TRIGGERnometry - Andrew Sullivan： “America Is on the Edge of Violence”

00:00:00.080 People showing up in masks at public demonstrations is a very scary fact.

00:00:04.280 People showing up at people's homes, invading people's private spaces for political reasons.

00:00:10.260 That's a very alarming fact.

00:00:12.060 These are signs that liberal democracy is becoming extinct.

00:00:16.220 Andrew, you still sound optimistic about this country.

00:00:20.220 And there's people who are not. Why are you optimistic?

00:00:22.660 I'm not optimistic. I have hope.

00:00:24.380 You have hope.

00:00:24.760 There is a distinction between those two.

00:00:26.900 The First Amendment means that at some point, unlike you guys,

00:00:30.580 we will always have the right to air criticism of whatever is happening,

00:00:35.080 which, to my mind, is the only real guarantee of preventing disaster.

00:00:38.640 For the last however many elections, I look at the candidates,

00:00:42.860 which have been presented to us by both left and right, and go,

00:00:46.400 is this really the best America has to offer?

00:00:49.500 You're on the right. You're going to vote for a left-winger over Trump?

00:00:51.920 Yes.

00:00:52.700 And you're going to vote someone...

00:00:54.120 If that's the option.

00:00:56.200 Andrew Sullivan, welcome to Trigonometry. Welcome back.

00:01:07.080 Thank you. Welcome to Washington, D.C.

00:01:08.900 Thank you. We're all in a very good mood.

00:01:11.400 We are. It's beautiful out there.

00:01:13.120 I mean, it's a lot of pollen.

00:01:14.780 Yeah.

00:01:15.320 It's a sort of arboreal bukkake out there today.

00:01:18.460 It certainly is. Told you he's in a good mood.

00:01:20.340 So, having cleaned my eyes, I'm very happy to be here.

00:01:24.960 It's great to have you on, man.

00:01:26.420 Listen, one of the things we wanted to talk to you about is we've been here for...

00:01:30.900 This is probably our second trip.

00:01:32.520 We've been here for about a week.

00:01:34.080 And it's always interesting coming because you see the media coverage and then you see reality

00:01:38.780 and they don't always necessarily match up.

00:01:40.840 And you are still British.

00:01:42.680 British. We've been told you still eat the crappy British food even while you're here.

00:01:46.600 I prefer it, actually.

00:01:47.380 You prefer it. Right. So, you're true to your roots.

00:01:51.500 What do you see? What's going on in America?

00:01:54.660 Tell us. Educate us. Educate our audience.

00:01:56.960 I think we're an acute case of acute cultural and political tribalization and polarization.

00:02:06.300 And this is a banal fact and it's something everyone says.

00:02:10.820 But then when you see the society attempt to actually resolve any issues, you find it in complete crisis.

00:02:17.380 And the democracy and the institutions that we set up seem to be struggling to achieve any kind of compromise on things that could actually work.

00:02:28.460 So, we're even, I think, going to face the possibility of, you know, a debt default because...

00:02:33.080 Not because anybody thinks it's a good idea, but because we simply can't compromise.

00:02:38.920 And that worries me. It worries me for many different reasons.

00:02:41.820 And it's accompanied by a shift in the public discourse and in the culture in which the very epistemology, in many ways, of liberal democracy have disappeared.

00:02:55.080 The epistemology of being just an individual person having a view on the world, regardless of your position in the culture.

00:03:02.940 The notion that there is something other than power.

00:03:05.900 There are things like truth and justice alongside power.

00:03:08.700 And I think the notion that a little bit better, if it violates some of your core tribal instincts, is no longer deemed possible.

00:03:20.400 And so, you'd rather things got worse than actually in any way compromised.

00:03:25.100 Those two things together are dangerous to liberal democracy.

00:03:29.600 And I think the failure, in many ways, to resolve that under the Biden administration, we had a chance, in some ways, maybe, is not working.

00:03:43.440 Currently, and, you know, things change a lot.

00:03:46.460 I think the likelihood of Trump becoming president again is not insignificant.

00:03:49.940 And especially since both the mainstream media and the Trump media hate any alternative to Trump, because Trump is fantastic news for the left.

00:04:03.780 You mean because they get to make money?

00:04:05.880 They get to make a huge amount of money, but they also get to use him to legitimize and validate their extreme views of America.

00:04:14.580 In other words, it's this horrible ratchet in which, when someone like me comes along and says, look, yes, we know, and you'd be immoral and stupid to deny that the legacy of slavery and racism, segregation, and so on, is not a huge thing.

00:04:30.920 But there are many other things in America alongside that, including the long struggle of Americans to overcome that, that help define who we are as a society.

00:04:40.920 That becomes very hard in this context, very, very hard.

00:04:45.280 Similarly, it's very hard to say something like, which is what I've been trying to say, which is we fully accept trans people as fully realized citizens in our society.

00:04:59.780 And in fact, the Bostock Supreme Court decision, only a few years ago, granted them full civil rights under the 1964 Civil Rights Act, the gold standard for civil rights protection.

00:05:11.420 But we should be able to have pragmatic conversations about minor parts of it.

00:05:41.420 The tiny marginal issues involved here, they're very marginal, in which it actually does matter biologically, which aren't that many.

00:05:50.440 It's kind of a handful.

00:05:53.420 Sports, obviously, and it's crazy we even have to debate it.

00:05:57.780 There's a legitimate debate about prisons and shelters, I think.

00:06:01.620 And there is a very important question about how you deal with children with gender dysphoria, including the majority of them who are gay, and what's the right way to help them grapple with that dysphoria.

00:06:16.860 Those are not questions of civil rights as such.

00:06:19.040 They're questions of medicine.

00:06:20.440 They're a question of prudence, of judgment.

00:06:23.540 They should be able to be resolved.

00:06:25.280 We should be able to compromise them.

00:06:26.560 But we can't.

00:06:27.720 Because they're not questions of anything like that anymore.

00:06:30.040 They're a question of politics.

00:06:30.860 They're a question of tribal loyalty more than anything else.

00:06:34.960 So, you know, so one side is now coming to the point where all transgender people have to be denied.

00:06:42.740 This is the Matt Walsh, Michael Knowles position, which I think is ridiculous and stupid.

00:06:48.060 And yes, to some extent, bigoted is a strong word.

00:06:51.800 But it's denying the dignity of people to describe their own experiences and lives as they really are and telling them they don't know who they are.

00:06:59.880 And that's just a not good way to do it.

00:07:03.100 Why not?

00:07:05.640 All you have, all you have on the left, which is like any conceivable restriction on this is genocide.

00:07:12.300 Yeah.

00:07:13.200 Genocide and you hate us.

00:07:15.700 And what I'm trying to say is that voice in the middle that says yes, but.

00:07:19.520 This is the yes, but position, which I think is the only same position for most people to have on any topic.

00:07:25.240 I agree.

00:07:25.760 I agree with you, but I would like to ask you to articulate because, you know, we've had our issues with Matt Walsh and backs and forth and whatever.

00:07:32.900 But the reason I wanted to ask you about that is you mentioned truth earlier.

00:07:38.220 Right.

00:07:38.500 And Matt Walsh would say not unreasonably in some senses.

00:07:42.980 The truth is you cannot change your sex.

00:07:45.540 Right.

00:07:46.220 So why are we pretending?

00:07:48.380 And you say people have a right to define their own experience.

00:07:51.820 But no, only I mean, again, this is it's problematic because we don't have sort of some objective measurement in which we could say this person trans, this person isn't right.

00:08:02.960 The science isn't there.

00:08:04.500 We just don't know.

00:08:05.680 But I will tell you this, that the trans people I know and have gotten to know in my lifetime and whom I've interacted with, I really do not believe are lying about who they are.

00:08:19.020 And the precise disjunction they feel between their core psychological identity and their body.

00:08:27.020 Now, quite what that is, is it?

00:08:29.560 And I would say that because as someone who had to explain to people, I am genuinely not attracted to women.

00:08:35.820 I'm only attracted to men.

00:08:37.100 I don't know why.

00:08:38.440 You can't point to some scientific thing that will prove it or otherwise.

00:08:41.340 But I know it and I'm not lying to you.

00:08:44.400 I extend the same respect to them that they would respect, that they would extend to me in that respect.

00:08:50.880 And obviously, if people are mocking this, abusing it, making an absolute mockery of it, then we should have some means to say no.

00:09:01.240 And there should be a process by which someone has to kind of prove that this is happening.

00:09:05.840 It isn't just a sort of I feel like it today without making it overly onerous.

00:09:11.960 And these are compromised things.

00:09:14.100 I think we want to live in a society in which everyone possible has human dignity and is accorded it publicly.

00:09:21.860 And I don't think they're lying.

00:09:23.480 I do think there are transgender people in a way that I think Matt Walsh does not.

00:09:28.140 And I've just because I've seen it with my own eyes and I don't think they're lying to me.

00:09:33.200 And I think if we can accommodate them in some way.

00:09:36.960 Great.

00:09:37.820 Fantastic.

00:09:38.440 Why?

00:09:38.720 Why would we not?

00:09:39.720 That's why I mean, actually, with the Women's Institute question, for example, I'm sort of with William.

00:09:46.300 I was like, you know, well, you figure it out.

00:09:49.840 First of all, we shouldn't ban them all.

00:09:51.180 But, you know, if it's appropriate, have it.

00:09:53.480 You know, I think you should also.

00:09:54.640 Biden has actually done something quite interesting recently.

00:09:57.180 He put out a new Title IX policy about this in sports.

00:10:01.480 And for the first time, Biden broke with the tranny.

00:10:05.520 Tranny's tranny left.

00:10:09.460 This is all going so smoothly.

00:10:12.100 You were coming across serious.

00:10:14.240 But I mean trannies in a good way.

00:10:15.920 I've always thought that's the word.

00:10:17.360 I mean, it's the thing.

00:10:17.880 Like Dan Savage going into trouble about this is because he said this to like several years ago.

00:10:21.180 He was completely.

00:10:22.760 But it's a term of affection in the gay world.

00:10:25.500 OK.

00:10:25.680 I'm going to claim my LGBTQIA2S.

00:10:29.140 We're going to get a rainbow flag out for you.

00:10:30.900 Yes.

00:10:31.340 But not with the the the the invasion arrow in it.

00:10:35.540 Like the LGBTQI plus swastika, as I call it.

00:10:41.720 But it's horrible.

00:10:43.400 It's not about gay people.

00:10:44.260 Anyway, where am I going?

00:10:45.960 Where was I saying?

00:10:47.100 So why not?

00:10:49.040 Like have.

00:10:50.400 But again, well, Biden, Biden.

00:10:52.140 You were talking about Biden.

00:10:52.780 Biden said no blanket ban.

00:10:54.020 We're not going to allow all transgender.

00:10:56.760 We're talking about only about transgender male athletes also.

00:10:59.540 So, for example, no transgender.

00:11:01.220 And men should be discriminated against in sports.

00:11:06.160 They don't have an advantage at all.

00:11:08.860 They're discriminated against by reality.

00:11:11.060 Well, no, no.

00:11:11.800 The actual the FTMs who are running in men's sports are actually somewhat likely to be injured or hurt.

00:11:18.020 They're the ones who are more physically.

00:11:19.380 That's what I'm saying.

00:11:20.280 Right.

00:11:20.540 Right.

00:11:20.740 OK.

00:11:22.540 As for the FTMs.

00:11:26.960 I think.

00:11:29.800 Female to male.

00:11:30.700 Yeah.

00:11:31.020 MTFs.

00:11:31.460 Sorry.

00:11:31.780 Yes.

00:11:32.260 MCFs.

00:11:32.600 I'm sorry.

00:11:32.940 It does get a little.

00:11:33.700 You can get your head can get a little.

00:11:35.560 Do you know what's amazing?

00:11:36.360 Before we get into this.

00:11:37.480 Right.

00:11:38.040 I haven't asked you about trans.

00:11:39.640 And yet every conversation eventually boils down to trans.

00:11:42.680 And this is why.

00:11:43.740 I'm sorry.

00:11:44.460 It's my fault.

00:11:45.460 No, no, no, no.

00:11:45.960 I'm a total bore.

00:11:47.180 It's not your fault because we end up talking about a lot.

00:11:49.940 And my point is this is why it's an issue because it is the eternal conflict between truth and self.

00:11:56.100 The desire to self-identify, to describe yourself the way you want.

00:11:59.880 And I think it is different from being gay, Andrew.

00:12:02.180 Not that I know anything about being gay, although I may find out.

00:12:04.800 Yeah, you do.

00:12:07.140 Being gay does not require other people to pretend things are true that are not.

00:12:12.220 Right.

00:12:12.520 That's the difference here.

00:12:13.460 If I demanded that you recognize that I could have a baby by fucking my husband.

00:12:19.660 Yeah.

00:12:20.480 Then I would think you were nuts.

00:12:23.120 Obviously, we can't.

00:12:24.780 But babies don't live, as someone once said.

00:12:30.420 You're getting the lesson in anatomy right here, right now.

00:12:34.200 I feel...

00:12:34.940 This is great.

00:12:36.300 Keep going.

00:12:36.640 No, it's not.

00:12:36.960 It's great for you.

00:12:37.640 It's terrible for me.

00:12:38.520 This is fantastic for us.

00:12:40.700 But I'm just talking to you as I might talk to a friend of mine.

00:12:44.740 I'm not...

00:12:46.340 What was the question?

00:12:47.960 My point is, the reason this issue comes up organically is it's a fundamental...

00:12:53.880 It is the demand that other people lie.

00:12:56.320 That's why people don't like it.

00:12:57.640 Yes.

00:12:57.880 If I'm told...

00:12:59.380 But in most of the cases, you're not.

00:13:01.300 It's kind of a white lie in most cases.

00:13:03.660 It seems to me...

00:13:04.840 I'll give you an example of George W. Bush, who at the White House had a Yale reunion.

00:13:11.140 And one of his classmates showed up who had transitioned from male to female.

00:13:16.660 And he...

00:13:17.660 And as he was...

00:13:18.940 As she introduced herself to W.

00:13:23.100 So, well, you may not remember me quite as like this.

00:13:26.720 And he said, well, I'm glad you've come just as you are.

00:13:30.280 That's a classy statement of decency and civility.

00:13:36.140 And insofar as we can do that and affirm the dignity of the gender that people represent, we should.

00:13:44.820 It's a good thing.

00:13:46.240 It's horrible to mock people.

00:13:48.400 Horrible to marginalize people like this.

00:13:50.300 And what it does to the psyche, which is already struggling with this horrible, difficult conflict between who you feel you are and who you appear to be, it can be a compounding, horrible thing.

00:14:04.460 And I don't see why we shouldn't be treating those people with dignity and respect.

00:14:09.500 And you can in almost every circumstance, is my point.

00:14:12.280 Practically speaking, a trans person comes into your...

00:14:15.760 Why would you bring it up?

00:14:17.440 We employ two people with gender dysphoria.

00:14:19.140 You don't have to explain this to us.

00:14:20.220 We get it.

00:14:21.080 We're good people.

00:14:22.480 We're progressives.

00:14:23.460 But then if you ask me as a human being that this person who's been female since birth and this person who's transitioned to be female, if there is no difference between them at all, I can't.

00:14:36.840 Because there is.

00:14:39.300 That's the key.

00:14:40.920 So don't make me have to say that.

00:14:43.480 Because it's not true.

00:14:44.980 Because you're forcing me to a position which we don't have to get to, by and large.

00:14:50.440 It seems to me the far right and the far left want us to get to this impossible point.

00:14:54.900 Because they both want us to resolve this in this essentially illiberal way, one way or the other.

00:15:00.800 And our task is to create the space in the middle whereby we can say, yes, let's treat all transgender people as the gender they say they are, as long as it is in good faith and done correctly.

00:15:12.000 But that's where – sorry, I want Francis to jump in.

00:15:16.660 But just to finish this – but this is where the problem comes because we see in Scotland a two-time rapist, you know, what we jokingly call a prison-onset gender dysphoria, right, turns up in the courtroom, suddenly transgender.

00:15:29.380 So when we talk about good faith, the problem is that it's at the extremes, as it always is, that these issues have to be decided hard.

00:15:39.680 You're either male or you're female.

00:15:41.980 And if you are capable of inserting your penis into a woman who doesn't want that, that's a problem.

00:15:47.560 And that's where –

00:15:48.840 In some circumstances.

00:15:49.420 In some – and that's where –

00:15:51.340 I know.

00:15:51.780 And I'm with you on that.

00:15:52.780 And I'm frustrated.

00:15:55.920 People demanding acceptance of unreality as a condition for there being part of the even political discourse.

00:16:02.360 It's crazy.

00:16:04.580 And it's contrary, I think, to creating an atmosphere of acceptance for transgender people.

00:16:12.080 I think that transgender people have gone backwards.

00:16:14.380 I think gay people, because we've been completely now mashed up with every transgender manifestation, some of which is deranged and unhinged, along with every single variety of drag queen, which is also – has a huge spectrum.

00:16:29.360 And some of them are bathing inappropriately, but most are not.

00:16:33.860 And most are completely harmful – armless.

00:16:37.640 So, yeah, this is the problem.

00:16:39.600 And liberalism depends on our ability to have some moderation and some flexibility in the middle.

00:16:48.440 It allows us to say, again, yes, but.

00:16:50.860 Our left and right are refusing to let us do that.

00:16:55.120 Isn't the problem, Andrew, that hard left, hard right are ideologues?

00:17:00.480 They conform to an ideology.

00:17:02.540 And the problem is with an ideology is it creates a rigidity of thought.

00:17:06.240 So, you can't say yes, but, because the moment you do that, then you are questioning your ideology, which means you're going to be expelled from the tribe.

00:17:14.940 Because you're – and the reason you shouldn't do that is because you are former – first and foremost a member of the society, not a member of your tribe.

00:17:24.540 And you have an obligation as a democratic citizen to compromise.

00:17:29.220 And our entire system of government is set up, designed for compromise, especially in America, where the power is dispersed massively.

00:17:38.080 Now, some of that you can see at work now.

00:17:39.960 You can see federalism happening.

00:17:41.920 You can see some states, blue states, in which kids are going to be told – you know, going to be handed dildos at the age of two or something.

00:17:47.840 I mean, I'm joking, but in which – here's my main issue with the education of children.

00:17:55.340 And then you're going to have states where poor trans kids have no capacity to find anyone who can help them.

00:18:00.860 And that worries me a great deal, too.

00:18:04.120 And I'm also not – I'll be honest with you.

00:18:07.520 I don't want to ban all of it because I think in some cases there are some outlying cases in which if conducted within a clinical trial, these experimental treatments in hormones and in puberty lockers can be legitimately defended in a few cases.

00:18:22.560 So, again, I don't want to make that an absolute thing, too.

00:18:26.100 So, Biden's thing of no blanket ban, but you figure it out in the localities in a pragmatic way should work in a liberal democracy.

00:18:33.780 Whether it can or not will reveal the extent to which we have the semblance of that left.

00:18:42.240 I mean, I find myself in a weird position because obviously I have sympathies in both camps.

00:18:47.020 I'm very strongly conflicted about this.

00:18:49.540 On many issues, like on the issues of religious freedom, as both a believing Catholic and a gay person, I have to weigh those things up.

00:18:58.280 But I, as a citizen, who is neither Catholic nor gay, but as an American citizen, I favor a compromise.

00:19:07.820 I favor, like, not forcing someone against their conscience to do something they don't want to do.

00:19:14.100 I'm in favor of encouraging gay people to find someone else to bake a cake or run a wedding.

00:19:18.540 Because if you can't find a gay florist, I don't know where you are.

00:19:24.740 It's not hard.

00:19:27.880 You don't have to go to another state.

00:19:31.000 Every small town has one.

00:19:32.540 Anyway.

00:19:33.000 No, I was going to say there is a philosophical argument to be made that all florists are gay.

00:19:37.240 But I think that's an outrageous assumption.

00:19:41.420 Yes, but.

00:19:42.760 Yes, but.

00:19:44.680 But I listen to what you're saying, Andrew, and I agree with it.

00:19:48.540 And I think partly it is because you're right.

00:19:52.280 And I think, but there's a more crucial part to it, which is we grew up when there was no social media.

00:20:00.080 When we weren't incentivized to be in these tribes.

00:20:03.280 When we weren't incentivized to all think the same.

00:20:06.680 Isn't that what's really going on here?

00:20:08.840 Is that social media is driving us all insane.

00:20:12.960 It's definitely making things a lot worse.

00:20:15.620 I don't think it's a sufficient explanation.

00:20:19.020 But I do think it's absolutely necessary part of the explanation.

00:20:22.320 I do.

00:20:22.900 I mean, I do think in America, you also have this very straight.

00:20:25.300 And in most of the West, you have this very interesting educational divide that's going on,

00:20:30.480 which is related to the economy and to culture to some extent.

00:20:33.720 But and you also have this ideological shift in which in which wokeness is capturing the left and a kind of a white identity politics has is in danger of capturing the right.

00:20:47.520 And in which the left is regarding anything that they don't believe in as somehow illegitimate.

00:20:53.960 And the right does, too, increasingly.

00:20:56.220 You also have in America this strange geographical thing in which the Democrats are so concentrated into big urban areas and the Republicans are so evenly spread out that there is a really uncanny balance between these two.

00:21:08.860 Which you first saw in 2000 when the country split right down the middle, the first election in which we said red and blue.

00:21:16.300 Actually, those are the first time when we switched the colors around just to confuse you guys.

00:21:20.380 And I think that was 50-50.

00:21:24.280 And it's kind of remarkable how 50-50 it is.

00:21:27.720 And that's just a demographic accident.

00:21:29.960 But, yeah, I think social media, by incentivizing conflict and also the other troubling thing, anonymity.

00:21:41.180 I've never – both the anonymity online, but then you also very frighteningly see it on the streets, people wearing masks.

00:21:48.000 This is one of these signs you should be on the red button list of things that are going wrong.

00:21:55.800 People showing up in masks at public demonstrations is a very scary fact.

00:21:59.740 People showing up at people's homes, invading people's private spaces for political reasons.

00:22:05.760 That's a very alarming fact.

00:22:07.500 These are signs that liberal democracy is becoming extinct.

00:22:12.460 And the alternative to liberal democracy is a permanent political war, a sort of permanent cold civil war.

00:22:19.860 And we have been doing that on and off now for quite a while in a country.

00:22:24.340 And it's not like this divide has not manifested itself throughout American history.

00:22:29.440 It has.

00:22:30.960 But it's just a very tough time in which we don't seem to have many people capable of negotiating a sane center.

00:22:38.120 And why is that?

00:22:39.720 Because I completely agree with you.

00:22:41.360 And for the last however many elections, I look at the candidates which have been presented to us by both left and right and go,

00:22:49.440 is this really the best America has to offer?

00:22:52.540 300 and what, 20 million people and we get Biden or Trump?

00:22:56.760 Next time as well.

00:22:57.840 That's the amazing thing.

00:22:58.900 Next time as well.

00:22:59.620 I mean, it's going to be a weekend at Bernie's up against, you know, this crazy, malevolent mobster person and both in their 80s.

00:23:12.900 That's the thing that bothers me about it.

00:23:14.600 It's like Joe Biden, who's president right now, whatever you think about Trump, it's a bit different because he's still with it, right?

00:23:21.260 But Biden isn't even in his own prime.

00:23:24.360 You couldn't even get a guy who is at his own best to run the country.

00:23:28.300 No, in fact, someone who really should be retired.

00:23:31.500 I mean, but don't think Trump is, I mean, Trump gives you a, you should look at a tape of Trump from 20 years ago and look at it now.

00:23:38.500 And he's also clinically unwell, quite clearly a delusional maniac.

00:23:45.620 I mean, the sheer vehemence with which he consistently even now asserts that the 2020 election was a landslide victory for him.

00:23:54.520 This is someone who, if we were saying something equivalent in our private life, we would, we would get that person into a mental hospital.

00:24:03.420 That's how crazy this man is.

00:24:05.060 That's delusional.

00:24:06.260 And he believes it because his psyche won't allow him to believe anything else.

00:24:10.260 He's still saying this, Constantine.

00:24:13.420 At what point do you say this person?

00:24:16.380 And he could.

00:24:18.440 You're not a fan.

00:24:19.060 I think he's a dangerous, evil maniac, yes.

00:24:24.660 And my task number one is preventing him returning.

00:24:30.740 If that makes me have to vote for a left-wing Democrat, I will.

00:24:34.040 You're on the right.

00:24:34.780 You're going to vote for a left-winger over Trump?

00:24:36.580 Yes.

00:24:37.220 And you're going to vote someone...

00:24:38.420 If that's the option, look, I supported Biden and Hillary.

00:24:41.320 Look, I'm open to...

00:24:42.440 I voted Hillary.

00:24:43.100 I'm open to your argument.

00:24:44.540 You can't have a lunatic running the Western world.

00:24:47.920 But he did get elected, and I understand that he's very provocative, and he says things

00:24:52.900 that aren't true, and that annoys me.

00:24:56.160 What has he done that makes you think he's an evil lunatic?

00:25:00.120 I think those are the words you used.

00:25:02.040 I think attempting to prevent the actual...

00:25:05.400 I mean, this is something we...

00:25:06.440 Some of us said before he got elected in the first place, that he will never concede defeat.

00:25:10.960 And therefore will create a constitutional crisis, because his psyche does not allow him to lose,

00:25:17.460 what other reality says.

00:25:19.280 The fact that he refused, that he is currently engaged in an assault on American democracy,

00:25:25.600 currently engaged in it, still spreading the lie, still mandating others spread the lie,

00:25:31.600 and was clearly complicit in an attempt to prevent the peaceful...

00:25:39.640 That person should be in jail.

00:25:42.560 Can I...

00:25:43.220 Do you mind if I...

00:25:43.860 Yeah, go for it.

00:25:44.580 Go for it.

00:25:45.100 Or exiled.

00:25:47.200 More like Napoleon.

00:25:48.460 So where else?

00:25:48.920 But the other amazing thing is that 45% of the...

00:25:52.780 Well, 30% of the country would follow him to the gates of hell,

00:25:55.960 and 45% would put him back in the White House.

00:26:01.480 I was very troubled by what happened on January 6th, and I said so at the time,

00:26:05.240 even though what happened wasn't an insurrection, in my opinion,

00:26:08.080 but I was troubled by what happened and the way that it happened.

00:26:12.040 What I'm curious about, though, is I think it's fair to say...

00:26:16.080 Look, I always try to put myself in the shoes of the people I'm talking about,

00:26:20.300 and Donald Trump was called every name under the sun.

00:26:24.220 And I remember this was a complete shock to me.

00:26:27.260 Are you honestly saying we should worry that Trump's been called names?

00:26:30.780 No, I'm going to get to...

00:26:31.860 No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

00:26:33.720 Just give me a second to lay the argument out.

00:26:36.520 In 2018, my wife and I watched one of the Die Hard movies.

00:26:42.680 And this is at the peak of, you know, Trump is evil, fascist, Nazi, whatever.

00:26:48.960 And there's a scene in that movie, I think I may have talked about on the show before,

00:26:53.380 where because of something that happens,

00:26:57.240 they have to run the switchboard for the entire city through one woman in an office somewhere.

00:27:04.740 And her supervisor comes in.

00:27:06.840 He's a white guy.

00:27:07.580 She's a black woman.

00:27:08.680 This is a black woman.

00:27:10.360 And he says to her,

00:27:11.640 you're going to have to run the switchboard for the entire city.

00:27:15.100 And she says, if you think I'm going to do that,

00:27:17.460 you think I'm going to marry Donald Trump.

00:27:19.020 Now, prior to him running for president,

00:27:22.700 this guy was an aspirational figure in this country.

00:27:25.560 Is that fair to say?

00:27:26.460 Am I being unreasonable?

00:27:27.940 For some deluded people, yes.

00:27:29.740 No, there were a lot of men who wanted to be him

00:27:31.660 and a lot of women who wanted to marry him

00:27:33.580 or sleep with him or whatever it would have been, right?

00:27:36.220 He comes, he runs for president.

00:27:38.040 He's treated as a joke.

00:27:39.980 He gets elected.

00:27:41.140 He gets called a Nazi.

00:27:42.340 Now, I'm from a Jewish background.

00:27:45.540 Donald Trump is not a Nazi.

00:27:47.380 His daughter married a Jewish guy

00:27:49.660 who he gave a big role in government

00:27:52.280 and converted to Judaism.

00:27:56.380 He gets whatever.

00:27:58.340 You may like him, dislike him, whatever.

00:27:59.740 But he has been misrepresented from day one.

00:28:02.880 Now, I agree with you.

00:28:03.940 He's a complete narcissist and a malignant one

00:28:06.760 in terms of the way that he behaves.

00:28:08.280 But I'm thinking about me.

00:28:09.840 I get shit in the media, social media every day now,

00:28:15.000 every interview we do.

00:28:16.560 If I was being misrepresented at that level,

00:28:20.200 how would that affect how I behaved?

00:28:24.080 Well, if you also said

00:28:25.580 you wanted to shoot protesters dead,

00:28:28.880 that you believed in...

00:28:30.740 That sounds like something I would say to be honest.

00:28:34.200 When you have the authority of the presidency

00:28:36.860 of the United States, no less.

00:28:38.000 I agree, of course.

00:28:38.640 When you violate,

00:28:40.980 when you delegitimize the entire system

00:28:43.100 of which you were elected

00:28:44.000 and vow that such a thing will be,

00:28:46.700 when you actually attempt to seize voting machines,

00:28:49.640 to rig them,

00:28:50.800 when you ask a governor

00:28:53.520 to just invent votes

00:28:55.580 to get you into office,

00:28:58.360 when you support war crimes openly,

00:29:01.820 when you say you want to bomb

00:29:03.600 other countries like Mexico

00:29:05.280 without the declaration of war,

00:29:07.560 when you say you want to steal oil from...

00:29:11.020 I mean, you can go on and on and on.

00:29:13.340 This man's public positions

00:29:15.820 are so extreme.

00:29:18.720 They're Dutati level.

00:29:20.900 He wants to execute drug dealers

00:29:23.420 without trials.

00:29:26.360 He's right out there right now

00:29:27.980 saying these things.

00:29:28.760 You can read what he puts up

00:29:30.520 on his truth social

00:29:32.440 and it is not distinguishable

00:29:34.340 from someone in a mental hospital.

00:29:37.040 And he is also belligerent,

00:29:39.500 malevolent,

00:29:40.420 and capable of doing things

00:29:42.500 to other people

00:29:43.060 that are fundamentally cruel

00:29:44.280 and enjoy it.

00:29:46.360 Such a person has no place

00:29:48.220 in a democratic society.

00:29:51.020 And he was always this way,

00:29:52.640 by the way.

00:29:53.620 And you say he's misrepresented.

00:29:55.460 If you so much as misplace a comma,

00:29:58.460 he will be offended.

00:29:59.600 He is the most incredibly thin-skinned

00:30:03.080 person imaginable.

00:30:04.040 We can agree on that.

00:30:05.020 But what's happened,

00:30:06.200 and I get what you're feeling

00:30:07.300 because people feel this way as well,

00:30:09.500 is that the way he was

00:30:10.860 completely dismissed, maligned,

00:30:13.240 and not only that,

00:30:14.060 but his voters,

00:30:14.900 more importantly,

00:30:15.760 the voters who supported him

00:30:17.240 were treated this way.

00:30:18.640 They feel like you

00:30:19.560 or like I do.

00:30:20.140 I'm called a Nazi all the time.

00:30:21.480 I'm a white supremacist.

00:30:22.480 I'm a homophobe.

00:30:23.360 I get up every morning

00:30:24.420 thinking of what harm

00:30:25.740 I can do to some poor trans child.

00:30:27.960 That's how I'm...

00:30:30.060 Now, it's very easy emotionally

00:30:32.080 to then retreat into your tribe

00:30:36.360 to say,

00:30:37.640 well, whatever you're saying about that,

00:30:39.780 blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:30:40.800 I get it emotionally.

00:30:42.040 And I think people in the country

00:30:44.120 feel that emotionally.

00:30:45.120 And if they're pushed

00:30:46.240 to make some emotional choice,

00:30:48.320 are you with them or with us?

00:30:50.420 They will say with us again.

00:30:52.660 But at the same time,

00:30:53.700 I don't think most of them

00:30:54.520 have given an opportunity

00:30:55.420 to vote for someone

00:30:56.180 who was sane,

00:30:57.220 who represented

00:30:57.740 some of Trump's positions.

00:30:59.800 I think many of them

00:31:00.780 would be quite happy to do so.

00:31:01.840 They just don't want to be

00:31:02.440 put on the spot.

00:31:03.720 And they don't want to be harangued

00:31:05.200 by the left media.

00:31:06.680 And they are right

00:31:08.000 when they're told

00:31:08.580 they're being propagandized

00:31:09.740 in many ways

00:31:10.420 and condescended to in many ways.

00:31:11.840 So all that I understand.

00:31:13.660 I do.

00:31:14.760 Because I feel it myself.

00:31:15.840 And I've been vilified

00:31:17.420 and lies,

00:31:20.060 just complete lies about you

00:31:21.660 in order purely to diminish

00:31:24.460 your credibility,

00:31:26.180 your legitimacy.

00:31:27.500 Because as I said,

00:31:28.480 they only believe in power.

00:31:29.560 They don't believe in truth.

00:31:30.440 They don't believe in rebutting you

00:31:31.700 because that's not what they believe

00:31:33.800 and they believe in destroying you.

00:31:36.200 And the zeal with which

00:31:37.600 the far left actually

00:31:38.640 joys taking on

00:31:39.660 individual human beings,

00:31:42.180 you know,

00:31:42.340 a succession of Emmanuel Goldsteins

00:31:44.240 to vilify and hate

00:31:46.240 is really chilling.

00:31:48.160 Really chilling.

00:31:48.660 And this is why

00:31:49.240 I bring up this point

00:31:50.220 because my worry is

00:31:52.000 that in that sort of

00:31:53.880 media environment

00:31:55.280 where, look,

00:31:56.240 the moment you've got

00:31:57.280 the arty next to your name,

00:31:58.460 you become an arty

00:31:59.180 if you're running for president.

00:32:00.460 That is what they do.

00:32:03.240 Some people would argue,

00:32:04.600 I'm not saying I agree

00:32:05.300 with them necessarily,

00:32:06.120 but some people would argue

00:32:07.220 the reason Donald Trump

00:32:08.520 was successful

00:32:09.160 is he doubled down

00:32:11.040 instead of cowing

00:32:12.040 and cowering.

00:32:13.540 He wasn't successful

00:32:14.960 though, Constantine.

00:32:15.960 He did get elected.

00:32:17.240 He got elected

00:32:18.380 with a,

00:32:19.500 I mean,

00:32:21.740 with a minority

00:32:22.520 of the popular vote.

00:32:24.020 He just squeaked,

00:32:24.660 he squeaked in.

00:32:25.900 I mean,

00:32:26.280 legitimately elected.

00:32:29.000 Lost every single election

00:32:30.440 ever since.

00:32:31.380 His own party

00:32:32.100 consistently losing.

00:32:34.080 The people he nominated

00:32:35.160 and championed

00:32:36.400 last time around

00:32:36.980 losing.

00:32:38.080 This is not,

00:32:39.060 actually,

00:32:39.860 we could have

00:32:40.420 a third

00:32:41.080 loss

00:32:43.080 coming up

00:32:45.060 in 2024.

00:32:45.860 Now,

00:32:47.100 if,

00:32:47.740 however,

00:32:49.220 social media,

00:32:49.980 the culture,

00:32:50.660 the Democrats,

00:32:51.260 whoever,

00:32:51.580 want to turn this

00:32:52.200 into a,

00:32:53.000 whose side are you on,

00:32:54.880 then it could get

00:32:56.100 quite close

00:32:56.660 and it's perfectly possible

00:32:58.340 he could be

00:32:58.920 re-elected.

00:32:59.980 My nightmare scenario

00:33:00.960 is

00:33:01.780 Biden

00:33:03.180 keeps

00:33:03.940 Kamala,

00:33:05.980 which is,

00:33:06.660 he's,

00:33:07.200 one of his biggest

00:33:07.920 mistakes.

00:33:09.580 And,

00:33:10.220 you know,

00:33:10.440 there's a moment

00:33:11.140 in,

00:33:11.680 like,

00:33:11.800 the fall campaign

00:33:12.680 where Biden

00:33:13.640 completely loses

00:33:14.420 his strain of thought

00:33:15.040 in public

00:33:15.500 or has a heart attack

00:33:17.800 or something

00:33:18.300 because,

00:33:18.820 you know,

00:33:19.080 this happens,

00:33:19.800 it's not completely unknown.

00:33:21.200 And it becomes

00:33:22.060 Trump Kamala

00:33:22.700 and we have a Trump

00:33:23.300 landslide.

00:33:24.640 And then where were we?

00:33:26.780 And then watch the cities

00:33:27.780 go up.

00:33:28.820 I mean,

00:33:29.120 we are on the edge

00:33:29.920 of violence here

00:33:30.740 if we're not careful.

00:33:32.440 This is a question,

00:33:33.560 actually,

00:33:33.940 that I wanted to ask you

00:33:35.060 because

00:33:35.520 there's a lot of people

00:33:37.400 who talk about

00:33:38.380 the potential

00:33:38.960 for civil war

00:33:39.680 in this country

00:33:40.240 and there's a lot

00:33:40.840 of people online

00:33:41.820 and we know

00:33:42.540 those type of people

00:33:43.460 who make a lot

00:33:44.400 of money out of it

00:33:45.560 and they sensationalize it

00:33:46.920 and they always talk

00:33:47.800 about it

00:33:48.280 and it's scratching

00:33:49.440 that very unpleasant itch.

00:33:51.260 How close do you think

00:33:52.300 we are

00:33:52.800 to things going

00:33:54.040 really awry

00:33:56.020 in this country?

00:33:57.340 I don't,

00:33:57.760 you're not going to have

00:33:58.680 the Confederacy

00:34:01.780 and the Union forces

00:34:03.220 marching together

00:34:05.380 and finding a battlefield

00:34:07.220 in the middle of Virginia

00:34:09.020 to fight it out.

00:34:09.760 That's not going to happen.

00:34:12.080 The truth is also

00:34:13.020 this idea

00:34:13.720 that there is

00:34:15.540 a very clear divide

00:34:16.600 between red and blue states

00:34:17.640 is most red states

00:34:19.340 have some very blue cities

00:34:20.420 in them.

00:34:21.500 It's going to be more,

00:34:24.040 I think,

00:34:25.540 a political paralysis

00:34:26.620 and dysfunction

00:34:27.220 in the states

00:34:27.940 as the counties

00:34:29.380 and an attempt

00:34:30.400 by the Republicans

00:34:30.980 also to kind of rig

00:34:32.860 the system

00:34:33.920 even more

00:34:35.000 into their favor

00:34:35.580 in some of these

00:34:36.360 big central states

00:34:38.740 so that

00:34:39.580 they can get

00:34:41.140 legislative majorities

00:34:42.240 that are out of proportion

00:34:43.160 to their actual,

00:34:44.280 I mean,

00:34:44.480 gerrymandering,

00:34:45.120 I mean.

00:34:46.340 But that means

00:34:47.080 that you can't have

00:34:47.660 a whole bunch of states

00:34:48.360 against a whole bunch

00:34:48.980 of other states.

00:34:49.560 It's too muddled up.

00:34:50.680 There are lots

00:34:51.640 of red states

00:34:52.940 and blue states

00:34:53.500 more than you would think.

00:34:54.440 You're sitting in the one place

00:34:55.460 where that's not true

00:34:56.140 which is D.C.

00:34:57.640 But almost any big state

00:34:59.140 will have a variety.

00:35:00.000 Just go to Virginia,

00:35:00.760 go down a few lines,

00:35:01.520 you'll see Trump signs

00:35:02.200 and so on and so forth.

00:35:03.140 So I don't know

00:35:03.580 that can happen.

00:35:04.020 But what you can have

00:35:04.900 is political paralysis

00:35:06.280 and then incipient

00:35:08.360 terrorist outrages,

00:35:11.380 mass shootings

00:35:12.020 designed to foment

00:35:14.120 even further

00:35:15.740 hatred of the other.

00:35:18.280 You see,

00:35:18.960 you know,

00:35:19.240 like in a trans issue

00:35:21.020 you could have

00:35:21.380 some incident.

00:35:23.360 I mean,

00:35:23.560 we kind of almost did

00:35:24.880 with the shooting,

00:35:27.280 the school shooting.

00:35:28.560 We don't know quite

00:35:29.700 what that person's

00:35:30.440 motivations were

00:35:31.140 and they've kept

00:35:31.640 the manifesto

00:35:32.760 out.

00:35:34.560 But when you're

00:35:36.080 creating these levels

00:35:37.420 of divide

00:35:38.520 and hatred,

00:35:40.340 mutual hatred,

00:35:41.300 this country

00:35:43.020 has a lot of guns.

00:35:44.260 There's a lot of mayhem

00:35:45.260 that can happen.

00:35:45.900 It would be more like that.

00:35:47.820 You have to remember also,

00:35:49.320 first remembering

00:35:50.380 in the 70s,

00:35:51.080 there were bombs

00:35:52.620 going off

00:35:53.160 every other day

00:35:54.040 in this country.

00:35:54.820 There were riots

00:35:55.380 everywhere.

00:35:55.880 It's not like this

00:35:56.640 is completely

00:35:57.920 unprecedented.

00:35:58.600 the 60s and 70s,

00:36:00.880 late 60s,

00:36:01.420 early 70s

00:36:02.020 were unprecedented

00:36:02.680 in terms of political

00:36:03.500 violence.

00:36:05.380 It happens in America.

00:36:06.800 It's a violent place.

00:36:08.820 And there seems to be

00:36:09.820 a lot of anger here as well.

00:36:10.940 Like,

00:36:11.120 I see the disproportionate

00:36:12.460 anger.

00:36:12.880 Now,

00:36:13.340 take,

00:36:13.900 for instance,

00:36:14.440 Dylan Mulvaney

00:36:15.220 advertising Bud Light.

00:36:16.840 The reaction

00:36:17.960 that both sides

00:36:19.480 have had,

00:36:20.200 it's insane.

00:36:21.320 You go,

00:36:21.700 this is a person

00:36:22.480 who identifies

00:36:23.220 as a woman,

00:36:23.920 whatever you think of them,

00:36:25.100 advertising a beer.

00:36:26.620 Is it really

00:36:27.380 the big issue

00:36:28.180 of the day?

00:36:28.720 Have we not got

00:36:29.480 more important things

00:36:30.960 to talk about?

00:36:31.800 Yet it's become

00:36:32.420 this flashpoint

00:36:33.220 for both left and right.

00:36:34.780 Yeah,

00:36:35.760 I know.

00:36:36.280 I'm,

00:36:36.580 I'm,

00:36:37.500 I'm riveted

00:36:38.300 by Dylan Mulvaney

00:36:39.360 for a bunch of reasons.

00:36:40.240 And I was actually

00:36:41.120 riveted by him

00:36:41.980 slash her

00:36:42.480 many,

00:36:44.200 many months ago

00:36:44.880 because it's

00:36:46.720 an interesting case.

00:36:47.840 I,

00:36:47.940 I,

00:36:48.460 I,

00:36:48.640 I,

00:36:48.740 this is not

00:36:49.520 a trans woman.

00:36:51.520 This is a gay man.

00:36:52.580 I mean,

00:36:52.860 it's a very recognizable

00:36:54.100 gay man

00:36:55.380 making fun of women,

00:36:57.540 becoming a parody

00:36:58.320 of women.

00:36:58.960 It's a form of drag,

00:37:00.920 a kind of musical theater

00:37:02.740 kind of drag

00:37:03.720 taken to

00:37:04.940 the ultimate conclusion

00:37:06.120 because he,

00:37:06.540 he figured if he couldn't

00:37:08.220 become famous

00:37:08.960 in the Book of Mormon

00:37:10.580 or,

00:37:11.520 or in other,

00:37:12.680 in like,

00:37:12.980 he really went on

00:37:13.540 The Price is Right,

00:37:14.200 I think at some point

00:37:14.980 to do the same,

00:37:15.980 you can see the same act

00:37:17.040 that he's doing

00:37:17.920 as a man

00:37:18.600 that he's doing

00:37:19.280 as a woman.

00:37:20.380 There's no difference

00:37:21.020 between him

00:37:21.500 before and after

00:37:22.220 transition

00:37:22.560 except for the dress

00:37:23.440 and the marketing

00:37:25.000 and his use

00:37:26.860 of social media,

00:37:27.760 namely TikTok.

00:37:29.120 He's not even

00:37:29.720 becoming a woman,

00:37:30.340 he's becoming a girl.

00:37:32.720 Now,

00:37:33.740 this strikes me,

00:37:34.660 what amazes me

00:37:35.720 is why the trans movement

00:37:37.620 isn't saying,

00:37:38.480 hold on a minute,

00:37:39.520 this person is,

00:37:40.820 the idea this person

00:37:41.760 represents your average

00:37:42.720 trans M to F

00:37:44.380 is absurd.

00:37:46.940 In fact,

00:37:47.460 it's a sort of parody

00:37:48.520 of what it might be,

00:37:49.620 not just to be a woman

00:37:50.500 but to be some sort of

00:37:51.880 absurd girly girl

00:37:53.100 who can't do math

00:37:54.060 and can't walk,

00:37:54.960 can't run

00:37:55.520 and can't throw

00:37:56.620 and he does this,

00:37:57.500 he does this whole

00:37:58.940 gay boy act.

00:38:00.740 So I just,

00:38:01.320 I just look at it

00:38:02.520 and I'm just,

00:38:03.020 this is kind of staggering

00:38:04.180 and then of course

00:38:05.040 it takes off

00:38:06.760 and he gets all this

00:38:07.520 and then all these

00:38:08.400 dumbass

00:38:09.040 lefty liberal

00:38:11.560 PR

00:38:12.500 advertising people

00:38:13.880 just

00:38:14.320 so then he's

00:38:16.080 this superstar.

00:38:18.240 Wait,

00:38:19.740 that's my,

00:38:20.460 wait,

00:38:21.100 is he really committed

00:38:21.920 to living his life

00:38:22.840 as a woman

00:38:23.240 or committed

00:38:23.900 to living his life

00:38:24.640 as a girl

00:38:25.440 performing for money

00:38:27.000 in front of audiences?

00:38:28.120 I think the right word

00:38:29.040 for him

00:38:29.420 is minstrel.

00:38:32.640 That it's,

00:38:33.500 he's performing

00:38:34.340 as a minstrel.

00:38:36.200 He's,

00:38:36.560 he's telling

00:38:37.160 especially straight women

00:38:38.400 nothing to be afraid of here

00:38:40.280 and I can represent

00:38:41.820 all the cool things

00:38:42.800 you like about gay men,

00:38:44.320 pretend to be a woman

00:38:45.100 and vibe with you

00:38:47.040 and be your best gay friend

00:38:48.440 basically.

00:38:49.660 That's who he is,

00:38:50.200 he's being a best,

00:38:50.820 he's being the classic

00:38:51.480 best gay friend

00:38:52.300 to a straight woman.

00:38:53.340 That's the line,

00:38:54.040 that's why he's selling

00:38:54.660 all these goods

00:38:55.260 because straight women

00:38:55.860 love him.

00:38:57.360 Do they?

00:38:57.920 I mean I know

00:38:58.420 a lot of straight women

00:38:59.260 that absolutely despise him.

00:39:01.080 That's probably true

00:39:01.840 but a lot don't.

00:39:02.800 A lot think this is

00:39:03.600 super funny and cool

00:39:04.880 and he's sweet

00:39:05.480 and lovely

00:39:05.920 and he's all about love

00:39:07.400 and he's against hate

00:39:08.300 and look,

00:39:09.720 there is,

00:39:11.020 I mean I'm just,

00:39:12.020 I'm just,

00:39:12.940 maybe I'm wrong

00:39:14.160 in identifying that

00:39:14.960 but they wouldn't be doing this

00:39:16.200 for no reason

00:39:16.840 and he is popular.

00:39:17.720 I think he's just

00:39:18.240 a really weird

00:39:19.660 and very idiosyncratic

00:39:22.600 eccentric event.

00:39:24.420 I don't think it symbolizes anything

00:39:25.840 except maybe the crisis

00:39:27.140 that we're in

00:39:27.880 that such a person

00:39:28.880 could become so prominent

00:39:29.900 and be taken seriously

00:39:31.800 in a way

00:39:32.260 in which I really,

00:39:33.040 I really think

00:39:33.560 there are plenty of people

00:39:34.460 who have transitioned

00:39:35.160 from male to female

00:39:36.680 who would find

00:39:37.360 his parody

00:39:38.520 of their experience

00:39:39.540 kind of disgusting.

00:39:41.400 Have we not just hit

00:39:42.560 on the very core

00:39:43.540 of this difficulty though

00:39:45.380 because we talked earlier

00:39:47.320 about accepting people

00:39:48.540 the way that they want to be

00:39:51.000 and yet here you are,

00:39:52.640 you have unilaterally

00:39:53.800 made the decision.

00:39:54.680 I haven't.

00:39:55.200 I'm just giving you

00:39:55.900 my impressions as a gay man

00:39:57.200 of what I see

00:39:58.340 in that picture.

00:39:59.000 You understand

00:40:00.220 I'm playing devil's advocate.

00:40:01.300 Absolutely, I do.

00:40:02.100 But if he were to go along

00:40:03.080 and then if she or he

00:40:04.020 would go along

00:40:04.560 and actually do

00:40:05.420 the actual transition

00:40:06.780 and...

00:40:07.180 But most trans people

00:40:07.920 don't have the transition.

00:40:08.960 No, but if he were to

00:40:10.660 change his passport

00:40:13.820 or change his ID

00:40:14.980 from male to female

00:40:16.440 I think that would be a...

00:40:17.740 I don't think he's done that

00:40:18.920 to be honest with you.

00:40:20.040 I don't know

00:40:20.640 all the details of that

00:40:21.540 but I think that's TBD.

00:40:24.880 I've just seen things like...

00:40:26.040 I watched Milo

00:40:26.960 for example

00:40:27.860 who was another kind

00:40:29.140 of minstrel

00:40:29.720 appealing to another

00:40:31.000 kind of audience

00:40:31.900 and, you know,

00:40:35.620 it didn't end

00:40:36.260 particularly well.

00:40:37.860 No, it didn't.

00:40:39.480 And I think this is

00:40:40.620 the very core of it.

00:40:41.900 It's just

00:40:42.420 you look at

00:40:43.280 all of these things

00:40:44.380 and you go

00:40:45.080 this is weird.

00:40:48.100 It is weird.

00:40:49.620 I'm sorry.

00:40:50.160 It is strange

00:40:50.900 and...

00:40:53.240 Those of us

00:40:54.100 who spent like 30 years

00:40:55.480 in the gay rights movement

00:40:57.140 as it were

00:40:57.700 our core objective

00:41:00.040 was to remind people

00:41:01.600 a few things

00:41:02.720 and this is

00:41:03.140 what we kind of

00:41:04.220 we did in the 80s

00:41:06.020 and 90s really.

00:41:06.780 We said

00:41:07.020 we just want to be like you.

00:41:09.760 We don't want to

00:41:10.640 change your life

00:41:11.860 in any way.

00:41:13.020 Maybe you'll be

00:41:13.440 a little uncomfortable

00:41:14.040 because we're around

00:41:14.680 but, you know,

00:41:15.300 can't help that.

00:41:17.140 We're not going to make you

00:41:18.140 change your pronouns.

00:41:19.040 We're not going to make you

00:41:19.860 do anything different

00:41:20.920 at your marriages.

00:41:22.120 We're not going to...

00:41:23.000 If we join the military

00:41:23.940 we're just going to be

00:41:25.440 treated the same

00:41:26.160 as everyone else

00:41:27.020 and all of this

00:41:28.580 will be fine

00:41:29.060 and everyone was

00:41:29.680 sort of cool

00:41:30.240 after a while

00:41:30.800 there was some

00:41:31.400 initial hostility

00:41:32.680 and panic

00:41:33.440 and fear

00:41:33.940 and then it slowly

00:41:34.680 and now we have

00:41:35.720 70% support

00:41:36.600 for those things.

00:41:38.480 What we did was

00:41:39.520 emphasize what we have

00:41:41.660 in common

00:41:42.100 with everyone else

00:41:42.940 not what sets us apart.

00:41:46.560 In other words

00:41:46.920 what we were doing

00:41:47.960 was a universalist

00:41:49.020 human experiment.

00:41:50.980 What they're doing

00:41:51.760 is a very particularist

00:41:53.200 identity-based

00:41:54.580 defense of it

00:41:57.100 which appeals to no one

00:41:58.800 because it's not even

00:42:00.240 asking anybody

00:42:01.060 to agree or disagree.

00:42:02.520 It's demanding.

00:42:03.880 It's demanding obedience

00:42:05.840 because again

00:42:06.540 this comes down

00:42:07.140 to philosophically

00:42:07.940 if you believe in power

00:42:09.720 or if you believe in truth.

00:42:11.260 They don't believe in truth.

00:42:12.380 They don't believe

00:42:12.720 there's any stable truth

00:42:14.460 let alone about biology

00:42:15.780 or anything else.

00:42:17.000 So the only way

00:42:19.600 they can do this

00:42:20.320 is by the exercise

00:42:22.080 of raw power

00:42:22.960 which is either

00:42:23.600 just enforcing things

00:42:24.880 and demanding it

00:42:26.400 like the American

00:42:27.140 Medical Association

00:42:27.900 is now doing

00:42:28.720 or demanding

00:42:30.840 that you use

00:42:32.060 certain pronouns

00:42:32.700 or not

00:42:33.200 or smearing

00:42:34.760 and targeting

00:42:35.520 and demonizing

00:42:36.340 anybody who

00:42:37.300 speaks up against

00:42:38.380 not saying

00:42:38.980 their arguments

00:42:39.600 are wrong

00:42:39.980 because this

00:42:40.440 isn't this

00:42:41.040 but spending

00:42:42.040 God knows

00:42:42.400 how much time

00:42:43.240 and energy

00:42:43.600 saying that someone

00:42:44.220 like J.K. Rowling

00:42:45.060 is somehow

00:42:45.680 an evil human being

00:42:46.700 when it's quite obvious

00:42:47.780 to any sane person

00:42:48.580 that she is not

00:42:49.420 but that's what they do

00:42:50.760 because they don't have

00:42:52.200 the muscles for argument

00:42:54.220 they do not actually want

00:42:55.780 to stress

00:42:56.340 what they have in common

00:42:57.080 with everyone else

00:42:57.800 it is a kind of

00:42:58.820 adolescent temper tantrum

00:43:00.060 that has always been there

00:43:01.540 within gay politics

00:43:02.760 within the queer movement

00:43:04.960 and which many of us

00:43:06.440 in the 80s and 90s

00:43:07.300 were like

00:43:07.560 if we carry on like this

00:43:08.500 we're not going to get

00:43:08.960 even basic protections

00:43:10.080 or even basic respect

00:43:11.400 and many of us

00:43:11.940 who were not identifying

00:43:13.120 that way

00:43:13.840 who were the last thing

00:43:15.180 on earth

00:43:15.600 I would call myself

00:43:16.240 as queer

00:43:16.760 felt as if

00:43:21.160 the movement

00:43:21.600 didn't really exist

00:43:22.440 and we came in

00:43:23.180 and the movement

00:43:23.660 actually did shift

00:43:24.800 and it did succeed

00:43:26.520 but then we succeeded

00:43:28.460 and we left

00:43:29.080 because our goal

00:43:29.860 I'm concerned

00:43:30.620 once we got our basic rights

00:43:31.720 our job now

00:43:32.860 is to get on

00:43:33.380 with our fucking lives

00:43:34.380 and actually

00:43:34.880 do something with them

00:43:36.440 and so this stuff

00:43:37.720 is not obsessing

00:43:39.120 it's about going forward

00:43:40.200 it's not about

00:43:40.520 obsessing about

00:43:41.100 who you are

00:43:41.820 and so we quit

00:43:46.000 and then they get

00:43:47.360 to define it all

00:43:48.180 and the trans people

00:43:49.880 come in

00:43:50.400 and the queer theory

00:43:51.460 people come in

00:43:52.220 who were always there

00:43:53.140 but were kept

00:43:53.680 somewhat at bay

00:43:54.520 and they just took over

00:43:56.780 and they've gotten rid

00:43:58.200 of the entire

00:43:58.800 older establishment

00:43:59.560 of the gay rights

00:44:00.220 organizations

00:44:00.800 they are the most militant

00:44:02.880 they are the least democratic

00:44:04.320 they are the most authoritarian

00:44:05.660 and they are borderline

00:44:08.640 violent and offensive

00:44:10.560 their discourse

00:44:12.740 if you compare our arguments

00:44:14.080 to marriage equality

00:44:14.900 with their vicious insults

00:44:18.160 just the way they just say things

00:44:19.880 like fuck you

00:44:20.940 into people's faces

00:44:22.220 in a demo

00:44:22.760 there are other ways

00:44:23.920 of demonstrating

00:44:24.580 you know

00:44:25.020 than saying fuck off

00:44:26.020 or I want you to

00:44:26.880 suck my tranny dick

00:44:28.780 we didn't

00:44:31.020 we didn't say that

00:44:32.240 when we were asking

00:44:32.840 for the right to marry

00:44:33.520 it's not a great chat up line

00:44:34.600 it's also defeating

00:44:36.120 and it's done a lot

00:44:37.680 to put back

00:44:38.520 along with this

00:44:40.300 bullshit words

00:44:41.220 that we have to use

00:44:42.000 like LGBTQIA plot

00:44:43.820 and gender affirming

00:44:46.020 all this bullshit

00:44:47.360 and I think

00:44:48.780 there are a lot of people

00:44:49.500 who just feel like

00:44:50.680 this has been imposed

00:44:51.900 on them

00:44:52.260 and fuck you

00:44:52.860 and it's the word

00:44:54.140 queer as well

00:44:54.740 and I'm glad you brought it up

00:44:56.240 because

00:44:56.780 so a lot of my family

00:44:58.700 are from Venezuela

00:44:59.400 and I have

00:45:00.080 there's a saying

00:45:00.900 my family are called

00:45:02.980 Los Palices

00:45:03.720 and there's a saying

00:45:04.620 Los Palices

00:45:05.300 that you're either

00:45:06.680 ugly or you're gay

00:45:07.980 right

00:45:08.700 those are the two choices

00:45:09.880 so I grew up

00:45:10.780 with a lot of gay men

00:45:12.060 who were closeted

00:45:13.000 in Latin America

00:45:14.540 and seeing what they

00:45:15.540 had to go through

00:45:16.320 and now this

00:45:17.400 I actually find it

00:45:18.900 it actually pisses me off

00:45:20.120 when people go

00:45:20.640 I'm queer

00:45:21.140 and they just

00:45:22.280 it's just an identity

00:45:23.280 it's just something

00:45:24.060 to play with

00:45:24.960 and I'm like

00:45:25.680 it's identity slumming

00:45:27.400 that's what I call it

00:45:28.720 it's like

00:45:29.600 Sue I'm so cool

00:45:30.740 I'm queer now

00:45:31.420 it's like

00:45:31.960 I was some dude

00:45:33.000 on Twitter

00:45:33.620 a couple of years

00:45:34.800 back I think

00:45:35.300 it was just like

00:45:35.780 this nice middle-aged

00:45:37.080 guy with a nice wife

00:45:38.060 and two kids

00:45:38.640 and a little picture

00:45:39.600 of him on Twitter

00:45:40.200 and he's like

00:45:40.740 some academic

00:45:41.140 and he just said

00:45:42.200 I've just decided

00:45:43.300 today that I need

00:45:43.940 on Twitter

00:45:44.280 to come out

00:45:44.780 as queer

00:45:45.220 I'm queer now

00:45:47.360 and I just tweeted

00:45:48.600 back

00:45:48.780 no you're not

00:45:49.500 but if you are

00:45:52.900 if that

00:45:53.400 that's the point

00:45:54.340 the point of the

00:45:55.420 left

00:45:55.920 is to

00:45:56.400 take queer

00:45:57.800 and expand it

00:45:58.840 beyond homosexual

00:45:59.820 well first of all

00:46:01.440 to co-opt

00:46:02.400 every homosexual

00:46:03.260 into it

00:46:04.000 with how fucking

00:46:05.300 dare they

00:46:05.920 suddenly decide

00:46:07.500 that because

00:46:09.020 they're a lobbyist

00:46:10.720 group that controls

00:46:11.700 the New York Times

00:46:12.760 and the Washington Post

00:46:13.400 and sends them guides

00:46:14.380 to the words

00:46:15.280 they use

00:46:16.080 that suddenly

00:46:17.600 we have the word

00:46:18.300 queer used

00:46:19.140 in the New York Times

00:46:20.120 ubiquitously

00:46:20.720 as simply a neutral

00:46:21.760 descriptor

00:46:22.640 of gay people

00:46:23.560 again

00:46:25.020 imposition

00:46:25.740 power

00:46:26.420 not persuasion

00:46:27.600 in any way

00:46:28.000 and then they lie

00:46:28.760 that this has

00:46:29.260 happened

00:46:30.120 spontaneously

00:46:31.280 and organically

00:46:31.940 no it hasn't

00:46:32.720 I mean there's

00:46:33.480 a bunch of

00:46:34.140 Ivy League gays

00:46:35.340 have suddenly decided

00:46:36.300 to call themselves that

00:46:37.300 so

00:46:39.700 I don't think

00:46:41.800 it's going to succeed

00:46:42.640 I think it's going to

00:46:43.820 hurt actually

00:46:45.440 and I think

00:46:45.980 I think

00:46:46.540 and I think

00:46:47.660 there's going to be

00:46:48.040 even a lot of trans kids

00:46:49.100 in red states

00:46:50.300 and gay kids

00:46:51.140 in blue states

00:46:51.760 that are going to

00:46:52.080 suffer from the fact

00:46:52.860 we either have

00:46:53.700 all or nothing

00:46:54.360 in terms of

00:46:55.680 treatment of children

00:46:57.060 with gender dysphoria

00:46:58.020 for me

00:46:59.300 the one point

00:47:01.100 I want to make

00:47:01.860 is this

00:47:02.360 on that question

00:47:03.500 is that if you tell

00:47:04.680 a three or four year old boy

00:47:06.020 who might be feeling

00:47:07.980 maybe I don't like

00:47:09.100 the other boys

00:47:09.760 I like this

00:47:10.680 I like playing Barbie

00:47:11.480 I like reading

00:47:12.160 I don't like playing rugby

00:47:13.700 or whatever

00:47:14.280 if you tell them

00:47:15.540 you can be a boy

00:47:17.080 or a girl

00:47:17.520 or both

00:47:19.020 or neither

00:47:19.720 or something else entirely

00:47:22.200 and they're told

00:47:25.840 this is a choice

00:47:26.720 for them

00:47:27.180 it is quite possible

00:47:29.760 that a young gay boy

00:47:31.660 will internalize that

00:47:32.700 as the idea

00:47:33.180 that I really

00:47:33.680 should be a girl

00:47:34.380 and that breaks

00:47:36.300 my heart

00:47:36.960 it breaks my heart

00:47:38.700 because everything

00:47:40.500 we tried to do

00:47:41.540 which was to tell

00:47:42.680 gay boys

00:47:43.820 you do not have

00:47:44.620 to deny

00:47:45.120 your maleness

00:47:46.020 to be gay

00:47:46.660 you don't have

00:47:47.880 to renounce

00:47:48.440 your sex

00:47:49.080 to be gay

00:47:50.160 is being undone

00:47:52.660 and the

00:47:54.820 stereotypical

00:47:56.440 models and behaviors

00:47:58.460 that are being fed

00:47:59.300 into the minds

00:47:59.860 of these children

00:48:00.580 were what we fought against

00:48:02.460 and

00:48:04.540 the impact

00:48:06.100 on gay kids

00:48:07.460 people don't talk about

00:48:09.480 they always talk about

00:48:09.920 trans kids

00:48:10.400 but many of them

00:48:11.240 are not trans

00:48:11.940 many of them

00:48:12.400 are gay

00:48:13.040 and confused

00:48:14.220 and

00:48:16.180 most

00:48:17.400 the vast majority

00:48:18.180 of kids

00:48:18.620 with gender dysphoria

00:48:19.400 we all know

00:48:20.620 resolve it

00:48:21.760 in puberty

00:48:22.440 and go on

00:48:23.460 to be gay

00:48:24.000 the question

00:48:25.080 for gay people

00:48:25.620 is how many

00:48:26.180 of us

00:48:26.480 are being

00:48:26.960 siphoned off

00:48:28.760 that path

00:48:29.540 by well meant

00:48:30.780 but overly invasive

00:48:32.280 engineering

00:48:33.600 of these kids

00:48:34.340 before they're

00:48:34.960 really capable

00:48:35.640 of making

00:48:36.100 these proper

00:48:36.880 decisions

00:48:37.280 for themselves

00:48:37.880 this is about

00:48:38.800 gay kids

00:48:39.580 that's why

00:48:40.980 they insist

00:48:41.580 on LGBTQIA

00:48:42.660 that's why

00:48:43.180 they take

00:48:43.680 all these

00:48:44.660 very different

00:48:45.880 experiences

00:48:46.500 identities

00:48:49.220 and mash

00:48:49.760 them all

00:48:50.080 into this

00:48:50.440 queer thing

00:48:51.080 so they can

00:48:52.120 prevent

00:48:52.620 these tensions

00:48:53.440 from being aired

00:48:54.160 well

00:48:55.420 they will be aired

00:48:56.520 but what's

00:48:58.680 happened

00:48:59.040 is that

00:48:59.660 because of

00:49:00.440 tribalism

00:49:01.040 the vast majority

00:49:02.500 of gay men

00:49:02.900 are going to

00:49:03.220 shut up

00:49:03.640 they can't

00:49:04.760 support DeSantis

00:49:05.400 they can't

00:49:05.880 support these

00:49:06.300 right wingers

00:49:06.840 they can't

00:49:07.200 support the

00:49:07.780 republicans

00:49:08.380 they can't

00:49:09.040 support the

00:49:09.360 religious right

00:49:09.840 therefore

00:49:10.140 they're fine

00:49:10.720 Andrew

00:49:13.340 we had

00:49:14.160 a whistleblower

00:49:15.680 on the show

00:49:16.160 from a US

00:49:17.520 Jamie

00:49:18.480 Jamie

00:49:19.040 absolutely

00:49:19.720 clinic

00:49:20.260 who is

00:49:20.900 I know

00:49:20.920 I saw it

00:49:21.240 last week

00:49:21.920 right

00:49:22.100 yeah it was

00:49:22.520 last week

00:49:23.020 and for

00:49:23.580 people who

00:49:24.160 haven't seen

00:49:24.620 it

00:49:24.780 she is

00:49:25.400 a gay

00:49:25.820 woman

00:49:26.100 who is

00:49:26.640 married

00:49:26.880 to a

00:49:27.260 trans

00:49:27.640 man

00:49:27.940 and she

00:49:28.900 made the

00:49:29.300 point

00:49:29.560 that this

00:49:30.160 movement

00:49:30.580 is homophobic

00:49:31.700 what say

00:49:33.320 you to that

00:49:33.760 I would say

00:49:35.180 that there

00:49:35.560 are elements

00:49:36.080 of homophobia

00:49:36.720 in it

00:49:37.180 that are

00:49:37.480 undeniable

00:49:38.020 the move

00:49:40.820 in which

00:49:41.180 you say

00:49:41.680 that

00:49:42.200 gender

00:49:43.860 trump

00:49:44.220 sex

00:49:44.720 means that

00:49:46.100 means that

00:49:47.440 same sex

00:49:47.960 attraction

00:49:48.380 becomes

00:49:48.780 problematic

00:49:49.220 because you

00:49:51.700 should be

00:49:51.980 same gender

00:49:52.520 attraction

00:49:52.960 that's the

00:49:53.340 position of

00:49:53.780 Stonewall

00:49:54.500 in the UK

00:49:55.080 but gender

00:49:56.580 that would

00:49:57.080 mean that

00:49:57.560 a gay man

00:49:58.160 should be

00:49:59.140 attracted to

00:49:59.680 someone who

00:50:00.060 has a

00:50:01.200 vagina

00:50:01.480 who is

00:50:01.900 biologically

00:50:02.480 still female

00:50:03.400 and as

00:50:05.840 I've said

00:50:06.300 to people

00:50:06.520 the last

00:50:07.100 person who

00:50:08.380 told me

00:50:08.880 to

00:50:09.860 get over

00:50:11.100 the fact

00:50:11.500 that I

00:50:11.780 needed to

00:50:12.280 that I

00:50:13.280 didn't want

00:50:13.600 to have

00:50:13.800 sex with

00:50:14.160 a vagina

00:50:14.540 was a

00:50:14.940 priest

00:50:15.320 and now

00:50:16.700 it's a

00:50:17.000 trans activist

00:50:17.640 and the

00:50:20.280 the deep

00:50:21.520 the deep

00:50:22.320 hostility

00:50:22.940 to homosexuality

00:50:24.500 comes from

00:50:26.020 our proud

00:50:27.720 ownership

00:50:28.260 of our own

00:50:28.860 sex

00:50:29.440 that we

00:50:31.240 are men

00:50:32.020 loving

00:50:32.980 men

00:50:33.600 we're not

00:50:34.860 some other

00:50:35.320 and in fact

00:50:36.220 traditional

00:50:36.600 societies

00:50:37.160 and regressive

00:50:37.620 societies

00:50:38.160 really have

00:50:39.160 a problem

00:50:39.540 with that

00:50:39.940 I mean we

00:50:40.780 all know

00:50:41.160 that the

00:50:41.560 world center

00:50:42.320 for transitioning

00:50:43.900 children is

00:50:44.520 Iran

00:50:44.940 because they

00:50:47.000 cure homosexuality

00:50:48.320 by transitioning

00:50:49.820 children

00:50:50.460 the fact

00:50:54.860 that those

00:50:55.860 those areas

00:50:56.780 I brought

00:50:57.280 these I'm one

00:50:57.820 of the few

00:50:58.120 people to bring

00:50:58.680 this question

00:50:59.320 up because

00:51:00.180 it's so

00:51:00.980 toxic and

00:51:02.320 it really is

00:51:03.100 taboo on the

00:51:03.680 left to say

00:51:04.220 that there might

00:51:04.720 be some

00:51:05.020 conflict between

00:51:05.760 gay and

00:51:06.700 trans identities

00:51:07.540 even though

00:51:08.700 because again

00:51:09.480 it comes back

00:51:10.900 to philosophy

00:51:11.500 as far as

00:51:12.920 they're concerned

00:51:13.300 the only thing

00:51:13.880 that matters

00:51:14.260 about gay and

00:51:15.100 trans people

00:51:15.540 is they're

00:51:15.880 the victims

00:51:16.220 of oppression

00:51:16.760 they're not

00:51:17.500 interested in

00:51:18.160 actual

00:51:18.660 who they are

00:51:20.100 as individuals

00:51:20.700 what might have

00:51:22.000 affected them

00:51:22.540 how they

00:51:22.920 interact with

00:51:23.800 society

00:51:24.000 they're not

00:51:24.420 seeing you

00:51:25.180 they're not

00:51:25.600 seeing us

00:51:26.040 at all

00:51:26.440 they're seeing

00:51:27.140 oppressive

00:51:27.900 forces controlling

00:51:28.900 I mean it's

00:51:29.340 a mindset

00:51:30.180 that once you

00:51:31.400 slip into

00:51:31.940 it was really

00:51:32.540 hard to get

00:51:33.800 out of to see

00:51:34.440 the individual

00:51:34.980 person and

00:51:35.580 human again

00:51:36.140 I was going

00:51:37.960 to lighten the

00:51:38.360 mood and move

00:51:38.740 on to something

00:51:39.240 but actually

00:51:39.720 you sparked a

00:51:40.460 thought on me

00:51:40.840 which is

00:51:42.040 people talk

00:51:43.720 about Marxism

00:51:44.520 all the time

00:51:45.120 and it's

00:51:46.140 misapplied

00:51:46.680 massively in a

00:51:47.720 lot of cases

00:51:48.280 but the one

00:51:49.080 thing that

00:51:49.560 Marxism introduces

00:51:50.560 fundamentally into

00:51:51.600 the way we

00:51:52.020 view the world

00:51:52.680 is the idea

00:51:53.920 of zero sum

00:51:54.760 for me to win

00:51:56.620 you have to

00:51:57.580 lose

00:51:57.860 you're either

00:51:58.900 oppressed

00:51:59.460 or you're

00:52:00.240 the oppressor

00:52:00.920 right

00:52:01.280 and the

00:52:02.200 entirety of

00:52:02.960 our social

00:52:03.440 existence is

00:52:04.160 explained by

00:52:04.700 that

00:52:04.900 and this

00:52:07.280 is so

00:52:08.020 antithetical

00:52:08.800 to anything

00:52:09.420 that makes

00:52:09.900 society good

00:52:10.580 if you think

00:52:11.060 about the

00:52:11.920 relationship

00:52:12.360 between men

00:52:12.900 and women

00:52:13.280 being positioned

00:52:14.880 as a

00:52:15.360 zeroes

00:52:15.780 what

00:52:16.480 men

00:52:17.260 and women

00:52:18.040 two groups

00:52:19.120 of people

00:52:19.600 who for the

00:52:20.120 entirety of

00:52:20.720 human existence

00:52:21.360 have had to

00:52:21.880 work together

00:52:22.400 to survive

00:52:23.320 now these

00:52:24.560 people are

00:52:25.000 being positioned

00:52:25.540 as enemies

00:52:26.260 and it seems

00:52:27.360 to be happening

00:52:28.060 everywhere

00:52:28.860 and the

00:52:30.160 right will

00:52:30.700 take it on

00:52:31.520 when it

00:52:31.920 suits the

00:52:32.420 right

00:52:32.680 and the

00:52:32.980 left has

00:52:33.320 obviously

00:52:33.640 just gone

00:52:34.140 crazy

00:52:34.440 here's the

00:52:34.820 difference

00:52:35.220 the difference

00:52:36.260 is the

00:52:36.620 Marx who

00:52:37.220 was a

00:52:37.580 historical

00:52:38.140 materialist

00:52:38.940 unlike

00:52:40.240 these

00:52:40.640 unlike

00:52:41.000 Foucault

00:52:41.480 or unlike

00:52:42.220 Schmidt

00:52:43.480 and some

00:52:43.800 other people

00:52:44.200 have influenced

00:52:44.760 the new

00:52:46.640 left

00:52:47.040 for him

00:52:47.980 the class

00:52:48.660 forces that

00:52:49.340 were zero

00:52:49.700 sum

00:52:50.140 were in

00:52:50.840 these

00:52:50.980 constant

00:52:51.400 warfare

00:52:51.800 but

00:52:52.220 eventually

00:52:52.720 it had

00:52:52.980 a dialectic

00:52:53.800 that at

00:52:54.320 some point

00:52:54.780 would lead

00:52:55.200 to communist

00:52:55.920 nirvana

00:52:56.780 utopia

00:52:57.340 would suddenly

00:52:57.860 end the

00:52:58.200 history

00:52:58.440 it had

00:52:58.900 an eschatology

00:53:00.360 within it

00:53:00.960 in which

00:53:01.440 it would

00:53:01.640 suddenly

00:53:02.180 at some

00:53:02.720 point

00:53:02.980 break out

00:53:03.580 into sunlight

00:53:04.180 this stuff

00:53:05.820 has no

00:53:06.360 moment like

00:53:06.920 that

00:53:07.140 it is

00:53:07.480 Marx

00:53:07.860 without

00:53:08.120 the happy

00:53:08.580 ending

00:53:08.940 it is

00:53:10.300 an eternal

00:53:10.980 grind

00:53:11.600 of power

00:53:12.760 against power

00:53:13.540 there is

00:53:14.220 never space

00:53:14.980 for freedom

00:53:15.400 you will

00:53:15.800 always be

00:53:16.560 defeated

00:53:17.020 you read

00:53:18.220 Ta-Nehisi

00:53:18.640 Coates'

00:53:19.100 Between the

00:53:19.500 World and

00:53:19.840 Me

00:53:19.960 what he's

00:53:20.340 telling

00:53:20.680 his black

00:53:21.460 son

00:53:21.860 is that

00:53:23.180 there is

00:53:23.420 never a

00:53:23.900 place for

00:53:24.260 you here

00:53:24.640 America

00:53:25.560 was built

00:53:26.040 to destroy

00:53:26.540 you

00:53:26.760 it will

00:53:27.080 always

00:53:27.480 destroy

00:53:27.860 you

00:53:28.180 it is

00:53:29.060 designed

00:53:29.520 to destroy

00:53:30.040 you

00:53:30.380 and we

00:53:32.580 just have

00:53:33.000 to suck

00:53:34.600 that up

00:53:35.140 and accept

00:53:35.740 it and

00:53:36.240 develop a

00:53:37.280 kind of

00:53:38.140 some kind

00:53:39.700 of

00:53:39.820 offensiveness

00:53:40.220 to it

00:53:40.680 and critique

00:53:41.140 it and try

00:53:41.660 to overthrow

00:53:42.200 it maybe

00:53:42.660 one day

00:53:43.120 but the

00:53:44.580 idea

00:53:44.920 that it

00:53:45.220 could be

00:53:45.460 overcome

00:53:45.760 not there

00:53:46.640 it's

00:53:47.120 deeply

00:53:47.600 pessimistic

00:53:48.300 that's

00:53:49.160 why it's

00:53:49.420 very alien

00:53:49.880 to America

00:53:50.400 actually

00:53:50.840 and this

00:53:51.720 is what I

00:53:52.080 was going

00:53:52.320 to say

00:53:52.600 because

00:53:53.040 changing

00:53:54.100 this will

00:53:54.600 feel like

00:53:55.020 a gear

00:53:55.380 change

00:53:55.680 of gigantic

00:53:56.340 proportions

00:53:56.900 you like

00:53:57.900 it here

00:53:58.300 don't you

00:53:59.060 you love

00:53:59.500 being in

00:53:59.860 America

00:54:00.180 you love

00:54:00.820 America

00:54:01.220 I do

00:54:01.640 we love

00:54:02.180 America

00:54:02.560 every time

00:54:03.040 we come

00:54:03.360 here

00:54:03.680 you know

00:54:05.040 last time

00:54:05.520 we came

00:54:05.860 here

00:54:06.100 we did

00:54:07.340 the whole

00:54:07.620 trip

00:54:07.920 and you

00:54:08.500 know

00:54:08.660 Rogan was

00:54:09.240 like you

00:54:09.540 guys should

00:54:09.900 move here

00:54:10.400 then we

00:54:15.960 got back

00:54:16.400 and you

00:54:16.660 know

00:54:16.760 him and

00:54:18.440 I argue

00:54:18.740 about this

00:54:19.080 but I

00:54:19.340 feel like

00:54:19.800 we have

00:54:20.080 a mission

00:54:20.380 in the

00:54:20.700 UK

00:54:20.980 we are

00:54:21.960 one of

00:54:23.100 the few

00:54:23.940 people

00:54:24.240 doing

00:54:24.540 what we

00:54:24.860 do

00:54:25.040 in the

00:54:25.260 UK

00:54:25.480 and trying

00:54:26.180 to bring

00:54:26.640 sanity

00:54:27.000 to these

00:54:27.380 conversations

00:54:27.880 and I

00:54:28.820 feel like

00:54:29.140 we have

00:54:29.400 a purpose

00:54:29.800 and a

00:54:30.080 mission

00:54:30.260 there

00:54:30.600 it's not

00:54:31.280 to say

00:54:31.500 we'll

00:54:31.680 never

00:54:31.920 move

00:54:32.200 but

00:54:32.420 for the

00:54:32.820 moment

00:54:33.020 this time

00:54:34.720 we've

00:54:35.080 been here

00:54:35.380 a week

00:54:35.680 we came

00:54:36.040 back

00:54:36.280 day one

00:54:36.860 end of

00:54:37.700 the day

00:54:37.960 we're

00:54:38.160 just sitting

00:54:38.480 there

00:54:38.660 going

00:54:38.960 we need

00:54:39.540 to move

00:54:39.820 to

00:54:39.960 America

00:54:40.280 right

00:54:40.820 and

00:54:41.980 we won't

00:54:43.140 do it

00:54:43.460 right now

00:54:44.200 but

00:54:44.420 I

00:54:45.000 think

00:54:45.600 it's

00:54:45.760 hard

00:54:45.960 to resist

00:54:46.480 to be

00:54:46.820 honest

00:54:47.100 with all

00:54:48.800 even given

00:54:49.300 what I've

00:54:49.640 just described

00:54:50.240 about the

00:54:50.660 cultural crisis

00:54:51.360 and the

00:54:51.620 political

00:54:51.860 the problem

00:54:52.400 is

00:54:52.780 and you

00:54:53.580 may not

00:54:53.960 know this

00:54:54.380 anymore

00:54:54.700 Andrew

00:54:54.940 or maybe

00:54:55.600 you do

00:54:56.180 but

00:54:56.400 whatever

00:54:57.140 you guys

00:54:57.700 flush down

00:54:58.220 the toilet

00:54:58.600 here

00:54:58.900 we get

00:54:59.660 served

00:54:59.920 for breakfast

00:55:00.360 the next

00:55:00.760 day

00:55:00.920 in the

00:55:01.140 UK

00:55:01.360 that's

00:55:02.360 the way

00:55:02.640 it

00:55:02.780 works

00:55:03.040 plus

00:55:03.780 on top

00:55:04.140 of that

00:55:04.480 we have

00:55:05.100 and I

00:55:05.520 don't know

00:55:05.760 I don't

00:55:06.080 know if

00:55:06.280 this was

00:55:06.660 the case

00:55:07.000 when you

00:55:07.440 left

00:55:07.760 no but

00:55:08.520 we sort

00:55:08.900 of feel

00:55:09.200 like

00:55:09.500 it's

00:55:11.040 very

00:55:11.320 difficult

00:55:11.760 to

00:55:12.580 to work

00:55:13.840 to build

00:55:14.580 to create

00:55:15.360 when the

00:55:16.420 entire society

00:55:17.240 around you

00:55:17.960 is sort

00:55:18.340 of designed

00:55:18.980 to pull

00:55:19.380 people down

00:55:20.000 if they

00:55:20.320 try to

00:55:20.700 do that

00:55:21.080 so what

00:55:22.400 do you

00:55:22.680 like about

00:55:23.200 this country

00:55:23.760 what is it

00:55:24.540 what is it

00:55:25.660 that makes

00:55:26.020 it great

00:55:26.460 I will say

00:55:27.500 one thing

00:55:27.920 the banter

00:55:28.420 here is

00:55:28.780 shit

00:55:29.080 the banter

00:55:29.660 is terrible

00:55:30.120 yeah it's

00:55:30.460 not good

00:55:30.840 I know

00:55:31.300 there are

00:55:33.040 elements of

00:55:33.720 British culture

00:55:34.200 you will

00:55:34.620 forever miss

00:55:35.700 and the banter

00:55:36.780 though that

00:55:37.220 you miss

00:55:37.900 the sardonic

00:55:39.340 constantly

00:55:40.180 sarcastic

00:55:41.220 sceptical

00:55:42.620 of everything

00:55:43.340 unfortunately

00:55:44.780 that's part

00:55:45.280 of the

00:55:45.480 package

00:55:45.900 you know

00:55:46.480 that

00:55:46.780 that

00:55:47.140 that

00:55:47.680 that

00:55:48.480 also

00:55:48.900 I'm

00:55:49.280 I'm disheartened

00:55:50.480 because

00:55:50.740 exactly what

00:55:52.040 you said

00:55:52.480 is how I

00:55:54.060 first encountered

00:55:54.680 America

00:55:55.040 the first

00:55:55.740 I mean

00:55:55.980 I'm a natural

00:55:57.120 enthusiast

00:55:58.040 builder

00:55:58.480 I do things

00:55:59.140 I'm

00:55:59.300 I was like

00:55:59.960 I was named

00:56:00.620 pushy fresh

00:56:01.360 paradox

00:56:01.600 I was like

00:56:02.080 the most

00:56:02.740 sort of like

00:56:03.100 I just want to

00:56:03.640 I want to do

00:56:04.380 plays

00:56:04.780 and I want to

00:56:05.260 give speech

00:56:05.700 I want to do

00:56:06.160 this

00:56:06.380 I want to do

00:56:06.800 that

00:56:07.000 and everyone

00:56:07.640 was like

00:56:08.020 who do you

00:56:08.400 think you are

00:56:09.000 like who did

00:56:09.740 you come from

00:56:10.120 what school

00:56:10.480 did you go to

00:56:10.940 in Ireland

00:56:11.920 they call

00:56:12.360 this

00:56:12.520 they say

00:56:12.900 he's got

00:56:13.260 the notions

00:56:13.800 yes

00:56:14.620 the notions

00:56:15.180 the idea

00:56:16.180 that you should

00:56:16.640 aspire to

00:56:17.200 something

00:56:17.500 and be

00:56:18.060 something

00:56:18.400 is

00:56:18.700 considered

00:56:19.240 you know

00:56:19.640 offensive

00:56:20.200 or

00:56:20.760 vulgar

00:56:21.520 vulgar

00:56:22.000 that's

00:56:22.380 and you

00:56:25.440 know

00:56:25.540 I

00:56:25.700 there are

00:56:27.060 elements

00:56:27.500 in which

00:56:27.860 that matters

00:56:28.760 so it means

00:56:29.940 that England

00:56:30.640 will never

00:56:31.120 really have

00:56:31.960 a bout

00:56:32.580 of enthusiasm

00:56:33.640 like some

00:56:34.320 crazy person

00:56:35.380 like Trump

00:56:35.900 I don't think

00:56:36.480 because he

00:56:37.320 would be

00:56:37.560 taken

00:56:37.820 no one

00:56:38.220 would take

00:56:38.540 no one

00:56:39.000 could get

00:56:39.380 Trump is

00:56:40.700 proof

00:56:41.340 that there

00:56:41.860 is a great

00:56:42.540 deal of

00:56:43.120 sanity

00:56:44.180 in the

00:56:44.560 English

00:56:44.780 position

00:56:45.200 I take it

00:56:46.180 and the

00:56:46.640 same

00:56:46.880 with

00:56:47.140 you know

00:56:47.380 Orwell's

00:56:47.840 famous

00:56:48.200 notion

00:56:49.020 that the

00:56:49.420 English

00:56:49.620 would never

00:56:49.840 be fascist

00:56:50.360 because if

00:56:50.800 people

00:56:51.660 goose step

00:56:52.400 down

00:56:52.720 the

00:56:53.440 straight

00:56:54.260 people

00:56:54.500 would just

00:56:54.940 snicker

00:56:57.360 and they

00:56:57.780 would just

00:56:58.220 laugh at it

00:56:58.920 it would be

00:56:59.240 silly

00:56:59.560 so

00:57:01.140 I get it

00:57:02.340 and I've

00:57:02.620 come to

00:57:02.860 appreciate that

00:57:03.360 but I also

00:57:03.900 totally agree

00:57:04.700 with you

00:57:04.960 that

00:57:05.200 when I

00:57:05.980 came here

00:57:06.320 and I

00:57:06.480 said I

00:57:06.660 want to

00:57:06.820 do

00:57:06.880 this

00:57:07.040 good

00:57:07.440 for

00:57:07.620 you

00:57:07.920 why not

00:57:10.840 oh yeah

00:57:11.540 go for

00:57:13.600 it

00:57:13.920 fuck

00:57:14.320 yeah

00:57:14.640 here's

00:57:15.720 America

00:57:16.420 has a

00:57:16.720 word

00:57:16.900 sure

00:57:17.400 no equivalent

00:57:18.840 in English

00:57:19.240 we've got

00:57:20.380 fine

00:57:20.840 we've got

00:57:21.300 fine

00:57:21.760 the

00:57:22.640 Europeans

00:57:23.380 see

00:57:23.800 see

00:57:24.220 see

00:57:24.600 is a

00:57:25.140 positive

00:57:26.540 optimistic

00:57:27.200 emphatic

00:57:28.280 yes

00:57:28.700 no such

00:57:29.580 thing

00:57:29.740 exists

00:57:30.060 in the

00:57:30.340 English

00:57:30.520 language

00:57:30.880 how are you

00:57:32.160 doing

00:57:32.320 great

00:57:32.700 man

00:57:33.140 not too

00:57:33.880 bad

00:57:34.300 how are you

00:57:36.000 doing

00:57:36.140 fuck

00:57:36.460 yeah

00:57:36.800 you know

00:57:37.520 it's like

00:57:37.920 most grumble

00:57:39.300 I immediately

00:57:43.300 loved it

00:57:43.880 I felt

00:57:44.660 this was

00:57:44.960 a place

00:57:45.280 I honestly

00:57:46.340 wrote my

00:57:46.740 parents

00:57:47.080 a letter

00:57:47.440 after about

00:57:47.860 six

00:57:48.100 seven weeks

00:57:48.600 saying

00:57:48.860 I know

00:57:49.480 this sounds

00:57:49.900 crazy to you

00:57:50.640 but I feel

00:57:51.140 like I've

00:57:51.480 come home

00:57:51.940 there was

00:57:53.040 something about

00:57:53.920 the

00:57:54.360 individualism

00:57:56.340 here

00:57:56.640 the ability

00:57:57.660 the lack

00:57:58.660 of

00:57:59.500 apparent

00:58:01.100 ceilings

00:58:01.940 even though

00:58:02.600 as a gay

00:58:04.080 person

00:58:04.380 you could

00:58:04.700 see

00:58:04.900 I mean

00:58:05.140 as a gay

00:58:05.560 person

00:58:05.800 coming to

00:58:06.140 America

00:58:06.400 I had to

00:58:06.760 on the

00:58:07.580 first time

00:58:08.100 sign that

00:58:08.580 declare I

00:58:09.120 was not

00:58:09.460 a homosexual

00:58:09.940 just to

00:58:10.320 get into

00:58:10.580 the country

00:58:11.120 that existed

00:58:12.020 until the

00:58:12.480 90s

00:58:13.280 but I

00:58:14.380 also saw

00:58:14.840 like you

00:58:15.260 saw

00:58:15.540 that

00:58:17.040 if I

00:58:18.500 were to

00:58:18.980 shift the

00:58:19.640 debate

00:58:20.000 here

00:58:20.620 on

00:58:22.240 something

00:58:22.580 like gay

00:58:23.060 marriage

00:58:23.580 that mattered

00:58:25.200 in a way

00:58:25.680 that it

00:58:25.940 wouldn't

00:58:26.220 if I'd

00:58:26.560 done it

00:58:26.860 in Britain

00:58:27.340 and I

00:58:28.040 could have

00:58:28.260 spent a

00:58:28.660 lifetime

00:58:28.860 in the

00:58:29.280 Tory party

00:58:29.920 trying to

00:58:30.320 persuade

00:58:30.600 David Cameron

00:58:31.200 to do

00:58:32.460 equal marriage

00:58:33.160 or whatever

00:58:33.520 which they

00:58:33.900 did

00:58:34.100 which I'm

00:58:34.420 very proud

00:58:34.900 of that

00:58:35.220 they did

00:58:35.620 but

00:58:36.520 if I

00:58:37.380 could turn

00:58:37.780 American

00:58:38.180 opinion

00:58:38.520 first

00:58:39.040 and help

00:58:39.580 shift

00:58:39.920 that

00:58:40.180 debate

00:58:40.520 it would

00:58:41.000 have

00:58:41.260 that

00:58:41.620 consequence

00:58:42.500 because America

00:58:43.960 is still

00:58:44.300 where the

00:58:44.580 future

00:58:44.900 is invented

00:58:45.960 that's why

00:58:47.100 the stakes

00:58:47.540 of this

00:58:47.940 debate

00:58:48.220 in America

00:58:48.660 are so

00:58:49.360 fascinating

00:58:49.860 and great

00:58:50.440 because it

00:58:50.940 really is

00:58:51.340 about the

00:58:51.660 West

00:58:52.000 and the

00:58:53.040 values

00:58:53.360 that we're

00:58:53.640 going to

00:58:54.540 believe in

00:58:57.260 and America

00:58:58.320 is like

00:58:58.740 the future

00:58:59.160 West

00:58:59.460 in as much

00:58:59.880 as it is

00:59:00.180 much more

00:59:00.540 multiracial

00:59:01.140 multicultural

00:59:01.700 than the

00:59:02.100 past

00:59:02.440 so if we

00:59:03.480 can get

00:59:03.760 this right

00:59:04.420 here

00:59:04.800 it's

00:59:06.100 really good

00:59:06.600 news

00:59:06.880 if we

00:59:07.120 get it

00:59:07.400 wrong

00:59:07.700 it's

00:59:07.900 really

00:59:08.240 bad

00:59:08.540 news

00:59:08.840 for you

00:59:09.080 guys

00:59:09.340 so

00:59:10.400 my

00:59:11.440 instinct

00:59:11.900 as an

00:59:12.220 ambitious

00:59:12.660 person

00:59:13.820 was to

00:59:14.460 get near

00:59:14.800 where the

00:59:15.080 real power

00:59:15.540 was

00:59:15.920 and to

00:59:16.960 see what

00:59:17.260 I could

00:59:17.520 do to

00:59:18.100 affect

00:59:18.980 things

00:59:19.280 in that

00:59:19.600 way

00:59:19.960 and

00:59:22.080 I

00:59:23.660 you know

00:59:24.020 I have

00:59:24.360 I have

00:59:25.820 some feelings

00:59:26.440 that if I

00:59:26.820 stayed in

00:59:27.200 England

00:59:27.440 you know

00:59:27.780 I was

00:59:28.060 president

00:59:28.440 of the

00:59:28.620 union

00:59:28.780 I was

00:59:29.080 going to

00:59:29.320 do

00:59:29.480 the

00:59:29.640 natural

00:59:29.940 I was

00:59:30.540 following

00:59:31.120 you know

00:59:31.980 I would

00:59:32.840 have been

00:59:33.120 among

00:59:33.400 almost certainly

00:59:34.340 among that

00:59:35.960 generation

00:59:36.480 of Boris

00:59:37.240 and he

00:59:38.080 was a

00:59:38.640 year below

00:59:39.100 me

00:59:39.360 and Cameron

00:59:40.280 maybe all

00:59:40.580 those people

00:59:41.000 and would

00:59:41.420 have known

00:59:41.760 them pretty

00:59:42.660 well

00:59:43.080 but didn't

00:59:44.760 and then I

00:59:47.440 think of

00:59:47.900 you know this

00:59:49.300 about me

00:59:49.520 my high school

00:59:49.960 friend

00:59:50.220 Keir

00:59:50.520 who I

00:59:52.220 spent five

00:59:52.740 years debating

00:59:53.480 with at

00:59:53.980 Rugged Grammar

00:59:54.600 and now he's

00:59:56.080 the leader of the

00:59:56.500 opposition probably

00:59:57.100 going to be the

00:59:57.560 next prime

00:59:57.960 minister

00:59:58.260 and part

01:00:00.040 of you

01:00:00.260 thinks

01:00:00.580 wouldn't it

01:00:01.560 be great

01:00:01.980 if I

01:00:03.060 was battling

01:00:03.620 Keir like

01:00:04.180 we used to

01:00:04.620 do on the

01:00:05.020 424 bus

01:00:05.820 in the

01:00:06.060 morning

01:00:06.360 at the

01:00:07.940 dispatch box

01:00:08.580 at the

01:00:08.780 House of

01:00:09.080 Commons

01:00:09.320 and it's

01:00:09.920 not something

01:00:10.440 out of

01:00:11.020 it's not

01:00:12.840 it's not a

01:00:13.280 crazy idea

01:00:14.020 that might

01:00:14.480 possibly have

01:00:15.080 happened in

01:00:15.500 some way or

01:00:15.940 other

01:00:16.120 and I'm

01:00:16.640 not

01:00:16.860 I'm here

01:00:17.320 but you

01:00:19.800 know life's

01:00:20.240 weird

01:00:20.460 you take

01:00:21.820 you take a

01:00:22.740 decision at one

01:00:23.340 point it leads

01:00:23.920 to a million

01:00:24.300 others

01:00:24.680 elsewhere

01:00:25.820 the men

01:00:28.540 here are

01:00:29.060 also immensely

01:00:29.980 hotter

01:00:30.380 than in the

01:00:32.080 United Kingdom

01:00:32.660 certainly in the

01:00:33.660 United Kingdom

01:00:34.100 of the 1980s

01:00:34.840 and 90s

01:00:35.360 it's a little

01:00:36.720 bit more

01:00:37.080 it's a little

01:00:38.040 bit fresher

01:00:38.820 now in

01:00:39.740 London and

01:00:40.180 London now

01:00:40.660 become this

01:00:41.180 like crazy

01:00:41.940 sex pit

01:00:43.200 really

01:00:43.560 but

01:00:45.800 so no

01:00:48.120 I love

01:00:48.580 this place

01:00:49.140 this is why

01:00:50.200 it broke

01:00:50.520 my heart

01:00:50.900 to see

01:00:51.180 someone like

01:00:51.560 Trump win

01:00:51.920 the presidency

01:00:52.440 and

01:00:53.140 and it's

01:00:55.260 been really

01:00:55.560 good to

01:00:55.860 me

01:00:56.060 I can't

01:00:57.500 imagine for

01:00:57.920 example a

01:00:58.400 25 year old

01:00:59.140 American being

01:01:00.240 named editor of

01:01:00.960 the spectator

01:01:01.500 but that was

01:01:01.960 the equivalent of

01:01:02.480 what happened

01:01:02.860 to me when I

01:01:04.100 was in my

01:01:04.460 20s in this

01:01:05.020 country in the

01:01:05.480 New Republic

01:01:05.960 that's an

01:01:07.200 amazingly open

01:01:08.080 society

01:01:08.680 almost never

01:01:10.500 what right do

01:01:11.860 you think you

01:01:12.240 have to come

01:01:12.720 here and

01:01:13.060 mouth off

01:01:13.760 you weren't

01:01:14.060 born here

01:01:14.540 the most you

01:01:16.440 get is liberals

01:01:16.960 telling me

01:01:17.480 they told me

01:01:18.860 about Obama

01:01:20.080 you don't

01:01:20.920 understand you

01:01:21.460 don't you

01:01:21.720 never grow up in

01:01:22.220 this country

01:01:22.600 they'll never

01:01:23.200 elect a black

01:01:23.740 president

01:01:24.080 they're never

01:01:24.560 you just

01:01:25.860 you don't

01:01:26.260 get it

01:01:26.960 maybe not

01:01:29.480 maybe the

01:01:29.940 immigrant is

01:01:30.380 actually the

01:01:30.760 person with

01:01:31.220 the best

01:01:31.640 understanding of

01:01:32.680 America because

01:01:33.240 it's the best

01:01:34.440 spirit of

01:01:34.880 America

01:01:35.260 but again

01:01:36.160 we've also

01:01:36.560 seen then

01:01:37.260 that spirit

01:01:38.240 of immigration

01:01:38.820 be threatened

01:01:39.940 in many ways

01:01:41.000 again because

01:01:41.480 it wasn't

01:01:43.160 it wasn't

01:01:43.780 pursued

01:01:44.260 properly in

01:01:45.720 the past

01:01:46.300 or in the

01:01:47.260 present

01:01:47.540 or in the

01:01:48.500 well now of

01:01:49.240 course we just

01:01:49.780 can't fucking

01:01:50.820 solve it because

01:01:51.600 we can't

01:01:52.580 agree

01:01:53.020 tomorrow we

01:01:55.140 could build a

01:01:55.640 million dollar

01:01:56.160 war there's

01:01:56.900 nothing stopping

01:01:57.660 the congress

01:01:58.460 or president

01:01:59.140 from doing the

01:01:59.840 things that

01:02:00.260 would stop

01:02:01.120 illegal immigration

01:02:01.980 I mean

01:02:03.720 technically speaking

01:02:04.660 but the politics

01:02:05.380 and the culture

01:02:05.860 of it prevents

01:02:07.060 it from

01:02:07.980 occurring

01:02:08.440 Andrew you

01:02:09.560 still sound

01:02:10.440 optimistic about

01:02:11.900 this country

01:02:12.520 and there's

01:02:13.740 people who are

01:02:14.300 not why are

01:02:14.880 you optimistic

01:02:15.420 I'm not optimistic

01:02:16.200 I have hope

01:02:16.880 you have hope

01:02:17.560 there is a

01:02:17.860 distinction between

01:02:18.520 those two

01:02:19.060 of course I

01:02:20.780 have hope

01:02:21.100 you look at

01:02:21.480 the history

01:02:21.780 of this country

01:02:22.340 it's an

01:02:23.440 incredibly

01:02:24.060 boisterous

01:02:25.060 unpredictable

01:02:26.080 young

01:02:27.160 dynamic place

01:02:28.800 320-30 million

01:02:30.180 people across

01:02:31.160 a continent

01:02:31.740 this is a

01:02:32.720 country which

01:02:33.320 has Miami

01:02:34.000 and Seattle

01:02:34.820 it has

01:02:35.700 Alabama

01:02:36.360 and Minnesota

01:02:37.560 it's just

01:02:38.140 impossible to

01:02:39.040 discount this

01:02:39.580 place

01:02:39.920 and its

01:02:41.260 constitutional

01:02:41.720 system is

01:02:42.440 not finished

01:02:43.760 I mean

01:02:44.180 we you know

01:02:45.720 at some point

01:02:47.260 we'll look back

01:02:47.760 and see this

01:02:48.240 period of

01:02:48.660 populist

01:02:49.040 turbulence

01:02:49.420 and see

01:02:49.780 how well

01:02:50.240 the institutions

01:02:50.840 did

01:02:51.280 I don't think

01:02:54.560 they completely

01:02:55.220 failed

01:02:55.660 I mean

01:02:55.900 they've been

01:02:56.340 pushed

01:02:56.760 and pushed

01:02:57.340 and pushed

01:02:57.980 if Trump

01:02:59.020 wins again

01:02:59.460 there's going

01:02:59.780 to be a

01:03:00.420 stress test

01:03:01.580 of immense

01:03:02.320 proportions

01:03:03.380 but

01:03:06.880 power is still

01:03:08.480 pretty much

01:03:08.960 dispersed

01:03:09.440 there is a

01:03:10.760 variety of

01:03:11.180 different policy

01:03:11.680 options

01:03:12.060 we can judge

01:03:12.640 them

01:03:12.920 the first

01:03:14.240 amendment

01:03:14.580 means that

01:03:15.240 at some

01:03:15.700 point

01:03:16.100 unlike you

01:03:16.760 guys

01:03:17.100 we will

01:03:18.400 always have

01:03:19.080 the right

01:03:19.440 to air

01:03:19.980 criticism

01:03:20.860 of whatever

01:03:21.380 is happening

01:03:21.920 which to

01:03:23.000 my mind

01:03:23.340 is the only

01:03:23.700 real guarantee

01:03:24.260 of preventing

01:03:25.000 disaster

01:03:25.600 and we're

01:03:28.080 a lucky

01:03:28.360 country

01:03:28.800 for fuck's sake

01:03:29.760 it's vast

01:03:30.540 huge amounts

01:03:31.520 of natural

01:03:31.840 resources

01:03:32.220 huge numbers

01:03:33.100 of people

01:03:33.580 happily less

01:03:35.520 overly regulated

01:03:36.520 in tax country

01:03:37.160 which means that

01:03:37.680 we consistently

01:03:38.620 produce more

01:03:39.360 growth

01:03:39.800 more innovation

01:03:41.080 we're leading

01:03:41.640 the major

01:03:42.120 industries of

01:03:42.800 the world

01:03:43.400 it's a

01:03:46.640 crazy ass

01:03:48.140 wonderful

01:03:49.040 nightmare

01:03:49.740 of a place

01:03:50.400 and I think

01:03:52.140 that makes it

01:03:52.780 very different

01:03:53.240 than most

01:03:53.600 other countries

01:03:54.200 and you

01:03:56.320 either

01:03:56.720 are appalled

01:03:57.900 and crawl

01:03:58.340 home

01:03:58.660 or you

01:04:00.560 embrace

01:04:02.600 the

01:04:02.940 embrace it

01:04:05.440 it's the energy

01:04:06.700 here

01:04:07.020 yeah of course

01:04:08.340 it is the energy

01:04:09.020 it's the shore

01:04:10.120 energy

01:04:10.640 it's addictive

01:04:12.820 here

01:04:13.280 because like

01:04:14.100 you said

01:04:14.540 it's the

01:04:14.960 opportunity

01:04:15.680 everybody's here

01:04:17.180 to make it

01:04:17.860 everybody wants

01:04:18.740 to make it

01:04:19.360 there's not

01:04:19.940 the sense

01:04:20.420 of being

01:04:20.720 dragged down

01:04:21.380 like you get

01:04:21.880 in the

01:04:22.120 UK

01:04:22.360 why are you

01:04:23.240 doing that

01:04:23.800 it's less

01:04:24.440 where are you

01:04:25.080 from

01:04:25.480 than where

01:04:26.680 are you

01:04:26.820 going

01:04:27.080 where are

01:04:27.560 you

01:04:27.680 going

01:04:27.900 and that's

01:04:28.440 what I

01:04:28.700 love here

01:04:29.120 it is

01:04:29.580 it also

01:04:31.200 means you're

01:04:31.700 going to get

01:04:31.860 a bunch

01:04:32.260 of fucking

01:04:32.660 crazy people

01:04:33.340 in this

01:04:33.600 country

01:04:33.900 you're going

01:04:34.520 to get

01:04:34.660 extremes

01:04:35.120 of right

01:04:35.440 and left

01:04:35.740 that are

01:04:35.920 going to

01:04:36.040 be even

01:04:36.360 more wacky

01:04:36.940 than elsewhere

01:04:37.480 I mean

01:04:38.340 we're on

01:04:39.160 the anniversary

01:04:39.640 of the Waco

01:04:40.220 situation

01:04:41.840 how could you

01:04:43.580 imagine

01:04:44.160 that happening

01:04:44.860 in any other

01:04:45.440 country on earth

01:04:46.340 a religious sect

01:04:47.400 holed up

01:04:48.040 up against

01:04:48.920 an absolutely

01:04:49.420 idiotic

01:04:50.180 bullheaded

01:04:51.060 ATF

01:04:52.580 tanks

01:04:54.120 immolation

01:04:56.320 of 90 people

01:04:57.220 I mean

01:04:57.420 the whole thing

01:04:58.000 is out of

01:04:58.700 out of Waco

01:04:59.500 and the

01:05:02.600 one really

01:05:03.220 weird thing

01:05:03.760 about America

01:05:04.260 though

01:05:04.460 I'll tell

01:05:04.740 you this

01:05:05.100 it's a

01:05:06.980 vast

01:05:07.280 and exciting

01:05:07.820 and it's

01:05:08.440 incredibly

01:05:09.000 paranoid

01:05:09.560 Americans

01:05:11.040 have this

01:05:11.520 deep strain

01:05:12.600 of paranoia

01:05:13.320 and you

01:05:14.200 think of

01:05:14.620 I can

01:05:15.440 imagine

01:05:15.780 someone

01:05:16.160 born in

01:05:17.040 Alsace

01:05:17.500 Lorraine

01:05:17.960 being paranoid

01:05:19.120 about who's

01:05:19.700 going to

01:05:19.900 come next

01:05:20.460 the Germans

01:05:21.220 or the French

01:05:21.840 I don't

01:05:22.740 really see

01:05:23.120 whose turn

01:05:23.520 is it now

01:05:24.180 in the

01:05:25.540 middle of

01:05:25.980 fucking

01:05:26.280 desert

01:05:26.620 in the

01:05:26.920 middle

01:05:27.100 of

01:05:27.240 America

01:05:27.540 you're

01:05:27.940 worried

01:05:28.280 about

01:05:28.620 two

01:05:29.120 vast

01:05:29.620 oceans

01:05:30.100 and they're

01:05:30.920 coming to

01:05:31.340 get you

01:05:31.840 no one's

01:05:32.960 coming to

01:05:33.260 get you

01:05:33.580 guys

01:05:33.980 except

01:05:34.400 yourselves

01:05:34.960 but

01:05:36.780 that's

01:05:37.940 all part

01:05:38.300 of it

01:05:38.520 too

01:05:38.840 unfortunately

01:05:39.760 I think

01:05:40.180 some of

01:05:40.880 the

01:05:40.940 and again

01:05:41.360 sometimes

01:05:41.800 the old

01:05:42.620 system

01:05:43.220 did really

01:05:43.620 keep

01:05:43.940 part of

01:05:44.340 America

01:05:44.620 out

01:05:44.820 the one

01:05:45.100 thing

01:05:45.360 I think

01:05:45.900 you should

01:05:46.180 say

01:05:46.320 about

01:05:46.520 Donald

01:05:46.840 Trump

01:05:47.120 is

01:05:47.340 that

01:05:47.560 he

01:05:48.220 does

01:05:48.500 represent

01:05:48.920 something

01:05:49.260 real

01:05:49.600 in

01:05:49.740 America

01:05:50.100 absolutely

01:05:51.040 cheesy

01:05:51.560 awful

01:05:52.100 self

01:05:53.300 aggrandizing

01:05:54.060 money

01:05:54.820 grubbing

01:05:55.500 vulgar

01:05:56.660 capitalist

01:05:57.900 crony

01:05:59.460 capitalist

01:05:59.980 worse

01:06:00.440 they deserve

01:06:02.440 to be

01:06:02.620 represented

01:06:03.000 in the

01:06:03.640 White House

01:06:04.060 as well

01:06:04.620 to some extent

01:06:05.360 he represented

01:06:05.880 part of

01:06:06.240 America

01:06:06.500 that we're

01:06:06.820 kind of

01:06:07.120 ashamed

01:06:07.360 of

01:06:07.560 but that

01:06:07.860 is

01:06:08.020 real

01:06:08.440 I think

01:06:09.420 he also

01:06:09.840 represented

01:06:10.400 I know

01:06:10.740 it seems

01:06:11.060 like I'm

01:06:11.420 a massive

01:06:11.720 Trump fan

01:06:12.240 I'm not

01:06:12.860 but just

01:06:13.680 to play

01:06:14.120 to complete

01:06:15.360 the picture

01:06:15.800 perhaps

01:06:16.320 he's got

01:06:17.720 little

01:06:17.920 MAGA symbols

01:06:18.560 in his

01:06:18.900 shirt

01:06:19.140 in his

01:06:20.440 blazer

01:06:20.840 he sewed

01:06:21.700 them in

01:06:21.960 he also

01:06:22.520 look

01:06:22.960 this is

01:06:24.020 the disease

01:06:24.940 of the

01:06:25.300 West

01:06:25.720 that I'm

01:06:27.180 very concerned

01:06:27.900 about

01:06:28.280 which is

01:06:29.280 there are

01:06:29.620 far too

01:06:30.080 many people

01:06:30.760 and I talk

01:06:31.860 about in

01:06:32.420 my book

01:06:32.900 about this

01:06:33.380 in the West

01:06:34.380 who have

01:06:35.120 accepted this

01:06:36.020 idea that

01:06:36.880 Steve Bannon

01:06:37.460 when he talks

01:06:38.120 about how he

01:06:38.620 got Trump

01:06:38.980 elected

01:06:39.360 calls managed

01:06:41.020 decline

01:06:41.440 there are

01:06:42.420 far too

01:06:42.840 many people

01:06:43.420 and in

01:06:43.940 Britain

01:06:44.160 this is

01:06:44.540 even worse

01:06:45.080 than it

01:06:45.360 is in

01:06:45.600 this

01:06:45.760 country

01:06:46.080 far too

01:06:46.980 many people

01:06:47.480 who feel

01:06:47.900 like we've

01:06:48.360 had our

01:06:48.720 turn

01:06:49.000 and now

01:06:49.820 it's time

01:06:50.180 to roll

01:06:50.580 over and

01:06:51.200 die

01:06:51.560 and people

01:06:53.140 in this

01:06:53.780 country

01:06:54.080 thank God

01:06:54.840 don't want

01:06:55.340 to hear

01:06:55.580 that

01:06:55.840 and so

01:06:56.960 the macabre

01:06:58.580 expression

01:06:59.340 of that

01:06:59.840 that is

01:07:00.280 Donald Trump

01:07:01.320 is

01:07:02.540 your concerns

01:07:05.100 about it

01:07:05.600 many of them

01:07:06.300 in my opinion

01:07:06.860 are completely

01:07:07.380 legitimate

01:07:07.860 but

01:07:09.060 someone has

01:07:11.320 to say

01:07:11.860 we're not

01:07:12.520 we're not

01:07:13.040 gonna

01:07:13.260 we're not

01:07:13.700 gonna roll

01:07:14.100 over and

01:07:14.500 die

01:07:14.700 we are

01:07:15.600 the most

01:07:16.100 powerful

01:07:16.500 civilization

01:07:17.200 in the history

01:07:17.820 of the world

01:07:18.340 and would

01:07:18.940 quite like

01:07:19.420 to stay

01:07:19.760 that way

01:07:20.140 please

01:07:20.420 thank you

01:07:20.760 very much

01:07:21.220 right

01:07:21.640 someone has

01:07:22.320 to say

01:07:22.600 that

01:07:22.820 someone has

01:07:23.820 to say

01:07:24.100 that

01:07:24.340 and

01:07:25.100 if

01:07:26.280 no one

01:07:27.160 is willing

01:07:27.440 to stand

01:07:27.820 up for

01:07:28.060 that

01:07:28.180 Andrew

01:07:28.460 people

01:07:29.180 like you

01:07:29.680 and people

01:07:30.220 like me

01:07:30.660 are not

01:07:31.020 going to

01:07:31.180 be very

01:07:31.460 comfortable

01:07:31.880 in the

01:07:32.820 foreseeable

01:07:33.240 future

01:07:33.560 so

01:07:33.880 I

01:07:34.620 understand

01:07:35.060 all of

01:07:35.700 that

01:07:35.980 but

01:07:36.520 you know

01:07:38.320 the West

01:07:38.860 is only

01:07:39.240 great

01:07:39.560 as long

01:07:39.980 as it's

01:07:40.300 willing

01:07:40.500 to be

01:07:40.820 great

01:07:41.120 yeah

01:07:41.720 the question

01:07:42.240 is

01:07:42.560 whether

01:07:43.260 the championing

01:07:44.740 of

01:07:45.080 the West

01:07:46.140 as

01:07:46.500 Trump

01:07:47.420 understood

01:07:47.760 is

01:07:48.100 really

01:07:48.480 a championing

01:07:49.500 of the West

01:07:49.960 as

01:07:50.360 Reagan

01:07:50.880 understood

01:07:51.280 it

01:07:51.500 for

01:07:51.660 example

01:07:51.840 probably

01:07:52.040 not

01:07:52.360 very

01:07:52.740 very

01:07:52.940 different

01:07:53.360 and

01:07:55.140 I

01:07:56.300 do

01:07:56.960 think

01:07:57.280 in fact

01:07:57.640 that

01:07:57.780 what's

01:07:58.040 happened

01:07:58.360 is

01:07:58.820 that

01:07:59.120 we're

01:07:59.820 sort

01:08:00.020 of

01:08:00.180 becoming

01:08:00.980 more

01:08:01.340 of a

01:08:01.540 late

01:08:01.680 19th

01:08:02.040 century

01:08:02.300 model

01:08:02.560 in

01:08:02.720 America

01:08:03.000 where

01:08:03.280 the

01:08:03.460 natural

01:08:03.940 position

01:08:05.220 certainly

01:08:06.300 in terms

01:08:06.520 of foreign

01:08:06.880 policy

01:08:07.420 is

01:08:08.580 stay out

01:08:09.780 to some

01:08:10.280 extent

01:08:10.620 we like

01:08:11.420 our

01:08:11.620 place

01:08:12.000 here

01:08:12.200 we

01:08:13.380 escaped

01:08:13.860 all that

01:08:14.220 shit

01:08:14.420 we don't

01:08:14.840 want to

01:08:15.060 go back

01:08:15.420 into

01:08:15.680 it

01:08:15.920 the

01:08:16.680 natural

01:08:17.020 but that

01:08:17.320 was the

01:08:17.720 Republican

01:08:18.140 party

01:08:18.580 is the

01:08:18.940 natural

01:08:19.340 party

01:08:19.720 of

01:08:19.860 isolationism

01:08:20.520 if you

01:08:20.780 want to

01:08:21.020 use a

01:08:21.340 pejorative

01:08:22.060 term

01:08:22.400 but you

01:08:23.300 might call

01:08:23.660 it just

01:08:23.900 Americanism

01:08:24.680 but we

01:08:25.340 escaped history

01:08:26.160 we don't

01:08:26.540 want to have

01:08:26.900 to reenact

01:08:27.840 it

01:08:28.040 we certainly

01:08:28.700 don't see

01:08:29.240 the point

01:08:29.820 from the

01:08:31.040 middle of

01:08:31.660 Colorado

01:08:32.340 of why we

01:08:33.040 have to

01:08:33.780 expend

01:08:34.300 possibly risk

01:08:35.200 the survival

01:08:35.720 of the earth

01:08:36.240 over the

01:08:36.660 integrity of

01:08:37.260 the island

01:08:37.780 of Taiwan

01:08:38.520 God

01:08:39.980 God knows

01:08:40.180 how far

01:08:40.640 away

01:08:40.940 which was

01:08:41.500 always part

01:08:42.020 of China

01:08:42.380 anyway

01:08:42.840 that's

01:08:43.980 going to

01:08:44.160 be a

01:08:44.460 breaking

01:08:44.700 point

01:08:45.080 so

01:08:45.280 but

01:08:45.500 that's

01:08:47.120 quite

01:08:47.280 because

01:08:47.640 once the

01:08:48.240 Cold War

01:08:48.520 was done

01:08:48.880 once the

01:08:49.340 great

01:08:49.580 ideological

01:08:50.020 enemies

01:08:50.460 of Nazism

01:08:51.040 communism

01:08:51.460 were defeated

01:08:52.040 the more

01:08:52.940 natural

01:08:53.620 interests

01:08:55.060 of a

01:08:55.460 great

01:08:55.680 continental

01:08:56.060 power

01:08:56.680 over here

01:08:58.100 will

01:08:59.460 assert

01:08:59.860 itself

01:09:00.320 so in

01:09:01.380 some

01:09:01.620 ways I

01:09:01.960 think

01:09:02.220 that

01:09:03.420 element

01:09:03.740 the

01:09:03.880 neoconservative

01:09:04.720 remake the

01:09:05.620 world for

01:09:06.100 democracy

01:09:06.540 stuff

01:09:06.900 the Wilsonian

01:09:07.600 stuff

01:09:08.000 that's

01:09:08.580 in

01:09:08.680 retreat

01:09:09.080 but

01:09:10.420 that's

01:09:11.060 just one

01:09:11.460 kind of

01:09:11.840 Americanism

01:09:12.440 this is

01:09:13.120 another

01:09:13.420 completely

01:09:14.580 more

01:09:15.700 rational

01:09:17.080 Americanism

01:09:18.460 I think

01:09:18.960 if you

01:09:22.240 just look

01:09:22.540 at the

01:09:22.700 geography

01:09:23.020 and if

01:09:23.280 you look

01:09:23.480 at the

01:09:24.000 economics

01:09:24.700 it's

01:09:26.000 natural

01:09:26.360 for

01:09:26.520 America

01:09:26.820 to be

01:09:27.280 a

01:09:28.060 distant

01:09:28.940 power

01:09:29.300 that

01:09:29.520 balances

01:09:30.220 other

01:09:30.500 powers

01:09:30.880 rather than

01:09:31.300 running

01:09:31.740 the whole

01:09:32.080 fucking

01:09:32.360 place

01:09:32.780 and I

01:09:33.740 think

01:09:33.900 that

01:09:34.080 will

01:09:34.380 assert

01:09:35.180 itself

01:09:35.620 but I

01:09:37.680 also

01:09:37.880 don't

01:09:38.100 I mean

01:09:38.340 is it

01:09:38.620 true

01:09:38.880 really

01:09:39.120 about

01:09:39.320 Britain

01:09:39.540 everyone's

01:09:39.920 given up

01:09:40.320 I mean

01:09:40.720 there is

01:09:41.440 a sense

01:09:41.820 in which

01:09:42.060 Britain

01:09:42.280 will never

01:09:42.720 could never

01:09:43.240 be what

01:09:43.700 it was

01:09:44.040 I mean

01:09:44.280 that

01:09:44.460 there's

01:09:44.920 a point

01:09:45.260 I mean

01:09:45.460 Churchill

01:09:45.960 kind of

01:09:47.300 fucked with

01:09:47.920 us

01:09:48.180 with the

01:09:48.920 greatest

01:09:49.160 speech

01:09:49.500 ever

01:09:49.800 if the

01:09:51.500 British

01:09:51.660 time

01:09:51.780 would

01:09:51.900 last

01:09:52.120 a

01:09:52.260 thousand

01:09:52.660 years

01:09:53.080 this

01:09:53.340 was

01:09:53.980 their

01:09:54.180 finest

01:09:54.480 hour

01:09:54.680 I

01:09:55.040 grew up

01:09:55.360 being

01:09:55.480 told

01:09:55.720 that

01:09:55.840 the

01:09:55.980 finest

01:09:56.460 hour

01:09:56.880 of my

01:09:57.280 country

01:09:57.620 was

01:09:58.200 already

01:09:58.500 passed

01:09:58.940 and I

01:10:00.540 should

01:10:00.680 be

01:10:00.840 proud

01:10:01.140 of

01:10:01.300 that

01:10:01.540 and there

01:10:02.540 was this

01:10:02.840 sense

01:10:03.060 in the

01:10:03.280 second

01:10:03.460 world

01:10:03.680 war

01:10:03.940 that

01:10:04.260 we

01:10:05.500 kind

01:10:05.840 of

01:10:05.980 sacrificed

01:10:06.540 ourselves

01:10:07.020 for the

01:10:07.480 greater

01:10:07.700 good

01:10:08.080 as it

01:10:08.320 were

01:10:08.580 of the

01:10:10.220 world

01:10:10.560 and of

01:10:11.020 democratic

01:10:12.020 values

01:10:12.560 and of

01:10:13.040 resistance

01:10:13.400 to

01:10:13.720 totalitarianism

01:10:14.680 not entirely

01:10:16.080 untrue

01:10:16.600 to some

01:10:17.140 extent

01:10:17.540 but there's

01:10:19.240 no way

01:10:19.860 Britain

01:10:21.020 could be

01:10:21.660 the country

01:10:22.380 it was

01:10:22.700 in the

01:10:22.920 19th

01:10:23.260 century

01:10:23.480 there's

01:10:23.680 no way

01:10:23.920 even

01:10:24.100 conceive

01:10:24.700 of being

01:10:25.400 such a

01:10:25.840 thing

01:10:25.960 of

01:10:26.120 course

01:10:26.480 but I

01:10:26.960 was going

01:10:27.260 to say

01:10:27.640 Andrew

01:10:28.000 but hang

01:10:28.480 on

01:10:28.660 you came

01:10:29.240 of age

01:10:29.600 in the

01:10:29.840 80s

01:10:30.280 and in

01:10:30.680 the early

01:10:31.020 90s

01:10:31.580 you're a

01:10:32.020 child of

01:10:32.440 Thatcher

01:10:32.820 Britain was

01:10:33.520 booming

01:10:34.000 the city

01:10:35.040 loads of

01:10:35.800 money

01:10:36.080 we were

01:10:36.800 successful

01:10:37.420 we were

01:10:37.980 we were

01:10:38.420 a powerhouse

01:10:39.260 well you

01:10:40.620 not quite

01:10:43.180 I mean

01:10:43.680 there was

01:10:44.720 there was

01:10:45.260 a

01:10:45.420 it was more

01:10:46.140 of the

01:10:46.400 collapse

01:10:46.880 of the

01:10:47.180 previous

01:10:47.460 regime

01:10:47.920 and then

01:10:48.780 the rebooting

01:10:49.420 of it

01:10:49.700 that I

01:10:49.960 was very

01:10:50.500 much in

01:10:50.920 favor of

01:10:51.460 and

01:10:51.960 supported

01:10:52.860 but

01:10:54.580 and so

01:10:56.400 I agree

01:10:56.760 with that

01:10:57.140 I don't

01:10:58.260 I do

01:10:59.180 think that

01:10:59.740 some of

01:11:00.540 the massive

01:11:01.080 social economic

01:11:02.160 quality that

01:11:02.920 has resulted

01:11:03.720 from that

01:11:04.260 and also

01:11:05.300 mass immigration

01:11:06.020 has made

01:11:06.700 economic policy

01:11:07.820 more complicated

01:11:08.440 and difficult

01:11:08.940 in terms of

01:11:10.100 the conservatives

01:11:10.760 helping more

01:11:11.720 I mean

01:11:12.200 Thatcher was

01:11:12.640 her biggest

01:11:13.700 base of support

01:11:14.340 were people

01:11:14.740 selling their

01:11:15.280 council houses

01:11:15.900 for their own

01:11:16.740 property

01:11:17.120 and that's

01:11:17.520 how she

01:11:18.080 and she

01:11:19.020 was a

01:11:19.380 middle class

01:11:19.940 lower middle

01:11:20.420 class

01:11:20.840 appealing

01:11:21.640 person

01:11:22.200 so

01:11:24.040 but

01:11:26.900 and we

01:11:28.920 it's still

01:11:29.780 possible

01:11:30.280 I think

01:11:30.600 it's still

01:11:31.140 possible

01:11:31.500 isn't Brexit

01:11:32.340 really a decision

01:11:33.040 by the British

01:11:33.580 that they do

01:11:34.260 have a future

01:11:34.700 by themselves

01:11:35.340 I don't know

01:11:36.760 man we live

01:11:37.200 in a country

01:11:37.620 where more

01:11:38.360 than half

01:11:38.720 the population

01:11:39.360 get more

01:11:39.920 in benefits

01:11:40.460 than they

01:11:40.800 pay in tax

01:11:41.440 how are you

01:11:42.640 going to

01:11:43.100 how are you

01:11:43.440 going to

01:11:43.620 change that

01:11:43.980 and also

01:11:44.460 the tax

01:11:45.660 system

01:11:46.000 and the way

01:11:46.420 and the

01:11:47.140 cultural

01:11:47.500 attitudes

01:11:47.960 are such

01:11:48.420 that being

01:11:49.760 aspirational

01:11:51.040 is punished

01:11:52.140 or at least

01:11:53.320 disincentivized

01:11:54.480 I sort of

01:11:54.800 hoped that

01:11:55.200 had changed

01:11:55.820 yeah it's

01:11:56.700 changed for the

01:11:57.080 worse since

01:11:57.680 you were there

01:11:58.060 I think

01:11:58.440 honestly

01:11:58.900 there was a

01:11:59.420 period in the

01:11:59.800 80s and 90s

01:12:00.360 where it was

01:12:00.760 more of a

01:12:01.740 a defense of

01:12:04.400 aggression and

01:12:05.500 enterprise and

01:12:07.360 free markets

01:12:08.960 right

01:12:09.520 and now

01:12:10.560 if you look

01:12:11.460 at the polls

01:12:12.260 that sort of

01:12:13.940 at least economic

01:12:14.820 Thatcherism

01:12:15.660 represents about

01:12:17.360 6% of the public

01:12:18.380 well partly because

01:12:19.440 it was a victim

01:12:20.980 of its own success

01:12:22.020 in some respects

01:12:22.980 and people

01:12:24.440 acknowledge that

01:12:25.100 things change

01:12:25.720 and it's not like

01:12:26.820 a conservative

01:12:27.340 doesn't have a

01:12:28.020 permanent ideology

01:12:28.960 of free markets

01:12:29.680 it's free markets

01:12:30.940 as a function of

01:12:31.640 a political society

01:12:32.780 which Thatcher did

01:12:34.140 but you should have

01:12:34.720 grown up

01:12:35.040 I mean I was also

01:12:35.900 growing up in the

01:12:36.720 70s as it were

01:12:37.640 I mean the 70s

01:12:40.140 as a kid you learn

01:12:44.400 about your country

01:12:45.020 you're walking around

01:12:45.540 you see that every

01:12:46.340 new building is

01:12:47.040 shittier than every

01:12:47.720 big city

01:12:48.360 by a mile

01:12:49.900 no one gives a

01:12:51.720 shit

01:12:51.840 the country's

01:12:52.440 shut down for

01:12:53.500 four days of the

01:12:54.380 week with no

01:12:55.340 electricity

01:12:55.820 I mean the whole

01:12:56.740 place was just

01:12:57.420 a shambles

01:12:58.260 but again I think

01:13:01.820 you know not to

01:13:02.960 defend Britain but

01:13:03.800 to go from being

01:13:06.840 the greatest global

01:13:07.980 empire to being a

01:13:09.400 middle-sized economy

01:13:10.820 in the G7

01:13:12.260 I think the Brits

01:13:14.180 have actually been

01:13:14.680 psychologically quite

01:13:15.460 good at handling that

01:13:16.500 compared to the way

01:13:17.760 other countries might

01:13:18.660 deal with their

01:13:19.560 decline in such a

01:13:21.640 way and I think it

01:13:23.440 shows a tenaciousness

01:13:25.880 and also a sense of

01:13:27.900 the English nation

01:13:28.720 and the British nation

01:13:29.640 existed long before

01:13:31.260 empire

01:13:31.680 it was no less

01:13:34.620 something to be proud

01:13:37.140 of under Elizabeth

01:13:38.240 the first than under

01:13:39.160 Victoria and that we

01:13:41.400 have our own resources

01:13:42.220 and our own cultural

01:13:43.740 resources I just think

01:13:45.640 that when you both

01:13:46.460 lose power

01:13:47.140 internationally and

01:13:47.920 then kind of tear up

01:13:49.880 your own cultural

01:13:50.640 traditions at the same

01:13:51.640 time you're going to

01:13:53.040 create a very unhappy

01:13:55.180 listless meaningless

01:13:56.480 civic experience and

01:13:59.620 that's what we have to

01:14:00.700 be concerned about and

01:14:01.980 the experience with other

01:14:02.620 people trying to fill with

01:14:03.560 meaning and patriotism

01:14:07.600 as a tribal entities as

01:14:09.180 an expression of

01:14:09.900 tribalism is a lot

01:14:11.380 healthier than identity

01:14:13.880 politics as an expression

01:14:15.020 of tribalism because the

01:14:16.000 one brings together the

01:14:16.940 other tears us apart

01:14:17.840 the difficulty we have is

01:14:19.620 it's very difficult to be

01:14:20.820 patriotic and I'm

01:14:21.640 patriotic about Britain I

01:14:22.800 truly am it's very

01:14:24.220 difficult to be patriotic

01:14:25.460 about a country whose

01:14:26.340 values you are not able

01:14:27.680 or allowed to define and

01:14:30.000 that's where we are that's

01:14:31.840 if you walk up to a

01:14:33.380 random person in the

01:14:34.540 British street and ask

01:14:35.540 them what are British

01:14:36.680 values they will not be

01:14:38.240 able to say provided they

01:14:39.600 don't run away at the

01:14:40.380 question itself and that's

01:14:42.580 where we are now doesn't

01:14:43.920 mean I don't love Britain

01:14:44.700 I do but one of the

01:14:47.420 most influential essays I

01:14:48.480 read growing up was the

01:14:49.380 lion and the unicorn by

01:14:50.720 Orwell and and and which

01:14:53.260 was also repackaged as

01:14:54.400 was it my country whatever

01:14:57.020 because it was a socialist

01:15:00.460 celebration of the

01:15:03.440 particulars of Englishness

01:15:04.840 and English culture and

01:15:05.820 English life that was

01:15:07.600 conveyed with such warmth

01:15:08.920 and love even in its stern

01:15:11.740 criticisms that it sort of it

01:15:13.700 was the first thing I read

01:15:14.720 as a kid that talked about

01:15:16.040 Englishness or what the

01:15:17.020 English nation could be or

01:15:18.660 what its values ultimately

01:15:19.820 were and if you would and

01:15:22.420 so it came down to heavy

01:15:23.520 currency ugly advertising

01:15:26.340 love of gardens all sorts of

01:15:30.000 things he noted that you even

01:15:32.420 sense of humor so I would say

01:15:35.000 if you asked me that I would

01:15:35.840 say common sense decency

01:15:38.900 civility

01:15:40.580 pragmatism

01:15:42.900 prickly defense of one's own

01:15:48.120 autonomy and freedom it's still

01:15:50.000 greater I think in England than

01:15:51.080 many other places

01:15:51.960 oh for sure

01:15:53.320 you know it takes a lot to kill

01:15:56.380 a culture

01:15:56.840 we're definitely definitely putting

01:15:59.880 that to the test

01:16:00.680 but um I always have faith in

01:16:04.180 your average we can also get

01:16:05.320 lost because we're in educated

01:16:06.660 circles and we you don't see

01:16:08.560 the very natural patriotism

01:16:10.500 that exists at a lower level

01:16:12.660 and this is true of the

01:16:14.440 intellectuals forever as Orwell

01:16:15.620 was constantly telling us

01:16:17.740 um I I don't see my life as

01:16:20.760 one in which I rejected Britain

01:16:22.160 for America because I love both

01:16:25.140 places um I just think I

01:16:27.580 personally was temperamentally

01:16:29.480 much more likely to be happy

01:16:32.400 here

01:16:32.680 um and I think that has proven

01:16:36.140 to be the case although you

01:16:37.160 never you never know

01:16:38.420 um I wanted to be doing things

01:16:42.120 because I of what they were as

01:16:43.940 opposed to proving to that

01:16:45.400 person I wasn't this person this

01:16:46.860 avoiding that trap all those

01:16:50.520 social signals that are that

01:16:52.020 are sending into your brain

01:16:53.300 telling you to do things and I

01:16:54.260 was like fuck that shit what I

01:16:56.020 want to do how do I want to

01:16:57.680 express myself and I've done

01:16:58.660 that and the country has has

01:17:01.160 has been incredibly generous to

01:17:04.980 me in pro I mean I say that

01:17:06.240 given they tried to keep me out

01:17:07.900 for 19 years because I was

01:17:09.000 HIV positive that's the other

01:17:10.180 part of this it's also crazy ass

01:17:13.620 thing um it has these bizarre

01:17:16.020 obsessions sometimes um I mean

01:17:18.900 it's the you know it's a country

01:17:20.180 that gave us this incredible

01:17:22.080 burst of freedom but also the

01:17:24.040 Hollywood blacklist the Salem witch

01:17:26.280 trials uh the lavender uh menace

01:17:29.700 of the 50s um it has these

01:17:32.240 convulsions it's it it this

01:17:35.380 wonderful country of freedom

01:17:36.840 constitution actually put in its

01:17:38.860 constitution you could not drink

01:17:41.040 alcohol is it does a country ever

01:17:44.100 done anything that insane before

01:17:45.700 since in its constitution it wasn't

01:17:48.680 it wouldn't even allow localities to

01:17:50.540 have I mean when you think about

01:17:52.540 our debates about trans health care

01:17:53.920 you realize it's absolutely

01:17:54.660 completely trivial compared to

01:17:56.040 what was going on before the

01:17:57.660 demand of the American the

01:17:59.780 American Protestant establishment

01:18:01.180 to purify the people is constant

01:18:03.380 and in some ways wokeness should be

01:18:05.500 better understood as the final

01:18:07.460 manifestation of this liberal

01:18:08.940 Protestant uh ethic of moral

01:18:11.400 improvement for people uh in other

01:18:13.240 words Harvard is now gone back to

01:18:15.240 its roots as the divinity school

01:18:16.740 teaching the elite how to better

01:18:19.280 represent the religion that they

01:18:20.700 down to the words they use the way

01:18:23.720 they date all of it is it's it's

01:18:26.000 basically a reincarnation of the old

01:18:27.900 American Puritanism um and that

01:18:30.840 gives wokeness a lot of its force

01:18:33.120 it's it's it's cultural force I mean

01:18:37.140 we call it the great awokening it's

01:18:39.160 because there have been great

01:18:40.140 awakenings um and if you think

01:18:42.840 America's always going to have these

01:18:44.040 semi-religious revivals but in the

01:18:45.480 21st century it's had a collapse of

01:18:46.880 actual formal and organized religion

01:18:48.580 it's not so surprising it might take a

01:18:50.320 form like this the disgust etched into

01:18:53.040 your face or the idea that people

01:18:54.400 should not be allowed to drink

01:18:55.380 alcohol proofs to me you're still a

01:18:56.920 Brit oh absolutely even though I

01:18:58.520 don't I'm a complete stoner I don't

01:19:00.260 drink at all I barely drink at all um

01:19:02.180 but yeah um a country that allows

01:19:05.200 people to get drunk is okay by me I

01:19:07.460 mean it this is what I loved about

01:19:08.820 Boris in so many ways is that element

01:19:10.440 of Englishness uh I mean it is that

01:19:13.320 you know the consequences of you know

01:19:15.160 basically a country of functional

01:19:17.880 alcoholics uh it is by the way when

01:19:20.520 you go over there that's the first

01:19:21.560 thing that I can't I mean within a

01:19:23.180 day I can't possibly keep up yeah how

01:19:25.460 on earth do you drink lunchtime

01:19:27.200 after I have to work it's like what

01:19:29.900 the hell I can't do it that's how you

01:19:33.300 know you've become an American well it's

01:19:35.340 how yeah yeah some of the most he's

01:19:37.960 both as he told us he loves both

01:19:39.600 countries Andrew we will wrap up with

01:19:42.140 you there what a varied and brilliant

01:19:44.640 conversation with you it's uh great to

01:19:46.720 have you back on the show uh as always

01:19:49.020 we're going to do some questions from

01:19:50.860 our local supporters that only they

01:19:52.540 will get to see the answers to but

01:19:54.220 before we do our final question is

01:19:55.820 always the same which is what's the

01:19:57.320 one thing we're not talking about as

01:19:59.120 a society that you think we really

01:20:00.460 should be

01:20:00.860 circumcision

01:20:03.560 uh in America about half infant boys

01:20:09.380 a little more than that are

01:20:10.500 automatically have the dicks clipped

01:20:13.420 uh we're having this ginormous debate

01:20:16.940 about whether children can consent to

01:20:19.380 irreversible changes uh in which we are

01:20:22.460 desperately and this this occurs again

01:20:25.320 it's not people selecting in for

01:20:27.620 religious reasons of some sort it is it

01:20:29.660 is a it is a way in which hospitals lie

01:20:33.000 to parents and tell them they need to do

01:20:34.560 this and secondly make money in all the

01:20:36.660 labor and delivery services that they can

01:20:38.600 have to and it's gross it's a it's a it's

01:20:42.420 a it's a bot an active invasion of

01:20:45.420 bodily integrity and the weird thing is

01:20:47.060 in this country that when you raise that

01:20:49.160 point and i don't raise it although i'm

01:20:50.960 just bringing it up to be a little

01:20:52.200 provocative here but oh i agree with you

01:20:53.960 people people are appalled and i would

01:20:55.460 say that they get really really defensive

01:20:57.760 um if i call someone's dick mutilated but

01:21:01.940 it is mutilated at some level um no one

01:21:04.920 wants to hear about their own that they

01:21:06.560 they certainly don't want to admit that

01:21:08.240 they did something bad to their kid or

01:21:10.160 that they themselves have something wrong

01:21:11.480 with them so there's this pushback it's

01:21:13.140 slowly declining um that's a rather

01:21:15.260 trivial uh answer to that question but

01:21:17.160 it's we've talked about so much um that

01:21:19.880 maybe a little trivial thing like that um

01:21:22.500 is worth noting

01:21:23.980 yeah i was gonna say do you would you

01:21:26.940 want to ask another question no no no i'm

01:21:29.540 done with andrew let's let uh no what i

01:21:33.320 was gonna say is andrew it's been a

01:21:34.820 pleasure having you back i recommend

01:21:36.480 everyone read the weekly dish please

01:21:38.480 subscribe to the weekly subscribe to

01:21:40.780 the way you have to now to read it it's

01:21:42.440 all paywall as far as i can tell no it's

01:21:44.260 not it's not it's not you can get the

01:21:46.280 column every week and a bunch of other

01:21:47.580 little things for free and you can get

01:21:50.000 an hour of the podcast for free um you

01:21:53.000 just the last half hour you have to pay

01:21:54.300 a little bit for and full a range of

01:21:57.100 things that the dish offers you have to

01:21:58.260 pay something fantastic well i really

01:22:00.220 recommend everybody do that follow you

01:22:01.820 on twitter etc andrew we're gonna take

01:22:04.040 you over to locals uh that camera i think

01:22:06.480 join us on locals head on over there

01:22:08.680 we're gonna ask you bonus questions to

01:22:10.140 andrew

01:22:10.640 do you believe that u.s government

01:22:13.660 agencies have gone too far in their

01:22:15.720 quest to eliminate so-called

01:22:17.160 disinformation misinformation and

01:22:19.100 malinformation i'd love to know your

01:22:21.100 thoughts about matt taibbi's twitter

01:22:22.540 files reporting

01:22:28.260 you

01:22:30.320 you

01:22:32.220 you

01:22:34.220 you

01:22:36.220 you

01:22:38.220 you

01:22:40.220 you

01:22:42.220 you

TRIGGERnometry - June 14, 2023

Andrew Sullivan： “America Is on the Edge of Violence”

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