TRIGGERnometry - Being Cancelled Made Me Confront and Beat Addiction - Dapper Laughs

00:00:01.000 You are kind of the OG cancellee, like, you got cancelled long before that was sort of talked about.

00:00:08.000 I am kind of like the poster boy for cancel culture.

00:00:11.120 Press got involved, pressured the homeless charities not to take my donations.

00:00:14.920 That is the most journalist thing to do. You know what? We're going to do the right thing.

00:00:18.640 We're going to prevent a homeless charity from getting money.

00:00:21.760 I didn't really know how to handle it at the time. My management certainly didn't.

00:00:24.440 How do I stop it? And they suggested Newsnight.

00:00:26.340 And that's how I ended up on Newsnight in a turtleneck saying, sorry.

00:00:30.000 The worst thing was, was the apology actually made it worse.

00:00:37.700 Hello, mate.

00:00:38.680 Hello.

00:00:39.460 It's great to have you on the show. And one of the reasons is you are kind of the OG cancellee.

00:00:45.280 You got cancelled long before that was sort of talked about and properly as well.

00:00:50.660 And I also think there was kind of no blueprint for how to deal with that as well.

00:00:55.020 So you had to find your own way through it. We'll talk about all of that.

00:00:59.680 Tell people a little bit about what happened with you, what you were doing, the comedy character, all of that.

00:01:04.920 Yeah, I am kind of like the poster boy for cancel culture.

00:01:08.000 I think for many years as well, after I got cancelled, anything to do with misogyny or sexism, my name would always fly into that.

00:01:17.340 And it was difficult. But yeah, I didn't really know how to handle it at the time.

00:01:21.860 My management certainly didn't. But to cut a long story short, I created a character back in the day when there was Vine.

00:01:27.860 I was one of the first social media, I wouldn't like to say influencers, comedians.

00:01:34.400 I was doing a stand-up comedy circuit and I had a business.

00:01:38.520 So I always used to create alternative egos online, different characters to sort of shield me from being out there.

00:01:47.760 Because I actually started on the cruise ships, doing cruise ship comedy.

00:01:50.400 So it was like family-friendly stuff where you've got to entertain the mum, the grandma and the kids at the same time.

00:01:55.900 And when I come back to the UK, I realised the comedy clubs, you know, they didn't like that.

00:02:00.220 You had to really push it. And then I really sort of exaggerated that online.

00:02:03.600 And Dapper Laughs was one of the characters that I'd created.

00:02:07.240 That was sort of the main one on Vine. And it was really an exaggerated lad culture character. 0.96

00:02:16.100 And he always lost. He'd chase the birds, you know, try and pull women and all that.

00:02:22.140 But he always ended up the butt of the joke. But it was all done on my phone, right?

00:02:25.920 So, you know, some people, I think, couldn't see the difference between me and the character,

00:02:32.940 even though it was outrageous, scripted, sketch-based comedy.

00:02:36.660 And it blew up. And then I got a TV show on ITV2 called Dapper Laughs on the Pool,

00:02:40.440 where we taught men how to pull women with comedy. And then the world went mental about it.

00:02:44.800 It was, yeah, it was...

00:02:47.020 And what was it that actually triggered people going after you?

00:02:50.020 Because you were doing live shows to your audience.

00:02:53.060 And you said something. I don't even remember what it was.

00:02:56.020 Yeah, I mean, they call it a rape joke. They said it was a rape joke. 1.00

00:02:58.400 But what it was, that whole situation was, it was like a melting pot.

00:03:04.380 It was like bubbling because I was arguing with journalists for a long time on the lead up to that.

00:03:08.260 Stuff had happened where I bought out like a Christmas album.

00:03:10.700 And I'd made jokes in there about homeless people.

00:03:13.020 But we were raising money for the homeless.

00:03:14.880 And the press got involved, pressured the homeless charities not to take my donations.

00:03:19.160 So that was like the first thing. That was the first thing I sort of...

00:03:21.760 Yeah, I know.

00:03:22.440 That is the most journalist thing to do. You know what? We're going to do the right thing.

00:03:26.280 We're going to prevent a homeless charity from getting money.

00:03:29.000 Yeah, it was because, yeah, it was the craziest thing.

00:03:31.820 It's because I'd used the word tramp in there. 0.95

00:03:33.840 And you've got to remember, this is like 15, 10 or 11 years ago.

00:03:37.660 You know, I was a lot younger, a lot less, what I'd say, educated.

00:03:42.200 And I didn't really care about the language I used.

00:03:45.100 I was all just about the comedy.

00:03:46.780 And, you know, I didn't realise how sensitive the world was and stuff like that.

00:03:50.980 And you found out, though.

00:03:52.700 I found out quick. Yeah, I found out quick.

00:03:54.880 But I couldn't get my head around that.

00:03:57.260 And that was like a tipping point for me because I was like, look, I've raised a lot of money here.

00:04:00.780 And they'd used...

00:04:03.280 The charity actually ended up using it for his marketing campaign.

00:04:05.900 You know, we won't accept money from the likes of these people.

00:04:09.020 And I was...

00:04:09.980 I went, you know, back on social media.

00:04:11.940 And I was like, imagine if I was walking around handing money out, you know, and making jokes.

00:04:16.100 Would they not take...

00:04:17.000 They wouldn't care.

00:04:17.620 They just want the money.

00:04:18.380 They want the...

00:04:19.160 You know, and I couldn't get my head around it.

00:04:21.320 And I argued.

00:04:22.360 Then my vines were getting brought up and lots of different things.

00:04:25.060 But the actual night that it sealed the deal for me and ended it all, I was doing a show.

00:04:29.960 And just before I went on, I think it was the Huffington Post or something like that,

00:04:32.920 had done a piece calling my TV show an almanac for rape culture.

00:04:36.620 Because I was basically giving men a makeover and then taking them out and teaching them 0.99

00:04:41.100 how to chat up girls with jokes and stuff like that.

00:04:43.460 And then they were talking to women, you know... 0.73

00:04:46.100 Well, that's the same as rape, mate. 1.00

00:04:47.240 Yeah.

00:04:47.640 Well, do you know what I mean?

00:04:49.520 But I thought it was giving men confidence.

00:04:53.200 I mean, you're the new Ted Bundy now, mate.

00:04:55.260 Do you know what I mean?

00:04:55.880 Yeah.

00:04:56.360 Crack a joke.

00:04:56.980 That'll get them.

00:04:59.080 But yeah, and I was angry about it.

00:05:01.020 I really was.

00:05:01.600 My family has been affected by sexual violence, right?

00:05:05.020 So actually in our family, we have had horrible situations like that.

00:05:08.960 And I got backlash from my friends and family because of this article.

00:05:12.920 And it was the first time it really hit home to me.

00:05:15.000 You know, what they were saying that I was pro-rape in this article. 1.00

00:05:18.260 And I lost my shit. 0.99

00:05:20.000 And I went out on stage and I was venting. 1.00

00:05:24.560 And I said, you know, if I wanted to make a TV show that was an almanac for rape, 0.72

00:05:28.860 if I wanted to teach men to rape, I wouldn't have written six 30-minute episodes. 0.63

00:05:32.440 I just would have done one one-minute episode and said, 0.90

00:05:34.380 go down the road, get some duct tape.

00:05:36.200 You know, and that's how I was painting it.

00:05:38.000 I was like, if I wanted to do that, that's what I would have done.

00:05:40.320 You know, poke in front of the journalist.

00:05:41.700 And then a woman at the front had said, well, my friend Susie, or whatever, she loves you. 0.98

00:05:46.880 She's gagging for a rape. 1.00

00:05:47.800 And I went, there you go. 1.00

00:05:48.400 She's gagging for a rape. 1.00

00:05:49.600 And what they'd done is they got the clip.

00:05:51.660 But it was sinister because when they got the clip, they clipped it.

00:05:55.500 So I went, you know what you want to do?

00:05:57.260 Go down the road, get some duct tape. 0.99

00:05:59.560 She's gagging for a rape. 1.00

00:06:01.180 And it was out. 0.98

00:06:02.680 Is that what happened?

00:06:03.440 Non-context at all.

00:06:04.200 Is that what happened?

00:06:04.980 That was circulated on the internet by all of the publications, so your metros and all of that.

00:06:11.040 And, you know, by, within three days, there was 60,000 people signed a petition to get the pro-rape comedian off ITV2. 0.68

00:06:18.880 And that was the beginning of the end. 0.99

00:06:20.260 Fucking, that was the level of misrepresentation. 0.98

00:06:23.500 Because I didn't know any of this. 0.99

00:06:24.840 But look, and I've battled with my, because I've been on a mad journey through my sobriety, you know, because that turned me into an alcoholic and a drug addict.

00:06:35.520 And, you know, I lost my mind.

00:06:36.820 I was suicidal.

00:06:37.580 It was crazy. 0.60

00:06:38.580 But I've been on this mad journey where I've looked back and I've gone, you have to take some responsibility, you know, for the silly things you've said in order to heal from it.

00:06:47.520 So I went through a phase of, like, really believing that, you know, maybe there was some malice. 0.95

00:06:51.380 And it wasn't until I really got sober, which has only been the last year, where I look back and I was like, look, you may have been a bit of a twat, but there was no malice in that, you know. 0.61

00:06:59.600 Forgive yourself.

00:07:00.500 And, you know, you became, you know, I had millions of followers and, you know, maybe some of the stuff I was saying was a bit much.

00:07:07.020 Now having daughters, I look at it differently.

00:07:09.520 But, yeah, Jesus, it was a hatchet job.

00:07:11.660 And so the video came out.

00:07:15.060 It obviously went viral.

00:07:16.760 Then what happened?

00:07:17.760 Well, my manager called me in and said, they're now, because I had a tour, which I've been paid a massive advance for, a big UK tour.

00:07:29.260 Yeah.

00:07:29.560 And my manager came in and said, right, the press, the journalists are now targeting the venues, saying, sending, you know, so the actual journalists were tweeting the venues saying, have you seen our piece on the pro-rape comedian that's coming to your tour?

00:07:44.420 So my manager, we had a lot of crisis meeting and they were like, the venues are dropping, right?

00:07:49.740 So the tour is getting cancelled.

00:07:51.320 So that was the next big hit.

00:07:52.700 You know, the money that you have earned from this has got to go back and you might even get sued, which I did actually end up getting doing.

00:07:59.180 I got, there was a lot of financial implications to the commitments I've made because of what they considered was my behaviour at one of my gigs.

00:08:07.220 So that was the first thing, the tour was scrapped, the tour was cancelled, TV show was scrapped.

00:08:12.480 Then my management, then the press were contacting the other artists on the roster.

00:08:17.360 So the other, the other talent and putting pressure on them.

00:08:20.880 Do you want to really be on a roster with the pro-rape guy?

00:08:24.540 So then the management said, sorry, mate, our talent is saying they're going to leave if you don't leave.

00:08:29.060 So you're fired.

00:08:29.660 So then my management dropped me and then my dad died within, within a short amount of time.

00:08:37.680 I think a matter of weeks, he randomly passed away.

00:08:40.500 And then that was really like a big rock bottom for me.

00:08:42.740 And I said, and the press, I couldn't stop the press.

00:08:45.820 They were like everywhere.

00:08:47.700 And I asked my management just before they'd sort of let me go, how do I stop it?

00:08:53.460 And they suggested Newsnight, go on Newsnight and apologise.

00:08:56.300 And that's how I ended up on Newsnight in a turtleneck saying sorry. 0.99

00:09:02.260 Which you will do when you're about to kill yourself. 0.99

00:09:05.280 Yeah. 0.95

00:09:05.800 Isn't it really interesting, Dan, that the complete lack of empathy that people had when you were facing financial ruin,

00:09:16.880 your father had just passed away and it didn't matter because they were still coming in.

00:09:21.820 Yeah.

00:09:22.460 And they were still trying to eviscerate and destroy every semblance of your career.

00:09:28.140 Yeah.

00:09:28.500 The worst, the worst thing was, was the apology actually made it worse.

00:09:32.040 Yeah.

00:09:32.360 The, the, I finally realised that they don't want an apology.

00:09:35.780 They want you to die or they want you to go.

00:09:37.560 So, and I couldn't comprehend, what I thought, because I am extremely motivated and I believe creatively I'm talented.

00:09:44.900 And I thought this is going to be really bad, but I'll come back from it and I'll, I'll create again and I'll, I'll build it back up again.

00:09:52.140 But I realised very soon that, you know, I'd made a mistake to them that was so bad that I was never allowed to be a comedian again.

00:09:59.780 And never allowed to perform, never allowed to have an audience, never, it doesn't matter what, they just don't want me here to see me.

00:10:06.660 And that, that was when I was like, well, what else do I have?

00:10:10.640 You know, it was, it was a strange, it was like that, it happened as well.

00:10:14.040 That was what I was alluding to when I said there was no, kind of, nobody knew how to deal with it.

00:10:19.540 Because if that were to happen now, there's 53 different ways you could deal with it that probably would be to your advantage in the current climate.

00:10:27.840 Because you just do a video showing how they misrepresented what happened.

00:10:31.760 And then loads of people would come out on your side and you'd carry on, etc.

00:10:35.520 But back then, I also think it's probably the case that the media had way more power than they do now, right?

00:10:40.480 Would that be fair to say, do you think?

00:10:41.580 Yeah, and I think 100%.

00:10:43.500 And I also think that the public are wise to it.

00:10:46.400 I think, I think like before the clickbait, they didn't know it was clickbait, you know?

00:10:51.740 So, so like, say for instance, like I was, I was doing gigs, say for instance, there was one up in Glasgow that they managed to get cancelled quite early on.

00:10:58.800 And they simply just had an article that said pro-rape comedian coming to Glasgow, right?

00:11:03.180 And you had to click on it to go through, to actually see the context of what I'd done.

00:11:06.720 But who clicks on articles?

00:11:08.340 Not a lot of people, right?

00:11:09.580 So I could see all the comments going, ain't even reading it, don't want him here, da-da-da-da-da-da. 0.98

00:11:14.100 So now people are, I think, a little bit more intelligent to how the media behave.

00:11:18.780 And also after we've had the deaths of people, you know, like Caroline Flack and other people, you know, where the media basically killed them or pushed them into killing themselves.

00:11:29.340 If the talent pushes back a little bit, especially with mental health, they ease off like Philip Schofield.

00:11:34.620 But to me, I was, to me, I was just at the bottom of a packet of cocaine and in a pub, do you know what I mean?

00:11:42.400 I was just like, if I hide for long enough, maybe when I come back up, they'll be gone.

00:11:46.620 But it didn't end, it didn't stop for years, years. 0.71

00:11:49.600 You know what I find really hypocritical about all this is that Frankie Boyle has been doing rape jokes since God knows when. 0.96

00:11:56.180 Yeah.

00:11:56.740 They're online, you can go and see them.

00:11:59.880 Doesn't affect him.

00:12:00.720 No one says he's a pro-rape comedian, but you.

00:12:04.260 Yeah.

00:12:05.560 Again, it wasn't until I sobered up that I'd look back on this and I could look at it from an educated point of view.

00:12:10.740 I think that what comes into it, especially the difference maybe with people like Frankie Boyle and Jimmy Carr, I initially thought maybe it's classism.

00:12:19.880 Do you know what I mean?

00:12:20.360 Maybe the way that the journal or the way that the industry is, look, he's dangerous.

00:12:27.120 He's not intelligent enough to be being ironic.

00:12:29.880 Do you know what I mean?

00:12:30.440 Whereas Jimmy Carr, we know he's educated.

00:12:33.320 He doesn't mean it.

00:12:34.080 It's a joke.

00:12:35.100 Right.

00:12:36.360 But then I think it's got to do with social media following.

00:12:40.380 You know, I was one of the first to hit a million on Facebook, a million on Snapchat.

00:12:43.520 I was growing.

00:12:44.380 And I think that they get intimidated, especially the big newspaper publications and people in charge.

00:12:51.560 I think they get intimidated by your influence.

00:12:54.220 Yeah.

00:12:54.420 And I think there's also probably an element of like there's a difference between a character and a comedian telling jokes.

00:13:02.620 And I think, frankly, a lot of people in the media don't understand comedy.

00:13:07.200 So they don't understand that it's possible.

00:13:09.700 And I've come up with like, I remember doing this thing when Jerry Sadowitz got cancelled in Edinburgh.

00:13:14.460 Yeah.

00:13:15.440 Doing a thing for the BBC.

00:13:16.980 It's on our channel where the guy goes, well, but isn't the opinions that this guy expressed, aren't they terrible? 1.00

00:13:22.320 And I was going, it's a fucking character. 0.98

00:13:25.100 Like they're not the opinions of this person. 0.99

00:13:27.580 He's, it's like Macbeth.

00:13:29.420 You go, you don't go and see Macbeth and go, oh, my God, someone stabbed someone.

00:13:34.020 It's a show.

00:13:34.940 Yeah, but yeah, I mean, look, around the same sort of time or not just, or maybe not too far after was the age of Ali G.

00:13:42.400 Yes.

00:13:42.900 And Ali G was on Channel 4 walking out underneath a big woman's batty, you know, coming out and doing all these sexual innuendos. 0.99

00:13:50.240 But, you know, again, he's a highly educated, well-spoken, you know, I don't know what it is.

00:13:56.340 I was a working class lad off a council estate playing a working class lad.

00:14:00.680 Yes.

00:14:01.080 You know, but look, it's, maybe I should have been a little bit more intelligent.

00:14:05.020 If I could turn back time now, I would have gone on Newsnight as a character.

00:14:08.660 Yeah.

00:14:09.180 As like an Oxford educated, you know, it was just, the whole thing was just an idea to, you know, it was just, you know, just go on there really posh and really emphasize that.

00:14:18.440 To highlight the problems of the club.

00:14:19.920 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:14:21.120 Yes, I was here to highlight lad culture and the problems with it. 1.00

00:14:23.960 You all fell for it.

00:14:25.160 But unfortunately, I was emotionally destroyed by that point.

00:14:28.160 Yeah, and I, that was the thing though, because I was looking back at that interview and you, emotionally destroyed, really nails it.

00:14:38.780 You look like a human being who was suffering.

00:14:41.940 Yeah.

00:14:42.300 Deeply suffering.

00:14:43.920 Yeah.

00:14:44.160 Well, I was, I was suicidal and, you know, I was, I didn't realize it then, but I was also right in the grips of addiction.

00:14:50.160 A lot of lads out there will go through a similar thing in life where, you know, they play with drink and drugs on a social, on a social playing field, you know, on a social landscape, you know, at weekends and stuff like that.

00:15:02.040 And then when things get a little bit tricky for them in life or they're stressed, it starts off with, you know, heavy week at work, I need to get smashed.

00:15:08.600 Yeah.

00:15:08.760 Heavy week at work, you know, when a missus is doing my editing, I need to get smashed. 0.97

00:15:11.680 And when you start leaning towards like cocaine, especially as a way to cope with life, when big shit happens to you, your coping mechanism destroys you.

00:15:21.120 I mean, it was the first time I locked myself away and drank and used and it really wasn't the right time for me to be on TV, but I wanted to stem, you know, the onslaught from the media. 0.62

00:15:33.180 And that's such a profound point because I think as blokes, particularly the type of background that we're from where, you know, you're taught, you know, you've got to, and look, there's, there's also something to be said.

00:15:43.600 You've just got to crack on, keep going.

00:15:45.180 I believe in that.

00:15:45.820 But also that culture where it goes, well, you go out, you get hammered, you know, and forget about it, mate, just have a few beers, you'll be all right.

00:15:55.800 Eventually, if you keep doing that, it will ruin you, it will wreck you.

00:15:59.660 Yeah, it did.

00:16:00.800 It did.

00:16:01.860 It's, yeah, it's, it's scary, the power that they have over people in the industry now.

00:16:08.860 And I know for a fact that majority of comedians that are out there, they're not, they can't express themselves fully in the fear of, you know, to me, you know, when you look at fame and following and, you know, notoriety and, you know, when you start making your way up, you want to grab hold of it.

00:16:27.260 You know, so hard to get, it's so hard to get anywhere in the industry and you want to grab hold of it.

00:16:31.700 And the way that they can just go and snatch it from you is terrifying.

00:16:35.280 It is.

00:16:35.980 How did you know you had a problem?

00:16:38.420 Because, you know, we've all had a big sesh.

00:16:40.560 We've all had a, you know, we've gone out a bit too much.

00:16:43.460 There's also been times where we've overindulged for a prolonged period of time.

00:16:48.200 But how did you know that this was a real problem?

00:16:51.880 Well, I didn't for up until probably about a year and a half ago.

00:16:55.800 I was still sort of battling with the idea that, you know, I deserved it and it was just the way I coped with life.

00:17:02.820 But I realised I had a problem when I tried to stop.

00:17:07.520 And look, I couldn't see that it was destroying things at home for me because in this industry that we work in, a lot of people love a drink and everything else.

00:17:18.220 And I used to use that as a bit of an excuse if I was doing a show, I'd be out and doing it.

00:17:22.520 And it took me away from my family. And then the comedowns and the hangovers were disastrous for having a young family.

00:17:28.960 Two little baby girls. I've got two little beautiful girls and a northern wife, which don't put up with no shit. 1.00

00:17:35.260 You know what I mean? So it was the comedowns and the hangovers were hell, you know. 0.99

00:17:38.440 I'd just be handing the kids iPads and, you know, and it caused a lot of friction with me and the wife. 1.00

00:17:43.520 We only recently got married last year.

00:17:45.900 And shortly after that, we broke up because I was just losing my mind, you know, going out on heavy sessions, coming back.

00:17:53.340 And she was arguing and saying, look at you, you know, why are you still doing this? 0.98

00:17:57.540 And I was like, why are you ruining my fucking fun? Nearly 40 years old, still on it. 0.98

00:18:01.700 And I thought, right, I've got to stop and then try to stop and realise that I couldn't cope with life without a fuck you button. 0.98

00:18:09.280 You know, I needed a button to, you know, it was everything was too much for me, you know, the guilt and shame of the past or, you know, dealing with dealing with whatever life was thrown at me in the stress. 0.98

00:18:20.000 I had no other way of I hadn't worked out other ways to cope with life.

00:18:24.520 So I kept pressing the button, even though I said I was going to stop and I didn't want to.

00:18:28.600 And then it dawned on me, I'm an addict. You know, I'd become addicted to that.

00:18:33.720 And what were the triggers for you? What was the moment that you went, you know what, screw this. I'm off. I'm off on a sesh. I'm off to get wrecked.

00:18:42.500 Mate, my triggers could be anything from, it's the same as all the other lads out there that are in the midst of it, could be anything from a bank holiday weekend.

00:18:49.640 Yeah.

00:18:50.040 You know, the sun being out. Do you know what I mean? It's just like the sun would be out.

00:18:54.560 Life is tough, the sun is out.

00:18:55.920 Yeah, yeah. You know, a bit of a stressful week. But to be honest with you, I could rarely drink, you know.

00:19:00.540 I could go out and drink, depending on the company, and not get on anything else. 0.97

00:19:05.860 But rarely, you know, I'd get four or five drinks in and I'd be like, let's just go fucking mental.

00:19:11.180 What I realise now through all the work I've done on my sobriety and my podcast and all that is that the pure escapism is what I was addicted to.

00:19:19.420 The oblivion, right? Like I just, I could never cope with being myself.

00:19:23.520 And I think that's part of the reason why I've spent my whole working career creating characters, Jim and Steve, Kid Frankie, all of these different characters.

00:19:31.020 And losing myself in that is sitting with myself and being with myself for too long became really awkward.

00:19:37.080 And normally towards the end of the week, I was waiting for an excuse, trying to cause an argument or some just to get out, get to the pub and seek oblivion.

00:19:44.480 And how did you get through it? How did you overcome it?

00:19:50.360 Well, firstly, like anyone that's been sober or through a programme or anything like that, I had to go, I had to go away, take myself away to like a rehab.

00:19:59.960 But I mean, I had to hit a rock bottom first. I'd had many, you know, after my father had passed away, I considered suicide one evening and luckily spoke to the Samaritans. 0.81

00:20:09.500 I still didn't even think I had a problem because I was, I was on the drugs and everything.

00:20:13.820 And it was weird because I'd broken up with my missus then and moved into my drug dealer's house, which I thought was a good idea.

00:20:20.860 He had a spare room and drugs.

00:20:24.480 But he just got brand new white carpet. Business was good for him, obviously.

00:20:28.720 He had a brand new white carpet and I laugh about it, but I was thinking about cutting my wrists and then I was like, I don't want to fuck his carpet up. 0.98

00:20:35.740 And that's why that's, that was like, that stopped me for a while. And then I was like thinking of other ways. 0.98

00:20:40.220 And then I was like, you're thinking about committing suicide, mate. You're fucked. Something's wrong with you. 1.00

00:20:45.100 So I couldn't speak to my mum, couldn't speak to, you know, I broke up with my missus, weren't going to tell my mates and rang the Samaritans. 0.97

00:20:51.660 And that was the first time that I realised my mental health was screwed.

00:20:55.140 But I, and I bounced up from there, but I still couldn't associate it with the drink and drugs.

00:21:00.680 But my, my, my wife had to have had enough of it and we were away in Marbella at a film premiere and I just, we'd had a massive fallout the day before.

00:21:08.620 And we were going to Marbella and she said, just don't drink when we're there and don't do drugs.

00:21:12.400 I was like, look, I won't do drugs, but I've got to drink. We're in Marbella.

00:21:15.240 And then once I started drinking, the other thing happened. She flew back and when she was like, don't just don't come home, you know, and then I was like, what about the kids?

00:21:22.820 You know, but I mean, I stayed there for days, like burying my head in the sand, drinking and whatever. And then by the time I got back, my life, you know, I couldn't go home.

00:21:32.320 And then I suddenly, I was sobering up going, who the fuck is this guy? What, like, what is it? And that was, that was my rock bottom. 0.99

00:21:39.160 I had to save the one, the only thing that means the world to me, which was my family.

00:21:43.560 So I took myself away and then day by day by day, just didn't drink and didn't, didn't use and really focused on identifying triggers.

00:21:52.080 And the big change for me and anyone out there that's struggling, I think is, and this is why I'm so deep into mindset now, which is the key.

00:22:00.140 And it's helped me so much with everything is realizing that the changing point for me is realizing that the voice in our head isn't us.

00:22:08.240 So the thoughts in our head that we don't have to follow the thoughts in our head.

00:22:13.300 So when I'd be like, I need to drink or I'm missing out or that's too stressful.

00:22:17.840 I can't handle it. I'd be like, who is that? Because that ain't me.

00:22:21.620 Yeah. You know, and I could decide whether or not, and I could see it as a trigger and then working on, on that narrative.

00:22:27.600 And then I realized that in order to overcome the voice, I had to build mental, mental resilience.

00:22:32.540 So I started boxing and, you know, tried to channel my addictive personality into positive addictions, doing the cold water dips, just anything I saw online.

00:22:39.820 That's all people doing that was hard to do that. I had to use my, my, my mental resilience to continue to do.

00:22:47.340 And, uh, and then the voice just became easier and easier to ignore until my life turned into sobriety.

00:22:52.440 So interesting. You say that because I know about me that I have an addictive personality.

00:22:56.540 I've never been addicted to like drugs or alcohol or anything like that. And I realized, um, that I have an addictive personality and I just have to get addicted to the right things.

00:23:06.240 Yeah.

00:23:06.340 Uh, because I remember one time, a friend of mine, when I was 18, took me to a casino and I remember just, he, he gave me this chip that was like a hundred quid or something.

00:23:16.820 And I remember just looking at it in my hand thinking, this does not feel like a hundred pounds.

00:23:20.920 Yeah.

00:23:21.620 And if I get into this, it's not going to end well.

00:23:24.240 Yeah.

00:23:24.460 And so I've always just made sure that I, it's like, like you say, not, not getting addicted to the wrong thing, but you're still going to be addicted to something.

00:23:33.960 So you just got to find the right thing to get addicted to.

00:23:36.500 A hundred percent. I think we're just, we're, we're dopamine chasers, you know, whether it's on your phone, whether it's in the gym, whether it's porn, uh, gambling, sex, drugs, whatever, you know, we are going to chase dopamine, those little sparks.

00:23:49.720 So you've got to pick the right, pick the right.

00:23:51.420 And one thing that's really interesting about your story, I think particularly bringing, you know, the sobriety and what happened with your comedy character together is you, I imagine particularly when you're drinking, taking drugs,

00:24:03.320 you've got a lot of guilt, you've got a lot of shame, et cetera. And you're probably thinking, well, I, I, you know, I deserve to be canceled. I did things wrong.

00:24:11.800 But then it's interesting to me because I think on reflection and as I hear your story, I've never really delved that deep into it. I don't know that you did do anything wrong. Exactly. Do you know what I mean?

00:24:21.840 It's difficult because I believe that now, I believe now that some of the stuff I did was irresponsible, you know, with a big platform. Right.

00:24:29.420 Like what?

00:24:30.180 I think like, you know, some of the jokes, some of the vines I did, although I still find it's such a conundrum because I still find them funny.

00:24:36.380 Yeah.

00:24:36.840 You know, like I'll give you an example. One of the, one of the, one of the vines I did while I was, uh, uh, obviously it's an actress, you know, someone else that's in the industry.

00:24:44.680 And I'm like, I'm pretending, but as dapper, I walk up with the phone. I'm like, all right, sweetheart, can I smell your fanny? And she's like, no, you can't. I'm like, well, it must be your fucking feet then. Right. It's just a gag. Right. 0.64

00:24:54.860 So I'd always just try and find them gags, those written gags and then put them in, throw away. But then when you've got millions of, this is the, this is the part when you've got millions of followers and there's a lot of lads out there emulating what you do.

00:25:07.140 You know, now that I've got daughters, I look at them like, what do I really want lads walking around with their phones? You know, because people are stupid. Right. 1.00

00:25:13.440 So, so I'm always split. I half believe anything goes in comedy as long as there's not malice. But then I also believe that if you've got a big following, you've got a responsibility to put the correct message out.

00:25:24.540 So I'm, I'm stuck. But where I'm at now through my sobriety is I know for a fact that there was no malice involved in the rape joke and the rape comment and the level of cancellation and the hatchet job.

00:25:35.040 I'm at peace with. Whereas over the last, like I say, up until about a year ago, over the last nine years, I beat myself up about it.

00:25:42.500 I couldn't live with myself, you know, what I'd put myself through, what I'd lost, what could have been.

00:25:47.420 And, and that's why I hid in, in oblivion. Do you know what I mean?

00:25:50.680 So it's a tricky one, but sobriety has given me the foresight to sort of look at it and go, well, you wouldn't be here talking about it unless, you know, you've got a great story.

00:25:59.460 So you made it to trigonometry. So anyone out there, rape jokes. 1.00

00:26:06.180 But do you think part of the problem as well is those, that type of humour you'd hear on the building site, those are the type of, well, I like, I used to work in a working man's club in South London.

00:26:16.440 That's why when I, when I left school, that's what I did when I wasn't at uni.

00:26:21.100 Yeah.

00:26:21.340 And I, see, I hear that. And that, that is just lads that I grew up with. That is the type of humour that we had. And we would see no malice in it because it was part of our culture.

00:26:33.640 Like when someone comes in, you know, he was a mate or whatever else, you would rip him, you would take the piss, you'd be harsh.

00:26:41.100 That's how we are. That's how we were brought up. That's how you express love or whatever else.

00:26:46.120 And other people would see it who are not from that culture, who are from a middle class.

00:26:50.600 And be offended.

00:26:51.200 And they'd be a middle, you know, they'd be offended. Like, well, why are you taking the piss out of this? Why are you taking the piss out of that?

00:26:56.440 That's cool.

00:26:57.000 Such a good point.

00:26:57.620 And we'd go, well, it's not because I, I think you're anything less because you get your teeth done or whatever else, but that's just what we do.

00:27:05.700 Yeah. And that's the moral dilemma that I faced because, and, and I made mistakes, you know, because if you imagine I had 5 million followers across, I mean, and I'm talking back in 10 years ago.

00:27:18.040 So as currency goes, that's like, you know, that's like your KSI's now, but I had 5 million followers over here.

00:27:25.860 Right. And then I had 60,000 people that signed a petition over here and a handful of journalists and a load of people that are never going to come to a comedy gig.

00:27:33.480 That are never going to watch my TV show, the canceling me.

00:27:36.960 And I turned my back on the 5 million and said, sorry, I'm sorry, actually, you're right.

00:27:40.560 You lot are right. I'm very sorry.

00:27:42.520 These lot and me and this, this lot and all these lads that didn't have someone out there that were, you know, communicating.

00:27:48.860 They all felt left that let down and they were vocal about that.

00:27:52.680 Did your audience have a go for apologizing?

00:27:55.320 They were upset about that.

00:27:56.220 Yeah. Because for years after that, and I honestly, I mean, three or four years, every time I posted a video, it was rape, rapist, pro-rape, rape, misogynist, sexist. 0.98

00:28:05.780 And then my actual audience, snowflake, pussy, you know, you know, whatever, you know, has been, you should never have apologized, turtleneck wanker. 1.00

00:28:16.320 So I was just like, I was just like. 1.00

00:28:18.700 That one is hard to look at.

00:28:20.760 In the end, I had to, I had to, I had to go with it and take the piss out of myself, you know, and, and admit and hold my hands up and be like, yeah, I was beating up, man.

00:28:28.860 Yeah.

00:28:29.180 Beating up.

00:28:29.660 Yeah.

00:28:30.140 Yeah.

00:28:30.480 It's, and it's also as well, the regret.

00:28:34.520 Yeah.

00:28:34.740 And I, I think that we're not kind to ourselves because we don't talk about the physical reaction that we get from things like cancellation from anxiety.

00:28:45.980 When I get anxious or I get like, I'm, you know, I have a, you know, every day of my life is basically me doing everything I can because I've got, I can go to depression.

00:28:58.480 I can go to, to addiction.

00:29:00.840 I can, that's in me.

00:29:01.920 I know that.

00:29:02.560 Yeah.

00:29:02.820 And every day I work.

00:29:04.200 So that beast that on the shoulder is where it is.

00:29:08.320 But we forget that when we, when we feel anxiety or depression, it's not just mental, it hits your body.

00:29:17.620 Yeah.

00:29:17.760 It can kill you. 0.95

00:29:18.340 It can damage you. 0.80

00:29:19.040 Yeah.

00:29:19.240 And your, your body reacts and you're thinking to yourself, why is my body reacting like this in a physical way?

00:29:24.700 So you're looking back at yourself going, oh, why didn't I do this?

00:29:28.160 Or why didn't I do that?

00:29:29.560 But your body was also doing stuff that you were probably thinking to yourself, what's happening?

00:29:33.840 I was, yeah, I, I, yeah, it's, I got PTSD from it.

00:29:38.100 I must have, because like, even when tiny little things kick off, like I said to you before we started, I'm terrified of using my Twitter.

00:29:43.700 When tiny little things kick off or trolls kick off and stuff like that, I do get that, that anxiety straight away.

00:29:49.520 And, um, I try to be as creatively free as I can. 0.97

00:29:53.280 Um, and I admire people that just don't give a shit, but we didn't have Ricky Gervais, uh, back then saying, I'll never apologize for a joke. 0.98

00:30:01.240 And we didn't have, you know, your Stephen Fry, we didn't have all these people going, you know, I don't give offense, you take it. 0.99

00:30:07.980 And all of these, all of these great voices that were talking about people, you know, at the time it happened, I believed I'd been a terrible person.

00:30:17.080 And, and, and I'd been correctly punished for it. 0.99

00:30:19.800 You know, it wasn't until I stopped taking drugs and drinking that I realized, well, fuck me, you lot done a number. 0.87

00:30:25.420 And I'm curious what you make of it, because one of the things, you know, um, I think like loyalty, especially to people who, who've benefited from your success, uh, or people who, sorry, loyalty to people that, uh, have supported you or have helped you in some way is really important. 0.96

00:30:45.480 Right. And I imagine it would have been very difficult to have your manager drop you right in the middle of all of this, instead of like fighting it with you in some way or guiding you through it.

00:30:56.180 I imagine that would have been difficult as well, because you're kind of, you don't have anyone in your, in your corner anymore.

00:31:01.800 Yeah. Cause I was kind of plucked out of, you know, I was a comedian, but also I had my own business and I was working and, you know,

00:31:08.760 What was your business in then?

00:31:10.080 I was, uh, I had an estate agency. So, you know, I was doing comedy. I went away and done comedy and come back for a bit of money. And, and, you know, I, I, I didn't think comedy was going to work for me. So I was building a business and, um, you know, this, this management company had come gone, look, look at your numbers, you know, and plucked me out of that life and sort of said, look, come with us.

00:31:28.820 We're going to do all of these personal appearances. So I started making loads of money, going to nightclubs and meeting the fans and that. Then I was doing tours. Then they got me a TV show and that.

00:31:36.880 So, you know, I'd left my old life behind. I'm old friends really. And, um, you know, and I was like, you know, I was like making money and, you know, and then it was like, boom. Yeah. Thanks. But fuck off a little bit. And it was, yeah, it was very embarrassing, but also, yeah, quite lonely, but yeah, I didn't really, the only thing I knew to do back then was escape.

00:31:59.800 So, yeah, no, no, totally. And you mentioned friends. That's something I was going to ask you about sobriety as well, because I imagine that when you are someone who drinks a lot and takes drugs a lot, you're surrounded by other people who do the same.

00:32:11.840 And that I imagine makes it harder to change because you're not having to just let go of the habit. You're having to go, let go of a whole social environment that you've created for yourself.

00:32:22.800 Yeah. It's, it's, I think it's one of the main reasons why people struggle to, to get sober and to overcome addiction because unfortunately our culture, our culture looks or us as a people, we look at addiction as somebody that wakes up and leans for a bottle of vodka or that's on a park bench.

00:32:39.680 Yeah. You know, that's what we think addiction looks like. But to me, I didn't drink Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I was recovering. And then Thursday, Friday, I was drinking and then Saturday I was on the packet. Right. And then I was fucked again. But for the last 20 years, I was either drunk or hung over. Yeah. And so, and I learned very quickly that our bodies, our minds, when we're not at base level, when we're, when we're consuming drink and drugs and we're just underneath, our minds are going, what's the fucking problem? Yeah.

00:33:05.480 So you focus on everything else. You know, the missus is doing my head in, this is doing my head in and it turns you quite evil. But what I found with my friends is, is that, you know, if you're saying to them that you're an addict and you've got a problem, but, but they're doing exactly the same as you, if not worse, then it's like you're almost calling them an addict and you're holding a mirror up to them.

00:33:25.700 My friends don't like a mirror held up to them unless it's covered in cocaine. They were like, what do you mean you've got a problem, mate? You're a fucking lightweight. Do you know what I mean? So, and we're all, all

00:33:35.320 growing up, all got families, all got young kids. And then especially if you express why it, you know, it throws shade on them. So I lost a, I'd say lost. They're still there if I want to talk to them, but they, they don't ring me because the only thing we had in common was drinking and doing drugs. So it's hard. It is hard. You got, you got, you mourn, you mourn your old night, old life. When you truly accept that you can no longer drink and you do drugs, you're, you're mourning your old life.

00:33:59.320 Yeah. And that is such a profound point, Dan. I remember when like, cause I was, I use booze. Cause deep down, I'm quite a shy person. I'm quite sensitive. I'm not, so I developed this kind of, you know, taking the piss, quick witted, whatever else in order to cover it.

00:34:15.720 And the reason I started smoking is because back then you could smoke in pubs is that if the conversation got awkward, you put a fag in your mouth and then you start, you start smoking. The reason I started drinking was the same. It was a way to cope with anxiety. And then it gave me confidence. So I could be a bit more Jack the lad taking the piss banter, banter, banter, banter, banter, banter.

00:34:36.940 The moment I took those comfort blankets away, all that was left was Francis. And then suddenly I realized, oh, I've got a whole load of stuff that I need to deal with, which is a lifetime of work. Let's be honest.

00:34:50.860 But I always remember telling one of my mates, I went to him, Pete, you know, I've, I've given up a drink, mate. I can't do it. It's, it's, it's, it's destroying my life.

00:34:58.760 And, um, I remember him saying to me after a while, he goes, you know something, Francis, ever since you've given up the booze, mate, you're not as much fun.

00:35:08.300 Oh, I've had that.

00:35:09.180 Yeah. That, that was like, I've had that.

00:35:11.920 That was right there. That was a little knife.

00:35:14.500 Yeah.

00:35:15.260 And I was like, oh.

00:35:17.560 It is hard. And it's what pulled me back in last time because I had a stint of sobriety before, you know, but I'd done it for my missus.

00:35:24.300 I was like, you know, okay, I ain't got a problem. I'll stop.

00:35:26.740 And then Christmas was coming. My mates were like, come on, man. And I was like, all right, I'll just go back to the occasional piss up and like it, but it accelerated so fast.

00:35:35.040 But I'd advise, I think to all men out there, one of the biggest problems that we've got, especially with like male suicide and men's mental health and stuff like that is the fact that men, we don't know who we are because we've got so many different hats that we've got to wear, right? 0.64

00:35:50.220 Yeah.

00:35:50.380 We're dads or we're workers, you know, we've got to work, we've got to earn or we're partners, husbands, but who are you? Right.

00:35:57.520 Because when you're not that and you're with your mates and you're drinking, but who are you?

00:36:01.180 Like, and that's sobriety to me was like, right. So I can't escape this shit. Right. I've got a fucking, so the first part of sobriety, you're like, oh shit, I did that. 1.00

00:36:09.520 I did that. I did that. I did that. And normally if anything would pop up, you know, like I drank at my wedding and it, and it breaks my, it's one of my biggest regrets now because there's a certain part of my wedding that I can't remember and I cause a lot of problems. 1.00

00:36:20.000 And when I started thinking about that at the beginning of my sobriety, I desperately wanted to fucking escape them feelings. But then I sat with it and I got through it and I understood it and I looked back at the reasons why.

00:36:30.900 And then other things started popping up. Oh, remember when you'd done that? Remember when you'd done that? And slowly the first fucking four or five or six months was, it was like, oh my God, I hate myself and I can't escape it.

00:36:41.180 But through all the work that you do, you slowly start putting it all to bed and then everything sort of calms down and you sort of go, oh man, so I'm this guy that actually overcome that and I've sorted that out and you start getting an idea of who you are.

00:36:56.720 And I just recommend it to men so much. Just stop doing whatever you do to escape being yourself to find out who you are.

00:37:03.280 And you talk about the work. What do you mean by the work, Dan?

00:37:05.720 So the work is managing my thoughts, not escaping negative thoughts, you know, dealing with them and also not.

00:37:12.540 So the work to me in life in general, first of all, is building my mental resilience, right?

00:37:18.260 So you saw that I boxed the other day. Boxing for me is one of the best ways to do it because one.

00:37:25.800 Okay, so you knock out 50 year olds.

00:37:27.720 Yeah, that makes you feel good. You know what I mean? I'm not ages. Anyone can have it.

00:37:33.060 Equal, that's what I learned from getting cancelled. Everyone is equal. So I'll smash anyone up.

00:37:41.600 No, but boxing, so it's all about doing things. It's nice and simple. It's all about doing things that I don't want to do for long term gratification instead of short term.

00:37:52.480 It's like the opposite of drugs.

00:37:54.040 So drugs is instantly gratification, instantly happy, instantly achieve my goal. And I had to rewire my mind.

00:38:03.180 So put yourself in positions that I don't want to be in. So first of all, I box at 5.30 in the morning.

00:38:08.500 So I have to get up at 4.30. So the first, every single day, six days a week. So I get up 4.30 in the morning.

00:38:14.120 That's the first thing I don't want to do it. And I've overcome that.

00:38:16.280 And in boxing, the training is horrible. It's gruelling. And that's bad. But what's even worse is the sparring three times a week.

00:38:24.620 So, you know, you've got to fight. So every time you step through the ropes, you're doing something that your mind is telling you not to do.

00:38:29.720 And to me, that work, constantly overcoming fear and all of that stuff, makes not drinking and not taking drugs and not being a twat a piece of piss. 0.95

00:38:40.440 You know what I mean? And also, it tells me that the actual real me is strong.

00:38:46.380 Yeah.

00:38:46.920 Is really strong, you know. And my mind, and now, my negative thought loops, like take jealousy, for instance,

00:38:53.280 or any other things that pop into us as men's minds and can consume us and turn into negative behavior, I can see it now.

00:39:02.140 Like, whereas before, the thought became the feeling. But now the thought doesn't become the feeling.

00:39:09.800 The thought, as it's trying to turn into the feeling, gets taken and thrown away. And it just feels powerful.

00:39:16.660 So interesting what you said about playing long-term games, because this is the thing I always say to the young guys who work here.

00:39:22.300 It's like, all life is, is one big marshmallow test. You know that the marshmallow test is the strongest predictor.

00:39:29.160 I mean, people keep saying it's been debunked and whatever, but it is actually just like in reality, objectively true,

00:39:35.860 whether that particular experiment was well designed or not. But basically, the strongest predictor with kids of lifetime success is this.

00:39:42.940 If you give a kid a marshmallow and you say, you can have it now, in which case that's all you're getting.

00:39:49.200 Or if you hold on to this for like 30 seconds or a minute or five minutes or whatever that time is, I'll give you a second marshmallow.

00:39:56.220 The kids that will wait for the second marshmallow, they're going to be successful.

00:40:00.160 And the ones that have it right then and then, they're not going to be as successful.

00:40:03.780 And that's all life is. If you play short-term games, whether it's drugs, whether it's whatever, you're going to get short-term results.

00:40:09.720 You're going to get the dopamine hit right now. But it's not the same as getting the dopamine hit of building a great body or a great business or whatever it is that you're actually going to take time to do.

00:40:21.080 The satisfaction of taking the time to bear the discomfort for a year, two years, five, ten years, whatever.

00:40:29.360 The payoff then is so different. It's so much bigger.

00:40:33.800 Yeah. And just from hearing that test for the first time, what I took from that as well is the period of time where the child has got to wait.

00:40:41.880 Even anticipating the wait and they have to sit with themselves and their thoughts is the key.

00:40:47.040 If you're confident enough to be able to sit with your thoughts and hold back for the greater good, then yeah.

00:40:53.680 And through sobriety and all of this stuff, it sent me down a road where I'm like, well, I really want to find out.

00:40:58.620 I really want to work out what else is negative.

00:41:02.260 So I started looking into the ego and how I was responding.

00:41:06.960 And I just went on this and I advise it to any men out there.

00:41:09.560 Just sit with yourself without escaping and try and work out what the problem is.

00:41:13.540 And the challenge is as well, I think it's even more difficult now because of social media, because we're surrounded by things that give instant gratification and turn us into dopamine monsters, dopamine things.

00:41:25.320 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me as well, like when you work, I mean, you guys will know this as well.

00:41:30.320 When you, you know, do I want to create great content, like thought-provoking content, or do I want likes?

00:41:37.620 Or, you know what I mean? Because I went down the phase of really hijacking like news stories and then coming up with, you know, I went through a little phase where like, you know, all the trans, transgender stuff and da, da, da.

00:41:48.600 And I was like, yeah, we'd never talk about it.

00:41:51.300 But, you know, but for me.

00:41:53.420 You've got to keep the women audience happy. 1.00

00:41:55.520 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:41:56.400 The female audience wants their trans episode every day. 1.00

00:42:00.080 It's, you know, but again, like the ego.

00:42:04.600 I know what you mean.

00:42:05.200 Yeah, the ego can send you on roots, you know, but when you're passionate, truly passionate about something, it's just the content is so much better.

00:42:13.300 Do you know what I mean?

00:42:13.920 So I'm working, I'm still working all of this stuff out, but it's great.

00:42:16.920 You've got to be authentic to what you truly believe.

00:42:19.200 Exactly, exactly.

00:42:19.940 Otherwise, and the reason, you know what?

00:42:22.320 It's not true from a pure success point of view, because like you say, if you tap into whatever is hot right this second and you do your thing about that, it's going to get the likes, it's going to get the shares, it's going to get the views.

00:42:33.820 And that's true in all sorts of other areas of life.

00:42:36.740 The problem is you never truly feel happy or successful with that success because it's not been earned in a way that's authentic to you.

00:42:44.480 So it's not you that's successful.

00:42:46.720 It's this fake persona you've created.

00:42:49.140 That's exactly it.

00:42:49.960 And also, we can sometimes jump at it so quickly that we express other people's views that we know are popular on those subjects.

00:42:56.440 Yeah.

00:42:56.740 And that's something that I'm desperately trying to veer away from because I truly believe, I don't see my followers as followers.

00:43:02.300 I see my followers like a follower, like a one person, like my audience is one person that will go, hold on a second.

00:43:09.260 Do you really think that or is it popular?

00:43:11.200 Yeah.

00:43:11.440 You know, and I don't want to cheat that person. 0.99

00:43:13.680 And also, if I'm going to divide opinion or be disliked, I want to fucking, I don't want to do what I did before and shit myself. 0.99

00:43:19.960 I want to hold on to it and go, no, I fucking mean that. 0.99

00:43:22.340 Yeah. 0.98

00:43:22.480 Yeah. 1.00

00:43:22.660 And if you don't like it, then fuck off. 1.00

00:43:24.900 Yeah. 1.00

00:43:25.280 You know, which, which is a tough one for me to get to.

00:43:28.300 And it only comes through authenticity.

00:43:29.860 It does.

00:43:30.640 Have you done therapy, Dan?

00:43:32.000 Have you?

00:43:32.500 Yeah.

00:43:32.900 A lot.

00:43:33.100 I, yeah.

00:43:33.980 I actually started back in the day with anger management therapy, but it pissed me off.

00:43:39.520 Honestly, it's so weird. 0.97

00:43:41.920 Honestly, the guy, you'd think that they'd teach the fucking, the, the, the psychologist or whatever to not be so fucking annoying when it's like anger management. 0.96

00:43:50.140 I can see why you need an anger management. 0.98

00:43:51.300 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:43:52.340 Yeah.

00:43:52.620 That was years ago though.

00:43:53.660 Again, before I thought I had a problem.

00:43:55.300 Yeah.

00:43:55.600 You know, and he asked, I can remember he asked me, he said to me, you know, do you, do, do drugs?

00:44:00.020 And I was like, yeah, I'll do a bit of cocaine.

00:44:01.720 And he come up with this analogy where he was like, and he was like this public school boy.

00:44:05.460 And he was like, oh, I was at the Henley regatta and I was, I was sat with, with a bowl, with a, with a cereal bowl of cocaine, just spooning it into my nose. 1.00

00:44:13.640 And I was like, shut the fuck up. 0.99

00:44:15.800 There's no way one, you'd be able to afford all of that cocaine and no one would, you know. 1.00

00:44:19.640 And then he just said he threw it in the river and I was like, oh my God.

00:44:22.440 And he lost me.

00:44:23.340 Yeah.

00:44:23.540 Do you know what I mean?

00:44:23.960 So I couldn't connect with him.

00:44:25.000 You don't treat cocaine like that.

00:44:26.060 No.

00:44:26.280 You have a bit of respect.

00:44:27.120 Yeah, exactly.

00:44:27.780 At least bag it up and sell it or give it to someone.

00:44:29.940 But no, but I couldn't relate to him at all.

00:44:32.000 Yeah.

00:44:32.200 And on my last, on my second to last session of it, I didn't think I had anger management problems at the time, but I clearly did.

00:44:38.860 I was coming back from a gig actually at, at my comedy club.

00:44:42.820 It wasn't mine then before I bought it.

00:44:44.340 You were there the other day.

00:44:45.720 Yeah.

00:44:46.120 I was coming back from a gig from Clapham North to Clapham South.

00:44:48.940 And I got in this cab and I'd been on the Charlie and all of that stuff.

00:44:52.620 And I was arguing with my friend about who was going to pay for the cab.

00:44:55.480 And we didn't know, but the cab driver had taken a detour to like Battersea.

00:44:59.900 Right. And I suddenly realised, and this was like, I had my anger, last anger management thing on the NHS, like the next day.

00:45:07.120 And I thought, where's he taking us? 0.68

00:45:08.460 And then because I was my paranoid cocaine delusion, I thought maybe he's taking us to a secret place where all the taxi drivers, where they take people that don't pay the fares and all the taxi drivers are going to fucking, you know, beat us up. 0.71

00:45:18.000 It's like a secret taxi fight club. 0.72

00:45:19.860 Yeah. So I'm going, no, let me out, let me out.

00:45:22.160 And he pulled up at this building and got out and I had a big bag of Stellas and I smashed the window and climbed out and chased him into this building and punched him. 0.95

00:45:29.020 And it was fucking Battersea Police Station he'd run into. 0.97

00:45:31.660 So I got nicked. And that's, that was the, that was just before I was about to finish my, I say punched him. 0.99

00:45:37.700 I kind of like went to hit him and the guy jumped over the thing and I got arrested.

00:45:41.620 And that was like, right, you seriously, you know, you know, I didn't even stop doing drugs then.

00:45:47.460 You were really dedicated, mate.

00:45:50.020 Yeah. That was crazy. Yeah.

00:45:51.760 But listen, it's, I mean, the one thing that I'm really hearing out of this is, I know this is a weird thing to say, but this needed to happen for you to get sober and like, you're such a different person now.

00:46:04.860 And it sounds like a much healthier and better person too.

00:46:09.120 I bet your missus feels relieved that this has all happened.

00:46:12.240 Yeah. It's crazy because for 10, like we've been together 10 years for nine years, it felt like for like eight and a half years, we didn't know if we were meant to be together because we were arguing and everything like that.

00:46:20.920 And she's so happy, you know, and I'll be honest with you, it's difficult looking back, but it serves as like a, it does serve as like a bit of a, you know, I've showcased it all the last year to my audience, you know, and I've split my audience by, you know, talking about sobriety and being very open about what I thought addiction was and what it actually is and all of this stuff and, and the things I've done wrong and how to be a better father and all that.

00:46:46.040 And it has divided my audience to a certain, some people don't want to hear that.

00:46:49.480 I built my audience on, you know, being wild.

00:46:53.580 But over the last couple of weeks, especially when we found out that she was pregnant, it was extremely emotional because, you know, she's genuine, not, not because she let me shag her again, obviously, but she's genuine.

00:47:05.900 She's genuinely, for the first time, I truly believe in the last 10 years, she's genuinely happy.

00:47:11.780 Like she bounces around.

00:47:13.080 She's, she's like, like when I first met her and it's hard because I look like she'd been dealing with addiction and also the rollercoaster of my career while her life was on hold.

00:47:21.520 Yeah.

00:47:21.840 Um, but you know, I get to do a whole pregnancy sober and become a father and I've got two little babies.

00:47:27.860 So it is beautiful.

00:47:28.920 And, um, I, I think you're right.

00:47:31.400 It, it needed, you know, it, it needed to happen and it's great really.

00:47:35.900 Yeah.

00:47:36.220 Yeah.

00:47:36.620 Yeah.

00:47:36.820 I think for someone who was as wild as you, the low had to be really, really low for you to like wake up to, to the reality of what was going on.

00:47:45.880 So I'm really happy for you, man.

00:47:47.020 And it's, it's such a great, uh, sort of circle to complete in that way.

00:47:52.500 Yeah.

00:47:52.660 I think, I think it serves as a nice, there's a lot of lads struggling, man.

00:47:57.440 I've got a group called men and their emotions on Facebook.

00:48:00.240 It's, it's called, uh, mates men and their emotions.

00:48:02.420 We, unfortunately, like it's just blown up.

00:48:05.540 I say unfortunately, because it just shows how much pain's on there.

00:48:07.880 It's got 50,000 lads in it.

00:48:09.300 And the concept for me was really simple because so many lads were reaching out to me, you know, that was suicidal.

00:48:14.020 And I just didn't feel qualified.

00:48:15.800 I'd, you know, I'd looked at my fucking therapy sessions and I was like, well, I created this group where lads can, they can write in there. 0.96

00:48:23.660 Cause I believe that a massive part of the problem is men need men, right? 0.98

00:48:27.660 Yeah.

00:48:28.060 I believe that men need men, not just like to, to be held accountable, um, to vent, you know, cause we only really are used to venting with drink and drugs or drink or in a pub environment, you know?

00:48:40.880 And through banter.

00:48:42.140 Yeah.

00:48:42.580 But, you know, something that boxing gives me and this group as well is like real men going, well, hold on a second.

00:48:48.240 Your missus shouldn't put up with that. 1.00

00:48:49.740 Yeah. 0.99

00:48:50.060 You know, when you hear it from another man, it's fucking different. 0.97

00:48:53.360 You know, when your missus is going, why should I put up with this? 0.98

00:48:55.700 When another man says she, well, hold on a second, that is an amazing woman, mate. 1.00

00:48:58.780 She shouldn't put up with that shit. 1.00

00:48:59.800 And stuff like I had from my boxing coach, the first time I tried to get sober, how are you going to feel when another man's bringing up your kids? 1.00

00:49:06.400 Cause I'll be honest with you, Dan, I don't think you'll be able to handle it and you'll kill yourself.

00:49:10.560 And I was like, cried on the way home, you know, from boxing and was like, I need to get sober.

00:49:16.660 And, um, it's that it's, that's what we're, we're men are lacking.

00:49:20.480 So this group just gives men the opportunity to post their problems and strangers chip in. 0.98

00:49:25.600 And, um, it's a bit like Jeremy Cole, you know, you watch Jeremy Cole, you don't feel so shit about yourself. 0.98

00:49:29.800 You know what I mean? It's a bit like that, you know, even if you're just watching, you know, other people are going through it. 0.63

00:49:34.700 You know, men, we need friendship. We need it.

00:49:39.120 And as you get older, you know, everybody goes their separate ways and they have their careers and their families.

00:49:44.440 But I think that's something that men really need.

00:49:47.200 We really need other men and we need that bonding experience where we can have a chat, where we can vent.

00:49:53.880 Because one of the things I find worrying about male emotion is, and I look at, I look at myself in this.

00:50:00.080 Is that it's really only anger.

00:50:02.160 And then when everything gets too much with me, it's tears.

00:50:06.140 It just goes, and that's not a healthy way to be.

00:50:09.900 Yeah. I think when you see a man lashing out and being aggressive, he's crying.

00:50:13.320 Yeah.

00:50:14.000 You know what I mean? He hasn't been taught how to cry.

00:50:16.800 Like I used to look at all this wellbeing stuff, you know, and when people used to say, I used to hate it.

00:50:22.220 When people, I used to think it was an upper class thing.

00:50:24.200 When people would say that they're going to, I'm finding myself. 0.99

00:50:26.900 I'm going to find, I'm like, what the fuck do you mean? 0.99

00:50:28.340 You're right there. 0.99

00:50:29.280 But the truth is, is men, especially if they haven't had a father figure, which a lot of us haven't, but men are expected, you know, stiff upper lip, man up.

00:50:40.740 Don't worry.

00:50:41.240 Go and graft, have a beer.

00:50:42.600 You know, you'll be all right.

00:50:43.420 As long as you're making money, as long as you're making money and you're shagging or whatever, you'll be all right.

00:50:48.200 They don't know how to express themselves at all.

00:50:50.860 And the key to it is talking, right?

00:50:52.280 And through my sobriety, I haven't been able to shut up about, you know, you see my podcast.

00:50:57.980 I mean, I'm crying on my podcast all the time.

00:51:00.040 You know, when I go back to stuff that I've done wrong personally myself, I really try and hone in on that emotion and I let it out.

00:51:06.000 And when you see men like smashing things up or going wild or fighting, that's them crying, but they haven't learned how to cry.

00:51:12.960 You know what I mean?

00:51:13.800 Yeah.

00:51:14.100 And it's because we only have access.

00:51:16.560 It's not, if you think about it like a piano and your emotions are all the keys, we only have access to a couple of keys.

00:51:24.100 So if you've only can play one key, you're going to play one key really hard, which is the anger, the rage, the lashing out.

00:51:31.440 Yeah.

00:51:32.100 Big one for me has been trolls.

00:51:34.180 Trolls really used to, I don't know why, they used to, and I'm reading this book at the moment called Ego is the Enemy.

00:51:39.080 And I'm learning so much about how I view myself, you know, like I thought I just looked at myself as a creative comedian, you know, and I come up with these characters and the comedy and I think, oh, you're a little bit of a comedy genius.

00:51:51.200 But it turns out that actually through the followers and, you know, the money and the whatever, I kind of fell into this weird thing of thinking, no, I'm actually really special.

00:52:01.720 So when a troll would say something to me, I'd be like, how dare you, you know, how dare they. 0.95

00:52:06.580 Now that I'm working on my ego, just realizing, look, you're just a fucking normal comedian that's a little bit more creative, that's had a couple of breaks, that grafts hard. 0.97

00:52:14.260 I can be like, well, yeah, whatever you're saying, mate, it's like whatever. 0.95

00:52:17.540 It might be, you know, so I'm working on that.

00:52:19.560 And I think for us men, that's a massive part of mental health problems because we all have this like idea in our minds that we are supposed to be this.

00:52:27.760 And if we're not that, then we're not enough.

00:52:30.780 Do you know what I mean?

00:52:31.440 Yeah.

00:52:31.760 Yeah, I think that's really important, especially in the modern world where I think, I mean, this is bluntly put, but I do think it's true.

00:52:40.380 There's a lot of women telling men how they're supposed to be. 1.00

00:52:44.000 And I'm like, with all possible respect, you don't know what you're talking about.

00:52:47.620 Yeah, yeah.

00:52:48.400 You know, so in that world, I think it's increasingly important for guys to be talking to each other.

00:52:55.840 And also for male role models, because, and you see this with like the Andrew Tate's of the world and whatever.

00:53:01.720 You're going, I don't think that's a good role model for men at all.

00:53:05.520 But I also think the fact he's a symptom of the problem.

00:53:09.220 He's not the, people, like all these journalists want to make it out like Andrew Tate is the problem.

00:53:14.500 Andrew Tate is not the problem.

00:53:16.000 It's the fact that men would listen to someone like Andrew Tate that's telling you what the problem is.

00:53:20.600 And that means these men do not have good role models in their lives who can go, no, no, this is actually how you do this.

00:53:28.660 Yeah.

00:53:28.840 Andrew Tate is such a conundrum, isn't it?

00:53:30.460 Because, you know, me and my wife, I know Andrew, actually, I've met, I've met him.

00:53:34.160 I met him in a really strange way back in the day, because on Twitter, we had a bit of a conflict because he was, he was talking about, you know, mental health not being a real thing and depression and that.

00:53:45.040 And I actually quoted one of his tweets and started going in on him and then clicked on his profile.

00:53:49.660 This was before he was massive.

00:53:51.200 I had more followers than him at the time. 0.99

00:53:53.000 And I clicked on his profile and then saw that he was like a fucking kickboxing champion. 0.97

00:53:56.700 And I was like, all right, mate, let's, let's wind it in. 0.96

00:53:59.000 And then I bumped into him randomly at an event with him and his brother walking down.

00:54:02.360 And they were, he was like, remember me?

00:54:04.660 And I was like, and they both went, ah.

00:54:06.240 So he had like a laugh and a joke with me.

00:54:08.380 And in person, I thought he was great.

00:54:10.900 But my wife, obviously, she's very much like, I don't like his stuff and da, da, da, da, da, da.

00:54:16.340 And I'm like, but he speaks some sense, right?

00:54:18.580 That is the problem because mixed in with everything that, whatever he does and all of that, there's messages in what he says that men resonate with because there's no one else talking about it.

00:54:26.920 That's my point.

00:54:27.400 And the only other thing that we, we get to see, and I swear to God, I've always been terrified of even talking about how narcissistic women can be and how, and how sort of, how, how it looks, what it looks like, what the landscape of social media and the world looks like from a man. 0.82

00:54:45.720 It's like, you're almost terrified to be a man.

00:54:47.960 You know what I mean?

00:54:48.700 And, and it's constant negativity.

00:54:51.000 You're this, you're that, you're this, you should do this.

00:54:53.820 And if you don't do this, it's, you know, you're not good enough.

00:54:55.960 It's not social media, it's the media, it's movies, it's advertising.

00:54:59.480 It's, it's the entire kind of content space is filled with these messages of like, you're not allowed to be a man the way that a man needs to be to be actually fulfilled and happy and have purpose and meaning and whatever, which is what Andrew Tate is happening to.

00:55:15.040 I have literally, while I don't like a lot of the things that he says, and I have no issue with Andrew Tate because people wouldn't be listening to Andrew Tate if there wasn't the problem in the first place.

00:55:24.860 He's just fulfilling a need that's there.

00:55:27.120 And if there were healthier role models and if there were, and this is why Jordan Peterson became so big, because he was the first person that came along and actually said to men for like a decade.

00:55:37.600 Oh my God.

00:55:38.080 Yeah.

00:55:38.240 You, it's okay to be a man.

00:55:39.340 It's okay to be a man.

00:55:39.920 Yeah.

00:55:40.080 Yeah.

00:55:40.440 And, and not just that, like you, you do not know the joy and like the, the, the, the happiness I was filled with where I, when I saw him arguing with journalists that I'd seen put me down and go, well, hold on a second.

00:55:52.380 I didn't actually say that.

00:55:53.520 And, and, and, and like saying to them, sorry, are you, you know, are you angry about something?

00:55:57.740 And, and then, you know, I watched that and I was like, mate, I wish that I was articulate enough or intelligent enough to, or back then had the foresight to, to, you know, or the patience or the confidence to say, well, actually guys, there's no malice in anything I said. 0.91

00:56:12.460 And the only people that are offended by what I said are because of the, or the way that you've twisted it and given it to them because no one at my fucking show complained about a thing. 0.79

00:56:21.080 Do you know what I mean? 0.88

00:56:22.260 So, you know, hopefully there'll be, there'll be more, it's difficult to, how many successful male men out there don't get attacked as well?

00:56:31.680 Do you know what I mean?

00:56:32.480 It's very difficult to be successful.

00:56:35.120 It's men and women.

00:56:36.300 The moment you're successful, you get attacked.

00:56:38.100 That's just how it is.

00:56:39.000 Yeah.

00:56:39.260 Yeah.

00:56:39.840 Yeah.

00:56:40.200 I, I, sometimes I've got to hold myself back because it was a lot of female journalists. 1.00

00:56:45.420 It was a lot of, you know, what I thought was toxic feminism and, you know, like I handled the way that I was, you know, and I, I went on like a PR thing for a little while as well, where I'd go and sit down and do interviews with a lot of journalists and be like, yeah, I get it.

00:56:59.680 You know, I want to learn more.

00:57:01.080 You know, I even sat and said, I want to learn more about sexism.

00:57:03.460 I want to learn more about this culture you're talking about.

00:57:05.420 And then they would simply go, Dapper thinks we should educate him not to rape and stuff like that.

00:57:09.660 And then I just thought, I just thought after that, I just thought, do you know what?

00:57:14.360 Yeah. 1.00

00:57:14.680 Fuck off then. 1.00

00:57:15.440 And I'll, you know, it's very hard. 1.00

00:57:16.940 You know what? 1.00

00:57:17.520 A lot of women are fed up with this shit as well. 1.00

00:57:19.500 I say this all the time. 1.00

00:57:20.460 Like my wife hates all this stuff. 0.57

00:57:22.600 She's completely not into any of this.

00:57:24.340 She doesn't, she's just interested in, you know, being a mother and doing the stuff that she does within her own life and whatever.

00:57:30.300 But she sees, everyone sees this.

00:57:32.820 And a lot of women see the same toxic narratives being pushed because women want men too. 0.58

00:57:40.180 Women want men to be men too. 0.99

00:57:42.220 Yeah. 0.98

00:57:42.280 But what you have is a small sliver of the kind of content creating class who are pushing these messages because it fits with their fucking narrative about, you know, toxic masculinity or whatever.

00:57:53.900 Which is why it's really great to hear your journey from what happened to where you are now. 0.54

00:57:59.580 I'm just really happy for you, man.

00:58:00.980 It's awesome.

00:58:01.820 I really love it.

00:58:02.740 And it's been great having you on the show.

00:58:04.180 So, as you know, the last question we always ask is what's the one thing that we're not talking about as a society that we shouldn't be before we go to our locals and ask you a bunch of questions from our supporters?

00:58:14.660 Why?

00:58:15.260 I think the fact that mental health and well-being isn't implemented into our children at school.

00:58:23.240 I think that's something that through my struggles, because I always knew that it wasn't good to drink and it wasn't good to do drugs, but I never really knew why.

00:58:32.440 And, you know, and also, I've got a toolbox now of things that I use very much like yourself if I'm having a bad day or if I can see my mind is going in the wrong direction.

00:58:46.040 But that's a toolbox that I've had to put together and create after years and years of self-abuse and trauma.

00:58:54.520 And, you know, really that toolbox has been created at halfway through my life, you know, luckily before my, you know, start can pass on to my kids.

00:59:02.380 So I think that we need to talk more about creating them toolbox for kids while they're at school. 0.87

00:59:07.260 Well, here's something I might disagree with you on, actually, because my worry with what's happening in schools is, I mean, they're being taught all kinds of crazy shit right now.

00:59:14.620 And I worry that mental health becomes this thing about how there's 53 genders and whatever. 0.60

00:59:19.840 I actually think you hit the nail on the head when you said pass it on to your kids.

00:59:23.760 Yeah, maybe that's better. 1.00

00:59:24.720 I think ultimately this is shit that parents are going to have to teach their kids. 0.99

00:59:29.760 Yeah. 0.99

00:59:29.880 I think there's actually a third way, like a mate of mine who's a teacher who's implemented stoicism to teaching to primary school kids, which is, I think, a really good way of doing it, which is teaching you, you know, how to be stoic, how to not let your emotions take you away.

00:59:47.020 Yeah.

00:59:47.640 It's just my worry with the educational system is all of this gets perverted, corrupted, and it ends up being, you know.

00:59:54.480 Yeah.

00:59:54.780 That's also true.

00:59:56.040 That is why I'm not.

00:59:56.840 So the people that are, look, ultimately, the best thing that I think you can do for your kids is teach them yourself the things that you have learned and tell them the stories of your own life and really be honest about it because that will grab them.

01:00:09.900 I know that I've had, you know, people in my family do that with me.

01:00:12.880 Yeah.

01:00:13.080 And that's been how I've learned a lot of stuff.

01:00:14.980 But I had to discover a lot of stuff for myself.

01:00:17.120 And maybe that's also part of the journey, man.

01:00:19.540 Yeah.

01:00:19.780 It's a tough one because you're right.

01:00:21.140 Yeah.

01:00:21.500 But yeah, you're right.

01:00:22.680 You're right.

01:00:23.040 But generally, people learning more about the toolbox of how to manage your emotions and all that.

01:00:27.760 Yeah, I think just, yeah, having them conversations with your children, definitely, you know, now that you've said that, the more you think about it.

01:00:34.400 Because my parents, my parents taught me about right and wrong.

01:00:39.280 Yeah.

01:00:39.480 But didn't teach me about how to deal with my emotions.

01:00:41.800 Yeah.

01:00:42.120 Do you know what I mean?

01:00:42.620 Yeah.

01:00:42.960 But also, they were a product of their time.

01:00:44.900 Yeah, exactly.

01:00:45.200 You know, people didn't talk about it back then.

01:00:47.360 People didn't have emotions back then, mate.

01:00:48.680 It was the 1960s.

01:00:51.360 Yeah.

01:00:52.640 Especially, man.

01:00:53.580 Yeah, exactly.

01:00:54.540 So, and I think, you know, sometimes, you know, I'm guilty of this where we go, oh, my parents didn't teach me this, didn't teach me that.

01:01:02.040 And it was like, but they're a product of their time.

01:01:04.540 Yeah.

01:01:04.840 They didn't know what they did.

01:01:05.780 Yeah.

01:01:06.260 They didn't know exactly what they didn't know.

01:01:08.220 We're a product of our time and so on and so forth.

01:01:10.740 So, a big part of this is also forgiveness, forgiving the people who have wronged you, forgiving the people who, when you were brought up, made mistakes, made errors, they were human beings as well and they did their best.

01:01:26.040 Yeah, I certainly don't agree with, you know, I think the Americans are big for it, you know, when it's, you know, they do their therapy and it's all their parents' fault, you know.

01:01:36.720 It can't, it's, you know, it's, yeah.

01:01:38.780 It's all right, A-team, when you get to 41 and you're blaming mum and dad, it's a little bit.

01:01:42.780 Yeah, for sniffing a line.

01:01:43.440 Yeah.

01:01:44.380 I will say this, I don't think it's possible to be truly happy until you've forgiven your parents and become grateful to them.

01:01:51.120 Yeah, 100%.

01:01:52.480 And I think one thing I'll definitely finish this conversation on is that one of the biggest causes of addiction and mental health problems, especially self-loathing and stuff like that, is down to what our narrative is about ourselves.

01:02:08.080 How we feel about ourselves and a massive, massive part is down to the deals that you make with yourself.

01:02:14.100 You know, if you, like, if I go to my boxing gym and my trainer isn't there and that happens a couple of times, I think that guy's a knobhead and I don't want to be around him.

01:02:22.080 And it's the same for ourselves. 0.92

01:02:23.560 If we say, I want to get fit, I want to stop drinking, I want to, and you stop keeping the deals with yourself, the narrative is that you're, you're worthless.

01:02:30.260 So, stop keeping them deals.

01:02:33.320 Beautiful.

01:02:33.920 Head on over to Locals where we ask Dan your questions.

01:02:38.140 Do you believe that the current advocates of wokeness will be able to retain their credibility after its inevitable demise?

01:02:45.600 And do they personally feel capable, do you personally feel capable of forgiving them?

TRIGGERnometry - February 11, 2024

Being Cancelled Made Me Confront and Beat Addiction - Dapper Laughs

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