TRIGGERnometry - An Honest Conversation With Nigel Farage

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00:01:43.920 I still don't think people understand what's about to happen.

00:01:53.020 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:57.000 I'm Constantine Kisham.

00:01:58.060 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:02:03.640 Our brilliant and returning guest needs very little introduction.

00:02:06.980 Nigel Farage, welcome back to Trigonometry.

00:02:08.700 It's good to be here and not doing it via bloomin' Zoom.

00:02:11.720 I couldn't agree with you more. It's a real pleasure.

00:02:13.960 So good to have you back.

00:02:15.480 Let's get straight into it, Nigel.

00:02:16.840 One of the questions that I've been meaning to ask you, because as you know, Francis and I will both remain voters, but very open to the democratic argument.

00:02:22.880 And by the way, I've been persuaded by some of the arguments guests have made on the show in the past about it.

00:02:27.900 Would you vote remain today?

00:02:30.220 I doubt it.

00:02:31.460 I wouldn't. No.

00:02:32.340 No, I doubt it.

00:02:33.480 I doubt it.

00:02:34.180 I think we've seen that the economic disaster that is happening is happening for other reasons now that we were promised.

00:02:43.040 You know, we still got sandwiches.

00:02:44.320 I thought we were going to lose those.

00:02:45.660 Yeah.

00:02:45.860 And look, I think this is the issue I was going to ask you about, because the one thing that Brexit hasn't delivered, which I think a lot of people thought it would, is the reduction in immigration, right?

00:02:55.440 And I've always been in favour of a sensible immigration policy as an immigrant myself.

00:02:59.380 I don't see why we should have open borders or people should be able to come without doing the checks and all of that.

00:03:05.140 But that hasn't happened, Nigel, has it?

00:03:07.040 Do you know, despite the way that I was portrayed for year after year after year for even daring to discuss the subject and kind of Enoch Powell did the immigration argument huge harm all the way back in the mists of 1968,

00:03:22.300 that after that moment in time, it became almost the unacceptable subject to discuss in British politics.

00:03:28.600 Thatcher talked a little bit about it, but generally you couldn't talk about it.

00:03:33.360 I'd always argued that we had a discriminatory immigration system.

00:03:38.680 We were in favour of anybody from the continent of Europe, and we put barriers up to the rest of the world.

00:03:44.300 So I was making the argument that we should have a points-based style system, regardless of where you came from.

00:03:52.860 And that we absolutely should not discriminate against the Commonwealth.

00:03:56.460 You know, people with whom we have a lot of shared history, common language, you know, all of those things.

00:04:03.660 What was really interesting when the referendum finally came, and the referendum finally came because of the surge in the UKIP vote,

00:04:12.040 and the immigration argument, or actually the impact on people's lives of uncontrolled mass immigration on a scale Britain had never seen,

00:04:21.200 when it came to the referendum, the Conservatives and Labour MPs that joined Vote Leave did not want to discuss this subject.

00:04:33.120 Didn't want to discuss it.

00:04:34.280 All too difficult, all too awkward, not popular at Notting Hill dinner parties.

00:04:39.840 And in the end, they realised, to win the referendum, it couldn't just be us talking about it, myself and Aaron Banks.

00:04:47.480 They had to be involved.

00:04:48.780 There was a lovely cartoon, when they first mentioned Australian style points system,

00:04:52.520 a lovely cartoon in the Telegraph, and it was me drinking a pint.

00:04:56.400 It was quite normal, but drinking a pint of Australian points system beer.

00:05:01.460 Sounds like a photograph, not a cartoon.

00:05:03.180 Well, it could have been, and there was Boris and Gove saying,

00:05:06.180 Barman, we'll have the same as he's having.

00:05:08.200 So in the end, they talked about it, but never with any sincerity.

00:05:12.300 And whenever Boris has been asked about immigration since the referendum,

00:05:15.520 oh, well, it's absolutely marvellous, because we're getting back control of who comes into Britain.

00:05:19.660 But never, ever has he begun to hint that it would be a reduction of numbers.

00:05:24.560 So you've actually got a Conservative Party who, on the immigration theme,

00:05:29.920 and frankly, for most of them, on Brexit, just embraced it for a career opportunity.

00:05:34.840 Never actually really believed in it, and numbers are not reducing.

00:05:39.540 But of course, it's the illegal immigration that's leading to the anger.

00:05:42.320 It's what's happening in the English Channel.

00:05:44.100 And that was the story that I really picked up on right at the start of lockdown.

00:05:48.080 And I started going out into the English Channel, filming what was going on,

00:05:53.620 getting roundly condemned.

00:05:55.520 But actually, I think I did help make that a much bigger media issue than it is.

00:06:00.000 So yeah, any thought that because we voted Brexit,

00:06:03.500 immigration's been dealt with, and it's therefore no longer a political issue,

00:06:07.020 is for the birds.

00:06:08.940 So yes, I'm disappointed.

00:06:10.660 The problem is, Nigel, is that people voted for this

00:06:13.800 in the expectation that immigration was going to be lowered.

00:06:16.780 It hasn't been.

00:06:18.280 So where do we go from here?

00:06:21.080 Yeah, as I say, I, you know, the Conservative Party is a pretty vile organisation.

00:06:27.120 You know, they cynically, I mean, you know, it took them a long time.

00:06:31.220 It took them to the summer of 2019 to really embrace the narrative,

00:06:35.800 but not the delivery.

00:06:37.440 I think we are at a moment with British politics

00:06:41.280 where our levels of disenchantment with the system and with the people

00:06:46.220 are even worse than they were before the insurgency

00:06:50.960 that led to the referendum in the first place.

00:06:54.820 I don't know is the answer to that.

00:06:56.540 I genuinely don't know.

00:06:57.940 I mean, I think at some point Boris goes.

00:07:00.740 All right?

00:07:01.600 At some...

00:07:02.220 Please, dear God.

00:07:03.640 I know, it's agony, isn't it?

00:07:04.920 You know, wait for the Sue Gray report,

00:07:07.380 wait for the Metropolitan Police, whatever it is.

00:07:09.960 My anger with Boris actually isn't the passes.

00:07:12.020 No.

00:07:12.180 I mean, I'm annoyed.

00:07:15.180 My anger is the betrayal of what so many people wanted.

00:07:20.600 And you've raised the immigration question,

00:07:22.300 but actually that's part of something bigger.

00:07:26.340 Brexit led people to believe that a new type of politics was coming.

00:07:30.920 A real hope, an anticipation of a new kind of politics.

00:07:34.660 And we've gone back to the old Etonian, Oxbridge, PPE degree,

00:07:39.960 chumocracy of upper-middle-class people,

00:07:43.880 rabbiting on about net zero.

00:07:45.980 Well, if you live in Richmond in a £5 million house,

00:07:48.560 net zero is absolutely marvellous, darling.

00:07:51.180 Because, you know, it doesn't matter to us,

00:07:53.500 it costs £25,000 to put a heat pump on the side of the house,

00:07:56.020 or, oh, we'll have a new Tesla.

00:07:58.040 You know, I mean, that's the kind of government it's become.

00:08:00.980 So I think what will happen is this.

00:08:02.900 Boris will go.

00:08:05.820 My sense of it is that the 5th of May will be a disaster.

00:08:10.620 That's the local elections where, you know,

00:08:12.860 councils they hold like Wandsworth, Westminster,

00:08:15.120 are really seriously in play.

00:08:17.580 The next Conservative leadership election

00:08:19.620 will be an existential battle

00:08:21.220 for the future of Conservatism in this country.

00:08:23.940 You know, it'll be Rishi on one side,

00:08:26.120 representing tax and spend, big state, social democracy.

00:08:30.000 I mean, you know, literally not, you know,

00:08:33.760 a Ritzler paper between him and Keir Starmer,

00:08:36.300 really, on the big issues of the day.

00:08:38.180 And then there'll be somebody standing up for what I think

00:08:42.340 and understand Conservatism to be,

00:08:44.480 mainly, you know, individual responsibility,

00:08:47.980 opportunity, and the state not controlling your life.

00:08:51.360 And if that battle's lost, I don't know where we go.

00:08:55.180 You see, Brexit happened because of an insurgency.

00:08:59.360 And there was a means by which that could be expressed.

00:09:02.860 Breaking the first-past-the-post electoral system,

00:09:05.480 I mean, changing anything in this country

00:09:07.340 is really very, very difficult.

00:09:10.880 You know, in fact, in some ways,

00:09:11.820 I look at Brexit almost as a miracle.

00:09:13.240 Well, given the mass battalions that were there on the side

00:09:17.820 of not even having a conversation about it 10 years ago.

00:09:20.880 So we're in a very difficult place.

00:09:23.380 If you could go back to the 2019 general election,

00:09:26.200 because you didn't put forward candidates

00:09:28.860 from the Brexit party in constituencies

00:09:31.920 where Conservatives were.

00:09:33.700 Do you think, looking at the way Brexit has happened,

00:09:36.420 do you think that was a mistake now, Nigel?

00:09:37.920 That is a very good question.

00:09:40.640 And I'm not saying that's just a play for time.

00:09:43.060 Which is what they normally do.

00:09:45.900 I've thought a lot about that.

00:09:49.880 I've thought a lot about that.

00:09:53.460 I could have put candidates up

00:09:57.200 against all the sitting MPs.

00:10:00.560 I could have gone round the country rubbishing the deal,

00:10:05.060 saying that it will split Northern Ireland off from the country.

00:10:07.560 It's an economic and environmental catastrophe

00:10:10.760 for our fisheries.

00:10:11.860 I could have done that.

00:10:13.420 I could have rubbished the whole thing.

00:10:16.160 But, you know, in that particular election,

00:10:20.360 2015, UKIP took more Labour votes than Tory votes.

00:10:24.220 We actually helped the Tories.

00:10:25.460 I mean, they weren't bright enough to understand it then.

00:10:27.840 And I've never been thankful, but I wouldn't expect that.

00:10:30.820 But in 2019, it was different.

00:10:32.340 And if I had gone ahead with that strategy,

00:10:36.940 I think it would have led to 40 or 50 Lib Dem seats.

00:10:40.760 Particularly in...

00:10:41.520 I think, frankly, from Isha through to Land's End,

00:10:46.240 there would have been an orange wool.

00:10:49.740 A Lib Dem wool.

00:10:52.140 They thought that too.

00:10:53.540 In fact, she admitted after the election

00:10:55.100 that my decision had just poleaxed the Lib Dems.

00:10:58.620 So what I feared was a Labour, Lib Dem, SNP majority

00:11:03.200 in the House of Commons,

00:11:05.400 taking us back into a second referendum,

00:11:07.380 and goodness knows what,

00:11:08.860 and a breakdown of trust far more serious

00:11:11.680 than what we're talking about sitting here this morning.

00:11:14.620 On balance, it was the right thing to do.

00:11:16.960 I am disappointed in Johnson.

00:11:22.080 I mean, not that I've ever really believed in him.

00:11:24.480 Well, no, I mean, it's not about...

00:11:26.100 For him, it's all about rank, title, position.

00:11:29.900 It's not really about policy.

00:11:31.380 It's not really about principle.

00:11:33.080 But no, looking back, despite everything,

00:11:35.340 it was still the right thing to do.

00:11:37.120 And Nigel, you wrote an article recently,

00:11:38.600 I think, in The Telegraph,

00:11:39.500 about there's a brewing revolt on the right.

00:11:41.360 And I think you do say that you're ready to be part of it.

00:11:43.880 Now, you're obviously doing great work on GB News.

00:11:46.120 You've got a very popular show on there.

00:11:47.960 Would you consider coming back

00:11:49.980 and trying to create some kind of other insurgency?

00:11:52.660 And let me ask you...

00:11:53.360 Well...

00:11:53.660 Let me explain why I'm asking this question,

00:11:55.240 because everything you've said so far

00:11:56.680 suggests to me that, OK,

00:11:58.620 someone like you can come along

00:11:59.960 and you can lead a movement

00:12:00.860 that will inspire people to vote for something.

00:12:03.320 But at the end of the day,

00:12:04.100 it's going to be one of the two major parties

00:12:05.600 delivering whatever it is that you inspire,

00:12:09.660 and they're not going to do the thing

00:12:10.980 that a lot of people voted for.

00:12:12.280 It's difficult for me.

00:12:13.040 I mean, look, number one,

00:12:15.680 I did it for a hell of a long time.

00:12:18.360 Yeah.

00:12:18.960 I mean, I was in the front lines,

00:12:21.000 you know, for year after year after year.

00:12:24.840 European elections, no problem.

00:12:27.720 Proportional representation,

00:12:29.420 no question what the issue was.

00:12:31.320 And I led parties that won in 2014 and 2019.

00:12:35.260 Two national election victories

00:12:36.920 leading two different parties.

00:12:38.680 No one's ever done that before.

00:12:39.560 But in 2015,

00:12:42.160 when I put my heart and soul

00:12:43.460 into a general election campaign

00:12:44.960 and get four million votes and one seat,

00:12:48.480 it's quite tough to ask me to do that again.

00:12:51.220 You know, could I go around the country,

00:12:53.200 you know, and really ferment

00:12:55.540 another big political insurgency?

00:12:58.260 Could I get even more votes

00:13:00.000 than I got in 2015?

00:13:02.440 Probably.

00:13:04.040 But what would it lead to?

00:13:06.180 And for me to do that again is very, very difficult.

00:13:09.660 Did it take a lot out of you?

00:13:11.460 Well, I've given a fair bit already to this.

00:13:13.160 But, but, so, I think that,

00:13:18.620 and you were going to mention GB News,

00:13:20.400 but whether it's GB News,

00:13:22.300 whether it's 3.3 million people

00:13:24.320 following on social media,

00:13:26.660 whether it's things that I write for The Telegraph

00:13:29.400 or whatever it is,

00:13:31.580 I still think I can move the needle.

00:13:34.700 I still think I can shift the centre of gravity

00:13:36.460 of public opinion on issues.

