TRIGGERnometry - Are Politicians Even in Control？

00:00:00.000 They sincerely believe that it's their patriotic duty to stop these, I think his phrase was, these sort of here today, gone tomorrow politicians from doing their sort of crazy schemes.

00:00:14.320 Immigration is a very good example of this because it is an issue on which the same promise is made by successive governments.

00:00:20.500 I know, it's amazing.

00:00:21.480 And then nothing gets done.

00:00:23.040 There's this building rage and it's coming out in all sorts of unpleasant ways, but it's done in the name of compassion.

00:00:30.220 I think that is basically the central kind of theme of almost everything that's going wrong.

00:00:37.580 Hey guys, Trigonometry needs your help.

00:00:40.400 We took a big risk creating the show and for us to keep doing the incredible work that you all love, we need your support.

00:00:48.640 That's the only way we're going to stay independent and create content that you won't be able to find anywhere else.

00:00:54.540 There is no other podcast where you'll hear interviews with Nigel Farage one week and the next week you've got Aaron Bastani, the founder of left-wing show Navarra Media, on the same platform.

00:01:04.400 You know the mainstream media aren't honest.

00:01:07.240 You know they've been caught lying again and again.

00:01:10.400 You know they can't be trusted.

00:01:12.760 The only way to change that is to make a stand and support independent content creators, like Trigonometry, to produce better and more honest content.

00:01:22.500 We have big plans and we'll shortly be announcing exciting new shows and more terrific interviews with huge guests.

00:01:28.600 That isn't going to happen without your help.

00:01:30.820 When you support us, you also get incredible extra content, such as extended interviews with none of those irritating adverts, and they'll be released 24 hours early just for you.

00:01:44.560 We'll have exclusive bonus interviews that only you get to hear.

00:01:48.000 Click the link on the podcast description or find the link on your podcast listening app to join us.

00:01:54.660 Support us and help change the way we have conversations and make the world saner.

00:02:00.820 Steve, last time I was in the U.S., you and I met.

00:02:03.980 Yeah.

00:02:04.340 We went for a drink, ended up being 10 drinks.

00:02:08.260 Minimum.

00:02:08.840 Minimum 10.

00:02:09.500 We had a great time, and you were telling me some horror stories about why the British government can't get anything done.

00:02:16.980 So I thought you were going to start with the horror story of how we tried to get that drink.

00:02:20.440 And there was some, like, do you remember there was an amazingly bureaucratic person in that bar where it was Salt Lake City, wasn't it?

00:02:27.720 It was one, and it felt like being back in the U.K.

00:02:29.480 I know, it's just ridiculous.

00:02:30.500 It's this endless sort of, like, no, you can't sit there and sit there.

00:02:33.420 But it's a very good segue into the story of the bureaucracy in the British government.

00:02:38.540 Yeah, that was the sort of thing that really was an eye-opener.

00:02:41.740 You hear before, you know, I'd been involved in politics before then, and, you know, anyone who reads the press, you hear about the bureaucracy and the civil service and people who'd worked in government, including Tony Blair, who I'd met before the election in 2010 when David Cameron became prime minister and I was working for David Cameron.

00:03:03.020 And in preparing for that time, I went to see Tony Blair to get his advice.

00:03:08.020 You know, he'd been prime minister, and so, you know, it was useful to learn.

00:03:13.260 And he warned about the bureaucracy, and that was amazing to hear from him.

00:03:17.740 Well, he said, I don't want to misquote him, so these aren't necessarily quotes, but he said, and it was a long time ago, I mean, it was over 10 years ago, but he said that, he said, don't, I remember he said, don't underestimate how strong the feeling is on the part of the senior civil servants.

00:03:38.020 That they sincerely believe that it's their patriotic duty to stop these, I think his phrase was, these here today, gone tomorrow politicians from doing their sort of crazy schemes, and that they are the guardians of the national interest.

00:03:54.560 That is sincerely what they think, and you've got to understand that before you go in.

00:03:59.660 So that was really, that was the first kind of really, that was an eye-opener, actually, coming from him.

00:04:06.540 But then when you get there, I mean, it was just, I mean, there's so many aspects to it, but the most interesting thing, I think maybe let's start with this, which was where I really started to dive into exactly what was going on, was pretty soon, I guess, I don't know, a couple of months into the government.

00:04:28.660 And remember, it was a coalition government. And in a way, that was really interesting, because it wasn't like normal, where a party would have a manifesto, and they run in the election, and they win, and then they sort of kind of do what they want.

00:04:41.600 There's no requirement to do everything you say you're going to do. And in fact, a lot of voters get pissed off, because they say the governments don't do what they say they're going to do.

00:04:51.460 This was really interestingly different, in that the Conservative Party, David Cameron was the lead, and we didn't get an overall majority, so he wanted to do a proper coalition government with the Liberal Democrats.

00:05:02.940 And he, like a really long-lasting one, he didn't want it just to be a kind of short-term, will you vote for this bill with us, or whatever.

00:05:12.800 It was like, I want to sit down and negotiate an agreement about what we would do as a kind of coalition government for the five years of a parliamentary term.

00:05:21.760 And that was really interesting, it hadn't really been done before. And so it was hammered out, and we had this document, and actually, you know, like unusual for a government, we had a plan for what we were going to do.

00:05:32.020 And it had been agreed, and it was called the coalition agreement, and we published it. So you think, well, that's great, because now we have a set of commitments that we've negotiated, and that's the plan for what we're going to do.

00:05:43.920 And pretty soon, it was just this interesting revelation, where we became aware of the government announcing things. Sometimes you just hear them on the media, which we either weren't aware of, or didn't really agree with.

00:06:02.020 And it was just this interesting phenomenon, where you think, well, hang on a second, we are the government, so what's going on here?

00:06:08.260 And so I was just interested in that process. And so our team in 10 Downing Street, we did a little analysis of all the different things that the government was doing over the period of, it's about a week, I think.

00:06:23.820 We took all the announcements, and some of them are big, and some of them are small, and they're all done through this process called, I think it's request for policy approval, or policy clearance, where the ministers write to their colleague, the cabinet committees, and say, I want to do this.

00:06:38.900 I'm the education secretary, I want to make this change to how schools are run, or whatever. And if no one objects, it goes ahead. And that's really how it all works.

00:06:48.480 And then we looked at all of that over a certain period, and said, well, how much of that is actually implementing the coalition agreement, the actual thing we're supposed to be doing?

00:07:00.960 And over the course of whatever period we were looking at, the answer was 30%. So 30% of what the government was doing was implementing what it supposedly was the main thing.

00:07:13.660 So what's the rest of it? And it turned out that, I can't remember the exact way around, it was a long time ago, there was another 30% and there was a 40%.

00:07:20.960 And one of them was implementing EU directives. And the other was just random things that the bureaucracy felt needed to be done, that weren't in the coalition agreement, and they could have been maintenance of existing programs or whatever.

00:07:33.780 So it was a real, you know, eye-opener that 70% of what we were doing was not actually in the coalition agreement.

00:07:40.020 I find that horrendous. The fact that we have unelected bureaucrats who the government are directing them to enact policy a lot of the time, and they just look at them and go, no, mate, I don't agree with it. Which is basically what you're saying.

00:07:56.600 Well, and the other thing that was really interesting was the process that they use. So I just mentioned this, the letter writing. And actually, there's a phrase for it. By the way, this is like, maybe it's all changed. Maybe it's all been sorted out.

00:08:14.340 This is, in a sense, it was my experience, ancient history, you could say, over 10 years ago. And the phrase that was used was right round. And so a minister, we'll do a right round.

00:08:25.560 You write a letter that goes round. And it's not the whole cabinet, it's cabinet committees. That's the sort of mechanism for how policy gets made.

00:08:35.580 And again, people might think, well, policy is made in Parliament. And we have legislation that goes through Parliament. That's true. But most policy that actually affects you, and affects people in their daily lives, that's sort of, it's not new legislation, it's just the administration of government.

00:08:52.100 And so that's how there's this thing right round. And when we looked at that process, it was amazing. Because it was just, it's, it's, it's, it's just almost a sort of definition of, of what you might imagine as sort of paper pushing bureaucracy, where it's literally a paper, I mean, it's emailed now, but it's sort of documents, long documents, many of them.

00:09:15.000 And it's a covering letter, and it's a covering letter, I'm the minister for whatever, here's my, I want to do this. And it's sent round to all the other members of the committee.

00:09:23.320 And it turned out that the rules were these, they had 48 hours to respond. And if there was no response, that was considered to be agreement. And so it was this absolute kind of bureaucratic racket of churning out this stuff that no one has time to read.

00:09:44.820 And no one, and also, there's an incentive not to respond. Why? Because if you don't mess up your colleagues thing, that means when you want to do something, they let it pass. So basically, everything gets passed, all the time. There's no objection. And the lack of objections taken as approval.

00:10:05.020 So it's an amazing process. That's how stuff got done. And it was very interesting. I remember at the time, Michael Gove, who was education secretary at the time, he was the only one that seemed to read the stuff.

00:10:16.300 And that's comforting, right? No, and object and sort of step in and say, sorry, I don't agree with that. I remember what there was one example, which was, what was it? It was somebody, I'm sorry, I can't read it was like, it was someone, one of the cabinet ministers proposed that every government building

00:10:35.020 would have to have, would have to develop in consultation with state, you know, all the usual jargon, and publish a suicide prevention strategy for people who were, you know, potentially committing suicide from their building.

00:10:50.560 Like, do you know what I mean? Like, just the sort of classic thing that, and you may say, who cares, whatever, but all this stuff just takes up time and it accumulates and whatever.

00:10:58.760 And I remember him saying, no, why should we do that? I don't agree with this, you know. So he would be, you know, he would challenge it, but mostly the culture was not to challenge it.

00:11:07.440 And you had 48 hours, and that was considered approval. So like, we tried to kind of put some spokes in the wheels of this machine turning around.

00:11:14.660 So for example, we extended the period to like, I think, six days. And then we also tried to create a form.

00:11:20.520 I don't even know whether, however long this lasted, which was to, just as a kind of nudge, to make them think about it, which was to sort of sign off.

00:11:32.100 Does this, this is the part of the coalition agreement that this proposal is implementing, just as a kind of, to make them realise that's what they're supposed to be doing.

00:11:40.900 But in the end, none of this really matters. I mean, you can't slow it down. That's why, you know, I was much mocked and derided for this.

00:11:47.500 But my conclusion, and especially from another, another little exercise we did, which was cutting red tape, you know, every government comes in, and they say, we're going to cut red tape, it's too much red tape, cut the bureau, slash bureaucracy.

00:12:01.180 And none of them do. Like, it's just been the story, it just gets worse and worse and worse. Red tape, bureaucracy, and it's easy to issue this stuff.

00:12:09.520 But when you're a business trying to implement it, it's a nightmare, it makes you a life of misery, wastes time and money and gives you a headache. And it's just, you know, ridiculous.

00:12:17.320 So we wanted to do something about that. So we had this kind of approach to it, which was, rather than going in like every previous government and say, well, let's try and find the things that we want to cut.

00:12:26.540 Why don't we have a different kind of mindset, which is, let's review, let's look at everything, and choose the ones we want to keep, and assume that everything else is gone.

00:12:36.120 Just as a kind of, so you set the default at less regulation. And I just remember the first meeting, I just thought we're sunk.

00:12:44.520 Because it was, they divided all the regulations on the books, like 10s of 1000s, I think it was like maybe 29,000 sets of regulations they went through diligently and put them into.

00:12:55.860 And we had different categories, you know, consumer protection, environmental, whatever. And we had different, and we had a process for each one.

00:13:02.920 And we had the meeting. And I think we started with consumer protection, it was in Oliver Letwin's office, I believe, maybe for, yeah, Oliver Letwin.

00:13:11.720 And we all sat around the table and the officials from that department came in with their sort of document, which was here, you know, with the list of all the different regulations.

00:13:20.200 And it was supposed to be colour-coded for the ones we're keeping and the ones we think we can get rid of.

00:13:25.760 And I remember looking at them, and most of them were, I can't remember which way, it was round, red or green.

00:13:29.940 I said, oh, so these are the ones that we're getting rid of. No, no, no, that's what we're keeping.

00:13:33.760 There's like two or three that they felt we could get rid of.

00:13:36.240 So I just thought, okay, let's go through it.

00:13:37.900 So we went through, and I remember we had almost the entire meeting just on one, one thing, which I remember what it was.

00:13:45.000 It was, because it was just, I just thought, I can't believe this.

00:13:48.000 It was regulations about flammable pyjamas.

00:13:53.140 Yeah.

00:13:53.840 And it was, it's specific regulation about flammable pyjamas.

00:13:57.840 I think it was, it was either men's or women's, I can't remember.

00:14:02.540 And I said, well, why can't this be covered in a general duty of, we had this long conversation about it.

00:14:07.780 And I remember the official from the Department of, is it trade industry, I can't remember who it was, whatever it was said.

00:14:13.560 Well, actually, we had like half an hour discussion just on that, whether we could, whether we really.

00:14:17.680 Just on pyjamas.

00:14:18.780 And it was one gender, it was either male or, I mean, I guess today you'd have to have a, that wouldn't even be,

00:14:23.700 you couldn't even have that conversation about male or female pyjamas.

00:14:26.540 Too triggering.

00:14:26.880 But, but it was, it was at the end of this whole discussion about either male or female pyjamas, the official, I'll never forget it, said,

00:14:34.440 well, actually, to the extent that there is an interest in this from the public, I think the pressure would be to equalize it

00:14:42.160 and to add regulations for female pyjamas or whatever.

00:14:46.780 And honestly, we had this whole conversation about the flapping of pyjamas and going in front of a, it was mad.

00:14:54.280 It was like a parody and with, that was the first meeting and I just thought, well, this is it.

00:14:59.400 They, they know how to sort of grind you down and the paper, there's always more of them than there are of you

00:15:05.820 and they can always generate more paper and you'll never win this battle.

00:15:10.740 And that's when I came to the conclusion that the only way that you would actually do what all these governments promise,

00:15:17.860 which is to have less regulation, decentralized power and so on, is to massively reduce the number of civil servants.

00:15:26.120 Or kill them.

00:15:26.840 That's the only way.

00:15:27.900 And so that led to a whole process which was parodied in the media about me wanting to fire most of the civil service.

00:15:35.060 But kind of yes, actually, because, not because they're doing a bad job, but because actually it shouldn't be so centralized.

00:15:41.840 You shouldn't have this giant bureaucracy of just this, the tentacles reaching into every single aspect of life.

00:15:49.240 It just feeds on itself, even if they've got good intentions, which they do.

00:15:53.280 I'm not, you know, doubting that in each individual person that they're bad, you're not saying they're bad people with bad intentions,

00:15:59.720 just the cumulative effect.

00:16:01.340 It's just this nightmare for people and businesses and society as a whole.

00:16:05.800 Steve, you're really smiley and happy.

00:16:10.080 You live in California, of course you are.

00:16:13.160 But as I listen to you as someone who lives in the UK, I'm fucking furious.

00:16:17.480 Well, I think you should be, actually, because this is why, okay, especially the last few years.

00:16:22.660 As you said, I'm here in California.

00:16:24.360 I'm focused on not just US politics, actually California politics.

00:16:27.960 In California, you know, we're a bigger economy than the UK and there's a lot going wrong in California to fix.

00:16:35.720 Do you know what I mean?

00:16:36.140 So it's like a big thing and that's what I'm focused on.

00:16:38.380 But, you know, I obviously keep an eye on UK politics and it seems to me that things are really stuck.

00:16:45.080 That's what it feels like, like for years now.

00:16:47.480 And I don't want to weigh in too strongly because I don't follow it closely and so I may be getting things wrong.

00:16:53.440 But it does feel like you just have one prime minister after another and it's all like, what's actually happening?

00:17:02.740 I mean, what, you know, where's the energy?

00:17:05.780 It just feels very stuck.

00:17:07.520 Nothing really gets solved.

00:17:09.380 Some of the problems seem to get worse rather than better.

00:17:11.840 You know, and I think a lot of it is to do with this fact that the machinery of government is really broken.

00:17:20.220 And acknowledging that, I would imagine that a lot of civil servants are very left-wing or left-leaning.

00:17:27.780 Again, nothing wrong with that if those are your political opinions.

00:17:30.900 Fair enough.

00:17:31.420 But the problem comes when you see yourself as a protector or a guardian of the UK and someone comes in with a policy that they deem to be right-wing and you say you're not going to enact it, then what you are doing is subverting the will of the people who have elected that government.

00:17:51.420 That's exactly right and that's what Blair felt.

00:17:53.640 I mean, you know, he said that.

00:17:56.080 And so I think he said it publicly.

00:17:59.020 I don't think I'm revealing anything sort of, you know, greatly confidential.

00:18:02.140 But it's exactly what you say because that's the theory.

00:18:06.300 And the theory of governance is that the politicians are elected by the people and the bureaucracy faithfully implements what they do.

00:18:14.920 But if that's not the culture, and again, I don't think it's even necessarily that they may not even be aware that that's what they're doing.

00:18:24.080 But there's this sense of, it's almost grandiosity, I think, that like, well, you know, we've been here, we know how it works.

00:18:30.480 You can't possibly do that.

00:18:31.980 There's definitely a lot of that.

00:18:34.080 And so you were known as a bit of a renegade.

00:18:38.000 You know, you'd turn up at Downing Street in your shorts and all of that, right?

00:18:41.420 And so you have a go at cutting the number of civil servants.

00:18:46.200 How did that go?

00:18:47.440 Well, look, I mean, I'll just say a few things, which is, first of all, I was only there for two years.

00:18:53.580 So I was there from 2010 to 2012.

00:18:56.380 Secondly, I've, you know, looking back on it, I think I went about that job in a hopelessly unprofessional manner, to be perfectly honest with you, in the sense that I, or you could say naive.

00:19:08.780 I don't know which way, you know, but now having started a business here and taught at Stanford at this great organization called the D School, the Institute of Design, which really tells you, which teaches you a methodology of how you make change happen, how you innovate.

00:19:22.000 So I've learned a lot about how you do that.

00:19:25.100 And I think we went about it, I went about it as a bit of a bull in the China shop, to be honest.

00:19:28.980 And so I definitely don't want anyone to think that this is some great story of a thwarted hero and a terrible, you know, I think that I could have approached it much better.

00:19:40.760 But I don't think anything happened.

00:19:43.760 I mean, I remember, to be perfectly honest, I think that we ended up in this, Francis Maud was the minister and ran this process, the civil service reform process.

00:19:53.980 And, you know, it was just a lot of meetings, everyone's saying the right thing.

00:19:57.940 But in the end, like, as I said, I came to the conclusion that it's, it's, it doesn't, it's, reforming it isn't the answer.

00:20:07.040 You have to cut it.

00:20:08.180 And there was no appetite to do that at all, like zero.

00:20:11.540 And in fact, some of the, Francis Maud was very good.

00:20:14.020 And there were some real successes of what we did there, which he led.

00:20:18.620 For example, I mean, you know, people may be not that interested in it, but the government digital service was actually really good.

00:20:25.600 And they automated a lot of things and saved a bit of money and made, made interacting with the government for certain things like renewing a passport.

00:20:32.820 I think, you know, stuff like that better.

00:20:35.340 And actually that is seen as a model for the world.

00:20:38.280 You know, I've talked to people here in America who think that's amazing what, what that, what happened there.

00:20:43.980 So it wasn't all bad, but I think that fundamental, you know, culture, arrogance, really, that this is the machine and this is how it has to operate.

00:20:56.660 I don't think that was affected at all.

00:20:58.840 I don't think there was any reduction in headcount.

00:21:01.820 Maybe I'm wrong.

00:21:02.620 Maybe they've done it subsequently.

00:21:04.560 I don't think so.

00:21:06.880 Broadway's smash hit, the Neil Diamond musical, A Beautiful Noise, is coming to Toronto.

00:21:12.260 The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more, featuring all the songs you love, including America, Forever in Blue Jeans, and Sweet Caroline.

00:21:21.780 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here.

00:21:25.840 The Neil Diamond musical, A Beautiful Noise.

00:21:28.660 April 28th through June 7th, 2026, The Princess of Wales Theatre.

00:21:33.580 Get tickets at mirvish.com.

00:21:37.000 We'll be back with our guest in a minute, but first we wanted to quickly tell you about our partners, Give, Send, Go.

00:21:42.260 If you need to crowdfund but don't want to hand over your money to face us big tech corporations, then we recommend using Give, Send, Go.

00:21:50.380 Give, Send, Go is a leading crowdfunding website where thousands of people in the US, the UK, Australia and Canada raise funds for anything from business ventures and medical expenses to personal needs, churches and funeral costs.

00:22:04.060 On Give, Send, Go, you can raise money for whatever you need.

00:22:07.480 We've met the people at Give, Send, Go, and we can tell you that they're absolutely aligned with trigonometry on our approach to free speech.

00:22:14.220 They've proved time and again they won't cave to the mob.

00:22:17.660 They don't just talk the talk, they walk the walk, unlike other big tech companies, and that's why we are proud to partner with them.

00:22:24.680 They, like us, believe that with openness and honesty will create more understanding and ultimately more harmony in the world.

00:22:31.440 Give, Send, Go is absolutely free to use.

00:22:34.340 With other crowdfunding sites, you'll pay between 5% and 10% of the money you raise.

00:22:38.880 Give, Send, Go charges nothing at all to use their platform.

00:22:42.320 They believe you should be able to keep all the money you raise.

00:22:45.480 Starting a campaign on Give, Send, Go is easy and intuitive.

00:22:49.300 Go to givesendgo.com today.

00:22:52.020 That's givesendgo.com to start raising money for whatever's important to you.

00:22:57.120 And now, back to the interview.

00:22:58.560 Let's look at a subject like illegal immigration, which is very contentious, you know, and there's going to be people on the left who look at it through a particularly, shall we say, a moral lens and all the rest of it.

00:23:13.520 And I'm looking at successive home secretaries talking tough but ultimately failing to curb illegal immigration.

00:23:21.780 Yeah.

00:23:22.640 Do you think this is the reason why?

00:23:24.640 I think it's the, they, I think it's not the only reason why.

00:23:29.800 It's part of it.

00:23:30.460 And it's also the, but what I don't understand, by the way, is why this hasn't been solved since leaving the EU.

00:23:35.580 I mean, that's like one of the main arguments.

00:23:37.260 So I truly don't understand why it's still an issue in the sense that the whole argument was we have control of our borders so we don't need to worry about, I mean, the argument before was, well, we can't do anything about this because they're using asylum as the entry point, as the justification.

00:23:55.660 And you can't do anything about that because they're the International Court of Human Rights or whatever.

00:23:59.680 There's a whole sort of network of laws, international laws.

00:24:02.900 And our hands are tied.

00:24:05.620 You heard that a lot.

00:24:06.920 And someone like Michael Howard, who was very unpopular in some ways, very much admired by others.

00:24:12.860 But, you know, he was very tough on crime as a Home Secretary and tried to do stuff and was very frustrated by all this stuff that they had to deal with.

00:24:21.020 I mean, I thought the whole point of leaving the EU was that that was something that you could then take control of.

00:24:26.600 And it seems to me that they haven't really pursued that aggressively enough.

00:24:30.120 I don't know.

00:24:30.400 Maybe they've got a good answer as to why not.

00:24:32.580 I think that the it's that.

00:24:35.820 And but I think the current I can tell the current Home Secretary seems to be the most prepared to be unpopular in confronting these things, probably since Michael Howard.

00:24:48.740 So maybe she'll figure something out.

00:24:50.280 But I think France's point, Steve, is is that unpopular she may be.

00:24:54.200 That's me. That's the main achievement that she's generated actually made anything change.

00:24:59.160 And by the way, my sense is she's genuinely trying.

00:25:03.220 Yeah.

00:25:03.660 So the question for us and that's why I said it's infuriating hearing what you're saying, because ultimately, whether I agree with the current Home Secretary or disagree,

00:25:13.260 the idea of democracy is that we vote for a government and that government then goes and implements the things that we vote for.

00:25:21.060 Now, of course, that isn't what always happens.

00:25:24.280 We all accept that.

00:25:25.680 But immigration is a very good example of this because it is an issue on which the same promise is made by success.

00:25:32.180 I know. It's amazing.

00:25:33.780 And then nothing gets done.

00:25:35.060 Yeah.

00:25:35.160 And again, why is it important?

00:25:38.260 Look, David Cameron used to put this.

00:25:41.080 I think maybe he got it from Michael Howard because he worked for Michael Howard, which is that people are generally pro-immigration, right?

00:25:48.720 You know, I'm the beneficiary of immigration, you know, like we all are.

00:25:53.100 We all are.

00:25:53.520 Right. And so, and I always say twice over, you know, my family from Hungary to the UK.

00:25:58.380 Now, here I am.

00:25:59.200 I'm a new American citizen and et cetera.

00:26:01.100 So very much pro-immigration.

00:26:03.700 But, and I think most people are, but only if they get a sense that it's controlled, that there's a sort of, just as.

00:26:10.900 And that it's fair, Steve.

00:26:11.800 And it's fairness, exactly, that there's, it's, it's a reasonable system and it's fair and controlled.

00:26:16.920 And the minute that you lose control, that actually generates the, exactly what you don't want.

00:26:22.780 Racism and xenophobia and all the things you don't want because it kind of naturally spills out when, when people feel that it's all just chaos and, and, and not properly managed.

00:26:32.760 So there's a really, it's really important to get a grip of it.

00:26:35.580 And the fact that successive governments haven't, I agree.

00:26:38.280 I think it's, and it's totally reasonable to be furious about it because either don't make the promise and just say, sorry, there's nothing we can do.

00:26:46.520 Right.

00:26:46.740 This is just the modern world.

00:26:47.860 I mean, look, some, by the way, that's basically what's going on here in America where there's not really any attempt to stop migration.

00:26:55.740 I mean, there's, they, they barely even pretend to try and it's all, well, the root causes and there's lots of violence and gangs in El Salvador.

00:27:04.280 Sorry to interrupt, you're in politics. Can you explain to the ordinary person how that's possible?

00:27:09.800 Because you and I are both old enough to remember when Barack Obama was talking tougher than Donald Trump on immigration.

00:27:18.200 There was a moment like yesterday when everybody agreed that countries need borders.

00:27:24.640 People like us, first generation immigrants, second generation immigrants, everybody understood that countries need to control immigration.

00:27:33.640 And in the West, in both countries, yours and ours now, we keep voting for governments and they don't do it.

00:27:40.540 And a lot of people are now going to the, you know, it's the globalist conspiracy, whatever.

00:27:46.080 Yeah.

00:27:46.240 Because how else can you explain this?

00:27:49.120 Yeah, it's totally, I mean, look, it's, it's exactly right that they, and, and, you know, by the way, not just, but I mean, there's, there's some amazing video, actually, that I saw.

00:28:00.240 Nancy Pelosi, who was the leader of the Democrats in the House of Representatives, revered figure, the Democrats.

00:28:07.220 She's from California, from San Francisco, and there's this amazing video of her from the 90s, talking about, in terms that would be, like, if Trump said it, would be, you wouldn't even believe he'd said it.

00:28:20.700 It sounds so kind of, you know, anti-immigration, where she's talking about, did you know that, you know, whatever, like, 10% of the babies born in San Francisco hospitals are the children of illegal immigrants.

00:28:33.760 We can't have this drain or, you know, amazing.

00:28:37.220 Just, that's Nancy Pelosi.

00:28:39.000 The, Hillary Clinton and all these people, totally in favor of a border wall, not that long ago, voted for it, many of them in Congress, you know, so it's totally changed.

00:28:48.460 I think it's part of the general, which you cover so well, and you know much better than I do, that general kind of shift to this really superficial virtue signaling kind of mindset on the left,

00:29:02.780 which is, oh, we mustn't say anything that comes across as racist or mean or xenophobic, and if you have controls, then people who are suffering will be denied.

00:29:14.740 You know, that whole mindset, I think, has taken over, and it's just this culture of, it's a sort of lack of seriousness about the issues.

00:29:25.920 It's just saying, yeah, we can just be nice to everyone.

00:29:30.160 Of course we want to be nice to everyone.

00:29:31.640 In our lives, we want to be nice.

00:29:32.780 We don't treat people with respect and be kind and so on.

00:29:35.860 That's true, but it's not, you know, you have a situation, I can't speak to the British situation,

00:29:41.860 but here in America, like, total chaos in border states, places like Texas and Arizona.

00:29:48.340 Now you have the mayor of New York, Eric Adams, saying that just a few, tens of thousands of illegal migrants arriving in New York,

00:29:59.500 being taken there on buses, tens of thousands, will destroy, that's his word, will destroy New York City.

00:30:07.260 There is 1.7 million, there's actually 1.8 million last year, illegal immigrants that are called gotaways,

00:30:16.420 where they're not even recorded.

00:30:18.600 That's 1.8 million.

00:30:20.160 He's saying tens of thousands will destroy New York City.

00:30:23.280 You have places like, there's a city in Arizona, Yuma, Arizona, 250,000 migrants in that one city.

00:30:29.440 That's more than 33.

00:30:30.220 I think the population's only about 90,000.

00:30:32.860 You know, it's completely overwhelming.

00:30:34.660 And it's just a lack of seriousness, just to say, well, we can't put anything in the way,

00:30:41.980 because it's, I mean, I think it's this obsession with not wanting to appear in any way racist or mean about anything.

00:30:51.260 Again, I'm like you.

00:30:53.400 I never thought I'd say these words.

00:30:54.880 I'm just listening to this, Steve, and I'm getting so angry.

00:30:57.740 It's an abdication of responsibility.

00:30:59.200 You can tell we don't live in California.

00:31:00.800 No one here is angry.

00:31:02.060 No matter what's going on, you're just happy.

00:31:03.880 Well, because it's nice.

00:31:05.260 You know, I mean, look, the thing is, I'll tell you that it is, but there's a lot.

00:31:09.300 I know you talk about the UK, but there's a lot to be angry about here.

00:31:11.880 I mean, if you walk around, anyone who comes here, you know, will see it's, do you know that phrase?

00:31:17.720 It was J.K. Galbraith, the economist, wrote that very famous phrase in critiquing capitalism,

00:31:23.540 talking about private affluence, public squalor.

00:31:26.540 Yeah, that's basically what you have in California now, because you've got this incredible wealth and squalor.

00:31:34.280 And I think people are actually getting more and more angry about it, but it's terrifying.

00:31:37.840 Yeah, no, no.

00:31:39.320 That's actually something I want to talk to you about, but we'll move on to that later.

00:31:43.260 The thing, look, I get very angry.

00:31:45.740 I'm very angry about this.

00:31:46.780 And I'm also very worried, because this is what the problem is, Steve.

00:31:50.860 Democracy, if what you're saying is true, and I believe it's true because it makes sense,

00:31:55.560 then the reality is democracy no longer works, because you're electing people who are essentially

00:32:00.440 powerless because of these bureaucrats, which then means that people lose their faith in the

00:32:05.800 democratic system, which means that our entire way of governing no longer works, which means

00:32:13.380 that something serious and drastic is going to happen, because people are going to get

00:32:18.300 more and more angry and deservedly so.

00:32:20.680 I really agree with a lot of that analysis, which is that there's this building rage.

00:32:25.640 Yeah.

00:32:26.000 And it's coming out in all sorts of unpleasant ways and sometimes constructive ways, but

00:32:30.480 generally there's a sort of real, and people talk about polarization and whatever, but there's

00:32:35.720 just a lot of anger because of basic things going wrong for people.

00:32:40.380 And so you look at, I don't know, again, I can't speak to the exact UK experience, but

00:32:46.260 you know, like everyone's sort of, you know, politicians saying everything's great, the

00:32:49.340 economy's great, we're doing this, growth, whatever.

00:32:51.860 And like, everything's more expensive, I can't afford this.

00:32:54.480 Now, you know, it's just basic things of daily life are a hassle, expensive, it's a nightmare.

00:33:01.900 You know, those are the sort of realities for people.

00:33:04.440 And I do agree that the machinery of government feels completely inadequate.

00:33:10.260 And in terms of the, you know, delivering what it's supposed to do, which is translate

00:33:16.680 these promises, it's easy to write the promise.

00:33:18.280 I've written lots of speeches and things.

00:33:20.020 You can write the nice things and they sound attractive.

00:33:23.180 But I think if you keep going down this cycle of making the promise and not delivering,

00:33:27.880 then you're just going to get more and more rage.

00:33:29.560 I mean, one conclusion I came to was, which I feel very strongly about decentralizing power,

00:33:34.400 because I think that that is the way to make, to really deal with this problem, which is

00:33:39.400 that actually, one way to deal with the problem, which is that if you put, like truly decentralize

00:33:44.280 it so that you can feel that your vote or your decision making really affects your life.

00:33:50.440 So I was really interested in the idea of neighborhoods as a really, you know, a sort of different

00:33:57.480 unit of government, not just local councils.

00:33:59.200 If you look at local councils, I remember going through this in some of the biggest councils

00:34:02.760 in London, you know, the boroughs, there are like millions of people nearly, you know,

00:34:07.640 some of them, maybe more, I can't remember exactly, but, you know, a lot of people, really

00:34:12.020 big.

00:34:12.600 So that's big government.

00:34:14.120 I mean, that's not close to the people.

00:34:16.660 So really giving control over what goes on in your neighborhood.

00:34:20.100 And I think it's a, it's an interesting idea, but anytime you talk like this, they dismiss

00:34:24.820 it as bullshit, you know, airy fairy, oh, that won't work, but it's not as if their version

00:34:31.580 is working.

00:34:32.860 So I think that, that we've got to try and solve it.

00:34:35.820 And I think that idea of put, I mean, this, you know, I'm sort of feeling frustrated now

00:34:40.400 because this was really a big part of the idea of that going back to where we started, the

00:34:45.600 coalition agreement.

00:34:46.300 If you read that document, it's full of stuff about decentralizing power, putting, putting

00:34:51.220 agency and budgets in the hands of people and neighborhoods.

00:34:55.160 We wanted to have mayors, every elected mayor so that you could have a figure of accountability,

00:34:59.480 not just for a big city, but, you know, like in France, they have a lot more decentralization.

00:35:04.320 And so, you know, there was, there's this vision of actually quite a radical re-engineering

00:35:11.060 of government that basically never happened.

00:35:12.800 Yeah, and it's worrying as well, because you look at the states where people are frustrated

00:35:18.700 and are angry, and that led to Trump.

00:35:22.740 Yes, exactly.

00:35:24.680 You know, and, you know, and the liberals will, you know, wring their hands and they'll say,

00:35:28.440 this is awful, this is disgusting, how can this man have got to power?

00:35:31.640 This is because people are racist, stupid, no.

00:35:34.400 Go, no, because they don't feel that they're being represented.

00:35:37.300 Well, you could say even more extraordinary, actually, you could say after everything that's

00:35:44.020 happened, January the 6th, everything else, and being indicted, what, 91 counts and all

00:35:50.520 this, they threw everything at him and all the abuse and the entire media, all the establishment

00:35:55.020 piling on for years.

00:35:56.560 And now he's the front runner for the nomination.

00:35:59.820 And as a, there was the poll the other week, a 10-point lead over Biden, a 10-point lead.

00:36:06.280 So you think, well, all these people that have just been, it's unthinkable, you can't have

00:36:11.540 Trump, like something really serious is going wrong when you get that kind of, you know,

00:36:18.060 result in public.

00:36:19.000 Okay, it's a poll, and who knows what's going to happen in the election next year, but you're

00:36:22.300 totally right, it really is driving a lot of that rage, and on the left as well.

00:36:26.840 So in 2016, it was right here in America, it was very interesting because you had Trump,

00:36:30.560 but you also had Bernie Sanders, who was doing very well, and came out of nowhere.

00:36:34.900 When he announced his campaign, people thought he was a joke, some crotchety old senator that

00:36:40.800 no one had ever heard of.

00:36:41.980 And suddenly, he's leading a movement, young people are super enthusiastic, you know, the

00:36:47.100 biggest grassroots movement anyone's ever seen.

00:36:49.020 massive, you know, amounts of small dollar donations.

00:36:52.660 You know, Bernie Sanders was really, a really big, and still is, a really big phenomenon.

00:36:57.920 Your point about Trump and the frustrations is interesting, because Michael Malice, who

00:37:04.560 is a recent guest on our show, one of the things he was talking about is how the moment

00:37:08.560 what he calls the corporate press, the mainstream media, attacks somebody as being wrong, bad,

00:37:13.920 and evil, now their reputation goes on.

00:37:17.460 It's really interesting.

00:37:18.700 It's a bit like, so it's so funny.

00:37:20.540 I was, the other day, I was doing a talk somewhere, oh yeah, that's where it was, and I was talking

00:37:27.040 about how here in California, that, well, I was referring back to learning economics at

00:37:33.540 Oxford, and there was the, I'd forgotten nearly everything, but I'm not a particularly academic

00:37:37.680 person, but I do remember this one thing called a Giffin good.

00:37:40.840 And the Giffin good confounds the normal laws of economics, so like, normally it's like

00:37:47.200 there's a demand curve, I think they call it, that goes upward, upward sloping demand

00:37:50.720 curve, so the price goes up, the demand goes down, whatever, and it's exactly the opposite.

00:37:55.360 The cheaper something is with the Giffin good, the fewer the people don't want it, because

00:37:58.460 they think there's something wrong with it, or the more expensive it becomes more popular.

00:38:03.000 And it's the same with that, you know, the more they attack some, the press, the mainstream

00:38:08.560 press attacks someone, the more support they get.

00:38:11.900 I was talking about the problems in California, where it seems to me the more that they focus

00:38:15.880 on a problem, and the more money they spend on a problem, the worse it seems to get.

00:38:19.360 That's definitely what we've had with homelessness, where it's just all around, and billions and

00:38:24.120 billions of dollars keep being spent.

00:38:26.940 And why does that happen, Steve?

00:38:28.140 I mean, we had Tom Billy on the show very recently, who, he's sort of like, people aren't

00:38:34.060 thinking about the end result, they're thinking often about what sounds right, what makes them

00:38:38.920 feel good, etc.

00:38:40.240 And they're not testing, they're not going, well, let's have a go at this, let's put some

00:38:44.560 money into this, let's see what the result is, and if the result isn't what we want, let's

00:38:47.940 try something else, and whatever.

00:38:49.500 Yeah.

00:38:50.100 But, you know, everyone we speak to here, left and right, recognizes that there's a problem.

00:38:57.740 Yeah.

00:38:58.240 Because it's kind of hard not to see it.

00:39:00.200 Yes.

00:39:00.580 Right?

00:39:01.460 Yeah.

00:39:01.820 And this is one of the richest, not just states, it's one of the richest countries in the world.

00:39:08.120 Yeah, I mean, there's an early, I mean, if you look at the income per, the kind of income

00:39:12.640 per head, 49 out of 50 states within America are richer than the UK.

00:39:19.020 It's, you know, like, there's only one that's poor, I don't know, it's either Alabama or Mississippi,

00:39:22.700 I don't know which one.

00:39:23.260 I think it's Mississippi, no, I think it actually, Mississippi, I think, is it, yeah, I think

00:39:27.360 it's Mississippi.

00:39:27.660 Like 49, so, you know, it's exactly as you say, it's very wealthy.

00:39:32.040 Well, I've, let's just, there's, just think about the problem that, first of all, this

00:39:39.920 way, right?

00:39:40.760 There's the stock and the flow.

00:39:43.700 And that's always quite an interesting way of thinking about a problem.

00:39:46.520 So you've got the stock of people, the people who are currently experiencing homelessness

00:39:51.160 who are on the streets.

00:39:52.200 And then you've got the flow, the pipeline as well, people who become homeless.

00:39:57.360 The stock issue is, in a way, in a way, it's, it's almost a sort of simpler fix, because

00:40:05.940 it's, you can, the truth is that most of the people living on the streets, 80% or more,

00:40:12.680 have either one or both of the mental health issues or addiction.

00:40:20.120 Even if they weren't when they arrived, when they became homeless, that's the typical pattern.

00:40:24.520 And it's really tragic, like you've become homeless, you may, and there's many, many

00:40:28.160 stories of people you would say are normal people, nothing wrong with their, and then

00:40:32.560 they, they, because their life is very precarious, and they lose their job, and then they can't

00:40:37.520 pay rent, and then they live on people's couches for a bit, and then that run, they run out

00:40:41.860 of favours, and then they live in the car, and then they can't afford the car, and then

00:40:46.240 they live, and that, that, that, that is a very common.

00:40:49.340 And even if you're not, you're totally fine, just poor, and you don't have any kind of

00:40:54.420 drug use.

00:40:55.780 Within weeks, sometimes, of being on the streets, you're, you're a target for drug

00:40:59.800 dealing, and crime, and this absolute stress of it, literally sends you crazy.

00:41:04.880 So that's, sadly, what often happens.

00:41:08.720 So you've got roughly 80% mental health, drug addiction.

00:41:11.540 The problem is, you've got, you've got laws in place that stop you actually dealing with

00:41:16.500 that.

00:41:16.700 For example, there's a 2016 bill passed, I think it's SB 1380, if you want to, someone

00:41:23.080 can look it up, passed by the California legislature, that makes it, it's called, well, the name

00:41:28.420 of it was Housing First.

00:41:30.960 What it does is implement an idea, which sounds nice and plausible, which is the most important

00:41:37.580 thing for someone who's homeless, is to get them into housing.

00:41:40.440 And then you can deal with their problems.

00:41:42.180 But you're never going to deal with their problems if they're on the street.

00:41:44.520 That sounds plausible.

00:41:45.660 But what's contained in Housing First is a ban on any state, it's illegal for any state

00:41:52.980 program, any program that takes money from the, from the California government to require

00:41:57.940 sobriety.

00:41:59.320 So you can't deal with the drug addiction.

00:42:02.080 It's actually illegal to solve the problem.

00:42:04.920 So what you see over and over again is people who are homeless going into programs, and this

00:42:10.360 is where all the, you know, $20 billion spent in the last few years, only for the numbers

00:42:14.160 to go up, and they're not, and they're still addicted to drugs.

00:42:18.320 People who, I mean, I've been to Venice and talked to people who are working on the streets

00:42:21.620 with homeless people.

00:42:22.880 It's like, they literally say, the language they use, they have a second home.

00:42:26.040 So we give them shelter accommodation, by the way, for other reasons, costing $800,000

00:42:31.060 per unit.

00:42:32.140 That's a separate thing.

00:42:33.260 What?

00:42:33.680 In LA, $800,000 per unit.

00:42:36.960 That's, let's not get into that.

00:42:39.420 And they're in the shelter, but there's no requirement to stop using drugs.

00:42:43.940 They're not in any kind of treatment program for drugs.

00:42:46.080 It's illegal to require them to be sober.

00:42:48.780 And so you've got these shelters that are just people sharing drugs, using drug addiction,

00:42:52.400 and then they go out, and they often keep a place on the streets.

00:42:55.420 This is what I was told from people who work there, to get the drugs or deal drugs.

00:43:00.380 So that's one thing.

00:43:01.460 Secondly, on mental health, because of previous policies that were aimed at dealing with what

00:43:08.160 was considered to be kind of, you know, nightmarish old mental health institutions, put people

00:43:13.480 into the community and so on, shut down a lot of mental health hospitals, and they always

00:43:17.880 cite one flew over the cuckoo's nesters.

00:43:19.640 We don't want that kind of thing anymore.

00:43:20.860 I'm sure we don't.

00:43:21.720 But what you've got now is a massive lack of capacity for mental health treatment.

00:43:26.780 There's a rule.

00:43:28.560 This is a federal rule that you can't have more than 16 beds in a mental health capacity.

00:43:35.280 So that means you just don't have the ability to treat people on the scale that you need.

00:43:39.500 You have hundreds of thousands of people mentally ill, addicted to drugs, and they're just not

00:43:44.940 getting the treatment.

00:43:45.620 And then on top of that, this is the one that's probably done the most damage, is a ruling

00:43:53.020 from the Ninth Circuit called the Boise ruling, which is Boise and Idaho, and it's a particular

00:43:58.520 case.

00:43:59.140 The Ninth Circuit covers the western states, so California, Washington, Oregon, and so on.

00:44:04.040 And the ruling, it was a particular case that was brought when the city tried to remove someone

00:44:10.320 into shelter who was on the streets.

00:44:13.320 And the ruling was, you can't do that.

00:44:16.480 It's violating their rights unless the city can provide shelter for everyone, not just

00:44:23.500 for that person, but for every single person who's on the streets.

00:44:26.540 That's the ruling.

00:44:28.060 Then you have homeless advocates and non-profits who make a lot of money out of this whole thing,

00:44:35.260 blocking temporary shelter, for example, a tent or a bed.

00:44:39.240 They say, no, the only thing that we'll allow is permanent supported housing.

00:44:45.980 And so you get into this cycle of, the only way you can get them off the street is if you

00:44:49.860 solve the problem in a big way, but you've got groups locally saying, we're going to stand,

00:44:54.960 we're going to oppose it.

00:44:56.100 So it's just been stuck for years.

00:44:58.280 And it's just a total mess.

00:45:00.920 But all of it is solvable if you have the right attitude to just cut through it and say,

00:45:05.680 sorry, that's ridiculous.

00:45:07.320 You know, it's inhumane to leave people on the street.

00:45:10.620 This is the thing that really is the core of it, isn't it, Steve?

00:45:14.720 Which is, we are pretending to be compassionate.

00:45:18.880 Exactly.

00:45:19.440 Instead of actually being compassionate.

00:45:21.480 100%.

00:45:21.820 Exactly right.

00:45:22.640 Because leaving somebody on the street instead of being in a mental health hospital because

00:45:26.580 you saw a movie once, that's not compassionate.

00:45:30.180 It's the opposite.

00:45:30.660 That's cruel.

00:45:31.140 Exactly right.

00:45:32.100 Exactly.

00:45:33.040 And saying, well, we can't, you know, I mean, there's someone who's written really well

00:45:37.280 about all this and studied it very closely, Michael Schellenberger.

00:45:40.000 Yeah.

00:45:40.440 Yeah, he's great.

00:45:41.320 And so he, I mean, he introduced me to this phrase.

00:45:44.020 Oh, gosh, what was it?

00:45:45.940 Oh, yes.

00:45:48.100 That if you argue that, you know, like if someone's addicted to drugs, you know, you

00:45:55.740 should, they should get off drugs and get back on a pathway to a sort of reasonable life

00:46:01.800 where they can earn a living and support themselves and so on and live on their own independently.

00:46:05.740 That is, that's anti-euphoria.

00:46:09.560 That's the phrase now that's being used, anti-euphoria.

00:46:12.440 People have a right to euphoria and who are you to tell them?

00:46:16.180 But that's so stupid because...

00:46:18.840 It's also cruel, your word, because it's like, that's not a choice.

00:46:23.180 That's what, it's, you're an addict.

00:46:26.080 Yeah.

00:46:26.880 The reason you take drugs is not to experience euphoria for those people, especially, well,

00:46:32.400 those people.

00:46:33.880 It's definitely the reason I take it.

00:46:35.240 I'm sorry, but anyway, speak for yourself.

00:46:38.340 But, yeah, true.

00:46:40.040 But you're not lying on the street injecting fentanyl into your eyeballs.

00:46:44.200 There's a massive difference between addiction.

00:46:45.280 This is like, it's an illness, you know, and so it needs treatment.

00:46:49.480 And that's the compassionate thing to do and to require treatment.

00:46:52.840 Now, I should say, just, you know, factual context, just this, the week that we are recording

00:46:58.600 this interview, the California legislature just passed a bill that would make it slightly

00:47:05.100 easier to force people to enter treatment.

00:47:09.300 It's an update of the conservatorship laws that you can actually act and put someone into treatment

00:47:15.960 against their will.

00:47:16.860 But there's so many other constraints.

00:47:18.860 There are so many existing laws that block that.

00:47:21.420 For example, the provision of the mental health capacity that is very unlikely to me.

00:47:25.760 It seems unlikely to me it's going to make any difference.

00:47:28.180 But the core point is exactly that.

00:47:30.600 It's this idea of compassion.

00:47:32.700 And I think that it's funny.

00:47:33.940 I've been thinking about that a lot because it's this sort of softness.

00:47:38.640 It's this, almost this ideology of appeasement.

00:47:41.760 And I always think about it in the context of, you know, raising kids.

00:47:45.760 Like, it's as if we're doing exactly the opposite of what normal people would think is how you

00:47:53.980 just behave in normal life, the way you raise your kids.

00:47:57.180 In other words, you incentivize people for doing the wrong thing and you punish them for

00:48:01.620 doing the right thing.

00:48:02.460 And that seems to be true in so many different areas.

00:48:05.900 And so when you've got someone clearly doing something and it extends to crime and so on,

00:48:09.820 and it's this desire to be liked, to be, to, you know, to look nice and look compassionate.

00:48:16.800 It's exactly right.

00:48:18.000 It's so profound that, you know, and that is exactly what's driving the immigration situation.

00:48:23.460 It's like, we don't want to look mean.

00:48:25.380 And if we turn people away, then we're mean.

00:48:28.220 But how compassionate is it to see what you've incentivized?

00:48:32.020 There's unbelievable trafficking of people, child trafficking, children raped on the journey

00:48:38.180 through Central America to get to the border, you know, criminal gangs enriched, people

00:48:44.600 drowning in the Rio Grande every day.

00:48:47.360 You know, what's compassionate about that?

00:48:49.460 It is completely disgusting, but it's done in the name of compassion.

00:48:53.120 I think that is basically the central kind of theme of almost everything that's going wrong.

00:48:59.100 We'll get back to the episode in a minute.

00:49:02.520 But first, we want to talk to you about AG1.

00:49:05.880 If you're a longtime fan, you might know we've been drinking AG1 for over a year now

00:49:09.920 to stay healthy and stave off illness in preparation for whenever our schedule gets really busy.

00:49:14.900 When we use AG1 on our busy America tours,

00:49:17.780 we've found that we feel a real difference to our energy levels and our ability to focus.

00:49:22.320 So my concentration span has gone from two seconds to 12.

00:49:26.120 That's because AG1 is a foundational nutrition supplement that supports your body's universal

00:49:31.180 needs like gut optimization, stress management, and immune support.

00:49:35.420 Since 2010, AG1 has led the future of foundational nutrition,

00:49:39.380 continuously refining their formula to create a smarter, better way to elevate your baseline health.

00:49:44.920 Even the trigonometry team here have started drinking AG1, and they love it.

00:49:49.540 Our producer was just telling me about how much more energetic he feels,

00:49:52.900 that his stress levels feel more manageable now, and because of this,

00:49:56.820 we're hoping he'll hit his deadlines for the first time in over five years.

00:50:01.160 AG1 is the supplement I trust to support my daily health,

00:50:04.580 and that's why they've been a trigonometry partner for so long now.

00:50:07.620 If you want to take ownership of your health, it starts with AG1.

00:50:10.960 Try AG1 and get a free one-year supply of vitamin D3K2 and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase.

00:50:21.840 Go to drinkag1.com slash trigonometry.

00:50:25.680 That's drinkag1.com slash trigonometry.

00:50:29.800 That's drinkag1.com slash trigonometry.

00:50:32.980 Check it out.

00:50:33.840 And now, back to the interview.

00:50:35.240 And do you think the problem is as well, is the fact that you have these people who are constantly up for election every four years,

00:50:44.220 so they want to appear compassionate.

00:50:46.300 They don't want to appear to be the bad guy.

00:50:48.760 So what do you do?

00:50:49.280 Do you talk about the UK or here?

00:50:50.640 Just everywhere.

00:50:52.460 Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to talk about if we're talking about here.

00:50:58.260 First of all, you've got so many different layers of government, and a lot of them are elected every two years.

00:51:05.920 Wow.

00:51:06.300 Okay.

00:51:06.960 And one of the issues is actually the districts, the gerrymandering of districts.

00:51:12.760 So fewer and fewer districts, certainly in the federal level, are competitive.

00:51:16.700 So there's no need to appeal to a broader electorate.

00:51:20.180 It's just your core supporters.

00:51:22.040 And it's a little, I think there's an analogy with what's happening in media to a certain extent,

00:51:26.700 where you've got that phenomenon of audience capture, where you sort of, because of the fragmentation,

00:51:31.080 and you build an audience, and you serve the audience, and you just go down that road,

00:51:34.700 and you become more and more kind of boiled down to the essence, rather than appealing to a broader audience.

00:51:40.060 And that's happening with a lot of politics, actually.

00:51:42.720 So it's not just the kind of, so, and for some audiences, they don't want the compassion.

00:51:46.960 They want, you know, tough, but sometimes that can be wrong as well.

00:51:50.420 You know, it's just that basic common sense, pragmatic, like, okay, what's going on?

00:51:56.560 How do we solve the problem?

00:51:58.340 It just really seems to be disappearing.

00:52:01.160 And by doing this compassionate approach, or false compassion, whatever we want to call it,

00:52:05.940 you're driving more and more people to that gesture that you just made.

00:52:10.220 Exactly right.

00:52:10.240 Exactly.

00:52:10.980 It's the fury, because nothing changes.

00:52:14.100 Exactly.

00:52:14.560 And so, what I worry about, Steve, is things are looking not great, to put it mildly.

00:52:23.640 Yeah.

00:52:23.780 Where are we going to be in 10 years?

00:52:25.600 Well, I don't, you tell me, I mean, what do you think, like, if, I mean, I've just been,

00:52:29.020 again, we're taping this just soon after the party conferences in the UK.

00:52:33.540 I don't know when people may be watching, but there was, I don't know, does Keir Starmer

00:52:38.800 offer people hope?

00:52:39.800 I haven't really been following it.

00:52:40.960 Well, this is the thing, Steve, is he the great, I mean, Tony Blair, I remember the

00:52:44.360 Tony, you know, it was like really exciting, actually.

00:52:47.360 Well, this is the point, right?

00:52:48.680 Whenever we have a lefty on the show, we say, are you excited about Keir Starmer?

00:52:52.360 No.

00:52:52.920 Whenever we have a right wing on the show, are you excited about the Conservative government?

00:52:56.700 No.

00:52:57.340 Interesting.

00:52:57.700 No one is excited about the people that are supposedly representing them.

00:53:01.840 Right.

00:53:02.120 Because of the things that we've discussed, which is we've kind of, you know, you can only

00:53:06.380 press a button so many times without the light coming on that you stay excited about the

00:53:11.440 possibility of...

00:53:11.780 Well, you know what's interesting about that that makes me think, I'll tell you who is excited

00:53:15.000 here.

00:53:16.420 And I saw thousands of them just a couple of weeks ago at the California Republican Convention.

00:53:22.780 Trump, whatever you think, his supporters are incredibly excited because they believe that

00:53:30.120 he is going to...

00:53:31.980 And also, they remember that times were better and you didn't have this chaos at the border.

00:53:37.160 I'm just telling you what they say.

00:53:38.900 I mean, people can challenge it, but that's their memory.

00:53:42.580 The economy was better.

00:53:44.040 We were earning more.

00:53:44.980 We didn't have inflation.

00:53:46.180 We didn't have these wars.

00:53:47.420 We didn't have Putin invading Ukraine and terrorists rampaging around the middle.

00:53:50.920 We didn't have all of that.

00:53:52.160 We had peace and we had prosperity and the border was secure and things were kind of good.

00:53:57.820 Was it secure?

00:53:58.300 I'm just...

00:53:59.420 Not...

00:53:59.780 Well, it wasn't...

00:54:01.360 It hasn't been for decades, but you didn't see the numbers you see now.

00:54:06.280 Yeah, no.

00:54:06.800 Not even close.

00:54:08.080 I mean, I was just looking at some data on the numbers of people apprehended, this is

00:54:15.540 just the ones they know about, at the southern border in America, who were on the FBI's terrorist

00:54:19.740 watch list.

00:54:21.500 And it's just incredibly clear.

00:54:23.820 You look at 20...

00:54:24.460 I mean, I don't have the exact numbers, but this is the scale is completely right, what

00:54:27.980 I'm about to tell you.

00:54:29.200 The first year of Trump, 2017, 6.

00:54:33.320 2018, 4.

00:54:34.540 2019, 0.

00:54:36.060 There were two 0s, maybe 2020, 0.

00:54:38.540 First year of Biden, 21, 53.

00:54:43.880 2022, 174.

00:54:46.320 You know, just a massive change.

00:54:48.280 And so, it's true that it wasn't secure, but it was a lot better than it is now.

00:54:56.540 Anyway, I'm not even saying, you know, I'm not endorsing one way or the other or saying

00:55:00.660 I'm not validating necessarily what those Trump supporters think.

00:55:04.900 I'm just pointing out that that's what they say.

00:55:06.960 They're excited.

00:55:07.480 And they really are excited and they believe in him.

00:55:13.700 And it's interesting when you talk to them, it's interesting to get back to what you're

00:55:17.640 saying, you know, throughout as a theme, was when you asked them, and I have done this,

00:55:22.160 like, why?

00:55:22.540 Because what's really interesting about the Trump phenomenon is the broad range of the

00:55:27.900 support, which perhaps isn't kind of captured in some of the caricatures, which is you've

00:55:32.100 got a massive shift in the demographics of American politics, where, for example, the

00:55:41.460 Latino vote.

00:55:42.680 And here in California, the Latino vote is 40% of these, the largest group.

00:55:47.620 That makes complete sense to me.

00:55:48.660 In California, you have 40% Latino, 30% white, 15% Asian, 5% black, something like that.

00:55:55.240 And so the Latino vote shifting each election with like 10% towards Republicans.

00:56:00.680 And so, and the Asian vote as well.

00:56:03.440 So you've got a lot more racial diversity in the Trump coalition.

00:56:08.160 And it's interesting that you've got people of all, you talk to working class, a lot of

00:56:13.860 working class support.

00:56:14.980 You talk to wealthy people as well.

00:56:16.920 Why do you support Trump?

00:56:17.880 He gets things done.

00:56:20.420 He made promises and he got it done.

00:56:23.060 That's what they think.

00:56:24.360 Now, people may dispute that, but literally that's what they think.

00:56:28.340 And so that kind of speaks to a real desire for that.

00:56:31.260 That is the number one thing that they say.

00:56:33.460 Well, of course.

00:56:34.320 He delivered his promises.

00:56:36.500 I mean, they may use that exact term, but like he's, I mean, I've heard it many times.

00:56:40.420 We were just on vacation in Alaska.

00:56:42.560 And there's some people there who knew me from my TV thing.

00:56:45.620 We're just chatting.

00:56:46.860 And, and they were not your, what you might imagine as your sort of typical Trump supporter.

00:56:52.480 And, and, you know, kind of, and, and they, they were, and in fact, the, the, the woman is a couple.

00:56:58.900 And the woman was like, she was just not political at all before Trump.

00:57:01.620 And in fact, her family was democratic.

00:57:04.700 So if anything, she was democratic.

00:57:06.600 And so I wasn't really interested, but then I saw him and I thought, you know, this guy's really doing what he said.

00:57:11.180 He said he'd do these things and he's doing it.

00:57:13.460 And they're all trying to stop him, but he's doing it.

00:57:16.660 It's really interesting that there was this very kind of gut connection to, to the sort of delivery of promises.

00:57:23.420 Well, this is the thing that I think people have criticized Trump for, which comes back to the very beginning of our conversation, which is some people argue he didn't deliver on some, many of the things that he promised.

00:57:36.240 And he would argue, and a lot of his supporters would argue, well, the only reason he didn't, it's the deep state.

00:57:42.020 Well, there's a lot of truth to that.

00:57:43.480 I mean, you could see that, and I, you know, I wasn't involved particularly, and I, I don't, they're on the East Coast, on the West Coast, and I covered it to a certain extent.

00:57:53.820 But it was definitely true, particularly at the beginning.

00:57:57.700 I mean, in a way, they had the Tony Blair problem, but like much, even much, because they had no experience.

00:58:03.540 He'd never done it before.

00:58:04.480 He says this now.

00:58:05.280 He said, I got there, I barely spent any time in Washington.

00:58:07.980 I didn't know how it worked.

00:58:08.880 And I hired all these people that I was told to hire who knew how it all worked.

00:58:12.900 And it turns out they didn't really agree with his policies.

00:58:15.940 And so he had a really overt campaign of stopping him from doing stuff, for example, on the border wall.

00:58:23.280 They didn't agree with it.

00:58:25.380 The trade policy, the challenge to China, you know, there was a lot of, and I think, by the way, this is one of the reasons that I think, I mean, this is just amateur psychology here,

00:58:37.300 but I just think it's one of the reasons that it's almost, that he was so kind of demented on Twitter and all the rest of it, because he was so frustrated.

00:58:46.060 It's like, hang on a second.

00:58:47.880 I got elected.

00:58:48.780 I had really simple promises.

00:58:50.140 Why can't we just do it?

00:58:53.820 Why are all these people telling me I can't or I shouldn't?

00:58:57.460 And of course, there's a constitutional answer to that, partly, which is that you've got separation powers, you need Congress to pass laws, et cetera, et cetera.

00:59:04.080 But even putting that aside, there was a lot of F-temp to frustrate him.

00:59:07.520 But that argument about the deep state, which is a phrase, you know, that people can mock or whatever, but it's absolutely true that it's the same as where we started out,

00:59:16.680 that there's a very entrenched bureaucracy that just doesn't believe in, that has an ideology, and it tends to be more left.

00:59:26.280 I think it's more politicized here in America than it is even in the UK.

00:59:30.280 I mean, individually, I found the civil servants in the UK that I dealt with professional, nice, you know, they were like on some mission to subvert the government.

00:59:39.840 But, and I think they do try to be, you know, apolitical.

00:59:44.360 But, you know, you can't totally put that aside.

00:59:47.080 But here, I think they really, remember that they're all drawn from Washington, D.C., which is an incredibly, I think it's almost the most democratic city in the country.

00:59:58.160 It's like 90% voted for Clinton or something like that.

01:00:03.540 And they all live there.

01:00:04.700 They're drawn from that community.

01:00:06.340 Broadway's smash hit, The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise, is coming to Toronto.

01:00:12.720 The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more, featuring all the songs you love, including America, Forever in Blue Jeans, and Sweet Caroline.

01:00:22.260 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here.

01:00:26.340 The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise.

01:00:29.120 April 28th through June 7th, 2026, The Princess of Wales Theatre.

01:00:34.060 Get tickets at mirvish.com.

01:00:36.340 Steve, I mean, it's been a pleasure.

01:00:40.800 We could literally talk for the rest of the day, but we've run out of time.

01:00:45.120 Okay, well, I'm sorry about that.

01:00:46.760 People should know that I was late.

01:00:48.740 So, to the extent that...

01:00:50.180 He's really integrated into California.

01:00:52.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:00:52.500 He's never on time anymore.

01:00:53.440 Yeah.

01:00:53.880 I'm sorry about that.

01:00:54.780 No, it's absolutely fine.

01:00:56.180 Our final question is always the same.

01:00:57.740 What's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be?

01:01:00.700 Oh, my gosh.

01:01:01.480 Well, the one thing we haven't talked about at all, that I always think is the core to

01:01:10.500 everything, is family, actually.

01:01:12.520 I know that sounds...

01:01:13.240 That's probably...

01:01:13.760 Maybe you were hoping for more of a jokey answer.

01:01:15.980 No, no, at all.

01:01:16.580 I think that it's actually the single thing...

01:01:21.540 I always say this, that if we could...

01:01:25.120 And I'm going to say something that sounds glib, but it's really fundamental, which is

01:01:29.280 if we could just get to a point where every child is raised in a stable, loving home, so

01:01:36.660 many of the problems that we talk about, government works on, we spend money on, we raise taxes

01:01:42.700 to spend on, and whatever, would just not exist.

01:01:45.740 It's a really sort of deep thing.

01:01:47.920 And actually, that is not something that you can just...

01:01:52.300 That you may just hope for.

01:01:54.540 There are things we can do to make that more likely.

01:01:57.180 Like what?

01:01:57.660 Well, I mean, I've written about them in my books, in More Human and in Positive Population,

01:02:02.220 especially More Human, if people want to check it out.

01:02:04.340 But for example, well, there's a couple of things.

01:02:06.620 So there's...

01:02:08.940 People assume that parenting is something that is just natural and comes easily and so on.

01:02:16.500 And actually, that is not true.

01:02:18.160 And it's incredibly hard.

01:02:19.220 And I'm a parent of two kids and you just, you know...

01:02:22.000 Are you a parent?

01:02:22.820 No.

01:02:23.520 So it's really hard and stressful.

01:02:26.540 I'm trying to get them to get married.

01:02:27.580 What are you doing, mate?

01:02:28.380 Yeah, exactly.

01:02:29.100 No, no, but it's rewarding and joyful as well.

01:02:30.840 Of course, everyone knows that.

01:02:31.760 But it's also really hard.

01:02:32.740 And so you can help people with that and actually sharing the...

01:02:37.180 You know, there's a whole kind of set of that.

01:02:38.440 I tried to get that going as a policy, actually.

01:02:40.620 But I think it's better done in the private sector.

01:02:42.760 So one of my dreams was to start a business that would offer kind of parent coaching in

01:02:49.480 a kind of supportive, aspirational way.

01:02:52.440 You know, I think, for example, we can work on that problem.

01:02:54.540 And actually, that would really do a lot to, you know, just keep families together.

01:03:00.000 Because managing those stresses is something that we can help with.

01:03:04.500 And there's a stigma against getting help for that, which is ridiculous.

01:03:09.460 And I think we can do something about it.

01:03:11.080 Also, if you look at the way in which particularly, you know, in the more disadvantaged communities,

01:03:18.600 less money, more precarious circumstances, worse housing and so on, it's even harder.

01:03:23.780 And so a huge proportion of those issues that you end up dealing with and a vast proportion

01:03:30.860 of government money ends up being spent on, you can deal with if, you know, they're really

01:03:35.500 established programs.

01:03:37.020 We tried to get something going.

01:03:38.800 The, what was it called?

01:03:40.220 The, I can't remember, the Something Families program, you know, and it's, you know, giving

01:03:45.920 really hands-on help.

01:03:47.200 And at early age, here, there's something in America called the Parent-Nurse Partnership,

01:03:55.000 Nurse-Parent Partnership.

01:03:56.060 And it's absolutely phenomenally successful.

01:03:59.500 And you have a trained nurse comes into the house or helps you with basic things.

01:04:02.940 You know, it just transforms prospects for families and kids.

01:04:06.400 So it's, and there's other things.

01:04:07.440 There's loads of absolutely positive, practical things you could do that would save so much

01:04:12.220 money.

01:04:12.720 But again, you're sort of, well, that's not as serious as, you know, tax cuts or what,

01:04:18.540 you know what I mean?

01:04:18.960 There's a sort of bias against that kind of stuff.

01:04:21.280 It's a bit touchy-feely and the civil servants don't understand it.

01:04:24.720 By the way, I should, now, this is supposed to be a short answer at the end, wasn't it?

01:04:27.640 I'm really sure.

01:04:27.760 No, no, no, it's great.

01:04:29.500 I would say the single best civil service interaction I had was with someone in, I think,

01:04:36.340 the Department of Education.

01:04:37.400 And she was, and you find there are these amazing people who are kind of, to a certain

01:04:43.340 extent, maybe languishing because no one's kind of paid attention to their area before.

01:04:47.340 She was a real expert in parenting.

01:04:48.960 And she, and we worked on a program to try and kind of stimulate some private sector response

01:04:54.140 and like parenting, coaching and stuff like that.

01:04:56.420 She was amazing.

01:04:57.640 And I had such great interactions with her because she felt really excited that someone

01:05:02.300 was, you know, engaged in the thing that she really was passionate about and knew,

01:05:06.300 you know, really expert in.

01:05:07.880 And so all I would say is when it comes to family, it's worth paying a lot of attention

01:05:14.120 to.

01:05:14.760 And I don't think the political system does because it's not as, it's not as kind of

01:05:18.420 dramatic as some of the other things that get talked about and argued about the whole

01:05:21.660 time.

01:05:21.860 But if we did pay more attention to it and talk about it more, I just think we'd have

01:05:26.680 a completely different society.

01:05:29.520 Steve Hilton, thank you very much.

01:05:31.180 Thank you.

01:05:36.300 Thank you.

TRIGGERnometry - December 10, 2023

Are Politicians Even in Control？ - Steve Hilton

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript