Bridget Phetasy： I Regret Being a Sl＊t
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 7 minutes
Words per Minute
163.56215
Summary
This week, Bridget McElroy is back on the show, and she's back with a vengeance. She's back to discuss her new book, Why I Regret Being a Slob, and why she wrote an article that destroyed the internet.
Transcript
00:00:00.640
We live in a culture that seems very averse to even having any regrets.
00:00:09.180
I blame myself for being, like, friendly with the guy.
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And I didn't want to tell my mom because I felt like she would be ashamed.
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If you see the way that they talk about women being sexually assaulted,
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imagine if you're a man who's gone through that
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and how hard it would be for you to come forward.
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Bridget, so awesome to have you back on the show.
00:02:05.040
You're one of the funniest people online and offline, frankly.
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You're one of the funniest people is what I'm trying to say.
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But you're also a brilliant writer and a very serious writer.
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You wrote this article that absolutely destroyed the internet,
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as far as I could tell, which was called Why I Regret?
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Tell everybody what the core of it is, why you wrote it,
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So it's a piece, I think, since 2018 that I had been wrestling with.
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And I could never really thread the needle in a way that felt like I wasn't slut-shaming everyone.
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I had to really make it about me because I don't care what other people do and who they sleep with
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and whatever, I was only trying to talk about my own experience,
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just how I felt I had been kind of lied to by the culture,
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So the idea that I could fuck my way to empowerment,
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this idea that, you know, you can sleep your way to feeling like a girl boss
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But I kept doubling down because I think I was trying to cope with feelings of shame
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And it was complicated, too, because I had so much stuff around sex being raised Catholic.
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So the messaging I was raised with was very guilt-infused around sexuality
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and feeling guilty about having sex or even thinking about sex sometimes
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And then really embracing that, this very modern idea of just,
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and the reaction to a lot of this kind of religious, puritanical ideas
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And I was, I don't know how much of it I actually believed in my quiet moments alone.
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And then when I got sober, I really had to look a lot of the damage I caused
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to kind of my soul and spirit directly in the face, as uncomfortable as that was.
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And that led me to kind of wanting to write this piece
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because I saw so many women on just dating and online.
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And it seems like they might not feel like they want to sleep around,
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but there's this kind of pressure to just be like,
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I'm okay with just having sex, you know, with whomever.
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And wondering if, I don't know, they're making decisions maybe for reasons
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that they're not totally in touch with, which is what was the case for me.
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So I could, again, only kind of speak for myself, but yeah, it was something I really,
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people, when I wrote it, were like, oh, you wrote this because you're married
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and everyone feels differently after they have a kid.
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And I was writing this before I ever got married, was in a relationship or had a child.
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So these feelings were surfacing way before any of that.
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And the cultural lie you talk about is the idea that sex with casual sex with lots of people
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You know, there's many people who they feel confident in that and they love it.
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I'm not saying that all of my casual sex was horrible and regretful.
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It's just that I think, for me, I came from, I was trying to kind of heal trauma using sex,
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which is not something I recommend to people who might be in a similar position.
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You know, I think that there was a lot of shame after I was raped when I was 18.
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And some people respond to sexual assault by being hyper-promiscuous.
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And I happen to kind of lean into alcoholism, addiction.
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I mean, I don't think it's an accident that I ended up in rehab a year after that happened to me.
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But there was also just this desire to feel like I had some kind of power and control.
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And I think as a woman, you do have a lot of power, particularly in those super hot years of your late 19 to like 25.
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When you're, I look at pictures of myself then, I'm like, I had no idea how hot I was.
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I mean, I knew I had sexual power, but I didn't.
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It's like you get this Corvette and you're, you don't know how to drive it.
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You're just, that's the weirdest thing about becoming, coming into your sexuality for me as a woman was, I couldn't, I literally could not wear the color red when I was in those eight.
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It was like too, too powerful of a color for me to wear with that much sexual energy and appeal.
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And I didn't, I didn't know how to wield it at all.
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It was like having a lightsaber that I was like, I don't know what to do with this.
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And I did whatever I wanted, but I don't think I always felt great about it.
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If I was really, because there's this question, am I just rewriting, is this just historical revisionism?
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Am I just looking back and now feeling that way?
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Yeah, and I think at the time I was like, hell yeah, but I don't know that I believed that 100% because I know there were mornings, many, many mornings of feeling shame.
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And I mean, I remember one time I had to wake up and drop a pin to figure out where I was.
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And a lot of it is addiction, too, which I think complicates this somewhat, is that I don't know that I would have been as promiscuous had I also not been a crazy alcoholic.
00:09:01.760
So there's that piece, too, that I couldn't delve into in the piece I wrote.
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And so looking back, I know there was, I just had so many mornings of feeling ashamed and feeling used, that feeling of being discarded.
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I just see, I have so many girlfriends now dating and I see what they go through and I see how much it hurts them to not hear from someone if they sleep with them or, I don't know.
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William Blake had a saying that the palace of wisdom is reached through the gates of excess.
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And actually, maybe a way of looking at it and reframing it might be the fact that, okay, you had all these experiences which you look back on, but maybe you shouldn't regret it.
00:10:02.320
And maybe it's given you a deeper understanding not only of who you are, but what you want from life.
00:10:08.500
What was interesting to me, too, is this default, the reaction to the piece was really interesting.
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And one of the more interesting things that I wasn't expecting was people's resistance to my use of the word regret.
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We live in a culture that seems very averse to even having any regrets.
00:10:36.480
And I don't know if this is a cultural thing, but I feel okay with having regrets.
00:10:48.460
I don't think you should let them hold you hostage.
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But looking back, there's many reasons I regret this, too.
00:10:58.000
It's not just because of what I feel it did to my own spirit and soul at the time and having to, doing more damage to myself than was already done.
00:11:09.040
I also regret that some of these guys can say they had sex with me.
00:11:12.800
Like, it's from a purely egotistical point of view.
00:11:17.820
The first time I ever went on Rogan, I got so many text messages, and I was like, ugh.
00:11:22.740
Like, it was probably the beginning of me thinking about writing this piece because someone texted me, and they said it was a man I'd had, like, a fling with.
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And he texted me, and he was like, I'm super happy to be able to say I was in somebody who was on Rogan.
00:11:55.340
And that's why you should never date an Australian.
00:12:00.300
I don't ever want to hear from women if they're dating rock stars, comedians, and Australians.
00:12:11.940
No, but that, that was, you know, and there were many of those.
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There were, not hundreds, but there were, there were enough that it made me feel disgusting.
00:12:22.780
And, um, also, just like, shit, I don't want that guy to be able to say that.
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Just point to his buddies and be like, mm, I shagged her.
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I'm only using shagged because I'm with you guys.
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It is a great word and somehow not as offensive as, exactly, and slightly more playful.
00:12:49.900
But if you say, shag, yeah, that's kind of nice.
00:12:55.100
But it's so interesting to hear you talk about this because we live in a culture where promiscuity
00:13:02.660
You know, where we say there's no difference between women and men.
00:13:08.820
And to be brutally honest with me, I never, I've had a few one night stands.
00:13:13.140
I've always found them lonely and dispiriting experiences.
00:13:16.640
I don't think enough people realize that even if, you know, males and females are wired differently
00:13:24.480
and men are able to sleep with more people, have less social cost, have, I see even in
00:13:32.720
all of the emails I've received from men, they have a cost too.
00:13:37.280
It doesn't always, like you said, it doesn't always feel good for them either.
00:13:41.220
Or even, even getting sober, the difference in male and female meetings when you kind
00:13:51.180
You looked at me like there's a, there's a difference.
00:13:55.620
They, the difference, I think women have a lot of shame about what has been, what they've
00:14:03.640
done, what's been done to them in many instances.
00:14:06.860
Men seem to have a lot of shame about what they've done, to not, not necessarily what's
00:14:14.160
happened to them, what they've done to other women, how they've treated other women.
00:14:17.640
So it seems very different to me that, and that's just what I've gathered from talking
00:14:22.880
to men about the different, why they love going to men's, you know, recovery meetings
00:14:27.380
is just because they can talk about different things in a way that they can't when there are
00:14:32.020
women around in the same way that women can share about stuff that is very specific to
00:14:38.840
the female experience, particularly when you are doing drugs and drinking, that maybe men
00:14:44.960
can't relate to or are part of their, you know, problem and trauma and whatever.
00:14:52.240
So, yeah, I think it's, it's been, um, that piece is still going.
00:14:59.980
I just didn't, I did, I had a podcast with the Ask a Jew podcast hosts, and they were saying
00:15:05.720
one of the women, women, Hialeah was telling me that she gives it to her students.
00:15:10.640
And I've had so many parents reach out to me who have young, young, you know, 20 something
00:15:16.700
college age women, and they're saying, they send it to them and say they have their daughter
00:15:22.340
I have people with young, you know, teenage girls, and they reach out to me and ask me,
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they're like, I don't know if my daughter should read this.
00:15:30.040
And it's very interesting having a daughter now and having that out there because I don't
00:15:39.620
Well, she's only what, 16 months, 17 months, your daughter?
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I mean, A, she's, she's, she's really quite, uh, got quite a mind of her own.
00:15:52.320
But also, I think it's, you know, it's crazy how fast it goes.
00:16:01.020
And I'm grateful that I have the opportunity to talk to her about these things, but it's,
00:16:06.120
those are going to be interesting conversations.
00:16:09.300
I've found, you know, when we're talking about this and when the Russell Brand allegations
00:16:16.060
broke, and look, firstly, just to clarify, yeah, you know, it's, you know, nobody knows
00:16:28.900
And Russell, but not necessarily the allegations, but the reaction to the allegations I found
00:16:34.340
even more interesting, you know, how people were just like, you know, he's guilty, and
00:16:39.960
the other people who, many of whom never even knew about Russell or about the allegations
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and may not even have read, immediately were just like, oh, you know, it's the women and
00:16:54.240
And there was kind of a subcurrent, which is actually what I want to talk about, is these
00:17:03.100
I mean, that's a very 90s, late 90s, mid-aughts.
00:17:08.420
When you look at Pamela Lee Anderson and why the judge basically threw out the, they said
00:17:16.240
that essentially because she was in Playboy and it already showed her body when that tape
00:17:20.840
got released, she, the judge said, oh, well, you're already out there, so it's not violating
00:17:31.560
But that idea of, you know, she's asking for it is not, that's the other funny thing about
00:17:38.520
the weird modern, like, whatever the discourse is right now, it's insane.
00:17:43.820
And it feels very extreme, but there does seem like there's this rise of misogyny, there's
00:17:50.200
a lot of body count talking going on, and I don't think it's, it's very weird, but, like,
00:17:56.100
all these guys who are doing this are acting like they invented slut-shaming.
00:18:01.740
I'm like, you guys, like, this has been around, you know, you aren't inventing some new thing.
00:18:08.520
This is, like, the oldest tale of time around women.
00:18:12.900
And the stuff, I reacted very strongly to the, to the way that particularly people with large
00:18:20.600
platforms automatically came out and just defended Russell Brand before they'd even heard
00:18:28.720
It's like, you haven't even seen what is being alleged to.
00:18:33.300
And I have, and then when I came out and said, you know, I pushed back against this, I got
00:18:38.520
kind of piled on and people, I, I, people act like I didn't extensively write about this
00:18:48.920
We're going to pay a cost for this in the future.
00:18:51.540
And here we are, the chickens have come home to roost.
00:18:54.120
And now it's just, there's no such thing as no allegations are to believe.
00:19:04.220
It was, everyone seems to, not everyone, but the vast majority of people want everything
00:19:09.740
And it's like, what happened to Aziz Ansari was an abomination.
00:19:20.380
Who, who, who are the people that think that was a bad thing that happened?
00:19:29.220
But we've, we have lost the ability to have that nuance.
00:19:32.360
And, and it's something that we lost during Me Too, which was why women like myself who
00:19:38.140
were coming from the left, it was one of the things that pushed me, you know, sent more
00:19:44.260
center saying, okay, well, due process is necessary.
00:19:51.720
The Kavanaugh stuff drove me insane because the Democrats, I'm like, you guys have gone
00:19:57.240
from using women to now using sexual assault you're weaponizing.
00:20:05.100
And that was the first time that I really was like, wow, neither party gives a shit about
00:20:15.320
And I remember every, all the adults in the room were talking about the politics of it
00:20:21.200
and how this, whatever side they might've been on, how this played out.
00:20:27.760
She's being piled on by, you have the, you know, Hillary Clinton basically throwing her
00:20:33.280
under the bus and you have all the right wing using, her own mom had to testify against,
00:20:50.860
And it was shortly after I had been sexually assaulted that I really checked out of politics
00:21:01.080
I actually have been thinking so much about this because I really believe that was the
00:21:05.800
beginning of that internal sense of politically homeless that drives everyone crazy.
00:21:16.340
And then the Kavanaugh stuff drove me crazy because it reminded me so much of that.
00:21:23.000
But then I felt like they were weaponizing sexual assault and it got more and more ridiculous.
00:21:28.080
You had that douchebag, whatever that lawyer was, Avanetti, coming out and saying he was
00:21:34.080
gang, but it just, it was so undermining to the whole entire process and it made people
00:21:41.040
not, and again, you had kind of people on the right wing going, talking about, you know,
00:21:47.060
being like defaulting to rape apologists immediately because they're fighting against this ridiculous
00:21:54.340
kind of idea that you need to believe all women.
00:21:59.920
And I was like, this is not going to be good in the long run.
00:22:05.460
And you have huge people with lots of followers just coming out.
00:22:11.340
And I mean, I think Elon even came out in defense of him before.
00:22:15.780
I'm like, you are the richest man in the world.
00:22:19.080
You are the owner of the platform that this discourse is taking place on.
00:22:24.240
You didn't need to say anything, but you said, I stand with Russell.
00:22:29.420
And then you wonder why women don't come out and report and they don't come forward because
00:22:40.940
And it's just, it feels like we're going backwards.
00:22:43.980
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The one thing that I wanted to touch on as well, the thing that I found most depressing
00:24:18.300
and dispiriting about the whole thing was just then there was the narrative would always
00:24:29.600
And then what people started saying is, you know, you can't settle down with a woman who
00:24:35.480
has been promiscuous because she has this, she is unable to, in their term, pair bond.
00:24:42.120
And you're going, mate, you're a dickhead with Twitter followers.
00:24:53.060
And I go, and these are some of these people I know.
00:25:00.400
I went into a very dark depression after all of this.
00:25:04.400
It was really upsetting to me because perhaps being, I think being rejected by the left,
00:25:10.860
as we talked about on the last podcast and that we did, and really coming, feeling like
00:25:16.700
I was tribalist, maybe there was some sense that the right post-COVID, maybe they were
00:25:31.240
Perhaps they were allowing for more people to come in that had felt alienated by them in
00:25:37.600
the past, and maybe, and I'm just, you know, working this out as we're talking, I perhaps
00:25:45.040
felt like there was some kind of place that I could go where I felt like women were respected
00:25:56.280
Because the other thing that I get online when I talk about the right wing has a problem with
00:26:00.860
women is all the people on the left going, oh, the leopard's eating your face.
00:26:06.720
I'm like, fucking, I don't want to hear shit from you.
00:26:12.780
And don't give me shit about, like, the leopards eating my face on the right.
00:26:18.400
You guys, you have systematically reduced me to the sum of my parts in all of your rhetoric.
00:26:25.340
And so, like, I'm not hearing any of that shit from the people who are now like, oh, that's
00:26:32.020
what you get for cozying up with the right wing.
00:26:34.600
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And it's such a great point, because just to finish on this.
00:27:17.220
The, I was thinking, and with brand, and I thought it was so interesting.
00:27:25.420
And if you look at what's happened kind of from 2014, but it really hit acceleration point
00:27:31.740
in 2016, we saw the dark side of the left, the kind of the shadow side of the left.
00:27:38.160
It's been coming more and more to the fore with trans, with, you know, talking about equity,
00:27:46.520
But recently, we've seen the masks slip from the right as well, where I've seen people on
00:27:51.220
the right, I'm like, oh God, you're actually awful.
00:27:57.220
I have a friend, it's actually someone who's been a subscriber in my locals community, but
00:28:03.080
we've become friends, as you know you do, with people who are very active in the community.
00:28:07.200
And he says the default ideology in America is but the right, you know, there's, it's
00:28:13.540
really just like, but the right, but the right.
00:28:15.640
But then when you see some of the stuff that comes bubbling up under the surface, you're
00:28:22.240
like, but this is what people are afraid of, you know, and people are saying, and again,
00:28:27.700
I think what I really landed on post brand and watching the discourse around it was that
00:28:38.020
I'll vote for whatever party cares about women, but I don't see it coming.
00:28:42.940
I certainly don't see it in the rhetoric on the right.
00:28:46.260
And I, I don't see it in at all from the left, whether they want to say that's true or
00:28:54.960
So yeah, I feel, I feel actually more, as we sit here today, feel more politically homeless
00:29:03.480
And it's interesting because when we spoke last, I was hearing from, because I occupy
00:29:09.780
this very strange, you know, wasteland of the center, the, it was a lot of women on the
00:29:21.860
Lately, particularly when I tweeted about, you know, the right has a woman problem.
00:29:27.300
Um, and it went, and then someone quote tweeted me and said, maybe we don't want, um, someone
00:29:32.760
who's slept with a hundred dudes voting for the, I'm like, you're okay.
00:29:37.080
Yeah, why won't, why won't these slut whore bitches vote for us?
00:29:44.460
Um, okay, so you're only making, yeah, what exactly is the number too?
00:29:52.400
No, no, no, you're supposed to be a virgin until marriage.
00:29:55.840
And I say this, by the way, as someone who I think probably on family stuff, I am actually
00:30:00.800
I do think in an ideal world, that is the best way for people to get together.
00:30:05.660
And it's what I've done and it's been great for me is all I'm saying.
00:30:09.000
But I don't think that, uh, attacking women for not doing what you think is going to be
00:30:15.660
But Bridget, I want to come back a little bit because there's something that happened
00:30:25.780
So now I hear from conservative women thanking me saying they can't say.
00:30:31.500
So that's been an interesting shift is that it was women on the left saying, oh, I can't
00:30:36.680
And now it's women on the right going, yeah, we do have a problem.
00:30:43.020
And so that, that's been a weird dynamic, just anecdotally in my DMs, which is always
00:30:56.720
One of the things that happened when those allegations broke was a lot of people said
00:31:02.520
something which on the surface sounds correct, which is if you have allegations against somebody,
00:31:09.780
And these women didn't go to the police and it's been 15 years.
00:31:21.180
And I, I, that's a minefield that I don't really know how to navigate exactly because
00:31:27.180
if, if you're talking about criminal prosecution, the only way criminal prosecution happens is
00:31:34.520
On the other hand, having spoken to not just you, but other people who've been raped,
00:31:41.500
So how do we, how do we do, how do we solve that?
00:31:46.260
I mean, and you look at like the number of cases that actually get prosecuted when they
00:31:51.240
do go to the police and the way that police often treat victims and it's, it's not great.
00:32:01.780
I think about this a lot because did I, at, at the age that I was at, I felt that it was
00:32:12.180
So I think you often feel in the moment, I, you know, what's really interesting is that
00:32:17.280
I was, because of all this talk about the brand stuff and then they were talking about
00:32:22.600
the journal and I was like, did I write about this?
00:32:25.680
And I have a journal from, it's like the darkest time in my life all through, it's, it's a
00:32:34.280
And I did write about being sexually assaulted right after it happened.
00:32:39.480
And it was, it was, it was, it was painful to read because I put so much blame on myself.
00:32:51.300
And that's why I don't fault women for 10 years later when they're older and more mature
00:33:01.720
I was, I, and I can look at that girl and say, I was a young girl who I, I blame myself
00:33:10.520
I blame myself for being like friendly with the guy.
00:33:14.880
And I didn't want to tell my mom because I felt like she would be ashamed.
00:33:19.440
And I, I have a different perspective on that than I had at that exact, like having the ability
00:33:27.060
to re look at what I was thinking at that age is so eyeopening for me and for people going,
00:33:35.300
Like you cannot know unless it's happened to you, how disruptive something like that
00:33:42.140
is and, and how confused you are and how betrayed and how ashamed or like the, the, it's,
00:33:51.940
I, and this guy was older, he was powerful and I felt like no one would believe me, you
00:34:09.260
And I didn't want to have to put myself through that.
00:34:11.340
And I didn't want to have to expose myself that way.
00:34:15.020
Anyway, so I don't, I mean, I, that's why I thought Me Too was so good.
00:34:21.020
Like it was the good thing about Me Too, because I felt like my daughter was, I would never want
00:34:26.200
her to feel that way about me, but I felt like she was coming into a world where there was
00:34:38.360
Um, so I, I felt like she was coming into just a place where we had come to somewhat more
00:34:46.580
understanding of what that does to a woman, a man.
00:34:51.020
I mean, if you see the way that they talk about women being sexually assaulted, imagine if you're
00:34:56.820
a man who's gone through that and how hard it would be for you to come forward.
00:35:06.640
Men are violated and molested and all kinds of things.
00:35:10.780
And if you're a man and you see the way that people are speaking about this as if it's their
00:35:15.360
fault or whatever, you're, the chances that you're ever going to come forward are even
00:35:29.440
They were seeing how many of their sisters, mothers, friends have experienced this.
00:35:34.820
And then now it feels like we're regressing again.
00:35:39.340
You know, it feels like we're going, we're going back into, into the time where women,
00:35:45.380
again, you, when you see this discourse occurring and everyone from, I think Jordan Peterson even
00:35:51.560
came out, people that you kind of look to and respect on some level, perhaps, particularly
00:35:57.020
if you're independent or right wing because everything's fricking partisan now.
00:36:01.680
You see that and you're like, oh, I'm, I don't, you know, suddenly you start asking yourself
00:36:09.300
if you're, if you, if it is your fault or if it is something that you should be ashamed
00:36:14.960
of or if you, it is because you were promiscuous and that's never an excuse.
00:36:20.720
You know, you can, that's just never an excuse.
00:36:24.120
You can't use that no matter how many people someone slept with.
00:36:27.360
And I don't know how you fix that because it seems like it's getting actually worse now.
00:36:37.740
You know, I, I would encourage, I can only say that, and I've talked about this before
00:36:42.820
on Rogan, I was kind of able to help someone through this when they went through it themselves
00:36:49.740
around exactly the same circumstances and age that I was.
00:36:53.920
And we went and got, um, a rape kit done and all that stuff.
00:36:59.600
And she didn't have to, you know, press charges right away, but she could have, and she didn't
00:37:04.440
want to, she didn't know how to talk, same thing.
00:37:07.620
But, um, I encouraged her to talk to her mom about it, which she eventually did.
00:37:12.760
And she did something that I didn't do, which was just taking the step to even go get a rape
00:37:24.240
It's something that looking back, should I have done that?
00:37:29.340
But at the time, could I have, did I feel like I had anyone who would take me or I didn't.
