TRIGGERnometry - A Revolution is Coming!

00:00:00.000 I think we're at the start of a revolution.

00:00:04.260 It's going to be a cherry episode, everybody.

00:00:06.580 Well, there are bloodless revolutions and there are revolutions.

00:00:10.220 How many bloodless revolutions can you name, Jimmy?

00:00:13.120 Look.

00:00:15.240 It's all, what if, like, if we were going to define a revolution, right?

00:00:18.320 It's a replacement of the elites.

00:00:20.440 The biggest drug in America is not fentanyl.

00:00:24.660 It's not opium.

00:00:25.760 The biggest drug is attention.

00:00:27.060 You can be fantastically talented at something, famous for that.

00:00:32.180 You could be infamous or you could be a victim.

00:00:35.300 And I see a lot of the, you know, the terrible problems that young people are facing.

00:00:39.900 If you have a mental health problem, it tends to come from it's you're alone too much.

00:00:44.440 I'll talk about tax.

00:00:45.360 I don't know a thing I'll talk about tax.

00:00:47.480 What if you just said, under 30, no tax.

00:00:51.380 People are worried about the wrong thing with AI.

00:00:53.960 People are worried about losing their job.

00:00:55.080 But I think you're worried about the wrong thing.

00:00:57.060 And there's two other things you could really worry about.

00:01:02.180 Relax, relax.

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00:02:10.020 Jimmy Carr, welcome back to Trigonometry.

00:02:12.040 Thank you very much indeed for having me.

00:02:13.900 You're back from your big American voyage.

00:02:15.980 As are you.

00:02:16.740 Yeah, well, congratulations.

00:02:18.840 Amazing.

00:02:19.920 Amazing interviews, I thought, when you were out there.

00:02:22.080 And most of them aren't even out yet, so.

00:02:24.140 Well, I mean, even the early ones,

00:02:25.720 like the Dave Smith one,

00:02:27.480 I thought was a, I don't know,

00:02:30.720 like, I think you could learn a lot from that,

00:02:34.200 from the, not only the content,

00:02:36.960 but how it was played.

00:02:38.700 It was a wonderful conversation

00:02:39.940 between people that don't agree about a lot of things,

00:02:42.460 but it wasn't debate.

00:02:44.200 I think there's a lot of conflation of the term

00:02:46.200 debate and deliberation.

00:02:48.000 And debate is about owning someone else,

00:02:50.280 and it's about winning,

00:02:51.460 and deliberation is about getting somewhere.

00:02:54.200 And I think, like,

00:02:54.980 I'm very, you know, positive about the world.

00:02:57.620 I think sort of 90% of people agree about 90% of things.

00:03:00.560 And then you have sort of 5% on the extreme right and left

00:03:04.520 that think the other one is the problem.

00:03:06.940 And then you get people that come together

00:03:08.520 and want to have a conversation,

00:03:09.560 want to kind of get somewhere and build something.

00:03:11.640 And it felt really positive.

00:03:14.520 I just, I loved it.

00:03:15.380 Well, we felt the same.

00:03:16.380 And two things,

00:03:17.200 two things I would say there is,

00:03:18.580 one of them is a lot of credit for that goes to Dave.

00:03:21.260 Yeah, of course.

00:03:21.560 Because you can only dance like that

00:03:23.320 with a dance partner who wants to dance like that.

00:03:25.720 Yeah, sure.

00:03:26.760 But the second thing as well is,

00:03:28.360 someone came up to us the other day,

00:03:29.680 and they said,

00:03:30.920 you know what I love about you guys

00:03:32.040 is what you do is you do sense-making.

00:03:34.360 And I was like,

00:03:35.180 it's kind of a wanky term,

00:03:36.380 what does that mean?

00:03:37.220 And I said to them,

00:03:38.180 what is the difference between sense-making

00:03:40.020 and expressing an opinion?

00:03:42.040 And what we came out of is,

00:03:44.460 sense-making is when you actually explain

00:03:46.480 how you got to your opinion.

00:03:48.280 You explain the sequence

00:03:49.480 by which you got to the views that you have.

00:03:51.820 And then when you have someone like David comes along,

00:03:54.580 and there's two different opinions,

00:03:56.600 they then both get tested and challenged

00:03:58.840 and prodded in different ways.

00:04:00.380 And then you can make sense of the issue

00:04:02.380 by having listened to the different arguments.

00:04:04.240 Yeah.

00:04:04.620 I think it's the analogy of the,

00:04:06.440 the Overton window gets talked about a lot in politics.

00:04:09.120 And the idea of what's the most left-wing

00:04:10.740 and what's the most right-wing thing

00:04:12.040 you can say in polite society.

00:04:13.700 And I think it's expanded in sort of both directions

00:04:17.640 politically the last 10 years.

00:04:20.360 It's, it's gone to the right

00:04:21.400 and it's gone to the left.

00:04:22.660 You could now be,

00:04:24.240 there's neo-fascists out there

00:04:25.900 and there's people advocating for communism out there

00:04:28.420 openly in the public space.

00:04:30.580 Now, whether that's a healthy thing or not,

00:04:32.400 I think, I think maybe it is.

00:04:33.500 I think there's a huge opportunity in the center

00:04:35.560 for, for someone to sort of take that,

00:04:38.960 to take the, the liberalism in the,

00:04:40.680 in the kind of, liberalism sounds very wishy-washy,

00:04:42.800 but it is a robust fight against authoritarianism,

00:04:48.740 which can come from either side, left or right.

00:04:51.320 People seem to associate it more with the right,

00:04:53.240 but it's, it's the left as well.

00:04:55.120 It's, you know, Michael Malice and the white pill

00:04:56.700 and all the terrible things that can happen on the left,

00:04:59.200 which is the forgotten lesson.

00:05:01.180 We've only got one lesson from the last hundred years

00:05:03.140 that fascism is abhorrent,

00:05:05.520 but the idea that communism is a terrible idea

00:05:07.800 doesn't seem to sort of reflect in the same way.

00:05:09.740 And I sort of view conversation in the same way.

00:05:12.040 I sort of think you can apply the Overton window

00:05:14.280 to things like comedy.

00:05:15.840 Go, why go to a comedy show?

00:05:17.340 Why come and see me in a, in a big arena?

00:05:19.640 Other than, you know, please do.

00:05:22.480 But that thing of like, why come and see a comedy show?

00:05:24.320 Well, partly it's to, it's for the experience

00:05:27.040 and you, you laugh and people release dopamine

00:05:30.700 and serotonin and it's a variable reward system.

00:05:33.620 And it's very fun to see a comedy show, right?

00:05:35.940 But the other thing is the conversation you have afterwards

00:05:38.300 changes, like the conversation between you

00:05:41.520 and your partner afterwards.

00:05:42.340 It's like, okay, we had a conversation like that.

00:05:44.140 And then the conversation is like this.

00:05:46.160 It broadens the conversation.

00:05:47.760 It widens the Overton window

00:05:49.340 of what you can and can't talk about.

00:05:50.900 I think comedians coming out

00:05:52.680 and talking about relationships and difficulties

00:05:54.800 and sexual dysfunction or depression,

00:05:57.420 it makes the conversation much more palatable.

00:06:01.320 I think if you, if you want to have a serious conversation,

00:06:03.480 I think the sugaring the pill a little bit

00:06:06.400 with some laughter is a very, very healthy thing.

00:06:09.060 I end up kind of talking about quite serious things

00:06:10.580 on stage on occasion.

00:06:12.160 And it's kind of okay,

00:06:12.840 because this, the atmosphere is, is comedic.

00:06:15.320 The lens we're looking through

00:06:16.380 and comedy gives you a little bit of perspective.

00:06:19.520 It naturally gives you perspective on something.

00:06:22.380 It's, Peter McGraw talks about this brilliantly.

00:06:24.880 Have you ever had Peter on the show?

00:06:25.980 No.

00:06:26.300 I think you would love him.

00:06:27.160 He's, he's the guy that came up

00:06:28.180 with the theory of benign violation.

00:06:30.220 So this is the idea that jokes cannot be offensive

00:06:32.360 because anything that's a violation,

00:06:35.640 so a violation is something that's not the norm.

00:06:37.820 It shouldn't be this way.

00:06:39.380 It could be anything from tripping up to a genocide.

00:06:41.960 Something bad has happened.

00:06:44.020 And you make it benign

00:06:45.780 by making a joke about that thing.

00:06:47.960 So those concentric circle,

00:06:49.760 those, the Venn diagram overlaps.

00:06:52.340 And within that, when something is a violation

00:06:54.680 and also you're making a joke about it,

00:06:56.020 you're making that benign.

00:06:57.240 You're making it okay by joking about it.

00:07:00.020 You're processing that trauma.

00:07:02.980 One of the things I particularly love,

00:07:04.780 which is what you've touched on,

00:07:05.920 is it broadens the Overton window.

00:07:08.620 It expands what you can and can't talk about.

00:07:10.560 But it also points out to you certain things

00:07:12.960 that you didn't know to be true at the time.

00:07:15.440 For example, now this is in the 90s,

00:07:17.200 so slightly dated,

00:07:18.240 but Chris Rock had a routine about

00:07:20.100 there's no wealthy black people.

00:07:21.700 And his friend pointed out,

00:07:26.080 or it was an audience member,

00:07:26.980 he was like, yeah, but what about Shaq O'Neal?

00:07:29.340 Shaquille O'Neal.

00:07:30.020 And he went, well, Shaquille O'Neal is rich.

00:07:31.940 He's not wealthy.

00:07:32.700 There's a difference.

00:07:33.400 He was like, well, what do you mean?

00:07:34.280 He went, you know the man who signs Shaq's checks?

00:07:38.480 He's wealthy.

00:07:40.160 Shaq is rich.

00:07:40.960 I mean, I think pound for pound,

00:07:42.920 Chris Rock might be the goat.

00:07:44.600 Yeah.

00:07:45.000 I think he might be.

00:07:45.760 He's one of the smartest guys I've ever met.

00:07:48.660 I mean, he's extraordinary.

00:07:50.140 He made this point about America just after,

00:07:54.020 I think this was the night he got slapped.

00:07:56.440 I don't know if you're aware,

00:07:57.220 but he went to the Oscars and he got starstruck.

00:08:01.900 But he made this point about the biggest drug in America

00:08:05.000 is not fentanyl.

00:08:07.420 It's not opium.

00:08:08.560 The biggest drug is attention.

00:08:09.860 And there's three ways to get attention.

00:08:13.600 You can be fantastically talented at something,

00:08:17.760 famous for that.

00:08:19.240 You could be infamous, or you could be a victim.

00:08:23.000 What are people going to go with?

00:08:24.380 And then he built kind of a routine around that.

00:08:26.420 But it was like, he's a philosopher.

00:08:29.960 He's just a brilliant, brilliant mind.

00:08:32.500 And what's really interesting and what I love about comedy

00:08:35.160 is it has the power to take on some of these complex ideas,

00:08:38.720 simplify them.

00:08:40.880 But because they're simplified,

00:08:42.540 they're so much more digestible.

00:08:44.260 And it's like a bullet.

00:08:45.500 You just kind of whittle it and whittle it and whittle it and whittle it down

00:08:48.440 to the point that when it has,

00:08:50.540 when it's ejected,

00:08:51.820 when it's propelled out of the gun,

00:08:53.460 it will pierce you far, far deeper than just,

00:08:58.260 you know, like an academic's broad point,

00:09:00.580 like an hour lecture or something.

00:09:02.100 I totally get you because that thing of like,

00:09:03.880 what remains?

00:09:04.960 There's great quotes from history that have remained

00:09:07.720 and there are fables and stories that we tell each other

00:09:11.500 that have remained, that are thousands of years old.

00:09:13.600 What remains?

00:09:14.180 Well, there's a truth to them.

00:09:15.860 There's a value in stuff that,

00:09:17.820 that Lindy thing, Lindy books.

00:09:20.060 You aware of that concept?

00:09:21.320 No.

00:09:21.620 So a Lindy book is something that,

00:09:23.100 like it basically says the value of something

00:09:25.400 is how long it has lasted.

00:09:27.200 Wow.

00:09:27.360 How long a book has lasted is how long it is likely to last.

00:09:31.240 So if you think about Crime and Punishment or The Brothers.

00:09:36.560 Karamazov.

00:09:37.080 Yeah.

00:09:37.460 You go, well, hang on,

00:09:38.520 that's been around a long time.

00:09:39.200 I love the confidence of Francis to take that one

00:09:41.420 and take over pronouncing The Brothers Karamazov.

00:09:45.300 Next time you start banging on about Venezuela,

00:09:49.780 I'm going to hablo espanol.

00:09:51.300 Yeah, exactly.

00:09:52.080 But that thing of my going,

00:09:53.120 how long do those things,

00:09:54.440 how long have they lasted

00:09:55.300 and how long will they last?

00:09:57.360 So that idea of going,

00:09:58.580 especially in the culture that we live in now,

00:10:00.180 where it does feel like something odd is happening culturally.

00:10:04.960 It feels like we're reaching,

00:10:06.540 I'm a big fan of reading Mark Fisher and Jujic.

00:10:11.940 So Mark Fisher was a great British sort of social commentator,

00:10:16.020 really.

00:10:16.360 He wrote a lot about culture.

00:10:17.820 He said the 21st century is just the 20th century

00:10:19.920 on better screens.

00:10:22.200 Like what great stuff is being made at the moment?

00:10:24.700 You know,

00:10:25.600 because you go,

00:10:26.260 there's a,

00:10:27.500 there's something missing at the moment.

00:10:28.960 There's very few,

00:10:31.320 you know,

00:10:31.700 in my business,

00:10:32.780 there's comedies bigger than ever,

00:10:34.800 but it's smaller than ever.

00:10:36.560 Right?

00:10:37.000 So there's a weird thing going on where you go,

00:10:38.880 great comedy movies aren't being made at the moment.

00:10:41.500 Mm-hmm.

00:10:41.700 I've just made a film,

00:10:43.000 and it's getting a release,

00:10:44.100 and that is as close to a miracle as I've been.

00:10:47.160 Right?

00:10:47.300 That's an extraordinary thing.

00:10:48.440 Because people don't make movies that are funny for grown-ups anymore.

00:10:52.820 But that used to happen.

00:10:54.060 15 years ago,

00:10:54.900 that happened all the time.

00:10:56.120 And we still quote those movies,

00:10:57.340 and we still watch them all the time.

00:10:58.700 And we kind of find it amusing that kids of 17, 18, 19

00:11:01.720 are re-watching Friends and The Office.

00:11:04.680 But of course they are,

00:11:05.600 because nothing new is being made in that space.

00:11:08.600 It's,

00:11:08.900 that's very odd.

00:11:10.280 And then comedians,

00:11:11.440 which is,

00:11:12.400 we're on our own.

00:11:13.540 So we're not part of an institution.

00:11:15.680 So when you look at something like

00:11:16.920 The Death of Late Night in America,

00:11:20.320 and the idea that,

00:11:21.080 you know,

00:11:21.340 Colbert is cancelled,

00:11:22.880 you go,

00:11:23.160 well,

00:11:23.180 that's odd.

00:11:24.080 That's an odd thing now.

00:11:25.340 And then,

00:11:26.220 there isn't a generation of comics

00:11:27.560 that are desperate for that job.

00:11:29.780 Most comedians now,

00:11:30.960 at a level,

00:11:31.440 go,

00:11:32.180 no,

00:11:32.360 no,

00:11:32.460 I'll just tour and do my thing.

00:11:33.940 I don't want to be part of the institution anymore.

00:11:36.200 It's a very odd cultural moment that we're in.

