TRIGGERnometry - February 03, 2022


An Honest Conversation with a Hardline Feminist


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 16 minutes

Words per Minute

166.65497

Word Count

12,667

Sentence Count

269

Misogynist Sentences

193

Hate Speech Sentences

106


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Julie Binder is the author of Feminism For Women: The Real Route to Liberation, a book about the rise of feminism in the late 19th century and early 20th century, and about the crimes of the Yorkshire Ripper, Jack the Ripper.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
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00:02:41.240 I mean, when I did a talk on prostitution and the horrors of the global sex trade
00:02:45.040 at a feminist conference in October,
00:02:47.940 there were a load of blue fringes outside banging and screaming at the window
00:02:51.620 shouting, blowjobs are real jobs.
00:02:54.080 What?
00:02:54.960 Right, you don't do it then, mate.
00:02:57.320 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.
00:03:06.400 I'm Francis Foster.
00:03:07.620 I'm Constantine Kissin.
00:03:08.800 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.
00:03:13.920 Our fascinating guest for you today is the author of this brilliant book,
00:03:17.340 Feminism for Women, The Real Route to Liberation.
00:03:19.420 Julie Binder, welcome to Trigonometry.
00:03:20.740 Thank you very much.
00:03:21.660 It's great to have you on the show.
00:03:23.160 It's wonderful to be here.
00:03:24.080 We'll get into all the feminist stuff in a second.
00:03:26.640 But before we do, tell everybody who are you, how are you, where you are.
00:03:30.000 What has been your journey through life, Julie?
00:03:31.880 I'm a journalist and I'm a feminist campaigner.
00:03:34.700 And I actually met feminists when I was 17 years old.
00:03:38.340 I was actually looking for lesbians.
00:03:41.380 There is a bit of an overlap.
00:03:42.760 There was so much of an overlap at the time.
00:03:47.340 It was, let's just say it was indivisible.
00:03:50.580 So looking for feminists, when I moved to Leeds from a northeast town called Darlington,
00:03:55.940 obviously it was a big, exciting city.
00:03:57.900 And I went into an alternative bookshop and there were the lesbians.
00:04:02.460 You could tell short hair, ill-fitting jeans, miserable look on their faces, that kind of thing.
00:04:08.240 And it was thrown right in the deep end because these feminists at the time were protesting about Peter Sutcliffe,
00:04:18.600 the Yorkshire Ripper, as he was known.
00:04:20.760 And he was killing women around the north, north of England.
00:04:26.680 And the police had botched the investigation.
00:04:30.660 So if your viewers don't know about the case, Sutcliffe killed 13 women, actually many more,
00:04:37.860 but they remain unsolved and left seven for dead.
00:04:44.200 And he began by targeting the most vulnerable of women who he thought no one would care about.
00:04:49.520 So street prostituted women.
00:04:52.460 And of course, the police weren't that interested.
00:04:56.180 I mean, they knew that these were serious crimes.
00:04:59.840 But of course, these were women who were worthless and who no one was going to care about,
00:05:04.640 which was not the case because we cared about these women and their families cared about them.
00:05:09.380 And he then went on to kill women who weren't in prostitution.
00:05:12.580 Some of them, young women, and the press decided to label them innocent victims,
00:05:19.260 which meant that the others, of course, were not.
00:05:22.060 And some of these women, and this is why it was such a baptism of fire for me,
00:05:25.700 becoming involved at the time that I did in 1979,
00:05:29.660 is that some of the women weren't in prostitution, but they were seen as such
00:05:37.520 because they had the nerve to go out drinking on their own and were enjoying sex with men.
00:05:44.300 So some of them were, you know, seen as good time girls.
00:05:47.480 Well, that isn't how women are supposed to behave.
00:05:49.200 And certainly not in 1979 in the north of England or anywhere.
00:05:55.680 So we were raging against the police for not actually catching this man
00:06:00.520 because they were looking in all the wrong directions.
00:06:03.540 We were raging against them and the press for telling us to be safe,
00:06:08.640 telling us to stay at home,
00:06:12.240 telling the potential victims that we couldn't go out at night
00:06:16.360 when in fact the home is the most dangerous place for women and girls.
00:06:21.780 It's where we're most likely to be killed by a former or current male partner.
00:06:27.260 It's where we're most likely to be sexually abused.
00:06:29.700 Rape in marriage had not been criminalised at that time.
00:06:33.880 Things were dangerous in the home for women
00:06:35.240 and we wanted to reclaim the streets.
00:06:38.400 And so we did.
00:06:40.760 We marched around Leeds and other cities
00:06:43.940 with banners and placards saying
00:06:46.720 men off the streets,
00:06:49.840 end male violence,
00:06:51.680 no to rape.
00:06:53.420 And one night we did this great direct action,
00:06:57.840 which is that we mocked up a load of West Yorkshire police flyers.
00:07:01.360 We put them everywhere
00:07:02.560 on lampposts and doorways saying,
00:07:07.700 men, there's a curfew.
00:07:09.060 All men have to be in off the streets at home by eight o'clock tonight.
00:07:15.600 And it worked for one night.
00:07:18.140 The streets were free of men.
00:07:20.480 Now, this might sound anti-men,
00:07:24.180 but let me tell you why it was not.
00:07:26.360 Because, of course,
00:07:27.360 we shouldn't be responsible for our own safety.
00:07:31.500 Men should not be raping.
00:07:32.840 Men should not be killing.
00:07:34.080 They shouldn't be making us feel scared.
00:07:35.700 And what was happening at the time
00:07:37.920 was while the feminists were going berserk
00:07:41.120 about this killer
00:07:42.360 and about the police and the press response,
00:07:45.920 a lot of men,
00:07:47.320 for example,
00:07:48.000 Leeds football ground,
00:07:48.840 Ellen Road,
00:07:49.960 would be taunting the police
00:07:51.660 10-0,
00:07:53.620 11-0
00:07:54.500 as the victims stacked up.
00:07:57.960 And they'd be shouting at women on buses,
00:08:00.520 say if they hit on us,
00:08:01.880 and we told them to come fuck off.
00:08:03.980 It would be,
00:08:04.440 we hope the ripper gets you.
00:08:06.200 Or I might be the ripper.
00:08:08.700 And so what that whole time in Leeds did
00:08:13.040 was it lifted up the stone
00:08:15.180 and outcrawled all the misogyny
00:08:17.580 that had been there all along
00:08:19.540 and that, of course,
00:08:21.040 the feminists responded to.
00:08:22.720 So that was my journey into feminism.
00:08:25.140 And then further down the line,
00:08:27.360 you know,
00:08:27.680 for a long time,
00:08:30.160 I worked in the grey economy.
00:08:31.540 I was a very good shoplifter.
00:08:33.040 You can't do that anymore.
00:08:34.100 You know,
00:08:35.940 the kind of technology
00:08:37.820 got a bit too much for me.
00:08:39.360 So I dropped that.
00:08:40.940 Bit of check card frauding.
00:08:42.600 And then I met my partner,
00:08:45.320 who I'm still with,
00:08:46.220 and she made me go to university.
00:08:48.200 She said,
00:08:48.480 you can't just hang around
00:08:49.480 doing this kind of thing.
00:08:51.980 Go and get a proper job.
00:08:52.840 So I ended up in journalism
00:08:54.800 when I was about 40.
00:08:55.920 I'm 59 now,
00:08:57.120 so that's my...
00:08:58.880 And here you are.
00:08:59.860 Well, look,
00:09:00.520 I'm glad you put that context
00:09:02.000 to the whole feminist thing
00:09:03.080 because I wanted to ask you,
00:09:04.420 we've talked about feminism a lot,
00:09:06.020 particularly when we first started
00:09:07.240 with people who are pro
00:09:09.080 and critical of it to some extent.
00:09:11.360 And I think when you were talking
00:09:12.640 about the, you know,
00:09:14.760 a mass murderer
00:09:15.900 killing women
00:09:16.600 and targeting women
00:09:17.560 and the police not doing anything about it
00:09:19.660 and men taunting,
00:09:21.380 like I think any sensible person
00:09:23.580 listening to that
00:09:24.340 would be totally in support of that,
00:09:26.160 that part of it.
00:09:27.660 But I'm a bit younger.
00:09:29.360 I didn't go through that experience.
00:09:31.460 I didn't see that.
00:09:33.280 And so when I encountered feminism
00:09:35.220 as I matured,
00:09:36.440 well, not matured,
00:09:37.060 but as I became an adult, let's say,
00:09:39.080 it was a different type of feminism
00:09:40.500 at this point.
00:09:41.640 And it was this,
00:09:42.620 it felt like that to me at least.
00:09:44.720 It was,
00:09:46.600 no one was talking about
00:09:47.700 domestic violence anymore.
00:09:48.880 No one was talking about this stuff.
00:09:52.040 It was all about,
00:09:53.100 you know,
00:09:54.240 microaggressions in the workplace.
00:09:56.560 Someone used the wrong word.
00:09:57.820 The air conditioning
00:09:58.560 isn't quite tailored enough
00:10:00.240 to women's whatever.
00:10:02.520 Do you see what I'm saying?
00:10:03.520 So what is feminism actually?
00:10:05.520 Because I think a lot of young men,
00:10:08.080 maybe who are,
00:10:08.980 who don't have the background
00:10:10.000 that you've just laid out,
00:10:11.420 just see it as a sort of
00:10:12.680 a bunch of people whining about stuff
00:10:14.320 that doesn't really matter.
00:10:16.500 Excuse me.
00:10:17.100 Yes, well,
00:10:17.860 the microaggression thing
00:10:19.020 is a clue, isn't it?
00:10:20.220 It's micro.
00:10:21.320 So it actually is almost invisible.
00:10:25.480 So why worry?
00:10:27.340 You know,
00:10:27.660 we walk around
00:10:28.760 being offended constantly,
00:10:32.260 but would never worry
00:10:33.640 about talking about it
00:10:34.780 or calling anyone to task
00:10:36.400 because you've just been
00:10:37.320 slightly offended.
00:10:38.640 Who cares?
00:10:39.160 But that kind of feminism
00:10:41.660 that you've described
00:10:42.480 is a very pampered
00:10:43.480 kind of version of,
00:10:46.000 I mean,
00:10:46.160 you see it a lot in the States.
00:10:47.420 They call it lean-in feminism.
00:10:49.420 So it's,
00:10:50.280 oh,
00:10:50.560 I'm only earning
00:10:51.480 a million dollars a year
00:10:52.880 and he's earning
00:10:53.800 a million and a quarter.
00:10:56.140 Okay,
00:10:56.720 I don't actually care
00:10:58.140 about those issues.
00:10:59.580 Of course,
00:11:00.080 it's indicative of sexism.
00:11:01.960 Of course,
00:11:02.420 if somebody else
00:11:03.340 is getting a quarter
00:11:03.920 of a million quid
00:11:04.600 a year more than a woman,
00:11:07.000 well,
00:11:07.460 yeah,
00:11:07.900 I mean,
00:11:08.280 it probably,
00:11:09.400 possibly is.
00:11:10.260 If they're doing
00:11:10.620 the same job,
00:11:11.380 then that is.
00:11:11.720 If they're doing
00:11:11.920 exactly the same job,
00:11:12.880 but who actually cares
00:11:14.860 at that level?
00:11:15.920 So I care about the women
00:11:17.040 at the bottom.
00:11:18.880 And feminism is for all women,
00:11:20.660 of course,
00:11:21.220 because all women,
00:11:22.680 we're united
00:11:24.660 by one thing only.
00:11:26.760 Only,
00:11:27.320 only the fear
00:11:28.700 and reality
00:11:29.220 of male violence.
00:11:29.980 There is nothing else
00:11:31.160 that unites women.
00:11:32.800 I mean,
00:11:33.220 bits of our biology.
00:11:34.820 But really,
00:11:35.440 that is it.
00:11:37.780 And so,
00:11:38.200 of course,
00:11:38.560 a woman,
00:11:38.980 however privileged
00:11:40.280 and however wealthy she is,
00:11:44.940 she can still be,
00:11:46.640 to a lesser extent,
00:11:47.660 in many ways,
00:11:48.220 vulnerable to that abuse
00:11:50.360 because her privilege
00:11:51.680 doesn't protect her
00:11:52.660 from that.
00:11:54.280 But whilst all women
00:11:57.780 benefit from feminism,
00:11:59.360 some women need
00:12:00.200 a damn sight more.
00:12:01.380 And I'm sick
00:12:03.800 of hearing
00:12:04.720 the type of,
00:12:06.180 we used to call them
00:12:06.780 shoulder pads
00:12:07.600 in the 1990s.
00:12:09.780 There's women
00:12:10.460 that are
00:12:11.680 extremely senior
00:12:13.520 in their work
00:12:14.480 that talk about issues
00:12:16.280 that can only
00:12:17.380 matter to them
00:12:19.060 whilst not caring
00:12:21.180 about other women
00:12:21.900 at all.
