TRIGGERnometry - July 22, 2020


Benjamin Boyce： ＂The Rise of Social Justice is a Wake-Up Call＂

Topics
anti-racism theology Evergreen State College experiment
Hosted by
Francis Foster Konstantin Kisin
Mentioned
Benjamin Boyce Brett Weinstein Ibram X. Kendi Olive Discomfort Robin DiAngelo Tucker Carlson Dave Rubin Gen Z White BLM1
I Am a Grooming Gang Survivor： My Story Bret Weinstein - We Can Stop a Civil War

Episode Stats


Length

56 minutes

Words per minute

169.85

Word count

9,579

Sentence count

312

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Toxicity

40

sentences flagged

Hate speech

19

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Benjamin Boyce is a content creator and graduate of the Evergreen State College. In this episode, we discuss the student activism that took over Evergreen in 2017, and the impact it had on the rest of the world.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.
00:00:09.000 I'm Constantine Kissin.
00:00:10.500 And this is the show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.
00:00:16.140 Our brilliant guest today is a content creator and the graduate of the Evergreen State College,
00:00:22.340 Benjamin Boyce. Welcome to Trigonometry.
00:00:24.860 Hey, guys. Thanks for having me on.
00:00:26.560 It's great to have you on. You've got the background.
00:00:28.360 you're right there in the field of beautiful flowers uh it's fantastic to have you on anyone
00:00:33.560 who doesn't know who you are just tell everybody a little bit about how are you where you are what
00:00:37.740 has been your journey through life how do you find yourself having this weird zoom chat with us
00:00:41.540 yeah well the basic story is that i was going through life and i had a dante moment and instead
00:00:52.280 of going to hell i went to this small college in the woods called the evergreen state college and 0.74
00:00:57.380 I went there to study literature and narrative specifically, how it operates, how you pull
00:01:02.820 it apart and put it together and what it does for and to people. And about halfway through my time
00:01:09.120 at the Evergreen State College, a new president came on and he empowered some faculty and they
00:01:16.620 created the college's purpose around social justice, but specifically about racial justice.
00:01:24.000 And they began to implement ideas that I would ascribe to, I guess, Robin DiAngelo is the most popular proponent of these ideas called anti-racism.
00:01:35.440 And whenever I speak about anti-racism, I'm putting that in quotes and we can get into that.
00:01:39.900 But that was in 2015.
00:01:42.720 By the spring of 2017, the college kind of collapsed in an absurdist version of a race war.
00:01:51.220 And the students took over the campus, accused this very, very progressive, explicitly anti-racist institution of being the equivalent of the most white supremacist structure in the world or just a part of that white supremacist structure.
00:02:08.260 they roamed the campus with baseball bats they performed these things called struggle sessions
00:02:14.180 which is a kind of a technical term they didn't know what they were doing but they
00:02:17.600 pilloried and mocked and yelled out and you know just kind of broke down various different
00:02:25.880 authority figures and they live streamed the entire thing to the internet thinking that they
00:02:30.080 were the good guys and it turned out that the world had a different idea of what they were doing
00:02:36.200 And then one professor that they targeted, Brett Weinstein, went on to kind of challenge them and then make what was going on more public than it already was, seeing as that it was streamed online.
00:02:48.500 Well, you're describing things that sound slightly familiar in the last few months, don't they?
00:02:54.240 And this is really one of the reasons that we wanted to have this conversation with you, because you said just before we started, you felt like that would be a warning to the world.
00:03:04.860 And I know Brett did as well. You know, we know Brett, we've met him, we'll be getting him on the show soon. He felt, I think, as well, that this was an opportunity for people to wake up to what was going on. And instead, as you said, it seems to have been more of a blueprint for how to move forward. So take us, you know, kind of through that, how this example of student activism running amok now seems to be society running amok or parts of society running amok.
00:03:33.720 Yeah, there's this interesting chicken-egg quandary about do the ideas come first or does the radicalism or the behavior come first?
00:03:44.300 So with regards to what happened in June of 2020, I think that we can see the buildup and then the explosion that happened worldwide, at least in the Western world, about protests and stuff, nominally about Black Lives Matter.
00:04:00.680 But I think that there was a lot of just kind of pent-up energy being released because everybody had been in lockdown.
00:04:09.340 But that narrative that gave people a reason to protest, specifically Black Lives Matter and the various different things that that means.
00:04:18.780 And people try to control what that means for various different ends, but it does mean different things.
00:04:24.940 You know, there's the statement Black Lives Matter, then there's the organization, then there's everything that's attached to that.
00:04:30.680 So, there's that layer that if you look at what happened at the Evergreen State College, there's a very, you know, kind of basic explanation that a lot of students had been pent up all winter long and now they had a reason to just express a lot of energy.
00:04:47.920 They had been given these tools, I guess, kind of loosely based on a Marxist principle of overthrowing the oppressor and lifting up the victim and kind of reversing the scales of justice in a bid to equalize the scales of justice.
00:05:05.760 So the students had those ideas at hand to justify what they were doing and to explain what they were doing to the world and to themselves and to the administration.
00:05:17.020 But beneath that, beneath what the students were doing, is the behavior of the faculty.
00:05:22.560 And what I've done, because I was going to the Evergreen State College and I was working in the media department.
00:05:29.820 So I was on camera a lot of the time filming a lot of these workshops and seminars and lectures.
00:05:35.080 I saw these ideas being implemented and the ideas are very similar to, you know, exactly the same ideas that are now being implemented in a response to the protests currently.
00:05:48.180 So there's been a big outcry about police injustice and the oppression of black people in America specifically, and now there's this entire set of ideas called anti-racism that corporations and school boards and municipalities and various different organizations are now implementing as a response to that.
00:06:08.720 So at the Evergreen State College, this is my argument, is that the ideas allowed the protests to happen.
00:06:15.400 In current events, the protests are allowing these ideas to be implemented.
00:06:20.120 So I don't know if the ideas once implemented, what they will actually do within any given structure or institution.
00:06:27.240 But I do know that they cause an extreme amount of tension and interpersonal conflict and it fractures community.
00:06:35.560 It makes it impossible to be a human being to a human being.
00:06:39.940 I mean, Benjamin, you know, we're talking about students here.
00:06:42.960 Isn't it a little bit? 0.97