00:11:38.720 And I think it's linked to,

00:11:40.680 sort of,

00:11:41.000 broadly,

00:11:42.340 our society,

00:11:43.160 that what's happening,

00:11:44.160 as we,

00:11:45.320 as we reach,

00:11:46.640 sort of,

00:11:47.680 the fourth turning.

00:11:48.820 And what is that?

00:11:49.800 Well,

00:11:50.100 this is Neil Howe,

00:11:51.220 who's,

00:11:51.920 brilliant academic.

00:11:54.280 He's a demographer.

00:11:55.380 He's the guy that came up with the term millennial.

00:11:57.380 Wow.

00:11:57.660 He's been around a long time,

00:11:59.260 very influential,

00:12:00.220 and he wrote a book,

00:12:00.840 I think it was in 1996,

00:12:02.280 I could be wrong about that,

00:12:03.480 called The Fourth Turning.

00:12:04.760 And they've just updated the book.

00:12:06.380 And it's fascinating.

00:12:07.500 It's about how,

00:12:08.760 history doesn't repeat,

00:12:10.300 but it rhymes.

00:12:11.780 And he talks about cycles in history.

00:12:14.380 A lot of people are very cynical about that.

00:12:15.920 I like the idea.

00:12:16.940 So his idea would be that 1929,

00:12:20.580 and the Wall Street crash,

00:12:22.180 is 2008,

00:12:24.280 and the financial crash.

00:12:26.440 And if you look at the Dust Bowl in America,

00:12:28.540 and you look at the...

00:12:30.040 Rust Belt.

00:12:31.300 The Rust Belt,

00:12:32.120 but you also look at climate change,

00:12:33.520 you look at what's going on with the environment at the moment,

00:12:36.040 and you look at the Spanish flu,

00:12:37.380 and you look at COVID,

00:12:38.420 you say,

00:12:38.680 well, history's kind of rhyming.

00:12:40.120 And you look at that,

00:12:41.360 that financial crash in 29 and 08

00:12:44.220 is the beginning of the end.

00:12:46.600 And it's a period of revolution,

00:12:51.440 for want of a better term.

00:12:52.940 I think we're at the start of a revolution.

00:12:54.880 It's going to be a cheery episode, everybody.

00:12:57.220 Well, there are bloodless revolutions,

00:12:59.140 and there are revolutions...

00:13:00.820 How many bloodless revolutions can you name, Jimmy?

00:13:03.720 Look.

00:13:06.420 What is a...

00:13:07.500 If we were going to define a revolution, right?

00:13:09.560 It's a replacement of the elites.

00:13:11.220 Yeah.

00:13:11.720 And I can see that in...

00:13:13.220 Okay, that's interesting.

00:13:14.540 Yeah.

00:13:15.100 So the elites are replaced.

00:13:16.740 Okay, so you look at something like the BBC,

00:13:19.820 and what they've gone through the last month,

00:13:22.000 you're seeing that's an elite organisation,

00:13:25.300 and it is in turmoil.

00:13:28.580 Okay, they're having a crisis at the top.

00:13:30.820 Everyone is...

00:13:31.420 The tea lady resigned yesterday.

00:13:33.440 Everything's gone, right?

00:13:34.520 So...

00:13:35.040 And that's being replaced by this,

00:13:37.380 by podcasters and individuals,

00:13:40.140 and there used to be an elite

00:13:43.340 that ran this country.

00:13:44.700 Since 1945, it has been Labour and Tory,

00:13:47.740 and they swapped every couple of years,

00:13:50.920 but of late,

00:13:52.360 you couldn't get a cigarette paper between them,

00:13:54.220 and it feels like...

00:13:56.640 I mean, we could be wrong here.

00:13:57.880 You know, a week is a long time in politics,

00:13:59.260 never mind three years,

00:14:00.000 but it feels like at the next election,

00:14:02.340 those elites will be replaced.

00:14:06.280 And it feels like...

00:14:08.280 You know, so that's media,

00:14:09.940 that's politics.

00:14:11.540 You look at academia.

00:14:12.780 Academia, there's a replication crisis

00:14:15.000 in the social sciences,

00:14:17.600 and physics has stalled entirely.

00:14:20.700 It feels like the elites are falling,

00:14:24.740 and they're being replaced.

00:14:25.700 And that's, on the one hand,

00:14:27.280 that is a very scary time to live through.

00:14:31.200 And on the other hand,

00:14:32.360 you go, well, also,

00:14:33.920 history says, well,

00:14:36.180 that destruction leads to...

00:14:38.420 You know, you get this from the Hindu religion.

00:14:40.460 You go, that destruction leads to rebirth.

00:14:42.840 When you buy seafood,

00:14:45.520 what do you worry about most?

00:14:47.620 Nutrition?

00:14:48.620 Sustainability?

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00:16:19.160 Friday, March 6th

00:16:20.020 to Wednesday, March 11th.

00:16:21.240 Valid in-store and online.

00:16:25.880 And we need it.

00:16:27.040 I mean, let's be honest.

00:16:29.040 It's not coming a day too early.

00:16:31.640 Like, it's come to the point

00:16:33.600 where I don't think

00:16:35.240 these institutions

00:16:37.200 and these structures

00:16:38.540 attached as we may be to them.

00:16:40.560 I mean, Francis and I

00:16:41.380 talked about the BBC.

00:16:43.120 We've just had an episode out

00:16:44.480 with a BBC whistleblower

00:16:45.580 talking about it.

00:16:47.020 We love the BBC.

00:16:48.080 We want it to succeed,

00:16:49.200 but it isn't succeeding.

00:16:50.760 We might be happy

00:16:52.360 with the two center-left,

00:16:54.260 center-right parties

00:16:55.100 that sort of keep everything

00:16:56.380 status quo broadly

00:16:57.780 sort of well-tended,

00:16:59.120 but the status quo

00:17:00.160 doesn't work anymore.

00:17:01.380 It's producing results

00:17:02.740 that are so incompatible

00:17:05.300 with human flourishing

00:17:06.600 in our society

00:17:07.380 that I just think

00:17:08.160 the time has come for this, right?

00:17:09.680 It's inevitable at this point.

00:17:11.440 Yeah, I mean,

00:17:12.020 I get the feeling

00:17:12.440 you're an accelerationist, right?

00:17:14.100 You sort of think,

00:17:14.880 well, this needs to happen faster.

00:17:16.840 I think it'll, like,

00:17:18.040 how fast it happens

00:17:18.960 is quite important, I think.

00:17:21.200 Because it's got to be,

00:17:21.920 I think a slow shift

00:17:23.040 is quite peaceful.

00:17:24.760 And it's that thing of,

00:17:25.860 like, you go, you know,

00:17:27.640 with a lot of hot topics

00:17:28.480 at the moment, right?

00:17:29.300 So what's the hottest topic

00:17:30.360 in the world is immigration, right?

00:17:32.040 My view on immigration

00:17:32.820 is we've got

00:17:33.480 eight and a half billion people

00:17:35.100 on the planet.

00:17:36.220 And our lifestyle,

00:17:37.620 broadly speaking,

00:17:38.320 is available

00:17:38.800 to half a billion people.

00:17:40.240 And everyone else,

00:17:41.200 the game is up.

00:17:42.200 Because everyone's seen that

00:17:43.340 on their smartphone

00:17:44.240 in the third world

00:17:45.340 and they've gone,

00:17:45.740 right, I want a little piece

00:17:46.520 of that action.

00:17:47.580 And we either import

00:17:49.100 huge numbers of people

00:17:51.020 or we export

00:17:52.620 our institutions.

00:17:54.620 And I'm a great believer

00:17:55.600 that our culture

00:17:57.280 is downstream

00:17:59.460 of our institutions.

00:18:01.220 You know,

00:18:01.440 the best examples

00:18:02.420 really are

00:18:03.300 North and South Korea,

00:18:05.240 exactly the same people,

00:18:07.420 different systems

00:18:08.020 come into play,

00:18:08.860 and then suddenly

00:18:09.900 you have

00:18:10.540 different worlds, right?

00:18:13.420 And then you look

00:18:14.220 at East and West Germany

00:18:15.060 and the same thing.

00:18:17.380 Exactly the same people,

00:18:18.540 different systems,

00:18:19.240 different worlds.

00:18:19.800 You can apply it

00:18:20.380 to companies as well.

00:18:21.580 What's the difference

00:18:22.020 between IBM and Apple?

00:18:25.060 It's a culture.

00:18:26.540 There's an illusion

00:18:27.360 that Steve Jobs

00:18:28.820 did everything,

00:18:30.260 the one-man band.

00:18:31.660 No.

00:18:32.400 It's a culture

00:18:33.320 that he helped create,

00:18:35.960 created a very different world.

00:18:37.000 You look at Ford

00:18:37.640 and you look at Tesla.

00:18:39.100 There's, you know,

00:18:40.040 IBM and Apple,

00:18:42.340 there's some nerds.

00:18:43.980 But the nerds

00:18:44.900 had a different culture

00:18:45.460 and very different results.

00:18:46.920 Ford, Tesla,

00:18:48.020 some engineers,

00:18:48.960 some mechanics,

00:18:49.620 very different results.

00:18:51.120 And I think that

00:18:52.680 that idea of kind of

00:18:53.640 exporting our institutions

00:18:56.460 is probably the way to go.

00:18:59.340 And we seem to have

00:19:00.040 lost faith.

00:19:00.640 I think the other thing

00:19:01.200 that Neil Howe

00:19:02.720 would sort of talk about

00:19:03.880 in the fourth turning

00:19:04.640 is the idea that you go,

00:19:06.300 as you reach the end

00:19:07.900 of a period of history,

00:19:09.340 you lose faith

00:19:10.360 in your foundation myth.

00:19:11.940 And we have lost faith

00:19:13.260 in our foundation myth.

00:19:14.360 Our foundation myth

00:19:15.240 is World War II.

00:19:17.380 And you could see it

00:19:19.320 crumbling

00:19:19.620 the last couple of years.

00:19:20.860 You could see people

00:19:21.740 starting to,

00:19:22.780 I always think Kanye West

00:19:23.740 is a very good tuning fork.

00:19:26.460 He's a genius.

00:19:27.340 He's a genuine genius.

00:19:28.380 Yeah, he is.

00:19:28.760 But he is a,

00:19:29.380 but that comes with a level

00:19:30.340 of a pinch of crazy, right?

00:19:33.600 So mad as a loon,

00:19:35.460 but right about things.

00:19:37.200 You know,

00:19:37.360 so he starts to,

00:19:38.180 you know,

00:19:38.400 people start to question

00:19:39.380 who's the goody

00:19:40.320 and who's the baddie

00:19:40.880 in World War II.

00:19:41.600 The sort of most obvious thing

00:19:43.740 you could think to ask.

00:19:45.780 But people start questioning that.

00:19:47.920 And you go,

00:19:48.600 okay,

00:19:48.720 well,

00:19:48.820 that myth isn't working anymore.

00:19:50.280 That foundation.

00:19:52.220 You know,

00:19:52.360 why was America so successful

00:19:53.900 in the 50s and 60s?

00:19:55.960 You know,

00:19:56.160 and actually,

00:19:56.680 in British society,

00:19:57.520 why was it such a high trust

00:19:59.420 society in the 50s, 60s?

00:20:01.360 Well,

00:20:02.460 because it didn't matter

00:20:03.260 if you were left or right.

00:20:04.520 You just wore

00:20:05.080 the same uniform together.

00:20:06.740 You had that thing

00:20:08.140 where you came together.

00:20:10.040 And it feels like,

00:20:11.700 I don't know how you feel about this,

00:20:12.700 but it feels like

00:20:13.120 we over-solve now

00:20:14.380 for the individual.

00:20:15.780 In liberal democracy,

00:20:16.820 we've over-solved

00:20:17.760 for the liberal,

00:20:18.520 for the individual.

00:20:19.720 And we don't have enough

00:20:20.800 of the demos.

00:20:21.840 And I see a lot of the,

00:20:23.240 you know,

00:20:23.840 the terrible problems

00:20:24.940 that young people are facing.

00:20:27.280 The mental health crisis,

00:20:29.120 which is just,

00:20:30.040 it's a,

00:20:30.780 we should be talking about

00:20:31.680 all the time.

00:20:33.540 You know,

00:20:34.060 there's a crisis out there.

00:20:35.280 And I don't think

00:20:38.780 you can solve that

00:20:39.420 at an individual level.

00:20:40.980 No.

00:20:41.200 I think if you have

00:20:42.540 a mental health problem,

00:20:43.840 what you need to think about

00:20:45.500 is your dispersed identity.

00:20:47.860 None of us are living

00:20:48.720 as individuals.

00:20:49.680 We have a dispersed identity.

00:20:51.140 You are who you are

00:20:51.880 with your parents,

00:20:52.840 with your friends,

00:20:54.000 your peer group,

00:20:55.020 your colleagues.

00:20:56.220 You're all of those things.

00:20:58.800 And if you have

00:21:00.000 a mental health problem,

00:21:00.640 it tends to come from,

00:21:02.080 it's you're alone too much.

00:21:04.660 Screens have not been

00:21:05.260 the answer.

00:21:06.400 No.

00:21:06.720 We thought screens

00:21:07.660 were going to be a proxy

00:21:08.560 for proximity.

00:21:09.660 We thought they were

00:21:10.240 going to bring us together.

00:21:11.500 And it hasn't worked.

00:21:13.060 And at some stage,

00:21:13.800 we need to face up to that

00:21:14.700 and say it doesn't,

00:21:15.740 it doesn't work in that way.

00:21:18.000 Scott Galloway said

00:21:18.840 a brilliant thing recently

00:21:19.620 about,

00:21:20.020 he was talking about

00:21:20.600 sort of young people.

00:21:21.600 He just went,

00:21:22.920 they've got to go drinking.

00:21:24.980 The damage to your liver

00:21:26.420 is as nothing

00:21:28.720 compared to the damage

00:21:29.920 of social isolation.

00:21:31.760 To get out there

00:21:32.480 and have fun.

00:21:33.020 I mean,

00:21:33.180 you made a great speech

00:21:34.140 a couple of years ago

00:21:34.700 about,

00:21:35.620 I think it was

00:21:36.540 ARC or something.

00:21:37.500 I saw it online.

00:21:38.420 I just thought it was fantastic

00:21:39.180 because you talked about

00:21:40.140 how we've got to deal in

00:21:41.680 a younger generation.

00:21:43.660 They've got to be part of this.

00:21:44.960 They've got to feel like

00:21:46.080 they've got skin in the game.

00:21:48.380 I mean,

00:21:48.600 I sort of think

00:21:49.120 I'm fully in agreement.

00:21:50.700 And my thing would be

00:21:51.980 tax.

00:21:53.680 I'll talk about tax.

00:21:54.600 I know a thing

00:21:54.980 I'll talk about tax.

00:21:57.280 But what if,

00:21:58.340 what if we didn't tax

00:21:59.320 anyone in their 20s?

00:22:01.100 What if we just said

00:22:02.140 under 30,

00:22:03.580 no tax?

00:22:05.000 That's a great idea.

00:22:05.800 So,

00:22:06.220 and you would say in that,

00:22:07.380 you would go,

00:22:07.880 you're incentivising people

00:22:08.960 not to go to university

00:22:10.400 and to get jobs.

00:22:12.600 Okay?

00:22:12.920 Which some people

00:22:13.560 might view as negative.

00:22:15.160 But university

00:22:15.900 is a luxury item.

00:22:17.660 And luxury items

00:22:18.800 don't work

00:22:19.440 if everyone has them.

00:22:21.640 And 50% of people

00:22:22.860 going to university

00:22:23.600 doesn't strike me

00:22:24.960 as equitable.