00:12:22.860 So they would no sooner
00:12:24.600 look at
00:12:26.620 impoverished women
00:12:27.620 who don't have
00:12:29.640 the kind of job
00:12:30.900 where they would
00:12:31.360 ever be given
00:12:32.500 maternity benefits
00:12:34.560 than they would
00:12:36.000 any other
00:12:38.080 kind of oppressed
00:12:39.020 or minority group.
00:12:41.180 They just care
00:12:41.940 about their own
00:12:42.660 privilege.
00:12:44.660 One of the reasons
00:12:45.320 that I wanted
00:12:45.960 to bring you on,
00:12:46.680 Julie,
00:12:46.840 was when we were
00:12:47.260 appearing on GB News
00:12:48.420 together and you
00:12:49.200 were talking about
00:12:50.380 male violence
00:12:51.460 towards women,
00:12:52.580 particularly at home.
00:12:53.600 And that's something
00:12:54.280 we don't really talk
00:12:55.260 about anymore.
00:12:55.740 And it's always
00:12:57.420 been in our society
00:12:58.420 and I think over
00:12:59.600 the last year and a half
00:13:00.660 due to lockdown
00:13:01.380 it's got significantly
00:13:02.540 worse because for
00:13:03.520 a lot of women
00:13:04.240 being able to go
00:13:05.360 to work,
00:13:06.000 being able to go
00:13:06.620 and see people,
00:13:07.360 being able to go
00:13:07.840 and meet up
00:13:08.200 for a coffee,
00:13:09.720 to those types
00:13:10.420 of women that
00:13:11.420 is their sanctuary,
00:13:12.320 that is their escape
00:13:13.040 and all of a sudden
00:13:14.080 over lockdown
00:13:14.660 that disappeared
00:13:15.920 and all they had
00:13:17.020 was the home.
00:13:18.120 It's true,
00:13:18.640 it's that kind of
00:13:19.240 isolation that gets
00:13:20.120 even more extreme.
00:13:22.420 So for example,
00:13:23.060 the way that we
00:13:25.880 look at levels
00:13:26.740 of serious
00:13:27.400 male violence,
00:13:28.560 it's actually
00:13:28.980 very straightforward.
00:13:29.940 We look at the morgues,
00:13:30.800 we look at how many
00:13:31.360 deaths there are,
00:13:32.600 we look at how many
00:13:33.420 women are dying
00:13:34.200 at the hands of men.
00:13:35.640 We call it femicide,
00:13:37.100 which means women
00:13:37.940 and girls that die
00:13:38.620 because they're women
00:13:39.320 and girls
00:13:39.800 and they're killed
00:13:40.520 by men
00:13:40.960 and it could be sons,
00:13:42.180 it's usually partners
00:13:43.000 or ex-partners.
00:13:44.680 But during lockdown,
00:13:46.060 I think a lot of,
00:13:47.600 as you said,
00:13:48.380 a lot of the
00:13:49.200 relative freedom
00:13:50.340 that women had
00:13:51.420 to escape,
00:13:53.500 disappeared,
00:13:54.400 but also it gave
00:13:55.800 some men
00:13:56.400 who are violent
00:13:57.280 a ready excuse
00:13:58.600 for their violence.
00:14:01.080 So you know,
00:14:01.460 we've heard it
00:14:01.960 over the years.
00:14:03.600 He only hits me
00:14:04.440 when he's drunk.
00:14:05.320 Well, you know,
00:14:06.180 I've been drunk
00:14:06.840 a few times.
00:14:08.080 I haven't lamped anyone
00:14:09.260 and obviously
00:14:10.420 he's not going into work
00:14:11.460 and lamping his boss.
00:14:12.720 He's choosing to do it
00:14:13.720 to his wife
00:14:14.220 or his kids.
00:14:15.780 The man called
00:14:16.480 Anthony Williams
00:14:17.240 who,
00:14:19.500 I think in his 60s,
00:14:20.660 got a bit depressed
00:14:23.100 during lockdown.
00:14:24.040 I mean,
00:14:24.440 didn't we all?
00:14:25.940 And he decided
00:14:26.900 to strangle his wife.
00:14:29.200 He said,
00:14:29.980 he argued,
00:14:30.560 no history
00:14:31.600 of domestic violence.
00:14:32.600 Well,
00:14:33.180 there possibly wasn't
00:14:34.020 a history
00:14:34.340 of domestic violence
00:14:35.300 but there was certainly
00:14:36.940 a loss of control
00:14:37.780 in that relationship
00:14:38.600 from what we understand.
00:14:40.780 So he started
00:14:41.560 to throttle his wife
00:14:42.400 in the bedroom.
00:14:43.920 She saw he meant business
00:14:44.880 so she ran,
00:14:45.640 ran from him,
00:14:46.720 was fumbling
00:14:47.500 with her key
00:14:48.620 in the door
00:14:49.400 to get out
00:14:50.520 and he caught up
00:14:51.720 with her
00:14:52.100 so he'd had
00:14:52.900 that distance
00:14:53.800 between her
00:14:54.480 running away
00:14:55.720 and finished the job,
00:14:57.700 killed her.
00:14:59.840 And he was successful
00:15:01.060 in his defence
00:15:03.240 against murder.
00:15:05.180 He was convicted
00:15:05.840 of manslaughter.
00:15:06.460 He was given
00:15:07.060 four years
00:15:07.940 and five months,
00:15:08.700 I think,
00:15:09.560 because he said
00:15:11.100 that he was
00:15:11.780 a bit depressed.
00:15:13.920 There was no need
00:15:14.920 for a psychiatric report
00:15:16.360 saying that
00:15:17.260 that was
00:15:17.560 clinical depression.
00:15:19.140 The court
00:15:19.560 just accepted
00:15:20.220 his word.
00:15:21.980 Now,
00:15:23.880 contrast that
00:15:24.560 with Sally Challen.
00:15:25.440 I don't know
00:15:25.700 if you've heard
00:15:26.240 the Challen case,
00:15:27.420 right?
00:15:27.600 Well,
00:15:29.180 2010,
00:15:30.320 you'll have seen it
00:15:30.880 at the time,
00:15:31.420 it was everywhere.
00:15:33.060 A middle class,
00:15:34.160 white,
00:15:35.600 seemingly very
00:15:36.600 kind of,
00:15:36.980 you know,
00:15:37.140 public school educated,
00:15:38.500 been to finishing school,
00:15:40.180 woman in her 50s,
00:15:43.620 bludgeoned her husband
00:15:44.680 to death
00:15:45.180 with a hammer.
00:15:45.900 Totalled him.
00:15:48.860 Went to beachy head
00:15:49.840 with a very,
00:15:51.760 very sincere
00:15:53.220 desire
00:15:55.720 to throw herself
00:15:57.240 over and kill herself.
00:15:59.020 She was talked down.
00:16:01.180 She was put on trial.
00:16:02.660 She was convicted
00:16:03.300 of his murder.
00:16:05.500 And every single
00:16:06.860 newspaper report
00:16:07.800 ran the same
00:16:08.460 kind of line.
00:16:10.000 Deranged,
00:16:10.580 hammer,
00:16:10.940 horror,
00:16:11.400 killing,
00:16:11.940 blah,
00:16:12.100 blah,
00:16:12.280 blah.
00:16:13.800 You know,
00:16:14.400 there was the usual
00:16:15.280 kind of,
00:16:15.720 he seemed like
00:16:16.300 a nice man,
00:16:17.160 there was no violence.
00:16:19.440 And then
00:16:20.120 the organisation
00:16:21.360 that I set up
00:16:22.140 with others
00:16:22.900 in 1990,
00:16:23.740 Justice for Women,
00:16:25.320 we look to campaign
00:16:27.860 for and represent
00:16:28.500 women who've
00:16:29.280 killed as a response
00:16:31.100 to male violence.
00:16:32.280 and we look
00:16:33.180 and we look at how
00:16:34.160 they've been treated
00:16:34.840 by the courts.
00:16:36.300 So we just waited,
00:16:37.340 we knew we'd get
00:16:37.840 a letter from
00:16:38.500 Sally Challen
00:16:39.560 or somebody
00:16:40.360 related to her.
00:16:42.080 A couple of weeks
00:16:42.560 later it came
00:16:43.260 from her cousin.
00:16:45.060 Can you
00:16:46.240 represent
00:16:47.000 Sally?
00:16:48.640 She was in
00:16:49.520 a terribly abusive
00:16:50.780 relationship
00:16:51.760 with this man
00:16:52.500 for four decades.
00:16:53.500 And that's
00:16:55.560 interesting,
00:16:56.060 isn't it?
00:16:56.340 The kind of
00:16:56.880 language we use
00:16:57.620 that somebody's
00:16:58.760 in an abusive
00:16:59.740 relationship.
00:17:00.280 It's not actually
00:17:01.140 an abusive
00:17:01.660 relationship.
00:17:03.300 He's the abuser.
00:17:04.420 She's not,
00:17:05.080 she's not in
00:17:06.820 that relationship.
00:17:07.960 He's doing it
00:17:08.740 to her.
00:17:10.180 And when we
00:17:11.240 uncovered
00:17:11.700 the detail
00:17:14.400 of her life
00:17:15.200 with Richard
00:17:16.080 Challen,
00:17:16.900 it was horrific.
00:17:18.260 And it could
00:17:19.180 have been there
00:17:19.640 for the courts
00:17:20.340 to see.
00:17:22.240 I mean,
00:17:22.540 the first thing,
00:17:23.640 and this definitely
00:17:24.600 is not the most
00:17:25.260 serious,
00:17:25.800 but what would
00:17:26.860 you think
00:17:27.460 if you went
00:17:28.560 round to a
00:17:29.020 friend's house,
00:17:30.420 a married couple
00:17:31.060 like Sally
00:17:31.940 and Richard,
00:17:32.920 and you saw
00:17:33.760 on their
00:17:34.140 mantelpiece
00:17:34.940 a picture
00:17:35.980 of him
00:17:36.740 sitting
00:17:38.180 astride
00:17:39.640 a red
00:17:41.100 sports car
00:17:41.940 with at
00:17:43.220 either side
00:17:43.840 of him
00:17:44.100 two bare-breasted
00:17:45.140 dolly birds
00:17:46.040 wearing nothing
00:17:47.060 but thongs
00:17:47.760 what would
00:17:49.760 you think
00:17:50.080 to that
00:17:50.520 in the
00:17:50.900 family home?
00:17:52.580 It's not
00:17:53.040 really right,
00:17:53.620 is it?
00:17:54.640 He sent
00:17:55.160 that Christmas
00:17:56.200 card to all
00:17:57.140 their friends
00:17:57.580 and relatives
00:17:58.200 and put that
00:17:59.580 there for her
00:18:00.520 to look at
00:18:00.940 every day.
00:18:02.220 He'd anally
00:18:02.800 raped her
00:18:03.380 as punishment
00:18:04.040 for her being
00:18:04.960 kissed by one
00:18:05.740 of his friends.
00:18:06.940 Wasn't her
00:18:07.380 choice.
00:18:08.080 He just
00:18:08.340 happened to
00:18:08.680 walk in on
00:18:09.220 it.
00:18:10.340 He had
00:18:10.820 belittled her,
00:18:11.840 demeaned her,
00:18:13.500 psychologically
00:18:14.000 tortured her
00:18:15.260 for decades.
00:18:17.760 their sons
00:18:19.580 testified to
00:18:20.440 this.
00:18:21.180 Her son
00:18:21.540 David
00:18:21.880 campaigned
00:18:22.400 on her
00:18:22.660 behalf.
00:18:23.920 She was
00:18:24.200 given life
00:18:24.660 for murder.
00:18:25.500 We eventually
00:18:26.040 got that
00:18:26.520 overturned,
00:18:27.540 but she'd
00:18:27.860 served 10
00:18:28.320 years in
00:18:28.740 prison.
00:18:29.560 So if you
00:18:29.840 compare those
00:18:30.640 two cases,
00:18:32.140 it tells you
00:18:32.780 what feminism
00:18:34.400 should be
00:18:35.080 about.
00:18:35.440 Not the
00:18:35.720 microaggressions,
00:18:37.240 not the
00:18:37.880 women at
00:18:38.260 the top,
00:18:39.360 but the
00:18:39.700 women who
00:18:40.160 are actually
00:18:41.000 going through
00:18:41.660 this and
00:18:42.620 are being
00:18:42.860 discriminated
00:18:43.540 against and
00:18:44.020 blamed when
00:18:44.620 they do
00:18:45.040 fight back
00:18:46.620 or just
00:18:47.940 try to defend
00:18:48.580 themselves.
00:18:49.820 And why is it
00:18:50.460 then that we
00:18:50.960 focus in on
00:18:51.700 the microaggressions?
00:18:52.680 Why don't we
00:18:53.320 talk about
00:18:54.700 these issues,
00:18:55.680 which are really
00:18:56.260 important and
00:18:56.860 which affect
00:18:57.420 women?
00:18:58.300 Well, you see,
00:18:59.300 proper feminists
00:18:59.980 do.
00:19:00.180 Look, there are
00:19:00.500 hundreds of ways
00:19:01.140 to be a feminist,
00:19:01.880 but most of them
00:19:02.420 are wrong.
00:19:06.720 Every fucker
00:19:07.760 can call
00:19:08.160 themselves a
00:19:08.900 feminist.
