TRIGGERnometry - Bret Weinstein - We Can Stop a Civil War

00:00:00.000 Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:08.940 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:00:10.780 And this is a show for you. You want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:16.780 Our terrific guest today is a visiting fellow at the James Madison Program at Princeton University.

00:00:21.700 He's the man behind the Unity Project to retake the White House, which is something we're going to talk about.

00:00:26.280 And he, of course, has the distinct honor of being someone who got canceled before it was cool.

00:00:31.100 Brett Weinstein, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:33.460 Thanks for having me.

00:00:34.920 It is great to have you here.

00:00:36.100 Well, let's just for anyone who isn't familiar with the story, which is not many people, of course,

00:00:40.420 I mentioned you being chased out of Evergreen College with your wife, Heather, who we've met as well.

00:00:46.920 Just remind everybody what happened there, because it's such an important piece of what is happening now

00:00:52.040 and where you're coming at the current cultural moment from.

00:00:54.640 Well, I have to tell you, this is my least favorite question in the universe, because what happened cannot be summarized simply. But fate has delivered me some good fortune, which is that now Evergreen is happening everywhere. And so people are more familiar with the story because it's now happening to them.

00:01:12.900 So for those who don't know it, I would recommend, A, that they check out Mike Naina's documentary on the Evergreen story.

00:01:19.720 They could check out Benjamin Boyce's 20-part series on the catastrophe.

00:01:24.780 And they could check out Heather and my article in the Washington Examiner.

00:01:28.700 But the short version is Evergreen was three years early.

00:01:34.280 There was a new president who impaneled a group to fix a largely imaginary racial problem

00:01:43.240 at Evergreen, and they created a proposal that would have been fatal to the institution.

00:01:48.900 As that proposal was unveiled, I opposed it, which made me public enemy number one, and

00:01:54.800 at some point, a protest was formulated and sent to my classroom where 50 students I had

00:02:01.960 never met demanded my resignation or my firing. Protests erupted across the campus. They quickly

00:02:09.800 turned into riots. The president, in his infinite wisdom, pulled the police out and told them not

00:02:16.540 to enforce the law, leaving the campus to literal anarchy. And I was pursued by people who were

00:02:24.840 wielding weapons, looking for me specifically. It was a taste of autonomous zones and other

00:02:30.900 of these phenomena a bit ahead of the curve. Wow. So you saw this happen three years ago.

00:02:39.660 Did you think it was going to spread in quite the way it has done? Or did you think it was going to

00:02:43.280 be an isolated incident of madness? I thought it was going to spread exactly the way it has spread.

00:02:50.060 The one thing I didn't see was the speed. It happened quicker than I expected. It was like

00:02:55.660 it was a built-up kind of pressure in the system that hit a phase transition point, and suddenly

00:03:01.720 it was everywhere, where I thought it was going to spread slowly, and, you know, it would take

00:03:06.140 five, six, seven years, but it was really like it died down a little bit on college campuses

00:03:12.420 over the course of three years, and then, boom, the George Floyd protest caused it to take over

00:03:18.320 every institution simultaneously, at least here in the US. And do you think that's partly to do

00:03:23.240 with what in our country, certainly lockdowns and people being stuck at home and loss of work and

00:03:29.020 loss of kind of sense of the future? People seem to have reacted in that way. Or do you think this

00:03:33.980 was always going to happen? Well, you know, I told the Congress it was going to happen when they had

00:03:39.100 me testify. You can see in Mike Naina's documentary that I spell out how this was, what I said there

00:03:46.540 was that I'm frequently asked about the free speech crisis on college campuses. And every time

00:03:51.940 I'm asked, I tell them the same thing, which is this is not about free speech and it's only

00:03:56.620 tangentially about college campuses. It will eventually spill out everywhere. There's no

00:04:02.340 question that the lockdown and the chaos of 2020 set this in motion differently than it would have

00:04:10.680 have occurred otherwise. But the real issue is that there's a kind of game theory that causes

00:04:20.000 this thing to spread. And I want to be very careful about using the language of contagion,

00:04:24.740 because very often that language is used to break empathy with people. And I do think that these

00:04:30.600 protests are motivated by a correct understanding that the system is rigged against average people.

00:04:38.340 So the energy that is built up in the system is about something very real. And I don't want to

00:04:43.460 discount that. But the belief structure of the movement and the proposals for solutions are

00:04:51.780 absolutely insane. They are civilization-destroying ideas, and they are spreading by virtue of a

00:04:59.600 discontinuity between what's in the interest of the individual on short-time scales and what's

00:05:05.540 in our collective interest on long-time scales. So, in effect, people are solving a personal

00:05:11.500 problem by embracing this ideology, which causes the mob to temporarily leave you alone,

00:05:17.660 but it empowers the mob to go after the next level. And yeah, I guess the short answer to

00:05:24.540 your question is it unfolded a bit differently. It probably unfolded a lot faster, but the

00:05:29.600 trajectory was clear from the beginning because, you know, I don't know why this was a surprise

00:05:35.700 to anyone, but colleges educate people who then move into the rest of the world. And as they do,

00:05:40.940 they carry whatever they learned in their classes with them so if they learned good things that's

00:05:46.500 great for us and if they learned absolute nonsense about why things aren't working and they were told

00:05:52.640 that there was a simple solution that involved them tearing everything down and utopia arising

00:05:57.200 in its wake then they'll tear it down but brett those people who's going to be listening to our

00:06:02.920 podcast who may have sort of dimly aware of what's happening in america and all the rest of it

00:06:08.400 and the Black Lives Matter movement. Why do you think, and to use the word,

00:06:13.260 civilization ending for these ideas? Isn't that just quite a doomsday prediction?

00:06:20.380 Well, yes, but when you're headed towards doomsday, you want to make a doomsday prediction.

00:06:24.500 That's something I've got some calculations I can show you later about why that's true.

00:06:30.060 But no, it's actually pretty simple. So what we have is a horizontal

00:06:35.200 revolution taking place in the US. And, you know, it's not just the US, you can see it across the

00:06:41.640 English speaking world and in some ways across Western civilization. But this horizontal revolution

00:06:48.780 is basically infused into everything by virtue of largely millennials who have learned critical

00:06:56.020 theory and its downstream consequences in college and elsewhere. They've carried it quietly with

00:07:03.040 them when they were low down on the ladder inside of these institutions. And then suddenly they get

00:07:09.960 the sense that they are demographically empowered to bring about this utopian change. And so they've

00:07:16.960 each gone after the power structures inside their institutions. That means, at least in the US at

00:07:22.720 the moment, we have a problem everywhere simultaneously, right? We're seeing evidence

00:07:28.140 of this in the federal government. We're seeing evidence of this in every single tech company.

