TRIGGERnometry - December 27, 2023


Comedians Review 2023 - Andrew Doyle & Geoff Norcott X TRIGGERnometry


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 51 minutes

Words per Minute

212.21724

Word Count

23,641

Sentence Count

911

Misogynist Sentences

59

Hate Speech Sentences

118


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

It has been a year in Clown World, and there s no one better to discuss it than our two favourite clowns, Andrew Doyle and Jeff Norcott. In this special, the lads look back at the past year and talk about their favourite stories and moments of the year.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
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00:01:21.380 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.
00:01:24.720 I'm Francis Foster.
00:01:25.900 I'm Constance and Kissin.
00:01:27.040 This is, of course, our year review special.
00:01:29.700 It has been a brilliant year in Clown World and there's no one better to discuss it than our two favourites,
00:01:34.780 satirist and presenter Andrew Doyle and comedian Jeff Norcott.
00:01:37.480 Welcome both back to the show.
00:01:38.740 You're looking at each other weirdly.
00:01:40.260 It's slightly uncomfortable.
00:01:41.080 It's not weirdly, that's sexual tension.
00:01:43.360 Because we only ever see each other over Zoom, don't we normally?
00:01:45.880 We do, yeah, on podcasts and the like.
00:01:47.820 And I was thinking, this is actually, because a lot of people watch this and go,
00:01:50.840 oh, here we go, you know, there's not much diversity here.
00:01:53.720 But...
00:01:54.040 We don't do diversity at Trigonometry, mate.
00:01:55.740 But, having said that, I was going to point at you and go Jew, but that sounds bad.
00:01:59.680 No, no, it's apt for the current moment, mate.
00:02:01.580 You are Jewish?
00:02:02.420 We've even got a little Palestinian scarf if you want to wear it.
00:02:04.620 Yeah.
00:02:05.680 Latino?
00:02:06.460 Yeah.
00:02:07.300 And then...
00:02:08.200 Homosexual?
00:02:09.180 Homosexual.
00:02:09.860 And then, just gammon.
00:02:11.660 Gammon, yeah.
00:02:12.680 Yeah, so...
00:02:13.200 The way you said homosexual, Andrew...
00:02:14.840 Was there a slight element of judgment about it?
00:02:16.900 No, no, no.
00:02:17.660 I judge myself for my inclination.
00:02:19.540 I would have just...
00:02:20.120 I thought you'd just say gay, but, you know, homosexual.
00:02:22.800 No, homosexual.
00:02:23.160 Just say gay.
00:02:24.300 I think we should reclaim sodomite.
00:02:26.720 That's what I'm going with.
00:02:28.180 Well, that's just...
00:02:28.820 Not just the gays.
00:02:29.820 I mean, anyone...
00:02:31.060 Oh, that's true.
00:02:31.780 That's true.
00:02:32.060 Yeah.
00:02:33.080 You straight people steal everything from us.
00:02:34.920 Yeah.
00:02:35.180 Well, that is kind of true.
00:02:36.480 And I like the way you said homosexual, as if to say there are two sexes, and I'm attracted
00:02:40.220 to the same sex.
00:02:40.940 That's right.
00:02:41.360 Yeah, exactly.
00:02:41.940 Because same-sex attracted has become a dog whistle.
00:02:44.280 Yeah.
00:02:44.560 Apparently.
00:02:45.280 A right-wing dog whistle.
00:02:46.380 We'll talk about all of that.
00:02:48.180 We've got lots of stories from the year that we've picked out to talk about.
00:02:51.600 Believe it or not, the most upvoted story that we had was actually about Nicola Sturgeon,
00:02:56.120 which we'll come to in a minute.
00:02:57.280 Yeah.
00:02:57.420 But sort of working our way back chronologically, we could talk about Nihal Athanayaki and diversity
00:03:03.440 that you brought up.
00:03:04.220 Or we could talk about October 7th and the response, which has obviously been the biggest
00:03:07.420 story in recent weeks.
00:03:09.120 So what did you guys make of that?
00:03:11.120 And what...
00:03:11.700 I mean, Andrew, you've been warning for ages about the left going loopy.
00:03:15.700 Yeah.
00:03:16.640 Sort of gone really loopy now.
00:03:18.200 Well, that's the thing about what has happened since October 7th, is that there are elements
00:03:23.320 of the left that have exposed themselves in horrendous ways.
00:03:27.200 I was genuinely surprised by all of this stuff, this kind of overt expressions of anti-Semitism
00:03:33.260 on the streets of London, people calling for jihad, and then other people making excuses
00:03:37.600 for them as though a jihad was just something sweet that you did, something nice.
00:03:41.940 Did you actually see the Met Police when Hizbut Tahrir, which is a group who are outlawed
00:03:46.060 in most Arab countries, calling for jihad in London?
00:03:49.020 The Met Police put out a tweet saying, yeah, but jihad doesn't necessarily mean holy war.
00:03:52.980 It can mean lots of other things.
00:03:54.280 It can mean a kind of face massage or yoga retreat or something.
00:03:57.620 I don't know what they meant, but it was absolutely nuts that they were doing that.
00:04:01.200 It's like, no, stop making excuses for the very worst kind of people.
00:04:05.520 And we saw it again.
00:04:06.300 And I know there's always a few bad apples in any protest, but there seem to be a lot
00:04:10.120 of rotten apples.
00:04:11.360 You know, a lot of people being very explicit.
00:04:13.240 What I thought was interesting was the evolution of the word sort of Zionist, because if you
00:04:18.040 get like sort of far right loons, they at least can, they know that racist words are
00:04:23.080 bad words.
00:04:23.640 So if the camera's on them, they'll go and they'll check themselves and then they'll
00:04:26.860 say a different word potentially, right?
00:04:28.720 But then there is this sort of blind spot on the other side, which is where you go Zionist.
00:04:32.880 I know what it used to mean.
00:04:34.160 I do feel now that it just, in a lot of cases, it just means Jewish person, you know?
00:04:37.920 And it's this kind of like workaround that they've got where they could almost get the
00:04:42.220 far right in and have a seminar and go, look, we've been doing some incredible work out
00:04:45.680 here and we've realised we found another word you can use and claim that it's not racist.
00:04:50.840 I mean, it has been an astonishing thing.
00:04:53.000 I think there is like, you know, what's happening over there is one thing, but like, I know this
00:04:57.980 country and I know that what I've seen since October the 7th has been startling.
00:05:02.940 There's just been this hierarchy, hasn't there, that the, well, if you want to call them the
00:05:07.960 woke, they always had this idea that there were different oppressed groups and that they're
00:05:11.120 on a different level of the hierarchy and Jews were always privileged.
00:05:14.880 And so they can't bring themselves, even when there's a massacre of over a thousand Jewish
00:05:18.800 people, they can't bring themselves to say, this is anti-Semitic, this is a pogrom, that
00:05:22.760 whatever, they have to whitewash it and work around it.
00:05:24.880 I find that an incredible blind spot.
00:05:27.180 Well, I mean, because the word was used in a lot of cases was like minimising, you know?
00:05:31.040 And it's like, it's almost like from the makers of microaggressions comes macroaggressions.
00:05:36.140 Oh, macroaggressions.
00:05:37.200 So there has been a subversion of a lot of the things that we were told over the last
00:05:41.160 few years were important.
00:05:43.780 And I do think, you know, there is that thing when you look at what's happening, a lot of
00:05:48.520 people would sort of say, given what happened, you know, the Israeli state, you know, had to
00:05:52.860 do something.
00:05:53.600 You can't let your civilians feel like that on an ongoing basis.
00:05:55.780 There's also the issue of the concentration of population in Gaza and whether or not the
00:06:00.880 maximum care has been taken to protect civilians.
00:06:04.180 You know, that's definitely up for debate.
00:06:06.420 But it's very hard as someone like me to know enough about that to comment with total confidence.
00:06:12.060 But like I say, when you look at what's happened repeatedly on the streets of London, you know,
00:06:17.200 I've got Jewish friends who aren't like, you know, they're not prone to like dramatism or
00:06:23.080 anything like that. But they've said that they don't want to go in central London anymore,
00:06:26.860 particularly at weekends. And that in, you know, 2023 is bad.
00:06:30.960 Andrew, and the point about what Jeff makes about, you know, who knows what's happening
00:06:35.280 over there. I don't think any of the four of us are Middle East peace process experts
00:06:39.860 exactly. But the reaction domestically has been the thing that I think has opened a lot
00:06:45.660 of people's eyes. And we saw it recently with these presidents or whatever they are,
00:06:49.920 of these major American universities being asked in a hearing is calling for genocide
00:06:55.780 of the Jews' harassment. And they were, well, it depends on the context, which I actually
00:07:02.000 would sort of be fine with if that had been consistent throughout the last seven years.
00:07:06.780 Whereas these people have been like, oh, you asked me where I'm from.
00:07:10.500 I mean, they've kicked out students and professors for microaggressions and less,
00:07:15.720 you know. So, you know, these are people who have been rigidly policing speech on campus
00:07:20.480 and say that there are very, very clear violations of code of conducts. And actually,
00:07:23.900 it's based on the perception of individuals. So if people perceive that they are offended
00:07:27.860 or upset, then you're going to be punished for that. But calling for the genocide of Jews,
00:07:32.720 that requires a bit more context, a bit more discussion.
00:07:35.520 What is the argument? It's like, as long as you don't do the genocide.
00:07:38.660 That's what it's said.
00:07:39.380 Yeah, that's it.
00:07:40.460 Act it out.
00:07:41.020 Quite a hard thing to carry out. So, you know, you have to, it's just, you know, that
00:07:44.640 in any other kind of historical kind of grievance against a race of people, that those rules
00:07:50.880 wouldn't have been applied. And it's, again, it's like from the makers of words of violence
00:07:54.360 comes words of violence.
00:07:55.500 Words of just words.
00:07:56.420 That's what I wish that the, whoever was doing the questioning in Congress had said.
00:08:00.280 Yeah.
00:08:00.580 Just, okay, then in that case.
00:08:01.900 But from the makers of words of violence.
00:08:04.080 No, not a Jeff Norcott routine.
00:08:05.480 If she'd have just said, you know, well, is it okay to call for the mass murder of gay
00:08:11.820 people, for instance? Is it okay to call for the genocide of black people? Is that, and
00:08:16.140 to put that question to them, they would immediately have to say no, no, no. And then you get to
00:08:19.600 the Jews. It's like context. So, you know, it's, it's the double standards. I think that
00:08:23.500 bothers everyone, you know? I mean, you could say, you could take an absolute free speech
00:08:26.840 line and say anything should be able to be said on university campus, but they should
00:08:30.320 apply it. Not just, not just, you know, they can't fall back on a free speech defense
00:08:33.900 where they've been so terrible at upholding free speech standards in the past. It just
00:08:37.680 doesn't work.
00:08:38.440 Why is it worse to say that there are two biological sexes and men can't become women? Why is that
00:08:45.300 worse than calling for genocide of the Jews?
00:08:48.000 Because we're dealing with an ideology that is internally inconsistent and incoherent. So
00:08:52.840 it doesn't, you know, you're, you're looking for rationality where none can possibly exist.
00:08:57.580 But the thing that I find bizarre is that surely that is so obvious that anybody would look
00:09:03.660 at that and go, yeah, I mean, this doesn't make sense.
00:09:06.340 Yeah. You would think.
00:09:08.880 The one thing I wonder, you know, on this panel, there is, there is a chance I'll be the woke
00:09:13.440 one.
00:09:13.820 Yeah.
00:09:14.260 I think so.
00:09:14.980 You are the woke one.
00:09:16.160 You're still in the comedy industry, Jeff.
00:09:17.800 Tell us your pronouns.
00:09:18.520 I used to, I used to have edge, I used to have edge once upon a time, but I do think,
00:09:22.480 you know, as, as we're talking like, you know, time of recording, you know, the number,
00:09:26.100 the death toll in Gaza, I mean, whether or not people take those numbers at face value,
00:09:30.700 you know, we talk about serious numbers, even if it was half that actually in a short
00:09:34.140 space of time.
00:09:34.780 So I am conscious of this thing of, and some people will call it like a mealy mouth of trying
00:09:40.320 to militate between all of these things, between concern for British Jews, between understanding
00:09:45.940 why any nation under the experience what happened on October the 7th would have to react, but
00:09:50.260 also whether or not what's happening is something that historically, you know, we might look back
00:09:54.760 at and go, was, was maximum care taken?
00:09:57.620 Is, is it for us to say, I mean, there was a report in the Lancet that, that seemed to
00:10:01.600 corroborate, you know, the, the health authority.
00:10:03.880 Now it is a Hamas health authority.
00:10:06.360 So it's really hard.
00:10:08.140 And there's a lot of times where people have said, well, if you give a nuanced answer to
00:10:11.860 this, well, you're an enemy or you're complicit in one side or the other.
00:10:15.120 But I mean, this is a historical grievance.
00:10:17.660 It's, it's all about nuance, you know, in a way.
00:10:20.080 The one thing there's no nuance about is what happened on October the 7th and, and that
00:10:24.420 attack was so designed to be disturbing, right?
00:10:27.200 It was, it was, it was set up and predicated and designed to disturb and appall and traumatize
00:10:32.920 people, you know, in, in a way.
00:10:34.800 And what's been odd since is people acting like that wasn't in a way the intention of
00:10:38.840 it.
00:10:39.140 That's my view.
00:10:39.760 I mean, my, my concern about that is I think you can have nuanced discussions about,
00:10:42.880 you know, is the Israeli government doing enough to prevent civilian deaths, et cetera.
00:10:47.020 You can have a discussion about the history.
00:10:48.580 You can talk about the establishment of, of Israel in the forties and whether, you know,
00:10:51.920 there were atrocities committed at that time, et cetera, all of those things.
00:10:54.580 You can have that conversation without just being completely blind to the sheer medieval
00:10:58.720 barbarism of what went on on October the 7th.
00:11:01.000 Why can we not all agree that the mass murder, rape and torture of, of civilians is just horrendous
00:11:06.200 and wrong?
00:11:06.740 Why do we have to obfuscate?
00:11:08.840 That doesn't need, that's my point.
00:11:10.040 There's not a moral equivalent.
00:11:11.560 There's really not a moral equivalent.
00:11:12.880 You know, you're dealing with a group of people, Hamas, who are genocidal.
00:11:16.240 They are explicitly, they tell you, they say they want to wipe Jews from the planet.
00:11:19.780 They want to wipe the state of Israel away.
00:11:21.940 They film themselves murdering and raping and torturing and put it out there and boast
00:11:26.900 about it.
00:11:27.700 And then we say there's a moral equivalence between the IDF who, you know, if they were
00:11:32.920 trying to commit genocide, wouldn't be, you know, showering the country with leaflets to
00:11:37.280 say, get out so that you don't get killed.
00:11:39.000 There isn't a moral equivalence between a terrorist group that targets civilians for
00:11:45.480 rape, torture and murder and a military response to that, that actually goes out of its way
00:11:51.300 to avoid civilian death.
00:11:53.140 That is short.
00:11:54.060 Where do we reach the point where those things are comparable?
00:11:56.040 Because I don't think they are.
00:11:57.100 Right.
00:11:57.280 And I also think it's important.
00:11:58.580 I mean, coming back to what you're saying, Jeff, is to emphasize that I don't think any
00:12:01.780 of us has a particularly strongly expressed position on how Israel was created or the
00:12:09.040 right military tactics, because I don't think any of us really are qualified to talk about
00:12:13.280 that effectively.
00:12:14.360 What I think we're talking about is the reaction domestically.
00:12:17.420 And I think it tells you a lot about the state of our society, that people are making,
00:12:21.780 A, that moral equivalence.
00:12:22.920 I also think, you know, Jeff will probably cringe as the work one on the panel, but it
00:12:26.960 tells you about the impact of mass immigration on our societies.
00:12:29.580 Particularly from countries where people are coming in with values that are just so alien
00:12:34.780 to our own.
00:12:36.320 But I wouldn't cringe in the way, I think that what you have is like groups of people
00:12:39.860 that have priorities now.
00:12:41.440 And also, they're like a cohort in the electorate that actually, there's a lot of politicians
00:12:45.920 that are getting elected, saying, we will represent you.
00:12:48.380 And then at the point where there's an issue that they all care about, they're going, all
00:12:51.380 right, represent us.
00:12:52.220 And that's where it became tricky for the Labour Party, because they go, oh, you know, it's
00:12:57.160 nuanced.
00:12:57.600 And they're saying, well, not for us, that's why we voted for you.
00:13:00.240 We thought that you would represent exactly what we thought.
00:13:02.800 We thought you were the Muslim candidate.
00:13:04.120 Yeah.
00:13:04.320 Why are you doing what Muslims want?
00:13:05.900 Well, I would believe more in a responsible sort of form of politics where it's left to
00:13:11.180 that point.
00:13:11.500 They're not a delegate.
00:13:12.340 It's not like a union thing where you're tasked and you have to have one opinion on
00:13:15.920 that issue.
00:13:16.480 But I think that those, these are fault lines we've never crossed in British politics before.
00:13:20.640 It's sectarianism.
00:13:21.560 Yeah.
00:13:21.780 There is something very interesting in what you raise as well, in terms of our commitment to
00:13:25.660 liberal values in this country, because a lot of people on the anti-woke side are talking
00:13:30.180 about, are advocating very sort of anti-liberal perspectives now about deportations, about
00:13:35.300 the idea that we just cannot tolerate the intolerant.
00:13:38.100 And therefore we have to impose these.
00:13:41.360 And I, I, I'm not so, you know, ban protests, for instance, arrest people for hate speech.
00:13:46.900 And I just think if we're not, you know, steadfast in our commitment to say anyone should be able
00:13:51.680 to protest, anyone should be able to say whatever they want, even if we find it abhorrent.
00:13:55.360 I think this has been a real test.
00:13:57.000 All of this stuff has been a huge test.
00:13:58.960 Yeah, it has.
00:13:59.260 It comes back to the point about the universities though, Andrew, because you, if you have a
00:14:04.260 situation where a bunch of police officers are exchanging WhatsApp messages and they
00:14:08.720 get prosecuted for that, if someone goes and pray silently outside an abortion clinic and
00:14:13.560 they get prosecuted for that, if someone tweets a transphobic inverted commas limerick and
00:14:18.980 they get arrested for that.
00:14:20.280 And then you have people openly calling for jihad on mass in the streets of London.
00:14:24.980 I don't think it's unreasonable for people at that point to be like, why didn't we see
00:14:29.300 some consistency here?
00:14:30.400 Yeah, I think the public and the British public generally got a fairly good sense of fair play.
00:14:34.200 Some of the interesting stuff coming out of the protest has been like people have said,
00:14:37.440 well, there was 300,000 people.
00:14:39.140 And so relatively there wasn't much of this.
00:14:41.440 We go, well, 1% of 3000 is still a lot, you know, 300,000 is still 3000.
00:14:46.280 That's a lot of people doing anti-Semitic stuff.
00:14:48.720 So that's interesting though, because I've had this debate with a few people about, do you
00:14:52.220 remember when there was that trans pride rally in London and a trans activist stood up and
00:14:57.060 said, if you see a turf, punch her in the fucking face and the whole crowd cheered.
00:15:02.000 Now for me, that suggests a normalization within that movement of violence against women.
00:15:06.340 It's not, you know.
00:15:07.220 And it's incitement to violence as well.
00:15:08.960 Well, there's that as well.
00:15:09.640 So what I would say, and people would say, yeah, but you can't tar everyone with the
00:15:13.260 same brush.
00:15:13.620 But I'm like, if I were at a protest and someone stood up and called for violence and most of
00:15:17.780 the crowd cheered, I would think I'm probably in the wrong movement here.
00:15:21.180 I think that's the point is that anti-Semitic signs, right?
00:15:24.140 Why aren't people grabbing them and saying, don't do that.
00:15:26.300 You're going to bring our movement into this review.
00:15:27.620 Why is it tolerated?
00:15:28.780 I think you're right.
00:15:29.680 Like there was a time when that's, you know, people on the progressive left were saying,
00:15:33.620 well, what are you adjacent to?
00:15:34.840 And that's what people sometimes said to me about voting Brexit was like, well, who,
00:15:38.120 you know, look, who else voted for that?
00:15:40.340 Look who else was in favor of that.
00:15:41.940 And then suddenly those things are less important.
00:15:44.480 I mean, there's been like a very, you know, there's been, it's true that 300,000 people
00:15:49.140 is a lot of people.
00:15:49.780 And 1% isn't a lot, but like, that's so many different incidents.
00:15:52.740 And then the police, the police have done this weird approach to policing it, whereby
00:15:55.740 it's almost like tag them in.
00:15:57.540 It's almost like a classic modern social media thing.
00:15:59.720 Do you know who this guy is?
00:16:00.700 Tag him in.
00:16:01.340 Like, no police in the moment, please, because you cannot, it's got, justice has got to be
00:16:06.860 applied without fear or favor.
00:16:08.260 So if you're saying, well, we don't want to arrest that person there because we're worried
00:16:11.020 about what would happen next.
00:16:12.540 You can't do that.
00:16:13.740 If in other situations you would weigh in and it's been, yeah, it has been an eye opener
00:16:18.440 in a way, but like, I wonder if like, like Brexit, where our institutions were tested
00:16:23.400 and actually whatever you think about Brexit, they sort of did survive it in a way is that
00:16:27.900 these are sort of conversations that we needed to have.
00:16:30.900 Obviously the reason we're having them is, is, is dreadful, but we're finding out a lot
00:16:34.500 more about what Britain is in 2023.
00:16:36.960 And there's also something as well, which people don't discuss because they don't know
00:16:41.080 enough about it.
00:16:41.960 So a little bit of background.
00:16:42.960 My grandfather was from Lebanon, so he was an Arab and he was, but he was Christian, but
00:16:48.120 he associated Israel with Jews and he was vehemently anti-Semitic and wanted Israel to be got rid
00:16:56.880 of because it was partly because he saw it as an abomination, what I, what happened to
00:17:02.880 the Palestinian people.
00:17:04.000 But a large part of it was because he was anti-Semitic.
00:17:07.900 And the reality is that if you actually ask a lot of people in that crowd, what their opinion
00:17:14.380 is of Jewish people and they were honest, it's quite unpleasant because look, the history
00:17:21.280 is a history and it is complicated, but there is also a large dollop of racism and hatred
00:17:26.480 that is also mixed into this issue, which if people are honest and they won't be, it
00:17:31.740 is impossible to disentangle.
00:17:34.020 It'd be good if they were willing to apply, because I think a lot of people, I think a
00:17:38.880 lot of those people on those marches weren't anti-Semites, but I think they're willing
00:17:42.020 to sort of block out, like they're wearing blinkers if they, if it's going on to sort
00:17:46.700 of deny that it's there.
00:17:48.460 And, and they also play, they're playing these word games.
00:17:51.080 You know, you have people openly calling for intifada and you can say, yes, well, technically
00:17:55.460 speaking, that word just means an uprising against injustice.
00:17:59.080 Okay, fine.
00:17:59.720 But then you have to blind yourself to the, the connotations of that word.
00:18:04.140 You know, we think of the intifada, people in Israel think of the intifada, they think
00:18:07.100 of mass murder of civilians, terrorist acts, and you can't just pretend and wish away those
00:18:11.220 connotations.
00:18:12.220 These sort of word games, like I just can't bear it.
00:18:14.140 Well, that was another problem, wasn't it?
00:18:15.400 Where for a while we were told that whatever people from a community felt about a word or phrase,
00:18:20.220 believe them, you know, hear their words, all this stuff.
00:18:22.720 And then when you get to the river, the sea is going, yeah, but they're a bit sensitive,
00:18:26.340 you know.
00:18:27.340 You know, again, there's this, there's this complete, there's this complete flip.
00:18:31.400 I mean, I do wonder as well with the protests, whether to a degree, there's like, there is
00:18:35.640 a lot of anger, I think, post COVID, I've never known in this country that a lot of different
00:18:39.540 people are angry about a lot of different things.
00:18:41.340 So it's just like, this is the thing you go down Saturday, this is the issue through,
00:18:44.960 and I'm not saying people aren't emotionally invested in this, but for some people, it's just
00:18:48.480 a way of expressing, expressing like a broad anti-establishment sentiment.
00:18:52.700 And some of it, you know, is passionately felt, but there's also been proper people's
00:18:57.280 front of Judea moments.
00:18:58.520 There was, I mean, I don't know if you saw the clip in McDonald's, where obviously people
00:19:02.280 were told to get out for McDonald's.
00:19:04.060 And there's this one lad on the loud hailer, and he was going like, everyone, get out of
00:19:08.120 the McDonald's.
00:19:08.620 And there was a lot of people with Palestinian flags who were going, no, like, we're getting
00:19:13.340 chicken nuggets.
00:19:13.960 And you can see him sort of realise that no one's going to leave, and he's going, and
00:19:18.100 then he goes, unless you're going to use the toilets, I suppose.
00:19:21.880 Like, his belief in the cause was way for Finn, and then his mate, she said, the thing is,
00:19:26.080 the toilets in here don't even work.
00:19:27.500 I thought, well, how would you know if you hadn't been here?
00:19:29.900 You know, so there's been this thing where some of it is vicious, some of it is the usual
00:19:35.660 protest crowd.
00:19:36.820 And then some of it, like these people who were shouting and people coming outside of McDonald's,
00:19:40.380 like, shame on you.
00:19:41.720 You go, they're sort of laughing as they're doing it.
00:19:44.260 It's just, it's shits and giggles for some.
00:19:47.040 Don't you think it's also that thing of, there's a sense of it's compulsory.
