TRIGGERnometry - Ben Bradley MP： What is the Conservative Answer to the Culture War？

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00:00:30.000 hello and welcome to trigonometry i'm francis foster i'm constantin kissin and this is a show

00:00:40.260 for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people we're delighted to say that

00:00:45.560 joining us today is the member of parliament for mansfield ben bradley mp welcome to trigonometry

00:00:50.540 hi how you doing it's good to have you on the show man we're excited as we were just talking

00:00:55.940 before we started, we don't ever have serving politicians on the show. We've made one or two

00:01:00.920 exceptions in the past for people that we thought actually would speak their mind and be direct and

00:01:07.080 honest about stuff. So hopefully we can get you cancelled in the process of this interview.

00:01:11.780 Plenty of people have tried. I'm just pleased to be described as fascinating. I'm happy with that.

00:01:15.540 I can go now. Yeah. Well, listen, for anyone who doesn't know you and doesn't know who you are and

00:01:20.760 what your background is. You became the first Conservative MP for Mansfield since 1885,

00:01:27.540 right? You are quite a lot younger than both Francis and I. So you're quite remarkable in

00:01:32.600 a few different ways. You've done all sorts of jobs in your past. Just tell everybody a little

00:01:36.840 bit about who are you? How are you where you are? What is the journey that brings you to where you

00:01:42.380 are now, which is sitting here talking to us? Yeah, sure. It was almost an accident, to be

00:01:46.940 honest um we as you say you know mansell's never had a conservative mp um he's liberal and and

00:01:53.900 before labor in the early 1920s so it's a bit of a shift politically it was a proper kind of

00:02:00.060 hardcore labor coalfield uh territory um and and personally you know i always wanted to be a pe

00:02:05.960 teacher actually i went to uni to be a pe teacher and um in the end kind of changed my mind and

00:02:10.560 dropped out and worked as a landscape gardener i worked at aldi and frankie and bennies and

00:02:14.880 to other places and decided in the end to go back and do something that wouldn't

00:02:19.180 railroad me down a particular route um something kind of broad at uni and pick politics which

00:02:24.700 um very effectively railroaded me down a particular route and then actually fell out

00:02:29.220 with my council about the bins it got me really grumpy so you do look like the kind of guy who's

00:02:36.580 there on a tuesday morning take my bins absolutely that's that was me at the age of like 21 um and

00:02:43.820 ended up doing this petition around getting all the little old ladies on my estate riled up about 1.00

00:02:47.840 the bins and decided to stand for council and never looked back really just um kind of fell

00:02:52.480 in love with it i mean what what a story ben it's all started with the bins i mean that's what people

00:02:58.060 get passionate about when people talk about local council and local politics it's inevitably the

00:03:03.040 bins but you're in the conservative party now the conservative party had this massive win at the

00:03:09.460 general election um and you saw seats like yours turn away from labour why do you think that is

00:03:15.460 it's been going on for a long time um the shift since if you look at since 1997 mansfield was an

00:03:21.720 18 000 labour majority then it came down to 11 8 6 5 and and went conservative in 2017

00:03:27.260 um and then this time you know i had a thousand majority then it's 16 and a half now so it's a

00:03:32.680 big old shift um and it's been happening as i say since since then so um if you look at

00:03:39.580 not just corbyn not just brexit those things kind of accelerated it but actually it's the

00:03:44.020 the cultural shift you know for all the history of labor voting very unionized industries really

00:03:48.900 everybody voted labor um they've always been kind of small c conservative when it comes to culture

00:03:54.120 and values um you know and having broken that that labor connection you know seen jeremy corbyn

00:04:00.740 and what he was about and didn't fancy it,

00:04:02.640 there's maybe more of a willingness to look elsewhere

00:04:04.920 and kind of figure out what those values are.

00:04:08.060 And really, you know, the stuff that we talked about in 2019 in particular,

00:04:11.400 you know, tough on law and order, a bit more kind of patriotic,

00:04:15.880 a bit more, you know, levelling up and supporting those poor communities

00:04:20.620 was right up their street.

00:04:23.200 Do you think that you and others in the Red Wall seats,

00:04:27.260 in the Red Wall areas,

00:04:28.040 Do you think that you have shattered that tribal allegiance that people in those areas used to have for Labour where, you know, my dad voted Labour, my granddad voted Labour, that sort of thing?

00:04:39.520 Do you think that's a permanent rupture or do you think you've got this tiny window?

00:04:44.540 And as Boris Johnson said, you have to now prove to people that the vote that they lent you was worth lending to you.

00:04:52.520 I think the latter certainly broken the allegiance right because I mean you heard I heard in 2017

00:04:58.180 even more so in 19 you know my granddad would turn in his grave if if he knew I was going to vote

00:05:02.580 Tory but they did and kind of you know sucked it up and closed their eyes and marked the cross kind 1.00

00:05:08.540 of thing and we do have to show it there's no sense to me at the minute that Keir Starmer or

00:05:14.000 Labour have won anybody back over from that perspective but obviously you know Covid's

00:05:18.320 really challenging for for many reasons people are pretty depressed largely um so so no huge

00:05:24.340 swell of support for the government either and we do need to show over the next three years that

00:05:27.700 we're going to do something worthwhile with this parliament and make it worth it particularly that

00:05:31.820 investment in those communities and and wanting to see something that that tangibly makes things

00:05:35.860 better where they live um so there's a big challenge and you know if we prove the point

00:05:40.140 then they'll stick with us uh if not it will be a matter of time before you know labor figure out

00:05:45.440 what they're doing and offer them an alternative don't you think we're in this quite weird time

00:05:49.940 ben where conservatives represent the working class better than labor and then let labor have

00:05:55.800 become the party of the middle class liberal elite it's a big shift isn't it and breaks all

00:06:01.060 the stereotypes i think um you know the they've always been that kind of um academic uh islington

00:06:07.440 socialists in the labor party and it's always been a bit of a uh an uncomfortable mishmash

00:06:11.720 certainly for the last 20 odd years between them and and you know the working class um kind of core

00:06:16.820 vote but actually we saw all the way through uh through brexit and and more recently some of the

00:06:21.860 cultural discussion about that that disconnect between the two and they they just they cannot

00:06:25.580 rub together in those big um kind of statement conversations things like brexit where actually

00:06:31.800 it's it's those idlington academics who um not only don't agree with the the kind of working

00:06:36.780 class uh leave voters but actually can't stand them um and that's the real problem uh when it

00:06:42.380 comes to trying to tie together that political coalition right so um every party has those

00:06:47.220 divides is a kind of liberal or a more kind of right-wing divide in the conservative party as

00:06:51.940 well um but at the minute we're certainly speaking more for those communities i think and and

00:06:57.740 brexit's a indicative of that isn't it well we weren't going to spend too much on brexit but i

00:07:03.080 you bring it up. And one of the interesting things is all three of us in this conversation

00:07:06.780 voted Remain. Because we're good people. That's the running gag on the show. We're

00:07:12.540 very moral people for voting. But equally, all three of us, I think, have a tremendous amount

00:07:18.020 of respect for democracy and for the people who voted differently to us. What was that like for

00:07:23.760 you representing a constituency that voted differently to you in the referendum?

00:07:28.360 to be honest it's been fine i i voted remain on the basis that i think like a lot of my generation

00:07:35.580 i'd never given the eu a second thought to be honest um i wasn't born when we went in it's just

00:07:41.820 what i've always had um and hadn't particularly to be honest as i said before i fell out about

00:07:47.600 the bins and went back to uni and what have you i'd never really thought about politics i wasn't

00:07:50.620 interested um so it was an odd one i kind of just went along with what was easiest if i'm being

00:07:57.260 totally honest i've got no um no no quarrel with or i didn't have a quarrel with european union i

00:08:04.240 think uh it seemed like there were problems i don't want to be part of a federal europe but

00:08:08.540 actually was it in the too difficult box was it really worth it and and it wasn't something that

00:08:12.660 was important to me so i just kind of stuck with it but i understood the arguments i always have

00:08:16.600 and and um since we actually voted to leave i think they've come out even more clearly so

00:08:21.920 it has not been that difficult to fall out with the eu since then has it and some of the things

00:08:25.620 that they've done and the way that they've approached this negotiation.

