Triggered - Donald Trump Jr - American Energy Dominance, Exclusive Triggered Debate w- Alex Epstein & James Showalter | Triggered Ep238

00:06:22.000 Hey guys, welcome to another huge episode of Triggered.

00:06:26.000 And today is going to be a fun one.

00:06:28.000 We're going to do another deep dive into all things energy policy.

00:06:33.000 But we're going to do it in a little bit of a different way.

00:06:36.000 We're going to have two guests.

00:06:38.000 Alex Epstein, the author of Fossil Future, along with first-time guest named James Showalter, who actually runs a solar and battery company.

00:06:49.000 And despite coming from very different perspectives, And different sides of the energy spectrum, they both support the Trump energy policy.

00:06:57.000 I don't think any other show's probably ever had a conversation like this.

00:07:01.000 So we're breaking new ground, new technologies, talking about that nuance.

00:07:06.000 So guys, make sure that you're liking, sharing, subscribing.

00:07:10.000 Keep getting the message out.

00:07:12.000 If you miss the show here on Rumble or if you have your friends that get podcasts different ways, you can go over to Apple.

00:07:17.000 You can go to Spotify Podcasts.

00:07:19.000 If you miss the show here on Rumble, again, make sure everyone you know sees these things.

00:07:23.000 That's how we break through the wall.

00:07:24.000 That's how we break through the noise.

00:07:26.000 Take on the corporate media and get it out there.

00:07:28.000 For all the headlines that we spotlight here on the show, go over to my news app, MXM News, like minute by minute, MXM, where you can get the mainstream news without the mainstream bias.

00:07:40.000 And don't forget about some of our brave sponsors, people who have the guts to support a show today.

00:07:46.000 Now, like I always say, we're cleaning out the waste inside the IRS.

00:07:53.000 But if you are still overwhelmed with back taxes or unfiled returns, Tax Network USA is here to help.

00:08:02.000 Tax Network USA is the nation's premier tax relief firm and has negotiated over $1 billion in tax relief for their clients.

00:08:10.000 Their services include penalty forgiveness, hardship programs, compromise solutions for lump sum settlements.

00:08:15.000 So whether you owe $10,000 or $10 million, their experts are ready to assist you.

00:08:22.000 To schedule a complimentary consultation, visit tnusa.com slash Don Jr.

00:08:29.000 That's T-N, like Tax Network, T-N-U-S-A dot com slash Don Jr.

00:08:34.000 It's a complimentary consultation.

00:08:36.000 You have nothing to lose.

00:08:37.000 If you have stuff outstanding, don't take any chances.

00:08:41.000 Don't try to deal with the IRS alone.

00:08:43.000 Speak to the guys at Tax Network USA.

00:08:46.000 Guys, we're going to be talking about making America healthy again.

00:08:51.000 Did you know that 45% of the coffee you drink could be loaded with mold toxins?

00:08:56.000 And even after roasting, these toxins can still be there.

00:09:00.000 That's where 1775 coffee comes in.

00:09:03.000 1775 coffee is brewed to perfection, crafted with precision, and built on patriotism.

00:09:09.000 All the beans are ethically and exclusively single source.

00:09:12.000 That means you're getting quality coffee without the harmful toxins that you might find in other big corporate coffee chains.

00:09:20.000 So visit 1775coffee.com.

00:09:23.000 Use code TRIGGERED, just like the name of the show.

00:09:26.000 Get 15% off your order.

00:09:28.000 Guys, joining me now, the author of Fossil Future and Energy Talking Points, Alex Epstein, along with the founder of Energy Access Innovations, James Showalter.

00:09:44.000 Guys, thank you so much for both being here.

00:09:47.000 Thanks, Don.

00:09:48.000 Happy to be here.

00:09:49.000 So I thought we would do a little something different with this episode, and we have more of a discussion or perhaps even a debate on energy policy.

00:09:57.000 You both have expressed quite a bit of support for the Trump energy policy that's been coming out, but you both also come at it from very different angles.

00:10:06.000 Alex, you've been on the show before to discuss the case for fossil fuels, while James is actually in the solar and battery space, which we often think of as...

00:10:15.000 Perhaps being at odds with fossil fuels.

00:10:18.000 So I guess to start, James, can you just introduce yourself a little bit to the audience and talk about your unique perspective?

00:10:24.000 Absolutely.

00:10:25.000 So my name is James Showalter.

00:10:28.000 I started Energy Access Innovations, which controls Signature Solar Electronics, which is the number one B2C consumer platform for solar parts in the United States, and also EG4 Electronics.

00:10:43.000 Which is our own battery and storage brand.

00:10:46.000 And we reached number two in volume in the residential battery space last year.

00:10:53.000 Over 350 million dollars in revenue.

00:10:56.000 Over 400.

00:10:58.000 Jobs that we've created in my hometown of Sulphur Springs, where I grew up.

00:11:02.000 Sulphur Springs is a coal community.

00:11:03.000 We have a coal mine that got shut down.

00:11:06.000 And I started the company when I was 24. Previous to that, I was a solar installer between 19 to 24, and I kind of saw some of the problems of the battery-less net metering dependency solar.

00:11:18.000 And previous to being a solar installer, I was a barbed wire fence builder working on dairies, and I ran a hardware store before then.

00:11:28.000 I graduated high school early as a homeschool gig.

00:11:32.000 My parents took advantage of whatever unfunded school choice there was.

00:11:37.000 So I was able to leave high school by the time I was 15 and just have been running ever since.

00:11:42.000 I love entrepreneurship and I love independent energy.

00:11:45.000 And we've been a big part in trying to move the industry towards just return on investment and independence.

00:11:54.000 And we see an exciting future for the technology and an exciting future for an America with dropping energy prices and more energy abundance overall without government intervention.

00:12:06.000 So that's kind of a based background for a solar guy.

00:12:10.000 I kind of like it.

00:12:11.000 It's also sort of funny that, Alex, you're based as the fossil fuels guy in Southern California.

00:12:17.000 So getting the message out about fossil fuels.

00:12:20.000 While James is actually based in Texas.

00:12:22.000 And by the way, Alex, if I look at the hair, I'm going to say you're going to be more the solar guy.

00:12:28.000 So it's a little bit of an interesting dichotomy there.

00:12:31.000 But one area where there seems to be a lot of common ground is subsidy culture.

00:12:36.000 Both of you have published pieces talking about how destructive this is.

00:12:40.000 Alex, can you give us the lay of the land and then James perhaps respond?

00:12:46.000 Yeah, for sure.

00:12:48.000 With fossil fuels, I don't just have a fetish for fossil fuels.

00:12:53.000 I didn't come from a family background of fossil fuels.

00:12:56.000 I didn't come from industry or anything like that.

00:12:58.000 I like fossil fuels because fossil fuels are, in most cases, the most cost-effective form of energy on a free market, which means they're affordable, they're reliable, they're versatile, they can power everything, including airplanes and container ships.

00:13:11.000 Nothing is as versatile as oil in particular these days.

00:13:14.000 And then they're scalable.

00:13:15.000 They're available to billions of people in thousands of places.

00:13:18.000 So politically, I don't stand for fossil fuels at all.

00:13:21.000 And in fact, I'm very at odds at the moment with the fossil fuel industry on subsidies, which we'll talk about in a second, because they want certain subsidies that I don't think are right.

00:13:28.000 Or some of them do.

00:13:29.000 Some of the trade groups do.

00:13:30.000 What I'm really for is energy freedom.

00:13:32.000 So the freedom of all different industries to produce and compete, and then the freedom of consumers to choose.

00:13:39.000 And there are many, many impediments to energy freedom, and the current administration is doing a good job.

00:13:45.000 At fighting many of them, I'd say particularly on the control and regulatory side.

00:13:51.000 The battle that we have coming up that I've been advocating on this show and others needs to go in a certain way is with regard to what the president calls the Green News scam.

00:14:01.000 Or the IRA subsidies.

00:14:03.000 And they're called tax credits.

00:14:05.000 They call them tax credits to make it seem like, oh, we're just letting people keep a little bit more of their money.

00:14:09.000 But these are, in fact, overwhelmingly a mechanism to just give money to otherwise unprofitable businesses.

00:14:15.000 So if you were to take the things that the fossil fuel people support, sometimes like hydrogen, carbon capture, for the most part, these cannot.

00:14:23.000 They cannot be funded in a free market.

00:14:25.000 They can in a very limited way, but not in the way they are.

00:14:27.000 And so they're demanding, you know, upwards of hundreds of billions in subsidies.

00:14:32.000 If you look at the biggest single subsidies that are a problem, it's what are called the clean electricity ones, which historically and currently are focused overwhelmingly on solar and wind.

00:14:42.000 Depending on the estimates, you're looking at between about $300 billion and $900 billion.

00:14:48.000 So over the next 10 years.

00:14:50.000 So think about that amount of money.

00:14:52.000 But it's not just that.

00:14:54.000 It's not just the amount of money for the budget.

00:14:56.000 The main issue is these have dramatically distorted electricity markets.

00:15:00.000 Because what they do is they pay utilities a huge amount of money.

00:15:04.000 I mean, the mechanisms are complex, but they pay them a huge amount of money to use solar and wind whenever they happen to be available, even though they're not reliable on their own without massive storage.

00:15:13.000 And that defunds the natural gas and coal.

