TRIGGERnometry - Cancelled Comedian Speaks Out

00:00:00.000 Great to be back at London's foremost Nazi comedy night.

00:00:06.000 I don't know if you've followed certain sections of the media,

00:00:09.000 but this is where all the hip, young Nazis hang out, so that's cool.

00:00:12.000 If Hitler came back, this is what he'd do, by the way,

00:00:14.000 he'd start a monthly comedy night on a Tuesday.

00:00:20.000 He'd warm me up with a few dick jokes and bam, hit you with the juice stuff.

00:00:30.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kissing.

00:00:35.100 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:39.820 Our brilliant guest today is a comedian and a friend of ours from Comedy Circuit Days, Nick Dixon. Welcome to the show.

00:00:45.100 Good to be here. How's it going?

00:00:46.340 It's great to have you on. Listen, we obviously know you very well, but for anyone who doesn't know you, tell everybody a little bit about who you are, how are you, where you are, what has been the journey through life that leads you to be sitting here talking to us?

00:00:56.720 wow the journey okay i'm nick dixon i'm a comedian uh and i do things like gb news

00:01:04.740 write for spiked but talk radio all the things that the comedy world hates i do them all and

00:01:10.620 um the journey to know i just uh i started doing comedy 10 years ago doing open mics like everyone

00:01:15.840 else with mentally ill people and then i um and then you moved up to the circuit with mentally

00:01:22.000 with other mentally ill people getting paid slightly more yeah yeah and that's how it works

00:01:25.940 and now I'm here today.

00:01:27.200 What a journey it's been.

00:01:28.220 With mentally ill people.

00:01:29.340 Yeah, right, exactly.

00:01:30.520 So, yeah, it's just different levels, isn't it?

00:01:32.640 But, yeah, that's about it.

00:01:33.820 I mean, you know, that's the whole story.

00:01:35.880 I do comedy and other bits.

00:01:38.720 Short podcast, wasn't it?

00:01:41.160 Nailed it.

00:01:42.480 But listen, the reason we wanted to get you on,

00:01:44.700 I haven't been doing any comedy for the last two years.

00:01:47.180 Francis is working up towards doing it at all,

00:01:50.020 but, again, hasn't really been doing the circuit.

00:01:52.360 Right.

00:01:52.620 And because of that, that distance, I think,

00:01:54.900 has given me like a layman's perspective almost where i'm like looking on twitter or turning on

00:02:00.820 the tv once in a blue moon and seeing like new the new version of the mash report and just going

00:02:06.960 like the question i think a lot of our audience have in their mind is like why is comedy on tv

00:02:11.880 so shit yeah well i know what you mean it's there's this there's this divide now isn't there

00:02:18.700 between i'll tell you what there's a really interesting thing the other night we were doing

00:02:21.740 a Comedy Unleashed pilot.

00:02:23.320 Do your audience know

00:02:23.840 what Comedy Unleashed is?

00:02:24.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:02:25.100 Okay, so...

00:02:25.740 But it's worth it

00:02:26.480 because we've got fans

00:02:27.680 in America.

00:02:27.720 It's a free speech comedy

00:02:28.820 night in London.

00:02:29.600 Yeah, done.

00:02:30.440 Yeah, it's a free...

00:02:31.140 We were doing it

00:02:32.080 in East London

00:02:32.600 in Bethnal Green.

00:02:33.760 It was quite interesting.

00:02:34.360 We were filming a pilot

00:02:35.620 to try and get on the TV

00:02:36.820 and on the same night,

00:02:37.980 by chance,

00:02:38.760 I found out it's by pure chance,

00:02:40.120 they were filming

00:02:40.760 Live at the Apollo

00:02:41.580 in West London

00:02:42.560 over in Hammersmith

00:02:43.820 and I was like,

00:02:44.580 this is the divide

00:02:45.720 in live comedy.

00:02:47.140 So you've got the divide

00:02:48.100 between the BBC,

00:02:49.860 which is, you know,

00:02:50.700 some of the comedians are good but it's the criticism would be why are people on there

00:02:55.440 are they good enough to be on there and then you've got us over here trying to do our thing

00:02:58.520 and there's criticism of both of them but that's this weird divide in live comedy where people

00:03:03.000 like you say people think the comedy on bbc is a bit rubbish so we're trying to do something

00:03:07.840 different but to be fair i'm trying to be really fair there are actually some good comedians on

00:03:12.380 that as well i wasn't saying there aren't brilliant comedians on the bbc what i'm saying is

00:03:16.580 the standard of some of the things that you see on there is very low way too low for a production

00:03:23.020 with that sort of budget with access to every comedian that they could possibly want they don't

00:03:28.460 seem to be picking the best is all i'm saying in every position it's like a football team that's

00:03:33.100 got a great striker but the defense is useless for example right i mean yeah i know you mean

00:03:38.940 i've been in i've been in huge trouble for suggesting that we should just pick comedians

00:03:43.280 based on their ability alone as individuals.

00:03:46.720 I got in trouble for that.

00:03:47.600 I know it's a crazy idea, isn't it?

00:03:49.060 That's controversial now.

00:03:50.700 But yeah, I suppose, yeah, I mean, look,

00:03:52.560 I try and stay out of it now.

00:03:53.500 I just do my thing.

00:03:54.820 But yeah, there is a criticism that the BBC

00:03:56.480 are not picking the best people

00:03:58.180 because they're using other criteria to select them.

00:04:02.560 I don't know.

00:04:02.780 What do you think the reason is?

00:04:04.500 I'm being very cautious.

00:04:06.420 That's what I'm saying.

00:04:07.120 When I was in the game, right,

00:04:09.280 I sort of had an idea of what that was.

00:04:11.500 But it's been two years.

00:04:12.360 i genuinely don't know uh all i see if in my own experience and this is again i maybe i was a

00:04:18.300 little bit too full on when i said oh it's shit and whatever some of it is shit but my main thing

00:04:23.420 is i'm seeing people on tv that when i used to run a comedy club would email me in to ask for

00:04:29.500 an open spot and i would say you're not quite ready yeah and i'm seeing those people now on

00:04:35.120 television yeah and they haven't really improved right so the question i think for me is how has

00:04:42.400 that happened but for an ordinary person who just watches tv and thinks that's what comedy is i think

00:04:47.760 they're asking themselves how is this happening yeah yeah and it's obviously because there are

00:04:52.180 other criteria there might be other reasons they get picked other than their ability then they've

00:04:55.800 got the right agent you know they're the right flavor of the month type thing whatever the

00:05:00.720 reasons are and i'm sort of you can tell i'm slightly reluctant to speculate on them because

00:05:04.060 I got cancelled for doing almost exactly that quite recently it is still quite recent so I still I'm

00:05:10.020 still feeling that pain so I'm kind of being a bit cautious on saying what the reasons are but we can

00:05:14.240 all imagine what they may be but they're not always who the best comedians are some of them are and

00:05:18.900 then they get through and then you can play if you complain about it like well what about this guy

00:05:22.420 and they cite one person yeah who is like is actually good and you're like oh yeah fair enough

00:05:27.180 so you know you can you sound you sound bitter talking about it and I'm not busy because I'm

00:05:31.340 not even trying to get on that stuff. But yeah, there's definitely a lowering of quality on the

00:05:37.040 BBC. And they've seen it in the viewing figures. Apollo used to be a big deal, didn't it, with

00:05:41.000 Michael McIntyre. Everyone watched it. Now it's something that is on BBC2, isn't it? And barely

00:05:47.000 anyone watches it. Well, certainly the viewing figures have gone through the floor. Why do you

00:05:53.680 think there are certain acts who are genuinely, legitimately brilliant that we see week in, week

00:05:59.140 out and they do very very well but television isn't interested in them they don't even get a

00:06:04.580 sniff of it yeah they're not seen as sort of viable it tends to be older acts who have been

00:06:09.760 going on time they're very good but they're not new they're not they're not cool and they're not

00:06:14.420 got the right agent and they're not the right you know they might not be diverse whatever it is so

00:06:19.540 that's what it comes down to mainly isn't it and um and a lot of people notice this difference

00:06:24.000 between uk and america where in america they seem to respect comics who've been going along

00:06:29.080 time who are really good and we don't have that we just don't have that we don't actually respect

00:06:33.980 stand-up as a medium in this country it's not the end of the world i'm not going to write an open

00:06:37.780 letter but you know we just don't respect it we've seen with norm mcdonald people like that we've seen

00:06:42.040 louis ck before the incident or the respect bill burr the respect that people have for comedians

00:06:48.200 in america for stand-up it's an american medium so they have massive respect for stand-ups who've