00:19:50.220 So if you have that mindset, the woke mindset, you have to follow a certain set of beliefs.
00:19:54.680 But like, when it comes to the Palestine-Israel conflict, they just know automatically which
00:19:57.960 side they're on, even if they don't know nothing about what's going on.
00:20:00.640 I mean, we've seen people interviewed about river to the sea.
00:20:02.840 What river, what sea are they talking about?
00:20:04.540 They don't know.
00:20:05.320 Or they're interviewing someone about what happened on October the 7th.
00:20:07.780 Oh, did something happen?
00:20:08.720 You know, they don't know.
00:20:09.520 So it reminds me of the Brexit thing where all my lefty friends who had no interest in
00:20:15.240 the EU, never expressed an opinion on it in their life, suddenly started waving the EU flag
00:20:20.200 or painting their faces in EU colours.
00:20:22.100 It's like, you don't really care about this.
00:20:23.480 You just know that in this world, that's the good side and you're on the good side.
00:20:27.640 So therefore, you have to do that.
00:20:29.240 Is that true of like, on both sides of whatever the culture war would be supposed to be?
00:20:33.100 So if someone says to you, like, they don't like Meghan Markle, you can kind of then go,
00:20:38.220 well, you probably don't like Greta.
00:20:39.760 You probably do like Top Gear.
00:20:41.520 You know, like, I think you're right.
00:20:43.480 There's almost like, for some people, and whatever the culture war is, there's almost like
00:20:47.640 this kind of standard raft of opinions.
00:20:50.560 And I think the most interesting people you speak to in Britain in 2023 are actually the
00:20:54.160 people that would just surprise you and go kind of like, yeah, you know, I'm pro one
00:20:58.100 issue, but actually, you know, like a proper geezer that, oh, I love a bit of Greta Thunberg.
00:21:02.980 You go, well, okay, well, you might be worth speaking to because I didn't expect you necessarily.
00:21:07.300 That's too important though, isn't it?
00:21:08.300 Like, I hate the fact that I can so often predict someone's opinions on everything if I
00:21:12.420 know their opinion on one thing.
00:21:13.340 Just one thing, yeah, yeah.
00:21:14.320 And that's not the case for most of my friends, actually.
00:21:16.660 I've found that people, most people that I know now are quite surprising, do surprise
00:21:20.320 me every now and then in a position that they take.
00:21:22.760 And speaking, you carry on, Jeff.
00:21:25.040 Well, I was just going to say, like, with Meghan Markle, there is no real reason that
00:21:28.620 if you like Meghan Markle, you should be concerned about the climate crisis.
00:21:32.480 There's no logical reason that connects those, but it's this whole bunch of other stuff that
00:21:36.880 does somehow find itself part of it.
00:21:39.440 We'll get back to the episode in a minute.
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00:23:11.940 Check it out.
00:23:12.820 And now, back to the interview.
00:23:14.720 Speaking of being surprised, I don't think any of us would have had
00:23:18.240 David Cameron being foreign secretary.
00:23:20.940 No.
00:23:21.220 On our card of whatever the card is for the year.
00:23:24.640 Yeah.
00:23:25.120 No.
00:23:25.940 How?
00:23:26.800 Just when you thought the Tories were running out of ideas,
00:23:30.120 they brought that old thing back.
00:23:32.500 I mean, it's a weird one, isn't it?
00:23:33.820 Because, no, I didn't expect that at all.
00:23:36.420 But it feels like a sign of desperation.
00:23:38.820 Like, they don't really know what else to do at this point.
00:23:41.140 Well, it's kind of weird because James Cleverley was sort of doing a pretty decent job.
00:23:45.200 You know, a lot of people that worked with him said that.
00:23:47.200 And then he gets thrown into that, right, you've got Rwanda, the legal bill,
00:23:51.220 you know the job where you're flying around meeting presidents.
00:23:53.460 No, no, no.
00:23:54.140 That's all done, mate.
00:23:54.900 You've got currently the hardest thing in the Tory party.
00:23:57.820 And then Cameron comes back.
00:23:59.500 It was genuinely the closest to, like, an EastEnders doof-doof moment I've ever seen.
00:24:04.220 Like, we go, it's David Cameron.
00:24:05.760 He's like, I'm back in the square.
00:24:08.140 And he...
00:24:09.020 Why do you think he did it?
00:24:10.400 Because I kind of think, like, he was in hiding.
00:24:12.460 He was so embarrassed about Brexit and the pig thing, the pig gate thing,
00:24:17.100 which we've all forgotten.
00:24:18.020 Why aren't people making more of that?
00:24:19.340 You know, but he's come back.
00:24:20.440 Do you think he did that, though?
00:24:21.420 Well, the pig thing?
00:24:22.000 Yeah.
00:24:22.460 Oh, he definitely...
00:24:23.020 I mean, no.
00:24:23.660 No, no, no.
00:24:24.280 To give him his due, the accusation was that he, can I be explicit,
00:24:28.140 fucked a pig's head.
00:24:30.020 Yeah.
00:24:30.500 And that's not true.
00:24:32.060 I wouldn't have thought so, no.
00:24:32.820 No, what he did was he placed his flaccid penis into the dead pig's mouth.
00:24:36.640 See?
00:24:37.340 I mean, who hasn't done that?
00:24:39.400 Morally, they are on different levels.
00:24:40.920 Yeah.
00:24:41.520 But I'm not saying he did, by the way, in case someone's going to sue me.
00:24:44.120 That was the allegation...
00:24:45.960 That he placed his...
00:24:46.680 There was never an allegation that he'd had sex with a dead pig,
00:24:49.380 but it became that he fucked a dead pig.
00:24:50.620 Yeah.
00:24:51.180 That particular dead pig clearly wasn't his type.
00:24:53.800 But that does sound like a university, like, initiation thing.
00:24:57.320 It sounds like something that would have happened, doesn't it?
00:25:01.080 I mean, I think at the time...
00:25:02.920 That won't stand up in court, Andrew, by the way, just so you know.
00:25:05.080 That sounds like something that could have happened, will not stand up in court.
00:25:08.620 Oh, will it not?
00:25:09.120 Okay.
00:25:09.420 Well, I mean, I know he definitely didn't do it, by the way.
00:25:12.700 Yeah.
00:25:14.340 I mean, I...
00:25:15.260 Andrew was there.
00:25:16.000 I think also there was an interesting moment, like, when he stepped out of that car,
00:25:19.960 where you heard the journalist be surprised.
00:25:21.900 And this is just me pushing my agenda here.
00:25:24.000 But Kay, is it Kay Burney?
00:25:25.600 Mm-hmm.
00:25:26.160 She was like, oh, he's put on weight.
00:25:27.920 And I thought, my God, you would not say that about, like...
00:25:30.720 If a male news journalist, broadcaster, anchor, said that about a female politician,
00:25:36.280 you'd go, after the break, that guy won't beat it, right?
00:25:38.840 Yeah.
00:25:39.500 Like, that's how quickly it could happen.
00:25:41.620 Yeah.
00:25:41.860 And I thought, you know, it wasn't the most surprising thing about David Cameron coming back either.
00:25:47.860 It's not really great journalism.
00:25:49.400 I mean, what was really surprising was somebody comes out of the wilderness.
00:25:52.080 I guess it was the only job that had the prestige that he would have come back for.
00:25:56.260 Foreign Secretary is the only one that's got a bit of gladness.
00:25:58.420 Oh, I see. So you think he did it for that?
00:25:59.340 Oh, God, yeah, yeah.
00:26:00.160 And he also, you know, they all want, you know, what is my legacy?
00:26:03.200 And his has got worse and worse ever since he left office.
00:26:05.920 Don't they make a lot of money, though?
00:26:07.240 Like, ex-prime ministers, they do the tools.
00:26:08.840 Oh, they can make speeches.
00:26:09.640 Yeah, but it's not about money.
00:26:10.660 It's about ego.
00:26:11.360 Yeah.
00:26:12.580 It's definitely about ego at this point.
00:26:14.840 What I thought was interesting as well, broadening it out a little bit,
00:26:17.900 is obviously the reason that happened is Suella Breverman made some pretty strong worded comments
00:26:23.020 about two-tier policing, about the protests, about the marches, et cetera.
00:26:27.560 She was removed.
00:26:28.640 She was basically forced out because of that.
00:26:31.680 And that's how we've ended up here.
00:26:32.960 And what seems to me to be the long-term impact of that is the Tory right, which she represents,
00:26:38.740 effectively, is now going to splinter off.
00:26:41.300 Suddenly, the voters to, you know, reform or probably more likely not vote at all.
00:26:45.700 Yeah.
00:26:45.820 We're going to have a general election next year, and I just wonder if this isn't going
00:26:49.940 to be an absolute disaster for the Conservatives.
00:26:52.220 I mean, absolute disaster, it seems like to me.
00:26:54.320 Well, first thing to say, Suella was correct about the two-tier police.
00:26:56.300 Completely.
00:26:56.820 Yeah.
00:26:57.020 That's absolutely right.
00:26:58.080 Yeah.
00:26:58.660 What do the Tories think that they're doing?
00:27:00.560 Who are they trying to placate?
00:27:01.760 Should she, like when you're Home Secretary, I agree that most of the public, or a good portion
00:27:06.320 of the public would see a lot of truth in what she said.
00:27:08.900 But when you're Home Secretary, saying that about the police publicly, also in an article,
00:27:13.880 you do have to have a bit of collective responsibility.
00:27:16.000 Look, I'll be honest, I'm not the biggest Suella fan, but I did feel at that point, she
00:27:20.020 was sort of like a midfielder going in, putting in two-footed tackles under the nose of the
00:27:24.440 ref, going, go on, send me off.
00:27:25.540 But what else can you do?
00:27:26.480 Because if you think about it, when Priti Patel was Home Secretary, when Suella Brogerman,
00:27:30.080 they issue these directives to the police, and the police ignore them, because they are
00:27:33.900 so ideologically captured.
00:27:35.320 Or the same with the civil service.
00:27:36.440 We had a whistleblower recently talking about how, in the civil service, any policy regarding
00:27:40.660 immigration is going to be ignored by the staff members.
00:27:43.320 We just put out an episode with Steve Hilton, former advisor to David Cameron, who basically
00:27:48.140 told us story after story about how they tried to do things, and you just can't, because
00:27:52.460 the civil service will sabotage anything you do that they don't like.
00:27:55.300 Exactly.
00:27:55.760 So if I were Home Secretary, I'd be slagging off the civil service constantly, slagging off
00:27:59.400 the police, going for them publicly, because they, you know...
00:28:01.720 In many ways, I think people saw Suella Brogerman as the one person who was willing
00:28:06.400 to slag off the people that needed slagging off, because nothing gets done.
00:28:10.620 It's just about the realpolitik element of it.
00:28:13.680 Like, you know, like when Cameron said to Jeremy Corbyn, you know, put on a tie and sing
00:28:18.280 the national anthem.
00:28:19.180 You know, when you're Home Secretary, just one of the things that you're going to run
00:28:22.200 into trouble if you do, is if you slag off the police in public.
00:28:24.620 I understand all the reasons that you're saying where the frustration comes from, but it becomes
00:28:28.680 very hard after that to manage, you know, manage relations.
00:28:32.820 And it puts, you know, it puts Rishi in this weird...
00:28:35.520 I've sort of been calling him Brittany Sunak a bit this year, because the amount of costume
00:28:39.380 changes that the geezer has had in the space of a year, you know.
00:28:42.740 He was stability guy, you know, stability Rishi.
00:28:45.700 Then he was, what was it, long-term decisions for a better future guy.
00:28:49.380 Then he was Ulez Rishi.
00:28:50.420 He was like, fuck the climate, you know.
00:28:51.840 Then he was like, and then, and then now he's, then he was the change guy at conference.
00:28:58.800 I am the change candidate.
00:29:00.840 And now he's, well, actually, let's just bring back David Cameron.
00:29:03.700 And it looks like, it looks like bringing your dad to work day.
00:29:06.380 I mean, the thing is, if you're already the prime minister that looks most like an eight-year-old
00:29:10.200 boy, right, I would not have someone who looks like your dad and your uncle come along
00:29:14.920 with you.
00:29:15.620 I mean, I think he's found himself, because the polls haven't changed in a year, he's just
00:29:20.860 found himself lurching.
00:29:22.060 And the impression that the public get, and I think it's a fair one, is that he doesn't
00:29:25.620 really have a core set of principles at this point.
00:29:28.820 But you could say that about Starmer as well.
00:29:30.460 I think that they are two cheeks of the same ass.
00:29:32.840 Yeah.
00:29:33.640 The problem is, though, is going back to the Suella thing, is that what it really means
00:29:38.700 is that democracy doesn't exist.
00:29:42.080 Because people voted for the conservatives because they wanted a government that is conservative,
00:29:47.200 that had conservative policies.
00:29:48.520 But if a conservative government can no longer implement conservative policies, because the
00:29:54.220 blob or whatever, the civil service, whatever you want to call them, refuse to enact them,
00:29:59.480 then what are you left with?
00:30:01.160 So what's going to happen next time then?
00:30:02.500 You know, because Labour will get in, and then the conservative party presumably will shift
00:30:06.160 to the right, because that's what the voting base want.
00:30:08.560 And then you'll get a full-on, hardcore Tory government that does a bonfire of the quangos,
00:30:13.640 but it's a gut to civil service.
00:30:15.860 Bonfire of the quangos does sound like one of those weird films from the 70s starring
00:30:19.720 Paul Newman.
00:30:22.560 Yeah, he did purely for the money.
00:30:24.740 But I disagree.
00:30:26.320 I don't think they will ever...
00:30:27.120 You don't think they'll do it?
00:30:28.280 Because I don't think they can do it.
00:30:30.320 Or they're certainly not the political will to be able to do it, because if you're going
00:30:33.400 to do it, you're going to get into it.
00:30:34.600 It's new, though.
00:30:35.520 I mean, we used to have a program called, like, Yes Minister, Yes Prime Minister.
00:30:39.200 It's this idea of the civil service pushing back for continuity.
00:30:43.280 Maybe it's just something that occurs when either administration flips to the right,
00:30:47.520 or indeed the left-right.
00:30:48.660 But you're right, whether that's democratic or not is another issue entirely.
00:30:52.800 Problem is, with the way the press operate in this country, is that if you talk about
00:30:56.020 civil service, or even if you criticise public health bodies, it's all Trumpian.
00:30:59.820 Or it's Trumpian.
00:31:00.700 I mean, this COVID inquiry has proved it, that there are civil servants with quite clear
00:31:06.580 agendas, you know, that effectively take political decisions.
00:31:10.920 It's fine.
00:31:11.280 If we have that conversation with the British public, and the British public go on fine
00:31:14.160 with that, fine.
00:31:14.700 But we've never had that chat, really.
00:31:16.100 And, Geoff, none of the three of us has really followed the COVID inquiry.
00:31:20.340 What I hear out of it is exactly the opposite of what I wanted to hear out of it.
00:31:23.980 It seems we didn't lock down fast or hard enough, apparently.
00:31:26.860 That's their conclusion.
00:31:27.700 Is that right?
00:31:28.060 Well, the thing was, I thought, is it to inquire what happened?
00:31:32.080 Or is it to prosecute the idea that the government were a shitshow, right?
00:31:35.800 And it's certainly with people like Hugo Keith Casey.
00:31:38.400 That seems to be his focus.
00:31:40.120 And, you know, there's all these salacious WhatsApps.
00:31:42.860 Oh, he called himself a titbuck or a bum wank.
00:31:45.860 Or, you know, and that has been, you know, that has been what's often led the news.
00:31:50.400 Whereas I think genuinely, the interesting thing that comes out of it is how did the instruments
00:31:53.860 of state work under pressure?
00:31:55.740 We know what happened with the government.
00:31:56.780 Most people have come to their conclusions.
00:31:58.520 But the civil service don't come out of it well.
00:32:00.800 And also, a lot of decisions that people fought with the government were actually sage.
00:32:05.060 But because, again, there's this thing in the liberal press whereby, you know, somehow
00:32:08.940 health bodies and the civil service are sacrosanct and never make shit decisions.
00:32:13.160 They never make egotistical decisions.
00:32:14.780 Like, for example, like the Cheltenham Festival, a lot of people were frustrated that that went ahead.
00:32:18.740 That was under sage advice, you know, literally under sage advice.
00:32:22.280 So I actually think that the headlines that have come out of the inquiry have been pitiful, really.
00:32:28.740 Oh, Boris probably shouldn't have shaken someone's patient's hand at the hospital.
00:32:33.520 We're going, we all kind of had that chat around the same time all those celebrities were singing Imagine, you know.
00:32:38.680 And then three years later, this is headline news.
00:32:41.220 I think the much more interesting thing is who, you know, who do we rely on for our health advice?
00:32:46.800 And did they perform under pressure?
00:32:49.300 And don't you think that this is all too little, too late?
00:32:53.620 And it's pointless, isn't it?
00:32:55.800 It's pointless.
00:32:56.740 Well, I don't think it's going to change many people's minds.
00:32:59.580 But, you know, with Sunak's testimony, what was interesting was you finally get this discussion of whether or not, you know, risk versus reward.
00:33:06.640 And I'm sure those questions have been asked, but they've certainly not been the ones that have been leading the news at 10.
00:33:12.340 And the general sort of spirit of it is it should have gone sooner, harder, longer.
00:33:15.960 All these porny, pornographic types, sooner, harder, longer.
00:33:19.700 But actually, you know, if you look at Omicron, it was the opposite.
00:33:22.240 So they say if you're going to make a decision, make it soon, make it hard, make it long.
00:33:25.460 And whereas Omicron, if we'd have done that, we'd have screwed the economy even harder for a lot longer.
00:33:31.340 When actually we found that that was the right decision, was to wait for more evidence.
00:33:35.000 So as you watch the inquiry, do you come away from it going, if there's another pandemic in my lifetime, we're going to smash that one?
00:33:43.920 We, well, I think it'll be more like that show.
00:33:47.200 You've seen The Last of Us, you know, where just everyone.
00:33:50.300 Is that a zombie one?
00:33:50.740 Yeah, yeah, kind of zombie.
00:33:51.920 I think it'll be more like that.
00:33:52.980 It'd just be get a machine gun and head to the hills.
00:33:56.280 Yeah, it just seems like we haven't actually learned any of the actual lessons.
00:34:00.600 I mean, when you look at Sweden, for example, and what they were able to do there, the comparison is night and day to me.
00:34:06.000 And instead of looking at them and going, how could we adjust what we did to get better results?
00:34:10.200 Like you said, it's about prosecuting the politicians who we want to hold guilty.
00:34:15.080 But you won't get compliance, will you, if it happens again?
00:34:17.760 As in people now know that the masks are ineffective, so no one's going to wear masks.
00:34:21.280 You say that, Andrew, I thought you wouldn't get compliance.
00:34:24.360 I never thought the British public would accept this curtain twitching fucking looking, oh, he's gone out for a second walk bullshit.
00:34:32.000 But we all did.
00:34:32.720 Well, there's still a majority, there's still 20% of people think the nightclubs should be shut forever.
00:34:37.440 There's still 10% of people that think that we should have a 10pm curfew.
00:34:46.480 So these people, I think that they would, I think you're right, but I think that there would be less compliance.
00:34:51.620 And this thing about prosecuting an idea, I mean, there's been so much ego from some of the KCs.
00:34:56.860 And he's got this little code, Hugo, Keith, where he sort of says, forgive me, which means I think that's bollocks.
00:35:02.420 But he says, is it not the case?
00:35:04.580 He goes, oh, are you going to tell us what you think now, mate?
00:35:06.600 Is it not the case that that was a shit show?
00:35:09.440 You think, I didn't think, and maybe this is how they work inquiries, maybe it's the first one I've watched closely, but I didn't think it was supposed to be like you've got a theory of everything went wrong and then you essentially cross-examine.
00:35:21.820 I thought you just ask questions maybe, find out what happened.
00:35:25.940 But I guess maybe you have to put them under pressure to get the truth.
00:35:28.780 I think that the problem is with COVID is that it turned us into, like, we all thought, it was like, you know, when you watch England football team, you go, yeah, I could do better than that.
00:35:38.300 You know, everybody thinks that they could have, looking back, thinks that they could have handled it better, whilst at the same time, and look, the government made huge mistakes and I disagree with a lot of what they did.
00:35:49.880 But I also think we forget how terrifying it was.
00:35:53.180 Do you, to cast your mind back to early March, I mean, I don't know about you, but, you know, I was bricking it.
00:35:59.000 Well, I mean, one of the things that...
00:36:00.340 Yeah, you were a lot more of a way back then.
00:36:01.520 Yeah, it's true, mate.
00:36:03.500 One of the things that come out was, like, how quickly things happen.
00:36:07.120 So the idea that's taken root in the public psyche is that the government, like, delayed for a long, long time before locking down.
00:36:13.900 The first mention of lockdown was in early March, something like 7th of March in Cabinet, and lockdown happened on the 13th of March.
00:36:20.000 So it's true that those delays might have caused, you know, like, more deaths and stuff.
00:36:24.000 But in terms of the amount of days, the perception is now that they were just sitting on their arses, Boris the trolley, you know.
00:36:31.380 I mean, there's been some funny stuff that's come out of this, let's be honest.
00:36:34.540 Calling it, calling it.
00:36:35.720 I'll definitely use the idea that a mate that changes his mind a lot is the trolley.
00:36:39.820 I mean, that's a good nickname.
00:36:42.040 Or the fact that a Prime Minister got brought down for having a cake.
00:36:45.660 Well, in the end, it was the Chris Pinscher guy, wasn't it?
00:36:51.160 Oh, it was Pinscher.
00:36:51.920 Yeah, because this is how we remember stuff.
00:36:53.660 We remember the cake.
00:36:54.460 I mean, let's be honest, that weakened him significantly.
00:36:57.380 But...
00:36:57.740 Yeah, sort of forgotten about Pinscher.
00:36:58.840 Yeah, yeah.
00:36:59.480 But the cake is much more...
00:37:00.620 Guys, is this not pathetic?
00:37:02.680 What?
00:37:03.060 With this conversation, it's so pathetic.
00:37:04.800 We're talking about Prime Minister being brought down by cake and all...
00:37:07.480 But Constance, it was a handsy bloke called Pinscher.
00:37:10.600 Let's never forget that that happened in British public life.
00:37:14.360 I mean, yeah, in a way, it dovetails with the inquiry, in a way,
00:37:18.180 is that the coverage of the inquiries tended to lead on the most frivolous stuff.
00:37:23.360 And I think that's a real disservice.
00:37:24.980 That's what I mean.
00:37:25.860 But anyway, speaking of British politics, I mentioned earlier,
00:37:28.980 the most upvoted story from our supporters for us to talk about
00:37:32.280 was one Nicola Sturgeon.
00:37:34.460 We actually have a clip of her talking about this issue.
00:37:37.460 We'll play that and we'll chat about it.
00:37:39.360 Let's get that up.
00:37:40.960 Trans women are women, but in the present context,
00:37:44.100 there is no automatic right for a trans woman.
00:37:46.280 So there are contexts where a trans woman is not a woman.
00:37:48.780 No, there is circumstances in which a trans woman
00:37:53.220 will be housed in the male prison estate.
00:37:56.340 Is there any context in which a woman born as a woman
00:37:58.480 will be housed in the male estate?
00:37:59.980 Look, we're talking here about trans women.
00:38:01.500 And I'm now asking about women born as women.
00:38:03.180 I don't think there are circumstances there, but...
00:38:05.980 So it's different for trans women?
00:38:07.040 Well, yes, and I'm not...
00:38:09.280 So they're not equal?
00:38:10.380 That is not...
00:38:11.160 There is a risk assessment process done for trans women
00:38:14.800 that takes account of the nature of the crime.
00:38:17.980 Clearly, significant concern arises out of sexual crime
00:38:22.440 and whether it's appropriate for them to be in a female prison
00:38:25.140 or a male prison.
00:38:25.900 Moving on to your legislation.
00:38:26.880 Should someone who has a history of committing sexual crimes against women
00:38:30.580 be allowed to get a gender recognition certificate?
00:38:33.520 Well, there are, of course, provisions in that legislation,
00:38:36.640 which is not yet in force,
00:38:38.780 whereby if somebody is going through the process
00:38:41.380 of getting a gender recognition certificate
00:38:43.520 and there are concerns about that,
00:38:46.040 there can be a pause.
00:38:49.380 Elliot, and do we not also have some articles
00:38:51.480 about what's happened with her later?
00:38:53.900 So she's resigned, obviously, and...
00:38:57.020 Whoa, whoa, slow down.
00:38:58.960 So her husband was then arrested
00:39:00.600 and their house was searched.
00:39:03.720 And they...
00:39:05.020 And also, the other thing that's happened lately
00:39:06.780 is the UK government banned...
00:39:09.300 Not banned.
00:39:10.360 The UK government prevented their act from going through
00:39:13.560 and it's been found that that is legal.
00:39:15.780 The fact that they've prevented it from going through.
00:39:17.780 That's right, yeah.
00:39:18.400 So I think the reason people wanted us to talk about it
00:39:21.340 is, A, we have a lot of TERFs that watch this.
00:39:23.040 Yeah.
00:39:23.360 Right, number one.
00:39:23.920 They love it.
00:39:24.580 They absolutely love a bit of the trans.
00:39:26.140 Birds love trans.
00:39:26.860 Birds love trans, mate.
00:39:28.040 It's a catchphrase of the show.
00:39:29.560 Geoff is cringing because he's the woke one
00:39:31.180 for the purpose of the world.
00:39:31.980 Yeah, can I say that?
00:39:32.860 It's very problematic.
00:39:34.040 Yeah.
00:39:34.640 What, saying birds?