00:22:26.560 It strikes me

00:22:27.200 that university

00:22:27.820 should be,

00:22:28.880 they're elite.

00:22:29.700 It's tertiary education.

00:22:31.600 It should be for the elites.

00:22:32.440 It should also be free.

00:22:33.940 If you're studying something

00:22:34.860 that grows corn,

00:22:36.620 that adds to our society,

00:22:38.580 which is,

00:22:39.300 let's call it STEM, right?

00:22:40.660 If I was in,

00:22:41.300 put me in charge tomorrow,

00:22:42.520 I'd go,

00:22:42.840 right,

00:22:42.940 go to university,

00:22:44.140 study STEM,

00:22:44.940 and it's free.

00:22:46.580 That would strike me

00:22:47.360 as a very positive thing.

00:22:49.240 You're dealing

00:22:49.760 in the younger generation.

00:22:51.560 You're going,

00:22:51.920 okay,

00:22:52.360 well,

00:22:52.560 look,

00:22:52.740 you guys are academic.

00:22:53.880 You guys are going to go

00:22:54.740 and do something else,

00:22:56.040 but you're going to earn money

00:22:56.980 and you're going to keep that money.

00:22:58.280 Keep all of it

00:22:59.120 till you're 30.

00:23:01.200 I think maybe tax

00:23:02.340 between 30 and 60.

00:23:05.360 And then we have to stop

00:23:06.520 doing fantasy politics

00:23:07.880 where we go,

00:23:08.720 yeah,

00:23:08.900 yeah,

00:23:09.000 we're going to pay

00:23:09.360 everyone's pension forever.

00:23:10.500 We haven't got enough

00:23:11.400 young people

00:23:11.960 to pay for the pension.

00:23:12.940 So maybe over 60,

00:23:15.060 you go,

00:23:15.400 okay,

00:23:15.520 again,

00:23:16.100 no tax.

00:23:17.160 No tax.

00:23:17.640 Just do your thing.

00:23:19.220 That's kind of,

00:23:19.760 it would strike me

00:23:20.220 as kind of an interesting

00:23:20.940 way to cut it up.

00:23:22.860 Do you know

00:23:23.400 what comes to my mind

00:23:24.880 when we're talking

00:23:25.920 and the ideas

00:23:26.540 that you're proposing?

00:23:27.640 And I think

00:23:28.300 why we have a crisis

00:23:29.340 in the elites

00:23:30.140 at the moment

00:23:30.900 is that whenever

00:23:32.080 I talk to my friends

00:23:33.200 who are more of the,

00:23:34.340 shall we say,

00:23:34.760 traditional way

00:23:35.540 of viewing the world,

00:23:37.000 what strikes me

00:23:37.740 is that they have

00:23:38.240 an inflexibility

00:23:39.280 of thought.

00:23:40.620 And I say to them,

00:23:41.300 have you ever thought

00:23:41.740 about this?

00:23:42.180 Have you thought

00:23:42.520 about this?

00:23:42.980 Have you thought

00:23:43.320 about this?

00:23:43.820 Or this argument?

00:23:44.560 They're like,

00:23:44.840 no,

00:23:45.140 no,

00:23:45.440 no.

00:23:45.880 No,

00:23:46.100 that doesn't

00:23:46.520 adhere to my worldview.

00:23:48.040 But in this world

00:23:48.960 that we're moving into,

00:23:50.400 the one that you're talking

00:23:51.540 about and the one

00:23:52.220 that we're all seeing,

00:23:53.300 you need a flexibility

00:23:54.320 of thought.

00:23:55.280 You need to be able

00:23:56.200 to consider new ideas.

00:23:57.780 You need to be able

00:23:58.640 to understand

00:23:59.180 that there's a technology

00:24:00.120 coming in,

00:24:00.740 AI,

00:24:01.200 that is going to

00:24:01.860 radically transform

00:24:02.860 the way we live,

00:24:03.880 the way we work,

00:24:04.880 the way we interact

00:24:05.760 with each other,

00:24:06.320 the way that we

00:24:06.900 see ourselves.

00:24:08.140 And we're going

00:24:08.920 to need to actually

00:24:10.080 be flexible.

00:24:11.380 Yeah.

00:24:11.720 I think that thing

00:24:12.520 about what's a revolution,

00:24:14.360 where everything changes

00:24:15.760 everything, right?

00:24:16.620 So if everything changes,

00:24:18.140 how would you want

00:24:19.380 to conduct your society?

00:24:20.700 I mean,

00:24:20.900 I don't understand.

00:24:21.960 Well,

00:24:22.000 come on to AI

00:24:22.760 because I've got

00:24:23.460 some views on AI.

00:24:24.780 But that idea of going,

00:24:26.300 why don't we have

00:24:26.900 a sovereign wealth fund?

00:24:28.700 Why have we not got

00:24:29.700 one in the UK?

00:24:30.720 We're sitting talking

00:24:31.580 on the day of the budget.

00:24:33.040 And that would strike me

00:24:34.340 as quite a radical thing

00:24:35.200 to do.

00:24:35.840 There are certain things

00:24:36.500 that should belong

00:24:37.080 to everyone.

00:24:38.300 And one of those things

00:24:39.160 is the oil and gas

00:24:40.200 that sit under the UK.

00:24:42.700 And also,

00:24:44.100 the wind farms

00:24:44.760 around the coast.

00:24:45.940 All of that money

00:24:46.500 goes to the crown.

00:24:48.060 Why?

00:24:49.140 That should belong

00:24:49.780 to everyone.

00:24:50.860 The mobile phone masts.

00:24:52.900 That would be a good thing

00:24:53.600 that you go,

00:24:54.180 okay, I'm not a socialist.

00:24:55.860 I'm not even,

00:24:56.480 for state capitalism,

00:24:57.560 but the idea of going,

00:24:58.300 well, that should belong

00:24:58.900 to everyone.

00:24:59.880 We should own that.

00:25:01.420 And we should,

00:25:02.600 and our,

00:25:03.300 you know,

00:25:03.840 I'm not saying maybe

00:25:04.800 we should restart

00:25:05.460 the mining industry.

00:25:06.840 But I would not mind

00:25:07.620 it if our government

00:25:08.100 said, yeah,

00:25:08.520 we're going to mine

00:25:09.180 for bitcoins.

00:25:10.500 Our power stations just,

00:25:12.420 they don't do anything

00:25:13.240 at night,

00:25:13.640 so we're going to mine

00:25:14.180 for bitcoins.

00:25:15.400 Great.

00:25:16.280 New gold standard.

00:25:17.400 Fine.

00:25:18.580 Do something radical.

00:25:20.100 Something interesting

00:25:21.020 with the finances

00:25:22.280 of the country.

00:25:22.900 Why does it all

00:25:23.500 have to come

00:25:24.120 from taxation?

00:25:25.860 You know,

00:25:26.080 I look at the Irish.

00:25:27.220 I carry an Irish passport

00:25:28.480 and I'm proudly Irish.

00:25:30.500 The Irish just undercut

00:25:31.820 everyone else in Europe

00:25:32.660 on corporation tax

00:25:34.120 to get the big tech

00:25:35.240 companies to come there.

00:25:38.580 Don't tell anyone

00:25:39.740 Irish I said this,

00:25:40.720 but why don't we

00:25:42.280 undercut them?

00:25:44.560 Why not?

00:25:45.940 We left Europe.

00:25:46.800 We haven't got any

00:25:47.220 rules to follow.

00:25:47.860 We're on our own.

00:25:48.540 Why don't we just

00:25:48.960 undercut and go,

00:25:49.900 yeah, come here.

00:25:50.600 Start a company.

00:25:52.200 It doesn't strike me

00:25:53.220 as a crazy idea.

00:25:54.760 If we've got this

00:25:55.200 new technology,

00:25:56.020 AI, coming,

00:25:56.620 then, you know,

00:25:58.460 this is precedented.

00:25:59.580 This happened before.

00:26:01.340 You know,

00:26:01.640 the Industrial Revolution

00:26:02.660 made our bodies obsolete

00:26:05.060 because the Industrial Revolution

00:26:07.020 said, well,

00:26:07.740 we don't need you

00:26:08.600 to plow the field anymore.

00:26:09.620 We have a machine

00:26:10.200 that will do that.

00:26:11.240 Okay, so 98%

00:26:12.640 of people worked in farming

00:26:15.000 and then they moved

00:26:16.260 to the factories.

00:26:17.280 Okay, and now AI

00:26:19.240 will,

00:26:20.040 any repetitive job

00:26:21.340 that people have

00:26:22.380 will be done

00:26:23.640 by AI.

00:26:25.260 Okay, so that's

00:26:25.920 going to change

00:26:26.480 everything

00:26:27.600 and maybe

00:26:28.660 our minds

00:26:29.780 won't be needed

00:26:30.360 because AI

00:26:31.040 will take everything.

00:26:32.900 You know,

00:26:33.080 you have people

00:26:33.580 and then you go,

00:26:34.620 well, what are you left with?

00:26:35.820 I don't know what advice

00:26:36.740 you give young people now

00:26:37.520 but maybe be a preacher.

00:26:39.660 It hasn't got to spirit yet.

00:26:41.780 Be a priest.

00:26:42.700 Very old school.

00:26:43.800 And that's really

00:26:44.780 what we need

00:26:45.540 and what I find...

00:26:47.220 Wait, what do we need?

00:26:48.520 AI priest?

00:26:49.720 AI priest.

00:26:50.580 No, this kind of

00:26:51.700 flexibility of thought

00:26:52.620 that Jimmy is demonstrating

00:26:53.900 because I look at,

00:26:55.560 when I look at the left,

00:26:57.220 I go,

00:26:58.080 what are the new ideas?

00:26:59.880 And they're basically going,

00:27:01.540 well, we just need

00:27:02.140 higher taxes.

00:27:03.200 We need socialism.

00:27:04.420 I'm like,

00:27:04.860 that hasn't really worked.

00:27:06.480 And you look at a lot

00:27:07.340 of people on the right

00:27:08.380 and a lot of...

00:27:09.340 And they seem to be stuck

00:27:10.440 in the same kind of limbo

00:27:11.780 which I think is why

00:27:14.660 revolution,

00:27:16.420 a type of

00:27:17.080 bloodless revolution,

00:27:18.640 political revolution...

00:27:19.620 But is that not the,

00:27:20.320 you know,

00:27:21.480 is it Zizek?

00:27:22.180 I can never get his name right.

00:27:23.400 Slavo Zizek.

00:27:24.220 Yeah.

00:27:24.760 I'm nailing it

00:27:25.280 on the pronunciation

00:27:25.920 today, mate.

00:27:26.660 I love his work.

00:27:27.820 I think he's a really

00:27:28.880 fascinating guy.

00:27:29.600 I love that documentary,

00:27:30.480 the

00:27:30.880 Pervert's Guide to Ideology.

00:27:33.820 It's like,

00:27:34.100 really fantastic movie.

00:27:35.640 Look,

00:27:36.200 he's a really interesting guy

00:27:36.940 because he talks about

00:27:37.980 the future's being cancelled.

00:27:39.140 Yeah.

00:27:39.360 He talks about this idea

00:27:40.200 that you go,

00:27:40.760 yeah,

00:27:40.860 we're talking about,

00:27:41.600 you know,

00:27:41.880 communism on one side

00:27:43.200 and fascism on the other side.

00:27:44.440 We're re-litigating

00:27:45.600 the 1930s.

00:27:47.540 What we need is new ideas,

00:27:48.920 new ways of doing things.

00:27:50.040 So you look around the world

00:27:51.160 and I kind of think,

00:27:52.460 I'm very positive about life,

00:27:53.620 right?

00:27:53.740 And I go,

00:27:54.200 lots of places have got this right

00:27:55.560 over the years

00:27:57.060 and they've got bits of it right.

00:27:58.800 So why don't we just

00:27:59.300 take those bits?

00:28:00.960 If the UK is independent,

00:28:02.680 if we go,

00:28:03.160 well,

00:28:03.260 why don't we take those,

00:28:04.400 the bits that work

00:28:05.200 and try those?

00:28:06.740 It's also that thing

00:28:07.460 of like going,

00:28:08.120 it's a big country

00:28:08.720 that we live in

00:28:09.600 and I like,

00:28:11.760 I got an awful lot

00:28:12.580 from British cycling

00:28:13.440 over the years.

00:28:14.780 Weirdly,

00:28:15.220 in my comedy career.

00:28:16.240 I don't like cycling,

00:28:17.460 I find it very boring to watch

00:28:18.580 but I like the idea

00:28:19.920 of incremental improvement.

00:28:22.140 The idea that British cycling

00:28:23.260 went,

00:28:23.600 look,

00:28:23.800 we can't get 10% better,

00:28:25.180 it's just not possible

00:28:25.940 but we can get half a percent better

00:28:27.780 if we,

00:28:28.480 I don't know,

00:28:28.780 shave our legs

00:28:29.460 or if we wear heat packs

00:28:31.940 on our thighs

00:28:32.680 so we never cool down

00:28:33.580 between the heats

00:28:34.640 and it was these tiny little

00:28:36.280 incremental things

00:28:37.120 that they did

00:28:37.680 that just improved it

00:28:38.780 just a little bit.

00:28:39.680 I think comedy,

00:28:40.360 I think life is a bit like that.

00:28:41.440 It's not about repetition,

00:28:42.600 it's about iteration.

00:28:44.000 It's about changing things

00:28:44.800 just a little bit every time

00:28:45.960 and split testing.

00:28:47.640 So,

00:28:48.040 you might have an idea

00:28:48.760 that's crazy

00:28:49.360 or you might have an idea

00:28:50.860 that's like out there,

00:28:52.340 universal basic income,

00:28:53.840 right?

00:28:54.020 You might go,

00:28:54.600 well,

00:28:54.880 I think universal basic income

00:28:56.160 might be a very bad idea

00:28:57.260 because it might take away

00:28:59.280 purpose from people

00:29:00.940 and really,

00:29:02.360 if you were going to design,

00:29:03.960 Morgan Housel

00:29:04.640 was talking recently,

00:29:05.720 he's one of my favourite writers,

00:29:06.980 I think he's incredible,

00:29:07.920 but he was talking about

00:29:08.520 like happiness,

00:29:09.400 what's a good design

00:29:10.000 for happiness?

00:29:10.620 And you go,

00:29:11.100 well,

00:29:11.400 independence and purpose.

00:29:13.080 If you have those two,

00:29:14.120 pretty good recipe,

00:29:15.200 you're going to have it,

00:29:16.100 right?

00:29:16.420 So the idea,

00:29:17.140 I think universal basic income

00:29:18.400 might take away purpose

00:29:19.340 from people,

00:29:20.240 but,

00:29:21.500 not sure,

00:29:22.540 wouldn't mind testing it,

00:29:23.840 we've got a lot of towns

00:29:24.460 in Great Britain,

00:29:26.160 why don't we take

00:29:26.720 a bunch of people

00:29:27.360 and say,

00:29:27.740 why don't we try that?

00:29:29.640 Try it for five years,

00:29:30.980 see if it grows corn,

00:29:32.160 see if it works,

00:29:32.760 if it works,

00:29:33.280 fantastic,

00:29:33.740 if it doesn't,

00:29:34.280 okay,

00:29:34.860 we tried it.

00:29:36.140 Like the idea

00:29:36.640 that we have to have

00:29:37.600 one system everywhere

00:29:38.660 and not try anything,

00:29:40.120 it's that thing of like,

00:29:40.860 you want a mix of these things,

00:29:42.280 you want like,

00:29:43.500 a conservative,

00:29:45.560 right?

00:29:45.740 Well,

00:29:45.860 what do you want to conserve?