00:08:28.580 So as we've gone on, you know, I've kind of just embraced it.

00:08:31.400 And I think most constituents who pay attention to what I do

00:08:34.420 and say have recognised that.

00:08:35.720 So we've not really had a problem at all.

00:08:38.160 I mean, I was firmly in the camp that I thought to remain

00:08:42.480 within the EU was a good thing.

00:08:44.560 We voted to leave.

00:08:45.520 The vote should be respected.

00:08:46.880 I thought it was the wrong decision at the time.

00:08:49.080 And for many years after that, one thing that really changed my mind

00:08:52.780 was the behaviour of the EU over the past couple of weeks

00:08:55.920 with regards to the vaccines.

00:08:57.680 What is your opinion on it?

00:09:00.080 Yeah, sure.

00:09:00.740 I think things like that just prove the point, don't they?

00:09:04.140 And we saw it throughout the negotiations

00:09:06.120 where there was a point at the end of last year

00:09:09.580 where they were going absolutely mad about us saying,

00:09:11.820 well, if this doesn't work,

00:09:12.660 we might have to break international law

00:09:14.020 in order to make the Northern Ireland situation work.

00:09:16.820 And they went crazy,

00:09:18.260 but they're not quite happy to break international law

00:09:20.760 when it comes to you know the Germans um bidding for for vaccines behind the EU's back when they've 0.89

00:09:25.780 signed up to treat it it's when it suits them isn't it and um I think that's one of the things

00:09:29.620 that uh really wound a lot of league voters up previously it's I'd never really thought about it

00:09:34.900 but actually we've seen since 2016 2017 a lot of examples like that and um I think we're in the best

00:09:41.700 possible position now to be able to do something positive a colleague actually described it to me

00:09:45.360 in a really helpful way um that I use all the time now and he just said look if you're you're

00:09:50.400 sat in the back of a car as a passenger and you're heading in a direction that you know you don't want

00:09:54.220 to go, which is federal Europe, you know, handing over those powers to a big federal system, then

00:10:00.060 there's only so long you can tell them to slow down or tell them to turn around before you've

00:10:03.780 got to get out of the car and go your own way, you know. So from that perspective, Brexit was

00:10:09.260 always inevitable. It was just a case of when, which I think is quite a neat way of explaining

00:10:13.420 actually yeah it is uh irrespective of the the underlying issue with the eu and so on

00:10:21.140 i think it would be difficult to argue that brexit has not been a hugely divisive issue

00:10:26.100 that has really polarized the country that split really yeah typical i'm trying to do the british

00:10:33.220 understatement i'm not very good at it but it's really really hurt a lot of relationships

00:10:38.920 your families you know we have this fever pitch conversation in our media now that you know

00:10:45.320 there's a lot of animosity that has been generated how do you think we we start to bring people back

00:10:52.980 together because that's a real worry to me that everything now is a 11 out of 10 in terms of

00:10:58.840 anger and outrage and all of that and you know brexit was clearly a big part of that yeah it's

00:11:03.340 really challenging isn't it and it seems the first example of that kind of divided um discussion but

00:11:09.460 there are lots now it seems like everything almost falls into that category i think covid

00:11:13.060 does to some extent you know and i think the media and social media has a lot to answer for

00:11:17.420 because it always ignores the gray doesn't it it makes better headlines to have the extreme

00:11:22.640 versions and pretend that there's nothing in the middle when actually most people are in the middle

00:11:26.240 um i think brexit's like that uh you know i i think most people remain or leave were able to

00:11:32.100 see the other argument and able to although they disagree actually kind of understand what the

00:11:36.340 conversation was about but it's not those people that end up as the talking heads on the political

00:11:40.580 shows is it and making the headlines and you know covid's kind of the same you know whether you're

00:11:46.660 lockdown skeptic or whether you're um you know wanting to keep us locked down forever that's

00:11:51.200 always the way it's portrayed isn't it you either want to kill everybody's granny or you want to

00:11:55.140 lock everybody in their homes for for the next whatever and there's nothing in between when

00:11:58.740 actually we're all in between so i do think there's a huge um media problem there but i do

00:12:04.000 think people are getting more and more wise to it um the challenge i suppose is that when it is such

00:12:08.380 a polarizing angry debate those people who are in the middle the people who have the relatively

00:12:12.900 mainstream kind of view just stay out of it don't they you don't want to get involved you don't want

00:12:16.880 to um cause an argument because it's not worth it we're very british in from that perspective

00:12:21.280 we'll just you know you have an argument and i'll back off um which which leaves just the very loud

00:12:27.600 angry voices out there doesn't it amplified by things like twitter and all of that so

00:12:31.740 leaves me and francis out there which is great for us but ben i mean it's a very good point you

00:12:37.680 know we do see tend to see the angriest people amplified on social media etc etc and it seems

00:12:43.960 like the most important issues aren't the ones that get discussed about because it just turns

00:12:49.720 into a shouting match into a slanging match one of the things that i'm very worried about and

00:12:54.500 part of the reason that I'm glad we have a conservative government is the economy and

00:12:59.680 what state the economy is going to be after we've moved past this because you know for for us it's

00:13:06.880 been a good thing and because we've been able to grow we've got a captive audience all the rest of

00:13:11.520 it but for the vast majority of people this has been a complete and unmitigated disaster

00:13:16.580 i'm glad you're doing well um silver lining um yeah no it's massive isn't it and

00:13:24.380 unfortunately with with you know vaccinations being where they are and with um the level of

00:13:30.380 kind of business support you would hope we would be in a better position than most to be able to

00:13:34.680 pick up again when things open up and we've done more than most countries to protect business and

00:13:39.400 employment and and all of that so all being well um you know we're in a position to be able to pick

00:13:45.480 that back up but we're going to have to deal with huge unemployment uh we're going to have to deal

00:13:48.620 with um lots of not even just people being out of work but those businesses and those jobs not

00:13:53.620 existing and we're gonna have to create them somewhere else um so there's lots of strands

00:13:58.540 to that right the the skills stuff that was announced a couple weeks ago i think it's really

00:14:01.420 important further education and and shifting people across into the sectors that are growing

00:14:05.260 because like you guys said you know you guys have done well other sectors have done well um you

00:14:09.660 know particularly the kind of logistics and and all that kind of stuff uh you know big amazon

00:14:13.560 warehouse open near us which has helped us to kind of soften the blow a little bit because there was

00:14:18.600 an extra thousand odd jobs there just as they were disappearing in other places so it's a long-term

00:14:23.780 game though um that's the challenge and and you know what i the worst thing would be to think you

00:14:29.140 know we've got to be thinking 10 years ahead here where do we want to get to to get to three years

00:14:33.240 time and end up letting bloody labour take over and and do it all up up the wrong way so it has

00:14:40.280 to be a long-term plan and i hope you know we can convince people to stick with that plan but equally

00:14:44.760 the debt the spending is so big that you can't expect to just whack up a bit of tax here or to

00:14:51.020 cut a few things there and fix it it's a long-term um approach to dealing with all that as well

00:14:55.780 well i was going to make that point you mentioned that britain has done more than other countries to

00:15:00.620 protect people and businesses from the economic impact of what's happening and i think you know

00:15:05.760 a fair observer would say that's accurate. Equal question that a fair observer might ask is,

00:15:11.680 can we actually afford the things that we've done and the things we're yet to do? Because

00:15:15.920 as you say, the debt and the deficit, which runs up the debt are so massive now. We have spent so

00:15:23.020 much money and we have paid, you know, a good chunk of the country not to work for the best

