TRIGGERnometry - An Honest Conversation with a Hardline Feminist

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00:00:30.000 Hey Francis, do you like coffee?

00:00:32.820 No mate, I like tea, because tea's British. It's as British as kebabs and St. George. 0.94

00:00:39.860 Tea's from India and China, kebabs are from the Middle East and St. George was Turkish. 0.98

00:00:44.480 Doesn't matter mate, it became British after we smashed the crap out of that lizard. 1.00

00:00:49.080 That's what happens when you look at someone's bird during a night out. 0.97

00:00:53.020 Good to know.

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00:02:41.240 I mean, when I did a talk on prostitution and the horrors of the global sex trade

00:02:45.040 at a feminist conference in October,

00:02:47.940 there were a load of blue fringes outside banging and screaming at the window 0.98

00:02:51.620 shouting, blowjobs are real jobs. 1.00

00:02:54.080 What? 0.99

00:02:54.960 Right, you don't do it then, mate.

00:02:57.320 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:03:06.400 I'm Francis Foster.

00:03:07.620 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:03:08.800 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:03:13.920 Our fascinating guest for you today is the author of this brilliant book,

00:03:17.340 Feminism for Women, The Real Route to Liberation. 1.00

00:03:19.420 Julie Binder, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:03:20.740 Thank you very much.

00:03:21.660 It's great to have you on the show.

00:03:23.160 It's wonderful to be here.

00:03:24.080 We'll get into all the feminist stuff in a second. 1.00

00:03:26.640 But before we do, tell everybody who are you, how are you, where you are.

00:03:30.000 What has been your journey through life, Julie?

00:03:31.880 I'm a journalist and I'm a feminist campaigner.

00:03:34.700 And I actually met feminists when I was 17 years old. 1.00

00:03:38.340 I was actually looking for lesbians. 1.00

00:03:41.380 There is a bit of an overlap.

00:03:42.760 There was so much of an overlap at the time.

00:03:47.340 It was, let's just say it was indivisible.

00:03:50.580 So looking for feminists, when I moved to Leeds from a northeast town called Darlington, 1.00

00:03:55.940 obviously it was a big, exciting city.

00:03:57.900 And I went into an alternative bookshop and there were the lesbians. 1.00

00:04:02.460 You could tell short hair, ill-fitting jeans, miserable look on their faces, that kind of thing. 0.89

00:04:08.240 And it was thrown right in the deep end because these feminists at the time were protesting about Peter Sutcliffe,

00:04:18.600 the Yorkshire Ripper, as he was known.

00:04:20.760 And he was killing women around the north, north of England.

00:04:26.680 And the police had botched the investigation.

00:04:30.660 So if your viewers don't know about the case, Sutcliffe killed 13 women, actually many more,

00:04:37.860 but they remain unsolved and left seven for dead.

00:04:44.200 And he began by targeting the most vulnerable of women who he thought no one would care about.

00:04:49.520 So street prostituted women. 1.00

00:04:52.460 And of course, the police weren't that interested.

00:04:56.180 I mean, they knew that these were serious crimes.

00:04:59.840 But of course, these were women who were worthless and who no one was going to care about, 1.00

00:05:04.640 which was not the case because we cared about these women and their families cared about them. 0.99

00:05:09.380 And he then went on to kill women who weren't in prostitution.

00:05:12.580 Some of them, young women, and the press decided to label them innocent victims, 0.78

00:05:19.260 which meant that the others, of course, were not.

00:05:22.060 And some of these women, and this is why it was such a baptism of fire for me,

00:05:25.700 becoming involved at the time that I did in 1979,

00:05:29.660 is that some of the women weren't in prostitution, but they were seen as such 0.98

00:05:37.520 because they had the nerve to go out drinking on their own and were enjoying sex with men.

00:05:44.300 So some of them were, you know, seen as good time girls.

00:05:47.480 Well, that isn't how women are supposed to behave. 1.00

00:05:49.200 And certainly not in 1979 in the north of England or anywhere.

00:05:55.680 So we were raging against the police for not actually catching this man

00:06:00.520 because they were looking in all the wrong directions.

00:06:03.540 We were raging against them and the press for telling us to be safe,

00:06:08.640 telling us to stay at home,

00:06:12.240 telling the potential victims that we couldn't go out at night

00:06:16.360 when in fact the home is the most dangerous place for women and girls. 1.00

00:06:21.780 It's where we're most likely to be killed by a former or current male partner.

00:06:27.260 It's where we're most likely to be sexually abused.

00:06:29.700 Rape in marriage had not been criminalised at that time.

00:06:33.880 Things were dangerous in the home for women 1.00

00:06:35.240 and we wanted to reclaim the streets.

00:06:38.400 And so we did.

00:06:40.760 We marched around Leeds and other cities

00:06:43.940 with banners and placards saying

00:06:46.720 men off the streets,

00:06:49.840 end male violence,

00:06:51.680 no to rape.

00:06:53.420 And one night we did this great direct action,

00:06:57.840 which is that we mocked up a load of West Yorkshire police flyers.

00:07:01.360 We put them everywhere

00:07:02.560 on lampposts and doorways saying,

00:07:07.700 men, there's a curfew.

00:07:09.060 All men have to be in off the streets at home by eight o'clock tonight.

00:07:15.600 And it worked for one night.

00:07:18.140 The streets were free of men.

00:07:20.480 Now, this might sound anti-men,

00:07:24.180 but let me tell you why it was not.

00:07:26.360 Because, of course,

00:07:27.360 we shouldn't be responsible for our own safety.

00:07:31.500 Men should not be raping. 1.00

00:07:32.840 Men should not be killing. 0.91

00:07:34.080 They shouldn't be making us feel scared.

00:07:35.700 And what was happening at the time

00:07:37.920 was while the feminists were going berserk 1.00

00:07:41.120 about this killer

00:07:42.360 and about the police and the press response,

00:07:45.920 a lot of men,

00:07:47.320 for example,

00:07:48.000 Leeds football ground,

00:07:48.840 Ellen Road,

00:07:49.960 would be taunting the police

00:07:51.660 10-0,

00:07:53.620 11-0

00:07:54.500 as the victims stacked up.

00:07:57.960 And they'd be shouting at women on buses,

00:08:00.520 say if they hit on us, 1.00

00:08:01.880 and we told them to come fuck off. 1.00

00:08:03.980 It would be, 1.00

00:08:04.440 we hope the ripper gets you.

00:08:06.200 Or I might be the ripper.

00:08:08.700 And so what that whole time in Leeds did

00:08:13.040 was it lifted up the stone

00:08:15.180 and outcrawled all the misogyny

00:08:17.580 that had been there all along

00:08:19.540 and that, of course,

00:08:21.040 the feminists responded to. 1.00

00:08:22.720 So that was my journey into feminism. 1.00

00:08:25.140 And then further down the line,

00:08:27.360 you know,

00:08:27.680 for a long time,

00:08:30.160 I worked in the grey economy.

00:08:31.540 I was a very good shoplifter.

00:08:33.040 You can't do that anymore.

00:08:34.100 You know,

00:08:35.940 the kind of technology

00:08:37.820 got a bit too much for me.

00:08:39.360 So I dropped that.

00:08:40.940 Bit of check card frauding.

00:08:42.600 And then I met my partner,

00:08:45.320 who I'm still with,

00:08:46.220 and she made me go to university.

00:08:48.200 She said,

00:08:48.480 you can't just hang around

00:08:49.480 doing this kind of thing.

00:08:51.980 Go and get a proper job.

00:08:52.840 So I ended up in journalism

00:08:54.800 when I was about 40.

00:08:55.920 I'm 59 now,

00:08:57.120 so that's my...

00:08:58.880 And here you are.

00:08:59.860 Well, look,

00:09:00.520 I'm glad you put that context

00:09:02.000 to the whole feminist thing 1.00

00:09:03.080 because I wanted to ask you,

00:09:04.420 we've talked about feminism a lot, 0.97

00:09:06.020 particularly when we first started

00:09:07.240 with people who are pro

00:09:09.080 and critical of it to some extent.

00:09:11.360 And I think when you were talking

00:09:12.640 about the, you know,

00:09:14.760 a mass murderer 0.85

00:09:15.900 killing women 1.00

00:09:16.600 and targeting women 0.97

00:09:17.560 and the police not doing anything about it

00:09:19.660 and men taunting,

00:09:21.380 like I think any sensible person

00:09:23.580 listening to that

00:09:24.340 would be totally in support of that,

00:09:26.160 that part of it.

00:09:27.660 But I'm a bit younger.

00:09:29.360 I didn't go through that experience.

00:09:31.460 I didn't see that.

00:09:33.280 And so when I encountered feminism

00:09:35.220 as I matured,

00:09:36.440 well, not matured,

00:09:37.060 but as I became an adult, let's say,

00:09:39.080 it was a different type of feminism 1.00

00:09:40.500 at this point.

00:09:41.640 And it was this,

00:09:42.620 it felt like that to me at least.

00:09:44.720 It was,

00:09:46.600 no one was talking about

00:09:47.700 domestic violence anymore.

00:09:48.880 No one was talking about this stuff.

00:09:52.040 It was all about,

00:09:53.100 you know,

00:09:54.240 microaggressions in the workplace.

00:09:56.560 Someone used the wrong word.

00:09:57.820 The air conditioning

00:09:58.560 isn't quite tailored enough

00:10:00.240 to women's whatever.

00:10:02.520 Do you see what I'm saying?

00:10:03.520 So what is feminism actually? 1.00

00:10:05.520 Because I think a lot of young men,

00:10:08.080 maybe who are,

00:10:08.980 who don't have the background

00:10:10.000 that you've just laid out,

00:10:11.420 just see it as a sort of

00:10:12.680 a bunch of people whining about stuff

00:10:14.320 that doesn't really matter.

00:10:16.500 Excuse me.

00:10:17.100 Yes, well,

00:10:17.860 the microaggression thing

00:10:19.020 is a clue, isn't it?

00:10:20.220 It's micro.

00:10:21.320 So it actually is almost invisible.

00:10:25.480 So why worry?

00:10:27.340 You know,

00:10:27.660 we walk around

00:10:28.760 being offended constantly,

00:10:32.260 but would never worry

00:10:33.640 about talking about it

00:10:34.780 or calling anyone to task

00:10:36.400 because you've just been

00:10:37.320 slightly offended.

00:10:38.640 Who cares?

00:10:39.160 But that kind of feminism 1.00

00:10:41.660 that you've described

00:10:42.480 is a very pampered

00:10:43.480 kind of version of,

00:10:46.000 I mean,

00:10:46.160 you see it a lot in the States.

00:10:47.420 They call it lean-in feminism. 1.00

00:10:49.420 So it's,

00:10:50.280 oh,

00:10:50.560 I'm only earning

00:10:51.480 a million dollars a year

00:10:52.880 and he's earning

00:10:53.800 a million and a quarter.

00:10:56.140 Okay,

00:10:56.720 I don't actually care

00:10:58.140 about those issues.

00:10:59.580 Of course,

00:11:00.080 it's indicative of sexism.

00:11:01.960 Of course,

00:11:02.420 if somebody else

00:11:03.340 is getting a quarter

00:11:03.920 of a million quid

00:11:04.600 a year more than a woman,

00:11:07.000 well,

00:11:07.460 yeah,

00:11:07.900 I mean,

00:11:08.280 it probably,

00:11:09.400 possibly is.

00:11:10.260 If they're doing

00:11:10.620 the same job,

00:11:11.380 then that is.

00:11:11.720 If they're doing

00:11:11.920 exactly the same job,

00:11:12.880 but who actually cares

00:11:14.860 at that level?

00:11:15.920 So I care about the women 1.00

00:11:17.040 at the bottom.

00:11:18.880 And feminism is for all women, 1.00

00:11:20.660 of course,

00:11:21.220 because all women, 1.00

00:11:22.680 we're united

00:11:24.660 by one thing only.

00:11:26.760 Only,

00:11:27.320 only the fear

00:11:28.700 and reality

00:11:29.220 of male violence.

00:11:29.980 There is nothing else

00:11:31.160 that unites women.

00:11:32.800 I mean,

00:11:33.220 bits of our biology.

00:11:34.820 But really,

00:11:35.440 that is it.

00:11:37.780 And so,

00:11:38.200 of course,

00:11:38.560 a woman,

00:11:38.980 however privileged

00:11:40.280 and however wealthy she is,

00:11:44.940 she can still be,

00:11:46.640 to a lesser extent,

00:11:47.660 in many ways,

00:11:48.220 vulnerable to that abuse

00:11:50.360 because her privilege 0.94

00:11:51.680 doesn't protect her

00:11:52.660 from that.

00:11:54.280 But whilst all women 0.99

00:11:57.780 benefit from feminism, 1.00

00:11:59.360 some women need 1.00

00:12:00.200 a damn sight more. 0.99

00:12:01.380 And I'm sick 0.95

00:12:03.800 of hearing

00:12:04.720 the type of,

00:12:06.180 we used to call them

00:12:06.780 shoulder pads

00:12:07.600 in the 1990s.

00:12:09.780 There's women 1.00

00:12:10.460 that are

00:12:11.680 extremely senior

00:12:13.520 in their work

00:12:14.480 that talk about issues

00:12:16.280 that can only

00:12:17.380 matter to them

00:12:19.060 whilst not caring

00:12:21.180 about other women

00:12:21.900 at all.

00:12:22.860 So they would no sooner

00:12:24.600 look at

00:12:26.620 impoverished women 0.95

00:12:27.620 who don't have

00:12:29.640 the kind of job

00:12:30.900 where they would

00:12:31.360 ever be given

00:12:32.500 maternity benefits

00:12:34.560 than they would

00:12:36.000 any other

00:12:38.080 kind of oppressed

00:12:39.020 or minority group.

