TRIGGERnometry - ＂Black People Don't Need Saving＂ - Adam B. Coleman

00:00:00.680 The narrative went from this was an incident that is unfortunate and maybe we need to look

00:00:06.960 at police reform to the narrative of black men are constantly in fear, we're always in

00:00:12.640 danger and that racism is the number one issue affecting us.

00:00:16.320 How did we get to this point in just a matter of days?

00:00:19.840 To me it felt like a panic attack.

00:00:21.760 To me it just removed our individuality and we just became this collective that was just

00:00:26.400 weak and feeble.

00:00:27.800 For men we are stronger, we are deadlier. 0.94

00:00:31.880 I mean it's the truth to say that we can inflict pain much easier and we are dangerous to society

00:00:38.760 if we're not under control and the job of the father is to control the energy of the boy.

00:00:45.320 I think gangs are a result of lost boys and then they grow up to become lost men and I

00:00:52.280 think one of the things that a lot of people don't understand, especially women don't understand

00:00:55.800 about men is that we're purpose driven.

00:00:58.440 So I think purpose is extremely important for kids and I think if you're talking about like

00:01:03.880 gang violence in particular that's one of those areas that you see what happens when you don't

00:01:08.840 give young men purpose.

00:01:10.840 If I label someone as a white supremacist then what?

00:01:14.120 Then what?

00:01:14.760 You know they did it to themselves.

00:01:16.600 They cried wolf too many times.

00:01:18.600 So I'm one of those people who actually doesn't want to fight the language. 0.94

00:01:22.360 I'm going to use the language, I'm just going to redefine it.

00:01:24.680 If the leftists get to redefine words, if they get to redefine racism, 0.88

00:01:28.840 redefine blackness and whiteness and all these different things then screw it. 0.87

00:01:32.520 I'm going to redefine it too and use it to my advantage just like them.

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00:03:00.680 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry on location whilst our brand new studio is being built.

00:03:08.600 I'm Francis Foster.

00:03:09.800 I'm Constantine Kishin.

00:03:11.000 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:03:16.280 Our brilliant guest today is a writer and the author of Black Victim to Black Victor.

00:03:21.400 Adam Coleman, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:03:22.920 Thank you for having me.

00:03:23.880 Listen, thank you for having us in your Airbnb here in London.

00:03:27.800 We were supposed to have you in the studio but life got in the way.

00:03:30.920 But we're really excited to have you on the show.

00:03:33.640 Tell everybody before we get into it, who are you?

00:03:36.040 How are you?

00:03:36.520 Where you are?

00:03:37.000 What has been the journey through life that leads you to be sitting here talking to us?

00:03:40.440 Wow, so many journeys.

00:03:41.480 I would say that I generally say I'm a typical American.

00:03:46.120 I was working a regular IT job but kind of got involved in the culture war.

00:03:52.840 Just watching you guys, watching other podcasts and just learning.

00:03:56.520 And there became a moment where I felt like my voice, someone who's actually saying things that I wanted to be heard, wasn't actually saying it.

00:04:06.920 Especially after the death of George Floyd.

00:04:08.760 The narrative went from this was an incident that is unfortunate and maybe we need to look at police reform to the narrative of Black men are constantly in fear, we're always in danger, and that racism is the number one issue affecting us.

00:04:24.680 And I thought that narrative was insulting. I thought that narrative was incomplete and not true whatsoever.

00:04:34.280 The number one issue facing Black Americans is family. We have a dysfunctional family issue as far as separation goes. 1.00

00:04:42.600 And I wanted the opportunity to talk about it and write about it, but write about it in a way that is of substance.

00:04:50.040 You know, there are people who I generally agree with, maybe even conservatives who talk about family values and the importance of fathers and men, but I always felt like it was incomplete.

00:04:59.960 They said it like it was something that people are just supposed to know, rather than explaining so people fully understand the ramifications of not having both parents within the home.

00:05:10.040 So, I wrote my book to actually tell my personal story, and also examine and analyze a whole bunch of different areas of what we would consider Black culture.

00:05:21.720 But I'm very open about my childhood and how it affected me, and I think it sticks out for people who read it because most of the time people don't talk about this thing.

00:05:30.360 They pretend that everything was fine. They pretend that everything was fine, you know, they made it through, I'm alive, and everything is fine after that.

00:05:37.520 But I wanted to paint a realistic picture that my life was tumultuous because my father wasn't there.

00:05:44.480 We were homeless multiple times.

00:05:47.100 I remember a woman who came to my mother and said, you can stay with me and my trailer, I have one room.

00:05:55.400 And so myself, my mom, and my sister stayed in one room for at least a month or so before my mom got back on her feet.

00:06:02.400 But I remember bouncing in and out of hotels, you know, just to have some place to sleep, meanwhile going to school, and my mom's working.

00:06:11.360 So, you know, having one income earner within the home can put you in that risk of going in and out of homelessness and fighting for survival.

00:06:22.200 But I just couldn't stand the narrative of single parenthood as being this wonderful achievement.

00:06:29.940 And no matter what you do, everything is fine, and we're incapable of saying that, hey, maybe this isn't the best idea for your children.

00:06:37.680 And we've put so much on female empowerment that we ignore the kids. 1.00

00:06:41.600 And one of the interesting things about your story as well is you became a dad at quite a young age yourself.

00:06:47.320 And so here you are, 21 years old.

00:06:49.900 You haven't had a dad or, as you talk about, even a male role model your entire life.

00:06:54.760 And then suddenly you're supposed to teach this new creature how to be a man.

00:07:00.300 Right.

00:07:00.580 How do you do that?

00:07:02.840 Well, the first thing I told myself is that I wasn't going to be my father.

00:07:06.400 I remember specifically holding my son and thinking that.

00:07:09.540 So it's a pretty low bar because my father wasn't there.

00:07:13.120 So you just got to be there.

00:07:14.440 I just got to be there.

00:07:15.220 That was basically the starting point.

00:07:17.340 So, you know, I always just tried to be the father that I thought I wanted for myself.

00:07:22.940 So I have a lot of communication with my son.

00:07:26.100 You know, I talk about spanking. 1.00

00:07:29.260 But from an aspect of why was I spanking?

00:07:32.400 You know, do I really need to spank my son? 1.00

00:07:34.520 And he was pretty young when I decided, like, I don't want to do this anymore.

00:07:38.500 And I realized I was repeating behavior that I had learned from when I was a kid.

00:07:42.560 Because my mom, you know, she's managing this boy.

00:07:45.580 And all she knows is physicality to keep him in line when she didn't actually have to do that.

00:07:50.600 And my son and I are very much similar.

00:07:53.000 We're both sensitive.

00:07:54.420 We're both very, I don't want to say, like, intellectual, but, like, introspective.

00:08:00.440 And so you don't need to hit me.

00:08:02.260 You can explain to me what I did wrong, and I won't do it again.

00:08:06.480 So basically, since I said I'm not going to spank him, I just stopped spanking him.

00:08:10.740 And he's 17 years old now.

00:08:12.160 And we have a great relationship because we talk and we communicate.

00:08:15.800 So, you know, it's those different things that I just tried to figure out what works and what feels natural.

00:08:22.060 And much of what I talk about is what feels natural for men, what feels natural for me as a man.

00:08:28.620 And once I started going towards what felt natural, everything kind of just fell into place.

00:08:33.240 But as far as becoming a man for myself, I've said I've probably been a man for about five years, and I'm 38.

00:08:41.120 And it's because it's this long, arduous journey because I'm starting from ground zero as an adult.

00:08:47.980 And figuring out that maybe I need to constantly improve because I'm failing over and over and over.

00:08:57.140 I'm failing in relationships with women. 1.00

00:08:59.340 I feel like I'm not being the best father.

00:09:02.480 Even though someone might say, you're doing a great job, I don't feel like I'm, you know, doing the best job.

00:09:07.020 So it's just constantly re-examining my life and wanting to constantly improve to become the person I am today.

00:09:15.680 And what does it mean to you, Adam, to be a man?

00:09:18.540 Ha.

00:09:20.840 I would say confidence.

00:09:23.080 Confidence is number one.

00:09:25.460 Assured, being like a very sure of yourself.

00:09:30.440 Protecting people, especially people you care about, people you love, protect your children.

00:09:35.980 That's why I talk so much about the need to, you know, fight against mutilating children. 0.64

00:09:41.720 Because our job as men is to stick up for our kids and not allow perverts to come in and tell you to, you know, chop up your kids because they feel off.

00:09:53.200 You know, we need to protect our families.

00:09:55.220 We need to protect our children and our society.

00:09:58.200 But as far as being a man, I mean, those are just a few things that are highly important.

00:10:03.740 And we were talking about single mothers.

00:10:06.400 And as a teacher, I saw the effect that not having a father in the home had on young boys.