00:13:39.620 I'm honorary president of Reform UK.

00:13:42.980 It's a bit like sort of being pushed upstairs.

00:13:46.460 And Richard Tice has got the energy

00:13:48.700 to go out there and do it.

00:13:50.400 So he's got my full support.

00:13:52.040 I mean, I'll be honest with you,

00:13:54.560 every day I get emails saying,

00:13:58.160 you've got to come back,

00:13:59.000 you've got to come back,

00:13:59.840 you've got to come back.

00:14:01.340 It's not top of my bucket list,

00:14:03.140 having done it for all those years.

00:14:04.920 But you know what?

00:14:06.460 Never say never.

00:14:07.460 Oh.

00:14:08.620 Well, if, and I've said already to you

00:14:11.540 that when Boris goes, as and when that is,

00:14:14.540 there is going to be this battle.

00:14:16.880 Is the Conservative Party going to become

00:14:18.840 just a social Democrat party?

00:14:21.060 Are we going to stick in the Osborne-Cameron mould?

00:14:26.760 Is it going to be a party that looks after those

00:14:28.600 that already have plenty?

00:14:30.060 Or is it going to be that kind of aspirational,

00:14:33.120 ambitious party that wants to support enterprise,

00:14:35.840 energy, social advancement?

00:14:39.600 And if it does go back to that social Democrat centre,

00:14:43.000 and if the choice between, you know,

00:14:45.820 Starmer and Sunak, let's say,

00:14:48.360 in 2024, was negligible,

00:14:51.420 then I can't rule it out.

00:14:53.140 It's not what I want to do,

00:14:54.680 but I'll be honest with you,

00:14:56.020 I enjoyed so much of what I did in politics,

00:15:01.320 despite the nastiness.

00:15:02.660 And there's barely a photograph of me touring the country

00:15:04.780 where I'm not having a laugh,

00:15:06.440 or meeting people and having fun.

00:15:08.900 But it's a pretty tough place to be.

00:15:13.580 It's not an easy place to be.

00:15:16.260 And the trouble with it is,

00:15:19.180 you're not responsible just for yourself.

00:15:23.680 You're responsible for what the branch chairman

00:15:26.120 of some obscure suburb of Sheffield

00:15:29.140 said on Twitter at quarter past two in the morning

00:15:32.180 after five glasses of red wine.

00:15:33.660 Whereas what I do now,

00:15:36.480 I'm directly accountable.

00:15:38.860 If I make a mess of things,

00:15:40.260 that's down to me.

00:15:41.680 So, I mean, I'm enjoying life now.

00:15:43.280 I've enjoyed, you know,

00:15:45.040 since the referendum of 16,

00:15:46.400 I've enjoyed getting into broadcasting,

00:15:48.500 something I'd never done before.

00:15:50.040 And I'm enjoying that.

00:15:51.560 I've enjoyed, you know,

00:15:54.080 not having to be hands-on

00:15:56.620 and living on the road six days a week,

00:15:59.240 which I did for 20 years.

00:16:01.000 I mean, literally six days a week on the road,

00:16:03.200 and I'm enjoying not doing that.

00:16:05.320 I've enjoyed being able,

00:16:07.200 after almost 20 years out of it,

00:16:09.320 to get back to where I started

00:16:10.760 in financial markets, you know,

00:16:13.520 and putting together, you know,

00:16:16.160 as a daily email,

00:16:17.140 fortune and freedom goes to 85,000 people.

00:16:19.620 Well, I'm trying to help people

00:16:20.860 not get ripped off

00:16:22.140 by the financial services industry.

00:16:24.300 So there are lots of things that I've done

00:16:25.900 in the last few years

00:16:27.400 that means, you know,

00:16:28.280 life is pretty cool.

00:16:31.460 Life is pretty good,

00:16:32.300 but never say never.

00:16:33.880 Nigel,

00:16:35.020 do you think we're in political crisis now?

00:16:37.020 This is a question I ask most of our guests.

00:16:39.520 And when I started asking it,

00:16:41.520 I wasn't sure,

00:16:42.980 but I think we are.

00:16:44.180 What do you think?

00:16:45.880 I,

00:16:47.000 trust is a very important word.

00:16:49.820 As I say,

00:16:50.640 Brexit raised the hopes.

00:16:52.880 Some were in despair over Brexit,

00:16:55.220 but they're quite a small,

00:16:56.500 they're quite a small minority.

00:16:58.420 You know,

00:16:58.640 and guys like you that voted Remain,

00:16:59.980 well,

00:17:00.160 now you see it differently

00:17:01.080 and that's fine.

00:17:03.640 But for a lot of people,

00:17:05.900 there was this sort of new dawn

00:17:07.780 that Brexit was going to bring

00:17:09.800 a different kind of politics.

00:17:10.760 It hasn't happened.

00:17:12.480 And so,

00:17:12.800 yes,

00:17:13.020 I think it is a breakdown of trust,

00:17:15.100 a belief that the system doesn't serve us.

00:17:18.000 And,

00:17:18.380 you know,

00:17:18.560 I can look right through the whole thing.

00:17:20.280 I mean,

00:17:20.500 the House of Lords is an abomination.

00:17:22.860 You know,

00:17:23.120 just stuff full of mates

00:17:24.120 of prime ministers

00:17:24.800 and party donors.

00:17:25.820 The whole thing's a disgrace.

00:17:27.980 The electoral system,

00:17:29.700 even when you get radical shifts

00:17:31.640 in general elections,

00:17:32.800 two thirds of seats in Britain are safe.

00:17:35.060 You know,

00:17:35.240 if you live in somewhere

00:17:36.300 with a massive Labour majority

00:17:37.540 or a massive Tory majority,

00:17:39.200 they're quite voting,

00:17:39.940 is there?

00:17:41.140 We can't change anything.

00:17:42.920 You know,

00:17:43.100 an older generation would say...

00:17:44.460 But what about the Red Wall,

00:17:45.440 Nigel?

00:17:45.880 I mean,

00:17:46.120 that went,

00:17:46.600 didn't it,

00:17:46.820 in the 2019?

00:17:47.760 You had lots of constituents.

00:17:48.680 Well,

00:17:48.800 the Red Wall went years before that.

00:17:50.940 The Red Wall all voted UKIP

00:17:52.440 and the Brexit Party.

00:17:53.660 The Red Wall was crumbling

00:17:54.960 in 2013.

00:17:57.160 You know,

00:17:57.460 they were the Labour voters

00:17:58.720 that were coming to me

00:18:00.180 and coming to UKIP

00:18:00.940 in very large numbers.

00:18:02.700 You know,

00:18:03.000 I was the gateway drug

00:18:04.080 through to what happened

00:18:06.180 in 2019.

00:18:07.560 So,

00:18:08.060 yes,

00:18:08.900 there are places

00:18:10.020 where you can get change,

00:18:11.320 but there are still

00:18:11.860 vast parts of this country

00:18:13.820 where your vote

00:18:14.700 makes no difference at all,

00:18:16.080 where there is no degree

00:18:17.060 of proportionality

00:18:18.000 in Westminster

00:18:19.100 whatsoever.

00:18:20.000 We have a postal voting system

00:18:22.620 that,

00:18:24.100 frankly,

00:18:25.600 just leaves us wide open

00:18:26.920 to fraud,

00:18:28.120 abuse,

00:18:28.520 intimidation

00:18:29.160 in the big cities.

00:18:31.260 So,

00:18:31.720 I mean,

00:18:31.860 I'm a radical about this,

00:18:33.180 a genuine radical

00:18:34.440 in the 18th century

00:18:35.420 use of that word.

00:18:36.880 You know,

00:18:37.180 I would like to see

00:18:37.980 complete root and branch reform

00:18:39.720 of our entire system

00:18:41.080 of governance.

00:18:42.180 I think Brexit

00:18:42.740 has got us back control

00:18:43.940 of our country.

00:18:45.020 It's now for us

00:18:45.780 to make sure

00:18:46.160 the country's actually

00:18:47.040 run properly.

00:18:48.080 And I think

00:18:49.240 to have a system

00:18:49.820 in England

00:18:50.240 where it's just

00:18:51.820 two parties

00:18:52.520 and there's no way

00:18:54.080 anybody else

00:18:54.900 can break through.

00:18:56.560 And even if they get close,

00:18:57.820 the establishment

00:18:58.280 just cheats.

00:19:00.100 Yeah,

00:19:00.700 I think there is

00:19:01.400 a crisis there.

00:19:02.500 And I,

00:19:04.360 the trouble is,

00:19:05.380 in the past,

00:19:07.300 when people ask me

00:19:07.960 questions like that,

00:19:09.360 I always had an answer

00:19:10.540 as to how I thought

00:19:12.500 we could break this up.

00:19:13.920 And right now,

00:19:14.600 I haven't got that answer.

00:19:16.020 Well,

00:19:16.180 the problem you have

00:19:17.000 is if you talk about

00:19:17.840 proportion representation,

00:19:19.100 forget about the merits

00:19:19.920 of the system.

00:19:20.360 How are you going to get it

00:19:21.500 if you've got two parties

00:19:22.680 that are massively invested

00:19:23.940 in keeping things

00:19:24.580 where they are?

00:19:24.960 And that's why

00:19:25.720 changing anything is difficult.

00:19:26.960 I mean,

00:19:27.260 equally,

00:19:28.340 we don't have open primaries.

00:19:31.500 You know,

00:19:31.720 if the Labour

00:19:32.240 and Conservative parties

00:19:33.280 had genuine open primaries,

00:19:34.660 we might get

00:19:36.560 a very different

00:19:37.340 kind of leadership.

00:19:38.720 I'll be honest with you,

00:19:40.200 if and when Boris goes,

00:19:41.520 if there were open primaries

00:19:42.720 in this country,

00:19:43.640 I would put my name forward.

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00:20:13.680 Nigel Farage,

00:20:17.880 Prime Minister,

00:20:18.480 Leader of Conservative Party.

00:20:19.180 No, I would put my name forward.

00:20:20.620 Yeah, yeah, I can see that.

00:20:21.800 Then you'd have a lot of support.

00:20:23.000 No, OK,

00:20:23.360 we're not a presidential system.

00:20:24.680 I get that.

00:20:25.360 But, you know,

00:20:26.420 the idea,

00:20:27.760 you love me or hate me,

00:20:28.620 but the idea that someone like me

00:20:29.640 is completely excluded from this.

00:20:32.240 I mean,

00:20:32.600 the Conservative Party

00:20:33.440 wouldn't even have me

00:20:34.060 as a member.

00:20:35.760 It's bizarre.

00:20:37.180 It's a very interesting...

00:20:38.440 It's bizarre.

00:20:38.920 It's a very...

00:20:39.620 I mean,

00:20:40.740 PR does have a lot of disadvantages.

00:20:42.520 I mean,

00:20:42.700 David Starkey,

00:20:43.380 who you've spoken with as well,

00:20:45.080 he made this point

00:20:45.740 when we had him on

00:20:46.380 a long time ago

00:20:47.220 that the one thing

00:20:48.540 about first past the post

00:20:50.400 is it prevents extremism

00:20:51.960 being reflected.

00:20:53.400 So,

00:20:54.080 that is a concern

00:20:56.200 where you might get,

00:20:57.440 you know,

00:20:57.720 BNP getting 5%,

00:20:59.020 not today,

00:21:00.380 but 10 years ago,

00:21:01.380 whenever we were in.

00:21:01.740 Do you know something?

00:21:02.360 I don't buy that.

00:21:03.340 I just don't buy that

00:21:04.260 because the BNP

00:21:05.300 did achieve that.

00:21:07.160 They got a million votes, yeah.

00:21:08.080 In the European elections of 2009,

00:21:10.760 the BNP did that.

00:21:12.520 And once they had

00:21:13.140 elected representatives,

00:21:14.440 look what happened.

00:21:15.560 You know,

00:21:15.680 it's very interesting

00:21:16.420 that when you put

00:21:17.500 a bit of sunlight

00:21:18.160 onto organisations like this,

00:21:20.200 they actually divide

00:21:21.740 and wither away

00:21:22.380 fairly quickly.

00:21:23.520 Of course,

00:21:24.160 there has to be a threshold,

00:21:26.280 you know,

00:21:26.460 a sensible threshold.

00:21:28.060 But why shouldn't,

00:21:29.980 if there's a big view

00:21:30.980 in this country,

00:21:32.280 why shouldn't that have

00:21:33.300 a degree of representation?

00:21:34.120 And the argument

00:21:36.120 against PR systems

00:21:38.080 is that it leads

00:21:39.300 to weak government.

00:21:40.200 Well,

00:21:40.320 frankly,

00:21:41.200 Germany since 1945

00:21:42.280 has pretty much had coalitions

00:21:44.140 all the way through.

00:21:44.980 And from what I can see,

00:21:45.640 they've done quite well.

00:21:47.660 So I,

00:21:48.380 you know,

00:21:49.720 first past the post

00:21:50.700 worked

00:21:51.300 when it genuinely

00:21:53.040 was a two-party system.

00:21:55.960 But even up until 1900,

00:21:58.480 we had multi-member wards.

00:22:00.240 Do you see?

00:22:02.160 It wasn't just one MP

00:22:04.140 that would represent

00:22:04.800 a district.

00:22:05.600 It was often two or three.

00:22:07.560 And that led,

00:22:08.520 despite the establishment

00:22:09.520 of political parties

00:22:10.900 and the Whigs

00:22:11.560 and the Tories,

00:22:12.280 the Liberals,

00:22:12.760 all that,

00:22:13.980 but it still allowed

00:22:15.100 for independents

00:22:16.320 to come through the system.

00:22:17.960 You know,

00:22:18.180 for other parties

00:22:19.120 like Joe Chamberlain's party

00:22:20.380 to win seats in Parliament.

00:22:22.600 We've got the worst

00:22:23.480 of all worlds here

00:22:24.400 where it's not

00:22:25.380 multi-member constituencies

00:22:26.700 and it's that rigid

00:22:27.780 first past the post.

00:22:28.900 So,

00:22:29.160 so look,

00:22:29.800 I do understand

00:22:31.140 that the link

00:22:31.640 between the man or woman

00:22:33.100 and Guilford

00:22:33.740 or wherever it is

00:22:35.100 is quite important.

00:22:37.000 But equally,

00:22:38.160 if you had a degree

00:22:39.260 of proportionality

00:22:40.140 in our system,

00:22:41.260 you get a much broader

00:22:42.660 range of debate

00:22:43.500 and arguments

00:22:44.160 happening in Parliament.

00:22:45.420 You get much more

00:22:46.440 interesting people

00:22:47.220 actually coming into politics

00:22:49.000 and doing it

00:22:49.940 because they believed

00:22:50.500 in causes

00:22:51.160 and not just for careers.

00:22:53.680 So I think a degree,

00:22:54.740 I said this earlier,

00:22:56.160 a degree of proportionality.

00:22:58.000 I'm not calling

00:22:58.660 for the whole thing

00:22:59.560 to be PR,

00:23:00.740 but a degree

00:23:01.280 of proportionality.

00:23:02.560 I think it'd be very good.

00:23:04.380 And as I say,

00:23:04.860 I think the House of Lords

00:23:05.720 is completely past

00:23:07.080 its sell-by date

00:23:07.900 that we have to have

00:23:09.120 some form of election

00:23:10.200 for the upper chamber.

00:23:12.580 And if that means

00:23:13.280 people get elected

00:23:13.860 for eight years,

00:23:14.500 ten years

00:23:14.920 and could just serve

00:23:15.460 one term,

00:23:16.740 so be it.

00:23:17.760 Speaking of proportionality

00:23:18.980 and sort of moving on

00:23:19.940 a little bit, Nigel,

00:23:20.520 we've obviously gone through

00:23:21.500 a very strange period

00:23:22.620 in the history of this country

00:23:23.860 and the world

00:23:24.360 over the last couple of years.

00:23:26.140 And we've seen,

00:23:27.080 you know,

00:23:27.320 I don't think you're

00:23:27.940 a big government guy.

00:23:31.160 I'm not a big government guy.

00:23:33.200 And yet we have seen,

00:23:34.080 I mean, on the continent,

00:23:35.060 you talk about Germany

00:23:36.000 and Austria, et cetera,

00:23:37.220 locking unvaccinated people

00:23:38.560 in their homes,

00:23:39.340 fining, et cetera.

00:23:40.420 But even in this country,

00:23:41.600 I mean,

00:23:42.040 I love this country.

00:23:43.760 I've made my home here.

00:23:44.760 And one of the reasons

00:23:45.460 I love it is

00:23:46.240 that you're free to do

00:23:47.880 what you think

00:23:48.440 is the right thing,

00:23:49.260 whatever the situation is.

00:23:50.840 And you're free

00:23:51.420 to have your opinion

00:23:52.120 until recently

00:23:52.980 and so on and so forth.

00:23:54.740 And over the last two years,

00:23:56.460 we have seen the state

00:23:58.180 attempting to interfere

00:23:59.440 in things that I just don't think

00:24:01.240 it has a role in,

00:24:02.200 you know.

00:24:03.240 What have you made

00:24:04.020 over the last two years

00:24:04.820 the sort of authoritative

00:24:05.800 vaccine passports,

00:24:07.340 the idea of vaccine mandates,

00:24:08.720 all of that?

00:24:09.100 I've been horrified

00:24:09.920 by it all.

00:24:11.620 And in the first 18 months

00:24:14.220 of this,

00:24:15.380 astonished

00:24:16.060 at the lack of pushback.

00:24:18.860 You know,

00:24:19.200 YouGov,

00:24:19.800 do a poll,

00:24:20.400 and, you know,

00:24:22.140 64% agree with lockdown

00:24:24.000 and 20% want to go further,

00:24:25.460 right?

00:24:25.680 Ah,

00:24:26.340 what's going on?

00:24:28.700 Do you know what?

00:24:29.640 In the end,

00:24:31.060 actually,

00:24:32.400 the good common sense

00:24:34.600 allied to a free press

00:24:37.080 have won the day.

00:24:39.500 Well,

00:24:39.680 let's remember,

00:24:40.200 we're sitting here

00:24:40.920 in the second week of February.

00:24:43.640 Mid-December,

00:24:45.580 we had Valance,

00:24:47.420 Witty,

00:24:48.340 the Brothers Grimm.

00:24:49.140 We have,

00:24:50.580 we have,

00:24:51.500 we have,

00:24:52.140 I'm going to steal that.

00:24:53.860 That is very good.

00:24:53.900 Well,

00:24:54.080 just seeing them

00:24:54.900 is so depressing,

00:24:56.140 isn't it?

00:24:58.140 We had Boris Johnson

00:24:59.520 do a Sunday night

00:25:00.460 address to the nation

00:25:01.700 in which he used

00:25:03.500 the word emergency

00:25:04.360 four times

00:25:05.280 about Omicron.

00:25:06.920 All the while,

00:25:08.860 we have the South Africans

00:25:10.160 where this variant

00:25:12.540 had developed,

00:25:15.360 telling the rest of the world,

00:25:16.960 unlike the Chinese,

00:25:17.780 but telling the rest

00:25:19.080 of the world

00:25:19.660 what was coming our way

00:25:21.080 and explaining

00:25:22.220 that it was much milder

00:25:23.660 than anything

00:25:24.760 that had gone before

00:25:25.740 and in the end

00:25:26.700 would help to build

00:25:27.340 natural immunity

00:25:28.100 and might actually,

00:25:29.540 oddly,

00:25:30.480 on balance,

00:25:31.060 be a good thing.

00:25:32.720 So,

00:25:33.220 mid-December,

00:25:34.400 emergency,

00:25:35.500 lockdowns,

00:25:36.440 catastrophe,

00:25:37.460 the end is nigh.

00:25:39.580 Second week of February

00:25:40.660 and restrictions

00:25:41.900 about to end

00:25:42.820 completely.

00:25:43.840 how did that happen?

00:25:46.300 Well,

00:25:46.400 it happened

00:25:46.880 because we have

00:25:47.860 commentators,

00:25:49.920 press,

00:25:50.320 you know,

00:25:50.560 free press commentators

00:25:51.580 arguing enough's enough.

00:25:53.220 It happened

00:25:54.120 because there was

00:25:54.560 a backbench rebellion.

00:25:56.360 I mean,

00:25:56.940 the same mob,

00:25:58.120 the same mob

00:25:59.640 that fought Theresa May

00:26:00.700 over Brussels

00:26:01.520 and all these things

00:26:03.360 and the good

00:26:05.620 common sense

00:26:06.760 of the British people

00:26:07.440 has come into play

00:26:08.280 and that's put Boris

00:26:09.340 into line.

00:26:11.080 Interesting,

00:26:11.720 isn't it,

00:26:11.960 that the second country

00:26:13.020 to follow this route

00:26:14.400 is Denmark,

00:26:15.840 also a country

00:26:16.600 that hasn't joined

00:26:17.260 the Euro,

00:26:18.120 is deeply Eurosceptic

00:26:19.480 and will no doubt

00:26:20.020 leave the European Union.

00:26:20.580 All roads lead to Berlin

00:26:21.660 with Nassau down there.

00:26:22.900 Well,

00:26:23.440 but you can't deny it,

00:26:24.700 you know.

00:26:25.520 So,

00:26:26.160 so actually,

00:26:27.840 this is a good sign.

00:26:29.460 The fact that we've gone

00:26:30.600 in the space of a few weeks

00:26:31.900 from looking like more lockdowns

00:26:34.080 to where we are

00:26:34.840 is a very,

00:26:35.800 very good sign

00:26:36.440 that actually good common sense

00:26:37.500 in the end

00:26:37.980 does prevail in this country.

00:26:40.240 As for,

00:26:41.200 you know,

00:26:41.960 what is happening

00:26:42.980 in Australia

00:26:43.980 and countries like that,

00:26:45.900 I just,

00:26:46.280 New Zealand,

00:26:47.220 I just can't get a handle on it.

00:26:48.640 But it's not just those two,

00:26:49.620 it's Austria,

00:26:50.340 it's Germany,

00:26:51.120 it's Italy,

00:26:51.820 it's France.

00:26:52.720 Spain.

00:26:53.320 Spain,

00:26:53.760 it's,

00:26:54.520 it's a developed world.

00:26:56.280 Well,

00:26:56.600 thank God we've left

00:26:57.340 the European Union.

00:26:59.120 No,

00:26:59.780 I mean,

00:27:00.100 you know,

00:27:00.260 the vaccine rollout,

00:27:01.220 all these things are actually...

00:27:02.400 That was despicable,

00:27:03.060 their behaviour was despicable

00:27:04.260 with the vaccine rollout.

00:27:05.640 Stunning,

00:27:06.600 you know,

00:27:06.920 stunning.

00:27:07.960 I mean,

00:27:08.520 the way they behaved

00:27:09.560 and,

00:27:09.920 you know,

00:27:10.680 the Guardian telling us

00:27:11.940 that if we left

00:27:12.480 the European Medicines Agency

00:27:13.900 it would prove that Brexit

00:27:14.920 was a death cult,

00:27:15.800 but it's all wrong.

00:27:17.420 Yeah,

00:27:17.680 look,

00:27:17.900 I'm very worried

00:27:18.560 about this growth

00:27:19.180 of huge government,

00:27:20.820 but I see in Canada,

00:27:22.880 as we speak,

00:27:24.300 it's day 13 of a protest.

00:27:25.920 I generally

00:27:26.540 am pretty appalled

00:27:28.980 by mob rule,

00:27:30.700 but I don't see it

00:27:31.860 as mob rule.

00:27:33.280 Everything indicates to me

00:27:35.200 that the truckers

00:27:36.320 and their supporters

00:27:37.160 are behaving peacefully,

00:27:40.260 behaving well,

00:27:42.000 that the attempts

00:27:42.840 by Trudeau and others

00:27:43.940 to smear them

00:27:44.660 as being far-right extremists

00:27:46.640 simply aren't working.

00:27:48.380 And this is a really big stand.

00:27:51.180 And rather like,

00:27:52.220 we've won the battle

00:27:53.360 on the NHS,

00:27:54.640 vaccine mandate,

00:27:55.640 and I've been banging on

00:27:56.740 about this on my show

00:27:57.660 night after night for weeks.

00:27:59.020 What's happening in Canada?

00:28:01.440 I think the pendulum

00:28:02.320 is beginning to turn back,

00:28:04.580 and I think it will start

00:28:05.320 to turn back

00:28:06.120 in other countries.

00:28:08.240 But we've seen

00:28:09.220 the tendency,

00:28:10.000 haven't we,

00:28:10.340 of governments

00:28:10.860 to use any excuse,

00:28:13.140 any crisis

00:28:13.860 to build their power.

00:28:16.340 And so,

00:28:17.220 you know,

00:28:17.560 that's the next big battle,

00:28:18.680 isn't it?

00:28:19.180 This is a battle

00:28:19.880 genuinely for liberty,

00:28:21.180 for freedom,

00:28:21.800 for individual choice.

00:28:23.680 And I am going to stick

00:28:25.240 to my theme

00:28:25.980 of the last 30 years,

00:28:27.880 which is

00:28:28.600 globalist structures.

00:28:31.580 Whether it is

00:28:32.680 the European Union,

00:28:34.840 whether it is

00:28:35.640 the United Nations,

00:28:37.300 whether it is

00:28:38.040 the World Health Organization,

00:28:40.420 will always seek

00:28:41.020 to expand.

00:28:42.220 They seek to expand,

00:28:43.500 well, look at NATO

00:28:44.220 in the Ukraine.

00:28:45.280 They seek to expand

00:28:46.060 geographically.

00:28:46.520 We're going to have

00:28:46.900 a big argument

00:28:47.400 about that.

00:28:48.860 They seek to expand,

00:28:50.660 but they seek to expand

00:28:51.920 their own powers.

00:28:52.860 And actually,

00:28:54.100 the antedate to this

00:28:55.320 are democratically run

00:28:57.040 nation states

00:28:57.720 with directly accountable

00:28:58.540 politicians.

00:28:59.300 I honestly believe

00:29:00.240 this all fits in

00:29:01.120 to the whole theme

00:29:02.220 of my political life.

00:29:03.980 Nigel,

00:29:04.380 do you not feel that

00:29:05.520 with all the lockdowns,

00:29:07.460 the draconian measures

00:29:08.460 that we've seen,

00:29:09.340 what we've actually done

00:29:10.400 is open a Pandora's box.

00:29:11.720 So next time

00:29:12.300 there is a particularly

00:29:13.660 bad flu season,

00:29:14.960 for example,

00:29:16.520 you know,

00:29:16.880 well,

00:29:17.040 we're going to have

00:29:17.440 a few restrictions,

00:29:18.420 otherwise the NHS

00:29:19.120 is going to be overwhelmed

00:29:20.220 if there's a new variant

00:29:21.700 next year,

00:29:22.540 et cetera, et cetera.

00:29:23.700 Yeah, climate lockdowns.

00:29:25.360 Why not?

00:29:26.700 I mean,

00:29:27.100 Sadiq Khan seems to be

00:29:28.160 very keen to drive

00:29:28.900 every car off the roads

00:29:29.920 of London.

00:29:30.940 What if the,

00:29:31.860 you know,

00:29:32.720 particle per million parts

00:29:35.480 of nitrous oxide

00:29:36.880 reaches a certain level

00:29:38.240 in East London

00:29:39.060 and they decide,

00:29:40.200 you know,

00:29:40.460 no more cars for a week?