00:12:41.180 They just care

00:12:41.940 about their own

00:12:42.660 privilege.

00:12:44.660 One of the reasons

00:12:45.320 that I wanted

00:12:45.960 to bring you on,

00:12:46.680 Julie,

00:12:46.840 was when we were

00:12:47.260 appearing on GB News

00:12:48.420 together and you

00:12:49.200 were talking about

00:12:50.380 male violence

00:12:51.460 towards women,

00:12:52.580 particularly at home.

00:12:53.600 And that's something

00:12:54.280 we don't really talk

00:12:55.260 about anymore.

00:12:55.740 And it's always

00:12:57.420 been in our society

00:12:58.420 and I think over

00:12:59.600 the last year and a half

00:13:00.660 due to lockdown

00:13:01.380 it's got significantly

00:13:02.540 worse because for

00:13:03.520 a lot of women 1.00

00:13:04.240 being able to go

00:13:05.360 to work,

00:13:06.000 being able to go

00:13:06.620 and see people,

00:13:07.360 being able to go

00:13:07.840 and meet up

00:13:08.200 for a coffee,

00:13:09.720 to those types

00:13:10.420 of women that

00:13:11.420 is their sanctuary,

00:13:12.320 that is their escape

00:13:13.040 and all of a sudden

00:13:14.080 over lockdown

00:13:14.660 that disappeared

00:13:15.920 and all they had

00:13:17.020 was the home.

00:13:18.120 It's true,

00:13:18.640 it's that kind of

00:13:19.240 isolation that gets

00:13:20.120 even more extreme.

00:13:22.420 So for example,

00:13:23.060 the way that we

00:13:25.880 look at levels

00:13:26.740 of serious

00:13:27.400 male violence,

00:13:28.560 it's actually

00:13:28.980 very straightforward.

00:13:29.940 We look at the morgues,

00:13:30.800 we look at how many

00:13:31.360 deaths there are,

00:13:32.600 we look at how many

00:13:33.420 women are dying 1.00

00:13:34.200 at the hands of men.

00:13:35.640 We call it femicide, 0.66

00:13:37.100 which means women 1.00

00:13:37.940 and girls that die 0.97

00:13:38.620 because they're women 1.00

00:13:39.320 and girls

00:13:39.800 and they're killed

00:13:40.520 by men

00:13:40.960 and it could be sons,

00:13:42.180 it's usually partners

00:13:43.000 or ex-partners.

00:13:44.680 But during lockdown,

00:13:46.060 I think a lot of,

00:13:47.600 as you said,

00:13:48.380 a lot of the

00:13:49.200 relative freedom

00:13:50.340 that women had 0.99

00:13:51.420 to escape,

00:13:53.500 disappeared,

00:13:54.400 but also it gave

00:13:55.800 some men

00:13:56.400 who are violent

00:13:57.280 a ready excuse

00:13:58.600 for their violence.

00:14:01.080 So you know,

00:14:01.460 we've heard it

00:14:01.960 over the years.

00:14:03.600 He only hits me

00:14:04.440 when he's drunk.

00:14:05.320 Well, you know,

00:14:06.180 I've been drunk

00:14:06.840 a few times.

00:14:08.080 I haven't lamped anyone

00:14:09.260 and obviously

00:14:10.420 he's not going into work

00:14:11.460 and lamping his boss.

00:14:12.720 He's choosing to do it

00:14:13.720 to his wife

00:14:14.220 or his kids.

00:14:15.780 The man called

00:14:16.480 Anthony Williams

00:14:17.240 who,

00:14:19.500 I think in his 60s,

00:14:20.660 got a bit depressed

00:14:23.100 during lockdown.

00:14:24.040 I mean,

00:14:24.440 didn't we all?

00:14:25.940 And he decided 0.92

00:14:26.900 to strangle his wife. 0.87

00:14:29.200 He said, 0.97

00:14:29.980 he argued,

00:14:30.560 no history

00:14:31.600 of domestic violence.

00:14:32.600 Well,

00:14:33.180 there possibly wasn't

00:14:34.020 a history

00:14:34.340 of domestic violence

00:14:35.300 but there was certainly

00:14:36.940 a loss of control

00:14:37.780 in that relationship

00:14:38.600 from what we understand.

00:14:40.780 So he started

00:14:41.560 to throttle his wife 0.85

00:14:42.400 in the bedroom. 0.79

00:14:43.920 She saw he meant business

00:14:44.880 so she ran,

00:14:45.640 ran from him,

00:14:46.720 was fumbling

00:14:47.500 with her key 0.50

00:14:48.620 in the door

00:14:49.400 to get out

00:14:50.520 and he caught up

00:14:51.720 with her

00:14:52.100 so he'd had

00:14:52.900 that distance

00:14:53.800 between her 0.65

00:14:54.480 running away

00:14:55.720 and finished the job, 1.00

00:14:57.700 killed her. 0.99

00:14:59.840 And he was successful 0.98

00:15:01.060 in his defence

00:15:03.240 against murder.

00:15:05.180 He was convicted

00:15:05.840 of manslaughter.

00:15:06.460 He was given

00:15:07.060 four years

00:15:07.940 and five months,

00:15:08.700 I think,

00:15:09.560 because he said

00:15:11.100 that he was

00:15:11.780 a bit depressed.

00:15:13.920 There was no need

00:15:14.920 for a psychiatric report

00:15:16.360 saying that

00:15:17.260 that was

00:15:17.560 clinical depression.

00:15:19.140 The court

00:15:19.560 just accepted

00:15:20.220 his word.

00:15:21.980 Now,

00:15:23.880 contrast that

00:15:24.560 with Sally Challen.

00:15:25.440 I don't know

00:15:25.700 if you've heard

00:15:26.240 the Challen case,

00:15:27.420 right?

00:15:27.600 Well,

00:15:29.180 2010,

00:15:30.320 you'll have seen it

00:15:30.880 at the time,

00:15:31.420 it was everywhere.

00:15:33.060 A middle class,

00:15:34.160 white,

00:15:35.600 seemingly very

00:15:36.600 kind of,

00:15:36.980 you know,

00:15:37.140 public school educated,

00:15:38.500 been to finishing school,

00:15:40.180 woman in her 50s,

00:15:43.620 bludgeoned her husband 1.00

00:15:44.680 to death

00:15:45.180 with a hammer. 0.99

00:15:45.900 Totalled him.

00:15:48.860 Went to beachy head

00:15:49.840 with a very,

00:15:51.760 very sincere

00:15:53.220 desire

00:15:55.720 to throw herself 1.00

00:15:57.240 over and kill herself. 1.00

00:15:59.020 She was talked down. 0.99

00:16:01.180 She was put on trial.

00:16:02.660 She was convicted

00:16:03.300 of his murder.

00:16:05.500 And every single

00:16:06.860 newspaper report

00:16:07.800 ran the same

00:16:08.460 kind of line.

00:16:10.000 Deranged,

00:16:10.580 hammer,

00:16:10.940 horror, 0.97

00:16:11.400 killing, 0.84

00:16:11.940 blah, 1.00

00:16:12.100 blah,

00:16:12.280 blah.

00:16:13.800 You know,

00:16:14.400 there was the usual

00:16:15.280 kind of,

00:16:15.720 he seemed like

00:16:16.300 a nice man,

00:16:17.160 there was no violence.

00:16:19.440 And then

00:16:20.120 the organisation

00:16:21.360 that I set up

00:16:22.140 with others

00:16:22.900 in 1990,

00:16:23.740 Justice for Women, 1.00

00:16:25.320 we look to campaign

00:16:27.860 for and represent

00:16:28.500 women who've 0.99

00:16:29.280 killed as a response

00:16:31.100 to male violence.

00:16:32.280 and we look

00:16:33.180 and we look at how

00:16:34.160 they've been treated

00:16:34.840 by the courts.

00:16:36.300 So we just waited,

00:16:37.340 we knew we'd get

00:16:37.840 a letter from

00:16:38.500 Sally Challen

00:16:39.560 or somebody

00:16:40.360 related to her.

00:16:42.080 A couple of weeks

00:16:42.560 later it came

00:16:43.260 from her cousin.

00:16:45.060 Can you

00:16:46.240 represent

00:16:47.000 Sally?

00:16:48.640 She was in

00:16:49.520 a terribly abusive

00:16:50.780 relationship

00:16:51.760 with this man

00:16:52.500 for four decades.

00:16:53.500 And that's

00:16:55.560 interesting,

00:16:56.060 isn't it?

00:16:56.340 The kind of

00:16:56.880 language we use

00:16:57.620 that somebody's

00:16:58.760 in an abusive

00:16:59.740 relationship.

00:17:00.280 It's not actually

00:17:01.140 an abusive

00:17:01.660 relationship. 0.99

00:17:03.300 He's the abuser.

00:17:04.420 She's not,

00:17:05.080 she's not in

00:17:06.820 that relationship.

00:17:07.960 He's doing it

00:17:08.740 to her.

00:17:10.180 And when we

00:17:11.240 uncovered

00:17:11.700 the detail

00:17:14.400 of her life

00:17:15.200 with Richard

00:17:16.080 Challen,

00:17:16.900 it was horrific.

00:17:18.260 And it could

00:17:19.180 have been there

00:17:19.640 for the courts

00:17:20.340 to see.

00:17:22.240 I mean,

00:17:22.540 the first thing,

00:17:23.640 and this definitely

00:17:24.600 is not the most

00:17:25.260 serious,

00:17:25.800 but what would

00:17:26.860 you think

00:17:27.460 if you went

00:17:28.560 round to a

00:17:29.020 friend's house,

00:17:30.420 a married couple

00:17:31.060 like Sally

00:17:31.940 and Richard,

00:17:32.920 and you saw

00:17:33.760 on their

00:17:34.140 mantelpiece

00:17:34.940 a picture

00:17:35.980 of him

00:17:36.740 sitting

00:17:38.180 astride

00:17:39.640 a red

00:17:41.100 sports car

00:17:41.940 with at

00:17:43.220 either side

00:17:43.840 of him

00:17:44.100 two bare-breasted

00:17:45.140 dolly birds

00:17:46.040 wearing nothing

00:17:47.060 but thongs 0.99

00:17:47.760 what would

00:17:49.760 you think

00:17:50.080 to that

00:17:50.520 in the

00:17:50.900 family home?

00:17:52.580 It's not

00:17:53.040 really right,

00:17:53.620 is it?

00:17:54.640 He sent

00:17:55.160 that Christmas

00:17:56.200 card to all

00:17:57.140 their friends

00:17:57.580 and relatives

00:17:58.200 and put that

00:17:59.580 there for her

00:18:00.520 to look at

00:18:00.940 every day.

00:18:02.220 He'd anally 1.00

00:18:02.800 raped her 1.00

00:18:03.380 as punishment 1.00

00:18:04.040 for her being

00:18:04.960 kissed by one

00:18:05.740 of his friends.

00:18:06.940 Wasn't her

00:18:07.380 choice.

00:18:08.080 He just

00:18:08.340 happened to

00:18:08.680 walk in on

00:18:09.220 it.

00:18:10.340 He had

00:18:10.820 belittled her,

00:18:11.840 demeaned her,

00:18:13.500 psychologically

00:18:14.000 tortured her 0.50

00:18:15.260 for decades.

00:18:17.760 their sons

00:18:19.580 testified to

00:18:20.440 this.

00:18:21.180 Her son

00:18:21.540 David

00:18:21.880 campaigned

00:18:22.400 on her

00:18:22.660 behalf.

00:18:23.920 She was

00:18:24.200 given life

00:18:24.660 for murder.

00:18:25.500 We eventually

00:18:26.040 got that

00:18:26.520 overturned,

00:18:27.540 but she'd

00:18:27.860 served 10

00:18:28.320 years in

00:18:28.740 prison.

00:18:29.560 So if you

00:18:29.840 compare those

00:18:30.640 two cases,

00:18:32.140 it tells you

00:18:32.780 what feminism 1.00

00:18:34.400 should be

00:18:35.080 about.

00:18:35.440 Not the

00:18:35.720 microaggressions,

00:18:37.240 not the

00:18:37.880 women at

00:18:38.260 the top,

00:18:39.360 but the

00:18:39.700 women who 0.99

00:18:40.160 are actually

00:18:41.000 going through

00:18:41.660 this and

00:18:42.620 are being

00:18:42.860 discriminated

00:18:43.540 against and

00:18:44.020 blamed when

00:18:44.620 they do

00:18:45.040 fight back

00:18:46.620 or just

00:18:47.940 try to defend

00:18:48.580 themselves.

00:18:49.820 And why is it

00:18:50.460 then that we

00:18:50.960 focus in on

00:18:51.700 the microaggressions?

00:18:52.680 Why don't we

00:18:53.320 talk about

00:18:54.700 these issues,

00:18:55.680 which are really

00:18:56.260 important and

00:18:56.860 which affect

00:18:57.420 women? 1.00

00:18:58.300 Well, you see,

00:18:59.300 proper feminists 1.00

00:18:59.980 do.

00:19:00.180 Look, there are

00:19:00.500 hundreds of ways

00:19:01.140 to be a feminist, 1.00

00:19:01.880 but most of them

00:19:02.420 are wrong. 1.00

00:19:06.720 Every fucker 1.00

00:19:07.760 can call 1.00

00:19:08.160 themselves a

00:19:08.900 feminist.

00:19:09.500 And they do.

00:19:10.120 And they do.