00:07:33.040 We're seeing evidence of it in every college.

00:07:35.840 And the fact that I'm saying every should tell you something, right?

00:07:39.280 If this were simply very popular, if it were 70% of institutions, well, that would leave

00:07:44.620 us some sort of foothold because that would mean that the 30% of institutions that weren't

00:07:48.640 affected would have some hope of rebooting the structure.

00:07:52.440 But because it's every college and every company, we don't have anything with which

00:07:58.760 to retain our sanity or our capacity to navigate. Now, that could simply be a threat to the US.

00:08:08.080 And it could be that the US was going to hobble itself by embracing this nonsense. And, you know,

00:08:14.280 if your engineering school embraces the idea that, you know, logic is a European kind of

00:08:22.160 oppression that has been imposed on the rest of the world, which is literally something that is

00:08:26.440 being suggested here. If our engineering schools do that, they will empower the engineering schools

00:08:32.960 elsewhere in the world to take over because, of course, the bridge is built by people who don't 0.99

00:08:37.180 think such things will be stronger and last longer. But think now, if the U.S. does this,

00:08:43.540 if we hobble ourselves, that leaves an incredible power vacuum internationally. Who is likely to

00:08:50.200 fill it yeah all right so my point is how is this a threat to western civilization very simply right

00:08:57.860 you've got a effectively monopolar world and the thing that constitutes the organizing structure

00:09:05.640 of that world you know corrupt and broken as it is but nonetheless an organizing structure

00:09:10.240 that holds liberty as a high value that thing is now engaged in some kind of ritual suicide

00:09:15.880 Right. And I've tried to make this point to people for some time now when people criticize the U.S. and they're right to. The U.S. isn't perfect. Of course it's not. But, you know, the vacuum that can be created by undermining the United States is going to be filled by someone, either the Chinese or the Russians or someone who comes from one of those countries. 0.91

00:09:34.540 I can tell you that's not going to be a pretty place. But are you perhaps reassured by the events

00:09:40.840 of recent days, Brett, with resignation of Barry Weiss and Andrew Sullivan from the New York Times?

00:09:46.680 It seems that people are prepared now to call out some of this stuff, to go against the Harper's

00:09:52.460 letter, for example. Are these steps that are likely to make a significant impact, or is it just

00:09:57.700 the protestations of the doomed few. Wow. It's hard for me to imagine why Barry Weiss's

00:10:04.960 resignation and the Harper's letter would represent reason for hope. I mean, I do think

00:10:10.340 there's reason for hope, but it's going to be a needle that we're going to have to thread.

00:10:13.480 In effect, what we have is evidence that the battle that has gone on at the New York Times

00:10:20.120 has been lost. And I have to say, as much as I don't want to challenge the Harper's letter,

00:10:26.360 I have lots of friends who signed it. I think it was more or less a disaster and not because of the backlash that it got, but because of what it represented. So I saw that letter as an attempt by people who suddenly became aware of the hazard that we face to carve out a deal.

00:10:45.960 They effectively had a kind of immunity and they've lost it. And they seem to have attempted to resurrect it. But in so doing, many of our most important voices, people who have been very careful and courageous in challenging this ideology, were dragged into a letter that fused them together with people who actually hadn't seen it and had been part of the problem.

00:11:13.300 And then a lot of other people were excluded from the letter by design, which means that the letter divided the small but cogent coalition that has been fighting against this all along.

00:11:28.600 The letter took great pains, for example, to portray the censorious instinct as a feature of the right that we are just beginning to see on the left, which that's not the way recent history looks here, right?

00:11:41.360 Many of our best defenders have actually come from the right. And I can say that personally,

00:11:45.760 because I was somebody who received that defense. Many of the people who showed up on my behalf

00:11:50.480 were from the right. And, you know, to portray the right as the problem is just simply

00:11:56.740 misunderstanding where we are. Yeah, there did seem to be a lot of this sort of, well,

00:12:01.280 Trump's evil, but here's my opinion about other stuff in that letter. Go ahead, Francis.

00:12:05.580 No, I was just going to say how refreshing it is to have you asking a silly question instead of me.

00:12:09.960 i'm absolutely delighted that is very unusual i agree with you but but here's the thing brett i

00:12:17.100 remember talking to you and we sort of both identified really as disaffected lefties and

00:12:21.740 heather in particular your college professors i'm a former teacher isn't this the fault of

00:12:27.680 capitalism in that it has presented young people with this economic system which no longer works

00:12:33.560 for them capitalism does not work for millennials and it does not work for the generation that came 1.00

00:12:38.460 after them so can we blame young people for going you know what we need a new system because i'm

00:12:43.720 excluded from it yeah we can't blame young people for registering that the system is rigged against

00:12:50.760 them and demanding that that be fixed and i don't you know i really don't think most of the people

00:12:56.620 involved in this protest have any idea what they're signing up for they are they are reacting

00:13:01.260 predictably to a system that has frozen them out of the well-being that they helped to create or

00:13:07.200 could create if only there was a place for them in society that made sense. So the anger is

00:13:14.440 generated by something very real. I'm hesitant to say it's capitalism because it's very hard to say

00:13:19.940 what that means. I think there are things that markets do that no other structure can do better

00:13:26.240 and that for those things, we need to use markets. And there are other things that markets shouldn't

00:13:30.880 be allowed to touch. And we have now reflexively just thrown markets at everything as the solution

00:13:36.080 to every problem. And it has caused a kind of amplifier of inequality that couldn't possibly

00:13:46.280 have led anywhere else. But the answer isn't simple. Were there a leadership structure in

00:13:55.080 the movement, we could have that dialogue. And perhaps the movement could be brought to some

00:14:00.500 kind of useful place where we could actually finally challenge the things that are so structurally

00:14:05.920 broken about our system. But without leadership, basically every bad idea gets incorporated. It's

00:14:12.380 like, you know, a brainstorming session in which there's no ability to say, no, that doesn't make

00:14:16.500 sense. And that couldn't be a greater hazard, especially with the amount of power that the

00:14:22.800 game theory provides this movement. And to your point about disaffected lefties and all,

00:14:29.920 I still regard myself not only as a liberal and a progressive, but I regard myself as a radical.

00:14:37.480 I haven't changed my political position because the reality of where we are hasn't been altered

00:14:42.880 by this. What has changed is the recognition of others who see themselves on the left,

00:14:49.920 of who their allies might be. So in some sense, when I listen to the mainstream left or even the

00:14:56.540 radical left, I don't recognize anything they're saying as useful in the current context. So

00:15:02.580 when I say I'm a radical, what I mean is I actually think we need radical change in order

00:15:08.120 to survive, that we have run off the end of the tape and the processes that we were using to make

00:15:13.160 sense and to figure out how to navigate have now created an existential threat, or they've created

00:15:19.340 a mode that generates new existential threats so regularly that we won't go on very long this way,

00:15:24.940 therefore we have to fix that but the solutions i hear coming out of the the modern left at least

00:15:31.540 here in the u.s are all backwards looking and none of them stand a chance of solving the problem

00:15:36.660 so the thing that troubles me with it brett and that worries me in the context of you saying this

00:15:41.800 is civilization ending is that uh it's what happens to the people who dissent against some

00:15:47.620 of those very bad ideas that are being suggested people talk about cancel culture but i mean it's

00:15:53.480 not the first time this has happened in history where people who objected to very bad ideas were

00:15:58.760 punished for for speaking their mind and anyone who understands that history would would kind of

00:16:04.560 see where this is going does that is that a big part of what troubles you oh yeah i think um it

00:16:11.160 well first of all i should say because we tend to focus on what's active we are seeing a picture in

00:16:18.980 which the failure mode that we are headed for is this ever expanding power of this mind-numbing

00:16:27.420 nominally left-wing movement. But that mind-numbing left-wing movement is going to back

00:16:34.680 the right wing into a corner. And the problem is the thing that these two entities are going to

00:16:40.860 agree on is that the way to look at the problems of civilization is race versus race. And so my

00:16:47.360 My biggest concern is not that the left wins this and suddenly it's Maoist China.

00:16:52.660 It's that we are in some battle between becoming Maoist China and some kind of return to a race first view of America, which is frankly the uninvention of America.

00:17:04.660 If we are one thing, it is a structure designed to neutralize these population against population dynamics so that we can prosper together.

00:17:13.780 And the uninvention of that is really unthinkable.

00:17:16.540 and why has the left been infected with these bad ideas because everybody drink please my

00:17:23.160 mother's from venezuela i've seen this happen in venezuela and you know chavez get elected

00:17:30.180 everybody goes this is a brand new dawn it goes well you know everybody on the left lots of people

00:17:35.220 prominent germanists thinkers bernie sanders said this is the future it collapses it implodes

00:17:40.720 it's now got a larger migrant population than syria and they don't seem to want to admit that 1.00

00:17:46.400 it's just a bad idea? Well, the problem is that there's, I think, a very simple answer to that

00:17:53.720 question, but it takes a few hours of background work in order to see why it's clear, right? So,

00:18:00.340 in essence, some version of communism or socialism arises in the mind when you see

00:18:08.760 runaway inequality that is generated by a system with markets in the wrong place.

00:18:14.740 so the fact that people naturally land on this formulation that if only we could do x

00:18:23.000 then our problems would be solved fails to understand why x is unstable right so x is

00:18:29.640 unstable for reasons that inside of my discipline evolutionary biology we would call the group

00:18:35.920 selection fallacy the group selection fallacy says that the the central concept of communism

00:18:42.420 from each according to his ability to each according to his need will not work because

00:18:47.620 we are wired not to do it, right? Because anybody who opts out of that system outperforms anybody who

00:18:53.860 opts in. So the short answer is if you institute that system, you will have to institute something

00:19:01.540 authoritarian and draconian with it in order to make it work so that you can restructure people's

00:19:06.120 incentives so that they do not respond to the fact that they would be better off opting out.

00:19:10.760 So in essence, the economic formulation has to come with something unacceptable that descends into some dystopia or other by virtue of the underlying game theory.

00:19:25.080 That doesn't mean that to somebody who knows little of game theory that it doesn't seem intuitively like the obvious answer.

00:19:31.440 and that is a battle we are going to keep fighting until we can figure out how to convey

00:19:37.900 you can't solve this problem with that solution because it it won't last right even if you could

00:19:44.620 make it happen it will either evolve into something else or descend into madness and

00:19:48.720 there's nothing you can do about that so you need a better answer hi guys and welcome to my brand

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00:22:31.420 All right, Brett.

00:22:32.440 So before we get into your political solution, which we'll talk about,

00:22:38.000 you describe yourself as a radical progressive, right?

00:22:42.020 So what is the credible left-wing solution to the problem of runaway inequality

00:22:48.880 that you talk about if it's not socialism, if it's not communism of the type that Francis was

00:22:54.700 talking about? Well, you know, I think the American founders had a lot of it right. And the fact that

00:23:03.280 we are now running into the contradictions that emerged in that constitutional context

00:23:07.880 doesn't invalidate the correctness of the values that they spelled out and the basics of the

00:23:13.940 mechanism. In other words, in the US and in other parts of the world as well, the key issue is one

00:23:21.840 of the corruption of a democratic structure. So our republic now functions predatorily with

00:23:29.520 respect to the population. Policy is either, it is indifferent to the well-being of people. And

00:23:37.180 And what that generally means is that where the interests of large corporations, for example, diverge from the interests of the population, which isn't always, but when they diverge, the corporations always win.

00:23:50.040 And so that has, A, given people the sense that the nature of governance is inherently malignant, so they have stopped participating in it in large numbers.

00:24:00.960 But if you were to remove the corrupting elements, the things that have handed power all to one side, then actually democracy is not a bad way to deal with this issue.

00:24:13.500 That people, to the extent that they can understand what their interests are, will tend to support them.

00:24:18.300 And it is the corruption that makes that dysfunctional.

00:24:23.100 That said, we do need to upgrade our structure.

00:24:26.860 we need to upgrade it because the people who wrote our founding documents didn't know anything about

00:24:33.180 evolutionary dynamics they didn't know about game theory they'd never seen a chainsaw or a train or

00:24:38.560 you know they couldn't have conceived of a nuclear reactor or of a process that could alter the

00:24:44.200 chemistry of the atmosphere enough to change how much energy we trap from the sun so the structure

00:24:50.460 has to be updated for modern realities and that is that is absolutely doable but not until you get

00:24:57.880 the corruption out of the way and because of this corruption that you're talking about i presume is

00:25:02.400 what is crony capitalism essentially whereby you know it's people you know corruption between

00:25:08.520 lobbyists and government and essentially people's uh best interest not being represented

00:25:15.640 which makes people disengaged from the system well you know we can focus on the details and

00:25:22.620 there are a dozen mechanisms through which the water gets through the cracks but

00:25:27.160 the the larger issue is if you don't understand how evolution works and then you don't understand

00:25:34.180 therefore that when you're setting up a system you're really setting up an ecosystem in which

00:25:38.960 corruption will evolve right no matter what system you set up to the extent that there's some loophole

00:25:44.680 that allows some entity to get in to shift policy in its direction in order to enrich and empower

00:25:51.040 itself, that loophole will be enlarged and ultimately it will be the system. And that's

00:25:55.580 where we are. It's happened. And what it really takes is a systems kind of thinking that will

00:26:01.620 allow us to frustrate the very process that causes corruption to evolve and spread and

00:26:07.720 discover new opportunities. Well, Brett is masterfully setting up himself for the opportunity

00:26:12.760 to talk about his political solution brett you've done you've made it impossible for us to break out

00:26:18.360 of this paradigm so just go ahead hit us with it okay um so yes this is um the plan is called unity

00:26:24.900 2020 and i don't um know how familiar familiar you are with what takes place um narratively in

00:26:33.400 our system every four years but what we have is a system in which um change that is to say

00:26:41.200 meaningful change that might actually stand a chance of confronting the corruption is frustrated

00:26:47.900 at the primaries. That is to say, sometimes we have candidates who actually would be interested

00:26:53.180 in fixing the system. They are frozen out in the primaries. We are delivered something

00:26:58.100 either disappointing or false in the general election. And then we have a kind of incoherent

00:27:04.060 conversation over it. But those of us who for decades have looked at the system and said,

00:27:09.420 none of these solutions, neither the red solution or the blue solution, actually is going to change

00:27:14.720 anything going forward. We have to break out of it. We are immediately confronted with the lesser

00:27:20.360 evil paradox. If you vote for something other than the major party candidates, you are voting

00:27:26.540 for something that will draw votes away from whichever of those major party candidates is

00:27:31.280 closer to your own position and empower the one farther away. So your friends are constantly

00:27:36.240 telling you, don't do that. If you vote for something outside of the duopoly, you're going

00:27:42.040 to empower the greater evil, and then this is going to be your fault. Now, there's always been

00:27:46.480 something wrong with this logic. If, for example, Ralph Nader won a single vote and the Democrats

00:27:53.560 lost by one vote, we would blame Ralph Nader for spoiling the election, when in fact the answer is

00:27:59.300 how come you didn't represent the people and therefore win in a landslide? That's the fault

00:28:03.940 of the Democrats. That's not Ralph Nader's fault. But nonetheless, the social phenomenon of being

00:28:09.680 told that the lesser evil is your moral imperative because empowering the greater evil is unthinkable.

00:28:16.380 And if you can find your way out of that little trap, then you're told, well, yes, maybe in an

00:28:20.200 ordinary year. But this time, the Supreme Court has gotten critical. And if you vote for the

00:28:25.180 greater evil, you're going to ruin the country for decades to come by virtue of the fact that

00:28:29.620 the Supreme Court is an appointment for life. Okay. So Unity 2020 is a structural plan to beat

00:28:36.840 the lesser evil paradox. And the idea, it's not a political plan, it's an apolitical plan.

00:28:44.760 It's a non-ideological plan. It is this. We draft two candidates, one from the left and one from

00:28:52.180 the right. And these candidates need to have three characteristics. They need to be courageous,

00:28:56.580 They need to be capable and they need to be patriotic. We draft them together under an

00:29:01.560 agreement that when elected, they will govern as a team. That is to say, they will consult on

00:29:07.520 everything. The president and vice president will have symmetrical power and only in the case where

00:29:13.040 there's no time for consultation or if they really cannot reach agreement on what's in the interests

00:29:17.800 of the public, does the president's decision rise above that of the vice president. And then after

00:29:25.700 four years, the positions would reverse. I think I forgot to mention that the team would have its

00:29:31.640 positions on the ticket chosen by coin flip in the first round. So what this does is it creates a

00:29:39.080 ticket that is A, obligated to the interests of the American public first. We are picking people

00:29:45.540 who are above politics. And it tends to drain support away from both the major party candidates,

00:29:53.400 thereby structurally avoiding, empowering whatever you think the greater evil might be.

00:29:59.020 And then we've built in a fail safe, which is as the election approaches, if the ticket cannot win,

00:30:03.740 we pull the plug and the election reverts to its prior state and we go forward that way. So

00:30:08.860 in this way, those who will come at anything like this and they will say,

00:30:13.980 we've heard this before. It's a third party run. It empowers the greater evil. No, thank you. We

00:30:19.060 can say, no, no, no, no. It's not a third party and it doesn't empower the greater evil. And

00:30:23.220 we've built in a failsafe. So that means you can afford to entertain this and socially you might

00:30:29.820 even survive doing so. Go ahead. I mean, it's a great idea and already I'm on board. How do we

00:30:39.800 don't have a vote in America? I heard him say he's on board, which I assume means that you will get

00:30:47.420 citizenship in time for the election, if possible. Yeah, using my Venezuelan nationality,

00:30:53.280 because we're very popular over there. Oh, yes. But how are you going to implement this idea?

00:31:00.660 Well, you know, it's very simple, actually. We have things catch on all the time, right? We've

00:31:06.500 seen civilization revolutionized multiple times in recent decades by various things. And it reveals

00:31:13.500 that actually, especially in the age of the internet, ideas can simply catch on and spread

00:31:19.180 like wildfire. And frankly, if you look at the demographics of the electorate, our system isn't

00:31:27.620 popular with anybody. There's nobody who wants to elect Joe Biden. I don't even think Joe Biden

00:31:32.460 wants to elect Joe Biden, right? And, you know, similarly with Donald Trump, everybody who's

00:31:37.740 thinking about these issues knows that something disastrous has happened that has left us with no

00:31:44.620 viable choice at a moment when we've never needed leadership more. I mean, in the current era,

00:31:50.540 just look at what has happened with COVID-19 in the US. We've absolutely botched the lockdown.

00:31:56.460 Why do we botch it? Well, in large measure, because it was politicized. So you need to

00:32:01.740 have leadership at this moment. The parties have announced that they are not interested in

00:32:05.540 leadership. The Democratic Party is flirting with cynically embracing this movement in our streets

00:32:11.860 in order to retain or to gain power. And in so doing, it's going to create a racial nightmare 0.95

00:32:18.860 in the US, one that we were rapidly moving away from since the civil rights movement.

00:32:24.040 So there's no other answer to the extent that everybody who can sit calmly for five minutes

00:32:30.800 and think about the fact that there's no good solution that comes out of voting for either of

00:32:34.880 the major party candidates, what other opportunity is there? Now, the hope is that if people can

00:32:40.220 escape this mind-numbing logic that tells them you can't entertain anything that hasn't been

00:32:45.460 presented to you by the major parties, if we can get people to see past that thing,

00:32:50.560 then this idea is intuitive, it's constitutional, and hopefully it spreads to the point that

00:32:56.280 it can simply function. Isn't part of the problem with politics, Brett,

00:33:00.680 tribalism in that you get people like in this country who vote conservatives always vote

00:33:06.700 conservative doesn't matter how terrible the candidate is same with labor and same with

00:33:11.820 democrat and republican well okay yes tribalism is infused into our system and i'm not even going

00:33:19.000 to say it's inherently bad the tribalism that we have is terrible and it's going to destroy us but

00:33:24.360 there's a kind of tribalism that can function well and i would just simply say look if you're

00:33:29.640 focused on the U.S. and how power is distributed in the U.S., but you're ignoring the fact that

00:33:35.600 a race war in the U.S. would result in potentially China having the top spot in the global power 0.95

00:33:44.600 dynamic, then you're missing the point. I mean, for one thing, we have a situation in China in

00:33:50.680 which we have something that, I mean, really the closest parallel is something like Nazi Germany,

00:33:57.780 where the Communist Party has imprisoned apparently millions of people belonging to

00:34:04.140 a couple of ethnic minorities. They are harvesting organs. I mean, this is insane. 1.00

00:34:09.140 You want to create a power vacuum where that entity is suddenly without challenge on the

00:34:14.680 international stage? That's ludicrous. That's not a blow against racism. That's a blow for racism. 0.92

00:34:20.600 So I don't – you know, look, if there was a good answer and it didn't involve me working 18 hours a day trying to capture people's imaginations so that they can free themselves from this idiotic system that we've set up, I would embrace it.

00:34:37.460 I would love to sign on to something else and say Unity 2020 was a cool plan.

00:34:41.700 Here's a better one.

00:34:42.620 Let's go.

00:34:43.240 But I haven't heard the better plan.

00:34:45.180 I really haven't.

00:34:46.060 So I don't know what else there is to do except say, well, it's safe.

00:34:52.760 Why not see if we can go the distance and join up and talk to some other people?

00:34:57.380 brett i i don't want to skip over something because you've used you know terms like civil

00:35:03.460 war race war kind of almost as a matter of fact in the course of this conversation

00:35:08.340 i mean are you saying that that's where this is headed you know when i hear myself say something

00:35:16.140 like that i i wonder is this a dream am i having a nightmare is that what's going on

00:35:20.720 But no, I mean, it's this is just it's it's factual, right? We have every institution in the country and it's really every institution broadcasting the same crazy message. And the message is so wrong. It doesn't even add up superficially, right? Communism adds up superficially. It doesn't work because of group selection problems. But but it's at least a sensible idea at one level.

00:35:47.760 the idea that white supremacy is simultaneously incurable it has to be incurable because if it

00:35:56.300 wasn't incurable we'd have to ask who has it and who doesn't right so the only way we can say hey

00:36:01.080 all white people have white supremacy built into them is to say it's incurable but then to say well

00:36:05.680 because it's incurable it's everywhere and that means that we have to fight it well you've just 0.95

00:36:10.940 told us it can't be fought. So, you know, one step into the logic here, we discover there is no

00:36:17.880 logic here. But at the same time, the underlying logic, the game theory says, well, here's how

00:36:24.600 we're going to battle this out. We're going to figure out how many intersectional points you

00:36:28.280 have, and that's going to dictate how much of the redistribution of well-being and power is going to

00:36:33.380 go in your direction. That means that everybody who's on the losing side of that can calculate

00:36:37.860 that they are, how are they not going to align, right? We have something like 70% of Americans

00:36:44.840 are white and they're being told that they have a defect that cannot be cured. There's nothing

00:36:49.960 that they can say or do that actually makes them okay. How is that not going to create a coalition

00:36:56.860 that sees race as the issue and that fights back? So we can say, are you catastrophizing by saying

00:37:04.960 that this is going to end in some kind of a civil war. I just don't understand what people think

00:37:10.240 the alternative is. There's no way that you can set that dynamic in motion and have it march this

00:37:15.940 rapidly towards a group that large and not cause them to coalesce in self-defense. We have to stop

00:37:22.580 that. It's like, it's kind of like, I feel like, like, like night follows day and BLM follows

00:37:29.480 evergreen. This is what you're talking about. This is the next step. And I agree with you. I mean,

00:37:34.100 i think if if this continues and if we don't challenge i mean obviously you've come up with

00:37:40.680 a political solution i think there's got to be something at the level of culture that

00:37:44.060 that that can be reversed as well and what that is i don't know do you well i mean that's the

00:37:51.020 irony is that the solution at the cultural level is at least the direction in which it lies is

00:37:57.640 straightforward because we have lots of people who do think very carefully about these issues

00:38:02.440 We have lots of people who are not signing up for this woke ideology who are aware that we have a massive disparity problem with respect to things like well-being and power, and they're concerned about it.

00:38:14.620 But something about the modern era has relegated those people to the role of influencer rather than leader, and I think this is one of the critical problems.

00:38:24.060 I mean, myself included, right? What I am now doing with Dark Horse Podcast is a matter of

00:38:30.680 trying to get people to listen rather than there being some structure in which the people who know

00:38:35.640 what's going on can navigate on all of our behalf. So yeah, it's a tough puzzle, but I think the

00:38:44.680 solution involves taking the elements of a prior system that worked and pointing them at the

00:38:50.880 problems that we never solved. That's really the solution. And we talk a lot about the gap

00:38:57.600 between rich and poor and all the rest of it. And then we have the problem of automation and

00:39:04.100 how many people are going to be left without a job. And also as well, what is going to happen

00:39:09.300 to those people who don't have employment and the anger that's going to emanate because of it?