00:15:16.000 Because if the natural gas and coal don't get paid when solar and wind happen to be available, they get defunded, they have less money.

00:15:24.000 That plus the regulation has given us a dramatic, dramatic shortage of reliable electricity supply.

00:15:30.000 So what I am for is getting rid of all these subsidies, getting rid of all favoritism, and setting up market rules where any form of energy, including solar and wind...

00:15:40.000 Can succeed if it can actually contribute to reliable energy at the lowest cost.

00:15:45.000 That's what I'm for, and that's why I think we should get rid of all the IRA subsidies, or as President Trump has put it, terminate the Green News scam.

00:15:52.000 So James, how would you respond to that?

00:15:54.000 Because again, obviously there are subsidies across the energy sector.

00:15:58.000 Oil and gas certainly gets it as well, but you certainly hear it.

00:16:02.000 I hear about it more in wind.

00:16:04.000 Solar's definitely made some advancements over the last few years, but I sort of, you know, someone I know who's a banker in New York once sort of said, you know, solar's been the next big thing for the last 30 years.

00:16:16.000 Never quite matriculated.

00:16:17.000 How do you respond?

00:16:19.000 Yeah, gosh, there's so much to unpack about what's in those subsidies.

00:16:24.000 Normally I'm on podcasts discussing like products technically line by line.

00:16:28.000 So I'm going to just, if you'll entertain it, let me discuss the IRA like it's a product and kind of go line by line on those credits.

00:16:37.000 Just to check the theme here for a second, this is, I think, one of the reasons why me and a few other people in the solar industry are realizing that, you know, our future is not in the green lobby.

00:16:49.000 And we aren't fighting for what they're fighting for.

00:16:52.000 We are fighting for at EAI and many other companies that I think will come out of the woodwork and support this movement, which could really change the landscape of the green movement.

00:17:02.000 We don't want into that.

00:17:05.000 We don't stand for the green movement.

00:17:07.000 We stand for distributed generation.

00:17:09.000 We stand for homeowners and end users having a right to generate their own power.

00:17:14.000 And we think that a lot of the future of a competitive, innovative, energy abundant landscape is going to come from energy that is generated sometimes at the end of the line and not the beginning of it.

00:17:26.000 But at the same time, we're not the ones that want to see Any other fuel source get penalized.

00:17:34.000 I want this administration under the leadership of your father to jump in and make natural gas as cheap as it can be without subsidizing it.

00:17:43.000 We don't want to see a seesaw where, okay, when one party's in power, the fossil lobby gets free money.

00:17:52.000 And when the other party's in power, the renewable lobby gets free money.

00:17:55.000 I believe in innovation and the free market.

00:17:57.000 Why do I believe in that?

00:17:58.000 Because that's everything I've done every year as a battery company is release a better product.

00:18:02.000 It's about 15% to 20% less cost.

00:18:05.000 You'd be surprised a lot of the public companies in the battery space have not.

00:18:09.000 And the reason is because they invest their money in D.C. to get subsidies.

00:18:13.000 So if I reframe the conversation on the green versus non-green, I think I've, you know...

00:18:19.000 Alex, I read your book.

00:18:20.000 I think about just the climate models and the way that that affects that.

00:18:23.000 I'm a battery guy.

00:18:24.000 I get paid to make a better battery.

00:18:26.000 I don't get paid to tell people how to change their world.

00:18:28.000 There's a lot of people that are buying from us or that work with us that are like, hey, I'm counting carbon as I do it.

00:18:33.000 Great.

00:18:34.000 Wonderful.

00:18:34.000 I'm going to make a better battery.

00:18:35.000 And if you're not counting carbon, I'm going to make a better battery and I'm going to sell you on energy ROI and energy of independence.

00:18:42.000 And I'd like to do it in a way that does not use public money and does not use subsidies.

00:18:47.000 So how do we frame an even playing field?

00:18:50.000 The even playing field I'm interested in is businesses and homeowners becoming a part of the energy generation marketplace.

00:18:58.000 I want millions of competitors to the central mistake that has occurred as these public monopolies in the power of business have had 100 years to vegetate and go from seeking the public interest to, frankly, I think they're like insurance companies where they make money.

00:19:15.000 Every time that we have a justification to raise the price, I think the green situation has been a boondoggle for some of the biggest operators because it's just like, you know, if you can raise the cost of medical care, then, you know, there's more overall profit for the insurance companies.

00:19:29.000 Yeah, well, it's no different than education.

00:19:31.000 There was no cost to raising the price, so they raised the price, even if the value derivative of that education is demonstrably less each and every year.

00:19:41.000 So, frankly, you know, I've got to, you know, take a step back and just kind of make sure that we're going on the scope here.

00:19:47.000 I think, you know, the American people came out and supported policies of saying, look, you're not right unless you cut my power bill.

00:19:54.000 And I think there's so many grid disaster tales around the United States where people's energy, energy poverty is one of the biggest problems we're facing in our time.

00:20:01.000 Energy prices should be going down.

00:20:03.000 And instead, people like me, I'm 28, we grew up expecting this thing's going to outpace inflation.

00:20:09.000 That's wrong.

00:20:10.000 So we have no dog in the fight.

00:20:12.000 The distributed generation group has no dog in the fight for whether or not America has more wind farms, solar farms.

00:20:19.000 We don't care.

00:20:21.000 And we think all, like for us, it's the power companies and the homeowners and businesses.

00:20:26.000 And what we want is a truly abundant market where millions of players are involved in there.

00:20:30.000 So I think if we want to see super competition with all technologies, and by the way, we're open to, I build battery systems that work with solar panels.

00:20:39.000 Show me another fuel source that I can deploy at the end of the line, and I'll integrate that too.

00:20:44.000 I'm open to squid oil and methane and all kinds of other things.

00:20:47.000 So for me then, okay, framing, how do we get to a free market?

00:20:52.000 And where does the IRA intersect with distributed generation?

00:20:55.000 I think that the IRA fell victim very quickly to regulatory capture, as they call it.

00:21:03.000 Where basically people who were involved in lobbying for the bill then wrote the regulations afterwards and they created massive loopholes.

00:21:09.000 You've got to pass the bill to find out what's in it?

00:21:12.000 Well, they passed the bill and then it went to executive branch administrative groups that frankly surprisingly did things that were vastly in favor of public companies.

00:21:22.000 So in the distributed sector...

00:21:24.000 We don't benefit from the PTC, the power tax credit where we pay wind turbines four cents a kilowatt hour to make power no one wants so they can call up the grid and say we'll sell to you for negative one cent, right?

00:21:34.000 So we can get power four from the Fed.

00:21:36.000 We have no interest in that.

00:21:38.000 There's zero interest whatsoever.

00:21:40.000 We want to be part of a revolution that is creating independence and ROI for our customers and driving down the cost of power for all of our neighbors that aren't yet doing that.

00:21:53.000 The one tax credit that's in the IRA that I believe is a free market equivalency, is I believe my logical basis is that homeowners and businesses should have the exact same competitive environment to make power as a power company.

00:22:07.000 That's the reality of distributed technology, which currently is batteries and solar panels.

00:22:13.000 But frankly, in some cases, it'll be battery, solar, and natural gas.

00:22:15.000 I think flare gas and batteries will be amazing for AI.

00:22:19.000 In areas where we aren't able to utilize natural gas.

00:22:22.000 We can use distributed technology to use all kinds of energy, and I'm just for energy independence.

00:22:28.000 And so when you look at a homeowner, the tax credit for homeowners is supposed to be 30% of the cost of the system.

00:22:35.000 Now, a homeowner has to use after-tax dollars to buy their generation system.

00:22:41.000 The power company which they buy from...

00:22:43.000 Writes off that generation asset, writes off the lines, writes off all the labor.

00:22:47.000 So I do think that there's one group where if we're going to serve the American people, we want to put homeowners in the market of having all the choices they can have.

00:22:57.000 We need to facilitate something like an equivalency, and it's about 30%.

00:23:01.000 Now, I would say that the residence tax credit is also a perfect example of what got ruined in regulatory capture afterwards.

00:23:09.000 Yeah.

00:23:10.000 Because, well, what's that 30% based on?

00:23:12.000 Well, it should have been based on actual costs.

00:23:15.000 I think it actually should be worse than that.

00:23:17.000 It should be based on a competitive target so that we actually drive the cost of the technology down.

00:23:23.000 I think when you have an unlimited cap, you create, in the U.S., currently, home solar with batteries in the United States is a minimum of $3 a lot.

00:23:31.000 But some of my installer guys are down to $2.60.

00:23:33.000 We drive the competitive end of the market.

00:23:35.000 The Australian market is at $1.20 for solar and storage.

00:23:40.000 Germany is at $1.20.

00:23:41.000 American solar, when everyone's lobbying for American solar, what they're really lobbying for in most cases is an uncompetitive and lousy business model.

00:23:53.000 So in Germany and Australia, that low price per kilowatt hour is not a derivative of extra subsidies?

00:23:59.000 It's actually just...

00:24:00.000 No, no.

00:24:01.000 I think one of the biggest jokes I had with Daniel Turner was that China got rid of subsidies in 2018. 0.99

00:24:07.000 They're not dumb enough to do it. 0.87

00:24:09.000 I think Daniel Turner got in trouble for calling renewables green-painted communism. 0.99

00:24:15.000 I'm like, no, no, you're wrong.

00:24:16.000 It's even worse than that.

00:24:17.000 The communists don't want it.

00:24:19.000 That's the whole problem in this space.

00:24:21.000 And what I see in battery technology is a guy who works on creating...

00:24:25.000 I'm working on a new generation battery solution made with a battery cell that's coming out of Michigan.

00:24:30.000 That we're going to roll out at the end of this year in a big partnership with a major company operating over there.

00:24:35.000 What I see is Wright's wall.

00:24:37.000 I see the next personal computer revolution.

00:24:39.000 Distributed computing.

00:24:40.000 Now, yeah.

00:24:41.000 What did that do?

00:24:42.000 It put the mainframe companies in check in the computer revolution.

00:24:46.000 Now, my...

00:24:47.000 James, James, like, okay.

00:24:49.000 Yeah, I was going to ask Alex, can you lay out the problems that you see with solar and can there ever be a...

00:24:53.000 I think it would be helpful just to get from James, like, a straightforward...

00:25:00.000 Absolutely, yeah.

00:25:11.000 Straightforward.

00:25:12.000 I think homeowners need a tax credit for a generation investment or some way to correct the fact they have to invest in generation assets with post-tax money.

00:25:20.000 I think that there's 25 states in the United States to charge sales tax.

00:25:24.000 On generation equipment for homeowners and businesses and the labor on such.

00:25:29.000 And I think that there are sales tax exemptions for power generation.

00:25:33.000 I actually worked with a Republican house rep in my district.

00:25:38.000 Trump supported it.

00:25:38.000 So is this a new subsidy or you want to modify the consumer one or you want to modify the investment tax credit?

00:25:43.000 The investment tax credit for homeowners needs to be idiot-proofed and it needs to be kept because we need to create an even playing field.

00:25:51.000 But you want to get rid of it for industrial solar? 0.86

00:25:54.000 Yeah, absolutely.

00:25:56.000 There is no mandate from an American ratepayer that wants to pay extra for solar power unless they want to pay extra for solar power, and those governments shouldn't subsidize that.

00:26:08.000 Okay, so I think you're talking about then getting rid of the ITC, so investment tax credit.

00:26:16.000 You're talking about getting rid of the vast majority of that, because what you're talking about is a tiny portion of the market compared to what industrial.

00:26:22.000 Solar is getting.

00:26:24.000 So with this, there are two aspects to this.

00:26:30.000 So one is this issue of, like, should you be able to sort of, if you're a homeowner producing electricity for the grid, should you get some sort of, like, the same kind of tax deductibility that a business should?

00:26:42.000 And then there's this whole issue of, like, is it really good to think about these homeowners as in any way equivalent to what?

00:26:54.000 I think the best way would just be to say, hey...

00:26:57.000 Homeowners can business expense certain kinds of things if they want to sell electricity to the grid.

00:27:02.000 It can just be like a little home business.

00:27:03.000 You don't need tax credits to do that.

00:27:05.000 You can just have deduction.

00:27:06.000 So you can get rid of the whole IRA and do what you're talking about.

00:27:09.000 I do want to say, though, this distributed generation thing, like right now, solar is preferred not just with subsidies, but is preferred with a form of market access that is totally insane.

00:27:20.000 And so the way to think of it is...

00:27:22.000 Solar gets to sell to the grid, so the grid will take solar or wind at any time in any quantity, regardless of the reliability that it's contributing to the system.

00:27:33.000 And then they'll say, well, solar is cheaper than fossil fuels.

00:27:36.000 This is like, you know, I have a 10-month-old.

00:27:37.000 This is like somebody saying, hey, I'm a babysitter.

00:27:40.000 I'll only charge you $15 an hour, but I only come a third of the time and you don't know when.

00:27:45.000 And I'm way cheaper than that babysitter that comes all the time when you want them.

00:27:49.000 That's not the same thing.

00:27:50.000 So what I'm advocating is that we need grid rules that require everybody to meet the same standards of dispatchability or reliability in one way or another.

00:28:00.000 So if homeowners want to do this, it can't be like the past where they can sell electricity randomly and we have to take it.

00:28:05.000 And with net metering and subsidies where they get a huge bonus, it needs to be you provide...

00:28:11.000 So if a homeowner can provide electricity using their solar panels and batteries with the same reliability as a natural gas plant, more power to them.

00:28:19.000 But the current state of affairs is just screwing up the grid further with this so-called distributed generation.

00:28:25.000 So do either of you think you could actually ever have a truly fair marketplace with all of these things competing on equal ground?

00:28:30.000 Yes.

00:28:31.000 Yes.

00:28:33.000 It's hard.

00:28:34.000 Yeah, it's hard, but there are three fundamental ways to do it.

00:28:38.000 So one is...

00:28:39.000 One is this is the most radical would be like you have total property rights in the country and you make it easy to build things and you literally can have competing grids.

00:28:47.000 Like that's one way to do it.

00:28:48.000 The second way to do it is what I indicated, which is having the kinds of markets we have right now, but having tech neutral, what are called dispatchability or reliability standards where all the different players have to meet.

00:29:00.000 You have to make electricity available on demand in certain quantities.

00:29:04.000 You can't just make it available randomly.

00:29:06.000 And then the third thing, which is what the old utility system used to do sort of with laws, is what's called long-term system cost analysis, where you figure out a given entity serving the consumers and accountable to them.

00:29:19.000 Decides what is the right mix of things.

00:29:21.000 So it might decide, hey, solar is good for 7% because it's cheap on the margin, but it's not very reliable.

00:29:28.000 Maybe a little batteries, maybe this much natural gas, this much coal, this much hydro.

00:29:32.000 And you work it all out as a system.

00:29:35.000 So you can either have the market that's fair, or you can try to do this system thing, or you can return to a society with full property rights, which is obviously a long way away.

00:29:43.000 Those are the three ways.

00:29:45.000 Alex, I think you're glossing over something, and I just want to make sure we're clear on the solar we're talking about here.

00:29:52.000 I actually spoke at SolarCon earlier on last week, and what I told the industry was two things, one of which you'd probably very much agree with, and that was that net metering and any kind of grid subsidy is incredibly unfair to people's neighbors, and it needs to end.

00:30:09.000 And the other one is that within two years, I think all solar will have 100% battery attachment.

00:30:16.000 Okay?

00:30:16.000 What does that mean, James, for those who are less energy inclined?

00:30:21.000 Absolutely.

00:30:21.000 I'm sorry?

00:30:22.000 What does that mean for those who are less energy inclined?

00:30:25.000 Yeah, 100% battery attachment means that the solar that has been going into the market, and this is why I started EG4 five years ago, the solar that's been going into the market is a bad product.

00:30:36.000 It is just solar panels converted directly to AC, and then basically there's no way to store it.

00:30:43.000 So some of that power runs your house and a majority, 60% of that, actually just goes out to the grid.

00:30:49.000 It's just like dumped onto the grid.

00:30:51.000 And the grid company pays for that export.

00:30:54.000 And then depending on the green inclination of the grid company, they've been subsidizing that export.

00:31:00.000 So the California PUC, because they finally woken up and realized that their electricity prices are insane, did a measurement of the cost of buying that power.

00:31:10.000 The way that they do it, you know, because they want to give a premium return on that power.

00:31:14.000 It's $8 billion on a $24 billion residential market.

00:31:18.000 So what it means is the 15% of people with solar in California that do that, they don't have backup on their homes.

00:31:24.000 And they're raising the rate of power 50% for all of their neighbors so they can get this payback on an overpriced solar system.

00:31:32.000 And what I also noticed when I build this company in technology is that the solar tech companies Price their products to the subsidies.

00:31:40.000 The moment the subsidies step back, the innovation steps forward.

00:31:44.000 And America, again, has three times priced solar.

00:31:49.000 So the insanity of what we've done in the market with subsidies in terms of grid regulations, there should not be any net metering in the United States.

00:31:58.000 Okay, so we agree on that.

00:32:00.000 I'm curious what the thing we disagree on.

00:32:02.000 Yeah, I think the only thing that we disagree on...

00:32:06.000 When we talk about the reliability requirements, that's fine, but most of my customers, all of my customers are battery-attached, Alex.

00:32:13.000 And most of them will only export 0% to 5% of their power they ever generate.

00:32:19.000 All of their energy savings happen behind the meter.

00:32:23.000 Unless the grid company invites them to participate with their battery bank, which is a dispatchability, to your point, a dispatchability structure, I've got power companies calling me up.

00:32:34.000 As a guy with a fleet with tens of thousands of battery systems deployed in the United States with the volume that we've got, saying, hey, can we work with you and build a control system so your customers can give us power during peak time?

00:32:46.000 My own house, I don't even have solar on it.

00:32:49.000 It's in the shade.

00:32:49.000 I've got two batteries, and I've been able to cut my energy prices by 75%.

00:32:54.000 Is that because you're charging those batteries during off-peak times, James?

00:32:59.000 Yes, and utilizing good old fossil fuel at the off-peak time or nuclear or whatever, because some of these things, you know, the best dispatchability technology in the world right now is a battery, followed by your natural gas peakers and then the nuclear solutions, which are great for base power.

00:33:15.000 But the reality that I want to see us head to is that the thing that is called batteryless solar is recognized as a scam, and frankly, free market forces move away from it.

00:33:25.000 So we need to, the energy abundance leadership.

00:33:28.000 That is so clear behind the people that supported the president and behind his administration.

