TRIGGERnometry - An Honest Conversation About Race with John Barnes

00:00:00.000 I'd love a day for a black man and a white man to have a fight without being a racial incident.

00:00:04.840 Why can't you have a fight because you just didn't like him?

00:00:06.940 Yeah.

00:00:13.420 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:17.280 I'm Constantine Kishin.

00:00:18.400 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:23.700 A brilliant guest we have for you today is a former Liverpool and England legend,

00:00:27.960 John Barnes. Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:29.260 Thank you very much.

00:00:30.380 I mentioned you're a Liverpool legend, so Anton is already triggered.

00:00:33.480 But it's good to have you on the show.

00:00:35.440 First of all, there are no legends.

00:00:36.920 We're just normal people, normal footballers who contribute to the success or the failures of your football club.

00:00:41.780 And as much as fans may see us differently depending on how well you do,

00:00:45.180 as individuals or as football players, which is what I learned at Watford and Liverpool,

00:00:48.300 is we're all just part of a team. Just like in here.

00:00:50.680 Well deflated, John, but to people of our generation, you're one of the iconic footballers of your era.

00:00:57.280 You must be old.

00:00:57.980 I am, mate. I absolutely am.

00:01:01.380 But the question I want to ask you is, you know, how have you gone from that?

00:01:05.440 Because in your introduction, I didn't mention that, you know, one of the reasons we wanted to talk to you

00:01:09.160 is you've got a book out, The Uncomfortable Truth About Racism.

00:01:11.840 How have you gone from being a very successful footballer, then being a very successful pundit,

00:01:17.680 commenting on football, to where you are now, which is writing a book that's going to piss a lot of people off

00:01:22.940 on both sides of the argument?

00:01:24.540 I haven't gone from being a footballer to what I'm doing now.

00:01:27.580 This is who I always was.

00:01:29.040 What I was was a footballer.

00:01:30.840 Who I am, I've not changed at all.

00:01:32.460 I've always had perceptions and things and thought about things.

00:01:35.340 But unfortunately, a lot of people look at football.

00:01:38.640 And if you talk about footballers themselves, they get caught up with what they are, with who they are.

00:01:42.940 And of course, we're all different because if you are a whatever job you do, that doesn't mean that's who you are.

00:01:47.060 That's what you do.

00:01:48.120 So what I did was a footballer.

00:01:49.260 But who I was always was someone who probably thought differently to other people in terms of discrimination,

00:01:54.480 sexism, homophobia, lots of different things.

00:01:56.300 So I haven't changed at all.

00:01:58.380 So you always had this book in you is what you're saying?

00:02:01.040 Oh, not necessarily.

00:02:01.980 I didn't necessarily think I was going to write a book, but I always had these thoughts and these perceptions.

00:02:05.580 And now they've come out in book form.

00:02:07.420 So if I didn't write a book, I would still think it.

00:02:09.640 So as I said, why I decided to write a book and why it took so long, it took eight years, at least maybe ten,

00:02:15.720 because it wasn't ghostwritten.

00:02:17.940 I wrote it myself.

00:02:19.380 So of course, I then had to go to people who are a bit more intelligent than me,

00:02:22.060 meaning my daughter and my children and my sisters,

00:02:24.240 so they could get the spellings and the punctuations and the paragraphs right.

00:02:27.520 So they're my words.

00:02:28.360 But of course, now they're all spelled correctly.

00:02:31.120 Right.

00:02:31.480 Punctuations are in the right place.

00:02:32.720 Yeah.

00:02:33.180 And look, before we get into some of the ideas and the themes in the book,

00:02:36.920 can you just give everybody, because I think when we talk about the issue of race and racism now,

00:02:42.000 a lot of young people in particular,

00:02:43.720 they don't really know what people of your generation in terms of football actually went through

00:02:49.160 playing in this country in the 80s.

00:02:51.480 Can you give people sort of a sense of what it was like at the time?

00:02:57.780 The book has got nothing to do with that.

00:02:59.880 And if I want to talk about it from my perspective, we go through different things, don't we?

00:03:03.960 So what did happen was you got racial abuse from the stand and bananas came on the field.

00:03:08.060 We saw the football.

00:03:08.840 What can we say that's different to that?

00:03:10.320 And you can see that now.

00:03:11.680 So for me to say what I went through isn't any different to what any black player went through

00:03:15.340 and what black players are going through now,

00:03:17.280 as much as bananas may not be coming on the field,

00:03:18.920 but if it's looking at it and it's like on social media, so it's all the same.

00:03:22.440 So the book isn't about what I went through.

00:03:25.520 The book is my perception of it.

00:03:26.800 And even, not to mind the book being my perception of it,

00:03:29.140 it's also my perception of what I was going through.

00:03:31.040 It's completely different to Ian Wright's perception of what he went through.

00:03:33.620 Just to give you an example, what I went through was,

00:03:36.180 first of all, you have to look in the context of where I came from.

00:03:40.720 I came from Jamaica as a 13-year-old boy, light-skinned, middle-class, elite family,

00:03:45.800 who growing up in Jamaica would look at the discrimination towards black working-class people,

00:03:51.440 from people like me, light-skinned and elite people,

00:03:54.680 and understand that here is a similar thing.

00:03:56.400 It's not, it may not be, it wasn't racial in Jamaica,

00:03:58.340 but it was still an elite and a non-elite situation.

00:04:00.500 Here it may be racial discrimination, but it's still the same.

00:04:03.780 It's about the narrative that we have been told about a different group of people

00:04:06.880 who we feel superior to or inferior to.

00:04:08.640 So, of course, now, coming to an end at 13 years old,

00:04:11.460 fully formed as a human being, fully confident in my own ability,

00:04:15.160 in fact, probably feeling superior to most working-class people, if you like.

00:04:19.880 When white working-class football fans want to abuse me,

00:04:22.820 how can I feel inferior to them?

00:04:24.440 So, therefore, it never affected me at all.

00:04:26.780 I never suffered racism.

00:04:28.040 I experienced racist incidents,

00:04:31.160 but that never affected me or made me feel less than or unworthy

00:04:33.560 or wanting not to play football.

00:04:35.160 So, obviously, I completely empathize with other black footballers

00:04:38.280 who would have had a different experience growing up to me,

00:04:40.340 who suffered racism and it made them feel less than and they felt unworthy.

00:04:44.080 Because even when I came to England, we lived in Golis, Green Highgate and Mayfair.

00:04:46.860 My dad was a diplomat, so we had diplomatic plates

00:04:48.720 and I could go to the higher echelons of any industry that I wanted to.

00:04:52.560 And as a footballer, I still can.

00:04:54.360 So, what I always felt as a 17, 18-year-old boy

00:04:56.880 was while I was getting racially abused on the football field,

00:05:00.120 as much as I know that if I came off the field,

00:05:01.740 those same people abusing me would probably want to picture an autograph, wouldn't they?

00:05:04.980 Probably. Individually.

00:05:07.240 And when I looked into the stand,

00:05:08.940 and while people felt sorry for me or black players on the pitch,

00:05:11.460 when I looked into the stand and I saw black football fans,

00:05:14.180 working-class football fans who no one cares about,

00:05:15.880 being racially abused, being beaten up,

00:05:17.580 no one speaks for them and we're still doing the same thing now.

00:05:19.860 40 years, 30 years later, 40 years later,

00:05:22.260 talking about how terrible it is for the footballers,

00:05:24.260 whereas no one who talks about,

00:05:25.720 if you want to look at it from a footballing perspective,

00:05:27.620 football fans who get abused every day,

00:05:29.480 but no one talks about them.

00:05:30.360 So let's go back down even more so where it affects people in society

00:05:34.380 and no one's talking about what's happening.

00:05:36.560 The kids read knife crime, education, housing, access to social care.

00:05:41.740 And I said, I've got a solution to the problem in knife crime.

00:05:44.560 100%. I could solve it tomorrow.

00:05:47.920 Let them start stabbing people in Mayfair.

00:05:50.320 Then it'll be gone because we'll do something about it.

00:05:53.080 So that is really what the book is about.

00:05:55.280 We have to do it from the bottom up,

00:05:56.400 looking at how we have to have a perception of the average black person.

00:06:00.740 It's also intersectional, the average woman, the average gay person,

00:06:04.140 rather than from the top down looking to put these positions,

00:06:06.680 people in positions of power,

00:06:08.260 thinking that it'll filter down to affect everybody down below.

00:06:10.480 So really that's the essence of the book.

00:06:11.820 But of course, as you rightly say,

00:06:13.360 you can take little snippets of the book and push back

00:06:15.140 to either prove one way or the other.

00:06:17.300 And a big problem I'm having is because a lot of people

00:06:19.440 on one side of the argument are saying,

00:06:20.680 you're saying nothing is racist and football fans aren't racist

00:06:23.120 and you're defending racism.

00:06:24.060 And on the other hand, you have people saying,

00:06:26.080 you're saying everything is racist.

00:06:27.060 So I just want them to argue talk between themselves.

00:06:29.040 I just do what I do.

00:06:30.940 It's a very interesting point.

00:06:32.780 One of the things I found really interesting in your book

00:06:35.060 was how you were talking,

00:06:36.820 because you came here as a 12-year-old boy from Jamaica,

00:06:40.320 that you were judged more harshly,

00:06:43.580 even to black players in the team who had grown up

00:06:46.400 because it was more like one of our own.

00:06:48.260 Whilst with you, you were constantly having to prove

00:06:50.880 that you were proud to play for England and play for the team.

00:06:54.060 Well, that really came from a story that Jimmy Greaves wrote

00:06:57.220 about the fact that I wasn't born in England.

00:07:00.260 So therefore, how committed am I to England?

00:07:01.800 And secondly, even more importantly,

00:07:03.420 then of course, growing up in Jamaica in the 70s,

00:07:07.080 even coming to England in the 70s,

00:07:08.760 that's when the West Indies cricket team

00:07:09.960 were the best in the world.

00:07:11.460 And of course, I used to have a bit of banter

00:07:13.220 with Brian Robson and other players about,

00:07:15.000 oh, West Indies are better than England.

00:07:16.300 And of course, that was then put in the paper

00:07:17.680 to then show that I'm not committed to England.

00:07:20.280 So, you know, that's understandable

00:07:21.900 because this is conditioning by the media

00:07:23.720 to make us feel certain things.

00:07:25.320 So if you want to just use that as a microcosm,

00:07:26.880 is how we've been conditioned to think

00:07:28.060 in terms of hierarchy, racial, gender, or sexuality,

00:07:31.900 it is completely understandable.

00:07:33.420 Completely understandable.

00:07:34.300 And I always use the example of,

00:07:36.240 and it's not just the ones who get caught,

00:07:37.380 who say something.

00:07:38.380 Most of us believe that

00:07:39.900 because we wouldn't throw a banana on the pitch,

00:07:41.320 we're not racist.

00:07:42.680 We'll never rape a woman, so we're not sexist.

00:07:44.500 And we'll never beat up somebody who's gay,

00:07:46.580 so we're not homophobic.

00:07:47.720 But we are somewhere along the line, all of us.

00:07:49.700 It's not a binary choice.

00:07:50.700 It's not either are or you aren't.

00:07:51.660 So the majority of us are.

00:07:53.260 But of course, because we then think

00:07:54.720 that, you know, we wouldn't do that.

00:07:56.480 We're not racist or sexist or homophobic.

00:08:01.800 That is the big problem.

00:08:03.120 Martin Luther King said in 1963

00:08:04.580 that it's the shallow understanding by good people

00:08:07.760 rather than the total misunderstanding by bad people

00:08:11.100 is a problem.

00:08:11.740 Meaning it's not the idiots

00:08:12.540 who are throwing bananas on the field

00:08:14.060 who are the problem

00:08:14.680 with systemic racism affecting people

00:08:17.220 here in the inner cities

00:08:18.020 in terms of jobs and education

00:08:19.160 is the ones who don't think that they are.

00:08:21.460 And that is why, to use as a football example,

00:08:23.600 when a female referee goes onto the pitch,

00:08:26.100 the vast majority of men think

00:08:27.740 before they see whether she's good or not.

00:08:30.180 Because men will always say,

00:08:31.260 oh, I'll wait to see how good she is,

00:08:32.800 so therefore I don't have a judgment.

00:08:34.440 But our initial thought is,

00:08:36.400 I think a man will be better.

00:08:37.600 The vast majority of us.

00:08:38.700 But we won't admit it, will we?

00:08:39.980 Because we'll get sacked, we'll get cancelled.

00:08:41.440 And until we can have this honest conversation

00:08:43.360 like the truth and reconciliation

00:08:44.860 in Rwanda and South Africa

00:08:46.480 about how you really feel,

00:08:48.120 nothing will change.

00:08:48.820 All we'll do is we just cancel and sack

00:08:50.460 the ones who get caught.

00:08:51.900 And from the vast majority of us

00:08:53.340 who may feel the same

00:08:54.460 but not say anything,

00:08:55.420 we'll then convince society

00:08:56.980 that we've given the illusion

00:08:57.900 that everything is okay.

00:08:58.740 It's a really interesting thought,

00:09:00.940 John, because you mentioned being cancelled.

00:09:03.360 And I think that's one of the difficulties

00:09:05.280 in having any conversation.

00:09:06.920 I'm really appreciating the way

00:09:08.160 you're coming at it.

00:09:10.240 Because how do we have a conversation?

00:09:13.220 Because we've got to a point

00:09:14.280 where any insensitive comment,

00:09:16.580 any insensitive remark

00:09:17.780 is automatically now,

00:09:20.140 you know, it's the worst thing

00:09:21.140 you can do in society,

00:09:22.260 saying something wrong.

00:09:23.280 And you will get destroyed.

00:09:24.620 Your career will be ruined, etc.

00:09:26.680 But how do we,

00:09:27.680 like you've just said,

00:09:29.080 something which I think

00:09:29.860 is probably true,

00:09:30.680 which is a female referee,

00:09:33.380 assistant referee,

00:09:34.420 a lot of men will be like,

00:09:35.620 well, let's see,

00:09:36.720 at the very least,

00:09:37.800 they'll be extra wary, right?

00:09:40.460 How do we have that conversation?

00:09:41.920 Because you've just admitted

00:09:42.880 that that's how most men will think.

00:09:45.240 But if anyone said,

00:09:46.460 I think a woman

00:09:47.820 is probably less capable,

00:09:50.000 you'd be wrecked.

00:09:51.040 That's what I mean.

00:09:51.740 But, so what we have to do,

00:09:52.860 we have to challenge

00:09:53.460 why you think that in the first place.

00:09:54.620 So, I think a man will be better.

00:09:56.600 And I'm happy to say that.

00:09:58.140 But, what I mean by that

00:09:59.460 is that my initial thought

00:10:00.680 is yes, a man will be better.

00:10:01.840 And then before I even see

00:10:02.880 whether he's better or not,

00:10:04.000 she's better or not,

00:10:04.940 I say to myself,

00:10:05.920 why did I think that?

00:10:07.360 Because I've owned it with myself.

00:10:08.520 And I say,

00:10:08.760 why I've thought that

00:10:09.320 is because life has wrongly shown me

00:10:10.900 that men are better than women.

00:10:12.720 But that's wrong to think that.

00:10:14.380 So because I've owned it

00:10:15.360 and I've said,

00:10:15.720 then I can change it.

00:10:16.840 If I just go,

00:10:17.580 well, no, I don't mean,

00:10:19.000 that's what the truth

00:10:19.820 of reconciliation is.

00:10:20.600 We have to be honest with ourselves.

00:10:22.120 And it's not just with women,

00:10:23.100 it's with race, it's with gender,

00:10:24.520 it's with North and South.

00:10:25.480 I got off the train yesterday.

00:10:26.480 I got off the train yesterday

00:10:27.520 at Houston.

00:10:29.400 I had to go from King's Cross

00:10:30.540 to Blackfriars,

00:10:31.200 where the event was.

00:10:32.020 As I'm walking through,

00:10:32.720 there's lots of building work going on.

00:10:34.100 And there was a conversation going on.

00:10:35.740 I haven't got a clue

00:10:36.240 what the conversation was.

00:10:37.300 I just heard the man

00:10:38.180 who I consider to be the foreman

00:10:39.380 because he seemed to be in charge.

00:10:40.820 I just heard his voice.

00:10:42.080 Didn't hear anything else.

00:10:42.960 All I heard him say was,

00:10:44.460 that's a very Northern attitude to have.

00:10:47.140 Now, I didn't even have to think

00:10:48.840 what kind of an attitude

00:10:49.800 that would have been,

00:10:50.380 but I knew it would have been,

00:10:51.460 the perception would have been

00:10:52.240 an inferior attitude.

00:10:53.880 Because that's how we've been

00:10:54.760 conditioned to think.

00:10:55.700 So don't blame the individuals

00:10:56.920 who get caught.

00:10:57.800 Look at the environment

00:10:58.940 they've been brought up in

00:10:59.760 and challenge that

00:11:00.560 rather than thinking,

00:11:01.680 no, this doesn't exist.

00:11:03.060 You know, bias is not about,

00:11:04.160 in fact, the book is not about race.

00:11:05.640 I call it an uncomfortable

00:11:06.840 to use about racism

00:11:07.620 because racism is a hot topic

00:11:09.360 at the moment

00:11:09.760 and hopefully get more books out.

00:11:11.360 But to be honest with you,

00:11:12.260 it's about,

00:11:12.800 it's about,

00:11:13.400 it's very,

00:11:14.300 it's about intersectionality.

00:11:15.520 It's about,

00:11:16.120 because from a black perspective also,

00:11:17.520 you look at what's going on

00:11:18.480 in the Caribbean and Africa,

00:11:19.480 and this is not a,

00:11:20.460 this is not a judgment

00:11:21.200 on the Caribbean and Africa.

00:11:22.220 It's a judgment

00:11:22.920 as the legacy of colonialism,

00:11:24.100 which meant that

00:11:24.840 from an elite point of view,

00:11:26.280 you know,

00:11:26.500 because there's still colonial

00:11:27.600 and from an economic point of view,

00:11:30.140 there's still the legacy

00:11:32.400 of colonial exploitation

00:11:34.340 from a financial point of view

00:11:36.080 because, of course,

00:11:37.200 the West still controls

00:11:38.100 the economics.

00:11:38.680 So it's economic colonization

00:11:40.020 is still going on.

00:11:41.260 So don't blame black Africans

00:11:43.180 for disenfranchising black Africans

00:11:44.640 or black,

00:11:45.080 or light-skinned elite black Jamaicans

00:11:46.720 because this is what has happened.

00:11:47.700 But we're trying to simplify it

00:11:49.620 by making it a white

00:11:50.580 and a black issue.

00:11:51.460 But it's not

00:11:51.940 because, of course,

00:11:52.800 one of the most discriminated

00:11:54.760 against groups

00:11:55.360 who aren't considered

00:11:57.020 at all in this debate

00:11:58.160 are white working class people

00:11:59.580 because they're suffering

00:12:01.800 equally as well,

00:12:02.980 not because they're white,

00:12:04.060 but in other ways.

00:12:05.160 So this is really

00:12:05.800 what the book is about

00:12:06.520 so that we can have

00:12:07.100 an honest conversation

00:12:07.780 about discrimination, basically.

00:12:10.980 But do you not think,

00:12:12.100 John,

00:12:12.280 that every time,

00:12:13.220 you know,

00:12:13.460 somebody says something

00:12:14.440 which is racist

00:12:15.260 or derogatory

00:12:16.060 or even it can be

00:12:16.840 a slip of the tongue,

00:12:18.100 and you see people

00:12:19.040 being dragged for it

00:12:19.940 on social media

00:12:20.600 and you see it being cancelled

00:12:22.080 and then it turns into

00:12:22.920 a Twitter storm

00:12:23.680 and there's a pile on.

00:12:24.920 Every time we have that,

00:12:26.460 it just sets us back

00:12:27.780 another step.

00:12:28.360 It's another step.

00:12:29.260 It depends what it is.

00:12:30.240 That's why I'm saying

00:12:30.680 intense is the most important thing.

00:12:32.260 Look at it, for example,

00:12:33.440 like with Amber Rudd

00:12:34.960 and Diane Abbott.

00:12:36.000 When Amber Rudd said

00:12:37.040 that women have it hard

00:12:38.520 in politics,

00:12:39.080 let's have that conversation.

00:12:40.020 Women in politics

00:12:40.620 have a hard time,

00:12:41.300 let's have that conversation.

00:12:42.860 A more hard-hitting

00:12:43.740 and meaningful conversation

00:12:44.720 is how hard black women

00:12:46.100 have it in politics.

00:12:47.400 But Amber Rudd said

00:12:48.100 coloured women

00:12:48.680 have it even harder.

00:12:49.860 Is she not being positive about

00:12:51.440 what she said the wrong words?

00:12:52.560 She said coloured

00:12:52.980 instead of black.

00:12:54.120 So instead of Diane Abbott

00:12:55.180 saying,

00:12:55.580 well, you know,

00:12:56.500 you should have said

00:12:57.000 black, not coloured,

00:12:57.720 but let's have this discussion

00:12:58.600 about how hard it is

00:12:59.340 for black women,

00:13:00.400 she never said that.

00:13:01.060 She said sack her

00:13:01.560 because she said coloured.

00:13:02.240 So that conversation's lost.

00:13:03.720 You're so right.

00:13:04.540 You know,

00:13:04.820 I used to run a comedy club.

00:13:06.120 I've given this example.

00:13:07.400 People who watch the show

00:13:08.120 regularly will know.

00:13:09.480 And one of the acts

00:13:10.740 was a friend of ours.

00:13:12.020 He does an act

00:13:12.740 called President of Bonjo.

00:13:13.900 He puts this military dictator.

00:13:15.460 He's an African guy.

00:13:16.800 And he does it.

00:13:17.600 And after the gig,

00:13:18.860 a member of the audience

00:13:19.680 came up to me.

00:13:20.320 This is like a rural gig

00:13:21.360 in Tunbridge, Wales.

00:13:22.200 A guy in his probably

00:13:23.140 late 60s came up to me

00:13:24.720 and he said,

00:13:25.380 oh, I loved that first act.

00:13:26.820 You know,

00:13:27.120 the coloured chap

00:13:28.020 because he'd forgot.

00:13:28.980 Yeah.

00:13:29.180 And I thought

00:13:29.960 if you'd taken that

00:13:31.700 as a video

00:13:32.280 and you put it online,

00:13:33.420 this guy's life

00:13:34.160 would be destroyed.

00:13:34.820 But what was he trying to say?

00:13:36.000 He was trying to say

00:13:36.700 how good he was.

00:13:37.360 How good he was.

00:13:37.880 How good he was.

00:13:38.360 Alan Hansen said the same thing.

00:13:39.440 Alan Hansen said,

00:13:40.200 coloured players are fantastic.

00:13:41.260 They brought so much to the game.

00:13:42.160 They wanted to be sacked.

00:13:43.280 I said to Alan,

00:13:43.920 you know what you should have said?

00:13:44.940 Can we swear?

00:13:45.880 Yeah, of course you can.

00:13:46.640 Of course you can.

00:13:47.060 It's not going to be a real swear.

00:13:49.100 I said, Alan,

00:13:49.700 you know what you should have said?

00:13:50.440 You should have said

00:13:50.920 black players are shit

00:13:51.760 because it means

00:13:53.180 you got the word right, black.

00:13:55.140 And you would have been

00:13:55.720 in trouble, would you?

00:13:57.020 But instead of saying

00:13:57.720 coloured players are good

00:13:58.540 and you get in trouble for that

00:13:59.520 when he's trying to praise us

00:14:00.960 and say how good we are.

00:14:02.220 Greg Clark went through

00:14:02.880 the same thing

00:14:03.600 when he talked about coloured people.

00:14:05.000 But then he went on to say also,

00:14:06.460 and this is where

00:14:07.060 the nuances around

00:14:08.580 language and understanding,

00:14:10.840 particularly with new concepts

00:14:12.760 coming forward every day.

00:14:14.980 And Greg Clark said about

00:14:16.440 gay,

00:14:17.900 he would love a gay player to come out.

00:14:19.240 He would get so much support.

00:14:20.500 He would get so much love and trust.

00:14:22.000 And this is what we need

00:14:22.760 to support the gay community

00:14:23.800 because we'd love a gay player

00:14:24.780 to come out

00:14:25.260 because, you know,

00:14:26.180 he made a life choice to be gay.

00:14:27.820 Oh, no, he didn't.

00:14:29.060 Obviously.

00:14:29.740 But of course, he doesn't know it.

00:14:30.500 But he's trying to be positive

00:14:31.180 with saying what gay people

00:14:31.980 to come out.

00:14:32.360 And because of his age,

00:14:33.180 he doesn't understand that.

00:14:34.300 He's now been cancelled

00:14:35.240 and now he's left his job

00:14:36.240 because of that.

00:14:36.960 And I say to young people now

00:14:38.120 who use language,

00:14:39.460 particularly just language

00:14:40.800 as the marker

00:14:42.040 rather than intent,

00:14:43.740 in 30 years time,

00:14:44.620 whatever you're using now

00:14:45.260 may change.

00:14:46.040 Oh, 100.

00:14:46.500 And then what's going to happen?

00:14:47.200 Five years time.

00:14:47.960 Yeah, five years time.

00:14:48.780 Ten years time.

00:14:49.260 And then what's going to happen

00:14:49.860 when you are used to saying something

00:14:51.140 and you have the right intention,

00:14:52.280 but you say the wrong thing.

00:14:53.560 Do you expect them

00:14:54.220 to be sacked or cancelled?

00:14:55.520 So that is why intent

00:14:56.720 is the most important thing for me.

00:14:59.500 It's amazing how we tinker

00:15:01.000 with language.

00:15:02.060 But we're more obsessed

00:15:03.060 about discussing

00:15:04.220 whether BAME is racist

00:15:05.760 than in actually having

00:15:07.240 the discussion.

00:15:08.160 Because it's easy.

00:15:09.320 Well, it's very similar

00:15:10.300 to taking the knee.

00:15:11.000 The discussion is now

00:15:11.660 not about why we're taking the knee

00:15:13.400 and a tangible difference

00:15:15.380 that's made

00:15:16.220 because we're highlighting a problem.

00:15:17.980 It's now whether we have

00:15:18.740 the right to take the knee.

00:15:20.120 If you look at the Me Too movement,

00:15:21.340 which was started by Tarana Burke

00:15:22.520 many years ago

00:15:23.260 to highlight the sexual abuse

00:15:25.420 for young black girls

00:15:26.080 in the inner cities,

00:15:27.060 that's not what the Me Too movement is.

00:15:28.580 The Me Too movement is about

00:15:29.300 a Hollywood actress

00:15:29.880 who was abused by Harvey Weinstein

00:15:31.260 and elite groups of women

00:15:32.460 who now may be, you know,

00:15:33.920 not being given opportunities

00:15:35.040 because of sexism.

00:15:36.200 Whereas that's not what it was.

00:15:37.340 That's not what it was.

00:15:38.140 So it's been hijacked

00:15:38.780 by an elite group of people

00:15:39.860 for their own end

00:15:41.080 rather than the original meaning.

00:15:42.760 So just like taking the knee

00:15:43.860 by Colin Kaepernick

00:15:44.640 was about injustice and police

00:15:45.820 in the inner cities,

00:15:46.500 it's now about

00:15:47.040 I have the right to take the knee.

00:15:48.340 So the discussion now

00:15:49.500 isn't about why we're taking the knee.

00:15:51.200 It's, should we take a knee or not?

00:15:53.140 What for?

00:15:53.840 Don't really care.

00:15:54.900 But we should still do it.

00:15:56.260 Because as we've passed

00:15:57.120 the red card down the line

00:15:58.200 in the Champions League

00:15:59.020 for 25 years,

00:16:01.480 that's made no difference.

00:16:02.820 What it does

00:16:03.300 is it highlights the problem.