00:29:41.680 Yeah, no,

00:29:42.420 I do worry

00:29:43.340 I do worry

00:29:44.680 that that precedent's

00:29:45.520 been set,

00:29:46.300 but I do worry

00:29:48.100 about that,

00:29:48.760 but I still think

00:29:49.840 that this victory

00:29:52.420 of common sense

00:29:54.220 that we've achieved

00:29:55.320 over the last couple

00:29:56.060 of months in the UK,

00:29:57.440 I think that'll stand

00:29:58.240 us in quite good stead.

00:29:59.780 I hope it'll stand

00:30:00.740 us in quite good stead.

00:30:02.340 But as for,

00:30:03.280 you know,

00:30:04.620 Austria,

00:30:05.460 Germany,

00:30:06.120 New Zealand,

00:30:08.120 maybe it's gone.

00:30:08.880 It's funny,

00:30:09.320 isn't it?

00:30:10.560 We seem to

00:30:11.300 have a younger generation,

00:30:12.580 not all of them,

00:30:13.600 but a younger generation,

00:30:14.460 many of whom

00:30:14.960 seem to think

00:30:16.620 that values

00:30:17.800 matter more

00:30:20.620 than freedom

00:30:21.640 and liberty.

00:30:23.160 And safety.

00:30:24.800 And safety

00:30:25.820 and the rule of law.

00:30:28.820 I mean,

00:30:30.300 how a jury,

00:30:31.420 how a jury

00:30:32.660 in the trial

00:30:34.120 of the Colston Four

00:30:35.120 could decide

00:30:36.280 that what happened

00:30:36.880 wasn't criminal damage

00:30:37.920 kind of shows you

00:30:39.460 what I'm saying.

00:30:40.640 Yeah.

00:30:41.640 And when you start

00:30:42.960 to believe in these values,

00:30:45.400 and these values

00:30:46.360 become a substitute

00:30:47.160 for religion,

00:30:48.860 you know,

00:30:49.100 whether it's

00:30:49.700 the fight against

00:30:50.840 global warming,

00:30:52.060 the fight against

00:30:53.020 racism,

00:30:54.660 historic wrongs,

00:30:55.840 it's a list

00:30:56.260 as long as your arm,

00:30:57.980 and you start

00:30:59.020 to believe

00:30:59.720 that your view

00:31:01.780 has a

00:31:03.140 moral superiority

00:31:05.260 over people

00:31:07.220 with another view,

00:31:08.680 that's when you

00:31:09.300 start to throw

00:31:09.920 things like liberty,

00:31:11.400 freedom,

00:31:12.420 justice,

00:31:13.100 rule of law

00:31:13.640 out of the window.

00:31:14.760 So these are

00:31:15.160 very big challenges

00:31:16.100 going ahead.

00:31:17.680 And I,

00:31:18.920 I mean,

00:31:21.220 I think longer term,

00:31:22.660 one of the big issues

00:31:23.960 that we're going

00:31:24.300 to have to address

00:31:25.040 if we really

00:31:26.700 do care

00:31:27.300 about the size

00:31:28.800 of a state,

00:31:29.740 about individual

00:31:30.360 freedom,

00:31:31.540 is the way

00:31:32.280 young people

00:31:32.760 are being educated.

00:31:35.020 And I think

00:31:35.840 that is the real

00:31:36.880 cancer in society.

00:31:40.400 I mean,

00:31:40.780 I think that,

00:31:42.860 and it starts

00:31:43.440 at primary school.

00:31:44.820 This isn't just

00:31:45.500 university.

00:31:46.760 This isn't just

00:31:47.220 a few sort of

00:31:47.880 wacky lefty

00:31:48.980 professors.

00:31:49.640 This is actually

00:31:50.400 right through

00:31:51.280 the education system.

00:31:53.380 And we seem

00:31:53.780 to have stopped

00:31:54.500 teaching critical

00:31:56.260 thinking.

00:31:58.000 Stop teaching,

00:31:58.680 stop teaching people

00:31:59.940 that, you know,

00:32:00.800 here's a potential

00:32:01.500 problem,

00:32:02.380 here are two

00:32:02.920 approaches to it,

00:32:04.100 they're both valid,

00:32:05.740 and you make your

00:32:06.440 mind up which of

00:32:07.240 these you think

00:32:07.980 is the right way

00:32:08.940 to deal with

00:32:09.440 society.

00:32:10.960 And that's kind

00:32:11.720 of been replaced

00:32:12.300 by, well,

00:32:12.840 this one's,

00:32:13.760 you know,

00:32:14.960 good and moral

00:32:16.500 and this one's evil.

00:32:18.060 So,

00:32:19.180 that does pose,

00:32:22.040 you know,

00:32:23.000 a big,

00:32:23.580 a big problem.

00:32:24.500 problem in the

00:32:25.500 years to come.

00:32:26.360 But I'm still,

00:32:27.040 I'm still confident.

00:32:29.980 I'm still bullish.

00:32:31.260 I still,

00:32:31.940 I still think

00:32:33.180 common sense is

00:32:33.960 there.

00:32:34.460 I still think

00:32:34.920 there is a,

00:32:35.940 when push comes

00:32:36.520 to shove,

00:32:37.320 a silent majority

00:32:38.300 who are for good

00:32:39.500 things and sensible

00:32:40.300 things.

00:32:40.840 I still think we

00:32:41.640 have,

00:32:42.620 particularly with

00:32:43.020 Brexit,

00:32:43.880 an important

00:32:44.520 leadership role

00:32:45.380 that we can be

00:32:46.600 an example to

00:32:47.800 others in the

00:32:48.300 world.

00:32:48.900 So,

00:32:49.520 yeah,

00:32:49.880 I can't help it.

00:32:50.960 I still come out

00:32:51.740 as the eternal

00:32:52.220 optimist.

00:32:54.340 Hey,

00:32:54.920 Constantine,

00:32:55.780 do you love

00:32:56.480 Trigonometry?

00:32:57.320 Of course.

00:32:58.180 Incredible interviews,

00:32:59.680 hilarious live streams,

00:33:01.240 hard-hitting satire,

00:33:02.760 plus my handsome

00:33:03.880 jawline.

00:33:04.520 Whatever takes away

00:33:05.420 from your hairline.

00:33:06.540 But if you do love

00:33:07.480 Trigonometry and you

00:33:08.660 want to support us,

00:33:09.840 there's only one place

00:33:11.120 to do that,

00:33:12.060 and that's on

00:33:12.840 Locals.

00:33:13.420 Yes,

00:33:13.960 Locals is a

00:33:14.820 brilliant platform

00:33:15.600 that has been

00:33:16.300 incredibly supportive

00:33:17.360 to our show

00:33:18.260 and other

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00:33:20.900 The great thing

00:33:21.520 about Locals is

00:33:22.480 that it's a

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00:33:23.760 people who

00:33:24.540 love Trigonometry.

00:33:25.700 That's right,

00:33:26.180 it's a place for

00:33:26.800 you to hang out

00:33:27.480 with like-minded

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00:33:52.380 the pinned

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00:33:53.540 See you there,

00:33:54.260 guys.

00:33:55.780 We're talking

00:33:56.520 about optimism,

00:33:57.500 but to me,

00:33:58.380 it seems we're

00:33:59.400 in for quite a

00:34:00.480 bleak year in

00:34:01.440 terms of

00:34:01.840 economics,

00:34:02.380 in terms of

00:34:02.840 inflation.

00:34:03.860 If you look at

00:34:04.820 the challenges

00:34:05.400 the ordinary

00:34:06.180 person is facing

00:34:07.280 when it comes to

00:34:07.880 heating bills,

00:34:09.840 I mean,

00:34:10.100 that's a real

00:34:11.280 worry,

00:34:11.840 isn't it?

00:34:12.580 Let's deal

00:34:12.960 with those

00:34:13.200 separately.

00:34:15.060 Inflation,

00:34:15.540 a disease

00:34:17.160 of money

00:34:17.680 caused by

00:34:19.120 government.

00:34:20.440 All right?

00:34:20.720 Now, you

00:34:20.980 get inflationary

00:34:21.740 shocks,

00:34:22.300 you get

00:34:22.560 commodity price

00:34:23.280 rises or

00:34:24.160 whatever,

00:34:25.120 but you also

00:34:25.620 get monetary

00:34:26.120 inflation.

00:34:26.900 Monetary

00:34:27.220 inflation is

00:34:27.800 caused by

00:34:28.580 governments.

00:34:29.600 It's a miracle

00:34:30.240 to many of

00:34:30.860 us that

00:34:31.680 inflation didn't

00:34:32.340 kick in

00:34:32.660 earlier,

00:34:33.560 because we've

00:34:34.000 seen since

00:34:34.440 2008 all

00:34:36.040 sorts of

00:34:36.420 astonishing

00:34:37.000 money creation

00:34:38.280 measures,

00:34:39.200 entire

00:34:41.000 economies,

00:34:41.700 frankly,

00:34:42.060 propped up

00:34:42.500 by massive

00:34:43.160 government

00:34:43.520 borrowing and

00:34:44.080 spending and

00:34:45.160 increasing in

00:34:45.840 debt.

00:34:47.040 So I'm not in

00:34:47.920 the least bit

00:34:48.520 surprised inflation

00:34:49.400 has come back,

00:34:50.080 and it's one of

00:34:50.540 the things,

00:34:51.680 you know,

00:34:51.960 with my newsletter,

00:34:52.700 we've been

00:34:52.960 calling this out

00:34:53.500 every day for a

00:34:54.300 year.

00:34:55.320 And fascinating,

00:34:56.860 if you go back

00:34:57.200 to this time last

00:34:58.000 year,

00:34:58.980 the sheer

00:34:59.400 complacency of

00:35:00.360 central banks,

00:35:01.940 the complacency

00:35:02.640 of politicians.

00:35:03.540 Boris in

00:35:03.980 October was

00:35:05.800 telling the

00:35:06.140 House of Commons

00:35:06.700 inflation is not

00:35:07.740 a problem.

00:35:08.420 Ha!

00:35:09.200 But it's not

00:35:11.280 just him,

00:35:11.860 they've all

00:35:12.300 had it wrong.

00:35:12.780 I know.

00:35:13.420 They've all

00:35:14.140 had it wrong.

00:35:15.280 Just as none

00:35:16.200 of them saw

00:35:16.740 the crash

00:35:17.160 coming in

00:35:17.680 2008,

00:35:18.940 none of

00:35:19.500 them have

00:35:20.880 seen inflation

00:35:21.520 coming.

00:35:22.640 And I'm

00:35:23.360 pleased to say

00:35:23.880 that, you

00:35:24.220 know,

00:35:24.380 I've been

00:35:24.740 there with

00:35:25.660 my team

00:35:26.100 calling this,

00:35:26.880 predicting this

00:35:27.380 all the way

00:35:27.800 through.

00:35:27.940 We've been

00:35:28.200 talking about

00:35:28.660 it for

00:35:28.880 years,

00:35:29.240 Nigel.

00:35:29.460 We've had

00:35:29.900 people right

00:35:30.440 at the

00:35:30.660 beginning

00:35:30.860 of lockdown

00:35:31.300 saying,

00:35:32.200 well,

00:35:32.320 maybe we

00:35:32.640 should think

00:35:33.080 about how

00:35:33.640 much this is

00:35:34.260 going to

00:35:34.520 cost and how

00:35:35.400 we're going

00:35:35.660 to pay for

00:35:36.260 it.

00:35:36.560 And no one's

00:35:39.200 but there's

00:35:39.520 a secret

00:35:39.840 truth here,

00:35:40.360 isn't there?

00:35:42.040 Inflation

00:35:42.480 suits governments.

00:35:44.500 Governments

00:35:44.940 that have

00:35:45.180 built up

00:35:45.540 massive debts,

00:35:46.940 inflation

00:35:47.380 devalues the

00:35:48.180 size of

00:35:48.580 those debts.

00:35:50.700 I'm not

00:35:51.240 being a

00:35:51.520 conspiracy

00:35:51.840 theorist,

00:35:52.540 but it

00:35:52.720 almost is

00:35:53.140 a way

00:35:53.420 out.

00:35:54.200 And then

00:35:54.520 central banks

00:35:55.900 can't put

00:35:56.880 interest rates

00:35:57.540 up enough

00:35:58.260 to dampen

00:35:59.440 down inflation

00:36:00.280 because we're

00:36:01.000 so bloomin'

00:36:01.500 indebted at

00:36:02.040 every level,

00:36:03.040 whether it's

00:36:03.600 national debt,

00:36:04.260 corporate debt,

00:36:04.880 personal debt,

00:36:05.800 that if you

00:36:06.180 put up rates

00:36:06.740 too much too

00:36:07.320 quickly,

00:36:07.620 the whole thing

00:36:08.040 falls to pieces.

00:36:09.200 So I do

00:36:09.760 think actually

00:36:10.220 inflation offers

00:36:10.780 governments a

00:36:11.320 way of getting

00:36:12.160 themselves out

00:36:12.980 of debt.

00:36:13.860 And the people

00:36:14.500 that pay the

00:36:14.920 price in

00:36:15.760 inflation are

00:36:16.480 ordinary decent

00:36:17.320 folk who see

00:36:18.120 what they work

00:36:18.760 for and save

00:36:19.840 for disappearing.

00:36:21.240 So you're now

00:36:22.660 being told by the

00:36:23.380 experts,

00:36:24.060 don't worry,

00:36:24.680 you're poor

00:36:25.040 little heads.

00:36:26.220 It will hit

00:36:27.000 7.25% in the

00:36:28.600 UK, the inflation

00:36:29.500 rate in April,

00:36:30.580 but it'll fall

00:36:31.300 away by the end

00:36:31.900 of the year.

00:36:32.220 Well, I'm not

00:36:32.580 so sure.

00:36:33.000 on the fuel

00:36:36.580 bill side of

00:36:38.860 things, which

00:36:39.440 is just, I

00:36:40.740 still don't

00:36:41.380 think people

00:36:41.820 understand what's

00:36:42.500 about to happen.

00:36:43.980 I really don't

00:36:44.900 think they

00:36:45.240 understand the

00:36:45.800 first week of

00:36:46.240 April when

00:36:47.180 those bills

00:36:47.660 hit the

00:36:48.040 mat for

00:36:49.500 their Q1

00:36:50.180 gas and

00:36:51.960 electricity bills.

00:36:52.900 There's going to

00:36:53.240 be absolute

00:36:53.820 shock and

00:36:54.340 outrage.

00:36:55.240 Number one,

00:36:56.340 massive mistake,

00:36:57.200 the Conservatives

00:36:57.800 adopted price

00:36:58.660 caps.

00:36:58.940 Can you

00:36:59.740 believe it?

00:37:01.280 Can you

00:37:01.860 believe that a

00:37:03.240 Conservative

00:37:03.660 government,

00:37:04.560 I mean, why

00:37:05.060 not set a

00:37:05.480 price for a

00:37:05.860 loaf of

00:37:06.100 bread?

00:37:07.140 I miss what

00:37:07.460 the Marxists

00:37:08.000 did.

00:37:10.040 Nuts policy.

00:37:11.380 It never

00:37:11.980 works.

00:37:12.860 It's nearly

00:37:13.320 always

00:37:13.640 counterproductive.

00:37:16.220 But it leads

00:37:17.020 to a much

00:37:17.380 bigger question.

00:37:19.820 Net zero

00:37:20.380 is, in

00:37:21.920 economic terms,

00:37:23.720 I think the

00:37:24.400 most self-destructive

00:37:25.300 policy that has

00:37:26.460 ever been put

00:37:27.220 forward by a

00:37:28.420 British government

00:37:28.940 in the history

00:37:29.840 of the nation.

00:37:31.240 That doesn't

00:37:32.040 mean that I'm

00:37:33.500 against finding

00:37:34.620 ways of

00:37:35.580 producing energy

00:37:36.940 that emit less

00:37:38.840 CO2 and cause

00:37:40.020 less environmental

00:37:40.740 damage, but I'm a

00:37:42.060 pragmatist.

00:37:43.120 You know, we

00:37:43.460 still burn four

00:37:44.960 and a half million

00:37:45.480 tons of coal a

00:37:46.220 year in this

00:37:46.660 country.

00:37:47.060 We have to to

00:37:47.580 make steel.

00:37:48.720 Do you know

00:37:48.980 what?

00:37:49.180 We import it

00:37:49.740 all.

00:37:50.580 We're importing

00:37:51.480 50% of our

00:37:53.220 natural gas when

00:37:55.140 we've got vast

00:37:56.120 reserves, possibly as

00:37:57.920 much as a

00:37:58.360 trillion pounds

00:38:00.340 worth of

00:38:00.780 natural gas in

00:38:01.520 Lancashire and

00:38:02.060 Cumbria alone.

00:38:03.380 Hey, that's

00:38:04.020 half the national

00:38:04.600 debt.

00:38:05.440 It's quite

00:38:05.960 interesting when

00:38:06.480 you look at

00:38:06.740 somebody's numbers.

00:38:07.260 And a lot of

00:38:07.440 jobs, too.

00:38:08.440 Tens of

00:38:09.040 thousands of

00:38:09.660 well-paid jobs.

00:38:11.040 And if you're

00:38:11.380 going to use the

00:38:12.640 blooming stuff

00:38:13.120 anyway, you

00:38:14.480 might as well

00:38:14.820 make it here.

00:38:16.020 The Americans

00:38:16.660 rethought their

00:38:19.060 energy policy five,

00:38:21.000 six years ago.

00:38:23.080 And the price of

00:38:24.040 natural gas in

00:38:24.720 America is half

00:38:25.720 the price that it

00:38:26.520 is here.

00:38:28.020 We then have

00:38:29.380 walked onto

00:38:30.020 people's bills.

00:38:33.200 Incredibly, 25% of

00:38:36.140 your electricity

00:38:36.700 bill is green

00:38:37.220 subsidies.

00:38:38.100 Money that goes

00:38:38.960 to rich landowners.

00:38:40.340 Money that goes to

00:38:41.000 large foreign

00:38:42.000 companies building

00:38:43.260 wind farms.

00:38:44.480 We've put so much

00:38:45.600 faith in wind

00:38:46.280 energy, or if

00:38:47.380 truth be told, so

00:38:48.660 much money has been

00:38:49.340 made out of wind

00:38:50.740 energy by those in

00:38:52.340 the elites that we

00:38:53.660 leave ourselves

00:38:54.120 vulnerable at some

00:38:55.600 point of a not-too-distant

00:38:56.400 future to blackouts.

00:38:58.580 So, yes, commodity

00:39:00.160 prices globally have

00:39:01.600 gone up, but we've

00:39:02.820 left ourselves

00:39:03.540 absolutely exposed,

00:39:05.180 not just to world

00:39:06.160 markets, but left

00:39:07.520 ourselves exposed.

00:39:09.540 You know, 9% of our

00:39:10.860 electricity comes from

00:39:12.980 France through an

00:39:14.160 interconnector.

00:39:15.460 You know, so I think

00:39:16.280 we should be self-sufficient

00:39:17.340 in energy.

00:39:18.140 We should be aiming

00:39:19.080 with areas like gas to

00:39:21.620 get people's bills

00:39:22.380 down.

00:39:22.780 I don't think a penny

00:39:23.920 piece should go to

00:39:26.980 massive global

00:39:28.380 industries in the

00:39:29.620 form of green

00:39:30.100 subsidy.

00:39:31.220 So I think this, I've

00:39:33.600 got a feeling,

00:39:34.220 actually, that the

00:39:35.260 energy debate and the

00:39:36.880 net zero debate is

00:39:38.580 going to be huge.

00:39:39.660 And Boris stands up

00:39:40.660 and says, isn't it

00:39:41.280 marvellous?

00:39:42.140 We've cut our CO2

00:39:43.480 output by 44% since

00:39:44.920 1990.

00:39:46.040 Well, if you close

00:39:46.740 down nearly all of

00:39:48.440 your chemical plants,

00:39:49.840 your aluminium

00:39:50.400 smelters, your

00:39:51.540 refiners, and you

00:39:53.160 move steel plants

00:39:54.520 from Red Card to

00:39:55.200 India, and then

00:39:57.000 import the products

00:39:58.400 back, you yourself

00:40:00.360 may be producing

00:40:01.860 less CO2, but

00:40:03.020 globally, the net

00:40:05.500 game is even more

00:40:06.540 CO2 is being

00:40:07.420 produced.

00:40:08.020 So I think we've

00:40:08.980 got this hopelessly,

00:40:11.020 catastrophically wrong.

00:40:12.840 And I think it's a

00:40:14.680 function of, and by

00:40:17.400 the way, Labour are

00:40:18.120 just as bad on this,

00:40:19.140 if not worse.

00:40:20.620 And I think it's a

00:40:21.300 function of career

00:40:22.460 politicians, a

00:40:23.740 function of people

00:40:24.660 living inside

00:40:25.680 metropolitan bubbles

00:40:26.600 in London, prey to

00:40:29.120 the lobbying influences

00:40:30.940 of some people who are

00:40:32.440 rather good at this,

00:40:34.600 and utterly disconnected

00:40:36.520 from the real world.

00:40:37.980 And it's about to blow

00:40:38.680 up this year.

00:40:39.660 It's about to blow up.

00:40:40.480 Nigel, there is a

00:40:43.180 left-wing argument,

00:40:44.080 which actually I have

00:40:45.000 quite a lot of sympathy

00:40:45.820 for, was saying,

00:40:46.720 isn't Thatcher partly

00:40:48.260 responsible for this,

00:40:49.720 for privatising our

00:40:51.340 energy companies?

00:40:52.560 And actually, if the

00:40:54.340 government was in charge

00:40:55.280 of this, we wouldn't

00:40:56.320 be, I mean, they'd make

00:40:58.020 a mess because they

00:40:58.580 always do, but we

00:40:59.820 wouldn't be in this

00:41:00.700 mess.

00:41:01.440 Privatisation works where

00:41:02.700 you can create

00:41:03.180 competition.

00:41:04.380 I was always sceptical

00:41:05.700 about privatising the

00:41:06.600 railways.

00:41:07.460 It seemed to be, you

00:41:08.280 know, how could you

00:41:10.300 provide a proper

00:41:10.960 competitive network

00:41:11.920 within that?

00:41:13.240 With energy, it's

00:41:13.980 different, actually,

00:41:15.080 because different

00:41:16.040 energy suppliers can

00:41:17.280 supply to your home

00:41:18.560 and you can go out

00:41:20.100 and game the market

00:41:20.980 and swap and change.

00:41:22.240 So, no, I don't have

00:41:23.900 a problem at all

00:41:24.640 with that.

00:41:26.100 But what I have a

00:41:26.720 massive problem with

00:41:27.820 is green subsidy,

00:41:29.600 which is put on by

00:41:30.300 government, not by

00:41:32.040 energy providers.

00:41:33.760 Smart meters, which,

00:41:36.020 again, is a

00:41:37.380 government directive

00:41:38.220 to energy companies,

00:41:40.440 which will lead to,

00:41:41.980 you know, peak flow

00:41:43.800 pricing and goodness

00:41:44.860 knows what else.

00:41:46.740 So, and what I have a

00:41:48.060 massive problem with is

00:41:49.480 the very concept of

00:41:50.260 price caps, which, of

00:41:51.460 course, has actually

00:41:51.840 bankrupted, as it

00:41:53.140 turned out, many of the

00:41:54.700 smaller providers.

00:41:55.980 So, no, look, there are

00:41:57.800 limits to privatisation.

00:42:00.960 There are limits to it.

00:42:02.240 But where you can create

00:42:03.340 genuine competition,

00:42:04.500 that is better than it

00:42:05.380 being state-run.

00:42:06.500 And, Nigel, you bring up

00:42:07.740 energy security.

00:42:09.300 And so, I'm going to

00:42:10.380 butter you up a little

00:42:11.180 bit before we get into

00:42:12.200 a big disagreement about

00:42:13.560 NATO and Ukraine and

00:42:14.880 all that, because I do

00:42:15.580 want to talk about

00:42:16.180 geopolitics a little bit.

00:42:17.940 But I think this actually

00:42:19.180 plays into your motif more

00:42:20.880 than anything else, which

00:42:21.980 is globalisation.

00:42:24.280 It's the idea, oh, yeah,

00:42:25.480 we can buy our

00:42:26.320 electricity from this, and

00:42:27.780 we can buy our steel from

00:42:28.840 that, and we can buy it.

00:42:30.000 And before you know it,

00:42:31.000 Germany's importing its

00:42:32.240 gas from Russia, and even

00:42:34.160 if the West wanted to do

00:42:35.620 something there, I mean,

00:42:37.220 you're being held hostage.

00:42:37.960 Yeah, the just-in-time

00:42:40.180 supply chain.

00:42:41.540 Don't vote Brexit, or

00:42:43.660 you'll destroy the just-in-time

00:42:45.620 supply chain.

00:42:46.540 Well, the just-in-time

00:42:47.280 supply chain suits giant

00:42:49.160 multinational global

00:42:50.820 corporations, but does

00:42:52.360 away with any concept of

00:42:54.240 nation, does away with any

00:42:56.220 concept of a common good

00:42:57.660 for a collective group of

00:42:59.720 people in that nation.

00:43:01.220 And this has been very much

00:43:02.060 exposed.

00:43:03.500 The German thing's

00:43:04.780 incredible.

00:43:05.880 I mean, utterly incredible.

00:43:06.940 There they were, saying

00:43:09.140 Brexit was funded by the

00:43:10.680 Russians, Trump, you know,

00:43:12.820 is in Putin's pocket.

00:43:14.280 It was Germany all the time.

00:43:16.460 I mean, they've made

00:43:16.940 themselves wholly

00:43:18.160 dependent, and that, of

00:43:20.420 course, means that our

00:43:21.160 threat of sanctions against

00:43:22.960 Putin are completely and

00:43:25.560 utterly hollow and

00:43:26.860 meaningless, because he can

00:43:28.520 hurt the West far more than

00:43:29.540 we can hurt him.

00:43:30.280 So let's talk about

00:43:32.100 geopolitics.

00:43:32.880 Now, look, I've just

00:43:33.480 written a book called An

00:43:34.260 Immigrant's Love Letter to the

00:43:35.340 West, and it's mainly about

00:43:36.500 why I think what we have is

00:43:38.000 actually pretty good, and we

00:43:38.940 should stop beating

00:43:39.440 ourselves up about it.

00:43:40.400 But part of my argument is

00:43:41.780 also is the more we focus

00:43:43.600 internally, the more time we

00:43:45.200 spend talking about, you

00:43:47.000 know, this comedian made this

00:43:48.300 joke, and now we're all very

00:43:49.440 upset for three days and

00:43:50.480 whatever, the more we take

00:43:52.180 eye off the ball, and that's

00:43:53.300 why China is expanding into

00:43:54.840 the South China Sea, it's

00:43:56.480 getting bullish on Taiwan, you

00:43:58.140 see what's happened in

00:43:58.980 Hong Kong, and Russia

00:44:00.300 likewise, you know.

00:44:02.240 Do you think the West

00:44:05.120 needs to rediscover its kind

00:44:07.080 of ability to project power

00:44:08.720 around the world?

00:44:09.300 Because you seem concerned

00:44:10.240 that NATO is expanding

00:44:11.240 eastwards and all of that.

00:44:12.020 Oh, look, look, I think

00:44:13.380 we've made some massive

00:44:14.380 geopolitical mistakes since

00:44:16.360 1990.

00:44:17.620 You know, the Berlin Wall

00:44:18.680 had come down, and we

00:44:20.500 decided that NATO and the

00:44:22.300 European Union would expand

00:44:24.020 ever eastwards.

00:44:25.620 You know, empires that are

00:44:26.820 struggling for a role,

00:44:28.140 continue expanding.

00:44:29.560 It's a good way to even go.

00:44:31.680 I know you just go into

00:44:32.740 answer, and I never

00:44:33.500 interrupt guests generally,

00:44:34.820 but let me just put a small

00:44:35.980 counter-argument.

00:44:36.940 The reason NATO is

00:44:37.720 expanding eastwards is

00:44:38.660 because Estonia, Lithuania,

00:44:40.640 Latvia, and Ukraine feel

00:44:42.100 terrified, rightly so, because

00:44:43.520 only 70 years ago the

00:44:44.660 Soviets invaded, massacred

00:44:45.860 their elites, took over their

00:44:47.200 country.

00:44:47.820 They don't want that to

00:44:48.500 happen again.

00:44:49.020 It's not some bureaucrat in

00:44:50.480 Brussels that's making that

00:44:51.540 happen.

00:44:52.060 It's those countries fearing for

00:44:53.580 their survival.

00:44:54.020 Just because they want to

00:44:55.300 join doesn't mean it's a

00:44:57.520 clever geopolitical move for

00:44:59.500 us to say yes to that.

00:45:00.180 I'm saying the motivation

00:45:01.060 for expansion is not...

00:45:02.180 Look, if I was Polish, I

00:45:05.560 would have wanted to join

00:45:06.500 NATO.

00:45:07.300 If I was Polish, I'd have

00:45:09.280 crossed my fingers and voted

00:45:11.080 to join the European Union,

00:45:12.400 probably.

00:45:13.120 I get that.

00:45:14.800 But let's just think, let's

00:45:16.060 just go back a bit further,

00:45:18.000 you know, go back over the

00:45:19.440 last couple of hundred years

00:45:20.440 of the, you know, formal

00:45:22.540 existence of nation states

00:45:25.220 around the world.

00:45:26.260 The concept of a buffer zone

00:45:28.040 is actually quite an

00:45:29.640 intelligent concept, okay?

00:45:33.900 In the case of NATO, this

00:45:36.620 ever eastwards expansion is,

00:45:40.260 has been a deliberately

00:45:41.840 provocative move against a

00:45:44.180 Russia which has always been

00:45:45.480 paranoid.

00:45:46.900 You know, the Cold War, Russia

00:45:48.880 was far more scared of us

00:45:50.220 than we were of Russia.

00:45:52.540 And sometimes, I mean, if

00:45:54.500 you want to resolve a

00:45:55.360 conflict, right, sometimes

00:45:57.300 what you have to do is to

00:45:59.080 put yourself in the mind of

00:45:59.980 the other person.

00:46:01.320 It's rather like solving that

00:46:02.140 crossword puzzle.

00:46:03.080 You've got to think, you

00:46:04.060 know, whoever wrote this,

00:46:05.080 what were they hinting at?

00:46:07.860 So we know Russia's

00:46:08.880 paranoid.

00:46:09.840 We know that the old

00:46:11.760 traditional, you know,

00:46:13.240 encirclement idea, invasion

00:46:15.120 idea of Russia is something

00:46:16.260 that motivates them very

00:46:17.180 deeply.

00:46:17.540 By the way, I don't doubt

00:46:19.060 for a moment that Putin does

00:46:20.800 have expansionist tendencies.

00:46:23.460 However, here we are as we

00:46:24.980 sit here today with 130,000

00:46:27.560 Russian troops massed on the

00:46:29.820 border.

00:46:31.000 He's making one key demand,

00:46:33.100 which is that we say that the

00:46:35.680 Ukraine will not join NATO,

00:46:37.280 okay?

00:46:38.320 We have Antony Blink in the

00:46:39.740 US Secretary of State, Boris

00:46:40.940 Johnson, some woman called

00:46:42.660 Liz Truss who's become

00:46:43.680 Foreign Secretary, God

00:46:44.860 knows how, but anyway, there we

00:46:46.100 are, and they're all saying,

00:46:48.120 no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:46:49.320 If the Ukraine wants to join

00:46:50.440 NATO, they can.

00:46:51.980 I suggest right now we say

00:46:53.600 Ukraine will not be joining

00:46:55.440 NATO.

00:46:56.460 We do understand the

00:46:58.440 concerns in Moscow about

00:47:00.580 Ever-Eastwood expansion.

00:47:02.100 It has come to an end, and we

00:47:03.740 now ask President Putin to

00:47:05.480 stand his troops down on that

00:47:07.240 border.

00:47:07.560 We remove from him his

00:47:11.260 causus belli.

00:47:12.280 We take away from him any

00:47:14.200 possible reason that he could

00:47:16.400 have to mount an invasion, and

00:47:19.520 we remember that by not doing

00:47:20.920 this earlier, we've driven

00:47:23.220 Putin into the arms of the

00:47:26.240 communist Chinese government.

00:47:28.380 How blooming stupid can we

00:47:30.760 possibly be?

00:47:31.440 There is no advantage or

00:47:34.900 interest to us in Ukraine

00:47:36.580 joining NATO.

00:47:38.060 If we make this concession at

00:47:40.240 this stage in the aim of

00:47:42.780 bringing peace, do you know

00:47:44.420 something?

00:47:45.100 It might just work.

00:47:46.620 Nigel, what would you say a few

00:47:49.880 years down the line when Russia

00:47:52.000 takes the rest of Ukraine, which

00:47:53.980 it will do?

00:47:54.620 Well, if you want us to go to the

00:47:55.960 Third World War, if you want them

00:47:57.760 to join NATO and send British

00:47:59.140 troops there, that's fine.

00:48:00.020 I mean, look, look, look, I

00:48:01.900 am not saying, absolutely, I

00:48:07.260 have a cast-iron guarantee that

00:48:10.120 I can stop the outbreak of war

00:48:12.520 in the Ukraine.

00:48:13.320 What I can say, I've got a much

00:48:14.740 brighter idea than anybody else

00:48:16.400 who was sticking to the same

00:48:17.740 formula they've had for 30

00:48:19.340 years, which I believe to be a

00:48:20.820 geopolitical mistake.

00:48:21.940 And one of the reasons I say

00:48:23.240 this is in 2014, we had the

00:48:25.380 Orange Revolution in Kiev.

00:48:28.120 Do you remember all the people in

00:48:29.200 the square who were part of that

00:48:31.340 coup that brought down a

00:48:33.540 democratically elected leader of

00:48:35.780 the Ukraine?

00:48:36.520 Yeah, that's where you're

00:48:37.460 starting to lose me.

00:48:37.940 Maybe a corrupt country.

00:48:39.080 Yeah.

00:48:40.420 He may have been a corrupt guy,

00:48:42.080 but he was a democratically

00:48:43.080 elected leader brought down by

00:48:44.960 people in the squares in Kiev

00:48:46.300 waving European Union flags

00:48:48.880 because the European Union had

00:48:51.120 pumped in pre-accession aid and

00:48:54.980 it was the stated aim that they

00:48:56.440 wanted Ukraine to join the European

00:48:58.320 Union.

00:48:59.120 Far from being an organisation that

00:49:00.680 guarantees peace in Europe, I

00:49:02.340 think where we are today was

00:49:03.440 provoked in large part actually by

00:49:06.000 Brussels and its expansionist

00:49:07.920 tendencies.

00:49:08.720 We've made some big mistakes here.

00:49:10.120 And I made those arguments back in

00:49:12.120 2014 to be condemned by everybody

00:49:16.420 that somehow I was Putin's puppet.

00:49:18.460 I'm not.

00:49:18.940 But I just think sometimes that

00:49:21.120 concept of buffer states is

00:49:23.940 actually a brighter thing to do

00:49:25.500 than a line that we've been

00:49:27.240 pursuing.

00:49:27.660 Here's where I think there's a

00:49:28.440 flaw in your argument, with all

00:49:30.160 possible respect, of course.

00:49:31.160 I'm sure there is one.

00:49:33.760 I think the flaw in your argument

00:49:35.260 is if what we need is a buffer

00:49:37.160 zone, and if Russia is so

00:49:39.560 desperate to have a buffer between

00:49:40.960 itself and NATO, why is Russia

00:49:42.280 expanding westwards?

00:49:43.240 Because he sees an historic coming

00:49:48.420 together of the Russian peoples and

00:49:49.860 all the rest of it.

00:49:50.520 And we have to make it clear to

00:49:52.000 him.

00:49:52.380 There's some historical parallels

00:49:54.020 there.

00:49:54.460 Well, let's take away from him any

00:49:56.120 possible excuse he can have, any

00:49:57.840 validation he can have.

00:49:59.420 Firstly, with his own population,

00:50:01.840 you know, and secondly, with all the

00:50:03.740 rest of us.

00:50:04.840 I think it's the right thing.

00:50:06.180 So what would you like to do?

00:50:08.420 So Ukraine joins NATO.

00:50:09.680 That's your wish list.

00:50:11.120 No, I'm not necessarily saying

00:50:13.240 suggesting that Ukraine should

00:50:14.460 join NATO.

00:50:15.580 I think what I see in the broader

00:50:18.120 geopolitical, that's why I brought

00:50:19.240 China into this.

00:50:20.300 The West is weak, and it's showing

00:50:22.200 weakness.

00:50:22.780 Well, we saw that in Kabul last

00:50:24.320 year, didn't we?

00:50:24.840 Right.

00:50:26.120 And the people who, and you'll

00:50:27.660 understand this because you

00:50:28.660 understand how the real world

00:50:29.660 works.

00:50:29.940 You know, in the West we talk

00:50:31.100 about, you know, equality and

00:50:32.620 diversity and political, whatever.

00:50:35.500 In the real world, people don't

00:50:36.900 operate on that basis.

00:50:37.820 They operate on land, money,

00:50:40.640 finance, weapons, technology,

00:50:43.480 spy, espionage, right?

00:50:44.700 Oil, water, all these things.

00:50:46.960 Coinness.

00:50:48.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:50:49.240 Yeah.

00:50:49.540 Human rights.

00:50:50.740 So what this looks like from the

00:50:53.360 outside to me, as I look at it from

00:50:55.540 a non-Western perspective, is the

00:50:57.600 West is distracted, the West is

00:50:59.700 weak, and all the things that we

00:51:02.060 would always would have quite liked

00:51:03.220 to have done, right?

00:51:04.340 If we, you know, if you're China,

00:51:05.680 well, yeah, you want to expand this

00:51:07.000 way and you want to take over Hong

00:51:08.120 Kong and you want to do this.

00:51:09.320 So from my perspective, it

00:51:11.400 depends on what people in the

00:51:12.460 West want.

00:51:12.960 If you want the managed decline of

00:51:14.940 the West, this is what you're

00:51:16.120 going to get.

00:51:16.420 I have a feeling if Donald Trump

00:51:17.800 was in the White House, we

00:51:18.800 wouldn't see a little rocket man

00:51:19.900 firing off all these rockets.

00:51:21.460 I don't think China would be

00:51:22.500 quite as bellicose about Taiwan as

00:51:24.580 they are.

00:51:24.720 But that's my point.

00:51:25.480 And I, no, no.

00:51:26.180 I mean, look, you know, Biden

00:51:27.760 has been a catastrophe.

00:51:30.720 The unilateral withdrawal from

00:51:32.360 Afghanistan was a complete

00:51:33.740 disaster.

00:51:34.860 Right.

00:51:35.040 And far from America is back,

00:51:37.880 they've actually retreated away.

00:51:39.500 Clearly.

00:51:40.020 And the West is now without

00:51:41.360 leadership.

00:51:41.920 But that's my point, Nigel.

00:51:43.160 By advocating for the position

00:51:44.960 you're advocating for, that's

00:51:46.980 part of the same sort of, well,

00:51:48.540 we just need to, you know, appease

00:51:50.180 these people.

00:51:50.920 And instead of the West coming

00:51:52.160 out and going, look, we are the

00:51:54.220 world superpower.

00:51:55.640 We are.

00:51:56.060 We're not embarrassed about our

00:51:57.540 values.

00:51:57.960 Our values are better than yours.

00:51:59.520 Right.

00:51:59.940 Freedom, democracy.

00:52:00.880 These are all good things.

00:52:01.940 And we are going to spread them

00:52:03.600 around the world because this is

00:52:04.720 who we are.

00:52:05.380 And we are the strongest thing.

00:52:07.180 If you think China and Russia,

00:52:09.040 if they were the dominant

00:52:09.940 hegemony in the world, they

00:52:11.180 wouldn't do that.

00:52:12.060 You're insane.

00:52:12.760 No, I know.

00:52:13.480 I just see that being seen to

00:52:16.660 make something of a concession

00:52:17.800 right now, gaining the moral

00:52:20.960 upper ground in this whole

00:52:23.480 diplomatic standoff that is

00:52:25.260 currently going on over the

00:52:27.000 Ukraine, when, as I say, it's

00:52:28.340 not in our interest for them to

00:52:30.840 join anyway.

00:52:31.680 If he still goes to war, he

00:52:33.260 still goes to war.

00:52:34.720 We'd then be much more united

00:52:35.960 against him because we would

00:52:37.360 have been seen to have done the

00:52:38.440 right thing.

00:52:39.180 As it is, we're carrying on with

00:52:40.940 a policy that's a mistake.

00:52:43.460 Nigel, and we touched on

00:52:45.380 Biden.

00:52:46.240 We touched on Trump.

00:52:47.140 So let's just move and turn our

00:52:48.820 eye to the United States.

00:52:50.860 Why do you think Biden has been a

00:52:53.060 disaster, number one?

00:52:54.900 And number two, do you think we're

00:52:56.700 going to see a comeback for Trump?

00:52:58.480 So Biden wasn't fit to do the job

00:53:00.580 anyway.

00:53:01.140 And the Democrats are in a real

00:53:03.220 mess as a party.

00:53:04.160 Why do you say that?

00:53:05.060 Because this is somebody who's had

00:53:06.240 a very long, very distinguished

00:53:07.360 political career.

00:53:08.020 No, he's had a very long career.

00:53:10.500 He's not had a distinguished

00:53:11.960 career.

00:53:12.980 I mean, nobody in Washington would

00:53:14.540 tell you that for a moment.

00:53:18.780 I'm not going to rehash November

00:53:21.000 the 3rd, 2020.

00:53:22.500 I'm not going to rehash 100 million

00:53:23.880 postal votes.

00:53:25.260 The fact that the scandals involving

00:53:27.140 his son.

00:53:28.600 I love how he's not rehashing it.

00:53:29.980 The money.

00:53:30.840 I'm not going to go there.

00:53:33.100 Shut up, you.

00:53:36.940 He's not mentally fit for the job.

00:53:40.200 But the Democrats have a huge

00:53:41.520 problem because they've got the new

00:53:42.760 left.

00:53:43.280 They've got their own

00:53:43.920 Corbynistas.

00:53:44.860 It's very, very difficult for them

00:53:46.260 to be an effective political party.

00:53:48.500 So not up to the job.

00:53:50.760 No clear, coherent policy

00:53:54.000 positions on anything.

00:53:56.140 I mean, literally on anything.

00:53:58.560 And you've seen America's reputation

00:54:00.720 on the world stage collapse

00:54:03.600 since Afghanistan.

00:54:05.060 And we've just discussed some of the

00:54:06.500 knock-on effects from that.

00:54:08.460 And internally, well, you've seen

00:54:12.280 a Democrat party under Biden

00:54:15.820 effectively take the knee

00:54:17.800 to a dangerous

00:54:20.720 Marxist organization

00:54:22.980 intent on destroying

00:54:24.980 Western democracy

00:54:27.060 and replacing it with something else.

00:54:29.640 And that's called BLM.

00:54:31.180 Black Lives Matter.

00:54:32.200 And we're all supposed to say,

00:54:33.020 oh, what a love.

00:54:33.740 I mean, you know, a really,

00:54:34.900 really, really bad organization

00:54:37.400 with massive spikes in lawlessness

00:54:40.300 in American cities.

00:54:41.800 I mean, the likes of which

00:54:42.460 we simply can't believe.

00:54:44.700 How can New York

00:54:46.040 be going back to the bad old days

00:54:47.880 of when I first went there

00:54:48.920 back in the 80s?

00:54:50.480 And go out west.

00:54:52.320 Go out west and see

00:54:53.660 what's happening

00:54:54.240 in many of those cities.

00:54:55.220 I mean, you simply can't believe it.

00:54:57.080 So at every level,

00:54:58.920 a Democrat party that is there

00:55:00.920 because it's not Donald Trump,

00:55:02.960 a Democrat party that stands

00:55:04.200 for almost nothing,

00:55:05.760 and a Democrat party

00:55:06.840 that's in big trouble.

00:55:09.180 Cross to be Republicans.

00:55:12.460 I mean, Donald Trump's grip

00:55:14.440 on the Republican party

00:55:17.160 is very, very strong, indeed.

00:55:20.160 The country club Republicans

00:55:22.060 have been pretty marginalized.

00:55:24.480 You know, the Mitt Romneys,

00:55:26.020 the Mitch McConnells,

00:55:27.800 the sort of Rishi Sunaks,

00:55:29.880 if you like,

00:55:30.460 of the Republican party

00:55:32.840 have been marginalized

00:55:33.540 and Trump's in control.

00:55:36.400 He's 75,

00:55:38.060 but he's lost about 20 pounds

00:55:40.420 since the last election.

00:55:41.840 He's playing golf

00:55:42.380 pretty much every day.

00:55:43.820 I've seen him a couple of times

00:55:45.140 in the last year.

00:55:46.340 He's in pretty good form.

00:55:48.060 Physically,

00:55:48.600 in pretty good form.

00:55:50.000 Clearly, DeSantis,

00:55:51.520 who has done all the things

00:55:53.280 that you would approve of

00:55:54.060 in Florida

00:55:54.540 in terms of not allowing

00:55:55.960 the state

00:55:56.480 to take over too much.

00:55:59.100 Clearly, DeSantis

00:56:00.060 is the up-and-coming guy.

00:56:02.480 If Trump wants the nomination,

00:56:04.080 it's his.

00:56:05.460 Okay?

00:56:06.040 It's as simple as that.

00:56:07.640 We're still some way off that.

00:56:10.080 All I would say is this.

00:56:12.220 My concern,

00:56:16.880 having been at Mar-a-Lago

00:56:17.980 at the end of November,

00:56:20.460 is that the people around Trump

00:56:22.980 are looking back too much

00:56:26.420 at November the 3rd,

00:56:29.180 are talking constantly

00:56:30.740 about the stolen election,

00:56:32.560 keep talking about the events

00:56:34.800 of the 6th of January.

00:56:38.280 And it's really interesting.

00:56:40.300 How do you win elections?

00:56:41.860 How do you win referendums?

00:56:43.320 Is it through negative messaging?

00:56:45.620 Or is it through positive messaging?

00:56:48.600 And there's a time

00:56:49.160 and a place for both.

00:56:51.100 But generally,

00:56:52.880 I think to win elections,

00:56:54.520 you've got to have

00:56:55.340 a positive message.

00:56:56.740 You have to see that

00:56:57.500 Churchill vision

00:56:58.280 of the suddenly uplands

00:57:00.040 and that we're heading off

00:57:01.900 to a better place.

00:57:03.700 So I think the Trump team

00:57:04.640 need to get out

00:57:05.500 of this current gear.

00:57:06.700 If they leave themselves stuck

00:57:08.360 in this looking back

00:57:10.240 full of regret,

00:57:12.000 as opposed to,

00:57:13.300 we're going to make sure

00:57:13.920 America has the best,

00:57:15.640 most valid electoral system

00:57:17.640 in the Western world,

00:57:18.760 which is the way

00:57:19.340 of turning a negative

00:57:20.120 into a positive.

00:57:22.160 So that's my reservation.

00:57:23.800 Right now,

00:57:24.800 in his head,

00:57:25.560 he's running.

00:57:26.000 Broadway's smash hit,

00:57:29.340 The Neil Diamond Musical,

00:57:30.740 A Beautiful Noise,

00:57:32.160 is coming to Toronto.

00:57:33.620 The true story

00:57:34.380 of a kid from Brooklyn

00:57:35.440 destined for something more,

00:57:37.140 featuring all the songs

00:57:38.120 you love,

00:57:38.880 including America,

00:57:40.160 Forever in Blue Jeans,

00:57:41.340 and Sweet Caroline.

00:57:42.880 Like Jersey Boys

00:57:43.840 and Beautiful,

00:57:44.680 the next musical

00:57:45.640 mega hit is here,

00:57:46.960 The Neil Diamond Musical,

00:57:48.520 A Beautiful Noise,

00:57:49.700 now through June 7th,

00:57:50.960 2026,

00:57:51.740 at the Princess of Wales Theatre.

00:57:53.620 Do you not worry,

00:57:58.700 Nigel,

00:57:59.220 that,

00:58:00.200 because I'm not a fan

00:58:01.200 of the Democrats,

00:58:02.060 I'm certainly not a fan

00:58:03.240 of BLM,

00:58:04.320 but I look at Trump

00:58:05.800 and I think that he's

00:58:07.400 too divisive a figure

00:58:09.160 to be a truly unifying force

00:58:11.280 for America,

00:58:11.920 which is what it needs

00:58:12.940 right now.

00:58:14.820 Well,

00:58:15.020 Biden's not unified them either.

00:58:18.020 And these divisions

00:58:20.780 that we've talked about

00:58:21.540 in this chat,

00:58:22.680 this values-based,

00:58:25.080 this values-based,

00:58:27.580 we are morally superior

00:58:28.920 to yours,

00:58:29.760 none of this

00:58:30.280 is going to be solved easily.

00:58:32.060 None of this

00:58:32.420 is going to be solved quickly.

00:58:34.020 And as the universities,

00:58:36.080 which have become

00:58:36.520 the sort of madrassas

00:58:38.080 for Marxism,

00:58:39.400 churn out thousands,

00:58:40.640 tens of thousands,

00:58:41.400 hundreds of thousands

00:58:42.060 of more young people

00:58:43.240 every year

00:58:43.800 with that mindset,

00:58:45.200 none of this

00:58:45.600 is going away in a hurry.

00:58:46.680 I do get the fact

00:58:47.860 that Trump can be

00:58:48.560 very divisive.

00:58:49.260 I do get the fact

00:58:50.160 that Trump is a,

00:58:51.480 you know,

00:58:51.760 a real fighting

00:58:52.700 puncher.

00:58:55.320 And as with all

00:58:56.340 political leaders,

00:58:57.180 as with all human beings,

00:58:58.920 you know,

00:58:59.140 you've got to see

00:58:59.520 the good side

00:59:00.720 and the less good side.

00:59:02.180 And the less good side

00:59:03.360 is perhaps that aggression.

00:59:05.400 You know,

00:59:05.720 I'd like to see him

00:59:06.660 more in public

00:59:07.320 as he is in private.

00:59:08.220 I'd like to see

00:59:09.600 more of that sort

00:59:10.160 of lighter,

00:59:10.980 more humorous side.

00:59:12.260 Yet we never,

00:59:12.860 ever do.

00:59:13.820 But I do think

00:59:15.520 Trump's period

00:59:17.440 in office,

00:59:19.320 I think his foreign policy

00:59:20.560 was far better

00:59:22.120 than anything

00:59:22.620 we've seen

00:59:23.080 from American presidents

00:59:24.060 for a very,

00:59:24.700 very long time.

00:59:26.720 I saw the other week

00:59:28.020 the head of Saudi Arabia

00:59:31.240 and Israel

00:59:31.720 meet together in Riyadh.

00:59:33.580 There was the Israeli flag,

00:59:35.120 the Israeli national anthem.

00:59:36.140 I mean, unthinkable.

00:59:39.440 And that was a direct result

00:59:40.860 of the Abraham Accords.

00:59:43.820 Had that been done

00:59:44.720 by Obama

00:59:45.420 or anybody else,

00:59:47.440 they'd have been up

00:59:47.820 for a Nobel Peace Prize.

00:59:49.360 Because it's Trump,

00:59:50.340 it's been ignored.

00:59:51.560 You know,

00:59:51.740 when Trump called out

00:59:52.780 the virus

00:59:53.740 as having leaked

00:59:54.660 from the Wuhan lab,

00:59:55.840 the whole world ignored it

00:59:56.900 because he'd said it.

00:59:58.200 So yeah,

00:59:59.020 he is provocative.

01:00:00.580 He can be very divisive.

01:00:01.780 I get all of that.

01:00:03.420 But I think his instincts

01:00:04.440 on the really big,

01:00:05.580 important thing

01:00:06.120 is that face the world

01:00:06.860 right now

01:00:07.280 are the right ones.

01:00:08.280 Nigel,

01:00:08.560 if you get a call

01:00:09.280 in the middle of the night

01:00:10.200 and Donald Trump

01:00:10.960 is having a bit

01:00:11.520 of a crisis of confidence

01:00:12.660 about whether he should run

01:00:13.980 or maybe hand it off

01:00:14.980 to like a DeSantis

01:00:15.940 or someone,

01:00:17.480 Dan Crenshaw,

01:00:18.380 there's really strong candidates

01:00:20.120 actually,

01:00:20.600 in my opinion,

01:00:21.140 on the Republican side.

01:00:22.940 What would you say to him?

01:00:26.200 I...

01:00:26.560 Do you anoint a successor?

01:00:28.340 I may have had

01:00:28.980 that conversation

01:00:29.580 with him already,

01:00:30.080 but I can't remember.

01:00:32.780 What might you have said

01:00:34.200 had you had it?

01:00:34.660 What might I say?

01:00:35.460 You see,

01:00:37.940 I have met DeSantis

01:00:38.880 and he's really impressive.

01:00:41.800 And I think the job

01:00:42.760 he's done in Florida

01:00:43.420 is phenomenal.

01:00:44.860 Agreed.

01:00:45.440 Because last May,

01:00:46.620 I was in Florida

01:00:47.620 and I was in California.

01:00:49.740 So I saw two countries,

01:00:51.780 both big populations,

01:00:53.280 similar climates,

01:00:54.380 different approaches

01:00:55.100 and very different outcomes,

01:00:57.580 you know,

01:00:57.780 economically,

01:00:59.120 socially

01:00:59.420 and everything else.

01:01:00.240 to win the American election,

01:01:04.580 you've got to win

01:01:06.580 every state

01:01:08.520 from the Atlantic coast

01:01:10.740 of Pennsylvania

01:01:11.860 through the Great Lakes

01:01:14.280 to Wisconsin.

01:01:15.720 They're the states that matter.

01:01:18.300 They're the states that determine

01:01:19.280 who wins and loses

01:01:20.140 the American presidential election.

01:01:22.700 And they're the states

01:01:24.220 where you've got

01:01:25.280 the mining areas.

01:01:27.380 They're the states

01:01:28.640 where you've got

01:01:29.060 the heavy manufacturing areas.

01:01:31.800 They're the states

01:01:32.520 with their bits of rust belt

01:01:34.220 and some bits of renewal.

01:01:37.060 And they're states

01:01:40.360 with a huge number

01:01:41.220 of Democrat voters in them.

01:01:43.420 But what's interesting

01:01:44.000 in the polling

01:01:44.540 is that roughly 50%

01:01:46.540 of Democrats

01:01:47.300 do not like

01:01:48.560 the leftward social drift,

01:01:50.980 do not like the AOC stuff,

01:01:52.880 are very uncomfortable

01:01:53.900 with some of the new

01:01:55.180 trans gender stuff

01:01:57.080 that's being endlessly

01:01:57.880 talked about,

01:01:59.240 hate the fact

01:02:00.500 that there are Democrats

01:02:03.940 condemning American history,

01:02:06.060 tearing down statues

01:02:07.560 of the founding fathers,

01:02:09.240 telling them they should

01:02:09.880 be ashamed to be American.

01:02:11.080 They're proud to be American.

01:02:13.220 They're proud of what

01:02:14.060 their grandma and granddad

01:02:15.500 did in World War II.

