TRIGGERnometry - Ben Cobley on Identity Politics, Positive Discrimination and the Left

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantin Kissing. And this is a

00:00:10.120 show for you if you're bored of people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing

00:00:14.900 about. At Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts, we ask the experts. Our terrific

00:00:21.160 guest this week is a writer and the author of The Tribe, Ben Cobley. Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:26.280 Thank you very much.

00:00:27.480 It's so great to have you here.

00:00:28.920 Before we get into the interview and we talk about the book itself and some of your thoughts,

00:00:32.800 tell us a little bit about how you are where you are and how you've come to be sitting in this chair.

00:00:37.920 Well, yes, it's been quite a long and strange journey in a way.

00:00:43.020 I mean, maybe roughly about 10 years ago, I sort of stepped out to an extent of, you know, a normal sort of career.

00:00:51.220 Well, I was a business to business journalist.

00:00:53.520 and you know I wanted to I just had a niche that I wanted to scratch really and I ended up kind of

00:00:59.560 going part-time in the work and then exploring my own interests so you know reading a lot

00:01:06.160 including reading a lot of philosophy literature other stuff and around about the same time I also

00:01:13.200 thought I mean I'd spent all my years basically since university sitting in pubs moaning about

00:01:21.000 politics and knowing better and actually not really doing anything so i've never done that

00:01:26.260 yeah so so around that time i thought like why not get in and get your hands dirty so i mean i've

00:01:33.040 always been on the left uh since since university well before that since school days so i joined the

00:01:39.820 labour party locally and got myself involved um so like i say this was maybe about 10 years ago

00:01:45.760 so through doing that I mean immediately sort of joining and getting involved both locally and

00:01:54.500 on a more sort of national level you know just writing blogs and sort of getting involved in

00:01:59.640 that kind of that thought world I started well I saw very quickly how identity politics was just

00:02:07.620 was so strong not just in the Labour Party but in the wider left-wing movement so I started to

00:02:15.480 explore that and and started to write my own blogs around about you know 2011 for labour blogs like

00:02:22.920 i say um and and for quite a long time sort of was exploring that through my writing while

00:02:29.500 also reading a lot of philosophy uh and other stuff so starting to work that into my own you

00:02:37.540 know into my own writing and thoughts uh as time went on uh and you know being in labor and being

00:02:45.940 in that wider left sort of world you know my my critique of identity politics how you know how i

00:02:52.580 could see that it was so powerful um but there were you know aspects which i not just disagreed

00:02:57.660 with i thought were dangerous and bad so you know i could see myself starting to pull away

00:03:04.040 while, you know, I'd been quite involved at the beginning

00:03:06.340 and had really quite enjoyed it too.

00:03:09.460 So you're a passionate labour activist at this point, right?

00:03:13.140 Well, I mean, passionate is maybe a bit far.

00:03:16.000 A dedicated labour person.

00:03:17.900 Yeah, I was involved and I thought, you know,

00:03:20.340 and getting involved in a local party was a really good thing to do.

00:03:23.720 You know, I'd moved to a new area,

00:03:25.920 so it was a great way to get to know that new area

00:03:28.020 and get to know new people who, you know, had similar sort of interests.

00:03:31.220 um but yeah this sort of stuff was what really interested me you know the you know diversity

00:03:36.780 element identity politics and what was the response to some of your writing in those days

00:03:40.660 it's kind of 2011 2012 you're talking about identity politics within your world that you

00:03:46.080 were in at the time how did people i think people tended to stay away from it ignore it there was

00:03:54.080 there was some very strong aggressive response you know especially from some feminists at that time

00:04:00.780 i mean i remember i had a one person sort of on twitter threatened to throw a knife in my face

00:04:07.740 because i questioned the idea of the patriarchy

00:04:10.840 yeah and it's you know it's it's funny and it's kind of ridiculous it was also a bit

00:04:18.120 genuinely scary um and uh and it's kind of an element of the you know how powerful it was

00:04:26.620 you know that if you if you questioned it in an in quite an honest way you know people would

00:04:32.160 really come after you and um i was i was attacked by you know verbally uh by politicians hey words

00:04:39.440 of violence we know that exactly um you know and you take it but you still you still do you know

00:04:46.520 it kind of takes you aback and especially i think more in the power aspect of like you know if you

00:04:53.000 say something out of turn you know people do genuinely come after you and you know that's

00:04:57.600 politics and you accept it but it's like if you do it this if you do this they come after you

00:05:03.540 um so um i mean eventually i mean it came to corbyn getting elected and i mean i knew

00:05:11.720 you know quite a lot about his past you know his links with islamists um and other you know stuff

00:05:19.560 that I disagree with, you know, the anti-Semitism is kind of related to that. So I was unhappy about

00:05:25.980 that. So I was kind of edging away from Labour, you know, on the edge of leaving. And then the

00:05:31.040 Brexit thing happened. And I decided for Brexit, you know, I was quite narrowly for Brexit at the

00:05:37.900 beginning. But again, with that, the response that you got personally, but also as a kind of

00:05:45.280 group of Brexit supporters even on the left was you know really strong and I mean seeing Alan

00:05:52.420 Johnson the you know the ex-MP who's leading the Labour against Brexit campaign you know when he

00:05:58.880 came out and said that Brexiteers were extremists it was kind of like this was the last straw you

00:06:03.920 know as well as being called a racist and anti-immigrant and ignorant and all the rest of

00:06:09.020 it. So at that stage, I left Labour. But with the book, I'd started writing the book, I

00:06:17.400 think in round about February 2015. So I'd already been working on it for quite a while

00:06:23.600 at that time. So I mean, that's, I guess my background is as much as I can think of it

00:06:31.360 now.

00:06:31.600 So you've left Labour, where are you mentally, politically now? Is there a home for someone

00:06:37.000 like you who maybe has a kind of old-school leftist view of certain things but doesn't

00:06:42.140 buy into the diversity and identity politics side of things?

00:06:46.180 Well, there hasn't been, but I think it's quite interesting. There are things going

00:06:52.120 on, mostly underneath the surface at the moment in politics. So I mean, even when I was in

00:07:00.380 labour most of the time i i really felt i didn't really belong there um but i i kept on because

00:07:06.800 of the local links because you know you've got friends and you know you value those relationships

00:07:10.880 uh but but um i mean now organizationally there isn't that much but there are a few things popping

00:07:19.200 up and you know i think with the with the brexit thing it has brought people together and there are

00:07:25.860 organizations forming and you know existing ones which are kind of building up a bit more

00:07:31.660 so i think it's a very interesting time ben you were mentioning about corbyn now i get a lot of

00:07:38.800 people talking about corbyn and there's the links of anti-semitism and i personally find it quite

00:07:45.320 confusing because people allude to him being an anti-semite is he an anti-semite and in your view

00:07:50.760 And actually, what evidence is there for this?

00:07:53.180 Because it's quite a serious allegation, not that you have,

00:07:56.280 but a lot of people label him with it.

00:07:58.380 Do you think he is and what evidence is there for him being anti-Semitic, as it were?

00:08:04.560 I would be very careful about calling him personally an anti-Semite.

00:08:09.620 It's more the people he's associated with and events he's gone to

00:08:16.420 where, you know, very overtly anti-Semitic stuff has been said.

00:08:20.900 And yet these are people he continues to associate with

00:08:24.380 and events he's continued to go to.

00:08:29.500 So, I mean, it's almost a guilt by association thing we're finding.

00:08:35.380 And I mean, mixed into it as well, of course, is that this is politics

00:08:39.300 and people who are opposed to Corbyn can leap onto the anti-Semitism accusation.

00:08:45.600 and beat him with it but there's there is no smoke without fire there is you know there is a genuine

00:08:51.320 association there with a lot of anti-semitic people well in particular was there anybody

00:08:57.040 that you could actually pin something on go look there was this instance or is it this group or

00:09:01.860 anything well like i say i'd i'd you know i'd be cautious about about doing that um and i mean

00:09:11.700 with with the book and my own research is it isn't something i got really deep into yeah um

00:09:17.460 it's more like i say the the associations um um you know i talked about i'm glad you've taken

00:09:25.480 that approach actually because i'm someone who's from a jewish background and i what i start to

00:09:29.660 never stops banging on about it yeah not anymore but the thing is like i i'll i'll joke about

00:09:35.260 jeremy corbyn and anti-semitism on stage because i think it's a stereotype that's out there that's

00:09:41.040 funny but i would never allege that he's anti-semitic because i've never met him i don't

00:09:45.620 know if he's anti-semitic and what i resent most of all is jews now being encouraged to play the

00:09:50.980 stupid identity politics game from our end as well you know it's like oh well there's guilt

00:09:56.240 by association maybe he went to this event it's like well maybe he did maybe he didn't you know

00:10:00.340 we don't know and until there's hardcore evidence i think it's much better to take your approach

00:10:05.020 which is to go we're going to be very careful about this and we're not going to make yes i think i

00:10:09.920 I mean, I think it's coming back some of the, sorry, I haven't thought about a lot of stuff in depth for a while,

00:10:17.180 but it is coming back some of the aspects, you know, which you can actually pin on him.

00:10:22.080 And the classic one for me that really turned my head was when I saw the video of him, you know,

00:10:29.920 very overtly calling Hamas and Hezbollah our friends, you know, our friends, at an event, I think, in Westminster.

00:10:38.120 and he's invited these people to Westminster for events.

00:10:43.400 Now, Hamas, in its founding documents,

00:10:46.480 has overtly anti-Semitic statements.

00:10:49.480 It talks about chasing Jews and killing them.

00:10:53.940 And for me, to embrace Hamas on that aspect

00:10:58.880 and say they are your friends,

00:11:00.880 I mean, obviously it's an indirect association,

00:11:04.580 but it's a strong one, I think.

00:11:06.200 I hear what you're saying,

00:11:07.380 but what i mean is like if i think i don't like jeremy corbyn's politics on many things but if i

00:11:12.180 look at him do i think this is a hateful person that hates jews which is what antisemitism i don't

00:11:19.040 think so or at least i don't know right so i think all sides need to be really careful about

00:11:25.260 it's very easy like when this story happened with me before christmas so many people were like look

00:11:31.640 talk go on tv and talk about how you're jewish and how you're oppressed i'm like no we don't

00:11:36.480 We're not going to play the radical, loony left identity politics game from our end because it's stupid.

00:11:43.200 We're saying the game is broken.

00:11:44.640 Let's stop playing that game.

00:11:45.880 Do you know what I mean?

00:11:46.700 So I think the stuff about Jeremy Corbyn's being anti-Semitic, it's funny to joke about as a comedian.

00:11:51.900 But I really don't think we should focus on it quite as much as we have been, Francis.

00:11:56.420 Anyway, let's talk about your book because this is what this is really about.

00:12:00.360 The subtitle of the book is The Liberal Left and the System of Diversity.

00:12:03.300 and in the in the preface to the book you talk very carefully about how you you're you you say

00:12:11.340 you're being critical of some of these things but actually as both francis and i read the book

00:12:15.580 i think certainly my impression was that you're not being critical you're describing

00:12:19.620 it as it is and unfortunately some of the things that you're describing

00:12:24.880 are the way they are is so broken that it seems like you're being critical when you're actually

00:12:31.520 describing so talk to us about when you talk about the system of diversity what do you really mean by

00:12:36.920 that well i mean in terms of it of diversity being a system um i mean i it's a form of politics

00:12:45.920 um you can say there's an ideology of diversity out there but in terms of a system i'm talking

00:12:53.100 about that there are relations there you know which kind of work in a systemic aspect you know

00:12:59.380 So if I say something on social media, for example, I accuse someone famous of being racist or something, it's like there's a ready audience for that sort of statement.

00:13:14.300 So I can make a call out there and I'll get a favourable response and it's likely to gain quite a favourable hearing in the newspapers, especially the more well-known I am.

00:13:29.380 You know, I'm likely to gain publicity and sympathy by saying that, whether it's true or not.

00:13:36.200 Now, so in terms of it being a system, it's like we can see possibilities there for acting in certain ways, which will, you know, benefit us in different ways.

00:13:51.400 There's also the aspect, of course, of institutionalising diversity, which, you know, through rules and laws.

00:13:59.380 so I mean we've been seeing that a lot over you know past few years with the spread of positive

00:14:07.060 discrimination although it's now redefined as positive action oh is it okay okay I think just

00:14:12.780 let's update our vocabulary mate partly to stop calling it discrimination because it reveals what

00:14:18.400 it actually is discrimination is a bad thing yeah you know in in the language yeah um so the more

00:14:24.320 it's kind of institutionalised, the more sort of favour you have towards certain identity

00:14:29.520 groups and others, again, that creates more possibilities, you know, for getting jobs

00:14:36.560 or if you oppose this sort of thing, for losing your job. Or if you have the wrong identity

00:14:44.220 and you promote that identity, for example, you know, myself, yourselves as well as white

00:14:50.000 males if we promoted ourselves as white males that wouldn't go down well in a lot of our

00:14:55.720 institutions yeah that's why i talk about jewish or being jewish all the time that's why i talk

00:14:59.320 about being half latin america yeah but actually it's funny because i always talk about this like

00:15:05.120 in russia someone who looks like me would be considered black i had people when i was living

00:15:10.340 in russia tell me go home you're black so it the identity thing is like i i've had it on both ends

00:15:17.720 i've been the white man the straight white man in this country and i've also been the oppressed

00:15:21.880 minority and uh that's why i i feel really strongly about this stuff is because these are all just

00:15:27.680 labels really that's what they are you know what i mean like looking at someone and judging them by

00:15:32.280 what you think they are is is very superficial way of living life i think it is on one level

00:15:39.320 and i agree with you but you know as i worked on the book i started to realize that you know there

00:15:44.680 is a real significance to it as much as we give it significance um so for example you know the

00:15:53.320 more identity you know the more uh say uh um female identity is politicized in public life

00:16:00.920 that also politicizes a male identity especially if if that form of identity politics is saying

00:16:08.800 that men are a bad thing you know talking about the patriarchy or something um that automatically

00:16:14.620 politicizes men and makes it part makes being male a part of the public sphere and you know

00:16:21.980 in one way or another we we we have to address that you know and we can address it by going oh

00:16:27.720 it you know it shouldn't matter but it does matter and uh you know that's that's as far as i got yeah

00:16:35.900 I mean but isn't there a positive element to it when it comes to diversity quotas where it just

00:16:41.020 it does give other people who've been underrepresented a voice I mean there was one

00:16:45.860 time at the BBC where it just seemed to be unless you were white middle class or actually let's be

00:16:50.760 fair upper middle class went to Oxford or Cambridge you didn't really get to looking so during the

00:16:56.040 the Christmas holidays I went to a play called Nine Night which was on at the West End which

00:17:01.580 was on at the national theater and it was by it was the first play at the west end to be um to be

00:17:07.240 have a black female playwright ever the first one we went to the play it was brilliant and what was

00:17:13.280 great about it is instead of going to the theater and being surrounded by people of one demographic

00:17:18.380 you looked out there were mixed couples there there was diverse and it actually created a really

00:17:24.180 vibrant interesting uh experience yes i completely agree with you and and even with you know if that

00:17:32.500 playwright for example was selected on the basis of their race if they were a good playwright you

00:17:39.900 know and they produced good plays that you know it can work well and and i've i've i've seen

00:17:45.140 although i think there's quite a few examples of it out there i mean i quite like how you know for

00:17:51.640 example women's football and women's cricket has been directly promoted you know and that's a form

00:17:57.580 of identity politics in the public sphere and it's been it's been a big success. I think there

00:18:05.060 are other examples out there. The point where it comes into a critique is when you know the people

00:18:15.940 being promoted are not and are not good or you know not up to standard and you're only selecting

00:18:23.500 them on the basis of you know their identity you know then and then it can obviously get us into

00:18:28.480 trouble and just reduce the quality of of art of you know of sport that's appearing in front of us

00:18:34.920 etc but i agree with you you know it's it's not by by all means all bad and i mean one thing in

00:18:42.020 one of the chapters I write about diversity itself as a word you know there are different

00:18:48.060 interpretations of that I mean the politics of diversity the ideology of it is actually

00:18:54.280 different from the meaning of the word diversity itself which means literally you know variation

00:19:00.420 and difference while the politics of diversity isn't really about variation and differences

00:19:05.800 is often about choosing certain people over others you know on the basis of you know their

00:19:11.440 skin colour and their gender etc it's interesting that you say that because isn't there an argument

00:19:18.900 to be made that so for instance um if somebody isn't as good let's say well let's say for instance

00:19:25.300 a comedian just plucking something out the air but and they're not as good but don't worry me

00:19:30.940 you'll get your opportunities you'll be fine don't worry about it but they see them on a

00:19:34.540 like for instance on a panel show like for instance uh i so for instance like a black

00:19:40.180 woman on a panel show and she she might not be at the same level as everybody else but a young

00:19:46.300 black girl could see her and go actually i can do that because i am represented on this tv program

00:19:52.060 therefore that becomes for me suddenly a career path that i can choose and pursue whereas if that

00:20:00.000 young black girl saw an all-white male panel she might go instinctively or subconsciously do you

00:20:06.000 know what, I'm not represented there, therefore I will not, that is not a career path for

00:20:12.820 me.

00:20:13.020 Yes, I can see aspects of that, which I agree with you to an extent.

00:20:18.660 But the further we go down that path of identifying with our skin colour, the further away, or

00:20:26.280 our gender or whatever, the further away we get from the idea of being inspired by ideas

00:20:31.520 and by quality and by what someone is saying.

00:20:34.800 For example, I mean, I would say sort of my ideal situation would be, you know, someone watching that program sees someone, whoever, whatever color or gender saying something that interests them and being inspired by that.

00:20:49.900 And almost, you know, their demographic is almost irrelevant.

00:20:53.800 I mean, that's the way I would see a kind of an ideal sort of diverse society sort of working.

00:20:59.940 And the more we go down our sort of avenues of separate identities and, you know, that you must be represented by people of that demographic, I think, you know, there are aspects that that's quite dangerous because it's cordoning off, you know, it's communal.

00:21:18.920 It ends up in communal politics, really.

00:21:22.100 And, you know, I like the idea, I mean, the other idea of diversity,

00:21:27.220 which is mixing and difference and, you know, exchange going on.

00:21:31.900 Do you sometimes think, and I think the BBC is particularly guilty of this,

00:21:36.740 in that I see it being more diverse, which on the whole I think is a positive thing,

00:21:43.580 but what I do not see a lot of the time is a diversity of opinion.

00:21:47.960 so it's essentially people who look different but they spout the same sort of rhetoric or have the

00:21:54.440 same political opinions or viewpoints on the world i mean this is the sort of thing that i'm

00:22:00.480 talking about in the book and what i mean by the system of diversity again is i mean it's it's not

00:22:07.020 all obviously what you know people appear on tv and especially in the bbc that it's not all

00:22:13.000 obviously related to diversity and identity politics but an awful lot of it is and and what

00:22:18.940 i write about it in in in the book is um that the system of diversity the fundamental relations there

00:22:25.500 are between you know what we might might call you know the liberal left as i call it or the

00:22:30.840 progressive liberal left which is a really a group of people who oversee society and you know so for

00:22:37.860 example, if you work for the BBC, you're in a position where you can help oversee, you know,

00:22:43.160 what millions of people sort of watch and hear every day. So you've got a very privileged position

00:22:50.000 there. And, you know, people are conscious of that. They, you know, quite rightly, they see it

00:22:55.040 as a responsibility, you know, what they show. But the relation there in terms of diversity politics

00:23:03.220 and identity policies is often that they're overseeing society to cast favour on some

00:23:10.480 identity groups, you know, which, as you say, are being traditionally maybe underrepresented

00:23:15.820 and look to represent them more in a positive light. And then obviously with the other groups,

00:23:23.020 that means, you know, the unfavoured groups, as I call them, that's to cast them in a more

00:23:27.140 negative light as sort of oppressors and then the favoured groups as the oppressed.

00:23:33.220 So I don't know, I forget what the original point was and where I'm going.

00:23:38.520 We were talking about diversity of opinion.

00:23:40.600 So diversity of opinion, yeah.

00:23:42.620 I mean, that's a basic relation and it's a form of knowledge

00:23:48.640 that this is how the world works,

00:23:50.620 is that oppressor groups oppress, you know, the oppressed groups,

00:23:56.760 favoured groups victimise the unfavoured groups.

00:24:01.660 and so you see an awful lot of that in our public sphere now and if you you know if you look at the

00:24:07.820 bbc website you'll see a lot of stories which are based around that sort of relation um of you know

00:24:15.000 for example women being victims and of men and uh and stories being told about that and i mean i

00:24:22.400 you know i'm not against those stories being told at all you know if they're real but it's it's an

00:24:28.620 It's an interesting thing that's come about more over the years

00:24:32.480 that that sort of reality is promoted

00:24:35.700 and placed in front of us a lot more.

00:24:39.480 And situations which don't reflect that reality

00:24:43.420 do not so much get put in front of us

00:24:46.340 when we're watching the BBC news or something like that.

00:24:49.860 I hope I wasn't waffling.

00:24:52.040 No, no, no.

00:24:53.080 What I was going to ask you is,

00:24:54.160 do you think there's a kind of intellectual,

00:24:56.300 philosophical underpinning to this whole thing?

00:24:58.620 because it strikes me increasingly that this whole thing of social justice

00:25:02.860 and identity politics, it's more like a system of faith

00:25:06.900 than it is a system of thought,

00:25:09.160 in the sense that quite a lot of the things that they talk about

00:25:14.140 are not factually based.

00:25:15.700 So take something like the gender pay gap, right?

00:25:18.300 This is something we've explored plenty on the show,

00:25:20.780 and we've had scientists and experts come and tell us basically

00:25:24.140 that the gender pay gap, there is some gender pay gap,

00:25:26.700 But largely, it's down to people's choices, and it's not down to discrimination, right?

00:25:30.800 But this is completely counter to the mainstream narrative that is being advanced the whole time, right?

00:25:36.480 And if you look at all kinds of other areas, whether it's racial discrimination,

00:25:40.780 we've talked to Minira Merza, who you know, about how complicated that picture actually is,

00:25:46.000 as opposed to the thing that we're being fed by the media all the time.

00:25:49.740 Wherever you look, you start to see that there are assertions about the way the world is,

00:25:54.440 what you're talking about oppressed as oppressed the hierarchy of the oppression olympics etc

00:25:59.780 it's not actually based in fact right it's not based on research it's not based on science it's

00:26:06.240 based on a kind of seeming it seems to me and challenge me if you don't agree a kind of like

00:26:12.140 you have to get this faith-based assertion into your head and if you don't then you must be

00:26:20.220 excommunicated then you're racist

00:26:22.300 then you're sexist then you're whatever

00:26:23.740 there's certainly that element to it

00:26:25.940 I mean I would

00:26:27.920 describe it more as ideological

00:26:29.880 you know in that it's

00:26:32.460 these forms of politics

00:26:34.060 they unite knowledge and politics

00:26:36.520 you know the knowledge of

00:26:38.480 oppression it automatically

00:26:40.700 follows that you should favour

00:26:42.300 the groups that oppress

00:26:44.080 that makes basic sense

00:26:45.760 but that knowledge of oppression

00:26:48.760 is universal

00:26:49.560 you know it's it's it's society wide so i mean i i draw a distinction between

00:26:56.360 whereas when we talk about racism or sex or whatever i mean you know clearly exists but

00:27:02.020 there's there's real actual behavioral racism that exists and then there's ideological racism

00:27:08.720 which which is a much broader category and that's when you say ideological racism what

00:27:16.120 kind of thing are you talking about well um it's it's for example calling someone racist you know

00:27:22.480 if you if you if they want to if they advocate reduce the immigration you know so you know in

00:27:30.120 in the sort of way i write about it in the book you know reducing immigration would be

00:27:36.180 reducing the increase of favored groups you know immigrants you know non-white people non-english

00:27:43.080 non-british people in the country so that goes against the sort of the politics of diversity

00:27:48.500 and you know if you're an anti-racist uh you you naturally think well you you can be easily led to

00:27:56.800 well if i'm if i'm on this side as an anti-racist and uh i favor immigration then you know someone

00:28:05.280 who who wants to put some limits on it is automatically a racist it kind of maybe i'm

00:28:11.440 not explaining that well but it all sort of seems to fit again as a as a sort of system of belief

00:28:19.240 yeah so that you can have faith in and you mentioned uh you know there's not so much thought

00:28:25.140 you know sort of intellectual basis theory that's in a way what makes it so powerful

00:28:30.380 this forms of politics that you can just get up every morning and you can roll it out you don't

00:28:36.940 have to really do anything thinking about it you can respond to situations as they arise

00:28:42.100 on that basis uh and it's easy sounds great actually i mean i'm gonna do it that sounds

00:28:48.960 brilliant absolutely i mean that's how you know effective politics works and i you know it's a

00:28:54.840 big theme of the book and as i was working towards uh you know actually starting to write it and then

00:29:01.400 writing it has kept on striking me how powerful this politics is and and over time i started to

00:29:09.100 realize more and more it's largely because it's just damn easy it's so straightforward all you

00:29:14.920 need to know is that these these certain identity groups are victimized and these other ones are

00:29:20.880 oppressors and and from there almost all else follows you know the thing i find really interesting

00:29:28.300 with identity politics is how it sort of ignores the working class in this country and you know

00:29:36.120 especially the white working class and if you look at it in terms of like i'm a former teacher so

00:29:40.520 in terms of achievement white working class boys on the bottom rung and it's a problem right the

00:29:46.660 way through education and we talk about you know and we you know we as teachers used to sit down

00:29:51.220 talk about how to engage white british and all the rest of it but we don't seem to acknowledge

00:29:56.680 is that class has a major part to play in this.

00:30:00.620 Like, people say, like, you know, white men are the oppressors,

00:30:03.060 but if you were born, like, I used to teach in Cornwall,

00:30:05.380 if you were a white male born in a working-class part of Red Ruth,

00:30:09.300 for example, you don't have a lot of hope or a lot of chance

00:30:13.480 unless you're very, very lucky.