00:29:47.740 Well,

00:29:47.940 I want to conserve

00:29:48.780 the traditions.

00:29:50.140 What's a tradition?

00:29:51.060 Well,

00:29:51.200 a tradition is an experiment

00:29:52.500 that worked,

00:29:53.920 okay?

00:29:54.460 It's a progressive thing

00:29:56.040 from the past

00:29:57.140 that just worked,

00:29:58.180 just worked for us,

00:29:58.840 great.

00:29:59.200 And I also want

00:29:59.720 to be progressive.

00:30:00.960 I want to try new things

00:30:02.140 and see what works

00:30:03.540 in the future.

00:30:04.200 You know,

00:30:04.360 as the world changes,

00:30:05.820 I want to see

00:30:06.260 where do we end up

00:30:07.500 with this?

00:30:08.540 You know?

00:30:08.840 I think having a

00:30:10.340 sovereign wealth fund

00:30:12.100 for the UK

00:30:12.560 would be a great idea.

00:30:14.140 I think having a,

00:30:15.440 investing in infrastructure,

00:30:19.760 but like in power,

00:30:20.720 we sort of don't know

00:30:21.520 what's going to happen

00:30:22.000 in the future,

00:30:22.400 but you're pretty sure

00:30:23.100 power's going to be important.

00:30:24.640 We're pretty sure

00:30:25.280 we're going to need it

00:30:25.980 and anything we don't need,

00:30:27.420 we can mine for Bitcoin

00:30:28.840 or set up a data center here,

00:30:31.160 whatever we're going to do.

00:30:32.320 So the idea of like going,

00:30:33.520 well,

00:30:33.580 we should be building

00:30:34.240 nuclear power plants.

00:30:35.120 I talked about it

00:30:35.640 last time I was on your show.

00:30:36.820 We should be building

00:30:37.480 those nuclear power plants

00:30:38.480 and the idea that you,

00:30:39.880 that should be

00:30:40.520 a government bond

00:30:41.120 you could buy.

00:30:42.220 It'd be easy

00:30:42.800 to raise the money.

00:30:44.480 People would want

00:30:45.020 to invest in that.

00:30:46.160 But this is why

00:30:46.740 we need that process

00:30:48.760 of rapid change.

00:30:50.320 Maybe not rapid,

00:30:51.220 you know,

00:30:51.460 we can discuss

00:30:52.120 the speed at which

00:30:54.260 it should happen,

00:30:54.900 but this is why

00:30:55.480 you have to have

00:30:56.160 the transformation happen

00:30:57.220 because you are talking

00:30:58.880 in very creative,

00:31:00.620 inventive ways,

00:31:02.520 whereas the entire system

00:31:04.280 feels very stuck.

00:31:06.080 You know,

00:31:06.440 they're just arguing

00:31:07.440 about tax rates

00:31:08.200 at this point

00:31:08.740 and it's about

00:31:09.940 how high they should be

00:31:11.020 and they really should be

00:31:11.820 as high as possible.

00:31:12.400 Well,

00:31:12.620 I do think that

00:31:13.140 there's been

00:31:13.620 a radical shift

00:31:15.260 and I don't quite know

00:31:16.900 where it happened,

00:31:18.120 but there's been

00:31:18.580 a radical shift

00:31:19.340 in our politics

00:31:20.040 in the last couple of years

00:31:21.160 and the radical shift

00:31:23.260 is,

00:31:24.520 I would trace it back

00:31:25.560 to Hillary Clinton

00:31:26.260 calling people deplorable.

00:31:29.320 So,

00:31:30.100 people talk a lot

00:31:31.060 about gentrification

00:31:31.860 and what they tend

00:31:32.920 to talk about

00:31:33.380 is like,

00:31:33.800 oh,

00:31:33.960 Islington used to be

00:31:34.680 a working class area

00:31:35.560 and now it's super fancy

00:31:36.960 and there used to be

00:31:38.600 a Gregg's there

00:31:39.100 and now there's a Gale's.

00:31:40.100 That's gentrification.

00:31:40.900 A very boring level

00:31:43.540 of gentrification,

00:31:44.440 right?

00:31:44.680 Buildings,

00:31:45.220 whatever,

00:31:45.640 a neighbourhood.

00:31:47.300 I think there's been

00:31:48.260 a gentrification

00:31:48.900 of the Labour Party.

00:31:51.160 That party used to be

00:31:52.020 the party of the working man

00:31:53.100 and it isn't.

00:31:55.880 The white van man

00:31:56.920 now votes for,

00:31:59.160 would vote for reform,

00:32:00.580 a party that's on,

00:32:01.580 to the right.

00:32:02.900 When did that shift occur?

00:32:04.800 When did that happen

00:32:05.660 with the Labour Party

00:32:06.900 that used to represent

00:32:07.700 kind of the average

00:32:08.780 working guy

00:32:09.320 and it shifted?

00:32:10.900 That's a very,

00:32:11.960 that's a big shift

00:32:12.940 and that's happened

00:32:13.660 in America as well.

00:32:15.460 So that's,

00:32:15.940 it's the,

00:32:16.820 I don't want it to be

00:32:17.880 the end of liberalism

00:32:19.840 but,

00:32:20.340 you know,

00:32:21.840 it might be.

00:32:23.400 Do you think?

00:32:24.120 Do you think that's

00:32:24.740 what we're actually

00:32:25.400 seeing here,

00:32:26.000 Jimmy?

00:32:26.240 Because I'll be honest

00:32:27.140 with you,

00:32:27.420 I don't want to see

00:32:28.120 the end of liberalism.

00:32:29.280 I think liberalism

00:32:30.160 has many wonderful ideas

00:32:32.540 contained with that umbrella

00:32:33.720 that,

00:32:35.140 I'll be honest with you,

00:32:35.860 I think we take for granted

00:32:36.920 in this country.

00:32:37.620 Well,

00:32:38.060 I mean,

00:32:38.320 that's the,

00:32:38.780 taking for granted

00:32:39.620 is the,

00:32:40.420 is the theme

00:32:41.520 of political discourse

00:32:43.280 at the moment.

00:32:43.720 Yeah.

00:32:44.780 But it's the Robert Frost line,

00:32:46.060 isn't it?

00:32:46.400 The,

00:32:46.700 civilization is a clearing

00:32:48.420 in the forest

00:32:49.000 and everything needs

00:32:51.480 to be relitigated.

00:32:53.220 Everything needs

00:32:53.880 to be looked at again.

00:32:55.340 I'm a huge fan

00:32:56.280 of multi-polarity.

00:32:57.360 Do you ever listen

00:32:57.680 to those guys?

00:32:58.740 Philip Pilkington.

00:33:00.080 Oh,

00:33:00.340 yes.

00:33:01.140 I think you,

00:33:01.660 I remember you

00:33:02.200 recommending him actually.

00:33:03.040 His book is fantastic

00:33:04.540 on this,

00:33:05.200 on the,

00:33:05.500 I think it's,

00:33:05.980 it might be

00:33:06.320 The Death of Liberalism,

00:33:07.320 someone can Google it,

00:33:08.480 but it's a great read

00:33:09.600 about how,

00:33:11.040 look,

00:33:11.240 this won't survive

00:33:12.700 much longer

00:33:13.280 because how can it

00:33:14.400 survive much longer?

00:33:16.260 You know,

00:33:16.520 that thing of,

00:33:16.980 you go,

00:33:17.360 well,

00:33:17.540 in 1929,

00:33:18.820 that financial crash

00:33:19.720 ended in World War II

00:33:21.100 and you look

00:33:22.080 at what's happening now,

00:33:22.920 well,

00:33:23.060 there's no world war

00:33:24.680 but there's lots

00:33:26.800 of conflict going on.

00:33:28.440 You know,

00:33:28.700 there's,

00:33:29.260 you know,

00:33:29.460 if you look at the Middle East,

00:33:30.500 if you look at Ukraine,

00:33:32.720 if you're watching this

00:33:34.460 in six months' time,

00:33:35.520 if you look at Venezuela

00:33:36.440 and Taiwan,

00:33:38.340 you know,

00:33:38.780 it's happening.

00:33:40.940 It's,

00:33:41.740 and why isn't it

00:33:42.640 a world war?

00:33:43.300 Well,

00:33:44.020 there's different views

00:33:44.740 on nuclear weapons,

00:33:45.560 aren't there?

00:33:46.280 Some people think

00:33:47.100 they were used twice

00:33:48.360 and it was the last

00:33:50.140 shots of World War II

00:33:52.040 and then it's people

00:33:53.460 like me that think

00:33:54.200 it was the first shots

00:33:55.300 of the Cold War

00:33:57.780 and that nuclear weapons

00:33:59.320 have been used

00:33:59.780 every day since.

00:34:02.260 That's why we haven't

00:34:03.220 had total war.

00:34:04.680 We can only have

00:34:05.340 these little proxy ports.

00:34:06.500 Yeah.

00:34:06.640 You look at what happens

00:34:07.260 when people get

00:34:07.820 nuclear weapons,

00:34:09.080 you know?

00:34:09.620 Look when Russia

00:34:10.900 got nuclear weapons

00:34:11.980 and we had

00:34:13.180 the Korean War

00:34:14.160 and then China

00:34:15.080 got nuclear weapons

00:34:16.180 and we had Vietnam.

00:34:18.260 It's like

00:34:18.700 something,

00:34:20.200 like the power

00:34:20.820 structure changes,

00:34:21.880 the dynamic changes

00:34:22.840 and we've gone

00:34:23.920 in our lifetimes

00:34:24.760 from a bipolar world

00:34:27.440 and then the Soviet Union

00:34:30.100 fell

00:34:30.500 and we were in

00:34:32.820 a unipolar world

00:34:33.820 for,

00:34:34.440 you know,

00:34:35.560 20 years

00:34:36.220 and as that happened,

00:34:38.440 tax Americana shrunk.

00:34:40.620 Like the American Navy

00:34:41.420 stopped investing

00:34:42.840 in the same way

00:34:43.600 because it was no longer

00:34:45.060 in an existential crisis

00:34:46.320 with an enemy

00:34:46.880 so it became smaller

00:34:48.440 and then you're looking

00:34:49.760 at this multipolar world

00:34:51.060 now,

00:34:51.600 which is fascinating

00:34:53.440 but terrifying

00:34:55.120 because we don't know

00:34:56.700 where the cards

00:34:57.120 are going to lie.

00:34:58.240 Just a sidestep

00:34:59.180 from the conversation

00:34:59.940 for one minute

00:35:00.560 but we've become friends

00:35:02.360 since I think

00:35:03.000 the first time

00:35:03.500 you were on

00:35:03.900 so I'm aware

00:35:04.600 you have an incredibly

00:35:05.920 busy schedule,

00:35:07.160 you've got a young family,

00:35:08.880 you're doing

00:35:10.500 two gigs a night,

00:35:11.640 often,

00:35:12.080 you know,

00:35:12.440 you've got a call,

00:35:13.200 you power through,

00:35:14.600 you've got podcast appearances,

00:35:16.220 media, etc.

00:35:17.140 I'm sure you have

00:35:17.760 businesses to run as well.

00:35:19.340 When do you have time

00:35:19.940 to read all this?

00:35:21.640 The fact you're tuned

00:35:22.900 into this show

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00:36:44.040 Investing is all about

00:36:46.660 the future.

00:36:47.640 So what do you think

00:36:48.760 is going to happen?

00:36:49.580 Bitcoin is sort of

00:36:50.540 inevitable at this point.

00:36:52.080 I think it would come down

00:36:53.360 to precious metals.

00:36:54.640 I hope we don't go

00:36:55.640 cashless.

00:36:56.760 I would say land

00:36:57.700 is a safe investment.

00:36:59.340 Technology,

00:36:59.980 companies,

00:37:00.480 solar energy.

00:37:01.500 Robotic pollinators

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00:37:04.100 A wrestler

00:37:04.520 to face a robot,

00:37:05.800 that will have to happen.

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00:37:15.160 I've got nothing else

00:37:17.560 to do.

00:37:17.940 I like them.

00:37:18.740 I like reading.

00:37:19.320 I like keeping up

00:37:20.060 with this stuff.

00:37:20.580 I like taking an interest

00:37:22.520 in, I think there's,

00:37:24.860 I don't know,

00:37:25.820 I suppose that thing

00:37:26.500 of like going,

00:37:27.680 all we have is time

00:37:28.800 and attention.

00:37:29.660 It's all we have in life.

00:37:30.420 And where are you

00:37:30.860 going to put that?

00:37:31.800 And I think a lot

00:37:32.560 of things are,

00:37:35.220 I find it fascinating.

00:37:36.980 I find it like a,

00:37:38.180 and I like,

00:37:39.920 I kind of like,

00:37:41.600 I don't know,

00:37:42.200 this kind of,

00:37:42.560 the podcast world

00:37:43.280 is really,

00:37:44.020 I suppose it's given me

00:37:45.560 great access

00:37:46.360 because you listen

00:37:47.900 to a podcast

00:37:48.340 and someone's fantastic

00:37:49.240 on it.

00:37:49.580 I heard,

00:37:50.420 I can't remember

00:37:50.900 where I first heard

00:37:51.700 Philip Pilkington,

00:37:52.980 but I just thought,

00:37:54.480 this guy is right.

00:37:56.300 This guy is incredible.

00:37:58.000 And then you start listening

00:37:59.540 and you get the book

00:38:00.220 and you check it out

00:38:01.180 or like,

00:38:01.620 I remember like hearing

00:38:03.140 Scott Galloway

00:38:03.780 on someone's podcast.

00:38:04.880 It might have been

00:38:05.300 your podcast

00:38:05.920 and thinking.

00:38:07.380 The only interview

00:38:07.920 we've done with him

00:38:08.540 is coming out soon.

00:38:10.040 So we wouldn't have been.

00:38:10.700 Okay,

00:38:11.060 but he's like,

00:38:11.980 maybe Chris.

00:38:12.680 Might have been

00:38:12.920 on Chris Williamson's.

00:38:13.960 I'm just thinking,

00:38:14.520 oh, that's interesting.

00:38:15.320 I wonder what he's got.

00:38:16.140 Yeah.

00:38:16.500 We had a great conversation.

00:38:17.680 I love that.

00:38:18.160 I mean,

00:38:18.340 I, you know,

00:38:19.040 but I'm not that busy.

00:38:20.000 I mean,

00:38:20.120 I'm in comedy.

00:38:20.860 So it's,

00:38:21.440 it's quite an easy business

00:38:22.740 in a sense

00:38:23.300 because you know

00:38:24.760 what the work is.

00:38:25.940 You know,

00:38:27.280 okay,

00:38:27.980 I'm going to need jokes

00:38:28.840 and any success I have

00:38:31.020 is a lagging indicator

00:38:32.500 of work I did

00:38:33.360 three years ago.

00:38:34.040 So you write the jokes

00:38:36.940 and you,

00:38:37.920 you sort of split test

00:38:39.920 everything with an audience

00:38:41.140 and you see what works

00:38:42.560 and you put show together

00:38:44.200 and I don't know,

00:38:45.840 I'm like,

00:38:46.180 I'm in,

00:38:46.460 I'm in the service industry

00:38:47.380 and I make something

00:38:48.720 that people like.

00:38:49.620 I make them happy.

00:38:50.940 They don't remember the jokes.

00:38:52.420 They just remember

00:38:52.880 how you made them feel.

00:38:53.760 That's very true.

00:38:54.240 So that thing of like

00:38:54.940 going like tonight

00:38:55.760 in Brighton,

00:38:56.240 I've got 4,000 people

00:38:57.300 coming out,

00:38:57.740 but it's an advert

00:38:58.460 for the next time

00:38:59.480 I'm in Brighton.