00:06:44.880 Look, students have always been, how can I put this, you know, dickheads. 0.99
00:06:50.220 So, yeah, let's just say dickheads. 1.00
00:06:52.220 You know, they've always, you know, been a little bit bullshit. 0.99
00:06:55.240 If you go right the way back to the 60s when my dad was at university, they were doing sit-ins, you know, protesting, all the rest of it. 0.96
00:07:02.840 Why is this movement now so dangerous as opposed to the movement of the 1960s?
00:07:09.320 That's an interesting question.
00:07:12.200 It depends on where the movement is going to be implemented.
00:07:16.160 What we see now is that, I guess there was a letter that was signed by 100 or 200 Princeton faculty and master's students that called for reorganization of the institution of Princeton around ideas of anti-racism, around ideas that they call equity.
00:07:37.680 And equity is not equality.
00:07:39.500 Equity is equalization.
00:07:41.000 What equity does is that it takes perceived privilege and perceived oppression and it decreases everybody who has this so-called privilege in order to lift up everybody that has this so-called oppression.
00:07:54.360 And what that ends up becoming is a redistribution of resources, both in the sense of just monetary resources or in positions of authority, but also moral reparations.
00:08:07.380 That's what happens. And that's what happened at the Evergreen State College was that once everybody was no longer colorblind, everybody was focused and obsessed with color, with race, with gender, sexuality, all these different vectors or intersectional markers of, you know, your privilege, oppression matrix.
00:08:25.480 and what you were supposed to do is to apologize if you're a white man you're supposed to apologize
00:08:31.080 for your privilege and put yourself behind everybody else and if you were let's say a 0.77
00:08:35.740 disabled black trans individual you were put in front and you were given the moral authority and
00:08:42.360 it no longer had to do with the soundness of your argument you know or the content of your character 0.63
00:08:48.760 it stressed not only your identity, but how you could maximize that identity to rest power and
00:08:57.580 to gain attention. So the ideas that are being implemented, they make people go crazy. And
00:09:05.960 everybody, depending on where they are at life, goes crazy in a different way. And what I've been
00:09:10.940 doing recently is taking what I've discovered and studied at the Evergreen State College
00:09:15.860 And using those tools that I developed to examine how people in New York City Council meetings, in Skype sessions and Zoom sessions, are taking these ideas and implementing the same sort of fracturing of community, of communalism, of I'm going to talk to you as a person, and using their identity to shift power dynamics and to, I guess, to forward some sort of justice.
00:09:45.080 So the example I think you're talking about is a meeting in which a woman is chastising a guy for having his friend's black nephew on his lap or son on his lap.
00:09:59.640 And she's chastising him for this as some kind of evidence of racism, while the boy's black father's in the background, I think, laughing his head off or something along those lines.
00:10:09.680 So I see.
00:10:11.000 But Benjamin, you bring up and repeatedly bring up this point about anti-racism, in inverted commas.
00:10:19.240 Why is it in inverted commas?
00:10:21.000 For anyone who's not familiar with this whole thing, and they're just listening to this and going, anti-racism.
00:10:26.780 I mean, that sounds great.
00:10:28.900 We should all be anti-racist, right?
00:10:30.420 Not if you're Russian, mate. 1.00
00:10:33.040 Well, mate, I was going to say, if you keep this shit up, as a white man, I'm going to make you apologize for everything. 0.99
00:10:38.140 and you're going to get less speaking time on this podcast 0.99
00:10:40.640 just to balance out the privilege. 0.89
00:10:42.940 So shut it. 0.99
00:10:43.400 I mean, I'm seeing a brown woman. 0.99
00:10:44.820 She makes me apologize for being a white man 0.83
00:10:46.600 every single day.
00:10:47.600 I apologize.
00:10:48.360 Anyway, carry on.
00:10:49.120 Hey, if that's what gets you off, man.
00:10:51.940 You know what?
00:10:52.700 That is what gets him off.
00:10:53.700 That's the real problem with this whole dynamic.
00:10:56.620 But listen, for anyone who listens to the argument
00:11:01.780 and goes, I'm against racism.
00:11:04.740 I'm against racism.
00:11:05.800 We all are against racism.
00:11:06.900 So why wouldn't you be anti-racist in this way?
00:11:14.140 There is a very short video that was shared at my place of employment now where there's a video of Ibram X. Kendi, who's the author of How to Be an Anti-Racist.
00:11:25.920 And he says that in this video, and I'm paraphrasing here, he says that to say that you're not racist doesn't mean anything.
00:11:34.760 It's a denial.
00:11:36.560 To ignore racism, to ignore color is to actually strip the experiences of those who have been oppressed.
00:11:42.720 So you can't be not racist anymore.
00:11:45.360 You have to be actively anti-racist.
00:11:49.000 And you ask, well, what does that mean?
00:11:52.100 And when you get into this theology, it becomes very apparent that if you're a white person, you are operating in a state of ignorance as to the racism that is oppressing people constantly.
00:12:06.580 That everything that you take for granted, be it everything from, you know, literally everything is racist now if you start to look through the lens of disparities of outcome.
00:12:18.200 so like a baseball game is racist or a wedding is racist or you know technology is racist
00:12:25.420 all these different parts of your life that you're taking for granted actually you can see
00:12:30.700 that they're all racist that everything that you do or that you don't do is a marker of your
00:12:35.620 privilege and that you're constantly perpetuating this racism that's constantly oppressing everybody
00:12:41.260 else or if you're in the minoritized group or the racialized group then you are constantly
00:12:47.580 under threat, both from macroaggressions, which would be, you know, history of the oppression of
00:12:54.120 white people of your race, but all these microaggressions that are constantly operating
00:12:59.700 behind the surface, or these peak aggressions that you can never actually locate because we
00:13:05.540 don't have the technology to catch up to them. But you're constantly caught in a matrix of struggle
00:13:10.720 and of oppression and once you begin to internalize that kind of process of examining your life for
00:13:19.180 all the things that you did or didn't do and it doesn't matter what you intend right it strips
00:13:23.840 your agency away from you you no longer have any purpose in life other than to fight against
00:13:29.800 this implicit bias that you have this unconscious bias that you have and my contention if you look
00:13:35.680 at how it affects people is that it gradually erodes their ability to be a normal person
00:13:42.160 functioning in the world because they are constantly overrun by this program that's
00:13:50.100 imaginary, that's not really tied to explicit acts of being good or doing good or being bad
00:13:56.300 or doing wrong. I'm explaining in very general terms, so we should probably land on something
00:14:02.620 very specific. But I see that the theology, if you listen to the people who believe this,
