TRIGGERnometry - ＂Climate Activism is a Religion＂

00:00:00.080 The planet is infected with us, we're all going to die.

00:00:04.460 Isn't that all true and correct?

00:00:07.120 It's certainly not true, and actually the history of the relationship between population growth

00:00:12.380 and abundance of natural resources is much more complex than people realize.

00:00:18.100 It's very interesting to see how extreme environmentalism maps onto Christian theology.

00:00:23.800 On the one hand, you've got your Garden of Eden, that's the world before industrialization,

00:00:30.080 you have your devils, fossil fuel, fossil fuel CEOs, people like that,

00:00:35.020 you have your saints, Greta Thunberg, you have your priesthood, which is the IPCC scientists,

00:00:40.520 and of course you even have indulgences, like back in the days before Reformation,

00:00:45.620 where you are allowed to fly around the world on a private jet,

00:00:49.780 but so long as you give a few thousand pounds or dollars to a green cause,

00:00:53.740 all those sins are simply washed away.

00:00:55.600 And one of the fundamental features of any religion, any religion, is apocalypse, is the end of days.

00:01:04.460 What we are saying is that if the world is going to end,

00:01:08.080 it will certainly not end because we are going to run out of natural resources.

00:01:12.100 The British energy problems are not an outcome of physical limits on fossil fuels

00:01:18.480 or energy that can be produced in the world.

00:01:21.340 They are an outcome of stupid decisions made by your politicians for the last 20 years.

00:01:26.380 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:39.340 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:40.660 I'm Constantine Kissinger.

00:01:41.900 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:47.120 Our brilliant guest today is the editor of humanprogress.org,

00:01:50.600 a senior fellow at the Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity,

00:01:54.300 whose latest book is called Super Abundance,

00:01:56.580 the story of population growth, innovation, and human flourishing on an infinitely bountiful planet.

00:02:02.580 Very loaded.

00:02:03.840 Mariam Tupi, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:02:05.980 Thank you very much for having me.

00:02:07.140 It's a great pleasure.

00:02:08.480 It's great to have you on.

00:02:09.400 Before we talk about your book and your very interesting views on the world,

00:02:14.040 tell everybody who are you, how are you, where you are,

00:02:16.760 what brings you to be sitting here talking to us?

00:02:18.940 Well, I guess it starts with my birth in Czechoslovak's Socialist Republic.

00:02:26.780 And that's really my background.

00:02:30.880 Then when I was a child, my parents moved to South Africa.

00:02:34.600 Later, I went to Great Britain.

00:02:36.580 I studied at St. Andrew's University.

00:02:38.840 And I've been in Washington, D.C. at the Cato Institute,

00:02:42.960 which is a libertarian think tank, for the last 20 years.

00:02:45.940 And as you mentioned, I run a website called humanprogress.org,

00:02:49.840 which is basically just a website trying to document and promote the notion that the world is improving

00:02:56.800 along many different dimensions of human well-being.

00:03:00.700 And that led me to writing a book about population and innovation and natural resources.

00:03:07.080 Well, speaking of all of that, Maren,

00:03:10.980 the self-evident truth that everyone's been completely persuaded about for the last God knows how many years is

00:03:18.000 the planet's overpopulated, humans are the virus,

00:03:22.420 the planet is infected with us,

00:03:24.900 we're all going to die.

00:03:26.420 And as we die, we're going to make everything terrible.

00:03:29.280 Isn't that all true and correct?

00:03:31.320 It's certainly not true.

00:03:34.220 And actually, the history of the relationship between population growth and abundance of natural resources

00:03:40.660 is much more complex than people realize in our dumbed-down age.

00:03:46.640 For 2,500 years, people have been wondering,

00:03:49.580 what is the exact relationship between population growth and resources?

00:03:52.780 And people have been genuinely torn on the issue.

00:03:55.620 Not all of them were negative.

00:03:56.820 Ancient Greeks and ancient Chinese understood that, you know,

00:04:01.560 if you had too many people and marginal land,

00:04:03.960 at some point you could have famines and people would die off.

00:04:07.720 That's true.

00:04:08.380 And that happened often.

00:04:10.040 On the other hand, nations needed more people for the military and to pay taxes.

00:04:15.980 So there was always this sort of uneasy relationship between the two notions.

00:04:19.640 I think where the notion of overpopulation really became very toxic and very negativistic

00:04:27.820 was in England, actually in 1798,

00:04:32.220 when Thomas Malthus, who was an English-Anglican prelate,

00:04:37.380 published an essay on population,

00:04:40.760 where he basically showed what he thought he was showing mathematically,

00:04:45.640 that whereas population grows at a geometrical rate,

00:04:48.760 which is to say 1, 2, 4, 16, etc.,

00:04:52.440 food would only grow at an arithmetic rate,

00:04:55.720 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

00:04:57.500 And therefore, that sort of gave a scientific imprimatur to this notion

00:05:02.940 that too many people would lead to a catastrophe.

00:05:06.520 And that was picked up by the famous Stanford University biologist,

00:05:12.700 Paul Ehrlich, in his population bomb in 1968.

00:05:15.260 And, you know, people have been debating it ever since.

00:05:19.640 Now, I should perhaps say

00:05:21.800 that there has been, amongst intellectuals and academics,

00:05:27.900 a slight shift away from this sort of overpopulation,

00:05:32.060 overconsumption of resources,

00:05:33.540 this doomsterism.

00:05:36.660 But that has not penetrated the public consciousness.

00:05:42.740 So, to this day,

00:05:44.460 you can find the United Nations publishing press releases

00:05:47.860 saying that growth in population is going to create a worse world.

00:05:52.740 There is another website run by an NGO called Overshoot Day,

00:05:58.220 where they try to measure how many planets we would need

00:06:01.400 in order to feed humanity if it keeps growing.

00:06:05.200 We have the degrowth agenda.

00:06:08.800 We have the antinatalist agenda.

00:06:10.800 We have newspaper stories about how the world would be much better off

00:06:15.080 without any human beings in it.

00:06:18.020 And on the absolute far extreme,

00:06:20.760 we have people who have decided to take this issue into their own hands.

00:06:25.120 Some of the mass shooters in the United States

00:06:28.360 and also in Norway in the recent decade

00:06:31.100 have been driven by Malthusian concerns.

00:06:33.840 We had a horrific mass killing in the United States about four years ago,

00:06:38.460 where a man killed 22 people in El Paso

00:06:43.260 and left behind him a manifesto saying,

00:06:46.120 basically, you guys are using too many resources.

00:06:49.480 You won't stop.

00:06:50.640 Therefore, I have to do something about it

00:06:52.400 by killing as many of you as I can.

00:06:54.360 So the issue is very much still at the back of the public consciousness,

00:06:58.940 and this book is meant to somehow combat it.

00:07:03.980 And, Marian, why is it that so many people think

00:07:06.260 that overpopulation is a real danger for our planet

00:07:09.820 and the future of the human race?

00:07:12.400 I think it's because the notion of finitude of atoms,

00:07:17.560 which is absolutely true,

00:07:18.700 that the world really has only a finitude of atoms,

00:07:22.620 is actually quite commonsensical and intuitive,

00:07:28.520 which is to say,

00:07:29.120 if you have the finite quantity of atoms,

00:07:31.460 but you are increasing the people using those atoms,

00:07:34.820 then at some point you must run out.

00:07:37.580 But this ignores a very fundamental difference

00:07:41.280 between human beings and other animals.

00:07:43.500 We are animals, but we are animals who are capable of planning forward,

00:07:49.040 and we are animals capable of innovating out of our problems.

00:07:54.520 And that is done through human knowledge.

00:07:56.920 So American economist Thomas Sowell has a famous quote

00:08:01.800 where he says that the caveman had exactly the same amount of resources,

00:08:07.660 the same amount of atoms at his disposal as we do today.

00:08:11.080 But the difference between his standard of living and our standard of living

00:08:14.780 is the knowledge we are able to bring into the world

00:08:17.680 and use those atoms in a more intelligent way.

00:08:24.020 A perfect example of this would be the difference

00:08:26.900 between a Rolls-Royce driven out of a car dealership

00:08:31.380 worth half a million pounds,

00:08:33.160 and then when you smash it into the wall,

00:08:36.960 you know, the number of atoms are exactly equal.

00:08:41.120 But the value in the new Rolls-Royce and the destroyed Rolls-Royce

00:08:45.960 is obviously very different

00:08:47.720 because the atoms have been rearranged differently,

00:08:50.400 one in a very intelligent way

00:08:51.960 and the other one in a chaotic way.

00:08:54.560 So with the finite number of atoms,

00:08:57.620 we can still create an infinite amount of value.

00:09:01.380 That's what we are basically saying.

00:09:03.840 Another example, if I may, is iPhone.

00:09:08.460 iPhone is a great way of dematerializing the world.

00:09:16.100 In other words, we are saving a lot of atoms

00:09:18.300 that we don't have to put into television sets,

00:09:21.420 into cameras, into maps, into compasses,

00:09:24.720 into calculators, and all those other things

00:09:27.080 that we would have to have.

00:09:28.280 Instead, we put it on this device.

00:09:31.220 So that, I think, should,

00:09:34.800 I hope it goes some way into explaining

00:09:36.860 why the number of atoms in the world

00:09:38.740 is actually not a limiting factor

00:09:41.100 in terms of how much value we can create.

00:09:44.540 Do you think part of the narrative of overpopulation

00:09:48.680 comes from the fact that a lot of people

00:09:51.720 who would believe this live in cities?

00:09:53.480 Now, if you live in central London

00:09:56.020 and you experience central London

00:09:57.960 every day of the week

00:09:59.000 and you're trying to find a property in central London

00:10:01.300 and you're trying to get to the tube

00:10:03.360 and it would feel all the time

00:10:06.200 like you were living in a constant state

00:10:08.200 of overpopulation.

00:10:10.480 It's possible,

00:10:11.520 but there are other parts of the world

00:10:13.320 where people don't necessarily feel gloomy

00:10:15.840 about the future

00:10:16.520 because there are too many people

00:10:18.240 living on top of each other.

00:10:19.380 The Chinese, at least until recently,

00:10:22.920 had a very positive attitude about the future

00:10:25.640 even though they lived on top of each other

00:10:28.580 in a few very important and very popular cities.

00:10:31.780 Hong Kong is an example of a territory

00:10:34.740 which has a very high level of population density

00:10:38.980 and yet it was a very vibrant place

00:10:41.180 where people apparently were very happy

00:10:42.820 because they kept on moving there.

00:10:44.360 I think that if we are looking at the source

00:10:48.500 of discomfort

00:10:49.280 and a sense of dejection about the future,

00:10:53.180 it may come from the fact that in Britain

00:10:55.820 you cannot build that many houses

00:10:57.460 or rather not that you cannot build that many houses

00:10:59.620 but you refuse to build that many houses

00:11:01.560 of governmental policy.

00:11:03.520 And by the way, I'm not bashing Britain.

00:11:05.000 I've spent five years in a beautiful country

00:11:07.380 and I love it.

00:11:08.540 We have the same problem in the United States.

00:11:10.980 It's not that all of these people

00:11:12.860 living in the cities, you know,

00:11:15.160 are concerned about overpopulation

00:11:16.560 is just that they've decided

00:11:18.020 that you're not going to build in my backyard.

00:11:21.220 I like my little house, you know,

00:11:24.400 and I don't want you to build any more.

00:11:30.400 That is a concern,

00:11:32.480 but I think it's policy driven

00:11:34.320 rather than driven by some sort of

00:11:36.200 a fundamental physical lack of space.

00:11:39.840 I mean, if you wanted to,

00:11:40.860 you could build a brand new city

00:11:42.260 in the United Kingdom

00:11:43.020 full of skyscrapers

00:11:45.400 and, you know,

00:11:46.580 create half a million housing units that way.

00:11:49.080 But you've made a decision not to.

00:11:52.100 Maren, before,

00:11:53.220 I want to hear from you

00:11:54.460 because in the book you talk about

00:11:55.840 the figures around all of this

00:11:57.620 and the fact that

00:11:58.680 actually every new human being

00:12:01.280 on average produces more resources

00:12:03.560 than they take up

00:12:04.540 and you explain why this is

00:12:05.700 and I want to get into all of that.

00:12:07.420 But I want to talk a little bit

00:12:08.780 about the cultural and philosophical

00:12:10.180 underpinnings of all of this

00:12:11.600 because I hear you,

00:12:13.100 the Malthusian view begins to take over

00:12:15.260 and blah, blah, blah.

00:12:16.260 But there's got to be a reason.

00:12:18.400 I feel like there's got to be also

00:12:20.800 a cultural and a philosophical explanation

00:12:22.940 of why so many people

00:12:25.140 find appealing some of these things

00:12:29.880 that we now hear.

00:12:31.080 We've got 12 harvests left.

00:12:32.920 The world's about to end.

00:12:34.340 We've got a climate crisis.

00:12:35.720 We've got a population bomb.

00:12:37.920 We've got a this.

00:12:38.680 We've got a that.

00:12:39.720 Why are so many people,

00:12:42.460 and I, by the way,

00:12:44.040 don't even exclude myself

00:12:45.380 because until I started looking at the data

00:12:47.440 and talking to people like you

00:12:48.840 and Peter Zahan

00:12:49.700 and a bunch of others,

00:12:50.880 I was very persuaded by,

00:12:52.960 instinctively persuaded

00:12:54.120 without looking at the data

00:12:55.500 by some of these arguments.

00:12:57.800 So what is it about our culture

00:12:59.540 in this moment

00:13:01.480 and in the recent history

00:13:03.020 that makes us so susceptible

00:13:05.120 to this idea

00:13:06.240 that we are a plague on the planet?

00:13:09.980 I think that part of it

00:13:11.480 has to do with the decline

00:13:13.120 of traditional religion.

00:13:15.500 I personally am not religious,

00:13:18.340 but I do buy into

00:13:20.320 G.K. Chesterton's famous quote

00:13:24.140 where he said that

00:13:25.800 when people stop believing in God,

00:13:27.740 they don't believe in nothing.

00:13:28.800 They believe in anything.

00:13:29.580 And I think that human beings

00:13:31.240 have this fundamental need

00:13:35.280 for the transcendental, right?

00:13:36.800 So we are the only species

00:13:38.020 in the world

00:13:38.680 who are capable of

00:13:40.020 foreseeing our death.

00:13:43.360 You know,

00:13:43.660 an antelope running

00:13:44.820 through the African bush,

00:13:47.900 she or he understand

00:13:50.300 that, you know,

00:13:52.160 they could be eaten by a lion.

00:13:54.580 They're running away

00:13:55.340 to save their lives,

00:13:56.220 but they don't have a sense

00:13:57.260 of finitude of their lives.

00:13:58.600 They don't realize

00:13:59.620 that, you know,

00:14:00.300 they will grow older and die.

00:14:02.420 They don't have a need

00:14:03.620 for the transcendental.

00:14:04.500 But human beings do.

00:14:06.620 They need to get

00:14:08.000 some sort of a meaning

00:14:08.820 out of their lives.

00:14:09.820 Now, in the old days,

00:14:11.060 obviously, religion,

00:14:12.680 be it Judaism

00:14:13.600 or Christianity

00:14:14.760 or Islam,

00:14:18.740 provided that kind of certainty.

00:14:22.100 but without it,

00:14:24.580 people still need

00:14:25.980 a search for the transcendental.

00:14:28.380 They still need to commit

00:14:29.500 their lives to a meaning,

00:14:31.520 to some sort of a heroic

00:14:32.640 vision of themselves.

00:14:34.600 What is it that they are

00:14:35.420 trying to accomplish

00:14:36.200 with their lives

00:14:36.920 aside from going to work?

00:14:38.800 And I think that many people,

00:14:40.920 especially in secular societies,

00:14:42.220 have embraced

00:14:43.200 extreme environmentalism

00:14:44.640 as a substitute for religion.

00:14:46.020 It's very interesting

00:14:48.460 to see how

00:14:49.440 extreme environmentalism

00:14:50.920 maps onto Christian theology.

00:14:53.380 On the one hand,

00:14:54.380 you've got your

00:14:55.120 Garden of Eden.

00:14:56.520 That's the world

00:14:57.580 before industrialization.

00:14:58.980 you have your devils,

00:15:02.380 fossil fuel,

00:15:03.900 fossil fuel CEOs,

00:15:05.040 people like that.

00:15:05.740 You have your saints,

00:15:06.640 Greta Thunberg.

00:15:08.620 You have your priesthood,

00:15:10.120 which is the IPCC scientists.

00:15:12.480 And of course,

00:15:12.880 you even have indulgences

00:15:14.100 like back in the days

00:15:15.820 before Reformation

00:15:17.040 where you are allowed

00:15:19.080 as one of the chosen few

00:15:21.760 to fly around the world

00:15:24.520 on a private jet.

00:15:25.820 But so long as you give

00:15:26.820 a few thousand pounds

00:15:27.820 or dollars

00:15:28.440 to a green cause,

00:15:29.820 all those sins

00:15:30.620 are simply washed away.

00:15:31.820 That is why somebody

00:15:32.780 like Leo DiCaprio

00:15:33.780 or John Kerry

00:15:34.620 or Emma Thompson

00:15:37.180 can go on the telly

00:15:38.960 having just flown

00:15:39.960 in the first class

00:15:40.820 and be good environmentalists.

00:15:43.580 Their sins have been

00:15:44.260 washed away

00:15:44.820 by saying the right incantations

00:15:47.660 and saying the right amount

00:15:48.840 of money to these green causes.

00:15:50.320 So that's a very long way

00:15:51.300 of saying that.

00:15:51.960 I think that there are

00:15:52.960 religious overtones

00:15:54.880 to environmentalism.

00:15:56.500 And one of the fundamental features

00:15:58.420 of any religion,

00:15:59.940 any religion,

00:16:00.800 is apocalypse,

00:16:02.840 is the end of days,

00:16:05.100 the world that ends

00:16:06.780 and is going to reconstitute itself

00:16:08.840 in some way.

00:16:10.840 And Christianity has it,

00:16:12.860 Islam has it,

00:16:14.180 Judaism has it,

00:16:15.640 Hinduism,

00:16:16.180 Buddhism have it.

00:16:17.080 some religions

00:16:19.520 like Christianity

00:16:20.480 are working up

00:16:22.240 to the end of days

00:16:23.500 where the world will end.

00:16:25.040 Others have a circular

00:16:26.640 or cyclical

00:16:28.180 religious belief

00:16:30.640 where the world

00:16:31.640 will be destroyed

00:16:32.680 but then it's going

00:16:33.400 to be renewed

00:16:34.080 and it's an eternal cycle

00:16:36.060 like that.

00:16:36.600 But all of them

00:16:37.200 have this notion

00:16:38.000 of an apocalypse.

00:16:40.260 And so I think

00:16:42.020 that that plays

00:16:42.720 a very large role

00:16:44.040 in why people

00:16:44.980 keep on embracing

00:16:47.080 these apocalyptic views.

00:16:48.600 One of the statistics

00:16:50.360 I'm very proud

00:16:51.380 in the book

00:16:52.400 that we have found

00:16:53.260 is that

00:16:53.880 the number of

00:16:55.640 apocalyptic movies

00:16:56.880 has been growing

00:16:58.200 every decade

00:16:59.300 since the 1950s

00:17:00.660 even though

00:17:01.220 the world has improved

00:17:02.380 along very many

00:17:03.420 different dimensions.

00:17:04.760 We live longer,

00:17:06.080 we live healthier lives,

00:17:07.520 we are much richer,

00:17:08.640 poverty is collapsing

00:17:10.860 around the world.

00:17:11.720 But with every decade

00:17:13.560 the number of

00:17:14.360 apocalyptic movies

00:17:15.400 is actually increasing

00:17:16.520 with one exception

00:17:17.540 that it was 1990s

00:17:18.840 because of the

00:17:19.740 peaceful resolution

00:17:20.620 of the Cold War.

00:17:22.180 Right.

00:17:23.260 That makes so much sense

00:17:24.860 and really,

00:17:26.200 really profound points,

00:17:27.660 Maren.

00:17:27.960 I love it.

00:17:29.140 So convert me.

00:17:31.820 Make me an

00:17:32.780 anti-apocalyptic

00:17:33.940 pro-human

00:17:35.280 expansion person.

00:17:38.140 What are the facts?

00:17:39.460 What is the data?

00:17:40.600 What should people know?

00:17:42.480 Well, it's not,

00:17:43.780 in the book

00:17:44.340 we don't argue

00:17:45.180 that apocalypse

00:17:46.140 cannot happen.

00:17:47.480 This is not a book

00:17:48.640 which predicts

00:17:49.440 the future.

00:17:50.080 There are plenty

00:17:50.620 of ways in which

00:17:51.620 humanity could

00:17:52.240 destroy itself.

00:17:53.780 We have plenty

00:17:54.620 of nuclear weapons.

00:17:55.960 We have a madman

00:17:57.220 in Europe

00:17:58.160 currently threatening

00:17:59.540 to use them.

00:18:00.600 That's just one way

00:18:01.700 in which

00:18:02.360 apocalypse

00:18:03.740 could be brought about.

00:18:05.380 We could have

00:18:06.320 another asteroid strike.

00:18:08.180 We could have

00:18:09.320 a pathogen

00:18:10.480 that we don't

00:18:11.020 really know

00:18:11.660 how to cure.

00:18:13.160 By the way,

00:18:13.640 one way

00:18:14.460 in which

00:18:15.420 having a bigger economy

00:18:17.240 and a richer economy

00:18:18.300 and continue to grow

00:18:19.360 economically

00:18:19.980 is that the richer

00:18:20.760 the society is,

00:18:22.180 the more likely

00:18:23.040 we are going to be able

00:18:24.120 to come up

00:18:25.200 with solutions

00:18:25.940 to future problems.

00:18:27.540 A society

00:18:28.320 50 years from now

00:18:29.420 which has

00:18:29.960 unlimited amount

00:18:30.940 of energy

00:18:31.520 created by fusion power,

00:18:33.080 for example,

00:18:34.220 could potentially

00:18:35.320 power an

00:18:36.300 extra strong

00:18:38.240 laser

00:18:38.980 that would destroy

00:18:40.000 an asteroid.

00:18:41.160 We cannot do it

00:18:42.080 right now

00:18:42.540 because

00:18:42.980 our knowledge

00:18:44.880 is too primitive

00:18:45.620 and our society

00:18:46.540 is not rich enough.

00:18:47.640 Or

00:18:48.040 if we are

00:18:49.520 extremely wealthy

00:18:50.340 in the future,

00:18:51.060 you know,

00:18:52.140 we could be

00:18:52.620 six times richer

00:18:53.520 on average

00:18:54.220 across the globe

00:18:55.200 by the year 2100.

00:18:56.680 If that happens,

00:18:57.680 then of course

00:18:58.160 the society

00:18:58.760 will have much more money

00:18:59.720 to do things

00:19:00.460 like we have just done,

00:19:01.680 which is to shut down

00:19:02.560 the society

00:19:03.120 for two years

00:19:03.980 to wait out

00:19:05.520 a COVID pandemic.

00:19:08.120 Part of the reason

00:19:09.040 why your current

00:19:09.760 economic reforms

00:19:10.660 are so difficult

00:19:11.500 to push through

00:19:12.280 is because

00:19:12.720 you've just burned

00:19:13.560 through half a trillion

00:19:15.200 pounds.

00:19:16.560 Here in this country,

00:19:17.440 we spend something

00:19:18.180 like four trillion dollars

00:19:19.800 to get through

00:19:21.180 the pandemic.

00:19:22.600 But let's imagine

00:19:24.020 the society

00:19:24.660 is extremely rich.

00:19:25.720 Well,

00:19:25.900 that would allow us

00:19:26.780 to shut down

00:19:27.520 the economy

00:19:28.000 if we needed to

00:19:28.860 for a few months

00:19:30.040 while we are looking

00:19:30.740 for a vaccine

00:19:32.280 for a new pathogen,

00:19:33.440 which you know

00:19:34.120 is coming

00:19:34.740 because on a molecular level,

00:19:36.940 evolution continues

00:19:37.960 to go on

00:19:38.780 and pathogens

00:19:40.160 are continuing

00:19:40.880 to evolve

00:19:41.620 to get around

00:19:42.480 our defense systems.

00:19:44.880 So there's a lot

00:19:46.380 of ways

00:19:46.840 in which the world

00:19:47.620 could come to an end

00:19:48.580 and we are not dismissing

00:19:49.640 all of those possibilities.

00:19:50.960 What we are saying

00:19:52.020 is that

00:19:53.340 if the world

00:19:53.880 is going to end,

00:19:54.680 it will certainly

00:19:55.300 not end

00:19:55.860 because we are going

00:19:56.480 to run out

00:19:57.140 of natural resources.

00:19:59.140 That's what we are saying.

00:20:00.200 We are trying

00:20:01.140 to remove

00:20:01.800 just one

00:20:02.620 of the bricks

00:20:03.640 in the wall

00:20:04.900 of the apocalyptic thinking

00:20:06.400 saying

00:20:07.480 to the extent

00:20:08.420 that you are worried

00:20:09.060 about natural resources,

00:20:10.100 you don't have to be

00:20:11.380 because we have plenty.

00:20:13.380 We are going

00:20:14.220 to have plenty.

00:20:16.100 If there is a resource

00:20:17.780 which is going

00:20:18.300 to go up in price

00:20:19.680 because it becomes

00:20:20.540 less abundant

00:20:21.920 and more scarce,

00:20:23.520 then a lot of things

00:20:24.920 are going to happen.

00:20:25.860 One thing

00:20:26.320 that's going to happen

00:20:27.020 is that we are going

00:20:27.740 to use less of it.

00:20:29.000 We are going

00:20:29.400 to create efficiency gains.

00:20:30.720 This can

00:20:32.400 of water

00:20:33.980 used to weigh

00:20:36.440 three pounds

00:20:37.660 of aluminum.

00:20:38.620 Now it weighs,

00:20:40.120 sorry,

00:20:40.500 three pounds,

00:20:41.500 three ounces

00:20:42.100 of aluminum.

00:20:43.580 Now it weighs

00:20:44.380 half an ounce.

00:20:46.380 We, of course,

00:20:47.540 replace things

00:20:48.840 which become expensive

00:20:49.860 with other things.

00:20:51.720 We no longer

00:20:52.260 kill whales

00:20:52.980 in order to produce candles.

00:20:54.500 We use electricity.

00:20:55.600 When prices go up,

00:20:58.680 we search for new deposits.

00:21:00.740 So there are many ways

00:21:01.880 in which humanity

00:21:02.560 get around the problem

00:21:03.580 of natural resources

00:21:06.380 becoming more expensive

00:21:07.740 in the short run.

00:21:08.660 In the long run,

00:21:09.340 however,

00:21:10.060 they are becoming

00:21:10.720 much less expensive.

00:21:12.360 So if you want,

00:21:12.880 we can get into the data.

00:21:15.040 Yeah.

00:21:15.540 Marion,

00:21:16.100 this is all

00:21:17.440 incredibly interesting

00:21:18.840 and just a refreshing change

00:21:21.740 from the narratives

00:21:22.400 that we've been

00:21:23.160 sort of forced to swallow.

00:21:26.740 How much of a problem

00:21:28.060 will depopulation be?

00:21:30.300 Because you touch upon it

00:21:31.800 in your book,

00:21:32.600 particularly when it comes

00:21:33.480 to China

00:21:34.040 and the Chinese economy.

00:21:36.380 Depopulation is going

00:21:37.220 to be problematic

00:21:38.080 along many different dimensions.

00:21:41.280 One is that

00:21:42.620 Western advanced countries,

00:21:46.080 social democracies

00:21:46.900 by and large,

00:21:47.840 and I include here

00:21:48.560 the United States,

00:21:49.440 which has a bigger social

00:21:50.700 safety net than Canada,

00:21:53.160 we have promised

00:21:54.380 so much to future generations

00:21:56.100 that we have no idea

00:21:57.140 how we are going to pay for.

00:21:58.500 Our social security

00:21:59.620 is a Ponzi scheme

00:22:00.760 based on the notion

00:22:01.720 that there are always

00:22:03.080 more people at the bottom

00:22:04.240 paying the retirees

00:22:05.500 at the top.

00:22:06.580 If that pyramid

00:22:07.580 now starts going like this,

00:22:10.140 then of course

00:22:10.660 our taxes

00:22:11.480 will have to go

00:22:12.940 massively up

00:22:13.900 in order to pay

00:22:15.260 for the promises

00:22:15.980 that we have promised

00:22:17.360 to future generations

00:22:18.280 in terms of social security.

00:22:20.460 Another problem

00:22:21.260 with the population

00:22:22.080 is going to be

00:22:22.700 national debt.

00:22:24.060 If you have few people

00:22:25.360 being taxed,

00:22:27.420 then it's going

00:22:28.260 to be so much harder

00:22:29.200 and so much longer

00:22:29.960 to pay down debt.

00:22:31.260 But the most important

00:22:32.200 reason why

00:22:33.760 why depopulation

00:22:36.280 could be a problem,

00:22:37.640 not could be,

00:22:38.620 but will be a problem,

00:22:40.020 is that

00:22:41.380 human beings

00:22:42.420 are the only entities

00:22:43.600 in the world

00:22:44.200 capable of having

00:22:45.080 new ideas.

00:22:45.900 and new ideas

00:22:48.020 lead to inventions

00:22:50.540 and those inventions

00:22:52.500 then get market tested

00:22:53.960 and out of that

00:22:55.520 you get innovations

00:22:56.380 which improve

00:22:57.500 productivity

00:22:58.160 and standards of living.

00:23:00.080 So,

00:23:00.760 without human beings,

00:23:02.680 no new ideas,

00:23:04.180 no new cancer drugs,

00:23:06.680 no better ways

00:23:08.240 of transport,

00:23:09.320 no new breakthroughs

00:23:11.260 in energy,

00:23:12.420 including clean energy.

00:23:13.500 We simply need people

00:23:14.960 in order to

00:23:16.400 innovate.

00:23:18.660 Nobody else

00:23:19.420 is going to do it

00:23:20.120 for us

00:23:20.740 unless we get AI

00:23:21.920 and I have no idea

00:23:24.200 if or when

00:23:25.080 that is going to happen.

00:23:27.120 Maren,

00:23:27.520 and how big a problem

00:23:28.820 is the Chinese situation

00:23:30.500 for China

00:23:31.240 but also for the world

00:23:32.280 as a whole

00:23:32.740 because it's one

00:23:33.760 of the biggest economies

00:23:34.640 that there is

00:23:35.340 and it's a manufacturing

00:23:36.520 powerhouse?

00:23:37.240 So,

00:23:38.620 I cannot quantify it.

00:23:39.760 What I can tell you

00:23:40.620 is that China

00:23:41.680 would have had

00:23:42.560 400 million

00:23:44.020 additional people today

00:23:45.260 but it's,

00:23:46.700 if it didn't have

00:23:47.540 the crazy one

00:23:48.280 child policy

00:23:49.260 between,

00:23:50.480 I don't know,

00:23:50.940 1978 and 2015

00:23:52.580 but much more importantly

00:23:54.220 its population pyramid

00:23:56.700 would look much healthier

00:23:57.880 than it is today.

00:23:58.760 I'm not necessarily

00:24:00.880 worried about

00:24:02.020 Chinese,

00:24:03.060 about Chinese

00:24:06.160 industrial power

00:24:08.340 because of course

00:24:08.920 we can move

00:24:09.880 production

00:24:11.280 to countries

00:24:12.420 like Bangladesh

00:24:13.320 and India

00:24:14.240 and many other places.

00:24:15.340 In some ways

00:24:16.080 it might be even preferable

00:24:17.260 because they are democracies

00:24:18.740 you know

00:24:20.240 and our relationships

00:24:21.900 with them

00:24:22.560 that is to say

00:24:23.180 British and American

00:24:24.080 relationships with them

00:24:25.380 will be better

00:24:26.020 in the future

00:24:26.620 than they are likely

00:24:28.080 to be in China

00:24:28.800 if Xi remains in power.

00:24:30.700 So,

00:24:31.320 I'm not terribly

00:24:31.780 worried about that.

00:24:32.880 I am worried

00:24:33.860 that

00:24:34.380 because of this

00:24:37.000 insane population policy

00:24:39.060 China

00:24:40.100 is reaching

00:24:41.860 a peak

00:24:42.600 which is to say

00:24:44.460 I don't believe

00:24:45.100 that China

00:24:45.560 is ever going to

00:24:46.320 catching up

00:24:49.040 with Western democracies.

00:24:51.100 GDP per capita

00:24:51.920 in the United States

00:24:52.720 is something like

00:24:53.260 $70,000

00:24:54.020 and China

00:24:54.800 is $10,000.

00:24:56.120 It's very difficult

00:24:57.140 to see China

00:24:58.020 becoming

00:24:58.380 seven times richer

00:25:00.020 in a situation

00:25:02.300 where they are

00:25:03.140 going to

00:25:03.560 where they are

00:25:04.280 turning more

00:25:05.020 dictatorial

00:25:05.760 both politically

00:25:06.540 but also economically.

