TRIGGERnometry - Cults, Scientology, Wokeness with Chris Shelton

00:00:00.000 We're talking about wokeism. To you, is that a cult?

00:00:04.120 It is.

00:00:10.640 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:14.700 I'm Constantin Kissin.

00:00:15.920 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:21.260 And the fascinating guest we have for you today, he's an ex-scientologist, author and YouTuber, Chris Shelton.

00:00:27.480 Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:29.000 Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here.

00:00:31.380 We are very happy to have you.

00:00:32.780 Listen, let's get straight into, I should mention at the beginning that we'll talk about cults,

00:00:37.560 including some of the ones we discuss quite regularly on the show later on in the interview.

00:00:42.160 But let's start with your story.

00:00:43.940 You got involved in Scientology.

00:00:45.460 You spent 27 years in one shape or form in that whole situation.

00:00:49.540 Tell everybody from the very beginning to the very end, how did that all happen?

00:00:53.300 Excellent. I was four years old when my parents got involved.

00:00:57.040 and yeah my uncle wrangled my dad in my dad wrangled my mom in and they did communications

00:01:04.300 classes and thought it was the bees knees and they started becoming Scientologists and

00:01:10.280 and they were divorced and they got back together so my entire childhood I credited

00:01:19.820 to Scientology to having a family that was the big selling point for me as a kid

00:01:26.920 And then I was sort of around it, raised with the principles of it, just like any other religious household.

00:01:34.340 It was pretty, you know, pretty hardcore indoctrination.

00:01:38.600 All of my parents, friends, friends, you know, all of that, Scientologists.

00:01:44.360 So very kind of bubble world-y sort of growing up.

00:01:48.140 Even though I did go to public school, I did have that experience.

00:01:51.160 and then after high school or actually while I was still in high school is when I started doing

00:01:57.980 my own class work and really getting involved so that when I finished high school they recruited me

00:02:04.760 to join staff and start working for the church and they totally changed my career path I was

00:02:10.020 going to go be a writer and you know I was kind of aspiring to be a new Stephen King or something

00:02:14.900 And this is 1987. This is back a ways. And I was instead convinced that my talents would better be utilized saving the world. And I went all in. They really got me. And so I ended up working for the church.

00:02:33.400 And I worked in Santa Barbara at the local Church of Scientology there for eight years.

00:02:39.280 It was a very hard existence because I had a full-time job at the church, which was considered

00:02:47.140 volunteer work.

00:02:48.980 And then I had to have another full-time job to support myself.

00:02:53.500 So all I was doing was working.

00:02:55.240 It was like 80, 90 hour work week.

00:02:58.140 And so really the only time I had off was weekend nights to do my laundry and stuff like that.

00:03:03.900 That was my existence for about eight years.

00:03:05.920 I was really dedicated, really hardcore.

00:03:08.520 And there's a lot of abusive nonsense that happened during those eight years while I was in Santa Barbara.

00:03:15.040 But that pales in comparison to what happened when I was 25.

00:03:18.800 And I decided, well, this Santa Barbara thing is fun and nice and all that with Scientology.

00:03:24.660 And we're trying to make a difference in the world with this.

00:03:27.560 But we're not. We're small. We're tiny. There's nothing really happening here. I want to make a difference. I got to save the world. I was really on that bandwagon. So I stepped up to what is called the Sea Organization. SEA, as in the ocean.

00:03:44.180 It's a paramilitary naval outfit that Hubbard created all by himself, invented it in 1967.

00:03:52.720 And the most hardcore, really the most fanatical Scientologists are the ones who go into or get recruited for the Sea Organization.

00:04:02.460 And that's a 24-7, all you're doing is Scientology kind of a setup.

00:04:09.240 You don't have any other life.

00:04:10.680 So you go and you live on a Sea Org base, which is set up like a military base with dorms and a galley, and they feed you and they uniform you in uniforms, and it's yes, sir, no, sir, and ranks and ratings and all of it. It's all there.

00:04:24.900 And there's about 4,000 to 5,000. I think when I was in, it's about 5,000. I think now it's descended down to about 3,500 people internationally who are the Sea Org.

00:04:36.280 so it's a small group and we had it in our minds that we were saving the world

00:04:42.600 and it was a very very physically and emotionally it ordeal it was an ordeal it was it was quite

00:04:51.140 a thing and that was that was another 17 years that i did that wow yeah i was i was really

00:05:00.000 dedicated and i and i and i really want i keep saying that because i want to get across to people

00:05:04.900 that the power of a purpose, of a belief, of an idea is there isn't anything, I believe there is

00:05:14.280 nothing in this world more powerful than what we can do with our ideas. And I kind of lived that

00:05:21.080 for 25 years working for the church. I had so many bad experiences, I cannot even begin to detail

00:05:28.800 them all here. But for example, three years of that 17 years was spent on a re-education

00:05:35.960 prison-type program called the Rehabilitation Project Force. It's an internal Maoist re-education

00:05:42.500 camp that exists within the Sea Org, within the world of Scientology. It's not a well-known thing.

00:05:48.680 And it took me three years to go through this quote-unquote rehabilitation program,

00:05:54.140 which really meant that I was spending most of my day, anywhere from 10 to 13, 14 hours a day,

00:06:02.500 on hard physical labor. Retarring roofs in the hot summer sun, setting up stages and events,

00:06:10.940 building furniture, hardcore stuff. And that wasn't too much fun. That was the first time I

00:06:17.580 ever broke a bone in my body, doing some work there and getting pushed around. And there was

00:06:24.700 a guy who lost an eye. There were people who had very, very bad physical things happen to them as

00:06:29.640 a result of that program. And I'm not even getting into right now the depths of the psychological

00:06:36.400 manipulation that occurs. I called it a Maoist re-education camp because that's actually the

00:06:42.240 closest thing i can think of to describe what this what this program was like and that was just

00:06:49.060 one part of the whole experience the entire scientology experience is one of mental and

00:06:54.840 you know psychological and emotional manipulation and uh i was physically assaulted there's physical

00:07:00.780 violence as well so um it was not a fun time but it was you know it was it was a life of dedication

00:07:10.480 and discipline and it was and i thought in my mind i was comparing it to the kind of dedication

00:07:16.520 that one would see in monks or or nuns in a monastery type of situation like it's that

00:07:24.000 you know we're dedicated we are hardcore we mean it we're in it to win it and there was a lot of

00:07:29.780 esprit de corps there was a lot of like yeah we're riling each other up all the time right

00:07:33.820 but at the same time here's the problem with this is one we weren't saving the world and two

00:07:39.620 it's a snitch culture. It's a 1984 kind of culture, quite literally. So you're always

00:07:47.980 reporting on each other. And it's a very domineering authoritarian setup. And your rights,

00:07:56.100 your human rights, your civil rights, they don't matter in an environment like that.

00:08:00.680 The mission is the only thing that matters, what we're doing. And of course, after all these years

00:08:08.320 of abuse and nonsense, I started waking up.

00:08:13.120 It was a slow process because it had been something

00:08:16.680 that had been part of my entire life.

00:08:18.580 I'd been part of this since I was four years old.

00:08:21.720 L. Ron Hubbard was presented to me by my parents,

00:08:24.880 who I loved and respected, as a genius, philosopher,

00:08:30.420 scientist, brilliant writer.