00:39:14.700 I absolutely agree. It ought to be a top priority. This is the reason that Andrew Yang's

00:39:20.520 candidacy took off. And it's also the reason that so many obstacles were put in his way,

00:39:26.560 because he actually was interested in solving that problem. And the duopoly doesn't want the

00:39:32.360 problem solved because it's not suffering in the same way. And in some sense, it's a feature,

00:39:38.140 not a bug. So yeah, we have to confront that. We don't have a choice but to solve the problem.

00:39:45.200 And this time we could solve it. I don't want to say completely because there will always be noise in the system. There will always be bad luck. But the bad luck needs to be randomly distributed with respect to things like race and sex. Right. To the extent that the bad luck is predictably distributed to some populations and not others. It's not luck.

00:40:05.940 brett i was going to ask you something that we often get asked and i i as someone who recognizes

00:40:13.660 you're very careful very intelligent and very sensible and you know knowing having met you and

00:40:19.380 heard you speak i know that you're someone i i would kind of describe you as a healer

00:40:23.920 as a kind of entity right um and we get a lot of people saying to us well you know you guys are

00:40:29.880 interviewing people you are speaking out you are you're being influencers which is you know not

00:40:34.640 the ideal, I hear you, but nonetheless, what do I do as an ordinary person? Because if I speak out

00:40:41.000 at work, I'm going to be fired tomorrow. If I challenge some aspect of this ideology or I teach

00:40:47.720 my kids not to buy into it, they're going to get problems at school. What do ordinary people do

00:40:53.820 about this? Because I see so much of that, people just not knowing how to respond and I don't know

00:40:58.480 what to tell them either. So this is a great question. It is one with a, it doesn't have a

00:41:06.520 wonderful answer. It has an answer that I think is compelling, but it involves swallowing a bitter

00:41:13.520 pill. The game theory underneath what we are facing, and I don't just mean the movement,

00:41:19.780 but the larger game theory surrounding the way governance works, the way sense-making works,

00:41:24.720 all of these things, has created chaos. We are basically decohering. The incoherence of the

00:41:33.420 system is eventually going to result in a catastrophic mistake. And we've seen hints

00:41:38.100 of that many, many times now, but we haven't seen anything that is catastrophic at the level of

00:41:44.100 civilization itself. The solution involves recognizing that your individual

00:41:51.000 well-being is what you are wired to be focused on, but that your individual well-being is

00:41:58.640 actually subordinate in a logical way to the persistence of the structures on which you

00:42:04.500 depend. So if we keep pursuing, how do I get through next week at the expense of how do we

00:42:10.300 get through next year or next decade, we will not get through next year or next decade.

00:42:15.300 There has to be a willingness to frankly place that puzzle in front of people so that they understand that ultimately we have to keep an eye on this longer term, larger scale thing or it's going to erase any protection you manage to arrange for yourself.

00:42:33.200 So, you know, I don't know how useful my story is.

00:42:38.880 My wife and I lost tenured jobs.

00:42:41.000 We have no job security, but we're doing all right.

00:42:45.300 And so the point is that was a trade. And what we got in exchange for that trade was the ability to speak plainly about what's taking place and to bring the expertise that we have from evolutionary biology to venues where actually that's the important set of questions in terms of how you build a system that doesn't suffer these flaws.

00:43:07.140 so was it worth it yeah i think it was worth it i think that even though you know one bad tweet

00:43:16.240 and i could be unable to figure out how i'm going to provide health care for my kids five years from

00:43:23.720 now but the ability to speak plainly about what is taking place is essential and i think you guys

00:43:32.400 are doing this. I think you are being courageous and it's unfortunate that we're stuck in the

00:43:37.320 influencer role, but maybe the model is this. I'm an influencer, but Unity 2020 is actually

00:43:44.720 not an influencer plan. It's actually a structural plan. So the question is, what can you do to step

00:43:52.280 out of the influencer layer where you're simply, you know, a talking head trying to capture the

00:43:58.080 attention of people honorably, but nonetheless to capture their attention to actually doing

00:44:02.760 something that meaningfully alters the way the system functions. All right, but let me just

00:44:07.380 challenge you on that somewhat, Brett. Are you not being kind of communistic about it in that

00:44:13.320 you're denying human biology and psychology and demand, well, not demand, you're not demanding,

00:44:18.020 but in saying to people, put your interests behind the interest of the whole because 10 years down

00:44:24.680 the line those interests will be your interest are you are you not denying it i i deny your

00:44:31.020 accusation but i love the question because it's the right question here's the here's the difference

00:44:37.460 first of all let me just make a weird point a body like a human body is communist it functions

00:44:45.960 exactly as the communist plan would have it your liver and your heart agree on the distribution

00:44:51.960 of resources, irrespective of which one is in the losing position and which one is generating.

00:44:57.460 So the point is there's something about certain structures in which something like communism can

00:45:02.980 work and other structures where it cannot. Now, what I am advocating is not that you

00:45:09.460 become altruistic and thereby sacrifice in favor of others. What I'm advocating is that you

00:45:17.420 recognize that your long-term interest, and by you, I don't necessarily mean you the individual,

00:45:23.380 but I mean you and all of your descendants, which is after all what you're built to care about,

00:45:27.860 that that depends on a certain amount of personal sacrifice now. That is not a contradiction.

00:45:36.160 That biologically makes a great deal of sense, and we see creatures do this all the time. So,

00:45:40.900 in essence, the point, I mean, you've landed on it exactly. You have to be able to tell

00:45:47.840 the difference between a claim that does not add up and is not supported by the game theory and a

00:45:53.180 very similar sounding claim that does because the underlying dynamics are different. And that's

00:46:00.500 what I'm saying. I'm saying that altruism doesn't work, but ultra enlightened self-interest does.

00:46:07.540 and this is ultra enlightened self-interest we are about to destroy the ship on which our life

00:46:12.300 depends and brett what would you say to a young person you know who wants to change the world

00:46:18.380 and believes in this ideology and it's like look racism exists you know there's lots of stats that

00:46:24.340 can be used to you know to back up this fact or the fact you know the gap between rich and poor

00:46:28.340 is getting ever wider we need drastic action now social justice is what's needed i would say i

00:46:36.220 agree with them, but the problem is that you smuggle something in under the label of social

00:46:41.300 justice that isn't social justice. It's injustice. And so, in essence, I would say, slow down.

