TRIGGERnometry - ＂Anti-Racism Training Doesn't Work＂ - Dr Karlyn Borysenko

00:00:00.100 Compliance moves fast, and Moody's can help organizations move even faster,

00:00:04.160 leveraging AI to help you gain quicker insights and reduce bottlenecks.

00:00:07.680 Let Moody's help your organization navigate change with confidence.

00:00:10.800 Visit moody's.com slash kyc slash ai dash study to discover how.

00:00:19.260 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:22.980 I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:24.500 I'm Constantine Kishin.

00:00:26.000 And this is the show for you if you want honest conversation.

00:00:30.000 conversations with fascinating people. Our terrific guest today is an organizational

00:00:35.240 psychologist and an author, Dr. Karlyn Borisenko. Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:40.000 Thank you so much for having me. Excited to be here.

00:00:42.580 Oh, it's great to have you. Listen, before we get in to the conversation, for anyone who doesn't

00:00:46.780 know who you are, just tell everybody who are you, how are you, where you are, what has been

00:00:51.200 your journey to the problematic seat in which you find yourself now?

00:00:54.480 Yeah, so I'm an organizational psychologist and essentially that means is I work with

00:00:59.740 businesses all over the world to help create better working environments, things like that.

00:01:03.660 And that was a space I had been playing in since about 2012 until I had the, well, some would say

00:01:10.340 fortune, some would say misfortune of going to a Trump rally as a Democrat of 20 years. And I had

00:01:17.020 no idea really what I was going to find, but I live in New Hampshire in the States. And so I had

00:01:21.900 seen all of the Democratic candidates for president at some point or another in person because we're

00:01:26.720 very spoiled. And Donald Trump came to town and I decided to go to a Trump rally and write about

00:01:31.540 my experiences. And the article kind of went viral on the internet, which is how I got thrust

00:01:36.340 into the problematic space rather quickly and unexpectedly. Well, we'll get onto that. We'll

00:01:43.160 get onto the political stuff. But actually, Francis and I wanted to chat to you about the

00:01:47.280 workspace stuff for a bit, which is, you know, an area of expertise that we don't often cover.

00:01:51.500 go ahead, Francis. No, absolutely. So what we're seeing at the moment because of COVID and the

00:01:57.900 COVID and Corona and all the rest of it is the way we work fundamentally change almost overnight.

00:02:05.600 So could you explain a little bit to us about how the ways we've worked have changed? And what are

00:02:12.100 the implications do you think about these changes and these rapid changes we're experiencing?

00:02:16.820 Yeah. So, I mean, a lot to unpack there, but I think the first thing was just the absolute shock of how quickly work had to change. And when you think about the elements that people need psychologically to be set up for success at work, it starts at a very basic level of things that people don't even think about.

00:02:34.760 Like, do I have a desk that's not broken to sit at?

00:02:38.760 Do I have a lamp in my office that is not going to give me a headache?

00:02:42.060 Do I have a chair that's not going to give me back problems?

00:02:45.380 Do I have a printer?

00:02:46.180 Do I have a fax machine?

00:02:47.100 Do I have all these office supplies?

00:02:48.840 These, when you're in the workplace, seem like a no-brainer.

00:02:51.700 We don't even consider them.

00:02:53.020 But when all of a sudden you have to take your workforce and move everyone home and

00:02:58.200 no one has an office set up and no one knows what that means and half the office knows

00:03:02.860 how to use things like Zoom and half the office has no idea what's going on. It creates instantly

00:03:07.960 a lot of problems and consternation and anxiety that's frankly even worse than when people are

00:03:13.820 afraid of losing their jobs, which was the second element that was added on top of it. Because not

00:03:19.340 only are all of a sudden everyone leaving and going home, but there's also fear of who's going

00:03:25.460 to lose their job next with these mass layoffs, these furloughs. No one really knows how a lot

00:03:29.960 of businesses are going to fare. And so that's the next level of psychological safety that was

00:03:35.340 inhibited when everything first started. Now, as things kind of calmed down and people started to

00:03:40.760 settle into what this was going to be, it actually gets worse in a little bit of a nefarious way

00:03:46.920 because now people are spending all day on Zoom or all day on WebEx or Teams or whatever tool

00:03:52.360 they happen to be using. And at least with the clients that I've worked with, the last couple

00:03:57.840 months have been incredibly painful for them in terms of using technology to communicate

00:04:03.000 to the point because they just get sick of it.

00:04:04.800 They get tired of being on their computer all day.

00:04:07.780 And so what happens is at that point, team communication starts to break down simply

00:04:13.100 because no one wants to do it.

00:04:15.020 And when we're looking at what are the core attributes of highly functioning, highly resilient

00:04:20.200 teams, the number one thing that says highly resilient teams apart from every other type

00:04:25.040 is psychological safety.

00:04:27.140 They trust each other.

00:04:28.220 They have each other's backs.

00:04:29.560 They're communicating openly.

00:04:30.940 They're able to have productive conflict.

00:04:33.120 Every single one of these attributes is inhibited when we're going to a full-time work-at-home

00:04:39.660 scenario.

00:04:40.900 And so that's what a lot of teams are managing through right now.

00:04:43.500 People are just sick of it.

00:04:44.460 They want to go back to the office.

00:04:45.540 Well, some want to go back to the office, and then some are scared of going back to

00:04:48.740 the office because I'm going to go, I'm going to catch the virus and die if I go back to

00:04:52.040 the office.

00:04:52.440 And so it is a very tough place for organizations to be in. And, you know, I actually have not seen many that are handling it very well, because we're talking about up and down the leadership chain. We're having all these problems that are coming up with communication and trust and just being worn out, being burnt out.

00:05:13.920 And Carlin, a lot of people are saying that what we're seeing now is the death of the office in real time.

00:05:20.040 This idea that we commute 40 minutes to an hour to an hour and a half to go somewhere to go and then sit at a desk for eight hours and then commute an hour and a half back.

00:05:28.380 That is an obsolete idea. Do you agree with that or do you think the answer is slightly more nuanced?

00:05:32.680 I think it's much more nuanced than that. I think the reality is that we're talking about phasing out the office environment.

00:05:39.300 It is a lot easier to do that at tech companies like Twitter or Facebook than it is at places like, you know, an insurance company or, you know, I have this one client that they make socks.

00:05:52.640 And so, I mean, there have to be people there.

00:05:54.600 I have clients that are credit unions.

00:05:57.020 While there have to be people in the banks, we have to be able to go to the bank.

00:06:00.780 And so it does become a much more nuanced discussion.

00:06:03.280 And frankly, it's not beneficial to phase out the office.

00:06:07.080 We need to have these face-to-face human interactions.

00:06:11.080 Otherwise, we literally forget that our co-workers are human, right?

00:06:15.660 And then you have all these interpersonal problems popping up.

00:06:18.040 So not only do I think this is not the death of the traditional office, I think that's

00:06:21.940 a little premature.

00:06:23.000 I think it's not even ideal for the traditional office to die off.

00:06:27.320 It's really interesting that you make that point, because Francis and I were talking

00:06:30.700 just before we started this conversation, which we're already really enjoying and look

00:06:34.660 forward to continuing.

00:06:35.640 but I was saying to him, like, we need to get back into the studio. You know, we're having

00:06:40.340 these brilliant guests, you, Scott Adams, Brett Weinstein, Ben, you know, so many people that we

00:06:46.140 love talking to, but I just watched one of our interviews done in studio. And I just feel like

00:06:51.320 it's a whole different thing, you know, and it's a whole different thing to watch. It's a whole

00:06:56.020 different thing to be part of. It's a whole different thing to be interviewed in that way.

00:07:00.320 I'm not sure that this excitement about moving back, moving into this kind of online space

00:07:07.760 entirely is going to work.

00:07:09.220 And I suspect the point you make about forgetting that other people are human will tie into

00:07:15.080 the political stuff we talk about later.

00:07:16.820 But I imagine that some of the divisiveness we've seen politically and psychologically

00:07:21.860 recently is a big product of that, wouldn't you say?

00:07:24.420 I absolutely agree.

00:07:25.900 And then you add on to it.

00:07:27.040 Hang on, I'll even do this.

00:07:28.240 then you add onto it this. We're literally covering our faces. We're covering the thing

00:07:33.180 that we use to express our emotions. I mean, this is like, this is a perfect storm, which is going

00:07:39.580 to create a really difficult scenarios for teams to function in the workplace. But also, I mean,

00:07:45.240 just looking out more broadly, if we look at all the Karens attacking people in the stores for not 1.00

00:07:50.580 wearing a mask, I mean, we have started to dehumanize each other. And it's very concerning

00:07:55.000 to me. It's very concerning, not only in the workplace. And I believe that work is important

00:07:58.760 because it gives people a purpose. It gives people a place to focus their energy. Fundamentally,

00:08:03.900 there are really two types of people in the world. There are creators and there are destroyers.

00:08:07.660 And if you're not creating something and focusing your energy in a positive direction, well,

00:08:11.980 then you're going to end up like the SJWs out pulling down statues in the street because they

00:08:16.060 don't have anything else that's more productive to do. And so that's what work gives people.

00:08:20.040 And when workplaces are becoming all about how much time I'm spending on my computer,

00:08:25.740 that becomes a problem.

00:08:26.820 Another factor is that working from home is a different type of environment than going

00:08:32.460 into the office.

00:08:33.300 And it's one that it is very, very easy to lose work-life balance.

00:08:38.380 Because what happens?

00:08:39.460 People kind of roll out of bed.

00:08:40.720 They don't even get dressed or shower.

00:08:42.700 And they just roll right into the office.

00:08:44.820 And oftentimes, you'll find that people don't eat throughout the day.

00:08:48.020 They forget to take breaks.

00:08:49.200 They forget to take walks maybe during lunch. They work way later. They stop going to the gym

00:08:54.960 entirely. And so work-life balance also gets really out of whack and people just become

00:08:59.320 generally a lot more unhealthy, which makes them a lot more consternated when they're in the work

00:09:03.920 environment, which again, only adds to those interpersonal issues. And there's been a lot of

00:09:09.020 people who are saying that actually what we're going to start to see is our cities becoming more

00:09:13.940 and more obsolete when people realize that they can work from home that they don't actually have

00:09:19.400 to be amongst the hustle and the bustle when they're going to be on zoom four days a week

00:09:24.820 what do you reckon about that i i mean i think i i don't know that cities are going to become

00:09:29.840 obsolete i think that there is certainly something to it and i think we're seeing this in the states

00:09:34.560 where people stop living in the cities but certainly there are always ways to commute in

00:09:38.740 I think that, you know, my biggest concern with this entire affair is just the dehumanization that's going on all around.

00:09:47.000 We've got to stop being afraid to be around each other.

00:09:49.260 And whether that's from the virus or it's just we've gotten used to this new normal of working in our houses and never seeing each other.

00:09:57.080 The more that the longer that this continues without some sort of corrective action to try to steer us back to where we were before all this started.

00:10:06.100 I'm becoming increasingly concerned that this really is our normal now.

00:10:11.080 I mean, people keep calling it the new normal.

00:10:12.700 This is our normal.

00:10:13.760 We've been at this now, what, since March?

00:10:15.680 So that's several months.

00:10:17.040 That's more than enough time to develop a habit.

00:10:19.500 And so all the work that we took to get into this scenario, we're now going to have to

00:10:23.980 do the same work to get back out and reclaim a normal where it is common to be around each

00:10:29.820 other and have conversations in person and do work in person.

00:10:32.880 And that's going to be a whole process to get us back there.

00:10:35.200 But Colin, you've just said that this is the new normal and we've become not comfortable but accustomed to being isolated.

00:10:45.020 What effect does that have on the human being and the human mind being isolated, not being used to interacting with people, not used to socializing?

00:10:55.140 AI and risk-related compliance isn't tomorrow's idea, but rather today's edge.

00:10:59.860 Moody's combines advanced AI with one of the most comprehensive data estates, and automated workflows provide faster insight, reduce bottlenecks, and drive more strategic action.

00:11:10.320 Moody's helps banks, corporates, and financial institutions navigate today's challenges and seize tomorrow's opportunities.

00:11:16.700 Stay ahead in an era of exponential risk.

00:11:19.320 Visit moody's.com slash kyc slash ai dash study and get in touch today.

00:11:24.200 Well, I think it makes it incredibly uncomfortable when you are in social situations.

00:11:31.740 I mean, it's kind of roughly akin to, you know, I guess, I suppose being an introvert going to a networking event.

00:11:37.540 Now, it's not as though you can't engage in those social situations if you've gotten used to being alone, but it's going to take a lot more energy to do it.

00:11:46.860 So, you know, we'll think back in olden times when we used to have networking events that we were going to.

00:11:52.240 you know, for an introvert like me, it took a lot to get me out to a networking event. I didn't want

00:11:56.280 to go. I didn't want to be around people I didn't know and be uncomfortable and all this good stuff

00:12:00.020 and have to make chit chat. But I did it because you have to do it. And when you do it, you just

00:12:05.000 get really tired from it, right? It just takes extra energy. And so what people need to realize

00:12:09.540 is that we can still have these human interactions. We can still meet up in person. We can still do

00:12:16.960 these things. But because we have gotten used to the isolation, it's simply going to take more

00:12:21.600 energy. It's going to take more determination to actually see it through. Maybe it's useful to

00:12:27.460 liken it to, you know, going back to the gym when you haven't been there for three months, as I

00:12:32.260 recently had to do when my gym reopened again. And you know it's going to be painful and you don't

00:12:36.940 want to go and you are not looking forward to it, but you know it's good for you. And so you do it

00:12:41.040 anyway. And is it a little bit painful at first? Yes, it absolutely is painful. But once you get

00:12:46.500 over that hump, I mean, maybe it would be helpful for people to visualize, like, wouldn't it be

00:12:50.920 nice to be sitting at a restaurant and have people around me again, or having a conversation in

00:12:55.560 person, if we can think about how it felt to do those things when we really enjoyed them,

00:13:00.880 that'll make it easier for us to get back there. Yeah, it's an interesting point. And when you

00:13:06.120 talk about creators and destroyers, that's something that reminded me, it's actually

00:13:10.400 true of animals as well. Like if you keep a dog at home and you don't give it enough exercise and

00:13:15.400 etc it starts you know chewing stuff and tearing stuff apart and i mean obviously the other thing

00:13:22.980 that's affecting workplaces now in a very big way is the whole conversation about race um people are

00:13:30.000 being required to read certain books and being uh forced to accept certain ideologies as being

00:13:36.500 the truth sent down from from above uh what do you think will be the impact of some of those

00:13:42.060 things on the way that we're having these conversations and the way people relate to

00:13:45.680 each other in the workplace and outside of it. Yeah, I'm actually terrified of what I'm seeing

00:13:50.860 in the workplace in response to George Floyd's death with, you know, certain books, the books

00:13:56.240 that will not be named, being mandated that being mandated out to the workforce. They're actually

00:14:02.940 buying copies of the book in bulk, giving it out to everyone, forming book clubs around these

00:14:07.880 anti-racist ideas, bringing in high dollar value, anti-racist trainers. And by the way, there is

00:14:13.440 absolutely zero evidence that anti-racist training works and has any positive effect on the

00:14:21.320 organization. There's zero evidence in the literature of that, but organizations are

00:14:25.260 spending tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands. We know that the United States government spent

00:14:29.140 $5 million on this training to indoctrinate government employees into anti-racist ideals.

00:14:35.780 This is actually the most terrifying thing to me because fundamentally what this literature says is you as a person do not matter. The only thing that matters is your skin color. And I have to treat you according to your skin color and talk to you according to your skin color.

00:14:51.820 And that's an incredibly disempowering position to be in because not only does it not really give me the ability to communicate with you just as an average person to get what I need, it also is incredibly disempowering to people of color, to be honest.

00:15:10.280 It doesn't give them a whole lot of leeway as well.

00:15:12.400 It actually takes their empowerment away and says, you are at the whim of what the group says.

00:15:18.200 Because those are really the people that feel the most when they speak up.

00:15:21.240 It's not white people like me. It's people of color who speak up and said, I don't want to be infantilized in this way in the workplace. They're the ones that get it the worst. And so I am deeply concerned about the impact of anti-racist training on things like team camaraderie, collaboration, connection, being able to engage in productive conflict.

00:15:40.180 Because every time you engage in conflict, it becomes, what does it become? A microaggression. Every time. And so it's going to start tearing teams apart and really is going to inhibit resiliency and productivity in the work environment.

00:15:55.680 I mean, one of the things we should probably say at this point, just for the low IQ people, is that we're all against racism.

00:16:02.600 This is like a disclaimer. You're nodding that people won't be able to see.

00:16:06.160 Let me make sure that everyone can see this. Three of us, we're all nodding. We're against racism, right?

00:16:11.860 But the point is, what you're talking about is very specific.

00:16:15.840 That did look like brainwashing, mate. I'm going to be honest with you.

00:16:18.640 That's what we do here at Trigonometry. We convince people not to be racist, Francis. Remember, that's the goal of the show.

00:16:24.420 but that's not what people say on twitter but anyway carry on they're very true uh but but

00:16:29.800 the point my point is colin when most people because you're an expert in this and the two of

00:16:34.440 us aren't experts but we've been paying attention let's say and because of what we do most people

00:16:39.100 when they hear anti-racism training like that's a good thing right i mean you want to train people

00:16:44.100 not to be racist right if you can help it that'd be fantastic so when you talk about anti-racism

00:16:50.440 training the indoctrination you're talking about and that it doesn't work just explain to someone

00:16:55.740 who may be less you know aware of everything that's happening what it is that you're talking

00:17:01.220 about what are people being taught what are they being told what are they being told they have to

00:17:05.700 do now etc well i mean it is brilliant branding isn't it for anti-racist training it's very

00:17:11.560 orwellian it's a very orwellian branding because what they're essentially saying is um you you you

00:17:18.380 as an individual do not matter. You are not an individual. I've been telling Francis this for

00:17:23.700 years, you know, and in fact, being, being, being an individual in terms of an anti-racist framework

00:17:32.600 is actually part of a white supremacist culture in organizations, you know, and other components

00:17:37.900 that they're going to teach you as part of the white supremacy are things like meetings or

00:17:42.520 writing things down or having goals or being on time. These are all part of white supremacist

00:17:49.420 culture in organizations that need to be dismantled in anti-racist training.

00:17:55.240 Now, are you exaggerating here? This is what they're actually saying. Meetings are racist.

00:18:00.200 I am 100 percent not exaggerating. In fact, there is a six page document that I have that

00:18:05.600 the city of Seattle was using in their anti-racism training about what is that white

00:18:10.840 supremacy culture is that enumerates every single one of these things, even except expecting a high

00:18:16.500 quality work product, white supremacist. And so, and the problem with this is these trainings come

00:18:22.020 in and they teach you all the ways in which you are a white supremacist at work, but they don't

00:18:27.060 offer alternatives. They don't say, here's what we should do instead. They come in and they say

00:18:31.500 white supremacy bad. And they very literally make you confess your sins if you're a white person, 0.91

00:18:37.680 because they're also, by the way, to call it, I mean, this is why I say anti-racist training is

00:18:41.740 Orwellian. The city of Seattle, when they did their mandated city anti-racist training,

00:18:47.640 segregated it by the racists. There was a separate training for white employees of the city of

00:18:52.120 Seattle than there were for black employees of the city of Seattle. I'm not kidding. 1.00

00:18:57.040 Did they have separate drinking fountains as well, just to spice things up?

