TRIGGERnometry - BBC Interviews TRIGGERnometry

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:08.920 I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:10.260 I'm Constantine Kisson.

00:00:11.400 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:16.960 We have neither for you today because it's us who are being interviewed.

00:00:20.620 The tables have turned.

00:00:21.760 We have comedian and actor Karen Dunbar talking to us.

00:00:24.780 You're here from the BBC.

00:00:26.360 Tell everybody a little bit of how this happened and what we're doing here.

00:00:28.760 That's right. Thanks, guys. I'm making a programme for BBC about cancel culture, comedy, wokeness, what we can say, what we can't say now, and why can we not say things? And I thought you two guys would be the very people to ask.

00:00:44.640 You're in the right place. Fire away.

00:00:46.220 Cool. So firstly, tell me, start with you, Francis. How did you get into comedy?

00:00:50.540 I got into comedy in the same way that everyone gets into comedy, because nobody, when they get into comedy, is in a good place. Do you know what I mean?

00:00:58.100 nobody goes you know what I'm nailing life let's go into a basement of a pub and tell jokes to

00:01:03.180 three disinterested strangers and comedians are a bunch of narcissists so I was a teacher I wasn't

00:01:09.800 very happy with where I was I've always loved comedy I've always been very passionate fan of

00:01:14.200 Chris Rock Bill Hicks that type of comedian and that's what I wanted to do and that's what my

00:01:20.200 dream was to you know to write comedy about the state of the world talking about what's happening

00:01:24.660 why it's happening and that's how i started on my comedy journey really i can identify and

00:01:31.680 constantin yourself well uh it's interesting francis says that for me i i was also kind of

00:01:37.720 i was just a little bit bored of my job really more than anything but also the people that i

00:01:41.440 always thought of as comedians were really as i now realize they were more satirists than comedians

00:01:45.780 they were people who were uh talking about the political events and what was happening in society

00:01:50.440 people like George Carlin and Bill Hicks they weren't necessarily pumping out a gag every

00:01:55.620 two seconds they were people who had something to say and I naively thought that's what comedy is

00:02:01.320 now so I went in thinking that that's what the world is and of course you very quickly find out

00:02:06.260 that that isn't how it is and you know I worked quite hard at it I did my own show in Edinburgh

00:02:12.500 about free speech after a contract that I was involved with which we may go on to talk about

00:02:19.040 um and uh then you know sort of halfway through that process we started the show to explore some

00:02:25.360 of the things that we started to see in the world and that's been my journey through through the

00:02:29.700 comedy and sort of uh this this part of of the industry if you like so since starting comedy

00:02:35.900 what have you seen about how it's changed what what give me an example if you can about what

00:02:40.640 you could have said at the start of your journey and what you feel that you've had to put to the

00:02:46.140 side now or not put to the side? Right. So a good example of this is my first comedy gig was in

00:02:51.860 August the 1st, 2009. And back then it was a very, very different landscape comedically. If you think

00:02:58.460 who the biggest comedian at that time was, particularly in Britain, it was Frankie Boyle

00:03:02.820 saying the most outrageous, offensive jokes possible. And back then on the London open

00:03:09.000 mic circuit, which is where I started, there was this culture of saying horrific, offensive

00:03:15.680 things in order to be seen to be edgy, to be shocking, to get a shock laugh, because a lot

00:03:22.120 of people wanted to be like Frankie Boyle. Not everybody. There was another group of people who

00:03:25.740 wanted to be like Stuart Lee, but very much there was that Frankie Boyle, Jim Jefferies-esque

00:03:31.840 comedian. And more and more, you saw that that type of comedy became less prevalent on TV.

00:03:40.500 it became less common. What you could discuss on TV, the type of jokes that were being broadcast

00:03:47.500 on TV became more and more and more and more, how can I put this, clean, the teeth were being

00:03:54.220 removed from it, to what you see now on Mock the Week bears no resemblance to what was on Mock the

00:04:00.100 Week in 2009. You just couldn't get away with a lot of the jokes that happened. I mean, I'll give

00:04:06.580 you an example, which is, for instance, on Mock the Week, I remember Frankie Boyle making a joke

00:04:12.440 about Jordan's disabled son, Harvey. And basically the premise of the joke was that the reason she

00:04:18.540 was going out with this cage fighter is because he was the only person who could prevent Harvey

00:04:23.800 from then going and committing unspeakable acts against Jordan. Now, I didn't particularly like

00:04:29.180 that joke. I don't find that joke funny. But that's an example of you could say an outrageously

00:04:34.920 transgressive joke on TV. And now you just wouldn't be able to say that. In fact, there's

00:04:41.680 lots of jokes now that you would have got away with even three or four years ago that simply

00:04:46.820 won't happen. A good example of this is you will never see or very rarely see a comedian criticize

00:04:54.880 Labour or Jeremy Corbyn. There's very, very few. Why? Well, when I did it, the reason is that when

00:05:01.520 i did it i remember i had a great one of my favorite routines i ever wrote about the labor

00:05:05.920 party and jeremy corbyn around brexit and uh it was very funny and a lot of people would find it

00:05:11.220 funny but there was always a hiss when you did it it was like what was it well just uh it's a bit

00:05:17.260 it's a bit of a long one um it's a bit of a long routine but basically i was calling out jeremy

00:05:21.360 corbyn for not saying what he thought about brexit being inconsistent right because we know he

00:05:25.900 probably voted leave and then he pretended anyway uh but but there was a big hiss that was always

00:05:32.300 there no matter how funny the rest of the audience were finding and i think somehow people got into

00:05:36.960 this idea in the head that it's not okay to make fun of different parts of the political spectrum

00:05:42.340 there's only one target that's allowed now which i find very odd but i'll give you an example coming

00:05:47.320 back to your earlier question about what you can and can't say because you know you again i think

00:05:52.060 this is this will be relevant to the conversation because I remember the first time we had a guest

00:05:57.240 on our show that we didn't know was Andrew Doyle he's a comedian he's a gay guy and we're very good

00:06:01.760 friends with Andrew and he came in and I was doing my research on my phone as he's coming in and I

00:06:06.040 said to Francis I didn't know he was gay and Francis looked at me with a twinkle in his eye

00:06:10.040 and went I don't agree with it either right a joke among friends who understand that it's not

00:06:15.860 meant seriously irony right something we all recognize as part of the normal process of human

00:06:20.740 connection if you did that in public as i've just done but you did it on mainstream television

00:06:25.220 you'd be destroyed because no one wants to no one wants to give you the benefit of the doubt that

00:06:30.420 maybe you were being friendly and joking as opposed to you seriously meant some sort of

00:06:35.460 discriminatory point do you know what i mean and what does destroyed mean now so destroyed and

00:06:40.660 you've got a fantastic poster up there saying cancel culture is a myth so is cancel the same

00:06:47.300 is destroyed yeah to me what cancel culture means is that so for instance you can lose your tv shows

00:06:54.960 you will become uh you you will be dogpiled which means on twitter lots of people then quote tweet

00:07:01.580 you demand that you know that you lose your agent that you lose your shows that you lose

00:07:06.440 you know your career you know we there's there's a comedian who's a circuit comedian he's doing

00:07:11.620 very well on the circuit he's a very funny guy he made a joke on a podcast and he lost his book

00:07:18.420 deal as a result yeah yeah yeah and you know it wasn't even that it wasn't even like a and some

00:07:23.980 kind of evil joke either yeah and it's it's partly comedy but when you know when we talk i know this

00:07:29.320 is about comedy and i understand that but it sounds very kind of distant from the lives of

00:07:34.660 normal people but i can give you other examples there was a guy who posted a billy connolly

00:07:39.300 routine about religion on his facebook yeah and he got sacked from his job and the guy got sacked

00:07:44.940 yeah wow for for jokes from a dvd that they fucking sell in asda yeah

00:07:51.260 that's funny yeah do you know what i mean i mean and on and on it goes we've had plenty of people

00:07:59.900 on this show who've who've who've you know we had a guy called nick buckley on the show he ran a

00:08:04.360 charity for inner city kids in manchester who were struggling who were coming from single parent

00:08:09.220 households who needed a bit of help to get them to succeed in life, right? And he ran that for 20

00:08:14.300 years. I think he got an MBE. He was recognized for his achievements. During the BLM protest last

00:08:20.680 year, he had a different opinion of that particular movement. He said it. He got fired from his own

00:08:25.320 charity. He got fired from his own charity that he started 20 years ago, right? That's what we're

00:08:31.220 talking about. To me, when comedians like us or people in the public eye in any way start talking

00:08:35.740 about cancel culture even I cringe slightly because I think these are people who've got a

00:08:40.120 platform they've got you know a great job blah blah blah blah blah but there's a lot of ordinary

00:08:44.960 people who get cancelled for things and they don't have a platform on YouTube to talk about it and to

00:08:49.920 be like this is wrong you know. So what does it do to us to live under that threat especially in

00:08:54.940 comedy? Well I'll tell you what it does to us it's what it does it means you self-censor your thoughts

00:09:00.960 But it also means that you self-censor when it comes to writing. We had David Baddiel on the

00:09:07.240 show a couple of months ago, the most lefty liberal comedian. And even he said that he

00:09:12.640 censors himself when he starts to write jokes. So what that means is that you sanitize the art form.

00:09:18.380 To me, what great comedy is, is when you think to yourself, I can't believe they said that.

00:09:23.740 And if you think about the great comedians that you probably fell in love with, the Billy Connellys,

00:09:28.160 you know the Richard Pryor's they were all saying these shocking things but we need that as a

00:09:34.860 society we need the mirror to be held up to us and if we say oh that is hate speech you cannot

00:09:41.140 say that then you're destroying the art form and also as well you are destroying the comedian's

00:09:47.680 ability to hold up and challenge some of the things in our society which is simply wrong

00:09:53.640 But what do we say to the people

00:09:56.540 And I'm including myself in this

00:09:58.520 Who have potentially suffered

00:10:00.380 At the hands of

00:10:01.840 Huge big comedy pieces

00:10:04.460 Well known

00:10:06.220 Things that have been taken

00:10:08.480 And then used

00:10:10.320 As racist slurs, homophobic slurs

00:10:12.540 How do we

00:10:13.900 Like what?

00:10:15.980 Good

00:10:16.700 I don't know

00:10:18.680 I can't think of

00:10:22.600 anything specific and it may come to me but that if we continue to laugh and mock certain minorities

00:10:30.180 then that goes into the ether and gives people permission to laugh and treat minorities as less

00:10:40.580 than but this is why i asked you the question of an example because there's that's a and this is

00:10:46.180 with all full respect to you that's a very loaded question because you've said continue to mock

00:10:51.140 people and and yeah yeah you know like i'd need an example of that because i i'm not turning on

00:10:56.580 the bbc at the moment and going oh there's this comedian attacking a group of people based on

00:11:01.880 their race are you seeing that i don't remember in the time i've lived in this country which is

00:11:06.340 since 1995 i don't ever remember seeing that right someone going after gay people or black people or

00:11:12.780 jewish people or whatever on that basis so you'd have to give me an example i think okay well i'm

00:11:18.940 be scrambling here a bit but i'm way back into like people like bernard manning and jim davidson

00:11:24.460 and how derogatory they were towards ethnic minorities um people of color women does that

00:11:32.500 not give people permission to ridicule well if we're talking about bernard manning i'm with you

00:11:40.940 yeah do you know what i mean like i i wasn't you know i wasn't one of these people in 1997

00:11:46.500 he was going political correctness.

00:11:48.700 None of us here are about that at all.

00:11:51.780 It'd be a weird position for a 14-year-old to take.

00:11:53.820 Yeah, exactly, exactly.

00:11:55.580 I mean, I was the sort of 14-year-old

00:11:57.280 that would have been political,

00:11:58.580 but you know what I mean.

00:11:59.980 So it's about where the line is, Karen, isn't it?

00:12:02.700 It's about whether the line of what you should

00:12:05.140 and shouldn't do and what is your angle

00:12:06.780 and what you're coming from.

00:12:07.660 If someone is just making fun of ethnic minorities

00:12:10.360 because they're ethnic minorities, that's one thing.

00:12:12.660 But the example I would give you is

00:12:14.500 i would talk on stage doing stand-up before the great plague about people being racist to me

00:12:20.640 in this country right and i i would turn the joke on the racist obviously as you would yeah

00:12:26.680 um and it was always the ethnic minorities in the audience who would laugh and it was always

00:12:32.140 the guilty white people who'd look around at the nearest black person or brown person yeah just to

00:12:37.960 check that it was okay for them to laugh yeah but did they then internalize that shame and then go

00:12:43.140 and take it out with more fuel underneath it towards ethnic minorities or however they're

00:12:49.280 biased against and would you defend bernard manning's right to do his comedy today if he

00:12:54.180 was still with us god rest his soul would i defend his right to do comedy i think this this is a very

00:13:03.180 good question where you think about it and you go to be honest with you i don't like his comedy

00:13:08.680 I don't agree with it. I find it abhorrent. I find it racist.

00:13:13.460 Should he be allowed to perform his comedy in a free society?

00:13:17.060 Fortunately, he should.

00:13:18.960 Why unfortunately?

00:13:20.340 Why unfortunately? Because I don't like it.

00:13:23.220 I don't like it. I don't find it pleasant.

00:13:26.240 I don't find it... I find it offensive to me.

00:13:30.620 So that's a personal preference as opposed to it being dangerous,

00:13:34.460 that you believe it's dangerous for him to have freedom of speech?

00:13:37.640 Yes, I believe there's people in this. So we talk, I think we give comedians far more power than they actually have. This idea that somebody is going to tell a joke and then it's going to change the way people think. I don't believe comedy has that power. I was listening to an interview with Bill Burr where he said if it did have that power, it would have been banned by now. And I'm fully with him on that.

00:13:59.500 Totally agree.

00:14:00.340 And I think that actually, if we're talking about people with power, there's people like Priti Patel bringing in a whole load of laws that coming in, you know, making it legal for journalists to embarrass the government up to 14 years.

00:14:14.420 I mean, those are the people we need to worry about, not some, you know, comedian with unpleasant and obnoxious views playing to half empty theatres in a seaside town.

00:14:25.140 And also, you've got to remember as well, society itself has changed since two, right?

00:14:29.080 So even if Bernard Manning was to come back from the grave now,

00:14:32.000 I don't imagine there'd be much of an audience for him.

00:14:34.740 Comedy is kind of self-selective.

00:14:36.700 You don't need rules about it.

00:14:38.940 All you need is to let the audience choose who they want to go and see.

00:14:42.020 Yeah, one of the guys you interviewed,

00:14:44.420 pardon my memory so you can help me,

00:14:46.760 and I just watched it recently about comedy,

00:14:49.060 and he said, if you want to do anything,

00:14:50.520 if you don't like my comedy, the thing to do is do nothing.

00:14:54.280 Don't laugh.

00:14:54.880 because if there are enough of the audiences not laughing,

00:14:59.640 I guarantee you the comedian will change the joke.

00:15:02.300 Right, exactly, exactly.

00:15:04.440 But also, you know, it's also about interpretations, isn't it?

00:15:08.560 It's about whether you are giving the comedian the benefit of the doubt

00:15:12.820 that they're probably not coming from an evil place.

00:15:15.780 They're coming from a place of trying to make you laugh.

00:15:18.080 And I always found it very weird because I used to have a routine

00:15:21.520 that I loved about how we need the Special Olympics for white people.

00:15:24.880 right and it was based on the idea that white people don't seem to do as well at the olympics

00:15:29.960 and many events as non-white people right it's just a fact and it was a joke in if you were to

00:15:34.800 look at it from the comedy thing of like it's punching up at the powerful white people and yet

00:15:40.800 most people would get uncomfortable and i had to build in about 50 different yeah other jokes just

00:15:46.760 to go no no no guys this is not me being racist i'm just making a joke about something we all know

00:15:51.440 was true right but as as society changed over the last five years more and more people were

00:15:58.740 uncomfortable even at the idea of race being discussed more and more uh you know francis and

00:16:04.400 i talked about this how uh you know the differences between men and women used to be a staple of

00:16:09.840 comedy right uh and it was so so much a staple of comedy it was actually kind of hack yeah not even

00:16:15.340 kind it was ultra hack yeah now you can go on stage at a comedy gig and go guys how many genders are

00:16:21.340 there yeah right and the next one what's a woman yeah yeah i recently uh interviewed lgbtqi plus

00:16:30.020 elders they're all over 50 and i've got to say something my mind was open because sometimes i

00:16:36.060 come from a place of what does it does it matter does it matter i mean i'm not even asking that

00:16:41.340 behind you know man does it doesn't matter because i to even question loud now feels like a huge risk

00:16:48.740 never mind make a statement so what do you see in terms of i'll come back to this so the shift

00:16:55.940 you spoke about between like in the last 10 years is any of the comedy that's coming out today

00:17:03.220 that's been sanitized does it make you laugh does it still work as comedy does it still serve its

00:17:08.960 purpose i mean i watched bill uh bo burnham's uh netflix special yeah now was that the funniest

00:17:16.500 special i ever saw not really no but it was very very interesting what he was doing playing with

00:17:21.420 the form it was sort of comedy as are but look there are people who manage to be very transgressive

00:17:27.300 and tackle these topics and do very well out of it the prime example of that is someone like bill

00:17:31.940 burr there's also dave chappelle who does it very very well another comedy hero of mine but these

00:17:37.280 people are already very powerful they already have huge audiences you know for everybody else

00:17:43.940 and for people who are wanting to break through,

00:17:46.280 get into the clubs, do that type of material.

00:17:49.020 It's almost impossible.

00:17:50.360 If you want to get on TV,

00:17:52.540 let's say you're a comedian who's written this incredible bit

00:17:55.560 that's very gender critical.

00:17:57.420 Are you going to get on Mock the Week doing that?

00:17:59.540 And yet you feel that that would have happened 10 years ago.

00:18:03.080 Yeah, absolutely.

00:18:04.680 So why is it shifted like this?

00:18:06.560 It's shifted for me because there's a very, very vocal minority of people

00:18:10.720 who complain get angry so for instance when we got signed to our comedy agent there was a group

00:18:18.540 of comedians who tried to organize a group to get us cancelled from our agent but but I think I

00:18:26.040 think there's a there's I mean we could talk about this for many hours because one of the things

00:18:29.920 we've explored on trigonometry our show is that this isn't just about comedy it's much more deep

00:18:35.500 than that but if we stick to the comedy I mean look let's just let's just name the culprits shall

00:18:40.220 week nika burns the the organizer and founder of the edinburgh festival right she said in 2018 that

00:18:47.520 she looks forward to a new era of woke comedy now for people who don't know the edinburgh festival

00:18:52.880 is essentially the be on be all and end all in british comedy if you don't go to the edinburgh

00:18:57.780 festival if you don't have a successful show there if you don't do well if you don't get seen by the

00:19:01.920 right people if you don't get win the awards you are not going to progress you're not going to get

00:19:06.620 on tv now if the person running that says we need woke comedy well what's what chance does anyone

00:19:12.400 who is not that have and you know when i and look i i want to make it very clear to anybody watching

00:19:18.820 and to you yourself francis and i are delighted with where we are in our lives there is no bitterness

00:19:24.540 or any complaint or any oh i didn't get this opportunity i don't care we're very happy with

00:19:30.200 how our lives have been i'm fine i'm just fine i'm absolutely fine but but but by the same token

00:19:37.320 uh you know i remember when i did my show it was called all well that ends well at edinburgh in

00:19:42.560 2018 it was very successful i sold lots of tickets audiences loved it it went great i got a mixture

00:19:50.140 of very good reviews also the people who were politically against it gave me bad reviews but

00:19:54.520 it was a good show i can say that right and i remember talking to a an older more experienced

00:19:59.620 comedian who who's a friend uh and he uh what i had two of them sitting at the same table and one

00:20:05.420 of them said look i think you're going to get nominated for the award and the other one went

00:20:09.400 what are you talking about he's like he's lucky he's not going to get assassinated right why was

00:20:14.420 my show bad was it unfunny no it's because it had the wrong politics i was saying freedom of speech

00:20:20.260 is important and i was talking about people like chelsea russell who was a teenager who got arrested

00:20:26.540 and given a hate speech prosecution and a criminal record

00:20:30.080 because she posted the lyrics of a rap song on her Instagram, right?

00:20:34.440 I was talking about people like that.

00:20:35.920 I was talking about the fact that over 3,000 people a year in this country

00:20:39.780 get arrested for saying the wrong thing.

00:20:42.020 That's the wrong politics now, apparently, right?

00:20:45.160 Yeah.

00:20:45.660 And just to add to Constantine's point,

00:20:48.680 the quote from Nika Burns is,

00:20:51.960 I'm looking forward to the next generation of woke comedians

00:20:54.800 deciding what is and what isn't acceptable yeah yeah i mean what would billy connolly have said

00:21:00.740 about this yeah get to fuck in three words yeah what was the incident that you had been asked to

00:21:08.700 sign a contract can you tell us about that yeah so that was what the show that i just talked about

00:21:13.880 was based around what happened was uh i was performing at top secret which is one of the

00:21:17.960 best comedy clubs in london uh and as i was outside a guy came up to me he said oh i loved

00:21:23.860 you say would you come and perform at our charity night to help us raise money uh for unicef or some

00:21:29.720 other charity i can't remember now the details and i was like okay i'll happily donate my time

00:21:34.140 to help you raise raise this money and i forgot all about it uh and a few weeks later i got an

00:21:38.880 email from someone else saying you you said you'd be happy to perform here's a contract that we'd

00:21:44.940 like you to sign and the contract was called the behavioral agreement form and it said that uh by

00:21:51.320 signing this you're agreeing to a zero tolerance policy on the following things racism sexism

00:21:57.000 classism ageism ableism homophobia biphobia transphobia xenophobia islamophobia anti-religion

00:22:02.520 anti-atheism and it also said that all jokes must be respectful and kind

00:22:07.240 that's funny that is funny right and i and all i turned it down and i just said on my twitter

00:22:16.700 which was like i had like 800 followers or something stupid at the time i said you know

00:22:21.220 this I got offered this contract for comedy this is I can't remember I either said this is

00:22:27.560 disgusting or makes me puke or whatever uh and uh it became a viral story this was uh the second

00:22:35.540 biggest story on the BBC News website on the day that Theresa May was nearly removed from office

00:22:41.980 by her own party right so it obviously something resonated with the public and this is why whenever

00:22:47.580 we talk about this i always bring it back to it's not just a couple of whiny comedians the reason

00:22:53.760 that went viral and the reason people really cared about it and responded to it was that they feel

00:22:58.900 this thing in their own lives that they're constantly walking around like they've signed

00:23:03.960 the contract not to make the wrong joke and not to say the wrong thing a lot of people feel that

00:23:09.240 way now uh and you know to me that was symbolic of how society has changed in recent years

00:23:14.900 Francis you mentioned about cancel culture being brought in by a very vocal minority

00:23:20.080 do you think a vocal minority can have that power especially if comedians don't have that power

00:23:27.260 we're talking about if it had that power it would have been banned by now how come this vocal minority

00:23:32.580 have got the power to change our whole society because what they have is they have a it's the

00:23:38.980 ones who shout the loudest are the ones that are heard so people think that twitter is a far bigger

00:23:44.340 deal than it is. So 12% of the British population are on Twitter, but therefore there is a storm on

00:23:50.000 Twitter for whatever reason, then people get very anxious. They get very worried. Companies worry

00:23:55.140 about their public profiles. They don't want to associate with someone who is racist, sexist,

00:23:59.780 and whatever else. Also, I'll give you another example. I used to gig six nights a week at some

00:24:05.920 of the biggest clubs in London, and I used to MC a lot for them. So I had a lot of relationship with

00:24:11.140 you know, the clubs and, you know, the bookers and whatever else. And these are big clubs. These

00:24:15.820 are clubs with seats of 250, 300 seats, filling their rooms six nights a week pre-pandemic. And

00:24:22.240 I remember saying to them, what's the situation been like with complaints? And each and every

00:24:27.100 single one of them has said that complaints have skyrocketed as a result. Now, have people changed?

00:24:33.180 The vast majority of people don't care. The vast majority of people are very reasonable. They'll

00:24:37.840 go and watch comedy. If something's not funny, they'll be like, I just don't find it funny. Or

00:24:41.360 he wasn't very good. She wasn't great or whatever else. But there is a small entitled minority who

00:24:47.400 will then go and make a complaint. And every time they make a complaint, they make life difficult

00:24:52.640 for the booker. The booker will then think, you know what, do I really want to book this comedian

00:24:57.920 when there's so many comedians out there who can come and entertain my club and they're not going

00:25:02.760 to transgress. They're not going to offend. They're not going to do this and that. And as a result,

00:25:07.060 what is acceptable to talk about on stage, the Overton window narrows as a result. And you've

00:25:13.880 seen it. And now they've started to go after podcasts. There was a podcast recently, you know,

00:25:17.860 made jokes about disabled people. And then a disabled charity got involved. And the comedians

00:25:23.260 had to, you know, had to come and then start and then apologize for it. And my question is,

00:25:27.820 I have a mother who's disabled, severely disabled, right? How is a disabled charity getting offended

00:25:34.380 by a joke on a podcast helping my mum shouldn't that charity instead of listening to the podcast

00:25:40.300 maybe think to themselves hang on it's a global pandemic disabled people now more isolated than

00:25:45.380 ever what can we do to help these people and put support structures in place in order that they can

00:25:51.180 live their lives to the fullest extent and give them as much support as possible but they don't

00:25:55.000 do that you know why because that's difficult that's not going to garner headlines what will

00:25:59.340 Ghana headlines is getting offended by a joke on a podcast. Yeah. Because it's easy.

00:26:05.420 Why are the vocal minority doing this? What would be the impetus to shut people up?

00:26:12.400 Well, it's funny because before we started the interview, we were talking about Jordan Peterson

00:26:16.520 and lobsters, right? It's all about social signaling. It's all about saying, I'm a good

00:26:22.260 person. Look at me. Look how virtuous I am. I voted, as we joked about earlier, I'm a good

00:26:28.300 person right i have the right opinions i'm going after the people that need to be going to be gone

00:26:34.480 after and it's incredible to me how many times we've seen it in comedy over the last 10 years

00:26:38.780 where the people who are the most i'm a male feminist i'm this i'm that they're the ones that

00:26:44.820 end up being outed as being predators of one kind or another because they're all signaling stuff to

00:26:50.080 cover up for shit instead of actually making a contribution to people's lives in a positive way

00:26:55.320 It's, you know, a good mate of mine is an accountant

00:26:57.920 and she always sits me down and talks to me about

00:27:02.200 how she does the books of left-wing,

00:27:04.160 does the accounts for left-wing journalists.

00:27:06.300 And they're always the ones that moan the most

00:27:08.640 about the tax that they pay.

00:27:10.580 And she's like, but you're left-wing.

00:27:13.140 Surely you understand that your taxes

00:27:15.560 then go to fund public, you know.

00:27:18.440 So people love to virtue signal.

00:27:21.960 They love to display how good people they are.

00:27:24.680 because a lot of the time it's to compensate for the fact that actually behind closed doors

00:27:32.460 they're not all that because here's the reality Karen none of us are perfect we're all broken

00:27:37.740 we're all human we all do and say things that we're not proud of yeah and the reality is this

00:27:43.700 perfect virtuous image that these people try and create it's just an image we're all human

00:27:49.840 and that's the thing they're denying their own humanity because what they're doing is they're

00:27:55.940 denying the ability to transgress but they're also denying the ability to be forgiven and to for

00:28:04.020 redemption and that's the real point of this my god i almost went to like end with a hymn because

00:28:11.460 that's i totally agree with that and that's just spot on do you find anything vanilla funny is

00:28:18.860 There's something that you've watched that's completely absent of anything

00:28:23.420 that smacks of a fence and you're rolling on the floor laughing.

00:28:26.520 Yeah, of course.

00:28:27.300 Look at Michael McIntyre.

00:28:28.800 Yeah.

00:28:29.220 Look, the most widely appealing comedy will always be vanilla to some extent, right?

00:28:35.280 It will be about the day-to-day things of people's lives.

00:28:38.400 And Michael McIntyre, a lot of people in the comedy world like to slag him off,

00:28:41.760 mainly because they're just not as good as him, right?

00:28:43.780 Michael McIntyre is one of the best comedians in this country.

00:28:47.300 Why?

00:28:47.680 because he can make people laugh about anything right and you don't need to be offensive we

00:28:53.880 neither francis or i were particularly offensive comics in terms of the material that was one of

00:28:58.240 the reasons it was kind of odd for us to be feeling these things happening there's loads of

00:29:02.680 stuff and uh you know we neither of us would be like oh yeah all this all this stuff that you now

00:29:08.880 see all of it is terrible all of it is crap we don't think of it in in those ways but at the

00:29:14.460 same time you do see things becoming diluted and there's it's like a lack of flavor in your food

00:29:20.420 it's the same it's bland and a lot of it is boring not all of it some of it is brilliant

00:29:24.660 but overall the standards have slipped in my opinion the last 10 years and you can see it in

00:29:28.760 audience numbers the audience numbers for bbc comedy itv could like all all the different tv

00:29:34.020 channels are going through the floor and that's partly because of the impact of netflix and

00:29:39.500 technology but it's partly because of quality as well it completely is and you go you know

00:29:44.040 vanilla. I mean, I wouldn't really describe him as vanilla. I'd describe him as mainstream. One

00:29:48.180 of my all-time favorite comics is Mickey Flanagan. You know, my girlfriend's American and she was

00:29:54.480 saying, you know, like American comedy is better than British comedy. Name me one British comedian

00:29:58.820 who's really naturally funny. And I played her, you know, Mickey Flanagan. And we sat there and

00:30:03.540 we just laughed like drains watching it. He's a phenomenal comedian. And I'll tell you what,

00:30:08.320 I bloody love a cat meme. I was showing you before you turned up. I was sharing a couple

00:30:15.640 of cat memes. I love them. Humor, the thing that I love about humor is that it's so incredibly

00:30:20.340 broad. You can be silly. You can be political. You can be satirical. You can be offensive,

00:30:24.220 transgressive. You can be observational. It can all be brilliant. To put it very simply,

00:30:31.580 Karen, people on our side of the argument are saying, let's have freedom. Let's let people

00:30:37.700 make the jokes that they want to make and let the audience decide what they want to see we are not

00:30:43.760 trying to shut anyone down we're not trying to cancel vanilla comedians or progressive comedians

00:30:49.420 or woke comedians let them do their jokes let them do whatever they want right but let everyone else

00:30:55.540 do the jokes that they want to and then let's see who who likes what surely we can all get behind

00:31:00.220 the idea that having more choice about the sort of comedy that we watch and listen to is a good

00:31:05.880 thing. Absolutely. It's like people come to me and just go, oh, you must hate Hannah Gadsby. I'm

00:31:10.200 like, why? What's happening with Hannah Gadsby? Oh, so Hannah Gadsby did a show called Nanette,

00:31:16.020 and they go, don't you think that this is... I'm like, no. I think it's great that she's got a

00:31:20.880 career for herself. I think it's brilliant that she can do the Albert Hall and do her comedy to

00:31:25.760 her fans. More power to her. Now, would we go and watch that is a different thing. I have watched

00:31:30.840 Nanette. I didn't particularly think it was a good show, but that's my opinion, right? I could

00:31:35.400 be completely wrong. I'm wrong all the time. Do you know what I mean? And I don't want people

00:31:39.500 whose comedy I don't like to be shut down. That's the difference between me and the other side of

00:31:45.640 this debate. Yeah. But why were your friends thinking that you wouldn't like it? What did

00:31:50.560 they say to you? Don't you think this is, what was the blank? So like, I mean, don't you think

00:31:55.040 this is basically crap and whatever else? And, you know, they're people who project

00:32:01.020 what they think i'm thinking okay and because i'm on a particular side of an argument oh well

00:32:07.620 you must think this but there's also there's a lot of polarization that's happened so and this

00:32:12.140 is an issue for us and you know our producer anton actually put this much better than neither of us

00:32:17.140 ever have he said what we do on the show is we hold the line and sometimes we're on this side

00:32:21.660 of the line yeah and sometimes we're on that side of the line and and it is true that people who are

00:32:26.620 often presenting themselves as pro-freedom and anti-cancel culture will very happily

00:32:32.140 cancel people who have the wrong opinion for them right there's an inconsistency on both sides of

00:32:38.820 this argument and we don't buy into either of those sides we are saying let's not cancel each

00:32:43.460 other let's listen to each other let's have a bit of forgiveness let's give each other the benefit

00:32:47.960 of the doubt if you made a joke that i didn't like did you make that joke because you're evil

00:32:52.380 and you hate russians or you hate jews or you hate whatever or is it just because you were trying to

00:32:56.240 make a joke and it didn't quite work out and we can just carry on as mates. Yeah and that doesn't

00:33:00.180 need to be under the guise of humour you know you're going to that's going to bleed out of

00:33:03.820 people if it's in them whether they're doing it as a joke or not. What does cancel culture as a myth

00:33:09.580 mean? Well the joke on the poster is Joseph Stalin who famously cancelled quite a few people

00:33:15.800 about 50 million people in my country and we just thought it kind of it shows you what's happening

00:33:21.640 in society now because the very people who are running around organizing cancellations of other

00:33:26.800 people they are the same people who then say that cancel culture is a myth and doesn't exist

00:33:31.420 and to me that's a perfect illustration joseph stalin who who murdered millions of people and

00:33:37.680 denied that any of that was happening it's kind of the same process on a different way in a different

00:33:42.000 level where people are cancelling people forcing them to lose their careers attacking them being

00:33:47.460 vicious to them at the same time as pretending that they're good people who are not doing anything

00:33:52.460 wrong. Is there anyone who's been cancelled publicly that it's helped their career?

00:34:02.260 Probably. I can't think any on the top of my head. No. No it's true you're right what happens is

00:34:08.160 it depends on what you do as the person who's being cancelled right and also it depends on

00:34:13.780 what you're being cancelled for i mean if you're being cancelled for genuinely doing something

00:34:17.780 wrong uh then that's different to being cancelled for something you haven't done wrong you know

00:34:23.800 yeah uh that's a big difference because you know in this by the same token of when we talk about

00:34:28.420 forgiveness you can't forgive someone who doubles down on something wrong that they've done right

00:34:34.880 forgiveness requires a degree of contrition you know so there will be people absolutely who who

00:34:40.720 who've been cancelled and have moved up as a result.

00:34:46.360 And to me, that's the right decision.

00:34:48.940 If you're being cancelled for something you haven't done,

00:34:50.940 when you've done nothing wrong,

00:34:52.480 of course you should run with it.

00:34:53.820 Of course you should make hay while that is happening.

00:34:56.000 Of course you should.

00:34:56.900 What, should you lie down and just give up

00:34:58.660 because some people decided you need to be destroyed?

00:35:01.460 Do you think some people are trying to get cancelled on purpose

00:35:04.380 to get more publicity?

00:35:06.820 Who's it? Lee Hust?

00:35:07.960 Some of the stuff that he's putting out,

00:35:09.600 You just think, what are you trying to do?

00:35:13.220 Lee Hirst is like a multimillionaire.

00:35:14.900 Why does he need to get cancelled?

00:35:16.060 I think he just likes rubbing people up the wrong way, I think.

00:35:19.980 Look, I'm sure, hypothetically speaking,

00:35:22.980 there is someone somewhere that's trying to get cancelled to get attention.

00:35:26.320 But I think that argument is often of use.

00:35:28.800 Like when I turned down that contract,

00:35:30.600 I turned it down because I come from a family in Russia

00:35:33.460 where almost all of my grandparents and great-grandparents

00:35:36.960 were put in the gulag for having the wrong opinion.

00:35:39.600 So to me, the idea that I now in Britain in 2021

00:35:43.120 and people are telling me what I can and can't say,

00:35:45.640 that's abhorrent to me and that's why I made the stand.

00:35:47.800 But a lot of people said that I did it for their attention

00:35:49.920 when I tweeted it to 800 people, right?

00:35:52.520 And if I could make stories go viral,

00:35:54.980 there'd be a story about me saying they're all there every fucking day, right?

00:35:58.760 Do you know what I mean?

00:35:59.400 Yeah, yeah.

00:36:00.420 Where do you guys go next with your comedy in this era?

00:36:05.380 Right, well, we have a lot of very, very big plans.

00:36:09.220 We really, at the moment, we're focusing on doing our interviews.

00:36:13.440 We've started to branch into live shows.

00:36:15.700 We're going to see what happens with the issue of vaccine passports.

00:36:18.620 That's been another completely coming out, blindsided us.

00:36:23.640 However, we also want to go into writing satirical, writing sketch,

00:36:28.400 because there's a lot, a lot of topics that mainstream, particularly BBC, won't touch.

00:36:34.500 And if they do touch, they'll only touch on it from a particular angle.

00:36:37.280 so we're going to be looking to let's look at the flip side let's look at what other people

00:36:42.000 actually think and tackling these subjects and also trying to make a point with them because

00:36:47.680 that's to me the art of great comedy is where you make someone laugh and you go well have you

00:36:52.100 thought about this not telling them what to think that's very very different but going have you

00:36:56.720 thought about this other way of looking at it yeah and that to me is the art of great comedy

00:37:01.740 and really we want to be moving into that as well but that also comes when the show gets bigger when

00:37:07.000 we have more bandwidth when we have more money and then you have more more that you can invest

00:37:12.040 in these particular types of projects are you frightened no frightened of repercussions or

00:37:17.200 being recognized and people abusing you no no no uh the truth is as as you know the point that

00:37:24.740 we've made we to a large extent made ourselves pariahs in the comedy industry knowingly knowingly

00:37:32.660 When we sat down to start the show, I said to Francis, you're going to get attacked by comedians.

00:37:42.060 People are going to call you evil. They're going to say you're right wing when you're not.

00:37:45.580 They're going to call you a Nazi. You're going to lose opportunities.

00:37:49.140 And he didn't believe me. Well, now he does.

00:37:53.540 But at the same time, look at where we're sitting.

00:37:56.740 We've been rewarded for what we've done.

00:37:58.820 so we have absolutely no fear comedy people can't cancel us right the only people we are answerable

00:38:05.140 to is our audience right and our audience are from all over the political spectrum we have

00:38:10.380 mums net feminists who watch our show and people on the right and people on the left and people in

00:38:15.440 the middle and a lot of people in comedy who will never say they'll watch the show but they do

00:38:19.200 right and they will message us privately why would people in comedy know admit to watching

00:38:23.640 because they know the industry they're in they know that if they admit to watching us they're

00:38:27.200 going to get cancelled. A mate of mine, and they're a great comedian, and I've deliberately hidden

00:38:31.940 their gender as well. That means they're a woman. Yeah. And this person, not necessarily,

00:38:38.120 this person said, I love your show. I could never admit it publicly because I'd get cancelled. And

00:38:44.160 this person is on the point of doing, you know, breaking through. And to be honest,

00:38:50.600 they've made the correct decision. They have. Really? They've made the absolutely correct.

00:38:54.760 If you want a mainstream career, don't admit to having any wrong opinions.

00:38:58.260 That's the society we live in now.

00:39:00.180 Do you think that wokeness is just a fashion and the arse is going to fall out here?

00:39:06.860 You know, everything is cyclical and we'll come back into the comedy of offence.

00:39:11.500 No, I mean, I'm not saying wokeness is here forever.

00:39:14.680 But wokeness, in many ways, for all our distaste and disagreement with essential tenets,

00:39:21.120 is based on some valid concerns.

00:39:24.220 What are they?

00:39:25.000 Well, if you have a society in which young people have no chance of ever accumulating capital,

00:39:30.280 they don't have access to the housing market, they're completely alienated from it, by and large,

00:39:35.520 how are you going to expect them to buy into the system?

00:39:38.180 How are you going to expect people who don't have capital to be capitalist?

00:39:43.000 And if you want people...

00:39:45.660 We argue with conservatives about this all the time as well.

00:39:48.280 I often say to conservatives,

00:39:49.440 how are you expecting young people to become traditionalist and conservatives when they have

00:39:55.180 nothing to conserve they don't have anywhere to live so they can't get married so they can't start

00:40:00.420 a family which are the things that will make you settle down and look after your community and think

00:40:06.300 more long term about things and be a bit more grounded and and you start paying tax and you

00:40:10.920 kind of realize things aren't as simple as just going give me more free stuff how is that going

00:40:15.300 to happen if people can't find a place to live they can't get married they can't have kids

00:40:19.260 How is that going to happen?

00:40:20.580 Do we not live in a society at the moment that just gives you free stuff anyway?

00:40:24.420 Well, that's what we've turned into.

00:40:26.180 Yeah.

00:40:27.180 You know, and that's another point.

00:40:29.420 You know, we kind of now live in a society where everyone's seeing at home,

00:40:32.260 they're getting a load of free stuff and people seem fine with it.

00:40:36.460 And you can't blame them.

00:40:37.460 I never blame people for taking free stuff that they offered.

00:40:40.260 It's the logical choice for you as an individual to do that.

00:40:42.980 You cannot blame people for doing that.

00:40:44.940 But the truth is, unless we give people the opportunity to do well for themselves, they will never adopt the mentality of can do, go get, etc.

00:40:53.580 That will never happen.

00:40:54.860 So to me, the idea that some people think that the solution is, you know, we go conservative about this is complete nonsense.

00:41:02.440 You've got to fix the housing crisis.

00:41:03.940 You've got to get people the opportunity to advance in their lives.

00:41:06.960 Otherwise, all the social shit that comes from that is never going away.

00:41:10.600 Yeah. Is there any topic that would be off limits to you in comedy that you think,

00:41:16.800 do you know what, even if that's the greatest joke ever written, that's going to hurt people?

00:41:22.900 No. No, because if it's the greatest joke ever written, then it's going to be undeniably

00:41:28.520 brilliantly funny. So there've been many a time where you've probably watched a comedian and go,

00:41:33.040 I don't really agree with that joke, but it's brilliant, number one, and it's made you laugh.

00:41:38.220 And then number two, it's a joke.

00:41:41.640 It's not meant to be taken seriously.

00:41:44.060 It's not about topics.

00:41:45.180 It's about the angle of approach, right?

00:41:47.160 You can make a deeply offensive joke

00:41:49.620 about a deeply inoffensive subject and vice versa.

00:41:53.680 What about the axiom time plus tragedy equals comedy?

00:41:59.440 Does there need to be time before we can speak about something?

00:42:04.660 Or is that what makes it so, I can't believe he said that, comedy, is that it's just happened.

00:42:13.520 Well, look at one of the greats, Joan Rivers, when her husband committed suicide, I think it was six days later or five days later, she was making jokes about it.

00:42:22.080 And she said, people were saying to her, how can you do that?

00:42:24.780 Your husband has just died.

00:42:26.680 And she went, this is how I cope.

00:42:29.020 I cope with laughing.

00:42:31.220 That is what we do as human beings.

00:42:33.080 We all know that we're doomed.

00:42:34.660 We all know that we're going to die

00:42:36.020 We all know that we're fragile

00:42:37.320 Fucking hell, my keeper lie

00:42:38.480 Yeah

00:42:38.900 Comedy

00:42:39.940 But we make jokes

00:42:42.040 Absolutely

00:42:42.520 To make the darkness more bearable

00:42:44.140 Totally

00:42:44.560 Well, I do

00:42:45.480 And that's exactly

00:42:46.640 There's an old saying

00:42:47.980 What is comedy

00:42:48.580 But making the unbearable bearable

00:42:49.880 Of course

00:42:50.920 And you think

00:42:51.360 Who's got the darkest sense of humour?

00:42:53.500 Medics

00:42:53.920 Police officers

00:42:55.380 Firefighters

00:42:56.520 Because they see

00:42:57.900 The real darkness of life

00:42:59.400 But then was Joan Rivers

00:43:00.820 Now making a joke

00:43:01.600 About something

00:43:02.300 That had happened to herself

00:43:03.280 And therefore

00:43:03.720 That gives her permission

00:43:04.640 Yeah, but the fact that her husband died, her husband had a daughter, he had brothers, he probably had brothers, he had a surrounding family.

00:43:13.440 Yeah, anybody else that's lost somebody to suicide, so yeah, it just ripples it.

00:43:18.280 Yeah, you know, that's, to me, that's how we cope with all the things that happen. We just do.

00:43:27.140 Hey, Constantine, do you love trigonometry?

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00:44:26.320 See you there, guys.

00:44:28.320 So yesterday I went to television and media operations at BBC.

00:44:35.000 We watched sketches, some of my sketches, that were now cancelled or edited out of the, you know, next repeats.

00:44:44.040 One of them was about an old woman who was looking after her grandson in her house and he, they looked, there was a chest in the corner.

00:44:55.260 the grandson asked what was in the chest he was about seven and the old woman took him to show

00:45:00.780 him it was a chest that your grandfather brought back from singapore um and when it opened up all

00:45:07.300 this funky music came out and dry ice and a pole and there was a pole dancer in it and you know so

00:45:13.220 the kids looking sort of actually i don't know if he looked shocked he might have been intrigued

00:45:17.680 is it right for me to say that fucking hell anyway and the kids looking at it and the granny's

00:45:24.040 watching quite whimsically saying, you know,

00:45:26.420 your grandfather was awful for under that chest

00:45:28.220 while this pole dancer dances.

00:45:30.400 So that's being cut for child safety.

00:45:33.940 What do you think about that?

00:45:38.580 Child safety?

00:45:39.900 Yeah, to protect children from sexualisation.

00:45:45.020 Yeah.

00:45:46.480 I mean, there's plenty of sexualisation of children going on.

00:45:50.060 I don't think that's the worst culprit right there, do you?

00:45:51.980 to me that is a corporation that is an organization protecting its back because they they're leaving

00:45:58.600 themselves open to charges of you know uh it's a child it's a safeguarding issue but also isn't

00:46:05.460 that an issue that's solved by advisory ratings like this is a suitable for people over the age

00:46:11.020 of whatever like if you want to protect children why do you have to cancel a bit or remove a bit

00:46:16.020 can't you just say this show is only suitable for people over 16 or with parental guidance or

00:46:21.660 whatever yeah the thing is if it's to protect the child actors the actors have already done the scene

00:46:27.740 so how are you protecting them from something that's already happened to them

00:46:32.560 that makes no sense it's all about signaling and this is what the point we're trying to get across

00:46:38.360 to you this is about the organization trying to look virtuous oh look at this we've done everything

00:46:43.300 the actors have already done the scene they've already been quote-unquote traumatized or whatever

00:46:47.320 of the word is, right? You're not fixing anything when it comes to that. All you're doing is trying

00:46:51.900 to signal to other people how good and progressive and virtuous you are. It's always happening there.

00:46:56.420 And it's also as well, we live in an era where every kid, and as a former teacher, you know,

00:47:01.840 I've seen it in my own eyes, gets given a smartphone. If you give your child a smartphone

00:47:06.820 at the age of 10, they're about three clicks away from accessing the hardest of the hardcore

00:47:11.360 pornography yeah so the reality is that you're protecting from what a woman dancing suggestively

00:47:19.000 in a bikini is far more wholesome than all the multitude of pornography sites that exist currently

00:47:24.740 on the internet do we still have a duty of care whether whether we're seen to be doing it or no

00:47:28.500 be seen to be doing it do we still have a duty of care to try and protect the kids from seeing that

00:47:33.740 I mean, it's already been shot.

00:47:37.360 But like we said, advisory ratings, PG or 15 or 16 or whatever it is.

00:47:42.000 What about the edits that have been done in Fawlty Towers for racist views?

00:47:50.460 How does that change anything?

00:47:53.560 But here's the thing, you know, society changes.

00:47:57.960 That is a reflection of society in the 1970s.

00:48:01.740 Are we just going to pretend it didn't happen?

00:48:03.740 Are we just going to put our fingers in our ears and go, la, la, la?

00:48:07.160 No, that's how society was.

00:48:09.320 And in many ways, we should be giving ourselves a little pat on the back,

00:48:12.140 going, we don't behave like that anymore.

00:48:13.800 You wouldn't want to say that anymore.

00:48:16.020 That's fine, isn't it?

00:48:17.580 If that episode of Fawlty Towers went out in its entirety and used those words,

00:48:23.060 is that not giving racists license to use them because they've seen it on the BBC?

00:48:29.940 Come on.

00:48:30.340 This is all a bunch of crap, this whole argument.

00:48:33.180 and I don't mean this personally to you.

00:48:34.740 No, no, I don't take it personally.

00:48:36.220 This is all a bunch of obsession about racism

00:48:39.340 that, as I said to you before we started,

00:48:41.340 Britain is not a racist country.

00:48:43.980 There is a handful of idiots

00:48:45.400 who go and send, you know,

00:48:47.480 stupid messages to footballers and whatever.

00:48:49.880 They're a tiny, tiny minority.

00:48:52.280 The idea that some racist,

00:48:54.460 or rather take it like this,

00:48:55.780 what, someone who wasn't racist

00:48:57.200 watched something on the BBC

00:48:58.340 and now they became racist

00:48:59.680 because they saw John Cleese.

00:49:01.440 Come on.

00:49:02.300 You know, a few years ago when I was in the Edinburgh Festival, 2014, I look Jewish, right?

00:49:08.340 There was a group of Scottish football fans behind me in Edinburgh, and they sang the words behind me,

00:49:13.920 I'd rather be a Paki than a Jew, right?

00:49:16.500 OK, it's all thought it's abhorrent. I didn't particularly like it when it was happening.

00:49:19.780 Does it reflect Scotland as a whole? Yes.

00:49:21.920 But anyway, I'm joking.

00:49:24.220 That's racist.

00:49:25.980 But, you know, but of course it doesn't.

00:49:28.180 But the idea that somehow those group were all very liberal and tolerant,

00:49:31.780 They sat down in front of Little Britain and went,

00:49:33.820 hang on a second, boys.

00:49:35.280 Let's go.

00:49:35.900 I've got a few ideas here.

00:49:37.940 I just find it.

00:49:39.400 Yeah, but we wouldn't be making Little Britain now.

00:49:41.960 Should we be?

00:49:43.240 I don't have a problem with Little Britain.

00:49:45.580 No.

00:49:46.240 I don't have a problem at all.

00:49:47.240 I thought it was hilarious.

00:49:48.440 Yeah.

00:49:49.440 You know, the idea that...

00:49:52.320 See, this is a problem I have with quite a lot of people on the left

00:49:55.940 is they feel we need to monoclonal people.

00:49:58.240 We need to protect them.

00:49:59.380 And it's also paternalistic and, dare I say,

00:50:01.640 incredibly patronising because they think people are stupid and if they think people are stupid

00:50:07.380 they're incapable of thinking for themselves. Most people realise when you watch comedy that

00:50:12.540 it's comedy, it's ridiculous, it's a joke. People don't go and watch an Arnold Schwarzenegger film

00:50:18.660 and then think he can take out 60 men with a flamethrower.

00:50:21.940 no that's it i agree i agree but don't show that we will on our show yeah you can yeah like you can

00:50:34.660 because i do agree and uh and i don't know what to do with it and i'm frightened of agreeing let me

00:50:40.900 ask you though you're a gay woman grew up in scotland right i don't imagine that was always easy

00:50:45.580 right but i imagine that your experience has made you tougher made you able to deal with stuff made

00:50:51.020 you able to write comedy all of this it made you who you are right yeah so why why would we

00:50:57.680 mollycoddle everyone and protect them from everything i experienced racism as a kid i

00:51:01.660 didn't particularly like i'm not saying it's necessary to develop into a fully fledged human

00:51:05.640 being but would i want to be locked in a room just so no one's racist to me but if i had the choice

00:51:10.500 of you know creating something from my trauma yeah or no trauma i'll take no trauma sure yeah

00:51:17.580 But is that realistic, though? That's the question, right? How much damage do you have to do to everything else just to get no one to ever say the wrong thing ever again? What do you have to do? You have to put everybody in prison, then you might be able to. Do we want to do that? I don't think so, right? That's the thing. But you're afraid, you were saying. Why are you afraid?

00:51:35.340 I'm afraid of ostracisation

00:51:37.960 I'm afraid of judgement

00:51:39.540 I'm afraid of violence

00:51:40.540 I'm afraid because I'm recognised as well

00:51:43.840 that if someone watches

00:51:46.140 and you can put this out

00:51:47.920 because it's true

00:51:48.560 that if someone watches your stuff

00:51:50.720 and sees me saying this

00:51:52.420 or some of the things that I've said

00:51:53.780 they'll jump on that and say

00:51:55.320 did you hear what Camden Barr said

00:51:56.620 and that'll blow up into something

00:51:58.200 and I cannae go to Tesco

00:51:59.420 so I'm afraid of that

00:52:02.060 and that's why I'm asking you

00:52:03.860 you're not scared

00:52:04.420 Yeah, of course, of course.

00:52:05.420 But see, I totally get that.

00:52:07.260 But then take a step back

00:52:09.180 and think that you're not Karen Dumba,

00:52:10.820 you're someone watching that.

00:52:12.840 The fact that you feel that way,

00:52:15.120 what does that tell you

00:52:16.040 about the society that we live in?

00:52:18.540 But is that any...

00:52:19.400 I felt that fear when I was in the 70s.

00:52:22.180 Saying the wrong thing?

00:52:23.380 Yeah.

00:52:24.100 It would have just been a different wrong thing.

00:52:25.820 What was it?

00:52:27.160 Well, I don't know.

00:52:28.240 You know, I don't like your hair.

00:52:30.140 You know, it was whatever the wrong thing is,

00:52:32.280 I don't think matters.

00:52:33.260 it's the fear that's attached to saying the wrong thing surely because whatever it is that you put

00:52:37.880 out the tribe yeah yeah that's the thing do you know what as somebody who has been kicked out of

00:52:43.180 the tribe it's incredibly painful you're right in many ways to fear it because when you go through

00:52:50.360 that process it's an incredibly lonely feeling i'm glad where i am i'm happy i've done what i've done

00:52:58.020 i wouldn't change it are you talking about in the last 18 months in the last 18 months but the

00:53:03.160 process of ostracization is difficult we're tribal we are built to be in a tribe to be

00:53:09.820 accepted to be part of the group to be ostracized from the group it's painful and when you say you

00:53:16.720 fear it it's a very rational thing to fear but but then the point comes with this what is more

00:53:23.520 important to you is it to be accepted or is it to have integrity those are that's the question

00:53:30.140 Every day of the week it would be accepted.

00:53:34.240 And I'm embarrassed to say that, and yet it's the truth,

00:53:39.160 so let me just state it.

00:53:40.580 And I'm saying every day of the week,

00:53:41.780 and that's no 100% true, Frances,

00:53:44.620 but the draw to integrity is taken away by the threat of violence,

00:53:50.440 whether it's outwardly or in my mind.

00:53:52.980 And violence may be strong,

00:53:54.520 but having experienced extreme homophobia

00:53:56.700 and having been ostracised through that,

00:54:00.140 then it's that muscle memory that's like,

00:54:04.060 nah, I'm not going to go through that again.

00:54:06.080 I've had enough trauma to make comedy from.

00:54:09.420 I can't deny that's what I'm going through.

00:54:12.320 Yeah, and that's fair enough.

00:54:13.260 And that's why we never, ever say to people,

00:54:16.540 this is what you must do.

00:54:17.480 And we never say to people,

00:54:19.240 you're wrong for not speaking the truth or whatever.

00:54:23.000 Everybody's got to make their own decisions.

00:54:24.580 but to me the fact that you fear whatever you fear as a result of speaking your mind

00:54:32.120 in the same way that you feared homophobes attacking you in the street

00:54:35.660 to me that tells me something about the society that we live in

00:54:38.620 and there's also a question if you fear it so much then why are you here

00:54:44.080 why are you doing this documentary

00:54:45.560 well exactly because at the core the fears in the mind

00:54:50.400 the core of me is where

00:54:53.040 the pull to integrity

00:54:54.800 is and

00:54:56.360 I wouldn't say I'm consciously trying

00:54:59.120 to work against that but I can't not

00:55:01.060 because it's intrinsic

00:55:02.300 and so probably that's why I'm

00:55:05.180 here and even I can feel

00:55:07.140 the difference between the flow of conversation

00:55:08.880 that we had when we come in and how I'm acting

00:55:11.160 now that I'm being recorded

00:55:12.400 I feel it and I don't like it

00:55:14.900 but I feel

00:55:17.100 the results and I know that it may be

00:55:19.020 edited differently for the BBC and you may put

00:55:21.060 this out exactly as it is

00:55:22.780 and so every word that's coming out

00:55:24.820 there's a, my amygdala, careful

00:55:26.620 bank, but watch

00:55:28.340 redirect, da da da da da

00:55:30.180 and I'm trying to work against that and this is

00:55:32.780 my level of courage at the moment

00:55:34.980 is being able to even just admit

00:55:36.760 that and I'm sure

00:55:38.200 hopefully if anybody's watching this and trigger

00:55:40.500 nometry and I'm not trying to do

00:55:42.700 a rallying call or anything but they're like

00:55:44.240 I know, I know

00:55:46.700 what am I going to do about that and what's the

00:55:48.660 risk to me trying to live with integrity but let me tell you something as well and this is something

00:55:54.680 that people don't talk about enough people think that courage is this mystical thing courage is a

00:56:00.120 muscle yeah the more you work on it the more you build it the more you say what you think the more

00:56:05.340 you stand up for what you believe the stronger it gets totally and this is another significant

00:56:13.000 step for you to come out and just to say this is what i think i'm what i believe and you know

00:56:18.340 as somebody who uh who loves musical theater it's that famous song life ain't worth a damn until you

00:56:24.420 can say i am what i am yeah i mean don't worry because you heard me it's somebody that loves

00:56:29.740 musical theater are you talking about me oh my god you're talking about you oh we are one

00:56:34.960 simpatico um so oh god um so i'll ask you the question this time guys what as a society are

00:56:43.800 we not talking about that we should be talking about i mean there's one thing that some people

00:56:47.660 are talking about, but I think not enough people understand what's happened in the last 18 months

00:56:53.240 to people's brains. We've just released an interview with someone who talked about how

00:56:57.200 the government weaponized behavioral science to brainwash people and scare people into being

00:57:03.540 unduly afraid of COVID. Now, let's be very clear, COVID is a deadly disease, which is dangerous to

00:57:08.660 many people. No one's denying that. And some of the measures that were taken to protect people

00:57:13.460 were absolutely necessary and if people are vulnerable whether because they're elderly or

00:57:17.740 whatever they should take the vaccine blah blah you know all the fucking disclaimers that you want

00:57:21.320 right but the truth is i am deeply uncomfortable deeply uncomfortable as someone who comes from a

00:57:28.460 society which i've seen be authoritarian at times with the percentage of the british public who are

00:57:34.760 happy who are happy look at some of the polling numbers 20 of people in this country even if there

00:57:41.900 is no COVID would happily accept a 10 p.m. curfew. Really? Stay at home forever from 10 p.m. until

00:57:50.640 the morning. No COVID. Where's that statistic? It's from one of the recent polls. Look it up.

00:57:55.940 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it is. It was an Ipsomori poll, right? Apparently, the majority of people

00:58:01.380 support vaccine papers, right? This is literally papir and bitter territory here. You're talking

00:58:06.620 about segregating people based on their medical status for a disease. And this is really just to

00:58:12.960 force young people to take the vaccine. To young people, COVID is less dangerous than flu, right?

00:58:18.900 So you're forcing young people to inject something into their body that's newly created. We don't

00:58:24.740 know the long-term effects of it, right? You're doing that by threatening to take away their

00:58:29.560 rights, which are God-given if you believe in God, right? It's like saying, well, if you don't take

00:58:33.880 the vaccine we're going to take a driving license away what how did that happen in 21st century

00:58:40.100 britain we're not we're not in soviet russia here and no one seems to understand that this is this

00:58:46.160 is they've crossed the line here they have absolutely crossed the line and i'm amazed

00:58:51.060 that artists aren't coming out against this comedians aren't coming musicians because

00:58:55.540 we're the ones that are supposed to be like yeah free for all you know do whatever

00:58:59.080 No, they're fucking conformists

00:59:01.400 To a level that I cannot understand

00:59:04.140 Yeah, but aren't artists

00:59:07.420 Comedians in it

00:59:09.400 So that they can get capital

00:59:11.840 So that they can buy into capitalism

00:59:14.300 So that they can get the house

00:59:15.860 And they can get married

00:59:17.240 And have the kids

00:59:17.840 Or whatever that road is

00:59:19.540 Therefore, you either speak the truth

00:59:22.400 You come out against it

00:59:23.680 And give up your house

00:59:25.380 Or you keep your head down

00:59:26.980 Do vanilla

00:59:27.700 and have a nice,

00:59:28.740 wee quiet life.

00:59:30.180 There's room for enough people

00:59:31.180 to do either, really.

00:59:32.060 Yeah.

00:59:32.700 There's room for,

00:59:33.760 I'm not saying every single comedian

00:59:35.200 and every single artist

00:59:36.360 and whatever,

00:59:36.960 but there's got to be more people

00:59:38.240 than the ones that are speaking out

00:59:39.540 that could do, you know?

00:59:41.300 And the fact that people

00:59:43.000 aren't shocked,

00:59:45.580 are not shocked to the core

00:59:47.440 at the widespread acceptance

00:59:49.680 of this authoritarianism

00:59:51.040 and this slippery slope

00:59:52.940 from one thing to another to another.

00:59:55.780 I am incredible.

00:59:56.960 I'm just amazed that that's the case.

00:59:59.060 I'm amazed that that's the case.

01:00:00.680 And for me, it's the latest bill that Priti Patel is trying to get through Parliament

01:00:05.680 to make it illegal for journalists to embarrass the government,

01:00:12.400 punishable by up to 14 years in jail.

01:00:16.380 So, for instance, those journalists who handled the Matt Hancock video

01:00:21.620 of him getting it on with his advisor, they would now be in jail.

01:00:26.640 And that is a story that is in the public interest, that the health minister was a hypocrite who was breaking the regulations that he implemented on our country.

01:00:39.960 But it's going to be made illegal for journalists to break that story with 14 years in jail.

01:00:45.180 Is that going to go through?

01:00:46.520 We don't know.

01:00:47.200 We don't know.

01:00:48.040 But they're trying.

01:00:48.880 But that's why we're raising both of these issues.

01:00:50.720 Same with vaccine passports. I don't think they're going to go through, but they're threatening people with taking away their rights so that people take the vaccine that some young people choose not to.

01:01:00.800 That's the fucking choice. It's a free society.

01:01:03.560 That's where we are in 2021. We are facing a real challenge to our civil liberties by a government whose mask has slipped and they're incredibly authoritarian.

01:01:16.220 and we all of us left right center woke anti-woke progress whatever you it doesn't matter anymore

01:01:23.760 the culture war stuff I still it's important but this what we're talking about now we need to be

01:01:30.500 fighting this every single person on this island tooth and nail because once these liberties are

01:01:35.680 gone you ain't going to get them back look at look at what happened after 9-11 look at what

01:01:41.160 happened after some guy took some shoes or a bottle of water that he tried to use are you

01:01:46.120 are you able to go on on a plane since without having your shoes checked without having to

01:01:50.380 once the government takes the freedom they're never giving it back never and they are trying

01:01:55.920 to cross several lines here that are just not acceptable what do you see down the line of that

01:02:01.920 if we don't stand up it's a slippery slope it starts with festivals live events nightclubs

01:02:10.740 then they're going to bring it in restaurants, pubs, coffee shops and it will eventually end

01:02:17.020 with you having to take a vaccine. I'm not anti-vax, neither is Constantine. I am against

01:02:22.960 a government coercing you, twisting your arm, essentially forcing you into injecting something

01:02:28.600 into your body. That is wrong and that is what the government will do. These vaccine passports

01:02:35.120 are ID cards on steroids.

01:02:37.560 That will mean they can track

01:02:39.080 every single one of your movements.

01:02:41.480 You will have to present it

01:02:42.720 in a pharmacy, in a shop.

01:02:46.060 That's where it's going to end up.

01:02:47.540 Unless you stand up now.

01:02:49.460 Yeah, what about the argument

01:02:50.940 that that's already happening

01:02:52.160 if you've got an iPhone?

01:02:54.240 It's not untrue.

01:02:55.160 It's not untrue.

01:02:56.220 It's not untrue.

01:02:57.060 But the fact that the government

01:02:58.460 is doing it is different.

01:02:59.880 Because the government

01:03:00.740 is far more incompetent.

01:03:02.520 And so all of these databases

01:03:04.500 are going to get hacked.

01:03:05.760 The information is going to leak.

01:03:07.340 People are going to find out

01:03:08.200 your personal medical details.

01:03:09.840 They're going to blackmail you.

01:03:11.120 They're going to dox you

01:03:12.060 if you've got the wrong opinion

01:03:13.540 or whatever.

01:03:14.780 So you don't want to...

01:03:16.200 Trust me.

01:03:17.100 Trust me.

01:03:17.760 You do not want to open

01:03:19.080 this Pandora's box.

01:03:21.580 I can get a Nokia 3210

01:03:23.540 and that still means

01:03:24.560 that I can go and have...

01:03:25.640 Absolutely.

01:03:26.340 I can still go to Glastonbury

01:03:28.040 or whatever else.

01:03:31.360 Fuck's sake.

01:03:32.180 What's to be done?

01:03:32.880 we're really

01:03:33.740 it's hell in a hand

01:03:34.760 cat stuff

01:03:35.620 it is

01:03:36.420 it is

01:03:37.000 that's why

01:03:38.840 courage is needed

01:03:39.600 yeah

01:03:40.100 and it's a muscle

01:03:41.200 fuck off with your courage

01:03:42.300 do you know

01:03:42.760 let me just

01:03:43.660 do you know

01:03:44.560 zone out zombified

01:03:46.100 in front of Netflix

01:03:46.980 with a packet of kettle chips

01:03:48.260 and

01:03:48.680 salt and vinegar

01:03:49.580 they're the best

01:03:50.700 oh they're

01:03:51.300 draw the mouth

01:03:52.820 but yes

01:03:53.340 thank you

01:03:55.040 and you know

01:03:56.580 go for a walk

01:03:57.140 around the park

01:03:57.660 as long as I'm in by 10

01:03:58.840 yep

01:03:59.340 oh

01:04:00.760 Yeah, you know, this is how much your government have taken the piss.

01:04:07.520 They banned selling alcohol in Scotland.

01:04:11.320 And when I heard that, I'm like, are they trolling you?

01:04:16.780 I don't know if that's all bad.

01:04:20.900 Karen, thanks so much for coming and talking to us, asking us a question.

01:04:24.200 It's been a pleasure to meet you and all the very best of luck with the documentary.

01:04:27.280 Likewise. And thanks, guys, for all your honesty and your courage.

01:04:32.140 And if you never see me again, know that you were wanted, needed and loved.

01:04:36.280 Thank you very much. Guys, we will see you for another terrific episode or live stream.

01:04:41.200 And they always go out at the same time, 7pm UK time, 2pm Eastern Standard.

01:04:46.240 Take care and see you soon.

01:04:48.020 We hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview.

01:04:51.040 Remember to subscribe and hit the bell button so that you never miss another fantastic episode.

01:04:57.280 and if you believe that the work we do here at trigonometry is important

01:05:01.600 support us by joining our locals community using the link below

TRIGGERnometry - September 09, 2021

BBC Interviews TRIGGERnometry - Karen Dunbar

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