00:16:04.680 So what football can do

00:16:05.540 is highlight the problem.

00:16:06.800 It can't change or solve the problem.

00:16:08.140 But we believe

00:16:08.760 just by highlighting it,

00:16:09.840 that's enough.

00:16:10.700 And the more we just keep

00:16:11.560 talking about that

00:16:12.780 and feeling that

00:16:13.300 we're doing something,

00:16:13.920 we're doing something,

00:16:14.380 we're doing something,

00:16:15.160 nothing changes

00:16:15.960 for the majority of people.

00:16:17.160 Do you support

00:16:18.280 the Wilfred Zaha position?

00:16:19.760 I don't know if you know

00:16:20.400 his position,

00:16:21.000 which is I'm not going

00:16:21.880 to take the knee

00:16:22.420 because it's a token gesture

00:16:23.880 and therefore it doesn't achieve.

00:16:25.360 I support his decision

00:16:26.700 and I support the decision

00:16:27.500 of people who want to take the knee

00:16:28.440 just to highlight the problem

00:16:29.880 because Wilfred Zaha

00:16:30.760 not taking the knee

00:16:31.680 doesn't solve the problem either.

00:16:33.200 What it does,

00:16:33.600 it highlights his stance

00:16:35.560 and I'm making a stance against it.

00:16:37.320 But just by not taking the knee

00:16:38.480 and maybe even doing that,

00:16:39.700 that's not going to change

00:16:40.560 anything either.

00:16:41.520 What's going to change something

00:16:42.360 is us to make a tangible difference,

00:16:44.380 is to talk about

00:16:45.160 why are we taking it in the first place?

00:16:46.740 Why am I standing and doing that?

00:16:47.960 That's why I use Marcus Rashford

00:16:49.040 as an example.

00:16:50.180 Marcus Rashford,

00:16:51.000 who single-handedly

00:16:52.160 changed government policy towards,

00:16:53.920 and this is not to do with race

00:16:54.980 but it's to do with underprivileged,

00:16:56.480 he used his platform

00:16:57.960 to change government policy

00:16:59.400 about feeding underprivileged kids

00:17:01.500 with free school dinners.

00:17:03.380 Not about Eastern European racist fans

00:17:05.680 or extreme bananas on the field

00:17:06.680 to stop doing that

00:17:07.580 because Eastern European fans

00:17:09.400 throwing a banana on the field

00:17:10.280 are racially abusing,

00:17:11.120 of course it's wrong

00:17:11.900 and we have to do something about that.

00:17:13.140 But that is not the reason

00:17:14.460 why there are kids

00:17:16.260 stabbing each other in London

00:17:17.200 and can't get jobs

00:17:18.580 and housing

00:17:18.920 and a good education

00:17:19.960 and the more we just focus on that

00:17:21.480 and ignore that

00:17:22.260 and think that that's making a difference,

00:17:24.160 what that's making a difference to

00:17:25.280 are footballers,

00:17:27.880 nobody else.

00:17:29.520 So yes,

00:17:30.420 we have to do both

00:17:31.180 as people keep telling me

00:17:32.040 but we're not doing both.

00:17:33.260 The elite are talking about things

00:17:34.520 that are going to affect them

00:17:35.400 and systemic racism

00:17:37.440 doesn't affect footballers.

00:17:39.580 Individual acts of racism,

00:17:40.720 bananas on the field

00:17:41.380 and for the other six days of the week

00:17:43.480 the system rewards them

00:17:45.540 in the money they make,

00:17:46.880 the houses they live,

00:17:47.740 the places they can go,

00:17:48.600 they can go to all of the elite places

00:17:50.220 which the system allows them to.

00:17:52.680 Systemic racism affects

00:17:53.840 people in the community

00:17:55.660 and that is where

00:17:57.080 we have to really tackle it.

00:17:58.580 Yes, we have to do both

00:17:59.420 but we're not doing both.

00:18:00.440 John, one of the things

00:18:01.120 that I'm a bit confused there

00:18:02.720 to clear up

00:18:04.160 is I think what you're saying

00:18:06.140 quite a lot

00:18:06.660 and you mention this a lot

00:18:07.740 obviously in the book

00:18:08.400 is it's largely a class issue,

00:18:11.640 right?

00:18:12.720 Well, not just class,

00:18:13.660 elitism as well.

00:18:14.380 Yeah, it's quite nuanced

00:18:14.960 but yeah, go ahead.

00:18:16.000 What's the difference

00:18:16.700 between class and elitism?

00:18:18.400 Because you can have

00:18:18.940 working class people

00:18:21.780 who are elite.

00:18:22.880 Footballers are working class,

00:18:23.960 the majority of them

00:18:24.600 but they are in an elite system

00:18:25.800 because they're allowed

00:18:26.440 to be there.

00:18:27.060 Fair point.

00:18:27.920 I mean, footballers are obviously

00:18:29.620 a tiny minority of society.

00:18:31.280 Exactly.

00:18:31.700 Actors, singers, rappers

00:18:32.760 but these are the ones

00:18:33.940 who we are focusing on.

00:18:35.140 They're a tiny group

00:18:37.620 of disenfranchised people

00:18:38.880 but we're disproportionately

00:18:40.580 making out that

00:18:41.860 what we have to do

00:18:43.000 is we have to support them

00:18:43.860 more than the masses.

00:18:45.380 Yeah.

00:18:45.680 I guess what I'm getting at

00:18:47.180 and I'm just posing this

00:18:48.540 as a devil's advocate,

00:18:49.540 understand this,

00:18:50.860 is it helpful

00:18:51.760 to add race

00:18:52.780 into the conversation

00:18:53.680 or is it just a class issue

00:18:55.600 in terms of focusing

00:18:56.860 on solving it?

00:18:57.840 Absolutely not.

00:18:58.520 Of course you have to

00:18:59.100 add race into it

00:18:59.700 when race is applicable.

00:19:01.300 Right.

00:19:01.600 But there are times

00:19:02.020 when race isn't applicable

00:19:02.840 but of course

00:19:03.840 because everything is racist

00:19:04.880 and that's the point

00:19:06.040 I'm trying to make.

00:19:06.620 I guess what I'm saying

00:19:07.680 let me give you an example.

00:19:08.600 So take education for example.

00:19:10.080 People talk about problems

00:19:11.360 for people from

00:19:13.240 the Afro-Caribbean community

00:19:15.120 particularly,

00:19:16.060 specifically in education

00:19:17.540 and what you see

00:19:18.600 is West Africans for example

00:19:20.140 do very well in this country.

00:19:21.440 As opposed to Caribbean boys.

00:19:22.540 Exactly.

00:19:23.360 And white boys

00:19:24.200 do even worse.

00:19:25.620 White working class boys.

00:19:26.320 White working class boys

00:19:26.420 do even worse.

00:19:27.280 And even Indian boys

00:19:28.120 the Bangladeshi boys.

00:19:29.120 Exactly.

00:19:29.480 Of course.

00:19:30.220 So I would argue

00:19:31.480 that's not,

00:19:32.560 I mean it might be

00:19:33.240 an element of race involved

00:19:34.880 but if you look at it

00:19:36.060 on the surface

00:19:36.860 you're going well

00:19:37.900 white boys are at the bottom

00:19:38.820 of the pile

00:19:39.280 Africans and Indians

00:19:41.620 are doing great.

00:19:42.780 That's not a race issue

00:19:43.740 that's a class issue.

00:19:44.880 That's not a class

00:19:45.280 because Bangladeshi boys

00:19:46.640 aren't necessarily

00:19:47.260 a lower class

00:19:48.060 or West African boys

00:19:49.200 aren't a lower class

00:19:49.840 the Caribbean boys.

00:19:50.720 So that's not a class.

00:19:51.760 So what is the issue?

00:19:52.760 That could be culture

00:19:53.440 because culturally

00:19:54.100 I'm not allowed

00:19:54.660 to say that.

00:19:55.220 You are.

00:19:55.500 Well yeah.

00:19:56.080 Well it could be.

00:19:57.020 That's what I'm saying

00:19:57.680 and it could

00:19:57.980 because if you look at

00:19:58.900 Indians to Pakistanis

00:20:00.120 for example

00:20:00.480 because of course

00:20:00.980 you know the caste system

00:20:01.680 in India

00:20:01.960 has nothing to do with

00:20:02.860 you know whether

00:20:03.760 you're Indian

00:20:04.140 or Bangladeshi

00:20:05.040 or Pakistani.

00:20:05.860 So those are the nuances

00:20:07.000 around you

00:20:07.440 and these are the conversations

00:20:08.220 that have to happen.

00:20:08.540 I'm so glad you said this.

00:20:09.280 But unfortunately

00:20:09.820 what has been pushed into it

00:20:11.660 and that's why

00:20:12.320 it's quite good to be black now

00:20:13.360 because we can say

00:20:13.860 a lot of things

00:20:14.320 and get away with it.

00:20:15.640 That's one of the good things

00:20:16.460 about being black

00:20:17.080 whereas I know

00:20:17.700 white people can't

00:20:18.520 and of course

00:20:19.320 you know

00:20:19.920 you've recently become white

00:20:23.260 because Greeks

00:20:23.660 weren't necessarily white.

00:20:24.540 Well I'm Jewish

00:20:25.180 I'm Jewish as well.

00:20:26.340 You're Jewish

00:20:26.680 but there's no hope

00:20:27.540 for you is there.

00:20:28.440 And that's interesting

00:20:29.420 because I got

00:20:30.820 a bit of abuse

00:20:31.640 for talking about

00:20:32.340 in the book

00:20:33.180 because what they've done

00:20:33.740 they've taken little bits

00:20:34.540 out of the book

00:20:35.000 and they've had this conversation

00:20:35.880 and go oh that's terrible

00:20:36.760 because the whole idea

00:20:37.940 of are the Jews

00:20:39.420 a race of people

00:20:40.440 in terms of

00:20:40.920 because you can have

00:20:41.400 blonde hair blue eyed Jews

00:20:42.220 you can have Ashkenazi Jews

00:20:43.680 you can have Sephardic Jews

00:20:44.660 you can have black Jews.

00:20:45.780 So if you have Ethiopian Jews

00:20:47.020 are they Negroes

00:20:48.460 or black

00:20:49.020 or what are they?

00:20:50.220 And it's more to do

00:20:50.780 with the fact

00:20:51.080 that everybody's

00:20:51.780 discriminated against

00:20:52.460 but you can't just

00:20:52.960 lump everything with race

00:20:53.860 and what is race

00:20:55.020 and what is racism

00:20:55.640 there are certain

00:20:56.100 discriminations

00:20:57.020 that aren't racism

00:20:57.560 I would love the day

00:20:59.280 to go back

00:20:59.920 not to go back

00:21:00.600 to the old days

00:21:01.100 but I'd love a day

00:21:02.120 I'd love a day

00:21:03.000 for a black man

00:21:04.040 and a white man

00:21:04.720 to have a fight

00:21:05.360 without being a racial incident

00:21:06.540 why can't you have a fight

00:21:07.920 because you just didn't like him?

00:21:09.100 Yeah

00:21:09.200 Music to our ears man

00:21:11.240 It's true

00:21:11.980 but we seem to live

00:21:13.280 in this society

00:21:14.060 where everything

00:21:15.180 is becoming hyper racialised

00:21:17.120 yet we don't want

00:21:18.340 to solve the problems

00:21:19.380 that we have

00:21:20.140 we would prefer

00:21:21.580 to win an argument

00:21:22.520 than to solve a problem

00:21:23.620 and when we've reached

00:21:24.460 that point

00:21:24.980 you think

00:21:25.660 well we're screwed

00:21:26.520 aren't we?