00:39:00.260 I've already got the money

00:39:01.080 for this evening.

00:39:01.720 I'm fine.

00:39:03.020 Checks landed.

00:39:04.040 We just stand

00:39:04.920 and knew nothing.

00:39:05.500 And then it's that thing

00:39:06.180 of like the,

00:39:06.780 the thing that's taken off

00:39:07.940 for me the last year

00:39:08.820 and it was a really

00:39:09.220 interesting lesson in life

00:39:10.280 of the difference

00:39:11.220 between jealousy

00:39:12.020 and envy.

00:39:13.900 Like I think jealousy,

00:39:15.380 the politics of envy,

00:39:17.480 you know,

00:39:18.120 it's,

00:39:18.580 it depends

00:39:19.020 whichever word

00:39:20.020 you want to use,

00:39:21.040 but one of them's about

00:39:22.040 not wanting someone else

00:39:23.080 to have something

00:39:23.680 and one of them

00:39:25.460 is about telling you

00:39:27.680 what you want,

00:39:28.720 telling you what to aim for.

00:39:30.560 And I've always thought

00:39:31.040 like wishing wells work,

00:39:32.980 but not in the way

00:39:33.800 that people think.

00:39:35.020 Not the magic of,

00:39:36.960 you know,

00:39:37.200 you get the wish,

00:39:38.560 but making the wish,

00:39:40.580 knowing what you want

00:39:41.560 is such a huge thing

00:39:42.720 in life.

00:39:43.060 And I watched a couple

00:39:44.420 of guys,

00:39:45.140 it's about 18 months

00:39:45.880 ago now,

00:39:46.700 I was watching like

00:39:47.280 Matt Reif

00:39:47.860 and Andrew Schultz.

00:39:51.280 I was watching them

00:39:52.160 and like,

00:39:53.180 and looking at them

00:39:53.960 playing arenas

00:39:54.720 and thinking,

00:39:55.800 wow,

00:39:56.100 these guys are like

00:39:56.780 incredible.

00:39:59.080 And then there was like

00:40:00.300 a little bit of like

00:40:01.720 green eyed monster

00:40:02.740 going,

00:40:04.100 what?

00:40:05.340 I'm a good comic,

00:40:06.540 I put a shift in,

00:40:08.060 this is,

00:40:08.680 why are they?

00:40:09.400 And then I thought,

00:40:10.220 oh,

00:40:10.420 look at how they're

00:40:11.020 using social media.

00:40:12.360 Look at how they're

00:40:13.600 putting their stuff

00:40:14.240 out there.

00:40:15.160 And then I hired

00:40:16.200 a videographer

00:40:16.780 and I started

00:40:17.780 filming things

00:40:18.420 the same way

00:40:18.900 that they did.

00:40:19.920 I basically said,

00:40:20.600 okay,

00:40:20.840 let's do that.

00:40:21.780 And then started

00:40:22.420 filming crowd work.

00:40:23.520 And it had a real,

00:40:24.860 it's had a huge effect.

00:40:25.540 I see your clips

00:40:26.180 all the time now

00:40:27.200 because of it.

00:40:27.820 It's really fun.

00:40:28.680 It's a really fun,

00:40:29.540 and it's a really fun

00:40:30.260 mix of like going,

00:40:31.680 because I'm very careful

00:40:32.380 to like put out like,

00:40:33.640 it's 10 funny

00:40:34.480 to one serious

00:40:35.300 is my ratio

00:40:36.560 of going.

00:40:37.620 But actually,

00:40:38.100 that's kind of

00:40:38.560 in the show as well.

00:40:39.580 I like to have

00:40:40.300 a few serious moments.

00:40:41.840 It's really nice

00:40:42.560 to have that light and shade

00:40:43.500 and for it to feel

00:40:44.820 like a live event

00:40:45.620 where this is just

00:40:46.760 happening here.

00:40:47.800 This is something

00:40:48.300 that we're all experiencing

00:40:49.280 in the moment.

00:40:50.480 And the screens

00:40:51.980 are not a good proxy.

00:40:53.200 Like the idea of going,

00:40:54.160 the clips are great

00:40:54.940 and they're fun,

00:40:56.140 and I bet you smile

00:40:57.340 when you watch them.

00:40:58.480 But you come and see a show

00:40:59.480 and you laugh

00:41:00.220 and you release

00:41:01.180 that dopamine

00:41:01.680 and it's a,

00:41:02.760 the great illusion

00:41:04.260 is I'm the only one

00:41:05.120 performing.

00:41:06.180 Actually,

00:41:06.820 everyone in the auditorium

00:41:07.960 is,

00:41:08.240 it's a performative thing

00:41:09.220 being in an audience.

00:41:10.620 And everything we care about,

00:41:12.900 I mean,

00:41:13.040 I've talked about this before,

00:41:13.860 but everything we care

00:41:14.660 about is play.

00:41:16.080 Everything,

00:41:16.660 whether it's sports

00:41:17.600 or comedy

00:41:18.800 or theater

00:41:19.800 or movies,

00:41:20.920 sitcoms,

00:41:21.640 this,

00:41:23.000 podcasts,

00:41:24.180 it's a spirit of play

00:41:25.300 that we're sitting down,

00:41:26.080 we're playing.

00:41:27.140 And I think our whole society

00:41:28.540 is built on that.

00:41:29.660 I think play

00:41:30.260 is upstream

00:41:31.020 of communication,

00:41:32.040 of cooperation.

00:41:33.620 And cooperation

00:41:34.320 is what it's all built on,

00:41:35.300 that famous,

00:41:35.860 you know,

00:41:36.340 drop one guy in the jungle,

00:41:38.120 you fed the animals,

00:41:39.160 drop ten guys,

00:41:40.480 you got the apex predator.

00:41:42.140 We're great

00:41:42.840 when we're together

00:41:43.500 and we learn

00:41:44.380 how to do that

00:41:44.980 through playing.

00:41:46.100 And I think,

00:41:47.000 actually,

00:41:47.280 the social media stuff

00:41:48.240 has been a real,

00:41:49.840 we're not playing

00:41:51.080 in the same way.

00:41:52.500 Like there's,

00:41:53.560 social media weirdly

00:41:54.780 just lacks

00:41:55.540 the social.

00:41:57.300 It's a very profound point.

00:41:59.160 I remember when I was

00:41:59.880 drama teaching

00:42:00.640 and seeing social media

00:42:02.740 come in,

00:42:03.300 we talked about this

00:42:04.160 with Jonathan Haidt,

00:42:05.340 year on year,

00:42:06.920 because a lot of

00:42:07.800 what you do

00:42:08.280 as a drama teacher

00:42:09.140 is you teach kids

00:42:10.400 how to do group

00:42:11.140 improvisational work.

00:42:12.780 So you give them

00:42:13.240 a stimulus

00:42:13.720 and you ask them

00:42:14.720 to create performance

00:42:15.380 around the stimulus,

00:42:16.120 whatever the stimulus

00:42:16.660 may be,

00:42:17.040 a painting or an event

00:42:18.660 or a prop,

00:42:19.460 for instance.

00:42:19.920 The yes and.

00:42:20.780 Yeah, exactly.

00:42:21.840 And so the kids go away,

00:42:23.020 they get 20 minutes

00:42:23.760 and you give them

00:42:25.020 the tools in order

00:42:25.880 to be creative

00:42:26.540 and they put on

00:42:27.080 a performance.

00:42:28.320 And year upon year,

00:42:29.560 I saw the kids

00:42:30.620 become less able

00:42:32.340 to do that

00:42:32.900 because as social media

00:42:34.560 came in

00:42:35.060 and they were more

00:42:35.600 on their phones,

00:42:36.160 they were less able

00:42:36.740 to listen,

00:42:37.220 they were less able

00:42:38.980 to disagree,

00:42:40.420 they were less resilient

00:42:41.860 and ultimately

00:42:43.980 they were more

00:42:44.960 focused on self.

00:42:47.180 And when you take

00:42:48.640 all of those things in,

00:42:49.700 you're not going to be able

00:42:50.840 to work cohesively

00:42:52.040 as a group

00:42:52.580 and ultimately

00:42:53.540 what you produce

00:42:54.380 isn't going to be as strong.

00:42:55.980 Because when people go to us

00:42:57.200 about trigonometry,

00:42:58.040 why is it successful?

00:42:58.940 It's successful

00:42:59.600 because it's the two of us

00:43:01.200 and it's the team.

00:43:02.860 And the moment

00:43:03.520 any one person goes,

00:43:04.680 it's all about me,

00:43:05.500 it's over,

00:43:06.200 it's finished.

00:43:07.040 It's like any team.

00:43:08.280 Yeah.

00:43:08.680 Well, that's,

00:43:09.260 I mean,

00:43:09.520 it's kind of a worry,

00:43:10.420 isn't it?

00:43:10.700 That that's kind of

00:43:11.480 the way things are going.

00:43:13.380 That people,

00:43:14.000 they're not just working

00:43:15.020 from home,

00:43:16.100 they're getting food

00:43:16.860 delivered to their houses

00:43:17.780 and they're watching things

00:43:20.540 at home,

00:43:20.880 not going to the cinema.

00:43:22.300 I mean,

00:43:22.520 like you were saying,

00:43:23.400 I got a movie out.

00:43:24.340 I, you know,

00:43:25.180 made a movie

00:43:25.640 with some friends

00:43:26.200 and we wrote

00:43:27.780 this thing together.

00:43:28.940 I wrote it with

00:43:29.380 my younger brother,

00:43:30.260 Patrick,

00:43:30.720 and a guy's called

00:43:31.800 the Dawson Brothers,

00:43:32.600 great comedy writers,

00:43:33.340 and we wrote this movie.

00:43:34.880 What's the movie?

00:43:35.340 It's called

00:43:36.120 Fackham Hall.

00:43:38.260 It's a good title,

00:43:39.240 Fackham Hall.

00:43:39.860 But it's basically,

00:43:40.640 I suppose,

00:43:41.320 like movie maths wise,

00:43:42.520 we just kind of went,

00:43:43.220 right, okay,

00:43:44.060 so we've got,

00:43:45.280 we do period drama

00:43:46.360 very well in the UK,

00:43:47.640 but it's kind of

00:43:48.660 slightly pompous

00:43:49.600 and we do comedy

00:43:50.460 very well

00:43:50.980 and everyone loves

00:43:53.040 Richard Curtis.

00:43:54.080 So we've basically

00:43:55.280 done a Downton Abbey

00:43:56.520 meets Airplane

00:43:57.400 and we've sprinkled

00:43:59.040 a little bit of like,

00:44:00.160 Richard Curtis

00:44:00.580 is just like,

00:44:01.140 you go,

00:44:01.760 you know,

00:44:01.880 that kind of rom-com thing.

00:44:02.820 It's a really fun movie.

00:44:05.340 I mean,

00:44:05.480 I'm not like,

00:44:06.060 I'm not a grifter.

00:44:07.220 Like,

00:44:07.440 I would never sell something

00:44:08.780 that I wouldn't consume

00:44:10.180 and I go,

00:44:11.320 well,

00:44:11.520 this is,

00:44:12.040 I would go and see this movie.

00:44:13.300 This is a fun

00:44:14.140 date night,

00:44:15.660 like romp,

00:44:17.060 90 minutes,

00:44:17.600 you don't have to think

00:44:17.960 about anything else.

00:44:18.700 It's really silly jokes

00:44:19.400 and I'm kind of,

00:44:21.360 I suppose it's what's missing

00:44:22.600 in our culture.

00:44:23.340 Like,

00:44:23.540 people are,

00:44:23.960 not that my movies

00:44:25.100 are the answer,

00:44:26.640 but I want more movies

00:44:28.180 for grown-ups

00:44:28.860 that are funny

00:44:29.360 in the cinema.

00:44:30.200 I want people

00:44:30.840 to go to the cinema.

00:44:31.840 I want people

00:44:32.300 to see it in the cinema

00:44:33.540 with other people there.

00:44:35.040 That's the aim

00:44:35.880 of this thing.

00:44:37.000 I mean,

00:44:37.220 great if it's a hit

00:44:38.000 online,

00:44:39.340 down the line,

00:44:40.300 but kind of,

00:44:41.560 there's a lot of stuff

00:44:42.200 online.

00:44:43.020 I want people

00:44:43.580 to go to the,

00:44:44.380 to have that experience

00:44:46.440 of going out

00:44:47.560 and seeing something

00:44:48.160 because it seems

00:44:49.080 so valuable to me.

00:44:50.400 That's a very good point

00:44:51.580 and it's interesting,

00:44:52.520 I couldn't work out

00:44:54.780 why I was so obsessed

00:44:55.400 with it,

00:44:55.620 but I joined the gym

00:44:56.280 recently,

00:44:57.100 a different one,

00:44:58.640 and it's a fairly small one

00:45:01.580 so there's not a huge

00:45:02.880 number of members.

00:45:04.220 And because of that,

00:45:05.140 particularly like

00:45:05.720 in the spa area

00:45:06.360 where I go to the sauna

00:45:07.420 a lot,

00:45:07.860 et cetera,

00:45:08.660 everyone is super chatty

00:45:09.740 and super friendly.

00:45:11.160 And I've actually found

00:45:12.300 that initially a bit startling,

00:45:14.380 but then I've really,

00:45:15.520 really enjoyed it

00:45:16.260 in the way that

00:45:16.780 I just never imagined.

00:45:17.840 I am someone who used

00:45:18.660 to go to the sauna

00:45:19.460 to be by myself.

00:45:21.080 I'd have my headphones in,

00:45:23.040 blah, blah,

00:45:23.440 I wear the Russian sauna hat

00:45:24.980 on my head,

00:45:25.680 blah, blah, blah.

00:45:26.200 I'm with you.

00:45:26.800 But now I'm the opposite.

00:45:28.140 I'm like,

00:45:28.820 oh, there's a person here,

00:45:29.920 let's chat.

00:45:31.000 And I think it's partly

00:45:31.960 because we are just

00:45:33.420 all actually deeply craving

00:45:35.180 that human connection

00:45:36.360 because we feel

00:45:38.480 like we're connected,

00:45:39.700 but at the same time

00:45:40.460 we're incredibly disconnected

00:45:41.680 by these devices

00:45:42.720 in our hands.

00:45:43.820 Yeah.

00:45:44.700 Tim Minchin said something,

00:45:45.880 I mean,

00:45:46.060 Tim Minchin said something

00:45:46.760 brilliant isn't unusual.

00:45:48.120 He's often saying,

00:45:48.760 he's always walking around

00:45:49.920 saying brilliant things.

00:45:51.020 But he said this thing

00:45:51.980 about road rage.

00:45:56.040 If I bump into you

00:45:57.040 on the street,

00:45:58.320 ah, okay,

00:45:59.100 sorry, man.

00:46:00.480 My mistake.

00:46:01.940 But people tend to be cool

00:46:03.060 if you bump into someone

00:46:04.040 on the street.

00:46:04.840 If someone cuts you up

00:46:06.160 in traffic,

00:46:08.980 like,

00:46:09.280 everyone's going,

00:46:10.500 you know,

00:46:10.900 people go nuts

00:46:11.600 and it's road rage

00:46:12.260 and that's just two screens.

00:46:14.040 And then we multiply that

00:46:15.460 by a billion.

00:46:17.380 Yeah.

00:46:17.560 You know,

00:46:18.040 and everyone's kind of

00:46:18.760 talking and things

00:46:19.560 and,

00:46:20.080 you know,

00:46:20.280 I don't know.

00:46:20.880 It's,

00:46:21.320 it's,

00:46:22.580 it's not great for the kids.

00:46:24.800 Not great for us.

00:46:25.660 It's really not great for us.

