Alex Sawyer, reporter for the Washington Times and author of the new book, Lawless Lawfare, joins me to talk about his new book and why he believes that impeachment and removal from office are the new normal in American politics.
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00:09:08.000Guys, joining me now, reporter from the Washington Times and author of the new book, Lawless Lawfare, Alex Sawyer.
00:09:58.000And every time there was like a new lawsuit announced against your father or one of his allies, our Trump supporters, we would all just kind of get in our chat and talk about it, share the complaint and just really think like, this is just so far fetched.
00:10:12.000These cases, the charges, we were extremely troubled by what we were seeing happening to the courts.
00:10:17.000And I thought that that needed to be laid out for the American public.
00:10:20.000Really, I make the argument that the lawfare started with Russia, the special counsel investigation, then they kind of snowballed into impeachment.
00:10:30.000And then from impeachment, we got to indictments.
00:10:33.000And I think it's just very concerning that unfortunately, I worry that that the lawfare might be the new Democrats norm.
00:10:41.000Yeah, it certainly seems like that's the case.
00:10:43.000I mean, the full title of the book is Lawless Lawfare, Tipping the Scales of Justice to Get Trump and Destroy MAGA.
00:10:50.000But in the end, lawfare backfired big time and actually made MAGA stronger.
00:10:56.000I mean, I think to your point, right, it wasn't just you guys having that conversation that this seems insane.
00:11:02.000It doesn't really check out with anything I've ever actually seen.
00:11:15.000And he was like, they were just so lost.
00:11:18.000And I think it actually motivated voters to come support Trump even more because they saw what was happening with the judicial system.
00:11:25.000And they're like, this is so un-American.
00:11:26.000For example, the hush money trial up in New York, they were like, don't celebrities just pay hush money?
00:11:32.000Like, isn't that like what part of like, how is that a crime?
00:11:35.000And then, you know, everything going on with the special counsel investigation with Jack Smith, the classified documents case specifically, they were like, well, we see this happening with like Joe Biden, with Hillary Clinton and her use of the private email server.
00:11:49.000So like, why is it that Donald Trump is the one that's being indicted and, you know, having to go in and out of courtrooms while he's trying to campaign?
00:12:16.000I think Laura Trump actually in the book called it Elvis Presley level, which I think that's like totally accurate.
00:12:22.000The other image I think that embodies the 2024 election was your father, like after being shot coming up with his fist in the air.
00:12:29.000I mean, you know, those are the two images people
00:12:32.000think of that's interesting in the sense that that that sort of happened really for the same thing right the lawfare uh so much of it was a disinformation campaign right they created this hysteria trump is literally the greatest threat to democracy ever or the rule of law now is what we're hearing the rule of law democracy you know you know any kind of societal norms i mean you know and when you say that loud enough and you say that often enough you know the derange crazy is like oh my God, there must be some truth to this.
00:13:01.000I mean, like everything else, that didn't matter, but it, uh, no question that sort of motivated someone to do literally tried to assassinate him, not once, but twice.
00:13:10.000And like to your point, on if you say something enough and over and over again, I think of Adam Schiff.
00:13:15.000I covered Capitol Hill for 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020.
00:13:20.000And I just remember having to go outside of closed door meetings where he was promising he comes out and he's like, oh yeah, there's evidence of Russia collusion.
00:13:51.000And like now, finally, you know, with DNI Gabbert coming out with what she did this week, I think that's fantastic that they're getting to the bottom of that.
00:13:58.000This was a created narrative by President Obama and his high-level intel chiefs.
00:14:04.000And unfortunately, you know, it cost the American taxpayer, what, like $40 million of a special counsel probe that was really a waste of time and money.
00:14:14.000Well, to me, it was really what they prevented them from being able to do.
00:14:17.000I mean, obviously they had a lot of effective wins in the first term.
00:14:19.000I think we'll have a lot more this time because they understand the system better.
00:14:22.000But so much of that time, you know, energy, the brain suck, the, you know, I think that costs the American people probably a lot more.
00:14:31.000It's just sort of hard to enumerate it.
00:14:54.000I talked to General Michael Flynn, and he was one of the biggest casualties of that whole Russia narrative.