00:19:00.180 Well, they probably did. And I'll give you even one better. The white employees were asked to 0.82

00:19:04.680 come in on a vacation day that they had already planned to participate in the anti-racist training

00:19:09.820 voluntarily of course wow so they were segregating people because of their race to receive different

00:19:18.620 training and uh i think the question is like haven't we made this mistake before i mean it's

00:19:25.740 separate but equal if there ever was a case of it isn't there yeah right no but and but they never

00:19:32.900 offer an alternative they all they basically do when they come in and do this training is they

00:19:36.740 say all of these things that white people have brought onto the organization these are all bad 0.86

00:19:41.520 and so we have to dismantle them now an extra thing i'm going to throw in here is i've actually

00:19:45.520 analyzed that six-page document that they say is all white supremacy in organizations and i'll tell

00:19:51.920 you this absolutely none of those things in organizations have to do with skin color a lot

00:19:56.400 of the grievances they have actually have to do with the work styles that people bring with them

00:20:00.280 to work. So your work style is things like how you communicate, how you collaborate. Do you like

00:20:04.200 to work at a fast pace? Do you like to work at a slow pace? Are you open and friendly? Are you

00:20:08.540 more questioning and skeptical? All of these things make up an individual's work style and

00:20:13.400 all of the conflicts that we see coming up that are, that are grieved in this white supremacist

00:20:18.940 document are all work style conflicts. I can explain every single one of them by saying

00:20:23.460 this work style does this, this work style does not. And so they're trying to frame it as though

00:20:28.240 this is an issue of race. All white people do this. All people of color do not. And it's just 0.94

00:20:32.740 not true. And there is no evidence to back it up. And Carla, we keep using this term white 0.98

00:20:39.900 supremacy and white supremacist. Now, when I think of a white supremacist, maybe because I'm a bit

00:20:44.880 backward and a bit ignorant, I imagine a Ku Klux Klan member in a little pointy hat saying 0.98

00:20:49.660 awful racial epithets, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Is that what we mean now by a white 0.99

00:20:55.480 supremacist it is not what we mean by a white supremacist what we mean by a white supremacist

00:21:00.600 is someone who is white oh well i'm i'm nothing more to add like honestly he's talking about you 0.99

00:21:09.080 mate you are the face of white supremacy disappointing as that is for white supremacists 0.92

00:21:15.440 if that's the case well i don't know about that the white supremacy movement is therefore 1.00

00:21:21.100 fucked if i'm the leader of it okay i mean you put it in a very blunt way but i i have to say 0.95

00:21:30.900 based on what i am hearing as the conversation about white supremacy it's starting to feel a 0.99

00:21:37.400 little bit like that is what they mean it's exactly what they mean in fact it's actually

00:21:42.120 laid out in the books i can i can point to passages in the cursed book that shall not be

00:21:48.200 named in which they actually say that white people do not exist in a culture outside of

00:21:54.480 white supremacy. Okay, so all white people are white supremacists. Well, yeah, I have a feeling 0.99

00:22:01.540 that might not be a healthy way of looking at things, you know, if I may say so without being

00:22:06.380 cancelled. So you talk about this being implemented in the workplace. I can't imagine this would have

00:22:14.340 anything other than a horrific impact on relationships between people in those workplaces.

00:22:21.860 But I imagine in terms of broader society, the impact of that, of re-racializing everything, 0.85

00:22:29.020 is going to be detrimental as well, isn't it? Well, yeah. And what I'm about to say,

00:22:33.280 it can apply to workplaces. It can also apply to broader society. So one of the components

00:22:37.360 of the anti-racist training is that white people are responsible for calling out other white people

00:22:44.160 on their racist actions.

00:22:45.460 It's part of your responsibility

00:22:46.580 of being an anti-racist.

00:22:48.200 And that's what they mean

00:22:49.060 when they say it's not enough

00:22:50.360 not to be racist,

00:22:51.960 to be an active anti-racist.

00:22:53.960 So you have to call people out

00:22:55.220 when they're doing anything

00:22:56.280 that they perceive as white supremacists.

00:22:59.520 And you get points, of course,

00:23:01.140 for calling people out

00:23:02.400 on their racist actions.

00:23:03.640 So it almost becomes like a game,

00:23:05.320 like who can score

00:23:06.320 the most white supremacy points

00:23:08.300 and all this stuff.

00:23:09.260 And so when you're,

00:23:10.080 it's essentially,

00:23:11.440 you've got a bunch of spies

00:23:12.460 around you now

00:23:13.180 looking for reasons to call you out because if they call you out that means that they are

00:23:17.900 more anti-racist than you and so instead of incentivizing team camaraderie and collaboration

00:23:23.940 and interpersonal relationships and giving people the benefit of the doubt actually you know what's

00:23:29.280 funny is um there was recently an infographic on a website for one of the smithsonian museums in

00:23:35.580 the states in which they said that having positive intent assuming positive intent of people is a

00:23:42.300 white supremacist attributes. So we can't, we can't be giving people the benefit of the doubt

00:23:46.460 any longer either. So when you take these attributes and you apply them to teamwork

00:23:50.220 in organizations, it is going to go completely off the rails. And one of the things that is so

00:23:55.780 insidious about this training, and I frankly don't really understand it, is it seems to suck people

00:24:01.380 right into it. And it's almost like once this training happens, once these ideas take root,

00:24:06.960 It is incredibly hard to facilitate teamwork, to facilitate collaboration, to facilitate

00:24:13.280 even normal conversations.

00:24:15.160 So in the work environment, it's going to be incredibly detrimental, but also in society

00:24:19.080 where we have so many divisions right now, it makes it near impossible for people who

00:24:24.700 even have the most minor disagreements to have productive conversations.

00:24:29.920 Francis, before you take over, let me just say this one thing.

00:24:33.100 So, Colin, you're saying meetings are white supremacists, being organized is white supremacy, having positive intent and assuming positive intent on behalf of other people.

00:24:42.780 That's white supremacy. Working hard, creating good product.

00:24:46.180 These are all are they trying to make white supremacy really attractive?

00:24:49.520 Is that what this is all about?

00:24:51.300 I have no I mean, it seems like it, doesn't it?

00:24:54.020 But no, I mean, I have no idea.

00:24:56.320 And part of the problem, again, is that they haven't presented an alternative.

00:25:00.320 Well, if this is white supremacy, what do you want?

00:25:03.940 If you want to dismantle the system of white supremacy,

00:25:06.940 what are you trying to replace it with?

00:25:08.500 There's no alternative that's been presented.

00:25:11.480 And, Carlin, so we're saying all these things,

00:25:14.700 you know, white supremacy and all the rest of it,

00:25:16.420 but there's a cynical part of me that goes, hang on.

00:25:20.140 When this affects the bottom dollar, when this affects profits,

00:25:24.340 isn't it on the shareholders going to be up in arms and going,

00:25:28.320 look, I don't care about any of this. Profits are down. We're going to cut this nonsense out.

00:25:33.840 Well, I mean, you say that, and I tend to agree with it. But here's the thing.

00:25:37.600 When I talk to CEOs of organizations that are issuing their Black Lives Matter statements and

00:25:43.660 making bold declarations of all the training they're going to do with their people,

00:25:47.420 they don't care about any of this stuff. They don't care at all. They're doing it because

00:25:52.960 they don't want the mob to come after them. That is the only reason that they're doing it.

00:25:57.640 And so CEOs are actually between a rock and a hard place right now, because if they don't issue the statement, they're going to have people saying, well, why didn't you issue the statement? What are we doing? What are we doing to dismantle white supremacy in our organization? And there's going to be a whole thing of it.

00:26:11.420 If they do it, then they're going to be actively infusing their organizational culture with more of this nonsense, and it's eventually going to lead to the bottom line of having that bottom line impact.

00:26:23.520 I don't know how this plays out until there's got to be one or two CEOs of major companies that stand up and say, we're not doing this.

00:26:34.800 This is our business.

00:26:36.060 Our business is not to fix every problem with society.

00:26:39.440 Our business is to sell you socks.

00:26:41.420 our business is like the my pillow guy probably our business is to sell you pillows that's what

00:26:46.020 we do and that's what we're going to do and Colin I it's very interesting all the points you're

00:26:52.740 making but then sometimes I do read a study for example it says that if you have a name that is

00:26:58.600 more African or you know unless I say European you're less likely to be offered a job or an

00:27:04.800 interview doesn't that mean that therefore some of these trainings are possibly beneficial

00:27:11.240 Well, I think, and that's, yeah, that's a great question.

00:27:13.960 And you're absolutely right.

00:27:15.000 There is research to say that if you have a certain sounding name, you are less likely

00:27:18.760 to be invited in for an interview.

00:27:20.420 And, you know, this is where I, we have to have a more nuanced discussion about this

00:27:25.060 is my big issue with it, because there are very real problems and very real conversations

00:27:30.760 to have about race in organizations and, of course, in broader society.

00:27:34.840 And we can have those conversations and think about ways to implement trainings, implement

00:27:39.860 processes, implement procedures to counterbalance some of these things, and make sure everyone in

00:27:44.920 every organization has equal access to opportunity regardless of their race, their gender, their

00:27:51.040 sexual orientation, any of the things. Those are real conversations to have. Right now, we cannot

00:27:57.200 have those conversations because the only thing that people care about is implementing this

00:28:03.460 anti-racist training. So the nuance is lost. Either you are doing it or you are not. If you are doing

00:28:09.060 it, then you are good. If you are not doing it, or if you want to have a conversation about

00:28:13.600 different ways to approach these problems, then you are bad. That's a very, very important point

00:28:21.600 to make. And it does actually feel as if at the moment we are arriving at the death of nuance and

00:28:26.000 everything is binary and you're either red or blue or Brexit remain, all the rest of it. But

00:28:31.000 touching on politics, we are entering a very, very interesting time in the political

00:28:36.260 in the political situation at the moment where we have Trump and he looks to be a little bit on the

00:28:42.980 downward slope. What do you think about Trump? How has he handled the situation? And can he get

00:28:49.300 out of it? I think Trump can absolutely get out of it. I think Trump absolutely can win the election

00:28:55.260 in November. I think he actually probably will win the election in November. I mean, listen,

00:28:59.120 there hasn't even been a debate between Trump and Biden yet. And I think that what we're seeing

00:29:05.080 right now, I don't think that Trump has handled the situation post George Floyd's death perfectly.

00:29:10.800 I think that there are a lot of things that he could have done differently. I think that there

00:29:14.320 was a lot that I liked about how Trump handled COVID. There was some stuff that I didn't like

00:29:18.420 about how he handled it. He's like any other president. He is not perfect. Spoiler alert,

00:29:22.880 Trump is not a perfect man, nor is he a perfect president. But I do think he's going to come out

00:29:29.300 on top. And the reason I think that is because Trump may not be perfect and there may be plenty

00:29:34.540 of problems that we can have about him, but the Democrats have gone off the rails in the United

00:29:39.940 States. And if you look at Joe Biden, and I'm not a clinical psychologist, so I can say this because

00:29:45.160 I won't get in trouble like the clinicians. Joe Biden has dementia. Joe Biden, in my opinion,

00:29:50.160 has dementia. It is absolutely clear. And so we're basically deciding right now between someone who

00:29:55.900 is a very deeply imperfect human being and someone who doesn't know what state he's in

00:30:01.600 or what office he's running for. And so, I mean, I'm going to take the imperfect choice.

00:30:06.720 And I think that a lot of Americans will as well.

00:30:09.440 And it's interesting setting the background to that, Carlin, because I wanted to start the

00:30:13.740 conversation about your political journey. You've gone from being a Democrat for 20 years

00:30:19.320 to now supporting Donald Trump. But actually, it kind of started with knitting. Is that right?

00:30:24.540 It did. It did. It started with knitting. So I am an avid knitter. And so, you know,

00:30:30.420 when I when I say it starts with knitting what people think of are like knitting circles with

00:30:34.180 old ladies and tea and they sit around and you know gossip and all that stuff that's not actually

00:30:38.660 what it is for a lot of people today knitting exists primarily online like everything does

00:30:43.840 and so there are massive sites that are deal primarily with knitting where knitters interact

00:30:48.100 and where I was mostly interacting with people was on Instagram and you just see pictures of

00:30:52.280 yarn and projects and all this stuff and it's supposed to be fun and relaxing and not stressful

00:30:56.980 at all until the social justice warriors took over our knitting community and started going 0.98

00:31:03.400 around and harassing people with businesses um the first woman they harassed it was because she 1.00

00:31:09.900 posted a blog post about being very excited about going on a trip to india and it wasn't it wasn't

00:31:15.040 okay that was not okay she had to issue a dramatic public apology outlining all the reasons it was

00:31:20.260 wrong for her to be excited about going to india the next person which included what sorry like

00:31:25.860 Like, what's wrong with going to India?

00:31:27.640 That it was wrong to be excited because she was othering people

00:31:32.120 and it had something to do with colonization.

00:31:35.200 And it's still up on the internet today.

00:31:37.820 I mean, it's like a full blog post apology

00:31:40.160 outlining everything that she said was wrong.

00:31:43.160 The next person they went after was a woman who's a hand-dyed gerund. 1.00

00:31:48.580 Her name is Maria Tuscan.

00:31:49.600 And Maria saw what was going on with the initial bullying.

00:31:53.040 And all she did was post a video saying,

00:31:55.180 I'm not comfortable with this and I'm going to leave Instagram for a while and for her troubles

00:32:00.140 she was attacked and mobbed by hundreds of people and had her business destroyed and she's one of 0.74

00:32:05.180 the loveliest sweetest people you'll ever meet in her life but apparently for them she was just too

00:32:09.160 white to exist in the knitting community and so they had to get rid of her but the most distressing 1.00

00:32:13.580 incident and the one that actually got my attention was a man actually a gay man in the knitting

00:32:18.740 community which men in the knitting world are minorities he posted a poem about kindness and

00:32:24.640 just asking people to be kind and empathetic to each other and he was mobbed so badly by thousands

00:32:31.340 of people over the course of several days that he eventually checked himself into the hospital and

00:32:36.320 was put on suicide watch and so it really did I mean it's kind of funny to think you know the

00:32:41.420 knitting community but it really did have a very real impact on very real lives and at that point

00:32:47.300 I started paying attention I started going what is this social justice stuff because I had no I

00:32:52.480 really had no idea and so once you wake up and you start seeing it you kind of can't unsee it

00:32:58.720 and then as you all know you start seeing it everywhere but that i'm just going to get my

00:33:04.780 head around this so knitting right the knitting community people sitting around with two needles

00:33:11.500 and a bowl and a ball of yarn making scarves and then we ended up by talking about white supremacy

00:33:18.540 and colonization oh i'll give you i'll give you another one these are actually two two guys in

00:33:23.740 the uk actually they live in london um they wrote a book called knit and nibble which is all about

00:33:28.980 knitting and also baking desserts and they went on some show that apparently is about losing weight

00:33:35.680 hell in a healthy way to promote their book as as people do when they write a book they want to

00:33:40.420 promote it and these two men were bullied and mobbed for fat shaming and how dare you contribute 0.55

00:33:47.020 to this toxic, fat-shaming industry

00:33:49.540 when their whole book was about desserts.