00:19:10.960 And the reason

00:19:11.620 why they do it,

00:19:13.460 I mean women, 0.98

00:19:14.240 but even some

00:19:15.000 men, is to

00:19:17.200 then spout the

00:19:18.180 worst kind of

00:19:19.220 anti-feminism,

00:19:20.560 but with

00:19:20.860 authority.

00:19:22.280 So one

00:19:22.740 example,

00:19:23.640 Ash Sarkar.

00:19:26.100 We know.

00:19:27.000 We know.

00:19:27.480 Navarra Media

00:19:28.160 and Pundit.

00:19:29.680 Media Pundit.

00:19:30.860 I'm sure that

00:19:31.760 she's a highly

00:19:32.480 intelligent

00:19:33.160 woman of talent.

00:19:35.940 You know,

00:19:36.160 I do not judge

00:19:37.040 her for that

00:19:38.400 at all,

00:19:38.820 but she's not 0.62

00:19:39.420 a feminist.

00:19:40.180 She really

00:19:41.020 isn't a feminist. 1.00

00:19:42.240 She's a

00:19:42.740 trans activist.

00:19:44.300 She's a luxury

00:19:45.120 communist,

00:19:45.620 or whatever she 0.80

00:19:46.100 calls herself.

00:19:47.100 But just because

00:19:47.880 she's a woman

00:19:48.780 with a big mouth

00:19:50.200 does not mean

00:19:51.240 she is a feminist.

00:19:52.080 Now, I'll give you

00:19:52.860 one little example.

00:19:54.160 I mean, there are

00:19:54.620 millions I could use.

00:19:55.840 I mean, the mad 0.98

00:19:56.940 nonsense she spouts 0.97

00:19:58.060 about how 0.97

00:19:59.440 male sex offenders

00:20:01.940 that identify 0.70

00:20:02.900 as women

00:20:05.000 are no danger

00:20:05.900 to really vulnerable

00:20:07.120 women in prison 0.99

00:20:07.920 settings, for example.

00:20:08.860 That's just one.

00:20:10.660 So anyway,

00:20:11.440 I tweeted something

00:20:12.780 in response to her

00:20:15.080 two or three years ago

00:20:16.840 where she was saying,

00:20:18.540 trans women 0.97

00:20:19.160 are no danger 0.87

00:20:20.040 at all in the

00:20:20.720 women's prison estate.

00:20:21.940 And I just tweeted,

00:20:24.360 well,

00:20:24.760 unless you're a

00:20:25.280 vulnerable woman

00:20:25.920 who obviously

00:20:26.720 is sexually assaulted 0.93

00:20:27.580 by one of them. 0.96

00:20:30.420 And the next thing,

00:20:31.920 somebody alerted me

00:20:32.960 to her tweet,

00:20:34.380 which was a thing

00:20:34.960 of beauty.

00:20:36.920 She'd done a search 0.85

00:20:38.000 on Twitter,

00:20:39.200 not even on Google.

00:20:41.800 This is her journalism

00:20:43.200 really kicking in.

00:20:46.080 She'd put the name

00:20:47.120 of a prisoner

00:20:48.520 who'd taken her own life,

00:20:49.960 a case that I knew about,

00:20:52.020 that I'd campaigned

00:20:53.000 on behalf of,

00:20:54.220 and she'd put my name.

00:20:55.400 And when it didn't

00:20:57.180 come up with a hit

00:20:58.180 of me tweeting

00:20:59.580 about this woman,

00:21:01.280 she said,

00:21:01.960 here we go,

00:21:02.940 these transphobes

00:21:04.200 don't care about 0.97

00:21:05.540 women in prison. 1.00

00:21:06.340 They only care 0.81

00:21:08.080 about being transphobic.

00:21:09.700 And immediately,

00:21:11.600 she was piled on.

00:21:13.740 Even by my enemies,

00:21:15.400 you said,

00:21:16.320 oh, I think Julie Binzel

00:21:17.320 has actually,

00:21:18.320 since before you were born,

00:21:19.540 Ash,

00:21:20.180 set up Justice for Women,

00:21:21.540 has helped loads

00:21:22.540 of women get out 1.00

00:21:23.240 of prison and campaigns

00:21:24.980 for prison reform.

00:21:26.700 So I think you've got

00:21:27.620 that wrong. 0.93

00:21:29.060 So arrogant.

00:21:30.320 Didn't correct it. 0.91

00:21:31.340 Didn't take it down.

00:21:32.340 Didn't apologise.

00:21:33.080 Which actually is

00:21:33.640 quite admirable.

00:21:35.180 But she will say

00:21:37.680 she's a feminist 1.00

00:21:38.300 and she'll say it

00:21:39.360 in order to

00:21:40.340 completely discredit

00:21:42.940 any of the work I do

00:21:45.100 or the women 0.98

00:21:46.240 that also campaign

00:21:47.080 against male violence.

00:21:48.840 That's what they do.

00:21:49.800 Male feminists as well. 0.99

00:21:51.220 You know,

00:21:51.420 they'll do the same. 0.71

00:21:52.060 They're the worst.

00:21:53.240 Billy Bragg. 1.00

00:21:54.900 That dickhead. 0.99

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00:22:29.340 Julie,

00:22:29.940 you know,

00:22:30.220 what you're talking about

00:22:31.220 speaks to so much

00:22:33.360 of the other things

00:22:34.340 we've discussed

00:22:34.980 on the show

00:22:35.520 where it seems like

00:22:36.320 everywhere you look now

00:22:37.400 you have

00:22:38.380 these poseurs,

00:22:39.900 these people who have,

00:22:41.120 they take a pose

00:22:41.960 in public

00:22:42.460 and because of that

00:22:43.420 they have a large following

00:22:44.520 and whatever

00:22:45.180 and there are other people

00:22:46.680 who are doing

00:22:47.220 actual real work

00:22:48.320 on the ground

00:22:48.780 whose work in many ways

00:22:49.820 is being undermined

00:22:50.900 by the poseurs

00:22:52.740 who are doing this

00:22:53.980 and I certainly feel that way

00:22:55.640 because when you were

00:22:56.260 talking about

00:22:57.140 Sally?

00:22:58.640 Sally Challen.

00:22:59.460 Sally Challen.

00:23:00.960 I'm horrified

00:23:01.880 to hear the story

00:23:02.920 let alone

00:23:03.620 the different treatment

00:23:04.700 judicially

00:23:05.240 just the story itself

00:23:06.280 is horrific obviously

00:23:07.200 but to me

00:23:08.360 I don't even see that

00:23:09.520 and forgive me

00:23:10.360 as a feminist issue

00:23:11.500 to me

00:23:11.900 that's an issue

00:23:12.500 of injustice.

00:23:13.260 Of course it is.

00:23:13.980 Right?

00:23:15.020 But when you have

00:23:16.400 people running around

00:23:17.480 talking about

00:23:18.260 how feminism 0.99

00:23:18.840 is about

00:23:19.340 the wrong temperature

00:23:20.160 in the office

00:23:20.620 or whatever it is

00:23:22.400 it puts people like me

00:23:24.240 off the whole thing

00:23:25.140 if I'm honest with you.

00:23:26.380 Right?

00:23:26.940 And I think

00:23:28.420 it undermines

00:23:29.320 the cause

00:23:29.960 that you are advocating

00:23:31.160 for which is

00:23:31.960 clearly necessary.

00:23:34.260 Well the way

00:23:35.220 I look at it

00:23:35.780 because I don't

00:23:36.200 particularly agree

00:23:37.000 with you

00:23:37.520 on one level

00:23:39.220 because of course

00:23:39.880 sexism is one thing 1.00

00:23:41.720 misogyny is another

00:23:42.540 and all misogyny

00:23:43.860 is a sexist

00:23:44.500 but not all

00:23:45.160 sexists are misogynists.

00:23:46.880 I'm one of those 0.98

00:23:47.680 I think.

00:23:48.540 I think I'm another.

00:23:52.780 So you know

00:23:53.800 Caroline Criado-Perez

00:23:54.800 wrote a great book

00:23:56.160 about the temperature

00:23:57.260 in the office.

00:23:59.180 You know

00:23:59.780 I don't mean

00:24:00.520 to be facetious

00:24:02.920 it's actually

00:24:03.860 a really important book

00:24:05.460 because she tells us

00:24:06.840 things that

00:24:07.680 I certainly

00:24:08.160 hadn't known

00:24:08.720 just about the way

00:24:09.480 that firefighters

00:24:10.960 uniforms

00:24:11.880 are not

00:24:14.200 designed for women

00:24:16.520 so therefore

00:24:17.280 when you have

00:24:17.700 female firefighters 0.98

00:24:18.640 their uniforms

00:24:19.580 don't fit them.

00:24:20.200 Now that is

00:24:21.240 a small thing

00:24:22.320 compared

00:24:22.800 to sending a woman 0.99

00:24:24.020 to life

00:24:24.500 for responding

00:24:25.320 to male violence

00:24:26.200 or looking at rates

00:24:27.840 of femicide

00:24:28.960 in Russia

00:24:29.300 which is

00:24:29.720 you know

00:24:30.000 one of the highest

00:24:30.480 in the world

00:24:31.280 but it still

00:24:32.740 is an indication

00:24:33.980 of sexism

00:24:34.940 and of course

00:24:36.600 sexism can lead 0.83

00:24:37.780 to real discrimination

00:24:40.000 and it can lead

00:24:41.020 to worse

00:24:42.080 than these kind

00:24:43.420 of attitudes.

00:24:44.060 I mean wolf whistling

00:24:44.940 which

00:24:45.880 Julie

00:24:46.120 may I pause you there

00:24:47.380 just for one second

00:24:48.000 you'll be very welcome

00:24:49.300 to carry on

00:24:49.760 with your point.

00:24:51.440 This is

00:24:51.760 I want to flesh this out

00:24:52.800 because we talk about

00:24:54.000 this in other contexts

00:24:54.800 as well

00:24:55.180 in the issue of race

00:24:56.180 or whatever

00:24:56.620 where people automatically

00:24:58.280 assume often

00:24:59.180 that a disparity

00:25:00.260 means discrimination

00:25:01.300 so

00:25:02.500 I don't know

00:25:03.940 if this is true

00:25:04.520 and correct me

00:25:05.080 if I'm wrong

00:25:05.460 but I would imagine

00:25:06.240 the reason that

00:25:07.100 firefighters uniforms

00:25:08.320 are designed for men 0.61

00:25:09.580 is historically

00:25:10.340 the overwhelming majority

00:25:11.460 of people attracted

00:25:12.260 to that profession

00:25:12.980 and for a period of time

00:25:14.040 allowed to be in that profession

00:25:15.160 I grant you

00:25:15.680 were men

00:25:16.600 and therefore

00:25:17.460 it's just a default setting

00:25:18.600 it's not because people

00:25:19.480 sat down and went

00:25:20.400 we hate women 1.00

00:25:21.440 or we are against women 0.97

00:25:22.660 or we don't respect women

00:25:23.780 of course

00:25:24.180 right

00:25:24.520 so is that really sexism

00:25:26.040 or is it just like

00:25:26.920 a sort of

00:25:27.420 you know

00:25:27.820 this is the default setting

00:25:29.400 because not many women 1.00

00:25:30.500 have been in this profession

00:25:31.460 and as it becomes more

00:25:32.680 even if it ever does

00:25:33.640 that will be taken

00:25:34.780 do you see what I'm saying

00:25:35.600 I do

00:25:36.060 and the only reason

00:25:37.440 why women are in the fire service 1.00

00:25:38.740 at all

00:25:39.040 is because feminists 1.00

00:25:39.700 campaigned

00:25:40.740 against the kind of

00:25:42.240 discrimination

00:25:43.040 sure

00:25:43.820 that would prevent women 1.00

00:25:45.720 from being in the fire service

00:25:47.720 I mean to be honest with you

00:25:49.200 the kind of feminism 1.00

00:25:50.780 I got involved in

00:25:51.840 very early on

00:25:52.820 as I mentioned

00:25:54.040 at the beginning

00:25:54.580 is what I see

00:25:55.980 as the life and death issues

00:25:57.300 and I can't get whipped up

00:25:58.980 about

00:25:59.400 equal pay

00:26:01.600 I care about the women 1.00

00:26:03.060 who are on zero contract hours

00:26:04.420 obviously

00:26:04.880 I don't really get whipped up

00:26:06.480 about the other stuff

00:26:07.220 that isn't

00:26:07.860 as kind of

00:26:09.080 nor do I

00:26:09.620 it's just you called it sexism

00:26:10.880 and I was just like

00:26:11.680 is it not

00:26:12.640 I think it's sexism

00:26:14.160 I think it is

00:26:15.260 it is all sexism

00:26:16.880 I think that

00:26:17.740 some

00:26:18.620 effects

00:26:20.460 on women

00:26:21.440 some of it affects women

00:26:23.100 more than others

00:26:23.980 that there is

00:26:26.220 if there is a default position

00:26:27.560 which favours men

00:26:28.940 then clearly

00:26:30.360 that's sexism 0.65

00:26:31.400 why?