00:33:34.000 We need to make sure these power companies cease to create these kind of market distorting and punishing subsidies that hurt everyone's neighbors.

00:33:44.000 The sales reps will stop selling the bad product the moment that the grid doesn't want it.

00:33:49.000 And the grid's almost an accomplice in this.

00:33:51.000 I've seen this in the Texas market.

00:33:52.000 What happened was we actually had...

00:33:55.000 Retail energy providers buy into this whole structure on the buyback because they're like, well, once I got a homeowner with a batteryless solar system, they have to export.

00:34:04.000 Like they've invested in an overpriced batteryless solar system, $60,000 or something.

00:34:09.000 It should have been $20,000.

00:34:10.000 And then what happens is they stop buying back in general on the grid.

00:34:17.000 They raise their cost of electricity for the stuff delivered at night.

00:34:21.000 And so the homeowner feels like the cost of energy went up 50 percent.

00:34:27.000 We definitely agree on this.

00:34:28.000 But I would say what you've said so far is totally consistent with tech-neutral dispatchability standards.

00:34:34.000 There's no subsidy required unless you want to make it a business and have a tax deduction for it.

00:34:40.000 But I would say I would be very cautious about...

00:34:44.000 Two things.

00:34:44.000 One is this idea of, I forget how you put it, it's battery attached.

00:34:48.000 But battery attached does not mean it's anywhere near fully dispatchable.

00:34:53.000 Like, batteries are relatively expensive.

00:34:55.000 And if you're talking about a pure backup where you can have a self-sufficient system not connected to the grid, like you can have a self-sufficient, like Elon, for example, you know, in Memphis is building self-sufficient things.

00:35:06.000 Guess what he's doing it with?

00:35:08.000 It's not solar.

00:35:09.000 It's natural gas.

00:35:10.000 So natural gas can be self-sufficient behind the meter if you want to run data centers or whatever.

00:35:14.000 Same thing with nuclear.

00:35:16.000 With solar and storage, nobody is doing this at large scale because it's just too expensive.

00:35:20.000 So when you're using solar and storage, you're not using storage that's sufficient to truly make the solar fully backed up.

00:35:26.000 You're making it less unreliable, less non-dispatchable.

00:35:30.000 So my view is like...

00:35:32.000 We ought to be clear about that.

00:35:34.000 It's not at all the same.

00:35:35.000 Solar plus storage is not at all the same dispatchability as natural gas or anything like that.

00:35:38.000 And all we need is rules that just say, hey, if you can actually, if you have a big battery bank, if you can provide power by the same standards of natural gas, you should be allowed to.

00:35:46.000 That's it.

00:35:47.000 We just need to allow the same standard being met by homeowners.

00:35:50.000 But so far, as you've agreed to, homeowners have been able to scam other people with these ridiculous net metering.

00:35:58.000 Well, you know, I think the only thing I push back on that, Alex, is your grip on the technology versus, you know, our focus in the business.

00:36:05.000 Our customers are putting over a 12-hour reserve on their homes, which is typically two hours of solar production because you make a point about the solar capacity factor being about 20%.

00:36:14.000 You can achieve this with the right size battery bank.

00:36:17.000 Our focus has been reducing the cost of battery banks.

00:36:20.000 We're the best cost efficient.

00:36:21.000 Battery Bank of the United States.

00:36:23.000 Great.

00:36:23.000 I want you to be able to compete, but I have no lack of grip on the technology in terms of, like, nobody is actually making purely dispatchable things on a large scale with solar and storage that can be grid independent.

00:36:34.000 So they're depending on the grid, but then they're claiming to be, you know, distributed and independent.

00:36:39.000 I mean, I got 100,000 customers, Alex.

00:36:41.000 Your homeowners are off-grid?

00:36:42.000 My homeowner is off-grid.

00:36:44.000 The grid is a backup generator providing maybe 2-3% of their power unless they live off-grid entirely and they get that backup generator from a gasoline source or something else like that.

00:36:54.000 Right.

00:36:54.000 Well, obviously, that's totally fine insofar as they can do that.

00:36:56.000 I mean, off-grid has been around for a while and it's getting better.

00:36:58.000 And that's a good thing.

00:37:01.000 What I'm saying is just...

00:37:02.000 You seem to be concerned about these homeowners not being allowed to sell electricity to the grid that's at high quality.

00:37:07.000 I'm saying, let's let them sell to the grid that's at high quality.

00:37:10.000 Get rid of the whole IRA and make sure everyone is allowed to sell to the grid at the same quality.

00:37:14.000 And I'm trying to say that my homeowners don't need to sell to the grid.

00:37:18.000 They're dropping out like school choice parents.

00:37:20.000 Great.

00:37:21.000 Even better.

00:37:23.000 We're running out of electricity, so good for them.

00:37:25.000 That's great.

00:37:26.000 I want energy freedom, so I totally support your customers.

00:37:29.000 Doing that, what I don't support is this idea that everyone is saying, like, we need our particular subsidies for the IRA.

00:37:37.000 This is what every group is saying, right?

00:37:38.000 The battery people are saying or the homeowners are saying we need ours.

00:37:40.000 The oil people are saying we need the carbon capture and the hydrogen.

00:37:44.000 The solar people are saying we need investment tax credit.

00:37:46.000 The wind people are saying we need production tax credit.

00:37:48.000 The biofuel people are saying we need clean fuels or whatever.

00:37:53.000 Net-zero airlines are saying sustainable aviation fuel.

00:37:56.000 What's going to happen if we don't put a stop to this is everyone's going to demand their own little thing, and we're going to have $1 to $2 trillion of IRA kept around, and we're going to still screw the grid.

00:38:06.000 And all of this administration's goals are not going to be possible on the grid as long as we have the solar and wind subsidies.

00:38:12.000 And for everyone watching, again, who's not an energy expert, the IRA is the Inflation Reduction Act, and anyone who's been watching...

00:38:19.000 Understands that anytime Congress names a bill, it usually does the opposite.

00:38:24.000 It's the Inflation Act.

00:38:25.000 It's the Inflation Act.

00:38:27.000 There's no reduction in the Inflation Act whatsoever.

00:38:30.000 Yeah, and I think that the key thing here is that it's not radical to say that homeowners should have access to a free market generating power.

00:38:39.000 And the tax implications of investing in generation.

00:38:44.000 For a homeowner should be the same as their power companies or better.

00:38:47.000 Homeowners are voters.

00:38:49.000 They drive the economy.

00:38:50.000 And if you want the power companies living in a no-subsidy environment to actually do their job and innovate and use any source necessary...

00:38:58.000 The only way to really make that happen, or one of the best ways to make that happen when you do the right thing for homeowners and give them an even playing field, is put the power companies up against tens of millions of Americans that are saying, you know what, if you don't do a good enough job, the battery-attached solution is,

00:39:14.000 I'm just going to leave.

00:39:16.000 And that all of a sudden wakes up things in our society that are institutional monopolies, like the school system.

00:39:22.000 When all of a sudden you can leave...

00:39:24.000 You drive innovation and competition in those institutional monopolies.

00:39:29.000 What I don't see is why we have to drag homeowners into the green agenda with solar farms and wind turbines making power nobody wants whenever they want to do it.

00:39:40.000 The bottom line is, and this is where we fought for And we actually filed a bill in the state of Texas with a Republican sponsor on a sales tax exemption for all distributed generation.

00:39:50.000 Why?

00:39:50.000 Because there's no reason why the state should prefer centralized generation versus distributed generation.

00:39:54.000 And also because of, frankly, the weight that these technologies carry.

00:39:59.000 If someone does a system that saves a $300 a month power bill, even if power stops inflating, it's somewhere in the neighborhood of $80,000 of output on $20,000 of hardware.

00:40:11.000 Who's an economic driver that's going to put cash in the pockets of middle-class American homeowners who've been squeezed out of this economy?

00:40:17.000 You know, the bottom line...

00:40:18.000 Just make a free market.

00:40:20.000 Yeah.

00:40:21.000 Yeah, just make a free market.

00:40:22.000 Again, if it's like right now, just quote-unquote distributed generations getting a lot of special preferences, including access to the grid to sell non-dispatchable electricity.

00:40:30.000 So what I'm in favor of is hold them to the same standards and give them the same...

00:40:35.000 Tax deductions.

00:40:36.000 It's not the same as a tax credit that's transferable where you can just sell it to somebody and make a ton of money on it.

00:40:40.000 So we can get rid of the whole IRA.

00:40:42.000 And if there's some issue with business tax deductions for homeowners for their own selling electricity to the grid, let's fix that separately.

00:40:50.000 But we don't need to keep the IRA at all.

00:40:52.000 And none of those IRA credits are focused on what you're talking about.

00:40:55.000 Converting the homeowner tax credit to a tax deduction is a very anti-middle class move because most of the middle class takes the standard deduction.

00:41:02.000 Most of the middle class.

00:41:03.000 But this is part of this tax credit scam is you're talking about giving a tax credit to people who aren't really paying taxes.

00:41:10.000 So it functions as a subsidy.

00:41:12.000 No, they do.

00:41:13.000 They're not paying enough taxes to be able to benefit from the tax credit.

00:41:17.000 So just make it a deduction.

00:41:19.000 Just make it a deduction.

00:41:20.000 That's the same thing the power companies have.

00:41:22.000 Now you're saying, well, middle class needs separate treatment because they take this deduction.

