TRIGGERnometry - Comedians Review 2023 - Andrew Doyle & Geoff Norcott X TRIGGERnometry

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00:01:21.380 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:24.720 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:25.900 I'm Constance and Kissin.

00:01:27.040 This is, of course, our year review special.

00:01:29.700 It has been a brilliant year in Clown World and there's no one better to discuss it than our two favourites,

00:01:34.780 satirist and presenter Andrew Doyle and comedian Jeff Norcott.

00:01:37.480 Welcome both back to the show.

00:01:38.740 You're looking at each other weirdly.

00:01:40.260 It's slightly uncomfortable.

00:01:41.080 It's not weirdly, that's sexual tension.

00:01:43.360 Because we only ever see each other over Zoom, don't we normally?

00:01:45.880 We do, yeah, on podcasts and the like.

00:01:47.820 And I was thinking, this is actually, because a lot of people watch this and go,

00:01:50.840 oh, here we go, you know, there's not much diversity here.

00:01:53.720 But...

00:01:54.040 We don't do diversity at Trigonometry, mate.

00:01:55.740 But, having said that, I was going to point at you and go Jew, but that sounds bad.

00:01:59.680 No, no, it's apt for the current moment, mate.

00:02:01.580 You are Jewish?

00:02:02.420 We've even got a little Palestinian scarf if you want to wear it.

00:02:04.620 Yeah.

00:02:05.680 Latino?

00:02:06.460 Yeah.

00:02:07.300 And then...

00:02:08.200 Homosexual?

00:02:09.180 Homosexual.

00:02:09.860 And then, just gammon.

00:02:11.660 Gammon, yeah.

00:02:12.680 Yeah, so...

00:02:13.200 The way you said homosexual, Andrew...

00:02:14.840 Was there a slight element of judgment about it?

00:02:16.900 No, no, no.

00:02:17.660 I judge myself for my inclination.

00:02:19.540 I would have just...

00:02:20.120 I thought you'd just say gay, but, you know, homosexual.

00:02:22.800 No, homosexual.

00:02:23.160 Just say gay.

00:02:24.300 I think we should reclaim sodomite.

00:02:26.720 That's what I'm going with.

00:02:28.180 Well, that's just...

00:02:28.820 Not just the gays.

00:02:29.820 I mean, anyone...

00:02:31.060 Oh, that's true.

00:02:31.780 That's true.

00:02:32.060 Yeah.

00:02:33.080 You straight people steal everything from us.

00:02:34.920 Yeah.

00:02:35.180 Well, that is kind of true.

00:02:36.480 And I like the way you said homosexual, as if to say there are two sexes, and I'm attracted

00:02:40.220 to the same sex.

00:02:40.940 That's right.

00:02:41.360 Yeah, exactly.

00:02:41.940 Because same-sex attracted has become a dog whistle.

00:02:44.280 Yeah.

00:02:44.560 Apparently.

00:02:45.280 A right-wing dog whistle.

00:02:46.380 We'll talk about all of that.

00:02:48.180 We've got lots of stories from the year that we've picked out to talk about.

00:02:51.600 Believe it or not, the most upvoted story that we had was actually about Nicola Sturgeon,

00:02:56.120 which we'll come to in a minute.

00:02:57.280 Yeah.

00:02:57.420 But sort of working our way back chronologically, we could talk about Nihal Athanayaki and diversity

00:03:03.440 that you brought up.

00:03:04.220 Or we could talk about October 7th and the response, which has obviously been the biggest

00:03:07.420 story in recent weeks.

00:03:09.120 So what did you guys make of that?

00:03:11.120 And what...

00:03:11.700 I mean, Andrew, you've been warning for ages about the left going loopy.

00:03:15.700 Yeah.

00:03:16.640 Sort of gone really loopy now.

00:03:18.200 Well, that's the thing about what has happened since October 7th, is that there are elements

00:03:23.320 of the left that have exposed themselves in horrendous ways.

00:03:27.200 I was genuinely surprised by all of this stuff, this kind of overt expressions of anti-Semitism

00:03:33.260 on the streets of London, people calling for jihad, and then other people making excuses

00:03:37.600 for them as though a jihad was just something sweet that you did, something nice.

00:03:41.940 Did you actually see the Met Police when Hizbut Tahrir, which is a group who are outlawed

00:03:46.060 in most Arab countries, calling for jihad in London?

00:03:49.020 The Met Police put out a tweet saying, yeah, but jihad doesn't necessarily mean holy war.

00:03:52.980 It can mean lots of other things.

00:03:54.280 It can mean a kind of face massage or yoga retreat or something.

00:03:57.620 I don't know what they meant, but it was absolutely nuts that they were doing that.

00:04:01.200 It's like, no, stop making excuses for the very worst kind of people.

00:04:05.520 And we saw it again.

00:04:06.300 And I know there's always a few bad apples in any protest, but there seem to be a lot

00:04:10.120 of rotten apples.

00:04:11.360 You know, a lot of people being very explicit.

00:04:13.240 What I thought was interesting was the evolution of the word sort of Zionist, because if you

00:04:18.040 get like sort of far right loons, they at least can, they know that racist words are

00:04:23.080 bad words.

00:04:23.640 So if the camera's on them, they'll go and they'll check themselves and then they'll

00:04:26.860 say a different word potentially, right?

00:04:28.720 But then there is this sort of blind spot on the other side, which is where you go Zionist.

00:04:32.880 I know what it used to mean.

00:04:34.160 I do feel now that it just, in a lot of cases, it just means Jewish person, you know?

00:04:37.920 And it's this kind of like workaround that they've got where they could almost get the

00:04:42.220 far right in and have a seminar and go, look, we've been doing some incredible work out

00:04:45.680 here and we've realised we found another word you can use and claim that it's not racist.

00:04:50.840 I mean, it has been an astonishing thing.

00:04:53.000 I think there is like, you know, what's happening over there is one thing, but like, I know this

00:04:57.980 country and I know that what I've seen since October the 7th has been startling.

00:05:02.940 There's just been this hierarchy, hasn't there, that the, well, if you want to call them the

00:05:07.960 woke, they always had this idea that there were different oppressed groups and that they're

00:05:11.120 on a different level of the hierarchy and Jews were always privileged.

00:05:14.880 And so they can't bring themselves, even when there's a massacre of over a thousand Jewish

00:05:18.800 people, they can't bring themselves to say, this is anti-Semitic, this is a pogrom, that

00:05:22.760 whatever, they have to whitewash it and work around it.

00:05:24.880 I find that an incredible blind spot.

00:05:27.180 Well, I mean, because the word was used in a lot of cases was like minimising, you know?

00:05:31.040 And it's like, it's almost like from the makers of microaggressions comes macroaggressions.

00:05:36.140 Oh, macroaggressions.

00:05:37.200 So there has been a subversion of a lot of the things that we were told over the last

00:05:41.160 few years were important.

00:05:43.780 And I do think, you know, there is that thing when you look at what's happening, a lot of

00:05:48.520 people would sort of say, given what happened, you know, the Israeli state, you know, had to

00:05:52.860 do something.

00:05:53.600 You can't let your civilians feel like that on an ongoing basis.

00:05:55.780 There's also the issue of the concentration of population in Gaza and whether or not the

00:06:00.880 maximum care has been taken to protect civilians.

00:06:04.180 You know, that's definitely up for debate.

00:06:06.420 But it's very hard as someone like me to know enough about that to comment with total confidence.

00:06:12.060 But like I say, when you look at what's happened repeatedly on the streets of London, you know,

00:06:17.200 I've got Jewish friends who aren't like, you know, they're not prone to like dramatism or

00:06:23.080 anything like that. But they've said that they don't want to go in central London anymore,

00:06:26.860 particularly at weekends. And that in, you know, 2023 is bad.

00:06:30.960 Andrew, and the point about what Jeff makes about, you know, who knows what's happening

00:06:35.280 over there. I don't think any of the four of us are Middle East peace process experts

00:06:39.860 exactly. But the reaction domestically has been the thing that I think has opened a lot

00:06:45.660 of people's eyes. And we saw it recently with these presidents or whatever they are,

00:06:49.920 of these major American universities being asked in a hearing is calling for genocide

00:06:55.780 of the Jews' harassment. And they were, well, it depends on the context, which I actually

00:07:02.000 would sort of be fine with if that had been consistent throughout the last seven years.

00:07:06.780 Whereas these people have been like, oh, you asked me where I'm from.

00:07:10.500 I mean, they've kicked out students and professors for microaggressions and less,

00:07:15.720 you know. So, you know, these are people who have been rigidly policing speech on campus

00:07:20.480 and say that there are very, very clear violations of code of conducts. And actually,

00:07:23.900 it's based on the perception of individuals. So if people perceive that they are offended

00:07:27.860 or upset, then you're going to be punished for that. But calling for the genocide of Jews,

00:07:32.720 that requires a bit more context, a bit more discussion.

00:07:35.520 What is the argument? It's like, as long as you don't do the genocide.

00:07:38.660 That's what it's said.

00:07:39.380 Yeah, that's it.

00:07:40.460 Act it out.

00:07:41.020 Quite a hard thing to carry out. So, you know, you have to, it's just, you know, that

00:07:44.640 in any other kind of historical kind of grievance against a race of people, that those rules

00:07:50.880 wouldn't have been applied. And it's, again, it's like from the makers of words of violence

00:07:54.360 comes words of violence.

00:07:55.500 Words of just words.

00:07:56.420 That's what I wish that the, whoever was doing the questioning in Congress had said.

00:08:00.280 Yeah.

00:08:00.580 Just, okay, then in that case.

00:08:01.900 But from the makers of words of violence.

00:08:04.080 No, not a Jeff Norcott routine.

00:08:05.480 If she'd have just said, you know, well, is it okay to call for the mass murder of gay

00:08:11.820 people, for instance? Is it okay to call for the genocide of black people? Is that, and

00:08:16.140 to put that question to them, they would immediately have to say no, no, no. And then you get to

00:08:19.600 the Jews. It's like context. So, you know, it's, it's the double standards. I think that

00:08:23.500 bothers everyone, you know? I mean, you could say, you could take an absolute free speech

00:08:26.840 line and say anything should be able to be said on university campus, but they should

00:08:30.320 apply it. Not just, not just, you know, they can't fall back on a free speech defense

00:08:33.900 where they've been so terrible at upholding free speech standards in the past. It just

00:08:37.680 doesn't work.

00:08:38.440 Why is it worse to say that there are two biological sexes and men can't become women? Why is that

00:08:45.300 worse than calling for genocide of the Jews?

00:08:48.000 Because we're dealing with an ideology that is internally inconsistent and incoherent. So

00:08:52.840 it doesn't, you know, you're, you're looking for rationality where none can possibly exist.

00:08:57.580 But the thing that I find bizarre is that surely that is so obvious that anybody would look

00:09:03.660 at that and go, yeah, I mean, this doesn't make sense.

00:09:06.340 Yeah. You would think.

00:09:08.880 The one thing I wonder, you know, on this panel, there is, there is a chance I'll be the woke

00:09:13.440 one.

00:09:13.820 Yeah.

00:09:14.260 I think so.

00:09:14.980 You are the woke one.

00:09:16.160 You're still in the comedy industry, Jeff.

00:09:17.800 Tell us your pronouns.

00:09:18.520 I used to, I used to have edge, I used to have edge once upon a time, but I do think,

00:09:22.480 you know, as, as we're talking like, you know, time of recording, you know, the number,

00:09:26.100 the death toll in Gaza, I mean, whether or not people take those numbers at face value,

00:09:30.700 you know, we talk about serious numbers, even if it was half that actually in a short

00:09:34.140 space of time.

00:09:34.780 So I am conscious of this thing of, and some people will call it like a mealy mouth of trying

00:09:40.320 to militate between all of these things, between concern for British Jews, between understanding

00:09:45.940 why any nation under the experience what happened on October the 7th would have to react, but

00:09:50.260 also whether or not what's happening is something that historically, you know, we might look back

00:09:54.760 at and go, was, was maximum care taken?

00:09:57.620 Is, is it for us to say, I mean, there was a report in the Lancet that, that seemed to

00:10:01.600 corroborate, you know, the, the health authority.

00:10:03.880 Now it is a Hamas health authority.

00:10:06.360 So it's really hard.

00:10:08.140 And there's a lot of times where people have said, well, if you give a nuanced answer to

00:10:11.860 this, well, you're an enemy or you're complicit in one side or the other.

00:10:15.120 But I mean, this is a historical grievance.

00:10:17.660 It's, it's all about nuance, you know, in a way.

00:10:20.080 The one thing there's no nuance about is what happened on October the 7th and, and that

00:10:24.420 attack was so designed to be disturbing, right?

00:10:27.200 It was, it was, it was set up and predicated and designed to disturb and appall and traumatize

00:10:32.920 people, you know, in, in a way.

00:10:34.800 And what's been odd since is people acting like that wasn't in a way the intention of

00:10:38.840 it.

00:10:39.140 That's my view.

00:10:39.760 I mean, my, my concern about that is I think you can have nuanced discussions about,

00:10:42.880 you know, is the Israeli government doing enough to prevent civilian deaths, et cetera.

00:10:47.020 You can have a discussion about the history.

00:10:48.580 You can talk about the establishment of, of Israel in the forties and whether, you know,

00:10:51.920 there were atrocities committed at that time, et cetera, all of those things.

00:10:54.580 You can have that conversation without just being completely blind to the sheer medieval

00:10:58.720 barbarism of what went on on October the 7th.

00:11:01.000 Why can we not all agree that the mass murder, rape and torture of, of civilians is just horrendous

00:11:06.200 and wrong?

00:11:06.740 Why do we have to obfuscate?

00:11:08.840 That doesn't need, that's my point.

00:11:10.040 There's not a moral equivalent.

00:11:11.560 There's really not a moral equivalent.

00:11:12.880 You know, you're dealing with a group of people, Hamas, who are genocidal.

00:11:16.240 They are explicitly, they tell you, they say they want to wipe Jews from the planet.

00:11:19.780 They want to wipe the state of Israel away.

00:11:21.940 They film themselves murdering and raping and torturing and put it out there and boast

00:11:26.900 about it.

00:11:27.700 And then we say there's a moral equivalence between the IDF who, you know, if they were

00:11:32.920 trying to commit genocide, wouldn't be, you know, showering the country with leaflets to

00:11:37.280 say, get out so that you don't get killed.

00:11:39.000 There isn't a moral equivalence between a terrorist group that targets civilians for

00:11:45.480 rape, torture and murder and a military response to that, that actually goes out of its way

00:11:51.300 to avoid civilian death.

00:11:53.140 That is short.

00:11:54.060 Where do we reach the point where those things are comparable?

00:11:56.040 Because I don't think they are.

00:11:57.100 Right.

00:11:57.280 And I also think it's important.

00:11:58.580 I mean, coming back to what you're saying, Jeff, is to emphasize that I don't think any

00:12:01.780 of us has a particularly strongly expressed position on how Israel was created or the

00:12:09.040 right military tactics, because I don't think any of us really are qualified to talk about

00:12:13.280 that effectively.

00:12:14.360 What I think we're talking about is the reaction domestically.

00:12:17.420 And I think it tells you a lot about the state of our society, that people are making,

00:12:21.780 A, that moral equivalence.

00:12:22.920 I also think, you know, Jeff will probably cringe as the work one on the panel, but it

00:12:26.960 tells you about the impact of mass immigration on our societies.

00:12:29.580 Particularly from countries where people are coming in with values that are just so alien

00:12:34.780 to our own.

00:12:36.320 But I wouldn't cringe in the way, I think that what you have is like groups of people

00:12:39.860 that have priorities now.

00:12:41.440 And also, they're like a cohort in the electorate that actually, there's a lot of politicians

00:12:45.920 that are getting elected, saying, we will represent you.

00:12:48.380 And then at the point where there's an issue that they all care about, they're going, all

00:12:51.380 right, represent us.

00:12:52.220 And that's where it became tricky for the Labour Party, because they go, oh, you know, it's

00:12:57.160 nuanced.

00:12:57.600 And they're saying, well, not for us, that's why we voted for you.

00:13:00.240 We thought that you would represent exactly what we thought.

00:13:02.800 We thought you were the Muslim candidate.

00:13:04.120 Yeah.

00:13:04.320 Why are you doing what Muslims want?

00:13:05.900 Well, I would believe more in a responsible sort of form of politics where it's left to

00:13:11.180 that point.

00:13:11.500 They're not a delegate.

00:13:12.340 It's not like a union thing where you're tasked and you have to have one opinion on

00:13:15.920 that issue.

00:13:16.480 But I think that those, these are fault lines we've never crossed in British politics before.

00:13:20.640 It's sectarianism.

00:13:21.560 Yeah.

00:13:21.780 There is something very interesting in what you raise as well, in terms of our commitment to

00:13:25.660 liberal values in this country, because a lot of people on the anti-woke side are talking

00:13:30.180 about, are advocating very sort of anti-liberal perspectives now about deportations, about

00:13:35.300 the idea that we just cannot tolerate the intolerant.

00:13:38.100 And therefore we have to impose these.

00:13:41.360 And I, I, I'm not so, you know, ban protests, for instance, arrest people for hate speech.

00:13:46.900 And I just think if we're not, you know, steadfast in our commitment to say anyone should be able

00:13:51.680 to protest, anyone should be able to say whatever they want, even if we find it abhorrent.

00:13:55.360 I think this has been a real test.

00:13:57.000 All of this stuff has been a huge test.

00:13:58.960 Yeah, it has.

00:13:59.260 It comes back to the point about the universities though, Andrew, because you, if you have a

00:14:04.260 situation where a bunch of police officers are exchanging WhatsApp messages and they

00:14:08.720 get prosecuted for that, if someone goes and pray silently outside an abortion clinic and

00:14:13.560 they get prosecuted for that, if someone tweets a transphobic inverted commas limerick and

00:14:18.980 they get arrested for that.

00:14:20.280 And then you have people openly calling for jihad on mass in the streets of London.

00:14:24.980 I don't think it's unreasonable for people at that point to be like, why didn't we see

00:14:29.300 some consistency here?

00:14:30.400 Yeah, I think the public and the British public generally got a fairly good sense of fair play.

00:14:34.200 Some of the interesting stuff coming out of the protest has been like people have said,

00:14:37.440 well, there was 300,000 people.

00:14:39.140 And so relatively there wasn't much of this.

00:14:41.440 We go, well, 1% of 3000 is still a lot, you know, 300,000 is still 3000.

00:14:46.280 That's a lot of people doing anti-Semitic stuff.

00:14:48.720 So that's interesting though, because I've had this debate with a few people about, do you

00:14:52.220 remember when there was that trans pride rally in London and a trans activist stood up and

00:14:57.060 said, if you see a turf, punch her in the fucking face and the whole crowd cheered.

00:15:02.000 Now for me, that suggests a normalization within that movement of violence against women.

00:15:06.340 It's not, you know.

00:15:07.220 And it's incitement to violence as well.

00:15:08.960 Well, there's that as well.

00:15:09.640 So what I would say, and people would say, yeah, but you can't tar everyone with the

00:15:13.260 same brush.

00:15:13.620 But I'm like, if I were at a protest and someone stood up and called for violence and most of

00:15:17.780 the crowd cheered, I would think I'm probably in the wrong movement here.

00:15:21.180 I think that's the point is that anti-Semitic signs, right?

00:15:24.140 Why aren't people grabbing them and saying, don't do that.

00:15:26.300 You're going to bring our movement into this review.

00:15:27.620 Why is it tolerated?

00:15:28.780 I think you're right.

00:15:29.680 Like there was a time when that's, you know, people on the progressive left were saying,

00:15:33.620 well, what are you adjacent to?

00:15:34.840 And that's what people sometimes said to me about voting Brexit was like, well, who,

00:15:38.120 you know, look, who else voted for that?

00:15:40.340 Look who else was in favor of that.

00:15:41.940 And then suddenly those things are less important.

00:15:44.480 I mean, there's been like a very, you know, there's been, it's true that 300,000 people

00:15:49.140 is a lot of people.

00:15:49.780 And 1% isn't a lot, but like, that's so many different incidents.

00:15:52.740 And then the police, the police have done this weird approach to policing it, whereby

00:15:55.740 it's almost like tag them in.

00:15:57.540 It's almost like a classic modern social media thing.

00:15:59.720 Do you know who this guy is?

00:16:00.700 Tag him in.

00:16:01.340 Like, no police in the moment, please, because you cannot, it's got, justice has got to be

00:16:06.860 applied without fear or favor.

00:16:08.260 So if you're saying, well, we don't want to arrest that person there because we're worried

00:16:11.020 about what would happen next.

00:16:12.540 You can't do that.

00:16:13.740 If in other situations you would weigh in and it's been, yeah, it has been an eye opener

00:16:18.440 in a way, but like, I wonder if like, like Brexit, where our institutions were tested

00:16:23.400 and actually whatever you think about Brexit, they sort of did survive it in a way is that

00:16:27.900 these are sort of conversations that we needed to have.

00:16:30.900 Obviously the reason we're having them is, is, is dreadful, but we're finding out a lot

00:16:34.500 more about what Britain is in 2023.

00:16:36.960 And there's also something as well, which people don't discuss because they don't know

00:16:41.080 enough about it.

00:16:41.960 So a little bit of background.

00:16:42.960 My grandfather was from Lebanon, so he was an Arab and he was, but he was Christian, but

00:16:48.120 he associated Israel with Jews and he was vehemently anti-Semitic and wanted Israel to be got rid

00:16:56.880 of because it was partly because he saw it as an abomination, what I, what happened to

00:17:02.880 the Palestinian people.

00:17:04.000 But a large part of it was because he was anti-Semitic.

00:17:07.900 And the reality is that if you actually ask a lot of people in that crowd, what their opinion

00:17:14.380 is of Jewish people and they were honest, it's quite unpleasant because look, the history

00:17:21.280 is a history and it is complicated, but there is also a large dollop of racism and hatred

00:17:26.480 that is also mixed into this issue, which if people are honest and they won't be, it

00:17:31.740 is impossible to disentangle.

00:17:34.020 It'd be good if they were willing to apply, because I think a lot of people, I think a

00:17:38.880 lot of those people on those marches weren't anti-Semites, but I think they're willing

00:17:42.020 to sort of block out, like they're wearing blinkers if they, if it's going on to sort

00:17:46.700 of deny that it's there.

00:17:48.460 And, and they also play, they're playing these word games.

00:17:51.080 You know, you have people openly calling for intifada and you can say, yes, well, technically

00:17:55.460 speaking, that word just means an uprising against injustice.

00:17:59.080 Okay, fine.

00:17:59.720 But then you have to blind yourself to the, the connotations of that word.

00:18:04.140 You know, we think of the intifada, people in Israel think of the intifada, they think

00:18:07.100 of mass murder of civilians, terrorist acts, and you can't just pretend and wish away those

00:18:11.220 connotations.

00:18:12.220 These sort of word games, like I just can't bear it.

00:18:14.140 Well, that was another problem, wasn't it?

00:18:15.400 Where for a while we were told that whatever people from a community felt about a word or phrase,

00:18:20.220 believe them, you know, hear their words, all this stuff.

00:18:22.720 And then when you get to the river, the sea is going, yeah, but they're a bit sensitive,

00:18:26.340 you know.

00:18:27.340 You know, again, there's this, there's this complete, there's this complete flip.

00:18:31.400 I mean, I do wonder as well with the protests, whether to a degree, there's like, there is

00:18:35.640 a lot of anger, I think, post COVID, I've never known in this country that a lot of different

00:18:39.540 people are angry about a lot of different things.

00:18:41.340 So it's just like, this is the thing you go down Saturday, this is the issue through,

00:18:44.960 and I'm not saying people aren't emotionally invested in this, but for some people, it's just

00:18:48.480 a way of expressing, expressing like a broad anti-establishment sentiment.

00:18:52.700 And some of it, you know, is passionately felt, but there's also been proper people's

00:18:57.280 front of Judea moments.

00:18:58.520 There was, I mean, I don't know if you saw the clip in McDonald's, where obviously people

00:19:02.280 were told to get out for McDonald's.

00:19:04.060 And there's this one lad on the loud hailer, and he was going like, everyone, get out of

00:19:08.120 the McDonald's.

00:19:08.620 And there was a lot of people with Palestinian flags who were going, no, like, we're getting

00:19:13.340 chicken nuggets.

00:19:13.960 And you can see him sort of realise that no one's going to leave, and he's going, and

00:19:18.100 then he goes, unless you're going to use the toilets, I suppose.

00:19:21.880 Like, his belief in the cause was way for Finn, and then his mate, she said, the thing is,

00:19:26.080 the toilets in here don't even work.

00:19:27.500 I thought, well, how would you know if you hadn't been here?

00:19:29.900 You know, so there's been this thing where some of it is vicious, some of it is the usual

00:19:35.660 protest crowd.

00:19:36.820 And then some of it, like these people who were shouting and people coming outside of McDonald's,

00:19:40.380 like, shame on you.

00:19:41.720 You go, they're sort of laughing as they're doing it.

00:19:44.260 It's just, it's shits and giggles for some.

00:19:47.040 Don't you think it's also that thing of, there's a sense of it's compulsory.

00:19:50.220 So if you have that mindset, the woke mindset, you have to follow a certain set of beliefs.

00:19:54.680 But like, when it comes to the Palestine-Israel conflict, they just know automatically which

00:19:57.960 side they're on, even if they don't know nothing about what's going on.

00:20:00.640 I mean, we've seen people interviewed about river to the sea.

00:20:02.840 What river, what sea are they talking about?

00:20:04.540 They don't know.

00:20:05.320 Or they're interviewing someone about what happened on October the 7th.

00:20:07.780 Oh, did something happen?

00:20:08.720 You know, they don't know.

00:20:09.520 So it reminds me of the Brexit thing where all my lefty friends who had no interest in

00:20:15.240 the EU, never expressed an opinion on it in their life, suddenly started waving the EU flag

00:20:20.200 or painting their faces in EU colours.

00:20:22.100 It's like, you don't really care about this.

00:20:23.480 You just know that in this world, that's the good side and you're on the good side.

00:20:27.640 So therefore, you have to do that.

00:20:29.240 Is that true of like, on both sides of whatever the culture war would be supposed to be?

00:20:33.100 So if someone says to you, like, they don't like Meghan Markle, you can kind of then go,

00:20:38.220 well, you probably don't like Greta.

00:20:39.760 You probably do like Top Gear.

00:20:41.520 You know, like, I think you're right.

00:20:43.480 There's almost like, for some people, and whatever the culture war is, there's almost like

00:20:47.640 this kind of standard raft of opinions.

00:20:50.560 And I think the most interesting people you speak to in Britain in 2023 are actually the

00:20:54.160 people that would just surprise you and go kind of like, yeah, you know, I'm pro one

00:20:58.100 issue, but actually, you know, like a proper geezer that, oh, I love a bit of Greta Thunberg.

00:21:02.980 You go, well, okay, well, you might be worth speaking to because I didn't expect you necessarily.

00:21:07.300 That's too important though, isn't it?

00:21:08.300 Like, I hate the fact that I can so often predict someone's opinions on everything if I

00:21:12.420 know their opinion on one thing.

00:21:13.340 Just one thing, yeah, yeah.

00:21:14.320 And that's not the case for most of my friends, actually.

00:21:16.660 I've found that people, most people that I know now are quite surprising, do surprise

00:21:20.320 me every now and then in a position that they take.

00:21:22.760 And speaking, you carry on, Jeff.

00:21:25.040 Well, I was just going to say, like, with Meghan Markle, there is no real reason that

00:21:28.620 if you like Meghan Markle, you should be concerned about the climate crisis.

00:21:32.480 There's no logical reason that connects those, but it's this whole bunch of other stuff that

00:21:36.880 does somehow find itself part of it.

00:21:39.440 We'll get back to the episode in a minute.

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00:23:12.820 And now, back to the interview.

00:23:14.720 Speaking of being surprised, I don't think any of us would have had

00:23:18.240 David Cameron being foreign secretary.

00:23:20.940 No.

00:23:21.220 On our card of whatever the card is for the year.

00:23:24.640 Yeah.

00:23:25.120 No.

00:23:25.940 How?

00:23:26.800 Just when you thought the Tories were running out of ideas,

00:23:30.120 they brought that old thing back.

00:23:32.500 I mean, it's a weird one, isn't it?

00:23:33.820 Because, no, I didn't expect that at all.

00:23:36.420 But it feels like a sign of desperation.

00:23:38.820 Like, they don't really know what else to do at this point.

00:23:41.140 Well, it's kind of weird because James Cleverley was sort of doing a pretty decent job.

00:23:45.200 You know, a lot of people that worked with him said that.

00:23:47.200 And then he gets thrown into that, right, you've got Rwanda, the legal bill,

00:23:51.220 you know the job where you're flying around meeting presidents.

00:23:53.460 No, no, no.

00:23:54.140 That's all done, mate.

00:23:54.900 You've got currently the hardest thing in the Tory party.

00:23:57.820 And then Cameron comes back.

00:23:59.500 It was genuinely the closest to, like, an EastEnders doof-doof moment I've ever seen.

00:24:04.220 Like, we go, it's David Cameron.

00:24:05.760 He's like, I'm back in the square.

00:24:08.140 And he...

00:24:09.020 Why do you think he did it?

00:24:10.400 Because I kind of think, like, he was in hiding.

00:24:12.460 He was so embarrassed about Brexit and the pig thing, the pig gate thing,

00:24:17.100 which we've all forgotten.

00:24:18.020 Why aren't people making more of that?

00:24:19.340 You know, but he's come back.

00:24:20.440 Do you think he did that, though?

00:24:21.420 Well, the pig thing?

00:24:22.000 Yeah.

00:24:22.460 Oh, he definitely...

00:24:23.020 I mean, no.

00:24:23.660 No, no, no.

00:24:24.280 To give him his due, the accusation was that he, can I be explicit,

00:24:28.140 fucked a pig's head.

00:24:30.020 Yeah.

00:24:30.500 And that's not true.

00:24:32.060 I wouldn't have thought so, no.

00:24:32.820 No, what he did was he placed his flaccid penis into the dead pig's mouth.

00:24:36.640 See?

00:24:37.340 I mean, who hasn't done that?

00:24:39.400 Morally, they are on different levels.

00:24:40.920 Yeah.

00:24:41.520 But I'm not saying he did, by the way, in case someone's going to sue me.

00:24:44.120 That was the allegation...

00:24:45.960 That he placed his...

00:24:46.680 There was never an allegation that he'd had sex with a dead pig,

00:24:49.380 but it became that he fucked a dead pig.

00:24:50.620 Yeah.

00:24:51.180 That particular dead pig clearly wasn't his type.

00:24:53.800 But that does sound like a university, like, initiation thing.

00:24:57.320 It sounds like something that would have happened, doesn't it?

00:25:01.080 I mean, I think at the time...

00:25:02.920 That won't stand up in court, Andrew, by the way, just so you know.

00:25:05.080 That sounds like something that could have happened, will not stand up in court.

00:25:08.620 Oh, will it not?

00:25:09.120 Okay.

00:25:09.420 Well, I mean, I know he definitely didn't do it, by the way.

00:25:12.700 Yeah.

00:25:14.340 I mean, I...

00:25:15.260 Andrew was there.

00:25:16.000 I think also there was an interesting moment, like, when he stepped out of that car,

00:25:19.960 where you heard the journalist be surprised.

00:25:21.900 And this is just me pushing my agenda here.

00:25:24.000 But Kay, is it Kay Burney?

00:25:25.600 Mm-hmm.

00:25:26.160 She was like, oh, he's put on weight.

00:25:27.920 And I thought, my God, you would not say that about, like...

00:25:30.720 If a male news journalist, broadcaster, anchor, said that about a female politician,

00:25:36.280 you'd go, after the break, that guy won't beat it, right?

00:25:38.840 Yeah.

00:25:39.500 Like, that's how quickly it could happen.

00:25:41.620 Yeah.

00:25:41.860 And I thought, you know, it wasn't the most surprising thing about David Cameron coming back either.

00:25:47.860 It's not really great journalism.

00:25:49.400 I mean, what was really surprising was somebody comes out of the wilderness.

00:25:52.080 I guess it was the only job that had the prestige that he would have come back for.

00:25:56.260 Foreign Secretary is the only one that's got a bit of gladness.

00:25:58.420 Oh, I see. So you think he did it for that?

00:25:59.340 Oh, God, yeah, yeah.

00:26:00.160 And he also, you know, they all want, you know, what is my legacy?

00:26:03.200 And his has got worse and worse ever since he left office.

00:26:05.920 Don't they make a lot of money, though?

00:26:07.240 Like, ex-prime ministers, they do the tools.

00:26:08.840 Oh, they can make speeches.

00:26:09.640 Yeah, but it's not about money.

00:26:10.660 It's about ego.

00:26:11.360 Yeah.

00:26:12.580 It's definitely about ego at this point.

00:26:14.840 What I thought was interesting as well, broadening it out a little bit,

00:26:17.900 is obviously the reason that happened is Suella Breverman made some pretty strong worded comments

00:26:23.020 about two-tier policing, about the protests, about the marches, et cetera.

00:26:27.560 She was removed.

00:26:28.640 She was basically forced out because of that.

00:26:31.680 And that's how we've ended up here.

00:26:32.960 And what seems to me to be the long-term impact of that is the Tory right, which she represents,

00:26:38.740 effectively, is now going to splinter off.

00:26:41.300 Suddenly, the voters to, you know, reform or probably more likely not vote at all.

00:26:45.700 Yeah.

00:26:45.820 We're going to have a general election next year, and I just wonder if this isn't going

00:26:49.940 to be an absolute disaster for the Conservatives.

00:26:52.220 I mean, absolute disaster, it seems like to me.

00:26:54.320 Well, first thing to say, Suella was correct about the two-tier police.

00:26:56.300 Completely.

00:26:56.820 Yeah.

00:26:57.020 That's absolutely right.

00:26:58.080 Yeah.

00:26:58.660 What do the Tories think that they're doing?

00:27:00.560 Who are they trying to placate?

00:27:01.760 Should she, like when you're Home Secretary, I agree that most of the public, or a good portion

00:27:06.320 of the public would see a lot of truth in what she said.

00:27:08.900 But when you're Home Secretary, saying that about the police publicly, also in an article,

00:27:13.880 you do have to have a bit of collective responsibility.

00:27:16.000 Look, I'll be honest, I'm not the biggest Suella fan, but I did feel at that point, she

00:27:20.020 was sort of like a midfielder going in, putting in two-footed tackles under the nose of the

00:27:24.440 ref, going, go on, send me off.

00:27:25.540 But what else can you do?

00:27:26.480 Because if you think about it, when Priti Patel was Home Secretary, when Suella Brogerman,

00:27:30.080 they issue these directives to the police, and the police ignore them, because they are

00:27:33.900 so ideologically captured.

00:27:35.320 Or the same with the civil service.

00:27:36.440 We had a whistleblower recently talking about how, in the civil service, any policy regarding

00:27:40.660 immigration is going to be ignored by the staff members.

00:27:43.320 We just put out an episode with Steve Hilton, former advisor to David Cameron, who basically

00:27:48.140 told us story after story about how they tried to do things, and you just can't, because

00:27:52.460 the civil service will sabotage anything you do that they don't like.

00:27:55.300 Exactly.

00:27:55.760 So if I were Home Secretary, I'd be slagging off the civil service constantly, slagging off

00:27:59.400 the police, going for them publicly, because they, you know...

00:28:01.720 In many ways, I think people saw Suella Brogerman as the one person who was willing

00:28:06.400 to slag off the people that needed slagging off, because nothing gets done.

00:28:10.620 It's just about the realpolitik element of it.

00:28:13.680 Like, you know, like when Cameron said to Jeremy Corbyn, you know, put on a tie and sing

00:28:18.280 the national anthem.

00:28:19.180 You know, when you're Home Secretary, just one of the things that you're going to run

00:28:22.200 into trouble if you do, is if you slag off the police in public.

00:28:24.620 I understand all the reasons that you're saying where the frustration comes from, but it becomes

00:28:28.680 very hard after that to manage, you know, manage relations.

00:28:32.820 And it puts, you know, it puts Rishi in this weird...

00:28:35.520 I've sort of been calling him Brittany Sunak a bit this year, because the amount of costume

00:28:39.380 changes that the geezer has had in the space of a year, you know.

00:28:42.740 He was stability guy, you know, stability Rishi.

00:28:45.700 Then he was, what was it, long-term decisions for a better future guy.

00:28:49.380 Then he was Ulez Rishi.

00:28:50.420 He was like, fuck the climate, you know.

00:28:51.840 Then he was like, and then, and then now he's, then he was the change guy at conference.

00:28:58.800 I am the change candidate.

00:29:00.840 And now he's, well, actually, let's just bring back David Cameron.

00:29:03.700 And it looks like, it looks like bringing your dad to work day.

00:29:06.380 I mean, the thing is, if you're already the prime minister that looks most like an eight-year-old

00:29:10.200 boy, right, I would not have someone who looks like your dad and your uncle come along

00:29:14.920 with you.

00:29:15.620 I mean, I think he's found himself, because the polls haven't changed in a year, he's just

00:29:20.860 found himself lurching.

00:29:22.060 And the impression that the public get, and I think it's a fair one, is that he doesn't

00:29:25.620 really have a core set of principles at this point.

00:29:28.820 But you could say that about Starmer as well.

00:29:30.460 I think that they are two cheeks of the same ass.

00:29:32.840 Yeah.

00:29:33.640 The problem is, though, is going back to the Suella thing, is that what it really means

00:29:38.700 is that democracy doesn't exist.

00:29:42.080 Because people voted for the conservatives because they wanted a government that is conservative,

00:29:47.200 that had conservative policies.

00:29:48.520 But if a conservative government can no longer implement conservative policies, because the

00:29:54.220 blob or whatever, the civil service, whatever you want to call them, refuse to enact them,

00:29:59.480 then what are you left with?

00:30:01.160 So what's going to happen next time then?

00:30:02.500 You know, because Labour will get in, and then the conservative party presumably will shift

00:30:06.160 to the right, because that's what the voting base want.

00:30:08.560 And then you'll get a full-on, hardcore Tory government that does a bonfire of the quangos,

00:30:13.640 but it's a gut to civil service.

00:30:15.860 Bonfire of the quangos does sound like one of those weird films from the 70s starring

00:30:19.720 Paul Newman.

00:30:22.560 Yeah, he did purely for the money.

00:30:24.740 But I disagree.

00:30:26.320 I don't think they will ever...

00:30:27.120 You don't think they'll do it?

00:30:28.280 Because I don't think they can do it.

00:30:30.320 Or they're certainly not the political will to be able to do it, because if you're going

00:30:33.400 to do it, you're going to get into it.

00:30:34.600 It's new, though.

00:30:35.520 I mean, we used to have a program called, like, Yes Minister, Yes Prime Minister.

00:30:39.200 It's this idea of the civil service pushing back for continuity.

00:30:43.280 Maybe it's just something that occurs when either administration flips to the right,

00:30:47.520 or indeed the left-right.

00:30:48.660 But you're right, whether that's democratic or not is another issue entirely.

00:30:52.800 Problem is, with the way the press operate in this country, is that if you talk about

00:30:56.020 civil service, or even if you criticise public health bodies, it's all Trumpian.

00:30:59.820 Or it's Trumpian.

00:31:00.700 I mean, this COVID inquiry has proved it, that there are civil servants with quite clear

00:31:06.580 agendas, you know, that effectively take political decisions.

00:31:10.920 It's fine.

00:31:11.280 If we have that conversation with the British public, and the British public go on fine

00:31:14.160 with that, fine.

00:31:14.700 But we've never had that chat, really.

00:31:16.100 And, Geoff, none of the three of us has really followed the COVID inquiry.

00:31:20.340 What I hear out of it is exactly the opposite of what I wanted to hear out of it.

00:31:23.980 It seems we didn't lock down fast or hard enough, apparently.

00:31:26.860 That's their conclusion.

00:31:27.700 Is that right?

00:31:28.060 Well, the thing was, I thought, is it to inquire what happened?

00:31:32.080 Or is it to prosecute the idea that the government were a shitshow, right?

00:31:35.800 And it's certainly with people like Hugo Keith Casey.

00:31:38.400 That seems to be his focus.

00:31:40.120 And, you know, there's all these salacious WhatsApps.

00:31:42.860 Oh, he called himself a titbuck or a bum wank.

00:31:45.860 Or, you know, and that has been, you know, that has been what's often led the news.

00:31:50.400 Whereas I think genuinely, the interesting thing that comes out of it is how did the instruments

00:31:53.860 of state work under pressure?

00:31:55.740 We know what happened with the government.

00:31:56.780 Most people have come to their conclusions.

00:31:58.520 But the civil service don't come out of it well.

00:32:00.800 And also, a lot of decisions that people fought with the government were actually sage.

00:32:05.060 But because, again, there's this thing in the liberal press whereby, you know, somehow

00:32:08.940 health bodies and the civil service are sacrosanct and never make shit decisions.

00:32:13.160 They never make egotistical decisions.

00:32:14.780 Like, for example, like the Cheltenham Festival, a lot of people were frustrated that that went ahead.

00:32:18.740 That was under sage advice, you know, literally under sage advice.

00:32:22.280 So I actually think that the headlines that have come out of the inquiry have been pitiful, really.

00:32:28.740 Oh, Boris probably shouldn't have shaken someone's patient's hand at the hospital.

00:32:33.520 We're going, we all kind of had that chat around the same time all those celebrities were singing Imagine, you know.

00:32:38.680 And then three years later, this is headline news.

00:32:41.220 I think the much more interesting thing is who, you know, who do we rely on for our health advice?

00:32:46.800 And did they perform under pressure?

00:32:49.300 And don't you think that this is all too little, too late?

00:32:53.620 And it's pointless, isn't it?

00:32:55.800 It's pointless.

00:32:56.740 Well, I don't think it's going to change many people's minds.

00:32:59.580 But, you know, with Sunak's testimony, what was interesting was you finally get this discussion of whether or not, you know, risk versus reward.

00:33:06.640 And I'm sure those questions have been asked, but they've certainly not been the ones that have been leading the news at 10.

00:33:12.340 And the general sort of spirit of it is it should have gone sooner, harder, longer.

00:33:15.960 All these porny, pornographic types, sooner, harder, longer.

00:33:19.700 But actually, you know, if you look at Omicron, it was the opposite.

00:33:22.240 So they say if you're going to make a decision, make it soon, make it hard, make it long.

00:33:25.460 And whereas Omicron, if we'd have done that, we'd have screwed the economy even harder for a lot longer.

00:33:31.340 When actually we found that that was the right decision, was to wait for more evidence.

00:33:35.000 So as you watch the inquiry, do you come away from it going, if there's another pandemic in my lifetime, we're going to smash that one?

00:33:43.920 We, well, I think it'll be more like that show.

00:33:47.200 You've seen The Last of Us, you know, where just everyone.

00:33:50.300 Is that a zombie one?

00:33:50.740 Yeah, yeah, kind of zombie.

00:33:51.920 I think it'll be more like that.

00:33:52.980 It'd just be get a machine gun and head to the hills.

00:33:56.280 Yeah, it just seems like we haven't actually learned any of the actual lessons.

00:34:00.600 I mean, when you look at Sweden, for example, and what they were able to do there, the comparison is night and day to me.

00:34:06.000 And instead of looking at them and going, how could we adjust what we did to get better results?

00:34:10.200 Like you said, it's about prosecuting the politicians who we want to hold guilty.

00:34:15.080 But you won't get compliance, will you, if it happens again?

00:34:17.760 As in people now know that the masks are ineffective, so no one's going to wear masks.

00:34:21.280 You say that, Andrew, I thought you wouldn't get compliance.

00:34:24.360 I never thought the British public would accept this curtain twitching fucking looking, oh, he's gone out for a second walk bullshit.

00:34:32.000 But we all did.

00:34:32.720 Well, there's still a majority, there's still 20% of people think the nightclubs should be shut forever.

00:34:37.440 There's still 10% of people that think that we should have a 10pm curfew.

00:34:46.480 So these people, I think that they would, I think you're right, but I think that there would be less compliance.

00:34:51.620 And this thing about prosecuting an idea, I mean, there's been so much ego from some of the KCs.

00:34:56.860 And he's got this little code, Hugo, Keith, where he sort of says, forgive me, which means I think that's bollocks.

00:35:02.420 But he says, is it not the case?

00:35:04.580 He goes, oh, are you going to tell us what you think now, mate?

00:35:06.600 Is it not the case that that was a shit show?

00:35:09.440 You think, I didn't think, and maybe this is how they work inquiries, maybe it's the first one I've watched closely, but I didn't think it was supposed to be like you've got a theory of everything went wrong and then you essentially cross-examine.

00:35:21.820 I thought you just ask questions maybe, find out what happened.

00:35:25.940 But I guess maybe you have to put them under pressure to get the truth.

00:35:28.780 I think that the problem is with COVID is that it turned us into, like, we all thought, it was like, you know, when you watch England football team, you go, yeah, I could do better than that.

00:35:38.300 You know, everybody thinks that they could have, looking back, thinks that they could have handled it better, whilst at the same time, and look, the government made huge mistakes and I disagree with a lot of what they did.

00:35:49.880 But I also think we forget how terrifying it was.

00:35:53.180 Do you, to cast your mind back to early March, I mean, I don't know about you, but, you know, I was bricking it.

00:35:59.000 Well, I mean, one of the things that...

00:36:00.340 Yeah, you were a lot more of a way back then.

00:36:01.520 Yeah, it's true, mate.

00:36:03.500 One of the things that come out was, like, how quickly things happen.

00:36:07.120 So the idea that's taken root in the public psyche is that the government, like, delayed for a long, long time before locking down.

00:36:13.900 The first mention of lockdown was in early March, something like 7th of March in Cabinet, and lockdown happened on the 13th of March.

00:36:20.000 So it's true that those delays might have caused, you know, like, more deaths and stuff.

00:36:24.000 But in terms of the amount of days, the perception is now that they were just sitting on their arses, Boris the trolley, you know.

00:36:31.380 I mean, there's been some funny stuff that's come out of this, let's be honest.

00:36:34.540 Calling it, calling it.

00:36:35.720 I'll definitely use the idea that a mate that changes his mind a lot is the trolley.

00:36:39.820 I mean, that's a good nickname.

00:36:42.040 Or the fact that a Prime Minister got brought down for having a cake.

00:36:45.660 Well, in the end, it was the Chris Pinscher guy, wasn't it?

00:36:51.160 Oh, it was Pinscher.

00:36:51.920 Yeah, because this is how we remember stuff.

00:36:53.660 We remember the cake.

00:36:54.460 I mean, let's be honest, that weakened him significantly.

00:36:57.380 But...

00:36:57.740 Yeah, sort of forgotten about Pinscher.

00:36:58.840 Yeah, yeah.

00:36:59.480 But the cake is much more...

00:37:00.620 Guys, is this not pathetic?

00:37:02.680 What?

00:37:03.060 With this conversation, it's so pathetic.

00:37:04.800 We're talking about Prime Minister being brought down by cake and all...

00:37:07.480 But Constance, it was a handsy bloke called Pinscher.

00:37:10.600 Let's never forget that that happened in British public life.

00:37:14.360 I mean, yeah, in a way, it dovetails with the inquiry, in a way,

00:37:18.180 is that the coverage of the inquiries tended to lead on the most frivolous stuff.

00:37:23.360 And I think that's a real disservice.

00:37:24.980 That's what I mean.

00:37:25.860 But anyway, speaking of British politics, I mentioned earlier,

00:37:28.980 the most upvoted story from our supporters for us to talk about

00:37:32.280 was one Nicola Sturgeon.

00:37:34.460 We actually have a clip of her talking about this issue.

00:37:37.460 We'll play that and we'll chat about it.

00:37:39.360 Let's get that up.

00:37:40.960 Trans women are women, but in the present context,

00:37:44.100 there is no automatic right for a trans woman.

00:37:46.280 So there are contexts where a trans woman is not a woman.

00:37:48.780 No, there is circumstances in which a trans woman

00:37:53.220 will be housed in the male prison estate.

00:37:56.340 Is there any context in which a woman born as a woman

00:37:58.480 will be housed in the male estate?

00:37:59.980 Look, we're talking here about trans women.

00:38:01.500 And I'm now asking about women born as women.

00:38:03.180 I don't think there are circumstances there, but...

00:38:05.980 So it's different for trans women?

00:38:07.040 Well, yes, and I'm not...

00:38:09.280 So they're not equal?

00:38:10.380 That is not...

00:38:11.160 There is a risk assessment process done for trans women

00:38:14.800 that takes account of the nature of the crime.

00:38:17.980 Clearly, significant concern arises out of sexual crime

00:38:22.440 and whether it's appropriate for them to be in a female prison

00:38:25.140 or a male prison.

00:38:25.900 Moving on to your legislation.

00:38:26.880 Should someone who has a history of committing sexual crimes against women

00:38:30.580 be allowed to get a gender recognition certificate?

00:38:33.520 Well, there are, of course, provisions in that legislation,

00:38:36.640 which is not yet in force,

00:38:38.780 whereby if somebody is going through the process

00:38:41.380 of getting a gender recognition certificate

00:38:43.520 and there are concerns about that,

00:38:46.040 there can be a pause.

00:38:49.380 Elliot, and do we not also have some articles

00:38:51.480 about what's happened with her later?

00:38:53.900 So she's resigned, obviously, and...

00:38:57.020 Whoa, whoa, slow down.

00:38:58.960 So her husband was then arrested

00:39:00.600 and their house was searched.

00:39:03.720 And they...

00:39:05.020 And also, the other thing that's happened lately

00:39:06.780 is the UK government banned...

00:39:09.300 Not banned.

00:39:10.360 The UK government prevented their act from going through

00:39:13.560 and it's been found that that is legal.

00:39:15.780 The fact that they've prevented it from going through.

00:39:17.780 That's right, yeah.

00:39:18.400 So I think the reason people wanted us to talk about it

00:39:21.340 is, A, we have a lot of TERFs that watch this.

00:39:23.040 Yeah.

00:39:23.360 Right, number one.

00:39:23.920 They love it.

00:39:24.580 They absolutely love a bit of the trans.

00:39:26.140 Birds love trans.

00:39:26.860 Birds love trans, mate.

00:39:28.040 It's a catchphrase of the show.

00:39:29.560 Geoff is cringing because he's the woke one

00:39:31.180 for the purpose of the world.

00:39:31.980 Yeah, can I say that?

00:39:32.860 It's very problematic.

00:39:34.040 Yeah.

00:39:34.640 What, saying birds?

00:39:35.360 Well, I also think that with the people

00:39:36.960 that watch your show,

00:39:37.860 given how the year's been politically,

00:39:40.100 the downfall of Nicola Sturgeon

00:39:41.160 was like the one bright spark for people.

00:39:43.100 Yeah.

00:39:43.580 That's the thing that kept me going

00:39:44.580 through the difficult months.

00:39:45.720 Well, the reason I think people care about it

00:39:47.580 is obviously, as we just saw,

00:39:49.140 it exposes the complete, you know,

00:39:51.960 moral inconsistency of everything that they're saying.

00:39:55.080 It doesn't make sense.

00:39:55.900 They're trapped in the faulty logic

00:39:57.560 of their own argument.

00:39:58.900 But also, there was then the possibility

00:40:00.840 that she might be arrested and prosecuted

00:40:03.300 and go to prison.

00:40:04.080 And that's where it really gets interesting

00:40:06.840 because I think a lot of people feel like

00:40:08.740 the reason these crazy ideas

00:40:10.760 are able to mature to the point

00:40:13.860 where they're represented at that political level

00:40:16.020 is it's luxury beliefs.

00:40:17.900 Rob Henderson, who we've had on the show,

00:40:19.320 talks about this,

00:40:19.960 which is it's people having ideas

00:40:21.880 whose consequences they're never affected by.

00:40:24.140 Yeah.

00:40:24.220 And suddenly, this woman who's pretending that

00:40:27.100 Isla Bryson, Isla Graham,

00:40:31.040 two-time rapist, absolutely male,

00:40:33.500 being sent to a female prison is okay.

00:40:36.160 This person might be about to go to prison themselves.

00:40:40.420 That's why she was in such a muddle.

00:40:41.940 I mean, but the thing is,

00:40:42.720 like, she talks about a risk assessment

00:40:43.960 for Isla Bryson, whose real name is Adam Graham,

00:40:46.600 double rapist.

00:40:47.720 They were housing him in the female estate

00:40:50.240 while they made that decision.

00:40:52.620 What risk assessment do you need?

00:40:54.580 Double rapist.

00:40:55.940 That answers your question, doesn't it?

00:40:58.100 And that was the thing about, you know,

00:40:59.700 when Westminster vetoed the gender reform bill,

00:41:03.800 and which they were right to do so,

00:41:04.980 we forget that there were all these amendments

00:41:06.960 tabled to that bill.

00:41:08.060 The SNP could have made this palatable, right?

00:41:10.800 There were amendments to protect single-sex spaces

00:41:12.480 in hospital wards,

00:41:14.320 single-sex spaces in prisons.

00:41:16.500 They were saying that prisoners

00:41:18.540 who were on trial for rape

00:41:21.520 couldn't suddenly apply for a GRC during the process.

00:41:25.220 All of that sensible stuff,

00:41:26.600 and they just said no.

00:41:27.980 So, in other words, the bill was faulty and wrong.

00:41:30.500 They knew it would be vetoed.

00:41:31.720 They were warned it would be vetoed,

00:41:32.920 and they did it anyway.

00:41:34.080 Hamza Yusuf took Westminster on,

00:41:37.040 knowing he would lose.

00:41:37.900 I mean, everyone said you're going to lose.

00:41:39.280 This has been an absolute shambles

00:41:41.280 from start to finish,

00:41:42.680 and so she deserved to get nailed on this.

00:41:45.700 And by the way, we're not talking about

00:41:47.060 the dodgy corruption and the accusations,

00:41:50.100 because they have very strict

00:41:51.580 contempt of court rules in Scotland.

00:41:54.360 So nobody's really been talking about it,

00:41:56.360 but it dwarfs Boris Johnson and the cake.

00:41:59.280 Like, this is a, like,

00:42:00.380 we should be talking about this a whole lot more,

00:42:02.580 but we probably can't.

00:42:04.100 Well, this idea that you can sort of,

00:42:06.180 like you're saying,

00:42:07.160 I mean, the fact that we,

00:42:09.040 for a moment,

00:42:09.820 a politician in Britain

00:42:10.960 was considering this idea

00:42:11.980 that you can have this

00:42:12.740 prison-onset gender dysphoria.

00:42:14.980 Like, you get to the courtroom,

00:42:16.120 and suddenly,

00:42:16.520 oh, I'm a bit trans.

00:42:17.680 Like, it's ridiculous.

00:42:18.960 No, but they are now.

00:42:19.560 I mean, the Scottish government

00:42:20.200 is now saying

00:42:20.820 what they will do

00:42:21.480 is that they will still house men

00:42:23.000 in the women's estate

00:42:23.940 if they identify as women.

00:42:26.180 They're saying,

00:42:26.880 they're doubling down on this,

00:42:28.620 but they're saying,

00:42:29.200 you know,

00:42:29.440 they're reducing the numbers,

00:42:31.020 but they say,

00:42:31.540 we'll organise sort of day out

00:42:33.000 so that the trans-identifying people

00:42:34.860 can go and associate with women

00:42:36.380 in the women's prison.

00:42:37.380 They are seriously considering this.

00:42:39.460 And I would have thought that you've,

00:42:41.040 look, it works, doesn't it,

00:42:42.080 to segregate prisons by sex.

00:42:44.100 It works.

00:42:45.120 It's, you know,

00:42:46.020 it's perfectly fine.

00:42:46.800 And why are they so obsessed

00:42:47.760 with the feelings of rapists?

00:42:50.080 Why are they worried about them?

00:42:51.660 Why aren't they worried

00:42:52.140 about the women in prison

00:42:52.880 who are among the most vulnerable

00:42:53.940 women in the country?

00:42:55.260 Surely they should be the priority, right?

00:42:57.860 I would have thought.

00:42:59.220 I think what was fascinating about it

00:43:01.100 was that when the UK government,

00:43:02.860 Westminster government intervened,

00:43:04.260 there was a majority support for that

00:43:06.000 among SNP voters.

00:43:07.340 Now, I would say that

00:43:08.280 if you're a nationalist party

00:43:09.360 and your voters are supporting

00:43:12.580 the intervention,

00:43:13.500 that you couldn't have got it more wrong.

00:43:15.120 And there's been this paradox

00:43:16.520 in the SNP's politics for a while.

00:43:18.820 Both, like, you know,

00:43:19.980 on one hand,

00:43:20.560 want to be out of the union

00:43:21.580 that is Britain and the UK,

00:43:23.640 but want to be part of the EU,

00:43:25.500 you know?

00:43:25.780 And there is also this sort of line

00:43:28.780 between their politics,

00:43:29.840 which is independence.

00:43:30.680 I don't want Scotland to leave the UK,

00:43:32.120 but I understand that sentiment.

00:43:33.520 And this progressive agenda

00:43:34.640 that's actually not necessarily,

00:43:36.600 because, you know,

00:43:36.920 nationalism in Scotland

00:43:37.680 used to be coming

00:43:38.380 from a more conservative place.

00:43:40.280 You're right that the voters,

00:43:41.560 they overwhelmingly didn't support.

00:43:44.100 Because we keep hearing this bill

00:43:46.680 had cross-party support.

00:43:48.340 75% of Scottish parliamentarians

00:43:51.420 supported it.

00:43:52.100 But the public really didn't.

00:43:53.640 So is it the case that the SNP,

00:43:54.840 because they've always relied

00:43:55.680 on this thing that, you know,

00:43:56.480 it's all about independence

00:43:57.420 and the support has been

00:43:59.160 because there's this passion,

00:44:00.240 this nationalistic fervour

00:44:01.720 in the country

00:44:02.660 that they could just endorse

00:44:03.780 any ridiculous policy

00:44:05.300 and bring these people along.

00:44:06.540 Almost like they're trolling them.

00:44:07.920 Do you know, it's like,

00:44:08.720 you know Sky Sports,

00:44:09.660 like Sky Sports,

00:44:10.300 a lot of people get it

00:44:11.160 because you go,

00:44:11.500 I want the football.

00:44:12.260 Yeah.

00:44:12.620 Football is independence.

00:44:13.740 And then they go Sky Sports.

00:44:14.800 So you get the badminton as well.

00:44:15.740 You go,

00:44:16.220 I'm not really interested

00:44:17.140 in the badminton.

00:44:17.840 I want the football.

00:44:18.820 The football is the independence.

00:44:20.140 I think they're pushing it.

00:44:21.100 I think they're taking the piss.

00:44:22.020 Like, what else can we introduce?

00:44:23.380 Why don't we introduce

00:44:23.940 a hate speech bill

00:44:24.800 that makes it illegal

00:44:25.700 to say things in your own home?

00:44:27.160 Let's do that.

00:44:28.080 Everyone will hate it.

00:44:28.660 It doesn't matter

00:44:28.960 because they're one independence.

00:44:29.580 In fairness,

00:44:30.500 in fairness,

00:44:31.140 I think if I'm not mistaken,

00:44:32.920 it was part of their manifesto

00:44:34.560 in 2019.

00:44:35.540 So they have sort of sought.

00:44:36.600 But again, it doesn't matter.

00:44:37.360 But whether or not,

00:44:38.620 how high that was up,

00:44:39.940 the average SNP voters

00:44:41.540 priority list,

00:44:43.360 we can only speculate.

00:44:45.080 And I do think that

00:44:45.680 there is a sort of symmetry

00:44:46.660 between the SNP

00:44:47.720 and the Tories in a way

00:44:48.660 is that if you're in power

00:44:49.860 long enough,

00:44:50.720 there's like a hubris

00:44:51.600 that creeps in

00:44:52.360 and there are blind spots.

00:44:53.640 There are things that you do

00:44:54.520 because you've been in power

00:44:55.540 so long,

00:44:56.420 you forget that you have

00:44:57.580 to refer to the people.

00:44:59.220 I mean, like, you know,

00:44:59.800 example,

00:45:00.240 where the Tories

00:45:00.820 started going wrong,

00:45:01.740 I know we'll get back

00:45:02.500 to the SNP,

00:45:03.060 but was actually

00:45:03.860 the Owen Paterson thing

00:45:04.800 was where one of their mates

00:45:05.980 got found guilty

00:45:06.720 of something

00:45:07.060 by the Privileges Committee

00:45:08.340 and they're like,

00:45:09.000 oh, well, we'll change the rules.

00:45:10.400 And people just went,

00:45:11.080 well, that's the worst stereotype

00:45:12.840 about you

00:45:13.500 is that there's different rules

00:45:14.420 for people

00:45:14.820 than there is for you.

00:45:16.020 And the SNP

00:45:16.660 have had a succession

00:45:17.940 of things now

00:45:18.920 that have almost run

00:45:19.920 in tandem

00:45:20.400 with the Tories

00:45:21.120 in Westminster.

00:45:21.960 And it's almost like

00:45:22.500 this subconscious thing

00:45:23.640 of maybe you don't want

00:45:24.260 to be in power anymore.

00:45:25.420 Isn't it good

00:45:25.760 that they're being punished

00:45:26.280 for it, though?

00:45:26.780 I mean, like,

00:45:27.340 even if you take it

00:45:28.100 just on the terms

00:45:29.100 of the cause

00:45:30.200 or the campaign

00:45:30.920 for Scottish independence,

00:45:32.380 the support now

00:45:33.140 is much, much lower.

00:45:34.440 Like, they were edging

00:45:35.260 towards that majority

00:45:36.480 they needed

00:45:37.120 that if they did

00:45:37.880 have a referendum

00:45:38.420 they would win.

00:45:39.400 If they held it now

00:45:40.080 they'd lose.

00:45:41.100 And that is because

00:45:41.900 of all these other

00:45:42.900 batshit policies

00:45:44.360 that they've advocated for

00:45:46.240 they've lost support

00:45:47.240 for the independence

00:45:47.820 thing as well.

00:45:48.640 Ultimately, that's

00:45:49.340 what's happened.

00:45:50.020 But it's, you know,

00:45:50.880 they say that about

00:45:51.780 TV series,

00:45:52.580 the term jump the shark

00:45:53.660 is when they do

00:45:54.540 something in the series

00:45:55.520 that becomes so ridiculous

00:45:56.520 and it becomes so unbelievable

00:45:58.240 that everybody goes like,

00:45:59.460 you know what,

00:45:59.820 I'm done

00:46:00.160 and I can't watch this anymore.

00:46:01.860 And the Isla Bryson case

00:46:03.800 for me was the moment

00:46:04.900 the SNP jumped

00:46:05.860 to the metaphorical shark.

00:46:07.200 If you remember back

00:46:08.240 during question time

00:46:09.500 where it was an SNP member

00:46:12.460 there was an SNP member

00:46:13.620 of Scottish Parliament

00:46:14.460 and they asked her

00:46:16.220 is Isla Bryson

00:46:18.460 a man or a woman?

00:46:20.400 And she went,

00:46:21.340 they're a rapist.

00:46:22.620 And I'm like,

00:46:22.840 no, no,

00:46:23.100 that's not what I'm asking.

00:46:23.920 I think it was actually,

00:46:25.740 I think,

00:46:26.200 who was it?

00:46:26.680 It was,

00:46:27.340 I can't remember

00:46:27.960 but then she was asked again.

00:46:29.200 Yeah.

00:46:30.560 Are they a man or a woman?

00:46:31.820 They're a rapist.

00:46:32.800 And all you heard

00:46:34.020 from the question time audience

00:46:35.740 was this huge audible groan.

00:46:38.500 Yeah.

00:46:38.840 And I was looking at that

00:46:39.940 and listening and going,

00:46:40.900 you're done.

00:46:41.480 It's over.

00:46:41.780 Well, I mean,

00:46:42.240 in that interview

00:46:42.880 that we saw with Sturgeon

00:46:44.080 there's that point

00:46:44.740 where the paradox of her thinking

00:46:46.060 almost dawns at her

00:46:46.940 and she laughs

00:46:47.520 because she realises

00:46:48.380 she's hit a point.

00:46:49.820 Now,

00:46:50.000 if she was essentially

00:46:51.260 consistent in her thinking

00:46:52.380 she should have just

00:46:53.060 doubled down

00:46:53.480 and said,

00:46:53.720 no,

00:46:54.360 that,

00:46:54.600 you know,

00:46:54.900 that Isla Bryson

00:46:55.460 is a woman

00:46:56.280 and therefore,

00:46:57.120 yeah,

00:46:57.380 beautiful woman

00:46:58.040 and absolutely

00:46:59.440 should be housed

00:47:00.400 in a female prison

00:47:01.620 but what she,

00:47:02.580 once you've acknowledged

00:47:03.360 that there are some exceptions

00:47:04.660 well now,

00:47:05.360 now we're just,

00:47:06.080 it's like that old Oscar Wildcard

00:47:07.060 now we're just discussing

00:47:08.000 the details.

00:47:08.580 We've established what you think

00:47:09.520 now we're just discussing

00:47:10.760 the finer details.

00:47:12.320 Isn't it scary to think though

00:47:13.660 that it was a kind of coincidence

00:47:15.600 that brought her down

00:47:16.900 insofar as that

00:47:17.800 Isla Bryson case

00:47:18.520 happened to happen

00:47:19.360 at the time

00:47:20.200 that they were pushing

00:47:20.700 through the bill

00:47:21.320 and it's that visual image,

00:47:23.060 you know,

00:47:23.220 of that guy

00:47:23.700 in that dodgy wig

00:47:24.580 with his leggings

00:47:25.660 that showed his male genitalia,

00:47:27.100 you know,

00:47:27.700 that image,

00:47:29.160 everyone's like,

00:47:29.780 what,

00:47:29.940 they were going to put him

00:47:30.720 in a women's prison?

00:47:32.160 That's what changed it.

00:47:33.500 It's like there are these moments,

00:47:34.540 there are these visual things

00:47:35.260 that happen

00:47:35.620 and if it weren't for that

00:47:36.920 I think they would have

00:47:37.600 got away with it.

00:47:38.560 We'll be back with our guests

00:47:40.260 in a minute

00:47:40.680 but first,

00:47:41.780 do you remember

00:47:42.260 the Canadian trucker protest

00:47:43.660 in 2022

00:47:44.700 where thousands of Canadians

00:47:46.360 came out to protest

00:47:47.460 COVID restrictions

00:47:48.360 and vaccine mandates?

00:47:49.780 Now,

00:47:50.360 these protests

00:47:51.240 lasted for weeks

00:47:52.360 and the people

00:47:53.340 out on the streets

00:47:54.260 needed funds

00:47:55.020 as any grassroots

00:47:56.420 protest would.

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00:49:03.240 And now,

00:49:04.160 back to the interview.

00:49:05.120 And Andrew,

00:49:06.300 you were just saying

00:49:06.880 there's an article

00:49:07.500 about a recent case.

00:49:08.740 You mentioned

00:49:09.180 that essentially

00:49:09.860 quite consistently

00:49:11.780 now in the UK media

00:49:13.060 when there's a case

00:49:14.180 about a trans woman,

00:49:16.220 a biological male

00:49:17.320 who's committed

00:49:17.840 some kind of horrific offence,

00:49:19.300 it's always covered

00:49:20.340 in a way

00:49:20.760 where you don't get told

00:49:21.740 that they're trans

00:49:22.360 until the very end

00:49:23.100 of the article.

00:49:23.860 Right.

00:49:24.060 So the people don't have

00:49:25.140 their bigoted thoughts

00:49:25.960 about that.

00:49:27.060 And now they don't

00:49:27.760 even do that.

00:49:28.660 Right.

00:49:29.000 What was this article?

00:49:30.140 So the recent article

00:49:31.260 is about Naomi O'Brien.

00:49:32.880 Elliot, can you pull

00:49:33.440 that up as well?

00:49:34.060 So Naomi O'Brien

00:49:35.480 was complicit

00:49:36.480 in the abuse

00:49:37.980 of a four-year-old child.

00:49:40.360 Naomi O'Brien

00:49:40.860 is a man.

00:49:41.840 The article on the BBC

00:49:42.840 about this

00:49:43.420 actually had the phrase

00:49:44.360 predatory woman

00:49:45.180 in the headline.

00:49:48.260 One of the police officers,

00:49:49.580 a spokesperson for the police,

00:49:50.720 for the Greater Manchester Police,

00:49:51.920 used the phrase

00:49:52.560 predatory female,

00:49:53.880 predatory woman.

00:49:55.140 Everyone's lying about this.

00:49:56.340 The police know

00:49:57.100 that this is a man.

00:49:58.260 The media know

00:49:59.060 that this is a man.

00:49:59.900 The BBC know

00:50:00.600 that this is a man.

00:50:01.320 Now, the BBC used to

00:50:02.520 slip in at the end

00:50:03.540 of an article.

00:50:04.440 They'd use she, her pronouns

00:50:06.000 for a male rapist or murderer.

00:50:07.840 So you're just not

00:50:08.600 talking about the headline here,

00:50:09.600 you're talking about

00:50:09.900 the whole article.

00:50:10.400 The whole article.

00:50:11.460 Not once in this BBC article

00:50:13.600 does it mention

00:50:14.300 that this is a man.

00:50:15.540 So it's she, her

00:50:16.520 all the way through.

00:50:17.380 There is no,

00:50:18.400 not even like,

00:50:19.280 this is someone who identifies

00:50:20.180 as a woman.

00:50:20.400 Not even transgender.

00:50:21.420 That word isn't even used.

00:50:22.340 It's just a woman.

00:50:23.960 Whereas if you take,

00:50:24.580 there was an article last year

00:50:25.720 which was about a New York

00:50:27.500 serial killer

00:50:28.800 who dismembered women

00:50:30.920 and, you know,

00:50:32.680 and you read that

00:50:33.480 and it was all about a woman.

00:50:34.240 You thought,

00:50:34.500 this doesn't sound like a woman.

00:50:35.680 And then in the last,

00:50:36.660 in the penultimate paragraph

00:50:37.760 it said,

00:50:38.120 who recently identifies

00:50:39.160 as a woman.

00:50:39.540 You're like,

00:50:39.840 oh yeah, it's a bloke.

00:50:40.580 Of course it's a bloke.

00:50:41.880 So they used to do that

00:50:43.140 and now the BBC

00:50:44.000 has moved into

00:50:44.900 just flat out

00:50:46.660 saying this is female,

00:50:48.120 this is a woman

00:50:48.660 with no,

00:50:49.560 and people are getting sick of it

00:50:50.840 because for two reasons,

00:50:52.060 I think.

00:50:52.740 Firstly, it's not true.

00:50:53.680 So, so it's,

00:50:55.360 it's journalistically

00:50:56.160 it's really deeply unprofessional

00:50:57.740 and unethical

00:50:58.740 but also because

00:50:59.680 they don't have to do this.

00:51:01.280 We've been under this delusion

00:51:02.720 that all these media outlets

00:51:04.080 that use she, her pronouns

00:51:05.300 for, for, for rapists

00:51:06.620 are obliged to do so

00:51:08.660 because of Ipso, say,

00:51:10.160 or because of Ofcom

00:51:11.240 and none of that is true.

00:51:12.660 There is no reason

00:51:14.200 why they do this.

00:51:15.160 It doesn't have to be,

00:51:15.960 even right-wing newspapers do it.

00:51:17.600 Right?

00:51:18.080 Why?

00:51:18.880 What, what,

00:51:19.360 so what do you think then,

00:51:20.880 and I'm mildly playing devil's advocate,

00:51:23.040 in that headline,

00:51:24.080 what, what would you prefer to see?

00:51:26.400 What do you think that,

00:51:27.620 you know,

00:51:28.200 from the BBC's point of view

00:51:29.300 of getting some balance

00:51:30.460 between things,

00:51:31.340 how should they,

00:51:32.260 how should that headline run?

00:51:33.780 Transgender predator

00:51:34.780 incited man to abuse child

00:51:36.420 would have done it.

00:51:37.440 Mm-hmm.

00:51:38.000 Or man.

00:51:39.840 So I'm also very uncomfortable

00:51:41.260 with the, with the freight,

00:51:42.600 I believe balance is important,

00:51:44.120 but in this instance,

00:51:45.540 we, we, we ought not to have balance

00:51:47.320 between truth and lies.

00:51:48.880 It is objectively not true

00:51:51.420 that this person is a woman.

00:51:53.000 Mm.

00:51:53.280 Right?

00:51:53.660 So I don't want the BBC

00:51:55.140 to present me a balanced position

00:51:57.060 on whether gravity is real or not.

00:51:59.380 Do you know what I mean?

00:51:59.860 No, all I mean is just the,

00:52:00.400 the situation that they,

00:52:01.680 because obviously if they were

00:52:02.660 to go down that road,

00:52:03.520 and there's a lot of really strong arguments

00:52:04.620 why, why they could

00:52:05.740 and indeed should,

00:52:06.940 is that they're then going to get

00:52:07.820 kicked back the other side.

00:52:08.700 That's what I'm wondering.

00:52:09.460 It's like, what is, what, yeah.

00:52:11.200 That, that crime stats

00:52:12.280 are being skewed.

00:52:13.260 Yeah.

00:52:13.420 If I was a woman,

00:52:14.440 don't get me wrong,

00:52:15.360 if I, if I was a woman,

00:52:16.660 I'd be,

00:52:16.920 Which you can be, Jeff.

00:52:17.920 Yeah.

00:52:18.160 I mean, what an incredible phrase

00:52:19.820 for me to use.

00:52:20.320 Yeah.

00:52:20.680 If I was a woman,

00:52:21.580 Jesus Christ,

00:52:22.360 I am as dim as I look.

00:52:24.180 All you need to say is

00:52:25.060 I am a woman.

00:52:25.760 I, if I was a woman.

00:52:26.680 As a woman.

00:52:27.320 If I was,

00:52:28.020 look, I'm the woke one.

00:52:28.860 I'm not going to tolerate this.

00:52:30.160 If I was,

00:52:30.880 like, one of the things

00:52:32.080 if you look at the relative merits

00:52:33.800 of the biological sexes, right,

00:52:35.780 is that you say

00:52:36.480 your men have qualities,

00:52:37.240 women have qualities.

00:52:37.740 One thing that we can generally say

00:52:39.160 is that we're not,

00:52:40.500 broadly speaking,

00:52:41.380 the violent ones.

00:52:42.060 We're not the ones that do

00:52:43.040 fucking depraved shit

00:52:44.440 all the time.

00:52:45.080 So, looking at it

00:52:46.280 from a woman's point of view,

00:52:47.500 to have that down

00:52:48.700 on your chart

00:52:49.620 and your score,

00:52:50.720 you can absolutely

00:52:51.460 understand the rage.

00:52:52.660 Yeah.

00:52:52.980 And they are,

00:52:53.840 this does result in misreporting.

00:52:55.500 We don't know

00:52:56.320 how many of these rapists

00:52:57.480 are male or female

00:52:58.100 because the,

00:52:58.980 so many police forces

00:52:59.760 are recording crime

00:53:00.520 by gender identity,

00:53:01.440 not by biological sex.

00:53:03.360 I mean,

00:53:03.820 there was a freedom

00:53:04.300 of information request

00:53:05.120 by a group called

00:53:06.300 Keep Prisons Single Sex.

00:53:07.880 And I think 24 odd

00:53:09.540 police forces responded

00:53:10.540 and I think 15 of them

00:53:12.020 said they report,

00:53:12.820 they recorded crime

00:53:13.800 by gender identity.

00:53:15.140 Two said that they did it

00:53:16.160 by biological sex,

00:53:17.500 which means that

00:53:18.700 even the police don't know,

00:53:20.260 right?

00:53:20.660 And again,

00:53:21.380 there is no legal requirement

00:53:23.180 for the police

00:53:24.120 to record gender identity

00:53:25.540 instead of biological sex.

00:53:27.220 It's not there.

00:53:28.160 So,

00:53:28.560 all of these people

00:53:29.120 are independently

00:53:29.780 making these decisions

00:53:30.720 that skew the crime stats

00:53:32.120 and that's really,

00:53:33.260 really bad for everyone

00:53:33.980 because it's,

00:53:34.500 the truth matters,

00:53:35.360 right?

00:53:35.540 I mean,

00:53:36.880 one of the things

00:53:37.320 I've been conscious of

00:53:38.200 over the last few years

00:53:39.380 is that we've lost

00:53:40.380 distinctions between,

00:53:41.720 now just trans

00:53:42.400 can mean anything

00:53:43.120 from somebody

00:53:43.760 that's fully,

00:53:44.720 you know,

00:53:45.040 transitioned their body

00:53:45.920 as far as they can

00:53:46.820 and have been living

00:53:47.640 as a woman

00:53:49.340 for so many years

00:53:50.840 and somebody

00:53:51.540 that's made

00:53:51.960 a very short-term decision.

00:53:54.020 And that's where

00:53:54.560 I do worry for people

00:53:56.460 that were living

00:53:57.340 essentially calm

00:53:58.300 and serenized

00:53:59.000 that had gone through that.

00:54:00.180 And broadly speaking,

00:54:00.960 I think if you go through that,

00:54:01.980 that is genuinely how you feel

00:54:03.540 if you literally

00:54:04.080 change your body.

00:54:04.980 Now I understand

00:54:05.520 some people would never

00:54:06.180 see that person

00:54:06.840 as fully a biological woman

00:54:08.520 and maybe the problem is

00:54:10.360 we've lost this distinction.

00:54:11.980 But that's the fault of Stonewall.

00:54:12.440 But just saying trans

00:54:14.260 actually covers

00:54:15.080 such a broad range

00:54:17.080 of experience within that,

00:54:18.420 it's really not...

00:54:19.280 But we didn't do that,

00:54:20.260 activists did that.

00:54:20.600 No, no, no.

00:54:21.320 I absolutely agree.

00:54:22.140 Stonewall said that

00:54:22.560 there's now a trans umbrella

00:54:23.720 which includes trans,

00:54:25.380 what you're talking about

00:54:25.880 is transsexuals

00:54:26.560 which is what most of us

00:54:27.300 thought of as trans

00:54:28.520 all those years ago.

00:54:29.400 People have gone through

00:54:30.080 the procedure, right?

00:54:30.860 Do you remember who won

00:54:31.760 Big Brother?

00:54:32.360 Yeah, Nadia.

00:54:33.760 Yeah, Nadia.

00:54:34.360 So everyone's like,

00:54:34.840 a trans woman

00:54:35.600 and it really wasn't an issue.

00:54:37.280 And then when you've got people

00:54:38.080 that were wanting to make

00:54:38.960 very short-term decisions

00:54:40.380 with very little commitment

00:54:42.100 in their private life

00:54:43.140 to that difference,

00:54:44.100 suddenly those got merged

00:54:45.240 into one thing.

00:54:46.220 And I think that's, again,

00:54:47.080 one of those moments

00:54:47.680 where the British public

00:54:48.440 who essentially,

00:54:49.440 I think broadly,

00:54:50.160 if someone has fully

00:54:50.860 transitioned their body,

00:54:51.840 would certainly relate

00:54:52.560 to that person as a woman

00:54:53.520 if that's what they chose,

00:54:54.840 suddenly felt,

00:54:55.460 well, there's a massive

00:54:56.060 fucking difference

00:54:56.680 between those two things.

00:54:57.560 But that's the problem.

00:54:58.460 So a lot of people

00:54:59.140 are very deeply supportive

00:55:00.180 of the kind of person

00:55:01.580 you describe

00:55:02.180 who needs to go through

00:55:03.620 that terribly expensive

00:55:04.640 and painful surgery

00:55:05.780 to feel comfortable

00:55:08.120 in their life.

00:55:09.160 Most people have sympathy

00:55:10.280 for those individuals

00:55:11.260 and they would consider them,

00:55:13.020 you know,

00:55:13.220 you'd want to support them.

00:55:15.340 But when you bring in

00:55:16.120 that same umbrella,

00:55:17.940 fetishists,

00:55:19.000 cross-dressers,

00:55:20.380 you know,

00:55:20.780 someone who just throws

00:55:21.580 a wig on

00:55:22.160 and does nothing else,

00:55:23.940 like the Green Party

00:55:25.000 candidate Melissa Poulton.

00:55:26.240 Now that image

00:55:27.360 of him just saying,

00:55:29.620 yeah,

00:55:29.980 anyone who criticises me

00:55:31.060 as a transphobe,

00:55:31.760 you just think,

00:55:32.700 it's,

00:55:33.340 because he's not even

00:55:33.820 a good wig.

00:55:34.940 Do you know what I mean?

00:55:35.320 So like,

00:55:35.720 you're bringing in

00:55:36.540 all these sort of people.

00:55:37.580 Does it come down

00:55:37.940 to wig quality?

00:55:38.640 I think it comes

00:55:39.680 down to wig quality.

00:55:40.440 Because then that

00:55:40.800 becomes a class issue,

00:55:42.360 rich people

00:55:42.900 who can afford

00:55:44.200 better wigs.

00:55:44.880 But it's not a transsexual.

00:55:46.240 Yeah.

00:55:47.200 That's a bloke

00:55:47.860 who's put a wig on.

00:55:48.840 That's not the same

00:55:49.540 as a transsexual, right?

00:55:50.820 But we've lost those,

00:55:51.960 and that's been

00:55:52.400 a deliberate tactic.

00:55:52.980 So what point then,

00:55:53.560 so I've had,

00:55:54.220 you know,

00:55:56.240 I've had people

00:55:57.000 who've got in contact

00:55:57.680 with me saying that,

00:55:58.500 you know,

00:55:58.720 there is a legal requirement

00:56:00.160 of time to,

00:56:01.180 where you do have to,

00:56:02.820 sort of,

00:56:03.120 as you're transitioning,

00:56:04.840 essentially just present

00:56:05.800 as a woman.

00:56:06.700 So is there a point

00:56:07.860 in that process?

00:56:09.020 Is it that when you've

00:56:10.180 fully changed your body,

00:56:11.960 what is the point

00:56:13.000 at which someone

00:56:13.600 can legitimately

00:56:14.460 at least sort of

00:56:16.100 represent for you

00:56:17.340 as that gender then?

00:56:18.420 And I realise

00:56:18.800 I'm getting very

00:56:19.280 conceptual here.

00:56:20.080 No, that's a good point.

00:56:20.740 And it is a problem.

00:56:22.060 Is there like a benchmark moment?

00:56:24.280 Because you're saying,

00:56:25.080 I think what you're saying

00:56:26.000 is somebody putting on,

00:56:27.120 you know,

00:56:27.380 on a wig,

00:56:27.920 like there's that very early part,

00:56:29.480 which a lot of the public

00:56:30.220 would have hesitations about.

00:56:31.660 But where is it along

00:56:32.540 the spectrum?

00:56:33.760 No, because you're talking

00:56:34.920 about early within a process

00:56:36.880 where someone is,

00:56:37.760 it's tending towards

00:56:39.160 transsexualism,

00:56:40.160 surgery.

00:56:41.020 The vast majority

00:56:41.880 of the people

00:56:42.300 who we now call trans

00:56:43.260 have no intention

00:56:44.020 of removing their genitalia

00:56:46.240 or male genitalia

00:56:47.040 or anything of that kind.

00:56:48.560 They just want to be treated

00:56:49.560 as women,

00:56:50.900 have access

00:56:51.860 to women's spaces,

00:56:53.120 even though they are

00:56:54.160 intact male bodies.

00:56:56.380 And that's something

00:56:57.460 that is very,

00:56:58.220 very dangerous.

00:56:59.520 And it's that conflation

00:57:00.900 that I think has caused

00:57:01.800 all the problems.

00:57:02.800 And it's also why

00:57:03.460 so many decent people

00:57:04.840 have gone on board

00:57:06.160 with really reactionary ideas

00:57:07.640 because they think

00:57:08.160 they're supporting

00:57:08.540 transsexuals,

00:57:09.500 but they're not.

00:57:10.940 That's what I think

00:57:11.520 has happened here.

00:57:12.580 And it goes back

00:57:13.400 to your original point

00:57:14.340 when we were talking

00:57:15.360 about antisemitism,

00:57:17.420 which is the power

00:57:18.040 of ideology.

00:57:18.860 Right.

00:57:19.260 Where you have a mantra

00:57:20.120 which is trans women

00:57:21.040 are women.

00:57:21.800 Well, what does that mean?

00:57:23.160 It means that anyone

00:57:23.760 can be a woman,

00:57:24.600 anyone can identify

00:57:25.440 as a woman,

00:57:26.040 which means you obliterate

00:57:27.120 the meaning of the term.

00:57:28.280 Right.

00:57:28.600 So if you take this year,

00:57:29.640 we had Jenny Watson

00:57:30.700 who had a speed dating

00:57:31.920 lesbian event.

00:57:33.500 There was a guy

00:57:34.800 who identified as female

00:57:35.940 who turned up,

00:57:36.860 was very handsy

00:57:37.820 with some of the lesbians

00:57:38.640 in the toilet.

00:57:39.700 And it got to the point

00:57:40.600 where Jenny Watson

00:57:41.440 had to say,

00:57:41.900 look, this is just

00:57:43.260 for biological women,

00:57:44.220 for lesbians.

00:57:45.980 And then the event

00:57:47.120 got shut down

00:57:47.760 because activists

00:57:48.540 went after the venue,

00:57:49.640 right?

00:57:50.040 So if you have a situation

00:57:51.120 where lesbians cannot gather

00:57:53.140 in a romantic context,

00:57:54.780 speed dating,

00:57:56.000 without men demanding entry,

00:57:58.060 to me,

00:57:59.240 that's really regressive.

00:58:00.560 And that's what's happening.

00:58:01.220 Well, it comes down to,

00:58:02.360 again,

00:58:02.780 the fair play limit.

00:58:03.500 I think most people

00:58:04.140 recognise that to be

00:58:05.320 an unreasonable development.

00:58:07.480 You know,

00:58:07.740 like that is a freedom

00:58:09.040 of association

00:58:09.820 more effectively.

00:58:11.000 But if you say

00:58:12.120 trans women or women

00:58:12.980 have to be treated

00:58:13.640 as women in law,

00:58:15.060 then actually it's right

00:58:15.860 to shut that down.

00:58:17.500 Andrew,

00:58:17.780 can I ask you something

00:58:18.560 that may sound

00:58:19.380 a little personal,

00:58:20.200 but you are someone

00:58:20.880 who has covered this issue

00:58:22.040 a hell of a lot.

00:58:23.240 And I know that

00:58:23.800 in private conversations

00:58:24.780 we've talked about

00:58:25.620 that this is something

00:58:27.060 that is particularly

00:58:28.520 affecting gay children.

00:58:30.740 Yeah.

00:58:31.100 And I know that

00:58:31.840 for a lot of lesbians

00:58:33.400 and gay men in particular,

00:58:34.760 it's a kind of

00:58:35.680 personal issue as well

00:58:37.020 because they sort of

00:58:37.820 look at it and go,

00:58:38.980 you know what,

00:58:39.860 if this had been happening

00:58:40.820 when I was a boy

00:58:41.900 or when I was a girl,

00:58:43.140 I might be one of these people.

00:58:44.180 Right.

00:58:44.540 I might have been

00:58:45.200 led down this path.

00:58:46.060 Well, that's why

00:58:46.480 so many gay activists

00:58:47.540 are coming out of retirement

00:58:48.660 to deal with this issue.

00:58:50.440 And that's why

00:58:51.040 the notion of an LGBTQIA plus

00:58:53.320 community is such a lie

00:58:55.000 because so many

00:58:56.320 of the principles

00:58:57.320 behind the TQ plus

00:58:58.620 aspect of that

00:58:59.400 are directly antithetical

00:59:01.100 to gay rights.

00:59:02.260 That's the problem.

00:59:02.780 So now we live in a time

00:59:03.860 where it's the most dangerous

00:59:05.360 time to be a gay kid,

00:59:06.720 basically,

00:59:07.280 because when I was at school,

00:59:08.940 you know,

00:59:09.780 for a start,

00:59:10.680 you wouldn't be out.

00:59:11.320 There was no such thing

00:59:12.340 as an out gay kid at school

00:59:13.980 at the time I was at school.

00:59:15.460 You would be beaten up.

00:59:16.480 You'd be bullied.

00:59:17.560 You'd have homophobic abuse

00:59:18.980 from the staff,

00:59:19.600 from the teachers.

00:59:20.600 But now if you're a gay kid,

00:59:22.560 you'll have figures of authority,

00:59:24.680 teachers,

00:59:25.720 stonewall mermaids,

00:59:27.000 implying that you might

00:59:27.720 be in the wrong body

00:59:28.360 and you need to be put

00:59:29.000 on a pathway to medicalisation.

00:59:30.980 Now, no one saw that coming.

00:59:32.120 No one saw coming the idea

00:59:33.360 that we'd be medicalising

00:59:35.060 gay kids in the name of progress.

00:59:36.820 That's such a bizarre

00:59:37.700 sort of situation.

00:59:38.400 And because between 80 and 90%

00:59:40.840 of adolescents referred

00:59:41.660 to the Tavistock Clinic

00:59:42.600 were same-sex attracted,

00:59:44.720 we know that this overwhelmingly

00:59:46.620 is about fixing gay kids,

00:59:48.760 heterosexualising gay kids.

00:59:50.240 Whether that is conscious or not,

00:59:51.940 that's the impact of this.

00:59:53.080 Do you think,

00:59:53.800 would it be conscious though?

00:59:55.260 It feels unlikely.

00:59:57.780 That might be the net effect of it.

00:59:59.440 Well, why then did so many

01:00:00.600 whistleblowers at the Tavistock

01:00:01.820 say there was homophobia endemic

01:00:03.960 in a lot of the referrals?

01:00:05.280 Why did they have a dark joke?

01:00:06.400 Why did they have the joke,

01:00:07.600 soon there'll be no gay kids left?

01:00:09.100 Why did they have that?

01:00:10.360 Well, I'm just,

01:00:11.420 it's very hard for someone like me,

01:00:13.280 you know,

01:00:13.640 I'm looking into various

01:00:15.000 different communities

01:00:15.660 I don't fully understand,

01:00:17.080 but how a sort of

01:00:18.860 left-wing progressive organisation

01:00:20.060 I do think have got it wrong

01:00:21.700 on so many things,

01:00:22.780 but would become homophobic.

01:00:24.920 How did that happen?

01:00:25.740 Yeah, I really want to know

01:00:27.120 the answer to that question.

01:00:28.360 Did it happen?

01:00:29.500 No, but it did happen,

01:00:30.560 but I think what,

01:00:31.480 you know,

01:00:32.440 groups like Stonewall and Mermaids,

01:00:33.720 as far as I'm concerned,

01:00:34.500 represent the biggest threat

01:00:35.440 to gay rights at the moment,

01:00:36.480 they are hostile to gay rights,

01:00:38.700 but they don't say they are,

01:00:39.700 I agree,

01:00:40.360 and I don't even think

01:00:41.060 they think they are.

01:00:41.840 I think you're right.

01:00:42.500 I think they have actually

01:00:44.160 bought into this ideology

01:00:45.600 to such a degree

01:00:46.340 that they are advocating

01:00:47.760 and promoting

01:00:48.680 anti-gay ideas

01:00:50.940 in the name of being pro-gay.

01:00:52.780 I think they are.

01:00:53.560 I think you're right.

01:00:54.080 I think it is a complete,

01:00:56.120 you know,

01:00:57.140 and I feel that that's why

01:00:58.780 a lot of gay people

01:00:59.540 are frustrated

01:01:00.360 when they see that

01:01:01.040 progress pride flag

01:01:03.040 spattered everywhere.

01:01:03.840 A load of gay people think

01:01:04.780 that basically

01:01:05.700 if that's outside a pub,

01:01:06.800 they feel they won't go in

01:01:07.780 because they might get attacked,

01:01:08.920 verbally abused,

01:01:09.660 whatever.

01:01:10.400 And it used to be the case

01:01:11.220 that the rainbow flag was like,

01:01:12.200 well,

01:01:12.320 I know I can go in there

01:01:13.320 and I can hold my boyfriend's hand

01:01:15.040 and I won't get trouble for it.

01:01:16.720 If I see the progress pride flag now,

01:01:18.460 I do not go into that bar.

01:01:20.320 I'm worried someone might

01:01:21.340 start verbally abusing me,

01:01:22.780 right?

01:01:23.380 But just for being gay

01:01:24.560 or for having a view

01:01:25.560 on same-sex biological...

01:01:27.840 But being same-sex attracted

01:01:29.720 is a counter to this ideology

01:01:32.760 in and of itself

01:01:33.660 because it implies

01:01:34.760 that there's only two sexes.

01:01:36.080 Well,

01:01:36.180 they say being same-sex attracted

01:01:37.440 is a dog whistle.

01:01:38.440 Right.

01:01:38.780 So Stonewall on its website

01:01:41.100 and its promotional materials

01:01:42.020 changed the definition

01:01:43.200 of homosexual

01:01:43.880 to mean same-gender attracted.

01:01:46.480 Activists say things like

01:01:47.520 genital preferences

01:01:48.340 are transphobic.

01:01:49.160 Not all activists,

01:01:50.120 but some do.

01:01:51.560 They have this idea

01:01:52.780 that you...

01:01:53.480 That's why Grindr now

01:01:54.440 is full of young women

01:01:55.520 who've been led to believe

01:01:56.640 that they're men.

01:01:57.680 That's why in Australia

01:01:59.540 it's illegal for lesbians

01:02:00.620 to gather now

01:02:01.340 because you have to admit men.

01:02:03.120 So...

01:02:03.940 But gay people aren't attracted

01:02:05.180 to the way

01:02:06.600 that you perceive yourself.

01:02:08.240 Like,

01:02:08.620 gay men aren't attracted

01:02:09.740 to people who think they're men.

01:02:10.700 They're attracted to men.

01:02:11.800 And lesbians aren't attracted

01:02:12.960 to people with penises

01:02:13.740 because they're lesbians.

01:02:15.260 This is the thing.

01:02:16.220 There's this thing

01:02:16.720 called homosexuality.

01:02:18.040 This is blowing my mind.

01:02:18.920 It's an education and...

01:02:20.140 Which of course,

01:02:21.140 the title of this episode

01:02:22.140 would be

01:02:22.440 The Red Pilling of Jeff North.

01:02:23.760 Yeah.

01:02:24.140 There's just so much

01:02:25.640 to take on here.

01:02:26.940 Think about homosexuality.

01:02:28.600 Gay rights

01:02:29.260 has been secured

01:02:30.440 on the understanding

01:02:31.380 that there are people

01:02:31.900 who are innately attracted

01:02:33.140 to members of their own sex.

01:02:34.720 But now,

01:02:35.820 those people are being

01:02:36.420 shamed for it.

01:02:37.620 Wait,

01:02:37.880 you don't include

01:02:38.700 people with penises

01:02:39.660 in your dating pool,

01:02:40.720 lesbian?

01:02:41.280 Then you are

01:02:42.020 evil bigot.

01:02:43.220 So this is the question

01:02:44.100 maybe I'm asking

01:02:44.780 is I think

01:02:45.660 that that view

01:02:46.480 that you're expressing

01:02:47.600 absolutely exists

01:02:48.720 is how prevalent, right?

01:02:50.120 If we get outside

01:02:50.780 of social media

01:02:51.780 or even more

01:02:52.640 metropolitan type centres,

01:02:53.720 if you go to

01:02:54.400 an old gay pub

01:02:55.620 in Wolverhampton,

01:02:56.780 you know,

01:02:57.120 are we saying...

01:02:57.920 Is there one?

01:02:58.760 Do you know what?

01:02:59.740 There absolutely is.

01:03:01.700 I did a gig there

01:03:02.740 in 2005

01:03:04.120 and it was...

01:03:07.500 It was terrible.

01:03:08.300 I'm not sure

01:03:08.740 I was the right booking

01:03:09.440 is what I would say.

01:03:11.780 That's what I'm wondering.

01:03:12.820 I'm wondering if

01:03:13.680 maybe those voices

01:03:15.300 that you're talking about

01:03:16.200 have disproportionate

01:03:17.320 volume within the debate.

01:03:19.060 But I wonder

01:03:19.880 how broad that is.

01:03:20.620 But not just the debate.

01:03:21.720 They also have

01:03:22.180 a disproportionate impact

01:03:23.520 on government policy,

01:03:24.800 police behaviour.

01:03:25.740 They're in the College

01:03:26.360 of Policing.

01:03:27.020 They're in the NHS

01:03:27.920 giving trainings, etc.

01:03:29.820 That's the issue.

01:03:30.540 It's not about,

01:03:31.280 you know,

01:03:31.660 Andrew spent too much time

01:03:32.760 on social media.

01:03:33.560 It's about the fact

01:03:34.340 that this is having

01:03:35.100 an impact on real people.

01:03:36.780 Yeah, that's it.

01:03:37.180 I mean,

01:03:37.360 it wouldn't matter so much

01:03:38.500 if it wasn't impacting people.

01:03:39.840 All these kids

01:03:40.720 who've gone through now,

01:03:41.880 you know,

01:03:42.740 puberty blockers

01:03:43.380 which almost always lead

01:03:44.600 to cross-sex hormones

01:03:45.400 and sometimes to surgery

01:03:46.680 that cannot be undone.

01:03:47.580 I've met detransitioners.

01:03:49.200 I met a gay guy

01:03:49.960 who's just an effeminate gay guy

01:03:51.860 and he doesn't have genitals anymore

01:03:53.260 because he was encouraged

01:03:54.280 to go down this path.

01:03:55.420 And it does sort of matter,

01:03:56.820 I think.

01:03:57.160 Well, it matters.

01:03:58.200 It does.

01:03:58.580 Hugely, right?

01:03:59.520 Jeff's looking at his watch.

01:04:00.640 No, no, I wasn't looking at his watch.

01:04:02.000 I was just about to make

01:04:03.220 a really flippant joke

01:04:04.300 and then you said something

01:04:05.000 very serious.

01:04:06.560 And I just looked down

01:04:07.860 because I thought,

01:04:08.320 I am so glad

01:04:09.140 I didn't make that joke just then.

01:04:10.500 Can I make the point though

01:04:11.520 about, look,

01:04:12.480 in Iran,

01:04:13.300 the government funds

01:04:14.340 sex changes

01:04:15.340 because they hate,

01:04:16.320 they hang gay people

01:04:17.520 from cranes.

01:04:18.380 Or are they just really

01:04:19.220 progressive, Andrew?

01:04:19.980 Well, you say that

01:04:20.920 but when the Pakistan government

01:04:22.600 started doing a similar thing

01:04:23.460 which they've since stopped doing,

01:04:25.180 Pink News put out a video

01:04:27.000 saying,

01:04:27.500 oh, great,

01:04:28.280 Pakistan has said yes

01:04:29.100 to trans rights.

01:04:30.340 No, the Pakistan government

01:04:31.460 was funding sex changes

01:04:32.640 because they kill gay people.

01:04:34.080 I am genuinely

01:04:35.180 blown away by this.

01:04:37.840 See, this is why

01:04:38.780 you stay away from this issue

01:04:39.880 because if you listen

01:04:41.020 to enough people talk about it,

01:04:42.340 you eventually come out

01:04:43.400 very hard-line on it.

01:04:45.080 No, I mean,

01:04:45.760 look, I'm getting

01:04:46.540 what you said

01:04:47.340 but it's when Pink News

01:04:48.620 were hyping the Pakistan government.

01:04:50.320 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:04:50.900 Well, okay, okay.

01:04:52.900 So, speaking of progress,

01:04:54.580 as we wrap up

01:04:55.360 this particular segment

01:04:57.160 of the conversation,

01:04:58.060 Andrew,

01:04:58.320 do you feel

01:04:59.020 that with some of the things

01:05:01.080 we have seen this year

01:05:02.240 in this country,

01:05:03.100 we actually have made progress

01:05:04.800 in terms of the pushback

01:05:06.040 against this?

01:05:06.700 We saw the Tavistock Clinic,

01:05:08.680 the Cass Report,

01:05:09.980 we've seen all sorts

01:05:11.160 of other things happening

01:05:12.040 where you go,

01:05:12.900 okay, some of the madness

01:05:13.880 is being dialed back

01:05:14.820 a little bit.

01:05:15.060 I think that's absolutely right

01:05:15.800 and I think it's because

01:05:16.360 of what Jeff was saying

01:05:17.120 is that most people

01:05:18.180 don't know it's going on,

01:05:19.980 right?

01:05:20.540 Most people just don't realise

01:05:21.920 they thought that the Tavistock

01:05:23.460 was just helping kids

01:05:24.580 who were suffering

01:05:25.040 from gender dysphoria.

01:05:26.360 They didn't realise

01:05:27.000 that it was, you know,

01:05:28.100 what, 35% of referrals

01:05:29.300 were autistic

01:05:29.920 as compared to 2%

01:05:30.900 of the population.

01:05:31.900 They had all sorts

01:05:32.640 of other co-morbidity,

01:05:33.740 co-issues going on

01:05:34.920 that all of this

01:05:36.120 is coming out now.

01:05:37.160 Kemi Badenoch

01:05:37.920 has mentioned this

01:05:39.180 in Parliament,

01:05:39.800 has talked about

01:05:40.480 transing away the gay,

01:05:42.460 has talked about people

01:05:43.400 who are using

01:05:43.860 the ideology of gender identity

01:05:45.700 and are effectively

01:05:46.440 heterosexualising gay kids.

01:05:48.400 It's a real threat

01:05:49.000 to gay people.

01:05:49.580 Now that that debate

01:05:50.380 is open, you know,

01:05:51.720 I was talking to Dennis Kavanaugh

01:05:52.680 about this the other day.

01:05:53.560 He's the director

01:05:54.540 of the Gay Men's Network

01:05:55.340 and he was saying

01:05:56.220 like the stuff

01:05:56.740 that Kemi Badenoch

01:05:57.460 was saying in Parliament

01:05:58.300 would have got a ban

01:05:59.300 from social media

01:06:00.060 a few years ago

01:06:00.880 but now it's out in the open.

01:06:02.820 Stonewall always had

01:06:03.600 this idea of no debate.

01:06:04.660 That was their official policy.

01:06:05.760 We don't debate this.

01:06:07.120 You know,

01:06:07.980 because their ideas

01:06:08.760 were so extreme.

01:06:09.520 Yeah, I saw one of their guys

01:06:10.060 on the news

01:06:10.380 literally saying

01:06:11.020 I can't talk about this

01:06:12.140 because it's so obvious.

01:06:13.380 Right.

01:06:13.720 It's a settled issue.

01:06:15.300 Evidently not.

01:06:17.120 So what's happened

01:06:18.160 is you have a minority

01:06:19.100 of activists

01:06:19.900 with incredible power

01:06:20.940 in society

01:06:21.580 who are treating

01:06:22.700 their own extremist views

01:06:24.540 and presenting them

01:06:25.400 as though we've reached

01:06:26.220 an established consensus

01:06:27.220 in society

01:06:27.940 and it's not true

01:06:28.940 and now what's happening

01:06:29.960 is people are waking up to it.

01:06:31.160 More and more people

01:06:31.640 are seeing

01:06:32.380 the impact

01:06:33.340 of gender identity ideology

01:06:34.540 in schools

01:06:35.600 and on their kids

01:06:37.880 and to gay people

01:06:39.560 and to women especially

01:06:41.060 and they're pushing back

01:06:42.860 against it.

01:06:43.340 So I think

01:06:43.720 it's all

01:06:45.380 it's going to end.

01:06:46.380 I mean honestly

01:06:47.060 I'm feeling very optimistic.

01:06:48.720 I think too many people

01:06:49.720 know about it now.

01:06:51.300 You know

01:06:51.480 it's going to take a long time

01:06:52.480 to unpick it

01:06:53.300 like the Welsh government

01:06:54.220 is basically putting out

01:06:55.640 gender identity propaganda

01:06:56.800 in all of their

01:06:57.820 teaching materials

01:06:59.120 and stuff like that.

01:06:59.740 They're probably doing

01:07:01.180 something that's not

01:07:02.080 actually legal

01:07:02.980 because the

01:07:03.560 Education Act

01:07:05.920 actually forbids

01:07:06.660 ideological and political

01:07:08.880 teaching in schools

01:07:09.540 but so we'll get there

01:07:11.460 eventually I think

01:07:12.400 and we'll get back

01:07:12.920 to the idea of

01:07:13.580 liberal values

01:07:14.980 and gay rights

01:07:16.600 and women's rights

01:07:17.260 and free speech

01:07:18.740 and all of these things

01:07:19.400 that we had sort of

01:07:20.180 agreed on at one point.

01:07:21.520 I'm really optimistic.

01:07:22.640 I think too many

01:07:23.320 crazy things have happened.

01:07:25.560 I think it's images

01:07:26.300 like Leah Thomas

01:07:27.340 on the podium

01:07:27.980 towering over

01:07:29.540 those women.

01:07:30.920 I think every time

01:07:31.920 something like that happens

01:07:32.740 people think

01:07:33.160 what?

01:07:33.720 This is actually happening?

01:07:35.020 Did you know that

01:07:35.660 male rapists were being

01:07:36.580 housed in female prisons?

01:07:38.100 Probably not.

01:07:39.620 I missed a bit

01:07:41.400 when being cool

01:07:42.280 with gay people

01:07:43.000 was cool

01:07:43.600 like you could say

01:07:44.520 that and feel

01:07:45.020 really liberal

01:07:45.760 you know.

01:07:47.000 It's a brief window.

01:07:48.380 Yeah.

01:07:48.740 My son's

01:07:49.660 you know

01:07:50.140 his godparents

01:07:50.840 two married gay men

01:07:51.740 I used to love

01:07:52.320 throwing that in the face

01:07:53.160 of people

01:07:53.460 that would think

01:07:54.300 like

01:07:54.640 You get kudos for that

01:07:55.820 I remember

01:07:56.640 back in the Edinburgh Fringe

01:07:57.860 years ago

01:07:58.440 I used to say that

01:07:59.260 and everyone went silent

01:08:00.020 and I was like

01:08:00.440 yeah

01:08:00.720 I out-liberaled you

01:08:02.320 but now it's like

01:08:03.740 being fine with gays

01:08:05.900 is very last year

01:08:07.040 Well gays are the problem now

01:08:08.640 Yeah yeah

01:08:09.200 That's the thing

01:08:10.020 Except your non-binary

01:08:11.540 overlords Jeff

01:08:12.400 Don't get rid of gays

01:08:13.660 Love gays

01:08:14.120 Jeff

01:08:15.400 Are you as optimistic

01:08:17.100 as Andrew

01:08:17.820 about the pushback?

01:08:19.820 I think there are

01:08:20.220 a lot of debates

01:08:20.880 actually where the pendulum

01:08:21.860 goes one way

01:08:22.620 and you think

01:08:23.120 and then it comes back

01:08:24.800 the other way

01:08:25.340 I think ultimately

01:08:26.260 the debate

01:08:26.940 that has the most chance

01:08:28.440 of resonating

01:08:29.020 with reasonable members

01:08:30.000 of the public

01:08:30.420 will be the one

01:08:31.020 that triumphs in the long run

01:08:32.460 Yeah

01:08:32.700 The interesting thing to me

01:08:34.440 is I'm temperamentally

01:08:35.880 very tempted

01:08:36.500 to agree with Andrew

01:08:37.440 but then I have

01:08:39.040 how long have you been

01:08:39.600 doing the show?

01:08:40.120 Six years?

01:08:40.600 And you've been spending

01:08:41.500 a lot of time with me

01:08:42.240 and I've been spending

01:08:43.160 a lot of time

01:08:43.740 with the depressive

01:08:44.360 so I look at

01:08:46.540 the last six years

01:08:47.320 I sort of think

01:08:48.140 we probably would have

01:08:48.940 said that at every point

01:08:50.240 every year

01:08:51.260 around Christmas

01:08:52.420 in every point

01:08:53.680 in the last six years

01:08:54.580 and so far

01:08:55.280 it just gets worse

01:08:56.280 We have seen

01:08:57.400 a lot of

01:08:58.280 actual progress

01:08:59.380 I mean Hannah Barnes

01:09:00.380 who's a Newsnight editor

01:09:02.060 she had a brilliant book

01:09:03.500 about this

01:09:04.060 and it really got resonance

01:09:05.920 I think you're seeing

01:09:06.960 Stonewall and Mermaids

01:09:08.600 being pulled out

01:09:09.560 of the institutions

01:09:10.460 where they were

01:09:11.040 giving advice

01:09:11.620 all of these things

01:09:12.600 are to be welcomed

01:09:13.280 but broadly

01:09:15.340 I'm torn

01:09:16.700 honestly

01:09:17.240 But because we now

01:09:18.140 can have the debate

01:09:18.980 because the era

01:09:19.760 of no debate

01:09:20.440 is over

01:09:21.120 once you have

01:09:22.940 this debate

01:09:23.480 it's fairly clear

01:09:24.820 which side

01:09:25.480 the public

01:09:26.020 are going to fall on

01:09:26.800 Yeah

01:09:27.000 The reason why

01:09:28.280 Stonewall always said

01:09:29.480 no debate

01:09:30.040 is because this stuff

01:09:31.120 doesn't withstand

01:09:32.200 that kind of scrutiny

01:09:33.200 What do you think mate?

01:09:34.480 I actually

01:09:34.920 I'm in agreement

01:09:35.660 with Andrew

01:09:36.180 I think that

01:09:37.060 What five years

01:09:37.820 do you think?

01:09:38.360 Give it five years

01:09:38.900 and it'll be gone?

01:09:39.480 Well I think

01:09:40.160 this is the start

01:09:41.060 because you've got

01:09:42.360 to hit a moment

01:09:43.500 where like I said

01:09:45.220 that jump the shark

01:09:46.240 moment

01:09:46.580 and for me

01:09:47.340 it was

01:09:47.940 Isla Bryson

01:09:49.200 with a face tattoo

01:09:50.820 two time male rapist

01:09:52.520 in a woman's prison

01:09:53.480 where people are like

01:09:54.240 what?

01:09:54.580 and I think more and more

01:09:56.200 and I think the thing

01:09:57.380 that we're not talking about

01:09:58.740 but that's actually

01:09:59.460 really going to play a part

01:10:00.380 in all of this collapsing

01:10:01.760 is the fact that

01:10:02.960 mainstream media

01:10:04.380 they're hemorrhaging viewers

01:10:06.600 they're hemorrhaging influence

01:10:08.560 if you look at Channel 4

01:10:10.100 which does all this

01:10:11.020 kind of stuff

01:10:12.080 on the last leg

01:10:12.880 the last leg

01:10:13.880 I was talking to a producer

01:10:15.460 I think it was a Channel 4

01:10:16.600 comedy producer

01:10:17.320 who was basically saying to me

01:10:18.980 look we're hemorrhaging viewers

01:10:20.280 no one's watching this stuff anymore

01:10:21.800 they're putting out

01:10:22.780 all of this content

01:10:23.680 it's crap

01:10:24.840 it's just lecturing people

01:10:26.600 and nobody's watching it

01:10:28.260 and I think

01:10:29.200 the more and more

01:10:29.980 that happens

01:10:30.640 the less powerful

01:10:31.760 and less prevalent

01:10:32.360 this is going to be

01:10:33.080 Is this really true Jeff?

01:10:34.340 because you're someone

01:10:35.120 who does all the big shows

01:10:36.760 comedy shows on TV

01:10:37.860 I did most of them once

01:10:39.700 But you know

01:10:41.400 you're very much

01:10:42.100 in that kind of environment

01:10:43.460 I'm a double agent

01:10:44.680 let's call it what it is

01:10:45.840 You play both sides

01:10:46.620 You're bisexual

01:10:48.480 Or non-binary

01:10:49.740 You're non-binary

01:10:50.620 Is it

01:10:51.960 because I think

01:10:52.920 there's a danger

01:10:53.960 of people like us

01:10:54.760 particularly the two of us

01:10:55.800 and also to some extent Andrew

01:10:57.140 where you know

01:10:58.220 we spend a lot of time

01:10:59.100 in this kind of online space

01:11:00.660 it's very tempting

01:11:02.020 for us to tell ourselves

01:11:03.180 the story

01:11:03.740 oh look at the mainstream media

01:11:05.020 they're crumbling

01:11:05.660 their ratings

01:11:06.260 look at they cancelled

01:11:07.140 Mock the Week

01:11:07.660 oh look they cancelled this

01:11:08.740 the mass report's

01:11:09.780 no longer there

01:11:10.420 that you used to be on

01:11:11.900 I used to work with you on

01:11:12.940 etc

01:11:13.540 Is it true?

01:11:16.280 I think that

01:11:17.000 if

01:11:17.600 the last leg

01:11:18.960 still does well

01:11:20.060 in relative terms

01:11:21.100 you know

01:11:21.500 so if it's still on

01:11:23.120 it's probably because

01:11:23.900 it's doing well

01:11:24.420 particularly on a

01:11:25.120 on a commercial channel

01:11:26.580 so I think that

01:11:27.820 there's a problem

01:11:28.480 I mean such a big problem

01:11:29.760 for terrestrial television

01:11:30.820 generally

01:11:31.260 if you look at the drop

01:11:32.620 in ratings

01:11:33.400 I don't know what

01:11:34.400 last leg's ratings are

01:11:35.300 but whatever it might have dropped

01:11:36.840 it'll probably be in line

01:11:37.820 with most of it

01:11:38.640 so you know

01:11:39.900 the problem for comedy

01:11:41.420 generally

01:11:42.220 if that's kind of

01:11:43.280 where this discussion's going

01:11:44.320 is just at the time

01:11:46.640 right

01:11:46.860 maybe about 2016

01:11:47.920 2017

01:11:48.400 where streamers

01:11:50.240 started to have influence

01:11:51.240 where YouTube

01:11:52.620 people could basically

01:11:53.700 go and get the comedy

01:11:54.760 that they want

01:11:55.320 whether it's edgy comedy

01:11:56.340 one-liners

01:11:57.080 introspective

01:11:57.820 they could basically

01:11:58.860 go and get it

01:11:59.580 just at that point

01:12:00.840 on terrestrial television

01:12:01.780 it became afraid

01:12:03.020 of its own shadow

01:12:03.880 a little bit

01:12:04.740 you know

01:12:05.040 and it became risk averse

01:12:06.440 and it had all sorts of things

01:12:07.420 that it had to attend to

01:12:08.500 which got in the way

01:12:09.480 of simply going

01:12:10.160 is this funny

01:12:11.060 is this going to appeal

01:12:12.220 to a broad audience

01:12:13.200 so it's been kind of

01:12:14.540 you know

01:12:14.820 it's been kind of hampered

01:12:16.200 in a big way

01:12:18.320 you know

01:12:18.940 because like if you go

01:12:19.700 comedy's so visceral

01:12:20.820 right

01:12:21.160 you watch something

01:12:21.920 you go

01:12:22.200 that guy's funny

01:12:23.040 or that woman's funny

01:12:23.660 I'm going to go

01:12:24.000 and see him on tour

01:12:24.460 it occurs within you

01:12:25.840 it's a physical thing

01:12:27.300 so you can't put in

01:12:28.260 a laugh track

01:12:28.840 or do any of that

01:12:30.100 and if you're not satisfied

01:12:31.740 right

01:12:32.380 because it's so visceral

01:12:33.700 you'll go

01:12:34.260 where else can I get

01:12:35.080 that feeling

01:12:35.520 because laughing

01:12:36.200 is a great feeling

01:12:37.320 that's exactly

01:12:38.080 what they negated

01:12:39.020 wasn't it

01:12:39.320 what the activists did

01:12:40.280 to comedy

01:12:40.720 insofar as they were

01:12:41.480 expecting audiences

01:12:42.220 to sit there

01:12:43.160 hear the joke

01:12:43.980 assess whether it was

01:12:44.960 morally pure

01:12:45.620 and then laugh

01:12:46.560 to endorse the point

01:12:47.680 being made

01:12:48.220 and that's not how

01:12:49.100 laughter works

01:12:49.680 I mean I think

01:12:50.280 that there is now

01:12:51.100 it's going back a bit

01:12:52.620 you know

01:12:52.920 like when I have meetings

01:12:53.900 and stuff

01:12:54.280 and I speak to people

01:12:55.260 you know

01:12:55.900 if for example

01:12:56.660 Channel 4 last year

01:12:58.120 they backed Jimmy Carr

01:12:59.220 after that joke

01:13:00.140 from his Netflix special

01:13:01.180 you know

01:13:01.760 we see him

01:13:02.100 Netflix stand in their ground

01:13:03.420 the meetings

01:13:04.240 that I'm having

01:13:04.740 with people at the BBC

01:13:05.780 they're like

01:13:06.260 we want it to have Tifa

01:13:07.220 we want it

01:13:07.660 it just

01:13:08.200 it feels like

01:13:08.780 there was some lost years

01:13:09.860 in there somewhere

01:13:11.000 I mean I would say

01:13:11.980 that one place

01:13:12.580 that's genuinely

01:13:13.260 you know

01:13:13.720 that talk

01:13:14.380 that Jim

01:13:14.740 Jim Davies

01:13:16.760 this will go down well

01:13:19.380 Tim Davies

01:13:20.100 when he said about

01:13:22.000 having diversity of opinion

01:13:23.280 which is not a controversial

01:13:24.380 view to anybody

01:13:26.740 I think the BBC radio

01:13:29.080 actually really

01:13:29.720 was the only ones

01:13:30.300 that really

01:13:30.800 consistently ran with that

01:13:32.740 you know

01:13:33.080 if you look at like

01:13:34.340 things like

01:13:34.920 particularly news quiz

01:13:35.940 where

01:13:36.220 just have

01:13:37.100 you know

01:13:37.420 every source in the lab

01:13:38.200 someone like me

01:13:38.840 someone like Simon Evans

01:13:40.040 someone like you

01:13:41.500 you know

01:13:42.020 Alan Cochran

01:13:42.880 will pop up on there

01:13:43.720 because I think

01:13:44.820 it just makes it better

01:13:45.920 the point is

01:13:46.700 it's nothing

01:13:47.040 it's nothing ideological

01:13:48.240 yeah I did the moral maze

01:13:49.420 this year as well

01:13:49.960 I mean they are trying

01:13:51.020 something's changing

01:13:52.540 because I've noticed

01:13:53.240 this with

01:13:53.580 it's like you know

01:13:54.240 when I set up

01:13:55.040 Comedy Unleashed

01:13:55.600 like five years ago

01:13:56.660 with Andy Shaw

01:13:57.340 and lots of people said

01:13:58.800 oh there's no need

01:13:59.440 for any of this

01:13:59.880 which we don't get

01:14:00.400 that criticism anymore

01:14:01.340 because comedians

01:14:02.420 do get cancelled

01:14:03.080 but we've had

01:14:04.500 recently a Guardian

01:14:05.460 article about it

01:14:06.220 that wasn't a hit piece

01:14:07.380 I mean it was

01:14:08.320 it was you know

01:14:09.020 it was a bit sniffy

01:14:09.960 and sneery

01:14:10.420 but it wasn't a hit piece

01:14:11.320 we had a nice thing

01:14:12.520 in Sky

01:14:13.000 Sky covered it

01:14:13.920 they came along to film

01:14:14.980 I thought they were

01:14:15.460 going to do a hit piece

01:14:16.120 and it was just

01:14:16.560 actually quite nice

01:14:17.760 I think that there's

01:14:18.940 really good like

01:14:19.640 green shoots

01:14:20.320 of a kind of recovery

01:14:21.940 recovery is just

01:14:23.160 to remember

01:14:23.640 that comedy is comedy

01:14:24.620 and it's supposed

01:14:25.060 to be funny

01:14:25.540 but the controversy

01:14:26.900 around Matt Rife

01:14:27.840 right

01:14:28.120 so you know

01:14:28.920 what is the controversy

01:14:30.320 so the controversy

01:14:31.040 was there was a joke

01:14:32.120 at the beginning

01:14:32.580 of his special

01:14:33.240 which essentially

01:14:33.880 was a domestic

01:14:35.000 violence joke

01:14:36.480 in many ways

01:14:36.920 personally I didn't

01:14:37.900 like the joke

01:14:38.440 but I recognised

01:14:39.320 that it was just a joke

01:14:40.380 I was surprised

01:14:41.180 that it was in his special

01:14:42.520 I just didn't think

01:14:43.440 it met the quality

01:14:44.060 threshold for something

01:14:44.840 like that

01:14:45.260 but ultimately

01:14:46.080 that was his choice

01:14:47.480 the audience on the night

01:14:48.420 it's fair to say

01:14:49.120 laughed at it

01:14:49.720 quite heartily

01:14:50.340 what I thought

01:14:51.140 was really heartening

01:14:52.040 on TikTok

01:14:52.780 and other places

01:14:53.680 was the young people

01:14:54.660 coming for him

01:14:55.260 no one was saying

01:14:56.220 he should lose his job

01:14:56.960 no one was saying

01:14:57.840 his things should be

01:14:58.360 taken down

01:14:58.800 what they were doing

01:14:59.780 was they were

01:15:00.220 attacking the joke

01:15:01.400 they were attacking

01:15:02.180 the idea

01:15:02.940 and I think

01:15:03.600 good

01:15:04.060 that's all that's

01:15:05.620 happened

01:15:05.840 it's gone back

01:15:07.020 to how it should

01:15:07.640 have always been

01:15:08.420 it's not quite there

01:15:09.320 yeah

01:15:09.480 but even within a year

01:15:10.860 I mean if you take

01:15:11.420 like when Jerry Sadowitz

01:15:12.460 show got cancelled

01:15:13.920 by Pleasance

01:15:14.920 last year

01:15:15.940 last Edinburgh Fringe

01:15:16.960 and he's like

01:15:17.660 as you know

01:15:18.420 major veteran

01:15:19.240 of the circuit

01:15:19.820 and respected

01:15:20.720 by all the sort of

01:15:22.040 woke comics as well

01:15:23.040 but this year

01:15:24.500 when our show

01:15:25.240 got cancelled

01:15:25.920 by the Leith Arches

01:15:27.980 in Edinburgh

01:15:28.460 because Graham Linehan

01:15:29.760 was on the bill

01:15:30.400 and then it got cancelled

01:15:32.220 by a second venue

01:15:33.000 and the show

01:15:33.440 ended up on a platform

01:15:34.460 outside

01:15:34.840 in the open air

01:15:35.960 outside the Scottish Parliament

01:15:37.000 but lots of people

01:15:38.380 said this was ridiculous

01:15:40.120 even some people

01:15:40.920 I didn't expect

01:15:41.740 you know the people

01:15:42.620 the comedians

01:15:43.160 who normally say

01:15:44.140 yeah well you shouldn't

01:15:44.740 say problematic things

01:15:45.620 then

01:15:45.820 started coming out

01:15:46.920 and say actually

01:15:47.520 so I mean

01:15:48.500 just don't go and see

01:15:49.380 a comedy show

01:15:49.860 if you think you'll be offended

01:15:50.920 don't cancel it

01:15:51.800 that's a big shift

01:15:52.840 even within that year

01:15:53.900 I think the responses

01:15:55.120 to those two shows

01:15:56.960 shows that it's changing

01:15:58.300 well do you know

01:15:58.800 what happens though

01:15:59.340 is over time

01:16:00.000 everyone would have

01:16:00.720 been told off

01:16:01.340 the longer this thing goes

01:16:02.520 so I think in many ways

01:16:04.840 left wing comics

01:16:05.860 you know progressive comics

01:16:07.560 get more crap than we do

01:16:09.080 because people look at us

01:16:10.580 and go well these guys

01:16:11.340 they'll say out of order stuff

01:16:12.660 that's what they do

01:16:13.540 they're arseholes

01:16:14.140 you know

01:16:14.480 and stuff

01:16:15.220 but the thing is

01:16:15.780 when you're on the left

01:16:16.760 sometimes you're hemmed in

01:16:18.720 where there's these expectations

01:16:20.620 if you step out of line

01:16:21.700 you'll get absolutely devoured

01:16:22.980 so over time

01:16:24.120 what happens is

01:16:24.780 comics goes

01:16:25.280 well I thought I was on that side

01:16:26.760 and you all tried to destroy me

01:16:28.680 and so they realise

01:16:29.880 they're worse with each other

01:16:30.900 aren't they

01:16:31.300 they can be

01:16:32.040 and what they realise over time

01:16:33.420 is like

01:16:33.920 like actually

01:16:34.700 it's really precious

01:16:35.640 to just be able to

01:16:36.640 to have the right

01:16:38.200 to get it wrong

01:16:38.920 no I don't mind

01:16:40.020 when people say

01:16:40.400 I didn't like that joke

01:16:41.340 because

01:16:41.800 it's when I didn't like that joke

01:16:43.600 and you should lose your living

01:16:45.360 yeah

01:16:45.740 I mean

01:16:46.520 it really is a terrible thing

01:16:48.240 to not have a sense of humour

01:16:49.220 or to be

01:16:50.500 I think of all the things

01:16:51.540 you could be upset about

01:16:52.460 at the moment

01:16:52.840 comedy is just

01:16:53.860 it's just the weirdest one

01:16:54.900 and on that very point

01:16:55.960 unless you wanted to

01:16:56.800 I was just going to

01:16:58.500 just add as well

01:16:59.300 it's

01:16:59.600 I should have mentioned

01:17:00.980 my tour at that point

01:17:01.780 I mean it was absolutely

01:17:02.840 I mean Constantine

01:17:05.140 was literally looking at me

01:17:06.380 like

01:17:06.640 okay we got it

01:17:07.620 onto the comedy subject

01:17:08.700 somehow

01:17:09.160 and my incredibly

01:17:10.800 controversial show

01:17:12.020 people

01:17:12.700 being sick

01:17:13.680 remember

01:17:13.960 you're the woke one

01:17:14.720 on here

01:17:15.000 yeah exactly

01:17:15.720 my edgelord

01:17:17.280 basic bloke

01:17:18.560 people have been

01:17:19.180 passing out

01:17:20.000 it's like

01:17:20.620 you know

01:17:20.900 those horror films

01:17:22.820 in the 70s

01:17:23.820 it just

01:17:24.220 it's

01:17:25.040 yeah that's on tour

01:17:26.200 next year

01:17:27.280 but I say this

01:17:28.140 it's like

01:17:28.740 one thing that never changed

01:17:29.980 and I'm sure you guys

01:17:30.880 would have experienced this

01:17:31.740 live audiences

01:17:32.760 were always great

01:17:33.720 you know

01:17:33.940 more or less always

01:17:34.740 there was a tiny percentage

01:17:36.100 of people that got emboldened

01:17:37.320 but it was never like

01:17:38.480 how it was on social media

01:17:39.700 because

01:17:39.940 you know

01:17:40.340 most people are adults

01:17:41.080 that's right

01:17:41.600 yeah

01:17:41.780 that is very true

01:17:43.180 I did get booed

01:17:44.480 at a gig on Thursday

01:17:45.440 but

01:17:45.720 well let's leave that aside

01:17:47.060 yeah but

01:17:47.640 that's just equality

01:17:48.560 what had you said

01:17:51.400 can you give us a flavour

01:17:52.860 of what it was

01:17:53.380 you'd upset

01:17:53.820 how you'd upset them

01:17:54.700 well it was

01:17:55.900 it was a new material night

01:17:57.280 and they were very

01:17:58.640 very progressive

01:17:59.520 was it your new material night

01:18:00.660 no no no

01:18:01.540 because I did his one

01:18:02.460 they were all psychopaths

01:18:03.980 yeah they heckled you

01:18:05.760 off the stage

01:18:06.460 yeah

01:18:06.820 yeah

01:18:07.300 and you deserved it

01:18:09.000 and I gave them

01:18:10.120 a little round of applause

01:18:10.920 when you left

01:18:11.300 no

01:18:11.540 I remember you were looking

01:18:13.380 at going

01:18:13.780 what is going on here

01:18:14.900 and that was a truly

01:18:15.580 beautiful moment for me

01:18:16.800 Jeff

01:18:16.980 well you made me realise

01:18:18.500 that my audience

01:18:19.300 just seemed like

01:18:20.160 rabid centrist

01:18:21.080 compared to

01:18:21.840 whatever rabble

01:18:22.940 you've procured

01:18:23.600 yeah the absolute lunatics

01:18:24.880 yeah no I just

01:18:26.000 I just did a joke

01:18:26.900 about pronouns

01:18:27.640 and

01:18:28.380 and you got booed

01:18:29.600 by your audience

01:18:30.420 yeah yeah

01:18:30.840 well no no no

01:18:31.520 this was a new material night

01:18:33.120 which is a very nice gig

01:18:34.440 a new material gig

01:18:35.340 and then they were

01:18:36.140 they were already

01:18:37.220 upset

01:18:38.140 and then I went

01:18:39.240 look I'm going to bring it down

01:18:40.520 let's not

01:18:41.120 let's not get upset

01:18:41.880 I'm just going to do some bits

01:18:43.600 about Israel-Palestine

01:18:45.040 and that really

01:18:46.040 like

01:18:46.640 even though it wasn't

01:18:47.760 controversial the bit

01:18:48.560 they heard the words

01:18:49.400 and I did it

01:18:50.600 and it just went

01:18:51.500 further and further

01:18:52.260 and you know it's bad

01:18:53.160 because the only laughter

01:18:54.100 I could hear

01:18:54.580 was the laughter

01:18:55.500 of the comedians

01:18:56.240 well

01:18:57.040 that's when you know

01:18:58.280 it's really gone downhill

01:18:59.300 that's still quite enjoyable

01:19:00.280 isn't it

01:19:00.800 yeah

01:19:01.040 yeah

01:19:01.880 what was the pronouns joke

01:19:03.760 what was the pronouns joke

01:19:05.440 I'm still working on it

01:19:06.520 so

01:19:06.780 yeah

01:19:07.160 it was just a shit joke

01:19:08.560 yeah

01:19:08.960 yeah

01:19:09.500 because if it was a groan

01:19:10.560 that's a slightly different thing

01:19:11.880 no it was a hiss

01:19:12.680 wow

01:19:13.560 wow

01:19:14.180 pantomime season's begun

01:19:15.300 yeah

01:19:15.680 anyway

01:19:16.500 smoothly

01:19:17.360 moving on

01:19:18.100 very smoothly

01:19:18.760 Jeff you were saying

01:19:20.040 I can't believe people

01:19:20.840 would get upset about comedy

01:19:21.880 in the current moment

01:19:22.600 and of course

01:19:23.160 next year

01:19:23.820 we have

01:19:24.880 two elections

01:19:25.780 one here

01:19:27.100 one in the United States

01:19:28.200 Donald Trump

01:19:29.760 might be running from prison

01:19:31.300 unlikely

01:19:31.940 I hope so

01:19:32.480 could happen

01:19:32.860 you know

01:19:33.940 what's going to happen

01:19:34.700 in the UK as well

01:19:35.680 like

01:19:35.880 we're looking forward to that

01:19:37.080 what are you guys thinking about

01:19:38.280 I think America is insane

01:19:40.100 the idea

01:19:40.740 how gangster would that be

01:19:42.420 if he ran from prison

01:19:43.340 like he does it over Zoom

01:19:44.920 right

01:19:45.260 he's like

01:19:45.800 that would be

01:19:46.480 that would be astonishing

01:19:47.300 and I didn't realise

01:19:47.940 you could do that

01:19:48.720 but apparently in America

01:19:49.800 you can

01:19:50.980 even if you've been a prosecutor

01:19:53.240 you can still run

01:19:54.400 but I just think

01:19:55.940 it's

01:19:56.820 is that the best they can do

01:19:58.800 and Biden

01:19:59.320 I mean

01:19:59.580 I don't think the Democrats

01:20:00.640 ever wanted Biden around

01:20:02.180 and I don't think he wants to be there

01:20:04.360 no

01:20:04.680 and the whole thing is so tragic

01:20:05.920 I don't know

01:20:07.620 the paucity of options

01:20:09.400 is going to be an issue

01:20:10.540 in both elections

01:20:11.740 you know

01:20:12.120 and that could affect turnout

01:20:13.240 which you'd say might

01:20:14.240 sort of benefit

01:20:14.840 the more conservative side

01:20:15.760 that tend to be more mobilised

01:20:17.080 for voting

01:20:18.080 but

01:20:18.420 look

01:20:19.180 when Trump won against Hillary

01:20:21.460 a lot of left wing people

01:20:22.600 lost their minds

01:20:23.200 how could you do this

01:20:24.200 this guy is a toxic figure

01:20:25.460 I don't know

01:20:26.440 if it will be the same next time

01:20:27.580 because I think

01:20:28.080 even those people

01:20:29.080 might go

01:20:29.660 well the other guy

01:20:30.960 is senile

01:20:31.860 like it really

01:20:32.680 and it is an incredible situation

01:20:34.840 where Trump gets to seem

01:20:36.300 like the sprightly young thing

01:20:37.920 I mean

01:20:39.220 you've got two guys

01:20:40.560 essentially

01:20:40.900 that could cause a world war

01:20:42.040 one

01:20:42.820 because he was upset

01:20:44.200 and the other one

01:20:45.500 by accident

01:20:46.240 you know

01:20:46.720 Joe Biden

01:20:47.460 I mean it's such a serious thing

01:20:49.360 you know

01:20:49.660 in the States

01:20:50.060 being a commander in chief

01:20:51.080 having the nuclear codes

01:20:52.580 all those things

01:20:53.220 and you know

01:20:54.240 you cannot judge

01:20:55.380 an American voter

01:20:56.780 who at that point

01:20:57.600 says

01:20:57.880 I don't want somebody

01:20:58.960 who's clearly suffering

01:20:59.780 with mental issues

01:21:00.540 to be that person

01:21:01.360 and on that very point

01:21:02.480 I think one of the things

01:21:03.420 that really plays

01:21:04.420 into Trump's hands

01:21:05.200 and he's clearly

01:21:05.800 going to be the nominee

01:21:06.600 as we sit here today

01:21:07.820 and he's ahead of Biden

01:21:09.240 as far as I understand

01:21:10.120 in terms of the polling

01:21:10.940 is that

01:21:12.180 what you have seen

01:21:13.100 since Biden

01:21:13.660 has come in

01:21:14.640 and this may be

01:21:15.660 maybe correlation

01:21:16.980 is not causation

01:21:17.720 but it might be

01:21:18.540 you know

01:21:19.200 the collapse of American power

01:21:21.480 around the world

01:21:22.240 the fact that

01:21:23.020 people are quite happy

01:21:24.940 you know

01:21:25.420 Putin's quite happy

01:21:26.360 to have a little nibble

01:21:27.860 at Ukraine

01:21:28.420 you know

01:21:29.000 under Biden's watch

01:21:29.960 look at what happened

01:21:30.880 in Afghanistan

01:21:31.480 Israel-Palestine

01:21:32.580 I mean that is clearly

01:21:33.540 you know

01:21:34.400 it's America's central ally

01:21:35.980 in the Middle East

01:21:36.980 Iran feeling free

01:21:39.460 to support Hamas

01:21:41.520 into making that attack

01:21:42.640 it just shows you

01:21:43.740 that the fear

01:21:45.160 and respect

01:21:45.920 that America commands

01:21:46.940 around the world

01:21:47.520 is declining

01:21:48.140 and when you've got a guy

01:21:49.880 who keeps falling over

01:21:51.100 and you know

01:21:52.280 is clearly not at his peak

01:21:54.140 in charge

01:21:55.700 it's not unreasonable

01:21:57.500 for the American public

01:21:59.160 to think

01:21:59.720 well

01:22:00.400 whatever that guy

01:22:01.440 might be tweeting

01:22:02.220 and you know

01:22:03.000 January of the 6th

01:22:03.860 was not a good look

01:22:04.720 and not a good thing

01:22:05.660 to have happened

01:22:06.580 and lots of other issues

01:22:07.640 that people will have

01:22:08.420 with Trump

01:22:08.780 you just look at that

01:22:09.980 and you go

01:22:10.380 on balance

01:22:11.580 do I want this

01:22:13.940 or do I want the guy

01:22:15.320 with the mean tweets

01:22:16.220 and I think a lot of people

01:22:17.720 will see that

01:22:19.020 as quite an easy choice

01:22:20.380 I suspect

01:22:20.780 I think the thing

01:22:21.760 with Trump

01:22:22.360 that you notice

01:22:23.100 that some of the foreign policy

01:22:24.240 the issues overseas

01:22:25.440 didn't happen

01:22:26.100 because I guess

01:22:27.220 it's partly because

01:22:28.400 he's a deeply flawed character

01:22:29.780 Donald Trump

01:22:30.360 but part of that is

01:22:31.460 was Putin

01:22:31.920 was unsure

01:22:32.820 of how he might react

01:22:33.720 right

01:22:34.280 do you remember

01:22:34.740 when he bombed

01:22:35.680 that airstrip

01:22:36.740 in Syria

01:22:37.360 no one expected

01:22:38.140 that to happen

01:22:38.640 that clearly

01:22:39.420 surprised the Russian

01:22:41.300 administration

01:22:42.080 it doesn't seem to me

01:22:43.280 when did

01:22:43.880 when did Trump

01:22:44.580 leave office

01:22:45.380 it was 2020

01:22:46.540 right

01:22:46.920 so the inauguration

01:22:47.960 early 2021

01:22:49.180 2021

01:22:49.800 2021

01:22:50.620 right

01:22:51.180 because they had

01:22:51.540 the election

01:22:52.020 yeah

01:22:52.400 invasion of Ukraine

01:22:53.640 happens

01:22:54.060 you know

01:22:54.440 so you're saying

01:22:55.260 it's quite a good thing

01:22:56.100 no no

01:22:56.380 that happened in 2022

01:22:57.180 sorry

01:22:57.600 but a year after

01:22:58.920 but there was Afghanistan

01:22:59.880 first

01:23:00.280 Afghanistan pull out

01:23:02.080 was first

01:23:02.660 which was a disaster

01:23:04.080 yeah

01:23:04.400 then you get Ukraine

01:23:06.140 yeah

01:23:06.420 and now you get Israel

01:23:07.420 Palestine

01:23:07.660 now I'm not saying

01:23:08.280 for one second

01:23:08.840 if Donald Trump's

01:23:09.560 in position

01:23:10.940 that none of those

01:23:12.000 things happen

01:23:12.520 but the unpredictability

01:23:14.720 of him

01:23:15.200 if you're wargaming

01:23:16.260 a reaction

01:23:16.700 I feel with certain

01:23:17.660 certainty

01:23:18.420 they could say

01:23:19.320 well there's a line

01:23:20.160 that Biden won't cross

01:23:21.100 I wonder if that's

01:23:21.980 the same with Trump

01:23:22.540 but the downside of that

01:23:23.100 is that he might

01:23:23.560 cross that line

01:23:24.120 yeah

01:23:24.360 so you could say

01:23:25.600 you know

01:23:25.840 having someone

01:23:26.480 unhinged in charge

01:23:27.540 is great

01:23:27.960 because people are nervous

01:23:28.880 yeah he's my psycho

01:23:30.460 but I'm so surprised

01:23:32.700 the Republican

01:23:33.160 I think you're probably right

01:23:34.660 it is wrapped up for Trump

01:23:35.780 but you know

01:23:36.120 if they had gone with

01:23:36.940 someone like DeSantis

01:23:37.620 then Biden would have

01:23:38.700 been creamed

01:23:39.540 yeah absolutely

01:23:40.080 I think Biden's creamed

01:23:41.440 anyway mate

01:23:42.100 I'm not so sure

01:23:43.000 because the resentment

01:23:44.360 against Trump

01:23:44.920 is so extreme

01:23:45.880 that the ones

01:23:47.220 who would typically

01:23:47.820 vote Republican

01:23:48.460 there's a lot of them

01:23:49.040 out there who won't

01:23:49.800 who won't do it

01:23:50.460 but do you think

01:23:51.220 that there are

01:23:51.900 younger voters

01:23:52.860 that were so

01:23:53.700 hell-bent on getting

01:23:54.660 Trump out that time

01:23:55.480 that was

01:23:55.800 it was almost like

01:23:56.480 get Brexit done

01:23:57.200 in a way

01:23:57.520 it's one of those

01:23:58.100 single issue things

01:23:59.060 that actually people

01:24:00.160 people mistake it

01:24:01.160 as a mass endorsement

01:24:02.180 of a party or a politician

01:24:03.460 when actually it's one thing

01:24:04.880 get Trump out

01:24:06.040 now that having happened

01:24:07.480 and Biden having

01:24:08.480 frankly disappointed

01:24:09.560 a lot of people

01:24:10.200 on the left left

01:24:10.920 in the states

01:24:11.700 I wonder if they see

01:24:12.800 they're as mobilised

01:24:14.620 or motivated

01:24:15.300 to do that again

01:24:16.220 that is a good point

01:24:17.000 and by the way

01:24:17.620 Biden has been

01:24:18.520 very strong

01:24:19.260 on supporting Israel

01:24:20.680 and has alienated

01:24:22.740 a lot of his voters

01:24:23.460 as a result

01:24:24.680 yeah

01:24:25.000 the people that

01:24:26.480 you know

01:24:27.300 the Democratic Party

01:24:28.280 has been courting

01:24:28.880 for some time

01:24:29.500 so Biden

01:24:30.380 it's not like

01:24:31.020 Biden has done

01:24:31.820 everything badly

01:24:32.620 but you have to

01:24:33.700 look at it on balance

01:24:34.960 and for the Americans

01:24:36.320 especially you know

01:24:37.240 Francis and I

01:24:37.960 are fortunate enough

01:24:39.000 to spend a little bit

01:24:39.680 more time there nowadays

01:24:40.680 when you talk to people

01:24:41.940 there

01:24:42.260 you know

01:24:42.720 I think

01:24:43.160 seeing that country

01:24:45.400 become weaker

01:24:46.800 on the international stage

01:24:48.600 is something

01:24:49.000 that really affects people

01:24:50.280 and how they see

01:24:51.180 how they see their president

01:24:52.460 how they see

01:24:53.060 the political system

01:24:54.040 and also

01:24:55.300 if you look at the economy

01:24:56.440 you know

01:24:56.960 things are getting

01:24:57.740 so expensive

01:24:58.820 yeah

01:24:59.360 and that may have happened

01:25:01.100 under Trump

01:25:01.660 it may not

01:25:02.280 but you know

01:25:03.280 the economy

01:25:03.780 is something

01:25:04.480 that people will judge

01:25:05.580 a politician on

01:25:07.660 even if it's not

01:25:08.580 their responsibility

01:25:09.600 and it hasn't been

01:25:10.480 a good time for America

01:25:11.220 I mean

01:25:11.400 I'm now thinking

01:25:12.680 maybe I've been

01:25:13.260 a bit unfair

01:25:13.860 on Biden

01:25:14.200 with foreign policy

01:25:15.200 because they were

01:25:15.900 initially with Ukraine

01:25:16.840 it was a very strong

01:25:17.660 sort of reaction

01:25:18.800 that's ebbed away

01:25:19.500 I guess there's a chance

01:25:20.680 with Trump

01:25:21.100 that he'd have just gone

01:25:22.220 not my business

01:25:22.880 not committing our money

01:25:23.940 they're not committing

01:25:24.680 our troops

01:25:25.360 you know

01:25:25.760 but that's the point

01:25:27.300 in a way with Trump

01:25:28.000 is it's just not clear cut

01:25:29.200 what he'll do

01:25:29.760 but that is an advantage

01:25:31.080 I mean in geopolitics

01:25:32.240 that is an advantage

01:25:33.080 if people don't know

01:25:34.300 what your move is going to be

01:25:35.460 it means they have to be

01:25:36.880 extra careful as a result

01:25:38.120 and you are then

01:25:38.900 not in a war

01:25:40.240 where Ukraine

01:25:41.040 has been invaded

01:25:41.800 because that has

01:25:43.380 already been prevented

01:25:44.260 do you see what I mean

01:25:44.880 that is the argument

01:25:45.940 the pro-Trump people

01:25:46.840 will make

01:25:47.260 so we'll find out

01:25:48.060 what happens there

01:25:48.660 but interesting for us

01:25:50.100 obviously all four of us

01:25:51.080 being based here in the UK

01:25:52.140 is how that maps

01:25:53.960 onto the election here

01:25:54.900 because my sense is

01:25:56.060 Labour are going to win

01:25:57.200 quite possibly

01:25:59.000 a landslide win

01:26:00.060 without actually

01:26:01.640 that being an endorsement

01:26:03.060 to your point

01:26:03.740 of the Labour Party

01:26:05.940 it might just be

01:26:07.120 a plague on both your houses

01:26:09.060 but there's more plague

01:26:10.040 for the Tories

01:26:10.720 than for Labour

01:26:11.580 and as a result

01:26:12.760 Labour ends up

01:26:13.540 with a majority

01:26:14.560 well I mean

01:26:15.240 you know

01:26:15.640 the 2019

01:26:16.240 general election victory

01:26:17.300 so much of that

01:26:18.000 was put down to Boris

01:26:19.020 the force of personality

01:26:19.980 he's done it

01:26:21.020 but he also

01:26:21.800 was up against

01:26:23.020 you know

01:26:23.300 get Brexit done

01:26:24.120 which was a great

01:26:24.860 campaign idea

01:26:25.860 Labour's position

01:26:26.920 at the time

01:26:27.360 and I love to mention it

01:26:28.140 as often as I can

01:26:28.800 was they were going to

01:26:29.840 crack a new deal

01:26:30.660 and then put it to a referendum

01:26:32.240 when they campaigned against it

01:26:34.120 which was a complete

01:26:34.780 non-position

01:26:35.300 on the single biggest thing

01:26:36.720 facing the country

01:26:37.380 at the time

01:26:37.860 Corbyn was massively

01:26:39.340 unpopular

01:26:40.580 so again

01:26:41.380 some of what happens

01:26:42.360 in elections

01:26:42.860 is things get mistaken

01:26:44.100 as a single thing

01:26:45.480 that drove it

01:26:45.940 or a single personality

01:26:47.060 and yeah

01:26:48.220 like if Labour get in

01:26:49.340 it will be interesting

01:26:50.340 to see what Starmer

01:26:51.260 I'm going to say

01:26:52.140 if it's almost

01:26:52.880 overwhelmingly unlikely

01:26:53.740 is what Starmer

01:26:56.240 interprets that as

01:26:57.140 I think like

01:26:58.000 in a weird way for him

01:26:59.100 a big majority

01:27:00.160 could be tricky

01:27:00.800 because there'll be

01:27:01.320 loads of Labour people

01:27:02.080 that go right

01:27:02.620 we've got a 200 seat majority

01:27:04.160 let's do some really

01:27:05.300 left-wing stuff

01:27:05.960 he's like

01:27:06.220 that's not what I was

01:27:07.000 voted in for

01:27:07.560 they go

01:27:08.040 all right

01:27:08.320 two years in

01:27:08.980 you're out son

01:27:09.960 we'll get in Andy Burnham

01:27:11.600 because they'll feel

01:27:12.400 like they've got time

01:27:13.080 to pull it back

01:27:13.600 before the next election

01:27:14.620 so I wonder

01:27:15.420 if just like when Cameron

01:27:16.460 there was that coalition

01:27:17.500 in 2010

01:27:18.140 that kept people in line

01:27:19.300 whether for Starmer's

01:27:20.400 point of view

01:27:20.760 a 60 seat majority

01:27:21.820 might be more manageable

01:27:22.800 than the 200 seat one

01:27:24.020 well maybe it won't be that

01:27:24.960 maybe there won't be a landslide

01:27:26.000 I mean I have a kind of feeling

01:27:27.740 that what could happen here

01:27:28.840 is that it won't be a landslide

01:27:29.960 there'll be a coalition

01:27:31.060 I think

01:27:31.840 and you might even end up

01:27:33.260 with a situation

01:27:33.800 where he has to go for electoral reform

01:27:37.080 as part of the bargain

01:27:37.860 and if that happens

01:27:39.220 and I hope that happens

01:27:40.520 I think we need

01:27:41.440 something needs to change fundamentally

01:27:43.260 and I think PR is the way to go

01:27:44.540 I think proportional representation

01:27:45.380 is the way to go

01:27:46.180 I think if that happens

01:27:47.920 then the whole field is open now

01:27:50.400 it means smaller parties

01:27:51.500 can make some kind of a difference

01:27:53.280 it means that we can get

01:27:54.120 we can have a more democratic society

01:27:56.000 and it works perfectly well

01:27:57.360 in European countries

01:27:58.220 these coalitions

01:27:58.980 I don't have any fear of that at all

01:28:00.520 you know one of the funniest things

01:28:01.560 in the last couple of years

01:28:02.480 were when it was still quite tight

01:28:03.780 between Labour and the Tories

01:28:04.860 there was all that stuff

01:28:05.840 hashtag progressive alliance

01:28:08.120 progressive alliance

01:28:09.520 the Lib Dems

01:28:10.180 bless them

01:28:10.600 they got so excited

01:28:11.760 and then the moment

01:28:13.600 that Labour opened up

01:28:14.560 a significant poll lead

01:28:15.860 the Lib Dems just got ghosted

01:28:17.460 out of existence

01:28:18.100 and that hashtag

01:28:19.440 stopped appearing

01:28:20.320 it is a weird thing

01:28:21.660 with the Lib Dems

01:28:22.760 right

01:28:22.920 they should be a force right now

01:28:24.260 because you've got

01:28:24.800 a deeply unpopular party in power

01:28:26.360 you've got a Labour party

01:28:27.540 that are apathetic

01:28:28.240 and disappointing

01:28:28.880 in their base already

01:28:29.840 before they've even got in power

01:28:31.100 at least Blair waited

01:28:32.220 until he was in four years

01:28:33.500 Lib Dems

01:28:34.660 they just don't have

01:28:35.300 an identity nationally

01:28:36.360 and when they campaign

01:28:37.580 they tend to like

01:28:38.780 they'll say one thing

01:28:39.620 in one constituency

01:28:40.580 they'll say

01:28:41.420 we want to build loads of houses

01:28:43.020 and they'll say

01:28:43.680 well we don't want that

01:28:44.340 and they'll go

01:28:44.620 well nor do we

01:28:45.340 we're against that

01:28:46.140 and they'll go to another by-election

01:28:48.000 and they'll say the opposite

01:28:49.040 because they're able to do that

01:28:50.940 in by-elections

01:28:51.620 I think the moment

01:28:52.180 they have to have

01:28:52.680 a national platform

01:28:53.660 and they're going to struggle

01:28:55.080 I mean this is weird

01:28:56.340 people say

01:28:56.840 why has this ended up

01:28:58.300 being a beat up

01:28:58.940 on the Lib Dems

01:28:59.760 I guess the point is

01:29:00.840 is that this should be ripe

01:29:02.280 for a third party

01:29:03.420 to make a difference

01:29:04.140 and actually the third party

01:29:05.280 that's more likely

01:29:05.960 to make a difference now

01:29:06.880 is reform

01:29:07.700 exactly

01:29:08.480 and the interesting thing

01:29:09.740 about reform

01:29:10.600 is it's not actually reform

01:29:12.100 it's the person

01:29:13.020 who set up reform

01:29:14.080 which is Nigel Farage

01:29:15.800 who you think

01:29:16.560 is going to be the leader

01:29:17.300 of the Tory party

01:29:17.960 well I don't think

01:29:18.860 I don't know

01:29:19.400 if he's going to be

01:29:19.940 the leader of the Tory party

01:29:21.000 but I think

01:29:21.820 Nigel is the political joker

01:29:23.800 in the pack

01:29:24.400 and the move

01:29:25.840 that Nigel makes

01:29:26.780 this will significantly

01:29:27.720 influence

01:29:28.600 the result

01:29:29.280 of the next general election

01:29:30.300 I think if he puts

01:29:31.640 if he goes full on reform

01:29:33.580 and it's like

01:29:34.280 look

01:29:34.640 we're going to hold

01:29:35.340 the Conservatives' feet

01:29:36.280 to the fire

01:29:36.780 we can all agree

01:29:37.760 the Conservative party

01:29:38.740 is no longer fit for purpose

01:29:39.980 you may vote for them

01:29:41.280 and they may say

01:29:42.480 a few things

01:29:43.000 but it's not going to happen

01:29:44.080 we all know it

01:29:45.100 vote for change

01:29:46.600 that will have

01:29:47.520 a very real impact

01:29:48.520 not only

01:29:49.360 on the Conservatives

01:29:50.780 but also on Labour

01:29:51.760 because there's this attitude

01:29:53.140 amongst Labour

01:29:53.820 that oh you know

01:29:54.800 working class people

01:29:55.700 have been disappointed

01:29:56.340 the Tories

01:29:56.860 they're going to come back

01:29:57.540 to us

01:29:57.940 well why should they

01:29:59.220 when you have failed

01:30:00.120 them for generations

01:30:00.840 when Soella

01:30:01.440 had to leave the government

01:30:02.860 actually what you saw

01:30:04.340 is a lot of people saying

01:30:05.800 well working class people

01:30:07.840 in the North

01:30:08.220 I mean that basically

01:30:09.240 lost the Tory party

01:30:10.360 the Red Wall

01:30:10.900 her leaving

01:30:11.840 and those people

01:30:12.560 they're not going to vote

01:30:13.380 for Labour

01:30:13.860 a lot of them

01:30:14.920 are going to vote

01:30:15.380 for reform

01:30:15.860 or abstain completely

01:30:16.900 and Labour may end up

01:30:18.400 getting back in

01:30:19.120 but that isn't

01:30:20.120 do you see what I'm saying

01:30:20.920 the thing about reform

01:30:21.660 though is they don't

01:30:22.380 stand a big

01:30:23.040 just like UKIP

01:30:24.040 chance of winning

01:30:24.780 in any single constituency

01:30:26.160 so they can poll

01:30:27.320 11 or 12%

01:30:28.220 whereas the Lib Dems

01:30:28.940 actually got chances

01:30:29.880 of winning seats

01:30:31.100 if we had PPR

01:30:32.980 you know

01:30:33.900 they would be

01:30:34.500 I agree with you Jeff

01:30:35.640 but what they can do

01:30:37.120 is take maybe enough votes

01:30:38.460 away from the Conservatives

01:30:39.740 that somebody else

01:30:40.940 comes in

01:30:41.400 like a Lib Dem

01:30:42.660 for example

01:30:43.280 or maybe

01:30:44.660 they could mobilise

01:30:45.700 enough of the

01:30:46.560 traditional working class

01:30:48.120 old school Labour

01:30:49.000 that it might mean

01:30:50.180 that another party

01:30:51.640 gets in

01:30:52.040 or a Conservative

01:30:52.700 might win

01:30:53.360 so it's going to be

01:30:54.760 very interesting

01:30:55.600 to see the moves

01:30:56.500 that Nigel makes

01:30:57.460 because I think

01:30:58.940 that is going to have

01:30:59.500 a very real

01:31:00.340 significant impact

01:31:01.180 on the result

01:31:01.720 of the election

01:31:02.240 I mean

01:31:02.980 it was interesting

01:31:04.280 with Faraj on

01:31:05.320 I'm a Celebrity

01:31:06.320 I don't know if you saw him

01:31:08.540 did you see him

01:31:09.060 in the shorts?

01:31:10.160 No

01:31:10.300 I mean this is very

01:31:12.200 flivorous

01:31:12.620 but he was packing

01:31:13.220 heat down there

01:31:13.980 he really was

01:31:15.080 definitely

01:31:15.960 I mean

01:31:16.620 have you not seen this?

01:31:17.700 No

01:31:17.880 what do you mean

01:31:18.620 by that remark?

01:31:19.920 Stacked

01:31:20.280 downstairs

01:31:20.880 oh I thought you meant

01:31:22.260 he was armed

01:31:22.820 no no no

01:31:23.680 imagine if he'd gone

01:31:25.700 in the jungle

01:31:26.240 with a shiv

01:31:26.940 and he's just like

01:31:27.940 right well

01:31:28.340 well Bellew's quite

01:31:29.300 daft

01:31:29.700 and sat on top

01:31:30.280 you know

01:31:30.560 I need to handle

01:31:31.580 myself

01:31:31.980 yeah I'm basically

01:31:32.560 saying he's got a big

01:31:33.220 cock which is probably

01:31:34.000 the most lowbrow

01:31:35.920 thing I could have

01:31:37.080 said

01:31:38.160 he also dressed to the

01:31:39.120 right which a lot

01:31:39.680 of people notice

01:31:40.220 but I think

01:31:41.460 what was interesting

01:31:42.740 about him on that

01:31:43.820 was that

01:31:44.400 I don't actually think

01:31:45.760 he mobilised people

01:31:46.920 to vote for him

01:31:47.620 very well

01:31:48.180 but all he did

01:31:50.000 was a sort of

01:31:50.540 politician's job

01:31:51.660 on that

01:31:52.160 I think he has

01:31:53.280 like

01:31:53.660 he has a strong

01:31:54.700 appeal because

01:31:55.320 he communicates

01:31:56.120 in this direct

01:31:57.060 way

01:31:57.540 but I don't know

01:31:59.620 if he's gonna

01:32:00.100 the problem with him

01:32:01.160 going to the Tories

01:32:01.980 right

01:32:02.280 is they're already

01:32:03.080 in a battle

01:32:03.520 in the blue wall

01:32:04.300 now with Lib Dems

01:32:05.180 if he goes to the Tories

01:32:06.540 then a lot of people

01:32:07.300 just go well I'll vote

01:32:08.160 Lib Dem because

01:32:08.760 that guy is distasteful

01:32:09.960 to me

01:32:10.280 so they're in this

01:32:11.300 weird electoral thing

01:32:12.320 that Labour

01:32:12.760 almost had in 2019

01:32:13.920 so I don't think

01:32:14.800 it's as simple

01:32:15.300 as Farage goes to the Tories

01:32:16.440 and that sorts them out

01:32:17.440 that just presents them

01:32:18.940 with another set of problems

01:32:19.620 but the difficulty

01:32:20.320 with Nigel Farage

01:32:21.440 going to the Tories

01:32:22.240 is the Tory party

01:32:24.140 is actually against him

01:32:26.100 the Tory party

01:32:28.020 is way to the left

01:32:28.920 of the Tory voting base

01:32:30.140 so

01:32:30.780 that's why I don't think

01:32:31.320 that will happen

01:32:31.780 so I don't think

01:32:33.200 that will happen

01:32:33.720 but what I think

01:32:35.280 will happen is

01:32:36.160 whether reform

01:32:37.900 is

01:32:38.080 see I don't think

01:32:39.120 most people could name

01:32:40.120 you a single policy

01:32:40.980 that reform has

01:32:41.960 it's a protest vote

01:32:43.660 it's not criticism

01:32:44.560 it's a sentiment

01:32:45.120 isn't it

01:32:45.620 like things are out of control

01:32:46.700 the country's going

01:32:47.340 if their slogan was

01:32:48.740 the country's going

01:32:49.360 to the dogs

01:32:49.900 you'd go

01:32:50.180 absolutely

01:32:51.020 bloody

01:32:51.520 absolutely

01:32:51.820 but one thing

01:32:54.040 I'm not so sure

01:32:54.920 about Andrew

01:32:55.500 is this idea

01:32:56.240 that the

01:32:56.980 the PI's

01:32:59.000 the answer

01:32:59.340 to all our problems

01:33:00.140 I don't look at

01:33:01.480 Europe and think

01:33:02.440 oh that's how

01:33:03.220 we should do it

01:33:03.900 I mean

01:33:04.220 one of the things

01:33:05.240 you know

01:33:05.540 we've talked about

01:33:06.680 this I think

01:33:07.020 with David Starkey

01:33:07.720 when we were talking

01:33:08.800 about proportional representation

01:33:09.920 is the

01:33:10.940 the first-past-the-post

01:33:12.300 system we have here

01:33:13.060 that produces

01:33:13.620 two major parties

01:33:14.680 is very good

01:33:16.240 at

01:33:17.040 defanging

01:33:18.280 the extremes

01:33:19.160 of each party

01:33:19.980 it prevents

01:33:20.980 the emergence

01:33:21.580 of extremist parties

01:33:22.760 I think

01:33:24.060 if you went to PR

01:33:25.140 now

01:33:25.480 you're going to get

01:33:26.480 some pretty extreme

01:33:27.880 things on both sides

01:33:28.980 very very quickly

01:33:29.940 I suppose I should clarify

01:33:30.560 I don't think PR

01:33:31.560 is the solution

01:33:32.560 to all our problems

01:33:33.480 I don't think that

01:33:34.440 but I am a democrat

01:33:35.820 and I do believe

01:33:36.640 in democracy

01:33:37.120 and I do like

01:33:37.760 I think it was

01:33:38.840 completely outrageous

01:33:40.500 that when UKIP

01:33:41.180 won that massive

01:33:41.880 share of the vote

01:33:42.560 and they ended up

01:33:43.340 with what

01:33:43.660 one seat

01:33:44.560 or something

01:33:44.960 which they already had

01:33:46.080 which is something

01:33:46.680 really ridiculous

01:33:47.540 it's like

01:33:47.880 that's just not democratic

01:33:49.200 so I think

01:33:50.160 on a point of principle

01:33:51.120 we should have PR

01:33:52.080 whether

01:33:52.760 even if it fucks

01:33:54.420 everything up eventually

01:33:55.180 I still think

01:33:55.760 we should have PR

01:33:56.320 it's like with Brexit

01:33:57.040 you're still on the left

01:34:00.320 mate

01:34:00.620 principle above reality

01:34:02.880 yeah

01:34:03.180 a lot of people

01:34:04.620 say well Brexit

01:34:05.220 would cause

01:34:05.960 economic ruination

01:34:06.860 okay fine

01:34:07.640 but we should still do it

01:34:08.920 because the principle

01:34:09.940 is right

01:34:10.380 you should be able

01:34:10.820 to vote out

01:34:11.460 the people in charge

01:34:12.220 and we can't do it

01:34:12.900 when we're with the EU

01:34:13.820 speaking of the EU

01:34:15.140 I heard an interesting

01:34:15.920 theory

01:34:16.500 we've had a lot

01:34:17.480 of European countries

01:34:18.420 partly because of PR

01:34:19.560 moved to the right

01:34:20.420 quite significantly

01:34:21.180 in some cases

01:34:22.020 is I think it was

01:34:23.280 in the New States

01:34:23.920 there was an article

01:34:24.480 saying in 10 years time

01:34:25.580 you could find

01:34:26.340 that a lot

01:34:27.320 as the EU moves in line

01:34:28.820 with those sort of

01:34:29.520 political movements

01:34:30.360 a lot of Remainers go

01:34:31.840 maybe we

01:34:32.580 you know

01:34:33.060 not necessarily

01:34:33.780 oh we don't want to be in it

01:34:34.880 but well perhaps

01:34:35.640 it's not the kind of

01:34:37.060 band of kindly wizards

01:34:38.880 that we once thought

01:34:39.720 it was

01:34:40.060 and then loads of

01:34:40.840 Brexiteers going

01:34:41.540 oh the temperature

01:34:42.280 looks nice in there

01:34:43.160 it could be time to rejoin

01:34:44.540 because actually

01:34:45.220 ultimately

01:34:46.140 we've got the European

01:34:47.080 elections coming up

01:34:48.220 is that

01:34:49.340 if there's far right

01:34:50.400 or significantly

01:34:51.980 right wing

01:34:52.460 administrations

01:34:54.060 in a lot of these

01:34:54.500 countries

01:34:54.760 policy would eventually

01:34:55.860 have to reflect that

01:34:56.640 that's good though

01:34:57.300 isn't it

01:34:57.560 that's what I mean

01:34:58.020 that's what's good

01:34:58.540 about PR

01:34:58.880 is that if

01:34:59.400 if the risk is

01:35:00.840 that a far right party

01:35:02.020 can come to power

01:35:02.740 or at least have a major clout

01:35:04.000 because the centrist parties

01:35:05.680 just aren't addressing

01:35:06.440 those issues

01:35:06.940 then that's a good argument

01:35:08.020 for that isn't it

01:35:08.500 because that means

01:35:09.360 I'm just saying

01:35:10.420 that we could see

01:35:11.300 an interesting flip

01:35:12.180 on Remainer

01:35:13.100 and rejoin sentiment

01:35:14.620 it's not that they don't

01:35:15.940 they don't like

01:35:16.860 not they don't like

01:35:18.040 the idea of the European project

01:35:19.280 but the temperature

01:35:20.100 of that swimming pool

01:35:21.480 is like

01:35:21.840 oh that's a bit

01:35:22.520 you know

01:35:22.780 that's not my

01:35:23.520 that's not my scene as much

01:35:24.820 and also I think

01:35:25.640 you know

01:35:25.800 when it comes to rejoining the EU

01:35:27.000 there was a graph

01:35:27.620 that I saw today

01:35:28.280 that shows

01:35:29.300 like basically

01:35:30.280 the surge in belief

01:35:32.280 that we were wrong

01:35:32.840 to leave the EU

01:35:33.580 literally goes in line

01:35:34.600 with the cost of living crisis

01:35:35.640 of course

01:35:36.020 now I'm not going to say

01:35:37.120 that once the economy improves

01:35:39.180 everyone will be

01:35:39.720 pro-Brexit

01:35:40.600 but I do think

01:35:41.640 that the sort of

01:35:42.840 dissatisfaction with it

01:35:43.800 has been exacerbated

01:35:44.760 by the fact

01:35:45.200 that everyone feels

01:35:45.800 fucking skimmed

01:35:46.500 I don't think

01:35:46.920 the rejoin thing

01:35:47.540 is ever going to happen

01:35:48.040 but the thing is

01:35:48.520 there are many

01:35:49.040 many countries in Europe

01:35:50.120 that are worse off

01:35:50.900 and as you know

01:35:51.460 both of us voted Remain

01:35:53.000 but there was a

01:35:54.120 you know

01:35:54.400 there's this Larry something

01:35:55.740 I can never remember his name

01:35:56.800 Elliot from The Guardian

01:35:57.480 Larry Elliot

01:35:57.840 the lone straight white man

01:35:59.220 who still writes

01:35:59.720 for The Guardian

01:36:00.220 he wrote

01:36:01.020 what's going on

01:36:01.460 with The Guardian

01:36:01.900 are they based now

01:36:03.600 is that what's happening

01:36:04.220 they just have one

01:36:05.040 they keep it around

01:36:05.760 they have one for diversity

01:36:07.600 but I gave him a good review

01:36:09.540 yeah

01:36:10.040 it's weird

01:36:10.760 he wrote an article

01:36:12.040 no this isn't the one

01:36:13.620 he wrote an article

01:36:14.600 basically saying

01:36:15.600 the rejoin thing

01:36:17.220 is never going to happen

01:36:18.000 because people

01:36:18.740 actually do realise

01:36:19.920 that yeah

01:36:20.880 things are not great

01:36:21.820 in the UK

01:36:22.220 they're much worse

01:36:23.120 in many European countries

01:36:24.420 yeah we've recovered

01:36:25.080 better than Germany

01:36:25.940 better than France

01:36:26.740 you know

01:36:27.200 it's not

01:36:27.560 the argument

01:36:28.840 is stuck up

01:36:29.340 we're talking

01:36:29.880 look I don't know

01:36:30.920 about a great deal

01:36:32.300 about you know

01:36:33.220 European politics

01:36:34.240 but there are some

01:36:36.020 let's just say

01:36:36.840 very right wing parties

01:36:38.480 that are doing

01:36:39.080 very well

01:36:39.920 in a lot of European countries

01:36:41.680 yeah

01:36:42.260 so this idea

01:36:43.380 that you know

01:36:44.100 you're going to move to

01:36:45.580 we're going to go back

01:36:46.460 into the EU

01:36:46.940 and everybody in the EU

01:36:48.040 is having this wonderful time

01:36:49.460 there's a lot of

01:36:51.060 very angry

01:36:51.700 very frustrated people

01:36:53.380 who have got

01:36:54.180 a lot of legitimate

01:36:55.360 criticisms

01:36:55.960 with the EU

01:36:56.620 if you look at

01:36:57.440 basically the vast majority

01:36:58.840 of southern European countries

01:37:00.340 they want out of the EU

01:37:02.240 a lot of them

01:37:03.020 I just hope Holland

01:37:04.060 doesn't ban weed

01:37:04.880 on that happy note

01:37:07.180 should we do a couple

01:37:08.100 of frivolous stories

01:37:09.040 before we head on over

01:37:10.020 to our paywall section

01:37:11.860 where we talk about

01:37:12.620 our predictions

01:37:13.540 for the future

01:37:14.100 and all that

01:37:14.540 we had

01:37:15.400 the Somerset Gimp

01:37:17.200 we had

01:37:18.200 the French priests

01:37:19.220 get amber

01:37:19.860 a lot of announcing

01:37:20.740 we got it

01:37:21.320 I mean I've never thought

01:37:22.480 I'd say it's good

01:37:22.920 but could we do

01:37:23.400 the French priest nonce

01:37:24.800 instead

01:37:25.180 yeah let's do that

01:37:26.420 I want to know

01:37:27.180 about the Somerset Gimp

01:37:28.120 we will do

01:37:29.080 Jeff is worried

01:37:31.080 for his career

01:37:31.720 you can't be anti-gimp

01:37:34.140 in the comedy industry

01:37:35.200 I genuinely think

01:37:35.420 it's a very dark news story

01:37:36.940 it sounds funny

01:37:37.980 yeah

01:37:38.500 so this is a story

01:37:39.580 about French Catholic priests

01:37:40.940 will be forced to wear

01:37:41.940 scannable QR code

01:37:43.360 so the public can identify

01:37:45.080 if they're a sex offender

01:37:46.420 does that imply

01:37:47.300 that the majority are

01:37:48.700 well that's sort of

01:37:49.880 where the funny angle

01:37:51.020 in this comes in

01:37:51.640 because actually

01:37:52.180 this is a story about

01:37:53.160 priests abusing children

01:37:55.340 so it's not that frivolous

01:37:56.640 however if you think

01:37:58.080 about the fact

01:37:58.660 that this indicates

01:37:59.480 that most of them

01:38:00.040 probably are nonces

01:38:00.960 then it becomes really funny

01:38:02.280 I think it's a bit like

01:38:03.360 you know when you've got

01:38:04.600 a cat that kills

01:38:05.860 loads of sparrows

01:38:06.620 you have to put a bell

01:38:07.300 on it

01:38:07.560 a stat but for nonces

01:38:09.580 my favourite

01:38:10.580 about all of this

01:38:11.580 is red I get

01:38:12.540 green I get

01:38:13.760 that's all clear

01:38:14.480 you're good to go

01:38:15.360 what about orange

01:38:16.060 orange

01:38:16.500 it's where you're sort of

01:38:17.760 not sure

01:38:18.320 but you're willing

01:38:18.980 to take the risk

01:38:19.620 is it a colour code

01:38:20.900 yeah

01:38:21.180 Catholic priests

01:38:22.260 in France

01:38:22.720 will be made to wear

01:38:23.420 traffic light

01:38:24.080 coded identification tags

01:38:25.620 to allow the public

01:38:26.360 to check whether

01:38:27.000 they may have faced

01:38:27.880 sexual abuse charges

01:38:28.940 cards will feature

01:38:30.180 a QR code

01:38:31.020 scannable by mobile phone

01:38:32.460 that will flag a red

01:38:33.640 orange or green light

01:38:35.260 depending on whether

01:38:36.060 its holder

01:38:36.540 had been stripped

01:38:37.520 of clerical status

01:38:38.640 the scheme

01:38:39.540 announced by the

01:38:40.340 Bishop's Conference

01:38:41.000 of France on Wednesday

01:38:41.880 will allow easier

01:38:43.140 identification of priests

01:38:44.580 able to lead mass

01:38:45.860 and hear confessions

01:38:46.940 this cannot be real

01:38:48.600 isn't this also

01:38:49.440 a decorum issue

01:38:50.460 you can't just go

01:38:51.060 around scanning

01:38:51.780 priests

01:38:52.460 unless you really

01:38:54.140 have to

01:38:54.580 but look at their

01:38:55.880 history

01:38:57.140 how would this

01:38:59.060 work in practice

01:38:59.840 you see a priest

01:39:00.720 you go up to it

01:39:01.320 with your phone

01:39:01.760 do they just

01:39:02.780 acquiesce to this

01:39:03.800 is there any kind

01:39:04.640 of discourse

01:39:05.480 that takes place

01:39:06.240 could I scan

01:39:07.300 new father

01:39:07.880 does the father

01:39:09.780 get to consent

01:39:11.180 I mean there's

01:39:11.800 all sorts of

01:39:12.340 it's a minefield

01:39:13.180 I just

01:39:13.580 honestly

01:39:14.160 at some point

01:39:15.140 I thought you

01:39:15.820 were going to say

01:39:16.540 like oh it was

01:39:17.820 mentioned at a

01:39:18.580 town meeting

01:39:19.160 you know some

01:39:19.640 of these stories

01:39:20.120 that have got

01:39:20.440 a sort of like

01:39:21.380 fairly baseless

01:39:22.060 this is getting

01:39:22.760 decided at the

01:39:23.800 highest level

01:39:24.300 this is like

01:39:25.380 the Premier League

01:39:26.040 of noncing

01:39:26.500 the Vatican

01:39:27.680 didn't sign up

01:39:28.460 on this

01:39:28.780 did they

01:39:29.120 there's no way

01:39:30.280 the Vatican

01:39:30.640 they don't want

01:39:31.400 scanning for

01:39:31.900 noncing

01:39:32.200 exactly

01:39:32.940 how are they

01:39:33.560 going to

01:39:33.720 replace

01:39:34.020 their entire

01:39:34.460 workforce

01:39:34.860 so who put

01:39:35.340 this in

01:39:35.640 was this

01:39:35.880 the government

01:39:36.280 was this

01:39:36.620 Macron

01:39:37.080 that was the

01:39:38.200 French church

01:39:38.960 no

01:39:40.420 so here we go

01:39:41.960 members of the

01:39:42.740 public will see

01:39:43.500 either a red light

01:39:44.480 an amber light

01:39:45.200 or a green light

01:39:46.020 upon scanning

01:39:46.700 one of the new

01:39:47.380 cards

01:39:47.760 red lights

01:39:48.560 indicate that a

01:39:49.360 priest has been

01:39:50.060 stripped of their

01:39:50.780 status and cannot

01:39:51.560 perform various

01:39:52.320 clerical duties

01:39:53.220 the database will

01:39:54.460 be updated

01:39:55.440 a standard once a

01:39:57.080 year or immediately

01:39:57.760 in cases of

01:39:58.500 serious misconduct

01:39:59.380 orange lights

01:40:00.620 will indicate that

01:40:01.420 a priest has

01:40:01.940 limited powers

01:40:02.760 due to experience

01:40:03.800 or sanctions

01:40:04.840 so that's a

01:40:05.260 semi-nance

01:40:05.920 so that's someone

01:40:07.820 who's done a bit

01:40:08.380 of noncing

01:40:08.700 so someone's

01:40:10.100 just dabbled

01:40:10.620 in noncing

01:40:11.160 well we don't

01:40:12.400 know

01:40:13.180 it's a

01:40:13.680 Schrödinger's

01:40:14.280 nonce

01:40:14.700 you know

01:40:15.460 when I watched

01:40:16.020 Christmas specials

01:40:16.860 growing up

01:40:17.300 they didn't talk

01:40:20.360 about noncy

01:40:21.100 priests

01:40:21.460 I'll tell you

01:40:21.880 that much

01:40:22.180 when are we

01:40:22.560 doing the

01:40:22.880 song and

01:40:23.160 dance routine

01:40:23.820 you know

01:40:26.580 I just think

01:40:27.320 what do you do

01:40:28.080 with those orange

01:40:28.740 ones

01:40:29.140 no exactly

01:40:29.880 you can't

01:40:30.340 I don't think

01:40:31.320 you should have

01:40:31.620 any kind of

01:40:32.200 system where

01:40:32.600 you have to

01:40:33.020 wear something

01:40:33.920 to show that

01:40:34.500 you're not

01:40:34.880 something terrible

01:40:35.620 it's like

01:40:36.280 do you remember

01:40:36.520 when they tried

01:40:37.080 to introduce

01:40:37.440 the safety pin

01:40:38.240 that you'd put

01:40:38.940 a safety pin

01:40:39.580 on if you

01:40:39.960 weren't a racist

01:40:40.660 and there was

01:40:41.560 a campaign

01:40:42.100 to do this

01:40:42.800 when?

01:40:43.400 that happened

01:40:43.920 I actually know

01:40:45.920 the woman who

01:40:46.460 started it

01:40:47.260 I used to be

01:40:47.720 friends with her

01:40:48.160 when did this

01:40:48.880 happen?

01:40:49.260 it was a while

01:40:49.860 ago

01:40:50.180 I noticed you

01:40:51.860 weren't wearing

01:40:52.260 a pin mate

01:40:52.720 where's your pin

01:40:54.300 mate?

01:40:55.040 why do you hate

01:40:55.960 them?

01:40:56.160 silence is violence

01:40:57.060 complicity

01:40:58.160 the default

01:40:59.360 expectation of a

01:41:00.360 priest should be

01:41:01.160 that he won't

01:41:01.880 commit sexual

01:41:02.920 he or she

01:41:06.160 sorry

01:41:07.080 and also

01:41:07.640 let's look at

01:41:08.220 the facts

01:41:08.620 because we've

01:41:09.020 got to be

01:41:09.300 objective

01:41:09.640 I don't think

01:41:10.140 if you look

01:41:10.540 at the history

01:41:11.020 and the facts

01:41:11.540 that is the

01:41:12.120 basic assumption

01:41:12.760 we should make

01:41:13.320 about priests

01:41:13.620 surely if a

01:41:14.480 priest has a

01:41:15.060 red thing

01:41:15.820 they wouldn't

01:41:16.660 be a priest

01:41:17.100 anymore anyway

01:41:17.680 they would have

01:41:18.980 been ditched

01:41:19.440 it says that

01:41:19.900 so why would

01:41:20.740 you need to

01:41:21.580 scan them?

01:41:22.640 that's a good

01:41:22.820 point

01:41:23.060 do you know

01:41:23.400 the things

01:41:23.740 when you do

01:41:24.400 something like

01:41:24.800 this

01:41:24.980 you sort of

01:41:25.900 war game

01:41:26.440 what could

01:41:26.900 you get in

01:41:27.260 trouble for

01:41:27.720 there's so many

01:41:28.380 subjects where

01:41:28.900 he could have

01:41:29.240 I reckon

01:41:29.640 it'll be

01:41:29.880 this

01:41:30.180 I reckon

01:41:30.940 it'll be

01:41:31.440 comedians

01:41:33.020 not just joke

01:41:34.060 about but

01:41:34.700 endorse nonsense

01:41:35.880 they'll get a

01:41:36.840 little bit of

01:41:37.260 what we said

01:41:37.680 what do you mean

01:41:37.820 we're anti-nons

01:41:39.060 yeah

01:41:39.360 well I mean

01:41:40.520 well you're the

01:41:41.420 woke so you have

01:41:41.900 to go the other

01:41:42.320 side

01:41:42.440 oh Jeff

01:41:43.840 you're woke

01:41:44.340 you've got to

01:41:44.700 be prone

01:41:45.100 they're called

01:41:45.720 maps

01:41:46.080 minor attracted

01:41:46.860 pedophiles

01:41:47.840 yeah

01:41:48.180 is that a thing

01:41:49.600 minor attracted

01:41:50.240 people

01:41:50.660 and there are

01:41:51.300 some activists

01:41:51.740 who want that

01:41:52.200 to be part

01:41:52.520 of LGBTQIA

01:41:53.420 plus

01:41:53.680 at this point

01:41:54.840 it's got to

01:41:55.420 be

01:41:55.440 it's a sexual

01:41:55.860 orientation

01:41:56.300 according to them

01:41:57.020 they can't help

01:41:57.600 it

01:41:57.680 this is a prank

01:41:58.480 you cannot tell

01:42:00.260 me that they're

01:42:00.720 he's seeing his

01:42:01.540 mainstream bookings

01:42:02.400 minor attracted

01:42:03.540 persons

01:42:03.940 map

01:42:04.200 yeah

01:42:04.580 Jeff

01:42:05.100 who's saying

01:42:05.740 this though

01:42:06.140 Jeff relax

01:42:06.500 all these TV shows

01:42:07.400 that you do

01:42:07.780 they're dying anyway

01:42:08.600 welcome

01:42:09.740 I mean the water's

01:42:11.080 lovely

01:42:11.480 what

01:42:11.920 who's saying

01:42:13.220 that that's

01:42:13.780 Jeff your podcast

01:42:14.500 is crushing it

01:42:15.360 look forget about

01:42:16.440 mainstream

01:42:16.820 who is saying

01:42:17.940 that minor attracted

01:42:19.340 persons should be

01:42:20.340 the word instead

01:42:21.160 of nonce

01:42:21.840 the map

01:42:22.480 activists

01:42:23.180 map activists

01:42:23.920 and there are

01:42:24.860 some of them

01:42:25.320 yeah

01:42:25.500 but there always

01:42:26.560 have been

01:42:26.960 I feel like a

01:42:28.200 1976

01:42:28.840 Harriet Harman

01:42:31.620 Labour MP

01:42:32.280 used to be a

01:42:32.960 member of

01:42:33.320 something called

01:42:33.700 the paedophile

01:42:34.160 information exchange

01:42:34.960 well she wasn't

01:42:35.260 a member

01:42:35.520 I think she

01:42:36.000 endorsed or

01:42:37.020 supported or

01:42:37.600 helped

01:42:37.900 something

01:42:38.780 I take that

01:42:40.840 back

01:42:41.040 she didn't

01:42:41.340 used to be

01:42:41.640 a member

01:42:41.880 what was she

01:42:42.380 Andrew

01:42:42.540 I think she

01:42:43.160 appeared at

01:42:44.000 something that

01:42:44.440 they did

01:42:44.820 or at least

01:42:45.420 wrote in

01:42:46.120 support

01:42:46.420 or said

01:42:46.720 something in

01:42:47.080 support

01:42:47.340 she was

01:42:47.860 paedophile

01:42:48.300 information

01:42:48.860 exchange

01:42:49.240 adjacent

01:42:49.700 yeah

01:42:49.960 now we're

01:42:52.500 just playing

01:42:53.000 like cancel

01:42:53.780 minesweeper

01:42:54.500 you know

01:43:00.040 what

01:43:00.280 Jeff's

01:43:00.880 uncomfortable

01:43:01.420 face is the

01:43:02.100 best thing

01:43:02.460 about this

01:43:02.900 this has been

01:43:03.520 the highlight

01:43:03.980 I don't mind

01:43:04.720 canceling stuff

01:43:05.320 the litigious

01:43:06.520 stuff

01:43:06.940 that's the

01:43:07.460 you haven't

01:43:07.900 said anything

01:43:08.380 you haven't

01:43:08.840 said it's us

01:43:09.640 that are going

01:43:10.020 down

01:43:10.220 silence is

01:43:10.580 violence

01:43:10.860 yeah

01:43:11.340 my favourite

01:43:12.400 thing during

01:43:12.960 that whole

01:43:13.280 episode was

01:43:13.960 there was a

01:43:15.140 girl in a

01:43:15.700 t-shirt

01:43:16.020 that said

01:43:16.320 silence is

01:43:16.940 consent

01:43:17.380 yeah

01:43:17.860 and I was

01:43:18.900 like have

01:43:19.200 you applied

01:43:19.680 this to

01:43:20.080 other contexts

01:43:20.980 yeah

01:43:21.840 that wouldn't

01:43:22.320 work with it

01:43:22.860 because it

01:43:24.000 was it was

01:43:24.480 about racism

01:43:25.420 she was

01:43:25.820 saying if

01:43:26.340 you're silent

01:43:27.500 you're consenting

01:43:28.440 complicity

01:43:28.920 yeah but it

01:43:30.200 said consent

01:43:30.780 and you're

01:43:31.080 going if you

01:43:31.800 map this

01:43:32.240 onto other

01:43:32.740 things

01:43:33.000 yeah

01:43:33.860 that's the

01:43:34.880 problem with

01:43:35.220 slogans they

01:43:35.820 sound great

01:43:36.420 when you say

01:43:36.960 them you're

01:43:37.240 like yes and

01:43:38.060 then you think

01:43:38.620 you look

01:43:39.040 you do them

01:43:39.500 down a bit

01:43:40.060 there is a

01:43:40.880 tendency on

01:43:41.740 the left that

01:43:42.220 they do like

01:43:43.240 the progressive

01:43:43.980 left I should

01:43:44.520 say where they

01:43:45.260 like an

01:43:46.360 incantation

01:43:47.180 oh they love

01:43:47.900 it

01:43:48.020 no one's safe

01:43:48.720 till everyone's

01:43:49.460 safe

01:43:49.640 that's not

01:43:51.400 like it's just

01:43:52.420 my logical

01:43:53.000 brain

01:43:53.380 kicks in

01:43:54.060 you go

01:43:54.300 well that's

01:43:54.620 not exactly

01:43:55.700 true

01:43:56.320 you know

01:43:56.640 with

01:43:56.880 something's

01:43:57.660 liberation

01:43:58.120 is everyone's

01:43:58.880 if you go

01:43:59.220 maybe it

01:44:01.240 just feels

01:44:01.760 good to say

01:44:02.440 these little

01:44:03.000 sing song

01:44:03.600 things

01:44:04.140 often these

01:44:05.140 slogans

01:44:05.700 though

01:44:05.920 what's it

01:44:06.560 Robert J

01:44:07.200 Lifton

01:44:07.420 called

01:44:07.600 the thought

01:44:08.040 terminating

01:44:08.580 cliches

01:44:09.180 because you

01:44:10.000 say them

01:44:10.440 in substitute

01:44:11.180 of an

01:44:11.520 argument

01:44:11.880 because the

01:44:13.240 arguments don't

01:44:13.860 stand up

01:44:14.320 so instead

01:44:14.660 just have a

01:44:15.080 slogan

01:44:15.380 and you

01:44:16.300 have to

01:44:16.620 agree with

01:44:17.320 the slogan

01:44:17.680 we were

01:44:18.740 at a

01:44:19.040 pro-Palestine

01:44:19.700 protest

01:44:20.280 by accident

01:44:21.120 we were just

01:44:21.480 walking past

01:44:22.060 and it was

01:44:22.600 interesting to

01:44:23.020 me while

01:44:23.880 Hamas holds

01:44:25.820 hundreds of

01:44:26.480 Jewish Israeli

01:44:27.420 hostages

01:44:28.000 they were

01:44:28.740 chanting

01:44:29.140 no justice

01:44:29.920 no peace

01:44:30.660 yeah

01:44:31.240 and I

01:44:31.680 thought

01:44:31.980 have you

01:44:32.620 thought

01:44:33.000 I mean

01:44:33.600 they haven't

01:44:34.140 thought any

01:44:34.540 of it

01:44:34.760 but then you

01:44:35.900 said there

01:44:36.180 were queers for

01:44:36.700 Palestine

01:44:37.060 there

01:44:37.380 there were

01:44:37.940 there were

01:44:38.000 there were

01:44:38.900 there were

01:44:39.200 actually

01:44:39.420 queers

01:44:39.740 for

01:44:39.880 Palestine

01:44:40.220 I went

01:44:40.920 to another

01:44:41.340 protest

01:44:41.800 a pro-Palestine

01:44:42.540 one which

01:44:42.920 was a smaller

01:44:43.660 one which

01:44:44.100 was you know

01:44:44.760 there's a video

01:44:46.180 on our channel

01:44:46.820 that's I think

01:44:48.060 it's approaching

01:44:48.520 like half a million

01:44:49.100 views now

01:44:49.600 where it was a

01:44:50.740 kind of interesting

01:44:51.500 range of

01:44:52.840 opinions and

01:44:54.140 it wasn't like

01:44:55.280 that silly but

01:44:55.980 the one we saw

01:44:56.680 was like completely

01:44:57.700 incoherent

01:44:58.420 and the arguments

01:44:59.420 completely incoherent

01:45:00.220 anyway we're getting

01:45:00.780 serious again

01:45:01.460 shall we do

01:45:02.400 another frivolous

01:45:03.120 story

01:45:03.520 well I think

01:45:04.380 we should do

01:45:04.660 the gimp thing

01:45:05.380 just because

01:45:05.960 I don't know

01:45:06.460 about this

01:45:06.860 I didn't know

01:45:09.660 that Somerset

01:45:10.200 had gimps

01:45:11.660 well it's very

01:45:12.800 progressive

01:45:13.280 you talk about

01:45:14.300 the BBC

01:45:14.720 with a misleading

01:45:15.800 headline

01:45:16.300 I don't think

01:45:17.080 it's wriggling

01:45:17.820 is the problem

01:45:18.620 I think it's

01:45:19.280 dry humping

01:45:20.000 stuff

01:45:20.440 can you tell

01:45:22.300 me what

01:45:22.540 happened

01:45:22.960 Jeff read

01:45:24.340 the headline

01:45:24.800 if you stick

01:45:25.380 the headline

01:45:25.780 back up

01:45:26.240 Somerset Gardner

01:45:27.840 banned from

01:45:28.680 wriggling in

01:45:29.400 gimp suits

01:45:30.240 excellent

01:45:30.760 that's more of

01:45:31.280 a pirate accent

01:45:32.020 yeah there is

01:45:32.440 more pirate

01:45:32.940 so why do

01:45:34.280 you think

01:45:34.480 this is a

01:45:34.840 very dark

01:45:35.340 story

01:45:35.580 well because

01:45:36.240 this guy

01:45:37.040 you know

01:45:37.440 first it was

01:45:38.020 like there

01:45:38.300 were sightings

01:45:38.820 of a gimp

01:45:39.160 and that was

01:45:39.640 sort of funny

01:45:40.240 yeah the word

01:45:41.240 gimp is funny

01:45:41.860 but it sort of

01:45:42.500 turned out that

01:45:43.020 by and large

01:45:43.700 he was just

01:45:44.080 like making

01:45:44.740 women feel

01:45:45.300 uncomfortable

01:45:45.740 what do you

01:45:46.200 think gimps

01:45:46.660 do

01:45:46.900 you've been

01:45:48.320 around

01:45:48.600 left wing

01:45:49.060 gimp in my

01:45:51.000 mind is a

01:45:51.520 consensual type

01:45:52.600 businessman

01:45:53.200 saying can I

01:45:54.000 be your gimp

01:45:54.460 look at that

01:45:54.900 tell me that

01:45:55.820 picture is not

01:45:56.400 funny

01:45:57.000 was he actually

01:45:58.980 assaulting people

01:45:59.780 no he was

01:46:00.260 just making

01:46:00.620 them uncomfortable

01:46:00.860 yeah but

01:46:01.180 there was a lot

01:46:02.400 of weird breed

01:46:02.980 look I'll put it

01:46:03.680 this way if my

01:46:04.400 wife come home and

01:46:05.080 said that that

01:46:05.880 guy had followed

01:46:06.380 her I'd fucking

01:46:07.040 batter him

01:46:07.700 that's against the

01:46:09.520 lot

01:46:09.640 I don't care

01:46:10.880 what you're doing

01:46:11.520 there is quite

01:46:12.140 literally punching

01:46:13.060 down on

01:46:13.900 I don't care

01:46:14.460 I will happily

01:46:15.480 advocate violence

01:46:16.740 for blokes that

01:46:17.940 follow women in

01:46:18.740 gimp outfits

01:46:19.300 is it legal to

01:46:20.140 walk around in a

01:46:21.140 gimp suit

01:46:21.680 why not

01:46:22.300 well that's what

01:46:23.120 I'm asking

01:46:23.480 why don't we read

01:46:24.160 the fucking article

01:46:24.840 a gardener who

01:46:27.480 terrified women

01:46:28.320 in Somerset

01:46:29.280 in a Somerset

01:46:30.020 village rather

01:46:30.560 has been banned

01:46:31.380 from writhing on

01:46:32.260 the floor in an

01:46:33.220 old black bodysuit

01:46:34.020 in public so I'm

01:46:34.640 guessing it isn't

01:46:35.340 illegal but he's

01:46:36.720 been banned

01:46:37.660 okay yeah so

01:46:38.620 immediately wriggling

01:46:39.640 to writhing

01:46:40.700 writhing

01:46:41.420 writhing should

01:46:42.420 have been in

01:46:42.920 escalation

01:46:43.440 wriggling I think

01:46:45.040 is fine writhing

01:46:45.940 is a step

01:46:46.320 what is this legend's

01:46:47.400 name Joshua Hunt

01:46:48.340 32 was found

01:46:49.680 guilty last week of

01:46:50.760 causing intentional

01:46:51.660 harassment alarm or

01:46:52.940 distress to his

01:46:53.620 victims he has now

01:46:54.860 been handed a

01:46:55.640 sexual harm risk

01:46:56.600 order which

01:46:57.460 prevents him from

01:46:58.200 wearing any type

01:46:59.120 of mask unless for

01:47:00.740 medical reasons the

01:47:02.140 order will be in

01:47:02.900 place for five years

01:47:03.680 so he's not allowed

01:47:04.220 to wear any kind of

01:47:05.020 mask yeah I mean

01:47:06.280 that does seem a

01:47:06.940 bit extreme it's

01:47:06.980 gonna make carnivals

01:47:07.740 so so boring it

01:47:08.860 doesn't sound to me

01:47:09.900 like he'd done

01:47:11.060 anything illegal there

01:47:12.360 I think what's weird

01:47:13.420 there is because

01:47:13.800 they obviously don't

01:47:14.360 understand the mask

01:47:15.100 thing they've just

01:47:15.840 got just any any

01:47:17.300 kind of mask here

01:47:18.420 so they don't

01:47:19.400 understand it I

01:47:21.600 guess I mean

01:47:22.100 first of all you

01:47:22.940 just roll it back

01:47:23.440 down the mask I

01:47:25.020 mean I that

01:47:25.980 doesn't really fit

01:47:26.740 with what I

01:47:27.440 that's more

01:47:27.800 Halloweeny I would

01:47:28.720 say yeah it's a

01:47:29.940 little bit beast of

01:47:30.900 Jersey isn't it

01:47:31.880 it's that sort of

01:47:32.680 like scary fetishy

01:47:34.720 thing I mean but

01:47:35.860 is that illegal I

01:47:37.000 mean if you're going

01:47:37.680 to criminalize that

01:47:38.200 kind of thing do

01:47:38.660 you remember when

01:47:38.940 there was that

01:47:39.240 space of people who

01:47:40.020 dressed up as

01:47:40.800 clowns and chased

01:47:41.700 people with

01:47:42.100 chainsaws yeah that

01:47:43.560 that that to me

01:47:44.400 should is comparable

01:47:45.280 I think there should

01:47:45.920 be something in

01:47:46.260 that but for

01:47:47.020 actual chainsaws

01:47:47.940 I think they did

01:47:48.800 just as a kind of

01:47:49.660 with the chain

01:47:50.220 removed or something

01:47:50.880 but it was like

01:47:51.340 it was like

01:47:52.000 you didn't know

01:47:52.400 that yeah exactly

01:47:53.600 the restrictions on

01:47:54.440 this guy get better

01:47:55.220 among the restrictions

01:47:56.160 imposed Hunt is now

01:47:57.640 banned from being in

01:47:58.920 possession of any type

01:47:59.860 of mask or face

01:48:00.720 covering in a public

01:48:01.500 place so no

01:48:02.300 Palestine protest for

01:48:03.440 him yeah wearing or

01:48:04.860 being in possession of

01:48:06.020 black all-in-one

01:48:07.160 garments in a public

01:48:08.340 place so you can't

01:48:09.300 wear a burqa either

01:48:10.160 crawling wriggling or

01:48:12.120 writhing on the floor

01:48:13.400 in a public place whilst

01:48:15.140 wearing a full body

01:48:16.160 covering clothing that

01:48:17.660 appears like a full body

01:48:18.820 covering and or mask

01:48:20.180 full face and or

01:48:21.500 full face I think

01:48:22.400 this sounds quite

01:48:23.100 authoritarian to me

01:48:24.080 because now you're

01:48:24.540 policing his dress

01:48:25.220 sense but I you

01:48:26.440 know there is that

01:48:27.360 modern thing it's

01:48:28.100 like kink shaming

01:48:30.020 right yeah you should

01:48:31.480 never shame anybody's

01:48:32.440 king yeah you should

01:48:33.620 yeah you should there's

01:48:34.520 some stuff that is

01:48:35.360 utterly depraved I'm

01:48:36.440 happy to go like a

01:48:37.320 1950s conservative on

01:48:38.660 this he needs bloody

01:48:40.040 help he's wrong in the

01:48:41.400 head if that's how he

01:48:42.860 gets his kicks yeah I

01:48:44.220 think you should be on

01:48:44.640 a fucking watch this

01:48:45.440 this is the exact

01:48:46.240 opposite of what the

01:48:47.280 BBC have promoted

01:48:48.340 did you see this

01:48:48.940 episode of doctors

01:48:49.720 about furries where a

01:48:51.620 guy basically who gets

01:48:52.900 a kick out of dressing

01:48:53.920 as a bear is thrown

01:48:55.240 out of his house by

01:48:56.040 his prejudiced old

01:48:57.960 grandfather and then

01:48:59.380 he goes to a night

01:49:00.320 club and takes the

01:49:01.460 grandfather along and

01:49:02.260 then there's someone

01:49:02.820 sitting there dressed

01:49:03.660 as a cow and there's

01:49:04.940 a pig and there's also

01:49:05.840 and the grandfather

01:49:06.540 realizes he just needs

01:49:07.560 to be accepting it

01:49:08.440 wouldn't be the first

01:49:09.200 bear in night club

01:49:09.920 boom I was gonna say

01:49:12.360 with people like

01:49:16.120 furries that's a

01:49:16.700 Christmas special

01:49:17.380 yeah exactly with

01:49:19.400 people like furries

01:49:20.500 there's a kind of

01:49:21.480 sympathy that I have

01:49:22.440 for them because

01:49:22.920 there's a moment when

01:49:24.120 you're young where

01:49:24.660 you're discovering your

01:49:25.520 sexuality where you

01:49:26.480 were finding out what

01:49:27.240 it is that you like

01:49:27.960 and what you don't

01:49:28.660 like can you imagine

01:49:30.020 realizing that you

01:49:31.560 really like it when

01:49:32.920 your partner gets

01:49:33.920 gets into a cow suit

01:49:35.800 and you're in a bear

01:49:36.680 outfit yeah but it's

01:49:38.460 something you keep to

01:49:39.380 yourself isn't it

01:49:40.440 you should be ashamed

01:49:41.980 of it

01:49:42.240 yeah I go straight

01:49:43.860 to the therapist

01:49:45.220 I go right

01:49:45.900 something's gone

01:49:46.520 wrong here

01:49:47.280 why do I like this

01:49:48.780 there's a big furry

01:49:49.560 community now you

01:49:50.540 know it's it's

01:49:51.840 it's kind of a big

01:49:52.500 it's the next civil

01:49:53.140 rights issue

01:49:53.720 I'm definitely gonna

01:49:54.140 leave this with more

01:49:54.740 questions than answers

01:49:55.560 the education of

01:49:56.980 Jeff Norco is a

01:49:57.920 progress here

01:49:58.680 do you know Jeff

01:49:59.320 this has been

01:49:59.920 beautiful mate

01:50:00.700 it's just watching

01:50:01.700 a mind slowly

01:50:02.360 my man slowly have

01:50:03.380 his mind blown

01:50:04.180 I want to sit in

01:50:04.780 my little middle

01:50:05.500 England bubble

01:50:06.300 you know getting a

01:50:08.340 bit cross about

01:50:09.080 something

01:50:09.420 I'm not diet

01:50:10.080 gammon I like to

01:50:10.880 think of myself as a

01:50:11.600 diet gammon

01:50:12.140 not the full

01:50:12.720 the low sodium

01:50:13.740 gammon yeah

01:50:14.460 well too late

01:50:16.020 well on that happy

01:50:17.000 note gentlemen we're

01:50:18.200 gonna head over to

01:50:19.360 our supporters where

01:50:20.440 we're gonna talk about

01:50:21.200 our predictions for

01:50:22.220 2024 and catch up on

01:50:24.680 a bunch of other

01:50:25.160 stuff so that is

01:50:26.140 gonna be extra

01:50:26.800 special content and

01:50:27.940 we're gonna be wearing

01:50:29.020 weird hats as well

01:50:30.180 yeah we've got all sorts

01:50:31.100 of Christmas

01:50:31.500 before we go let's get

01:50:33.460 them out for the

01:50:34.020 lads

01:50:34.300 earlier what are we

01:50:35.180 wearing

01:50:35.300 get them out for

01:50:35.880 the lads

01:50:36.240 here we go

01:50:36.860 there we go

01:50:37.480 can I have the

01:50:38.440 antlers

01:50:38.980 I thought Jeff bags

01:50:40.840 you the antlers

01:50:41.260 no he's got the

01:50:42.060 yeah yeah

01:50:42.660 but that goes on

01:50:43.480 there doesn't it

01:50:44.020 oh does it

01:50:44.740 I mean this isn't

01:50:45.940 especially festive on

01:50:47.220 its own

01:50:47.560 here we go

01:50:48.560 it's just a

01:50:49.280 I'm not wearing

01:50:51.060 is this a wig or

01:50:52.080 a beard

01:50:52.480 that's a beard

01:50:54.040 you should go to

01:50:56.000 because it'll go

01:50:56.620 it'll go with your

01:50:57.260 trim baby

01:50:57.720 he's given me a

01:50:59.580 just stop oil t-shirt

01:51:00.620 which I'm not gonna

01:51:01.260 wear

01:51:01.560 I mean this is

01:51:02.880 got to be the

01:51:03.380 weirdest recorder

01:51:04.080 we've gone right

01:51:04.720 from the most

01:51:05.160 serious issues and

01:51:05.880 I've ended wearing

01:51:06.480 a fucking deer stalker

01:51:07.620 alright head on

01:51:08.880 over to locals and

01:51:10.060 check out the bonus

01:51:10.880 content there

01:51:11.840 Santa's always been

01:51:13.620 fetishy

01:51:14.440 how do you mean

01:51:15.180 well because he

01:51:16.360 comes down your

01:51:17.220 chimney at night

01:51:17.980 no I didn't mean

01:51:19.920 that in a sexual

01:51:20.660 way

01:51:20.920 yeah

01:51:21.380 I mean that's

01:51:23.100 a fantasy

TRIGGERnometry - December 27, 2023

Comedians Review 2023 - Andrew Doyle & Geoff Norcott X TRIGGERnometry

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