00:26:32.660 because

00:26:33.180 if you look at

00:26:34.760 for example

00:26:35.980 Billy Bragg

00:26:36.660 who argues

00:26:38.100 he was

00:26:38.820 he decided

00:26:39.640 he had to explain

00:26:40.540 to women

00:26:41.000 what feminism was 1.00

00:26:42.160 last International Women's Day

00:26:43.980 I think

00:26:44.400 and he was saying

00:26:45.680 timing great

00:26:46.780 it's perfect

00:26:47.540 in his double denim

00:26:50.580 and he was saying

00:26:52.480 look

00:26:52.720 you know

00:26:53.020 feminism is about 1.00

00:26:53.780 equality for all

00:26:54.620 well it isn't

00:26:55.240 it's about

00:26:55.660 actually liberation

00:26:56.880 for women

00:26:57.360 equality for all

00:26:58.920 what does that mean

00:27:00.020 where's the default position

00:27:01.620 there has to be

00:27:03.800 something that you are

00:27:04.960 aspiring to be equal to

00:27:06.660 and if that's men

00:27:08.420 then that means that

00:27:09.600 men are the default position 1.00

00:27:10.880 which means that women 1.00

00:27:11.880 are discriminated against

00:27:15.080 in relation to that

00:27:16.220 but

00:27:17.580 like I say

00:27:18.540 you know

00:27:19.000 you can

00:27:19.400 you can measure

00:27:20.520 the effectiveness

00:27:22.120 of feminism

00:27:22.820 by

00:27:23.940 seeing

00:27:25.000 whether or not

00:27:25.840 we've made a difference

00:27:27.320 in terms of the scale

00:27:28.720 and prevalence

00:27:30.260 of

00:27:30.600 rape 0.93

00:27:31.700 domestic violence 0.95

00:27:32.940 femicide 0.98

00:27:34.180 forced marriage

00:27:35.320 FGM

00:27:35.880 all of the issues

00:27:36.820 that affect women and girls

00:27:38.460 because we're women and girls 0.98

00:27:39.840 which is why

00:27:41.060 the idea

00:27:42.260 that you can just identify

00:27:43.920 into a gender 0.98

00:27:44.820 is so ludicrous 0.99

00:27:46.420 because you know 0.97

00:27:47.420 tell that to a girl 1.00

00:27:48.320 in a menstrual hut 0.99

00:27:49.260 in Nepal

00:27:49.860 you know

00:27:51.100 tell that to the dead body

00:27:52.300 in the morgue

00:27:53.000 who's killed

00:27:53.580 because she's

00:27:55.040 dishonoured her family

00:27:56.020 in Kurdistan 0.53

00:27:56.960 it's nonsense

00:27:58.520 I totally get you

00:27:59.440 and I know it feels like

00:28:00.580 I'm honing in

00:28:01.420 on a trivial issue

00:28:02.260 but I'll tell you why

00:28:03.040 I'm doing it

00:28:04.320 my concern is

00:28:06.140 that if we call

00:28:07.920 everything sexism

00:28:08.920 then nothing is sexism

00:28:09.860 I agree

00:28:10.260 I absolutely agree

00:28:12.060 with that

00:28:12.540 and I think that

00:28:13.840 there's a

00:28:14.400 type of

00:28:15.720 whinging

00:28:17.540 approach

00:28:18.440 to

00:28:18.980 that's what I'm getting at

00:28:20.280 right

00:28:20.480 see the thing is

00:28:22.520 this is my sticking point

00:28:23.480 I still think it's sexism

00:28:24.760 but I don't really care

00:28:25.680 but why is it sexism

00:28:26.960 Julie

00:28:27.220 why is it sexism

00:28:28.480 because it is

00:28:29.840 suggesting that women 1.00

00:28:32.240 are

00:28:33.120 of less importance

00:28:34.500 than men

00:28:35.040 so if you have something

00:28:36.000 that's

00:28:36.840 kind of

00:28:37.240 set out

00:28:38.140 for men's convenience

00:28:39.640 for no good reason

00:28:41.240 but there is a good reason

00:28:44.520 which is the overwhelming

00:28:45.640 majority of firefighters

00:28:46.880 are men

00:28:47.320 but why

00:28:48.080 no I'm not disputing that

00:28:49.440 of course there would have been

00:28:50.480 some women who would have been 1.00

00:28:51.400 I can't believe we're talking

00:28:51.800 about firefighters 0.99

00:28:52.480 I mean who gives a shit 0.98

00:28:54.040 no I agree with you Julie 0.97

00:28:55.900 the reason that I'm picking up on this

00:28:57.760 is I do think language is important

00:28:59.520 yes it is

00:29:00.140 right

00:29:00.260 I agree

00:29:00.880 so if you're going to insist

00:29:02.340 on calling it sexism

00:29:03.420 I'm not disputing that

00:29:04.900 I want you to explain to me

00:29:06.440 why so I can understand

00:29:07.600 because right now

00:29:08.440 I don't

00:29:09.140 see it's chicken and egg

00:29:10.080 isn't it

00:29:10.420 because

00:29:10.720 obviously

00:29:12.000 if the majority

00:29:13.540 of any particular profession

00:29:15.320 or trade

00:29:16.120 are men

00:29:16.880 then things are set up

00:29:18.540 for them

00:29:19.060 it's like the issue

00:29:20.460 about that

00:29:20.960 there was one female loo 1.00

00:29:22.660 in the House of Commons

00:29:23.580 because of course

00:29:24.600 there were no female MPs 1.00

00:29:25.900 it was probably there

00:29:26.680 for the cleaner

00:29:27.160 or the caterer

00:29:28.000 or something

00:29:28.400 and now of course

00:29:29.600 there are more female MPs 0.99

00:29:30.860 that they want more loos

00:29:31.660 but honestly

00:29:32.500 I would fall asleep

00:29:33.280 in the middle

00:29:33.800 of complaining about that

00:29:35.020 I mean not if I was

00:29:35.980 a female MP 0.93

00:29:36.640 but it just isn't

00:29:38.740 on my radar

00:29:39.540 but it's clearly

00:29:40.920 an indication

00:29:41.700 of the fact

00:29:42.760 that women were shut out

00:29:43.820 of much public life

00:29:44.620 they were

00:29:45.100 but is it still

00:29:46.860 sexism today

00:29:47.960 that uniforms

00:29:48.780 are not made

00:29:49.660 for women

00:29:50.260 in the same way

00:29:50.880 that they are for men 0.99

00:29:51.460 I think that there's

00:29:52.340 different ways

00:29:53.140 in which you can

00:29:54.100 put women 1.00

00:29:55.560 off a particular

00:29:57.400 trade

00:29:58.480 particular profession

00:29:59.560 you know

00:30:01.100 there are extreme ways

00:30:02.620 and there are subtle ways

00:30:03.620 I mean the extreme way

00:30:05.360 was the

00:30:06.580 Montreal Massacre

00:30:08.360 of 1989

00:30:09.780 in which 14 female

00:30:11.680 engineering students

00:30:12.700 were shot dead

00:30:13.640 who was effectively

00:30:15.440 the first incel

00:30:16.480 that we ever heard

00:30:17.640 about

00:30:18.060 resented women

00:30:19.200 because they had

00:30:20.100 shut him out

00:30:20.680 of the profession

00:30:21.240 he felt he was

00:30:22.140 entitled to

00:30:22.920 and that's a really

00:30:24.080 extreme example

00:30:25.000 of how there's

00:30:26.460 this sense of

00:30:26.960 male entitlement 0.97

00:30:27.740 which means that

00:30:28.880 women will feel 1.00

00:30:29.480 less entitled

00:30:30.300 yeah all of that

00:30:32.140 I'm behind you

00:30:32.920 completely

00:30:33.540 100%

00:30:34.160 I just

00:30:34.620 it's part of the

00:30:36.360 conversation that's

00:30:37.260 ever present in society

00:30:38.440 how whenever there's

00:30:39.280 a disparity

00:30:39.680 like for example

00:30:40.400 there's an issue

00:30:41.080 for black women

00:30:42.840 who are more likely 0.99

00:30:43.700 to die giving birth 0.86

00:30:44.640 and it's automatically

00:30:45.600 assumed that that's

00:30:46.420 because of racism

00:30:47.180 is it?

