Triggered - Donald Trump Jr - Justice for Charlie: Taking you Inside the Courtroom | Triggered Ep.356

00:09:56.000 Hey guys, welcome to a special Wednesday episode of Triggered.

00:09:58.000 And tonight we're going to be doing one show about one thing because it matters.

00:10:04.000 And I got to see this up close and personal in court this week.

00:10:10.000 I spent Monday and Tuesday in a courtroom in Provo, Utah, two days of testimony.

00:10:16.000 I watched every minute of it from the front row.

00:10:18.000 And I want to walk you through what I saw in that room because what the state is building and what the defense is trying to hide from you tells you really everything.

00:10:29.000 You need to know about the case.

00:10:31.000 And the case in question is obviously the murder of my good friend, Charlie Kirk.

00:10:36.000 And then we've got, you know, the perfect guest for it Human Events Senior Editor and host of Human Events Daily, Jack Posobic.

00:10:44.000 We have Graham Allen as well.

00:10:46.000 And I think Brandon Tatum will join us in a bit too.

00:10:49.000 They were all in that courtroom with me.

00:10:52.000 They saw the same things with their own two eyes.

00:10:56.000 They've been there all week.

00:10:57.000 I had to get back to the East Coast last night.

00:11:00.000 They've been covering it, you know, and every day of the hearing.

00:11:02.000 So we're going to do a deep dive.

00:11:04.000 Into all of it.

00:11:05.000 So, you know, let's get this message out.

00:11:07.000 So, you know, share this so the facts actually get out.

00:11:10.000 There's been obviously a lot of noise, and some people are very convinced of some stuff that, you know, I didn't see.

00:11:15.000 I wanted to see what was actually put out there because I think it's important to separate the noise at this point.

00:11:22.000 Guys, remember if you miss the show here on Rumble, catch us on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts for all the headlines we cover.

00:11:28.000 Go check out my news app, MXM News, where you can get the mainstream news without the mainstream bias because getting to the truth actually matters.

00:11:38.000 And with that, I guess, you know, let's just get right into it.

00:11:41.000 First, understand what this is, guys.

00:11:44.000 Okay, this is a preliminary hearing.

00:11:46.000 This is not the trial.

00:11:47.000 The state's job this week, their only job, is to show the judge enough evidence to establish probable cause.

00:11:56.000 That's the standard.

00:11:58.000 And if he finds it, this case moves forward.

00:12:00.000 It's only decided by the judge.

00:12:02.000 If he does decide that, you get a trial with a jury where the state can then present even more evidence than what you're seeing and what we saw this week.

00:12:12.000 So, in this opening chapter, I'm telling you, you know, again, having sat through two days of it, the evidence to me seems even more overwhelming against Tyler Robinson than I ever actually would have thought.

00:12:26.000 Okay.

00:12:27.000 We've seen and heard a lot of other things.

00:12:30.000 Guys, this one, you know, does not seem like the cover up.

00:12:33.000 And I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

00:12:35.000 You know, I've been pretty damn conspiratorial on a lot of things.

00:12:39.000 And I think a lot of people, understandably, have been as well because they've seen the results of those things.

00:12:44.000 They usually end up being right.

00:12:46.000 This one to me, and I'm vested because Charlie was one of my closest friends for 10 years, does not seem that way.

00:12:53.000 And I want to tell you about that front row because I was in it.

00:12:58.000 Erica was there.

00:12:59.000 Kathy and Rob, Charlie's parents, are there.

00:13:03.000 And every day, they sat through every minute of this.

00:13:06.000 I sat with them.

00:13:08.000 I watched a widow and two grieving parents show more strength in that courtroom than everyone at the defense table combined.

00:13:18.000 Now, the defense did everything they could to keep the cameras out of that courtroom.

00:13:23.000 They lost.

00:13:25.000 The hearing is being live streamed, and the American people get to watch this and see evidence like this, for example.

00:13:36.000 What are we seeing here, Agent Hall?

00:13:38.000 That's a vehicle that is believed to belong to Mr. Romanson arriving in the parking garage on campus.

00:13:45.000 He also is walking with a gait or a limp in the studio.

00:13:50.000 With a gait or what?

00:13:51.000 Limp.

00:13:53.000 Again, he seems to be having issues walking.

00:13:57.000 Now what do we see?

00:13:59.000 So it's Mr. Robinson coming up the stairs of the parking structure.

00:14:05.000 Again, he seems to be having issues walking.

00:14:08.000 Well, let me ask you this.

00:14:10.000 You believe this is Mr. Robinson returning to campus?

00:14:12.000 I do, yes.

00:14:13.000 Okay.

00:14:14.000 And what do you believe is Mr. Robinson?

00:14:16.000 The shoes are the same, and the images that we have are from my viewing and seeing Mr. Robinson on the video, it's the same person.

00:14:34.000 So, an important note about that is Tyler Robinson was seen on campus before this.

00:14:41.000 This was right before the shooting.

00:14:43.000 He was seen a few hours earlier wearing shorts and a t shirt, and he had no limp.

00:14:50.000 You know, they'd say, hey, he was meeting with Turning Point USA people.

00:14:52.000 My understanding is that he went in there to ask questions about what was going on and when.

00:14:56.000 It wasn't like he had a meeting with Turning Point people.

00:14:59.000 There's a difference.

00:15:01.000 And again, I think some of that is getting lost, you know, online.

00:15:05.000 In a fairly big way.

00:15:08.000 So then he shows back up.

00:15:09.000 He's got a limp and long, baggy pants on, almost like you'd be hiding a rifle in there.

00:15:13.000 There's also a screwdriver that was found on the rooftop with his DNA on it, almost like maybe you disassembled the rifle.

00:15:21.000 You took the action and the barrel out of the stock, compacted a little bit, could easily fit it down your leg.

00:15:27.000 I mean, that's what I took from this.

00:15:30.000 But by the end of the week, the state plans to call four witnesses and admit 40 to 50 exhibits.

00:15:35.000 Day one, Monday, I'm sitting there as the state calls its first two witnesses Officer Chris Bagley, a former UVU, which is Utah Valley University police officer who was on campus the day Charlie was assassinated, and Agent David Hull, a former State Bureau of Investigation agent.

00:15:53.000 Agent Hull walked through the surveillance picture.

00:15:57.000 Robinson appears on UVO security footage four separate times on September 10th before, during, and after the shooting.

00:16:06.000 He was not a student at the university, another point that a lot of people have not been making.

00:16:10.000 He lived four and a half hours away.

00:16:12.000 He turned himself in the next day.

00:16:15.000 And Hull confirmed what the medical examiner found.

00:16:18.000 Charlie's cause of death was a homicide, a gunshot wound to the neck.

00:16:22.000 Then, Officer Bagley, the one who climbed up onto the rooftop where they believe the shooting took place immediately after the roof that the shot essentially came from, it was accessible.

00:16:36.000 By a public stairway.

00:16:38.000 You just walk up there, and on that roof, he found a red and black screwdriver and a disturbance in the gravel, markings consistent with someone who was lying in a prone position, how you would most accurately generally shoot a rifle if you were doing something like that, with a direct line of sight to where Charlie was speaking.

00:16:55.000 And then the state played the video of the moment Charlie was shot.

00:17:00.000 I was in the room when it played.

00:17:02.000 I'm not going to describe it to you.

00:17:03.000 They actually blocked off the scene for most people.

00:17:07.000 We couldn't.

00:17:08.000 You actually even see it from there.

00:17:09.000 They made sure people covered up their screens so it couldn't get out there.

00:17:14.000 So, you know, can't describe it fully, but I did get to watch Judge Graff, a judge who does this for a living, literally visibly shaken by how violent it was.

00:17:24.000 And that probably tells you everything.

00:17:26.000 Check this out.

00:17:42.000 Yeah, that's a pretty brutal reaction.

00:17:44.000 Then came day two.

00:17:46.000 The defense seemed pretty lost in the desert for most of it.

00:17:49.000 They wasted hours of the court's time and got really nowhere.

00:17:53.000 And when they weren't wasting time, they were trying to hide things.

00:17:55.000 They fought to keep major pieces of evidence out of the public view.

00:18:00.000 At one point, they actually tried to close the entire hearing to the public.

00:18:04.000 The judge rejected that.

00:18:05.000 And then they spent a big chunk of the day arguing to hide Charlie's Christian faith from the record.

00:18:11.000 Okay, if this is obviously a crime associated with faith, you know, I guess.

00:18:16.000 Sort of makes it like a hate crime that really helps keep death penalty on the table, which is very clearly what this is, especially when you talk about Tyler Robinson's proclivity towards transgenders and all of the things that Charlie said about his religious beliefs on those issues.

00:18:32.000 When the state finally got back to the floor, Agent Hall walked the court through a never-before-seen video compilation.