00:08:32.560 That was L. Ron Hubbard's positioning to me growing up.

00:08:36.160 So I thought this guy was great.

00:08:38.320 And I thought everything he said was true.

00:08:41.140 And he says some pretty ridiculous stuff, to say the least.

00:08:46.280 He talks about, you know, taking spiritual journeys to Venus and Mars.

00:08:52.080 And, you know, he talks about intergalactic space civilizations and aliens and a lot of interesting, crazy stuff.

00:09:00.100 But I thought it was all true because I was raised to literally believe it was true.

00:09:05.100 so it took a long time and a lot of abuse had to be rained down on me before i started going

00:09:12.720 you know i don't think this is what it says it is and that rpf program i mentioned was a big part

00:09:19.580 of waking up because you go through three years of intense physical abuse hard physical labor

00:09:24.060 psychological manipulation and some pretty intense gaslighting and it changes you you know you start

00:09:30.980 thinking about things in a different way. So finally, in 2012, I got out of the C organization.

00:09:39.320 I had come to the point of realizing then that the organization of Scientology, this guy David

00:09:46.440 Miscavige who heads the church and what they were doing, was more about money than it was about

00:09:51.620 actually helping people. Surprise! Right? I mean, I should say, I always neglect to say this from

00:09:59.820 the get-go, it's a money-making scam. That's what Scientology is, okay? There's no legitimacy to it

00:10:07.260 whatsoever. I don't even think of it as a legitimate religion. And there are arguments

00:10:13.120 to be made on both sides of that, but that's where I come from. So I finally started waking

00:10:19.040 up. It took years for me to accept, to come to the realization that maybe the organization was off.

00:10:25.260 I still thought the subject was good

00:10:28.960 and I still thought Elrond Hubbard

00:10:30.540 knew what he was talking about

00:10:31.740 I just thought Miscavige was kind of running it off a cliff

00:10:34.980 so I got out of the Sea Org

00:10:37.860 but I still wanted to do Scientology

00:10:39.780 and I was still dedicated as a Scientologist

00:10:42.680 it would be equivalent to maybe leaving a parish

00:10:46.700 or a church or something

00:10:47.680 because you don't like the deacon or the bishop or the minister

00:10:50.720 but you still think God's real, right?

00:10:54.060 So I get out.

00:10:57.160 And here's another thing that's going on in this group.

00:11:01.040 Many things are going on.

00:11:02.700 But one of the key things is information control.

00:11:06.860 I didn't have internet access.

00:11:10.100 Hardly at all.

00:11:11.040 And certainly never saw South Park.

00:11:14.780 Never knew about Tom Cruise's craziness with Oprah.

00:11:18.980 Never knew about so many things.

00:11:21.940 I mean, there were just tons and tons of lies, just rivers of lies.

00:11:28.500 And what happened is after I got out, I was able to get on the Internet.

00:11:33.600 For real, like really deep dive.

00:11:36.220 I had had some exposure to a few negative things while I was working in Scientology because, you know, information kind of passes around.

00:11:46.340 But this is a group where everybody who's in it really does believe in it.

00:11:51.540 We were all true believers.

00:11:52.960 So we weren't looking for negative information.

00:11:55.580 We weren't trying to be critical.

00:11:58.080 And Chris, you said that you believe in it, right?

00:12:01.880 I'm going to be honest.

00:12:02.920 Every time I read about Scientology, I don't really understand it.

00:12:06.800 What do you believe in?

00:12:08.580 Oh, well, okay.

00:12:11.280 Well, let me answer that in just a moment.

00:12:14.580 Let me just quickly wrap this up by saying once I got on the internet,

00:12:19.140 three months later, it was all over.

00:12:21.540 right all over i was out mentally out but i was still physically scientologist i still had all

00:12:28.460 these scientology friends i had just left working for the sea org but i was still trying to make my

00:12:33.780 way in this world and that's when i started speaking up so anonymously at first i was

00:12:41.660 posting on forums and message boards and chat boards and stuff not under my own name and then

00:12:47.100 And by the end of 2013, which was the year that this all went down, kind of the best and worst

00:12:54.500 year of my life. Best because I discovered the truth. Worst because I lost everybody.

00:13:02.980 Scientology shuns. It's called disconnection. And if you step out of line, if you step out

00:13:07.760 of the rules, if you question anything that's going on, you're shunned.

00:13:12.860 Sounds like the comedy industry in this country, mate.

00:13:15.100 exactly so it's not it's it's it's sort of cancel culture on steroids right yeah not only will they

00:13:22.620 cancel you they will continue to go after you if you keep talking if you keep speaking up

00:13:27.820 so um so i got out and so by the end of 2013 basically a year after i had left i was no

00:13:36.780 longer a scientologist i was actually speaking out against it and um i'd set up a blog and in 2014

00:13:44.100 I came out into my own name and started speaking out loud and proud because the church had figured

00:13:50.340 out that I was speaking out and they disconnected me and they declared me what's called a suppressive

00:13:56.100 person or an SP. I'm an SP. I'm a bad guy. And that's the definition there in Scientology.

00:14:04.940 That's the equivalent of being an antisocial psychotic personality. Clearly, you know, that's

00:14:12.320 So that's the story, right?

00:14:15.420 There's tons of details.

00:14:16.800 I mean, so many things to get into with that.

00:14:18.820 But that's the broad strokes of it.

00:14:21.560 And now let me answer your question.

00:14:23.640 Scientology presents itself as, let me put it this way,

00:14:28.340 Scientology presents itself as a religious philosophy

00:14:31.220 where the basic core belief is that you, me, everybody

00:14:35.900 are spiritual beings, spiritual entities that are called thetans

00:14:40.160 to differentiate it from soul or spirit or ghost or something.

00:14:45.220 And the Phaeton has lived forever, can't die, is going to live forever.

00:14:51.780 That's you.

00:14:52.440 You're going to live forever.

00:14:53.440 You're always going to be around.

00:14:55.060 But the quality of your existence is in question

00:14:57.780 because you've been around for a long time,

00:14:59.920 living life after life after life.

00:15:02.780 You know, you have a body, you grow the body, you live the life,

00:15:06.200 the body dies.

00:15:07.300 you as a spirit are then compelled, Hubbard says, to go get another body, go down to the hospital

00:15:14.740 and pick up a baby body that no other thetan has glommed onto yet. And you grow that body and live

00:15:22.480 that body as though that's you and that's your life. And you believe as a spirit, because you

00:15:26.980 have been compelled to through a great deal of force and pain and stuff, you have been compelled

00:15:34.200 to believe that you are a body.

00:15:36.420 That's all you are.

00:15:38.460 And Hubbard, the analogy would be

00:15:40.520 probably the easiest way to think about this is

00:15:42.560 if you think of your body as like a doll,

00:15:47.020 as like a Barbie doll,

00:15:48.420 and kids play with dolls.

00:15:51.660 But what if the kids started thinking

00:15:53.600 they were the dolls?

00:15:56.380 That's the current state of mankind,

00:15:58.420 according to L. Ron Hubbard.

00:15:59.520 We all are running around thinking we're this.

00:16:02.660 This is all there is to life.

00:16:04.200 So there's a lot of hope. There's a lot of like, wow, there's a big, wide, there's all these possibilities. And similar to the confidential upper levels of the Mormon LDS church, there's a concept at the higher levels of Scientology that you actually achieve a state of godhood.

00:16:23.980 and that through the practices of Scientology,

00:16:28.580 they will lead you down this path

00:16:30.540 that will take you to a place of spiritual immortality

00:16:34.280 and understanding and spiritual ability.

00:16:39.240 So Hubbard talks in his lectures about superpowers

00:16:43.220 like telekinesis and telepathy

00:16:44.940 and clairvoyance and stuff like that

00:16:47.700 as things all of us potentially can do.

00:16:51.480 Sign me up, mate.

00:16:52.260 That sounds great.

00:16:52.940 Well, not only does it sound great, but actually it's not entirely out of whack with quite a lot of different spiritual movements, religious and cultural movements throughout history. So, so far, I'm not, I mean, I'm not saying it's necessarily appealing to me, but it's not out of whack with quite a lot of other movements, let's say.

00:17:15.300 Exactly. You're nailing it. And, and that's the surface. That's the veneer. That's the sales job,

00:17:20.980 right? Here's, here's what it is. It's this great thing. And we're going to improve you.

00:17:24.820 We're going to give you a toolkit for life. We're going to give you all these practical tools you

00:17:29.520 can use to handle your finances, communicate with your kids, get along better with your boss or your

00:17:36.200 spouse, you know, real practical living stuff. And do they do, do they give you that? Do they

00:17:41.860 give you tools to do that does that stuff work well some of it does some of the time right and

00:17:48.280 lower level common sense stuff right like for example uh a scientology principle is when in

00:17:56.560 doubt communicate well that's a principle that served me pretty well if i'm having a problem

00:18:03.700 with somebody i communicate to them about it i don't just sit on it and i don't just make

00:18:08.520 assumptions. And a lot of people have problems with that. They have a problem with stepping up

00:18:14.360 and having what could potentially be a confrontational conversation, either with

00:18:19.080 friends or somebody they're having a problem with. Scientology has some practical exercises

00:18:24.700 you can do in one of their lower level communications classes that can teach you to

00:18:29.600 be a little bit more bold and a little bit more willing to step up. It doesn't teach you to yell

00:18:35.300 and scream at people as a confrontational measure,

00:18:38.200 it teaches you how to look somebody in the eye

00:18:40.660 and say something that somebody else can hear.

00:18:45.140 This is really Toastmasters-level stuff.

00:18:48.340 This is not...

00:18:49.180 Any speaking group is going to teach you how to do this stuff.

00:18:52.260 It's not Scientology is wonderful stuff.

00:18:55.980 It's that this is common sense.

00:18:58.580 But it's packaged in such a way,

00:19:00.700 and L. Ron Hubbard talks about it in such a way

00:19:03.100 is to make it sound like it's this wonderful, unique, incredible stuff, that he is the only

00:19:10.360 one who could, through his genius, come up with all of it, right? He was a writer, and he wasn't

00:19:17.820 necessarily a bad one sometimes. He was very good at manipulating people.

00:19:23.660 And Chris, the unique thing for me about Scientology isn't really what you've actually

00:19:29.440 said. It's the way that it harnesses celebrity as a marketing tool in order to get people to

00:19:36.060 enroll. That to me, I wouldn't want to use the word genius, but in a way it is genius because

00:19:40.880 I don't see any other religion that has done that. That's exactly right. And it was a dedicated

00:19:46.460 strategy on the part of L. Ron Hubbard as early as 1955 to wrangle in celebrities and use them

00:19:54.640 as a front, as a PR front, to get more people in.

00:19:59.120 And that strategy worked in spades for Scientology.

00:20:03.400 The truth of the matter is that Scientology probably wouldn't exist right now

00:20:08.380 if it wasn't for two people, John Travolta and Tom Cruise.

00:20:13.380 And they have, in turns, been the voice and public face of Scientology

00:20:19.600 and have been very active in talking about the benefits of it for decades.

00:20:24.640 John Travolta is a true believer. He's also a real nice guy. I've met him. He is. He's genuinely

00:20:30.560 a nice guy, but he's completely deluded. And he's all in, just like I used to be.

00:20:35.740 Tom Cruise, on the other hand, is a bit of a different kettle of fish. I have

00:20:39.800 many more critical things to say about him. Right. Shall we go down there?

00:20:45.140 He's got very powerful lawyers and a lot of money. Maybe let's take it easy on that one.

00:20:50.400 uh but so so you leave you become this you essentially excommunicated for for the crime

00:20:59.060 of speaking out uh and i imagine there's a sort of rewiring in your brain that happens

00:21:04.540 that's right that's right that's right it's called the recovery process and recovering from

00:21:11.000 scientology or or a high control group as we like to call them i mean you could use the term you

00:21:15.880 lots of terms destructive cult high control group authoritarian group um recovering from

00:21:21.520 these groups is no joke it usually takes professional intervention and and that's not

00:21:26.140 saying that there's something wrong with you that you're so screwed up that that's what you need

00:21:31.400 it's actually the fact that pretty much you know a lot more people than is generally realized could

00:21:37.540 use some help um but this is not a process you want to do by yourself is my point i've been

00:21:44.680 learning and and talking about and advocating for and and and trying to educate on the subject of

00:21:50.780 the recovery process and my channel my work has been an effort to try to share my own experience

00:21:58.400 my own work on this and help other people along with the process and then at the same time try

00:22:05.000 to educate the world at large so that we have less people who need to do this kind of process

00:22:10.380 because there are way too many of these groups out there,

00:22:14.680 far more than just Scientology.

00:22:16.960 And the thing that I find interesting is the celebrity element.

00:22:21.480 Are the celebrities not aware of what's going on?

00:22:25.040 No, they're not.

00:22:26.640 They are kept in insulated, isolated worlds

00:22:29.280 that are actually even more insular than the Scientology bubble world.

00:22:35.040 The celebrity world is something I've learned a lot about

00:22:37.840 after getting out of Scientology.

00:22:39.460 And of course, I'm friends with a couple of celebrities and, you know, like Leah, who's an ex-Scientologist herself.

00:22:45.440 And so you learn some things.

00:22:47.820 And one of the things that I've learned is that, you know, when you become a public figure, and I'm sure you guys are aware of this, right, it limits your options in some cases.

00:22:58.600 You can't go out all the time in some situations or, you know, especially the big celebrities, right?

00:23:03.660 You can't just go down to the pub.

00:23:05.320 You can't just go hang out, right?

00:23:07.280 You're going to get mobbed.

00:23:08.280 So you learn that you have to rely on certain people.

00:23:14.680 Key people become very important in your life to manage your affairs,

00:23:19.160 help organize things, set up logistics, etc.

00:23:21.780 And when those people are Scientology celebrities, Scientologists,

00:23:28.160 then they're going to trust other Scientologists.

00:23:31.120 And so they surround themselves with Scientologists.

00:23:34.280 And the Church of Scientology goes out of its way to make this happen and facilitate it.

00:23:39.680 They even have their own separate sub-organization within the church called Celebrity Center.

00:23:46.840 And it's spelled British spelling, by the way, C-E-N-T-R-E.

00:23:51.220 And it is, because it was created by an Australian,

00:23:56.160 and the Celebrity Center Network is a group of Scientology churches or organizations

00:24:02.500 that are specifically dedicated

00:24:03.980 only to celebrities and their entourages.