00:41:25.000 Let's just make it simple.

00:41:27.000 Free market, dispatchability standards.

00:41:29.000 Everyone gets the same business tax deductibility.

00:41:32.000 Get rid of the IRA.

00:41:34.000 Get rid of the green news scam.

00:41:35.000 America wins. 0.72

00:41:37.000 So I've done these walkthroughs of homeowners, Alex.

00:41:40.000 And what happens is most homeowners have about $10,000, $5,000 in withholdings across the year.

00:41:47.000 They put in a system.

00:41:49.000 They get a 30% equivalent, so it's maybe $7,000 to $9,000 if you're not manipulating the value, which is a big problem I want to talk about, which is the real big cheese.

00:41:57.000 That's 80-plus percent of where all the money's going is the manipulation.

00:42:01.000 Okay, so what happens is that they get their withholdings refunded when they get a tax credit.

00:42:08.000 It's not a refund.

00:42:09.000 You're mistaken on it being a refundable tax credit for people who don't pay taxes.

00:42:12.000 We're outright explaining to Grandma.

00:42:15.000 That if she is on Social Security and doesn't pay any net taxes, she can't get the tax credit that exists right now, Alex.

00:42:21.000 That's fine.

00:42:23.000 And we'll evolve past the 30%.

00:42:26.000 We want a fair playing field for taxpaying, homeowner, middle-class Americans.

00:42:32.000 And I think that the majority of them are going to want an access to participation of that.

00:42:36.000 And so they don't file their taxes.

00:42:38.000 The individual taxes with itemized deductions, Alex, they take the standard deduction.

00:42:42.000 So it's very much why so many people donate to churches, like myself, go to church every week, I donate.

00:42:48.000 I don't go and grab all that.

00:42:50.000 I take the standard deduction.

00:42:52.000 So the way that individual taxes work, if you really dive into the issue, you'll see the efficacy of...

00:43:00.000 The residential tax credit, and I think what we need to do is go after the 80% of the resident, even within the residential tax credit category, I think 80% of the cash is going to a scam focused on lease ownership and multiplying the value of those systems.

00:43:15.000 We're putting $30,000 systems, when they wrote the regs for the tax credit, they set it where you take a $30,000 system and put it in at $110,000 based on a third-party appraiser of cash.

00:43:24.000 I think this is getting very...

00:43:27.000 Technical.

00:43:27.000 I think the key is, if we look big picture, if there is some legitimacy here and it can't properly be done by the business tax deduction, as I suspect it can be, Then what's going to happen is if you try to preserve just this little part of the IRA or just this sub-portion of the IRA,

00:43:45.000 then you allow all the lobbyists to preserve their portions.

00:43:49.000 Everyone is arguing for their particular portion.

00:43:52.000 So versus if there is some legitimacy here, if homeowners are in fact being screwed, whereas right now they're being actually benefited through access to...

00:44:00.000 To sell unreliable electricity that is not fair to everyone else.

00:44:03.000 But if they're in fact being screwed in some way, then through reconciliation we can set up a new thing that addresses that fairly.

00:44:10.000 But we still need to get rid of the entire IRA.

00:44:12.000 And if we don't get rid of the entire IRA, and if people who are generally free market like you argue for your own little slice of it...

00:44:18.000 Then we're going to lose the whole thing.

00:44:20.000 And here's the macro, just so Don at least has my perspective.

00:44:23.000 Like, right now, I'm holding an energy conference with a lot of the, you know, today and tomorrow, some of the, like, leading electricity energy people.

00:44:30.000 I mean, like, Lee Zeldin is there.

00:44:31.000 Lots of people are there.

00:44:32.000 And every person who knows about electricity is like...

00:44:35.000 If the IRA tax credits for solar and wind do not go, we cannot fix the grid.

00:44:40.000 I've pre-interviewed everybody.

00:44:41.000 It's always the same.

00:44:42.000 In Florida, anywhere.

00:44:43.000 This is ruining the grid.

00:44:45.000 You cannot subsidize unreliable power and defund reliable power and handle a grid that needs to expand to accommodate AI, let alone EVs if we have more EVs.

00:44:57.000 It's so urgent to get rid of the IRA and to get everyone on board with getting rid of the IRA.

00:45:03.000 So we need that.

00:45:04.000 And if there are any other changes to tax code that are fair, then we can do those separately.

00:45:09.000 Alex, you guys mentioned the word sort of, you know, the very technical nature of this.

00:45:14.000 You know, having been around politics for quite some time right now, how many people in Washington, D.C. How do we get to a solution that is actually fair and just in something that the vast majority of the 535 people in Congress likely will never understand

00:45:45.000 in term of that big picture?

00:45:47.000 I think they do.

00:45:50.000 Understand.

00:45:50.000 So I've spoken to pretty large groups.

00:45:52.000 I spoke to the Republican Study Committee, which is the largest group of Republicans in the House about this.

00:45:58.000 A lot of them get it.

00:45:59.000 What's happening, though, is so everyone knows fundamentally, like most Republicans at least know, like you want a free market if you're subsidizing things that's making things more expensive and or lower quality.

00:46:11.000 That's that's how it works.

00:46:12.000 You don't want to subsidize things.

00:46:14.000 And the IRA, and I'm putting out something on this probably before this comes out, like every single one of the IRA subsidies is in some way making things less efficient.

00:46:23.000 What people are mostly, they're mostly confused.

00:46:27.000 They're being pressured by special interests.

00:46:29.000 So what we need is as many people as possible, you know, at the White House, the House and Senate to say we have to rise above this.

00:46:38.000 We have to just be against subsidies.

00:46:40.000 We have to be against the IRA.

00:46:42.000 We have to be for energy freedom.

00:46:43.000 And everyone gets that.

00:46:45.000 It's just that what's happening is, you know, the oil lobby is coming into your office.

00:46:51.000 And the solar lobby is coming into your office.

00:46:53.000 And the wind lobby is coming into your office.

00:46:55.000 And they're each claiming that their particular subsidy is crucial for the country.

00:46:59.000 And if we don't do it, it's going to be bad.

00:47:00.000 But they're also kind of reminding you, hey, we contributed a lot to your campaign.

00:47:04.000 I don't contribute to anybody's campaign.

00:47:06.000 I don't support any political party.

00:47:08.000 I don't support any politician.

00:47:09.000 I support good policies.

00:47:11.000 I'm not a Republican or a Democrat.

00:47:12.000 I actually have lobbyists now.

00:47:14.000 I set up the Energy Freedom Fund.

00:47:15.000 I get no money for it.

00:47:16.000 And they only get paid to fight for energy freedom.

00:47:19.000 They have no accountability to anybody.

00:47:22.000 So I'm trying to fix the system myself, but we don't give money to politicians.

00:47:25.000 We just give the truth.

00:47:27.000 And so that's why I'm eager to be on this show and for people with influence to listen.

00:47:32.000 It's very simple.

00:47:34.000 This is anti-freedom.

00:47:35.000 It's terrible for the budget.

00:47:36.000 It makes energy more expensive.

00:47:38.000 It makes energy less reliable.

00:47:40.000 It's bad.

00:47:42.000 It's just there's all these special interests confusing it.

00:47:45.000 And that's what we need to try to get above.

00:47:47.000 Given the natural sort of demands that we need as a country and where we're going, you mentioned EVs, electric vehicles, what will be the data centers that are going to be required around AI.

00:47:57.000 We don't currently produce...

00:47:59.000 Enough energy to be competitive with China, who's firing up a new coal-fired power plant every other day.

00:48:06.000 It does feel like we probably need all of these methodologies to be able to work together to actually be able to generate the electricity that we need to be able to actually fund that innovation.

00:48:15.000 And if you fall too far behind in the AI race, all of this is over anyway.

00:48:21.000 Well, you need everything.

00:48:22.000 I mean, that's like saying, well, we need all the computing we can, so let's give subsidies to uncompetitive computing.

00:48:27.000 No, let's have a free market, and let's make sure we get rid of all the barriers. 0.58

00:48:32.000 So one thing this administration is doing that's very good is trying to figure out for every industry, hey, what are the barriers?

00:48:39.000 Like, at my conference, you know, we have, like, what are the barriers holding back nuclear?

00:48:43.000 What are the permitting barriers?

00:48:44.000 What are the barriers holding back electricity as such?

00:48:47.000 What are the barriers holding back oil and gas?

00:48:50.000 Rid of all of those barriers.

00:48:53.000 That's the key.

00:48:56.000 And by the way, just so people know, I know this is controversial, but right now we're making some big decisions as a country about trade.

00:49:03.000 And I would say I'm definitely on the side of let's make sure we have really good trade relationships with our allies because Canada and countries like that, they can be really, really big allies.

00:49:14.000 And that's going to be part of...

00:49:15.000 Dealing with the China situation, which is a real problem, is making sure that we have maximum freedom here and that we have sort of interaction with free allies as well.

00:49:24.000 I think like we need to scale that up.

00:49:26.000 So get rid of all the barriers as quickly as possible.

00:49:29.000 That's the urgency supporting, like giving money and tax, you know, these special favors to people.

00:49:35.000 That doesn't accelerate anything on any scale.

00:49:38.000 Bigger picture, guys.

00:49:39.000 How does, since you brought it up, sort of how does tariff and trade policy impact?

00:49:45.000 I mean, I think we all agree that energy security is national security.

00:49:52.000 I've been saying that for years, ever since they cut off Keystone Pipeline and all of these other things.

00:49:57.000 I'd love for you to both to lay out what it means to you.

00:50:01.000 Maybe we'll start with James and then go to Alex.

00:50:04.000 Yeah, energy security and just really the future of the America First policies.

00:50:09.000 You know, as a job creator, You know, the the industry has been taking subsidies from D.C. and then basically borrowing homework from China.

00:50:19.000 Right.

00:50:19.000 And that's been basically the way that things have gone.

00:50:22.000 So actually, earlier on last year, you know, we were in an 80 percent Trump district.

00:50:28.000 We were watching the polls and it was very clear that your father was going to win.

00:50:33.000 And like in March.

00:50:35.000 We acquired a manufacturing facility.

00:50:36.000 We started renovating it, stood it up.

00:50:38.000 It was a facility in a town next to us that has 10,000 people.

00:50:43.000 It lost 1,000 manufacturing jobs 10 years ago, really hasn't recovered.

00:50:47.000 And we set forth a plan to move all of our manufacturing from overseas back to that facility over the next few years, I think.

00:50:55.000 American manufacturing of energy technology takes vertical integration, so you have to go back up the chain.

00:50:59.000 We've let capacitors and heat sinks and all the passives that actually it takes to make energy control equipment, we've let that all go overseas.

00:51:09.000 So we have to move that back.

00:51:11.000 What about the batteries, James?

00:51:12.000 You're obviously so dependent on rare earth minerals.

00:51:14.000 China's been making that play forever. 1.00

00:51:16.000 How do we break that dependency on China and their policies?

00:51:22.000 Rightly or wrongly, but certainly intelligently, seem to have cornered a lot of the market on those minerals required to make batteries, whether, and again, whether that's for what you're doing, whether that's for EVs, etc.

00:51:33.000 Yeah, I think I also want to point out that China has a dependency on imported lithium, right?

00:51:38.000 The batteries that I've sold were manufactured in China from lithium from Chile.

00:51:43.000 So, like, basically, they are two rides across the Pacific because they're not completely self-sustaining.

00:51:50.000 On the international stage.

00:51:51.000 I think, you know, as somebody who's moved from, you know, a product development and OEM to manufacturing, I mean, the shocking level of just not having a focus in the past 25 years on critical rare earth minerals.

00:52:08.000 And that, I mean, I think that, you know, if we want to see energy security, we're going to have to go after that.

00:52:14.000 But I would say lithium batteries and solar cells.

00:52:17.000 We can make those in the United States within 10 to 20 percent of what China makes them for in a robotic factory.

00:52:23.000 But frankly, Chinese factory owners want to see made in a country where they can keep their money, which is a big problem in the Chinese economy right now.

00:52:30.000 So we can actually be we can be the next generation.

00:52:33.000 Of energy hardware.

00:52:35.000 I think in the security dimension, there's a couple other ones we try to address.

00:52:38.000 We were the first battery company to make an EMP hardened, like military tested battery system for a house that would continue to operate in the case of a grid emergency like that.

00:52:48.000 And as a standard issue, some of our competitors are like charging extra for it.

00:52:51.000 And we also are working on, you know, I think what we really need is a signal from the DOE or the DHS as to a cybersecurity standard that they'll get behind the best.

00:53:02.000 You know, cybersecurity people in the world work for the American government.

00:53:06.000 And we either need a platform or a signal.

00:53:08.000 I think the whole grid does as to where are we going to go the next stage with cybersecurity.

00:53:13.000 But we can match and bolt that on with anything we're doing.

00:53:17.000 So energy security.

00:53:19.000 The third one is the economic security of energy.

00:53:21.000 And I do a lot of humanitarian work in East Africa, and I see what happens to communities that are energy scarce.

00:53:26.000 We need a competitive energy market that's dropping in cost.

00:53:29.000 That also is more reliable in the case of a backup situation.

00:53:34.000 And I think my technology is a huge part of doing that.

00:53:36.000 I think my competitors, as long as they aren't driven by distorting forces, we're going to do the same thing and going to really contribute to an abundant future.

00:53:45.000 Alex, what about you as it relates to tariffs and trade policy right now to be able to secure that production for the future?

00:53:52.000 I'm putting out something on this soon.

00:53:53.000 I have, I think, a considerably different position than I've heard.

00:53:57.000 I think part of what's happened is there is a really legitimate concern about certain structural issues with the United States economy, including dependence on China.

00:54:09.000 And in particular, we definitely have...

00:54:12.000 Unnecessarily diminished industrial capacity.

00:54:15.000 And you see this especially in, like you mentioned, critical minerals, rare earth dependence on China.

00:54:20.000 These are really serious kinds of things.

00:54:23.000 Worries about, hey, in a wartime situation, are we going to be able to ramp up manufacturing in the way that we would like to be?

00:54:29.000 So these are very legitimate concerns.

00:54:33.000 And I think there's a temptation for tariffs because it's something fast.

00:54:38.000 It's a fast action you can do.

00:54:41.000 I think the actual solution is entirely, I mean, it's basically two things, but the main thing is much more industrial freedom.

00:54:49.000 The reason for the problems that we have is just a dramatic decline in industrial freedom over the last 50 plus years.

00:54:57.000 And, you know, I mean, we could go through this chapter and verse, but the whole National Environmental Policy Act or NEPA just making it impossible to build things.

00:55:04.000 But just to give you one example, I've studied the early oil industry, the first ever pipeline, long distance pipeline.

00:55:11.000 Guess how long it took to build?

00:55:13.000 In 1870s.

00:55:15.000 Three months.

00:55:16.000 It was completed within six months of the company being started.

00:55:21.000 So think about this.

00:55:22.000 In the 1870s, we know the Empire State Building was built in slightly over a year with technology of a century ago.

00:55:28.000 So it's all that we are hamstringing ourselves.

00:55:31.000 If you have a country with property rights and clear laws against endangering others, but not like...

00:55:37.000 Quote-unquote, protecting everything in the world from any impact by us.

00:55:40.000 If you have that, if you have innocent until proven guilty for businesses, if you have clear laws...

00:55:46.000 Written by usually Congress and enforced clearly, like that system, there is no comparison to that.

00:55:51.000 There's no comparison to that whatsoever.

00:55:53.000 But unfortunately, we created this kind of green fascist system, which in many ways this administration is trying to undo, but it needs Congress's help a lot because you can only do so much to the executive. 0.89

00:56:03.000 But this lack of industrial freedom is the reason for our diminished industrial capacity.

00:56:09.000 Part of this industrial freedom, part of what makes it better is actually trade, particularly with allies who also have industrial freedom and are aligned with us.

00:56:19.000 Because that way we get to take advantage of the resources of other places.

00:56:23.000 Canada has three times our oil reserves.

00:56:26.000 They have three times our oil reserves.

00:56:27.000 We could have an amazing relationship with Canada.

00:56:29.000 They, like us, have limitless natural gas.

00:56:31.000 The two of us together could just be even more dominant on the world stage.

00:56:37.000 We have a lot of...

00:56:38.000 In common with Australia, there's all sorts of other things.

00:56:41.000 So it's going to be totally crucial to have these relationships to deal with China. 0.95

00:56:45.000 Now, with China, I think the main problem has been that we have not been clear about how we designate them.

00:56:52.000 Are they an ally?

00:56:53.000 Are they an enemy?

00:56:54.000 Are they a beloved trading partner?

00:56:55.000 You need to decide what China is, and they make policies accordingly.

00:57:01.000 But ultimately, you're going to need industrial freedom and trade to outcompete.

00:57:06.000 To out-compete China, or hopefully China becomes more civilized and less communist. 0.70

00:57:09.000 That would be the ideal.

00:57:12.000 And one final thing is, there is a legitimate thing of, hey, we need some things domestically for wartime, but I believe the way to deal with that is not to subsidize industries and not to pass general import taxes, which is what tariffs are essentially.

00:57:25.000 It's to say, hey, the government needs to set aside certain critical minerals deposits.

00:57:30.000 It needs to set aside even certain manufacturing facilities as part of its military strategy.

00:57:34.000 So we can make some of that stuff a military expenditure, but I don't think that we want to pass taxes.

00:57:40.000 And screw up our relationships with our allies and create uncertainty in the markets.

00:57:44.000 Because unfortunately, what you're seeing right now, and this is why we need really good trade deals soon, is we have a lot of uncertainty in the markets.

00:57:50.000 Oil prices are getting depressed.

00:57:53.000 And that's really hurting the oil industry.

00:57:56.000 And they're not going to do anything until they have more certainty, plus their steel costs are going up.

00:58:01.000 So I think if we can, you know, there are different forces and different advisors.

00:58:04.000 And I'm not an official advisor, but my advice is go in the direction of...

00:58:09.000 Double, triple down on the industrial freedom, double down on the trade with allies having even better relationships, and then do some specific stuff with regard to security in China.

00:58:18.000 That's my idea.

00:58:21.000 James, do you support increasing oil and gas production in America?

00:58:24.000 Do you agree with the notion of the importance of ramping that up?

00:58:28.000 There's obviously been a lot of debate, but there does seem to be some common ground in pushing back against the left sort of climate hysteria.

00:58:36.000 Yeah, absolutely.

00:58:37.000 And I think actually to utilize all of America's oil and gas resources, I think there's going to be some incredible opportunities to leverage battery technology in areas that, you know, I've talked to oil.

00:58:48.000 I know the number one natural gas rights owner in Texas.

00:58:51.000 We have coffee together.

00:58:53.000 I mean, I know oil and gas grows here too.

00:58:56.000 And, you know, when we talk about this stuff, he's getting paid a dollar in MCU, Don.

00:59:00.000 For the stuff he's sending out in some of the far reaches of the lines, by the time he nets the pipe fees.

00:59:06.000 He could get $7 in MCU making electricity for an AI center if he could use a bank of small-scale turbines recharging a battery bank.

00:59:17.000 That then could tie into potentially a 20% capacity effect with some solar that is unsubsidized and caught in super cheap.

00:59:25.000 So why aren't they doing that now?

00:59:27.000 That seems like a no-brainer then.

00:59:28.000 Because battery technology is the innovation of our time.

00:59:32.000 It has moved so fast in the last three years.

00:59:35.000 I've built a company off of that innovative push because my homeowners don't get to manipulate the subsidies.

00:59:40.000 They get the 30% equivalent.

00:59:42.000 That's it.

00:59:42.000 So what I have to do every year is make a 15% compounded better.

00:59:45.000 So yeah, we're talking to those people.

00:59:48.000 I have people that are, I'm so busy with the manufacturing side, but we have people in the oil and gas field that are discussing, hey, how do we take the AI centers?

00:59:56.000 To the hard-to-tap resources.

00:59:58.000 Because who cares who your center is?

01:00:00.000 As long as I get internet out there, it's much easier than getting power.

01:00:03.000 So you're going to see some incredible opportunities to...

01:00:07.000 Batteries are not necessarily a renewable technology.

01:00:10.000 It's like on my own house.

01:00:11.000 I'm using fossil sources from the grid, and I am buying it off-peak hours, and I've cut my power bill 75%.

01:00:17.000 So batteries are a bonus technology that the U.S. needs to be able to make.

01:00:23.000 And, you know, I just say, you know, I see the pushback on, you know, your father's policies, and I think it's just not fair.

01:00:29.000 I think that the majority of Americans sent your father to the White House as our negotiator.

01:00:34.000 The cookie's in the kitchen.

01:00:35.000 The meal's not served.

01:00:37.000 And we're in this with your father on finding the right spot, and we know he's going to get a good deal.

01:00:44.000 So if you're the administration, what are the next steps that you're trying to do to figure these things out?

01:00:48.000 You know, our focus entirely is hiring more manufacturing workers, training them up, because job training and education for high school-level people in rural America is not where it needs to be.

01:00:58.000 So if you're a manufacturer here, you've got to invest in your people.

01:01:02.000 We've done it at Signature Solar and EG4.

01:01:04.000 Now we're doing it at Solar 76, our factory company.

01:01:07.000 So we have to put people up to production levels where they are meeting or exceeding Chinese productivity, because the Chinese are about a third of our labor costs, although labor is only a 15% driving factor on a product. 0.85

01:01:18.000 My goal is to make rural Texas competitive with China, which means I've got to get people who first meet the productivity level of China. 0.99

01:01:26.000 We're very close on an everyday worker already, like a few months into full production.

01:01:31.000 And I think what Americans will do is sit around the break room and actually innovate on manufacturing, and they're going to adopt AI better than the rest of the world because of the culture that we have of freedom and of individual contribution.

01:01:45.000 So my goal is to make this new generation technology a completely American thing.

01:01:51.000 And if we wanna import components

01:01:53.000 We're going to support the government by changing our supply chains to match the foreign policy that our lead negotiator came out with.

01:02:06.000 And that's what it is to be an American right now.

01:02:10.000 Can I just say one quick thing about China?

01:02:15.000 I want to avoid any wrong implication.

01:02:17.000 So I think China, like, there are a number of diplomatic tools that we can use against China in different kinds of things, and there are all sorts of issues with them, like stealing our technology, stealing IP. 0.94

01:02:28.000 There's a laundry list, which I'll write about soon.

01:02:31.000 But I don't think tariffs right now are the effective way of dealing with them.

01:02:35.000 Like, if you look at the nuclear industry, like, they're really getting harmed by that fusion in particular, which is an important area of innovation.

01:02:42.000 Like, they have...

01:02:43.000 I think you need to...

01:02:53.000 industrial freedom your way out of that have specific targeted punishments toward China that are not tariffs that punish us, but that actually punish China.

01:03:01.000 So there's more to say about that, but I just want to be clear, like, I don't think the tariffs are the right mechanism right now.

01:03:06.000 I think that we need to do other things to solve the problems that are rightly being recognized.

01:03:11.000 Now, Alex, you know,

01:03:13.000 I don't even disagree with you as it relates to some of the sort of instability in the markets right now, but isn't there also a sort of a cost?

01:03:20.000 To rushing into a bad trade deal?

01:03:22.000 Don't we need to perhaps reorient maybe the whole system?

01:03:27.000 And some of that takes time.

01:03:28.000 I think maybe that's the problem with being in a trade war or any kind of war with China.

01:03:33.000 We are so accustomed to sort of this instant gratification society.

01:03:37.000 We live in a two-year political cycle and people make bad decisions for the long run to be elected in two weeks, as opposed to 50 years.

01:03:46.000 That, to me, seems to take some time.

01:03:48.000 How do we avoid those pitfalls so you don't end up basically being in the same place?

01:03:53.000 Well, I mean, I think this is another controversial view, but I think ultimately, like, you want...

01:03:58.000 Yeah, I think ultimately the long-term deals, like, you need to be made by Congress, and it's just because, like, the stability is very key to all of these deals.

01:04:07.000 And so Congress, like, gave the executive a certain amount of power, and I can understand the temptation to use it, but, like, I think it needs to be a congressional thing, because you're seeing right now the instability and unpredictability of depending on any particular person is a real issue that the markets will always have.

01:04:22.000 So that's one thing.

01:04:23.000 I think, I mean, like, you know, I'm not...

01:04:26.000 So, you know, we're in a certain position right now.

01:04:28.000 I would say that, like, in general, the deals are going to be lowering the tariffs.

01:04:34.000 Like, I think the negotiations that should happen are fairly straightforward in terms of fundamentally, you want to get other countries to lower barriers and have us lower barriers.

01:04:43.000 So that's primarily lowering tariffs, but then also lowering if they have some particular, like, refusal to import our stuff.

01:04:50.000 I'm not saying that justifies a tariff by us, but, like, that's the kind of thing you want to negotiate.

01:04:53.000 But I think fundamentally, Overall, the deals are not that complex, especially with your allies.

01:05:01.000 I think Elon was right.

01:05:02.000 You want...

01:05:03.000 A tariff-free zone, where with your allies with Europe, with Canada, with Australia, we need a lot more industrial freedom at home, and then we need freedom to trade with them.

01:05:11.000 So that's what I'd focus on first.

01:05:13.000 Also our allies in Asia, you know, Vietnam, Japan.

01:05:16.000 Like, that's what we want, is this entire block of free nations, or relatively free nations, that have incredible free trade, that are all doubling down on industrial freedom, to counterweight China.

01:05:26.000 You know, just being in Africa, I've been there.

01:05:29.000 But for my honeymoon, even, like, go to the different places.

01:05:32.000 I mean, China's just trying to take over there. 1.00

01:05:34.000 James mentioned Chile.

01:05:35.000 Like, China's very strategic about all these relationships.

01:05:38.000 People say China has used tariffs.

01:05:40.000 China's dramatically lowered tariffs over the past five decades as part of their strategy.

01:05:44.000 But you still can't buy a Ford in China.

01:05:49.000 It goes beyond tariffs, in a little way.

01:05:51.000 I mean, there's other obstacles.

01:05:53.000 That's why I said other kinds of...

01:05:55.000 Other kinds of things.

01:05:56.000 Yeah, so you want to minimize as many of those as possible.

01:06:01.000 So that's, again, and I can mainly speak to energy and industry because those are the things I know most directly.

01:06:08.000 Like, right now, that's what I'm saying.

01:06:11.000 It's just what I think, but it's also...

01:06:13.000 What I'm hearing from other people, if they had stability, if we had what Elon is advocating and others are advocating on the free trade side with more industrial freedom, that would be a really exciting level of stability, and it would be more economic growth, which for oil and gas is what they depend on.

01:06:28.000 If you're in the Permian Basin, there's no amount of deregulation we're going to do there that's going to materially affect their finances and their ability to drill baby drill.

01:06:37.000 If they have an innovation 10 years from now, yes.

01:06:39.000 But the main thing is they need prices to be at a certain level.

01:06:43.000 It doesn't need to be too high.

01:06:44.000 But if the prices crash due to economic instability, that is going to dramatically reduce energy dominance, at least with oil and gas.

01:06:52.000 James, how do you see tariffs?

01:06:54.000 Does it create an opportunity onshore American jobs or not?

01:06:58.000 Yeah.

01:06:59.000 I think my mind's a little poisoned.

01:07:01.000 I'm a CEO that's built a company from zero to 400 employees.

01:07:05.000 In a few years.

01:07:06.000 And I'm just looking at the calendar.

01:07:09.000 It's April 22nd.

01:07:10.000 If I had my team try to lead the company by committee and question everything I did in a few-week pattern when something complex was underway, I've gone through it a lot in just five years as just a small little company that's grown in scale.

01:07:25.000 And again, I just kind of, like, on the current situation, the big picture is...

01:07:31.000 Especially if you're something critical to the American economy, you're going to be better off making it in the United States. 0.77

01:07:36.000 And the future of manufacturing is automated.

01:07:38.000 It's great middle-class jobs for people who run those automated lines.

01:07:41.000 So as an American company, your only safe bet is to invest in America.

01:07:44.000 I feel like it's been that way since last year.

01:07:47.000 So for me, we have confidence in technology.

01:07:49.000 And our supply chain can go to allies.

01:07:52.000 It can also go straight to the U.S. I'm sitting on a smack over region, which is some of the highest quality lithium in the world.

01:07:57.000 It's going to be refined 20 miles down the road with a lithium refining position, with a lithium refining joint.

01:08:03.000 As long as it's clear, especially on energy, that we want to follow an American First policy.

01:08:10.000 We're businesses that work in this economy.

01:08:12.000 I think everyone knew the power the executive had on tariffs from the 2018 timeframe, and they sent Donald Trump to the White House.

01:08:18.000 And the bottom line is, you know, I don't want my employees losing confidence in their CEO in a few weeks.

01:08:24.000 And so, you know, we haven't lost confidence that all of a sudden the Trump campaign doesn't listen to people.

01:08:32.000 You guys got elected listening to people.

01:08:34.000 So I hope everybody's keeping track of the effect on the economy and the effect on small businesses.

01:08:38.000 I'm sure you guys are.

01:08:39.000 But I also know how hard it is to get a good deal.

01:08:42.000 I've negotiated with China before for years.

01:08:44.000 I've done hundreds of millions of business there.

01:08:48.000 Gosh, I have in-laws that are Chinese.

01:08:50.000 I go there all the time.

01:08:53.000 Shoot, I was there last week.

01:08:55.000 And what I would say is that there's a lot of anti-China rhetoric, but I think we need to be careful here because we're going to avoid learning the right lessons.

01:09:05.000 This country is moving away from subsidies on green stuff.

01:09:10.000 When they're doing well, we assume that they're cheating.

01:09:13.000 We have to say, no, actually, maybe we're doing poorly because Washington is so bloated because of the kind of subsidies that Alex and I are ready to fight against.

01:09:21.000 Yeah, well, they're more than happy to still sell us sort of overpriced subsidized windmills that they're making and manufacturing because that's a benefit to them.

01:09:28.000 They may just not use them themselves. 0.97

01:09:29.000 No, they're just laughing that we're subsidizing because they're not stupid enough to subsidize windmills anymore. 0.86

01:09:35.000 But I would highlight, like, so there's the subsidies, which, you know, I'm totally against, and we should totally get rid of those. 0.77

01:09:42.000 But the main thing they have on us is they actually have much more industrial freedom than we do.

01:09:46.000 Because they don't have as much industrial freedom as we used to when we had real property rights.

01:09:50.000 But you can actually build stuff quickly in China.

01:09:52.000 And so that's what we need to do with Congress and the executive, but especially Congress.

01:09:56.000 We need to really radically make it easier to develop things in the United States.

01:10:01.000 That is the number one case.

01:10:02.000 So that...

01:10:03.000 Like, liberating American industry and then trading with our allies as freely as possible, and then having targeted stuff against China.

01:10:10.000 I don't believe it's tariffs, but it's other things.

01:10:12.000 I think that is what is going to be the key to security and abundance.

01:10:17.000 I've got to insert something there.

01:10:18.000 If you want industrial freedom, come to a place like Sulphur Springs, Texas, working on a 5,000-acre industrial park.

01:10:24.000 You can meet with a city manager.

01:10:26.000 We get new factories permitted in 10 days over here.

01:10:30.000 The bottom line is...

01:10:31.000 Well, by the way, there's going to be a big difference for all of that between the red states and the blue states, and I think that's going to create some of its own internal strife.

01:10:38.000 But yeah, that's a no-brainer.

01:10:39.000 I wouldn't be trying to do this in a blue state because on any given day, the whims could change the regulations because it sounds like we're actually talking far more about regulation right now than we are about innovation or control or anything like that.

01:10:53.000 The regulatory component of that is going to be big, and so it does seem like the red states have created the freedom for you to do what you need to do, that you're not going to get in a blue state.

01:11:03.000 The federal government interferes with that so much, so it's true.

01:11:06.000 If you look at, say, oil and gas in the Permian, things where the federal government is staying relatively out of, yes, in Texas in particular, it's very industry-friendly, much more so than California where I live.

01:11:17.000 But there's a lot of federal stuff like NEPA that can just interfere anywhere.

01:11:21.000 And when you have the wrong administration, it can do stuff.

01:11:24.000 And that's part of why you need congressional action.

01:11:26.000 And this is one role the president can play, is encouraging Congress to take serious action in reconciliation and then beyond with bipartisan.

01:11:35.000 Permitting reform.

01:11:36.000 Because if you don't have that, you don't have the stability.

01:11:38.000 So as good as the president is, it's on industrial freedom stuff.

01:11:42.000 That only lasts so long.

01:11:43.000 That only can last one presidency. 0.97

01:11:44.000 You know, another person, you know, you'll have another president.

01:11:47.000 The next term could be a Democrat.

01:11:49.000 Like, you want Congress to change the laws.

01:11:52.000 And that's a hard thing.

01:11:54.000 But that's where we want to use.

01:11:55.000 That's where I would advise using political capital.

01:11:58.000 Well, I agree with all of that.

01:12:00.000 And you're right.

01:12:00.000 I mean, getting it done legislatively so it can't just be sort of erased with the stroke of the pen.

01:12:05.000 I think we'll also create a lot of the stability that we're all talking about and we want in the market.

01:12:09.000 So, Alex, James, thank you both for a great discussion.

01:12:12.000 I look forward to seeing sort of how all of this plays out and, you know, definitely want to see advancements in all of these technologies so that we can continue to have American hegemony and dominance in the energy space and in so many other places.

01:12:24.000 Absolutely.

01:12:25.000 Thanks for your time, Don, Alex.

01:12:26.000 Thanks a lot, Don.

01:12:27.000 Good to meet you, James.

01:12:28.000 Bye.

01:12:29.000 Thanks a lot, guys.

01:12:30.000 Be well.

01:12:31.000 If you own a handgun for self-defense, you don't have to choose between security and readiness.

01:12:36.000 And that's where Stopbox USA comes in.

01:12:38.000 With Stopbox USA Pro, you'll never have to choose between being able to quickly protect yourself in a time of crisis and leaving your weapon unsecured.

01:12:47.000 Here's how it works.

01:12:48.000 Totally mechanical.

01:12:50.000 Push-button locking systems give you a fast, reliable access when every second mattered without the hassle of keys or the reliance on batteries.

01:12:59.000 We've all had those boxes that open with batteries, and then when the batteries go out, it's kind of a problem.

01:13:03.000 It's 100% mechanical, so it works every time.

01:13:06.000 No power needed.

01:13:08.000 And Stopbox products are proudly made in the USA.

01:13:11.000 Can we get an amen?

01:13:14.000 I'll wait for it in the live chat.

01:13:16.000 And traveling with peace of mind is easy because Stopbox Pro is TSA compliant.

01:13:21.000 So get 10% off your entire order when you use promo code DonJr, D-O-N-J-R, plus...

01:13:29.000 Buy one, get one free on their Stopbox Pro at StopboxUSA.com.

01:13:34.000 Again, that's 10% off and a free Stopbox Pro when you use code Don Jr. at StopboxUSA.com.

01:13:43.000 Again, Don Jr., StopboxUSA.com.

01:13:45.000 Check it out.

01:13:46.000 Keep yourself safe.

01:13:47.000 Keep your guns away from your kids.

01:13:49.000 Be ready at all times.

01:13:51.000 Fast, easy, mechanical, no batteries.

01:13:54.000 Everyone wins.

01:13:55.000 All Family Pharma.

01:13:57.000 We talk about it all the time.

01:13:58.000 Be prepared for a time of crisis.

01:14:00.000 They're cutting through the red tape to get you the meds you need fast, easy, with no interference.

01:14:06.000 Whether it's ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, you know, those bad things that, you know, other guys wouldn't want you to have but have been proven to be really effective and surprisingly cheap so they don't make billions of antibiotics or other essential medications.

01:14:19.000 You can check out their website and find the medications that you need.

01:14:23.000 All Family Pharma even lets you order in bulk so you can stay ahead of the curve.

01:14:27.000 Because when you're prepared, you're in control.

01:14:30.000 Just visit allfamilypharma.com and use code DonJr10 for 10% off your

01:14:37.000 Guys, thank you so much for tuning in.

01:14:48.000 Remember to hit that like button.

01:14:50.000 Turn on your notifications.

01:14:51.000 Download the Rumble app on your smart TV.

01:14:54.000 If you're getting your podcast also on Apple or Spotify, you can get triggered right there.

01:14:59.000 If your friends get them that way, make sure they know.

01:15:01.000 Make sure you're subscribed so when we do one of these random episodes or we go at an odd time, you are aware.

01:15:08.000 Also, check out some of our incredible sponsors down below and in the video description.

Triggered - Donald Trump Jr - May 01, 2025

American Energy Dominance, Exclusive Triggered Debate w- Alex Epstein & James Showalter | Triggered Ep238

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript