TRIGGERnometry - Aella - Why I Became An Escort

00:00:01.000 Ayla, you go from Christian conservative family to OnlyFans star and sex worker.

00:00:07.780 How does that happen?

00:00:09.320 So I worked at a factory for a year and I was like, wow, this really sucks.

00:00:15.740 It's better than like a life spent working at the factory. That was really awful.

00:00:19.780 You think sex work is less bad than working in a factory?

00:00:24.640 I mean, it depends on the person, but for me and a lot of girls that I know who are in sex work, it was very, absolutely.

00:00:30.760 How do you be seductive?

00:00:32.200 If I lower my voice and talk slower and I don't use big words and I smile, make eye contact.

00:00:41.440 Yeah.

00:00:41.800 Yeah, I'm glad that we're that predictable. Every single one of us.

00:00:46.360 You must enjoy escorting.

00:00:48.940 Yep.

00:00:49.700 Clearly, right?

00:00:50.500 Which I was surprised to find, yeah.

00:00:51.820 Ayla, you go from Christian conservative family to OnlyFans star and sex worker.

00:01:00.280 How does that happen?

00:01:02.080 A long series of baby steps.

00:01:04.400 Okay, tell us.

00:01:05.740 Well, like when you're raised in a Christian conservative home, they kind of don't prepare you for the real world, at least not the way that mine worked.

00:01:12.140 So like homeschooled, expected to be a housewife kind of deal.

00:01:14.580 So I got in the real world and realistically, my options were not great.

00:01:19.360 So I worked at a factory for a year and I was like, wow, this really sucks.

00:01:24.160 I don't have an education and I'm really like culturally isolated from the world.

00:01:29.620 Like it was really hard to like get along and understand what was going on because, you know, we weren't allowed to watch a lot of normal media.

00:01:35.380 And so I had a friend who suggested trying camming because he did camming.

00:01:41.940 And then I was like really poor, sleeping on a friend's couch.

00:01:44.140 I was like, you know what, I'll give it a shot and made a lot of money the first night.

00:01:48.840 And then one thing led to another.

00:01:50.600 And I just like, oh, this is the way to like have many an agency when there was no other option for me.

00:01:57.900 Hmm. I'm guessing by this point, you would have had some kind of ideological shift as well, because not many Christian conservatives would be like, I'm working in a factory.

00:02:07.820 It sucks. Let's try camming.

00:02:10.000 It's quite a transition in terms of culture and all of that, right?

00:02:13.880 Yeah, very much.

00:02:14.640 I lost my faith maybe like a year or so after I left home, which was like a pretty rapid shift.

00:02:20.000 I think like the exposure to being in a non-Christian world really helped me be able to think that maybe Christianity was false.

00:02:27.900 Like, I think it's very difficult to actually consider that everything that you believe is wrong when every part of your culture is enmeshed with this.

00:02:36.580 Like, you don't know anyone who disagrees.

00:02:39.200 Like, I didn't know any non-Christians in my personal life.

00:02:42.400 So it's just like your brain just to some degree literally cannot consider this as an option.

00:02:47.140 Or at least it was quite hard.

00:02:48.420 It was quite hard for me.

00:02:49.460 And so I think after I finally left home and I was like briefly attempted to do college, I was surrounded by people who weren't Christian and they were living life and being happy and fine and it was okay somehow.

00:03:00.860 And then this somehow allowed some part of my subconscious to be like, maybe this is all false.

00:03:06.760 Is there any part of, because you talk about leaving Christianity, is there any part of religion that you miss?

00:03:12.460 Because there's a lot of people who say, you know what, it gives me a lot of structure, it gives me purpose, it gives me direction.

00:03:20.180 Yeah, absolutely.

00:03:20.980 It's like something that a lot of people have tried to replicate outside of religion and it's really hard to do for a lot of reasons.

00:03:25.140 But yeah, there's like the intense community.

00:03:28.860 You just have like a pre-built community that trusts each other.

00:03:31.980 Like a lot of help.

00:03:32.980 Like, for example, my family moved from California to Idaho when I was quite young.

00:03:36.440 And they just had like a church in Idaho, like send out all of their people to help us unload, move in and out of like various apartments for free for no reason.

00:03:46.940 It was just like because you're part of the community, you're part of the in-group, you get this kind of help.

00:03:51.800 And that's super cool.

00:03:53.660 I mean, it is.

00:03:54.340 And particularly nowadays where people are struggling for community.

00:03:58.220 I mean, did you find that difficult, the loss of a community, the loss of structure?

00:04:03.240 A bit.

00:04:04.020 I found community in other cam girls at the time, so that helped a lot.

00:04:07.200 And then I found rationalists, which in a lot of ways actually operate kind of similar to churches.

00:04:13.120 The fly finds you very attractive.

00:04:15.020 Yeah.

00:04:15.880 They can't stay away.

00:04:16.840 It's into you.

00:04:17.540 It's into you.

00:04:18.320 It's one of your fans.

00:04:18.940 So, you start camming.

00:04:23.780 And what's that like?

00:04:26.800 Great.

00:04:27.360 It was scary the first night, but after that it kind of got fine.

00:04:30.500 And I was pretty awkward.

00:04:31.400 Like, a lot of instruction about how to be flirty and seductive as a woman, like the general – like you watch movies, like teen movies about how you flirt and what kind of things mean what.

00:04:42.620 I didn't really have any of that.

00:04:44.140 Like to the degree where I remember my first time at a bar, somebody walked up to me and offered me, like, can I buy you a drink?

00:04:49.840 And I was like, sure.

00:04:50.880 And they bought me a drink and I just took it and I walked away.

00:04:53.840 I didn't understand that that was like a cultural indication of interest.

00:04:58.180 To me, it was literally, I want to give you money for alcohol.

00:05:01.460 And I'm like, that is a nice stranger.

00:05:03.300 So, it's like this level of not understanding.

00:05:05.260 You're very literal, Ayla.

00:05:06.900 Very literal.

00:05:07.460 Literally, yeah.

00:05:09.260 Like, someone comes up to you, gives you a drink, you're like, thank you, and just walk away.

00:05:12.780 That guy must have been devastated.

00:05:14.320 Yeah, I know.

00:05:15.060 I feel really bad looking in hindsight.

00:05:17.280 He's like, oh, he probably thinks women are bitches.

00:05:18.760 But no, I'm just either autistic or homeschooled or both.

00:05:24.080 Unclear.

00:05:25.540 But yeah, so I really did not have a lot of the organic understanding of what it's like to be a seductive woman.

00:05:32.260 Like, how are you supposed to signal us?

00:05:33.640 And so, a lot of my early years, camming was very goofy.

00:05:38.420 I just was very funny.

00:05:40.780 I was a mime, a sex mime.

00:05:44.240 And I would do just wacky stuff all the time before eventually figuring out that that's not the best way to make money.

00:05:49.420 So, it's interesting.

00:05:52.540 It sounds to me like you've had to almost kind of mechanically work out how to do certain things that you didn't get from your upbringing or whatever.

00:06:02.060 And one of them is being seductive.

00:06:03.980 How do you be seductive?

00:06:05.340 Well, it's a multi-step process.

00:06:08.100 So, what I'm doing right now, this is not seductive.

00:06:10.020 If I were, like, trying to, like, eek you for all the money you had, there's no way that this would work.

00:06:14.300 But if I, like, adjust my posture slightly, and if I lower my voice and talk slower, and I don't use big words, and I smile, make eye contact, and really drop, like, my sphere of energy into my lower stomach, then it does a lot better.

00:06:39.860 Yeah.

00:06:40.260 Yeah.

00:06:40.820 I'm glad that we're that predictable.

00:06:43.000 Every single one of us.

00:06:44.620 That makes sense.

00:06:46.640 Logically.

00:06:47.740 Logically, that makes sense.

00:06:48.980 But it took me so long to figure that out.

00:06:50.660 Like, when I was camming, I had a paper with, like, rules for myself.

00:06:54.580 So, with camming, it's very rapid feedback.

00:06:56.860 You get, like, live people coming in.

00:06:58.580 You see the numbers of your room rise and fall depending on what you're doing.

00:07:01.900 You see your money per hour averaged over the last 60 days is shown as a score.

00:07:05.620 This is my free cams.

00:07:06.420 So, you get, like, very rapid instruction about the kinds of behaviors you're doing that work or not.

00:07:11.280 So, I had a paper behind my webcam, which is the rules I eventually figured out, which was smile always, keep eye contact with the camera, talk really slowly, way slower than you think you need to, and use simple language.

00:07:24.900 Just, and that, when I did that, my money increased quite a lot.

00:07:29.080 Why do you think you have to use simple language?

00:07:31.920 It's, like, I think it's, there's, like, a couple theories, some of them flattering and some of them not.

00:07:37.400 Like, one of them is, like, if you're very horny, you're probably not thinking in, like, higher-brained language.

00:07:42.920 You're probably just, which is kind of true, right?

00:07:45.560 Which is legitimate.

00:07:46.360 So, if you want to give, like, a really intentional signal that you are aroused, you know, you probably shouldn't be using multi-syllabic language or whatever.

00:07:55.300 But another one is that, like, you don't want to appear too intimidating.

00:07:58.480 Like, you want to be accessible.

00:07:59.680 This is, like, one of the biggest rules for seduction is you want to be as accessible as possible and as reactive as possible.

00:08:05.160 And if you're using, like, a big language, maybe it's subtly signaling to the men that, like, oh, I'm going to have to try harder to have an impact on her in the way that I want.

00:08:14.320 And, Ayla, was this OnlyFans or was this a platform before OnlyFans when you started?

00:08:18.340 This is my free cams, which is actually owned by the person who bought OnlyFans before I got big.

00:08:22.380 Okay, and this was, what year was this?

00:08:25.300 This was when I was, like, 21, or 20 years old to 25 or 26.

00:08:31.620 Cool.

00:08:32.180 So, that was how long ago now?

00:08:33.840 And I'm 31.

00:08:34.620 Okay, all right.

00:08:35.740 So, because I'm just trying to work out at what point of the internet.

00:08:39.120 Because now, apparently, OnlyFans is super competitive.

00:08:43.180 Yeah, super competitive.

00:08:44.860 So, when you started, that was, was it like a gold rush era for camming?

00:08:50.720 No, camming had been around, like, maybe 5, 10 years earlier before I started.

00:08:55.580 It was sort of the golden era, but it wasn't, like, a spike in the way that we see this happen to OnlyFans.

00:09:00.280 So, the OnlyFans, like, came in and it changed the world.

00:09:02.380 And with, like, my free cams and related cams sites, it was, like, a slow climb over, you know, the early 2000s.

00:09:08.880 Yeah.

00:09:09.580 You say changed the world.

00:09:10.820 How did OnlyFans change the world?

00:09:12.580 It's just radically changed the internet.

00:09:14.360 Like, I'm a big internet person.

00:09:16.440 I feel like internet is my culture.

00:09:17.920 I grew up on the internet.

00:09:18.940 I love the internet.

00:09:20.060 And the introduction of OnlyFans, like, modified rules across the internet in order to handle OnlyFans.

00:09:26.420 Like, one of the things that I'm not sure if OnlyFans did intentionally, but might be genius, is that they don't have internal discovery.

00:09:32.860 Which is, like, for example, what my free cams had in every other public sex site, as far as I can tell, had internal discovery.

00:09:40.000 That's, like, the value that it's giving.

00:09:42.080 But the OnlyFans, if you sign up...

00:09:42.980 Internal discovery is when you can be found on the platform by accident or by being recommended.

00:09:49.660 Is that what internal...

00:09:50.380 Yeah, by, like, recommendation.

00:09:52.200 Like YouTube, right?

00:09:52.740 Yeah.

00:09:52.860 You watch a video, you get a bunch of suggestions.

00:09:54.940 That's what you're talking about.

00:09:56.140 Right, yeah.

00:09:56.500 So, if you put a video on YouTube, you expect YouTube to provide the viewers to your video.

00:10:00.700 Yes.

00:10:01.080 You don't have to go out and, like, post on Twitter and be like, hey, guys, come see my video.

00:10:04.660 Yes.

00:10:05.460 So, with OnlyFans, they have no internal discovery.

00:10:07.820 Which means that if I'm a girl on OnlyFans and I want subscribers, what do I have to do?

00:10:11.920 I have to go out to other websites and post my link and try and convince people to come subscribe to me.

00:10:17.560 And this is just every user on OnlyFans that makes any money has to do this.

00:10:21.760 Which means that we saw, like, a rapid influx of any place on the internet that allowed not-safe-for-work posting just became completely dominated by OnlyFans.

00:10:29.460 And they had to change the rules to handle that.

00:10:32.160 And why wouldn't you use your own website to do that?

00:10:34.460 Where do you get the traffic for that website?

00:10:36.580 But you are having to bring the traffic to OnlyFans.

00:10:39.180 Yes.

00:10:39.520 So, Reddit, for example, is a great thing.

00:10:41.760 Or TikTok or Instagram.

00:10:43.540 Those things will promote your video to other people.

00:10:45.780 Those have internal discovery.

00:10:46.860 So, you post something that, like, is a sexy video to one of these platforms and then people see it.

00:10:51.980 And then you have a funnel and then they go find your OnlyFans.

00:10:54.940 I know.

00:10:55.500 But what I'm saying is why would you not just use your own website instead of OnlyFans?

00:10:59.460 Oh, well, it's very hard.

00:11:00.720 So, I did look into this.

00:11:01.820 Sorry.

00:11:02.160 I misunderstood what you were saying.

00:11:03.980 Because, like, OnlyFans takes 20% and you're like, maybe I could get it.

00:11:06.300 That's what I'm saying.

00:11:07.180 Right.

00:11:07.500 But payment processors are terrible.

00:11:09.300 If you want to use payment processors to accept funds for what you're building and you're selling not-safe-for-work stuff, the fees are massive.

00:11:17.660 And I think it's my understanding that OnlyFans, because they're doing such huge volume, manage to negotiate some sort of, like, lower fees for those payment processors.

00:11:25.720 But if you're doing it as an individual, you have no bargaining power.

00:11:28.600 And I looked into it and it was just, you can't, I wouldn't be able to, I would be losing 20% easily.

00:11:34.040 And just for the cost of setting up the website, it's just not worth it.

00:11:36.660 And, I mean, OnlyFans is one of those things that became super successful over the pandemic.

00:11:42.900 I mean, do you know how much is turnover now at OnlyFans?

00:11:45.980 How much money are they making?

00:11:47.040 They must be making...

00:11:47.900 I don't know.

00:11:48.920 Massive, still.

00:11:50.700 Because it just seems that it just hit the zeitgeist, whereas before I'd never even been aware of it.

00:11:56.340 Yeah, it was around for years beforehand.

00:11:58.480 It started in 2017, I think.

00:11:59.780 I think that's what I joined.

00:12:00.540 I remember joining OnlyFans and nobody was on it.

00:12:03.060 Nobody had heard of it.

00:12:03.740 And I, like, posted some things and made, like, 40 bucks and then never signed on again.

00:12:08.760 So it's really weird.

00:12:10.080 And why do you think, I mean, not to state the obvious too much, but there's a lot of porn on the internet.

00:12:15.680 Yeah.

00:12:15.960 I don't know if you've noticed.

00:12:16.700 Why do you think the camming thing is taken off in the way that it has, as opposed to watching, you know, a recorded video produced by a porn studio or whatever?

00:12:32.380 I think there's a subset of men for which it's very interesting.

00:12:35.040 Like, lots of guys, like, don't care about the thing where you pay for an interaction.

00:12:37.640 But we have examples like strip clubs throughout history are really nice.

00:12:40.840 You go and the girl, you know, makes you feel special for a little while.

00:12:43.120 And I think that's a big part of why OnlyFans and camming are successful.

00:12:46.780 It's because, like, despite the stereotypes for a lot of men, like, sex is not completely separable from romantic interaction.

00:12:54.400 Like, it's very much about validation.

00:12:56.160 Like, guys, like, when I was an escort, about 80%, I would say, roughly, of men really wanted to make sure I had a good time.

00:13:03.000 Even though they didn't have to, they were paying me a ridiculous amount of money for me to do whatever they wanted.

00:13:08.180 And they spent that time trying to please me.

00:13:11.220 And so I think, like, what guys really want is, like, for a woman to sort of, like, gaze upon him sexually and be like, yes, you are valuable.

00:13:18.300 I am sexually aroused by you.

00:13:20.660 I affirm you as a sexual being.

00:13:22.960 And that's not something that porn can do.

00:13:24.840 And who's the type of person that uses OnlyFans?

00:13:28.660 Is it all male?

00:13:29.900 Is it male and female?

00:13:32.000 Does it have, like, a component where a couple will watch a cam girl together?

00:13:37.780 Occasionally, but it's quite low.

00:13:39.460 I haven't actually, like, tracked stats for this, but off the top of my head, I'd say 99% male.

00:13:43.780 Yeah.

00:13:44.200 Every once in a while, I get, like, a couple being like, hey, we watched you together.

00:13:47.880 And then even rarer than that, I get, like, a lady who's like, I'm gay, I'm really into you.

00:13:52.320 But it's almost entirely men.

00:13:53.740 It's almost entirely men.

00:13:54.880 I mean, look, that does make a lot of sense.

00:13:58.780 And when did you know that you were onto something, that you could make this really work for you?

00:14:04.740 For OnlyFans?

00:14:05.460 Yeah.

00:14:05.860 Pretty fast.

00:14:06.840 The thing is, like, I just happened to already be in a position for OnlyFans to work for me.

00:14:11.340 I've been doing sex work for a long time.

00:14:13.080 But I'm not very, I'm not, like, a top 10 at charisma skill in person.

00:14:18.580 So if I'm doing a thing where I have to seduce a lot of men by acting like this, like, it's quite,

00:14:22.160 I have to figure it out top down.

00:14:23.860 A lot of girls are able to emanate this bottom up.

00:14:26.280 But with OnlyFans, the strength is not in being charismatic.

00:14:28.760 The strength is in knowing how to market, how to, like, how to market to men, how to do funnels,

00:14:33.880 how to, like, track conversion.

00:14:34.840 And, like, most of my job with OnlyFans was not posting to OnlyFans.

00:14:38.960 It was, like, 80% sitting behind spreadsheets when I was doing it for the time.

00:14:42.980 Doesn't sound that sexy when you say it like that.

00:14:45.640 It's not.

00:14:46.720 And I'm curious.

00:14:47.860 I mean, obviously, the one thing we haven't talked about, and this isn't going to be news to you,

00:14:52.960 but doing sex work online exposes you to a lot of people.

00:14:58.780 And with that come certain risks.

00:15:00.920 So here you are.

00:15:01.800 You have a factory job.

00:15:02.820 You try this camming for a night.

00:15:04.860 You make more money than you make at the factory.

00:15:09.060 Did you at that point think, well, like, this is not, this has got some serious trade-offs,

00:15:14.320 let's put it like that?

00:15:15.840 I mean, in contrast to the factory, like, I mean, I was vaguely aware of them.

00:15:20.500 But, like, my current life was so bad, I was willing to take them.

00:15:23.480 And in hindsight, it's still worth it.

00:15:25.300 But for a long time, it wasn't that bad because I wasn't super well-known.

00:15:29.420 And it's been getting worse recently.

00:15:31.820 But it does, there are downsides.

00:15:33.460 Like, I'm not saying that, like, every girl should just go try sex work.

00:15:36.240 If you're desperate, it's probably better for you because, like, even with the downsides,

00:15:39.240 it's better than, like, a life spent working at the factory.

00:15:41.560 That was really awful.

00:15:43.580 Do you think sex work is less bad than working in a factory?

00:15:48.720 I mean, it depends on the person.

00:15:49.860 People have different constitutions and tolerance for things.

00:15:52.380 Like, I'm not universally recommending it.

00:15:54.740 But for me and a lot of girls that I know who are in sex work, it was very, absolutely.

00:15:59.400 They're like, I can't believe that people are so, this happens all the time.

00:16:02.980 I'm like, oh, I'm in sex work.

00:16:03.820 And people are like, oh, are you okay?

00:16:04.920 Like, are you worried about the downsides, you know?

00:16:06.640 And I'm like, nobody ever said that to me when I worked at the factory,

00:16:09.700 which was way worse for my mental health.

00:16:11.780 I was, like, drinking to cope.

00:16:13.500 And that's, like, a classic sign of, like, oh, this is really hard for you.

00:16:16.260 I've never had a drink to cope with being a sex worker.

00:16:18.920 But I think the thing that people think when they see sex works,

00:16:23.280 one of the downsides, shall we say, is a reputational damage, Ayla.

00:16:26.860 Yeah, definitely.

00:16:27.840 Particularly for a woman.

00:16:28.900 You know, if you then want to move on and you want to leave,

00:16:31.680 because there's going to be a time, I assume,

00:16:33.160 that you're going to want to leave this behind.

00:16:34.640 I don't know if you want to start a family,

00:16:36.180 if you want to get married, all of those things.

00:16:38.500 And you go, that's something you can never truly leave behind, is it?

00:16:42.660 Absolutely.

00:16:44.700 Although I suspect that when most people are evaluating this,

00:16:47.620 they're, like, not aware of how different cultures can be.

00:16:50.720 Like, I think the thing that you're describing would be true

00:16:53.060 for a pretty large majority of American culture

00:16:56.000 and probably in general Western culture,

00:16:58.140 and especially non-Western culture.

00:17:01.420 We're going to keep going.

00:17:02.840 Yeah, can't imagine it would go down well in Saudi Arabia.

00:17:05.260 No.

00:17:06.020 Although I'm sure there's plenty of consumers from Saudi Arabia.

00:17:08.480 But anyway, carry on.

00:17:09.200 Yeah, but this has legitimately never been a problem in my life

00:17:13.500 because I'm polyamorous,

00:17:14.900 and there's just, like, a whole subculture,

00:17:16.880 thriving subculture of people who are pretty sexually open

00:17:19.260 and don't mind it.

00:17:20.580 Like, in my friend groups,

00:17:22.440 especially in the Bay when I live there,

00:17:24.820 people don't give a shit.

00:17:27.220 Like, I'll go up and I'll say,

00:17:28.140 hey, I'm a sex worker on dates,

00:17:29.180 and a guy will be like, oh, yeah,

00:17:30.200 my ex-girlfriend was a sex worker too.

00:17:31.820 She really liked it.

00:17:33.480 Like, it's a very common conversation.

00:17:34.640 It's just not a thing that registers as an issue.

00:17:37.820 Really?

00:17:38.140 Like, you know, I've always thought I'm very liberal.

00:17:41.100 Maybe I'm just old and conservative

00:17:43.580 because I can't get my head...

00:17:45.440 Look, I can't get my head around polyamory.

00:17:48.440 Please explain it to me.

00:17:49.780 Like, what are the benefits?

00:17:51.040 Like, to me, it just looks like needless admin,

00:17:53.780 complications, frustrations.

00:17:57.020 Is it...

00:17:58.980 Just explain it to me, please.

00:18:01.120 I don't understand.

00:18:02.780 Well, I mean, you're not wrong,

00:18:04.740 but the full story, I think,

00:18:06.140 is a little bit more nuanced.

00:18:07.360 Yeah.

00:18:07.480 Like, I did a study where I measured,

00:18:09.440 I think, 30,000 people.

00:18:10.560 I asked them about their relationship.

00:18:11.920 I had them do a survey.

00:18:13.160 I asked them, how polyamorous,

00:18:14.200 how monogamous are you on a scale

00:18:15.500 from, like, one to seven?

00:18:17.240 And then I asked them a whole bunch of questions

00:18:18.500 about the quality of their relationship,

00:18:19.740 how much sex,

00:18:20.220 how long have you been in this relationship?

00:18:21.940 And people who are fully monogamous

00:18:24.360 and fully polyamorous

00:18:25.300 have roughly the same relationship quality.

00:18:28.140 They've been in relationships

00:18:28.880 for the same amount of time,

00:18:29.980 so it's not like people who are poly

00:18:31.700 are breaking up more.

00:18:33.020 And they were like,

00:18:33.920 yeah, it's still going strong.

00:18:35.660 But people in the middle

00:18:36.800 had much worse ratings.

00:18:39.620 And the problem is,

00:18:40.660 if you're going to be selecting

00:18:42.080 from a poly population,

00:18:43.280 most people who aren't monogamous

00:18:44.720 are only slightly not monogamous.

00:18:46.840 They're, like, a little bit poly.

00:18:48.080 The majority of all people

00:18:49.320 who are not monogamous

00:18:50.220 are in the middle.

00:18:52.320 So if you're just selecting randomly

00:18:54.320 for the non-monogamous population,

00:18:56.200 it's going to look pretty bad.

00:18:57.560 What does slightly poly mean?

00:18:59.480 Usually a married couple

00:19:01.040 opens their relationship

00:19:02.020 but they still,

00:19:03.940 they date together.

00:19:05.080 Or a married couple

00:19:05.720 opens their relationship

00:19:06.540 but, like, the person

00:19:07.500 isn't having a full-time relationship.

00:19:09.240 It's just sex.

00:19:10.380 Like, that's an example.

00:19:11.680 So the question, I guess,

00:19:13.480 I want to ask is,

00:19:14.420 how do you divorce sex from feelings?

00:19:16.080 Or are these people

00:19:17.120 who, by their nature

00:19:19.280 or biologically,

00:19:20.400 able to do that very easily?

00:19:22.140 Yeah, my guess to some degree

00:19:23.320 it's innate and genetic.

00:19:24.460 A lot of poly people

00:19:25.140 I know, myself included,

00:19:26.220 like, don't really process jealousy

00:19:27.580 the same way.

00:19:28.600 Like, I remember

00:19:29.140 before I had heard of polyamorous

00:19:30.580 trying to date this guy

00:19:31.360 when I was a teenager.

00:19:32.300 And he went and he was like,

00:19:33.260 I caught him sexting

00:19:33.960 with another girl.

00:19:35.000 And I was like,

00:19:36.620 grr, don't do that.

00:19:38.740 Like, but I remember not really,

00:19:39.940 I was like,

00:19:41.000 I couldn't summon the genuine anger

00:19:42.640 because I'm like,

00:19:43.120 what does this have to do with me?

00:19:44.560 Like, he still wants to have sex with me,

00:19:46.000 he still loves me.

00:19:46.660 Like, I don't understand

00:19:47.320 why this is hurting me in any way.

00:19:49.580 And then as soon as I heard of polyamory,

00:19:50.940 I was like, oh yeah.

00:19:51.880 So my guess is if you're thinking

00:19:52.880 of this closer to, like,

00:19:53.980 almost to sexual orientation,

00:19:55.460 I think that this,

00:19:56.560 I'm not necessarily accurate,

00:19:58.060 but I think this explains

00:19:58.920 a lot closer to what's going on.

00:20:00.300 Like, people are just processing

00:20:01.780 relationships differently.

00:20:03.160 And if you have a whole bunch

00:20:03.780 of those people in a culture,

00:20:04.800 it goes pretty well.

00:20:06.260 But the problem is

00:20:07.180 you have to be quite dedicated

00:20:08.280 for it to seem to go well,

00:20:10.120 at least in my data.

00:20:10.880 I think a lot of people

00:20:12.640 are doing the partial thing

00:20:13.780 as a way to sort of solve problems

00:20:16.000 that exist in previous relationships.

00:20:17.840 Like, if you have monogamous people

00:20:19.600 going, oh, we're going to try,

00:20:21.040 you know, opening it up

00:20:21.880 because, like, we're having these issues.

00:20:23.220 I'm like, if you're opening it up

00:20:24.680 to solve issues,

00:20:25.480 it's not going to solve

00:20:26.400 your relationship.

00:20:27.640 Like, now you're just going to be poly

00:20:28.720 with a terrible relationship.

00:20:30.620 Yeah.

00:20:30.920 And it's also as well,

00:20:32.220 I think, you know,

00:20:33.040 there's an element of fashion to it

00:20:34.480 where kind of no one wants

00:20:35.700 to be like a straight white dude anymore.

00:20:37.360 Like, everybody, like, wants to be,

00:20:39.320 you know, something fluid

00:20:40.280 or polys is something else.

00:20:43.860 But I just don't think

00:20:45.960 many people are compatible with it.

00:20:47.560 I think most people

00:20:48.620 would really struggle

00:20:50.020 to see their girlfriend go off

00:20:52.140 and get, you know,

00:20:54.020 have sex with another dude.

00:20:56.020 I think to some degree you're right.

00:20:57.980 But there is a thing where,

00:20:59.640 so one, most people

00:21:00.600 kind of aren't monogamous.

00:21:02.580 Anyway, you want your,

00:21:03.840 you don't want your partner

00:21:04.500 to go fuck other people,

00:21:05.320 but you want to, right?

00:21:07.360 Like, the cheating rates

00:21:08.180 in long-term relationships

00:21:08.980 are really high.

00:21:09.980 Like, if you measure cheating rates

00:21:11.140 by the amount of time

00:21:12.240 you've been in the relationship

00:21:13.180 and not by age,

00:21:14.220 which is what most cheating rates do,

00:21:15.760 it seems to be much higher,

00:21:17.180 like 40, 45%.

00:21:18.560 Yeah.

00:21:19.440 It's really depressing.

00:21:21.040 So most people, by action,

00:21:22.840 in a world where we

00:21:23.800 are horribly punished cheating,

00:21:25.220 are still cheating

00:21:25.960 at really high rates,

00:21:27.000 which makes me think

00:21:27.600 that we're not inherently monogamous

00:21:29.220 in the way that we would,

00:21:30.320 like, aspire to be.

00:21:31.640 This doesn't mean

00:21:32.160 you shouldn't do it.

00:21:33.960 Well, monogamy,

00:21:34.720 people would argue,

00:21:35.640 I mean, Louise Perry,

00:21:36.320 who you've done a debate with,

00:21:37.540 who's a friend of ours,

00:21:39.460 she would argue monogamy

00:21:41.100 is an adaptation

00:21:41.980 for stabilizing society

00:21:44.400 that works very well

00:21:45.760 to do that.

00:21:47.620 I think this is probably true

00:21:49.060 at some points in history.

00:21:50.780 Do you not think it's true now?

00:21:52.620 My guess is that

00:21:53.640 it is not sustainably true now.

00:21:56.320 Or rather that, like,

00:21:58.260 there are a lot of things

00:21:59.500 which are good

00:22:00.140 if you only have the capacity

00:22:01.880 to process, like,

00:22:02.720 simple nuance.

00:22:04.040 Like, it's probably

00:22:05.720 if you have,

00:22:07.840 let's see,

00:22:08.200 I'm trying to think of an example.

00:22:09.840 If you have somebody

00:22:11.160 who, like, abused their wife,

00:22:13.040 it's probably good

00:22:14.080 as a social construct

00:22:14.920 to just, like,

00:22:15.480 punish that person.

00:22:16.460 But if we have the capacity

00:22:17.700 as a society

00:22:18.520 to make nuance

00:22:19.240 between did you do it,

00:22:20.500 like, because you had

00:22:21.220 a brain tumor

00:22:21.780 and we remove the brain tumor,

00:22:23.980 you no longer feel

00:22:24.920 violent urges,

00:22:26.220 then I would say

00:22:27.100 it would be good

00:22:27.920 to make this nuance distinction.

00:22:29.780 And so, like,

00:22:30.180 I think that a lot

00:22:30.920 of these rules

00:22:31.640 are sort of good

00:22:32.220 for more simplistic

00:22:33.000 versions of society

00:22:33.880 where just culturally

00:22:34.700 we don't have the ability

00:22:35.960 at scale

00:22:36.680 to determine nuance.

00:22:38.360 But I feel like

00:22:38.980 we're kind of hitting

00:22:39.640 the point in culture

00:22:41.100 where we are able to.

00:22:42.840 And I'm like,

00:22:43.600 the reality is

00:22:44.700 if we are going

00:22:45.540 to look at the nuance,

00:22:46.540 like, monogamy

00:22:47.340 is, like, stable

00:22:48.120 in some ways,

00:22:48.840 but there's lots of versions

00:22:49.700 of non-monogamy

00:22:50.320 that have been stable

00:22:50.980 throughout history

00:22:51.660 and a lot of people

00:22:53.080 are deeply unhappy in it.

00:22:54.920 And is there a way

00:22:55.880 that we can figure out

00:22:56.740 to move forward

00:22:57.380 where we are not

00:22:58.240 crushing people's souls?

00:22:59.620 Like, if you look

00:23:00.120 at satisfaction rates,

00:23:01.100 happiness rates

00:23:01.620 in really long-term

00:23:02.320 monogamous relationships,

00:23:03.360 they're really low.

00:23:04.420 And to be fair,

00:23:04.860 they're not great

00:23:05.420 in polyamory either.

00:23:06.380 But I'm saying, like,

00:23:06.880 whatever we're doing,

00:23:07.860 like, whatever conception

00:23:08.560 we're having

00:23:09.080 about relationships,

00:23:10.440 like, I believe

00:23:11.980 that we can figure out

00:23:13.300 a way to move forward

00:23:14.340 and to, like,

00:23:15.000 figure out how

00:23:15.420 to raise happiness

00:23:16.100 and it's probably

00:23:16.780 not going to look

00:23:17.320 like the thing

00:23:17.700 it used to look like.

00:23:18.780 No, and it's

00:23:20.360 an interesting point.

00:23:21.080 I suppose the one thing

00:23:22.060 is that what you're

00:23:23.460 talking about

00:23:24.020 is essentially

00:23:24.560 you're saying

00:23:25.080 there is room

00:23:26.120 for subcultures

00:23:27.200 to exist within society

00:23:28.700 where people can go

00:23:30.120 and live in the way

00:23:31.200 that's suitable for them.

00:23:32.740 The bit that that leaves out

00:23:34.180 is the raising of children

00:23:35.700 because you may be poly

00:23:39.200 and you will be with,

00:23:40.820 I suppose,

00:23:41.340 several people

00:23:42.220 over the course

00:23:43.160 of your lifetime.

00:23:43.760 If you were to have kids,

00:23:45.500 you don't know

00:23:46.240 if you've got

00:23:46.980 a genetically

00:23:47.680 poly-predisposed kid

00:23:49.320 and they're being raised

00:23:50.440 in that culture,

00:23:51.660 just kind of like

00:23:52.340 you were raised

00:23:52.900 in a Christian

00:23:54.020 conservative culture

00:23:54.940 and you had to go

00:23:55.540 and find a different one,

00:23:56.440 right?

00:23:57.560 So it complicates

00:23:58.820 the raising of children

00:23:59.700 because norms

00:24:00.940 that exist,

00:24:02.480 they exclude

00:24:03.520 minority people

00:24:04.740 but they also

00:24:06.100 give the majority

00:24:07.120 a structure

00:24:07.820 for how to live life

00:24:08.900 without which

00:24:09.980 people will be lost

00:24:11.500 quite a lot of the time.

00:24:12.460 Would that be fair to say?

00:24:13.440 I think that this is true

00:24:14.740 but you could argue

00:24:15.520 should we not have

00:24:16.200 gay people raising kids?

00:24:17.640 And some people

00:24:18.120 do argue this

00:24:18.800 but they are a minority

00:24:19.920 raising children

00:24:20.920 and we generally

00:24:22.080 seem to be okay

00:24:23.060 with this

00:24:23.520 and secondarily

00:24:25.460 like my guess

00:24:26.020 is that probably

00:24:26.600 more people

00:24:27.400 are interested

00:24:28.160 in some degree

00:24:28.860 of the poly-spectrum

00:24:29.720 than we think.

00:24:31.220 Like we have such

00:24:31.820 like can you remember

00:24:33.000 the last romantic movie

00:24:34.520 you saw that was

00:24:35.160 polyamorous?

00:24:36.640 No.

00:24:37.200 Yeah, they don't exist.

00:24:38.920 We just don't have monogamy.

00:24:40.340 Give it a couple of years,

00:24:41.460 Aya.

00:24:42.120 I reckon we're gonna

00:24:43.020 see one soon.

00:24:44.600 I would hope so.

00:24:45.800 Yeah.

00:24:46.060 The thing is like

00:24:46.500 we have like a lot

00:24:47.200 of like gay cinema

00:24:48.380 but we have nothing

00:24:50.080 for polyamory at all

00:24:51.440 and we have like

00:24:52.500 a whole culture

00:24:53.160 that's structured

00:24:53.680 to show monogamous people

00:24:55.100 like how to live.

00:24:56.260 This is,

00:24:56.860 these are the subtle

00:24:57.920 social rules

00:24:58.900 for how to communicate

00:24:59.900 with each other

00:25:00.460 in a monogamous setting

00:25:01.560 which I think is great.

00:25:02.700 Like it really helps

00:25:03.380 it run a lot smoother

00:25:04.340 and if you,

00:25:06.380 and my guess is

00:25:06.900 if we had some instructions

00:25:08.240 like some cultural

00:25:09.240 media instructions

00:25:10.180 for like how do

00:25:10.940 poly relationships work?

00:25:12.300 How do you handle jealousy?

00:25:14.500 Because we just

00:25:15.220 don't know this

00:25:15.900 and I think it would

00:25:16.980 make it go a lot smoother

00:25:17.840 and I think probably

00:25:18.680 a lot more people

00:25:19.200 would feel comfortable

00:25:20.300 trying a poly lifestyle

00:25:21.360 in a way that actually

00:25:22.660 ends up being successful

00:25:23.520 but that is slightly

00:25:25.320 besides your point.

00:25:27.100 Personally,

00:25:27.760 so I think it is true

00:25:28.720 it does seem that

00:25:29.880 poly people raise

00:25:31.060 a lot fewer children.

00:25:32.560 In my data

00:25:33.000 they have kids

00:25:34.080 at around half the rate

00:25:35.000 of people who report

00:25:35.700 to being monogamous

00:25:36.380 even controlling for age

00:25:37.760 and relationship length

00:25:39.040 which is not great

00:25:40.360 but I know a lot of people

00:25:41.860 poly people who do raise kids

00:25:43.120 successfully.

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00:27:38.220 And Aila

00:27:40.740 do you think

00:27:41.240 that this rise

00:27:42.180 of poly

00:27:42.640 and these other

00:27:44.220 kind of lifestyles

00:27:45.720 shall we call them

00:27:46.340 or ways of living

00:27:47.040 do you think

00:27:47.620 it's because

00:27:48.060 we're viewing sex

00:27:48.940 more and more

00:27:49.420 as a form of recreation

00:27:51.100 rather than

00:27:52.720 in the biblical sense

00:27:53.980 where it was procreation?

00:27:55.680 I guess

00:27:56.400 which I mean

00:27:56.980 comes from

00:27:57.360 probably birth control

00:27:58.060 right?