00:15:27.940 part of a year at the time we're recording this. Can we afford and how long can we afford to keep

00:15:32.720 this up because it's incredibly expensive isn't it yeah we can't afford it and if we were just

00:15:37.260 doing what we could afford we would have stopped a long time ago um but i don't know what else you

00:15:41.880 do um that's the thing and i think for a lot of conservatives in particular who are you know like

00:15:46.860 me uh traditionally you know small state personal responsibility you know all of this stuff is so

00:15:51.860 far out of my comfort zone that it's not even worth you know discussing it's just in normal

00:15:57.400 times i would never ever support measures like the kinds of things that we're doing at the minute

00:16:01.500 um but uh as i say it's it's either that or let things go to the wall isn't it so we kind of are

00:16:07.400 where we are we're gonna have to deal with it and i think the battle now for for people like me is

00:16:11.780 to say right how do we get back to um a sensible position in terms of um people's independence and

00:16:18.080 personal responsibility and what the state should be doing and then kind of remove all of that um

00:16:23.060 kind of creep that there's been over the last year um without kind of damaging people uh because

00:16:29.620 that's you know almost a slow and steady process as well i guess if you can't just take away a load

00:16:33.780 of things uh all in one go um and to try and convince the treasury um again that you know

00:16:40.720 actually we're talking politically earlier on if we're going to win the next election if we're

00:16:44.360 going to convince these these former labor voters to stick with us we've still got to invest we've

00:16:48.320 still got to build that infrastructure we've still got to make those places better than they were at

00:16:52.160 the start of all this so you can't afford to just pull the plug on that either um it's going to have

00:16:56.180 to be one of those as i say very long-term games in terms of managing that debt because there's

00:17:01.200 nothing you can do to flick a switch and just pay it all off it's not going to happen broadway's

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00:17:33.100 and i mean what one of the challenges that the conservative government is going to face and it's

00:17:40.640 a very very tough one is you know cities like london it will bounce back it always does it's

00:17:46.800 you know it's an economic hub but places like mansfield or places in the northeast who have

00:17:51.720 who have suffered this hit it is going to take far more for them to regenerate yeah sure and

00:17:57.440 there's a report out uh last week i think about coalfields in particular that said they reckon

00:18:02.040 they've knocked a decade of progress off of coalfield communities in terms of um things like

00:18:07.140 employment um and people's kind of increasing wages and standard living so huge challenge

00:18:12.660 there's opportunities as well though right because um for all the the negative stuff there's been

00:18:18.840 some change in that people are working from home lots of businesses have discovered they can work

00:18:22.780 from home lots of businesses will have discovered they don't actually need to be based in london

00:18:25.860 they don't actually need to be based in the city center um they might not need as big a premises

00:18:30.660 and there'll be lots of changes in how how businesses work so actually if that's the case

00:18:36.000 you don't need to be in nottingham anymore why not get a cheaper premises in a place like mansfield

00:18:40.380 why not employ people uh outside of the city if we can get those transport links and that kind of

00:18:45.620 investment um you know it makes potentially some of those towns on the outskirts of some of these

00:18:51.140 cities a more attractive place to to start a business and to employ people um and then we've

00:18:55.980 got opportunities on a national level like um in the east midlands we've got proposals around like

00:19:00.540 freeport some of the stuff we can do post brexit that is is uh has a huge amount of potential so

00:19:05.560 there's stuff there we've just got to tie it together and and you know put that infrastructure

00:19:10.100 in place that means you can go and start a business in a a mansfield or a barnsley or a

00:19:14.660 stop port, right, rather than having to go into the big cities

00:19:17.080 and do everything from there.

00:19:19.660 It doesn't happen overnight, but we're talking a good game,

00:19:22.480 at least at the minute.

00:19:23.220 We've just got to get out of the other side of the drama.

00:19:27.400 Have you ever been abroad and felt out of place

00:19:29.860 because you didn't speak the language?

00:19:31.460 No, because I voted Brexit.

00:19:33.680 Brexit means Brexit. 0.78

00:19:35.220 I know that sometimes you're abroad,

00:19:36.860 you don't speak the local language.

00:19:38.040 It's very awkward, like France is talking to a woman. 1.00

00:19:40.780 So you have to shout, do you want to learn another language?

00:19:43.800 I don't.

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00:20:42.580 talking a good game, I want to move on to some of the cultural stuff that we talk about on the

00:20:47.580 show quite a bit. And I think you've really made a bit of a name for yourself by being

00:20:52.480 problematic, problematic is what your critics might say, or brave is what your supporters

00:20:59.000 might say. But you've spoken up about, you know, men's issues, you've talked about all sorts of

00:21:04.560 cultural things. And, you know, talking a good game, I think a lot of people felt particularly

00:21:11.520 at the last election that the Conservative Party, even one that they didn't necessarily feel super

00:21:17.820 enthusiastic about, was their last chance to hold this cultural shift that we are seeing, what people

00:21:26.300 refer to as the culture war. And that while the Conservative Party may not offer a perfect

00:21:32.040 solution, they were the only opportunity to hold that advance. Obviously, COVID comes,

00:21:38.040 it gets in the way of a lot of that stuff. And I think there has been some frustration

00:21:42.840 with the conservative government that they're not doing enough on the sort of critical race

00:21:47.900 theory and all of that sort of stuff. How do you feel about how your party is doing on that front?

00:21:54.820 I think you're right about people seeing it as the last chance of seeing what's happened already

00:21:58.760 just in the first couple of weeks of a Biden administration in the States and really going

00:22:02.640 to town on all this stuff and embedding that identity politics. I think it's awful.

00:22:08.040 um some of that to be honest i guess in terms of performance um there's an element of just

00:22:14.280 you know how many hours are there in a day right with with brexit and and uh covid but now we can

00:22:20.740 hopefully certainly move on from the brexit stuff as as things come together and you know towards

00:22:25.580 the end of this year be free of of covid stuff and actually have that capacity but in the meantime

00:22:30.600 there's been been things going on i mean you guys will no doubt have seen um some of what liz trust

00:22:35.840 and kemi badenock have been doing in the equality office um kemi gave an amazing speech on um yes

00:22:41.100 very impressive um and liz looking at changing uh moving away from that equality act um focus on

00:22:49.500 identity politics on physical characteristics and instead what are the the real inequalities

00:22:53.940 that drive people's life chances socioeconomic status geographical inequality and things that

00:22:58.780 get ignored by the act um i give a uh i held a debate in westminster hall last year about

00:23:04.160 how i think the equality act actually disadvantages certain um really disadvantaged groups or

00:23:10.360 discriminates against them you know on the basis that if if i'm a really rich well-connected

00:23:15.640 black lad from hampshire i can get more support based on the acts than a a poor working white 1.00

00:23:20.680 class uh poor white working class lad in mansfield um despite the fact that i know that that white

00:23:25.240 working class lad has the worst life chances of any group in the country so it doesn't make sense

00:23:29.540 And finally, we're getting that, I think, and starting to look at what are the individual issues that hold me back as a person, as opposed to what category I'm in, what box can I be put in? And I think that's a really important step, actually. It's early days. But Liz certainly seems committed to making some big changes there.

00:23:48.780 Is that something that's well understood within your party? Because I can tell you with a tremendous amount of certainty that there's a lot of people, particularly in areas like yours, who really passionately care about this stuff. And if the Conservative government doesn't deliver on it, they're going to be upset about it. And, you know, everybody, including us, is going to hold your feet to the fire on this one.

00:24:09.800 Yeah, sure. And it's really important. I keep making the point to anybody who'll listen in number 10 about, you know, we talked about 2019 election. It wasn't won on the basis that the Conservatives normally win elections. We normally talk about it being kind of the economy as the key Conservative thing. But actually, it wasn't this time, arguably, we were telling the country that we were not prioritising the economy, we were going to do something that many people said was going to be damaging, we were going to do Brexit. And that was bad for the economy, according to every

00:24:39.780 analysis so what we were talking about was the cultural stuff it was getting tough on law and

00:24:44.360 order um it was you know offering that uh the ladder the opportunity to people who don't

00:24:50.440 currently get it that equality conversation but in a very different way but if we don't deliver

00:24:55.260 on that equally you know if we're just going to be labor light then what's the point in voting

00:24:59.200 for us you might as well vote for labor so we have got a huge challenge and we need to really

00:25:03.940 dig on this reform there's some big stuff we can do whether it is the equality act whether it's the

00:25:08.300 Human Rights Act and dealing with some of this illegal immigration and things like that that are

00:25:12.020 really winding people up in my constituency at the minute but there's opportunities to fix it

00:25:17.500 big flagship changes we can make that will make a real difference it's been brave enough to do it

00:25:22.580 isn't it as you say and tipping enough people over the line to get it done. And Ben what would

00:25:28.160 you say to those critics particularly on the rights of the Conservative Party both culture

00:25:33.180 and economically who say that the Conservative Party is many things but it is not conservative

00:25:38.240 sometimes it feels like that um to be honest but i think um you know the last year has been

00:25:45.920 really hard hasn't it and you can look at it and go right i i believe in small government i believe

00:25:51.640 in um you know lower spending and and more independence i believe that you know ultimately

00:25:57.920 um your life and your life chances are your responsibility and then government puts the

00:26:02.880 framework in place but you've got to go away and do it and then the last year um all that's on its

00:26:07.400 head, hasn't it? Because we've paid for everything and funded everything and taken away people's

00:26:11.260 freedoms, which is not something that I would hope any Conservative politician ever came into

00:26:15.180 politics or into government to do. So it is a bit mad at the minute. And a lot of those things,

00:26:21.440 like I said earlier, I would never ever consider supporting in a normal time. So we've got to get

00:26:26.600 back to some common sense at the end of all this. And we've got to get back to dealing with those

00:26:31.340 issues in a different way. And that's an interesting argument, because there are lots of people who

00:26:34.720 have pushed for you know bigger state more control more regulation and all the rest of it even in the

00:26:40.360 conservative party who are very happy uh that we've got some of that so there is a battle and

00:26:44.620 a conversation to be had uh even internally but um you know ultimately uh there are enough

00:26:50.880 colleagues and a lot in senior positions who are pretty sound and sensible uh and certainly you

00:26:56.160 know the stuff i've just been talking about the equality stuff um and lots of stuff around the

00:27:00.680 Human Rights Act and whatever in the Home Office stuff that's happening it's already happening

00:27:03.840 um so we're on the way we just need to get through Covid and get back to something like

00:27:08.720 a normal state of what government's meant to do. You know and we talk about and Constantine

00:27:14.060 uses a phrase hold the feet to the fire and isn't that worrying that that's not the Labour

00:27:20.940 Party doing that that's people within your own side and your own party having to hold the

00:27:25.600 Conservative Party to account. Because Labour, I mean, let's look at their last election result,

00:27:30.900 have become a total irrelevance. Yeah, I mean, the challenge for them, right? So not only have

00:27:35.380 they lost loads of seats, they've lost all the seats in the kind of what I would call the sensible

00:27:40.060 northern working class bit. Look at him, he looks gutted about this, doesn't he? Just

00:27:43.460 so upset on behalf of the Labour Party. Absolutely devastated. You know, I wish that they were

00:27:51.000 much more vociferous and winning all over the place but sadly uh it's not gonna happen for a

00:27:56.060 while i hope but you know but because they brought in the corbyn intake right although corbyn's not

00:28:00.820 there anymore so many of their backbenches are from that kind of corbyn easter hard left um agenda

00:28:06.920 so and even the ones who seem sensible right lisa and andy was coming around the country after the

00:28:10.720 election saying how do we figure this out and seemed like she knew what she was doing and then 0.97

00:28:14.260 she decided this week they should scrap the army and have an international peace force instead um

00:28:19.880 You know, it's just just nutty. So they've got a real challenge to try and overcome it.

00:28:24.060 But, you know, maybe that's for the betterment from a government perspective in that it is us, you know, on the more conservative end of the Conservative Party saying, right, come over and join us as opposed to being dragged off in the other direction.

00:28:40.720 Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm someone who's always been a floating voter.

00:28:44.220 I voted for different parties throughout history.

00:28:46.880 And from my perspective, you know, I voted Conservative for the first time in my life at the last election.

00:28:53.780 I want a strong Labour Party.

00:28:55.760 I want a Labour Party to be holding you guys to account.

00:29:00.320 You know, obviously, there's certain things on which I don't agree with the Labour Party.

00:29:03.540 But there's a lot of things that they're not doing.

00:29:05.960 And it is frustrating to see just how disorganized and disheveled they look at the moment.

00:29:13.180 Because we do need a strong, robust debate on many issues, don't we?

00:29:18.600 Sure, absolutely. It's healthy for democracy and for the country, isn't it?

00:29:21.580 And, you know, we went to too much opposition in 2017 to 2019 and it brought everything to a standstill.

00:29:28.160 But actually, you know, there is definitely a place for proper scrutiny.

00:29:31.840 Right. And that's what as MPs we're supposed to be about, particularly opposition MPs.

00:29:37.320 So there does need to be more. And when you've got, you know, social media companies making videos about

00:29:42.460 what a waste of space Keir Starmer is.

00:29:44.080 I saw a Jungle Book one this morning

00:29:45.380 that I particularly enjoyed.

00:29:47.480 You know, it's not good.

00:29:49.020 And a lot of people have been saying,

00:29:50.700 as I said, you know,

00:29:51.500 that there are celebrities

00:29:52.540 doing more to hold the government to account

00:29:54.680 than the Labour Party.

00:29:56.180 I think Captain Hindsight's a good nickname

00:29:59.080 because it's just a case of going,

00:30:00.180 if I'd have been there at the time,

00:30:01.240 I'd have done it differently.

00:30:02.000 Well, wouldn't we all?

00:30:04.020 They've got a lot of their own internal problems

00:30:06.540 to deal with, I think,

00:30:07.220 before they can really get to dealing with government.

00:30:10.700 But don't you think that represents

00:30:11.820 a fundamental crisis in democracy, Ben?

00:30:14.040 Like, joking aside,

00:30:15.100 because if no one's going to hold you to account,

00:30:17.560 then what state are we going to be in

00:30:20.700 as a democracy, really?

00:30:22.360 There's a big challenge at the minute anyway

00:30:23.860 through the COVID stuff

00:30:24.680 with all the emergency powers

00:30:25.900 and everything else that,

00:30:27.600 you know, the role of parliament

00:30:29.100 is diminished at the minute

00:30:30.460 because we have given them

00:30:32.420 those emergency powers

00:30:33.360 to implement things

00:30:35.460 and come back and ask us afterwards

00:30:36.980 in hindsight and say,

00:30:38.160 you know, would you have done this?

00:30:39.280 And even if we say no,

00:30:40.180 it's only a motion.

00:30:41.460 it's not a binding vote anyway um so that scrutiny is is very much diminished and as a

00:30:46.680 backbench mp i want to be able to go to parliament and raise the things i want to talk about as well

00:30:49.920 as just what government wants to talk about westminster hall is gone you know those opportunities

00:30:54.100 have disappeared as well so it's not a healthy situation at the minute if i'm being honest we

00:30:58.420 need to get back to a point post all this health situation allows where you know there is more

00:31:03.580 opportunity to raise other things there is more opportunity to to ask questions of government to

00:31:08.540 scrutinise you know debates at the minute aren't debates they're just a series of speeches where

00:31:12.740 you can't um because it's all virtual so you can't intervene on a minister you can't stick

00:31:16.840 your hand up and say actually you said this and i'm not sure about that um which is where most of

00:31:21.160 that work kind of gets done in terms of scrutiny so there is a void there um and it can't carry on

00:31:25.980 that way and it sounds like you're concerned you know obviously i i take it that you you support

00:31:32.120 the measures in the moment because of the extreme circumstances but it sounds like you're quite

00:31:36.640 concerned about some of the methods that are being used uh be becoming the norm let's say where

00:31:43.120 the government can just do stuff without going to parliament yeah sure you know everybody including

00:31:49.380 the government accepts that it's not um in terms of process down there it's far from ideal at the

00:31:54.260 minute um they might you know be less worried about that perhaps because it makes life easier

00:31:59.040 from from their point of view but um we certainly need to get back to a position where we debate and

00:32:05.520 decide things before they happen as opposed to afterwards uh at the very least you know and and

00:32:10.860 as i say as a backbencher it can be difficult sometimes when you're you've got certain things

00:32:14.780 you want to raise local priorities and that normally there are a whole range of uh ways of

00:32:19.560 doing that at the minute a lot of those don't exist because we can't physically be there we

00:32:23.940 can't have meetings in the tea room with ministers we can't have um westminster hall debates we can't

00:32:29.700 um pop up in the chamber and ask questions ad hoc it all has to be very planned and rigid

00:32:33.600 so it's not great

00:32:35.620 but

00:32:36.060 you know

00:32:37.000 it's temporary

00:32:38.020 and by the time

00:32:39.620 we get to this

00:32:40.020 somewhere I'd imagine

00:32:40.640 it'll be back to normal

00:32:41.280 And you say

00:32:43.180 back to normal

00:32:43.900 I mean this is

00:32:45.120 a particularly nasty

00:32:46.020 question but do you

00:32:46.880 think we're going to

00:32:47.340 be faced with another

00:32:48.200 austerity programme

00:32:49.180 in order to pay for

00:32:50.120 all this?

00:32:50.880 I hope not

00:32:51.660 rumours go around

00:32:53.320 all over the place

00:32:53.780 don't they at the

00:32:54.200 minute

00:32:54.340 I mean the irony is

00:32:55.320 that we're probably

00:32:57.100 going to end up

00:32:57.820 looking at what I

00:32:58.760 guess was the

00:32:59.240 Ed Miliband playbook

00:33:00.200 prior to 2015

00:33:01.820 in terms of

00:33:02.740 like spending your way out of out of crisis i think um i don't think that either the conservative

00:33:10.080 party or the country to be honest would um accept or would be happy with a an austerity round too

00:33:16.120 um but we're in a different position right we're not in a position where um the whole thing

00:33:21.680 collapsed as it did in 2008 and and we weren't in a position to deal with it we'd spent all the money

00:33:25.760 and and we were kind of scrambling for what to do it's much more methodical we're in a better

00:33:31.000 economic position beforehand a lot of the the impact as i say because we've had such a big

00:33:36.220 range of business support and whatever we'll be able to bounce back a lot quicker i hope than we

00:33:40.880 did after 2008 um but it will be you know it'll be a long-term challenge a difficult thing to to do

00:33:46.800 i guess whilst hold on but you say we're in a better financial position but we are in more

00:33:53.100 debt than we've ever been oh right now yeah i mean mid-covid and all the rest of it sure um

00:33:57.920 you know we've spent a lot of money and we're going to have to to sort that out but i think

00:34:01.980 you know the the investment in terms of job creation in terms of the infrastructure to

00:34:07.340 support that job creation and you know improve skills and opportunity is the way that we have

00:34:12.660 to get out of it and rather than think of this as right we've got five years or ten years to pay

00:34:16.980 off the debt which is what they kind of thought in 2008 um didn't work did it so we're going to

00:34:22.020 have to think about um something different and it needs to be a longer term plan which is going to

00:34:26.020 have to be you know yes we're going to have to reduce spending significantly from where we are

00:34:29.980 now let's let's you know not be blase about that we're spending hundreds of billions of pounds on

00:34:35.140 propping up things that government should never be propping up um you know so there is going to

00:34:39.380 have to be a lot of kind of rowing back on a lot of the covid uh things are back to a level of more

00:34:43.680 normal spending um but we've got to invest whether it's politically to to get those red wall seats

00:34:49.000 over the line next time or whether it's for the economy and to create jobs and to shift people

00:34:53.060 across sectors into new industries, it is all going to take a bit of spending too.

00:34:58.180 So no, is the short answer from that big ramble.

00:35:01.280 No, I don't see austerity more up to.

00:35:03.960 Because, I mean, you've got significant challenges when we come out of this.

00:35:07.500 Not only do you have to grow the economy once again,

00:35:09.780 but you've also got to go back with the EU, get everything running smoothly again,

00:35:16.880 because obviously there's been disruption because of Brexit.

00:35:19.220 There's stories coming out of the ports, you know,

00:35:20.900 that people are waiting for many, many hours, if not days,

00:35:23.620 to transport goods, et cetera, et cetera.

00:35:26.000 I mean, these are significant challenges

00:35:27.880 that the Conservative government are going to face, aren't they?

00:35:30.720 Yeah, I mean, we all knew post-31st of December

00:35:33.680 that there would be some disruption.

00:35:35.740 It's been much smaller than most in the media would have had you believe it would be,

00:35:40.700 fortunately, but there are some sectors, you know,

00:35:42.680 we've seen things particularly around Northern Ireland,

00:35:44.360 particularly around the fishing industry,

00:35:45.560 where we need to find solutions and we need to deal with some of the challenges.

00:35:49.880 And that will happen over the coming kind of months as things come together and particularly fortunate in some ways, you know, in terms of that disruption that with business being much reduced at the minute, you know, maybe there is that period where clearly travel between the UK and the EU is nowhere near the levels it would normally be, which perhaps gives us that window to work some of this stuff out over a bit of time.

00:36:11.480 We're going to have to do that, though. And, you know, rebuilding the economy relies on us rebuilding that trade relationship and getting all of that working, as well as the deals we sign in everywhere else, as well as, you know, the opportunities, as I said, like the free ports and that international trade in other places.

00:36:26.680 Other things we want to do more domestically now than we've done before. We're talking about, you know, more steel production, more energy production in the UK as opposed to elsewhere.

00:36:35.020 So there's loads and loads of things to deal with. We've got to find the capacity somewhere, haven't we?

00:36:39.540 And Ben, I wanted to ask you this because I'm curious, you know, viruses come along every now and again. This isn't the last one that we deal with. What sort of assessment is the government either doing already or planning to do in terms of an inquiry afterwards where you actually look at whether the decisions that we've made were the right ones?

00:37:01.860 you know I'd like to see some analysis you know in the cold light of day not now when it's all

00:37:08.620 heated but in the cold light of day going well actually were lockdowns the right decision

00:37:13.200 you know how effective have they been what should we do if another virus comes five years down the

00:37:20.460 line because I think we'd all accept that this has been less than ideal to put it very mildly

00:37:26.440 And I'm not sure that the sort of knee-jerk, very, very heavy reaction we've had is necessarily the one that you might have had, had you had some chance to think about this in advance. So what are you guys looking at to understand the best way to deal with things like this in the future?

00:37:44.760 Sure. And there needs to be that inquiry post all of this. And particularly, actually, when we know what the economic and social impact of it is, because part of the problem so far that I've stood in the chamber and said, you know, you're asking me to do this. But what is the impact of this? You're asking me to lock things down. But what does that do in terms of the economy, in terms of mental health, in terms of people's education? I'm particularly concerned about schools and all of that.

00:38:10.880 Ben, there's also simply the issue of health. I mean, this is one of the things that really does

00:38:14.740 my head in about this. People don't seem to recognize that lockdowns have a health impact

00:38:19.740 as well. I want to know how many people die from lockdown? Why are we never given that comparison?

00:38:26.340 Because surely if you're making a decision to do a lockdown, you have to understand, of course,

00:38:30.860 yes, how many lives you expected to save, but also how many people die. And who are those people?

00:38:35.680 Are they young fathers of three versus an 89-year-old in a care home? Those are decisions

00:38:40.040 that that you have to look at yeah and we talked about you know things like we had international

00:38:44.300 men's day talking about male suicide and things like that we saw after 2008 economic crash the

00:38:47.960 amount of young men out of work who who committed suicide you know so there are definitely those

00:38:52.320 impacts um i guess the challenge and what government would say is just that assessing

00:38:57.460 those impacts in the here and now you know trying to predict what they will be is just incredibly

00:39:01.400 difficult um it's such a complex picture isn't it as to to what those impacts are even if we know

00:39:06.680 what they are because there'll be hidden challenges as well and there's things like

00:39:10.060 domestic violence things like child abuse while people are locked up at home um that we won't see

00:39:14.920 the impacts of for some time probably so at least after all this we need to sit down and say right

00:39:20.440 you know what are those figures around all of those things around mental health around domestic

00:39:24.960 violence the economic challenges where does that lead us and make that comparison if we can't do

00:39:29.860 it in here and now at least need to do it afterwards and assess i think we've figured

00:39:33.400 some things out already you know clearly public health wasn't at all prepared um for something on

00:39:38.360 this scale in the first instance spending too much time telling people what to eat probably

00:39:41.880 as opposed to um being prepared for for these kind of things and they're going to have to be

00:39:46.800 so there's been a lot of investment and um change there already and that will change further so

00:39:52.220 there's some things we've picked up on uh from the off but definitely you know when sadly you know

00:39:57.760 the the social impact of all of this won't be probably clear um for a while and some of it will

00:40:03.640 go on for for decades generations probably particularly the schools and educational side

00:40:09.020 of things you know um i figured that i had a look at some stats of the week there's a thousand

00:40:13.320 children in in nottinghamshire uh excluding the city so it's probably more like two thousand

00:40:17.920 children across the county and city of nottingham and nottinghamshire who are known to children's

00:40:22.200 services so vulnerable kids who need you know intervention from local government who are not

00:40:27.400 at school and we don't know what's happening to those kids we're not normally teachers would look

00:40:31.520 out for them you know the impact of that on those children is is going to be massive and going to

00:40:36.240 last for a long time so there's going to be a lot of work to do. I mean this is as a former teacher

00:40:43.080 everyone can drink now this is the thing that I'm worried about and I think and I'm in agreement

00:40:47.700 with you I think studies are going to be done in the next few years to monitor what has happened

00:40:53.520 to this generation i think you're going to see increased levels of unemployment addiction etc

00:40:59.280 etc as these poor kids have missed a whole year of schooling and it's not just the fact that when

00:41:05.200 they go back to school they're going to be a year behind they're probably going to be two years

00:41:08.080 behind because not only did they stop their education they effectively regressed as well

00:41:12.640 yeah and you know whilst we already had an inequality in terms of disadvantaged kids

00:41:17.580 and communities like like the one i represent you know where the attainment isn't as high

00:41:21.480 um more of those kids are not home learning to the in the same way you know you've got um

00:41:27.320 kids from from affluent families who or kids where parents might be furloughed at home or

00:41:33.640 might be able to do more work with those kids um in many ways if you're doing one-to-one education

00:41:38.960 at home you could be doing more than you did at school if you get a good quality

00:41:42.780 um whereas other kids are getting nothing or parents have to work full-time from home whilst

00:41:47.160 they're looking after kids and you know you can imagine quite any 14 50 year old teenagers who

00:41:51.080 normally would have seven hours at school being looked after by a teacher just left with their

00:41:54.640 own devices all day every day scaring the internet in their bedroom they gotta be delighted mate

00:41:59.300 yeah i mean it'd be a dream for me as a 14 year old but would it um be particularly beneficial

00:42:04.760 for me in the long term probably not so that gap's only going to widen and it's going to be a huge

00:42:09.120 challenge to pull it back because that was one of the things we promised in 2019 that we would

00:42:12.320 narrow that gap and it's only going to have got wider over the last year it's fascinating having

00:42:16.560 this conversation with you because i almost feel like you're talking like a lefty from the 1980s

00:42:21.860 talking about class inequality poor working class boys etc but that seems to have been the shift

00:42:27.660 that has happened uh where you know when when people on the left now you know the left now

00:42:33.700 talk about inequality they're talking about it from a sort of race sex sexuality type of perspective

00:42:41.620 instinctively you you strike me as someone who who has a very strong aversion to all of that

00:42:49.800 stuff am i right about that i'm glad you noticed yeah there's been some um some really interesting

00:42:55.240 studies into it all you know that the the idea that um you know basically the class war failed

00:43:00.460 and and now they've had to go and find some other other groups um on the left to choose as the next

00:43:06.740 people to rise up and overthrow capitalism or whatever and we've gone with with these identity

00:43:11.020 groups it's like a hierarchy of victimhood isn't it where do we sit on the on the list and how much

00:43:15.700 grievance can we find i think you know there are are clearly you know racism sexism uh homophobia

00:43:22.260 very real there are genuine problems um but to me just our problems of individual attitudes they're

00:43:29.260 not systemic they're not um you know our structures are not designed to prevent black people from

00:43:34.660 from succeeding there are other factors um underneath that right and largely it's socio-economic

00:43:39.900 it's yeah um it's about uh you know where you grow up how much money you got how connected you

00:43:46.620 are to those networks that can get you into uh you know jobs and education and and opportunities

00:43:51.720 and that's the thing we've got to deal with that geographical and economic inequality

00:43:56.260 um and the rest kind of follows i also kind of think that you know attitudes have changed

00:44:01.500 an awful lot over the last 20 30 years uh in terms of um you know the the characteristics

00:44:08.400 in terms of homophobia racism uh it's come on leaps and bounds it will carry on personally i

00:44:14.300 don't think my generation really sees those things as issues at all um or certainly the vast majority

00:44:20.180 and that will continue over time because that's what we teach our kids that's what i teach my

00:44:24.420 kids that those things don't really matter um but the more we we kind of throw it out in front of

00:44:30.640 everybody the more we make it front and center of the conversation the more it does matter because

00:44:33.800 that's all we talk about that's all we focus on and I think it sets the whole challenge back

00:44:39.620 by decades to be honest. I mean it does set the whole thing back because it doesn't matter and

00:44:45.580 this is one of the things one of my bugbears with the left is it doesn't matter what people on the

00:44:50.600 right do if you know you have a Sajid Javid you know everybody should be you know really really

00:44:57.020 impressed by what he's accomplished regardless of his politics you know son of a bus driver from

00:45:01.500 tooting rose up to become a highly successful banker then segued into politics that's a story

00:45:06.940 that should be celebrated surely but because he has the wrong opinions they use a whole raft of

00:45:11.900 epithets against him and in particular say he's not an authentic asian person which to me is

00:45:17.240 baffling that's how you know you're progressive mate yeah that's the been i think every um you

00:45:24.520 know every black or asian conservative mp would probably tell you the same i know uh good friends

00:45:29.440 with Temi Badnock for example and she gets the same we had it in the chamber Labour MPs telling

00:45:33.980 Priti Patel that her experience of racism wasn't genuine enough um you know it's it's mad and it is

00:45:39.960 does become for them this hierarchy of you know who is the most oppressed um my own experience

00:45:46.920 is that the majority of people who are supposedly in that system of oppression don't actually feel

00:45:52.060 oppressed um they would much rather get you know be able to have opportunity and succeed on their

00:45:57.000 own merits than because of some physical characteristic that gives them extra um extra

00:46:01.380 help um we find in the conservative party all the time you talk to conservative women about 1.00

00:46:05.300 the idea of all female shortlists and they're horrified largely because they don't feel like 1.00

00:46:10.560 they need that actually to be able to get by they're perfectly talented and capable in their

00:46:14.340 own right so um it's a very dividers converse we talked before about you know the the division in

00:46:20.720 these discussions and it's another one that makes people very angry on on either end isn't it um

00:46:25.120 that's probably why some of the stuff that i've said has had such a big reaction but

00:46:28.540 i don't think it's healthy to just draw everything back to those characteristics

00:46:32.040 um we had the international men's day debate and i talked about um i felt like everything

00:46:37.100 always focused around those things so i just wanted to talk about blokes actually you know

00:46:40.720 not minority groups or not whatever but just kind of everyday blokes like me and communities like

00:46:46.540 mine um i got slated for it and the labor front bench speech brought it back to men who are bme

00:46:52.460 and men who are LGBT and like can we not just talk about men full stop all men right and that

00:47:00.040 will include those men this is the thing exactly I just find it it's so exclusionary the way that

00:47:05.960 these conversations are being had and I'm glad glad you're speaking up about you mentioned you

00:47:10.100 getting a lot of flack and you certainly have got a lot of flack for for taking those views do you

00:47:15.260 think that that is the understanding of these issues that you've sort of described for us is

00:47:20.720 is that something that people in your party broadly understand or are you sort of

00:47:24.860 the naughty boy with his hand up at the back of the class at the moment um i think i certainly

00:47:29.500 probably used to be but there is um there's a lot of of understanding of it a lot of people who

00:47:35.720 um agree very strongly but actually a bit worried about speaking out because they see the flag that

00:47:41.780 i get and they don't fancy it which i understand um a lot of those conversations have gone behind

00:47:46.160 the scenes and actually more and more particularly from the 2019 intake because we've seen that

00:47:50.040 geographical shift right there we've seen mps from the midlands and the north from different

00:47:55.240 backgrounds representing different areas who've kind of come in and really shifted the nature of

00:47:59.260 the conservative party actually i think in a really good way um which means there are a lot

00:48:03.460 more of them who feel strongly about this stuff and are willing to speak out about it and there's

00:48:06.620 there's different groups that pop up i have a group called the blue collar conservatives which

00:48:09.860 is more about those kind of values there's one called the common sense group um which is a lot

00:48:14.680 of mps who look at the kind of culture discussion done a lot of stuff around the kind of history and

00:48:19.820 monuments and Churchill and whatever over the last year and and just that patriotism element that is

00:48:25.000 is you know really valued I think by communities like like Mansfield and lots of others so there's

00:48:30.000 a lot of it going on um some more more vocal than others uh some of us perhaps draw a bit more flack

00:48:35.600 uh than others I've also felt like to be honest because of of winning a seat like Mansfield and

00:48:40.620 the nature of that history and Labour still feel like it's theirs uh and that makes me a bit of a

00:48:45.480 target as well, to be honest, since day one. I mean, moving on, one of the challenges the

00:48:51.320 Conservative government is going to face, it's almost going to be somewhat a crisis for you,

00:48:56.940 which is a civil liberties question regarding vaccinations. What legislation is going to come

00:49:03.260 in? Is it going to be no vaccination, no job? Like, for instance, the chief at Pimlico Plumbers

00:49:10.940 is saying with new contracts, you're not going to get offered a contract. What is the government

00:49:15.380 position on things like this and travel etc etc yeah well i mean as far as i'm aware in the

00:49:21.300 conversations i've had there's no no sense of doubt i certainly wouldn't support a no vaccine

00:49:25.340 no job policy i think for you know we've got to win the argument we can't be a party that says

00:49:30.900 um you know you can't shut down free speech you can't shut down debate and and accuse the left

00:49:35.640 and then shut down things that we don't agree with if we want to convince anti-vaxxers to have

00:49:39.560 a vaccine we need to convince them uh not well the thing is ben just sorry to interrupt there

00:49:43.840 It's not only anti-vaxxers that you need to convince.

00:49:46.720 Actually, as you were saying earlier,

00:49:48.480 there's a lot of people who are not on either extreme.

00:49:50.780 There's a lot of people who are not anti-vaxxers,

00:49:53.460 but they're not necessarily convinced

00:49:55.380 that a vaccine that's been rapidly produced,

00:49:59.460 not had any long-term testing,

00:50:01.420 we don't know necessarily what the long-term impacts are.

00:50:04.140 They just sort of have a healthy curiosity about that issue.

00:50:07.820 It's not only anti-vaxxers that you need to convince.

00:50:09.920 I agree.

00:50:10.380 And, you know, I talk to people,

00:50:11.880 particularly younger people, I think,

00:50:12.820 who are saying, you know what,

00:50:13.620 my chances of dying of this are like next to nothing so why why would i take a any kind of

00:50:18.680 risk on a vaccine you know a couple of my um female friends in their late 20s early 30s have 1.00

00:50:24.480 said you know what if it impacts my fertility in a decade's time you know things like that that we

00:50:28.700 maybe don't know um i can't pretend i know enough about the science to to say but um we do have to

00:50:33.960 win that argument right if we want to to have the vaccination as widespread as it needs to be

00:50:38.380 that is something that the scientists and the government need to explain and put across and

00:50:42.140 make sure that it happens there's no sense to me of um either by legal force or by coercion

00:50:48.040 being able to to say you must have it or else i don't morally that that doesn't sit well with me

00:50:53.600 regardless of anything else you know i don't think the government should be able to force people to

00:50:57.680 inject chemical in their body if they don't want to um just not something i would ever ever support

00:51:03.120 but i don't know um on the other end you know you talk about pimico uh plumbers i don't know what

00:51:08.860 the stance is in terms of if businesses want to do that um i don't know what the position is and

00:51:15.140 we've seen we'll see others and areas that we can't control so like if you want to fly to

00:51:19.720 australia and quantus want you to have had the vaccine then there'll be nothing we can do about

00:51:23.120 that um because it's not a uk company and it's it's up to australia who they let in

00:51:27.620 and so i have no doubt there will be examples of that um around the world but it's not something

00:51:33.360 than I fancy in the UK.

00:51:35.180 Broadway's smash hit,

00:51:36.620 the Neil Diamond musical,

00:51:38.020 A Beautiful Noise,

00:51:39.440 is coming to Toronto.

00:51:40.880 The true story of a kid from Brooklyn

00:51:42.720 destined for something more,

00:51:44.400 featuring all the songs you love,

00:51:46.140 including America,

00:51:47.440 Forever in Blue Jeans,

00:51:48.600 and Sweet Caroline.

00:51:50.140 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful,

00:51:51.960 the next musical mega hit is here,

00:51:54.220 the Neil Diamond musical,

00:51:55.800 A Beautiful Noise.

00:51:56.880 April 28th through June 7th, 2026,

00:52:00.060 the Princess of Wales Theatre.

00:52:01.500 No, absolutely not.

00:52:06.960 And just moving on, just before we finish,

00:52:09.060 the issue of big tech is rearing its head.

00:52:11.560 We've seen the Polish government saying that they're going to find big tech

00:52:15.760 if they take down content which doesn't contravene Polish law.

00:52:20.780 What is the government position on big tech?

00:52:22.900 Because it's going to become a bigger and bigger issue,

00:52:26.300 particularly as we go through and as it becomes more prevalent in all our lives.

00:52:31.500 Sure. And it's another really contentious one, isn't it? Where almost the same argument, how much do you impinge on free speech in order to keep people safe? It's really difficult. My own view is that, as you mentioned with Poland, you know, if it's not illegal, then it's not illegal. I don't think, and we've seen in the last few weeks, Priti Patel talking about rowing back on some of the kind of hate crime legislation, which I think would be a really positive thing.

00:52:57.200 Well, that needs to happen.

00:52:59.040 Yeah, that needs to happen.

00:53:00.440 It does.

00:53:00.860 you know the idea that you can go to jail for being mean and saying some mean words to somebody

00:53:05.380 i think is is absolute nonsense so we need to to sort that out and hopefully that helps to deal

00:53:10.440 with some of the online conversation as well because in the same way you know at the minute

00:53:13.800 um there are people who have been investigated by the police for saying you know women are women

00:53:20.120 and men are men there's absolute madness um so we need to clear up what is legal and illegal

00:53:25.960 offline so that we can clear out what's legal and illegal online i know there's a lot of concern

00:53:30.900 um about a kind of overreach on the online harm stuff and um and that limiting free speech but

00:53:36.820 to be honest i'd like to see it go the other way i think the idea that we should give all this power

00:53:40.840 to mark zuckerberg and um you know twitter and people to decide what is and isn't acceptable

00:53:45.860 uh in our online speech is just a bad way to go and what would you say to those people go look

00:53:52.280 ben these are lovely words that you're saying and you know the government try and do stuff

00:53:55.840 But even the UK government is powerless against the might of big tech.

00:53:59.720 We've got billions and billions of dollars behind them.

00:54:04.200 You know, there is certainly a lot of power that's wielded there, right?

00:54:08.840 And if we're all on these platforms and if we all, you know,

00:54:11.820 give them all of our information, right,

00:54:13.560 the amount of people who come to me and say,

00:54:15.920 I'm not going to fill in this form,

00:54:17.240 I'm not going to give you my email address

00:54:19.000 because I don't want you to have it and use it,

00:54:22.180 but I'm quite happy to be on every social media platform going

00:54:24.500 with Facebook knowing when they're going to the shops

00:54:27.080 and how long they go to the toilet each day.

00:54:30.420 You know, I think people don't realise

00:54:32.340 how much data they give away

00:54:34.080 and how much power that gives to some of these companies.

00:54:36.760 Maybe there's more we need to do there to open that up.

00:54:38.840 I certainly think one good thing we could do

00:54:40.340 is make sure and, you know,

00:54:43.840 go work with these companies to make sure

00:54:45.720 that actually you can't set up anonymous accounts

00:54:47.680 without any way of tracing people.

00:54:50.340 I think that's probably something that would be good

00:54:52.620 and healthy to have that accountability.

00:54:54.500 I know a lot of the abuse and some of the threats that I get come from anonymous accounts where nobody can really tell me or where I've reported things to the police and police can't trace people.

00:55:05.260 So, you know, maybe that's one step we could take.

00:55:08.600 Yeah, there's a few issues with that, one of them being like whistleblowers and stuff.

00:55:11.980 You do want some ability for people to remain anonymous, but I take your point.

00:55:16.040 Well, it doesn't have to be publicly visible, does it?

00:55:18.720 I don't have to know as a member of the public looking at a Twitter account who it is, but Twitter should know.

00:55:24.500 And they should be that ability for the government or the police to then go, right, I'm investigating this and you need to hand over that information to me. As opposed to, you know, it doesn't have to be visible to everybody all the time, but where things are illegal, there should be that scope.

00:55:39.340 I see your point. Yeah, there's some issues with that. That could be misused. Certainly the idea of giving Twitter more information about us is difficult. But you make the point. It's a difficult thing. The one thing I wish, and we've got you on the show, so when you enter the door of number 10 as prime minister one day, maybe keep this in mind, mate.

00:56:02.440 One thing I think politicians massively underestimate

00:56:04.840 is how much of your power this is taking away.

00:56:07.680 Because these big tech companies get to influence,

00:56:11.320 you know, elections at some point.

00:56:13.360 They get to influence everything that happens,

00:56:15.040 what people think, what people get to say,

00:56:16.980 who gets to be on it.

00:56:18.340 And I think that will eventually come to dilute

00:56:21.280 a lot of the power that you have from the people.

00:56:24.860 And it messes with the whole idea of democracy.

00:56:27.180 And I hope that more people in politics

00:56:29.460 become aware of that.

00:56:30.460 I think that's absolutely right and you know we've had the big discussion about the state

00:56:33.820 and that election and the impact of media and big tech on on that you know I don't condone

00:56:40.260 anything Donald Trump's done I think he's gone nuts to be honest but the idea that Twitter can

00:56:44.740 silence the president of the United States is is not a healthy position regardless of who that

00:56:49.780 president is um so there is a lot of work that needs to be done it's incredibly complex isn't

00:56:54.760 it because there is nothing that just is is the right answer everything is a trade-off

00:56:58.160 and it's a moral judgment there for us

00:57:01.020 to where you want to draw that line

00:57:02.520 but there certainly needs to be a real scrutiny

00:57:05.040 and a real good look at that

00:57:05.980 and it's probably top of the agenda

00:57:07.920 from all sorts of points of view, isn't it?

00:57:12.740 Whether it's free speech or dealing with crime

00:57:14.900 or just the online harms bill

00:57:18.160 that's already being drafted as we speak

00:57:19.660 so it's going to be a conversation we have this year

00:57:21.160 I have no doubt.

00:57:23.380 Fantastic.

00:57:24.080 Well Ben, thank you so much for coming on the show

00:57:26.180 it's been an absolute pleasure

00:57:27.780 the question that we always ask at the end is always the same which is what's the one thing

00:57:32.880 we're not talking about as a society but we really should be i think it's the thing that actually

00:57:38.580 we've been talking about but very few others are and it is that um that equality conversation you

00:57:43.500 know i think you do get get shut down a lot when you raise this and and people are really

00:57:48.100 uncomfortable talking about um different routes around that you know i think that we need to do

00:57:54.100 it very differently and i think an awful lot of people agree with me um but it doesn't get

00:57:58.600 discussed enough i keep talking about you know white working class lads in communities like mine

00:58:02.940 who don't get the same opportunity who are bottom of all the lists um and we have ignored that

00:58:07.200 conversation for a long time because it's not very politically correct and i don't think we can i

00:58:11.180 think it's it's increasingly important so if there was one thing i would whack on the top of the

00:58:15.920 agenda it would be that the one thing i would certainly hope and i think i speak for everyone 0.98

00:58:20.860 probably in this conversation is world peace world peace no no fuck that uh no the one thing 0.97

00:58:26.860 i would hope for is that we stop having this conversation in racial terms i just don't think 0.98

00:58:33.000 that's helpful i don't think it's helpful to talk about black kids and i don't think it's helpful 1.00

00:58:37.660 to talk about white working class boys even in in the slight way that you've done that i think we

00:58:42.760 need to talk about people who are genuinely disadvantaged whatever their race whatever

00:58:46.700 I say well I absolutely agree and I found it the most frustrating thing in the world

00:58:51.360 that having got into parliament I'm talking about disadvantaged kids I'm talking about

00:58:55.120 disadvantaged communities working class communities how do we improve on this nobody 1.00

00:58:59.440 paid the blindest bit of attention until I started saying white working class boys

00:59:03.340 and all of a sudden it got loads of coverage we got debates in the house and it got picked up

00:59:08.480 and that's the frustrating position we find ourselves in right it's like I mentioned with

00:59:11.880 international men's day unless you say um lgbt or bme or whatever then then people aren't bothered

00:59:19.200 and it feels like that a little bit and that's a really unhealthy situation because we do need to

00:59:23.900 be exactly what you said where actually race sexuality gender is is not even relevant to

00:59:28.560 the conversation it's just how do we help people who need help and that's where we need to get to

00:59:33.360 so that's the where we need to start with with what things to raise and conversations have

00:59:38.200 well said all the best of luck to you uh we will be watching and as i say uh you know a lot of our

00:59:45.000 a lot of our fans are like us sort of floating voters and we will be looking to see which way

00:59:50.080 uh the government takes these things over the next couple of years uh ben thanks for coming

00:59:54.460 on the show it's been a pleasure chatting with you i do good to see you and thank you all for

00:59:58.600 watching we will see you very soon with another episode like this one or a live stream at 7 p.m

01:00:04.060 UK time, every episode, every live stream. Take care and see you soon, guys.

TRIGGERnometry - February 10, 2021

Ben Bradley MP： What is the Conservative Answer to the Culture War？

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