00:30:16.260 That's just your white privilege.

00:30:17.600 Yeah.

00:30:18.360 Yes, yeah, that's true.

00:30:19.880 um no it's uh and sorry i'm gonna return to this whole system of diversity thing

00:30:27.860 um of how that works because i mean obviously the the working class appears to be kind of

00:30:34.560 ignored and you know people talk about oh the the left has left the working class behind

00:30:40.240 but i don't think many many people have intended necessarily to do that although there's there's a

00:30:47.340 definite cultural distance there there's just kind of basic lack of sympathy lack of familiarity

00:30:53.420 lack of knowledge which we used to have back in the day of the course you know it's um it's kind

00:30:58.960 of almost going back to a very old form of class politics i think but i think it's happened largely

00:31:04.840 by accident um but yeah going back to the system of diversity i think you know that these new forms

00:31:10.880 of identity politics are very important in this in what's happened to the working class not the

00:31:15.900 only important thing by any means but it's you know especially white working class people but

00:31:20.960 um and it goes back i think to um when i talked about you know the overseeing class for example

00:31:27.620 of the progressive liberal left and this book this has become more of a sort of template for

00:31:32.340 for how you know white people can get over their privilege you know for example or white men can

00:31:38.520 get over their their multiple privilege is by favoring the favored groups now this being an

00:31:45.340 ally yes and this this naturally suits people who are quite well off quite comfortable you know

00:31:55.000 they can deal with that they have some cushioning against passing favor over to other people but if

00:32:03.160 you're working class the idea of of favoring a different group other than your own and giving

00:32:09.580 them special protections and and favoritism when especially if you're if you're competing with

00:32:16.780 say say poor immigrants you know in for housing and for jobs just existentially that that sort of

00:32:24.940 that idea i think is almost incomprehensible you know if you're in that sort of situation

00:32:29.680 so i think these forms of politics have have resulted in further distancing you know cultural

00:32:39.180 distancing there you know both on the working class side and also on you know from the aggressive

00:32:44.680 liberal left and the wider middle class I think you know. I find it really refreshing that you've

00:32:49.460 raised that point because what I've noticed in particularly when doing comedy which is very

00:32:54.980 liberal left in inverted commas is the contempt they have for working class people. So I used to

00:33:01.680 live in Croydon and for those of you in our global audience who don't know Croydon it's a beautiful

00:33:05.920 place go there if you're visiting if you want to die go there right so i used to live in croydon

00:33:11.540 my flatmate um was a mixed race plumber and he was a ukip voter no mixed race electrician sorry

00:33:18.480 he was a ukip voter it's all the same mate yeah and i sat him down and i said to him dan what why

00:33:23.560 i don't get why you vote for ukip you know you're mixed race isn't this a racist party and he also

00:33:28.920 voted brexit as well and he was like see the thing you need to understand francis is that because of

00:33:34.300 freedom of trade from the eu lots of people come over here and they can do my job and i've got no

00:33:40.540 problem with that as people they're nice people i work with them they're decent lads the problem

00:33:44.720 is is that then that means that my rate of pay gets put down as a result because there is more

00:33:51.280 competition so by voting brexit i am protecting myself economically and financially and when you

00:33:58.700 hear someone put that argument forward you go well fair enough because that's what we do when we vote

00:34:03.380 we just vote for our own interests

00:34:05.800 but why is it that that is

00:34:07.980 if this working class person

00:34:10.280 does that, that is deemed to be

00:34:12.120 racist, yet if you have the

00:34:14.040 other side of it, that's acceptable

00:34:15.760 sorry I'm a bit lost for words

00:34:22.900 no it's fine

00:34:24.300 Francis has that effect on people

00:34:25.900 mainly women mate

00:34:27.240 I guess what he's saying

00:34:30.060 is how come is it

00:34:31.080 It's okay for certain people to vote in favor of the economic interests. Yeah, but not for others

00:34:37.560 In in the system that we live in. Yeah, I think you know

00:34:41.640 it's it's largely down to

00:34:44.920 You know a certain type of people are controlling

00:34:48.260 You know the chattering classes you might say, you know who are largely controlling debate, you know, and how how

00:34:55.180 how opinions appear and what opinions appear.

00:35:00.480 And obviously, I mean, working class voices,

00:35:02.580 I mean, we know it.

00:35:03.640 They barely exist in our public life now,

00:35:07.020 which is actually a bit of a change from,

00:35:10.280 I think, back in the 60s and 70s

00:35:12.300 when they were coming more and more into public life.

00:35:14.720 And now they're becoming more and more marginalised.

00:35:18.900 So I think it's partly that.

00:35:22.620 But, you know, and that distancing,

00:35:24.360 obviously it kind of it helps you know it helps us you know to be ignorant about people

00:35:31.640 you know if we we kind of all share the same sort of opinion uh we we don't know these people we

00:35:37.360 don't sort of respect their views sorry i'm waffling it no no no maybe cut that bit no

00:35:43.460 we'll have to now no we're not cutting that bit we're keeping that in no but i was going to ask

00:35:49.820 you in terms of the the left abandoning working people it's like if i look at it and i imagine

00:35:57.080 that that's where i am and i look at the political system now i don't really see a party to vote for

00:36:04.940 i think a lot of a lot of the kind of traditional old school left people would have voted for ukip

00:36:10.960 at some point particularly while brexit hadn't been achieved yet but now you're not going to

00:36:17.660 vote for Labour under Jeremy Corbyn, you're probably not going to vote Tory, UKIP is in

00:36:22.700 disarray. So where do those people go? Our current party system doesn't offer anywhere

00:36:29.200 for people like that. And it's a very large body of population. And I've seen from other

00:36:35.840 people you've interviewed that they've said, you know, there's a big gap there. And if

00:36:42.100 anyone can plug that gap they can win elections but but we can certainly see none of the established

00:36:48.180 parties have any intention of filling that gap and i mean it's one thing that i write in the book

00:36:53.780 that you know i mean my my emotion is is still you know even after leaving labor and criticizing it

00:37:02.240 sort of extensively i still have a bit of love for labor and i'd still like it to change and become

00:37:08.220 more of a meanable party to a greater body of people but through writing the book and you know

00:37:14.920 and thinking a lot about this sort of stuff i realized it was virtually impossible for it to

00:37:19.520 to to do that because it's become so immersed in the politics of identity it's almost the first

00:37:26.860 thing that a lot of its people reach for and we see this in the public sphere continually

00:37:31.900 you know there are set normally several identity politics storms happening in our public sphere at

00:37:38.460 any one time and you can bet that labor people and senior labor people labor mps are going to

00:37:45.280 be involved in that and they're going to be fighting on one side and i mean one thing that

00:37:51.500 i did in the book before the book was i looked into um the rule book because i noticed you know

00:37:59.040 being labour how politics of identity preferentiality was all over just internal labour processes

00:38:07.100 from you know how you selected who went to conference to selecting candidates you know

00:38:12.520 who could serve in a you know a very local ward committee you had to have to have a certain amount

00:38:18.260 of women you've got officers which you know specifically represent different identity groups

00:38:25.340 and it's these favoured identity groups, it's non-white and it's women and some other groups.

00:38:33.340 So, I mean, I looked into, like I say, the rule book and I found, I think in like 90 odd pages of it,

00:38:41.980 that there were, I think, something like 250, 300 mentions of women, women and gender alone.

00:38:50.720 and it was maybe about a third of that maybe a bit more for ethnic related categories so 90 pages

00:38:58.840 you've got maybe um three mentions on average of this gender or gender and gender related categories

00:39:06.560 on every page and this is how the party does its internal business and activists have been fighting

00:39:13.160 to control the rule book like this for years you know they've been fighting for decades

00:39:18.040 to achieve this sort of thing and you can't just like go oh we're not into we're not into this

00:39:23.340 anymore because you know this stuff is institutionalized into the part it's worked

00:39:28.140 into it and we're seeing this uh more and more in the public sphere you know the similar similar

00:39:35.280 sort of stuff that labor has done you know with preferentiality by by identity we're seeing

00:39:40.820 replicated in all sorts of institutions you know national institutions like the bbc

00:39:45.360 other media organisations for example

00:39:48.140 charities

00:39:49.820 and even businesses

00:39:50.720 almost labour

00:39:53.160 I've written about as an institution of diversity

00:39:55.760 which provides a template

00:39:57.480 for this sort of preferentiality

00:40:00.420 and the more it gets worked

00:40:02.060 into institutions

00:40:03.620 and is the basis on which they

00:40:05.800 conduct their internal affairs

00:40:07.660 the less

00:40:09.340 easier it is to change it

00:40:11.280 and we haven't got any

00:40:13.720 returning to your point about political parties you know we haven't got any political party which

00:40:19.560 is you know any major political party anyway which is even at the threshold of addressing

00:40:26.840 the consequences of that and whether that's all such a good idea so this is what i was going to

00:40:31.320 ask you before uh fancy you jump in what does it mean to be left anymore because one of the big

00:40:36.480 criticisms that we get is we talk to a lot of people who are kind of in your position who

00:40:41.120 who are coming from the left but are frustrated about this obsession with identity politics and

00:40:47.720 diversity and social justice there and people say to us well all you do is you just get right-wing

00:40:53.080 guests on and we're like they're not right-wing they're just not part of that so what where does

00:41:01.220 that leave someone like you how what what are your leftist credentials what makes you someone

00:41:05.740 of the left still i still consider the self yeah definitely of the left and it's but it more comes

00:41:11.800 down to economics and redistribution you could say class although i'm i'm a bit reluctant to

00:41:18.800 get into these categories of set categories you are this and that especially since i think in

00:41:24.740 one aspect with the working class now which i think is quite interesting that literally as a

00:41:29.660 category it doesn't make sense anymore you know the working class was formed around organized

00:41:35.040 labor and large-scale industry which is now largely gone now so it's it's more of an existential

00:41:43.060 category which you know is something that you feel yeah but it doesn't necessarily define how

00:41:48.520 how rich or poor you are um so i mean i think it's quite difficult to do that but in terms of

00:41:56.260 being left i mean i i still believe in redressing inequalities generally in in society and addressing

00:42:03.120 the dominance of the finance industry for example the city of london here and you know that sort of

00:42:11.280 stuff is mostly around economics and finance i'd say well you know the sort of the the left's now

00:42:17.000 social agenda a lot of it i find very alienating because it is based around identity the thing that

00:42:24.460 i find interesting when it comes to labor is they don't seem as interested as in winning elections

00:42:31.100 which I find really really bizarre

00:42:33.880 like after the last general election

00:42:35.740 I was talking to friends who were very

00:42:37.660 progressive left and voted Corbyn

00:42:39.920 and they were talking about the last election

00:42:41.900 like it was a victory and I'm like

00:42:43.120 I don't think you understand, you still lost

00:42:46.240 when did

00:42:47.300 when did Labour and our

00:42:49.580 voted Labour, when did

00:42:51.280 we lose this

00:42:52.540 idea of wanting to win an election

00:42:55.300 well I think that's the change

00:42:57.840 from the new Labour

00:42:59.840 compact in the Labour Party

00:43:01.960 to the Corbyn one

00:43:02.980 and you could say maybe

00:43:05.820 the Ed Miliband regime was

00:43:07.380 kind of a crossover to that

00:43:09.780 because New Labour

00:43:12.280 it came to be

00:43:14.240 largely defined by winning

00:43:16.040 elections, that was

00:43:17.140 a large part of the faith

00:43:19.420 although looking back on it

00:43:21.940 now, and this is something I explored

00:43:24.000 in the book, of

00:43:25.480 starting to realise

00:43:28.140 how ideological Labour was underneath it all.

00:43:31.200 But on the surface, they were very much concerned

00:43:34.260 with just winning elections, really.

00:43:36.700 But that enables you to roll out your programmes, you know,

00:43:40.520 and stuff which isn't necessarily in your manifesto.

00:43:43.700 So I think, yeah, that changed to first Ed Miliband

00:43:47.720 and then the far left, you know, that they've been,

00:43:52.320 that sort of, that side of the Labour Party

00:43:54.480 has been out of power basically forever.

00:43:58.140 You know, they're not used to it.

00:43:59.540 And so their sort of sense of being,

00:44:03.080 it's not so attached, what they value,

00:44:05.700 it's not so attached with actually having power.

00:44:08.540 You know, so I'd say it's more about familiarity

00:44:12.840 as much as anything.

00:44:14.440 But isn't that the point of a political party

00:44:16.420 to get, I know, to get into power?

00:44:18.740 Or am I just losing sight of it?

00:44:21.620 You know, you want to impose your programme.

00:44:26.080 So, I mean, there's compromises to be made, you know, how much are you sort of purist about your programme, what you want to do if you got into power, and then how much are you prepared to actually sort of address the electorate as a group?

00:44:40.640 And I mean, that's a sort of balancing act, really, as I sit.

00:44:44.860 and the thing that i find particularly interesting when it comes we talk about the hierarchies of

00:44:50.340 privilege the the the number one the apex for the hierarchy of privilege seems to be old white men

00:44:57.360 which to me seems incredibly ageist because a lot of old people in this country quite frankly

00:45:03.480 are struggling economically financially you know they can barely they're barely able to get through

00:45:10.260 the month yeah i thought but you know like we were saying earlier about sort of facts and reality

00:45:15.640 isn't really what this these forms of politics are all about and you know it's ideological and

00:45:21.320 i think an interesting aspect with older people is that they appear as being regressive and

00:45:28.940 backward and uh and for example i mean you could say there is some reason for saying that you know

00:45:35.680 for example that racist maybe uh sexist attitudes in a certain sense are more common amongst you

00:45:43.440 know older people of previous generations um but i that's more of an excuse i think to sort of bash

00:45:50.420 them but i think it's this is where progressive you know the progressive element of politics comes

00:45:57.440 in because progressive politics is really about it's about things improving over time getting

00:46:03.300 better over time and it's a faith that that's happening so in that sense people who are around

00:46:10.520 you know in previous times are naturally sort of worse and more regressive than you know young

00:46:17.240 people for example so you find sort of progressive politicians they tend to exalt the younger and

00:46:23.720 then dismiss the older which I mean I agree with you I think that's a really bad way of you know

00:46:30.300 addressing especially from the left solidarity in society you know of dismissing people who have

00:46:37.040 been on this earth for a lot longer than we have have a lot more experience and just dismissing

00:46:42.720 them as if they have nothing valuable to offer i think that's that's a terrible approach

00:46:47.100 i think that should be like a cut-off point for like white privilege once you get to like 70

00:46:51.760 you've got some kind of wasting disease that takes away your privileges and you just

00:46:56.860 Yeah, it's called osteoporosis.

00:46:58.860 Yeah, exactly.

00:47:00.060 Thank you for taking that joke into a very, very dark place.

00:47:04.380 That's what I do, man.

00:47:05.800 But it's interesting because when people criticise Trump,

00:47:08.460 a number of times what I saw from people was like,

00:47:11.440 what do you expect?

00:47:12.240 He's an old white man.

00:47:14.360 And it was just like, of all the things,

00:47:16.000 I don't agree with Trump.

00:47:17.820 Yeah, you do.

00:47:18.500 Yeah, I do.

00:47:19.860 The moment when he said, my mum's Venezuelan,

00:47:22.600 that Venezuelans can't go into America,

00:47:24.700 I fully agreed with it.

00:47:25.900 but no

00:47:27.080 I

00:47:27.400 but

00:47:28.200 it just seems

00:47:29.240 such a bizarre

00:47:29.800 thing to accuse

00:47:30.820 somebody of

00:47:31.700 you know

00:47:32.500 saying

00:47:32.860 he's an old

00:47:34.300 white male

00:47:34.900 therefore

00:47:35.500 he has these

00:47:36.520 views

00:47:36.980 it comes back

00:47:37.660 to it's just

00:47:38.260 so easy

00:47:38.940 isn't it

00:47:39.540 yeah

00:47:39.760 and

00:47:40.220 you know

00:47:40.820 this

00:47:41.000 again

00:47:41.660 what I'm

00:47:42.000 talking about

00:47:42.420 with sort of

00:47:42.860 system of

00:47:43.320 diversity

00:47:43.700 it's like

00:47:44.080 you can say

00:47:45.100 that

00:47:45.540 say if you

00:47:46.120 said that

00:47:46.500 on Twitter

00:47:47.040 you know

00:47:48.080 you see

00:47:48.820 people saying

00:47:49.480 that on

00:47:49.780 Twitter

00:47:50.020 they'll get

00:47:50.460 thousands of

00:47:51.320 retweets

00:47:51.920 shit I need

00:47:52.480 to do that

00:47:52.940 that's the

00:47:54.620 only way

00:47:54.860 your comedy

00:47:55.220 career is

00:47:55.640 going to take off. If you want to be

00:47:57.420 popular, you know, you can do that.

00:47:59.480 You just make these kind of lazy remarks

00:48:01.460 and, you know, that kind of gets

00:48:03.600 you a lot of approval and, you know,

00:48:05.320 it's an effective form of

00:48:07.460 politics. You know, it's so easy. We can all

00:48:09.580 grab hold of it and sort of do it.

00:48:11.380 There you go, guys. If you want to be a social media

00:48:13.420 influencer, you know what to do.

00:48:15.120 You know where to take it. He got

00:48:17.360 fat-shamed to hell as well, Trump.

00:48:19.120 Yeah, he did. He's perfectly

00:48:20.860 respectable to fat-shamed Donald

00:48:23.020 Trump. It is. Although he

00:48:25.080 He does fact-shame other people, so you can say it's a taste of his own medicine.

00:48:30.920 But he has got a fat arse, to be honest.

00:48:33.260 How do you know?

00:48:33.980 I've seen it.

00:48:34.880 I've seen pictures of it.

00:48:36.360 Have you?

00:48:36.800 So you've looked at it and studied that rum?

00:48:40.180 Yeah, I have.

00:48:41.560 Nice to know what kind of porn you watch.

00:48:43.180 Anyway, we're getting towards the end of our interview,

00:48:47.280 and one of the things that we wanted to talk to you about,

00:48:49.720 you talk about a couple of things which I think are really important,

00:48:52.960 And let's get to both of them before we ask our very final question.

00:48:56.600 First of all, you talk about the false power of prediction.

00:49:01.480 People talking about how this is what's going to happen and then this is what's going to happen.

00:49:05.540 If we don't do that, then this is going to happen.

00:49:07.600 And eventually none of it happens.

00:49:09.560 And we all keep going as if those predictions hadn't been made.

00:49:15.020 And that person didn't lose any credibility.

00:49:17.000 We just keep predicting stuff that never happens and then just carry on as if everything is the same.

00:49:22.420 Talk to us about that bit. Well, I think it's a it comes down to know the authority that appears from knowledge

00:49:30.280 And you know obviously there's a good reason for that, you know

00:49:34.960 But obviously it depends on if the knowledge is actually real or not now the thing with predictions is

00:49:42.280 You know by definition the truth is not verified

00:49:46.560 you know you can't tell what's going to happen before it but predictions appear as if they are

00:49:52.160 truthful you know especially if they come from someone you know who is authoritative you know

00:49:56.720 who works for say the bank of england um you know a big organization big international organization

00:50:03.200 you know anyone who produces reports so basically anyone is you know sort of organized uh and they

00:50:10.080 they can produce something which appears authoritative and you can make predictions

00:50:13.680 and that appears as a form of knowledge.

00:50:19.080 But it's obviously sort of, well, like I said before,

00:50:25.360 you can't verify either way.

00:50:28.260 So predictions kind of appear in the public sphere as authoritative

00:50:32.680 and there's no way to demonstrate that

00:50:36.820 until whatever they predicted either happens or doesn't.

00:50:40.640 And, of course, by the time that happens, the whole circus has moved on.

00:50:45.400 So you can predict another thing.

00:50:49.480 With the same level of authority.

00:50:51.100 Yeah.

00:50:51.480 As long as you have the position and the ability to contact the media

00:50:57.080 and the authority and the receptivity from the media

00:51:02.620 to get your stuff out there, you can keep on replaying it.

00:51:06.540 And it doesn't really matter.

00:51:07.500 I mean, some people are obviously going to pick you up on it,

00:51:11.140 but most people out there are not really paying attention.

00:51:14.360 Do you realise what you've just done is given a blueprint

00:51:16.560 to how to become a Guardian journalist?

00:51:19.520 I couldn't possibly.

00:51:21.780 And then just at the end, fuck old people.

00:51:24.120 Yeah.

00:51:24.740 And then that's it.

00:51:25.960 You're there.

00:51:26.800 But, I mean, it's interesting, you know,

00:51:28.820 because it does seem to be that you make these grandiose predictions

00:51:33.080 and everybody discusses it,

00:51:34.500 and then next week we go on to something else.

00:51:36.140 And really, it isn't the only point of a prediction

00:51:38.320 so that you can end it with four words, I told you so.

00:51:42.900 I mean, that's essentially it, isn't it?

00:51:44.680 And then people go back to it and then go, look how I was right.

00:51:47.460 Well, I mean, that would be the approach which follows

00:51:52.740 the disciplines of theory and knowledge and checking and falsifying

00:51:58.480 and then looking to revise your theories and all the rest of it.

00:52:03.520 But politics isn't like that.

00:52:05.000 you know it's it's it's more about authority and and getting your thing out there yeah so it's not

00:52:11.580 i told you so it's it's about what you're telling people is going to happen yeah and then that

00:52:16.120 allows you to control what happens in the present right yes it's about shaping the message today so

00:52:21.720 the different decisions get made because you predicted something precisely yeah exactly

00:52:26.480 another final point i wanted to ask you about as well is you talk about you know one of my one of

00:52:31.360 we're very big fans of Dave Rubin and his show, and he talks a lot about the power of good ideas

00:52:36.920 over bad ideas, which is something that I share as well. I think ideas are very important.

00:52:41.780 Discussing them is very important, which is one of the reasons we do the show.

00:52:45.100 But one of the things you mention in the book, and you make quite clear, is that this ideology

00:52:51.460 that we're talking about, the ideology of social justice, of diversity and whatever,

00:52:55.320 it will not be defeated through ideas because they're not fighting that cultural war through

00:53:02.840 ideas they're fighting it through institutions which they've seized control over right so what

00:53:09.020 is the answer man you've got about 30 seconds to come up with a blueprint for how we solve this

00:53:13.980 crisis of western civilization go well i don't there isn't a silver bullet i was joking i know

00:53:20.080 there's no silver yeah we're fucked fucked fucked i tell you but but i i think it's it's it's basically

00:53:27.320 about all of us who are concerned and give a shit that we we do get active and we organize

00:53:35.000 and we contact each other and we form institutions and to do that you need money and you need people

00:53:42.580 prepared to put in hard work and you know this this takes time i mean like i say with with the

00:53:48.980 book you know sort of exploring this idea of a system of diversity and i didn't use that word

00:53:54.020 by mistake it's you know it's systemic in a sense um but you can you can break out of it

00:54:01.280 but you're taking a risk when you do everyone is taking a risk and uh to to make to make any sort

00:54:08.660 of politics which is withdrawing away from that or criticizing that while preserving you know the

00:54:15.060 elements which are good hopefully um has has got to you know be organized and and rigorous and

00:54:22.620 well financed um so i mean this this isn't easy we don't do it just by sitting and pontificating

00:54:29.800 like we do here yeah like like i'm doing yeah like we're doing well i think the ben made a

00:54:35.560 very eloquent point there that we need money uh you know what i'm talking about anyway um give

00:54:40.540 them money yeah exactly yeah and we'll be plugging your book in a second but um final question

00:54:46.100 francis right so this is how we always like to end our interviews ben um so what is the important

00:54:52.680 thing uh that um we are not talking about at the moment as a society but actually we really should

00:54:59.780 be well it's something i mean i i would say that i've you know i find it uncomfortable to talk

00:55:06.420 about myself and and that talking the more we do talk about it the more uncomfortable things do get

00:55:13.240 but it's it's islamism see you later guys bye

00:55:17.220 you know which is i mean i think a lot of our you know our public sphere they really do

00:55:26.340 uh i mean want want to sort of put it away you know that it doesn't really exist out there but

00:55:33.440 But it's, you know, as I found sort of exploring the themes of the book, it's a very powerful form of politics.

00:55:41.380 It's very linked into the left and the liberal left and even beyond that.

00:55:46.440 And, you know, it's very organised.

00:55:48.660 I mean, that's the characteristic of it.

00:55:50.300 So I think just being honest and as I like to think I do in the book, just to have more description of what's going on in that sort of world, in our public sphere, would be very valuable, I think.

00:56:06.860 Fantastic. Listen, before we let you go, tell everybody your Twitter handle is?

00:56:12.220 So it's at Ben Cobley.

00:56:14.060 At Ben Cobley.

00:56:14.940 B-E-N-C-O-B-L-E-Y.

00:56:16.540 Perfect. We'll put that in the YouTube videos we always do.

00:56:19.420 get this book it's fantastic both francis and i have read it we really enjoyed it you know it's

00:56:24.420 a good book when francis has read it yeah absolutely it doesn't happen very often

00:56:27.700 and uh yeah check out ben's work you've got a blog as well if you want to tell us about that

00:56:33.400 yeah that's called a free left blog um i don't write so much for it now um but there's there's

00:56:39.580 over i think about 150 articles on there a lot of them about identity politics fantastic so check

00:56:46.300 all of that out and of course we are at

00:56:48.340 TriggerPod on Twitter, on Instagram

00:56:50.120 on Facebook

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00:57:01.840 is there anything else we need to mention? Yes

00:57:03.920 if you like the show could you please

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00:57:08.440 on iTunes

00:57:10.320 Sounds so pathetic

00:57:11.720 There's nothing wrong with this

00:57:13.620 That's rubbish

00:57:14.300 look i find this hate speech disgusting can i just say and i'm offended and as somebody who

00:57:22.080 is half latin american you're all oppressing me fuck you but no uh please leave us a message on

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00:58:11.220 Thanks a lot, see you later guys, bye.

00:58:12.980 Bye.

TRIGGERnometry - February 17, 2019

Ben Cobley on Identity Politics, Positive Discrimination and the Left

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