In this episode, we're joined by comedian and writer, Neil Shah, to talk about his career, his views on modern education, and his thoughts on the current state of education in the UK. We also hear from Simon and Penelope, two students who have completed their GCSE Maths exams and are now in the process of getting their A Level Maths exam results.
00:20:15.160And, you know, I think the original idea behind funding the arts in a country like Australia is because we're a small population.
00:20:23.160We just don't have the means to fund large projects or large comedy festivals in the same way America or even the UK does.
00:20:30.160And we also get exposed to a lot of American film and TV.
00:20:34.160So I think once upon a time, the government thought, well, let's just fund the art scene here because that will help grow the scene and allow artists here to have a career without having to move overseas.
00:20:45.160But, yes, what's happened is that they now have a monopoly over that.
00:20:49.160Well, it's slowly declining for the last couple of decades.
00:20:54.160And, you know, when you have a bunch of people in the professional managerial class choosing, you know, the comedians that they personally like, they're not necessarily a reflection of the greater population.
00:21:07.160And they pick a group of comedians that a lot of people are just, it's not just me, it's like a lot of people are just really dismayed at what they're seeing.
00:21:15.160And it's a tragedy because, you know, if there was, I guess if there was more of an incentive to actually make money, because if it's government fund, obviously they don't have to worry about the profit too much, then they'd be forced to at least appeal to the masses to some degree.
00:21:30.160I mean, you can also take some risks with some alternative acts and whatnot, but that's why I like the club scene.
00:21:37.160I think the way that, I guess, the way that the system is in America is that, at least from what I can gather, is that you sort of make it in the club scene and then maybe you get on a talk show or TV or whatever it might be there.
00:21:53.160Now there's the internet, obviously, but I just think the incentives there are just much better because to have a good club, 10-minute set, you have to be very funny, you have to be very punchy, you have to appeal to a broader audience.
00:22:06.380Whereas to sort of appease the festival scene and the sort of arts bureaucrats, you've got to be a bit, you've got to just be weird, I guess.
00:22:17.480Yeah, you know what I find really interesting is that we're talking about this, and on the one hand, we're talking about the Melbourne Comedy Festival, but we could just as easily be talking about the BBC.
00:22:49.260You would want to do so well in Edinburgh that you'd get transferred to Melbourne.
00:22:52.620I think if you talk to a lot of comedians, young comedians now, and ask them if they want to do Melbourne, you'd probably get at best a shrug of the shoulders.
00:23:00.720Yeah, the comedians of my generation, late 20s, early 30s, I mean, people will still do it.
00:23:06.000You sort of, you have to, but they're just not happy with it at the end of the day.
00:23:11.560They're not happy with how they've been treated, and we're paying into it as well.
00:23:17.680Often you don't make a lot of money doing these festivals, and to just be despondent at the final product is just sad.
00:23:24.920I think the people who run the organisation need to look at it a little bit.
00:23:30.080Look, I don't think these people are sort of bad individuals, but I just think they've been in an echo chamber for a long time, and they haven't gotten out of that and sort of have tried to be too controlling with the sort of styles they want to put out there.
00:23:44.640And a lot of people just, again, it's not just me.
00:23:47.440It's just a lot of people just don't like it.
00:23:49.520Well, that thing you said about incentives, I think, is very true as well.
00:23:53.820One of the things I remember Jordan Peterson talking a lot about when I was on tour with him was how the market profit motive is not necessarily the purest always and the right one always, but there's a lot worse ones.
00:24:09.200And a situation when you have a bunch of people who don't care about whether a festival they organise makes money or not is a problem because there are perverse incentive structures there, and people then start to imagine that they are the arbiters of taste for the entire nation.
00:24:26.640And the feedback that comes from poor ticket sales and all the rest of it just doesn't register.
00:24:37.180It's we know what good art is and, you know, there's a bunch of critics who don't even do comedy.
00:24:43.420They're art critics and they're sitting there judging a comedy show as though it was a theatrical performance.
00:24:48.840And, yeah, I think they actually just look down on the art form of comedy.
00:24:53.740A lot of the critics and things like that, I think they like the theatre and they like cabaret and they like all these sort of highbrow forms of art, which are great, don't get me wrong, but comedy isn't that, you know.
00:25:04.120It can be, it can be, it can be very intellectual and there are great comedians who do political satire, but for the most part stand-up comedy is for the everyman.
00:25:14.000It's performed at clubs and it's for people who are drinking and it's not this sort of highbrow intellectual artistic pursuit.
00:25:23.100It's something that's fun and for everyone.
00:25:25.240And I think they don't like that and they're trying to control that and it's not working and they don't realise it.
00:25:37.580Why do you think that they think the theatre is more worthy of respect and, you know, to be considered whilst somebody going up on a stage making an audience cry with laughter?
00:25:51.080That is a real art form and it's a real skill and very few people can actually do it.
00:25:56.600Why do you think they're so contemptuous of it for want of a better word of it?
00:26:00.360I think they're just comedy illiterate.
00:26:02.400Like they, on face value, if someone's going out there and making lowbrow jokes and sex jokes and things, the vibe is that it's, oh, it's dumb and it's not particularly smart.
00:26:13.340But as you guys would know, to write good jokes on that particular subject matter, it's very difficult.
00:26:19.520And I just don't think they've been, I don't think they've sort of been educated in the art form of comedy, ironically.
00:26:24.420Now, they think everyone else is uneducated.
00:26:26.200I think they're not educated in the art form of stand-up comedy because I think people confuse lowbrow comedy with being dumb when actually you can do very smart lowbrow comedy, if that makes sense.
00:26:39.260You can do really smart comedy about topics and subject matters that some people would see as crass.
00:26:49.040And I think they see it as a lower form of art and they just, you know, to do good art, you need to make people cry and you need to have a message and you need to have a narrative in there.
00:27:01.720And I actually think that's easier to do.
00:27:02.960Like there's a lot of, I don't know if you get that in the UK festivals, but you get these sort of hybrid comedy shows where someone get on stage, do a couple of jokes and then say, well, this is, this is, I'm taking the mask off now.
00:27:27.180It's, it's, yeah, it's, it's harder to actually be funny for an hour than it is to say, you know, something like that and evoke empathy from an audience with your sad stories.
00:27:39.500Everyone's got some sad stories and things.
00:30:50.860That's why I actually really liked Baby Reindeer, because the transgender woman was a legitimate part of the story.
00:31:01.760She wasn't put in there as like, oh, look how we're meeting targets.
00:31:06.160It was, no, this person is a part of the story.
00:31:08.600Yeah, I mean, I haven't seen Baby Reindeer yet, but there really is this obsession with presenting people in these sort of protected classes as purely just victims and nothing else.
00:31:21.820And, you know, I don't really see myself as a victim.
00:31:25.060I mean, there's times where maybe I've been victimized, but I wouldn't sort of classify that as the main story of my life.
00:31:34.520I think that's maybe that's actually a symptom of a deeper mental illness or something.
00:31:39.340I mean, I'm not I'm not trying to be too cruel here, but I think a lot of these people maybe I actually think.
00:31:44.800There's these sort of collective, almost abusive relationships, like you're in some sort of cult because in a sort of controlling, abusive relationship, there's someone who's the savior.
00:32:13.340And you need to vote for these policies.
00:32:15.000And they're always the policies for one particular political party, usually.
00:32:19.300So I think a lot of people are actually in a kind of cult.
00:32:23.120And then when I was young, I just sort of just natural that if you're a young person and you're in the arts, you're creative, you're also a minority.
00:32:32.520You just think, OK, obviously, I'm this.
00:32:36.480But eventually you realize, oh, this is actually more about you being a savior than genuinely wanting to help anyone.
00:32:44.920And actually, people on the left will also talk about the savior complex.
00:32:48.860So I think more people need to be aware of that.
00:32:53.340And we're so cognizant now of an abusive dynamic in a relationship on an individual scale when it's a romantic relationship.
00:33:03.400But I think there's sort of a covert narcissism and covert abuse that's going on on a collective scale here as well.
00:33:10.680Because when we were in the Edinburgh Fest, we were walking around and we're going, is everybody in here queer?
00:33:17.780And I realize that doesn't sound good in my voice, right?
00:33:20.620OK, but you're just walking around going, what, literally everyone?
00:33:25.060There is something going on here, surely.
00:33:27.200Yeah, because even then, OK, maybe the initial goal of diversity was let's create something that's reflective of the general population.
00:33:35.360And the general population isn't 100 percent queer.
00:33:38.080It's maybe, what is it now, 10 to 20 percent?
00:33:40.420So, look, if 10 percent of the shows had a queer performer, then maybe, OK, that seems like, OK, that's a reflection of the general population.
00:33:49.100And, of course, just because something isn't a reflection of the general population doesn't mean it's fundamentally flawed.
00:33:55.300But when the whole thing is queer, you're like, all right, this is not actually a reflection of the general population.
00:34:01.360Well, this is where you come back to this almost kind of like state planning of things, because that's why the state planning system doesn't work, because it's like overreacting to things 10 years too late, 10 times too much.
00:34:16.420Yeah, I don't think the state is particularly good at influencing culture.
00:34:19.200If anything, it creates a rebellious streak in the population and they do the opposite.
00:34:50.440So, you know, I'd probably be in that boat as well.
00:34:52.860So, yeah, look, even the people who you would consider would fit the stereotype of being super progressive, you have a few drinks with them and then they'll vent about it as well.
00:35:07.200So I think there is this despondency with the way things are, but people just are unsure how exactly to rebel against that because they are afraid of the opposite reaction as well.
00:35:19.480But that's what I find frustrating, Neil, because the number of times I'm in a comedy club and, you know, people look around and they go, oh, you know, one comedian always made a joke.
00:35:30.760Hey, you know, I agree with everything you say.
00:35:35.720And you go, well, then we're all screwed.
00:35:40.100There was one instance where I was in a comedy club a few weeks ago and there was this comedian and they were saying, oh, I wouldn't, you know, you know, this trans stuff is insane.
00:36:40.320Because what seems to be happening is there's a lot of tension and I completely understand that.
00:36:44.500But then if people are just saying the thing that they're not supposed to say just as a, as a form of release, as a form of catharsis, I don't know if that's necessarily the healthiest thing either.
00:36:55.680And I think even in comedy, which is maybe a subset of culture at large, you're getting these comedians now who are saying, oh, I'm not allowed to make that joke.
00:37:06.120I'll just make the most, the worst joke that, that will, that'll just defend this part of the culture.
00:37:12.100And I also don't know if that's the highest form of comedy either.
00:37:15.880I think you can still make better artistic choice.
00:37:19.040I think I can understand why there is a growing demand for that and why there's a sense of catharsis that comes when you hear people saying that.
00:37:26.860But I still think there's something to be said about finding a nice middle ground where we can all just joke with each other and have a good time and not feel threatened by what's, by what's going on.
00:37:39.800Because then there's also another problem arises, which is then the actual judgment of art or comedy is then becomes hyper partisan.
00:37:49.780And, you know, it's judged based on not, not on any sort of objective criteria of whether that was a well-written joke, but whether they said the right thing for this political tribe or whether they said the right thing for that political tribe.
00:38:01.080And it's just, yeah, I mean, I mean, like people like you, though, are doing a great job at changing that.
00:38:06.880And I think there are a lot of comedians who are saying, look, I'm not, I'm not trying to be either left wing or right wing.
00:38:12.880I'm just trying to make some jokes here and, and, and laugh at everyone.
00:38:16.120And I mean, that's the best thing we can do right now.
00:38:19.720Well, the interesting thing is what you're saying.
00:38:24.280There are some people who've forgotten to be funny and they now just want to be offensive because that's, that's what they think is cool.
00:38:31.080But I ask you, I actually think the same is happening in, in the realm of ideas and the realm of culture and politics more broadly, because now you have people who think that like they took the idea that let's say the media weren't always honest, which we all know, through to you can't believe anything anyone says.
00:38:51.220And now we've got to go and unpick every single thing that we were told to believe.
00:39:16.840Because they were always the one that said, well, we need to protect speech because we need to have, you know, guardrails and hate speech laws because then that just opens the door for these really extreme views.
00:39:27.020And then if you're doing that, you're just, you're just giving them what they wanted.
00:39:30.460So I think there's still something to be said.
00:39:32.660I get it, you know, it can be so frustrating dealing with the bounds of what we're allowed to say culturally.
00:39:40.380But I still think there's something to be said about actually having a bit of discipline with what we say and, you know, trying to appeal to the other side.
00:39:48.020I think that's sort of a lost art where you can, I get, I try to go to the comedy rooms that are considered woke or whatever.
00:39:54.180I mean, I really try to make an effort to go there and have a good set and make them laugh because I think that's saying something.
00:40:02.800I still want to be able to appeal to people like that.
00:40:06.120And I, yeah, I don't, I don't really think it's healthy to just vacillate between one extreme to the other.
00:40:13.200And I think there's just an, it's also just a big identity crisis where people are latching onto political identities because it gives them a sense of purpose.
00:40:21.360And, you know, we're in a very individualistic.
00:40:23.100And a pre-made audience, a pre-made audience to play to.
00:40:27.100Yeah, the money that comes with it, all of that sort of stuff.
00:40:30.780And then you get audience capture and all of that.
00:40:33.400So, yeah, it's tempting to just go one way or the other.
00:40:37.680And, you know, when I was younger, I think I did make artistic choices that maybe I look back on now and I think, okay, was that the best artistic choice I could have made?
00:40:46.260Or was it something that was just fulfilling?
00:40:48.860You know, I just felt a release of tension because I got to say the thing that I wasn't allowed to say.
00:40:55.080And so, yeah, I can totally understand why there is this growing movement to just say it and be really open with what you think.
00:41:05.680Like, I mean, something like Andrew Tate's probably a perfect example of that where he's just said, whatever people are saying you're not allowed to say, I'm just going to say the complete opposite.
00:41:15.380I'm just going to tell young men, like, this is how you do it.
00:41:18.260And I can understand why there's a lust for that.
00:41:21.520But I still think there's something to be said about curtailing, well, not sort of limiting what you might want to say, but expressing things in a way that can be accessible to all sides of culture.
00:41:36.860I mean, that's still a skill people can hopefully aim for.
00:41:40.220The thing that I find frustrating when we have these conversations is what people don't seem to realize on the kind of progressive left, for want of a better term, on the extremes is, you know, the cancellation, the silencing people, the shaming people for having mainstream political opinions or cultural opinions.
00:41:58.040They don't seem to realize that they're then fueling this rise on the opposite side of the spectrum.
00:42:03.940And the more they push down here, the more this rises.
00:42:07.600And then they start complaining about what's happening in the culture.
00:42:12.120And you say to them, do you not understand that this is partially being created by what you were doing here?
00:42:20.040Well, they're manifesting that reality into existence because by having this narrative that, oh, everyone's so hateful and, you know, you're going to just get, if you just let people say what they want, there's just going to be racism everywhere.
00:42:31.720People just get so fed up that they might just say things then because they think, well, I'm going to get called or whatever anyway.
00:42:39.340And I would bring it back to that sort of dynamic of maybe a relationship where some people will have this narrative about the opposite sex or about a particular person where, you know, on a matter what relationships, everyone's out for themselves and everyone's trying to get and people just leave you at the end of the day.
00:42:57.940But then that makes you act in a way where someone will leave you.
00:43:01.980And so it just validates your narrative.
00:43:03.540And so subconsciously, you actually attract that.
00:43:05.600And I think on a collective scale, that's what's happening.
00:43:08.320Subconsciously, they're creating this world that they've been supposedly trying to prevent us from.
00:43:15.340And it's a great point because you see the way that we have discourse online.