00:00:00.000Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantin Kissin. And this is a
00:00:09.740show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest
00:00:14.940today is a social psychologist, Dr. Dina McMillan. Welcome to Trigonometry. Oh, thank you. Thank you
00:00:20.420for having me on. Oh, it's a great pleasure to have you on. Listen, for anyone who's not familiar
00:00:25.240with you, a lot of people will be, but some won't be. Who are you? How are you? Where you are? What
00:00:29.580has been the journey that leads you through life sitting here talking to us? Well, I studied
00:00:35.420social psychology at Stanford University, followed by working in the field and examining the world
00:00:42.880through that lens, which is going to be very relevant to the conversation we're going to have
00:00:48.120today. Yes, it is. You are originally from the United States. You live in Australia now. You've
00:00:55.240worked in a few different disciplines. You've worked with abuse victims. Tell us a little bit
00:00:59.100about that maybe before we get into some of the other stuff well i i worked i still do work in
00:01:05.140domestic violence i have one of the only prevention programs available in the world
00:01:09.280it's called unmasking the abuser and i actually teach the tactics used by abusers during the
00:01:17.100earliest grooming phases of the relationship and because of covid and the strict restrictions here
00:01:23.960in Melbourne during that time, I decided to have a podcast where I took all of my information and
00:01:31.660put it on a podcast. So it's called also called Unmasking the Abuser and it's on all of the
00:01:37.880platforms. Wow. I mean, that sounds incredibly helpful and incredibly valuable because a lot
00:01:44.540of the time, you know, people aren't aware of the fact that they're being groomed. So what are
00:01:49.780these early signs, Dina, that somebody can be aware of when they're getting into this type of
00:01:54.660relationship? Well, the one thing I usually say, if I have a little soundbite, is that look out for
00:02:00.800too much too soon. One of the biggest and most reliable indicators of a potentially abusive
00:02:07.440relationship is speed. That they start from the very beginning talking about the future,
00:02:14.600too many compliments, too many gifts, too much discussion about how we're going to live our
00:02:21.160lives, what kind of kids we're going to have. And it's too soon in the relationship. You barely
00:02:26.320know each other. And by too soon in the relationship, what are we talking about?
00:02:30.940Weeks, months, days? Days, sometimes. Some of these things show up at the very earliest stages,
00:02:38.100It's like someone joking on the first date, you know, oh, we'd have beautiful children, or introducing you after the second date as their girlfriend, or jokingly, oh, this is my future wife, that kind of thing.
00:02:54.060Talking about, oh, we should take holidays together, we should buy a house, oh, if you were with me, we could have such wonderful lives together.
00:03:05.300It sounds like a dream come true, but it's really a nightmare.
00:03:08.100so there's those initials so that's the first red flag and what are other red flags on this
00:03:14.000particular journey well at the same time they're trying to pull you in and talk about your life
00:03:20.360together you notice that something's wrong there's a lot of control that goes on there
00:03:25.960there will be snipes criticism contempt for your beliefs so it's like too much of one and then too
00:03:33.880much of the other. And it starts right away. It starts from the very earliest days.
00:03:41.420It's really interesting. And I recommend the people who are interested in that, check out
00:03:45.420your work on that side of things. Tell us a little bit about some of the other areas you've
00:03:51.600been working on as well, because I think they're probably the main thing we wanted to talk with
00:03:55.620you about today. Well, I also, looking at what happened during this COVID period with the
00:04:02.900violent protests and the divisiveness in the rhetoric that we're hearing, I decided to put
00:04:12.300together a program called Healing the Rift. Because as a social psychologist, we learn a lot
00:04:19.240about the brain, how we learn, how we're influenced, but we also learn flow-on effects.
00:04:24.720And I was looking at the narrative and the focus and the tactics being used in anti-racism programs, and it was very evident to me from the beginning that they would have the exact opposite impact, that they're likely to increase racial divisions.
00:04:46.200So I decided to put together a program called Healing the Rift to talk about bias, because a lot of what is being called racism is actually racial bias based on exposure, based on information.
00:05:03.900and I'm not saying bias doesn't count. It does. But it's much more easily remedied than making
00:05:11.920a conscious choice to disrespect or hate people who are other races. Dina, there's a couple of
00:05:19.300things I want to unpack there. So let's start with the first one. I'll come back to the second one.
00:05:23.340The first one being, and to me it was also self-evident that this would be the consequences,
00:05:28.680but how did you know as a social psychologist that this so-called anti-racism training would
00:05:34.560actually increase racial tension? Well, I knew, and it's interesting because I told my listeners
00:05:41.880for my podcast series, and I'm going to tell your audience now, the same tactics I was seeing
00:05:49.380abusers used to lure in new partners and take over their lives and lead them astray, I was seeing
00:05:58.020social movements do the same thing. So once you recognize the tactics of not just influence,
00:06:06.540but manipulation, gaslighting, once you know those, you can apply them anywhere in your life,
00:06:13.760not just to romantic relationships. And I was seeing the social movements use the same
00:06:19.780manipulative, even abusive tactics to get their message across. Like what? Like what, Dina? Can
00:06:27.040you give us some examples of some of the things that were being done that set off the alarm bells
00:06:32.060for you? Well, one of the simplest examples is having protesters go past restaurants where people
00:06:39.700are sitting outside and eating and forcing them to do the Black Power salute in order not to be
00:06:46.460harassed by the protesters. And as a student of history and as a former military brat who went to
00:06:55.720high school in Germany, I recognize that sort of methodology is something that the Nazis used to
00:07:02.620do. They used to force people to give the Nazi salute. So I looked at that and I thought, you
00:07:09.460know, having a slogan is not the same as having a policy. You know, Black Lives Matter. Yeah,
00:07:16.900well, they do. And I also wanted to quickly explain to your British audience why that's
00:07:23.600such a big deal. In the States, there is sometimes among very biased law enforcement,
00:07:34.320the use of a term NHI, whenever blacks are involved in a crime. And that means no humans
00:07:41.780involved. And if you study the judicial system, you'll see a lot of disparity between what happens
00:07:51.120to a white person who commits a crime and what happens to a black person who commits a crime
00:07:57.100so that is where the impetus came for a you know a movement like black lives matter
00:08:03.620but they took a slogan and an issue and everything they did made it worse
00:08:10.120so you're saying everything they did made it worse can you give us some examples please
00:08:15.000um violent protests having 245 violent protests often taking place in black communities so
00:08:25.100encouraging people who are frustrated with their lives first of all to look outward for the problem
00:08:32.120let's blame it all on the police let's burn down city hall let's burn down the stores let's loot
00:08:41.160the stores in our neighborhoods, how in the world is that going to make people less racist?
00:08:49.140Billions of dollars of damage. How in the world is that going to make people less racist?
00:08:55.840It's a good point, Dina. Their counter argument would be, look, you know, we've tried peaceful
00:09:00.440process before. This hasn't happened. We need to do extreme measures in order for our aims to be,
00:09:06.140you know, fulfilled. Yes. But it's the same. You cannot threaten people to accept you.
00:09:15.780And I have also, as someone who works with relationships, not just abusive ones, but
00:09:21.640healthy ones too, I've never seen anything work if the effort is only on one side. So now we have
00:09:29.200a movement that's teaching whites that all of you are racist, all of you are wrong, being white
00:09:35.000equals being a white supremacist with no effort expected on the black community to look at
00:09:41.600what are we doing that is leading us to these poor results? Is there anything we can do to improve?
00:09:49.140There's not a lot of emphasis on that. And that is always a problem.
00:09:53.860And I want to talk about your solutions and your approaches in a second. But
00:09:58.080you mentioned the difference between racism and racial bias. Can you break that down for
00:10:06.300us and our audience? Because that is a distinction that is rarely made.
00:10:11.420Well, it's rarely made. And it's funny because I'm putting together some short YouTube videos
00:10:16.180and my first one is going to be called Why You're Not a Racist. And the simple reason is because
00:10:23.480they switched the definition. Racism used to be a conscious choice where you said my race is
00:10:30.820superior, all other races are inferior, I disrespect, I dislike, I even mean harm to those
00:10:37.380other groups. Now they've switched it to if you have a certain tone of skin, you absolutely must
00:10:44.680be racist. Now that doesn't mean there isn't racial bias. We have a lot of messages, social
00:10:51.080messages built into our environment that show Blacks one way, Whites another way, and that can
00:11:00.220lead to bias. Bias is just a predisposition, positive or negative, against a person or a group.