00:14:09.480 they're constantly saying you need to read more. You need to do the work more. If you disagree
00:14:14.680 with them, that's your fragility. There's all these tactics that it uses to convert you into
00:14:21.220 a believer of the system. But once you're in the system, once you believe this belief,
00:14:26.000 what are you supposed to do other than tear other people down or tear yourself down?
00:14:29.740 i don't think of it as being constructive at all and why do you not think it's constructive because
00:14:36.900 isn't it i mean we do talk about privilege and look some people are more privileged than others
00:14:41.220 there's different types of privilege i mean that you know that for instance if you might believe
00:14:45.520 in white privilege you're less likely to be get stopped and searched as a white person than you
00:14:49.360 are if you're black you know if you're if you're a man you you're more likely to earn all these
00:14:54.100 sorts of things isn't this a good thing that we're being made aware of it well that is a
00:14:59.500 really good question and i constantly try to humble myself and interact with the good intentions
00:15:07.060 behind the ideas and perform a struggle session on myself because that's what it's kind of inviting
00:15:13.480 us to do is to really grill ourselves and i think that insofar as you withstand criticism
00:15:19.580 you come out stronger as long as you don't give up your agency your self-control your responsibility
00:15:25.940 to somebody else as long as you maintain ownership over your own guilt and shame and don't give it
00:15:32.440 to other people so for example at the evergreen state college towards the end of my tenure there
00:15:39.200 we had to go through mandatory privilege workshops or anti-oppression workshops and
00:15:44.480 in one workshop i was asked to detail my privilege and then to detail the privileges that i don't have
00:15:52.020 And we broke up into small groups to kind of to dwell on these things. And I was in the group with the speaker who ended up being who was a evergreen administrator who figures into the documentary that I've done. She's a character in this story.
00:16:09.160 And I'm like, well, I don't see the world as vectors of privilege and underprivilege.
00:16:14.800 I don't look at my world that way.
00:16:17.560 Why would I want to look at the world that way?
00:16:19.780 And she's like, well, you are privileged to not look at the world that way.
00:16:23.760 And other people aren't privileged enough to not see all the disadvantages that they have.
00:16:29.000 And then she detailed, she was a black woman, but she detailed all the privileges that she had about being able to go on vacation and being really happy that she was going on vacation.
00:16:37.960 And she told a coworker that she was going to go on vacation.
00:16:40.740 And then she realized that her coworker can't afford to go on vacation.
00:16:43.720 And she was oppressing her coworker by expressing her own, you know, happiness of being able to, you know, take a break from her work.
00:16:53.140 And when she went on this lecture, because I knew this is what was going to happen.
00:16:57.360 And I grew up in a Christian church.
00:16:59.900 My dad's a pastor.
00:17:00.760 So I've been exposed to a lot of the mechanics of Christianity.
00:17:05.980 And I've always been very aware of when they're being abused because I've seen the mechanics of Christianity be abused to control people.
00:17:13.980 So what I saw happen in this lecture that she gave was that she just kept on breaking down everything in her life into this very rudimentary, very narrow way of looking at the world of, do I have more or less than others?
00:17:28.080 now when i resisted giving them my privilege and giving them my inventory it's not because i don't
00:17:36.980 have privilege it's not that i it's not because i don't have a deficit deficit of privilege i don't
00:17:43.440 want to use my envy i don't want to go through life envying everybody or feeling uh better than
00:17:51.820 everybody which is what you're supposed to do with this and furthermore i don't want them to
00:17:56.880 be able to control my shame and myself. I don't want to go through life apologizing for being a
00:18:02.640 white male that completely distracts from whether or not I'm creating good content, right? So my 0.81
00:18:08.540 focus is on making something good in the world. And the way that I can evaluate whether it's good
00:18:13.880 or not is the effect that it has in the world. And whether or not I become, you know, better than
00:18:19.880 other people or worse than other people, that's a very private thing for me to evaluate and then to
00:18:25.340 either do better or to turn around and help somebody who's not as good off as me. And using
00:18:31.760 all these tactics of guilt and shame, it's like a broken Christianity. It's got all the sin, 0.97
00:18:36.820 but none of the redemption. It's got all the darkness, none of the light.
00:18:40.340 Benjamin, so let's talk about that because I think the religious aspect of this is interesting. A lot
00:18:45.400 of us who have been paying attention to this thing, particularly those of us who are familiar
00:18:48.840 with how religions operate, have begun to notice some similarities. And the one worry to me,
00:18:55.020 you know i'm skeptical of all religion organized religion certainly uh because i see it as a tool 0.98
00:19:01.260 for manipulating people and imbuing people with original sin guilt shame etc apart from islam 0.90
00:19:08.600 we're quite happy with that make one of clear yes make it absolutely clear you boys are great
00:19:14.180 well done mate saving us yes uh yeah anyway uh moving swiftly on um so there seems to be a lot
00:19:23.160 of similarities between what's happening and the one concern that i've had for some time
00:19:26.920 which is what you put your finger on is there seems to be one thing missing from this new
00:19:32.280 religion which is any sort of possibility of forgiveness uh any sort of possibility of
00:19:37.640 redemption that isn't a product of being destroyed i mean if you look at something like cancel
00:19:43.440 culture it's not enough for somebody to uh to come and confess their sins it's not enough for
00:19:49.300 them to apologize they have to be destroyed they have to be fired they have to lose their job they 0.68
00:19:54.620 have to be ashamed they must never appear on television again etc uh how much of of a religious
00:20:01.280 nature is there to this whole movement well that's a really uh it's a really interesting
00:20:07.860 question that i think that you could go on forever to do that and i think that i've interviewed uh
00:20:14.880 people who have survived cults, gone through cults. And there's this one book that I'm failing
00:20:20.980 to recall right now, but it's an inventory of how the cultural revolution in China or the Chinese
00:20:27.840 government implemented a totalitarian state. And there was a number of different tactics that they
00:20:33.400 used. And one of those tactics that you use in a cult in order to maintain a rigid belief system
00:20:40.220 and therefore maintain control over people is methods of exclusion.
00:20:45.500 If people disagree, either you're with the program or you're out.
00:20:49.620 And then your existence is erased.
00:20:52.340 Actually, that's one of the literal tactics of a destructive cult is that they erase your existence.
00:20:59.380 So when we talk about the religious nature, I think we really need to define what is religion.
00:21:05.860 And this is probably beyond the confines of this discussion.
00:21:09.740 But if we really want to honestly critique in what ways social justice activism or this current spate of moral panic is like a religion and the different tactics or mechanics of religious structures that the anti-racism, quote unquote, or the critical race theory or all these different theories and theosophies behave, then you really need to understand.
00:21:35.360 And I really think, or I would push, that you really need to understand the function of religion and the psychology of the individual and of the group, and where the individual and the group intersect, and the negotiation between individuality and collectivism that religions prove themselves as either destructive or constructive through.
00:21:57.460 I guess what I'm asking, Benjamin, is what are the similarities? Why do you say this is like a religion?
00:22:02.780 um well okay there's a zealotry aspect of it there's um if you look at the ways in which a
00:22:10.640 certain faction of trans rights activism operates and i'm making a distinction between transsexual
00:22:17.980 transsexuals trans people and then a certain behavior on the internet specifically towards a
00:22:24.520 kind of slightly well-known children's author called jk rowling the way in which jk rowling is
00:22:31.300 being attempted to be erased for simply stating kind of a nuanced opinion about the conflict
00:22:39.360 between women's rights and trans women's rights and how we need to have a conversation about that
00:22:45.640 and the ways in which radical trans rights activists feel empowered to erase her existence
00:22:50.720 because her merely stating that women are a different category than trans women so upsets
00:22:58.480 these individuals because it erases or attacks their reality. And it shows that their reality
00:23:05.680 is a construct of belief. In similar ways, the ways in which belief structures operate,
00:23:13.500 if they aren't constantly given a feedback into producing something in the world,
00:23:17.980 if your belief doesn't constantly focus or come back to how do you feel and what are you doing,
00:23:26.580 are you being a good person if it is instead shifted onto are you changing the world for the
00:23:33.420 better is the world bad or can it be better then the locus of control or the locus the focus is no
00:23:40.380 longer on bettering yourself it's about you know projecting all of your evil and your weakness
00:23:46.140 let's just say your imperfection onto the structures in the world and then therefore you
00:23:51.100 go after and you assault these structures in the world i'm straying from the point about making it
00:23:56.300 a religion or tying it directly to a religion but there's just so many different mechanics going on
00:24:01.040 in here that i see similar areas to and you know benjamin you know i i see this movement and you
00:24:06.140 know i we started this journey two years ago and we started listening to people and you know people
00:24:10.900 like yourself i'm from venezuela that means everybody who's watching and listening can have
00:24:14.960 a drink so that's what we do at trigonometry because i always reference my mom but i've seen
00:24:19.860 these ideas before important new ideas i saw them in 99 when chavez came to power you know they 0.97
00:24:26.000 putting forward all these ideas and you know venezuela collapsed it's they're crap ideas
00:24:31.560 why do we keep perpetuating them why do we keep going back to them 0.83
00:24:35.900 they there was an article that was released in reason uh magazine or reason.com and it was based
00:24:44.820 on a scientific study of some sort and it talks about the ways in which virtue signaling or virtue
00:24:51.460 signal culture empowers narcissistic sociopaths. And I've been seeing this over and over again.
00:24:57.920 If you look at the footage of the Evergreen State College, you see that there's certain
00:25:01.960 characters that get to the top of the fray. When the organization shatters, then it becomes a
00:25:09.120 pure power play and it becomes purely theatrical. And in that type of environment,
00:25:15.120 certain personalities get activated or rise to the top. So either these set of ideas
00:25:20.400 kind of inspire people to act like narcissistic sociopaths or they empower people who are already 0.88
00:25:27.000 narcissistic sociopaths. I think that for a certain amount of people, it's really attractive
00:25:33.520 to be on the right side of history and to try to change the world. It allows you to merge into a
00:25:41.220 story that has, which is so superhuman and so otherworldly that you, in a sense, get inflamed
00:25:48.980 by this transcendent fire of being able to actually tackle right now 400 years of oppression.
00:25:57.060 Right now, you can be involved in demolishing a system that has done nobody any good or
00:26:02.900 every good that is done has come at the expense of people, somebody else, right?
00:26:07.800 It's a zero-sum thinking with a messianic message that causes you to think that you're the Messiah.
00:26:14.860 And it inflames your ego and then you just go on this ego trip.
00:26:18.980 So I think on one level, on the psychological level, revolutionary ideas are really suited for people who are discontent with themselves and who don't have a strong moral foundation that constantly causes them to focus first on themselves and then on the world.
00:26:35.900 And I think that in a certain way, because of social media, because of Facebook, the way that Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram are designed, it rewards narcissistic behavior. And these ideas kind of breed upon narcissistic behavior. So it's just, I think it's a conjunction of very similar different things and people being ignorant of the outcome of these ideas.
00:26:57.620 Do you think part of it is also an ignorance of history? Because there seems to be these kind of cycles throughout history where it takes a few generations for people to forget what was a really bad idea. So suddenly, you've got 20 year olds now explaining to me how great communism is when I come from the Soviet Union, right? And that's because they haven't been kind of, you might say they haven't been indoctrinated against it. And to some extent, they've probably been indoctrinated into it by their Marxist professors at
00:27:27.560 university do you think this is kind of the cycle of history and which is back to the kind of 1930s
00:27:32.760 if that's the case then what i think we should well here's the problem with this but i have an
00:27:37.960 idea why don't we just sandbox these ideas in the uk and in america and give give a city over to the
00:27:45.220 communists and say okay let's run your experiment abolish the police empower social workers create
00:27:51.540 a communist government i nominate hull you've never been to hull benjamin it's not no should
00:27:59.000 i go there uh yeah if if you don't like uh having a good no that's unfair on the people of hull i'm
00:28:05.900 sure it's a great town it really isn't i mean we love the people of hull but hull not so much
00:28:10.920 anyway carry on and in a certain extent evergreen the evergreen state college story is a perfect
00:28:17.800 example of how these ideas play out. But built within this activist rhetoric, built within the
00:28:23.780 very foundations of critical race theory, of white fragility theory, of all these different ideas,
00:28:29.220 is a shifting of the blame away from the self. So if Evergreen fails, which it has,
00:28:36.300 Evergreen ran an experiment and it failed. Everybody who still believes in Evergreen or
00:28:41.580 believes in these ideas that, you know, kind of took over Evergreen, shifts the blame to Tucker
00:28:47.460 Carlson, shifts the blame to the right wing media, shifts the blame to the, uh, yokels down the
00:28:53.260 street that voted for Trump, right? So they can, they're, they're literally unable. And this is my
00:28:58.320 main criticism or the damning criticism of the Evergreen State College is that they ran an
00:29:04.660 experiment like good academics, but like bad academics, they were unable to actually do
00:29:09.580 the work of examining why it went wrong, where it went wrong. So even if we do give over Michigan
00:29:16.260 to the Black Lives Matter government and they fail, which they will, because everybody who 1.00
00:29:22.680 generates income, everybody who is productive will leave because their productivity will be
00:29:27.580 given to the loudest people in the room who don't want to be productive. They just want to be right.
00:29:33.900 It will fail. It will collapse. And then they'll blame it on capitalism. They'll always blame it
00:29:39.100 When you say Evergreen failed, what does that mean?
00:29:42.920 Like, is it still there?
00:29:44.720 I mean, what's failing about it?
00:29:47.200 What's failed about it?
00:29:48.800 So if you look at the numbers, and I'll try to make a nuanced point about this.
00:29:52.740 If you look at the numbers, the Evergreen State College ran their social justice experiment.
00:29:57.820 In 2011, they made social justice one of their guiding principles.
00:30:02.980 In 2015, they made anti-racist indoctrination the way in which they're going to achieve social justice. In 2017, they fomented and justified, after the fact, this huge protest that went absolutely viral because it's absolutely stunning how everybody acted in this event.
00:30:22.380 and then the feedback from the environment was i don't want to go and get this kind of education
00:30:29.300 i don't want to go to the evergreen state college and their enrollment has plummeted
00:30:33.640 dramatically the administration has blamed everything except for the protest they'll say
00:30:39.260 well maybe the protest did something but really we think that it's just the economy is different
00:30:43.760 or blah blah blah blah blah they've gone so far as to play a marketing team i'm 90 certain to
00:30:50.040 suppress my videos on the google search rhythm algorithm i'm the one who is reported constantly
00:30:57.100 on evergreen and they stripped about a year ago google kind of flushed my videos from search
00:31:03.640 results of evergreen and two weeks before then the college hired that team so they've tried to
00:31:08.900 do everything they can to do good but nobody wants to go there nobody wants to go the evergreen state
00:31:14.800 College. And this is the nuanced point. Even if you do want a social justice education, even if
00:31:20.940 as a student, you want to go and change the world and to hell with understanding it, the goal is to
00:31:25.800 change it. Why would you go to the Evergreen State College, which proved that they can't even teach
00:31:30.940 you how to do that effectively? If you look at how the students overthrew the world, they're so
00:31:38.040 ridiculous. They made complete fools of themselves, as did all the administrators. So even if you want 1.00
00:31:43.380 that kind of education which is what they're offering why would you go there if you could go
00:31:47.320 to any other college literally any other college in the united states but it but isn't part of the
00:31:52.320 problem benjamin is that and i'm a former teacher i was a teacher for 12 years we have raised a
00:31:58.440 generation of children you know to be you know to essentially see themselves as victims we try and
00:32:04.620 sort all their conflicts out for them it's a very selfish culture we want to protect them
00:32:09.060 we have essentially raised a generation of adults now to be self-indulgent and narcissistic and
00:32:16.680 think the entire world is about them so can we really blame them when they go out and they start
00:32:20.660 behaving like this well see in my reportage on the evergreen state college and now in my reportage
00:32:26.400 on current events i'm not really concerned with the students or let's call it the youth or the
00:32:32.020 kids or whatever i'm concerned with the administrators i'm concerned with the adults
00:32:36.580 in the room. And if you look at the adults, the people who are running, we have lost our sense
00:32:43.300 of authority. It's not the generation that's acting crazy. We have lost our ability to have
00:32:48.160 a positive, strong role model of authority. We don't trust authority. We've gone down this road
00:32:55.680 of deconstructing and deconstructing so long that we can't stomach anybody drawing a line in the
00:33:02.860 sand. I think that the fabric of our society has become so reactionary in a sense, progressively
00:33:09.660 reactionary, that we had to elect a very belligerent authority figure, not authoritarian
00:33:17.120 figure, but authority figure in Trump just to kind of show us the dark side of what we're
00:33:24.000 missing. I think that if you look at Washington State on every level, if you look at the Evergreen
00:33:28.740 state college seattle and the governor they're all very weak leaders who suppress who suppress
00:33:35.820 the uh let's say the conservative faction who want to get back to work constantly suppress the people
00:33:41.480 who want to get back and get the economy rolling and then constantly coddle the people who want to
00:33:46.380 overthrow society like it's filled with hypocrisy and weakness and it's interesting so you say it's
00:33:54.280 field of hypocrisy and weakness don't you think one of the things that we saw in this country which
00:33:59.920 still to this day gets me upset is the fact that you know the black lives matter movement now we
00:34:05.640 can all agree that black lives matter we can all agree that you know racism wherever it occurs
00:34:11.000 should be stamped out but if you look at the black lives matter organization and you see what it is 1.00
00:34:17.080 that they want you know overthrowing capitalism defunding the police you know i don't know the
00:34:22.340 word they use for the nuclear family but basically it's eradicating it we all know that these are 0.99
00:34:26.960 terrible terrible ideas but in our country right now the head of the labor party criticized abolish
00:34:34.560 the police said it was a ridiculous idea and he's now been got he's now checked himself in
00:34:40.060 yesterday after the day before for unconscious biasness training 1.00
00:34:44.440 you're laughing mate we're fucked 1.00
00:34:48.840 no i know to be honest what else do you do when we're all fucked except for laugh i mean i'm a 0.99
00:34:54.800 classical uh camusian you know it's just like the world is absurd at this point and he was head of 0.94
00:35:01.720 the criminal justice uh see he was head of prosecutions that was it he was head of
00:35:07.460 prosecutions in this country he's now checked himself in for unconsciousness biasness trainers
00:35:12.160 But anyway, my point is, why don't we have people who look at these simple things like BLM1 and go, this is quite clearly neo-Marxist nonsense, and we shouldn't be following it?
00:35:27.440 Yeah, yeah.
00:35:27.900 Well, you have to look at the way – there's ways to spend what I'm going to say that might be a little conspiratorial theory, but I do think that there's an iterative process of how we got to this point.
00:35:39.960 It happened in education and it's happened in the media. The media has been captured or compromised where there's such a strong hold on the narrative that always goes in one direction that if three white supremacists show up on a street corner, they're going to use that as proof that white supremacy is on the rise.
00:36:04.480 If an entire city gets torn down by, you know, progressive activists or Antifa activists, that will just be, oh, some people went overboard, but it was a peaceful protest. 0.94
00:36:16.000 Like there's – on every level of analysis, the media shifts the blame and doctors the narrative in such a way that it makes it impossible to – for you to simply say, no, that is ridiculous.
00:36:29.740 So the narrative is being controlled and insofar as the narrative is being controlled, everybody who's speaking against that narrative is atomized. 0.94
00:36:40.120 We're all like we're in this kind of this network of just individuals talking to each other, which is a particular weakness and strength of those who do embody or embrace individualism is that we kind of have to do it together and let the institutions fall in a way and let the authority that they're expending on these stupid ideas just eventually completely drain them out.
00:37:01.320 But it'll take a long time for Princeton to collapse. It'll take a long time for the New York Times to, you know, to collapse. But that's where they're heading. These huge trees are rotting from the inside out. 0.60
00:37:13.340 well this is what i wanted to talk to you about which is the way forward and i'm not saying the
00:37:17.820 three of us are going to come up with a solution right here right now but it seems to me that one
00:37:21.820 of the big problems that we face as people you know with different political views and we're
00:37:26.100 not necessarily all on the same page but the one thing that we embrace as you said is the idea that
00:37:30.800 the individual is sacrosanct and should not be judged on their group characteristics but rather
00:37:36.300 on their character which used to be uh a very fashionable idea now that's racist um yeah but
00:37:42.920 but how do we deal with this because it seems to me that this idea that you know dave rubin is a
00:37:48.720 big fan of this idea you know the marketplace of ideas and if someone's got bad ideas the way you
00:37:54.040 defeat it is with good ideas well i know it doesn't doesn't seem to me that we are in a
00:37:58.800 marketplace of ideas i think we're and have probably always been operating in a marketplace
00:38:03.580 of emotions. And in the marketplace of emotions, being upset, being quote-unquote a victim, being
00:38:11.120 oppressed, et cetera, that trumps almost anything else. It certainly trumps reasonableness,
00:38:18.960 facts, it trumps rationality. So how do those of us who believe those things are more important
00:38:25.020 triumph in this sort of cultural struggle? I recommend, and this comes from my experience
00:38:31.260 as a teacher. I was a teacher too before I went to the Evergreen State College. I was actually a
00:38:35.700 preschool teacher. So I don't really know if it was my 12 years teaching preschool or my four years
00:38:40.900 at the Evergreen State College that gave me the tools to analyze this behavior. But we really
00:38:46.600 have to play the long game. All of this emotion that's bright, that's vindictive, that's vengeful,
00:38:57.820 that's victimizing and that's victim centric that's narcissistic it doesn't have a long shelf
00:39:04.520 life it once it expends everything all the resources around itself there's nothing left
00:39:10.480 for it and that works on a moral level too it works on a artistic and aesthetic level too
00:39:16.540 so i do think that rationality should be and reason should be promoted i don't think that
00:39:22.800 they're going to be enough what we need is better art what we need is better storytelling what we
00:39:27.540 need is to engage people's curiosity rather than their victimhood to engage sorry let me just
00:39:33.920 interrupt you there uh just very briefly you talk about this idea of uh this will burn out uh you
00:39:40.180 know the the emotion explodes and then but but one of the things we're seeing as we've talked about
00:39:45.760 is that that initial explosion of emotion by the kids generation that francis asked you about right
00:39:52.280 you said you're not concerned about them and you're right i think to be concerned about the
00:39:57.260 people who respond to that the adults in the room who then change institutions from the inside out
00:40:03.200 yes and and so what you're left with that initial emotional explosion changes an institution and
00:40:08.260 then we have something like the bbc in this country which a lot of us used to respect and and i still
00:40:14.700 hold on to the idea of a bit of the bbc being potentially a neutral arbiter that can be used
00:40:20.700 to bring the country back together but but it's been infiltrated by people with this mindset
00:40:25.920 the institution has been changed from the inside out and they now and i know this because i talk
00:40:31.200 to people at the bbc i get invited onto their programs etc and and some of their people will
00:40:35.680 tell me in private you know i can't say what i think in this place right so if the institutions
00:40:41.440 get changed by that initial explosion of the emotion i'm not sure your analysis is correct 0.97
00:40:46.300 because if that if the structures change then as i say we're fucked yeah well okay 0.88
00:40:53.480 the the the spike of how it's going to burn out with the raw emotion is going to be much quicker 0.81
00:41:01.340 than how it's going to burn out with the implementation of you know systemic racial
00:41:06.460 bias training and all this stuff i'm not saying that's going to happen overnight with regards to
00:41:12.140 the shutting down of actual creative interesting critical thought but that's why we have to rely
00:41:20.200 on the marketplace you know just the capitalist marketplace with regards to media people will get
00:41:27.100 really tired of ingesting the crap ton of intersectional uh proper media that's now being
00:41:34.800 it's going to be put in place and now because of this black lives matter themed revolution it's
00:41:41.240 going we're going to have a whole bunch of media that's riding through this social justice lens
00:41:45.980 And that has already been tested in smaller markets like with comic books or with video games and stuff.
00:41:53.500 And it just – it doesn't satisfy.
00:41:55.340 It's not really a satisfying story.
00:41:57.360 And only so many people can be a victim, right?
00:41:59.880 Only so many people can actually embody that victimhood in a manner that they gain all the attention.
00:42:06.460 Much more people want to hear the hero story.
00:42:09.340 Much more people want to hear the off-color joke.
00:42:12.420 And so we're going to go through a period, it's going to be several years of suppression
00:42:18.880 of voices and of content.
00:42:22.340 Thankfully, we have the internet, but we don't know if it's going to have to be refigured
00:42:27.520 to allow these ideas to perpetuate.
00:42:29.680 But people's interest will go towards other things.
00:42:33.760 Now, in a work environment, if you're working at a job, you can't afford to leave the job,
00:42:38.920 you're going to need to actually study these ideas and come up with good arguments against them
00:42:44.540 and figure out ways to allow yourself to speak or make connections with people who you don't
00:42:51.820 think agree with you. But actually, if you study people's behavior, more people don't want to go
00:42:57.000 down this than do. It's going to take a lot of work. I'm not saying it's easy. And that we can't
00:43:02.060 just, you're right, we can't just like let it blow through us. We actually have to actively
00:43:05.600 interact with it but the feedback mechanism will be that eventually it's just not going to be
00:43:11.160 satisfying on an aesthetic level or productive on a fiscal level and a lot of companies are going to
00:43:16.540 say why are we spending billions of dollars on this bias training that's making my employees
00:43:21.540 not like each other anymore let's get rid of that go back to work but benjamin you say all this and
00:43:26.840 i'm sitting here and i'm agreeing with you isn't it pretty terrifying that you're going to be going
00:43:32.040 to work and you're not going to be able to say what you think. And then all of a sudden, you
00:43:35.520 know, you think, well, if I say this, if I disagree with it, I don't know the concept of white
00:43:39.800 fragility, I'm going to lose my job. I mean, that's a, that's a terrible way to live. Isn't
00:43:44.860 it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not saying that we're in a good spot. We're not in a good
00:43:49.840 spot, but going forward, I think we do have to reify what the central values that we hold dear.
00:43:56.720 And if we have to hold those close to the chest, that is an opportunity for us to really examine why the ideas that we believed in and then that now are out of fashion are very important.
00:44:09.600 So we really have to get down to basics, go beyond just free speech, get into, you know, what is individualism, what is property, what is freedom of association, go back into the roots.
00:44:19.880 It's a wake-up call to our civilization.
00:44:22.980 If these ideas turn out to work, if anti-racism turns out to work, and if robbing from the supposed privileged and giving to the so-called depressed actually creates a better society, then maybe it was just our white discomfort all along.
00:44:38.100 But if not, then we have to get back and really use this as an opportunity to get back into what are we not doing right with regards to the young people that are growing up and with regards to what we allow our institutions of media and education and so on to actually promulgate.
00:44:55.920 By the way, Constantine, if this system is shown to work, we're going to turn up, we're going to rename our podcast White Discomfort.
00:45:03.660 Oh, mate, White and Olive Discomfort. I'm going with Olive.
00:45:06.780 that's no mate you're white if i'm going down you're going down mate two weeks ago you were 1.00
00:45:11.560 saying i'm not white you make up your fucking mind i am the victim i am oppressed get on your knees 1.00
00:45:17.100 there we go uh so um but one thing that i wanted to ask you was what do you think is going to be 0.99
00:45:25.980 the effect of this type of thinking on our cultural institutions we're already seeing it a little bit
00:45:31.480 we've already seen the bbc plunge i think it was a hundred million into into diversity i can't
00:45:37.000 even remember the language they use i've got so turned off by it but what do you think is going
00:45:40.880 to be the impact on our cultural institutions with this type of thinking uh having studied 0.99
00:45:46.580 the psychology of it what it does and i might be proven wrong this is just a shit all i have is a 0.97
00:45:52.400 crap crap load of anecdote i'm not a scientist i haven't done a data analysis but i just i 0.95
00:45:58.860 witness it from a narrative standpoint, from a human standpoint, that what it does 0.99
00:46:02.940 is that it suppresses meritocracy. It suppresses meritocracy. It suppresses
00:46:09.760 the proof is in the pudding. It suppresses judging somebody by their output. It rather
00:46:14.760 uplifts judging people by how they can be victimhood. So what you're going to see in
00:46:20.460 your work environment is that there will be unstable personalities who see this as their
00:46:26.440 opportunity and those unstable narcissistic sociopathic personalities were actually kept
00:46:31.980 in check more or less not perfectly but kept in check by the stress on productivity so if you give
00:46:39.000 a narcissist the goal of being good because they're being good for everybody else let's say 0.99
00:46:44.500 like if you put a ceo let's say you have this sociopathic ceo who doesn't get to give a shit 0.99
00:46:51.040 about humanity but if you reward him by tying his behavior to rewarding other people then you 0.99
00:46:57.900 basically kind of harnessed that very selfish energy that has no morality this this behavior
00:47:05.600 however within this system of morality that's being implemented doesn't produce anything anymore
00:47:13.260 other than destruction. So I don't, I'm trying to be optimistic, but at the same time realistic
00:47:21.700 with the fact that institution after institution will go through some variation of the Evergreen
00:47:27.340 State College, where weak leadership will cede its authority to bad actors over and over and
00:47:33.080 over again. And the proof will be in the destruction of the productivity or the educational
00:47:39.120 merit or the whatever product your institution is concerned with creating will be diminished
00:47:46.140 by this ideology. That's what it's going to do. So basically, just to convert that into kind of
00:47:52.600 ordinary examples, it would be, for example, the BBC will already have a massive campaign to
00:47:59.200 defund it to stop the taxpayer funding an organization that increasingly caters to a
00:48:04.780 very small slice of the population. It's going to be things like that. It's going to be people
00:48:09.080 not watching mainstream media, but watching trigonometry or watching Benjamin Boyce or
00:48:13.860 whatever, because they feel that that's where they're getting good information from.
00:48:17.920 It's going to be, you know, universities.
00:48:20.160 The one thing I was going to ask you, and I think it's an issue that bothers a lot of
00:48:23.620 our viewers and it bothers me and it bothers Francis as people who, you know, who are
00:48:28.240 considering bringing children into the world is how do you protect your children in this
00:48:33.600 environment from being indoctrinated?
00:48:36.200 Because the school system is riddled with this stuff.
00:48:39.080 Yeah, that is a, actually, I'm very concerned about that.
00:48:42.760 That's a very big concern.
00:48:45.220 And the only way to protect your child from this, which has captured many, many educational
00:48:51.760 institutions, is to kind of get to work.
00:48:56.040 I think that a lot of people were asleep at the will.
00:48:58.060 I think life was so good for, let's just say, Gen X, that we didn't show up to council 1.00
00:49:03.860 meetings.
00:49:04.500 We didn't show up to these board meetings.
00:49:06.160 We didn't show up to the PTA.
00:49:07.400 We didn't show up.
00:49:08.240 you know we allowed the activists to take over in a certain way so we have to start showing up
00:49:13.740 we have to take the reins upon ourselves to tutor our children and critical thinking uh to to to