00:10:12.800 Why is it, do you think, that we just keep perpetuating this myth?

00:10:17.400 We're unwilling to criticize women.

00:10:20.440 I mean, I think it's as simple as that.

00:10:23.100 When you have one sex that is infallible, then, like, nothing ever changes. 1.00

00:10:29.100 You can only have change when you can recognize mistakes.

00:10:32.640 But if they don't make mistakes, we can't change.

00:10:34.760 And everything that they do is perfect, so we can criticize it.

00:10:37.260 You know what, it's weird because I agree with you that, yes, there is a taboo about making criticisms of female behavior.

00:10:43.940 But I also think that single parenthood is quite often, as it was in your case, well, look, I don't know, maybe it wasn't, but quite often the fault of the man, actually.

00:10:52.920 And it's the man that wasn't there and the man that, now, look, you might say the woman, you know, behaved in certain ways that made sure he wasn't there.

00:11:00.700 But often it isn't.

00:11:01.800 Often it's just a man who can get away with having kids with multiple women.

00:11:05.220 So is it really a case of it's like the women's fault that they're single mothers or is that, was it, maybe that's not even what you were saying.

00:11:12.720 So that's actually a great point to bring up.

00:11:15.200 And I'll use, I don't think I'm talking too much out of turn, but I'll use my mom as an example.

00:11:21.080 Not too long ago, I asked my mom, did you ever want to get married?

00:11:25.220 She said, no, I always wanted two kids.

00:11:27.300 And so for me, that tells me that she wasn't marriage minded.

00:11:32.600 She just wanted children.

00:11:34.840 And some people might say, that's fine.

00:11:37.300 That's her prerogative.

00:11:38.560 But is that the best scenario to raise children in?

00:11:41.640 And we know statistic after statistic, that's not the best way to raise children.

00:11:46.700 But that is what she wanted.

00:11:48.660 And my father was married, just not to her.

00:11:51.300 My father was always married.

00:11:52.680 And so she picked a man who was unavailable to have two children with.

00:11:56.340 And so, you know, this is not to be harsh with my mother.

00:12:00.480 I love my mother.

00:12:01.580 But the reality is that she didn't make the best decision.

00:12:04.860 And my father wasn't there because he was never going to be there.

00:12:07.800 He was a married man who had his own life.

00:12:09.880 And I believe he had children as well.

00:12:12.320 He was never going to be involved in my life other than paying child support through the state.

00:12:16.520 So as much as I hear what you're saying, and we're very quick to say deadbeat dads,

00:12:21.320 there's a lot of questions we had about women who specifically do not want to get married.

00:12:25.600 And that's becoming more and more prevalent.

00:12:27.820 They're finding ways to freeze their eggs. 0.99

00:12:30.320 They're finding ways to find some sort of way that they can have children, 0.98

00:12:34.760 but they're not asking to have families.

00:12:37.000 And that's different.

00:12:37.960 I agree with you on that.

00:12:39.060 That's a very good point.

00:12:40.180 Yeah.

00:12:40.460 And because we don't talk about enough the effect that not having a dad has on kids.

00:12:47.340 So what do you think the effect is of fatherlessness in homes?

00:12:51.900 Oh, man.

00:12:53.060 Boundaries.

00:12:54.600 You know, there's the boundary aspect as far as understanding.

00:13:00.460 I'll use boys as an example since I was a boy.

00:13:04.400 You know, boys are, they're like high energy.

00:13:08.780 They're like a high energy mass.

00:13:10.740 And you need to teach them how to control their energy.

00:13:14.100 Otherwise, they can hurt people, right?

00:13:16.220 There's a reason why rough and tumble play is so important for boys, especially,

00:13:20.260 is because you teach them boundaries when they go too far.

00:13:23.140 You also teach them how to control their emotions.

00:13:25.580 Someone who's ready to assault you just like that is someone who doesn't know the boundaries,

00:13:30.660 who doesn't know how to control their emotions.

00:13:32.080 And so that is why you see violent offenders typically come from single-parent homes.

00:13:37.580 They usually lack a male authority figure to teach them how to control that energy. 0.98

00:13:43.020 It's different for girls.

00:13:44.940 But for men, we are stronger.

00:13:47.580 We are deadlier.

00:13:49.400 I mean, it's the truth to say that.

00:13:51.340 We can inflict pain much easier.

00:13:53.540 And we are dangerous to society if we're not under control.

00:13:57.840 And the job of the father is to control the energy of the boy.

00:14:02.080 So for me, you know, thankfully, I think more genetically, I'm just a calm kid.

00:14:10.280 I was always a good, calm kid.

00:14:12.920 But the other side of that is that I was very vulnerable.

00:14:17.300 And when I was about five, we moved out of Detroit where I was born.

00:14:20.780 And we moved to suburbs.

00:14:22.380 And we moved to actually four states before I was 18.

00:14:26.520 But I always ask, what if we stayed in Detroit?

00:14:28.740 You know, I know the state of Detroit's public school system, right?

00:14:34.660 And Detroit hasn't changed much since the 80s when I was born.

00:14:37.960 So what if I had stayed there?

00:14:40.220 What would have my life been?

00:14:41.560 What would I have been surrounded by?

00:14:44.280 Would I have been a statistic?

00:14:45.680 Would I have been dragged into these different things?

00:14:47.380 Because I know me and I was vulnerable.

00:14:49.940 People could have led me into different directions.

00:14:51.860 And I didn't have a male authority figure to say, you need to leave these people alone.

00:14:57.580 And some might say, well, your mother can tell you that.

00:14:59.940 But it's different coming from a man.

00:15:02.240 Yeah.

00:15:02.440 And when we talk about, in particular, black boys and their vulnerability, and also as 1.00

00:15:10.480 well, the fact that they're more likely to be murdered, they're more likely to be murdered 0.99

00:15:14.640 by other black boys. 0.95

00:15:15.680 Do you attribute that to fatherlessness and a lot of black boys growing up in a home without 1.00

00:15:21.600 a father?

00:15:22.820 I think gangs are a result of lost boys.

00:15:26.480 And then they grow up to become lost men.

00:15:28.700 Gangs are some sort of group association with male activity.

00:15:34.140 It's just flawed male activity.

00:15:36.660 And I think one of the things that a lot of people don't understand, especially women, 1.00

00:15:39.840 don't understand about men, is that we're purpose-driven, right?

00:15:43.440 If someone said, your job is to take this hammer and nail things, you've been given purpose.

00:15:50.420 It doesn't matter that it's a simple activity.

00:15:52.480 You've been given purpose.

00:15:53.520 And so now you feel useful in society.

00:15:55.720 But what if no one gives you purpose?

00:15:58.700 Right?

00:15:58.920 You're kind of empty.

00:15:59.980 And so you're just searching for something.

00:16:02.340 That's why gangs are attractive to lost kids who were never given purpose, never shown how

00:16:07.160 to excel in particular areas. 0.60

00:16:09.720 They feel useless.

00:16:10.900 They say, what's the point?

00:16:12.360 That's why you see kids who just kind of act out in class because they're like, what's

00:16:15.620 the point of paying attention?

00:16:17.380 I have no purpose in this particular environment.

00:16:20.260 I might as well go out there and do whatever.

00:16:22.100 So I think purpose is extremely important for kids.

00:16:26.280 And I think if you're talking about like gang violence in particular, that's one of those

00:16:30.960 areas that you see what happens when you don't give young men purpose.

00:16:34.520 And do you think the problem is as well as role models?

00:16:37.500 They don't see, you know, they look at the role models and who are the role models that

00:16:40.940 they're going to be aspiring to?

00:16:42.080 It's somebody maybe in sports or entertainment.

00:16:44.420 But the reality is very few people make it in that arena.

00:16:47.820 Yeah.

00:16:48.400 Yeah, absolutely.

00:16:48.980 And honestly, for young men, your role model should be your father, right?

00:16:53.360 Should be a healthy father figure.

00:16:55.040 And that's what, that's how I see like everything through the prism of family.

00:16:58.840 I see the very start for men is your father.

00:17:02.820 It's supposed to be your father.

00:17:04.120 And he's supposed to be who you're mimicking.

00:17:06.540 And he's, you're supposed to reflect what he puts out and become something productive

00:17:12.360 within the society.

00:17:13.680 But if that's not there, then like you said, where do you, where do you get it from?

00:17:17.180 And a lot of people get it from local, if you're in a negative area, someone who's

00:17:23.360 local to you and whether it's negative or positive, you're just searching for some

00:17:26.660 sort of purpose, something to mimic.

00:17:28.900 And if you see that something works or appears to work, then you're just going to go in that

00:17:32.700 direction.

00:17:33.180 But I think as far as role models go, it needs to be fathers.

00:17:37.660 And I think we've honed in too much on the role model aspect of just saying any man will

00:17:44.000 do, right?