00:14:59.000He, you know, with his phone, obviously we're finding out now, like, was there even a reason?
00:15:04.000There was no reason for the sanctions.
00:15:05.000And that's what led to the phone call that then like, you know, poured fuel on this fire, this Russia fire.
00:15:10.000And he says, you know, somebody like him with his military background, they're usually retired.
00:15:16.000They're sitting on a board, making millions.
00:15:17.000He's like, I'm having to scratch out a living basically because of the defamation that happened to him and the way that he just became kind of like the image and the face of the Russia investigation when it first started under Mueller.
00:15:45.000It was, yeah, no, the debanking, the deinsurance, the, the, the, everything, it was, uh, it was rough.
00:15:51.000But I guess, you know, when I look back, it's sort of, you needed almost those four years, though, for us, created a whole new level of fighter, created, you know, just people that, hey, you know, I'd say there were, you know, two day ones, right?
00:16:03.000Where were you in 16 and then where were you on January 7th?
00:16:06.000And so, you know, now for the first time, we actually have sort of like a MAGA bench that we didn't have.
00:16:11.000And it's like, I'm not so concerned or not as concerned, because they will try to watch sort of the today's Republican Party, which is really an America first MAGA party, you know, revert back to that old school neocon kind of way.
00:16:25.000So, you know, I think that was really important.
00:16:26.000You actually needed all of that stuff to happen to really codify and solidify, you know, so much of what our party now stands for.
00:16:54.000You know, as a lawyer, I hate that I can like look at a case and see that it has political leanings, go and see which judge is appointed to the case right after the complaint is filed and have an idea of like how the outcomes are going to go.
00:17:08.000What's the judge going to do based on who appointed that judge?
00:17:13.000That's not, you know, lady justice is supposed to be blind.
00:17:15.000And that's one of the things that really, really bothered me with how your father was treated as a defendant.
00:17:20.000If anyone in America should be able to speak freely, it should be a defendant, no matter the last name, and facing, you know, the potential of having to go behind bars.
00:17:32.000And I did some math after like the four indictments came down.
00:17:36.000I think your father had to do at least like 90 campaign rallies while under criminal court gag orders.
00:17:42.000And that, that really does not sit there well with me.
00:17:45.000Anyone who treasures the First Amendment, anyone who treasures the fact that we have political speech in our country and the idea of free, you know, the freedom to debate should be extremely disheartened by that.
00:17:56.000That precedent should have never been, you know, set.
00:18:09.000I think there was one New York blogger I found that actually filed a lawsuit to try to get the gag order lifted on your father in New York.
00:18:17.000And it's just, it was incredibly unfortunate.
00:18:20.000So was there anything interesting that you found when you were researching the book that may not have been common knowledge on just how far the Democrat Party was willing to go to destroy my father and the country and the movement?
00:18:33.000Yeah, I mean, so I kind of start with the cost of law there and then Russia.
00:18:36.000I go through each of the impeachments.
00:18:37.000I go through, I mean, there's so many lawsuits.
00:18:39.000I forget about the whole battle trying to get his name off the ballot.
00:18:43.000I mean, it's like people are like, oh, yeah, I forgot about that one.
00:18:45.000I was like, yeah, I was in the Supreme Court for that too.
00:18:48.000One of the things I think is super interesting now that Russia is back in the news this week was I have a career, an Intel career.
00:19:05.000But no, no matter what meeting I started going into in 2015, 2016, all of a sudden, Russia was the topic.
00:19:14.000And he said, we kind of, some of us like looked at each other like, this is literally out of nowhere.
00:19:19.000So it wasn't like, you know, it's just kind of now that some of the stuff that Tulsi Gabbard's releasing, it's like, this is exactly what I have in the book, what he told me.
00:19:31.000One of the other things I did some research on, and I think is a really good place for people to go look, is the Media Research Center followed some of the coverage of the law fair and the cases against your father.
00:19:43.000And it's just so, you know, we all know the legacy media, like it just, it's pretty much dead.
00:19:49.000But it's just when you look at what they did, it's wild.
00:19:53.000So one of the reports, one of my favorite things to share that's in the book is the coverage of the Fonnie Willis case down in Georgia.
00:20:01.000ABC and CBS did 99 stories in April of 2024 on that case.
00:20:07.000Never once mentioned that Fonnie Willis, the district attorney, was a Democrat, prosecuting, of course, the leading Republican presidential candidate.
00:20:15.000No one even decided like, oh, we should probably mention she's a Democrat.
00:20:21.000So like, you would think that's also an important aspect of a story.
00:20:25.000So just complete journalistic malpractice.
00:20:28.000But, you know, I think that sometimes that you asked about Democrats, that goes hand in hand with the media.
00:20:33.000Well, you have that obviously in New York with all the people doing it.
00:20:36.000And then you have the judges that were all hand-selected.
00:20:38.000And it was always interesting that in New York, it was, you know, the same judge got us, got Steve Bannon, got, yeah, like, I'm like, how is it?
00:20:46.000And yet, like, literally every time, everyone that Muzmaga end up with the same scumbag.
00:20:52.000Like, it, yeah, I guess it shouldn't shock us, but it was happening.
00:20:56.000I mean, I guess it's also interesting that really the same cast of villains who launched all of the law fare are some of the ones that are really implicated in a lot of these scandals, like Russia Gate and many others.
00:21:08.000And you see the stuff going on with shift these days I keep reading about.
00:21:11.000I mean, shift, homie, Letitia James, of course, right?
00:21:17.000That's the mortgage fraud fun, you know.
00:21:21.000But I think it's all going to come out.
00:21:23.000And that's one of the things I ask about is like, what can be done to stop this?
00:21:27.000And some people say they want public hearings.
00:21:29.000They want it to be all out in the open, true transparency for the American people.
00:21:33.000Others say that they want to see indictments.
00:21:35.000And it looks like that could potentially happen with what we had released this week in terms of Clapper, Comey, and so forth.
00:21:43.000One of the interesting suggestions I had, I spoke to Governor Rod Logojevich for the book, and he said he was hoping maybe President Trump would have a commission that he could make bipartisan appointments to that could study this and look at ways to solve our courts from being abused and basically politics taking over the courtroom so this doesn't happen again in the future to somebody.
00:22:04.000Jim Jordan also spoke to me, leading the Judiciary Committee in the House.
00:22:08.000He had a couple interesting suggestions.
00:22:10.000So one, he said that there was legislation they were looking at about if someone like your father or politician were to be indicted in state court, them having that ability to transfer it to federal court where there's a little bit more of, you know, a fair chance.
00:22:26.000You get out of those deep blue states or even vice versa if it was to happen to Democrats deep red.
00:22:32.000You could go to a more fair territory.
00:22:33.000Like I always think about your, the hush money trial.
00:22:36.000If that happened right outside of Manhattan in Purple County, you would have had a different result or a different judge would have helped too.
00:22:58.000I mean, as a reporter, we've been talking sort of with the lawyer hat on, but as a reporter, what have you taken away from the events that you've covered over the last decade now and beyond?
00:23:10.000And is that even reversible at this point?
00:23:13.000So, I mean, the media is such an interesting industry to be in because I think I'm in it as its kind of implosion is happening, right?
00:23:22.000Like there's just a change in how people get their news.
00:23:25.000And I think it's for the better going to social media for truth rather than necessarily like only having a certain amount of networks that they can zone into and kind of being fed a certain narrative.
00:23:37.000From the book, I actually share an interesting story.
00:23:41.000I was in Judge Chutkin's courtroom and it was right after the superseding indictment came down.
00:23:47.000So your father had won the Supreme Court case on presidential immunity.
00:23:51.000Also, there was an obstruction charge that had been kind of kicked off by the Supreme Court with the January 6th defendant that could impact Jack Smith's indictment.
00:24:00.000And so I was like looking and like, wow, he like really didn't, you know, reshape this indictment like after you just kind of suffer some losses at the Supreme Court like you might want to.
00:24:08.000And I had a little conversation with the reporter next to me who was an NBC reporter.
00:24:12.000And I was like, yeah, I just think that's like a huge mistake, you know, strategically as a lawyer.
00:24:17.000And he's like, oh no, like that ruling was just so narrow and went on and on.
00:24:22.000And I'm like, what are you talking about?
00:24:25.000Like this is literally like the Supreme Court telling the prosecution that like you can't, this, you don't have enough evidence to bring this type of charge against, you know, not only your father, but all the other January 6th, 300 or so defendants they were trying to bring that one charge against.
00:24:51.000And it was in that same hearing, actually, it was September, when the next step, typically in the process, is for a defendant to have a chance to file a motion to dismiss.
00:25:02.000And so, of course, we're like two months ahead of the election, a little under, I think.
00:25:07.000And that would have been time, you know, like a couple weeks here for this party to file, a couple weeks.
00:25:12.000And Judge Chucken was like, you know, Owen Obama pointy.
00:25:16.000Yes, I recognize that usually the next course of action would be for the defendants' lawyers to be able to file their say, but we're not going to do it like that.
00:25:25.000And so that's when she went ahead and basically gave the green light to Jack Smith's team to file his oversize motion, which I'm sure you guys recall dropped like October, sometime in October, right?
00:26:41.000The other part that I think is just extremely terrifying is that because the Democratic Party is in such disarray and don't really have a strategy or a leader, you have Mandani in New York City coming to Washington, D.C. and having breakfast with some of like, you know, your most top Democrats and like recruiting them, trying to get them to support him.
00:27:06.000And he literally wants to take away private housing.
00:27:09.000I mean, like, I don't know very many Americans that would say there's any common sense to that.
00:27:20.000Yeah, as someone who has a mother that escaped communism and spent some of my childhood summers in a communist nation, I can assure you it's not going to be good.
00:28:45.000But I think that, you know, there's something to be said about looking at kind of how all of this came to be, and especially the use of the auto pin with the whole memory issue and like where do we draw the line there?
00:28:55.000Because there's some people I'm sure that received pardons that should be held to account for what happened.
00:28:59.000Yeah, like I can't imagine that even a Joe Biden, when he was in his right mind, pardoning some of the rapists and the murders.
00:29:05.000I'm like, I just don't like, who's pardoning those people?
00:29:08.000Like, it would just seemingly be political suicide unless you're just, you know, like a radical Democrat activist and it's like, okay, then maybe it makes sense.
00:29:15.000And the other thing I think, too, is like, you know, people are like, should we live in the past and keep investigating the past?
00:29:22.000Or should we do we move forward and just forget?
00:29:26.000They want to know what happened because they don't want it to happen again.
00:29:30.000And people think, oh, like the welfare impacted President Trump, some of his top-level allies, but it touched everyday supporters.
00:29:38.000I talked to a couple in Texas in the book.
00:29:40.000They counter-protested Biden's campaign bus, and they ended up having big law and Democrats come after them under the Ku Klux Klan Act, saying that they violated the right to vote.
00:29:52.000They had to, obviously the First Amendment was their defense, but they won.
00:29:57.000It's still that they chose to Austin, Texas, right?
00:30:00.000Like the most liberal area you can bring the case.
00:30:03.000But the point is, is it cost this like little couple, you know, in Texas like $300 plus thousand dollars to be able to defend their right to counter protest Biden's campaign bus, like public streets, right?
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00:32:12.000I mean, can you give the audience just a quick refresher on how the Biden DOJ targeted you and then some of the big news you got a few weeks ago?
00:33:08.000One of the first sort of minor victories we won was when I won appeal bond.
00:33:16.000So the judge wanted me to report to prison, and we had to appeal just to get a bond to stay out of prison for the duration of the appeal.
00:33:25.000We got the great news roughly two weeks ago that the court came down with a unanimous decision on appeal of a 3-0 judgment of acquittal.
00:33:35.000They didn't just order the case dismissed or remanded for a new trial.
00:33:40.000They actually ordered the judge to enter a judgment of acquittal saying that there was no evidence, there was insufficient evidence that I was part of any grand conspiracy to steal anybody's vote.
00:33:52.000And if I remember correctly, I mean, there were left-wing Twitter accounts at the time doing the same thing to Trump voters, like almost verbatim.
00:34:00.000Like literally, they took your meme and like made it about Trump and like all nothing ever happened to those guys, right?
00:34:06.000It wasn't like this was a general crackdown.
00:35:03.000You know, what's the next chapter in this story for you guys?
00:35:06.000Yeah, look, so it's all about getting justice for Doug.
00:35:08.000And I mean, just to lay out how starkly the timeline of his case is, it really, I mean, I don't need to tell you about Lawfare, obviously, and what you guys have had to go through.
00:35:16.000But I mean, we're talking about memes before the election.
00:35:19.000They charged Doug with the crime two days after Biden was inaugurated.
00:35:23.000I mean, it was literally like they were waiting until the Biden DOJ came in to bring this thing.
00:35:27.000So now we have to get justice for Doug.
00:35:29.000Oh, and one other detail that I think you'll like.
00:35:32.000Two of the main lawyers that did Doug's appeal, that won the case for him in the Second Circuit, now work for your father at the Justice Department.
00:35:38.000So Yakov Roth and Harry Graver are both politicals in the current Justice Department.
00:35:42.000So we've actually brought the good guys inside the house again as we try to restore order with A.G. Bondi.
00:35:48.000There's a law called the Federal Tort Claims Act that says you can sue the government when they do bad things to you.
00:35:53.000That includes what the government did to Doug here.
00:35:55.000As soon as the acquittal is final after July 30th, we're going to file a claim with the Justice Department for a considerable amount of money to get Doug paid back for his legal fees and try to do whatever you can with money to make the man's life right again.
00:36:06.000I mean, these guys destroyed his life for four and a half years, and that's going to require, I think, you know, that you really can never make somebody whole for something like that, but we're going to do the most we possibly can.
00:36:15.000The second half of justice for Doug is holding accountable the people that did this to him.
00:36:19.000So the first way to hold them accountable is make sure Doug's compensated.
00:36:22.000The second way to hold him accountable is make sure that the people, the individuals, are held accountable.
00:36:26.000And so we're looking at everything we can do.
00:36:28.000We're looking at suing the prosecutors and the agents individually.
00:36:31.000We're looking at misconduct complaints.
00:36:33.000And we're also going to be engaging with A.G. Bondi's team and the rest of the DOJ folks on different things we can do to make sure that these folks that did this to Doug are never able to do this to anybody again and that people like them don't get ideas down the road if God forbid we ever don't control the Justice Department again.
00:36:49.000Yeah, I mean, you know, when I'm listening, Hillary Clinton claiming that a guy posting a meme on Twitter in 16, like it was voter suppression.
00:36:59.000Just like they claimed the Russians were hacking the election and Trump was working as an agent and all of this nonsense.
00:37:07.000You know, Doug, when you look back at comments like that, how do you respond now?
00:37:13.000I mean, especially, by the way, in lieu of what we found out, you know, over the last week about just how much they were actually conspiring to steal elections, just how much they were actively colluding to subvert the duly elected president of the United States.
00:37:29.000This just became, like you said, much more relevant.
00:37:32.000Like you said, Hillary Clinton went on stage at some shindig that globalists go to and said that, oh, by the way, this guy was just convicted and he tried to steal the election.
00:37:52.000This is part of the Russia conspiracy.
00:37:54.000And we now know that one of the poor guy that they squeezed, the cooperating witness who was pled guilty to this crime that wasn't even a crime, they were interviewing him saying, are you loyal to the United States?
00:38:31.000It never really made a lot of sense to us.
00:38:33.000I think everyone, certainly who are sort of as sort of vocal as we were during that time and since, always knew it was BS, right?
00:38:41.000Just like, of course, COVID came from the lab in Wuhan that studied the exact virus in question at ground zero of the outbreak of the virus.
00:38:49.000If you said that, even if it was the most obvious, even if it was obviously the most plausible solution, you were still canceled and crushed.
00:38:57.000I don't know which would be worse that they actually believe this or if they were just cynically using it.
00:39:04.000Yeah, I'd almost be like, How did we have people that stupid if they actually believed it?
00:39:07.000I mean, you know, at least the other way, you can be like, Okay, you know, sometimes, you know, I wish we played the game the way that they do because that would stop this nonsense.
00:39:14.000But as long as they're going that hard and we're not, they're going to keep doing it.
00:39:20.000We need to push back here and not just let this, you know, bygones be bygones here.
00:39:25.000And, you know, just on this witness that Doug was talking about, this guy microchip, I mean, one of the things that the Biden Justice Department did that the left is very good at is what I call law enforcement theater.
00:41:08.000And look, in terms of accountability, we need to follow the facts where they lead.
00:41:11.000There's a lot about this case we don't know.
00:41:12.000When you're a criminal defendant, you have very few tools to figure out what's going on on the government side.
00:41:18.000I mean, as you know, as you guys have seen, because you had to deal with all this nonsense.
00:41:21.000And so one of the things we're going to be doing is engaging with the Attorney General and Dag Blanche and soon-to-be associate AG Stanley Woodward and Ed Martin and all the other folks at DOJ to make sure that we actually figure out what happened here.
00:42:44.000I had to jump on an airplane to go up and be sentenced in Brooklyn, New York.
00:42:50.000As soon as I touched down on the ground, my wife called me and said, the doctor said we have to do an emergency C-section tonight at 8 p.m.
00:42:58.000And obviously there was nothing I could do except go to the sentencing the next day and fly back the next day.
00:43:51.000And four and a half years of my life on pretrial supervision.
00:43:55.000And they wanted two more years of probation after seven months of imprisonment.
00:43:59.000So this, it just, it's, it, it's hard to even explain how this drags on and on and on.
00:44:06.000And can I just underscore the fact that they arrested him is totally crazy.
00:44:11.000Even if you take the rest of this at face value, which obviously you shouldn't, this is a nonviolent offender who obviously would self-report.
00:44:18.000It's an awful lot like executing a forcible search warrant at the former president's residence in Florida.
00:44:23.000It's just classic, heavy-handed Gestapo tactics to intimidate people and scare them.
00:44:28.000Yeah, when they showed up at Mar-a-Lago with the FBI's hostage rescue team, when they've been cooperating with the legal counsel and the others, back and forth for months, if not years, that's there to deliver a message.
00:44:41.000I mean, how did they single you out, Doug?
00:44:44.000I mean, you weren't the only person posting memes in 2016.
00:44:47.000I mean, there's probably a lot more meme warriors these days than then.
00:44:51.000You were on the leading edge, but why'd they pick you?
00:44:54.000Well, this is once again pure animus, I believe, against MAGA because they said this guy had the biggest account.
00:45:13.000So what they told Reuters was that we were going to bring a case against this one guy because he had the loudest voice.
00:45:19.000And we could say maybe his memes actually impacted the election, which, by the way, is crazy if they actually believe that.
00:45:26.000But not only that, they thought that if they came and arrested me, that somehow I was going to, you know, they were going to, this would lead to some trail of some foreign conspiracy or something.
00:45:37.000And they actually thought that they were going to be able to start rolling up other people.
00:45:42.000Little did they know that, you know, I didn't cooperate with them at all.
00:45:47.000And even when they squeezed this other guy, they weren't able to find anything there other than sort of a poor sap who didn't have the fortitude to stand up against the federal government.
00:45:56.000There was no trail to Russia or some great conspiracy.
00:46:00.000The fact is, as we all know, it's simply that Hillary Clinton lost the election and these memes.
00:46:06.000I mean, the only way that we actually influenced the election was mostly just using her own words against her.
00:46:12.000So and the idea, we just amplified what Donald, what your, what your father was saying, what President Trump was saying on the campaign trail.
00:46:18.000There was nothing nefarious about any of this.
00:46:20.000James, you know, from a legal procedure perspective, what's the process from here?
00:46:25.000You know, what else do we need to know?
00:46:26.000What do we have to keep an eye out to make sure that justice is done here?
00:46:30.000Yeah, so I have total confidence in the DOJ team that will receive our requests.
00:46:34.000The first step is an administrative process at DOJ.
00:46:37.000So we're going to file a claim on Doug's behalf.
00:46:39.000As soon as the acquittal is final, the district court should enter the final acquittal at the end of July, beginning of August.
00:46:45.000And then we'll go to DOJ and we'll submit a claim on his behalf.
00:46:47.000And hopefully we'll be able to work it out with them in relatively short order.
00:46:51.000They've been such warriors for the president and everything else.
00:46:53.000I am totally confident that they're going to be great here.