00:49:20.160 expose our children to rich ideas because the education system which we were allowing to run
00:49:25.560 on its own was taken over by these other things so we have to do the work ourselves in a way
00:49:30.220 so the responsibility is on us if you don't agree with this stuff you have to start your own thing
00:49:35.620 You really have to be able to say, if I don't believe in this ideology, will I sacrifice my job to live in a better world?
00:49:45.800 Like that's what you're going to – in certain cases, that's what you're going to have to do.
00:49:48.500 That's what certain people have done.
00:49:50.420 I was really lucky because I didn't have anything to begin with, right?
00:49:53.300 But Brett Weinstein, in a way, like he made good but he was an example of somebody who sacrificed his career and there's plenty of other examples of this for the truth.
00:50:03.440 and you know there's people at the evergreen state college that i talk to now who who spoke up and
00:50:09.440 who couldn't deny their conscience a lot of people did deny their conscience and now they're paying
00:50:14.320 the price and i think that i think that it's an opportunity any great tragedy is an opportunity
00:50:19.500 to really prove your character right if we do think that content of character is what matters
00:50:25.380 then god damn it prove it then if that's what you really then show that you have character
00:50:30.300 and which we involve sacrifice he's talking to you francis 0.96
00:50:34.220 yeah mate i've sacrificed enough certainly anyway trust me but doesn't it also mean like so i'm on
00:50:43.420 the left uh i always have been former teacher of blah blah blah all the rest of it and the way that
00:50:48.900 this ideology has riddled the left and leftist thought which let's be fair has some excellent
00:50:54.400 ideas doesn't it mean that we're just never going to get elected ever again um that's that's a really
00:51:02.980 good question we'll see what happens in america it's crazy it's absolutely insane we do not have
00:51:09.180 a trustworthy left party and i guess you could always say that they were always just like
00:51:14.920 neoliberal or they weren't trustworthy in all these different ways but there's no set of ideas
00:51:19.360 on the left that have not been infiltrated by this incredibly virulent and destructive ideology.
00:51:26.860 And so what do you do? You're basically alt-right adjacent or far-left prostrated
00:51:33.960 at this point in time. Those are your two options. So there has to be this politically
00:51:39.080 homeless, this centrist kind of weird encampment of people just pitching tents outside of the
00:51:46.660 main structures that are either, you know, something that you can't agree with, if it's
00:51:50.400 too conservative with you, or something that you can't agree with, because it's too crazy for you.
00:51:56.180 So. Well, we're fucked, aren't we? 1.00
00:51:59.880 Well, good positive. 0.99
00:52:00.880 I don't know, unless you like camping.
00:52:05.760 Yeah, we're all going to learn to camp very soon. But Benjamin, listen, it's been a pleasure
00:52:10.580 talking to you. And I think you make some excellent points as someone who's seen how
00:52:14.740 this has played out on a smaller scale um and how it might play out going forward i think i think
00:52:21.180 you're right it's about people taking responsibility and that's what you know francis and i have done
00:52:25.860 that and as you say it's you know it's my favorite one of my favorite movie quotes is from fight club
00:52:30.600 and says uh it's only when you've lost everything that you're free to do anything and i think you
00:52:35.700 know us doing this show you doing what you do and there are lots of other people who who try in as
00:52:41.360 best they can to step up. And, uh, we, we know a lot of people who watch the show who, who are
00:52:46.260 stepping up in small ways and in big ways, uh, to try and, uh, make, I mean, you know, there's
00:52:52.560 the Maya and the narcissist coming out to change the world for the better. Um, so thanks for coming 0.99
00:52:57.440 on. Uh, we've got one more question for you. And it's the same question. We always end the show
00:53:01.620 with, which is what is the one thing that we're not talking about as a society that we really
00:53:06.400 think that uh i think i don't think we're focusing on our arches our art support enough anymore like
00:53:13.620 when we're going to get footwear i think one thing that we've just completely lost is is that foot
00:53:19.240 we're going to affect my back in a positive or negative manner i don't think we're really
00:53:22.960 thinking about the entire human being as you know a network of bones you know we're so involved in
00:53:28.920 our emotions that we're losing track slowly of taking care of our body that was a facetious
00:53:33.460 answer. I never know what not to talk about because it's not about what we're not talking
00:53:38.740 about. It's about what we're not allowed to talk about. Like one thing that I think is that I don't
00:53:43.880 think it's healthy to always be questioning everything, to be a skeptic about everything,
00:53:47.940 but whenever you're in a situation where you're not allowed to question, that's when the questions
00:53:53.820 need to be asked the most. So whenever you sense that there's something that we can't be talking
00:53:59.460 about you know so that that that's kind of my answer is that that's kind of my job is to kind
00:54:05.180 of smell that that where the conversation is falling apart and go towards that so i never
00:54:11.480 know what that's going to be because there's so much of it out there right now and as a man who
00:54:16.500 suffers from flat feet thank you for raising that it's important somebody had to do it and you did
00:54:22.960 so thank you you stepped up when it counted man but listen benjamin if people want to follow your
00:54:27.820 work you've got a youtube channel obviously uh where else should people go to to check out what
00:54:32.780 you do i'm on twitter at benjamin a boyce i do a lot of pithy sentences i think sentences are just
00:54:40.620 like that is what i want to be known for all these videos you know that's just a vehicle for
00:54:44.740 sentences so that's my main output that in the youtube channel i highly recommend if you haven't
00:54:49.680 heard what happened at the evergreen state college story i've made a 20 part documentary on the
00:54:55.200 events showing everything that happened from found footage and documents that I got through
00:55:00.500 the college with very minimal editorializing in it. And that's on my YouTube channel. It's
00:55:05.700 linked right in the main page. It's very good and very scary all at once. So if you don't want to
00:55:12.100 watch Saw 17 or whatever, check out the evergreen documentary by Benjamin Boyce. Thank you for
00:55:19.780 watching guys. And we will see you very, very soon with another brilliant episode. Make sure
00:55:23.800 you go and follow
00:55:24.400 Benjamin on the
00:55:25.500 YouTube subscribe to
00:55:26.460 his channel and hit
00:55:27.820 him up on Twitter as
00:55:28.600 well thanks for having
00:55:29.860 me guys yeah thank you
00:55:31.320 very much Benjamin
00:55:31.960 absolutely don't forget
00:55:34.080 we've also got live
00:55:35.200 streams and we've also
00:55:36.360 got episodes our live
00:55:37.720 streams are Tuesday
00:55:38.740 Thursday Friday
00:55:39.800 Saturday always at 7
00:55:41.540 p.m. see you soon
00:55:42.640 guys
00:55:53.800 We'll be right back.