00:19:09.500 And they do.
00:19:10.120 And they do.
00:19:10.960 And the reason
00:19:11.620 why they do it,
00:19:13.460 I mean women,
00:19:14.240 but even some
00:19:15.000 men, is to
00:19:17.200 then spout the
00:19:18.180 worst kind of
00:19:19.220 anti-feminism,
00:19:20.560 but with
00:19:20.860 authority.
00:19:22.280 So one
00:19:22.740 example,
00:19:23.640 Ash Sarkar.
00:19:26.100 We know.
00:19:27.000 We know.
00:19:27.480 Navarra Media
00:19:28.160 and Pundit.
00:19:29.680 Media Pundit.
00:19:30.860 I'm sure that
00:19:31.760 she's a highly
00:19:32.480 intelligent
00:19:33.160 woman of talent.
00:19:35.940 You know,
00:19:36.160 I do not judge
00:19:37.040 her for that
00:19:38.400 at all,
00:19:38.820 but she's not
00:19:39.420 a feminist.
00:19:40.180 She really
00:19:41.020 isn't a feminist.
00:19:42.240 She's a
00:19:42.740 trans activist.
00:19:44.300 She's a luxury
00:19:45.120 communist,
00:19:45.620 or whatever she
00:19:46.100 calls herself.
00:19:47.100 But just because
00:19:47.880 she's a woman
00:19:48.780 with a big mouth
00:19:50.200 does not mean
00:19:51.240 she is a feminist.
00:19:52.080 Now, I'll give you
00:19:52.860 one little example.
00:19:54.160 I mean, there are
00:19:54.620 millions I could use.
00:19:55.840 I mean, the mad
00:19:56.940 nonsense she spouts
00:19:58.060 about how
00:19:59.440 male sex offenders
00:20:01.940 that identify
00:20:02.900 as women
00:20:05.000 are no danger
00:20:05.900 to really vulnerable
00:20:07.120 women in prison
00:20:07.920 settings, for example.
00:20:08.860 That's just one.
00:20:10.660 So anyway,
00:20:11.440 I tweeted something
00:20:12.780 in response to her
00:20:15.080 two or three years ago
00:20:16.840 where she was saying,
00:20:18.540 trans women
00:20:19.160 are no danger
00:20:20.040 at all in the
00:20:20.720 women's prison estate.
00:20:21.940 And I just tweeted,
00:20:24.360 well,
00:20:24.760 unless you're a
00:20:25.280 vulnerable woman
00:20:25.920 who obviously
00:20:26.720 is sexually assaulted
00:20:27.580 by one of them.
00:20:30.420 And the next thing,
00:20:31.920 somebody alerted me
00:20:32.960 to her tweet,
00:20:34.380 which was a thing
00:20:34.960 of beauty.
00:20:36.920 She'd done a search
00:20:38.000 on Twitter,
00:20:39.200 not even on Google.
00:20:41.800 This is her journalism
00:20:43.200 really kicking in.
00:20:46.080 She'd put the name
00:20:47.120 of a prisoner
00:20:48.520 who'd taken her own life,
00:20:49.960 a case that I knew about,
00:20:52.020 that I'd campaigned
00:20:53.000 on behalf of,
00:20:54.220 and she'd put my name.
00:20:55.400 And when it didn't
00:20:57.180 come up with a hit
00:20:58.180 of me tweeting
00:20:59.580 about this woman,
00:21:01.280 she said,
00:21:01.960 here we go,
00:21:02.940 these transphobes
00:21:04.200 don't care about
00:21:05.540 women in prison.
00:21:06.340 They only care
00:21:08.080 about being transphobic.
00:21:09.700 And immediately,
00:21:11.600 she was piled on.
00:21:13.740 Even by my enemies,
00:21:15.400 you said,
00:21:16.320 oh, I think Julie Binzel
00:21:17.320 has actually,
00:21:18.320 since before you were born,
00:21:19.540 Ash,
00:21:20.180 set up Justice for Women,
00:21:21.540 has helped loads
00:21:22.540 of women get out
00:21:23.240 of prison and campaigns
00:21:24.980 for prison reform.
00:21:26.700 So I think you've got
00:21:27.620 that wrong.
00:21:29.060 So arrogant.
00:21:30.320 Didn't correct it.
00:21:31.340 Didn't take it down.
00:21:32.340 Didn't apologise.
00:21:33.080 Which actually is
00:21:33.640 quite admirable.
00:21:35.180 But she will say
00:21:37.680 she's a feminist
00:21:38.300 and she'll say it
00:21:39.360 in order to
00:21:40.340 completely discredit
00:21:42.940 any of the work I do
00:21:45.100 or the women
00:21:46.240 that also campaign
00:21:47.080 against male violence.
00:21:48.840 That's what they do.
00:21:49.800 Male feminists as well.
00:21:51.220 You know,
00:21:51.420 they'll do the same.
00:21:52.060 They're the worst.
00:21:53.240 Billy Bragg.
00:21:54.900 That dickhead.
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00:22:29.340 Julie,
00:22:29.940 you know,
00:22:30.220 what you're talking about
00:22:31.220 speaks to so much
00:22:33.360 of the other things
00:22:34.340 we've discussed
00:22:34.980 on the show
00:22:35.520 where it seems like
00:22:36.320 everywhere you look now
00:22:37.400 you have
00:22:38.380 these poseurs,
00:22:39.900 these people who have,
00:22:41.120 they take a pose
00:22:41.960 in public
00:22:42.460 and because of that
00:22:43.420 they have a large following
00:22:44.520 and whatever
00:22:45.180 and there are other people
00:22:46.680 who are doing
00:22:47.220 actual real work
00:22:48.320 on the ground
00:22:48.780 whose work in many ways
00:22:49.820 is being undermined
00:22:50.900 by the poseurs
00:22:52.740 who are doing this
00:22:53.980 and I certainly feel that way
00:22:55.640 because when you were
00:22:56.260 talking about
00:22:57.140 Sally?
00:22:58.640 Sally Challen.
00:22:59.460 Sally Challen.
00:23:00.960 I'm horrified
00:23:01.880 to hear the story
00:23:02.920 let alone
00:23:03.620 the different treatment
00:23:04.700 judicially
00:23:05.240 just the story itself
00:23:06.280 is horrific obviously
00:23:07.200 but to me
00:23:08.360 I don't even see that
00:23:09.520 and forgive me
00:23:10.360 as a feminist issue
00:23:11.500 to me
00:23:11.900 that's an issue
00:23:12.500 of injustice.
00:23:13.260 Of course it is.
00:23:13.980 Right?
00:23:15.020 But when you have
00:23:16.400 people running around
00:23:17.480 talking about
00:23:18.260 how feminism
00:23:18.840 is about
00:23:19.340 the wrong temperature
00:23:20.160 in the office
00:23:20.620 or whatever it is
00:23:22.400 it puts people like me
00:23:24.240 off the whole thing
00:23:25.140 if I'm honest with you.
00:23:26.380 Right?
00:23:26.940 And I think
00:23:28.420 it undermines
00:23:29.320 the cause
00:23:29.960 that you are advocating
00:23:31.160 for which is
00:23:31.960 clearly necessary.
00:23:34.260 Well the way
00:23:35.220 I look at it
00:23:35.780 because I don't
00:23:36.200 particularly agree
00:23:37.000 with you
00:23:37.520 on one level
00:23:39.220 because of course
00:23:39.880 sexism is one thing
00:23:41.720 misogyny is another
00:23:42.540 and all misogyny
00:23:43.860 is a sexist
00:23:44.500 but not all
00:23:45.160 sexists are misogynists.
00:23:46.880 I'm one of those
00:23:47.680 I think.
00:23:48.540 I think I'm another.
00:23:52.780 So you know
00:23:53.800 Caroline Criado-Perez
00:23:54.800 wrote a great book
00:23:56.160 about the temperature
00:23:57.260 in the office.
00:23:59.180 You know
00:23:59.780 I don't mean
00:24:00.520 to be facetious
00:24:02.920 it's actually
00:24:03.860 a really important book
00:24:05.460 because she tells us
00:24:06.840 things that
00:24:07.680 I certainly
00:24:08.160 hadn't known
00:24:08.720 just about the way
00:24:09.480 that firefighters
00:24:10.960 uniforms
00:24:11.880 are not
00:24:14.200 designed for women
00:24:16.520 so therefore
00:24:17.280 when you have
00:24:17.700 female firefighters
00:24:18.640 their uniforms
00:24:19.580 don't fit them.
00:24:20.200 Now that is
00:24:21.240 a small thing
00:24:22.320 compared
00:24:22.800 to sending a woman
00:24:24.020 to life
00:24:24.500 for responding
00:24:25.320 to male violence
00:24:26.200 or looking at rates
00:24:27.840 of femicide
00:24:28.960 in Russia
00:24:29.300 which is
00:24:29.720 you know
00:24:30.000 one of the highest
00:24:30.480 in the world
00:24:31.280 but it still
00:24:32.740 is an indication
00:24:33.980 of sexism
00:24:34.940 and of course
00:24:36.600 sexism can lead
00:24:37.780 to real discrimination
00:24:40.000 and it can lead
00:24:41.020 to worse
00:24:42.080 than these kind
00:24:43.420 of attitudes.
00:24:44.060 I mean wolf whistling
00:24:44.940 which
00:24:45.880 Julie
00:24:46.120 may I pause you there
00:24:47.380 just for one second
00:24:48.000 you'll be very welcome
00:24:49.300 to carry on
00:24:49.760 with your point.
00:24:51.440 This is
00:24:51.760 I want to flesh this out
00:24:52.800 because we talk about
00:24:54.000 this in other contexts
00:24:54.800 as well
00:24:55.180 in the issue of race
00:24:56.180 or whatever
00:24:56.620 where people automatically
00:24:58.280 assume often
00:24:59.180 that a disparity
00:25:00.260 means discrimination
00:25:01.300 so
00:25:02.500 I don't know
00:25:03.940 if this is true
00:25:04.520 and correct me
00:25:05.080 if I'm wrong
00:25:05.460 but I would imagine
00:25:06.240 the reason that
00:25:07.100 firefighters uniforms
00:25:08.320 are designed for men
00:25:09.580 is historically
00:25:10.340 the overwhelming majority
00:25:11.460 of people attracted
00:25:12.260 to that profession
00:25:12.980 and for a period of time
00:25:14.040 allowed to be in that profession
00:25:15.160 I grant you
00:25:15.680 were men
00:25:16.600 and therefore
00:25:17.460 it's just a default setting
00:25:18.600 it's not because people
00:25:19.480 sat down and went
00:25:20.400 we hate women
00:25:21.440 or we are against women
00:25:22.660 or we don't respect women
00:25:23.780 of course
00:25:24.180 right
00:25:24.520 so is that really sexism
00:25:26.040 or is it just like
00:25:26.920 a sort of
00:25:27.420 you know
00:25:27.820 this is the default setting
00:25:29.400 because not many women
00:25:30.500 have been in this profession
00:25:31.460 and as it becomes more
00:25:32.680 even if it ever does
00:25:33.640 that will be taken
00:25:34.780 do you see what I'm saying
00:25:35.600 I do
00:25:36.060 and the only reason
00:25:37.440 why women are in the fire service
00:25:38.740 at all
00:25:39.040 is because feminists
00:25:39.700 campaigned
00:25:40.740 against the kind of
00:25:42.240 discrimination
00:25:43.040 sure
00:25:43.820 that would prevent women
00:25:45.720 from being in the fire service
00:25:47.720 I mean to be honest with you
00:25:49.200 the kind of feminism
00:25:50.780 I got involved in
00:25:51.840 very early on
00:25:52.820 as I mentioned
00:25:54.040 at the beginning
00:25:54.580 is what I see
00:25:55.980 as the life and death issues
00:25:57.300 and I can't get whipped up
00:25:58.980 about
00:25:59.400 equal pay
00:26:01.600 I care about the women
00:26:03.060 who are on zero contract hours
00:26:04.420 obviously
00:26:04.880 I don't really get whipped up
00:26:06.480 about the other stuff
00:26:07.220 that isn't
00:26:07.860 as kind of
00:26:09.080 nor do I
00:26:09.620 it's just you called it sexism
00:26:10.880 and I was just like
00:26:11.680 is it not
00:26:12.640 I think it's sexism
00:26:14.160 I think it is
00:26:15.260 it is all sexism
00:26:16.880 I think that
00:26:17.740 some
00:26:18.620 effects
00:26:20.460 on women
00:26:21.440 some of it affects women
00:26:23.100 more than others
00:26:23.980 that there is
00:26:26.220 if there is a default position
00:26:27.560 which favours men
00:26:28.940 then clearly
00:26:30.360 that's sexism
00:26:31.400 why?