01:02:16.780 They're proud.

01:02:18.020 At whatever stage

01:02:18.780 their country have come

01:02:19.720 and adopted it,

01:02:21.160 you know,

01:02:21.420 they're proud of being part of it.

01:02:23.980 And so it's how do you get

01:02:25.820 a larger number

01:02:27.900 of that group of people

01:02:29.560 to sort of cross,

01:02:31.260 rather like the Red Wall,

01:02:32.620 to cross over

01:02:33.540 and vote Republican.

01:02:35.560 And who is the most

01:02:36.280 likely person

01:02:37.320 to appeal to those people?

01:02:39.380 I still believe

01:02:39.960 it's Donald Trump.

01:02:41.420 I may say different

01:02:42.800 to you in two years' time.

01:02:44.080 I may say different

01:02:44.820 to you,

01:02:45.520 you know,

01:02:45.760 as things really

01:02:47.060 start to get ready.

01:02:48.860 And I guess really

01:02:50.000 it's going to be,

01:02:50.840 it'll be this time

01:02:51.340 next year,

01:02:51.740 won't it?

01:02:52.120 It'll be one year's time.

01:02:53.340 It'll be early 23

01:02:54.160 when the big decisions

01:02:55.440 about who's going to run,

01:02:57.480 who's going to put

01:02:57.920 themselves forward,

01:02:58.580 get made.

01:02:59.160 And why do you say that,

01:03:00.120 Nigel?

01:03:00.260 Why is he more able

01:03:01.860 to win those people over?

01:03:02.980 He's got the common touch.

01:03:04.740 He's got the common touch.

01:03:06.160 You know,

01:03:06.300 he speaks a language

01:03:08.020 they understand.

01:03:09.840 They feel a certain

01:03:10.560 familiarity with him.

01:03:12.300 I've watched him

01:03:13.040 at these rallies.

01:03:15.480 You know,

01:03:15.620 you guys see the bit

01:03:16.480 in front of the camera.

01:03:17.260 I've watched him

01:03:17.920 with the crowds.

01:03:18.660 I've watched him

01:03:19.160 walk through the crowds.

01:03:20.300 I've watched him

01:03:20.840 interact with people.

01:03:22.660 They love him.

01:03:23.340 There's a certain

01:03:25.640 humanity about him.

01:03:26.740 There's something

01:03:26.920 real about him.

01:03:28.680 But also,

01:03:29.480 he's been part of their

01:03:30.520 lives for decades.

01:03:32.860 You know,

01:03:33.380 big TV star.

01:03:35.240 I mean,

01:03:35.920 been in the news

01:03:37.000 for decades

01:03:37.680 with New York

01:03:38.600 and the real estate

01:03:40.020 successes and failures.

01:03:41.900 They feel they know

01:03:43.120 the guy.

01:03:45.160 Now,

01:03:45.360 DeSantis,

01:03:46.400 who's incredibly

01:03:47.100 bright and impressive,

01:03:48.820 you know,

01:03:49.120 can DeSantis

01:03:49.840 reach those people,

01:03:51.580 reach that community,

01:03:52.620 or is he just

01:03:53.380 a rich guy

01:03:53.840 from Florida?

01:03:55.900 Do you see

01:03:56.200 what I mean?

01:03:56.700 Yeah.

01:03:57.960 Trump is like

01:03:58.720 a blue-collar

01:03:59.300 billionaire.

01:04:00.240 You know,

01:04:00.840 it's fascinating

01:04:02.160 to watch it.

01:04:03.300 In a year's time,

01:04:04.740 ask me again,

01:04:05.720 I might have

01:04:06.160 changed my mind.

01:04:06.940 But at the moment,

01:04:07.560 that's what I believe.

01:04:08.660 Do you think

01:04:09.360 the events

01:04:10.060 of January the 6th,

01:04:11.980 you look back at it,

01:04:14.220 do you not think

01:04:15.160 that heavily

01:04:16.520 tarnished his reputation?

01:04:18.080 That was awful.

01:04:19.620 It was absolutely

01:04:20.560 dire.

01:04:21.200 that I'm so,

01:04:23.120 so pleased

01:04:23.820 I wasn't there.

01:04:25.700 No,

01:04:26.200 I really am.

01:04:27.180 And I...

01:04:28.240 That would make

01:04:28.940 a great photo

01:04:29.860 in the head

01:04:30.160 of just you

01:04:30.620 smashing through

01:04:31.620 the gates

01:04:32.120 of the capital.

01:04:33.620 With a bare-skin hat on.

01:04:35.620 And the horns,

01:04:36.740 that would be great.

01:04:38.160 With your top off,

01:04:39.040 that would be quite a look.

01:04:39.860 I wouldn't do that

01:04:40.020 in private.

01:04:40.760 No,

01:04:41.100 I thought the whole

01:04:44.060 thing was a mistake.

01:04:45.680 I thought the whole

01:04:46.660 thing was a mistake.

01:04:47.460 I didn't

01:04:49.500 obviously anticipate

01:04:50.560 exactly what would

01:04:51.440 happen.

01:04:53.080 Was it a full-scale

01:04:54.160 coup attempt?

01:04:54.820 No,

01:04:55.000 of course it wasn't.

01:04:55.540 No,

01:04:55.720 it wasn't.

01:04:56.120 I mean,

01:04:56.280 that's just nonsense.

01:04:56.920 But this isn't about

01:04:57.660 all of us have to condemn it.

01:04:59.300 But look,

01:04:59.400 it was terrible.

01:05:01.860 Yeah,

01:05:02.640 yeah.

01:05:03.200 Just a mistake

01:05:04.240 from start to finish.

01:05:05.560 A mistake from start to finish.

01:05:06.980 And of course,

01:05:07.840 the Democrats

01:05:08.360 are going to go through

01:05:09.080 a whole series

01:05:09.800 of show trials

01:05:11.680 as we go on

01:05:13.240 from here

01:05:13.720 to try and prove

01:05:14.880 that it was a coup attempt.

01:05:15.960 They won't succeed.

01:05:17.480 Yeah,

01:05:17.900 it was a mistake.

01:05:19.120 And I,

01:05:21.760 I mean,

01:05:22.380 look,

01:05:23.680 it's the same

01:05:24.060 with Boris's dilemma

01:05:24.880 at the moment,

01:05:25.460 isn't it?

01:05:26.840 You know,

01:05:27.740 is Carrie

01:05:28.300 over-influential

01:05:29.320 on Boris?

01:05:30.720 Has she led him

01:05:31.400 in the wrong direction?

01:05:32.340 Yes.

01:05:33.480 But ultimately,

01:05:34.360 Boris is the boss.

01:05:35.800 It's a bit the same

01:05:36.380 with Trump.

01:05:37.400 I do feel

01:05:38.160 that some of the influences

01:05:39.900 that have been around him

01:05:42.380 in the White House

01:05:44.500 perhaps weren't

01:05:45.760 all to the good.

01:05:47.280 But I was pretty certain

01:05:48.180 many of them

01:05:48.840 weren't all to the good.

01:05:50.180 But ultimately,

01:05:50.980 he's the boss.

01:05:52.080 He takes the responsibility.

01:05:53.540 So yeah,

01:05:54.200 January the 6th,

01:05:55.220 not pretty.

01:05:56.660 But don't you think

01:05:57.820 that if he goes

01:05:58.720 for election again,

01:06:00.660 that people,

01:06:01.440 it's an easy thing

01:06:02.940 to pin on him.

01:06:04.320 You know,

01:06:04.900 if you're a Democrat,

01:06:06.080 I mean,

01:06:06.360 that's an easy hit.

01:06:07.660 Yes.

01:06:08.040 Look,

01:06:08.400 there's no doubt about it.

01:06:10.000 There are no votes

01:06:11.200 to be gained

01:06:11.700 on January the 6th.

01:06:12.660 You know?

01:06:14.140 No,

01:06:14.640 yeah,

01:06:15.120 it is one of those things

01:06:16.400 that detracts,

01:06:17.860 of course.

01:06:19.020 Nigel,

01:06:19.400 it's been really great

01:06:20.300 to have you back on the show.

01:06:21.660 Always entertaining,

01:06:22.640 always a pleasure

01:06:23.160 and some very interesting insights.

01:06:24.920 And by the way,

01:06:25.980 one of the things

01:06:26.420 we talked about

01:06:27.100 before we started

01:06:27.940 is how rare it is

01:06:29.140 for people

01:06:29.500 with different political views,

01:06:30.880 people who disagree strongly

01:06:31.940 about things,

01:06:32.540 to be able to just have

01:06:33.380 a normal conversation.

01:06:34.600 So,

01:06:35.080 refreshing too.

01:06:36.300 Good.

01:06:36.500 Well,

01:06:36.660 thank you.

01:06:37.080 And I have to say,

01:06:38.400 that's what we have

01:06:38.920 to get back to.

01:06:40.240 We have to get back to

01:06:41.420 passionate,

01:06:43.020 but civilised discourse

01:06:45.080 and respecting the fact

01:06:46.660 that different people

01:06:47.160 have different opinions.

01:06:48.360 And with that,

01:06:49.060 we have got one final question

01:06:50.280 for you,

01:06:50.700 which is,

01:06:51.060 of course,

01:06:51.400 as always,

01:06:51.960 what is the one thing

01:06:52.960 that we're not talking about

01:06:54.260 that we really should be?

01:06:55.640 The class divide.

01:06:57.080 Never gets discussed.

01:06:58.960 You know,

01:06:59.200 we talk about divisions

01:06:59.980 in society.

01:07:01.420 We talk about,

01:07:02.540 you know,

01:07:03.440 ethnicity constantly.

01:07:05.400 are we being fair

01:07:06.620 to this group of people

01:07:07.940 or that group of people?

01:07:10.420 Far too little discussion

01:07:12.020 on social mobility.

01:07:15.080 And actually,

01:07:16.500 what I see

01:07:17.900 is the more governments

01:07:19.440 tax and redistribute,

01:07:21.300 the lower levels

01:07:22.920 of social mobility are.

01:07:24.820 For social mobility,

01:07:25.920 people need opportunity.

01:07:27.400 They need that

01:07:27.980 through education,

01:07:28.640 which I mentioned earlier,

01:07:29.680 I think is one of the

01:07:30.580 great challenges

01:07:31.420 ahead of us.

01:07:33.440 They need it

01:07:33.980 in the workplace.

01:07:35.720 Working from home

01:07:36.560 is not good

01:07:37.060 for young people

01:07:38.280 to get on.

01:07:40.780 And so,

01:07:41.140 yeah,

01:07:41.380 I do think,

01:07:42.200 I do think that

01:07:43.360 it's good to see,

01:07:44.760 actually,

01:07:45.040 some 2019

01:07:45.700 Red Bull Tory MPs

01:07:47.120 who come from

01:07:47.900 working class backgrounds.

01:07:49.540 But I do think

01:07:50.260 the class divide

01:07:50.880 in this country

01:07:51.480 is set in stone

01:07:52.460 far more than it ever was.

01:07:54.780 The opportunities

01:07:55.500 to break out of it

01:07:56.400 aren't there.

01:07:57.560 You know,

01:07:57.840 world wars,

01:07:58.820 ironically,

01:08:00.480 gave people

01:08:01.180 from humble backgrounds

01:08:02.340 a chance

01:08:02.940 to move up

01:08:03.980 through the ladder.

01:08:04.780 Grammar schools,

01:08:06.000 for example,

01:08:06.900 gave a lot of people

01:08:07.560 from those backgrounds

01:08:08.480 the chance to excel

01:08:09.720 and go up the ladder.

01:08:11.300 And I do ever so slightly feel

01:08:12.880 that middle class Britain

01:08:14.380 has pulled the drawbridge up.

01:08:16.680 Well,

01:08:17.320 we're going to ask you

01:08:17.860 a couple of questions

01:08:18.640 from our supporters

01:08:19.580 in a second,

01:08:20.220 but thank you so much

01:08:21.060 for coming back on the show.

01:08:22.380 And thank you for watching

01:08:23.300 and listening.

01:08:23.880 We'll see you very soon

01:08:24.660 with another brilliant episode

01:08:25.840 like this one

01:08:26.460 or our show.

01:08:27.520 All of them go out

01:08:28.260 at 7pm UK time.

01:08:29.760 And for those of you

01:08:30.400 who like your trigonometry

01:08:31.320 on the go,

01:08:32.000 it's also available

01:08:32.760 as a podcast.

01:08:33.920 Take care

01:08:34.480 and see you soon,

01:08:35.340 guys.

01:08:37.480 On the really big,

01:08:38.580 broad historical context,

01:08:40.440 yeah,

01:08:40.960 we're witnessing

01:08:41.380 the end of Empire,

01:08:42.280 aren't we?

01:08:42.540 We'll see you once more If you5000 is on the right.

01:08:52.560 So then,

01:08:52.920 I'm sorry about it.

01:08:53.740 I'm sorry about that companies

01:08:54.960 and I'll see you soon as they're not.

01:08:56.040 I know.

01:08:56.400 I'm sorry about it,

01:08:57.060 but I'm sorry about that business.

01:08:57.980 But weicki from 이제

01:08:58.540 and on the left of this top

01:08:58.980 and we I'm not.

01:08:59.500 We'll see you again.

01:09:00.480 We'll see you soon as you're doing

01:09:01.320 some opening this stuff,

01:09:02.660 and we'll see you soon.

01:09:03.580 Sweet dreams.

01:09:04.700 I'll see you soon.

01:09:05.380 Yeah,

01:09:05.940 m Wy têm that blowing

01:09:06.680 and I'll see you soon,

01:09:07.460 and we're so excited

01:09:08.240 and we'll see you soon.

01:09:08.780 Sure.

01:09:09.380 See you soon.

01:09:09.800 Ready for yourself.

01:09:10.660 It's good.

TRIGGERnometry - February 17, 2022

An Honest Conversation With Nigel Farage

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