00:46:49.220 Figure out what parts of what you're saying are dead certain and which parts are a black box that

00:46:54.640 you don't know the contents of. And figure out what it is that you can say going forward that

00:47:00.300 doesn't contain the possibility for, let's say, a Trojan horse, right? Once you understand there 0.94

00:47:06.580 is something structurally wrong, it does result in massive inequity, and that inequity has to

00:47:12.740 be solved or else we're constantly going to be facing, you know, a looming French revolution.

00:47:18.980 So, all right, the problem has to be addressed, but how do you address it? Well, you would want

00:47:24.200 to understand what its nature was, how we got here, where the failures of our current structure

00:47:28.800 are and you would want to figure out how to patch those things or to update the structure so that it

00:47:35.100 doesn't fail in the same way and you know if you do that you will frankly discover what the next

00:47:39.460 failure mode is but as with all prototyping those failures should get smaller and smaller with each

00:47:45.600 iteration ultimately you'll have a structure in which you can tolerate the uh the noise in the

00:47:51.180 system and basically you're not going to get a hundred percent justice you're not going to get

00:47:56.380 100% safety, but you might be able to get 80% of everything. And if you had a system that delivered

00:48:01.440 80% on every value that you held dear, that'd be pretty darn good. And that brings me very neatly

00:48:07.540 to the question that I wanted to ask you, Brett. Do you think with social media the way that it is

00:48:13.500 and with our brains the way that they are, we are actually capable now of ingesting that message

00:48:20.480 that you've just elaborated, which is you're not going to get everything that you want?

00:48:26.380 Yes, I know. I know that we can get there. Now, you've asked, again, an excellent question,

00:48:34.200 which is, are the forces that allow us to see things like this capable of overwhelming the

00:48:40.240 forces that try to disrupt our seeing things like this? And, you know, we don't all have to see it.

00:48:46.020 Enough of us have to see it that we can actually navigate. That's the question, right? It's not

00:48:50.240 like every kid on TikTok has to become a theoretician. But the fact is, we are told

00:48:59.380 that people are foolish. We are told that they have short attention spans. We're told that they 1.00

00:49:06.200 are tribal. However, we have lots of evidence that when they are delivered high quality choices,

00:49:12.160 when they are delivered content that allows us to test those ideas, they don't turn out to be that

00:49:16.860 way, right? Short attention spans do not match with the fact that Joe Rogan several times a week

00:49:22.960 delivers us a three-hour podcast with people across the analytical spectrum, the political

00:49:28.920 spectrum, and people follow these things and they talk about them. So long-form podcasting

00:49:34.600 tells us that the public isn't what we thought it was. The series that we see generated on

00:49:42.080 television now on Netflix and HBO and all these very complex narrative arcs. These are things

00:49:47.660 that people actually invest in, right? That's inconsistent with what I was told about the fact

00:49:52.080 that people needed to see, you know, a 30-minute sitcom and, you know, they couldn't handle

00:49:58.620 anything more complex than that. So we see that. We also see, you know, IDW-style conversations

00:50:06.160 creating incredible interest. Watching 3,000 people for two consecutive nights watch Sam

00:50:14.060 Harris and Jordan Peterson fight over the nature of truth as if they were watching the coolest

00:50:18.760 rock band ever. I mean, that tells you there's a great hunger for anybody who can figure out how

00:50:24.380 to make sense in this era. People are rooting for this stuff. They want it. So I think I would just

00:50:30.280 trust in the fact that if you deliver them high quality stuff they will level up and in fact you

00:50:36.520 know your podcast too right you're doing this right here we'd like to think so but my point

00:50:41.920 was more about social media brett in the sand you know our mutual friend james lindsey was talking

00:50:46.580 about this uh recently about how the nature of particularly twitter but but anything like that

00:50:53.680 really where yes people will watch a trigonometry with brett weinstein but but way more people will

00:51:01.460 see a two-second clip of brett weinstein being called racist and not analyze it critically and

00:51:08.040 and operate on that basis too it's a great question but here's the thing at the beginning

00:51:14.640 that's what i saw right i saw that over time the allegations have dropped away people tired

00:51:23.660 They stopped playing those cards and they even started paying attention to the fact that what brought me to their attention actually didn't have a lot to do with the important part of the message that I have to deliver.

00:51:36.340 So in essence, the stuff that I was teaching in my classes that my students were benefiting from and that made them fiercely loyal and want to study more of it, those things are now spreading into the world by virtue of the fact that there was some process that overwhelmed the reflexive process you're describing.

00:51:56.620 So I'm not saying it isn't there, but I'm saying that if you empower other dynamics, they overwhelm that dynamic. And, you know, look, I think sense making is on the ropes, but it's not dead. And there are certainly places where we see it winning. So greater, better sense making is the thing that we need to amplify. And that results in the positive change that we need.

00:52:18.620 But don't social media companies also have to take responsibility for amplifying voices that are divisive, destructive, and all the rest of it, because they're the tweets or the posts, whatever, that get the most engagement?

00:52:33.760 Well, in effect, they do this to themselves. By deciding that they are going to edit, they then set the impossible problem of what are they going to edit for.

00:52:46.420 And so, for example, at the point that they come up with the insane idea that they're going to tell us which factual claims are accurate, which politicians are lying, they sow the seeds of their own undoing.

00:53:00.340 Because how do you tell the difference between something that is backwards and wrong and something that is so novel and ahead of its time that it sounds backwards and wrong, right?

00:53:12.920 You can't tell that.

00:53:13.860 So either we're going to frustrate the process of progress by deciding that anything that's really far ahead of its time is going to be just relegated to the same realm as all the crackpot stuff, or we're going to recognize nobody has the formula for spotting the great thing hidden amongst the kooks, right?

00:53:31.180 That's the question.

00:53:32.440 So these platforms have to get over themselves.

00:53:37.180 They have to recognize they can't do the job that they ideally think they want to.

00:53:40.540 It looks good on a whiteboard, but it doesn't work in practice.