00:24:06.840 It's that important.

00:24:08.640 And the main one is in Los Angeles.

00:24:10.920 That's where the big celebs go.

00:24:13.600 And they have an office

00:24:15.460 called the Office of the President.

00:24:17.660 And the President's Office

00:24:18.720 of the Celebrity Center

00:24:19.660 is the control network

00:24:21.940 for all the Scientology celebrities.

00:24:24.600 They brief them.

00:24:25.980 They drill and practice with them

00:24:28.080 about how to talk about Scientology in media

00:24:30.720 and how not to talk about Scientology,

00:24:33.340 how to avoid certain questions.

00:24:35.680 This is why Tom Cruise gets a pass all the time

00:24:37.980 because he refuses to answer any questions on the subject.

00:24:42.220 He just won't be confronted on it.

00:24:44.480 And all of his handlers and people who are around him

00:24:47.440 are all Scientologists.

00:24:49.700 So they're not going to let any of the negativity

00:24:53.160 about Scientology go anywhere near that celebrity

00:24:55.880 if they can help it.

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00:25:26.440 and is it advantageous in for instance if you want a career in in the media or acting

00:25:33.700 to be a Scientologist is it will they pull strings in order to help you progress

00:25:39.140 or does it not work like that it doesn't work like that anymore for a period of time back in the

00:25:45.480 80s and 90s they had some pull in Hollywood with the exposure that happened in the 2000s

00:25:52.480 and the whole meltdown that happened in the mid-2000s,

00:25:56.060 everything changed.

00:25:57.520 And sort of the gloves came off with the media.

00:26:00.680 And Scientology was defanged in many ways.

00:26:05.280 I'm not at all implying

00:26:07.100 that they are not a dangerous organization still

00:26:09.260 because they are, and they're incredibly abusive.

00:26:12.580 But publicly, the amount of power they have in Hollywood

00:26:15.740 has just plummeted because of the exposure

00:26:19.080 of all of the abuses.

00:26:21.140 Chris, I want to open it up to beyond just Scientology.

00:26:25.700 And I think the question that interests me is, what's the difference between a cult, which is, I think, what you would say Scientology is, and the religion?

00:26:38.340 Great question.

00:26:40.200 And to be even more specific, a destructive cult.

00:26:43.700 because if you open up a dictionary and you look up the word cult

00:26:47.760 any religion almost any group that has a dedicated you know part to it could be considered a cult

00:26:55.820 but a destructive cult is the term we use because it it makes it clear that this is an abusive

00:27:01.360 organization that's going to hurt you more than it's going to help you and when it comes to that

00:27:06.280 differentiation what we're talking about are actions what they do and i stress this over

00:27:13.500 and over again. A cult is not

00:27:15.420 a group with a weird belief set

00:27:16.880 because there is no group anywhere

00:27:19.300 that somebody couldn't think is weird.

00:27:21.980 Right? Every group is weird.

00:27:24.280 It's what

00:27:25.480 do they do with those beliefs?

00:27:28.240 Because that's what you

00:27:29.500 can watch and that's what you can prove and that's

00:27:31.480 what you can actually regulate.

00:27:33.700 And so what we are looking

00:27:35.380 at with destructive cults is groups that

00:27:37.460 use a belief set or an

00:27:39.460 ideology

00:27:40.080 to

00:27:42.180 radicalize, to promote a non-constructive agenda, you could say, whether it's financially

00:27:51.520 rapacious and it's bankrupting its members left, right, and center, which is what Scientology

00:27:56.460 does in many of these other groups, whether it's physically violent, whether it's radicalizing

00:28:01.460 people in the direction of even terrorist activities, stuff like that. I mean, we see

00:28:07.360 Heaven's Gate years ago, which was a suicide UFO cult, all its members killed themselves.

00:28:14.800 That's pretty destructive, right? That's a belief set informing action. And so this is where my

00:28:21.260 demarcation line is. This is the important part is it's not what they believe. It's what they do

00:28:26.660 with those beliefs. Destructive cults isolate, manipulate, and control. They engage in what's

00:28:34.700 called coercive control. But how is that different? And I'm just genuinely trying to understand the

00:28:40.320 difference. So there are religions which elements of which encourage people to commit violent acts,

00:28:46.420 right? Mainstream religions. There are religions which encourage individuals not to get married

00:28:51.320 or have a family, which is one of the basic building blocks of the human condition, you might

00:28:56.560 argue. There are religions that encourage people to donate large sums of money or even tithe a

00:29:04.480 portion of their earnings to a church. There are religions that do all sorts of things that

00:29:10.360 essentially require people to live in a way that you might argue is completely against their

00:29:16.560 sort of material interests or practical interests, right? So what's the difference between elements

00:29:23.040 of Islam, elements of Judaism, elements of Christianity, elements of Hinduism, elements

00:29:27.100 of Buddhism, and what you're talking about. Is there a difference? How can you tell?

00:29:32.200 Again, it's really a matter of what do they do with those beliefs. Beliefs inform action.

00:29:38.800 For example, okay, here are some characteristics that we can talk about. Us versus them thinking,

00:29:44.080 right? Black and white thinking, right? Our way or the highway. A destructive cult is a group that

00:29:49.940 has a belief set, like any other group, but there's this scale of extremism, you could say.

00:29:57.540 And you cross a line when it's no longer acceptable that you think your own thoughts,

00:30:04.380 that you have independent thinking, that you be critical at all of this group or what's going on

00:30:10.280 in it, that you might want to step away from it for a little while. One thing that is used

00:30:16.900 as a judgment factor sometimes is

00:30:19.440 what happens

00:30:20.760 sometimes the only way you can tell a group is a cult

00:30:23.640 is what happens when you try to leave

00:30:25.200 right what do they do

00:30:27.700 and these groups tend to

00:30:29.740 be rather extreme about

00:30:31.520 keeping you they try to

00:30:33.720 go way out of their way

00:30:35.560 to control your life and control your thinking

00:30:37.820 and control your behavior

00:30:38.920 and they're overriding

00:30:41.800 your own determinism

00:30:44.040 right and that's where

00:30:45.560 there's this point where it's gone too far, where you are being controlled, I guess I

00:30:52.940 could say, you know, where there's coercion being used against you.

00:30:56.500 If it's, you know, every group has rules, but you go in knowing what those rules are

00:31:03.420 and agreeing to it.

00:31:04.880 And if you do that, it's a little hard for me to make judgments about it.

00:31:08.720 Like, you know, if you want to go be a Catholic monk and go live in a monastery and live the

00:31:14.340 ascetic life. I can't tell you that's wrong. That's your choice to make with your life.

00:31:20.760 But if I tell you, I'm going to give you the dream job of your life and you're going to save

00:31:28.480 the world and it's going to be wonderful. You're going to get paid a lot. You're going to meet

00:31:31.440 wonderful people. You're going to travel the world and it's going to be awesome.

00:31:34.740 And then I stick you in a monk's cossack and stick you at a monastery on the top of a mountain and

00:31:40.620 go, have at it. I have presented something very different from the reality of that picture,

00:31:46.720 right? And I've told you, I sold you on this whole bill of goods. I'm being a little exaggerated to

00:31:52.780 make the point. But the point is, are you being abused in the group? Is there physical, emotional,

00:32:01.900 psychological abuse levied against you? And is there informed consent? Do you know what you're

00:32:07.520 getting into? Or do you not know what you're getting into? Do they do stuff to you that you

00:32:11.820 never agreed to in the first place? And Chris, what techniques would they use in order to groom

00:32:18.120 people so that they then could become Scientology members and followers? Well, it's really interesting

00:32:24.020 because what they try to do is, and this is pretty uniform from group to group, especially

00:32:29.180 when we're talking about these religious or self-help groups, is they try to find some

00:32:34.160 weakness, something inside you, you know, some problem you're having, some emotional

00:32:38.000 difficulty you're having, trauma, stress, you know, change

00:32:42.140 in your life, recent loss, something like that.

00:32:46.740 And convince you that they can solve that problem.

00:32:51.360 And so then you go in and maybe you

00:32:54.080 get a little bit of relief, a little bit of help. Somebody actually listens to you for once.

00:32:58.140 That's a very powerful force, by the way, just having somebody listening to you.

00:33:01.460 um then you start thinking this stuff works you slowly get more and more and more involved in it

00:33:09.720 and uh before you know it you're all in and um in terms of techniques man they're all over the place

00:33:18.880 there's i mean it's it's propaganda technique to get you in and then it's a series of

00:33:25.120 gaslighting uh in i mean eventually there's enough abuse that it's that it becomes a situation of

00:33:35.880 of traumatic bonding or learned helplessness in other words they're abusing you and they're

00:33:39.740 helping you and they're abusing you and they're helping you and they're abusing you and they're

00:33:41.760 abusing you and they're helping you and this back and forth is kind of what messes with your head

00:33:47.420 psychologically like okay you go in and you think this is the greatest group ever and the leader is

00:33:51.840 wonderful and you go talk to the leader and he's kind and he's wonderful and he's beneficent

00:33:55.740 and he gives you good advice. But then the next day he tells you he doesn't have any time for you

00:34:00.740 and go away. And then you come back the next day and he's all nice and smiles again. And it's this

00:34:05.920 kind of pattern. Right. And it keeps you coming back. It's weird. It's a weird thing in our

00:34:11.560 psychology that it keeps coming back for more. It's really interesting. And so

00:34:15.620 you see, I keep, I'm stuck on the religion question because even a lot of the stuff you're

00:34:23.240 describing, like the punishment for apostasy, there are plenty of religions that have pretty

00:34:28.980 strict rules about that that may not be presented to you right at the beginning when you're being

00:34:34.400 indoctrinated. Certainly, you know, I grew up in the former Soviet Union. There are a lot of

00:34:38.560 Orthodox Christians, particularly now, who have very similar ways of behaving to what you're

00:34:44.260 describing and Islam is the same and other branches of Christianity are the same. So I guess

00:34:49.440 what I'm asking is, how do you know, if someone's watching this, how do you know that you are in a

00:34:56.360 destructive cult of some kind? Right. Okay. So in these big, broad religions, you have churches or

00:35:04.760 groups or individuals running little setups. Those can become very culty. Without the

00:35:14.240 whole, without the overall religion itself being a destructive cult. So, so we can get this kind

00:35:21.120 of cult experience going on in any of these groups. Um, you know, Westboro Baptists, for

00:35:26.820 example, in the Christian world, right? Christianity in and of itself isn't necessarily

00:35:31.060 destructive cult, but the Westboro Baptists sure are. So how do you know? Well, do you get to think

00:35:37.980 your own thoughts um i'm on twitter so no mate i don't do you get do you get to disagree what

00:35:44.660 happens if you disagree what happens if you have a different idea from what the leader's dogma or

00:35:50.420 ideology is or from what the official textbooks say are you allowed to have that kind of thinking

00:35:57.320 can you disagree with a very basic principle and chris we we were mentioning we're talking

00:36:04.840 about wokeism to you is that a cult it is to me it is yeah to be straight up blunt about it i i

00:36:12.200 think it is i it's and here's the and here's the problem with with saying that that the people

00:36:17.480 blow up their their heads blow up immediately is they think that means that i disagree with the

00:36:21.800 values of wokeism right human rights civil rights equal rights you know let's let's give uh an

00:36:29.620 equality of opportunity um not an equality of outcome right but an equality of opportunity

00:36:34.520 I think that's an important thing.

00:36:37.180 Like, I agree with all those things.

00:36:39.980 But this actually speaks to my point.

00:36:42.680 I can agree with all those things philosophically, but what do people do with them?

00:36:48.940 Well, some people go so extreme with them.

00:36:51.540 They're so into having, you know, human rights for everybody that they'll kill you if you don't agree.

00:36:56.500 they'll strip you of your human rights and say that's justified because you know you're standing

00:37:04.040 in my way it's it becomes this my way or the highway this extremism this fanaticism about it

00:37:11.320 this inability to consider that other points of view or other ways of of of seeing a thing

00:37:19.600 could be legitimate could have any reality or truth connected to it in any way right that when

00:37:25.660 you have that refusal that nope nope nope you know the whole alternative facts thing

00:37:32.120 all of that is very culty thinking because it's it's all about confirmation bias it's all about

00:37:40.380 motivated reasoning these are terms we use to describe this kind of thinking this like

00:37:44.760 this is the i have the conclusion i already know what's true so if you're going to try to tell me

00:37:52.460 something that's not this, I know, I don't even have to hear it. I don't even have to listen to

00:37:58.940 you. I don't have to grant you any importance or anything like that because nothing you say

00:38:05.380 matters because I already know the truth. That's the attitude of a cultist. And we see that in the

00:38:12.780 woke communities. Do you think that in terms of when, since we've moved across into the political

00:38:19.680 realm and the cultural realm. Is that the only cult that you see at the moment or is there other

00:38:25.640 stuff going on as well? Oh, gosh, no. I see cultic activity and propaganda techniques being

00:38:32.940 leveraged against people on all sides of the political spectrums. Every social issue. I mean,

00:38:37.840 it really comes down to, for me, I sort of have a bit of a sociological look at it.

00:38:44.980 You know, I bounce between psychology and sociology all the time because I'm looking at groups and I'm looking at individuals. And so I can talk, you know, I kind of think with both of these things. And sociologically, every group has this kind of lunatic fringe, extreme band to it, these true believers.

00:39:04.300 And it just kind of organically develops almost. It's not helped at all, though, when you get a leader or a leadership, like a group, like the elders that run the JWs, who are inciting and promoting and pushing and propagandizing for that kind of extreme view.

00:39:28.300 view. And that's what we see a lot in politics these days. A lot of people riling up, trying to

00:39:37.120 create, you know, trying to be their own little Trumps, let's say, you know, because we can use

00:39:41.160 that as an example. I mean, all politicians are kind of like this, but, you know, they try to

00:39:47.560 rile it up. And we've seen so much of that now on both ends of the political spectrums, on these

00:39:55.140 social issues that we are that that's very divided. It's a very divided situation. And that's that's

00:40:02.800 because of the propaganda that's leveled against people. Can you give us an example? So we'll talk

00:40:07.620 about the woke stuff in detail, I'm sure, but maybe elsewhere, because I certainly see that in

00:40:16.200 the woke side of things. And I mean, I guess if you went all the way to the like the extreme of

00:40:21.340 like QAnon and whatever, it does exist on the right. But to me, that is a tiny majority fringe

00:40:26.980 where I think the woke movement seems to be much more commonplace and widespread. At least that's

00:40:31.460 my interpretation. So can you give me your sense of where else it's happening and some of that you

00:40:37.780 talk about the propaganda techniques? Can you give us some examples? Absolutely. Well, cable news

00:40:43.620 networks, right? I mean, that's to me one of the biggest problems I see in our modern world is

00:40:50.660 is cable news networks and becoming propaganda machines

00:40:53.640 rather than sources of information or news.

00:40:57.000 We did a show on this a couple of weeks ago on my channel

00:40:59.480 where, you know, can a news source become a cult, become culty?

00:41:06.860 Well, UNN shows us that it can.

00:41:09.320 And so if we take that and look at or analyze news sources,

00:41:14.000 whether it's Fox, CNBC, MSN, BC, right, CNN, are your big three.

00:41:19.960 and you kind of break down what their schedule

00:41:23.480 and what they're doing and who's commentating

00:41:25.740 versus who's actually reporting

00:41:27.280 and what are they reporting and how are they reporting?

00:41:29.960 What's the factualness of it?

00:41:34.540 They're not news stations anymore.

00:41:37.180 They're propaganda platforms.

00:41:39.920 And I think that's a fairly extreme thing to say,

00:41:43.780 but I think it's justified.

00:41:46.400 Just so people understand, sorry, just to finish this point,

00:41:49.080 A news station is a station that reports to you events that have happened.

00:41:55.140 A propaganda station is a station that tells you what you should think about the thing that's happened.

00:42:04.600 And by the way, leaves out all the other stuff that's happened and only shows you one aspect of things that it wants you to focus in on.

00:42:12.460 Exactly. What we have seemed to have either gone into denial about or don't even really generally understand is that the news has become, it is big business. It's huge business. And so it's not just about delivering objective information anymore. It's about changing hearts and minds.

00:42:39.840 It's about manipulating hearts and minds.

00:42:42.700 And they're very powerful.

00:42:45.460 These are incredibly powerful platforms with the reach to millions of people at a shot.

00:42:50.800 So when you see that stations like Fox News, which doesn't even exist in the UK for a reason,

00:42:58.820 or MSNBC or CNN, and you look at the fact-checking percentages,

00:43:04.060 you see numbers like a third or something of what Fox News is reporting is just completely false.

00:43:09.840 I think it's 15%, 10% or something on CNN and MSNBC.

00:43:14.060 Don't quote me on those numbers,

00:43:15.220 but there's numbers connected with this.

00:43:18.180 You can actually statusize it

00:43:19.840 and break it down and analyze it.

00:43:21.520 And when you have the commentators,

00:43:25.200 you used to have newspapers with an editorial page.

00:43:28.660 Now, most of the damn newspapers,

00:43:30.840 the editorial page with a little bit of news.

00:43:33.420 And that news is, as you said, it is half the news.

00:43:37.040 It's the information about the event

00:43:39.840 that they want to present to you

00:43:42.100 to either confirm your bias

00:43:43.840 or push you in a direction

00:43:45.440 of whatever agenda is being forwarded.

00:43:48.660 And Chris, what effect is this having on society then?

00:43:51.400 Well, clearly, right?

00:43:52.620 We have a very divided society

00:43:54.120 because what it does is,

00:43:56.000 here's the problem with it,

00:43:57.180 is it takes away agency from the viewership

00:43:59.580 because the viewers are not getting the full story.

00:44:02.060 They cannot critically think

00:44:04.480 about the information that's presented to them

00:44:06.680 because they don't have all the information

00:44:08.140 or even most of it.

00:44:09.840 They have a lot of opinions with a little bit of facts that confirm the opinions.

00:44:15.060 So that divides people organically.

00:44:21.360 You know, you just start assigning, it's just the teammanship, the tribalism that is part of us.

00:44:27.500 You can use information to rile up that tribalism, that partisanship.

00:44:33.820 Because what you do, and here's how you do it.

00:44:36.000 The specific way that it's done, one of the most powerful ways that it's done is by othering, by making the people who don't agree with you, that don't see things the way you see them, as different, as inhuman, as monsters, as aliens, as like people who are not you, are not good like you are, are not informed, are not smart like you are, right?

00:45:01.740 This is part of the propaganda effort is the people who watch our news station are informed, fair, balanced, smart people.

00:45:14.520 All those other ignorant boobs out there don't know anything.

00:45:18.700 And in fact, some of them are actively working against you and want to see you dead.

00:45:24.000 when you get this kind of messaging out of a news platform

00:45:29.200 you have a very you know you you're capable of creating an incredibly divided

00:45:35.920 society do you not find it incredibly worrying chris that you see you've seen these tactics

00:45:45.060 being used in organizations as nefarious as scientology yet you turn on mainstream media

00:45:52.240 what should be objective reporting effects. And you're seeing the same techniques being used again.

00:45:57.740 That is exactly why I'm sitting here with you right now, because that's what's kept me

00:46:03.420 sort of going as a creator, as a content creator. You know, Scientology is a microcosm

00:46:10.360 of a much bigger problem. And that's how I think about and talk about Scientology now is

00:46:16.860 I've kind of, you know, I've been doing this for years. I've created hundreds of videos breaking down Scientology. And there came a point about four or five years ago where it started dawning on me that this is an object lesson.

00:46:33.000 This is not just some experience I'm recovering from. This is something I should be talking about to try to help people understand that we are surrounded by propaganda and thought reform techniques. Because exactly like you just said, you start studying the subject called thought reform. Some people call it brainwashing or manipulation or propaganda. There's a lot of ways you can describe it.

00:46:56.480 But how do you change hearts and minds? How do you sway populations? And once you start looking at that, of course, you start getting into PR and marketing and sales and the tactics that are used, and you start studying this in some depth, you can go to some pretty dark places pretty fast.

00:47:14.660 Because when you look at things like what Facebook is doing, what Cambridge Analytica, that whole scandal, the potentiality is a big data and the power that big data gives to these platforms that can use that data to manipulate masses of people at a time.

00:47:35.040 You're taking the same techniques L. Ron Hubbard used to manipulate one person who walks into their buildings and does their personality test.

00:47:44.440 You take those same techniques and you apply them to a million people at a shot.

00:47:50.700 You can get some pretty crazy effects.

00:47:52.880 You can get some very destructive effects on a society.

00:47:57.200 That's what I think my main mission, if I have a mission in life now,

00:48:02.440 it's trying to trying to point that out to people so they have a better understanding of it and can

00:48:08.080 think more critically of it you know because these are systems we're not going to change you're not

00:48:13.220 going to change i'm not going to change it they're too big there's too much there's too many people

00:48:16.860 involved in too many vested interests well i think that they're starting to change it for themselves

00:48:21.700 in in the the the veil has been lifted somewhat and we're now starting to see uh you know there's

00:48:30.240 there's a lot of stuff coming out i there's people on the right who are exposing left-wing

00:48:34.240 stations there's people on the left who are exposing right-wing stations and i think a lot

00:48:38.240 of people look at that and they're like going well we can tell that they're lying and the effect is

00:48:42.520 very clear you know the the most recent example is um cnn's coverage of covid uh and uh they did

00:48:50.780 some polling of cnn viewers and they found that a very large number of them think that uh essentially

00:48:56.720 your risk of being hospitalized with COVID, if you get it, is like 50% when the reality is like

00:49:01.300 1% because it's been a real focus. So I guess the question for me would be, how do you as an

00:49:07.940 individual protect yourself against all of this stuff? Do you just switch it off and don't watch

00:49:12.840 the news at all? Or is there some kind of set of techniques you can use to be present while you're

00:49:21.420 watching this stuff and sort of analyze it as it happens? That's a really good question. And it

00:49:26.180 really it's not it's not an either or it's actually a little bit of both um i don't pay

00:49:32.540 attention to quote-unquote news sources when they have been fact-checked routinely to come up with

00:49:39.300 you know a majority of or a good chunky percentage of just flat out biased false exaggerated

00:49:46.580 information right which is why i rail against all of the the the cable news networks because i agree

00:49:53.540 with you there's there's a slant and an agenda with all of them you can though of course

00:49:59.880 gauge for that and and account for that a little bit but but not as much as people think they can't

00:50:07.440 it's actually a little disturbing how overly confident people can be in their ability to

00:50:12.580 discern truth out of a pile of crap so because they're not really that good at it people just

00:50:18.940 kind of think they are. So what you have to do is be more discerning in the sources of the

00:50:25.580 information. Use more than one source, though. It's probably if there was one trick to this,

00:50:32.280 it's multiple sources. And then, of course, you can't do any of this if you don't know and use

00:50:40.620 critical thinking skills. There's just no substitute for it. If you don't know what a

00:50:45.500 fallacy is, if you don't know what bias actually is and how to recognize a biased report from an

00:50:53.220 unbiased report, which is not that hard to do once you know what to look for. You know, it doesn't

00:50:57.920 take forever to learn how to do this. You don't have to go get a college degree. It's just, it

00:51:02.720 does take a little bit of time and it does take a little bit of education. And what do you mean by

00:51:07.580 critical thinking to somebody? Because to a lot of people, that's a term they just hear, but they

00:51:12.720 don't actually know what it is what do you mean by that okay what i might mean by that is not

00:51:17.540 necessarily taking in information and just accepting it it's being critical of it which

00:51:24.380 means questioning and it's always questioning it's it's it's an attitude or a way of approaching

00:51:31.620 data for me more so than it is even a toolkit it's it's about okay you have now told me this

00:51:37.960 piece of information. Now, I would like to believe that that information is true because it matches

00:51:43.360 up with how I would like the world to look. But let me check that. And then you go and you look

00:51:48.920 it up. You Google, you talk to somebody, you read a book, you can, you know, there's different ways

00:51:53.860 of fact checking, but you take a little bit of time to second, third, fourth, you know, check

00:52:02.180 something over before you necessarily accept that it's totally true. Or you bookmark it for

00:52:09.100 later examination or at least flag it for, well, this might be true, but I need to do more work

00:52:16.940 on it. If we could practice that kind of, I don't know, having just a little bit more attention on

00:52:24.220 the way we think about stuff, it would actually make a tremendous difference. It would be a huge

00:52:29.600 difference if just that little bit could be added to our thinking process. Well, I agree with you

00:52:34.740 completely. I think coming, and this is where perhaps the wokeness comes back into it. The

00:52:40.420 problem is, as with your experience in the Scientology world, there are punishments for

00:52:46.200 doing so. And I'll give you, you know, it's a controversial example, but an important one

00:52:51.140 nonetheless. You know, the George Floyd systemic racism, et cetera, or BLM, let's say, right?

00:52:56.760 the narrative doesn't necessarily match reality.

00:53:01.160 So if you're an unarmed black person,

00:53:03.580 you're four times more likely to be killed by lightning

00:53:05.900 than you are by a police officer, right?

00:53:08.420 But that isn't necessarily how the conversation

00:53:11.940 plays out in the media.

00:53:15.600 And then I'm being very gentle about it, right?

00:53:20.300 Or BLM, let's say you could do the critical thinking,

00:53:22.960 which is what we did when BLM became a big thing.

00:53:25.340 we went on the website we read the things that they say they want to do defund the police abolish

00:53:30.700 capitalism uh whatever reform the nuclear family requirement whatever as they say that's right

00:53:36.400 the moment we raised that as like maybe we shouldn't do all of this we got kicked out of

00:53:41.060 our last studio which is why we're here right so when you know that no i well we don't we don't

00:53:47.880 talk about it too much because we're not really that bothered by it in the sense that we've landed

00:53:51.620 on our feet. I'm using the example as in you're asking people to think critically at a time when

00:53:58.640 a lot of things are filled with very powerful narratives where the punishment for even thinking

00:54:04.760 about it differently, let alone speaking out in public, is so, so harsh. And so I think a lot of

00:54:11.620 people don't think critically about things, not because they're stupid or incapable of critical

00:54:16.360 thinking, but actually I think a lot of people now, the world that we live in now, don't think

00:54:20.820 critically about things because they know where that leads i think that that is i think there's

00:54:26.400 some truth to that certainly you know bad consequences uh are a problem i think you're

00:54:32.040 actually commenting on the more culty aspect of our society like what that divisiveness has sort

00:54:37.480 of created is that my way or the highway right us versus them kind of mentality and the fact that

00:54:44.200 that's instilled in us to the degree that it is at this point is what is i think the biggest threat

00:54:50.820 it's not even the content that we're arguing about.

00:54:53.380 It's the fact that we are so us versus them about it.

00:54:56.700 You know, this is, it's just, it's so frustrating, isn't it?

00:55:02.200 To see it play out this way.

00:55:05.140 And this is why I rail against these platforms

00:55:07.880 because they're the ones who kind of are creating it, right?

00:55:11.940 I mean, you got the social dilemma,

00:55:13.300 you got the whole social media problem.

00:55:15.220 So mechanically, this is how it's created.

00:55:17.860 unfortunately we're kind of built for this yeah right or you know tribalism tribalism right the

00:55:28.640 the social hierarchies the the you know thinking that way organizing ourselves that way you know

00:55:34.680 we're kind of our own worst enemy in some ways on this um but you know it is what it is so you

00:55:43.180 mentioned for example the blm thing well i you know i hear you because i had a show going uh as

00:55:49.620 one of the shows i was doing on my podcast and i lost somebody because they didn't really understand

00:55:55.420 what i was saying about blm too you know because i was saying a lot of similar similar things

00:56:00.340 i went i said exactly what you just said actually kk i went to their website i looked at what it

00:56:05.560 said i talked about that i said yeah i said hey there's more here than than meets the eye

00:56:12.400 And this whole defund the police thing is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life.

00:56:16.860 So I took a stand on that on my channel, too, knowing that I was going to lose people, knowing I was going to lose viewers, didn't know I was going to lose a co-host on one of my favorite shows that we were doing, but I did.

00:56:28.920 And that really sucked.

00:56:31.060 So I hear you on that.

00:56:32.860 It's very, very divisive out there.

00:56:36.300 As far as the critical thinking, because I think we got onto this from the critical thinking aspect of this.

00:56:43.320 Yes, it can be scary to step up.

00:56:45.600 Yes, it can be scary to ask questions, to speak out.

00:56:49.580 And you have to choose your battles.

00:56:51.240 This is something I've definitely had to learn over the years

00:56:53.420 because I used to battle everybody on everything.

00:56:56.020 You wouldn't know that, would you, Mike?

00:56:59.560 And it was actually on Reddit of all places that I finally,

00:57:03.640 somebody pointed out, well, you got to pick your battles,

00:57:06.840 but whatever, you do you.

00:57:07.860 And I suddenly was like, oh, I guess I am kind of wasting some time here, aren't I?

00:57:12.400 And so there is that aspect to it, too. And there's also the other aspect to this, which I've been thinking about lately, which is, in the real world, when you talk to martial arts masters, when you talk to people who really know what they're talking about when it comes to fighting, one for one for one, I don't know about your experience, but mine has literally been 100%.

00:57:37.160 what should I do if I, if, if somebody approaches me, if somebody wants to fight me, if, if I'm

00:57:43.320 confronted, the answer a hundred percent of the time run, don't engage. Why? Why? Right. What's

00:57:53.100 the point? So there's that. No, I agree. I agree with that on an individual level, but I think

00:58:00.980 where I would strongly disagree is that that is, that can be scaled up to societal. So

00:58:06.860 So so you can say if if a guy who doesn't like you, who is a Nazi, comes up to you and starts a fight, run away.

00:58:15.020 If Nazi Germany invades your country, maybe you need to do something different. Right.

00:58:19.060 And to me, these large scale societal movements are much more in that sort of category.

00:58:24.860 They are civilizational threats, in my view. Right.

00:58:28.440 I agree with you. And that's actually why I harp so much on the social media platforms and the cable news networks.

00:58:35.580 I look at those as causative agents in those societal systemic problems.

00:58:42.920 But they're big, you know, they're too big for any one of us to do anything about.

00:58:48.480 And so the conversation, unfortunately, ends up, you know, kind of bopping back and forth between the big picture problem.

00:58:56.500 Well, what do I do about it?

00:58:58.320 You know, and the back and forth of that.

00:59:00.680 yeah it's because the thing is with these social media companies is you're aware that they're

00:59:09.020 manipulating and it's come to the point now where even the executives say that they don't give their

00:59:15.060 kids a smartphone exactly exactly the social dilemma was very enlightening and uh and opened

00:59:23.900 up a lot of of uh very interesting doors for me in terms of understanding what social media is doing

00:59:29.260 to us. Because

00:59:31.060 it's leveraging the same kinds

00:59:33.580 of control mechanisms that are

00:59:35.440 used in cults.

00:59:37.760 Right? Attention

00:59:38.880 is the commodity.

00:59:41.140 So they want your attention.

00:59:42.880 So they're going to manipulate your attention,

00:59:46.420 your interest,

00:59:47.600 to keep your attention, to keep

00:59:49.280 those eyeballs on the screen.

00:59:51.360 You think you're just

00:59:53.420 viewing your wall, your Facebook wall.

00:59:55.460 This is just what your friends have posted.

00:59:58.100 Uh-uh.

00:59:59.260 That's not everything your friends have posted.

01:00:01.960 It's what Facebook's algorithms have selected to show you.

01:00:07.780 And then there's, of course, the problem with the advertisements,

01:00:10.400 where the advertising, and this is really where things get nefarious,

01:00:13.440 is where targeted advertisements are used to actually manipulate thinking.

01:00:19.300 Political ads is where this comes out most obviously.

01:00:23.480 But then people miss that it's actually part of every advertising model.

01:00:27.580 sales and marketing and advertising is mental manipulation and when you're using mental

01:00:35.080 manipulation to change hearts and minds ideologically so as to create these partisan

01:00:41.040 camps whether it's on social issues or straight politics now you're doing something that nobody

01:00:46.420 ever asked you to do and nobody signed up for nobody signed up for so on social media platforms

01:00:52.760 to be manipulated, but that's actually what's happening on those platforms 24 seven. So to that

01:00:59.760 degree, there's a lack of informed consent. You know, there's these things I mentioned earlier

01:01:03.700 in a sort of stumbly way of, you know, if you don't know what you're getting into and these

01:01:09.040 people are doing things to you that you never asked for and never wanted, that's where things

01:01:14.360 get destructive. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Chris, listen, we could talk for hours and I've

01:01:20.120 certainly really enjoyed it. I imagine we both have. Uh, but we, we got to ask you our final

01:01:24.720 question, uh, which is, uh, what is the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be?

01:01:30.400 Oh boy. Such a good question. Um,

01:01:34.520 I think in all seriousness, I don't know that we're talking about the importance of critical

01:01:41.220 thinking education enough. We talk about it at a sort of a surface veneer level, but we don't

01:01:47.680 really dig in. It's sort of like police reform. You can make some surface veneer changes that

01:01:53.600 might, you know, sort of sound good, but aren't going to really make any practical difference.

01:01:58.000 And you can do that with education. Well, we need to teach critical thinking.

01:02:02.440 Yeah, but what does that mean? How? You know, how exactly? How do we do this? And how do we

01:02:09.460 actually break it down grade by grade, piece by piece, so that it's not just something that is

01:02:16.320 offered as an elective at college. It's something that needs to be instilled in people that not what

01:02:23.440 to think, how to think, right? From early, early, early ages. But if it's not done right, it just

01:02:30.840 becomes another level of indoctrination. And that's the hard part about it.

01:02:35.560 Chris, it's been absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much. If people want to find your work,

01:02:41.340 Ironically enough, online, where is the best place to do that?

01:02:44.780 Yes. You can look me up on YouTube on my channel, which is just my name, Chris Shelton.

01:02:49.760 I identify or put myself out there as a critical thinker, critical thinker at large.

01:02:54.760 And you can find my book, Scientology, Ada Zinu,

01:03:00.820 An Insider's Guide to What Scientology is Really All About, on Amazon,

01:03:04.660 where I sell that on Bezos' authoritarian platform.

01:03:10.740 I have self-published, and it's an audio book, e-book, and hard copy book.

01:03:15.560 So you can get it there.

01:03:17.000 And this book, by the way, is not my Scientology experience.

01:03:20.760 Most Scientology books you're going to find out there are a memoir or a breakdown.

01:03:25.060 And those are fine.

01:03:25.860 There's nothing wrong with that.

01:03:27.080 I'm not ragging on that.

01:03:28.480 I'm differentiating that.

01:03:29.720 That's not what this is.

01:03:30.720 This is an actual critical analysis of Scientology.

01:03:35.960 So if you really want to know what it's all about, what the beliefs are,

01:03:39.520 who L. Ron Hubbard was,

01:03:41.660 why the hell they still have tax exemption.

01:03:45.140 It's all in the book.

01:03:46.620 So you're not ragging on those other books,

01:03:48.620 but yours is a lot better.

01:03:50.040 I get the message.

01:03:52.860 No, I really want everybody to read all the books,

01:03:55.440 but I just said,

01:03:56.740 I just like to make sure people know

01:03:57.980 it's a lot more than just my story.

01:03:59.940 Yeah, of course.

01:04:01.060 Chris, thank you so much for coming on

01:04:02.740 and thank you for watching at home.

01:04:04.640 We will see you very soon

01:04:06.060 with another brilliant interview or our show,

01:04:08.260 all of them going out at 7pm UK time.

01:04:10.980 Take care and see you soon, guys.

01:04:13.740 We hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview.

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TRIGGERnometry - July 07, 2021

Cults, Scientology, Wokeness with Chris Shelton

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