TRIGGERnometry - January 17, 2024


Communist Spies in Hollywood？ - Michael Malice


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 11 minutes

Words per minute

189.2621

Word count

13,446

Sentence count

1,172

Harmful content

Misogyny

44

sentences flagged

Toxicity

104

sentences flagged

Hate speech

59

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

On this week's episode of Thick & Thin, the boys are joined by their good friend and former co-host Michael McCartan to discuss McCarthyism and why it's still relevant today. They also talk about why they don't want to live in the past.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:01.000 Joseph Stalin got the nuclear bomb from communists working in the US. 0.81
00:00:05.960 So this idea that there was this sort of like witch hunt that was completely baseless never
00:00:11.160 quite made sense to me.
00:00:12.960 It's not that they're saying, have you had communist ideas?
00:00:16.500 They were asking, were you a member of a secret organization taking orders from a foreign
00:00:23.320 power intentionally designed to destroy your current political system and implement a
00:00:29.760 totalitarian dictatorship based on violence?
00:00:33.000 Michael, it's so awesome to have you back.
00:00:35.400 We've had you on the show a couple of times.
00:00:36.760 And I will be honest with you, when we were coming to Austin, we were like, we've had Michael
00:00:39.840 on.
00:00:40.840 You know, we probably talked about a lot of the stuff that we could talk with him about,
00:00:44.120 blah, blah, blah.
00:00:45.120 And then-
00:00:46.120 It's a wrap.
00:00:47.120 It's a wrap.
00:00:48.120 That's it.
00:00:49.120 We've had that well.
00:00:50.120 It's not a deep well. 0.99
00:00:51.120 We have drained his intellectual balls. 0.99
00:00:52.960 That's it. 0.99
00:00:53.960 There's nothing left.
00:00:54.960 Right.
00:00:55.960 But then we went for dinner and we just had the most incredible conversations about all
00:00:59.240 sorts of stuff.
00:01:00.240 Yeah. 0.99
00:01:01.240 And we found out that your balls are indeed still quite full. 1.00
00:01:03.240 Yeah, they are. 1.00
00:01:04.240 Full of intellectual.
00:01:05.240 You are welcome.
00:01:07.240 No, man.
00:01:08.240 But it was awesome.
00:01:10.240 And-
00:01:11.240 Are they half full?
00:01:12.240 Are they half empty?
00:01:13.240 I'm trying to be serious.
00:01:16.240 Let's find out.
00:01:21.240 And we talked about lots of different things.
00:01:24.240 And I was sitting there the whole time thinking, why are there no cameras here?
00:01:27.240 Because it would have been even more awesome if we had that recorded.
00:01:29.240 There's no way that conversation could be aired publicly.
00:01:31.240 That is true.
00:01:32.240 But we're going to try to do the part of it that we can do on camera.
00:01:35.240 Okay.
00:01:36.240 Okay.
00:01:37.240 Okay, so I should take my pants off now.
00:01:42.240 And also Melissa Chen was there.
00:01:43.240 Have you had her on?
00:01:44.240 She's terrific.
00:01:45.240 Yes.
00:01:46.240 We've had her on twice.
00:01:47.240 She is the most difficult guest I've had.
00:01:49.240 And I've said this to her, her face, and I've said it publicly.
00:01:52.240 Why? 0.99
00:01:53.240 Like every aspect of having her on my show was a pain in the ass, even though I adore 0.99
00:01:57.240 her. 0.99
00:01:58.240 Why was there a pain in the ass? 0.99
00:01:59.240 She was complaining about the thumbnail and then she was late and it was a whole thing. 0.99
00:02:02.240 Like I had to reschedule three times.
00:02:04.240 I kind of admired the diva aspect of it to me.
00:02:07.240 Someone as beautiful as her complaining about the thumbnail drove me crazy. 1.00
00:02:11.240 Really?
00:02:12.240 You're a knockout. 0.66
00:02:13.240 You know you're a knockout.
00:02:14.240 Yeah.
00:02:15.240 I mean...
00:02:16.240 Just like you, Michael.
00:02:17.240 Well, I am an underwear model.
00:02:18.240 You're an underwear model. 0.97
00:02:19.240 Yeah, sheathunderwear.com.
00:02:20.240 Go to sheath and use promo code MALICE for 10% off.
00:02:23.240 It's the underwear that has a separate pouch for both parts of your male anatomy.
00:02:26.240 Right.
00:02:27.240 Can we concentrate?
00:02:28.240 Sheath.com.
00:02:29.240 Michael, put your pants away.
00:02:31.240 I know you've been told that many times before.
00:02:34.240 It was created by a guy from the Iraq war because it was hot down there, over there.
00:02:39.240 Okay.
00:02:40.240 How do we segue from that to a serious...
00:02:43.240 Michael, let's talk about McCarthyism.
00:02:46.240 Sure.
00:02:47.240 I mean, that is a hell of a segue.
00:02:49.240 It's a segue.
00:02:50.240 Sure.
00:02:51.240 It's a ballsy topic.
00:02:52.240 There it is.
00:02:53.240 I did it.
00:02:54.240 One of the things that we're talking about at dinner is there's lots of stuff that we
00:02:57.240 have a conventional narrative about.
00:02:59.240 Yes.
00:03:00.240 That is...
00:03:01.240 I think...
00:03:02.240 I'm going to cut you off just...
00:03:03.240 No, no, no. 0.86
00:03:04.240 You help yourself, man.
00:03:05.240 Because I think everything has a conventional narrative.
00:03:07.240 And at a certain point when people become what's called red-pilled, you have that moment where 0.97
00:03:14.240 you're like, oh crap. 0.87
00:03:15.240 Like literally everything I've taught is a narrative. 0.81
00:03:18.240 Now the narrative might be true, but it is still a narrative because humans communicate
00:03:22.240 not through reason, but through stories.
00:03:24.240 Yeah.
00:03:25.240 That's a really good point.
00:03:26.240 Yeah.
00:03:27.240 Stories are very powerful way of getting people's attention and actually of misleading people.
00:03:31.240 Absolutely.
00:03:32.240 And also because we are emotional thinkers, not rational thinkers, and that applies to
00:03:36.240 all of us to some extent.
00:03:37.240 So when you have a story that kind of makes sense and makes you feel a certain way, it's
00:03:42.240 going to be far more persuasive than any charts and graphs, which can often be faked
00:03:45.240 anyway.
00:03:46.240 And also as well with a story, you can make it incredibly simple.
00:03:49.240 It's the story of good and evil.
00:03:50.240 Yes.
00:03:51.240 The hero's journey.
00:03:52.240 Yeah.
00:03:53.240 Whoever the hero may be, we identify with the hero and therefore it becomes emotional.
00:03:58.240 And we don't want to look at the nuance and complexity of the issue.
00:04:01.240 Are you, is that passive aggression?
00:04:03.240 No.
00:04:04.240 The subtitle of the white pill is a tale of good and evil.
00:04:07.240 So yeah, you're kind of dropping my mask.
00:04:10.240 Good and evil does exist.
00:04:12.240 But the reason I brought up McCarthyism, I always had this deep suspicion about that thing
00:04:18.240 because when I was researching my book and long before that, frankly, like Joseph Stalin,
00:04:23.240 the most evil dictator in the 20th century.
00:04:26.240 Or now.
00:04:27.240 I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a what off.
00:04:30.240 It's a, it's a kill off.
00:04:31.240 It's a, yeah, but yeah.
00:04:32.240 It's a camp off.
00:04:33.240 I don't know.
00:04:34.240 Sure.
00:04:35.240 Camp off is something very different, mate. 0.94
00:04:36.240 Well, I don't go to that many gay parties. 0.89
00:04:38.240 Anyway.
00:04:39.240 Not that many.
00:04:40.240 Just enough.
00:04:41.240 Just enough.
00:04:42.240 Just the taste.
00:04:43.240 Just a little flavor.
00:04:44.240 Yeah.
00:04:45.240 I mean, Joseph Stalin got the nuclear bomb from communists working in the US. 0.84
00:04:50.240 Right.
00:04:51.240 So this idea that there was this sort of like witch hunt that was completely baseless
00:04:56.240 and that McCarthyism was about hunting down people who weren't at all communists, etc.
00:05:01.240 Never quite made sense to me, but I'd never bothered to look into it.
00:05:04.240 So we're sitting there over dinner and I was like, Michael, given that we're talking about destroying narratives,
00:05:08.240 just tell me about it.
00:05:09.240 And you were just like.
00:05:10.240 I did throw up.
00:05:11.240 You literally threw up. 0.96
00:05:12.240 Sickening. 0.97
00:05:13.240 Sickening. 0.99
00:05:14.240 So tell us about McCarthyism.
00:05:15.240 Well, first of all, I had a quote from my book, The White Pill.
00:05:19.240 I don't have it in front of me, but there was a playwright, Molly Thatcher, Molly Day Thatcher,
00:05:23.240 I think what her name was.
00:05:24.240 And she goes, there were no witches. 0.97
00:05:27.240 Like the term itself is intellectually dishonest, but there were, she goes, no, try to talk to someone
00:05:33.240 the left and tell them that there were no communists in the unions, in Hollywood, in politics,
00:05:38.240 who were working systemically under orders from a foreign nation to implement a violent overthrow of the state
00:05:45.240 and implement a totalitarian dictatorship. 0.98
00:05:48.240 She goes, they know better because that term is intellectually dishonest and ridiculous.
00:05:53.240 And Arthur Miller, who wrote The Crucible, which was kind of analogous to McCarthy era, years later, was like,
00:06:02.240 we didn't have it in our framework that all these things that we hated about Hitler originated in the Soviet system.
00:06:10.240 The secret police, the camps, turning families against each other.
00:06:14.240 You know, I don't have the laundry list off to my head.
00:06:15.240 It's also in the book.
00:06:16.240 But Arthur Miller was like, like all these awful things that we hated about the Nazis, they got from, 0.97
00:06:21.240 or had at least preceded them in the Soviet system.
00:06:26.240 So the term itself McCarthyism is also intellectually dishonest because McCarthy was a senator.
00:06:31.240 The House Un-American Activities Committee was in the House and that preceded him to some extent.
00:06:37.240 And the question wasn't, it's portrayed as people were just members of this party.
00:06:44.240 Like, it's not like they were like, Francis, were you ever a member of the Green Party?
00:06:49.240 This was a criminal organization under foreign control, you know, engaged in terrorism and violence and all sorts of horrific- 0.75
00:07:00.240 And espionage.
00:07:01.240 And espionage, all sorts of horrific activity.
00:07:03.240 But it's portrayed as just basically instead of voting D or R, you're voting C.
00:07:06.240 They don't believe in voting.
00:07:08.240 The whole point is to destroy democracy.
00:07:11.240 And they were influential in getting Hitler into power in Germany because, like, we're not going to ally with the leftist party, the socialist party. 0.84
00:07:20.240 And they called them, was it called them social fascist, whatever the term was?
00:07:23.240 I forget what the term was.
00:07:25.240 But so it's, and it's just interesting because this is the one time in the U.S. where leftists were canceled.
00:07:33.240 And it's portrayed as the second worst thing to have ever happened in America other than slavery.
00:07:38.240 And from their perspective, it is because this is, and again, this isn't leftist in the sense of we need healthcare for the poor.
00:07:45.240 You know, people who can't afford college should get a handout and it's going to earn back for the society because, yeah, we're paying for their schooling, but they're going to become doctors and engineers.
00:07:54.240 This is better for everybody.
00:07:55.240 This is a violent totalitarian ideology discussed in secret and with consequences, as you saw, such as, you know, Stalin getting the bomb and things like the Korean War and all sorts of other things.
00:08:11.240 I think as well, Michael, that there is a little bit of a gray line to me, which is people are allowed to believe ridiculous things.
00:08:20.240 Sure.
00:08:21.240 You know, I don't think that we should.
00:08:23.240 I mean, this again, this is a gray line.
00:08:25.240 For example, there are people who describe themselves as socialists and as somebody who has seen socialism close up and seen the horrors of socialism. 1.00
00:08:33.240 I think that they are demented and stupid, to put it bluntly. 0.99
00:08:37.240 However, I don't think they should have their professional opportunities curtailed just because I identify as being socialist. 1.00
00:08:43.240 So to me, there's always a gray line.
00:08:45.240 Curtailed by whom?
00:08:46.240 Sorry?
00:08:47.240 Curtailed by whom?
00:08:48.240 Curtailed by whom?
00:08:49.240 But so, for instance, if you...
00:08:51.240 Are you going to hire Klansmen?
00:08:53.240 Am I going to hire Klansmen? 0.92
00:08:54.240 There's not many of them in South London.
00:08:56.240 Okay.
00:08:57.240 Are you going to hire someone from the National Front?
00:08:59.240 No.
00:09:00.240 No, they don't exist anymore.
00:09:01.240 But do you see...
00:09:02.240 Look, let's stop playing games.
00:09:03.240 No, no, no.
00:09:04.240 I'm not playing games.
00:09:05.240 No, no, no, no, no.
00:09:06.240 I'm talking to him.
00:09:07.240 No, no, no, no, no.
00:09:08.240 This is like a circular firing spot.
00:09:10.240 Yeah.
00:09:11.240 But there was a very...
00:09:12.240 That's the Polish communism. 0.89
00:09:14.240 Yeah.
00:09:15.240 But there was a very interesting case about 15 years ago when the BNP was still the British National Party who were our kind of version of the far right.
00:09:24.240 There was a teacher who was fired for being a member of the British National Party.
00:09:29.240 And to me, there's always that grey line.
00:09:34.240 Do you see what I mean?
00:09:35.240 There's a difference between the government does it and when you do it privately.
00:09:38.240 Yeah.
00:09:39.240 It wasn't that it was illegal for you to hire a Hollywood screenwriter who was a communist.
00:09:43.240 And they often just changed their names that had no consequences if not were, you know, valorized for their courage in the face of adversity.
00:09:49.240 Lillian Hellman went to her grave unapologetic for her defense of Stalin.
00:09:53.240 And again, this is not that they were simply, I like communism.
00:09:57.240 This is I want Stalin to have control over America. 0.80
00:10:02.240 This is the...
00:10:03.240 They're trying to create a grey area where, in my view, there is none.
00:10:07.240 And I agree with you that if someone's a teacher, you know, this is something we need to worry about.
00:10:11.240 Because it's like if the government's just picking and choosing who could be a teacher, so on and so forth.
00:10:15.240 But McCarthyism, broadly speaking, although it does speak to the government committees that were investigating this.
00:10:22.240 It also speaks to this idea of, do I want people like this working for me?
00:10:27.240 And if I discover that they're secretly doing this and, you know, putting their ideas, their demonic ideas into my films or my books or so on and so forth.
00:10:37.240 Do I want this person on my payroll?
00:10:39.240 I think that's a...
00:10:40.240 That is not only a legitimate question.
00:10:42.240 It's an unavoidable question.
00:10:44.240 Because everyone listening to this, there are people whose views they would find so abhorrent that they would never hire them.
00:10:50.240 Yeah.
00:10:51.240 Right.
00:10:52.240 Michael, maybe it's helpful at this point to actually, given that not many people know history particularly of that period, to actually explain what happened during that so-called McCarthyism.
00:11:03.240 What was actually being done?
00:11:05.240 Well, I mean, this is a kind of a long...
00:11:08.240 So...
00:11:09.240 Okay.
00:11:11.240 There's just so many moving parts here and I'll try to break down as efficiently as possible.
00:11:16.240 The thing...
00:11:17.240 And I'm going to start with the present day.
00:11:19.240 And this is why I'm just anticipating all the pushback because it's just very maddening and frustrating.
00:11:25.240 So boomer conservatives have...
00:11:27.240 In the same way that the definition of a racist is someone winning an argument with a leftist.
00:11:32.240 Right?
00:11:33.240 So...
00:11:34.240 The definition of a communist is someone who boomer conservatives don't like.
00:11:39.240 Right?
00:11:40.240 And they'll tell you with a straight face that Joe Biden is a communist and all this other stuff.
00:11:43.240 Joe Biden is a corporate hack.
00:11:45.240 He does not want the government running all industry.
00:11:48.240 And most people who in America are left of center, let's suppose the Democratic Party, are not...
00:11:55.240 Hillary Clinton's another example. 0.97
00:11:57.240 Maybe she has totalitarian tendencies just in a personality wise. 1.00
00:12:00.240 She's perfectly happy to have Wall Street run everything. 1.00
00:12:03.240 The communists and Wall Street are not friends in the sense that they are content to have Wall Street run everything.
00:12:08.240 They want the state to run everything.
00:12:10.240 And you might kind of try to evade the issue and be like, well, at the end of the day, it's just the same.
00:12:14.240 It's really not the same.
00:12:15.240 It's having a monopoly as opposed to having enormous corporate control.
00:12:19.240 There's certain distinctions.
00:12:20.240 I'm not saying either is good or is bad.
00:12:22.240 I'm just saying they're not interchangeable.
00:12:25.240 So as a result of this, they can't wrap their heads around some of the biggest anti-communists were hardcore leftists.
00:12:33.240 Harry Truman is a great example of this.
00:12:35.240 He became president after FDR and though they were kind of shaking hands with Stalin to fight Hitler,
00:12:40.240 that quickly fell apart after World War II and the Cold War happened.
00:12:45.240 It was Churchill in, I forget what it was, Nebraska maybe?
00:12:48.240 He gave some speech in American College and he coined the term Iron Curtain.
00:12:52.240 He said, Iron Curtain has fallen over Europe.
00:12:54.240 And the good guys were on this side and the bad guys were on that side.
00:12:57.240 And what's shocking to me and one of the reasons I wrote the white pill is it is completely indisputable that for decades this was the central foreign policy issue for everyone on Earth.
00:13:07.240 You know, you had the communist second world, the Western first world, who's going to win? 0.94
00:13:12.240 And, you know, it was not at all obvious.
00:13:14.240 It was not at all clear that the West was going to win.
00:13:17.240 Sputnik was a great example of this.
00:13:18.240 They got a satellite into space before we did.
00:13:20.240 This was proof that the Soviet system is great. 0.88
00:13:23.240 And, you know, when Germany was divided into East and West, it's like, all right, this is kind of proof of concept.
00:13:29.240 And North Korea was doing better than South Korea until I think the early 80s because they were getting subsidies from the USSR and from the Soviet Union.
00:13:38.240 So what happens is you have the Korean War, you know, very quickly, the early 50s, right after World War II.
00:13:45.240 And we were, you know, we had BDE, right, because we won World War II, even though the Russians, like, lost so many more people than we did. 0.58
00:13:55.240 Like, we kind of, we emerged unscathed.
00:13:59.240 Like, America became the undisputed leader of the free world.
00:14:04.240 And then it's like, all right, now the fact that the Korean War was a draw, this really changed that narrative.
00:14:11.240 And this is why the Korean War in America is still called, like, the Forgotten War, because what's the story here?
00:14:16.240 Like, World War II is a great story. 0.91
00:14:18.240 Good guys versus bad guys.
00:14:19.240 And we kind of don't talk about Stalin, right?
00:14:21.240 World War I, okay, it was a disaster.
00:14:23.240 It was a mess.
00:14:24.240 But it's like, the narrative kind of is like, don't get involved in international affairs if you don't need to.
00:14:29.240 You know, what a tragedy, so on and so forth.
00:14:31.240 Vietnam is more talked about what happened here and the reaction as opposed to, why are we there to begin with? 0.96
00:14:38.240 We had our asses handed to us, you know, what happened?
00:14:41.240 When they teach the Vietnam War here, they don't really teach about what happened to Vietnam after. 0.97
00:14:45.240 It's just like, we were there, you know, we were kind of routed, and like, now let's talk about something else.
00:14:50.240 It's very, there's no follow up.
00:14:52.240 And this happens a lot with media narratives.
00:14:54.240 A good example I remember, even I don't know the conclusion to this, just to kind of start a sidebar.
00:14:59.240 I remember Greece was having issues with their national debt and deficit, right?
00:15:03.240 And the EU and Merkel were putting pressure on them.
00:15:06.240 And you had this far left party, we're like, we're going to repudiate the debt, we're not going to pay it back.
00:15:11.240 And the EU's like, we're not going to do, you can't do that.
00:15:13.240 And they got voted in, and then everyone just stopped talking about it.
00:15:16.240 Like, there was no follow up here, by the way, of what happened after that parliamentary election where that far left party got in.
00:15:23.240 Anyway, so as a result of this kind of international rivalry, it was discovered that during the 30s, and there's a great book about this called The Red Decade,
00:15:34.240 to what extent communism really captured the hearts and minds of Western intellectuals.
00:15:40.240 It was much worse in Great Britain than the States, much, much worse.
00:15:45.240 Because what you had people who were openly talking about, like, look, if we can't get it democratically, we're going to get it through revolution and things like this.
00:15:52.240 And this guy was, I think, the chairman of the Labour Party.
00:15:56.240 So you had these congressional investigations.
00:15:58.240 They found lots of stuff.
00:16:01.240 They also accused perfectly innocent people, or people who had communist sympathies.
00:16:05.240 And in many cases, you know, their lives were wrecked.
00:16:08.240 So this is just a testament, in my opinion, to some extent, to the inefficiencies of government.
00:16:13.240 And Congress is not really interested in finding truth.
00:16:16.240 Congress is interested in grandstanding.
00:16:18.240 But that term, McCarthyism, applies to many disparate concepts that are conflated together and thrown away.
00:16:27.240 And I agree, it is important for people to have access to ideas and to be able to hold whatever ideas that they want.
00:16:35.240 But I don't think anyone believes with a straight face that no matter what ideas someone has, they should never, you know, not be fired from their jobs.
00:16:44.240 Maybe government is a different situation because that's a free speech issue, First Amendment issue.
00:16:48.240 No, it's a very interesting point that you raise.
00:16:51.240 And it's something that I really struggle with.
00:16:53.240 Because if you believe in free speech, then everybody should be able to, you know, they have the right to their ideas.
00:17:01.240 But yet, if you are pragmatic, you realize that some ideas are so abhorrent that you wouldn't want to let this person with incredibly abhorrent ideas through the front door.
00:17:11.240 But the key is, it's not that they're saying, have you had communist ideas?
00:17:16.240 They were asking, were you a member of a secret organization taking orders from a foreign power intentionally designed to destroy your current political system and implement a totalitarian dictatorship based on violence?
00:17:32.240 That's not the same as being a member of the Green Party or being, you know, a member of a socialist party.
00:17:38.240 Michael, and then what happens in the 60s? Because the narrative is, and this is the alternative conventional narrative, is that Western communists sort of realized that communism in terms of dividing people by social class wasn't going to work in the West.
00:17:57.240 The workers were not going to rebel against the bourgeois because they all sort of thought, you know, the American dream is everyone thinks they're going to be a millionaire one day.
00:18:06.240 So why would we tax millionaires type of thing? And then in the 60s, they kind of go, OK, we'll find a different way to divide people and we'll divide them along race.
00:18:15.240 We'll divide them along sex. We'll divide them along sexuality, etc. 0.95
00:18:19.240 Is that do you buy that or is there a difference?
00:18:22.240 But I would just edit that slightly. It's not that we will divide them.
00:18:27.240 It's that people, instead of being divided by class and irrevocably divided by class, the whole point, there's this concept under Marxism called polylogy.
00:18:35.240 Which is like, you know, oh, you're bourgeois. You could never understand my working class thinking because we're fundamentally inherently different on a metaphysical level.
00:18:48.240 Which is why Lenin was like, all right, we just got to slaughter these people because I can't fix you. 0.92
00:18:53.240 Like you're a member of the bourgeoisie and you will die a member of the bourgeoisie. 0.50
00:18:57.240 They don't really like stick to it entirely because there were lots of, you know, these kind of champagne socialist limousine liberals, caviar communists who would like they perfectly welcomed in with open arms.
00:19:07.240 But that was kind of the approach to be like, well, there's just some people there's no reasoning with.
00:19:13.240 And that is true, broadly speaking, but it doesn't sort out by class at all in practice.
00:19:19.240 So then, as you saw correctly, James Lindsay is the king of this, his book, Race Marxism.
00:19:24.240 They took that polylogism and they applied it to, you know, different kind of identity politics.
00:19:29.240 And it's been enormously successful.
00:19:32.240 And you can see it every single instance where you see, as a black woman, it's like, well, hold on a minute. 0.82
00:19:37.240 I mean, that's a nonsensical way to proceed a sentence because the claim is, do all black people or all women or all black women think this?
00:19:46.240 No, you're one data point.
00:19:48.240 So I'm not in position to speak as a Texan or as someone from Ukraine or as a Jew or as a former New Yorker or as an American.
00:19:57.240 To some extent, I am.
00:19:58.240 But to say that like, well, as an American, blah, blah, blah, it is a bell curve and is a range.
00:20:04.240 But it's presented as each person kind of becomes the emperor of their own little niche.
00:20:09.240 And it also is a very effective argument technique because, well, you're a white man.
00:20:16.240 You can't understand what it's like to be a black woman, which is true to some extent. 1.00
00:20:20.240 You can't understand that experience 24-7 living that lifestyle.
00:20:24.240 But you can certainly understand that person's ideas and be amenable to having life be better for them and hear them out.
00:20:30.240 And it's also a very, very, very effective trick in order to silence people of your own race or background who disagree with you.
00:20:39.240 Yes.
00:20:40.240 Because you're like, I'm the spokesman for this person. 0.96
00:20:42.240 And then if this person challenges me, well, then you're a traitor to this group.
00:20:47.240 I think people underestimate to what extent this is metaphysical.
00:20:51.240 So in this kind of discourse, race is something that is a state of grace.
00:20:59.240 So in this worldview, Bill Clinton is literally black and Clarence Thomas is literally not.
00:21:06.240 It is a mind.
00:21:07.240 So race isn't just literally the color of your skin.
00:21:10.240 It is a set of ideas and, you know, class and all these other things that get packaged into it. 0.53
00:21:15.240 So, yeah, when they say that Larry Elder, is this a very notorious example, who ran for governor of California, was called the black face of white supremacy.
00:21:23.240 They weren't being ironic and or anything like that.
00:21:26.240 This is really kind of makes sense given their premises.
00:21:29.240 It is.
00:21:30.240 I remember watching this documentary on a heroine of mine who is Rachel Dolezal.
00:21:34.240 Okay.
00:21:35.240 Oh, yeah.
00:21:36.240 Did you see when she got trolled on Cameo?
00:21:37.240 Yeah.
00:21:38.240 Oh, yeah.
00:21:39.240 Yeah.
00:21:40.240 They actually bought me a Cameo for my 40th birthday from her.
00:21:42.240 Yeah, we did.
00:21:43.240 Oh.
00:21:44.240 Yeah.
00:21:45.240 It was a very nice touching moment.
00:21:46.240 But there was this really...
00:21:48.240 We should dig that up and play it.
00:21:50.240 Oh, of course.
00:21:51.240 We do have a special...
00:21:52.240 This is a video message for you, mate.
00:21:54.240 Have a look at this.
00:21:56.240 Hi, Francis.
00:21:57.240 This is Rachel Dolezal.
00:21:58.240 And I just wanted to wish you a very happy birthday.
00:22:01.240 Happy 50th.
00:22:02.240 This little shout out is from Squirrel.
00:22:05.240 And I hope that you have a very, very happy birthday.
00:22:08.240 Do something fun to celebrate.
00:22:10.240 And also, best of luck for your exam that's coming up in March this month.
00:22:17.240 So, I hope that you do well.
00:22:20.240 I hope that your studying goes well for that exam too.
00:22:23.240 And most importantly, happy, happy birthday.
00:22:26.240 There you go, mate.
00:22:27.240 Your favourite brown bird.
00:22:28.240 Wish you a happy 50th. 1.00
00:22:29.240 What is my fucking life? 0.99
00:22:30.240 There was this really interesting moment in her documentary where it obviously came out... 1.00
00:22:44.240 The truth came out, as it always does, that she's not black. 1.00
00:22:47.240 And she was doing a talk in front of these black students. 0.98
00:22:53.240 And this girl put her hand up and she went, you're not black because you haven't earned the right to be black. 0.99
00:22:59.240 And that to me was so interesting. 0.84
00:23:01.240 Because it's not an immutable characteristic.
00:23:03.240 It's something that you have to earn.
00:23:05.240 Yeah.
00:23:06.240 You have to suffer for it.
00:23:07.240 Which to me is a completely bizarre way of approaching race.
00:23:10.240 Why is it bizarre?
00:23:12.240 Because if in their subculture or this world's worldview, suffering is valorous.
00:23:17.240 Which is, you know, kind of an amazing generation of the Christian ethic.
00:23:21.240 So, of course, it's going to be like, I've suffered.
00:23:23.240 Therefore, I'm more virtuous than you.
00:23:24.240 It makes perfect sense.
00:23:25.240 It does.
00:23:27.240 It does make perfect sense.
00:23:29.240 But when you think of race as the mutable characteristic, then it doesn't make sense.
00:23:33.240 But they don't use language to communicate.
00:23:35.240 They use language to manipulate.
00:23:37.240 Yes.
00:23:38.240 So, it's irrelevant.
00:23:39.240 So, let's talk about that.
00:23:40.240 Because I think that fundamentally is what pisses me off the most about what's going on.
00:23:47.240 Words have meaning.
00:23:49.240 It depends.
00:23:51.240 I mean, I'm not trying to be pedantic.
00:23:53.240 But in one context, yes.
00:23:55.240 In another context, no.
00:23:57.240 So, you say that they're not using language to communicate.
00:24:00.240 They're using language to manipulate.
00:24:02.240 Right.
00:24:03.240 Why?
00:24:04.240 Why do people manipulate?
00:24:05.240 Yeah.
00:24:06.240 For power?
00:24:07.240 For status?
00:24:08.240 I mean, this is...
00:24:09.240 You don't need my insight into this.
00:24:11.240 Right.
00:24:12.240 So, how do we deal with that?
00:24:14.240 Well, this is the part we talked about at dinner.
00:24:17.240 I think in all seriousness, the way to deal with it, and I don't think you're there yet.
00:24:25.240 I'm not trying to be mean, is once you understand that, many things will grow clear to your
00:24:31.240 understanding.
00:24:32.240 Right?
00:24:33.240 You stop getting frustrated when you see like, oh, how could you say, you know, that Clarence
00:24:37.240 Thomas isn't really black?
00:24:38.240 You know, or so and so forth.
00:24:39.240 I got Wade, who lives here in Austin.
00:24:41.240 She's from Africa. 0.98
00:24:42.240 She's a great entrepreneur. 1.00
00:24:43.240 She's very, very dark.
00:24:45.240 And when you talk to her about this stuff, she kind of loses her mind because she's just
00:24:49.240 like, you know, this makes absolutely no sense.
00:24:51.240 I'm a very dark African black woman and you're telling me that I'm basically white.
00:24:56.240 You're from America.
00:24:57.240 I'm from Senegal.
00:24:58.240 Like, I'm from the motherland.
00:25:00.240 I still have an accent.
00:25:01.240 So, you know, their argument is language itself is always a mechanism for powerful people to maintain
00:25:10.240 power.
00:25:11.240 So if it's good for the goose, it's kind of good for the gander.
00:25:13.240 And they don't always realize that they're doing it.
00:25:15.240 But then there's all these little kind of mechanisms that like white fragility, white rage.
00:25:19.240 Right?
00:25:20.240 So if unless you sit down and submit entirely, like you are validating white supremacy.
00:25:26.240 I just read this book.
00:25:28.240 There's this great woman, Sarah Rao, S-A-I-R-A-R-A-O.
00:25:33.240 And she's from the Indian descent, Indian subcontinent.
00:25:38.240 And this is her partner, Regina Jackson.
00:25:40.240 And they have these dinners called Race Together. 0.78
00:25:42.240 And you pay them $2,000 and white women come and they just tell them how horrible they are 1.00
00:25:48.240 and how all of them are Nazis. 0.97
00:25:51.240 And, you know, you have to decolonize every space.
00:25:54.240 And it's really exactly almost like the military or cult programming.
00:25:59.240 They just sit them down and berate them.
00:26:01.240 And when the women start crying, it's just like, well, that's just white tears, which 0.99
00:26:05.240 is your defense mechanism to not do the work and maintain your powerful position.
00:26:10.240 So like, and then they were like, it's funny because in this book, at one point, they're
00:26:14.240 like, you know, you betrayed your own gender because 53% of you voted for Donald Trump,
00:26:20.240 who's a non-raguist, blah, blah, blah.
00:26:21.240 But then voting for Hillary Clinton, the Democrats are the same as the Republicans.
00:26:24.240 I don't know what they're supposed to do as a white woman. 1.00
00:26:26.240 Like you don't have any good options.
00:26:28.240 And that's really smart from their perspective, because if they're running the table and no
00:26:32.240 matter where you go, you lose.
00:26:34.240 Well, the house always wins.
00:26:36.240 Right.
00:26:37.240 So what it sounds like is you can't actually win the argument.
00:26:41.240 Because it's not being done in good faith.
00:26:43.240 Because it's not an argument.
00:26:44.240 It's a battle.
00:26:45.240 Right.
00:26:46.240 Yeah.
00:26:47.240 Very well said.
00:26:48.240 That sounded more like intellectual, emotional BDSM than anything.
00:26:50.240 Yes.
00:26:51.240 I actually tweeted that out that if I, I, I, I, I was not joking.
00:26:56.240 I said, I put on my Freudian hat and I said, this is on a sublimated BDSM.
00:27:04.240 Um, um, these women should be reading Fifty Shades of Grey and not Ibram Kendi. 1.00
00:27:08.240 Because it's very clearly that they're getting off on some way of the degradation and the masochism.
00:27:14.240 Right. 0.85
00:27:15.240 It's serving some purpose in their psychology, these white women. 1.00
00:27:18.240 So come back to the argument with me.
00:27:20.240 So what that says to me is the idea of the marketplace of ideas is kind of, that's not going to work here.
00:27:26.240 Well, that's not true.
00:27:27.240 There's lots of, in any marketplace, you're going to have shitty products and you have products that, for example, liquid death is just water.
00:27:33.240 But people buy it because it's got the cool label.
00:27:35.240 It makes no sense, but they pay a lot of money.
00:27:37.240 So a lot of times you want the packaging instead of the product.
00:27:40.240 Yeah.
00:27:41.240 We actually went into a store here and that's one of us, what's liquid death?
00:27:44.240 And they're like, it's just water.
00:27:45.240 Yeah.
00:27:46.240 I was, I, I, the first time I, cause I thought it was some kind of cool beer and I'm looking at, I'm just like, what the, I, I, I'm just like, good Lord.
00:27:53.240 I mean, it would be a good name for water in Venezuela.
00:27:55.240 Why is that?
00:27:56.240 Is it poison there?
00:27:57.240 Where it's completely contaminated.
00:27:58.240 Oh, good Lord.
00:27:59.240 But, um.
00:28:00.240 Thanks for cheering us up.
00:28:01.240 Yeah.
00:28:02.240 Yeah.
00:28:03.240 I thought so.
00:28:04.240 I thought it'd be funny.
00:28:05.240 It's just depressing.
00:28:06.240 But it's, I always, I thought of this.
00:28:07.240 I wrote this, uh, how essentially identity politics is just the weaponization and monetization of white guilt.
00:28:14.240 It, it, in part, yeah.
00:28:16.240 And, and you just think, it just shows how actually the point that we come, that you said originally,
00:28:23.240 emotions are stronger than reason.
00:28:26.240 Yes.
00:28:27.240 It's completely true.
00:28:28.240 Cause you look at all these people or a lot of these people who are afflicted by whatever you want to call it,
00:28:32.240 mind virus ideology.
00:28:34.240 They're all very intelligent.
00:28:36.240 They all went to the best universities. 0.99
00:28:37.240 It's easier to train a smart dog than a dumb one. 0.98
00:28:40.240 You have to have a certain amount of intellectual heft to engage in the mental gymnastics, 1.00
00:28:44.240 to keep a ridiculous philosophy, uh, in your mind. 0.85
00:28:47.240 And it also is a point of pride was a Tertullian, uh, you know, I believe because it's absurd. 1.00
00:28:52.240 I think that's kind of a mischaracterization of his actual views, but the point being, it makes you feel,
00:28:56.240 it's kind of a, any kind of mystery religion where you initiate into the faith and you understand things that the normies regard as absurd.
00:29:04.240 You know, that is something that is a point of pride, not a point of shame.
00:29:07.240 You have access to secret knowledge or hidden.
00:29:09.240 Yes. 0.97
00:29:10.240 And you understand things that everyone else could never understand because to them would be ridiculous. 0.90
00:29:14.240 Right.
00:29:15.240 So it's a status thing.
00:29:16.240 So on the one hand, that sounds pretty bad.
00:29:19.240 On the other hand, you think we've gone past peak woke now.
00:29:22.240 Yes.
00:29:23.240 Uh, I can prove that we've gone past peak woke.
00:29:26.240 Like, okay.
00:29:27.240 Again, I'm, I'm, I'm getting triggered cause I'm a piece, I'm appreciating the, the, the reaction.
00:29:32.240 If, when you say something is not as bad as it was before they hear, oh, it's not a problem anymore.
00:29:39.240 Right.
00:29:40.240 Right.
00:29:41.240 So it's like, you know, like I had cancer now, the flu.
00:29:43.240 Oh, so you're saying the flu's fine.
00:29:44.240 No, I'm just there.
00:29:47.240 Peak woke is, is past.
00:29:49.240 I'm not saying woke's not a problem. 1.00
00:29:51.240 I'm not saying cancer culture is not real.
00:29:53.240 I'm not saying this is okay.
00:29:54.240 I'm not saying we should.
00:29:55.240 Can I interrupt you there?
00:29:56.240 Do you know what, what pisses me off about the world that we live in is that whenever
00:30:00.240 you want to say something, obviously, uh, you, you know, whenever we want to say something 0.58
00:30:06.240 now we have to do all these fucking 50 caveats, whichever side is going to get triggered by 0.92
00:30:11.240 what you're saying. 0.99
00:30:12.240 Because the average human mind is a series of mouse traps and those mouse traps are triggered
00:30:17.240 when they hear certain phrases.
00:30:19.240 Yes.
00:30:20.240 So what you know perfectly well, there's certain phrases and certain, uh, constructions that
00:30:26.240 people have preloaded speeches and you know what those speeches are going to be.
00:30:29.240 So I think people who work, who have the kind of work that we do and travel in the circles
00:30:34.240 that we do, we know exactly what certain things will trigger certain specific mindless reactions.
00:30:39.240 Yeah.
00:30:40.240 But anyway, peak woke, what your work is still a problem, but you, I mean, just to explain
00:30:46.240 for those people who might get triggered.
00:30:48.240 The idea of peak woke is, you know, workness gets worse, worse, worse, and worse.
00:30:52.240 You get to the point where it's at its maximum and we are now on the downslope in your opinion.
00:30:57.240 I don't know if it was at its maximum, but it could have gotten worse.
00:31:01.240 But I'm saying it's not as bad in current year as it was two or three years ago.
00:31:06.240 And I can demonstrate this easily because there were many people, there's a, I can give you
00:31:12.240 one personal example.
00:31:13.240 I personally helped get Roseanne Barr back on Twitter.
00:31:16.240 Roseanne Barr was canceled.
00:31:18.240 They literally canceled her show.
00:31:20.240 They killed off her character.
00:31:21.240 She's been declared a racist. 1.00
00:31:24.240 She's been read out of polite society.
00:31:26.240 She's got a successful podcast.
00:31:28.240 She's back on Twitter.
00:31:30.240 Companies are advertising with her.
00:31:32.240 They did not succeed in canceling her.
00:31:34.240 There's lots of other people who were just vanished.
00:31:37.240 And the whole point of cancel culture isn't that like just you're fired from your job.
00:31:42.240 It used to be this person is read out of polite society.
00:31:46.240 You can, they're radioactive.
00:31:48.240 You can't engage with them.
00:31:49.240 Paula Deen is back on YouTube.
00:31:50.240 Kurt Metzger, a comedian buddy of mine, had this great bit because he did the research
00:31:55.240 about Paula Deen because she got her life ruined because I think it was a court filing. 1.00
00:32:00.240 She acknowledged that she had used a racial slur, right, at one point in the past.
00:32:04.240 And Kurt did the homework and he goes, what happened was like in the 70s or 80s, she was
00:32:09.240 a bank clerk and she was like robbed at gunpoint. 1.00
00:32:12.240 And that's when she used like the N-word, right?
00:32:14.240 And Kurt goes, they should build a statue to her.
00:32:17.240 This is the most progressive old Southern white lady ever because she had to be traumatized 1.00
00:32:23.240 into saying this.
00:32:24.240 He goes, they should build a statue and bring kids around and the statue should say she only 0.99
00:32:27.240 said it once.
00:32:28.240 But because she admitted this, her life was ruined.
00:32:31.240 But now she's back.
00:32:32.240 It's not as back as what she was before.
00:32:34.240 And that may be not a good example in that regard.
00:32:36.240 But there's lots of people.
00:32:38.240 Trump is a good example.
00:32:40.240 Like even 2015, 2016. 0.96
00:32:42.240 This person's evil. 0.61
00:32:43.240 Literally Hitler. 0.69
00:32:44.240 The cover of the Daily News had him.
00:32:46.240 It said antichrist.
00:32:47.240 Like where do you go from there?
00:32:49.240 There's lots of people who, you know, he's back on, he has access to Twitter and so on.
00:32:54.240 And YouTube and other agencies are now admitting, okay, we're not going to be as heavy on the
00:33:00.240 disinformation because you don't need a majority, you just need an alternative. 0.98
00:33:03.240 And having Elon, having Twitter and having a space where this shit's not going to fly, 0.96
00:33:08.240 right away you don't have that monopolistic or oligarchy where you have like four or five agencies 0.98
00:33:13.240 controlling the whole market.
00:33:14.240 And the rest of them were like, all right, there's no point in us putting in these resources
00:33:17.240 because it's not going to accomplish our goal of having this kind of hegemonic control over
00:33:22.240 the microphone.
00:33:23.240 And what happened with Roseanne?
00:33:24.240 Tell everybody how that went down.
00:33:26.240 Well, she was tweeting about Valerie Jarrett, who was an advisor to President Obama,
00:33:32.240 who was born in Iran, who is passing.
00:33:34.240 You know, she's African-American. 1.00
00:33:37.240 And Roseanne had this tweet about the Iran deal.
00:33:39.240 She goes, Planet of the Apes and Muslim Brotherhood had a kid equal, had a baby, 1.00
00:33:43.240 equals Valerie Jarrett. 0.98
00:33:45.240 And Roseanne's like, oh, you're calling a black woman an ape and so on and so forth. 1.00
00:33:50.240 And, you know, this is someone who's a lifelong leftist who fought very hard for, you know,
00:33:55.240 black rights, civil rights, and was known for this.
00:33:57.240 But on her show, the character became a Trump supporter. 0.87
00:34:00.240 So, and one of her writers even explicitly said, this show's humanizing Trump supporters.
00:34:06.240 Right.
00:34:07.240 So this was something that had to be stopped.
00:34:10.240 So, you know, they canceled her within minutes.
00:34:13.240 The rest of the cast threw her under the bus. 0.53
00:34:16.240 People who had their homes because of her, you know, who knew her for many years.
00:34:19.240 She's lived, she lives here now.
00:34:21.240 I've become friends with her, which is one of the greatest things ever to talk to, like,
00:34:25.240 Roseanne Barr and hear her do that laugh. 1.00
00:34:28.240 Was her show as popular in the UK as it was here?
00:34:30.240 Yes.
00:34:31.240 Yeah, it was.
00:34:32.240 It was.
00:34:33.240 It was put on kind of like a 6pm slot, but it was still a huge show.
00:34:36.240 Yeah.
00:34:37.240 And then she had the Theo Von incident as well.
00:34:39.240 That was my fault.
00:34:40.240 I'm not kidding.
00:34:42.240 So when I did my book, The New Right, I had never encountered literal Nazis before.
00:34:47.240 Okay.
00:34:48.240 And when I, or Holocaust deniers.
00:34:51.240 And what I learned is that there are very few Holocaust deniers.
00:34:56.240 The Holocaust deniers are people who say the numbers are exaggerated.
00:34:59.240 But I was like, wait, wait, wait.
00:35:01.240 You're saying like only like 200,000 people died, including many children.
00:35:06.240 And like, I'm like, wait, what?
00:35:09.240 I thought like, okay, if they're going to say no one died, that makes more sense to me ethically
00:35:13.240 or emotionally than like the numbers are exaggerated and like lots and lots.
00:35:16.240 There was only 2 million.
00:35:17.240 I mean, it's really crazy.
00:35:19.240 Who hasn't done that?
00:35:20.240 Don't stop whining.
00:35:21.240 Get on with it.
00:35:22.240 Who hasn't been there?
00:35:23.240 So when I talked to them, what was fascinating is that they thought that the Holocaust never
00:35:28.240 happened, but should have, right?
00:35:30.240 And everyone's going to take that clip now and ruin my life.
00:35:33.240 She thought she is very Jewish.
00:35:35.240 She identifies as a rabbi and she's like, well, I never said I was a good one. 1.00
00:35:39.240 So she's on Theo Von's show talking about things that are kind of, you're not allowed
00:35:44.240 to say.
00:35:45.240 Yeah, Joe Biden didn't get a, Joe Biden didn't get 81 million votes and six million Jews didn't 0.70
00:35:50.240 die in the Holocaust, but they should. 1.00
00:35:51.240 And they took that clip and they, Roseanne Barr Holocaust denier.
00:35:55.240 And it was insane to me to watch how quickly it got, thank God for Twitter, because the
00:36:01.240 community notes, which is a feature for people who don't know on Twitter, is if someone posts
00:36:05.240 something disingenuous, the community can add a note to it to provide context.
00:36:09.240 And immediately the community notes said, this is part of, she's being sarcastic.
00:36:14.240 Here's the full clip.
00:36:15.240 This is a discussion of things that you are not allowed to say on social media and to equate
00:36:20.240 questioning an election with questioning the Holocaust.
00:36:22.240 You know, it's also a complete intellectual dishonest, but it didn't take.
00:36:27.240 Whereas a few years ago, this would have absolutely wrecked her.
00:36:31.240 Do you know when in the UK, when I think we reach peak woke is there was a two time male 0.98
00:36:37.240 rapist called Adam Graham in Scotland.
00:36:40.240 And the moment he got convicted, he descend, he developed a prison onset gender dysphoria.
00:36:47.240 I would do that.
00:36:48.240 Yeah.
00:36:49.240 And then he got put in a female prison. 0.83
00:36:51.240 And then there was understandably uproar because you know, he, she is now a woman and
00:36:57.240 you're putting this two time male rapist in prison.
00:37:01.240 And then there was a very famous interview with the Scottish first minister at the time,
00:37:05.240 Nicola Sturgeon.
00:37:06.240 Oh, I love her.
00:37:07.240 She, she's also trans basically. 1.00
00:37:09.240 I mean, just throw that haircut, sweetheart. 1.00
00:37:11.240 Yeah, exactly.
00:37:12.240 Trans mixed with a potato. 1.00
00:37:13.240 But, um, I thought that was Irish. 0.82
00:37:15.240 No, she does look like a potato. 1.00
00:37:17.240 But then they were saying to her, well, trans women, women. 0.93
00:37:20.240 And she went, yes, yes.
00:37:21.240 And he went, well, what about Isla Bryson?
00:37:23.240 And well, yeah, but Isla Bryson's not a woman. 0.99
00:37:25.240 So it goes, oh, so in the context of a prison, then trans women aren't women. 0.98
00:37:29.240 She went, yes, but, but.
00:37:31.240 Trans women are women, but in the prison context, there is no automatic right for a trans woman.
00:37:36.240 So there are contexts where a trans woman is not a woman.
00:37:38.240 No, there is, there is circumstances in which a trans woman will be housed in the male prison estate.
00:37:46.240 Is there any context in which a woman born as a woman will be housed in the male estate?
00:37:50.240 Look, we're talking here about trans women. 0.85
00:37:51.240 And I'm now asking about women born as women.
00:37:53.240 I don't think there are circumstances there, but.
00:37:56.240 So it's different for trans women.
00:37:57.240 Well, yes.
00:37:58.240 And I'm not.
00:37:59.240 So they're not equal.
00:38:00.240 That is not.
00:38:01.240 There is a risk assessment process done for trans women that takes account of the nature of the crime. 1.00
00:38:08.240 Clearly, significant concern arises out of sexual crime and whether it's appropriate for them to be in a female prison or a male prison. 0.94
00:38:16.240 And you could see it slowly crumble in her brain.
00:38:21.240 And then there was this other beauty.
00:38:22.240 I got it.
00:38:23.240 Was it crumbling in her brain or was it crumbling?
00:38:25.240 Like, how do I weasel my way out of this? 0.75
00:38:27.240 I wonder.
00:38:28.240 I actually genuinely wonder because I do think that I have seen this happen with people, particularly when I'm debating them or whatever, where you can see that glimmer of like, oh, what I'm saying doesn't make any sense.
00:38:44.240 Suddenly it sort of starts to click.
00:38:47.240 I remember I was talking to my college roommate about discrimination laws and I said in Las Vegas or in Nevada, maybe not Las Vegas, prostitution is legal or decriminalized.
00:38:58.240 I don't remember exactly. 0.96
00:38:59.240 And I said, what if you had a woman who was racist, escort or prostitute, and she wouldn't want to have sex with black people, would legally you force her to? 0.99
00:39:07.240 And he's like, oh, I have to think about that. 0.97
00:39:09.240 I'm just like, okay, like, okay, I'm out, you know, but it's just, it's amazing when people are in, it's almost worse when they're logically consistent.
00:39:16.240 Cause then it's like, do you not even hear where you're in?
00:39:18.240 Cause sometimes, you know, if you follow your logic and you end up somewhere in the wrong place, you're like, oh, I need to check my work.
00:39:25.240 Cause this conclusion is something I'm not comfortable with.
00:39:28.240 But when you have this kind of, you know, thinking, they just bite the bullet and that's what makes it scary.
00:39:34.240 Yeah, indeed.
00:39:35.240 And, but, and then there was question time, which is our most prestigious debate program.
00:39:41.240 They were talking about this particular case and a former guest of the show, Ella Whelan said to a member of the Scottish parliament, member of the SNP, the ruling party.
00:39:52.240 They went, is Ella Bryson a man or a woman?
00:39:57.240 And she went, and she went, is Ella Bryson a man or a woman? 1.00
00:40:03.240 And then the Scottish MP responded with the words, they're a rapist. 0.99
00:40:08.240 And you just heard this groan from the audience. 1.00
00:40:12.240 Wow.
00:40:13.240 I think most people at home will have noticed that you kept saying the individual.
00:40:18.240 But I mean, you have to beg the question, is Adam Graham, the double rapist, a man?
00:40:24.240 Who now calls himself Ella Bryson.
00:40:26.240 Fine, if that's what he wants to do.
00:40:28.240 A man or a woman. 0.95
00:40:30.240 Because the, the question at hand is not whether this rapist should serve a sentence for rape.
00:40:36.240 It's whether this individual is a man or a woman, and therefore which prison he or she goes into.
00:40:43.240 So what is your answer?
00:40:45.240 Is this individual a man or a woman?
00:40:47.240 I'm sorry. 0.78
00:40:48.240 This individual is a rape. 0.63
00:40:49.240 No, no, no. 1.00
00:40:50.240 We know that.
00:40:51.240 We know that.
00:40:52.240 We know that.
00:40:53.240 I want to know.
00:40:54.240 I want to know.
00:40:55.240 Is this individual a man or a woman?
00:40:57.240 Ella, can you let me talk, please?
00:40:58.240 The First Minister was asked this question today at First Minister's Question Time.
00:41:00.240 She gave the response.
00:41:01.240 Very confusing answer.
00:41:02.240 If you'll let me speak.
00:41:04.240 She gave the response that she didn't know enough about the individual in question.
00:41:07.240 I would say likewise.
00:41:09.240 But I think the most important thing in this case.
00:41:11.240 We have to be very careful because we trust the Scottish Prison Service to make these judgments on behalf of Scottish ministers.
00:41:16.240 That is their role.
00:41:17.240 That is their job.
00:41:18.240 And it's also worth saying to the point in relation to reviews.
00:41:21.240 There are two reviews underway at the moment in Scotland.
00:41:24.240 One in relation to the case that was previously discussed.
00:41:26.240 You haven't answered the question.
00:41:27.240 And that will report tomorrow.
00:41:28.240 And the second is being undertaken by the Scottish Prison Service and will report directly to Scottish ministers.
00:41:32.240 It is absolutely essential.
00:41:34.240 We trust the Prison Service to make these decisions.
00:41:36.240 You haven't answered the question.
00:41:37.240 To keep our prison population safe.
00:41:39.240 I have answered the question.
00:41:40.240 No, you haven't.
00:41:41.240 You haven't.
00:41:42.240 But can I just say, Fiona, if I can cut...
00:41:45.240 The reason why I think this is...
00:41:46.240 Shall we give Jenny one more chance to answer the question?
00:41:48.240 Carry on.
00:41:49.240 I'd love to hear your answer.
00:41:50.240 I'd love to hear your answer.
00:41:51.240 I really would. 1.00
00:41:52.240 This individual is a rapist. 1.00
00:41:54.240 That is the most important thing. 0.99
00:41:56.240 Now, listen, the reason why this is such an important question is because, you know, as Kelly said, this is not...
00:42:02.240 This is a discussion that is not just about the situation of prisons or rape crisis centres, which are very important places that are sex-based for a reason.
00:42:11.240 And there's a kind of...
00:42:12.240 It's remarkable to me that politicians in this country, in Scotland and Wales and in England seem to have given up on the, you know, belief in reality that sex is real and that it's irrefutable.
00:42:27.240 It's really important because if politicians in a government cannot deal in reality and in truth and deal with facts that are based on the things that we all understand, then why would you have any belief in anything they say?
00:42:48.240 Why would you have any belief in the justice system?
00:42:51.240 Because the one kind of group that we haven't mentioned so far is women and it's women who are being made to pay for it. 1.00
00:43:01.240 But it comes back to your point, which is they use language to manipulate.
00:43:04.240 And if you use language to manipulate, then the truth isn't real, right?
00:43:08.240 There is no truth.
00:43:09.240 Truth is not relevant.
00:43:11.240 So it's real, but it's not relevant.
00:43:12.240 Right.
00:43:14.240 Because it's unpalatable.
00:43:16.240 No, no, it's because it's not the way the conversation is being had.
00:43:19.240 Yeah.
00:43:20.240 It's not about the truth.
00:43:21.240 It's about who wins the power game.
00:43:22.240 Yeah.
00:43:23.240 And you see this in social media at the time.
00:43:24.240 People are interested in seeking, like people try to argue with you.
00:43:26.240 They're not looking for, you know, let's kind of have this, you know, Socratic debate or, you know, this, not Socratic, but just like have a debate and we'll come out of it some, you know, some version of the truth.
00:43:36.240 It's more like they just want to one up you or play gotcha.
00:43:39.240 Yeah.
00:43:40.240 Yeah, exactly.
00:43:41.240 So that all said, we're past peak woke.
00:43:45.240 What does that mean for where we're going?
00:43:47.240 I am very hopeful for the future of many aspects of the West.
00:43:54.240 Canada, I think, is in the short or medium term hopeless, but I would be giddy to be proven wrong.
00:44:05.240 Because a lot of times it's easier to come back to the light when it's really, really dark.
00:44:10.240 You know, like sometimes the relationships, if the husband is only a little abusive, you stick it out for like a very long time because you could tolerate it.
00:44:17.240 But then like once he gives you a black eye, in many cases, like, all right, now it's a wrap.
00:44:21.240 So it's like boiling the frog.
00:44:23.240 It's like people are comfortable with a certain amount, but maybe there's a point where it's a breaking point.
00:44:27.240 So maybe Canada actually is more hopeful than the States, although my money would be on the States.
00:44:32.240 Go ahead.
00:44:33.240 No, I was going to say, I am complete.
00:44:35.240 I'm in agreement with you.
00:44:36.240 There is a caveat in that I think if Trump gets reelected, it's going to flare up again.
00:44:41.240 What will flare up?
00:44:42.240 The wokeness.
00:44:44.240 I don't think so.
00:44:46.240 And here's why.
00:44:47.240 I think the anti-Trumpism will obviously flare up to an enormous extent.
00:44:51.240 But I think the wokeness, there's wokeness in the activist class and there's wokeness in the elite.
00:44:58.240 Right.
00:44:59.240 And the elite only care about wokeness insofar as it maintains and controls their power.
00:45:02.240 Right.
00:45:03.240 Back in 2015, 16, you could not stop from hearing in the States about refugees welcome.
00:45:11.240 We need more Muslim immigration.
00:45:13.240 That Linda Sarsour was this Greta Thunberg figure that they just brought her out every five minutes. 1.00
00:45:18.240 And she's the spokesperson for this whole movement.
00:45:21.240 That's completely vanished and completely gone away.
00:45:24.240 You literally never hear them talk about this.
00:45:26.240 This was a total victory by the right.
00:45:28.240 But since so many people on the right here regard themselves as perpetual victims
00:45:32.240 and just only want to complain about whatever the leftists are talking about right now,
00:45:36.240 and they live in a perpetual present, they've completely forgotten that this was a battle they've totally won.
00:45:41.240 So the wokeness is blowing up in their faces. 0.97
00:45:45.240 Because Karen, who's the swing voter in America, the suburban mom, 0.99
00:45:50.240 when Karen is seeing what's going on with these schools, she's going right, like hard right.
00:45:55.240 So they'll be more than happy to throw this over the side of the boat if it doesn't serve their purposes.
00:46:01.240 Now, the activists won't be happy.
00:46:03.240 But I don't know if you guys are aware of this.
00:46:05.240 Biden and Kamala Harris get elected.
00:46:07.240 And the heads of BLM were publicly complaining that they wouldn't take their calls.
00:46:11.240 So they didn't even have them like some kind of like, oh, yeah, go meet with Kamala Harris.
00:46:15.240 We'll have beers, photo op.
00:46:16.240 They wouldn't even bother returning their calls.
00:46:18.240 And this is public.
00:46:19.240 So I think people underestimate because so much of social media and political media is just about like right versus left.
00:46:26.240 How little behind the scenes to many people this actually matters and how much of it's a smokescreen.
00:46:32.240 That's very interesting.
00:46:34.240 And it was always going to be.
00:46:35.240 Once you started to involve people's kids in this, there was only ever going to be one.
00:46:39.240 I mean, I said this from day one.
00:46:40.240 The trans thing will be what breaks this because you start messing with people's kids. 1.00
00:46:44.240 I mean, I told you a story about a fan of our show over dinner who's kind of a default liberal.
00:46:51.240 I don't think particularly interested in politics, but a daughter comes home from school one day, very expensive school in New York.
00:46:57.240 And I was like, mommy, am I a girl?
00:46:59.240 Am I a boy rather?
00:47:00.240 And she goes, why?
00:47:01.240 And she goes, well, I play soccer, don't I?
00:47:04.240 And once you get to that point.
00:47:06.240 I said, no, you're a foreigner. 1.00
00:47:08.240 Once you get to that point, you're going to you're going to lose a lot of people.
00:47:13.240 I'm not trying to be a contrarian, but I do want to.
00:47:16.240 I think this is just an important point to the audience.
00:47:18.240 I think people underestimate to what extent privileged, especially white women, are willing to sacrifice their children for the altar of status.
00:47:29.240 And for them, having a trans kid is like winning the lottery, right? 1.00
00:47:33.240 And you laugh, but it's really the case.
00:47:35.240 It's very disturbing.
00:47:37.240 They're the only ones bringing their kids to drag shows because for these affluent white female liberals, 1.00
00:47:43.240 awfuls, a man in makeup is like the second coming. 1.00
00:47:46.240 And, you know, they're showing dad or their husband or whoever how enlightened they are,
00:47:50.240 because this is what corporate media corporate media tells them.
00:47:53.240 So they can't wait to bring their kids and, you know, show how, you know, with the program they are.
00:47:58.240 So they are a menace.
00:48:00.240 And this, in my opinion, is Munchausen's by proxy.
00:48:04.240 You know, they're torturing their kids for the sake of status and accolades.
00:48:08.240 Yeah.
00:48:09.240 Well, yeah.
00:48:10.240 But they are minorities is my point. 0.97
00:48:12.240 Sorry, France, just to finish.
00:48:13.240 Sure.
00:48:14.240 But it's, it's, it's, they're powerful. 0.99
00:48:15.240 No, no, it's fucking awful. 0.97
00:48:16.240 But what they are doing is red pilling a hell of a lot of normies. 0.99
00:48:21.240 And it's also red pilling to the extent that you realize this isn't a conversation, right?
00:48:26.240 Like if I sat down with you and we're friends and I start talking to you about how you're going to raise your kid,
00:48:32.240 this isn't a conversation.
00:48:33.240 It's, it's all, if it doesn't get to violence, like you think you think of violence, it's,
00:48:37.240 your first reaction is like, what are you even talking?
00:48:39.240 Like, what the hell are you talking about?
00:48:40.240 Like, this is crossing a line that is so sacred. 1.00
00:48:43.240 It's, it's ridiculous.
00:48:44.240 So I think that is healthy in the realization that this is not a discussion.
00:48:50.240 You know, when you're, when you're, you can discuss like marginal tax rates, you know,
00:48:55.240 social safety and so on and so forth.
00:48:57.240 When there's such an asymmetry in the consequence of discussion, very quickly it's like,
00:49:02.240 this isn't something that could just be left to the hopes that I win a debate.
00:49:05.240 Because maybe I'm in articulate or so on and so forth.
00:49:07.240 And maybe I'm, you know, don't have the, the, the class or the money to back up my position.
00:49:12.240 But if you're even risking my kid, my only reaction isn't to continue the conversation.
00:49:18.240 My reaction is I have to get my kid away from you.
00:49:20.240 Yeah.
00:49:21.240 Yeah, of course.
00:49:22.240 And, and you see some of these big Hollywood actresses and they've got, you know, two trans 1.00
00:49:28.240 kids and you go, there is something deeply amiss here, deeply amiss.
00:49:33.240 Yeah.
00:49:34.240 And it's becomes a status symbol.
00:49:36.240 And you think to yourself, this is a society that has lost its moral compass.
00:49:41.240 Well, the other thing that is never discussed in this, this context, which I think is very
00:49:47.240 important is it is very widely understood that if a woman is pregnant or going through menopause,
00:49:54.240 right?
00:49:55.240 These are hormonal changes.
00:49:56.240 It affects the psychology.
00:49:58.240 No one argues it.
00:49:59.240 Ask any female, ask who's pregnant, who've gone through menopause.
00:50:02.240 They'll laugh about it.
00:50:03.240 It's like, oh my God, one day I'm crying one day, you know, and it's part of the human condition.
00:50:07.240 Males who take testosterone, steroids, this is heightened aggression, muscle mass, all 1.00
00:50:12.240 these other things that happened.
00:50:13.240 The idea that, okay, I'm a male or female, it doesn't have to be a kid and I'm going to
00:50:19.240 take hormones and it's only going to have positive mental consequences is insane. 0.71
00:50:24.240 Because again, taking out the trans issue, when human beings' hormones are changed, it affects 0.54
00:50:32.240 behavior.
00:50:33.240 Hormones are how animals and humans are animals regulate behavior in many regards.
00:50:37.240 But this is just completely not talked about.
00:50:40.240 The focus is on the surgery, but it's like if you take these pills or these injections,
00:50:44.240 it's going to screw with your head.
00:50:46.240 So this whole idea that like, imagine saying, what percent of pregnant women have suicidal
00:50:54.240 ideation?
00:50:55.240 I don't know what that number is, but it's not going to be the same as non-pregnant women. 1.00
00:51:00.240 They're going to have some sort of disorder thinking.
00:51:02.240 Maybe it's not suicidal ideation, maybe it's depression, maybe it's anxiety.
00:51:05.240 Postpartum is obviously very much a real thing.
00:51:07.240 And I'm sure hormones have a part to play in that. 1.00
00:51:09.240 But this effect of hormones and the psychology no one talks about, and it's extremely germane
00:51:15.240 to the issue at hand.
00:51:16.240 Yeah.
00:51:17.240 And also, the thing that I really worry about, Michael, is this.
00:51:22.240 If we are correct and we're past Pete Woke, brilliant.
00:51:25.240 That is something to celebrate.
00:51:28.240 What I worry about now is the backlash.
00:51:30.240 Because there's a lot of people who are very, very angry.
00:51:33.240 Yeah, we talked about this, yeah.
00:51:35.240 And they don't want justice.
00:51:37.240 They want revenge.
00:51:38.240 Oh, yeah.
00:51:39.240 I want revenge.
00:51:40.240 Oh, no, no, no.
00:51:41.240 I thought you meant like the growing homophobia.
00:51:43.240 Yeah, yeah.
00:51:44.240 But this is what I mean.
00:51:45.240 This is what I mean.
00:51:46.240 This is going, well, you know, you liberals, you wanted gay marriage. 0.92
00:51:50.240 This is where it's ended up.
00:51:52.240 So now, I'm going to get mine.
00:51:55.240 Yeah.
00:51:56.240 It's, I remember, I've talked about this somewhat recently.
00:51:59.240 I remember, I only recently was reminded of what New York City was like in the 80s when
00:52:04.240 the AIDS crisis was decimating largely, at first, in the gay artistic community.
00:52:10.240 And there was this sense of kind of glee.
00:52:13.240 And like, you asked for it.
00:52:14.240 And one of the things I was, I just watched this great miniseries called Angels in America,
00:52:19.240 which was very award-winning and-
00:52:21.240 Tony Kushner, isn't it?
00:52:22.240 Yes.
00:52:23.240 And had many accolades.
00:52:25.240 And there was this, and the thing that disturbed me the most, or not the most, but was knowing
00:52:30.240 that many of these young men, because what happens is, January, you have a cough and you're
00:52:35.240 diagnosed.
00:52:36.240 December, you're dead, right?
00:52:38.240 And you're not just dead overnight.
00:52:39.240 You go senile first, and you're covered in Karposi's sarcoma, which are these little
00:52:44.240 spots.
00:52:45.240 It's very clear who has it towards the end.
00:52:47.240 And then your friends are all getting it.
00:52:49.240 And it's just this kind of sense of paranoia.
00:52:51.240 Many of these men went to their graves thinking this was God's punishment, because why are
00:52:57.240 only me and my community getting this?
00:52:59.240 You know what I mean?
00:53:00.240 We're very much being singled out.
00:53:02.240 And it was only when kids started getting it through blood transfusions, when bisexual 1.00
00:53:07.240 men were spreading it to women, then it became kind of more of like our problem instead of
00:53:12.240 their problem.
00:53:13.240 But that sort of thinking is coming back.
00:53:18.240 And I don't know if it's inevitable, but if you have this intersectionality and this
00:53:23.240 insistence that trans and gay and bisexual and lesbian, it's all one package deal.
00:53:30.240 Well, for most people who are binary thinkers, well, if you're forcing me to choose between
00:53:34.240 the kid stuff and everything else and hating it all, well, kid stuff's not an option, so
00:53:39.240 I'm going with the hatred.
00:53:40.240 Yeah.
00:53:41.240 So any kind of nuance in this regard is lost.
00:53:45.240 And I think a lot of people saw this coming and it's very disheartening to say the least.
00:53:52.240 And I talked to quite a few gay men because they watch the show and they said there's now
00:53:56.240 a real split within the gay community.
00:53:59.240 I hate that term, but let's use it for between older gay men and younger gay men, because there's
00:54:05.240 a lot of older gay men who can see the backlash coming and can see.
00:54:09.240 They remember.
00:54:10.240 Yeah.
00:54:11.240 And they're there going, we're stroking forces here and you need to be aware of what is coming.
00:54:17.240 And because of the younger gays haven't seen it, they've got no idea. 0.66
00:54:20.240 Right, because you're 20, you're 25, your entire world was like seeing pride flags everywhere 0.71
00:54:26.240 and channels dedicated to you and oh my God, you're so fabulous and all this other stuff.
00:54:30.240 Yeah.
00:54:31.240 Whereas, you know, people who are much older, they're like, you know, I remember when I was
00:54:35.240 in high school arguing with my dad because RuPaul wasn't out.
00:54:40.240 And I'm like, you don't know that RuPaul's gay because the logic was gay's bad. 0.95
00:54:43.240 Yeah. 0.76
00:54:44.240 This person's the same with actors and steroids, right?
00:54:46.240 Steroids are bad.
00:54:47.240 This actor is a good person.
00:54:49.240 Therefore, this actor is not on steroids.
00:54:50.240 You know what I mean?
00:54:51.240 It's all these guys who just become jacked overnight.
00:54:53.240 Oh, they're not on steroids.
00:54:54.240 They just have special exercise no one else is doing.
00:54:57.240 So, it's coming back.
00:55:00.240 It's clear.
00:55:01.240 Social media, people say Twitter is not real life.
00:55:03.240 Social media is how you can tell what's going to be in the corporate press and corporate
00:55:06.240 media in five years.
00:55:07.240 I mean, it just feeds.
00:55:08.240 It's the predecessor.
00:55:09.240 So, it's coming down the pike and I don't really know what to say or do about it. 0.99
00:55:15.240 There's also an interesting thing which obviously there's been a big spat between Elon and the
00:55:20.240 ADL about antisemitism.
00:55:21.240 Yeah.
00:55:22.240 And I think it's fair to say that all sorts of, I'm using inverted commas here, but hate
00:55:30.240 speech is more visible now on Twitter.
00:55:34.240 That's because they're doing less moderation and it's probably the price you pay for having
00:55:40.240 less moderation.
00:55:41.240 But it seems to me like that is an issue that's also potentially part of the backlash.
00:55:46.240 How so?
00:55:47.240 I see a lot of people quite openly talking in a way that is...
00:55:53.240 Oh, yeah.
00:55:54.240 I see what you're saying.
00:55:55.240 Yeah, yeah.
00:55:56.240 But I mean, I think the ADL is a very evil organization.
00:55:59.240 No, no.
00:56:00.240 I agree.
00:56:01.240 In this instance, I agree.
00:56:02.240 Yeah, yeah.
00:56:03.240 But just more broadly, I think there's a lot of talk on the right and by the left.
00:56:08.240 I mean, antisemitism is a bipartisan position.
00:56:10.240 Oh, no.
00:56:11.240 Right, no.
00:56:12.240 So, I agree because their perspective, which I don't think they're entirely correct, is
00:56:16.240 if you're forcing me to choose between the ADL and being antisemite, a lot of them are
00:56:20.240 going to choose to be antisemite.
00:56:21.240 Yeah.
00:56:22.240 Because the ADL, in my view, and it's pretty indisputable, are completely disingenuous.
00:56:27.240 High Rate Check, who runs lives of TikTok, is an Orthodox Jewish woman and they tried to 1.00
00:56:31.240 get her canceled in favor of trans rights.
00:56:33.240 So, you're not really fighting for, you know, protecting Jewish people and the right
00:56:37.240 to speak.
00:56:38.240 You just have a hard left gangster mentality. 1.00
00:56:42.240 You're going to pick and shoot. 0.86
00:56:43.240 And how it works is, and I'll be delighted to point out this technique, because once you
00:56:49.240 figure out techniques that corporate journalists use, not only do you see it anywhere, it becomes
00:56:53.240 less efficacious.
00:56:54.240 So, it'll be like, you know, Jeff Smith, who was regarded as a hate monger by independent
00:57:02.240 watchdog groups, and they'll have a hyperlink.
00:57:04.240 And you click on the link, and it's always the ADL or Southern Poverty Law Center.
00:57:08.240 So, they work hand in hand.
00:57:10.240 The ADL and Southern Poverty Law Center label people as radioactive or Klansmen or Nazi.
00:57:16.240 Then the journalist could be like, I'm being objective.
00:57:18.240 This is my source.
00:57:19.240 I'm not saying it.
00:57:20.240 They're saying it.
00:57:21.240 So, they feed off each other like a snake eating its own tail.
00:57:23.240 I'll use the word snake advisedly.
00:57:25.240 And once you see this, every time, I encourage people watching this, click that link.
00:57:29.240 It will invariably be one of these two organizations that are used as a source.
00:57:33.240 I mean, that is so dangerous.
00:57:37.240 That is so dangerous, because the way that we casually fling these words around without...
00:57:42.240 Don't say we.
00:57:43.240 I mean, we as society.
00:57:45.240 But we...
00:57:46.240 There is no society.
00:57:47.240 There is just us.
00:57:48.240 Yeah, yeah.
00:57:49.240 Okay.
00:57:50.240 Point taken.
00:57:51.240 Thank you, Mr. Sachsen.
00:57:52.240 No, but I'm serious that when you use that word we, I'm not in a community with these people.
00:57:56.240 Yeah.
00:57:57.240 Okay.
00:57:58.240 Agreed.
00:57:59.240 Those people throw those words around as if they don't have very, very real meaning.
00:58:04.240 Right.
00:58:05.240 What they've done to the word Nazi is a crime.
00:58:07.240 To decouple Nazism from anti-Semitism is so ahistorical and intellectually dishonest.
00:58:14.240 And also, when you use things like climate denier.
00:58:17.240 Yeah.
00:58:18.240 To piggyback a Holocaust denier.
00:58:20.240 You people have no shame.
00:58:21.240 Yeah.
00:58:22.240 Because again, they don't use language to communicate but to manipulate.
00:58:24.240 And it's also as well, it's, you know, you don't have an understanding of history.
00:58:28.240 You have no understanding.
00:58:29.240 Yeah, they do.
00:58:30.240 They don't care.
00:58:31.240 Don't you get it?
00:58:32.240 They don't care, Francis.
00:58:33.240 But it's also, there's an ignorance tied into it as well.
00:58:36.240 Because all they want to do is it's surface level.
00:58:39.240 A lot of it is...
00:58:40.240 No.
00:58:41.240 All they want you to do.
00:58:42.240 They're trying to manipulate their audience to get them to do what they want.
00:58:46.240 It's not that they don't understand.
00:58:47.240 They don't want you to understand.
00:58:49.240 Don't you get it?
00:58:50.240 They don't think Trump's a Nazi.
00:58:52.240 His daughter converted.
00:58:53.240 That's not compatible with Nazism. 0.85
00:58:55.240 Well, this is what I keep saying.
00:58:56.240 This is what I keep saying, Michael, because it's, it's like, I mean, you're right.
00:59:00.240 I mean, I am persuaded by what you're saying because if, I keep saying this, if you thought
00:59:05.240 Donald Trump was a Nazi, if you actually thought he was Hitler, the day he got elected,
00:59:10.240 you would pick up your rifle. 0.99
00:59:11.240 Of course.
00:59:12.240 And you would take to the streets.
00:59:13.240 Yes.
00:59:14.240 And you would organize to overthrow that government by violence.
00:59:16.240 Yes.
00:59:17.240 And, yes, and brag about it.
00:59:18.240 If you are a moral human being, that is what you would do.
00:59:20.240 Yes.
00:59:21.240 Right?
00:59:22.240 But they don't.
00:59:23.240 And they call people Nazis, but they don't act in relation to them as if they're Nazis.
00:59:27.240 Right.
00:59:28.240 All they do is, it's a, it's a tool.
00:59:31.240 It means our group.
00:59:32.240 It means bad, bad person.
00:59:33.240 Yes.
00:59:34.240 Our group is even better.
00:59:36.240 Yeah.
00:59:37.240 And, and, and the fact that they've done that to that word, which has a very specific and 0.99
00:59:40.240 a very important meaning, it's a fucking crime. 0.99
00:59:42.240 Yeah. 0.99
00:59:43.240 It's a crime.
00:59:44.240 Yes.
00:59:45.240 Yeah.
00:59:46.240 Guillotines.
00:59:47.240 We're on camera.
00:59:48.240 Yeah.
00:59:49.240 There was a lot of guillotine, guillotine talk over dinner.
01:00:01.240 Yeah.
01:00:02.240 There was a lot of guillotine.
01:00:03.240 Hypothetical.
01:00:04.240 But none of guillotine doing.
01:00:05.240 Yeah.
01:00:06.240 Say again?
01:00:07.240 None of guillotine.
01:00:08.240 There was talking, but none of doing.
01:00:09.240 No.
01:00:10.240 By the way, there's a book from the eighties, like a children's book, uh, called how to build
01:00:12.240 your own guillotine.
01:00:13.240 Right?
01:00:14.240 Like a toy model and I bought it and I put a picture and they pulled it from Instagram.
01:00:19.240 Hmm.
01:00:20.240 This is all a metaphorical discussion.
01:00:22.240 Yeah.
01:00:23.240 So Michael, when you say they like, and again, this is because these are new concepts.
01:00:30.240 I mean, this is what I'm trying to figure out as we talk.
01:00:35.240 What percentage of people do you think, who are the people who are manipulating with the
01:00:41.240 express intention of victory?
01:00:44.240 And who, and who are the people who do you think just aren't looking under the metaphorical
01:00:48.240 car bonnet at this stuff and just following blindly?
01:00:51.240 Under the hood.
01:00:52.240 Under the hood.
01:00:53.240 I got you.
01:00:54.240 I got you.
01:00:55.240 I'm an Anglophile.
01:00:56.240 Yeah.
01:00:57.240 Um, it's almost impossible to figure out from, you know, this happens to you guys and
01:01:02.240 me as well.
01:01:03.240 People who see you are your, watch your podcast, read your Twitter, social media, your writing.
01:01:08.240 They think they know you intimately.
01:01:09.240 Yes.
01:01:10.240 It's, it's, and you sometimes, I, I constantly, a great example of this was when you were on
01:01:15.240 my podcast and I was clowning you, trolling you because you didn't know who Dave Smith
01:01:19.240 was.
01:01:20.240 And you were saying he's a nice guy and he's a very close friend of mine.
01:01:22.240 Like, oh God, this guy's terrible and you keep doubling down and I keep clowning him.
01:01:26.240 And it was this great awkward tension.
01:01:28.240 Um, and then when I revealed I'm friends with him, you know, became clear.
01:01:31.240 It was very fun, funny moment.
01:01:33.240 Every so often you get a comment and just like really resonates with you for a long time.
01:01:37.240 One commenter said, they're lying.
01:01:40.240 These guys all hang out together constantly and clearly knew who Dave Smith was, blah,
01:01:43.240 blah, blah.
01:01:44.240 Who are they trying to fool?
01:01:45.240 First of all, you're in England and we're here.
01:01:47.240 So we're not all, Dave's in Jersey.
01:01:48.240 We're not all hanging out.
01:01:49.240 So that's literally physically impossible.
01:01:51.240 But in their head, since podcasters are psychologically a set and you can conceptually think they're
01:01:58.240 all together.
01:01:59.240 Therefore, in real life, they must also be a set together.
01:02:02.240 So therefore, this is this genuine.
01:02:04.240 So weak. 1.00
01:02:05.240 It's not knowing how many of these corporate journalists are just useful idiots. 1.00
01:02:10.240 How many of them, you know, get what's going on. 0.99
01:02:13.240 It's very hard to determine if we're not impossible.
01:02:16.240 Um, but I think the issue is this is systemic.
01:02:19.240 It starts at the universities is promulgated through the corporate press and then reaches
01:02:25.240 politicians.
01:02:26.240 So the politicians are actually even though they're the ones implementing this stuff are
01:02:31.240 in a certain sense, the less least metaphysically evil, because at a certain point, like let's
01:02:36.240 suppose I was a Democrat.
01:02:38.240 Right.
01:02:39.240 Right. 1.00
01:02:40.240 And I thought Trump's an idiot. 1.00
01:02:41.240 I thought this guy had no business in the White House. 1.00
01:02:43.240 You know, he's terrible.
01:02:44.240 But I didn't think there's any room to impeach him over. 1.00
01:02:48.240 It's just one phone call that some moron made. 0.99
01:02:50.240 I don't have that space as a Democratic congressperson because all of my constituents have heard for 1.00
01:02:56.240 years from CNN, Trump Russia, Trump's the devil, Trump's the devil, Trump's the devil. 0.92
01:03:01.240 So it's conservatives, I think, often have it backwards. 0.98
01:03:04.240 It's the universities and then the corporate press that are wagging the politics is downstream
01:03:09.240 of culture.
01:03:10.240 Yes.
01:03:11.240 Right.
01:03:12.240 And I'll just give, let me just quickly.
01:03:14.240 Of course.
01:03:15.240 I had this poll and I'll encourage anyone listening to this to ask themselves the same
01:03:19.240 question.
01:03:20.240 If you had the Supreme Court, right, and sometimes when you give people two bad choices, they,
01:03:24.240 give me some good choices.
01:03:25.240 I'd rather have nine Rand Pauls.
01:03:27.240 Would you rather have nine random Democratic senators or, if you're on the right, or nine
01:03:33.240 members of the New York Times editorial board?
01:03:36.240 And when you put it in those terms, I think it's really clear who would be much more reasonable,
01:03:40.240 who would be looking at the law and who would be more of a jihadi without the testosterone.
01:03:45.240 One of the things that, one of the things that used to bother me and perhaps still doesn't, 0.72
01:03:54.240 what I'm hearing out of you is kind of taking me out of that space is I hate hypocrisy. 0.88
01:03:59.240 Sure. 0.57
01:04:00.240 And all of us are hypocrites to some extent because we're all human and no one is perfectly 0.68
01:04:04.240 logically consistent, blah, blah, blah.
01:04:06.240 However, I think election interference is wrong.
01:04:10.240 I think election denial is wrong.
01:04:12.240 I thought that in 2016 when Hillary called Donald Trump an illegitimate president and when the
01:04:18.240 mainstream media were pushing the idea of Russia collusion, et cetera.
01:04:21.240 And I thought it in 2020, right?
01:04:23.240 But for some reason, most people don't see that.
01:04:28.240 And I still can't quite understand why.
01:04:32.240 Well, there's no, because there's no such thing as a legitimate election.
01:04:36.240 Because if I want you to be my accountant and I want you to be my doctor, somehow if 100 million
01:04:44.240 people agree with me, I get it unless there's 150 million people who disagree.
01:04:48.240 It makes no sense.
01:04:49.240 So, if you're going in and saying, I want this person to be my president, the fact that it should be contingent
01:04:54.240 on a popularity contest makes no sense.
01:04:57.240 That's a different point.
01:04:58.240 That's a different point.
01:04:59.240 One more sentence though.
01:05:00.240 And it's an idea that's so absurd that the only reason we even take it seriously as a hypothesis
01:05:04.240 is that we're trained to the contrary since kindergarten.
01:05:06.240 Go ahead.
01:05:07.240 Fine.
01:05:08.240 But you're answering a different point.
01:05:09.240 I know you're not a fan of the way that the system works, right?
01:05:12.240 My point is something else, which is people apply different standards to their own.
01:05:19.240 I mean, I'm saying it as if it's some kind of big revelation.
01:05:22.240 It's the most obvious thing in the world.
01:05:23.240 People apply a different standard to their own tribe versus the our group.
01:05:27.240 And they're correct to do so.
01:05:28.240 Why is that?
01:05:29.240 Because I, you can make jokes about me and say mean things to me and pat me on the, and
01:05:37.240 you know what I mean, and be condescending to me because we're pals.
01:05:40.240 Some rando comes up to me and talks to me like that. 0.99
01:05:42.240 Who the hell are you? 0.98
01:05:43.240 So of course we have different standards for our people as opposed to the outsiders. 1.00
01:05:46.240 No, but that's not what I mean.
01:05:48.240 I think of it as a, as a sporting game, right?
01:05:51.240 I mean.
01:05:52.240 It's a war.
01:05:53.240 Because if you lose a baseball game, who cares?
01:05:57.240 But for, for this system to work, it has to be treated on a long term.
01:06:03.240 We play an iterative game where you lose this one.
01:06:07.240 I accept it.
01:06:08.240 You accept it.
01:06:09.240 Then I lose the next one.
01:06:10.240 We both accept it.
01:06:11.240 And then it works.
01:06:13.240 No, it doesn't work.
01:06:15.240 It just, one side just dominates the other.
01:06:18.240 So it works for the winners.
01:06:20.240 Why does one side dominate the other?
01:06:22.240 Because if you have an election and you have 60%, I have 40%, I don't have anything.
01:06:27.240 Right.
01:06:28.240 But if you look at the history of the US or the UK, the left and right kind of, they
01:06:32.240 switch over time.
01:06:33.240 Democrats had, first of all, Democrats and Republicans don't always port to right and
01:06:37.240 left because you'll have the right-wing Democrats.
01:06:39.240 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:06:40.240 The problems.
01:06:41.240 Democrats in the US had Congress for 40 years.
01:06:43.240 They had it from 1954 through 1994.
01:06:48.240 It's just, it did not switch at all.
01:06:51.240 The presidency did switch back and forth.
01:06:54.240 But from FDR through Lyndon Johnson, the only Republican there was Eisenhower and he was
01:06:59.240 basically indisputably a leftist.
01:07:01.240 There's nothing particularly conservative that he did whatsoever.
01:07:03.240 So it's not at all, it's only recently that there's been any kind of right of center renaissance
01:07:08.240 on the national level in terms of Congress, relatively recently since the 90s.
01:07:13.240 So it's not, it's not, it's different for you guys with the parliamentary system because
01:07:17.240 it's a binary choice.
01:07:18.240 You're going to have the Tories then.
01:07:19.240 But, and I will bring up again, Mrs. Thatcher, because the whole point in the 70s was you
01:07:24.240 had the politics of consensus.
01:07:25.240 So you had, you know, Ted Heath from the Tories and then you have, was it Kinnock?
01:07:31.240 Kinnock was later.
01:07:33.240 Kinnock was later.
01:07:34.240 Who was before Kinnock?
01:07:35.240 Alistair someone?
01:07:36.240 No.
01:07:37.240 I don't remember who it was.
01:07:38.240 Whatever.
01:07:39.240 You had the Labour guy and they just had what, two elections in 1972 or something like that.
01:07:43.240 And they basically had the same policies.
01:07:45.240 It was Ted Heath, the conservative who brought in like rationing and you know, not having electricity.
01:07:51.240 And Thatcher comes in, she goes, I'm not for the politics of consensus.
01:07:54.240 I'm for conviction politics.
01:07:55.240 I'm going to, you know, say F you.
01:07:58.240 And if you don't like it, don't vote for me, but we're going to have a different point of
01:08:00.240 view.
01:08:01.240 That is not the way the post World War II political discourse was had.
01:08:06.240 It was very much consensus.
01:08:09.240 Let's work from the middle.
01:08:10.240 And you know, in retrospect, it was kind of this quasi socialist center left middle, but
01:08:15.240 that's the way it was.
01:08:16.240 And I don't, why am I switching?
01:08:18.240 I want to win.
01:08:19.240 Why am I letting my opponent win half the time?
01:08:21.240 If the system is set up.
01:08:22.240 I can tell why you're not married.
01:08:23.240 But I make the joke, but, but I have to say that way of thinking does prevent you from
01:08:36.240 cooperating with others.
01:08:38.240 And cooperation is necessary.
01:08:40.240 I don't, I disagree.
01:08:43.240 I think my way of thinking is a useful long term approach, because if you have a dedicated,
01:08:51.240 radicalized minority, they are going to punch way above their weight. 0.53
01:08:56.240 And we can see this just as we discussed earlier with the gay rights movement, because in the
01:09:00.240 90s, it was completely anathema.
01:09:02.240 You cannot speak of this even in mainstream television.
01:09:05.240 And now if you go to Times Square, and I'm sure Piccadilly, it's rainbow flags, you know, 0.58
01:09:09.240 from pillar to post.
01:09:10.240 Yes.
01:09:11.240 Yes.
01:09:12.240 So this was a small group.
01:09:13.240 Yes.
01:09:14.240 Who had intense convictions, and they won resoundingly.
01:09:18.240 They always had disproportionate cultural power as well.
01:09:21.240 That's true.
01:09:22.240 Yes.
01:09:23.240 Yes.
01:09:24.240 But what we're talking about in terms of my joke about, I can see why you're not married.
01:09:29.240 Any relationship with other people requires give and take on both sides.
01:09:35.240 Whereas you want to win every time, no matter what.
01:09:37.240 Yes.
01:09:38.240 I always get which doctor I want, unless he's busy.
01:09:41.240 I always get which lawyer I want.
01:09:43.240 I get whatever I want in the store, as it does everyone else, assuming you could pay the
01:09:46.240 price.
01:09:47.240 So this idea that in politics, I'm not going to get what I want all the time is nonsensical.
01:09:50.240 But in order for you to get what you want, you would have to be voting for someone to
01:09:55.240 represent just you.
01:09:56.240 Or you have to abolish the system that allows someone to rule over me.
01:10:01.240 Tell me more.
01:10:02.240 So this whole democracy is just an obscenity that must be destroyed.
01:10:06.240 And I'm very heartened that every metric is showing that people's faith in these long-held
01:10:13.240 cultural institutions is not only being destroyed, but in an extreme direction.
01:10:18.240 All right, Michael, I want to hear all about why the destruction of democracy is great,
01:10:23.240 but we've done over an hour, so the rest will be on Locals.
01:10:26.240 Head on over there to see the rest of this conversation.
01:10:29.240 Where has anarchism been successful in history?
01:10:36.240 I can't believe we, having even though that we can't do enough food they 99 times have given us
01:10:38.160 to use sites.
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01:10:43.240 be putting them on.
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