00:21:26.840 Well because we're just

00:21:27.360 because we are arguing

00:21:28.500 at this lower level

00:21:29.460 which is completely

00:21:30.160 inconsequential

00:21:30.840 to the real problem

00:21:32.480 which is up here

00:21:33.580 whereby it's about

00:21:34.320 discrimination

00:21:34.780 for different groups

00:21:35.480 of people

00:21:35.900 and the more people

00:21:36.780 we can discriminate

00:21:37.320 against

00:21:37.680 the better the system works

00:21:39.060 we live in a capitalist society

00:21:40.880 this is what happens

00:21:41.860 this is what capitalism is

00:21:42.880 the more people

00:21:43.340 we can disenfranchise

00:21:44.260 and exploit

00:21:44.820 for the few

00:21:45.660 but what will happen now

00:21:47.000 because we are now

00:21:47.620 becoming more enlightened

00:21:48.400 you have to then

00:21:49.100 allow more people

00:21:50.140 to become the few

00:21:51.540 so lots of black people

00:21:53.160 become the few

00:21:53.780 few women become the few

00:21:55.100 and it's still discriminated

00:21:56.260 against the masses

00:21:56.820 so the point I'm making

00:21:58.600 is that

00:21:59.020 once we get rid of

00:21:59.820 discrimination

00:22:00.460 racial discrimination

00:22:01.540 homophobia

00:22:02.220 and sexism

00:22:03.300 to name just a few

00:22:04.640 there are other dynamics

00:22:05.500 the vast majority

00:22:06.800 of black people

00:22:07.380 women and gay people

00:22:08.300 will still be exactly

00:22:09.140 where they are

00:22:09.720 but it won't be

00:22:10.920 because they're women

00:22:11.560 black or gay

00:22:12.320 it'll be other dynamics

00:22:13.240 then it'll be the way

00:22:14.740 the world should be

00:22:15.420 the people are willing

00:22:16.140 to get up and work hard

00:22:16.980 the people are willing

00:22:17.920 to go to school

00:22:18.840 the people are willing

00:22:19.320 to study

00:22:19.740 they will be rewarded

00:22:20.800 because at this moment

00:22:21.920 in time

00:22:22.360 as much as we say

00:22:23.100 that that is applicable

00:22:24.240 to everybody

00:22:24.760 it's not

00:22:25.120 because there are certain

00:22:25.800 black people

00:22:26.520 Bangladeshis

00:22:27.620 other people

00:22:28.200 who these opportunities

00:22:29.320 aren't afforded to

00:22:30.260 because of the negative

00:22:31.540 perception we have of them

00:22:32.520 no matter how hard

00:22:33.500 they work

00:22:33.920 and you will still have

00:22:35.580 many black people

00:22:36.420 Bangladeshis

00:22:36.960 women

00:22:37.280 who will get to the top

00:22:38.700 despite not being

00:22:39.780 given an opportunity

00:22:40.360 because of their innate

00:22:42.580 human qualities

00:22:43.360 and then they're used

00:22:44.380 as an example

00:22:45.720 that see

00:22:46.520 you can do it as well

00:22:47.340 because they did it

00:22:48.060 what we have to do

00:22:49.460 is provide an environment

00:22:50.320 for everybody to do it fairly

00:22:51.520 and still

00:22:52.560 the ones who are willing

00:22:53.260 to work hard

00:22:53.820 will then get there

00:22:54.620 rather than

00:22:55.460 the majority of people

00:22:56.280 that are up there

00:22:56.780 disproportionately

00:22:57.640 are white middle class men

00:23:00.140 and because they're

00:23:01.280 white middle class men

00:23:02.000 a lot of them

00:23:02.460 not all of them

00:23:02.920 of course

00:23:03.240 the majority of them

00:23:04.860 deserve to be there

00:23:05.800 but because we have

00:23:06.580 a perception

00:23:07.000 of that particular group

00:23:08.000 it is disproportionate

00:23:09.180 and productivity will go up

00:23:10.700 because you'll have

00:23:11.120 the right people

00:23:11.700 for the right job

00:23:12.420 see this is where

00:23:13.480 you're starting

00:23:13.900 to lose me a little bit

00:23:15.060 because it sounds

00:23:16.320 very utopian

00:23:17.120 when we get rid

00:23:18.700 of discrimination

00:23:19.280 when we get rid

00:23:20.320 no no no no

00:23:20.660 utopian means that

00:23:22.160 everything will be equal

00:23:23.500 that's utopian

00:23:24.380 I'm not saying

00:23:25.000 everything will be equal

00:23:25.600 I still say

00:23:26.260 the vast majority of people

00:23:27.440 still will be

00:23:28.500 working

00:23:29.760 in the inner cities

00:23:30.480 working jobs

00:23:31.340 and not being given

00:23:31.980 opportunities

00:23:32.480 but the opportunities

00:23:33.840 that they won't get

00:23:34.940 won't be because

00:23:35.840 that they're black

00:23:36.460 or because they're women

00:23:37.140 it'll be because

00:23:37.840 they're not prepared

00:23:38.520 to work hard

00:23:39.100 they're not clever enough

00:23:40.080 they're not intelligent enough

00:23:41.060 that's why the whole idea

00:23:42.280 of you know

00:23:44.040 this idea

00:23:46.480 that everything

00:23:46.980 has to be equal

00:23:47.620 from a political

00:23:48.900 point of view

00:23:49.540 that's why socialism

00:23:51.320 never worked

00:23:51.920 socialism can't work

00:23:53.100 in the modern age

00:23:53.720 because of course

00:23:54.280 there are people

00:23:54.700 who would want

00:23:55.260 always want to work

00:23:55.940 harder than somebody else

00:23:56.940 to be rewarded more

00:23:58.440 but if we're going to say

00:23:59.320 that you're not going

00:23:59.740 to be rewarded more

00:24:00.380 because everyone's

00:24:00.920 going to be the same

00:24:01.480 what's the point

00:24:01.960 of working harder

00:24:02.580 so we're not going

00:24:03.240 to be as productive

00:24:03.600 I'm from the Soviet Union

00:24:04.800 you don't need to tell me

00:24:05.800 exactly

00:24:06.100 yeah

00:24:06.560 flipping hell

00:24:07.920 you're Jewish

00:24:08.380 Russian

00:24:08.800 Greek

00:24:09.260 you're flipping everything

00:24:09.980 aren't you

00:24:10.300 you've got any Jamaican

00:24:10.920 in you

00:24:11.160 yes

00:24:12.240 so that's why

00:24:13.100 it doesn't work

00:24:13.480 and you can see

00:24:14.100 obviously Russia

00:24:14.980 and China now

00:24:15.540 they've got millionaires

00:24:16.140 and stuff like that

00:24:16.680 so I'm not saying

00:24:17.520 that we want everything

00:24:18.140 to be equal

00:24:18.580 but at this moment in time

00:24:19.660 what we're trying to sell

00:24:20.400 particularly black people

00:24:21.560 is that the reason

00:24:22.380 why you're not there

00:24:23.540 is because it's racism

00:24:24.760 now lots of black people

00:24:26.040 aren't there

00:24:26.580 because they're lazy

00:24:27.180 like white people are lazy

00:24:29.360 and everybody's lazy

00:24:30.200 but that's not what we're saying

00:24:31.320 that's not what we're saying

00:24:32.280 we're saying it's because of this

00:24:33.580 so I did a talk the other day

00:24:35.120 John hold on

00:24:35.800 hold on

00:24:36.080 you're saying a lot

00:24:38.100 of very interesting things

00:24:38.940 and I think

00:24:39.360 I just want to take one at a time

00:24:41.200 so

00:24:41.540 you

00:24:43.260 I'm not going to repeat

00:24:44.860 what you said

00:24:45.260 because I'll get

00:24:45.860 you'll get in trouble

00:24:46.940 a lot of black people

00:24:48.360 are lazy

00:24:48.720 is what you're saying

00:24:49.100 if you take that

00:24:49.940 in isolation

00:24:50.600 then of course

00:24:51.700 John Bond's

00:24:52.260 I know exactly what you meant

00:24:53.500 you don't edit this

00:24:54.600 but there you go

00:24:55.140 this is going out unedited

00:24:56.880 that's the point of the show

00:24:58.140 right

00:24:58.360 so you're not going to get

00:24:59.360 misrepresented out of this

00:25:00.440 well not by us anyway

00:25:01.360 but what I'm saying is

00:25:03.600 so you're saying

00:25:04.400 basically

00:25:05.160 racism isn't

00:25:07.020 what's stopping those people

00:25:08.240 from achieving

00:25:08.920 quite often

00:25:09.820 racism is what's stopping

00:25:10.820 some people from achieving

00:25:11.960 the people who are enamored

00:25:13.320 with those qualities

00:25:13.920 to be willing to get

00:25:14.980 to go to work

00:25:15.660 study hard

00:25:16.520 but the system

00:25:17.360 discriminates against them

00:25:18.700 and women

00:25:19.080 and other groups of people

00:25:19.880 they're going to be

00:25:21.100 the odd one of those

00:25:21.800 who despite all of that

00:25:22.800 will still make it

00:25:23.440 but there are lots of them

00:25:24.060 who won't make it

00:25:24.960 because the system

00:25:25.820 is designed to stop

00:25:26.700 them making it

00:25:27.360 how is the system

00:25:28.980 designed to stop them

00:25:29.980 John

00:25:30.180 because we live in a

00:25:31.600 capitalist world

00:25:32.120 and capitalism is about

00:25:33.060 the control of production

00:25:34.660 by a few people

00:25:36.000 and everybody else

00:25:36.900 does the work

00:25:37.340 and some people benefit

00:25:38.360 a minority benefits

00:25:40.020 right

00:25:40.360 so if you go back to

00:25:41.580 from a political point of view

00:25:43.640 China should have been

00:25:44.500 the first capitalist

00:25:45.240 China

00:25:46.340 it's in the book

00:25:47.200 I don't know if you've

00:25:47.580 got to that point yet

00:25:48.360 because before

00:25:49.520 Christopher Columbus

00:25:50.040 discovered America

00:25:50.740 there was a maritime leader

00:25:51.960 in China called Zheng He

00:25:53.040 who China

00:25:54.060 had bigger ships

00:25:55.580 than even have now

00:25:56.400 and they had more

00:25:57.760 they were stronger

00:25:58.660 militarily

00:25:59.320 from a scientific point of view

00:26:01.160 they were way ahead

00:26:01.900 of everybody else

00:26:02.620 and they were going to

00:26:04.200 they were trading in India

00:26:05.300 these are merchants

00:26:06.080 trading in India

00:26:06.880 trading in East Africa

00:26:08.120 this is before

00:26:08.840 Christopher Columbus even went

00:26:09.760 and what the government did

00:26:11.520 they recognised

00:26:12.240 that if we allow this

00:26:13.060 to continue

00:26:13.640 those merchants

00:26:14.640 will become

00:26:16.120 disproportionately

00:26:17.220 richer than the population

00:26:18.280 and then they will be able

00:26:19.680 to influence

00:26:20.240 the politics

00:26:21.140 which would mean

00:26:22.220 that they would become

00:26:22.940 even more richer

00:26:23.460 because they influenced

00:26:24.540 politics and policy

00:26:25.800 to the detriment

00:26:26.700 of the average person

00:26:27.760 so they burnt

00:26:28.500 every one of those ships

00:26:29.340 to stop that

00:26:30.260 because they knew

00:26:31.320 but what did we do in Europe

00:26:32.600 we did the opposite

00:26:33.440 so the merchants became powerful

00:26:34.640 so it became disproportionate

00:26:36.080 the wealth and the equality

00:26:37.180 became disproportionate

00:26:38.200 and that's what we have

00:26:39.120 to this day

00:26:39.600 now we can't go back

00:26:41.180 so it's not a question

00:26:41.980 of going back to socialism

00:26:42.820 or coming

00:26:43.280 because it doesn't work

00:26:43.980 as you can see in China

00:26:44.680 and India

00:26:45.020 but just to give you an example

00:26:46.320 of how capitalism is about

00:26:48.300 disproportionately discriminating

00:26:50.820 and exploiting

00:26:51.460 the masses for the few

00:26:52.460 and that's the world we live in

00:26:54.420 and we know where we want to be

00:26:55.540 all of us

00:26:56.060 but we're willing to work

00:26:57.240 hard to do so

00:26:57.920 right

00:26:58.260 so this is the point

00:26:59.500 which is why I use the word utopia

00:27:01.980 but I come back to this

00:27:03.440 because you know

00:27:04.440 we've had a lot of

00:27:05.280 behind you

00:27:05.900 there's Brett Weinstein

00:27:06.780 one of the world's

00:27:07.460 most prominent evolutionary biologists

00:27:09.060 we've had a bunch of them

00:27:10.100 on the show

00:27:10.560 are we ever going to live

00:27:13.100 in a society where

00:27:14.660 I mean we evolved

00:27:16.040 to live in hierarchies

00:27:17.500 right

00:27:17.780 that's what we evolved

00:27:18.720 to be

00:27:19.340 so are we ever going to get

00:27:21.200 to a point

00:27:21.800 when there aren't

00:27:22.980 a lot of people

00:27:23.600 a small number of people

00:27:24.840 at the top

00:27:25.420 who control

00:27:26.300 most of what happens

00:27:27.580 I doubt it

00:27:28.320 not in our lifetime

00:27:29.040 because there are people

00:27:30.420 who are always going to be willing

00:27:31.180 to work harder than others

00:27:32.160 and therefore they should be rewarded

00:27:33.420 but at this moment in time

00:27:34.860 it is unrealistic

00:27:35.820 in terms of the

00:27:37.000 the people we think

00:27:38.360 are more deserving

00:27:39.940 because of what we've been

00:27:40.860 conditioned to think

00:27:41.640 and going back

00:27:42.940 for 300 years

00:27:43.700 once we were then told

00:27:44.700 that to legitimize

00:27:46.120 slavery and colonialism

00:27:46.860 particularly

00:27:47.420 forget slavery

00:27:48.060 colonialism

00:27:48.540 that these group of people

00:27:49.760 are inferior to us

00:27:50.740 so therefore there's some people

00:27:52.120 who we have now

00:27:52.760 been conditioned to think

00:27:53.560 are inferior to us

00:27:54.120 there's a nice group

00:27:54.680 we can then discriminate against

00:27:56.000 without it necessarily

00:27:57.020 bothering everyone else

00:27:58.660 because

00:27:59.060 we know that they're inferior

00:28:00.880 and we know women are inferior

00:28:01.900 we wrongly know that

00:28:03.420 so therefore

00:28:04.060 if we condition our minds

00:28:05.060 whereby

00:28:05.500 the reality of who is inferior

00:28:07.520 and who is not

00:28:08.080 is just about

00:28:08.740 your own individual quality

00:28:10.120 then you'll see

00:28:11.180 lots of black people

00:28:11.700 lots of women

00:28:12.200 lots of gay people

00:28:13.440 lots of northerners

00:28:14.280 being in these positions

00:28:15.200 because they're willing

00:28:15.600 to work hard

00:28:16.140 and you'll still have

00:28:16.900 the same amount of people

00:28:17.660 being discriminated against

00:28:18.620 but then it'll be more

00:28:19.860 it'll be fairer

00:28:21.040 in terms of

00:28:21.740 the people we discriminate against

00:28:23.560 and I'm not saying

00:28:24.460 they deserve to be

00:28:25.200 discriminated against

00:28:25.980 because you have to look

00:28:26.620 at different issues

00:28:27.260 regarding geography

00:28:29.280 and where you're born

00:28:30.140 and when you're born

00:28:30.680 as to who is going

00:28:31.520 to be discriminated

00:28:31.940 because if the Greeks

00:28:32.840 had lost that war

00:28:33.600 all those years ago

00:28:34.820 against the Persians

00:28:37.140 you know

00:28:37.620 Europeans would have been

00:28:38.680 the ones who would be

00:28:39.360 the black people

00:28:40.160 if you like

00:28:40.560 and it's quite

00:28:44.180 a complex

00:28:44.900 way of looking at it

00:28:46.560 but that is what

00:28:47.100 we have to do

00:28:47.740 because the way

00:28:48.700 that we were convinced

00:28:49.580 in terms of racial hierarchy

00:28:50.820 and sexual hierarchy

00:28:51.580 was a very complex way

00:28:52.760 it's not stupid people

00:28:53.700 Lenius, Blumenbach

00:28:54.660 the most intelligent minds

00:28:55.720 sold us this lie

00:28:57.160 about characteristics

00:28:59.260 mental characteristics

00:29:00.720 moral characteristics

00:29:01.600 of different groups

00:29:02.340 of people

00:29:02.720 which was a lie

00:29:03.580 which have now been debunked

00:29:04.780 so even the idea

00:29:05.580 of race doesn't exist

00:29:06.400 there's no race

00:29:07.500 UNESCO passed a statement

00:29:08.860 in 55

00:29:09.240 that race biologically

00:29:10.580 and genetically

00:29:11.160 doesn't exist

00:29:11.820 unfortunately we're too far

00:29:13.020 now to start that conversation

00:29:14.180 because it's become

00:29:15.140 a reality on our own mind

00:29:16.100 but what we have to do

00:29:16.940 is now change

00:29:17.600 the perception

00:29:18.440 of the intellectual

00:29:20.840 and moral characteristics

00:29:22.340 that were put

00:29:22.980 on the races

00:29:23.700 so that being the case

00:29:26.420 number one

00:29:27.460 how do you do that

00:29:28.260 and number two

00:29:28.840 do you agree with quotas

00:29:30.120 do you agree with

00:29:30.880 that kind of system

00:29:31.840 no we deconstruct

00:29:32.780 what we've learned

00:29:33.340 that's how we do that

00:29:34.160 we deconstruct

00:29:34.900 what we've learned

00:29:35.300 so why do we feel

00:29:36.600 that white people are superior

00:29:37.660 no we don't

00:29:38.480 yes we do

00:29:38.900 because of what

00:29:39.500 every single day

00:29:40.040 and what does the media

00:29:40.540 say every single day

00:29:41.280 what does the media say

00:29:42.580 about Jamaican yardies

00:29:44.860 Nigerian drug dealers

00:29:45.900 Nigerian con men

00:29:47.820 Muslim terrorists

00:29:49.100 so that gives us

00:29:50.040 a negative perception

00:29:51.020 of terrorists

00:29:51.960 drug dealers and groomers

00:29:52.960 but also Muslims

00:29:53.700 Nigerians and Jamaicans

00:29:54.620 this is how we have

00:29:55.360 become conditioned

00:29:56.040 I push back against that

00:29:57.800 John because after Brexit

00:29:59.000 we were conditioned

00:30:00.120 to think the white

00:30:00.900 working class

00:30:01.500 was stupid

00:30:02.000 racist and whatever else

00:30:03.060 for voting

00:30:03.480 not after Brexit

00:30:04.160 they always thought

00:30:05.260 that

00:30:05.440 they always thought

00:30:07.240 that

00:30:07.520 and

00:30:07.820 and

00:30:08.440 and

00:30:08.860 and

00:30:09.140 not only did they

00:30:10.160 always think that

00:30:10.880 what they did

00:30:12.240 after Brexit

00:30:13.180 is they then said

00:30:14.380 like they said

00:30:15.120 to the white working

00:30:15.720 classes

00:30:16.040 the reason for your

00:30:16.700 discontent

00:30:17.220 Mr. white working

00:30:17.880 class man

00:30:18.360 is because these

00:30:19.260 foreigners are coming

00:30:19.920 here and they're

00:30:20.740 taking your benefits

00:30:21.520 and they're taking

00:30:22.280 your council houses

00:30:23.100 your shitty benefits

00:30:24.300 and shitty council houses

00:30:25.160 and working class people

00:30:26.320 went yeah we don't

00:30:26.860 want to come over

00:30:27.380 instead of thinking

00:30:28.420 we don't want more

00:30:29.360 we don't want them

00:30:30.000 we want more for

00:30:30.740 ourselves

00:30:31.140 so the reason for

00:30:32.180 our discontent

00:30:32.640 is them

00:30:33.000 so we hate you

00:30:33.680 then we're saying

00:30:34.480 to the to the to

00:30:35.360 the black people

00:30:35.860 and other people

00:30:36.580 the reason for your

00:30:37.220 discontent

00:30:37.780 is those white

00:30:39.140 working class

00:30:40.500 football fans

00:30:41.100 and eastern

00:30:41.720 european fans

00:30:42.440 of course they just

00:30:43.320 put us against each

00:30:44.000 other

00:30:44.220 like for example

00:30:45.960 women and black

00:30:47.200 people

00:30:47.480 black lives matter

00:30:48.200 so what do we have

00:30:48.940 on in the newspaper

00:30:49.960 um 10 years for

00:30:51.560 throwing a statue

00:30:52.080 in the river

00:30:52.440 but two years for

00:30:53.300 rape

00:30:53.560 what are women

00:30:54.640 supposed to think

00:30:55.140 then what are

00:30:55.820 the media trying to

00:30:56.380 do

00:30:56.580 women are going

00:30:57.160 to go black

00:30:57.760 lives matter

00:30:58.300 they're always

00:30:59.080 getting everything

00:30:59.460 they want

00:30:59.880 and it's only two

00:31:00.420 years for rape

00:31:00.920 they're putting us

00:31:01.400 against each other

00:31:02.000 and they've always

00:31:03.100 done that

00:31:03.540 divide and conquer

00:31:04.380 that's why the group

00:31:05.520 should be together

00:31:06.100 are disenfranchised

00:31:07.020 groups

00:31:07.340 and even when you

00:31:08.360 talk about

00:31:08.820 the the you speak

00:31:10.160 to football fans

00:31:10.840 and you say to

00:31:11.440 them you know

00:31:11.900 why are you

00:31:12.260 against taking

00:31:13.040 the knee

00:31:13.500 marxism

00:31:15.480 marxism

00:31:16.960 i don't know if

00:31:18.780 they know much

00:31:19.080 about marxism

00:31:19.660 i'm not saying

00:31:20.120 they're stupid

00:31:20.520 but i don't know

00:31:21.080 enough about

00:31:21.480 marxism to know

00:31:22.140 that but of

00:31:22.620 course

00:31:22.800 and i don't know

00:31:24.360 if they know

00:31:24.660 that white working

00:31:25.240 class people should

00:31:25.820 be marxist

00:31:26.380 marxism is about

00:31:27.700 protecting them

00:31:28.340 and their rights

00:31:29.000 and giving them

00:31:29.480 more equality

00:31:30.040 defunding the

00:31:32.760 police

00:31:32.960 i'm talking about

00:31:34.240 the essence of

00:31:34.760 what it was

00:31:35.220 of course it can

00:31:35.780 be but everything

00:31:36.220 can be changed

00:31:37.140 everything can be

00:31:37.780 changed look at

00:31:38.120 the labour party

00:31:38.700 on the is now

00:31:39.680 changing

00:31:40.060 yeah i suppose it

00:31:41.380 was so so i'm

00:31:42.800 talking about the

00:31:43.140 essence of it

00:31:43.700 so defunding the

00:31:45.760 police marx is not

00:31:47.480 about defunding

00:31:47.920 police marx is

00:31:49.180 about getting rid

00:31:49.600 of poverty if you

00:31:50.100 get rid of a

00:31:50.460 poverty there's less

00:31:51.340 crime less crime

00:31:52.140 you don't need as

00:31:52.840 much police and the

00:31:53.880 funds can be used for

00:31:54.480 something else to

00:31:54.960 help working class

00:31:55.480 people but of course

00:31:56.540 once you just talk

00:31:57.320 about it's about

00:31:57.800 defunding the police

00:31:58.400 which it isn't so

00:31:59.040 it's quite nuanced

00:31:59.740 and if people don't

00:32:00.840 understand that they

00:32:01.760 just go along with

00:32:02.600 what with what they

00:32:03.420 hear so um i suppose

00:32:06.440 that is where you look

00:32:07.100 at it from an elite and

00:32:07.900 a non-elite point of

00:32:08.660 view i think the elite

00:32:09.880 point of view is

00:32:10.380 interesting i mean i

00:32:11.120 take issue with the

00:32:11.960 marxism stuff because

00:32:13.200 um first of all i

00:32:15.780 there's a reason i said

00:32:16.600 it used to be i mean it

00:32:17.460 never worked in the

00:32:18.140 first place but it

00:32:19.100 could never work

00:32:19.500 because of man's

00:32:20.020 individual greed so i

00:32:21.020 understand that i'm

00:32:21.540 talking about the the

00:32:22.640 the philosophy behind it

00:32:23.840 you make the point in

00:32:24.700 the book about greed i

00:32:25.660 don't know i agree with

00:32:26.460 that either i think

00:32:27.180 well as i say i think

00:32:28.660 we evolved to live in

00:32:29.500 hierarchy and it's the

00:32:30.700 nature especially for

00:32:31.480 males uh but but for

00:32:33.020 everybody to seek status

00:32:34.260 in society and to seek

00:32:35.640 to advance their own law

00:32:36.820 and so we'll always be

00:32:38.520 uh we'll all we'll always

00:32:40.320 be striving when you

00:32:41.200 were on the football

00:32:41.780 field you wanted to win

00:32:43.160 yeah right and

00:32:43.900 everybody wants to win

00:32:44.840 at life everybody wants

00:32:45.800 to move up in the world

00:32:46.860 and that's why that's

00:32:48.260 why socialism doesn't

00:32:49.160 work it depends what

00:32:49.640 you mean i agree with

00:32:50.880 you but it depends what

00:32:51.580 you mean by evolution

00:32:52.260 evolution is very natural

00:32:53.340 the idea of wanting

00:32:54.780 more is not natural

00:32:55.600 that is not naturally

00:32:57.400 in us because if it

00:32:59.360 was naturally in us do

00:33:00.420 you want more than your

00:33:01.100 than your son or your

00:33:02.180 children would you have

00:33:02.900 more would you want more

00:33:03.540 food than your children

00:33:04.240 they have my genes and

00:33:05.280 the point of my life is

00:33:06.220 to pass my genes on to

00:33:07.620 them so that they can

00:33:08.500 pass their genes on so

00:33:09.480 using my children is

00:33:10.600 different do i want more

00:33:11.440 than you yes yes of

00:33:12.700 course but if it was

00:33:14.040 natural for us to want

00:33:14.760 more than everybody else

00:33:15.660 you would want more than

00:33:16.620 your children or your

00:33:17.200 cousins or whatever

00:33:18.060 richard dawkins talks

00:33:19.020 about this in the

00:33:19.620 selfish gene the purpose

00:33:20.760 of our life the way we're

00:33:22.720 driven by our genes to

00:33:23.660 reproduce our genes it's

00:33:24.840 not about john barnes or

00:33:26.240 constantin kissin or

00:33:27.140 francis foster it's the

00:33:28.340 genes that you carry

00:33:29.200 wanting to replicate

00:33:30.140 exactly so that's why

00:33:31.480 you don't want more than

00:33:32.220 your son but i think what

00:33:33.140 i'm saying is it's very

00:33:34.480 natural for us to want

00:33:35.660 more to want as high a

00:33:37.620 status as possible

00:33:38.460 especially for males and

00:33:40.060 to have as much resources

00:33:41.260 as possible especially for

00:33:42.280 males because males have a

00:33:43.880 much more status driven

00:33:44.880 instinct than women do

00:33:46.160 it's it's just the nature

00:33:47.940 of it that's how we have

00:33:49.380 become that's what we've

00:33:50.940 become because we've been

00:33:51.680 what you think is just

00:33:52.460 naturally in us it's how

00:33:53.500 we evolved you think so

00:33:54.540 yeah i do okay i mean

00:33:55.700 look we've we've had a

00:33:56.620 lot of evolutionary

00:33:57.220 biologists and

00:33:57.920 psychologists on the show

00:33:58.860 do you believe in race

00:33:59.540 i haven't that is

00:34:01.840 something i haven't i

00:34:03.340 don't know enough about

00:34:04.180 the evolutionary stuff i

00:34:05.400 feel pretty well schooled

00:34:06.620 on i don't understand

00:34:07.960 what you mean when you

00:34:08.880 say when you say race

00:34:10.960 isn't a thing yeah but

00:34:12.600 i'm open to hearing

00:34:13.280 argument on it yeah

00:34:14.260 well i mean if you read

00:34:15.120 a lot of geneticists

00:34:15.900 they'll tell you what

00:34:16.440 why does the race

00:34:17.520 because there are some

00:34:19.040 white northern europeans

00:34:20.640 who are genetically

00:34:21.640 closer to black west

00:34:23.000 africans than a black

00:34:24.940 west african to a black

00:34:25.660 east african not the

00:34:27.340 gene that makes them

00:34:27.900 black yeah but other

00:34:29.340 genes in terms of our

00:34:30.900 genetic makeup so why

00:34:31.900 aren't they the same

00:34:32.420 race because the gene

00:34:33.460 that makes us black is

00:34:34.120 the same as the gene

00:34:34.780 that makes someone who

00:34:35.440 have blue eyes and

00:34:36.040 brown eyes yeah so

00:34:36.820 why aren't the people

00:34:37.300 who have blue eyes a

00:34:37.940 different race to the

00:34:38.480 people have brown eyes

00:34:39.200 yeah why are they not

00:34:40.060 it's one other different

00:34:40.900 race but genetics is

00:34:42.460 sorry just on this very

00:34:43.660 point genetics is a

00:34:45.640 complicated one because

00:34:46.720 we judge race on

00:34:48.380 phenotype yeah on how

00:34:50.140 we look that's why

00:34:51.540 people would say you're

00:34:52.420 one race and i'm

00:34:53.220 another race yeah but

00:34:54.160 but a blue eyes is

00:34:55.120 different to a brown

00:34:55.680 eyes they look

00:34:56.120 differently so why is

00:34:57.200 it just the color of

00:34:58.260 the skin it's a good

00:34:59.220 point it is a good

00:35:00.140 point and that's why

00:35:01.260 geneticists and

00:35:01.920 biologists have always

00:35:02.640 said race does not

00:35:03.900 exist as we know it

00:35:05.300 because race before

00:35:06.120 that was always

00:35:06.980 cultural because you

00:35:08.380 had people of of as

00:35:09.940 long as you buy into

00:35:10.660 the political like if

00:35:11.840 you go back to the

00:35:12.280 Greeks you buy into the

00:35:13.420 political ideology then

00:35:15.040 you can be the same

00:35:15.640 race as them well

00:35:16.640 that's what i've always

00:35:17.380 said about this country

00:35:18.240 that's what i love about

00:35:19.240 britain which is the

00:35:20.680 idea and in some ways

00:35:21.940 america hasn't obviously

00:35:23.020 hasn't lived up to this

00:35:23.940 ideal in every way but

00:35:24.880 the idea is if you come

00:35:26.500 to america and you

00:35:28.360 integrate and you become

00:35:29.480 part of that society you

00:35:30.580 are an american doesn't

00:35:31.540 matter where you come

00:35:32.140 from doesn't matter what

00:35:32.920 you are now that's the

00:35:33.920 ideal we haven't lived

00:35:35.080 up to that admittedly

00:35:36.360 and the same with

00:35:37.140 britain as a foreigner

00:35:37.960 who came here like you

00:35:39.240 at the age of 13 or 12

00:35:40.420 or whatever it was i feel

00:35:41.880 like we can all be

00:35:43.160 british as long as we

00:35:44.200 stop looking each other

00:35:45.240 the country that the

00:35:46.180 country that espouses that

00:35:47.380 narrative more than

00:35:48.400 anyone is france not

00:35:49.480 britain because britain

00:35:50.600 says you can hold on to

00:35:51.440 your identity you don't

00:35:52.320 have to be british i i

00:35:53.760 resist that i resist yeah

00:35:55.460 but that's what britain

00:35:56.000 says i know i know

00:35:57.180 britain says that france

00:35:58.380 doesn't and i wish they

00:35:59.160 would because there is

00:35:59.840 no official consensus of

00:36:01.580 how many black people are

00:36:02.240 in france because they're

00:36:02.880 none because they're all

00:36:03.500 french or muslims because

00:36:04.860 they're all french so the

00:36:05.860 ideology after the french

00:36:06.860 revolution was that you're

00:36:07.560 all friends but the

00:36:08.040 reality is the same

00:36:08.680 it's different whereas in

00:36:09.680 england we don't do that

00:36:10.300 as much as you would like

00:36:11.280 that and you think that

00:36:12.000 that is not the case

00:36:12.760 here because here in

00:36:13.540 england we say hold on

00:36:14.280 to your identity and in

00:36:15.300 many respects you know

00:36:16.000 why because you'll never

00:36:17.580 be british you hold on

00:36:18.960 to your identity so think

00:36:20.040 about that when you think

00:36:20.800 how how together it is

00:36:21.780 and in america black

00:36:22.780 american i said why are

00:36:23.800 why do you talk about

00:36:24.740 black americans or native

00:36:25.940 americans because the the

00:36:27.460 idea of greatness is to be

00:36:29.260 american right yeah europe

00:36:32.240 they don't say european

00:36:33.100 american do they because

00:36:34.860 they consider themselves to

00:36:35.940 be american and that is

00:36:37.280 that is what we all want to

00:36:38.280 be so why does a black

00:36:39.540 american who is obvious

00:36:40.280 you're black so therefore

00:36:42.240 we know where your

00:36:43.120 forefathers would have

00:36:43.740 come from so why can't

00:36:44.660 you just say i'm an

00:36:45.180 american or a native

00:36:46.080 american in fact native

00:36:47.280 americans are the

00:36:47.960 americans they are the

00:36:49.260 americans the european

00:36:50.380 americans are european

00:36:51.060 american black americans

00:36:51.760 are black americans so in

00:36:53.080 many respects from an

00:36:53.700 american perspective it's

00:36:54.540 not even a question of

00:36:55.400 black or native it's about

00:36:57.080 or black or or any other

00:36:58.740 color or any other race

00:36:59.940 it is being an american

00:37:01.680 and if you look at black

00:37:03.200 americans their

00:37:04.500 americanness comes out when

00:37:06.280 they're with other black

00:37:07.060 people because of course

00:37:09.020 if all black people are

00:37:10.580 in a room and it's from

00:37:11.380 africa and jamaica and

00:37:12.620 when you're and you're a

00:37:13.540 black american you want

00:37:14.920 them to know you are an

00:37:15.660 american because an

00:37:17.800 american is superior to

00:37:19.420 other people so that is

00:37:20.620 when you become american

00:37:21.540 but when you're in

00:37:22.740 america you become black

00:37:24.000 american it's a very

00:37:26.540 interesting way of looking

00:37:27.580 at it it's it just seems

00:37:29.160 to me that we're having a

00:37:30.160 very reductive conversation

00:37:31.980 about race because so race

00:37:33.660 is complex and it's

00:37:34.600 nuanced so right so the

00:37:36.180 point i'm making is that

00:37:36.980 no point talking about

00:37:37.880 whether race exists or

00:37:38.600 not because as far as

00:37:39.480 we're concerned it does

00:37:40.180 so while this is a very

00:37:41.440 nuanced and complex way

00:37:42.760 of thinking and this is

00:37:43.520 the right way of thinking

00:37:44.320 if you really want to

00:37:44.900 deconstruct the whole idea

00:37:46.200 that racism doesn't exist

00:37:47.140 but we've gone too far to

00:37:48.580 even tell black people that

00:37:49.560 you're not black or white

00:37:50.360 people whatever right so

00:37:51.500 the point the whole point

00:37:53.240 about my book and this

00:37:54.860 whole discussion for me is

00:37:56.200 yes let's accept that race

00:37:57.460 exists as much as it does

00:37:58.480 let's accept it does

00:37:59.160 however what we have to

00:38:00.580 fight against are the

00:38:02.080 characteristics labeled to

00:38:03.660 certain races which were

00:38:04.840 lies and they're not

00:38:05.920 real and you use that

00:38:07.740 example in the book with

00:38:09.140 calling a black player

00:38:10.060 powerful and then using

00:38:11.140 the example of Adama

00:38:12.160 Traore or someone like

00:38:13.640 Didier Drogba and that

00:38:15.120 is a perfect way to

00:38:16.040 describe them they're

00:38:16.640 powerful players now i

00:38:17.700 understand because people

00:38:18.440 go you know because black

00:38:19.240 people have been called

00:38:19.800 lazy and be called just

00:38:21.020 their strength so you know

00:38:22.140 as if i saw and have

00:38:23.960 listened to commentators

00:38:24.900 talk and you can see

00:38:25.900 them you know pushing back

00:38:27.500 and they go they

00:38:28.400 recognize that they've

00:38:29.240 talked about they said

00:38:29.820 that's a very powerful run

00:38:31.100 by an intelligent as well

00:38:32.540 but i've got to put it

00:38:34.060 in and they have to put

00:38:34.920 it in and we've heard it

00:38:35.760 all the time and listen

00:38:36.480 it's just like look we

00:38:38.180 know what's going on so

00:38:39.000 why do we have to do

00:38:39.800 that because i know i know

00:38:41.600 the historic perception of

00:38:43.960 black people slaves

00:38:45.140 whatever you want to talk

00:38:45.860 about we have to change

00:38:46.920 that perception and

00:38:48.340 changing the perception

00:38:49.120 isn't elevating black

00:38:50.320 people out of that

00:38:51.080 negative space because

00:38:52.300 some black men and in

00:38:53.760 fact quite a lot of lots

00:38:54.940 of black men are jet

00:38:56.040 black with big lips and

00:38:57.340 a round head so are we

00:38:59.260 now trying to say that's

00:39:00.040 not what black people are

00:39:00.760 like because when we see

00:39:01.640 that figure we go you

00:39:02.480 know not all black

00:39:03.080 people are like that

00:39:03.560 why are they showing

00:39:04.060 that but if they show up

00:39:05.220 an image of john barnes

00:39:06.580 light skin thinner lips

00:39:07.580 no one will go not all

00:39:08.960 black men are like that

00:39:09.620 some of them have got

00:39:10.200 big lips and black skin

00:39:11.160 we won't do that because

00:39:12.680 we are ashamed of that

00:39:14.300 image and that's what we

00:39:15.340 have to do as black

00:39:15.920 people get away from that

00:39:17.160 image i mean i've got in

00:39:19.000 the book and it's in we

00:39:19.900 call it in jamaica right

00:39:21.260 in the emancipation park

00:39:22.220 where i have penis park

00:39:23.160 there's a statue of the

00:39:25.380 slaves who came to jamaica

00:39:26.460 now if you look at

00:39:27.620 apollo belvedere and you

00:39:28.740 look at the greek

00:39:29.560 statues of a thousand

00:39:32.660 years ago and it is

00:39:34.120 about their beauty and

00:39:35.580 it is about their

00:39:36.880 intelligence so while

00:39:37.980 they're sculptured and

00:39:38.720 never mind what they

00:39:39.360 look like you can see

00:39:40.340 that this is because they

00:39:41.440 make them with obviously

00:39:42.260 very little you know or

00:39:43.620 sometimes they have none

00:39:44.240 because that's not what's

00:39:44.820 important the importance

00:39:45.840 of their beauty their

00:39:46.980 their their intelligence

00:39:48.200 that's what this is about

00:39:49.220 in penis park the big

00:39:50.500 black slave they've made

00:39:51.700 him with a that big

00:39:53.400 which people are like why

00:39:55.080 do we have to then show

00:39:57.920 that you know okay we

00:40:00.020 are i've got bigger dicks

00:40:01.100 than than everybody else

00:40:02.240 for our masculinity

00:40:03.220 because this is how we

00:40:04.920 have been conditioned to

00:40:06.100 think we have been

00:40:06.840 dehumanized to then be

00:40:07.980 reduced to just being seen

00:40:09.840 as a physical specimen and

00:40:12.160 that's what we have to get

00:40:12.940 away from ourselves before

00:40:14.320 white people can get away

00:40:15.280 from seeing us us in that

00:40:16.820 way we have to get away

00:40:17.660 from seeing us that way

00:40:18.600 ourselves so when we see a

00:40:20.820 caricature if it's a

00:40:22.240 caricature and a caricature is

00:40:23.900 a black man with a big

00:40:25.240 lips and a black face why

00:40:26.660 is that racist because

00:40:27.400 some black men have big

00:40:28.380 lips and black faces and

00:40:29.160 I know the history of

00:40:30.400 slavery and colonialism

00:40:31.200 when you know the black

00:40:32.660 man was dehumanized to

00:40:33.720 look whatever but but we

00:40:35.060 we ourselves have to get

00:40:36.120 away from that

00:40:36.660 John do you think this is

00:40:38.540 something that worries me

00:40:39.360 quite a lot and I think I

00:40:41.380 don't know whether you'd

00:40:41.980 agree with me but I feel

00:40:42.880 like you're talking about

00:40:44.520 the same thing I feel like

00:40:45.660 you know when I was

00:40:46.940 growing up my parents

00:40:48.080 brought me up to treat

00:40:49.080 everybody the same way

00:40:50.060 and my greatest hero when

00:40:52.060 I was a kid was Michael

00:40:52.960 Jordan like I was a huge

00:40:55.540 fan of his I played

00:40:56.260 basketball not very well

00:40:58.060 but I did I loved Michael

00:40:59.940 Jordan he was an

00:41:00.500 inspirational man he was

00:41:01.640 an inspirational player he

00:41:02.560 was he was brilliant in

00:41:03.720 every way it never

00:41:05.160 occurred to me that he

00:41:06.340 was quote-unquote a

00:41:08.080 different race it never

00:41:09.860 occurred to me and I

00:41:11.800 worry that the way we're

00:41:12.820 having these conversations

00:41:13.860 now my children they

00:41:16.180 might look up and see a

00:41:17.400 LeBron James or whoever

00:41:18.520 the current superstars in

00:41:20.060 the Giannis Antetokounmpo

00:41:21.300 whoever it is I don't

00:41:22.780 think they'll be able to

00:41:23.520 notice Giannis Antetokounmpo

00:41:25.440 thank you yeah because I

00:41:26.860 always try to say second

00:41:27.660 name I just want to make

00:41:28.440 sure you said it right

00:41:29.000 yeah I'm a big basketball

00:41:30.300 fan

00:41:30.400 I just go Giannis

00:41:30.800 Antetokounmpo

00:41:31.680 Antetokounmpo but I

00:41:35.960 don't know that my

00:41:36.880 children will be able to

00:41:38.680 have that pure experience

00:41:40.000 of admiring another man

00:41:41.480 without thinking that

00:41:43.360 they've noticed what you've

00:41:44.740 said doesn't exist which is

00:41:46.080 his race yeah do you worry

00:41:48.460 about that no what I worry

00:41:50.380 about is when people may

00:41:52.980 convince themselves in

00:41:54.440 terms of you know not

00:41:55.540 seeing color not seeing

00:41:56.160 race and and and they just

00:41:57.480 look at and we're having

00:41:58.700 it now in football whereby

00:41:59.840 what we've actually said

00:42:00.860 and I think the European

00:42:01.680 Championship proved that

00:42:02.800 that when Gareth Southgate

00:42:04.520 talks about this new

00:42:05.520 diverse England football

00:42:07.380 team and I remember in

00:42:08.220 1984 playing in a game

00:42:09.600 where they had five black

00:42:10.320 players on the pitch and

00:42:11.100 since then we've had five

00:42:12.040 and six and seven black

00:42:12.800 players playing for England

00:42:13.800 so why now all of a sudden

00:42:15.020 this is the new diverse

00:42:15.780 England football team as if

00:42:17.160 black players hadn't

00:42:17.620 played before and before

00:42:18.860 they missed those

00:42:19.380 penalties everything was

00:42:20.280 okay and as soon as

00:42:21.340 they missed penalties so

00:42:22.500 what you're actually saying

00:42:23.180 is and the people you

00:42:23.760 admire obviously are

00:42:24.820 successful black black

00:42:27.020 people that's not what

00:42:28.600 we have to do we don't

00:42:29.600 have to look at

00:42:30.060 successful black people

00:42:30.820 and convince ourselves

00:42:31.520 that you know we're

00:42:32.560 either not racially biased

00:42:33.300 because we love these

00:42:33.880 successful black people

00:42:34.760 what about if they're

00:42:35.760 not successful what

00:42:36.400 happens then because of

00:42:37.420 course we love Sterling

00:42:38.160 and Rashford and

00:42:38.660 everybody before they

00:42:39.280 miss the penalties as

00:42:40.200 soon as they miss the

00:42:40.700 penalties you see what

00:42:41.580 society thinks of them

00:42:42.460 a section of society

00:42:43.680 thinks of them and

00:42:44.580 that's what we have to

00:42:45.140 change stop looking for

00:42:46.680 brilliant black people to

00:42:47.400 say things are changing

00:42:48.200 because we're looking up

00:42:49.000 to these brilliant black

00:42:49.620 people we have to change

00:42:50.800 the perception of the

00:42:51.860 average black person down

00:42:52.800 below that's when we

00:42:53.760 really get rid of racial

00:42:54.860 bias because it's very

00:42:56.160 easy Margaret Thatcher the

00:42:57.380 first female prime

00:42:58.040 minister has things

00:42:58.700 changed for women no

00:43:00.080 Cressida dick now she's

00:43:02.300 having a hard time after

00:43:03.100 the Sarah Everard problem

00:43:04.400 because she's a woman she

00:43:05.480 can't change anything

00:43:06.160 within that system because

00:43:07.520 just putting elite people

00:43:08.620 in power or loving elite

00:43:09.620 people Michael Jordan you

00:43:10.780 have to look at the

00:43:11.340 average black person

00:43:12.280 because when they look at

00:43:13.300 the average or the black

00:43:14.840 failure and they say you

00:43:16.720 know black can black

00:43:17.520 people be good enough

00:43:18.200 because they failed at

00:43:18.980 that how many white

00:43:19.900 failures have there been

00:43:20.720 but no one thinks that

00:43:22.260 white people generally

00:43:23.300 will fail because the

00:43:24.160 individual has failed but

00:43:24.980 we do that with blackness

00:43:25.740 so when I see people who

00:43:26.680 love brilliant black

00:43:28.240 people

00:43:28.640 you're talking about me

00:43:29.820 mate

00:43:29.960 I'm not talking about

00:43:30.560 you're not talking

00:43:31.060 I'm not talking about

00:43:32.180 Justin Trudeau

00:43:32.820 I'm not talking about

00:43:33.340 him but this is how we

00:43:35.280 have to recondition our

00:43:36.100 mind

00:43:36.380 look at the average black

00:43:37.420 person walking down the

00:43:38.160 street smoking a split

00:43:38.940 and he's got his jeans

00:43:39.660 around his arse

00:43:40.120 his dreadlocks and say

00:43:40.920 yes I see him as equal

00:43:41.740 because you know when you

00:43:42.720 talk about even white

00:43:43.780 people who say they

00:43:44.300 don't see some white

00:43:45.160 people I have to stop

00:43:46.520 saying white people

00:43:47.060 some white people like

00:43:47.840 some black people who

00:43:49.040 say they don't see

00:43:49.560 everyone we see

00:43:50.480 everyone as equal yeah

00:43:51.900 we see everyone as

00:43:52.440 an equal there's only

00:43:53.280 two possibilities how

00:43:54.260 they see people as

00:43:55.040 equal because we all

00:43:56.140 see ourselves in a

00:43:57.060 particular space in the

00:43:58.160 world up there

00:43:59.700 Donald Trump see

00:44:00.500 some of them people

00:44:01.300 wherever we see

00:44:02.100 ourselves and we see

00:44:03.060 so we see black people

00:44:03.900 as equal when we say

00:44:04.740 we see black people as

00:44:05.900 equal not a black

00:44:06.560 person black people we

00:44:09.640 see ourselves in a

00:44:10.260 particular space we

00:44:11.620 either because we know

00:44:13.580 where the perception of black people are which is generally down below white people we either bring

00:44:17.160 them up to our level to see them as equal if some white people or we bring ourselves down to their

00:44:22.920 level to see them as equal and which one do you think it normally is it normally is elevating

00:44:27.880 them to a level where you see them as equal so why do you have to elevate them to see them as equal

00:44:32.180 where is your unconscious perception of them to begin with so they'll even talk about we see them

00:44:35.940 as equal is really rising them up above to where the general perception of them well john let me

00:44:40.480 disagree with you since you alluded to it to me saying i i was inspired by michael john i didn't

00:44:45.960 say that i was my parents brought me up to see everybody's equal my parents brought me up to

00:44:51.020 treat everybody as if they're my equal there's a difference i'm not claiming that i see a guy

00:44:56.680 with his pants down smoking a spliff as my equal yeah whatever their skin color yeah to me that's

00:45:03.200 a different issue entirely if someone is smoking a spliff in the middle of the street and they've

00:45:07.220 got their pants around the ankles it doesn't really matter to me what the race is that's a

00:45:10.760 different issue but my point is i was brought up to treat everybody equally and now i feel like the

00:45:16.920 conversation has moved away from that and we're having a different conversation and what i was

00:45:21.680 getting at is do you think that's constructive well the narrative from a lot of black people

00:45:27.600 i put black elite is that i don't care how you see me i care how you treat me now you've just said

00:45:32.260 you've been brought up to treat everybody as yeah if you don't see everybody as equal you're not going

00:45:36.520 to treat them as equal it's impossible for you to treat them as equal if you don't see them as equal

00:45:40.440 you may be forced to in your job or in situations but if you don't see them as equal there are always

00:45:45.300 going to be ways to make you not treat them equally after a while so if we turn it around and say we care

00:45:52.120 how we see people and as long as we then see them as equal there'll be no reason for us to treat

00:45:56.660 them unequally so the whole idea which we've been doing for years and years after the american civil war

00:46:01.060 we had black senators black people got the vote mainly because white northern americans wanted

00:46:05.280 to disenfranchise southern americans and got more votes to disenfranchise but then after 20 years

00:46:09.400 they realized they're going to have to deal with these white southerners and we have to be on an

00:46:12.180 equal level because we saw them as equal so then the jim crow laws came in and we've been trying to

00:46:16.340 treat black people as equal ever since rather than seeing them as equal and that has never worked

00:46:20.680 never worked we have to change our perceptions switch it around to seeing people as equal so this whole

00:46:25.600 thing about let's treat people as equal for example at football matches you used to be able to go

00:46:30.260 now you can't do that anymore can you you can't do that anymore but if a black player came to take

00:46:35.320 a throne and i scratch my armpit you know what i'm doing don't you but you call the referee or the

00:46:40.240 police and i say to him i'm scratching my armpit mr policeman is it illegal to scratch your armpit

00:46:43.840 let's make armpits scratching illegal okay we'll boo can we boo every time a black player gets the ball

00:46:48.760 yes we can we know what you're doing you're not making a monkey noise let's make booing illegal we'll clap

00:46:53.960 there's always going to be a way around so we have to stop thinking about treating people as equal

00:46:58.680 first we have to see them as equal then there'll be no laws necessary to treat them as equal

00:47:03.180 and how do you see people as equal surely that is how we see people as equal is we have to say why do

00:47:08.220 we see them as unequal to begin with and how we see them as equal to begin with because the way we

00:47:12.260 have been conditioned to think about them and that's what we have to deconstruct because it's

00:47:16.140 not natural to wake up and think i'm better than a woman of course if it's going to be a physical

00:47:20.340 confrontation fine but in terms of managing a fortune 500 company or a black person's ability to think

00:47:25.480 or let's go to war who would i rather go to war with a gay guy or a skinhead with tattoos because

00:47:31.620 have we been conditioned to think so this is the and unfortunately the solution is not to put black

00:47:37.280 people into positions of power necessarily because that's what we say as black people because we have

00:47:41.340 to make decisions so what will happen is that dr tony seal will be put in a position of power

00:47:44.680 to talk about the the racial disparities within the within the system and he's come back and said

00:47:50.520 there's no systemic racism now if a white man said that we'd go oh no it's because white people

00:47:55.100 but we wanted a black man up there and he said the same thing so what are we going to do we can't

00:47:58.720 complain can we well talking about tony we've had him on the show twice we've had tony on the show

00:48:03.380 twice and did he talk about this with him yeah yeah we talked about the racial he said there's no

00:48:06.780 systemic racism no he didn't actually he he said that the report didn't say there was no systemic

00:48:10.920 racism the report pointed out areas where there needs more investigation right now so the report

00:48:18.080 may not have said that that was reported what he actually said in the report is that there are

00:48:21.720 incidents of racism not systemic racism yeah yeah and what have i said incidents of racism in football

00:48:28.720 matches so that's not systemic racism in football matches where someone throws a banana on the field

00:48:33.280 because that does not affect that footballer's life generally it affects him for 90 minutes if he feels

00:48:38.020 disenfranchised yeah so by then saying there are incidents of racism who is he supporting black

00:48:46.100 footballers elite black actors can't get oscars elite now systemic racism who does that affect

00:48:51.520 black people in the cities they've got no voice they've got no control they've got no power

00:48:55.260 so therefore if he was going to attack the system of which he's a part of maybe boon wouldn't be

00:49:01.960 where he is well hold on you're being unfair to tony so i'm going to defend them or francis you can

00:49:06.560 defend them if you want right right so when he was talking about that he was also talking about

00:49:12.720 things that affected black people and talked about in a very honest way for instance a statistic that

00:49:18.300 i found shocking and horrifying is the fact that a black man is 24 times more likely to be murdered

00:49:23.780 than a white man and to me the fact that we're not talking about that is an example for me of racism

00:49:29.620 because what that is saying is oh they're not worthy to be discussed then we're not discussing

00:49:34.120 this statistic that's not a footballer though is it no no no no but he also talked about class a lot

00:49:39.400 but who is talking about the where i don't see any of that out in out in out for discussion he's

00:49:43.520 talking about that here on this program why wasn't that in the report it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't

00:49:47.540 that was a big part of the so isn't that part of systemic racism well well his argument is it's

00:49:53.480 you talked about culture before right it's partly culture it's partly he would i'm sure would in fact

00:49:59.800 i remember him saying uh it was partly to do with the legacy of people who came here and were

00:50:05.060 disenfranchised when they did so there's a distrust of police there's a distrust of the

00:50:09.020 authorities which contributes to a lack of fathers in the home in particular communities that's a big

00:50:13.960 part of it and the main point this is why i think you tell you and tony would actually get on

00:50:17.980 he talked about the class issue yeah there's a big class dimension to this of course there is and

00:50:23.260 that's his argument but there still is systemic racism which the report says there is not well

00:50:28.340 i'd love you to have that conversation you would get on with tony a lot better than you think yeah

00:50:32.340 i'm sure i would no no no i'm sure i would but did he did he say there's no systemic racism no he

00:50:37.500 didn't so why was that in the report because the well you know the media come on there you go

00:50:41.440 so i can only go from what i see in the media yeah so yeah so he would say there's systemic racism so

00:50:46.320 why do you need to come out he would not say there is or isn't systemic racism their conclusion was

00:50:51.400 they didn't find evidence of there being systemic racism but they did find a lot of areas where there

00:50:57.280 was disenfranchisement disenfranchisement for individuals right they're not systemic but but

00:51:01.560 that's the problem this is the biggest problem okay because once again you you can what racism can

00:51:09.000 improve the banana coming on the field the overt racist that's not what's stopping people they

00:51:14.960 talked about disparities in education disparities in health so why hasn't anything been done about

00:51:19.080 that i mean they that's not up to tony no no no it's not up to tony but the point i'm making is that

00:51:24.040 yeah but because you you you can arrest um not white working class football fans or do whatever

00:51:29.580 stop them going in the the racism the sexism the homophobia you can't prove why don't women report

00:51:34.680 lots of rapes and sexual abuse because the system is designed to protect men that's why women will

00:51:39.380 tell you that we are men we're gonna go oh no no no no no no no aren't we because that's what men do

00:51:43.800 so the system discriminates against women when it comes to sexual abuse the system discriminates

00:51:49.820 the system discriminates against black people it does some black people well black people

00:51:54.800 generally not the ones who can get themselves out of it or the elite black people so that's the point

00:51:58.240 i'm making what that report says if you can point the finger at inconsequential people yeah the the

00:52:04.080 sexist who shouts an abuse or or the rapist or the man who kills a woman but the system still

00:52:09.360 discriminate against them and that is why you cannot change things from within you cannot be part of

00:52:13.360 the system and change it and the biggest example of that and it's in the book the esl european super league

00:52:17.220 liverpool real madrid barcelona all of these top clubs they are the most powerful clubs in uefa

00:52:23.520 why do so why don't they change it because they know we can't change things for ourselves within

00:52:28.380 that existing system so we have to leave it that's how the premier league started liverpool arsenal

00:52:32.480 everton when they were a big club can you believe that liverpool arsenal everton hold anton man united

00:52:39.400 man city and chelsea weren't there they wanted more for themselves and they knew they had to leave

00:52:44.360 the football league or the football league controlled it so that's why you can't change

00:52:47.100 from within system so why do we believe that three percent black people three percent that we can get

00:52:51.560 a few of us into the system and it'll change for everybody else we can't do it we can't do it and

00:52:57.700 but i do want to go back to that point about and i want to get your take on it because to me i found

00:53:02.600 that very upsetting i was a teacher and i used to work down the road in newham and i used to see you

00:53:08.560 know kids get getting involved in gangs there was one boy who when he left my primary school he came

00:53:14.120 back to see me and we were talking and i was saying how are you doing it affects white working class

00:53:18.460 kids yeah yeah yeah not just a race thing yeah absolutely but that statistic is that statistic

00:53:22.920 john it's horrifying why are we not having an honest conversation about it because the conversation

00:53:27.460 we're having is about eastern european fans that's the problem with racism right and and people on

00:53:32.140 twitter abusing football players for missing penalties yeah that's why we're not doing anything about it

00:53:36.120 and that's why i say if the elite black people like footballers and marcus and i'm start what

00:53:41.180 did marcus rashford do to change that imagine if more footballers were to talk about yes it's bad

00:53:45.160 in eastern europe whatever but the most important thing we have to do is change what's going on in

00:53:48.720 our inner cities because marcus rashford was no racial thing it was on a privilege so if you

00:53:52.560 imagine if more footballers were the platform and the clown because he knows that politicians would be

00:53:55.640 afraid to go against footballers particularly when they're doing one that's what we should do as

00:53:58.340 black players wait till they score a hat trick then come out and say something because if you miss a penalty

00:54:01.420 you've got no clout then so that's what they should do use their voice to talk about people

00:54:05.860 less fortunate themselves and we started the conversation talking about me as a 17 year old

00:54:09.600 and i noticed the inequality not for me because i lived in highgate and mayfair and my dad was a

00:54:15.200 diplomat and i've got bananas on the field okay but i noticed the fact that what black people were

00:54:19.940 going through back then and nobody spoke for them and now we're having and nobody could i couldn't

00:54:24.240 because then people go just get on with it you're playing the race whatever whereas now we have an

00:54:27.700 opportunity to really make a tangible difference unless the tangible difference isn't banning

00:54:32.340 hungary from you from from uefa the tangible difference is what marcus rashford did for what's

00:54:36.640 going on in our inner cities and that's what we have to do and you think more people need to stand

00:54:40.160 up and more people need to speak about this but isn't there the problem john where if you see people

00:54:44.860 getting cancelled if you see people you know getting dragged over the coals for using the word

00:54:49.360 colored instead of absolutely we're never going to be able to be anywhere now of course that's a

00:54:53.760 different subject in terms of from a wide perspective being able to have the honest conversation

00:54:57.440 no matter how we truly feel even if we talk about the perception that we have and the illusion we

00:55:02.000 have that our black players can really make a difference

00:55:03.900 they're taking a knee for racial discrimination i haven't heard sky bt any black player having a

00:55:12.660 meaningful discussion as to why there are very few black managers once again we have to be careful who

00:55:17.600 you who you criticize it's okay to criticize eastern europe why are there no black managers and it's

00:55:22.400 because of the unconscious bias i had a conversation with a female journalist funnily enough

00:55:25.520 and she says why do you know black managers i said there are only two reasons one because black

00:55:30.900 players who want to be managers are mainly unconsciously discriminated against if a black

00:55:37.220 man gets a job with any club everyone at that club wants him to do well every fan because you love your

00:55:42.120 club you love your club that's that's that's how beautiful football is you want to do well but when

00:55:46.980 he he will be given less time to fail than a white manager because if he loses a few matches put it this

00:55:52.380 way if it was our teta i said same thing about klopp for the first three years and he talked

00:55:55.200 and it's not personal to klopp or teta if a black man was in that job they lose their job quicker

00:55:59.920 because of the perception we have of their worth to begin with so i'm not accusing any fans of being

00:56:04.300 racist and it's you know it's unconscious bias so i said either because there's an unconscious bias

00:56:08.980 towards your ability before you see them perform and if they perform and they don't win all the games

00:56:13.420 and they will lose a few games white managers are going to get the sack 100 but they will be given

00:56:17.660 longer or they're not good enough because of the color of their skin so when anyone asks a question

00:56:24.120 oh can black men make good managers that is a racist question because it presupposes that he can't be a

00:56:29.020 manager because of the color of his skin is that a possibility so she said no there's another another

00:56:33.520 possibility i said what is that he goes well maybe they don't want to be managers she's a female

00:56:37.540 sports journalist i said you could be right just like women don't want to be sports journalists do they

00:56:41.600 because that's what they say to women and women say of course we do why are you why are you saying

00:56:45.880 that so what is it so why aren't we having this discussion and i'll tell you because it's and i'll

00:56:51.920 tell you why it's so obvious it's because of the perception we have of black people generally in

00:56:55.180 terms of their ability to think because no matter how good you are as a footballer once you finish

00:56:58.480 playing football then you become a black person and what do we feel about your intellectual and moral

00:57:02.720 capabilities and that's what management is in terms of your intellect so there are not many black

00:57:06.720 managers so another group of discriminated against managers are white english managers

00:57:11.260 not in the lower divisions and and the bottom 14 teams in the premier league ask the liverpool

00:57:17.000 man united chelsea they all lose their job tomorrow there's not one white english manager is going to

00:57:20.540 get that job because the perception is foreign managers are better and that's so when a foreign

00:57:25.380 manager gets a job and no one's ever heard of him no one bats an eyelid give eddie how the job

00:57:29.660 at man united give him three games to lose and see what actually happens so we understand that his

00:57:34.960 perception of even white and white is supposed to be superior but because they're english and

00:57:39.320 it's a negative perception of english managers if that's very obvious why is it so hard to even

00:57:43.120 believe that and we know the history of of the perception of black people that black managers

00:57:47.940 aren't being given jobs because of their color now after all of that why aren't they talking about that

00:57:52.840 black players one black player spoke about it got ostracized danny rose so why are all these

00:57:57.500 talk taking the knee talk about eastern europeans why aren't we having this conversation

00:58:00.740 is this the elephant in the room 30 black players

00:58:04.180 and the black managers once again these are the nuances around discrimination and how we've been

00:58:09.720 conditioned to think the black managers are given jobs are foreign black managers patrick vieira

00:58:14.480 nuna spirita in the premier league at the clubs because we have a perception that oh they're foreign

00:58:19.360 oh no they're black but not the black english ones they're more in pet they speak three languages

00:58:22.860 they're from europe they're more intelligent why because of the perception we have of them

00:58:27.180 eric cantina trawlers and seagulls philosopher philosopher let paul merson say that and see

00:58:34.100 what we think well he's caught in the accent so that is funny but john let me ask you this because

00:58:40.500 you've been very honest about how you feel about these things and i'll be honest with you about how

00:58:46.080 i think a lot of white people feel about this as well you talk about marcus rashford i would argue

00:58:50.620 that one of the reasons his campaign has been so successful is that he hasn't made a racial

00:58:55.180 and so it makes it a lot easier for white people to go well i'll support that because it's not

00:59:01.380 racial that's my point but some things are racial yeah so you have to pick and choose what's racial

00:59:05.860 and what's absolutely agreed but i guess what i'm saying is it do you not think uh that for issues

00:59:12.700 where race may be a factor but it's not necessarily the main factor yeah in issues which are much more

00:59:18.820 to do with people's socioeconomic so like you you know we're about to move out of the studio but

00:59:22.820 people won't know this but outside there's a council estate right and i walk through this

00:59:27.400 council estate if i spend 10 minutes in that environment i can feel the ambition draining out

00:59:31.460 i've seen in your i've seen in your offices in mayfair so i'm pretending now i wish i wish but you know

00:59:37.160 what i mean right you're in your child completely so so what i'm saying is do you not think that it's

00:59:42.780 much more effective on issues that are about socioeconomics to bring everybody together and to

00:59:48.200 say this ain't about your skin color this is about the fact that you're poor that you don't have a dad

00:59:53.900 in the house so you've got terrible teachers right etc so this is what has been happening because of

00:59:58.280 course if you want allies if you want allies yeah and it has to be white allies yeah you can't get

01:00:04.240 allies by claiming everything is racist and of course the system is quite happy for you to do that

01:00:09.020 because the system doesn't want to change so therefore when you then put label everything as racial

01:00:15.760 when things are racial people go oh there they go again and you go well hang on a second this one is

01:00:19.580 oh you've said that before you cry wolf too often yeah i'll give you lots of examples so um when

01:00:24.140 pierce morgan on gmb comes out and he says and it's in the press that oh look at it now they're talking

01:00:30.060 about this race is because the white chess piece moves first before the black one anybody who would

01:00:34.020 be our ally i'm going oh there they go again and of course the system is quite happy for that to

01:00:37.840 happen when you have a situation and of course you then have white militant black militants who are quite

01:00:42.380 happy to go along with that which turns the majority of good people yeah although they may

01:00:46.760 have a shallow understanding but they're still good people against it i have a situation whereby and

01:00:50.980 it's in the book and and about a a professor in in uh ivy league american school having a

01:00:57.000 class a debate on pause sounds in between language pause sounds in between language are as we're talking

01:01:03.820 now we go uh um uh uh those those sounds that we make in between language and in mandarin

01:01:09.620 it's nega n-e-i-g-e sounds like we know what it sounds like and my son who's a doctor he has a

01:01:15.480 doctor colleague which is from china and she's speaking to her parents and he hears he hears her

01:01:20.060 saying it she's speaking mandarin every now and then she goes nega nega nega and then he goes what

01:01:24.540 are you saying it's a pause it's a pause sound right so so it sounds funny now this has probably

01:01:30.160 been going on for thousands a year in china because i spoke before we could even speak over here but

01:01:33.120 anyway so this is a sound they make and in the class about pause sounds in between he says in

01:01:37.160 mandarin they have this sound five black students get up and walk out and he gets suspended because

01:01:41.300 it sounds like that so of course people are going to go here we go the same thing with liam neeson

01:01:45.840 the same thing with the the fourth official from romania who says alan negru the black guy there's

01:01:50.560 nothing wrong with saying the black guy so the point is is that when he's really serious but then all

01:01:54.480 of a sudden yeah you play all of those cards it then waters it down and people go there they go

01:01:58.560 playing the race card again and that is why as i said i get so much stick from the from a lot of some

01:02:03.000 black people who say you're saying nothing is racist and some white people saying everything is racist

01:02:06.180 but the problem is is the examples that you've just used they're just very superficial it's saying

01:02:13.320 a word that sounds like another word but actually having the discussion where you have to dig deep

01:02:17.900 and you have to share and you have to think and it has nuance and there aren't easy answers

01:02:21.820 people don't want to do that because it's difficult and it's hard and it takes time and

01:02:26.640 there's no easy answers to it and the system is quite happy for those conversations not to be had

01:02:31.080 because then we'll actually end up pointing the finger at the real problem why people be they black be

01:02:35.320 they women be they gay or disenfranchised rather than just focus on footballers and actors and

01:02:40.620 rappers and then talk about eastern european and communists and and white working class people

01:02:44.760 john i so hear you because i we get this and we criticize a lot of this stuff on our show the the

01:02:51.480 superficiality the oh here's you know the black chess piece or whatever to me that's just bullshit

01:02:57.140 and it's a waste of everybody's time but at the same time there are legitimate issues with with

01:03:02.120 all these different groups absolutely and i noticed what you're talking about which is

01:03:05.860 when they're brought up everybody not everybody but some people just they just switch off and they

01:03:10.960 go oh oh well every it's the same thing as that absolutely well actually no i mean if black kids

01:03:17.820 are stabbing each other to death at a rate 24 times as white kids yeah that that needs to be dealt

01:03:22.820 with and we need and it's not because they're black it's to do with the situation i found very much

01:03:26.520 like in poverty ridden and why why are there these poverty ridden areas to begin with so that kind

01:03:30.260 of exactly yeah but but but people like we'll come back not only when they switch off he'll come

01:03:35.060 back and he'll go yeah but you see that's black yeah black kids it's a black problem and i said

01:03:38.840 well when i was in glasgow with all white kids no one said it was a white problem yeah it's an inner

01:03:41.800 city problem yeah exactly but no one wants to push that so so that that's something that needs to be

01:03:46.120 investigated while all the superficial stuff just needs to not be talked about so that we can focus on

01:03:51.220 the things that matter yeah what i'm hearing from you is you feel that you've used the term several

01:03:56.400 times it's the system what do you mean the media do you mean the government who do you mean when you

01:04:01.300 talk about the system well i mean is it the firm that megan talks about so if you want to talk the

01:04:06.740 people who make the decisions and the policy makers whoever they are because when you talk about even

01:04:11.740 black role models for example and um black footballers you know if you go to harvard princeton yale

01:04:17.580 oxford cambridge harrow school i don't think that and these other people are going to run rule the

01:04:23.680 world i don't think they're they're um their role models are harry kane and paul gascoigne for some

01:04:29.760 reason probably not i don't think whereas we're telling our black kids that your role models has

01:04:33.540 to be john barton and mike tyson and the boxes and the sportsmen and stuff like that so i'm just talking

01:04:37.440 about the people who rule the world i mean you know i don't know who they are but we know who they are

01:04:41.220 yeah exactly the illuminati there you go yeah the rothschilds the rothschilds

01:04:45.720 and not the ones not the ones from from iraq because you've got to choose in iraq not those

01:04:50.820 ones the blonde hair blue eyed jews yeah john it's been a pleasure it's been an absolute pleasure

01:04:55.760 thank you so much for coming on the show uh we're going to do some questions for our locals which is

01:05:00.500 just our supporters uh before we do that um if people want to find you online and everything else

01:05:07.240 where's the best they should buy the book they should buy the book number one i'm i'm i can just

01:05:12.200 about send a text so i don't know how they're going to find me online to go to a phone box for

01:05:15.540 50p and i can give them a number because this social media thing i can just about do twitter

01:05:19.980 and i'm messing up on twitter because i'm pressing the wrong button anyway so when you talk about

01:05:23.000 instagram facebook i have not got a clue so unfortunately you know i suppose the book

01:05:27.340 you can find the book somewhere but if you want to find me i live on the world come and have a cup of

01:05:30.620 tea okay fantastic and the last question we always finish with is what's the one thing we're not

01:05:35.280 talking about but we really should be just what we've been talking about today

01:05:38.800 in the way we've been talking about it fantastic john thank you so much for coming on the show

01:05:44.080 it's been a pleasure guys if you've enjoyed this episode our episodes always go out wednesday sunday

01:05:49.140 7 p.m uk time 2 p.m eastern standard we also have raw shows as well the exact same time and if you

01:05:56.340 like your trigonometry on the go it's also available as a podcast take care and see you soon

01:06:02.020 we hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview remember to subscribe and hit the bell button so

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01:06:32.020 ogrom

01:06:48.220 type

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01:06:50.640 you

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01:07:32.020 Thank you.

TRIGGERnometry - November 01, 2021

An Honest Conversation About Race with John Barnes

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Hate Speech Sentences

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