00:37:36.940
So, and if a bunch of women came out and, you know, came, were saying that this person did
00:37:43.960
something to them, I would absolutely come forward, even if it meant all the stuff that
00:37:51.140
However many years later, I would definitely bring my journal and, and stand behind those
00:38:01.500
But, you know, there's a lot of women who will say that I, it was selfish of me not to
00:38:09.140
do something because they could have gone on to rape other women.
00:38:14.140
And I, I have to, again, I, I live with that now looking back.
00:38:20.740
But at the time, I, that wasn't even like a consideration.
00:38:25.720
I wasn't even, I was like, how do I get through the next day?
00:38:28.900
How do I just, I started drinking alcoholically almost immediately and then doing hard drugs.
00:38:34.940
It was like, I wasn't thinking about like anything other than, and other than the pain
00:38:51.800
It's a weird thing that social media has done where everyone is pretending to be empathetic,
00:38:57.120
but actually everyone's a fucking psychopath, right?
00:39:01.740
Like, there's a distinct lack of empathy in the idea that, you know, well, if a woman
00:39:07.180
was raped, then if she has to go to the police, otherwise it didn't happen.
00:39:12.400
Like you, if that was your daughter, you think that, you really think that if your daughter
00:39:17.200
came to you and said that, and she did, do you know what I mean?
00:39:24.620
If you, if you're 40 years old, you have a 20 year old daughter and she comes to you
00:39:28.200
and says, actually, when this thing happened five years ago, whatever, you wouldn't be
00:39:36.340
And you know that if your daughter comes forward, it's, it's going to be the entire right wing
00:39:47.020
And that's the other thing that was bothering me about all of this is that I felt like the
00:39:51.080
women who came forward were damned if they did and damned if they didn't.
00:39:55.060
If they came forward, they would be like riding Russell's coattails and trying to get famous.
00:40:00.120
If they remain anonymous, they're just hiding in the shadows and they're, they're liars.
00:40:05.620
And so there's no way for these people to win in this situation.
00:40:14.520
It might not be, but I still feel like in, we cannot deny him due process any more than
00:40:22.080
we should still at least give some benefit of the doubt to people who are making these
00:40:28.340
And in fact, people say, oh, it's because he's moved over to the, you know, he's like,
00:40:34.960
whatever, confronting the matrix or whatever the fuck they say.
00:40:38.420
Like he, this guy is a threat to, you know, everyone, the, the, whatever they're saying.
00:40:45.940
Well, wouldn't that make it even more dangerous for these people to come forward then?
00:40:51.600
Wouldn't it make it more, they have now this whole ecosystem coming after them as opposed
00:40:59.840
And, and, and then the other weird thing that was such a paradox was they're like, well,
00:41:08.680
And he, I'm like, but now you're doing the same thing.
00:41:11.720
So like he was protected by the establishment and he was protected by these people and they,
00:41:17.280
nobody came after him and they buried all this stuff.
00:41:20.500
But now can you see that you're potentially doing exactly the same thing?
00:41:27.900
It's like, oh, they were protecting him when he was their dude.
00:41:40.500
Because the whole, one of the main, one of the main sort of ethoses of the left was don't
00:41:51.980
Everybody's free to live the life that they want.
00:41:59.020
The majority of them, you know, super Christian.
00:42:08.460
Are you not turning your back on your own ways of being?
00:42:14.360
Yeah, it's, it's weird to watch what's happening on the right is interesting to me right now.
00:42:25.360
Because the algorithm, it's like they're being red-filled.
00:42:29.180
And for lack of a better word, it just feels like they're being, the incentives are kind
00:42:35.600
of pulling them to the, in the same way that we saw on the left, the extreme faction that
00:42:41.480
did not represent most people pulled the discourse to the left.
00:42:46.900
And left a lot of people adrift or, or, you know, that idea like, I didn't leave the left,
00:42:54.000
I see the right kind of, it's like this negative feedback loop that's just pulling, pulling
00:43:01.180
them to the right because you're seeing people who like to talk about, you know, the matrix
00:43:10.140
shirtless, um, like making millions of dollars and really capturing this young male audience
00:43:20.960
And so I can't help but this, think that this new weird, like in kind of conservative, conservacon
00:43:28.020
discourse about body count and stuff, I'm like, you guys had so much goodwill post COVID and
00:43:34.680
post woke-ism, so much goodwill and you cannot win.
00:43:39.600
You just, you, you're determined to just like, you're going to start now policing women, being
00:43:45.480
like obsessed with who women are sleeping with.
00:43:48.660
It's, it's, it's freaking creepy and weird guys.
00:43:51.640
Like now you're going back to the right that I remember.
00:44:03.220
Now you have, now you're like a godless version of the moral majority, which is basically what
00:44:18.040
He said, if you're, if you fear the religious right, just wait till you meet the post-religious
00:44:26.440
And, and the thing that I find terrifying is the right were what, one of the main, particularly
00:44:32.740
in this country, pushing back against the extremes of trans ideology, you know, which
00:44:37.880
everyone in this room I'm sure is just absolutely, finds absolutely in horror.
00:44:49.740
In the UK, we're actually winning the argument.
00:44:56.340
And then you see certain people coming out in the, on the American right.
00:45:00.040
And they're, you know, they've always been pushing back on it.
00:45:03.940
And then you start to go, how long will it be until you come after the gays?
00:45:07.960
Because when you win this fight, as the fight will be won, because it's so awful what
00:45:12.860
they're doing, how soon until be, until you're like, you know what, you know gay marriage?
00:45:19.560
Well, they're already talking about gay marriage, but it seems to me like if that, if that is
00:45:23.880
taken to its logical conclusion, you say the right that I remember, the right that
00:45:27.640
I remember is the one that Carlin and Hicks were pushing against, right?
00:45:31.420
They're going to be censoring people's speech before long.
00:45:33.720
They're like, they spent 20 years shouting about free speech.
00:45:36.560
And before you know it, we're going to be like, you can't say this, you can't joke about
00:45:41.380
Yeah, it does seem like anyone who has power wants to censor people, and everyone seems
00:45:52.120
You know, they're like, oh, wow, the censorship is coming, and it is.
00:45:56.820
And that is where I feel very conflicted, because the institutional power lies on the left, and
00:46:06.060
there is no doubt that you have big tech in cahoots with the government, in cahoots with
00:46:12.720
academia, and the media, and Hollywood, and entertainment, and all of these huge institutions,
00:46:19.840
school, everything, working to be pro-censorship, and all this weird flip-flopping that we've seen,
00:46:33.060
So I understand the kind of, oh, and you guys are, why the right is becoming more extreme,
00:46:40.060
and they're like, well, these centrists like ourselves are frickin' useless.
00:46:48.900
They're not entirely wrong in saying, in this fight, you have to, if you, so they're talking
00:46:56.980
about women being sluts and body count, but they're sterilizing children.
00:47:02.760
Like, don't you eventually have to take a stand and say, this one's worse than this one?
00:47:12.660
You know, I've been, it's probably the biggest criticism that I receive that I don't think
00:47:19.160
But then when I get piled on by the right and see that other side of them where it's
00:47:25.760
unsettling, and it just feels like misogyny is everywhere, you know?
00:47:35.260
I hate to use that term, but it does feel like there's this misogynistic impulse that's
00:47:40.640
like, wants to tell me what to do with my body and what I can, and shame me for my past,
00:47:53.180
See, I disagree with you about us being useless because I think-
00:47:59.640
Look, countries are different and America's politics is very different.
00:48:03.880
But the reason we've been successful on the trans issue in the UK is actually because
00:48:09.840
more moderate people have been speaking up about it.
00:48:15.940
But Douglas Murray, sorry to interrupt you, will argue that it's because we don't have somebody
00:48:20.400
like Oprah coming forward and speaking out on this that doesn't give people permission
00:48:25.860
in the States to even push back who are moderate and might feel like, like they do in the UK.
00:48:34.620
But, but people like us who are clearly not on the right strongly or on the left strongly,
00:48:40.740
providing a space for that conversation to be heard.
00:48:43.600
And people with much bigger platforms like a J.K. Rowling, there's a left-wing Labour MP who we
00:48:50.660
You know, you have people speaking out who are immune as much as is possible to the isms and the
00:49:00.620
That's very important because most normal people, they don't want to side with the people who are
00:49:09.840
They want to see a position they believe in reflected in moderate, sensible conversation.
00:49:16.220
And then they feel more empowered to be like, oh yeah, I'm against this ideology as well.
00:49:20.960
So I don't think we're useless actually at all.
00:49:22.740
I think the reason you say that is it's not the most pleasant place to be.
00:49:27.400
The centre is always the place of greatest tension.
00:49:29.660
I agree, but I do think at a certain point, I would have to choose a side in terms, I don't
00:49:45.120
think the reasonable moderate centre feels represented.
00:49:49.160
So in absence of having any political representation, you are forced to kind of choose the lesser of
00:49:55.240
two evils. And I think many people, the argument would be that people of the IDW or the classical
00:50:05.440
liberals or whatever space we occupy, the centre, default to voting for the left. I don't know
00:50:15.960
Yeah, I don't either. But when it comes to choosing a president, which I actually
00:50:22.120
there's not many options, you know, I guess I could vote third party just out of, out of
00:50:30.940
some sense of my morality. But as these fights become more, I was joking on Dumpster Fire
00:50:38.020
just this week. I was like, if Gavin Newsom become, gets the election, I might have to
00:50:43.980
vote for Trump, which is like something I, and I don't even know if that's, if I could hold
00:50:49.040
my nose and vote for him because I find him so just reprehensible as a, as a person. But,
00:50:55.860
and I think character matters. But, but then when it comes down to these kinds of fights,
00:51:01.000
like pushing back against sterilizing kids, what do you do?
00:51:09.280
Well, I'll tell you my answer. I'll tell you my answer, which is there are some things.
00:51:16.480
I mean, that's part of it, but there are some things that are so abominable that they are
00:51:20.980
just more important. And therefore I will hold my nose with both hands if I have to, is the
00:51:26.540
truth. And I will vote for whoever is going to oppose that. That's actually one of the
00:51:30.840
dangers in, in what this is doing, because it, it forces a lot of people to vote for parties
00:51:38.740
And the more you, the left pushes the extremes into the mainstream, the more you're going
00:51:44.580
to, people are going to be like, Oh yeah, you know what? You know, I don't care about
00:51:52.700
And, and it's, but that if, if, if the left-wing parties refuse to have borders, want to sterilize
00:51:59.100
children, et cetera, I'm sorry. I will vote for Donald Trump without, if I lived in this
00:52:04.420
country, I'll vote for a right-wing party in the UK without any hesitation.
00:52:08.780
I will not hesitate for a second because it's fucking evil.
00:52:13.400
Yeah. And, and there's a lot of people who would say that the, the stuff that's happening,
00:52:20.400
I mean, January 6th, we're touching all the buttons today. And now we're talking about
00:52:25.740
January 6th. People would argue that the stuff that's happening on the right is a constitutional
00:52:32.780
crisis and that if he got power, he would never leave. And that there's, you know, fascism
00:52:41.500
But that isn't true though, Bridget. He's not a fascist.
00:52:45.200
Right. So we have, this is where, this is where the thing comes in is like, the reason I will,
00:52:50.060
I will, as someone who is in our kind of politically homeless space, vote for somebody on the right
00:52:55.120
is because the things they say about the right are not true.
00:52:58.840
Right. Whereas the things that people say about the left are true.
00:53:01.800
So for example, in the UK, um, they call Suella Braverman, who's a descendant of immigrants,
00:53:09.800
racist and xenophobic for wanting to prevent people from getting into boats illegally and
00:53:15.840
coming into the country in a country, which now spends about $10 million a day on hotels
00:53:26.720
Is it, does that make her a fascist? I don't think so.
00:53:29.660
Does thinking that there are men and there are women and you can't change sex by incantation,
00:53:37.840
Right. So in my opinion, you have to go down the list of the issues and go,
00:53:42.320
is what is being said about the right true? Is what is being said about the left true?
00:53:46.000
And in my opinion, right now, when I look at that, I mean, the American right, yeah,
00:53:51.260
is going loopy as we've talked about, but they're not, they're not actually fascist.
00:53:55.380
Right. They're not actually going to suspend democracy. They're not actually going to do
00:53:59.780
any of these things. January the 6th was not an insurrection. It was bad. It's bad that that
00:54:03.720
happened. It's not a good thing, but it wasn't an attempt to seize power. Right. So just because
00:54:10.280
the left says certain things about the right doesn't mean it's true. Just because the right
00:54:14.460
says certain things about the left doesn't mean it's true. We have to actually look at what they're
00:54:17.600
saying and go, is this true? Yes. Is this true? No. And play issue by issue. Do you know what I mean?
00:54:21.780
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, but then I start thinking about, uh, like Breitbart's whole politics are
00:54:29.500
downstream of culture, which the right has really embraced and why they try, they're trying to be
00:54:34.540
more culturally persuasive. And if that is actually true, why they would engage in all of this silly,
00:54:43.280
um, discourse around like my Instagram feed, there was one last night that I was showing my cousin and
00:54:52.060
my, and we were dying laughing and it's a woman and she has like a Kraft mac and cheese bag and she
00:54:57.940
flicks it. And it's like when you're a suburban mom, but you have a questionable past, like you used to
00:55:03.240
flick like a baggie. And I was like, my whole Instagram feed is suburban moms who joke about how they used to
00:55:09.860
be party girls. And now their mom's living their best life. That is the entirety. Granted, it's all
00:55:15.560
being targeted at me because that's also me, but that, but that is also just the suburbs and kind of
00:55:22.420
where we are. Why would you, why would you even risk alienating this, these people who you could
00:55:30.120
potentially bring over to your side? Because I think they're worried about their children, which
00:55:35.900
ultimately I think will win out, but I don't even know why you would risk it with like a silly
00:55:42.820
body count discourse and all this like slut shaming and, and, and the, the weird stuff we're seeing
00:55:50.440
kind of, um, popping up. But do you think, and I thought about this a lot, do you think it's about
00:55:57.120
disgust? Because when you get to the extremes of the political spectrum, the extreme left are
00:56:04.080
disgusted by the right. They go, these people are racist. Yeah. They're disgusting. They're fascists.
00:56:09.640
They're Nazis. And you can hear when they, when they talk about them, they, they really feel, they
00:56:14.640
almost taste the emotions. And then when you get to the right, you know, they're transing the kids.
00:56:20.560
Yeah. You know, they're disgusting. They're communists. They want to abolish our country. You know, all of
00:56:26.120
the, that's what we're getting from both sides. It's like visceral disgust.
00:56:31.680
And yet it's not what I experienced. I think the best thing that's happened to me being, uh,
00:56:39.960
living in the suburbs and being weirdly one foot very in the discourse and one foot not is that
00:56:48.700
most people have no idea what we're talking about. They're not, they might, if it's invading their
00:56:55.460
schools, I think this is why you're seeing a lot of people leaving New York, uh, LA and going to
00:57:01.280
states that are more purple or red. And, but otherwise it's like, they talk about how the
00:57:06.840
pool is down in the HOA, you know, Facebook group and what their kids are going to be for
00:57:13.940
Halloween. And, and this is only, again, only my experience. I don't, I don't think normal
00:57:20.640
people are, I think the, they are more in the center. They're just naturally, people have
00:57:28.660
different ideological beliefs and they are still neighbors and friends and go to barbecues together.
00:57:37.260
So I'm not, this is something that I've been really fascinated with lately too, is observing
00:57:44.140
how it seems like the very online people and that discourse is, is getting away from the people who are
00:57:52.820
not very online and living very much in the world in, in kind of an accelerated way. It seems like
00:57:59.640
they're, the realities are splitting completely. Like the language that people use who are very
00:58:07.040
online and the things that they talk about. Nobody, if I walked around my suburb and knocked on every
00:58:11.960
door, how many people do you think would have ever heard of bronze age, bronze age pervert?
00:58:16.360
I don't, I don't think I've had a point. Exactly. You guys are very online. And this is a person who's
00:58:22.860
very online, who's got, had a 30, number 33 on Amazon for a minute, at least bestselling book that,
00:58:29.840
um, and people talk about this, like it's an argument. That's the, my point is I think we're
00:58:36.920
arguing about things online and they'll feel like they have to, um, like push back again.
00:58:46.340
His arguments are somehow contend with this. And it's like, no one's ever heard of this person
00:58:51.300
other than people online, people who are very online. And that separation is really interesting
00:58:57.980
to me because I'm not sure what that looks like even in a year as, as we enter into the, because
00:59:05.620
the things that I do hear about in the suburbs from people who are now choosing to homeschool
00:59:12.620
their kids and pulling them out is the gen, the gender stuff. And as Helen Joyce was just on
00:59:18.020
walk-ins welcome our podcast, and she's like, this breaks everything. It was so eye open, you know, the
00:59:24.500
way she's so clear and brilliant and just saying how it's breaking everything. It's just, it, it, it really
00:59:31.580
does. It's the tip of the spear, which is why everyone spends so much time talking about it. And it breaks
00:59:38.220
democracies, it breaks norms, it breaks families apart. And you see people wrestling with not
00:59:45.780
wanting their children exposed to this crap and how, if the minute that it happens in a school,
00:59:51.580
they're pulling their kid out of school and starting a homeschooling pod. And even people
00:59:56.600
on the left are libertarians are starting their own little preschools because they don't want their
01:00:01.300
kids exposed to this. So that is the one area where I actually feel like it's, it's, it's really
01:00:15.260
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01:00:47.580
But you know what you've just said really gives me hope Bridget because it really, really does
01:00:52.800
because there's always going to be these people who are very online, like all of us are. But the
01:00:58.820
fact that there's the majority who are just living their lives, raising their families,
01:01:04.560
having their careers, having relationships, that's what life really is about. To me, there is nothing
01:01:11.920
more wonderful than when I go for a meal with a friend or I go for a drink and they don't want to
01:01:17.380
talk about this. And I'm like, oh, that's amazing. You know, we all talk about the cost of food.