00:39:35.360 Well, I also think that with the people
00:39:36.960 that watch your show,
00:39:37.860 given how the year's been politically,
00:39:40.100 the downfall of Nicola Sturgeon
00:39:41.160 was like the one bright spark for people.
00:39:43.100 Yeah.
00:39:43.580 That's the thing that kept me going
00:39:44.580 through the difficult months.
00:39:45.720 Well, the reason I think people care about it
00:39:47.580 is obviously, as we just saw,
00:39:49.140 it exposes the complete, you know,
00:39:51.960 moral inconsistency of everything that they're saying.
00:39:55.080 It doesn't make sense.
00:39:55.900 They're trapped in the faulty logic
00:39:57.560 of their own argument.
00:39:58.900 But also, there was then the possibility
00:40:00.840 that she might be arrested and prosecuted
00:40:03.300 and go to prison.
00:40:04.080 And that's where it really gets interesting
00:40:06.840 because I think a lot of people feel like
00:40:08.740 the reason these crazy ideas
00:40:10.760 are able to mature to the point
00:40:13.860 where they're represented at that political level
00:40:16.020 is it's luxury beliefs.
00:40:17.900 Rob Henderson, who we've had on the show,
00:40:19.320 talks about this,
00:40:19.960 which is it's people having ideas
00:40:21.880 whose consequences they're never affected by.
00:40:24.140 Yeah.
00:40:24.220 And suddenly, this woman who's pretending that
00:40:27.100 Isla Bryson, Isla Graham,
00:40:31.040 two-time rapist, absolutely male,
00:40:33.500 being sent to a female prison is okay.
00:40:36.160 This person might be about to go to prison themselves.
00:40:40.420 That's why she was in such a muddle.
00:40:41.940 I mean, but the thing is,
00:40:42.720 like, she talks about a risk assessment
00:40:43.960 for Isla Bryson, whose real name is Adam Graham,
00:40:46.600 double rapist.
00:40:47.720 They were housing him in the female estate
00:40:50.240 while they made that decision.
00:40:52.620 What risk assessment do you need?
00:40:54.580 Double rapist.
00:40:55.940 That answers your question, doesn't it?
00:40:58.100 And that was the thing about, you know,
00:40:59.700 when Westminster vetoed the gender reform bill,
00:41:03.800 and which they were right to do so,
00:41:04.980 we forget that there were all these amendments
00:41:06.960 tabled to that bill.
00:41:08.060 The SNP could have made this palatable, right?
00:41:10.800 There were amendments to protect single-sex spaces
00:41:12.480 in hospital wards,
00:41:14.320 single-sex spaces in prisons.
00:41:16.500 They were saying that prisoners
00:41:18.540 who were on trial for rape
00:41:21.520 couldn't suddenly apply for a GRC during the process.
00:41:25.220 All of that sensible stuff,
00:41:26.600 and they just said no.
00:41:27.980 So, in other words, the bill was faulty and wrong.
00:41:30.500 They knew it would be vetoed.
00:41:31.720 They were warned it would be vetoed,
00:41:32.920 and they did it anyway.
00:41:34.080 Hamza Yusuf took Westminster on,
00:41:37.040 knowing he would lose.
00:41:37.900 I mean, everyone said you're going to lose.
00:41:39.280 This has been an absolute shambles
00:41:41.280 from start to finish,
00:41:42.680 and so she deserved to get nailed on this.
00:41:45.700 And by the way, we're not talking about
00:41:47.060 the dodgy corruption and the accusations,
00:41:50.100 because they have very strict
00:41:51.580 contempt of court rules in Scotland.
00:41:54.360 So nobody's really been talking about it,
00:41:56.360 but it dwarfs Boris Johnson and the cake.
00:41:59.280 Like, this is a, like,
00:42:00.380 we should be talking about this a whole lot more,
00:42:02.580 but we probably can't.
00:42:04.100 Well, this idea that you can sort of,
00:42:06.180 like you're saying,
00:42:07.160 I mean, the fact that we,
00:42:09.040 for a moment,
00:42:09.820 a politician in Britain
00:42:10.960 was considering this idea
00:42:11.980 that you can have this
00:42:12.740 prison-onset gender dysphoria.
00:42:14.980 Like, you get to the courtroom,
00:42:16.120 and suddenly,
00:42:16.520 oh, I'm a bit trans.
00:42:17.680 Like, it's ridiculous.
00:42:18.960 No, but they are now.
00:42:19.560 I mean, the Scottish government
00:42:20.200 is now saying
00:42:20.820 what they will do
00:42:21.480 is that they will still house men
00:42:23.000 in the women's estate
00:42:23.940 if they identify as women.
00:42:26.180 They're saying,
00:42:26.880 they're doubling down on this,
00:42:28.620 but they're saying,
00:42:29.200 you know,
00:42:29.440 they're reducing the numbers,
00:42:31.020 but they say,
00:42:31.540 we'll organise sort of day out
00:42:33.000 so that the trans-identifying people
00:42:34.860 can go and associate with women
00:42:36.380 in the women's prison.
00:42:37.380 They are seriously considering this.
00:42:39.460 And I would have thought that you've,
00:42:41.040 look, it works, doesn't it,
00:42:42.080 to segregate prisons by sex.
00:42:44.100 It works.
00:42:45.120 It's, you know,
00:42:46.020 it's perfectly fine.
00:42:46.800 And why are they so obsessed
00:42:47.760 with the feelings of rapists?
00:42:50.080 Why are they worried about them?
00:42:51.660 Why aren't they worried
00:42:52.140 about the women in prison
00:42:52.880 who are among the most vulnerable
00:42:53.940 women in the country?
00:42:55.260 Surely they should be the priority, right?
00:42:57.860 I would have thought.
00:42:59.220 I think what was fascinating about it
00:43:01.100 was that when the UK government,
00:43:02.860 Westminster government intervened,
00:43:04.260 there was a majority support for that
00:43:06.000 among SNP voters.
00:43:07.340 Now, I would say that
00:43:08.280 if you're a nationalist party
00:43:09.360 and your voters are supporting
00:43:12.580 the intervention,
00:43:13.500 that you couldn't have got it more wrong.
00:43:15.120 And there's been this paradox
00:43:16.520 in the SNP's politics for a while.
00:43:18.820 Both, like, you know,
00:43:19.980 on one hand,
00:43:20.560 want to be out of the union
00:43:21.580 that is Britain and the UK,
00:43:23.640 but want to be part of the EU,
00:43:25.500 you know?
00:43:25.780 And there is also this sort of line
00:43:28.780 between their politics,
00:43:29.840 which is independence.
00:43:30.680 I don't want Scotland to leave the UK,
00:43:32.120 but I understand that sentiment.
00:43:33.520 And this progressive agenda
00:43:34.640 that's actually not necessarily,
00:43:36.600 because, you know,
00:43:36.920 nationalism in Scotland
00:43:37.680 used to be coming
00:43:38.380 from a more conservative place.
00:43:40.280 You're right that the voters,
00:43:41.560 they overwhelmingly didn't support.
00:43:44.100 Because we keep hearing this bill
00:43:46.680 had cross-party support.
00:43:48.340 75% of Scottish parliamentarians
00:43:51.420 supported it.
00:43:52.100 But the public really didn't.
00:43:53.640 So is it the case that the SNP,
00:43:54.840 because they've always relied
00:43:55.680 on this thing that, you know,
00:43:56.480 it's all about independence
00:43:57.420 and the support has been
00:43:59.160 because there's this passion,
00:44:00.240 this nationalistic fervour
00:44:01.720 in the country
00:44:02.660 that they could just endorse
00:44:03.780 any ridiculous policy
00:44:05.300 and bring these people along.
00:44:06.540 Almost like they're trolling them.
00:44:07.920 Do you know, it's like,
00:44:08.720 you know Sky Sports,
00:44:09.660 like Sky Sports,
00:44:10.300 a lot of people get it
00:44:11.160 because you go,
00:44:11.500 I want the football.
00:44:12.260 Yeah.
00:44:12.620 Football is independence.
00:44:13.740 And then they go Sky Sports.
00:44:14.800 So you get the badminton as well.
00:44:15.740 You go,
00:44:16.220 I'm not really interested
00:44:17.140 in the badminton.
00:44:17.840 I want the football.
00:44:18.820 The football is the independence.
00:44:20.140 I think they're pushing it.
00:44:21.100 I think they're taking the piss.
00:44:22.020 Like, what else can we introduce?
00:44:23.380 Why don't we introduce
00:44:23.940 a hate speech bill
00:44:24.800 that makes it illegal
00:44:25.700 to say things in your own home?
00:44:27.160 Let's do that.
00:44:28.080 Everyone will hate it.
00:44:28.660 It doesn't matter
00:44:28.960 because they're one independence.
00:44:29.580 In fairness,
00:44:30.500 in fairness,
00:44:31.140 I think if I'm not mistaken,
00:44:32.920 it was part of their manifesto
00:44:34.560 in 2019.
00:44:35.540 So they have sort of sought.
00:44:36.600 But again, it doesn't matter.
00:44:37.360 But whether or not,
00:44:38.620 how high that was up,
00:44:39.940 the average SNP voters
00:44:41.540 priority list,
00:44:43.360 we can only speculate.
00:44:45.080 And I do think that
00:44:45.680 there is a sort of symmetry
00:44:46.660 between the SNP
00:44:47.720 and the Tories in a way
00:44:48.660 is that if you're in power
00:44:49.860 long enough,
00:44:50.720 there's like a hubris
00:44:51.600 that creeps in
00:44:52.360 and there are blind spots.
00:44:53.640 There are things that you do
00:44:54.520 because you've been in power
00:44:55.540 so long,
00:44:56.420 you forget that you have
00:44:57.580 to refer to the people.
00:44:59.220 I mean, like, you know,
00:44:59.800 example,
00:45:00.240 where the Tories
00:45:00.820 started going wrong,
00:45:01.740 I know we'll get back
00:45:02.500 to the SNP,
00:45:03.060 but was actually
00:45:03.860 the Owen Paterson thing
00:45:04.800 was where one of their mates
00:45:05.980 got found guilty
00:45:06.720 of something
00:45:07.060 by the Privileges Committee
00:45:08.340 and they're like,
00:45:09.000 oh, well, we'll change the rules.
00:45:10.400 And people just went,
00:45:11.080 well, that's the worst stereotype
00:45:12.840 about you
00:45:13.500 is that there's different rules
00:45:14.420 for people
00:45:14.820 than there is for you.
00:45:16.020 And the SNP
00:45:16.660 have had a succession
00:45:17.940 of things now
00:45:18.920 that have almost run
00:45:19.920 in tandem
00:45:20.400 with the Tories
00:45:21.120 in Westminster.
00:45:21.960 And it's almost like
00:45:22.500 this subconscious thing
00:45:23.640 of maybe you don't want
00:45:24.260 to be in power anymore.
00:45:25.420 Isn't it good
00:45:25.760 that they're being punished
00:45:26.280 for it, though?
00:45:26.780 I mean, like,
00:45:27.340 even if you take it
00:45:28.100 just on the terms
00:45:29.100 of the cause
00:45:30.200 or the campaign
00:45:30.920 for Scottish independence,
00:45:32.380 the support now
00:45:33.140 is much, much lower.
00:45:34.440 Like, they were edging
00:45:35.260 towards that majority
00:45:36.480 they needed
00:45:37.120 that if they did
00:45:37.880 have a referendum
00:45:38.420 they would win.
00:45:39.400 If they held it now
00:45:40.080 they'd lose.
00:45:41.100 And that is because
00:45:41.900 of all these other
00:45:42.900 batshit policies
00:45:44.360 that they've advocated for
00:45:46.240 they've lost support
00:45:47.240 for the independence
00:45:47.820 thing as well.
00:45:48.640 Ultimately, that's
00:45:49.340 what's happened.
00:45:50.020 But it's, you know,
00:45:50.880 they say that about
00:45:51.780 TV series,
00:45:52.580 the term jump the shark
00:45:53.660 is when they do
00:45:54.540 something in the series
00:45:55.520 that becomes so ridiculous
00:45:56.520 and it becomes so unbelievable
00:45:58.240 that everybody goes like,
00:45:59.460 you know what,
00:45:59.820 I'm done
00:46:00.160 and I can't watch this anymore.
00:46:01.860 And the Isla Bryson case
00:46:03.800 for me was the moment
00:46:04.900 the SNP jumped
00:46:05.860 to the metaphorical shark.
00:46:07.200 If you remember back
00:46:08.240 during question time
00:46:09.500 where it was an SNP member
00:46:12.460 there was an SNP member
00:46:13.620 of Scottish Parliament
00:46:14.460 and they asked her
00:46:16.220 is Isla Bryson
00:46:18.460 a man or a woman?
00:46:20.400 And she went,
00:46:21.340 they're a rapist.
00:46:22.620 And I'm like,
00:46:22.840 no, no,
00:46:23.100 that's not what I'm asking.
00:46:23.920 I think it was actually,
00:46:25.740 I think,
00:46:26.200 who was it?
00:46:26.680 It was,
00:46:27.340 I can't remember
00:46:27.960 but then she was asked again.
00:46:29.200 Yeah.
00:46:30.560 Are they a man or a woman?
00:46:31.820 They're a rapist.
00:46:32.800 And all you heard
00:46:34.020 from the question time audience
00:46:35.740 was this huge audible groan.
00:46:38.500 Yeah.
00:46:38.840 And I was looking at that
00:46:39.940 and listening and going,
00:46:40.900 you're done.
00:46:41.480 It's over.
00:46:41.780 Well, I mean,
00:46:42.240 in that interview
00:46:42.880 that we saw with Sturgeon
00:46:44.080 there's that point
00:46:44.740 where the paradox of her thinking
00:46:46.060 almost dawns at her
00:46:46.940 and she laughs
00:46:47.520 because she realises
00:46:48.380 she's hit a point.
00:46:49.820 Now,
00:46:50.000 if she was essentially
00:46:51.260 consistent in her thinking
00:46:52.380 she should have just
00:46:53.060 doubled down
00:46:53.480 and said,
00:46:53.720 no,
00:46:54.360 that,
00:46:54.600 you know,
00:46:54.900 that Isla Bryson
00:46:55.460 is a woman
00:46:56.280 and therefore,
00:46:57.120 yeah,
00:46:57.380 beautiful woman
00:46:58.040 and absolutely
00:46:59.440 should be housed
00:47:00.400 in a female prison
00:47:01.620 but what she,
00:47:02.580 once you've acknowledged
00:47:03.360 that there are some exceptions
00:47:04.660 well now,
00:47:05.360 now we're just,
00:47:06.080 it's like that old Oscar Wildcard
00:47:07.060 now we're just discussing
00:47:08.000 the details.
00:47:08.580 We've established what you think
00:47:09.520 now we're just discussing
00:47:10.760 the finer details.
00:47:12.320 Isn't it scary to think though
00:47:13.660 that it was a kind of coincidence
00:47:15.600 that brought her down
00:47:16.900 insofar as that
00:47:17.800 Isla Bryson case
00:47:18.520 happened to happen
00:47:19.360 at the time
00:47:20.200 that they were pushing
00:47:20.700 through the bill
00:47:21.320 and it's that visual image,
00:47:23.060 you know,
00:47:23.220 of that guy
00:47:23.700 in that dodgy wig
00:47:24.580 with his leggings
00:47:25.660 that showed his male genitalia,
00:47:27.100 you know,
00:47:27.700 that image,
00:47:29.160 everyone's like,
00:47:29.780 what,
00:47:29.940 they were going to put him
00:47:30.720 in a women's prison?
00:47:32.160 That's what changed it.
00:47:33.500 It's like there are these moments,
00:47:34.540 there are these visual things
00:47:35.260 that happen
00:47:35.620 and if it weren't for that
00:47:36.920 I think they would have
00:47:37.600 got away with it.
00:47:38.560 We'll be back with our guests
00:47:40.260 in a minute
00:47:40.680 but first,
00:47:41.780 do you remember
00:47:42.260 the Canadian trucker protest
00:47:43.660 in 2022
00:47:44.700 where thousands of Canadians
00:47:46.360 came out to protest
00:47:47.460 COVID restrictions
00:47:48.360 and vaccine mandates?
00:47:49.780 Now,
00:47:50.360 these protests
00:47:51.240 lasted for weeks
00:47:52.360 and the people
00:47:53.340 out on the streets
00:47:54.260 needed funds
00:47:55.020 as any grassroots
00:47:56.420 protest would.
00:47:57.740 So people set up
00:47:58.760 online crowdfunding campaigns
00:48:00.660 which raised
00:48:01.480 millions of dollars.
00:48:02.860 Incredible!
00:48:04.020 But,
00:48:04.780 once the Canadian authorities
00:48:06.100 had started to criticise
00:48:07.500 the crowdfunding platforms
00:48:08.960 ramping up pressure
00:48:10.160 to close the campaigns,
00:48:11.780 it didn't take long
00:48:12.960 for the biggest
00:48:13.520 crowdfunding platform,
00:48:15.140 the one we've all heard of,
00:48:16.800 to completely capitulate
00:48:18.120 and shut the campaigns down.
00:48:20.100 Now,
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00:48:23.460 They stepped in
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00:48:26.060 and raised millions of dollars
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00:48:29.100 When they were criticised
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00:48:32.420 Give, Send, Go said
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00:49:03.240 And now,
00:49:04.160 back to the interview.
00:49:05.120 And Andrew,
00:49:06.300 you were just saying
00:49:06.880 there's an article
00:49:07.500 about a recent case.
00:49:08.740 You mentioned
00:49:09.180 that essentially
00:49:09.860 quite consistently
00:49:11.780 now in the UK media
00:49:13.060 when there's a case
00:49:14.180 about a trans woman,
00:49:16.220 a biological male
00:49:17.320 who's committed
00:49:17.840 some kind of horrific offence,
00:49:19.300 it's always covered
00:49:20.340 in a way
00:49:20.760 where you don't get told
00:49:21.740 that they're trans
00:49:22.360 until the very end
00:49:23.100 of the article.
00:49:23.860 Right.
00:49:24.060 So the people don't have
00:49:25.140 their bigoted thoughts
00:49:25.960 about that.
00:49:27.060 And now they don't
00:49:27.760 even do that.
00:49:28.660 Right.
00:49:29.000 What was this article?
00:49:30.140 So the recent article
00:49:31.260 is about Naomi O'Brien.
00:49:32.880 Elliot, can you pull
00:49:33.440 that up as well?
00:49:34.060 So Naomi O'Brien
00:49:35.480 was complicit
00:49:36.480 in the abuse
00:49:37.980 of a four-year-old child.
00:49:40.360 Naomi O'Brien
00:49:40.860 is a man.
00:49:41.840 The article on the BBC
00:49:42.840 about this
00:49:43.420 actually had the phrase
00:49:44.360 predatory woman
00:49:45.180 in the headline.
00:49:48.260 One of the police officers,
00:49:49.580 a spokesperson for the police,
00:49:50.720 for the Greater Manchester Police,
00:49:51.920 used the phrase
00:49:52.560 predatory female,
00:49:53.880 predatory woman.
00:49:55.140 Everyone's lying about this.
00:49:56.340 The police know
00:49:57.100 that this is a man.
00:49:58.260 The media know
00:49:59.060 that this is a man.
00:49:59.900 The BBC know
00:50:00.600 that this is a man.
00:50:01.320 Now, the BBC used to
00:50:02.520 slip in at the end
00:50:03.540 of an article.
00:50:04.440 They'd use she, her pronouns
00:50:06.000 for a male rapist or murderer.
00:50:07.840 So you're just not
00:50:08.600 talking about the headline here,
00:50:09.600 you're talking about
00:50:09.900 the whole article.
00:50:10.400 The whole article.
00:50:11.460 Not once in this BBC article
00:50:13.600 does it mention
00:50:14.300 that this is a man.
00:50:15.540 So it's she, her
00:50:16.520 all the way through.
00:50:17.380 There is no,
00:50:18.400 not even like,
00:50:19.280 this is someone who identifies
00:50:20.180 as a woman.
00:50:20.400 Not even transgender.
00:50:21.420 That word isn't even used.
00:50:22.340 It's just a woman.
00:50:23.960 Whereas if you take,
00:50:24.580 there was an article last year
00:50:25.720 which was about a New York
00:50:27.500 serial killer
00:50:28.800 who dismembered women
00:50:30.920 and, you know,
00:50:32.680 and you read that
00:50:33.480 and it was all about a woman.
00:50:34.240 You thought,
00:50:34.500 this doesn't sound like a woman.
00:50:35.680 And then in the last,
00:50:36.660 in the penultimate paragraph
00:50:37.760 it said,
00:50:38.120 who recently identifies
00:50:39.160 as a woman.
00:50:39.540 You're like,
00:50:39.840 oh yeah, it's a bloke.
00:50:40.580 Of course it's a bloke.
00:50:41.880 So they used to do that
00:50:43.140 and now the BBC
00:50:44.000 has moved into
00:50:44.900 just flat out
00:50:46.660 saying this is female,
00:50:48.120 this is a woman
00:50:48.660 with no,
00:50:49.560 and people are getting sick of it
00:50:50.840 because for two reasons,
00:50:52.060 I think.
00:50:52.740 Firstly, it's not true.
00:50:53.680 So, so it's,
00:50:55.360 it's journalistically
00:50:56.160 it's really deeply unprofessional
00:50:57.740 and unethical
00:50:58.740 but also because
00:50:59.680 they don't have to do this.
00:51:01.280 We've been under this delusion
00:51:02.720 that all these media outlets
00:51:04.080 that use she, her pronouns
00:51:05.300 for, for, for rapists
00:51:06.620 are obliged to do so
00:51:08.660 because of Ipso, say,
00:51:10.160 or because of Ofcom
00:51:11.240 and none of that is true.
00:51:12.660 There is no reason
00:51:14.200 why they do this.
00:51:15.160 It doesn't have to be,
00:51:15.960 even right-wing newspapers do it.
00:51:17.600 Right?
00:51:18.080 Why?
00:51:18.880 What, what,
00:51:19.360 so what do you think then,
00:51:20.880 and I'm mildly playing devil's advocate,
00:51:23.040 in that headline,
00:51:24.080 what, what would you prefer to see?
00:51:26.400 What do you think that,
00:51:27.620 you know,
00:51:28.200 from the BBC's point of view
00:51:29.300 of getting some balance
00:51:30.460 between things,
00:51:31.340 how should they,
00:51:32.260 how should that headline run?
00:51:33.780 Transgender predator
00:51:34.780 incited man to abuse child
00:51:36.420 would have done it.
00:51:37.440 Mm-hmm.
00:51:38.000 Or man.
00:51:39.840 So I'm also very uncomfortable
00:51:41.260 with the, with the freight,
00:51:42.600 I believe balance is important,
00:51:44.120 but in this instance,
00:51:45.540 we, we, we ought not to have balance
00:51:47.320 between truth and lies.
00:51:48.880 It is objectively not true
00:51:51.420 that this person is a woman.
00:51:53.000 Mm.
00:51:53.280 Right?
00:51:53.660 So I don't want the BBC
00:51:55.140 to present me a balanced position
00:51:57.060 on whether gravity is real or not.
00:51:59.380 Do you know what I mean?
00:51:59.860 No, all I mean is just the,
00:52:00.400 the situation that they,
00:52:01.680 because obviously if they were
00:52:02.660 to go down that road,
00:52:03.520 and there's a lot of really strong arguments
00:52:04.620 why, why they could
00:52:05.740 and indeed should,
00:52:06.940 is that they're then going to get
00:52:07.820 kicked back the other side.
00:52:08.700 That's what I'm wondering.
00:52:09.460 It's like, what is, what, yeah.
00:52:11.200 That, that crime stats
00:52:12.280 are being skewed.
00:52:13.260 Yeah.
00:52:13.420 If I was a woman,
00:52:14.440 don't get me wrong,
00:52:15.360 if I, if I was a woman,
00:52:16.660 I'd be,
00:52:16.920 Which you can be, Jeff.
00:52:17.920 Yeah.
00:52:18.160 I mean, what an incredible phrase
00:52:19.820 for me to use.
00:52:20.320 Yeah.
00:52:20.680 If I was a woman,
00:52:21.580 Jesus Christ,
00:52:22.360 I am as dim as I look.
00:52:24.180 All you need to say is
00:52:25.060 I am a woman.
00:52:25.760 I, if I was a woman.
00:52:26.680 As a woman.
00:52:27.320 If I was,
00:52:28.020 look, I'm the woke one.
00:52:28.860 I'm not going to tolerate this.
00:52:30.160 If I was,
00:52:30.880 like, one of the things
00:52:32.080 if you look at the relative merits
00:52:33.800 of the biological sexes, right,
00:52:35.780 is that you say
00:52:36.480 your men have qualities,
00:52:37.240 women have qualities.
00:52:37.740 One thing that we can generally say
00:52:39.160 is that we're not,
00:52:40.500 broadly speaking,
00:52:41.380 the violent ones.
00:52:42.060 We're not the ones that do
00:52:43.040 fucking depraved shit
00:52:44.440 all the time.
00:52:45.080 So, looking at it
00:52:46.280 from a woman's point of view,
00:52:47.500 to have that down
00:52:48.700 on your chart
00:52:49.620 and your score,
00:52:50.720 you can absolutely
00:52:51.460 understand the rage.
00:52:52.660 Yeah.
00:52:52.980 And they are,
00:52:53.840 this does result in misreporting.
00:52:55.500 We don't know
00:52:56.320 how many of these rapists
00:52:57.480 are male or female
00:52:58.100 because the,
00:52:58.980 so many police forces
00:52:59.760 are recording crime
00:53:00.520 by gender identity,
00:53:01.440 not by biological sex.
00:53:03.360 I mean,
00:53:03.820 there was a freedom
00:53:04.300 of information request
00:53:05.120 by a group called
00:53:06.300 Keep Prisons Single Sex.
00:53:07.880 And I think 24 odd
00:53:09.540 police forces responded
00:53:10.540 and I think 15 of them
00:53:12.020 said they report,
00:53:12.820 they recorded crime
00:53:13.800 by gender identity.
00:53:15.140 Two said that they did it
00:53:16.160 by biological sex,
00:53:17.500 which means that
00:53:18.700 even the police don't know,
00:53:20.260 right?
00:53:20.660 And again,
00:53:21.380 there is no legal requirement
00:53:23.180 for the police
00:53:24.120 to record gender identity
00:53:25.540 instead of biological sex.
00:53:27.220 It's not there.
00:53:28.160 So,
00:53:28.560 all of these people
00:53:29.120 are independently
00:53:29.780 making these decisions
00:53:30.720 that skew the crime stats
00:53:32.120 and that's really,
00:53:33.260 really bad for everyone
00:53:33.980 because it's,
00:53:34.500 the truth matters,
00:53:35.360 right?
00:53:35.540 I mean,
00:53:36.880 one of the things
00:53:37.320 I've been conscious of
00:53:38.200 over the last few years
00:53:39.380 is that we've lost
00:53:40.380 distinctions between,
00:53:41.720 now just trans
00:53:42.400 can mean anything
00:53:43.120 from somebody
00:53:43.760 that's fully,
00:53:44.720 you know,
00:53:45.040 transitioned their body
00:53:45.920 as far as they can
00:53:46.820 and have been living
00:53:47.640 as a woman
00:53:49.340 for so many years
00:53:50.840 and somebody
00:53:51.540 that's made
00:53:51.960 a very short-term decision.
00:53:54.020 And that's where
00:53:54.560 I do worry for people
00:53:56.460 that were living
00:53:57.340 essentially calm
00:53:58.300 and serenized
00:53:59.000 that had gone through that.
00:54:00.180 And broadly speaking,
00:54:00.960 I think if you go through that,
00:54:01.980 that is genuinely how you feel
00:54:03.540 if you literally
00:54:04.080 change your body.
00:54:04.980 Now I understand
00:54:05.520 some people would never
00:54:06.180 see that person
00:54:06.840 as fully a biological woman
00:54:08.520 and maybe the problem is
00:54:10.360 we've lost this distinction.
00:54:11.980 But that's the fault of Stonewall.
00:54:12.440 But just saying trans
00:54:14.260 actually covers
00:54:15.080 such a broad range
00:54:17.080 of experience within that,
00:54:18.420 it's really not...
00:54:19.280 But we didn't do that,
00:54:20.260 activists did that.
00:54:20.600 No, no, no.
00:54:21.320 I absolutely agree.
00:54:22.140 Stonewall said that
00:54:22.560 there's now a trans umbrella
00:54:23.720 which includes trans,
00:54:25.380 what you're talking about
00:54:25.880 is transsexuals
00:54:26.560 which is what most of us
00:54:27.300 thought of as trans
00:54:28.520 all those years ago.
00:54:29.400 People have gone through
00:54:30.080 the procedure, right?
00:54:30.860 Do you remember who won
00:54:31.760 Big Brother?
00:54:32.360 Yeah, Nadia.
00:54:33.760 Yeah, Nadia.
00:54:34.360 So everyone's like,
00:54:34.840 a trans woman
00:54:35.600 and it really wasn't an issue.
00:54:37.280 And then when you've got people
00:54:38.080 that were wanting to make
00:54:38.960 very short-term decisions
00:54:40.380 with very little commitment
00:54:42.100 in their private life
00:54:43.140 to that difference,
00:54:44.100 suddenly those got merged
00:54:45.240 into one thing.
00:54:46.220 And I think that's, again,
00:54:47.080 one of those moments
00:54:47.680 where the British public
00:54:48.440 who essentially,
00:54:49.440 I think broadly,
00:54:50.160 if someone has fully
00:54:50.860 transitioned their body,
00:54:51.840 would certainly relate
00:54:52.560 to that person as a woman
00:54:53.520 if that's what they chose,
00:54:54.840 suddenly felt,
00:54:55.460 well, there's a massive
00:54:56.060 fucking difference
00:54:56.680 between those two things.
00:54:57.560 But that's the problem.
00:54:58.460 So a lot of people
00:54:59.140 are very deeply supportive
00:55:00.180 of the kind of person
00:55:01.580 you describe
00:55:02.180 who needs to go through
00:55:03.620 that terribly expensive
00:55:04.640 and painful surgery
00:55:05.780 to feel comfortable
00:55:08.120 in their life.
00:55:09.160 Most people have sympathy
00:55:10.280 for those individuals
00:55:11.260 and they would consider them,
00:55:13.020 you know,
00:55:13.220 you'd want to support them.
00:55:15.340 But when you bring in
00:55:16.120 that same umbrella,
00:55:17.940 fetishists,
00:55:19.000 cross-dressers,
00:55:20.380 you know,
00:55:20.780 someone who just throws
00:55:21.580 a wig on
00:55:22.160 and does nothing else,
00:55:23.940 like the Green Party
00:55:25.000 candidate Melissa Poulton.
00:55:26.240 Now that image
00:55:27.360 of him just saying,
00:55:29.620 yeah,
00:55:29.980 anyone who criticises me
00:55:31.060 as a transphobe,
00:55:31.760 you just think,
00:55:32.700 it's,
00:55:33.340 because he's not even
00:55:33.820 a good wig.
00:55:34.940 Do you know what I mean?
00:55:35.320 So like,
00:55:35.720 you're bringing in
00:55:36.540 all these sort of people.
00:55:37.580 Does it come down
00:55:37.940 to wig quality?
00:55:38.640 I think it comes
00:55:39.680 down to wig quality.
00:55:40.440 Because then that
00:55:40.800 becomes a class issue,
00:55:42.360 rich people
00:55:42.900 who can afford
00:55:44.200 better wigs.
00:55:44.880 But it's not a transsexual.
00:55:46.240 Yeah.
00:55:47.200 That's a bloke
00:55:47.860 who's put a wig on.
00:55:48.840 That's not the same
00:55:49.540 as a transsexual, right?
00:55:50.820 But we've lost those,
00:55:51.960 and that's been
00:55:52.400 a deliberate tactic.
00:55:52.980 So what point then,
00:55:53.560 so I've had,
00:55:54.220 you know,
00:55:56.240 I've had people
00:55:57.000 who've got in contact
00:55:57.680 with me saying that,
00:55:58.500 you know,
00:55:58.720 there is a legal requirement
00:56:00.160 of time to,
00:56:01.180 where you do have to,
00:56:02.820 sort of,
00:56:03.120 as you're transitioning,
00:56:04.840 essentially just present
00:56:05.800 as a woman.
00:56:06.700 So is there a point
00:56:07.860 in that process?
00:56:09.020 Is it that when you've
00:56:10.180 fully changed your body,
00:56:11.960 what is the point
00:56:13.000 at which someone
00:56:13.600 can legitimately
00:56:14.460 at least sort of
00:56:16.100 represent for you
00:56:17.340 as that gender then?
00:56:18.420 And I realise
00:56:18.800 I'm getting very
00:56:19.280 conceptual here.
00:56:20.080 No, that's a good point.
00:56:20.740 And it is a problem.
00:56:22.060 Is there like a benchmark moment?
00:56:24.280 Because you're saying,
00:56:25.080 I think what you're saying
00:56:26.000 is somebody putting on,
00:56:27.120 you know,
00:56:27.380 on a wig,
00:56:27.920 like there's that very early part,
00:56:29.480 which a lot of the public
00:56:30.220 would have hesitations about.
00:56:31.660 But where is it along
00:56:32.540 the spectrum?
00:56:33.760 No, because you're talking
00:56:34.920 about early within a process
00:56:36.880 where someone is,
00:56:37.760 it's tending towards
00:56:39.160 transsexualism,
00:56:40.160 surgery.
00:56:41.020 The vast majority
00:56:41.880 of the people
00:56:42.300 who we now call trans
00:56:43.260 have no intention
00:56:44.020 of removing their genitalia
00:56:46.240 or male genitalia
00:56:47.040 or anything of that kind.
00:56:48.560 They just want to be treated
00:56:49.560 as women,
00:56:50.900 have access
00:56:51.860 to women's spaces,
00:56:53.120 even though they are
00:56:54.160 intact male bodies.
00:56:56.380 And that's something
00:56:57.460 that is very,
00:56:58.220 very dangerous.
00:56:59.520 And it's that conflation
00:57:00.900 that I think has caused
00:57:01.800 all the problems.
00:57:02.800 And it's also why
00:57:03.460 so many decent people
00:57:04.840 have gone on board
00:57:06.160 with really reactionary ideas
00:57:07.640 because they think
00:57:08.160 they're supporting
00:57:08.540 transsexuals,
00:57:09.500 but they're not.
00:57:10.940 That's what I think
00:57:11.520 has happened here.
00:57:12.580 And it goes back
00:57:13.400 to your original point
00:57:14.340 when we were talking
00:57:15.360 about antisemitism,
00:57:17.420 which is the power
00:57:18.040 of ideology.
00:57:18.860 Right.
00:57:19.260 Where you have a mantra
00:57:20.120 which is trans women
00:57:21.040 are women.
00:57:21.800 Well, what does that mean?
00:57:23.160 It means that anyone
00:57:23.760 can be a woman,
00:57:24.600 anyone can identify
00:57:25.440 as a woman,
00:57:26.040 which means you obliterate
00:57:27.120 the meaning of the term.
00:57:28.280 Right.
00:57:28.600 So if you take this year,
00:57:29.640 we had Jenny Watson
00:57:30.700 who had a speed dating
00:57:31.920 lesbian event.
00:57:33.500 There was a guy
00:57:34.800 who identified as female
00:57:35.940 who turned up,
00:57:36.860 was very handsy
00:57:37.820 with some of the lesbians
00:57:38.640 in the toilet.
00:57:39.700 And it got to the point
00:57:40.600 where Jenny Watson
00:57:41.440 had to say,
00:57:41.900 look, this is just
00:57:43.260 for biological women,
00:57:44.220 for lesbians.
00:57:45.980 And then the event
00:57:47.120 got shut down
00:57:47.760 because activists
00:57:48.540 went after the venue,
00:57:49.640 right?
00:57:50.040 So if you have a situation
00:57:51.120 where lesbians cannot gather
00:57:53.140 in a romantic context,
00:57:54.780 speed dating,
00:57:56.000 without men demanding entry,
00:57:58.060 to me,
00:57:59.240 that's really regressive.
00:58:00.560 And that's what's happening.
00:58:01.220 Well, it comes down to,
00:58:02.360 again,
00:58:02.780 the fair play limit.
00:58:03.500 I think most people
00:58:04.140 recognise that to be
00:58:05.320 an unreasonable development.
00:58:07.480 You know,
00:58:07.740 like that is a freedom
00:58:09.040 of association
00:58:09.820 more effectively.
00:58:11.000 But if you say
00:58:12.120 trans women or women
00:58:12.980 have to be treated
00:58:13.640 as women in law,
00:58:15.060 then actually it's right
00:58:15.860 to shut that down.
00:58:17.500 Andrew,
00:58:17.780 can I ask you something
00:58:18.560 that may sound
00:58:19.380 a little personal,
00:58:20.200 but you are someone
00:58:20.880 who has covered this issue
00:58:22.040 a hell of a lot.
00:58:23.240 And I know that
00:58:23.800 in private conversations
00:58:24.780 we've talked about
00:58:25.620 that this is something
00:58:27.060 that is particularly
00:58:28.520 affecting gay children.
00:58:30.740 Yeah.
00:58:31.100 And I know that
00:58:31.840 for a lot of lesbians
00:58:33.400 and gay men in particular,
00:58:34.760 it's a kind of
00:58:35.680 personal issue as well
00:58:37.020 because they sort of
00:58:37.820 look at it and go,
00:58:38.980 you know what,
00:58:39.860 if this had been happening
00:58:40.820 when I was a boy
00:58:41.900 or when I was a girl,
00:58:43.140 I might be one of these people.
00:58:44.180 Right.
00:58:44.540 I might have been
00:58:45.200 led down this path.
00:58:46.060 Well, that's why
00:58:46.480 so many gay activists
00:58:47.540 are coming out of retirement
00:58:48.660 to deal with this issue.
00:58:50.440 And that's why
00:58:51.040 the notion of an LGBTQIA plus
00:58:53.320 community is such a lie
00:58:55.000 because so many
00:58:56.320 of the principles
00:58:57.320 behind the TQ plus
00:58:58.620 aspect of that
00:58:59.400 are directly antithetical
00:59:01.100 to gay rights.
00:59:02.260 That's the problem.
00:59:02.780 So now we live in a time
00:59:03.860 where it's the most dangerous
00:59:05.360 time to be a gay kid,
00:59:06.720 basically,
00:59:07.280 because when I was at school,
00:59:08.940 you know,
00:59:09.780 for a start,
00:59:10.680 you wouldn't be out.
00:59:11.320 There was no such thing
00:59:12.340 as an out gay kid at school
00:59:13.980 at the time I was at school.
00:59:15.460 You would be beaten up.
00:59:16.480 You'd be bullied.
00:59:17.560 You'd have homophobic abuse
00:59:18.980 from the staff,
00:59:19.600 from the teachers.
00:59:20.600 But now if you're a gay kid,
00:59:22.560 you'll have figures of authority,
00:59:24.680 teachers,
00:59:25.720 stonewall mermaids,
00:59:27.000 implying that you might
00:59:27.720 be in the wrong body
00:59:28.360 and you need to be put
00:59:29.000 on a pathway to medicalisation.
00:59:30.980 Now, no one saw that coming.
00:59:32.120 No one saw coming the idea
00:59:33.360 that we'd be medicalising
00:59:35.060 gay kids in the name of progress.
00:59:36.820 That's such a bizarre
00:59:37.700 sort of situation.
00:59:38.400 And because between 80 and 90%
00:59:40.840 of adolescents referred
00:59:41.660 to the Tavistock Clinic
00:59:42.600 were same-sex attracted,
00:59:44.720 we know that this overwhelmingly
00:59:46.620 is about fixing gay kids,
00:59:48.760 heterosexualising gay kids.
00:59:50.240 Whether that is conscious or not,
00:59:51.940 that's the impact of this.
00:59:53.080 Do you think,
00:59:53.800 would it be conscious though?
00:59:55.260 It feels unlikely.
00:59:57.780 That might be the net effect of it.
00:59:59.440 Well, why then did so many
01:00:00.600 whistleblowers at the Tavistock
01:00:01.820 say there was homophobia endemic
01:00:03.960 in a lot of the referrals?
01:00:05.280 Why did they have a dark joke?
01:00:06.400 Why did they have the joke,
01:00:07.600 soon there'll be no gay kids left?
01:00:09.100 Why did they have that?
01:00:10.360 Well, I'm just,
01:00:11.420 it's very hard for someone like me,
01:00:13.280 you know,
01:00:13.640 I'm looking into various
01:00:15.000 different communities
01:00:15.660 I don't fully understand,
01:00:17.080 but how a sort of
01:00:18.860 left-wing progressive organisation
01:00:20.060 I do think have got it wrong
01:00:21.700 on so many things,
01:00:22.780 but would become homophobic.
01:00:24.920 How did that happen?
01:00:25.740 Yeah, I really want to know
01:00:27.120 the answer to that question.
01:00:28.360 Did it happen?
01:00:29.500 No, but it did happen,
01:00:30.560 but I think what,
01:00:31.480 you know,
01:00:32.440 groups like Stonewall and Mermaids,
01:00:33.720 as far as I'm concerned,
01:00:34.500 represent the biggest threat
01:00:35.440 to gay rights at the moment,
01:00:36.480 they are hostile to gay rights,
01:00:38.700 but they don't say they are,
01:00:39.700 I agree,
01:00:40.360 and I don't even think
01:00:41.060 they think they are.
01:00:41.840 I think you're right.
01:00:42.500 I think they have actually
01:00:44.160 bought into this ideology
01:00:45.600 to such a degree
01:00:46.340 that they are advocating
01:00:47.760 and promoting
01:00:48.680 anti-gay ideas
01:00:50.940 in the name of being pro-gay.
01:00:52.780 I think they are.
01:00:53.560 I think you're right.
01:00:54.080 I think it is a complete,
01:00:56.120 you know,
01:00:57.140 and I feel that that's why
01:00:58.780 a lot of gay people
01:00:59.540 are frustrated
01:01:00.360 when they see that
01:01:01.040 progress pride flag
01:01:03.040 spattered everywhere.
01:01:03.840 A load of gay people think
01:01:04.780 that basically
01:01:05.700 if that's outside a pub,
01:01:06.800 they feel they won't go in
01:01:07.780 because they might get attacked,
01:01:08.920 verbally abused,
01:01:09.660 whatever.
01:01:10.400 And it used to be the case
01:01:11.220 that the rainbow flag was like,
01:01:12.200 well,
01:01:12.320 I know I can go in there
01:01:13.320 and I can hold my boyfriend's hand
01:01:15.040 and I won't get trouble for it.
01:01:16.720 If I see the progress pride flag now,
01:01:18.460 I do not go into that bar.
01:01:20.320 I'm worried someone might
01:01:21.340 start verbally abusing me,
01:01:22.780 right?
01:01:23.380 But just for being gay
01:01:24.560 or for having a view
01:01:25.560 on same-sex biological...
01:01:27.840 But being same-sex attracted
01:01:29.720 is a counter to this ideology
01:01:32.760 in and of itself
01:01:33.660 because it implies
01:01:34.760 that there's only two sexes.
01:01:36.080 Well,
01:01:36.180 they say being same-sex attracted
01:01:37.440 is a dog whistle.
01:01:38.440 Right.
01:01:38.780 So Stonewall on its website
01:01:41.100 and its promotional materials
01:01:42.020 changed the definition
01:01:43.200 of homosexual
01:01:43.880 to mean same-gender attracted.
01:01:46.480 Activists say things like
01:01:47.520 genital preferences
01:01:48.340 are transphobic.
01:01:49.160 Not all activists,
01:01:50.120 but some do.
01:01:51.560 They have this idea
01:01:52.780 that you...
01:01:53.480 That's why Grindr now
01:01:54.440 is full of young women
01:01:55.520 who've been led to believe
01:01:56.640 that they're men.
01:01:57.680 That's why in Australia
01:01:59.540 it's illegal for lesbians
01:02:00.620 to gather now
01:02:01.340 because you have to admit men.
01:02:03.120 So...
01:02:03.940 But gay people aren't attracted
01:02:05.180 to the way
01:02:06.600 that you perceive yourself.
01:02:08.240 Like,
01:02:08.620 gay men aren't attracted
01:02:09.740 to people who think they're men.
01:02:10.700 They're attracted to men.
01:02:11.800 And lesbians aren't attracted
01:02:12.960 to people with penises
01:02:13.740 because they're lesbians.
01:02:15.260 This is the thing.
01:02:16.220 There's this thing
01:02:16.720 called homosexuality.
01:02:18.040 This is blowing my mind.
01:02:18.920 It's an education and...
01:02:20.140 Which of course,
01:02:21.140 the title of this episode
01:02:22.140 would be
01:02:22.440 The Red Pilling of Jeff North.
01:02:23.760 Yeah.
01:02:24.140 There's just so much
01:02:25.640 to take on here.
01:02:26.940 Think about homosexuality.
01:02:28.600 Gay rights
01:02:29.260 has been secured
01:02:30.440 on the understanding
01:02:31.380 that there are people
01:02:31.900 who are innately attracted
01:02:33.140 to members of their own sex.
01:02:34.720 But now,
01:02:35.820 those people are being
01:02:36.420 shamed for it.
01:02:37.620 Wait,
01:02:37.880 you don't include
01:02:38.700 people with penises
01:02:39.660 in your dating pool,
01:02:40.720 lesbian?
01:02:41.280 Then you are
01:02:42.020 evil bigot.
01:02:43.220 So this is the question
01:02:44.100 maybe I'm asking
01:02:44.780 is I think
01:02:45.660 that that view
01:02:46.480 that you're expressing
01:02:47.600 absolutely exists
01:02:48.720 is how prevalent, right?
01:02:50.120 If we get outside
01:02:50.780 of social media
01:02:51.780 or even more
01:02:52.640 metropolitan type centres,
01:02:53.720 if you go to
01:02:54.400 an old gay pub
01:02:55.620 in Wolverhampton,
01:02:56.780 you know,
01:02:57.120 are we saying...
01:02:57.920 Is there one?
01:02:58.760 Do you know what?
01:02:59.740 There absolutely is.
01:03:01.700 I did a gig there
01:03:02.740 in 2005
01:03:04.120 and it was...
01:03:07.500 It was terrible.
01:03:08.300 I'm not sure
01:03:08.740 I was the right booking
01:03:09.440 is what I would say.
01:03:11.780 That's what I'm wondering.
01:03:12.820 I'm wondering if
01:03:13.680 maybe those voices
01:03:15.300 that you're talking about
01:03:16.200 have disproportionate
01:03:17.320 volume within the debate.
01:03:19.060 But I wonder
01:03:19.880 how broad that is.
01:03:20.620 But not just the debate.
01:03:21.720 They also have
01:03:22.180 a disproportionate impact
01:03:23.520 on government policy,
01:03:24.800 police behaviour.
01:03:25.740 They're in the College
01:03:26.360 of Policing.
01:03:27.020 They're in the NHS
01:03:27.920 giving trainings, etc.
01:03:29.820 That's the issue.
01:03:30.540 It's not about,
01:03:31.280 you know,
01:03:31.660 Andrew spent too much time
01:03:32.760 on social media.
01:03:33.560 It's about the fact
01:03:34.340 that this is having
01:03:35.100 an impact on real people.
01:03:36.780 Yeah, that's it.
01:03:37.180 I mean,
01:03:37.360 it wouldn't matter so much
01:03:38.500 if it wasn't impacting people.
01:03:39.840 All these kids
01:03:40.720 who've gone through now,
01:03:41.880 you know,
01:03:42.740 puberty blockers
01:03:43.380 which almost always lead
01:03:44.600 to cross-sex hormones
01:03:45.400 and sometimes to surgery
01:03:46.680 that cannot be undone.
01:03:47.580 I've met detransitioners.
01:03:49.200 I met a gay guy
01:03:49.960 who's just an effeminate gay guy
01:03:51.860 and he doesn't have genitals anymore
01:03:53.260 because he was encouraged
01:03:54.280 to go down this path.
01:03:55.420 And it does sort of matter,
01:03:56.820 I think.
01:03:57.160 Well, it matters.
01:03:58.200 It does.
01:03:58.580 Hugely, right?
01:03:59.520 Jeff's looking at his watch.
01:04:00.640 No, no, I wasn't looking at his watch.
01:04:02.000 I was just about to make
01:04:03.220 a really flippant joke
01:04:04.300 and then you said something
01:04:05.000 very serious.
01:04:06.560 And I just looked down
01:04:07.860 because I thought,
01:04:08.320 I am so glad
01:04:09.140 I didn't make that joke just then.
01:04:10.500 Can I make the point though
01:04:11.520 about, look,
01:04:12.480 in Iran,
01:04:13.300 the government funds
01:04:14.340 sex changes
01:04:15.340 because they hate,
01:04:16.320 they hang gay people
01:04:17.520 from cranes.
01:04:18.380 Or are they just really
01:04:19.220 progressive, Andrew?
01:04:19.980 Well, you say that
01:04:20.920 but when the Pakistan government
01:04:22.600 started doing a similar thing
01:04:23.460 which they've since stopped doing,
01:04:25.180 Pink News put out a video
01:04:27.000 saying,
01:04:27.500 oh, great,
01:04:28.280 Pakistan has said yes
01:04:29.100 to trans rights.
01:04:30.340 No, the Pakistan government
01:04:31.460 was funding sex changes
01:04:32.640 because they kill gay people.
01:04:34.080 I am genuinely
01:04:35.180 blown away by this.
01:04:37.840 See, this is why
01:04:38.780 you stay away from this issue
01:04:39.880 because if you listen
01:04:41.020 to enough people talk about it,
01:04:42.340 you eventually come out
01:04:43.400 very hard-line on it.
01:04:45.080 No, I mean,
01:04:45.760 look, I'm getting
01:04:46.540 what you said
01:04:47.340 but it's when Pink News
01:04:48.620 were hyping the Pakistan government.
01:04:50.320 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:04:50.900 Well, okay, okay.
01:04:52.900 So, speaking of progress,
01:04:54.580 as we wrap up
01:04:55.360 this particular segment
01:04:57.160 of the conversation,
01:04:58.060 Andrew,
01:04:58.320 do you feel
01:04:59.020 that with some of the things
01:05:01.080 we have seen this year
01:05:02.240 in this country,
01:05:03.100 we actually have made progress
01:05:04.800 in terms of the pushback
01:05:06.040 against this?
01:05:06.700 We saw the Tavistock Clinic,
01:05:08.680 the Cass Report,
01:05:09.980 we've seen all sorts
01:05:11.160 of other things happening
01:05:12.040 where you go,
01:05:12.900 okay, some of the madness
01:05:13.880 is being dialed back
01:05:14.820 a little bit.
01:05:15.060 I think that's absolutely right
01:05:15.800 and I think it's because
01:05:16.360 of what Jeff was saying
01:05:17.120 is that most people
01:05:18.180 don't know it's going on,
01:05:19.980 right?
01:05:20.540 Most people just don't realise
01:05:21.920 they thought that the Tavistock
01:05:23.460 was just helping kids
01:05:24.580 who were suffering
01:05:25.040 from gender dysphoria.
01:05:26.360 They didn't realise
01:05:27.000 that it was, you know,
01:05:28.100 what, 35% of referrals
01:05:29.300 were autistic
01:05:29.920 as compared to 2%
01:05:30.900 of the population.
01:05:31.900 They had all sorts
01:05:32.640 of other co-morbidity,
01:05:33.740 co-issues going on
01:05:34.920 that all of this
01:05:36.120 is coming out now.
01:05:37.160 Kemi Badenoch
01:05:37.920 has mentioned this
01:05:39.180 in Parliament,
01:05:39.800 has talked about
01:05:40.480 transing away the gay,
01:05:42.460 has talked about people
01:05:43.400 who are using
01:05:43.860 the ideology of gender identity
01:05:45.700 and are effectively
01:05:46.440 heterosexualising gay kids.
01:05:48.400 It's a real threat
01:05:49.000 to gay people.
01:05:49.580 Now that that debate
01:05:50.380 is open, you know,
01:05:51.720 I was talking to Dennis Kavanaugh
01:05:52.680 about this the other day.
01:05:53.560 He's the director
01:05:54.540 of the Gay Men's Network
01:05:55.340 and he was saying
01:05:56.220 like the stuff
01:05:56.740 that Kemi Badenoch
01:05:57.460 was saying in Parliament
01:05:58.300 would have got a ban
01:05:59.300 from social media
01:06:00.060 a few years ago
01:06:00.880 but now it's out in the open.
01:06:02.820 Stonewall always had
01:06:03.600 this idea of no debate.
01:06:04.660 That was their official policy.
01:06:05.760 We don't debate this.
01:06:07.120 You know,
01:06:07.980 because their ideas
01:06:08.760 were so extreme.
01:06:09.520 Yeah, I saw one of their guys
01:06:10.060 on the news
01:06:10.380 literally saying
01:06:11.020 I can't talk about this
01:06:12.140 because it's so obvious.
01:06:13.380 Right.
01:06:13.720 It's a settled issue.
01:06:15.300 Evidently not.
01:06:17.120 So what's happened
01:06:18.160 is you have a minority
01:06:19.100 of activists
01:06:19.900 with incredible power
01:06:20.940 in society
01:06:21.580 who are treating
01:06:22.700 their own extremist views
01:06:24.540 and presenting them
01:06:25.400 as though we've reached
01:06:26.220 an established consensus
01:06:27.220 in society
01:06:27.940 and it's not true
01:06:28.940 and now what's happening
01:06:29.960 is people are waking up to it.
01:06:31.160 More and more people
01:06:31.640 are seeing
01:06:32.380 the impact
01:06:33.340 of gender identity ideology
01:06:34.540 in schools
01:06:35.600 and on their kids
01:06:37.880 and to gay people
01:06:39.560 and to women especially
01:06:41.060 and they're pushing back
01:06:42.860 against it.
01:06:43.340 So I think
01:06:43.720 it's all
01:06:45.380 it's going to end.
01:06:46.380 I mean honestly
01:06:47.060 I'm feeling very optimistic.
01:06:48.720 I think too many people
01:06:49.720 know about it now.
01:06:51.300 You know
01:06:51.480 it's going to take a long time
01:06:52.480 to unpick it
01:06:53.300 like the Welsh government
01:06:54.220 is basically putting out
01:06:55.640 gender identity propaganda
01:06:56.800 in all of their
01:06:57.820 teaching materials
01:06:59.120 and stuff like that.
01:06:59.740 They're probably doing
01:07:01.180 something that's not
01:07:02.080 actually legal
01:07:02.980 because the
01:07:03.560 Education Act
01:07:05.920 actually forbids
01:07:06.660 ideological and political
01:07:08.880 teaching in schools
01:07:09.540 but so we'll get there
01:07:11.460 eventually I think
01:07:12.400 and we'll get back
01:07:12.920 to the idea of
01:07:13.580 liberal values
01:07:14.980 and gay rights
01:07:16.600 and women's rights
01:07:17.260 and free speech
01:07:18.740 and all of these things
01:07:19.400 that we had sort of
01:07:20.180 agreed on at one point.
01:07:21.520 I'm really optimistic.
01:07:22.640 I think too many
01:07:23.320 crazy things have happened.
01:07:25.560 I think it's images
01:07:26.300 like Leah Thomas
01:07:27.340 on the podium
01:07:27.980 towering over
01:07:29.540 those women.
01:07:30.920 I think every time
01:07:31.920 something like that happens
01:07:32.740 people think
01:07:33.160 what?
01:07:33.720 This is actually happening?
01:07:35.020 Did you know that
01:07:35.660 male rapists were being
01:07:36.580 housed in female prisons?
01:07:38.100 Probably not.
01:07:39.620 I missed a bit
01:07:41.400 when being cool
01:07:42.280 with gay people
01:07:43.000 was cool
01:07:43.600 like you could say
01:07:44.520 that and feel
01:07:45.020 really liberal
01:07:45.760 you know.
01:07:47.000 It's a brief window.
01:07:48.380 Yeah.
01:07:48.740 My son's
01:07:49.660 you know
01:07:50.140 his godparents
01:07:50.840 two married gay men
01:07:51.740 I used to love
01:07:52.320 throwing that in the face
01:07:53.160 of people
01:07:53.460 that would think
01:07:54.300 like
01:07:54.640 You get kudos for that
01:07:55.820 I remember
01:07:56.640 back in the Edinburgh Fringe
01:07:57.860 years ago
01:07:58.440 I used to say that
01:07:59.260 and everyone went silent
01:08:00.020 and I was like
01:08:00.440 yeah
01:08:00.720 I out-liberaled you
01:08:02.320 but now it's like
01:08:03.740 being fine with gays
01:08:05.900 is very last year
01:08:07.040 Well gays are the problem now
01:08:08.640 Yeah yeah
01:08:09.200 That's the thing
01:08:10.020 Except your non-binary
01:08:11.540 overlords Jeff
01:08:12.400 Don't get rid of gays
01:08:13.660 Love gays
01:08:14.120 Jeff
01:08:15.400 Are you as optimistic
01:08:17.100 as Andrew
01:08:17.820 about the pushback?
01:08:19.820 I think there are
01:08:20.220 a lot of debates
01:08:20.880 actually where the pendulum
01:08:21.860 goes one way
01:08:22.620 and you think
01:08:23.120 and then it comes back
01:08:24.800 the other way
01:08:25.340 I think ultimately
01:08:26.260 the debate
01:08:26.940 that has the most chance
01:08:28.440 of resonating
01:08:29.020 with reasonable members
01:08:30.000 of the public
01:08:30.420 will be the one
01:08:31.020 that triumphs in the long run
01:08:32.460 Yeah
01:08:32.700 The interesting thing to me
01:08:34.440 is I'm temperamentally
01:08:35.880 very tempted
01:08:36.500 to agree with Andrew
01:08:37.440 but then I have
01:08:39.040 how long have you been
01:08:39.600 doing the show?
01:08:40.120 Six years?
01:08:40.600 And you've been spending
01:08:41.500 a lot of time with me
01:08:42.240 and I've been spending
01:08:43.160 a lot of time
01:08:43.740 with the depressive
01:08:44.360 so I look at
01:08:46.540 the last six years
01:08:47.320 I sort of think
01:08:48.140 we probably would have
01:08:48.940 said that at every point
01:08:50.240 every year
01:08:51.260 around Christmas
01:08:52.420 in every point
01:08:53.680 in the last six years
01:08:54.580 and so far
01:08:55.280 it just gets worse
01:08:56.280 We have seen
01:08:57.400 a lot of
01:08:58.280 actual progress
01:08:59.380 I mean Hannah Barnes
01:09:00.380 who's a Newsnight editor
01:09:02.060 she had a brilliant book
01:09:03.500 about this
01:09:04.060 and it really got resonance
01:09:05.920 I think you're seeing
01:09:06.960 Stonewall and Mermaids
01:09:08.600 being pulled out
01:09:09.560 of the institutions
01:09:10.460 where they were
01:09:11.040 giving advice
01:09:11.620 all of these things
01:09:12.600 are to be welcomed
01:09:13.280 but broadly
01:09:15.340 I'm torn
01:09:16.700 honestly
01:09:17.240 But because we now
01:09:18.140 can have the debate
01:09:18.980 because the era
01:09:19.760 of no debate
01:09:20.440 is over
01:09:21.120 once you have
01:09:22.940 this debate
01:09:23.480 it's fairly clear
01:09:24.820 which side
01:09:25.480 the public
01:09:26.020 are going to fall on
01:09:26.800 Yeah
01:09:27.000 The reason why
01:09:28.280 Stonewall always said
01:09:29.480 no debate
01:09:30.040 is because this stuff
01:09:31.120 doesn't withstand
01:09:32.200 that kind of scrutiny
01:09:33.200 What do you think mate?
01:09:34.480 I actually
01:09:34.920 I'm in agreement
01:09:35.660 with Andrew
01:09:36.180 I think that
01:09:37.060 What five years
01:09:37.820 do you think?
01:09:38.360 Give it five years
01:09:38.900 and it'll be gone?
01:09:39.480 Well I think
01:09:40.160 this is the start
01:09:41.060 because you've got
01:09:42.360 to hit a moment
01:09:43.500 where like I said
01:09:45.220 that jump the shark
01:09:46.240 moment
01:09:46.580 and for me
01:09:47.340 it was
01:09:47.940 Isla Bryson
01:09:49.200 with a face tattoo
01:09:50.820 two time male rapist
01:09:52.520 in a woman's prison
01:09:53.480 where people are like
01:09:54.240 what?
01:09:54.580 and I think more and more
01:09:56.200 and I think the thing
01:09:57.380 that we're not talking about
01:09:58.740 but that's actually
01:09:59.460 really going to play a part
01:10:00.380 in all of this collapsing
01:10:01.760 is the fact that
01:10:02.960 mainstream media
01:10:04.380 they're hemorrhaging viewers
01:10:06.600 they're hemorrhaging influence
01:10:08.560 if you look at Channel 4
01:10:10.100 which does all this
01:10:11.020 kind of stuff
01:10:12.080 on the last leg
01:10:12.880 the last leg
01:10:13.880 I was talking to a producer
01:10:15.460 I think it was a Channel 4
01:10:16.600 comedy producer
01:10:17.320 who was basically saying to me
01:10:18.980 look we're hemorrhaging viewers
01:10:20.280 no one's watching this stuff anymore
01:10:21.800 they're putting out
01:10:22.780 all of this content
01:10:23.680 it's crap
01:10:24.840 it's just lecturing people
01:10:26.600 and nobody's watching it
01:10:28.260 and I think
01:10:29.200 the more and more
01:10:29.980 that happens
01:10:30.640 the less powerful
01:10:31.760 and less prevalent
01:10:32.360 this is going to be
01:10:33.080 Is this really true Jeff?
01:10:34.340 because you're someone
01:10:35.120 who does all the big shows
01:10:36.760 comedy shows on TV
01:10:37.860 I did most of them once
01:10:39.700 But you know
01:10:41.400 you're very much
01:10:42.100 in that kind of environment
01:10:43.460 I'm a double agent
01:10:44.680 let's call it what it is
01:10:45.840 You play both sides
01:10:46.620 You're bisexual
01:10:48.480 Or non-binary
01:10:49.740 You're non-binary
01:10:50.620 Is it
01:10:51.960 because I think
01:10:52.920 there's a danger
01:10:53.960 of people like us
01:10:54.760 particularly the two of us
01:10:55.800 and also to some extent Andrew
01:10:57.140 where you know
01:10:58.220 we spend a lot of time
01:10:59.100 in this kind of online space
01:11:00.660 it's very tempting
01:11:02.020 for us to tell ourselves
01:11:03.180 the story
01:11:03.740 oh look at the mainstream media
01:11:05.020 they're crumbling
01:11:05.660 their ratings
01:11:06.260 look at they cancelled
01:11:07.140 Mock the Week
01:11:07.660 oh look they cancelled this
01:11:08.740 the mass report's
01:11:09.780 no longer there
01:11:10.420 that you used to be on
01:11:11.900 I used to work with you on
01:11:12.940 etc
01:11:13.540 Is it true?
01:11:16.280 I think that
01:11:17.000 if
01:11:17.600 the last leg
01:11:18.960 still does well
01:11:20.060 in relative terms
01:11:21.100 you know
01:11:21.500 so if it's still on
01:11:23.120 it's probably because
01:11:23.900 it's doing well
01:11:24.420 particularly on a
01:11:25.120 on a commercial channel
01:11:26.580 so I think that
01:11:27.820 there's a problem
01:11:28.480 I mean such a big problem
01:11:29.760 for terrestrial television
01:11:30.820 generally
01:11:31.260 if you look at the drop
01:11:32.620 in ratings
01:11:33.400 I don't know what
01:11:34.400 last leg's ratings are
01:11:35.300 but whatever it might have dropped
01:11:36.840 it'll probably be in line
01:11:37.820 with most of it
01:11:38.640 so you know
01:11:39.900 the problem for comedy
01:11:41.420 generally
01:11:42.220 if that's kind of
01:11:43.280 where this discussion's going
01:11:44.320 is just at the time
01:11:46.640 right
01:11:46.860 maybe about 2016
01:11:47.920 2017
01:11:48.400 where streamers
01:11:50.240 started to have influence
01:11:51.240 where YouTube
01:11:52.620 people could basically
01:11:53.700 go and get the comedy
01:11:54.760 that they want
01:11:55.320 whether it's edgy comedy
01:11:56.340 one-liners
01:11:57.080 introspective
01:11:57.820 they could basically
01:11:58.860 go and get it
01:11:59.580 just at that point
01:12:00.840 on terrestrial television
01:12:01.780 it became afraid
01:12:03.020 of its own shadow
01:12:03.880 a little bit
01:12:04.740 you know
01:12:05.040 and it became risk averse
01:12:06.440 and it had all sorts of things
01:12:07.420 that it had to attend to
01:12:08.500 which got in the way
01:12:09.480 of simply going
01:12:10.160 is this funny
01:12:11.060 is this going to appeal
01:12:12.220 to a broad audience
01:12:13.200 so it's been kind of
01:12:14.540 you know
01:12:14.820 it's been kind of hampered
01:12:16.200 in a big way
01:12:18.320 you know
01:12:18.940 because like if you go
01:12:19.700 comedy's so visceral
01:12:20.820 right
01:12:21.160 you watch something
01:12:21.920 you go
01:12:22.200 that guy's funny
01:12:23.040 or that woman's funny
01:12:23.660 I'm going to go
01:12:24.000 and see him on tour
01:12:24.460 it occurs within you
01:12:25.840 it's a physical thing
01:12:27.300 so you can't put in
01:12:28.260 a laugh track
01:12:28.840 or do any of that
01:12:30.100 and if you're not satisfied
01:12:31.740 right
01:12:32.380 because it's so visceral
01:12:33.700 you'll go
01:12:34.260 where else can I get
01:12:35.080 that feeling
01:12:35.520 because laughing
01:12:36.200 is a great feeling
01:12:37.320 that's exactly
01:12:38.080 what they negated
01:12:39.020 wasn't it
01:12:39.320 what the activists did
01:12:40.280 to comedy
01:12:40.720 insofar as they were
01:12:41.480 expecting audiences
01:12:42.220 to sit there
01:12:43.160 hear the joke
01:12:43.980 assess whether it was
01:12:44.960 morally pure
01:12:45.620 and then laugh
01:12:46.560 to endorse the point
01:12:47.680 being made
01:12:48.220 and that's not how
01:12:49.100 laughter works
01:12:49.680 I mean I think
01:12:50.280 that there is now
01:12:51.100 it's going back a bit
01:12:52.620 you know
01:12:52.920 like when I have meetings
01:12:53.900 and stuff
01:12:54.280 and I speak to people
01:12:55.260 you know
01:12:55.900 if for example
01:12:56.660 Channel 4 last year
01:12:58.120 they backed Jimmy Carr
01:12:59.220 after that joke
01:13:00.140 from his Netflix special
01:13:01.180 you know
01:13:01.760 we see him
01:13:02.100 Netflix stand in their ground
01:13:03.420 the meetings
01:13:04.240 that I'm having
01:13:04.740 with people at the BBC
01:13:05.780 they're like
01:13:06.260 we want it to have Tifa
01:13:07.220 we want it
01:13:07.660 it just
01:13:08.200 it feels like
01:13:08.780 there was some lost years
01:13:09.860 in there somewhere
01:13:11.000 I mean I would say
01:13:11.980 that one place
01:13:12.580 that's genuinely
01:13:13.260 you know
01:13:13.720 that talk
01:13:14.380 that Jim
01:13:14.740 Jim Davies
01:13:16.760 this will go down well
01:13:19.380 Tim Davies
01:13:20.100 when he said about
01:13:22.000 having diversity of opinion
01:13:23.280 which is not a controversial
01:13:24.380 view to anybody
01:13:26.740 I think the BBC radio
01:13:29.080 actually really
01:13:29.720 was the only ones
01:13:30.300 that really
01:13:30.800 consistently ran with that
01:13:32.740 you know
01:13:33.080 if you look at like
01:13:34.340 things like
01:13:34.920 particularly news quiz
01:13:35.940 where
01:13:36.220 just have
01:13:37.100 you know
01:13:37.420 every source in the lab
01:13:38.200 someone like me
01:13:38.840 someone like Simon Evans
01:13:40.040 someone like you
01:13:41.500 you know
01:13:42.020 Alan Cochran
01:13:42.880 will pop up on there
01:13:43.720 because I think
01:13:44.820 it just makes it better
01:13:45.920 the point is
01:13:46.700 it's nothing
01:13:47.040 it's nothing ideological
01:13:48.240 yeah I did the moral maze
01:13:49.420 this year as well
01:13:49.960 I mean they are trying
01:13:51.020 something's changing
01:13:52.540 because I've noticed
01:13:53.240 this with
01:13:53.580 it's like you know
01:13:54.240 when I set up
01:13:55.040 Comedy Unleashed
01:13:55.600 like five years ago
01:13:56.660 with Andy Shaw
01:13:57.340 and lots of people said
01:13:58.800 oh there's no need
01:13:59.440 for any of this
01:13:59.880 which we don't get
01:14:00.400 that criticism anymore
01:14:01.340 because comedians
01:14:02.420 do get cancelled
01:14:03.080 but we've had
01:14:04.500 recently a Guardian
01:14:05.460 article about it
01:14:06.220 that wasn't a hit piece
01:14:07.380 I mean it was
01:14:08.320 it was you know
01:14:09.020 it was a bit sniffy
01:14:09.960 and sneery
01:14:10.420 but it wasn't a hit piece
01:14:11.320 we had a nice thing
01:14:12.520 in Sky
01:14:13.000 Sky covered it
01:14:13.920 they came along to film
01:14:14.980 I thought they were
01:14:15.460 going to do a hit piece
01:14:16.120 and it was just
01:14:16.560 actually quite nice
01:14:17.760 I think that there's
01:14:18.940 really good like
01:14:19.640 green shoots
01:14:20.320 of a kind of recovery
01:14:21.940 recovery is just
01:14:23.160 to remember
01:14:23.640 that comedy is comedy
01:14:24.620 and it's supposed
01:14:25.060 to be funny
01:14:25.540 but the controversy
01:14:26.900 around Matt Rife
01:14:27.840 right
01:14:28.120 so you know
01:14:28.920 what is the controversy
01:14:30.320 so the controversy
01:14:31.040 was there was a joke
01:14:32.120 at the beginning
01:14:32.580 of his special
01:14:33.240 which essentially
01:14:33.880 was a domestic
01:14:35.000 violence joke
01:14:36.480 in many ways
01:14:36.920 personally I didn't
01:14:37.900 like the joke
01:14:38.440 but I recognised
01:14:39.320 that it was just a joke
01:14:40.380 I was surprised
01:14:41.180 that it was in his special
01:14:42.520 I just didn't think
01:14:43.440 it met the quality
01:14:44.060 threshold for something
01:14:44.840 like that
01:14:45.260 but ultimately
01:14:46.080 that was his choice
01:14:47.480 the audience on the night
01:14:48.420 it's fair to say
01:14:49.120 laughed at it
01:14:49.720 quite heartily
01:14:50.340 what I thought
01:14:51.140 was really heartening
01:14:52.040 on TikTok
01:14:52.780 and other places
01:14:53.680 was the young people
01:14:54.660 coming for him
01:14:55.260 no one was saying
01:14:56.220 he should lose his job
01:14:56.960 no one was saying
01:14:57.840 his things should be
01:14:58.360 taken down
01:14:58.800 what they were doing
01:14:59.780 was they were
01:15:00.220 attacking the joke
01:15:01.400 they were attacking
01:15:02.180 the idea
01:15:02.940 and I think
01:15:03.600 good
01:15:04.060 that's all that's
01:15:05.620 happened
01:15:05.840 it's gone back
01:15:07.020 to how it should
01:15:07.640 have always been
01:15:08.420 it's not quite there
01:15:09.320 yeah
01:15:09.480 but even within a year
01:15:10.860 I mean if you take
01:15:11.420 like when Jerry Sadowitz
01:15:12.460 show got cancelled
01:15:13.920 by Pleasance
01:15:14.920 last year
01:15:15.940 last Edinburgh Fringe
01:15:16.960 and he's like
01:15:17.660 as you know
01:15:18.420 major veteran
01:15:19.240 of the circuit
01:15:19.820 and respected
01:15:20.720 by all the sort of
01:15:22.040 woke comics as well
01:15:23.040 but this year
01:15:24.500 when our show
01:15:25.240 got cancelled
01:15:25.920 by the Leith Arches
01:15:27.980 in Edinburgh
01:15:28.460 because Graham Linehan
01:15:29.760 was on the bill
01:15:30.400 and then it got cancelled
01:15:32.220 by a second venue
01:15:33.000 and the show
01:15:33.440 ended up on a platform
01:15:34.460 outside
01:15:34.840 in the open air
01:15:35.960 outside the Scottish Parliament
01:15:37.000 but lots of people
01:15:38.380 said this was ridiculous
01:15:40.120 even some people
01:15:40.920 I didn't expect
01:15:41.740 you know the people
01:15:42.620 the comedians
01:15:43.160 who normally say
01:15:44.140 yeah well you shouldn't
01:15:44.740 say problematic things
01:15:45.620 then
01:15:45.820 started coming out
01:15:46.920 and say actually
01:15:47.520 so I mean
01:15:48.500 just don't go and see
01:15:49.380 a comedy show
01:15:49.860 if you think you'll be offended
01:15:50.920 don't cancel it
01:15:51.800 that's a big shift
01:15:52.840 even within that year
01:15:53.900 I think the responses
01:15:55.120 to those two shows
01:15:56.960 shows that it's changing
01:15:58.300 well do you know
01:15:58.800 what happens though
01:15:59.340 is over time
01:16:00.000 everyone would have
01:16:00.720 been told off
01:16:01.340 the longer this thing goes
01:16:02.520 so I think in many ways
01:16:04.840 left wing comics
01:16:05.860 you know progressive comics
01:16:07.560 get more crap than we do
01:16:09.080 because people look at us
01:16:10.580 and go well these guys
01:16:11.340 they'll say out of order stuff
01:16:12.660 that's what they do
01:16:13.540 they're arseholes
01:16:14.140 you know
01:16:14.480 and stuff
01:16:15.220 but the thing is
01:16:15.780 when you're on the left
01:16:16.760 sometimes you're hemmed in
01:16:18.720 where there's these expectations
01:16:20.620 if you step out of line
01:16:21.700 you'll get absolutely devoured
01:16:22.980 so over time
01:16:24.120 what happens is
01:16:24.780 comics goes
01:16:25.280 well I thought I was on that side
01:16:26.760 and you all tried to destroy me
01:16:28.680 and so they realise
01:16:29.880 they're worse with each other
01:16:30.900 aren't they
01:16:31.300 they can be
01:16:32.040 and what they realise over time
01:16:33.420 is like
01:16:33.920 like actually
01:16:34.700 it's really precious
01:16:35.640 to just be able to
01:16:36.640 to have the right
01:16:38.200 to get it wrong
01:16:38.920 no I don't mind
01:16:40.020 when people say
01:16:40.400 I didn't like that joke
01:16:41.340 because
01:16:41.800 it's when I didn't like that joke
01:16:43.600 and you should lose your living
01:16:45.360 yeah
01:16:45.740 I mean
01:16:46.520 it really is a terrible thing
01:16:48.240 to not have a sense of humour
01:16:49.220 or to be
01:16:50.500 I think of all the things
01:16:51.540 you could be upset about
01:16:52.460 at the moment
01:16:52.840 comedy is just
01:16:53.860 it's just the weirdest one
01:16:54.900 and on that very point
01:16:55.960 unless you wanted to
01:16:56.800 I was just going to
01:16:58.500 just add as well
01:16:59.300 it's
01:16:59.600 I should have mentioned
01:17:00.980 my tour at that point
01:17:01.780 I mean it was absolutely
01:17:02.840 I mean Constantine
01:17:05.140 was literally looking at me
01:17:06.380 like
01:17:06.640 okay we got it
01:17:07.620 onto the comedy subject
01:17:08.700 somehow
01:17:09.160 and my incredibly
01:17:10.800 controversial show
01:17:12.020 people
01:17:12.700 being sick
01:17:13.680 remember
01:17:13.960 you're the woke one
01:17:14.720 on here
01:17:15.000 yeah exactly
01:17:15.720 my edgelord
01:17:17.280 basic bloke
01:17:18.560 people have been
01:17:19.180 passing out
01:17:20.000 it's like
01:17:20.620 you know
01:17:20.900 those horror films
01:17:22.820 in the 70s
01:17:23.820 it just
01:17:24.220 it's
01:17:25.040 yeah that's on tour
01:17:26.200 next year
01:17:27.280 but I say this
01:17:28.140 it's like
01:17:28.740 one thing that never changed
01:17:29.980 and I'm sure you guys
01:17:30.880 would have experienced this
01:17:31.740 live audiences
01:17:32.760 were always great
01:17:33.720 you know
01:17:33.940 more or less always
01:17:34.740 there was a tiny percentage
01:17:36.100 of people that got emboldened
01:17:37.320 but it was never like
01:17:38.480 how it was on social media
01:17:39.700 because
01:17:39.940 you know
01:17:40.340 most people are adults
01:17:41.080 that's right
01:17:41.600 yeah
01:17:41.780 that is very true
01:17:43.180 I did get booed
01:17:44.480 at a gig on Thursday
01:17:45.440 but
01:17:45.720 well let's leave that aside
01:17:47.060 yeah but
01:17:47.640 that's just equality
01:17:48.560 what had you said
01:17:51.400 can you give us a flavour
01:17:52.860 of what it was
01:17:53.380 you'd upset
01:17:53.820 how you'd upset them
01:17:54.700 well it was
01:17:55.900 it was a new material night
01:17:57.280 and they were very
01:17:58.640 very progressive
01:17:59.520 was it your new material night
01:18:00.660 no no no
01:18:01.540 because I did his one
01:18:02.460 they were all psychopaths
01:18:03.980 yeah they heckled you
01:18:05.760 off the stage
01:18:06.460 yeah
01:18:06.820 yeah
01:18:07.300 and you deserved it
01:18:09.000 and I gave them
01:18:10.120 a little round of applause
01:18:10.920 when you left
01:18:11.300 no
01:18:11.540 I remember you were looking
01:18:13.380 at going
01:18:13.780 what is going on here
01:18:14.900 and that was a truly
01:18:15.580 beautiful moment for me
01:18:16.800 Jeff
01:18:16.980 well you made me realise
01:18:18.500 that my audience
01:18:19.300 just seemed like
01:18:20.160 rabid centrist
01:18:21.080 compared to
01:18:21.840 whatever rabble
01:18:22.940 you've procured
01:18:23.600 yeah the absolute lunatics
01:18:24.880 yeah no I just
01:18:26.000 I just did a joke
01:18:26.900 about pronouns
01:18:27.640 and
01:18:28.380 and you got booed
01:18:29.600 by your audience
01:18:30.420 yeah yeah
01:18:30.840 well no no no
01:18:31.520 this was a new material night
01:18:33.120 which is a very nice gig
01:18:34.440 a new material gig
01:18:35.340 and then they were
01:18:36.140 they were already
01:18:37.220 upset
01:18:38.140 and then I went
01:18:39.240 look I'm going to bring it down
01:18:40.520 let's not
01:18:41.120 let's not get upset
01:18:41.880 I'm just going to do some bits
01:18:43.600 about Israel-Palestine
01:18:45.040 and that really
01:18:46.040 like
01:18:46.640 even though it wasn't
01:18:47.760 controversial the bit
01:18:48.560 they heard the words
01:18:49.400 and I did it
01:18:50.600 and it just went
01:18:51.500 further and further
01:18:52.260 and you know it's bad
01:18:53.160 because the only laughter
01:18:54.100 I could hear
01:18:54.580 was the laughter
01:18:55.500 of the comedians
01:18:56.240 well
01:18:57.040 that's when you know
01:18:58.280 it's really gone downhill
01:18:59.300 that's still quite enjoyable
01:19:00.280 isn't it
01:19:00.800 yeah
01:19:01.040 yeah
01:19:01.880 what was the pronouns joke
01:19:03.760 what was the pronouns joke
01:19:05.440 I'm still working on it
01:19:06.520 so
01:19:06.780 yeah
01:19:07.160 it was just a shit joke
01:19:08.560 yeah
01:19:08.960 yeah
01:19:09.500 because if it was a groan
01:19:10.560 that's a slightly different thing
01:19:11.880 no it was a hiss
01:19:12.680 wow
01:19:13.560 wow
01:19:14.180 pantomime season's begun
01:19:15.300 yeah
01:19:15.680 anyway
01:19:16.500 smoothly
01:19:17.360 moving on
01:19:18.100 very smoothly
01:19:18.760 Jeff you were saying
01:19:20.040 I can't believe people
01:19:20.840 would get upset about comedy
01:19:21.880 in the current moment
01:19:22.600 and of course
01:19:23.160 next year
01:19:23.820 we have
01:19:24.880 two elections
01:19:25.780 one here
01:19:27.100 one in the United States
01:19:28.200 Donald Trump
01:19:29.760 might be running from prison
01:19:31.300 unlikely
01:19:31.940 I hope so
01:19:32.480 could happen
01:19:32.860 you know
01:19:33.940 what's going to happen
01:19:34.700 in the UK as well
01:19:35.680 like
01:19:35.880 we're looking forward to that
01:19:37.080 what are you guys thinking about
01:19:38.280 I think America is insane
01:19:40.100 the idea
01:19:40.740 how gangster would that be
01:19:42.420 if he ran from prison
01:19:43.340 like he does it over Zoom
01:19:44.920 right
01:19:45.260 he's like
01:19:45.800 that would be
01:19:46.480 that would be astonishing
01:19:47.300 and I didn't realise
01:19:47.940 you could do that
01:19:48.720 but apparently in America
01:19:49.800 you can
01:19:50.980 even if you've been a prosecutor
01:19:53.240 you can still run
01:19:54.400 but I just think
01:19:55.940 it's
01:19:56.820 is that the best they can do
01:19:58.800 and Biden
01:19:59.320 I mean
01:19:59.580 I don't think the Democrats
01:20:00.640 ever wanted Biden around
01:20:02.180 and I don't think he wants to be there
01:20:04.360 no
01:20:04.680 and the whole thing is so tragic
01:20:05.920 I don't know
01:20:07.620 the paucity of options
01:20:09.400 is going to be an issue
01:20:10.540 in both elections
01:20:11.740 you know
01:20:12.120 and that could affect turnout
01:20:13.240 which you'd say might
01:20:14.240 sort of benefit
01:20:14.840 the more conservative side
01:20:15.760 that tend to be more mobilised
01:20:17.080 for voting
01:20:18.080 but
01:20:18.420 look
01:20:19.180 when Trump won against Hillary
01:20:21.460 a lot of left wing people
01:20:22.600 lost their minds
01:20:23.200 how could you do this
01:20:24.200 this guy is a toxic figure
01:20:25.460 I don't know
01:20:26.440 if it will be the same next time
01:20:27.580 because I think
01:20:28.080 even those people
01:20:29.080 might go
01:20:29.660 well the other guy
01:20:30.960 is senile
01:20:31.860 like it really
01:20:32.680 and it is an incredible situation
01:20:34.840 where Trump gets to seem
01:20:36.300 like the sprightly young thing
01:20:37.920 I mean
01:20:39.220 you've got two guys
01:20:40.560 essentially
01:20:40.900 that could cause a world war
01:20:42.040 one
01:20:42.820 because he was upset
01:20:44.200 and the other one
01:20:45.500 by accident
01:20:46.240 you know
01:20:46.720 Joe Biden
01:20:47.460 I mean it's such a serious thing
01:20:49.360 you know
01:20:49.660 in the States
01:20:50.060 being a commander in chief
01:20:51.080 having the nuclear codes
01:20:52.580 all those things
01:20:53.220 and you know
01:20:54.240 you cannot judge
01:20:55.380 an American voter
01:20:56.780 who at that point
01:20:57.600 says
01:20:57.880 I don't want somebody
01:20:58.960 who's clearly suffering
01:20:59.780 with mental issues
01:21:00.540 to be that person
01:21:01.360 and on that very point
01:21:02.480 I think one of the things
01:21:03.420 that really plays
01:21:04.420 into Trump's hands
01:21:05.200 and he's clearly
01:21:05.800 going to be the nominee
01:21:06.600 as we sit here today
01:21:07.820 and he's ahead of Biden
01:21:09.240 as far as I understand
01:21:10.120 in terms of the polling
01:21:10.940 is that
01:21:12.180 what you have seen
01:21:13.100 since Biden
01:21:13.660 has come in
01:21:14.640 and this may be
01:21:15.660 maybe correlation
01:21:16.980 is not causation
01:21:17.720 but it might be
01:21:18.540 you know
01:21:19.200 the collapse of American power
01:21:21.480 around the world
01:21:22.240 the fact that
01:21:23.020 people are quite happy
01:21:24.940 you know
01:21:25.420 Putin's quite happy
01:21:26.360 to have a little nibble
01:21:27.860 at Ukraine
01:21:28.420 you know
01:21:29.000 under Biden's watch
01:21:29.960 look at what happened
01:21:30.880 in Afghanistan
01:21:31.480 Israel-Palestine
01:21:32.580 I mean that is clearly
01:21:33.540 you know
01:21:34.400 it's America's central ally
01:21:35.980 in the Middle East
01:21:36.980 Iran feeling free
01:21:39.460 to support Hamas
01:21:41.520 into making that attack
01:21:42.640 it just shows you
01:21:43.740 that the fear
01:21:45.160 and respect
01:21:45.920 that America commands
01:21:46.940 around the world
01:21:47.520 is declining
01:21:48.140 and when you've got a guy
01:21:49.880 who keeps falling over
01:21:51.100 and you know
01:21:52.280 is clearly not at his peak
01:21:54.140 in charge
01:21:55.700 it's not unreasonable
01:21:57.500 for the American public
01:21:59.160 to think
01:21:59.720 well
01:22:00.400 whatever that guy
01:22:01.440 might be tweeting
01:22:02.220 and you know
01:22:03.000 January of the 6th
01:22:03.860 was not a good look
01:22:04.720 and not a good thing
01:22:05.660 to have happened
01:22:06.580 and lots of other issues
01:22:07.640 that people will have
01:22:08.420 with Trump
01:22:08.780 you just look at that
01:22:09.980 and you go
01:22:10.380 on balance
01:22:11.580 do I want this
01:22:13.940 or do I want the guy
01:22:15.320 with the mean tweets
01:22:16.220 and I think a lot of people
01:22:17.720 will see that
01:22:19.020 as quite an easy choice
01:22:20.380 I suspect
01:22:20.780 I think the thing
01:22:21.760 with Trump
01:22:22.360 that you notice
01:22:23.100 that some of the foreign policy
01:22:24.240 the issues overseas
01:22:25.440 didn't happen
01:22:26.100 because I guess
01:22:27.220 it's partly because
01:22:28.400 he's a deeply flawed character
01:22:29.780 Donald Trump
01:22:30.360 but part of that is
01:22:31.460 was Putin
01:22:31.920 was unsure
01:22:32.820 of how he might react
01:22:33.720 right
01:22:34.280 do you remember
01:22:34.740 when he bombed
01:22:35.680 that airstrip
01:22:36.740 in Syria
01:22:37.360 no one expected
01:22:38.140 that to happen
01:22:38.640 that clearly
01:22:39.420 surprised the Russian
01:22:41.300 administration
01:22:42.080 it doesn't seem to me
01:22:43.280 when did
01:22:43.880 when did Trump
01:22:44.580 leave office
01:22:45.380 it was 2020
01:22:46.540 right
01:22:46.920 so the inauguration
01:22:47.960 early 2021
01:22:49.180 2021
01:22:49.800 2021
01:22:50.620 right
01:22:51.180 because they had
01:22:51.540 the election
01:22:52.020 yeah
01:22:52.400 invasion of Ukraine
01:22:53.640 happens
01:22:54.060 you know
01:22:54.440 so you're saying
01:22:55.260 it's quite a good thing
01:22:56.100 no no
01:22:56.380 that happened in 2022
01:22:57.180 sorry
01:22:57.600 but a year after
01:22:58.920 but there was Afghanistan
01:22:59.880 first
01:23:00.280 Afghanistan pull out
01:23:02.080 was first
01:23:02.660 which was a disaster
01:23:04.080 yeah
01:23:04.400 then you get Ukraine
01:23:06.140 yeah
01:23:06.420 and now you get Israel
01:23:07.420 Palestine
01:23:07.660 now I'm not saying
01:23:08.280 for one second
01:23:08.840 if Donald Trump's
01:23:09.560 in position
01:23:10.940 that none of those
01:23:12.000 things happen
01:23:12.520 but the unpredictability
01:23:14.720 of him
01:23:15.200 if you're wargaming
01:23:16.260 a reaction
01:23:16.700 I feel with certain
01:23:17.660 certainty
01:23:18.420 they could say
01:23:19.320 well there's a line
01:23:20.160 that Biden won't cross
01:23:21.100 I wonder if that's
01:23:21.980 the same with Trump
01:23:22.540 but the downside of that
01:23:23.100 is that he might
01:23:23.560 cross that line
01:23:24.120 yeah
01:23:24.360 so you could say
01:23:25.600 you know
01:23:25.840 having someone
01:23:26.480 unhinged in charge
01:23:27.540 is great
01:23:27.960 because people are nervous
01:23:28.880 yeah he's my psycho
01:23:30.460 but I'm so surprised
01:23:32.700 the Republican
01:23:33.160 I think you're probably right
01:23:34.660 it is wrapped up for Trump
01:23:35.780 but you know
01:23:36.120 if they had gone with
01:23:36.940 someone like DeSantis
01:23:37.620 then Biden would have
01:23:38.700 been creamed
01:23:39.540 yeah absolutely
01:23:40.080 I think Biden's creamed
01:23:41.440 anyway mate
01:23:42.100 I'm not so sure
01:23:43.000 because the resentment
01:23:44.360 against Trump
01:23:44.920 is so extreme
01:23:45.880 that the ones
01:23:47.220 who would typically
01:23:47.820 vote Republican
01:23:48.460 there's a lot of them
01:23:49.040 out there who won't
01:23:49.800 who won't do it
01:23:50.460 but do you think
01:23:51.220 that there are
01:23:51.900 younger voters
01:23:52.860 that were so
01:23:53.700 hell-bent on getting
01:23:54.660 Trump out that time
01:23:55.480 that was
01:23:55.800 it was almost like
01:23:56.480 get Brexit done
01:23:57.200 in a way
01:23:57.520 it's one of those
01:23:58.100 single issue things
01:23:59.060 that actually people
01:24:00.160 people mistake it
01:24:01.160 as a mass endorsement
01:24:02.180 of a party or a politician
01:24:03.460 when actually it's one thing
01:24:04.880 get Trump out
01:24:06.040 now that having happened
01:24:07.480 and Biden having
01:24:08.480 frankly disappointed
01:24:09.560 a lot of people
01:24:10.200 on the left left
01:24:10.920 in the states
01:24:11.700 I wonder if they see
01:24:12.800 they're as mobilised
01:24:14.620 or motivated
01:24:15.300 to do that again
01:24:16.220 that is a good point
01:24:17.000 and by the way
01:24:17.620 Biden has been
01:24:18.520 very strong
01:24:19.260 on supporting Israel
01:24:20.680 and has alienated
01:24:22.740 a lot of his voters
01:24:23.460 as a result
01:24:24.680 yeah
01:24:25.000 the people that
01:24:26.480 you know
01:24:27.300 the Democratic Party
01:24:28.280 has been courting
01:24:28.880 for some time
01:24:29.500 so Biden
01:24:30.380 it's not like
01:24:31.020 Biden has done
01:24:31.820 everything badly
01:24:32.620 but you have to
01:24:33.700 look at it on balance
01:24:34.960 and for the Americans
01:24:36.320 especially you know
01:24:37.240 Francis and I
01:24:37.960 are fortunate enough
01:24:39.000 to spend a little bit
01:24:39.680 more time there nowadays
01:24:40.680 when you talk to people
01:24:41.940 there
01:24:42.260 you know
01:24:42.720 I think
01:24:43.160 seeing that country
01:24:45.400 become weaker
01:24:46.800 on the international stage
01:24:48.600 is something
01:24:49.000 that really affects people
01:24:50.280 and how they see
01:24:51.180 how they see their president
01:24:52.460 how they see
01:24:53.060 the political system
01:24:54.040 and also
01:24:55.300 if you look at the economy
01:24:56.440 you know
01:24:56.960 things are getting
01:24:57.740 so expensive
01:24:58.820 yeah
01:24:59.360 and that may have happened
01:25:01.100 under Trump
01:25:01.660 it may not
01:25:02.280 but you know
01:25:03.280 the economy
01:25:03.780 is something
01:25:04.480 that people will judge
01:25:05.580 a politician on
01:25:07.660 even if it's not
01:25:08.580 their responsibility
01:25:09.600 and it hasn't been
01:25:10.480 a good time for America
01:25:11.220 I mean
01:25:11.400 I'm now thinking
01:25:12.680 maybe I've been
01:25:13.260 a bit unfair
01:25:13.860 on Biden
01:25:14.200 with foreign policy
01:25:15.200 because they were
01:25:15.900 initially with Ukraine
01:25:16.840 it was a very strong
01:25:17.660 sort of reaction
01:25:18.800 that's ebbed away
01:25:19.500 I guess there's a chance
01:25:20.680 with Trump
01:25:21.100 that he'd have just gone
01:25:22.220 not my business
01:25:22.880 not committing our money
01:25:23.940 they're not committing
01:25:24.680 our troops
01:25:25.360 you know
01:25:25.760 but that's the point
01:25:27.300 in a way with Trump
01:25:28.000 is it's just not clear cut
01:25:29.200 what he'll do
01:25:29.760 but that is an advantage
01:25:31.080 I mean in geopolitics
01:25:32.240 that is an advantage
01:25:33.080 if people don't know
01:25:34.300 what your move is going to be
01:25:35.460 it means they have to be
01:25:36.880 extra careful as a result
01:25:38.120 and you are then
01:25:38.900 not in a war
01:25:40.240 where Ukraine
01:25:41.040 has been invaded
01:25:41.800 because that has
01:25:43.380 already been prevented
01:25:44.260 do you see what I mean
01:25:44.880 that is the argument
01:25:45.940 the pro-Trump people
01:25:46.840 will make
01:25:47.260 so we'll find out
01:25:48.060 what happens there
01:25:48.660 but interesting for us
01:25:50.100 obviously all four of us
01:25:51.080 being based here in the UK
01:25:52.140 is how that maps
01:25:53.960 onto the election here
01:25:54.900 because my sense is
01:25:56.060 Labour are going to win
01:25:57.200 quite possibly
01:25:59.000 a landslide win
01:26:00.060 without actually
01:26:01.640 that being an endorsement
01:26:03.060 to your point
01:26:03.740 of the Labour Party
01:26:05.940 it might just be
01:26:07.120 a plague on both your houses
01:26:09.060 but there's more plague
01:26:10.040 for the Tories
01:26:10.720 than for Labour
01:26:11.580 and as a result
01:26:12.760 Labour ends up
01:26:13.540 with a majority
01:26:14.560 well I mean
01:26:15.240 you know
01:26:15.640 the 2019
01:26:16.240 general election victory
01:26:17.300 so much of that
01:26:18.000 was put down to Boris
01:26:19.020 the force of personality
01:26:19.980 he's done it
01:26:21.020 but he also
01:26:21.800 was up against
01:26:23.020 you know
01:26:23.300 get Brexit done
01:26:24.120 which was a great
01:26:24.860 campaign idea
01:26:25.860 Labour's position
01:26:26.920 at the time
01:26:27.360 and I love to mention it
01:26:28.140 as often as I can
01:26:28.800 was they were going to
01:26:29.840 crack a new deal
01:26:30.660 and then put it to a referendum
01:26:32.240 when they campaigned against it
01:26:34.120 which was a complete
01:26:34.780 non-position
01:26:35.300 on the single biggest thing
01:26:36.720 facing the country
01:26:37.380 at the time
01:26:37.860 Corbyn was massively
01:26:39.340 unpopular
01:26:40.580 so again
01:26:41.380 some of what happens
01:26:42.360 in elections
01:26:42.860 is things get mistaken
01:26:44.100 as a single thing
01:26:45.480 that drove it
01:26:45.940 or a single personality
01:26:47.060 and yeah
01:26:48.220 like if Labour get in
01:26:49.340 it will be interesting
01:26:50.340 to see what Starmer
01:26:51.260 I'm going to say
01:26:52.140 if it's almost
01:26:52.880 overwhelmingly unlikely
01:26:53.740 is what Starmer
01:26:56.240 interprets that as
01:26:57.140 I think like
01:26:58.000 in a weird way for him
01:26:59.100 a big majority
01:27:00.160 could be tricky
01:27:00.800 because there'll be
01:27:01.320 loads of Labour people
01:27:02.080 that go right
01:27:02.620 we've got a 200 seat majority
01:27:04.160 let's do some really
01:27:05.300 left-wing stuff
01:27:05.960 he's like
01:27:06.220 that's not what I was
01:27:07.000 voted in for
01:27:07.560 they go
01:27:08.040 all right
01:27:08.320 two years in
01:27:08.980 you're out son
01:27:09.960 we'll get in Andy Burnham
01:27:11.600 because they'll feel
01:27:12.400 like they've got time
01:27:13.080 to pull it back
01:27:13.600 before the next election
01:27:14.620 so I wonder
01:27:15.420 if just like when Cameron
01:27:16.460 there was that coalition
01:27:17.500 in 2010
01:27:18.140 that kept people in line
01:27:19.300 whether for Starmer's
01:27:20.400 point of view
01:27:20.760 a 60 seat majority
01:27:21.820 might be more manageable
01:27:22.800 than the 200 seat one
01:27:24.020 well maybe it won't be that
01:27:24.960 maybe there won't be a landslide
01:27:26.000 I mean I have a kind of feeling
01:27:27.740 that what could happen here
01:27:28.840 is that it won't be a landslide
01:27:29.960 there'll be a coalition
01:27:31.060 I think
01:27:31.840 and you might even end up
01:27:33.260 with a situation
01:27:33.800 where he has to go for electoral reform
01:27:37.080 as part of the bargain
01:27:37.860 and if that happens
01:27:39.220 and I hope that happens
01:27:40.520 I think we need
01:27:41.440 something needs to change fundamentally
01:27:43.260 and I think PR is the way to go
01:27:44.540 I think proportional representation
01:27:45.380 is the way to go
01:27:46.180 I think if that happens
01:27:47.920 then the whole field is open now
01:27:50.400 it means smaller parties
01:27:51.500 can make some kind of a difference
01:27:53.280 it means that we can get
01:27:54.120 we can have a more democratic society
01:27:56.000 and it works perfectly well
01:27:57.360 in European countries
01:27:58.220 these coalitions
01:27:58.980 I don't have any fear of that at all
01:28:00.520 you know one of the funniest things
01:28:01.560 in the last couple of years
01:28:02.480 were when it was still quite tight
01:28:03.780 between Labour and the Tories
01:28:04.860 there was all that stuff
01:28:05.840 hashtag progressive alliance
01:28:08.120 progressive alliance
01:28:09.520 the Lib Dems
01:28:10.180 bless them
01:28:10.600 they got so excited
01:28:11.760 and then the moment
01:28:13.600 that Labour opened up
01:28:14.560 a significant poll lead
01:28:15.860 the Lib Dems just got ghosted
01:28:17.460 out of existence
01:28:18.100 and that hashtag
01:28:19.440 stopped appearing
01:28:20.320 it is a weird thing
01:28:21.660 with the Lib Dems
01:28:22.760 right
01:28:22.920 they should be a force right now
01:28:24.260 because you've got
01:28:24.800 a deeply unpopular party in power
01:28:26.360 you've got a Labour party
01:28:27.540 that are apathetic
01:28:28.240 and disappointing
01:28:28.880 in their base already
01:28:29.840 before they've even got in power
01:28:31.100 at least Blair waited
01:28:32.220 until he was in four years
01:28:33.500 Lib Dems
01:28:34.660 they just don't have
01:28:35.300 an identity nationally
01:28:36.360 and when they campaign
01:28:37.580 they tend to like
01:28:38.780 they'll say one thing
01:28:39.620 in one constituency
01:28:40.580 they'll say
01:28:41.420 we want to build loads of houses
01:28:43.020 and they'll say
01:28:43.680 well we don't want that
01:28:44.340 and they'll go
01:28:44.620 well nor do we
01:28:45.340 we're against that
01:28:46.140 and they'll go to another by-election
01:28:48.000 and they'll say the opposite
01:28:49.040 because they're able to do that
01:28:50.940 in by-elections
01:28:51.620 I think the moment
01:28:52.180 they have to have
01:28:52.680 a national platform
01:28:53.660 and they're going to struggle
01:28:55.080 I mean this is weird
01:28:56.340 people say
01:28:56.840 why has this ended up
01:28:58.300 being a beat up
01:28:58.940 on the Lib Dems
01:28:59.760 I guess the point is
01:29:00.840 is that this should be ripe
01:29:02.280 for a third party
01:29:03.420 to make a difference
01:29:04.140 and actually the third party
01:29:05.280 that's more likely
01:29:05.960 to make a difference now
01:29:06.880 is reform
01:29:07.700 exactly
01:29:08.480 and the interesting thing
01:29:09.740 about reform
01:29:10.600 is it's not actually reform
01:29:12.100 it's the person
01:29:13.020 who set up reform
01:29:14.080 which is Nigel Farage
01:29:15.800 who you think
01:29:16.560 is going to be the leader
01:29:17.300 of the Tory party
01:29:17.960 well I don't think
01:29:18.860 I don't know
01:29:19.400 if he's going to be
01:29:19.940 the leader of the Tory party
01:29:21.000 but I think
01:29:21.820 Nigel is the political joker
01:29:23.800 in the pack
01:29:24.400 and the move
01:29:25.840 that Nigel makes
01:29:26.780 this will significantly
01:29:27.720 influence
01:29:28.600 the result
01:29:29.280 of the next general election
01:29:30.300 I think if he puts
01:29:31.640 if he goes full on reform
01:29:33.580 and it's like
01:29:34.280 look
01:29:34.640 we're going to hold
01:29:35.340 the Conservatives' feet
01:29:36.280 to the fire
01:29:36.780 we can all agree
01:29:37.760 the Conservative party
01:29:38.740 is no longer fit for purpose
01:29:39.980 you may vote for them
01:29:41.280 and they may say
01:29:42.480 a few things
01:29:43.000 but it's not going to happen
01:29:44.080 we all know it
01:29:45.100 vote for change
01:29:46.600 that will have
01:29:47.520 a very real impact
01:29:48.520 not only
01:29:49.360 on the Conservatives
01:29:50.780 but also on Labour
01:29:51.760 because there's this attitude
01:29:53.140 amongst Labour
01:29:53.820 that oh you know
01:29:54.800 working class people
01:29:55.700 have been disappointed
01:29:56.340 the Tories
01:29:56.860 they're going to come back
01:29:57.540 to us
01:29:57.940 well why should they
01:29:59.220 when you have failed
01:30:00.120 them for generations
01:30:00.840 when Soella
01:30:01.440 had to leave the government
01:30:02.860 actually what you saw
01:30:04.340 is a lot of people saying
01:30:05.800 well working class people
01:30:07.840 in the North
01:30:08.220 I mean that basically
01:30:09.240 lost the Tory party
01:30:10.360 the Red Wall
01:30:10.900 her leaving
01:30:11.840 and those people
01:30:12.560 they're not going to vote
01:30:13.380 for Labour
01:30:13.860 a lot of them
01:30:14.920 are going to vote
01:30:15.380 for reform
01:30:15.860 or abstain completely
01:30:16.900 and Labour may end up
01:30:18.400 getting back in
01:30:19.120 but that isn't
01:30:20.120 do you see what I'm saying
01:30:20.920 the thing about reform
01:30:21.660 though is they don't
01:30:22.380 stand a big
01:30:23.040 just like UKIP
01:30:24.040 chance of winning
01:30:24.780 in any single constituency
01:30:26.160 so they can poll
01:30:27.320 11 or 12%
01:30:28.220 whereas the Lib Dems
01:30:28.940 actually got chances
01:30:29.880 of winning seats
01:30:31.100 if we had PPR
01:30:32.980 you know
01:30:33.900 they would be
01:30:34.500 I agree with you Jeff
01:30:35.640 but what they can do
01:30:37.120 is take maybe enough votes
01:30:38.460 away from the Conservatives
01:30:39.740 that somebody else
01:30:40.940 comes in
01:30:41.400 like a Lib Dem
01:30:42.660 for example
01:30:43.280 or maybe
01:30:44.660 they could mobilise
01:30:45.700 enough of the
01:30:46.560 traditional working class
01:30:48.120 old school Labour
01:30:49.000 that it might mean
01:30:50.180 that another party
01:30:51.640 gets in
01:30:52.040 or a Conservative
01:30:52.700 might win
01:30:53.360 so it's going to be
01:30:54.760 very interesting
01:30:55.600 to see the moves
01:30:56.500 that Nigel makes
01:30:57.460 because I think
01:30:58.940 that is going to have
01:30:59.500 a very real
01:31:00.340 significant impact
01:31:01.180 on the result
01:31:01.720 of the election
01:31:02.240 I mean
01:31:02.980 it was interesting
01:31:04.280 with Faraj on
01:31:05.320 I'm a Celebrity
01:31:06.320 I don't know if you saw him
01:31:08.540 did you see him
01:31:09.060 in the shorts?
01:31:10.160 No
01:31:10.300 I mean this is very
01:31:12.200 flivorous
01:31:12.620 but he was packing
01:31:13.220 heat down there
01:31:13.980 he really was
01:31:15.080 definitely
01:31:15.960 I mean
01:31:16.620 have you not seen this?
01:31:17.700 No
01:31:17.880 what do you mean
01:31:18.620 by that remark?
01:31:19.920 Stacked
01:31:20.280 downstairs
01:31:20.880 oh I thought you meant
01:31:22.260 he was armed
01:31:22.820 no no no
01:31:23.680 imagine if he'd gone
01:31:25.700 in the jungle
01:31:26.240 with a shiv
01:31:26.940 and he's just like
01:31:27.940 right well
01:31:28.340 well Bellew's quite
01:31:29.300 daft
01:31:29.700 and sat on top
01:31:30.280 you know
01:31:30.560 I need to handle
01:31:31.580 myself
01:31:31.980 yeah I'm basically
01:31:32.560 saying he's got a big
01:31:33.220 cock which is probably
01:31:34.000 the most lowbrow
01:31:35.920 thing I could have
01:31:37.080 said
01:31:38.160 he also dressed to the
01:31:39.120 right which a lot
01:31:39.680 of people notice
01:31:40.220 but I think
01:31:41.460 what was interesting
01:31:42.740 about him on that
01:31:43.820 was that
01:31:44.400 I don't actually think
01:31:45.760 he mobilised people
01:31:46.920 to vote for him
01:31:47.620 very well
01:31:48.180 but all he did
01:31:50.000 was a sort of
01:31:50.540 politician's job
01:31:51.660 on that
01:31:52.160 I think he has
01:31:53.280 like
01:31:53.660 he has a strong
01:31:54.700 appeal because
01:31:55.320 he communicates
01:31:56.120 in this direct
01:31:57.060 way
01:31:57.540 but I don't know
01:31:59.620 if he's gonna
01:32:00.100 the problem with him
01:32:01.160 going to the Tories
01:32:01.980 right
01:32:02.280 is they're already
01:32:03.080 in a battle
01:32:03.520 in the blue wall
01:32:04.300 now with Lib Dems
01:32:05.180 if he goes to the Tories
01:32:06.540 then a lot of people
01:32:07.300 just go well I'll vote
01:32:08.160 Lib Dem because
01:32:08.760 that guy is distasteful
01:32:09.960 to me
01:32:10.280 so they're in this
01:32:11.300 weird electoral thing
01:32:12.320 that Labour
01:32:12.760 almost had in 2019
01:32:13.920 so I don't think
01:32:14.800 it's as simple
01:32:15.300 as Farage goes to the Tories
01:32:16.440 and that sorts them out
01:32:17.440 that just presents them
01:32:18.940 with another set of problems
01:32:19.620 but the difficulty
01:32:20.320 with Nigel Farage
01:32:21.440 going to the Tories
01:32:22.240 is the Tory party
01:32:24.140 is actually against him
01:32:26.100 the Tory party
01:32:28.020 is way to the left
01:32:28.920 of the Tory voting base
01:32:30.140 so
01:32:30.780 that's why I don't think
01:32:31.320 that will happen
01:32:31.780 so I don't think
01:32:33.200 that will happen
01:32:33.720 but what I think
01:32:35.280 will happen is
01:32:36.160 whether reform
01:32:37.900 is
01:32:38.080 see I don't think
01:32:39.120 most people could name
01:32:40.120 you a single policy
01:32:40.980 that reform has
01:32:41.960 it's a protest vote
01:32:43.660 it's not criticism
01:32:44.560 it's a sentiment
01:32:45.120 isn't it
01:32:45.620 like things are out of control
01:32:46.700 the country's going
01:32:47.340 if their slogan was
01:32:48.740 the country's going
01:32:49.360 to the dogs
01:32:49.900 you'd go
01:32:50.180 absolutely
01:32:51.020 bloody
01:32:51.520 absolutely
01:32:51.820 but one thing
01:32:54.040 I'm not so sure
01:32:54.920 about Andrew
01:32:55.500 is this idea
01:32:56.240 that the
01:32:56.980 the PI's
01:32:59.000 the answer
01:32:59.340 to all our problems
01:33:00.140 I don't look at
01:33:01.480 Europe and think
01:33:02.440 oh that's how
01:33:03.220 we should do it
01:33:03.900 I mean
01:33:04.220 one of the things
01:33:05.240 you know
01:33:05.540 we've talked about
01:33:06.680 this I think
01:33:07.020 with David Starkey
01:33:07.720 when we were talking
01:33:08.800 about proportional representation
01:33:09.920 is the
01:33:10.940 the first-past-the-post
01:33:12.300 system we have here
01:33:13.060 that produces
01:33:13.620 two major parties
01:33:14.680 is very good
01:33:16.240 at
01:33:17.040 defanging
01:33:18.280 the extremes
01:33:19.160 of each party
01:33:19.980 it prevents
01:33:20.980 the emergence
01:33:21.580 of extremist parties
01:33:22.760 I think
01:33:24.060 if you went to PR
01:33:25.140 now
01:33:25.480 you're going to get
01:33:26.480 some pretty extreme
01:33:27.880 things on both sides
01:33:28.980 very very quickly
01:33:29.940 I suppose I should clarify
01:33:30.560 I don't think PR
01:33:31.560 is the solution
01:33:32.560 to all our problems
01:33:33.480 I don't think that
01:33:34.440 but I am a democrat
01:33:35.820 and I do believe
01:33:36.640 in democracy
01:33:37.120 and I do like
01:33:37.760 I think it was
01:33:38.840 completely outrageous
01:33:40.500 that when UKIP
01:33:41.180 won that massive
01:33:41.880 share of the vote
01:33:42.560 and they ended up
01:33:43.340 with what
01:33:43.660 one seat
01:33:44.560 or something
01:33:44.960 which they already had
01:33:46.080 which is something
01:33:46.680 really ridiculous
01:33:47.540 it's like
01:33:47.880 that's just not democratic
01:33:49.200 so I think
01:33:50.160 on a point of principle
01:33:51.120 we should have PR
01:33:52.080 whether
01:33:52.760 even if it fucks
01:33:54.420 everything up eventually
01:33:55.180 I still think
01:33:55.760 we should have PR
01:33:56.320 it's like with Brexit
01:33:57.040 you're still on the left
01:34:00.320 mate
01:34:00.620 principle above reality
01:34:02.880 yeah
01:34:03.180 a lot of people
01:34:04.620 say well Brexit
01:34:05.220 would cause
01:34:05.960 economic ruination
01:34:06.860 okay fine
01:34:07.640 but we should still do it
01:34:08.920 because the principle
01:34:09.940 is right
01:34:10.380 you should be able
01:34:10.820 to vote out
01:34:11.460 the people in charge
01:34:12.220 and we can't do it
01:34:12.900 when we're with the EU
01:34:13.820 speaking of the EU
01:34:15.140 I heard an interesting
01:34:15.920 theory
01:34:16.500 we've had a lot
01:34:17.480 of European countries
01:34:18.420 partly because of PR
01:34:19.560 moved to the right
01:34:20.420 quite significantly
01:34:21.180 in some cases
01:34:22.020 is I think it was
01:34:23.280 in the New States
01:34:23.920 there was an article
01:34:24.480 saying in 10 years time
01:34:25.580 you could find
01:34:26.340 that a lot
01:34:27.320 as the EU moves in line
01:34:28.820 with those sort of
01:34:29.520 political movements
01:34:30.360 a lot of Remainers go
01:34:31.840 maybe we
01:34:32.580 you know
01:34:33.060 not necessarily
01:34:33.780 oh we don't want to be in it
01:34:34.880 but well perhaps
01:34:35.640 it's not the kind of
01:34:37.060 band of kindly wizards
01:34:38.880 that we once thought
01:34:39.720 it was
01:34:40.060 and then loads of
01:34:40.840 Brexiteers going
01:34:41.540 oh the temperature
01:34:42.280 looks nice in there
01:34:43.160 it could be time to rejoin
01:34:44.540 because actually
01:34:45.220 ultimately
01:34:46.140 we've got the European
01:34:47.080 elections coming up
01:34:48.220 is that
01:34:49.340 if there's far right
01:34:50.400 or significantly
01:34:51.980 right wing
01:34:52.460 administrations
01:34:54.060 in a lot of these
01:34:54.500 countries
01:34:54.760 policy would eventually
01:34:55.860 have to reflect that
01:34:56.640 that's good though
01:34:57.300 isn't it
01:34:57.560 that's what I mean
01:34:58.020 that's what's good
01:34:58.540 about PR
01:34:58.880 is that if
01:34:59.400 if the risk is
01:35:00.840 that a far right party
01:35:02.020 can come to power
01:35:02.740 or at least have a major clout
01:35:04.000 because the centrist parties
01:35:05.680 just aren't addressing
01:35:06.440 those issues
01:35:06.940 then that's a good argument
01:35:08.020 for that isn't it
01:35:08.500 because that means
01:35:09.360 I'm just saying
01:35:10.420 that we could see
01:35:11.300 an interesting flip
01:35:12.180 on Remainer
01:35:13.100 and rejoin sentiment
01:35:14.620 it's not that they don't
01:35:15.940 they don't like
01:35:16.860 not they don't like
01:35:18.040 the idea of the European project
01:35:19.280 but the temperature
01:35:20.100 of that swimming pool
01:35:21.480 is like
01:35:21.840 oh that's a bit
01:35:22.520 you know
01:35:22.780 that's not my
01:35:23.520 that's not my scene as much
01:35:24.820 and also I think
01:35:25.640 you know
01:35:25.800 when it comes to rejoining the EU
01:35:27.000 there was a graph
01:35:27.620 that I saw today
01:35:28.280 that shows
01:35:29.300 like basically
01:35:30.280 the surge in belief
01:35:32.280 that we were wrong
01:35:32.840 to leave the EU
01:35:33.580 literally goes in line
01:35:34.600 with the cost of living crisis
01:35:35.640 of course
01:35:36.020 now I'm not going to say
01:35:37.120 that once the economy improves
01:35:39.180 everyone will be
01:35:39.720 pro-Brexit
01:35:40.600 but I do think
01:35:41.640 that the sort of
01:35:42.840 dissatisfaction with it
01:35:43.800 has been exacerbated
01:35:44.760 by the fact
01:35:45.200 that everyone feels
01:35:45.800 fucking skimmed
01:35:46.500 I don't think
01:35:46.920 the rejoin thing
01:35:47.540 is ever going to happen
01:35:48.040 but the thing is
01:35:48.520 there are many
01:35:49.040 many countries in Europe
01:35:50.120 that are worse off
01:35:50.900 and as you know
01:35:51.460 both of us voted Remain
01:35:53.000 but there was a
01:35:54.120 you know
01:35:54.400 there's this Larry something
01:35:55.740 I can never remember his name
01:35:56.800 Elliot from The Guardian
01:35:57.480 Larry Elliot
01:35:57.840 the lone straight white man
01:35:59.220 who still writes
01:35:59.720 for The Guardian
01:36:00.220 he wrote
01:36:01.020 what's going on
01:36:01.460 with The Guardian
01:36:01.900 are they based now
01:36:03.600 is that what's happening
01:36:04.220 they just have one
01:36:05.040 they keep it around
01:36:05.760 they have one for diversity
01:36:07.600 but I gave him a good review
01:36:09.540 yeah
01:36:10.040 it's weird
01:36:10.760 he wrote an article
01:36:12.040 no this isn't the one
01:36:13.620 he wrote an article
01:36:14.600 basically saying
01:36:15.600 the rejoin thing
01:36:17.220 is never going to happen
01:36:18.000 because people
01:36:18.740 actually do realise
01:36:19.920 that yeah
01:36:20.880 things are not great
01:36:21.820 in the UK
01:36:22.220 they're much worse
01:36:23.120 in many European countries
01:36:24.420 yeah we've recovered
01:36:25.080 better than Germany
01:36:25.940 better than France
01:36:26.740 you know
01:36:27.200 it's not
01:36:27.560 the argument
01:36:28.840 is stuck up
01:36:29.340 we're talking
01:36:29.880 look I don't know
01:36:30.920 about a great deal
01:36:32.300 about you know
01:36:33.220 European politics
01:36:34.240 but there are some
01:36:36.020 let's just say
01:36:36.840 very right wing parties
01:36:38.480 that are doing
01:36:39.080 very well
01:36:39.920 in a lot of European countries
01:36:41.680 yeah
01:36:42.260 so this idea
01:36:43.380 that you know
01:36:44.100 you're going to move to
01:36:45.580 we're going to go back
01:36:46.460 into the EU
01:36:46.940 and everybody in the EU
01:36:48.040 is having this wonderful time
01:36:49.460 there's a lot of
01:36:51.060 very angry
01:36:51.700 very frustrated people
01:36:53.380 who have got
01:36:54.180 a lot of legitimate
01:36:55.360 criticisms
01:36:55.960 with the EU
01:36:56.620 if you look at
01:36:57.440 basically the vast majority
01:36:58.840 of southern European countries
01:37:00.340 they want out of the EU
01:37:02.240 a lot of them
01:37:03.020 I just hope Holland
01:37:04.060 doesn't ban weed
01:37:04.880 on that happy note
01:37:07.180 should we do a couple
01:37:08.100 of frivolous stories
01:37:09.040 before we head on over
01:37:10.020 to our paywall section
01:37:11.860 where we talk about
01:37:12.620 our predictions
01:37:13.540 for the future
01:37:14.100 and all that
01:37:14.540 we had
01:37:15.400 the Somerset Gimp
01:37:17.200 we had
01:37:18.200 the French priests
01:37:19.220 get amber
01:37:19.860 a lot of announcing
01:37:20.740 we got it
01:37:21.320 I mean I've never thought
01:37:22.480 I'd say it's good
01:37:22.920 but could we do
01:37:23.400 the French priest nonce
01:37:24.800 instead
01:37:25.180 yeah let's do that
01:37:26.420 I want to know
01:37:27.180 about the Somerset Gimp
01:37:28.120 we will do
01:37:29.080 Jeff is worried
01:37:31.080 for his career
01:37:31.720 you can't be anti-gimp
01:37:34.140 in the comedy industry
01:37:35.200 I genuinely think
01:37:35.420 it's a very dark news story
01:37:36.940 it sounds funny
01:37:37.980 yeah
01:37:38.500 so this is a story
01:37:39.580 about French Catholic priests
01:37:40.940 will be forced to wear
01:37:41.940 scannable QR code
01:37:43.360 so the public can identify
01:37:45.080 if they're a sex offender
01:37:46.420 does that imply
01:37:47.300 that the majority are
01:37:48.700 well that's sort of
01:37:49.880 where the funny angle
01:37:51.020 in this comes in
01:37:51.640 because actually
01:37:52.180 this is a story about
01:37:53.160 priests abusing children
01:37:55.340 so it's not that frivolous
01:37:56.640 however if you think
01:37:58.080 about the fact
01:37:58.660 that this indicates
01:37:59.480 that most of them
01:38:00.040 probably are nonces
01:38:00.960 then it becomes really funny
01:38:02.280 I think it's a bit like
01:38:03.360 you know when you've got
01:38:04.600 a cat that kills
01:38:05.860 loads of sparrows
01:38:06.620 you have to put a bell
01:38:07.300 on it
01:38:07.560 a stat but for nonces
01:38:09.580 my favourite
01:38:10.580 about all of this
01:38:11.580 is red I get
01:38:12.540 green I get
01:38:13.760 that's all clear
01:38:14.480 you're good to go
01:38:15.360 what about orange
01:38:16.060 orange
01:38:16.500 it's where you're sort of
01:38:17.760 not sure
01:38:18.320 but you're willing
01:38:18.980 to take the risk
01:38:19.620 is it a colour code
01:38:20.900 yeah
01:38:21.180 Catholic priests
01:38:22.260 in France
01:38:22.720 will be made to wear
01:38:23.420 traffic light
01:38:24.080 coded identification tags
01:38:25.620 to allow the public
01:38:26.360 to check whether
01:38:27.000 they may have faced
01:38:27.880 sexual abuse charges
01:38:28.940 cards will feature
01:38:30.180 a QR code
01:38:31.020 scannable by mobile phone
01:38:32.460 that will flag a red
01:38:33.640 orange or green light
01:38:35.260 depending on whether
01:38:36.060 its holder
01:38:36.540 had been stripped
01:38:37.520 of clerical status
01:38:38.640 the scheme
01:38:39.540 announced by the
01:38:40.340 Bishop's Conference
01:38:41.000 of France on Wednesday
01:38:41.880 will allow easier
01:38:43.140 identification of priests
01:38:44.580 able to lead mass
01:38:45.860 and hear confessions
01:38:46.940 this cannot be real
01:38:48.600 isn't this also
01:38:49.440 a decorum issue
01:38:50.460 you can't just go
01:38:51.060 around scanning
01:38:51.780 priests
01:38:52.460 unless you really
01:38:54.140 have to
01:38:54.580 but look at their
01:38:55.880 history
01:38:57.140 how would this
01:38:59.060 work in practice
01:38:59.840 you see a priest
01:39:00.720 you go up to it
01:39:01.320 with your phone
01:39:01.760 do they just
01:39:02.780 acquiesce to this
01:39:03.800 is there any kind
01:39:04.640 of discourse
01:39:05.480 that takes place
01:39:06.240 could I scan
01:39:07.300 new father
01:39:07.880 does the father
01:39:09.780 get to consent
01:39:11.180 I mean there's
01:39:11.800 all sorts of
01:39:12.340 it's a minefield
01:39:13.180 I just
01:39:13.580 honestly
01:39:14.160 at some point
01:39:15.140 I thought you
01:39:15.820 were going to say
01:39:16.540 like oh it was
01:39:17.820 mentioned at a
01:39:18.580 town meeting
01:39:19.160 you know some
01:39:19.640 of these stories
01:39:20.120 that have got
01:39:20.440 a sort of like
01:39:21.380 fairly baseless
01:39:22.060 this is getting
01:39:22.760 decided at the
01:39:23.800 highest level
01:39:24.300 this is like
01:39:25.380 the Premier League
01:39:26.040 of noncing
01:39:26.500 the Vatican
01:39:27.680 didn't sign up
01:39:28.460 on this
01:39:28.780 did they
01:39:29.120 there's no way
01:39:30.280 the Vatican
01:39:30.640 they don't want
01:39:31.400 scanning for
01:39:31.900 noncing
01:39:32.200 exactly
01:39:32.940 how are they
01:39:33.560 going to
01:39:33.720 replace
01:39:34.020 their entire
01:39:34.460 workforce
01:39:34.860 so who put
01:39:35.340 this in
01:39:35.640 was this
01:39:35.880 the government
01:39:36.280 was this
01:39:36.620 Macron
01:39:37.080 that was the
01:39:38.200 French church
01:39:38.960 no
01:39:40.420 so here we go
01:39:41.960 members of the
01:39:42.740 public will see
01:39:43.500 either a red light
01:39:44.480 an amber light
01:39:45.200 or a green light
01:39:46.020 upon scanning
01:39:46.700 one of the new
01:39:47.380 cards
01:39:47.760 red lights
01:39:48.560 indicate that a
01:39:49.360 priest has been
01:39:50.060 stripped of their
01:39:50.780 status and cannot
01:39:51.560 perform various
01:39:52.320 clerical duties
01:39:53.220 the database will
01:39:54.460 be updated
01:39:55.440 a standard once a
01:39:57.080 year or immediately
01:39:57.760 in cases of
01:39:58.500 serious misconduct
01:39:59.380 orange lights
01:40:00.620 will indicate that
01:40:01.420 a priest has
01:40:01.940 limited powers
01:40:02.760 due to experience
01:40:03.800 or sanctions
01:40:04.840 so that's a
01:40:05.260 semi-nance
01:40:05.920 so that's someone
01:40:07.820 who's done a bit
01:40:08.380 of noncing
01:40:08.700 so someone's
01:40:10.100 just dabbled
01:40:10.620 in noncing
01:40:11.160 well we don't
01:40:12.400 know
01:40:13.180 it's a
01:40:13.680 Schrödinger's
01:40:14.280 nonce
01:40:14.700 you know
01:40:15.460 when I watched
01:40:16.020 Christmas specials
01:40:16.860 growing up
01:40:17.300 they didn't talk
01:40:20.360 about noncy
01:40:21.100 priests
01:40:21.460 I'll tell you
01:40:21.880 that much
01:40:22.180 when are we
01:40:22.560 doing the
01:40:22.880 song and
01:40:23.160 dance routine
01:40:23.820 you know
01:40:26.580 I just think
01:40:27.320 what do you do
01:40:28.080 with those orange
01:40:28.740 ones
01:40:29.140 no exactly
01:40:29.880 you can't
01:40:30.340 I don't think
01:40:31.320 you should have
01:40:31.620 any kind of
01:40:32.200 system where
01:40:32.600 you have to
01:40:33.020 wear something
01:40:33.920 to show that
01:40:34.500 you're not
01:40:34.880 something terrible
01:40:35.620 it's like
01:40:36.280 do you remember
01:40:36.520 when they tried
01:40:37.080 to introduce
01:40:37.440 the safety pin
01:40:38.240 that you'd put
01:40:38.940 a safety pin
01:40:39.580 on if you
01:40:39.960 weren't a racist
01:40:40.660 and there was
01:40:41.560 a campaign
01:40:42.100 to do this
01:40:42.800 when?
01:40:43.400 that happened
01:40:43.920 I actually know
01:40:45.920 the woman who
01:40:46.460 started it
01:40:47.260 I used to be
01:40:47.720 friends with her
01:40:48.160 when did this
01:40:48.880 happen?
01:40:49.260 it was a while
01:40:49.860 ago
01:40:50.180 I noticed you
01:40:51.860 weren't wearing
01:40:52.260 a pin mate
01:40:52.720 where's your pin
01:40:54.300 mate?
01:40:55.040 why do you hate
01:40:55.960 them?
01:40:56.160 silence is violence
01:40:57.060 complicity
01:40:58.160 the default
01:40:59.360 expectation of a
01:41:00.360 priest should be
01:41:01.160 that he won't
01:41:01.880 commit sexual
01:41:02.920 he or she
01:41:06.160 sorry
01:41:07.080 and also
01:41:07.640 let's look at
01:41:08.220 the facts
01:41:08.620 because we've
01:41:09.020 got to be
01:41:09.300 objective
01:41:09.640 I don't think
01:41:10.140 if you look
01:41:10.540 at the history
01:41:11.020 and the facts
01:41:11.540 that is the
01:41:12.120 basic assumption
01:41:12.760 we should make
01:41:13.320 about priests
01:41:13.620 surely if a
01:41:14.480 priest has a
01:41:15.060 red thing
01:41:15.820 they wouldn't
01:41:16.660 be a priest
01:41:17.100 anymore anyway
01:41:17.680 they would have
01:41:18.980 been ditched
01:41:19.440 it says that
01:41:19.900 so why would
01:41:20.740 you need to
01:41:21.580 scan them?
01:41:22.640 that's a good
01:41:22.820 point
01:41:23.060 do you know
01:41:23.400 the things
01:41:23.740 when you do
01:41:24.400 something like
01:41:24.800 this
01:41:24.980 you sort of
01:41:25.900 war game
01:41:26.440 what could
01:41:26.900 you get in
01:41:27.260 trouble for
01:41:27.720 there's so many
01:41:28.380 subjects where
01:41:28.900 he could have
01:41:29.240 I reckon
01:41:29.640 it'll be
01:41:29.880 this
01:41:30.180 I reckon
01:41:30.940 it'll be
01:41:31.440 comedians
01:41:33.020 not just joke
01:41:34.060 about but
01:41:34.700 endorse nonsense
01:41:35.880 they'll get a
01:41:36.840 little bit of
01:41:37.260 what we said
01:41:37.680 what do you mean
01:41:37.820 we're anti-nons
01:41:39.060 yeah
01:41:39.360 well I mean
01:41:40.520 well you're the
01:41:41.420 woke so you have
01:41:41.900 to go the other
01:41:42.320 side
01:41:42.440 oh Jeff
01:41:43.840 you're woke
01:41:44.340 you've got to
01:41:44.700 be prone
01:41:45.100 they're called
01:41:45.720 maps
01:41:46.080 minor attracted
01:41:46.860 pedophiles
01:41:47.840 yeah
01:41:48.180 is that a thing
01:41:49.600 minor attracted
01:41:50.240 people
01:41:50.660 and there are
01:41:51.300 some activists
01:41:51.740 who want that
01:41:52.200 to be part
01:41:52.520 of LGBTQIA
01:41:53.420 plus
01:41:53.680 at this point
01:41:54.840 it's got to
01:41:55.420 be
01:41:55.440 it's a sexual
01:41:55.860 orientation
01:41:56.300 according to them
01:41:57.020 they can't help
01:41:57.600 it
01:41:57.680 this is a prank
01:41:58.480 you cannot tell
01:42:00.260 me that they're
01:42:00.720 he's seeing his
01:42:01.540 mainstream bookings
01:42:02.400 minor attracted
01:42:03.540 persons
01:42:03.940 map
01:42:04.200 yeah
01:42:04.580 Jeff
01:42:05.100 who's saying
01:42:05.740 this though
01:42:06.140 Jeff relax
01:42:06.500 all these TV shows
01:42:07.400 that you do
01:42:07.780 they're dying anyway
01:42:08.600 welcome
01:42:09.740 I mean the water's
01:42:11.080 lovely
01:42:11.480 what
01:42:11.920 who's saying
01:42:13.220 that that's
01:42:13.780 Jeff your podcast
01:42:14.500 is crushing it
01:42:15.360 look forget about
01:42:16.440 mainstream
01:42:16.820 who is saying
01:42:17.940 that minor attracted
01:42:19.340 persons should be
01:42:20.340 the word instead
01:42:21.160 of nonce
01:42:21.840 the map
01:42:22.480 activists
01:42:23.180 map activists
01:42:23.920 and there are
01:42:24.860 some of them
01:42:25.320 yeah
01:42:25.500 but there always
01:42:26.560 have been
01:42:26.960 I feel like a
01:42:28.200 1976
01:42:28.840 Harriet Harman
01:42:31.620 Labour MP
01:42:32.280 used to be a
01:42:32.960 member of
01:42:33.320 something called
01:42:33.700 the paedophile
01:42:34.160 information exchange
01:42:34.960 well she wasn't
01:42:35.260 a member
01:42:35.520 I think she
01:42:36.000 endorsed or
01:42:37.020 supported or
01:42:37.600 helped
01:42:37.900 something
01:42:38.780 I take that
01:42:40.840 back
01:42:41.040 she didn't
01:42:41.340 used to be
01:42:41.640 a member
01:42:41.880 what was she
01:42:42.380 Andrew
01:42:42.540 I think she
01:42:43.160 appeared at
01:42:44.000 something that
01:42:44.440 they did
01:42:44.820 or at least
01:42:45.420 wrote in
01:42:46.120 support
01:42:46.420 or said
01:42:46.720 something in
01:42:47.080 support
01:42:47.340 she was
01:42:47.860 paedophile
01:42:48.300 information
01:42:48.860 exchange
01:42:49.240 adjacent
01:42:49.700 yeah
01:42:49.960 now we're
01:42:52.500 just playing
01:42:53.000 like cancel
01:42:53.780 minesweeper
01:42:54.500 you know
01:43:00.040 what
01:43:00.280 Jeff's
01:43:00.880 uncomfortable
01:43:01.420 face is the
01:43:02.100 best thing
01:43:02.460 about this
01:43:02.900 this has been
01:43:03.520 the highlight
01:43:03.980 I don't mind
01:43:04.720 canceling stuff
01:43:05.320 the litigious
01:43:06.520 stuff
01:43:06.940 that's the
01:43:07.460 you haven't
01:43:07.900 said anything
01:43:08.380 you haven't
01:43:08.840 said it's us
01:43:09.640 that are going
01:43:10.020 down
01:43:10.220 silence is
01:43:10.580 violence
01:43:10.860 yeah
01:43:11.340 my favourite
01:43:12.400 thing during
01:43:12.960 that whole
01:43:13.280 episode was
01:43:13.960 there was a
01:43:15.140 girl in a
01:43:15.700 t-shirt
01:43:16.020 that said
01:43:16.320 silence is
01:43:16.940 consent
01:43:17.380 yeah
01:43:17.860 and I was
01:43:18.900 like have
01:43:19.200 you applied
01:43:19.680 this to
01:43:20.080 other contexts
01:43:20.980 yeah
01:43:21.840 that wouldn't
01:43:22.320 work with it
01:43:22.860 because it
01:43:24.000 was it was
01:43:24.480 about racism
01:43:25.420 she was
01:43:25.820 saying if
01:43:26.340 you're silent
01:43:27.500 you're consenting
01:43:28.440 complicity
01:43:28.920 yeah but it
01:43:30.200 said consent
01:43:30.780 and you're
01:43:31.080 going if you
01:43:31.800 map this
01:43:32.240 onto other
01:43:32.740 things
01:43:33.000 yeah
01:43:33.860 that's the
01:43:34.880 problem with
01:43:35.220 slogans they
01:43:35.820 sound great
01:43:36.420 when you say
01:43:36.960 them you're
01:43:37.240 like yes and
01:43:38.060 then you think
01:43:38.620 you look
01:43:39.040 you do them
01:43:39.500 down a bit
01:43:40.060 there is a
01:43:40.880 tendency on
01:43:41.740 the left that
01:43:42.220 they do like
01:43:43.240 the progressive
01:43:43.980 left I should
01:43:44.520 say where they
01:43:45.260 like an
01:43:46.360 incantation
01:43:47.180 oh they love
01:43:47.900 it
01:43:48.020 no one's safe
01:43:48.720 till everyone's
01:43:49.460 safe
01:43:49.640 that's not
01:43:51.400 like it's just
01:43:52.420 my logical
01:43:53.000 brain
01:43:53.380 kicks in
01:43:54.060 you go
01:43:54.300 well that's
01:43:54.620 not exactly
01:43:55.700 true
01:43:56.320 you know
01:43:56.640 with
01:43:56.880 something's
01:43:57.660 liberation
01:43:58.120 is everyone's
01:43:58.880 if you go
01:43:59.220 maybe it
01:44:01.240 just feels
01:44:01.760 good to say
01:44:02.440 these little
01:44:03.000 sing song
01:44:03.600 things
01:44:04.140 often these
01:44:05.140 slogans
01:44:05.700 though
01:44:05.920 what's it
01:44:06.560 Robert J
01:44:07.200 Lifton
01:44:07.420 called
01:44:07.600 the thought
01:44:08.040 terminating
01:44:08.580 cliches
01:44:09.180 because you
01:44:10.000 say them
01:44:10.440 in substitute
01:44:11.180 of an
01:44:11.520 argument
01:44:11.880 because the
01:44:13.240 arguments don't
01:44:13.860 stand up
01:44:14.320 so instead
01:44:14.660 just have a
01:44:15.080 slogan
01:44:15.380 and you
01:44:16.300 have to
01:44:16.620 agree with
01:44:17.320 the slogan
01:44:17.680 we were
01:44:18.740 at a
01:44:19.040 pro-Palestine
01:44:19.700 protest
01:44:20.280 by accident
01:44:21.120 we were just
01:44:21.480 walking past
01:44:22.060 and it was
01:44:22.600 interesting to
01:44:23.020 me while
01:44:23.880 Hamas holds
01:44:25.820 hundreds of
01:44:26.480 Jewish Israeli
01:44:27.420 hostages
01:44:28.000 they were
01:44:28.740 chanting
01:44:29.140 no justice
01:44:29.920 no peace
01:44:30.660 yeah
01:44:31.240 and I
01:44:31.680 thought
01:44:31.980 have you
01:44:32.620 thought
01:44:33.000 I mean
01:44:33.600 they haven't
01:44:34.140 thought any
01:44:34.540 of it
01:44:34.760 but then you
01:44:35.900 said there
01:44:36.180 were queers for
01:44:36.700 Palestine
01:44:37.060 there
01:44:37.380 there were
01:44:37.940 there were
01:44:38.000 there were
01:44:38.900 there were
01:44:39.200 actually
01:44:39.420 queers
01:44:39.740 for
01:44:39.880 Palestine
01:44:40.220 I went
01:44:40.920 to another
01:44:41.340 protest
01:44:41.800 a pro-Palestine
01:44:42.540 one which
01:44:42.920 was a smaller
01:44:43.660 one which
01:44:44.100 was you know
01:44:44.760 there's a video
01:44:46.180 on our channel
01:44:46.820 that's I think
01:44:48.060 it's approaching
01:44:48.520 like half a million
01:44:49.100 views now
01:44:49.600 where it was a
01:44:50.740 kind of interesting
01:44:51.500 range of
01:44:52.840 opinions and
01:44:54.140 it wasn't like
01:44:55.280 that silly but
01:44:55.980 the one we saw
01:44:56.680 was like completely
01:44:57.700 incoherent
01:44:58.420 and the arguments
01:44:59.420 completely incoherent
01:45:00.220 anyway we're getting
01:45:00.780 serious again
01:45:01.460 shall we do
01:45:02.400 another frivolous
01:45:03.120 story
01:45:03.520 well I think
01:45:04.380 we should do
01:45:04.660 the gimp thing
01:45:05.380 just because
01:45:05.960 I don't know
01:45:06.460 about this
01:45:06.860 I didn't know
01:45:09.660 that Somerset
01:45:10.200 had gimps
01:45:11.660 well it's very
01:45:12.800 progressive
01:45:13.280 you talk about
01:45:14.300 the BBC
01:45:14.720 with a misleading
01:45:15.800 headline
01:45:16.300 I don't think
01:45:17.080 it's wriggling
01:45:17.820 is the problem
01:45:18.620 I think it's
01:45:19.280 dry humping
01:45:20.000 stuff
01:45:20.440 can you tell
01:45:22.300 me what
01:45:22.540 happened
01:45:22.960 Jeff read
01:45:24.340 the headline
01:45:24.800 if you stick
01:45:25.380 the headline
01:45:25.780 back up
01:45:26.240 Somerset Gardner
01:45:27.840 banned from
01:45:28.680 wriggling in
01:45:29.400 gimp suits
01:45:30.240 excellent
01:45:30.760 that's more of
01:45:31.280 a pirate accent
01:45:32.020 yeah there is
01:45:32.440 more pirate
01:45:32.940 so why do
01:45:34.280 you think
01:45:34.480 this is a
01:45:34.840 very dark
01:45:35.340 story
01:45:35.580 well because
01:45:36.240 this guy
01:45:37.040 you know
01:45:37.440 first it was
01:45:38.020 like there
01:45:38.300 were sightings
01:45:38.820 of a gimp
01:45:39.160 and that was
01:45:39.640 sort of funny
01:45:40.240 yeah the word
01:45:41.240 gimp is funny
01:45:41.860 but it sort of
01:45:42.500 turned out that
01:45:43.020 by and large
01:45:43.700 he was just
01:45:44.080 like making
01:45:44.740 women feel
01:45:45.300 uncomfortable
01:45:45.740 what do you
01:45:46.200 think gimps
01:45:46.660 do
01:45:46.900 you've been
01:45:48.320 around
01:45:48.600 left wing
01:45:49.060 gimp in my
01:45:51.000 mind is a
01:45:51.520 consensual type
01:45:52.600 businessman
01:45:53.200 saying can I
01:45:54.000 be your gimp
01:45:54.460 look at that
01:45:54.900 tell me that
01:45:55.820 picture is not
01:45:56.400 funny
01:45:57.000 was he actually
01:45:58.980 assaulting people
01:45:59.780 no he was
01:46:00.260 just making
01:46:00.620 them uncomfortable
01:46:00.860 yeah but
01:46:01.180 there was a lot
01:46:02.400 of weird breed
01:46:02.980 look I'll put it
01:46:03.680 this way if my
01:46:04.400 wife come home and
01:46:05.080 said that that
01:46:05.880 guy had followed
01:46:06.380 her I'd fucking
01:46:07.040 batter him
01:46:07.700 that's against the
01:46:09.520 lot
01:46:09.640 I don't care
01:46:10.880 what you're doing
01:46:11.520 there is quite
01:46:12.140 literally punching
01:46:13.060 down on
01:46:13.900 I don't care
01:46:14.460 I will happily
01:46:15.480 advocate violence
01:46:16.740 for blokes that
01:46:17.940 follow women in
01:46:18.740 gimp outfits
01:46:19.300 is it legal to
01:46:20.140 walk around in a
01:46:21.140 gimp suit
01:46:21.680 why not
01:46:22.300 well that's what
01:46:23.120 I'm asking
01:46:23.480 why don't we read
01:46:24.160 the fucking article
01:46:24.840 a gardener who
01:46:27.480 terrified women
01:46:28.320 in Somerset
01:46:29.280 in a Somerset
01:46:30.020 village rather
01:46:30.560 has been banned
01:46:31.380 from writhing on
01:46:32.260 the floor in an
01:46:33.220 old black bodysuit
01:46:34.020 in public so I'm
01:46:34.640 guessing it isn't
01:46:35.340 illegal but he's
01:46:36.720 been banned
01:46:37.660 okay yeah so
01:46:38.620 immediately wriggling
01:46:39.640 to writhing
01:46:40.700 writhing
01:46:41.420 writhing should
01:46:42.420 have been in
01:46:42.920 escalation
01:46:43.440 wriggling I think
01:46:45.040 is fine writhing
01:46:45.940 is a step
01:46:46.320 what is this legend's
01:46:47.400 name Joshua Hunt
01:46:48.340 32 was found
01:46:49.680 guilty last week of
01:46:50.760 causing intentional
01:46:51.660 harassment alarm or
01:46:52.940 distress to his
01:46:53.620 victims he has now
01:46:54.860 been handed a
01:46:55.640 sexual harm risk
01:46:56.600 order which
01:46:57.460 prevents him from
01:46:58.200 wearing any type
01:46:59.120 of mask unless for
01:47:00.740 medical reasons the
01:47:02.140 order will be in
01:47:02.900 place for five years
01:47:03.680 so he's not allowed
01:47:04.220 to wear any kind of
01:47:05.020 mask yeah I mean
01:47:06.280 that does seem a
01:47:06.940 bit extreme it's
01:47:06.980 gonna make carnivals
01:47:07.740 so so boring it
01:47:08.860 doesn't sound to me
01:47:09.900 like he'd done
01:47:11.060 anything illegal there
01:47:12.360 I think what's weird
01:47:13.420 there is because
01:47:13.800 they obviously don't
01:47:14.360 understand the mask
01:47:15.100 thing they've just
01:47:15.840 got just any any
01:47:17.300 kind of mask here
01:47:18.420 so they don't
01:47:19.400 understand it I
01:47:21.600 guess I mean
01:47:22.100 first of all you
01:47:22.940 just roll it back
01:47:23.440 down the mask I
01:47:25.020 mean I that
01:47:25.980 doesn't really fit
01:47:26.740 with what I
01:47:27.440 that's more
01:47:27.800 Halloweeny I would
01:47:28.720 say yeah it's a
01:47:29.940 little bit beast of
01:47:30.900 Jersey isn't it
01:47:31.880 it's that sort of
01:47:32.680 like scary fetishy
01:47:34.720 thing I mean but
01:47:35.860 is that illegal I
01:47:37.000 mean if you're going
01:47:37.680 to criminalize that
01:47:38.200 kind of thing do
01:47:38.660 you remember when
01:47:38.940 there was that
01:47:39.240 space of people who
01:47:40.020 dressed up as
01:47:40.800 clowns and chased
01:47:41.700 people with
01:47:42.100 chainsaws yeah that
01:47:43.560 that that to me
01:47:44.400 should is comparable
01:47:45.280 I think there should
01:47:45.920 be something in
01:47:46.260 that but for
01:47:47.020 actual chainsaws
01:47:47.940 I think they did
01:47:48.800 just as a kind of
01:47:49.660 with the chain
01:47:50.220 removed or something
01:47:50.880 but it was like
01:47:51.340 it was like
01:47:52.000 you didn't know
01:47:52.400 that yeah exactly
01:47:53.600 the restrictions on
01:47:54.440 this guy get better
01:47:55.220 among the restrictions
01:47:56.160 imposed Hunt is now
01:47:57.640 banned from being in
01:47:58.920 possession of any type
01:47:59.860 of mask or face
01:48:00.720 covering in a public
01:48:01.500 place so no
01:48:02.300 Palestine protest for
01:48:03.440 him yeah wearing or
01:48:04.860 being in possession of
01:48:06.020 black all-in-one
01:48:07.160 garments in a public
01:48:08.340 place so you can't
01:48:09.300 wear a burqa either
01:48:10.160 crawling wriggling or
01:48:12.120 writhing on the floor
01:48:13.400 in a public place whilst
01:48:15.140 wearing a full body
01:48:16.160 covering clothing that
01:48:17.660 appears like a full body
01:48:18.820 covering and or mask
01:48:20.180 full face and or
01:48:21.500 full face I think
01:48:22.400 this sounds quite
01:48:23.100 authoritarian to me
01:48:24.080 because now you're
01:48:24.540 policing his dress
01:48:25.220 sense but I you
01:48:26.440 know there is that
01:48:27.360 modern thing it's
01:48:28.100 like kink shaming
01:48:30.020 right yeah you should
01:48:31.480 never shame anybody's
01:48:32.440 king yeah you should
01:48:33.620 yeah you should there's
01:48:34.520 some stuff that is
01:48:35.360 utterly depraved I'm
01:48:36.440 happy to go like a
01:48:37.320 1950s conservative on
01:48:38.660 this he needs bloody
01:48:40.040 help he's wrong in the
01:48:41.400 head if that's how he
01:48:42.860 gets his kicks yeah I
01:48:44.220 think you should be on
01:48:44.640 a fucking watch this
01:48:45.440 this is the exact
01:48:46.240 opposite of what the
01:48:47.280 BBC have promoted
01:48:48.340 did you see this
01:48:48.940 episode of doctors
01:48:49.720 about furries where a
01:48:51.620 guy basically who gets
01:48:52.900 a kick out of dressing
01:48:53.920 as a bear is thrown
01:48:55.240 out of his house by
01:48:56.040 his prejudiced old
01:48:57.960 grandfather and then
01:48:59.380 he goes to a night
01:49:00.320 club and takes the
01:49:01.460 grandfather along and
01:49:02.260 then there's someone
01:49:02.820 sitting there dressed
01:49:03.660 as a cow and there's
01:49:04.940 a pig and there's also
01:49:05.840 and the grandfather
01:49:06.540 realizes he just needs
01:49:07.560 to be accepting it
01:49:08.440 wouldn't be the first
01:49:09.200 bear in night club
01:49:09.920 boom I was gonna say
01:49:12.360 with people like
01:49:16.120 furries that's a
01:49:16.700 Christmas special
01:49:17.380 yeah exactly with
01:49:19.400 people like furries
01:49:20.500 there's a kind of
01:49:21.480 sympathy that I have
01:49:22.440 for them because
01:49:22.920 there's a moment when
01:49:24.120 you're young where
01:49:24.660 you're discovering your
01:49:25.520 sexuality where you
01:49:26.480 were finding out what
01:49:27.240 it is that you like
01:49:27.960 and what you don't
01:49:28.660 like can you imagine
01:49:30.020 realizing that you
01:49:31.560 really like it when
01:49:32.920 your partner gets
01:49:33.920 gets into a cow suit
01:49:35.800 and you're in a bear
01:49:36.680 outfit yeah but it's
01:49:38.460 something you keep to
01:49:39.380 yourself isn't it
01:49:40.440 you should be ashamed
01:49:41.980 of it
01:49:42.240 yeah I go straight
01:49:43.860 to the therapist
01:49:45.220 I go right
01:49:45.900 something's gone
01:49:46.520 wrong here
01:49:47.280 why do I like this
01:49:48.780 there's a big furry
01:49:49.560 community now you
01:49:50.540 know it's it's
01:49:51.840 it's kind of a big
01:49:52.500 it's the next civil
01:49:53.140 rights issue
01:49:53.720 I'm definitely gonna
01:49:54.140 leave this with more
01:49:54.740 questions than answers
01:49:55.560 the education of
01:49:56.980 Jeff Norco is a
01:49:57.920 progress here
01:49:58.680 do you know Jeff
01:49:59.320 this has been
01:49:59.920 beautiful mate
01:50:00.700 it's just watching
01:50:01.700 a mind slowly
01:50:02.360 my man slowly have
01:50:03.380 his mind blown
01:50:04.180 I want to sit in
01:50:04.780 my little middle
01:50:05.500 England bubble
01:50:06.300 you know getting a
01:50:08.340 bit cross about
01:50:09.080 something
01:50:09.420 I'm not diet
01:50:10.080 gammon I like to
01:50:10.880 think of myself as a
01:50:11.600 diet gammon
01:50:12.140 not the full
01:50:12.720 the low sodium
01:50:13.740 gammon yeah
01:50:14.460 well too late
01:50:16.020 well on that happy
01:50:17.000 note gentlemen we're
01:50:18.200 gonna head over to
01:50:19.360 our supporters where
01:50:20.440 we're gonna talk about
01:50:21.200 our predictions for
01:50:22.220 2024 and catch up on
01:50:24.680 a bunch of other
01:50:25.160 stuff so that is
01:50:26.140 gonna be extra
01:50:26.800 special content and
01:50:27.940 we're gonna be wearing
01:50:29.020 weird hats as well
01:50:30.180 yeah we've got all sorts
01:50:31.100 of Christmas
01:50:31.500 before we go let's get
01:50:33.460 them out for the
01:50:34.020 lads
01:50:34.300 earlier what are we
01:50:35.180 wearing
01:50:35.300 get them out for
01:50:35.880 the lads
01:50:36.240 here we go
01:50:36.860 there we go
01:50:37.480 can I have the
01:50:38.440 antlers
01:50:38.980 I thought Jeff bags
01:50:40.840 you the antlers
01:50:41.260 no he's got the
01:50:42.060 yeah yeah
01:50:42.660 but that goes on
01:50:43.480 there doesn't it
01:50:44.020 oh does it
01:50:44.740 I mean this isn't
01:50:45.940 especially festive on
01:50:47.220 its own
01:50:47.560 here we go
01:50:48.560 it's just a
01:50:49.280 I'm not wearing
01:50:51.060 is this a wig or
01:50:52.080 a beard
01:50:52.480 that's a beard
01:50:54.040 you should go to
01:50:56.000 because it'll go
01:50:56.620 it'll go with your
01:50:57.260 trim baby
01:50:57.720 he's given me a
01:50:59.580 just stop oil t-shirt
01:51:00.620 which I'm not gonna
01:51:01.260 wear
01:51:01.560 I mean this is
01:51:02.880 got to be the
01:51:03.380 weirdest recorder
01:51:04.080 we've gone right
01:51:04.720 from the most
01:51:05.160 serious issues and
01:51:05.880 I've ended wearing
01:51:06.480 a fucking deer stalker
01:51:07.620 alright head on
01:51:08.880 over to locals and
01:51:10.060 check out the bonus
01:51:10.880 content there
01:51:11.840 Santa's always been
01:51:13.620 fetishy
01:51:14.440 how do you mean
01:51:15.180 well because he
01:51:16.360 comes down your
01:51:17.220 chimney at night
01:51:17.980 no I didn't mean
01:51:19.920 that in a sexual
01:51:20.660 way
01:51:20.920 yeah
01:51:21.380 I mean that's
01:51:23.100 a fantasy