00:53:43.860 It results in all kinds of injustice and insanity. And, you know, look, there's a reason that free speech has the role that it does in the public imagination. And it's because although most of what free speech allows, most of the stuff that actually needs to be defended under that banner is noxious, it is the banner that protects the really important ideas that need to be protected in order that we ultimately get to hear them.

00:54:13.540 Right. So if Galileo comes back, he shouldn't get banned off Twitter, which likely would happen at this point.

00:54:18.980 Well said.

00:54:19.900 Right. Listen, Brett, we're starting to come to the end of the interview.

00:54:23.020 As you know, at the end, we always ask our guests, what's the one thing we're not talking about that we ought to be?

00:54:28.380 I think in your case, why don't we go for a couple?

00:54:31.720 Okay. There are two things that I think haunt many of our discussions, but they rarely show up formally there.

00:54:39.820 One of them is evolutionary dynamics.

00:54:42.780 that in effect, we know from Darwin that there are only four characteristics necessary in order

00:54:48.840 to get adaptive evolution, right? If you have reproduction, variation, differential success

00:54:55.260 in an environment of limiting resources, you're going to get adaptive evolution.

00:54:59.280 When we set up an economic system or a political system, it evolves. Things evolve within it.

00:55:05.300 And if we don't anticipate that what we write down in our documents about what we're trying

00:55:10.620 to accomplish does not have the capacity to overwhelm whatever niche we have set up and

00:55:16.060 that we will ultimately see the creatures that are supported by the environment that

00:55:21.680 we created, then we will never get this right because we will always be fooled by our own

00:55:26.400 intentions and we will create structures that produce predators of an arbitrary kind.

00:55:32.400 So we need to start thinking evolutionarily because that's the mechanism for shaping

00:55:38.080 society into something of a desirable type rather than a monstrous type right so just break that

00:55:45.100 down a little bit for i'd like to think i'm pretty smart i'm not sure i got all of that so

00:55:49.380 you're talking about we've got to shape the environment the right way otherwise our intentions

00:55:53.620 aren't going to materialize no matter what we do so let's say we're talking about a political

00:55:59.500 structure, and we know that we don't like corruption, and we're going to set a penalty

00:56:06.000 for attempting to corrupt the system. Okay, now what you've done is you've built a structure in

00:56:13.420 which evolution is going to explore the question, what kind of corruptions are invisible, and what

00:56:20.840 kinds of penalties are tolerable from the point of view of discovering how to alter policy in the

00:56:27.180 direction of some private interest. Once you've set that up, if you let it run, evolutionarily,

00:56:33.760 it will create a genius corrupter, right? It will generate something that is capable of altering the

00:56:40.020 functioning of the system without being spotted and with being only slightly penalized. And then

00:56:45.260 you'll have no hope of confronting it because it's going to be better at shifting policy than

00:56:50.200 you will be at shifting it back. So what you have to do is you have to build a system in which there

00:56:55.600 is no selection that allows for this process to explore mechanisms for corrupting the system

00:57:02.040 right you may have to turn the penalties up much higher than you would think so that any attempt

00:57:07.100 to corrupt the system is ruinous to the thing that attempts it so the thing never evolves to

00:57:12.980 the next stage because it keeps going extinct right that's a system that is resistant to the

00:57:18.940 evolution of corruption but you have to understand that it's an evolutionary puzzle in the first

00:57:22.920 place in order to accomplish that goal. What was the other thing you wanted to talk about?

00:57:28.640 Yeah, the other thing I find missing from all of the conversations where it's central

00:57:33.540 is human development. So we are having a very dumb conversation about the nature of being human, 0.97

00:57:41.840 you know, at the sex and gender level, at the population difference level. And the problem is 0.97

00:57:49.380 that we have a very strong tendency to look at adults and to say, well, what is the difference

00:57:53.860 between these two populations, right? What we don't understand is that the magic of humans

00:58:00.320 is that so much of what we are has been offloaded to the software layer, that is to say, to learning

00:58:06.760 and to culture. And that means that our nature is radically altered by developmental environments

00:58:15.460 in ways that may show up in adulthood as differences that we will then attribute to

00:58:21.420 genes because we've been told that genes are very powerful when, in fact, they are not housed in the

00:58:27.860 genetic layer. And the second part of that puzzle is things that we find in the cultural layer,

00:58:35.420 though they are not transmitted in the genome, are often, in fact, if they are longstanding,

00:58:41.280 they are virtually always going to be adaptive, that is to say, evolutionary products that serve

00:58:48.300 the interests, at least of our ancestors, if not us. So until we recognize the interplay of

00:58:55.140 our genetic nature and our cultural software layer, we will continue to mess up the question

00:59:03.680 of what can be done about undesirable patterns in civilization and what can't be, because

00:59:11.460 we, you know, we sort of have this idea that we inherited from, you know, the wisdom of

00:59:17.100 the 50s that, you know, genes are these powerful things lurking inside of us that shift all

00:59:22.380 kinds of stuff that we can't imagine they would have control over.

00:59:26.200 And there's some truth in it, but the larger truth is that so much of what we are is built

00:59:31.780 into the software layer. And the software layer is there because it is rapidly changeable. That's

00:59:37.160 why evolution shifted things in that direction within humans. And we need to take advantage of

00:59:42.240 that. We need to be responsible for altering things carefully in the software layer intentionally

00:59:49.780 in order to solve problems and to basically liberate people and make life better for as

00:59:54.860 many people as possible, rather than basically throw up our hands because we are going to claim

01:00:01.380 that these things live in the genetic layer and therefore what can we do that's absolutely

01:00:07.020 fascinating brett thank you so so much for coming on the show if people want to find you on social

01:00:13.440 media where do they go at brett weinstein on twitter is probably the best place they can check

01:00:18.480 out unity 2020 at articles of unity we've just put out a new animation people might be excited

01:00:25.580 to see so uh come find us yeah and also check out brett brett's uh brett weinstein and heather

01:00:32.120 hayings uh youtube channel you do live streams very frequently which i follow quite a lot and

01:00:38.160 twice a week twice a week yeah twice a week the dark horse podcast yeah uh and it's absolutely

01:00:44.000 fantastic brett thank you once again for coming on and thank you all for watching thanks guys

01:00:48.640 oh sorry brett there you go and thank you very much and we will see you soon for another fantastic

01:00:53.560 episode or live stream. Take care and see you soon, guys.

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TRIGGERnometry - July 26, 2020

Bret Weinstein - We Can Stop a Civil War

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