TRIGGERnometry - Academia Has Fallen

00:00:00.000 I was in infant school, so I must have been about five, and we had books got delivered every month.

00:00:06.780 So I'm sat next to this lad, and he had this bright yellow book that was about Red Indians.

00:00:13.620 Sorry, I can't say that. Native Americans, Red Indians at the time.

00:00:17.220 I could see they had an ink drawing of a Native American with his arm on the ground.

00:00:22.240 He was lying down listening, and I read enough even at that age to know he was listening for things in the distance.

00:00:27.720 And he said, no, he's dead. I said, he's not. He's listening for things in the distance.

00:00:33.580 And it was in the context of the chapter. It was pretty obvious.

00:00:36.900 So it escalated quite quickly, me being me.

00:00:40.960 And I started calling, you're thick. You're thick.

00:00:45.060 So the teacher came over, and she basically, I was hoping, she was this authority figure.

00:00:50.200 And to me, even at that age, the truth mattered.

00:00:52.160 And she said, oh, leave him, Paul. It's like everyone's entitled to their opinion.

00:00:56.900 So in that one moment, I think from the age of fives, you're talking 50 years later on, that's never left me,

00:01:06.400 because I've witnessed it at universities, that authorities who are guardians of the truth is, you know, putting too fine a spin on it.

00:01:15.920 But the truth does matter, and learning does matter, and they've turned their backs on it.

00:01:20.860 Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:34.600 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:01:35.700 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:41.300 Our brilliant guest today is a retired academic who's absolutely fed up with what he's had to deal with his entire career.

00:01:47.320 And he's come on Trigonometry to drop some truth bombs.

00:01:50.540 Paul Taylor, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:52.280 It's tough to be here. Thanks very much.

00:01:53.660 It's great to have you on. You're going to blackpill us about the state of the academic world.

00:01:58.360 But before we get into that, tell us who are you, how are you, where you are,

00:02:01.640 what has been the journey through life that leads you to be sitting here talking to us?

00:02:04.740 Well, until a couple of months ago, I was an academic at Leeds University.

00:02:08.400 And before that, I'd been at Salford, and I studied, I did my degree and PhD at University of Edinburgh.

00:02:17.140 And the reason, I'd split it into two, there's my motivation to wanting to speak,

00:02:21.880 and it was basically, I think I was on the risk of having an aneurysm watching the television

00:02:27.880 and the type of things that I said.

00:02:30.340 That's a very common condition nowadays, I tell you.

00:02:32.860 Well, we'll get on to hopefully some of the good aspects of this.

00:02:36.160 So, for example, I went through a phase where I kept shouting,

00:02:38.880 it's the Salem Bloody Witch Trials.

00:02:41.180 And then Andrew Doyle wrote his book on the New Puritans.

00:02:44.080 So I thought, well, at least I'm not going mad.

00:02:47.660 And this is the type of thing, and it's mostly the media's inability.

00:02:51.580 So if I can talk about what annoyed me most about the media,

00:02:53.780 and I'll try and do that as quickly as possible.

00:02:55.460 But one of my main points is the way in which the media dumbs down everything.

00:03:01.420 So I know that's a bit of an obvious point to make, but I can go into specifics.

00:03:04.640 And I just sometimes think of getting a tattoo on my forehead saying it's more complicated than that.

00:03:10.260 And if there was a machine to make things unduly simple, it would be places like the BBC,

00:03:16.980 which I can, you know, you can hands off commercial TV or radio because it's not their remit

00:03:23.420 to necessarily educate the public.

00:03:25.540 But the BBC, it's supposed to be part of their historical remit.

00:03:29.300 And I just remember him watching terrible things.

00:03:33.040 So, for example, without going into the politics of Brexit, which is easier said than done,

00:03:39.120 the level of discourse.

00:03:41.320 So have you heard of Target 2 balances?

00:03:44.400 No.

00:03:44.920 Right.

00:03:45.180 If I can remember, it stands for Trans-European Automatic Real-Time Gross Settlement Express Transfer System.

00:03:56.000 And it's because in the EU, when they used to have float, before they had the euro,

00:04:00.880 you'd have floating exchange rates.

00:04:02.880 So if you're buying loads from a foreign country, your currency depreciates,

00:04:07.440 they become more expensive, and there's a balancing mechanism.

00:04:09.640 The Germans typically export loads, and this means that in the old days,

00:04:16.040 the Deutsche Mark would have appreciated, and that would have balanced things out.

00:04:19.260 Because they got rid of that, they have a paper trail.

00:04:23.200 They have, within the EU, that everything in euro still has to be paid.

00:04:28.420 So they have nominal balances.

00:04:31.340 So the Germans have this massive surplus.

00:04:33.360 And it wasn't too bad until about 2008 with the Lehman banking crisis.

00:04:36.980 And then you can check out, it's a while since I looked at them,

00:04:41.460 but it's about Germany's owed, inverted commas, about 1.4 trillion euros by the rest of Europe.

00:04:48.420 So if, for example, a country ever wanted to leave, Italy wanted to leave,

00:04:52.740 and I know there's jokes about the Hotel California,

00:04:55.320 you can check in, but you can't leave.

00:04:57.240 But this is one of the reasons Italy are on the hook.

00:05:00.080 Or they could just renege.

00:05:01.940 But there are huge balances which show the inequalities that,

00:05:06.560 because of variable exchange rates, are no longer there.

00:05:09.240 Now, forgive me that it's a slightly technical economic analysis of what's going on,

00:05:14.700 but it's not insignificant.

00:05:16.720 And if you don't believe me, Mario Draghi,

00:05:18.840 who's supposed to be the godfather, so to speak, of economics within the EU,

00:05:22.860 he's the go-to man, the fixer.

00:05:25.540 He's gone on record as saying it's one of the most first things he looks at each morning

00:05:29.020 of the target two balances.

00:05:31.340 So these are serious issues.

00:05:33.320 Now, can you remember in any discussion,

00:05:36.420 and this idea that the ignorance was always on one side,

00:05:40.500 when I think it's quite clear, I mentioned it to a few colleagues,

00:05:43.880 target what?

00:05:46.140 But they were somehow the self-appointed,

00:05:48.720 I know you've been reading Thomas Sowell, I think you've said in the past,

00:05:51.940 and he has this idea about the self-anointed,

00:05:55.240 where intellectuals give themselves credit for things they don't know

00:05:59.980 and act as if they do.

00:06:02.260 So that's just the default position of the media, as far as I can see.

00:06:08.640 And there's instances, so I was getting slightly annoyed,

00:06:12.120 I think on one of the Roars, you've had to go with Alistair Campbell.

00:06:16.440 And that was the other thing that was risking giving me an aneurysm,

00:06:19.160 because you made the very valid point, why is he being spoken to?

00:06:24.080 This is a guy who should be in The Hague, not in the television studio.

00:06:29.740 And you can find it online, he did an Irish,

00:06:33.740 something like The Late Show, and Nigel Farage was on with him.

00:06:38.140 And I've only watched a small segment, but the antipathy,

00:06:41.920 if there's a live audience, the antipathy towards Nigel Farage,

00:06:45.840 you can cut it with a knife.

00:06:47.860 And at one point, this will surprise you,

00:06:49.600 but Alistair Campbell gets quite angry, and is talking over everybody.

00:06:53.820 And he says, Nigel, this is a direct quote,

00:06:57.860 Nigel, Nigel, own your own shit.

00:07:01.200 And the audience gives a spontaneous round of applause,

00:07:03.540 unless I've just imagined that bit.

00:07:05.620 And I'm thinking, own your own shit?

00:07:08.420 Is this a projection?

00:07:12.340 Just the inability, the level of way in which civil discourse,

00:07:16.480 the way in which to have an, not even an intellectual,

00:07:19.300 but just a rational argument,

00:07:21.480 has become completely ruined by people's tribal affinities.

00:07:26.960 And I'm from, by blood I'm Irish.

00:07:29.480 And it really does annoy me,

00:07:31.660 the way in which the Irish give themselves a free pass

00:07:35.560 on some of the difficult issues around the EU,

00:07:38.960 which now they're trying to get rid of their tax haven status,

00:07:42.020 that some of these things might come to the fore.

00:07:43.620 Well, we'll get onto all of that.

00:07:45.200 And your point about Alistair Campbell and Nigel Farage

00:07:47.620 is quite a funny one,

00:07:48.380 because if you think about public consciousness,

00:07:51.260 which of those two people is considered more immoral,

00:07:53.900 and more evil and more despicable

00:07:56.180 and more specifically morally questionable,

00:07:59.820 it is without doubt,

00:08:01.100 it certainly, if you watch the media,

00:08:02.720 it would be Nigel Farage,

00:08:03.580 a guy who followed the democratic process.

00:08:06.040 Some people didn't like what he achieved,

00:08:07.760 but that's what he did.

00:08:09.060 Alistair Campbell, on the other hand,

00:08:10.520 very different kettle of fish.

00:08:12.400 Certainly Iraqis, I think, would agree with that.

00:08:14.520 But you still haven't answered my question,

00:08:16.500 which is what's your background?

00:08:17.940 Well, that's what academics do.

00:08:20.200 Okay, okay.

00:08:21.500 Well, you might have worked out by now,

00:08:23.760 born and bred in Liverpool.

00:08:25.760 And my first,

00:08:27.020 I can give you two little examples

00:08:28.180 of my first educational experience

00:08:29.800 before I talk about how terrible the universities are.

00:08:33.160 My mother, I think they diagnose it now

00:08:35.620 as severely dyslexic,

00:08:37.040 but it was never,

00:08:38.060 I don't think it was too early in those days.

00:08:40.180 So she really struggled with reading,

00:08:42.080 but I think she transferred,

00:08:43.360 she hothoused me.

00:08:45.080 So I've got a very vivid memory of being,

00:08:46.640 if anyone knows Liverpool,

00:08:47.580 it's Chilwell Five Ways,

00:08:49.280 there's Chilwell Library.

00:08:50.800 And I was tiny,

00:08:51.800 and I was looking up

00:08:53.220 and there's a big librarian

00:08:55.460 and they wouldn't give me a library card

00:08:57.740 because I was far too young.

00:08:59.600 So my mother was all scouse,

00:09:01.960 come on, give him any book,

00:09:03.080 any book, give him one.

00:09:04.180 So he handed me just an adult non-fiction book,

00:09:07.100 which I promptly read

00:09:08.080 without any problems at all.

00:09:09.260 And he thought, fair enough,

00:09:10.120 here's your ticket.

00:09:10.640 So that was my love of books.

00:09:14.200 And when I would sound like old father time,

00:09:16.040 because I know you, for example,

00:09:17.460 Constantine, you're addicted to your bloody mobile.

00:09:20.640 You know, your attack is like an umbilical cord,

00:09:22.360 doesn't it?

00:09:23.040 But those days, what did you have?

00:09:25.280 You know, wooden toys and loops and hoops, whatever.

00:09:29.240 No, but there just, there wasn't much.

00:09:30.740 So you did, and telly was even worse now,

00:09:33.280 because at least you've got the internet now.

00:09:35.440 But, you know, there wasn't that much to do.

00:09:38.700 So I read, you know,

00:09:40.980 I read an absolute hell of a lot.

00:09:44.800 And then I had this very formative experience.

00:09:46.740 We can, I can tell you the story

00:09:47.640 and then we can just call the interview to a halt

00:09:49.520 because it just encapsulates everything.

00:09:51.720 I was in infant school,

00:09:52.900 so I must've been about five.

00:09:55.020 And we had, books got delivered every month.

00:09:58.120 And it was like, you know, one of these book clubs.

00:10:00.280 And it was a big deal.

00:10:01.520 And I remember if someone's a bibliophile,

00:10:04.800 you read the smell of books,

00:10:06.940 there's something about it.

00:10:08.620 And it's this wood pulp smell.

00:10:10.540 It's still, it's like Proust and his bloody Madeleines.

00:10:13.400 But I can smell the books still.

00:10:16.120 And we had a nice, I'm not crying poverty.

00:10:19.900 We had a nice house,

00:10:20.820 but then there's a Northern phrase.

00:10:22.200 There's a phrase, all fur coat and no knickers.

00:10:24.880 So we had a nice house, but we weren't spoiled as kids.

00:10:27.500 So I never got one of these books.

00:10:28.960 So I'm sat next to this lad who I've subsequently,

00:10:33.820 I now know in my head, excuse the vulgarity,

00:10:36.640 as little Johnny Fuckwit.

00:10:38.400 And he had this bright yellow book that was about Red Indians.

00:10:43.540 Sorry, I can't say that now.

00:10:44.740 Native Americans, Red Indians at the time.

00:10:47.560 And it was all about, I had it over his fat shoulder,

00:10:51.480 I'm looking.

00:10:52.800 And it was about Indian culture and what they did.

00:10:58.140 And I could see they had an ink drawing of a Native American

00:11:01.460 with his arm on the ground.

00:11:03.500 He was lying down, listening.

00:11:05.240 And I, you know, read enough even at that age to know

00:11:07.420 he was listening for things in the distance.

00:11:09.800 So he said, I mentioned this to him.

00:11:13.160 And he said, no, he's dead.

00:11:15.440 I said, he's not.

00:11:16.500 He's listening for things in the distance.

00:11:18.260 And it was in the context of the chapter.

00:11:20.540 It was pretty obvious.

00:11:21.860 So it escalated quite quickly, me being me.

00:11:25.960 And I started calling it, you're thick.

00:11:28.560 You're thick.

00:11:29.960 So the teacher came over.

00:11:31.960 And she basically, I was hoping, she was this authority figure.

00:11:35.100 And to me, even at that age, the truth mattered.

00:11:37.620 So I thought, he's not dead.

00:11:39.480 He's alive.

00:11:40.300 It's about Native American culture.

00:11:42.740 She's going to tell him.

00:11:44.040 And she said, oh, leave him, Paul.

00:11:46.240 It's like everyone's entitled to their opinion.

00:11:48.520 And so in that one moment, it was, I think, from the age of five.

00:11:56.940 So you're talking 50 years later on.

00:11:58.600 That's never left me because I've witnessed it at universities.

00:12:01.460 And the authorities who are guardians of the truth is, you know, putting too fine a spin on it.

00:12:09.000 But the truth does matter.

00:12:10.880 And learning does matter.

00:12:12.700 And they've turned their backs on it.

00:12:14.140 So anyway, that was infant school.

00:12:15.880 I went to a, it was a, I got the 11 plus, did a grammar school in Liverpool.

00:12:19.780 And it would have been a grammar school, but it turned into an independent school when I was already at it because they threatened turning it into a comp.

00:12:28.220 So, but everyone who was already there was sorted.

00:12:30.660 All your fees were paid and everything.

00:12:31.780 It was the 11 plus.

00:12:33.140 And that, we might get onto that later, but that taught me about the selection procedure because I benefited from my, it was in West Derby, my school.

00:12:41.160 And, but people from all over Liverpool went to it and it was the top one or 2% of, you know, Liverpool who got to that school.

00:12:50.000 So it was just, and I know there are issues about everyone, arguably everyone should be educated together, but there's undoubtedly advantages when the teacher doesn't have to explain the most basic things to people.

00:13:03.020 And I experienced this, I did maths.

00:13:05.300 I've always had to think about maths.

00:13:06.600 I absolutely adore maths, but I'm not particularly good at it.

00:13:09.520 When I say not particularly good, I got maths O level a year early and I got an A.

00:13:15.320 So nationally I was good at maths, but in my, I was in the A set for maths.

00:13:19.040 Out of 34, I'd regularly come 30 or 31st.

00:13:23.020 So when something was explained to me in class, I knew very quickly that these people are, they're getting it in 10 seconds.

00:13:29.940 It's taken me three minutes.

00:13:31.860 I don't have a comparative advantage on this topic, but that didn't stop me loving it.

00:13:36.240 But that also, I've always had in my life as well, educationally, this trade-off between, it sounds like an American advert doesn't be the best you can be, versus everyone should have access.

00:13:47.860 So I understand the dilemma, but I am a massive advocate.

00:13:51.860 I think Peter Hitchens has just done a book called The Revolution Betrayed about grammar schools and what they achieved.

00:13:58.480 And, you know, someone like Anton's, you know, a ne'er-do-well from recent times, but, you know, Liverpool in the 80s, that was rough.

00:14:09.040 And, you know, I'm not kidding, boys from the black stuff, all that type of stuff.

00:14:12.120 So I've got vivid memories.

00:14:13.320 I know it's not Soviet Union levels of poverty, but it was...

00:14:17.480 It's much, much worse.

00:14:18.020 No, it was pretty rough, but everyone I knew, I was going to say, who made it out of Liverpool, went to a grammar school.

00:14:26.480 And insofar as there was any social mobility in those days, it was grammar school assisted.

00:14:30.840 And I think that's a massive argument in Peter Hitchens' book.

00:14:34.880 So, ironically, if I'd gone to my local comprehensive school, it would have been...

00:14:39.740 I know you don't like class analysis.

00:14:42.160 No, it's all right.

00:14:43.000 I don't like it.

00:14:43.960 No, I'm joking.

00:14:44.420 It would have been much more homogenous in terms of the local catchment area.

00:14:49.240 So, ironically, I went to an independent school that had a much, much better mix of people from around the city.

00:14:55.580 And you've got a sense of how, you know, I was hothoused as a kid to read.

00:15:00.840 There was never an issue.

00:15:03.100 You know, I went and put money in the electricity meter to get the lights on, which some, you know, people I studied with did.

00:15:08.560 So, I was just very, very conscious, but that was their way out, was by education.

00:15:15.600 So, you know, this sounds like I'm talking about the developing world, but in parts of England specifically that I know most about, that's true.

00:15:24.540 So, that was, I did A-levels, I went on to do A-levels, I did, and I'll only mention them because I want to pick up on some of the themes.

00:15:33.120 I did Spanish, English literature, and economics, and we did, everyone did general studies.

00:15:38.340 But the English and Spanish, in those days, we did about a good third of it was literature and history.

00:15:47.300 So, I did the Conquistadores, so I learned all about that, which was fascinating.

00:15:51.240 And for today's knowledge, it's interesting that when they went to Mexico, I think it was Cortes,

00:15:57.060 they managed to bring down the whole Aztec empire with very few people, a few rottweiler dogs and a few horses that scared the locals.

00:16:05.020 But that was because of various complex reasons, the weakness of the Aztec empire.

00:16:10.460 And the idea that nowadays, small vocal groups are doing so much damage.

00:16:15.560 If there's a rotten culture, there's something wrong with the dominant culture.

00:16:20.720 Absolutely catastrophic things can happen.

00:16:23.420 So, that's what I got from that.

00:16:24.620 And also, I did some existential, Ernesto Sabato, El Tunel, which was an existential novel ahead of its time.

00:16:32.220 So, it's better than Sartre, in my humble opinion.

00:16:36.500 So, I got a taste for things like, and just reading in a foreign language.

00:16:40.960 I think you've done translation work in the past, Constantine.

00:16:44.480 And one of my frustrations teaching was, let's put it this way, if I saw an essay that was really grammatically really good,

00:16:53.200 I'd look to see which part of Scandinavia they came from.

00:16:57.700 Because British students don't have facility with their own language.

00:17:01.840 So, the idea that they'd have facility with other languages, I think that's one of the saddest things about...

00:17:08.200 You get lots of good inputs from overseas students.

00:17:13.640 But I think the UK as a whole, I think language teaching is getting worse, not better, in terms of resources, the amount of language teachers.

00:17:23.340 So, that was one of the things I learned.

00:17:24.600 And it just brings so much.

00:17:26.300 So, maybe later on we'll get on to.

00:17:27.660 But I've started looking at Midrash, which is a Hebrew biblical studies technique and body of literature.

00:17:37.140 Because I'm fascinated by how meaning is constructed.

00:17:41.320 And that approach to language, and when you look at the...

00:17:45.720 We'll hopefully get on to the issues about the canon and, you know, the books that we should be reading.

00:17:50.620 But when you look at Old Testament or Hebrew writings, and often it will have gone from Aramaic to Hebrew to Greek to English.

00:18:02.040 And at every single point, someone's made a translation judgment that's got profound consequences on what the thing means.

00:18:11.060 And if you don't have facility with language...

00:18:14.160 So, you know, history, a historical context has been driven out of public discourse.

00:18:19.180 Language skills are often limited.

00:18:23.200 And the subtlety, the complexity of what's truly there.

00:18:27.260 So, I'll give you one little example before I go on.

00:18:29.700 There's...

00:18:30.500 I think they're called the wisdom books.

00:18:32.860 So, I think it's Ecclesiastes, which is also known as Kohelet, Proverbs, and the Book of Job.

00:18:41.940 And I'd never...

00:18:44.520 I think we're talking off camera about once you're retired, you can read all the things you've wanted to read.

00:18:49.180 And I never would have read, you know, Old Testament type...

00:18:52.280 Boring.

00:18:53.840 And there's a guy in America called Robert Alter, who's a biblical scholar.

00:18:58.100 And he's done a retranslation of the wisdom books.

00:19:01.160 And I think in Ecclesiastes, there's a famous...

00:19:03.680 There's a constant phrase, O vanity, O vanities.

00:19:06.900 And it's all about things under the sun.

00:19:09.160 But he translates it as mere breath, mere breath.

00:19:15.860 And then later on, there's a refrain.

00:19:17.340 It's like herding wind.

00:19:19.760 And it's existential literature from two and a half thousand years ago.

00:19:27.160 The language is beautiful.

00:19:29.400 The meaning is beautiful.

00:19:32.400 But in order to engage with that, you have to have a frame of reference, which that's what those...

00:19:38.900 The English and the Spanish.

00:19:40.660 But having said all that, and this is why I've learned as my career progressed.

00:19:44.580 Because I'd done economics, I thought my father was an accountant.

00:19:47.640 I thought, well, I'll go off and do an economics and accounting degree.

00:19:50.600 And I'll be sorted for life.

00:19:52.900 So I signed up.

00:19:54.280 I did economics and accounting at Edinburgh.

00:19:57.940 Realised very, very quickly accountancy wasn't for me.

00:20:00.760 So I managed to do economics and politics.

00:20:04.520 And through the politics over the years, I've drifted more and more to the literature,

00:20:08.460 which is what I should have done from the get-go.

00:20:10.880 But in the first year of Edinburgh, one of the highlights for me was we had a...

00:20:15.600 It was a general course.

00:20:18.000 But basically, people across the social sciences, you had to do a statistics course.

00:20:23.420 And there was this guy, I think you've spoken in the past, Francis, about teachers and the importance of them.

00:20:29.040 So it's the course no one wants to teach.

00:20:31.980 It was statistics.

00:20:33.720 There's a load of grumpy public school boys and people like me.

00:20:38.360 And it was like listening to someone verbally describe the visual manipulations of a Rubik's Cube.

00:20:46.060 It was absolutely wonderful.

00:20:48.660 I've never heard anyone speak about maths the way he did.

00:20:52.240 And I think statistics is quite specific because it has a social context.

00:20:56.440 It's not pure maths.

00:20:58.280 And if, you know, Neil Ferguson and the COVID bunch had done any proper statistics,

00:21:03.220 we wouldn't have been in lockdown for what seemed like five years.

00:21:06.080 Which is, you know, it's a major issue.

00:21:09.220 People don't do stats.

00:21:11.020 So jumping around, but that would be, if you're going to say, what's your recommendation that everyone does?

00:21:17.780 Forget all this government or let's learn what democracy is.

00:21:21.740 Every student that can possibly be force-fed a statistics course should be.

00:21:27.040 So you're in agreement with Rishi Sunak then, Paul?

00:21:30.620 Well, specifically statistics.

00:21:31.980 I think he just wants everyone to turn everyone into an investment banker.

00:21:35.340 But if you're going to be an active citizen.

00:21:38.120 So we are jumping around now, but you pointed me in that direction.

00:21:42.640 I'm blaming you.

00:21:43.360 You know, the grooming gang scandal, I remember seeing a discussion, one of the very few discussions on Channel 4.

00:21:51.760 And I think it was Cathy Newman.

00:21:54.020 And she was talking with, is it Nazir Afzal, who was the Northwest Director of Public Prosecutions.

00:22:01.520 And he's from a South Asian origin.

00:22:05.640 And at one point, I think she was trying to argue.

00:22:09.160 And forgive me if it wasn't Cathy Newman, but it sounds like the type of thing she'd do.

00:22:12.120 She was trying to argue that because the vast majority of child abusers are white, that it's completely unfair to focus on the grooming gang scandal.

00:22:22.040 And I'm thinking the overwhelming number of child abusers are white because the overwhelming numbers still in this country are white.

00:22:31.020 So it's your selection categories.

00:22:33.920 And then she actually said, he said, it's undeniable that the overwhelming demographic of these child abusers are South Asian, men of South Asian origin.

00:22:48.060 And I remember she said, that's a bold statement.

00:22:51.840 I'm thinking, really?

00:22:53.480 No, that's a statement of basic truth.

00:22:56.080 But anyway, that statistics would have helped massively if Channel 4 reporters had ever done any or paid attention.

00:23:05.140 That would help in serious issues like that.

00:23:08.240 But then in second year, the highlight of my whole university career, and you might like this, Constantine,

00:23:13.420 I did a year-long course on 19th century Russian studies that involved literature and history.

00:23:19.400 And unlike today, it was a year-long.

00:23:25.360 So you didn't do these little bitty, you know, do a module here and a module.

00:23:30.640 Here's a module, there's a module everywhere.

00:23:33.180 It was just wonderful.

00:23:34.860 And we did.

00:23:35.440 It wasn't just, oh, you'll do Tolstoy and that's it.

00:23:39.340 We went from Gogol to Ganev, Lermontov.

00:23:42.840 We did all the Dostoevsky, we did a war and peace, we did Anna Karenina.

00:23:47.880 That was half the course.

00:23:49.920 The other half was history.

00:23:51.740 So the intellectual ambition and scope, and you got people from within the humanities and social sciences got to do it.

00:24:00.000 In today's universities, you can do like discovery courses or something.

00:24:04.920 And you'd be lucky, they'd probably give you a few chapters of war and peace.

00:24:08.900 Because obviously the whole book's far too tiring and too difficult.

00:24:14.340 So that, in those days, what really struck me compared to now was the level of intellectual ambition.

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00:24:52.280 Talk to us briefly about your academic career, because we haven't got there yet.

00:24:56.340 Right, I'll get to the point then.

00:24:58.680 So I went from Edinburgh to Salford.

00:25:02.880 And I spent, I wrote some books on my PhD, sorry, I didn't mean, PhD Edinburgh.

00:25:07.740 That was on computer hacking.

00:25:10.340 And it was interesting.

00:25:12.360 I struggled to get, I got the PhD published, but it took a while.

00:25:15.920 Because they said, I love the logic.

00:25:17.640 They said, because no one's written on computer hackers before, we don't have a market for it.

00:25:22.780 Which I thought was a bit odd, because surely they want to sell things that haven't been written about.

00:25:28.080 But it was a sociological study of hackers, or as I would say, hackers, and how they went about it.

00:25:34.300 And no one had done that before.

00:25:36.200 So that was quite interesting.

00:25:37.980 Then I did a book on hacktivism, which is politically motivated hacking.

00:25:41.620 And that was all at Salford, based upon my PhD.

00:25:47.380 And then I moved more into, so what's interesting about that is in my early academic career, and in my PhD, it was about how people interact with and try and control technology.

00:25:59.780 So I wasn't arguing that technology dominates us.

00:26:02.540 I was actively trying to seek ways in which people can take control of technology.

00:26:07.080 But as my academic career progressed, I realized more and more, I became much more of a determinist.

00:26:13.820 I think technology has very determining features that are massively underestimated.

00:26:19.400 So I moved more into what's known as the culture industry, what's known as, ironically, it's portrayed nowadays as cultural Marxism.

00:26:28.640 Frankfurt School, I wrote a book with a co-author called Critical Theories of Mass Media, then and now.

00:26:34.400 So it was in the past and brought up to the modern era.

00:26:38.620 And then I got, I moved to Leeds and got very interested in Slavoj Žižek's work, again, labelled by some as a cultural Marxist.

00:26:47.080 So what makes my career slightly unusual is I've studied technology in depth from a sociological point of view.

00:26:55.500 But I'm very, very critical, and I think universities use technology in ways that are quite unthinking and uncritical.

00:27:03.960 I've done a lot of cultural Marxism.

00:27:07.680 We used to sit there in Edinburgh, and it was like the Bible.

00:27:10.980 I remember specifically the edition of Das Kapital.

00:27:13.960 It was paper-thin tissue paper.

00:27:16.240 We'd all reverentially go through it line by line.

00:27:20.540 And it was John Holloway who taught me there, who was quite a well-known Marxist.

00:27:25.560 So I've got all this Marxist background, and I treat it more as literature, though.

00:27:31.220 To me, it's fascinating analysis of capitalism.

00:27:37.400 But the idea that the assumptions are often bonkers, the analysis is great,

00:27:43.820 and the conclusions are bonkers with legs on.

00:27:47.540 So I am in this slightly interesting situation where I'm immersed in this type of stuff,

00:27:55.140 but simultaneously very critical of it.

00:27:57.720 But I also think some of the so-called postmodern stuff gets a very bad rap

00:28:03.840 and is profoundly misunderstood.

00:28:07.520 And my sense is that some of the issues you talk about on this show,

00:28:12.400 about how do we break through, how do we have this rational discourse in good faith,

00:28:22.000 how do we relate to each other better, how do we have proper debates.

00:28:25.780 One of the things you might want to talk about is the way in which people don't understand

00:28:29.920 the things they're labelling.

00:28:32.940 So I'm a massive fan of Douglas Murray,

00:28:34.700 but I think he's on certain issues about it.

00:28:38.040 I think he's doing what Richard Rannan would call shadow work on postmodernism.

00:28:44.300 I think he's misrepresented it, and he's put on loads of bogeyman aspects.

00:28:51.240 Interestingly, Andrew Doyle doesn't do this.

00:28:53.280 I think Andrew Doyle's got a doctorate.

00:28:55.580 And whenever I've heard him and I've read,

00:28:58.080 he's very, very cautious about it.

00:29:00.180 He doesn't blame postmodernism.

00:29:01.620 I think he distinguishes between postmodernism and applied postmodernism.

00:29:05.520 So people have made a mess of.

00:29:07.800 And I can relate to that because my book,

00:29:09.680 Critical Theories on Mass Media Then and Now,

00:29:11.540 it was translated into Farsi.

00:29:14.540 And I was interviewed by someone from,

00:29:17.580 I'm not exaggerating,

00:29:18.680 he was someone linked with the Revolutionary Council.

00:29:21.720 Because retrospectively thinking about it,

00:29:24.220 I was having a go at Western capitalist media

00:29:27.440 from a very critical point of view.

00:29:29.980 So if there's ever another, you know, revolution with the Ayatollahs,

00:29:34.400 my book might be waved in the streets of Tehran.

00:29:37.760 But my point is, you don't know how your work's going to be used.

00:29:41.400 You don't know how your work's going to be misinterpreted.

00:29:44.740 And what I think is interesting is if it was,

00:29:47.840 if the ivory tower was the old-fashioned ivory tower

00:29:50.840 that was quite tightly circumscribed and there weren't.

00:29:55.480 So when I went to university in 1985,

00:29:58.140 I think it was about 12% of people went to university.

00:30:02.260 Now it's a good 50%.

00:30:03.700 And, you know, some of the concerns you've discussed on this show

00:30:07.620 about how bad ideas percolate into society at large.

00:30:12.940 Well, first of all, the ivory tower was more ring-fenced.

00:30:16.780 And I think Oscar Wilde said, you know,

00:30:18.120 the stupidity of professors is long-studied for and earned.

00:30:23.340 But those stupid ideas, I absolutely,

00:30:26.260 I've spent a bit of time with Slavoj Žižek.

00:30:28.740 I was the unofficial tour manager

00:30:30.160 when he gave some talks in the north of England.

00:30:32.600 But I wouldn't trust him to run a bath,

00:30:35.580 never mind run a country.

00:30:37.360 So the idea that you use some of their ideas,

00:30:39.820 you see that as some type of guidance

00:30:44.380 for societal policy and stuff.

00:30:46.660 It's brilliant intellectually.

00:30:48.620 I think David Starkey made the point

00:30:50.120 that conservative thinkers aren't particularly interesting

00:30:55.280 because their intellectual ambition, by definition,

00:30:58.680 is limited to conserving things.

00:31:00.940 Whereas the wacky postmodernists,

00:31:02.540 well, we could talk about them potentially later on,

00:31:04.680 postmodernists,

00:31:05.600 because I don't even think necessarily they're left-wing,

00:31:08.000 which is another misunderstanding.

00:31:10.120 But lots of left-wing,

00:31:11.960 you can have ridiculous ideas

00:31:15.440 of where you could take theory in a practical sense.

00:31:17.900 You've had to suffer that in the Soviet Union.

00:31:20.600 But I don't see necessarily why it has to be that way

00:31:23.880 and why we have to take these ideas.

00:31:27.580 It's the lack of filtering.

00:31:29.680 It is one of the ironies that

00:31:30.800 the more you've expanded the universities,

00:31:32.860 the more you've let all that toxic theoretical discharge

00:31:37.300 get into society.

00:31:38.340 It doesn't have to be toxic,

00:31:39.900 but it can be.

00:31:41.300 Hey, Constantine,

00:31:42.640 do you like privacy?

00:31:44.220 Yes.

00:31:44.600 It's like going to the toilet.

00:31:45.920 What?

00:31:46.240 Well, not having a VPN

00:31:47.900 is like using the toilet

00:31:49.700 without shutting the door.

00:31:51.360 You don't want anyone

00:31:52.520 knowing your dirty business.

00:31:54.740 That's why I use ExpressVPN

00:31:56.800 and you should too.

00:31:58.340 We've interviewed Jordan Peterson,

00:32:00.040 Douglas Murray,

00:32:00.860 Lord Nigel Lawson,

00:32:01.960 as well as a whole host

00:32:03.320 of other great minds.

00:32:04.280 I thought this was an advert for ExpressVPN.

00:32:06.700 Yeah, and this is a simile you use,

00:32:08.640 toilet doors.

00:32:09.780 Why not mention that ExpressVPN

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00:32:13.240 between your device and the internet

00:32:14.860 so your online activity

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00:32:17.960 or that your internet service provider

00:32:19.900 knows every single website you visit.

00:32:22.640 They can sell this information

00:32:24.060 to ad companies and tech giants

00:32:25.760 who then use your data to target you,

00:32:28.280 which is why you need ExpressVPN.

00:32:30.020 I was just going to say.

00:32:31.300 Why didn't you mention it works on phones,

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00:32:40.720 click one button.

00:32:41.740 It's as easy as closing the bathroom door.

00:32:43.660 I thought the toilet was a great metaphor.

00:32:45.620 Yeah, okay.

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00:33:00.700 It's absolutely fascinating.

00:33:03.260 And the breakdown

00:33:04.000 and explaining what's been going on

00:33:05.900 and your own experiences.

00:33:08.220 To someone who is listening to this

00:33:10.120 and didn't go to university,

00:33:13.340 intellectually curious,

00:33:14.860 what is postmodernism?

00:33:16.580 Explain to that person

00:33:17.660 what postmodernism is

00:33:19.200 and then the effects

00:33:21.380 that it's having on society,

00:33:22.880 particularly universities,

00:33:23.840 at the moment.

00:33:25.440 Right.

00:33:26.080 It sounds like an academic answer,

00:33:27.820 but one of the problems is

00:33:29.040 if you ask what postmodernism is,

00:33:30.900 it's defined by various people

00:33:32.260 in various ways.

00:33:33.680 So I'll give you my definition,

00:33:36.220 but there will be people who disagree.

00:33:37.640 And this is one of the frustrating things.

00:33:39.240 If no one can agree on the definition,

00:33:40.960 how do you analyze it?

00:33:42.060 Very postmodern, by the way.

00:33:43.300 Exactly.

00:33:44.860 But I think the shortest version

00:33:46.520 would be to say that

00:33:47.400 it's a response to modernism.

00:33:50.560 And I think that's also

00:33:51.440 one of the misapprehensions.

00:33:52.420 Modernism defined as

00:33:53.620 in art and culture,

00:33:56.060 highly technologized societies.

00:33:59.080 So, you know,

00:33:59.380 Duchamp, I think,

00:34:00.460 David Starkey talked about that.

00:34:02.960 The fragmentation

00:34:03.840 of technological society,

00:34:07.200 modernist art

00:34:07.980 was trying to represent that

00:34:09.300 or engage with it.

00:34:11.440 And for me,

00:34:12.740 postmodernism

00:34:13.660 are intellectuals

00:34:15.360 struggling to think,

00:34:16.500 well, how do we

00:34:17.600 give them this fragmentation?

00:34:19.140 So Samuel Beckett,

00:34:20.680 people like that,

00:34:22.060 Sartre,

00:34:22.580 the existentialists,

00:34:24.220 everyone's trying to make sense

00:34:25.520 of what this technological society

00:34:27.060 has done.

00:34:28.200 And they came up against a brick wall

00:34:29.680 with existentialism.

00:34:31.000 So Sartre wrote

00:34:32.400 Critique of Dialectical Reason,

00:34:34.120 which took existentialism

00:34:35.980 and tried to make it Marxist.

00:34:39.300 And who else?

00:34:41.900 T.S. Eliot,

00:34:42.660 I think,

00:34:42.940 what's one of the ironers,

00:34:43.600 he was a conservative.

00:34:45.220 But in his poetry,

00:34:47.320 you know,

00:34:47.720 The Wasteland,

00:34:48.680 you know,

00:34:48.840 this isn't news,

00:34:49.620 but it's not full of giggles

00:34:50.980 and laughs.

00:34:52.160 It's dark, dark stuff.

00:34:54.840 The Hollow Men.

00:34:56.400 It describes my career,

00:34:57.720 actually.

00:34:57.940 I think at one point

00:34:58.460 in The Hollow Men,

00:34:59.040 they say,

00:34:59.560 this is how the world ends,

00:35:01.360 not with a bang,

00:35:02.200 but a whimper.

00:35:04.760 Mine ended,

00:35:05.660 my career ended with,

00:35:06.680 I did an online class

00:35:08.260 where none of the students

00:35:09.380 show their faces.

00:35:11.060 So it was like

00:35:11.660 some very ugly narcissists

00:35:13.080 looking in this screen,

00:35:14.320 this pool,

00:35:15.200 looking back at myself.

00:35:17.620 And one by one,

00:35:19.560 these non-faces

00:35:20.420 with just a name

00:35:21.180 disappeared off the screen.

00:35:22.940 And that was my last lecture ever.

00:35:24.980 So that was nice.

00:35:26.680 But anyway,

00:35:26.960 post-modernism.

00:35:28.400 Modernism is what it's reacting to.

00:35:30.960 And it's trying to make sense of that.

00:35:34.040 So there was a article

00:35:36.500 in the Telegraph.

00:35:38.100 By the time this goes out,

00:35:39.540 it would be maybe

00:35:40.000 about two Thursdays ago.

00:35:42.120 Nick Timothy,

00:35:43.380 who you might remember the name,

00:35:44.880 he was an advisor

00:35:45.720 to Theresa May.

00:35:47.240 So this is a bit like

00:35:48.000 the right-wing version

00:35:48.780 of Alastair Campbell.

00:35:50.660 Given Nick Timothy's performance

00:35:52.400 as a political advisor,

00:35:54.140 how does he get the gig

00:35:55.460 writing for a national newspaper?

00:35:57.080 He didn't seem to go very well

00:36:00.380 with Theresa.

00:36:01.760 But he does anti-blames

00:36:04.160 post-modernism

00:36:05.060 as people tend to do.

00:36:06.380 And he mentions specifically

00:36:07.400 Foucault and Derrida.

00:36:09.480 Now, so,

00:36:11.080 you can explain differently,

00:36:13.100 but if you took Foucault and Derrida,

00:36:14.680 this is someone writing

00:36:15.640 in a national newspaper,

00:36:17.100 they're his definition

00:36:17.880 of what post-modern thinkers are.

00:36:20.180 Foucault and Douglas Murray

00:36:21.540 has written negatively about Foucault.

00:36:23.140 But Foucault is a French thinker

00:36:24.540 who's trying to make sense

00:36:26.260 of these modern trends,

00:36:28.520 the alienating aspects

00:36:29.600 of technology.

00:36:31.140 And what he did

00:36:32.100 was look at various epochs

00:36:33.640 in history.

00:36:34.720 He called them epistemes.

00:36:36.900 And his argument was

00:36:38.300 that it's a,

00:36:41.440 what we can say intellectually,

00:36:44.000 how you conceptualize things,

00:36:46.120 is dominated by ways of thinking

00:36:49.100 that you may not even realize

00:36:50.440 you're being circumscribed by.

00:36:52.460 So if you took it back

00:36:53.180 to classical times,

00:36:54.280 they had notions of virtue.

00:36:57.100 They had notions of honor

00:36:59.000 that we just don't have.

00:37:03.040 So Socrates famously died.

00:37:07.140 He got offered a chance to escape.

00:37:09.280 He refused because he said

00:37:10.320 it was honor.

00:37:11.600 If you look at Sophocles' Antigone,

00:37:15.340 this is a story of a woman who,

00:37:18.000 it's a big internecine conflict

00:37:19.980 in a Greek city-state,

00:37:21.640 but her brother gets killed.

00:37:23.840 He tries to have a coup.

00:37:26.100 And the custom at the time

00:37:28.300 was you have to bury your relations.

00:37:30.840 And it was,

00:37:31.560 word was put out,

00:37:32.440 he's lying outside the city.

00:37:34.400 If anyone tries to bury him,

00:37:36.360 they will be killed.

00:37:37.740 And she buries him.

00:37:39.420 He says,

00:37:39.920 Sodja,

00:37:40.720 it's my blood.

00:37:42.020 I have to bury him.

00:37:43.100 That is the law.

00:37:44.600 So she goes to the wall

00:37:46.060 for the law.

00:37:47.940 There's the Spartans,

00:37:48.980 you know,

00:37:49.100 the Battle of Thermopylae.

00:37:50.700 There's that famous thing,

00:37:53.000 Oh,

00:37:53.320 stranger passing by.

00:37:55.140 What was it?

00:37:55.600 Oh,

00:37:55.760 stranger passing by.

00:37:56.960 Go tell the Spartans,

00:37:59.000 loyal to our customs,

00:38:00.780 here we lie.

00:38:01.840 So they all died

00:38:03.460 because they didn't want to portray

00:38:04.940 what it was to be a Spartan.

00:38:07.160 So that's an example

00:38:07.920 of classical times.

00:38:09.700 Modern times,

00:38:10.680 we don't think in that way.

00:38:12.940 So one of the obvious arguments is,

00:38:14.960 you know,

00:38:15.140 that the postmodernists

00:38:16.120 are defined as being relativists.

00:38:18.640 There's no absolute truth.

00:38:20.960 Nothing really matters.

00:38:22.500 And I just think

00:38:22.940 it's a massive mischaracterization.

00:38:25.700 Richard Rorty

00:38:26.600 is another postmodernist.

00:38:29.720 And he was,

00:38:30.600 someone said to him,

00:38:31.040 are you a postmodernist

00:38:32.160 or a nihilist?

00:38:33.900 And he said,

00:38:34.360 neither.

00:38:34.700 I'm an ethnocentrist.

00:38:37.020 And what he meant by that was,

00:38:38.560 he said,

00:38:39.540 he found American

00:38:41.340 democratic values.

00:38:43.480 It was very unusual

00:38:44.240 for doing this.

00:38:45.200 He said,

00:38:45.460 American democratic values

00:38:47.020 are actually

00:38:48.400 what's worked the best.

00:38:50.420 So he didn't believe in truth.

00:38:52.540 And he quipped,

00:38:53.340 he got taken up for it.

00:38:54.440 I think it was mostly joking.

00:38:55.980 He said,

00:38:56.420 the truth

00:38:57.160 is what your peers

00:38:58.840 will allow you

00:38:59.540 to get away with saying.

00:39:01.480 But he had this strong sense of,

00:39:03.540 like science,

00:39:04.040 it's all knowledge

00:39:04.660 is tested.

00:39:05.900 And in any given environment,

00:39:08.100 the truth will be

00:39:09.160 what survives

00:39:09.960 the testing process.

00:39:11.840 So Einstein eventually

00:39:13.260 overtook

00:39:13.820 at a subatomic level.

00:39:15.320 Newtonian physics

00:39:16.160 doesn't work.

00:39:17.420 So Newtonian physics

00:39:18.480 was the episteme.

00:39:20.200 It was the way of thinking.

00:39:21.840 And that controlled

00:39:22.740 how we were able

00:39:23.580 to think about gravity.

00:39:25.480 Einstein comes along

00:39:26.680 and actually,

00:39:28.220 he's rewritten

00:39:28.960 and that's still

00:39:29.700 using technology now.

00:39:31.960 There was something

00:39:32.580 in the paper about

00:39:33.440 in a black hole,

00:39:35.040 they're finding

00:39:35.780 that Einstein's theory

00:39:38.200 is being borne out.

00:39:39.080 They can see

00:39:39.580 what's happening,

00:39:40.400 but they think

00:39:41.400 they might be coming

00:39:42.040 to the point

00:39:42.700 when Einstein's theory

00:39:44.160 is stretched to the limit.

00:39:45.920 So,

00:39:46.700 that's a Foucaultian idea.

00:39:49.760 Now,

00:39:50.360 I don't know

00:39:50.760 what you think.

00:39:51.560 I don't see

00:39:52.320 the idea

00:39:52.740 that truth is relative.

00:39:55.180 They mean it

00:39:56.080 in quite a specific way.

00:39:57.240 And Derrida

00:39:59.880 is the other guy.

00:40:01.400 He's often labelled

00:40:02.520 as he doesn't believe

00:40:03.340 in a concept of truth.

00:40:04.940 What he actually means

00:40:06.100 is

00:40:06.520 things are incommensurable.

00:40:09.940 So,

00:40:10.220 one of the examples

00:40:10.820 is a brilliant guy

00:40:11.740 if people want to check this out

00:40:13.060 because it is complicated.

00:40:15.440 But there's a guy

00:40:16.100 called

00:40:16.700 Chris Watkin

00:40:18.580 who,

00:40:19.840 he's like my doppelganger.

00:40:21.680 I'm like

00:40:22.240 Dr. Jekyll.

00:40:24.440 He's like Mr. Hyde.

00:40:25.460 He's really nice.

00:40:27.480 And he'll say things

00:40:28.400 that he'll be asked

00:40:28.860 a really stupid question.

00:40:30.620 And he'll say

00:40:31.380 that's a wonderful

00:40:32.740 helpful question.

00:40:33.640 Thank you.

00:40:34.420 And then explain it.

00:40:35.780 But he does Derrida and Foucault

00:40:36.780 and he's from the Reformed Church.

00:40:38.620 So,

00:40:38.800 he's actually

00:40:39.180 a card-carrying

00:40:41.080 banner-waving Christian.

00:40:42.940 And he engages

00:40:43.700 with Derrida and Foucault

00:40:44.940 and applies them

00:40:46.900 to old

00:40:47.980 biblical scriptures.

00:40:49.960 And

00:40:50.180 he makes the point

00:40:51.540 that

00:40:51.840 with Derrida

00:40:52.640 it's like saying

00:40:54.240 if

00:40:54.800 someone nearest

00:40:55.600 and dearest to you

00:40:56.600 you said

00:40:57.080 how much would it take

00:40:58.140 before you'd agree

00:40:58.820 to have them killed?

00:41:00.660 And this is a bad question

00:41:01.700 for me

00:41:02.160 because I just have

00:41:02.820 a tariff.

00:41:04.080 You just take notes.

00:41:06.720 He's got his card

00:41:07.680 laminated.

00:41:08.560 Yeah, exactly.

00:41:09.340 I know my figure.

00:41:11.000 But I think the point

00:41:11.840 That's comforting.

00:41:12.540 Thanks, mate.

00:41:13.020 I think the point

00:41:14.000 Chris Watkins

00:41:14.840 is trying to make

00:41:15.680 is that

00:41:16.300 well actually

00:41:16.920 you can't put a value

00:41:19.260 on your nearest

00:41:19.940 and dearest

00:41:20.180 it's an incommensurable

00:41:21.040 question.

00:41:22.540 So in that sense

00:41:23.240 truth is relative.

00:41:24.900 And

00:41:25.020 that's the short version

00:41:26.500 it'll give lots of

00:41:27.440 ethical examples

00:41:28.320 from Christianity.

00:41:30.180 Do you think

00:41:30.920 this is part of the problem

00:41:32.100 though

00:41:32.380 in that

00:41:32.960 we are talking

00:41:33.820 about these topics

00:41:34.960 whether it's

00:41:35.440 post-modernism

00:41:36.500 whether it's

00:41:37.200 all of these

00:41:37.860 you know

00:41:38.160 big terms

00:41:39.540 schools of thought

00:41:40.740 and then

00:41:41.700 people are talking

00:41:42.760 about them

00:41:43.240 in the media

00:41:44.220 people are talking

00:41:45.320 about them

00:41:45.780 in their workplace

00:41:46.360 and the problem

00:41:47.180 is

00:41:47.600 is that

00:41:48.000 most people

00:41:48.780 to put it

00:41:49.660 bluntly

00:41:50.020 haven't done

00:41:50.720 the reading

00:41:51.200 and they're having

00:41:52.540 discussions about

00:41:53.440 things that they

00:41:53.980 fundamentally

00:41:54.620 don't understand.

00:41:56.740 Well it's

00:41:56.940 Richard Grannon

00:41:57.500 interview

00:41:57.880 I'll take you

00:41:58.300 back to that

00:41:58.920 and it was

00:41:59.740 interesting

00:42:00.200 I know

00:42:00.960 I don't think

00:42:01.540 it was

00:42:01.780 you're making

00:42:02.660 a serious point

00:42:03.540 Constantine

00:42:04.020 but you did

00:42:04.480 say at one point

00:42:05.400 thinking isn't

00:42:06.480 power

00:42:06.860 so give me

00:42:08.920 some practical

00:42:09.400 examples

00:42:09.940 and Richard

00:42:11.540 Grannon

00:42:11.860 did the

00:42:12.380 Chris Watkin

00:42:12.980 thing

00:42:13.320 thank you

00:42:14.320 but then

00:42:15.420 if you actually

00:42:15.740 listen to what

00:42:16.240 he said

00:42:16.540 he basically

00:42:16.900 he's saying

00:42:17.280 it was a stupid

00:42:17.800 question

00:42:18.260 what he actually

00:42:19.520 then went on

00:42:20.040 to say was

00:42:20.420 we need to

00:42:20.780 think more

00:42:21.240 and we need

00:42:22.660 to have

00:42:22.980 the Socratic

00:42:23.500 method

00:42:23.920 and there's

00:42:25.100 a point

00:42:25.440 that Theodore

00:42:26.040 Adorno

00:42:26.380 has this

00:42:26.780 beautiful phrase

00:42:27.480 where he said

00:42:27.840 when the doors

00:42:28.360 are barricaded

00:42:29.080 it's doubly

00:42:29.660 important

00:42:30.100 thought not

00:42:30.680 be interrupted

00:42:31.320 and he's

00:42:32.580 one of the

00:42:33.300 points of that

00:42:33.900 is that

00:42:34.400 when it's

00:42:35.040 all kicking

00:42:35.460 off

00:42:36.020 like Newcastle

00:42:38.000 on a

00:42:38.220 Saturday night

00:42:38.780 people have

00:42:41.740 this reaction

00:42:42.400 it's like

00:42:42.880 let's go

00:42:43.320 and do

00:42:43.600 something

00:42:43.980 and often

00:42:45.200 they go

00:42:45.540 down the

00:42:45.920 wrong

00:42:46.220 so I'll

00:42:46.980 give you

00:42:47.160 one very

00:42:47.580 specific

00:42:48.040 hopefully

00:42:48.400 helpful

00:42:48.720 example

00:42:49.140 to listeners

00:42:49.640 or viewers

00:42:50.160 Bob Geldof

00:42:51.680 Live Aid

00:42:52.580 he did

00:42:55.420 this

00:42:55.700 I remember

00:42:57.160 the original

00:42:57.560 he's swearing

00:42:58.120 at the television

00:42:58.580 saying

00:42:58.920 don't bother

00:42:59.940 about credit

00:43:00.420 cards

00:43:00.680 sending cash

00:43:01.400 or something

00:43:01.700 he's swearing

00:43:02.620 in his Irish

00:43:03.180 accent

00:43:03.620 fast forward

00:43:05.260 he's on

00:43:06.280 the Thames

00:43:06.940 lobbying abuse

00:43:08.160 at Nigel

00:43:08.780 Farage

00:43:09.320 about the

00:43:10.300 EU

00:43:10.660 now

00:43:11.840 the whole

00:43:14.480 point about

00:43:15.140 Live Aid

00:43:15.860 was you're

00:43:16.740 dealing with

00:43:17.480 the symptom

00:43:18.140 of African

00:43:19.240 poverty

00:43:19.720 now I'd

00:43:21.220 argue from

00:43:21.800 an economic

00:43:22.300 having economics

00:43:23.100 background

00:43:23.500 one of the

00:43:24.020 major problems

00:43:24.820 of African

00:43:26.020 poverty

00:43:26.640 not everything

00:43:27.940 but a major

00:43:28.640 element is

00:43:29.220 African farmers

00:43:30.400 have never been

00:43:30.940 able to compete

00:43:31.680 on an equal

00:43:32.580 playing field

00:43:33.260 with places

00:43:34.780 like the EU

00:43:35.420 why

00:43:35.800 because it's

00:43:36.260 not

00:43:36.440 they don't

00:43:36.740 have free

00:43:37.080 access

00:43:37.440 there's

00:43:38.500 tariffs

00:43:38.920 so if

00:43:41.140 Bob Geldof

00:43:42.140 wanted to

00:43:42.800 do one

00:43:43.680 practical thing

00:43:44.380 if he genuinely

00:43:45.020 cared about

00:43:45.440 the African

00:43:45.800 people

00:43:46.320 he'd be

00:43:47.200 banging on

00:43:47.640 the doors

00:43:48.180 in Brussels

00:43:48.880 saying give

00:43:50.040 African farmers

00:43:50.980 access

00:43:51.580 and that

00:43:53.460 would

00:43:53.780 but no

00:43:54.540 we want

00:43:55.200 Italian

00:43:55.940 French

00:43:56.420 farmers

00:43:56.900 to be

00:43:58.120 subsidised

00:43:58.680 so that

00:43:59.980 was the

00:44:00.220 point about

00:44:00.780 Bob Geldof

00:44:02.700 did something

00:44:03.100 incredibly

00:44:03.480 practical

00:44:03.980 he got

00:44:04.940 off his

00:44:05.200 backside

00:44:05.560 people

00:44:05.900 will

00:44:06.120 laud him

00:44:06.720 but then

00:44:08.000 he seems

00:44:08.380 completely

00:44:08.880 oblivious

00:44:09.560 because

00:44:09.940 he's a

00:44:10.580 celebrity

00:44:11.040 and he's

00:44:12.460 famous

00:44:12.800 for being

00:44:13.180 famous

00:44:13.800 he's not

00:44:15.540 stupid

00:44:16.320 but also

00:44:16.880 I don't

00:44:17.120 think he's

00:44:17.440 half as

00:44:17.780 bright as

00:44:18.140 he thinks

00:44:18.460 he is

00:44:18.840 and another

00:44:20.360 example

00:44:20.760 would be

00:44:21.100 I want to

00:44:22.680 get this

00:44:23.000 off my

00:44:23.300 chest

00:44:23.600 have you

00:44:24.560 ever seen

00:44:24.900 there's a

00:44:25.200 Norwegian

00:44:25.740 I think

00:44:26.400 Swedish

00:44:26.820 co-production

00:44:27.340 called

00:44:27.660 Scavlin

00:44:28.240 he was a

00:44:29.640 journalist

00:44:30.180 and they're

00:44:30.940 on YouTube

00:44:31.440 he did a

00:44:31.940 series of

00:44:32.220 interviews

00:44:32.480 quite big

00:44:33.020 names

00:44:33.480 Jordan

00:44:36.680 Peterson

00:44:37.100 Richard

00:44:37.480 Dawkins

00:44:37.900 these type

00:44:38.380 of people

00:44:38.720 he'd

00:44:38.920 interview

00:44:39.260 and he

00:44:40.120 had

00:44:40.280 Jarvis

00:44:40.680 Cocker

00:44:41.140 on

00:44:41.360 and it's

00:44:42.740 all done

00:44:43.040 in English

00:44:43.520 which is

00:44:44.320 helpful

00:44:44.700 but Jarvis

00:44:46.480 Cocker

00:44:46.980 went on

00:44:47.500 this rant

00:44:47.960 about Brexit

00:44:48.680 and he

00:44:50.200 was saying

00:44:50.700 it was

00:44:51.500 what was

00:44:53.640 he saying

00:44:53.960 basically

00:44:54.440 he made

00:44:55.220 analogies

00:44:55.780 with the

00:44:56.560 music industry

00:44:57.300 and said

00:44:58.160 that occasionally

00:44:58.800 you'll get

00:44:59.500 a record

00:45:01.180 that will

00:45:01.820 get to

00:45:02.180 number one

00:45:02.640 from nowhere

00:45:03.240 and he

00:45:03.520 said it's

00:45:03.780 very dodgy

00:45:04.480 and he

00:45:05.580 didn't really

00:45:05.920 have an

00:45:06.200 argument

00:45:06.460 apart from

00:45:07.160 it

00:45:07.300 overwhelmingly

00:45:07.960 what came

00:45:08.560 across

00:45:08.880 was Jarvis

00:45:09.520 Cocker

00:45:09.980 didn't like

00:45:11.260 the fact

00:45:11.840 that Britain

00:45:12.940 had voted

00:45:13.360 to leave

00:45:13.760 the EU

00:45:14.180 and you

00:45:15.020 can ask

00:45:15.300 many

00:45:15.500 questions

00:45:15.920 about that

00:45:16.360 but one

00:45:16.680 is

00:45:16.940 why do

00:45:18.100 we care

00:45:18.400 what Jarvis

00:45:18.920 Cocker

00:45:19.260 thinks

00:45:19.680 he gets

00:45:20.920 that platform

00:45:21.580 because he's

00:45:22.220 made a song

00:45:22.760 ironically

00:45:23.200 called

00:45:23.520 common

00:45:23.820 people

00:45:24.260 so he

00:45:24.860 claims to

00:45:25.360 understand

00:45:25.720 common

00:45:26.080 people

00:45:26.520 and I

00:45:27.720 just thought

00:45:28.240 you know

00:45:28.580 what an

00:45:30.020 absolute

00:45:30.460 tosser

00:45:30.920 you've

00:45:31.180 completely

00:45:31.720 misunderstood

00:45:33.360 and if I

00:45:34.400 can ask

00:45:34.700 you two

00:45:35.000 a question

00:45:35.360 you know

00:45:35.660 you probably

00:45:36.600 won't be aware

00:45:37.200 but you know

00:45:37.540 the Welsh

00:45:38.180 voted for

00:45:39.040 devolution

00:45:39.480 in 1997

00:45:40.980 so they had

00:45:43.160 a Welsh

00:45:43.440 assembly

00:45:43.840 do you know

00:45:44.620 what the

00:45:44.920 turnout was

00:45:45.640 it was

00:45:46.760 I think

00:45:47.360 it was

00:45:47.560 50.2%

00:45:48.740 of the people

00:45:49.340 turned out

00:45:50.020 do you know

00:45:50.880 what the

00:45:51.120 majority

00:45:51.560 it was a

00:45:51.960 binary question

00:45:52.640 do you want

00:45:53.120 a Welsh

00:45:53.440 assembly

00:45:53.840 or do you

00:45:54.600 not

00:45:54.900 do you know

00:45:55.720 what the

00:45:56.060 winning

00:45:56.440 percentage

00:45:57.160 was

00:45:57.560 0.6%

00:45:59.780 and guess

00:46:01.560 what

00:46:01.880 we got

00:46:03.740 a Welsh

00:46:04.040 assembly

00:46:04.440 without a

00:46:05.680 big fuss

00:46:06.140 well because

00:46:07.240 it was

00:46:08.160 it was

00:46:08.500 explained

00:46:09.620 this is the

00:46:10.340 question

00:46:10.760 there weren't

00:46:12.020 any limits

00:46:12.500 it was only

00:46:13.000 just 50%

00:46:13.780 of the population

00:46:14.500 if you don't

00:46:15.400 care enough

00:46:15.820 to vote

00:46:16.200 you don't

00:46:16.620 have a say

00:46:17.220 winner

00:46:18.420 takes all

00:46:19.040 I can't

00:46:20.100 I've never

00:46:20.780 ever seen

00:46:21.420 anyone

00:46:21.820 in any

00:46:22.520 media

00:46:22.880 format

00:46:23.320 complain

00:46:24.360 that this

00:46:24.660 was a

00:46:24.900 travesty

00:46:25.700 or a

00:46:26.040 stitch up

00:46:26.560 so Jarvis

00:46:27.740 well it's

00:46:28.260 one of the

00:46:28.900 if you look

00:46:30.360 at the

00:46:30.580 genesis of

00:46:31.140 trigonometry

00:46:31.640 with me

00:46:32.000 and Francis

00:46:32.440 one of the

00:46:32.980 things that

00:46:33.500 we both

00:46:34.200 found

00:46:34.540 and I

00:46:35.320 don't use

00:46:36.380 this term

00:46:36.800 lightly

00:46:37.080 I was

00:46:37.700 disgusted

00:46:38.560 by the way

00:46:40.340 that people

00:46:41.260 reacted to

00:46:42.460 their vote

00:46:43.160 and by the way

00:46:43.660 as you well

00:46:44.140 know Francis

00:46:44.680 and I

00:46:44.960 both voted

00:46:45.420 remain in

00:46:45.960 that referendum

00:46:46.540 but the

00:46:47.500 idea that

00:46:48.280 because you

00:46:49.040 didn't get

00:46:49.680 the result

00:46:50.400 you wanted

00:46:50.960 out of a

00:46:51.460 referendum

00:46:51.920 that you

00:46:52.760 are entitled

00:46:53.400 to undermine

00:46:54.380 the result

00:46:54.920 that you're

00:46:55.380 entitled to

00:46:55.920 try to

00:46:56.320 overturn the

00:46:56.960 result

00:46:57.120 I mean I've

00:46:57.520 told the

00:46:57.800 story before

00:46:58.320 but I'll

00:46:58.700 tell it again

00:46:59.080 I was in

00:46:59.460 having a

00:47:00.340 meal with

00:47:00.680 some friends

00:47:01.360 from my

00:47:01.720 translation days

00:47:02.780 when I was

00:47:04.620 in Edinburgh

00:47:05.420 for the

00:47:05.800 festival

00:47:06.160 and there

00:47:07.500 was a

00:47:08.080 French girl

00:47:08.620 there

00:47:08.860 and she

00:47:09.260 was

00:47:09.380 I don't

00:47:10.240 know what

00:47:10.500 the problem

00:47:10.880 is

00:47:11.200 in France

00:47:11.720 we had

00:47:12.100 the vote

00:47:12.560 and it

00:47:13.460 did not

00:47:13.760 go away

00:47:14.200 so we

00:47:14.620 did it

00:47:14.960 again

00:47:15.280 and she

00:47:16.560 looked at

00:47:16.900 me as if

00:47:17.260 I was

00:47:17.500 supposed to

00:47:17.880 like clap

00:47:18.860 along to

00:47:19.300 this

00:47:19.460 it was

00:47:20.300 outrageous

00:47:21.060 and I

00:47:22.180 completely

00:47:22.600 agree with

00:47:23.080 you

00:47:23.260 sorry to interrupt

00:47:24.040 but as you're

00:47:24.980 saying that

00:47:25.460 there was a

00:47:25.860 documentary where

00:47:26.520 Francois Hollande

00:47:27.480 was interviewed

00:47:28.720 and I think it

00:47:29.240 might have even

00:47:29.600 been a BBC

00:47:30.120 documentary when I

00:47:30.880 still watch the

00:47:31.400 BBC

00:47:31.720 that's how long

00:47:32.740 ago it was

00:47:33.300 and he

00:47:34.560 basically said to

00:47:35.320 the interviewer

00:47:36.160 why did you

00:47:37.720 not just ignore

00:47:38.380 the vote

00:47:38.780 and it was

00:47:39.980 cold seriousness

00:47:40.960 it's your point

00:47:41.920 this is how these

00:47:42.720 people think

00:47:43.240 and so for us

00:47:44.420 as two people

00:47:45.400 who actually

00:47:46.020 believe in

00:47:47.080 democracy

00:47:47.580 and in

00:47:48.040 fair play

00:47:48.540 and justice

00:47:49.220 and which are

00:47:49.780 all British

00:47:50.360 values by the

00:47:51.080 way that we've

00:47:51.560 seemed to

00:47:51.860 forgotten about

00:47:52.460 we were both

00:47:54.560 indignant at

00:47:56.120 that in itself

00:47:56.900 and then of

00:47:57.420 course the

00:47:57.860 other thing

00:47:58.240 which is anyone

00:47:58.860 who disagrees

00:47:59.440 with me is a

00:47:59.960 massive racist

00:48:00.620 and all of

00:48:01.120 that just

00:48:01.600 complete lies

00:48:02.780 and I felt

00:48:03.760 very

00:48:04.220 I was disgusted

00:48:06.880 by it

00:48:07.260 you can't

00:48:07.900 just

00:48:08.240 I mean

00:48:09.680 when democracy

00:48:10.940 does not go

00:48:11.520 your way

00:48:11.940 whether that's

00:48:12.980 Donald Trump

00:48:13.580 and his

00:48:14.120 non-election

00:48:15.120 right

00:48:15.900 or Brexit

00:48:17.440 or whatever

00:48:17.940 democracy relies

00:48:19.240 on losers

00:48:19.620 consent

00:48:20.000 that's what

00:48:20.820 that's about

00:48:21.240 and the moment

00:48:21.720 you start

00:48:22.160 messing with

00:48:22.660 that program

00:48:23.220 you're going

00:48:23.940 down a very

00:48:24.520 dark path

00:48:25.140 very very

00:48:25.860 quickly

00:48:26.180 so I hear

00:48:27.440 you on that

00:48:27.780 but coming

00:48:28.400 back to your

00:48:28.900 point about

00:48:29.560 thinking

00:48:30.800 versus doing

00:48:31.840 I think

00:48:32.420 what we were

00:48:34.020 talking about

00:48:34.440 with Richard

00:48:34.860 is that

00:48:36.460 I agree

00:48:38.140 with you

00:48:38.520 that when

00:48:39.140 we're talking

00:48:39.680 about

00:48:40.000 and I want

00:48:40.600 to ask you

00:48:40.960 about what

00:48:41.280 you think

00:48:41.700 is actually

00:48:42.100 going on

00:48:42.700 because it's

00:48:43.880 not post-modernism

00:48:44.720 in your conception

00:48:45.400 the fact

00:48:46.340 of the matter

00:48:46.780 is that

00:48:47.580 no matter

00:48:48.040 what ideas

00:48:48.840 you have

00:48:49.500 at the end

00:48:50.420 of the day

00:48:50.800 that is not

00:48:51.240 going to change

00:48:52.060 reality out there

00:48:53.680 right

00:48:54.020 if you're concerned

00:48:54.960 about the university

00:48:55.780 or you're concerned

00:48:56.700 about the media

00:48:57.440 or if you're concerned

00:48:58.080 about any of those

00:48:58.740 things

00:48:59.020 there is something

00:49:00.060 that you're going

00:49:00.660 to have to do

00:49:01.480 once you've decided

00:49:02.920 what that is

00:49:03.500 once you've thought

00:49:04.140 about it

00:49:04.540 once you've had

00:49:05.060 the ideas

00:49:05.600 and conceptions

00:49:06.380 and structures

00:49:07.000 and whatever

00:49:07.440 someone somewhere

00:49:08.940 is going to have

00:49:09.480 to do something

00:49:10.140 to change

00:49:10.640 those things

00:49:11.180 and so for me

00:49:12.280 for example

00:49:12.840 with the media

00:49:13.620 what you're talking

00:49:14.580 about is

00:49:15.040 we are sitting

00:49:16.040 right here

00:49:16.480 doing this

00:49:17.240 we are changing

00:49:18.540 the media

00:49:19.040 by doing this

00:49:20.600 if we were just

00:49:21.500 thinking

00:49:22.000 if you were

00:49:23.020 sitting at home

00:49:23.660 and he was

00:49:24.160 sitting at home

00:49:24.740 and I was sitting

00:49:25.220 at home

00:49:25.480 and we were

00:49:26.000 having ideas

00:49:26.940 about how the media

00:49:28.300 ought to be different

00:49:29.060 we'd be in a very

00:49:30.060 different position

00:49:30.760 because this

00:49:31.420 wouldn't exist

00:49:31.980 and people

00:49:32.320 wouldn't be

00:49:32.700 watching this

00:49:33.220 and they wouldn't

00:49:33.680 go oh

00:49:34.380 three people

00:49:35.040 can sit down

00:49:35.640 and have a

00:49:36.020 rational conversation

00:49:36.900 for an hour

00:49:37.540 and so I think

00:49:39.000 doing and thinking

00:49:40.680 they will go

00:49:41.700 hand in hand

00:49:42.280 what you're talking

00:49:42.960 about is

00:49:43.520 very much

00:49:44.260 the Thomas Sowell

00:49:44.920 thing

00:49:45.160 which is

00:49:45.600 people who do

00:49:46.280 things that

00:49:46.740 make them feel

00:49:47.260 good

00:49:47.480 instead of

00:49:47.920 things that

00:49:48.260 actually make

00:49:48.800 the right

00:49:49.180 difference

00:49:49.600 I think what

00:49:50.600 I'm also doing

00:49:51.200 is I totally

00:49:51.940 agree

00:49:52.300 and I knew

00:49:53.220 when you were

00:49:53.680 talking with

00:49:54.300 Richard

00:49:54.620 it wasn't

00:49:55.220 the point

00:49:56.440 I wasn't

00:49:56.840 trying to

00:49:57.140 misrepresent it

00:49:57.960 it wasn't

00:49:58.300 the only

00:49:58.660 aspect you were

00:50:00.320 mentioning

00:50:00.660 and I totally

00:50:02.200 and I think

00:50:02.560 David Starkey

00:50:03.420 mentioned about

00:50:04.060 it's like being

00:50:04.540 under an elephant

00:50:05.300 you can poke

00:50:06.280 the irony is

00:50:07.580 I'm retired

00:50:08.200 I've wanted to

00:50:09.120 come into the

00:50:09.620 music MC Hammer

00:50:10.600 can't touch this

00:50:11.420 but that is

00:50:14.000 profoundly sad

00:50:15.200 yes

00:50:15.800 the fact that

00:50:16.600 I'm here

00:50:17.120 because

00:50:17.820 and I did

00:50:18.720 to be fair to me

00:50:19.580 which I do

00:50:19.900 like to be

00:50:20.480 I was writing

00:50:21.940 in the 19

00:50:22.700 the turn of

00:50:24.460 the 2000s

00:50:25.260 2003 I wrote

00:50:26.460 an article

00:50:26.920 about the

00:50:27.960 bureaucracy

00:50:28.440 and Frank

00:50:29.660 Feradis

00:50:30.260 you know

00:50:30.940 ignore me

00:50:31.580 go and read

00:50:32.000 a lot of his

00:50:32.500 stuff

00:50:32.820 he'd been

00:50:33.880 writing about

00:50:34.460 this book

00:50:34.860 after book

00:50:35.320 after book

00:50:36.280 so this

00:50:37.080 has been

00:50:37.340 going on

00:50:37.820 but the

00:50:38.120 slight

00:50:38.480 I'm not

00:50:38.940 sure I'm

00:50:39.220 disagreeing

00:50:39.720 with you

00:50:39.920 but it's

00:50:40.300 just that

00:50:40.720 yeah doing

00:50:41.740 all this

00:50:42.280 stuff is

00:50:42.920 but one

00:50:43.920 point I'd

00:50:44.360 make is

00:50:44.840 the fact

00:50:46.100 that you're

00:50:46.560 having to

00:50:46.980 do this

00:50:47.420 you're taking

00:50:48.080 risks

00:50:48.460 you're being

00:50:48.960 entrepreneurial

00:50:49.620 where all

00:50:50.620 three of us

00:50:51.480 I think I

00:50:52.120 still pay

00:50:52.540 just about

00:50:52.860 pay tax

00:50:53.440 we're paying

00:50:54.940 for a national

00:50:55.940 broadcaster to

00:50:56.880 insult us on a

00:50:57.680 daily basis

00:50:58.380 that gets my

00:50:59.600 goat

00:50:59.960 I get it

00:51:00.900 so apart

00:51:02.620 from anything

00:51:03.000 else I

00:51:03.920 demand my

00:51:05.220 right not to

00:51:06.000 pay to be

00:51:06.420 insulted

00:51:06.840 I agree

00:51:07.600 with you

00:51:07.860 but my

00:51:08.520 point is to

00:51:09.120 you is

00:51:09.560 thinking about

00:51:10.500 that and

00:51:10.960 being indignant

00:51:11.640 about isn't

00:51:12.200 going to change

00:51:12.660 anything

00:51:13.000 but anyway

00:51:15.140 let's not dwell

00:51:16.160 on that

00:51:16.420 because actually

00:51:16.960 I think the

00:51:17.940 most fascinating

00:51:18.620 question to ask

00:51:19.520 you is what

00:51:21.240 you think is

00:51:22.000 going on in

00:51:22.960 the world

00:51:23.280 where is all

00:51:24.460 this stuff that

00:51:25.120 we talk about

00:51:25.800 on the show

00:51:26.300 the stuff that

00:51:27.940 is destroying

00:51:28.620 universities a

00:51:29.620 step at a

00:51:30.040 time what is

00:51:31.300 going on and

00:51:31.920 where's that come

00:51:32.520 from

00:51:32.680 well it

00:51:32.900 relates to

00:51:33.360 what we've

00:51:33.620 just been

00:51:33.900 talking about

00:51:34.500 in the sense

00:51:34.920 I get the

00:51:35.480 sense and

00:51:35.920 you chip in

00:51:36.660 if you think

00:51:37.120 I'm going

00:51:37.540 off on one

00:51:38.160 but it's

00:51:38.640 this we go

00:51:39.960 around in

00:51:40.420 circles

00:51:40.940 so I mentioned

00:51:41.880 the misrepresentation

00:51:42.940 in my view

00:51:43.440 of what

00:51:43.640 post-modernism

00:51:44.320 is but if I

00:51:45.260 just throw out

00:51:45.780 another idea

00:51:46.260 if I say to

00:51:46.820 you anyone

00:51:47.280 heard of

00:51:47.680 Nietzsche

00:51:48.020 a lot of

00:51:49.200 people if

00:51:49.600 they have

00:51:49.900 heard of

00:51:50.240 them will

00:51:50.380 say oh

00:51:50.560 yeah isn't

00:51:50.920 that the

00:51:51.200 guy who

00:51:52.040 ended up

00:51:52.580 snogging a

00:51:53.020 horse and

00:51:53.940 went mad

00:51:54.480 and just

00:51:56.220 that's one

00:51:56.600 little example

00:51:57.340 the accusation

00:51:59.480 he snogged

00:51:59.980 a horse

00:52:00.440 because he

00:52:01.020 had syphilis

00:52:01.660 I think is

00:52:02.120 what goes

00:52:02.700 around

00:52:03.000 the syphilis

00:52:04.060 has never

00:52:04.340 been confirmed

00:52:05.040 and it's

00:52:05.760 actually highly

00:52:06.480 unlikely

00:52:06.920 because this

00:52:08.240 isn't from

00:52:08.600 personal experience

00:52:09.480 but tertiary

00:52:10.440 syphilis

00:52:11.000 takes about

00:52:12.720 two or three

00:52:13.160 years to

00:52:13.660 hit

00:52:13.900 he had

00:52:14.840 11 years

00:52:15.480 before he

00:52:15.940 died

00:52:16.280 but he

00:52:17.560 went

00:52:17.780 gar-gar

00:52:18.320 but they

00:52:18.780 think it

00:52:19.140 was a

00:52:19.480 benign

00:52:19.860 tumour

00:52:20.360 potentially

00:52:20.920 or they

00:52:21.280 they've

00:52:21.760 looked at

00:52:22.100 his medical

00:52:22.480 records

00:52:22.880 and tried

00:52:23.300 to

00:52:23.540 tertiary

00:52:24.340 syphilis

00:52:24.820 was the

00:52:25.400 default

00:52:25.900 diagnosis

00:52:26.680 so that's

00:52:27.520 just one

00:52:27.820 little example

00:52:28.440 it was the

00:52:28.820 covid of

00:52:29.280 its day

00:52:29.760 but at least

00:52:32.400 you enjoyed

00:52:32.900 getting syphilis

00:52:33.800 that's what

00:52:35.140 you think

00:52:35.580 well but

00:52:37.000 francis's point

00:52:37.820 is that people

00:52:38.520 are using terms

00:52:39.320 they don't know

00:52:39.960 about

00:52:40.200 yes so a

00:52:41.160 very quick

00:52:41.620 answer to

00:52:42.000 what you're

00:52:42.340 saying is

00:52:42.820 i think

00:52:44.160 what's

00:52:44.520 dominating

00:52:45.080 the problem

00:52:47.220 in our

00:52:47.760 society is

00:52:48.640 there's a

00:52:49.600 not even

00:52:50.200 it sounds like

00:52:50.820 conspiracy theorists

00:52:51.680 there's a

00:52:52.020 technocratic

00:52:52.740 and to call

00:52:54.240 them an elite

00:52:54.800 is wrong

00:52:55.300 because they're

00:52:56.480 heraldically

00:52:57.120 bad at

00:52:57.540 their jobs

00:52:58.060 but i

00:53:00.300 can't i

00:53:00.740 can't think

00:53:01.220 of a major

00:53:01.700 institution i

00:53:02.580 was moaning

00:53:03.200 too off camera

00:53:03.940 about the

00:53:04.540 situation our

00:53:05.280 train system

00:53:06.020 but there

00:53:07.200 are managers

00:53:08.120 to the

00:53:09.300 guilds in

00:53:10.240 all major

00:53:10.860 institutions in

00:53:11.760 this country

00:53:12.320 who on a

00:53:13.360 routine regular

00:53:14.800 basis can't

00:53:17.320 punch the

00:53:18.140 way out of a

00:53:18.500 wet paper

00:53:18.940 bag and

00:53:20.940 my but they

00:53:22.280 will give you

00:53:22.960 tabulations they

00:53:24.020 will give you

00:53:24.520 formulations it's

00:53:25.600 the neil ferguson

00:53:26.360 effect with

00:53:26.840 covid that

00:53:28.480 isn't any

00:53:29.240 system we

00:53:29.960 have apparently

00:53:31.320 to hold these

00:53:32.140 people to

00:53:32.620 account so

00:53:33.140 andrew dole's

00:53:33.740 been in this

00:53:34.200 chair and

00:53:35.100 said that it

00:53:35.680 doesn't matter

00:53:36.040 if you vote

00:53:36.500 whichever party

00:53:37.440 you're not

00:53:38.120 getting genuine

00:53:38.760 left or right

00:53:39.560 what you're

00:53:40.640 getting and

00:53:42.240 it reminded me

00:53:43.060 of i saw an

00:53:44.020 interview douglas

00:53:44.900 murray did with

00:53:45.660 ed vasey and

00:53:47.120 ed vasey's in the

00:53:48.000 lords now but i

00:53:48.720 think at one

00:53:49.100 point ed vasey

00:53:49.860 was culture

00:53:50.380 secretary and it

00:53:52.420 made me think

00:53:53.020 talking about

00:53:53.500 nietzsche it

00:53:53.920 made me think

00:53:54.280 of nietzsche's

00:53:54.780 last man

00:53:55.680 and douglas

00:53:57.420 murray you know

00:53:58.420 faults good

00:53:59.480 things i happen

00:54:00.880 to think he's

00:54:01.400 very good at a

00:54:02.240 lot of what he

00:54:02.640 does when he

00:54:04.580 was arguing with

00:54:05.180 ed vasey it

00:54:06.440 just became so

00:54:07.180 apparent to me

00:54:08.020 douglas had

00:54:09.240 integrity he

00:54:11.180 had a rational

00:54:11.780 argument that

00:54:12.520 everyone can agree

00:54:13.540 or disagree with

00:54:14.180 but you know what

00:54:14.720 he's saying and

00:54:15.860 he was arguing it

00:54:16.560 i think the

00:54:16.900 discussion was

00:54:17.380 about the

00:54:17.680 tate gallery and

00:54:18.920 they were

00:54:19.240 decolonizing it

00:54:20.100 i saw that

00:54:20.420 interview he was

00:54:21.260 very good in

00:54:21.740 that but ed

00:54:23.320 vasey wasn't

00:54:24.060 no and i'd

00:54:25.380 ask you why

00:54:26.300 do you think

00:54:26.760 ed vasey wasn't

00:54:27.780 my answer would

00:54:28.620 be because he's

00:54:30.300 a time-serving

00:54:31.120 technocrat who's

00:54:31.940 gone to the

00:54:32.400 lords i'd have a

00:54:34.300 different answer

00:54:34.820 for you well

00:54:35.440 my view is he's

00:54:36.800 a time-serving

00:54:37.420 technocrat he's

00:54:38.060 part of a club

00:54:38.980 i'll give you a

00:54:40.020 different example

00:54:40.640 that francis might

00:54:41.280 be more interested

00:54:41.920 in angela rayner

00:54:43.880 professional

00:54:45.380 northerner so

00:54:46.980 she's in the

00:54:47.420 commons never

00:54:48.240 loses an

00:54:48.920 opportunity

00:54:49.500 have you heard

00:54:53.080 her say one

00:54:53.920 single thing about

00:54:54.960 the grooming

00:54:55.320 gangs no as a

00:54:57.460 woman a white

00:54:58.560 woman from the

00:54:59.220 north of england

00:55:00.060 it's jaw-dropping

00:55:02.960 and my answer why

00:55:05.060 she's never said

00:55:05.980 anything and if

00:55:06.400 she has i

00:55:06.940 apologize but

00:55:07.700 she's certainly

00:55:08.160 not said it in

00:55:08.740 a high-profile

00:55:09.500 forum because

00:55:12.380 she's part of a

00:55:13.600 club whether

00:55:14.780 you're conservative

00:55:15.540 lib dem labor

00:55:16.560 even snp

00:55:17.540 you're part of a

00:55:18.980 club you've got

00:55:20.000 all these perks

00:55:20.900 you're you're

00:55:21.640 performing in the

00:55:22.720 media realm

00:55:23.780 they're not engaging

00:55:25.720 with genuine truth

00:55:26.960 they're not engaging

00:55:27.980 with genuine politics

00:55:29.080 so my answer to your

00:55:30.540 question is what's

00:55:31.440 going on we're

00:55:32.740 going around in a

00:55:33.640 loop where concepts

00:55:35.020 don't have genuine

00:55:35.820 depth because people

00:55:36.860 don't understand the

00:55:37.640 terms they're using

00:55:38.420 or they do and they

00:55:40.200 deliberately misuse

00:55:41.220 them so we could

00:55:43.060 talk about another

00:55:43.640 time but i think

00:55:44.180 stephen hicks i know

00:55:45.300 think you like him

00:55:46.160 but his analysis of

00:55:47.260 post-modernism is just

00:55:48.200 off the scale wrong

00:55:49.080 or at least if he

00:55:51.560 was prepared to say

00:55:52.320 this is applied

00:55:53.140 post-modernism and

00:55:55.200 it's people have

00:55:55.840 taken some ideas

00:55:56.800 mashed them up and

00:55:57.780 made a complete mess

00:55:58.620 of them then i'd

00:55:59.960 agree with him but

00:56:01.060 the way which he

00:56:01.780 talks about some of

00:56:02.680 these trends i just

00:56:04.360 think is profoundly

00:56:05.200 wrong but that's led

00:56:07.640 to and i get what

00:56:09.600 you're saying about

00:56:10.100 doing things but

00:56:11.300 one of i think the

00:56:12.400 strongest arguments

00:56:13.220 you and francis

00:56:14.080 keep putting forward

00:56:15.040 is we need rational

00:56:16.320 argument in good

00:56:17.160 faith who could

00:56:18.840 disagree with that

00:56:19.820 my crazy and i'm not

00:56:22.680 joking this is what i

00:56:23.680 was going to say

00:56:24.280 sorry yeah no no no

00:56:25.400 i think this is

00:56:26.340 fascinating by the way

00:56:27.320 i'm sure it would be

00:56:28.640 very interesting to

00:56:29.340 talk to stephen hicks

00:56:30.160 about and maybe even

00:56:30.900 have both of you on at

00:56:31.740 the same time for an

00:56:33.720 interview that would be

00:56:34.340 watched by about three

00:56:35.080 people about the

00:56:36.560 depths of post-modernism

00:56:37.680 but i think the reason

00:56:40.740 these people operate in

00:56:42.700 the way that they do

00:56:43.520 and i i think about

00:56:44.900 this because you know

00:56:45.940 i'm interested in

00:56:46.760 debating ideas and

00:56:48.120 communicating ideas and

00:56:49.700 and so on i think they

00:56:51.920 are captured by an

00:56:52.860 ideology that

00:56:54.460 essentially prevents them

00:56:56.160 from seeking the truth

00:56:57.320 and so if you're at

00:56:58.900 vasi and you're talking

00:56:59.820 about that particular

00:57:00.640 issue what that issue

00:57:02.020 is really about they

00:57:02.860 were talking about the

00:57:03.560 tape but it was in the

00:57:04.300 context of slavery racism

00:57:05.840 and all of that right

00:57:06.720 racism sexism uh

00:57:10.360 trans there are a few

00:57:12.140 issues on which if

00:57:13.740 you're part of this

00:57:14.820 sort of liberal elite in

00:57:16.600 an inverted commas you

00:57:18.560 have not irrationally

00:57:20.640 derived opinion but

00:57:21.660 received wisdom you

00:57:23.300 must think about this

00:57:24.420 this is where the mantra

00:57:25.300 trans women are women

00:57:26.220 comes from nobody who's

00:57:27.860 ever thought about

00:57:28.780 biology anatomy

00:57:30.140 rationality human nature

00:57:32.660 men and women child

00:57:34.200 birth any aspect of

00:57:35.840 humanity that is actually

00:57:36.920 real could possibly make

00:57:38.740 that statement in good

00:57:39.720 faith it is a statement

00:57:41.300 of faith it is a

00:57:43.140 statement of ideological

00:57:44.480 adherence

00:57:45.880 but i just jump in there

00:57:47.000 i'd slightly correct you

00:57:48.500 it's not good it's not

00:57:49.580 faith it's bad faith

00:57:50.860 what i mean is it's a

00:57:52.920 belief rather than

00:57:53.880 irrationally derived

00:57:54.940 opinion

00:57:55.400 yeah but except and

00:57:56.220 with someone like ed

00:57:57.300 vasi my point is he's

00:57:59.120 intelligent that this is

00:58:00.160 what makes it worse if i

00:58:01.980 thought ed vasi believed

00:58:03.540 a word he said i'd have

00:58:05.800 a little bit more

00:58:06.520 respect i believe i

00:58:07.500 believe that he does

00:58:08.180 believe what he says

00:58:08.840 he's bright enough he

00:58:10.960 knows what he's doing

00:58:12.240 and that's what saddens

00:58:13.420 me no one um it just

00:58:18.280 came into my mind as i'm

00:58:19.240 speaking that one of the

00:58:20.180 things that i finally

00:58:20.940 stopped watching the

00:58:21.620 bbc i will watch when

00:58:22.800 you're on question time

00:58:23.820 then i'll have to find

00:58:25.180 where i've put it on me

00:58:26.020 widescreen tv little um

00:58:28.100 thing but robert winston

00:58:30.580 so this is one of the

00:58:31.360 issues like how do you

00:58:32.240 talk about things yes

00:58:33.300 yeah robert winston you

00:58:35.200 can i can whisper on

00:58:36.160 about postmodernism

00:58:36.960 people think what's he

00:58:37.620 going on about no mark

00:58:39.380 very minor career robert

00:58:41.940 winston it's like if god

00:58:43.780 gave you the most

00:58:44.900 respected biologist in

00:58:46.700 this country it would be

00:58:48.820 robert winston yes he's

00:58:50.660 on question time he gave

00:58:52.520 what i thought i'm not

00:58:53.960 being critical that's an

00:58:55.700 anodyne answer about

00:58:57.280 because he was asked about

00:58:58.160 this trans issue about

00:58:59.440 chromosomes he explained the

00:59:01.640 basic biology about

00:59:02.780 chromosomes fiona bruce who's

00:59:05.540 the kathy newman of the

00:59:06.680 bbc so what you're saying

00:59:08.560 is um what fiona bruce then

00:59:11.360 said was when they passed

00:59:13.360 over the question i think i

00:59:14.520 need to point out at this

00:59:15.480 point there will be some

00:59:16.440 viewers at home who are

00:59:17.340 offended by what you've just

00:59:18.500 said how can you be

00:59:21.560 offended by the country's

00:59:23.500 most eminent biologist

00:59:24.860 giving you a couple of lines

00:59:26.660 from what used to be a basic

00:59:28.400 biology textbook

00:59:29.400 to me go sorry go for it

00:59:32.620 and i'll make my point if an

00:59:33.840 academic at that standard is

00:59:36.080 reduced to not being not even

00:59:38.300 going beyond a basic a level

00:59:40.640 biology book but then having so

00:59:43.720 he's it's in for a dig he's

00:59:45.380 performing at a level

00:59:46.440 exponentially below his

00:59:48.620 intellectual capability when it

00:59:49.880 comes to biology and even at that

00:59:52.240 low level he's been told by a

00:59:54.620 numbnut um presenter who thinks

00:59:57.920 because she sat in the church

00:59:59.320 she's the controller of the

01:00:01.100 knowledge he's been corrected so

01:00:05.140 my this is what i'd add to the

01:00:07.380 discussion is how do you have any

01:00:09.300 type of rational debate when the

01:00:10.740 people most qualified even in good

01:00:14.180 faith he wasn't saying anything

01:00:15.460 nasty they're shut down or they're

01:00:18.340 told that your argument is not

01:00:20.060 valid where does this rational

01:00:22.460 debate occur yeah it's got to

01:00:25.860 occur outside of these

01:00:27.360 institutions because the

01:00:28.540 institutions are corrupted

01:00:29.800 therefore you can't have good

01:00:31.340 faith rational debates in them

01:00:32.620 because they will be shut down

01:00:33.740 through the tools that we all

01:00:36.140 know that that they use so it has

01:00:38.720 to be in places like this but i

01:00:40.480 would also say to you paul there's

01:00:41.940 also a biological element to this

01:00:43.840 which is we are programmed to be

01:00:46.420 part of a tribe we are programmed to

01:00:48.900 want to be accepted because in the

01:00:51.080 days of the african savannah being

01:00:52.480 expelled from the tribe meant death

01:00:54.140 it meant being on your own i mean not

01:00:56.160 being able to hunt you'd be dead

01:00:57.340 within days so we don't want to be

01:01:00.400 expelled from the tribe we don't want

01:01:02.540 to be ostracized we don't want to be

01:01:04.580 alienated it's hardwired into us so to

01:01:08.460 go against the grain to stand up

01:01:10.380 against a mob that is a preserve of

01:01:13.580 very few people who in my dare i say

01:01:16.860 uneducated point of view that to me is

01:01:19.540 almost overriding your biology

01:01:21.320 but the trouble i have with that

01:01:25.120 argument is that it's the mob and this

01:01:27.140 is the role of my background in

01:01:28.800 studying technology the mob and you'll

01:01:30.880 well know the mob is the vocal mob on

01:01:32.980 twitter no but it's not but it but it's

01:01:35.700 also about but the mob i also mean the

01:01:38.760 people for instance let's say you do

01:01:40.940 let's say you say trans women aren't

01:01:43.080 women i don't let's say you work at the

01:01:44.840 bbc you say look i don't believe trans

01:01:46.600 women are women i believe a woman is an

01:01:49.460 adult human female now 10 years ago

01:01:51.560 that is that i mean you had that

01:01:54.400 conversation 10 years ago people would

01:01:56.080 look at you like you were a fucking

01:01:57.180 weirdo yeah exactly what you're saying

01:01:59.160 sorry i'm just i'm just clarifying your

01:02:00.620 mob though i think what you mean is it's

01:02:02.580 the institution of the bbc and the

01:02:04.160 dominant culture no but it but it's yeah

01:02:06.440 it's it is it's a dominant culture but

01:02:08.200 it's also the fear that there are people

01:02:10.980 within that institution who you may not

01:02:14.260 even know who may be nice to your face

01:02:16.220 who when they hear you say that will try

01:02:18.360 and get you fired as a result but that's

01:02:20.520 not my only slight i'm not being pedantic

01:02:22.080 probably will sound pedantic but what i'm

01:02:24.260 trying to say is that is not a mob as i

01:02:26.000 understand the mob my frustration is

01:02:27.980 you're what you're totally correct what

01:02:29.980 you're describing though is an institution

01:02:32.300 that is failing at its most basic level

01:02:35.080 the managers are failing agreed the people

01:02:37.780 yeah but this isn't a mob people are

01:02:40.140 scared because they don't want to be

01:02:41.660 part of the tribe this is a thomas soul

01:02:44.560 self-anointed mini tribe agreed who are

01:02:47.520 consciously and deliberately imposing

01:02:51.420 their values on the country i agreed i agree

01:02:53.720 and when i was i tell you the story

01:02:55.740 because it very much fits this narrative

01:02:57.900 i have a foreign name i have dark skin i

01:03:01.660 look a bit different i'm clearly not

01:03:03.640 british blah blah blah blah blah and i used

01:03:05.940 to go in and do this radio program on the

01:03:07.840 bbc when i was doing stand-up a couple of

01:03:10.660 nights a week and they'd invite me on and

01:03:13.600 there was this young woman there who works

01:03:15.820 at the bbc who would co-host it with me

01:03:17.860 and because i have a foreign name and

01:03:19.900 she she'd assume i'm one of them and the

01:03:24.880 way they talk about these things some of

01:03:27.060 them at least at the bbc i mean they

01:03:29.740 don't you think that these people don't

01:03:32.280 understand the rather they pretend that

01:03:36.040 what they're saying is one thing but then

01:03:37.400 something else no no they're true

01:03:39.080 believers and she was saying to me well

01:03:41.140 now now we've got now we're in charge you

01:03:44.240 know it's about equity it's about

01:03:45.700 diversity it's like that's how they think

01:03:48.480 they think that the country is overrun by

01:03:51.080 people like you racist bigoted northerners

01:03:53.300 right who are a bit you know and finally

01:03:58.020 we have the opportunity to take britain

01:04:00.820 into the 21st century that's how they

01:04:03.020 think they think that this is our time

01:04:05.880 we are the revolutionaries they're not

01:04:08.120 sitting there you know going oh we're

01:04:11.380 gonna do some evil shit here they think

01:04:13.720 they're improving the world they are

01:04:15.460 true believers and in terms of you know

01:04:17.780 the majority minority whoever look the

01:04:20.560 history of the world's you know this

01:04:21.900 better than me the history of the world

01:04:23.040 is always determined by a small group of

01:04:25.420 people who who who sees the public's

01:04:28.720 imagination who sees the means of control

01:04:30.860 over that society whatever it is there's

01:04:33.240 a great speech that bridget gabriel gave

01:04:35.700 about islamic extremists i don't know if

01:04:37.660 you've ever seen this it's one of the

01:04:39.080 most powerful speeches you ever heard

01:04:40.560 talking about this you know the history

01:04:43.180 of the world is changed by a small group

01:04:44.680 of people who who believe very strongly

01:04:47.760 in what they believe in and they seize the

01:04:50.100 the means of production in in in marxist

01:04:53.020 language yeah i think what i'd add to that

01:04:54.880 though is a slightly different perspective

01:04:56.280 i think you know um hannah rent wrote um

01:04:59.520 the banality of evil yes and if i got to

01:05:02.660 chat with her if she was alive i'd say i

01:05:04.180 think you should have called it the evil

01:05:05.700 of banality yes because it's the banal

01:05:10.020 nature of what's going on yes yeah so i'll

01:05:12.300 give you an example um because i appreciate

01:05:15.140 it can all be airy fairy if we're not

01:05:17.960 careful and it probably already has been

01:05:19.760 but a very specific example if you because

01:05:22.740 i think the university is in a dire situation

01:05:25.180 and listeners or viewers may think oh he's

01:05:27.120 bitter i'm not um because he's retired

01:05:31.320 didn't go the way he wanted to but i

01:05:33.520 suggest go to the university of leeds

01:05:35.380 website they've got a initiative

01:05:38.520 inverted commas redefining the curriculum

01:05:41.340 which i think you probably can work out

01:05:45.140 what this is and they've got a load of

01:05:47.940 people doing a professionally produced

01:05:50.280 video and it reminds me are you familiar

01:05:53.460 with david sidaris yes he's an american

01:05:56.500 raconteur a very funny guy he's got quite a

01:05:59.600 squeaky voice yes and tells stories and

01:06:01.900 whatever he tells me in front of an audience

01:06:03.220 it's brilliant but he he was a journalist

01:06:06.160 and he um did a an article for something

01:06:09.260 called stadium mate and basically it's a

01:06:12.940 bizarre example but it was um for it's

01:06:15.980 basically a catheter so you go to a big sports

01:06:18.860 event in america and i'm not judging

01:06:21.740 americans but some of them are quite portly

01:06:24.140 and they they've got their jumbo coke and

01:06:27.820 their massive burgers and everything and they

01:06:29.880 don't want to have to go the toilet so you

01:06:31.680 can go in your chair into your stadium mate

01:06:35.580 and he said he was testing it you know he was

01:06:38.420 testing i don't think it ever took off

01:06:39.880 there's a surprise but the look on your face

01:06:43.220 is what i was going to say yeah he tested it and

01:06:46.100 he said he was he was checking into a hotel

01:06:48.100 somewhere and he said in theory you just go

01:06:50.980 whenever you want and he said but he was just

01:06:53.260 about to check in and he decided to have a

01:06:55.000 whittle and he said the person who's serving at

01:06:59.100 the counter of the hotel knew what he was doing and

01:07:02.760 he knew what he was doing because he had this

01:07:04.520 thousand yard stare and why i say that is you

01:07:09.500 look at this video these university of leeds

01:07:12.040 employees are mouthing inanities about we are

01:07:16.940 going to make the curriculum available to

01:07:18.820 everyone dumbing down um etc etc and they have

01:07:22.600 this look and there's a brilliant brilliant book

01:07:25.560 it's not i think it's been reissued because i've

01:07:27.820 got a relatively modern copy but this guy called

01:07:29.660 robert j lifton and it was called thought

01:07:32.740 reform the psychology of totalism and i think

01:07:36.740 the subtitle was brainwashing in china and he

01:07:39.940 was an american psychiatrist in the army and

01:07:42.840 in the 1950s it was the books published in the

01:07:44.760 1960s but he did his research 1950s because i know

01:07:48.400 you've got your soviet background um

01:07:51.320 and those that i could mention examples from

01:07:55.180 the nazi periods of you know this totalitarian

01:07:57.960 and maybe the chinese example doesn't get spoken

01:08:01.240 of enough but he did this study um of basically

01:08:06.200 brainwashed i think in chinese it's she now

01:08:08.820 um and there'll be mandarin speakers at home thinking

01:08:11.480 why has he just ordered a bowl of noodles

01:08:13.260 but i think it literally means wash brain

01:08:15.860 and he got these people who'd been brainwashed

01:08:19.780 and they were tended to be catholic priests or

01:08:23.220 general christian clergy um and at the

01:08:26.920 the back of the book it's called chin huen lin

01:08:30.780 is the he was the most eminent professor of formal logic

01:08:35.260 i think it was probably beijing university

01:08:37.520 and he did a um a confession a written confession

01:08:42.040 and he publishes it in the appendix

01:08:43.640 and one of the things that mentioned in china they did curriculum reform

01:08:48.480 and he gets accused and this is why i get slightly defensive

01:08:52.600 when people go on about post-modernism because he's accused

01:08:54.860 he has to do this explanation where he says i was accused

01:08:57.800 i i have played um concept games i am guilty

01:09:01.920 because i should have only thought in a way that helped the people's republic

01:09:06.500 um so the idea was there are limits to how you can think

01:09:11.020 and i just make the suggestion when people are slagging off post-modernism

01:09:13.820 just be aware telling people the limits to which they should take thought

01:09:18.020 has a bad heritage as well as well as the misuse of these things in

01:09:22.960 totalitarian societies so in victor klemperev the nazi example

01:09:27.640 he was a jewish philologist a studier of language

01:09:32.240 and he makes he's done a book called the language of the third reich

01:09:35.600 um and it's a it's poignant as hell because the very beginning is he talks

01:09:40.380 about greek definitions of heroism in the classics

01:09:43.260 and he makes the point that the most brave it

01:09:47.040 because in germany at the time heroism that was the word that was used

01:09:50.360 like today they're a buzzword and he said his wife was um so-called

01:09:55.140 arian and he was jewish so he said she her life was worse

01:10:00.640 it was unbelievably bad because she was voluntarily giving up

01:10:03.960 all her privileges and being spat out in the street

01:10:07.340 and i know it's not worse just because she didn't happen to be jewish

01:10:11.200 but she was not jewish and could have just walked away

01:10:15.480 and she went through all this as he said that is heroism

01:10:19.060 but one of the things he says was we have this misunderstanding you know propaganda

01:10:22.120 is so powerful he said he'd be he'd be sat there in an apartment

01:10:26.960 and just observing uh non-jewish germans

01:10:30.760 and the radio would be on with goebbels

01:10:32.860 and people weren't listening

01:10:36.260 and he said they were talking about what they're going to get the shops the next day

01:10:39.660 but he said what did have an effect as a professional philologist he noticed certain words got redefined

01:10:46.040 and in nazi germany it was the constant repetition of words in daily life

01:10:50.940 that his professional experience said and his horrible personal experience

01:10:55.580 was that's what had the most profound effect

01:10:58.920 so in this robert j lift and his analysis of these um various people who've escaped

01:11:04.380 they had different methods but he said there were two basic chinese government methods

01:11:09.540 one is you're deconstructed to use a post-modern term as an individual

01:11:14.680 so your individuality your social networks

01:11:18.440 so ideally they'd get you in thought reform prison but they're not just prison

01:11:21.980 the uh government did thought reform classes that people voluntarily signed up for

01:11:26.680 so if you wanted to get ahead in china you'd sign up for your certificate

01:11:31.260 and in modern universities what's happening is people decide

01:11:36.380 the only way to get have a very successful career you know despite what they tell you

01:11:42.000 teaching doesn't matter that it really um

01:11:45.540 as a teacher i could have told you that right at the start of this interview

01:11:49.120 yeah but they don't they play in all of glossy brochures

01:11:52.020 yeah um what the only thing they're bothered about is publications

01:11:55.880 and if you can bring in research money and they they really don't care

01:12:01.700 so those people they they've i've seen it happen and i think you know the guy who wrote

01:12:07.440 darkness at noon arthur kessler it's a brilliant book about being imprisoned and a totalitarian

01:12:12.080 it's a novel but he did this very funny little short article where he called i think he called it

01:12:17.100 the commissars and the yogi he said people are divided into two types the yogi

01:12:21.500 is the spiritualist dreamer and the commissar you'll know them from if you've you you'll know

01:12:27.500 constantine but if you've ever had any engagement with any bureaucracy you know what a commissar is

01:12:33.140 he's the person with the clipboard and the power and the universities have created

01:12:38.420 these institutions within the university where you don't have to be that good you can climb the

01:12:46.020 greasy pole by being a commissar by enforcing language codes and guess what you set up a

01:12:52.520 language code unit i think leeds has now got some harassment units so good job i left

01:12:58.180 but um and guess what when you have a unit devoted to finding harassment you'll know this from the

01:13:05.260 soviet example guess what an awful lot of harassment is found because they have to justify their own

01:13:10.520 existence and then the inefficiencies so tell me whether this is just made up but the um they

01:13:16.360 measure productivity by stupid like for example weight of light bulbs so what they did is they

01:13:21.520 make the light bulbs heavier and then you find you can't see through them but they've met their targets

01:13:26.280 because they've just produced bloody heavy light bulbs so and these these irrationalities you're

01:13:31.220 asking you know what's going wrong you've got these people in institutions within institutions

01:13:36.800 that are pushing and then it becomes a question of again and ironically this is where post-modernism

01:13:42.400 helps it doesn't matter if they believe in it so this concept of belief there are various fascinating

01:13:49.540 post-modern ways of thinking about it you've got a young child and i'm guessing he is nicolai isn't he

01:13:54.580 doesn't know i'm stalking you he doesn't know you've done more research for this interview than we have

01:14:00.000 um he doesn't know christmas yet but oh sorry that's a bit of an odd i don't know whether you

01:14:08.040 will celebrate christmas it is i'm thinking i'm trying to desperately scramble new year yeah

01:14:14.000 panic or whatever no no new year father frost right father frost sorry yeah but if you wanted to

01:14:20.080 explain that you will eventually explain that to him or he'll get his presence and be all chuffed

01:14:24.160 but there's a concept where zizek writes about the concept of we pretend to pretend to believe

01:14:29.960 and what he means by that yes as adults no one will say we believe in father christmas but

01:14:36.640 actually we believe in the children's innocence even when the children have worked out this is all

01:14:41.820 nonsense we need to believe in those children believing so there are levels of belief and there's

01:14:48.400 another funny example i think there's an ethiopian tribe called the drose i think it is and they're

01:14:53.400 christians and they believe in fast fast days and they believe for some bizarre reason the leopard is a

01:14:59.560 christian animal so but on fast days when the leopard's supposed to be fasting which they believe he does

01:15:05.940 they still guard all their livestock so we have this idea that primitive people have primitive beliefs

01:15:12.480 no they have beliefs that they realize tie the in the community together and they pick and choose what

01:15:19.300 they truly believe it's actually quite sophisticated and we as thicker westerners patronizingly

01:15:25.200 but apply this to modern institutions and what you get is there will be some of these commissars

01:15:31.120 and you'll have experience or know of this from the soviet union who are born again nutty commissars

01:15:37.100 but there are others who are doing it for completely manipulative of course cynical reasons of course and

01:15:42.640 this is why you have to look you've got those people who are true believers and they are the ones that are

01:15:50.100 driving this and they have created in the universities and in the media and in the corporate world and in spore

01:15:57.100 and we could go on an incentive structure and remember people respond to incentives above all that's that's what

01:16:02.560 drives human behavior to a large extent people will do the thing that benefits them when to the extent that

01:16:08.260 they're able to assess that so you've got these true believers and then the rest of us we are fighting over that

01:16:16.060 80 85 percent in the middle of people who will go in either direction which is why a small number of

01:16:22.460 extremists can change the course of history because if they can persuade brainwash manipulate inspire

01:16:28.980 whatever the words you want to use that big majority in the middle they get to do whatever their program

01:16:34.780 is whatever their agenda is that that small group and i think it's much worse than you say to the to in the

01:16:41.800 sense that if these were evil people who in their technocratic elitist vision that got together and

01:16:48.280 were doing blah blah blah that'd be quite bad but you can get you can get a lot more done and you can

01:16:54.400 inspire a lot more people if you truly believe the crazy thing that you're selling and i think

01:16:58.960 these these people it's a religion it's a cult that they uh some of them are true believers and then

01:17:06.240 there's a large group of people who will go along with it because it's convenient for them

01:17:09.800 i'm not disagreeing i think one slight nuance i'd add is that there's um there's a thing called i

01:17:16.220 think it's seeper link is it seeper linsky the song's called solar linsky no no sorry it's some like

01:17:22.960 seeper linky triangles they're called all right and it's this weird thing is if you if you basically do

01:17:28.300 three dots and then do something in the middle and join it up and basically you can get by the time

01:17:32.640 you finish bisecting all these angles you get a fractal shape and all you're doing is repeating

01:17:38.980 um a pattern a very simple pattern so one interpretation of this is that again some of

01:17:45.940 these people don't believe but if you're in an environment where there's a certain it goes without

01:17:49.860 saying you do this in your local environment if you do one little act a similar act happens

01:17:55.280 somewhere else and across society you get there's immensely symmetrical fractal pattern agreed um so

01:18:01.400 that again is slightly it doesn't it it's not so much about belief but it's a it's about the power

01:18:09.100 and the enforcement of the belief on other people i agree with you but then but what i'm trying to

01:18:12.980 suggest is the enforcement can be quite subliminally it's in the nazi case in nazi germany within jewish

01:18:20.320 holocaust scholars there is a slight division i think they're called the intentionalists who interpret

01:18:26.160 what happened mostly as hitler's personal but there's also a group called structuralists and i'm

01:18:31.720 giving a broad divide but there's a guy called raul hilberg who wrote this it's a it's a it's in some

01:18:37.600 ways horrible uh beautiful writing but horrible it's a three volume you can get a one volume but

01:18:44.520 the whole thing is three volumes called the annihilation of the european jews and what's unique

01:18:49.620 about it is he was obsessed with the bureaucratic evidence so it's the evidence of at the most lowest

01:18:56.940 level and there's a small pamphlet he did separately about the reichsbahn which is the um the state

01:19:02.760 network system railway and get how sick this is he was talking about the bureau the bureau the bureaucracy

01:19:09.600 creates an environment where structurally things happen that never would have on their own

01:19:15.340 and he gives the haunting example of um they had an internal accounting system when people moved to

01:19:22.480 the death camps as if they were bags of grain and if you were under 11 you went free on the internal

01:19:30.700 accounting system this is how divorced from humanity but the point raul hilberg and he's been criticized

01:19:37.020 from other people who prefer to emphasize the intentionality of all these things and like most things

01:19:42.400 in life my suspicion is the truth somewhere in the middle but i just think it's a slight mistake

01:19:49.260 sometimes to fail to pay very very close attention to the way these things can occur on their own

01:19:55.740 because they're part of a structure they're not on their own though you still have to have the hit

01:20:00.220 layer at the top and then the structures will provide whatever the hit layer at the top wants

01:20:06.780 provided so it's a combination like you say the truth is in the middle the bureaucracy of

01:20:11.500 in its on its own has the ability to carry out the worst of things or the best of things depending

01:20:17.840 on what it is that is being sent down from the top right but it is the ideologues at the top that

01:20:23.360 determine the course of how that goes and that's why alternative institutions to what we've got now

01:20:28.740 are so important that's why new media is breaking the mold you talk about dumbing down well what are we

01:20:33.460 doing here we're dumbing up right no no and can i give you a personal example because i'm reading all

01:20:39.500 this bizarre stuff there's a guy in the state called henry abramson who's a rabbi um who does

01:20:45.120 some amazing because i'm getting into old testament type scripture stuff from a literary point of view

01:20:51.180 and he breaks down the talmud and the torah and the midrash and there's a brilliant scholar david

01:20:57.600 boyerin sorry daniel boyerin who's i give him the prize for the best title i've read in recent times

01:21:03.900 it's socrates and the fat rabbis he's written a book and he's a fascinating devout rabbinical scholar

01:21:11.320 and it's your point i'm i can get all this on the tinternet it's absolutely amazing but without

01:21:18.980 sounding pompous why i will sound pompous if you've got pre-existing reading skills and cultural

01:21:25.060 hinterland and background you can make use of all this stuff but there are a whole generation of

01:21:31.460 students i've left behind who don't have this and frank ferrady makes a really funny comment he

01:21:37.860 said in one of his books he was he criticized the fact that some of his students in the humanities can

01:21:42.760 get a whole degree without having read a complete book he said this is outrageous and he said after

01:21:48.040 he'd published the book he got contacted by university administration thought oh god what's going to be

01:21:53.080 said now and the administrator said yes you're correct and he's like what he goes you're correct and

01:21:58.800 this is a wonderful thing because it just shows we have multi-learning platforms

01:22:02.700 and this is the point if there are struck i'm not i don't mean to bang on about the structural

01:22:10.020 elements but if the and what you know why you are a critical theorist after all yeah but why am i here

01:22:16.100 because i believe in this i but what did i tell my first story is i believe in the truth i agree with

01:22:20.180 you and we can all we can do is what we can do but i've also thought it made me think because i think

01:22:26.540 you you you sometimes get frustrated it strikes me because you want you do want practical answers

01:22:30.060 now you understand why here's just a slightly odd thought i just think we could all be a bit more

01:22:34.900 canny you know um on big radio for i'll stop listening to that as well um is it robinson in the

01:22:40.940 morning the guy who does the interviews nick robinson and have you ever heard him let anyone speak for

01:22:47.760 more than five words before he interrupts them i have actually i think nick robinson is not as bad as

01:22:52.820 others but i take your point they all interrupt all right sorry well i might have picked the wrong

01:22:56.240 person but it is one of the reasons i just stopped listening was it's not because i'm being petty it's

01:23:01.540 just i want to listen to people speak i was just wondering whether there are more techniques whereby

01:23:06.020 the one thing on radio they can't stand is silence when they've interrupted you for the third time

01:23:11.880 just don't say anything until they say are you there can you say something i'll say i'll respond when

01:23:17.140 you stop interrupting me i do think they're very practical it sounds like a very small example

01:23:21.080 but i do think there are practical things and you've um because i stalk you online there's the

01:23:27.680 one where you're discussing this interview gets more troubling every minute there's london stop being

01:23:33.580 english the whole john clues yeah and there's a fascinating it is you've got it on your site where

01:23:38.640 you highlight but it was the power of logic and forgive me it's not been snippy but you weren't saying

01:23:46.020 anything it wasn't you know every day well my entire the tragic of my entire career is i say

01:23:51.040 very obvious things and everyone goes oh my god that's amazing but don't think it's funny you just

01:23:55.660 said yeah if scotland sorry if london was 50 scottish would it be fair to say it's less english

01:24:02.920 and but you had you were forgive me i think you got in on that discussion because you have an

01:24:08.660 ethnic background yeah but wasn't to white there's two mixed race presenters um three people from

01:24:16.880 ethnic minorities discussing has london stopped being white something and um but you just said

01:24:24.100 if we use the example of scottishness uh would that would it be like and the look of absolute confusion

01:24:30.320 but it's your point about that's why i said it's a night it's a cult it's a cult that's why it produces

01:24:35.920 the blank stare when i give them the logical example because suddenly they're confronted with

01:24:41.140 it's with reality or maybe they're using a stadium mate well to touching on universities and

01:24:49.260 isn't the problem that what this system produces is an absence of meritocracy from my own industry

01:24:57.420 not teaching but comedy i saw well we both saw it this cult ideology whatever you want to call it

01:25:04.100 come in and infect an entire industry and what happened in the edinburgh festival the moment i

01:25:09.320 knew that the edinburgh festival was finished as an institution was because you go and see shows that

01:25:14.800 are patently not four and five star shows they were then given four and five stars because they espouse

01:25:21.380 the ideology they said the right words they had the right views the right opinions etc and once that

01:25:26.620 happens meritocracy is done because you're not it's not an accurate reflection of the quality of the

01:25:33.840 work isn't that what's happening at universities yeah there's layers layers to respond to that and

01:25:41.160 before i forget it was talking about comedy i came across it was in nietzsche's birth of tragedy

01:25:46.660 he referred to comics they're the toxic discharge of absurdities nausea

01:25:52.700 which i thought was uh doesn't sound like a compliment but no but then the meritocracy

01:25:59.700 i went because i lived in edinburgh for all that time i went to um a lot of the the fringe and it

01:26:07.180 strikes me that it's very similar to the bbc it's not what you know it's who you know

01:26:13.880 and it is surprising though because i think there's a there's a bit of unity between us in the sense of

01:26:20.340 background in the sense you're in a comedy industry if i can call it that and you would have thought

01:26:26.780 the most basic thing you do in comedy is tell jokes and the most basic element of a joke is and this is

01:26:32.380 just obvious to comedians that you don't know in advance what's funny you push the boundaries or you

01:26:37.720 turn into michael mcintyre or the weirdest i'd love to get your opinion on frankie boyle what happened

01:26:44.860 to him um from a seemingly normal you know telling terribly cruel jokes to going full-on woke um strange

01:26:55.080 things happen but anyway but just before you go on and i i know i've been hogging the microphone i

01:27:00.060 should say michael mcintyre is a fantastic comedian he's absolutely brilliant he's technically brilliant

01:27:04.920 he's fantastic at making a large number of people laugh he's not necessarily an intellectual

01:27:09.920 person's comedian but but you know if you're going to be selling out stadiums that michael mcintyre is

01:27:17.420 brilliant francis and i both have a lot of respect for him no i have my it's completely personal

01:27:23.100 this is why i mentioned frankie ball in the same sentence when he was funny i'm a dark you know my

01:27:30.140 interior monologue is notes from the underground dostoevsky going around in my head so i'm not a yardstick and

01:27:36.680 i'm not a professional comic no and i can imagine to do what he does he's incredible michael mcintyre

01:27:42.480 is a supremely skilled comedian yeah just it's just not for you yeah but the point i was trying to

01:27:49.600 make is the absence of meritocracy or when you erode meritocracy the institution collapses and that's

01:27:56.700 any institution and my point is isn't that's what's happening at universities now where you do a

01:28:02.700 literature degree you don't have to read the book you know you don't have the depth of study you don't

01:28:08.200 have the intellectual rigor if you don't have the intellectual rigor then you're then it's not going

01:28:13.660 to be an accurate reflection of your ability in that particular subject if it's not an accurate

01:28:18.900 reflection of your ability in that particular subject then ultimately the degree that you were

01:28:23.780 given is worthless yeah and that i mentioned i went to university in 85 and it was about 12 percent of

01:28:32.580 people and then my career actually matched when i was doing my phd it was in the second year my phd

01:28:39.160 which i think was about 91 i personally benefited because there was a massive expansion and i got to

01:28:44.700 do tutorials and this is 1991 i think in edinburgh i was paid 18 pound an hour it was like happy days

01:28:51.440 i did as many hours as i possibly could but that was because they expanded the numbers and that's

01:28:57.220 when you notice it's your point when you expand the numbers in and of itself that reduces quality

01:29:04.160 because you've gone away from this selective and i've always joked that you know i'd have loved to

01:29:08.460 play for liverpool the main football team the main thing stopping me is fat and talentless so i could

01:29:14.660 probably still play for everton you're gonna get destroyed after this interview by anton i'd like

01:29:22.220 to say i'm a fast runner but i'm not even there um but so that's the sheer expansion dilutes and but

01:29:28.680 then i i i've got mixed views because i'm a massive believer in elitism so it really annoys me that

01:29:36.520 richard grannon had this it's a spartan life coaching system doesn't it because i had this concept

01:29:40.780 of spartan therapy you leave businessmen on their underpants on the top of the hill in wales where

01:29:46.060 i live and shout at them a lot and they'll either recover or like the spartans that they die on the

01:29:51.300 mountainside but um where was i going with this yeah we were talking about meritocracy within the

01:29:56.760 university system yeah so it's it's the expansion the numbers the sheer numbers so and then there's the

01:30:04.800 fact the minute they start paying so i remember there was one point in my career where i was

01:30:10.680 marking and one of the commissars said to me uh there's a massive disparity between the marks we're

01:30:17.540 both giving so i showed him the comments i'd made said oh i see i said what do you mean said

01:30:22.800 you're marking the old way so i missed the memo that said we're now but this is how it what did that

01:30:31.700 mean what's the old way i was using before the expansion what would have been a first two one

01:30:37.920 and a two two nowadays then this is the guardian which i know you two are massive fans of they'd

01:30:44.100 have things like the guardian university league table well we're back to the soviet manipulation

01:30:48.140 statistics and the guardian league table one of the criteria for how high you are is how many firsts

01:30:53.800 do people leave the university with because that is a sign of the quality of the institution

01:30:58.640 not if that feeds back there's a feedback loop tell you what lads if we give out a lot more first

01:31:05.500 we go up the table everyone's like everyone's doing it and why if if you're recruiting let's just say

01:31:11.820 you you you use my old standards and the students and their parents the helicopter parents who by the

01:31:19.680 way now attend i think frank frady again writes about this they attend open days so i remember saying

01:31:25.380 any questions i used to do open days with the admissions tutor and any questions and the parents

01:31:31.120 and the kids are just sat there i'm thinking i was gonna say you do know you're gonna have to come to

01:31:36.340 university and write some essays on your own but i don't think that's true because i do know of

01:31:41.980 parents helping this you know professional parents helping those kids write essays paul one of the

01:31:48.880 things that i noticed in my career in education is towards the end it was a realization that what schools

01:31:55.280 were was essentially a factory for harvesting data which then successive governments used to prove that

01:32:03.120 they were doing a good job in education so we for instance the the way that the government deduced that

01:32:11.840 they were doing a good job in primary schools is a sats which kids took at the age of 11.

01:32:19.880 We had to teach them grammar now the way we taught them grammar didn't in fact help them in any

01:32:24.700 particular way with their writing didn't take teach them how to be better writers how to construct a

01:32:29.680 sentence punctuation or any of that all it taught them was how to pass a grammar test so we used to

01:32:36.820 cram the kids full of this useless information that in two weeks time they would have forgotten about

01:32:41.280 simply to pass a test but once they pass a test and the kid and the school gets 85 percent the

01:32:47.420 government can go look up what a good job we're doing tick is that what the university sector is

01:32:52.100 like yeah i've mentioned it before the idea of the soviet when everything's driven by statistics you know

01:32:57.240 statistics are eminently fakeable and this is why i read the very beginning everyone should be trained

01:33:02.420 in statistics to know their weaknesses statistics are incredibly powerful and they get a bad rap because

01:33:07.820 they're so often misused because people don't know how to interpret them if you don't know the difference

01:33:11.620 in the median you know the the arithmetic arithmetic average i might know it but i can't say it

01:33:16.800 um this has this has an impact and you're completely correct what that allows when everything's data

01:33:23.260 driven the people in charge of the data are all powerful but at leeds for example that was one of the

01:33:30.180 former i believe it was one of the former vice chancellors sir alan langland um he was going to

01:33:36.700 get rid of the classics department at leeds and they had to get an international petition to stop him

01:33:42.240 and at the moment uh university of turku in finland which i've been to their classics department's under

01:33:48.940 threat and it's because of you why if you're obsessed with the statistics and um guess what the

01:33:55.500 classics are quite difficult so to commit to teaching student the classical which i would argue

01:34:00.660 is the single most important thing we could do on a practical level to improve things so for a slight

01:34:07.460 tangent the whole issue about non-binary stuff and trans read ovid's metamorphoses and it relates to

01:34:15.580 narcissus but um is it lario lario p um is the mother of narcissus and she asks a blind seer

01:34:23.440 um a forecaster of the future what her son's outcome was going to be and he's blind because

01:34:30.680 initially he stood on no he was he was um juno and jupiter there's a point to this but it's because

01:34:37.660 juno and jupiter the god jupiter and his wife juno teresis is the name of the seer he stood on two

01:34:44.620 snakes copulating and because of the coitus interrupters they um made him turned him into a woman

01:34:52.820 as a punishment don't shoot the messenger so he's turned into a woman so june uh he then manages to

01:35:00.920 get the snakes back he's turned back to a man so juno and jupiter arguing over who has most sexual

01:35:05.840 pleasure a man or a woman so they thought i know we'll ask teresis teresis i think his name is uh we'll

01:35:13.100 ask him what he thinks as he's experienced both and then he gives the wrong answer he says the woman

01:35:18.300 has too much pleasure so she makes him blind so then he makes the prediction about narcissus when

01:35:24.240 narcissus comes along it says in ovid's metamorphoses narcissus was beloved of men and women

01:35:28.980 so he's basically sam smith ahead of his time um but my point is the by the you know there's a clue in

01:35:36.060 the title metamorphoses it's about changing it's about fluidity if these poor kids could read ovid

01:35:43.940 and have it explained to them intelligently oh that's interesting about identity is fluid this has

01:35:49.960 been known since the beginning of time it's when you get the mermaid ideologues that these type of

01:35:58.380 ideas get a it's the dumbed down version b it has no roots with actual community knowledge which is what

01:36:05.700 the greek myths had and it's just hilarious because the greek gods were they intervened and were

01:36:12.060 jealous of humans they did loads of mad stuff because guess what the greeks understood their

01:36:19.100 gods were just ways of thinking it wasn't ideological and the gods would do contradictory things

01:36:26.180 guess what life's contradictory life fate you never know all the point about hubris and nemesis

01:36:33.260 all these things life's gonna bite you in the ass that is what the greeks taught now my point would be

01:36:39.960 when universities because we're talking about how could the bbc improve how could universities

01:36:44.180 improve they'll tell you what next time some stupid ignoramus from hr and well that's basically anyone

01:36:50.420 from hr comes to give us a training course what why you know classics departments around the world

01:36:57.460 are under threat i would pay for the classics department to teach internal training using the

01:37:02.480 socratic method like richard grannon said using greek myths and provide substantial stuff worth

01:37:09.500 engaging with i could imagine a load of academics and this is the bad faith part of it academics sit

01:37:14.700 on these training courses and the vast majority aren't stupid and they're not ideological and they're

01:37:20.480 sat there thinking i don't believe we're doing this and the vice chancellor of university of leeds will

01:37:26.520 say we're a wonderful community and we're all doing and look you've just been trained on gender

01:37:30.700 fluidity and she must know her staff think most of them think this is nonsense on stilt and that's

01:37:37.840 the bad faith gets replicated but she it's it's a dutch woman who's in charge of leeds and she'll be on

01:37:43.960 hundreds of thousands of pounds for propagating what she must know deep down her staff think is

01:37:51.980 intellectually vacuous so if that's the leader of a matter leeds is a big university approximately 35 000

01:37:57.800 students if that's the leadership and it goes back to my advice point if he's a lord

01:38:04.020 and he's espousing bad faith and he's showing no moral character and it's you're totally right

01:38:13.660 programs like this the fact that douglas murray puts himself out there i worry i think richard

01:38:18.900 grannon has said i worry about uh jordan peterson his own health because i think it seems to have taken

01:38:24.580 on an awful lot like a savior complex um but it does it i think you're right constantin that

01:38:31.760 perhaps we could go both ways but obviously you keep doing this type of stuff but i don't think

01:38:36.740 we should ever stop holding them to account because they're not doing their jobs

01:38:40.300 yeah uh yeah i just i don't think you're going to get very far with that i think you have to

01:38:45.740 we have to let go of the old institutions well you but then forgive me that's the type of defeatist

01:38:51.040 thing i was saying it's not defeatist at all the end of one thing is always the birth of something

01:38:55.120 new well why couldn't we though as a society and as public figure well i'm not a public figure but

01:39:02.080 public figures why couldn't we argue for things like proper teaching of classics you can argue for

01:39:07.960 anything no no you're just not going to get it no no well i'm saying strategically so for example

01:39:11.520 your your idea about the internet if you look at what jordan peterson's doing with the book of

01:39:15.540 genesis um that and it's it's interesting it's it's it is he's been criticized because it's a

01:39:22.320 certain type of male demographic who are lost so the incel type community but he can sell out stadium

01:39:28.440 when uh i think it goes beyond the incel community his audience no no no no i said he'd been criticized

01:39:34.100 for that yeah yeah but my point is that particular demographic feel lost they lack meaning yes and i think

01:39:39.880 it's the beginning of your book on love letter to the west available all good bookshops you actually

01:39:45.180 quote solstin and say when when the when a tree is rotten at its core and it's about spirituality

01:39:51.420 and i think you've both said you say grace before meals now there's there's a loss of spirituality and

01:39:58.580 i understand you're not going to get the toothpaste back in the tube you can't expect everyone suddenly

01:40:02.700 to become religious but you can connect with the wisdom of the classics absolutely but my point is and

01:40:10.120 i think we could do it more aggressively i don't think it's pie in the sky um for example with

01:40:14.900 russian um again jordan peterson and others um i was going to say bang on but i'm a massive

01:40:19.640 dostoevsky fan where there's an institute uh cervantes instituto cervantes spanish culture

01:40:25.880 there's the academy francais etc where's the russian is the one timing's not great for that

01:40:31.180 but paul but we have to wrap up because you can see how much we've enjoyed this because we've

01:40:36.260 overrun by about 45 minutes but the answer to the problem that you're talking about is for you

01:40:41.940 to get on the internet and give people that classical education in the form of youtube lectures

01:40:46.620 that's how this gets addressed starting there and working our way up to bigger institutions over time

01:40:52.040 there are universities that are starting up that are going to offer a different type of curriculum

01:40:56.080 that's how this gets solved it's people like you going out there and making something for people to

01:41:01.540 enjoy because as we've seen with this and with all sorts of other shows there's an appetite out

01:41:05.980 there for that so uh i i challenge you uh yeah but you know why i'm not tempted to because there's

01:41:12.200 people like chris watkins henry aberson i think there's too many people doing too much stuff in a

01:41:17.220 way i'd much rather try and help them because he chris watkins is just brilliant the the level

01:41:24.260 he can explain derrida and fuko at such a level of relative simplicity given the difficulty of the

01:41:29.860 content that i think people would be shocked suddenly um why is this why the fuko is a

01:41:37.500 bogeyman why is this so fascinating but paul my point to you would be um i think everybody has a role

01:41:44.160 to play in this so for instance constantine can write and deliver a speech much better than me that

01:41:49.740 will go viral i will i'm not going to go into the oxford union write a speech and deliver it

01:41:55.080 what i can do is i can write comedy that lampoons the sacred cows of the day the jacindas all the

01:42:02.620 rest of it and that people will share and that people and i read the comments and people go

01:42:07.600 nailed it spot on absolutely we've all got our part to play well except can i give you an example

01:42:14.080 of online yeah uh unheard magazine which i really like we all do the great great publication so there's

01:42:22.540 a belgian i think he's a postdoc he wrote a brilliant article i'm a massive fan of jean

01:42:26.440 baudrillard's work who again he's like an old testament prophet he's been misinterpreted he

01:42:30.100 really slagged off modern life yeah brilliant article about jean baudrillard and how he's relevant to

01:42:36.120 modern day america i normally don't look at the comments look down at the comments and someone said

01:42:41.360 he could have said this in three paragraphs it's like no he couldn't and it's like he's belgian it's

01:42:47.360 probably his fifth language brilliant i thought it was a very good article yeah i'm a baudrillard

01:42:51.840 to pump myself up but i'm basically a baudrillard expert i thought it was brilliant um snotty

01:42:58.200 comment so i wrote and i normally don't and the irony is that my uh online pseudonym is theodore

01:43:03.200 adorno because i don't like using my real name who's a cultural marxist so i wrote your comment is

01:43:09.880 typical of the twitter generation everything has to be said in so many characters it's a great article

01:43:14.720 leave him alone so he basically replied theodore adorno happened to be a great musicologist so he

01:43:20.440 said if you are the spirit of theodore adorno go off and tinkle your ivories and i said i will go

01:43:26.340 off and tinkle my ivories if you go off and scrub your nan full stop and my point is this isn't

01:43:33.120 great even i understand that's not socratic method yeah but this is the point that online

01:43:39.200 and that i do think there's uh peter slaughtered like the german philosopher said that more communication

01:43:44.520 builds more conflict this idea that necessarily do more i think no you do more targeted stuff do

01:43:52.380 better stuff you know fail try again fail better um so sometimes i think you shouldn't have below

01:43:59.780 the line comments so there's magazines compact magazine is one of them in in the states um the

01:44:06.100 critic is another magazine here online great stuff that you're talking about they actually don't

01:44:10.880 there's no comment and that's something else maybe that could be addressed as the idea this

01:44:16.100 i what the technology does brilliantly is encourage loads and loads of interactivity

01:44:20.740 i would argue significantly too much and we actually need to find ways to winnow it to filter it

01:44:26.980 um and that would improve things well paul it's been a sensational interview we've both

01:44:32.600 it's been brilliant we've loved every second of it thank you so much for coming on the question

01:44:36.940 that we always end our interviews is with is what is the one thing we're not talking about as a

01:44:42.740 society that we really should be gonna cheat and give you two very quick ones go and we will do a

01:44:47.580 couple of questions for our locals only that only they will get to see as well um i said one of them

01:44:52.780 i said i wouldn't do because i've got a friend in the village becky and her husband's called adolf

01:44:56.100 which is another story um but becky i said uh dog poo bags i live in the countryside and i just think

01:45:05.480 it's the perfect embodiment so to speak of um virtue signaling people will leave them

01:45:11.840 full of dog crap because that's what they're there for in the middle of nowhere because there isn't a

01:45:16.840 bin now can you explain to me why is that a passive aggressive why do people do that um it strikes me

01:45:23.740 that it's this passive aggressive there isn't a bin i'm making some type of point but it just strikes me

01:45:29.460 it's this failure to think through the consequences that will now be there unless somebody else picks it up

01:45:34.120 moves it there aren't any bins because it's called the countryside you're muppet um so that will be

01:45:39.140 there for the next thousand years unless it's a biodegradable bag the other thing is tea bags

01:45:43.680 which no offense was a lovely cup of tea but um it's such a simple thing that tea you know the tea

01:45:50.800 they put in tea bags is absolutely atrocious quality everybody uses tea bags and if you're woke and

01:45:57.880 economically focused it the the tea they put into crap so people in the developing world who grow

01:46:03.440 tea don't get a good price because it's the fannings off the floor of the factory and it's so you can buy

01:46:08.840 great quality tea use a teapot use a strainer hardly any more effort and the whole world of tea is out

01:46:15.820 there but tea bags are it's this encapsulation of the easy i don't think it is particularly easy

01:46:22.000 it's bad for you bad quality tea bleach bags glue in the bags so you're all killing yourselves and i

01:46:28.300 drink great tea and on that note thank you so much for coming on if people want to find you online

01:46:33.560 ironically enough where is the best place to do that this is what's funny you're gonna have to

01:46:36.880 deal with all the complaints i don't have a mobile phone yeah um i don't have an online presence

01:46:42.300 um i'm like heidegger's run off to the german forest i live in the welsh hills

01:46:47.440 so anyone who wants to have a go please just bother you too sounds good to me that is what

01:46:53.600 they usually do we're going to ask you a couple of questions from our supporters that only they

01:46:57.320 will get to see an answer on our locals too but for now paul been great to have you on thank you so

01:47:01.820 much does the doctor think that the lack of access to universities from the working classes

01:47:07.120 has resulted in the current situation with mostly middle class upper class kids going into uni

01:47:13.100 in creating strange woke religions as they have never known in inverted commas proper hardship

01:47:19.440 previous

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TRIGGERnometry - February 20, 2023

Academia Has Fallen - Dr Paul A. Taylor

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