00:25:08.000 Without economic freedom

00:25:09.340 political freedom

00:25:10.180 you cannot have

00:25:10.920 economic growth

00:25:11.740 because it's not just

00:25:13.440 population growth

00:25:14.380 but those people

00:25:15.200 also have to be free.

00:25:16.600 Right?

00:25:17.560 China has been

00:25:18.680 the largest

00:25:20.420 or the most populated

00:25:21.900 country

00:25:22.320 for at least

00:25:22.960 2,000 years

00:25:23.880 but they were dirt poor

00:25:24.840 until recently

00:25:25.660 because you need

00:25:28.100 people

00:25:28.580 but those people

00:25:29.740 must be free

00:25:30.420 to talk to each other

00:25:31.480 to write

00:25:32.280 to publish

00:25:33.360 to associate

00:25:35.060 to exchange ideas

00:25:36.120 and to criticize

00:25:36.840 each other's ideas.

00:25:38.800 And if China

00:25:39.400 is not going to have

00:25:40.100 freedom of speech

00:25:40.760 it cannot innovate.

00:25:41.880 Similarly

00:25:42.160 if it's not going to have

00:25:43.180 high level of economic freedom

00:25:44.700 then people

00:25:46.280 are not going to be allowed

00:25:47.160 to sell

00:25:47.740 to buy

00:25:48.340 to invest

00:25:48.960 to profit

00:25:49.580 and Xi

00:25:50.640 has been moving away

00:25:51.700 from economic freedom

00:25:52.660 for at least

00:25:53.300 10 years

00:25:54.080 so that tells me

00:25:55.660 that China

00:25:56.180 could be reaching

00:25:57.280 a peak

00:25:57.900 and that in itself

00:25:59.720 has potentially

00:26:01.140 negative consequences

00:26:02.160 because if China

00:26:02.940 believes

00:26:03.560 or the Chinese

00:26:04.220 leadership believes

00:26:05.000 that they're never

00:26:05.700 going to get stronger

00:26:06.740 than they currently are

00:26:08.320 this may be

00:26:09.440 their time

00:26:10.020 to attack Taiwan

00:26:11.160 and bring the world

00:26:12.540 into a conflict.

00:26:14.940 Maren

00:26:15.380 I'm really enjoying

00:26:17.500 this conversation

00:26:18.140 so much

00:26:18.600 you're making

00:26:19.000 some brilliant points

00:26:20.340 and one of the things

00:26:22.140 that you touched on

00:26:23.580 is something I talked

00:26:24.440 about in my book

00:26:25.360 but it seems to me

00:26:26.380 you have a much more

00:26:27.240 in-depth understanding

00:26:28.220 of the connection

00:26:29.040 between freedom

00:26:31.320 and prosperity

00:26:32.640 and I think this is

00:26:33.820 something that people

00:26:34.660 seem to have forgotten

00:26:35.760 for a while

00:26:36.440 and maybe that is

00:26:37.320 because we endlessly

00:26:39.280 hear about how

00:26:40.160 successful China

00:26:41.060 has been

00:26:41.580 in recent decades

00:26:42.820 and so on

00:26:43.400 but you touched on it

00:26:45.260 but explain to people

00:26:46.480 why is freedom

00:26:48.380 necessary for prosperity

00:26:50.400 for technological progress

00:26:52.220 for scientific progress?

00:26:54.940 Well China

00:26:55.500 has mimicked

00:26:57.180 a lot of

00:26:58.160 western

00:26:58.700 development

00:27:00.060 and I'm glad

00:27:01.200 for it by the way

00:27:02.040 I really am delighted

00:27:03.200 that 1.3 billion people

00:27:05.040 or how many they are

00:27:05.940 we cannot trust

00:27:06.820 the Chinese statistics

00:27:07.680 are much better off

00:27:09.220 than they used to be

00:27:09.940 at the time of Mao

00:27:10.760 when he killed

00:27:11.420 45 million

00:27:12.300 of his fellow citizens

00:27:13.340 and Chinese people

00:27:14.820 had to eat dirt

00:27:15.720 in order to survive

00:27:16.780 so I'm really delighted

00:27:18.280 about that

00:27:18.900 but what China

00:27:22.300 cannot do

00:27:23.120 very easily

00:27:23.940 in fact

00:27:24.460 I don't think

00:27:25.240 that it can

00:27:25.840 do it at all

00:27:26.960 is to produce

00:27:28.680 new

00:27:29.420 cutting edge

00:27:32.460 research

00:27:34.560 because for that

00:27:35.740 you need freedom

00:27:36.540 why are our

00:27:39.440 COVID vaccines

00:27:42.020 so much better

00:27:42.720 than they are

00:27:43.360 in China

00:27:43.960 is because

00:27:44.500 we are able

00:27:45.700 to rely

00:27:46.360 on much better

00:27:48.040 technology

00:27:48.580 we are able

00:27:49.320 to critique

00:27:50.140 each other

00:27:50.560 we have open

00:27:51.380 sourced

00:27:51.920 we have

00:27:54.020 data

00:27:55.160 which we have

00:27:55.760 to subject

00:27:56.260 to criticism

00:27:58.080 from fellow scientists

00:27:59.420 you know

00:28:00.100 and people

00:28:01.480 if they don't

00:28:02.140 like something

00:28:03.040 they don't have

00:28:03.600 to take it

00:28:04.200 you cannot force

00:28:05.780 somebody

00:28:06.160 to take the vaccine

00:28:07.580 and so

00:28:08.720 whereas in China

00:28:10.080 they have developed

00:28:11.000 an inferior product

00:28:12.240 which they are

00:28:12.880 forcing their people

00:28:13.740 to use

00:28:14.280 and that has

00:28:15.480 then knock on

00:28:16.820 consequences

00:28:17.520 such as having

00:28:18.160 to shut down

00:28:18.860 entire cities

00:28:19.640 and therefore

00:28:20.160 destroy your economy

00:28:21.320 the relationship

00:28:23.220 between

00:28:23.840 freedom

00:28:25.280 and intellectual

00:28:26.420 progress

00:28:26.880 is very interesting

00:28:27.900 and it has roots

00:28:29.140 in deep history

00:28:30.100 and if you'll

00:28:31.220 allow me

00:28:31.720 I'll

00:28:32.680 I'll talk

00:28:34.040 a little bit

00:28:34.560 about the

00:28:35.300 difference

00:28:36.260 between

00:28:36.840 the Chinese

00:28:38.280 empire

00:28:38.740 and Europe

00:28:39.660 so

00:28:40.780 empires

00:28:43.340 generally

00:28:44.080 are so large

00:28:45.220 that they are

00:28:45.920 not worried

00:28:46.660 about being

00:28:47.380 attacked

00:28:47.900 from the outside

00:28:48.880 China is not

00:28:49.940 worried about

00:28:51.420 being attacked

00:28:52.000 from the outside

00:28:52.720 China's biggest

00:28:54.600 concern

00:28:55.200 is domestic

00:28:56.740 tranquility

00:28:57.480 and the

00:28:58.940 greatest danger

00:28:59.860 to domestic

00:29:00.480 tranquility

00:29:01.080 is to have

00:29:01.900 free people

00:29:02.660 who are

00:29:03.340 swapping ideas

00:29:04.260 criticizing the

00:29:05.160 government

00:29:05.440 and so forth

00:29:06.300 so

00:29:07.040 Chinese government

00:29:08.500 for millennia

00:29:09.960 the same goes

00:29:11.320 for the Ottoman

00:29:11.980 empire

00:29:12.460 for the Russian

00:29:13.120 empire

00:29:13.700 and many other

00:29:15.220 empires

00:29:15.680 that have come

00:29:16.220 and gone

00:29:16.600 their biggest

00:29:18.300 concern was

00:29:19.080 to clamp down

00:29:20.040 on

00:29:20.540 domestic

00:29:22.160 dissent

00:29:22.700 again

00:29:23.080 they are not

00:29:23.560 worried about

00:29:24.140 outside

00:29:24.540 they are worried

00:29:25.140 about problems

00:29:26.040 inside

00:29:26.600 and so

00:29:27.000 they squash

00:29:27.640 any kind

00:29:29.020 of innovativeness

00:29:30.120 Europe

00:29:31.400 was different

00:29:32.120 and it is

00:29:33.100 for that reason

00:29:33.780 in my

00:29:34.360 humble opinion

00:29:35.140 why

00:29:35.720 industrial

00:29:37.320 revolution

00:29:37.880 and the

00:29:38.740 enlightenment

00:29:39.080 starts in

00:29:39.940 Europe

00:29:40.220 and which

00:29:40.660 is to say

00:29:41.140 that whereas

00:29:41.620 the Europeans

00:29:42.140 had empires

00:29:43.220 on the outside

00:29:44.040 they conquered

00:29:44.680 other peoples

00:29:45.420 Europe was

00:29:46.580 never conquered

00:29:47.320 after the fall

00:29:48.260 of the Roman

00:29:48.700 empire

00:29:49.180 Charles V

00:29:51.220 tried to do

00:29:52.200 it in the

00:29:52.940 16th century

00:29:53.800 Louis XVI

00:29:55.060 tried to do

00:29:55.800 it in 17th

00:29:56.700 century

00:29:57.060 Napoleon

00:29:57.820 did it

00:29:58.380 but then

00:29:58.820 lost it

00:29:59.980 and he never

00:30:01.280 conquered

00:30:01.580 Britain

00:30:01.960 but the point

00:30:02.960 is that

00:30:03.280 Europe was

00:30:03.740 always dismembered

00:30:04.980 Europe was

00:30:05.520 always

00:30:06.140 disjointed

00:30:07.440 and so

00:30:08.680 there was a lot

00:30:09.200 of competition

00:30:09.800 going on

00:30:10.480 between

00:30:10.800 different

00:30:11.460 countries

00:30:11.960 in Europe

00:30:12.440 in Europe

00:30:13.320 what these

00:30:15.020 small countries

00:30:15.760 worried about

00:30:16.420 was not

00:30:17.300 internal dissent

00:30:18.420 it was that

00:30:19.760 they are going

00:30:20.100 to be swallowed

00:30:20.680 up by

00:30:21.880 competing

00:30:22.820 countries

00:30:23.500 and as a

00:30:25.080 consequence

00:30:25.500 they had to

00:30:26.540 allow for a

00:30:27.240 greater degree

00:30:27.900 of domestic

00:30:28.740 freedom

00:30:29.140 and they had

00:30:30.400 to attract

00:30:30.900 the best

00:30:31.380 brains

00:30:31.980 because that

00:30:33.780 allowed them

00:30:34.480 to innovate

00:30:35.100 both militarily

00:30:36.100 but also

00:30:36.780 financially

00:30:37.320 and economically

00:30:38.100 there

00:30:39.300 the European

00:30:40.300 way of

00:30:41.140 succeeding

00:30:41.940 and of

00:30:43.020 self-preservation

00:30:44.700 was basically

00:30:45.420 to generate

00:30:46.100 economic

00:30:46.800 growth

00:30:48.080 at home

00:30:49.000 and that

00:30:50.680 is

00:30:51.020 it is through

00:30:51.600 this competition

00:30:52.520 and a desire

00:30:54.140 for self-preservation

00:30:55.320 that

00:30:56.700 liberalism

00:30:59.400 with small

00:31:00.420 l

00:31:00.700 classical

00:31:01.320 liberalism

00:31:01.900 arose in

00:31:02.600 Europe

00:31:02.800 in the

00:31:03.100 18th century

00:31:03.760 Marian

00:31:05.240 it's so

00:31:06.640 interesting

00:31:07.280 what you're

00:31:08.240 speaking about

00:31:09.080 because right

00:31:10.040 the way

00:31:10.360 through

00:31:10.640 there's this

00:31:11.160 vein of

00:31:11.740 optimism

00:31:12.280 and I

00:31:13.120 find it

00:31:13.620 incredibly

00:31:14.140 jarring

00:31:14.540 because I'm

00:31:14.960 a rabid

00:31:15.520 pessimist

00:31:16.260 and looking

00:31:18.200 at the

00:31:18.540 world

00:31:18.840 now

00:31:19.340 it seems

00:31:21.080 as if

00:31:21.540 resources

00:31:22.160 are going

00:31:22.500 to be

00:31:22.700 more scarce

00:31:23.460 than ever

00:31:23.920 we have

00:31:24.280 an energy

00:31:24.720 crisis

00:31:25.260 we have

00:31:26.340 the war

00:31:26.740 in Ukraine

00:31:27.300 we have

00:31:28.520 that and

00:31:29.420 how that's

00:31:29.940 going to

00:31:30.160 impact

00:31:30.560 and how

00:31:31.240 it's going

00:31:31.480 to cause

00:31:31.840 a food

00:31:32.320 crisis

00:31:32.960 is there

00:31:35.000 room for

00:31:35.560 optimism

00:31:36.120 amongst

00:31:36.720 all of

00:31:37.260 this

00:31:37.600 with all

00:31:39.940 of this

00:31:40.220 situation

00:31:40.820 as we

00:31:41.540 see it

00:31:41.920 at the

00:31:42.180 moment

00:31:42.460 the

00:31:44.200 British

00:31:44.560 energy

00:31:45.020 problems

00:31:45.580 are not

00:31:46.480 an outcome

00:31:47.160 of physical

00:31:48.140 limits

00:31:48.700 on fossil

00:31:49.380 fuels

00:31:49.780 or energy

00:31:50.520 that can

00:31:50.960 be produced

00:31:51.440 in the

00:31:51.740 world

00:31:52.000 they are

00:31:53.160 an outcome

00:31:53.760 of stupid

00:31:54.580 decisions

00:31:55.140 made by

00:31:55.800 your politicians

00:31:56.440 for the

00:31:56.840 last 20

00:31:57.300 years

00:31:57.660 and maybe

00:31:58.820 even longer

00:31:59.340 in Europe

00:32:00.660 on the

00:32:01.020 continent

00:32:01.380 it's the

00:32:01.900 same thing

00:32:02.600 it's not

00:32:03.220 an outcome

00:32:03.740 of climate

00:32:06.060 change

00:32:06.740 it's an

00:32:07.460 outcome

00:32:07.840 of climate

00:32:08.600 policies

00:32:09.420 we moved

00:32:10.600 too quickly

00:32:11.400 without having

00:32:12.720 a plan

00:32:13.300 to

00:32:14.880 basically

00:32:16.360 eliminate

00:32:18.000 as much

00:32:18.940 as possible

00:32:19.460 fossil fuels

00:32:20.360 whatever your

00:32:21.400 view on fossil

00:32:22.000 fuels

00:32:22.220 I'm not

00:32:22.600 taking a

00:32:22.980 position on

00:32:23.520 this

00:32:23.760 I do

00:32:25.100 believe

00:32:25.480 that

00:32:25.900 emitting

00:32:26.540 ever more

00:32:27.060 CO2

00:32:27.500 in the

00:32:27.680 atmosphere

00:32:28.080 is a

00:32:28.380 problem

00:32:28.680 but clearly

00:32:29.900 the timeline

00:32:31.220 and the

00:32:31.780 plan

00:32:32.220 that our

00:32:32.820 politicians

00:32:33.240 have come

00:32:33.680 up with

00:32:34.080 was completely

00:32:34.940 unrealistic

00:32:35.680 we are not

00:32:37.020 paying a

00:32:37.540 price for

00:32:38.160 there being

00:32:38.660 too little

00:32:39.160 oil or gas

00:32:40.180 in the

00:32:40.520 world

00:32:40.860 or uranium

00:32:41.840 we are

00:32:43.100 paying a

00:32:43.560 penalty

00:32:43.900 for politicians

00:32:44.940 forcing us

00:32:45.880 into energy

00:32:47.280 consumption

00:32:47.820 patterns

00:32:48.560 which were

00:32:49.800 not congruent

00:32:50.960 with reality

00:32:52.200 and that's

00:32:53.920 what the book

00:32:54.360 is about

00:32:54.800 the book

00:32:55.200 tells you

00:32:55.760 that there

00:32:56.080 is plenty

00:32:56.580 to be used

00:32:57.360 for hundreds

00:32:58.120 of thousands

00:32:58.620 millions

00:32:59.040 of years

00:32:59.520 we are never

00:32:59.960 going to run

00:33:00.400 out of

00:33:00.700 these

00:33:00.960 energy

00:33:04.920 sources

00:33:05.460 or natural

00:33:06.240 resources

00:33:06.860 but yes

00:33:08.420 as a society

00:33:09.200 we could

00:33:10.180 certainly

00:33:10.460 decide

00:33:10.920 not to

00:33:11.520 use them

00:33:12.080 and simply

00:33:12.620 to shut

00:33:13.000 off the

00:33:13.280 lights

00:33:13.620 and just

00:33:15.020 close the

00:33:16.540 door on

00:33:17.020 western

00:33:17.260 civilization

00:33:17.880 that we

00:33:18.340 could do

00:33:18.640 that

00:33:18.800 but that's

00:33:19.260 going to

00:33:19.500 be a

00:33:19.760 choice

00:33:20.080 it's not

00:33:20.740 going to

00:33:21.020 be forced

00:33:21.560 on us

00:33:22.840 by physical

00:33:23.780 limits

00:33:24.140 of the

00:33:24.380 planet

00:33:24.700 that's

00:33:25.360 what the

00:33:25.700 book

00:33:25.840 is about

00:33:26.180 Maren

00:33:27.020 but what

00:33:27.340 do you

00:33:27.480 mean

00:33:27.640 I remember

00:33:28.200 when I

00:33:28.600 was at

00:33:28.900 school

00:33:29.320 you know

00:33:29.740 I mean

00:33:30.120 all this

00:33:31.040 stuff should

00:33:31.420 have run

00:33:31.700 out by

00:33:32.100 now

00:33:32.440 coal was

00:33:33.000 going to

00:33:33.260 run out

00:33:33.540 by 2050

00:33:34.360 oil was

00:33:35.120 going to

00:33:35.400 run out

00:33:35.700 by 2020

00:33:36.360 I think

00:33:37.160 other stuff

00:33:38.260 was going to

00:33:38.620 run out

00:33:38.940 even earlier

00:33:39.540 we're never

00:33:40.800 going to run

00:33:41.240 out of oil

00:33:41.740 we're never

00:33:42.160 going to run

00:33:42.580 out of coal

00:33:43.100 we're never

00:33:43.460 going to run

00:33:43.920 out of those

00:33:44.440 resources

00:33:44.880 in a word

00:33:47.260 no

00:33:47.520 today we

00:33:48.380 have greater

00:33:49.020 known

00:33:49.800 resources

00:33:50.440 of oil

00:33:51.160 than we

00:33:51.680 had

00:33:52.060 100 years

00:33:52.740 ago

00:33:53.060 even though

00:33:53.820 we obviously

00:33:54.320 used a lot

00:33:55.100 of oil

00:33:55.620 in the

00:33:56.360 intervening

00:33:56.920 100 years

00:33:57.800 we also

00:33:58.700 have more

00:33:59.360 known

00:33:59.960 reserves

00:34:00.380 of natural

00:34:01.060 gas

00:34:01.460 and these

00:34:01.920 are known

00:34:02.540 reserves

00:34:03.080 they do

00:34:03.960 not mean

00:34:04.740 that those

00:34:05.860 are the

00:34:06.200 only reserves

00:34:07.040 in the

00:34:07.420 world

00:34:07.760 they are

00:34:09.600 the known

00:34:10.060 reserves

00:34:10.760 given the

00:34:11.800 price of

00:34:12.560 oil and

00:34:13.140 gas

00:34:13.500 today

00:34:14.100 in other

00:34:14.980 words it

00:34:15.380 pays us

00:34:16.140 to go

00:34:18.360 and explore

00:34:19.140 parts of

00:34:20.140 the world

00:34:20.520 to look

00:34:21.040 for additional

00:34:21.840 deposits

00:34:22.480 at this

00:34:23.100 price

00:34:23.580 if the

00:34:24.620 price was

00:34:25.280 twice as

00:34:26.300 high

00:34:26.580 we would

00:34:27.360 have twice

00:34:28.000 as much

00:34:28.520 of an

00:34:28.760 incentive

00:34:29.200 to go

00:34:29.760 and explore

00:34:30.640 other

00:34:31.220 parts of

00:34:33.680 the world

00:34:34.040 in search

00:34:34.840 for new

00:34:35.200 deposits

00:34:35.620 so those

00:34:37.140 are just

00:34:37.480 that's just

00:34:38.280 what we

00:34:38.600 know

00:34:38.900 but also

00:34:40.020 don't forget

00:34:40.840 that just

00:34:42.560 because we

00:34:43.300 are using

00:34:43.840 some sort

00:34:44.320 of an

00:34:44.580 energy

00:34:44.900 today

00:34:45.400 that doesn't

00:34:46.740 mean that we

00:34:47.360 are going to

00:34:47.740 be using

00:34:48.200 that energy

00:34:48.840 or natural

00:34:49.340 resource

00:34:49.960 100 or

00:34:50.740 200 years

00:34:51.540 from now

00:34:52.040 a perfect

00:34:53.020 example of

00:34:53.960 that would

00:34:54.500 be the

00:34:55.080 recent

00:34:56.200 craze and

00:34:58.060 the recent

00:34:58.620 concern around

00:34:59.840 the world

00:35:00.280 about lithium

00:35:01.200 and lithium

00:35:02.000 prices

00:35:02.520 so at

00:35:04.040 the moment

00:35:04.720 the commercially

00:35:06.220 viable

00:35:06.760 technology that

00:35:07.660 we have

00:35:08.200 in order

00:35:10.300 to produce

00:35:11.040 in order

00:35:13.040 to produce

00:35:13.520 electric

00:35:13.980 batteries for

00:35:14.960 our electric

00:35:15.780 vehicles is

00:35:16.600 lithium-ion

00:35:17.440 batteries and

00:35:18.520 they are very

00:35:18.880 good and

00:35:21.020 obviously you

00:35:22.520 can open a

00:35:23.140 newspaper on

00:35:23.720 any given

00:35:24.100 day and there

00:35:24.760 is going to

00:35:25.120 be probably a

00:35:25.780 story there

00:35:26.260 there is like a

00:35:27.000 high likelihood

00:35:27.500 there is going

00:35:27.880 to be a story

00:35:28.420 about you know

00:35:29.060 where are the

00:35:30.060 lithium deposits

00:35:30.880 how are we

00:35:32.100 going to get

00:35:32.660 to them

00:35:33.040 what if the

00:35:33.820 Chinese get

00:35:34.500 there first

00:35:35.040 who is to

00:35:36.140 say that we

00:35:36.800 are going to

00:35:37.160 be using

00:35:37.560 lithium-ion

00:35:38.360 in 10

00:35:38.860 years or

00:35:39.280 20 years

00:35:39.800 in order to

00:35:40.380 power electric

00:35:41.180 vehicles

00:35:41.680 there are

00:35:42.700 scientists who

00:35:43.300 are already

00:35:43.660 working on

00:35:44.320 sodium-ion

00:35:45.300 batteries which

00:35:46.120 is just

00:35:46.440 salt and

00:35:48.480 who knows

00:35:49.460 what is going

00:35:49.920 to be happening

00:35:50.580 in the future

00:35:51.020 so I think

00:35:52.100 that people

00:35:52.580 who are

00:35:52.940 concerned about

00:35:53.920 us running

00:35:54.560 out of

00:35:55.020 anything they

00:35:55.700 forget that

00:35:56.600 technology is

00:35:58.820 dynamic

00:35:59.460 technology always

00:36:00.880 changes and

00:36:02.700 just because we

00:36:04.040 are using

00:36:04.360 something today

00:36:05.020 doesn't mean

00:36:05.500 we'll need it

00:36:06.060 in the future

00:36:06.600 And why is it

00:36:09.420 Marian that

00:36:09.980 certain types

00:36:11.400 of energy

00:36:12.160 for instance

00:36:14.620 nuclear is

00:36:16.060 seen as

00:36:16.980 even though

00:36:17.760 it's cleaner

00:36:18.880 than the vast

00:36:19.720 majority of

00:36:20.320 others at our

00:36:21.160 disposal

00:36:21.620 we are less

00:36:23.600 reluctant to

00:36:24.220 use it

00:36:24.760 More reluctant

00:36:25.960 Sorry more

00:36:27.000 reluctant to use

00:36:27.680 it my apologies

00:36:28.260 absolutely

00:36:28.940 why is that?

00:36:31.800 Gosh

00:36:32.480 so having

00:36:34.860 spoken to

00:36:35.360 people who

00:36:36.040 have been

00:36:36.680 thinking and

00:36:37.740 looking around

00:36:38.300 this since

00:36:38.660 the 1970s

00:36:39.660 it seemed to

00:36:41.060 have been an

00:36:41.800 outcome of

00:36:42.660 the world

00:36:43.120 being greatly

00:36:44.160 concerned about

00:36:45.100 nuclear weapons

00:36:45.980 that at some

00:36:46.760 point that sort

00:36:47.740 of concern about

00:36:48.460 nuclear weapons

00:36:49.180 in the 60s

00:36:49.940 has sort of

00:36:51.060 sort of flown

00:36:52.400 over into

00:36:53.240 concern about

00:36:54.100 having nuclear

00:36:54.760 energy at all

00:36:56.140 in the United

00:36:58.320 States we had

00:36:59.480 the seven

00:36:59.900 miles island

00:37:01.600 seven mile

00:37:02.500 island nuclear

00:37:03.480 accident in

00:37:04.320 the 1970s

00:37:05.640 nobody died

00:37:07.160 but of course

00:37:08.380 Americans like

00:37:09.200 they always do

00:37:09.780 overreacted

00:37:10.780 and we stopped

00:37:11.720 building nuclear

00:37:12.480 power stations

00:37:14.000 ever since

00:37:14.800 I believe that

00:37:16.840 the agency

00:37:17.460 responsible for

00:37:18.560 nuclear safety

00:37:19.440 and permit

00:37:21.360 program for

00:37:22.480 American nuclear

00:37:23.620 power station

00:37:25.940 endeavor in

00:37:27.260 its 50-year

00:37:27.880 existence has

00:37:28.640 never given a

00:37:29.460 single permit

00:37:30.100 for a single

00:37:30.720 nuclear reactor

00:37:31.540 in the United

00:37:32.060 States so we

00:37:32.900 haven't built

00:37:33.400 anything in a

00:37:34.260 very very long

00:37:35.000 time

00:37:35.480 the other

00:37:37.900 thing is of

00:37:38.480 course that the

00:37:39.100 media simply

00:37:40.080 refuses to report

00:37:41.260 on one basic

00:37:42.340 fact is that

00:37:43.460 when you look

00:37:45.100 at people

00:37:46.460 dying from

00:37:47.260 different sources

00:37:48.120 of energy

00:37:48.780 nuclear is

00:37:49.860 one of the

00:37:50.620 safest

00:37:51.080 not only

00:37:53.420 is nuclear

00:37:54.580 good because

00:37:55.800 it doesn't

00:37:56.520 produce any

00:37:57.220 CO2 into

00:37:58.600 the atmosphere

00:37:59.240 which is what

00:38:00.120 I thought the

00:38:00.760 environmentalists

00:38:01.460 were concerned

00:38:02.100 about but it

00:38:03.340 doesn't kill

00:38:04.080 that many

00:38:04.560 people in

00:38:05.540 the nuclear

00:38:07.120 power creation

00:38:08.320 process very

00:38:09.180 few people

00:38:09.740 die on

00:38:11.320 site building

00:38:13.480 these nuclear

00:38:14.260 reactors for

00:38:15.020 example in

00:38:15.700 industrial

00:38:16.300 accidents

00:38:17.120 compared to

00:38:19.580 even building

00:38:21.620 of wind

00:38:23.280 farms

00:38:23.780 you know

00:38:24.340 or hydroelectric

00:38:25.820 dams

00:38:26.600 people always

00:38:27.520 die in

00:38:28.060 building of

00:38:28.500 these things

00:38:29.040 and nuclear

00:38:29.840 is actually

00:38:30.240 pretty safe

00:38:31.980 and of course

00:38:32.760 it beats the

00:38:33.420 hell out of

00:38:34.360 millions of

00:38:35.660 people who

00:38:36.080 die due to

00:38:37.140 indoor pollution

00:38:38.280 or burning

00:38:39.420 of biofuels

00:38:41.540 and things like

00:38:42.240 that

00:38:42.520 so

00:38:43.820 it's a

00:38:45.380 choice

00:38:46.160 that people

00:38:46.960 have made

00:38:47.540 the extreme

00:38:48.820 environmentalist

00:38:49.680 movement

00:38:49.980 and I want

00:38:50.520 to distinguish

00:38:51.120 very deliberately

00:38:52.500 and as

00:38:53.620 clearly as I

00:38:54.220 can

00:38:54.560 between smart

00:38:56.240 environmentalists

00:38:57.100 who get

00:38:57.520 this

00:38:57.880 and the

00:38:58.960 extreme

00:38:59.260 environmentalists

00:38:59.960 who don't

00:39:00.560 there has

00:39:01.340 been

00:39:01.800 recently

00:39:02.680 a shift

00:39:03.320 away

00:39:03.780 from this

00:39:05.260 you know

00:39:06.560 blanket

00:39:06.960 refusal to

00:39:07.980 consider

00:39:09.480 nuclear

00:39:09.860 power

00:39:10.300 and the

00:39:11.920 people are

00:39:12.260 looking at

00:39:12.600 it again

00:39:13.060 and I

00:39:13.440 hope that

00:39:13.900 we will

00:39:14.880 be seeing

00:39:15.520 a nuclear

00:39:17.760 renaissance

00:39:18.220 now

00:39:18.560 it would

00:39:19.120 be

00:39:19.320 I would

00:39:19.720 be amiss

00:39:20.380 if I

00:39:20.780 didn't

00:39:21.040 mention

00:39:21.440 that when

00:39:22.720 you consider

00:39:23.300 all the

00:39:24.040 costs

00:39:24.680 associated

00:39:25.640 with building

00:39:26.260 of nuclear

00:39:26.740 power

00:39:27.260 stations

00:39:29.640 and

00:39:31.200 even

00:39:32.040 carbon

00:39:34.260 tax

00:39:34.720 you know

00:39:35.260 negative

00:39:36.060 externalities

00:39:36.920 that natural

00:39:37.820 gas is still

00:39:39.060 a better

00:39:39.900 way of

00:39:40.540 powering

00:39:40.920 civilisation

00:39:41.580 than nuclear

00:39:42.280 it's still

00:39:42.740 cheaper

00:39:43.160 even when

00:39:44.980 you account

00:39:45.380 for negative

00:39:45.860 externality

00:39:46.580 of CO2

00:39:47.280 into the

00:39:48.440 atmosphere

00:39:49.600 but if

00:39:50.280 people are

00:39:51.180 almost

00:39:52.000 religiously

00:39:52.660 committed

00:39:53.000 to not

00:39:54.120 using fossil

00:39:54.840 fuels

00:39:55.260 then nuclear

00:39:56.020 is the way

00:39:56.500 to go

00:39:56.880 and hopefully

00:39:57.400 in the future

00:39:57.940 fusion

00:39:58.400 Marion do you

00:40:00.120 think we're

00:40:00.520 at a point

00:40:01.000 now as a

00:40:01.600 society

00:40:02.100 where we're

00:40:02.700 you know

00:40:03.380 we drunk

00:40:04.060 the Kool-Aid

00:40:04.740 a little bit

00:40:05.320 with Greta Thunberg

00:40:06.600 and you know

00:40:07.740 Extinction Rebellion

00:40:09.000 and saying you

00:40:09.700 know the world

00:40:10.160 has got 50

00:40:10.920 harvests left

00:40:11.880 it's 12

00:40:12.800 sorry 12

00:40:14.200 or whatever

00:40:14.660 it is

00:40:15.120 stop being

00:40:15.500 racist

00:40:15.980 stop being

00:40:16.580 right exactly

00:40:17.280 that these

00:40:18.040 people insist

00:40:18.860 upon and

00:40:19.520 taking school

00:40:21.460 children on

00:40:22.160 exile marches

00:40:23.320 but now that

00:40:24.200 we've got bills

00:40:25.080 coming and

00:40:25.980 hitting our

00:40:26.440 map which

00:40:26.920 are just

00:40:27.320 astronomically

00:40:28.560 high which

00:40:29.520 are going to

00:40:30.060 mean that a

00:40:30.520 lot of people

00:40:31.080 struggle to

00:40:31.800 pay their

00:40:32.200 bills

00:40:32.620 do you think

00:40:33.720 this is a

00:40:34.240 moment where

00:40:34.680 we're all

00:40:35.060 going to have

00:40:35.480 to wake up

00:40:36.180 and actually

00:40:36.700 realise what

00:40:37.620 we're dealing

00:40:38.100 with and how

00:40:38.640 important energy

00:40:39.520 is

00:40:39.880 I think that

00:40:41.580 we are waking

00:40:42.240 up and I

00:40:42.780 hope I think

00:40:44.300 there is a

00:40:44.720 reasonable chance

00:40:45.420 that we have

00:40:45.900 seen peak

00:40:46.800 apocalyptic

00:40:47.980 environmentalism

00:40:49.700 I have two

00:40:52.240 reasons to say

00:40:53.120 that one is

00:40:53.980 that half of

00:40:55.200 the world the

00:40:55.920 underdeveloped or

00:40:56.940 the developing

00:40:57.480 world is never

00:40:58.300 going to buy

00:40:58.960 into our

00:40:59.460 nonsense we

00:41:00.240 just have to

00:41:00.700 stop thinking

00:41:01.440 we just have to

00:41:02.360 stop thinking

00:41:03.020 and just don't

00:41:04.040 even pretend

00:41:04.880 that people

00:41:05.940 in India

00:41:06.480 and China

00:41:07.240 and Bangladesh

00:41:07.940 and Africa

00:41:09.160 which is still

00:41:10.260 very poor

00:41:10.880 are simply

00:41:11.800 going to start

00:41:12.620 using windmills

00:41:13.260 it's not going

00:41:14.760 to happen

00:41:15.140 for decades

00:41:15.780 they would have

00:41:16.340 to be at a

00:41:16.800 completely different

00:41:17.720 level of economic

00:41:18.520 development to

00:41:19.720 start playing

00:41:20.400 around with

00:41:21.000 wind farms

00:41:21.640 and whatever

00:41:22.180 so they're going

00:41:23.300 to be reliant

00:41:24.100 on coal

00:41:24.960 and natural

00:41:27.180 gas for a

00:41:27.880 long way to

00:41:29.220 come and even

00:41:29.860 that is better

00:41:30.760 than using

00:41:31.640 biofuels in

00:41:32.520 order to power

00:41:33.140 their own

00:41:33.660 societies

00:41:34.220 so that's

00:41:35.720 one half

00:41:36.220 of the population

00:41:36.960 the second

00:41:37.440 half of the

00:41:37.960 population

00:41:38.420 which are

00:41:38.860 the advanced

00:41:39.340 economies

00:41:39.880 like yours

00:41:40.420 and ours

00:41:41.080 are economies

00:41:43.080 which are

00:41:44.040 by and large

00:41:44.560 democratic

00:41:45.100 and I do

00:41:46.280 not believe

00:41:46.780 that with

00:41:47.780 any level

00:41:48.540 of brainwashing

00:41:49.420 coming from

00:41:50.260 Whitehall

00:41:51.000 or from

00:41:51.600 Greta Thunberg

00:41:52.500 or people

00:41:53.200 who glue

00:41:53.600 themselves to

00:41:54.260 roads

00:41:54.720 on M5

00:41:56.340 or whatever

00:41:57.560 it is

00:41:58.040 I don't think

00:41:59.360 with any

00:41:59.800 level of

00:42:00.680 that kind

00:42:04.100 of propaganda

00:42:04.700 and brainwashing

00:42:05.660 the good

00:42:06.980 people in

00:42:07.480 the United

00:42:07.820 Kingdom

00:42:08.200 are going

00:42:08.660 to decide

00:42:09.280 that this

00:42:10.740 is the future

00:42:11.280 they're going

00:42:11.640 to go

00:42:11.960 in other

00:42:12.340 words

00:42:12.500 democracy

00:42:12.980 is going

00:42:13.360 to win

00:42:13.840 and if

00:42:14.360 it's not

00:42:14.660 going to

00:42:14.920 be the

00:42:15.200 Tory party

00:42:15.840 which changes

00:42:16.600 the green

00:42:18.140 policies

00:42:18.660 and the

00:42:19.120 green

00:42:19.280 new deal

00:42:19.900 or net

00:42:21.820 zero

00:42:22.300 it's going

00:42:23.080 to be

00:42:23.300 somebody

00:42:23.560 else

00:42:23.900 and the

00:42:24.300 sooner

00:42:24.540 the British

00:42:24.960 political

00:42:25.420 establishment

00:42:26.080 awakes

00:42:27.700 to the

00:42:28.040 fact

00:42:28.380 that the

00:42:29.560 British

00:42:29.740 people are

00:42:30.200 suffering

00:42:30.580 and their

00:42:31.140 living

00:42:31.340 standards

00:42:31.760 are

00:42:32.000 collapsing

00:42:32.440 the less

00:42:34.640 likely it

00:42:35.160 is that

00:42:35.740 you will

00:42:36.020 have a

00:42:36.280 really nasty

00:42:36.840 party

00:42:37.280 emerging

00:42:37.840 that will

00:42:38.200 do it

00:42:38.480 for them

00:42:39.060 and that

00:42:39.580 is a

00:42:40.400 concern

00:42:40.820 that I

00:42:41.240 have

00:42:41.580 that we

00:42:42.120 still have

00:42:42.860 democracies

00:42:44.120 here in

00:42:44.700 the West

00:42:45.100 and if

00:42:46.600 our

00:42:47.020 centre

00:42:47.300 right

00:42:47.560 and centre

00:42:47.980 left

00:42:48.220 simply

00:42:48.580 refuses

00:42:49.060 to

00:42:49.300 acknowledge

00:42:49.660 that

00:42:49.900 lives

00:42:50.240 of our

00:42:50.640 people

00:42:50.940 are

00:42:51.160 getting

00:42:51.440 worse

00:42:51.860 by

00:42:52.100 government

00:42:52.520 design

00:42:53.380 somebody

00:42:54.940 else

00:42:55.200 is going

00:42:55.440 to fill

00:42:55.760 that void

00:42:56.300 and it

00:42:57.140 is that

00:42:57.480 void

00:42:57.820 that I

00:42:58.200 want to

00:42:58.540 avoid

00:42:58.920 well this

00:43:01.120 is a

00:43:01.440 problem

00:43:01.800 because

00:43:02.340 you see

00:43:03.380 all these

00:43:03.800 politicians

00:43:04.380 and all

00:43:04.860 these

00:43:05.160 celebrities

00:43:06.200 go on

00:43:06.780 TV

00:43:07.040 and go

00:43:07.380 look

00:43:07.560 we've

00:43:07.760 got a

00:43:08.040 consume

00:43:08.560 list

00:43:08.900 and yet

00:43:09.700 they're

00:43:10.040 the ones

00:43:10.460 going on

00:43:10.940 holidays

00:43:11.380 they're

00:43:11.780 the ones

00:43:12.140 using

00:43:12.500 private

00:43:13.000 jets

00:43:13.460 and

00:43:14.440 when

00:43:14.900 ordinary

00:43:15.480 people

00:43:16.060 can't

00:43:16.480 afford

00:43:16.740 to

00:43:16.940 heat

00:43:17.080 their

00:43:17.280 own

00:43:17.480 homes

00:43:17.880 and

00:43:18.180 many

00:43:18.820 of

00:43:18.940 them

00:43:19.080 in

00:43:19.200 their

00:43:19.360 businesses

00:43:19.880 and pubs

00:43:20.620 are having

00:43:20.960 to close

00:43:21.480 down

00:43:21.820 or shut

00:43:22.660 for a

00:43:23.000 prolonged

00:43:23.280 period

00:43:23.620 of time

00:43:24.080 you do

00:43:25.000 think

00:43:25.320 this is

00:43:25.740 going to

00:43:26.160 create

00:43:26.620 severe

00:43:27.700 civil

00:43:28.100 unrest

00:43:28.620 because

00:43:29.200 people

00:43:29.600 realise

00:43:30.160 it's

00:43:30.400 not

00:43:30.600 fair

00:43:30.960 yes

00:43:32.700 and part

00:43:33.280 of the

00:43:33.500 reason

00:43:33.800 why

00:43:34.280 the

00:43:34.560 public

00:43:34.980 in this

00:43:35.460 country

00:43:35.820 and in

00:43:36.380 yours

00:43:36.760 has the

00:43:37.920 politicians

00:43:38.340 in utter

00:43:39.080 contempt

00:43:39.740 is

00:43:40.120 precisely

00:43:40.580 because

00:43:40.940 they see

00:43:41.400 the level

00:43:41.920 of hypocrisy

00:43:42.840 that is

00:43:43.640 going on

00:43:44.240 in both

00:43:45.060 societies

00:43:45.600 I don't

00:43:46.520 have a

00:43:46.800 specifically

00:43:47.280 strong

00:43:47.820 feeling

00:43:48.140 about

00:43:48.420 guns

00:43:48.900 in this

00:43:49.840 country

00:43:50.160 which is

00:43:50.560 a very

00:43:50.980 toxic

00:43:51.420 subject

00:43:52.000 but

00:43:52.480 you always

00:43:53.080 see the

00:43:53.460 politicians

00:43:53.860 being well

00:43:54.460 protected

00:43:54.880 while other

00:43:55.980 people aren't

00:43:56.800 even though

00:43:57.260 crime is

00:43:57.780 rising in

00:43:58.360 the United

00:43:58.600 States

00:43:58.980 you see

00:44:00.080 them

00:44:00.520 constantly

00:44:01.380 raising

00:44:01.820 taxes

00:44:02.320 on air

00:44:04.280 travel

00:44:04.760 but they

00:44:05.400 themselves

00:44:05.880 fly around

00:44:06.700 on private

00:44:07.260 jets

00:44:07.640 or first

00:44:08.220 class

00:44:08.560 which is

00:44:08.940 much more

00:44:09.420 carbon

00:44:09.780 intensive

00:44:10.320 you see

00:44:11.580 them

00:44:11.760 telling

00:44:12.040 you to

00:44:12.500 drive

00:44:13.080 little

00:44:15.840 prices

00:44:17.020 while they

00:44:17.820 enjoy being

00:44:18.900 driven around

00:44:19.640 in SUVs

00:44:21.100 as big

00:44:21.880 as a

00:44:22.140 house

00:44:22.480 you see

00:44:23.620 them telling

00:44:24.080 you that

00:44:24.500 the world

00:44:24.900 is going

00:44:25.260 to be

00:44:25.500 swallowed

00:44:25.820 up by

00:44:26.800 the oceans

00:44:28.500 while at

00:44:29.340 the same

00:44:29.700 time they're

00:44:30.300 buying

00:44:30.700 beachfront

00:44:31.220 properties

00:44:31.700 and they

00:44:33.760 basically think

00:44:34.420 that we are

00:44:34.820 so stupid

00:44:35.360 and they

00:44:35.940 think that

00:44:36.380 they can

00:44:37.040 basically freak

00:44:37.820 us out

00:44:38.360 to an

00:44:38.740 extent

00:44:39.060 where

00:44:39.360 any

00:44:39.840 kind of

00:44:40.220 policy

00:44:40.600 can be

00:44:41.160 implemented

00:44:41.880 and to

00:44:42.400 that

00:44:42.580 extent

00:44:43.000 I was

00:44:44.080 actually

00:44:44.360 impressed

00:44:44.800 with some

00:44:45.340 of the

00:44:45.640 work done

00:44:46.220 in the

00:44:46.540 UK

00:44:46.800 by your

00:44:47.560 former

00:44:48.000 head of

00:44:48.480 your

00:44:48.700 Supreme

00:44:49.100 Court

00:44:49.500 Jonathan

00:44:49.860 Sumption

00:44:50.380 who was

00:44:51.560 deeply

00:44:52.180 concerned

00:44:52.840 that

00:44:53.420 the kind

00:44:55.100 of

00:44:55.400 public

00:44:56.340 reaction

00:44:56.920 to

00:44:57.160 COVID

00:44:57.480 you know

00:44:59.080 you end

00:44:59.740 up with

00:44:59.940 a Chinese

00:45:00.360 virus

00:45:00.680 but also

00:45:01.080 with a

00:45:01.360 Chinese

00:45:01.620 society

00:45:02.240 where

00:45:02.680 if people

00:45:03.140 can be

00:45:05.000 freaked

00:45:05.360 out

00:45:05.780 to

00:45:06.160 sufficient

00:45:06.640 extent

00:45:07.240 that

00:45:08.060 the

00:45:08.260 world

00:45:08.480 is

00:45:08.700 going

00:45:08.880 to

00:45:09.040 implode

00:45:09.700 that

00:45:10.220 they

00:45:10.420 would

00:45:10.640 be

00:45:10.800 willing

00:45:11.060 to

00:45:11.300 part

00:45:11.740 with

00:45:12.020 their

00:45:12.200 civil

00:45:12.460 liberties

00:45:12.780 and

00:45:13.120 their

00:45:13.280 basic

00:45:13.560 freedoms

00:45:14.000 on

00:45:15.060 the

00:45:15.200 other

00:45:15.380 hand

00:45:15.680 all

00:45:16.960 of

00:45:17.100 these

00:45:17.300 apocalyptic

00:45:17.920 predictions

00:45:18.480 have been

00:45:18.960 wrong

00:45:19.280 in the

00:45:19.560 past

00:45:19.940 and if

00:45:20.360 you put

00:45:20.620 a date

00:45:21.040 on it

00:45:21.480 if you

00:45:21.800 say

00:45:22.100 that we

00:45:22.420 only

00:45:22.600 have

00:45:22.840 five

00:45:23.160 or

00:45:23.340 ten

00:45:23.520 years

00:45:23.860 on

00:45:24.580 the

00:45:24.720 planet

00:45:24.940 left

00:45:25.340 and

00:45:25.620 that

00:45:25.860 time

00:45:26.560 expires

00:45:27.340 once

00:45:28.000 again

00:45:28.380 we will

00:45:29.000 have to

00:45:29.220 have a

00:45:29.420 conversation

00:45:29.900 about

00:45:30.240 whether

00:45:30.440 we

00:45:30.620 should

00:45:30.800 be

00:45:30.920 believing

00:45:31.580 these

00:45:31.860 people

00:45:32.200 what

00:45:33.180 credibility

00:45:33.800 do

00:45:34.140 they

00:45:34.320 have

00:45:34.640 and

00:45:35.140 do

00:45:35.240 they

00:45:35.380 also

00:45:35.640 realize

00:45:36.200 how

00:45:36.900 extraordinarily

00:45:37.580 it is

00:45:38.060 damaging

00:45:38.700 to

00:45:39.200 our

00:45:39.920 institutions

00:45:40.600 how are

00:45:42.740 we

00:45:42.860 supposed

00:45:43.080 to

00:45:43.360 believe

00:45:43.740 the

00:45:44.120 leadership

00:45:44.480 in

00:45:44.760 our

00:45:44.960 societies

00:45:45.420 when

00:45:45.680 they

00:45:45.820 get

00:45:46.020 these

00:45:46.320 calls

00:45:46.760 wrong

00:45:47.280 time

00:45:47.720 and

00:45:47.880 time

00:45:48.160 again

00:45:48.600 they

00:45:49.420 complain

00:45:49.980 about

00:45:50.240 populism

00:45:50.800 they

00:45:51.000 are

00:45:51.120 the

00:45:51.260 causes

00:45:51.580 of

00:45:51.820 populism

00:45:52.340 because

00:45:52.600 they

00:45:52.780 keep

00:45:53.020 on

00:45:53.200 saying

00:45:53.440 things

00:45:53.740 which

00:45:53.920 are

00:45:54.060 obviously

00:45:54.460 not

00:45:54.680 true

00:45:55.000 and

00:45:56.500 I

00:45:58.560 was

00:45:58.740 going

00:45:59.260 to

00:45:59.360 say

00:45:59.520 that

00:45:59.740 that's

00:46:00.160 absolutely

00:46:00.580 right

00:46:00.980 we've

00:46:02.160 seen

00:46:02.400 that

00:46:02.640 right

00:46:03.380 the

00:46:03.540 way

00:46:03.800 through

00:46:04.260 since

00:46:06.600 the

00:46:06.780 Iraq

00:46:07.160 war

00:46:07.500 really

00:46:07.960 Constantine

00:46:08.640 wrote a

00:46:09.040 brilliant

00:46:09.320 thread

00:46:09.620 on it

00:46:09.900 which

00:46:10.080 went

00:46:10.320 viral

00:46:11.100 on

00:46:11.380 Twitter

00:46:11.700 because

00:46:12.240 we

00:46:13.780 don't

00:46:14.160 have

00:46:14.460 faith

00:46:14.920 in

00:46:15.380 our

00:46:15.580 leaders

00:46:15.960 anymore

00:46:16.600 and

00:46:16.860 when

00:46:17.000 you

00:46:17.180 look

00:46:17.440 at

00:46:17.600 something

00:46:17.880 like

00:46:18.160 net

00:46:18.380 zero

00:46:18.680 which

00:46:19.000 none

00:46:19.380 of

00:46:19.540 us

00:46:19.680 voted

00:46:20.140 for

00:46:20.440 none

00:46:20.800 of

00:46:20.940 us

00:46:21.140 only

00:46:22.180 a

00:46:22.400 small

00:46:22.620 fraction

00:46:23.060 of

00:46:23.280 people

00:46:23.580 wanted

00:46:23.980 your

00:46:24.120 girlfriend

00:46:24.500 did

00:46:24.800 yeah

00:46:25.180 exactly

00:46:25.800 yeah

00:46:27.140 only a

00:46:28.540 small

00:46:28.740 fraction

00:46:29.180 of us

00:46:29.520 wanted

00:46:29.860 and

00:46:30.200 the

00:46:30.360 fact

00:46:30.980 have

00:46:31.160 such

00:46:31.420 horrendous

00:46:32.000 consequences

00:46:32.780 means

00:46:34.440 that

00:46:34.660 what is

00:46:35.180 the

00:46:35.340 point

00:46:35.540 in

00:46:35.680 democracy

00:46:36.200 really

00:46:37.080 when it

00:46:37.820 comes

00:46:38.040 down

00:46:38.280 to it

00:46:38.660 all right

00:46:39.360 well look

00:46:39.740 before you

00:46:41.020 get into

00:46:41.460 that

00:46:41.660 let's

00:46:42.180 talk about

00:46:43.140 the positive

00:46:43.640 side of

00:46:44.100 this

00:46:44.200 he wants

00:46:45.480 to drag

00:46:45.960 us down

00:46:46.540 into the

00:46:47.120 gutter

00:46:47.580 and into

00:46:48.100 the

00:46:48.340 pessimistic

00:46:49.020 stuff

00:46:49.400 but you

00:46:50.080 actually

00:46:50.380 have a

00:46:50.680 very

00:46:50.860 positive

00:46:51.260 message

00:46:51.620 and look

00:46:51.900 I think

00:46:52.500 Francis

00:46:52.860 and I

00:46:53.160 both

00:46:53.380 agree

00:46:53.640 with

00:46:53.840 everything

00:46:54.160 you've

00:46:54.440 said

00:46:54.640 about

00:46:55.060 the

00:46:56.480 impact

00:46:57.200 on

00:46:57.460 democracy

00:46:57.960 of

00:46:58.280 hypocritical

00:46:58.940 politicians

00:46:59.540 the

00:47:00.520 Chinese

00:47:00.940 virus

00:47:01.360 giving us

00:47:01.840 a

00:47:01.980 Chinese

00:47:02.220 society

00:47:02.680 I hear

00:47:03.400 all that

00:47:03.780 but if

00:47:04.640 you don't

00:47:04.840 mind

00:47:05.040 Francis

00:47:05.340 let's

00:47:05.820 do a bit

00:47:06.160 of the

00:47:06.600 more

00:47:06.740 positive

00:47:07.080 stuff

00:47:07.360 because

00:47:07.620 you

00:47:07.840 actually

00:47:08.120 have

00:47:08.400 a

00:47:08.940 great

00:47:09.340 and

00:47:09.720 very

00:47:10.060 inspiring

00:47:10.740 message

00:47:11.180 I think

00:47:11.700 which is

00:47:12.700 that we

00:47:13.300 can use

00:47:13.780 the power

00:47:14.280 of technology

00:47:15.060 we can

00:47:15.500 use the

00:47:15.920 power

00:47:16.240 of human

00:47:16.760 minds

00:47:17.340 the

00:47:18.100 human

00:47:18.760 ingenuity

00:47:19.480 that is

00:47:20.180 contained

00:47:20.660 within

00:47:20.980 human

00:47:21.640 beings

00:47:22.060 to

00:47:22.780 triumph

00:47:23.380 over

00:47:23.680 these

00:47:23.920 problems

00:47:24.280 and to

00:47:24.700 overcome

00:47:25.180 many

00:47:25.940 of these

00:47:26.280 issues

00:47:26.600 and you

00:47:27.220 mentioned

00:47:27.520 earlier

00:47:27.900 that we

00:47:28.220 could

00:47:28.360 talk

00:47:28.560 about

00:47:28.760 the

00:47:28.960 data

00:47:29.360 around

00:47:29.800 that

00:47:30.100 and I'd

00:47:30.440 be

00:47:30.520 really

00:47:30.840 keen

00:47:31.220 that we

00:47:31.840 get

00:47:32.080 some

00:47:32.320 of that

00:47:32.680 in

00:47:32.840 so

00:47:33.000 Marion

00:47:33.240 talk

00:47:33.520 to us

00:47:33.820 about

00:47:34.200 why

00:47:34.860 you

00:47:35.300 are

00:47:35.580 hopeful

00:47:36.060 and

00:47:36.300 optimistic

00:47:36.700 for the

00:47:37.080 future

00:47:37.380 what

00:47:37.740 you

00:47:37.960 see

00:47:38.260 as

00:47:38.560 the

00:47:38.740 opportunities

00:47:39.320 for

00:47:40.000 human

00:47:40.280 beings

00:47:40.700 to

00:47:41.080 transform

00:47:41.800 the

00:47:42.120 world

00:47:42.420 and

00:47:43.160 to

00:47:44.000 continue

00:47:44.440 to

00:47:44.720 expand

00:47:45.140 our

00:47:47.340 I'm

00:47:47.840 rationally

00:47:48.440 optimistic

00:47:48.840 about

00:47:49.120 the

00:47:49.300 future

00:47:49.620 just

00:47:50.000 to

00:47:50.680 clarify

00:47:51.520 that

00:47:51.960 so

00:47:52.260 long

00:47:52.640 as

00:47:52.980 we

00:47:53.140 don't

00:47:53.360 have

00:47:53.560 a

00:47:53.680 massive

00:47:53.980 war

00:47:54.460 caused

00:47:54.900 by

00:47:55.100 politicians

00:47:55.620 so

00:47:55.980 long

00:47:56.260 as

00:47:56.460 we

00:47:56.580 are

00:47:56.720 able

00:47:57.080 to

00:47:57.340 innovate

00:47:57.860 without

00:47:59.220 the

00:47:59.480 precautionary

00:48:00.040 principle

00:48:00.520 so

00:48:01.200 long

00:48:01.400 as

00:48:01.540 we

00:48:01.680 are

00:48:01.860 able

00:48:02.160 to

00:48:02.400 freely

00:48:02.760 speak

00:48:03.780 and

00:48:04.060 publish

00:48:04.400 and

00:48:04.620 research

00:48:05.200 for

00:48:05.720 which

00:48:06.000 you

00:48:06.180 need

00:48:06.360 of

00:48:06.540 course

00:48:06.780 freedom

00:48:07.200 of

00:48:07.440 speech

00:48:07.780 and

00:48:08.220 so

00:48:08.400 long

00:48:08.640 as

00:48:08.800 we

00:48:08.920 have

00:48:09.060 the

00:48:09.180 free

00:48:09.360 markets

00:48:09.820 which

00:48:10.040 can

00:48:10.220 tell

00:48:10.420 us

00:48:10.600 which

00:48:10.820 inventions

00:48:11.320 and

00:48:11.600 innovations

00:48:12.080 are

00:48:12.740 valuable

00:48:13.740 and

00:48:14.200 which

00:48:14.440 inventions

00:48:14.920 and

00:48:15.220 innovations

00:48:15.640 are

00:48:16.120 not

00:48:16.420 valuable

00:48:16.880 but

00:48:17.820 with

00:48:18.320 that

00:48:18.560 being

00:48:18.780 said

00:48:19.180 so

00:48:19.520 in

00:48:19.780 this

00:48:19.960 book

00:48:20.300 we

00:48:21.240 have

00:48:21.840 looked

00:48:22.060 at

00:48:22.220 18

00:48:22.660 different

00:48:23.040 data

00:48:23.360 sets

00:48:23.760 with

00:48:24.060 some

00:48:24.320 of

00:48:24.500 our

00:48:24.840 data

00:48:25.140 sets

00:48:25.340 going

00:48:25.500 back

00:48:25.680 to

00:48:25.820 1850

00:48:26.480 and

00:48:27.480 we

00:48:27.620 looked

00:48:27.800 at

00:48:27.940 hundreds

00:48:28.220 of

00:48:28.440 commodities

00:48:29.000 goods

00:48:30.920 finished

00:48:31.380 goods

00:48:31.840 services

00:48:33.120 food

00:48:34.060 fuel

00:48:34.680 etc

00:48:35.180 and

00:48:35.460 what

00:48:35.640 we

00:48:35.800 found

00:48:36.240 is

00:48:36.600 that

00:48:36.800 for

00:48:37.020 every

00:48:37.320 1%

00:48:38.040 increase

00:48:38.800 in

00:48:39.060 population

00:48:39.620 we

00:48:40.400 had

00:48:40.540 1%

00:48:41.220 decrease

00:48:41.600 in

00:48:42.080 the

00:48:42.220 price

00:48:42.600 of

00:48:43.160 all

00:48:43.780 of

00:48:43.900 these

00:48:44.200 goods

00:48:44.980 services

00:48:45.500 and

00:48:46.020 commodities

00:48:46.960 and

00:48:48.740 that

00:48:49.260 tells

00:48:49.780 us

00:48:50.140 that

00:48:50.560 human

00:48:52.380 beings

00:48:52.740 on

00:48:53.040 average

00:48:53.560 are

00:48:53.980 more

00:48:54.460 producers

00:48:55.040 than

00:48:55.320 they

00:48:55.460 are

00:48:55.600 consumers

00:48:56.100 that

00:48:56.420 tells

00:48:56.760 us

00:48:57.000 that

00:48:57.200 we

00:48:57.400 are

00:48:57.560 able

00:48:57.820 to

00:48:58.320 really

00:48:58.960 produce

00:48:59.440 more

00:48:59.720 wealth

00:49:00.060 than

00:49:00.220 we

00:49:00.380 consume

00:49:00.820 right

00:49:01.100 otherwise

00:49:02.860 you

00:49:03.120 would

00:49:03.240 see

00:49:03.400 the

00:49:03.560 opposite

00:49:03.880 with

00:49:04.160 every

00:49:04.420 1%

00:49:04.840 increase

00:49:05.220 in

00:49:05.360 population

00:49:05.780 you

00:49:06.000 would

00:49:06.180 see

00:49:06.360 an

00:49:06.760 increase

00:49:08.400 in

00:49:08.640 prices

00:49:08.880 and

00:49:09.040 greater

00:49:09.300 scarcity

00:49:09.760 but

00:49:10.460 once

00:49:11.060 again

00:49:11.400 what we

00:49:11.760 find

00:49:12.020 is the

00:49:12.280 exact

00:49:12.500 opposite

00:49:12.880 prices

00:49:13.280 go down

00:49:13.840 the more

00:49:14.200 people

00:49:14.500 you

00:49:14.640 have

00:49:14.920 I'm

00:49:16.320 going to

00:49:16.640 give

00:49:16.880 you

00:49:17.300 just

00:49:18.800 a few

00:49:19.420 things

00:49:19.680 that we

00:49:19.900 found

00:49:20.160 I'm

00:49:20.540 going to

00:49:21.140 the

00:49:22.060 longest

00:49:23.200 data set

00:49:23.800 that we

00:49:24.120 have

00:49:24.380 goes back

00:49:24.920 to

00:49:25.140 1850

00:49:25.880 and is

00:49:26.260 for

00:49:26.600 American

00:49:27.280 blue

00:49:29.180 collar

00:49:29.600 workers

00:49:30.620 this is

00:49:31.220 manufacturing

00:49:31.800 workers

00:49:32.420 okay

00:49:32.960 so

00:49:33.700 so

00:49:33.720 what we

00:49:34.420 found

00:49:34.880 so what

00:49:36.360 we found

00:49:37.800 for example

00:49:38.360 fell in

00:49:39.040 price by

00:49:39.540 98%

00:49:40.440 which means

00:49:41.840 that the

00:49:42.220 same amount

00:49:42.860 of time

00:49:43.380 which got

00:49:44.020 you

00:49:44.400 one pound

00:49:46.300 of pork

00:49:46.780 in

00:49:47.180 1850

00:49:48.800 you now

00:49:49.900 get

00:49:50.460 63 pounds

00:49:52.060 of pork

00:49:52.560 for the

00:49:53.100 same amount

00:49:53.600 of work

00:49:54.100 okay

00:49:54.700 for the

00:49:55.940 same amount

00:49:56.320 of work

00:49:56.720 that bought

00:49:57.200 you a pound

00:49:58.020 of rice

00:49:58.560 you now get

00:49:59.220 41 pounds

00:50:00.140 of rice

00:50:00.680 some amount

00:50:01.580 of work

00:50:02.040 that got

00:50:02.520 you say

00:50:03.660 a pound

00:50:04.140 of wheat

00:50:04.600 now you

00:50:05.000 get 31

00:50:05.620 pounds

00:50:06.040 of wheat

00:50:06.560 we go

00:50:08.580 with corn

00:50:09.540 rye

00:50:10.480 but we also

00:50:11.000 look at

00:50:11.360 minerals

00:50:11.720 like nickel

00:50:12.560 or phosphate

00:50:13.560 or barley

00:50:15.220 coffee

00:50:15.640 copper

00:50:16.020 and everywhere

00:50:17.280 we find

00:50:18.000 that prices

00:50:19.900 have been

00:50:20.200 dropping to

00:50:20.640 such extent

00:50:21.320 that basically

00:50:22.540 whatever

00:50:23.400 you could

00:50:24.360 get for

00:50:24.800 an hour

00:50:25.180 of work

00:50:25.640 in

00:50:25.980 1850

00:50:28.440 you can

00:50:28.760 now get

00:50:29.940 a multiple

00:50:30.460 even though

00:50:31.500 the number

00:50:32.380 of people

00:50:32.800 in the world

00:50:33.280 has risen

00:50:33.800 from 1

00:50:34.460 billion people

00:50:35.140 in 1800

00:50:35.800 to 8

00:50:36.640 billion people

00:50:37.260 today

00:50:37.680 and I should

00:50:38.480 mention

00:50:38.840 that when

00:50:39.220 we looked

00:50:39.600 at prices

00:50:40.100 what we

00:50:40.520 did

00:50:40.680 we looked

00:50:41.020 at prices

00:50:41.580 of things

00:50:42.100 relative

00:50:42.620 to wages

00:50:43.120 because of

00:50:43.660 course

00:50:43.800 wages

00:50:44.160 increase

00:50:44.700 over time

00:50:45.280 as well

00:50:45.680 as humanity

00:50:46.620 becomes

00:50:47.060 more productive

00:50:47.780 and if you

00:50:48.880 let me

00:50:49.380 I'm also

00:50:49.940 going to

00:50:50.280 give you

00:50:50.540 a global

00:50:50.960 perspective

00:50:51.480 we did

00:50:52.020 it for

00:50:52.260 the United

00:50:52.620 Kingdom

00:50:52.920 as well

00:50:53.420 but we

00:50:53.780 did a

00:50:54.060 global

00:50:54.340 perspective

00:50:54.900 where we

00:50:56.000 looked at

00:50:56.720 what happened

00:50:58.000 to prices

00:50:59.600 of commodities

00:51:00.280 during the

00:51:01.460 era of

00:51:01.880 globalization

00:51:02.340 which was

00:51:03.080 to say

00:51:03.460 after

00:51:03.960 1980

00:51:04.740 and that's

00:51:05.920 just a period

00:51:06.500 of 40 years

00:51:07.400 and what we

00:51:08.660 found for example

00:51:09.500 that coffee

00:51:10.080 fell in price

00:51:10.720 by 90%

00:51:11.560 so now you

00:51:12.200 get

00:51:12.580 sorry

00:51:13.980 this is where

00:51:15.180 the age is

00:51:15.740 coming in

00:51:16.180 and I have

00:51:16.580 to take my

00:51:17.820 glasses

00:51:18.180 not everything

00:51:18.980 improves over

00:51:19.660 time my friend

00:51:20.300 no I certainly

00:51:21.340 don't

00:51:21.920 but

00:51:22.200 coffee 85%

00:51:24.380 cheaper

00:51:24.880 you can now

00:51:25.560 get 7%

00:51:26.120 for the price

00:51:26.620 of one

00:51:27.180 pork 84%

00:51:28.480 cheaper

00:51:28.840 you get 7%

00:51:29.420 for the price

00:51:29.940 of one

00:51:30.380 salmon 80%

00:51:31.700 cheaper

00:51:32.020 you can get

00:51:32.420 5% for the

00:51:33.040 price of one

00:51:33.640 and this is

00:51:35.000 just in the

00:51:35.500 scope of the

00:51:36.100 last 40 years

00:51:37.340 and people

00:51:37.920 might want to

00:51:38.500 ask you know

00:51:39.260 we often get

00:51:40.900 you know part

00:51:42.200 of the doom

00:51:42.680 and gloom

00:51:43.060 is that people

00:51:43.600 feel that things

00:51:44.300 are not improving

00:51:45.040 at a faster

00:51:45.720 pace

00:51:46.160 but actually

00:51:47.200 what we found

00:51:48.040 is that in

00:51:48.920 the last 40

00:51:49.680 years living

00:51:50.260 standards have

00:51:50.840 improved by

00:51:52.120 about

00:51:52.660 250%

00:51:54.980 as a global

00:51:56.480 average

00:51:56.840 and what people

00:51:58.060 have to keep

00:51:58.560 in mind

00:51:59.040 when they are

00:51:59.580 thinking

00:51:59.920 is this fast

00:52:00.740 enough or not

00:52:01.560 is that for

00:52:02.900 tens of thousands

00:52:04.160 of years

00:52:04.700 human

00:52:05.320 standards of

00:52:06.340 living haven't

00:52:06.740 changed at all

00:52:07.340 in other words

00:52:08.500 if you were

00:52:10.120 living to the

00:52:10.660 age of 25

00:52:11.260 or 30

00:52:11.860 in ancient

00:52:13.400 Egypt

00:52:13.720 you were living

00:52:14.480 to the age

00:52:14.960 of 25

00:52:15.660 or 30

00:52:16.200 in ancient

00:52:16.620 Rome

00:52:16.940 and then

00:52:17.680 in Norman

00:52:18.600 England

00:52:19.020 right

00:52:19.600 as many

00:52:21.340 babies

00:52:21.840 died

00:52:22.520 to the

00:52:23.640 ancient

00:52:24.220 Egyptians

00:52:24.940 as they

00:52:25.640 did

00:52:25.920 in Britain

00:52:27.400 in year

00:52:28.680 1000

00:52:29.180 maybe with

00:52:29.860 little

00:52:30.180 differences

00:52:32.520 but generally

00:52:34.020 living standards

00:52:34.760 just remain

00:52:35.320 the same

00:52:35.840 the same

00:52:36.240 amount of

00:52:36.620 food

00:52:36.860 that you

00:52:37.260 consumed

00:52:37.800 you were

00:52:39.100 able to

00:52:39.500 consume

00:52:39.900 living on

00:52:40.480 the age

00:52:40.780 of starvation

00:52:41.420 your parents

00:52:42.320 your grandparents

00:52:43.000 their grandparents

00:52:43.740 going back

00:52:44.180 thousands of

00:52:44.780 years

00:52:45.200 you know

00:52:46.040 would be

00:52:46.420 able to

00:52:46.720 do

00:52:46.820 so the

00:52:47.160 fact that

00:52:47.620 in the

00:52:47.900 last 40

00:52:48.420 years alone

00:52:49.000 we were

00:52:50.100 able to

00:52:50.480 increase

00:52:50.860 our living

00:52:51.560 standards

00:52:51.980 globally

00:52:52.500 by 250

00:52:53.500 percent

00:52:54.040 that in

00:52:54.560 itself

00:52:54.920 should

00:52:55.220 tell you

00:52:55.720 that we

00:52:56.020 are doing

00:52:56.260 something

00:52:56.580 right

00:52:56.920 yeah

00:52:58.180 and I

00:52:59.300 think it's

00:52:59.700 very easy

00:53:00.300 to ignore

00:53:00.940 these

00:53:01.340 you know

00:53:01.760 statistics

00:53:02.380 because

00:53:03.220 when you

00:53:04.820 see something

00:53:05.720 like the

00:53:06.420 energy bills

00:53:07.100 you forget

00:53:07.700 in many

00:53:08.380 ways

00:53:08.780 how good

00:53:09.260 we have

00:53:09.740 it

00:53:09.900 and actually

00:53:10.780 how rapid

00:53:11.780 technological

00:53:12.540 progress

00:53:13.240 has been

00:53:13.800 just in

00:53:14.780 just in

00:53:15.280 the last

00:53:15.640 10 years

00:53:16.160 if you think

00:53:16.740 how much

00:53:17.580 everything has

00:53:18.160 changed

00:53:18.620 with the

00:53:19.000 internet

00:53:19.360 and how

00:53:20.300 much

00:53:20.620 the

00:53:20.800 internet

00:53:21.060 has been

00:53:21.460 able to

00:53:21.920 change

00:53:22.260 our lives

00:53:22.720 and improve

00:53:23.340 lives

00:53:23.840 and like for

00:53:25.020 instance this

00:53:25.620 wouldn't happen

00:53:26.360 so what

00:53:28.200 tell us something

00:53:29.200 positive to do

00:53:29.980 with technology

00:53:30.680 as well

00:53:31.060 how can

00:53:31.580 technology

00:53:32.320 and technological

00:53:33.320 advances

00:53:34.060 improve our

00:53:35.160 lives in the

00:53:35.780 coming years

00:53:36.460 well first

00:53:37.900 of all let me

00:53:38.320 acknowledge that

00:53:39.240 the west is

00:53:39.980 going through

00:53:40.680 and the whole

00:53:41.600 world actually

00:53:42.380 is going through

00:53:43.300 a very difficult

00:53:43.800 period

00:53:44.240 when the

00:53:46.460 last two

00:53:47.080 years

00:53:47.420 the last

00:53:47.780 three

00:53:48.000 I'm trying

00:53:48.400 to be

00:53:48.640 positive

00:53:49.100 Marian

00:53:49.540 yeah it

00:53:50.120 doesn't come

00:53:50.640 naturally

00:53:51.080 the last

00:53:53.660 two years

00:53:53.960 have been

00:53:54.220 difficult

00:53:54.580 and of

00:53:55.480 course that

00:53:55.940 the sort

00:53:56.740 of slope

00:53:57.300 of human

00:53:57.740 progress

00:53:58.080 is not a

00:53:58.620 smooth line

00:53:59.380 upwards

00:53:59.800 it's a

00:54:00.360 jagged line

00:54:01.020 you know

00:54:01.360 often we

00:54:01.880 take two

00:54:02.360 steps forwards

00:54:02.880 and one

00:54:03.220 step back

00:54:03.740 I believe

00:54:05.520 that both

00:54:06.660 our reaction

00:54:07.940 to COVID

00:54:08.580 but also

00:54:09.180 our economic

00:54:09.820 policies

00:54:10.480 have been

00:54:11.120 you know

00:54:12.060 not everything

00:54:14.300 we have done

00:54:14.820 was right

00:54:15.280 in fact I

00:54:15.760 think most of

00:54:16.300 it was done

00:54:16.740 was done

00:54:17.320 poorly

00:54:17.600 but

00:54:18.660 but I

00:54:20.820 still think

00:54:21.540 that

00:54:22.680 very few

00:54:24.920 Britons

00:54:25.620 would

00:54:26.960 would deny

00:54:28.160 that life

00:54:28.780 in 2022

00:54:29.660 is better

00:54:30.220 than what

00:54:30.560 it was

00:54:30.820 in 1979

00:54:31.520 or 1980

00:54:32.680 you know

00:54:34.140 be it

00:54:34.620 be it a

00:54:35.040 trip to a

00:54:35.600 dentist

00:54:35.880 or a trip

00:54:36.980 to a

00:54:37.800 to a doctor

00:54:39.120 to have a

00:54:39.860 quadruple

00:54:40.760 you know

00:54:41.700 bypass surgery

00:54:42.560 or cars

00:54:43.800 or food

00:54:44.560 or or

00:54:45.340 even the

00:54:46.100 cleanliness

00:54:46.500 of the

00:54:46.820 environment

00:54:47.220 I mean

00:54:48.400 Britain is

00:54:49.480 a much

00:54:49.960 much cleaner

00:54:50.540 country

00:54:50.940 than it

00:54:51.280 was you

00:54:51.920 know 40

00:54:52.300 years ago

00:54:52.740 so that

00:54:53.860 being said

00:54:54.360 where would

00:54:54.720 I take

00:54:55.080 technology

00:54:55.480 I mean

00:54:55.740 I think

00:54:56.100 that there

00:54:56.460 are tremendous

00:54:57.160 opportunities

00:54:58.000 for technological

00:54:58.880 improvement

00:55:00.320 of human

00:55:00.780 society

00:55:01.220 in the

00:55:01.520 future

00:55:01.920 biotech

00:55:03.480 creation

00:55:04.100 of bespoke

00:55:05.380 medical

00:55:07.560 treatments

00:55:08.200 for every

00:55:09.600 individual

00:55:10.140 you know

00:55:11.080 when

00:55:11.440 when the

00:55:11.940 genome

00:55:12.520 was decoded

00:55:13.300 it cost

00:55:13.760 a billion

00:55:14.100 dollars

00:55:14.580 now you

00:55:15.760 can get

00:55:16.080 your genome

00:55:16.520 decoded

00:55:17.000 for a hundred

00:55:17.460 dollars

00:55:17.900 that obviously

00:55:19.240 makes it easier

00:55:20.020 to identify

00:55:20.740 your risks

00:55:22.120 to give you

00:55:22.620 a risk

00:55:22.920 profile

00:55:23.480 what you

00:55:24.020 should be

00:55:24.300 doing with

00:55:24.680 your life

00:55:25.060 how much

00:55:25.420 you should

00:55:25.680 be drinking

00:55:26.160 should you

00:55:26.700 be smoking

00:55:27.240 should you

00:55:28.140 be eating

00:55:28.660 certain types

00:55:29.340 of foods

00:55:29.940 that so that

00:55:30.440 you can

00:55:30.680 optimize your

00:55:31.380 health in

00:55:31.720 the future

00:55:32.140 so I

00:55:33.680 think

00:55:34.000 you know

00:55:34.620 that combined

00:55:36.140 with

00:55:36.620 mRNA

00:55:38.000 and the way

00:55:38.900 that mRNA

00:55:39.420 can be used

00:55:40.540 not only

00:55:40.980 against COVID

00:55:41.640 but they can

00:55:42.140 be used

00:55:42.440 against cancer

00:55:43.100 against all

00:55:43.780 sorts of

00:55:44.040 other things

00:55:44.520 artificial

00:55:45.760 intelligence

00:55:46.520 and human

00:55:46.960 and supercomputing

00:55:48.460 can be

00:55:49.240 applied in

00:55:49.960 order to

00:55:51.160 really develop

00:55:53.420 new drugs

00:55:54.500 discover the

00:55:56.860 formation of

00:55:58.920 proteins

00:55:59.680 and all

00:56:00.280 other things

00:56:00.820 and all sorts

00:56:01.360 of other things

00:56:01.800 that we need

00:56:02.320 in order to

00:56:02.820 produce

00:56:03.200 much better

00:56:04.900 drugs

00:56:05.480 in order

00:56:06.840 to keep

00:56:07.540 us alive

00:56:08.240 and healthy

00:56:08.760 for a longer

00:56:09.280 period of

00:56:09.760 time

00:56:10.100 and obviously

00:56:10.900 longevity

00:56:11.400 and health

00:56:12.400 are the best

00:56:13.160 proxies

00:56:13.780 for high

00:56:14.660 standard of

00:56:15.140 living

00:56:15.380 you know

00:56:17.340 because

00:56:18.300 the longer

00:56:19.380 we live

00:56:19.840 and the

00:56:20.640 healthier

00:56:20.900 we are

00:56:21.340 that tells

00:56:21.760 us that

00:56:22.060 we are

00:56:22.320 doing all

00:56:22.800 sorts of

00:56:23.100 other things

00:56:23.620 in life

00:56:24.140 well

00:56:24.620 what are

00:56:25.640 the other

00:56:26.020 technological

00:56:27.420 I mean

00:56:28.080 I already

00:56:28.500 talked about

00:56:29.060 biotech

00:56:29.820 artificial

00:56:31.220 intelligence

00:56:31.920 if it

00:56:32.700 happens

00:56:33.180 it could

00:56:34.120 really boost

00:56:34.920 our productivity

00:56:35.620 so even

00:56:36.920 if we do

00:56:37.460 have the

00:56:38.220 world sort

00:56:38.800 of flatlining

00:56:39.540 in terms of

00:56:40.280 population

00:56:40.780 that doesn't

00:56:41.720 mean that we

00:56:42.300 wouldn't get

00:56:42.640 any inventions

00:56:43.380 because human

00:56:44.140 brain would

00:56:44.880 now cooperate

00:56:45.480 with AI

00:56:46.260 but we just

00:56:47.520 don't know

00:56:48.320 whether that's

00:56:50.440 going to happen

00:56:50.900 or when

00:56:51.500 but if we

00:56:53.300 can pull it

00:56:53.740 off then I

00:56:54.320 think that we

00:56:54.780 can just

00:56:55.160 dramatically

00:56:55.580 increase the

00:56:56.400 human brain's

00:56:57.140 computing power

00:56:57.940 other things

00:57:01.260 that we can

00:57:01.760 talk about

00:57:02.320 are maybe

00:57:03.480 breakthroughs

00:57:04.080 in energy

00:57:04.580 you know

00:57:05.080 energy goes

00:57:05.740 into everything

00:57:06.380 as Europeans

00:57:07.060 and Americans

00:57:07.700 are finding

00:57:08.220 out right

00:57:08.660 now

00:57:08.900 energy is

00:57:09.720 absolutely

00:57:10.760 fundamental

00:57:11.320 to powering

00:57:12.240 our civilization

00:57:12.920 not just

00:57:13.640 this zoom

00:57:14.180 call

00:57:14.620 but also

00:57:16.120 the cost

00:57:17.780 of your

00:57:18.060 avocados

00:57:18.680 or a loaf

00:57:19.580 of bread

00:57:20.000 everything is

00:57:20.640 based on

00:57:21.020 energy

00:57:21.420 what if we

00:57:22.000 could actually

00:57:22.700 spend some

00:57:23.820 serious money

00:57:24.440 behind fusion

00:57:25.780 energy

00:57:26.220 which is

00:57:27.440 very safe

00:57:28.100 and could

00:57:28.560 power our

00:57:29.160 civilization

00:57:29.780 for millennia

00:57:31.460 to come

00:57:31.960 and make

00:57:32.500 energy too

00:57:33.280 cheap to

00:57:33.860 measure

00:57:34.180 what if

00:57:35.340 energy became

00:57:35.860 free

00:57:36.140 I think that

00:57:37.360 would make

00:57:37.960 our living

00:57:38.560 standard jump

00:57:39.440 quickly by

00:57:40.840 order of

00:57:41.260 magnitude

00:57:41.660 and make

00:57:42.700 us much

00:57:43.380 more optimistic

00:57:43.960 we could

00:57:44.820 cut the price

00:57:45.480 of absolutely

00:57:45.980 everything we

00:57:46.540 do in society

00:57:47.260 by a significant

00:57:48.300 margin

00:57:48.780 Marit and

00:57:50.840 we've got to

00:57:51.520 wrap up in a

00:57:52.140 second but

00:57:52.680 before we

00:57:53.840 ask you our

00:57:54.300 last question

00:57:54.820 I wanted to

00:57:55.400 ask you

00:57:55.720 something else

00:57:56.280 because

00:57:56.740 temperamentally

00:57:58.620 I agree with

00:57:59.240 you and

00:57:59.840 the more I

00:58:00.380 look at the

00:58:00.800 facts of it

00:58:01.340 the more I

00:58:01.760 agree with

00:58:02.100 you and

00:58:02.380 probably because

00:58:03.700 I grew up

00:58:04.740 in the 90s

00:58:05.900 when we had

00:58:06.560 this brief

00:58:07.120 moment of

00:58:07.640 optimism

00:58:08.160 I am

00:58:10.080 someone who

00:58:10.680 is inclined

00:58:11.060 to believe

00:58:11.580 that technology

00:58:12.660 and scientific

00:58:14.060 progress is

00:58:15.360 how we are

00:58:16.400 going to deal

00:58:17.120 with many of

00:58:17.720 the difficult

00:58:18.200 problems that

00:58:19.280 we do face

00:58:19.980 however we've

00:58:21.440 also seen

00:58:22.080 as you and

00:58:23.160 Francis were

00:58:23.700 talking about

00:58:24.140 earlier that

00:58:24.740 when you get

00:58:26.080 rapid technological

00:58:27.300 change including

00:58:28.580 of the type that

00:58:29.340 we've seen in

00:58:29.960 the last decade

00:58:31.060 particularly it

00:58:33.160 comes with very

00:58:33.900 significant trade

00:58:34.780 offs and the

00:58:36.000 ability to

00:58:36.700 communicate with

00:58:37.620 everybody in the

00:58:38.540 world the

00:58:39.320 ability to

00:58:39.940 connect not

00:58:40.700 everybody but

00:58:41.280 most people in

00:58:42.040 the world through

00:58:42.740 the internet has

00:58:44.260 been incredible

00:58:45.060 and it's also

00:58:46.620 got to the

00:58:47.820 point where

00:58:48.580 you know countries

00:58:49.340 are having civil

00:58:50.020 wars because of

00:58:50.800 Facebook quote

00:58:51.680 unquote I mean

00:58:52.220 I'm simplifying

00:58:53.020 but you know

00:58:53.480 what I mean

00:58:53.880 we are very

00:58:54.800 divided in

00:58:55.520 western countries

00:58:56.180 and so on

00:58:56.640 so while

00:58:58.480 remaining

00:58:59.180 optimistic

00:58:59.800 how do we

00:59:01.120 manage some

00:59:01.860 of the

00:59:02.240 trade-offs

00:59:02.980 of these

00:59:03.820 technological

00:59:04.500 developments

00:59:05.260 because it

00:59:05.780 seems to me

00:59:06.440 you know the

00:59:07.100 area that

00:59:07.640 Francis and I

00:59:08.420 are in

00:59:08.740 you know

00:59:10.020 social

00:59:10.400 communication

00:59:11.180 cultural

00:59:12.380 programming

00:59:13.040 entertainment

00:59:13.580 and particularly

00:59:14.760 social media

00:59:15.660 that is an

00:59:17.040 area where

00:59:17.920 everyone knows

00:59:19.360 there's a big

00:59:19.760 problem and

00:59:20.720 no one quite

00:59:21.440 knows what to

00:59:22.040 do about it

00:59:22.800 any technology

00:59:25.220 developed by the

00:59:26.140 human brain

00:59:26.820 can be

00:59:28.200 can be used

00:59:30.100 for good and

00:59:30.580 evil

00:59:30.800 a baseball bat

00:59:32.540 can be used

00:59:33.320 to hit a

00:59:34.440 baseball and

00:59:35.280 it can be used

00:59:36.400 to bash you

00:59:37.340 to death

00:59:37.760 not to mention

00:59:39.420 guns and

00:59:41.160 anything else

00:59:42.760 knives

00:59:43.600 so

00:59:46.140 what you do

00:59:48.540 with your

00:59:48.840 technologies

00:59:49.220 also matter

00:59:50.000 I think

00:59:51.400 that

00:59:52.080 any new

00:59:56.440 technology

00:59:56.940 from

00:59:57.540 gramophones

00:59:58.260 to bicycles

00:59:59.040 was first

01:00:00.260 met with

01:00:01.280 a wall

01:00:02.320 of

01:00:02.860 negativism

01:00:04.020 in other

01:00:04.460 words

01:00:04.760 writing of

01:00:05.820 novels

01:00:06.260 was supposed

01:00:07.160 to lead

01:00:07.740 to mental

01:00:08.540 collapse

01:00:09.100 throughout

01:00:09.720 the western

01:00:10.280 world

01:00:10.720 you know

01:00:11.240 television

01:00:11.940 radio

01:00:12.720 all of

01:00:13.360 these

01:00:13.540 things

01:00:13.920 were

01:00:14.240 considered

01:00:14.680 to be

01:00:15.160 potentially

01:00:15.680 world

01:00:17.060 ending

01:00:17.460 events

01:00:18.020 but they

01:00:19.240 didn't

01:00:19.480 happen

01:00:19.840 we are

01:00:21.060 I think

01:00:21.840 that when it

01:00:22.640 comes to

01:00:22.960 social media

01:00:23.600 I don't

01:00:24.180 like them

01:00:24.620 I don't

01:00:25.840 partake

01:00:26.360 I left

01:00:26.980 Facebook

01:00:27.380 in 2012

01:00:28.320 when I

01:00:28.860 realized

01:00:29.320 that it

01:00:30.400 was making

01:00:30.800 me unhappy

01:00:31.460 that what

01:00:32.400 I was putting

01:00:33.060 up on

01:00:33.480 Facebook

01:00:33.840 was a curated

01:00:34.720 picture of

01:00:35.380 my life

01:00:35.860 and what

01:00:36.220 I was

01:00:36.500 consuming

01:00:37.000 was a curated

01:00:37.740 picture of

01:00:38.280 my life

01:00:38.660 so basically

01:00:39.420 I was posting

01:00:40.040 lies and

01:00:40.740 consuming lies

01:00:41.600 and once I

01:00:42.180 realized that

01:00:42.780 I left

01:00:43.160 Facebook

01:00:43.540 and that

01:00:44.600 was a

01:00:44.920 choice

01:00:45.340 a choice

01:00:46.440 which can

01:00:46.920 be made

01:00:47.320 independently

01:00:47.960 by any

01:00:48.920 number of

01:00:49.380 you

01:00:49.560 by all

01:00:50.780 8 billion

01:00:51.540 people

01:00:51.960 so I

01:00:52.280 think that

01:00:52.580 what we

01:00:52.900 are going

01:00:53.400 through

01:00:53.660 right now

01:00:54.300 is a

01:00:55.220 period of

01:00:55.780 adjustment

01:00:56.360 to a

01:00:56.940 new

01:00:57.080 technology

01:00:57.540 but that

01:00:57.920 period

01:00:58.300 of

01:00:58.600 adjustment

01:00:59.000 will

01:00:59.980 resolve

01:01:01.320 itself

01:01:01.880 you know

01:01:02.220 it took

01:01:02.600 us 50

01:01:03.100 years to

01:01:03.580 figure out

01:01:04.120 that drinking

01:01:05.020 and driving

01:01:05.660 was not a

01:01:06.260 good idea

01:01:06.780 and right

01:01:07.620 now it's

01:01:08.260 sort of

01:01:08.500 been

01:01:08.680 internalized

01:01:09.460 into us

01:01:10.100 that cars

01:01:11.760 are much

01:01:12.340 better operated

01:01:13.160 when you

01:01:13.540 are sober

01:01:14.060 right

01:01:14.500 but it

01:01:14.820 took time

01:01:15.540 to square

01:01:17.400 the human

01:01:18.920 brain

01:01:19.420 with this

01:01:20.800 new technology

01:01:21.500 and I think

01:01:21.960 that will

01:01:22.280 probably happen

01:01:22.900 with social

01:01:23.400 media as well

01:01:23.980 or at least

01:01:24.400 I hope

01:01:24.800 that will

01:01:25.140 happen with

01:01:25.560 social media

01:01:26.120 is that

01:01:26.660 people are

01:01:27.000 simply going

01:01:27.340 to leave

01:01:27.740 realize that

01:01:29.000 much of it

01:01:29.800 is simply

01:01:30.140 unreal

01:01:30.660 that is

01:01:31.340 making them

01:01:31.780 unhappy

01:01:32.260 and they

01:01:32.600 could be

01:01:32.900 spending

01:01:33.180 their time

01:01:33.840 doing better

01:01:35.300 things than

01:01:36.220 being on

01:01:37.460 social media

01:01:38.040 so I

01:01:41.100 think

01:01:41.280 these are

01:01:43.000 early days

01:01:43.620 it's a new

01:01:44.080 technology

01:01:44.480 but I think

01:01:45.020 we'll probably

01:01:45.580 figure it out

01:01:46.200 in the way

01:01:46.580 that we have

01:01:47.000 figured it out

01:01:47.640 with novels

01:01:48.500 and bicycles

01:01:49.700 and radio

01:01:50.640 and television

01:01:51.320 Marian it's

01:01:53.880 been an

01:01:54.380 absolute pleasure

01:01:55.180 thank you so

01:01:56.040 much for coming

01:01:56.720 on

01:01:57.020 we're going

01:01:58.040 to finish

01:01:58.440 with our

01:01:59.180 final question

01:01:59.880 which is

01:02:00.220 always the

01:02:00.640 same

01:02:00.900 it's

01:02:01.240 what's the

01:02:01.560 one thing

01:02:02.020 we're not

01:02:02.680 talking about

01:02:03.340 as a society

01:02:04.420 that we really

01:02:05.260 should be

01:02:08.040 well I'm

01:02:10.040 basically a

01:02:11.280 follower of

01:02:11.820 the enlightenment

01:02:12.280 I believe

01:02:13.380 that

01:02:13.660 enlightenment

01:02:14.500 I aspire

01:02:16.480 to the

01:02:16.920 ideals of

01:02:17.420 the enlightenment

01:02:17.880 and one of

01:02:18.400 the main

01:02:18.880 features of

01:02:19.380 the enlightenment

01:02:19.820 was freedom

01:02:20.360 of speech

01:02:20.840 I don't

01:02:21.240 think that

01:02:21.580 we are

01:02:21.880 putting

01:02:22.140 enough

01:02:22.560 emphasis

01:02:23.000 on the

01:02:24.040 way that

01:02:24.360 freedom of

01:02:24.760 speech

01:02:25.020 is being

01:02:25.360 destroyed

01:02:25.860 by our

01:02:26.640 governments

01:02:27.180 by the

01:02:27.900 media

01:02:28.300 by cancel

01:02:29.320 culture

01:02:29.780 freedom of

01:02:30.860 speech

01:02:31.140 is not

01:02:31.560 only necessary

01:02:32.340 in order

01:02:32.980 to produce

01:02:34.380 new inventions

01:02:35.180 and innovations

01:02:35.880 but also

01:02:36.540 to produce

01:02:37.160 new ideas

01:02:38.120 in this

01:02:39.900 country

01:02:40.340 we need

01:02:41.500 a lot

01:02:41.740 of reforms

01:02:42.340 because the

01:02:42.860 country is

01:02:43.200 not functioning

01:02:43.680 very well

01:02:44.300 and I

01:02:45.040 wouldn't like

01:02:45.660 ideas that I

01:02:47.260 propose to be

01:02:48.000 cancelled just

01:02:48.680 because they

01:02:49.180 seem too

01:02:49.920 outrageous

01:02:51.000 in the same

01:02:51.800 way in the

01:02:52.380 United Kingdom

01:02:52.960 you need to

01:02:53.480 undertake a lot

01:02:54.080 of reforms

01:02:54.700 and what if

01:02:55.580 somebody tells

01:02:56.180 you that your

01:02:56.840 proposal for

01:02:57.760 I don't know

01:02:59.020 NHS reform

01:03:00.200 is somehow

01:03:00.940 I don't know

01:03:02.980 whatever

01:03:05.020 they will cancel

01:03:05.760 you for that

01:03:06.240 so we need

01:03:07.400 freedom of

01:03:07.860 speech

01:03:08.060 we need to

01:03:08.460 preserve

01:03:08.720 freedom of

01:03:09.180 speech

01:03:09.480 it's

01:03:09.780 absolutely

01:03:10.120 fundamental

01:03:10.720 we should

01:03:11.600 be talking

01:03:11.960 about it

01:03:12.360 more

01:03:12.680 we should

01:03:13.220 be talking

01:03:13.600 more about

01:03:14.320 people getting

01:03:14.880 cancelled

01:03:15.320 for joking

01:03:16.220 for expressing

01:03:18.040 wrong ideas

01:03:19.140 and also

01:03:19.680 for having

01:03:20.400 peculiar forms

01:03:22.580 of behaviour

01:03:23.360 and that's

01:03:24.280 important

01:03:24.740 because as

01:03:25.240 we discuss

01:03:25.860 in our

01:03:26.240 book

01:03:26.520 a lot

01:03:27.520 of people

01:03:27.900 on whom

01:03:28.360 we rely

01:03:29.160 for some

01:03:30.420 of the most

01:03:30.880 important

01:03:31.420 innovations

01:03:32.400 and inventions

01:03:33.260 in the world

01:03:33.880 are also

01:03:34.620 very peculiar

01:03:35.500 people

01:03:36.000 right

01:03:36.820 look at

01:03:38.920 somebody like

01:03:39.420 Steve Jobs

01:03:40.140 incredibly

01:03:40.680 difficult

01:03:41.140 and apparently

01:03:41.760 quite an

01:03:42.180 unpleasant

01:03:42.480 person to

01:03:43.040 be about

01:03:43.540 but he's

01:03:44.140 changed the

01:03:44.520 world

01:03:44.800 look at

01:03:46.340 the personal

01:03:46.800 peccadillos

01:03:47.360 of somebody

01:03:48.480 like

01:03:48.960 Bill Gates

01:03:52.320 again

01:03:53.660 an imperfect

01:03:54.760 man who

01:03:55.440 has changed

01:03:55.960 the world

01:03:56.380 look at

01:03:57.080 somebody like

01:03:57.720 the co-discoverer

01:03:58.820 of DNA

01:04:00.660 Jim Watson

01:04:01.780 he likes to

01:04:02.960 provoke people

01:04:03.700 he likes to

01:04:04.380 constantly

01:04:04.800 needle them

01:04:05.460 with politically

01:04:06.100 incorrect

01:04:06.600 opinions

01:04:07.200 but what if

01:04:07.880 we shut

01:04:08.220 him down

01:04:08.640 just because

01:04:09.120 he was

01:04:09.400 politically

01:04:09.780 incorrect

01:04:10.360 would we

01:04:11.060 have had

01:04:11.480 DNA

01:04:11.880 and so

01:04:13.480 I think

01:04:14.340 that freedom

01:04:15.120 of speech

01:04:15.540 but also

01:04:16.080 I think

01:04:16.520 greater

01:04:16.860 tolerance

01:04:17.440 for eccentricity

01:04:18.540 for neurodivergent

01:04:20.480 individuals

01:04:21.060 who may be

01:04:21.700 saying the right

01:04:22.600 things and

01:04:23.100 have weird

01:04:23.660 forms of

01:04:25.120 behaviour

01:04:25.480 but we

01:04:26.300 need them

01:04:26.760 because

01:04:27.240 genius

01:04:27.760 usually

01:04:28.320 comes with

01:04:30.120 people on

01:04:31.020 the spectrum

01:04:31.480 a fantastic

01:04:34.180 answer

01:04:34.620 Maren

01:04:34.960 I really

01:04:35.540 recommend

01:04:36.460 everybody

01:04:36.960 get

01:04:37.240 Super

01:04:37.580 Abundance

01:04:38.120 tell

01:04:39.060 our fans

01:04:40.180 where they

01:04:40.960 can find

01:04:41.400 your work

01:04:41.780 online

01:04:42.180 thank you

01:04:43.320 very much

01:04:43.700 so the

01:04:44.260 book

01:04:44.520 is

01:04:45.360 Super

01:04:46.040 Abundance

01:04:46.560 we have

01:04:47.660 a website

01:04:48.160 www.superabundance.com

01:04:50.840 the other

01:04:52.940 website which

01:04:53.480 I run

01:04:53.860 is

01:04:54.260 humanprogress.org

01:04:55.560 and

01:04:56.280 if you

01:04:57.460 are

01:04:57.700 interested

01:04:58.220 in

01:04:58.400 getting

01:04:58.560 in

01:04:58.740 touch

01:04:59.000 I

01:04:59.600 can

01:04:59.760 be

01:04:59.920 found

01:05:00.240 at

01:05:00.520 cato.org

01:05:01.540 thank you

01:05:02.700 very much

01:05:03.100 we're going to

01:05:04.020 ask you a couple

01:05:04.700 of questions

01:05:05.360 that only our

01:05:06.460 supporters will

01:05:07.160 see in a moment

01:05:08.040 but for now

01:05:08.660 thank you so much

01:05:09.700 for joining us

01:05:10.360 and thank you

01:05:11.200 for watching

01:05:11.740 and listening

01:05:12.240 we'll see you

01:05:13.000 very soon

01:05:13.420 with another

01:05:13.820 brilliant episode

01:05:14.500 like this one

01:05:15.220 or our show

01:05:16.320 all of them

01:05:17.120 go out at

01:05:17.620 7pm UK time

01:05:18.640 and for those

01:05:19.280 of you who

01:05:19.660 like your

01:05:20.060 trigonometry

01:05:20.620 on the go

01:05:21.560 it's also

01:05:22.500 available as a

01:05:23.220 podcast

01:05:23.720 take care

01:05:24.680 and see you

01:05:25.460 soon guys

01:05:26.080 we have made

01:05:28.640 so much

01:05:29.200 progress

01:05:29.800 and we're

01:05:30.760 about to

01:05:32.120 throw it

01:05:32.500 all away

01:05:33.000 because of

01:05:34.160 the narratives

01:05:34.740 that we discussed

01:05:35.580 and we explored

01:05:36.300 in the interview

01:05:37.040 what are the

01:05:37.940 best strategies

01:05:38.680 to ensure

01:05:39.460 that we

01:05:40.180 don't do

01:05:40.860 that

01:05:41.140 and we

01:05:41.960 pull back

01:05:42.540 from the

01:05:42.860 cliff face

01:05:54.680 that we

01:05:56.880 we

01:05:58.120 could be

01:05:58.780 let's

01:05:59.780 we

01:06:00.320 of

01:06:01.200 having

01:06:02.000 so

01:06:02.460 we

01:06:02.800 can

01:06:03.740 see you

TRIGGERnometry - October 20, 2022

＂Climate Activism is a Religion＂ - Marian Tupy

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