00:30:48.660 we don't know

00:30:49.460 I mean people

00:30:50.040 have different

00:30:50.500 biological things

00:30:51.540 there's different

00:30:52.020 things going on

00:30:52.620 and also of course

00:30:53.300 ethnic minorities

00:30:54.660 like me

00:30:55.420 and immigrants

00:30:55.860 like me

00:30:56.220 are a tiny

00:30:57.060 minority of the

00:30:57.780 population

00:30:58.220 so of course

00:30:58.840 the default setting

00:30:59.720 would be

00:31:00.600 for the people

00:31:02.080 who've been here

00:31:02.780 for thousands of years

00:31:03.720 I mean give you

00:31:04.140 an example

00:31:04.520 when I go to the

00:31:05.220 dentist

00:31:05.500 they can never

00:31:06.560 knock me out

00:31:07.380 knock the jaw 1.00

00:31:08.160 out properly

00:31:08.820 because I've got

00:31:09.600 an eastern

00:31:10.060 European jaw

00:31:10.780 structure

00:31:11.180 and it was only

00:31:12.180 when I met

00:31:12.860 a dentist

00:31:13.280 who understood

00:31:13.900 this

00:31:14.140 an Indian guy

00:31:14.820 as it happens

00:31:15.280 he knew how to do it

00:31:16.520 he's the first

00:31:17.100 dentist in the UK

00:31:18.000 who could do that

00:31:18.860 is that racism

00:31:20.500 against Russians 1.00

00:31:21.480 or whatever

00:31:21.920 you just reminded me

00:31:22.900 of something

00:31:23.280 when I first met

00:31:24.300 the woman 0.98

00:31:25.160 who was

00:31:25.540 my partner's mother

00:31:27.340 which was back

00:31:27.880 in 1987

00:31:28.640 and they're

00:31:30.260 excuse me

00:31:30.980 Polish Jews

00:31:31.760 and I have

00:31:32.540 heritage from

00:31:33.940 Russia

00:31:34.620 they

00:31:36.780 she said

00:31:37.640 oh yes

00:31:38.060 I could tell you

00:31:39.060 had Russian heritage

00:31:39.880 you've got a very

00:31:40.480 square jaw

00:31:41.180 and I thought

00:31:41.500 thanks very much

00:31:42.340 thanks ever so much

00:31:44.640 but I never had

00:31:46.160 any trouble

00:31:46.560 with the dentist

00:31:47.080 but

00:31:47.420 do you see

00:31:48.420 what I'm saying

00:31:48.980 right

00:31:49.380 no I understand

00:31:49.980 and I think

00:31:50.680 that that happened

00:31:51.240 with Covid

00:31:51.760 also

00:31:52.440 where

00:31:52.880 one thing

00:31:54.520 was very clear

00:31:55.200 the reason why

00:31:56.300 so many people

00:31:57.160 of colour

00:31:57.420 who were dying

00:31:57.860 in the beginning

00:31:58.340 in the

00:31:59.500 who were health

00:32:00.340 workers

00:32:00.640 is because

00:32:01.240 of the proportion

00:32:02.140 of those

00:32:03.400 who are

00:32:04.260 domestic minorities

00:32:05.220 that work

00:32:05.960 in particular jobs

00:32:07.000 at particular levels

00:32:07.900 in the health service

00:32:09.200 and that tells

00:32:09.760 its own story

00:32:10.540 but then there

00:32:11.540 started to become

00:32:12.420 this discourse

00:32:13.640 about how

00:32:14.260 Covid was almost

00:32:15.600 racist itself

00:32:17.020 by targeting

00:32:18.060 people of colour 0.95

00:32:18.720 and black people

00:32:19.440 and obviously 0.58

00:32:21.500 you have to look

00:32:22.140 right behind

00:32:23.080 the story

00:32:23.740 but there was

00:32:24.660 much of that

00:32:26.160 and I think

00:32:26.460 The Guardian

00:32:26.860 ran several pieces

00:32:27.880 that just didn't

00:32:28.700 stand up

00:32:29.420 and it was

00:32:30.760 very

00:32:31.440 histrionic

00:32:32.620 and it was

00:32:33.100 dripping in

00:32:34.640 the kind of

00:32:35.440 sentiment

00:32:35.940 that isn't

00:32:37.120 helpful

00:32:37.480 so yeah

00:32:39.200 I mean I agree

00:32:39.840 with your broad point

00:32:41.100 Francis take over

00:32:42.180 me

00:32:42.320 I've asked

00:32:42.620 about 20

00:32:43.120 questions in a row

00:32:44.080 so we've

00:32:45.180 covered firefighters

00:32:46.100 you had bad cop

00:32:47.320 you haven't talked

00:32:48.500 about firefighters

00:32:49.320 bad firefighter

00:32:50.800 here's the good

00:32:51.300 firefighter

00:32:51.700 okay so

00:32:52.620 why is it

00:32:54.440 let's go back

00:32:55.240 into this

00:32:55.700 because this is

00:32:56.220 important

00:32:56.680 why is it

00:32:57.740 that feminism 0.99

00:32:58.920 focuses on

00:33:00.620 the trivial

00:33:01.140 the banal

00:33:02.380 the things

00:33:03.600 that I consider

00:33:04.340 to be unimportant

00:33:05.340 why does it

00:33:06.440 ignore the very

00:33:07.440 real and the

00:33:08.200 very important

00:33:08.940 issues that affect

00:33:09.840 women for 0.85

00:33:10.920 instance FGM

00:33:11.800 I've got my

00:33:12.760 own opinions

00:33:13.240 about that

00:33:13.880 but why is it

00:33:14.960 we don't talk

00:33:15.640 about this

00:33:16.020 in a full

00:33:16.520 frank and

00:33:17.020 honest manner

00:33:17.620 okay well

00:33:19.160 there's two

00:33:19.680 answers to

00:33:20.680 that question

00:33:21.400 one is that

00:33:22.360 many of us

00:33:23.080 do so

00:33:24.320 I'm connected

00:33:25.080 to feminist

00:33:25.880 networks all

00:33:26.940 over the world

00:33:27.540 almost I mean

00:33:28.480 even in Saudi

00:33:29.280 Arabia there

00:33:30.680 are active

00:33:31.520 feminists

00:33:32.220 wow

00:33:32.760 and you know

00:33:33.860 everywhere in the

00:33:34.800 world because

00:33:35.400 of course there

00:33:35.920 is no country

00:33:36.560 in the world

00:33:37.120 that is free

00:33:38.100 from the type

00:33:39.100 of issues

00:33:39.740 that we've

00:33:40.560 been talking

00:33:40.940 about now

00:33:41.560 rape is in

00:33:43.040 existence in

00:33:44.040 the richest

00:33:44.680 and most equal

00:33:45.700 countries right

00:33:46.960 through to the

00:33:47.940 worst to live

00:33:48.740 if you're a

00:33:49.580 woman 0.99

00:33:49.780 so those of

00:33:52.700 us that

00:33:53.100 campaign to

00:33:54.040 end male

00:33:54.380 violence in

00:33:56.160 all our

00:33:56.900 different kind

00:33:57.720 of roles are

00:33:59.780 very loud and

00:34:00.660 vocal and we

00:34:01.360 have actually

00:34:02.100 created material

00:34:02.940 change we've

00:34:03.820 introduced

00:34:04.120 legislation we

00:34:05.540 monitor those

00:34:06.260 that are supposed

00:34:06.660 to implement

00:34:07.180 the law we've

00:34:09.020 raised awareness

00:34:09.820 all of that

00:34:10.720 but there are

00:34:13.040 also those

00:34:13.680 feminists that 1.00

00:34:14.240 don't really

00:34:14.760 want to get

00:34:15.260 their hands

00:34:15.700 dirty so

00:34:17.360 they might

00:34:19.180 look at the

00:34:19.680 softer issues

00:34:20.620 so they spend

00:34:21.540 all of their

00:34:22.000 time bleating

00:34:22.820 on and I'm

00:34:24.640 going to be so

00:34:25.180 hated for this

00:34:26.000 about the type

00:34:27.480 of maternity

00:34:28.600 cover in very

00:34:30.260 elite professions

00:34:31.180 now it goes

00:34:32.580 without saying

00:34:33.240 that I believe

00:34:34.060 that women 0.97

00:34:34.500 should have

00:34:35.540 maternity

00:34:36.340 cover and

00:34:37.540 maternity

00:34:38.100 benefits but

00:34:39.500 it's the type

00:34:40.260 of women

00:34:40.800 for example

00:34:41.560 when I was

00:34:42.040 doing some

00:34:44.220 consultancy in

00:34:45.640 a charity that

00:34:46.980 deals with the

00:34:47.580 trafficking and

00:34:49.160 sexual exploitation 0.95

00:34:49.940 of women into 0.98

00:34:50.680 the UK

00:34:51.060 there was one

00:34:52.860 woman in this

00:34:53.800 charity and

00:34:54.540 oh was she

00:34:55.540 entitled and

00:34:57.140 she had

00:34:58.240 three babies

00:35:00.600 in a row

00:35:01.200 very very

00:35:03.640 deliberately

00:35:05.140 within a

00:35:07.820 time frame

00:35:08.660 so that she

00:35:09.400 would get the

00:35:10.000 maximum

00:35:10.740 benefits and

00:35:12.900 maternity leave 1.00

00:35:14.200 at a charity

00:35:15.480 that was failing

00:35:16.420 because it was

00:35:17.560 underfunded

00:35:18.200 where the women 1.00

00:35:19.860 who the charity

00:35:21.300 was serving

00:35:21.940 were the most

00:35:22.880 disenfranchised and

00:35:24.000 impoverished

00:35:24.600 imaginable

00:35:25.460 and this

00:35:26.520 extremely privileged

00:35:27.940 woman milked it 0.95

00:35:29.180 she had her own

00:35:29.780 low stool with

00:35:30.520 her everywhere

00:35:30.860 she went

00:35:31.320 she was going

00:35:32.200 to the Pilates

00:35:32.960 that was on

00:35:33.640 offer she was

00:35:34.680 taking time off

00:35:35.580 every single

00:35:36.680 minute that she

00:35:38.000 could to go to

00:35:39.000 her appointments

00:35:40.140 with the doula

00:35:40.940 or whatever

00:35:41.580 and I was so

00:35:43.320 angry about that

00:35:44.420 and yet if I'd

00:35:45.520 have said

00:35:46.000 you should put a

00:35:47.920 cap on how

00:35:49.100 many

00:35:49.600 traunches of

00:35:52.380 maternity leave 1.00

00:35:53.240 these women should 1.00

00:35:53.940 have I would have

00:35:54.560 been seen as

00:35:55.140 Hitler of course 1.00

00:35:56.000 because it's never

00:35:56.780 a mid-range

00:35:57.400 dictator we go

00:35:58.380 straight to Hitler 0.93

00:35:59.160 and that really

00:36:02.820 winds me up

00:36:03.820 but it would be

00:36:05.320 extremely unfair

00:36:07.200 and actually

00:36:08.000 neoliberal of me

00:36:09.200 to say

00:36:09.780 you should put a

00:36:10.860 cap on this

00:36:11.520 because of course

00:36:13.020 these benefits

00:36:14.440 are supposed to be

00:36:15.220 for all women

00:36:15.860 but she didn't 0.54

00:36:16.780 need that

00:36:17.480 she used that

00:36:18.680 charity

00:36:19.160 knowing if she

00:36:20.080 went to the

00:36:20.460 private sector

00:36:21.180 she would get

00:36:22.580 far less

00:36:23.160 they'd be far

00:36:23.960 less generous

00:36:24.560 with her about it

00:36:25.460 that isn't a

00:36:26.700 feminist thing to 1.00

00:36:27.400 do in my view

00:36:28.180 so I think

00:36:29.100 sometimes it's

00:36:29.640 complicated

00:36:30.100 but then there's

00:36:31.380 other women 0.95

00:36:31.800 that just

00:36:32.340 bleat on about

00:36:33.920 things that you

00:36:35.220 think well this

00:36:35.820 is only going to

00:36:36.700 benefit you if you

00:36:37.880 solve this problem

00:36:39.200 this actually doesn't

00:36:40.400 apply to most

00:36:41.300 women 1.00

00:36:41.640 most women aren't 1.00

00:36:42.840 in the types of

00:36:43.720 jobs that you are

00:36:44.640 talking about

00:36:45.300 wanting to be

00:36:45.980 paid more in

00:36:46.800 or have more

00:36:47.620 annual leave from

00:36:48.720 or be able to

00:36:49.720 leave every day

00:36:50.360 at three o'clock

00:36:50.980 to go and pick up

00:36:52.020 little Millie and

00:36:53.440 little Oscar

00:36:53.980 you know from

00:36:54.940 their fee paying

00:36:55.740 school so on

00:36:58.060 on a class

00:36:58.820 basis you know

00:37:00.700 if we look at

00:37:01.280 the issue of

00:37:01.980 class some of

00:37:03.920 the most elite

00:37:04.940 women will 1.00

00:37:06.500 practice a

00:37:07.100 feminism that 1.00

00:37:07.800 is only ever

00:37:08.660 going to be

00:37:09.220 beneficial to

00:37:10.480 them and

00:37:11.200 their

00:37:11.660 their

00:37:14.000 strata

00:37:15.300 society

00:37:15.800 exactly

00:37:16.240 hey

00:37:17.860 Constantine

00:37:18.580 do you love

00:37:19.560 trigonometry

00:37:20.200 of course

00:37:21.020 incredible interviews

00:37:22.380 hilarious live

00:37:23.640 streams

00:37:23.960 hard-hitting

00:37:24.940 satire

00:37:25.520 plus my

00:37:26.600 handsome jawline

00:37:27.520 whatever takes

00:37:28.240 away from your

00:37:29.000 hairline

00:37:29.520 but if you do

00:37:30.320 love trigonometry

00:37:31.100 and you want to

00:37:32.100 support us

00:37:32.720 there's only one

00:37:33.860 place to do that

00:37:34.820 and that's on

00:37:35.900 Locals

00:37:36.420 yes Locals is a

00:37:37.900 brilliant platform

00:37:38.680 that has been

00:37:39.380 incredibly supportive

00:37:40.440 to our show

00:37:41.340 and other

00:37:42.060 problematic creators

00:37:43.720 the great thing

00:37:44.600 about Locals

00:37:45.320 is that it's a

00:37:46.000 community for

00:37:46.840 people who love

00:37:47.940 trigonometry

00:37:48.620 that's right

00:37:49.200 it's a place for

00:37:49.880 you to hang out

00:37:50.560 with like-minded

00:37:51.220 people share

00:37:51.980 thoughts memes

00:37:52.760 and discuss the

00:37:53.520 show you can

00:37:54.280 enjoy it for free

00:37:55.200 but it also gives

00:37:56.600 you the option of

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00:38:00.960 want to give more