01:01:23.260
Yeah. That's what everyone talks about everywhere. How expensive food is every single city state that
01:01:29.140
I go in when I was back east with my family, when I was on the west coast with all my family out there
01:01:35.320
recently when I it's like everywhere I go, that's what everyone's talking about is how expensive food
01:01:40.400
is got. Because it's really important. And yet we're being gas lit and told like, oh, everything's
01:01:46.320
great. Bidenomics is amazing. And like, you guys are just imagining that you're poor. You know,
01:01:52.820
it's a weird, that's what real people are talking about. But I disagree with you guys, though. The
01:01:58.980
elite discourse is always separated from the ordinary person and always has been. And yet that is what
01:02:05.180
determines reality. I mean, I don't know if you saw this post-BLM, the top 100 standard and poor
01:02:10.520
corporations. Did you see this? No. They made 300,000 new hires. Six percent of them were white.
01:02:25.920
Right. So once this ideology becomes embedded in institutions and corporations and schools,
01:02:33.160
et cetera, the fact that Joe Bloggs down the road is doing is barbecuing and not paying attention to
01:02:39.560
any of it. It does not mean that Joe Bloggs down the road is not getting hired for a job on merit.
01:02:44.780
His children aren't being taught trans ideology in school, et cetera. This elite discourse,
01:02:49.620
this is always the way the Bolsheviks were a tiny minority. Right. Right. But they were motivated.
01:02:54.880
They were united. They were driven. They were passionate. They had a strong ideology.
01:02:58.960
This is why I've always opposed wokeness, because look at what it's done. Yeah.
01:03:04.020
Yeah. Look at what it's done. And so the fact that ordinary people aren't paying attention,
01:03:08.920
good for their mental health, I guess. Yeah. Right. But it's not protecting them from being
01:03:14.660
affected by it in real life. And it's not just a trans issue. The re-racialization of society is a
01:03:20.040
big problem. Yeah. It's a big problem. I don't know if you saw, there was this amazing piece about how
01:03:26.440
the title, I think, was Complex Systems Won't Survive the Competency Crisis, the Competence Crisis. And it's about
01:03:32.300
how artificial diversity essentially is causing airplane accidents and all of this other stuff
01:03:39.080
because people aren't being hired because they're good at the job. They're being hired because they
01:03:42.880
tick boxes. These things affect real world stuff. It's the only reason I care about it. You know,
01:03:49.240
I've never been interested in having online fights about things that don't matter, but this stuff
01:03:53.220
affects reality. It really does. Yeah. No, absolutely. I'm not saying it doesn't,
01:03:58.620
but I don't, I don't know. Then, then, yeah, I think that is why people are increasingly
01:04:06.620
becoming radicalized because if you are pushing back against this, this reorganization of the world
01:04:16.540
and reality and you are, you know, they're, they're, it's gone pretty extreme, you, and it's all about
01:04:28.260
power, then the argument that a lot of people on the right make is they have to play, these are the
01:04:33.660
new rules. But then that feels like, um, that's an abdication of responsibility in my, well, it feels
01:04:41.100
very like, uh, okay. So now, yeah, you abdicate every, all your principles too for power. No. And
01:04:51.300
now nobody, and now people are looking around and there's, sure, there's people fighting for power,
01:04:57.280
but there's no real leadership. Who's, who's leading? It was nice to hear your prime minister.
01:05:02.880
I, we were saying a dumpster fire. I'm like, finally, an adult in the room. And we shouldn't
01:05:07.860
get bullied into believing that people can be any sex they want to be. They can't. A man is a man
01:05:13.580
and a woman is a woman. That's just common sense. Like the one world leader who's willing to come out
01:05:20.880
and say, boys and girls are different and we shouldn't be bullied into believing otherwise,
01:05:26.520
which is insane that it's even got to this point. And he's being called a transphobe, a bigot, a
01:05:32.500
fascist, et cetera. And I think it's, but that's leadership to me, you know? And so I don't see very
01:05:40.220
much leadership. I do see a lot of people jockeying for power. And I think the incentive structures
01:05:46.400
online around the discourse are generally, you know, get attention and get clicks. It's not
01:05:52.840
necessarily what's good for America. No, no. We, we all joke what's bad for society is good for us.
01:05:59.440
Yeah. Um, which is not good. You know, that's, it's hard for me to, I don't, I try very hard not to
01:06:08.000
lean into a lot of that outrage cycles and clicks and whatnot, because I don't want to, I don't want
01:06:15.080
to be a part of the problem. And so do we, we try to do that on that happy note, Bridget, we're going
01:06:20.080
to go to locals in a second and ask questions from our supporters before we do. We always end with the
01:06:25.320
same questions, which is what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should
01:06:29.560
be. Nothing. We all need to shut up. Except us, obviously. Subscribe. Yeah. We should all take one of
01:06:40.200
those Vipassana meditations where you don't talk for 10 days. Imagine if the world just did that
01:06:45.520
and everybody just went for 10 days and just didn't. Silent. And silent. We'd either come out
01:06:52.080
better or just significantly. Or insane. Insane. Yeah. Totally out of our minds. Yeah. So nothing
01:06:58.200
would change then. Yeah, exactly. We'd stay insane. Yeah. All right, guys, head on over to Locals
01:07:02.580
where we continue the conversation, including your questions. He will shamelessly and sociopathically
01:07:10.800
lie to continue to gain power. He's a very disciplined psychopath. Left wing Trump. He's much better