00:06:52.360 been going a long time and like really good and like killers and it's all about are you are you

00:06:56.400 killer in the clubs we just don't have that here we don't have any respect for that I don't think

00:07:00.160 and why do you why do you think that is why do you think we don't respect the people who've been

00:07:04.920 doing it for donkey's years who then are just master craftsmen at what they do yeah I don't

00:07:11.800 know I generally just think it's we just don't understand the medium in America there's a

00:07:15.400 tradition going from like Richard Pryor onwards this kind of confessional medium it's an American

00:07:20.840 medium we just don't have that I don't know where stand up in this country I'm not sure where it

00:07:24.620 comes from it's a mixture of like music hall working men's clubs and then there's like the

00:07:29.520 Oxford satire tradition there's these different traditions but we just don't seem to respect

00:07:33.660 stand-up we don't I don't think we really know what it is I don't think TV but they discovered

00:07:37.260 what it is with Michael McIntyre I don't think they really get it and I don't I don't think they

00:07:41.200 get what great comedy is and that actually the audience would love to see these people we've

00:07:45.840 all seen in the clubs who smash it who are older probably they'd love to see them the audience but

00:07:51.720 they just don't get a chance because tv people are only interested in who the new cool person is

00:07:56.540 it's interesting because we talk about representation a lot and we were just

00:08:01.060 talking about this here in the studio before you came but actually like someone a comedian that

00:08:06.740 nobody watching this will have heard of like jeff innocent is is an older white guy right

00:08:13.080 he he represents way more people than i don't know a russian immigrant or whoever else but

00:08:19.380 But me being on that would be considered diversity,

00:08:23.880 whereas him wouldn't, or would be considered representation.

00:08:27.000 Do you see what I'm getting at?

00:08:28.280 There's a big constituency there that I would argue

00:08:30.860 is probably underserved by what's happening at the moment.

00:08:33.380 Yeah, yeah, because, I mean, reality is it's something

00:08:35.600 like an 80-something percent white country.

00:08:37.440 He would probably talk to loads of people in a country,

00:08:39.660 but, yes, but he wouldn't be allowed on, probably.

00:08:42.720 So that's why we get things like other channels, isn't it?

00:08:45.300 Probably like GB News and all these other channels,

00:08:46.900 because the BBC is arguably not serving people,

00:08:50.040 even though that's their job

00:08:51.600 and we're all giving them money to do it, right?

00:08:55.220 We pay for it, don't we?

00:08:56.440 I mean, unless you just don't pay,

00:08:58.320 which we won't go into.

00:09:00.380 But, you know, that's why...

00:09:02.200 You realise this is going on the internet.

00:09:03.520 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:09:04.000 No, I pay, I pay.

00:09:05.500 I'm saying there's other people in the country,

00:09:08.480 I've heard,

00:09:09.600 you just don't let anyone in when they come to the door.

00:09:12.540 But actually, will people in other countries,

00:09:14.020 if the people are watching in other countries,

00:09:15.120 would they even understand the licence fee?

00:09:16.900 It's such a bizarre thing to try and explain, isn't it,

00:09:19.060 to other countries.

00:09:19.980 It's like, well, basically, they come around

00:09:21.980 and they make you pay to watch TV.

00:09:24.140 You're like, I'm sorry?

00:09:25.480 Yeah, and you have to pay it.

00:09:26.740 You have to pay it, yeah, even if you don't want to watch it.

00:09:28.460 Yeah, yeah.

00:09:29.080 Isn't that weird?

00:09:30.280 It's like, we have to pay for this TV channel.

00:09:33.040 Well, it used to be you could go to jail, allegedly,

00:09:35.120 but I'm not sure they got that anymore.

00:09:36.220 But there's a big fine, isn't there?

00:09:37.780 Well, yeah, there is.

00:09:38.700 And they always end up carting some old granny off to the court

00:09:42.820 and putting her up there because she hasn't had the money

00:09:45.080 to pay in the last two years.

00:09:46.700 Yeah, I just find that bonkers. I mean, you're trying to explain that to people. You have to pay this. And what's really extra weird is that all the comedians and people on the BBC then berate the audience for being Brexit voting scum. And it's like, they're paying your wages. Isn't that strange?

00:10:01.300 And are you in favour of the B?

00:10:03.780 Well, I've got to be so careful because there's still a very tiny chance I might get on one day, but I almost certainly won't at this point. Am I in favour of it? I'm not in favour of the license fee model. I think it's anachronistic.

00:10:15.780 and sort of quasi-communist.

00:10:18.060 It doesn't really make any sense.

00:10:19.200 So, I mean, I don't mind the BBC,

00:10:20.820 but I don't see how the license fee can work in 2021.

00:10:25.440 I don't think it can work in 2021.

00:10:27.580 When you look at all the different competitors,

00:10:29.320 when you look at Amazon, when you look at Netflix,

00:10:30.960 when you look at all these different platforms

00:10:33.340 producing really great content,

00:10:35.720 and, you know, the BBC still does some things

00:10:37.800 which are very good,

00:10:39.020 but you look at the vast majority of stuff,

00:10:40.840 taking comedy as an example,

00:10:42.600 and it's low quality.

00:10:44.580 Right, right.

00:10:45.860 And the idea that you have to pay for it now,

00:10:47.760 it just seems out of touch, like you say.

00:10:50.600 Yeah, you've got Netflix, Amazon.

00:10:52.300 Yeah, so I think they'll be in trouble.

00:10:53.760 And that's why you've got GB News.

00:10:55.360 Now you've got Talk TV coming out.

00:10:57.300 You've got other people trying to compete.

00:10:58.900 How do you feel about those channels?

00:11:00.440 Well, we've both been on GB News.

00:11:02.180 I like GB News.

00:11:03.580 You know, there's things that I disagree,

00:11:05.480 you know, that they've done that I disagree with.

00:11:07.200 But there's things that every organisation has done

00:11:10.080 that I disagree with.

00:11:11.360 Why do you think that everybody in comedy

00:11:13.040 sees the start of GB News as the coming of the Fourth Reich

00:11:17.280 or the Fifth Reich or whatever it is.

00:11:18.820 It is bizarre, isn't it?

00:11:20.080 If you look at it.

00:11:21.120 Yeah, Brexit was the Fourth Reich.

00:11:22.280 This is the Fifth Reich.

00:11:23.120 We're on to the Fifth now.

00:11:24.640 Yeah.

00:11:25.080 Or the Six.

00:11:25.780 Oh, I don't know.

00:11:26.520 Isn't that crazy?

00:11:27.220 So you've both been on?

00:11:28.140 Yeah.

00:11:28.440 Yeah, yeah.

00:11:29.440 I'm a regular on there.

00:11:30.540 Are you?

00:11:31.000 Yeah, and I make sure to tweet it as well

00:11:32.600 so they'll fucking know about it in the industry.

00:11:34.800 Oh, good.

00:11:35.160 I've seen you on there once on I think Mark's show.

00:11:37.520 Yeah, yeah.

00:11:37.980 I've been on quite a few times as well.

00:11:39.560 It's funny, isn't it?

00:11:40.360 The outrage about GB News and all the boycotting and all this stuff,

00:11:45.120 it doesn't make any sense.

00:11:45.940 If you actually look at what it is,

00:11:47.520 it's actually just an incredibly liberal channel, isn't it?

00:11:49.820 It's got free speech.

00:11:51.520 It's got massive diversity.

00:11:53.460 Isn't it just incredibly liberal?

00:11:55.480 Well, if you look at the old school meaning of the term liberal,

00:11:59.240 then I would argue that, yes, it is incredibly liberal.

00:12:01.440 They try and have a plurality of views on there.

00:12:05.160 They have a diversity of presenters.

00:12:08.320 you know you get all different genders races etc etc yeah i'll turn on i'll be like i'll turn on to

00:12:13.980 the dreaded gb news and it's three gay guys and a trans person discussing like vaccine passports

00:12:18.920 openly i'm like what's the problem here guys what have i missed it's like this is not this far right

00:12:23.880 channel you know that and i actually think that they kind of know this this is one of my little

00:12:28.540 theories is they they know that it's not actually that bad but but a certain part of society it

00:12:32.780 just screams loudly if the overton window tries to get pushed an inch to the to another side you

00:12:37.640 know i mean they're like no no and they scream that loudly because they don't want any change

00:12:41.620 was actually if it was if it was really i almost think if it was really bad it would be allowed

00:12:46.040 if you notice how like people like richard spencer seem to be like allowed like they stay on twitter

00:12:50.380 these quite extreme figures whereas something like gb news which is actually not extreme at all

00:12:55.340 it was just meant to be an alternative to the bbc that isn't quite meeting its remit they all scream

00:13:00.300 about it i almost think it's because it's quite moderate that it's actually more of a threat

00:13:05.420 Do you see what I mean?

00:13:06.600 Yeah, so because it's more mainstream,

00:13:09.000 because it actually might appeal to a whole section of society

00:13:11.980 who feel that they've been undeserved,

00:13:13.760 who actually have pretty mainstream opinions,

00:13:16.760 it's more of a credible threat,

00:13:18.060 and therefore it's more likely to be attacked.

00:13:20.040 That's what I think, because why else?

00:13:22.240 I mean, if it's got these terrible viewing figures,

00:13:24.640 they all keep pointing out,

00:13:25.560 oh, GBD, no one watches it, and it's terrible.

00:13:27.720 It's like, why are you talking about it every day then?

00:13:29.620 Do you know what I mean?

00:13:30.740 If it's just rubbish and ignored,

00:13:32.680 why are you constantly tweeting about it?

00:13:34.340 i mean i also think that you're tweeting because you're on it he's i mean it's it's also the fact

00:13:40.480 that i think outrage is just it's rewarded in the current climate if you're outraged about something

00:13:46.300 it's going to get the views the clicks the whatevers um and obviously gb news had some

00:13:51.280 issues with the launch to put it mildly so that that would have contributed but listen let's go

00:13:55.980 back to talking about you a little bit because you mentioned uh being cancelled so to speak

00:14:00.240 yeah uh what happened what did you say nick did you did you say that we need more nazi comedy or

00:14:05.940 that was it yeah yeah i made a big push for nazi comedy

00:14:09.020 where every punchline is it yours yeah yeah they'll just clip that out now all my haters like

00:14:15.820 see um what i did i did a terrible terrible thing guys i um someone messaged me a fan a fan if you

00:14:25.800 like someone tried to get me on a gig which I didn't ask for but they just said out of the

00:14:30.620 kindness of their own heart then they sent me the message and said oh I tried to get you on this gig

00:14:34.560 but here's what the guy said and the guy had said something like I like Nick or I'm aware of Nick

00:14:40.800 he said I'm aware of but quite a big difference he exists uh I believe I believe he exists but

00:14:46.860 but we we're we're not really booking too many straight white men and he said something like I

00:14:53.620 should have got the exact phrase but he said something like for want of a better not that

00:14:56.720 we're going he said I'm we're kind of looking for the opposite and he goes and when I say opposite

00:14:59.860 I don't necessarily mean a gay disabled black woman in a wheelchair or something like that

00:15:03.880 this was it this was not my quote by the way this was his so he goes we're looking for the opposite

00:15:08.520 and we're not really looking for that and I just thought this is a bizarre message and kind of

00:15:12.740 funny so I just shared it with all identifying information taken out right so you couldn't find

00:15:18.960 out who this guy was I just crossed out any possible thing because I'm not in the business

00:15:22.040 of starting pylons against people.

00:15:24.400 So I did that.

00:15:25.280 And I just put it like a very wry tweet.

00:15:27.500 It was something like, I should get it right,

00:15:28.820 but it was something like I dream of a day

00:15:30.300 when I'll be judged on the content of my character

00:15:32.600 or at least the content of my content.

00:15:34.920 So it was a wry allusion to Martin Luther King.

00:15:36.980 You guys get it.

00:15:37.860 But I thought this will get like 40 likes, which it did.

00:15:41.020 And nothing of it, right?

00:15:42.140 It's just a minor tweet.

00:15:43.780 I was like, I received this, pretty funny, you know, nothing.

00:15:46.580 But then the Daily Express picked it up.

00:15:48.660 sorry yeah yeah because you know how this goes

00:15:55.740 the daily express picked it up and then i was like oh so i said a couple of things to them

00:16:00.900 foolishly thinking well i'll just say something and then of course it comes out in a crude sort

00:16:06.260 of tabloidy way and like well i didn't mean it like that and then and it was the headline like

00:16:11.760 something nick dixon says white men can't do comedy yeah exactly exactly yeah straight white

00:16:17.460 man complains that straight white men aren't getting straight white gigs or something like

00:16:20.940 that it was just something ridiculous and I'm like oh and then I was like oh because I thought

00:16:25.840 should I do this nine times out of ten I would say no it's not worth it then I just thought let's

00:16:30.900 just see what happens definitely found out the answer to that but so stuff happened so then so

00:16:36.600 then the the telegraph get in touch with me I'm like oh the telegraph now and I'm like I'm not

00:16:40.680 going to talk to him I'm just not going to talk to anyone and my mate said well they'll just print

00:16:43.900 it anyway which they did then i get a message the next day you're on the jeremy vine show i'm like

00:16:49.300 oh it's on jeremy vine but no not saying and they're defending you which would have been the

00:16:53.260 key piece of information i just got you're now on jeremy vine so it's just escalating and i'm going

00:16:57.680 oh apparently they were defending me and jeff norcott was on there like a legend defending me

00:17:02.300 so actually all both the papers and the and the show defended me but yeah it's just it was just

00:17:09.100 this escalating thing that i don't know if you've been in one of these things you probably have but

00:17:11.840 they get out of control i have you've been in one yeah you know how it just escalates and and you're

00:17:16.880 just thinking what now and you can't really handle it i didn't know how to handle it because you're

00:17:21.260 just one person and the whole whole suddenly the whole comedy industry is attacking me it's a

00:17:25.100 national news story my tweet it's absurd and it just and you don't really know how to handle it

00:17:29.740 i sort of had a stress response because how can your body really process what's going on and even

00:17:34.740 though logically i'm like this is just happening on the internet and i had everything muted

00:17:38.360 logically that's the case but but sort of physiologically i was sort of freaking out it

00:17:43.520 was half me to sleep and stuff because it was like it was really stressful because i had comedians

00:17:47.680 messaging me are you okay you ever had that regularly yeah are you okay in a very different

00:17:52.920 way i saw the last interview on trigonometry are you okay yeah are you sure yeah when i mean used

00:18:00.880 to be such a nice guy yeah yeah one guy messaged me then another friend of ours actually messaged

00:18:05.880 been i thought this guy never asks if i'm okay i won't even say it as well i was like this is

00:18:10.100 there must be a problem do you know what i mean and another friend just goes oh it's just because

00:18:13.780 i saw the chortle piece i'm like the what and i hadn't even read it so actually what i've admitted

00:18:17.960 to mention and this is i don't get too in the weeds of comedy but there's this comedy website

00:18:21.640 called short blog blog yeah there's a comedy blog called chortle i can tell you guys love it already

00:18:27.660 and um it's everything was fine until they picked it up so actually everyone ignored that express

00:18:32.820 piece they completely ignored it it was only when the when short said hey guys look at this idiot

00:18:37.000 that we can attack now which was probably specifically done for that purpose so then

00:18:41.400 the whole comedy industry attacked me and then i got all the comedians saying are you okay and some

00:18:45.380 quite big comedians attacked me including ones that i'd always been nice to and about my whole

00:18:51.380 life and i got on with them one of them had even given me a nice quote about my comedy and then

00:18:56.680 he threw me under the bus to nearly 400 000 people which i thought was interesting and this

00:19:04.400 is somebody who goes on about mental health awareness all the time and even someone who

00:19:07.940 admitted they were suicidal because their tv show got cancelled and they got attacked a few years

00:19:14.060 ago and i'm like but now you're doing it to me i'm like that blows my mind that someone can do that

00:19:19.540 the lack of empathy you know i mean from the hashtag be kind brigade yeah so nick

00:19:24.900 what i don't really i mean i think for a lot of people watching i don't think they really would

00:19:31.000 understand what what what what you've done wrong there you pointed out that somebody who who books

00:19:37.380 comedy had said i know that nick is exists and aware of him i'm aware of him and presumably that

00:19:45.000 he's good at comedy but i won't book him because of his demographic characteristics right is that

00:19:50.760 what they basically said that's what they said and you made people aware that that had happened

00:19:56.780 so what have you what what boundary have you crossed there like where's the right wing bigotry

00:20:03.960 and what you've done there is what i'm trying to get at right right and that's the interesting

00:20:07.040 thing no one has been able to ascertain what i did wrong that's what i'm and everyone's who

00:20:11.020 everyone normal who's looked at it like normal mean not in comedy has looked at it and gone

00:20:15.180 what did you actually do yeah and i've gone great question great question i talked about

00:20:19.000 on talk radio and Mark Dolan he's like what have you done the only offensive part comes from the

00:20:22.780 promoter who's written gay disabled woman in a wheelchair it's like you haven't said that I'm

00:20:26.620 like I know so it's like what have I actually done mine was the old-fashioned liberal notion

00:20:31.140 that we should be we should be judged as individuals call me naive right but I was

00:20:36.220 saying that if you had two gay comics on a bill for example let's say Andrew Doyle Scott Capura

00:20:41.580 just two examples we might know I would never say oh it's two gay people they can't be on the bill

00:20:46.720 because I would just see them as completely different acts, right?

00:20:49.480 Well, they've done completely different styles from the start.

00:20:51.720 So it never occurred to me.

00:20:52.740 I just think, well, let's put them both on.

00:20:54.380 I just say put everyone on.

00:20:55.840 I don't, who cares about that?

00:20:57.300 The individual style is what matters in comedy

00:20:58.920 because it's about the individual persona, right?

00:21:01.960 That's what I thought.

00:21:02.760 So that's all I was ever saying.

00:21:04.800 That is the liberal position,

00:21:06.160 but that now gets you called a bigger online by a lot of people.

00:21:11.900 Especially comedians.

00:21:13.060 Yeah, it was shocking.

00:21:14.760 i muted like i say as much of it as i could but one sentence i did get i did see one thing that

00:21:19.320 said yes nick dixon is a bigger but and i was like i'm sorry what and it's like i just couldn't

00:21:25.940 believe it because i'm just going that's someone defending yeah yeah yeah i know there was a but

00:21:31.900 yeah yeah and it was like but the sentence almost didn't make sense to me after a few days of not

00:21:37.380 sleeping and looking at all this stuff you're going like it almost the words didn't even make

00:21:41.120 sense because you see your name taken so out of context and everyone knows i'm just a nice guy

00:21:45.540 everyone knows that and i'm seeing this going nick dixon is a big i'm just going who is this guy

00:21:50.240 nick dixon so i it was so divorced from reality and it got so out of hand but i was like what

00:21:55.180 was bigoted in what i said i just couldn't figure it out i was even i was saying let's just base it

00:22:01.020 on merit and let everyone like i made it maybe as a crass analogy i was like look at the england

00:22:05.240 football team it's merit and it ends up very diverse naturally because it's merit that was

00:22:09.840 my argument but i still don't see what's so bad about that so let's talk what we're actually

00:22:14.180 talking about nick because there's something underneath this conversation that we all know

00:22:17.500 is there okay and we don't want to address which is what you really pointed out is comedy is not

00:22:22.960 a meritocracy much like the media much like anything else and people's identity has become

00:22:29.240 an important part of whether you're considered fit for a particular job was that is that a fair

00:22:35.260 description yeah yeah yeah and you pointed this out and i think there are two things going on and

00:22:42.120 tell me what you think about this number one is there are a lot of people who've bought into the

00:22:47.960 idea that because people like you who look like you not like you but who look like you used to

00:22:54.240 be on the tv quite a lot that now means that you should not be given opportunities and other people

00:23:00.640 who don't look like you who didn't have opportunities in the past now should be given

00:23:04.660 opportunities. So there's a group of people who just think we need to flip the discrimination

00:23:08.580 that used to happen, right? Number one. Number two, there's also a lot of comedians who do look

00:23:15.200 like you, but most comedians look like you, let's be honest, because blokes tend to be more attracted

00:23:20.060 to comedy and blah, blah, blah as a career, who know this is happening, who feel bad about what's

00:23:26.460 happening, but they have spent their whole career pretending it doesn't exist. And so when you say

00:23:32.020 there is discrimination which is what you're really saying people are being picked not only

00:23:36.780 on on their on their skill set they then feel like well i've been suppressing this shit my

00:23:42.780 whole life and this guy has now said it and now he makes all of us look bad because we've all been

00:23:47.600 suppressing it this whole time and they get angry at that too that's my interpretation so you've got

00:23:53.200 these two groups which both are angry with you the first group is angry with you for pointing out

00:23:57.540 that discrimination is probably not a good thing.

00:24:00.060 Old-fashioned, I know.

00:24:01.520 And the other one is angry

00:24:02.640 because they've been pretending this whole time

00:24:04.260 that what's happening is right.

00:24:05.500 And you've kind of gone, it isn't.

00:24:08.500 Right.

00:24:08.960 So, yeah, there's a few layers in that.

00:24:11.240 You're right.

00:24:12.220 Well, one is the fact that you can make the argument

00:24:15.020 that you've pointed out there of it's been one way,

00:24:18.380 now we need to redress the balance.

00:24:19.960 And that's fine.

00:24:20.520 You can make the argument.

00:24:21.620 I was making the different argument.

00:24:23.140 But you can actually make the argument

00:24:24.180 without calling me a bigot and a shit comic, I think.

00:24:26.760 because uh you know that's neither here nor there whether i'm any good or not or what my views are

00:24:31.760 you can make that argument that's fine just make it calmly so so i don't necessarily i think that's

00:24:36.440 fine if that's what you believe the second point is is more sort of complex which is

00:24:41.600 the people who have known it was like that for years so the people that attacked me

00:24:46.180 one comic sort of mocked me and referenced the fact that there are lots of straight white men

00:24:51.680 on tv and he listed a series of people who have been on since the 90s i'm like yeah mate i know

00:24:56.380 you're on the tv you're a millionaire it's well done his defense was well we're doing well it's

00:25:00.580 like yeah we what happened is there was all these straight white men on tv there was probably too

00:25:05.440 many of it was it was just them they if anyone were the ones keeping other people out now they

00:25:10.220 said right now we've got to have diversity so a generation of people of my generation it's like

00:25:16.060 no we can't have you now but they're still keeping all the old white guys they haven't gone anywhere

00:25:20.640 you know it's kind of like if the england football team still had gary linica in it

00:25:23.560 do you know what I mean they're they're still all there and they're like no we're keeping our spots

00:25:27.700 but but now we're changing the rules so yeah so those guys are very sensitive because they know

00:25:32.060 that they they're trying to keep hold of their spot which I think is what you're implying so

00:25:35.680 they're the last people that want to change anything and then and then I when it comes down

00:25:40.880 to me pointing it out I wasn't even really pointing pointing out I was merely reporting

00:25:45.400 on something that had happened to me which is a key thing as well I was just sharing something

00:25:49.360 that had been sent to me that was it really i wasn't even making this massive point then in

00:25:53.780 the well i mean he did bring up martin luther king man so let's be honest but that was a joke

00:25:58.320 that was a joke remember jokes it was a it was at least it was at least a wry comment you know i

00:26:03.960 wasn't seriously comparing it i think you were making a point which is a legitimate point to

00:26:08.760 make but i was making it in a light-hearted way yeah of course and then in the paper it sounded

00:26:12.420 a bit more serious and the funny thing is like nick nickson just bitter he can't get work it's

00:26:16.760 like guys i left one of the best live agents in the country i barely want to do gigs out of london

00:26:20.620 i've been desperate to not have work for ages i've been refusing work because it's annoying to go to

00:26:24.980 leeds but but everyone's like he's just bitter he can't get work that's the accusation against

00:26:28.700 whenever you make a point like that it's just immediately they attack you and say he's rubbish

00:26:33.120 at comedy and he's bitter and he's a bigot it's like and the idea by the way that i'm

00:26:37.100 calling me shit at comedy is a great insult when i've done nearly 2 000 gigs i've done gigs in

00:26:42.120 preston frog and bucky you don't come out of that thinking you're amazing do you know i mean no

00:26:46.680 comic is just there thinking well i'm just amazing like because you do so many hard gigs

00:26:50.300 you have a very realistic idea like some days i think i'm amazing if i have a great gig and the

00:26:54.400 next day i think i'm terrible but you are a very good comic there's no denying that and we'll make

00:26:58.120 sure we put a little clip of you at the top of the video so people can see you are a very good

00:27:01.720 comic well thanks man i mean that that's up to people to judge but that is completely irrelevant

00:27:05.560 to the argument i think he's just he's just shit it's like that's not really the point guys

00:27:10.280 anyway and everyone knows it happens the thing i pointed out yeah everyone knows it whether you

00:27:14.660 like it or not agree with it everyone knows it happens that's why i think people are so sensitive

00:27:18.300 about it like how can he admit this happens but everyone i know has had some incident where they've

00:27:23.400 been refused something because of these other characteristics other than their ability so why

00:27:27.580 is it taboo then why is it taboo to then go this thing that we all know happens happens but why is

00:27:33.520 it that we you know that the moment someone makes a tweet about it makes a comment about it references

00:27:39.440 is it they get shouted down they get you know piled on they all the rest of it why does that

00:27:44.880 happen yeah it's a great question it's just because it's just like you said it's just a

00:27:48.740 taboo topic especially to say that you're white it just race is just such a taboo topic now isn't

00:27:54.700 it you can't even say well it also by the way and and and the requisite self-awareness was lacking

00:28:00.920 in the paper in the article i did but no one cares about the plight of the straight white

00:28:06.000 male comedian let's be honest straight away that's an absurd it sounds ridiculous doesn't it

00:28:10.620 because it's not it's not that high on the list of the world's problems like guys I'm struggling

00:28:14.820 here as a straight white male comedian when's my time you know it does sound ridiculous and yet

00:28:20.060 it is happening to loads of people but it's just a very unsympathetic plight to talk about and the

00:28:26.280 other thing that happens with me is people think oh well he's he's from public school or grammar

00:28:30.660 school it's like no no I went to a shit comprehensive state school in the north but

00:28:36.060 apparently people don't think that about me because I can talk properly or something you know

00:28:39.880 they don't expect northerners to be able to read and stuff so there's this extra level this is what

00:28:44.540 I realized there's this extra level everyone assumes I'm this thing I'm not and Andrew Doyle

00:28:49.200 has it all the time he gets called a right-wing public school straight white man who cut he's

00:28:54.400 like he's a gay left-wing guy from a comprehensive school and so you get there's this image of me

00:28:59.300 out there i'm like he's worked incredibly hard right to get academic qualifications to become

00:29:04.460 a great comedian he's one of the hardest working people you ever meet true andrew true he is and

00:29:09.160 exactly and i'm not but but i've made some effort but yeah but this you get this idea and that's

00:29:15.260 particularly unsympathetic if people think you're a sort of right-wing public school boy which i'm

00:29:21.080 None of those things.

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00:30:19.260 do you think that part of it is this class that the reason you know that you got piled on the

00:30:27.460 reason that a lot of people get piled on is if it's you know people who come from and they're

00:30:33.100 not oxbridge educated etc etc and if they question the narrative it's somehow more acceptable to pile

00:30:40.320 on yeah yeah i do think there's an element of that i think if you're just if you're just not

00:30:44.460 really known like i'm basically unknown and so for a famous comedian to attack me it's so easy

00:30:50.880 isn't it it's just so easy and it doesn't lose anything they gain a few virtue points from the

00:30:56.080 industry or a few likes on twitter and they can destroy my week but and they can make my life a

00:31:01.380 lot harder but there's no there's no loss for them because you're just beating up on an unknown

00:31:05.980 person it's bullying basically used to be called bullying that's all it is but it's very easy isn't

00:31:10.400 it so why have we come to a place where bullying has become virtuous where dogpiling someone

00:31:15.720 destroying their reputation is now seen as a morally correct thing to do when when i was a

00:31:20.980 primary school teacher if kids did that you'd be like well that's bullying yeah yeah i know

00:31:25.640 yeah i know that is that is the shocking thing people can bully online while putting hashtag

00:31:33.100 be kind and they're the good people that is that really bothered me at the time i was like these

00:31:37.340 are the good people allegedly and they're just not but it is here's a really this is me being

00:31:42.200 really fair it is quite easy to join a pylon on twitter and even accidentally because i after

00:31:48.460 that happened to me i was like right i'm gonna get really strict about what i tweet to make sure i'm

00:31:53.100 not anything like these people but i basically stopped tweeting because i realized it's the way

00:31:57.660 the medium is even if you quote tweet someone even if you take a photo some people maybe deserve it

00:32:02.740 matt hancock or someone but even him i was like you know government officials maybe deserve it

00:32:07.220 but it's like it's so easy for you to just quote tweet someone go look at this idiot

00:32:11.360 but then if a thousand people have done that that's gonna be a very hard day for them but

00:32:15.780 you don't think about it it's just two seconds this sounds like some sort of uh advert now

00:32:20.860 doesn't it for like mental health awareness or something we should be playing like soft piano

00:32:24.660 music under this i'm like guys think about what you're tweeting yeah make it black and white as

00:32:28.480 well yeah yeah there'll be a picture of you just in the kitchen making it we've all tweeted something

00:32:33.780 don't really think about it yeah but you know what i mean it's very easy to join so i become

00:32:38.300 ultra aware of not being like that myself and i'm not like that but i don't even be one percent like

00:32:42.300 that because these people are scum come on these be kind people it just blows my mind like i said

00:32:49.300 this comedian i won't necessarily name you can all do your research but to go on about mental

00:32:54.340 health awareness i almost messaged him i was like what have i done to you why did you do this because

00:32:59.280 I was just so baffled because I've been nice to my whole career.

00:33:01.580 I was like, why would you set nearly 400,000 people on me?

00:33:06.220 What do you think that's going to do to me?

00:33:07.520 You know, I almost messaged that.

00:33:09.720 And then I just thought, no, we'll have a charity boxing match one day.

00:33:15.180 It's funny you mentioned boxing because the point I was just about to make

00:33:17.900 is I was talking to somebody who's quite help in the publishing industry

00:33:20.800 the other day, and I was asking them how they manage this sort of thing

00:33:24.480 because in publishing it's very common for people to get piled on

00:33:27.380 and people get told, well, we're not publishing this book

00:33:29.660 because it's got problematic opinions or whatever.

00:33:32.000 And he made the point, which I thought was very astute,

00:33:34.460 that people choose to get upset about different things.

00:33:37.960 So he was saying, when we publish a book

00:33:39.880 by a gender-critical feminist, right,

00:33:42.340 people have a massive freak out

00:33:44.100 and they demand that that book is cancelled and whatever.

00:33:47.560 When we publish a book by Mike Tyson,

00:33:50.640 a convicted rapist, no one says a word.

00:33:53.680 And I think your situation actually speaks very well

00:33:57.040 to that point, which is people don't actually care that you've done something wrong in real

00:34:02.760 life. What they care about is you've exposed the system that they support. You've exposed the

00:34:09.720 ideological system that they are on board with. And you're pointing out the flaw in it, wryly as

00:34:16.740 you did, comedically as you did, highlights that the system is flawed. And that is dangerous,

00:34:23.260 It's much more dangerous than being a convicted rapist in their mind.

00:34:26.840 Do you see what I'm saying?

00:34:27.460 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:27.980 Yeah, absolutely.

00:34:28.580 You're threatening their ideology.

00:34:29.840 Yeah.

00:34:30.180 That's what it's all about.

00:34:31.680 It's amazing, isn't it?

00:34:32.900 That's such a big thing.

00:34:34.760 Again, like the attacks on GB News.

00:34:36.540 It's all an ideology.

00:34:38.000 It's all...

00:34:38.680 And that's why it's so serious and so hysterical.

00:34:42.540 Imagine they could just make their argument calmly, though.

00:34:44.620 That would be interesting, wouldn't it?

00:34:45.880 Just make the argument.

00:34:47.460 I mean, but you're saying it because I'm pushing the buttons of the...

00:34:51.320 But what's underneath that?

00:34:52.640 Why are they so vehement about the ideology?

00:34:54.640 Well, my opinion is that the ideology is based on a lot of emotion, a lot of we wish the

00:35:00.520 world was perfect or we need to do this and we need to do that.

00:35:03.220 And they've talked themselves into doing a lot of things which are blatantly wrong and

00:35:07.080 unfair, but they have to pretend that that's equity or whatever the word is nowadays.

00:35:13.200 And so they can't calmly defend that because there is no rational defense for it.

00:35:17.760 The only defense for it is to scream and shout

00:35:20.480 until anyone who opposes it

00:35:22.260 either self-censors or gets canceled.

00:35:24.740 Right.

00:35:25.120 And yeah, that's the weird thing about ideology, isn't it?

00:35:27.080 You end up supporting the ideology for its own sake.

00:35:29.960 And then all the tenets that were supposed to go into it

00:35:32.740 are thrown out the window.

00:35:34.140 So the whole idea must be compassion.

00:35:36.460 Let's say it's a left-wing ideology.

00:35:37.980 It must be based in things like compassion and empathy,

00:35:40.760 especially for the underdog or the underclass or something.

00:35:44.040 And then somehow that leads to attacking me online

00:35:46.940 how is that in line with that what have i done you know i mean just some unknown comedian

00:35:51.700 from a state school and it doesn't really make any sense but yeah it's all done in the name of

00:35:56.180 like say something like equity yeah well you are the enemy of the ideology and the ideology will

00:36:01.000 deliver compassion therefore if you oppose it you must be destroyed and you deserve no compassion

00:36:05.300 because you're threatening the world view the ideology amazing just with a little tweet yeah

00:36:10.860 the comedy world it's mad isn't it comedy world dangerous man nick yeah it's so strange isn't it

00:36:16.340 i know like you said like the audience probably don't care too much about the details of the

00:36:19.300 comedy industry but it has got very weird hasn't it yeah it used to just be comedy you were funny

00:36:25.260 or not and now it's this whole well i suppose in england since the 80s it was i suppose it was

00:36:30.800 left wing wasn't it was against thatcher and stuff but even then it didn't seem anything like

00:36:34.660 like it is now no it didn't it doesn't seem that we have transgressive comedians anymore

00:36:40.320 You know, comedians on TV, you'd think to yourself,

00:36:43.180 whoa, I can't believe they said that.

00:36:44.720 If you take the American example, you know, someone like Chris Rock or Bill Burr,

00:36:50.060 you know, you can name lots of American comedians.

00:36:53.040 You can't name that many British ones that regularly get on TV

00:36:56.660 that say transgressive things that come out against this ideology.

00:37:01.460 Yeah, although even Chris Rock has gone on that kind of journey

00:37:03.620 from really interesting, edgy comic in the 90s to this slightly woke last special

00:37:09.140 and is now pushing the vaccine.

00:37:11.340 Whatever you think about the vaccine,

00:37:12.760 he's now fully on board with the establishment, isn't he?

00:37:14.820 So you could argue.

00:37:16.260 So if you go back to his 90s stuff, it's very interesting.

00:37:18.480 He'll say things like, I've got things I'm conservative about.

00:37:21.140 I've got things I'm like Democrat about.

00:37:22.820 He wouldn't even say that now.

00:37:24.480 He wouldn't even dare say that, which is interesting.

00:37:26.640 But yeah, we definitely don't have it.

00:37:28.240 And you guys have even stopped doing it because of this.

00:37:30.400 Is that right?

00:37:30.940 No, Francis is going to carry on.

00:37:32.600 This just takes up too much of my time.

00:37:34.500 I'm working on a book now and whatever.

00:37:36.020 But I might come back and do my own show.

00:37:37.480 I'd never do the circuit again.

00:37:38.660 and was it because of busyness or was it because of you just couldn't fit into that world

00:37:42.340 i hated being on the circuit from the moment i set foot on it right uh mainly because of the people

00:37:48.040 right that you're surrounded by uh i never had anything in common with them but at the moment

00:37:52.580 it's just busyness you know and also i did my edinburgh show in 2019 i it was it went very

00:37:58.460 well i was pleased with how it went i kind of felt like i'd drawn that line i'd got to that stage and

00:38:04.020 i didn't have anything left to prove really to myself more than anything um and now with

00:38:09.520 trigonometry is a full-time job the book i have to work on it's taken a lot of my time so i've

00:38:15.240 just been focused on this i might come back to it you know okay and francis you're obviously

00:38:19.060 working on your your tour i'm working on my tour but also as well i got i got sick of not being

00:38:24.880 able to talk of what i wanted to talk about to discuss a subject so i wanted to discuss

00:38:30.780 I really just had enough of it.

00:38:33.060 It got to the point where I just felt

00:38:34.920 that I was self-censoring.

00:38:36.540 You've got a great 10 minutes on the Muslims.

00:38:38.120 Yeah, exactly.

00:38:38.840 Do you know what I mean?

00:38:39.280 It's just all banter, mate.

00:38:40.740 Of course, there's some comics doing that.

00:38:42.600 Nicholas DeSanto's doing that.

00:38:44.140 Yeah, and Nicholas DeSanto ended up

00:38:46.300 nearly getting fired from his job

00:38:47.760 with the BBC as a result.

00:38:49.260 As a result of other comedians

00:38:50.560 sending emails to his employer.

00:38:51.200 Maybe we should cut his name out of this thing.

00:38:53.720 But someone told me you said something about it.

00:38:56.540 A friend of ours the other day said

00:38:57.800 you'd put some tweet or something

00:38:59.780 and you just said you're welcome to it guys I'm not I'm done with the comedy world or something

00:39:03.720 did you do that yeah yeah yeah pretty much pretty much because I've just there is only so long that

00:39:09.700 you can play a game where the rules are stupid where you start to make yourself become stupid

00:39:15.100 by playing the game right they only can go on for so long before you have to make a value judgment

00:39:20.320 you think am I going to carry on with this and waste time and waste and time is precious we there

00:39:26.520 is a limited amount that we all have. Am I going to carry on doing this? Am I going to carry on

00:39:31.400 seeking, carrying the favour of people that I have no respect for, who in ordinary life, I would not

00:39:37.720 give the time of day to. But somehow, because I'm in this industry, I have to play the game. I have

00:39:43.900 to be obsequious. I have to listen to their demented opinions as if they hold any value.

00:39:49.160 I just don't have time for it anymore. Right. And was it that you just saw,

00:39:52.500 so you didn't respect the people and you saw did you see no hope in that direction for you or you

00:39:57.380 know like they would never accept you anyway number one they would never accept me number two they

00:40:01.820 would never accept my politics even though actually old school i'm probably just sort of slightly left

00:40:06.880 of center some right on some things in terms of culture like you know i believe that you know

00:40:11.600 there's two sexes you know there's men and there's women and that's it bigger yeah exactly yeah yeah

00:40:17.300 and that doesn't mean that we can't have respect for trans people and we can't support them we

00:40:20.860 can't be empathetic all of those things but you can't deny biology and you know and if you said

00:40:26.620 that on the comedy circuit you'd be finished i wouldn't open with it as as comedians i want to

00:40:34.820 say no but this is the thing nick it's like what francis is talking about this is the thing that

00:40:39.180 took us a few years to get our heads around doing the show we are genuinely not right wing but

00:40:45.680 somehow the idea that there's two sexes or that maybe open borders isn't a sustainable policy

00:40:51.920 or the whatever other culture war issue or not culture where she come up with like the sensible

00:40:58.360 rational mainstream opinion is now like right wing right and and it's just not no no it's just

00:41:05.140 not i'm probably closer to a social democrat or something i realized exactly yes but but in the

00:41:10.160 culture sphere which is incredibly progressive to to use their term yeah the moment you you drift

00:41:18.220 anywhere from that you are immediately considered you know evil bigger like like you you find

00:41:23.680 yourself in this position and so the truth is life is short as francis says and all is going to

00:41:29.200 happen you're going to live a few more years and then you're going to die that's it well what

00:41:33.880 happened i had a similar thing to francis where what bothered me is comedians telling me for years

00:41:39.140 oh be careful about that mate don't say that yeah not even on stage just off stage some some of my

00:41:43.500 opinions i like to put or did like to put on twitter in the past and don't not so much now

00:41:48.360 but i just speak my mind but they'd all say oh mate don't say that and at a certain point i

00:41:52.660 thought do you really want to live like that isn't that cowardice do you mean as a man do you really

00:41:56.640 want to go around living or as a person but especially do you really want to just for whoever

00:42:00.600 has watched this but do you really want to go around living in a state of fear about what you

00:42:04.860 say all the time exactly because like you say some person who you don't respect anyway might see it

00:42:10.140 and ban you from some imaginary thing you might have got in six years yeah i'm like i can't live

00:42:14.680 like that yeah that's how most comedians live comedians live right and they always tell me

00:42:18.100 well i wouldn't say that and the things i'm saying are not even bad but they're you know

00:42:21.560 but they're just an opinion and it's like oh about everything i'm like i can't live like that

00:42:25.560 and the world and the comedy world forces you into that francis i remember one when we in the

00:42:31.560 early days of trigonometry he messaged me saying i don't think you should say this yeah and that's

00:42:37.200 not because he's a bad guy it's because we're all in that world yeah yeah you're you feel like you're

00:42:41.580 constantly being watched by other people who may give you an opportunity an opportunity being a gig

00:42:47.840 in fucking contington on c for 100 quid right on that saturday night or whatever it is yeah 150

00:42:53.400 or that one day you'll get on the apollo exactly yeah and get 15 but you won't but the thing is

00:42:58.180 you want right you know and i got i got the whole thing handed to me on a platter one day because

00:43:04.540 i i was uh walking to a gig and some guy was i had an altercation with some guy on the street

00:43:12.380 who called me a packet right which which is i've apologized yeah he does that joke every time

00:43:18.300 well done and i got home and i got an email from a comedy promoter saying hey constantine i'm sorry

00:43:25.780 we're going to have to cancel your spot this Saturday

00:43:27.820 because we've got too many straight white men on the bill.

00:43:31.100 Right.

00:43:31.600 And I was like, okay, you know, now I see.

00:43:35.240 Do you know what I mean?

00:43:37.140 It's just a...

00:43:39.060 But you didn't tweet that.

00:43:40.200 No.

00:43:40.660 That was smart.

00:43:42.240 So you were getting it from both sides.

00:43:43.800 You were getting attacked for...

00:43:44.940 It's a joke, man.

00:43:46.540 The whole thing, ironically.

00:43:47.920 The comedy industry is a joke.

00:43:49.640 The structure of it is a joke.

00:43:51.960 The whole thing of it, it's a rigged game

00:43:54.260 and you know it's like George Carlin used to say and you ain't in it it's a small club and you ain't

00:43:59.120 in it and that's fine because now luckily we have our own tools that we can create our own shit

00:44:04.040 but you ain't in the club yeah I mean now I'm thinking I've said too much I was there was a

00:44:09.600 slight chance I could have been in the club but um it wasn't no no because what I started doing

00:44:14.040 yeah I'm the same I started just speaking my mind and doing all the and there's other other

00:44:18.840 channels for that what happened to me is during the lockdown without that like you said that sort

00:44:23.360 voice of like oh what would the comedy world think because that had gone because i was not doing

00:44:27.500 comedy and i was just at home i then started writing articles for spiked and i suddenly wrote

00:44:31.240 seven articles like oh this is brilliant and they're quite good and i was like oh i can do this

00:44:34.580 which i never would have done before and they would be called you know right wing by the comedy

00:44:39.100 even though they're marxists so that's another weird one to figure out some of them are marxists

00:44:43.500 so i started writing these articles and i did talk radio then i did gb news and these are the things

00:44:47.660 that if you get cancelled they're going to still have me on because they probably don't care because

00:44:52.560 i'm probably being cancelled for something stupid anyway so i just stick with the things that like

00:44:56.720 me and where i can go but yeah but it's unfortunate because it'd be nice to be on tv and say hey i'm

00:45:03.680 doing gb news that's nice isn't it and people to go yeah well done without having to feel weird

00:45:06.860 about it and it'd be nice if you could just do both imagine that if you could just do bbc and

00:45:11.680 gb news and no one thought it was a big deal because it's all let's be honest it's all showbiz

00:45:15.420 really isn't it yeah isn't it all really showbiz isn't it really there's not that much differences

00:45:19.180 Is there between GB News and BBC, really, is there?

00:45:21.960 It's a person reading out some opinions or some news.

00:45:24.760 Is it really that different?

00:45:26.240 I think there is a difference.

00:45:27.480 I think there is a difference.

00:45:28.760 There is a difference, but I don't know if it's as big as we think.

00:45:31.680 I mean, someone once said to me, Jesus was in showbiz.

00:45:35.120 Slightly blasphemous, but I saw his point earlier.

00:45:38.680 Isn't everyone, aren't we all a little bit in showbiz here,

00:45:41.380 just doing the same?

00:45:42.360 Isn't it just a person saying an opinion on the TV?

00:45:45.400 Yeah, look, there is a good point to be made about that.

00:45:48.200 But the thing that I find frustrating is not really the comedy industry,

00:45:52.100 though I hope they all burn and die, right?

00:45:54.380 And hopefully I get successful enough and rich enough

00:45:58.180 that one day I can make that dream come to fruition, right?

00:46:01.840 But it's what happens to the art form.

00:46:05.080 That's what really annoys me, is what happens to the art form.

00:46:08.780 Because when we both started, and I imagine you as well,

00:46:11.660 I fell in love with the idea of the comedians,

00:46:13.840 this sort of transgressive force, saying the unsayable,

00:46:16.880 tackling subjects that we all knew to be true

00:46:20.500 but didn't dare speak.

00:46:22.220 That was the role of the comedian, the Hicks,

00:46:24.640 the Pryor, the Carlin, the Bill Burr.

00:46:27.920 And I'm thinking, where are those guys

00:46:29.240 going to come from now?

00:46:31.460 Where are they going to come from?

00:46:32.640 That's what the comedian was.

00:46:33.820 A sort of loner figure, telling the truth,

00:46:36.500 getting laughs.

00:46:37.240 That's what it was all about.

00:46:38.240 That's what we watched growing up.

00:46:39.700 Now it's this other thing.

00:46:40.700 It has to be all, everything has to be fair

00:46:43.040 and representative.

00:46:44.040 And I got in trouble for saying,

00:46:45.320 why does comedy have to even be representative?

00:46:47.060 I don't even get it.

00:46:47.920 It's just, why can't it just be comedy?

00:46:49.900 I don't understand.

00:46:51.080 Once it became this important social media,

00:46:53.800 I mean, in this country, it happened with Michael McIntyre.

00:46:56.320 They found out, the BBC found out,

00:46:58.160 we could make this cheap programming, relatively cheap.

00:47:00.240 Loads of people will watch it and they love it.

00:47:02.000 And then they thought, hmm,

00:47:02.900 how can we turn this into social engineering?

00:47:04.720 You know what I mean?

00:47:05.140 It wasn't enough just to say, oh, it's comedy.

00:47:07.200 It became too important.

00:47:08.440 So it became a tool, a political tool,

00:47:10.620 as opposed to just being the art form that it is,

00:47:13.240 that it used to be.

00:47:14.380 Yeah.

00:47:14.540 Yeah, and do you think we're ever going to get back to that time?

00:47:18.820 Do you think we're ever going to get back to that time

00:47:21.640 where we see these transgressive figures

00:47:23.760 and they become mainstream again?

00:47:28.620 Or do you think it's different now?

00:47:30.680 The media landscape is different,

00:47:32.600 the internet has made things different,

00:47:34.380 and that's just the way it's going to be.

00:47:37.020 Yeah, I do struggle to see how we get back to that

00:47:39.920 because we're in this, like you say, internet world.

00:47:42.200 We're in this fractured culture.

00:47:44.080 everyone has their little niche which is good in a way but you don't have that centralized narrative

00:47:47.880 so it is hard to see how you get these big comedians who are just trying it happens a little

00:47:54.060 bit like you say in the US you do still have them a bit don't you occasionally with someone like

00:47:58.640 Bilbo although he's a bit tamer than he was but you do have it but I can't I wonder about that

00:48:03.080 that's why I was thinking about this split between Live at the Apollo and Comedy Unleashed and I was

00:48:06.580 thinking can these two ever come back together and just be comedy again because a lot of the comedy

00:48:10.780 comedy is just normal comedy yeah and that's all actually all we're trying to bring back

00:48:14.580 because it just this reminds me of um a tweet a while ago by i think it was richard tice and he

00:48:20.220 was saying it was on the radio him and laurence fox saying we're gonna have a pub and it's gonna

00:48:25.380 have british food no masks blah blah free speech all these things i was like yeah fair enough and

00:48:30.120 right-wing comedy and i was like hang on that's not that's not the answer no no we don't nobody

00:48:34.540 needs right-wing comedy right just you just need good comedy just comedy that's it that's it and

00:48:39.700 whoever brings that will will get respect it's like oh these guys brought us back normal comedy

00:48:44.200 but so if that's the right win then great they'll get a win there but but yeah we don't need right

00:48:48.840 the antidote to all this whatever so-called woke comedy whatever you want to call it is just comedy

00:48:53.860 and that's all people want when i some of my youtube videos that do okay from comedy at least

00:48:58.260 people like all the positive comments are all about oh proper comedy again that's all it is

00:49:02.660 that's all people want just normal comedy again yeah yeah it's this idea that you know that we're

00:49:07.980 all in separate factions so now we do comedy to cater to left-wing woke people now we need comedy

00:49:13.640 to cater to right-wing people right i don't care and i don't think the majority of audience members

00:49:18.820 i don't care about comedians political views right i disagree with stuart lee politically i think his

00:49:23.940 political views are demented i think he's a very good comedian yeah brilliant comedian

00:49:28.040 i will sit and watch stuart lee and disagree with him and enjoy his comedy right right exactly and

00:49:34.180 that that should be a normal a normal view i was thinking about i did a gig in cambridge a while

00:49:38.840 ago and uh afterwards a guy comes up to me and goes oh you were really good mate no you're really

00:49:42.840 good it was really nice to see you weren't just sort of doing like a rant like the others were

00:49:46.140 like it was a right you sort of do and i just went jokes and he was like i was doing jokes

00:49:50.700 i was just doing comedy but everyone else was doing a just a political rant about why the

00:49:55.600 audience should feel bad and it's like all i'm doing is not that i'm just sort of pretending

00:50:00.660 that doesn't exist you know what I mean and even in you mentioned Edinburgh Fessel even there you

00:50:05.200 can get reviewed almost on what you're not yeah like the year that the Me Too thing was a big

00:50:09.440 thing if you didn't address that you'd almost be attacked for that but all you were really doing

00:50:13.560 what I've just been doing with my comedy is just pretending none of that exists and occasionally

00:50:17.340 I'll reference it if I'm at Comedy Unleashed I'll do a sort of political or culture war type

00:50:21.120 reference but mainly I'll just do my comedy as if that's not a thing but it's more for me it's more

00:50:26.800 my apparent off-stage views that get me in trouble.

00:50:29.560 But anyway, here we are.

00:50:31.220 Do you think the audiences are just,

00:50:33.560 they're getting to the point where,

00:50:35.640 and this is what I worry about.

00:50:37.360 I was talking, you know, with a friend of mine

00:50:40.300 and we sat down, we were watching this comedian

00:50:43.420 on the latest stand-up show

00:50:45.860 and I was foaming at the mouth in rage.

00:50:48.300 And I was saying, as a punter,

00:50:50.360 who's just looking at that...

00:50:51.700 He's taken us all very well, by the way.

00:50:53.040 Yeah, a lot of foaming, a lot of burning.

00:50:55.060 you alright mate

00:50:58.680 so I need to send you

00:51:00.180 one of these messages

00:51:00.720 are you ok

00:51:01.240 do you want to swap

00:51:02.280 chairs with me

00:51:02.840 we can interview you

00:51:03.700 about your anger mate

00:51:04.660 that's my better side

00:51:06.340 left side's my better one

00:51:07.540 do you want to swap

00:51:08.000 but he was making

00:51:10.300 the point that

00:51:10.960 when he was watching

00:51:11.800 this comedian

00:51:12.320 who wasn't particularly

00:51:13.300 good

00:51:13.720 that he would just

00:51:15.080 look at it

00:51:15.580 at that

00:51:17.420 and go

00:51:18.000 oh that's what

00:51:18.700 stand up is now

00:51:19.500 I'm not going to

00:51:20.280 go and watch it

00:51:21.020 because it's not good

00:51:22.780 that's what I worry

00:51:24.120 about as well

00:51:25.060 Yeah, it can only damage the whole medium for everyone.

00:51:27.840 And everyone knows this.

00:51:28.800 Actually, even the agents know this.

00:51:30.100 Even the big agents that run things like Live at the Apollo

00:51:33.300 have said the BBC are destroying this.

00:51:35.940 Because the agent doesn't want it destroyed

00:51:37.120 because they want to make money.

00:51:38.320 But the BBC has their agenda.

00:51:40.220 And, you know, it's this public thing

00:51:42.080 and they've got this social engineering agenda.

00:51:43.860 So, yeah, the agents don't want it.

00:51:45.620 The audiences don't want it.

00:51:46.700 I don't think the comedians really want it, most of them.

00:51:49.080 And yet it happens anyway.

00:51:51.080 Well, there we are, Nick.

00:51:52.100 Unfortunately, we've got to wrap up, mate.

00:51:53.640 We've got one more question for you that we always ask,

00:51:56.000 but I wanted to ask, what's next for you?

00:51:58.680 What are your plans?

00:51:59.480 What are you going to do?

00:52:00.740 My plan is really a lot more GB news.

00:52:03.700 May as well double down on that while we're there.

00:52:07.540 You've got a Colum and Bride bar.

00:52:09.100 Yeah, yeah.

00:52:09.760 And I'm still doing stand-up.

00:52:11.920 I'm still out there doing the gigs.

00:52:13.540 So that's it, really.

00:52:14.260 It's just to do more of that, do more writing,

00:52:17.340 you know, articles and stuff, and keep doing stand-up.

00:52:20.560 because I still have clubs that book me and love me

00:52:24.620 so that's great

00:52:26.320 I'll keep doing those

00:52:27.140 this weird little niche

00:52:29.600 I don't know where it leads

00:52:30.560 because it's this new niche

00:52:32.020 which is sort of the comedy unleashed world

00:52:34.340 of whatever that is

00:52:35.860 so it's this new niche

00:52:36.900 I'm just exploring and see where it goes

00:52:38.840 That's my hope

00:52:39.820 that actually the current kind of pressure cooker

00:52:43.940 and restrictive culture

00:52:46.980 can get pushback from something like

00:52:50.260 comedy unleashed where you get people coming through who are actually willing to be transgressive

00:52:54.640 and when the numbers are there to back it up eventually it takes off as the new counterculture

00:52:59.420 that's my hope that's my hope as well yeah but it's a strange world you don't really know what

00:53:03.520 what that career is you're just in the dark really you're just sort of hacking away just

00:53:07.580 you just because it doesn't really there's no structure that exists there because it's a new

00:53:13.000 platform like we did that comedy leach pilot and they're going to try and sell it we have to make

00:53:16.760 our own distribution platforms and things like that as you guys know yeah and but i think that's

00:53:21.680 very exciting because when you create your own platform you have true freedom to be who you are

00:53:26.940 say what you want write the comedy that you want because you're no longer answerable to these

00:53:31.400 gatekeepers right right i'm just hoping for like better gatekeepers as well like that you know

00:53:37.800 things like gb news talk radio spike these things i do they're they're sort of gatekeepers on it in

00:53:42.540 a way but in a much different way but like i say or just do it yourself which you guys are doing

00:53:46.700 which i should probably do more of but hey but nick thank you so much for coming on the show

00:53:52.280 uh before we do some questions for locals we always ask our one final question which is what's

00:53:57.260 the one thing we're not talking about but we really should be now what's the one thing do

00:54:01.940 you mean we as a culture yes yeah what's the one thing we're not talking about well i thought it

00:54:07.240 was um straight white male comedians not getting gigs but that was a huge mistake that turned out

00:54:12.880 to be a huge mistake you're not allowed to talk about that there's almost we almost can't talk

00:54:16.340 about anything can we i mean there's almost nothing you can talk about in the culture now

00:54:20.140 without getting in trouble so i don't know i mean the part of the culture that we inhabit we kind

00:54:24.960 of talk about whatever we want on here so far away well the thing is everyone is talking about

00:54:30.740 like this trans thing springs to mind people get in huge trouble about that i just think i think

00:54:35.580 i think we are talking about everything but anything you talk about there's going to be

00:54:40.440 two sides there's going to be immense conflict on Twitter straight away I mean there's this idea of

00:54:44.460 the silent majority I'm not even totally sure it exists but I think we are I can't think of anything

00:54:50.020 we're not talking about because we are someone is talking about everything but as soon as you say

00:54:54.840 anything you're going to have immense pushback and immense hatred online but I can't think of

00:54:58.920 one topic that's not brought up I can just I just think of a range of topics that aren't you're not

00:55:03.400 allowed to talk about which is virtually everything but in the mainstream yeah but everyone everyone

00:55:10.060 is talking about everything but but they're just but they're not allowed to talk about any of it

00:55:13.960 that's my position does that make any sense yeah yeah i guess what you're saying is there are lots

00:55:18.660 of things that you're not supposed to talk about but people do talk about it but it's scary to do

00:55:24.560 so because the risk of cancellation right on whatever is right right so we're always talking

00:55:29.680 about everything we're always talking about race we're talking about trans issues we're talking

00:55:32.420 about all issues we actually are talking about them but in a very in a very heated atmosphere

00:55:37.500 where you can't actually talk freely about them.

00:55:39.980 So that's what I think has happened.

00:55:41.180 Yeah, it's a very good point.

00:55:42.380 It's a very good point.

00:55:43.240 Nick, if people want to find your work online,

00:55:45.280 where would be the best place to do that?

00:55:47.060 Well, it's at NickDixonComic on Twitter.

00:55:50.020 Nick, D-I-X-O-N Comic on Twitter, Instagram, all those things.

00:55:54.500 I've got my Spikes articles.

00:55:56.400 I'm on Medium.

00:55:57.740 Nick Dixon, you find me.

00:55:58.680 I get paid if you read my Medium articles.

00:56:02.120 So they're inspirational articles.

00:56:03.340 They're more like uplifting.

00:56:04.540 I did one about my fitness journey, guys.

00:56:06.300 It's very uplifting.

00:56:06.920 so yeah

00:56:07.700 but at Nick Dixon comic

00:56:08.700 and you'll find it all

00:56:10.740 alright

00:56:11.300 Nick thanks so much

00:56:12.340 for coming on

00:56:12.880 and thank you for watching

00:56:14.220 and listening at home

00:56:15.100 we'll see you very soon

00:56:16.260 with another brilliant interview

00:56:17.280 like this one

00:56:17.920 or our show

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00:56:26.700 and see you soon guys

00:56:27.900 we hope you've enjoyed

00:56:30.680 this incredible interview

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TRIGGERnometry - October 11, 2021

Cancelled Comedian Speaks Out - Nick Dixon

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