00:38:01.700 you can we have

00:38:02.960 incredible rewards

00:38:03.980 for our higher tier

00:38:04.780 supporters as well

00:38:05.760 we've got everything

00:38:06.560 from mugs

00:38:07.200 monthly group calls

00:38:08.280 and one-on-two

00:38:09.540 chats with me and

00:38:10.560 KK

00:38:10.980 get in

00:38:11.660 join our community

00:38:12.900 by hitting the link

00:38:14.120 in the description

00:38:14.920 and the pinned

00:38:15.780 comment below

00:38:16.480 see you there guys

00:38:17.680 what I also find

00:38:20.320 interesting is how

00:38:21.880 they don't want to

00:38:23.820 this particular brand

00:38:25.080 of feminist doesn't 1.00

00:38:25.880 want to criticise

00:38:26.920 cultures or practices

00:38:29.580 in other cultures

00:38:30.940 because they're

00:38:31.860 terrified of being

00:38:32.900 seen as racist

00:38:33.780 and not as an ally

00:38:35.140 and you go well

00:38:36.500 that to me is racism

00:38:38.400 because you're not

00:38:39.020 treating everyone

00:38:39.740 equally

00:38:40.160 well it's worse

00:38:41.380 even than not

00:38:42.040 wanting to speak

00:38:42.700 out about it

00:38:43.340 they actually

00:38:44.220 endorse some of

00:38:45.080 these practices

00:38:45.720 they will twist

00:38:47.760 something in an

00:38:49.380 Orwellian manner

00:38:50.460 that's quite staggering

00:38:51.500 for example

00:38:52.200 they'll support the

00:38:53.120 notion that the

00:38:54.160 full face veil

00:38:55.000 is empowering to

00:38:56.640 women and it's a 1.00

00:38:57.460 fuck you to the 1.00

00:38:58.120 west 1.00

00:38:58.480 when in fact there

00:38:59.740 are women in

00:39:00.340 Pakistan, Saudi

00:39:01.180 Arabia, Bradford

00:39:02.380 that are being

00:39:03.720 coerced into wearing

00:39:05.200 the full face veil

00:39:06.160 who are fighting

00:39:07.760 with other feminists 0.94

00:39:10.360 to stop that being

00:39:11.900 imposed on girls

00:39:12.800 because it is an

00:39:13.340 infringement of

00:39:14.340 their freedom

00:39:14.780 and it is an

00:39:15.860 insignia of

00:39:16.960 women's oppression 0.99

00:39:17.640 it is not a symbol 1.00

00:39:19.040 of fuck you to the 1.00

00:39:19.920 west 1.00

00:39:20.180 I mean it may well

00:39:21.100 be that that's the

00:39:21.760 sentiment that a

00:39:22.500 particular individual

00:39:23.360 wearing the full

00:39:24.180 face veil feels

00:39:25.360 but it's imposed

00:39:26.580 upon a woman

00:39:27.640 and another example

00:39:29.260 a few years ago

00:39:30.240 I read a tiny

00:39:32.980 little news item

00:39:35.040 in the English

00:39:36.640 Norwegian newspaper

00:39:38.200 don't even ask me

00:39:39.160 why I was reading

00:39:39.840 the English speaking

00:39:40.520 Norwegian

00:39:40.900 I must have been

00:39:41.460 really bored that

00:39:42.320 day

00:39:42.580 and it was that

00:39:44.060 Norway is about to

00:39:44.920 become the first

00:39:45.500 Jew free country 0.99

00:39:46.780 in Europe 0.94

00:39:47.740 Jews are leaving 1.00

00:39:50.360 getting out of

00:39:51.440 Norway

00:39:51.760 the anti-Semitism

00:39:52.540 is terrible

00:39:53.140 and I thought

00:39:54.740 oh I'll go and

00:39:56.000 have a look at that

00:39:56.640 because I hadn't

00:39:57.760 heard

00:39:58.140 I had some

00:39:59.020 contacts there

00:39:59.700 and obviously

00:40:01.640 I mean it was

00:40:02.440 they were focusing

00:40:03.300 on visible Jews

00:40:04.680 so religious Jews 0.99

00:40:05.600 in the main

00:40:06.160 Hasids 1.00

00:40:07.440 I assume

00:40:08.580 so I trots along

00:40:11.580 to Norway

00:40:12.040 and went to

00:40:14.160 the one

00:40:15.940 kosher restaurant

00:40:16.900 which turned out

00:40:17.640 to be a

00:40:18.020 Brickaback store

00:40:19.060 with a table

00:40:20.260 that you could

00:40:20.980 sit six around

00:40:21.840 that served

00:40:22.800 on a Wednesday

00:40:23.940 and a Monday

00:40:25.160 kosher chicken

00:40:26.500 whatever

00:40:27.340 talked to the

00:40:28.760 people there

00:40:29.360 that run the

00:40:29.980 shop and they

00:40:30.920 told me what

00:40:31.640 the story was

00:40:32.340 so I just had

00:40:33.480 it in my head

00:40:34.240 that were these

00:40:35.380 groups of

00:40:35.980 overt anti-Semites

00:40:37.240 raging around

00:40:38.240 Oslo

00:40:38.780 saying Jews 0.87

00:40:40.500 out

00:40:40.840 and in fact

00:40:43.180 what it was

00:40:44.000 was that the

00:40:44.860 influx of

00:40:46.300 young men

00:40:48.280 who were coming

00:40:49.620 from Middle

00:40:50.380 Eastern countries

00:40:51.380 who were very

00:40:53.720 very angry

00:40:54.300 about the

00:40:55.640 state of Israel

00:40:56.340 and about

00:40:57.980 Israelis

00:40:58.420 because obviously

00:40:59.160 they couldn't

00:40:59.780 distinguish between

00:41:00.700 the policies of

00:41:01.880 the government

00:41:02.280 and Israeli

00:41:03.600 citizens

00:41:04.120 and further

00:41:05.640 they couldn't

00:41:06.240 distinguish between

00:41:07.100 Israeli Jewish

00:41:07.860 citizens and

00:41:08.860 the Jewish

00:41:10.080 diaspora

00:41:10.660 were burning

00:41:14.060 Israeli flags

00:41:15.100 outside the

00:41:15.680 embassy and all

00:41:16.420 of that kind of

00:41:16.980 carry on

00:41:17.480 and the white

00:41:19.800 Norwegian woke

00:41:20.840 men

00:41:21.280 and some

00:41:23.140 women but 1.00

00:41:23.560 mainly men

00:41:24.220 saw their

00:41:25.920 brown brothers

00:41:26.920 Muslims

00:41:27.560 who were

00:41:28.340 clearly the

00:41:28.880 oppressed

00:41:29.360 Palestinian Arabs

00:41:30.820 and wanted to

00:41:32.060 support them

00:41:32.660 that kind of

00:41:33.220 knee-jerk thing

00:41:34.380 of not even

00:41:35.220 doing their

00:41:35.780 research

00:41:36.360 and looking at

00:41:37.780 what they were

00:41:38.300 supporting

00:41:38.740 and they were

00:41:40.080 marching through

00:41:40.880 Oslo on a

00:41:41.680 regular basis

00:41:42.720 behind angry

00:41:45.360 men

00:41:45.840 with signs in

00:41:47.680 Arabic saying 1.00

00:41:48.420 kill the Jews 1.00

00:41:49.780 now they didn't 1.00

00:41:51.140 know because they

00:41:52.040 didn't read Arabic

00:41:52.860 but actually they

00:41:54.340 could have done a

00:41:54.920 little bit of

00:41:55.360 research to see

00:41:56.060 what they were

00:41:56.480 supporting couldn't

00:41:57.260 they and so

00:41:58.420 what the Jewish

00:41:59.520 community in

00:42:00.240 Oslo and the

00:42:01.640 rest of Norway

00:42:02.400 were thinking

00:42:04.020 was okay we

00:42:05.800 don't even have

00:42:06.300 the white liberals

00:42:06.860 on our side

00:42:07.460 anymore Jews 0.99

00:42:08.820 have always had

00:42:09.980 those Gentile 1.00

00:42:11.400 liberals that

00:42:12.900 will be appalled

00:42:14.040 at anti-Semitism

00:42:14.760 we don't even

00:42:15.860 have that we're

00:42:16.520 going and you

00:42:18.240 know of course

00:42:18.700 ironically many

00:42:19.480 of them migrated

00:42:20.880 to Israel

00:42:21.420 it was what

00:42:22.340 happens when you

00:42:22.900 have an

00:42:23.180 impression Olympics

00:42:23.900 people can pip

00:42:25.000 you to the

00:42:25.740 thing right and

00:42:26.580 that's what's

00:42:26.980 happened

00:42:27.260 no it's but

00:42:29.660 again why is

00:42:32.440 it and I

00:42:34.060 feel very

00:42:34.700 passionate about

00:42:35.540 this because we're

00:42:36.300 not talking about

00:42:37.300 the issues that

00:42:37.940 really impact

00:42:38.820 women we're just 1.00

00:42:39.900 not and what you

00:42:41.360 have is this

00:42:42.240 surface level of 0.99

00:42:43.640 crap which is 0.99

00:42:44.980 being fed to us 1.00

00:42:46.140 and that's what we

00:42:47.380 think feminism is 1.00

00:42:48.440 that's what we

00:42:49.820 think it is and

00:42:50.520 it's not 0.99

00:42:51.040 well it's bullshit 0.99

00:42:51.780 that's why I 0.99

00:42:52.380 wrote my book and

00:42:53.360 that's why I

00:42:53.800 called it

00:42:54.140 feminism for 0.99

00:42:54.780 women because 1.00

00:42:55.580 what we've ended

00:42:56.120 up with is a

00:42:56.880 feminism that 1.00

00:42:57.540 benefits men more

00:42:58.420 than it does

00:42:58.840 women it's all 1.00

00:43:00.000 this pole dancing 0.99

00:43:00.740 for exercise sex

00:43:01.920 work is work

00:43:02.740 trans women are 0.59

00:43:03.700 women all of

00:43:05.260 those issues are

00:43:06.240 really crucial for

00:43:07.320 feminists to get a 1.00

00:43:08.200 proper grip of

00:43:09.460 so take the issue

00:43:10.960 of prostitution

00:43:11.780 the discourse around

00:43:14.180 this from the

00:43:15.360 faux feminists 1.00

00:43:17.520 ash sarkar and

00:43:19.520 all of her mates 0.97

00:43:20.480 is sex work is 0.98

00:43:22.060 work it's a job

00:43:25.160 it's a profession

00:43:26.620 I mean when I

00:43:27.700 did a talk on

00:43:28.660 prostitution and

00:43:29.380 the horrors of the 0.99

00:43:30.080 global sex trade

00:43:31.000 at a feminist 0.78

00:43:32.580 conference in October

00:43:33.580 there were a load of

00:43:34.860 blue fringes outside

00:43:36.000 banging and screaming

00:43:37.060 at the window

00:43:37.580 shouting blow jobs

00:43:38.640 are real jobs

00:43:39.440 what right you

00:43:41.780 don't you don't

00:43:43.160 do it then mate

00:43:44.260 you go and get an 1.00

00:43:46.700 unwashed dick into 1.00

00:43:47.500 your mouth and tell 1.00

00:43:48.360 me that you'd rather 0.94

00:43:49.140 do that eight times

00:43:50.080 a day than be a

00:43:51.600 researcher or an

00:43:52.560 academic or a

00:43:53.340 journalist or whatever 0.97

00:43:54.140 why the hell are you 0.52

00:43:55.380 supporting something 0.61

00:43:56.340 that has such a

00:43:58.040 horrendous effect on

00:43:59.880 millions of women 1.00

00:44:00.780 around the world

00:44:01.760 and sets a

00:44:03.560 context where

00:44:05.100 women's bodies are 1.00

00:44:06.340 seen as orifices to

00:44:08.140 rent and to sell

00:44:09.300 you know it's an

00:44:10.700 appalling issue that

00:44:12.600 many sex trade 0.98

00:44:13.480 survivors so

00:44:14.180 women who have 0.88

00:44:14.640 actually done

00:44:15.460 prostitution are

00:44:17.220 now thankfully

00:44:18.080 educating the world

00:44:19.360 about the realities

00:44:20.300 of this you know I

00:44:21.680 know loads of the

00:44:22.300 women I've interviewed

00:44:22.880 hundreds of them and

00:44:24.300 they will say look when

00:44:25.220 I was in prostitution I

00:44:26.840 used to say hey I 0.99

00:44:27.700 love my work fuck off 0.99

00:44:29.040 don't you dare judge 1.00

00:44:29.960 me of course you do I

00:44:31.600 mean you're you're

00:44:32.280 coping in in a

00:44:34.000 horrific situation but

00:44:35.880 when they get out and

00:44:37.000 if they're supported

00:44:37.680 enough to be able to

00:44:38.480 do that from other

00:44:39.280 women then they'll 1.00

00:44:40.640 say it was hell and

00:44:43.480 no woman should have 1.00

00:44:44.260 to go through this

00:44:45.080 and yeah of course

00:44:46.220 you've got the odd

00:44:46.900 exception there's

00:44:47.540 always an exception

00:44:48.220 isn't there the

00:44:49.180 Brooke Magnanti

00:44:50.020 Belle de Jour type 0.80

00:44:51.220 she's you know 0.94

00:44:52.420 funding her PhD she 0.76

00:44:54.240 prostitutes from 0.93

00:44:55.520 five-star hotels and 0.99

00:44:57.680 Park Lane she's

00:44:59.880 totally atypical

00:45:01.840 she's a tourist right

00:45:03.680 and yet she speaks

00:45:05.000 with authority just

00:45:05.980 like those women who 1.00

00:45:06.780 aren't feminists 1.00

00:45:07.740 but call themselves

00:45:09.160 feminists I mean I've 1.00

00:45:10.420 known women who say

00:45:11.900 I'm a feminist I did 1.00

00:45:13.380 sex work blow jobs 1.00

00:45:14.800 are real jobs and

00:45:16.360 we look into what

00:45:18.100 she's actually been

00:45:19.320 involved in she was

00:45:21.100 doing her doctoral

00:45:23.040 studies on phone sex

00:45:25.280 lines so she sat on

00:45:26.700 the end of a phone 0.82

00:45:27.260 sex line for six 0.52

00:45:28.100 weeks saying yes I've 1.00

00:45:30.060 got my tits out have 1.00

00:45:32.080 you got your dick out 1.00

00:45:33.360 big boy 1.00

00:45:34.020 hopefully not with

00:45:35.480 that intonation Julie

00:45:36.560 because that's not a

00:45:37.340 very good service

00:45:38.340 is that not a habit at

00:45:39.880 all I don't think so

00:45:41.460 I mean maybe some

00:45:44.260 people might like

00:45:45.160 you're a big boy

00:45:45.940 I didn't want to

00:45:48.260 excite your viewers

00:45:49.140 you've got to put some

00:45:50.780 excite your viewers

00:45:51.660 I have a friend who

00:45:53.340 when I make the

00:45:54.200 wanking sign she 1.00

00:45:55.160 always says I'm not

00:45:55.800 doing it right and I

00:45:56.520 say how should I

00:45:57.240 know I've been a

00:45:58.460 lesbian since forever

00:45:59.600 I see what you're

00:46:03.020 saying they're not

00:46:04.000 people who've

00:46:04.800 experienced the

00:46:05.620 horrors of the

00:46:06.500 sex trade in the

00:46:07.520 way that the women 1.00

00:46:08.600 you're trying to

00:46:09.460 protect and stand up

00:46:10.580 for and defend and

00:46:11.480 advocate for actually

00:46:13.180 experience so if you

00:46:14.520 get an academic who

00:46:15.860 who sits on the

00:46:16.680 phone line for a few

00:46:17.560 months talking that's

00:46:19.240 not the same as you

00:46:21.240 know being a street 0.96

00:46:22.080 prostitute with all 0.98

00:46:23.060 of that 0.59

00:46:23.460 more than that even

00:46:26.200 some of them just

00:46:27.120 masquerade

00:46:28.460 some of them lie

00:46:30.140 some of them are I

00:46:31.380 really do call them

00:46:32.340 tourists in it they

00:46:33.760 they nip in and out

00:46:34.760 of it and then they

00:46:35.560 adopt the label so I

00:46:37.360 was in Nevada where in

00:46:39.680 certain counties within

00:46:40.900 the state of Nevada

00:46:41.820 they've had legal

00:46:43.400 brothels forever 0.87

00:46:44.320 beginning with a gold

00:46:46.520 rush and of course

00:46:48.080 Dennis Hoth the biggest

00:46:51.160 pimp in the world who 0.90

00:46:52.100 thankfully is dead now 0.97

00:46:53.260 who was a real piece of

00:46:55.240 work who ran these

00:46:56.140 brothels and terrorized

00:46:58.660 women and he he was 0.98

00:47:01.280 you know seen as just

00:47:02.440 this great businessman

00:47:03.600 he was normalizing the

00:47:05.240 sex trade he was

00:47:06.080 making it into a great

00:47:07.060 profession and he said

00:47:09.860 yes when I asked if I

00:47:10.840 could go and research

00:47:12.160 his brothels

00:47:13.060 clearly hadn't googled

00:47:15.120 me

00:47:15.420 I rock up and he's

00:47:18.760 trying to be Mr.