00:11:11.540So you can be, I'll give you an example. Over this COVID period, for some reason, I've been
00:11:18.700meeting all these wonderful women named Carol or Carolyn. So I recently had an interview with
00:11:26.560a woman who's writing a chapter in a book I've been asked to write a chapter in, and her name
00:11:31.140is Carol. So I apologized to her because I was positively predisposed towards her even before
00:11:38.280she said a word because I've met all these wonderful Carols and Carolins. It can be positive
00:11:43.640too but bias is just having a little bit of your mind made up before you actually even interact
00:11:52.980with that person that's not the same as disrespect dislike and even an intention to harm
00:12:01.460but isn't the problem as well the fact that you know we're just more biased towards people who
00:12:08.920look like us, sound like us, come from similar communities. So then when you have someone who
00:12:14.640comes from a different community who looks different, it's going to be more of a challenge
00:12:19.180for them to get the job than somebody who is different to them. So wouldn't that feel like
00:12:27.400racism as well? The fact that they're always having to prove themselves and do a little bit
00:12:32.100more to secure a position and so on and so forth. Absolutely. All of us have bias. Every person has
00:12:38.500a bias. And it's based, the foundation of bias is a perception of us and them. So the solution
00:12:48.680is pretty simple. In my program, we go through a few exercises you can do to widen the scope
00:12:55.400of what you consider us. So as long as you see someone as them, you're not going to utilize as
00:13:04.000much cognitive energy to process that person. You'll make up your mind more quickly. You'll
00:13:09.920be way more heavily any mistakes that they make. But you can stop yourself in the middle,
00:13:16.660take a deep breath and reprocess that. It's not even that hard.
00:13:21.480And what level do you go to? Because to me, that sounds like a good argument for
00:13:26.920like a nation state, let's say, like we can all come to America and we can all say,
00:13:33.100well I'm an American or we can all come to Britain and we can say well we're all British and that way
00:13:38.700the divisions within the country potentially become less important because we're all British
00:13:43.980doesn't matter what our skin color is our religion we're all British but then the problem is if we
00:13:48.320say well we're all British then we're sort of legally obliged to hate the French and then we
00:13:52.520right and then we start a war and then before you know it you're in world war three so how far do
00:13:59.380you take this expansion of what you perceive as your tribe well what happens though is once you
00:14:06.080start to expand who you see as your tribe you're not as inclined to just go to war with people
00:14:12.400all it will take is a few nice french people to come over with some wine you know some nice
00:14:18.680nice little nibblies and all of a sudden they're not them anymore they're they start to kind of be
00:14:24.680us. And you start talking about, you know, we decent people against the bad people. And it
00:14:32.120changes. Now, I grew up military. I mentioned that. One of the things that's really interesting
00:14:37.240growing up military is when you live on a base, all of your neighbors don't look like you.
00:14:44.480You have a lot of intermarriage where military people go overseas and marry someone from that
00:14:49.540country. You're assigned housing. So you're not allowed to use your own bias to determine what
00:14:56.260neighborhood you live in. And it's interesting how many of those divisions start to mitigate
00:15:04.640once you live next door to people. So that's not, you know, the Vietnamese people are a real problem.
00:15:11.140It's, you know, Joe was really there for me when my mom had a heart attack. And, you know, this
00:15:16.680person helped me put my cable up. And it starts to really change your idea about us and them.
00:15:23.840So I did have an advantage going into social psychology based on the fact that I'm an army
00:15:29.700brat. And I think I already know the answer to this question. So what do you think of
00:15:34.700initiatives like anti-biased training, somebody coming in and leading a training program? Do you
00:15:40.320agree with that? Or do you think it needs to be done more organically? Well, one of the reasons
00:15:44.800I developed my own anti-bias program is because a lot of the anti-bias programs that I was seeing
00:15:52.180were actually anti-white programs, and that's not the same thing. I wanted no blame and shame
00:15:59.640talking about the fact that we all have biases, looking at examples that have nothing to do with
00:16:06.040skin tone. You know, my sister, Ia, who lives in Minneapolis, she did some of the training with me
00:16:12.480over your summer. And she uses an example of having a bias against a guy who was applying
00:16:20.120for a job because his shoes weren't shined and coming from a military family, we were taught
00:16:25.480that was a sign of disrespect. Now, talking about somebody's shoes has absolutely nothing to do with
00:16:31.020racism. I think a lot of the anti-bias programs that we have put the onus completely on whites
00:16:40.000to change their thinking without any acknowledgement that, first of all, some of the bias is always
00:16:46.420going to be there because we're more comfortable with people who think like we do and believe like
00:16:52.540we do. And also, they don't really, when you're starting on the back foot, you're not necessarily
00:16:58.840going to be very open to the teachings. I just think that they start off with, you know, all
00:17:05.520white people are bad i would hate that i felt like as a black person i had to come forward
00:17:12.140because i can't stand bullying i don't care who it's against and i saw white i never thought this
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00:18:50.560Do you think part of the problem is, Dina, is that because we've all moved forward as
00:18:56.580a society, we're more tolerant. Look, there's still a way to go. Racism still obviously
00:18:59.960exists and no one would deny that but isn't part of the problem for a lot of black people especially
00:19:05.660older black people you know living in the 80s the 70s the 60s they've experienced real racism
00:19:11.920real bigotry that in a way isn't this just unprocessed trauma as well absolutely absolutely
00:19:21.020and it's it's really interesting I use an example and I've been talking to some of my colleagues in
00:19:26.040the States about this. And it's led to some interesting conversations. When I first moved
00:19:31.660to Australia in 2004, I had family come and visit me, but I didn't go back to the States for two
00:19:40.000years. Now, my family, my dad had retired to Tucson, Arizona. And I thought, oh, it's just,
00:19:45.800it's okay. Kind of unfriendly, but it's okay. I went back after two years in Australia where
00:19:51.800people didn't assume I was dangerous. People didn't assume that they knew everything about
00:19:57.400me when they saw my skin tone. And I didn't realize how much it had changed me beyond my
00:20:03.640conscious awareness. And Constantine, that's what I mean about the different areas of the brain that
00:20:08.240process information. I went to Tucson and it was a totally different place for me.
00:20:14.540Everywhere I went, everyone was talking to me. Whether I went to a restaurant or a cafe or
00:20:19.940you know the checkout line um at the chemists everyone was suddenly so friendly and the
00:20:28.100political situation hadn't changed the only thing that had changed was me and you can hear you could
00:20:34.800not look at me and say oh i'm sure she lives in australia i sound like i just arrived yesterday
00:20:40.500i still sound very american they had no way of knowing but my non-verbal behavior my lack of
00:20:48.600defensiveness made a huge difference in how people interacted with me. So while we're trying to get
00:20:55.860rid of bias and racism and whatever else negative that we want to get rid of, let's teach both sides.
00:21:03.600Let's teach people who've been discriminated against how to relax when they're interacting
00:21:09.980with people, have an expectation of acceptance and see what happens. Well, Dina, one of the
00:21:15.960things you mentioned it and actually it was something we were talking about before we started
00:21:19.920so let's get into it now because I think it's a crucial piece of this. We are having what I mean
00:21:25.760could be described as an intellectual discussion here right? Not one our type partner. Correct but
00:21:31.500when I'm involved we're having an intellectual discussion but what you are really talking about
00:21:38.580and this is something I found very powerful and very interesting about your approach which is why
00:21:43.420we were so keen to get you onto the show is that you talk essentially about the fact that you cannot
00:21:50.100convince people of what you are saying logically. We like to joke on the show about destroying
00:21:56.760people with facts and logic. And essentially, your senses or your experiences and your belief
00:22:03.940as a professional, that doesn't change minds because this stuff is taught at the level of
00:22:11.160emotion. Talk to us about that. Yes. Well, one of the things that I teach, even in the seminars
00:22:17.700that I do for 13, 14-year-olds, I use Paul McLean's triune brain theory. Now, there's a little bit of
00:22:27.680controversy about it as being too simplistic, but I find it to be a wonderful device because it
00:22:33.300basically divides the brain into three parts and talks about the fact that they process information
00:22:39.640differently and all at the same time. Now, if you look at, and what is really fascinating is that
00:22:47.400most of us are so attached to our neocortex, our intellectual brain, the language part of our brain,
00:22:55.340but it's only responsible for between 5 to 8 percent of our life decisions. The other 88 to
00:23:03.88095% are made using primarily the limbic brain, which is the emotion center, and our reptilian
00:23:12.600brain, which is the primal reactive part of our minds. So when people have a belief that motivates
00:23:20.420them, that they cling to, that means that that belief has gone into their limbic mind, and it
00:23:27.080may even have been fear-based or desire-based and therefore in the reptilian brain. So if we're
00:23:34.600going to change their thinking and their attachment, if we're going to dislodge this
00:23:39.560error in thinking, we have to use the same sort of mechanisms that implanted and embedded that
00:23:46.200information in those parts of the brain. So in other words, if feelings don't care about your
00:23:51.760facts how do you convince people to listen to what you're saying which is yes bias exists yes
00:24:01.840prejudice exists but saying all why people are evil isn't the way to solve bias and it's actually
00:24:07.640going to make it worse because let's be honest it's been going on for quite a while a lot of us
00:24:12.600have been saying this is bad this doesn't work this reminds us of certain bad things and it's
00:24:18.060only accelerating. So how do you do it? We have to get together and do more than just discuss it.
00:24:24.520We have to use the influence mechanisms that are the most effective. We have to use
00:24:29.780storytelling. We have to get role models. We have to use role play. We have to use music,
00:24:38.300music lyrics. We have to use all of these mechanisms. Um, the, what I call the three
00:24:45.640A's, which is attention, admiration, and acclaim. So we have to use who gets an award or a reward,
00:24:55.560who gets the attention about something. We have to use the same influence mechanisms that the
00:25:01.460other side used to make people believe these things, to dislodge these things.
00:25:08.400To give us something a bit more concrete on that front, what are you talking about exactly?
00:25:13.240Well, you look at who gets the attention, okay? Carolyn M. West is a professor at the University of Washington, and she is helping me with a revision of my original book called Buddy Says He Loves Me, where I outline the tactics used by abusers, and we are specifically targeting Black women in America.
00:25:35.780And she has worked her whole career on this. And we've been talking about the imagery projected by things like Cardi B and Cardi B's popularity and the fact that Cardi B was the one black woman selected to speak to then candidate Joe Biden.
00:25:55.440When you do things like that, it's like saying, okay, who gets to actually have a public audience with the queen where it gets lots of publicity?
00:26:07.360That has a huge impact on what those primal parts, the emotional parts and primal parts of our brain perceive as important.
00:26:17.600Even if we intellectually dismiss it, those parts of the brain are more powerful than our intellect.
00:26:24.460And they don't have a filter. So they take it all in. And our brain is programmed, pre-programmed to adapt. So we start first by being less shocked and then by being more accepting of these values.
00:26:41.160So I'm looking at all of this. Cardi B, really? That's the black woman, not a black scientist, not a young black girl who's, you know, worked hard in her community to improve things for the average person living there.
00:26:56.820the role model is a woman who is a former stripper who talks about having robbed her johns and
00:27:05.240presents herself in the most pornographic way possible this is who they have held up as
00:27:12.220an icon for young black girls would you not argue though dina that is a sign of racism though
00:27:18.700because what it's saying is you know for example that that is all that that particular
00:27:25.200intersectional community are capable of. For example, that's the thing that we should uphold
00:27:30.180about them, not, you know, the business owners, the intellectuals, the academics, etc, etc.
00:29:13.080in many black people, but seeing the example of a, of an Aisha, a Canby, or a Naniya Falarin
00:29:19.600Iman, or a Zubi, or a Glenn Lowry, or yourself, or other people we've got in the pipeline,
00:29:25.740I think opens their mind somewhat. Is that one of the things that we all ought to be doing is giving,
00:29:31.920you know, a voice and a platform to people like that? Absolutely, because attention is part of it.
00:29:37.280One of the ways of processing information, how our primal child brain that still makes a lot of our decisions, it is so important who gets the attention, who gets to actually tell their story.
00:39:39.580In fact, it's one of the reasons when I do my Unmasking the Abuser workshops, I have
00:39:45.220a segment that I've had to include teaching women how to say no.
