00:04:28.040Do you think that you have shattered that tribal allegiance that people in those areas used to have for Labour where, you know, my dad voted Labour, my granddad voted Labour, that sort of thing?
00:04:39.520Do you think that's a permanent rupture or do you think you've got this tiny window?
00:04:44.540And as Boris Johnson said, you have to now prove to people that the vote that they lent you was worth lending to you.
00:04:52.520I think the latter certainly broken the allegiance right because I mean you heard I heard in 2017
00:04:58.180even more so in 19 you know my granddad would turn in his grave if if he knew I was going to vote
00:05:02.580Tory but they did and kind of you know sucked it up and closed their eyes and marked the cross kind
00:05:08.540of thing and we do have to show it there's no sense to me at the minute that Keir Starmer or
00:05:14.000Labour have won anybody back over from that perspective but obviously you know Covid's
00:05:18.320really challenging for for many reasons people are pretty depressed largely um so so no huge
00:05:24.340swell of support for the government either and we do need to show over the next three years that
00:05:27.700we're going to do something worthwhile with this parliament and make it worth it particularly that
00:05:31.820investment in those communities and and wanting to see something that that tangibly makes things
00:05:35.860better where they live um so there's a big challenge and you know if we prove the point
00:05:40.140then they'll stick with us uh if not it will be a matter of time before you know labor figure out
00:05:45.440what they're doing and offer them an alternative don't you think we're in this quite weird time
00:05:49.940ben where conservatives represent the working class better than labor and then let labor have
00:05:55.800become the party of the middle class liberal elite it's a big shift isn't it and breaks all
00:06:01.060the stereotypes i think um you know the they've always been that kind of um academic uh islington
00:06:07.440socialists in the labor party and it's always been a bit of a uh an uncomfortable mishmash
00:06:11.720certainly for the last 20 odd years between them and and you know the working class um kind of core
00:06:16.820vote but actually we saw all the way through uh through brexit and and more recently some of the
00:06:21.860cultural discussion about that that disconnect between the two and they they just they cannot
00:06:25.580rub together in those big um kind of statement conversations things like brexit where actually
00:06:31.800it's it's those idlington academics who um not only don't agree with the the kind of working
00:06:36.780class uh leave voters but actually can't stand them um and that's the real problem uh when it
00:06:42.380comes to trying to tie together that political coalition right so um every party has those
00:06:47.220divides is a kind of liberal or a more kind of right-wing divide in the conservative party as
00:06:51.940well um but at the minute we're certainly speaking more for those communities i think and and
00:06:57.740brexit's a indicative of that isn't it well we weren't going to spend too much on brexit but i
00:07:03.080you bring it up. And one of the interesting things is all three of us in this conversation
00:07:06.780voted Remain. Because we're good people. That's the running gag on the show. We're
00:07:12.540very moral people for voting. But equally, all three of us, I think, have a tremendous amount
00:07:18.020of respect for democracy and for the people who voted differently to us. What was that like for
00:07:23.760you representing a constituency that voted differently to you in the referendum?
00:07:28.360to be honest it's been fine i i voted remain on the basis that i think like a lot of my generation
00:07:35.580i'd never given the eu a second thought to be honest um i wasn't born when we went in it's just
00:07:41.820what i've always had um and hadn't particularly to be honest as i said before i fell out about
00:07:47.600the bins and went back to uni and what have you i'd never really thought about politics i wasn't
00:07:50.620interested um so it was an odd one i kind of just went along with what was easiest if i'm being
00:07:57.260totally honest i've got no um no no quarrel with or i didn't have a quarrel with european union i
00:08:04.240think uh it seemed like there were problems i don't want to be part of a federal europe but
00:08:08.540actually was it in the too difficult box was it really worth it and and it wasn't something that
00:08:12.660was important to me so i just kind of stuck with it but i understood the arguments i always have
00:08:16.600and and um since we actually voted to leave i think they've come out even more clearly so
00:08:21.920it has not been that difficult to fall out with the eu since then has it and some of the things
00:08:25.620that they've done and the way that they've approached this negotiation.
00:08:28.580So as we've gone on, you know, I've kind of just embraced it.
00:08:31.400And I think most constituents who pay attention to what I do
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00:20:42.580talking a good game, I want to move on to some of the cultural stuff that we talk about on the
00:20:47.580show quite a bit. And I think you've really made a bit of a name for yourself by being
00:20:52.480problematic, problematic is what your critics might say, or brave is what your supporters
00:20:59.000might say. But you've spoken up about, you know, men's issues, you've talked about all sorts of
00:21:04.560cultural things. And, you know, talking a good game, I think a lot of people felt particularly
00:21:11.520at the last election that the Conservative Party, even one that they didn't necessarily feel super
00:21:17.820enthusiastic about, was their last chance to hold this cultural shift that we are seeing, what people
00:21:26.300refer to as the culture war. And that while the Conservative Party may not offer a perfect
00:21:32.040solution, they were the only opportunity to hold that advance. Obviously, COVID comes,
00:21:38.040it gets in the way of a lot of that stuff. And I think there has been some frustration
00:21:42.840with the conservative government that they're not doing enough on the sort of critical race
00:21:47.900theory and all of that sort of stuff. How do you feel about how your party is doing on that front?
00:21:54.820I think you're right about people seeing it as the last chance of seeing what's happened already
00:21:58.760just in the first couple of weeks of a Biden administration in the States and really going
00:22:02.640to town on all this stuff and embedding that identity politics. I think it's awful.
00:22:08.040um some of that to be honest i guess in terms of performance um there's an element of just
00:22:14.280you know how many hours are there in a day right with with brexit and and uh covid but now we can
00:22:20.740hopefully certainly move on from the brexit stuff as as things come together and you know towards
00:22:25.580the end of this year be free of of covid stuff and actually have that capacity but in the meantime
00:22:30.600there's been been things going on i mean you guys will no doubt have seen um some of what liz trust
00:22:35.840and kemi badenock have been doing in the equality office um kemi gave an amazing speech on um yes
00:22:41.100very impressive um and liz looking at changing uh moving away from that equality act um focus on
00:22:49.500identity politics on physical characteristics and instead what are the the real inequalities
00:22:53.940that drive people's life chances socioeconomic status geographical inequality and things that
00:22:58.780get ignored by the act um i give a uh i held a debate in westminster hall last year about
00:23:04.160how i think the equality act actually disadvantages certain um really disadvantaged groups or
00:23:10.360discriminates against them you know on the basis that if if i'm a really rich well-connected
00:23:15.640black lad from hampshire i can get more support based on the acts than a a poor working white
00:23:20.680class uh poor white working class lad in mansfield um despite the fact that i know that that white
00:23:25.240working class lad has the worst life chances of any group in the country so it doesn't make sense
00:23:29.540And finally, we're getting that, I think, and starting to look at what are the individual issues that hold me back as a person, as opposed to what category I'm in, what box can I be put in? And I think that's a really important step, actually. It's early days. But Liz certainly seems committed to making some big changes there.
00:23:48.780Is that something that's well understood within your party? Because I can tell you with a tremendous amount of certainty that there's a lot of people, particularly in areas like yours, who really passionately care about this stuff. And if the Conservative government doesn't deliver on it, they're going to be upset about it. And, you know, everybody, including us, is going to hold your feet to the fire on this one.
00:24:09.800Yeah, sure. And it's really important. I keep making the point to anybody who'll listen in number 10 about, you know, we talked about 2019 election. It wasn't won on the basis that the Conservatives normally win elections. We normally talk about it being kind of the economy as the key Conservative thing. But actually, it wasn't this time, arguably, we were telling the country that we were not prioritising the economy, we were going to do something that many people said was going to be damaging, we were going to do Brexit. And that was bad for the economy, according to every
00:24:39.780analysis so what we were talking about was the cultural stuff it was getting tough on law and
00:24:44.360order um it was you know offering that uh the ladder the opportunity to people who don't
00:24:50.440currently get it that equality conversation but in a very different way but if we don't deliver
00:24:55.260on that equally you know if we're just going to be labor light then what's the point in voting
00:24:59.200for us you might as well vote for labor so we have got a huge challenge and we need to really
00:25:03.940dig on this reform there's some big stuff we can do whether it is the equality act whether it's the
00:25:08.300Human Rights Act and dealing with some of this illegal immigration and things like that that are
00:25:12.020really winding people up in my constituency at the minute but there's opportunities to fix it
00:25:17.500big flagship changes we can make that will make a real difference it's been brave enough to do it
00:25:22.580isn't it as you say and tipping enough people over the line to get it done. And Ben what would
00:25:28.160you say to those critics particularly on the rights of the Conservative Party both culture
00:25:33.180and economically who say that the Conservative Party is many things but it is not conservative
00:25:38.240sometimes it feels like that um to be honest but i think um you know the last year has been
00:25:45.920really hard hasn't it and you can look at it and go right i i believe in small government i believe
00:25:51.640in um you know lower spending and and more independence i believe that you know ultimately
00:25:57.920um your life and your life chances are your responsibility and then government puts the
00:26:02.880framework in place but you've got to go away and do it and then the last year um all that's on its
00:26:07.400head, hasn't it? Because we've paid for everything and funded everything and taken away people's
00:26:11.260freedoms, which is not something that I would hope any Conservative politician ever came into
00:26:15.180politics or into government to do. So it is a bit mad at the minute. And a lot of those things,
00:26:21.440like I said earlier, I would never ever consider supporting in a normal time. So we've got to get
00:26:26.600back to some common sense at the end of all this. And we've got to get back to dealing with those
00:26:31.340issues in a different way. And that's an interesting argument, because there are lots of people who
00:26:34.720have pushed for you know bigger state more control more regulation and all the rest of it even in the
00:26:40.360conservative party who are very happy uh that we've got some of that so there is a battle and
00:26:44.620a conversation to be had uh even internally but um you know ultimately uh there are enough
00:26:50.880colleagues and a lot in senior positions who are pretty sound and sensible uh and certainly you
00:26:56.160know the stuff i've just been talking about the equality stuff um and lots of stuff around the
00:27:00.680Human Rights Act and whatever in the Home Office stuff that's happening it's already happening
00:27:03.840um so we're on the way we just need to get through Covid and get back to something like
00:27:08.720a normal state of what government's meant to do. You know and we talk about and Constantine
00:27:14.060uses a phrase hold the feet to the fire and isn't that worrying that that's not the Labour
00:27:20.940Party doing that that's people within your own side and your own party having to hold the
00:27:25.600Conservative Party to account. Because Labour, I mean, let's look at their last election result,
00:27:30.900have become a total irrelevance. Yeah, I mean, the challenge for them, right? So not only have
00:27:35.380they lost loads of seats, they've lost all the seats in the kind of what I would call the sensible
00:27:40.060northern working class bit. Look at him, he looks gutted about this, doesn't he? Just
00:27:43.460so upset on behalf of the Labour Party. Absolutely devastated. You know, I wish that they were
00:27:51.000much more vociferous and winning all over the place but sadly uh it's not gonna happen for a
00:27:56.060while i hope but you know but because they brought in the corbyn intake right although corbyn's not
00:28:00.820there anymore so many of their backbenches are from that kind of corbyn easter hard left um agenda
00:28:06.920so and even the ones who seem sensible right lisa and andy was coming around the country after the
00:28:10.720election saying how do we figure this out and seemed like she knew what she was doing and then
00:28:14.260she decided this week they should scrap the army and have an international peace force instead um
00:28:19.880You know, it's just just nutty. So they've got a real challenge to try and overcome it.
00:28:24.060But, you know, maybe that's for the betterment from a government perspective in that it is us, you know, on the more conservative end of the Conservative Party saying, right, come over and join us as opposed to being dragged off in the other direction.
00:28:40.720Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm someone who's always been a floating voter.
00:28:44.220I voted for different parties throughout history.
00:28:46.880And from my perspective, you know, I voted Conservative for the first time in my life at the last election.
00:35:35.740It's been much smaller than most in the media would have had you believe it would be,
00:35:40.700fortunately, but there are some sectors, you know,
00:35:42.680we've seen things particularly around Northern Ireland,
00:35:44.360particularly around the fishing industry,
00:35:45.560where we need to find solutions and we need to deal with some of the challenges.
00:35:49.880And that will happen over the coming kind of months as things come together and particularly fortunate in some ways, you know, in terms of that disruption that with business being much reduced at the minute, you know, maybe there is that period where clearly travel between the UK and the EU is nowhere near the levels it would normally be, which perhaps gives us that window to work some of this stuff out over a bit of time.
00:36:11.480We're going to have to do that, though. And, you know, rebuilding the economy relies on us rebuilding that trade relationship and getting all of that working, as well as the deals we sign in everywhere else, as well as, you know, the opportunities, as I said, like the free ports and that international trade in other places.
00:36:26.680Other things we want to do more domestically now than we've done before. We're talking about, you know, more steel production, more energy production in the UK as opposed to elsewhere.
00:36:35.020So there's loads and loads of things to deal with. We've got to find the capacity somewhere, haven't we?
00:36:39.540And Ben, I wanted to ask you this because I'm curious, you know, viruses come along every now and again. This isn't the last one that we deal with. What sort of assessment is the government either doing already or planning to do in terms of an inquiry afterwards where you actually look at whether the decisions that we've made were the right ones?
00:37:01.860you know I'd like to see some analysis you know in the cold light of day not now when it's all
00:37:08.620heated but in the cold light of day going well actually were lockdowns the right decision
00:37:13.200you know how effective have they been what should we do if another virus comes five years down the
00:37:20.460line because I think we'd all accept that this has been less than ideal to put it very mildly
00:37:26.440And I'm not sure that the sort of knee-jerk, very, very heavy reaction we've had is necessarily the one that you might have had, had you had some chance to think about this in advance. So what are you guys looking at to understand the best way to deal with things like this in the future?
00:37:44.760Sure. And there needs to be that inquiry post all of this. And particularly, actually, when we know what the economic and social impact of it is, because part of the problem so far that I've stood in the chamber and said, you know, you're asking me to do this. But what is the impact of this? You're asking me to lock things down. But what does that do in terms of the economy, in terms of mental health, in terms of people's education? I'm particularly concerned about schools and all of that.
00:38:10.880Ben, there's also simply the issue of health. I mean, this is one of the things that really does
00:38:14.740my head in about this. People don't seem to recognize that lockdowns have a health impact
00:38:19.740as well. I want to know how many people die from lockdown? Why are we never given that comparison?
00:38:26.340Because surely if you're making a decision to do a lockdown, you have to understand, of course,
00:38:30.860yes, how many lives you expected to save, but also how many people die. And who are those people?
00:38:35.680Are they young fathers of three versus an 89-year-old in a care home? Those are decisions
00:38:40.040that that you have to look at yeah and we talked about you know things like we had international
00:38:44.300men's day talking about male suicide and things like that we saw after 2008 economic crash the
00:38:47.960amount of young men out of work who who committed suicide you know so there are definitely those
00:38:52.320impacts um i guess the challenge and what government would say is just that assessing
00:38:57.460those impacts in the here and now you know trying to predict what they will be is just incredibly
00:39:01.400difficult um it's such a complex picture isn't it as to to what those impacts are even if we know
00:39:06.680what they are because there'll be hidden challenges as well and there's things like
00:39:10.060domestic violence things like child abuse while people are locked up at home um that we won't see
00:39:14.920the impacts of for some time probably so at least after all this we need to sit down and say right
00:39:20.440you know what are those figures around all of those things around mental health around domestic
00:39:24.960violence the economic challenges where does that lead us and make that comparison if we can't do
00:39:29.860it in here and now at least need to do it afterwards and assess i think we've figured
00:39:33.400some things out already you know clearly public health wasn't at all prepared um for something on
00:39:38.360this scale in the first instance spending too much time telling people what to eat probably
00:39:41.880as opposed to um being prepared for for these kind of things and they're going to have to be
00:39:46.800so there's been a lot of investment and um change there already and that will change further so
00:39:52.220there's some things we've picked up on uh from the off but definitely you know when sadly you know
00:39:57.760the the social impact of all of this won't be probably clear um for a while and some of it will
00:40:03.640go on for for decades generations probably particularly the schools and educational side
00:40:09.020of things you know um i figured that i had a look at some stats of the week there's a thousand
00:40:13.320children in in nottinghamshire uh excluding the city so it's probably more like two thousand
00:40:17.920children across the county and city of nottingham and nottinghamshire who are known to children's
00:40:22.200services so vulnerable kids who need you know intervention from local government who are not
00:40:27.400at school and we don't know what's happening to those kids we're not normally teachers would look
00:40:31.520out for them you know the impact of that on those children is is going to be massive and going to
00:40:36.240last for a long time so there's going to be a lot of work to do. I mean this is as a former teacher
00:40:43.080everyone can drink now this is the thing that I'm worried about and I think and I'm in agreement
00:40:47.700with you I think studies are going to be done in the next few years to monitor what has happened
00:40:53.520to this generation i think you're going to see increased levels of unemployment addiction etc
00:40:59.280etc as these poor kids have missed a whole year of schooling and it's not just the fact that when
00:41:05.200they go back to school they're going to be a year behind they're probably going to be two years
00:41:08.080behind because not only did they stop their education they effectively regressed as well
00:41:12.640yeah and you know whilst we already had an inequality in terms of disadvantaged kids
00:41:17.580and communities like like the one i represent you know where the attainment isn't as high
00:41:21.480um more of those kids are not home learning to the in the same way you know you've got um
00:41:27.320kids from from affluent families who or kids where parents might be furloughed at home or
00:41:33.640might be able to do more work with those kids um in many ways if you're doing one-to-one education
00:41:38.960at home you could be doing more than you did at school if you get a good quality
00:41:42.780um whereas other kids are getting nothing or parents have to work full-time from home whilst
00:41:47.160they're looking after kids and you know you can imagine quite any 14 50 year old teenagers who
00:41:51.080normally would have seven hours at school being looked after by a teacher just left with their
00:41:54.640own devices all day every day scaring the internet in their bedroom they gotta be delighted mate
00:41:59.300yeah i mean it'd be a dream for me as a 14 year old but would it um be particularly beneficial
00:42:04.760for me in the long term probably not so that gap's only going to widen and it's going to be a huge
00:42:09.120challenge to pull it back because that was one of the things we promised in 2019 that we would
00:42:12.320narrow that gap and it's only going to have got wider over the last year it's fascinating having
00:42:16.560this conversation with you because i almost feel like you're talking like a lefty from the 1980s
00:42:21.860talking about class inequality poor working class boys etc but that seems to have been the shift
00:42:27.660that has happened uh where you know when when people on the left now you know the left now
00:42:33.700talk about inequality they're talking about it from a sort of race sex sexuality type of perspective
00:42:41.620instinctively you you strike me as someone who who has a very strong aversion to all of that
00:42:49.800stuff am i right about that i'm glad you noticed yeah there's been some um some really interesting
00:42:55.240studies into it all you know that the the idea that um you know basically the class war failed
00:43:00.460and and now they've had to go and find some other other groups um on the left to choose as the next
00:43:06.740people to rise up and overthrow capitalism or whatever and we've gone with with these identity
00:43:11.020groups it's like a hierarchy of victimhood isn't it where do we sit on the on the list and how much
00:43:15.700grievance can we find i think you know there are are clearly you know racism sexism uh homophobia
00:43:22.260very real there are genuine problems um but to me just our problems of individual attitudes they're
00:43:29.260not systemic they're not um you know our structures are not designed to prevent black people from
00:43:34.660from succeeding there are other factors um underneath that right and largely it's socio-economic
00:43:39.900it's yeah um it's about uh you know where you grow up how much money you got how connected you
00:43:46.620are to those networks that can get you into uh you know jobs and education and and opportunities
00:43:51.720and that's the thing we've got to deal with that geographical and economic inequality
00:43:56.260um and the rest kind of follows i also kind of think that you know attitudes have changed
00:44:01.500an awful lot over the last 20 30 years uh in terms of um you know the the characteristics
00:44:08.400in terms of homophobia racism uh it's come on leaps and bounds it will carry on personally i
00:44:14.300don't think my generation really sees those things as issues at all um or certainly the vast majority
00:44:20.180and that will continue over time because that's what we teach our kids that's what i teach my
00:44:24.420kids that those things don't really matter um but the more we we kind of throw it out in front of
00:44:30.640everybody the more we make it front and center of the conversation the more it does matter because
00:44:33.800that's all we talk about that's all we focus on and I think it sets the whole challenge back
00:44:39.620by decades to be honest. I mean it does set the whole thing back because it doesn't matter and
00:44:45.580this is one of the things one of my bugbears with the left is it doesn't matter what people on the
00:44:50.600right do if you know you have a Sajid Javid you know everybody should be you know really really
00:44:57.020impressed by what he's accomplished regardless of his politics you know son of a bus driver from
00:45:01.500tooting rose up to become a highly successful banker then segued into politics that's a story
00:45:06.940that should be celebrated surely but because he has the wrong opinions they use a whole raft of
00:45:11.900epithets against him and in particular say he's not an authentic asian person which to me is
00:45:17.240baffling that's how you know you're progressive mate yeah that's the been i think every um you
00:45:24.520know every black or asian conservative mp would probably tell you the same i know uh good friends
00:45:29.440with Temi Badnock for example and she gets the same we had it in the chamber Labour MPs telling
00:45:33.980Priti Patel that her experience of racism wasn't genuine enough um you know it's it's mad and it is
00:45:39.960does become for them this hierarchy of you know who is the most oppressed um my own experience
00:45:46.920is that the majority of people who are supposedly in that system of oppression don't actually feel
00:45:52.060oppressed um they would much rather get you know be able to have opportunity and succeed on their
00:45:57.000own merits than because of some physical characteristic that gives them extra um extra
00:46:01.380help um we find in the conservative party all the time you talk to conservative women about
00:46:05.300the idea of all female shortlists and they're horrified largely because they don't feel like
00:46:10.560they need that actually to be able to get by they're perfectly talented and capable in their
00:46:14.340own right so um it's a very dividers converse we talked before about you know the the division in
00:46:20.720these discussions and it's another one that makes people very angry on on either end isn't it um
00:46:25.120that's probably why some of the stuff that i've said has had such a big reaction but
00:46:28.540i don't think it's healthy to just draw everything back to those characteristics
00:46:32.040um we had the international men's day debate and i talked about um i felt like everything
00:46:37.100always focused around those things so i just wanted to talk about blokes actually you know
00:46:40.720not minority groups or not whatever but just kind of everyday blokes like me and communities like
00:46:46.540mine um i got slated for it and the labor front bench speech brought it back to men who are bme
00:46:52.460and men who are LGBT and like can we not just talk about men full stop all men right and that
00:47:00.040will include those men this is the thing exactly I just find it it's so exclusionary the way that
00:47:05.960these conversations are being had and I'm glad glad you're speaking up about you mentioned you
00:47:10.100getting a lot of flack and you certainly have got a lot of flack for for taking those views do you
00:47:15.260think that that is the understanding of these issues that you've sort of described for us is
00:47:20.720is that something that people in your party broadly understand or are you sort of
00:47:24.860the naughty boy with his hand up at the back of the class at the moment um i think i certainly
00:47:29.500probably used to be but there is um there's a lot of of understanding of it a lot of people who
00:47:35.720um agree very strongly but actually a bit worried about speaking out because they see the flag that
00:47:41.780i get and they don't fancy it which i understand um a lot of those conversations have gone behind
00:47:46.160the scenes and actually more and more particularly from the 2019 intake because we've seen that
00:47:50.040geographical shift right there we've seen mps from the midlands and the north from different
00:47:55.240backgrounds representing different areas who've kind of come in and really shifted the nature of
00:47:59.260the conservative party actually i think in a really good way um which means there are a lot
00:48:03.460more of them who feel strongly about this stuff and are willing to speak out about it and there's
00:48:06.620there's different groups that pop up i have a group called the blue collar conservatives which
00:48:09.860is more about those kind of values there's one called the common sense group um which is a lot
00:48:14.680of mps who look at the kind of culture discussion done a lot of stuff around the kind of history and
00:48:19.820monuments and Churchill and whatever over the last year and and just that patriotism element that is
00:48:25.000is you know really valued I think by communities like like Mansfield and lots of others so there's
00:48:30.000a lot of it going on um some more more vocal than others uh some of us perhaps draw a bit more flack
00:48:35.600uh than others I've also felt like to be honest because of of winning a seat like Mansfield and
00:48:40.620the nature of that history and Labour still feel like it's theirs uh and that makes me a bit of a
00:48:45.480target as well, to be honest, since day one. I mean, moving on, one of the challenges the
00:48:51.320Conservative government is going to face, it's almost going to be somewhat a crisis for you,
00:48:56.940which is a civil liberties question regarding vaccinations. What legislation is going to come
00:49:03.260in? Is it going to be no vaccination, no job? Like, for instance, the chief at Pimlico Plumbers
00:49:10.940is saying with new contracts, you're not going to get offered a contract. What is the government
00:49:15.380position on things like this and travel etc etc yeah well i mean as far as i'm aware in the
00:49:21.300conversations i've had there's no no sense of doubt i certainly wouldn't support a no vaccine
00:49:25.340no job policy i think for you know we've got to win the argument we can't be a party that says
00:49:30.900um you know you can't shut down free speech you can't shut down debate and and accuse the left
00:49:35.640and then shut down things that we don't agree with if we want to convince anti-vaxxers to have
00:49:39.560a vaccine we need to convince them uh not well the thing is ben just sorry to interrupt there
00:49:43.840It's not only anti-vaxxers that you need to convince.
00:52:06.960And just moving on, just before we finish,
00:52:09.060the issue of big tech is rearing its head.
00:52:11.560We've seen the Polish government saying that they're going to find big tech
00:52:15.760if they take down content which doesn't contravene Polish law.
00:52:20.780What is the government position on big tech?
00:52:22.900Because it's going to become a bigger and bigger issue,
00:52:26.300particularly as we go through and as it becomes more prevalent in all our lives.
00:52:31.500Sure. And it's another really contentious one, isn't it? Where almost the same argument, how much do you impinge on free speech in order to keep people safe? It's really difficult. My own view is that, as you mentioned with Poland, you know, if it's not illegal, then it's not illegal. I don't think, and we've seen in the last few weeks, Priti Patel talking about rowing back on some of the kind of hate crime legislation, which I think would be a really positive thing.
00:54:50.340I think that's probably something that would be good
00:54:52.620and healthy to have that accountability.
00:54:54.500I know a lot of the abuse and some of the threats that I get come from anonymous accounts where nobody can really tell me or where I've reported things to the police and police can't trace people.
00:55:05.260So, you know, maybe that's one step we could take.
00:55:08.600Yeah, there's a few issues with that, one of them being like whistleblowers and stuff.
00:55:11.980You do want some ability for people to remain anonymous, but I take your point.
00:55:16.040Well, it doesn't have to be publicly visible, does it?
00:55:18.720I don't have to know as a member of the public looking at a Twitter account who it is, but Twitter should know.
00:55:24.500And they should be that ability for the government or the police to then go, right, I'm investigating this and you need to hand over that information to me. As opposed to, you know, it doesn't have to be visible to everybody all the time, but where things are illegal, there should be that scope.
00:55:39.340I see your point. Yeah, there's some issues with that. That could be misused. Certainly the idea of giving Twitter more information about us is difficult. But you make the point. It's a difficult thing. The one thing I wish, and we've got you on the show, so when you enter the door of number 10 as prime minister one day, maybe keep this in mind, mate.
00:56:02.440One thing I think politicians massively underestimate
00:56:04.840is how much of your power this is taking away.
00:56:07.680Because these big tech companies get to influence,