00:18:40.000 Security footage stitched together showing Robinson's movement across that campus before, during, and after the assassination.

00:18:47.000 His vehicle, Very distinctly, and being able to identify plates and very distinct hubcaps, his vehicle arriving in the morning, him moving on and off campus all day, stopping to buy Chick fil A about two hours before the shooting.

00:18:59.000 Two hours before, I mean, calm enough to grab lunch.

00:19:03.000 And then the roof of the Losey Center, fleeing across it, jumping down, leaving the campus on foot with something that resembled, according to the witness, a wrapped up rifle in his hands.

00:19:17.000 On his way up before the shooting, Robinson was walking with a limp.

00:19:22.000 This is when he magically put on long pants instead of the shorts that he was wearing earlier in the day.

00:19:26.000 The state says that the limp is consistent with a rifle concealed in his pants.

00:19:30.000 After the shooting, the limp is gone.

00:19:34.000 And the most underreported fact, again, in this entire case, is that Tyler Robinson was not a student at UVU.

00:19:40.000 He lived almost four hours away from campus.

00:19:44.000 Now, it's not a crime to be on a campus.

00:19:46.000 People go do these things.

00:19:48.000 Sort of odd, though, that he would return at 12 30 at night.

00:19:53.000 Near the woods that he fled into with said, you know, rifle looking satchel earlier in the day.

00:20:01.000 Now, the state also introduced a letter from Pastor David Englehart, a TPUSA board member, because the state is arguing Charlie was targeted for exactly who he was, exactly who everyone knew Charlie to be, and his Christian beliefs, and what he represented.

00:20:19.000 And again, that matters legally, because if the state can show Robinson targeted Charlie over his beliefs, It supports the victim targeting enhancement, and that keeps the death penalty on the table.

00:20:31.000 The defense fought that tooth and nail.

00:20:34.000 Again, Judge Graff admitted the testimony provisionally.

00:20:39.000 And then the DNA.

00:20:42.000 FBI analyst Amanda Begger took the stand, and I listened to her lay it out.

00:20:47.000 Robinson's DNA on the screwdriver recovered from that roof and on the towel wrapped around the rifle recovered in the woods near campus.

00:20:57.000 And a second person's DNA on that towel, Lance Twiggs.

00:21:02.000 Okay, that was Robinson's roommate and romantic partner, the one that was, I guess, transgender, who is believed to be cooperating with the prosecution.

00:21:10.000 Check this out.

00:21:12.000 Robinson replied, Why did I do it?

00:21:14.000 Twiggs said, Yeah.

00:21:15.000 Robinson explained, I had enough of his hatred.

00:21:18.000 Some hate cannot be negotiated out.

00:21:20.000 If I'm able to grab my rifle unseen, I will have left no evidence.

00:21:26.000 So step back.

00:21:27.000 And look at what the two days built.

00:21:29.000 Surveillance putting him on campus four times.

00:21:32.000 A rooftop with a public access stairway.

00:21:34.000 A screwdriver with his DNA on it.

00:21:37.000 Prone marks in the gravel with a line of sight to Charlie.

00:21:40.000 A compilation video tracking him from his car to that roof and off it.

00:21:45.000 A limp that shows up with apparently a concealed rifle and disappears when he's carrying the rifle and it's no longer concealed.

00:21:54.000 His DNA again on the tools, and he wasn't a student there.

00:21:59.000 And he drove three hours to be there and come back numerous times and come back again at 12 30 a.m.

00:22:05.000 Here is Robinson inside the interrogation room after turning himself in, which is another kind of major point in all of this.

00:22:14.000 Davis, who are we seeing here?

00:22:17.000 That's Tyler Robinson.

00:22:19.000 And although we are watching it on video, what is he wearing at this time?

00:22:24.000 He's working a dark colored baseball cap with a, that's like a, I believe it's like our, maybe the Hurdy symbol on it.

00:22:30.000 Like a white symbol on front.

00:22:32.000 It's a burgundy short sleeve shirt with no graphics.

00:22:35.000 It's blue jeans and gray and white tennis shoes.

00:22:40.000 I believe they're Converse style tennis shoes.

00:22:44.000 Thank you.

00:22:44.000 Was Mr. Robinson arrested in the early hours of September 12th?

00:22:51.000 Is that right?

00:22:52.000 Yes, that's correct.

00:22:53.000 Did he remain in Washington County Sheriff's Office or was he taken somewhere else?

00:22:58.000 No, he was transported from there to the Utah County Jail.

00:23:03.000 Prior to being transported to the Utah County Jail, was any, I guess, personal property taken from him, clothing, anything like that?

00:23:13.000 The only thing that was, so prior to our arriving to the St. George, to the Washington County Sheriff's Office, his cell phone was seized and taken from his person, but that was the only thing that was taken from him at that time.

00:23:27.000 After he was transported to Utah County Jail, were any personal items taken from him?

00:23:35.000 Yes, they were.

00:23:36.000 And what were those?

00:23:38.000 After a search warrant was granted, his clothing was recovered, along with buckle swabs to collect his DNA and major case prints, which is fingerprints, palm prints, pretty much the entire hand.

00:23:53.000 Those are all collected from him.

00:23:56.000 So, having watched the defense for two straight days, they know it, okay?

00:24:01.000 They're not really contesting the evidence, they're fighting over whether you get to see it or not.

00:24:07.000 They can try and seal an exhibit.

00:24:09.000 They can argue for hours about a letter, but they can't erase who Charlie was.

00:24:16.000 And they can't hide what he believed because he spent his, literally his whole life, saying it out loud on campuses, exactly like that one.

00:24:26.000 Ask me how I know because I've done about 100 of them with Charlie.

00:24:29.000 And with that, guys, joining me now, Jack Basobic and Graham Allen.

00:24:34.000 They've been in Provo in that courtroom covering this hearing from the very first gavel.

00:24:39.000 They were there today when I wasn't able to be.

00:24:41.000 So, Guys, thank you so much for taking the time.

00:24:44.000 I really appreciate it.

00:24:47.000 Hey, Don, thanks so much.

00:24:48.000 Actually, Graham, believe it or not, he is still at the courthouse right now.

00:24:53.000 I've actually just left there to come here.

00:24:56.000 They were sort of getting some, having a strategy session, if you will.

00:25:00.000 And so I ducked out early because I didn't want to leave the triggered audience hanging.

00:25:05.000 So Graham is going to come in if he can get out of that session in time.

00:25:10.000 No worries.

00:25:11.000 First off, what's the latest?

00:25:14.000 On how the court wrapped up today.

00:25:16.000 What's the latest on the Lance Twig video?

00:25:20.000 How's the judge addressing it?

00:25:21.000 Did that even get out today or was the stall tactic sort of working?

00:25:24.000 Because I know today was a half day.

00:25:25.000 You didn't start till one o'clock, right?

00:25:29.000 No, that's exactly right.

00:25:30.000 And you're also exactly correct.

00:25:32.000 The stall tactics have indeed been successful for yet another day in a row.

00:25:38.000 So, yesterday we got three hours of argument as to whether or not DNA is real.

00:25:44.000 I'm on the side that I believe DNA is real.

00:25:46.000 I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, yes, genetics and DNA, that's probably all real.

00:25:51.000 But of course, we got three hours of filibuster yesterday that, oh, maybe it's not.

00:25:56.000 We'll see.

00:25:57.000 Then, today, the big piece today.

00:26:00.000 So, we did get the one piece of evidence that we got out, which is big.

00:26:03.000 And I'm not going to say that it wasn't.

00:26:06.000 And I'm a little heated because I'm just coming from the courthouse.

00:26:10.000 No, I get it.

00:26:11.000 You take it so personally.

00:26:12.000 Every time they object to something, you want to just, you know, it's hard.

00:26:16.000 Yeah.

00:26:17.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:26:19.000 And so we got the video of Tyler inside the Washington County Sheriff's Department.

00:26:24.000 We've never seen this before.

00:26:26.000 There were some people who had said at one point that there was no video of that.

00:26:29.000 Well, guess what?

00:26:30.000 There is a video.

00:26:31.000 There he is.

00:26:32.000 He's in the Washington County Sheriff's Department.

00:26:34.000 Right before his interview.

00:26:35.000 Now, we didn't get to hear that interview, but we were told that we were going to hear the interview not of Tyler Robinson today, but actually an interview with Lance Twiggs.

00:26:46.000 This is the trans boyfriend who held the interview with state and federal law enforcement at a different police department, St. George Police Department nearby.

00:27:01.000 Now, here's what happened in court today that video didn't come out.

00:27:07.000 Then they said, Well, what if we can just play the audio?

00:27:10.000 Then there was an argument that the audio should be redacted.

00:27:13.000 Then they went back and forth about the redactions for so long today that not a single instant of that has come out yet at all.

00:27:24.000 And I just have to say, as somebody who wants transparency, I think this was a huge blow for transparency.

00:27:30.000 I'm livid about this that we didn't get this evidence that they've had for 10 months that the defense knows is out there, that they know that this was the boyfriend who had direct.

00:27:42.000 Information that's obviously relevant to what happened with his boyfriend and what his boyfriend said to him, and they're not letting us see it.

00:27:51.000 Yeah, that's a big deal because, you know, again, you know, I know you and I for, you know, believing that, you know, the entire state of Utah, the people involved, you know, believe it to be Tyler Robinson, you know, there's those that don't.

00:28:08.000 And, you know, I'm of the mindset.

00:28:11.000 Like, I spent a lot of time, as you have, you know, Talking with Charlie, talking on stage with Charlie.

00:28:15.000 I mean, the transgender issue was something that Charlie, you know, hit hard and often.

00:28:21.000 I mean, him and I were talking about these things publicly back in like 17 before it was a thing, you know, the men playing in women's sports and this kind of, I mean, you know, the fact that the, you know, alleged shooter is obviously, you know, quite trans sympathetic.

00:28:35.000 His boyfriend was trans or what, girlfriend, I don't, you know, who knows, you know, what it actually is.

00:28:42.000 Careful. 1.00

00:28:42.000 Wait, wait, you want to misgender? 1.00

00:28:43.000 Yeah, I don't want to misgender someone.

00:28:44.000 So, but, More importantly, understanding the general violence that has come from the radicalized people within that movement, the number of mass shootings.

00:28:54.000 Frankly, it was what Charlie was literally talking about seconds before he was killed.

00:29:00.000 Literally being one of the maybe the most violent group in America.

00:29:04.000 I guess maybe he was going to try to make a distinction for gang violence if I remember the conversation that he was having, literally seconds before he was killed.

00:29:12.000 But it was about this very issue.

00:29:15.000 To me, again, when I saw the rest of the evidence, then you hear, you know, you see the text, you see what he cared about, the shooter.

00:29:26.000 Man, it feels like this is someone like so many others in that community that have acted out and been incredibly violent.

00:29:33.000 Seems really fitting.

00:29:34.000 I mean, I don't think you have to be a conspiracy theorist to be like, you know what, that's a pretty plausible argument.

00:29:39.000 I mean, I think anyone who is conspiratorial, and, you know, over the last decade, you have every right to be.

00:29:46.000 So much of this settled a lot of the things that I hadn't talked about in quite some time.

00:29:51.000 How about you?

00:29:54.000 No, I mean, there was a trans shooting at a Catholic school in Minneapolis just two weeks prior to this taking place.

00:30:03.000 So, I mean, it was something that was very much in the news. 0.98

00:30:07.000 It was a trend that we had been seeing throughout 2025. 0.95

00:30:09.000 And unfortunately, it has continued into 2026, where we see school shootings by members of the trans community. 0.73

00:30:18.000 Now, in this case, he wasn't trans himself, but the boyfriend was.

00:30:23.000 And so we were going to hear from the trans boyfriend on tape talking about, presumably, his gender identification, these issues, all of these things that obviously Charlie had been talking about for years.

00:30:37.000 And we saw yesterday that the defense, this was the same lawyer, by the way, this Mr. Novak, fought tooth and nail to prevent any of those issues from being brought up.

00:30:46.000 He said, oh, this isn't about.

00:30:47.000 Politics.

00:30:48.000 This isn't about religion.

00:30:49.000 It's not about gender.

00:30:50.000 Well, they wanted to make it clear that it wasn't about religion because I think.

00:30:54.000 Well, but they also wanted to separate out religion because then it sort of adds that, you know, let's call it, you know, think of it like a hate crime statute.

00:31:02.000 But like Charlie's politics and his religion were so intertwined, they're one and the same. 0.55

00:31:06.000 I mean, you can be, you know, against some of the trans insanity politically and also be against it based on his very serious Christian faith. 0.62

00:31:17.000 And he said both of those things very often. 0.92

00:31:23.000 Right.

00:31:23.000 And so it's very obvious.

00:31:25.000 And even if you didn't have to know Charlie to know that that's where he got his position when it comes to traditional gender roles and marriage and all these things, you could just watch him for five minutes and say, oh, yeah, this guy probably follows the Bible because he literally talked about it every time he went to speak anywhere in the world.

00:31:44.000 This is what he always said.

00:31:46.000 And so the idea that you could separate, we're not talking about having to have an argument over, you know, which religion is real or, you know, church and state or all these things.

00:31:54.000 No, no, no, no.

00:31:55.000 It's a question of, What did Charlie believe?

00:31:59.000 And then what was the motive of the shooter?

00:32:02.000 But it's very clear that the defense is doing everything they can to separate all of that out, to get that out of the public discussion, to get that out of the courtroom, because they know how central it is to the case and how devastating it's going to be when it does eventually make its way in.

00:32:21.000 They are erecting roadblock after roadblock.

00:32:24.000 And it's very frustrating to sit there and know.

00:32:27.000 That there's only two days left, and there's so many key pieces of evidence that they're just not allowing to be heard in court.

00:32:34.000 Yeah.

00:32:34.000 I mean, you know, you and I were both in that courtroom Monday and Tuesday.

00:32:37.000 You were there all day today.

00:32:38.000 You know, can you describe to the audience what it's like, you know, in that courtroom watching all of this?

00:32:46.000 So, I mean, it's, I mean, I can speak for myself, and I'm sure for you, it's similar, though.

00:32:50.000 It's surreal, is just the first word that comes to mind because you think of something that was so big.

00:32:57.000 In terms of Charlie's assassination, and just there's something that just changed the world.

00:33:03.000 It's changed the world, for lack of a better term.

00:33:05.000 It literally changed the world.

00:33:06.000 When I think in my head, there's like a couple dates that I think of.

00:33:10.000 It's like when I got married, when I had kids, and then when Charlie died.

00:33:14.000 It's like the world is just different now.

00:33:16.000 It's just a different world.

00:33:18.000 And yet all of that comes to a head in a room that is actually quite small.

00:33:23.000 I counted today there's six rows or pews.

00:33:26.000 It's kind of like church pews almost where you're sitting in with the gallery.

00:33:31.000 And so you've got obviously, you and I were there, and then Charlie's family's right there, his mom and dad, his wife.

00:33:38.000 And then there's one more row, and then Tyler Robinson's family is right there.

00:33:43.000 And right across the bar is like a couple tables.

00:33:46.000 And then there's Tyler Robinson, just a few feet away.

00:33:49.000 And all along, I mean, security obviously everywhere from Secret Service to local sheriffs and SWAT team just lining the walls on the left and right, sheriffs up in the front.

00:34:02.000 So, I mean, it was very highly secured, a lot of tension.

00:34:06.000 But then also, you know, that's why I think that these.

00:34:10.000 When we get to these filibuster tactics and we get to these, oh, I object, I object to every little thing, it's like, it's so frustrating and upsetting because we just want to hear the case.

00:34:20.000 We just want to hear the evidence.

00:34:22.000 Show us the evidence and then let's decide whether or not that evidence is, you know, it has merit, has value or not.

00:34:30.000 I thought that's what the legal system was all about.

00:34:32.000 Yeah.

00:34:33.000 So, I mean, we were sitting pretty much right next to each other on day one.

00:34:37.000 You had a slightly different angle.

00:34:39.000 And I remember when you looked over at me and be like, Tyler Robinson, he's laughing right now.

00:34:45.000 That's not something that someone who's falsely accused of something does, is it?

00:34:52.000 Even months later, you don't sit there, you know, sort of laughing with your lawyer about it.

00:34:57.000 I mean, you know, again, barring the other details of him turning himself in and, you know, the rifle being in the family and all that, we can get into the rifle because I know one of the things I take a lot of heat on right now is like, you know, could a 30-odd six do that?

00:35:09.000 So, you know, we can address this, you know, we can address this next because, you know, there are those that are.

00:35:16.000 You know, pushing a lot of things that, again, I've listened to all of it over the last few months.

00:35:20.000 I haven't chimed in because I don't, frankly, know what was real, what was conjecture, you know, what was actual evidence.

00:35:27.000 Most of the stuff we saw in the room over the last few days was all new, things I had never seen before.

00:35:33.000 You know, I don't know about yourself, but, you know, what were your thoughts on some of that?

00:35:38.000 Well, I mean, I do think that, well, first of all, you know, I remember watching the Kyle Rittenhouse case, and I don't remember Kyle Rittenhouse laughing when he was on the stand.

00:35:46.000 I remember him fighting hard.

00:35:48.000 To save his life and to save his freedom and to save his future.

00:35:53.000 I'm not seeing that here.

00:35:54.000 I do remember that moment.

00:35:56.000 I'm never going to forget the moment that I saw Tyler Robinson laughing in front of Charlie Kirk's crying widow and Charlie Kirk's crying mother.

00:36:04.000 I'll never forget seeing that.

00:36:06.000 And also the fact that Tyler, even again today, has yet to turn around and not only not acknowledge Charlie's family, he hasn't even acknowledged his own mother and father who have been there every day in the courtroom.

00:36:20.000 You know, I've seen other cases or I've watched other cases where the defendant will turn and, you know, maybe have a gesture to the family or some kind of acknowledgement that they're there for him.

00:36:33.000 Not even one second of that today.

00:36:36.000 But, you know, and so that's just something that's very interesting to me.

00:36:40.000 It's very puzzling.

00:36:41.000 Why would someone not do that and just turn their back to their own mother and father?

00:36:45.000 I mean, for me, disappointing my mother, it's like the worst thing you could possibly do, right?

00:36:50.000 You know, and so it's.

00:36:51.000 You know, that's mom.

00:36:53.000 You know, you can't let mom down.

00:36:54.000 And so I just don't quite get how you can't acknowledge your own mother.

00:36:58.000 And then, so you mentioned about the evidence.

00:37:00.000 You know, a lot of this, you know, we've been sort of going back and forth, and you get a report here, you get a report there, but I've never seen it just laid out in such a methodical way, which, of course, the prosecution is trying to do.

00:37:15.000 The defense tries to stop it as much as possible because, you know, they start with the officer who was on the scene.

00:37:21.000 Then they go and he says, you know, I heard the shot.

00:37:24.000 Then he talks about how he was, you know, kind of going around trying to see what he could render aid to students, see if they could arrest somebody.

00:37:31.000 They couldn't.

00:37:31.000 Yeah, I thought I had the one guy, but he was wrong.

00:37:33.000 Then it goes to the next agent.

00:37:35.000 He showed up from the state investigators.

00:37:37.000 So he started canvassing.

00:37:38.000 He started looking at cameras.

00:37:40.000 And then it seemed that, you know, the cameras were hundreds of hours of video footage.

00:37:45.000 Yeah, hundreds.

00:37:47.000 And by the way, the footage, you could speak to this too, because you were there.

00:37:51.000 That the footage that we saw in court was so much better quality than the footage that you can see on air right now, that it just hasn't been released yet.

00:37:58.000 This was like crystal clear.

00:38:01.000 Yeah, that's what was.

00:38:02.000 To me, because again, we hadn't seen these things in the prior months.

00:38:06.000 It was all new.

00:38:07.000 And so, you know, like I said, I've taken heat, frankly, for just being quiet and wanting to see what actually is real and what's not.

00:38:14.000 You know, and again, I understand people, you're being skeptical of a lot these days.

00:38:17.000 I think, you know, man, you're in the same boat as me on that.

00:38:20.000 But again, in seeing it with my own eyes, in seeing it face to face, in watching them lay this out, to me, it became a lot more cut and dry.

00:38:28.000 But let's talk for a second about the case the state is building, right?

00:38:31.000 You got the surveillance, the rooftop, the DNA.

00:38:34.000 You've watched every witness.

00:38:36.000 What should Americans understand about the evidence?

00:38:40.000 Again, that maybe isn't getting through.

00:38:41.000 I mean, you obviously just mentioned sort of the graininess of what we've seen on television versus what we saw in the courtroom definitely paints a slightly different picture, the courtroom being much more clear and much more evident of what it is.

00:38:56.000 But for me, it was also a lot of the detail that they went, How do you know it's him?

00:39:00.000 Here's blah, Identified by this.

00:39:03.000 Here's the hubcaps on the car were very distinct, so we could tell.

00:39:05.000 Then we have partial plates that match.

00:39:08.000 Uh, you know, the credit cards or whatever it was at you know, Chick fil A, uh, you know, very different than a lot of the things I've been hearing over the last 10 months.

00:39:19.000 Yeah, I mean, it in, in for lack of a better term, it sounds like a murder case, it sounds like the traditional textbook homicide case where you've got lots of pieces of physical evidence, forensic evidence, as well as documentary evidence and electronic evidence.

00:39:38.000 I'm sure, by the way, you know, we may not have gotten there yet, but for example, you mentioned the car.

00:39:43.000 If that car's got a navigation system in it, right?

00:39:45.000 If it's got, you know, a GPS or something, well, guess what?

00:39:48.000 They're going to be able to track the car and go exactly where that was.

00:39:51.000 And then they can pair that up with the cell phone and see what the cell phone was doing and where the cell phone was.

00:39:56.000 They can even check on FBI as a way to check the elevation of the cell phone.

00:40:00.000 So they could be able to tell, was he going up the staircase?

00:40:03.000 If he had the cell phone on him, was it going up and down?

00:40:05.000 So, I mean, the level of fidelity on this evidence that they have is really very strong.

00:40:11.000 And There's so much more yet to come out that, again, because of these delay tactics, which I'm very frustrated about because I want the transparency.

00:40:20.000 But one thing that we haven't, they've mentioned this and it's come up a few times.

00:40:25.000 We haven't seen direct testimony from them yet.

00:40:28.000 But one of the pieces that I just keep coming back to is the fact that, and we got more information on the details of it today, that his mom and dad turned him in.

00:40:36.000 Yeah.

00:40:36.000 That, I mean, look.

00:40:38.000 It seems like a big deal for him.

00:40:38.000 I mean, relative to, again, some of the stuff that's getting out there.

00:40:42.000 I mean, Are you picking up that?

00:40:44.000 What dad picks up that phone if they're not sure?

00:40:47.000 You know what I mean?

00:40:48.000 Yeah.

00:40:50.000 Yeah.

00:40:51.000 Was there a moment that crossed these days?

00:40:52.000 Your heart goes out to him.

00:40:54.000 Oh, 100%.

00:40:55.000 I mean, like, that's why I said going into this, you know, it was two families ultimately really destroyed by this.

00:41:01.000 Obviously, you know, I think Charlie's white and the influence that he had with so many people and the lives that he changed, you know, it's a lot more than just his family, but all the people that followed him so well are affected by, you know, but two families just totally ruined and destroyed, you know, with this sick action.

00:41:21.000 But, Jack, was there a moment across these days that, you know, perhaps hit you harder than others, that hit you hardest?

00:41:28.000 Or one where perhaps you felt the whole room, the dynamic of the room change a little bit.

00:41:33.000 I mean, I guess there's two, if I had to say.

00:41:39.000 First one was just when we walked in on that first day and we kind of hustled in almost.

00:41:48.000 It was quick.

00:41:49.000 But then sort of turning, realizing, okay, we're in the front row.

00:41:52.000 And then it dawning on me that, oh my gosh, Tyler Robinson is, they didn't bring him in the room like in a movie, he was already there.

00:41:59.000 Yeah.

00:42:00.000 And seeing him just a couple of feet away, it sent a chill down my spine.

00:42:06.000 Just there he is, that's the guy.

00:42:10.000 And that for me was definitely an emotional moment.

00:42:14.000 And I think another one as well, and I thought about this, was that moment where it was Agent Hull and where he made the identification.

00:42:22.000 You remember that moment where he said, That is the individual.

00:42:27.000 He's seated right between the two lawyers.

00:42:29.000 He described, he's wearing a light suit with a dark tie.

00:42:33.000 I mean, I wasn't expecting that moment to affect me as much as it did, but it really did because now we've taken all of this evidence and they're still building more, but you're taking all of this together and you've got in a courtroom, you know, the state agent pointing directly at the individual who's seated right there with all of the families present saying, This is the guy I'm identifying right now.

00:42:59.000 And you could see the entire room, there's that shockwave of emotion.

00:43:02.000 I looked over, there were, you know, people obviously in tears at that, people holding hands.

00:43:07.000 I had my rosary out.

00:43:08.000 I saw other people with rosaries out.

00:43:10.000 And it was a big moment.

00:43:12.000 It was a very big moment.

00:43:13.000 And I don't even know if it plays on TV, you know, if the clip, it just doesn't quite have that same emotional weight that I think we felt when we were there.

00:43:21.000 No, it's definitely different.

00:43:22.000 It's sort of like the photo, actually, when they had the daylight photo of, you know, the knee and elbow marks where he was lying prone on the roof.

00:43:30.000 But then because the sun was beating down, you sort of lose all the shadows and you can't really see the indentation.

00:43:35.000 So they have the same crime scene preserved, taken at night with light sort of this way.

00:43:39.000 And it's like, Oh, wow.

00:43:41.000 Like it's so much more apparent that, you know, someone was there.

00:43:44.000 You could see how the knees were positioned, how the elbows were positioned.

00:43:49.000 You know, it made it, you know, so much more clear to me.

00:43:55.000 I remember that because the first picture, it just, you know, kind of looked like some gravel on the wall.

00:43:59.000 Yeah, you can see a little bit of movement, but not as much as you see it highlighted so much later.

00:44:03.000 Yeah, actually, in the first one, I actually kind of thought it was like footsteps at first.

00:44:08.000 I thought it was just like a series of footsteps because I couldn't quite see the distance as well in that shot.

00:44:15.000 And then in the second picture, when they switched it and they used the lighting to really highlight what those markings were, I mean, it looked like a cypress nest.

00:44:25.000 That's exactly what it looked like from what I saw in the military, what I remember from firing in the prone position.

00:44:31.000 That's what that is.

00:44:32.000 That's what it looks like.

00:44:33.000 That's exactly what it looks like.

00:44:35.000 Now, the defense, I watched them burn, you were there too, four hours to try to close the entire hearing to the public.

00:44:45.000 And again, watching the Utah State prosecutors wanting to show everything.

00:44:50.000 To the people, because again, they're, you know, and they're like, it's too damning.

00:44:53.000 It's like, I don't know.

00:44:54.000 There's been a lot of evidence that's been thrown out there that's not actual evidence, but a lot of that noise that's been out there in every way, shape, and form.

00:45:02.000 I mean, isn't transparency what we actually need?

00:45:07.000 You've now seen more of it than I have.

00:45:10.000 What are they actually trying to do here?

00:45:13.000 Well, to be fair, we actually didn't get a lot today.

00:45:16.000 We pretty much just got that one picture.

00:45:18.000 So, I mean, you're not missing much today because of the way the day went.

00:45:22.000 And honestly, I'm a little hot about that.

00:45:25.000 I just am.

00:45:26.000 I'll just say it.

00:45:27.000 And the idea that if they're worried about, and the judge did rule on this initially, so I'll give him credit for that.

00:45:36.000 The idea being that is if you're worried about misinformation or you're worried about people taking something out of context or you're worried about being misquoted or something, well, guess what?

00:45:46.000 The best sunlight for that is transparency, literally.

00:45:50.000 So I remember, for example, I saw online, I guess at one point, I haven't been online as much as I usually am.

00:45:58.000 And I saw that someone was saying that you remember when they were talking about the DNA mixture on the items?

00:46:05.000 It was the towel and the screwdriver.

00:46:07.000 And they were saying that one was the majority contributor, one was the minority contributor.

00:46:11.000 Well, I saw some people online saying that maybe there was a, you know, I don't know where it started, but maybe somebody got it wrong.

00:46:16.000 And they said that Lance Twiggs was the one who had 89 to 95%, you know, DNA match on those items.

00:46:24.000 And I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's exactly, you know, I pulled up my notes just to double check, but I said, wait a minute, that's the opposite of what was said in court.

00:46:31.000 What was said in court.

00:46:32.000 Was that the 89 to 95% on the towel and screwdriver was Tyler Robinson.

00:46:38.000 And Lance Twiggs was also a small partial contribution.

00:46:43.000 But that's something where initially, right after I said that, I could have my guys go and we pulled that very specific clip right up from the testimony to be able to have the agent there.

00:46:54.000 She's from the FBI lab in Quantico saying specifically that.

00:46:57.000 So if you didn't have the video or if that hadn't been shown to the wider public, guess what?

00:47:04.000 People could just say whatever they want.

00:47:06.000 And then you won't have something to be able to go back to to correct the record.

00:47:12.000 Like so many other things have had to be corrected already in this case.

00:47:16.000 And so that's why I think that fighting for transparency is huge.

00:47:19.000 There was one moment, I believe it was the first moment in the case thus far today, where, and in the hearing, where the Kirk family's representative, Jeff Neiman, actually got up and addressed the court.

00:47:33.000 And it was on that very topic of the Lance Twiggs video, saying that we, you know, I'll just read from it, the Kirk family.

00:47:40.000 Wants real transparency.

00:47:42.000 We need the world to hear everything and see everything.

00:47:46.000 We do not want to create doubt.

00:47:48.000 And the family wants full transparency for the world.

00:47:52.000 And look, if you are someone who is skeptical or someone who has questions, and to your point, we've been lied to by so many federal agencies and Dr. Fauci and all the rest for so many years that I get why people would have questions.

00:48:07.000 This is why you want those videos out and you want the full video out to see not what the government is saying.

00:48:14.000 But what the people who were closest to Tyler Robinson are saying.

00:48:19.000 Yeah, I think that's a huge distinction, right?

00:48:22.000 Again, I think you're right.

00:48:23.000 People definitely can be skeptical of the government, but your own parents don't turn you in for something you didn't do.

00:48:32.000 To what end?

00:48:34.000 Where does it go from there?

00:48:37.000 That to me was also very jarring because I think I tend to look at things with a skeptical eye with this one because there was so much information out there that, again, when I say information, I mean just.

00:48:49.000 Noise.

00:48:49.000 Some of it may have been real, some of it not even close.

00:48:53.000 A lot of the theories, you know, have clearly been debunked even prior to this thing.

00:48:58.000 And I've taken a lot of heat for not jumping onto every conspiracy that's out there.

00:49:02.000 I just, you know, again, I think I owe it to Charlie to actually, you know, really want to believe what happened.

00:49:08.000 And this has done a lot to strengthen my confidence, you know, towards that end.

00:49:14.000 You know, and again, the thing the defense is fighting hardest to keep out of that courtroom is obviously, you know, Charlie's Christian faith.

00:49:19.000 You know, their priority is, you know, burying what he believed and, frankly, what everyone believed.

00:49:24.000 Knows he believed.

00:49:26.000 What does that tell you?

00:49:29.000 Not just perhaps about this defense, but about the machine behind it that spent years basically painting Charlie as a monster for saying what he believed out loud.

00:49:40.000 And perhaps more importantly, not just saying what he believed out loud, but literally opening up his microphone to his biggest detractors almost on a daily basis.

00:49:51.000 Well, look, I mean, it speaks to everything that Turning Point USA.

00:49:58.000 Was designed and created to fight against it, speaks to the problems that we have in our country where we've gotten to a place now where, okay, what is the modern public square if not a college campus, right?

00:50:14.000 Going to a college campus to debate ideas.

00:50:16.000 And that's literally what Charlie said come debate me.

00:50:19.000 Like, if you believe that I'm wrong or you believe that I'm incorrect, prove me wrong.

00:50:25.000 You know, come on out here, let's have a discussion.

00:50:28.000 But he always did so with.

00:50:31.000 He always did so in good faith.

00:50:33.000 He brought two microphones, one for himself and one for anyone who wanted to come up.

00:50:38.000 And Charlie's rule, and we continue this, by the way, when we go out to campus, it's always been if you disagree, you get to come to the very front of the line.

00:50:47.000 And so we've, but I think it started honestly, and I know that, you know, this is something obviously you're huge on.

00:50:54.000 I think it started with censorship.

00:50:55.000 Yeah.

00:50:56.000 I think it started with censorship in the sense that.

00:51:01.000 I don't just disagree with you.

00:51:03.000 I think that you're not allowed to say the things that you believe.

00:51:08.000 So you get called to be censored on a college campus.

00:51:11.000 You can't say that on a college campus.

00:51:12.000 Yeah, and that was the difference between Charlie and everyone else.

00:51:14.000 He shouldn't be here.

00:51:15.000 He may not believe what you're saying.

00:51:17.000 But he thought you had every right to say whatever it was.

00:51:22.000 The left does not feel that way.

00:51:23.000 He never stood for that at all.

00:51:25.000 Yeah.

00:51:25.000 No.

00:51:26.000 And then so think about it, though.

00:51:28.000 So they lost the argument on college campuses.

00:51:31.000 They lost the political power because.

00:51:34.000 Then along comes Donald J. Trump and wins the popular vote seven out of seven of the swing states.

00:51:40.000 And you've got Charlie Kirk there and Turning Point USA picking up so much of the influence and going after those low prop voters, the young voters.

00:51:50.000 And so you think, okay, I can't get rid of this guy on campus.

00:51:54.000 I can't get rid of this guy politically.

00:51:57.000 Then there's only one thing left to do.

00:51:59.000 And if that's your mindset, that people need to be stopped from saying and thinking the things that they are saying, then If you become so twisted enough and so crazy enough, you might think that I've got to find other means to stop this person's speech.

00:52:15.000 And that's what happened.

00:52:16.000 Yeah.

00:52:16.000 And that was, frankly, very evident based on the response from so many of the radical leftists in the minutes and days after Charlie's murder, the celebrating it, because it wasn't that he was this violent guy, it was that he was effective at dismantling the BS that they stake their entire existence on.

00:52:42.000 They couldn't defeat him in debate, so they tried to silence him with a bullet.

00:52:47.000 And Charlie was always open to all comers.

00:52:51.000 He was always open to travel literally everywhere in the world and to just spread his beliefs about living conservative values, living Christian values.

00:53:03.000 And obviously, this is why he was targeted.

00:53:08.000 But of course, because that does make it an enhancement under Utah law, that's why the defense is trying so hard to get us from talking about anything to do with Charlie's actual beliefs.

00:53:22.000 It's not that they're irrelevant to the case.

00:53:24.000 They are the central part of the case.

00:53:27.000 Yeah.

00:53:27.000 Explain that in the stakes of that for people in plain English the victim targeting enhancement.

00:53:34.000 Why proving Charlie was targeted for his faith keeps the death penalty on the table, essentially, I guess.

00:53:41.000 Right, exactly.

00:53:42.000 So this is, and neither of us are lawyers, but we have spent time in court.

00:53:49.000 So the idea here is that, look, this is what takes.

00:53:55.000 A murder, you know, you can have like manslaughter, you can have crime of passion, you can have second degree murder, first degree murder.

00:54:01.000 Okay, you have all of those things.

00:54:02.000 But under Utah law, aggravated murder, if you want to get to that highest level, when I say you want to get, when I say for prosecutors to be able to bring on that highest level of punishment, that highest level of murder, it requires these things called enhancements.

00:54:17.000 And one of those enhancements is, which I believe they demonstrated quite clearly, is if it's done in the presence of minor children.

00:54:25.000 And obviously, that was done.

00:54:27.000 And there was a video that was played, and you could see this.

00:54:29.000 And I actually, I should have mentioned that that video was extremely emotional when they played that in the crowd because there's two little kids.

00:54:37.000 There were two little kids in the prime of their life, just one, and their mother, you know, beautiful mom, just wanted to take them to go see Charlie Kirk speak.

00:54:45.000 And then they've had their childhood now completely ripped away from them because of what they saw before their eyes just moments later.

00:54:53.000 So I actually think it's really, I could go on that for hours, but I think it's really, really important.

00:54:59.000 That is another one of the enhancements, and that's protected in law.

00:55:02.000 You destroyed their childhood, and you have to pay for that.

00:55:05.000 That's important.

00:55:06.000 Number two, though, is this victim targeting enhancement, and this is politics or religion.

00:55:12.000 And if the choice of the victim, so premeditated murder, but if it's done for politics or religion, that's another enhancement that brings it up to the highest level of capital offense.

00:55:25.000 So aggravated murder with enhancements, that's what brings the death penalty into play.

00:55:30.000 And, you know, I'll just say not.

00:55:33.000 You know, not revealing anything that, you know, that I overheard specifically, but being in the courthouse, it's very, very clear that the DA's office here is going for the death penalty.

00:55:46.000 They're very serious about this.

00:55:48.000 This is something they are taking very seriously.

00:55:50.000 They're fighting for very seriously.

00:55:52.000 And there are times where, as, you know, as a commentator and also as, you know, just a friend of the family, that I want them to be going.

00:56:05.000 And doing more and wanting them, you know, maybe play for the cameras more.

00:56:08.000 But there are times where their goal at the end of this is to get that conviction and to get that sentence.

00:56:17.000 And so they have to play a very, very tight game to be able to get there.

00:56:22.000 And this, of course, the defense knows as well.

00:56:24.000 And so that's why the defense is doing everything they can to knock them off of their game, like, for example, not allowing anything about Charlie's beliefs to come into the court.

00:56:34.000 Yeah.

00:56:35.000 Yeah, so Jack, you're in that room and then you walk out and see how some people are covering it.

00:56:43.000 How different is the story that some people are telling from what you're actually watching and learning in real time in there?

00:56:56.000 Well, it's really interesting because I'm there and I'm watching both sides, and I've got two notepads now full of notes about both sides the prosecution and the defense.

00:57:12.000 And then you go online and you see people saying things that haven't Been brought up by either side.

00:57:18.000 They haven't been brought up even by the people who are defending Tyler Robinson.

00:57:23.000 And so, you know, these things about like, you know, what type of rifle it was or what the DNA was, the defense isn't even arguing against that.

00:57:33.000 They're now they're arguing, so they're questioning credibility and things like that.

00:57:37.000 But, you know, they are, you know, it was stipulated in court that there's, again, a 95 to 89% DNA match on items that were found at the crime scene to Tyler Robinson.

00:57:51.000 Robinson.

00:57:52.000 So basically, if you're sitting there, you've got to be able to come up with a very, very good explanation for.

00:57:59.000 At this point, we have a towel, you know, a bath towel that came from your house three hours away.

00:58:05.000 It just magically found in the woods wrapped around a Mauser 98 and a screwdriver that was found up on the roof next to a sniper's perch, as we just talked about, with your DNA on it, somehow magically found its way there.

00:58:22.000 If you weren't the shooter, you're going to have to come up with some way to reasonably present an alternate theory as to how that happened.

00:58:33.000 And that's just when you look at these things logically, it becomes very hard to take that apart.

00:58:39.000 And we haven't even gotten to the gun yet.

00:58:42.000 We haven't gotten to the ATF report, which is going to be coming later in the week, the ballistics report, some of which has come out in the media, but not totally in court yet.

00:58:51.000 So, I mean, these are other key pieces of information, but every single time it comes out, You just see the scales being weighed further and further and further in favor of Tyler Robinson being the shooter.

00:59:07.000 Yeah.

00:59:07.000 So, and I've seen a lot of this, you know, as it relates to the gun.

00:59:09.000 I know they haven't really started talking about that yet.

00:59:11.000 So, they'll get to that.

00:59:12.000 You know, you heard the exploding mic theory and all these things that didn't really make sense to me, especially based on your videos that you see of the actual shooting.

00:59:20.000 I didn't see anything sort of explode that way.

00:59:22.000 The one that a lot of people, you know, understandably probably seem to latch on is that, you know, That the bullet would enter a neck and not come out from a 30 out six.

00:59:31.000 It's a 30 caliber bullet.

00:59:32.000 It's halfway between a 300 wind mag and a 308.

00:59:36.000 I know these guns well.

00:59:37.000 I do a lot of hunting.

00:59:38.000 I've done a lot of culling.

00:59:39.000 I've taken a lot of neck shots because it preserves a lot of meat when you're hunting.

00:59:45.000 And I think some of that skepticism can be founded.

00:59:49.000 I would say, Don, opine on a 30 out six.

00:59:51.000 But you can tell right away, most of the people don't really know anything about guns or anything.

00:59:56.000 I don't know the bullet that was used, I know it's a 30 out six.

00:59:59.000 That's the cartridge.

01:00:01.000 Was it a frangible bullet, in which case there's almost no chance you'd get any kind of pass through?

01:00:06.000 Was it some sort of soft point, in which case it wouldn't?

01:00:09.000 If it was a full metal jacket, you're more likely to get a pass through.

01:00:13.000 But I've definitely shot over 100 deer in my career with neck shots.

01:00:19.000 And again, sometimes helping guys, calling, meat hunting, managing for QDMA purposes.

01:00:24.000 And if you take that neck shot, I'll say nine, eight and a half, nine out of 10.

01:00:31.000 So let's just say blended average.

01:00:33.000 You know, 85, 90% of the time, you're going to get a pass through.

01:00:37.000 That doesn't mean that it happens every time.

01:00:41.000 I've seen bigger guns not get clean pass throughs.

01:00:43.000 I've seen smaller, faster bullets do it.

01:00:47.000 Everything's different.

01:00:48.000 You hit bone, that changes the dynamic of that very differently.

01:00:53.000 So it feels like everyone's sort of latching onto this.

01:00:57.000 There's no way it could have been a 30 out of 6 because you didn't get a pass through.

01:01:00.000 And it's just not accurate.

01:01:02.000 I'm not saying that that wouldn't happen the majority of the time.

01:01:05.000 I think it probably would.

01:01:07.000 Again, except for if the shooter was using frangible bullets or something, a really soft nose bullet designed essentially to go through the ribcage.

01:01:13.000 You actually don't want a bullet when you're hunting, usually to pass all the way through an animal, because that means that there's energy transferred not into the animal doing the most effective job of stopping it.

01:01:22.000 You actually want that in sort of the vital zones, doing the damage there and having the full kinetic energy of that bullet in there.

01:01:28.000 There's all sorts of ballistic arguments to be made here.

01:01:31.000 We haven't heard those arguments yet.

01:01:33.000 But yes, I mean, to the average person, how come I haven't addressed that is because there's too many variables.

01:01:38.000 I don't know yet.

01:01:41.000 And one thing, if I could add to that, is.

01:01:45.000 You know, I assume you've used a tree stand before.

01:01:49.000 How high up are your tree stands?

01:01:51.000 Yeah, it depends.

01:01:52.000 I mean, I do a lot of mountain hunting.

01:01:53.000 So, you know, you could be shooting down to 45 degree angles.

01:01:55.000 I don't think this was.

01:01:56.000 This is probably 10, 15 degree angle from a rooftop of a garage.

01:02:00.000 But yeah, that lengthens.

01:02:05.000 This was a pretty high angle.

01:02:06.000 So I went to the campus a couple of days ago.

01:02:09.000 Okay.

01:02:09.000 So I can only tell by the pictures.

01:02:11.000 It's hard to tell.

01:02:13.000 Yeah, I didn't know this until I got to the campus myself.

01:02:18.000 But from where.

01:02:20.000 That courtyard is, which is down at the bottom of this amphitheater.

01:02:23.000 And then the buildings are kind of stacked on a hill.

01:02:27.000 That when you're at the top of that Lossi Center looking down into the courtyard, you're like maybe five, six stories above where Charlie was all the way down.

01:02:38.000 So it's a downward angle shot that was going in, which is, you know, which can be.

01:02:43.000 And I see some of these videos that people are doing on YouTube and it's always like a straight horizontal shot.

01:02:48.000 And it's like, well, no, but that's not what happened.

01:02:50.000 Obviously, listen, the hypotenuse of triangle, you're going to have.

01:02:52.000 Again, there's so many.

01:02:54.000 Yeah, there's so many different variables that I think we need to get in.

01:02:59.000 And look, we were already told that it did fragment.

01:03:04.000 And the autopsy, in terms of what's been released, is that it did hit bone, that it fragmented.

01:03:11.000 And we also know the age of the bullet, by the way.

01:03:14.000 We know it's World War II era, so it could be an older bullet.

01:03:18.000 And that it was those fragments that were later recovered from Charlie.

01:03:23.000 And so we do know that there was fragmentation.

01:03:25.000 That's something that has come out from the ATF report.

01:03:28.000 Okay, so yeah, I mean, it's just the thing that I get, you know, asked a lot, just having been a former competitive shooter and like, you know, very avid hunter.

01:03:36.000 You know, I've done a lot of this.

01:03:37.000 And again, I understand the skepticism, but, you know, there is not an end all be all answer.

01:03:42.000 This is going to happen every time.

01:03:43.000 Like I said, for me, you know, neck shooting, you know, deer, you know, elk, you may not get a pass through all that often, frankly.

01:03:51.000 It's a much bigger animal, but to create something approximately the size of a human neck, and generally, if you're culling does or something like that, it's probably smaller than a human neck.

01:03:59.000 And I'd say, you know, 85% of the time, you'd get a full pass through on a larger neck ammo, a buck, maybe 80, but between 80 and 90.

01:04:10.000 But there is that thing.

01:04:12.000 And then again, not knowing what the specific bullet, meaning the actual projectile, not the cartridge, we know it's a 30 out of 6, but people oftentimes don't know that.

01:04:18.000 Those are the people that draw the entire bullet and the casing and everything going out of the barrel of the gun.

01:04:24.000 It's just not how that works without knowing that.

01:04:27.000 And everything's an AR 15.

01:04:29.000 When an AR 15 can blow a hole this big into the size of a school bus, it's like, Frankly, AR 15, you know, the 223556 round.

01:04:37.000 In many states, it's not even legal to hunt deer with because they don't think it has enough stopping power.

01:04:42.000 So, you know, there's a lot of noise out there about the gun.

01:04:45.000 I, you know, I get it in here.

01:04:46.000 Don't you know?

01:04:47.000 I was like, no, dude, I know.

01:04:49.000 And like I said, 80, 85% of the time, you're probably going to get a pass through.

01:04:52.000 You hit bone, frangible bullets, extra soft points, older ammunition.

01:04:59.000 There is just a lot that can happen.

01:05:01.000 This is not one of those things that's an absolute, unfortunately.

01:05:05.000 You know, I believe Martin Luther King was killed with a 30 out of 6, and there wasn't a pass through either.

01:05:12.000 That's right.

01:05:12.000 The phrase I always hear from, you know, like soft guys and guys in that world is that bullets do weird things.

01:05:18.000 Yeah, they do.

01:05:20.000 They do.

01:05:20.000 So it's just one of those things that, you know, keeps coming up.

01:05:22.000 People like, you haven't addressed it.

01:05:23.000 It's like, well, I don't have the information because I don't know what the projectile actually was, meaning the specific bullet coming out of a 30-odd six case.

01:05:31.000 You know, again, a frangible bullet, nine times out of 10, it wouldn't pass through.

01:05:35.000 It may not, maybe even less than that.

01:05:37.000 It could just blow up on the spot.

01:05:39.000 I don't know what he was using, I don't know what his capabilities were.

01:05:42.000 So, you know, I can't opine on that, but I wanted to make sure to address it, at least in some detail here, because it's one of those facts that everyone's just latching onto.

01:05:50.000 Like, you know, it had to be a guy with a suppressed round, or, you know, you've heard the air gun theories.

01:05:54.000 It's like, you know, I've shot large caliber air guns.

01:05:57.000 Like, there's, you would have heard the noise. 0.68

01:05:59.000 Like, they're not, it's not poof.

01:06:01.000 Large caliber air guns are damn loud.

01:06:04.000 Someone else would have heard that.

01:06:05.000 They would have picked up the report on any one of these videos.

01:06:09.000 You know, to me, it didn't sound like a handgun.

01:06:11.000 There's a very distinct difference between, you know, a rifle shout sound.

01:06:15.000 And a handgun shot sound on a range, to me, in the audio of the shooting, very distinctly to me, a rifle.

01:06:23.000 Doesn't mean I'm 100% right.

01:06:25.000 Maybe the speaker was turned to a different way, but you add up enough of these things.

01:06:29.000 And again, I think you certainly get the probable cause here that this is what it is.

01:06:33.000 But I don't want to skirt the issue because it keeps coming up.

01:06:36.000 And depending on where you're talking, you're getting a very different level of response.

01:06:42.000 Well, and Don, but to our point, right?

01:06:45.000 This is why we want things like the ATF report to be released to the public completely and the ballistics report.

01:06:54.000 And yes, unfortunately, the autopsy as well.

01:06:58.000 Because if we have more information, then you and I don't have to play these guessing games and we could put something together and say, okay, so it was this way and then this happened and here's how it went.

01:07:07.000 And so the prosecution has been trying to get this evidence out, but it's been the defense that's delaying it every single time.

01:07:15.000 So, to your point, you know, here's something that people are talking about online.

01:07:19.000 But it hasn't even come up in the court yet because they're not letting it in.

01:07:23.000 Yeah.

01:07:23.000 So, you know, I think that's important.

01:07:25.000 Hopefully, we'll get to all of that information tomorrow.

01:07:27.000 And again, I just want to get to the truth.

01:07:29.000 I want to find it out.

01:07:30.000 You know, I want to know this for a fact.

01:07:34.000 To me, based on what I've seen, you know, unless something seriously changes in the next couple of days, I certainly, in my mind, would have enough to go probable cause that this was it.

01:07:45.000 And then you have all the extenuating circumstances that we've talked about, whether it's the lover, the text messages, the parents turning them in, the Discord chats.

01:07:53.000 Um, you know, it just seems to get me to the point where, like, this is literally almost without fail the most plausible uh, you know, scenario.

01:08:04.000 Um, and so, you know, again, I know that pisses off a lot of people.

01:08:07.000 I've loved you forever, and the fact that you didn't jump onto that, you know, it was aliens from you know another planet that did this.

01:08:13.000 You know, I'm sorry to disappoint you guys, but like, I, you know, I owe it to my friend to be honest, and you know, I would never lie about it for any reason or change my opinion or otherwise for that.

01:08:24.000 I think we all owe it to Charlie and to his legacy.

01:08:27.000 To get justice for him.

01:08:31.000 Yeah, and there's no question.

01:08:33.000 And beyond that, it's like I'm not trying to win a debate online right now.

01:08:39.000 It's, I just want justice for Charlie.

01:08:41.000 So, you know, people, you know, can say whatever they want to say, and that's fine.

01:08:45.000 And you should.

01:08:46.000 And I'm not discounting anything anyone says, but I am also going to look at the evidence and I'm going to say, well, this is what the evidence.

01:08:53.000 And I, by the way, I remember when people said that about Derek Chauvin, too, for years.

01:08:57.000 People told me Derek Chauvin is a murderer. 0.64

01:08:59.000 Derek Chauvin is this terrible guy.

01:09:03.000 And then when I looked at the case and I said, Well, wait a minute.

01:09:06.000 I just don't think this evidence matches up with what they're saying.

01:09:08.000 Now, the jury did what they did there.

01:09:10.000 And I think that was incredibly politicized.

01:09:12.000 But again, that was something where it was very unpopular for me to say that from the very start that I didn't think that what Derek Chauvin did was murder.

01:09:23.000 And people on both sides of the aisle really came after me.

01:09:25.000 And now here we are a couple of years later.

01:09:27.000 Emotions have died down and people are starting to look at that saying, you know, yeah, that may have actually been political.

01:09:32.000 So, I mean, I just think it's just.

01:09:33.000 Well, and by the way, you mentioned earlier, Conrad just doesn't follow the evidence.

01:09:36.000 Kyle Rittenhouse, the same thing.

01:09:38.000 I mean, it was done.

01:09:41.000 It was this.

01:09:41.000 It was actually Bill Ackman, who was certainly a very big leftist at the time, who put out this really, he's sort of known for putting out these long and detailed tweets.

01:09:52.000 And he put out this tweet being like, wait a minute, I've been watching the trial, actually watching, and the evidence presented against Kyle Rittenhouse.

01:09:58.000 And I thought he was a white supremacist, but he killed a white pedophile and another guy that was attacking him with a skateboard. 0.76

01:10:05.000 And he goes, and this is a big business guy, he's a big hedge fund guy. 0.96

01:10:09.000 He's there.

01:10:10.000 And he goes, It's sort of interesting.

01:10:11.000 So, I'm watching the trial with my wife, and we're saying, wait a minute, this is so different than everything we thought we knew about the case.

01:10:16.000 And he goes, it reminds me sort of like when I read the Wall Street Journal about some deal, and I'm on the deal.

01:10:22.000 Like, I'm on one side of the transaction, or I know the guys that are.

01:10:25.000 I remember this.

01:10:26.000 And I read the article, I go, this is BS.

01:10:29.000 Like, this is nonsense.

01:10:29.000 Like, I was in the room, I know exactly what.

01:10:32.000 But then I turn the page to something where I'm not a subject matter expert on, and I read it like it's the gospel.

01:10:39.000 And it's not.

01:10:39.000 And I think it's one of these things where, you know, I'm not saying he's changed his political beliefs.

01:10:43.000 He was a huge Democrat funder, but it was the first time you saw someone from that side come out and be like, oh, you mean because I read it in the press doesn't mean it's true?

01:10:50.000 So, you know, actually seeing the evidence, you know, is so critical.

01:10:55.000 So, for, you know, the people, you know, who get it, great.

01:10:59.000 For the people who are hating on it, you know, I understand.

01:11:01.000 And, you know, trust me, I've been 95% on the conspiracy side of most of these things.

01:11:07.000 But, you know, the people, I mean, there's people out there saying, you were complicit.

01:11:11.000 I was in France, like, when it happened.

01:11:13.000 I got the call.

01:11:14.000 It was like, Midnight, when I like, I'm like, you know, somehow I'm complicit and Erica's, and everyone's complicit.

01:11:20.000 I mean, it's sort of sad and disgusting how far some of that's gone.

01:11:24.000 And again, I can understand people being skeptical and wanting to get to the bottom of it, but, you know, some of what I've seen out there is pretty outlandish.

01:11:32.000 And again, that's coming from me, who has a, you know, I think a pretty solid bona fides in terms of going all in for conspiracy theories that I truly believe were conspiracy theories that turned out to be right.

01:11:44.000 Now, maybe I'll be proven wrong.

01:11:46.000 This one does not seem like it's going to be one of those to me. 1.00

01:11:51.000 Yeah, I mean, sometimes the trans community just kills people. 1.00

01:11:57.000 I mean, that's something that we've seen quite often, actually. 1.00

01:12:00.000 Quite a few times, certainly on college campuses, too often, obviously.

01:12:05.000 And school campuses, college campuses, that is a place where they are known to commit violence.

01:12:10.000 So, I mean, it's not like this isn't something that we've seen play out a number of times in the past.

01:12:18.000 It's just that we haven't seen it on such a high profile level.

01:12:23.000 If the facts go where they go, then we owe it to Charlie to follow them there.

01:12:27.000 I agree 100%.

01:12:29.000 So, you know, Jack, I know you're going to be there for the rest of the week.

01:12:31.000 Can you tell people how you're covering the rest of this hearing, where they can follow your reporting as the trial moves forward so they can, you know, again, not hear the spin from other people, but hear like literally what's being presented, you know, day in and day out?

01:12:49.000 Well, thank you so much.

01:12:50.000 And that's right.

01:12:52.000 We're going to be here all the rest of this week.

01:12:54.000 I'm at Human Events Daily on Real America's Voice.

01:12:58.000 You can watch on Rumble.

01:13:00.000 We're going to be doing so sort of like a late night wrap up stream, which I actually am starting in like 10 minutes here.

01:13:05.000 So, uh, I am not leaving.

01:13:06.000 I think I'm going to start over there, actually.

01:13:08.000 We have like a two studio thing.

01:13:10.000 And, you know, we're doing that every night.

01:13:12.000 I am doing intermittently when I can some hits from the courthouse as well.

01:13:18.000 Or, you know, like we'll go outside.

01:13:20.000 We have a camera set up there.

01:13:21.000 So I'll be doing those throughout the day when I can.

01:13:24.000 And, you know, I just hope that people just watch the hearings.

01:13:27.000 That's all I would ask.

01:13:29.000 I would say to people, look, if you have questions, if you're skeptical, I get it totally.

01:13:33.000 Just watch the hearings.

01:13:34.000 That's why we fought so hard to get them televised.

01:13:37.000 I agree, John.

01:13:37.000 By the way, one more point I think, you know, I asked you about what was most shocking to you.

01:13:40.000 I think one of the things that was perhaps most shocking to me in all of this was finding out that for a turning point event, thousands of people in attendance, that there were only six police officers on duty at the university for, you know, what would probably be a really big event for, you know, Utah Valley University.

01:14:00.000 That, I mean, that to me is, you know, one of the craziest things I've heard in all of this.

01:14:04.000 I mean, six events, no prior briefing, no real plan.

01:14:11.000 That to me was the scariest thing I've seen all week, actually.

01:14:16.000 Yeah.

01:14:17.000 You know, I remember when we got, I first got that information, you know, a couple days afterwards.

01:14:22.000 And I just, I, you know, it's, it's one of those things that it's, it's, I'm never going to not, I'm never going to stop being angry about that.

01:14:31.000 I'm just, I'm never going to stop being angry about that.

01:14:34.000 Yeah.

01:14:34.000 No, I agree.

01:14:35.000 And, you know, as someone who's done a lot of these events with Charlie and I was supposed to do one, you know, two or three weeks after, after this event, it's like, wow, it's, it, it, It made it all the, you know, so much more real.

01:14:46.000 And yeah, now I still can't believe it.

01:14:49.000 But Jack, thanks for everything you're doing, man.

01:14:51.000 Really appreciate it.

01:14:52.000 You know, like me, I'm sure we'll take a lot of heat for just laying out what we saw with our own eyes.

01:14:58.000 But I think that needs to be done.

01:14:59.000 And I really appreciate it as always, buddy.

01:15:03.000 Right.

01:15:03.000 And God bless to you and to Bettina for making the time to come out.

01:15:06.000 I know it's not easy and certainly not fun sitting there in the courtroom, but I think it was really, really important for not just the family, but for the whole country to be able to see you guys there.

01:15:16.000 Well, thanks again, man.

01:15:17.000 Really appreciate it.

01:15:18.000 Thanks for all the reporting.

01:15:19.000 Thanks for being there for Charlie.

01:15:21.000 And guys, before we go, Erica, Kathy, Rob, they're in that front row every single day.

01:15:27.000 They're facing this with incredible grace that honestly humbles me that they're able to keep their composure as well as they have.

01:15:38.000 Keep them in your prayers this week and until we get resolution to this heinous crime.

01:15:46.000 We're going to stay on the case.

01:15:49.000 You know, every step of the way through the hearing, through the trial.

01:15:53.000 Charlie deserves that.

01:15:54.000 His family deserves that.

01:15:55.000 And justice is coming.

01:15:58.000 So, guys, thanks so much for tuning in.

01:16:00.000 Sorry about the scheduling stuff, but I, you know, I thought it was more important for me just to be there to support my friend, his memory, you know, his wife and family.

01:16:10.000 So, I couldn't do the show on Monday.

01:16:11.000 I was still in the courtroom when I'd normally be going live.

01:16:14.000 But, you know, remember to like, share, to subscribe, get this out there so people actually see what's going on.

01:16:19.000 We really appreciate that.

01:16:21.000 Check out our sponsors down below in the video description.

01:16:24.000 You can go to donjuniorgold.com to learn more.

01:16:27.000 And, guys, with that, I just want to say thank you.

01:16:31.000 And I guess I'll talk to you all again very soon, probably tomorrow, actually, because we'd normally be live on Thursday.

01:16:36.000 So, again, apologize for the break in the schedule, but get it out there.

01:16:40.000 We really appreciate it.

01:16:41.000 Have a good one.

Triggered - Donald Trump Jr - July 08, 2026

Justice for Charlie: Taking you Inside the Courtroom | Triggered Ep.356

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