00:17:45.320 And actually, that's part of the problem with a lot of women who do end up in single 1.00

00:17:49.200 parent situations.

00:17:50.360 They say, well, I need to get a stepfather because any man will do, right? 0.95

00:17:55.540 And it's not the same.

00:17:56.880 And they don't understand that on top of opening up all different types of vulnerabilities to

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00:18:33.280 This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

00:18:37.080 Hey, Konstantin, do you want better mental health?

00:18:40.940 I'm from Russia.

00:18:42.060 We don't have mental health.

00:18:43.420 So how do you deal with mental health?

00:18:45.460 You drink vodka, then go out and wrestle bear.

00:18:48.360 If you live, you feel better.

00:18:50.260 If you die, you're not real man.

00:18:52.140 What about the bear's feelings?

00:18:54.280 It's a Russian bear.

00:18:55.460 It has no feelings.

00:18:56.880 People don't always realize that physical symptoms like headaches, teeth grinding, and

00:19:01.700 even digestive issues can be indicators of stress.

00:19:05.240 And let's not forget about doom scrolling.

00:19:07.520 Not sleeping enough.

00:19:08.860 Sleeping too much.

00:19:10.220 Undereating and overeating.

00:19:12.420 Sleeping too much.

00:19:13.660 Undereating.

00:19:14.680 This is Western disease. 0.98

00:19:16.320 Therapy has really helped me in my life to concentrate and focus.

00:19:20.220 It's really important to have someone impartial who you can talk to about the tricky issues

00:19:26.080 that you're struggling to deal with.

00:19:28.240 Therapy has played a really important role in helping me to deal with my ADHD and become

00:19:33.580 better in all areas of my life.

00:19:36.400 Why is he telling them how weak he is?

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00:20:09.000 It's an interesting set of interesting points that you make.

00:20:12.000 I think as a new father myself, that's one of the things that I'm thinking about all the

00:20:17.080 time is like, oh wow, like someone looking to me now, I've got to be, you were talking

00:20:21.800 about this earlier, you've got to be the best version of you because you are now a role

00:20:26.100 model to other people.

00:20:26.940 So you've got to get your own emotions under control.

00:20:29.700 You've got to, you know, you've got to be conscious about how you are in the world.

00:20:33.080 Right.

00:20:34.600 But moving on slightly onto the sort of broader political stuff that you touched on earlier,

00:20:40.180 we interviewed a woman called Mary Eberstadt a while ago who wrote a book called Primal

00:20:45.040 Screams, how the sexual revolution created identity politics.

00:20:49.280 And her central argument is essentially this, that if you have generation upon generation

00:20:54.760 generation of children growing up in broken homes, essentially, you know, if you use that

00:20:59.940 term, of course they're looking for some kind of group to belong to.

00:21:04.200 Of course they want to go, oh, I'm black, therefore other black people, you know, all of that.

00:21:08.600 Do you, do you see that as a contributing factor to this identity politics stuff that we now

00:21:13.940 see in society?

00:21:14.700 Yeah, you know, I noticed that the people who, for example, I notice, not sorry, I notice

00:21:23.220 people who grow up in two parent homes, happy two parent homes, and how they're not so much

00:21:28.980 in love with, you know, the pigmentation of their skin, right?

00:21:33.520 They're in love with being, whether they're a Christian, being a mother, a father.

00:21:38.340 They have so many other things identity-wise that are more important than the color of

00:21:44.600 their skin.

00:21:45.360 And I see the opposite.

00:21:46.880 I see people who grow up in dysfunction who are looking for some sort of group association,

00:21:51.620 group identity.

00:21:53.220 I even went through a phase of that where I'm searching for who am I, you know, and I got

00:22:00.380 into a little bit of the, I would identify as like a neo-Marxist kind of stuff, listening

00:22:06.140 to those speakers.

00:22:08.000 Who were you listening to?

00:22:09.620 Like, for example, like Tim Wise, for example.

00:22:13.040 And I was like, oh, this guy's kind of interesting.

00:22:15.920 I don't know him.

00:22:16.540 What's his message?

00:22:17.920 Oh, you know, white supremacy.

00:22:20.820 I mean, yeah.

00:22:22.100 And he actually happens to be white, but him among other... 0.52

00:22:26.460 A lot of them do.

00:22:27.660 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:28.440 That's true.

00:22:30.200 But, you know, just listen to other speakers and stuff like that.

00:22:33.540 I remember hearing the new age term for racism, power post-privilege.

00:22:38.200 Right, right.

00:22:38.800 You know, and I remember hearing all these different things.

00:22:41.720 And then I started believing it a little bit.

00:22:44.560 And then I looked around me.

00:22:45.860 I was like, but that doesn't match my reality.

00:22:48.700 And that's why I kind of moved away from it.

00:22:51.740 Wait, Adam, sorry.

00:22:53.200 I know I keep in trouble, but I'm just really curious about this part of it.

00:22:55.780 But how does someone who is listening to these kind of narratives look around and see that

00:23:02.580 it's not...

00:23:03.000 What did you see that wasn't congruent with that worldview?

00:23:06.080 Well, if I'm perfectly blunt, my son is mixed.

00:23:10.320 My son's half white.

00:23:12.040 I've been in relationships with women who are white. 1.00

00:23:14.620 My wife currently is black. 1.00

00:23:16.360 You know, I've grown up in neighborhoods where I'm the minority.

00:23:20.120 I've grown up in neighborhoods where I'm of mixed other kids.

00:23:24.060 So my reality has been like people are people.

00:23:27.600 And so this idea that there's like this legacy of white people who are just passing on generation

00:23:33.180 and generation to hate black people, I'm not seeing it to the level that these people 0.81

00:23:37.640 are talking about.

00:23:39.580 And I think one of the things that I didn't like is that they're preaching animosity.

00:23:43.920 Like they want me to feel resentful of, not of this person's issue, but of their grandparents

00:23:51.380 and theoretically their grandparents, because maybe it wasn't their grandparents.

00:23:55.720 For all I know, their grandparents were in Italy.

00:23:58.100 And now I'm supposed to hate you because of someone from...

00:24:01.820 You know, to me, it just didn't make any sense to live my life in such a resentful, angry

00:24:07.240 kind of way.

00:24:07.900 And I'm troubled by people who are preaching that.

00:24:12.180 They're preaching, don't forgive, right?

00:24:15.640 Don't forgive these people who had absolutely nothing to do with what you're doing, who

00:24:20.840 are laying all types of excuses for someone's personal failures.

00:24:24.960 It reminds me of a conversation I had with a family member of mine who, you know, he doesn't

00:24:31.960 preach this per se, but he would consider himself pro-black.

00:24:35.340 And I said, you know, all right, fine.

00:24:38.840 But let's just say this.

00:24:40.360 Does it help you to have multiple baby mamas, right? 1.00

00:24:44.000 If you think the white man is oppressing you, how does it help you to have two baby mamas

00:24:48.320 and three kids?

00:24:49.800 Does it at all, right?

00:24:51.840 How does it help you to have a separation of a family?

00:24:54.800 It doesn't.

00:24:55.740 You have one income earner in the house. 0.95

00:24:57.640 How does that help you when you could have two, right?

00:25:00.600 If white people are setting up a system where we're going to make less, why do you have 0.73

00:25:06.840 less people in the household who can make less?

00:25:09.860 You know, so I'm just being very logical about the situation of the world around me.

00:25:14.400 Even if you want to be pro-black and believe in all this stuff, let's go back to family. 1.00

00:25:19.460 Build up the family and you'll change all different types of outcomes.

00:25:23.020 I think that's a great message.

00:25:24.620 So talking about thinking logically and not thinking logically, summer of 2020, you brought

00:25:31.060 up George Floyd.

00:25:32.160 Yeah.

00:25:33.000 This terrible thing happens and it was a terrible thing that happened.

00:25:36.540 And the world goes absolutely apeshit.

00:25:41.460 What was your, you said you had some thoughts about that that weren't being reflected.

00:25:45.320 What was your take on that?

00:25:48.180 My take on it was, well, for me, I'm one of those people who likes to sit back and watch

00:25:53.120 the reaction of people.

00:25:54.240 So not even, it wasn't necessarily George Floyd, but it was the reaction to George Floyd

00:25:59.100 that I was reacting to.

00:26:00.680 And it was like watching people, let's say they were black, people that I knew who had

00:26:04.880 happy, successful lives, all of a sudden became victims.

00:26:09.420 And it was like they were talking about a world that they were not living in whatsoever.

00:26:14.580 And I'm just like, how did we get to this point in just a matter of days where everybody,

00:26:20.760 to me, it felt like a panic attack.

00:26:22.340 It felt like America was having a panic attack.

00:26:25.520 And they were, as someone who's suffered from panic attacks, it just looking like a rational

00:26:30.440 view of the world.

00:26:32.080 And I'm like, but look around you, everything's actually fine. 0.96

00:26:35.420 Like, this is unfortunate, but this black person has nothing to do with you, right? 1.00

00:26:41.480 And so look at your world. 0.84

00:26:43.520 Let them fight that fight with George Floyd, but your world is not George Floyd's world.

00:26:47.960 And I want people to realize that.

00:26:50.800 But it just felt like the media was all in on using basically black plight as some motivating

00:26:58.460 factor that you must go out into the streets.

00:27:00.560 And apparently it's okay to burn things down.

00:27:02.580 It's mostly peaceful anyways.

00:27:03.540 So I just had a problem with, and I'm going to use the group identity, them labeling black 1.00

00:27:12.780 men as being in constant fear.

00:27:14.980 And actually, it reminded me of an article I wrote for the New York Post talking about

00:27:20.240 actually Jonathan Capehart, who wrote this op-ed after Buffalo's mass shooting, which

00:27:26.100 they say, you know, there's white supremacists who targeted a black neighborhood and shot the 0.67

00:27:30.660 people. 0.96

00:27:30.940 And that's highly unfortunate.

00:27:33.600 But he made this vision of black people constantly in fear, and he's hinting at leaving the country

00:27:42.300 himself.

00:27:43.200 This millionaire who lives in D.C., he's not leaving the country, right?

00:27:46.520 But at the end, he makes himself the hero and says, I'm not leaving.

00:27:50.520 I'm going to stay here, right?

00:27:51.980 And I thought to myself, white supremacy is the constant picturing of black people as being 0.97

00:27:59.460 fearful, scared, incapable, and the only way they can succeed is by white people's good 0.99

00:28:07.820 grace or the government coming in and doing something for them. 0.96

00:28:11.600 To me, that's white supremacy.

00:28:13.720 And that's what I was watching. 0.97

00:28:15.400 I'm watching white supremacy happening in front of me of them saying, look at these poor black 0.99

00:28:20.760 people. 0.98

00:28:21.140 We need to do something for them.

00:28:23.140 You have white intellectuals who, you know, the Robin DeAngelos and all these different

00:28:27.600 people who are coming out and say, look at the black play.

00:28:29.580 We have to do something for these people, right?

00:28:32.200 And I'm saying we could do for ourselves.

00:28:34.840 Like, and just because I am black doesn't mean I share the same experience as this other

00:28:40.020 person.

00:28:40.260 Just like you're white and you don't share the same experience as every other white person. 0.74

00:28:44.480 Like, to me, it just removed our individuality and we just became this collective that was just

00:28:49.560 weak and feeble and everybody must do for us and everybody must say our narrative and speak

00:28:54.400 for us. 0.98

00:28:55.020 And then what made it worse is that we have the black bourgeoisie that goes out there and 1.00

00:28:59.540 repeats these narratives because they get social benefits from them. 0.54

00:29:02.400 They get the affirmative action out of this narrative, right? 0.64

00:29:06.600 Because they always benefit from it.

00:29:08.200 They get to go to the Ivy League schools and have their kids go to the Ivy League schools

00:29:11.760 because they fit that quota, right? 0.61

00:29:13.780 It doesn't benefit any other black person. 0.98

00:29:15.740 Just like it doesn't benefit any other black person when a black head coach gets hired and 0.99

00:29:20.500 they become a millionaire all of a sudden. 0.60

00:29:22.260 How does that benefit me?

00:29:23.280 But I'm supposed to clap and cheer of, you know, the benevolence of the NFL for hiring

00:29:27.860 another black person.

00:29:29.200 So there's a class element to it as well that I constantly bring up.

00:29:34.540 But that story with Jonathan Capehart pissed me off so much that I wanted to say that he's

00:29:41.340 the black face of white supremacy, not Larry Elder, right? 0.87

00:29:45.320 And if we're going to have black face of white supremacy, then this is the guy who's doing 0.97

00:29:49.120 it.

00:29:49.300 And he's one of many who does it.

00:29:51.080 Adam, doesn't it worry you that we just bandy the term white supremacy about just willy-nilly?

00:29:57.060 And you think this is actually something very, very serious.

00:30:00.460 There are white supremacists. 0.77

00:30:01.940 There are white supremacists here. 0.95

00:30:03.060 There's white supremacists in America.

00:30:04.840 And all we do when we use this term over and over again is we just devalue it.

00:30:09.940 Yeah.

00:30:10.400 And I think we should devalue it because it's not that much of value anyways.

00:30:17.180 If I label someone as a white supremacist, then what?

00:30:19.900 Then what?

00:30:21.440 You know, they did it to themselves.

00:30:23.300 They cried wolf too many times.

00:30:25.280 So I'm one of those people who actually doesn't want to fight the language. 0.94

00:30:29.020 I'm going to use the language.

00:30:29.980 I'm just going to redefine it.

00:30:31.260 If the leftists get to redefine words, if they get to redefine racism, redefine blackness 0.97

00:30:36.680 and whiteness and all these different things, then screw it.

00:30:39.100 I'm going to redefine it too and use it to my advantage just like them.

00:30:43.780 Because I think we shouldn't fight language as hard as we're trying to because it makes 0.61

00:30:50.160 it seem like we're hiding something, right?

00:30:53.640 Like, I'm not a white supremacist.

00:30:55.660 You know, like, it was like, oh, a white supremacist would say that.

00:30:59.020 And so we should actually use the words to our advantage because you can, right?

00:31:04.600 And that's the magic of the English language.

00:31:06.400 How do you use the words to your advantage?

00:31:08.520 I use it to my advantage by redefining them, just like how they use it to their advantage

00:31:11.800 to redefine it.

00:31:12.460 The reason they're able to get away with racist narratives is because they redefine

00:31:16.120 what racism is.

00:31:17.600 And so it's our job now to redefine the redefinition of racism back to its appropriate point.

00:31:24.460 It's our turn to use their lingo and use it against them to prove our point as to what 0.73

00:31:30.880 we're actually trying to say.

00:31:32.100 So give me an example.

00:31:33.520 Well, the white supremacy aspect.

00:31:35.200 Right.

00:31:35.580 To me, I'm not going to fight white supremacy.

00:31:38.440 I'm not going to fight the usage of the word and we use it too much.

00:31:41.420 I'm going to leave it in the lexicon and redefine it.

00:31:45.120 Because now then they're on the back foot of saying, well, you know, we'll just use

00:31:50.360 another word.

00:31:51.700 You know, it's like, all right, fine.

00:31:53.080 Bring up another word and I'll fight it if you try to redefine it.

00:31:56.300 So I want us to battle the definitions of words and keep redefining it.

00:32:01.340 Every time they redefine it, we do it again.

00:32:03.700 Rather than trying to say this word shouldn't be used as much because it minimizes.

00:32:08.540 No, it's already here.

00:32:09.960 People use these words.

00:32:11.920 I remember years ago, no one ever said white supremacy.

00:32:16.520 Now they do.

00:32:17.800 So we can't get people to not say it anymore.

00:32:20.180 The only thing we can do is redefine it to its appropriate usage.

00:32:24.980 Do you not think as well that it's very dangerous when they use these words?

00:32:30.000 Because like I said, there are genuine white supremacists and they'll just say, well, everybody's

00:32:36.900 a white supremacist now.

00:32:38.200 Therefore, what does that mean?

00:32:39.380 So they can kind of hide under the cover of this word being misused or misappropriated.

00:32:44.740 Well, here's the thing.

00:32:47.360 I think we genuinely have white supremacists, but we don't define it the way that it should

00:32:51.780 be defined. 0.69

00:32:52.720 I think the majority of social progressives are white supremacists.

00:32:56.840 So that's why I actually think we should keep the word in the lexicon because these 0.70

00:33:00.100 people are. 0.96

00:33:00.780 You know, a lot of them are the black elite who cape for them. 0.98

00:33:06.440 They're the white elite who are socially progressive, who are in all of our institutions. 0.86

00:33:11.820 They're part of government.

00:33:13.040 They're part of the media.

00:33:14.140 They have influence in our society.

00:33:15.880 They're in Hollywood. 0.94

00:33:17.120 They're actually white supremacists in my eyes. 0.92

00:33:19.700 Hold on. 0.96

00:33:20.360 White supremacy in its actual definition is the belief that the white people are genetically

00:33:25.380 inherently superior to everybody else and should have power in society because of that.

00:33:29.620 So how are social progressives white supremacists under that definition?

00:33:33.580 Well, I would say they're white supremacists by action, right?

00:33:37.980 So if you say the only way that Adam can succeed is if I do something for him, that places you

00:33:45.180 above me.

00:33:45.980 Correct.

00:33:46.440 It makes you stronger than me because I can't do for myself.

00:33:50.260 And that is the environment that we currently live in as far as in the media and as far as

00:33:55.560 how even the government operates now.

00:33:57.620 The poor black people, they need our help. 0.96

00:34:00.220 No, I totally get it. 0.97

00:34:01.240 And I think one of the things you talk about in Black Victim to Black Victor is the idea

00:34:06.840 of having a victim requires a savior.

00:34:10.140 Absolutely.

00:34:11.140 And so this ideology is particularly appealing to certain people who want to be victims

00:34:15.920 and want government help or other people to look after them or whatever.

00:34:19.620 But even more so, it's really appealing to people who want to help the poor downtrodden

00:34:26.120 black and brown people.

00:34:27.420 Exactly.

00:34:28.540 That is, that's actually going to be the topic of my next book is the saviorism, saviorism

00:34:34.800 aspect of it.

00:34:36.620 That is something that is motivating a lot of our society, regardless of race.

00:34:41.580 People who want to save the world, people who want to save the unfortunate transgender 1.00

00:34:47.700 people who are being maligned.

00:34:49.460 Everybody just feels like they must do to save other people.

00:34:53.280 But they're given the illusion that it's, they're only doing it to help other people,

00:34:57.980 but they're doing it for themselves, right?

00:35:00.200 No one's asking them to do it.

00:35:01.620 They're taking it upon themselves.

00:35:03.200 They're forcing other people to become activists and take these initiatives.

00:35:08.160 They're, they're doing it to promote themselves.

00:35:11.300 It's not a selfless act.

00:35:12.600 It's very selfish of them to do so.

00:35:14.480 And it's very narcissistic.

00:35:17.560 I think that's the best way of kind of putting it.

00:35:19.380 It's very narcissistic vision that I must do for other people because they can't do for

00:35:23.780 themselves.

00:35:24.840 And they'll use every, every angle, every statistic, every possibility to make sure that

00:35:29.940 people understand that I must do these things for society because I must save society.

00:35:36.360 But don't you think as well, Adam, there might be a more kind of basic explanation to it,

00:35:41.160 which is it's much easier to save someone else or than to actually deal with your own 0.98

00:35:46.880 problems, you know, because dealing with your own problems, let's be fair, it's fucking 0.98

00:35:50.920 hard. 0.99

00:35:51.480 Yeah.

00:35:51.960 Whereas going and, you know, fighting for the world or whatever else, you know, you don't

00:35:56.420 have to deal with the fact that maybe you're not good at X, Y, and Z.

00:36:00.120 Right.

00:36:00.660 And even fighting for the world is an empty gesture.

00:36:03.540 Like, who is actually fighting for what?

00:36:06.100 Is you holding a picket sign actually changing much of anything?

00:36:10.200 I mean, it's very low bar activity to change something.

00:36:15.460 Who knows?

00:36:16.240 Is sitting in the middle of the road actually going to stop climate change in your vision?

00:36:20.140 But you just feel like you must do something.

00:36:22.940 Right.

00:36:23.240 And it puts you at the center focus.

00:36:25.480 But it's even more damning when they put themselves at the center focus.

00:36:28.580 And it hurts other people in the process.

00:36:32.860 Right.

00:36:33.560 They're willing to do it despite it hurting other people.

00:36:36.860 They're willing to do it despite how it makes other people look, how it inconveniences you

00:36:42.120 from going to work.

00:36:43.520 They don't care.

00:36:44.460 They want to sit in the road because me saving society is more important than you going to

00:36:49.380 your job and to support your family.

00:36:51.180 So it's a much more, I would say, malevolent kind of activity that people don't really recognize.

00:36:59.740 Or at least they haven't been able to define it the way I'm trying to define it.

00:37:04.740 But I think it's much so saviorism that is just plaguing, at least America and probably here,

00:37:10.960 it's plaguing our society.

00:37:12.660 And the most powerful people have it the worst.

00:37:15.800 Yeah. 0.99

00:37:15.960 Well, we import all your crap, so no doubt, whichever way America goes, we'll get it. 0.98

00:37:21.420 But it sounds to me like in some ways what I'm hearing out of our conversation is actually 0.95

00:37:25.620 the answer to this saviorist activism isn't counter-activism, actually.

00:37:32.780 It's perhaps promoting some very old-fashioned things like the ones we've been talking about

00:37:39.540 from the beginning, which is family, you know, agency, the idea that your job is to better

00:37:48.020 your own life and to improve yourself as opposed to looking out into the world and go, oh, this

00:37:53.360 is what needs to change and these people need my help with this.

00:37:56.020 Actually, look inside, you know, are you a parent?

00:37:59.240 Are you a good one?

00:38:00.240 What are you doing with your life?

00:38:01.760 Are you trying to get better, et cetera?

00:38:03.500 Is that how you feel this needs to change?

00:38:06.620 Or do you think that there's more structural stuff that needs to happen as well?

00:38:11.220 I think if you're going to change anything in society, you have to start within your own

00:38:15.220 home.

00:38:16.480 That's why I always go back to family.

00:38:18.900 If family disappears and the vision of family disappears, then our society disappears.

00:38:25.280 I think that is the number one thing that we need to focus on.

00:38:29.480 And I think it means something when we're watching things that look incredibly different

00:38:33.480 than what our grandparents lived through.

00:38:35.900 And then we're looking at aspects of the society where it's like, this is terrible.

00:38:39.640 Like, it just doesn't work.

00:38:40.980 It doesn't functionally work.

00:38:42.500 And when I tell people that the United States is number one in single parenthood, and I look

00:38:47.180 at all these different areas, and I know that what happens behaviorally for kids who grow

00:38:51.160 up in single parent homes, what they're more likely to do.

00:38:54.620 You know, people like to say the United States incarcerates the most people.

00:38:57.820 Well, guess where these people come from?

00:38:59.760 Like, you think they're just happy one day and woke up and just started breaking the law,

00:39:05.020 started hurting people just because?

00:39:06.440 Like, no.

00:39:07.200 A lot of times, it is a cycle that leads down to this point where they get caught up into

00:39:11.760 something.

00:39:12.840 They feel like they have no other choice or they have no control over their impulses because

00:39:17.360 no one taught them how to control their impulses.

00:39:19.360 Because, you know, you have all these different things, these different areas that come down

00:39:23.320 to what happens at the family affects the rest of society.

00:39:27.320 And then for the people who fail to properly raise their children, to manage their family,

00:39:34.240 the rest of us pay for it, right?

00:39:36.180 You now have to pay more security for your home because of a degenerate who grew up in a

00:39:41.700 dysfunctional home now wants to take your stuff, right?

00:39:45.040 You now have to be worried about your safety as you're walking down the street at night

00:39:49.080 because someone who's coming from a messed up home who's now addicted to cover for that

00:39:54.700 pain is now trying to take something from you or willing to harm you to get what they

00:39:59.480 want, right?

00:40:00.620 The rest of society pays for the failures of families.

00:40:03.500 And I don't think people fully understand that.

00:40:05.480 Hey, Francis, if you were a member of the public, would you like the opportunity to ask incredible

00:40:12.180 guests like Bill Burr, Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, Adam Carolla, Brett Weinstein, John

00:40:18.420 Barnes, Douglas Murray, Nigel Farage and Lionel Shriver your own questions?

00:40:23.580 You bet I would.

00:40:24.760 And what do you think the best way to do that would be?

00:40:28.300 Probably stalking, mate.

00:40:29.820 You'd have to corner them in the supermarket, probably round near like the sort of frozen

00:40:34.560 food aisles and then just bark questions at them before they can escape.

00:40:39.240 Not the American ones, as they have guns. 0.88

00:40:41.960 And you'd have to be extra careful with the females, as that's how I got in trouble last 1.00

00:40:46.420 time.

00:40:47.420 Can you really imagine you're going to get Douglas Murray near the frozen food aisle?

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00:42:22.380 See you there, guys.

00:42:25.040 It's a tough message to hear, but it's a necessary one.

00:42:28.200 Do you think we're ever going to have this conversation in the mainstream in an open and

00:42:31.980 honest fashion?

00:42:32.740 Or do you think we're always going to just try and brush it under the carpet simply because

00:42:36.860 it's so difficult to hear?

00:42:38.460 I think there's always a boiling point.

00:42:39.940 I think the fact that I'm sitting here talking to you about this is a good sign.

00:42:44.920 And I see other people who are starting to talk about the importance of men, importance

00:42:50.160 of fathers, how it's affecting them, how it's affecting their kids.

00:42:53.780 I think feminism has brought a raw deal to families and especially to women. 1.00

00:43:00.040 I think feminism hates women, to be honest with you. 1.00

00:43:02.740 But I think that aspect of just going full force into feminism and to say women are infallible 1.00

00:43:10.720 and just not caring about how this viewpoint affects children, how it affects the fathers,

00:43:18.420 how it affects anything else between this bond between the mother and the father and children

00:43:24.100 and just going towards high individualism, high self-preservation, like no sacrifice.

00:43:33.940 You know, it's that kind of, it's kind of a sick world that we're promoting, that we're

00:43:40.180 saying this is perfectly fine because this is what this person wants and everything is

00:43:43.800 fine because of it.

00:43:44.540 It's like, no, we had rules for a reason.

00:43:47.280 We had boundaries for a reason.

00:43:48.740 We had standards for a reason.

00:43:50.860 I remember years ago when I was a kid, someone who would have a child out of wedlock was sometimes

00:43:58.140 looked sideways.

00:43:59.760 Now it's like no one cares.

00:44:03.500 And that is part of the problem.

00:44:06.240 And we're not willing to criticize people who are involved in those particular situations.

00:44:11.520 I actually agree with almost everything you said, but I'm just, I want to ask you what

00:44:16.280 you mean when you say feminism hates women. 1.00

00:44:19.800 Feminism hates women. 1.00

00:44:20.680 Because we have feminists who watch our show. 1.00

00:44:22.900 Yeah.

00:44:24.160 And I think the difficulty with a statement like that for me is there's about 73 different

00:44:29.140 ways of being feminist. 0.90

00:44:31.260 Yeah.

00:44:31.800 And if at the basic core of it, you're talking about men and women should be treated fairly

00:44:36.880 and equally.

00:44:37.760 Yeah.

00:44:38.020 I've got no issue with that.

00:44:39.140 I don't think you have any issue with that either.

00:44:41.340 So what kind of feminism are you talking about and what do you mean exactly? 1.00

00:44:45.040 I would say, because everybody has different waves, I would say modern feminism. 1.00

00:44:49.520 So modern feminism hates women because it tells them to be everything that isn't natural 1.00

00:44:54.560 to being a woman. 0.98

00:44:55.840 Right.

00:44:56.200 It says in order for you to succeed in the world, you must be like men. 0.85

00:44:59.600 Yeah.

00:44:59.760 Right.

00:44:59.900 So you must be aggressive like men, but they always come out to be too aggressive because

00:45:04.420 men are usually, successful men are measured in their aggressiveness.

00:45:09.860 It tells them to get rid of marriage.

00:45:14.180 Right.

00:45:14.400 It's all about your career.

00:45:15.700 Well, actually, men have careers in marriage.

00:45:18.100 Right.

00:45:18.360 So it sends them all these mixed messages.

00:45:20.700 And I think a lot of women end up hurt because of it and they're unhappy because of it. 0.99

00:45:24.600 You know, I consume all different types of content and I sometimes watch content where women are 1.00

00:45:30.760 in their mid to the late 30s and 40s who are regretful because they did want children, but

00:45:36.120 they were told not to have children or they did want to get married, but they were told

00:45:39.980 that marriage is old fashioned and you don't need to get married. 0.58

00:45:43.660 You know, they're being told to do things that isn't natural to them.

00:45:48.160 And they're now regretful when, you know, they start to leave that bubble of feminism. 1.00

00:45:54.880 And it actually, feminism really promotes things that benefit men, especially very successful men 0.95

00:46:01.780 or men who are able to swindle women, so to speak, or who are very attracted to women. 0.96

00:46:07.360 They get sex from it. 0.95

00:46:08.860 You know, we're no longer allowed to criticize female sexuality whatsoever. 1.00

00:46:14.140 And if you want to have sex, have sex. 0.99

00:46:16.260 But now it's like, it doesn't even matter if it's reckless sex. 0.94

00:46:19.160 It doesn't even matter if it's sex work.

00:46:21.020 It doesn't, none of it matters anymore.

00:46:22.440 And so who benefits from it the most?

00:46:25.140 Men. 0.99

00:46:25.560 Men who can get a lot of sex, they benefit from it. 0.77

00:46:27.980 So I'm asking myself, like, how is feminism actually helping women today?

00:46:32.600 It's not really.

00:46:33.920 They're unhappier.

00:46:35.380 They're taking more pharmaceutical drugs, at least in the United States, they're taking

00:46:38.520 a lot of pharmaceutical drugs to suppress this uneasiness.

00:46:43.300 I don't see how it benefits women whatsoever.

00:46:45.920 It's an interesting point that you make because one of our best recent interviews is with a woman

00:46:50.060 called Louise Perry, who's written a book called The Case Against the Sexual Revolution.

00:46:54.340 And I think she's going to be, over time, develop into almost like a Petersonian type

00:46:59.180 figure, because in the same way that Jordan Peterson had a message for men that they have

00:47:04.080 not heard, but really needed to hear, which is, your job as a man is to get better and improve

00:47:11.080 your life.

00:47:11.460 Stop whining.

00:47:12.260 Get on with it.

00:47:13.220 The only way you're going to get anything is by being different, is by being better,

00:47:18.120 is by working harder, is by being true to who you are, et cetera.

00:47:22.080 And that's why I think Jordan Peterson became such a huge figure, because he came in at the

00:47:26.680 right moment with the right message.

00:47:28.440 And I think Louise, who is talking about actually just, she puts it in a more delicate way than

00:47:33.640 you do.

00:47:34.860 But her message is similar, which is, we've been sold a lie.

00:47:38.440 Yeah.

00:47:38.780 Women, and I totally agree. 1.00

00:47:40.660 And when I, you know, as a new father, I see the transformation of my wife becoming a

00:47:45.820 mum and how fulfilled she is doing that.

00:47:48.800 I think a lot of women haven't been reminded, at least, that that option is still there. 1.00

00:47:54.000 You could be a mum first and do other things second. 0.99

00:47:57.560 And quite often, that will be the most fulfilling thing that you do do.

00:48:00.780 And that's okay.

00:48:01.720 And society hasn't been good at communicating that to women, I think.

00:48:05.200 So I think you're right.

00:48:06.500 And I think you're going to start to see that change, as you say, as the generation, our

00:48:11.120 generation of women, who are getting to the point where they're not quite childbearing 1.00

00:48:15.420 age anymore.

00:48:16.360 Right.

00:48:17.200 Disappointed in some of the choices they've made.

00:48:19.280 That is going to feed down into the culture.

00:48:21.400 And I wouldn't be surprised if, like, people who are in their 20s now start having kids

00:48:26.220 younger, actually, despite all the difficulties, the housing crisis and all of that.

00:48:30.320 But speaking of the younger generation, I wanted to ask you if you think this will naturally

00:48:37.500 turn, or do you think, you know, it's not going to be a kind of action-reaction type

00:48:44.520 of situation?

00:48:45.820 I'm optimistic.

00:48:48.300 But I don't think the change is going to necessarily happen within this generation.

00:48:52.740 I think it's going to be the next generation.

00:48:55.740 I think sometimes what happens is you have to see the mistakes of the previous generation.

00:49:00.320 to realize, like, maybe we shouldn't do that, you know?

00:49:03.880 Progress is good when it's good progress.

00:49:09.080 You know?

00:49:09.420 Yeah.

00:49:09.900 To progress just for progress's sake, like, it doesn't make any sense.

00:49:13.660 If it works, then let it work.

00:49:17.160 And I think the nuclear family works.

00:49:21.640 But we're being told that it doesn't.

00:49:23.480 And we have to ask the question, why are we being told this?

00:49:26.160 And who is perpetuating this message?

00:49:28.780 And why are we even listening to these people?

00:49:30.940 Who controls this narrative?

00:49:32.760 And so that's why I think it's important that we disconnect, right?

00:49:36.740 We disconnect from social media every so often.

00:49:39.260 We disconnect from the television, movies, because they are putting out certain messages.

00:49:43.680 They are showing that men are weak, right?

00:49:46.240 And women are just super strong. 1.00

00:49:48.380 And they have no story arc as a superhero.

00:49:51.080 You know, they're showing these particular messages.

00:49:53.780 But when you disconnect from it, and then you go and look and just ask yourself, like, who's happy?

00:49:58.940 Like, who is genuinely happy?

00:50:00.500 And I look at people who are in long-term relationships, they look happy, right?

00:50:06.300 There's no...

00:50:07.180 Some of them.

00:50:08.920 That is true.

00:50:10.060 I'm just joking.

00:50:10.940 I know exactly the point you're making.

00:50:12.360 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:50:12.740 I would say the happiest people are the people that I've seen that who are in long-term successful relationships.

00:50:17.340 The most depressed, the most depressed, the unhappiest, tend to be people who struggle with relationships.

00:50:26.780 And they struggle sometimes because of their own doing.

00:50:30.000 A lot of times because of their own doing.

00:50:32.220 And they're moving away from things because they feel that it is beneath them.

00:50:39.180 Like, for example, it's perfectly fine to cook for your man. 0.50

00:50:42.860 Like, that doesn't make you beneath him.

00:50:45.320 That's actually something that is of a gift.

00:50:46.940 And it's also fine that if he protects you, like, that's not beneath him.

00:50:51.000 That is something that he's doing for you as well.

00:50:53.580 Like, we have exchanges within relationships, gives and takes, sacrifices.

00:50:58.180 You know, these are naughty words these days.

00:51:00.800 But I think it's important that we sacrifice for each other.

00:51:04.400 That's how you have a successful family.

00:51:06.680 And how are you going to be a selfish parent, right?

00:51:09.940 How does that work?

00:51:11.080 You have to sacrifice for your children.

00:51:12.720 You have to be willing to say, you know what?

00:51:13.920 I'm not going to do this because they're more important.

00:51:17.960 And I think that is the magic of becoming a parent.

00:51:20.280 That's what made me a better man growing up was saying, like, I got to stop messing around.

00:51:25.140 And I got to take maybe some risks.

00:51:27.040 I got to do whatever I have to do to make sure that my son is good.

00:51:31.620 And so you asked before, like, growing up, becoming a man, a lot of it had to do with my son.

00:51:36.820 And having him early forced me to say, this is bigger than me.

00:51:41.760 And now today, now that he's 17, for me, speaking up and saying something is the most important thing for me to do.

00:51:49.820 Because I don't want him to say, how come my dad didn't say something?

00:51:54.040 How come my dad was sitting back and acting like a coward?

00:51:56.320 Meanwhile, he's telling me these things. 0.96

00:51:57.900 Oh, this is crazy.

00:51:58.840 And I didn't do anything about it.

00:52:01.640 And it doesn't seem like it takes a lot of effort to really just, like, say something.

00:52:08.520 You know, for me to sit down and write a book, and I had never written anything before.

00:52:13.200 And to go into it and express myself and put it out there.

00:52:18.900 Part of the reason I wrote that book is because of my son.

00:52:21.800 I wanted to write a book years prior, but I didn't know what to write about.

00:52:25.620 But the reason I wanted to write a book is because I was thinking about my legacy and what I wanted to leave for my son.

00:52:30.560 So my son is my legacy, but I wanted to leave something that he can always remember and be proud of his father about.

00:52:35.920 So that is part of the reason why I wrote my book.

00:52:38.700 And he read it.

00:52:39.540 And he understands his father much more after reading this book.

00:52:44.480 And I'm just trying to show people, like, do something.

00:52:48.380 You know, I'm an IT guy by trade.

00:52:51.260 And if I can get up one day and just sit down and write and express myself and put myself out there for criticism and be critical of the world around me and have some success because of it, like, why can't other people do it?

00:53:04.680 But, you know, you have to become an example for your kids.

00:53:07.660 If you sit back and you cower and you cry and complain and you do nothing about it, you're teaching that to your kids as well.

00:53:14.440 So I tell my son to question everything, including me, and do something about it.

00:53:19.480 If you don't like how something is, go and do something about it.

00:53:23.320 But don't sit there and complain, right?

00:53:26.160 And if I'm going to tell him that, I have to do it as well.

00:53:29.020 Right.

00:53:29.340 Yeah.

00:53:29.760 Right.

00:53:29.940 It's interesting that you mentioned that because having my son had the exact same effect on me, like, right away because I went, okay, look, I oppose identity politics because I just think it's racist.

00:53:42.920 Right.

00:53:43.200 Right.

00:53:43.400 And I've always done it and I've always said it and I've taken the risks and we've done the show together talking about it or whatever. 0.99

00:53:49.440 But the moment he was born, I was like, wait, there are idiots out there who are going to judge him this pure thing that is just pure potentiality. 0.98

00:53:59.380 He hasn't said a word. 1.00

00:54:00.780 He hasn't moved.

00:54:01.440 He hasn't done anything.

00:54:02.280 All he does is eat and poo, right?

00:54:04.100 But they've already judged him.

00:54:06.460 Right.

00:54:07.100 That's wrong.

00:54:08.260 Right.

00:54:08.460 I'm not prepared to live in a world in which that's happening and I haven't said anything.

00:54:12.700 Right.

00:54:13.320 And actually, same thing for me.

00:54:15.500 My son is mixed race.

00:54:17.420 And, you know, I remember years ago I asked him, like, do you see yourself as black or white?

00:54:22.380 And he says, I just see myself as Daniel.

00:54:24.880 Right.

00:54:25.360 And I'm like, that's a fair answer.

00:54:27.380 And it's unfair to put kids who are in mixed race situations to pick one side and, you know, I think it's just an unfair world.

00:54:36.180 Like you said, the identity politics creates rather than seeing us as humans with superficial differences.

00:54:44.020 Because that's all it really is.

00:54:45.440 My son looks like me, but just a little bit lighter skinned.

00:54:48.400 But he is a good person.

00:54:50.700 He is a good kid.

00:54:51.740 And he's going to grow up to be someone who is beneficial for society.

00:54:55.080 And that's all that really matters.

00:54:57.160 Yeah.

00:54:57.480 You know, group identity.

00:55:00.120 Humans are group related.

00:55:02.020 You can't defeat that.

00:55:03.780 Right.

00:55:03.960 And sometimes it's good.

00:55:05.220 Nationalism sometimes is good.

00:55:06.960 You know, we're always going to find some sort of group orientation.

00:55:09.580 That's how we survive.

00:55:10.620 But it's when it runs amok.

00:55:12.420 It's when it becomes the only thing that we care about and the only thing that we focus on.

00:55:16.900 And saying that we are completely different because you have more pigmentation or less pigmentation.

00:55:23.600 That's when we start going down a realm that feels dirty, in my opinion.

00:55:27.600 And it doesn't even matter who the perpetrators are.

00:55:29.280 It doesn't matter if they're black or white, Hispanic.

00:55:31.260 It doesn't matter what they are.

00:55:32.280 But there is something wrong about wholly prejudging people based off of characteristics.

00:55:39.640 And I think we've seen what happened in human history when we went down that path wholeheartedly.

00:55:43.900 And also as well, the thing to bear in mind, Adam, is in a few years, this is not going to matter because we're all going to be transracial anyway.

00:55:49.680 We're going to be able to identify as whatever we want.

00:55:52.220 Yes.

00:55:53.020 I mean...

00:55:53.460 Following in the footsteps of the great man, Justin Trudeau.

00:55:56.180 Yeah.

00:55:56.400 Oh, yes.

00:55:58.620 The great Justin Trudeau.

00:56:01.060 Yeah, I think...

00:56:03.100 I would say this.

00:56:07.360 The reason I...

00:56:08.640 Part of the reason I'm speaking out is because I feel like the average American doesn't have a voice.

00:56:14.040 And I feel like I am much of the average American.

00:56:17.780 I'm much of the average American economically, life experience.

00:56:21.960 And, you know, obviously I went through some things that maybe other people didn't go through.

00:56:25.040 But I always felt like the average person.

00:56:28.160 And when I talk to other people, they're average people too.

00:56:30.660 And we have, like, all these narratives that are being created by a certain group of people about us.

00:56:36.900 But I'm like, none of these people are like this.

00:56:39.460 Like, I've been...

00:56:40.580 Like I said, I've lived in four states before I was 18.

00:56:43.080 And I lived in Tennessee as an adult.

00:56:45.580 But I've seen all different types of areas and different people.

00:56:49.140 People are people.

00:56:50.800 You know, this idea that people are just waking up waiting to hate somebody.

00:56:55.160 You know, overall, that's our mainstream viewpoint as Americans.

00:56:59.140 Americans, that's not the America that I live in. 1.00

00:57:01.800 And we're painting this picture.

00:57:03.840 And the American people don't have a voice within the media, within society that is being projected like, hey, we're fine.

00:57:14.180 We're good. 0.90

00:57:14.780 Like, I really don't care that Adam is black. 1.00

00:57:17.080 Like, he's black. 0.94

00:57:17.880 That's fine.

00:57:18.480 But I care that he's a good person and all these different things.

00:57:22.160 You know, we were talking about Tennessee.

00:57:23.880 One of my favorite things about living in Tennessee was that people just come up and talk to you.

00:57:29.600 You know, and being from New Jersey, I'm not used to that.

00:57:31.860 But I would be standing in line and some lady, she was an older white lady, she'd just come and talk to me and start telling me about her family. 1.00

00:57:39.840 She didn't care that I was black. 0.99

00:57:41.380 She just, she saw me as a person there and she was just communicating with me.

00:57:45.400 And that's been my experience for a lot of different places that I've lived at.

00:57:48.960 Obviously, I've had some racial incidences, but I could count them on one hand, thankfully. 1.00

00:57:57.120 Maybe some people have a little bit more or maybe some people misinterpret things.

00:58:00.900 But overall, Americans are generally good people who just want to go to work, take care of the kids and have enough economics to do some extra things.

00:58:10.500 But this idea that, you know, we're these highly sinful people who are just waiting to do things and have these malevolent thoughts and, you know, I think that a lot of it is actually projection by the people who are delivering the message.

00:58:23.460 And one thing that I want to touch on, which your son would be able to speak about, is the mixed race experience.

00:58:31.760 Because if we start looking at everything through a racial lens, then we'll go, oh, this person is, you know, darker skinned African-American.

00:58:41.120 Therefore, they have this experience.

00:58:42.920 Therefore, you are more privileged because you were lighter.

00:58:45.400 Because, and it's just never ending, isn't it?

00:58:48.060 It just never ends.

00:58:49.340 It never ends.

00:58:50.880 And then, I don't know if you guys have heard of like the one drop rule.

00:58:54.920 Yeah.

00:58:55.520 Yeah.

00:58:55.640 Okay.

00:58:56.320 We actually kind of have that still.

00:58:58.420 So just explain to people who haven't heard of it what the one drop rule is, please, Adam.

00:59:02.080 So the one drop rule is like, it's basically, I'm probably going to butcher it a little bit, but it's basically like if you have one drop of black blood, then you're black. 0.80

00:59:09.860 So it doesn't matter anything else. 0.63

00:59:12.400 It doesn't matter if half, you know, a quarter is this, a quarter is that, a quarter is that.

00:59:15.860 Well, a good example is Barack Obama, half white, the first black president.

00:59:20.300 No one called him mixed race until after 10 years gone by.

00:59:24.360 Exactly.

00:59:25.120 And if someone meets my son, and he's pretty light skinned, but if they meet him and they find out that I'm black, then they would say, well, he's black.

00:59:32.820 Right.

00:59:33.200 Right. 0.57

00:59:33.400 Or, you know, there's, you're a quarter black, you know, it's just like everything is about the one drop rule. 1.00

00:59:39.860 And it's a, it's a weird dynamic to constantly see.

00:59:43.940 And I almost feel like it, it, it erases people, like it erases people, people's individualism to kind of see things through the prism of how much blood do you have?

00:59:56.060 What blood do you have?

00:59:57.240 Even more so.

00:59:59.220 But that's, it's a natural consequences, natural consequence of tribal group identity. 0.99

01:00:04.480 Right.

01:00:04.600 Because if some groups are better than others, or some groups are worse than others, then naturally people will want to be in a particular group or will be forced to be in that group, as opposed to just going, I'm Daniel.

01:00:15.880 Right.

01:00:16.200 It's an interesting point.

01:00:17.060 You talk about, you know, people, the people, when we interviewed Bill Burr, when we went to America, this is the point that he made, which is like, he started playing all these black clubs.

01:00:25.980 And initially, as a white guy who maybe hasn't been in that environment, you go, oh, these black people, blah, blah, blah. 0.99

01:00:31.260 And then, once you're used to it, you start to see, oh, that's my, that guy, just like my friend Steve, who's an arsehole. 1.00

01:00:37.820 You know what I mean? 0.99

01:00:39.300 Right.

01:00:39.620 And that's really the simple message is people are people.

01:00:42.660 And, look, I think we've all really enjoyed this conversation.

01:00:46.260 I think the conversation about family and parenting and masculinity and all of that is going to be a big part of not only the conversation going forward, I actually think it's a big part of the solution, too.

01:00:58.260 I think if we can do what you're talking about, which is focus on encouraging people, not going back to the 1950s, but actually going forward.

01:01:07.560 And going, what is the constructive view of the future?

01:01:10.780 Well, it's got to be, you know, I, becoming a new parent has opened my eyes to how antenatal our society is.

01:01:16.740 It's incredible.

01:01:17.820 I remember reading your book going, oh, he became a dad at 21.

01:01:21.560 Wow.

01:01:24.160 What's so weird about becoming a dad at 21?

01:01:26.740 This isn't, it's what human beings have done for millennia.

01:01:29.760 Right.

01:01:30.080 It's completely normal.

01:01:31.700 Yet, in our society, we think of that as some kind of crazy thing.

01:01:34.840 Right.

01:01:35.160 You know?

01:01:36.080 So, anyway, I just, I'm really glad we had this conversation.

01:01:39.040 I think what you're talking about is going to be a big part of the way this issue gets talked about, but also a way that some of these things get resolved going forward.

01:01:47.040 So, I really appreciate you coming on the show.

01:01:49.880 Thank you.

01:01:50.580 And, as always, we've got one more question for you.

01:01:53.080 Which is, what is the one thing we're not talking about, but we really should be?

01:01:56.580 The vulnerability of children in single-parent homes to sexual molestation.

01:02:03.340 I, I, I'll go back to this.

01:02:05.400 I tried to end on a positive there. 1.00

01:02:06.960 It's a fucking hell, mate. 1.00

01:02:08.180 Jesus Christ. 1.00

01:02:09.100 You don't know.

01:02:09.780 Maybe there's a great joke at the end of it.

01:02:11.120 All right.

01:02:11.660 Let's do it.

01:02:12.840 No, there's no reason.

01:02:14.060 I gave him all this uplifting stuff about he's doing the right thing.

01:02:18.320 Let's talk about P-Dosh. 1.00

01:02:19.580 Yeah, let's talk.

01:02:20.540 Let's do it.

01:02:21.540 All right.

01:02:21.940 But, we joke, you make a very good point.

01:02:25.040 And, my friend Holly, who used to work with Brett and Heather, Brett Weinstein and Heather Hying, she always talks about this as well.

01:02:32.520 So, go for it.

01:02:33.820 Yeah.

01:02:34.760 Basically, I don't think people understand the safety aspect when it comes to having someone who is an adult, especially a male, brought into the home of a child that is not theirs.

01:02:45.560 And, how much vulnerability that leaves, because predators look for vulnerabilities.

01:02:51.240 And, men who are looking for children to, you know, basically prey off of, they're going to look for single mothers.

01:03:00.340 That is a reality.

01:03:01.720 And, I remember having this conversation on a podcast, and there were three guys there, and I was explaining how this would all work and how this is a major vulnerability.

01:03:10.000 And, when I finished speaking, one of the guys said, you basically explained my childhood to a T.

01:03:15.140 Everything that I explained as to what happens to these kids and how vulnerable they become, he basically went through.

01:03:23.340 And, his story is the silent story that people don't feel comfortable talking about.

01:03:28.220 So, for me, there's the childhood behavioral aspect, but safety, right?

01:03:36.120 Children are safer with both of their natural parents within the home. 0.88

01:03:40.580 Obviously, they're good step parents.

01:03:42.720 They exist, right?

01:03:44.520 But, I cannot deny the statistics that exist.

01:03:46.660 It's not even close how much danger children are in when they're along with a parent who is not their biological parent, whether it be physical abuse or sexual abuse.

01:04:00.180 Yeah.

01:04:00.440 And, a lot of times, as well, this is a really tragic thing, and I saw it as a teacher.

01:04:04.380 Just kids, the moment they hit 16, stepdad doesn't want them around, out they go onto the streets.

01:04:08.900 Yeah.

01:04:09.120 And, then they become part of the homelessness problem.

01:04:11.500 Right.

01:04:11.680 And, a lot of the times, those kids are super vulnerable, and they fall through the cracks in the system, and it's heartbreaking.

01:04:16.820 Right.

01:04:16.980 Because, they haven't even started yet, and they're already minus 500, whatever it is.

01:04:22.660 It's heartbreaking.

01:04:23.560 Yeah.

01:04:23.960 Nice uplifting episode, everybody.

01:04:25.460 No, I joke because, just to ease the tension, but actually, I think you both make a really important point.

01:04:31.300 I'm so glad you brought this up.

01:04:32.840 It really needs to be talked about.

01:04:34.740 Adam, Black Victim to Black Victor is the book.

01:04:38.540 So, great to have you on the show.

01:04:40.440 Really appreciate it.

01:04:41.260 We're going to ask you a couple of questions that our local supporters have submitted that only they will get to see the answer to.

01:04:47.400 But, for the moment, thank you so much for coming on the show.

01:04:49.780 My pleasure.

01:04:50.280 And, thank you guys for watching and listening.

01:04:52.300 We will see you with another brilliant episode like this one, or Raw Show.

01:04:56.720 All of them go out at 7pm UK time.

01:04:58.400 And, for those of you who like your trigonometry on the go, it's also available as a podcast.

01:05:03.200 Take care, and see you soon, guys.

01:05:04.840 How do you start a friendly conversation to change someone's self-perceived victimhood?

01:05:12.600 Mmm.

01:05:13.200 Hmm.

01:05:13.460 Mmm.

01:05:24.360 Mmm.

01:05:25.460 Mmm.

01:05:25.600 .

TRIGGERnometry - November 17, 2022

＂Black People Don't Need Saving＂ - Adam B. Coleman

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