00:46:26.820 It's actually one of the things

00:46:27.800 that I love this podcast.

00:46:29.580 It's because

00:46:30.380 I get to sit down

00:46:32.160 with my friend,

00:46:33.260 talk to another friend

00:46:34.260 and we have

00:46:35.600 a laugh

00:46:36.840 and a good time

00:46:37.580 and I learn something

00:46:38.800 or

00:46:39.640 I have my ideas challenged

00:46:42.120 or I push myself

00:46:43.620 and all of these experiences

00:46:45.580 where in real life

00:46:47.940 I don't get to do that

00:46:49.700 nearly as much

00:46:50.480 as I should.

00:46:51.640 Yeah.

00:46:52.140 Where's the space

00:46:52.880 for that now?

00:46:53.760 You know,

00:46:53.960 because people aren't going out

00:46:55.040 in the same way

00:46:55.640 that they used to.

00:46:57.140 You know,

00:46:57.620 I don't know what,

00:46:58.700 I don't think we've recovered

00:46:59.980 socially from COVID

00:47:01.060 and that lockdown

00:47:02.420 from that isolation.

00:47:03.920 You know,

00:47:04.080 it's,

00:47:04.280 it's,

00:47:04.700 it's tough

00:47:05.220 and to find your,

00:47:06.500 your group of friends

00:47:07.460 is like,

00:47:08.000 it's a difficult thing.

00:47:08.700 There's a lot of people

00:47:09.180 that are incredibly isolated.

00:47:11.560 It's difficult.

00:47:12.640 You know,

00:47:13.240 but Eric Weinstein

00:47:14.820 has,

00:47:15.580 I was talking to him

00:47:16.680 about this,

00:47:17.100 about the loneliness epidemic

00:47:18.140 and he said,

00:47:19.140 one of the most dangerous

00:47:20.520 things about cancellation

00:47:21.400 that people never talk about

00:47:22.880 is the fact that

00:47:24.460 when a lot of people

00:47:25.480 get cancelled,

00:47:26.140 you remove their friends

00:47:27.080 from them

00:47:27.480 and at that point,

00:47:28.980 human beings become

00:47:29.880 very dangerous

00:47:30.640 because they're like,

00:47:32.120 well,

00:47:32.460 there's no way back now,

00:47:34.040 so,

00:47:34.920 what do you want me to do?

00:47:36.340 Well,

00:47:36.560 it is,

00:47:37.020 I mean,

00:47:37.240 that's,

00:47:37.980 yeah,

00:47:38.400 it's a terrible thing

00:47:39.000 about cancellation

00:47:39.580 that,

00:47:40.140 because most of it happens

00:47:41.020 not to famous comedians

00:47:42.580 that's like,

00:47:42.960 really?

00:47:43.260 Don't worry about me,

00:47:45.180 I'll be all right.

00:47:46.180 It's happened a few times now.

00:47:48.500 Have you ever seen that meme

00:47:49.760 of the guy with the noose

00:47:50.720 around his neck

00:47:51.300 standing next to another guy

00:47:52.460 and he goes,

00:47:52.800 you're the first time?

00:47:54.300 Yeah,

00:47:55.460 that's what it feels like.

00:47:56.540 That's great.

00:47:57.220 I haven't seen that.

00:47:57.860 But the idea of going,

00:47:59.380 you don't invite friends around

00:48:00.800 when your house is on fire.

00:48:02.660 Yeah.

00:48:02.960 And when you get cancelled,

00:48:03.760 it feels like your house

00:48:04.440 is on fire.

00:48:05.260 Yeah.

00:48:05.400 So it's difficult

00:48:06.640 for people to reach out.

00:48:07.480 But most cancellations are,

00:48:08.540 it's regular people

00:48:09.380 that have,

00:48:10.080 you know,

00:48:10.320 misspoke or said something wrong

00:48:11.680 or whatever,

00:48:12.000 and you go,

00:48:12.880 and it's,

00:48:14.320 we don't have,

00:48:16.460 you know,

00:48:16.720 we're not good at dealing

00:48:17.500 with that.

00:48:17.900 We're not good at,

00:48:18.560 there's certain things

00:48:19.060 that religion does much better

00:48:20.300 than the secular world.

00:48:22.540 Yes.

00:48:22.700 You know,

00:48:23.240 so forgiveness

00:48:24.440 and,

00:48:25.460 you know,

00:48:26.280 shunning and shaming,

00:48:27.280 we've nailed online.

00:48:29.220 But it's,

00:48:29.960 we haven't nailed forgiveness

00:48:31.480 and welcoming people back

00:48:32.640 and,

00:48:33.700 you know,

00:48:34.040 letting people get on with stuff.

00:48:35.140 And it's also that,

00:48:36.940 that community element

00:48:37.920 that we just need.

00:48:38.860 Like,

00:48:39.220 if you're going through

00:48:40.020 a really hard time,

00:48:41.820 it's such a human bomb

00:48:44.560 to sit down with someone

00:48:45.980 and just go,

00:48:46.420 mate,

00:48:47.440 I'll tell you,

00:48:48.120 it's just rough.

00:48:49.300 It's just,

00:48:50.040 we need that.

00:48:50.960 And if you remove that,

00:48:52.300 then I think that's when people

00:48:54.040 get really desperate.

00:48:55.900 Hmm.

00:48:56.440 Yeah.

00:48:56.880 Yeah.

00:48:57.740 It's,

00:48:58.140 it's friendships.

00:48:59.320 It's,

00:48:59.760 it's that thing.

00:49:00.320 And it's,

00:49:00.580 it's also,

00:49:01.100 you know,

00:49:01.800 relationships.

00:49:03.100 You know,

00:49:03.620 your,

00:49:03.960 your relationship with your other,

00:49:04.940 I would say,

00:49:06.400 okay,

00:49:06.660 this is a guess,

00:49:08.000 but I'd say 90% of arguments

00:49:09.680 between couples

00:49:10.580 are one person saying

00:49:12.200 to another person,

00:49:13.260 you are not enough people.

00:49:15.460 Because we expect our other half

00:49:16.720 to be everything to us

00:49:18.160 in the modern world.

00:49:19.880 And actually,

00:49:20.900 it takes a village.

00:49:22.320 Not just to raise a kid,

00:49:23.680 just to live a life.

00:49:24.760 It takes a village.

00:49:25.900 You need your friends

00:49:26.640 and you need your colleagues

00:49:27.520 and you need,

00:49:28.040 you need people

00:49:29.060 that you see all the time.

00:49:30.880 And,

00:49:31.360 you know,

00:49:31.940 it feels like you could

00:49:32.780 go through life

00:49:33.440 and not have that.

00:49:34.480 It's so funny you say that

00:49:35.640 because I,

00:49:36.260 I,

00:49:36.460 I think I've told this

00:49:37.540 to people,

00:49:38.340 I've said this to people privately,

00:49:40.600 but it was only,

00:49:42.300 it wasn't until my son was born

00:49:43.940 and it had been around

00:49:45.440 for a while

00:49:45.780 that I suddenly,

00:49:46.780 I found myself,

00:49:47.540 I never in a million years

00:49:48.960 would have uttered the phrase,

00:49:50.040 my in-laws are coming to stay

00:49:51.340 for a month,

00:49:52.200 thank God.

00:49:53.380 Like that never would have

00:49:54.580 occurred to me before.

00:49:55.840 Because the difficulty level

00:49:57.760 goes up

00:49:58.420 and you suddenly realize

00:49:59.900 what like,

00:50:01.100 what family's for

00:50:02.180 in a way.

00:50:03.240 Yeah.

00:50:03.560 Because it's about,

00:50:05.380 you know,

00:50:05.920 up until I've.

00:50:06.660 It's very interesting though

00:50:07.680 that you say family

00:50:08.380 because I think a lot of people

00:50:09.880 ask themselves

00:50:10.600 in the world that we live in,

00:50:11.900 do I want kids or not?

00:50:13.680 And I think the,

00:50:15.700 part of the reason

00:50:16.100 I don't want taxation

00:50:17.020 for people in their 20s

00:50:18.140 is because I want them

00:50:19.200 to be able to buy houses

00:50:20.080 and I want them to be able

00:50:21.740 to have kids.

00:50:23.280 And I think if you ask people

00:50:24.360 do I want kids or not,

00:50:25.100 it's like,

00:50:25.440 well maybe I want kids,

00:50:26.460 maybe I don't want kids.

00:50:27.320 I mean the issue is

00:50:28.440 everything great about

00:50:29.560 having kids is immeasurable

00:50:31.380 and everything that's

00:50:32.920 terrible about having kids

00:50:34.160 there's a metric for.

00:50:35.880 You know,

00:50:36.240 you can wear something

00:50:36.980 on your wrist

00:50:37.340 that will tell you

00:50:37.740 you didn't get enough sleep

00:50:38.580 and you will know

00:50:39.680 that you didn't have

00:50:40.240 enough time

00:50:40.740 and that you didn't

00:50:41.260 see your friends

00:50:41.740 and that you didn't

00:50:42.220 get to watch the TV show

00:50:43.260 and there's lots of things

00:50:45.200 you can measure

00:50:45.600 that are terrible

00:50:46.120 and all of the good things

00:50:47.420 are the smile,

00:50:49.740 the thing,

00:50:50.100 the connection,

00:50:50.780 the big things.

00:50:51.840 But it's,

00:50:52.380 I suppose it's

00:50:53.460 resume,

00:50:53.960 points that you lose

00:50:56.700 and you gain

00:50:58.240 eulogy points

00:50:59.160 and ultimately

00:51:01.080 eulogy points

00:51:01.900 is what you want.

00:51:03.200 You know,

00:51:03.420 it's that thing of like

00:51:04.020 you go,

00:51:04.340 you spend a lot of time

00:51:05.220 working towards

00:51:06.160 the perfect CV,

00:51:08.240 the perfect resume,

00:51:09.120 but eh,

00:51:10.380 goes to nothing.

00:51:10.980 What do you want people

00:51:11.760 to say when you're gone?

00:51:13.300 And it's like,

00:51:13.880 I'm not a religious man,

00:51:15.200 but I think there's

00:51:16.380 something about having kids.

00:51:17.960 It was,

00:51:18.240 Eric Weinstein said this

00:51:19.100 to me at lunch.

00:51:20.100 He said,

00:51:20.480 I was talking about

00:51:22.240 how much I'm enjoying

00:51:22.920 being a parent

00:51:23.540 and he said,

00:51:25.680 as he does,

00:51:27.160 he silenced and he went,

00:51:28.460 you will die

00:51:29.440 and you will be reborn

00:51:32.700 as someone else

00:51:33.460 and you will love them.

00:51:35.740 And I went,

00:51:36.080 oh,

00:51:36.400 it's like a bulb went off.

00:51:37.540 I went,

00:51:37.660 oh right,

00:51:37.980 I kind of get

00:51:38.500 what reincarnation is now.

00:51:40.100 There is an afterlife

00:51:41.340 and it's the kids.

00:51:44.160 That's it.

00:51:44.820 That's the whole thing.

00:51:45.740 That's the,

00:51:46.320 that's the purpose of this

00:51:48.200 and you go,

00:51:48.940 once you have that

00:51:49.600 and that's,

00:51:50.040 that's a gift.

00:51:50.760 Now,

00:51:51.060 the idea that there are people

00:51:52.260 that are,

00:51:53.740 if you want to have kids,

00:51:55.600 sorry,

00:51:55.920 if you don't want to have kids,

00:51:57.080 I think that's absolutely fine.

00:51:58.500 Great.

00:51:58.860 Make that decision.

00:51:59.620 Great.

00:52:00.240 But my worry is people

00:52:01.180 that are involuntary childless

00:52:04.700 and we talk a lot about women

00:52:06.980 that don't have kids

00:52:08.760 and it's involuntary childless.

00:52:10.480 We don't talk a lot

00:52:11.140 about the guys

00:52:11.740 and I think the sadness

00:52:13.440 is the same.

00:52:14.580 I want that for people.

00:52:16.400 So,

00:52:16.480 and how do we create a world,

00:52:18.400 a society,

00:52:19.320 where that can happen?

00:52:21.220 And I think we need to change

00:52:22.520 certain things about how we operate.

00:52:24.860 You know,

00:52:25.040 it's like the,

00:52:25.560 the house building thing

00:52:27.460 is really interesting

00:52:28.500 because you go,

00:52:29.300 why is China able,

00:52:30.600 someone wrote a brilliant book

00:52:31.440 about this recently.

00:52:33.040 I just started about how,

00:52:34.920 why are the Chinese so good

00:52:36.120 at building

00:52:37.940 and we're so bad?

00:52:40.380 Well,

00:52:40.740 everyone in the West

00:52:41.640 in politics,

00:52:43.640 everyone in America

00:52:44.960 in politics

00:52:45.600 went to law school.

00:52:47.100 Most of the guys

00:52:47.960 in Westminster

00:52:48.840 lawyers

00:52:50.060 and in China

00:52:52.340 everyone's a civil engineer.

00:52:54.140 They don't think anything

00:52:54.800 can't be solved

00:52:55.480 with an engineering project.

00:52:57.400 Very different mindset.

00:52:58.500 Yeah.

00:52:59.020 Right?

00:52:59.300 So we just put up barriers

00:53:00.960 and admin

00:53:01.760 and rules and laws

00:53:03.480 and we need to get rid

00:53:04.520 of some of those.

00:53:05.500 We need to,

00:53:06.200 you know,

00:53:06.380 I care about the green belt.

00:53:08.200 I do.

00:53:08.500 I want,

00:53:08.800 I want the countryside

00:53:09.720 to flourish

00:53:11.140 and I care about bees

00:53:13.800 and all of that stuff.

00:53:17.220 But trust me,

00:53:18.060 much fucking less

00:53:19.280 than I care about people.

00:53:20.440 Right?

00:53:20.800 Yeah.

00:53:21.160 I care more about people

00:53:22.340 than any of that stuff.

00:53:23.540 Yeah.

00:53:24.120 And then you,

00:53:24.720 and you know,

00:53:25.420 certain things you just,

00:53:26.480 I don't know,

00:53:26.900 the big swings in politics

00:53:28.240 they're not taking.

00:53:29.620 That energy seems to be

00:53:30.560 the big thing

00:53:31.360 they're not taking seriously

00:53:32.240 because you go,

00:53:33.100 it's built into everything else.

00:53:34.920 So it's just naturally inflationary.

00:53:36.740 We're paying four times more

00:53:37.780 for our energy

00:53:38.460 than anyone else

00:53:39.620 because we're making,

00:53:40.700 because we,

00:53:41.080 we exported our sins.

00:53:44.280 We,

00:53:44.680 we basically went,

00:53:45.480 okay,

00:53:45.720 we're not going to mine for coal.

00:53:47.440 We'll shut down

00:53:47.860 all the coal mines.

00:53:49.280 Open them up again.

00:53:50.480 Get the northerners working,

00:53:51.700 Jimmy.

00:53:52.140 Yeah.

00:53:52.580 Well,

00:53:52.860 you know,

00:53:53.160 listen,

00:53:53.400 I'm sure there's,

00:53:54.240 I'm sure there's,

00:53:55.340 there's people

00:53:55.720 that would object to that

00:53:56.820 and you go,

00:53:57.380 but on the,

00:53:58.040 on the longer term,

00:53:58.980 I would go,

00:53:59.660 well,

00:53:59.780 that should be what pays

00:54:00.960 for a nuclear revolution.

00:54:03.080 I think all Britain can be

00:54:04.320 is an example

00:54:04.980 to other nations.

00:54:05.920 We're 1% of global output

00:54:08.340 of carbon.

00:54:10.540 So whatever we do

00:54:11.840 is not going to make

00:54:12.300 any difference at all.

00:54:13.680 And I don't think

00:54:14.460 we can stand here

00:54:15.160 and say to the third world

00:54:16.300 or whatever we now

00:54:17.860 call the third world.

00:54:21.560 But that thing of like,

00:54:23.140 you go,

00:54:23.600 whatever,

00:54:23.920 whatever we do,

00:54:24.560 you can't ask those people

00:54:25.700 not to want to be

00:54:27.640 prosperous.

00:54:30.120 Yeah.

00:54:30.620 You know,

00:54:31.120 because there's two

00:54:31.540 different things here.

00:54:32.200 There's the politics of envy,

00:54:33.220 which is about

00:54:33.840 the inequality

00:54:34.920 in our society,

00:54:35.800 which has never been bigger.

00:54:38.180 And then there's also

00:54:39.160 absolute poverty.

00:54:41.200 And I'm much more interested

00:54:42.360 in solving absolute poverty

00:54:44.140 than the politics of envy

00:54:47.920 because we can't.

00:54:49.260 Some people are going to be rich,

00:54:50.040 some people are going to be poor.

00:54:50.800 Okay, fine.

00:54:51.380 But I want everyone

00:54:52.280 to get to a minimum standard

00:54:53.520 where they're looked after,

00:54:55.180 where they have a roof

00:54:55.900 over their head

00:54:56.520 and they have good schools,

00:54:58.020 good medical,

00:54:58.840 and they have the hope

00:55:00.300 of having kids in the future.

00:55:01.680 That just seems like

00:55:03.120 that's the minimum standard

00:55:04.780 and we should have that

00:55:05.600 globally.

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00:56:35.560 And what we need to do

00:56:37.200 and what I think

00:56:37.840 you're talking about

00:56:38.500 is we need to make

00:56:39.220 young people

00:56:39.700 more of a priority

00:56:40.460 in our politics

00:56:41.220 and we simply don't.

00:56:42.980 Yeah, I mean, look,

00:56:43.680 there's a thing about like,

00:56:44.980 if you have a conversation

00:56:45.720 with someone about immigration,

00:56:46.940 they'll often bring up,

00:56:48.480 yeah, but look at all

00:56:49.080 the doctors and nurses

00:56:49.840 that we bring up

00:56:50.380 for the NHS

00:56:50.820 and I go,

00:56:51.640 whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:56:53.220 I'll stop you there.

00:56:54.540 That's a terrible thing

00:56:55.340 to do, right?

00:56:56.060 On two reasons, right?

00:56:58.160 First, the people here

00:56:59.120 that are from overseas

00:57:00.600 working in the NHS,

00:57:02.200 incredible, right?

00:57:03.360 And we need them.

00:57:04.760 But we only need them

00:57:05.760 because we haven't made

00:57:06.720 a good decision

00:57:07.280 at the moment, right?

00:57:08.540 So the good decision

00:57:09.520 I would make

00:57:10.000 is I would say

00:57:10.540 medical schools

00:57:11.320 should be not a quota

00:57:12.720 of 11,000 people a year,

00:57:14.560 which is what it is currently.

00:57:15.700 It should be a standard.

00:57:16.540 And if you reach

00:57:17.720 that standard academically,

00:57:19.580 you go to medical school.

00:57:20.960 Don't even have an interview.

00:57:22.440 If you're not very personable,

00:57:23.940 you can work in the morgue.

00:57:26.100 Fucking worry about it.

00:57:27.180 If you reach that standard.

00:57:28.440 Because there's two things

00:57:29.420 going on.

00:57:29.820 One, we're robbing young people

00:57:31.160 of their dream

00:57:32.520 of being doctors and nurses,

00:57:34.300 OK?

00:57:34.760 Because we're importing

00:57:36.280 cheaper ones from overseas.

00:57:38.280 That's cheaper

00:57:38.860 not to grow them yourself.

00:57:40.400 Yeah.

00:57:40.900 But ultimately,

00:57:42.160 what's society for?

00:57:43.280 Cheaper in the short term.

00:57:45.040 But in the long term,

00:57:46.580 you bring people in,

00:57:47.920 doctors from the third world.

00:57:49.760 If you bring in a doctor

00:57:50.580 from, I don't know,

00:57:52.280 Bangladesh, Pakistan,

00:57:54.420 Afghanistan,

00:57:54.920 wherever you're bringing them from,

00:57:56.660 it's not because

00:57:57.680 they've run out

00:57:58.120 of sick people there.

00:57:59.800 It's not because

00:58:00.620 they've gone,

00:58:01.280 do you know what?

00:58:01.620 Everyone seems fine.

00:58:02.780 Everyone's really

00:58:03.200 taking care of themselves here.

00:58:04.700 I guess we should go somewhere.

00:58:05.740 Where are there sick people?

00:58:06.560 The UK are here.

00:58:07.660 It's not that.

00:58:08.700 So you go,

00:58:09.140 it's two things.

00:58:10.060 Those doctors are needed there.

00:58:12.140 We need our,

00:58:13.320 you know,

00:58:13.540 to train young people here

00:58:14.660 to do something.

00:58:15.800 And the idea that we go,

00:58:16.780 we're not,

00:58:17.280 and you want to expand that?

00:58:18.540 You go,

00:58:18.840 OK, well,

00:58:19.300 I guess,

00:58:20.300 I guess maybe

00:58:21.260 let's take some

00:58:22.640 of gender studies budget away.

00:58:24.700 If it's,

00:58:25.420 if it's not,

00:58:27.260 if it's not,

00:58:27.880 if it's not growing corn.

00:58:29.580 I'm not saying

00:58:29.960 you get rid of the department,

00:58:30.980 but you get rid of some of it.

00:58:32.380 Yeah.

00:58:33.560 Well,

00:58:34.060 not to inflate

00:58:35.220 our very good friend's

00:58:36.700 ego too much.

00:58:38.560 I took what Eric

00:58:39.640 in the same interview twice,

00:58:41.200 but he,

00:58:41.800 something he mentioned actually,

00:58:42.920 I think it's 100% true,

00:58:43.940 which he said,

00:58:44.400 there's no such thing

00:58:45.280 as a labor shortage

00:58:46.020 in the market economy.

00:58:47.660 If you raise the salaries

00:58:49.280 of doctors enough,

00:58:50.320 and if you create

00:58:51.180 the opportunities

00:58:51.780 for them to be educated

00:58:52.940 into the profession,

00:58:54.480 there's plenty of British people

00:58:55.820 that are capable

00:58:56.280 of being very good doctors

00:58:57.500 and will do so

00:58:58.420 provided the conditions

00:58:59.640 are appropriate.

00:59:01.040 And if you don't import

00:59:02.140 cheaper people from outside,

00:59:04.200 the conditions will be right

00:59:05.320 for British people

00:59:05.940 to become doctors.

00:59:06.740 And then we've solved

00:59:07.820 those two problems

00:59:08.620 that you're identifying.

00:59:09.980 It isn't actually rocket science,

00:59:12.160 but we have become addicted

00:59:13.180 to importing lots of things

00:59:14.620 and also exporting lots of things

00:59:16.060 in a way that just doesn't

00:59:16.920 make any sense,

00:59:17.480 as you said about carbon emissions

00:59:19.160 and everything else.

00:59:20.420 Yeah.

00:59:20.860 Well,

00:59:21.060 I think that thing about the energy

00:59:22.300 being kind of the,

00:59:23.240 energy is prosperity.

00:59:24.600 Yeah.

00:59:24.880 So to get that right

00:59:25.900 seems to be kind of

00:59:26.580 the baseline level,

00:59:27.800 but you kind of need statesmen

00:59:29.340 to do that,

00:59:30.480 not politicians

00:59:31.520 that are on a five-year track

00:59:32.920 because you need people

00:59:34.760 to kind of plan for something

00:59:35.880 and go,

00:59:36.140 right,

00:59:36.540 well,

00:59:36.680 how are we going to build

00:59:37.260 that infrastructure?

00:59:38.340 But I think if you,

00:59:39.120 if you had a government bond

00:59:40.160 that was like,

00:59:40.660 okay,

00:59:40.800 well,

00:59:40.940 we're going to build these plants

00:59:41.960 and you can buy this thing,

00:59:43.560 I think people would be interested in it.

00:59:45.500 Yeah.

00:59:46.180 Yeah.

00:59:46.640 Well,

00:59:47.000 I mean,

00:59:47.720 we've come full circle

00:59:49.040 in the conversation

00:59:49.720 because when you're talking

00:59:50.500 about statesmen,

00:59:51.900 maybe you just need

00:59:52.720 a different elite consensus.

00:59:54.560 I mean,

00:59:54.760 that's really what's been

00:59:55.720 the problem, right?

00:59:56.720 There's been an elite consensus

00:59:58.260 about things like net zero

00:59:59.580 that doesn't work.

01:00:00.500 And if we are at this point

01:00:02.660 when things are changing,

01:00:04.140 then the new elite consensus

01:00:05.300 can be something else.

01:00:06.360 And I think you actually

01:00:07.940 put your finger on it,

01:00:08.820 which is it's about

01:00:09.960 putting human beings

01:00:11.180 and our fellow countrymen

01:00:13.000 and countrywomen first,

01:00:14.400 putting human beings first.

01:00:15.380 Yeah.

01:00:15.920 I mean,

01:00:16.100 I think it's also about like,

01:00:18.360 you know,

01:00:18.580 Derek Parfitt's very good

01:00:19.560 on this,

01:00:20.060 that philosopher.

01:00:22.760 Reasons and Persons

01:00:23.720 was his book.

01:00:24.320 And he talks a lot about

01:00:25.340 how we owe a debt

01:00:27.920 to people temporally

01:00:29.600 and spatially.

01:00:30.760 So everyone in the world,

01:00:31.640 you want everyone to flourish.

01:00:33.540 And you go,

01:00:34.120 but you also,

01:00:34.960 you go,

01:00:35.280 well,

01:00:35.320 this little bit is our bit.

01:00:37.100 How are we going to do that?

01:00:38.100 How are we going to make it?

01:00:39.040 I think not stealing doctors

01:00:40.040 from elsewhere

01:00:40.500 is probably quite a good idea.

01:00:43.580 Go to where you need it.

01:00:45.540 Doctors Without Borders

01:00:46.480 is a wonderful organization,

01:00:48.700 but it shouldn't be necessary

01:00:50.020 if there's doctors

01:00:50.680 over there already.

01:00:52.100 We haven't taken it, right?

01:00:53.580 And temporally,

01:00:54.800 I think we owe people

01:00:55.940 in the future something.

01:00:57.600 And, you know,

01:00:58.760 we owe people the opportunity

01:00:59.780 to be dealt into society,

01:01:02.980 to go,

01:01:03.680 well, you can buy a house

01:01:05.320 and you can do something.

01:01:06.700 I think that some of it

01:01:07.500 is quite sort of classist as well,

01:01:08.720 the idea that everyone

01:01:09.380 needs to go to university.

01:01:11.200 Okay, but do that?

01:01:13.180 Can some people get,

01:01:13.740 can some people do

01:01:14.840 vocational training?

01:01:16.140 And I think the Germans

01:01:17.040 do that really well,

01:01:18.040 the vocational training jobs.

01:01:19.940 And I think increasingly

01:01:20.720 you're going to see that

01:01:21.500 more in America.

01:01:23.400 Well, it brings us to AI as well

01:01:24.760 because, I mean,

01:01:25.740 you talked about

01:01:26.500 what you tell young people nowadays.

01:01:28.160 Francis and I had a conversation,

01:01:29.400 I don't know if you saw

01:01:30.020 kind of wrapping up

01:01:30.720 our America trip.

01:01:31.440 It's one of the things

01:01:32.000 we talked about

01:01:32.600 because, I mean, look,

01:01:34.640 terrifying,

01:01:35.380 I don't know what the right word is

01:01:36.720 because no one knows

01:01:37.600 how it's going to go.

01:01:38.820 But we went to San Francisco,

01:01:40.340 we were there for a few days.

01:01:42.140 A third of the cars

01:01:42.940 on the road

01:01:43.400 don't have a human in them.

01:01:44.940 They're just driving around

01:01:45.820 by themselves.

01:01:46.500 They're waynees.

01:01:47.720 You know,

01:01:48.020 the big AI stuff is moving.

01:01:50.040 I don't know how quickly

01:01:51.120 it will manifest

01:01:52.060 and things that replace

01:01:53.080 human beings,

01:01:53.640 but it's moving pretty quickly.

01:01:54.740 And when we were in New York,

01:01:55.560 I don't know if you saw it

01:01:56.300 when you were there,

01:01:57.320 giant billboard

01:01:58.300 in Times Square

01:01:59.700 or somewhere there

01:02:00.440 saying,

01:02:02.160 stop hiring humans,

01:02:03.100 the age of the AI employees here.

01:02:05.560 And I thought that was

01:02:06.480 pretty badly thought through,

01:02:08.040 personally.

01:02:08.760 Wow.

01:02:09.180 I mean, that's really Orwellian,

01:02:10.380 isn't it?

01:02:10.860 A little bit.

01:02:11.920 And also kind of stupid

01:02:13.120 if you're that company

01:02:14.020 because you're putting,

01:02:14.800 you know,

01:02:15.380 a big mark on yourself,

01:02:17.580 I would think,

01:02:18.220 in many people's eyes.

01:02:19.220 But anyway,

01:02:19.600 my point being,

01:02:21.260 the world is going,

01:02:23.520 I think the vast,

01:02:24.440 vast, vast majority of people,

01:02:25.920 including myself,

01:02:26.840 until we went there,

01:02:27.660 have absolutely no idea

01:02:28.720 what's coming.

01:02:29.840 And I think even now,

01:02:31.520 after having been there,

01:02:32.300 I don't think we know

01:02:33.040 exactly the way

01:02:34.020 it's going to take shape.

01:02:35.160 Well, it's the one rule of history,

01:02:38.080 unintended consequences.

01:02:39.440 Right.

01:02:39.920 So you go,

01:02:40.420 okay, so the people are worried

01:02:41.320 about the wrong thing with AI,

01:02:43.300 in my humble opinion.

01:02:44.600 People are worried

01:02:45.260 about losing their job.

01:02:46.700 Perfectly valid thing

01:02:47.780 to worry about.

01:02:48.780 But I think you're worried

01:02:49.360 about the wrong thing.

01:02:50.600 And there's two other things

01:02:51.300 you could really worry about.

01:02:53.260 Firstly,

01:02:54.180 the cost of running

01:02:55.940 an authoritarian regime

01:02:57.580 like the Stasi

01:02:58.680 has come down

01:02:59.940 by 10 orders of magnitude

01:03:01.520 in the last three years.

01:03:03.520 It used to be,

01:03:04.200 if you had to run the Stasi,

01:03:05.800 if you were in East Germany

01:03:06.800 back in the day,

01:03:07.840 there was like 20% of GDP

01:03:09.140 on spying on people

01:03:10.660 and keeping an eye out.

01:03:12.380 Okay, that's now,

01:03:13.660 you've got a bunch of cameras,

01:03:14.800 you've got AI,

01:03:15.540 everyone's got a phone on them,

01:03:16.880 and we're tracking everything

01:03:18.620 at all times.

01:03:19.720 Okay?

01:03:21.000 That's a worry.

01:03:22.260 Because we live

01:03:23.380 in liberal democracies,

01:03:24.720 and we're very lucky to,

01:03:26.600 but our leaders,

01:03:28.840 how long will they resist

01:03:29.960 that temptation?

01:03:31.580 You know,

01:03:31.860 digital ID is...

01:03:34.600 What happened during COVID?

01:03:35.880 I mean...

01:03:36.320 Digital ID is terrifying.

01:03:38.500 There's lots of lessons

01:03:39.340 from history

01:03:39.920 about digital ID

01:03:41.900 that we should take

01:03:43.720 very seriously.

01:03:45.100 Because even if the good guys

01:03:46.920 are in charge

01:03:47.380 when it comes in,

01:03:48.840 well,

01:03:49.100 at what point

01:03:49.620 does the world turn

01:03:50.740 and people vote

01:03:51.360 for a bad guy,

01:03:52.600 and then they have the power.

01:03:54.300 More Jews died

01:03:55.200 in the Netherlands

01:03:56.500 than in France.

01:03:59.220 You know why?

01:04:00.680 Better records.

01:04:02.380 Holland kept better records

01:04:03.880 so they knew

01:04:04.760 where everyone was.

01:04:06.460 That's terrifying.

01:04:08.320 You know,

01:04:08.680 the idea of you go

01:04:09.400 digital ID,

01:04:10.040 yeah, great, fabulous,

01:04:11.040 give them all the information,

01:04:12.160 great, fine.

01:04:12.740 We don't know

01:04:13.240 what's coming down the pike.

01:04:14.800 I think that thing about,

01:04:15.840 it's about...

01:04:17.680 And Thomas Sowell

01:04:18.660 gets quoted a lot,

01:04:19.420 rightly so,

01:04:21.060 a brilliant man.

01:04:22.400 There's no solutions,

01:04:23.220 only trade-off.

01:04:24.620 You know,

01:04:24.900 safety and freedom.

01:04:26.560 Where do you want

01:04:27.100 to be on that line?

01:04:28.540 You need a little bit of both.

01:04:29.640 So, I mean,

01:04:30.240 that's one thing for AI

01:04:31.360 is, okay,

01:04:31.860 the job, fine,

01:04:32.920 you might be worried

01:04:33.520 about your job,

01:04:34.200 but you've got

01:04:34.680 transferable skills,

01:04:36.220 and if you've got

01:04:37.180 critical thinking

01:04:37.800 and you're a smart person,

01:04:39.600 jobs for life is gone,

01:04:41.140 but you'll find

01:04:41.740 something else to do.

01:04:42.940 You'll find something else,

01:04:44.320 great.

01:04:45.100 You'll be all right.

01:04:46.760 Trust in that.

01:04:47.540 Trust in your independence

01:04:48.340 that, you know,

01:04:49.480 if you don't work

01:04:49.840 for that company

01:04:50.300 or work for a different company,

01:04:51.460 you'll find something,

01:04:52.880 you know,

01:04:53.180 have some belief in yourself.

01:04:54.640 And then the idea

01:04:56.260 that you go running

01:04:57.100 an authoritarian regime

01:04:58.660 becomes very cheap,

01:04:59.660 so we have to resist that,

01:05:00.860 that civilization

01:05:01.880 is a clearing in the forest.

01:05:03.320 We need to stand

01:05:05.120 very firm

01:05:06.000 against any authoritarian regime,

01:05:09.220 whether it comes

01:05:09.800 from the left

01:05:10.320 or the right,

01:05:10.940 whether it comes

01:05:11.360 from a good place

01:05:11.980 or a bad place.

01:05:13.260 We have to resist that.

01:05:14.580 The other thing

01:05:15.900 is physics.

01:05:17.880 So this is Peter Thiel's point,

01:05:21.280 but minus the screens

01:05:22.600 from any room,

01:05:23.520 we're living in the 1970s,

01:05:25.080 right?

01:05:25.640 So nothing's happened

01:05:27.180 in physics since 72.

01:05:28.760 String theory

01:05:29.260 has not got us anywhere.

01:05:31.320 But if you take

01:05:32.460 the compute power of AI

01:05:33.960 and point it at physics,

01:05:36.220 now everything else

01:05:37.780 in science

01:05:38.580 is stamp collecting,

01:05:40.540 right?

01:05:41.280 Physics is the real thing.

01:05:42.340 That gave us everything.

01:05:43.880 Every bit of technology

01:05:44.940 that we have

01:05:45.600 comes from

01:05:46.480 the physics department.

01:05:48.620 And, you know,

01:05:50.800 what happens

01:05:51.480 when you point AI at that?

01:05:52.900 That's a,

01:05:54.460 that feels to me

01:05:55.260 like something

01:05:55.840 that people aren't

01:05:56.440 really thinking about

01:05:57.180 and is incredibly,

01:05:59.980 could be incredible.

01:06:02.160 We could have a world

01:06:04.020 of plenty

01:06:05.560 where there's no,

01:06:07.560 you know,

01:06:07.820 if we increase productivity

01:06:09.400 by 50 times

01:06:11.120 and there's a human

01:06:12.580 flourishing,

01:06:13.300 fantastic.

01:06:14.140 I hope that's the world

01:06:14.920 we live in.

01:06:16.080 But it could go another way.

01:06:17.920 Indeed it could.

01:06:19.300 Jimmy,

01:06:20.040 it's been great

01:06:20.400 having you back.

01:06:21.320 We're going to ask you

01:06:22.000 some questions

01:06:22.460 from our supporters.

01:06:23.780 Lovely.

01:06:24.300 I'm one of the supporters.

01:06:25.740 We know you are.

01:06:26.560 Yeah.

01:06:26.840 I like this show.

01:06:27.760 Well, we love you.

01:06:29.360 Before we do, though,

01:06:30.340 what's the one thing

01:06:30.940 we're not talking about

01:06:31.960 that we should be?

01:06:34.200 I don't know.

01:06:34.760 I think we need to

01:06:35.580 triage the world's problems.

01:06:37.740 I think we're very

01:06:38.500 self-obsessed

01:06:39.240 in the West.

01:06:40.940 And there's a couple

01:06:41.560 of things that I think

01:06:42.180 we should address

01:06:42.840 that would be relatively

01:06:43.960 easy to fix

01:06:44.760 that are huge

01:06:46.500 global problems.

01:06:48.300 One would be

01:06:49.020 burning biomass.

01:06:50.460 So people burn fuel

01:06:51.580 in their homes

01:06:52.460 in Africa

01:06:54.180 and the East.

01:06:55.760 And that kills

01:06:56.920 three million people

01:06:57.640 a year.

01:06:58.440 And that strikes me

01:06:59.440 as it's an easy fix.

01:07:01.560 We don't do that here.

01:07:03.480 And we let other people

01:07:04.740 do that.

01:07:05.140 We pretend it isn't

01:07:05.740 a problem.

01:07:06.280 It's a huge,

01:07:07.080 huge problem,

01:07:07.460 both environmentally

01:07:08.300 and three million

01:07:09.460 people a year.

01:07:10.320 It's horrific.

01:07:11.380 The other thing

01:07:11.700 that's really boring,

01:07:12.940 smoking.

01:07:13.900 It's like

01:07:14.460 Kaiser Soze,

01:07:15.820 tobacco companies.

01:07:17.180 The greatest trick

01:07:18.020 they ever pulled

01:07:18.580 was making us believe

01:07:19.800 they didn't exist.

01:07:20.940 Because it's not

01:07:21.480 a problem here,

01:07:21.960 is it?

01:07:22.680 People don't smoke

01:07:23.240 as much here.

01:07:23.780 No.

01:07:24.120 Or in the States.

01:07:25.060 Yeah.

01:07:25.760 Globally,

01:07:26.660 worse than it's

01:07:27.840 ever been.

01:07:28.940 And that's an easy

01:07:30.660 fix, right?

01:07:31.840 It's worse than

01:07:32.580 it's ever been.

01:07:33.460 Really?

01:07:33.980 Oh, yeah.

01:07:34.320 More people are

01:07:34.840 dying now from

01:07:35.840 smoking than

01:07:36.620 there were 20

01:07:37.060 years ago.

01:07:37.760 But we're not.

01:07:38.840 So I guess

01:07:39.780 no one gives a

01:07:40.620 f***.

01:07:41.600 And that's an

01:07:42.840 easy problem to

01:07:44.020 fix.

01:07:44.520 From a utilitarian

01:07:45.640 point of view,

01:07:46.200 that would be a

01:07:46.640 great thing to do.

01:07:48.720 Like, there's some

01:07:49.680 low-hanging fruit.

01:07:50.580 There's some easy

01:07:51.040 stuff that maybe

01:07:51.800 we could fix.

01:07:53.140 That would be good.

01:07:53.880 All right.

01:07:54.240 If you're watching

01:07:54.720 this in the so-called

01:07:55.680 third world,

01:07:56.340 stop smoking and

01:07:57.500 head on over to

01:07:58.140 TriggerPod.

01:07:59.680 Oh, are people

01:08:01.160 talking about my

01:08:01.980 arena tour?

01:08:02.560 Well, before we

01:08:04.520 go to it, I was

01:08:05.300 going to ask you

01:08:05.780 about arenas.

01:08:06.260 It's a bit of

01:08:06.720 like inside a

01:08:07.500 baseball, but I

01:08:08.100 was just curious

01:08:08.620 because I've

01:08:09.320 always imagined

01:08:10.060 that a theatre

01:08:12.300 between 200 and

01:08:13.480 500 is kind of

01:08:14.800 the optimum venue

01:08:15.860 for comedy in

01:08:16.600 terms of intimacy

01:08:17.460 and whatever.

01:08:18.760 Or is arena

01:08:19.680 the more the

01:08:20.260 better?

01:08:20.860 I think there's

01:08:22.260 different ways of

01:08:23.160 doing it.

01:08:23.660 So I learned

01:08:24.820 from the best.

01:08:25.960 I did some gigs

01:08:26.600 with Chappelle in

01:08:27.780 Australia and we

01:08:29.760 played in the round

01:08:30.480 and we were

01:08:31.680 doing a 15,000

01:08:32.500 seater and it

01:08:33.680 felt intimate,

01:08:34.720 felt like a

01:08:35.220 theatre.

01:08:35.540 Also, the

01:08:36.680 moment of

01:08:37.580 walking out,

01:08:38.140 maybe the

01:08:38.560 greatest moment

01:08:39.000 in show

01:08:39.260 business, when

01:08:40.160 you walk out

01:08:40.900 and it's like a

01:08:42.440 boxer because

01:08:43.020 you've got to

01:08:43.300 walk out to

01:08:43.800 the middle of

01:08:44.120 the room.

01:08:45.100 No one is

01:08:45.780 more than 2,000

01:08:46.700 seats away in

01:08:47.640 the arena.

01:08:48.620 So you've got

01:08:49.280 that intimacy and

01:08:50.040 you just kind of

01:08:50.520 turn, you've got

01:08:50.900 the screens above.

01:08:52.560 It feels like a

01:08:53.600 very intimate

01:08:53.960 space, but it's

01:08:54.700 about how you

01:08:55.260 play it.

01:08:55.940 If you're end

01:08:56.600 on, it can be

01:08:57.160 quite kind of in

01:08:58.680 the distance.

01:08:59.140 But it's, yeah,

01:09:01.080 and I do a lot

01:09:01.620 of crowd work, so

01:09:02.260 it's very important

01:09:03.020 to me that people

01:09:03.560 can join in and I

01:09:04.660 can see the whites

01:09:05.140 of their eyes and

01:09:05.640 I can make it fun.

01:09:07.240 But yeah, no, it

01:09:08.280 works.

01:09:08.740 They look really

01:09:09.300 fun.

01:09:09.640 The clips, I see

01:09:10.640 clips, like I said,

01:09:11.360 all the time and it

01:09:12.100 looks like you're

01:09:12.640 having a good time,

01:09:13.360 the crowd's having

01:09:13.900 a good time.

01:09:14.760 Yeah, I think it's

01:09:15.300 that.

01:09:15.340 There's occasional

01:09:15.900 serious moment as

01:09:17.120 well, a little

01:09:17.580 touching moment,

01:09:18.560 you know.

01:09:19.300 There's lots of

01:09:19.880 serious stuff.

01:09:20.440 I think that thing

01:09:20.880 of like people, I'm

01:09:23.000 open to that.

01:09:23.820 I'm very open to

01:09:24.380 the idea of going,

01:09:25.200 especially when people

01:09:25.720 like text in or

01:09:26.340 shout out or

01:09:26.780 whatever, if someone

01:09:27.960 comes to a gig and

01:09:29.500 they're going through

01:09:30.600 something, I like

01:09:32.400 talking about it.

01:09:33.200 Well, I think it

01:09:33.600 also works because

01:09:34.320 when I'm watching

01:09:34.900 you, I'm expecting

01:09:35.700 a pedo gag.

01:09:37.720 So when one doesn't

01:09:38.900 come and it's

01:09:39.500 actually you being

01:09:40.200 genuine, I'm like,

01:09:40.940 oh, no, I'm

01:09:42.600 actually touched.

01:09:43.500 And then you get

01:09:44.020 the pedo gag.

01:09:44.560 I think people,

01:09:45.380 I think people

01:09:46.320 though, everyone

01:09:46.960 contains multitudes,

01:09:48.500 right?

01:09:48.660 And it's that thing

01:09:49.280 of like going since

01:09:50.040 the pandemic happened

01:09:51.440 and I wrote a book

01:09:52.300 and it was kind of,

01:09:53.240 you know, Eckhart Tolle

01:09:54.040 for dummies.

01:09:54.720 It was like a self

01:09:55.360 help book that I

01:09:56.040 wrote and I liked it

01:09:58.280 and I like that thing

01:09:59.060 about going, well, I

01:10:00.000 love coming on the

01:10:01.220 pod and chatting

01:10:01.920 about serious stuff

01:10:02.760 but it's also, it's

01:10:03.960 that thing of like,

01:10:04.860 I'm so aware that I

01:10:06.620 have a job to do and

01:10:08.360 I'm in the service

01:10:09.060 industry and someone's

01:10:10.200 bought a ticket to my

01:10:10.940 show and they go,

01:10:12.120 right, I want to laugh

01:10:12.820 for two hours straight

01:10:14.200 and not think about

01:10:14.800 the world.

01:10:15.180 No problem, I got you.

01:10:16.580 And within that,

01:10:17.320 there might be five

01:10:17.960 minutes of, you know,

01:10:19.440 a moment with someone

01:10:20.460 but even that's going

01:10:21.300 to have, it's going to

01:10:22.080 have that same spirit

01:10:23.120 of play and fun

01:10:24.620 within it.

01:10:25.800 Bill Byrd talks about

01:10:26.820 that when they asked

01:10:27.660 when, I can't remember

01:10:29.440 the interview that

01:10:29.900 asked him, what do you

01:10:30.560 want people to take

01:10:31.380 away your show?

01:10:32.360 He said, nothing.

01:10:33.140 He goes, I just want

01:10:33.860 to give them their

01:10:34.300 money's worth.

01:10:36.040 Yeah, it's great.

01:10:37.160 Best way to do that.

01:10:38.200 That's such a great

01:10:38.820 line.

01:10:39.440 Right, pay five pounds,

01:10:41.060 go to triggerpod.co.uk

01:10:42.520 and you're going to

01:10:43.160 get five pounds worth

01:10:44.220 of Jimmy answering

01:10:45.000 your questions.

01:10:46.000 All right, I'll do

01:10:46.500 my best.

01:10:48.900 Are there any subjects

01:10:50.240 or topics you wouldn't

01:10:51.180 go near with a barge pole

01:10:52.300 or is everything fair game

01:10:53.800 in your amazing comedy

01:10:54.860 brain?

01:10:55.180 Go full!

01:10:55.740 Go full!

01:10:57.360 Go full!

01:10:57.520 Go full!

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TRIGGERnometry - December 10, 2025

A Revolution is Coming! - Jimmy Carr

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