00:47:20.000 Charming and said you

00:47:22.780 can interview my girls

00:47:23.880 brothels but he'd

00:47:25.060 primed them to you

00:47:26.700 know he these women 0.99

00:47:28.000 they they live in these

00:47:30.660 brothels for months on

00:47:31.600 end they're not there

00:47:32.940 because there's another

00:47:33.580 choice waiting for them

00:47:34.660 they're there because

00:47:35.460 that's the only way they

00:47:36.260 can make money and they

00:47:37.120 need that money and many

00:47:38.700 of them are double

00:47:39.240 pimped so their pimps send

00:47:40.520 them to the legal

00:47:41.160 brothels where the pimps

00:47:42.940 are businessmen so it's a

00:47:44.640 horrific system and the

00:47:46.620 women are no safer than 1.00

00:47:48.560 than under any other kind

00:47:51.100 of you know criminalized

00:47:52.120 regime so when I was

00:47:55.840 there and saw the

00:47:57.740 reality of it and the

00:47:58.560 women told me it was 0.99

00:47:59.300 like a one of them said 1.00

00:48:00.420 it was a pussy 1.00

00:48:01.000 penitentiary you can't 1.00

00:48:03.260 even leave the brothel

00:48:04.340 unless you're with an

00:48:04.940 assistant pimped going to

00:48:06.220 town you have your blood

00:48:08.480 test every week to see if

00:48:10.800 you've got any STIs and

00:48:12.840 your name with the results

00:48:14.100 are put up for all to see

00:48:15.620 at the reception area you

00:48:17.260 do a line-up when the

00:48:18.360 johns the punters come in

00:48:19.740 and you have to stand

00:48:20.620 there not smiling wait

00:48:22.200 until they pick you I

00:48:23.260 mean just like cattle and

00:48:25.560 in the meantime there's

00:48:28.300 somebody at the University

00:48:29.560 of Nevada who's doing her

00:48:31.660 PhD on sex work and in

00:48:34.740 order to research it she

00:48:37.860 goes into the brothels turns

00:48:41.840 a few tricks does a few

00:48:43.560 johns and interviews the

00:48:46.140 women and then leaves and 0.96

00:48:47.760 completes her PhD and says

00:48:49.200 hey I'm a sex worker and

00:48:51.980 guess what her PhD was on

00:48:53.440 it was on the ability of 0.87

00:48:56.880 women to orgasm during sex 1.00

00:48:59.720 work and she found that if 0.95

00:49:01.900 you're over 40 you're more

00:49:03.240 likely to orgasm during sex 0.78

00:49:05.080 work than if you're under 40

00:49:06.920 I think that's the way

00:49:07.720 around but imagine doing that

00:49:11.780 imagine taking years out of your

00:49:15.780 life to show something that is

00:49:20.600 blatantly untrue by asking a

00:49:24.300 woman do you enjoy when you have 1.00

00:49:27.200 sex with a punter well guess what 0.99

00:49:28.580 they're going to say I love it I 0.99

00:49:31.040 love my job and this is now a PhD

00:49:34.940 thesis that will be read by young

00:49:38.580 students who are being fed this 1.00

00:49:40.760 sex workers work bullshit while 1.00

00:49:43.680 books like mine on prostitution and 1.00

00:49:45.960 other critical feminists are having 1.00

00:49:48.740 trigger warnings put on them in some

00:49:50.560 universities because we say it's

00:49:52.340 abuse of women it's a human rights 1.00

00:49:54.080 violation it's crazy this is such a

00:49:57.200 good point Julie because if you

00:49:59.480 remember the case of Durham

00:50:01.520 University which was now correct me if

00:50:04.800 I'm getting it wrong but they were

00:50:06.120 advising students how to go into

00:50:09.380 sex work and how to do it safely 0.98

00:50:11.700 that's right and these are girls of 0.99

00:50:13.540 18 19 20 now they may be adults but

00:50:17.240 you're not telling me that someone of

00:50:18.500 18 19 is aware of the full

00:50:20.940 ramifications of this type of work

00:50:22.880 particularly in the internet age and if

00:50:25.180 that was my daughter I would

00:50:26.320 personally drive oh I can't drive I'd

00:50:28.120 get the train myself in order to

00:50:30.160 strangle them yeah because to me that

00:50:32.440 is abuse why is it we have just

00:50:34.880 normalized this and all of a sudden

00:50:36.780 we're like hey 18 19 year old girl

00:50:38.740 yeah come in yeah exactly mainly

00:50:41.480 because of academics but they are many

00:50:44.100 of them take funding directly from the

00:50:46.460 sex trade to do this research and of 0.98

00:50:49.760 course what the the pimps and the you

00:50:52.480 know the the profiteers want is blanket

00:50:57.560 decriminalization and total

00:50:59.320 normalization because of course they do I

00:51:01.820 mean this is just about profit it's

00:51:03.240 about money for them so for Durham

00:51:05.860 University to say here's how you become

00:51:08.280 safe in sex work is like telling some

00:51:11.860 bloke that you should go and work in an 0.87

00:51:13.360 asbestos ridden factory and here's how

00:51:15.620 to wear proper protective gear it's not

00:51:18.540 safe it's not safe under legalization it's

00:51:21.300 not safe under any regime except for where

00:51:23.220 you're actually throwing the kitchen sink

00:51:25.580 at the women to help them get out and the

00:51:27.820 idea that universities are encouraging

00:51:30.860 this when for many women working class 1.00

00:51:33.940 women the women that could well have 0.97

00:51:36.140 ended up being sexually exploited see

00:51:39.980 education as a way out of that and

00:51:42.640 something to give them better

00:51:43.660 opportunities it's disgraceful and they

00:51:46.440 don't want to do it so the academics in

00:51:48.740 their ivory towers why don't they just set

00:51:50.820 up a brothel why are they on an academic 0.96

00:51:53.120 salary I mean it's an interesting point

00:51:55.860 Julian it's a point again which speaks to

00:51:57.520 so many of the other things we've been

00:52:00.060 discussing on the show for years now which

00:52:01.820 is the gigantic disconnect between the

00:52:06.180 media and the political class and the

00:52:09.060 academic institutions and actual people in

00:52:12.660 the actual real world and you know you saw

00:52:15.500 it with Brexit and as everyone knows

00:52:17.900 Francis and I both voted remain and there

00:52:19.700 was all this stuff about you know we'll be

00:52:22.140 better off by 1% if we stay in and all and

00:52:24.700 and you're just going you people don't

00:52:26.540 understand what actual people in the

00:52:29.580 real world are experiencing and that's

00:52:31.880 why I think there's a lot of skepticism

00:52:33.580 now with about things to do with COVID

00:52:35.540 because you've under I wrote a massive

00:52:37.020 long thread on Twitter about it you've

00:52:39.660 undermined trust in all of these

00:52:41.160 institutions the academia the media the

00:52:43.040 politicians and now you're telling

00:52:44.180 people to do stuff well a lot of them

00:52:45.640 are going well you lied about everything

00:52:46.840 else

00:52:47.280 yeah I mean it's a real worry

00:52:50.400 you know I I think once we know that our

00:52:57.000 politicians can lie to us and not even

00:52:59.000 lie about lying to us then that's it you

00:53:02.280 know we're done for and it used to be that

00:53:05.060 it was a huge scandal when politicians were

00:53:07.480 found out lying now it's just expected

00:53:09.120 and it's becoming more and more Trumpian

00:53:12.460 and that that's the thing that really

00:53:14.580 worries me and you know I feel politically

00:53:16.460 homeless you know I couldn't if there were if 0.99

00:53:19.000 there was a German election tomorrow I'd

00:53:21.320 I'd I think I'd have to force myself to

00:53:23.380 vote Labour but why I mean it's it's a

00:53:26.420 disgrace of a party it doesn't represent

00:53:29.460 working-class people anymore it used to

00:53:32.200 and it it does not in any way and that's

00:53:37.000 why of course so many traditional

00:53:39.180 working-class people like all of my

00:53:40.760 family in my community where I grew up

00:53:42.480 some of them moved to um to UKIP some

00:53:46.140 of them some of them even moved Tory for

00:53:47.940 God's sake I mean that was unthinkable

00:53:49.840 when I was growing up you would never

00:53:51.840 have a Tory anywhere near where we we

00:53:54.840 worked and lived and played and Julie

00:53:56.580 you say the Labour Party used to

00:53:58.200 represent working-class people what

00:54:00.020 period are you talking about because I

00:54:01.560 would imagine there were a lot of people

00:54:02.740 who felt that even Tony Blair coming in

00:54:04.820 was already starting to undermine that

00:54:06.380 but with Tony Blair the argument was

00:54:08.920 well at least he's going to get you

00:54:10.200 elected he's going to get you in power

00:54:11.620 he's going to put money into public

00:54:13.080 services which to be fair to him he did

00:54:15.660 I have a lot of issues with Tony Blair a

00:54:17.700 lot but on that stuff he did deliver

00:54:20.400 for ordinary people there's no question

00:54:21.720 about it but what you've got now is a

00:54:24.800 party that are simultaneously disconnected

00:54:26.840 from working-class people and absolutely 0.98

00:54:30.300 useless when it comes to getting elected 0.98

00:54:32.520 and really bad for women right really bad 0.99

00:54:37.820 Blair really gave a damn about the 0.99

00:54:40.700 northeast he was the first leader I think

00:54:44.700 that really focused on issues that that

00:54:48.480 were usually just stepped over you know

00:54:51.940 Scotland has always been favored over the

00:54:55.440 northeast of England and yet we hear the

00:54:58.580 voices from Scotland way louder than we do

00:55:01.240 the voices from the northeast of England

00:55:02.700 and my community is much worse off but it's a

00:55:09.340 good question when well I mean Blair did bring 0.67

00:55:12.580 in so many policies that helped

00:55:14.320 impoverished and working-class people

00:55:17.880 there's no question about that and I also

00:55:20.980 have issues with him but I think that you

00:55:23.500 know to dismiss somebody's entire body of

00:55:26.820 work is tragic and the Iraq war is no small 0.99

00:55:32.380 thing we we absolutely know that but to throw

00:55:36.160 every single thing out is indicative of the

00:55:39.660 whole cancel culture context where you have

00:55:42.900 someone who has done brilliant work for

00:55:45.600 decades but they're transphobic which is 0.97

00:55:50.260 usually bullshit anyway right and therefore 0.92

00:55:52.860 nothing that they have ever done in the

00:55:55.620 past or to date can ever be considered

00:55:59.040 worthy how the hell did we get to this I mean

00:56:03.480 you know we we see the way that some people have

00:56:09.120 contributed hugely to culture and they have

00:56:16.520 done no small bad thing you know often they

00:56:20.060 have committed terrible acts of violence

00:56:22.220 towards women children whatever and up until

00:56:28.800 about a decade ago even the hard-line feminists 1.00

00:56:32.740 like me wouldn't dismiss absolutely everything

00:56:36.040 that that person had done because they had

00:56:39.880 also committed a heinous act or had a

00:56:43.460 particularly hideous view so now we strive for

00:56:48.940 perfection but who are the people demanding

00:56:51.800 this what do they do they sit on twitter

00:56:55.240 they sit behind their keyboards they contribute

00:56:59.380 nothing material to the world a lot of them

00:57:01.520 that is such a beautiful point and you know

00:57:05.220 what uh francis said to me oh let's get julia 0.97

00:57:08.240 on she's fierce and you'll probably disagree

00:57:10.420 with her a lot and look there'll be stuff that

00:57:12.180 we disagree but i i'm really appreciating i can

00:57:15.080 tell that you're a person who thinks for

00:57:16.500 themselves and who who's authentic about

00:57:19.160 what they say and i i love that i really enjoy

00:57:21.380 that conversation and this is such an

00:57:23.360 important point because we were having this

00:57:25.360 argument just the other day you know

00:57:26.660 there are people who are who've committed

00:57:29.740 terrible acts against children particularly

00:57:32.460 but created great music or great art and

00:57:35.160 whatever i don't know i don't know what to

00:57:37.740 do with that i i don't i i don't have an

00:57:40.780 answer what do we do with those people how

00:57:42.720 do we do we cancel their music do we stop

00:57:44.960 listening to the music do we you know what

00:57:47.740 do we do as a society with people who've done

00:57:49.580 something terrible yeah i mean on a a kind

00:57:52.120 of i suppose less extreme level yeah the

00:57:55.760 music of snoop dogg so i love rap and hip

00:57:58.780 hop me too and i love snoop dogg and i went

00:58:02.480 to glastonbury to interview him and went to

00:58:05.180 his concert a few years ago and there were

00:58:08.420 some feminists that were horrified how can 1.00

00:58:09.960 you be a feminist well sorry godfather 2 is 0.82

00:58:12.340 my favorite film what do you mean how can you

00:58:14.380 be a feminist and like the music of snoop 1.00

00:58:17.260 dog or like a particular film it's called

00:58:20.640 entertainment and it's called being

00:58:23.200 selective with what you like and don't

00:58:25.980 like so i don't actually like snoop dogg's

00:58:29.760 lyrics when he calls women hoes and 0.98

00:58:31.880 bitches kel surprise but i kind of can 1.00

00:58:36.560 manage to navigate what i do like without 0.95

00:58:40.240 saying i actually like snoop dogg's music

00:58:43.000 which means i like him calling women hoes 1.00

00:58:45.640 and bitches i mean we do this all the time 1.00

00:58:48.860 and it used to be perfectly acceptable to 0.99

00:58:51.900 have friends with whom you profoundly

00:58:53.600 disagree

00:58:54.180 do you remember those yes yes this i like

00:58:57.840 some tories i mean actually one of the um

00:59:00.780 slogan t-shirt slogans that really winds me

00:59:03.600 up is never kissed a tori well i don't think

00:59:06.180 i've ever kissed a tori either but there are

00:59:09.220 some that i actually quite like as individuals

00:59:12.760 as human beings whose company i enjoy and

00:59:17.400 when did that stop being all right because

00:59:20.780 isn't that how we get to know whether or not

00:59:24.120 we've shifted our opinions on things and i

00:59:27.200 suppose some people are just so arrogant that

00:59:28.880 they think i formed all of my opinions they're

00:59:30.520 all correct and that's it now they're stagnant and

00:59:33.620 they'll never change i mean i think i'd probably

00:59:36.320 shoot myself if i ever became a tori but you

00:59:39.520 know i i understand i learn from from people i 0.52

00:59:43.640 hope for example when i met um my my partner's

00:59:47.940 father ernest wistrich he got written into

00:59:51.480 europe with george soros in the 70s he he ran

00:59:54.600 the um the referendum and he taught me so much

00:59:59.660 about europe because i used to go mad when i

01:00:02.140 started going to european parliament and saw

01:00:04.740 the fat cats and saw some of the things that we

01:00:07.180 really would have wanted to reform if we'd

01:00:08.760 remained um i used to go absolutely berserk and

01:00:13.300 he would explain things to me about how things

01:00:15.440 worked and he was out of the european movement

01:00:17.480 for a long time and of course i was pro-european

01:00:23.080 but what i didn't understand until we had these

01:00:26.680 conversations was how he became such an ardent

01:00:30.440 european and it was so we didn't ever have

01:00:33.200 another inter-european war and that's the bit

01:00:37.680 that's missing from a lot of the kind of pro-remain

01:00:41.880 arguments you know ernest you know his his family

01:00:45.840 some of his family perished in the holocaust

01:00:48.080 he got out in time and his mother was there you

01:00:51.800 know was in poland throughout the war in hiding

01:00:54.280 and just by listening to him talk about these things i really shifted my position

01:01:01.320 on some of that and we would also have conversations he was he was a liberal and he defended pornography

01:01:11.100 and in fact my mother-in-law enid wistrich she was the um she was under ken livingstone's um

01:01:18.240 glc she opposed mary whitehouse the two were loggerheads over censorship so she would just pass all the films 1.00

01:01:26.000 you know that one's fine that's fine that's fine there was all kinds of like rabid bonking and

01:01:31.380 sadism going on and enid was saying no as a good liberal i want you know

01:01:35.380 but actually we we would talk about that as you know two feminists anti the porn industry 1.00

01:01:42.560 and these two ardent liberals and we shifted their positions also

01:01:47.940 so we'd have these great conversations across big issues

01:01:52.640 and we would change each other's minds

01:01:55.720 you're gonna make me cry julie

01:01:57.040 oh you are i miss those days but that's what we try and do on this show you know and i like i say

01:02:03.280 i'm i've really enjoyed the conversation because i crave this i miss this and the fact that society

01:02:09.460 no longer allows us to do this in public to me that's a crime i agree that's criminal that we

01:02:16.080 can't have because you've come in here and i i'm someone who makes jokes about feminism all the time 1.00

01:02:21.000 you've actually shown me there are bits of feminism that are absolutely fucking essential 1.00

01:02:25.440 absolutely essential and they need to be addressed and you know we've had we have a close friend of

01:02:31.840 who's who's a woman very very high achieving woman single mom of you know doing great and she's 0.98

01:02:39.200 someone who's not i don't think would say that she's a feminist but when she was talking about 1.00

01:02:42.820 domestic violence

01:02:43.700 you know you sit and listen and you go okay this is a bit that i was missing

01:02:48.580 you know that's what we need more of we need conversation i agree

01:02:53.520 yeah and actually the biggest myth about feminism and feminists like me is that we're man haters 1.00

01:03:00.440 we are the most optimistic political movement on the planet because we don't actually think that boys

01:03:06.280 are born programmed to hate or hurt or abuse women not at all and we know that those men even those that are 0.67

01:03:14.780 entrenched in misogynistic points of view and they are in the minority that we can all change

01:03:22.800 we can all look back and think whoa i used to be x y and z and actually that was really unhealthy

01:03:28.820 and i feel so much better now that i've actually thought about it a bit more all of us so so actually

01:03:34.160 feminists are the opposite of man hating we hate the the abuse that is is condoned um and justified 1.00

01:03:42.020 by some men as well as those that carry out the abuse but we absolutely celebrate the fact that we can

01:03:49.560 also work with men uh to challenge these you know this state of play so we are we're very lovely

01:03:59.080 actually us probably we're so nice

01:04:01.860 so the question that i want to ask and the last one is what do we do about an industry like prostitution

01:04:13.300 what do we do about it julie because the reality is we have male libido male libido is what it is 0.99

01:04:17.920 it's the oldest profession in the world quote unquote what do we do about it

01:04:23.320 yeah this is this is where

01:04:27.220 it's gonna go well what do we it's a crucial question yeah and the reason i wrote my last

01:04:35.260 previous book um was because this question was put to me all the time by people who would say look

01:04:41.820 it's the oldest profession and i would say well it's the oldest depression you know midwifery and

01:04:45.900 agriculture are probably the oldest profession it's not a profession anyway and and actually

01:04:50.280 male libido i mean clearly you know as a hardline lesbian i know very little about that what i do know 0.97

01:04:56.040 is that if men want more sex than do women which which is i think a myth and i think that's part of a 0.95

01:05:01.580 social construct about women being blamed and punished for wanting sex i think women are reluctant to 0.83

01:05:07.680 admit that they want sex and men it's a great badge of honor isn't it that you're a red-blooded man who 0.96

01:05:12.720 wants loads of sex permanent stiffy all the rest of it but that if men want more sex than do women 0.99

01:05:18.740 well it's what your right hand's for mate i mean you don't want to be having sex with women you don't 1.00

01:05:22.840 want to have sex with you it's called rape you know and and although we don't see prostitution sex 0.99

01:05:28.200 as rape because there's the cash is supposedly the consent what are men doing having sex with a woman 0.91

01:05:35.040 who doesn't want it with him you know it's it's really it's not good and and the cash is the

01:05:40.160 coercion if the cash didn't didn't play a part in it she wouldn't want sex with men is she the clue is 1.00

01:05:47.340 it's not a real date so what do we do about it well the smoke screen the the woman who is the happy 0.92

01:05:56.060 hooker is always put up as the smoke screen for actually men's privilege and men's entitlement 1.00

01:06:01.620 we shouldn't be saying this woman wants to be in sex work this woman has the right to choose how can 1.00

01:06:08.540 you as a feminist tell a woman what not to do with her body which is why i don't what i say is men don't

01:06:13.980 have a right to pay for sex so what we do about the sex trade is we recognize that the vast vast majority

01:06:21.020 of women want out so we think about alternatives and we think about exit strategies because they'll come 1.00

01:06:26.500 running to them they every single time that any exit strategies are suggested to women rather than 1.00

01:06:33.140 a cup of tea and a condom they they take up the offer and we say to men okay it's a bit like smoking 0.61

01:06:40.660 in public buildings guys right so it's harmful to other people so what you're doing it's not a victimless

01:06:47.760 crime and we're going to have a big public awareness campaign around why prostitution is 0.99

01:06:54.360 harmful and why you don't need it your dick won't fall off if you don't get your rocks off when you 0.99

01:06:59.340 want it with whom exactly how you want it so therefore we criminalize the paying for sex but 0.99

01:07:05.200 we don't put men in the stocks or in prison or um it's a kind of deterrent and you know you're going

01:07:11.860 to get fined and you're going to it's going to be down on your record and we help the women get out 1.00

01:07:17.800 and we change attitudes we change hearts and minds and they've done this in several countries

01:07:22.580 sweden was the first one in 1999 to criminalize the demand and that would apply to women also but 0.95

01:07:28.980 it's men it's women don't pay for sex as the general rule they just don't and of course most 1.00

01:07:34.060 prostituted people are women but it applies you know the support and exiting strategies are there

01:07:39.280 for any person in prostitution and yeah i think it's been rolled out in several countries

01:07:45.540 it's called the abolitionist model because it's there's a kind of a view the end game is

01:07:52.200 an end prostitution and when people say you can't end prostitution well why it's not there's nothing

01:07:59.180 natural or innate about it you you wouldn't say that about child poverty or or racism you you know

01:08:06.020 it's a hard ask but you would never say we'll never get rid of child abuse i'll tell you what

01:08:10.700 we'll do you know we'll just make it a bit safer for them when they're being abused you know we we see

01:08:17.560 our role um as eradicating a social ill so i think we need to have a conversation about

01:08:25.920 why do we assume men need sex why do we assume men have a right to sex there are many 0.90

01:08:35.020 men who can't get a real date and i'm sorry that they can't get a real date but that happens to

01:08:45.400 women as well and women don't actually order you know sex on wheels to come around to her house 1.00

01:08:51.500 so she can get her rocks off with someone who doesn't want to get their rocks off with her 0.99

01:08:55.780 it's a male thing it's a man thing it's true it is um well i was going to go to our last question but

01:09:03.020 if i let me tell you how to do feminism correctly julie no the only thing i would personally just say 1.00

01:09:10.300 is that i i'm someone who actually agrees with a lot of what you just said i would never want to

01:09:16.520 have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me i would never i'd never have and never 0.97

01:09:20.260 would use a sex worker not because it's deeply immoral in this just because it doesn't accord 0.54

01:09:26.940 with what i think about that issue um but i also think your message would reach me better i'm not

01:09:33.660 talking necessarily about other people if it was if you were talking about rather than talking about

01:09:38.240 men you were talking about the specific people who use that you see what i'm saying yes that's that's

01:09:44.400 all i would say no i think that's absolutely right most men don't pay for sex and this is something

01:09:49.520 that i always always make the point about that in this country the latest figures most recent figures

01:09:56.820 are around 11 of men have at some time paid for sex so many of them will not be entrenched buyers

01:10:03.420 and i've interviewed a lot of men who pay for sex and some of them are deeply ambivalent about it

01:10:09.020 and actually don't really enjoy it that much and some are absolute hardcore this is my right 0.83

01:10:15.380 i want to do things to her that a woman i wasn't paying would say no to which is really hideous

01:10:23.360 but most men don't and then you've got countries like spain where they have a much higher

01:10:30.200 rate of sex buyers so something like 38 40 percent because they've legalized and normalized the sex trade

01:10:38.220 to the point of where it's seen as just going out and buying a burger germany where it's legalized

01:10:42.880 you've got um 60 euros um a 60 euro deal at certain times of the day in the mega brothels 1.00

01:10:52.520 which is a beer a burger and bang all you can all night and you know there are there are horrendous

01:11:02.420 things that go on in those brothels there are men that ask for heavily pregnant women there are gang 1.00

01:11:07.180 bangs all seen as perfectly fine because cash is changing hands and so we need to look at the

01:11:14.680 culture of prostitution and dispel the myths and and really kind of unpick all of the mythology around

01:11:20.940 it the fact that it's a woman's right almost like we're talking about bodily autonomy this is not about

01:11:27.640 her right or her lack of right she doesn't want to be there and you're right it's i agree with you 0.99

01:11:34.240 it has to be addressing the sex buyer and not the male population in general because you'd get the

01:11:41.880 rest of the male population on board with you i just think more effectively if that was the way

01:11:45.900 which which we need we need to do and in fact you know i've met through this work i've met many men

01:11:52.220 in particular actually men who are disabled who are also held up as a smoke screen so but what about

01:11:59.140 men who are disabled who've right one example i was given a few years ago was a returning uh veteran

01:12:06.480 from the iraq war he's had his legs blown off he's almost a paraplegic interestingly he can still get it

01:12:14.480 up so he wants sex and it's as though he's entitled he's not but also there are many disabled men 0.96

01:12:24.800 who actually do have a real date who do are in relationships and some who are not but it's deeply 0.95

01:12:31.940 offensive to disabled people to say that you should be able to buy sex because it's clear no one wants 0.76

01:12:38.300 to shag you so you need to pay for it so we need to unpick all of the mythology around it and one is 0.98

01:12:45.540 poor disabled men who can't get a real date that's used a lot i've heard that a lot all right well i think 0.99

01:12:51.060 we've probably covered everything today we've offended everybody that's fantastic julie it's been

01:12:56.220 a genuine pleasure a genuine pleasure thank you so much for coming on we have one final question for

01:13:01.680 you which is always the same what is the one before we do our locals questions which is what

01:13:06.140 is the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be rape

01:13:11.620 we think we talk about it a lot because it's always in the news in one guise or another

01:13:18.360 but we don't talk about what it actually is we don't talk about it as an expression of hatred and

01:13:25.520 control and sexual entitlement and that's the conversation that we're missing we see it as sex

01:13:33.300 we see it as force and it's actually about neither of those things and why is that important julia i'm

01:13:38.980 asking because i i don't know much about it why is that distinction so important because it's so

01:13:43.500 commonplace that if we think about it as being committed by monsters who literally force a woman

01:13:48.760 by holding a gun to her head we only look at the most extreme cases that are very rare

01:13:54.260 and we don't look at the rape culture in which we live it's very commonplace ask pretty much any

01:14:01.320 married woman of a particular age and ask if she has if she's had sex with her partner her male 0.56

01:14:08.840 partner recently that she didn't want to have you don't call it rape to her or you'll get a very 0.99

01:14:14.700 different answer and she will tell you yes she's been coerced into sex and that's pretty much every 0.97

01:14:21.080 woman under the age of 30 that i speak to it's much more prevalent than we think and it really

01:14:28.320 isn't the the masked marauder carrying a knife breaking into women's houses that happens but

01:14:34.420 it's rare julie it's been an absolute pleasure thank you so much for coming on the show if people

01:14:40.080 want to find you where's the best place to do that twitter where i'm always hanging out getting into

01:14:44.840 arguments and of course uh get the book uh feminism for women the real liberation julie binnell thank you

01:14:52.040 so much uh we are going to do a couple of questions for our supporters only which you can access by joining

01:14:56.840 our locals but in the meantime thank you so much for watching this brilliant interview uh we'll see

01:15:01.660 you very soon with another one or or show all of them go out at 7 p.m uk time and for those of you

01:15:06.740 who like your trigonometry on the go it's also available as a podcast take care and see you soon

01:15:12.180 guys we hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview remember to subscribe and hit the bell

01:15:19.180 button so that you never miss another fantastic episode and if you believe that the work we do here

01:15:25.460 and trigonometry is important support us by joining our locals community using the link below

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TRIGGERnometry - February 03, 2022

An Honest Conversation with a Hardline Feminist

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