TRIGGERnometry - ＂Antifa Violence Won't Stop Under Biden＂ - Andy Ngo

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00:00:30.000 hello and welcome to trigonometry i'm francis foster i'm constantin kissin and this is a show

00:00:40.640 for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people our brilliant and returning

00:00:46.240 guest today is an independent journalist and the author of unmasked inside antifa's radical plan

00:00:52.100 to destroy democracy nice neutral title there and you know welcome back to trigonometry i'm very

00:00:56.700 happy to be here again. We're very happy to have you back, Andy. You've been doing some really

00:01:00.740 important work. We had you on the show last time, shortly after you were assaulted, and we talked

00:01:05.480 by Antifa, and we talked about that a lot. But since then, in April and May of 2020, we saw

00:01:11.740 the BLM protests and Antifa related to that, really taking over several city centres in America,

00:01:18.560 and you did some great work on that. So for anyone who doesn't know what Antifa is, who has never

00:01:24.340 heard of this issue before who maybe frankly hasn't ever seen any coverage because some of

00:01:28.580 the stuff you've been posting on social media from footage from those scenes never made it to

00:01:34.200 mainstream television or on news certainly in this country. So just give everybody a big picture

00:01:39.260 overview. What is Antifa? What has been happening in America for the last year? Antifa is a violent

00:01:46.780 extremist movement of anarchists and communists with the explicit stated goal of destroying

00:01:52.720 liberal democracies. So they've seen a significant rise, particularly since the election of Donald

00:02:00.220 Trump in late 2016. And instead of just being a radical left-farless movement on the fringes,

00:02:09.860 they've moved into the mainstream in America, first through periodic infrequent street brawls

00:02:16.120 and riots in the cities like Portland, Berkeley, and Seattle, escalating to the point of throughout

00:02:23.120 2020, mass simultaneous riots in dozens of cities of coordinated street violence,

00:02:33.740 arson attacks, the use of mortar explosives. And even in the case of where I'm from, Portland,

00:02:40.360 we had a homicide, a murder.

00:02:43.920 And so they've taken over several city centers.

00:02:47.200 I remember CHAZ and they've done another one in Portland

00:02:50.020 recently as well.

00:02:52.420 And what is the, because for a lot of people who, again,

00:02:56.420 who haven't followed this, it's hard to tell like BLM,

00:02:59.400 protest, Antifa, is there a connection there?

00:03:02.040 Are these two organizations working together?

00:03:05.240 How do you see that part of it?

00:03:07.300 They are working together.

00:03:08.240 They do have different ultimate agendas.

00:03:12.560 Broadly, Antifa are made up of anarchist communists.

00:03:17.560 So they believe that we can organize society under communism

00:03:23.120 without the use of a big government or totalitarian state.

00:03:29.200 So this is why when you look at the communes that they make,

00:03:32.960 like communes or their autonomous zones,

00:03:34.960 you look at the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone,

00:03:37.300 otherwise known as CHAZ, you look at the autonomous zone they have in Portland,

00:03:40.980 they will create these sort of lawless areas where they say that they don't need the state,

00:03:46.020 they don't need law enforcement, they don't need any type of order that they can take care of themselves.

00:03:50.420 Of course, we know they can't take care of themselves.

00:03:52.640 In the case of CHAZ, we had two homicides there, several shootings.

00:03:58.140 In the case of Portland, it was literally creating a war zone in the middle of a residential area in Portland.

00:04:04.340 And you contrast that with BLM, which is in its theoretical underpinnings, very sort of classic revolutionary Marxists who are about sneaking into the institutions of the state and mainstreaming their Marxist agenda.

00:04:27.260 So, you know, there's a very systematic attack on free markets from BLM and they're using it under the guise of racial justice. 0.52

00:04:34.340 So there's a certain amount of overlap in terms of opposition to the state, particularly the United States of America, opposition to capitalism, of course, opposition and hatred, murderous hatred of law enforcement.

00:04:47.420 So because of that, there's been a certain cross-pollination. And you've seen Antifa implement some of the intersectional ideology that's prevalent in BLM and also the usage of their chants, Black Lives Matter and all that.

00:05:04.540 To the point now where when I describe Antifa, at least in America, I use BLM-Antifa, because I really do think that they're such linked entities.

00:05:15.080 Ultimately, their ideologies will clash because one is calling for essentially a totalitarian state, BLM, whereas Antifa is calling for anarchy.

00:05:28.860 Let's find out who wins that one. That would be great, wouldn't it?

00:05:31.600 Yeah, that'd be very, very interesting. But, you know, we've got Antifa on one side, we've got BLM, but surely we need to take into account that there are a lot of people who march for BLM who have got no idea about Antifa, who've got no idea about, you know, these hardline Marxist views. Where do these people come in? The people who just go along and march and just want to see maybe social justice, maybe want to see black people being treated more fairly?

00:05:57.200 Yeah, so I feel I don't feel happy to describe them in this way, but I would call they're being used as useful idiots, essentially. So both these movements, Antifa and BLM, use the cloak of racial justice and social justice to shield themselves from criticism. 0.97

00:06:18.440 So, for example, I have spoken vocally in opposition transfer led to me being beaten in 2019 and my family threatened and myself continually subject to death threats.

00:06:34.420 And their response is, how could you be against a movement that calls itself anti-fascist?

00:06:40.560 If you're against anti-fascism, it means you're fascist. 0.97

00:06:43.480 If you're against Black Lives Matter, that means you are against black people. 0.77

00:06:49.800 So, you know, this is what makes these movements so clever.

00:06:53.340 It's very, the branding of it in the slogans and all that allow a certain amount of deflection of criticism.

00:07:02.520 And unfortunately, they've used that very well in that the media has not really applied a critical lens on the violent extremist rhetoric, the violent extremist ideology, and their violent extremist actions.

00:07:16.160 So they've been given a free pass, essentially.

00:07:18.640 So there are a lot of people on the left, I would say liberals, who obviously when they hear something like being against fascism, being against anti-black racism, being against the racist police brutality, these are things they want to be a part of.

00:07:36.620 And they go out to these demonstrations and essentially are used as human shields in these larger protests that at a moment's instance turn into violent riots.

00:07:51.080 And that's what happened that I witnessed myself in Portland, but other cities, the riots that happened particularly at the end of May after the death of George Floyd was ostensibly under this banner of Black Lives Matter and racial justice.

00:08:05.820 But there was really no way for these protests to not be hijacked by violent extremists who did it over and over and over.

00:08:17.260 And in the case of Portland, over 120 days of daily riots, every day, happening every night.

00:08:26.080 It since then has been now weekly since about September.

00:08:31.320 But this is an issue that's not going away. And people assumed wrongly that after the election win of Joe Biden in November, that, you know, this is the end of Antifa, you know, Democrats coming into power, we're not going to see an issue wrong.

00:08:48.260 We had really bad riots in Portland and Seattle just the day after the election.

00:08:55.940 You know, we were recording this just on the heels of what happened on New Year's Eve in Portland of dozens and dozens of Antifa Black Bloc rioters trying to break into a government building in downtown with hammers, using hatchets.

00:09:09.840 They came with explosives.

00:09:11.660 They were throwing explosives at police.

00:09:14.100 They were throwing homemade paint bombs that had been laced with a caustic substance.

00:09:19.760 So, and the thing is, like, a lot of people also know my work through the Antifa mugshots

00:09:26.240 that I've been posting throughout the year, going through public records,

00:09:29.100 finding out names, finding out charges, finding the booking photos.

00:09:32.480 And I released all of this and I looked into all of it because

00:09:35.380 the overwhelming majority of these people, particularly in left-wing cities,

00:09:41.920 had their charges dropped.

00:09:44.520 So the underlying variables that had made Antifa

00:09:48.140 such a destabilizing threat in some American cities,

00:09:51.720 those variables are still here and they remain to be here

00:09:55.100 even as Trump leaves office in a matter of days.

00:09:59.040 But I just want to touch on, 0.99

00:10:00.720 so you use the term useful idiots about these people who go out 0.99

00:10:03.500 and they go on BLM marches and all the rest of it. 0.99

00:10:06.540 But it is not just people.

00:10:07.820 These are also corporations, Andy.

00:10:09.180 If you look at the Premier League, which is a football, it is football, not soccer, you need to know that,

00:10:15.640 which is our soccer league, which is broadcast right around the world, we have footballers taking the need.

00:10:22.160 We have Britain's Got Talent, where they had pictures of the Black Lives Matter fist. 1.00

00:10:26.700 Why is it it's not just individuals, but corporations as well being taken in by this?

00:10:32.180 Well, this is what makes the BLM Antifa movement dangerous, in my opinion.

00:10:38.120 is not necessarily these on the larger scale relatively isolated instances of street violence

00:10:44.680 they are isolated at the aggregate level what makes them dangerous is that the ideology is

00:10:49.680 mainstream not just through mainstream democrat politicians but you look at corporations you look

00:10:55.820 at very big influential figures i mean you know the mayor of london uh apparently approved having

00:11:03.580 these BLM FIS logos, you know, blasted out on your New Year's Eve fireworks celebrations.

00:11:12.200 And that's, you know, nobody abouts an eye, that's sort of just...

00:11:14.620 He's all about unity, Andy.

00:11:16.220 Yeah, right. 0.75

00:11:16.900 Yeah, and, you know, BLM, whereas, you know, they chant for police officers to be killed.

00:11:24.020 In the case of Portland, nobody would come out to criticize Antifa or BLM because, well,

00:11:30.860 they believe that these people are fighting for a noble cause and this is the thing too these

00:11:37.280 corporations these capitalist corporations who have benefited immensely under free markets are

00:11:44.880 also then channeling money to many of these radical non-profit organizations that are working

00:11:52.100 really to undermine society in the case of portland we have actually one antifa organization called

00:11:59.340 SnackBlock, who recently got non-profit status. And they actually got $145,000 U.S. dollars grant

00:12:06.680 through the federal government that was dispersed to the state of Oregon. And local officials

00:12:12.020 gave $145,000 to this for ostensibly COVID relief. And then you go on their social media and you look,

00:12:19.820 they're posting pictures of police officers being, drawings of them being decapitated,

00:12:24.420 saying other retweeting promotional flyers for riot events earlier this year and it's like

00:12:31.900 we are funding our own distractions here in the west here in liberal democratic states

00:12:39.300 francis brought up the the involvement of corporations but as you explained to us the

00:12:44.720 last time we had you on the show one of the biggest problems in your city in portland has

00:12:48.660 been the fact that the mayor is also the police commissioner. Yes. And so until very recently,

00:12:56.380 he was very much on their side, it would seem. And essentially, what I want to ask you is,

00:13:02.840 how has this happened, Andy? Because, and maybe this is the Russian in me coming out, but

00:13:07.240 if people wanted to burn stuff down on the streets of Moscow, it wouldn't happen for very long. Yet

00:13:14.860 this has happened in America for eight months. How has it been allowed to happen? Because we've

00:13:20.900 seen police officers there trying to do something about it. We've seen even federal officers, I

00:13:25.280 think, coming to some of these places. Why has it been possible for these people to set up

00:13:31.280 autonomous zones, like try and make a new country in the middle of Seattle? How has that been

00:13:37.460 enabled and by whom? So this is what I mean when I say like it's like the acts, the consequences

00:13:44.500 in mainstreaming the far left extremist ideology of BLM Antifa has real life consequences in that

00:13:51.920 it's been very strategic in delegitimizing law enforcement in America to the point of where you

00:13:58.320 have police departments in major cities like Portland, Seattle, New York, where they're

00:14:05.620 essentially hemorrhaging. And on top of that, they're being defunded by the tens of millions.

00:14:09.820 So in the case of New York City, $1 billion was slashed in their budget, with crime already skyrocketing.

00:14:17.040 So there's, on one level, a lack of resources in being able to respond.

00:14:22.160 And that's what happened, particularly this year in Portland, with many officers either resigning or taking early retirement from the Portland Police Department.

00:14:31.180 and uh the bureau is unable to bring in uh new officers to replace what's being lost because

00:14:38.580 nobody wants to go into now um what should be a noble institution policing uh when it's seen

00:14:45.420 when you're demonized than when you are dogs um when you get attacked in in in some unfortunate

00:14:53.460 cases um killed for political reasons so yeah there's the lack of resources and then there's

00:15:00.720 also the political involvement in these calculations from things that the mayor let's say

00:15:06.800 of Portland who's the police commissioner but even beyond him the city council itself

00:15:11.800 they exert immense political pressure over police departments not just in Portland in any city

00:15:18.020 so even though they are supposed to be separate from one another they are linked because if a

00:15:25.460 police department has no political support from the city council and elected officials

00:15:29.720 It will really restrict what they're able to do.

00:15:33.100 So in the case of Portland, in addition to the policing issues,

00:15:39.080 we also have a so-called progressive prosecutor who is elected.

00:15:45.060 So in the US, our district attorneys are also known as prosecutors.

00:15:50.800 This is an elected position.

00:15:53.160 So you can imagine if you are living in a city like Portland or Seattle

00:15:58.020 where it's entirely left-wing and like in progressive there's all the incentive in the

00:16:03.780 world to be a prosecutor who's who will be politically motivated in his or her prosecutions

00:16:09.780 that's happened in seattle and importantly we have somebody new come in who campaigned on a

00:16:16.360 platform of restorative justice which means essentially going easy on criminals so important

00:16:23.880 we've had over a thousand right related arrest arrestees you know that more than 90 percent

00:16:31.060 have had their charges dropped so the same people literally and if you look through um my post of

00:16:37.460 anti-mug shots these people being rearrested three four five six seven eight times and just

00:16:44.240 coming out they're arrested in jail they get let out with no bail and they're back out and their

00:16:49.240 charges are dropped they just do the same thing again but it's not just portland you've seen that

00:16:53.300 you see that in other cities so all of these issues are coming together to create um

00:16:59.180 it's a erosion of the rule of law and also like our foundational norms in society one that we

00:17:07.780 don't solve disagreements through violence now people are doing that and to the point of where

00:17:12.880 you'll see commentators on news media you'll see opinion pieces in our biggest papers of records

00:17:19.280 It's arguing that property destruction is not violence.

00:17:23.620 That is a mainstream talking point on the liberal left in America.

00:17:27.620 It's over here as well.

00:17:28.960 See? So this is what I mean in my book,

00:17:33.660 that I say that this is what makes Antifa so radical and dangerous.

00:17:38.240 I'm not talking about instances of them rioting for one night or two nights,

00:17:42.360 or, you know, Portland's quite extraordinary

00:17:44.440 in that we had more than six months of nightly violence.

00:17:47.700 But it's what it does to the institutions of liberal democracy.

00:17:53.860 On top of that, you're having people now who they're openly, physically assaulting people who have political disagreements with them.

00:18:03.740 And they're getting cheered on for it by frequently politicians, mainstream media.

00:18:11.220 They'll turn a blind eye to it.

00:18:12.860 um so like i have um i have a lot of despair in being in that you know my warnings to the city

00:18:23.200 going back city of portland and other places in america going back years i've been writing about

00:18:28.540 this issue for a long time i didn't want to be right and in the end not only was i right i

00:18:34.600 actually underestimated antifa i don't i did not think that they could have done what they did

00:18:39.360 particularly in my hometown in 2020 but that they were able to carry out six months of carnage and

00:18:45.180 get away with it essentially very very few people have been held accountable and one issue is that

00:18:51.420 a lot of them uh aren't can't be identified because of the black bloc um but even then

00:18:59.240 frequently when they are identified then their charges are dropped anyway so like portland is

00:19:04.080 a harbinger for other places in america and i think more broadly obviously what what political

00:19:09.580 trends happens in america it's also then exported to your country i think i mean blm has taken root

00:19:17.020 in britain and blm thank you for that andy um we're very i'm sorry we're very grateful yeah

00:19:23.100 thank you you know blm your country has an entirely different history and context for its

00:19:28.860 relationship between

00:19:30.620 police officer and

00:19:33.220 citizens. There's also the history

00:19:35.080 of black citizens here.

00:19:36.840 But for some reason BLM has taken

00:19:39.020 root here anyways.

00:19:41.460 This is why

00:19:42.600 it really is a worldwide

00:19:44.780 threat, I think, to

00:19:46.920 liberal democracy.

00:19:49.260 And

00:19:49.440 the damage that it's been

00:19:52.860 able to do in just

00:19:54.340 a mere three and a half

00:19:56.920 years uh has been immense and the issues are not going away uh even after trump has lost we still

00:20:03.760 have had continued riots um there are multiple cities that had new coordinated new year's eve

00:20:09.260 riots uh we're likely it's going to continue because all like i said before all the variables

00:20:14.980 are there in the so-called threat of fascism from the trump administration was always

00:20:21.840 of a pretext just an excuse used to excuse their violent extremist behaviors but if it's not one

00:20:32.020 thing it's another thing you know if it's not trump it's police if it's not police it's america

00:20:37.540 itself well you see them defacing uh democratic politicians homes homes now with things

00:20:43.060 scribbling cancel rent and all this other stuff on that's right yeah we had i they

00:20:49.640 this is what i've been trying so i i hope that some people on the liberal left in america will

00:20:56.100 read my book because this threat to america is not just a threat to the american right

00:21:02.800 it's really going at the heart of um american institutions which includes the democrat party

00:21:11.400 so we've had for example on city council in portland one one of the new city council members

00:21:18.640 there were anti-forb rioters who showed up to his home and began breaking things

00:21:23.320 because as punishment for him voting against defunding further Portland police.

00:21:30.400 And he's a left winger.

00:21:32.200 So, you know, they have these extremists, they have no issues targeting the left

00:21:36.620 when they want to, and they do do it.

00:21:40.820 So their own stated goal is to essentially abolish America,

00:21:47.580 Abolish nation states.

00:21:50.300 Broadway's smash hit, The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise, is coming to Toronto.

00:21:56.120 The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more, featuring all the songs you love,

00:22:01.380 including America, Forever in Blue Jeans, and Sweet Caroline.

00:22:05.380 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here, The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise.

00:22:12.260 April 28th through June 7th, 2026, The Princess of Wales Theatre.

00:22:16.720 Get tickets at Mirvish.com.

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00:23:56.720 You knew that bit off by heart.

00:24:00.460 And Andy, one thing that I really wanted to tap into

00:24:03.540 is obviously your Vietnamese heritage.

00:24:05.960 Vietnam obviously has a very, very long and troubled history

00:24:10.680 with the far left, communism in particular.

00:24:12.820 Do you think that is the reason that you were more sensitive to these particular groups

00:24:18.300 and you were able to see through their modus operandi, as it were,

00:24:22.940 whereas American people who are your age or below have no real knowledge of far-left politics

00:24:29.940 and the danger that these particular groups can cause?

00:24:34.560 Yeah, you know, journalists are trained to remove yourself from the story.

00:24:42.820 For good reason, right?

00:24:43.940 You don't want to make yourself part of the story on things that you're reporting on.

00:24:47.740 But for me, as I was writing about Antifa going back several years, I just found that it was extremely hard to sort of entirely remove myself in that my family's experience living through a communist revolution, going to prison camps, being persecuted entirely for political reasons.

00:25:10.780 it mirrors a lot of what i'm seeing people on the american far left

00:25:18.360 stating that they want to do essentially um isn't that an exaggeration andy are they really saying

00:25:27.260 we want to put people in camps are they really saying we need to uh you know put someone in

00:25:33.040 prison for 25 years for having the wrong political view are they really saying that is that when you

00:25:37.320 embed yourself in their protest is that what they're talking about no it's not exaggeration

00:25:41.280 they've killed people over political disagreements important and they tried to kill and gotten

00:25:46.200 themselves killed as well people who say antifa is not a deadly movement let's look at what they've

00:25:51.120 done okay in 2019 you had a man named and i write about this in the book um charles landerose this

00:25:57.800 is in eugene oregon it's a small college town very left wing he shortly before going to a school

00:26:05.760 and launching an attempted shooting on school resource officers. 1.00

00:26:09.180 He had written anti-police stuff on his face, but kill police, kill pigs. 0.99

00:26:13.960 And he was deeply involved in the anti-fo movement in Eugene. 0.99

00:26:16.880 And he got killed in the process of his attack.

00:26:19.240 You had, later in the year, Willem van Spransen, which is in Tacoma, Washington state.

00:26:24.440 He firebombed an immigration facility and came to arms with a rifle.

00:26:30.860 He got killed in the process, but blew up a car.

00:26:33.040 there was connor betts in ohio who killed nine people in a mass shooting who had has had a long

00:26:42.020 history of antifa activism including in being in the black block and just months ago in portland

00:26:50.200 we had somebody who quote this was in his instagram manifesto i am 100 antifa following a trump

00:26:57.560 supporter in downtown portland waiting around the corner ambushing him and shooting him dead

00:27:02.740 right in the middle of downtown and fleeing to another state

00:27:06.460 before getting killed by federal authorities.

00:27:09.240 So, but Andy, those are all individual cases,

00:27:11.760 which I completely, obviously very sad and shouldn't be encouraged at all.

00:27:16.220 But that doesn't necessarily mean that because there's a few wackos in a movement,

00:27:21.300 that those people are then, you know,

00:27:24.060 they're representative of the ideas behind the movement.

00:27:27.640 So what we were talking about initially is your Vietnamese background.

00:27:31.440 And look, as someone who came, was born in the Soviet Union, Francis as well, his mother being from Venezuela, we get all this, right?

00:27:37.980 But what I'm trying to get at is, are they actually saying we need to create gulags for wrong thinkers?

00:27:44.300 They are saying that when they aren't explicitly calling for their political opponents to be killed.

00:27:50.080 Yeah.

00:27:50.780 I mean, you just look at how they treat dissidents, so-called dissidents of people who they suspect of not being completely on their side in areas where they've claimed territory.

00:28:00.460 they beat up journalists in their so-called autonomous zones you know they even had uh

00:28:06.700 one of my friends and acquaintance who was recording video in the seattle autonomous zone

00:28:12.500 he they saw him with the camera and they tried to pull him into an interrogation tent that they

00:28:17.900 had set up there and he was literally if your little autonomous zone needs an interrogation

00:28:24.060 tent might not be quite as friendly as you're pretending right yeah so his name is caitlin

00:28:29.400 almeida so you can go online and look at his testimony for that but i mean police were called

00:28:34.800 he was like dragged on the street literally before being escaped so you you know you don't

00:28:40.300 just have to look at what they say you look at their actions they even though they say they are

00:28:45.540 against governments what essentially they do want to create is a totalitarian system essentially

00:28:51.460 where there's because their opposition is not just to people who say things that they disagree

00:28:59.200 with they don't want you to think differently which is why they spend so much effort in getting

00:29:04.740 people banned off social media so exploiting the left-wing bias that is prevalent on in big tech

00:29:12.960 social media companies getting their opposition banned um getting them fired doxing them releasing

00:29:20.600 information where they live uh work etc and terrorizing their opponents so i don't think

00:29:28.580 You know, there's a certain amount of parallels, and yes, there are differences, obviously, with the Vietnamese communist regime from the American context.

00:29:39.820 But broadly, it is about a revolutionary, far less politics, about achieving their goals by any means necessary, including violence.

00:29:51.780 I think, actually, I know if they had the power, they would imprison their political opponents if they didn't kill them outright.

00:29:58.580 because you just look at their actions on a small-scale level

00:30:01.540 and look when they've actually had gained power temporarily in Charles

00:30:06.060 or in Portland's autonomous zone, what they do to people.

00:30:10.320 Have you ever been abroad and felt out of place because you didn't speak the language?

00:30:14.480 No, because I voted Brexit.

00:30:16.700 Brexit means Brexit. 0.78

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00:31:23.900 And Andy, who is a typical member of Antifa?

00:31:28.520 Do they tend to be from one particular background or another,

00:31:31.280 or are they spread far and wide from every echelon of society?

00:31:35.820 It is spread far and wide.

00:31:37.460 One myth that I do want to dispel is that they're all middle-class, wealthy people.

00:31:45.660 Some of them are upper class as well.

00:31:48.680 Some of them do represent people who are university educated in white-collar jobs.

00:31:53.900 Absolutely. And actually, the Antifa were so furious that I was publicizing these booking, public records of these booking photos from these six months of arrests in Portland because, you know, it exposed that some of them were in white collar jobs, such as being nurses, being doctors, being professors, being academics, being university students at private, expensive elite institutions.

00:32:21.000 there's all that but i would say it really it includes this is what i mean this ideology does

00:32:31.080 appeal to people who are do well in america and as well as people who are really vulnerable

00:32:37.420 and this is kind of where my i i have a certain i don't know if compassion is right where it's

00:32:43.820 sympathy for some of these people who are used as tools foot soldiers in these mass rights people

00:32:50.880 who are many of them are vagrants a lot of them are dealing with mental health issues a lot of

00:32:55.900 them are have gender dysphoria and they're being pulled into a ideology movement that promises them 0.85

00:33:05.400 community meaning purpose belonging i mean you have a uniform you have a identity and label that

00:33:13.600 you go under as a anti-fascist so-called anti-fascist and they have a lot of literature

00:33:20.160 as well booklets pamphlets like if you read my book on masks you'll see that the radicalization

00:33:26.920 process is really important in antifa it's a lot of brainwashing actually and it takes a lot of

00:33:31.920 brainwashing to get people who go from broadly being sympathetic to some of these things let's

00:33:38.240 say racial justice to eventually being one of the people who mask up and bring let's say knives or

00:33:46.020 tasers or molotov cocktails and other firebombs to these riots with the intent um to kill people

00:33:53.140 and this process happens um not spontaneously but through these radicalization stuff and how

00:33:59.580 does it happen tell us more about that just take us through i'm a sort of this radicalizes andy

00:34:04.680 yeah radicalizes into antifa live on air no but seriously so here i am i'm disaffected with

00:34:11.640 society i'm very progressive in my mindset maybe i'm i've got some mental health issues i here i

00:34:17.920 am i've come in and your your job is to get me to the point where i'm ready to go on a riot how does

00:34:23.540 that happen so there are let's say i say in portland they have it down to an art there are

00:34:29.280 the street militants and then there are other antifa groups who don't explicitly engage in

00:34:36.420 street violence but they'll do things like uh community events support uh supportive like

00:34:45.000 direct action where they'll do things that ostensibly look like charity work just distributing

00:34:49.600 food to those in their community um protesting peacefully all of that if you go to any of these

00:34:57.420 events in addition to the food and supplies that they're distributing for free they will always

00:35:03.940 have tables of their booklets and it's very similar actually to i would say like a radicalization

00:35:11.100 process of like the muslim brotherhood or other uh islamists or even jihadists really you introduce

00:35:18.700 them to certain theories theories about why why capitalism is inherently linked to racism how it's

00:35:27.400 connected to slavery and how america as protecting capitalism property free markets um is uh in

00:35:38.000 imperialist state of racism that support that um upholds white supremacy like in a lot of these

00:35:45.520 ideas are actually um they're in academic and intellectual and they're simplified in these

00:35:51.400 booklets and pamphlets that are given out um nelly bowls for the new york reporter new york times who

00:35:57.380 who went up to portland to cover some of these violent protests and riots in portland

00:36:01.120 wrote about some of these booklets and pamphlets antifa were really angry about that sort of like

00:36:06.760 national spotlight that are brought to it but there's very few people paying attention because

00:36:11.100 if you walk by you do think it's just another table of just like things that people are handing

00:36:16.620 out that actually forms a very important part in their um how they're introducing what they call

00:36:23.220 radical ideas to others and in chas they have the same thing in the recent autonomous zone in

00:36:29.540 portland so you know you you start building friendships these friends start introducing

00:36:34.980 these extremist ideas they have gatherings and meetings in the case of road city antifa which

00:36:41.440 my book uh publishes some of their documents for the first time they will actually have a

00:36:46.480 a curriculum that's really kind of like a university curriculum that they'll meet weekly

00:36:51.320 in a secret place they'll have a set of literature they and they each week is supposed to read they'll

00:36:57.880 discuss it um and what are some of the central themes so i've come i've got a pamphlet i've got

00:37:03.740 my sandwich i've got my pamphlet i'm like okay well yeah there are problems with capitalism maybe

00:37:08.320 it's because america is inherently racist or whatever now i've come to the meeting for the

00:37:13.040 first time what what are you telling me to get me into that the main themes or the main points of

00:37:18.800 their radical ideas that they're trying to brainwash people into believing is that

00:37:24.800 non-violence empowers the state and the state enforces fascism, that property rights is linked

00:37:36.640 to racism, linked to a system of white supremacy. So these two things, hatred of a nation and hatred

00:37:43.380 of property rights those are probably the two main ideas and they have a particular hatred for

00:37:50.120 law enforcement because they view law enforcement well as the literal enforcers of the rules of the

00:37:57.520 state if the state is fascist they are then the fascist boots on the ground enforcing the fascist

00:38:02.700 laws so this whole using black lives matter in opposition to police is just it's it's been a

00:38:09.760 very convenient and perfect way for them to make their really extreme ideas palatable to a wider

00:38:15.680 public. And they have immense success. I mean, look at the calls to defund and abolish police

00:38:22.720 happening in city councils across America. And Andy, they don't also, it's not just a process

00:38:28.380 of indoctrination mentally, but also physically. They get taught how to fight. They get taught how

00:38:33.300 to various other things as well. Could you delve into that for us?

00:38:37.300 So the really organized militant Antifa groups are extremely secretive because, I mean, they explicitly, they have a membership process and in all intents and purposes, they are a gang and they will plan out criminal violent activity.

00:38:56.440 So they keep all the activities secret. And in a press and media who, unfortunately, are very not curious, have not dived into trying to uncover really how they organize.

00:39:11.220 I mean, in my book, I was able to acquire the documentation from the oldest American Antifa group, which is Rose City Antifa.

00:39:18.740 Now, absolutely, if you look at the documentations, the emails to one another, it completely blows over this claim that Antifa doesn't exist as an organization, that they're not organized.

00:39:33.780 I mean, the thing is, Antifa is not one entity.

00:39:37.400 There are many, many Antifa groups.

00:39:39.080 There are networks of them.

00:39:39.900 The Torch Network is the network that's probably the most violently militant.

00:39:44.520 Rose City Antifa is a part of that but they have chapters in seven other cities so there's a

00:39:51.860 blueprint for how they organize and I think that's what was really shocking about the the curriculum

00:40:00.880 for Rose City Antifa which you can read in detail in the book is that they were holding these secret

00:40:06.320 meetings at a bookstore in Portland so on the outside it looks so innocuous you would never

00:40:13.000 would think that a feminist bookstore was allowing its space to be used by extremists 1.00

00:40:21.360 literal violent extremists I would say it's it's a terrorist ideology actually you know they they

00:40:27.480 spend so much time into brainwashing their members that violence is a necessity to achieve their

00:40:33.520 goals. But you're saying they're a terrorist ideology but in your book what's very very

00:40:38.380 interesting is that you examine the antecedents of Antifa. And the fact is, like everything under

00:40:43.760 the sun, this is nothing new. There was, I think, the Biden-Meinhof group in the 60s, but there was

00:40:51.080 also the far left and the far right organization in Weimar, in Germany, in the interwar years.

00:40:57.880 Could you explain to us a little bit about that as well? So since Trump has come into office,

00:41:02.840 the american press the international press and in western countries has gone really overdrive

00:41:09.260 until focusing entirely on this on um threats to violence that come from the far right and

00:41:17.860 white racists and really fringe more neo-nazi groups and that threat is absolutely there but

00:41:24.080 it is small but that's all that they paid attention to america has had a history of

00:41:31.680 far-left violent extremism that a lot of young people, people my age, aren't aware of the

00:41:37.180 violence that we had in the 60s and 70s, which was quelled or squashed because of law enforcement

00:41:44.900 imprisoning some of these members, charging them. Many of them fled abroad to Cuba where they were

00:41:53.380 given um uh refugee status there so america has had a history of far-left violent extremes 0.57

00:42:02.440 people who killed law enforcement who carried out bombings for example um germany as well and so

00:42:09.960 there's this history in building blocks that antifa takes from to do what they're able to do

00:42:19.860 today and there's just there's a gap in the collective american memory i would say of far

00:42:25.940 left extremism that they think and and that is actually quite intentional i would say about the

00:42:31.680 media they really they downplay and they ignore it entirely i mean you know you can contrast let's

00:42:37.460 say two mass shootings that we had in 2019 in the u.s so there was a um reportedly far-right racist

00:42:46.440 white supremacists in Texas who killed some 20-something people at a Walmart and the people

00:42:52.820 were majority of Latino background and that received a lot of media attention not one because

00:42:59.300 it was a mass killing and two because of the potential racist links and allegations relating

00:43:08.340 to that but within 24 hours after that shooting we had the mass shooting in Ohio from Connor Betts

00:43:13.600 who I talked about a moment ago, an anti-farm mass shooter

00:43:16.120 who, if you looked through his social media history,

00:43:20.180 was not just identified as part of it,

00:43:22.800 but like explicitly calling for violence against the right.

00:43:27.720 He carried out a mass shooting and that didn't get as much attention

00:43:31.980 or much attention at all.

00:43:33.160 And is that all about Trump, Andy?

00:43:35.220 Is this what happened?

00:43:36.840 2016, Trump gets elected.

00:43:38.920 Media are shocked not only because he is a shocking figure

00:43:42.860 to people on the sort of liberal,

00:43:46.120 what you guys call it liberal,

00:43:47.840 we don't call it liberal here,

00:43:48.920 but on the left, let's say,

00:43:50.720 if you're a left-wing person in the media,

00:43:52.620 to you the election of Donald Trump

00:43:54.140 is a shock to the system.

00:43:55.680 And you're going,

00:43:57.040 well, he needs to be got rid of

00:43:59.440 by any means necessary.

00:44:01.060 So you're sort of like,

00:44:02.380 yeah, okay, look, this stuff may be happening,

00:44:04.340 but let's just focus on getting rid of Donald Trump.

00:44:06.260 Is that what happened?

00:44:08.060 It is what happened.

00:44:09.740 I think Trump derangement syndrome

00:44:12.660 room is real and you particularly saw it in journalists journalists who uh before his

00:44:17.440 election led uh long uh distinguished careers um and at times may have been biased but not to the

00:44:25.560 level of what i would call really unprofessional behavior and reporting that you see now so surely

00:44:33.020 with that in mind you alluded to to your opinion about this earlier but trump you know he's gone

00:44:38.760 right we've got a brilliant new you know mixed race ticket uh racism is over everything's going

00:44:45.300 to be wonderful uh there is no more need for street violence because we're going to fix all

00:44:49.860 all the bad stuff uh if only if only that was the case the thing is if you've been paying attention

00:45:01.020 to the rhetoric of blm and antifa particularly throughout 2020 it's shifted very clearly away

00:45:08.300 from opposition to Trump to opposition to the United States itself.

00:45:16.080 So they're not going to be satisfied until they can destroy anything

00:45:19.060 and everything they can.

00:45:20.980 So, you know, they have goals that really can not ever really be achieved

00:45:27.100 in that if it's not one issue that they are protesting against,

00:45:32.900 it's another, and if it's not that, it's another after that.

00:45:35.520 It's these people who can never, ever be satisfied.

00:45:39.180 I mean, when you say you are against white supremacy and fascism

00:45:43.520 and you define it in the way they define it,

00:45:45.980 which includes anything and everything,

00:45:48.100 that means their goals can never be achieved.

00:45:50.000 So they are always going to have a reason to be violent.

00:45:53.540 They found a reason to be violent in Portland and Atlanta

00:45:57.920 and other cities on New Year's Eve, you know,

00:46:01.100 because it's the new year.

00:46:02.100 It's the new year to renew our dedication to fighting fascism

00:46:05.260 and racism so we're going to riot we're going to bring weapons to downtown portland so um

00:46:11.720 and i mean if it's not clear enough that this is antifa is a violent extremist dangerous movement

00:46:18.980 you can just look at like who they say that they are inspired by and take influence from which is

00:46:26.940 the original antifa which was a paramilitary of the german communist party so that was the original

00:46:33.600 antifa the logos that you see today or the flags was is based off a design from that originally

00:46:39.240 so the original paramilitary of the german antifa they were engaging in street fights

00:46:45.040 in germany not just against uh the brown shirts and fascists but actually the social democrats

00:46:52.880 they were fighting and beating up all political opponents and they were creating this political

00:46:59.700 climate of political polarization in Germany, in interwar Germany, and making the wider public

00:47:09.900 just wanting all that street political violence to end. And I think some academics have posited

00:47:16.600 that that context helped pave the way for the appeal of somebody like a Hitler.

00:47:25.600 So what you're saying is these people aren't really anti-fascist.

00:47:29.120 They're pro-anarchy. 0.71

00:47:31.020 And chaos.

00:47:32.420 Yes.

00:47:33.780 Yes.

00:47:34.040 And I actually, I think a lot of them are probably upset that Trump's going out

00:47:38.580 because they really, they use that so well as an excuse to get,

00:47:42.480 to bring in new allies.

00:47:44.680 But they've carefully have now switched the enemy from Trump to law enforcement.

00:47:51.640 And they've been successful in bringing out people there.

00:47:54.620 So, you know, all it really takes is just a very simple video of some unfortunate incident that is then taken out of context to mobilize not just thousands, but tens of thousands of people, not just in my country, but your country as well, and other countries around the world.

00:48:13.320 That's how effective their messaging has been.

00:48:15.960 And although Biden is a more moderate Democrat, you look at the people who have influence in the Democrat Party, people like AOC, people like Ilhan Omar, the radicals, people who are just state representatives in Congress, one of many.

00:48:39.500 but they have such an outsizing large influence on the party that their messaging will is going

00:48:49.760 to play into the decisions of the dnc in my opinion in my predictions and andy how do we

00:48:56.820 defeat them so you've we've explained it we've looked at the type of people who are involved in

00:49:03.180 this ideology the fact that they're anarchists that they want chaos that they thrive on this

00:49:07.660 obviously it is not in our interest or anybody's interest that these people are successful

00:49:13.140 so how do we defeat number one the group and number two the ideology

00:49:16.640 I'll start for the easier of the two defeating the movement itself means is essentially doing

00:49:27.140 what's been done in the past so how law enforcement were able in the U.S. to end

00:49:32.380 the terrorism far-left communist revolutionaries in the 70s were to arrest prosecute in jail those

00:49:43.160 who were involved in the criminal activities and that hugely disrupted their networks as well

00:49:49.380 unfortunately all these people have been released from prison and have been reincorporated into

00:49:56.120 left-wing activism and their past actions people just look over their past criminal actions

00:50:04.400 so there's that you don't necessarily need new laws although i think let's say in your country

00:50:13.740 you have laws that prescribe certain organizations and groups that are applied to jihadist groups

00:50:21.220 for example and far-right groups i think that should be applied to far-left groups

00:50:25.880 in america we don't have those type of laws because of how strong our first amendment is

00:50:32.140 you know anything that could be interpreted as um persecuting people for their beliefs even if

00:50:40.480 there are violent extremist beliefs you can have those radical beliefs it's protected by the first

00:50:46.380 amendment that's why it's not it's not illegal to be a member of a neo-nazi group it's not

00:50:52.300 illegal to be a member of a violent antifa group so what needs to happen is the rioters are being

00:51:01.800 arrested though they're not being held accountable so this is an issue with prosecutors being elected

00:51:09.140 and i'm not quite sure what the solution would be but obviously it means people waking up and

00:51:14.680 realizing that going soft on rioters just because they say they're doing it in the noble cause like

00:51:22.860 that that this really requires a paradigm shift i think in the american mind that so that we elect

00:51:31.280 prosecutors who actually uphold the law and do you think it's a question of education andy the

00:51:36.980 fact that most americans don't know about communism like we touched on before you know they haven't

00:51:41.660 been educated about it, the dangers and the evils of the far left? Yes, absolutely. There's just not

00:51:47.580 a lot of knowledge. People aren't really aware that we had far left communist Marxist cells in

00:51:55.480 the 70s that were doing kidnappings and bank robberies and killing law enforcement and carrying

00:52:00.960 out bombing attacks. They just don't know about that. Whereas, you know, anytime you ask them

00:52:05.600 about right-wing extremism,

00:52:07.960 everybody can remember things

00:52:09.960 and they don't let things go.

00:52:12.600 And, you know, this is somewhat related.

00:52:15.680 It's just like Heather Heyer, 0.94

00:52:18.920 who was killed in Charlottesville,

00:52:20.800 like her name is regularly mentioned

00:52:22.760 and it should be mentioned

00:52:23.560 because I think her life didn't matter.

00:52:27.120 But Erin Danielson,

00:52:29.340 which is the person who was shot in Portland,

00:52:31.020 nobody knows his name.

00:52:32.120 Nobody remembers him.

00:52:33.000 Nobody all knows him.

00:52:33.700 None of the politicians uttered his name in Portland when that killing happened.

00:52:38.040 So it's just, and it was because he was killed by somebody who explicitly said he was Antifa.

00:52:43.000 Do you think that's it, Andy?

00:52:44.020 There's a lack of moral equivalence between the two

00:52:46.840 because a far-right extremist is viewed as the most evil thing you can think of. 0.98

00:52:51.940 They're racist, they're prejudiced, they're bigoted, 0.68

00:52:55.000 you tie it to slavery in your mind, all of that sort of stuff. 0.86

00:52:58.960 Whereas if it's someone on the far left, it's easier to excuse

00:53:02.080 because you're going, well, they're probably well-intentioned, aren't they?

00:53:04.700 They just want everyone to be equal.

00:53:06.460 There's that lack of judging an act on the basis of the act

00:53:11.840 because we buy into this idea that this murderer is better than that murderer

00:53:16.220 because this murderer actually used some kind of good motivation for their violence.

00:53:22.020 And that's the problem.

00:53:23.240 The problem reinforced by the media is that it's wrong to criticize both the far left and the far right in the same breath because they can't be compared because the far left, even if they are violent, they are doing it for racial justice, for equity.

00:53:43.420 that, I mean, you know, you'd go down that path of thinking

00:53:47.840 the rational conclusion is it does lead to violent anti-folk extremism

00:53:52.220 or any other type of Marxist terrorism

00:53:54.980 because it's like, well, it's for this cause, right?

00:53:58.300 The cause of the proletariat, 0.89

00:54:02.900 the cause of oppressed racial minorities. 0.99

00:54:06.200 It's okay to kill police. 0.96

00:54:07.400 It's okay to advocate for violence against these people

00:54:10.360 because we're fighting for a noble cause.

00:54:14.160 And for me, it's really immaterial, really what the goal is

00:54:18.400 if the actions that are carried out lead to violence, murder, terrorism.

00:54:26.120 So I think I'm being consistent in my condemnation

00:54:29.780 of the far left and the far right.

00:54:31.160 I wish the media would be too.

00:54:33.840 And I think the other thing is that me personally experiencing

00:54:39.040 the the threats that come from antifa that are directed at me make it more personal because then

00:54:45.000 it's real like antifa will write murder and you know around the city of portland and that graffiti

00:54:52.080 stays up in their autonomous zone recently in portland they wrote my name and an address that

00:54:58.420 stayed up so it's it's unfortunate that there isn't very much solidarity with me from other

00:55:06.560 people who are in the same field and actually it's a lot of other journalists who frequently

00:55:10.340 condemn me and delegitimize my work but you know if any any journalist even just some contributor

00:55:18.060 to small publication received explicit threats from a neo-nazi the whole industry would rally

00:55:24.640 against that person and all the press organizations would as well i mean i've i've reported my threats

00:55:30.920 to Press Freedom Tracker and other groups.

00:55:34.480 And they used to get back to me.

00:55:37.420 They don't anymore, maybe because it's become too frequent.

00:55:39.840 I report all this stuff to law enforcement.

00:55:42.240 They don't do anything.

00:55:44.460 So is that why you've moved to the UK?

00:55:51.460 I've had to flee my country, my home,

00:55:55.460 because of the ongoing threats

00:55:57.940 and the lack of action from law enforcement

00:56:00.920 even when through my own investigations

00:56:03.820 I've been able to identify some of these people.

00:56:06.200 I mean, people who pose with guns

00:56:08.500 and say that bullets need to be put in me,

00:56:11.860 all this type of stuff. 0.72

00:56:15.380 Prosecutors choosing not to prosecute.

00:56:17.500 I mean, you know, in my beating last year,

00:56:19.640 you and I, we talked just a few months

00:56:22.720 after my beating last year.

00:56:25.040 At that time, I was optimistic

00:56:26.340 that they would lead to arrest.

00:56:29.300 No, you know, we, through my own legal counsel,

00:56:33.780 this legal fund, by the way, Center for American Liberty,

00:56:37.820 we had to finance our own private investigation,

00:56:41.560 put in hundreds of our own hours

00:56:43.800 into uncovering some of these people.

00:56:46.260 And then once that information was provided to police

00:56:48.880 and the attorney general, nothing was done.

00:56:53.960 So unfortunately, we're having to sue them

00:56:55.540 through the civil route when these people should be actually held criminally responsible and part

00:57:00.800 look we can talk about you know the academic side of it and you know the you know the fact

00:57:05.340 you know on the left and people don't want to condemn people on there for a variety of reasons 0.78

00:57:09.360 and look isn't part of it just the fact that they're cowards isn't it just simple cowardice

00:57:15.420 as well because it's difficult to do the right thing it's difficult to stand up to a bully

00:57:20.420 and go you're wrong yes i have encountered a lot of cowards unfortunately doing the line of work

00:57:28.840 that i do even i mean this is this is the issue of um you know and you two are not partisan but

00:57:37.720 i i myself am a conservative i think because of the political

00:57:41.460 hegemony that the left has in particularly in journalism they make it quite consequent

00:57:51.160 consequential for people who are critical of the left even the far left and i don't know what it'll

00:57:57.880 take for that to change i mean and i don't want the inverse to happen by the way i don't

00:58:03.020 i don't i would not want to work in an industry let's say that was dominated

00:58:06.860 by the right and a right that was unwilling to condemn far-right extremism right so a moment

00:58:17.800 ago you had asked what does it take to um defeat antifa ideologically and i think it's you know

00:58:24.840 hopefully through efforts like what i am doing with unmasked in this book where i spent months

00:58:30.920 and months at sort of the American epicenter of antsy for violence looking at not just how they

00:58:36.900 organize how they get some of their funding how they carry out coordinated mass violence but

00:58:42.460 looking actually what do they actually believe what does it mean when they say that they are

00:58:47.140 opposing um capitalism when they're opposing u.s imperialism opposing white supremacy what's that

00:58:54.200 actually mean what are they actually advocating for and then we've had now you know a very clear

00:59:02.260 view into what happens when their ideology is actually implemented in a territory and it does

00:59:09.240 lead to death violence the confiscation of property i mean in the portland autonomous zone this is

00:59:16.200 really this didn't get much as much media attention as the chas but they actually create so they 0.99

00:59:22.140 created their own barricades like what they did in chas so they actually had to define territory 0.99

00:59:26.420 they built a wall you could say they built a wall and then they built a buffer zone that was growing

00:59:30.660 every day every day it was moving further and further out and they set booby traps in the street

00:59:35.460 literal booby traps spikes um they were laying out boards with needle um nails sticking up so you

00:59:44.080 could you couldn't drive in they had strategic points where they had bottles um molotov cocktails

00:59:51.800 rocks that they could use as sort of their like attack areas like and they were doing this and

00:59:59.760 this was the official messaging was that they were protecting a black indigenous family from being 0.99

01:00:05.380 removed from their home from being evicted from their home in the winter it's absolute rubbish 0.98

01:00:10.360 it was a lie it was a family who had been squatting out of property that they didn't pay anything for

01:00:16.040 for three years, since 2017.

01:00:18.600 And the legal process had been played out.

01:00:21.520 Court judgment after court judgment,

01:00:23.080 appeals rejected, et cetera, et cetera.

01:00:25.000 These people were illegally squatting.

01:00:28.000 And this is the people who,

01:00:29.500 and they had stockpiled weapons inside this property.

01:00:33.040 And so this is the type of people that they protect.

01:00:35.960 And then the media just goes along

01:00:37.320 with protecting a black indigenous family

01:00:40.000 from eviction in the winter.

01:00:42.180 Yeah, the coverage of this issue,

01:00:44.220 I mean, it's been embarrassing.

01:00:46.040 mainstream publications

01:00:48.220 which is why we're grateful to have people like you

01:00:50.400 who can come and talk about it and as you say

01:00:52.180 Francis and I are not partisan

01:00:54.380 on this issue but we are partisan on

01:00:56.420 non-violence, we're partisan

01:00:58.540 on the rule of law, I mean I think everyone

01:01:00.440 should be partisan on that sort of thing

01:01:02.180 It's very right wing of you mate

01:01:03.100 It's extremely right wing

01:01:04.720 Well it is seen as a right wing position

01:01:06.920 according to people who follow

01:01:10.080 critical race theory and all that

01:01:11.960 Well yeah, I mean

01:01:13.540 logically I can see it

01:01:15.920 If you think the state is fascist, and if you think property rights are fascism, then evicting someone from a property where they're squatting is fascism under that definition.

01:01:26.360 To normal people, it makes no sense, of course.

01:01:28.800 But as Francis said earlier, I think a lot of people simply don't know what they get involved with.

01:01:33.500 To a lot of people, all of this stuff is simply about ensuring justice and equality.

01:01:37.960 and those of us who try and sort of point out

01:01:41.080 some of the underpinnings of this

01:01:42.600 immediately get boxed into, you know, all sorts of categories.

01:01:46.440 But there's nothing we can do about it.

01:01:48.720 What we can do, Andy, is thank you for coming back on the show.

01:01:51.600 It's a pleasure.

01:01:52.280 It's good to see you are well and safe here in this country for now.

01:01:56.860 Hopefully this stuff doesn't come over too much.

01:01:59.620 It's been good to have you back.

01:02:00.720 And as you know, we've got one more question for you.

01:02:02.460 Which is always, what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society,

01:02:06.120 but we really should be?

01:02:07.620 I like that you ask this particular question at the end of every show.

01:02:11.940 I wasn't prepared for it last year, and I don't think I'm that prepared this time either.

01:02:16.820 But I think I have a better answer.

01:02:19.000 I just, I think we need to be panicking about this erosion in the norm of nonviolence in Western liberal democracies.

01:02:29.160 It's like, it's not by chance that we have come to a civilization

01:02:33.780 in a standard, a norm, that you don't resolve disagreements

01:02:38.260 through violence against others.

01:02:40.560 And there has been a very quick and systematic erosion of that,

01:02:45.200 just as a norm, not through the laws,

01:02:46.860 that laws haven't changed in that regard.

01:02:49.340 But I mean, when politics is downstream from culture,

01:02:53.940 quoting Andrew Breitbart,

01:02:55.240 So we're moving into a direction of a culture 1.00

01:02:58.460 where more and more people are believing that the response

01:03:03.340 to grievances is to be violent and destructive.

01:03:08.540 We shouldn't just be talking about that more.

01:03:10.920 We should be panicking about it, in my opinion.

01:03:13.500 That sounds like something we can all fight for.

01:03:17.500 Good pun.

01:03:20.000 I love it when Francis does a joke

01:03:22.060 and the guest just condescendingly looks at him.

01:03:26.100 It's a great ending to show, Andy.

01:03:28.020 Thank you so much for coming back.

01:03:29.540 All the best with your book.

01:03:30.620 It's out on the 2nd of February?

01:03:32.060 Yes.

01:03:32.380 It's out on the 2nd of February.

01:03:33.400 It's called Unmasked.

01:03:34.520 Make sure you get it.

01:03:35.340 It's a brilliant read.

01:03:36.140 There's a historical perspective.

01:03:37.840 And as we've just talked about, Andy has been on the ground documenting all this stuff.

01:03:41.840 So make sure you get Unmasked on the 2nd of February.

01:03:44.620 And we will see you very soon with another brilliant interview like this one.

01:03:48.620 This is probably going to be our last in-person interview for a while.

01:03:51.380 So we hope you've enjoyed it.

01:03:52.840 And we will see you very soon.

01:03:55.240 7 p.m. for a live stream or another interview.

01:03:58.220 Thank you very much, guys.

01:03:59.200 See you soon.

TRIGGERnometry - January 27, 2021

＂Antifa Violence Won't Stop Under Biden＂ - Andy Ngo

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