00:27:59.180 Like if you're not

00:27:59.700 we no longer have

00:28:00.620 like God's eternal punishment

00:28:01.700 for having sex

00:28:02.800 I can have sex

00:28:04.300 without the punishment

00:28:04.780 It's a very

00:28:05.340 very particular

00:28:06.260 way of describing

00:28:07.160 children

00:28:07.800 You met my son

00:28:11.260 earlier

00:28:11.580 I don't consider him

00:28:12.800 God's punishment

00:28:13.600 for sex

00:28:14.200 I have to say

00:28:14.800 I'm thinking of

00:28:16.100 like whorehouses

00:28:17.300 back in the day

00:28:17.980 without birth control

00:28:18.740 where all these

00:28:19.440 children are running around

00:28:20.120 you don't have the

00:28:20.820 societal capacity

00:28:22.020 to care for them

00:28:22.680 This is what I mean

00:28:24.600 about children

00:28:25.140 are lovely

00:28:25.640 I would like to have kids

00:28:26.660 but in this sense

00:28:28.880 yeah

00:28:29.280 but it's divorced

00:28:31.460 because of birth control

00:28:32.300 Yeah

00:28:32.800 That's an interesting point

00:28:34.940 What I was going to ask you

00:28:36.620 about coming back

00:28:37.360 to sex work

00:28:38.140 is one of the things

00:28:38.820 I read or watched you say

00:28:40.980 which I found very interesting

00:28:42.060 was

00:28:42.480 camming and OnlyFans

00:28:44.920 you said

00:28:45.480 was

00:28:46.140 quite unhealthy

00:28:47.540 in terms of

00:28:48.120 your well-being

00:28:49.520 but being an escort

00:28:51.800 was much better

00:28:53.000 Yeah

00:28:53.560 I think that is

00:28:54.720 incredibly counterintuitive

00:28:56.280 to a lot of people

00:28:57.220 because

00:28:58.420 I suppose

00:28:59.300 because of the

00:29:00.120 attachments they have

00:29:01.420 to what sex means

00:29:02.580 I suppose

00:29:03.920 they would see it

00:29:04.760 as unwanted sex

00:29:06.640 and therefore

00:29:07.680 if you can at least

00:29:08.460 not have it

00:29:09.260 with another person

00:29:10.780 then it's good

00:29:11.600 but you clearly

00:29:12.080 have a completely

00:29:12.620 different experience of it

00:29:13.660 Well we have norms

00:29:14.520 where people

00:29:14.920 are expected

00:29:15.620 to have unwanted sex

00:29:16.460 all the time

00:29:17.000 in long-term

00:29:17.500 monogamous marriages

00:29:18.560 and I wouldn't argue

00:29:20.520 that's necessarily bad

00:29:21.480 like maybe to some degree

00:29:23.060 there's a duty

00:29:23.560 where as a wife

00:29:24.720 you should keep

00:29:25.340 your husband satisfied

00:29:26.460 because if he can only

00:29:27.360 get sex from one place

00:29:28.320 and typically

00:29:28.880 it's the man

00:29:29.320 wanting sex

00:29:29.740 from the women

00:29:30.120 although it's not always

00:29:31.160 so I don't know

00:29:32.500 like the concept

00:29:33.280 of like having

00:29:33.840 to have sex

00:29:34.280 that you're just

00:29:34.660 like not that into

00:29:35.400 it's like sure

00:29:35.900 people do this

00:29:36.420 people have been

00:29:36.840 doing this

00:29:37.100 for all of human history

00:29:38.140 man

00:29:38.420 it's like

00:29:39.400 and by people

00:29:40.300 you mean women

00:29:41.040 mostly

00:29:42.240 mostly yeah

00:29:44.000 but I was also

00:29:45.540 really surprised

00:29:46.100 to find this

00:29:46.860 with the sex work

00:29:47.380 thing too

00:29:47.840 like it was

00:29:49.520 after I did escorting

00:29:50.400 and I went back

00:29:50.820 to OnlyFans

00:29:51.340 and I was like

00:29:51.740 it just feels

00:29:52.620 dehumanizing

00:29:53.340 like in both ways

00:29:54.280 I feel like

00:29:54.660 I'm dehumanizing

00:29:55.300 my customers

00:29:55.860 and my customers

00:29:56.580 are dehumanizing me

00:29:57.620 when I'm online

00:29:58.880 but in person

00:29:59.780 like to the degree

00:30:01.880 that I can safely

00:30:03.160 and comfortably

00:30:03.700 feel love

00:30:04.800 for my client

00:30:05.500 I allow myself

00:30:06.140 to do so

00:30:06.760 I really like

00:30:08.160 feeling like

00:30:08.660 a part of me

00:30:09.320 really cares about

00:30:10.660 them in that moment

00:30:11.400 and that's the

00:30:13.000 thing that I just

00:30:14.180 can't experience

00:30:14.820 with OnlyFans

00:30:15.460 because it's somebody

00:30:16.540 on the other side

00:30:17.180 of a text box

00:30:17.900 and you're communicating

00:30:18.820 often asynchronously

00:30:19.780 but like

00:30:21.840 in person

00:30:22.620 you get to like

00:30:23.260 have that

00:30:23.800 one-on-one thing

00:30:24.760 like my entire

00:30:25.460 being right now

00:30:26.340 is like having

00:30:26.900 a genuine connection

00:30:27.900 with another individual

00:30:29.140 and then you can

00:30:30.420 like touch souls

00:30:31.060 a little bit

00:30:31.520 and I love

00:30:33.020 every

00:30:33.540 like that this

00:30:34.560 happened for every

00:30:35.120 client that I've

00:30:35.620 had in the past

00:30:36.260 that just

00:30:37.740 not so much

00:30:38.760 with OnlyFans

00:30:39.160 it's interesting

00:30:39.600 I have a couple

00:30:40.180 of questions

00:30:40.900 about that

00:30:41.420 but the first one

00:30:42.320 is I think

00:30:42.700 what you're describing

00:30:43.560 oddly enough

00:30:44.920 and I didn't expect

00:30:45.700 this to come up

00:30:46.420 in a conversation

00:30:47.340 with a sex worker

00:30:48.260 is actually

00:30:49.300 the human paradigm

00:30:50.840 in the 21st century

00:30:52.600 which is

00:30:53.260 we're all

00:30:54.500 connecting

00:30:55.320 in ways that are

00:30:56.400 fake through avatars

00:30:57.700 and actually

00:30:58.920 we all crave

00:30:59.620 a real human connection

00:31:00.780 in meat space

00:31:01.680 yeah

00:31:02.340 and I found

00:31:03.820 it made me feel

00:31:04.440 better too

00:31:04.960 yeah

00:31:05.540 really

00:31:05.940 so the question

00:31:07.200 that I was gonna

00:31:08.140 ask though

00:31:08.720 is and this is

00:31:09.400 coming from

00:31:10.220 a normie place

00:31:11.080 so I hope

00:31:11.800 it doesn't sound

00:31:12.540 judgmental or whatever

00:31:13.720 but I think

00:31:14.500 a lot of people

00:31:15.180 will want to know

00:31:15.880 this

00:31:16.140 is like

00:31:17.080 you can't be

00:31:18.940 attracted

00:31:19.460 to every guy

00:31:20.440 that wants

00:31:20.880 to pay you money

00:31:21.500 to have sex

00:31:22.020 with you

00:31:22.240 right

00:31:22.460 that's not

00:31:23.460 possible

00:31:23.880 I'm guessing

00:31:24.740 right

00:31:25.500 yeah

00:31:25.720 well I'm not

00:31:26.180 attracted to

00:31:26.680 most men

00:31:27.400 right

00:31:28.280 yeah

00:31:28.600 thank you

00:31:29.280 for making

00:31:29.640 that

00:31:29.840 but you know

00:31:34.140 what I mean

00:31:34.540 though

00:31:34.720 it's like

00:31:34.980 you talk

00:31:35.380 about having

00:31:36.140 that connection

00:31:36.900 and almost

00:31:37.460 feeling a love

00:31:38.380 for somebody

00:31:39.200 that you're not

00:31:39.660 even attracted

00:31:40.300 to

00:31:40.680 how does that

00:31:41.900 happen

00:31:42.200 I can't tell

00:31:43.080 how much

00:31:43.380 I'm a normal

00:31:43.940 woman or a weird

00:31:44.660 woman when it

00:31:45.240 comes to sexual

00:31:45.840 response

00:31:46.380 but

00:31:48.220 I just

00:31:50.280 like

00:31:50.640 my vagina

00:31:51.840 just responds

00:31:52.540 with lubrication

00:31:53.580 when there's

00:31:54.320 a new penis

00:31:54.860 it doesn't matter

00:31:56.020 if I'm attracted

00:31:56.440 to them or not

00:31:56.980 so

00:31:58.260 it worked

00:31:59.060 fine

00:31:59.540 but like

00:32:00.340 to me

00:32:00.580 I'm not

00:32:00.940 processing

00:32:01.440 like

00:32:01.840 is this guy

00:32:02.640 hot

00:32:03.480 like

00:32:04.560 to me

00:32:04.880 there's just

00:32:05.180 like

00:32:05.380 dude

00:32:06.000 it's like

00:32:06.360 a generic

00:32:06.840 like

00:32:07.300 dude

00:32:07.700 form

00:32:08.180 and I

00:32:10.200 just

00:32:10.400 like

00:32:10.600 have

00:32:10.780 sex

00:32:10.940 it's like

00:32:11.220 giving them

00:32:11.520 a massage

00:32:11.960 I don't

00:32:12.260 know

00:32:12.460 it's like

00:32:12.720 do I have

00:32:12.960 to be

00:32:13.100 attracted

00:32:13.360 to someone

00:32:13.760 to give

00:32:14.100 them

00:32:14.220 a massage

00:32:14.760 it's like

00:32:15.360 giving them

00:32:15.780 a massage

00:32:16.420 or like

00:32:17.920 yeah

00:32:18.060 or doing

00:32:18.420 therapy

00:32:18.800 it's like

00:32:19.120 I don't

00:32:19.320 have to

00:32:19.560 find you

00:32:19.860 hot

00:32:20.100 to do

00:32:20.720 therapy

00:32:21.100 no I

00:32:21.560 get it

00:32:21.880 but

00:32:22.060 but sex

00:32:22.920 is different

00:32:23.480 surely

00:32:23.940 I'm

00:32:24.680 yeah

00:32:24.940 this is

00:32:25.300 where I

00:32:25.540 can't

00:32:25.800 tell if

00:32:26.060 I'm

00:32:26.200 similar

00:32:26.640 to most

00:32:27.080 women

00:32:27.300 or not

00:32:27.580 no you're

00:32:27.980 not

00:32:28.160 similar

00:32:28.460 to most

00:32:28.880 women

00:32:29.080 I can

00:32:29.440 tell you

00:32:29.820 that

00:32:29.980 but a lot

00:32:30.400 of other

00:32:30.680 sex

00:32:30.880 I've talked

00:32:31.500 to it's

00:32:31.840 like

00:32:32.020 I don't

00:32:32.220 know

00:32:32.340 this is

00:32:33.580 where we're

00:32:33.940 getting

00:32:34.120 to

00:32:34.400 is

00:32:34.600 like

00:32:34.880 I

00:32:35.500 think

00:32:35.820 there's

00:32:36.100 probably

00:32:36.460 a minority

00:32:37.840 of women

00:32:44.760 have to

00:32:44.960 call it

00:32:45.220 normal

00:32:45.520 you can

00:32:45.820 just call

00:32:46.160 it the

00:32:46.420 majority

00:32:46.820 or whatever

00:32:47.320 where

00:32:48.100 sex is a

00:32:49.640 tool for

00:32:50.200 creating

00:32:50.740 long-term

00:32:51.280 attachment

00:32:51.780 to create

00:32:52.500 security

00:32:53.080 for the

00:32:53.520 potential

00:32:54.460 creation

00:32:55.100 of life

00:32:55.600 that then

00:32:56.020 is protected

00:32:56.660 and fed

00:32:57.140 etc

00:32:57.500 right

00:32:57.880 but

00:33:00.360 yeah

00:33:03.360 it's

00:33:04.220 sorry

00:33:04.660 no no

00:33:05.300 I was just

00:33:05.820 going to

00:33:06.120 say

00:33:06.420 so

00:33:08.220 I mean

00:33:10.000 okay

00:33:10.900 right

00:33:11.200 I guess

00:33:11.900 the question

00:33:12.300 I want to

00:33:12.700 ask

00:33:13.000 is

00:33:13.380 isn't

00:33:14.460 sex

00:33:14.780 more

00:33:15.180 than

00:33:15.380 that

00:33:15.620 isn't

00:33:17.320 sex

00:33:17.780 about

00:33:18.240 connection

00:33:18.780 ultimately

00:33:19.440 isn't

00:33:21.120 it

00:33:21.380 about

00:33:21.840 you know

00:33:22.440 trying

00:33:22.820 to

00:33:22.980 create

00:33:23.320 a

00:33:23.520 bond

00:33:23.800 and

00:33:24.160 therefore

00:33:24.720 I mean

00:33:25.920 that's

00:33:26.140 what I

00:33:26.400 feel

00:33:26.580 sex is

00:33:27.080 but

00:33:27.400 if

00:33:28.080 that

00:33:28.360 is

00:33:28.540 the

00:33:28.700 case

00:33:29.000 then

00:33:29.260 don't

00:33:29.740 you

00:33:30.180 catch

00:33:31.900 feelings

00:33:32.360 as the

00:33:32.860 kids

00:33:33.040 would

00:33:33.200 say

00:33:33.480 from

00:33:33.760 your

00:33:34.140 clients

00:33:34.580 not

00:33:35.420 really

00:33:36.180 not

00:33:37.300 like

00:33:37.700 it

00:33:37.960 takes

00:33:38.140 a lot

00:33:38.320 more

00:33:38.520 than

00:33:38.860 sex

00:33:39.240 for

00:33:39.400 me

00:33:39.500 to

00:33:39.600 catch

00:33:39.800 feelings

00:33:40.220 like

00:33:40.820 I

00:33:40.900 have to

00:33:41.020 like

00:33:41.200 the

00:33:41.340 person

00:33:41.660 like

00:33:42.140 we

00:33:42.400 have to

00:33:42.560 have

00:33:42.660 a

00:33:42.800 connection

00:33:44.460 sex

00:33:44.860 sex

00:33:46.320 can

00:33:46.500 help

00:33:46.800 but

00:33:47.180 there's

00:33:48.900 an

00:33:49.060 example

00:33:49.420 where

00:33:49.920 so

00:33:50.160 I

00:33:50.460 used

00:33:50.600 to

00:33:50.680 throw

00:33:50.800 naked

00:33:51.060 parties

00:33:51.440 and

00:33:51.920 people

00:33:52.680 before

00:33:53.020 they

00:33:53.200 would

00:33:53.320 come

00:33:53.540 would

00:33:53.680 be

00:33:53.820 like

00:33:54.040 oh

00:33:54.280 god

00:33:54.440 this

00:33:54.600 is

00:33:54.720 going

00:33:54.840 to

00:33:54.920 be

00:33:55.000 really

00:33:55.200 weird

00:33:55.460 what

00:33:55.620 if

00:33:55.720 I

00:33:55.800 get

00:33:55.920 a

00:33:56.040 boner

00:33:56.340 what

00:33:56.800 if

00:33:56.880 I'm

00:33:56.980 staring

00:33:57.260 at

00:33:57.400 boobs

00:33:57.620 the

00:33:57.760 whole

00:33:57.880 time

00:33:58.220 it

00:33:58.420 was

00:33:58.540 really

00:33:58.780 nerve

00:33:59.040 wracking

00:33:59.320 then

00:34:00.020 they

00:34:00.140 would

00:34:00.260 come

00:34:00.520 and

00:34:00.720 often

00:34:01.260 report

00:34:01.600 I'm

00:34:01.820 shocked

00:34:02.360 by

00:34:02.600 how

00:34:02.900 quickly

00:34:03.420 my

00:34:03.880 brain

00:34:04.100 recontextualizes

00:34:05.040 nudity

00:34:05.480 I'm

00:34:06.120 here

00:34:06.420 and

00:34:06.600 there's

00:34:06.740 just

00:34:06.860 a

00:34:07.000 bunch

00:34:07.180 of

00:34:07.320 bodies

00:34:07.620 and

00:34:07.880 it's

00:34:08.100 somehow

00:34:08.580 not

00:34:08.860 sexual

00:34:09.260 I

00:34:10.220 didn't

00:34:10.440 expect

00:34:10.680 that

00:34:10.800 this

00:34:10.940 could

00:34:11.060 happen

00:34:11.320 because

00:34:11.580 we've

00:34:11.900 never

00:34:12.060 been

00:34:12.240 exposed

00:34:12.560 to

00:34:12.780 nudity

00:34:13.080 in

00:34:13.220 wide

00:34:13.780 non-sexual

00:34:14.220 contexts

00:34:14.600 before

00:34:14.900 and

00:34:15.560 I

00:34:35.480 as

00:34:35.920 I

00:34:36.120 assume

00:34:36.380 doctors

00:34:36.760 still

00:34:37.100 can

00:34:37.300 get

00:34:37.460 aroused

00:34:37.740 fucking

00:34:38.000 their

00:34:38.200 wives

00:34:38.400 even

00:34:38.600 if

00:34:38.740 they

00:34:38.840 look

00:34:39.020 at

00:34:39.120 a

00:34:39.200 bunch

00:34:39.340 of

00:34:39.440 vaginas

00:34:39.820 but

00:34:40.820 it

00:34:40.980 just

00:34:41.140 expands

00:34:41.700 the

00:34:41.920 ways

00:34:42.220 that

00:34:42.520 sex

00:34:42.720 can

00:34:42.860 be

00:34:43.000 meaningful

00:34:43.340 to

00:34:44.120 you

00:34:44.340 instead

00:34:44.560 of

00:34:44.680 keeping

00:34:44.860 it

00:34:45.000 narrow

00:34:45.240 okay

00:34:45.840 so

00:34:46.700 the

00:34:47.960 other

00:34:48.140 question

00:34:48.620 is

00:34:49.260 the

00:34:50.720 biggest

00:34:51.020 threat

00:34:51.300 to

00:34:51.480 women

00:34:51.680 is

00:34:51.880 men

00:34:52.120 and

00:34:53.960 have

00:34:54.360 you

00:34:54.500 ever

00:34:54.720 worried

00:34:55.440 that

00:34:55.920 you

00:34:56.960 were

00:34:57.120 putting

00:34:57.340 yourself

00:34:57.760 as

00:34:58.060 a

00:34:58.220 woman

00:34:58.420 in

00:34:58.700 a

00:34:58.900 vulnerable

00:34:59.280 position

00:34:59.900 by

00:35:00.720 doing

00:35:01.020 this

00:35:01.240 type

00:35:01.500 work

00:35:01.980 definitely

00:35:03.120 it's

00:35:04.680 like

00:35:04.900 oddly

00:35:06.180 the internet

00:35:06.880 stuff

00:35:07.180 has turned

00:35:07.660 out to be

00:35:07.980 a little

00:35:08.140 bit more

00:35:08.380 threatening

00:35:08.680 there's

00:35:09.740 a guy

00:35:09.980 who showed

00:35:10.260 up my

00:35:10.460 house

00:35:10.680 and tried

00:35:11.160 to murder

00:35:11.520 me

00:35:11.860 last year

00:35:12.580 which was

00:35:13.020 pretty

00:35:13.240 scary

00:35:13.760 I can

00:35:15.080 imagine

00:35:15.360 that's

00:35:16.520 awful

00:35:16.840 so

00:35:17.120 was it

00:35:19.000 I mean

00:35:19.300 obviously

00:35:19.540 we don't

00:35:19.780 want to

00:35:19.920 go too

00:35:20.220 much

00:35:20.400 into

00:35:20.580 detail

00:35:20.900 because

00:35:21.100 we

00:35:21.220 don't

00:35:21.340 want

00:35:21.440 to

00:35:21.500 give

00:35:21.600 this

00:35:21.760 person

00:35:22.020 publicity

00:35:22.460 but

00:35:22.800 was

00:35:23.020 it

00:35:23.220 former

00:35:23.720 client

00:35:24.140 former

00:35:24.540 no

00:35:25.760 idea

00:35:26.000 complete

00:35:26.480 rando

00:35:26.780 never

00:35:27.100 seen

00:35:27.320 him

00:35:27.400 before

00:35:27.720 he

00:35:28.100 had

00:35:28.200 never

00:35:28.340 tried

00:35:28.500 to

00:35:28.620 contact

00:35:28.880 me

00:35:29.180 a guy

00:35:30.120 just

00:35:30.300 showed

00:35:30.440 up

00:35:30.540 at

00:35:30.620 my

00:35:30.740 house

00:35:31.080 dressed

00:35:31.460 as

00:35:31.600 an

00:35:31.720 FBI

00:35:31.980 officer

00:35:32.480 and

00:35:32.660 told

00:35:32.760 me

00:35:32.880 to

00:35:32.960 get

00:35:33.060 in

00:35:33.120 the

00:35:33.200 car

00:35:33.420 so

00:35:33.900 I

00:35:34.000 was

00:35:34.060 under

00:35:34.240 arrest

00:35:34.660 which

00:35:35.720 I

00:35:35.840 believed

00:35:36.140 him

00:35:36.380 because

00:35:37.080 you

00:35:37.420 don't

00:35:37.600 expect

00:35:38.000 but

00:35:38.840 it

00:35:38.960 turned

00:35:39.120 out

00:35:39.300 he

00:35:39.460 had

00:35:39.640 brought

00:35:39.900 like

00:35:40.420 a

00:35:40.540 garrote

00:35:40.880 and

00:35:41.120 hunting

00:35:41.580 knife

00:35:41.820 and

00:35:41.980 stuff

00:35:42.300 and

00:35:43.860 luckily

00:35:44.060 I

00:35:44.180 did

00:35:44.260 not

00:35:44.400 get

00:35:44.560 in

00:35:44.660 the

00:35:44.760 car

00:35:44.940 but

00:35:45.360 you

00:35:45.800 yeah

00:35:46.400 and

00:35:46.820 so

00:35:47.200 and

00:35:47.520 people

00:35:48.360 tracked

00:35:48.740 this

00:35:48.960 person

00:35:49.260 and

00:35:49.420 obviously

00:35:49.640 the

00:35:49.820 police

00:35:50.000 tracked

00:35:50.240 this

00:35:50.400 person

00:35:50.580 yeah

00:35:51.640 and

00:35:51.980 they

00:35:53.000 have

00:35:53.180 no

00:35:53.460 idea

00:35:53.860 how

00:35:54.100 he

00:35:54.260 came

00:35:54.500 to

00:35:54.660 discover

00:35:55.020 who

00:35:55.220 you

00:35:55.360 are

00:35:55.540 why

00:35:55.840 he

00:35:56.040 believed

00:35:56.440 these

00:35:56.720 things

00:35:57.020 or

00:35:57.260 random

00:35:57.820 internet

00:35:58.200 but

00:35:58.840 they

00:35:59.160 found

00:35:59.600 they

00:36:00.560 told

00:36:01.040 me

00:36:01.220 that

00:36:01.380 they

00:36:01.520 found

00:36:01.800 the

00:36:02.100 information

00:36:02.600 of other

00:36:03.000 sex

00:36:03.220 workers

00:36:03.420 in

00:36:03.660 his

00:36:03.780 house

00:36:04.080 so

00:36:05.060 the

00:36:05.580 this

00:36:06.180 is

00:36:06.320 my

00:36:06.480 current

00:36:07.140 theory

00:36:07.360 is

00:36:07.520 that

00:36:07.600 he

00:36:07.680 was

00:36:07.780 just

00:36:07.880 targeting

00:36:08.140 sex

00:36:08.480 workers

00:36:08.720 basically

00:36:09.440 because

00:36:10.360 when

00:36:10.660 I

00:36:10.760 was

00:36:10.900 doing

00:36:11.140 research

00:36:11.700 you

00:36:12.060 sound

00:36:12.420 like

00:36:12.780 you

00:36:13.320 do

00:36:13.720 very

00:36:14.100 well

00:36:14.360 out

00:36:14.520 of

00:36:14.640 this

00:36:14.780 very

00:36:15.240 very

00:36:15.500 well

00:36:15.820 I

00:36:16.380 was

00:36:16.540 reading

00:36:16.880 like

00:36:17.160 $100,000

00:36:17.980 a month

00:36:18.720 OnlyFans

00:36:19.520 $3,000

00:36:20.860 an hour

00:36:21.500 for

00:36:21.860 like

00:36:22.240 a

00:36:22.860 session

00:36:24.120 or whatever

00:36:24.700 it may

00:36:25.060 be called

00:36:25.480 you're

00:36:26.860 coming

00:36:27.040 across

00:36:27.340 very

00:36:27.580 comfortable

00:36:27.980 yeah

00:36:28.440 I know

00:36:28.820 mate

00:36:29.080 I know

00:36:29.520 but

00:36:32.580 I guess

00:36:34.120 do you

00:36:35.360 not

00:36:35.580 feel like

00:36:36.860 you put

00:36:37.320 yourself

00:36:37.720 in danger

00:36:38.660 every

00:36:39.380 time that

00:36:39.900 you do

00:36:40.360 this

00:36:40.760 and

00:36:42.040 I guess

00:36:43.780 is that

00:36:44.140 not a

00:36:44.440 concern

00:36:44.900 a worry

00:36:45.480 that

00:36:45.700 you

00:36:45.860 especially

00:36:46.660 if you

00:36:46.940 don't

00:36:47.280 need

00:36:47.500 the

00:36:47.640 money

00:36:47.820 anymore

00:36:48.240 yeah

00:36:49.500 but

00:36:49.680 I

00:36:50.200 would

00:36:50.400 rather

00:36:50.940 like

00:36:51.580 die

00:36:52.380 being

00:36:53.000 who

00:36:53.220 I

00:36:53.400 am

00:36:53.680 than

00:36:54.640 live

00:36:55.140 trying

00:36:55.720 to

00:36:55.880 hide

00:36:56.160 like

00:36:57.160 if

00:36:57.360 I

00:36:57.480 could

00:36:57.640 go

00:36:58.100 over

00:36:58.300 and

00:36:58.420 be

00:36:58.520 like

00:36:58.700 you

00:36:59.640 oh

00:37:00.080 you're

00:37:00.260 no

00:37:00.400 longer

00:37:00.620 at

00:37:00.840 risk

00:37:01.180 from

00:37:01.560 murder

00:37:01.900 but

00:37:02.580 you

00:37:02.920 are

00:37:03.420 not

00:37:03.660 very

00:37:04.240 open

00:37:04.900 about

00:37:05.100 who

00:37:05.260 you

00:37:05.380 are

00:37:05.480 on

00:37:05.540 the

00:37:05.640 internet

00:37:05.940 or

00:37:06.180 you're

00:37:06.280 trying

00:37:06.440 to

00:37:06.560 hide

00:37:06.700 like

00:37:06.880 I

00:37:07.000 would

00:37:07.140 rather

00:37:07.440 take

00:37:08.940 the

00:37:09.180 scary

00:37:09.540 road

00:37:14.140 I

00:37:14.260 suppose

00:37:14.620 the

00:37:15.000 question

00:37:15.340 is

00:37:15.620 given

00:37:15.940 that

00:37:16.140 you

00:37:16.280 as

00:37:16.540 Francis

00:37:16.820 says

00:37:17.080 you

00:37:17.180 do

00:37:17.320 very

00:37:17.560 well

00:37:17.800 out

00:37:17.960 of

00:37:18.060 OnlyFans

00:37:18.660 you

00:37:21.040 must

00:37:21.400 enjoy

00:37:22.540 escorting

00:37:23.280 yeah

00:37:23.600 clearly

00:37:24.580 which I

00:37:25.180 was surprised

00:37:25.640 to find

00:37:26.040 yeah

00:37:26.280 I think

00:37:28.320 that's

00:37:28.820 really

00:37:29.100 the

00:37:29.360 core

00:37:29.700 of

00:37:29.900 where

00:37:30.120 I

00:37:30.280 think

00:37:30.520 a

00:37:30.800 normal

00:37:31.320 I

00:37:32.120 don't

00:37:32.420 use

00:37:32.660 it

00:37:32.740 in

00:37:32.820 any

00:37:33.020 judgmental

00:37:33.660 sense

00:37:33.800 just

00:37:34.000 a

00:37:34.460 mainstream

00:37:35.760 whatever

00:37:36.300 the

00:37:36.560 fucking

00:37:36.820 I

00:37:37.880 hate

00:37:38.140 this

00:37:38.360 world

00:37:38.680 where

00:37:38.900 you

00:37:39.020 can't

00:37:39.280 just

00:37:39.460 say

00:37:39.760 what

00:37:39.940 you

00:37:40.040 mean

00:37:40.260 I

00:37:41.320 think

00:37:41.700 the

00:37:41.900 disconnect

00:37:42.280 between

00:37:42.800 a normal

00:37:43.420 person

00:37:43.800 and what

00:37:44.120 you're

00:37:44.300 saying

00:37:44.600 is

00:37:44.900 contained

00:37:45.380 in

00:37:45.600 that

00:37:45.800 thing

00:37:46.100 which

00:37:46.420 is

00:37:46.700 you

00:37:47.280 enjoy

00:37:47.980 that

00:37:48.260 you

00:37:48.780 enjoy

00:37:49.180 that

00:37:49.480 work

00:37:50.120 yeah

00:37:51.620 turns out

00:37:53.260 that I

00:37:53.520 like

00:37:53.800 sex

00:37:54.520 with

00:37:54.740 new

00:37:54.900 people

00:37:55.280 it's

00:37:56.160 just

00:37:56.260 really

00:37:56.480 nice

00:37:56.860 and

00:37:58.520 it's

00:37:58.860 difficult

00:37:59.300 to do

00:37:59.880 for me

00:38:00.420 in that

00:38:01.200 I feel

00:38:02.220 kind of

00:38:02.680 awkward

00:38:02.940 and confused

00:38:03.580 about how

00:38:04.180 to initiate

00:38:04.840 sex

00:38:05.160 with another

00:38:05.520 person

00:38:05.920 but if

00:38:07.320 they're

00:38:07.540 paying

00:38:07.800 for it

00:38:08.100 then it's

00:38:08.340 clear

00:38:08.600 oh

00:38:09.060 you show

00:38:09.560 up

00:38:09.720 and the

00:38:10.500 whole

00:38:10.760 thing

00:38:11.040 is laid

00:38:11.320 out

00:38:11.440 for you

00:38:11.700 so

00:38:11.940 you

00:38:12.100 would

00:38:12.660 be

00:38:12.820 doing

00:38:13.040 this

00:38:13.260 anyway

00:38:13.560 but

00:38:13.800 you're

00:38:13.980 just

00:38:14.120 getting

00:38:14.320 paid

00:38:14.560 for it

00:38:14.840 is that

00:38:15.040 what you're

00:38:15.200 saying

00:38:15.400 to some

00:38:16.740 degree

00:38:16.940 if I were

00:38:17.280 doing this

00:38:17.620 for free

00:38:17.920 which I

00:38:18.260 do

00:38:18.740 well

00:38:19.580 I have

00:38:20.480 a survey

00:38:20.860 where people

00:38:21.220 can apply

00:38:21.600 to have

00:38:21.840 sex

00:38:22.020 with me

00:38:22.300 and then

00:38:22.560 if they're

00:38:22.860 like highly

00:38:23.200 sexually

00:38:23.520 compatible

00:38:23.960 then I

00:38:24.300 contact

00:38:24.660 them

00:38:25.060 they're

00:38:27.280 so

00:38:27.440 you're

00:38:27.520 you're

00:38:29.640 I don't

00:38:30.580 like sex

00:38:31.440 I think

00:38:31.780 you like

00:38:32.100 admin

00:38:32.400 I think

00:38:33.040 I like

00:38:33.280 spreadsheets

00:38:33.860 yeah

00:38:34.200 I think

00:38:35.180 what gets

00:38:35.600 you off

00:38:36.020 is Excel

00:38:36.580 let's be

00:38:37.020 honest

00:38:37.260 yeah

00:38:37.800 so you have

00:38:39.820 the survey

00:38:40.340 and you have

00:38:41.240 sex with some

00:38:41.840 of the people

00:38:42.300 who are highly

00:38:42.900 compatible

00:38:43.380 with you

00:38:43.800 what does

00:38:44.320 highly compatible

00:38:44.940 mean

00:38:45.600 are they

00:38:45.900 into the same

00:38:46.660 weird kinks

00:38:47.260 that I'm

00:38:47.560 into

00:38:47.780 okay

00:38:48.180 and this

00:38:48.740 was going

00:38:49.000 to be my

00:38:49.320 other question

00:38:49.760 which is

00:38:50.120 I imagine

00:38:50.580 the people

00:38:51.160 who pay

00:38:51.660 to have

00:38:52.060 sex

00:38:52.400 with the

00:38:53.080 sex worker

00:38:53.620 they have

00:38:54.440 an idea

00:38:55.000 of how

00:38:55.480 they want

00:38:55.900 that to

00:38:56.260 go

00:38:56.580 yeah

00:38:57.380 generally

00:38:57.680 it's quite

00:38:58.020 vanilla

00:38:58.280 really

00:38:59.800 yes

00:39:00.400 super

00:39:00.680 vanilla

00:39:00.920 they just

00:39:02.300 they pay

00:39:03.000 money to

00:39:03.940 have sex

00:39:04.340 in the

00:39:04.580 missionary

00:39:04.780 position

00:39:05.180 basically

00:39:05.660 I mean

00:39:06.720 so I'm

00:39:07.020 not saying

00:39:07.300 that they

00:39:07.560 don't have

00:39:08.060 fetishes

00:39:08.500 I'm saying

00:39:09.000 that in

00:39:09.360 general

00:39:09.700 the way

00:39:10.320 that escorting

00:39:11.140 is structured

00:39:11.580 is that

00:39:11.900 you're not

00:39:12.180 supposed to

00:39:12.660 discuss

00:39:13.120 what you're

00:39:14.360 into

00:39:14.600 beforehand

00:39:15.060 because for

00:39:15.740 legal risk

00:39:16.240 reasons

00:39:16.660 there's a lot

00:39:17.520 of things

00:39:17.860 about the fact

00:39:18.320 that escorting

00:39:18.940 is illegal

00:39:19.260 that makes

00:39:19.640 it like

00:39:20.580 hard

00:39:20.860 like for

00:39:22.320 example

00:39:22.520 I did

00:39:22.820 get

00:39:23.040 assaulted

00:39:23.360 once

00:39:23.720 when I

00:39:23.960 was

00:39:24.080 escorting

00:39:24.480 couldn't

00:39:24.760 go to

00:39:24.940 the

00:39:25.060 police

00:39:25.360 but that

00:39:26.480 aside

00:39:26.780 yeah

00:39:28.100 so you're

00:39:28.380 not allowed

00:39:28.760 to basically

00:39:30.020 talk about

00:39:30.520 sex acts

00:39:31.000 in advance

00:39:31.760 and so it's

00:39:32.200 quite hard

00:39:32.800 for people

00:39:33.100 to locate

00:39:33.960 and negotiate

00:39:34.540 people who

00:39:35.020 are open

00:39:35.360 to various

00:39:35.980 specific

00:39:36.700 things

00:39:37.120 so I

00:39:38.200 have met

00:39:38.500 a lot

00:39:38.680 of people

00:39:39.080 who maybe

00:39:40.200 have

00:39:40.760 preferences

00:39:41.320 for fetishes

00:39:41.900 but they

00:39:42.540 tend to be

00:39:43.020 kind of

00:39:43.400 mild and

00:39:43.760 they tend

00:39:43.980 to be shy

00:39:44.300 about asking

00:39:44.680 for them

00:39:45.100 Aila

00:39:46.400 we've had

00:39:47.280 a feminist

00:39:48.840 on the show

00:39:49.400 called Julie

00:39:49.860 Bindle

00:39:50.260 who is a

00:39:51.140 fantastic

00:39:51.640 writer and

00:39:52.600 thinker

00:39:53.040 we both

00:39:53.740 love Julie

00:39:54.180 and both

00:39:54.540 big fans

00:39:55.080 she has

00:39:55.820 campaigned

00:39:56.500 for a long

00:39:57.160 time to

00:39:58.100 make prostitution

00:39:59.460 illegal and

00:40:00.680 to criminalize

00:40:01.940 the men

00:40:02.280 who seek out

00:40:03.420 prostitutes

00:40:04.180 what's the

00:40:06.040 other side

00:40:06.480 why should

00:40:07.160 prostitution

00:40:07.980 and escorting

00:40:09.040 why should

00:40:09.540 it be

00:40:09.800 legal

00:40:10.140 if you

00:40:11.740 talk to

00:40:12.080 any active

00:40:12.840 escort

00:40:13.360 almost all

00:40:14.620 of them

00:40:14.960 will say

00:40:15.680 that they

00:40:16.020 would disagree

00:40:17.340 with making

00:40:17.980 it illegal

00:40:18.380 so like

00:40:19.640 usually when

00:40:20.020 people advocate

00:40:20.580 that I'm like

00:40:21.100 sounds like

00:40:21.740 you have

00:40:22.100 either not

00:40:22.840 talked to

00:40:23.260 escorts

00:40:23.600 or you

00:40:23.940 have talked

00:40:24.220 to like

00:40:24.480 a small

00:40:24.900 percentage

00:40:25.280 that left

00:40:26.000 it and

00:40:26.280 had a bad

00:40:26.700 time

00:40:27.020 but there's

00:40:28.200 a whole

00:40:28.440 bunch

00:40:28.780 that this

00:40:30.000 is your

00:40:30.520 life's

00:40:30.820 work

00:40:31.060 and if

00:40:32.560 you talk

00:40:33.100 to us

00:40:33.520 you would

00:40:33.980 find out

00:40:34.320 that man

00:40:34.680 I would

00:40:35.040 like to

00:40:35.620 see men

00:40:37.120 and then

00:40:37.440 not get

00:40:37.760 punished

00:40:38.060 for it

00:40:38.520 and I

00:40:39.080 would like

00:40:39.280 to see

00:40:39.540 men and

00:40:39.800 not have

00:40:40.080 them get

00:40:40.420 punished

00:40:40.700 for it

00:40:41.080 the Nordic

00:40:42.160 model is

00:40:42.460 also pretty

00:40:42.980 bad

00:40:43.320 like the

00:40:44.100 incentive

00:40:44.560 structure

00:40:44.880 is like

00:40:46.100 one of the

00:40:48.320 ways that you

00:40:48.680 get treated

00:40:49.080 better as an

00:40:49.880 escort is if

00:40:50.400 you're able to

00:40:50.840 charge more

00:40:51.400 and basically

00:40:51.720 have more

00:40:51.980 bargaining

00:40:52.260 power

00:40:52.660 if you

00:40:53.760 increase

00:40:54.080 supply

00:40:54.540 and reduce

00:40:55.060 demand

00:40:55.480 this makes

00:40:56.500 it so that

00:40:56.920 the supply

00:40:57.280 side has less

00:40:57.940 bargaining

00:40:58.780 which means

00:41:00.280 that you're

00:41:00.500 more likely

00:41:00.880 to take

00:41:01.300 safety risks

00:41:02.760 and charge

00:41:04.060 less money

00:41:04.700 and in my

00:41:06.220 data

00:41:06.560 charging less

00:41:08.140 money is

00:41:08.660 correlated with

00:41:09.240 higher rates

00:41:09.760 of being

00:41:10.740 offended against

00:41:11.500 or having

00:41:11.980 bad things

00:41:12.400 happen to

00:41:12.800 you like

00:41:13.140 being assaulted

00:41:13.600 so if you

00:41:15.480 are making

00:41:16.660 it illegal

00:41:17.060 for the

00:41:17.980 men but

00:41:18.460 not the

00:41:18.760 women you're

00:41:19.160 going to

00:41:19.380 have a higher

00:41:19.780 supply of

00:41:20.180 women and

00:41:20.560 fewer men

00:41:21.020 which just

00:41:21.980 basically makes

00:41:22.800 the power

00:41:23.100 imbalance pretty

00:41:23.600 bad and

00:41:24.700 makes it way

00:41:25.500 more prone to

00:41:26.280 having bad

00:41:26.800 things happen

00:41:27.260 but yeah I

00:41:28.380 basically all

00:41:29.340 I'm not asking

00:41:29.900 for much

00:41:30.260 I would just

00:41:30.740 like to go

00:41:31.200 to the

00:41:31.500 police when

00:41:31.980 someone assaults

00:41:32.500 me and

00:41:33.340 not have

00:41:33.640 them arrest

00:41:33.980 me because

00:41:34.800 I accepted

00:41:35.240 money for

00:41:36.040 something that

00:41:36.460 a lot of

00:41:36.660 other people

00:41:36.940 do for free

00:41:37.440 right and

00:41:39.120 I do find

00:41:41.820 it upsetting

00:41:42.480 Ayla I'm

00:41:43.020 going to be

00:41:43.320 honest with

00:41:43.760 you that you

00:41:44.340 talk about

00:41:45.000 being assaulted

00:41:45.760 in such a

00:41:46.500 casual manner

00:41:47.260 you know

00:41:48.520 it's I

00:41:49.380 that's just a

00:41:50.900 natural human

00:41:51.480 response for me

00:41:52.200 I'm just being

00:41:52.700 honest with you

00:41:53.400 it's really

00:41:54.480 not great

00:41:54.980 I agree

00:41:55.420 it's unpleasant

00:41:56.540 I would rather

00:41:57.540 have been

00:41:57.780 assaulted than

00:41:58.260 worked at the

00:41:58.640 factory to be

00:41:59.520 clear like

00:42:00.500 but but also

00:42:02.200 like the fact

00:42:02.920 that I was

00:42:03.300 assaulted could

00:42:03.940 have been

00:42:04.220 prevented if

00:42:05.100 it were not

00:42:06.460 illegal if

00:42:07.340 prostitution was

00:42:08.320 criminalized the

00:42:09.340 thing that got

00:42:09.740 me into that

00:42:10.240 place because

00:42:11.300 what happened

00:42:11.900 is like if

00:42:12.760 you can vet

00:42:13.560 men properly

00:42:14.760 beforehand if

00:42:15.980 you're able to

00:42:16.600 have like more

00:42:17.460 resources poured

00:42:18.280 into excellent

00:42:19.160 blacklists for

00:42:19.980 women to share

00:42:20.940 which right

00:42:21.640 now that you

00:42:22.660 have to operate

00:42:23.180 in the shadows

00:42:23.860 because this is

00:42:24.600 aiding prostitution

00:42:25.880 so like if

00:42:26.920 you if you

00:42:27.840 decriminalize

00:42:28.960 prostitution and

00:42:29.740 then women will

00:42:30.220 have the tools to

00:42:30.840 make themselves

00:42:31.240 safer and it

00:42:32.160 will dramatically

00:42:32.720 decrease the

00:42:33.580 risk of assault

00:42:34.260 and is there

00:42:35.120 any particular

00:42:35.620 country that you

00:42:36.500 know gets it

00:42:37.220 right as far as

00:42:38.180 you're concerned

00:42:38.760 or does but is

00:42:40.680 is better to the

00:42:41.680 model that you

00:42:42.360 would like to see

00:42:43.420 I don't know I

00:42:44.040 haven't talked to

00:42:44.620 enough sex workers

00:42:45.280 from those countries

00:42:46.120 yeah which is the

00:42:47.020 way that I would

00:42:47.400 determine I would

00:42:47.920 go to the sex

00:42:48.440 workers and be like

00:42:49.160 how safe do you

00:42:50.240 feel

00:42:50.940 how much do

00:42:51.760 you feel like

00:42:52.080 you're getting

00:42:52.440 like your money

00:42:53.380 taken away from

00:42:53.980 you by like

00:42:54.560 coercive brothels

00:42:55.860 for example

00:42:56.340 okay so I

00:42:57.180 don't know

00:42:57.500 do you have a

00:42:59.440 website or do

00:43:00.400 you plan to have

00:43:01.260 a website because

00:43:02.420 if you do then

00:43:03.720 easy DNS is a

00:43:05.320 company for you

00:43:06.300 easy DNS is the

00:43:07.800 perfect domain name

00:43:08.920 registrar provider and

00:43:10.160 web host for you

00:43:11.040 they have a track

00:43:12.220 record of standing

00:43:13.140 up for their

00:43:13.660 clients whether it

00:43:14.440 be cancel culture

00:43:15.480 de-platform attacks

00:43:17.080 or overzealous

00:43:18.540 government agencies

00:43:19.740 he knows about

00:43:21.180 that so will you

00:43:22.400 in a second

00:43:23.000 easy DNS have

00:43:24.520 rock-solid network

00:43:25.640 infrastructure and

00:43:26.600 fantastic customer

00:43:27.720 support they're in

00:43:29.000 your corner no

00:43:30.180 matter what the

00:43:31.020 world throws at

00:43:31.840 you unless it's

00:43:32.940 your ex-girlfriend in

00:43:34.140 which case you're on

00:43:35.260 your own you know

00:43:36.060 about that move

00:43:37.620 your domains and

00:43:38.460 websites over to

00:43:39.500 easy DNS right now

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00:43:58.720 technology privacy and

00:44:00.780 censorship we've

00:44:02.880 talked about escorting

00:44:04.040 we've talked about

00:44:04.900 only fans I mean we

00:44:06.280 kind of haven't talked

00:44:07.660 about the porn the

00:44:08.500 porn industry which is

00:44:09.700 making the movies etc

00:44:11.160 did that side of it

00:44:12.540 ever appeal to you and

00:44:13.560 if not why not it

00:44:14.880 didn't because you make

00:44:15.680 a lot less money okay

00:44:17.420 for a lot less control

00:44:18.360 I think like the

00:44:19.640 advent of like to

00:44:20.800 some degree camming

00:44:21.620 but especially only

00:44:22.500 fans has just ripped

00:44:23.260 the power away from

00:44:24.300 from the like the

00:44:25.800 centralized industries

00:44:26.640 which I think is kind

00:44:27.380 of good it's like the

00:44:28.360 new media of porn right

00:44:29.800 it's like YouTube taking

00:44:31.240 over the TV that that

00:44:33.840 makes a lot of sense

00:44:34.920 I suppose you know I'm

00:44:38.460 just curious asking all

00:44:39.420 these questions from a

00:44:40.260 normal perspective because

00:44:41.180 I think a lot of people

00:44:42.020 watching will have them

00:44:43.040 the thing that I think a

00:44:46.040 lot of people would say

00:44:47.060 is that sex is I mean

00:44:50.820 sacred makes me sound

00:44:52.400 like a religious nut but

00:44:53.440 that's how a lot of

00:44:54.460 people will feel about

00:44:55.420 it whether they're

00:44:56.320 religious or not they a

00:44:58.700 lot of people feel that

00:44:59.700 sex has a meaning beyond

00:45:01.180 the physical act and

00:45:02.700 Louise Perry who as I

00:45:04.220 say you've debated

00:45:04.900 before she gives us

00:45:06.260 example of if we just

00:45:07.780 treated sex like any

00:45:08.820 other service there would

00:45:10.040 be absolutely no reason

00:45:11.400 why it would be offensive

00:45:12.460 for your boss whose

00:45:14.120 secretary you are to

00:45:15.640 say well if you give

00:45:16.340 me a blowjob I'll give

00:45:17.420 you a raise right

00:45:18.760 because it's just like

00:45:19.880 giving a massage like

00:45:21.360 you said like why

00:45:22.560 wouldn't do you see

00:45:23.680 what I'm saying do we

00:45:24.540 consider it offensive to

00:45:25.580 be like if you give me

00:45:26.320 a massage I'll give you

00:45:27.180 a raise only because

00:45:29.240 there's a sexual

00:45:29.960 dimension to it if I

00:45:31.600 said to my secretary if

00:45:33.600 you make my coffee on

00:45:35.680 time every week and

00:45:37.240 it's exactly the way

00:45:38.180 that I want to I'll

00:45:39.100 give you a raise I

00:45:40.820 mean I'm Jewish so I

00:45:41.680 wouldn't do that

00:45:42.200 like if you're like if

00:45:43.020 you wash my car I'll

00:45:44.120 give you a raise like

00:45:45.140 that starts to feel a

00:45:46.040 little bit weirder and

00:45:46.920 exploitative because it's

00:45:48.540 outside the job

00:45:49.180 description like I don't

00:45:51.540 think we're okay if I

00:45:52.340 have a PA and I say to

00:45:54.520 him or her in our case

00:45:56.380 it's him can you go and

00:45:57.880 take my car to the car

00:45:59.000 wash you could argue

00:46:01.780 that's within the job

00:46:02.480 description let's pick

00:46:03.420 something that is

00:46:03.920 clearly not within the

00:46:04.860 job description like can

00:46:06.000 you watch my kids like

00:46:07.520 yeah in the same way

00:46:08.420 about my job

00:46:08.900 watch my kids right

00:46:10.480 that would feel a little

00:46:11.040 weird as weird as having

00:46:12.960 giving someone a blowjob

00:46:14.060 uh well I think it's just

00:46:15.820 like the the sense of

00:46:16.860 exploitation that we have

00:46:17.880 like oh I have power over

00:46:18.780 you and I will dangle

00:46:19.640 money if you do something

00:46:21.040 like personal for me okay

00:46:22.700 yeah but what I'm saying

00:46:24.100 is something else which

00:46:25.160 is if I was to say to my

00:46:27.400 PA watch my kids for an

00:46:31.220 hour and you get a raise

00:46:32.580 I don't think that in

00:46:34.740 society and under the law

00:46:37.220 in all sorts of other

00:46:38.360 important ways that would

00:46:40.000 be treated anything like

00:46:41.620 me offering my secretary

00:46:43.360 a raise for a blowjob

00:46:44.420 yeah I agree so I think

00:46:45.640 there's two things going

00:46:46.740 on that I think this

00:46:47.500 analogy is conflating and

00:46:48.960 one is like like

00:46:49.940 exploitation of power and

00:46:52.240 but the other is like it

00:46:53.420 is clear that like a lot

00:46:54.300 of people have a lot of

00:46:55.160 loaded feelings around

00:46:56.260 blowjobs if you were like

00:46:57.740 hey I have a job

00:46:59.120 description in which I

00:46:59.880 want you to assist me and

00:47:01.160 also part of the job is

00:47:02.420 give me blowjobs and

00:47:03.660 somebody signed up for

00:47:04.460 that people might be

00:47:06.000 horrified but I think

00:47:06.760 that we should allow

00:47:07.320 this as a society like

00:47:08.980 two consenting adults

00:47:10.080 deciding that they are

00:47:11.640 want to voluntarily

00:47:12.400 enter this agreement

00:47:13.000 let's get the job

00:47:15.960 advert out right now I

00:47:17.360 just realized I rubbed

00:47:18.280 my hands that looks

00:47:19.060 dreadful that looks

00:47:20.340 dreadful and we

00:47:21.140 probably need to cut it

00:47:22.460 this has not been my

00:47:23.460 final this is going in

00:47:24.620 this is going in the one

00:47:28.220 thing that we're not

00:47:29.040 acknowledging here and I

00:47:30.400 think we need to is

00:47:31.920 there's a fly on your

00:47:32.800 head yeah there's a fly

00:47:33.740 this looks like an

00:47:34.740 episode filmed in Africa

00:47:35.840 yeah yeah exactly I

00:47:37.460 don't know what's

00:47:37.900 happened with the flies

00:47:38.680 anyway anyway so the

00:47:40.440 question that I want to

00:47:41.480 ask is this why I am

00:47:43.220 literally surrounded by

00:47:44.540 flies I've got one and

00:47:45.900 I've killed one we can

00:47:46.640 cut that you're Barack

00:47:48.020 Obama do you remember

00:47:48.620 when he killed the fly

00:47:49.420 really yeah everyone

00:47:50.420 thought he was a real

00:47:51.020 man yeah there you go

00:47:52.660 they did he killed the

00:47:54.220 fly and was like get

00:47:55.120 that show on camera

00:47:56.060 yeah show that I am a

00:47:57.440 man in charge of my own

00:47:58.460 destiny I can kill an

00:47:59.340 insect obviously all the

00:48:00.460 Buddhists have switched

00:48:01.500 off now but what we're

00:48:03.940 not acknowledging here

00:48:04.940 Ayla is the power

00:48:05.760 dynamic

00:48:06.300 yes she did acknowledge

00:48:08.640 it

00:48:08.860 but but I don't think

00:48:10.660 that we we really

00:48:12.360 delved into it do you

00:48:13.880 see what I mean like

00:48:14.780 there is a very very

00:48:16.060 real power dynamic and

00:48:17.580 we've seen it again and

00:48:18.640 again and we use the

00:48:20.040 example of PAs but

00:48:21.140 there's other industries

00:48:22.420 particularly the

00:48:23.500 performing arts

00:48:24.260 industries for instance

00:48:25.420 where this has been in

00:48:27.320 existence for decades it's

00:48:30.060 not centuries and it's

00:48:31.720 deeply exploitative

00:48:32.760 uh yeah I generally

00:48:35.300 don't like I find the

00:48:36.580 word exploitative to be

00:48:37.680 like a little bit

00:48:38.240 confused and loaded but

00:48:39.340 I agree that like sex is

00:48:41.560 a very loaded thing that

00:48:42.680 a lot of men want and a

00:48:43.640 lot of women are like

00:48:44.260 grr don't have it with

00:48:45.440 me um and so if you

00:48:46.920 introduce this thing with

00:48:47.640 like really intense

00:48:48.500 incentives into any

00:48:50.100 thing it's going to like

00:48:51.860 warp things around it

00:48:53.500 people are going to be

00:48:54.240 like oh maybe if I have

00:48:56.100 sex with my boss he'll

00:48:56.920 give me a raise or you

00:48:58.080 know the boss will be

00:48:58.760 like oh maybe she'll

00:49:00.220 have sex with me to get

00:49:01.400 a raise I agree that

00:49:02.420 this is like a thing

00:49:03.580 that warps incentives

00:49:04.440 okay listen I've got a

00:49:06.220 way of adding to the

00:49:07.920 example we were working

00:49:08.820 with earlier that might

00:49:09.980 be helpful let's say I

00:49:11.620 go to my secretary and I

00:49:13.880 say to her your job

00:49:14.780 description currently is

00:49:16.660 to make coffee to run my

00:49:18.040 diary to book

00:49:18.800 appointments blah blah

00:49:19.760 blah blah however you

00:49:22.420 currently get paid let's

00:49:23.920 say fifty thousand uh

00:49:25.280 fifty thousand dollars a

00:49:26.160 year let's say right I'm

00:49:27.920 going to double your

00:49:28.680 salary if we modify your

00:49:30.260 job description to

00:49:31.260 include the following sex

00:49:32.320 acts you think that's a

00:49:34.200 perfectly reasonable thing

00:49:35.500 of of an employer to

00:49:37.100 offer an employee uh I

00:49:39.520 see I think it should be

00:49:41.340 allowed yeah like because

00:49:44.240 she can say no right she

00:49:46.500 can but I imagine most

00:49:49.560 people's reaction to that

00:49:50.960 sort of proposal would be

00:49:52.180 one of intense horror oh I

00:49:57.060 don't have that horror

00:49:57.860 reaction I can tell yeah

00:49:59.820 yeah that that's really

00:50:02.080 interesting that you don't

00:50:03.480 have that reaction because

00:50:04.700 also as well the woman

00:50:07.060 tends to sex for a woman is

00:50:10.740 far more fraught than sex for

00:50:13.460 a man you take you can lose

00:50:16.040 a lot more you have more risk

00:50:17.460 of great of uh catching an

00:50:21.020 STD you know there's a

00:50:22.760 potential for pregnancy etc etc

00:50:24.780 etc there's a reputational

00:50:26.500 damage as well so you would

00:50:30.900 say take away the

00:50:31.720 reputational damage I'm

00:50:32.780 guessing right I would say

00:50:34.680 what take away for most

00:50:36.200 people there is reputational

00:50:37.180 damage yeah yes I agree

00:50:38.400 because you know if somebody

00:50:40.160 does that and you know it's

00:50:42.160 you know and you your

00:50:43.160 argument is look these are

00:50:44.180 two consenting adults and

00:50:45.700 they come to this agreement

00:50:46.760 who are we to make a

00:50:48.700 comment well we all know

00:50:50.040 that society and by society I

00:50:51.600 mean women don't really see

00:50:53.300 it like that because there

00:50:54.620 will be a lot of women who

00:50:55.720 will actually yeah a lot of

00:50:58.560 men as well who will just

00:51:00.060 say look this is disgusting

00:51:01.980 and I know how boring this

00:51:03.580 person is a you know and

00:51:05.400 they will say all these

00:51:06.300 awful things yeah that's

00:51:08.120 true there's a lot of it's

00:51:09.340 very intense stigma against

00:51:10.500 sex work but I think it's

00:51:12.580 interesting so for example

00:51:13.480 seeking arrangement is this

00:51:14.920 are you familiar with this

00:51:15.880 website it's a website where

00:51:17.720 it's not escorting it's not

00:51:19.000 quite dating it's like you

00:51:19.880 can be a sugar daddy and

00:51:21.040 like so typically for

00:51:22.680 wealthy or men to find

00:51:23.880 poor women and then you

00:51:24.820 take them out to dinner and

00:51:25.600 you buy them gifts in

00:51:26.340 exchange for an arrangement

00:51:27.200 typically involving sex and

00:51:29.320 this is not prostitution

00:51:31.480 because it's like dating

00:51:33.440 this happens all the time

00:51:34.640 that doesn't wash for me

00:51:37.340 but like normal dating a lot

00:51:39.260 of normal dating culture

00:51:40.160 abides by these rules

00:51:41.180 unspoken like girls want a

00:51:43.360 rich man rich rich man

00:51:45.940 fantasies are like

00:51:47.140 everywhere the Fifty Shades

00:51:48.380 of Grey is a billionaire

00:51:49.240 like Twilight he's a

00:51:51.460 super like wealthy old

00:51:53.140 person or something

00:51:54.400 but I'm saying that like

00:51:56.260 in general the ancient

00:51:57.580 exchange is like a man

00:51:59.000 provides financial

00:51:59.640 stability for a woman and

00:52:00.880 she provides him a child

00:52:01.840 or by proxy sex yeah

00:52:04.500 and I'm saying to some

00:52:05.620 extent this is always

00:52:06.280 taking place and the more

00:52:07.360 you obfuscate it the more

00:52:08.800 you're saying oh I'm not

00:52:09.680 exchanging sex for money

00:52:10.660 I'm exchanging money for

00:52:12.300 some other things like

00:52:14.400 financial support it's very

00:52:16.380 trad I'm saying very

00:52:17.360 trad things this is not

00:52:18.440 crazy then people are

00:52:20.440 much more willing to

00:52:21.140 abide by it and what's

00:52:22.200 interesting is that the

00:52:22.960 seeking arrangement prices

00:52:24.000 are much lower than the

00:52:25.420 escort prices like if

00:52:26.840 you're a seeking

00:52:27.280 arrangement girl you can

00:52:28.160 charge maybe 50 percent

00:52:29.280 if if you were being an

00:52:30.740 escort and this I think

00:52:32.840 we can see is the premium

00:52:33.860 on explicitness so if

00:52:36.620 you're a girl doing this

00:52:37.720 thing normally but you

00:52:39.480 say explicitly I'm going

00:52:41.780 to just have sex you get

00:52:42.960 to charge a lot more

00:52:43.760 because fewer women are

00:52:44.720 willing to do that so I

00:52:46.960 think like the question

00:52:47.740 is not are women willing

00:52:49.580 to exchange sex for value

00:52:51.020 but rather the horror is

00:52:52.840 at explicitly saying that

00:52:54.760 they're doing that yeah

00:52:55.900 yes yes yeah that is a

00:52:57.720 very trad thing to say in

00:52:59.200 many ways and many a

00:53:00.260 comedian has done a bit on

00:53:02.020 this obviously but moving

00:53:03.800 on I'm curious you also do a

00:53:05.520 lot of research with the

00:53:06.460 stuff that you do and I was

00:53:08.080 curious if you had any

00:53:08.900 insight I mean 50 shades of

00:53:10.760 gray was like by far in a

00:53:13.080 way the best book the

00:53:14.840 best-selling book not the

00:53:16.000 best I'm not personally

00:53:17.000 endorsing it good Freudian

00:53:19.740 slip there we've covered

00:53:21.440 ourselves in glory on this

00:53:22.640 one in this interview we

00:53:23.800 look even worse than the

00:53:25.020 Theo von interview yeah

00:53:26.000 anyway what I was going to

00:53:29.260 say is it was immensely

00:53:31.180 popular and it feels to me

00:53:33.540 like within that there's some

00:53:35.560 kind of social taboo about

00:53:37.260 naming whatever that power

00:53:39.020 dynamic tends to be between

00:53:40.960 men and women what is your

00:53:42.800 insight into why that book

00:53:44.760 was and movie was so

00:53:45.900 popular and what sort of

00:53:46.940 is behind all of that

00:53:47.920 I mean it's just porn for

00:53:48.880 women like this is no but

00:53:51.420 we isn't the narrative is

00:53:53.460 though that evil pornography

00:53:57.320 has created the demand in

00:53:59.820 men for rough sex which is

00:54:02.340 horrific to women and this is

00:54:06.480 kind of like male exploitation

00:54:08.080 you laughed when I said that

00:54:09.580 why did you laugh it's just

00:54:10.900 like there's a lot of

00:54:11.860 things I can agree debates

00:54:12.880 about oh it's like sex work

00:54:14.220 you know bad or good for

00:54:15.260 society at large and like

00:54:16.140 this is like a reasonable

00:54:16.940 thing to inquire but like when

00:54:18.660 it comes to the porn thing

00:54:19.960 it's just one of the things

00:54:20.820 that I find to be so lacking

00:54:22.720 any evidence the evidence is

00:54:24.980 all to the opposite and

00:54:25.820 there's quite a bit of it like

00:54:27.180 my research and a lot of

00:54:28.780 established research is so

00:54:30.220 that women have way more

00:54:31.200 interest in like violent rough

00:54:32.920 power dynamics than men do

00:54:33.960 significant like it's just

00:54:35.560 clear it's like one of the

00:54:36.680 most established things which is

00:54:38.580 why I'm like I don't

00:54:39.580 understand why this narrative

00:54:40.760 is so popular so sorry to

00:54:43.360 interrupt I really want to hear

00:54:44.280 the rest of it but just to spell

00:54:45.400 it out and what you're saying

00:54:48.560 is the evidence is in your

00:54:50.180 opinion that women are more

00:54:52.680 interested in rough sex than men

00:54:56.660 very much I did one survey it

00:54:59.400 was both of my own audience and

00:55:01.060 also paid random sample of people

00:55:04.040 asking to predict what you think

00:55:05.580 the other person would like in

00:55:06.580 bed and then for men to

00:55:08.380 predict to women what do you

00:55:09.660 think the woman would like in

00:55:10.460 bed and I listed a whole bunch

00:55:11.420 of things and then I asked

00:55:12.100 women assuming that the guy is

00:55:14.600 well-intentioned like he

00:55:15.420 actually thinks you're going to

00:55:16.200 like it assuming he's safe

00:55:17.220 whatever what things would you

00:55:18.920 respond well to if he tried

00:55:20.000 them in bed and so we get to

00:55:22.200 see like a list of like what

00:55:23.460 guys think ladies like and what

00:55:24.940 girls say they actually want and

00:55:26.740 but then I I checked it by how

00:55:28.520 much porn do you want and the

00:55:29.940 more porn a man watched the more

00:55:31.360 accurate he was at guessing what

00:55:33.200 women wanted in bed and the big

00:55:35.280 difference that the biggest

00:55:36.020 difference was choking between

00:55:37.200 what women reported they wanted

00:55:38.520 to happen and what men thought

00:55:39.780 that women would be okay with

00:55:40.760 this is just like one small

00:55:42.440 study there's like a whole bunch

00:55:43.500 more and the evolutionary

00:55:45.360 rationale for this I'm guessing

00:55:47.020 would be that a lot of women

00:55:49.340 have DNA that I mean a lot of

00:55:54.260 women historically were in

00:55:55.300 situations where it was

00:55:56.280 advantageous to be turned on by

00:55:58.180 somebody who was strong and

00:56:00.900 powerful and quite often

00:56:02.980 actually a rapist right yeah

00:56:05.240 like I mean if you look at like

00:56:06.480 chimps for example their whole

00:56:08.500 sexual world is full of violence

00:56:10.540 and like aggression and mate

00:56:12.300 guarding and like the males making

00:56:13.840 sure the females aren't don't go

00:56:15.060 off alone with another man and

00:56:16.060 like threatening them so it seems

00:56:18.380 like pretty possible that we have

00:56:19.420 something like this in our own

00:56:20.500 history but there's other

00:56:22.600 questions like it's possible that

00:56:24.080 it's a falling testosterone thing

00:56:26.080 because there's some evidence to

00:56:27.680 suggest that testosterone is

00:56:28.680 correlated with sexual dominance and

00:56:30.480 if everybody's testosterone is

00:56:33.000 dropping then we would see women

00:56:33.980 more submissive and men less

00:56:35.580 interested in dominance is a

00:56:36.960 possibility there's also a thing

00:56:39.320 where as a female like maybe in

00:56:41.040 history if you reproduce with like

00:56:43.600 a very aggressive man your sons are

00:56:45.540 going to be more likely to

00:56:46.460 reproduce like you're going to give

00:56:48.240 birth to like like more like I'll

00:56:51.440 say rapey but like more like you

00:56:52.640 know dominant more like kind of

00:56:53.900 aggressive kind of males which are

00:56:55.880 going to have greater reproductive

00:56:56.760 success yeah so the history is not

00:56:59.440 always flattering but so you're doing

00:57:02.100 your sex research which is very

00:57:04.480 interesting so I mean the billion

00:57:06.800 dollar question is what is it that

00:57:08.320 women want from men on the whole

00:57:10.000 what is it that they want from a

00:57:11.420 partner what is it that they want on

00:57:13.580 average from a sexual partner I mean

00:57:15.840 it depends a lot it depends a lot on

00:57:18.160 the woman like a lot of women are

00:57:20.080 submissive but this is like roughly

00:57:21.340 60 percent and it depends on how you

00:57:22.900 define submissive there's like

00:57:24.000 different way but roughly 60 percent

00:57:26.140 so that's like barely more than half so

00:57:27.760 we have a whole 40 percent that

00:57:28.840 aren't interested in that at all

00:57:29.860 so it's like to say like one

00:57:32.260 generalization is going to be quite

00:57:34.000 hard yeah but I think generally

00:57:35.720 competence is pretty valued

00:57:37.200 competence and attentiveness and

00:57:39.660 power like if you can establish

00:57:41.060 yourself as a sexually desirable

00:57:42.340 mate like a lot of other women

00:57:44.100 want you but that basically if you

00:57:46.420 could just be a romance novel

00:57:47.640 protagonist

00:57:48.200 yeah a lot of other ladies want you

00:57:53.780 um and but you are kind of non-reactive

00:57:56.080 to women um what does that mean

00:57:58.440 non-reactive uh sort of like you in the

00:58:02.340 same way that like being an

00:58:03.560 attractive woman is being very

00:58:05.180 reactive to the man like he wants to

00:58:06.740 to know that he has like the ability to

00:58:08.820 like change your mental state and like

00:58:10.780 positive and negative ways yeah like you

00:58:13.560 tease you and you're like have a strong

00:58:15.280 response yeah um and this indicates

00:58:17.560 like vulnerability and I don't know

00:58:19.080 like pliableness but like what women

00:58:21.020 want is basically the reverse you want

00:58:22.700 like a man who is not like super

00:58:25.120 reactive to you he wants to be like

00:58:27.400 steady and strong and sort of stoic in

00:58:30.020 a way would be very common really and

00:58:33.260 normally women always say sense of

00:58:35.040 humor is that a thing or is that just

00:58:36.900 a myth I know that's a thing really

00:58:39.420 just demonstrating like competence and

00:58:41.200 intelligence yeah but the thing I would

00:58:43.620 suggest with humor is humor frequently

00:58:46.660 is a coping mechanism it's a coping

00:58:49.020 mechanism it's normally you look at

00:58:51.340 every stand-up comedian I've ever met

00:58:53.320 they're all adhd'd out of their brain

00:58:55.320 including me so I like how does that

00:58:58.220 work you know are you are you do you

00:59:00.680 use it as a coping mechanism yeah

00:59:02.440 absolutely I see yeah I wonder if

00:59:04.420 there's a difference between comedians

00:59:05.640 and normal people though who are just

00:59:07.160 funny yeah there is yeah comedians are

00:59:10.100 fucking mental yeah that's the difference

00:59:11.620 dude I know one of the like most

00:59:13.000 emotionally traumatized clients I ever

00:59:14.340 have is a comedian

00:59:14.980 I'm pausing for an extra time waiting

00:59:18.960 for you to say his name but I didn't

00:59:21.140 expect it to come

00:59:22.060 yeah that's interesting okay so that

00:59:26.360 would get a lot more clicks though

00:59:27.540 yeah

00:59:27.820 we're gonna we're gonna do a little poll

00:59:32.420 to see who we think it is yeah um but

00:59:35.180 so

00:59:35.960 so let's look at it on in terms of a

00:59:39.840 kind of almost like a league table as

00:59:41.780 it were and some unscientific as that

00:59:44.260 term is so what is the thing that

00:59:46.000 women desire the most on average is it

00:59:48.140 the stoicness is it the bend

00:59:49.920 dependability is it the competence is

00:59:52.460 it

00:59:52.720 this is like asking like what is the

00:59:56.580 most central feature to being a woman

00:59:58.800 yeah it's like well we can name some

01:00:01.160 things but like yeah uh it's a really

01:00:03.520 fraught topic yeah uh I think like

01:00:06.200 generally power is pretty close and

01:00:09.020 that can manifest in a lot of

01:00:10.160 different ways but yeah yeah that makes

01:00:13.220 a lot of sense and for for very good

01:00:14.940 evolutionary reasons

01:00:15.660 in terms of your research what I'd love

01:00:18.180 to know is what do you think uh some

01:00:20.960 of the most misunderstood and also just

01:00:23.580 like we don't talk about the truth about

01:00:26.360 sex dynamics men and women like what

01:00:28.920 are the things that people pretend that

01:00:31.820 are true that are not true pretend

01:00:33.820 aren't true that are true do you just

01:00:35.540 what I'm getting in set oh uh probably

01:00:37.720 the origin of fetishes oh tell us about

01:00:39.980 that well so well fetishes in general

01:00:42.240 like we don't have good research at all

01:00:43.980 about how sexuality works I mean we know

01:00:46.080 a couple of clues here and there like

01:00:47.420 maybe hormones cause being gay or

01:00:49.020 something but beyond that we just don't

01:00:50.680 have a clue and the contrast of how much

01:00:53.160 we know versus the amount of very

01:00:55.160 intense cultural uh supposed knowledge

01:00:57.620 like you'll have people very confidently

01:00:59.280 making claims about uh like oh well you

01:01:02.480 know you're into like sexual like rape

01:01:05.260 play because you're abused as a child

01:01:06.600 which technically is correct but you

01:01:08.180 don't know that um there's just a lot

01:01:11.240 of like oh you know you're into foot

01:01:13.160 fetishes because you're exposed to feet

01:01:15.080 as a kid um weren't we all exactly

01:01:18.580 exposed to feet I mean I saw quite a lot

01:01:21.600 of feet I don't have a foot fetish

01:01:23.100 but also as well what is a fetish because

01:01:26.840 in this incredibly polarized time you know

01:01:30.720 if a guy for instance likes and is sex

01:01:33.380 more sexually attracted to I don't know

01:01:35.420 Asian women that is seen as a fetish or

01:01:37.600 is that a sexual preference yeah I don't

01:01:40.020 think like these words are like we can

01:01:41.880 use words to refer to things but there's

01:01:44.060 no hard line and I think in general like

01:01:46.680 when people are like researching fetishes

01:01:49.360 and paraphilias I don't think those

01:01:50.680 terminologies are very useful all we have

01:01:52.680 is just sexual interests and some are more

01:01:54.240 common than others we have a spectrum

01:01:55.620 and we have a spectrum of like how taboo

01:01:58.020 are is your sexual interest and we can

01:02:00.040 like use a word to refer to like well

01:02:01.400 kind of the fetishes at this far end are

01:02:03.540 maybe more fetishy or something I saw a

01:02:05.960 great meme about that which is like it's

01:02:08.280 three normal boxes like guys who like

01:02:10.340 boobs guy who likes butts guy who likes

01:02:12.260 something else and then feet and there's

01:02:13.640 like this guy fucking brilliant yeah so

01:02:17.500 how how do fetishes develop you were

01:02:20.080 saying earlier we don't know uh don't

01:02:22.400 know my this is one of the things I'm

01:02:24.960 trying to find in my research and it's

01:02:26.640 like a weird amount of stuff doesn't

01:02:28.560 correlate that you would think do

01:02:30.080 correlate like for example being spanked

01:02:31.860 in childhood does correlate with

01:02:33.080 interest in spanking in adulthood but

01:02:34.440 only barely like it wouldn't really

01:02:36.660 you wouldn't be able to predict it

01:02:37.740 very much and this is like really

01:02:39.940 counter to a lot of narratives about

01:02:41.660 how like spanking fetishes develop for

01:02:43.420 example it's it's really weird yeah

01:02:46.380 although they're one of the strange I

01:02:48.740 need to look at that I have a lot of

01:02:50.100 data that I'm like slowly working

01:02:51.360 through so I've kind of done some

01:02:53.160 glancing so let's take it with a grain

01:02:54.780 of salt but it seems that there's

01:02:56.720 unusual relationship in childhood and

01:02:58.820 fetishes for trans men specifically

01:03:00.600 but not trans women or uh straight or

01:03:04.160 cis people like as in things in

01:03:06.720 childhood correlate a lot more with

01:03:07.860 fetishes in adulthood but only for that

01:03:09.760 category that's really interesting and

01:03:11.540 why is it that a foot fetish is a

01:03:14.760 pretty mainstream thing yet it has such

01:03:17.380 a strong like if I knew someone had a

01:03:20.020 foot fetish I'll be honest with you I'd

01:03:21.640 be I'd think they're a little bit weird

01:03:23.380 do you know what I mean yeah you know

01:03:25.080 foot fetishes are actually relatively

01:03:26.600 uncommon given how aware we are of them

01:03:29.260 yeah yeah it's but it's they've got

01:03:32.020 great PIs yeah it's like you know

01:03:34.320 there's a and we don't know this is a

01:03:36.620 rumor you know Tarantino has a foot

01:03:38.520 fetish and then you look at every single

01:03:40.640 one of his movies and and then there is

01:03:43.460 like you know there's the toe sucking or

01:03:45.180 whatever it may be in his movies and you

01:03:47.780 go I kind of and maybe this is me being

01:03:51.960 prim and proper like there's a slight

01:03:53.780 judgmental air to it do you know what I

01:03:55.520 mean do you feel the same about like

01:03:58.480 gay people for example which no no but I

01:04:01.200 just think foot fetishes what about like

01:04:02.880 fuzzy handcuffs sorry fuzzy handcuffs like

01:04:05.700 somebody's like I really want to be in

01:04:06.700 fuzzy handcuffs no okay I'm just like

01:04:09.220 trying to find like where the line is

01:04:10.560 what about keep going somebody wants to

01:04:12.520 pee on on you sorry fucking weird okay

01:04:15.500 that's weird yeah what else are he's

01:04:19.060 really into like braids they really

01:04:21.360 braids if a girl puts her hair in

01:04:22.960 braids they're just like that's really

01:04:24.600 hot

01:04:24.940 is that a sex fetish that's just a

01:04:29.060 hairstyle anything is a fetish well look

01:04:31.260 I kind of get like if you're having

01:04:33.120 sex and you pull the braids do you

01:04:35.460 know what I mean like did you see you

01:04:38.800 can pull look this is this conversation

01:04:40.980 is going the wrong way fast because I

01:04:43.060 was about to say you can pull hair too

01:04:44.480 anyway no braids is not weird no peeing

01:04:48.580 weird feet weird okay feet feet weird

01:04:52.040 it's just weird and like you ask me and

01:04:55.220 like you go right let's look at this

01:04:57.100 logically right do you like boobs yes

01:04:59.040 do you like bums yes so what's the

01:05:01.200 difference there is nothing there is no

01:05:03.520 difference between like bums and feet

01:05:04.860 but well it's just a part of the human

01:05:07.280 body you're attracted to a part of the

01:05:09.640 human body some people are attracted to

01:05:11.420 that part of the human body so is the

01:05:12.760 toenail yeah doesn't mean toenail

01:05:14.660 fetishes are normal it's fucking weird

01:05:16.500 and by weird you mean abnormal yeah

01:05:20.360 yeah yeah but like most fetishes are

01:05:22.880 pretty abnormal

01:05:23.460 yeah and it's just like I don't think I'd

01:05:25.860 trust someone if they had a foot face no

01:05:27.500 you should be able to ask that on an employee

01:05:31.500 survey you probably know a lot of friends

01:05:32.100 who have a foot fetish say again you

01:05:33.760 probably know many people many of your

01:05:35.140 friends probably have a foot fetish but

01:05:36.300 have not told you well if you are you're

01:05:38.360 no longer our friend yeah unsubscribed

01:05:40.540 imagine we come back to the channel

01:05:43.760 say halved turns out we just attracted a

01:05:47.720 legion of foot fetishes well it's been a

01:05:51.180 lot of fun thank you for letting us sort

01:05:53.340 of prod and find stuff out it's been

01:05:55.080 really really cool to chat with you I

01:05:57.040 feel like my virginity has grown back at

01:05:58.740 time so thank you for that yeah no but

01:06:01.220 it's been really fun with the question

01:06:03.500 we last question we always ask is what's

01:06:05.860 before we go to our locals where we ask

01:06:07.760 you questions from our audience and if

01:06:09.140 there's any foot fetish people you're

01:06:10.600 getting deleted unless you're a top

01:06:13.520 level patron in which case welcome yeah

01:06:15.500 exactly we'll be posting photos of your

01:06:17.720 feet for your patrons we should do that

01:06:20.400 shouldn't we do you know you know what

01:06:21.880 imagine we could make way more money

01:06:23.660 than we do now just selling pictures of

01:06:25.420 our feet I mean we're not women so it

01:06:27.540 wouldn't happen no I mean imagine that

01:06:29.440 imagine if like Rogan contacted us like

01:06:31.720 next year's like hey lads you want to

01:06:33.000 come back on the pod turns out mate

01:06:34.740 we're making way more money selling

01:06:36.180 pictures of feet feet anometry yeah

01:06:39.160 anyway Ayla before we go to locals

01:06:41.360 where we'll ask you questions from our

01:06:42.680 audience the last question we always

01:06:44.620 finish with is an opportunity for you to

01:06:46.700 basically say whatever you think which

01:06:47.940 is what's the one thing that we're not

01:06:49.580 talking about as a society that you

01:06:51.300 think we really should be I'm trying to

01:06:54.080 think of what we already covered maybe

01:06:56.460 like a modification on some things I've

01:06:58.080 said for my perspective having been in

01:07:01.740 sex work for 10 years in the last I would

01:07:03.960 say two to four years there's been a

01:07:08.120 change on the internet like a prudish

01:07:10.020 chilling effect there's been a

01:07:13.320 backlash basically against sexuality

01:07:14.960 that's starting to shut down what is

01:07:16.600 allowed to be posted where that I find

01:07:19.100 to be quite tragic as a lover of

01:07:21.080 sexuality and this is I haven't seen

01:07:23.420 people talking about this like the

01:07:25.320 new child more than because what are

01:07:26.900 you talking about specifically I just

01:07:29.200 like you the things that are allowed on

01:07:32.120 the internet just aren't anymore like

01:07:33.820 on OnlyFans you can't do bondage

01:07:36.160 material used to be able to like they've

01:07:39.200 taken down a whole bunch of fetish

01:07:40.640 options from websites a whole bunch of

01:07:43.440 sex subreddits got banned from reddit

01:07:45.120 like a couple years ago anything that's

01:07:47.340 like abnormal the sex subreddits by the

01:07:49.300 way the niche ones got also banned with

01:07:50.960 like a lot of things dedicated to trans

01:07:53.280 discourse on both sides so whatever

01:07:56.060 sort of prudish effect is coming is

01:07:58.940 stealing like oh anything that's like

01:08:00.360 too edgy or too inappropriate might make

01:08:02.960 people feel offended these are just

01:08:05.320 getting whitewashed off the internet

01:08:06.680 like DuckDuckGo for example used to be

01:08:08.940 the go-to porn engine it's supposed to

01:08:10.460 be the uncensored one you can't search

01:08:11.780 porn on there anymore it's non-porn so

01:08:15.600 basically like sexuality especially niche

01:08:18.080 sexuality and especially like edgy ones

01:08:20.040 that most people like are a little

01:08:21.500 offended by are like slowly getting

01:08:25.060 censored off of everywhere and nobody

01:08:27.640 cares because it's porn like with like

01:08:29.780 trans discourse people fight about it and

01:08:31.780 then we have a whole culture war but

01:08:33.700 nobody's willing to stand up publicly

01:08:35.340 for like the weird niche sex stuff and

01:08:37.500 I find that really tragic actually I was

01:08:39.000 gonna ask you about trans but we'll ask

01:08:40.420 you about that in the local section so

01:08:42.640 thank you so much for coming on head on

01:08:44.500 over to locals where we continue the

01:08:45.860 conversation what do you make of the

01:08:49.200 whole trans conversation

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TRIGGERnometry - October 25, 2023

Aella - Why I Became An Escort

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