00:39:51.340Because most of the time, if the abuser is able to cry, tell a story about their hard life, make them feel like you're only picking on me because I'm whatever, the woman will back down.
00:40:05.660And I have to teach them not to do that because women are socialized differently.
00:40:12.460You reminded me of one of our very first ever interviews with a guy who doesn't have much profile called Jeremy Shapiro.
00:40:20.160And when we asked him our last question, which we'll ask you, which is what's the one thing we're not talking about that we should be, he said the power of the media and he wasn't talking about the mainstream media, just the media in general, whether that's social media, YouTube, the mainstream media, whatever, to create impressions and ideas in people through a story.
00:40:47.280even if every night for the rest of your life,
00:40:49.700CNN runs a story about a bear eating somebody,
00:40:53.800that does not mean that you are in danger of being eaten by bears
00:40:57.380because the statistics show that bear attacks are almost non-existent.
00:41:01.800But if CNN or Fox News or both of them still run that story every night,
00:41:07.460people are going to be terrified of bears.
00:41:10.020I remember actually doing an NLP course a long, long time ago and the guy who was running it saying how Jaws was a great, great movie for him because suddenly people living in the sort of flyover states of America had a terrible phobia of sharks and he was making loads of money curing it.
00:41:29.540And so how much of this is really about the fact that we live in a technological society now where if you see one person being badly treated, then by, let's say, a black person badly treated by a police officer, we're not capable of contextualizing that with enough data and enough research and enough other stories and also understanding why police behave the way that they behave.
00:41:56.200we just go like I would not want that to happen to my son or to my daughter or to my brother and
00:42:02.600to my father and therefore I don't care about all that other stuff there's the narrative you know
00:42:07.460the police are evil you know this is what we need to do how much of all of this is simply the fact
00:42:12.260that as you talk that primitive part of the brain just goes well that's why I am absolutely
00:42:19.400determined and I'm hoping to by doing publicity like this I can get some benefactors I can get
00:42:25.680and sponsors and support, once people understand how our brain works and how, no matter how
00:42:33.120intellectually intelligent you are, the parts of our brain that influence our emotions and influence
00:42:39.440those primal responses have no filter and will adapt. They have been pre-programmed in our DNA
00:42:46.580to adapt, you become much more protective of what you allow in your brain. So it's something that
00:42:56.340everybody needs to know. I can explain it to kids and they get it. And it absolutely works. But I
00:43:02.920know it's disappointing, but the first thing they told us when we got to graduate school
00:43:07.640was knowledge of a phenomenon will not make you immune to its effects. And I need to show people
00:43:14.760why that's true, why when shows and programs and social media sites are supporting values or
00:43:23.940telling stories with values, when the music has values that go against what you believe to be
00:43:29.640right and true, why you have to turn it off? Why telling yourself, oh, but it's got a good beat,
00:43:35.840or I watched that show because I like that one character. No, you can't do that. You have to
00:43:43.140protect your brain is that really true though i mean look i'm i'll be i'll be honest with you
00:43:48.860give you an example right i'm i think all of us actually would i don't know i don't want to
00:43:54.280slander anyone but i'm a big fan of gangster rap right i've never shot up anyone i've never sold
00:44:00.940drugs i've like none of the things that they talk about in the rap lyrics i've ever done or been
00:44:07.440tempted to do ever, but it has a good beat to it. And it's going into your mind. But I haven't done
00:44:15.320anything, have I? No, not yet. Because you're not in the circumstances that allow that. But again,
00:44:22.200when you're buying music, when you're supporting the music, what are you supporting? And what
00:44:27.320about people who are more sensitive? What about people who are in those circumstances? What about
00:44:32.700situations where a decision has to be made in a split second. None of us are immune. I know it's
00:44:44.840boring to say this, but I don't advocate for anything I don't do myself. I am very careful
00:44:51.420about what I allow my brain to normalize. Even in programs that I like, films that I like,
00:44:58.780if they are advocating for values that i don't believe in i turn it off
00:45:03.520really i know how my brain works my intellect my knowledge will not protect me
00:45:09.960because i'm not in control of the majority of the my brain that makes my life decisions i'm just not
00:45:17.180that's it i mean i've never heard this this argument espoused but it's now in your head