00:26:32.660 because
00:26:33.180 if you look at
00:26:34.760 for example
00:26:35.980 Billy Bragg
00:26:36.660 who argues
00:26:38.100 he was
00:26:38.820 he decided
00:26:39.640 he had to explain
00:26:40.540 to women
00:26:41.000 what feminism was
00:26:42.160 last International Women's Day
00:26:43.980 I think
00:26:44.400 and he was saying
00:26:45.680 timing great
00:26:46.780 it's perfect
00:26:47.540 in his double denim
00:26:50.580 and he was saying
00:26:52.480 look
00:26:52.720 you know
00:26:53.020 feminism is about
00:26:53.780 equality for all
00:26:54.620 well it isn't
00:26:55.240 it's about
00:26:55.660 actually liberation
00:26:56.880 for women
00:26:57.360 equality for all
00:26:58.920 what does that mean
00:27:00.020 where's the default position
00:27:01.620 there has to be
00:27:03.800 something that you are
00:27:04.960 aspiring to be equal to
00:27:06.660 and if that's men
00:27:08.420 then that means that
00:27:09.600 men are the default position
00:27:10.880 which means that women
00:27:11.880 are discriminated against
00:27:15.080 in relation to that
00:27:16.220 but
00:27:17.580 like I say
00:27:18.540 you know
00:27:19.000 you can
00:27:19.400 you can measure
00:27:20.520 the effectiveness
00:27:22.120 of feminism
00:27:22.820 by
00:27:23.940 seeing
00:27:25.000 whether or not
00:27:25.840 we've made a difference
00:27:27.320 in terms of the scale
00:27:28.720 and prevalence
00:27:30.260 of
00:27:30.600 rape
00:27:31.700 domestic violence
00:27:32.940 femicide
00:27:34.180 forced marriage
00:27:35.320 FGM
00:27:35.880 all of the issues
00:27:36.820 that affect women and girls
00:27:38.460 because we're women and girls
00:27:39.840 which is why
00:27:41.060 the idea
00:27:42.260 that you can just identify
00:27:43.920 into a gender
00:27:44.820 is so ludicrous
00:27:46.420 because you know
00:27:47.420 tell that to a girl
00:27:48.320 in a menstrual hut
00:27:49.260 in Nepal
00:27:49.860 you know
00:27:51.100 tell that to the dead body
00:27:52.300 in the morgue
00:27:53.000 who's killed
00:27:53.580 because she's
00:27:55.040 dishonoured her family
00:27:56.020 in Kurdistan
00:27:56.960 it's nonsense
00:27:58.520 I totally get you
00:27:59.440 and I know it feels like
00:28:00.580 I'm honing in
00:28:01.420 on a trivial issue
00:28:02.260 but I'll tell you why
00:28:03.040 I'm doing it
00:28:04.320 my concern is
00:28:06.140 that if we call
00:28:07.920 everything sexism
00:28:08.920 then nothing is sexism
00:28:09.860 I agree
00:28:10.260 I absolutely agree
00:28:12.060 with that
00:28:12.540 and I think that
00:28:13.840 there's a
00:28:14.400 type of
00:28:15.720 whinging
00:28:17.540 approach
00:28:18.440 to
00:28:18.980 that's what I'm getting at
00:28:20.280 right
00:28:20.480 see the thing is
00:28:22.520 this is my sticking point
00:28:23.480 I still think it's sexism
00:28:24.760 but I don't really care
00:28:25.680 but why is it sexism
00:28:26.960 Julie
00:28:27.220 why is it sexism
00:28:28.480 because it is
00:28:29.840 suggesting that women
00:28:32.240 are
00:28:33.120 of less importance
00:28:34.500 than men
00:28:35.040 so if you have something
00:28:36.000 that's
00:28:36.840 kind of
00:28:37.240 set out
00:28:38.140 for men's convenience
00:28:39.640 for no good reason
00:28:41.240 but there is a good reason
00:28:44.520 which is the overwhelming
00:28:45.640 majority of firefighters
00:28:46.880 are men
00:28:47.320 but why
00:28:48.080 no I'm not disputing that
00:28:49.440 of course there would have been
00:28:50.480 some women who would have been
00:28:51.400 I can't believe we're talking
00:28:51.800 about firefighters
00:28:52.480 I mean who gives a shit
00:28:54.040 no I agree with you Julie
00:28:55.900 the reason that I'm picking up on this
00:28:57.760 is I do think language is important
00:28:59.520 yes it is
00:29:00.140 right
00:29:00.260 I agree
00:29:00.880 so if you're going to insist
00:29:02.340 on calling it sexism
00:29:03.420 I'm not disputing that
00:29:04.900 I want you to explain to me
00:29:06.440 why so I can understand
00:29:07.600 because right now
00:29:08.440 I don't
00:29:09.140 see it's chicken and egg
00:29:10.080 isn't it
00:29:10.420 because
00:29:10.720 obviously
00:29:12.000 if the majority
00:29:13.540 of any particular profession
00:29:15.320 or trade
00:29:16.120 are men
00:29:16.880 then things are set up
00:29:18.540 for them
00:29:19.060 it's like the issue
00:29:20.460 about that
00:29:20.960 there was one female loo
00:29:22.660 in the House of Commons
00:29:23.580 because of course
00:29:24.600 there were no female MPs
00:29:25.900 it was probably there
00:29:26.680 for the cleaner
00:29:27.160 or the caterer
00:29:28.000 or something
00:29:28.400 and now of course
00:29:29.600 there are more female MPs
00:29:30.860 that they want more loos
00:29:31.660 but honestly
00:29:32.500 I would fall asleep
00:29:33.280 in the middle
00:29:33.800 of complaining about that
00:29:35.020 I mean not if I was
00:29:35.980 a female MP
00:29:36.640 but it just isn't
00:29:38.740 on my radar
00:29:39.540 but it's clearly
00:29:40.920 an indication
00:29:41.700 of the fact
00:29:42.760 that women were shut out
00:29:43.820 of much public life
00:29:44.620 they were
00:29:45.100 but is it still
00:29:46.860 sexism today
00:29:47.960 that uniforms
00:29:48.780 are not made
00:29:49.660 for women
00:29:50.260 in the same way
00:29:50.880 that they are for men
00:29:51.460 I think that there's
00:29:52.340 different ways
00:29:53.140 in which you can
00:29:54.100 put women
00:29:55.560 off a particular
00:29:57.400 trade
00:29:58.480 particular profession
00:29:59.560 you know
00:30:01.100 there are extreme ways
00:30:02.620 and there are subtle ways
00:30:03.620 I mean the extreme way
00:30:05.360 was the
00:30:06.580 Montreal Massacre
00:30:08.360 of 1989
00:30:09.780 in which 14 female
00:30:11.680 engineering students
00:30:12.700 were shot dead
00:30:13.640 who was effectively
00:30:15.440 the first incel
00:30:16.480 that we ever heard
00:30:17.640 about
00:30:18.060 resented women
00:30:19.200 because they had
00:30:20.100 shut him out
00:30:20.680 of the profession
00:30:21.240 he felt he was
00:30:22.140 entitled to
00:30:22.920 and that's a really
00:30:24.080 extreme example
00:30:25.000 of how there's
00:30:26.460 this sense of
00:30:26.960 male entitlement
00:30:27.740 which means that
00:30:28.880 women will feel
00:30:29.480 less entitled
00:30:30.300 yeah all of that
00:30:32.140 I'm behind you
00:30:32.920 completely
00:30:33.540 100%
00:30:34.160 I just
00:30:34.620 it's part of the
00:30:36.360 conversation that's
00:30:37.260 ever present in society
00:30:38.440 how whenever there's
00:30:39.280 a disparity
00:30:39.680 like for example
00:30:40.400 there's an issue
00:30:41.080 for black women
00:30:42.840 who are more likely
00:30:43.700 to die giving birth
00:30:44.640 and it's automatically
00:30:45.600 assumed that that's
00:30:46.420 because of racism
00:30:47.180 is it?
00:30:48.660 we don't know
00:30:49.460 I mean people
00:30:50.040 have different
00:30:50.500 biological things
00:30:51.540 there's different
00:30:52.020 things going on
00:30:52.620 and also of course
00:30:53.300 ethnic minorities
00:30:54.660 like me
00:30:55.420 and immigrants
00:30:55.860 like me
00:30:56.220 are a tiny
00:30:57.060 minority of the
00:30:57.780 population
00:30:58.220 so of course
00:30:58.840 the default setting
00:30:59.720 would be
00:31:00.600 for the people
00:31:02.080 who've been here
00:31:02.780 for thousands of years
00:31:03.720 I mean give you
00:31:04.140 an example
00:31:04.520 when I go to the
00:31:05.220 dentist
00:31:05.500 they can never
00:31:06.560 knock me out
00:31:07.380 knock the jaw
00:31:08.160 out properly
00:31:08.820 because I've got
00:31:09.600 an eastern
00:31:10.060 European jaw
00:31:10.780 structure
00:31:11.180 and it was only
00:31:12.180 when I met
00:31:12.860 a dentist
00:31:13.280 who understood
00:31:13.900 this
00:31:14.140 an Indian guy
00:31:14.820 as it happens
00:31:15.280 he knew how to do it
00:31:16.520 he's the first
00:31:17.100 dentist in the UK
00:31:18.000 who could do that
00:31:18.860 is that racism
00:31:20.500 against Russians
00:31:21.480 or whatever
00:31:21.920 you just reminded me
00:31:22.900 of something
00:31:23.280 when I first met
00:31:24.300 the woman
00:31:25.160 who was
00:31:25.540 my partner's mother
00:31:27.340 which was back
00:31:27.880 in 1987
00:31:28.640 and they're
00:31:30.260 excuse me
00:31:30.980 Polish Jews
00:31:31.760 and I have
00:31:32.540 heritage from
00:31:33.940 Russia
00:31:34.620 they
00:31:36.780 she said
00:31:37.640 oh yes
00:31:38.060 I could tell you
00:31:39.060 had Russian heritage
00:31:39.880 you've got a very
00:31:40.480 square jaw
00:31:41.180 and I thought
00:31:41.500 thanks very much
00:31:42.340 thanks ever so much
00:31:44.640 but I never had
00:31:46.160 any trouble
00:31:46.560 with the dentist
00:31:47.080 but
00:31:47.420 do you see
00:31:48.420 what I'm saying
00:31:48.980 right
00:31:49.380 no I understand
00:31:49.980 and I think
00:31:50.680 that that happened
00:31:51.240 with Covid
00:31:51.760 also
00:31:52.440 where
00:31:52.880 one thing
00:31:54.520 was very clear
00:31:55.200 the reason why
00:31:56.300 so many people
00:31:57.160 of colour
00:31:57.420 who were dying
00:31:57.860 in the beginning
00:31:58.340 in the
00:31:59.500 who were health
00:32:00.340 workers
00:32:00.640 is because
00:32:01.240 of the proportion
00:32:02.140 of those
00:32:03.400 who are
00:32:04.260 domestic minorities
00:32:05.220 that work
00:32:05.960 in particular jobs
00:32:07.000 at particular levels
00:32:07.900 in the health service
00:32:09.200 and that tells
00:32:09.760 its own story
00:32:10.540 but then there
00:32:11.540 started to become
00:32:12.420 this discourse
00:32:13.640 about how
00:32:14.260 Covid was almost
00:32:15.600 racist itself
00:32:17.020 by targeting
00:32:18.060 people of colour
00:32:18.720 and black people
00:32:19.440 and obviously
00:32:21.500 you have to look
00:32:22.140 right behind
00:32:23.080 the story
00:32:23.740 but there was
00:32:24.660 much of that
00:32:26.160 and I think
00:32:26.460 The Guardian
00:32:26.860 ran several pieces
00:32:27.880 that just didn't
00:32:28.700 stand up
00:32:29.420 and it was
00:32:30.760 very
00:32:31.440 histrionic
00:32:32.620 and it was
00:32:33.100 dripping in
00:32:34.640 the kind of
00:32:35.440 sentiment
00:32:35.940 that isn't
00:32:37.120 helpful
00:32:37.480 so yeah
00:32:39.200 I mean I agree
00:32:39.840 with your broad point
00:32:41.100 Francis take over
00:32:42.180 me
00:32:42.320 I've asked
00:32:42.620 about 20
00:32:43.120 questions in a row
00:32:44.080 so we've
00:32:45.180 covered firefighters
00:32:46.100 you had bad cop
00:32:47.320 you haven't talked
00:32:48.500 about firefighters
00:32:49.320 bad firefighter
00:32:50.800 here's the good
00:32:51.300 firefighter
00:32:51.700 okay so
00:32:52.620 why is it
00:32:54.440 let's go back
00:32:55.240 into this
00:32:55.700 because this is
00:32:56.220 important
00:32:56.680 why is it
00:32:57.740 that feminism
00:32:58.920 focuses on
00:33:00.620 the trivial
00:33:01.140 the banal
00:33:02.380 the things
00:33:03.600 that I consider
00:33:04.340 to be unimportant
00:33:05.340 why does it
00:33:06.440 ignore the very
00:33:07.440 real and the
00:33:08.200 very important
00:33:08.940 issues that affect
00:33:09.840 women for
00:33:10.920 instance FGM
00:33:11.800 I've got my
00:33:12.760 own opinions
00:33:13.240 about that
00:33:13.880 but why is it
00:33:14.960 we don't talk
00:33:15.640 about this
00:33:16.020 in a full
00:33:16.520 frank and
00:33:17.020 honest manner
00:33:17.620 okay well
00:33:19.160 there's two
00:33:19.680 answers to
00:33:20.680 that question
00:33:21.400 one is that
00:33:22.360 many of us
00:33:23.080 do so
00:33:24.320 I'm connected
00:33:25.080 to feminist
00:33:25.880 networks all
00:33:26.940 over the world
00:33:27.540 almost I mean
00:33:28.480 even in Saudi
00:33:29.280 Arabia there
00:33:30.680 are active
00:33:31.520 feminists
00:33:32.220 wow
00:33:32.760 and you know
00:33:33.860 everywhere in the
00:33:34.800 world because
00:33:35.400 of course there
00:33:35.920 is no country
00:33:36.560 in the world
00:33:37.120 that is free
00:33:38.100 from the type
00:33:39.100 of issues
00:33:39.740 that we've
00:33:40.560 been talking
00:33:40.940 about now
00:33:41.560 rape is in
00:33:43.040 existence in
00:33:44.040 the richest
00:33:44.680 and most equal
00:33:45.700 countries right
00:33:46.960 through to the
00:33:47.940 worst to live
00:33:48.740 if you're a
00:33:49.580 woman
00:33:49.780 so those of
00:33:52.700 us that
00:33:53.100 campaign to
00:33:54.040 end male
00:33:54.380 violence in
00:33:56.160 all our
00:33:56.900 different kind
00:33:57.720 of roles are
00:33:59.780 very loud and
00:34:00.660 vocal and we
00:34:01.360 have actually
00:34:02.100 created material
00:34:02.940 change we've
00:34:03.820 introduced
00:34:04.120 legislation we
00:34:05.540 monitor those
00:34:06.260 that are supposed
00:34:06.660 to implement
00:34:07.180 the law we've
00:34:09.020 raised awareness
00:34:09.820 all of that
00:34:10.720 but there are
00:34:13.040 also those
00:34:13.680 feminists that
00:34:14.240 don't really
00:34:14.760 want to get
00:34:15.260 their hands
00:34:15.700 dirty so
00:34:17.360 they might
00:34:19.180 look at the
00:34:19.680 softer issues
00:34:20.620 so they spend
00:34:21.540 all of their
00:34:22.000 time bleating
00:34:22.820 on and I'm
00:34:24.640 going to be so
00:34:25.180 hated for this
00:34:26.000 about the type
00:34:27.480 of maternity
00:34:28.600 cover in very
00:34:30.260 elite professions
00:34:31.180 now it goes
00:34:32.580 without saying
00:34:33.240 that I believe
00:34:34.060 that women
00:34:34.500 should have
00:34:35.540 maternity
00:34:36.340 cover and
00:34:37.540 maternity
00:34:38.100 benefits but
00:34:39.500 it's the type
00:34:40.260 of women
00:34:40.800 for example
00:34:41.560 when I was
00:34:42.040 doing some
00:34:44.220 consultancy in
00:34:45.640 a charity that
00:34:46.980 deals with the
00:34:47.580 trafficking and
00:34:49.160 sexual exploitation
00:34:49.940 of women into
00:34:50.680 the UK
00:34:51.060 there was one
00:34:52.860 woman in this
00:34:53.800 charity and
00:34:54.540 oh was she
00:34:55.540 entitled and
00:34:57.140 she had
00:34:58.240 three babies
00:35:00.600 in a row
00:35:01.200 very very
00:35:03.640 deliberately
00:35:05.140 within a
00:35:07.820 time frame
00:35:08.660 so that she
00:35:09.400 would get the
00:35:10.000 maximum
00:35:10.740 benefits and
00:35:12.900 maternity leave
00:35:14.200 at a charity
00:35:15.480 that was failing
00:35:16.420 because it was
00:35:17.560 underfunded
00:35:18.200 where the women
00:35:19.860 who the charity
00:35:21.300 was serving
00:35:21.940 were the most
00:35:22.880 disenfranchised and
00:35:24.000 impoverished
00:35:24.600 imaginable
00:35:25.460 and this
00:35:26.520 extremely privileged
00:35:27.940 woman milked it
00:35:29.180 she had her own
00:35:29.780 low stool with
00:35:30.520 her everywhere
00:35:30.860 she went
00:35:31.320 she was going
00:35:32.200 to the Pilates
00:35:32.960 that was on
00:35:33.640 offer she was
00:35:34.680 taking time off
00:35:35.580 every single
00:35:36.680 minute that she
00:35:38.000 could to go to
00:35:39.000 her appointments
00:35:40.140 with the doula
00:35:40.940 or whatever
00:35:41.580 and I was so
00:35:43.320 angry about that
00:35:44.420 and yet if I'd
00:35:45.520 have said
00:35:46.000 you should put a
00:35:47.920 cap on how
00:35:49.100 many
00:35:49.600 traunches of
00:35:52.380 maternity leave
00:35:53.240 these women should
00:35:53.940 have I would have
00:35:54.560 been seen as
00:35:55.140 Hitler of course
00:35:56.000 because it's never
00:35:56.780 a mid-range
00:35:57.400 dictator we go
00:35:58.380 straight to Hitler
00:35:59.160 and that really
00:36:02.820 winds me up
00:36:03.820 but it would be
00:36:05.320 extremely unfair
00:36:07.200 and actually
00:36:08.000 neoliberal of me
00:36:09.200 to say
00:36:09.780 you should put a
00:36:10.860 cap on this
00:36:11.520 because of course
00:36:13.020 these benefits
00:36:14.440 are supposed to be
00:36:15.220 for all women
00:36:15.860 but she didn't
00:36:16.780 need that
00:36:17.480 she used that
00:36:18.680 charity
00:36:19.160 knowing if she
00:36:20.080 went to the
00:36:20.460 private sector
00:36:21.180 she would get
00:36:22.580 far less
00:36:23.160 they'd be far
00:36:23.960 less generous
00:36:24.560 with her about it
00:36:25.460 that isn't a
00:36:26.700 feminist thing to
00:36:27.400 do in my view
00:36:28.180 so I think
00:36:29.100 sometimes it's
00:36:29.640 complicated
00:36:30.100 but then there's
00:36:31.380 other women
00:36:31.800 that just
00:36:32.340 bleat on about
00:36:33.920 things that you
00:36:35.220 think well this
00:36:35.820 is only going to
00:36:36.700 benefit you if you
00:36:37.880 solve this problem
00:36:39.200 this actually doesn't
00:36:40.400 apply to most
00:36:41.300 women
00:36:41.640 most women aren't
00:36:42.840 in the types of
00:36:43.720 jobs that you are
00:36:44.640 talking about
00:36:45.300 wanting to be
00:36:45.980 paid more in
00:36:46.800 or have more
00:36:47.620 annual leave from
00:36:48.720 or be able to
00:36:49.720 leave every day
00:36:50.360 at three o'clock
00:36:50.980 to go and pick up
00:36:52.020 little Millie and
00:36:53.440 little Oscar
00:36:53.980 you know from
00:36:54.940 their fee paying
00:36:55.740 school so on
00:36:58.060 on a class
00:36:58.820 basis you know
00:37:00.700 if we look at
00:37:01.280 the issue of
00:37:01.980 class some of
00:37:03.920 the most elite
00:37:04.940 women will
00:37:06.500 practice a
00:37:07.100 feminism that
00:37:07.800 is only ever
00:37:08.660 going to be
00:37:09.220 beneficial to
00:37:10.480 them and
00:37:11.200 their
00:37:11.660 their
00:37:14.000 strata
00:37:15.300 society
00:37:15.800 exactly
00:37:16.240 hey
00:37:17.860 Constantine
00:37:18.580 do you love
00:37:19.560 trigonometry
00:37:20.200 of course
00:37:21.020 incredible interviews
00:37:22.380 hilarious live
00:37:23.640 streams
00:37:23.960 hard-hitting
00:37:24.940 satire
00:37:25.520 plus my
00:37:26.600 handsome jawline
00:37:27.520 whatever takes
00:37:28.240 away from your
00:37:29.000 hairline
00:37:29.520 but if you do
00:37:30.320 love trigonometry
00:37:31.100 and you want to
00:37:32.100 support us
00:37:32.720 there's only one
00:37:33.860 place to do that
00:37:34.820 and that's on
00:37:35.900 Locals
00:37:36.420 yes Locals is a
00:37:37.900 brilliant platform
00:37:38.680 that has been
00:37:39.380 incredibly supportive
00:37:40.440 to our show
00:37:41.340 and other
00:37:42.060 problematic creators
00:37:43.720 the great thing
00:37:44.600 about Locals
00:37:45.320 is that it's a
00:37:46.000 community for
00:37:46.840 people who love
00:37:47.940 trigonometry
00:37:48.620 that's right
00:37:49.200 it's a place for
00:37:49.880 you to hang out
00:37:50.560 with like-minded
00:37:51.220 people share
00:37:51.980 thoughts memes
00:37:52.760 and discuss the
00:37:53.520 show you can
00:37:54.280 enjoy it for free
00:37:55.200 but it also gives
00:37:56.600 you the option of
00:37:57.400 supporting us for
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00:38:02.960 incredible rewards
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00:38:04.780 supporters as well
00:38:05.760 we've got everything
00:38:06.560 from mugs
00:38:07.200 monthly group calls
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00:38:10.560 KK
00:38:10.980 get in
00:38:11.660 join our community
00:38:12.900 by hitting the link
00:38:14.120 in the description
00:38:14.920 and the pinned
00:38:15.780 comment below
00:38:16.480 see you there guys
00:38:17.680 what I also find
00:38:20.320 interesting is how
00:38:21.880 they don't want to
00:38:23.820 this particular brand
00:38:25.080 of feminist doesn't
00:38:25.880 want to criticise
00:38:26.920 cultures or practices
00:38:29.580 in other cultures
00:38:30.940 because they're
00:38:31.860 terrified of being
00:38:32.900 seen as racist
00:38:33.780 and not as an ally
00:38:35.140 and you go well
00:38:36.500 that to me is racism
00:38:38.400 because you're not
00:38:39.020 treating everyone
00:38:39.740 equally
00:38:40.160 well it's worse
00:38:41.380 even than not
00:38:42.040 wanting to speak
00:38:42.700 out about it
00:38:43.340 they actually
00:38:44.220 endorse some of
00:38:45.080 these practices
00:38:45.720 they will twist
00:38:47.760 something in an
00:38:49.380 Orwellian manner
00:38:50.460 that's quite staggering
00:38:51.500 for example
00:38:52.200 they'll support the
00:38:53.120 notion that the
00:38:54.160 full face veil
00:38:55.000 is empowering to
00:38:56.640 women and it's a
00:38:57.460 fuck you to the
00:38:58.120 west
00:38:58.480 when in fact there
00:38:59.740 are women in
00:39:00.340 Pakistan, Saudi
00:39:01.180 Arabia, Bradford
00:39:02.380 that are being
00:39:03.720 coerced into wearing
00:39:05.200 the full face veil
00:39:06.160 who are fighting
00:39:07.760 with other feminists
00:39:10.360 to stop that being
00:39:11.900 imposed on girls
00:39:12.800 because it is an
00:39:13.340 infringement of
00:39:14.340 their freedom
00:39:14.780 and it is an
00:39:15.860 insignia of
00:39:16.960 women's oppression
00:39:17.640 it is not a symbol
00:39:19.040 of fuck you to the
00:39:19.920 west
00:39:20.180 I mean it may well
00:39:21.100 be that that's the
00:39:21.760 sentiment that a
00:39:22.500 particular individual
00:39:23.360 wearing the full
00:39:24.180 face veil feels
00:39:25.360 but it's imposed
00:39:26.580 upon a woman
00:39:27.640 and another example
00:39:29.260 a few years ago
00:39:30.240 I read a tiny
00:39:32.980 little news item
00:39:35.040 in the English
00:39:36.640 Norwegian newspaper
00:39:38.200 don't even ask me
00:39:39.160 why I was reading
00:39:39.840 the English speaking
00:39:40.520 Norwegian
00:39:40.900 I must have been
00:39:41.460 really bored that
00:39:42.320 day
00:39:42.580 and it was that
00:39:44.060 Norway is about to
00:39:44.920 become the first
00:39:45.500 Jew free country
00:39:46.780 in Europe
00:39:47.740 Jews are leaving
00:39:50.360 getting out of
00:39:51.440 Norway
00:39:51.760 the anti-Semitism
00:39:52.540 is terrible
00:39:53.140 and I thought
00:39:54.740 oh I'll go and
00:39:56.000 have a look at that
00:39:56.640 because I hadn't
00:39:57.760 heard
00:39:58.140 I had some
00:39:59.020 contacts there
00:39:59.700 and obviously
00:40:01.640 I mean it was
00:40:02.440 they were focusing
00:40:03.300 on visible Jews
00:40:04.680 so religious Jews
00:40:05.600 in the main
00:40:06.160 Hasids
00:40:07.440 I assume
00:40:08.580 so I trots along
00:40:11.580 to Norway
00:40:12.040 and went to
00:40:14.160 the one
00:40:15.940 kosher restaurant
00:40:16.900 which turned out
00:40:17.640 to be a
00:40:18.020 Brickaback store
00:40:19.060 with a table
00:40:20.260 that you could
00:40:20.980 sit six around
00:40:21.840 that served
00:40:22.800 on a Wednesday
00:40:23.940 and a Monday
00:40:25.160 kosher chicken
00:40:26.500 whatever
00:40:27.340 talked to the
00:40:28.760 people there
00:40:29.360 that run the
00:40:29.980 shop and they
00:40:30.920 told me what
00:40:31.640 the story was
00:40:32.340 so I just had
00:40:33.480 it in my head
00:40:34.240 that were these
00:40:35.380 groups of
00:40:35.980 overt anti-Semites
00:40:37.240 raging around
00:40:38.240 Oslo
00:40:38.780 saying Jews
00:40:40.500 out
00:40:40.840 and in fact
00:40:43.180 what it was
00:40:44.000 was that the
00:40:44.860 influx of
00:40:46.300 young men
00:40:48.280 who were coming
00:40:49.620 from Middle
00:40:50.380 Eastern countries
00:40:51.380 who were very
00:40:53.720 very angry
00:40:54.300 about the
00:40:55.640 state of Israel
00:40:56.340 and about
00:40:57.980 Israelis
00:40:58.420 because obviously
00:40:59.160 they couldn't
00:40:59.780 distinguish between
00:41:00.700 the policies of
00:41:01.880 the government
00:41:02.280 and Israeli
00:41:03.600 citizens
00:41:04.120 and further
00:41:05.640 they couldn't
00:41:06.240 distinguish between
00:41:07.100 Israeli Jewish
00:41:07.860 citizens and
00:41:08.860 the Jewish
00:41:10.080 diaspora
00:41:10.660 were burning
00:41:14.060 Israeli flags
00:41:15.100 outside the
00:41:15.680 embassy and all
00:41:16.420 of that kind of
00:41:16.980 carry on
00:41:17.480 and the white
00:41:19.800 Norwegian woke
00:41:20.840 men
00:41:21.280 and some
00:41:23.140 women but
00:41:23.560 mainly men
00:41:24.220 saw their
00:41:25.920 brown brothers
00:41:26.920 Muslims
00:41:27.560 who were
00:41:28.340 clearly the
00:41:28.880 oppressed
00:41:29.360 Palestinian Arabs
00:41:30.820 and wanted to
00:41:32.060 support them
00:41:32.660 that kind of
00:41:33.220 knee-jerk thing
00:41:34.380 of not even
00:41:35.220 doing their
00:41:35.780 research
00:41:36.360 and looking at
00:41:37.780 what they were
00:41:38.300 supporting
00:41:38.740 and they were
00:41:40.080 marching through
00:41:40.880 Oslo on a
00:41:41.680 regular basis
00:41:42.720 behind angry
00:41:45.360 men
00:41:45.840 with signs in
00:41:47.680 Arabic saying
00:41:48.420 kill the Jews
00:41:49.780 now they didn't
00:41:51.140 know because they
00:41:52.040 didn't read Arabic
00:41:52.860 but actually they
00:41:54.340 could have done a
00:41:54.920 little bit of
00:41:55.360 research to see
00:41:56.060 what they were
00:41:56.480 supporting couldn't
00:41:57.260 they and so
00:41:58.420 what the Jewish
00:41:59.520 community in
00:42:00.240 Oslo and the
00:42:01.640 rest of Norway
00:42:02.400 were thinking
00:42:04.020 was okay we
00:42:05.800 don't even have
00:42:06.300 the white liberals
00:42:06.860 on our side
00:42:07.460 anymore Jews
00:42:08.820 have always had
00:42:09.980 those Gentile
00:42:11.400 liberals that
00:42:12.900 will be appalled
00:42:14.040 at anti-Semitism
00:42:14.760 we don't even
00:42:15.860 have that we're
00:42:16.520 going and you
00:42:18.240 know of course
00:42:18.700 ironically many
00:42:19.480 of them migrated
00:42:20.880 to Israel
00:42:21.420 it was what
00:42:22.340 happens when you
00:42:22.900 have an
00:42:23.180 impression Olympics
00:42:23.900 people can pip
00:42:25.000 you to the
00:42:25.740 thing right and
00:42:26.580 that's what's
00:42:26.980 happened
00:42:27.260 no it's but
00:42:29.660 again why is
00:42:32.440 it and I
00:42:34.060 feel very
00:42:34.700 passionate about
00:42:35.540 this because we're
00:42:36.300 not talking about
00:42:37.300 the issues that
00:42:37.940 really impact
00:42:38.820 women we're just
00:42:39.900 not and what you
00:42:41.360 have is this
00:42:42.240 surface level of
00:42:43.640 crap which is
00:42:44.980 being fed to us
00:42:46.140 and that's what we
00:42:47.380 think feminism is
00:42:48.440 that's what we
00:42:49.820 think it is and
00:42:50.520 it's not
00:42:51.040 well it's bullshit
00:42:51.780 that's why I
00:42:52.380 wrote my book and
00:42:53.360 that's why I
00:42:53.800 called it
00:42:54.140 feminism for
00:42:54.780 women because
00:42:55.580 what we've ended
00:42:56.120 up with is a
00:42:56.880 feminism that
00:42:57.540 benefits men more
00:42:58.420 than it does
00:42:58.840 women it's all
00:43:00.000 this pole dancing
00:43:00.740 for exercise sex
00:43:01.920 work is work
00:43:02.740 trans women are
00:43:03.700 women all of
00:43:05.260 those issues are
00:43:06.240 really crucial for
00:43:07.320 feminists to get a
00:43:08.200 proper grip of
00:43:09.460 so take the issue
00:43:10.960 of prostitution
00:43:11.780 the discourse around
00:43:14.180 this from the
00:43:15.360 faux feminists
00:43:17.520 ash sarkar and
00:43:19.520 all of her mates
00:43:20.480 is sex work is
00:43:22.060 work it's a job
00:43:25.160 it's a profession
00:43:26.620 I mean when I
00:43:27.700 did a talk on
00:43:28.660 prostitution and
00:43:29.380 the horrors of the
00:43:30.080 global sex trade
00:43:31.000 at a feminist
00:43:32.580 conference in October
00:43:33.580 there were a load of
00:43:34.860 blue fringes outside
00:43:36.000 banging and screaming
00:43:37.060 at the window
00:43:37.580 shouting blow jobs
00:43:38.640 are real jobs
00:43:39.440 what right you
00:43:41.780 don't you don't
00:43:43.160 do it then mate
00:43:44.260 you go and get an
00:43:46.700 unwashed dick into
00:43:47.500 your mouth and tell
00:43:48.360 me that you'd rather
00:43:49.140 do that eight times
00:43:50.080 a day than be a
00:43:51.600 researcher or an
00:43:52.560 academic or a
00:43:53.340 journalist or whatever
00:43:54.140 why the hell are you
00:43:55.380 supporting something
00:43:56.340 that has such a
00:43:58.040 horrendous effect on
00:43:59.880 millions of women
00:44:00.780 around the world
00:44:01.760 and sets a
00:44:03.560 context where
00:44:05.100 women's bodies are
00:44:06.340 seen as orifices to
00:44:08.140 rent and to sell
00:44:09.300 you know it's an
00:44:10.700 appalling issue that
00:44:12.600 many sex trade
00:44:13.480 survivors so
00:44:14.180 women who have
00:44:14.640 actually done
00:44:15.460 prostitution are
00:44:17.220 now thankfully
00:44:18.080 educating the world
00:44:19.360 about the realities
00:44:20.300 of this you know I
00:44:21.680 know loads of the
00:44:22.300 women I've interviewed
00:44:22.880 hundreds of them and
00:44:24.300 they will say look when
00:44:25.220 I was in prostitution I
00:44:26.840 used to say hey I
00:44:27.700 love my work fuck off
00:44:29.040 don't you dare judge
00:44:29.960 me of course you do I
00:44:31.600 mean you're you're
00:44:32.280 coping in in a
00:44:34.000 horrific situation but
00:44:35.880 when they get out and
00:44:37.000 if they're supported
00:44:37.680 enough to be able to
00:44:38.480 do that from other
00:44:39.280 women then they'll
00:44:40.640 say it was hell and
00:44:43.480 no woman should have
00:44:44.260 to go through this
00:44:45.080 and yeah of course
00:44:46.220 you've got the odd
00:44:46.900 exception there's
00:44:47.540 always an exception
00:44:48.220 isn't there the
00:44:49.180 Brooke Magnanti
00:44:50.020 Belle de Jour type
00:44:51.220 she's you know
00:44:52.420 funding her PhD she
00:44:54.240 prostitutes from
00:44:55.520 five-star hotels and
00:44:57.680 Park Lane she's
00:44:59.880 totally atypical
00:45:01.840 she's a tourist right
00:45:03.680 and yet she speaks
00:45:05.000 with authority just
00:45:05.980 like those women who
00:45:06.780 aren't feminists
00:45:07.740 but call themselves
00:45:09.160 feminists I mean I've
00:45:10.420 known women who say
00:45:11.900 I'm a feminist I did
00:45:13.380 sex work blow jobs
00:45:14.800 are real jobs and
00:45:16.360 we look into what
00:45:18.100 she's actually been
00:45:19.320 involved in she was
00:45:21.100 doing her doctoral
00:45:23.040 studies on phone sex
00:45:25.280 lines so she sat on
00:45:26.700 the end of a phone
00:45:27.260 sex line for six
00:45:28.100 weeks saying yes I've
00:45:30.060 got my tits out have
00:45:32.080 you got your dick out
00:45:33.360 big boy
00:45:34.020 hopefully not with
00:45:35.480 that intonation Julie
00:45:36.560 because that's not a
00:45:37.340 very good service
00:45:38.340 is that not a habit at
00:45:39.880 all I don't think so
00:45:41.460 I mean maybe some
00:45:44.260 people might like
00:45:45.160 you're a big boy
00:45:45.940 I didn't want to
00:45:48.260 excite your viewers
00:45:49.140 you've got to put some
00:45:50.780 excite your viewers
00:45:51.660 I have a friend who
00:45:53.340 when I make the
00:45:54.200 wanking sign she
00:45:55.160 always says I'm not
00:45:55.800 doing it right and I
00:45:56.520 say how should I
00:45:57.240 know I've been a
00:45:58.460 lesbian since forever
00:45:59.600 I see what you're
00:46:03.020 saying they're not
00:46:04.000 people who've
00:46:04.800 experienced the
00:46:05.620 horrors of the
00:46:06.500 sex trade in the
00:46:07.520 way that the women
00:46:08.600 you're trying to
00:46:09.460 protect and stand up
00:46:10.580 for and defend and
00:46:11.480 advocate for actually
00:46:13.180 experience so if you
00:46:14.520 get an academic who
00:46:15.860 who sits on the
00:46:16.680 phone line for a few
00:46:17.560 months talking that's
00:46:19.240 not the same as you
00:46:21.240 know being a street
00:46:22.080 prostitute with all
00:46:23.060 of that
00:46:23.460 more than that even
00:46:26.200 some of them just
00:46:27.120 masquerade
00:46:28.460 some of them lie
00:46:30.140 some of them are I
00:46:31.380 really do call them
00:46:32.340 tourists in it they
00:46:33.760 they nip in and out
00:46:34.760 of it and then they
00:46:35.560 adopt the label so I
00:46:37.360 was in Nevada where in
00:46:39.680 certain counties within
00:46:40.900 the state of Nevada
00:46:41.820 they've had legal
00:46:43.400 brothels forever
00:46:44.320 beginning with a gold
00:46:46.520 rush and of course
00:46:48.080 Dennis Hoth the biggest
00:46:51.160 pimp in the world who
00:46:52.100 thankfully is dead now
00:46:53.260 who was a real piece of
00:46:55.240 work who ran these
00:46:56.140 brothels and terrorized
00:46:58.660 women and he he was
00:47:01.280 you know seen as just
00:47:02.440 this great businessman
00:47:03.600 he was normalizing the
00:47:05.240 sex trade he was
00:47:06.080 making it into a great
00:47:07.060 profession and he said
00:47:09.860 yes when I asked if I
00:47:10.840 could go and research
00:47:12.160 his brothels
00:47:13.060 clearly hadn't googled
00:47:15.120 me
00:47:15.420 I rock up and he's
00:47:18.760 trying to be Mr.
00:47:20.000 Charming and said you
00:47:22.780 can interview my girls
00:47:23.880 brothels but he'd
00:47:25.060 primed them to you
00:47:26.700 know he these women
00:47:28.000 they they live in these
00:47:30.660 brothels for months on
00:47:31.600 end they're not there
00:47:32.940 because there's another
00:47:33.580 choice waiting for them
00:47:34.660 they're there because
00:47:35.460 that's the only way they
00:47:36.260 can make money and they
00:47:37.120 need that money and many
00:47:38.700 of them are double
00:47:39.240 pimped so their pimps send
00:47:40.520 them to the legal
00:47:41.160 brothels where the pimps
00:47:42.940 are businessmen so it's a
00:47:44.640 horrific system and the
00:47:46.620 women are no safer than
00:47:48.560 than under any other kind
00:47:51.100 of you know criminalized
00:47:52.120 regime so when I was
00:47:55.840 there and saw the
00:47:57.740 reality of it and the
00:47:58.560 women told me it was
00:47:59.300 like a one of them said
00:48:00.420 it was a pussy
00:48:01.000 penitentiary you can't
00:48:03.260 even leave the brothel
00:48:04.340 unless you're with an
00:48:04.940 assistant pimped going to
00:48:06.220 town you have your blood
00:48:08.480 test every week to see if
00:48:10.800 you've got any STIs and
00:48:12.840 your name with the results
00:48:14.100 are put up for all to see
00:48:15.620 at the reception area you
00:48:17.260 do a line-up when the
00:48:18.360 johns the punters come in
00:48:19.740 and you have to stand
00:48:20.620 there not smiling wait
00:48:22.200 until they pick you I
00:48:23.260 mean just like cattle and
00:48:25.560 in the meantime there's
00:48:28.300 somebody at the University
00:48:29.560 of Nevada who's doing her
00:48:31.660 PhD on sex work and in
00:48:34.740 order to research it she
00:48:37.860 goes into the brothels turns
00:48:41.840 a few tricks does a few
00:48:43.560 johns and interviews the
00:48:46.140 women and then leaves and
00:48:47.760 completes her PhD and says
00:48:49.200 hey I'm a sex worker and
00:48:51.980 guess what her PhD was on
00:48:53.440 it was on the ability of
00:48:56.880 women to orgasm during sex
00:48:59.720 work and she found that if
00:49:01.900 you're over 40 you're more
00:49:03.240 likely to orgasm during sex
00:49:05.080 work than if you're under 40
00:49:06.920 I think that's the way
00:49:07.720 around but imagine doing that
00:49:11.780 imagine taking years out of your
00:49:15.780 life to show something that is
00:49:20.600 blatantly untrue by asking a
00:49:24.300 woman do you enjoy when you have
00:49:27.200 sex with a punter well guess what
00:49:28.580 they're going to say I love it I
00:49:31.040 love my job and this is now a PhD
00:49:34.940 thesis that will be read by young
00:49:38.580 students who are being fed this
00:49:40.760 sex workers work bullshit while
00:49:43.680 books like mine on prostitution and
00:49:45.960 other critical feminists are having
00:49:48.740 trigger warnings put on them in some
00:49:50.560 universities because we say it's
00:49:52.340 abuse of women it's a human rights
00:49:54.080 violation it's crazy this is such a
00:49:57.200 good point Julie because if you
00:49:59.480 remember the case of Durham
00:50:01.520 University which was now correct me if
00:50:04.800 I'm getting it wrong but they were
00:50:06.120 advising students how to go into
00:50:09.380 sex work and how to do it safely
00:50:11.700 that's right and these are girls of
00:50:13.540 18 19 20 now they may be adults but
00:50:17.240 you're not telling me that someone of
00:50:18.500 18 19 is aware of the full
00:50:20.940 ramifications of this type of work
00:50:22.880 particularly in the internet age and if
00:50:25.180 that was my daughter I would
00:50:26.320 personally drive oh I can't drive I'd
00:50:28.120 get the train myself in order to
00:50:30.160 strangle them yeah because to me that
00:50:32.440 is abuse why is it we have just
00:50:34.880 normalized this and all of a sudden
00:50:36.780 we're like hey 18 19 year old girl
00:50:38.740 yeah come in yeah exactly mainly
00:50:41.480 because of academics but they are many
00:50:44.100 of them take funding directly from the
00:50:46.460 sex trade to do this research and of
00:50:49.760 course what the the pimps and the you
00:50:52.480 know the the profiteers want is blanket
00:50:57.560 decriminalization and total
00:50:59.320 normalization because of course they do I
00:51:01.820 mean this is just about profit it's
00:51:03.240 about money for them so for Durham
00:51:05.860 University to say here's how you become
00:51:08.280 safe in sex work is like telling some
00:51:11.860 bloke that you should go and work in an
00:51:13.360 asbestos ridden factory and here's how
00:51:15.620 to wear proper protective gear it's not
00:51:18.540 safe it's not safe under legalization it's
00:51:21.300 not safe under any regime except for where
00:51:23.220 you're actually throwing the kitchen sink
00:51:25.580 at the women to help them get out and the
00:51:27.820 idea that universities are encouraging
00:51:30.860 this when for many women working class
00:51:33.940 women the women that could well have
00:51:36.140 ended up being sexually exploited see
00:51:39.980 education as a way out of that and
00:51:42.640 something to give them better
00:51:43.660 opportunities it's disgraceful and they
00:51:46.440 don't want to do it so the academics in
00:51:48.740 their ivory towers why don't they just set
00:51:50.820 up a brothel why are they on an academic
00:51:53.120 salary I mean it's an interesting point
00:51:55.860 Julian it's a point again which speaks to
00:51:57.520 so many of the other things we've been
00:52:00.060 discussing on the show for years now which
00:52:01.820 is the gigantic disconnect between the
00:52:06.180 media and the political class and the
00:52:09.060 academic institutions and actual people in
00:52:12.660 the actual real world and you know you saw
00:52:15.500 it with Brexit and as everyone knows
00:52:17.900 Francis and I both voted remain and there
00:52:19.700 was all this stuff about you know we'll be
00:52:22.140 better off by 1% if we stay in and all and
00:52:24.700 and you're just going you people don't
00:52:26.540 understand what actual people in the
00:52:29.580 real world are experiencing and that's
00:52:31.880 why I think there's a lot of skepticism
00:52:33.580 now with about things to do with COVID
00:52:35.540 because you've under I wrote a massive
00:52:37.020 long thread on Twitter about it you've
00:52:39.660 undermined trust in all of these
00:52:41.160 institutions the academia the media the
00:52:43.040 politicians and now you're telling
00:52:44.180 people to do stuff well a lot of them
00:52:45.640 are going well you lied about everything
00:52:46.840 else
00:52:47.280 yeah I mean it's a real worry
00:52:50.400 you know I I think once we know that our
00:52:57.000 politicians can lie to us and not even
00:52:59.000 lie about lying to us then that's it you
00:53:02.280 know we're done for and it used to be that
00:53:05.060 it was a huge scandal when politicians were
00:53:07.480 found out lying now it's just expected
00:53:09.120 and it's becoming more and more Trumpian
00:53:12.460 and that that's the thing that really
00:53:14.580 worries me and you know I feel politically
00:53:16.460 homeless you know I couldn't if there were if
00:53:19.000 there was a German election tomorrow I'd
00:53:21.320 I'd I think I'd have to force myself to
00:53:23.380 vote Labour but why I mean it's it's a
00:53:26.420 disgrace of a party it doesn't represent
00:53:29.460 working-class people anymore it used to
00:53:32.200 and it it does not in any way and that's
00:53:37.000 why of course so many traditional
00:53:39.180 working-class people like all of my
00:53:40.760 family in my community where I grew up
00:53:42.480 some of them moved to um to UKIP some
00:53:46.140 of them some of them even moved Tory for
00:53:47.940 God's sake I mean that was unthinkable
00:53:49.840 when I was growing up you would never
00:53:51.840 have a Tory anywhere near where we we
00:53:54.840 worked and lived and played and Julie
00:53:56.580 you say the Labour Party used to
00:53:58.200 represent working-class people what
00:54:00.020 period are you talking about because I
00:54:01.560 would imagine there were a lot of people
00:54:02.740 who felt that even Tony Blair coming in
00:54:04.820 was already starting to undermine that
00:54:06.380 but with Tony Blair the argument was
00:54:08.920 well at least he's going to get you
00:54:10.200 elected he's going to get you in power
00:54:11.620 he's going to put money into public
00:54:13.080 services which to be fair to him he did
00:54:15.660 I have a lot of issues with Tony Blair a
00:54:17.700 lot but on that stuff he did deliver
00:54:20.400 for ordinary people there's no question
00:54:21.720 about it but what you've got now is a
00:54:24.800 party that are simultaneously disconnected
00:54:26.840 from working-class people and absolutely
00:54:30.300 useless when it comes to getting elected
00:54:32.520 and really bad for women right really bad
00:54:37.820 Blair really gave a damn about the
00:54:40.700 northeast he was the first leader I think
00:54:44.700 that really focused on issues that that
00:54:48.480 were usually just stepped over you know
00:54:51.940 Scotland has always been favored over the
00:54:55.440 northeast of England and yet we hear the
00:54:58.580 voices from Scotland way louder than we do
00:55:01.240 the voices from the northeast of England
00:55:02.700 and my community is much worse off but it's a
00:55:09.340 good question when well I mean Blair did bring
00:55:12.580 in so many policies that helped
00:55:14.320 impoverished and working-class people
00:55:17.880 there's no question about that and I also
00:55:20.980 have issues with him but I think that you
00:55:23.500 know to dismiss somebody's entire body of
00:55:26.820 work is tragic and the Iraq war is no small
00:55:32.380 thing we we absolutely know that but to throw
00:55:36.160 every single thing out is indicative of the
00:55:39.660 whole cancel culture context where you have
00:55:42.900 someone who has done brilliant work for
00:55:45.600 decades but they're transphobic which is
00:55:50.260 usually bullshit anyway right and therefore
00:55:52.860 nothing that they have ever done in the
00:55:55.620 past or to date can ever be considered
00:55:59.040 worthy how the hell did we get to this I mean
00:56:03.480 you know we we see the way that some people have
00:56:09.120 contributed hugely to culture and they have
00:56:16.520 done no small bad thing you know often they
00:56:20.060 have committed terrible acts of violence
00:56:22.220 towards women children whatever and up until
00:56:28.800 about a decade ago even the hard-line feminists
00:56:32.740 like me wouldn't dismiss absolutely everything
00:56:36.040 that that person had done because they had
00:56:39.880 also committed a heinous act or had a
00:56:43.460 particularly hideous view so now we strive for
00:56:48.940 perfection but who are the people demanding
00:56:51.800 this what do they do they sit on twitter
00:56:55.240 they sit behind their keyboards they contribute
00:56:59.380 nothing material to the world a lot of them
00:57:01.520 that is such a beautiful point and you know
00:57:05.220 what uh francis said to me oh let's get julia
00:57:08.240 on she's fierce and you'll probably disagree
00:57:10.420 with her a lot and look there'll be stuff that
00:57:12.180 we disagree but i i'm really appreciating i can
00:57:15.080 tell that you're a person who thinks for
00:57:16.500 themselves and who who's authentic about
00:57:19.160 what they say and i i love that i really enjoy
00:57:21.380 that conversation and this is such an
00:57:23.360 important point because we were having this
00:57:25.360 argument just the other day you know
00:57:26.660 there are people who are who've committed
00:57:29.740 terrible acts against children particularly
00:57:32.460 but created great music or great art and
00:57:35.160 whatever i don't know i don't know what to
00:57:37.740 do with that i i don't i i don't have an
00:57:40.780 answer what do we do with those people how
00:57:42.720 do we do we cancel their music do we stop
00:57:44.960 listening to the music do we you know what
00:57:47.740 do we do as a society with people who've done
00:57:49.580 something terrible yeah i mean on a a kind
00:57:52.120 of i suppose less extreme level yeah the
00:57:55.760 music of snoop dogg so i love rap and hip
00:57:58.780 hop me too and i love snoop dogg and i went
00:58:02.480 to glastonbury to interview him and went to
00:58:05.180 his concert a few years ago and there were
00:58:08.420 some feminists that were horrified how can
00:58:09.960 you be a feminist well sorry godfather 2 is
00:58:12.340 my favorite film what do you mean how can you
00:58:14.380 be a feminist and like the music of snoop
00:58:17.260 dog or like a particular film it's called
00:58:20.640 entertainment and it's called being
00:58:23.200 selective with what you like and don't
00:58:25.980 like so i don't actually like snoop dogg's
00:58:29.760 lyrics when he calls women hoes and
00:58:31.880 bitches kel surprise but i kind of can
00:58:36.560 manage to navigate what i do like without
00:58:40.240 saying i actually like snoop dogg's music
00:58:43.000 which means i like him calling women hoes
00:58:45.640 and bitches i mean we do this all the time
00:58:48.860 and it used to be perfectly acceptable to
00:58:51.900 have friends with whom you profoundly
00:58:53.600 disagree
00:58:54.180 do you remember those yes yes this i like
00:58:57.840 some tories i mean actually one of the um
00:59:00.780 slogan t-shirt slogans that really winds me
00:59:03.600 up is never kissed a tori well i don't think
00:59:06.180 i've ever kissed a tori either but there are
00:59:09.220 some that i actually quite like as individuals
00:59:12.760 as human beings whose company i enjoy and
00:59:17.400 when did that stop being all right because
00:59:20.780 isn't that how we get to know whether or not
00:59:24.120 we've shifted our opinions on things and i
00:59:27.200 suppose some people are just so arrogant that
00:59:28.880 they think i formed all of my opinions they're
00:59:30.520 all correct and that's it now they're stagnant and
00:59:33.620 they'll never change i mean i think i'd probably
00:59:36.320 shoot myself if i ever became a tori but you
00:59:39.520 know i i understand i learn from from people i
00:59:43.640 hope for example when i met um my my partner's
00:59:47.940 father ernest wistrich he got written into
00:59:51.480 europe with george soros in the 70s he he ran
00:59:54.600 the um the referendum and he taught me so much
00:59:59.660 about europe because i used to go mad when i
01:00:02.140 started going to european parliament and saw
01:00:04.740 the fat cats and saw some of the things that we
01:00:07.180 really would have wanted to reform if we'd
01:00:08.760 remained um i used to go absolutely berserk and
01:00:13.300 he would explain things to me about how things
01:00:15.440 worked and he was out of the european movement
01:00:17.480 for a long time and of course i was pro-european
01:00:23.080 but what i didn't understand until we had these
01:00:26.680 conversations was how he became such an ardent
01:00:30.440 european and it was so we didn't ever have
01:00:33.200 another inter-european war and that's the bit
01:00:37.680 that's missing from a lot of the kind of pro-remain
01:00:41.880 arguments you know ernest you know his his family
01:00:45.840 some of his family perished in the holocaust
01:00:48.080 he got out in time and his mother was there you
01:00:51.800 know was in poland throughout the war in hiding
01:00:54.280 and just by listening to him talk about these things i really shifted my position
01:01:01.320 on some of that and we would also have conversations he was he was a liberal and he defended pornography
01:01:11.100 and in fact my mother-in-law enid wistrich she was the um she was under ken livingstone's um
01:01:18.240 glc she opposed mary whitehouse the two were loggerheads over censorship so she would just pass all the films
01:01:26.000 you know that one's fine that's fine that's fine there was all kinds of like rabid bonking and
01:01:31.380 sadism going on and enid was saying no as a good liberal i want you know
01:01:35.380 but actually we we would talk about that as you know two feminists anti the porn industry
01:01:42.560 and these two ardent liberals and we shifted their positions also
01:01:47.940 so we'd have these great conversations across big issues
01:01:52.640 and we would change each other's minds
01:01:55.720 you're gonna make me cry julie
01:01:57.040 oh you are i miss those days but that's what we try and do on this show you know and i like i say
01:02:03.280 i'm i've really enjoyed the conversation because i crave this i miss this and the fact that society
01:02:09.460 no longer allows us to do this in public to me that's a crime i agree that's criminal that we
01:02:16.080 can't have because you've come in here and i i'm someone who makes jokes about feminism all the time
01:02:21.000 you've actually shown me there are bits of feminism that are absolutely fucking essential
01:02:25.440 absolutely essential and they need to be addressed and you know we've had we have a close friend of
01:02:31.840 who's who's a woman very very high achieving woman single mom of you know doing great and she's
01:02:39.200 someone who's not i don't think would say that she's a feminist but when she was talking about
01:02:42.820 domestic violence
01:02:43.700 you know you sit and listen and you go okay this is a bit that i was missing
01:02:48.580 you know that's what we need more of we need conversation i agree
01:02:53.520 yeah and actually the biggest myth about feminism and feminists like me is that we're man haters
01:03:00.440 we are the most optimistic political movement on the planet because we don't actually think that boys
01:03:06.280 are born programmed to hate or hurt or abuse women not at all and we know that those men even those that are
01:03:14.780 entrenched in misogynistic points of view and they are in the minority that we can all change
01:03:22.800 we can all look back and think whoa i used to be x y and z and actually that was really unhealthy
01:03:28.820 and i feel so much better now that i've actually thought about it a bit more all of us so so actually
01:03:34.160 feminists are the opposite of man hating we hate the the abuse that is is condoned um and justified
01:03:42.020 by some men as well as those that carry out the abuse but we absolutely celebrate the fact that we can
01:03:49.560 also work with men uh to challenge these you know this state of play so we are we're very lovely
01:03:59.080 actually us probably we're so nice
01:04:01.860 so the question that i want to ask and the last one is what do we do about an industry like prostitution
01:04:13.300 what do we do about it julie because the reality is we have male libido male libido is what it is
01:04:17.920 it's the oldest profession in the world quote unquote what do we do about it
01:04:23.320 yeah this is this is where
01:04:27.220 it's gonna go well what do we it's a crucial question yeah and the reason i wrote my last
01:04:35.260 previous book um was because this question was put to me all the time by people who would say look
01:04:41.820 it's the oldest profession and i would say well it's the oldest depression you know midwifery and
01:04:45.900 agriculture are probably the oldest profession it's not a profession anyway and and actually
01:04:50.280 male libido i mean clearly you know as a hardline lesbian i know very little about that what i do know
01:04:56.040 is that if men want more sex than do women which which is i think a myth and i think that's part of a
01:05:01.580 social construct about women being blamed and punished for wanting sex i think women are reluctant to
01:05:07.680 admit that they want sex and men it's a great badge of honor isn't it that you're a red-blooded man who
01:05:12.720 wants loads of sex permanent stiffy all the rest of it but that if men want more sex than do women
01:05:18.740 well it's what your right hand's for mate i mean you don't want to be having sex with women you don't
01:05:22.840 want to have sex with you it's called rape you know and and although we don't see prostitution sex
01:05:28.200 as rape because there's the cash is supposedly the consent what are men doing having sex with a woman
01:05:35.040 who doesn't want it with him you know it's it's really it's not good and and the cash is the
01:05:40.160 coercion if the cash didn't didn't play a part in it she wouldn't want sex with men is she the clue is
01:05:47.340 it's not a real date so what do we do about it well the smoke screen the the woman who is the happy
01:05:56.060 hooker is always put up as the smoke screen for actually men's privilege and men's entitlement
01:06:01.620 we shouldn't be saying this woman wants to be in sex work this woman has the right to choose how can
01:06:08.540 you as a feminist tell a woman what not to do with her body which is why i don't what i say is men don't
01:06:13.980 have a right to pay for sex so what we do about the sex trade is we recognize that the vast vast majority
01:06:21.020 of women want out so we think about alternatives and we think about exit strategies because they'll come
01:06:26.500 running to them they every single time that any exit strategies are suggested to women rather than
01:06:33.140 a cup of tea and a condom they they take up the offer and we say to men okay it's a bit like smoking
01:06:40.660 in public buildings guys right so it's harmful to other people so what you're doing it's not a victimless
01:06:47.760 crime and we're going to have a big public awareness campaign around why prostitution is
01:06:54.360 harmful and why you don't need it your dick won't fall off if you don't get your rocks off when you
01:06:59.340 want it with whom exactly how you want it so therefore we criminalize the paying for sex but
01:07:05.200 we don't put men in the stocks or in prison or um it's a kind of deterrent and you know you're going
01:07:11.860 to get fined and you're going to it's going to be down on your record and we help the women get out
01:07:17.800 and we change attitudes we change hearts and minds and they've done this in several countries
01:07:22.580 sweden was the first one in 1999 to criminalize the demand and that would apply to women also but
01:07:28.980 it's men it's women don't pay for sex as the general rule they just don't and of course most
01:07:34.060 prostituted people are women but it applies you know the support and exiting strategies are there
01:07:39.280 for any person in prostitution and yeah i think it's been rolled out in several countries
01:07:45.540 it's called the abolitionist model because it's there's a kind of a view the end game is
01:07:52.200 an end prostitution and when people say you can't end prostitution well why it's not there's nothing
01:07:59.180 natural or innate about it you you wouldn't say that about child poverty or or racism you you know
01:08:06.020 it's a hard ask but you would never say we'll never get rid of child abuse i'll tell you what
01:08:10.700 we'll do you know we'll just make it a bit safer for them when they're being abused you know we we see
01:08:17.560 our role um as eradicating a social ill so i think we need to have a conversation about
01:08:25.920 why do we assume men need sex why do we assume men have a right to sex there are many
01:08:35.020 men who can't get a real date and i'm sorry that they can't get a real date but that happens to
01:08:45.400 women as well and women don't actually order you know sex on wheels to come around to her house
01:08:51.500 so she can get her rocks off with someone who doesn't want to get their rocks off with her
01:08:55.780 it's a male thing it's a man thing it's true it is um well i was going to go to our last question but
01:09:03.020 if i let me tell you how to do feminism correctly julie no the only thing i would personally just say
01:09:10.300 is that i i'm someone who actually agrees with a lot of what you just said i would never want to
01:09:16.520 have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me i would never i'd never have and never
01:09:20.260 would use a sex worker not because it's deeply immoral in this just because it doesn't accord
01:09:26.940 with what i think about that issue um but i also think your message would reach me better i'm not
01:09:33.660 talking necessarily about other people if it was if you were talking about rather than talking about
01:09:38.240 men you were talking about the specific people who use that you see what i'm saying yes that's that's
01:09:44.400 all i would say no i think that's absolutely right most men don't pay for sex and this is something
01:09:49.520 that i always always make the point about that in this country the latest figures most recent figures
01:09:56.820 are around 11 of men have at some time paid for sex so many of them will not be entrenched buyers
01:10:03.420 and i've interviewed a lot of men who pay for sex and some of them are deeply ambivalent about it
01:10:09.020 and actually don't really enjoy it that much and some are absolute hardcore this is my right
01:10:15.380 i want to do things to her that a woman i wasn't paying would say no to which is really hideous
01:10:23.360 but most men don't and then you've got countries like spain where they have a much higher
01:10:30.200 rate of sex buyers so something like 38 40 percent because they've legalized and normalized the sex trade
01:10:38.220 to the point of where it's seen as just going out and buying a burger germany where it's legalized
01:10:42.880 you've got um 60 euros um a 60 euro deal at certain times of the day in the mega brothels
01:10:52.520 which is a beer a burger and bang all you can all night and you know there are there are horrendous
01:11:02.420 things that go on in those brothels there are men that ask for heavily pregnant women there are gang
01:11:07.180 bangs all seen as perfectly fine because cash is changing hands and so we need to look at the
01:11:14.680 culture of prostitution and dispel the myths and and really kind of unpick all of the mythology around
01:11:20.940 it the fact that it's a woman's right almost like we're talking about bodily autonomy this is not about
01:11:27.640 her right or her lack of right she doesn't want to be there and you're right it's i agree with you
01:11:34.240 it has to be addressing the sex buyer and not the male population in general because you'd get the
01:11:41.880 rest of the male population on board with you i just think more effectively if that was the way
01:11:45.900 which which we need we need to do and in fact you know i've met through this work i've met many men
01:11:52.220 in particular actually men who are disabled who are also held up as a smoke screen so but what about
01:11:59.140 men who are disabled who've right one example i was given a few years ago was a returning uh veteran
01:12:06.480 from the iraq war he's had his legs blown off he's almost a paraplegic interestingly he can still get it
01:12:14.480 up so he wants sex and it's as though he's entitled he's not but also there are many disabled men
01:12:24.800 who actually do have a real date who do are in relationships and some who are not but it's deeply
01:12:31.940 offensive to disabled people to say that you should be able to buy sex because it's clear no one wants
01:12:38.300 to shag you so you need to pay for it so we need to unpick all of the mythology around it and one is
01:12:45.540 poor disabled men who can't get a real date that's used a lot i've heard that a lot all right well i think
01:12:51.060 we've probably covered everything today we've offended everybody that's fantastic julie it's been
01:12:56.220 a genuine pleasure a genuine pleasure thank you so much for coming on we have one final question for
01:13:01.680 you which is always the same what is the one before we do our locals questions which is what
01:13:06.140 is the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be rape
01:13:11.620 we think we talk about it a lot because it's always in the news in one guise or another
01:13:18.360 but we don't talk about what it actually is we don't talk about it as an expression of hatred and
01:13:25.520 control and sexual entitlement and that's the conversation that we're missing we see it as sex
01:13:33.300 we see it as force and it's actually about neither of those things and why is that important julia i'm
01:13:38.980 asking because i i don't know much about it why is that distinction so important because it's so
01:13:43.500 commonplace that if we think about it as being committed by monsters who literally force a woman
01:13:48.760 by holding a gun to her head we only look at the most extreme cases that are very rare
01:13:54.260 and we don't look at the rape culture in which we live it's very commonplace ask pretty much any
01:14:01.320 married woman of a particular age and ask if she has if she's had sex with her partner her male
01:14:08.840 partner recently that she didn't want to have you don't call it rape to her or you'll get a very
01:14:14.700 different answer and she will tell you yes she's been coerced into sex and that's pretty much every
01:14:21.080 woman under the age of 30 that i speak to it's much more prevalent than we think and it really
01:14:28.320 isn't the the masked marauder carrying a knife breaking into women's houses that happens but
01:14:34.420 it's rare julie it's been an absolute pleasure thank you so much for coming on the show if people
01:14:40.080 want to find you where's the best place to do that twitter where i'm always hanging out getting into
01:14:44.840 arguments and of course uh get the book uh feminism for women the real liberation julie binnell thank you
01:14:52.040 so much uh we are going to do a couple of questions for our supporters only which you can access by joining
01:14:56.840 our locals but in the meantime thank you so much for watching this brilliant interview uh we'll see
01:15:01.660 you very soon with another one or or show all of them go out at 7 p.m uk time and for those of you
01:15:06.740 who like your trigonometry on the go it's also available as a podcast take care and see you soon
01:15:12.180 guys we hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview remember to subscribe and hit the bell
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