00:33:51.600 Like, this was not a diet book.

00:33:53.300 And so, I mean, there is no rhyme or reason

00:33:55.560 to why they're making these attacks.

00:33:57.920 It's simply that, and I think we see this

00:33:59.700 with the anti-racist training.

00:34:01.520 I think we can look at any part of society

00:34:03.520 that social justice has impacted.

00:34:05.240 It's not about white supremacy.

00:34:07.500 It's not about equality.

00:34:09.160 It's not about treating people well.

00:34:11.880 It's simply about having something to be angry about.

00:34:14.760 And if they don't have something to be angry about,

00:34:16.420 because we've already talked about creators and destroyers.

00:34:19.140 Destroyers need something to destroy.

00:34:21.060 They will go and find something to be angry about.

00:34:24.340 And the people that were doing this in the knitting world,

00:34:26.820 and I do feel like we're focusing on knitting quite a lot,

00:34:28.980 but this is interesting because,

00:34:30.720 and just for people who are watching this,

00:34:32.540 maybe not be aware,

00:34:33.520 as you say, what happened in your knitting community,

00:34:37.520 so to speak, happens everywhere.

00:34:39.420 It's just one example of it.

00:34:40.920 So if we delve slightly deeper into that,

00:34:43.320 Were the people who started bullying the people that you mentioned, were they kind of existing members of the community or were these people who came seemingly out of nowhere?

00:34:54.960 No, they were existing members of the community.

00:34:58.340 But I mean, and actually some of them, there's actually a very big knitting site Ravelry that actually ended up banning all support for Donald Trump.

00:35:06.220 So you are not allowed to talk about Donald Trump on the biggest knitting site on the Internet.

00:35:10.680 So no, I mean, they were definitely existing members of the community, but I'll tell you a funny story about one of them. So the person that was leading the charge against the man that eventually went to the hospital and suicide watch, it was later discovered, she actually lives in the UK as well, it was later discovered that she was running a scam out of her house to sell handicapped children vacation packages, and is currently in jail because of it.

00:35:35.300 So I have to say there's a little bit of vindication about that.

00:35:39.620 Just a side note.

00:35:41.260 They're always good people, aren't they, really?

00:35:43.360 They're just terrific moral human beings.

00:35:46.460 But it just feels so surreal that even a subject as uncontentious as knitting

00:35:52.660 is now becoming, you know, just riddled with violent anger.

00:35:57.000 It's utterly bizarre.

00:35:58.760 Well, it's because it's not about the knitting, though.

00:36:01.040 And this is what I think.

00:36:01.920 It's really, we need to hit this point home.

00:36:03.840 um and your viewers know this it's not about the knitting it's not about the gaming it's not about

00:36:08.480 young adult fiction it's not about it's not about racism in the workplace it's not about any of

00:36:13.440 these things it's about having something to be angry about right so but i guess then the question

00:36:20.120 is and maybe i don't know if you feel like you're the right person to answer it but why now carlin

00:36:25.700 why is it that now people so many people all at once feel that they've got to be angry about

00:36:30.400 something? Is it that we've done so well as a civilization that there's nothing to be angry

00:36:34.840 about? Or is it, on the other hand, rising inequality and people genuinely have a reason

00:36:39.500 to be angry at something? What is it about this moment that has erupted in this way?

00:36:46.060 I think that's a really good question. And I don't know that I have a concrete answer to it. I have

00:36:50.820 some theories about it. I think that if I'm looking at the people that are being really

00:36:55.400 destructive in this moment. They're primarily younger people, right? They're primarily people 0.98

00:37:00.240 under, you know, 25, certainly under 30 for most of them. And they never had their civil rights

00:37:05.620 movement. I mean, when I was younger, I was fighting for gay marriage to be legalized and

00:37:11.020 not, I mean, because I thought that was something that was very important to me. That was part of

00:37:14.180 a reason I became a Democrat is I wanted anyone to be able to marry who they loved. Well, that was

00:37:19.000 really one of the last big battles of civil rights in the United States. I mean, today, if we look at

00:37:25.080 marginalized groups. I mean, we can talk about how, you know, trans people struggle. And I think

00:37:29.540 there's certainly conversations to be had there, but can they do anything under the law that I can

00:37:33.960 do? Well, yes, they can. The legal barriers to this have been, have been torn down. And so there

00:37:41.620 has not been a civil rights battle for people to struggle. And I think when younger people,

00:37:46.480 especially look back at the civil rights era and the protests, I think there's something enticing 0.76

00:37:51.180 about that. There's something enticing about being part of the group that is fighting for the moral

00:37:56.280 good of humanity, but there's no battle to fight. So they had to create something. Now, I also don't

00:38:01.880 think that social media has helped matters any. I think that social media and the dopamine hits

00:38:07.680 that people get from those likes and having those large followings, and they're always on their

00:38:11.940 phones all the time has only contributed to this. The other part of this though, is that we know

00:38:17.060 that people who spend a lot of time on social media or on their phones, they get clinically

00:38:21.800 depressed. They are much more likely to be clinically depressed. And so we're factoring

00:38:27.040 in mental illness into this affair. And really, there's no, people have not taught them how to

00:38:33.660 productively manage these challenges, how to productively cope with these challenges. What

00:38:38.660 they are doing is just feeding them more things to be angry about. So I blame the education system,

00:38:44.040 Number one, primarily, that's the thing that I spend the most time thinking about these days is how much our system of education, at least in the States, and I'm sure elsewhere as well, from kindergarten all the way up through higher education, how much our teachers have contributed to this problem?

00:39:00.960 Because not only are they teaching a very distorted version of history, but they're not teaching people how to productively cope and how to actually build things and become creators.

00:39:11.760 They're only teaching them about how to do negative things.

00:39:15.020 And don't you think part of the problem as well, Carlin, is that we've built, you know, Twitter, Facebook, all the rest of it.

00:39:21.500 And really, we have tools that are so powerful.

00:39:24.380 We don't even know the long term implications of being exposed to these kind of things.

00:39:28.260 and also let's be brutally honest it's not in these companies best interest to minimize your

00:39:33.600 time on their platform no no it's not in their best interest at all and so they've got all sorts

00:39:38.340 i mean they they know exactly what they need to do to keep you on that platform to keep you doing

00:39:42.760 posts to keep you liking things they they've got us all by by something um i'll tell you that and

00:39:49.600 and that's well done for being inclusive there carly well i don't want to make any assumptions

00:39:54.540 Right. No. So, I mean, I, this is, this is a problem and I don't know how we counteract this

00:40:02.080 because people are there. They're not only addicted to social media, but also that anger

00:40:07.720 that people are feeling. There is actually a physical addiction to anger and to outrage

00:40:12.760 that is just as powerful as an addiction to cigarettes or alcohol or sugar or any of these

00:40:18.760 things. And if we're constantly just feeding people anger, we're not helping them to get

00:40:24.020 over that addiction. That's really interesting. So people, in a sense, just become addicted to

00:40:29.700 that emotion, that emotion that they're feeling. And do you think Trump as a president helps to

00:40:36.880 kind of perpetuate that anger when he puts out some of his more, dare we say, inflammatory tweets?

00:40:43.120 I think Trump takes pride in being inflammatory. Trump is the ultimate troll for sure. No, 0.98

00:40:50.840 I mean, Trump is not helping this. This is one of my biggest challenges with Trump is that he could, I really think Trump has had moments in his presidency where he could have worked to bring people together. And what does he do? He demonizes the other side just as much as the other side has demonized him. There are no innocent people in this scenario.

00:41:09.540 And I think that the challenge is that we need to have people in leadership positions that are actually interested in solving the problems, not interested in winning the fight, being interested in solving the problems.

00:41:22.620 Because when you shift from winning the fight to solving the problem, it's fundamentally different because when you're trying to solve a problem, you have to come to the table and be willing to compromise, be willing to debate different positions,

00:41:34.760 be willing to give up a little bit of your position to give someone else a win so you could

00:41:39.460 bring them along. You know who Paul knew this as a politician? Arnold Schwarzenegger.

00:41:45.620 Arnold Schwarzenegger, of all people, he absolutely knew this. Arnold Schwarzenegger,

00:41:49.940 as a Republican when he was governor of California, he had Democrats on his team. He had a whole

00:41:55.280 little team of rivals going on. He also, you know, I saw him speak at South by Southwest

00:42:00.280 several years ago. And one of the things he talked about in his talk, I'll never forget it. He was

00:42:05.160 talking about how he brought all the stakeholders around healthcare in California into the same room

00:42:10.600 and to try to fix healthcare. And he told them going into it, he said, none of you should expect

00:42:16.380 to walk out of here with a 10. The best you should expect for it is a seven, because if you get 70%

00:42:22.140 of what you want, and that means you're giving other people a win. If you demand 100% of what

00:42:27.420 you want, that means that guy's over there is only going to get 30% of what he wants, and he's not

00:42:31.540 going to go along with it, and he's going to leave entirely. We have forgotten that it's pretty good

00:42:36.300 to get 70% of what you want and to give the other side a win. Instead, what everyone is doing is

00:42:41.980 digging their heels in until they can get 100% of what they want. And what that leads to is everyone

00:42:47.080 getting nothing. That's a really good point that you make. And I guess the question is, as we come

00:42:54.020 to probably the last 10 minutes of the interview is how do we start to set society back on the road

00:43:00.060 to the sensible uh ideas that you make i mean for example in the workplace how do we how do we go

00:43:06.340 back to or not maybe go forward to to to that way of thinking i think it's going to take people in

00:43:13.480 leadership positions that are going to have to make unpopular choices they're going to have to

00:43:19.420 say, no, we're not doing this anti-racist stuff because we are a pillow company. That is what we

00:43:24.940 do. We are going to do the very best that we can to produce the best pillows that we possibly can.

00:43:29.960 And that does not involve anti-racist training and to have the courage to stand up and do that.

00:43:34.960 And, you know, I have a series of conversations on my channel with Dr. Howard Asher, who's a

00:43:39.920 psychotherapist out in Los Angeles. And he says all the time, he says, Carlin, people have to be

00:43:45.260 willing to be called a racist and to know that is not the end of the world. And once people get

00:43:52.240 over that obstacle of being willing to be called a racist, then that frees them up to make all

00:43:57.280 sorts of decisions because they are no longer having fear of what the mob is going to do to

00:44:03.920 them. But isn't that a lot to ask from people? Because I've been, I mean, we both have been

00:44:09.840 called racist i've been called pro-fascist i've had a deeply hurtful email written to me from

00:44:15.380 someone who i used to consider a friend explaining to me how i've now become a mean and nasty person

00:44:20.360 all the rest of it all right mate it's not a therapy session she's a psychologist it is therapy

00:44:26.200 but but my point is this isn't that a lot to ask from people because these words are deeply hurtful

00:44:35.000 Well, Francis, you're still doing the show.

00:44:38.280 Yeah, but I'm a narcissist.

00:44:39.800 I want attention.

00:44:43.720 Well, I mean, then your desire to keep doing the show has become stronger than your desire

00:44:48.540 not to be called a racist, right?

00:44:50.800 I mean, for business owners, this is going to be the decision between, do I want my company

00:44:55.940 to be successful and profitable, or am I afraid of being called a racist?

00:45:00.520 That's the choice.

00:45:01.460 And whichever one you want more is the one that's going to win out.

00:45:05.000 So I suppose what you're really talking about, and it's a running theme through most of our

00:45:09.080 recent interviews, I suppose, is you're talking about the need for people to be courageous in

00:45:13.140 the face of bullying and in the face of peer pressure and pressure from above.

00:45:20.060 Absolutely. And I think that this is actually, it could almost evolve into a solution for society

00:45:25.140 as well. But you have to know who you are. And if you know that you are a good person and you do

00:45:32.660 not treat people differently based on the color of their skin or who they love or their gender or

00:45:37.600 any of the other things, if you know that you are not a racist, then why would you listen to someone

00:45:43.540 else who tells you that you are? Why are we giving other people, people who are significantly more

00:45:50.020 likely to have mental health issues, why are we giving them that power over us to tell us who we

00:45:56.560 are and what we believe? But isn't there also something to be said, Connie, in that we're all,

00:46:01.700 let's be fair, relatively privileged positions, you know, that we have started,

00:46:05.700 we've got our own platforms, we've started to develop our own followings.

00:46:10.720 A lot of people don't have those advantages.

00:46:15.080 Well, listen, I didn't have any of what I have now in terms of a platform before I wrote my

00:46:20.780 Trump rally article. And, you know, I'll admit, it was very scary for me to put it out there that

00:46:25.840 I went to a Donald Trump rally, and it turns out that they aren't racist and Nazis and KKK leaders

00:46:31.100 and just normal people it is scary at first but it doesn't require you know eric weinstein tweeted

00:46:37.460 um not too long ago that it requires fu money to stand up to the mob it does not require fu money

00:46:44.380 it does not require a platform all it requires is a spine and we have seen this over and over

00:46:51.060 and over again that people who stand up to the mob and do not bend the knee the mob tends to

00:46:56.920 them alone. We saw this in the knitting community. The knitting community is not unique in that it

00:47:01.460 was invaded by SJWs. The knitting community is unique in that it fought back and is still

00:47:07.680 fighting back hard against the SJWs. And guess what happened when a lot of us started fighting

00:47:12.600 back and speaking up? They stopped bothering us. They came after us a little while, but then they

00:47:17.600 stopped bothering us. And then once other people saw that they stopped bothering us, they started

00:47:22.180 fighting back too. And all of a sudden, you've got a lot of people that have been given that

00:47:27.020 courage that they don't have giant platforms, they don't have FU money, but they're standing

00:47:31.440 up and saying what they believe. And once you stand your ground, the mob won't hurt you.

00:47:37.860 That's a really interesting point, because I wrote an article probably two or three weeks

00:47:41.680 ago in The Spectator over here about why I don't support the BLM organization and why neither

00:47:47.080 this should the readers who are reading it and I got almost no negative feedback on it at all

00:47:52.320 it was quite extraordinary and I think they've just kind of given up because I just clearly

00:47:57.900 say to them I don't care what you think and I'm going to make fun of you and I think if you do

00:48:02.660 that and you just stand up for what you believe as you say I think over time they just leave you

00:48:07.680 alone because they're like oh this person isn't actually vulnerable to us um did you think that's

00:48:13.480 really what it's about is what they zone in and they hone in on people who they sense are vulnerable

00:48:18.480 and who they sense are susceptible to being bullied. I think that that's exactly what it is.

00:48:23.260 And I actually wrote my doctoral dissertation about workplace bullying in organizations and

00:48:27.380 workplace bullying. It's a power game, just like what the SJWs are doing. It is a power game.

00:48:32.620 Bullies hone in on the people who they perceive are not going to fight back because it makes them

00:48:38.920 feel powerful. And most bullies, by the way, are people who have been bullied at other points in

00:48:44.260 their lives or their careers or whatever. And so that's how they learn how to bully. And when

00:48:48.720 you're bullied, fundamentally, that takes you out of power. When they're bullying other people,

00:48:52.640 that's a way that they're putting themselves back in control. But if you stand in front of them and

00:48:56.600 make it very clear to them that you are not going to allow this to happen to you in, and there are

00:49:01.780 a bunch of different ways to do that, they will eventually back down because you know what,

00:49:05.840 there's a sea of people who are willing to allow themselves to be bullied. They have got a lot of

00:49:11.620 other options to go to. Why expend energy on people who are simply not going to take it and

00:49:16.900 are going to fight back and are going to make your life more difficult when you can just go

00:49:20.260 right over to Susie Q, who's absolutely going to take it because she hasn't learned this lesson 0.99

00:49:24.640 yet. And if you were going to put together just a little bit of a guide or certain points for

00:49:30.920 For someone who is going through this type of online bullying, what advice would you give them?

00:49:37.160 The very first thing I would say is that get off the computer, probably. Twitter is not real life.

00:49:43.880 Social media is not real life. Go out and be in the real world. Even in the era of coronavirus,

00:49:48.780 you can still go out and be in the real world. But I think the most important thing is that

00:49:53.860 people need to start doing more inner work to build up their internal security. Because if you

00:50:00.700 have internal security, no one can knock you off that rocker. That's innate to you. No one can take

00:50:07.740 that away from you. The very best way to build up internal security that I know of is a regular

00:50:12.880 daily practice of meditation. People have got to start meditating. And I know that doesn't seem

00:50:18.860 like a direct route or even one that makes sense. But when you're meditating on a daily

00:50:23.840 basis. And there are lots of ways to do this. Lots of free programs people can use. It's just

00:50:27.520 a matter of getting into the habit. You learn how to control your emotions. You learn how to put

00:50:32.780 things in perspective. You learn how to give yourself the love and consideration that you're

00:50:38.980 looking for from other people. And so it teaches you so many valuable skills to be your own best

00:50:45.360 friend, to be your own biggest supporter, to be your own biggest advocate. And that's what's going

00:50:50.600 to develop that internal security. You try bullying someone with internal security and

00:50:54.680 you watch what happens, you're not going to last very long. So people have got to do that for

00:50:58.460 themselves. No one else can do it for you. That sounds like the tools of white supremacy

00:51:02.420 to me, Colin. Probably. Well, on that happy note, I was going to say on that happy note,

00:51:08.520 but then France has broadened white supremacy and it's a lot less happy all of a sudden.

00:51:12.120 But on that note, Colin, it's been absolutely fantastic speaking with you. I think some of

00:51:16.080 the insights you've given us into the workplace events that are ongoing now, and also what you

00:51:21.540 say about the importance of building up your own confidence and your courage are also really,

00:51:27.160 really important in this moment that we're in. And with that in mind, the last question we always

00:51:32.000 ask is, what is the one thing that we're not talking about as a society that we really should

00:51:37.240 be talking about? I think that, you know, we've kind of waffled around it a little bit in this

00:51:42.840 conversation. But the thing that is keeping me up at night is how do we break this addiction to

00:51:49.600 anger? And what I want people to really understand is it is a physical addiction,

00:51:54.100 because what happens in your mind makes its way into the body. We see this every time someone

00:51:58.880 has a nightmare in terms of they wake up, they're sweating, their whole body's clenched,

00:52:03.780 they feel like they just ran a 5K even though they're laying in bed. That's our mind having

00:52:07.340 a direct impact on the body. And every time we're angry, our brain sends certain hormones into the

00:52:13.220 body that makes us physically feel that anger. How are we counterbalancing that? That's something I

00:52:18.340 would like to hear a lot more conversation about. And how are we counterbalancing it, not only for

00:52:22.300 the adults that have this addiction that are wreaking havoc on our society, but how do we

00:52:26.660 teach young children how to do that so they don't grow up and become an SJW? That's the question.

00:52:32.200 thank you very very much carlin it's been an absolutely superb interview if people want to

00:52:38.660 find you on social media where would be the best place for this yeah one of the best places right

00:52:42.980 now is actually youtube i have my own channel on here where i pontificate on the daily i can also

00:52:47.800 be found on twitter at dr carlin b and on parlor minds and gabs at carlin fantastic well thank you

00:52:55.220 very much for coming on the show and thank you everybody for watching listening we will see you

00:53:00.040 very soon with a live stream or another brilliant episode absolutely all our episodes and all our

00:53:06.220 live streams go out at 7 p.m uk time that's 7 p.m uk time see you soon guys

TRIGGERnometry - August 05, 2020

＂Anti-Racism Training Doesn't Work＂ - Dr Karlyn Borysenko

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript