000 Yeah, there's like, I don't know.

00:58:59.000 Yeah.

00:58:59.000 Well, whatever the case is, that's great.

00:59:00.000 That's fine.

00:59:01.000 But then you have other things like reinvestment back in the community.

00:59:04.000 That's what defund the police is mostly about terrible slogan optics wise, mind you, but Here's where I disagree.

00:59:08.000 I think if people aren't motivated to serve their own communities, I don't think any amount of money is going to change that.

00:59:12.000 And I think it actually could make a bigger problem.

00:59:14.000 and education or people forget about this, waste management, you know. These parts of these cities

00:59:19.000 are absolutely filthy. It means nobody wants to go outside, travel to businesses, or work outside,

00:59:24.000 which means that it's rough. Here's where I disagree. I think if people aren't motivated

00:59:29.000 to serve their own communities, I don't think any amount of money is going to change that.

00:59:32.000 And I think it actually could make a bigger problem. So we had, are you familiar with Scott

00:59:36.000 Pressler? You'll have to bonk me on the head. 0.99

00:59:40.000 He's this Trump supporting guy who goes around cleaning up. 0.98

00:59:44.000 That's about it.

00:59:44.000 He cleans up.

00:59:45.000 That's awesome.

00:59:46.000 He went to LA.

00:59:46.000 He went to Baltimore.

00:59:47.000 Literally cleaning?

00:59:48.000 Literally cleaning.

00:59:50.000 He brings a bunch of Trump supporters come out and they'll just start cleaning things up.

00:59:54.000 He actually got smeared in the media for this.

00:59:56.000 They said his real motivations were to help Trump or whatever.

01:00:00.000 Okay, you know like carry on cleaning up.

01:00:02.000 Do you think there's an element of that that could be true under certain conditions?

01:00:06.000 Like what if just hypothetically?

01:00:07.000 I'm just curious before you go on like what if it had been like he'd go to black communities.

01:00:12.000 That's what he's doing, right?

01:00:12.000 And he'd clean up.

01:00:13.000 He'd be like, see how easy it is, you know?

01:00:15.000 And he'd clean up and he'd get like the picture, you know, and and to me and to me it would it would feel almost like a more patronizing, you know, like when the white evangelicals go to Africa to help build one house over three months or something like that.

01:00:26.000 I actually think... I'm just asking.

01:00:28.000 I don't know the circumstance.

01:00:29.000 I'm just curious.

01:00:30.000 I don't think so, but I think you absolutely could make that argument, and you could make the exact same argument for the fact that Black Lives Matter is overwhelmingly white.

01:00:38.000 To have a bunch of white people claiming they're representing the minorities.

01:00:42.000 There's one viral video where it's like two white Antifa women are spray-painting, and two black women are yelling at them to stop, and they're like, no, we're doing this for you.

01:00:50.000 I don't defend that.

01:00:51.000 But the white participation at these rallies, I think, is a good thing. 0.99

01:00:54.000 I think it supports my argument that, broadly speaking, this is a fight for a sort of plurality of social justice rather than a hyper-specific race war.

01:01:01.000 But it's not popular.

01:01:03.000 So the general movement has, right now, according to Civics in the polling, 48% approval.

01:01:08.000 Then you've got 39% opposition and then 11% like unaffiliated.

01:01:13.000 That's the civics numbers.

01:01:14.000 That's better than the Civil Rights Movement was at the time.

01:01:17.000 So Black Lives Matter as a general movement, when you don't get into the specifics, you don't talk about the protests, regular people just say, oh, I like that idea.

01:01:25.000 But 48%, so it's not a majority.

01:01:27.000 It was after George Floyd, but they lost ridiculous amount of support after the riots heated up. But

01:01:33.000 to be fair, and again, I just, as a person who's very critical of the narratives media

01:01:38.000 tries to push to us, how much of this is because the movement functionally changed and how much of

01:01:42.000 it is because of the hyper-targeted media coverage of all the violence to the exclusion of, again,

01:01:50.000 for every person who dies at a BLM protest, a hundred black people die of COVID, a hundred black people

01:01:55.000 die of malnutrition or of gang violence or of other issues that can be fixed through the

01:01:59.000 systemic solutions that Black Lives Matter people tend to support. I, I...

01:02:03.000 I agree with you. 1.00

01:02:04.000 I think the media is garbage in this country. 0.96

01:02:06.000 And I think it's an issue of human behaviors and the incentives of the media machine as it exists. 0.99

01:02:11.000 That's capitalism, baby.

01:02:12.000 I got a socialism pill you can have on.

01:02:14.000 No, no, no.

01:02:14.000 I was talking to some Trump supporters a couple years ago, and I said, I'm for a mixed economy.

01:02:19.000 I want regulation on these companies.

01:02:21.000 And it was three guys, they were Trump supporters, they were like, we think that's wrong.

01:02:24.000 And I said, I do not believe in coercive force, physical force, and manipulative force to make people do things.

01:02:32.000 And they asked me what I meant by manipulative force, and I was like, tricking people.

01:02:36.000 Fraud.

01:02:36.000 And they were like, no, no, no, no.

01:02:38.000 If you convince someone to exchange something for whatever, that's their choice, and I was like, I'm talking about the media lying to everybody all the time, and they're allowed to do it.

01:02:47.000 So the problem is, I believe in free speech.

01:02:49.000 They're allowed to do it.

01:02:50.000 That's what it is.

01:02:51.000 I just don't think it's ethical, the way our media machines function like this, and I don't think there's a way to solve for that problem, because you can't put someone in charge of what's acceptable speech.

01:03:01.000 Of course.

01:03:02.000 You end up with media machines designed to make people go crazy.

01:03:07.000 And I gotta be fair, I think there's criticism you can point towards me for that, absolutely, because I have my personal biases and the things I don't like.

01:03:14.000 And I think if you look at... This is why I'm actually okay with YouTubers.

01:03:18.000 Like, whether you're left, right, or whatever.

01:03:19.000 Like, you for instance.

01:03:20.000 You're a socialist YouTuber.

01:03:23.000 We clearly have disagreements.

01:03:24.000 But you're one dude. 0.97

01:03:26.000 By all means, make all the videos you want saying, you know, Trump is awful and, you know, all the Republicans.

01:03:32.000 And I'll talk about what I don't like, and I don't like, you know, intersectionality and Democrats, the current iteration of the Democrats, for sure.

01:03:39.000 I want to talk to you about that intersectionality thing, by the way.

01:03:41.000 For sure.

01:03:42.000 When we get to that, of course.

01:03:43.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:03:44.000 I think YouTube creates a space where individuals will be like, here's my world as I see it, here are the things I have problems with.

01:03:50.000 The thing about these companies is that they editorially choose to hyper-target and ignore things.

01:03:57.000 So, to go back to your point, They'll never talk about the opioid crisis.

01:04:02.000 I mean, they will, like, a little bit.

01:04:03.000 But they're not gonna be like, today, another X amount of people.

01:04:06.000 It's just whenever it's convenient and shocking and politically advantageous for, like, an election cycle, for instance.

01:04:11.000 So, to basically say, yes, the media is trash, I think when it comes to what we saw with the riots, they kept calling it peaceful and they kept making excuses for everything. 0.90

01:04:20.000 Well, some did. 0.95

01:04:22.000 There's that very highly publicized clip of the guy saying, despite some fires, mostly peaceful.

01:04:28.000 So that, I will say, absolutely hilarious.

01:04:32.000 Not great.

01:04:33.000 I don't know if that's representative of the general coverage.

01:04:35.000 I do think, for example, that a lot of it was necessary to push back on the narrative that cities were burning.

01:04:39.000 I hear this phrase all the time.

01:04:41.000 Portland burning, Seattle burning, nothing's burning.

01:04:43.000 One or two buildings in a block sporadically once in a week.

01:04:46.000 That's not good.

01:04:47.000 No semantics.

01:04:48.000 Of course, but when you use the term... You know, hyperbole.

01:04:50.000 But there is a reason why that hyperbole is employed, and it's not just a rhetorical flourish.

01:04:54.000 It's to give the person the impression that these cities are actually collapsing, which is of course not true.

01:04:59.000 I've been to Portland.

01:05:00.000 But have you seen all these small towns that had those problems that are struggling to recover because the rot?

01:05:05.000 Like, when you have a small town, Michael Tracy traveled to these places, journalist, he went around to a bunch of small towns that people didn't care about or know about because they're not going to get national coverage.

01:05:16.000 And they had widespread lootings and were putting things on their doors like, we support Black Lives Matter, please don't hurt us.

01:05:21.000 Yeah, I think that's terrible.

01:05:23.000 But their recovery is, like, it's not going to happen.

01:05:25.000 Because they're a small town, that money doesn't exist.

01:05:28.000 Right, but I mean, there is nothing I would propose that wouldn't try to solve that.

01:05:32.000 I mean the death of small-town America has been one of the greatest like demographic crises that we've done.

01:05:37.000 We don't even care about small-town America anymore in anything other than a folksy aphorism we can use to drum up voters.

01:05:44.000 When it comes to actual investment, we don't do anything about these communities.

01:05:48.000 And the way our businesses consolidate makes it easier and easier for everyone to just live in big cities.

01:05:53.000 I live in a big city.

01:05:53.000 I like living in a big city.

01:05:55.000 I would like it if people could choose between that or more rural life.

01:05:58.000 Without knowing they will have fewer opportunities in the latter, or at least severely hampered opportunities.

01:06:04.000 But with regards to that, like the, we support BLM, please don't, you know, loot us.

01:06:09.000 Looting's illegal.

01:06:10.000 I'm not defending looting, or I don't think most BLM people are defending looting. 0.99

01:06:14.000 You just said, you know, there's a book called In Defense of Looting, and I think it was the new, was it the New Republic?

01:06:19.000 Did Biden write it?

01:06:20.000 It was written by a trans activist, Black Lives Matter, and this is coming from an article that may have been... I don't think it's the New Republic.

01:06:31.000 All stems from where I started getting more upset with this level of activism, because I've been covering civil unrest.

01:06:37.000 But that's not broadly representative, you know?

01:06:39.000 You said it yourself, those two black women trying to keep the two white people from spray painting. 0.99

01:06:44.000 When I see videos of these protests, one of the first things they teach you, if you protest consistently, and I used to protest more, before I decided I hated going outside and that I didn't

01:06:52.000 like being, you know, sunburned, was that you want to minimize

01:06:57.000 negative engagement with the community that you're in. Looting, arson, tagging, these things, the definition of negatively

01:07:04.000 affecting the community. But they defend it. Well, who...

01:07:07.000 Because people keep saying they defended a book or a columnist.

01:07:10.000 Activists.

01:07:11.000 Sure, some activists.

01:07:12.000 Media calling it peaceful over and over again.

01:07:14.000 Most of the protests were peaceful, though, like a vast majority of them.

01:07:18.000 But what does that mean, most?

01:07:19.000 That's the joke we make, mostly peaceful.

01:07:21.000 Ninety-seven percent?

01:07:23.000 Ninety-three?

01:07:24.000 Ninety-three.

01:07:25.000 And that's a tricky statistic, too, because at seven percent of all the BLM rallies, there was violence.

01:07:30.000 Who started that violence?

01:07:31.000 You're based in Cophield, I know.

01:07:34.000 You know cops will regularly initiate violence against protesters, either by putting one of their own amongst their rank, throwing a rock, and then using it as justification, or by just starting themselves.

01:07:44.000 We have plenty of video and data-based evidence to defend that.

01:07:47.000 But that's not enough to indict the officers in specific places.

01:07:50.000 No, no, no.

01:07:50.000 But I'm just saying, only 7% of these protests had violence, but we don't know how much of that was actually protester-initiated violence.

01:07:57.000 And even of those that were, how much was like one or two guys?

01:08:00.000 We don't know.

01:08:01.000 Most of these protests were peaceful.

01:08:03.000 The data on that is very clear.

01:08:05.000 But that's fine.

01:08:07.000 We're arguing over margins.

01:08:09.000 So if that's the case, why is it so difficult for anyone to come out and be like, screw those guys.

01:08:15.000 I don't think it is.

01:08:15.000 I see that all the time amongst the left.

01:08:17.000 Usually you have these hyper woke 18 year olds who have never been to a protest in their life who will say, Yeah, you're showing the system!

01:08:23.000 No.

01:08:24.000 And there was more of that at the very beginning with Minneapolis because people were very angry right after George Floyd. 0.97

01:08:30.000 You know, that leads people to make perhaps dumb decisions.

01:08:32.000 But in terms of the broader movement, and I guess we don't have data because we're talking about people's perceptions, I don't think people are all out here defending, rioting, looting.

01:08:41.000 What they are saying is hyperfixating on those things is a distraction from the real issues the protests are about.

01:08:47.000 So, I've had many discussions with people, and I'm sure people in the audience who are watching can absolutely understand this.

01:08:55.000 How many conversations have you had where someone says, it's righteous anger, or you don't understand their anger?

01:09:02.000 I recently had a conversation with someone where I was talking about, they said something like, if you are against Antifa, that means you are pro-fa, which means you're pro-fascist.

01:09:12.000 And my response was, if I don't like, say, Islamophobes, does that make me pro-Islam?

01:09:19.000 And they were like, yes.

01:09:20.000 I'm like, no it doesn't.

01:09:21.000 It means I don't like it when you go and beat random people.

01:09:24.000 So if you've got people wearing masks going around, look, I can't go out.

01:09:28.000 There's a viral video of, there's like a black dude, and this InfoWars reporter is like, come with me to this line of Trump people coming to a Trump rally.

01:09:37.000 And he was like, oh, okay, I guess, you know, I was kind of worried.

01:09:40.000 And everyone there is like, he says, I don't, I don't like Trump.

01:09:42.000 I'm not a big fan.

01:09:43.000 They're like, hey man, that's cool.

01:09:44.000 No problem.

01:09:45.000 Shook his hand, gave him hugs.

01:09:46.000 Some ladies were like, oh, that's fine. 1.00

01:09:47.000 We just love that you're here talking to us.

01:09:49.000 Gave him a kiss on the cheek.

01:09:50.000 And this guy's like, man, I get more of those.

01:09:52.000 I'm going to come hang out here.

01:09:53.000 This is great.

01:09:54.000 And then she goes, now let's go over to the protest side.

01:09:57.000 And they start screaming vile, disgusting insults. 0.98

01:10:00.000 And the guy's face just drops like- A random black guy? 0.82

01:10:03.000 It was so I don't know the exact context of who this guy was, but he was talking to a reporter from InfoWars.

01:10:08.000 Well, they might have been screaming at the- They're screaming at the InfoWars lady. 1.00

01:10:11.000 Oh, okay.

01:10:12.000 Yeah, that's totally fine.

01:10:13.000 Yeah, there's nothing wrong with being black.

01:10:15.000 There is something wrong with being an InfoWars reporter.

01:10:16.000 So I'm fine with the respective levels.

01:10:18.000 The point I'm bringing out is this vile hatred exists, like, overwhelmingly.

01:10:22.000 That's fine.

01:10:24.000 Shouting at people you don't like is fine. 1.00

01:10:26.000 No, but I'm just giving that as an example to talk about if I were to go out right now to a Trump rally, there's gonna be a lot of people who are gonna, if I said, I don't like Trump, that's fine.

01:10:37.000 In fact, I called Trump a very disparaging term on Twitter laughing about it, and I've done it like 10 times in the past two weeks.

01:10:44.000 And people are just like, I disagree with you, Tim, but I respect that you're giving us your thoughts on this one and you're treating the news seriously.

01:10:51.000 If I... I went out in 20... I think it was 2017 or 2018.

01:10:54.000 I think it was 2017.

01:10:56.000 It was in Berkeley.

01:10:57.000 Antifa was posting pictures of my mom, like, and me, and threatening me, and I went to a skate park, minding my own business, and I had guys come to me and start threatening me for no reason!

01:11:06.000 So, I can't defend all these individual... Obviously, I think going after people's family members is unconscionable, regardless of the people you're targeting, you know?

01:11:14.000 I mean, these are very spread out.

01:11:16.000 The broad argument that I'm making is I genuinely do believe that the sentiment behind Black Lives Matter is about the things they're protesting for, and not the defense of the most violent, extreme, hyperbolized actions that take place in a movement that tens of millions have participated in.

01:11:35.000 Two billion dollars in damages.

01:11:37.000 I mean, and that was just the insurance cap.

01:11:39.000 Yeah.

01:11:40.000 So beyond that, it's way more.

01:11:42.000 But what do you want to do about it?

01:11:43.000 Condemn it, call it out and say stop.

01:11:45.000 But people, but I guess I mean, I'm in some pretty far left circles.

01:11:49.000 I think that when I what I remember is this after George Floyd and after the Minneapolis riots, there were a lot of people who were very gung ho about the rioting.

01:11:59.000 And just a couple of weeks later, I remember there was a livestream segment from a far right, I don't know if it was a YouTuber, Twitch streamer, I think he was a neo-Nazi, the chat on screen had a lot of wacky stuff in it, and he was there at a BLM protest, and he was saying, hey, hey you guys, can you flip that truck?

01:12:16.000 And he was trying to get other people to flip, and the people who were there, who were BLM protesters, all turned on him, they were like, No.

01:12:23.000 Absolutely not.

01:12:25.000 And they started trying to chase him out.

01:12:26.000 The guy ran away and chat was like, oh, gotta run.

01:12:28.000 And when I saw that clip, that made its way around the Twitter, the YouTubes, and people were celebrating it because the goal of protests should always be to affect positive change.

01:12:38.000 And you aren't going to affect positive change with the looting, the burning, the rioting.

01:12:41.000 Those things do happen, but an over-fixation can be detrimental to the actual message being made by the vast majority.

01:12:48.000 There's a video of some guy with a hammer and he's smashing up the sidewalk and pulling bricks.

01:12:53.000 Have you seen this?

01:12:54.000 They run up, they grab the guy, and they throw him to the cops.

01:12:57.000 And then the cops grab two guys, and one of the guys was actually helping, and then they cut the good guy out, and they arrest the guy who was vandalizing the street.

01:13:05.000 So I definitely praise that.

01:13:06.000 By all means, peaceful protest is the foundation of this country.

01:13:10.000 We have the First Amendment right to do so, and it's amazing when we do.

01:13:13.000 Violent protest is the foundation of this country.

01:13:16.000 Technically, but when we told the Crown, the American colonists, stop oppressing us, stop sleeping in our homes, stop murdering our people, And they didn't live here, they were from, you know, like, you had people who were born and raised in the colonies, and what did they say?

01:13:34.000 They said, we're severing ties from you.

01:13:36.000 So what did the Crown do?

01:13:37.000 They sent the regulars to the states, and then we said, F off. 0.73

01:13:41.000 So it's a bit different than a bunch of people showing up, you know, an extreme minority of a community that is at odds with what the community wants, burning it down, getting defended by the press, and then just only getting like, well, let's not focus on the extremists.

01:13:53.000 I think that's a really sensationalized narrative, because we are focusing on the extremes here.

01:13:59.000 So we have to remember, we're focusing on a very slim minority, probably exclusively, you know, stuff that's going on in New York, Portland.

01:14:04.000 There are cities, of course, that have greater levels of agitation just based on the demographic.

01:14:08.000 No, no, no, no.

01:14:08.000 But there are actions like that that take place otherwise, but when we talk about persistent media coverage, you know, Say Portland, for example, you know?

01:14:16.000 I would be willing to bet that, for the most part, the people in the city of Portland are largely behind what goes on there, for the most part.

01:14:25.000 But even if they are not, I still just... I guess I just don't understand why this is as much of a talking point as it should be.

01:14:31.000 Like, if we want to fix this... I think you should check out... We don't have it, but Michael Tracy drove to small towns that never made the press.

01:14:40.000 I talked with Michael Tracy.

01:14:41.000 I was very critical of him for his work in that bit.

01:14:45.000 He went to all these small towns and showed that the riots reached places that didn't make the news.

01:14:50.000 Let me tell you, I have family members who live 60 miles outside of Chicago, and for some reason, Black Lives Matter activists showed up to these towns of a couple thousand people, demanded that the mayors allow them to march, and when they did, they started trashing the place. 0.98

01:15:05.000 This is directly from a family member of mine saying, I don't understand why this is happening.

01:15:09.000 We're a small, sleepy suburb, 60 miles outside of the city, And then here's the issue.

01:15:15.000 In Minneapolis, you keep hearing things like they have insurance.

01:15:19.000 And we've heard that from prominent activists in Black Lives Matter.

01:15:21.000 They have insurance.

01:15:23.000 They don't.

01:15:24.000 So in Minneapolis, for example, there were several stories covered by the Star Tribune that insurance only covers up to $25,000 for hauling away debris, which the cost of hauling away totally demolished buildings was five times that, which meant they just said goodbye and they walked away.

01:15:38.000 The business never to come back.

01:15:39.000 Well, you won't find me defending insurance companies.

01:15:41.000 Well, for sure, but the issue is... But what do you want to do about it?

01:15:45.000 So, what I'm looking for specifically is the prosecutors in Chicago, New York, Fort Worth, Seattle, and Portland to actually start prosecuting these people.

01:15:54.000 I have heard many accusations.

01:15:57.000 I have not seen many claims to indicate, or I have not seen much evidence to indicate that there are legitimately people just being let out.

01:16:04.000 What often happens is that police will gather up big batches of people that are even associated with an area surrounding a crime that took place, and then because there isn't enough evidence to find out which one of them actually did it, the whole group of them gets let go.

01:16:16.000 There's a video- But that's due process, right?

01:16:18.000 There's a video of a guy fighting with cops and grabbing his baton.

01:16:22.000 It's something Andy No posted, I know a lot of people on the left don't like him.

01:16:25.000 It's a guy fighting with the cops, he grabs their baton, a bunch of cops grab him, throw him to the ground, he got cut loose.

01:16:30.000 Okay.

01:16:30.000 I don't know any of the circumstances.

01:16:32.000 But again, why are we arguing about individual statistics when we're talking about a civilization-wide problem in a country with a population of a third of a billion?

01:16:40.000 I'm okay with Black Lives Matter, rioters, or Antifa, or whatever, have done damage. 0.97

01:16:45.000 This is bad.

01:16:46.000 This is bad.

01:16:46.000 I'm totally okay with that.

01:16:47.000 But when people say this, they don't stop there.

01:16:50.000 They then go on to say, and this is why I don't support Black Lives Matter.

01:16:52.000 And that's the association I can't abide.

01:16:55.000 Because if you do care about fixing these problems, you should care about addressing the underlying sociological disparities that have created them.

01:17:01.000 This wasn't created by far-left DAs who are letting them get off easy.

01:17:07.000 This was all created by class and race-based issues, and it's going to boil up again in 5 or 10 or 15 years if we don't do something about it.

01:17:14.000 It's an inevitable product of historic inequality.

01:17:17.000 And if you want to condemn those people, I have no issue with that.

01:17:20.000 It's not just about that.

01:17:22.000 When?

01:17:22.000 What do we do to stop it when we have district attorneys and county attorneys being elected

01:17:28.000 That will let these people go but now we have actual stories where people who would defend their property are

01:17:34.000 the ones getting charged Right. We're seeing this when?

01:17:37.000 The mccloskeys they brandish illegally on their own private property legally in missouri. I am so I am 1.00

01:17:43.000 Not familiar with missouri specific law Are you telling me that brandishing firearms at people without provocation is okay as long as you're on your property?

01:17:52.000 According to the Attorney General of Missouri, yes.

01:17:55.000 So it's not for me.

01:17:56.000 Look, you can say the Attorney General is wrong and biased and all that stuff, but they're being charged with felonies.

01:18:02.000 Now they're being charged with evidence tampering because they claimed And it was reported that the government, the prosecutor, actually took the gun and dismantled it and reassembled it and then accused them of tampering.

01:18:13.000 I can't speak to the specificity of these claims.

01:18:15.000 I don't know if this borders on conspiracy, but I'd have to look more into it.

01:18:19.000 If they're innocent, the courts will find in their favor.

01:18:21.000 They are very wealthy.

01:18:22.000 I have no doubt they're going to get a good lawyer.

01:18:24.000 Well, they're good lawyers, I guess, themselves.

01:18:26.000 Oh, right, true.

01:18:26.000 I shouldn't say they're good lawyers.

01:18:27.000 I should say they're wealthy lawyers.

01:18:29.000 Well, yeah, they can't represent themselves, of course.

01:18:33.000 So I guess the issue is we have widespread writing, it's consistent, and it's sustained.

01:18:39.000 Not as sustained as the systemic biases they're fighting against, though.

01:18:44.000 But what systemic biases?

01:18:46.000 I mean, all the stuff regarding class and race that has led to these conditions boiling up here.

01:18:50.000 I guess it really just is a matter of like, what do you think the solution to this is?

01:18:54.000 Class.

01:18:55.000 Class-based.

01:18:55.000 Right, but is it like arresting a given number of people and replacing some left-leaning DAs?

01:18:59.000 Or is it like a, we fix this, like from the ground up, you know?

01:19:03.000 I think the first thing that needs to happen is acknowledgement and condemnation, which is what we're not getting from the media.

01:19:09.000 I think we have.

01:19:10.000 But they're just saying peaceful protests over and over again with the flames behind them.

01:19:15.000 But you're doing it now.

01:19:16.000 You're like, well, there was one.

01:19:18.000 For the most part, the protests are peaceful.

01:19:19.000 So calling them peaceful protests is an accurate and factually verifiable description.

01:19:24.000 I went through this today.

01:19:26.000 They were calling what happened in Philadelphia demonstrations.

01:19:30.000 Every outlet I read was like, demonstrations took place and a pickup truck rammed a cop, knocking her to the ground and breaking her leg. 0.99

01:19:35.000 I think you've got to acknowledge CNN's crap. 0.99

01:19:37.000 But wait, weren't they demonstrations? 1.00

01:19:39.000 MSNBC's junk. 0.88

01:19:41.000 When people are going around smashing windows and stealing things from all these stores, That's not a demonstration. 0.99

01:19:47.000 They were calling that a demonstration.

01:19:51.000 The media doesn't say rioters.

01:19:53.000 They don't ever call it a riot.

01:19:55.000 I mean, conservative outlets will.

01:19:56.000 I know for a fact that's not true. I've seen even liberal or neutral outlets that have referred to these as riots.

01:20:01.000 Sometimes, perhaps.

01:20:03.000 I'll say this. I don't think either of us have an example, but I'm willing to concede, yes, absolutely.

01:20:09.000 But I'm just being hyperbolic in that for the most part, they overwhelmingly say demonstration.

01:20:13.000 And every time I read one of these stories, I'm like, dude throwing a brick at the head of a cop is not a demonstrator

01:20:20.000 or a protester.

01:20:20.000 Here's where I have to turn this on you, okay?

01:20:23.000 So I assume you and I have similar goals when it comes to race-based justice.

01:20:28.000 You don't like redlining.

01:20:30.000 Good.

01:20:30.000 I'm glad we don't have to argue on that.

01:20:32.000 But you seem very concerned about the inaccuracies in the way that the left-leaning media has covered this.

01:20:39.000 And I've seen this on your channel, too.

01:20:41.000 Many videos pertaining to that general trend.

01:20:44.000 I see none of it with regards to how the right miscovers these.

01:20:48.000 How many views does the right get?

01:20:50.000 Views?

01:20:50.000 Like, how big is right-wing media versus left-wing media?

01:20:53.000 The right wing, at least on YouTube, the right wing media is absolutely larger.

01:20:56.000 Have you looked at the actual data on that?

01:20:58.000 Yeah.

01:20:59.000 I mean, if you, if you, I mean, it depends on, um, it depends on what your metric is

01:21:03.000 for left leaning.

01:21:04.000 There are some like, uh, like neutral leaning, like I don't consider CNN to be left by any

01:21:09.000 metric for example.

01:21:10.000 They're anti-Trump and he, and Cuomo, uh, Cuomo specifically said since when do protests

01:21:15.000 have to be peaceful?

01:21:16.000 I think that, well, that's a true statement.

01:21:18.000 There are many non-peaceful.

01:21:19.000 So I mean, that's definitely left.

01:21:20.000 No, there have been plenty of non-peaceful protests.

01:21:21.000 some of them led by right-leaning people in the history of this country.

01:21:23.000 Protest does not inherently mean peaceful.

01:21:26.000 The point I'm making there is that he's clearly on the side of the unrest.

01:21:30.000 I don't think being anti-Trump makes you left-leaning.

01:21:34.000 I think that just makes you a fan of human decency and life on this planet.

01:21:37.000 In terms of how the media covers what's going on, CNN's on clearly one side.

01:21:42.000 I think that CNN is, at best, neutral.

01:21:46.000 They are absolutely not on my side.

01:21:48.000 But when it comes to this, again, you have an enormous media platform.

01:21:51.000 We have people like the President of the United States.

01:21:53.000 Saying that black lives matter people they aren't American. 1.00

01:21:56.000 They hate America. They want to destroy it This is up to the presidency of the United States right-leaning 0.99

01:22:01.000 media You think the left-leaning media has been inaccurate in

01:22:03.000 their coverage of these issues. The right-leaning media is Insane when it comes to talking about Bush

01:22:09.000 But who and what?

01:22:11.000 So I really wanted to ask you, one of the things that you mentioned was that you did not like Michael Tracy's coverage of these small cities.

01:22:17.000 And I kind of wanted to loop back a little bit because we are still talking about riots, and we're going to go to super chats, maybe eventually.

01:22:22.000 And I wanted to ask, what was your issue with Michael Tracy's coverage?

01:22:25.000 And why did you think that he was unfair in his representation of talking about these small towns?

01:22:29.000 I think we have a really bad issue, especially with commentary on YouTube, of people who will try to amass a series of descriptive positions and then use them to imply a prescriptive one without actually ever making that argument.

01:22:42.000 So for example, if your argument is that Black Lives Matter That's so interesting.

01:22:47.000 Why?

01:22:47.000 to damage in some small communities or that Black Lives Matter has increased the propensity

01:22:52.000 of COVID-19 spread, which seems to not be true.

01:22:55.000 Those are descriptive claims that you can make, but you're not making the prescriptive

01:22:58.000 claim, which is that BLM is bad.

01:23:00.000 The problem that I had with Michael Tracy is it seems like he wanted to do everything

01:23:03.000 possible to supply the right wing with arguments that would support their idea that BLM is

01:23:07.000 bad without actually making the case himself, just making sort of hodgepodge descriptive

01:23:11.000 claims to support it.

01:23:12.000 Why?

01:23:13.000 Why would he do that?

01:23:14.000 The right is on the outs.

01:23:15.000 Breitbart is flagged, deranked, banned.

01:23:18.000 Their live stream of a congressional press conference was removed immediately from YouTube.

01:23:25.000 I would consider you far right, and you have 110 million views.

01:23:28.000 Far right?

01:23:29.000 Oh yeah, the actual... I like talking to you, don't get me wrong.

01:23:33.000 The actual stuff that you do on your channel, though, is hyper-partisan, like almost conspiracy bait.

01:23:38.000 Like what?

01:23:38.000 Like there was the clip you did where you said that if Joe Biden wins, they're going to rewrite all the definitions in your dictionary.

01:23:44.000 People are going to come to your house with fireworks and guns.

01:23:47.000 It's all going to be over.

01:23:48.000 Those things have already happened.

01:23:50.000 First of all, bad things have happened to people on the left and the right.

01:23:53.000 Second of all, this has nothing to do with Biden winning.

01:23:55.000 This all happened under Trump, under protest that Trump has exacerbated with his poor response.

01:23:59.000 And third of all, don't you think it's a little bit disingenuous of you to imply that just because something has happened at some point in this country, that means that it's the product of an upcoming presidential election?

01:24:08.000 Like, at some point over the past four years, you know, there's probably been like a sewer explosion in somebody's toilet in an apartment.

01:24:14.000 But if I said, if Trump wins again, there will be toilets exploding in your home, I feel like it would be a disingenuous presentation.

01:24:19.000 Do you think Joe Biden would reinstate critical race theory trainings at the government level?

01:24:23.000 I think that your opposition... Before Trump banned it, I guess.

01:24:26.000 I think your opposition to it is one of the most anti-free speech positions that you have.

01:24:31.000 Possibly the most, yeah.

01:24:33.000 So, you're getting off on this one.

01:24:36.000 We gotta go back to the initial claim you made and where I'm going with this.

01:24:39.000 Sure.

01:24:39.000 When I said that if Biden wins, and I don't know the exact quote that you're referring to, they're changing the definitions, which they've already been doing.

01:24:49.000 Definitions have changed dramatically to the point where Wikipedia makes no sense anymore.

01:24:52.000 Wait, it makes perfect sense, and definitions change all the time.

01:24:56.000 If you go to Wikipedia right now, and I brought this up before, and look up the word woman, it has nothing to do with the word trans woman, and they both disagree with each other on reality.

01:25:05.000 It's a Wikipedia article.

01:25:06.000 What does that have to do with Biden?

01:25:07.000 That happened under Trump or Obama.

01:25:08.000 What does that have to do with Biden?

01:25:10.000 The point is, you have Donald Trump, who just recently banned critical race theory, and any company that does critical race theory trainings is banned from contracting with the government, and it's actually reversing this.

01:25:21.000 Well, that's fantastic.

01:25:22.000 Critical race theory is neo-segregationist.

01:25:25.000 Wait, can you describe to me what critical race theory is?

01:25:28.000 So in layman's terms, I don't have the academic definition pulled up for you, but specifically like privilege plus power, whiteness, minorities, traits of whiteness would be specifically like hard work, scheduling.

01:25:44.000 I'll tell you this, the tenets of critical race theory, though I've definitely done segments on the overt academic definition of it, I don't have it pulled up.

01:25:52.000 But when they put out a list that says whiteness, they say things like, down with whiteness.

01:25:58.000 Traits of whiteness include schedules, hard work, planning for the future, 2.5 kids, and all of those things. 0.59

01:26:03.000 You're just listing the one Smithsonian Museum pamphlet that was passed out and largely criticized.

01:26:09.000 Critical race theory.

01:26:10.000 Criticized by who?

01:26:11.000 It was it was in the Smithsonian for decades.

01:26:13.000 That specific pamphlet, no, it was not.

01:26:15.000 This pamphlet you're referring to right now, I know because I covered on my stream and made fun of it as well.

01:26:19.000 No, it was made specifically probably some new in student or somebody who was in their 20s made it got taken away almost immediately afterwards following bad reception to pretend that this is indicative of an entire academic theories.

01:26:30.000 Very silly.

01:26:31.000 I learned critical race theory in sociology. 0.98

01:26:33.000 That was my major.

01:26:34.000 It's very, very simple.

01:26:36.000 Critical race theory is just the racialized element of critical theory.

01:26:38.000 That is to say, you analyze racial relations based on distinctive power relationships between different groups.

01:26:44.000 So how about instead, I guess, the application of?

01:26:47.000 That's probably the best way to put it.

01:26:49.000 There is something terrifyingly despotic about banning the teaching of a certain idea because it leads people to conclusions that are unfavorable to the President of the United States of America.

01:27:00.000 But I think you're now ascribing an assumption on the intent.

01:27:04.000 What I'm saying is... Why is it good that it's banned then?

01:27:08.000 Well, so the first assumption you made was you know exactly why Trump did it and made him look bad.

01:27:13.000 I think, actually, Trump doesn't know anything about it.

01:27:15.000 No, Trump specifically said that it promoted anti-American values, which is the same tinpot dictator excuse that every authoritarian is ever given for their excuse to... And so the context here is that Christopher Ruffo appeared on, I think, Tucker Carlson and said that, and then Trump just parroted it and didn't actually know what he was talking about.

01:27:30.000 So when it came to the debate, he had no idea what he was talking about.

01:27:32.000 He's the president.

01:27:32.000 I'm going to hold him accountable for his language.

01:27:34.000 Sure, sure.

01:27:34.000 Yeah, Trump didn't know what he was talking about, for sure.

01:27:36.000 Yeah, but he said that.

01:27:39.000 So we have now the emergence of an ideology that is targeting specific races.

01:27:46.000 It's not an ideology.

01:27:47.000 It's just a mode of academic analysis.

01:27:49.000 Critical race theory is just, I guess, a broad term.

01:27:53.000 This is the challenge I always get whenever I have conversations about this.

01:27:55.000 It's broad because it's been made broad so you have something to criticize.

01:27:59.000 So whatever happens is when I say something like, hey, I think these things are bad, I get semantic arguments about, well, then define it.

01:28:05.000 What is this?

01:28:06.000 You have to prove what the specific academic... What I'm telling you is, when they say things like, I worked for Fusion, for example, and the editor-in-chief changes Twitter by a down with whiteness, like overtly racist.

01:28:17.000 They use it to justify racial segregation, neo-segregation.

01:28:20.000 I have seen protests...

01:28:22.000 By claiming that racism is only privilege plus power?

01:28:26.000 That's an academic argument, though.

01:28:27.000 I've only heard that from non-academics.

01:28:29.000 Right, so what I'm saying is you have a colloquial understanding of what's happening versus you demanding I make a specific definition and then attack it, which is not a fair argument.

01:28:38.000 The colloquial understanding you have is as much an ideological mishmash as the anti-SJW compilations of 2015.

01:28:45.000 That's not an argument.

01:28:46.000 argument. What are you talking about? The argument that I'm making is that the

01:28:49.000 president of the United States is trying to engage in a modern form of book

01:28:53.000 burning and that is what this is by the way taking certain forms of knowledge

01:28:56.000 and removing them from the public discourse certainly with regards to

01:28:59.000 federal funding he is doing this and the reason he is doing this as for his

01:29:03.000 public comments are because they lead people to become un-American.

01:29:07.000 The trainings are a violation of Title 7 of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

01:29:13.000 You can't tell people that there are certain races that are inherently good or bad, but that's what the trainings were doing.

01:29:19.000 That's what the trainings were doing.

01:29:21.000 Wait, wait, wait.

01:29:23.000 What federal trainings were saying that certain races are good or bad?

01:29:27.000 Let's pull up Christopher Rufo. He's got a huge list of it.

01:29:28.000 This is what happened.

01:29:29.000 Christopher Rufo went on Tucker Carlson, gave a list of all these things that were happening, Trump saw it, reacted, didn't know what he was talking about.

01:29:35.000 But do we have information outside of Christopher Rufo's testimony?

01:29:38.000 We have the articles and the documents and everything, all the research he's done.

01:29:41.000 So, look, this is just one individual I'm citing right now. 0.97

01:29:44.000 This is like, white people are bad, black people are good? 1.00

01:29:48.000 No, we have down with whiteness, we have Racism can only be—only white people can be racist. 0.99

01:29:54.000 Racism is privilege plus power.

01:29:56.000 We have these components that make up some mishmash of intersectionality, leftist identitarianism, critical race theory, which form a nightmarish ideology.

01:30:05.000 And it's very, very simple, actually, when Trump bans this.

01:30:07.000 It's a violation of Title—I believe Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act to do trainings where you say, white people this, white people that.

01:30:15.000 And why did it—wait.

01:30:17.000 So Trump is actually just enforcing existing law when he says you can't do this?

01:30:20.000 Those policies aren't against the law.

01:30:22.000 The critical race theory is nothing more than a tool that helps us understand the reason why things are the way they are in this country when it comes to people's racial divides.

01:30:31.000 The application of this tool is completely ideologically neutral.

01:30:35.000 You can arrive at right-leaning conclusions through it.

01:30:38.000 The only reason this is being discussed now is because it is being used as an academic scapegoat for the ideology that has led to Black Lives Matter.

01:30:46.000 I think, I think the issue is, you haven't, you haven't read any of this.

01:30:49.000 Absolutely.

01:30:50.000 So I have, we have Christopher Ruffo.

01:30:52.000 The Treasury Department held a training session telling employees that quote, virtually all white people contribute to racism and demanding that white staff members struggle to own their racism and accept their, this is Christopher Ruffo's cited research on, where did this happen?

01:31:07.000 So this is the Treasury Department.

01:31:09.000 We also have the National Credit Union Administration, Sandia National Laboratories, Argonne National Laboratories, the Department of Homeland Security, and the FBI all cited, and these are overt violations of Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

01:31:20.000 So all of those departments said that exact thing?

01:31:23.000 So, National Credit Union Administration says they held a session for 8,900 employees arguing that America was founded on racism and built on the backs of people who are enslaved.

01:31:31.000 How is that false?

01:31:33.000 Founded on racism?

01:31:34.000 Absolutely.

01:31:35.000 Well, that's an ideological position.

01:31:36.000 I don't think we should have that in government.

01:31:39.000 Wait, all government training involves ideological positions.

01:31:41.000 Even the understanding that our Constitution is the founding document of the land is an ideological disposition, a bias that we adhere to.

01:31:48.000 So, yeah, absolutely.

01:31:49.000 We founded a constitution that said all are created equal.

01:31:52.000 We had black slaves. 0.98

01:31:52.000 Yeah, of course it's kind of... We murdered a bunch of natives. 0.98

01:31:58.000 To be fair, we'll say the National Credit Administration.

01:32:00.000 That one's more of an opinion than I think actually is based on history.

01:32:03.000 I could agree with.

01:32:03.000 We definitely built this country off of Racism.

01:32:05.000 off of slaves and racism definitely racism for sure it was only we only got

01:32:09.000 the nineteen sixty civil rights act in sixty four sandy a national laboratories which produces our nuclear 0.69

01:32:14.000 arsenal held a three-day reeducation camp for white males teaching them

01:32:18.000 how to deconstruct their white male culture and forcing them to write letters 0.97

01:32:21.000 of apology to women and people of color whistleblowers from inside the

01:32:25.000 labs tell me that critical race theory is now endangering our national

01:32:28.000 security how's that endangering our national consensus

01:32:31.000 Regardless of whether that opinion is correct, holding camps for white males is a violation of the civil rights act.

01:32:36.000 Sure.

01:32:36.000 What does this have to do with critical race theory, though?

01:32:39.000 So, what I'm saying is, when I say things like critical race theory, I'm referring to one particular component that's used in these trainings that are being banned.

01:32:48.000 The point I'm making is, there's a general understanding of what's happening in this country, and every time I bring this up to someone on the left, they use a semantic or academic argument to confuse the situation.

01:32:56.000 Because he's banning it, even so far as to go to universities and funding for them.

01:33:01.000 This is a tremendous violation of our First Amendment rights.

01:33:08.000 You have to understand that when it comes to, listen, I'm not defending white male training, whatever, okay? 0.99

01:33:13.000 Crap. 0.85

01:33:13.000 We're talking about you would need to meet the highest conceivable threshold of harm done to this country for me to even begin to believe it's acceptable for a president to unilaterally decide that a given type of academic analysis is no longer something that they will be permitting. 0.85

01:33:30.000 This is, like, it is insane to me that a person who considers themselves anti-authoritarian could ever even begin to to condone this.

01:33:40.000 If there are problems with those individual things, and I have no doubt, by the way, corporations have been doing cringe, cringey, terrible diversity training for decades now, So hold on.

01:33:50.000 I agree.

01:33:51.000 with men and sexual harassment. They've done it with like tolerance and everything like that.

01:33:54.000 They've done it with LGBTQ people. They're doing it with this. That's always been going on. But

01:33:58.000 there are ways to address that that don't involve this. And even if there weren't, this is way worse.

01:34:05.000 So hold on. I agree. I think the issue is that Trump doesn't know what he's talking about.

01:34:11.000 And I think he saw a Fox News segment and then was just like, oh, we got to ban all this.

01:34:15.000 When asked about it, he couldn't actually tell people.

01:34:17.000 That's terrifying.

01:34:19.000 It is.

01:34:19.000 Well, terrifying.

01:34:21.000 I wouldn't say terrifying.

01:34:23.000 This guy is the nuclear arm codes.

01:34:24.000 He's going to do unilateral executive action which restrict the First Amendment rights of federal institutions because he heard it from the like.

01:34:32.000 This is I can't.

01:34:33.000 Well, so look, I think the degree to which we find Trump's lack of knowledge on this and his overbearing action.

01:34:40.000 That's where we're disagreeing, I guess.

01:34:42.000 My issue is... This is a First Amendment violation.

01:34:45.000 I mean, it's just... You consider yourself to be... No, no, no, no, no, no.

01:34:48.000 Hold on, hold on.

01:34:49.000 The government should ban violations of the Civil Rights Act.

01:34:53.000 And that was the issue at play.

01:34:58.000 Did Trump, you know, blanket banning critical race theory?

01:35:01.000 I guess it depends on what the actual executive order is, and to what extent critical race theory is banned, but insofar as it pertains to the training specified by Christopher Rufo, then brought up by Trump, that should be banned.

01:35:11.000 This is how it's always done, though.

01:35:13.000 And by the way, I know everyone loves the bring up Godwin's Law, this is how it was done in Nazi Germany, too. 0.66

01:35:18.000 When book burning started to take place, they didn't just say, let's burn everything progressive.

01:35:23.000 They would say, this specific ideology is But you're not arguing the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

01:35:29.000 Wait, wait, wait.

01:35:30.000 So in either case, there's a quote that I'm wonderfully fond of, and it's, if one considers himself a defender of human freedom, he must regrettably spend his time defending scoundrels, because it is against scoundrels which authoritarianism is first aimed, and if it is to be stopped, it must be stopped at its beginning.

01:35:50.000 When it even came to Nazi Germany, I understand this is a hyperbolic argument, I'm just using it because it's a clear-cut example.

01:35:55.000 When it came to the types of literature they decided to burn, they didn't just say, oh, everything progressive, anti-racist, everything Jewish, let's burn that.

01:36:01.000 They would say, oh, well this, this is child abuse, but it was everything research about gay people. 0.79

01:36:06.000 And if you use very specific problems to defend the dissolution of information on a broader topic, you're participating in authoritarian apology.

01:36:18.000 So yes, but I think you're talking about something else.

01:36:22.000 So, we can break this down.

01:36:24.000 First, if Trump went so far as to ban universities teaching critical race theory, then that's a serious, serious problem.

01:36:31.000 I've seen people complain, there was like a, I can't remember what it was, I think it was West Point, did a class on like queer theory, and people complained about it, and I'm like, why are you complaining about a class on something?

01:36:42.000 If people want to go and learn about it, they should learn about it and they go to university for it.

01:36:46.000 The actions being taken that I have issue with, that I can only specifically cite, was Trump saying these specific trainings violate the law.

01:36:54.000 Now, I think it's fair to say Trump didn't know what he was talking about.

01:36:56.000 That's easy.

01:36:57.000 He couldn't even answer on the debate stage, and a lot of people complained about that.

01:37:01.000 But if they violated the law, he wouldn't need to create any new laws to get rid of them.

01:37:04.000 He didn't.

01:37:05.000 It was an executive order.

01:37:06.000 Well, an executive order is a function of the law, no?

01:37:08.000 So it's the president saying, do this.

01:37:10.000 It sounds like critical race theory.

01:37:12.000 It's enforceable. 0.72

01:37:12.000 They took critical race theory and used it as an excuse to create ridiculously racist functions. 0.72

01:37:18.000 And then they're just, so instead of Trump saying, hey, get rid of those functions, don't do that again, he's getting rid of the theory that was used.

01:37:24.000 No, no, no, no.

01:37:25.000 That's what it sounds like.

01:37:26.000 So that part of the argument is well beyond what we're actually talking about.

01:37:29.000 That's why I'm saying if Trump went so far and that we'd have to pull up, I would agree with you.

01:37:34.000 Trump should not ban knowledge or theory.

01:37:36.000 But if Trump is saying the government is engaging in trainings that teach this thing to employees, and those things are violations of Title VII, we can't legally do those things.

01:37:47.000 Is the idea that white people are inherently racist a critical race theory idea?

01:37:53.000 I think that most critical race theorists would argue that everybody carries with them racial biases, whether you're black or white. 0.97

01:37:59.000 I think any academic who would say that only white people carry with them internalized biases is absolutely ridiculous. 0.82

01:38:05.000 Well, we used to talk about, we have comfort biases. 0.61

01:38:08.000 So whatever you're comfortable with is what you're, if you're not familiar, like familiarity biases.

01:38:13.000 So if a white person was born in a black neighborhood, they'd be familiar with the black people and not the white people.

01:38:19.000 White people, by the way, who are born in inner city, kind of like black areas, tend to develop the same cultural affectations as black people when it comes to relationships with the police or other institutions like that.

01:38:29.000 It's not about white people bad, black people good, or anything like that.

01:38:33.000 Even though some of these sessions, I've seen them, some of them seem horribly cringey and ham-fisted attempts by managers to try to fit some sort of nouveau standard of,

01:38:43.000 you know, woke training.

01:38:44.000 The fundamental idea here, at least for most critical race theorists I imagine, is just

01:38:48.000 simply we have to recognize these biases are inside of us, not just race, any type of inclination.

01:38:53.000 The thing about race is...

01:38:56.000 What you're saying about everyone has some kind of racist inclination...

01:39:00.000 I completely agree with.

01:39:02.000 I think people... So I learned this when I did fundraising for non-profits.

01:39:07.000 Anyone who's capable of teaching you sales or fundraising will tell you, absolutely, people trust and like those who are just like them.

01:39:14.000 And do so. So hold on. So that means when you approach someone wearing a suit, you try to act like someone wearing

01:39:20.000 a suit.

01:39:20.000 And that means there's a racial component to that, that if people see something familiar, you look like they do, they're

01:39:26.000 more likely to be favorable.

01:39:28.000 However, for what it's worth, I'm not going to pretend like Wikipedia is a fantastic source.

01:39:33.000 I'm just not capable of pulling up the actual article which goes back to 1999 from Harris, 1993, Ladson-Billing's Critical Race Theory, which views white skin that some Americans possess as akin to owning a piece of property.

01:39:48.000 In that, it grants privileges to the owner that a renter, in this case a person of color, would not be afforded. 0.90

01:39:53.000 Cheryl L. Harris and Gloria Ladson Billings describe this notion of whiteness as property, whereby whiteness is the ultimate property that whites alone can possess.

01:40:01.000 Valuable just like property, the property functions of whiteness, rights to disposition, rights to use and enjoyment, reputation and status property, and the absolute right to exclude, make the American dream more likely and attainable for whites as citizens. 0.98

01:40:14.000 Yes, that would violate Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act if you told people that in a government setting.

01:40:19.000 I genuinely don't believe it would.

01:40:21.000 That's just a flourish, purple prose way of saying that white privilege exists.

01:40:25.000 And while they may have phrased it there in a very alliterative way, I think everything there is perfectly defensible.

01:40:30.000 If someone made a stereotypical statement about black people in a government setting, would that violate their civil rights?

01:40:34.000 It's not a stereotypical statement in a way that infers racism.

01:40:37.000 It's just a discussion of privilege.

01:40:39.000 That's your opinion.

01:40:40.000 Wait, do you think it's a violation of the law in a sort of diversity training class to say that white privilege exists?

01:40:48.000 Yeah, well, in this context, it would be yes.

01:40:50.000 I genuinely don't think that is the case.

01:40:53.000 I mean, there is a big difference between treating people differently based off their race and recognizing that society treats people differently based off their race.

01:41:00.000 You can't discriminate on the basis of race.

01:41:02.000 But you're not by telling them.

01:41:03.000 But the thing is, races are different genetically.

01:41:05.000 So going into a training and telling people that one race is inherently privileged over another Would be racist.

01:41:11.000 But race... I don't... I just... I just have to... Listen, listen, listen.

01:41:14.000 Yeah, go for it.

01:41:15.000 Your argument about white privilege, the problem I have with it is, first of all, I recognize the concept of a majority privilege.

01:41:20.000 In the United States, there is a dominant, a much larger portion of white people than any other race, thus creating a familiarity bias that we mentioned.

01:41:29.000 This is something... I'm not trying to say that everything I'm saying is what Brett Weinstein believes, but Brett Weinstein has talked about things like this.

01:41:36.000 If you go to China, for instance, there's no white privilege.

01:41:40.000 There's none.

01:41:40.000 You're an outsider.

01:41:41.000 In fact, you know, when I go to a country like Korea, they're extremely ethno-nationalist, and they think they're better than everyone else in the world. 0.95

01:41:48.000 You could treat it better if there was a white person than a black person, though. 0.97

01:41:51.000 You ever go to Japan? 0.98

01:41:51.000 But that's just racism. 0.98

01:41:53.000 Yes, I have.

01:41:53.000 Well, that's privilege.

01:41:54.000 And so people having racist views is for sure you can call it a privilege, but you can't

01:42:02.000 under the law discriminate against one race.

01:42:04.000 That's not discrimination.

01:42:05.000 The problem I have with this ideology is that what's the difference between saying that and say Jewish privilege?

01:42:10.000 Well, the difference would be that the Jewish privilege thing is incorrect, I imagine.

01:42:16.000 Have you done research on it?

01:42:17.000 Yeah, I certainly have.

01:42:18.000 I argue with a lot of neo-Nazis on my channel.

01:42:19.000 Vox.com.

01:42:21.000 Vox.com wrote this, actually arguing you're wrong, and it was a professor who made the same argument, and it was the weirdest thing I ever read.

01:42:29.000 And when I quoted it, a bunch of leftists tried ascribing that quote to me.

01:42:33.000 The problem I have with it is I've heard the exact same thing about white privilege to Asian privilege.

01:42:38.000 And I've been told that Asians are the true bearers of privilege. 1.00

01:42:42.000 Then you get books like In Defense of Looting that straight up say that Jews and their opinion, and Asians, again, their opinion, represent capital. 0.94

01:42:53.000 I can't believe you would say that of your own opinion, Tim.

01:42:55.000 What?

01:42:56.000 But you know I have to do that.

01:42:59.000 Of course, of course.

01:43:01.000 Listen, first of all, it's not just a majority bias.

01:43:04.000 A country which, by the way, has a very pernicious history of white supremacy and white privilege is Bolivia, a country recently that had a socialist victory in an election.

01:43:12.000 Two-thirds of that country is indigenous.

01:43:14.000 The one-third that is white has historically held a great deal of power because of course they are the descendants from the conquistadors who came over there and just just made a mess of things and they've held power for for centuries since. 1.00

01:43:27.000 So I just I need to listen.

01:43:29.000 If we are to defer to legal arguments, I am not a lawyer.

01:43:32.000 I am of the utmost confidence that saying that there is white privilege in this country does not violate any discrimination practices with regards to federal training or employment.

01:43:42.000 I think it is a very true and very real thing that people should know.

01:43:45.000 Not because white people should feel ashamed.

01:43:47.000 I have never once, for a moment in my life, Apologize to anyone for being white or for a man or being a dashing six foot two.

01:43:54.000 I think it's just a piece of information that is helpful to contextualize other pieces of information.

01:43:59.000 So I disagree on racializing it, but I will say this.

01:44:03.000 If we agree on that point, Then it sounds like what Trump did isn't terrifying, in fact, would just be a matter for the courts.

01:44:11.000 So, if Trump wants to say, this is illegal because I believe it is and you believe it isn't, then the real issue is not despotism, the real issue is, okay, you file your lawsuit, it'll go to the courts, we'll interpret, determine whether or not it is a violation of Title VII.

01:44:24.000 No, I can't accept that.

01:44:26.000 Because, first of all, if it's already illegal, then they should be able to file court cases just based on the evidence they already have.

01:44:31.000 They wouldn't need an executive order to give them the additional justification.

01:44:35.000 Additionally, when he talks about critical race theory, when Trump, when the Republicans, whatever, They aren't talking about this very narrow set of cringey diversity training practices.

01:44:46.000 They're talking about a broad ideology that is infesting and de-Americanizing people to make them hate whiteness, to hate this country, to hate their race, whatever.

01:44:55.000 And these things, frankly, we should call them what they are, blatant authoritarian

01:45:00.000 fear mongering.

01:45:01.000 And when we kowtow to it by saying, okay, well, we'll let the courts deal with it.

01:45:05.000 Okay, well, in some cases, maybe the worst iteration of these diversity training things

01:45:09.000 could conceivably be a violation of that law.

01:45:11.000 We are abetting authoritarianism.

01:45:13.000 And that is something I can't allow.

01:45:14.000 I would rather a country where these policies continue, and some are terrible, and we slowly

01:45:20.000 change them via process of existing law, than one where the president of the United States

01:45:24.000 of America, apparently operating on poor information, unilaterally decides to just shut it all down.

01:45:29.000 That is a very dangerous precedent.

01:45:31.000 But this is within the confines of our existing government, what the President has the authority to do, and there are means of rectifying it if it is a violation of the law.

01:45:38.000 Yeah, sure, but that doesn't mean it's not authoritarian.

01:45:39.000 Yeah, it's some bad authority with the Patriot Act and stuff.

01:45:43.000 Just because he has the authority doesn't mean it's right.

01:45:45.000 No, no, no.

01:45:45.000 It means that we have a system that, for one, is imperfect, but it's good in the sense that if Trump does something, he gets sued all the time and he's lost several times.

01:45:55.000 And in my opinion, I do not like the idea that there would be a government program, a government training program, telling people that whiteness is inherently this, that, or I wonder what's white.

01:46:05.000 Like, are you white?

01:46:06.000 You're Asian. 0.99

01:46:07.000 So are you white?

01:46:08.000 I'm not even white.

01:46:09.000 My skin's not white.

01:46:10.000 I'm like pink.

01:46:10.000 I'm voting Biden.

01:46:11.000 I'm going to be black in a couple of days. 1.00

01:46:13.000 There is no black human. 1.00

01:46:14.000 No white human. 0.98

01:46:15.000 Let's get that out of the way. 0.94

01:46:16.000 There's shades.

01:46:16.000 No human has that color.

01:46:18.000 Those are shades.

01:46:19.000 We use them improperly, those words.

01:46:21.000 But people will have biases based on what other people look like.

01:46:24.000 And so the problem I have is your ideology inherently turns me into a second-class citizen.

01:46:29.000 Wait, how?

01:46:30.000 Because I have been to these places where they tell me I'm not welcome in either space.

01:46:35.000 I've been told that I both simultaneously have white privilege and don't.

01:46:38.000 And as long as I agree with them, they're willing to grant me certain access.

01:46:42.000 I would never abet that.

01:46:45.000 I know you wouldn't, but this is what's happening in practice.

01:46:49.000 I have personally met many white nationalist authoritarians, but I can't say just by way of you existing, voting for Trump, aligning with them in that respect, that your ideas are exactly their ideas.

01:47:00.000 No, they hate me.

01:47:01.000 They insult me and they use racist terms for what I am.

01:47:03.000 Well, it really depends on how- And so that's why I hate identitarianism, be it from them or the left.

01:47:08.000 But I'm not engaging- But I'll tell you this, the white nationalists aren't putting policies in place.

01:47:12.000 Neither are we.

01:47:13.000 Trump removed that policy.

01:47:15.000 No, first of all, we're not talking about policy.

01:47:17.000 We're talking about the individual practices of individual government departments that maybe are worthy of criticism.

01:47:22.000 Again, I haven't gone to these, and I have very perfect reasons to distrust sometimes right-leaning media's portrayal of these events.

01:47:28.000 But even saying everything there, cringey as it seems, these are not, this is not identitarianism.

01:47:33.000 These are, at worst, poor ways of describing the concept of white privilege, which I think is a perfectly defensible concept. 0.99

01:47:39.000 You can believe in white privilege, you can believe in Asian privilege, that bears no, absolutely nothing, on your character as an individual, and anybody who would use these concepts as a hammer To dismiss you?

01:47:52.000 Or to say your ideas aren't worthwhile? 0.95

01:47:54.000 To me, I think that's disgusting.

01:47:55.000 And in fact, you know what?

01:47:57.000 I'll be bipartisan on this, okay?

01:47:58.000 Because I get this sometimes on the left.

01:48:00.000 There are people who will say, you can't have that opinion.

01:48:02.000 You're white. 0.95

01:48:03.000 What are you talking about? 0.88

01:48:04.000 You can't.

01:48:04.000 You're a man, you know?

01:48:06.000 By way of your privilege, and I acknowledge I have privilege, your ideas on this aren't worthwhile. 1.00

01:48:10.000 And I say to that, as I always have, idiotic! 0.99

01:48:13.000 Ideas are valuable, people are valuable, by their own merits and none else. 1.00

01:48:17.000 When we talk about concepts like privilege, we're talking about lofty statistical biases.

01:48:23.000 Some black people will literally live their entire lives without really meaningfully getting racially discriminated against, and some white people will get frequently uh, uh, um, messed up because they're white. It's all about 0.94

01:48:35.000 averages and statistics. And anybody who uses that as an individual condemnation, I have

01:48:39.000 to tell you, this is not anything that I support. And I don't think it's representative of

01:48:43.000 critical race theory.

01:48:44.000 The problem is, when you try to address the problem from racial standpoints, you create

01:48:49.000 the circumstances in which the individual will be oppressed.

01:48:52.000 How?

01:48:53.000 So if you create a platform, a training program that says, and I know you said it wasn't,

01:48:57.000 you didn't like it. When you take, you know, 8,900 white males or whatever, and you know

01:49:02.000 you, I think that was actually a different circumstance, but when you bring white males

01:49:05.000 to a special training camp to tell them to address their privilege,

01:49:09.000 Those people are having their rights violated based on, if you want to call it a distorted or corrupted view of whatever the theory actually is, then it's being used to oppress individuals.

01:49:22.000 It's like corporations, you know, like corporations.

01:49:24.000 Let me give you an example.

01:49:26.000 I worked for Fusion.

01:49:27.000 They had a presidential forum.

01:49:29.000 They told me I looked too white to participate.

01:49:33.000 What should I do?

01:49:34.000 Uh, well, I, um... In what capacity were you there?

01:49:40.000 So I worked for this company as a senior correspondent and they were doing a presidential forum where they were going to be asking questions of presidential candidates.

01:49:46.000 And I went to the president and I said, I'm just wondering why I wasn't notified as a senior correspondent and somebody who's supposed to be hosting things for you.

01:49:54.000 And they said, they brought in someone else who was black. 0.93

01:49:57.000 And he said, well, he's like, you're too white.

01:50:01.000 And I was like, I'm second generation mixed race.

01:50:04.000 I was like, I've dealt with violence and racism.

01:50:07.000 And he was like, yeah, but come on, man.

01:50:09.000 He's like, look, man, these people are extremely racist, you know, so you can't, you can't do it.

01:50:13.000 I think we're... Wait, I just want to say, I mean, you know, I'm not going to come in favor of that, but that has nothing to do with critical race theory.

01:50:19.000 That is corporate PR 101.

01:50:21.000 They do the same thing with their commercials.

01:50:23.000 They'll be like, eh, you're a little bit too ethnic. 1.00

01:50:25.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:50:26.000 But I have to say, that has, again, nothing to do with critical race theory.

01:50:29.000 Often the people who are making these decisions are people who are, let me tell you, quite in need of understanding critical race theory.

01:50:34.000 If according to long-standing critical race theorists, whiteness as a skin color is something you can hold that grants you access and reputation and privilege, and it is a component of critical race theory.

01:50:46.000 It's because we're blending class. 0.99

01:50:47.000 Being applied by people who, I think to be fair, we can say people who are dumb.

01:50:52.000 But if people are taking these ideologies and saying whiteness is a special thing that applies to your skin color and negates who you are, in the fact that an individual will then be oppressed or denied rights, it's a violation of civil rights law. 0.85

01:51:04.000 The way it comes off to me, I mean, I can't speak to these individually, again, regardless of how bad they are.

01:51:09.000 I will say, though, they, I mean, you've heard of the book White Fragility, I assume?

01:51:12.000 This is a big popular, leftists hate this book.

01:51:15.000 We hate this book.

01:51:16.000 Because the person who wrote it is, if I may, A cynical corporate sellout whose primary interest is, as a diversity trainer, encouraging other corporations to get more diversity training.

01:51:30.000 Diversity training doesn't work.

01:51:31.000 It doesn't actually work that well.

01:51:33.000 Maybe you get some marginal benefits, but in terms of the money invested, it turns out that if a person has racial biases, sitting them in a one-week seminar is not going to do anything about it.

01:51:42.000 Who knew?

01:51:43.000 So, with that being said, when I hear about these government industries, I don't think these are being done by far-left critical race theorists.

01:51:49.000 I think these are people who are functionally working off the same set of misguided principles that have been dictating corporate policy for decades now, in an attempt to overstate how hip and cool and totally not bigoted they are.

01:52:03.000 But with regards to the executive order, if one ideology begets another, and if you want to believe critical race theory leads to stuff like that... We agree on that point.

01:52:11.000 Okay, okay.

01:52:12.000 Then I'm glad.

01:52:12.000 I'm glad about that.

01:52:13.000 So here's my question.

01:52:15.000 Well, I don't want to interrupt you.

01:52:16.000 Finish your thought just so people can hear it.

01:52:17.000 I'm assuming I know what you're going to say.

01:52:19.000 Right.

01:52:20.000 If critical race theory leads to that, and again, I contest because I feel like corporations have been doing basically that for ages, but then we must acknowledge then, of course, that there are elements of Trump's language, like the way he presents himself, the stuff that he says, that do lead to the creation of far-right militias and violence in the same way that any political sort of extreme group will form from any type of speech.

01:52:40.000 But to then executively ban conservatism in an attempt to target the extremism?

01:52:46.000 I think we would recognize then, okay, maybe we should have painted with a finer brush here.

01:52:53.000 I guess the question then is, did Trump outright ban the ideology across the board, even at universities, or did he ban the specific trainings?

01:52:59.000 Well, he banned the trainings.

01:53:01.000 Now, you're gonna have to correct me if I'm wrong.

01:53:02.000 Did he not say that federal funding would be taken away from universities that participated in that training?

01:53:08.000 Or am I... I don't know about that one.

01:53:10.000 Okay, I could be misremembering that.

01:53:12.000 I'll just put it this way.

01:53:14.000 The training programs I read to you about taking white males on some trip to have them reflect on their racism, whatever.

01:53:19.000 Mud wrestle. 0.91

01:53:20.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:53:22.000 You would say that's bad?

01:53:23.000 I can't imagine that being effective.

01:53:26.000 But can you denounce that with me, but also acknowledge that critical race theory is like a tool for understanding racism?

01:53:32.000 Based on what I can read about critical race theory, I'd say absolutely not.

01:53:35.000 Well, check it out.

01:53:35.000 Race theory is talking about class and race combined because we come from a country where our ancestors were white, if you want to call us white, which I still don't think we are.

01:53:44.000 And they were wealthy.

01:53:45.000 And so that wealth has been passed down through generations to people with the similar skin tone.

01:53:49.000 And the black people, when they're not black, they had slaves with no money, so that lack of wealth has been passed down. 0.99

01:53:54.000 Now there's a class diversion, and there's an inherent bias in our society because of the class diversion.

01:54:00.000 And so if the issue is, we want to help people who are poor, we now have a problem with the likes of these programs.

01:54:08.000 In that, you now have a whole mix of people who are both poor, and wealthy who are of all different races, 0.99

01:54:16.000 and there's a disproportion of people of one race who might be wealthier or impoverished.

01:54:22.000 If you enact racial policy, you leave people poor and you don't actually solve the problem of poverty.

01:54:27.000 So is our goal to just say we wanna help one race ignoring all the others or do we wanna end poverty?

01:54:32.000 In which case, these programs should be ended and our policy should be based on class and not race

01:54:38.000 so long as we've gotten rid of racism in our laws.

01:54:43.000 Sure.

01:54:43.000 Well, there are racial disparities that'll need to be addressed as well.

01:54:46.000 If you have black folk on average in a certain place and white folks on average in a better place, lifting people out of poverty won't fix the respective divide between black and white people.

01:54:56.000 It'll just level the pot in general.

01:54:59.000 But that's better than nothing.

01:55:00.000 I mean, we're not even getting that in this country, so honestly, at this point, I mean, I'll take that.

01:55:04.000 But I just, I need to say, because I think I found a comparison, maybe perhaps a more effective one, with regards to this.

01:55:10.000 You're aware, of course, that back in the 1980s, even the 90s, the promotion of homosexuality as a legitimate lifestyle, saying it's okay to be gay, this was called child abuse in many, many circles.

01:55:20.000 This was in fact a mainstream Republican position for a very long time, and we all know the propaganda that they used.

01:55:26.000 If there was an executive action that was taken to ban federal governments that told the people there that it was okay to be gay or that you shouldn't discriminate.

01:55:35.000 That's not a good analogy to use.

01:55:36.000 Because the accusation that it abetted child abuse, I would be equally skeptical of that tendency.

01:55:43.000 We have to be, when it comes to banning certain types of ideas in federal government, we have to be very careful.

01:55:47.000 How would you feel if, in the 80s, there were government training saying that being gay was wrong, And they told people who were gay to go on retreats to address their gayness.

01:55:59.000 You would want that banned, wouldn't you?

01:56:01.000 Yeah, but there wasn't, uh, what broader idea would I be banning along with it?

01:56:05.000 I would be fine with that specifically being banned.

01:56:06.000 So here's what I'm saying.

01:56:07.000 I think the real issue at heart is, did Trump ban the idea or did he ban the trainings?

01:56:11.000 Well, it's really hard to tell because Trump, anytime he signs an executive order, it's really vague.

01:56:16.000 I think we can, but I don't think we need to keep arguing.

01:56:19.000 I think we can say we agree the trainings shouldn't happen and we agree that people should be allowed to learn.

01:56:22.000 Assuming they're as bad as what's indicated here.

01:56:25.000 Yes.

01:56:26.000 Yeah, that's fine.

01:56:27.000 I don't think they're effective anyway, you know?

01:56:29.000 I think, I mean, you'll find most critical race theories don't agree with that.

01:56:31.000 Critical race theory, along with critical theory, are derivatives of the Frankfurt School and a generally Marxist perspective on social events.

01:56:38.000 That is to say, a sort of agitative, discursive process of different classes interacting with one another.

01:56:43.000 Leftists don't like corporate diversity training.

01:56:47.000 Of course, of course.

01:56:49.000 Look, when you've got, I don't know who Cheryl L. Harris is or Gloria Lansing Billings.

01:56:54.000 I'm sure they're wonderful people.

01:56:56.000 The 1993 research, Whiteness as Property, and you see how that extends into a whole facet of racialized thinking.

01:57:03.000 Affirmative action, for instance, is a component of all of this.

01:57:06.000 It's not of critical race theory.

01:57:08.000 I mean, according to this it is.

01:57:09.000 Well, affirmative action was implemented off of reasons that had nothing to do with critical race theory.

01:57:15.000 Critical race theory is just about the respective antagonisms.

01:57:18.000 In fact, I think most critical race theorists, or at least most orthodox ones, you know, like leftist ones, would actually be quite critical of the idea that you could emancipate black people by giving them Something that's interesting is how races are actually genetically different.

01:57:31.000 only further cementing them in a system that has caused them to fall to the place they're

01:57:34.000 in today.

01:57:35.000 I imagine that would be...

01:57:36.000 Well, that's a critique of capitalism.

01:57:37.000 Well, sure.

01:57:38.000 I mean, it all gets lumped together, right?

01:57:40.000 Yeah.

01:57:41.000 You know, something that's interesting is how races are actually genetically different.

01:57:44.000 Like, like, after, you know, and it's, that's a challenging conversation.

01:57:49.000 Yeah.

01:57:50.000 Because it can be, seem offensive.

01:57:51.000 But I mean, the genetic, the reason you look different is because your genetics are different.

01:57:56.000 And so...

01:57:57.000 I don't know.

01:57:58.000 I mean, modern biology is very interesting.

01:58:02.000 Again, I said I argue with a lot of Nazis. 0.92

01:58:04.000 Nowadays, biologists don't even use race.

01:58:06.000 They use clines as an idea, which have intersecting lines of parallel DNA similarities that can vary based on race, ethnicity, geography.

01:58:18.000 The interesting stuff is when you look at how all these intersect, there's more genetic diversity in the continent of Africa than there is between the average black and white person.

01:58:26.000 Meaning that if you took one African, not like Black American, but African, and found another random African, and then DNA tested whatever, the difference between them would be greater than if you took a random African and a random European. 0.60

01:58:37.000 Oh, so it's not the color of their skin necessarily, even though they're different races within the Africans.

01:58:41.000 It's just interesting.

01:58:42.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:58:42.000 So the issue is, people use race as a colloquial term for saying, like, The color of your skin and the certain features that exist within your, you know, typically your face or your body.

01:58:51.000 Yeah.

01:58:52.000 So they'll use that to describe like, you know, Asian eyes or whatever, or, you know, black people's noses or whatever, whether they're racial stereotypes, which I think to an extent, yes, because just because the color of your skin is one way doesn't imply.

01:59:03.000 But I bring that up to point out that some people don't get, I guess this might, you might agree with this, I don't know, that white privilege doesn't necessarily mean white skin.

01:59:14.000 Yeah, there are ways that you can evoke white privilege while actually being quite non-white. 0.81

01:59:18.000 What I mean is like somebody who's perhaps albino, but visually distinct.

01:59:23.000 Oh yeah, of course, because even people who, like black people or albino, there's a skin condition some black people have that leads to them having patches of white skin.

01:59:30.000 Michael Jackson claimed that he had it, but he obviously didn't because it was... Was it vitiligo?

01:59:34.000 Something like that, yeah.

01:59:35.000 Sometimes you can go for the whole face, but obviously there are other indications from people who

01:59:40.000 I guess prioritize different races over others that they should treat them differently or something like that.

01:59:46.000 Anyway, I just think what I think we all need to agree upon fundamentally, and I'm sure that we

01:59:50.000 all do here at least in concept, maybe not in actual practice or implementation, is that the

01:59:56.000 idea that people have a different sort in life based on the color of their skin or whatever else,

02:00:02.000 It's not based.

02:00:03.000 And I think there are a lot of deep seated problems in this country.

02:00:06.000 And I guess my frustration here stems largely from the fact that I wish I could say, like with great confidence that, you know, vote blue and this'll get fixed.

02:00:16.000 But while I do believe that Biden would be better for race relations than Trump, as do many Americans.

02:00:22.000 We know that's not true.

02:00:23.000 A lot of these cities with these deeply held racial disparities are Democrat-run cities.

02:00:28.000 I don't think Republicans would necessarily do better, but it does indicate that the system we have right now is not really fixing this problem.

02:00:34.000 It's made us debt slaves, man, to the banking system that wants interest.

02:00:40.000 That's a great point.

02:00:41.000 These cities that have the problems of police brutality, the places where these individuals have lost their lives that sparked these protests, Well, it's the same problem with COVID in America, right?

02:00:55.000 No two cities are alike, no one country is alike.

02:00:57.000 would do any better. I think we have San Diego, which is a Democrat, Republican mayor and didn't see, I guess, high

02:01:04.000 credits, not on the high coast. They're all stone man.

02:01:06.000 Well, it's the same problem with COVID in America, right?

02:01:10.000 No two cities are alike. No one country is alike. The best

02:01:12.000 argument I've heard is that a lot of the cities that have high

02:01:15.000 degrees of racial disparity are also run by Democrats, because

02:01:19.000 multi racial multi ethnic city is more likely to vote in Democrats just based on demographic trends. San Diego

02:01:25.000 has a lot of white and Hispanic people doesn't have as many black people so it might contribute to the trend. I don't

02:01:31.000 really know. So this this was a post I think it was Washington

02:01:33.000 Post, they mapped out the highest crime cities because I think Trump said they're all run by Democrats, and they 0.81

02:01:39.000 found that

02:01:40.000 I think in the by sheer numbers, that's true, but obviously New York has more people, they have more crime.

02:01:48.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:01:48.000 But per capita, I think there were no Republican cities.

02:01:51.000 There were two non-affiliated cities and the rest were Democrat.

02:01:55.000 And that would exclude San Diego, which I think is like the eighth biggest city and doesn't have a high rate of crime.

02:02:01.000 But I think it's fair to say that doesn't necessarily mean that the problem is individual Democrats.

02:02:09.000 I think it shows a problem might be single party control, no political competition.

02:02:13.000 So in California, for instance, they've had an ongoing problem with homelessness in Los Angeles, San Francisco.

02:02:18.000 And what happens is because I actually worked for a homeless shelter in the L.A.

02:02:21.000 area.

02:02:22.000 You keep getting Democrats who campaign on this, but they have no competition.

02:02:26.000 So when they win, they just laugh and do nothing.

02:02:28.000 Then you get wealthy people in the actual LA proper saying, not in my backyard.

02:02:32.000 So then nothing gets done about it.

02:02:34.000 And unless, I don't know how do you change that, because what happens in these cities, people just go in and say, Democrat, all across the board, and then nothing changes, because nothing has to change.

02:02:42.000 We need, absolutely, we need ranked choice voting in this country.

02:02:46.000 We live in a shockingly undemocratic country.

02:02:49.000 Nobody feels represented by either party.

02:02:51.000 Well, we're not supposed to be overtly democratic.

02:02:53.000 No, no, of course we have the Republicans, but we need at least, I mean, even the Founding Fathers said that a two-party system, or even parties in general, would lead to the downfall of this country, because, and there are a lot of problems with them, but if we're going to keep parties, man, ranked choice voting would allow third parties to actually exist and flourish.

02:03:07.000 Right now, they never can.

02:03:08.000 They can't do it.

02:03:08.000 It's not possible.

02:03:09.000 The spoiler effect will always lead towards two parties being the two dominant ones.

02:03:12.000 So let's do this and jump into Joe Biden and Donald Trump.

02:03:15.000 Hey! 0.99

02:03:16.000 My man.

02:03:17.000 We're going long tonight.

02:03:18.000 Yeah, super long.

02:03:19.000 Wow.

02:03:20.000 Wait, what time is it?

02:03:21.000 It's 10.

02:03:22.000 Really?

02:03:22.000 Yeah.

02:03:23.000 We've been talking for two hours.

02:03:24.000 Yeah, man.

02:03:25.000 OK, I'll take a sip.

02:03:26.000 You've got to stay hydrated, people.

02:03:29.000 I don't like any of the political establishment.

02:03:30.000 I think there's very few people on either side that I like and think are good people.

02:03:35.000 And there's slightly more Republicans than Democrats.

02:03:37.000 But I think it's because the majority of both parties are people who, like I said, didn't have to do anything.

02:03:45.000 gerrymandering, heavy guaranteed districts, you end up with Republican areas that are

02:03:51.000 always going to be Republican.

02:03:52.000 So, the Republicans are going to say, they don't have to do anything.

02:03:54.000 They'll be like, hey, vote for me.

02:03:55.000 Or don't.

02:03:56.000 Ha ha, who cares?

02:03:57.000 The Democrats said the same thing.

02:03:58.000 Nancy Pelosi held up a glass of water and she said, in my district or AOC's, you put

02:04:02.000 a D on this glass of water, it's going to get elected. 0.93

02:04:04.000 That's a problem.

02:04:06.000 That's a serious problem.

02:04:07.000 I disavow Nancy Pelosi.

02:04:08.000 Yeah, as you should.

02:04:11.000 I like the idea of rank choice voting.

02:04:13.000 Because to me, it would get rid of... Well, actually, I'm not entirely convinced it would get rid of Nancy Pelosi.

02:04:18.000 Term limits would. 0.93

02:04:19.000 How do you feel about term limits?

02:04:21.000 I haven't seen any evidence that they lead to a more democratic government.

02:04:25.000 I'm 50-50.

02:04:25.000 I could go either way.

02:04:26.000 Though, I have to say, I really do think the only reason that Nancy Pelosi is still in there right now is because of fear.

02:04:32.000 Democrats are terrified of Trump.

02:04:33.000 I think they have good reason to be.

02:04:35.000 But you have somebody, Shahid Buttar, who's running against Nancy Pelosi to try and unseat her in her district.

02:04:40.000 A Republican?

02:04:41.000 No, a Democrat.

02:04:41.000 A progressive, though, in line with Bernie AOC.

02:04:45.000 Yeah, no, it did.

02:04:46.000 And that's the thing.

02:04:47.000 And I think that, like, fundamentally, the Democratic Party is ready to move on to a different set of ideas, a more true fulfillment, maybe, of what it could mean for its citizens and the party by the citizenry.

02:04:58.000 The actual elected officials, though, They have every trick in the book that they can pull out to maintain themselves in power for as long as is humanly possible.

02:05:07.000 And this is my argument for why Trump needs to win.

02:05:10.000 Oh no.

02:05:10.000 Joe Biden is a 47-year establishment crony who wants control of the executive branch to seal the doors and never allow any challenge ever again.

02:05:18.000 They are upset that they lost in 2016.

02:05:21.000 They weren't supposed to.

02:05:22.000 They did everything to crush Bernie Sanders.

02:05:24.000 And Donald Trump is the insurgent who upended the Republican Party and they hated his guts too.

02:05:28.000 Now they're beholden to him.

02:05:30.000 Here's my opinion, and I ask for yours afterward.

02:05:34.000 If Joe Biden gets in, he's locking the doors.

02:05:36.000 They're gonna shore up the fences.

02:05:38.000 They're gonna install their bureaucrats. 1.00

02:05:39.000 They're gonna make sure that you guys don't get a foot in the door ever.

02:05:42.000 You got too close with Bernie Sanders.

02:05:44.000 Trump, see, here's the thing.

02:05:46.000 Bernie Sanders, left-wing populist.

02:05:48.000 Donald Trump, right-wing populist.

02:05:49.000 The elites did not like either of them.

02:05:51.000 The establishment Republicans hate Trump, and that's exemplified by the Lincoln Project and the cronies who are now just espousing whatever the Democrats want them to say.

02:06:00.000 Okay.

02:06:00.000 If Joe Biden wins, they get back in the ivory tower, they bolt the doors shut, and they

02:06:03.000 laugh at both populist wings.

02:06:05.000 Trump was a bull brought to the gates, who stormed in, trashed everything, and the Democrats

02:06:10.000 are freaking out but still in there. 0.96

02:06:11.000 Bernie Sanders was very polite.

02:06:13.000 Hello, hello, let me in, please, I'll agree with you, I'll stop saying the millionaires.

02:06:17.000 If Joe Biden wins, I believe there will never be another populist, be it left, right, or

02:06:23.000 I think if Trump wins, Joe Biden was the best they could muster.

02:06:27.000 They are done.

02:06:28.000 If Joe Biden gets in and Kamala Harris then ends up being that person in charge, there will never be a Bernie Sanders.

02:06:33.000 There will never be a leftist populist.

02:06:35.000 But if Trump gets in and the establishment withers and dies over the next four years because Trump's going nuts, he's going to fire everybody.

02:06:41.000 He's stripping all these government protections from these employees.

02:06:44.000 He's going to fire that of the CIA.

02:06:46.000 To put his own cronies in, yeah.

02:06:47.000 I don't, but is he going to be able to do that?

02:06:50.000 If he fires them, somebody has to go there.

02:06:52.000 But that's still an argument beyond what he is doing.

02:06:54.000 So maybe that's an issue.

02:06:56.000 But if Donald Trump gets rid of the bureaucrats and he strips the establishment of its power, then I believe in 2024, you're going to see something new and wild, whatever it is.

02:07:05.000 I don't think it's going to be Trump 12 years.

02:07:08.000 I think Joe Biden is the best they could muster up to try and save the crony establishment.

02:07:13.000 And the Republicans like Rick Wilson and the other Lincoln Project people, Joined forces with them, showing us who they really are.

02:07:20.000 Joe Biden is getting more money from Wall Street than Trump is.

02:07:23.000 He gets more money from the wealthy than Trump does.

02:07:25.000 He is the establishment billionaire candidate who is being protected by big tech and billionaires who are censoring stories that might hurt him.

02:07:33.000 Let Biden go!

02:07:33.000 Okay, so we've got a lot to unpack here.

02:07:36.000 First of all, I fail to see in any meaningful way how Trump is anti-establishment.

02:07:41.000 How has Trump done that?

02:07:42.000 an enormous amount of power in the federal government.

02:07:44.000 He seems as if not more comfortable with executive orders than Obama ever did.

02:07:48.000 He's up drone strikes.

02:07:49.000 And what's more, he has fundamentally eroded the institutions which are meant to challenge

02:07:53.000 the government, the media.

02:07:55.000 Is the media bad?

02:07:56.000 Absolutely.

02:07:57.000 But the media still serves a very useful role in this country as ineffectuously as they

02:08:00.000 do.

02:08:01.000 How has Trump done that?

02:08:02.000 The media has constantly called the, I'm sorry, Trump has constantly called the media the

02:08:05.000 enemy of the people.

02:08:06.000 He's threatened to remove press badges from people who are mean to him at press conferences.

02:08:09.000 And Obama did it to Fox News.

02:08:12.000 It's the degree to which this took place is not even comparable.

02:08:15.000 These are two different worlds.

02:08:16.000 And calling the press the enemy of the people is like fascism 101.

02:08:20.000 I don't care about right-leaning people getting their populists in office.

02:08:24.000 Right-leaning populism has a name.

02:08:25.000 It's fascism.

02:08:26.000 No, it's not.

02:08:27.000 No, it unquestionably is.

02:08:29.000 I don't want these people in office.

02:08:30.000 Can you define fascism?

02:08:32.000 Yeah, fascism is an ultra-nationalist, far-right form of government which relies on the assembly of the common will, the unification of a national narrative against enemies from both within and from without.

02:08:44.000 It usually has to focus on things like michismo or perhaps on the belief in a type of ethnic or racial supremacy.

02:08:50.000 So how would you define right-wing libertarians?

02:08:52.000 I don't think there is such a thing as a right-wing libertarian.

02:08:55.000 How is that possible?

02:08:56.000 Because I have never met one.

02:08:57.000 I keep talking to people who say they are, and then they stop being libertarian the moment it comes to literally any issue other than taxes and weed.

02:09:03.000 There was a dude who took his clothes off on the stage of the libertarian debate to argue about freedom, and they had a debate over whether or not you should be allowed to sell heroin to kids.

02:09:11.000 Yeah, well, they are some amazing people.

02:09:15.000 I will not deny it.

02:09:16.000 But they aren't populist, libertarian.

02:09:18.000 But I have to say, because we have so much to unpack here.

02:09:21.000 With regards to Trump, okay.

02:09:23.000 Is Joe Biden a candidate that I feel proud of voting for?

02:09:25.000 Of course not.

02:09:26.000 Absolutely not.

02:09:27.000 I'm not even going to waste time defending that.

02:09:29.000 When it comes to the means for populism to interfere with the government after Joe Biden wins, I am optimistic.

02:09:37.000 Bernie Sanders has extracted an enormous number of concessions from Joe Biden, and what's more, there are increasing signs That the popularity of the squad and other more populist, left-leaning, progressive, sometimes even socialist candidates, they are starting to wean in on the Democratic Party.

02:09:56.000 The constant conflict between Pelosi and AOC, and the fact that at certain points Pelosi has had to defer public opinion to AOC in those respects, is an indication that within that party there is a real chance at these dinosaurs.

02:10:10.000 I think the average age of the Democratic politician is like 71 or something.

02:10:14.000 These dinosaurs being ousted.

02:10:16.000 Now mind you, I am a socialist.

02:10:18.000 I don't think AOC is radical enough, but I recognize that progressive change in a given direction is preferable, especially when we recognize what we're gambling with here.

02:10:26.000 Even if I were to believe that Donald Trump was some sort of anti-establishment bull, and I don't, consolidated heavy amounts of federal power, defunded institutions.

02:10:34.000 What does that mean?

02:10:35.000 Well, the constant use of executive action, the fact that he has normalized attacks on institutions which attack him.

02:10:43.000 Like, for example, his attempt to try and get the FBI director fired during the Russiagate investigation, or the constant attacks on the press and the media, or the fact that he seems to be contemptuous of the very idea of losing an election itself.

02:10:59.000 He's consolidating federal power but trying to also fire the heads of these organizations.

02:11:03.000 I'm sorry, I should be more specific.

02:11:05.000 Executive power.

02:11:07.000 Yes.

02:11:07.000 Right.

02:11:07.000 But hasn't he been heavily constrained in every direction?

02:11:12.000 He's been sued a million times.

02:11:13.000 Yeah, because he keeps breaking the law.

02:11:14.000 He breaks the law constantly.

02:11:16.000 Well... No, he does, yeah.

02:11:19.000 He has engaged in scandal after scandal after scandal over the course of his presidency.

02:11:23.000 Just be specific.

02:11:25.000 With what?

02:11:25.000 Name a scandal, name a law that's broken.

02:11:28.000 Because we hear it a lot.

02:11:29.000 I can tell you that does Trump use his authority and push really hard and then get challenged in the courts and lose sometimes and win sometimes?

02:11:35.000 Yes.

02:11:36.000 Sure, so we can talk about the administration.

02:11:37.000 First of all, the Russiagate investigation led to literally dozens of credible indictments and arrests with regards to their misappropriation of funds or with their collaboration with foreign governments.

02:11:49.000 We have the Ukraine scandal, of course, with regards to him bartering aid with their willingness to help him.

02:11:55.000 That seems true now, though.

02:11:57.000 What do you mean?

02:11:57.000 That Joe Biden was using his son as an intermediary.

02:12:00.000 You still can't withhold aid on the condition that they release that information.

02:12:02.000 Well, so it's an argument about whether or not Trump had a right to withhold aid.

02:12:06.000 That's illegal.

02:12:06.000 Joe Biden did it.

02:12:07.000 He did it.

02:12:07.000 He literally did it.

02:12:08.000 We have him on camera.

02:12:08.000 Joe Biden said, you won't get the money unless you do what I want.

02:12:12.000 So they're both criminals?

02:12:13.000 Wait, I have never at any point in my life defended Joe Biden.

02:12:17.000 I know, I know.

02:12:18.000 But if we can make that argument, we could say then Joe Biden's doing the same thing.

02:12:21.000 Yeah, the difference is that Joe Biden wasn't the President of the United States of America when he did it.

02:12:26.000 Yeah.

02:12:27.000 I mean, if you want, you're free to investigate.

02:12:29.000 You're free to investigate.

02:12:30.000 Why won't they?

02:12:31.000 What do you mean?

02:12:32.000 Why is the media in this big tag?

02:12:34.000 What do you mean the media?

02:12:36.000 Wait, this vague conspiracism.

02:12:38.000 You guys are the media, too.

02:12:39.000 No, no, no.

02:12:39.000 The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal have both now written that there was a big effort to not cover the Biden scandal.

02:12:45.000 I would need to look into the specifics of it.

02:12:47.000 One of the things that I don't like when we talk about the badness of these characteristics is when we start playing defense for them on the assumption that the media is going after them or not going after them.

02:12:59.000 Left-leaning media will go after left-leaning aims.

02:13:01.000 Right-leaning media will go after right-leaning aims.

02:13:03.000 There is no such thing as journalistic integrity or objectivity.

02:13:07.000 There are only people in power and money.

02:13:09.000 Well, the establishment media I don't know what the establishment media is.

02:13:15.000 Fox News is the most viewed news station in the country.

02:13:18.000 Tucker Carlson is the largest pundit.

02:13:19.000 Do you know how many views Chris Cuomo and Rachel Maddow got combined?

02:13:23.000 Like 8 million?

02:13:24.000 And do you know what Tucker Carlson got?

02:13:27.000 In his average was 5.

02:13:28.000 He's peaked at tens of millions, hasn't he?

02:13:31.000 He's what?

02:13:31.000 Hasn't he peaked recently?

02:13:32.000 He got, like, his ratings hit, like... No, no, no.

02:13:34.000 Five million was, like, the historical record.

02:13:36.000 He's, like, the most viewed.

02:13:37.000 Oh, my goodness.

02:13:37.000 Sorry.

02:13:37.000 But when you combine CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS, it's tenfold.

02:13:42.000 Because you're combining all of the left-wing media, and arguably some of these are barely left-leaning, with one partisan right media.

02:13:50.000 If you take a look at all of talk radio, if you take a look at Fox News, if you take a look at OAN, for example, No, it's not.

02:14:00.000 It's not great, but it does have a lot of influence within the government because we know that Trump watches it and Trump is himself a form of media.

02:14:06.000 When he talks about things with the broadcasts that he gives, he reflects essentially far-right partisan talking points.

02:14:11.000 These are in many ways reflective of the political opinions that right-leaning people have forthcoming.

02:14:17.000 We got off a little bit here.

02:14:19.000 I want to talk specifically though about Trump with regards to his practice in government even if we're

02:14:25.000 to leave aside the supported criminality of any Candidate because as far as I'm concerned being the

02:14:31.000 president is a crime. I'm not I'm not it's a weird job I'm really not in a position to

02:14:36.000 This is one of the things that I've said Even if because you know

02:14:40.000 You don't want Bernie Sanders to win he would you my fellow lefties whoever's watching would be

02:14:45.000 Devastated to see what even a left-leaning person has to do to be and stay president in the United States

02:14:51.000 We're especially with regards to foreign policy but if we want to look past that stuff and we want to look

02:14:56.000 at stuff like climate change or if we want to look at stuff regarding

02:14:59.000 like education or if we want to look at stuff just regarding like the

02:15:03.000 Fundamental gentlemen's agreements that have operated in this country for centuries now that seem to be

02:15:08.000 Unweaving.

02:15:09.000 I don't think that the Trump presidency is anti-establishment.

02:15:12.000 I think that he's very pro-corporate.

02:15:14.000 I think he's very pro-government as long as it's his government.

02:15:17.000 I think that his persistent refusal to acknowledge that if he loses in the election that he should actually step down peacefully is terrifying.

02:15:27.000 And I think that while Joe Biden is a haughty institutionalist crony who probably has as many original thoughts in his head that weren't given to him by like focus groups, as like your average chipmunk. 0.77

02:15:39.000 I think that he is a- That's me to chipmunks.

02:15:42.000 Yeah, I apologize.

02:15:43.000 I've known many wonderful chipmunks.

02:15:47.000 I think that he is, at least with regards to climate change, which I think is a very

02:15:52.000 simple, very, very easy thing to focus on, an objective improvement, and that he also

02:15:58.000 allows for meaningful left-wing populism, as opposed to what Trump is, which is a gateway

02:16:04.000 to very, very bad far-right populism.

02:16:07.000 Have you read about Obamagate?

02:16:09.000 Yes.

02:16:10.000 I- You mean the thing where he spied on Trump?

02:16:13.000 So the meeting with Sally Yates and Comey and Biden and Obama where Joe Biden suggested using the Logan Act against Michael Flynn to falsely prosecute him, where they then threatened his son with imprisonment unless he agreed to testify against Trump.

02:16:31.000 Did any of that actually happen?

02:16:33.000 Yeah.

02:16:33.000 OK.

02:16:33.000 So so to clarify, though, the notes that were released in the investigation by the FBI show that there was a note scrawled that ascribed Logan Act to Joe Biden in a meeting with Sally Yates immediately afterwards.

02:16:47.000 I think it was Sally Yates who then wrote an email to herself explaining everything that happened and sent it to her.

02:16:51.000 And then several government employees in the FBI took out liability insurance, saying in like I'm paraphrasing that we're in serious trouble.

02:16:58.000 We better buy insurance because we're going to get sued over this.

02:17:01.000 I can't speak to the specifics of this.

02:17:03.000 I know that Trump has vaguely alluded at some sort of left conspiracy to deny him the presidency, which has always come off very fascist to me.

02:17:12.000 So the notes are released.

02:17:14.000 Do you know about the Peter Strzok and Lisa Page things?

02:17:16.000 I have to say, and I apologize if this comes off like, I guess, disinterested, but having followed, I guess, the events leading up to and I've explored this Obamagate thing pretty extensively, from what I've seen and from the media sources that I've looked at and the information, the analysis, I haven't seen anything that even remotely justifies the claims that Trump has made about this.

02:17:34.000 Do you know about the text messages between Lisa Page and Peter Strzok?

02:17:37.000 I don't know the specifics.

02:17:38.000 So where he said, we're going to stop him, we have an insurance policy.

02:17:42.000 Like, this is all public information.

02:17:44.000 I think the issue is when you talk about Russiagate and Trump's actions, it's coming from a place of you not actually looking at the evidence.

02:17:50.000 No, I assure you I have the issue is that... Well, if you didn't know about the meeting with Comey and Yates and Obama and the Logan Act and what Michael Flynn was threatened with, and like, do you know about the ongoing court case where Judge Sullivan is blocking the government from dropping its own case?

02:18:04.000 Now, I'm familiar with the things that you referred to here.

02:18:06.000 The issue is that what usually happens with this is that there are a lot of nuances to these cases that need to be looked over thoroughly, and usually the way they're presented is extremely hyperbolic.

02:18:15.000 Like Russiagate.

02:18:16.000 Well, Russiagate provide... Well, again, keep in mind, this is the big difference between right-leaning claims and Russiagate.

02:18:22.000 Russiagate was investigated dozens of indictments and arrests.

02:18:25.000 All these accusations... Not related to Russiagate, though.

02:18:27.000 Well, they were brought about by the investigation into Russiagate involving the misappropriation of campaign funds.

02:18:32.000 And we have an FBI lawyer who was recently indicted on altering evidence to frame Carter Page and get false FISA warrants to investigate in the Russiagate.

02:18:40.000 So some of these may have been, may be, what's it saying?

02:18:43.000 Fruit of the poison tree or whatever?

02:18:44.000 Fruit of the poison tree.

02:18:45.000 Fruit of the poison tree.

02:18:46.000 Yeah.

02:18:46.000 I mean, a lot of the Trump administration has found themselves arrested.

02:18:49.000 Do you know how Paul Manafort ended up getting found out?

02:18:52.000 It was actually Ukrainians colluding with the DNC operative in providing documents which led to the investigation of Manafort.

02:18:59.000 So it was all overtly political actions.

02:19:02.000 There's nothing necessarily wrong with political actions.

02:19:06.000 We're talking about the investigation of a political administration, of the Trump administration.

02:19:11.000 The reason I bring this up is... And by the way, we've moved somewhat off of the electability or the electoralism argument here.

02:19:16.000 So here's the point.

02:19:18.000 The way you framed everything about Trump and the actions and the things he was saying Firing Comey.

02:19:23.000 Sounds like Comey should have been fired based on the information that's come out since he fired him.

02:19:27.000 That is- Wait, hold on.

02:19:28.000 That is abso- First of all, even if that is the case, which I sincerely doubt it is, that is absolutely not why Trump claimed to.

02:19:34.000 The evidence that was provided with regards to his attempt was he wanted Comey fired because Comey was looking into him.

02:19:39.000 You can't post-talk justify an illegal act because it turns out later- Hold on.

02:19:44.000 Trump tweeted early, way early, that he was being spied on by Obama.

02:19:48.000 He wasn't being spied on by Obama.

02:19:50.000 That is what the FBI does. 0.85

02:19:52.000 No, the FBI does that for every campaign.

02:19:53.000 that were going and having meetings with Trump's people and then spying on them.

02:19:57.000 That is what the FBI does. 0.85

02:19:58.000 It's a colloquial...

02:19:59.000 So, so sure, so you have people who were spying on Trump's campaign.

02:20:03.000 It's a colloquial...

02:20:03.000 I mean, if you wanna argue semantics about the way they're spying...

02:20:04.000 No, that's... the FBI does that for every campaign.

02:20:06.000 That's their job.

02:20:07.000 So if you have, before Trump is inaugurated, a meeting with Obama, Yates, Comey,

02:20:12.000 and then you have these notes, you have these text messages between FBI agents,

02:20:16.000 and Trump knew about this, but it wasn't declassified, so Trump took action and fired the guy, I mean, it sounds

02:20:21.000 justified.

02:20:21.000 Well, he didn't fire- he attempted to fire the guy, and he wasn't able to.

02:20:24.000 Comey? 1.00

02:20:25.000 Yeah, but- We did fire Comey.

02:20:26.000 Well, no- Comey was like, I have a great recollection, Trump said this to me, and I'm like, what?

02:20:30.000 No, no, no.

02:20:31.000 When he was being investigated for the rush against death.

02:20:32.000 Oh my goodness!

02:20:33.000 No, there's a cat.

02:20:34.000 I think a cat just knocked the... She did.

02:20:36.000 Oh, okay.

02:20:37.000 Well, the cat ran afterwards.

02:20:38.000 Well, we gotta fix everything.

02:20:40.000 Anyway.

02:20:40.000 You keep talking.

02:20:41.000 Carry on, yes.

02:20:42.000 His efforts to fire, there was the intermediary who asked to fire the guy.

02:20:47.000 I'm forgetting his name right now.

02:20:50.000 The person who he attempted to fire, and he said no, and then Trump fired that guy.

02:20:56.000 Do you remember that name?

02:20:57.000 Was that... What was his name?

02:20:59.000 I can't remember, I'm sorry.

02:21:01.000 I'm completely, huh?

02:21:02.000 Sessions resigned.

02:21:02.000 No, no, yeah, Sessions resigned.

02:21:03.000 Look, look, look, look, look, I'm not bringing this up to be like everything's perfect.

02:21:06.000 Yeah, I just feel, well, no, no, but it's just, it's, it's interesting to me, because again, it's just, it falls, like, on this vague conspiracism, like, with regards to- It's not, it's not vague, I mean, look, if you read the news on these things, you'd know what I'm talking about.

02:21:17.000 No, but I have, it's just, a lot of these claims get jumbled up, and to be honest, I forget which narrative or which universe that I'm operating in at any given point.

02:21:23.000 I don't know.

02:21:23.000 regards to like the uh... rush agate investigation there was solid evidence

02:21:28.000 they went in they investigated what was the evidence the evidence with regards to the russia uh... russia gate

02:21:33.000 investigation uh... wasn't there like uh...

02:21:36.000 uh... some evidence that there may have been like meetings were held with

02:21:39.000 members of the trump administration uh... with regards to them accepting uh... deals or

02:21:43.000 information from russia i don't know are you sure

02:21:45.000 i mean it's been like three years since this was politically relevant i don't

02:21:48.000 What I can tell you is that we know that the FISA warrants were obtained through malpractice, I guess that you can put it.

02:21:55.000 So we had.

02:21:57.000 So they lied.

02:21:58.000 A next FBI lawyer has been indicted and charged for altering evidence to imply that Carter Page was not an was not.

02:22:06.000 An asset of the CIA when he was having these meetings when in fact he was doing it for the US government

02:22:10.000 Yeah, I'd have to look so they essentially got bunk FISA warrants

02:22:14.000 Then we ended up with before Trump got it got inaugurated You have these notes released that to the best of our

02:22:20.000 understanding It's it's a meeting between several individuals in the

02:22:23.000 Obama administration To try and find a way to go after Michael Flynn to get him

02:22:28.000 to I guess The FBI notes actually read what's our goal? I think it's a

02:22:33.000 text message What's our goal to prosecute or get him fired? My question

02:22:37.000 when that came out was Why why is the FBI trying to get a guy fired from his job?

02:22:41.000 Why were they Obama told Trump not to hire Michael Flynn?

02:22:44.000 Trump hired him. Anyway, I guess Trump did it as an F you to Obama. So for some reason then Obama has a meeting

02:22:51.000 They take notes on Logan Act, maybe, for Michael Flynn, then Michael Flynn gets accused of breaking the Logan Act, or this was what launched the investigation, even though no one's ever been prosecuted under the Logan Act.

02:23:02.000 It's an obscure law that says U.S.

02:23:04.000 individuals can't represent themselves as agents of a government, because as acting National Security Advisor, he had a conversation with the Russian ambassador asking him not to escalate tensions between the countries.

02:23:14.000 That was the justification for launching this It was insane.

02:23:19.000 Then you have text messages between Peter Strzok and Lisa Page, where they're saying, we have an insurance policy, we'll stop him.

02:23:25.000 So Trump complains about this.

02:23:27.000 Trump wants to fire these people.

02:23:28.000 But then the Russian investigation stopped him from taking any action against them.

02:23:32.000 I'll tell you what, man.

02:23:33.000 If at the end of this, we say no Trump, no Biden, but we get rid of all of these intelligence bureaucrats, I'm down.

02:23:39.000 I'm totally down.

02:23:41.000 You'll find most leftists aren't big fans of intelligence agencies.

02:23:44.000 For sure.

02:23:45.000 So when Trump says, I'll put it this way.

02:23:48.000 Do you agree with Trump then when he says that they're spying on me, I didn't even get my first term, frankly I should be allowed a third term?

02:23:57.000 No, but I'll tell you this.

02:23:59.000 He says a lot of really weird stuff sometimes.

02:24:02.000 Now, I'm at something of a disadvantage here and I apologize for that because with regards to the Russiagate investigation thing, it's been a while since I've brushed up on this respective information.

02:24:11.000 I do know that the investigation that did lead to a number of legitimate investigations and arrests and indictments And I think there's something to be said about that.

02:24:21.000 I feel it's often very difficult to understand the totality of like a government conspiracy, or like something going on behind the scenes, until everything is sussed out through a proper investigation.

02:24:30.000 And for that reason, sometimes it can be really difficult to understand not only the specificity of events that have taken place, but the severity of them as well.

02:24:38.000 Because if you want to, and I'm not saying you're doing this, because everyone does this to some extent, if you want to, a disparate set of pieces of information that can be assessed and collected and presented in such a way as to

02:24:52.000 give a narrative and then once you have that narrative you can run with it and

02:24:56.000 that's what Trump has done very often with this Obamagate thing for example

02:24:59.000 like I remember when a reporter asked him what Obamagate was and he was like you

02:25:02.000 know and then he walked away which I think was fair I think it was Trump not

02:25:06.000 knowing well well then I mean but that's the thing and that's one of the

02:25:09.000 issues that I have as well the the

02:25:12.000 I think that there has probably been more confused information put out from our government over the past four years than possibly any other single presidential administration, in large part because there doesn't seem to be any sort of cohesive narrative.

02:25:24.000 It's just scraps of information being used whenever they're politically convenient and discarded when they're not.

02:25:31.000 And this is, if I may bring this back around to what we were talking about earlier, one of the things that really concerns me about Trump.

02:25:37.000 This is an anti-establishment tendency.

02:25:40.000 This is just incompetent governance.

02:25:42.000 This doesn't break the government in a way that makes it more fair or more representative or more kind or more decent or more efficient.

02:25:48.000 This is a type of governance which just makes it worse.

02:25:50.000 So do you want a competent establishment or an incompetent one?

02:25:53.000 I mean competent in certain ways when it comes to coronavirus handling, when it comes to the dissemination of healthcare, when it comes to proper schooling, all areas I think Trump has been woefully inadequate in.

02:26:02.000 I would absolutely prefer a competent establishment because education, handled properly, empowers us.

02:26:08.000 Not keeping us in our homes to be sick and die from coronavirus, that empowers us.

02:26:12.000 There are ways the government, when managed properly, even in an establishment sense, even like someone like Obama, and I hate Obama, Um, can give us tools that we need to become stronger.

02:26:23.000 The best example of this that I use, and I use this when arguing with Bernie or Buster's all the time, is, um, they say Obama stopped the wheels of history.

02:26:30.000 His, his corporate neoliberalism prevented the American people from waking up and recognizing what was wrong with the system.

02:26:36.000 And I say to them, okay, I don't like Obama either.

02:26:38.000 Great, sure.

02:26:39.000 After Obama had two terms, guess who ended up coming in second, narrow second?

02:26:44.000 under Hillary Clinton, the next Democratic primaries, some nobody, independent senator, 0.85

02:26:51.000 who then, in large part because people were disillusioned with Obama, but nonetheless given

02:26:55.000 the tools to think and to act. That's the internet. The internet, yeah, but also people weren't

02:27:01.000 terrified of a pandemic or of global warming, at least not as much as they are today.

02:27:06.000 People weren't dealing with substandard schooling.

02:27:10.000 The more people are terrified and confined and weakened by their circumstances, the less politically emancipated they are.

02:27:16.000 You know what makes it a real challenge, having conversations like this, is just that there's a lot of things you've read that I haven't, a lot of things I've read you haven't, and there are a lot of people who have read things that neither of us have or haven't, but everybody expects us to, like, come to a definitive understanding and solution within the span of a couple hours.

02:27:32.000 I'm just bringing it up because I know that no one's going to be satisfied.

02:27:35.000 Oh, I have never come to a definitive solution on anything over any length of time in a conversation.

02:27:39.000 The reason I say this is because when you bring up global warming, when you bring up the far right, when you bring up Russiagate, I'm like, wow, to like have a conversation on each of those subjects would take an hour to three or four hours.

02:27:53.000 Like, so just to briefly mention this.

02:27:56.000 In your opinion, you said there's no actual right-wing libertarians.

02:28:01.000 Because whenever it comes to it, they actually end up, you know, being more authoritarian.

02:28:05.000 Libertarianism was originally a leftist ideology, and it was appropriated.

02:28:10.000 Not to get into it, just to mention that.

02:28:13.000 Then there's also like Russiagate, where you're like, oh, it's been a while since I've talked to this.

02:28:16.000 And then I, like, the reason I brought that up was like, oh, we got to really break that down to address one point.

02:28:21.000 And then climate change.

02:28:22.000 There's a lot there, too.

02:28:23.000 Like, What are we doing internationally?

02:28:25.000 Why hasn't Joe Biden done anything about China?

02:28:28.000 Not to open up those conversations, I'm just pointing out, there's a lot in each of those we'd have to actually break down.

02:28:33.000 Yeah, of course.

02:28:34.000 It's literally impossible to.

02:28:35.000 Even if you have a very specific policy-focused discussion on one issue, say school choice, that's a big one for Republicans these days, that's easily a three-hour discussion.

02:28:44.000 Depending on how many sources you bring, that can go the whole day.

02:28:47.000 Are you for school choice?

02:28:48.000 I am not for school choice, no.

02:28:49.000 Why not?

02:28:49.000 Why shouldn't people have the right to just choose?

02:28:51.000 I think it puts the blame on that.

02:28:52.000 So here's my concern, right?

02:28:54.000 Individual responsibility is the mantra of the Republican Party.

02:28:57.000 Why are things in your life not going well?

02:28:59.000 Individual responsibility.

02:29:00.000 Often, sometimes, that's true.

02:29:02.000 We are agents capable of making our own decisions.

02:29:05.000 But when it comes to systemic issues, like neighborhoods with poor schooling, these people don't get bad educations because of poor decision making.

02:29:12.000 They get it because their neighborhoods have been wastelands that the government hasn't invested in for decades.

02:29:17.000 My concern, and this is what I fear, I wake up at night in a sweat thinking about this, It's, imagine some single black lady, you know, two kids, two jobs, and now all of a sudden, school choice happens. 1.00

02:29:29.000 Her local district is crap. 0.95

02:29:31.000 There's one 30 minutes away she could drive her kids to, maybe even 20 minutes away. 1.00

02:29:35.000 It's better.

02:29:36.000 Okay, so you drive your kids to and from.

02:29:38.000 Well, maybe you don't have time for that.

02:29:40.000 Do you hire like a sitter to do it?

02:29:41.000 No, you send them to the crappy school, like they would normally have to go to.

02:29:44.000 Right, but that's the thing. 0.92

02:29:45.000 And now, when that woman Sure. 1.00

02:29:49.000 writes online or writes an article or appears at a town hall and she says,

02:29:54.000 what can I do? I am struggling. The answer is you should have took them to a better school.

02:29:59.000 Sure. That worries me. Why take away the option?

02:30:02.000 Because I think there's a better solution to the same problem. We just invest in these communities.

02:30:07.000 Also, we have to keep in mind, if a lot of people choose to move to different school districts, or like take their kids there, whatever, you know, the school district that's already there is going to be even worse, because these schools get funding based on, you know, participation.

02:30:22.000 They're going to get cut more and more, meaning it'll be even worse for the people who don't have the option to go to the other ones.

02:30:27.000 I say, why enable people to leave their wasteland and blame them if they don't when we could just fix the wasteland?

02:30:36.000 So this gets into the bigger question about socialism, I suppose.

02:30:39.000 Why I'm not a fan of socialism.

02:30:41.000 I'm in favor of a mixed economy.

02:30:43.000 I'll get you one day.

02:30:45.000 No, no, no.

02:30:46.000 Mixed economy, I think we need regulation, but I think we need people to freely trade.

02:30:52.000 And the issue I take with schools, for instance, is that when they have problems, we just dump more money into it as if a general investment fixes it.

02:31:00.000 The problem, though, is we say, okay, what about review boards?

02:31:03.000 What if we have like a review of the expenditures?

02:31:06.000 Nobody wants to be the person to cut the job or to gut the schools.

02:31:10.000 And then when people actually do, they complain the schools are being gutted.

02:31:14.000 If the school isn't functioning properly, and I shouldn't say school, just government spending in general, what we tend to see, like in Chicago, for instance, is you get a wound.

02:31:24.000 This is a way to describe it.

02:31:24.000 You get a wound in your society where you have people who are suffering or struggling.

02:31:29.000 We put a Band-Aid on it.

02:31:30.000 We say, we're going to provide funding in this area to try and solve the problem.

02:31:34.000 A few years ago, buying this house and going, I don't know, throw more money into it.

02:31:37.000 And they put another Band-Aid on top of a Band-Aid.

02:31:38.000 Eventually, you just have a festering wound.

02:31:40.000 It's never been solved.

02:31:40.000 With a lot of Band-Aids.

02:31:42.000 What do you mean?

02:31:44.000 Because they keep trying this.

02:31:45.000 I don't disagree, by the way.

02:31:46.000 Throwing money at schools doesn't work.

02:31:48.000 I think we've seen this time and time and time again.

02:31:49.000 But not just schools.

02:31:49.000 Everything.

02:31:50.000 Right.

02:31:50.000 Well, there are some, like, for example, like the more you give like the EPA money, they can like more reliable testing or whatever.

02:31:57.000 But generally speaking, yeah, I think like schools in particular.

02:32:00.000 And the reason for that is because schools aren't a product of the money that goes into them.

02:32:04.000 Schools are a product of the minds that are inside of them, from administration to teachers to the students.

02:32:08.000 And the issue is minds born under broken circumstances are just more fragile.

02:32:12.000 That's just how it is.

02:32:13.000 Money on its own is not the solution.

02:32:15.000 What I'd like to see, the pipe dreaming here, is a proper public works program instituted in certain districts in this country.

02:32:22.000 A lot of the big issue that we have here is that the reason these kids don't care about school is because they know nothing's going to come from it.

02:32:29.000 A lot of the people in their neighborhoods end up burnt out druggies anyway with absolutely nothing to do with their lives because there's just no opportunity.

02:32:36.000 Public works programs, you have to invest in the community not by paying private contractors to do it, but by paying the inhabitants of that community.

02:32:44.000 Fair, healthy salaries.

02:32:46.000 You need to have, um, works up there.

02:32:48.000 You can have, for example, um, revitalization of the rails and the roads and the public transportation.

02:32:54.000 People become less reliant on cars.

02:32:55.000 I mean, they have to pay less car payments.

02:32:57.000 There are so many things that you can do to these neighborhoods.

02:32:59.000 And this is class-based.

02:33:00.000 I don't want this to be like a black or a white thing. 1.00

02:33:02.000 There are white communities in this country that are struggling.

02:33:04.000 And I think that if, with these steps, we can We can, I don't know man, just the idea of an America where it's like, here's a quarter of the country, we just don't go there.

02:33:14.000 You can invest in new kinds of roads made out of bitumen which will last for like decades, but they like planned obsolescence.

02:33:20.000 They want to build things that will break so that they can spend more money on it again.

02:33:24.000 Corporations do.

02:33:25.000 Yeah, and that's where the money's coming from.

02:33:26.000 Politicians want to be under budget.

02:33:27.000 And they want to be friends of the corporation, so.

02:33:30.000 So, I mean look, there's a lot of problems.

02:33:32.000 I want to say, can I say one thing quickly about socialism?

02:33:34.000 I don't mean to interrupt, I apologize.

02:33:36.000 I was going to say it's great, it's fantastic.

02:33:38.000 Yeah, so let me just talk about that for five.

02:33:40.000 What I'm in favor of is something called a worker's state.

02:33:43.000 This is called by some people a dictatorship of the proletariat, which is a horrible term because it was termed before the term dictatorship meant what it currently means.

02:33:51.000 But it essentially means I just want to state where the workers have power.

02:33:54.000 That doesn't mean bring out the guillotines or anything.

02:33:56.000 It just means that when I think of like, what is a good country?

02:34:00.000 Like what is a good democracy or good republic look like to me?

02:34:03.000 I imagine one where the people inside of it have a lot of control over what goes on in a way that's responsibly

02:34:09.000 channeled It's not just like crazy, you know will of the masses stuff

02:34:12.000 and one of the big issues to me Is that as you just pointed out?

02:34:16.000 Corporations have a lot of power in this country and we defer to them quite a bit of government power as well

02:34:21.000 Much in the way that the old monarchies did with with mercantilism, you know

02:34:25.000 You want to do an East India Trading Company spice run, you know

02:34:28.000 You get the King's Guard to help you.

02:34:30.000 You get that fleet.

02:34:31.000 Because the state is invested in the corporation succeeding, and the corporation makes a lot of money off that mutual partnership.

02:34:37.000 But if these corporations, or these construction companies, or even these schools, frankly, are being run by people from the community who have a lot

02:34:46.000 of internal democratic control within it.

02:34:49.000 I think that could go a long way towards fixing this problem we see where we just put money

02:34:53.000 into these problems and it just burns through it falls through.

02:34:56.000 I think one of the problems we have with with all government spending is that we don't know

02:35:00.000 how they've had to fail them whereas with businesses they mostly just fail.

02:35:05.000 The big problem I see with the way things are going right now, for one, I think a lot of the critiques of capitalism are more about the massive corporate structure and the imbalance of power.

02:35:14.000 That once you reach a certain threshold of capital or wealth, you just own the system.

02:35:19.000 You will never be poor.

02:35:20.000 You will never fail again.

02:35:22.000 Your kids will never fail.

02:35:23.000 I mean, that's not necessarily true.

02:35:24.000 There's generational wealth fades.

02:35:26.000 Right, right.

02:35:26.000 Small businesses fail all the time.

02:35:29.000 But if you're an ultra-wealthy person, you keep pumping money in until you figure it out.

02:35:33.000 Or lobby to get subsidies, or tax breaks, and then you just forever.

02:35:38.000 So these are the two issues I see, and it's interesting because this argument is actually more of a classical, I guess, left and right argument of the days of yesteryear, ten years ago, when it was like government versus corporations.

02:35:50.000 you know, during like Occupy, you had a lot of people on the left saying the government can help

02:35:54.000 us, we need these programs, and the right was like we need the free market, we need the corporate

02:35:58.000 solutions, and I'm like both are problems in different ways.

02:36:02.000 Massive multinational corporations.

02:36:04.000 You're both wrong. 0.98

02:36:05.000 Right, you're both just so awful. Government and massive corporations.

02:36:09.000 We want small government and small business. So I like a mixed economy.

02:36:14.000 I think we need to figure out how we do government programs in a way that if they fail, they fail, and we need to make sure we don't have massive multinational corporations with no interest in helping the people, but selling them out because they can get better laws to violate human rights in other countries, where they can just hire people for a quarter, and then have them do, you know, essentially slave labor, and then sell garbage to the American people at a marked-up price, and then become...

02:36:36.000 But this is the final stage, right?

02:36:39.000 And one problem I have, a lot of people say this is globalism.

02:36:42.000 I critique this strongly.

02:36:43.000 This would happen exactly the same if we locked off all borders for corporations.

02:36:48.000 Because one of the most unequal periods of American history was the Gilded Age at the beginning of the 20th century.

02:36:54.000 And we were highly protectionist, highly isolationist at that point in time.

02:36:59.000 But high taxes though, like really high taxes.

02:37:01.000 Hey, listen.

02:37:02.000 I'm not besmirching those, necessarily.

02:37:04.000 But at the time, the problem isn't the internationalism.

02:37:09.000 I believe that corporations and governments should be able to work together on an international scale.

02:37:14.000 The issue is, they're not doing it for us.

02:37:16.000 They have a completely separate set—Marxists call this class interest between the bourgeois and the proletariat.

02:37:22.000 What does your average parole, an average worker, want?

02:37:24.000 They want clean roads.

02:37:25.000 They want decent, low crime.

02:37:27.000 You know, good schooling, good job, all that.

02:37:28.000 You know, they want water running to their house.

02:37:31.000 None of these systems benefit the bourgeois.

02:37:33.000 None of these systems benefit the ultra-wealthy.

02:37:35.000 They don't go to public schools.

02:37:36.000 They don't drive on roads.

02:37:37.000 They don't drink tap water.

02:37:39.000 They don't need to invest in these programs because they aren't a part of them.

02:37:43.000 How would you define socialism?

02:37:46.000 Or, yeah, we'll start with that.

02:37:47.000 How do you define socialism?

02:37:48.000 Socialism is an economic system where the workers control the means of production, so you have democratic worker control of the businesses, and you've decommodified at least a significant portion of society.

02:38:00.000 So, like, you no longer produce a given commodity or service for the purpose of selling it.

02:38:05.000 It's provided free of cost, essentially.

02:38:08.000 How would you define capitalism?

02:38:10.000 I would say that laissez-faire capitalism, at least, is a free market system whereby private ownership of capital is afforded to essentially every citizen, and that the civic structuring of the society is done in such a way as to maximize the economic benefit of the proliferation of the free market.

02:38:34.000 Where on, uh, well actually, so how would you define left and right?

02:38:37.000 I'm trying to, I'm trying to just create... Like economically, or socially, or?

02:38:41.000 So, uh, I guess economically.

02:38:44.000 To be honest, I've thought about this more and more.

02:38:46.000 I don't know if there is an economic left and right.

02:38:49.000 I think most people who care about economics want the same basic thing, which is good life for as many people as possible.

02:38:54.000 And I feel like we just have different ideas on how to achieve that.

02:38:57.000 And maybe that, the implementation, is the left-right element.

02:39:01.000 But I don't think the left is like more government, the right is less government.

02:39:04.000 I think that generally speaking, left-leaning people want as much power in the hands of as many people as possible, and right-leaning people believe certain individuals are deserving of higher levels of power that they use to adjudicate.

02:39:17.000 The reason I bring this up is because, you know, you mentioning far-right early on.

02:39:21.000 I don't think anybody knows what far-left or right actually means.

02:39:26.000 They're definitely really arbitrary terms.

02:39:27.000 I try, I should say, I was lazy of me to use that.

02:39:30.000 I try not to use that very often because they are necessarily definitions which require sort of like immediate codification and it changes depending on the context of the conversation.

02:39:39.000 I think defining far left is actually kind of easy.

02:39:43.000 Because you tend to have tendency, not absolute.

02:39:46.000 You have leftists who are adamant in socialism, communism, and alongside that typically fall some kind of social progressivism.

02:39:58.000 Typically, not always.

02:39:59.000 You have the dirtbag left, which are not woke, and you have the woke left, so there is a divergence there.

02:40:04.000 But when you come to the right, Individualist?

02:40:06.000 make sense at all.

02:40:07.000 I think that what defines the right individualist.

02:40:09.000 I mean, you're looking at collectivism and individualism.

02:40:12.000 The way we just like white nationalists are collectivists.

02:40:15.000 They're not individualists at all.

02:40:16.000 And many of them are authoritarian collectivists.

02:40:20.000 So it's like we call them far right, though. What does that really mean?

02:40:23.000 Then we say that these, you know, and cap extremists are far right, but

02:40:27.000 they absolutely in no way align with white nationalists.

02:40:30.000 Maybe it's just time to do away with those ideas.

02:40:33.000 Left and right.

02:40:34.000 We should eliminate all conservatism.

02:40:36.000 Yes, ban it! 1.00

02:40:37.000 I'm the school.

02:40:38.000 I actually, I think this could be my partisanship showing.

02:40:40.000 No, the left and the right is what I meant.

02:40:41.000 Get rid of that.

02:40:41.000 No, I gotcha, I gotcha.

02:40:43.000 This could be my partisanship showing, possibly, but I think one of the reasons for this is because the right is a lot more idiosyncratic than the left is in a lot of ways.

02:40:51.000 Most left-leaning values were hammered into books 150 years ago, you know?

02:40:56.000 Like, if you talk to, like, your average socialist or communist online, You're probably going to find that a lot of them have an investment in some type of theory or literature that is very specific and very laid out, and you can agree or disagree, but it was written there, you know?

02:41:09.000 And a lot of right-leaning ideas, I feel, are more of, again, I understand this is a product of my partisanship, but sort of an emotive response to a given set of material conditions.

02:41:18.000 Same argument goes the other way, man.

02:41:20.000 I know, and it really depends on perspective.

02:41:22.000 Like nationalism, for example.

02:41:24.000 Very few people subscribe to the intellectual tradition of nationalism.

02:41:28.000 Yet, we have a lot of nationalists in this country.

02:41:31.000 What do you mean by the intellectual tradition?

02:41:32.000 Well, the intellectual tradition of nationalism came along with the codification of the nation-state, and the idea was that the individual will should be subservient to that of the nation, because the nation was the sort of amalgamation of the people's will.

02:41:45.000 The individual dies, the nation lives.

02:41:47.000 Really weird Orwellian stuff, you know?

02:41:49.000 Trump supporters.

02:41:50.000 That's like authoritarian nationalism.

02:41:52.000 The evolution of monarchy.

02:41:53.000 So you have a libertarian argument over borders.

02:41:56.000 And some people are like, no, true libertarian supports borders.

02:41:59.000 No, you can't be libertarian without borders because how do you protect your ideas?

02:42:02.000 Like, I see it from left, right, up, down.

02:42:05.000 Everybody says, you know, the left this, the right that.

02:42:08.000 I think in terms of trying to actually identify the right and the left, you've got right in terms,

02:42:14.000 right and left in terms of social values, tradition versus progressivism, traditionalism.

02:42:20.000 And then you have economics, right, laissez-faire capitalist

02:42:23.000 versus left socialist.

02:42:25.000 The problem is people use them interchangeably and they essentially end up meaning nothing.

02:42:30.000 This is one of the things that I really respected about Bernie Sanders.

02:42:34.000 People disagree with me on this.

02:42:35.000 I think there are a lot of people in this country who are just, let's be real, just don't like black people very much and that it forms a lot of their political opinions.

02:42:42.000 And I don't think there's anything I can do about that with policy or with my channel or anything like that.

02:42:46.000 But there is something the vast, vast, vast majority of the people in this country want and care about, and that is a good life for their children.

02:42:54.000 I think virtually everyone.

02:42:56.000 You'll have some antinatalists now and again, but almost everyone wants that.

02:43:00.000 And Bernie Sanders was good at tapping into that.

02:43:02.000 Bernie Sanders did not align himself with any, like, nouveau-woke tendencies with regards to progressivism.

02:43:08.000 He, well, he would support, but his main messaging was very consistent all the time.

02:43:13.000 Until he got on the debate stage and said, when you're white, you don't know what it's like to be poor.

02:43:17.000 I agree.

02:43:17.000 Wait, wait, wait.

02:43:18.000 I remember that.

02:43:19.000 That was bad.

02:43:20.000 That was a slip up.

02:43:21.000 I know if I talked to him and he was like, yeah, of course they're white people.

02:43:24.000 He gave in.

02:43:25.000 Well, he gave in.

02:43:26.000 Well, what do you mean gave in?

02:43:27.000 Like, now he endorsed Hillary Clinton.

02:43:30.000 Now he... I voted for Hillary Clinton.

02:43:33.000 I'm farther to the... Oh, why?

02:43:35.000 Because she wasn't Trump.

02:43:36.000 No, come on. 0.85

02:43:37.000 She's worse than Trump.

02:43:39.000 I understand Biden, at least.

02:43:40.000 No.

02:43:41.000 Well, wait.

02:43:42.000 I think that Hillary Clinton is an odious person, but when it comes to basic policy issues like climate change or like what economically you're going to do for the country, I think the Democrats just generally have a better plan for this country than the Republicans. 0.52

02:43:53.000 But we had the best economy in generations.

02:43:56.000 It's a continuation of Obama-era policies.

02:43:58.000 What policy did he implement?

02:43:59.000 So, uh, we had tariffs.

02:44:02.000 We had strict border controls.

02:44:03.000 He bailed out Freddie May and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and tariffed trillions of dollars in the economy.

02:44:09.000 So it looked great.

02:44:10.000 It was a terrible economy.

02:44:11.000 One at a time, the tariffs were maligned by virtually every economist in the country, and he has had to spend an enormous amount of money with subsidies.

02:44:21.000 Right, exactly.

02:44:22.000 So I don't think that had anything to do with the economy.

02:44:23.000 That could be considered a detriment.

02:44:25.000 When it comes to closing down the border, I have seen no evidence that that's improved the economy.

02:44:29.000 All of the unemployment rate, the GDP, this was a straight-line continuation of Obama-era policies.

02:44:33.000 Obama said you wouldn't reach these numbers, and then he did.

02:44:36.000 Sure, I don't think that changed anything I said, though.

02:44:38.000 Factories came back to Michigan.

02:44:39.000 That he massively overstated the extent to which the manufacturing industry came back.

02:44:45.000 He said it was like tens of thousands.

02:44:46.000 It was like a couple thousand.

02:44:47.000 And even then, that's your goal?

02:44:50.000 Like a couple thousand?

02:44:51.000 Whenever we get a presidential change, I remember this since I was little.

02:44:54.000 It's like, oh, actually the success of this president is from the past president.

02:44:59.000 Everybody always does this.

02:45:00.000 We look at policies, though.

02:45:03.000 If so, Obama did inherit a mess from George W. Bush.

02:45:06.000 This isn't just like, oh, it was because he came after Bush.

02:45:09.000 It was a objective thing that had happened under Bush's presidency.

02:45:13.000 And Obama's policies allowed the economy to get back on track in a straight line trend that continued into Trump's years.

02:45:20.000 I haven't seen any evidence that Trump's policies meaningfully affected that trend, with the exception of his handling of the coronavirus pandemic, which did end up spiking everything back into the into the touchdown zone.

02:45:30.000 And of course, that spike Down.

02:45:33.000 Would have happened under any precedent.

02:45:35.000 It's a pandemic.

02:45:36.000 But recovery has been in large part hampered by a non-existent federal response and the tone-deafness of, again, like, we have conquered coronavirus the day after the worst record number of cases since it all started.

02:45:50.000 I just, this type of leadership, even if we're to leave aside populism and whatever, I think populism flourishes when people are happy and healthy because it gives them time to think and it gives them room to breathe.

02:46:02.000 And for that reason, I think we need four years of Competent, milquetoast, neoliberal, centrist governance under Biden.

02:46:11.000 He's not competent.

02:46:13.000 Moderately competent.

02:46:14.000 He's not competent, and he's... He's diluted.

02:46:16.000 He's an angry racist, man. 0.99

02:46:17.000 It's gonna be Kamala Harris. 1.00

02:46:18.000 Plastic as she comes.

02:46:21.000 Yeah, but I don't... She locked up people and held them past their parole days. 1.00

02:46:24.000 Yeah, she's terrible.

02:46:25.000 For cheap labor.

02:46:26.000 Neither of them are competent, that's the problem.

02:46:28.000 Well, they're certainly more competent than Trump.

02:46:31.000 Wait, wait, wait, I just want to say, again, I'm not defending the moral character of any of these politicians, but if we want to go back-to-back, policy-by-policy, promise-by-promise, absolutely, I'll wrap...

02:46:39.000 It's an abusive relationship you keep going back to, man.

02:46:42.000 You're going back to Trump.

02:46:43.000 No, no, no, no.

02:46:44.000 I'm not going back to Trump.

02:46:45.000 I didn't vote for Trump in 2016. 0.97

02:46:46.000 I'm saying right now, I'm sitting back with my feet up watching a bulldog trash around the ivory tower and make me laugh. 0.95

02:46:51.000 People are dying while you laugh. 0.85

02:46:53.000 No, you brought this up earlier.

02:46:54.000 It was a really great point.

02:46:55.000 We have no metric of success for COVID.

02:46:58.000 I look at what Fauci said in March when Trump was taking action.

02:47:00.000 He said no one could do better.

02:47:01.000 Why would I now change my opinion on this?

02:47:03.000 Because he said that once and because he's in a political position where he has to say things that are positive.

02:47:09.000 Oh, Betsy, I think she's scratching her face. 1.00

02:47:14.000 We had several governors praise Trump for his response in, I think it was May.

02:47:18.000 Look, look, look.

02:47:18.000 A quarter of the deaths from COVID worldwide in a country with four percent... Nursing homes where the governors of Democrat-controlled states put sick people, killing... That's not, wait, wait, wait, again, that's not good.

02:47:27.000 I feel like we're engaging in whataboutism right now.

02:47:30.000 The fact of the matter remains that this country has more federal power and more wealth than literally any other country in the history of this planet.

02:47:37.000 That's... No, no, no.

02:47:38.000 These other countries don't have the state structure we do where the president is inhibited from taking actions.

02:47:44.000 How is he... He absolutely had the ability to do a national plan.

02:47:47.000 It was... Wait.

02:47:48.000 It was... I'm sorry.

02:47:49.000 I can't engage in this apologism.

02:47:50.000 You say you dislike both... Apologism?

02:47:51.000 Apologism.

02:47:52.000 Wait, wait, wait.

02:47:53.000 You say that you, like, don't like either candidate, but the Tenth Amendment doesn't prevent a national response to the COVID crisis.

02:47:59.000 Trump would have to invoke serious powers.

02:48:01.000 Yes, people were encouraging him to evoke the war powers because this is a time more people have died during this than they've died over the past 50 years.

02:48:09.000 You're making a political statement about whether the Republicans who wanted it or who didn't want it, the Democrats who did, one side was right or wrong.

02:48:15.000 I am, yes.

02:48:16.000 What I'm saying is, you made the point earlier, we have no bar of success on what this would have looked like, because it is what it is.

02:48:22.000 Yeah, but that's the thing.

02:48:23.000 That's the apologism.

02:48:24.000 Just because we don't have a bar where we can objectively determine how well Hillary would have done, doesn't mean we can't criticize.

02:48:30.000 So it's do you like Trump or do you not?

02:48:31.000 No, it's not.

02:48:32.000 We know that this country has done terribly.

02:48:34.000 We know this administration lies about it.

02:48:37.000 We know we have 4% of the world population and a quarter of the total number of deaths from COVID.

02:48:43.000 Hold on.

02:48:43.000 Wait, Trump is the president of the whole country, Democrats included.

02:48:45.000 you got to take out the nursing home deaths and then tell me what about the 94% that were 2.6

02:48:50.000 comorbidities. No that's not an issue. Trump is the president of the whole country, Democrats

02:48:59.000 included. The Democratic governors and everything they do is all part of Trump's overall...

02:49:03.000 Trump can't control the governors.

02:49:05.000 For good reason?

02:49:05.000 control the governors, he can control our national response, which has been non-existent.

02:49:09.000 He's lied frequently about the nature of the coronavirus, the extent to which it will harm

02:49:14.000 this country.

02:49:15.000 We know he wouldn't...

02:49:16.000 For good reason?

02:49:17.000 No, not for good reason.

02:49:18.000 Do you think a panic would have been better?

02:49:20.000 I think being honest would have been preferable.

02:49:22.000 Wait, you earlier on Twitter, you were criticizing Fauci for saying that masks weren't effective when we know now that they are, but you'll defend the President of the United States of America lying to the population?

02:49:32.000 For repeating?

02:49:32.000 No, Fauci never said that COVID would be no big deal.

02:49:36.000 Trump was informed.

02:49:36.000 Yeah, he did.

02:49:36.000 He actually did.

02:49:37.000 He actually did.

02:49:38.000 You need to watch the videos, because he did.

02:49:40.000 And the video was put out with all of Fauci's statements.

02:49:44.000 And Fauci, I've criticized Fauci over and over again.

02:49:47.000 Early on, I was very much- And not Trump.

02:49:49.000 Because Trump's repeating what Fauci says!

02:49:51.000 Trump does not just- wait, they fight constantly!

02:49:53.000 No, early on they didn't.

02:49:55.000 Early on, Trump made the mistake of just parroting Fauci, and I got to the point where- He did not exclusively parrot Fauci early on.

02:50:03.000 Wait, I can watch the clips.

02:50:04.000 Wait, I understand there was a lot of complexity here when it comes to the information that was disseminated and who did it, but that doesn't change the fact we know Trump was given information and then lied about it.

02:50:14.000 And your opinion is- That's not an opinion.

02:50:16.000 Yes, and your opinion is, he shouldn't have, and mine is, I don't know, maybe there would have been a panic, maybe there wouldn't.

02:50:25.000 Trump made a call, and you're criticizing him, and we don't know what the result would have been.

02:50:28.000 You've criticized Fauci for what he said about the masks.

02:50:31.000 How can you say, Trump, well, maybe it would have caused a panic, but then not say the same thing about Fauci when he said that masks weren't effective sometime in March.

02:50:41.000 We should have worn masks the entire time.

02:50:43.000 Are you sure?

02:50:43.000 We don't know.

02:50:44.000 Are they made of cloth and dirty?

02:50:46.000 We don't know if a panic would have destroyed everything and killed 10 times the people.

02:50:50.000 How would that, being honest about the extent, first of all hundreds of thousands are dead and they're dying in large part because we don't have a consistent national policy about social distancing and about mask wearing.

02:51:02.000 And obesity.

02:51:05.000 I don't know.

02:51:09.000 Trump does not have the constitutional authority to issue a mask mandate.

02:51:12.000 He has.

02:51:13.000 Wait, first of all, he has war powers.

02:51:14.000 He absolutely can.

02:51:15.000 He uses executive actions all the time.

02:51:17.000 This is not something that he would do.

02:51:19.000 This would not be legally challenged.

02:51:20.000 He was being called for to do this, even by the Democrats.

02:51:23.000 He was being called to do this.

02:51:24.000 He disbanded the pandemic response team.

02:51:28.000 He removed people.

02:51:28.000 And consolidated it.

02:51:30.000 No, he withdrew their power.

02:51:32.000 So who did he consolidate then?

02:51:34.000 What?

02:51:34.000 See if I can find it.

02:51:35.000 I don't want to pull up the fact check on this.

02:51:37.000 Trump consolidated the roles of the pandemic response team.

02:51:40.000 Factcheck.org.

02:51:41.000 I've been through this like a million times.

02:51:44.000 So Trump did disband the pandemic response team.

02:51:46.000 Where did they go?

02:51:47.000 And then allocated those functions into a group of people.

02:51:50.000 Wait, was that Pence's task force?

02:51:52.000 No, this was the existing CDC.

02:51:55.000 The existing CDC that he defunded by like a massive percentage?

02:51:58.000 So, factcheck.org, the way they put it was Trump was trying to streamline the process early on, and that it's been weaponized by partisans to make it seem like he just straight up got rid of it.

02:52:08.000 So he got rid of it, then took its functions and put it into the CDC, and he's cut the CDC's budget.

02:52:13.000 No, no, no, we gotta pull up, no, it's factcheck.org, it's trumpdismanned.

02:52:17.000 I'm familiar with the site factcheck.org.

02:52:21.000 I mean, do we want to look at, like, CDC cuts or what he did with the people in Wuhan that he pulled out?

02:52:29.000 What I'm trying to talk about is the totality of evidence that he's mishandled this pandemic.

02:52:33.000 And it's interesting to me that you were extremely unwilling to criticize him for that.

02:52:36.000 that.

02:52:37.000 Because what's the alternative?

02:52:38.000 The alternative...

02:52:39.000 What would have happened in any other circumstance where we have no control group?

02:52:44.000 What am I supposed to say?

02:52:45.000 So wait, how many would have...

02:52:46.000 Well if Trump were to backflip, he'd save a life.

02:52:47.000 How many would have had to have died before you would criticize him?

02:52:51.000 I don't know.

02:52:52.000 Give me a number.

02:52:53.000 Wait, so you could have led a million?

02:52:55.000 So what you're telling me is that we have no idea what would have happened if Trump did anything else, and now we're supposed to make a determination?

02:53:02.000 You're making a tautological statement.

02:53:03.000 That's how the universe works.

02:53:04.000 We don't ever know what would happen if other things didn't.

02:53:06.000 So what am I supposed to say when Fauci early on praised him, when governors early on praised him, now they're critical of him in an election year?

02:53:12.000 First of all, the praise of governors is irrelevant.

02:53:14.000 Are governors health experts?

02:53:15.000 Second of all, Fauci praised him a couple of times.

02:53:18.000 He's also under a lot of political pressure to do what Trump says, or otherwise there's a very decent chance of him getting canned.

02:53:24.000 Fauci has made plenty of statements which Trump has later contradicted.

02:53:27.000 Trump has been back and forth on the mask issue, going so far as to make fun of people for wearing masks.

02:53:32.000 I do not have the expertise nor the clairvoyance to say if only Trump did X, Y would have happened.

02:53:38.000 Wait, but then you can't criticize anything.

02:53:40.000 What if we didn't go into the Afghanistan war?

02:53:42.000 What if some terrible thing would have happened if we hadn't done that?

02:53:44.000 What if we hadn't gone into Iraq?

02:53:45.000 No, no, no.

02:53:46.000 I think we can objectively say, wow, that war was bad.

02:53:48.000 We shouldn't have done that.

02:53:49.000 Yeah, I can say this is objectively very bad.

02:53:51.000 We should be doing something different.

02:53:52.000 And I can say Trump should have done these things, but I can't get overly angry about making assumptions on what I think would or wouldn't have happened.

02:53:58.000 So you are of the opinion that you should not be able to criticize a sitting president as long as you don't have... I think you're using semantic arguments.

02:54:03.000 This is not semantic at all.

02:54:04.000 Because I actually said you made a good point and...

02:54:06.000 We don't have a measure of success for what Trump should have done.

02:54:09.000 So what's happening now is, you're using hindsight to make it seem like you could have done a better job than he did.

02:54:16.000 Right.

02:54:16.000 he lied at the time. Wait, I'm not the president. I'm not saying I could have done a better

02:54:20.000 job. I'm saying that he messed up. And if you actually are anti-estab— 0.80

02:54:23.000 Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. 0.97

02:54:25.000 If you actually are anti-establishment, as you claim to be, you are shockingly unwilling to criticize Trump on some of the most objectively... That's not... That's ridiculous.

02:54:32.000 Wait, you listed the tariffs that he did, even though it destroyed American farming for essentially no benefit, as a positive... As a policy he did... To the economy, as a positive... And then we ended up with a good economy.

02:54:42.000 As the... No, we had the good economy.

02:54:43.000 27 trillion in debt right now.

02:54:45.000 As we had the good economy.

02:54:46.000 You mentioned that as a positive, even though all that did was hurt American workers.

02:54:49.000 You are willing to defend him... How did that hurt American workers?

02:54:51.000 The subsidies that we needed to provide farmers because they were being destroyed, the manufacturing that was being hurt from our inability to import- But the manufacturing came back.

02:54:59.000 Also, there's a flood.

02:55:00.000 So Trump threatened the auto industry to put tariffs on their vehicles manufactured overseas, and then they brought their factories back. 1.00

02:55:06.000 We brought back a shockingly low number of jobs that don't- The point I was making about panic was I don't know what would have happened if Trump caused a panic by coming out and saying, you know, America, there's a dangerous pandemic coming.

02:55:17.000 Why not constantly downplaying it?

02:55:20.000 Like he did.

02:55:20.000 This is going to be over any second.

02:55:22.000 We're rounding the curve now.

02:55:23.000 The heat's going to get rid of it.

02:55:24.000 Constant statement after statement.

02:55:25.000 Why didn't George W. Bush come out and say, keep shopping, keep shopping?

02:55:28.000 I don't like George W. Bush.

02:55:29.000 I'm not saying you do.

02:55:29.000 I'm saying there are presidents, and there is a decision to make, and sometimes they're hard, and we don't know what would have happened if they panicked or otherwise.

02:55:38.000 This is the fundamental issue that I have.

02:55:40.000 You're coming out and saying, Trump should have told everyone.

02:55:43.000 Maybe he should have.

02:55:44.000 I don't know.

02:55:44.000 If you actually consistently held to this, then you would never be able to criticize anything a president does because you don't know what would have happened if they hadn't done it.

02:55:51.000 That's not an argument.

02:55:52.000 You're not arguing what I'm saying.

02:55:53.000 Wait, hold on.

02:55:53.000 I would like to.

02:55:54.000 What I'm saying is your standard for assessing the validity of this behavior is nonsensical.

02:55:58.000 It's a panic bed.

02:56:00.000 You don't know that it would have caused a panic.

02:56:02.000 Trump said he wants to avoid a panic.

02:56:04.000 Why not not lie about it?

02:56:05.000 Why not say, hey, why not say we need to buckle down as a nation and we need to recognize that we need to be wearing masks and socially distancing?

02:56:13.000 Yeah, he could have done that.

02:56:13.000 Yeah, absolutely.

02:56:14.000 Okay, that's great.

02:56:15.000 So wait, why isn't it okay for Fauci to have been wrong about the mask?

02:56:20.000 Because he didn't want to incite a panic.

02:56:22.000 That's not incorrect.

02:56:23.000 That's great.

02:56:24.000 So you're in favor of Fauci saying that you didn't need to wear masks?

02:56:27.000 No.

02:56:27.000 I think it's like you're purposefully misunderstanding to make an argument.

02:56:31.000 No, the argument that I'm making, fundamentally— You can't criticize Trump over masks and then act like Fauci was a saint the entire time.

02:56:39.000 I have never done that.

02:56:40.000 I'm not saying—it's the rhetorical use of other people.

02:56:42.000 You're talking with me.

02:56:44.000 If people are going to look at Trump and say, Trump said all these things, and then I can go back and see that Fauci was the one who said them to Trump and Trump repeated them, then my issue is maybe we could have done better.

02:56:55.000 Maybe we could have done worse.

02:56:57.000 Trump banned travel early on.

02:56:58.000 He formed the task force.

02:56:59.000 He brought Fauci on in the first place.

02:57:01.000 And the New York Times is estimating if the infection rate reached a certain level, it could even be as high as 6 million.

02:57:05.000 First of all, nobody ever knows that we don't have vision into alternate futures.

02:57:12.000 We have to make reasonable assessments based on the fact that we are doing terribly.

02:57:15.000 This is exactly what I mean, and this is the issue that I have.

02:57:22.000 You claim to have a disaffected, anti-establishment view of all of this, but your channel is hyper-partisan against the left, and then when anyone criticizes Trump, you'll either defend him harshly or you'll back up and say, well, they're all bad.

02:57:37.000 You are taking the choice to defend Trump.

02:57:39.000 You are the partisan here.

02:57:41.000 You're not a distanced anti-authoritarian.

02:57:43.000 You are standing with him, and you are saying, yes, I am anti-authoritarian.

02:57:47.000 I am anti-establishment.

02:57:49.000 But also, we don't know if him lying to the American people was bad.

02:57:52.000 It could have caused a panic.

02:57:54.000 So should I make a video right now where I just scream about Nancy Pelosi causing all of the problems?

02:57:58.000 I haven't done that.

02:58:00.000 I don't know what that has to do with what I just said.

02:58:01.000 This is whataboutism in the extreme.

02:58:03.000 You can't do it.

02:58:03.000 You can't accept criticisms of Trump.

02:58:04.000 You can criticize those people.

02:58:06.000 This is whataboutism in the extreme. You can't do it. You can't accept criticisms of Trump.

02:58:11.000 You can't tell me that I'm whatabouting by...

02:58:13.000 You can criticize those people. You can criticize those people.

02:58:16.000 You only criticize what about Trump. What about Trump?

02:58:18.000 This is whataboutism.

02:58:19.000 You can criticize those people.

02:58:21.000 I criticize those people.

02:58:22.000 I love the paradox of you whatabouting me on Trump and then claiming I'm whatabouting.

02:58:26.000 Let's talk about Trump lying.

02:58:27.000 Is that good or bad?

02:58:29.000 Well, that's my point.

02:58:30.000 You can't.

02:58:30.000 You keep defending him and backing up to other people.

02:58:32.000 It might have been good that he lied.

02:58:33.000 Do you want me to make a video where I go over how all of the Democrats screwed everything up?

02:58:38.000 I haven't made a video about Fauci and Mass.

02:58:40.000 I haven't made a video about Pelosi and Chinatown.

02:58:42.000 I haven't made a video about de Blasio.

02:58:43.000 What does this have to do with what I was saying?

02:58:44.000 You can if you want to.

02:58:45.000 You want to say that I say they're all bad?

02:58:47.000 They are all bad.

02:58:49.000 And I didn't make a video critiquing Pelosi the same as I did about de Blasio.

02:58:52.000 I've mentioned all of it and Trump in a sort of, we don't know what would have happened.

02:58:56.000 But I'll tell you what, if you want to say Trump was bad for the things he did, so were they.

02:59:00.000 And I haven't dedicated an entire thing to it.

02:59:01.000 You are describing whataboutism right now.

02:59:04.000 Listen, it's this simple, okay?

02:59:06.000 If you actually... Wait, I would really like it if you would let me.

02:59:09.000 If you actually think they're all bad, you wouldn't be this uncomfortable with a conversation about how Trump messed up.

02:59:16.000 Who said I was uncomfortable?

02:59:17.000 Wait, hold on.

02:59:18.000 What I'm uncomfortable with is when I answer you, you change the subject and then use semantic arguments.

02:59:22.000 I'm trying to very specifically talk about Trump's failure.

02:59:25.000 I've already given you my answer on panic and you haven't let it go.

02:59:28.000 Your answer is that you don't think it's acceptable to criticize Trump because we don't have vision into an alternate universe.

02:59:35.000 No, that's not true at all. 0.99

02:59:36.000 I think Trump is an arrogant blagger who screwed tons of things up. 0.99

02:59:39.000 In this specific respect. 0.98

02:59:40.000 And I think you are partisan biased pro-Biden and you don't even know about half the things that have happened that you're criticizing Trump for.

02:59:47.000 Oh wait, I'm talking about Trump's handling of the coronavirus.

02:59:49.000 Right.

02:59:50.000 And so don't come to me and say you're hyper-partisan because you're saying I don't know about Trump when I also said I didn't know about Nancy Pelosi.

02:59:56.000 Wait, wait, wait, hold on.

02:59:58.000 Again, I don't know why you keep moving on.

03:00:00.000 We're talking about Trump and coronavirus?

03:00:02.000 I acknowledge my partisanship, by the way.

03:00:03.000 I'm totally fine with that.

03:00:04.000 You moved on and made a whataboutism statement about me saying, you criticize Democrats, but what about Trump?

03:00:09.000 Yes, because I was trying to explain to you my broader issue.

03:00:12.000 So don't use whataboutism claims against me.

03:00:14.000 That's not what whataboutism is.

03:00:15.000 Whataboutism is when you say, oh, you want to talk about this?

03:00:18.000 Well, what about this?

03:00:19.000 What I was trying to do... Yeah, I didn't do that.

03:00:21.000 You immediately jumped into how you hadn't made a video on Pelosi or Cuomo or what have you.

03:00:26.000 Because you claimed I was only defending Trump when I pointed out I also did not make a video about Pelosi and de Blasio.

03:00:32.000 But we're talking about Trump.

03:00:33.000 The point is... You brought up Pelosi.

03:00:34.000 You brought de Blasio.

03:00:35.000 You can't accuse me of whataboutism.

03:00:38.000 And then when I say, actually, I haven't criticized either of them, you say, that's whataboutism!

03:00:41.000 No, I'm not defending either.

03:00:42.000 He didn't lie about masks.

03:00:43.000 He lied about the severity to avoid a panic.

03:00:44.000 To keep the stock market from plummeting.

03:00:47.000 That's an opinion.

03:00:47.000 Do you think he did a good thing?

03:00:48.000 He didn't lie about masks.

03:00:49.000 He lied about the severity to avoid a panic.

03:00:51.000 To avoid a run on masks.

03:00:53.000 To keep the stock market from plummeting.

03:00:56.000 And that.

03:00:57.000 That's possible too.

03:00:58.000 That's an opinion.

03:00:59.000 All he said was to avoid a panic.

03:01:00.000 He fear mongers all the time.

03:01:01.000 He talks about how Antifa's going to burn down suburbs.

03:01:04.000 He doesn't care about a panic.

03:01:05.000 And then when Antifa went to the suburbs... No, no, no, no, no, no.

03:01:08.000 The CIA lies.

03:01:09.000 This is its job.

03:01:09.000 The president has to lie.

03:01:11.000 It's his job.

03:01:12.000 That's one of his duties is to lie when you need to lie.

03:01:16.000 Right, and we can criticize them when they do that.

03:01:18.000 Trump fearmongers constantly. 0.98

03:01:19.000 Every rally of his is a treatise on how America is about to be destroyed by far-left lunatics. 0.52

03:01:23.000 I don't think he has a problem with panic.

03:01:25.000 I think he had a problem with panic being tied to his name.

03:01:27.000 Whether that be a product of the stock market dipping, which ended up happening anyway, that was pretty much inevitable given the consequences of the action.

03:01:35.000 Or whether that just be a matter of his personal image, which is also something presidents have to be concerned about, I think this is worthy of criticism.

03:01:41.000 But it's weird to me.

03:01:42.000 I agree with you.

03:01:43.000 By the metrics of this country's performance relative to other countries, we have done shockingly poorly.

03:01:49.000 Tell me the metrics on nursing homes.

03:01:51.000 Wait, I think that's bad too.

03:01:53.000 You can't just talk about Trump.

03:01:55.000 You have to bring up other things.

03:01:57.000 How many deaths were caused by the nursing homes, by the way?

03:01:59.000 I believe it was like 40% or some really large number.

03:02:02.000 Of the deaths in America?

03:02:04.000 Uh, can you pull up the numbers?

03:02:05.000 Yeah, I can look.

03:02:06.000 Do you mean, wait, I thought you were just referring to the New York- I think it was like 7,000 in New York.

03:02:10.000 Okay, so if you want to ignore that, we're looking at what, 218,000?

03:02:16.000 Look, even, again- If we're gonna compare the numbers, there is so much nuance in this discussion, and I think- He's the president.

03:02:22.000 What you are misunderstanding is, I think Trump has very serious problems.

03:02:28.000 I think he lies often.

03:02:30.000 I think he's a blagger.

03:02:31.000 He boasts he won't shut up.

03:02:33.000 And I think most people know he's got a mouth that he couldn't stop blabbing to save his own campaign.

03:02:38.000 I think he caused a lot of his own problems.

03:02:41.000 And there is an actual really great argument that he should have been honest with the American people.

03:02:45.000 This stemmed from me saying, I don't know.

03:02:48.000 And then you turned into, why won't you criticize the president?

03:02:50.000 Because I don't know what would have happened.

03:02:52.000 Well, first of all, the statement, I don't know, and the statement, I think there's an excellent argument for your point, are not the same statements even remotely.

03:02:58.000 You said there was no standard by which we could... There's no control group for what could have been done.

03:03:04.000 As I have clarified, there's no control group for anything like this, but we still have to be able to criticize.

03:03:09.000 So when I say stuff like, he lied, and he has downplayed relentlessly, even though he had information which suggested that would not be the case, and he has constantly scapegoated this onto China in a pathetic attempt, to avoid any responsibility or culpability for his actions or those of his administration, or the fact that he has done absolutely nothing to invoke war powers, and one of the few instances where even I, a left-leaning person, a socialist, would say is perfectly acceptable.

03:03:36.000 These are worthy criticisms, I think.

03:03:38.000 It seemed to me like you were being rather defensive about them.

03:03:40.000 What would he do with war powers?

03:03:41.000 Do you think he should have invoked the Insurrection Act against the riots when they were at their peak?

03:03:45.000 God, I hope not.

03:03:45.000 I'm sure they haven't.

03:03:46.000 I would like to know.

03:03:47.000 about coronavirus. What would he do with war power with coronavirus? Have 225,000

03:03:51.000 people died to riots? Can we pull up the numbers on that? I'm sure they haven't.

03:03:54.000 The question is at what point are you okay with authoritarianism?

03:03:58.000 First of all I don't think invoking war powers is the same kind of

03:04:01.000 authoritarianism. You said an executive order was. Yeah an executive order to ban

03:04:05.000 a type of speech for partisan purposes.

03:04:07.000 No, to ban trainings, and then you inflated it to be speech.

03:04:10.000 He didn't just ban the trainings.

03:04:11.000 He banned critical race theory.

03:04:12.000 Did he?

03:04:13.000 Do you actually know that?

03:04:14.000 Do you want to look at the language of the executive order?

03:04:16.000 Because I guarantee you it doesn't specifically say these trainings.

03:04:19.000 We both agree the trainings would be bad, but you brought it to a speech argument and then went off on First Amendment rights and everything.

03:04:25.000 Because the language of the executive order was not specifically targeting those training seminars.

03:04:29.000 You said earlier that Trump's use of executive orders was him expanding federal authority.

03:04:34.000 That is.

03:04:35.000 But now you're also arguing he should have overridden constitutional competition using war powers.

03:04:38.000 Wait, first of all, that's not overriding the Constitution.

03:04:40.000 That's a power delegated to the president in times of great need.

03:04:43.000 Second of all, I would say that's legitimate use of it.

03:04:45.000 I'm a pragmatist.

03:04:46.000 I'm a utilitarian.

03:04:47.000 So it's opinion.

03:04:48.000 No.

03:04:48.000 Wait, wait, wait.

03:04:48.000 I don't disagree.

03:04:49.000 All of it is opinion.

03:04:50.000 I know.

03:04:50.000 I think it's okay to use federal power to keep hundreds of thousands from dying due to a pandemic.

03:04:57.000 I think it's not okay when you're attacking an entire subset of academic critique because of some federal training programs.

03:05:04.000 I'm okay with X and Y. I don't think it's okay to use the police to arrest a child for dropping a lollipop stick in the ground.

03:05:13.000 I think it's okay for them to go after rapists and murderers.

03:05:15.000 There are contextual uses for state power that I think can be justified in different ways.

03:05:20.000 So the issue is, my opinion was, I don't know.

03:05:25.000 Should we criticize Trump for not telling the American people?

03:05:27.000 I don't know.

03:05:28.000 I don't know what would happen if a panic started.

03:05:29.000 All the other stuff I mentioned too, it wasn't just that.

03:05:31.000 It was also the constant downplaying.

03:05:33.000 It was also, even after people knew how severe it was.

03:05:35.000 That was literally it.

03:05:36.000 That was him trying to avoid a panic.

03:05:37.000 But then he kept doing it.

03:05:38.000 He said, I downplayed it because I didn't want to start a panic.

03:05:40.000 He kept not wanting to start a panic.

03:05:42.000 Every week he'd start it over again and be like, and we're going to get it next week.

03:05:45.000 In two weeks it'll be done.

03:05:46.000 I agree with you when he comes out and he puts out these videos where he's like, Antifa is coming.

03:05:50.000 Because clearly, I don't think panic is the real issue.

03:05:53.000 I think it's fair to criticism on that broad point.

03:05:56.000 As for COVID, maybe that was a real threat that, you know, really could have screwed everything up to an extreme degree.

03:06:01.000 It's killed like a quarter million people.

03:06:02.000 That's a pretty real threat.

03:06:04.000 New York Times high estimate was like six point something million too.

03:06:06.000 It wasn't just two million.

03:06:07.000 It was, it was the, the, the, the slider bar they had for their analysis was the worst case scenario was like six plus million.

03:06:13.000 But we can, yes, but the best that we can do at this point is see how other countries have done.

03:06:18.000 And we can tell, just from the responses they've taken, that ours has been woefully inadequate.

03:06:23.000 But you already said no two countries are the same and we can't compare them.

03:06:26.000 Wait, we can't compare them exactly, but of course we can take info- How can we compare a federal system with 50 states to a single state of 10 million people?

03:06:33.000 Well, maybe we could find a single state with 10 million people and then compare what it did to a single one of our states.

03:06:38.000 Sweden.

03:06:39.000 Well, Sweden did rather poorly, didn't it?

03:06:41.000 Sweden's no, Sweden's doing fantastic.

03:06:42.000 They just had a massive drop off in cases and they're doing great.

03:06:45.000 My friends in Sweden said they've never encountered problems.

03:06:47.000 Testing is easily available, but cases have gone down and they've never locked down and everything's improved.

03:06:52.000 Did they lock down their borders?

03:06:53.000 Meanwhile, the UN has said the economic lockdowns will lead to mass starvation and that now they've said we advise against them, they must be avoided at all costs.

03:07:01.000 It's fair to say everyone screwed this up royally.

03:07:05.000 Yeah, and that is to be expected.

03:07:07.000 Just us more than many other countries.

03:07:09.000 Our states stayed open.

03:07:11.000 We never had closed borders in the states.

03:07:13.000 That's the problem.

03:07:15.000 No, you can't because they closed their borders.

03:07:17.000 We never closed our state borders.

03:07:19.000 Europe isn't beholden to a single executive power.

03:07:21.000 The EU can't tell every country to adopt.

03:07:24.000 It doesn't have war powers over the entire continent of Europe.

03:07:26.000 So it's an opinion on whether or not Trump should or shouldn't have... What I'm saying is, it's not an issue of, we know what could or would have happened.

03:07:34.000 It's just an issue of, I believe things would have been better had Trump used these powers.

03:07:37.000 Yeah, but that's the case with literally all public policy.

03:07:40.000 We have to be able to assess these things from inferring data examples that we already have and applying to them to the different situations.

03:07:46.000 We can't say... So your issue is I'm not criticizing him saying, I don't know, whereas you're taking a position.

03:07:51.000 That's it.

03:07:52.000 Well, you don't know that, but what about all of the other things I mentioned?

03:07:56.000 Like him repeatedly saying that it was going to be away anytime now, him making fun of people for wearing masks, him not publicly appearing.

03:08:01.000 Okay, I'm glad that we agree on that.

03:08:03.000 My only concern here is that the way you talked about it initially, where you said we don't have like a metric for objectively analyzing.

03:08:09.000 You said that.

03:08:10.000 I did say that.

03:08:11.000 And I said that's a good point.

03:08:12.000 I agree with you.

03:08:12.000 Yes, but that doesn't mean you can't make inferences.

03:08:14.000 I'll give you an example.

03:08:16.000 Say you have two cities, different cities, different demographics, populations.

03:08:19.000 One city applies a policy, works great, people get happier, wealthier, richer.

03:08:22.000 Those two cities aren't exactly the same.

03:08:24.000 If people in City B, the one without the policy, start saying, hey, mayor, you want to maybe do that?

03:08:29.000 And the mayor said, well, our city isn't exactly like their city.

03:08:33.000 and then just dead stopped as like an excuse for not engaging. I don't think that's acceptable.

03:08:37.000 I think we need to look into the policies these other countries used, the nature of their country,

03:08:42.000 the way their balance of urban and rural populations played off each other. Did they do

03:08:46.000 lockdowns? Did they do mask mandates? And if we can do that, honestly, and this is not something

03:08:50.000 the Trump administration is willing to do because he has fousted all responsibility for this onto

03:08:55.000 Absolutely all of it.

03:08:56.000 And he praises himself every time the opportunity comes for his handling of coronavirus.

03:09:00.000 This administration, I think, frankly, is, at least with regards to COVID handling, a death cult.

03:09:04.000 Oh, come on. 0.87

03:09:06.000 No, people are dying!

03:09:08.000 But a death cult?

03:09:09.000 Well, people are dying.

03:09:10.000 And many of the people who are dying, or I guess not dead themselves, because that'd be voter fraud, are then going to go out there and affirm the practices of a candidate who has lied to them.

03:09:21.000 I just read it was a 97 to 99.4% recovery rate for the virus.

03:09:26.000 That doesn't seem deadly at all.

03:09:28.000 Well, I mean, if you hit millions of people with that, that'll be hundreds of thousands dead.

03:09:32.000 But the flu does that too.

03:09:33.000 The flu doesn't kill nearly as many people as COVID.

03:09:35.000 Or heart attacks.

03:09:35.000 People with obesity with the flu.

03:09:37.000 Like a third.

03:09:38.000 How many people with 2.6 morbidities?

03:09:41.000 The flu is also not as transmittable and also it's not as... Another thing people don't talk about with COVID, this is what scares me personally.

03:09:49.000 Like coming out here for example, I flew across.

03:09:51.000 Fantastic.

03:09:52.000 I love flying.

03:09:53.000 I say sarcastically.

03:09:56.000 COVID-19.

03:09:57.000 I'm young and healthy.

03:09:58.000 Like a horse.

03:09:58.000 I'll be fine.

03:09:59.000 But sometimes there are after effects, you know?

03:10:02.000 I've heard a lot of cases.

03:10:03.000 People have had COVID-19 that's a pre-existing condition.

03:10:05.000 Heart and lung problems.

03:10:06.000 Sometimes even brain problems.

03:10:08.000 That really, really scares me.

03:10:10.000 Yeah, yeah.

03:10:10.000 Ventilators mess people up too.

03:10:12.000 Well, they're not doing that anymore.

03:10:13.000 Yeah.

03:10:14.000 But the secondary effects are serious.

03:10:15.000 They're crushing their lungs.

03:10:16.000 It's like actually terrifying.

03:10:17.000 And it's because a flu could never, I mean, I guess in very rare cases, a flu could do that.

03:10:21.000 Look, I think COVID is very serious.

03:10:22.000 If you mix it with other diseases, it can really, the flu can mess you up.

03:10:25.000 If we were going to make any determination, I think we can look at, if we were going to go country by country, I think we should look at Sweden and say, we really screwed this one up.

03:10:31.000 Did they close their borders?

03:10:33.000 I don't know.

03:10:34.000 That's a good question.

03:10:34.000 I don't know if they did at all.

03:10:35.000 I'm looking at New Zealand.

03:10:36.000 They apparently have... They were full lockdown.

03:10:38.000 Well, they are crazy. 0.93

03:10:39.000 Well, they did it. 1.00

03:10:40.000 They did it.

03:10:41.000 No, it came back.

03:10:42.000 And then they did another hard... There was a light resurgence and they locked down again.

03:10:46.000 Oh, well, I mean, I suppose they're very sensitive to fluctuations, but as of the moment, I think they're doing... Hawaii has a lot.

03:10:51.000 Like, not to disparage New Zealand, they've got, I think, Auckland and Wellington.

03:10:54.000 Yeah, there are a lot of Kiwis right now who are pretty mad at what you just said, Tim.

03:10:57.000 Well, it's like 4 million people, so... Yeah, small country.

03:10:59.000 Of course it gets easier the smaller you get.

03:11:01.000 Island.

03:11:01.000 Island nation.

03:11:02.000 They could easily suspend travel, do a short lockdown.

03:11:05.000 COVID can't swim.

03:11:06.000 I swear, the food supply, man...

03:11:08.000 Unhealthy people are going to get sicker faster if you have an obesity epidemic.

03:11:11.000 Right, that's true.

03:11:12.000 So the United States has other health issues which contribute to this.

03:11:15.000 In New Zealand you have to fish for all your own food.

03:11:17.000 The police will shoot you if you buy anything from a grocery store.

03:11:19.000 Rice and fish?

03:11:20.000 No, you know what it is?

03:11:21.000 The cost of living is really high in New Zealand.

03:11:22.000 Oh yeah, for sure.

03:11:23.000 By the way, from what I've seen though, beautiful country.

03:11:26.000 I've never been there.

03:11:26.000 I don't even know why I'm repping them.

03:11:27.000 And the seasons are inverted.

03:11:28.000 Let's go in the winter!

03:11:29.000 and the and the and the word of the reading yet they have let's go where they have chris they have

03:11:34.000 christmas in like a july

03:11:36.000 but school I wanted to ask you, just out of curiosity, and this isn't a criticism thing.

03:11:42.000 I'm not a public health official.

03:11:43.000 What would you do?

03:11:44.000 You had war powers, whatever.

03:11:46.000 What direction do you think is best for getting America on track with COVID?

03:11:51.000 Early on, I think in a bunch of videos I did, I talked about the severity and the need for locking down our borders.

03:11:59.000 But I never thought an economic lockdown... The concept didn't even exist to me.

03:12:04.000 And I think at this point, based on everything we've learned, it probably is a really, really bad idea.

03:12:09.000 So the few things I would say is...

03:12:11.000 Protect the vulnerable.

03:12:13.000 Take strong measures.

03:12:14.000 Keep the economy open.

03:12:15.000 Suspend travel and border crossings for the time being.

03:12:18.000 And that's probably the best we can do.

03:12:20.000 And then we really want to make sure that we have control in the hands of local officials who know their regions better than anyone else.

03:12:25.000 There were a few cities in New Mexico that shut down.

03:12:27.000 It was crazy.

03:12:28.000 When I drove out that way, there was a city where the sign actually said no outside visitors allowed.

03:12:36.000 That's up to them.

03:12:37.000 And I think there's a big difference between the way that America handles things, the way Americans will respond to things, and travel suspension.

03:12:47.000 Leaving it to local officials.

03:12:49.000 And I think the one place where Trump did well but then did poorly was early on he was providing quick assistance.

03:12:55.000 He got praise for it.

03:12:56.000 But then, as you mentioned later, he started, you know, playing games with federal assistance, which I guess, you know, there's a conversation about the riots, but perhaps the issue is a difference between a view of America as a single nation or as a union of states and a balance of authorities.

03:13:14.000 Yeah.

03:13:15.000 My view is I don't think Trump should have used the war powers.

03:13:19.000 And it's also similar to how many on the left want to get rid of the Electoral College.

03:13:23.000 I don't, because I don't think this country would run better through a top-down executive approach.

03:13:29.000 I think we need to have a balance of powers at local, regional, and then federal levels.

03:13:33.000 I don't think the electoral college does much to empower the small states.

03:13:37.000 I think the Senate does.

03:13:39.000 So we should abolish that too.

03:13:40.000 No, I'm kidding.

03:13:41.000 Oh, well, oh, yeah, sure.

03:13:43.000 I mean, you can hear that argument.

03:13:45.000 It's really hard to say with the COVID stuff.

03:13:46.000 I agree that the localization thing is really, really important.

03:13:50.000 China has the ability and the authority to do stuff we can't do. 0.83

03:13:52.000 And I wonder, to what extent is that effective? 0.87

03:13:53.000 Hypothetically.

03:13:53.000 Well, China has the ability and the authority to do well, they can do stuff we can't do.

03:13:59.000 And I wonder, I mean, to what extent is that effective?

03:14:02.000 Like hypothetically, imagine money's not an issue, you know, if you could do a month lockdown

03:14:07.000 where you suspend all rent, mortgage, everything, like suspend all forms of systemic, you know,

03:14:12.000 debt payment, and provide people a base stipend, and then have like, local officials who are

03:14:18.000 tasked to provide like groceries or rations to every house, if you could do that without

03:14:22.000 That would do a really, really, really good job.

03:14:24.000 But that in America, in a country this huge, with this many different people, with this many different ideologies, that would be a Well, it's authoritarianism versus libertarianism.

03:14:36.000 And so I've had this argument with many libertarians who don't want to accept it, but there is a strong efficiency in serious authoritarian regimes, notably China.

03:14:45.000 When a pandemic hit, they welded people into their homes and sacrificed the individual for the sake of the collective. 0.97

03:14:50.000 They glued everyone to their seats in their house.

03:14:51.000 It was a big campaign.

03:14:52.000 They'd run in with the Elmer's bottle, you know.

03:14:54.000 Well, they really would while their doors shut.

03:14:56.000 No, yeah, but, and the thing is, but this would be my counter-argument.

03:14:58.000 I like to fashion myself a libertarian socialist.

03:15:01.000 I don't like the government.

03:15:02.000 When it comes to this, there are two types of freedom, positive and negative freedom, you know?

03:15:07.000 And I always get it mixed up, which one is which, but I'm just gonna guess and hope it's right.

03:15:11.000 You have positive freedoms, like the ability to do whatever you want, freedom from law, you know, essentially.

03:15:17.000 And that's what most libertarians talk about.

03:15:20.000 Are you talking about rights?

03:15:21.000 Like negative and positive rights?

03:15:22.000 Yes, I think I get them mixed every time. 0.93

03:15:25.000 A positive right is something granted to you, and a negative right is something that can't be done to you.

03:15:30.000 The easiest way to put it is, a positive right to life means if Ian threatens me with a knife, you must save me.

03:15:37.000 A negative right to life means you're not allowed to kill me.

03:15:40.000 I don't blame you. 0.61

03:15:41.000 I will butcher it if I attempt to recite it verbatim, so I'll simply say this.

03:15:45.000 I think there is a freedom in not living in a country with a pandemic.

03:15:49.000 Because there are implicit threats to my safety that come not from the autonomy or agency of any individual, but simply now from the process of participating in society.

03:15:58.000 So which freedoms do I value more?

03:16:00.000 Do I value my freedom to not get locked into my house by the government for a month?

03:16:04.000 Or do I value my freedom to live in a country over the next two years in which there's not a pandemic?

03:16:09.000 And I don't have an answer to that.

03:16:11.000 I genuinely don't.

03:16:12.000 It's often a rural versus urban issue in the United States.

03:16:16.000 So people in cities It's probably better just lock in your house for a short time and then get back on with it.

03:16:21.000 But people who live out in the middle of nowhere are going to be like, screw you, I can do whatever I want.

03:16:24.000 Oh yeah, true.

03:16:25.000 There's no way.

03:16:25.000 Yeah, you go out to Wyoming or something.

03:16:27.000 These people are never, ever... Because we have such a diverse country.

03:16:29.000 That's one of the things I love so much about this place.

03:16:31.000 That's why a national mask mandate would not even be enforced.

03:16:35.000 Because in, I would say, more than half the states, and I would say probably 95% of the country, you know, outside of the blue counties, they wouldn't even enforce it.

03:16:43.000 Well, 95% of the country by landmass, maybe.

03:16:47.000 They probably wouldn't enforce it.

03:16:50.000 I think the best thing they probably could have done was set up a system of incentivizations for all the cities and governors and what have you, with like relative levels of coverage.

03:16:57.000 Get paid to wear your mask, now we're talking.

03:17:00.000 Or like a piece of crypto every time you're seen in public with a mask on.

03:17:03.000 Like a state gets an extra so-and-so much if they can report a certain number, but then you have toxic incentives too, like what if they under-report cases because they want to meet a federal quota or something.

03:17:11.000 Terrible like that. Um, yeah, it's I had a question you said you were libertarian socialist, but you don't like the

03:17:17.000 government You said that in quick succession, but I always think

03:17:20.000 socialism is using the government to do things So, what do you how do you rectify that socialism should be

03:17:25.000 about the people controlling the systems?

03:17:27.000 They live within the state, uh if it's functioning properly And I don't think it is right now in america should be an

03:17:33.000 apparatus of the will of the people And so far, such a thing exists.

03:17:36.000 Right now, we're like... You're like authoritarian statehood.

03:17:39.000 Yeah, well, that's the authoritarianism, the non-populist element, you know.

03:17:44.000 When corporations get involved, or when long-standing career politicians start solidifying their power in a way that's really, really hard to remove them, then the will of the people matters less and less.

03:17:52.000 I want the government, to whatever extent it does exist, to be beholden entirely to the will of the people, a perfectly democratic society.

03:17:58.000 And then I want corporations to do the same thing, too.

03:18:00.000 I think corporations should treat every single employee like a little citizen.

03:18:03.000 Yeah, I was thinking you should give stock to employees, like a scaling mechanism.

03:18:08.000 Oh man, I don't have the math on me.

03:18:10.000 Bernie's proposed, I think, like a 20% stock package.

03:18:13.000 I couldn't believe he did that, by the way.

03:18:14.000 That was based as hell.

03:18:15.000 Very socialism-y.

03:18:16.000 Very socialism-y.

03:18:17.000 I was getting hot under my collar just imagining that.

03:18:20.000 That'd be nice, because I've worked for startups, and when you have a percent, when you have some part of the company, you have such more incentive to make it great.

03:18:27.000 I disagree.

03:18:28.000 Really?

03:18:29.000 Yeah.

03:18:30.000 I just don't care about it if I don't have anything.

03:18:32.000 We're self-employed though.

03:18:35.000 Because I've worked on a bunch of companies where giving up equity to people is really, really difficult because you'll find a lot of people immediately go, I got equity, later.

03:18:45.000 Oh no, but you have to put them on like a five year plan where they earn only a percentage of the equity every year.

03:18:49.000 So they're incentivized to stay to make the equity.

03:18:52.000 I think you should just split the revenue from the company fairways.

03:18:56.000 That might be cool too.

03:18:57.000 Have people vote out.

03:18:58.000 It's not so easy how to determine how you do that.

03:19:01.000 Well, there are a lot of different, this is a worker co-op, it's just a lot of different ways that you can do it.

03:19:04.000 There's actually a lot of really interesting data in worker cooperatives that's come out from Latin America over the past 20 years that indicate that in certain fields it's an extremely efficient form of corporate structuring.

03:19:14.000 Because, you know, one of the big problems that we have with your average company, you know, maybe not the very high-end tech ones where the big brainy folks work at, but Even just in the lower end of things.

03:19:23.000 Retail, whatever, restaurants.

03:19:25.000 People don't work too hard.

03:19:26.000 Why? 0.67

03:19:27.000 You get crap wages, you know? 0.75

03:19:29.000 You're not really respected that much because your work is pretty interchangeable. 0.91

03:19:32.000 It's that creative investment in the work process, I think, that sparks the ingenuity, the investment, the work ethic in a lot of people.

03:19:39.000 I had a conversation with an accountant in New Jersey, I think it was like a year and a half or two years ago, and they were complaining about the $15 an hour wage hike that was coming or whatever, and how he lost like 30% of his clients.

03:19:55.000 They shut down immediately.

03:19:56.000 Because what people don't realize is many of these small businesses, and most businesses are small businesses, the people who own them aren't wealthy and making tons of money.

03:20:05.000 Like the guy who owns a hardware shop might make $40,000 a year, and he might pay his employees $12,000 or $13,000 an hour.

03:20:10.000 Then they come and they say, we're doing a 30% hike on all of your costs.

03:20:15.000 And he goes, then I won't make any money for my family.

03:20:18.000 And so he just shuts down.

03:20:19.000 Well, the goal would be that if things are parted out equally, or fairly, I shouldn't say equally, because sometimes people are deserving, I think, of more compensation, that stuff like that wouldn't happen.

03:20:29.000 A model that I've seen that looks really, really nice is you have a type of payback investment on the part of anybody who's founded a given company, where they get a proportional wage in addition to a higher percentage.

03:20:43.000 that they pay back until they've made back a certain percentage of whatever they initially

03:20:47.000 invested. And then after that, they're just kept in a higher tier. And that way you have like the,

03:20:51.000 because a lot of people say, you know, what about rewarding ingenuity? Great. Ingenuity

03:20:55.000 is phenomenal. You know, just got to find a way to set it up properly. I wish we, I wish we,

03:20:58.000 I don't know, experimented more with different ways of running governments, companies.

03:21:04.000 That's what America could be.

03:21:06.000 We have all these states, they're all- But that's just choice.

03:21:07.000 People could do it.

03:21:08.000 They could, yeah.

03:21:09.000 Though there are systemic barriers to forming worker cooperatives.

03:21:12.000 Banks tend not to loan to them because it's kind of like a spooky form of managing people.

03:21:16.000 But- No, I kind of want to segue off from this because I just thought of something.

03:21:23.000 You're in favor of political violence as a means of revolution.

03:21:26.000 If it's done, I mean, given that it's done well, effectively, and for good reasons, sure.

03:21:30.000 So what is well and effectively?

03:21:32.000 Sure.

03:21:32.000 I mean, like, for example, if the working class and Jewish and queer people of Nazi Germany had risen up sometime immediately after Hitler was appointed chancellor, I think most of us would agree that's probably... Like, I mean, things get messy, sure, but like, now, in hindsight, like, we know.

03:21:47.000 And I think that, like, right now in the United States of America, the idea of, like, political violence for a revolution is It's like a comedy.

03:21:55.000 It's not gonna happen.

03:21:56.000 Are you kidding me? 0.92

03:21:57.000 Who's to say that the Jewish violent leader wouldn't have been worse than Hitler? 1.00

03:22:01.000 Because that stemmed from the communists being violent, then the Nazis were violent in response, and then if the Jews had been violent in response, you'd have three groups of violence. 0.67

03:22:10.000 I agree with you on that point.

03:22:13.000 And the point I was going to make is that the argument about political violence isn't just it's always good, it's always bad.

03:22:18.000 It's that there are certain things we accept and certain things we don't.

03:22:22.000 The American country came from political violence and revolution.

03:22:25.000 I'm totally cool with that.

03:22:26.000 But that's different.

03:22:27.000 The regulars were sent here when we asserted our rights.

03:22:30.000 So if the Jewish community in Nazi Germany were like, you can't do this to us.

03:22:34.000 And the Nazis came in and they rose up. 0.81

03:22:36.000 I agree.

03:22:37.000 Political violence in defense of rights, etc.

03:22:39.000 To me, it's just another tool.

03:22:40.000 Take, for example, like, again, with the police, you know?

03:22:43.000 Imagine you've never heard of police, never heard of prisons, foreign concept to you, you know?

03:22:46.000 And somebody says, hey, what if the state had the ability to lock a person up in a steel cell for an indefinite length of time if they make a mistake?

03:22:56.000 Make a mistake?

03:22:57.000 I would say violate some pre-ordained structure.

03:23:02.000 Sure, right, but even then the law is just codified morality, right?

03:23:05.000 I mean you get flexibility with that.

03:23:07.000 Different countries consider different things.

03:23:09.000 In Singapore, if you spit gum on the street, you can get to jail for that.

03:23:11.000 There are states where pornography can get you in jail.

03:23:14.000 And I certainly don't agree with those things, but I'm sure if I argued with them, they would

03:23:17.000 say, well, you have a civic duty to not pollute your streets or whatever.

03:23:21.000 But with regards to like violent revolution, it's just a tool, same as any other type of political violence, like policing, absolutely a form of political violence.

03:23:30.000 Laws are codified by people in power to enforce a certain set of principles, and police are charged to enforce it.

03:23:35.000 It's legitimized political violence, but it is nonetheless that.

03:23:39.000 And with regards to this violent revolution thing, there have been many tyrannical, despotic governments in human history, and the reason at any point in time why a revolution would be justified is the promise that it would make life better.

03:23:51.000 Often it doesn't, and that's the issue.

03:23:53.000 If there was ever a point where I felt it would in America, then I would support it.

03:23:58.000 At the moment, I absolutely do not.

03:24:01.000 Good point.

03:24:01.000 I guess the way I see it is I would never trust someone to know what's best for anyone else.

03:24:06.000 And so that's, I guess, the libertarian.

03:24:09.000 I guess the reason I ask is because socialism requires cooperation to an extreme degree that capitalism doesn't.

03:24:20.000 I'd say it depends.

03:24:21.000 To the extent that democracy requires cooperation, then I would agree.

03:24:27.000 I think you mentioned before, socialism, you viewed it as certain goods become... I don't want to put words in your mouth.

03:24:33.000 Decommodify industry and make sure workers are in charge of the industries, essentially.

03:24:37.000 Those things still have to be produced.

03:24:39.000 Someone still has to do that work.

03:24:41.000 And that means resources still have to be allocated to those individuals.

03:24:44.000 So it puts a certain group of people in charge of allocating resources to those people.

03:24:48.000 You know what I mean?

03:24:48.000 Oh, yeah.

03:24:49.000 And this is the flaw with democracy.

03:24:50.000 If you go very far left, like very, very, very far left, there are some anarchists who will say that even democracy is a metric of oppression, because democracy is a system by which you put people on top of you.

03:25:01.000 So you must necessarily as an anarchist, you must rid yourself of these political structures, because all you're doing is choosing who will next stomp on you.

03:25:09.000 Now, I think that's perhaps a little bit hypothetical, but Vosh, I'm really glad you came on.

03:25:13.000 This has been fantastic.

03:25:14.000 We're gonna do superchats?

03:25:15.000 Yeah, of course.

03:25:17.000 I hope both left and right got their hot takes of both of us.

03:25:19.000 Yes.

03:25:22.000 We have a ridiculous amount of superchats.

03:25:23.000 Oh man.

03:25:24.000 It's just, it's 1130.

03:25:25.000 Oh yeah, no, I'm sorry.

03:25:27.000 Let's read some superchats.

03:25:28.000 I have no sense of time, I apologize.

03:25:31.000 I think this is fantastic.

03:25:32.000 Really fun.

03:25:33.000 You probably got me a bunch of things people are gonna highlight.

03:25:35.000 I'd like to think that there were a few things I threw at you and I don't think it's, my intention was not ever to be that.

03:25:42.000 I think it was awesome to have a conversation and I think it was interesting hearing your perspectives. 0.96

03:25:46.000 So I am really grateful you came on and I'm gonna, I'm looking at the comments and there's like somewhere like Tim sucks and somewhere like Vosh sucks.

03:25:52.000 If I don't tweet after this it's because Tim had me shot outside of the studio on my way back to my hotel.

03:25:57.000 You were mentioning earlier like I'm your way here.

03:25:59.000 The driver is like Oh, yeah, the the Uber driver was because this, you know, the right the studios in the middle of nowhere, the Uber driver was telling me and I'm, you know, I'm on the other side of the country.

03:26:08.000 So I'm already I'm already hyped up.

03:26:09.000 And he's like, you know, the Blair Witch Project was shot here.

03:26:11.000 Oh, my gosh.

03:26:12.000 These sure are some winding roads.

03:26:14.000 And I'm like, yeah, it's like just like, there's no streetlights.

03:26:16.000 It's all black. 0.97

03:26:17.000 There's mountains and it's like, welcome.

03:26:18.000 By the way, I'm sorry, this is completely irrelevant.

03:26:20.000 What microphones are these?

03:26:21.000 These are SM7Bs. 1.00

03:26:22.000 These are really nice.

03:26:23.000 These are just, like, everyone uses them.

03:26:25.000 I love them.

03:26:26.000 I'm using an AT40, I think.

03:26:27.000 These are nice.

03:26:29.000 I am excited for anybody who wants to make those clips and be like... You know, it's really funny because it always happens where both sides will think that their person won.

03:26:38.000 And I'm more than happy to provide that entertainment.

03:26:41.000 Let's read some superchats because I already see, like...

03:26:45.000 You're probably touching yourself.

03:26:46.000 What?

03:26:47.000 He says, get back to the actual argument, Beanie Man.

03:26:50.000 But then, Yorozuya says, this guy's disingenuous.

03:26:54.000 Don't bring him back, Tim.

03:26:55.000 Oh, snap. 0.99

03:26:56.000 Actually, no.

03:26:57.000 I absolutely would love to have you back.

03:26:58.000 Great conversation.

03:26:59.000 Yeah, because I don't think I know everything, and I probably could, you know... Fun election night party.

03:27:03.000 You can make it.

03:27:04.000 Well, he's a busy guy.

03:27:06.000 I can only fly so much.

03:27:07.000 Seriously?

03:27:08.000 I'm terrified of flying.

03:27:09.000 JV says, ask Vosh if he thinks Mao was better than Trump.

03:27:12.000 Oh.

03:27:14.000 It's apples and oranges, literally.

03:27:20.000 No, no, wait, wait, hold on.

03:27:22.000 Is he better or worse?

03:27:23.000 No, Mao was very, very bad. 0.62

03:27:25.000 Mao killed so many people.

03:27:27.000 We don't even know.

03:27:27.000 He did like, I think if I remember, he did like three good policies in an ocean, like you'd have to dig for those.

03:27:34.000 I dis a Mao.

03:27:35.000 His wife.

03:27:36.000 So what you're saying is that you prefer Trump over Mao?

03:27:38.000 This is Mao.

03:27:39.000 Listen, if Mao...

03:27:42.000 You're not getting me clipped.

03:27:43.000 If Mao came back, listen, maybe he's reformed, okay?

03:27:48.000 I don't believe in cancel culture, okay?

03:27:51.000 I think Mao should have to come on this program to give his side of the story.

03:27:56.000 Thanks, man.

03:27:57.000 I agree.

03:27:57.000 I'll pay too.

03:27:57.000 Good comment.

03:27:58.000 Mr. Comfy Pants says, Amazing exchange.

03:28:00.000 Great discussion.

03:28:01.000 Love your work.

03:28:02.000 Appreciate it.

03:28:03.000 Thanks, man.

03:28:04.000 I agree.

03:28:05.000 I'll be too.

03:28:06.000 And then Dick Johnson, I will literally pay you $5

03:28:08.000 to never have this guy back on.

03:28:09.000 Listen, man, I think this kind of stuff is important.

03:28:11.000 Really?

03:28:12.000 And so I'm willing to invite anybody once I have a conversation.

03:28:15.000 Some people were like, why don't you have the far right?

03:28:17.000 Dude, we didn't even talk about magic cards and Dungeons & Dragons, which we all play.

03:28:21.000 Yeah, I was really psyched up for that part of the conversation.

03:28:25.000 I actually said early on, I was like, how about we just ditch the whole political conversation, talk about D&D, DM a game on the fly.

03:28:34.000 It's 1130, is it crazy?

03:28:36.000 Oh my gosh, you guys.

03:28:37.000 Fireball.

03:28:38.000 Can I dispel that on the phone?

03:28:40.000 Uh oh.

03:28:40.000 You know what?

03:28:40.000 Go for it.

03:28:41.000 Why not?

03:28:41.000 I don't know if this this comment is fair, so I don't know if I should actually read it.

03:28:45.000 Uh oh.

03:28:46.000 Uh, it's it, I don't know what do you think?

03:28:49.000 I, you know what, uh, go for it. Why not?

03:28:51.000 They said, ask him why he thinks child...

03:28:54.000 Fraud.

03:28:55.000 Mm-hmm.

03:28:55.000 Yeah.

03:28:56.000 Yeah.

03:28:56.000 Should be legal and and is moral.

03:28:58.000 Oh, okay.

03:28:59.000 It's a misinterpretation of an argument that I made like a year ago or something, and I phrased it horribly.

03:29:05.000 My basic argument is that like, why is that material bad?

03:29:10.000 Because it hurts people to produce it, yeah?

03:29:11.000 There are other commodities that hurt people to produce, like the child slaves that mine up like cobalt and stuff like that.

03:29:16.000 So my argument was like, It's all bad.

03:29:19.000 However, sometimes it really bothers me when people will be like, dude, whatever.

03:29:24.000 We make computers.

03:29:25.000 They look sick, bro.

03:29:26.000 Don't think about it. 0.73

03:29:27.000 That was essentially the argument that I was making.

03:29:29.000 Yeah, I really don't like that.

03:29:30.000 There's so many out of context clips of me.

03:29:31.000 That's why I was like, I don't even know if I should read it, but I kind of felt like you probably would have a response to it.

03:29:36.000 I bet if we had video those child slaves, that there'd be a lot less of that. 0.95

03:29:39.000 I talk about this stuff all the time.

03:29:41.000 Like, there's a lot of people who say things like, I'm more effective, that's why I should be allowed to use this computer.

03:29:47.000 I'm like, look man, I fully acknowledge this was probably made by, you know, like, the Foxconn laboratories are really, really bad.

03:29:53.000 But at least, like, own it, you know?

03:29:55.000 Like, it'd be like, okay, this is bad, but we can do something about it.

03:29:58.000 There are more slaves today on Earth than there ever have been in all of human history.

03:30:02.000 That's so crazy.

03:30:02.000 Yeah!

03:30:02.000 That's not good.

03:30:04.000 Alright, let's see.

03:30:06.000 I assume that's directed at me.

03:30:07.000 I guess I should again, it's just been a while.

03:30:09.000 It's a dark time.

03:30:09.000 people like you hate more. You wouldn't be here at this point

03:30:12.000 right now without the lies getting your head wake up. I don't know who's talking. I assume that's directed at you.

03:30:17.000 Yeah, you said you mentioned getting brush up on Russia. I guess I should I should again. It's just been a while. Dark 1.00

03:30:21.000 time. Yeah, I don't like the gate part of it. It's done.

03:30:25.000 Watergate.

03:30:25.000 Everything escaped.

03:30:26.000 Watergate.

03:30:27.000 Yeah.

03:30:28.000 Alright, here we go.

03:30:29.000 Sean Kennelly says, Tim, I'm your biggest fan, but you completely let this guy run your

03:30:31.000 show tonight.

03:30:32.000 He diverted your questions.

03:30:33.000 He had no clue about Russiagate or Obamagate, but you still used kid gloves.

03:30:36.000 Thought you were better than that.

03:30:38.000 Like I said early on, look, as much as we did have a bit of a back and forth and some

03:30:42.000 debate, this show isn't a blood sports debate where I come here with a big stack of notes

03:30:45.000 to be like, I'm taking you out.

03:30:47.000 It's a conversation show.

03:30:48.000 It's IRL, man.

03:30:49.000 I want to have people to have a conversation.

03:30:50.000 That's about it.

03:30:51.000 Chill.

03:30:51.000 Like, I'm sorry if you come here, and I mean this sincerely, like, thinking that I prepared a big list and, like, I'm preparing a takedown.

03:30:58.000 I didn't.

03:30:58.000 No preparation.

03:30:59.000 Be disappointed.

03:31:00.000 I was like, I'd really love to have this guy in and just have a conversation.

03:31:02.000 I kept trying to look up what happened with the Philadelphia riot, because I've been in a news dead zone for too long.

03:31:06.000 I kept trying to look up, and I kept getting distracted by D&D talk, so I came in equally... It's so much better.

03:31:13.000 I'll tell you my thoughts on this, and with respect, Sean, to your opinion, thank you for your chat, I do.

03:31:18.000 Like, I let Enrique Tarrio come in here and speak a whole lot, and I pushed back less than I pushed back on Vosh. 1.00

03:31:25.000 Like, seriously, I actually raised my voice, and we went back and forth.

03:31:28.000 I didn't do that with Enrique.

03:31:28.000 That's great, yeah.

03:31:29.000 So, you know, I'm trying, man.

03:31:31.000 I really am.

03:31:32.000 But this is not a show where I'm here to just take people down.

03:31:34.000 You know, I want to bring people on, have them say their thing.

03:31:37.000 I'll give them my thoughts.

03:31:38.000 Sometimes it'll be more adversarial.

03:31:40.000 And I think it's fair to say I was harder on you than I was on the leader of the Proud Boys.

03:31:44.000 Oh, by the way, I'm going to get the exact same comments on my Twitter feed after this.

03:31:47.000 I'm sure.

03:31:47.000 Yeah, this will be fun.

03:31:48.000 It's the mutual.

03:31:49.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.

03:31:50.000 The mutual.

03:31:50.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

03:31:51.000 I'm sure.

03:31:51.000 I've seen it already.

03:31:52.000 I wish people would just, like, most of the comments, they're actually pretty cool.

03:31:56.000 They're great, yeah.

03:31:56.000 They're like, this is a really great, great conversation.

03:31:58.000 Hey, I like you guys too.

03:31:59.000 Is this the camera?

03:31:59.000 Yeah.

03:31:59.000 I like you guys too.

03:32:00.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

03:32:01.000 Hello.

03:32:02.000 The way I tell people, like, dude, feel free to hate me.

03:32:04.000 Like, you know?

03:32:04.000 I mean, I wish there was less hate, but I don't think I'm perfect.

03:32:07.000 You can handle it.

03:32:07.000 And I think people can criticize you and whatever, man.

03:32:11.000 Look, I'll tell you what.

03:32:12.000 You know what the craziest thing to me is?

03:32:13.000 I don't know.

03:32:14.000 I'm just some dude who turned a camera on and started talking about stuff on the internet.

03:32:18.000 I got no degrees.

03:32:20.000 I'm just someone who reads stuff and has opinions.

03:32:23.000 And I want to talk to people who have opinions. 0.99

03:32:25.000 And sometimes I probably sound like a moron. 0.99

03:32:26.000 That's just the way it is. 1.00

03:32:28.000 And we have conversations.

03:32:29.000 Live to cringe.

03:32:31.000 That's right.

03:32:31.000 Yeah, man.

03:32:32.000 I'm sorry if I don't live up to the expectations of some kind of Walter Cronkite or something.

03:32:38.000 I don't think I ever will.

03:32:40.000 But, uh, a lot of criticism coming your way.

03:32:43.000 I'm sorry I'm not as tall as Hasan Piker.

03:32:45.000 Oh, what the heck?

03:32:45.000 Come on, man.

03:32:46.000 I'd love to have him on as well.

03:32:47.000 Personal failing.

03:32:49.000 Bo Darville says, this dude is in a huge bubble.

03:32:51.000 How could he not know the details of Obamagate?

03:32:53.000 Or is he lying?

03:32:54.000 You're not alone.

03:32:55.000 No, I think it's fair.

03:32:57.000 I don't assume everybody knows.

03:32:58.000 That's why I asked instead of just saying, well, you're wrong about Russiagate.

03:33:01.000 No, I asked you.

03:33:02.000 I have a quick two cents about Obamagate.

03:33:05.000 I think that it is very complicated.

03:33:06.000 I think this is why Trump doesn't want to talk about it.

03:33:08.000 And I think this is a part of the issue that people have with it, is that it's just complicated.

03:33:12.000 It's okay.

03:33:12.000 And I think that you should read up on it for sure.

03:33:14.000 I definitely should as well.

03:33:15.000 Once they use that gate word again, they're confusing everybody by like, this gate, and that gate, and gamer gate, and what?

03:33:20.000 It's all the same thing.

03:33:20.000 A lot of hotels call it water gate, like let it go.

03:33:22.000 Use a different word to describe these different situations.

03:33:24.000 A lot of it really does come to the media that you consume, because even with all the complexities, you get different types of complexities depending on what you consume.

03:33:32.000 Because what I've read in Obamagate has largely been a denunciation of certain perhaps hyperbolized claims.

03:33:36.000 Though, as is the case for many situations like this, there usually are bits of legitimately worrying information underneath anything.

03:33:44.000 And I think that's totally valid and I'm happy to look more into that.

03:33:48.000 You know what I do?

03:33:49.000 I use a third party app called NewsGuard.

03:33:51.000 Everybody mark off your bingo cards for me mentioning it.

03:33:54.000 And what I try to do is I typically start with mainstream media and then I check right-wing

03:34:00.000 media because mainstream typically has a left bias or at least a left perspective.

03:34:04.000 So I try to read both and then this is really funny because I was criticized for this for

03:34:09.000 using the Daily Mail very often.

03:34:11.000 Daily Mail is certified as credible, and... That's interesting.

03:34:16.000 I really mean this.

03:34:17.000 They usually have the most comprehensive take on a story.

03:34:20.000 If I go to The Hill, like I go to The Hill often because they're considered center and they talk politics, I'll read a story about Amy Coney Barrett that'll have like one paragraph, and then I'll search for it and find several other articles, Fox News will have two, Daily Mail will have like 15.

03:34:34.000 And it'll be breaking down the nuances and getting into depth on it.

03:34:37.000 You know what actually does really good reporting?

03:34:38.000 BuzzFeed News.

03:34:39.000 I was actually surprised when they split off from regular BuzzFeed.

03:34:42.000 I found they actually have really, really, really good in-depth coverage of stuff.

03:34:46.000 They've done a really good job on a lot of things.

03:34:47.000 I'm critical of them on a lot of other things.

03:34:49.000 Notably, they ran a racist piece claiming that two black men fought to the death over a chicken sandwich, which I'm not kidding.

03:34:56.000 Wait, what?

03:34:56.000 Oh, I didn't hear about that.

03:34:57.000 It was fake news and it really made me angry because I'm like, I know what they do, I know what they're doing, and it's disgusting.

03:35:04.000 I give, I give... Wait, did they actually fight to the death, or did they completely make it up?

03:35:10.000 Or was it just sensationalized?

03:35:11.000 A dude was at Popeye's and cut in line.

03:35:14.000 And so, like, he walked outside and some guy was yelling at him for cutting in line and got shot.

03:35:18.000 Okay, so it was literally just racist.

03:35:21.000 It was totally racist.

03:35:23.000 Okay, wow.

03:35:24.000 Cut those clicks, man.

03:35:25.000 Made me mad.

03:35:26.000 BuzzFeed does have some good stories they've done.

03:35:29.000 I actually read one recently.

03:35:31.000 But often they have poor framing, I think.

03:35:34.000 Okay, fair.

03:35:34.000 To be fair, a lot of right-wing media has poor framing as well.

03:35:39.000 It's the same issue.

03:35:40.000 Buzzfeed is a left-partisan source.

03:35:42.000 Yeah, I'm rolling through Breitbart articles pretty much every day these days.

03:35:46.000 Breitbart has some good report.

03:35:49.000 People are going to get mad, but I think it's comparable to BuzzFeed.

03:35:52.000 That's going to trigger the left and the right.

03:35:56.000 Breitbart's released some breaking stuff.

03:35:58.000 We're in the super chat section, so I'll let my facial expression carry the weight.

03:36:05.000 Right and left.

03:36:06.000 Rob in 123 says, Vosh said right populism can only be fascism.

03:36:10.000 What is his view of left populism?

03:36:11.000 Well, I think left populism can go in a lot of directions.

03:36:14.000 I think that societies become potentially more complex the further you go to the left, in large part because there are so many different ideas on how to achieve the basic underlying goal.

03:36:26.000 I feel like the farther right you go, it's pretty much just absolute power of the state or absolute power of corporations.

03:36:33.000 I guess it's conceivable to be a right-leaning populist and not be a fascist.

03:36:37.000 I admit I'm struggling to find them at times.

03:36:39.000 Well, it's simple.

03:36:41.000 It's a bunch of people in a small town who use capitalist systems, have traditional values, and want to be left alone.

03:36:47.000 Sure, well, but traditional values left alone, like this can mean a lot of things.

03:36:52.000 Isolationism, ethno-nationalism.

03:36:54.000 No, like, this is my farm.

03:36:58.000 Please don't steal my stuff.

03:37:00.000 I hope we could do that anywhere.

03:37:03.000 But that would be arguably right-wing.

03:37:05.000 You've got people waving American flags and Gadsden flags and saying, we love this country.

03:37:09.000 And that's about it.

03:37:10.000 Sure.

03:37:11.000 Well, populism usually is about, like, the manifestation of the popular will, you know, the idea that the establishment is something.

03:37:17.000 But usually, the way the establishment gets codified in right-leaning narratives means that, like, in addition to the establishment, you have other threats from without.

03:37:25.000 In some states, it's been the Jews.

03:37:27.000 Here, we have, like, for example, MS-13, the cartel.

03:37:30.000 We have ISIS.

03:37:32.000 We have undocumented immigrants.

03:37:35.000 And we have, within our own country, we have Antifa.

03:37:37.000 We have, you know, this sort of thing.

03:37:39.000 And I guess fear, I think, is the underlying emotional pinning to these tendencies.

03:37:45.000 So would a far-left populist be a warlord?

03:37:47.000 Well, I think a far-left... Mao?

03:37:49.000 Well, I think... Because the issue is when you think of a populist, like you have somebody like Lenin, right?

03:37:56.000 Lenin, you know, he stirs up the peasantry for a long time.

03:37:59.000 He gets his armies, he marches alongside the partisans and the Democrats and such, and eventually he seizes power.

03:38:05.000 And what does it become?

03:38:05.000 An authoritarian state.

03:38:06.000 Is that populism?

03:38:07.000 I don't think so.

03:38:08.000 In fact, I would argue there are elements of Lenin's government that were distinctly right-leaning in spite of all the aesthetics and sort of performative socialism.

03:38:16.000 Is that left and right?

03:38:17.000 It's so confusing.

03:38:18.000 Yeah, exactly.

03:38:18.000 No, but that's exactly what I mean.

03:38:19.000 The term left and right.

03:38:21.000 I think at the end of the day, I want people to be happy.

03:38:23.000 I want people to be healthy.

03:38:24.000 I think everyone in this country should be able to get good health care, good food.

03:38:29.000 And I think that most of us lived under the thumb, two thumbs of corporations and of government

03:38:33.000 in ways that are vastly disproportionate and unjust.

03:38:35.000 What do you think about the Federal Reserve?

03:38:36.000 We barely got into it.

03:38:37.000 That's a whole subject.

03:38:38.000 I think the issue with socialism is that the only way to create a system as of right now

03:38:46.000 where everyone adheres to the commodification of certain things is by force.

03:38:52.000 Well, let's take steps then.

03:38:54.000 Maybe... But it's still force.

03:38:55.000 Oh, I mean, well, then any policy is force.

03:38:58.000 I mean, it is, because any law passed by a government is mandated by... The libertarian argument would be yes.

03:39:03.000 Yeah, of course.

03:39:03.000 The government telling you you must at gunpoint.

03:39:05.000 But again, what's the quote, you know?

03:39:07.000 The poor man and the free man are both equally disallowed from sleeping beneath the bridge.

03:39:11.000 Freedom, in a legal sense, means very little if you're starving.

03:39:15.000 So if the government, say for example, uses its authority to provide everybody a base stipend of food and education, you may technically be removing freedoms in a certain way because now people have to do this or whatever, but on the other hand, you've given an entire population of people a different, more essential kind of freedom.

03:39:31.000 It just feels too utopian.

03:39:32.000 Well, but you agree with public education, don't you?

03:39:35.000 Um, no.

03:39:37.000 Actually, no.

03:39:37.000 Really?

03:39:37.000 Well, the Founding Fathers did.

03:39:39.000 They thought that public education was about emancipating the mind of the average person.

03:39:43.000 That democracy could only function if we were sufficiently educated.

03:39:46.000 I should clarify that, in its current form.

03:39:49.000 Oh, yeah, sure.

03:39:50.000 I mean, it hasn't changed in 150 years, right?

03:39:52.000 When you ask me, I'm imagining as it exists today, and I'm like very much against this.

03:39:56.000 It's broken, completely broken, and needs to be redone.

03:39:59.000 Then in a different phrase, that education should be a human right.

03:40:03.000 I'm 100% for social programs and government programs.

03:40:06.000 The issue, I think, is that we need to fix them.

03:40:09.000 I feel like you were operating off of civics developed hundreds of years ago.

03:40:13.000 That haven't scaled properly.

03:40:14.000 Especially education, yeah.

03:40:16.000 Yeah, exactly.

03:40:16.000 Nothing's changed since, like, schoolhouse days.

03:40:18.000 Like I said, I'm for a mixed economy.

03:40:20.000 I think we should have regulations, we should have taxation, we should have some government programs.

03:40:23.000 But the problem is our government programs don't fail.

03:40:26.000 So when public schooling breaks, we just keep dumping money into it, and it's just a broken thing.

03:40:31.000 But we also can't let it fail.

03:40:33.000 Because you can't wake up one day and say, like, oh, sorry, Timmy, your school went bankrupt.

03:40:38.000 You'll be working around the house for a year.

03:40:39.000 Well, why not?

03:40:40.000 Well, the systems have to be kept up.

03:40:42.000 Or if they're going to be broken, then accommodations have to be made by those hurt.

03:40:47.000 And that, I think... So, for example, like our failing schools, right?

03:40:50.000 If anyone defends the education system as it currently exists in this country, they're delusional.

03:40:54.000 This education system is terrible.

03:40:55.000 It's broken.

03:40:56.000 We're worse than other countries with half our GDP.

03:40:59.000 Not GDP, GDP per capita.

03:41:01.000 It's terrible.

03:41:02.000 But at the same time, if we just let every failing school just shut its doors, we would have a spike and everything would be bad.

03:41:09.000 Parents use school as daycare.

03:41:11.000 Yeah.

03:41:11.000 So they can go to work.

03:41:12.000 Now, I read the Super Chat where they said, how does he not even know about Russiagate?

03:41:16.000 So I'll read this one where Redway2 says, Vosh is so obviously winning it's not even funny.

03:41:21.000 I enjoy it.

03:41:22.000 I think it's fun. 0.99

03:41:23.000 I wouldn't be surprised if everyone walked away thinking that I was a moron. 0.99

03:41:26.000 It's fine. 0.95

03:41:27.000 I don't think I'm the, you know.

03:41:29.000 Have Tome says, this is like watching that Joe Rogan interview with Barry Weiss.

03:41:33.000 Vosh is extremely uninformed and lives in a bubble. 1.00

03:41:35.000 You see, it goes both ways.

03:41:37.000 What it reminds me of is I remember I had a hosted or like a moderated debate with anti-climate change guy fairly recently, like full-on anti, like it's all a hoax, you know, flat earth, whatever.

03:41:47.000 And afterwards, you know, the Super Chats roll and the moderator reads them and it's like, you know, the 50-50.

03:41:51.000 It's like, Vosch, you did really good there.

03:41:52.000 And then the next one's like, Vosch clearly lives in the globehead bubble if he actually believes that temperatures are rising.

03:41:59.000 And it's fun, you know?

03:42:00.000 Not to say this is equivalent in that respect, but I like the back and forth.

03:42:04.000 Ken W. says, Scandinavian socialist countries have school choice.

03:42:08.000 Japan has school choice, and compulsory education is only up to junior high.

03:42:12.000 They rank higher than U.S.

03:42:13.000 education.

03:42:14.000 Why should we continue failed U.S.

03:42:15.000 public education policies?

03:42:16.000 Sure.

03:42:17.000 In Japan, first of all, even though high school is not compulsory, you'll find that if you want to get ahead in Japan, you absolutely need to get to a good high school.

03:42:25.000 That is a culturally obligatory thing.

03:42:29.000 Additionally, middle school goes up to ninth grade in Japan.

03:42:32.000 Also, with schools like Sweden, School choice to me is acceptable in concept as long as it's not being used as a way to demonize people who are caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to where they're taking their kids.

03:42:43.000 And a school choice would be something I would 100% support as long as I felt like it was going along with a genuine effort to revitalize all of these communities.

03:42:51.000 That I would be in favor of.

03:42:52.000 On its own though, I don't think so.

03:42:54.000 I think we gotta do something, man.

03:42:56.000 Yeah, we gotta revive.

03:42:57.000 We gotta Publix Works program. 1.00

03:42:58.000 Yeah, 100%.

03:42:59.000 We gotta start building them roads, you know?

03:43:02.000 We have the money.

03:43:03.000 Do you know much about graphene?

03:43:06.000 You mentioned it earlier?

03:43:07.000 I think we should start implementing programs where we're like, we're gonna do a public education thing, maybe it's school choice, maybe it's something else, and then we gotta wean ourselves off these addictions.

03:43:20.000 I think you're right about public schools.

03:43:22.000 Uh, in that if we just shut them down overnight or they went away, it would hurt a lot of people.

03:43:27.000 Parents rely on this.

03:43:28.000 This is why Trump's been so adamant, like, we gotta get the schools open because people want to go to work and their kids, they need, you know, their kids need to go somewhere, be occupied.

03:43:35.000 I hate that.

03:43:35.000 I think it's a huge problem.

03:43:36.000 And I think we've given away our responsibilities as parents.

03:43:39.000 So I think we need to change this, but it's like a drug.

03:43:43.000 We just end it.

03:43:43.000 It causes massive destabilization.

03:43:45.000 The same thing is true with, with, with our healthcare system.

03:43:48.000 So my thing is, I've said over and over again, I would love universal healthcare.

03:43:52.000 The difference between us and many European countries is that universal healthcare in Europe was born out of World War II.

03:43:57.000 A necessity, a mandate, and it had to exist.

03:44:00.000 In the U.S., we've tied our economy up to it to an extreme degree, where I think it's wonderful to want a system where we can guarantee, what did we call it?

03:44:10.000 Non-acute treatments?

03:44:13.000 Universal, is that what you were saying?

03:44:14.000 Well, yeah.

03:44:15.000 Acute treatment you would fund.

03:44:17.000 I like the idea of doing that, but chronic treatment I wouldn't want to fund.

03:44:21.000 Right, right, right.

03:44:22.000 If you eat poorly and then you get chronic disease, I find that that's usually dietary and I don't want to fund other people's chronic diseases.

03:44:30.000 But acute problems, like they fell down the brick, their leg, there's an emergency, I like funding that stuff.

03:44:34.000 Exactly.

03:44:34.000 People shouldn't...

03:44:37.000 You have it's hard to quantify where we draw that line on what would qualify as a chronic thing caused by you or whatever but I think ultimately my point is Flipping that over to get off the addiction of this like... I'll tell you a story, man.

03:44:52.000 I got a kidney stone in 2014, and the bill was like $20,000 for going to the hospital and being given water and painkillers.

03:45:01.000 $20,000.

03:45:01.000 And then I told them, it's the worst timing ever.

03:45:05.000 I just changed jobs right after I left Vice, and there was a week period where I was unemployed.

03:45:09.000 And they were like, oh, oh, no problem.

03:45:11.000 It's $4,000.

03:45:13.000 I'm like, that's still a ridiculously large amount of money, but why did you just cut off so much of the price?

03:45:17.000 And they were like, we thought you had insurance.

03:45:19.000 I'm like, that makes literally no sense.

03:45:20.000 No, they make it up.

03:45:22.000 The hospitals, they're in bed with, or some say coerced by the insurance agencies, you know?

03:45:27.000 They literally just make up these numbers and then they say, hey, insurance company, you don't have to pay this much.

03:45:32.000 This guy has to pay this much.

03:45:33.000 You get to pay a tenth of that.

03:45:35.000 And they dropped the price for me when they realized I did have insurance.

03:45:39.000 But because it's inflated.

03:45:40.000 Because sometimes, you know, it's like with other debts.

03:45:42.000 Like if your student debt gets collected, you know, you can actually argue it down from

03:45:46.000 debt collectors.

03:45:47.000 You know, if it's $30,000, you can sometimes say like, oh my God, my car just crashed and

03:45:51.000 my arm fell off and I'm dying.

03:45:52.000 Please God.

03:45:53.000 And they'll knock it down a little bit.

03:45:54.000 But they're operating in the margins.

03:45:56.000 Whatever they bought for it.

03:45:57.000 With the hospital, though, they inflate this so high that the actual relationship between the cost of care and what you have to pay is... it's like fantasy.

03:46:07.000 I think we could start with covering basic acute treatment, broken bones, really simple place, and like flu and immediate sicknesses, so we can make sure kids aren't dying of, you know, because their parents couldn't afford Tamiflu, like that one story.

03:46:20.000 Getting to the point where we can cover chronic treatments and severe treatments could be really, really difficult.

03:46:24.000 But my main point is I would love to live in a world where it's like you could walk in and there's no bill.

03:46:29.000 The problem is we have two very different circumstances for how some countries emerged in their national health systems versus how we developed ours.

03:46:37.000 So I think it's like, what, 20% of our economy is tied to health care.

03:46:40.000 And I think Bernie Sanders said, was it 2 to 4 million jobs, I think, would be lost if we abolished.

03:46:45.000 I like the idea of acute treatment plus private healthcare for supplemental.

03:46:51.000 Ultimately, getting to a point where we have a functioning system would be very, very difficult, but I'm for it.

03:46:54.000 I don't want to rant too much on that stuff.

03:46:55.000 I'm already angry that you can buy Pepsi with food stamps and then go into the doctor because you have the flu because of the Pepsi, and then I'm not going to pay for it.

03:47:04.000 Well, I do want to say, though, if we do want to drop the cost of healthcare in this country, we also need to start regulating food companies way, way harder.

03:47:13.000 One of the reasons why we have this obesity epidemic, it's not because people got less responsible or whatever.

03:47:17.000 Our moral character didn't decline.

03:47:19.000 The chemicals they put in food are designed to make them addictive, and they use whatever chemicals make them addictive, and those chemicals tend to be really, really bad for you.

03:47:27.000 And I think that, listen, you're an American.

03:47:29.000 You have a God-given right to eat as many Twinkies as you want on any given day.

03:47:34.000 But I think we also have to recognize, just as a matter of public policy, that it'd maybe be good to make it easier for the average person to get a hold of quick, cheap, easy food items that weren't made, you know, out of kerosene and toothpicks.

03:47:48.000 Don't pollute the environment with your body.

03:47:50.000 We have a lot of anti-Vosh comments, but Zeffan says, I disagree with Vosh a lot, but I'm glad you've had him on and would like to see it again or someone similar.

03:47:59.000 Also, is that a new watch?

03:48:01.000 It is.

03:48:02.000 Because I've been doing, I'm trying to track fitness.

03:48:06.000 Measure your biometrics or something?

03:48:08.000 Yeah.

03:48:09.000 Apparently I have a really great heart rate.

03:48:11.000 I'm very fit.

03:48:11.000 Oh awesome!

03:48:12.000 He's fit.

03:48:13.000 What are your numbers?

03:48:14.000 So my resting heart rate this morning was like 46.

03:48:16.000 Wow.

03:48:17.000 That actually is really good.

03:48:19.000 I skate almost every day and now I'm mountain biking.

03:48:22.000 And, uh, yeah, I've been trying to go on a jog every, uh, every morning since, since lockdown, you know, you know, uh, Corona virus.

03:48:29.000 Yeah.

03:48:29.000 Shut down.

03:48:30.000 Yeah.

03:48:30.000 There you go.

03:48:31.000 Tyga says this guy makes me want to be a proud, uh, be a proud boy.

03:48:33.000 Trump 20.

03:48:34.000 There you go.

03:48:35.000 Doing my work.

03:48:38.000 Go either way, man.

03:48:38.000 Grosham says great conversation for showing how the selection comes down to low information versus high

03:48:43.000 information voters Yeah, I think that could go honestly depending on which

03:48:47.000 which go either way man Look, I I do believe that's the case, but I think it's fair

03:48:51.000 to say that I'm not gonna pretend like I

03:48:55.000 Know everything. I think it's fair to say there's probably a bunch of clips of me looking like a moron, you know 0.99

03:49:02.000 None of me whatsoever Even the right is going to be making memes saying you were so smart. 0.99

03:49:08.000 They're going to be painting you.

03:49:10.000 Actually, there was one comment where someone said they agree with you on schools and they were shocked because they don't like socialism.

03:49:15.000 What do you realize when you have a conversation?

03:49:17.000 It's just not that different, man.

03:49:19.000 Humans are so similar.

03:49:22.000 I think a lot of our difference in opinions is rooted in what we've read.

03:49:27.000 That's why I said it earlier on.

03:49:30.000 Fundamentally, I am and always have been of the belief that given the right conditions, and realistically speaking, the right media exposure, because we do live in two different worlds these days, because of what's recommended to us, at least two, at minimum two, I think functionally most people would want the same basic things.

03:49:46.000 And I think we can find those, I think, and we can work towards them, and it's just a matter of agreeing or disagreeing on the Pragmatic implementation.

03:49:53.000 Yeah, the Founding Fathers would go at it. 0.99

03:49:56.000 A lot of these comments are like, Tim is really dumb. 0.99

03:49:59.000 You nailed it, Tim. 1.00

03:50:00.000 Vosh is so dumb. 1.00

03:50:01.000 Vosh is winning. 1.00

03:50:02.000 So, you know.

03:50:04.000 I'm bringing it up again for like the eighth time because I'm scrolling through trying to find comments.

03:50:08.000 There's a lot of threat trend, yeah.

03:50:11.000 Paulie V says, you can't get mad at Trump for executive authority when you say he should have used more to force a national plan.

03:50:16.000 Choose a side.

03:50:17.000 I think there are good and bad reasons to use national authority.

03:50:21.000 Like imperialism, for example.

03:50:27.000 Hate it.

03:50:27.000 I mean, lefty, right?

03:50:28.000 What does American imperialism do? 0.99

03:50:30.000 Kill democratically elected Latin American socialists. 0.99

03:50:32.000 Not my thing. 0.96

03:50:33.000 However, sometimes interventionism can be decent.

03:50:36.000 We had soldiers in Syria, for example, that were helping out the Rojavan army.

03:50:40.000 I'm a fan.

03:50:42.000 Whatever the case may be, together they were doing a phenomenal job against ISIS, and Rojava was a burgeoning anarchist project that was one of the, and still is to this day, one of the most legitimate examples of, like, a democratic anarchist society.

03:50:57.000 By pulling out, we ended up endangering them, and we still have because of Turkey, and in that instance, I am in favor of military intervention. 1.00

03:51:04.000 It's just a matter of how it's applied.

03:51:06.000 You know the problem with, like, these democratic anarchic states is?

03:51:10.000 Well, they usually get destroyed by larger, more military.

03:51:14.000 Right.

03:51:14.000 Well, I'm of the opinion.

03:51:15.000 An anarchist society can only truly exist, perpetually exist, in a global sense.

03:51:20.000 Because the existence of outside authoritarian influence is a very strong destabilizing one.

03:51:26.000 But what if the aliens come?

03:51:28.000 Then we are well and truly gone, my friend.

03:51:32.000 Listen, anarchist world with highly authoritarian geosynchronous defense cameras.

03:51:37.000 I'm into it, dude, like an AI.

03:51:38.000 Orbiting around.

03:51:40.000 This is an account and it's got the Antifa, what is it called, the strikethrough?

03:51:44.000 Is that the three arrows?

03:51:45.000 Oh, yeah, three arrows, yeah.

03:51:47.000 Very nice comment.

03:51:52.000 I accept it.

03:51:54.000 I don't know.

03:51:57.000 I was reading a factcheck.org article, and we didn't pull it up, so if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

03:52:00.000 Yeah, I wasn't able to find it.

03:52:01.000 My bad.

03:52:01.000 I haven't seen any of your screens.

03:52:02.000 I'm not the...

03:52:04.000 Yeah.

03:52:05.000 Let's see.

03:52:05.000 I'm vibing right now.

03:52:08.000 Vibing with Biden.

03:52:09.000 No.

03:52:10.000 You sure are.

03:52:12.000 They're mad you're not wearing a mask.

03:52:14.000 He was earlier.

03:52:15.000 He was.

03:52:16.000 He's wearing a mask.

03:52:17.000 None of us are wearing masks.

03:52:18.000 He's sanitized.

03:52:19.000 He came in.

03:52:20.000 We have hand sanitizer.

03:52:21.000 He's wearing a mask.

03:52:21.000 There we go.

03:52:22.000 There we go.

03:52:24.000 We got it.

03:52:25.000 Someone says fix Tim's audio feed.

03:52:26.000 I tried.

03:52:27.000 I did everything in my power.

03:52:29.000 I was literally under the desk trying to get it.

03:52:31.000 There was a cat sitting on a cable.

03:52:33.000 I couldn't find it.

03:52:34.000 Bosh is hot right now.

03:52:35.000 Oh, snap. 0.99

03:52:36.000 I love it.

03:52:37.000 Yes.

03:52:37.000 Thank you.

03:52:38.000 Let's see.

03:52:39.000 Huh.

03:52:39.000 Okay.

03:52:40.000 Facsimile says Trump blows Trump then calls himself a centrist based, huh?

03:52:45.000 Okay Let's see

03:52:47.000 Ender says no federal aid by Trump didn't Trump send a Navy medical ship to NYC which went unused

03:52:53.000 Your argument is Trump didn't provide aid but that but he stayed to war powers to get businesses to convert to create

03:52:58.000 masks and ventilators Yet Trump didn't use war. I got to find the

03:53:02.000 War powers to get governors not to mess up, but the governor's didn't mess up leading to those deaths

03:53:08.000 Blasio didn't use the medical ship didn't use Samaritan's Purse

03:53:10.000 Then we had like three months of riots where governors didn't prevent people from gathering though

03:53:15.000 Well, the riots seemed to have not increased COVID-19 spread.

03:53:20.000 There was a ton of data done on this.

03:53:22.000 And it wasn't because people didn't get COVID at the riots.

03:53:24.000 It was actually because the existing... By the way, by riots, we mean protests.

03:53:27.000 I'm sorry, I shouldn't adopt this narrative.

03:53:29.000 The vast majority of these gatherings are protests without violence.

03:53:32.000 These protests Well, to be fair, we definitely need to draw a distinction between riots and protests in this regard.

03:53:38.000 during protests. I think, well, to be fair, we definitely need to draw a

03:53:41.000 distinction between riots and protests in this regard. Well, some protests are riots.

03:53:45.000 Well, no, the protests that we're referring to are large gatherings of

03:53:49.000 people marching down the street. The protests would be way more at risk for

03:53:53.000 Because people don't march right next to each other during riots.

03:53:57.000 The riots are people running around randomly.

03:53:59.000 So that's an important distinction when we're talking about COVID.

03:54:01.000 So with regard to the protests, it doesn't seem like it's increased COVID-19 spread because people stay inside when there are protests because they don't want to get caught out in any of the mess.

03:54:08.000 And maybe you can say that's a toxic disincentivization.

03:54:11.000 But whatever the case may be, of course there are governors who bungle this.

03:54:14.000 Absolutely.

03:54:16.000 And one of the unfortunate downsides of the way our system works is that we have to accept the fact that decentralization will lead to decentralized failures.

03:54:24.000 That being said, I do think there were stronger federal steps that could have been taken, generally speaking.

03:54:28.000 But we already went along with that.

03:54:30.000 I will say, you know about the riots in Europe right now over COVID lockdowns, right?

03:54:33.000 that are viewed too as too authoritarian. Lots of people have gone crazy with things

03:54:38.000 are now. Given the anti-authoritarian culture tracing to the founding people would be wildly

03:54:44.000 crazy. I will say, you know about the riots in Europe right now over COVID lockdowns,

03:54:48.000 right?

03:54:49.000 Yeah, well, I'm not entirely sure what that donation was referring to.

03:54:52.000 Um, yeah.

03:54:54.000 Well, I think what they're saying, the first part, at least you're discounting the public response to the COVID lockdown measures when people view them as authoritarian.

03:55:02.000 So in, in Spain, Italy and Prague, there's rioting over the lockdown has been going on for several days.

03:55:07.000 And in London, there's been clashes with police.

03:55:09.000 I won't call it rioting, but it's, it's overt rioting in, in, in like Italy, for instance, Molotovs and.

03:55:14.000 I'm honestly mixed on the effectiveness of lockdowns, just generally speaking.

03:55:17.000 I think that maybe if they had been done very early, it would have been possible for us to contact trace.

03:55:25.000 Like very, very early, you know, but that would have required a response so immediate that it's almost impractical for a government of this size.

03:55:30.000 At this point, I really do think it's just about really, really, really promoting the mask wearing, the social distancing.

03:55:36.000 And then additionally, I think we need to divert funds towards providing businesses and schools materials that they need to Yeah.

03:55:43.000 Vitamin D, I hear, is really good for you.

03:55:45.000 What?

03:55:45.000 that be plexiglass screens or like cleaning materials.

03:55:49.000 Vitamin D I hear is really good for you.

03:55:51.000 Yeah, everyone can use some vitamin D.

03:55:53.000 I got it.

03:55:55.000 Mark Grains says, can confirm, Tim definitely plays Orzhov stacks, Lids plays Boros, I think Ian would play obscure

03:56:03.000 Simic combo deck, Vosh plays mono green stompy.

03:56:06.000 Dude.

03:56:07.000 Simic? 0.91

03:56:09.000 That's green blue, right?

03:56:14.000 Green stompy? 0.55

03:56:15.000 You animal.

03:56:16.000 He's red green.

03:56:17.000 Is that black? 0.70

03:56:19.000 It's black and white.

03:56:20.000 Tim's got some blue in him and also some red.

03:56:23.000 Yeah, Tim's kind of fiery.

03:56:25.000 He's white, white, blue, red.

03:56:27.000 You don't want to give Tim black, that's dangerous. 1.00

03:56:30.000 I hate black too. 0.99

03:56:34.000 I don't think anybody was talking about magic. 0.99

03:56:36.000 I completely disavow.

03:56:37.000 I'm not racist.

03:56:39.000 Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

03:56:40.000 Nobody here was talking about Magic the Gathering.

03:56:42.000 Oh, no, Ian.

03:56:44.000 I completely disavow.

03:56:48.000 Oh, no.

03:56:49.000 I don't know where I am.

03:56:50.000 Please.

03:56:51.000 I don't know what you're talking about.

03:56:52.000 Stephanie B says, Now 27, back in uni, had had to take ethnic class, learned colorism, was told because I'm pale, I'm less Mexican than someone darker.

03:57:01.000 Even if they didn't speak Spanish, lived in Mexico, I did.

03:57:04.000 It's racist, toxic BS.

03:57:06.000 Well, I don't think.

03:57:07.000 Yes, Tim's intelligence and looks are highly attractive.

03:57:09.000 Oh, snap. 0.99

03:57:10.000 That's the best part.

03:57:11.000 Shout it out.

03:57:11.000 Nailed it.

03:57:12.000 I obviously don't think, again, judging from the characterization, because you never know how accurate people are telling anything, that's obviously not very good.

03:57:18.000 The difference, though, distinctly, is that a Mexican is an ethnicity, not a race, of course.

03:57:23.000 When it comes to race, race is a social construct.

03:57:25.000 Like, we were all talking earlier, what makes a race?

03:57:27.000 Like, skin color? 0.81

03:57:29.000 Even that?

03:57:29.000 Not really?

03:57:29.000 Facial features?

03:57:30.000 Facial features, yeah.

03:57:31.000 But even then, like, you can find people who, like, they're black people, you know?

03:57:35.000 But if you change the tone of their skin, you would instantly assume they were white looking at them.

03:57:39.000 You can find black people for whom that is not the case.

03:57:41.000 And then genetically, it's a whole mess underneath the surface. 0.73

03:57:43.000 So when we talk about, like, what makes a person more white? 0.58

03:57:46.000 I mean, am I more white than Tim?

03:57:48.000 I made a joke in a video once about mixed race supremacy, like being sarcastic. 0.98

03:57:51.000 If we look at genealogy, I mean, I'm all European, so by that measure, sure.

03:57:55.000 But when it comes to culturally, how do we treat people, you know?

03:57:58.000 There are black people who get treated pretty good, because they're really, really light 0.99

03:58:02.000 skinned, and it's really complicated.

03:58:04.000 I made a joke in a video once about mixed race supremacy, like being sarcastic. 0.98

03:58:09.000 How dare you?

03:58:10.000 That's the future.

03:58:11.000 Well, I was reading an article that said that people with parents from different parts of

03:58:17.000 the planet typically have, it's not hybrid vigor, but it's kind of this concept.

03:58:22.000 More robust immune systems, right?

03:58:24.000 More diverse genetics results in more robust certain features or whatever.

03:58:28.000 And so I was making a joke about it, and I was kind of poking fun at ethnonationalism, and a bunch of leftists screenshotted it to make it look like I was actually against myself It was the weirdest thing people have tried to smear me with.

03:58:41.000 I unironically believe that, by the way.

03:58:43.000 I mean, eventually, assuming we don't do some really weird international ethno-national stuff, eventually we're all going to be a light shade of mocha.

03:58:51.000 I'm not entirely sure.

03:58:54.000 I think maybe, but China's ethno-nationalist.

03:58:58.000 We'll see how long.

03:58:59.000 I do not like China very much.

03:59:00.000 We'll see how long that goes.

03:59:01.000 And then, of course, eventually, I mean, even if everyone's a light mocha brown, eventually the people who have settled in Africa are going to get darker and the people who have settled in Scandinavia are going to get lighter.

03:59:09.000 But whatever the case is, I'm just glad we can travel around the planet.

03:59:11.000 Do you want to know something crazy?

03:59:12.000 What?

03:59:13.000 There's, like, I was reading this article about a place in China where the people there are very white, but with Asian features, and there's a legend of a Roman legion that was making its way, that never came back, and they think it settled and then had a big family and created this area where all these people have, like, white Mediterranean.

03:59:31.000 That's awesome.

03:59:32.000 I looked it up.

03:59:33.000 And people don't realize that Russia is in Asia.

03:59:36.000 And, like, they don't realize that Russia is north of North Korea.

03:59:38.000 Yeah, they call it European, but it's all Asia. 0.88

03:59:41.000 Yeah.

03:59:42.000 It's almost all Asia. 0.97

03:59:43.000 There's a lot of people in eastern Russia who have Asian features.

03:59:47.000 There's a lot of that with Polynesian features as well.

03:59:51.000 There are places all from, like, South Africa all the way up to Japan and Russia and even parts of Africa, apparently, where there's genetic clusters of people who the old, like, seafaring Polynesian cultures would go to.

04:00:02.000 It's actually pretty crazy how much diversity there was even before we were really an international species.

04:00:08.000 I think we need to clarify too when you said race is a social construct, because this is something that I think is missed.

04:00:15.000 There's a semantic difference between left and right on this one.

04:00:18.000 We're talking about... There's a phenomenon where, like, you might see someone who is an albino black person, and people will say that person is black, regardless.

04:00:27.000 And there are people who are, who identify as black, even though their skin is clearly white.

04:00:32.000 Which shows that, you know, what features define what we qualify as, like, a race or whatever.

04:00:37.000 Yeah, almost exclusively, yeah.

04:00:39.000 reason I bring this up is that there is a genetic component to specific races as

04:00:43.000 we view them and this is important because we actually have a law that

04:00:46.000 protects people based on medical research to make sure they're getting

04:00:49.000 adequate treatment. So I think sickle cell anemia is more prominent among African

04:00:53.000 Americans. Yeah. It's going down since they since they got shipped over here 1.00

04:00:57.000 apparently because a lot of it was geographically determined.

04:01:02.000 So, like, the conditions necessary, because the malaria is not that much of a thing over here.

04:01:06.000 Yeah, malaria.

04:01:07.000 Weird thing.

04:01:07.000 Mal-air.

04:01:08.000 It doesn't really have a meaning.

04:01:09.000 It's just bad air.

04:01:12.000 With regards to the social construct thing, it's all a matter of social perception.

04:01:16.000 For a while, Italian people were considered like swarthy, like kind of the way we would

04:01:20.000 consider Spanish people, but now Spanish people are white. Obama is genetically half 0.71

04:01:24.000 black and half white, but we all consider him black. It's just, yeah. The world 1.00

04:01:28.000 is not so black and white, is what they tell me. But people are? No.

04:01:33.000 No, we're not. 1.00

04:01:34.000 And yet you hate black. 0.98

04:01:35.000 Do you think we can evolve as a species to not call each other white and black? 0.98

04:01:41.000 I think, well, that's the thing.

04:01:42.000 We didn't until the mid 1600s.

04:01:44.000 The entire modern conceptualization of race was like an ad hoc intuitive response to a desire to scientifically separate the races.

04:01:52.000 And what we ended up with was a system to cement white supremacy.

04:01:55.000 Initially, that was literally like, we're bringing slaves over from Africa.

04:01:58.000 We know we're better than them.

04:02:00.000 Let's study the genes as they knew it back then.

04:02:02.000 Skull shapes, whatever.

04:02:03.000 Craniology.

04:02:04.000 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

04:02:05.000 So they were like, well, of course we're different.

04:02:06.000 Look at our brow shape.

04:02:08.000 So here are the three categorizations of man.

04:02:11.000 And what we use today are intuitive, Asian, black, white.

04:02:14.000 Exactly the same.

04:02:15.000 We've updated a little.

04:02:16.000 Same basic system.

04:02:18.000 I got a comment that might make you angry.

04:02:19.000 Get me.

04:02:20.000 Are you sure?

04:02:20.000 I'm ready.

04:02:21.000 Do it.

04:02:22.000 Hindu Andy says, tell Vosh to debate Nick Fuentes.

04:02:24.000 He always dodges him.

04:02:26.000 Dude, so the position that I'm in right here is that I'm totally fine to have Nick on the channel if he wants to come on, and he keeps posturing on his own.

04:02:35.000 All I ask, he just send me an email.

04:02:37.000 We can set up a time.

04:02:38.000 It's really that simple.

04:02:39.000 But I never get that.

04:02:40.000 Come on, Nick.

04:02:41.000 Let's do it.

04:02:42.000 I want to say this.

04:02:43.000 I know there are a lot of people on the left who are going to insult me and tell you I brought up a million times, but I've been reaching out to a bunch of lefties, and Vosh was like, I'm totally down.

04:02:51.000 It was a simple booking.

04:02:53.000 We reached out to you.

04:02:54.000 We set it up.

04:02:55.000 You came on the show.

04:02:56.000 There are a lot of other people who are like, it's impossible.

04:02:58.000 They either ignore, they deflect, they won't do it.

04:03:01.000 So there's a lot of people who don't do this, but I'm grateful that you came on because it's not an easy thing to do.

04:03:07.000 I love talking to people.

04:03:08.000 No, uh, yeah, the, uh, it's, it's, it's actually a little bit like kind of annoying though, because I've said like 80 times, like, just email me, please.

04:03:15.000 Cool.

04:03:16.000 Yeah, but it's, it's midnight.

04:03:19.000 I think we, yeah.

04:03:20.000 Yeah, so I'm making faces over here because we really gotta call a lid, because I gotta get up and clip this up in the morning.

04:03:25.000 I'm calling a lid.

04:03:26.000 That's what I do.

04:03:27.000 I have an early flight to catch, I think.

04:03:29.000 We're gonna have to do this again.

04:03:30.000 Oh snap, yeah.

04:03:31.000 Did we do four hours?

04:03:32.000 Oh my gosh, dude.

04:03:33.000 This was great, man.

04:03:34.000 I really appreciate you coming on.

04:03:35.000 I'm glad we had a lot to talk about.

04:03:36.000 We had like a second wind at 1030.

04:03:38.000 Oh my gosh.

04:03:40.000 Awesome.

04:03:40.000 I don't know, it was magic.

04:03:41.000 You brought up the time, and then we were all, you know, we all were invigorated.

04:03:44.000 I'm not tired.

04:03:45.000 I'm not either, man.

04:03:46.000 You will be in the morning.

04:03:47.000 You know what I think it is?

04:03:48.000 I feel like we've been playing D&D.

04:03:49.000 Well, I think a lot of the conversations that we typically have are with people that we've either heard from or ideas we've heard.

04:03:56.000 And so with you, it's like we're getting into a lot of things and challenging having a back-and-forth, which is good.

04:04:02.000 And, you know, everybody thinks they're the smartest person in the universe, and we want to have real conversations with people, and that's what we did.

04:04:08.000 So I'm going to wrap it up.

04:04:09.000 Do you want to mention your channel or whatever?

04:04:11.000 People who hate you to troll you, or for people to like you to subscribe?

04:04:14.000 Sure, yeah.

04:04:17.000 If you enjoyed what I had to say, or if you didn't, but are just really angry and want to let me know.

04:04:21.000 I'm on YouTube at Vaush, which is V-A-U-S-H.

04:04:26.000 And, yeah, I don't know.

04:04:27.000 I do political commentary.

04:04:28.000 I'm a libertarian socialist.

04:04:29.000 I also play video games a lot.

04:04:30.000 It's a fun time.

04:04:31.000 Cool.

04:04:31.000 Cool, man.

04:04:32.000 Appreciate you coming on.

04:04:33.000 Of course.

04:04:34.000 And we'll have you back, dude, whenever.

04:04:35.000 Yeah, for sure.

04:04:36.000 You can follow me on Twitter, Instagram, Parler, at TimCast.

04:04:38.000 You can follow my other channels, YouTube.com slash TimCast, YouTube.com slash TimCastNews.

04:04:43.000 We are also on every single podcast platform, wherever they exist.

04:04:46.000 Of course, you can follow Ian.

04:04:47.000 Yes, Ian Crossland, that is, at Ian Crossland.

04:04:51.000 And you can follow me anywhere, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube.

04:04:53.000 I have a YouTube channel.

04:04:54.000 And of course, you can follow at Sour Patch Lids.

04:04:57.000 I am here.

04:04:58.000 Still here, four hours later.

04:04:59.000 I'm dying over here.

04:05:00.000 I'm tired, but I've had such a great conversation.

04:05:03.000 L-Y-D-S. 1.00

04:05:05.000 Friends, I wish you good tidings and good clippings of this video.

04:05:08.000 Oh gosh. 0.83

04:05:09.000 My favorite is probably Ian saying he doesn't like black. 1.00

04:05:11.000 I said I hate black. 1.00

04:05:11.000 That was really messed up, man. 1.00

04:05:13.000 Come on, Ian.

04:05:13.000 Necrotic.

04:05:14.000 What the heck, man? 0.98

04:05:14.000 We're going to bed. 0.98

04:05:15.000 We're going to bed.

04:05:17.000 We'll see you all tomorrow.

04:05:19.000 Talking about the color of the magic.

04:05:20.000 Magic the Gathering.

04:05:21.000 All right, it's too late.

Timcast IRL - Tim Pool - October 27, 2020

Timcast IRL - Trump's Campaign Website HACKED, Anti-Fascist Socialist Vaush Joins

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript